1959-07-17

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of Ihe Opposiiion):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he would comment on a Canadian Press report of this morning to the effect that there was a meeting between the Prime Minister, the Minister of Labour and Canadian Labour Congress officers early this month to discuss labour representation on the unemployment insurance advisory committee, and that at that meeting the Canadian Labour Congress received certain assurances regarding future Canadian Labour Congress recommendations for such appointments.


Right Hon. J. G. Diafenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, there was a meeting as stated. The stand taken by the government was that under the law as it exists there shall be consultation with labour organizations in respect of appointments to be made. It was made very clear that in the future, as in the past, this government will at all times consult labour organizations with a view to having from those organizations the names suggested by them as worthy of appointment. But consultation does not mean determination. Consultation means that the names submitted will receive the attention of the governor in council. Consultation means consideration of the suggestions made, but does not imply a determination of the issue by reason of the names suggested.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Labour a supplementary question based upon the interesting observations of the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that the government has now decided to consult labour with regard to its appointments-


John George Diefenbaker: And we have done so regularly.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Prime Minister says that the government has done so regularly. May I ask if it is a fact that George Burt, a former member of the unemployment insurance advisory committee, has 66968-9-392
declined reappointment; and can the minister say what progress is being made with regard to the appointment of representatives of the congress and the Canadian and Catholic Confederation of Labour on the advisory committee of the unemployment insurance committee representing labour?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon. member's question, I have no comments to make nor have I any information with respect to the first part of his question.
Concerning the second part of his question, all nominations have been made for appointment to the unemployment insurance commission including those made by representatives of the Canadian and Catholic Confederation of Labour and those made by the Canadian Labour Congress.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask a supplementary question. Does that mean that the united automobile workers, through Mr. George Burt, will not be represented?


Michael Starr: Mr. George Burt's name was not submitted by the Canadian Labour Congress.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My question was that the united automobile workers will not be represented.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, there is no particular segment of representation. All workers are represented by those who are on this commission.



NOVA SCOTIA-REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF BENEFITS FOR UNEMPLOYED MINERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. R. McWilliam (Northumberland-Miramichi):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Has the minister considered, and reached a decision on, the matter of extending unemployment insurance benefits for unemployed miners in Nova Scotia?


Michael Starr: The only indication of anything of this nature from Nova Scotia was a few weeks ago, when I received notification that certain miners were laid off for two days because of a breakdown. Of course those who were eligible under the act received unemployment insurance.
6192	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry NORTHLAND NAVIGATION COMPANY



ANNOUNCEMENT OF SETTLEMENT OF STRIKE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Is he in a position to confirm the newspaper dispatch in this morning's Globe and Mail about a settlement of the strike of Northland Navigation Company Limited? Is he in a position to give any indications as to when the service might be resumed?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, hon. members of the house will be pleased to learn that the dispute which has halted the west coast shipping operations of Northland Navigation Company Limited has been settled. Yesterday evening I was advised by Mr. G. R. Currie of the Vancouver office of my department, who was appointed to mediate the dispute, that representatives of the company and the national association of marine engineers had signed a collective agreement, and that the marine engineers, deck officers and longshoremen were resuming work immediately.
The final meeting at which the settlement was reached was under the chairmanship of Mr. Currie, and throughout the negotiations my officer had the co-operation of representatives of the Canadian Labour Congress, the British Columbia federation of labour and other trade union organizations.



PUBLIC SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hubert Badanai (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Finance arising out of a letter I received just a few moments ago from the letter carriers' association in my constituency. Will the minister inform the house whether the government intends to put into effect an adjustment of the salaries of civil servants in the immediate future, especially in view of the fact that income tax increases came into effect on July 1?


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I answered that question in the house some days ago. There has been no change in the situation since.


Hubert Badanai: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Does the government intend to take this matter into consideration in the foreseeable future, if not in the immediate future?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I pointed out, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance has


received a report from the civil service commission, and this matter is under discussion between the civil service commission and the minister. The submission of that report to the minister follows the terms of the statute.



TEXTILES-DISCUSSIONS RESPECTING IMPORTS FROM JAPAN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether he would comment on a Reuters' dispatch of this morning from Tokyo to the effect that the Japanese trade minister announced today that the Canadian government had informed the Japanese government that it could not agree to the Japanese plans for resuming exports of spun rayon made-up goods to Canada shortly.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I think probably I am familiar with that matter. It will be recalled that I made an announcement in the house some days ago concerning the decision of the Japanese government to issue no more permits for the time being for export to Canada of certain articles of clothing of spun rayon and similar materials. The matter has been in that position since, and one of the purposes in suspending the issuance of further export permits by the Japanese government was to allow time for discussion between the representatives of the two governments in relation to over-all ceilings and quotas to be applied by the Japanese government to their exports, with a view to assuring that the marketings in Canada would proceed on an orderly basis. It was clear at that time that exports to Canada of articles of this type had gone beyond what could be regarded by any person as orderly. These discussions have been proceeding in the meantime and are still continuing.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware that two plants of Canadian Cottons have closed, one in Hamilton and one in Cornwall, putting 2,000 people out of work?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is a fact that in some lines of the textile industry, because after all the textile industry really is a group of industries, there has been some further decline in production. As against that, there are some lines of domestic textile production that have been rising. I will say this, that this government has done a good deal for the textile industry in all its aspects which, if it

had been done earlier, would have been more effective in helping the industry meet its problems.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the minister if he remembers the statements he made in this house and that his supporters made during the campaign, that they would put an end to this stoppage of work in the textile industry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, any resemblance between the words just now ascribed by the hon. member for Laurier to myself or, I am sure, to any other person on this side of the house and the statements that were made is, in the language of the movies, purely coincidental. This is what was said by us when in opposition. We drew the attention of the former government to the increasingly serious plight of the textile industry. We asked that government what it was going to do, and we could never find out.


Lionel Chevrier: You said you would put a stop to it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Finally they got to the point of referring to the tariff board for examination-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not like to interrupt the minister, but I remind him he is going beyond the question, which related purely to something which he said when he was in opposition, and which was a question that was not in order in any event. I should not like to see a debate develop at this stage.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I thought the question was of a very general nature, but if you think the answer I was giving was too broad I shall confine my answer to saying that what members on this side of the house-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: -who are now
members of the government, said on the occasions referred to by the hon. member in his question, has been carried out fully and is still being carried out fully.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I rise on a point of order. I point out to Your Honour that you made a ruling and gave a direction to the Minister of Finance, who has set a very bad example for all of us this morning by disregarding that ruling.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, you indicated to me-


Mr. Speaker:: Is the minister speaking to the point of order?
66968-9-392J
Inquiries of the Ministry


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Speaker. You indicated to me that you thought my answer should be more confined. I proceeded to give a more confined answer, and I do not see why my hon. friend should raise a point of order when I am adhering so strictly to the direction of the Chair. As far as giving an example is concerned, I do not flatter myself that I could set an example that the hon. member for Essex East would follow.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, out of deference to you I will abide by your ruling, but I shall reserve discussion of this matter for another occasion.



STATEMENT ON REPORTED REMARKS BY U.S. SECRETARY OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, on Monday morning last, July 13, the hon. member for Essex East asked me to comment on a press interview given by Mr. Ezra Benson, Secretary of Agriculture for the United States. The Canadian Press dispatch covering this first appeared, to my knowledge, in the Montreal Star of Monday evening. I have a copy of that report here, and I was surprised at some of the statements attributed to Mr. Benson in this dispatch. I communicated with him by telephone on Wednesday last in order to find out whether the report was accurate, and to find out exactly what he did say, as well as to discuss matters which were covered in the press dispatch.
Perhaps I had better read what the dispatch says:
However, he made It clear that he was deeply concerned over what he described as a rather restrictive attitude by the Canadian government in some farm products, particularly turkeys.
American turkey growers were "quite upset" over what amounted to a virtual Canadian embargo on turkey imports, he said. The U.S. now are trying to get Canada to relax curbs and Mr. Benson was hopeful something would be done soon.
On the telephone Mr. Benson said that he had not used the word "embargo" at any time, and did not think he had used the word "upset". What he did say was that he had just returned from Europe, he had told the reporter, and on his return had found some reports from United States turkey growers who were concerned about exports to Canada. I should like to say, Mr. Speaker, that the United States and ourselves have had some discussions on the subject of the turkey import control we have in effect in Canada, and I think that the United States is now reasonably happy with this situation.
In connection with our proposed deficiency payments on hogs the newspaper report

Inquiries of the Ministry states as follows, and this is as though it were quoting Mr. Benson:
The U.S. also was concerned over reports that the Canadian government was in the midst of turning its price support on hogs into a system of deficiency payments, covering farmers on their losses but letting them do all their own marketing.
Benson said this deficiency payments system may "greatly stimulate" Canadian hog production and provide a "real threat" to American hog producers competing against Canadian hogs in the American market.
"These Canadian hogs could depress our own markets," he said, adding that the U.S. had a heavy hog surplus of its own. American prices had been falling and the U.S. Agriculture Department had issued "warnings" to producers to limit production.
Mr. Benson told me that these were not his statements but that they were statements of farm organizations in the United States, particularly the American farm bureau, which had made representations to this effect to him; but that he did not make the statements to the reporter and that they should not be attributed to him. I explained to Mr. Benson that our deficiency payment plan, rather than stimulating hog production, would be likely to have the opposite effect and that it was designed to bring production and consumption more into balance in Canada.
The only other matter that was dealt with in this report was in connection with wheat, and the newspaper report ends by quoting Mr. Benson to this effect:
"I still think that Canadian production is too high," he said.
I pointed out to Mr. Benson that Canadian reduction in acreage was greater than United States reduction, taking any five-year period such as 1935-39 or 1940-45 and comparing it with the last four to five years and that as a result of our reduction in acreage the figure had come down from 28,726,000 acres in 1940 to 20,899,000 acres last year.
I think there is no question but that the Americans are in grave difficulties, as Mr. Benson has said on many occasions, over the amount of wheat that is being produced there. Of course we have had, as everyone knows, a considerable amount of difficulty over the production of wheat in this country. However, I do not think there is any serious difficulty between us in that regard. The report on the meeting which was held in Washington in May, which the Minister of Trade and Commerce made to the house, indicated that with regard to the disposal of these surplus stocks of wheat we are now in a very much better position than has ever been the case as far as consultation and co-ordination of the disposal programs are concerned.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Will the minister indicate to the house whether, in
[Mr. Harkness.l
his telephone conversation with Mr. Benson, he was able to ascertain whether the representations made by the American farm bureau for countervailing duties against Canadian pork products would likely succeed?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Naturally we did not go into that matter, but I think there would be no reason for any countervailing duties. Therefore I do not anticipate that any will be put into effect.



AIRPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. It is a fact that the government has decided to build one 5,000 foot runway for the Sherbrooke airport, when the plans made by the former government provided for two runways 6,000 feet long?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is partly right. I explained the plans to a very large, serious and constructively-minded delegation that met with me in my office yesterday, together with six members of parliament from the surrounding area. I told them that present plans call for one 5,000-foot runway, but that the department is making a submission to treasury board recommending that the runway be extended to 6,000 feet. I am very hopeful that treasury board will pass that recommendation.
Regarding the matter of the former government's promise to build two runways, I explained to the delegation that it is the policy of this government when we build our airports to build one runway at a time, and as soon as it is demonstrated that one runway will be inadequate to handle the traffic which offers at the airport, then we are only too glad to build a second runway. This delegation agreed this was a very sensible point of view and method of procedure. I have assured them that just as soon as it is indicated that this one runway will not handle the traffic that offers at the airport, we will be very glad to build a second runway.
I was interested also to learn in studying this matter that the promise made by the former government to build two runways at this airport was made just prior to the 1957 election, when the former government were making lavish promises in an attempt to avert the landslide which eventually overtook them.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. There seems to me to be a tendency to go into debate that properly should take place on the estimates. If members wish to get on with the estimates they had better observe the appropriate procedure at this stage.


Lionel Chevrier: I was looking for a little clarification but the minister's answer, while it clarifies certain things, was highly political in nature.



THREE RIVERS, QUE.  STATEMENT ON CONSTRUC- TION OF RUNWAY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: May I
direct another question to the minister on another matter. Following an announcement on the French television network on Wednesday evening that the government has decided to build an airport at Three Rivers, will the minister tell the house the nature of the airport that is to be built, whether plans and specifications are ready and when it will be completed?


George Harris Hees: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The plans are for one 6,000-foot runway. We expect to call for tenders for the construction of that runway in the very near future, and hope to complete it next year.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Frank Howard: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. I hope notice of it reached him in sufficient time. Can the minister inform the house as to the progress of the investigation by the combines investigation branch into the operations of Pacific Press Limited in Vancouver?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: appreciate the hon. gentleman's courtesy in giving me notice of this question. In answer I can only say that the matter is still under inquiry. I refer him to the answer I gave on April 30 of this year, which appears at page 3183 of Hansard, in which I said that I was not in a position to give the house any information regarding the state of the investigation except that I had not yet received any report from the restrictive trade practices commission, but that if and when I received such a report it would be published, as required by the act, in the usual way.
Inquiries of the Ministry ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE



STATEMENT AS TO CO-OPERATION BETWEEN CANADIAN AND UNITED KINGDOM POLICE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Edmund Davie Fulton: Yesterday the hon. member for Ottawa West, as reported at page 6101 of Hansard, inquired why the R.C.M.P. did not send relevant information regarding a person about whom the United Kingdom authorities had made inquiries by cable or wire photo instead of by air mail.
I have made inquiries of the R.C.M.P., and I am advised by them as follows. After receiving a cable from the United Kingdom authories giving them four different names and asking for whatever assistance the R.C.M.P. could supply, the R.C.M.P. supplied the name of Podola as a possible suspect and advised London immediately by cable of a description of this man. On the same day a copy of Podola's fingerprints and a photograph were forwarded by air mail. The authorities of the R.C.M.P. point out that, as can be readily understood, one cannot always depend upon a photograph transmitted by wire to be sufficiently good for police identification in a case such as this, as it cannot be guaranteed that a picture transmitted in such a manner will be free of distortion. For this reason the R.C.M.P. followed their usual practice in forwarding the picture and fingerprints by air mail.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: In view of his well known interest in this matter may I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether he has any comment to make on the report that the Ford Motor Company has now obtained control of the Ford Motor Company of Canada through stock purchase?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I have not seen that report as yet, but I will look into it.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Is the minister aware that some 140 employees of the C.N.R. have been laid off

Inquiries of the Ministry at the shops in Quebec, Charny and Chicoutimi during the last 12 months, and that employees with as much as 39 years of service were among them?
Has he taken cognizance of an undertaking which he gave last year that these employees who had lost their jobs would be taken back, which commitment was communicated to the employees by the Conservative members of parliament of the area in a letter dated June 18, 1958.


George Harris Hees: I will be glad to look into the matter.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Trinity-Conception asked me a question relative to the regulations governing the culling of salted cod fish in Newfoundland. In reply to the hon. member's question I said that as I understood the question the culling of salted cod in Newfoundland was the responsibility of the provincial government, but that I would make a further reply later.
The situation, Mr. Speaker, is that cullers or graders of salted cod in Newfoundland are employees of the buyers of the product. Under the Newfoundland culling regulations originally promulgated by the commission of government, cullers are licensed. The system had been carried on by the federal Department of Fisheries following union, but the Department of Fisheries had no real supervision over their activities in the culling of salted cod.
During the past number of years the department has been concerned about the legality of its functions relative to the culling regulations. Accordingly, in consultation with the provincial government authorities it was established that the legal responsibility for enforcement of the Newfoundland culling regulations belonged to the province.
The federal department therefore is unable to assume further responsibility with respect to the Newfoundland culling regulations. The federal Department of Fisheries is, of course, continuing its responsibilities with respect to the inspection for export of Newfoundland salted cod, and has no intention of withdrawing from this legal responsibility. In the case of the first culling or grading, however, this is a matter between seller and buyer and comes, as I have said, within the authority of the province.
The provincial authorities asked the federal Department of Fisheries recently if we would
[Mr. Chevrier.)
administer the culling regulations on their behalf. After careful examination the provincial authorities were informed that to enforce the regulations properly and legally would require a large staff, and with the present organization of the federal Department of Fisheries in Newfoundland we could not undertake to administer the culling regulations on behalf of the province and at the same time carry out our responsibilities for the inspection and grading of salted cod for export.



MR. MARTIN, ESSEX EAST    CLARIFICATION OF REMARK IN DEBATE ON JULY 16

Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. member for York South, who has pointed out that last night I referred to the provincial treasurer in Ontario as one who came from northern Ontario, and did not properly identify him as coming from the constituency in which is situated the town of Dunnville. In fairness to the provincial treasurer I want to make that clear.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twillingale):: I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Transport if he intends to "stop trampling on crops and gardens"?


George Harris Hees: I have never started trampling on crops and gardens.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Has the minister's attention not been drawn to an editorial in the Calgary Albertan of Wednesday, July 15 entitled "Hees Tramples on Crops and Gardens"? I will send it to the minister.


George Harris Hees: I have seen it. I have had a great deal of correspondence with the editor of that paper and explained in detail the stand taken by the department on this matter which I consider to be very fair. But in this democracy, thank heaven, there can always be a difference of opinion, and one exists in this particular case.
(Translation):



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. Ralelle (Lafonlaine):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. I gave him notice of it

on the 15th instant. I should like to know why no signs have been posted around La-fontaine park, between Gauthier, Sherbrooke, Papineau and Marquette streets, stating that entrance may be restricted or prohibited in accordance with regulations governing national defence property.
Ever since June 3, Mr. Speaker, I have been trying to get that information from all departments; but I now find that I have to inquire from the Minister of National Defence.


Hon. Leon Balcer (Solicitor General):: shall take the question as a notice.


J.-Georges Ratelle: Could the minister supply me with full information about this before the end of the current session?


Léon Balcer: I shall do my best, Mr. Speaker.
(Text):



RESEARCH


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether this question should be directed to the Minister of Transport, the Minister of National Defence or someone else. Could any minister tell me the circumstances in which it is alleged that research grants to support the great lakes research vessel, Port Dauphine, have been turned down by Ottawa?


George Harris Hees: No, Mr. Speaker.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

[Stage Direction]
Administration services-
186. Departmental administration, $697,289.
(Translation):
Mr. Dumas:: Does the minister intend to make a statement, even a short one?


Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Chairman, I should like at this time, before we proceed with consideration of the estimates of my department, to make a few remarks, first in relation to the department itself and to matters bearing on its services to industry, and second in relation to our mineral industry.
17, 1953	6197
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
By now all hon. members have had an opportunity to peruse the minutes of proceedings and evidence of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters in connection with our estimates for the current fiscal year. Votes and Proceedings No. 87 of May 26 last contains the standing committee's summing up of the evidence they heard and their conclusions and recommendations.
It is not my intention to quote at length from this report but I should like to direct attention in particular to a paragraph which appears under its general section. This paragraph reads, and 1 quote:
"In almost all fields of national scientific endeavour, this department should have led and should lead the way . . . Both the people and those responsible for policy in Canada have been slow to realize the urgent need for expenditure and leadership in this field. The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, your committee insists, must be recognized as a vitally important one, not one of inferior significance. The scientific function of the department cannot any longer be circumscribed by caution, hesitancy and lack of support. It is imperative that all branches of the department embark on an accelerated program of expansion, and planning for expansion; and that the provision of the needed money, staff and facilities be an immediate consideration of the government."
(Text):
May I also quote the last paragraph of the general section which reads:
Geography forces Canada to take a leading part in any northern matter, whether civil or military. This is an obligation which we cannot evade, but which we cannot fufil effectively without adequate research. For the effective development of the north a major expansion of research is essential. Without thorough and continuing research any development in the north is certain to be much more costly and may easily be misdirected.
I may state at this point that I am very pleased with the interest the members of the standing committee have shown in the activities of our department. It is abundantly clear from the tabled report from which I have just quoted that they put much time and earnest thought into the drafting of their conclusions. It is clear also that in its tasks in hand and possibly more so in those that lie ahead, my department has and will have an integral part to play in keeping Canada to the forefront in those important fields of science and engineering that bear particularly on resources development.
The standing committee places the greatest importance on the need for the activities in which the department is engaged. This need, it states in effect, is becoming so great and in some respects so urgent as to call for a major expansion of staff and facilities to cope with the requirements.
6198	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
In the evidence we gave to the standing committee we stated that over the next five years we shall need an additional staff of 1,440 including 305 seasonal employees to handle our assignments. We now have a staff of 3,785 including seasonals; thus the increase would bring the total up to 5,225 by the end of five years. By far the largest increase would be in our surveys and mapping branch, that for the Canadian hydrographic service alone being 490 continuing and 40 seasonal employees. The geological survey of Canada would be next with an estimated increase of 200 continuing and 175 seasonal employees. Our estimate of the additional staff that will be required is strongly endorsed by the standing committee; in fact they have recommended even larger increases in some cases, and most of these projections, I may state, seem more likely to be subject to upward rather than downward revision.
In a rapidly expanding economy such as we have in Canada the need for research is going to increase, and at an accelerated rate, according to present indications. As we look back over the 14 years that have passed since the war we marvel at the growth of the Canadian economy; yet if I were given to the use of trite expressions I would say, "We haven't seen anything yet". This, translated into more decorous phraseology, means that so far we have had little more than a glimpse of our growth potential.
(Translation):
Some of the major new projects we are undertaking this year will bear out what I have said concerning the role we have to play. Quite apart from their importance in other respects, they point up the urgency of much of our efforts-urgency in the sense that they are being undertaken to keep ahead of the requirements of industry or other urgent national demands and with the attention other countries are giving to scientific investigations.
One such project is the work we are undertaking on our polar continental shelf, which this year is simply exploratory to obtain an idea of the general character of the shelf, the equipment needed for such a project and the best type of transportation. Even though it is exploratory in character, it has already provided us with information that has caused us to revise our concepts of the area. The work to date appears to confirm the potentialities of the area as a source of petroleum, and further investigation will be aimed, in part, to determine whether these favourable conditions extend out over the shelf.

a geological reconnaissance of Banks and Victoria islands; the other in the Northwest Territories is a reconnaissance of a large area lying mainly west and south of Coppermine in a project we have named Operation Coppermine. In the Yukon project, we are commencing work this year in Operation Pelly, which is a reconnaissance of the southeastern portion of the territory.
I should explain here that in our geological work we have been giving top priority to reconnaissance projects since 1952, and we have already covered a total area of approximately half a million square miles, mainly in Northwest Territories and British Columbia. This is exclusive of the work in hand this year. The decision to give such projects top priority was mainly in an endeavour to complete the reconnaissance mapping of Canada in the foreseeable future and to keep abreast of the requirements of industry. A very important side aim of the work has been to develop low cost and efficient methods of mapping the areas concerned. By the use of helicopters and supporting fixed-wing aircraft, we have been able to cover as much ground in one season on these projects as would have required 20 to 25 years by the former methods and at a much lower cost.
In furtherance of our endeavours to reduce the cost and increase the efficiency, we made a test last year of the use of Piper Super Cub planes, equipped with wheels designed for landing on unprepared terrain. The tests proved so successful that the planes will be put to more extensive use this year on our geological reconnaissance of Banks and Victoria islands. The geologists will be able to make their observations from the planes and to land within easy walking distances of the places where samples or detailed observations are needed. We now have some reason to believe that, where this specially equipped plane can be used, the work can be done much more cheaply and efficiently than by use of the helicopter.
As the hon. members are probably aware, Mr. Chairman, my department has been given considerable attention to land-use mapping. The importance of such work in a rapidly growing country like Canada need not be stressed. The projects are being carried out in co-operation with the provinces concerned, our work this year being in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia. In another project, our geographical branch is
17, 1959	6199
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys working with the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources on several resources surveys connected with that department's services to the Eskimos. The work this year is in the Mackenzie river delta and in the Great Whale river area on the east coast of Hudson bay.
In the field of metallurgical research, we have undertaken work recently on several interesting projects. One of these affords a typical example of our aid to industry.
It concerns the recent announcement by the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada Limited of its plans to proceed with the construction of an electric smelter for the production of pig iron. This is part of a long-range plan to set up an integrated steel industry in western Canada. The company has been accumulating large tonnages of iron oxide as a by-product from its roasting operations. For years it was felt that the impurities in the oxide would be harmful to steel made from it. Research in our laboratories showed that a satisfactory steel meeting all the requirements for structural steel could, in fact, be produced and the company was thus in a position to proceed with the project.
In quite a separate project, we have commenced basic research on nickel-alloy systems in order to increase our knowledge of these types of alloys which are essential to the efficient design of missile components and also of modern thermo power plants.
(Text):
In reference to these and other research projects in the mines branch I should like to direct your attention to certain of the conclusions reached by the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, and I quote:
The research in this branch should be concentrated on the long range projects. The many and varied problems requiring immediate research should not continue to engage 90 per cent, as it does now, of the resources of this branch. This "first-aid" research should be assumed by private industry. This would free branch resources to deal with such important problems, requiring much research, as developing new alloys to meet the needs, for instance, of supersonic flight, extraction of heavy oils (tar sands) etc.
Speaking at the annual convention of the prospectors and developers association in Toronto on March 3 last Dr. van Steenburgh, our director general of scientific services, stated:
If a change of emphasis is made-
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From applied to basic research, that is.
-it will mean that industry will need to either undertake more of its own applied research or to have it done by provincial research councils or by private research organizations. What is needed is a strengthening of the provincial research councils; that and the establishment of a few research institutes similar in nature to those organized in the United States.
Quoting further from his remarks, he stated;
-to do this would require sizeable funds to provide the initial buildings and equipment. In the United States, memorial bequests from wealthy patrons have been largely instrumental in solving the problem. In other countries it is being solved by co-operative arrangements between government and industry, a policy similar in some respects to that followed in establishing the provincial research councils.
Actually the choice seems to be between doing more and more basic and long term research at the government level and in the universities, or allowing Canada to lag in these fields of research to a dangerous degree. And here I should explain that I am not thinking simply in terms of research as it relates to the activities of my department, but of research in general.
We cannot, of course, allow our basic and long term research to lag to a dangerous degree. That, as I am sure hon. members will agree, could prove to be costly indeed, and not in terms of money alone. The only alternative appears to be for a much greater concentration of effort on basic and long term research at the government level. The question is, how can this be brought about?
Excellent research is being done by some of the large mining companies in Canada, but this is far from enough. To me the answer, in part at least, is for industry to give serious thought to the establishment of a research organization similar, for instance, to the Battelle institute in the United States. My suggestion is that industry provide the funds to establish such institutions, and perhaps also to finance the initial stages of their operations. The funds could be provided in different ways; possibly, for instance, in the form of contributions by individual companies or through such organizations as the Canadian metal mining association or the prospectors and developers association. If industry were to take such action it is possible that the federal government, with the consent of parliament, would be willing to either match the contributions from industry or at least contribute substantially to the establishment of such research institutions.
In so far as my own department is concerned, Mr. Chairman, their establishment, coupled with any enlargement of the facilities of the provincial research councils, would 

mean that we could devote a much greater proportion of our effort to basic and long term research, say 60 to 70 per cent of it or more. It would not mean, nor indeed would it be desirable, that we would discontinue research on problems of immediate interest to industry. Continuity of effort is an essential factor in work on these problems, and there could be no guarantee of such continuity in a research institute concerned not only with investigations bearing on mineral development but with the whole broad field of industrial research. Besides, much of our work is of benefit chiefly to small enterprises that are unable to finance or undertake their own research, and it is in the interests of the country as a whole that our facilities be used to aid them. It is important also that we continue our work on problems that are of concern to industry as a whole or to major segments of it. An example of this is the work of our mines branch on the economic processing of low grade ores. Usually the results of such work are of benefit to a number of companies rather than to a single company.
However, there are many time-consuming tests and investigations and numerous research problems that I am sure could be handled efficiently by organizations like the research institutes I have suggested should be established. We would then be free to devote a much greater proportion of our time to basic and long term research, and at the same time maintain the essential services to industry.
Turning now to our mineral industry, let us take a brief look at the status of the industry today in the Canadian economy and at the prospects it has in store. First, Mr. Chairman, I should like to draw your attention to the almost meteoric growth of our mineral industry during these post-war years. We are all aware that the industry has recorded remarkable expansion, but I venture to say that few of us realize that it has outstripped even the Canadian economy in rate of growth.
In its recent report the standing committee on mines, forests and waters drew attention to this fact. It pointed out that between 1947 and 1957 the index of physical volume of mineral production increased by 173 per cent while that of industry as a whole increased by 51 per cent.
We can gain an even better picture by using as our yardstick our gross national product at market prices. In 1946 it stood at $12 billion. By 1957 it has soared to $30 billion, an increase of 150 per cent.
At the same time the value of our mineral production quadrupled from $500 million to $2 billion, an increase of 300 per cent. And

even more astonishing is the fact, Mr. Chairman, that not only has the mineral industry outstripped the Canadian economy in rate of growth but, with the exception of construction, it has recorded a relative growth greater than that of any of Canada's other productive industries, including manufacturing, agriculture and lumbering.
Let me pause to illustrate this. Using 1946 as a base, we find that construction heads the list with a remarkable increase of 800 per cent. The mineral industry is second with a 320 per cent increase. Manufacturing, by far the greatest in volume, shows a rate of expansion of 177 per cent, and agriculture increased only 10 per cent.
Last year the mineral industry suffered its first setback since the close of world war II, but even at that the value of our mineral production at $2.1 billion was only 3 per cent below the all-time record of the preceding year. Our mineral industry is, as hon. members know, a major world supplier of metals and minerals and, as such, it felt the full impact of the weakening of world mineral markets and the twin evils of overproduction and price declines. Consequently the value of output of our principal base metals, copper, nickel, lead and zinc, as well as of iron ore, asbestos and crude petroleum, declined sharply.
Contributing to this setback were the discontinuation of the stockpiling program in the United States and the subsequent release of additional supplies of metals for industrial use; the imposition by that country of import quotas on lead and zinc, and of voluntary, followed by mandatory import restrictions on crude oil entering the mid-continent and western United States. These restrictions on oil, as you know, have since been lifted.
Over and above these difficulties, our mineral industry has faced increasing competition for world markets from Russia, particularly in asbestos, which is our chief industrial mineral. Partly as a result of this competition, our output of asbestos dropped off 10 per cent last year from the all-time high of over a million tons recorded in 1957.
You can readily see then, Mr. Chairman, that the over-all situation has not been conducive to the expenditure of large sums of money on exploration. Consequently in the past year or so there has been less activity in diamond drilling, less geophysical work, fewer claims staked, and less surface prospecting than in many a year. Lately, however, the picture has brightened. The general industrial pick-up, particularly in the United States, has already had a stimulating effect on the mining industry. Demand is strengthening, prices are improving and a general feeling of optimism pervades the industry.
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A development of great significance to the industry and to the whole Canadian economy is the increasing trend toward the processing of ores and their products here in Canada This is seen in recent company announcements which include the proposed construction of a $20 million to $25 million nickel refinery in northern Manitoba and an iron smelter at Kimberley, British Columbia. The construction of the iron smelter is the first stage in a $20 million project planned to produce pig iron, steel ingots, and rolled steel products to serve the rapidly growing markets of our western provinces. Industry is also considering again the construction of a zinc refinery in eastern Canada. At present we are shipping the zinc concentrates that we produce in eastern Canada to the United States and to European countries for refining, but mostly to the central and northeastern states.
Looking ahead, the prospects for our mineral industry are good. The effect of the general industrial pick-up, which has already made itself felt on the industry, gives every indication of continuing. Unemployment has dropped. Construction activity is reaching new levels, and markets show signs of continuing to strengthen. Moreover, populations round the world continue to grow, steadily increasing the potential consumption of metals.
(Translation):
That we in Canada possess huge mineral resources is well known. On the more immediate mineral horizon, we have several good prospects. These are, for instance, the rich copper and zinc deposits which have come to light in the Mattagami-Frotet lake area of western Quebec; the largely undeveloped copper and gold Chibougamau area; the great reserves of iron ore in Quebec and in Ontario, especially, either under development or awaiting development; and the extensive lead-zinc deposits of northeastern New Brunswick and at Pine Point in Northwest Territories.
These are only a few. Consider, too, the great unexplored areas of our northland where a handful of discoveries has even now indicated the richness of resources there, awaiting exploration and development.
Truly, we in Canada, have the wealth and the opportunities. It is up to us to make the most of both.
(Text):
I am certain, Mr. Chairman, the hon. members will agree that my department has a vital role to play in the development of this wealth and in providing these opportunities. I am, therefore, confident that the committee will see fit to approve the $4,511,783 increase
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys we are requesting for 1959-60, over the amount of $32,560,842 that we asked for in 1958-59.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys for this fiscal year were given a searching consideration at the standing committee of mines, forests and waters. Thirteen sittings of the committee were devoted to the study of this department's estimates. The directors of the various divisions of the department as well as the officials of the dominion coal board graciously answered the questions put to them by the members of the committee and they provided us with a lot of most useful information.
In our inquiries into all the items under this department we were able to appreciate that it is one of the best organized departments and that its staff is most competent. And at this time I would like to congratulate warmly all the directors, their assistants, their help, in short all those who belong to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys for the good work they are performing in the interest of the increasing development of our natural resources.
Since we have already devoted quite a long time to the consideration of these estimates in the standing committee of mines, forests and waters, and in view also of the fact that we have obtained in that committee all the information required, I assume that this committee does not intend to review each item in all its details. As far as I am concerned, I intend to be as brief as possible. My remarks will be along the line followed by the minister, that is to say I intend to speak firstly about the report which was tabled in the house on May 26 last, and then I would like to say a few words about the mining industry itself and point out, as did the minister, the problems and difficulties prevailing in this industry at the present time.
Mr. Chairman, while the report from the committee includes perhaps a few comments which might seem a little too strong, it contains many useful recommendations, and I feel that they will meet with the approval of all hon. members who sat on that committee. I was delighted to hear the minister say this morning that most of those recommendations would be carried out. Personally, I support most of them for I have always urged that something be done to step up the work of the department, and that it be voted all the funds it requires.
[Mr. Comtois.)

The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, with its present branches, was set up in the late fall of 1949 and put in operation some weeks later, on the 18th of January 1950, to be exact.
It has kept growing ever since. Each year it has taken on more staff and its budget allotment has increased considerably. In fact its net total estimated expenditure for the current fiscal year runs over $48 million.
Mr. Chairman, as a result, first, of mining activities in areas of known economic importance, especially since world war II, second, of the increased development rate of mineral resources throughout the country, especially during the period 1950 to 1958, and finally, of expanded prospecting and exploration in the northern regions of the provinces and in the territories, the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has had so much to do that, while it provided for all the immediate needs of industry, it found it practically impossible to spearhead development in all fields and throughout the country.
If we want to step up the economic development of Canadian mineral ressources and to provide more efficient services to the mining industry, we shall clearly have to attach more and more importance to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
For that purpose, the report of the committee on mines, forests and waters includes several useful recommendations which, in my opinion, the government should not fail to act upon.
Thus, it is obvious that the department should take on more staff. From 1950 to 1959, the number of employees rose from 1725 to 3761, or rather 3785, as the minister indicated this morning; that represents an increase of 118 per cent in ten years, or an average annual increase of 11.8 per cent. Considering the amount of work to be done, and if we want the department at least to maintain the high standards of efficiency it has reached in the last decade, the committee's recommendation that the number of employees be increased from 3761 or 3885 to 5200, in the next five years, is certainly not unrealistic, for it represents an annual increase of only 7.6 per cent.
But increased staff also means increased expenditures and, there again, I repeat- if the government wishes to follow up that recommendation of the committee, and I believe it is bound to do so-it will have to agree to substantially higher appropriations.

I said a moment ago that the department's total estimated expenditures for this year were about $48 million. If we deduct the amounts earmarked for gold mining assistance under the act, and those provided under various items for the dominion coal board, total expenditures, which reached $11 million in 1950, have now reached $24.5 million, i.e. an increase of 123 per cent in the last ten years. This is an average yearly increase of 12.3 per cent. I imagine that if the committee's recommendations are followed up, the department's total estimates will reach at least $60 million in 1964.
Another important recommendation contained in the report of the committee deals with research activity. On that point again I was very happy to hear, or rather to notice this morning, that a good part of the minister's statement dealt with research undertaken by his department and told us of his intention to introduce a bill which might meet the approval of all concerned.
The mines branch of the department was established in 1907 under the Geology and Mines Act. It was meant as a research organization, and indeed, since its establishment, it has kept dealing especially with technical and scientific studies more particularly related to the development and the efficient and economic use of our considerable mineral resources. Those are the terms of reference of this branch, as defined in the report of the department for the year 1957.
According to the evidence given by high officials of the mines branch, it is essential that basic research take a more prominent place in Canada's mining industry. We were told that specialized research with regard to the treatment of complex ore were to be intensified, as such research would be of benefit to the country five or ten years hence. Lastly, we were told that the need or necessity of basic research was conditioned by several factors. There was reference, among other things, to the requirements of up-to-date development methods which make for increased production and better quality, and of the ever growing mining of low-grade, complex or refractory ore, etc.
It was as a result of this evidence that the committee recommended that the mines branch research should concentrate on long term development, that preliminary research be made by private industry and, finally, that private industry should take on a substantial share of the research now carried out by the mines branch.
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In theory, Mr. Chairman, those recommendations may seem logical but, to my mind, fn practice they are not. It is true that some Canadian mining concerns may conduct research work to satisfy the greater part of their needs; the fact remains that most Canadian mining companies simply cannot undertake large scale research. In the first place, they lack the necessary funds and, more important, they lack and are unable to obtain a competent staff to conduct this work.
I think that the solution suggested this morning by the hon. minister should be seriously considered. I for my part, think his proposal is logical and I am sure that, if it were put into practice, the research division of his department and private companies, might be satisfied because the Canadian mining industry is aware of existing conditions, and intends to co-operate as far as possible with the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. This has been clearly established in the committee by the branch director, Dr. Convey, when he was giving evidence, and I hope the committee will bear with me if I quote some of the information that Dr. Convey has been kind enough to give us and which can be found on page 296 of the English text, no. 12. This is what Dr. Convey said:
I will say this, that over the past 10 years Canadian industry has attempted to do some of their own research, but they seem to reach a stage in which they lack the personnel they are wanting, and the facilities, and that is when we come into co-operation with them. However, there are quite a few firms who are attempting to solve a lot of their own problems.
And Dr. Convey went on to say as follows:
Once we undertake a problem the company becomes more interested, and eventually what happens is that they go back home and do a lot of their own homework; and we co-ordinate this program in such a fashion that we literally demand that they become more than a sleeping participant.
Mr. Chairman, let the staff of this division be increased, let the division recruit the scientists and technicians it may require, and here I am referring to the mines division of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, let it get the necessary equipment, let it have the necessary sampling plants and laboratories. That is basic, and I am all for it.
However it is definitely necessary that this division keep co-operating with industry and help industry solve the many and various
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Personally, I would be very happy if the department, in co-operation with mining companies, were to set up a laboratory such as the one operated in the United States, by the Battelle research institution, which the minister has mentioned. In my view, this would be a great step forward. However, it is imperative that in the meantime, the mines branch should go on supplying all the data that most of our mining companies cannot get for themselves. If we want our industry to keep expanding, it is essential that the department give continued help to mining companies.
At this point, I should like to put on the record the remarks, made by Dr. Convey at a meeting of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, about research and the possibility of setting the pace. Here is what Dr. Convey said, as recorded on page 298 of the minutes of proceedings and evidence of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, and I quote:
Through our efforts, we hope to stimulate our own industry to look after themselves, and our hope is that we can look to the day when we in the government laboratories can attend to those long-term research propositions which will be of benefit to the whole industry, and not to a particular part of industry.
I fully agree with these remarks of Dr. Convey. A little farther down, he added:
I have no doubt in my mind that if we can set the pace, industry will follow along.
Mr. Chairman, about this matter of giving leadership, I strongly urge the minister to carry out the recommendation put forward by the mines branch to the effect that an annual grant be established under his department, to encourage some bright university graduates-and here I am quoting the exact words used by Dr. Convey in the committee on mines, forests and waters:
-in order to try and encourage, at least in one field, some bright university graduates to enter the field of mining research.
Mr. Chairman, summing up my remarks concerning the report that was published following the discussions in the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, may I point out that I am in full agreement with those who hope the department will play a

leading role in the development of our natural resources. If the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is to retain the prestige it has acquired since it came into being, the government will of course have to give serious consideration to the provision of necessary funds, as well as of staff and facilities.
While the mining industry has developed tremendously since world war II-and I do not propose to go over the history of the development of that industry since then, because that I am sure that the minister has given a true and satisfactory summary this morning-mining is now facing certain difficulties. I do not want to magnify those difficulties, as I don't want to be pessimistic. I am rather optimistic as far as that industry is concerned. However, mining naturally feels the effects of the present slowdown in all branches of the Canadian economy. Metal prices have deteriorated, there has been overproduction, our friends to the south have clamped export restrictions on us, the industry is feeling the effects of inflation, and the rate of the exchange of the Canadian dollar is much too high, I believe.
In 1958 for the first time in many years, the total value of mineral production in Canada has declined. By the end of 1957, and at the beginning of 1958, prices of certain metals like copper, zinc and lead took such a drop that we wondered for a time, and rightly so, whether many mines would not be forced to close down. In fact, there has been a rather marked slow-down in development, prospecting and exploration.
The average price of copper in 1958 was 25.7 cents a pound, 13 per cent less than in 1957. Quite recently-and we are quite happy about it-the average price reached 31.5 cents a pound, but unfortunately, those last few weeks, it has dropped again to about 30 cents a pound. I hope we can look forward to the time when it will be possible to get a firm price for that metal, as well as for the others.
Prices of lead and zinc are low, and it is quite possible that they will stay low for quite a while yet.
Another very important problem with which the industry is now faced-the minister dealt with the matter a few moments ago- is that of American stockpiling of strategic metals. The possible liquidation even of a small part of those stocks, is a continuing

threat to the industry. Let us hope that the United States government will transfer those reserves to stockpiles already considered as national reserves, and will give us the assurance that those reserves will not be marketed, except in case of extreme urgency.
It is probably the marketing of certain quantities, however small, of those stocks of strategic metals, which is causing fluctuations on the copper market. The price of copper is up one day and down the next. I hope that this matter will be settled once and for all, for the benefit of the industry.
The mining industry, in common with our whole economy, feels the continued inflationary pressures, which are a serious danger to them. Competition for world markets is keener than it ever was. As I mentioned on a previous occasion several ore-producing countries where wages and production costs are often merely a fraction of those in Canada, are developing their own resources at a great pace.
Again, Mr. Chairman-and it would be well to consider this-we must always remember that the Canadian mining industry depends on our export trade, and that our mineral resources are an asset only to the extent that they are developed, produced and marketed. Otherwise, they are only worthless rock. This self-evident truth should not be ignored.
Another problem which must never be overlooked is that of uranium. I do not intend to dwell on this subject, since it was dealt with yesterday, and I believe the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) spelled out what has to be done in that regard. I only hope the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Churchill) will see to it that the Leader of the Opposition's recommendations made in the house yesterday will be followed up.
If the mining industry is now labouring under certain difficulties, as the hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce indicated, I believe future possibilities are rather encouraging.
In the last decade-and that is very interesting-world consumption of metals has increased considerably. In that same period, world consumption of copper, for instance, has increased by a million tons, or 35 per cent. As the standard of living rises in under-developed countries, it will certainly promote increased use of base metals.
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Therefore, Canada is bound to get a growing share of the expanding world demand for metals, and Canadian producers can look with confidence to the long term market prospects.
Canadian mining concerns hope and expect to remain the main suppliers of metals of all kinds on the United States market, for generations to come, and in ever increasing volumes.
However, in the meantime, we have some responsibilities. Everything should be done to keep the industry in top condition. Steps should be taken to ensure the highest possible level of employment in the mines, and we must see that Canadian producers are not forced to beneficiate their ore, and thus reduce the life of their mines. This is a most important point. If companies are forced to mine higher grade ores, it could shorten the life of the mines.
We must encourage prospecting and exploration by all possible means. We have the technical know-how and I cannot see why our country could not be at the forefront in that field. It is a branch of our economy which must remain sound and strong.
Mr. Chairman, I have taken quite an interest in the comments that the minister made this morning. His statement, while somewhat long, was genuinely interesting and contained several very practical ideas. Personally, I am interested in mining industry, I want it to keep on growing and, with the help of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, I am sure that we will reach that goal.
(Text):


Douglas Mason Fisher: While I can agree with the previous speaker that the committee on mines, forests and waters went through the estimates of this department very thoroughly, I do not take exactly the same view of the report that either he or the minister has taken.
I certainly do not intend, and I do not think anyone else in our party intends, to go into very much detail, because I think we all appreciate that the review made by the committee was very complete. But I should like to point out that unlike the work done on forestry later, in which the concentration was upon outside witnesses rather than anything else to bring us information, the information we had on the main estimates of
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the department came largely from the officials, and I must give those officials credit for being so frank and forthright.
The report presented represents a stunning indictment of government policy and lack of ministerial leadership in the last number of years. I do not know that we can absolve even the present minister. I wish to read what is perhaps the most critical section of the committee report, which refers to the mines branch:
83. The information elicited on the mines branch was depressing. The branch does not have the funds for the staff it needs to carry out the work it should do and wants to do.
About ten points are listed concerning the mines branch, which indicate the situation has not been good. There is no use labouring the point. We should watch this department perhaps more closely than any other department of government in the next year or two.
Parliamentary committees have now reviewed most departments of government, and no department to my knowledge was raked over the coals to the extent this department was in terms of not fulfilling the functions it was designed to fulfil. This is a more critical report even than that tabled yesterday on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, in some respects, and I hope the minister and his deputy appreciate the seriousness of the criticisms contained therein. You cannot find much flattering in the report about the work the department has done. As I said, the information that led to the criticism came from the officials themselves, which is a great mark in their favour. It is an indication that they know what they would like to do and where they would like to go. It seemed to me to suggest a genuine lack of ministerial leadership.
In the little game that is played in this chamber it is customary for questions of this kind to be tossed back and forth between the government and the opposition, each disclaiming responsibility. I helped prepare the report, and it is clear that most of the responsibility rests with the previous government for letting this department fall behind in the obligations it should have been pursuing.
One recommendation not mentioned by the previous speaker refers to the work of the geographical branch in paragraph 93, referring to land use. A big conservation conference is planned for 1960. If we are going


to go in for more and better forestry and land use this branch of the department is going to have to make provision for greater and more detailed surveys.
I am always pleased when I can compliment someone in Ontario, and we have in this province a group very much interested in land use. Last year they held a conference in the Niagara peninsula and went into the whole question of cost benefit studies and land use in this region, where some of the finest agricultural soil in the country is going out of crop production because of industrial expansion. Soil experts, geographers, foresters, engineers and people interested in the natural topography of Canada in its many facets agree that we have to come to grips with this problem. We look forward to this forthcoming conference and hope the department and especially the geographical branch will plan on making a vital contribution to its success. Perhaps later the minister will give us an indication of the contribution that will be made.
I wish now to refer to gold mining assistance. Following remarks I made on this subject last year the Northern Miner, a puff sheet well known in the mining trade, which exploits stocks and gives the latest gossip in the trade, severely took me to task for calling into question the integrity of mining companies. They stated that I was completely wrong in my understanding of the situation with respect to gold mining assistance. The paper is entitled to its views, and I mention it only because I propose to bring up the same points now.
Under section 6	(a) of the Emergency
Gold Mining Assistance Act inspectors of the department have the right to go and inspect mine workings. Last February 3 the minister filed an answer to questions of mine as reported at page 666 of Hansard of that date. The questions were as follows:
1.	How many times and in what years before 1958 did inspection engineers of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys use the powers given under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act (R.S. 1952; c. 95) section 6, subsection (a) "to enter upon and examine the mine from which the gold in respect of which the payment is to be made is produced" in so far as the following mines are concerned-
A list then appeared of Ontario mines in receipt of assistance. I continue:
2.	On any of such kind of inspections were drawings and plans of the workings checked with the actual workings?
3.	If so, on what occasions?

The answers read as follows:
1.	An inspection engineer from the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys carried out an annual inspection, under the provisions of section 6 of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, of the mines listed, for each of the years from 1948 to 1957 inclusive. In general, the inspections did not include an examination of the underground workings.
2.	No.
3.	Not applicable.
We have been sitting in the broadcasting committee where the Conservative members in particular have expressed themselves as terribly keen on getting at the roots of all these subsidies. We have to make sure the C.B.C. is not wasting our money; we are really going to go into the thing thoroughly. In this instance we are giving millions of dollars to private corporations under federal legislation, and the inspectors of this department do not even bother to examine the underground workings of the mines. They go into the offices, that is all.
This is not a case of my raising questions about the integrity of corporations. If we believe that the spending of public money should be checked to see that we get value for it, then it is up to those inspectors to do something more than just to walk into the mine office. I also understand from the information I received from the department that these inspectors are on the property for maybe half a day; they just visit around.
How in the name of all that is sane can you have any kind of check of millions spent in that way if you just have a fellow drop in for a day? Surely if the Conservative members of this house are going to be suspicious at all times of government subsidies that are going out to crown corporations, then I think they have, and I think the minister needs, to adopt a bit of suspicion toward companies that are receiving this money. It seems to me this is the kind of consistency we should have.
I should like to know from the minister why these inspectors do not do much more checking of those companies. We gave them examples last year of a couple of mines that we were suspicious of in one particular field. The miners with whom I happen to have a fair amount of contact tell me that stopes are cemented up, that various rich veins are just passed by while the company goes on to mine something of a lower grade. I know in this whole question of mining different grades there is a great deal of leeway left open to
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the mine officials. It is a complicated procedure. But I would feel much better about these millions being poured into these gold mines if we knew the inspectors were going to run a real check on them. A man who spends half a day on a property and does not even go underground is not an inspector; he is just a travelling salesman handing out money. I suggest to the minister that there should be a more thorough inspection.
There is another aspect of the emergency gold mining assistance that bothers me and perhaps some other members of the house, and that is the trend in the gold mining industry to consolidate and move toward monopoly. For example there is one syndicate, the Little Long Lac syndicate, that in the last couple of years has been gobbling up a whole group of mines. Among the mines, as an example, was MacLeod-Coekshutt. A number of people in my particular region were small share holders in that mine, which was a fairly sound one, a low-cost producer. It had no tremendous future, but it was paying regular dividends, and the actual share value of the stock was not particularly high.
Here were people-and I can give some other instances-who had very low incomes, people who were pensioned off, who were counting on these dividends. What has happened with this monopoly trend type of thing? We know this is financed by big men in the market who are able to play the thing, but for the little person it is pretty tough. They took over without having to go to the trouble of purchasing all the shares; they took over many of these smaller companies, and consolidated the operations. I suppose they may be making them more efficient; they certainly have more money to provide for further exploration and maybe to develop this particular mine's properties. But what has happened in these particular cases is that the dividends almost always stop.
In so far as Little Long Lac is concerned, that is so. The smaller shareholder has no protection; he, of course, has no real voice in the shareholders' meetings. This is one of the laughs about the democracy of a company set-up; the small shareholder is just a joke. He can only say this. He had shares in this mine which were bringing him some dividends. All of a sudden the mine is taken over by a bigger corporation and the dividends stop, but the emergency gold mining assistance goes right on.
In the MacLeod-Cockshutt case, as I remember it, the dividend that was paid for a number of years almost equalled what that mine was getting from the government. Well, the dividend stops but the emergency gold mining assistance goes right along. How can you blame the small stockholder, the
6208	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys small investor, for feeling that in effect in these circumstances the government is subsidizing with emergency gold mining assistance a group that is extending its tentacles to cover a great deal of the mining world.
I am neither an expert nor a critic of the building up of these large corporations that control a number of mines. I tend to distrust them, though I know there are a number of socialist economists who say it is nothing more than a natural trend that is going to lead to a new corporate structure that is largely going to be in government hands. But without getting into the inevitability of those developments, here is a case where a government subsidy is going to mines and those mines are in this position. It looks as though in the years ahead they will not be paying any dividends, but that the increment value will come to the people who own large blocks of stock in the holding group as a whole.
Last year my hon. friend from Timiskam-ing raised a point. He wanted to make a change in the act which would force the mines to give a certain percentage of the emergency gold mining assistance to their employees. I still think there is something valid in that point, but I would like to ask the minister a question on this other point. Does he consider it fair, or does he think he can do anything about this situation, where several hundred thousands of dollars will go to a mine that should be a going operation with that assistance, and nothing ever gets to the shareholders? I think it is a most questionable operation. If those mines are kept going only in terms of emergency gold mining assistance I think we need to re-examine the monopoly conditions that are developing in that gold mining industry.
I know the minister will probably say that this is something for the Minister of Justice and the combines investigation branch, but I suggest to him that it is also something for him, because it certainly is an irony that millions of dollars of the government's money are spent in keeping those gold mines going. The communities are all behind it. This is one of the ironies. You have the community people, the unions, the service clubs and everybody else out beating the drum for the mining companies because they want to keep the mines going, they want to keep them alive; but what is actually happening to the money in some of these cases, and especially in the Little Long Lac case?
That, Mr. Chairman, covers what I wanted to say on emergency gold mining assistance, the question of inspection and the question of the failure of some of these companies to


carry on the practices of the past. That is the real point of the monopoly of the big holding company structure. I hope that next year when the minister appears with his estimates we will be able to say, he has put on an excellent show in carrying out the recommendations that were made by the committee. I certainly hope that if the committee sits again the officials of the department will display the same candour and honesty they displayed this year.
I do not mean to say there was anything odd about their candour and honesty, but I certainly feel that, much more than any other government officials I have ever heard giving evidence, they tried to be as frank and as blunt as possible, and for that they are surely to be commended. I hope the minister will remember that the past policy of the department can be much criticized for creating a despondent state throughout the department, and that he will make sure that such criticisms will never need to be made again, at least in his time in this particular department.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Why do we not go right on through the lunch hour?


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, it is one o'clock.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. MacEwan):: remind hon. members that the committee meets again at two o'clock.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2 p.m.
Mr. Soulham:: I should like to ask the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys if he would mind outlining the ground-water survey program that his department is conducting for Saskatchewan. It is generally recognized that Saskatchewan on the average is one of the most arid regions in Canada and there is a pressing need for water for industrial and domestic uses in our province, particularly in the rural areas. I feel there is definitely an urgent need to expand and accelerate this ground-water survey program. Government policy in the matter is of particular interest to many of our hundreds of towns and villages in Saskatchewan which are looking for a source of water for waterworks and sewage disposal systems. I should like to have a comment on this particular problem, if I may.


Paul Comtois: In answer to the question of the hon. member for Moose Mountain may I say that beginning this year the geological survey is fielding a two-man ground-water

survey party in the Saskatoon area. This year's survey will consist largely of groundwater inventory work under the direction of Mr. A. Toth. The area of operation will be expanded to cover that part of the populated plains region not already covered by groundwater surveys. This will eventually involve mapping an area of roughly 25,000 square miles. This work has been specifically requested by the provincial authorities. It is hoped that this inventory survey work can be expanded as additional survey positions become available. The provincial authorities are willing to supply the summer assistants or additional labour to aid the work of the geological survey, provided the survey can and will supply the geologists to supervise the work. I hope this answer satisfies the hon. member.
(Translation):


Mr. Martel:: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a few words. I do not want to take up too much of the committee's time, but before the first vote of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is carried, I would like to make a few remarks. They will be very brief, because in his remark this morning the minister covered the subject very well indeed.
I am taking this opportunity of congratulating the minister for the marked interest he has taken, since he took office, in problems of special concern to his department.
I also support the remarks of the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) with regard to departmental senior officials who, unquestionably, are very conscientious, deeply interested in mining and particularly anxious to assist that industry and prospectors of new mineral deposits throughout Canada.
I would also like to tell the minister how much we appreciated his visit, in our district last autumn, when he came to look at the mines in western Quebec, to gather first-hand information on the conditions and future requirements of the mines. I therefore take this opportunity to tell him that we all have pleasant memories of his visit and I hope that he too will remember with pleasure the proverbial hospitality of people in western Quebec.
And now, I should like to offer to the minister a suggestion with regard to geological surveys in my area, more particularly in the riding of Chapleau, which I have the honour to represent in this house.
I know, for instance, that a good many aeromagnetic surveys have been carried out through his department in western Quebec
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys for the past few years, and they are very important, indeed. They supply very useful information not only to mining companies but to prospectors and to anyone interested in mining development, either in western Quebec-an area of particular interest to me personally-or anywhere else in this country where such surveys are taking place.
The minister told us this morning that similar surveys are being carried out in some districts of northern Ontario, near the Manitoba boundary, and in various other places in this country. However, in addition to those aeromagnetic surveys, I think it would be well to undertake other and more detailed geological surveys in various areas and, more particularly in the district of lakes Kitchigama, Mattagami, Waswanipi, Bachelor and Opawica, to mention a few names that occur to me. Those lakes are located along what is called a mineralized zone, a mining zone, in the central area of the constituency of Chapleau, about midway between the present settlements along the railway line, and James bay, farther north. No geological survey has been made along that mineralized zone for at least 20 years.
As I said earlier, certain aeromagnetic surveys were made there, but no detailed geological survey. In my opinion, those geological surveys would be quite useful, not only to prospectors, but to mining companies. I believe very useful data could be got from the mining companies now operating in that area. Some of them have gone in for diamond-drilling on a rather large scale, especially in the last couple of years. Those borings are uncovering geological data which would indeed be worth compiling for use in drawing more detailed maps for prospectors and mining companies. To my knowledge, the last detailed geological maps of that region which have been published are known as the maps of Mattagami and eastern and western Chibougamau region. More detailed maps of that region have not been made for more than 20 years.
The provincial department of mines has made a few, but I believe the federal government would do well to consider the matter, so as to promote development of Canada's mining resources. The government should also undertake to have more detailed geological maps published, not only of the regions I just referred to, but also of new mining regions where necessary.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Mr. Chairman, before closing my remarks, may I point out to the house that the mining region to which I have just referred is a promising one, as pointed out by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys in his statement this morning. Again, quite recently, a new discovery was made at Opawica lake, along that mineralized zone located between Mattagami lake and the Chibougamau region. I am convinced that the region is one of the most important in this country.
(Text):


William Arnold Peters: Before lunch the hon. member for Port Arthur again raised this problem of emergency gold mining assistance and some of the charges and countercharges that have been made in regard to this matter over the past number of years. It might have been brought to the attention of the committee that last year when this question of emergency gold mining assistance was raised, several of us who represent mining areas had unkind things to say about some of the activities of some of the mines. I am quite satisfied with some of the reports that appeared at that time, one of which was carried in the Northern Miner, which is a mine publication, and we know what to expect from such publications.
This newspaper went on to say that I have had some experience in mines and I should not be allowed to make these statements, that these statements should not go unchallenged. They said I should not take advantage of the fact I am a member of parliament to make these charges. Well, Mr. Chairman, I agree with what was said. I agree with what the Northern Miner said, that I should not make these charges without being able to do something about them. I therefore telephoned at my own expense to Timmins, where I worked before, and communicated with several people in the mining industry with whom I had worked and whose word I could accept. I asked them to make inquiries and give me the numbers and levels of the stopes of two of the major mines in this area that were closed off and used only on rare occasions to supplement the grade of ore from that mine. I received a telegram containing this information which I communicated to the department. I was informed at that time that the department did not have any inspectors who had checked the stopes; they did not know whether they were operating or not operating, so they were not in a position to check this information.

Personally I do not intend to make a fuss about it this year. Unfortunately we are faced with a situation where we are working against a deadline. Everybody is very anxious to go home, so I would not want to go into this matter at great length at this time. I am convinced also that the department has not done anything about it as yet, and I am only referring to this matter again so the department will have a look at this particular problem. Then next year, when we have these estimates before us, I should like to know exactly what stopes are being mined in the various mines; what is the condition of the reserves; where the reserves are, and we would like to have not only the blueprints of those particular stopes but we would like to have an inspector go into the mine on regular occasions and inspect the workings to see if, in fact, these operations are being conducted. Then if I give information to the minister that number such and such a stope in such and such a level is not being operated because of the high grade ore in that stope, the minister will be in a position to send an inspector there immediately to check on the situation and take action under the powers the minister is given by the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.
I believe that in so far as every department is concerned, the Canadian National Railways, T.C.A., C.B.C. and all the other departments this government controls, we must-I agree with the Conservative members who have been crying very loudly- have some check on these organizations that come under the control of parliament. I believe also that hon. members would support me in saying that we must have some control over these large mining companies that have been using unsatisfactory methods in operating their mines.
At the time I made these complaints the department told me that this was good housekeeping practice. It may be from the mine's point of view very good housekeeping practice. I can see the reason for it. As was pointed out to me not long ago, there are no great fluctuations in most of these mines.
I think any person who has knowledge of mining operations knows that this does not happen; it is a condition that is created. Normally you would find probably three really good veins, and if at the same time you were mining a low grade vein your millheads might go away up. In most of the mines this does not happen. It does not happen because they sweeten up the low grade ore with high grade ore.
I suggest this may be very good housekeeping practice but, Mr. Chairman, this was not the purpose in raising the matter.

We made charges and I repeat them, that some of these mines have been low grading certain stopes, and this is contrary to the effective operation and the avowed purpose of emergency gold mining assistance.
I have the largest gold mine in America in my riding and, incidentally, it gets no assistance whatever from the government. On behalf of those people who depend on mines that are getting emergency gold mining assistance, we thank the minister for having increased the subsidy to the mines. Obviously this assistance must be reflected in the wages that are paid and in the conditions that exist in these communities, because these communities are entirely dependent upon this industry for their support.
We have asked in the past, at least some of us in this group-this may not come within the purview of the minister-that consideration be given to using some emergency gold mining assistance to help those areas that are completely dependent on gold mines in establishing secondary industries. No matter how long we continue to pay this form of subsidy to these gold mines, there will come a day when they will be completely mined out.
While it is true, from Canada's point of view, that new mining fields will be found and new mines opened up, the people in the existing gold mining communities depend on this government, now through emergency gold mining assistance and in future through some other form of assistance, to help them transfer their economy from total dependence on gold mining to secondary industry. Some of these communities have existed for 30 or 40 years, and it seems to me the time has now come when we should be looking very carefully at what is going to happen in the future.
This is all the more important when we remember that this act still has the word "emergency" in its title. It is not considered to be a permanent measure. We used to pass it every year until we gave it these additional three years of life. We are going to be faced again, the day it expires, with having to do something in that field. I suggest that the minister give very serious consideration to devising some other use for the amount of money the government is paying so we may be able, through this assistance, to eliminate the need for emergency gold mining assistance. In my opinion this can only be accomplished if we can introduce secondary industries into those areas.
Perhaps this point does not come within the jurisdiction of the minister, but if the minister could convince his colleagues that we should
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys have an increase in the price of gold I think a great deal of argument could be put forward for this proposition. It has not been, in the past, my practice to argue for an increase in the price of gold, for one or two very good reasons, the first being that Canada has supported the international monetary fund which has supported the sale of gold at a fixed price. I am aware also of the fact that the United States is one of the largest consumers of gold because, although we are not on the gold standard, gold is used to back our currency, its use in currency is endorsed by congress, and the amount of gold is set by the constitution.
Despite all these things, it also has a relationship to the price of real estate and the value of commodities. As inflation continues to increase, the arguments grow, and they are dramatized for an increase in the price of gold and a return to solid the backing of our currency by gold. This is a matter to which the minister can give consideration. I think he can urge the Minister of Finance to again put forward the argument in the international monetary fund and in our negotiations with the United States, pushing and working toward a higher price for gold.
This, I should like to point out, will not only solve the problem of emergency gold mining assistance, but it will solve the problem of expanding our production of gold very rapidly. I think there are few members here who have not at one time or another received a piece of information from one or more mining companies or mining promoters that has pointed out that if certain conditions are met-and one of them in an increase in the price of gold-the property they are offerring to you at 2 or 3 cents a share will be worth $15 or $20. I think it is quite obvious to everyone that an increase in the price of gold will stimulate a vast increase in our production of gold and in the search for that extremely valuable commodity.
There is another problem to which I should like to refer. It has been raised in Blind River. It covers the matter of another type of subsidy. I refer to the subsidy paid under the uranium clause to the mines in that area. I think the minister should give us some information on just how this subsidy from the government to the various mines is worked out. In negotiations to obtain more money for workers in a particular mine we are often told that if the wage factor goes up, then of course the amount of money the company will receive is going to be that much less. But we are told in this particular case in Elliot Lake, in the uranium industry, that the amount of money is tied to dominion

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys bureau of statistics figures and has no relationship to the wages that are paid in that particular industry. This publication goes on to say:
Here's how it is done. The yearly average hourly wage figure for Canadian mining other than gold is multiplied by $1.25 and then divided by $1,858 (both of these latter figures are fixed in the uranium contracts). The difference between the resulting figure and $1.25 (23 cents in 1958) is then paid to each uranium mining company on every pound of uranium oxide shipped to Eldorado. Depending on changes in the Canada-wide survey of average hourly earnings, the figure for 1959 and succeeding years may be greater than 23 cents per pound.
Here according to our calculations is what some of the local mines creamed off in 1958 as a result of the "joker" clause:
Algom	 $1,074,330.00
Denison	 975,145.03
Northspan	 968,332.89
Milliken	 264,040.00
Stanleigh	 256,092.35
This contract that has been worked out for the uranium has been a very hush-hush type of agreement as far as publication is concerned. I should like to ask the minister whether he has any information he would like to give on this matter, and how this type of clause was arrived at. This has been subsidized by the taxpayers, and is not in anything like as understandable form as the emergency gold mining assistance. I would suggest that if this type of subsidy is going to be employed, we should have an act that will cover it in the same way as is done under emergency gold mining assistance, and which will be administered by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys.
In closing I should just like to suggest to the minister that some consideration again be given to this matter of inspectors in the mines. I think the federal department could do a great deal of good if they were to give consideration to some of the conditions that have resulted from the present system.
While this matter is not at the present time under the minister's department, I suggest that more consideration should be given through his research department to some of the diseases and some of the working hazards of mining. I am thinking of the fact that in many of the provinces we have different mining regulations governing such matters as silicosis, bursitis, pneumococcus and some of the dermatitis problems that are raised by these various types of ore, and also this problem of uranium mining and some of the hazards that go with it. While, as I say, it has not been a problem with which the federal department of mines has been concerned, I think it is becoming increasingly necessary for them to give consideration to these matters.
[Mr. Peters.)
I should like to refer only to this particular case that I think has been repeated hundreds and hundreds of times across the country. I know it is true in my own area and I am certain it is true in the riding of the hon. member for Timmins, as well as in others. I refer to silicosis and how it has been treated in various provinces. I would recommend to all hon. members that they read and article that appeared in Liberty in November, 1958 entitled "My Husband Had to Die to Get Workmen's Compensation".
I think this article highlights one of the problems. This man and his wife for eight years conducted a battle with the compensation board in British Columbia. Then the wife sat on the doorsteps of the parliament buildings for some weeks and finally brought this matter to the attenton of many of the citizens of that province. When an autopsy was performed it was established that this man had silicosis and she was awarded a pension.
I agree that at the present time this is not a federal matter, but as technocracy advances and as the various forms of technical advance take place, I think we should be more and more willing to bring equality to workers, no matter in what province they live, where it is possible to do so through the federal department. I suggest that the minister give consideration to some of these diseases which are not even recognized by some of the provincial compensation boards. I am not suggesting that we interfere with the rights that have been given to the provinces, but there are fields of research that could be undertaken and some standardization of this research that I am sure would be beneficial to all workers throughout the country.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall vote 186 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Armand Dumas: Maybe the minister wants to answer the hon. member for Timiskaming.
(Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I have a few comments to make. Let me begin by saying a few words about the remarks of the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) whom I must congratulate on his excellent contribution to the debate. He twitted me, albeit quite pleasantly too long. However, I clocked his speech, as I had my own, and found that both were of exactly the same length.
If my remarks were a bit too long, so were his. But I don't mean this as a reproach; indeed I want to thank him for his very

constructive contribution. Naturally, as a member of the opposition, he had to say a bit of something about present conditions and, of course, he could not-on pain of high treason-say that conditions are better than they were at the time he used to sit on this side of the house. I can understand that.
However, he referred in particular to the price of copper, saying that the price in 1958 was 25 cents, that in 1959 it went up to 31 i cents, but that it is now 30 cents.
When, last year, I visited the area represented by the hon. member for Villeneuve, I was told by company officials that if the price remained at 30 cents a pound everybody would be happy. I do think that if it remains at that level and if the prospects hold, there will be no decline in mining operations. Besides, according to papers like the Northern Miner-which at times is perhaps a bit optimistic-the general situation is good. It is clear that progress is being made, and that the outlook is favourable.
(Translation):
And now I think I should say a few words about what was said by the hon. member for Port Arthur. He mentioned that there was a lot of criticism in the report of the committee on mines, forests and waters. Well, the recommendations made by that committee will surely help me to convince the government that more should be done in research and improvements in our department. Mr. Chairman, when I was appointed to be in charge of the department, things were as they were, and I must say that we are moving as fast as we can in that regard.
Another point was raised by the hon. member for Port Arthur, who has quite properly shown interest in the proper administration of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. I wish to assure him that my department and the Department of Finance are vigilant in ensuring that moneys are paid only after a thorough investigation of the cost of operation of every gold mining company which is eligible for assistance.
In answer to a question by the hon. member from Port Arthur, it was stated that the drawings and plans of the underground workings of every gold mine were not checked with the actual workings. I should like to point out that a limited underground visit would produce only superficial checks on the completeness of the mine plans. Such an inspection would be of no benefit unless a check survey of the underground workings were made and the grades and quantities of ore mined from the various working places
17. 1959	6213
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys were substantiated. Such a procedure would duplicate the work of the engineering staff at each mine, and would require a duplication of their number as inspectors. It is for this reason that direct examination of underground workings is undertaken only where unusual conditions exist. Far more effective checks on the operation and mining practices followed by a mine are obtained by the examination and correlation of mine plans from the engineering department, and the costs applicable to the various categories of mining operations from the accounting department.
It is in the interest of a gold mine operator to include in the costs which he submits for approval all the mining costs which have been incurred during the period. Unless he does so the amount of assistance he receives will be reduced. If a section of the underground workings is included in the costs but not shown on the plans, our usual examination of the plans of the work done and the costs attributable thereto would show at some point an abnormal and unsupported increase, thus calling for a further investigation of the matter. A comparison of the information submitted in applications for assistance is made with the details contained in the annual report to the shareholders of the company and other sources of information such as provincial reports.
The cost submitted by a company in each application, on which the calculation of the amount of assistance is based, are thoroughly examined. Final payment is made with respect to any designated year only after a complete audit has been made of the company's books of account at the mine and at the head office by the auditors of the comptroller of the treasury, Department of Finance.
I would like to assure the hon. member that the inspection and examination of mine accounts and plans submitted by companies applying for assistance payments are thorough, and that payments are made only in conformity with the provisions and intent of the act.
The hon. member for Timiskaming raised the same point, and I think this answers both hon. members. But if it were reported that some special investigation was desirable, we would be happy to do anything we could to find out if there is a nigger in the woodpile, as one might say.


An hon. Member:: An Ethiopian in the woodpile.


Mr. Comlois:: What was that?


An hon. Member:: An Ethiopian in the woodpile.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


An hon. Member:: I object to that.


An hon. Member:: We all do.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: As to the remarks made by the hon. member for Timiskaming, I thank him for his comments and suggestions, to which we shall give serious consideration.


Armand Dumas: 
Charles Edward Rea: Has the hon. member the unanimous consent of the committee to put this table on Hansard?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Chairman, there is just one weakness in a suggestion like that. I understood the hon. member to say that he had prepared the figures himself. If they were official figures from the dominion bureau of statistics it would be a different matter, but I am not so sure about this practice.


Armand Dumas: These figures were taken from the report on emergency gold mining assistance which was published by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, if I may, it has been the practice to accept these figures on previous occasions. I do not know why we should not do so today.


Armand Dumas: They are profferred merely to facilitate discussion.


Gordon Minto Churchill: If they are official figures I suppose it would be all right.
The Depuiy Chairman: Has the hon. member the unanimous consent he seeks?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
lEditor's note: The table referred to above
follows:1
PRODUCTION OF GOLD Cost-Assistance-Profits at $35 U.S.
Cost to produce	Assistance	Cost to produce	Gross profit perpayable per ounce	one ounce of gold	ounce of goldone ounce of gold	of gold produced	less assistance	produced U.S. dollars$15.00	0	$15.00	$20.0020.00	0	20.00	15.0025.00	0	25.00	10.0026.50	0	26.50	8.5030.00	$ 1.94	28.06	6.9435.00	4.72	30.28	4.7240.00	7.50	32.50	2.5045.00	10.28	34.72	.28
Rate in effect to which the 25 per cent recent increase has been added.


Armand Dumas: The table the minister was good enough to permit me to have reproduced in the record illustrates over a wide range of costs the effect on profit where assistance is paid and where assistance plus 25 per cent is paid. As costs increase beyond $25.20 an ounce the effect of assistance is to slow down
the declining profit rate rather than to provide for its maintenance. For instance, with assistance the break-even point on costs is extended from $35 to $45 an ounce.
The table also shows that the greatest profit is won with low costs and that, as the cost of producing an ounce of gold increases,


profits drop off very sharply. For instance, a profit of $20 an ounce can be made with a cost of $15 an ounce, but this drops to $10 with costs of $25, to $8.50 with costs of $26.50 and to $6.94 with costs of $30, to $4.72 with costs of $35, to $2.50 with costs of $40 and to zero with costs of over $45.
The veins in an average gold mine have a wide range in grade from probably less than one-twentieth of an ounce to several ounces to the ton of ore. Usually the number of tons of high grade ore is quite limited, and as the grade decreases the number of tons increases. A picture of it could appropriately be shown in the form of a pyramid with a small peak of high grade ore and a large base of low grade ore.
Mines like to have a three year supply of ore available at all times for the mill, and one of the tasks of management is to determine that mixture of the various grades from which a maximum profit can be won. Only by earning a maximum profit is the best use made of the resource itself and of the labour and capital provided for its development and production.
I should now like to cite an example. Assume we have an oreshoot ten feet wide by 480 feet long. This would yield 400 tons per vertical foot. Assume the recoverable grade to be 0.20 ounces or $7 with gold at $35. Assume cost per ton at $6. The cost per ounce would be $30. The cost aid would work out to $1.94 per ounce or 39 cents per ton. The income would be calculated on the following basis:
Income: 400 tons X $1	 $2,800
Cost aid 400 x 39*	 156

Less cost (400 X $6)	 2,400
Profit	 $ 556
Profit per ton $1.30
Now assume that a 2.5 foot width on each side grading 0.10 ounces recoverable or $3.50 per ton is mined as well. This would yield 600 tons per vertical foot. The combined average recoverable grade would be 0.167 ounces or $5.84 with gold at $35. The cost per ounce would be $36. The cost aid would work out to $5.27 per ounce or 88 cents per ton. The income would be calculated on the following basis:
Income: 600 tons X $5.84	 $3,504
Cost aid-600 X 88<	 528

Less cost-600 X $6	 3,600
Profit	 $ 432
Profit per ton $0.72
It would be bad practice to try low grading, because you have to make a profit. You
17. 1959	6215
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys have to mine the ore you have. It is good practice to try to keep an average grade. This was done by the responsible management of many gold mines in an effort to lengthen the life of the mines. We have many examples where companies tried to mine only high grade. The hon. member for Port Arthur complained about some of these.
Some mines do this in order to pay high dividends to their shareholders. One mine in Quebec paid 15 per cent on the money invested in the mine, but the mine had only a short life. Management was not wise enough to establish an average grade and a fair profit. The mine is not now in existence. It was giving employment to 300 or 400 men but now it is closed, though it could have been in operation for another 25 or 30 years. This is an example of the result of high grading. If you do low grading you achieve the same result, because if you do not make a profit on a mine it has to be closed down.
Another question was raised by the hon. member for Port Arthur regarding the amalgamation of some companies. He may have good reason to complain in the case of MacLeod-Cockshutt; I do not know. In Malartic one company acquired three mines previously under separate management, one of which was going to be closed down with salvage operations about to begin. The previous management was discouraged. I will not say there was bad management, but it appears that they did not have the courage to undertake additional exploration in order to find more ore in the mine.
These mines were taken over by a certain company through shares bought at a cost higher than the market cost. They acquired control of the mines and because of good management found an ore body which prolonged the life of the mine for another 20 to 25 years.
When I talk about this question and about the operation of Little Long Lac, I am not talking in favour of any person or group of persons owning Little Long Lac; I am talking for the electors of my constituency, for the people of my own home town who know the situation. Today that mine would be closed if it had not been taken over by a group of people who are interested in mining. They found an ore body, and the life of that mine has been extended for another 20 or 25 years.
I have another example. Little Long Lac took over another mine, Malartic Goldfields Limited. It was claimed that there was no more ore in this mine and they were to enter into a salvage operation. Well, they did not find any ore there; maybe they found some, perhaps 200,000 or 300,000 tons, which
6216	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys is lengthening the life of the mine for maybe a year or two. But what else did they do? They acquired two small prospects near that mine. They bought those prospects, and again they bought the stock at a higher price than they would have paid on the market. They bought those two prospects; they did the exploration work. They are doing the development work in such a way that Malartic Goldfields, which employs 600 men, instead of closing in one or two years from now, will be able to operate for another 15 or 20 years.
This is the result of the coming of Little Long Lac to my home town of Malartic. The people of Malartic are very happy today because people with some vision came there and did something to prolong the life of those mines. That is the situation. Maybe it is different somewhere else, I do not know; but I feel that if a group of people get together and are ready to take a chance and buy a gold mine or a copper mine-you do not buy those by just bidding a certain price; you have to buy control. You have to buy shares. You have to buy them on the market, or you have to buy them from a group of people who have those shares. What did Little Long Lac do? They went to the people who had control of the company and said, "We will pay you 15 cents or 20 cents more a share than the price of those shares on the stock market, because we are interested".
That is the situation, and that is the story of Little Long Lac in my home town of Malartic. I did not want to allow this matter to go unchallenged because the life of my constituency, which depends on gold mining and base metal mining, was at stake, and we want this industry to be as healthy as possible.


William Arnold Peters: The hon. member who has just spoken has given one side of the story, and there are two. He presented a large number of figures, but in those figures there were certain weaknesses. His description of mining conditions in his home town sounded very much like conditions in my own home town, where there is much more mining done elsewhere than in the mine. The hon. member spoke as if he was doing actual work in the mining of ore, and I expected to see it piled over in the corner some place.
With respect to these charges of low grading and high grading, there are cases which have come to my knowledge. I have talked with people who know exactly where those stopes are or they would not make the charges. The men who work in the mines do not do this because the grade of ore fluctuates; they do it to obtain a particular level, which is quite a low level. There is something to be said for maintaining ore at a particular level


that the hon. member did not mention, and that is that the mills are designed to function with a certain millhead and a certain rate of recovery. If you dump in a large quantity of high grade ore or if you dilute your ore with a large amount of waste, then your mill will not operate satisfactorily. Either high grade ore or very low grade ore or waste will upset the millhead and the mill will not work as satisfactorily as it will with the range of ore for which it was built.
In pointing out how gold mining assistance operates the hon. member used the figures that are in the book and I have no quarrel with those figures, but I think he realizes that what he was really saying was that he does not disagree with this system of high grading or low grading, that this is a good housekeeping proposition. I am suggesting that again he has forgotten something else that is prevalent throughout the whole gold mining industry and that is that the operators of the gold mining industry-and they are not very many in number-are eternal optimists. As the hon. member pointed out, in his area a number of the mines are controlled by one company. It is true that in each of the areas the people who are running and controlling the gold mining industry are eternal optimists when it comes to an increase in the price of gold. They operate for the day when the price of gold will go up. These people have been very surprised, because they were sure that when some of the present members of parliament who used to be outspoken champions of the gold mining industry when they were in opposition became supporters of a government they would continue to be champions of an increase in the price of gold. Now that they have become cabinet ministers, and some of them potential cabinet ministers they have not had the same desire to continually talk about an increase in the price of gold. Those people who are operating gold mines, being eternal optimists, are holding-and I am sure it is a fact-many sections of the well-known mines for the day when gold will be $70 an ounce.
While it is true that gold mining has to be maintained at the range for which the mill is designed to operate most efficiently, I still think some consideration should be given to this fact. There are people holding for themselves underground gold reserves against the day when the price of gold will rise. This is all we are asking the minister to check. We are not disagreeing that gold mines should be operated under what are called good housekeeping conditions, because we certainly support that. We agree entirely with what the hon. member has said. High grading is more detrimental to the country

and to the mining communities than low grading would be, but we think consideration must be given to some of the companies which are not totally dependent on emergency gold mining assistance, to see that they use the assistance to the best advantage of the communities.
Many of the smaller companies are in such a position that if emergency gold mining assistance were cut off or would require to be increased to an amount which the government would not see fit to recommend to maintain the small companies, they would be unable to operate. All we are suggesting is that the department of mines maintain continual surveillance of this problem so the money that is being paid to them in the form of a subsidy is used to the best advantage of the communities that are depending on this particular industry. When we make these charges in specific cases we are quite willing to give the names and the numbers of the stopes to the minister if he will give us some assurance that this information will not be neglected and that there will be an investigation. If we are wrong we shall be quite happy to get up in the House of Commons and say we were wrong in that particular instance.


Paul Comtois: I can assure the hon. member that every bit of information, specific names and so forth, that is submitted to us will be given the best consideration, and we will investigate each case.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, there is no need for many of us to speak at length on these estimates, in view of the very thorough study made by the committee. I rise for two purposes. In the first instance, I would not wish to hurt the minister's feelings by failing to say a few words on his estimates. Second, I have a point or two I wish to make with respect to the consideration of the committee report.
I have read the report carefully, and on the whole it is an excellent one. It does show some traces of, shall I say, parliamentary youthfulness and some tinges of overenthusiasm, but it is the result of a lot of hard work and study. It does indicate clearly that we would not have such a comprehensive and critical report if the estimates of the department had been going before the committee throughout the years. I am one of a good number of members who year after year urged the government of the day to refer the estimates of this department to the committee on mines, forests and waters. It is because of the fact that this was not done for 25 years that the committee had
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys to make such an exhaustive and lengthy study and has brought forward a somewhat critical report.
So far as the work of the committee is concerned, like the other committee members I appreciate very much the frankness of the evidence given by the officials called before the committee. But I should like to have seen representatives of industry called before the committee as well, as was done by the forestry section of the committee studying the estimates of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I think their evidence would have assisted the committee to attain more balance and a wider perspective.
I also want to emphasize that we must not fail, because of the critical nature of the report, to recognize the excellent work that has been done by the staff throughout the years, a tremendous amount of work to anyone who understands the various branches of the department and the importance of the work that is being done. As far as my constituency is concerned, I know the great importance of the excellent work done in connection with the Columbia basin survey since 1945. I do want to emphasize this, because I have received some comments from correspondents and I am afraid that through misunderstanding the nature of the report there may be a tendency to suggest that the staff has not been up to snuff. They have done excellent work while lacking the funds to provide a full staff and the buildings and equipment necessary.
I have one or two suggestions to make before I sit down. The report suggests the expenditure of a good many millions of dollars, and I am a bit cautious when it comes to spending money. What little I have managed to gather here and there has been the result of hard labour. I was brought up in a home where my mother and father emphasized three things. They were opposed to injustice, opposed to dishonesty, and against waste. It is on that last point that I wish to speak. When the government is giving consideration to the recommendations in the report I suggest that there should be a survey of the work being undertaken in the mining, mapping and other branches of the various provincial governments and also in private industry, to make sure that in extending the staff there is no unnecessary duplication of effort and waste of funds.
I think we are approaching a most appropriate time to give that matter very careful consideration in relation to the committee's report. I understand that the national conference on conservation is expected to meet some time next year, and I think that will
6218	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys be an appropriate time at which to go into this matter with the provincial governments and private industry to make sure there is no overlapping, no duplication, no waste of effort and no waste of public funds. I think that would be an excellent time to make a study of the allocation of the various fields of effort and activity, because on occasion I have noticed the federal government and provincial governments publishing similar maps and doing similar research work and so on, though I have noticed that this has lessened a great deal in recent years. I do suggest that the coming conference on conservation would provide a good opportunity to survey the whole situation, allocate the various fields of effort and, as I said before, avoid any unnecessary expenditure of public funds.


Mr. Martin (Timmins):: I should like to add a word to this very interesting debate. Different points of view have been put forward, and I was quite interested in the point raised by the hon. member for Timiskaming because last year I had occasion to take up this very matter with some of the departmental officials. The information given me at that time was that the department does no inspecting as such on the mining properties themselves, that the department's control is maintained solely through auditing and through the plans submitted by the various mines when they apply for gold mining assistance.
That is scarcely good enough, and is possibly one of the reasons there is so much misunderstanding and distrust on both sides regarding this problem. At this time I should like to renew the request we have made before in the house that a committee be set up to look into the matter in all its aspects. The federal government are involved because they pay the subsidy. The provincial governments are involved because they administer their mining acts, and the municipal governments are certainly involved because they are very keenly and vitally interested in the life and health of these mining operations. The mine operators are involved, of course, and so are the workers in the mines who could be represented by the union certified to represent them.
In the best interests of all concerned I think this matter should be looked into, and in my opinion there is no better time to start than right now. The Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was amended last year and is in force until the end of next year. At that time it will be coming up again for renewal or amendment or whatever action may be deemed advisable. If such a study were made it could possibly do away with a lot of the misunderstanding apparent at the


present time, and hon. members would be much better advised and better able to take the necessary action at that time.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I do not like to take too much of the time of the committee, but I wish to say something on the price of gold. The price of gold is now based on the United States dollar, and over the past few years the government has been paying for an ounce of gold prices varying from $33.25 to $34, much lower than the price of $35 in Canadian money. This makes for a difficult situation.
Of course the previous and present governments have been very generous toward the industry and with good reason. The Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act has done a lot of good for the gold mines. Last year the act was extended and the benefits to the gold mines increased by 25 per cent. However, in view of the fact that today gold is sold on the free market and people can hold gold here in Canada, which is a good thing because it has given some encouragement to the industry, the government is buying less gold. I think the government is buying very little gold produced by those mines which cannot benefit under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.
For this reason I believe the government would be wise to buy all gold produced in this country, and for it should pay $35 Canadian to the producers, whether they are base metal mines or gold mines. Of course, they should continue the assistance to gold mines which can qualify under the act.
Now, if the government were to pay $35 an ounce in Canadian dollars they would encourage the base metal mines, and they would encourage mining in Canada. I would suggest that the government raise the price of gold, but this is a difficult problem; I understand that. This is an international question. Of course if the government of Canada were to raise the price of gold, let us say to $50, they would be paying a subsidy of $15 because all we could get for that gold if we were to sell it would be $35 in United States currency. However, I think the time will come when it will be a good thing for the government to raise the price of gold. If we were to raise the price of gold I am sure South Africa would follow our example and raise the price as well. In the meantime, I suggest we pay $35 in Canadian currency for the gold produced in this country, and that we continue the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act as it is.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
200. Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and $50,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $3,299,108.
Armand Dumas: I wonder if under this item the minister could tell us how many parties are doing geological survey work across the country, and how many are in each of the provinces?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: In the Yukon Territory we have 2 parties; in British Columbia, 16; in Alberta, 4; Northwest Territories, 7; Saskatchewan, 4; Manitoba, 3; Ontario, 9; Quebec, 3; new Quebec and Labrador, 5; New Brunswick, 5; Prince Edward Island, 2; Nova Scotia, 4; and Newfoundland, 3.


Armand Dumas: Will the minister tell the committee whether the Fort George operations will be completed in 1959?


Paul Comtois: Yes, it will.


Lionel Chevrier: This is a matter in which the minister knows I have had some interest for several years. It has to do with the boundary line which separates the province of Ontario and the province of Quebec in lake St. Francis. I wonder whether the minister would tell the house what progress has been made in defining that boundary. I realize that this matter does not come directly under his control, but at the same time I know he has made representations to both provinces in an effort to determine the boundary and perhaps he can tell us if some progress has been made.
It is a problem which is of interest to those who live on the southern boundary of the province of Ontario and the northern boundary of the province of Quebec in lake St. Francis. This boundary between these two provinces has never been delineated, and because of the work which still remains to be done in lake St. Francis by way of dredging, and also because of the completion of the St. Lawrence seaway, it would appear to me that the time is now ripe for a determination of that boundary. Will the minister tell the committee if any progress has been made?
(Translation):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, in reply
to the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier), I must say, to my regret, that I have little progress to report on that count. I understand he is personally very interested, and in all respects, in the delineation of that boundary line. I know also that the matter is far from being directly under the federal
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys jurisdiction; indeed it is the exclusive concern of the two provinces in question, and of course we cannot force the province of Ontario or the province of Quebec to draw a boundary line between them.
In the ordinary course of things and officially speaking, I am unable to report any progress. On the other hand, now that the St. Lawrence seaway is completed, I have another argument available. Therefore, I do believe that we will be able to achieve that result in which I am also interested. I can also appreciate the interest of the hon. member for Laurier in the matter. I hope that, next year, I will be in a position to bring better news.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for his intervention and for what he has just said. However, may I make a further remark? There is also, in that matter, a legal question concerning the islands in lake St. Francis, a legal question arising out of some works that may be done and of many other activities which may take place in that lake. It becomes increasingly imperative that that boundary line be drawn up.
I am convinced that the minister could talk it over with his friend, the hon. premier of the province of Quebec, and in this way do much to help this project along.
The project is of personal interest to me, it is even more so to people who live on either side of the boundary line, and I do not believe it is fair that a boundary between two large provinces like Ontario and Quebec should not be determined under the constitution.
I accept the minister's statement, knowing that the matter is not directly under his jurisdiction, but a provincial matter. However, I repeat my hope that, thanks to his good offices with both governments, it may be possible before long to define that boundary line, which is of great importance to both provinces.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask
the minister a question about the boundary line between Quebec and Newfoundland.
(Text):
Has the minister had any opportunity to take up this question with his friend, the premier of Quebec? It might be that the minister, in seeking to solve this problem, could exercise his diplomatic functions in a somewhat wider field or, if he felt it ought to be done by secret diplomacy, perhaps he could get the minister of northern affairs engaged in it. What I should really like to

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys know is whether any progress has been made in defining the border between Quebec and Newfoundland.
(Translation):


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, if the
hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) were sitting on this side of the house, and I on the other side, I could ask him the same question: "Has he discussed the matter with his friend Mr. Smallwood?"
In any case, it is the first time I am being asked a question about that border between Newfoundland and Quebec, and that I am being told it has not been defined. The matter was never submitted to me.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the minister can assure me that his friend, the premier of Quebec is ready to discuss this matter I think I can give him an assurance right now that the premier of Newfoundland would be agreeable to discussing it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
202. Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,527,130.
William Arnold Peters: I should like to ask the minister how many officials he has capable of doing factual inspections in mines.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: If it is proved that we have factual inspections to be made, we have engineers to do the job.


William Arnold Peters: Are they listed under this vote in the details at page 275?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If we do that work we have to take them out of some other field, but the answer is yes.


William Arnold Peters: I should think it would take a practical as well as a competent engineer to do the underground surveys that are necessary if you were checking a particular place. I am interested to know in what part of the mines division you have these mine inspectors. The minister has said that some inspection has been done in the past. Which of these officials have done that inspection?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Up to now when some inspection was to be made we had engineers from the mineral resources division. We have another group of engineers in the mines branch. We can have some available for any purpose for which we need them.


William Arnold Peters: Is the minister saying that under this mines branch there are no inspectors at the present time?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No, I did not mean that.


William Arnold Peters: Would the minister indicate to me what section they are under, or where they appear on the list?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Maybe I misunderstood the question. We have no engineers or inspectors for that purpose at the mines branch at the present time. However, if they were needed in the mines branch we could divert some inspectors from the mineral resources branch to the mines branch in order to make some reports or some inspections.


William Arnold Peters: Is the minister saying that in the years we have had emergency gold mining assistance we have never had attached to this branch any inpectors for checking? If not, maybe he would explain to me where the auditors under this division come? As I understood it, there were two checks. One was an auditor's check that was done in the offices of the mining companies, using the books and data available in the offices. Then if there was any question with regard to this check they did the actual check or the visual resurvey. I would assume that this matter comes under this particular department.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I am told that the staff necessary for the inspections is taken from the mineral resources division; that is item No. 188. As far as accountants are concerned, they come from the Department of Finance.


William Arnold Peters: Does this not seem to be an odd way of handling a branch? This assistance is costing the Canadian people some $12,500,000 a year. In view of what was said in the report of the committee-unfortunately I was not a member of the standing committee-where they mentioned that many more officials were necessary in this department, that they have not expanded in the fields where expansion was necessary, may I ask the minister this question. Is this one of the fields in which increased personnel is necessary?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No. We did not make any such provision this year in that division.


William Arnold Peters: Does this not seem rather unusual? We have this large sum of money to supervise and we have nobody doing it. I was wondering whether perhaps the requirement was for men who were trained by some of the mining schools in surveying and geology and who were also familiar with underground operations, and that probably that was the department's requirement. But I see there are a number of them. I think that is quite an admission, that we have no full time inspectors to inspect the handling of this large sum of money.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I think the hon. member is wrong. We are on item 202 under the mines branch. There is no connection with the mineral resources as far as inspections are concerned. That matter comes under vote 188.


William Arnold Peters: Then what is the mines branch?
I would assume that the mines branch handled mines. I would not expect to look tor it under surveys or geology or something. I would expect it to come under the mines branch. If this department is as out of date as this, and if the mines branch does not cover the mines department, then I think we ought to take another close look at it now, not next year.


Mr, Comtois:: I do not know how I can explain the matter to the hon. member. Emergency gold mining assistance comes under the mineral resources division, item 188. There is no connection with the mines branch. That is another division. The mines branch is for research only.


William Arnold Peters: I think the mines branch must also handle this matter of inspectors. If the minister were to say that he keeps inspectors to do the surveying work, the factual and manual check that is necessary on the work the auditors do, and it comes under some other department, I would accept that answer. But I am of the opinion that the only place it could come would be in the mines branch, and that the only logical place to put your inspectors of mines would be in the mines division. I do not see how they could come under something else.
I am of the opinion that there just are not any such animals. I am also of the opinion that after I gave the minister information last year, the reason the minister's department could not check the information was that they had not the inspectors to do this job. I called and gave the information to the minister's department last year. I think the reason the checking has not been done and cannot be done is that we do not have any inspectors. If that is the answer, then I think that is the answer the minister should give.


The Chairman:: Shall vote 202 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


William Arnold Peters: No. I think this $12,500,000 that we are spending in a subsidy deserves much more control than this. I do not feel that I am doing my duty if we do not insist on there being some inspection for infractions of this act. I have been accused by some of the mining publications, as has the hon. member for Port Arthur. In both cases we have been to the department and have given them information that I think they should and could have investigated if they had the personnel with which to do it. I am of the opinion that they do not have the necessary personnel.
I do not see any place in this mines branch where we have inspectors for this type of mine inspection. If we have not, I think the
17, 1959	6221
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Canadian people should know that fact and that the Canadian people should demand that the expenditure of that amount of money is given the protection and the supervision of one, two or three inspectors who can do a competent job. They are going to have to be very highly skilled men. We shall have to go into the mines and do a resurvey job on some of these operations. I think we shall need at least one inspector; I do not think we have that inspector now, and I should like an assurance before this vote carries that the government is willing to provide one.


Mr. Aiken:: Why should he?


William Arnold Peters: What was that?


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Why should the hon. member tell the minister what to do? I do not see why he should give you any assurance.


William Arnold Peters: Maybe the minister does not have to give the Canadian public any assurance that the $12,500,000 which he is paying every year is properly administered, but there is no point in passing this estimate if there are going to be no safeguards at all over the expenditure of this money. If that is the opinion of the hon. member who has just spoken, and if that is accepted by the government, then I think it is the answer. And if that is the answer, I am quite satisfied by it.
(Translation) :


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I am under the impression that the hon. member for Timis-kaming (Mr. Peters) does not want to understand, obstinately refuses to do so, or is ill-disposed. I am doing my best to explain to him that the inspectors who supervise assistance to gold mines, under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, must be under the authority of the mineral resources division.
Even if we hired additional inspectors or engineers to do the inspection work he mentions, we could not take them from the mines branch but from the mineral resources division. Nothing has been changed in that matter. If more inspectors are required, we will take them on. I don't see any objection to adding one or two inspectors, if necessary, to the staff of that branch and to give them that supervisory work to do, but the hon. member may be assured that if we hire additional staff, the addition would have to be made to the mineral resources division not to the mines branch.
(Text):


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think note should be
taken of the intervention of the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka, who seems to be typical of certain backbenchers supporting
6222	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys this government in maintaining that the opposition and the Canadian public have no right to information about the way in which public money is being spent.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: Since the point of order has been raised, may I speak to it?


John Whitney Pickersgill: It was not a point of order; I just made an observation.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: My point was this. The hon. member for Timiskaming has been threatening to hold up the committee on these estimates unless the minister does something he wishes him to do. It is not the first occasion on which the hon. member has done this. He just finished saying that he would not allow this item to pass unless the minister gave him certain assurances. I see no reason why any hon. member should be in the position of saying "I shall not let this item pass unless the minister gives me certain assurances." Nor should any hon. member be in the position of saying "I am not letting this item pass unless the government does something."


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: I appreciate the explanations given by hon. members both to my right and to my left, but I believe it would be preferable at this time if we came back to our consideration of the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. It would be out of order to engage in a debate such as the one which seems to be starting at present.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is just one question I should like to ask the minister at this point. If I brought in an amendment to this particular act next session which would delete the particular subsection which gives inspectors the right to enter and examine mines in respect of whose production this subsidy is paid, would the minister support that amendment, or would he see no good in an amendment to this particular section of the act?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I will consider and study the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion observatories-
208. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $67,975.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I just wanted to say one word about this, and I will be very brief. I was most impressed, as one who has checked over the publications of the various parts of this department, to see what has been accomplished by the staff of the dominion observatory, with a very limited establishment in comparison with some of the other branches. Though they are working in an


esoteric field in comparison to some of the other divisions, they are turning out some excellent papers and seem to have a real conception of the duty of scientists to publish material on topics which are current and also on general theory. I would just like to compliment this particular branch on that achievement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
210.	Polar continental shelf project, $567,849.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like the minister
to tell us briefly what this project is.


Paul Comtois: This is a program which is part of a larger program of Canadian research. There is a very long explanation, and if the hon. member for Bonavista-Twil-lingate wants the whole story I will try to give it to him. It is up to him.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I could simply indicate to the minister what I would be interested in knowing. Has this project anything to do with explorations for oil?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No, Mr. Chairman.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And the minister knows nothing about the applications for permits in relation to the polar continental shelf?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Coal Board-
211.	Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $121,925.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Normally there would, I think, be a very long debate on this subject, but as the minister knows the question of coal has been debated a good many times this session. However, I would not want it to be thought that we in the opposition, especially those of us who represent the Atlantic area, were overlooking the interests of the people engaged in this industry which is having such a hard time.
I think if the minister could tell us briefly what the prospects of the industry are for 1960-whether he thinks production in 1960 and the possibility of marketing that production will exceed what was experienced in 1959-the committee would be indebted to him; and if the hon. gentleman could also tell us how soon this coal inquiry which has been promised by the government is likely to be started, I am sure he will get his estimates through very quickly.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, would it not be better to consider the supplementary estimates of the department at this time before dealing with the coal board?


Lionel Chevrier: That would be satisfactory to us.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Shall item 211 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I thought it was understood that we would stand this item and take the supplementary items first.
Item stands.
Administration services-
537. Departmental administration-further amount required, $49,005.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, how many people are involved with respect to the salaries under this item?


Paul Comtois: Six, Mr. Chairman.
(Translation):


Mr. Pigeon:: I have noticed that the explanatory text on geographical and topographical maps is in one language only. Could the minister consider the possibility of having maps printed with bilingual legends and captions?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the question of the hon. member for Joliette-l'Assomption-Moncalm (Mr. Pigeon), I might tell him that the legends and text on topographical and geographical maps, etc., prepared by the department, have always been printed in English, except on maps published for the province of Quebec. That anomaly has been pointed out to me, and I have given instructions that, henceforth all topographical and geographical maps carry legends in both French and English. I cannot tell the hon. member if that work has already started, but instructions have gone out that in future those maps show bilingual legends.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey of Canada-
542. Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $112,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, in these geological surveys, and indeed in other surveys where students are employed, is an effort made to employ students from all parts of Canada? Could the minister tell us how many students from Memorial University have been employed?


Paul Comtois: I can obtain that information for the hon. gentleman, but I do not have it here. I can only say that this summer approximately 200 students, in round figures, were employed during the holidays.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am particularly interested in the number employed from Memorial University. Many of these surveys are done in Newfoundland, and I am wondering if any effort was made to employ students from Memorial University?
66968-9-394
17, 1959	6223
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Paul Comtois: I shall obtain that information with pleasure and give it to the hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch-
543. Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $157,825.
Armand Dumas: Does this cover increases in salaries and wages or salaries and wages of new employees?


Paul Comtois: The amount last autumn was underestimated. It is for the general staff.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Coal Board-*
211. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $121,925.
Richard Russell Southam: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words in support of the lignite coal industry of Saskatchewan, and especially on behalf of the Great West Coal Company and the Saskatchewan Coal Company Limited, operating in the Estevan area in my constituency of Moose Mountain. The problem to which I am about to refer arises as a result of the 17 per cent freight rate increase last December. I feel that I should protest against the exclusion of lignite coal from the subsidy relief proposed by Bill No. C-38, and ask for relief against the increase in rates of 22 cents per ton on lignite coal authorized by order No. 96300 of the board of transport commissioners for the following reasons.
First, the lignite industry is faced with fierce competition from the new natural gas industry in its principal markets, and its very existence is threatened by the drastic price increases and anticipated loss of business to natural gas resulting from the freight rate increase.
Second, the lignite industry has not received any benefit from subventions comparable with that conferred on other branches of the Canadian coal industry.
In the third instance, lignite coal is a low value commodity subject to a comparatively short haul, but has received no relief from any of the successive flat per ton increases imposed on all coal in post-war years.
I should like to give a brief description of this industry in our area. Lignite coal is strip mined near Bienfait, Saskatchewan. A fairly constant production of slightly over 2,200,000 tons has been maintained since 1950. The principal markets are for industrial uses in the Winnipeg area. More than 70 per cent of the coal sold in the Winnipeg area is lignite. Other markets are in the Regina and Brandon areas, and certain pulp and paper plants at
6224	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Kenora, Dryden and Fort Frances in Ontario. Lignite coal possesses a substantial market advantage as a low cost fuel located near its principal markets, only 280 miles from Winnipeg and 155 miles from Brandon.
In the post-war years the domestic house heating market has been pre-empted by fuel oil and latterly, to some extent, by natural gas. The industry by vigorous salesmanship, which included assistance to industrial users in the installation of proper heating plants, was able to develop an industrial market more than replacing the lost domestic market.
Concurrently the companies have invested more than $5 million in new equipment since the war. As a result of mechanization and technological improvements, the industry has been able to absorb successive wage increases, and has raised the mine price of coal by only 10 cents per ton since 1948. The present mine price averages $2 per ton.
I wish to compliment the minister, who I believe visited my constituency not too long ago and addressed an organization representing the coal industry there. The reports I received from the constituency indicate that the minister left a very good impression with them. I trust that he came away from that area in Saskatchewan with a favourable impression of it. While there I believe he inspected the operation of the machine known as Mr. Klimax, one of the largest strip mining machines on the North American continent, which is of assistance in rendering more economical the mining done there to have the product compete with other competitive fuels.
The lignite industry by its vigorous salesmanship and technological initiative has been able to maintain its position notwithstanding the competition of premium fuels in the postwar years. Its existence is now threatened by drastic increases in transportation expenses which it is powerless to control.
Another interesting sidelight in the lignite picture is that its position is good and will continue that way as long as industry survives. Expert studies such as the Gordon commission report agree that the outlook for Saskatchewan lignite is satisfactory. It is a low cost fuel located near industrial markets. Of particular importance is the growing demand for thermal power. Saskatchewan lignite is in a position to satisfy the demands of large thermal power stations erected or to be erected by Manitoba hydro at Brandon and Selkirk. If transportation costs can be held in check, lignite could supply the thermal power in these installations in preference to natural gas. On the other hand, even though the long term demand for lignite might be assumed to be satisfactory, it will avail little if the producing companies are not able to maintain
[Mr. Southam.I

their present markets and survive to enjoy it.
However, with reference to natural gas, which has sprung up in the area just in the last two years, since the greater part of the lignite market is industrial it is extremely vulnerable to the competition of natural gas. It is a well known feature of the natural gas industry that gas is offered for sale to industrial users at low prices in order to build up volume in a new natural gas pipe line or distributing system. As and when higher prices in the domestic markets are developed, low priced gas ceases to be available for industrial users. All proper steps should be taken to prevent the lignite industry from being destroyed by the initial competition of natural gas so it can survive to enjoy the brighter future which expert opinion predicts is in store for it.
Already some large accounts have switched from lignite coal to natural gas. As an example, one paper mill representing something like 5 per cent of the industry's total production has been lost. The industry could not survive many losses of this order. While the lignite industry is fighting to maintain its position, its competitive strength is gravely weakened by uncontrollable increases in transportation costs. The last 22 cents per ton increase is the equivalent of almost 2 cents per m.f.c. of natural gas. The failure of the lignite industry at this critical stage to obtain any relief from the recent increases will, it is feared, have an adverse effect on its customers and further strengthen natural gas competition.
Subventions do not apply to major lignite coal movements. This is something I was surprised to find out. While the lignite industry supports the aid extended to other branches of the coal industry in the form of subventions, it receives little assistance itself. In round figures, only 275,000 tons out of the total of 2,200,000 tons produced by the lignite industry benefit from subventions. The amount paid to the lignite industry was $247,000, or less than 85 cents per ton, subject to subvention. This is the tonnage delivered to pulp and paper mills in northwestern Ontario. The bulk of the industry's sales, which occur in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, do not qualify for subvention.
The substantial subventions paid to other branches of the coal industry have been referred to as one reason for not extending the benefit of the freight rate subsidy act to coal. The Minister of Transport on April 9, 1959, referred to subventions as follows, at page 2394 of Hansard:
Assistance to coal and coke is given in the form of subventions, and to show how those subventions have been increased, for instance, during the past two years, I will give the comparative figures

for the years 1956 and 1958. In 1956 the average subvention paid per ton was $2.67. In 1958, the average subvention per ton was $3.15. This shows that there has been an increase of 48 cents per ton during those two years, or an increase of 18 per cent.
Subventions paid during the calendar year 1958, by regions were as follows: In the maritime regions, that is in the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, the amount was $8,546,041. In the western region, that is the province of Alberta and the Crowsnest area of British Columbia, the amount was $667,000.
On March 17 last the Prime Minister announced in the house that the federal government would pay an additional $500,000 in the form of subsidies to maritime coal this year. The government also recently announced the payment of an additional 50 cents per ton on 100,000 tons of Alberta coal which was being shipped to Japan, and this additional subvention was paid to make possible the sale of that quantity of coal.
The extent of present and future subsidies payable for maritime, Alberta and British Columbia coal overshadows the small subventions paid on lignite coal. In addition, the average subvention paid per ton is more than three times greater than the subvention paid on the small tonnage of lignite coal subject to subvention.
It would seem unfair to deny one branch of the coal industry relief from freight rate increases because of the special subventions paid to another branch. Moreover, it might appear advisable in the national interest to attempt to maintain the lignite industry in a reasonably sound economic position by the extension of the general freight rate subsidy to it. This alternative would appear more attractive than attempting later to shore up a near broken industry by subventions and other measures of special relief.
I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the last freight rate increase may be the straw that will break the camel's back in that particular part of the coal industry, and I am quite familiar with the problem because I have been working on it. I would strongly urge the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys to give the problem of the Saskatchewan lignite coal industry very serious consideration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the minister in a position to answer the questions I put to him?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Will the hon. member repeat his questions?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I asked two questions. The first one was, what did the minister think the prospects were for next year in the coal industry in Nova Scotia? Does he think production will be greater next year than this year, and do the marketing prospects look better and also the employment prospects? Can the minister assure us that there are not 66968-9-394J
17, 1959	6225
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys likely to be any lay-offs? The second question was, can the minister tell us how soon the inquiry promised by the government is actually going to be set up?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, the production for 1958 was 11,687,000 tons. For 1959 we estimate that the production will be around 11 million tons. I cannot give an estimate for 1960, of course, but I do not think there will be an increase.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Does the minister think there is any hope of maintaining that figure?


Paul Comtois: Yes, there is hope of maintaining that figure.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister say anything about when this inquiry will be set up?


Paul Comtois: I cannot tell but I might say that we had a meeting very recently and the whole matter is under study. I think action will be taken on the matter very shortly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Soon after prorogation?


Paul Comtois: It depends on prorogation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: One other question for the minister. Has he any figure-I am not going to press him if he has not-for coal production in Nova Scotia in the last 10 years or thereabouts? If so, can he make it available?


Paul Comtois: Yes, I have them here. I might table them now.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could we have them inserted in Hansard?


Charles Edward Rea: Has the minister unanimous consent of the committee to place these figures in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[Editor's Note: The figures referred to above follows:]
Output of coal in Nova Scotia mines-figures given in net tons (as published by the dominion bureau of statistics).
1950	  6,478,405
1951	  6,307,629
1952	  5,905,265
1953	  5,787,026
1954	  5,842,896
1955	  5,731,026
1956	  5,775,025
1957	  5,685,770
1958	  5,269,879
N.B.-The total given for 1956 does not include 802 tons recovered from dredging operations.


Howard Russell MacEwan: Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks on this matter. Like the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, members on this side of the house are certainly not overlooking the coal industry which is so important to our province and the Atlantic
6226	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys area. It cannot be said that the members on this side are overlooking it, as I have said. We have support from the government members from Cape Breton North and Victoria, Cape Breton South, Inverness-Rich-mond, and others, and we are pleased with the steps taken by this government in this matter, which are the result of the submissions of the members on this side of the house.
I would like to congratulate the minister and the government on the increases in subventions which they have made possible, as shown by the estimates, and which have come at an important time to assist in the gaining of additional markets in upper Canada; also the payments, as shown in the estimates, to be made under the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act.
Coal, as we all know, is fighting for its life, but it will come into its own, as was stated a short time ago by the chairman of the dominion coal board. But what is necessary is for the largest producer in the area, the Dominion Coal Company, to lessen its costs so as to be competitive in the market for fuels which exists today. We hope this will be carried out by this company, and that with the co-operation of all those upper Canadian markets, particularly the thermal plant in those areas, will be covered. I submit that we need a long range program to assist in keeping our present markets and achieving new markets. I understand that an announcement will be made in due course by the government as to a royal commission or inquiry of some type into the coal industry and I would suggest that in that inquiry attention be paid not only to the largest producer but to the independent producers in Nova Scotia, the Atlantic region generally and my own county of Pictou.
In the county of Pictou we have three mines in operation now, whereas several years ago we had six or seven. One thing I should like to see in the future, if possible, is the sending of more of the production of Acadia coal owned by Dosco from the Mac-Bain mine at Thorburn for use in the upper Canadian markets with the help of the subventions which are possible under the estimates. These subventions are paid only on certain types of coal, of course, and part of the production from this particular mine could come under these subventions.
Announcement has been made that a new mill will be started in the Canso strait area and it is hoped that it will be completed within the next two years. It is hoped that the construction of this mill will assist in increased consumption of power from the thermal power plant at Trenton which is in


my constituency. I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate the committee on mines, forests and waters for their recommendation to increase the amount payable under the Act to assist producers of coal in Canada. There may be need of a change in the act in order to provide for assistance before too long if a responsible company or party in my own county should come forward with the idea of opening a mine in the Westville area. If the company is a responsible one I believe that the government of Nova Scotia will help in the endeavour.
I have gone over the act providing for assistance to producers of coal in Canada and have looked into the matter as a lawyer, but I am not quite sure whether or not it covers new mines, in any event, if a competent company comes forward I believe that this government, on the basis of the submission of the government of Nova Scotia and the submission of the company, will certainly amend the act to make it possible for the company to obtain money to carry out this project. A new mine in the Westville area has been talked about for a long time and submissions have been made by the industrial committee within the area which includes representatives of business, labour and various other groups. At the last convention of the United Mine workers of America held in Truro a recommendation was made that a new mine be established in Pictou county.
A submission was made by the Canadian Labour Congress, accompanied by officers of the independent unions at Greenwood in Pictou county and the Drummond mine at Westville for the opening of a new mine. I recall that I spoke on this matter at I believe the first session of parliament which I attended which commenced in October, 1957. I repeat that any commission or investigation must look into the matter of coal mining particularly in the Atlantic area by considering a long range program and also looking into the situation of the independent producers in Pictou county and throughout the province of Nova Scotia. I would point out that formerly we had roughly 2,000 employees working in the coal industry in our county and today we have approximately 500 employed in three mines.
I should like to state that we appreciate very much the help given by the federal government as shown in the estimates for the Atlantic provinces thermal power plan, and a large extension of the thermal plant at Trenton in Pictou county has been in progress for some time. I notice in the press that the grid system between the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick is now being completed and I hope that as more

power is used more coal will be used, particularly in the thermal plant in my own area. The idea when the legislation was passed at the first session in 1957 was to provide cheaper power for new industry and thus help the coal industry.
Other industries are being introduced in our area and at various other places in the province of Nova Scotia but it will take time and effort to attain the necessary objectives of the plan. I would submit and recommend that the coal industry must be preserved for the sake of the families and the communities of those areas where coal mining has decreased over a number of years. We must preserve our present industries as well as introduce new ones.
Finally, the minister visited my area and the province of Nova Scotia generally last year. He travelled around and saw the bankheads although he did not go down in the mines. He spoke to officials and labour in Pictou county and has first-hand information about the problem. I know that he will give every consideration to the recommendations and suggestions I have made.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to say one more word. While no one on this side objected and, indeed, we supported the increase in the subventions to help meet the crisis in the coal industry, it does seem to me that the constructive way to deal with the long term coal problem is certainly not to pay large sums out of the treasury to transport coal to central Canada in order to build up industry in central Canada. If these large sums of public money are going to require to be spent over any long period, and I am sure they will be over quite a period, in order to maintain and ultimately to improve this industry, it seems to me there are two much better channels into which the money could be directed and I hope that the inquiry will look into this matter.
The first is the use of coal right at the pithead to develop power so that more industry can be located in these Atlantic provinces. The second is to accelerate research as I think we should have done when we were in office. I say that quite openly, but the fact that it was not done is no excuse for not getting ahead with it now. We should accelerate research on a very large scale into new uses for coal because, if I may raise a very contentious point, I think if anybody will read fairly and objectively Mr. St. Laurent's famous speech-perhaps I should say "notorious"-at Fredericton in 1957 he will see that Mr. St. Laurent was absolutely right and that he had a real vision about this matter when he said that coal was going
Supply-Fisheries
to be very much more valuable for its chemical properties before too long than as a fuel.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES General services-
127. Departmental administration, $398,000.
John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, I want to say that this is a time I have been looking forward to for many weeks and I am very pleased that it has eventually arrived. It is not my intention, however, to make a long statement because the committee on marine and fisheries made quite an extensive and exhaustive examination of the estimates of the Department of Fisheries and of the administration of the department. For those members of this committee who are not familiar with the membership of the standing committee on marine and fisheries, I want to assure them that all parties were represented on that committee by men who are thoroughly familiar with some phase or other of the fishing industry and between them had a very large and comprehensive knowledge of the fishing industry on both coasts and the inland lakes in all its phases. I must say their activities in that committee were most constructive. I should like, however, at this time to make a few general comments on the state of fishing in this country over the last year or so.
Last year was a highly profitable one for the British Columbia fishermen and also produced satisfactory results for most sectors of the Atlantic coast industry. The brightest feature of the Pacific coast industry was the near record catch of sockeye salmon. This came to 74 million pounds, worth $20 million. There had been high hopes for the dominant Adams river run, but even the most optimistic predictions of the scientists were surpassed. The total pack of canned sockeye was 1,100,000 48-pound cases and this was just short of the all-time record made in 1905. It came to more than half the pack of all species of salmon which reached 1,900,000 cases. However, the average prices paid to fishermen for sockeye and the reduced supply of pinks were slightly below 1957 levels. However, the total of all salmon landed, 181,300,000 pounds, represented an increase of 49,400,000 pounds over the 1957 catch and brought a record landed value of $37,100,000.
The 1958 Pacific halibut fishery also showed an improvement over 1957, both in quantity and value. Canadian fishermen landed 28,900,000 pounds, 5,100,000 pounds of this in United States ports. The catch was 3,800,000


George Roy McWilliam: Mr. Chairman, the committee thanks the minister for his statement which presented a very good over-all picture of the Canadian fishing industry last year and what the department hopes for in the year to come. The minister's statement to the committee once again, in my opinion, left the members with the view that the minister is trying to do the best job possible for the fisheries.
On the whole, the administration of the fisheries department is considered to be very good. The Newfoundland bait service left something to be desired this year and last year and the matter of the availability of lobster bait this year in many parts of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick caused concern at the start of the season. The loss of fish export
had adverse effects on the fisheries of that province. I feel that I should state here, however, that markets are primarily the responsibility of the Department of Trade and Commerce. Nevertheless, that fact should not lessen the efforts of the Department of Fisheries in respect of markets for fish.
The minister's statement before the marine and fisheries committee gave a resume of existing conditions which assisted materially in the discussions of that committee. In passing, Mr. Chairman, may I say that I wonder why the word "marine" appears in the title of the committee on fisheries. Having regard to the many and varied problems that face the Department of Fisheries, both new ones and continuing ones

some which require negotiation with other countries, others that are complicated as between provinces; also problems within local fishing areas-the minister and his officials both here in Ottawa and in the field are, I am sure, deserving of appreciation and credit for their efforts and their desire to bring about the best possible solution under existing circumstances and in many cases complex aspects.
My opening remarks prompt me to state once again-and this is a personal view- that the status of the Department of Fisheries should be raised. The departmental estimates should be increased toward accelerating and expanding this most important department of government. As conditions and markets change in other industries, so do conditions and markets change in the primary industry of fisheries. These changes demand more research, better methods of processing and marketing, better methods of production, if we are to produce a product that will warrant higher prices to the trade and at the same time mean a saving to the consumer and a better price to the primary producer.
While efforts to cut down costs in the departmental estimates are commendable and pleasing I am sure to the Minister of Finance in this period of deficit financing, costs should not be cut down on phases of the department's work that require expansion to improve the industry. As the Atlantic provinces' outlook as an industrial area does not appear to hold very bright prospects, emphasis should be placed on fishing and farming in order to help stabilize the economy of these provinces. I trust that the minister will be able to convince his cabinet colleagues, particularly the Minister of Finance, that there is a vital necessity and expediency for an increased share of public moneys to do the complete job for fisheries that is necessary as a safeguard for the industry's future.

Supply-Fisheries
It does not take a northern vision to realize what is necessary for the future of the fishing industry. Canada's oldest primary producer has not kept pace with rapid advances throughout the years to the same extent as other industries particularly in terms of financial income to the primary producers and the methods of production and marketing.
In this year's main estimates the total vote for the Department of Fisheries is $19,544,777, a decrease of approximately $269,554 from last year's main estimates. The supplementary estimates recently tabled include further items in the amount of $1,788,090. It is encouraging to note that further moneys will be provided for economics services, industrial development and for conservation services. I trust that there is no sizeable decrease in moneys for essential services this year. If there has been a decrease in any of these votes, outside the major projects mentioned by the minister in the marine and fisheries committee, I ask the minister if he will advise the committee where decreases were made and why.
There is a phase of the department's work about which I wish to make some remarks. The many reports heard from maritime sources-reports heard from reliable fishermen with long experience in both commercial and sport fishing-leave the impression that an exhaustive survey should be made towards instituting a better program of protection and conservation. I am sure the department is aware of this situation and probably has considered plans to extend the present program but is not able to do so because sufficienl moneys are not voted by parliament.
The additional information gathered by an exhaustive survey, together with information now in the possession of the department, could be the basis for a comprehensive study of an adequate conservation and protective system. In this connection I make particular reference to conservation and protection for the propagation of salmon and lobster.
The department's staff in the field directed by officials at Ottawa is doing a good job in so far as a good job can be done by a staff inadequate in number. There are many miles of water to patrol, many spawning areas to protect, which cannot be adequately patrolled and protected by a staff that is too few in numbers.
Mr. Chairman, at this time may I make brief reference to the plans of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources for very large additions to its staff for expansion in Canada's northland. It is my firm conviction that the development of Canada's oldest industry-fisheries-should hold priority over the development of a part

of our country which is sparsely inhabited, and that the inherent rights of those Canadians and their ancestors who have made a great contribution to the building up of this country should not be disregarded when consideration is given to the financial assistance necessary to place the fishing industry on the highest possible plane. The development of Canada's northland is essential. However, it should be developed in accordance with a long range plan to be brought about when the ills of our populated areas have been solved, not at the expense of other parts of the country.
These last remarks, Mr. Chairman, bring me back to something which I have been promoting for years-the need for an expansion in all branches of the Department of Fisheries. The assistance given by governments to western wheat and grain farmers is well known and, may I add, not always understood by people in other parts of Canada. It has been criticized on the basis that similar assistance in a comparable degree is not provided for other primary producers.
I stated previously that the total amount to be voted for the Department of Fisheries in the main estimates for the year 1959-60 is $19,544,777. In comparison it will be noted that according to the figures in the estimates book there are 20 other departments of government which will be voted more moneys than the Department of Fisheries. These votes range from $21 million to $1,750 million. For example, the estimates of the Department of Agriculture amount to $106 million, and here are some other figures: Atomic Energy $32 million; Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, $70 million; national research council, $30 million; northern affairs and national resources, $85 million. As I say, the expenditure is topped by the Department of National Defence with a vote of $1,750 million.
Mr. Chairman, if the members of this house representing constituencies which have fishing interests would join together in an attempt to raise the status of the Department of Fisheries to its proper level and ensure that moneys were made available to do all the things which could and should be done to improve our fishing industry, then a notable service would be performed in the best interests of our country and in the interest of an industry which is essential not only to our national economy but also to the health of our nation.
There are three matters I wish to draw to the attention of the minister at this time. They do not come completely within the jurisdiction of the minister, but they are of direct concern to the fishing industry and in consequence I judge my references to them to be in order under the general item

now under discussion. On June 5, when the estimates of the Public Works Department were before the committee. I requested the Minister of Public Works to have a complete survey made of Miramichi waters in preparation for the construction of small landings and improved facilities, in addition to dredging, to assist the Miramichi fishing industry. At that time I urged the minister to seek the co-operation of the Minister of Fisheries in this task, and I now ask the Minister of Fisheries to make representations with a view to having this survey made. May I suggest, also, that the survey be a physical, on the spot survey, and that information be obtained from fishermen actively engaged in the industry as to the need for facilities. I suggest, also, that the economic branch of the Department of Public Works should not look on these suggested small projects with a jaundiced eye of a hard-shell banker, but that other factors be considered besides the actual dollar return on the costs, because these small landings and other improved facilities will increase the over-all volume and value of the fishery and in a short time results will prove that the expenditures were warranted, to say nothing of the fact that the hard task of the fisherman will in some measure have been alleviated.
Another subject that I wish to raise concerns loans under the Fisheries Improvement Loans Act. Earlier this session when the bill to extend the life of this act was before the house suggestions were made that more extensive advertising should be undertaken in order to acquaint fishermen of the provisions of this measure. I trust that the officials of the fisheries department have urged the Department of Finance to conduct a wider advertising campaign in this regard. I hold in my hand a pamphlet issued under the imprint of the Queen's printer. It outlines the procedure to be followed in making application for the loan, and the last subheading in the pamphlet reads: "See the manager of your local bank or credit union". I had personal experience in this connection in the course of efforts to assist certain fishermen with their applications for loans, and I found that local bank managers had very little knowledge of the act and still less of the regulations, for the reason that they had never been furnished with pamphlets or other data. As a result valuable time was spent in securing clarification from the Department of Finance and from federal fisheries officials.
On the basis of this experience I judge that the same situation exists in many localities, or that it did exist, and I strongly urge that steps be taken, if they have not already been taken since the recent request 66968-9-395
Supply-Fisheries
was made, to forward to banks and credit unions in fishing areas complete information in both official languages about this act.
I wish also to solicit the minister's support of amendments at the next session to increase the repayment period permissible for loans under this act for the purchase or construction of fishing equipment, and I urge the hon. gentleman to make representations along these lines to the Minister of Finance. I hope the act may be amended so that instead of the present three-year repayment term we may be able to take advantage of a graduated plan of repayments over a period up to eight years depending upon the amount of the loan requested. This period of up to eight years is suggested because certain other loans under this act are linked with an eight-year repayment period.
It is not my intention to discuss at this time local aspects of Miramichi fisheries. In the past I have placed certain views on the record. I have discussed local matters with the officials of the departments and I shall have further discussions and correspondence as representations reach me from Miramichi fishermen's association and other interested groups. However, there are two questions about which I wish to make a comment at this time in regard to telegrams which I have received. On July 15 I received the following telegram from the chairman of the fishermen's association:
Miramichi salmon drift net fishermen are disappointed that after recent disaster lift period was not eliminated but just rotated which is no direct assistance. Drifters now request they be allowed to fish through to August 15 as requested by prior representation from this association. Copy of this wire sent to Hon. Angus MacLean and Hon. R. Pichette. Sgd. H. G. Crocker, chairman.
I also received a telegram this afternoon in this connection. It is dated July 17, and reads as follows:
Drifters would like you to remind minister setting back of lift period was suggestion of private individual and not their request or that of Hon. Mr. Pichette. With mackerel a failure next two weeks looks grim for these men. Sgd. H. G. Crocker.
I wish now to make reference to the representations recently made by the Miramichi commercial fishermen's association for the advancement of the opening date of the Miramichi smelt fishing season to October 15 from the present date of October 30. I know the minister will give sympathetic consideration to these matters. I appreciate the problems he faces in the conservation of the fisheries. We realize that conservation is of prime importance. I know that the fishermen of Miramichi have an understanding of

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his difficulties and they know that whatever decision the minister reaches will be arrived at on sound grounds.
I trust that the future holds a general improvement in the fishing industry and that the Department of Fisheries will get a larger share of the public purse next year to carry out the improvements that are needed and that our lost fish export markets will be regained and new ones promoted.
I wish now to comment on the tragic storm of June 20 that took the lives of 35 Miramichi salmon fishermen and caused extensive damage including the loss of boats and nets and considerable damage to lobster traps. Of the 35 men and boys who lost their lives 13 are accounted for and 22 are still missing. There were several family groups among the fatalities including fathers, sons and brothers. Eighty-three children have been left fatherless. Twenty widows with 83 children have been left with no means of livelihood. Four mothers who were previously dependent on their sons are now left without support. They face a bleak future until their children come of age and can provide support.
A disaster fund is being raised from subscriptions. On behalf of the families and the district I wish to express appreciation for the donations that have been made. The care of the widows and their children will be a continuing problem for many years to come and it is hoped that the disaster fund will reach the required amount.
With regard to assistance for the replacement of boats, salmon nets and lobster traps, I believe this assistance should be provided by the federal and provincial governments at the earliest possible time so the fishermen can get back into the industry at the former level of production.
The Minister of Veterans Affairs, New Brunswick's representative in the federal cabinet, when expressing his sympathy over the tragic storm, said in part as reported at page 4988 of Hansard of June 22:
-everything possible will be done to see that help is given these needy families in the way of restoring equipment and gear.
These were most welcome words which helped to ease the feeling of the stricken families that all was lost.
On June 30, as reported at page 5269 of Hansard of that date, I asked the Minister of Fisheries if any plans had been formulated to date toward rendering assistance to Miramichi salmon drifters and lobster fishermen. In reply the minister stated in part that the department provides a subsidized insurance system for fishermen with regard to boats and lobster traps. The minister also stated

that in many cases he believed insurance was carried and that in cases where insurance was not carried, that in the event of a disaster of this type the first responsibility rested with the provincial level of government. The minister qualified this statement by saying:
I am sure that any requests which may come through that channel for assistance would be very sympathetically considered by this government.
It therefore appears that the federal government will assess damages and make payments where insurance was carried and will give consideration to assistance for loss and damage where no insurance coverage was carried upon request from the government of the province of New Brunswick. It is my contention that both levels of government should provide assistance for losses suffered as has been done in other cases and that the disaster fund raised by public subscriptions should not have to be used to replace boats, nets and lobster traps.
The present situation among the salmon drift net and lobster fishermen of the south shore of the Miramichi bay is grim and bleak. Most of the fishermen were in debt for their boats and nets prior to the storm and if assistance is not forthcoming they will be burdened with larger debt and in many cases may not be able to secure the credit to purchase new equipment. Most of the boats, nets _ and lobster traps that were salvaged are m need of extensive repairs which add to the burden of debt.
If no request has been received to date from the provincial government I appeal to the minister to take immediate steps to contact the provincial government with respect to working out a plan of assistance, as it is vital that no time be lost in deciding what joint action will be taken. These primary producers should be rendered assistance in their hour of need. Hon. members of this committee and Canadians generally are familiar with other forms of assistance granted by the federal government on a great number of occasions in cases where the need was not as great and without attendant tragic circumstances as in this instance.
Preliminary reports disclose that out of 53 boats lost in the Miramichi bay-Northum-berland strait area, 23 were covered by insurance under the fishermen's indemnity plan. At this time I do not have the actual number of boats of the Escuminac fleet that were lost and were not covered by insurance but I feel safe in assuming that more than half would not have been covered.
A greater loss in terms of dollar value was suffered in the loss and damage of lobster traps on which, unfortunately, no

insurance was carried. As nets were not insurable under the indemnity plan, a complete loss was suffered on this type of gear. The nets that were salvaged sustained a 50 per cent loss of value and subsequent length of time of usage over and above the cost of repairs.
A temporary formula to provide for the immediate needs of the stricken families has been set up and disbursements are being made from the publicly subscribed relief fund. A permanent formula will be drafted when the total amount of the fund is known. Much more money is needed and further appeals are being made to provide the necessities of life for the widows and children, both for the immediate future and in the years ahead. On their behalf I appeal to the generosity of all who can make contributions, large or small, to do so. Donations will be accepted at any branch of the Royal Bank of Canada.


Charles Edward Rea: I am very sorry to interrupt the hon. member but I am obliged to tell him that his time has expired.


George Roy McWilliam: I have only two or three more sentences, Mr. Chairman.


Charles Edward Rea: Is it the wish of the committee to give unanimous consent?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


George Roy McWilliam: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the indulgence of the committee. Since the tragic storm, requests have been made for adequate aids to navigation and for an improved system of reporting the weather and in particular advancing storms. The Minister of Transport has given me assurance that he will look into this matter immediately. Many such improvements can be made in the fishing area of Miramichi bay, improvements that would prevent loss of life, the lack of which was brought out so dramatically on June 20.
It is also pleasing to note that the provincial government officials have taken action toward gaining recognition for the acts of heroism that were performed by the fishermen. The acting premier of New Brunswick, the Hon. Mr. Skaling, has already made efforts in this direction.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I again wish to express my deepest heartfelt sympathy to the bereaved families, and I trust divine providence and sympathetic support in some measure will help them in their time of great sorrow, not only in a spiritual way but also in a material way.
I also wish once again on behalf of the constituents I represent to express appreciation to all those who assisted in the search 66968-9-3954
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and rescue and to all those who made contributions to the disaster fund; also a special word of appreciation to Her Majesty the Queen and Prince Philip for the gift they made to this fund. It is pleasing to note that arrangements are being made to transport the widows an dtheir children to Pointe du Chene, New Brunswick, to meet the Queen. At that time she can add a personal note of expression to her previous message of condolence.
I wish to end, Mr. Chairman, on a note expressing the hope that nothing will be left undone in the humanitarian efforts that must be put forth by both governments and all others who are able to assist, so that efforts will not be found wanting, efforts that will forever have the deepest appreciation of the bereaved families and all the people of the stricken area.


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, first on behalf of the C.C.F. representation in the house- I am sure I am speaking with a unanimous voice on this occasion, anyway-I would like to express our appreciation not only of the manner in which the minister has been able to grasp the vastly complex problems within the department but of the genial and sincere way in which he always discusses the questions relating to his department. I have the greatest admiration for the minister in this regard. In his spare moments I think he might be able to find some extra curricular occupation by giving some guidance in this matter to such gentlemen as the Minister of Finance and other cabinet ministers. I should also like to express our appreciation of the attitude and of the work conducted by the members of the minister's staff, the scientists, biologists and others who work unceasingly for the promotion of fisheries questions and for the development of our fisheries in Canada and for the consumption of fish by Canadians and others.
As the minister said, these departmental estimates were dealt with rather extensively in the committee, but as I mentioned to the minister when I met him in the corridor one day, he should have arranged to bring his estimates before the house as soon as the committee was over and he would have got them through right away. The longer the delay the more problems arise that require additional discussion.
I should like to make reference to two or three specific matters, and in the process pose some questions to the minister. In the committee's proceedings, if I can make reference to one or two pages as a preface, on Friday, April 10, at page 45, following some discussion about the knowledge of trawlers and other fishing vessels from the

Private Bills
Soviet union which were sighted out in the Pacific and so on, the minister had this comment to make:
Mr. Chairman, the department has some information regarding Russian trawlers that are now fishing in the Bering sea. Reports indicate that there are about 42 trawlers, six refrigeration ships, a tug and a transport.
Farther on he said:
As yet, we have no indication that this Russian fleet is fishing any types of fish that are covered by any treaties now in effect.
I have some special interest here in so far as the salmon fisheries are concerned, because it is known there is an intermingling area out in that particular area where the Soviet trawlers were noticed. Can the minister give us any additional information about the activities of those particular Soviet ships that were sighted out in the Bering sea and in other parts? Can he give us the information he has at the moment which might be additional to that which he gave to the committee on April 10? However, there is a problem which might arise out of the activities of fishing vessels in so far as our salmon fisheries on the west coast are concerned? A problem might arise out of fishing vessels which belong to countries which are not signatories to the north Pacific fisheries treaty, such as are Japan, the United States and Canada, if the Soviet union is fishing in waters far from its own shores. Even though at the moment it may not be fishing for fish that we in British Columbia are concerned with; nevertheless the possibility is there because of technological changes and the size of the fish that the Soviet fishermen can take out in the fishing areas which are now restricted to fishing by the Pacific fisheries commission. It is five o'clock, Mr. Chairman.


Charles Edward Rea: It being five o'clock, it is my duty, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, to leave the chair to permit the house to proceed to the consideration of private and public bills.
Progress reported.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock, the house will proceed to the consideration of private bills, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.



PRIVATE BILLS

Mr. McCleave:: Mr. Speaker, I understood there was agreement among the parties that we would proceed with the estimates this afternoon.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house agreeable to waive the hour for private and public bills?


John Whitney Pickersgill: So far as we are concerned, sir.


Frank Howard: Do you see how co-operative we are?


Mr. Speaker:: By unanimous consent, the period provided by standing order 15, section 3, for the consideration of private and public bills is waived and the house will revert to the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES

[Stage Direction]
127. Departmental administration, $398,000.
Frank Howard: There is a problem, Mr. Chairman, that could arise not only from the soviet fishing boats but, as indicated in the committee, from fishing boats that might come from the mainland of China which could be fishing in the intermingling area where salmon from the British Columbia coast and the British Columbia rivers spend a great deal of the time of their younger and maturing life. The only thing now which prevents Canada, the United States and Japan from fishing in that particular area, as was pointed out in the committee, is that we have no jurisdiction over the area nor does any other country. It is the high seas and they are completely open. I believe it would be well worth while for the department in conjunction with the Department of External Affairs, if they have not already done so, to start laying the ground work for discussions and consultations with other nations on the Pacific who might be engaged in the salmon fishing industry in order to protect as much as we can our own fisheries in the province of British Columbia. I am sure that other countries would be equally as interested.
However, if the Soviet union and the Chinese get to the stage of having boats of the required size, become interested in fishing in this area and are allowed to move in there and fish and catch immature salmon, British Columbia salmon spawned in the rivers of that province, we may find it will have a very detrimental affect upon the development of the fishery and increasing the numbers of salmon. I will not say that it will ruin our salmon fishery completely on the west coast but it could have a very detrimental effect.
I hope that discussions of this nature are under way at the international level to ensure that the conservation methods we have practised in conjunction with the United

States and Japan under the north Pacific fisheries commission will be followed by other countries who may be interested in fishing there and so that these countries will be able to participate in a new treaty or an expanded treaty providing that conservation practices will be followed by all countries that may want to fish in that particular area.
We had some discussion in the committee with respect to transferring part of the jurisdiction now in the hands of the Minister of Agriculture with respect to the administration of the Cold Storage Act with the idea of the Minister of Fisheries having under his jurisdiction that part of the administration having to do with the provision of cold storage facilities for fish or, on the other hand, the introduction of new legislation to give him that jurisdiction. There might then be a little more consideration given to fisheries cold storage facilities than is now being given under the Department of Agriculture. In this regard I should like to remind the minister of what he said in the standing committee. I want to place his remarks on Hansard as close as possible to the remarks which I hope he will make in this connection. As found in the proceedings of the standing committee on marine and fisheries, page 68, the minister had this to say. I will not read all of his comment but only the latter part having to do with cold storage for fish. He said:
However, I can say that it certainly will be considered. I appreciate the members of the committee raising this question because it appears to have merit which at least makes it worthy of consideration.
The minister was dealing with the cold storage question. It will be recalled that the same matter was raised on the estimates of the Department of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture said he would take it under advisement and engage in some sort of consultation with the Minister of Fisheries. I would appreciate some indication from the minister as to the progress of these consultations and when we may expect the transfer to take place in order that those engaged in the provision of cold storage facilities for the fishing industry will receive better consideration of their applications for subsidies than they have had from the Department of Agriculture since the minister now in charge took office.
I should also like to comment on one other specific matter connected particularly with the Fraser river which is the most important fish river in British Columbia. Quite a controversy has raged in the past few years which is erroneously referred to as the fish versus power controversy. There are interests
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in British Columbia who want to develop the Fraser river for power purposes and have wanted to do so far quite a number of years. So far the fisheries department has been able to convince those interested in developing the Fraser that if they do develop it for power purposes they will ruin the river so far as fishing is concerned and the results will be far more detrimental than beneficial.
In this regard a couple of articles have come to my attention which have appeared in various publications. One appeared in the October, 1958 issue of The B.C. Professional Engineer. The article is entitled, "Multiple Purpose Development of the Fraser River Basin". It is written by Mr. Val Gwyther, professional engineer, who refers to himself as a member of the Fraser river multiple use committee. That is a very imposing title. One would think that it was a rather responsible committee but the Fraser river multiple use committee is financed by the B.C. Electric Company which is primarily interested in developing hydroelectric power and not too interested in fish.
I submit that Mr. Gwyther, who is a civil engineer, may know his civil engineering but he knows relatively little about fish biology. It is unfortunate that this type of erroneous propaganda which is being disseminated by Mr. Gwyther and the left arm of the B.C. Electric Company, the Fraser river multiple use committee, is receiving the publicity that it is. These are not my own thoughts on the matter. Comments were made about this particular article in a letter written to Mr. Gwyther by Mr. Milo Moore, director of fisheries at Washington. Part of that letter is reproduced in the publication of the fisheries association of British Columbia for March, 1959. With regard to Mr. Val Gwyther's attempt to promote the interests of the B.C. Electric Company, Mr. Moore says:
The statements you made in your recent speech regarding the fish handling facilities are not correct when you state . . . high survival; in fact, no mortality.
Then there is this quotation from Mr. Moore's letter as reproduced here:
If we are to receive the full confidence of the general public for our program, the above type of publicity must be curtailed as much as possible.
These are not my words. They are the words of a person who has spent quite a number of years in fisheries work. The B.C. Professional Engineer, which published this article by Val Gwyther, also published another article which appeared in the March, 1959 edition, by Mr. C. H. Clay and Dr. P. A. Larkin, both of whom have been engaged in fisheries projects with the Department of Fisheries and with the University of British

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Columbia. Their article contradicted the erroneous information given by Mr. Gwy-ther. It is unfortunate that the editorial board of the University of British Columbia alumni Chronicle should have been sucked in by this Mr. Gwyther and carried in a recent edition of their publication an article by the same gentleman setting forth the same type of false ideas which, if accepted, would lead to the ruination of the Fraser as a fish river.
In this regard I inquired of the minister in the house a few days ago whether this had been drawn to his attention and I discovered afterwards that some people had interpreted my remarks to mean that the minister should engage in some sort of censorship and be in a position to direct the U.B.C. alumni Chronicle as to what they should or should not publish. This, of course, was not my intention. I read the words over again and I still could not read that interpretation into them. All I was attempting to do then was to wonder whether or not the minister could arrange to request the U.B.C. alumni Chronicle to make a similar amount of space available for an article similar to that written in the B.C. Professional Engineer, Dr. Larkin and Mr. Scott, in order to get the side of the picture across which supports the thought that fisheries are more use than hydroelectric development.
It is unfortunate, too, that a publication of the stature, and a responsible one at that, of the U.B.C. alumni Chronicle could be used for the purpose of publishing an article by a person who, judging by the comments made, has relatively little knowledge of the biology of fish. I understand that the U.B.C. alumni Chronicle will agree to publishing an additional article later setting forth the point of view that supports the fishery. I am not the only one who was upset over these articles which appeared in the U.B.C. alumni Chronicle. Mr. James Sinclair, who was formerly minister of fisheries and who is now president of the fish association of British Columbia, has also indicated his displeasure at this particular article, as has Senator Tom Reid, who is chairman of the international Pacific salmon fisheries commission. These are two very responsible and respected members of society in public life who have taken a large interest in the fisheries question for a number of years. I hope that through their efforts and through the efforts of the Department of Fisheries, such misleading, erroneous and incorrect articles as Mr. Val Gwyther has written under the auspices of the Fraser river multiple use committee, which is nothing more than an organization financed by the B.C. Electric Company, will be

counteracted. I hope we will be able to get across to the general public a more correct impression of the fish and power question.


Mr. Tucker:: Mr. Chairman, now that consideration is being given to fisheries I can avail myself of this opportunity to study the over-all picture in connection with this subject. The particular consideration we give to this matter must be applied more specifically to those provinces wherein the fisheries play such an important part in their economy and way of life. I refer primarily to the Atlantic provinces, and in particular to the province of Newfoundland.
The encouragement and assistance given to the fisheries of Newfoundland over the past 10 years have been all too inadequate to keep abreast of the times and to make returns profitable for those engaged therein. The establishment of much needed bait depots and freezing plants has been too long delayed, and they have not been established in the proportion required by the fishing population. Give us the tools and we will do the job is a phrase that could be aptly applied to the fisheries of Newfoundland. The government of Canada has not supplied the necessary tools.
I believe, Mr. Chairman, that unemployment insurance as it applies to fishermen should be reconsidered and a new scheme should be developed. At present, under the Unemployment Insurance Act the benefits to fishermen are uncertain and artificial because in years when the fishery is good the fishermen can qualify for good benefits but in poor seasons when the fishermen need help the most unemployment insurance benefits are small. Unemployment insurance should be supplemented by some provision like the prairie farm assistance to meet failures in the fishery.
Newfoundland will always be in the fishing industry and all the new processes for offering this fish for sale in the markets of the world still depend primarily on the fish being caught and made. This catching and making of the fish is the point at which new methods and new approaches are required. This problem should receive early consideration from the federal government because we cannot have a prosperous Canada without having a sound and practical means for having a good fishery each year.
The fisheries of Canada need help in finding methods that are practical and cheap for catching and curing the fish. The methods used in Canada today are too expensive, and we need to produce the finished product much cheaper. Canadian fish are sold in the markets of the world, and these markets should be explored and expanded and new

outlets for the sale of our fish should be secured. In short, our fisheries need a complete overhaul in order to place them on a sound commercial basis so that extra Canadian capital could be encouraged to invest in our fisheries.
Unless and until the federal government shoulders its responsibility and shows the way, private interests will not take the lead in investing the capital that is needed to help expand this most important aspect of our economy. The fisheries, therefore, will always remain with us as a very uncertain means of livelihood for so many of our people. I would suggest that the federal government give early and earnest consideration to further assistance to the fisheries, and that a full investigation into our fisheries be made forthwith with a view to making our Canadian fisheries a more worth-while part of our Canadian economy.
I should like to speak for a few minutes about the sealing industry in Newfoundland, the seal fishery. In 1857 approximately 13,000 men prosecuted the seal fishery in 400 sealing ships from Newfoundland. Last spring only two ships participated from Newfoundland, and while the industry is diminishing in Newfoundland it has increased in Nova Scotia where, last spring, eight ships took part in the hunt, as a result of the enterprise of Norwegians who became Canadians after the war, and two private firms, the Sea Traders and George Shaw Limited. In addition to the ships from Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, each year Norwegian ships take part in the seal fishery off the coast of Newfoundland which is known as the front. These Norwegian ships have been coming to Newfoundland for years, and it is not understandable how these ships can come from Norway and make a profitable voyage while we in Canada do not seem to be able to do much about it. At one time, even when the value of the dollar was very low, the industry had a value of more than $1.75 million. In my opinion, this industry should be given serious consideration. The killing date should be deferred until March 10 and the killing of old seals should be prohibited. No ship should be allowed to make a second trip.
A couple of months ago the entire crew of the fishing boat Blue Wave, who were fishing off the coast of Newfoundland, were drowned. A few weeks ago a storm occurred off the coast of New Brunswick and took the lives of 35 fishermen, leaving 20 women husbandless and 83 children fatherless. Immediately appeals were made on their behalf. While the general public responded generously, as it always does, I feel that the time is long
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past when we should have statutory provisions with respect to help and care for the wives and children of those brave men whose lot it is to go to the sea in ships and do their business in great waters. Instead of leaving the families to uncertainty, a national policy should be established.


Mr. Winch:: Are you in favour of a disaster fund?


James Roy Tucker: Yes.


Harold Edward Winch: That is good.


James Roy Tucker: I hope the present minister will continue his keen interest in the workings of his department and will continue community stages, bait depots and other benefits as long as they are proving beneficial to the fishermen in Newfoundland.


Mr. Carter:: The various items of these estimates were gone over very carefully in the standing committee on fisheries. I think perhaps it would be advisable to make comments of a general nature on the first item rather than having comments on each item separately. The committee was greatly impressed by the frank and honest manner in which the minister replied to our questions in committee and by the industry which he has shown in tackling the problems of his department. I should like to pay my personal tribute to the minister for his sincerity of purpose and for the non-partisan approach which he has made to all the problems that we have brought to his attention. I should also like to express my appreciation of the sympathetic consideration which we have always received from the deputy minister and his various officials in connection with the various matters which we have had to bring before them. While I am expressing appreciation I want to include also my appreciation for the dinner which the minister's department tendered to the fisheries committee. It was a special occasion of rejoicing for me because it was the first time in my recollection that the lowly salt cod has ever been elevated beyond soup chowder, the first dish on the menu.
I should like to make a few remarks about the community stage program. In my opinion the community stage program is an excellent idea and one that offers great promise in the development, particularly of our shore fisheries in Newfoundland. I think it was unfortunate that it should have been introduced as part of a winter works program because I believe that fact to some degree reduced the benefits that such a program is capable of producing.
Several handicaps have resulted from the way in which this program was worked out

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in my own riding. In the first place these stages were placed in communities in which perhaps they were not most needed from the standpoint of the fishery but in which there was the most need for work. There was therefore a clash between the two purposes. There was some dissatisfaction in my own riding also owing to the fact that there seemed to be two different kinds of community stage program. There was one kind of program in which the fishermen received pay for their labour in building the stages and there was another program in which the fishermen were compelled to provide free labour. When two communities a few miles apart find that they are being treated differently, this fact is bound to lead to some dissatisfaction. However, that consideration should not be permitted to detract from the program itself which I think should be improved and extended.
There is a great need for this type of program in my own riding for two reasons. One is that more people are being forced to return to the fisheries after a great many years and because they have been away from the fisheries for so long their private fishing premises have all deteriorated and fallen apart; and they are not in a position to rebuild. This is a situation which could be turned to good account because I think it will make for much better control of the quality of production if we can have the fish in a settlement processed and taken care of in one building or at one spot, instead of at numerous different spots scattered around the harbour.
Another advantage resulting from the community stage is that it affords the fisherman a protection which normally should be provided by competition. In Newfoundland there is not very much competition in the purchase of fresh fish or of salt fish. The various salt fish processing plants offer much the same price and it is a very low one, ranging perhaps from one and a quarter cents to two and three-quarter cents a pound. The same is true of people who buy salt fish. They all offer practically the same price too. The protection for the fisherman against this kind of situation is that he, through a community stage such as this, has a choice of either selling his fish fresh or putting it under salt. That is a great advantage.
I hope it will not be too long before a third advantage will be tried out. Yesterday I brought to the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who I see is still in his seat, the possibility of getting together with the Minister of Fisheries in order to see whether an experiment cannot be carried out whereby small cod fish which is perhaps too small to be processed by a salt fish plant

or to be put under salt might be put up in tins. I think we should try this out and see if we can find a market for this tinned fish in some of the countries of Africa and Asia. I do not think it is something that can be done on a big scale but I think it is worth while looking into. If the experiment proved to be successful, perhaps the fishermen's stages might also be extended to include small canneries.
The next point I should like to bring to the attention of the minister is that the production of light salted fish is still going down while the production of heavy salted fish is going up. It was the light salted fish that made Newfoundland famous and which originally created the demand for Newfoundland's salt fish in the markets of the world. Light salted fish production declined from 66,418 quintals in the first six months of last year to 46,610 quintals for the first six months of this year, but heavy salted products went up from 94,000 quintals during the same period last year to 115,000 this year. It is in the interest of the Newfoundland fisheries to encourage the production of light salted fish. The Prime Minister, during the election campaign, I think, promised that a floor price would be established under salt fish. That is something which the fishermen have always wanted, but it is something that is not easy to accomplish. I think it would be much easier to work out some plan whereby more emphasis might be placed on and more encouragement given to the production of light salted fish for which there is always a good market.
The bait service has during the past two years encountered some very unfortunate handicaps in that bait has been scarce when we needed it most. The minister told us in committee that the portable bait depots have proved successful and that a number of new ones are planned for this year and, I hope, for succeeding years. I want to plead with the minister to make sure the south coast riding gets its fair share of these portable depots. We feel we were a little on the short end of the community stage program because we only got two out of 20 stages for Newfoundland. We hope that this position will be corrected as time goes on. I mention this now so that the minister will make sure that the same thing does not happen with respect to the portable bait depots.
As the hon. member for Northumberland-Miramichi has mentioned, we were all shocked by the disaster which happened to the New Brunswick fishermen in the storm on June 20, and our sympathy and the sympathy of my constituents goes out to the dependants

of those men. This is a reminder of a similar tragedy which occurred in my own riding last February when, as the hon. member for Trinity-Conception recalled, the dragger Blue Wave was lost with all hands. As a result of that disaster, 16 men were lost, leaving behind them 15 widows and 40 children. So we know what the people of New Brunswick are going through, because that has been our sad lot many times in our history. In fact, I have no hesitation in saying that there are more fishermen's widows in my riding than there are in all the rest of Newfoundland.
I mention that to emphasize to the minister and his officials that the south coast riding which I represent is one part of Newfoundland where fishermen can and do fish all the year around. I think that fact should be given a little more consideration than it has been given in the past, particularly when programs such as community stage programs are being drawn up. Very often these programs are shared out on a basis of population or some other basis, but while we may not produce as much fish as the northeast coast, the need is still very great, and we must recognize and utilize to the fullest extent the fact that the south coast is the one part of Newfoundland where the fishery can be prosecuted throughout the whole year.
Finally, I wish to bring to the minister's attention the need for a bounty on draggers over 65 feet in length. Unless something is done to enable our fishing companies to secure new draggers, modern and up to date, the fishery in Newfoundland will not survive. At present these draggers cost so much that our fishing firms cannot afford to purchase them and as a second choice they are compelled to go to the United States and purchase second-hand draggers which are to a large extent worn out and obsolete. Moreover, because they are old and obsolete the fishery cannot be operated so economically as it should be. There is a great need here, and I hope the minister will find some way of meeting it.
The other point I wish to make is that the regulations governing the inspection of draggers might well be revised. The loss of the Blue Wave which I mentioned a few minutes ago recalled to the minds of our fishermen the fact that several boats of this type have met with similar accidents and have only narrowly survived, sometimes merely by chance, and there is some question in the minds of our people about the stability characteristics of these draggers, because they were not designed for fishing in waters where such severe icing conditions obtain as are experienced as in Newfoundland. Thus we
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have been wondering whether something might not be done by way of some regulation to safeguard fishermen by deterring them from overloading their vessels in winter or by introducing more rigid tests of stability during steamship inspections than those which obtain at present. I point out that although this vessel went down, there were other vessels of smaller and of different design which were out in exactly the same conditions, and which were able to survive and, in one case, even to render assistance to the Blue Wave. This is something which we feel should be looked into a little further to see whether or not some regulation cannot be established to make sure that these vessels are not only sound in construction and fitted with proper equipment and engines, but that their stability characteristics as such will stand up to the conditions under which they operate.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, I think it would save time if I were to reply to some of the questions that have been asked at this time rather than doing so under the individual items. The hon. member for Northumberland-Miramichi spoke of the problem of lobster bait in the maritimes. We have made several adjustments to try to accommodate that situation such as extending the season for alewives and things of that sort which we could do. I am grateful for the kind remarks made by various hon. members regarding the department and the efforts we are extending to further the interests of the industry for the benefit of the country as a whole.
In that connection I would like the committee to know that I believe it is recognized generally throughout the world that in Canada we have some of the finest fishery scientists and administrators in the world.
The hon. member for Northumberland-Miramichi mentioned a number of other points. I have made a note of these and will certainly take them into consideration. Some are to be brought to the attention of my colleagues, including the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Public Works and others, and that will certainly be done. I hesitate to admit it, but at the moment I also happen to be the acting Minister of Public Works. I will undertake to see that the questions relating to that department are brought to the attention of the regular minister.
The hon. member mentioned the possibility of eliminating the lift season for salmon fishing in Miramichi. That is still under consideration and no final decision has been reached. I think I may say the prospects for doing that are not very good. It is necessary to allow a reasonable escapement of the salmon so that they may carry on the

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propagation of the species for future years. After all, we do not want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, as it were, for a short term advantage. I might also say that this year the catch of salmon by drifters in this area has been better than for the last ten years and that is encouraging.
Several hon. members referred to the tragedy that took place in the constituency of the hon. member for Northumberland-Miramichi. It is the worst disaster for fishing vessels in that area for well over 100 years; indeed, since the tragic Yankee storm took place in 1851 when approximately 150 lost their lives. Another tragic disaster was that of the Blue Wave. I regret that I am not in a position to make any definite statement about a contribution by this government to the disaster fund but, as my colleague the Minister of Veterans Affairs has said, it is receiving sympathetic consideration and I trust that an announcement will be made within a short time.
The hon. member for Skeena raised the question of Russian trawlers operating in the Bering sea. There is a considerable fleet operating there. The number varies and has gone as high as 80 vessels. Included in that number are transports, tugs and supply ships. They are not all fishing vessels but it is a large and comprehensive fleet. The information we have is that they are not operating for either salmon or halibut at the present time but are confining their efforts to such species as flounders, Pacific cod and pollock. This is something in which we are keenly interested and we will watch developments there very closely.
With respect to the transfer of some sections of the Cold Storage Act to my department, that has been considered to some extent by my officials. They have examined the question to determine what would be involved, what benefits might accrue, what increase in personnel would be required in the department, and so on. In the near future I hope to be in a position to take it up intelligently with my colleague the Minister of Agriculture to see whether any advantage would be gained by any change. I do not intend to suggest that the change will not be made but in the event it is not I wish to assure the hon. member that I appreciate the basic problem and I intend to follow it up with my colleague even if the administration remains with him.
The hon. members for Burin-Burgeo and Trinity-Conception mentioned several other points including the question of unemployment insurance for fishermen and the fact that in some cases it has not been satisfactory because it tends to give benefit to those

fishermen who are not the worst off. Taking Newfoundland as a whole the situation is not as black as it has been painted in this last year, relative to the previous year in any case.
I realize there are still many problems and small areas where the situation is much worse than others. There are no figures breaking it down in that way. However, I should like to put on record the fact that seasonal benefits to fishermen in the province of Newfoundland during 1958 totalled $2,515,974 and during 1959, totalled $2,570,482, approximately $340 and $280 per man respectively. This would indicate that although more fishermen qualified for benefits in 1958, relatively as well as absolutely their claims on the average were smaller, and the total aggregate paid was larger by a considerable amount. Approximately 30 per cent of the fishermen achieved part of their benefits from other types of employment.
I have taken careful note of the remarks made about community stage programs. We have eight additional portable bait depots on order and we will put them into spots where they seem to be most required. I am always very happy to receive representations from any hon. members concerned because we recognize that members of parliament are thoroughly familiar with the ground and any information they can give us is very welcome indeed.
The location of the community stages was based not only on the unemployment situation but also on the amount of fish and the number of fishermen and the potential in the area and on many other considerations. I might say that in all of the stages carried out under that program by this government all labour was paid for by us.
I think I have covered the most important points. If there are any others that I have not answered it is not because I am ignoring them. I will take careful note of everything that is said and see that the suggestions will be applied to the administration of the department where possible.


Chesley William Carter: I would like to clarify one point the minister made about those seasonal benefits. I think he read out the figure of $2,520,000 for the previous year and $2,280,000 this year.


John Angus MacLean: No. The figures for the first year are $2,515,974, and for this year up to April, $2,570,482.


Chesley William Carter: This year is more than last year?


John Angus MacLean: The aggregate is more but the average per man is less, because there were approximately 18,000 fishermen

operating in Newfoundland last year as compared with 16,000 and some odd the year before.


Chesley William Carter: The minister cannot tell the committee how much of those seasonal benefits went to fishermen, because it might be assumed by other hon. members that fishermen received all of these benefits, which I am sure is not the case. I am sure that is not what the minister wants to say.


John Angus MacLean: Yes, this is unemployment insurance for fishermen.


Mr.   Carier@: For fishermen only?


John Angus MacLean: For fishermen alone, but I might say that some of their stamps were acquired by other part-time seasonal work. They are the ones whose predominant employment was fishing.


Chesley William Carter: Can the minister give us the number of fishermen who received benefits?


John Angus MacLean: I do not think I have those exact figures. The total number qualified for benefits in the season just ended was 9,263; the year before, the number was 7,403.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
130. Industrial development service, $746,365.
John Whitney Pickersgill: In view of the fact that the experimental salt fish plant at Valley-field never had an official opening, would the minister consider this summer arranging to have some kind of meeting there so that the people interested in this work would have an opportunity to see what is going on?


John Angus MacLean: Yes, I shall be very pleased to give that consideration. I am afraid that plans for this summer have been in a state of suspended animation owing to the fact that no one has been able to predict accurately when prorogation might take place. Now, especially since there is a road to Valleyfield and other conveniences, consideration will be given to the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fisheries research board of Canada-
144. Operation and maintenance, including an amount of $50,000 for contributions toward fisheries research and for scholarships, $3,950,565.
Mr. Noble:: Mr. Chairman, being one of the few members of the fisheries committee representing the great lakes area, I feel it is my responsibility to make a few observations and suggestions in respect of the welfare of the industry in these, the most expansive and at one time the most productive bodies of fresh water in the world.
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At the outset I would like to join other members who have spoken in this debate and voice my appreciation of the tolerance and friendly attitude shown the members of the marine and fisheries committee by the minister and other officials of his department when they appeared at our deliberations. I would be remiss in my duty if I did not comment on the opportunity that was afforded all on the committee to gain a knowledge of the fishing industry as it related to all areas concerned. Since I came to this committee from the vicinity of the great lakes my knowledge of the fisheries in coastal regions was vague indeed but I now know something of their problems. It was also true that the members of the committee from the coastal waters were interested in becoming better informed on matters concerning the great lakes. With this thought in mind, an exploration trip to lake Erie was arranged for the purpose of viewing and studying the operations of the largest fresh water fish processing plant in the world. The location of this plant is Wheatley, and it is owned and operated by Olmstead Brothers. This enterprise has continued to expand in times when many fishermen on the great lakes were finding it impossible to carry on. Of course, there was a very good reason for this. These people faced the same problem as all other fishermen on the lakes; when fish they have been accustomed to taking in quantities became progressively more scarce each year, their income shrank to a point of non-existence.
The speculation is that this circumstance was contributed to by the lamprey eel and the smelt, both of which were multiplying at a rapid pace and are rated as predators. The lamprey is known to attack and kill lake trout and possibly other species as well. The smelt may be the bigger killer of the two, as it is now the belief that they prey on the very young fish and perhaps on the eggs of several species such as lake trout, whitefish, pickerel and herring. Recently, while conversing on this problem with some of the fishermen, another point was mentioned that may have some bearing on the matter. It was stated that when lake trout left the shoals after spawning, immediately suckers would move in and it seemed this was for the sole purpose of feeding on the spawn. In fact, the stomachs of the suckers were found to contain trout spawn. Would it not be good business to create some incentive to make it worth while for the fishermen to fish as many as possible of these rough fish from the lakes?
No measures have ever been taken to exercise any control on smelts. However, in 1956, an international great lakes fishery

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commission was established to direct sea lamprey control and to conduct fishery research which in the opinion of the fishermen should have been under way at least five years previously. Canada's contribution to this international commission for the last two years has been as follows: in 1957-58, $420,000; in 1958-59, $408,104; and for 1959-60, it will be approximately $620,000. This represents about 31 per cent of the commission's spending; the remainder is paid by the United States government. This international commission hopes to achieve maximum sustained productivity in the great lakes.
The most of this money has been spent on lamprey destruction programs and it appears that some progress is being made. But, I am concerned about the continued infestation from the ocean. No action has been taken by the commission to remedy this situation. I would suggest the conservation commission consider the possibility of establishing an electric fish barrier somewhere below lake Ontario to stop further migration of lamprey to the great lakes system. Then, it seems to me, the destruction of the lamprey in the lakes would really mean something.
There is one other possible contribution to the disappearance of our trout and white-fish and that has been excessive fishing and the taking of fish on their spawning grounds. Perhaps the nylon net could also be at fault as it captures smaller fish than the conventional cord net.
After making these observations, Mr. Chairman, I will come back to the problem in respect of the area which the committee had under study. Lake Erie has been a highly productive body of water and the fishermen have enjoyed fairly prosperous times. However, a change has been taking place in the fish population. The lake Erie fishermen were equipped to take whitefish and pickerel as these two types had been available in commercial quantities over the years. However, of late the whitefish have become almost as scarce in lake Erie as lake trout are in the Georgian bay and lake Huron. Pickerel are not available in quantity. Smelts and perch have taken over and are available in large quantities.
Olmstead Brothers did not waste any time lamenting about the situation. Rather, they proceeded to establish a market for smelts and perch. As soon as they were assured these types could be handled profitably, they secured the proper gear to fish these small types. This was the initial step, but the processing of such small fish, especially smelts, would have to be done by machinery.
Olmstead's designed a machine and manufactured it in their own machine shop which

cleans a smelt inside and out and cuts the head off in one operation. At the time of our visit many of these machines were in use. Their catches of smelts have been as high as 50 tons a day and so it is evident their plant must be highly mechanized to handle such a production. Furthermore, cold storage had to be provided for hundreds of tons of finished product.
At the time of our visit 600 people were on the payroll. However, when the heavy run on smelt was over the staff would be greatly reduced. The operations would then be confined to yellow perch-


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Order. I must interrupt the hon. member and advise him that it is six o'clock. The committee will reconvene at seven o'clock.


Percy Verner Noble: I can finish in a very short time.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Is it the pleasure of the committee that we permit the hon. member to finish his remarks?


John Whitney Pickersgill: It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that we are sitting pretty long hours, and if it was just a matter of a question and answer in a minute or two to get through the department I think we would agree but if we are going to have long speeches similar to those on the address I think we should recess.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 7 p.m.
Percy Verner Noble: Mr. Chairman, at six o'clock I was at this point in my speech. At the time of our visit 600 people were on the payroll; however, when the heavy run on smelts was over, the staff would be greatly reduced. The operations would then be confined to yellow perch and what pickerel would be available along with all rough fish that would be suitable for mink food.
The greater part of the production of this plant is marketed in the United States and delivery is made by their own transports. They related to us that they were unable to supply the demand for their smelts and were hoping to devise means of taking them throughout the fishing season. At present their equipment is designed to take them in their opening run when they congregate in schools.
This expedition was a revelation to the whole committee. Expressions of satisfaction and appreciation were much in evidence. The

members from the coastal regions gained a knowledge of our inland waters that will be advantageous at future deliberations on our great lakes fisheries problems. Furthermore, they will carry back to the coastal fisheries some new ideas in respect to modern processing equipment developed at the Olmstead plant. The opportunity to make such observations and to exchange views on biology and conservation with experts, who were included in our party, was invaluable to all concerned. A good representation of the fisheries of lake Erie met with the committee and their spokesman graciously expressed the gratitude of his colleagues for our efforts and interest in their welfare.
The absence on this trip of all of our committee members from the opposition parties appeared to be intentional. Especially was this indicated when the hon. member from Ottawa West, in hope of gaining some political advantage, on the following day questioned the Minister of Fisheries as to what department supplied the transportation and who paid for the trip. The members of the committee who failed to avail themselves of the opportunity to see some of the most modern fish processing equipment in the world, did the fishermen they represent a real injustice. They could have been in a position to pass on to them valuable knowledge.
My immediate concern in speaking to these estimates is, of course, the Georgian bay and lake Huron. This has been a great fish producing body of water, where many of my constituents operated commercially and prospered; however, for reasons stated earlier in these observations, commercial and game fish cease to exist in quantities that make it worth while for fishermen to continue in the industry, and the lake trout, as a tourist attraction, has been nullified. My foremost purpose on the marine and fisheries committee is to use my influence in promoting the early restoration of lake trout and whitefish or other suitable fish to the Georgian bay and lake Huron. In their productive years, the three largest great lakes, Superior, Michigan and Huron, produced 15 million pounds of lake trout annually. Now this is dwindling toward zero.
It has been ascertained that lamprey seldom kill fish under 20 inches in length; therefore, I suggest that more emphasis be placed on the production of splake, a cross between lake and speckled trout, which reaches maturity and would start a reproductive cycle before attaining the size which is suitable for attack by lamprey. Many of the now idle fish hatcheries could help in speeding up this restocking program in respect to splake and perhaps on other suitable species.
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On the week end, I made a survey of fish hatcheries in my district and two out of three have been idle for four years. The third one, the Wiarton hatchery, is operating at only 30 per cent of its capacity, producing lake trout for stocking lake Simcoe. This situation would perhaps apply to other hatcheries as well. I am aware that these hatcheries are provincial property, but I feel sure the federal Department of Fisheries or the conservation commission would be permitted to make use of all available facilities. We in the great lakes area would most certainly like to see a restoration of lake trout and whitefish; nevertheless, a lot of time should not be lost while we entertain a wait and see attitude; therefore, I submit the following information for further consideration. It has been demonstrated on several occasions that fish could be transferred to new surroundings successfully.
In checking over reports of the researchers, I note that in 1929 Dymond, Hart and Pritchard report the establishment of sea-run populations of spring salmon in the St. John river in New Brunswick and Port Credit river in Ontario. These salmon have been taken in the St. John river by the hundreds and vary in weight up to eight pounds. Fish up to 30 pounds have been taken from the Port Credit river. The streams and coastal regions of Maine, New Brunswick and Ontario are the only foreign waters on the North American continent in which natural populations of Pacific salmon have been established; however, it appears now that these salmon have disappeared from lake Ontario.
I think the researchers would agree that lake Ontario was not an ideal body of water for this experiment. The lake lacked a good depth of water and many of the streams flowing into it could not be considered much more than open sewers. In recent years this condition has been cleared up to a large extent with the development of sewage and waste disposal plants. Georgian bay and lake Huron, with their cold deep water, continually replenished from scores of clean streams, offer ideal conditions for the introduction of Pacific salmon. At this point I will make some further observations in respect to the introduction of Pacific salmon south of the equator.
The Tasmania fisheries commission in 1933 stated that, in the confined water of their great lake, spring salmon thrive and grow rapidly to support a flourishing sport fishery. Sockeye salmon introduced to lake Ohau in New Zealand have acquired a landlocked habit. These fish run up creeks at the head of the lake and spawn there every year in March and April.

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The sea-run population of Pacific salmon that have been successfully established in both Chile and New Zealand have adjusted their life cycle to the change in occurrence of the seasons in the southern hemisphere. The spawning migrations of these salmon occur in January, February and March, which are seasonal equivalents of July, August and September in the northern hemisphere.
Much progress and many improvements have been made in fish cultural methods in recent years which should help in securing desired results in transplanting of sockeye or spring salmon to the great lakes. I make these observations to support my conviction that salmon can be successfully reared and propagated in the upper lakes.
I suggest to the minister that an experiment to introduce some of the coastal waters salmon to the upper great lakes be conducted at the earliest convenience and that some of the money paid to the international conservation commission be designated for this purpose. The sockeye salmon from the west coast and spring salmon from the east coast have been able to reproduce and live with the sea lamprey and smelts. Would it not be reasonable to assume they could continue to live in this environment in the great lakes? Should this prove to be true, and the lamprey and smelts prove to be uncontrollable, this could be the solution to our problem. The introduction of fish to new environment may be very important to ensuring suitable production for sport and commercial fishing in our great lakes in the years ahead.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I emphasize that fishery conditions in lake Huron and Georgian bay have created a serious situation for all the fishermen depending on these waters for a livelihood. Their life earnings are tied up in fishing boats, docks and other gear, none of which is saleable. The tourist industry has suffered to lesser extent, yet worthy of note. Many tourist operators who had depended on the lake trout for an attraction just do not have anything to offer. For instance, Cape Croker on the Bruce peninsula was a location for ideal lake trout trolling. It brought thousands of dollars to the Indians on the Cape Croker reserve who rented their boats and acted as guides. It also meant much to camp operators who supplied the other accommodation necessary.
In the town of Meaford lake trout trolling was considered one of their best industries. At one time they had a fleet of forty or more pleasure craft built and designed for the purpose of trolling for lake trout. Today not a single boat leaves the harbour for the

purpose of trolling for trout. The chamber of commerce of this town estimate that this tourist business was worth one quarter of a million dollars to them. I have cited the experience of these localities with which I am familiar, but it applies to the whole lake Huron and Georgian bay area.
I am aware of the fact that some of the problems I mention are partly provincial responsibilities; however, I am anxious to see federal funds and influence work in full co-ordination with provincial effort to bring about the desired results and with some expediency.


Mr. Stewart:: I have no intention of holding up the estimates of the department nor do I intend to burden the committee with a history of the fishing industry and the woes and tribulations of the fishermen of my constituency. Those problems can be solved in co-operation with the minister and the officials of his department. But I think I would be most ungrateful if I did not bring to the attention of the committee the importance of this item as far as my constituency is concerned. We have in my constituency the largest sardine cannery in the British empire and the largest lobster pound in the world. These are the two important items of our fisheries. You can therefore see that investigation and research through the biological gation and research through the biological portant to the fishermen of my riding and also to the general economy of the constituency.
In June, 1959 the Minister of Fisheries opened a new wing to the biological station and commemorated 50 years of the service in biological research to the constituency. There is employed by the Department of Fisheries, according to the last report, that for 1957-58, a total of 25 boats in the province of New Brunswick with a crew of 106. There was spent on the biological boats alone $105,000 and there was spent on the boats engaged in protection in New Brunswick $150,000. In connection with work at the biological station there was spent during 1957-58, $475,000 and in the province of New Brunswick roughly $1,750,000. You can therefore see that this item is extremely important. I think that I would be very remiss if I did not express the appreciation of the fishermen of my constituency to the Minister of Fisheries and to his staff for their work in this regard.


Mr. Nixon:: Back in May I asked the minister if he would make a statement on the department's program dealing with the lamprey situation in the great lakes, especially in lake Superior. At that time he said that he would make a statement on the matter

when his estimates were before the house. I wonder whether he would do it now.


John Angus MacLean: Yes. As all hon. members know, this is a very vast problem. Due to the invasion of lamprey in the great lakes or the infestation of the great lakes by the lamprey as a result of the manmade canals to the great lakes, the whole ichthyology of the lakes has been upset. The lamprey, which are a parasite, thrived in these waters where they never had existed in previously and where there are no natural predators on them.
This is a problem which we have been working at for a number of years now in co-operation with the United States and our agency that does the work under the international great lakes fishery commission, is the fisheries research board of Canada.
First this problem was attacked by trying to control the migration of the lamprey to streams up which they go to spawn by means of electrical barriers. Another approach that was tried concurrently was to find a specific poison for lampreys; and a break-through in this matter has been made in recent months. Two chemicals have been discovered which proved lethal or proved to be a selective poison for lampreys. In other words, in certain concentration it will destroy the lamprey and their larvae, which is important, but will not affect other forms of fish life. This year we are doing a trial project on a reasonably large scale poisoning certain of the streams. It is too early yet to judge what the result will be but it seems encouraging. I do not think there is any more I can say at the moment at this late point. But if there is any other information the hon. member for Algoma West or any other hon. member would like to have, I should be delighted to supply all details.
Item agree to.
515. Industrial development service - further amount required, $800,000.


Frank Howard: This vote shows a fairly substantial amount of money. I wonder whether we could have from the minister an indication of what is entailed in this particular vote.


John Angus MacLean: This is really a transfer from the Department of Public Works to the Department of Fisheries for the community stage program in Newfoundland which was introduced last fall partly as a winter work program.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
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519. Newfoundland bait service-further amount required, $101,000.
Mr. Granger:: The matter of bait supply seems to be an annual problem. I certainly should like to mention my appreciation of the interest that the minister's department is taking in this problem in Newfoundland. What I want to mention now is the possibility of using artificial bait as a supplement to frozen bait. I mention this matter because the type of artificial lure which is used in sports fishing has been used with considerable success in catching cod. As a matter of fact, one man that I know who used the type of lure which is used, as I say, in sports fishing, in fishing side by side with fishermen using the ordinary type of jigger, was much more successful in landing his fish. I would suggest that perhaps the minister's department might look into the possibility of developing types of lures for cod fish similar to what the sports industry has for sports fishermen.


John Angus MacLean: I am highly appreciative of the hon. member's suggestion. I can say that the fisheries research board has been doing some work on artificial baits of various kinds. In addition to that our industrial development branch has been doing trials on various types of lures. We are hoping that some solution to this problem may be found, because it would be a great relief not only to the department but also to a large number of fishermen who have difficulty in making sure there is a constant supply of bait. I must say, with reference to bait, that squid are in very short supply. They have not appeared as yet. But as an insurance measure we have fairly large holdings of other types of bait, so that we will not be destitute, as it were, if the squid fail to appear. We have some 1,750,000 pounds of bait in storage at the moment.
521. Destruction of dogfish and other predators, $250,000.


Frank Howard: This item relates to the
destruction of dogfish and other predators. A similar amount was voted for this purpose in the supplementary estimates last session for the last fiscal year but I understand the program did not work out too well mostly because it was started too late in the season. I would certainly appreciate it if the minister could indicate whether this dogfish destruction program will start immediately and also on what basis they are going to use the fund. Perhaps the minister would indicate whether he hopes to use the entire vote this year instead of the small amount of this vote which was actually used last year.

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John Angus MacLean: Last year when this amount was voted it took a considerable length of time before we were able to reach agreement with everyone concerned as to a satisfactory program, and it was late in the season before the program got under way. It began at a time of the year which was perhaps not the best time for the catching of dogfish. But we will be in the position to announce the program immediately this vote is passed and this year we are paying a bounty, one might call it, of ten cents a pound on dogfish liver and we hope this will prove successful.


Frank Howard: Is this money to be used solely for dogfish destruction or are there plans to deal with sea lions and so on?


John Angus MacLean: There was a possibility when this vote was drawn that a small amount might be used for sea lion control but we have found a method of doing that under another vote, and this entire amount will be used against dogfish.


Mr. Batten:: I may not be quite in order in asking this question on this item but I should like to know from the minister if land for the site of the bait unit at Bonne Bay and Woody Point has been secured?


John Angus MacLean: As the hon. member knows, we had some difficulty in finding a suitable location for the bait unit at Bonne Bay but I believe I am correct in saying that recently we obtained a suitable site at Woody Point, and the unit was transferred there, or it is in the process of being transferred.


Herman Maxwell Batten: May I ask the minister whether sites have been chosen on the west coast of Newfoundland for any of the seven units which are being provided for in the present year?


John Angus MacLean: There has been no final decision with regard to the eight units which are being provided for in this year's estimates. As the hon. member knows, there have been a large number of demands from a great number of areas, and we have to study the relative needs of all those areas, the possibility of other sources of supply and so forth. No final decisions have as yet been made as to the areas in which they will be set up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: That completes the estimates of the Department of Fisheries.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, if I may say so, I want first to correct one impression I may have left inadvertently with the committee. I may have sounded as if I believed that everything was rosy in the garden and that there were no problems as far as fishermen were concerned. That is not the case. There are areas, especially in connection with certain types of fish production, where the economics of the industry are not very good because the production is going to a low price market. I do not want to labour the point, but I have in mind such things as salt cod in Newfoundland and smoked herring-bloaters-in places such as the Magdalen islands. I want to assure the committee that these problems are under constant review, and we hope to find some way of improving the situation.
That is all I want to say at the moment, except to express my appreciation for the high degree of co-operation that the committee has shown to me and to my officials.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
294. Departmental administration, including Canada's share of the upkeep of the international bureaux at Berne and Montevideo, $1,915,483.
Mr. Denis:: I suppose that the Postmaster General has something very interesting to tell us. I will ask him now, very respectfully, to say something about this first item.


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: I thank the hon. member for St. Denis for inferring that this was going to be very interesting. I was hopeful, for a moment, that he might even accept the estimates of this department without hearing any comment whatsoever from the minister. But I am delighted to review briefly our operations over the past year and tell the committee something of what we are doing.
At the outset, I should like to pay my tribute to the people who operate the postal service, the department's 50,000 employees. Their quiet spirit of dedication, their sincerity and devotion to the job they do and their untiring labours are the foundation of Canada's postal service, and it is a strong, sure foundation of which Canadians may well be proud.
Because of this government's belief that the public is best served when its employees feel that there is an interest in their morale, their welfare and their working conditions, I am particularly encouraged by the general improvement in the morale of our service and

in the bettered relationships between our employee organizations and the administration which has occurred during the past two years.
Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the April editorial in the Postal Tribune, the official organ of the Canadian Postal Employees' Association, which dealing generally with changes and improvements we have introduced says in part:
While the change has been gradual, there is ample evidence that all changes have been to the benefit of the service (to the public) and the employees.
. . . Another change quite evident to officers and members of our organization is the present attitude of senior officials both at headquarters and in the field. In the past organizations were tolerated and in many cases co-operation was a one way street. The new era has made it more evident that problems presented by postal organization organizations should and will receive serious consideration in view of how such problems affect morale and staff efficiency.
With such a spirit it is easy to understand why the past fiscal year, and the months since then to the present, have been a period of further progress and achievement for the Post Office Department; a period during which we have made desirable improvements in service to the public which I shall detail in a few moments; during which we have introduced changes of benefit to our employees; and during which we have made plans and taken the initial steps which will be increasingly reflected in the months to come in further advances.
In this respect no single change is of greater importance than that introduced a few months ago with the establishment of our new engineering and development branch on a level equal in all respects with those other five branches into which postal service has traditionally been divided.
Before this new division of reponsibility, engineering and development was but one part of the work of the operations branch of the department. Faced with the multitudinous problems of directing the day to day operation of the postal service, and the pressing and immediate difficulties which continually arise when 10 million pieces of mail must be handled daily, that work which is the foundation of present and future postal improvements in Canada had often to be delayed and neglected in favour of the more immediate problems.
Now, headed by one of our most experienced postal officials and a man who has a particular capacity for this work, engineering and development has attained its proper status in our organization and this has already been reflected in the acceleration of many of our projects. The new branch has as its primary functions research in mechanization and postal techniques, examination of new ideas in postal
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operations developed in other areas; testing of new machines and techniques; a continual review of all standard postal equipment in order to improve its design; provision of mail handling equipment to post offices, and arrangements for buildings, space and facilities for carrying out all postal operations.
In the field of modernization, probably the most important single project is the development of an electro-mechanical mail sorting machine. This project, as many of you know, has been under research and development for some years and has now reached the stage where a contract has been awarded to Cana-dair Limited in Montreal for the construction of the first complete machine to be tested under operating conditions in a post office.
We also expect during the first half of 1960 to install and begin testing a machine which has been developed by the British post office for automatically culling and facing up letters, cancelling their stamps and separating them into local and out of town groups.
These two machines together provide for the mechanization of letter handling in a post office from the time the mail bag is opened until the letter is ready for forwarding to another city or a letter carrier for delivery. I have no doubt that a decade hence we shall look back on them as primitive-just as we now consider the model T Ford to have been a primitive form of automobile transportation-but the fact remains that we are breaking through that barrier which has made the postal service, not only of Canada but generally throughout the world, one of the least mechanized of all mass handling operations.
I should remind hon. members again, as I have in the past, that while such developments are likely to enable us to reduce our part-time staff-people who work three or four hours a day at peak periods in the post office-they are not likely to represent reductions in our present full time staff. Primarily we are seeking not a decrease in manpower but an improvement in our efficiency to allow us to deal without delay with our ever-increasing mail volume.
In addition to these devices we have forged ahead with other new technological innovations, many of which are now operating in our newer and larger post offices. We have developed numerous intricate and effective conveyor systems which speed up the handling of mail at our bigger offices and which reduce the number of man hours required to handle a piece of mail.
We have also developed in several cities experimental models of curbside mailing boxes for the use of the motoring public.

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These are redesigned parcel receptacles fitted with a funnel-shaped snorkel facing the street side. They may be used by a motorist without leaving his car. Generally speaking, these boxes have proved popular. The need for them was dictated by increasing city traffic and by a shortage of parking space in downtown areas.
I suppose it is a commentary on our way of life to report that having designed and installed boxes of this kind we are now being pressed to put them only on one-way streets so that a man may drive up and deposit mail in the box from the driver's side of the vehicle. If we put them on twoway streets there is the possibility that the driver may have to slide across the seat of the automobile in order to deposit the mail and in some cases people find that even that is too much.
I want to pay this tribute. We have had fine co-operation from civic authorities where we have set them up and 26 of the newly designed receptacles have been placed in service in various cities across the country. This type of installation will be expanded as suitable sites are determined.
In recent years the department has purchased and installed 1,500 new type stamp vending machines and purchase is planned of a further 500 during the next year. The machines are being installed at railway terminals, bus depots, hotel lobbies and outside post office buildings. They serve a dual purpose in that they tend to take some of the pressure off the regular wicket sale of stamps at peak hours and, more important, they are available to the mailing public 24 hours a day. These machines, you will note, give full face value in stamps for the money deposited.
We have undertaken a study of mail boxes and receptacles in use throughout the country with a view to reducing the variety of types in service. We expect to be able to effect substantial savings in the procurement and distribution of these boxes by standardizing sizes and types to a greater degree than in the past.
In our continuing program to streamline administrative operations we have installed an electronic punch card calculator at headquarters. This complex device will save thousands of man hours in processing post office savings bank accounts and in calculating salary payments to revenue postmasters. In addition, we are investigating other uses to which this device can be put which will materially reduce the costs in time and money of routine clerical operations.
We are also making extensive studies in the handhng of money orders with a view to

developing a system based on electronic accounting machines similar to those being developed for use by financial institutions which should considerably streamline our operations in this field.
Some evidence of the interest being taken in Canadian postal achievements is found in the continuing series of visits we have by experts from other countries who come to study our service. During the past year I was pleased, as were senior officials, at the opportunity of welcoming officials from Australia, Ethiopia, the Netherlands, India, the United States and Great Britain.
I might mention that we are co-operating with the government of the West Indies federation by providing the services of a Canadian postal official to act as postal services adviser in the survey being made of the postal service systems functioning under the West Indies federation.
Because members have had before them for some months the report of my department for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1958 I will not repeat the information which it contains but I will now attempt to review for you a number of happenings and developments of the past year.
In general, the service has continued to grow at a steady pace. During the year 37 new revenue post offices were opened in rural areas and two staff post offices, two postal stations and 75 sub-post offices were opened in our larger cities. During the period from April 1, 1958 to March 31, 1959, 65 federal buildings were occupied by post offices, including our two major buildings in Winnipeg and Vancouver which contain some of the most modern postal equipment anywhere in the world.
The annual report of the Postmaster General for 1957-58 showed that our mail revenues for that year had reached a new high of $177,492,000, and that expenditures had also reached a record level of $177,893,000. During the fiscal year just completed, the one which succeeded that whose figures I have just quoted, even those record levels were surpassed as departmental revenues, revenue climbing to $183,381,000, and operating costs rose to $183,554,000. Taking the total disbursements from the total revenues you will find an excess of cost over revenues of $173,142. While it is a deficit that figure is not as large as we had presumed might be the case, and I think it reflects prudent management and careful and effective administration of the department. I might say, too, that we have succeeded in achieving this despite very substantial increases in some of the costs of our operations, and despite important improvements in our service to the public.

I should now like to speak about some of those improvements to the public. Last year, in presenting the post office estimates, I indicated that we had been concentrating on providing letter carrier service to small and medium towns which had not previously had it. We are now well on with this type of program and are increasingly turning our attention to the problem of more effective mail delivery to the sprawling suburban developments that are springing up around those large cities. Many of those new communities are separated from the nearest letter carrier areas by large tracts of undeveloped land, and hitherto they did not qualify for letter carrier service. We have decided to relax our requirements with the result that door to door service will be provided immediately to many more thousands of suburban households.
A completely new approach to the problem of providing service in scattered suburban areas is being tried through the use of a three-wheeled vehicle we call the mailmobile; my hon. friend from St. Denis calls it the scooter. Those of you who were present on parliament hill a few weeks ago when I demonstrated this versatile little machine will understand something of the high hopes we have for its use in outlying urban areas. It will enable the letter carrier to deliver not only letters but bulky mail such as parcels and newspaper bundles which now require special handling by truck. It will eliminate the need for frequent visits to relay boxes for bundles of mail deposited by truck for later pick-up and delivery by the carrier. I may say that the experiment with this new vehicle is being carried out in a suburb of Vancouver, and if successful the service will be extended to other parts of the country wherever terrain and climate permit.
In all, our carrier service during the year ended March 31, 1959 expanded with the addition of some 292 walks. Through the establishing of these walks and the revision of existing walks a total of 126,377 points of call were provided with letter carrier service. This compares with 108,036 points of call to which I referred last year when I presented my estimates. We have also taken steps to improve the service given to patrons in the fringe areas of cities and along rural routes. Requirements for group box service in suburban areas were eased, and the number of patrons required-and this will be of particular interest to our rural members -to establish a new rural route was decreased from four to three per mile. This year 865 existing routes were extended and a total of some 16,400 new patrons were brought into service along our rural routes.
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It is surprising the little things that the Post Office Department does that sometimes antagonizes the public. One of the sources of irritation to quite a few people who have spoken to me has been the lack of an official receipt requested by many patrons when they bought postage stamps in quantity at the wicket. That problem has been remedied by the development of a new receipt form we are providing to our post offices across the country so that they can provide a receipt on request to any purchaser of stamps.
Last year, to speed up service to the public, we experimented with the sale of specially packaged two and five cent stamps during the Christmas rush. That project was widely successful and we are going to improve and extend the program based on the findings of the experiment in 1958.
I have not been entirely satisfied, Mr. Chairman, with the service given our patrons under the special delivery service and we have introduced a number of modifications designed to speed up the delivery service, particularly in the larger cities. These changes, which make use of special couriers and wider use of special couriers, and less of letter carriers for special delivery mail, have speeded up this service considerably and have won general approval from postal patrons, particularly business firms.
We have been working too, to strengthen and improve our public relations division, and we hope to extend our program in this field to include a wider coverage of the smaller centres, in line with the suggestions so ably outlined last year at estimates time by the hon. member for Kootenay West. We do this because one very important aspect of our service is obtaining public co-operation, and we desire that the public shall know about what we are doing and our problems and how they themselves can work with us to obtain better mail service. We desire that as much as possible of this be done.
During the year we undertook a review of our program of annual examinations carried out for each employee of our department. I do not know how many people in this house know that postal employees, unlike most workers in many fields, are required to undergo an annual examination in the work they are doing. While the results of those examinations are not yet complete, we expect that they will determine future action with regard to our examination program which, however, in essence we feel is sound and worth while.
We have kept a close check-and the committee will be interested in this as a measure of our effectiveness-on the number of inquiries about service difficulties and investigations of irregularities, two indicators of

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potential problems within the service. I am pleased to note that inquiries have dropped from 414,332 in 1957-58 to 404,265 in 1958-59. This is a reduction of more than 10,000 over the year, and it is even more remarkable when you consider that in that same year there was a tremendous increase in the volume of mail actually handled.
In the field of security and losses, Mr. Chairman, due to continuing improvement in our methods of inspection, losses to the post office through account shortages have shown a steady decline. In the year 1957-58 there were 461 cases of shortages involving $39,184. In 1958-59 this number had dropped to 395 cases involving $22,385. These figures represent a trend which over the last two years has seen the number of cases drop by 24 per cent and the net amounts involved by 57 per cent.
We are also moving forward in our attempts to defeat break-ins and thefts from post offices. Because of improved security there was no loss in one-third of the post office break-ins last year and the average cash loss, where such occurred, has been reduced from $96 two years ago to $85 last year.
In coming to my conclusion, Mr. Chairman, may I say that in preparing for these estimates I reviewed my address to the house last year on the same subject. It contains much of the basic philosophy which has guided my decisions and also much additional information on this department which I will not repeat here. I mention this merely so that hon. members who may have some particular point of interest, no matter how minor it may be, which has not been covered will not feel that it has been overlooked but merely that I have tried to give them as much information as possible in a comparatively limited time. Certainly I will be delighted to explore anything anyone wants to bring up.
I should like to express a special word of appreciation to my hon. friend, the member for St. Denis, who has taken a particularly active interest in my department. While I am not sure I approve or can approve of the stockpiling of gasoline even at premium prices in Toronto for scooters that are out in Vancouver or mail delivery by Bomarc missile-


Mr. Benidickson:: But you have advocated twice a day mail delivery.


William McLean Hamilton: I am
being rather pleasant at the moment and I am sorry that the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River has to introduce a sour note. The interest of the hon. member for St. Denis in the department, his constant concern over
(Mr. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace).]
post office matters and, I think above all, his humour and his unfailing good nature have really endeared him to me, and I want to say again how much I appreciate it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You may be disarming him.


William McLean Hamilton: derive a certain satisfaction in finding pleasant people in the opposition and marking them out.


Mr. Hellyer:: That is a very pleasant change from the situation which existed before.


William McLean Hamilton: Perhaps there is a more pleasant Postmaster General on this side of the house.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I am thinking of the reverse.


William McLean Hamilton: At
the outset of my remarks I paid a tribute to our postal employees generally and I want to emphasize again the excellent job they are doing. Because so many of us think in terms of postal employees as the ones we see, letter carriers, rural mail couriers, postmasters and those who work under them in post offices, we tend to forget that credit is due also to the administrative staff of the post office because in our department, as in all government work, administrative ability of a very high order is required.
The deputy postmaster general, our six branch heads, our regional and district directors and our area superintendents together with their staffs are all involved in this work. The great majority of them have long years of service for this is a department which must largely produce its top officials from within its own ranks, a policy with which I am firmly in accord wherever it is possible to implement it. The changes and developments we are instituting would be impossible without their co-operation and, in most cases, without their production of the actual ideas. I should like to congratulate them on the outstanding job they are doing along with our other employees.
I can speak of the post office and its operations with some feeling, for in the past two years I have become involved in its activities at all levels, from such things as the weaknesses in a stamp vending machine outside the Saint John, New Brunswick, post office, the need for name plates on the wickets at Edmonton, the leaky roof on the post office at Stephenville, Newfoundland, and the slow delivery of letter carrier shirts in Kelowna, B.C.-


Paul Joseph James Martin: And the telephone at Tecumseh.


William McLean Hamilton: -the
matter of a telephone in the Tecumseh post office, as the hon. member for Essex East points out; to such things as the location of major new post offices, the mechanization of mail handling processes and the introduction of the most modern electronic forms of equipment. Being always concerned beyond all else with the primary function of the department, which is to provide the best possible mail service to the Canadian public, I say without hesitation that my remarks tonight might well be summarized in the statement that the Canada post office is continually improving its service to the Canadian public and will continue that improvement in line with its very famous motto, servire populo, to serve the people.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: On hearing the words of praise directed to me by the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton) I felt that he was practically asking me to refrain from criticizing his department. Well, I don't deserve that beautiful apple green paper which has just been awarded to me. It just happens that I am in good health. And, if my questions were to the point, it was because there was ample scope for criticism.
The minister having praised me, I must necessarily return the compliment. I must say that he is a hard worker, that he is affable, likeable; he is also crafty, and intelligent.


Mr. Ricard:: And, above all, a Conservative.


Azellus Denis: But what I consider unfortunate is that he makes such bad use of all those fine qualities. He pays compliments. He offers the people of Canada, and hon. members in this house, all sorts of projects-but we never know whether those projects, compliments and gifts will materialize. In my college days I was taught a latin saying:
Timeo Danaos et dona Jerentes (I distrust the Greeks, even when they bring gifts.)
People with less education, perhaps, like the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe (Mr. Ricard), would have said: "I distrust the Danes with their iron teeth".


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: You can't be beat for pettiness; you're certainly an expert at it.


Azellus Denis: When the frogs have finished croaking, we shall carry on.
Because the hon. Postmaster General as I said, is very crafty and clever, for we "knew him when", we have known him as a minister, and have also known him when he was in the opposition. Therefore the bouquets he's throwing at me now make me rather wary of what might happen if I trust his sincerity or his sweet words, be-
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cause many a minister and many a Canadian citizen have had a taste of them in the past.
When he was in the opposition, he also said complimentary things, and said what he would do if he were in office. One of my friends here reminds me of La Fontaine's fable, the one I think, about the Crow and the Fox:
SI votre ramage se rapporte a votre plumage,
Vous etes le phenix des hdtes de ces bois.
What happened was that the Postmaster General paid the compliments, but gobbled the cheese- The crow swore, but just a little too late, that he would never be taken in again. Let me say, to be kind to the hon. Postmaster General, that as far as the party in power is concerned, he is a genius. He is the prototype and the symbol of all the present cabinet. Certain ministers have certain shortcomings, others have other shortcomings, and they share the shortcomings between them; but the hon. Postmaster General has all the faults and shortcomings of all the present ministers. We must also admit that he has rare qualities: he is affable, friendly, etc., etc.; but he is a genius in the matter of promises, he is a genius in the matter of contradiction; he is a genius in the matter of confusion. He is also a genius in the matter of visions.
(Text):


William Moore Benidickson: Two deliveries a day. (Translation):


Azellus Denis: He is a genius in nonsense.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: You, you are a genius in
stupidity.


Azellus Denis: He is a genius in the matter of suggestions, suggestions of the kind that we must not forget.
He has told us about his department, the things that suited him, but left unsaid the things that were more or less to his credit. He has made a fine speech, graced with flowers of rhetoric, but he omitted all mention of the weeds concealed beneath the flowers of rhetoric that he graciously bestowed upon us.
Mr. Chairman, in order to see whether the present incumbent is a good Postmaster General, we must know of the changes that have taken place since he took over his department. We have to know if we shall close the fiscal year with a deficit or a surplus. We have to find out whether promised improvements have been carried out.
I would ask the minister not to slouch out of sight in his chair because we are going to talk a bit about his past, and his present too. As for his future, I think the people of Canada will see about it, and I am sorry for the minister, because he is a good natured,

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most affable and likeable man. It would be too bad not to see him around any more in the house and to miss his smile and his shrewdness which we highly appreciate. Unfortunately, as I just said his shrewdness is being used in a bad cause, whereas it should be serving a good one.
Mr. Chairman, I now want to say a word about the Postmaster General's estimates. The minister said nothing about them-he who, in the past, upbraided the former postmasters general for dealing with insignifiant matters, for making hollow speeches, for not comparing the Canadian Post Office Department with those of other countries, so as to show whether our own postal service was well managed. Of all this the present incumbent has spoken not a word. He merely referred to improvements that were made, or to events which took place, under departmental regulations.
Mr. Chairman, the Postmaster General can in no wise claim credit for the improvements he mentioned, because even if he had not been there, yea, even if he had vetoed them, they would have been proceeded with. Besides, the growth of those services is merely a result of a growth in the population. Those improvements existed at the time of his predecessor, and will continue to exist. However, he used to claim that such improvements could not be credited to the then minister and that if he ever got into the saddle, he would bring in drastic changes.


An hon. Member:: The improvements were made in spite of him.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, when the hon. minister was sitting on this side of the house, he used to berate us for waste and extravagance. He used to say that the Liberal party had no regard for economy, that the postal service was slow and that the experiments the government was conducting at the time were childishness and nonsense. Now, his outlook is altogether different. The things he used to call bad have now become his personal handiwork, he who was so anxious to put a stop to waste and to balance the budget.
Let us see how well he has done. Just as last year, each item of his credits shows an increase. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, in the matter of extravagance, which he used to ascribe to the former government, the hon. minister now has to eat his words.
At that time, the minister used to say he was against surpluses. He would claim that the government of the time was not running things in a business-like way. In his book, business-like administration means showing deficits. In his view, bankrupt government is prosperous government. He even referred to Conservative prosperity, to past deficits
[Mr. Denis.l
and surpluses in the Post Office Department. To him, the most interesting part of the estimates is the part which concerns deficits.
How many times did he not say here that he wanted to "break even"? He was not looking for profits, but he didn't say he didn't want any deficits. The way I see it he "broke even" a little late, because since he has been running the department, there has been deficit upon deficit.
Since the minister used to advocate economy and to war against waste, there must have been waste at that time. However, his departmental estimates for this year total $163.5 million, as against $162 million last year. Such is the amount of money the minister is asking us to vote, though at the time he used to call us wastrels and spendthrifts; in 1957-58, the budget was $150 million, and in 1956-57, $132 million. Where was the waste, and where the savings, that the minister should have told us about?
Indeed, Mr. Chairman, the minister went even farther than that. In 1954, he listed the years of budget surpluses and those of budget deficits; and most years under the Liberal administration were years of surplus budgets.
He also said:
(Text):
In 1961 a deficit, somebody made a mistake and there was a deficit of $1 million.
(Translation):
So, Mr. Chairman, if the minister claims that under the Liberals a deficit was a mistake, I think he is doing very well in the matter of mistakes, because ever since he has been heading the Post Office Department he has been going from deficit to deficit, and there is no need to look at the comparative statement of receipts and expenditures. Since his appointment to the Post Office Department deficits have been piling up.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer again to the criticisms which the minister used to make when he was sitting on this side of the house, or to the concrete suggestions he offered, or indeed to the proposals he put forward. For instance he would charge former Postmasters General with poor management. He even said:
(Text):
-slow moving as the department may be.
(Translation):
He remembers those words of his.
He even called former postmasters general stupid. He even went so far as to say:
(Text):
We should examine the minister.

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(Translation):
He was less handy with bouquets then than he is now. He used to beef about the service in the department, about officials who are still here today nevertheless. He used to say:
(Text):
Across the board; we did not have any satisfaction from the Post Office Department.
(Translation) :
The hon. minister will no doubt remember saying that the P.O.D. accounting system was not up to business standards.
He also said:
I can't understand why the various departments should not pay postage on their mailings, as does the general public.
He wanted the Post Office Department to take away from other departments franking and free privileges.
What has the minister done about it in the meantime? When the hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Courtemanche) wants to write to someone, does he have to put a stamp- unattractive though it might be-on his letter? Does he have to use postage on letters he sends out here and there in Canada? Do not all federal departments still enjoy franking privileges?
The hon. Postmaster General has not kept the promise he then made to force other departments to pay postage on their mailings. He used to complain of the fact the postmaster general at the time was operating in the black because he didn't have to pay any rent for the accommodation, space and equipment provided by the Minister of Public Works. Is the hon. Postmaster General now paying anything to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Green) for the premises he occupies? Nothing has been done since that time. Yet the hon. Postmaster General used to say it was bad business practice. When his party came to power, he said:
(Text):
It is a doubtful legacy we have inherited from the Liberal government.
(Translation):
He must recall his statement:
(Text):
I criticize in the very strongest terms the Postmaster General for his administration of the department.
That was the minister in 1954. It was again the minister in 1956 who said:
Slow moving as the department is and slow moving as the minister may be-
It was again the same minister who was complaining about the minister of the time.
There has been no change since then. There has been no change at all. He was very concise.
(Translation):
He was very explicit in 1954 when he said this to the minister. And he now maintains he is against surpluses. Does it mean he is in favour of deficits?
For instance, he used to lash into the minister for giving grants to Trans-Canada Air Lines. Has his department stopped paying those subsidies to the company?
Is the Postmaster General still sending mail by air? He maintains that he does. At the time he was so critical of the former government, our mail services were costing no more than $9 million, whereas today, according to the Postmaster General's report, they are costing $13 million.
At the time, he was complaining that we were paying one dollar and twenty cents a ton to send our mail. Have air mail rates changed since then? I would like the Postmaster General to answer those questions.
Moreover, he used to say that the Post Office Department had a monopoly over various air lines, and that everything was being done in secret. Have we heard of any changes in that regard? Absolutely nothing.
Did he say that a change was to take place, that the department would pay less for air transport of ordinary matter or goods marked "business papers"? We would like some details about that.
The house will recall that he was opposed to the increase in letter rates from 4 to 5 cents. That was two years ago. His party has now been running the country for two years, but has the Postmaster General reduced that rate? He even stated that first class mail was being paid for by third class mail, and that the deficit of third class mail was made up by the consolidated revenue fund. Have those changes taken place in the two years while his party has been in power? Those were promises made to the Canadian people and which, in my opinion, have not been kept.
Does he recall having asked the appointment of a minister of provincial affairs? Does he recall making such a statement? His party has been in power for two years, and he has been Postmaster General for two years; is there a minister of provincial affairs now?

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We are still waiting for him, just as our friends are probably still waiting to be appointed parliamentary secretaries.
Well, Mr. Chairman, he made all those statements, and nothing has been done since. What has he done? He has been travelling. He has boasted travelling some 25,000 to
30.000	miles within a year or a year and a half. He has figured out the mileage covered by mail carriers in a year's time. He has figured out the total mileage of all mail carriers in Canada in a one-year period. Thus he has indicated that in a year, mail travels a distance equivalent to 55 trips to the moon, or 240 trips around the world, while postal employees cover 6 million miles.
I wonder, Mr. Chairman, how many officials in the division have been working on all these calculations? But wherefore and to what purpose? What good can it be for Canadians to know whether these mail carriers have been making the equivalent of 55 round trips to the moon? Of course they've done plenty of walking, but even if they had circled the globe, they still would not beat the record held by the ministers of the present cabinet. They still hold the record. Only the sputniks can do better. Mr. Chairman, the minister boasts that he travelled 25,000 to 30,000 miles. To what effect? From the standpoint of improvement for the Post Office Department, the result is nil. Indeed, he said himself when he travelled out to Sydney:
(Text):
1 have come here just to say hello! (Translation):
Well, it is a rather expensive hello. Imagine covering a distance of 25,000 to
30.000	miles to say a pleasant hello to postal workers. And I presume he met officials.
When things are going smoothly, it is easy to travel; but when the going is rough, it is not so easy. But when postal workers held a meeting to complain of inadequate pay and poor working conditions, the hon. minister failed to show up in Sydney, or in Winnipeg, or in Ottawa. The workers met in Ottawa so that the honourable minister would not have too far to go. In addition they gathered by the thousands in Montreal to complain about working conditions, and they invited the hon. Postmaster General. It seems to me that he should have attended those meetings where thousands of people got together-to save him time-in order to voice their complaints and their criticisms concerning the department. No, the hon. minister did not choose to accept their invitation.
Why travel all over the country, spending money, using private cars, that he so disliked at the time he was in the opposition? He recalls having criticized certain ministers who had used those cars; he even accused them of taking the advice of waiters and sleeping car porters. I believe that, before he monopolizes the Canadian National or Canadian Pacific to travel and just say hello, the minister should at least receive the thousands of his employees who had complaints to make. He could not see them, naturally, because of previous appointments, and if I recall correctly-
(Text):


William McLean Hamilton: Before the hon. gentleman continues in that vein would he read, say, 15 or 20 words more of that quotation relating to the address I gave to the postmasters there, the inspection I made of the city post office and my comments on the service generally?


Azellus Denis: With great pleasure. The hon. gentleman said more about electronic sorters, and predicted the introduction of mechanization which would, he said, virtually eliminate the hand sorting of mail.
(Translation):
Whereas last year he said that it would in no way prejudice the staff and that the present employees would keep their jobs; but, he was not speaking of departmental re-organization and of any resulting decrease in staff. I therefore wonder-and this is a change of mind on his part-why he is taking a trip to the Sydney post office, merely-
(Text):
"Bill" Hamilton gave his secret for getting to know the business: "I never drive by a post office".
He never drives by a post office, yet he wants to go to Sydney, Winnipeg, Vancouver. But he will not attend a meeting when there is complaining by employees.
(Translation):
However, during his first weeks as Postmaster General, he swallowed the criticisms he had aimed at the government of the day and stated that his attacks had been prompted by wrong information and that, after all, he held no grudge against employees, but only against the minister.
Mr. Chairman, is it possible for a department to be well run if the minister is mismanaging it? Moreover, he used to tell everybody who would listen that the Post Office Department was "second to none". Consequently, all those improvements he mentioned earlier in the day are not due to him; they are only a continuation of progress,

a continuation of experiments made before his time. He spoke of electronic instruments; he should be honest enough to admit that those tests had begun before he was appointed to his present post. He then complained that the tests were expensive. Today they cost three times as much. At the time, he said the electronic sorter was a monster -and I have his statement here-a monster costing a million dollars and he wanted to know how soon it would be put to use.
Mr. Chairman, today that monster is costing not only a million but three million, and it has not been put to use yet. Now, instead of calling it a monster, he calls it his great project.
I have here before me a report of the public accounts committee where it is said that, to date, the cost of those electronic machines has reached the figure of $2,383,000. And Mr. Watson Sellar adds:
(Text):
In addition, during the fall of 1958, the department made an installation in its financial branch. Included is a UNIVAC 120 electronic calculator and the rental for this installation is ?1,885 a month.
(Translation):
Well, it is time to say that this million dollar monster is now a three million monster and has become the grand project of the hon. Postmaster General. It is a machine rented from the British, an electronic machine of unknown efficiency. Moreover, the P.O.D. does not know what they are going to do with it.
Well that is the symbol of the government, of its so-called vision, to claim all the credit for all that goes well, while anything that goes awry is blamed on the staff. And when things go wrong because of the government's own mistakes, nothing is said about it.
Another matter which greatly concerned the Postmaster General when he was in the opposition, is the P.O. savings banks. The minister, in this connection, had criticized day in and day out, throughout the year. The record is there, page upon page of it in Hansard. I have here some quotations. I have about twenty of them, showing that he was opposed to the P.O. savings banks because they competed with chartered banks.
Now do you know what happens today?


Mr. Parizeau:: Quote them.


Azellus Denis: Do you know-if I did not want to keep my hon. friend from Lake St. John (Mr. Parizeau) too late, I would quote them. I have them right here. Do you know what the hon. Postmaster General did with savings banks? Do you think he abolished them? Not at all. He multiplied them. There are now 26 more of them, than there were 66968-9-396
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last year. He went even further. In fact, do you know what he says in the report of the Postmaster General? Here is what he says, to encourage savings banks, and I quote from page 28:
As from November 1, 1956, the Savings Bank increased the rate of interest paid on deposits, in order to bring it in line with that paid by other public savings institutions; this helped put a stop to the decline in deposits.
Not only did he make that statement in 1958, but also in 1957. In 1957, he says, and I quote:
Effective November 1, 1957, the rate of interest paid on deposits was increased from 2 per cent to 21 per cent a year.
Is that a way of discouraging people from making deposits in savings banks? Was he right in saying that, while he was in the opposition, savings banks were a bad thing? And when he criticized the then minister, do you know that that report of the Postmaster General of 1957 came out a few days before the minister took office? Do you know what he was saying then? He was reviewing the background of the savings banks and he was praising their usefulness, But if you compare the 1957 report with the 1958 one-


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis), but his time has expired.
(Text):
Shall the hon. member be permitted to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: I thank the house, and particularly the hon. Postmaster General, for their kindness. In allowing me to complete the few remarks I had to make on this matter, I am sure the passing of the other items will be speeded up. Therefore, I shall only say a few words more.
I said a word about the civil service commission, and I shall say, in closing, that while the minister used to criticize the government for its failure to deal with the matter of salaries and working conditions, his answer now is that everything is the responsibility of the Civil Service Commission. However, if the matter of salaries is the responsibility of the Civil Service Commission today, the situation was the same at the time, and the Postmaster General knew it. However, he claimed that the then minister should intervene and that he should look after postal employees and mail carriers. But the present minister has hardly done better, because he has not even taken the trouble to attend meetings to which he has been invited.
The Postmaster General has submitted increased travel expenses, after blaming

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former ministers for allowing travel expenses to go beyond $100 thousand. Now we find that travel expenses have reached the half million dollar mark. What has happened to his sense of thrift? Where is the minister's logic? And where was the waste at the time? And what corrective measures has he applied? A little earlier, I referred to travel expenses. I think the minister must have had his share of such expenditures.
I will not ask him the amount of his travelling expenses but I feel that 25,000 or
30,000	miles to say hello to his friends in the various post offices across the country must represent a rather heavy expenditure. Even though the minister should spend 40 years visiting the various post offices, he could not tour them all; so, he just provokes emulation, rivalry and jealousy among his colleagues of the cabinet.
From now on, when complaints will be made to the department and when thousands of persons will gather to make him representations, I hope he will attend such meetings instead of presiding over a jewellers' banquet-a thing which is very important and very legitimate, I agree-but when he has to choose between two festivities, two receptions, I would suggest that he select the one which is more related to the department in his charge.
The	minister	used to	refer	to	theslowness of postal delivery. I have here a whole series of articles lambasting the present government for the sluggishness of postal	delivery.	Naturally	it is	not	the
minister's fault. However, I have here a report from a paper which I would call a "yellow paper,"-which is certainly not Liberal, because it is Montreal-Matin,-in which it is said that the special delivery service is rotten. Consequently, I do not think the minister could very well take pride in such a statement, and boast of having improved the situation.
I even have editorials referring to the same situation. The newspaper Le Soleil, which is not over friendly towards the Liberal party, stated that even during conferences, there are complaints that letters take three days to reach their destination. Our friend, Mr. Austin Cross-whom the minister knows very well-has complained that a letter posted by him had been delivered to parliament three days later.
Such occurrences were infrequent before, but in order to criticize the slowness of postal delivery, when the Liberal party was in

power, the present ministers, who were then sitting on this side of the house, used to write themselves letters and got together in attempts to put the department on the spot.
The hon. Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming), who was then sitting in the opposition, used to write himself letters in 1954, to complain later on that his own letters were arriving a little late. I am convinced that the Postmaster General well remembers that.
And only recently, I was telling the hon. minister of a citizen of Montreal who complained that a letter addressed to him had reached him only six days later, while it should have been delivered to him three days before. Are we back to twice a day mail deliveries? When are we going to have twice-daily delivery in Notre Dame de Grace? Does the hon. minister recall the time when he used to claim that twice-daily deliveries would not cost more? Today, he has had a change of mind. However, he considered one-a-day delivery as absurd. Today the hon. minister says the opposite. He says people are satisfied. Why does the minister not admit that he did not have the necessary information at the time, or that he was talking through his hat? But no, we are still waiting for the twice-daily deliveries.
About publicity, the hon. minister professes to be in favour of it. Little wonder, for he has just been named the advertising man of the year. I even have his picture here; and I must say that we see it quite often in the newspapers. He has been named "the advertising man of the year". Consequently, he must not share the view of the present prime minister who used to criticize the government of the day, claiming they were spending too much on advertising.
Earlier tonight, the hon. minister dealt quite briefly with his scooters. We would like to have some information about that. Is the scooter of American manufacture? Can it be manufactured in Canada? The hon. minister knows we have unemployment in Canada. In fact, the city of Windsor, in the constituency of my hon. friend the member for Essex East (Mr. Martin), has thousands of unemployed; yet, they are experienced in that kind of work and they could very well manufacture scooters. Would it not be possible, at least to manufacture those scooters in Canada, in order to give employment to Canadians?

It would be interesting also to know the results of this experience. How many scooters have been tried? Are they left outside at night, or are they put in a garage? How many miles a gallon do you get out of them? We should be told how much they cost to operate? We should be told also if mail carriers will require a driving licence to operate those scooters.
In city, mail carriers have to carry their bags on their back, take them along wherever they go, and must not leave them unattended anywhere. When they have to walk up two or three flights of stairs, they are not allowed to let go of them. Does the same rule apply to scooter drivers or do they have to take the key up with them, and leave the scooters down in the street?
Those are questions that we would like the minister to answer ...
Mr. Chairman, those are all points on which we would appreciate a reply.
There has been talk, too, about postage stamps. Everyone knows what kind of stamps have been issued, considered from the standpoint of style, art and beauty. We also know how people have reacted to those famous stamps. The minister used to claim there were too many stamp issues; and he promised to improve the situation. I should like to know how many stamps were issued under the present government. Judging from newspaper reports, it seems the minister is issuing two new stamps a day, instead of having two mail deliveries a day. I should like to know what representations should be made with regard to stamps. Only this morning I was reading a suggestion contained in a dispatch from Dublin, which said:
(Text):
Dublin-A special postage stamp will appear here next week to commemorate the first Arthur Guiness, who 200 years ago started brewing the stout that still bears his name.
(Translation):
It might be a good suggestion for the Posmaster General, but then I feel he should consult the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) and find out whether he favours that type of publicity, in view of the fact that the Prime Minister gives receptions where nothing stronger than tea and coffee is served. However, if he wants to go ahead on his own and get results, I suggest that he take the Secretary of State along with him, for the Secretary of State claims a reception without a man's drink is just unheard of among civilized people.
Those, Mr. Chairman, are suggestions I wish to leave with the minister.
Before ending my remarks, I would ask the minister to give us some information con-66968-9-396J
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cerning thefts. Have there been fewer thefts than previously? I should think there have been as many, if not more. Last year, the minister gave a childish reply to a question on this point when he said: "Yes, there have been more thefts, but the amounts involved have been smaller." Such a situation is quite understandable. We are under a Conservative government, and of course, the
500,000	unemployed have no money at all to send through the mails. Moreover, those who still have jobs are earning only half as much money; therefore, money orders are only half as large. I think the minister's explanation is childish.
Furthermore, the minister was to have the R.C.M.P. keep an eye on post offices. What has been done on that score? Is the R.C.M.P. now working for the Postmaster General? Are R.C.M.P. officers assigned exclusively to the Post Office Department? Is that the reason why they could not be sent to Newfoundland at the time of the strike?
Those, Mr. Chairman, are things we should like to know.
I shall now close my remarks, not especially to please the hon. Postmaster General, but to please the hon. member for Lake St. John (Mr. Parizeau) who would like to leave tonight to join his family-his wife is quite charming, you know-and I would ask the Postmaster General to answer our questions and the objections we have raised. In other words, we want to know why things that used to be black are now considered white.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Mr. Chairman, if ever we have had an opportunity-
(Text):


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman-


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: I rose a while ago, Mr. Chairman; I think I should have the floor now. (Translation):
Mr. Chairman, if ever this House of Commons was witness to a farce, it was just now. It was doubtlessly due to the lack of judgment which is a characteristic of the hon. member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis). It was really disgusting to hear the hon. member for St. Denis holding forth tonight. I think all of us in this House of Commons, should unite in apologizing to the nation for such a silly and senseless speech as the one we have just heard.


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe did not understand,

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because, when I was speaking of silly matters, I was talking about what his minister had been doing.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: The contribution just made by the hon. member for St. Denis neither adds anything to nor subtracts anything from the fact that tonight we heard the most nonsensical speech ever uttered in this august house, and, as I said, we should all unite in apologizing to the nation for such nonsensical remarks, for a speech so utterly lacking in reason.
I do not want to waste more of the time of this house by describing the character of the hon. member for St. Denis, because Le Devoir has already sung his praises: The paper called him a puppet, stating that he is absolutely ridiculous.
(Text):


Mr. Brassard (Lapointe):: This has nothing to do with estimates.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: Probably; but these are the facts, anyway.
(Translation):


Mr. Johnson:: This is an accurate estimation of the hon. member.


J.-H.-Théogène Ricard: It is the most accurate estimation of the hon. member for St. Denis.
Mr. Chairman, we are now considering the estimates of the Postmaster General. Everybody will agree with me when I say that, since the Conservative party came to power, the postal system has been administered with foresight by a wise man, and, more than that, by a just man. At this point, I might recall, Mr. Chairman, that when the Liberal government came to power in 1935, 325 postmasters who had been appointed by the former government were dismissed from their jobs. It was because the Liberal government, which had come back into power, thought that those people were obstructing their activities. We of the Conservative party, may rejoice that we considered matters at their true value and we may boast that we have not dismissed any postmaster except if such action was fully justified.
Mr. Chairman, the few remarks I just made are enough to refute the foolish remarks of the hon. member for St. Denis, and I would now ask to be allowed to deal with a more serious matter.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Postmaster General to give serious consideration to the possibility of erecting as soon as convenient a post office building for the villages of St. Denis and St. Damase. Both
[Mr. Denis.)
villages are progressive communities and I believe that a post office, built in one or the other of those villages, would justify the expense incurred to this end.
I ask the Postmaster General to study carefully the possibility of introducing mail carrier service in the Boisjoli and Hertel districts, in the beautiful and progressive city of St. Hyacinthe. And I would like also to thank the Postmaster General for his understanding of the problems of our rural people, for, in many cases, he has authorized the mail delivery by carrier to relieve to some extent the route of rural carriers, a request that had been refused during many years by the former administration. I urge the minister to continue to understand our population and I am sure that it will help the re-election of the Conservative party in the province of Quebec for many decades to come.
(Text):


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I think the member who has just taken his seat completely missed the point of the speech made by the hon. member for St. Denis. We in this corner looked upon it as an interesting interlude in humorous pessimism and satire. Mixed with his humorous pessimism and satire were his criticisms and some of his suggestions. I must say before proceeding that we all recognize by this date in the session that the front bench of the remnants of the Liberal party-I think if I put it that way I will not get in trouble-contains a high percentage of persons with dramatic talent.
I am going to be quite parsimonious in the use of language this evening knowing the attitude of the committee and the hopes of everyone to conclude the business at as early a date as possible. I listened with great care and interest to the report made by the Postmaster General concerning his department and certain improvements in various branches. When I was listening I could not help thinking what a contrast there was between the mellow and genial exposition of the activities of the postal service of Canada by the Postmaster General this evening and the fire and brimstone that were breathed by the same person about two years ago when he was a member of the opposition. I remember that on one occasion it went on for a period of over two days. I sat very close to the hon. gentleman at that time and I could almost feel the heat on occasion.
However, regardless of the criticisms and to some extent the pessimism of the member for St. Denis, I think the post office service of Canada is a credit to the nation. It is

an enterprise in socialism that has been successful throughout the years and has been carried on not only by Progressive Conservatives but, as far as my constituency is concerned, has been carried on by people who are supporters of all parties in the house, people who are rural postmasters, rural mail couriers, postmen and so on. I think that is very splendid indeed. This service goes on night and day and when we consider the geographical extent of Canada, the physical features of our country and the many difficulties that have to be overcome compared with the provision of postal service in more densely populated countries, I think that our postal service is something to be proud of.
At this time I wish to express my appreciation of the courtesies I have received from the minister. When I write the minister letters he replies very promptly and fully and on a number of occasions he has gone into matters I have brought to his attention. I appreciate that. I think it is quite correct to say that the minister does his homework and works at his job. That is important to me. It is also true that the senior officials in Ottawa, the employees generally throughout the country, the postmasters, the rural postmasters and rural mail deliverers are a credit to the service we have in Canada at this time.
Having said that, I think we can best show our appreciation of the service rendered by the employees by giving some consideration to their representations to the government and the civil service commission for an increase in salaries. If there is one department that deserves serious consideration, the representations of the employees of the Post Office Department certainly do, the postmen who tramp the streets of the cities, villages and small towns, the rural mail carriers and postmasters in the smaller districts. In that connection I have thought for some time that serious consideration should be given to increasing the salaries of the rural postmasters. In fact, in some cases the remuneration is so unattractive that I know the department is having increasing difficulties under some circumstances in getting persons to take these positions.
With respect to the increase in salaries that has been sought by the civil service generally and by the employees of the Post Office Department, I recently read an article entitled, "Pay Boost Justified", by Mr. J. A. Norton in the C.S.A.C. Journal, March issue. I thought that Mr. Norton presented a very good case for consideration of the pay boost sought by the civil service. In the article he draws attention to the fact that the last general pay increase given to the civil service
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was in May, 1957, although there have been special increases for deputy ministers, commissioners and a few others. Since that time there has been an average increase of 9.5 per cent in the wages or salaries of employees in private industry and in some cases in provincial governments.
In addition, generally speaking the pay received by postmen, particularly the lower paid employees of the post office department, is considerably below the prevailing rates for similar services performed by persons in private industry in the districts concerned. I suggest that the employees of the post office department and the rural postmasters should receive consideration at the earliest possible time.
I want to say a word or two about postmasters over 70. I understand there is a new regulation which provides for the retirement of rural postmasters over 70. I can understand that having some general application but I do think that the regulations should provide for certain elasticity to meet special circumstances. I am quite sure that in very small places the department will find some difficulty in getting persons to replace the present postmasters. In my constituency there are a number of very estimable people who have performed this service for 30 or 40 years. There is one man to whom I might refer by way of illustration. He is a splendid old gentleman. The Postmaster General knows of the case. He is one of the few living monuments to Victorian Toryism in my constituency. He is loved by everybody. As a sentimental old revolutionary I want to say right here that I protest very much against the unfair treatment of some of these ancient Conservatives in my riding who have rendered such long and faithful service. I hope that the government will reconsider these cases, particularly where it is going to be very difficult to find someone to replace them.
I should like to say a word or two about the new post offices that are being built across the country. I think that the building of permanent, attractive, small post offices in the smaller villages and towns of Canada to a greater extent than has been carried on in the past is an excellent policy. I like the policy of the Department of Public Works, to build these post offices at a time when it will do the greatest good in relieving local unemployment. I am sure that the local people are quite willing to have the building of these post offices delayed for three, four, five or six months if it is going to serve that excellent purpose when they are being built and not have them built when there is

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plenty of activity going on in the construction field and so on. These small post offices are very much appreciated by the people in the smaller towns and villages. I have had a number of people write me about them and say they add to the local morale and pride. I hope that the government will continue this program.
I want to say a word or two about the ventilation and air conditioning in two of our larger post offices. I mentioned it on the public works estimates but I bring it to the minister's attention so that we will have the problem approached from both angles. Owing to the location of the city of Trail and the surrounding hills, which are not covered to date with a very heavy forest growth, there are at times very high temperatures in the summer months, and I think that some consideration should be given to air conditioning there during the two or three very hot summer months.
The next condition about which I complain is one from which the employees in both the Nelson and Trail post offices suffer. I was in the Nelson post office and watched the unloading of the postal bags. Lint seems to come off the bags and get into the air as a result of the handling of hundreds of bags and the ventilation in both post offices is such that the lint is not carried away by the ventilating system.
It hangs in the atmosphere above the sorting tables, shelves and bins. I told the local employees of both post offices I would bring the matter to the attention of the Postmaster General on his estimates and I have kept my word in that respect.
Now, before I conclude I do want to say a word with reference to the remarks made by the hon. member for St. Denis. He spoke with rather subtle humour, but with an element of congratulation very cleverly concealed, and said that there had been an improvement in the design of the stamps since the present Postmaster General took office. I recall that the present Postmaster General used to criticize the stamps issued by the former administration, and he was then the fire and brimstone member as far as the Post Office Department was concerned. However, I think he has done something to improve them.
If I remember correctly, during the last session he said he would enlarge the number of people with whom he would consult in this connection. I presume he has done that because I think there has been a decided improvement, and I have heard other people say that there has been a slow but progressive improvement in the design of Canadian stamps. Mind you, we have a long way

to go yet when we look at the beautiful stamps issued by some of the very small South American countries, the small South Sea islands, Borneo, and places like that. I think we have a long way to go yet, but I do think there has been improvement.
I want to refer to the stamp that the Postmaster General issued to commemorate the associated countrywomen of the world, at the suggestion of the Federated Women's Institutes of Canada. I like the idea of having co-operation with such organizations, and I suggest that approach should be continued. In this case, the women's institutes commemorative stamp committee was composed of Mrs. T. H. Howes, Mrs. James Haggerty, and Mrs. E. J. Roylance, who is a postmistress at the present time. These ladies did a very effective job in connection with the distribution of these stamps. I think this practice ought to be continued, whether it is in connection with, shall I say, occupations such as agriculture or mining or lumbering, forestry or certain trades and crafts, or whether it is commemorating a historical event that may occur at any place across this country from time to time, or historical persons. I trust the time will not be far distant when the Postmaster General will be introducing a stamp, the central figure of which will be the Mica creek dam on the Columbia river.
I like the idea of getting the co-operation of public organizations, because I am one who believes that if democracy is to function in the days ahead we have to get an increasing number of people in Canada to accept some personal responsibility and interest in all levels of government, whether it be federal or provincial. We also have to get larger numbers of people co-operating in advising on committees such as this, so that we have a greater enmeshing of those who govern with those who are being governed. This is the type of administrative twine, I should say, that will build a strong democracy.
I look forward to continued improvement in the design of stamps and, on the part of the minister, continued co-operation with various groups in Canada who by working with the department or other government organizations feel themselves to be a part of the government of Canada instead of something separate and aside. That is all I have to say at this time.


Mr. Weichel:: My remarks concerning the post office estimates will be brief. We all agree that post office business is big business and requires constant action on the part of the Postmaster General, his deputy, the officials in the department and all the em-

ployees in order that this improved service cannot but go on to greater things from day to day.
As a former postmaster I was very pleased to read an article which appeared in the postal Tribune, which is published in Montreal, on April 19, 1959. I am going to ask our Postmaster General if he would be good enough to read that article later on in the evening. It refers especially to some of the visits he has made. I was impressed with these remarks, as I can well remember that in my 35 years as a postmaster and supervising postmaster I never had the privilege of receiving a visit from any postmaster general until our present minister visited my office and others in my constituency. I should like to commend the Postmaster General for this most appreciated change in policy. This is a step in the right direction and his personal contact with the employees has given these civil servants the feeling that they are an important part of a great organization working for the good of the Canadian people. I hope he may continue the practice for many years.
I understand that improvements in the Post Office Department have been gradual, but there is ample evidence that all changes have been to the benefit of the service and of the employees who have been loyal in their daily duties. This loyalty is recognized by the Postmaster General and I feel certain that he will be ready to assist these fine employees with all their problems. On one of my recent trips to my constituency I was privileged to visit the Kitchener post office. This city has grown to such an extent that I found the present space in this building inadequate. In presenting this condition to the Post Office Department I suggested that a new post office should be built in the near future in order that the postmaster and his staff could continue the same excellent service that has been provided in the past. My recommendation is being investigated by the department, and I do appreciate the fine cooperation that has been extended to me in regard to this urgent matter.
In closing my remarks, Mr. Chairman, as a former employee, I should like to extend the appreciation of all employees to the Canadian postmasters association and its affiliates in each of the provinces. These associations have done splendid work and are grateful to the Post Office Department for their kind assistance and co-operation.
(Translation):


Augustin Brassard: I should like at the outset to congratulate the minister on his performance this evening. I am sure that everybody will agree that his performance
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tonight was second to none which he used to put up when he sat on the opposition benches.
Mr. Chairman I listened very carefully to the very clear and elegantly phrased remarks of the hon. member-is it for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard)-about the speech made tonight by the hon. member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis). I am in complete agreement with the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) about what he said in his very first sentence, i.e., that the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot had completely missed the boat, when listening to the hon. member for St. Denis.
The hon. member for St. Denis was perhaps ironic, sarcastic and humorous, and I am not too much surprised that the hon. member who followed him should have failed to grasp fully what he meant. Besides, I took the trouble of looking up the definition of the word "humour" in order to make its meaning clear to the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot.
The Quillet dictionary, page 2826, says:
Humour is actually something which cannot be defined: it is a form of pleasant irony, particular to the British turn of mind-
But I must admit here that the French have improved on it...
-which is both satirical and sentimental; a mixture of gaiety and sadness, of sensibility and bluntness, of deep philosophy and charming levity.
After reading the definition of the word humour in Quillet dictionary, Mr. Chairman, we are not surprised that the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot did not understand the gist of the speech made by the hon. member for St. Denis.
Mr. Chairman, I should like to take a few minutes to put two or three requests to the hon. Postmaster General. I hear one of my hon. friends say that they also have some requests to put to him. I hope they will do so.
First, I should like to congratulate the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) for having appointed the hon. member for Notre-Dame de Grace (Mr. Hamilton) as Postmaster General. He is the only one, in fact, who, while in the opposition, was dead set against one department, and who got it once the Conservatives took office. The Minister of Finance, the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) for his part, was dead set against the C.B.C., and he was appointed Minister of Finance. The Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Green), who was dead set against the merchant marine, was appointed to the position I just mentioned, as well as Minister of Public Works. There is also... I feel, Mr. HOUSE OF COMMONS
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Chairman, that I should come back to the subject under study before you ask me to do so.
Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Postmaster General to kindly consider the representations of mail carriers in my constituency, and, I think, in other constituencies in my area. Mail carriers in the city of Jonquiere each have to serve from 600 to 625 homes. Carriers in the city of Alma, which is located in the riding of my hon. friend from Lake St. John (Mr. Parizeau) each serve from 450 to 470 homes.


An hon. Member:: Is this a matter of politics?


Augustin Brassard: No, I do not think any politics are involved. However, I should like the Postmaster General to investigate and see whether it is not asking too much to have mail carriers serve between 600 and 625 homes. I know the minister showed great concern for people when sitting on this side, and I am sure he is still concerned. I therefore ask him to kindly have this matter looked into by his officials, to determine whether something might be done in this regard.
There is another problem arising in Jonquiere and Kenogami, and I refer to the distribution of circulars. Within a period of three months, at Jonquiere-I cannot give the exact figure-but mail carriers had to deliver thousands of circulars for which the post office charges 1J cent postage. I think it has often been requested, particularly by the postal employees association, that a J cent bonus be paid to give some encouragement to mail carriers when they have to deliver such circulars, because this involves a great deal of extra work, and with the 600 or 615 or 625 homes they have to serve, I think it is really asking too much.
I therefore urge the minister to give serious consideration to this matter and to see whether some way could be found to meet the problem.
Before resuming my seat, Mr. Chairman, I would also point out to the minister that part of Jonquiere, which is called Jonquiere-North, with a population of close to 7,000 people, has no post office. To be frank, I must say there once was a sub-post office there, but some irregularities occurred, and the office had to be closed. However, nothing further was done. Perhaps the minister could send an inspector in the area to meet thq people concerned, and find out whether the

situation might be corrected. People living across the Sable river, which runs through Jonquiere, have to cross the river into St. Dominique parish to have a money-order made up, or to register a letter. There have been many complaints, and people have been writing to the Post Office Department in this connection. I therefore ask the minister to investigate the matter and to send someone in my constituency to work out a solution to this problem, which is really urgent.


Mr. Deschaieleis:: I just want to make a few brief remarks. First, I want to congratulate my colleague the member for St. Denis (Mr. Denis) for his remarkable account of the errors and the unkept promises that the Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton) has made since he has left this side of the house.
Now, if the hon. member for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard) is interested in reading silly speeches, ridiculous suggestions, destructive criticisms, unfair insinuations, I invite him to read the speeches that the hon. member for Notre Dame de Grace made between 1953 and 1957.
(Text):
I should like to say, Mr. Chairman, at this stage that we are worried over the fact that the costs of this department are increasing steadily year after year, especially because the services are not improving at the same pace. In fact, according to the latest statistics furnished by the minister himself on June 24 we have evidence that non-delivered letters have increased from 36,000 to nearly 42,000 during the period from 1956-57 to 1957-58. This continuous increase in the cost-


William McLean Hamilton: Would you give the figure for the delays 1 gave in that same report?


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I will leave this matter to the minister himself. I am speaking now just of non-delivered letters. I am sorry if in his statement the minister forgot to mention so many important items such as this one. Then I will continue my remarks. This continuous increase in the cost gives us the opportunity tonight to salute the hon. member for Notre Dame de Grace as the most expensive Postmaster General Canada has ever had since confederation.


Mr. Hamilton (Noire Dame de Grace):: Good value comes high.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: These increases in cost are really surprising when we have at the head of the administration a man who so often professed a philosophy favouring public

savings. We on this side of the house of course are not against an increase in the cost but we want the services to improve at the same pace. We do not want to have promises; we do not want to have words. We want to have improvements for the Canadian citizens especially-and I repeat this-when we have at the head of the administration a minister who when he was on this side of the chamber was distinguished much more by his imagination than by his judgment. I do not hesitate to use these words because I know I am dealing with a man who can take a well-deserved punch on the chin and come back for more. I have a few other questions that I intend to ask when we reach further items.


William Moore Benidickson: I wish to associate
myself not only with the hon. member for St. Denis but with the hon. member for Kootenay West in respect to the comments they have made on the minister's estimates.
The previous speaker indicated that he was disappointed because some of the things which seemed to be very prominent in the intentions of the minister when he was sitting on this side have not been fulfilled. The hon. member for Kootenay West indicated that he thought, as I do, that the minister is a hard-working member of the government who pays great attention to his department. I want to endorse that view.
The other point I want to make is this. I want the minister's guidance-I do not think he will be minister for very long; maybe just another two years-I want to know for the next two years what principles he feels are proper in his department. I, myself, know something about being on the government side and during that period I always wanted to be relieved of personal correspondence if it was of a routine nature and if it did not require ministerial or personal judgment. Now I want to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that having that in mind I thought I was sparing him from correspondence which would require his attention, unnecessarily as it seemed to me, although it involved something in my constituency which was very important. I refer to the extension of a letter carrier service to a section of the town of Kenora.
I have made an analysis of my file and of my diary and it involves as many as 40 items in the last two years during the time the minister has been in charge of the Post Office Department. It involves letters, telephone calls and other approaches to his officials. The minister and I are friends, and if I had wanted to utilize that friendship I could have called the minister, but 66968-9-397
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instead, with regard to these 40 items, I communicated with senior officials of his department. Now I simply want to ask the minister whether or not it will continue to be his policy that when a decision is made which is of interest to a member of parliament who has been operating in this fashion and making 40-odd contacts with his department, he proposes, henceforth, to advise the defeated candidate in the constituency of the member concerned ten days before he advises the member of parliament who has taken an interest in the matter all along.
The alternative course which I could have pursued during those two years would have been to ask the minister questions on the orders of the day about the progress which was being made, or to bother him by personal correspondence. I should like to have an indication of whether or not it is going to be the standard policy to pull out the rug from under a member of parliament who has been active with regard to a matter which is of concern to his people. As I say, my diary indicates 40 separate contacts with the hon. gentleman's officials. I thought I was sparing the minister a good deal of trouble. I like the minister, and I could have bothered him if I had chosen to do so.


Chesley William Carter: I should like to associate myself with those who have paid compliments to the Postmaster General and I should also like to voice my appreciation of the consideration which I have received from the officials of his department both here in Ottawa and in the district office at St. John's. I should also like to support the plea which was made by the hon. member for Kootenay West for an increase in the salaries of the postmasters and mail carriers. The complaint which I have to bring before the Postmaster General at this time is that the salaries of a great many of the postmasters in Newfoundland have decreased during the past year.
Hon. members may not be aware of this, but before confederation the postal and telegraph services of Newfoundland were combined under a department of the government and the employees had the status of civil servants. After confederation the job was split up and the people engaged in it acquired two masters. As to their postal duties, they are responsible to the Postmaster General in Ottawa, and with regard to their telegraphic duties they were responsible to the superintendent of Canadian National Telegraphs. But they still carried on exactly as before, keeping the same hours and doing the same job and in their own minds they still regarded themselves as civil servants. The important thing to remember about these people is that they have

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no opportunity to supplement their income in other ways, because their C.N.T. duties require them to be at their posts at all hours of the day.
Last year I brought before the house a vigorous complaint that Canadian National Telegraphs had made a decision to change the instruments which these people were using from what were called wireless sets to radio telephones. My complaint was based on two grounds. The first was that this change resulted in a lower standard of service and the second was that it resulted in a drastic reduction in the salaries of these postmaster-telegraphers as we call them now. That was bad enough, but I have recently received several letters informing me that another hardship has been imposed upon them in that their annual leave has been taken from them. Because they are no longer using wireless instruments, it is said that they now have a different status and are no longer eligible for annual leave. But they are doing exactly the same work as before. As I have said, their salaries have already been reduced and in some cases almost to a bare existence level, therefore these people cannot afford to have holidays at their own expense. If they cannot get holidays with pay, they cannot have holidays at all. It seems to me that somewhere we have on our statute books legislation which requires all federal employees to be given two weeks holiday with pay.
I want to ask the Postmaster General to look into this matter because I attribute a certain amount of the responsibility to him since it was the post office which originally made this agreement with Canadian National Telegraphs. Therefore they have a responsibility to see that these people are treated humanely and justly.
The other point I want to bring to the minister's attention is the matter of the small rural post offices which were also referred to by the hon. member for Kootenay West. In my own province and in my riding we have what amounts to discrimination in the establishment of these post offices because it all depends on whether a settlement had a post office building before confederation. There are lots of settlements that have sprung up since confederation which still cannot be provided with a post office building under the present policy of the federal government although this same government does provide many smaller settlements with post office buildings.
A settlement that has 70 or 80 families is too large a settlement to be served from a room in somebody's residence and that is what is happening in a great many cases. I urge the minister to look into the situation

and to revise the policy so that post office buildings will be provided on the basis of need and not on the basis of revenue or on the basis of a building having existed prior to confederation.


Mr. Smith (Lincoln):: Mr. Chairman, my remarks at this time will be brief. I should like to bring to the attention of the minister the matter of summer uniforms for the letter carriers. During the last two or three weeks I have received several complaints from letter carriers in my community stating that the uniform they have to wear in the summer months is too heavy. I made some inquiries into the matter and as far as I can determine there is no distinctive summer uniform for letter carriers. I feel that this is a matter to which the Postmaster General might give serious consideration because our policemen, firemen and other public servants do have light weight uniforms for summer wear.
I also wish to concur in what has been said in connection with small post offices. In the riding I represent we still have a number of small rural post offices that certainly are not a credit to the department. I feel that in the years to come everything possible should be done to eliminate those post offices that have inadequate space. I am sure the minister will give that his serious attention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
295. Operations-including salaries and other expenses of staff post offices, district offices, railway mail service staffs, and supplies, equipment and other items for revenue post offices, including administration, $103,037,621.
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I have a question to ask the minister which I hope comes under this item. I am interested in knowing who holds the contract for parcel post service in the city of Three Rivers. Would the minister have that information?


William McLean Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, my officers are on the way down. I might be able to get the information for the hon. member in a moment.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I should like to know who is the holder of the contract for parcel post for the city of Three Rivers at this time. Also, were tenders asked for by the department before the granting of this contract? Could the minister give me the names of those who tendered and also the amounts of the respective tenders? I should also like to know who was the previous holder of this contract and the reason for its termination.


William McLean Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, since we have approximately 8,000 transportation contracts of one sort and another in existence in Canada I think it

unlikely that the details of each one of the tenders would be available here this evening. If the hon. gentleman would be satisfied, though, I would be delighted to send to the department for the information which I could give him in approximately 15 or 20 minutes or I could give it to him in the morning. We certainly could acquire it for him.


William Moore Benidickson: As I understand it, Mr. Chairman, the minister has not replied to my question. Would he hope that hon. members on this side would address their correspondence particularly to him in order that he could reply personally on something that perhaps we did not regard as controversial or political?


William McLean Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, before replying I was waiting until we had collected all the questions but if the committee wishes it I could perhaps answer those questions that have been raised up to this point before going any further.
I might deal first with the remarks of the hon. member for St. Denis who rehashed, as he did last year, my speeches of the last four or five years and threw in a few new newspaper quotations. One of the main themes of his remarks was that these things were visionary, these things were not actually coming into being, these things were looking to the future. The hon. gentleman has only to ask the additional 125,000 householders who are now having mail delivered to their doors this year, the 16,400 people on rural routes who are getting mail delivered to their homes for the first time. The hon. gentleman can go and look at the new machinery, particularly in the Vancouver and Winnipeg post offices, which is more modern perhaps than any other parcel handling machinery in the world. The hon. gentleman can ask those people who for the first time-to cite one of a dozen examples

are now receiving receipts at post offices without having to bring them in themselves. The hon. gentleman could go out to Vancouver and look at the new scooters which are under test out there. The hon. gentleman may not like our new stamp designs but he can read the publications of the philatelic world and find credit being given to the department for improvements in Canadian stamp design. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that these are very real and present improvements and achievements in the department.
The hon. member made reference somewhat critically to our budgetary situation, suggesting that I had looked forward to a break-even point as far as the departmental operation was concerned and that I felt the department should be operated on a break-even basis.
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We are operating on a break-even basis. This year we have a deficit of $173,000 on a total expenditure of $180 million-odd. I suggest to the hon. member for St. Denis that if there is any possibility of coming closer to a breakeven point than $173,000 on an expenditure of $180 million-odd, I should be very much surprised.


William Moore Benidickson: And your premises are charged to the Department of Public Works?


William McLean Hamilton: Yes, very definitely. On the other hand, of course, we give a great deal of free mail service including that given to the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River and all other hon. members of this committee.


William Moore Benidickson: I do not use it very much.


William McLean Hamilton: There are a number of other areas in which we give service which to some extent would offset that.
The hon. member for St. Denis in talking about our new equipment referred to possible reductions in staff and the worries of the staff with respect to automation. I wish to assure him that the staff themselves-and this is the important consideration-are not worried about the automation referred to. They are forward looking people. In their postal Tribune for April, 1958, which is their own official organ, they had this to say in their editorial:
Postal employees need not fear automation providing the authorities and the workers use the benefits of automation for the improvement of working conditions as well as the service. While machine may replace much manual sortation, it will create many higher technical positions. Some employees now manually sorting mail must be prepared to change over to new duties. It must also follow that employees will expect to receive higher compensation for assuming higher technical responsibilities. This we hope will be settled around the bargaining table.
This, we hope will be settled around the bargaining table, and will be a part of the responsibility which their association will assume in this connection. I want to assure the committee that our own employees are looking forward to these improvements with the same anticipation and with the same interest as the administration of the department.
The hon. member for St. Denis was somewhat critical of something which is frankly quite close to my heart, and this is my practice of travelling across this country in order to keep in touch with postal operations and with postal employees, because I have made it very clear, Mr. Chairman, that I believe the foundation of any successful operation of the magnitude and size of the post office is

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people, people at all levels, and nothing else, and that there is a responsibility on the part of the minister of this department to know what is going on in the department at every level and in every part of the country.
I had a quotation in my notes but I had not intended to deal with it or quote it, and I am doing so only because of the point which the hon. member raised because it proves the value of these constant contacts. I find in the association's magazine for April, 1959, the following editorial:
It is well known that our Postmaster General when visiting a city, makes it his business to go through the post office. He talks to as many employees as possible and asks very frank questions to which he expects a frank reply. His attitude is friendly and he seems determined to find out all he can about the service and the problems of the employees. This is a radical change from the policy of former postmasters general and gives the employees the feeling that they are not just a number.
The hon. member for St. Denis can laugh all he likes, but when I get that kind of appreciation from the staff I intend to continue that policy.


William Moore Benidickson: Are they going to get an increase in pay?


William McLean Hamilton: That, Mr. Chairman, is a matter of government policy which will be announced in due course; but my primary concern is in those fields where I have some responsibility.


William Moore Benidickson: I approve your travels.


William McLean Hamilton: I think that reasonably deals with the hon. member for St. Denis.
I might give another quotation from this employees' publication which in the past has not been very complimentary at times to the department. This is from the April, 1959, issue:
While the change has been gradual, there is ample evidence that all changes have been to the benefit of the service and the employees.
There, they mean the public service. This is what they said in their news magazine about the relationship with our senior officials of the department.
I will be very glad to take up the points raised by the hon. members for St. Hyacinthe-Bagot, Waterloo North, Lapointe, and Maisonneuve-Rosemont. Because the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont put a very misleading figure on the record, I might just point out that he referred only to nondelivery of mail when he quoted the figure of 6,000 and 41,000-odd. I think he should also put on the record information which was given in the same return to show the delays were down from 30,000, to 26,500, and he might also have kept in mind that

the over-all picture showed a general reduction of 10,000 in those inquiries this year specifically since-


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: A few moments ago when the minister referred to the non-delivery was he quoting delays?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Delays are down from 29,966.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Was the minister comparing the period 1955 to 1957-58?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: No;
I was comparing the year 1957-58 to 1956-57.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Because the figures I gave were for the period 1955-56. The 1957-58 figures cannot be accurate enough to quote.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: understand. As far as the member for Kenora-Rainy River is concerned, I will be very glad to look into the point which he raised and see what can be done about it, but I want to assure him that any time he wants information, either in this house or outside, I will be delighted to give it to him just as promptly as possible.


William Moore Benidickson: I know that, but I had used the other method.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: think that covers the situation generally. The member for Burin-Burgeo raised the same point he raised last year.


William Moore Benidickson: May I interrupt the
minister at this point; I think it is a pertinent point. I think the betterment that was made available that pertains to my town of Kenora was as a result of a conference with postal people last autumn where certain regulations were made more agreeable. Would the minister have available that new information because it would apply to a great number of other ridings, or would he prefer to give that information at a later time?
Mr. Hamillon (Noire Dame de Grace:
Basically, what the hon. member is referring to, I think, is the practice we have developed of bringing in our senior officials from all over Canada for a discussion on their operating problems, and out of that arose last year a proposal to change our regulations in the letter carrier service to allow us to include many of those suburban areas that previously had been excluded. While I cannot be certain, because we do not have the information here-again we can get it for the hon. member-I believe that this service which was instituted in Kenora arose out of our new regulations.


William Moore Benidickson: Yes; but, Mr. Chairman, is it now in the form of a regulation, something in writing, that would be available to all of us?


William McLean Hamilton: Oh,
yes, very definitely, Mr. Chairman.


William Moore Benidickson: Because previously my understanding was that there were certain limitations as to the number of calls that would have to be made, according to the elevation of the land, and whether or not it was possible for the carrier to find a convenient location for his call, and that kind or thing. If that has been changed, is it available to the public?


William McLean Hamilton: Yes, Mr. Chairman, and I will be very glad to see that tomorrow the hon. member gets an outline of the existing regulation covering our extensions.


George Ewart Nixon: Before this item passes, Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of points that I would like to bring to the minister's attention. The first one is the remuneration paid to postmasters in rural post offices, which I believe is worthy of some consideration and survey. I have in mind one instance in particular, that of the Echo Bay post office in my riding, where the remuneration was cut from $2,400 to $2,000 since the present postmaster was appointed in July, 1957. In the meantime, this man has provided a new post office quarters, centrally located, light, heat, telephone, insurance and so on, and new postal boxes have been installed for the convenience of the public. A request to the district office for an increase to $2,700 was refused. The postal authorities claim that his is a part-time job but the post office is open from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m., Monday through Friday, and from 8.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. Saturdays. I am sure that many other rural post offices are probably working under the same or similar difficulties, and in view of the fact that since the close of the fiscal year 1956-57 to the end of the year 1958-59 post office expenses have risen by over $30 million and estimates for the current year will add more than $1 million, it is not fair that small economies should be practised to the extent of reducing remuneration where increasingly good service is being rendered. I would suggest to the minister that he have a survey made and see if this abuse, if it is in order to call it that, cannot be corrected.
I have another matter which I should like to draw to the attention of the minister having to do with the rural directories which are produced yearly. I do not believe that they are receiving proper attention when
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being compiled because in many instances they do not provide an accurate record of people living in the community. For instance, I have found that people who have lived in certain areas for years have been omitted, occupations listed are incorrect and the names of new residents are not being added. It would appear that the same list is just reprinted from year to year, which I hope is not the case. I would ask the minister to make a personal note of this matter with a view to having more accurate listings in the next issue.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to echo the words of the hon. member for Algoma West on both points. The rural directory is of very great advantage now but it could be of very much greater advantage if it were kept a little more up to date. I made a suggestion to the minister privately that I think would make it very much more effective. I suggested that he might indicate by an asterisk whether persons listed are married or unmarried. For some purposes it would make the document very much more valuable and it might be that the minister could raise the price a little. The hon. member for Essex East has some ideas on the subject which I do not think I will repeat to the committee.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Constructive
ideas.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Very constructive ideas, I might add. I should also like to echo what the hon. member for Algoma West has said about revenue post offices which in fact, whether or not the department says they are part-time, have to be kept open every day. That is particularly true in the province of Newfoundland where the telegraph systems are also in the same offices, and for many of these postmasters their remuneration is ridiculously low in this day and age. The minister knows, of course, that he spends a great deal less in Newfoundland than he does in other provinces because he only has five rural mail carriers in the whole province compared with 177 in Prince Edward Island, 391 in New Brunswick and 355 in Nova Scotia.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: In
fairness would the hon. member read the second part of the answer which indicates that there are more post offices in Newfoundland than three out of four of the Atlantic provinces?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, there is a slight
difference. In Nova Scotia there are 914 revenue post offices, in New Brunswick 533, in Prince Edward Island 91 and in Newfoundland 605. Considering that the area of Newfoundland is about three times that

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of New Brunswick and about four times that of Nova Scotia, there does not seem to be any great disparity there. The figures are not out at all when you compare five rural mail carriers to 355, 391 and even 177 in Prince Edward Island.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I listened carefully to the answer the minister gave a moment ago to the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River with reference to government policy as to salary increases. I do not want to go into the matter at length other than to tell the minister that I have received from the constituency I represent a number of letters concerning the salaries that are being paid to mail carriers and others at the present time. I should like to know from the minister whether there are several categories of mail carriers across the country. Are carriers in cities, for instance, paid more than carriers in towns or are they all paid a uniform rate? If they are all paid a uniform rate, can the minister indicate when they may expect to get an increase in salary because I am sure that the commission and the department have taken into consideration the fact that the cost of living has gone up from the time the last increase took place. Without giving away any secrets, I wonder whether the minister could give some indication whether or not a salary increase is in mind for these carriers?


William McLean Hamilton: In
answer to the hon. member for Laurier, all our letter carriers across Canada are paid the same basic salary with the normal civil service increases. As far as an increase or change in their salary is concerned, that is one of the matters which I presume is under consideration at the present time by the civil service commission and about which we have had a number of questions in the house recently. It is something which is not directly the responsibility or concern of the department although we are very interested in the matter generally.


Lionel Chevrier: Are the minister and the department concerned to the extent of making representations to the civil service commission about increases for the various employees of his department?


William McLean Hamilton: From time to time the commission will discuss matters with us but I think I can say that remarkably effective representations have been made both by the letter carriers association and the Canadian postal employees association and I doubt whether there is anything we can add to their representations.

With respect to the matter of revenue postmasters, their remuneration is based essentially on a measurement of the work going through their offices. The particular case which was referred to a little while ago probably arises because when the work drops in an office we hesitate, as long as the existing postmaster is there, to reduce his stipend, but when the postmaster changes we then bring the stipend in line with the current volume of work. These are rate and work measurements which apply right across the country and which generally prove to be pretty fair.


George Ewart Nixon: Does the minister not think that another look should be taken at this arrangement?


William McLean Hamilton: am sorry, Mr. Chairman. I should have said that I certainly will look into the particular case which the hon. member drew to our attention to see if, as occasionally happens, there is something here which is unusual that deserves consideration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The whole formula needs to be looked at again.


Chesley William Carter: The Postmaster General indicated in his reply that I was repeating something which I raised last year. In case he may have misunderstood me, I want to make it perfectly clear that the situation which I have described with respect to postmaster-telegraphers is a new development which has taken place within the last three of four weeks, and one which also represents a further deterioration in their financial position.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I should like very briefly to support the complaint raised by the hon. member for Algoma West with respect to the post office directory. I have felt, at times, it is not very frequently revised. In looking over my list a few days ago I saw one man's name and his occupation was listed as labourer. He was a labourer 40 years ago, but he has gone a long way since then. It is apparent the directory is not kept up to date.


James Roy Tucker: I am sure the Postmaster General will agree with me that the hon. member for Trinity-Conception has not given him or his officials any unnecessary work this session. I shall not now delay the passage of his estimates unduly. However, there are one or two matters I should like to bring to his attention.
A short time ago I wrote the Postmaster General on behalf of the residents of Goose Cove, Trinity Bay, who wanted better postal service. An investigation was made and a

proper reply was received from the Postmaster General but the application was turned down. In view of the fact the residents of Goose Cove have to go to the post office at Trinity, I should be grateful if the Postmaster General would give consideration to the placing of a letterbox at Trinity Junction where letters could be mailed, thus avoiding a trip to the nearest post office at Trinity. I understand that before the Canadian National station at Trinity Junction was burned, there was a place in which these letters could be placed. I should like also to know why some of the new post offices in Newfoundland have lock boxes to which practically everyone has access.
For instance, the post office at Bell Island has about 1,000 boxes, and it is a known fact that any person who has hired a box and possesses a key can open from two to twenty other boxes with the same key. This has no doubt caused much embarrassment and concern to the postmaster at that settlement, as well as to the R.C.M.P. and the holders of post office box keys. I understand also that pilfering has taken place there, but of this I am not sure.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact the stamp vending machine at the general post office in St. John's is so often out of order, I wonder if the minister would give consideration to supplying a second machine.


Frank Howard: This seems to be the appropriate time in the evening to raise a particular matter. It has to do with the rural directory to which reference was made. I have just one question to pose to the minister. The directory I have, which is for the constituency of Skeena, in the abbreviated indications for occupation of the individuals listed has, in a number of places, the initials, "ind." without any indication in the table as to what "ind." means. I wonder if the minister could explain to me for what the initials stand?


William McLean Hamilton: must admit that both the officials who are with me and I are stumped, but we shall see if we can get the information in a moment or two. We shall certainly look into the matters in Newfoundland which were raised by the hon. member who spoke a few moments ago.
For the benefit of the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont, who asked me a question a few moments ago about parcel post service, I may say that the former contractor was Mr. Clement Carignan, who held a contract which expired on June 30, 1959, on the basis of 9 cents per item delivered. As a result of tenders the contract was passed to Mr. Albert Desaulniers, who tendered on the basis of 8 cents per item. You will see, there-
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fore, as a result of these tenders there was a substantial reduction in our cost.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Was he the only tenderer?


William McLean Hamilton: As
I said, this is the only information I have here. I shall get the other information as quickly as I can.


William Moore Benidickson: Does the Postmaster
General select the designs for stamps? We have heard criticism not only of the current stamps but of the stamps selected by his predecessors. What is the process in connection with the selection of a design for a stamp?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: am afraid I am the guilty one in that connection. I noticed in looking over the designs for a number of years under my predecessors that they were all authorized by the deputy postmaster general until I came into the picture. Apparently, the ministers had nothing to do with them. I must say I have taken an interest in these stamp designs. The practice which is followed is that, having decided on the subject, we ask one or more artists to prepare a design which is then reviewed, not only by myself but by various other people.


William Moore Benidickson: Is this a patronage
matter?


William McLean Hamilton: Very definitely, no. Then the design is approved and goes through the normal processes of production. In order to give the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River some idea how difficult this situation can be, I may say we are currently working on a new air letter, aerogram design. We had some seven different designs and I took them with me the other day when I was speaking to a stamp club. I think there were about 20 people around at the end of the meeting, and I asked each one of them to choose his favourite design. Then, I tabulated the results. There were five people who chose one design; four people who chose another; three people who chose another; three people who chose another, and two other designs were selected by one person each. What I am saying is that out of about 17 people their choices were spread amongst six out of seven designs.


William Moore Benidickson: But the minister will
decide.


William McLean Hamilton: Therefore somebody has to accept responsibility for deciding, and that happens to be me. I would remind him that if he did not like the associated countrywomen of the world stamp, which is possible because some



G270 HOUSE OF COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Post Office
people did not, I think he will find the St. Lawrence seaway stamp and the one commemorating the Queen's visit to Canada, very good ones indeed.
Charles Ronald McKay Granger: I should like to make one or two remarks about the salaries of postmasters in the small communities in Newfoundland which are quite low. I believe these salaries include a small amount for rent, out of which must come the cost of repairs and maintenance of the post office quarters. I would just ask the minister to keep this matter under review, as I believe he has.


Mr. Bourque:: I should like to ask a couple of questions of the minister, but before doing so I should like to say that I differ slightly from the remarks made by my colleague, the hon. member for St. Denis. He said the minister had gone all the way to Sydney to say hello to the people of Sydney. I have known the minister for some 25 years, ever since he was a little lad, and I am sure that he is too good a politician to go to Sydney just to say hello. While there he would take advantage of saying a long goodbye, so we can divide the cost of that trip by two and make it only 50 per cent because I am sure he took advantage of that opportunity.
I should like to ask the minister a question. Last year he told us that in carrying preferential rate mail there was a deficit of $18 million. What was the deficit this year?


William McLean Hamilton: Actually, Mr. Chairman, we make an analysis of our mail once every three years and on that analysis we base an estimate which carries for three years. These figures are in the course of preparation at the present time. We would expect to have them in October of this year which would then give us our comparison for October 1956 or thereabouts when the last estimates were prepared.


Romuald Bourque: When the minister gets those figures, will he be able to give us a breakdown of what the loss is for carrying United States periodicals, etc. and what the loss is for the Canadian periodicals?


William McLean Hamilton: No,
unfortunately because one periodical is classed with another. Many of these United States periodicals are mailed right here in Canada and we will not be able to differentiate between Canadian and United States periodicals.


William Moore Benidickson: But it is millions.


Romuald Bourque: But as my colleague the hon. member for St. Denis has said, you get statistics on the number of miles travelled to deliver mail and how many pounds went across in the year. You get statistics for

practically everything. I think it is of the utmost importance that we should know what the cost is for carrying the United States mail-that is for periodicals, newspapers, et cetera

and what the cost is for Canadian mail. When an increase is put into effect, it is the Canadian editor that pays. Therefore we should know definitely what the breakdown is between the cost of United States periodicals and Canadian periodicals. Does the minister think it would be possible to get that information?


William McLean Hamilton: course, Mr. Chairman, I think there are two points here to be dealt with without debating the matter overly long. One is that it is not necessarily the Canadian publication that pays. The great majority of United States periodicals which are carried in the Canadian mail are deposited in the mail here in Canada. Therefore we enjoy revenue from them in our Canadian postal services.
The second thing is that it would be an extremely costly business to perform further studies to separate these costs. But I want to suggest to the hon. member for Outremont that if we arrive at a general figure for the cost of these periodicals we can also come down to a unit cost. Then, from other sources which will be easily available to him, we would know the number of these United States publications generally circulating in Canada so we could come to a very close estimate of the expense.


Romuald Bourque: I think it is of the utmost importance that we get that information. Our Canadian periodicals, magazines and newspapers are being strangled at the present time by the United States periodicals. I think the time has come when we should know definitely what the cost is to bring these magazines in and to charge accordingly so that our magazines in Canada will have a fair chance of existing.
Another question that I should like to ask the minister is this. The hon. member for St. Denis has already referred to this matter. As will be recalled when the minister was on this side of the house, he was extremely critical of the one a day mail delivery. Many times-possibly a hundred times and more -one can read in Hansard that he asks the question as to when the twice a day mail delivery would be re-established. Last year I asked the minister for figures and he told me that if the twice a day mail delivery were re-established for five days a week the cost would run between $3,750,000 and $4,340,000 and that if you had a twice a day five days a week delivery with one delivery on Saturday the cost would run from $4,700,000 to possibly $5,925,000 a year. Just

to come down to a figure, I shall make a very high estimate. Suppose the cost to be $10 million a year. That would represent approximately 59 cents based on a population of 17 million people. I was just wondering if the minister had in mind re-establishing this twice a day delivery. The present system is causing a great hardship among the businessmen and merchants and a certain amount of hardship in the home. I should like to remind him that the 59 cents per person would not be the cost; that would be more than the cost because if you employ say 11,000 people who are not working at the present time but are drawing unemployment insurance these people would be paying in instead of taking out. I am therefore reasonably assured that we could cut the figure down to about 29 or 30 cents a year per person. I was just wondering if the minister had in mind re-establishing in the near future the twice a day delivery.


William McLean Hamilton: No,
Mr. Chairman. In fairness, I should point out that most businesses in Canada enjoy two a day mail delivery and that the one a day delivery is primarily restricted to the residential areas.


John Smith: I should just like to ask the Postmaster General whether he would care to comment on my remarks about a summer uniform for letter carriers. If he would like to take that matter under consideration and reply at a later date, that would be all right.


William McLean Hamilton: No,
Mr. Chairman. As a matter of fact, I should reply to that question. I am sorry I did not do so. We have a summer uniform, a lighter type of uniform for letter carriers. There has been some delay in delivery. It was drawn to my attention definitely when I was out in the field and called on these letter carriers. I came back and deliveries are being very definitely speeded up. I think you will find now that most of our people across the country have obtained their summer uniforms.
For the benefit of the other hon. member may I say that "Ind". in the rural directories means independent or no occupation listed.


Frank Howard: I have a brief comment on that matter, if I may be allowed to make it. I am glad the minister has cleared up this point. I have noticed that abbreviation "Ind". alongside the names of people who I know are Indians. I am pleased to hear that it is not a designation of the race to which the person belongs. In order to make the situation even clearer perhaps the minister could
Supply-Post Office
put that in the index section with the word "independent" and "Ind." alongside it.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: I should like to inquire about the procedure followed in cases of appointments in dealing with semi-staff offices which are semi-urban and semi-rural. It is clear that the nominees of the postmaster in the semi-staff offices come under the civil service commission. I am not dealing with that matter. I am dealing with the appointment of assistants. Under the previous administration appointments were made by the Postmaster General. But according to my information these appointments were made after the positions were advertised and after the applications were screened by treasury officers. May I ask the minister whether this procedure followed by the previous administration is still followed.


William McLean Hamilton: Yes, Mr. Chairman, exactly the same procedure is being followed at the present time.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Will the minister now be kind enough to explain why this procedure was not followed last October at the post office staff at H.M.C.S. Cornwallis at Nova Scotia where two assistants were appointed. No competition was held for these posts. No advertising at all was done. Can the minister give me at least one good reason why the usual procedure has not been followed?


William McLean Hamilton: 1
could not be certain in this particular case. I would be glad to go into the matter. It is quite possible that this is a navy establishment as the hon. member has already pointed out. Very often, where you have a national defence establishment special conditions arise. But I will be glad to find out and let the hon. member know.


Augustin Brassard: Although I was in my place when the minister spoke on the first item, I did not hear what he said about the three points which I raised. I wonder if he would be good enough to repeat what he had to say about them.


William McLean Hamilton: Briefly, I said 1 would look into the matter and see what we could do. The hon. member referred to the difference in the burden on letter carriers between Jonquiere and Alma. Alma is a comparatively new installation and in order to get it in, very often-in fact, in most cases-the burden is light. We have to have a given number of letter carriers and when we put service in we do not have, as a rule, any great number of residents. That burden will grow. Moreover, our letter carriers are not asked to cover a certain number of homes but to work eight hours a day. If

Supply-Privy Council
ihey work longer than that period, an adjustment is made. I may say that this applies to the hon. member's point on the circulars as well. If the load of circulars is so heavy that a postman must work overtime to deliver them, then overtime is paid or time off is given and an adjustment is subsequently reached.
We shall certainly look into his question to see whether we can have a new sub-post office in Jonquiere.


Augustin Brassard: Do these people have any lunch break, or any coffee break?


William McLean Hamilton: They have no coffee break, but they certainly have a lunch period.


Augustin Brassard: I might point out that in practically all modern business establishments it is the practice to provide a five-minute coffee break in the morning and, in some instances, in the afternoon as well.


William Moore Benidickson: I am sure the minister has observed, as I have, that post offices in the United States can, by and large, be quickly identified because they fly the national flag. I know that we have many small post [DOT]offices which have been rented for use by the department but none the less I think there is a great deal to be said for the flying of the national flag whenever possible and I wonder if the minister has given any consideration to this being done even in the case of some of the smaller premises which are not necessarily premises belonging to the Department of Public Works.


William McLean Hamilton: We
will be glad to do what we can to encourage our postmasters to do that. I think it is a commendable idea, but I must say that some of the post offices I have visited on occasion which combine a store business with their post office function would probably find it inconvenient to fly a flag outside the premises.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Would the minister be good enough to tell me who is the postmaster at Ste. Sabine in the province of Quebec?


William McLean Hamilton: We
have 12,000 postmasters and I do not have all their names here. But I will look this up for the hon. member and let him know.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Perhaps, with regard to the basis of this question I should ask whether the minister is following very closely the procedure adopted by the previous administration when he has as a candidate for one of these positions a veteran who has served overseas. Has he always given preference to veterans as had been done over the years?


William McLean Hamilton: One
of the most important considerations we bear in mind in the appointment of our postmasters from top to bottom is veterans' preference, and a veteran, if he applies for such a position, and if he is otherwise suitable, goes to the head of the list and gets the appointment. Periodically we have such situations as that in which we must turn down a veteran because a bilingual postmaster is required and the veteran is not bilingual, but I believe in the last report I had, out of 700 postmasterships filled, 100 veterans applied and in those 100 cases we were able to appoint veterans in 92.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: That concludes the estimates of the Post Office Department.
PRIVY COUNCIL National Capital Commission-
305. Administration, and operation and maintenance of parks, parkways and grounds adjoining government buildings at Ottawa and Hull, $1,795,795.


Mr. Caron:: I have only one question to put to the Prime Minister, and it does not apply to the present year because it is too late. But next year can he see that a few million dollars more are voted to the national capital commission so that we may start building a new bridge across the Ottawa river?


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to hold up my own estimates, but might we revert for a brief period to item 303?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
303. Preparatory work, not within the fields of particular departments, on emergency defence measures, $175,000.


John George Diefenbaker: Perhaps I may be allowed to deal with this matter at this point. I appreciate very much the attitude taken by the committee. This is, however, a matter to which some reference must be made at this time, namely the emergency organization. As I stated on the last occasion on which the estimates were before this committee and, later on, on two occasions, it is necessary now to prepare in advance the measures which would have to be taken if a major war were to commence suddenly in all the fury of a nuclear onslaught. I have already set out something with regard to the emergency organization which has been established, and given details in connection therewith. However, in the last few months further planning and organization has taken

place to preserve some degree of governmental and economic organization and continuity throughout the initial period of a nuclear war. The purpose we have had in mind has been to decentralize as far as possible.
I do not propose to review what I said on March 23 in that connection as to the course to be taken to provide for the continuance of government and governmental activities in the event of war. The whole problem was discussed in detail on April 24 by several of my colleagues with ministers representing the provinces.
On May 28 an order in council was passed under the Public Service Re-arrangement and Transfer of Duties Act, redistributing civil defence functions, some to national defence, some to national health and welfare, some to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and some to the emergency measures organization of the privy council office. These changes will go into effect on September 1 and the various groups concerned are now making ready to undertake their several responsibilities in this field. The main purpose of the changes in distribution of civil defence duties has been to closely integrate them with the general government organization for war purposes.
My purpose in rising is to announce a decision which the cabinet has made within the last three days relating to wartime organization. As hon. gentlemen opposite who were members of the former government realize, general plans in this connection were considered by the former government and those plans have been considered and advanced in the last two years. Direction has been given to the Department of Defence Production to plan now in peacetime a war supplies agency to be established immediately on the outbreak of war. This agency would have full responsibility and authority for all aspects of control over the production, distribution and pricing of both civil and military supplies other than production on farms and the catching and landing of fish, during the early part of a nuclear war, at least.
Study of the probable economic situation arising from conditions of nuclear attack indicates that the problem of providing and distributing essential commodities for both military and civilian purposes would be critical and complicated. Decisions would have to be taken promptly and any doubt as to where authority lay could result in serious delay and confusion. It would be necessary to have not only an organization with clear, unified control over supplies of all types, but one that could be decentralized not only to regional, but if necessary to local areas.
Supply-Privy Council
Those who recall the organization in the last war might visualize the agency as combining most of the responsibilities of the department of munitions and supply and of the wartime prices and trade board. The problems of allocation and distribution in the beginnings of a nuclear war would be vital. As time goes on, should the war continue, we would expect to see circumstances change considerably and it might then be desirable to vary the type of organization now proposed.
It has been decided that the necessary preparations for establishing this agency should be put in the hands of a single unit with assistance from others as required. A review of the functions and responsibilities of the several departments in legislation and in practice led to the conclusion that the Department of Defence Production would be the most suitable one to undertake this task, but requiring the assistance of the Department of Trade and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture.
It will be noted that the establishment of this new agency will change somewhat the distribution between departments of wartime duties and the preparations for them which I outlined to the house last year. The war supplies agency will require a considerable regional and local organization ready to swing into action on short notice. We would expect it to utilize the field staff of government departments that are qualified to assist it in emergency such, for example, as the numerous officers of the Department of Agriculture in meeting the demand of food supplies.
The agency will require the help of many people throughout the country if it is to be ready for a wartime emergency. In due course we shall therefore have to call for the voluntary service of many competent executives, both from private and public life, to prepare themselves to assume responsibilities on short notice should war occur. We shall also have to obtain for the use of this organization the fullest information on local supplies, facilities and requirements.
Another area which will demand detailed attention in the near future is that of preparations to make the most effective use of motor transport under conditions of nuclear war. The officials are being asked to initiate discussions of this subject both with provincial authorities and with representatives of those engaged in the motor transport industry. In the uncertain and inevitably confused conditions to be expected as a result of nuclear attack it is considered that the flexibility and widespread distribution of motor

Supply-Privy Council transport facilities would be of major importance in helping Canadians to survive and reorganize the economy.
I am able to inform the committee-and I think it is important that the committee should know this-that we now have ready facilities from which a central core of the dominion government can carry on outside of Ottawa under conditions of nuclear war, even if there is serious radioactive fallout in this area. Emergency communications facilities have been or are being established to be used if the regular channels of communications are interrupted. We propose to amplify and improve these emergency communications facilities, for such communications will be of vital importance in maintaining the country as a going concern.
We are now in the course of planning the arrangements for emergency regional centres from which the various federal organizations will be able to operate in each province under war conditions, and tie in with both the provincial and military authorities in the area. The local arrangements will have to be reviewed in considerable detail with each of the provinces as soon as that is possible, relating them to the needs and plans of the various agencies concerned as these are developed.
The main expenditures involved in these arrangements are not covered in this Privy Council office vote but under the appropriations of the other departments co-operating in these general matters.


William Moore Benidickson: To what vote is the Prime Minister referring?


John George Diefenbaker: Vote No. 303, Mr. Chairman.
These are closely related to the regular duties of those departments and it seems best to leave them there for reasons of security. I point that circumstance out and underline it. In the various departments, naturally, there will not be full detail as to the measures taken but only the general outline being given by myself on this question.
The staff and expenses of the small central unit in the Privy Council office which this vote is intended to cover will have to be increased to carry the larger load involved by the transfer of civil defence duties. For this year, these increased costs will be borne by transfers of funds from the civil defence vote in accordance with the practice when duties are transferred under the Public Service Re-arrangement and Transfer of Duties Act. The increase in staff shown in the figures in the blue book on page 403 covers the five regional officers that have been appointed. Offices are now being opened in Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg and


Vancouver. As soon as possible five more will be opened so that we will have one in each province. This has been made necessary by the burden of work that will arise out of the new civil defence duties.
In placing this plan before the committee in some detail I want to emphasize that the taking of this course of action is not in any way to be construed as evidence of any increase in international tension or added fears in recent months, but simply as a course of action in which care and caution must be exercised by those with responsibilities to the end that should nuclear war take place the necessary preparations would have been made to assure the continuance of the government and to maintain Canada in a position of strength and stability. I want to make that abundantly clear because some might interpret what I said as indicative of a greater fear as to the immediate future internationally and I want to underline that. That is not the reason for this very extensive plan to assure the maintenance of government and security should nuclear war take place.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, it is, of course, wise and well that government should take precautionary plans of this kind. I think at the same time the Prime Minister was well advised to emphasize that the announcement of the advancement of those plans now does not mean in any way, shape or form that the contingency which they are designed to meet is any closer than it was a year ago. Indeed, perhaps we may hope-there does not always seem to be very much ground for hope, but we must hope-that that contingency will recede. Nevertheless, any government has an obligation of this kind to plan and it is satisfactory to know that the government is discharging that obligation.
The Prime Minister in his announcement, however, dealt with a very important subject, the subject of emergency powers, the basis for such emergency powers and the circumstances under which those emergency powers might come into effect. I am going to ask the Prime Minister whether he would let this particular item stand until tomorrow so that we can have an opportunity to study the statement which he made tonight? I can assure him we do not do this with any desire to hold up the estimates but it is such an important statement that perhaps he would give us the opportunity to study it. Perhaps he might even let us have a copy of it tonight and we would have some time even tonight to look at it so that we can with a minimum of delay deal with it tomorrow. I am going to ask, therefore, whether the Prime Minister would agree to let this particular item stand until tomorrow?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to endorse the
remarks of the Leader of the Official Opposition with respect to the Prime Minister's announcement of those precautionary measures. I was going to ask exactly the same thing as the Leader of the Official Opposition asked because it was a long statement and it was very difficult for us to follow. I hope the Prime Minister will agree to the request of the Leader of the Official Opposition.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would like to say a word before the Prime Minister speaks. I think the suggestion of the Leader of the Opposition is a wise one. I understand the next department is the Department of the Secretary of State; then we take up the estimates of the Minister of National Health and Welfare under whose jurisdiction comes the main civil defence vote under the distribution of powers referred to by the Prime Minister tonight and announced some time ago to be made effective on September 1.
Now, if this matter is going to stand, as I think it should, until tomorrow there ought to be some arrangement made whereby it can be discussed in relation to the civil defence item, because this is an overlapping subject. The questions that one would ask of the Prime Minister on item 303 would be of concern to the Minister of National Health and Welfare, the Minister of Defence Production and the Minister of National Defence. When the Prime Minister makes arrangements with regard to tomorrow this suggestion ought to be borne in mind.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I, too, of course, am quite in accord with the suggestions that have been made. We all appreciate the willingness of the Prime Minister to allow this matter to stand, but we all know the capability of the Prime Minister in the field of law. I would hope that tomorrow he would explain to the committee the difference between the powers that were, shall we say, lost as a result of the failure to reinstate the emergency powers legislation a few days ago in contrast with what is asked for here. I am sure the Prime Minister would be able to give us concrete examples tomorrow of the rights of the executive under this item 303 in contrast with the lapsing of the emergency powers legislation which was so advertised a few days ago.


John George Diefenbaker: I think I can answer that at once, even though I am going entirely to accede to the request as particularly amplified by the member for Essex East. In the
Supply-Privy Council event that war should come, then immediately reliance would be placed on the terms of the War Measures Act and the extraordinary powers therein provided would immediately become applicable.
The hon. member refers to the fact that in so far as the Defence Production Act is concerned, certain extraordinary powers will be allowed to lapse as of July 31. That is so, but there is no contradiction in the action taken here and the allowing of those powers to lapse under the Defence Production Act.
What I have placed before the committee is simply a plan for the assurance of the continuance of government and government itself, the provision of the security measures should war break out. If there was an emergency threat of war, or the actual outbreak of hostilities then, of course, the hon. gentleman knows the War Measures Act provides for those extraordinary powers that cover every facet of Canadian life.
Now, with respect to the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition and amplified and given greater particularity by the member for Essex East, may I say this. In so far as this item is concerned, it might be allowed to stand as part of the subject to be discussed when the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare come before the committee and it could be discussed at the same time as the general problem of civil defence, if that is satisfactory to hon. gentlemen who made the suggestions as well as to the hon. member for Kootenay West.


John George Diefenbaker: Item 303 stands.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister whether copies of his statement were available. If they were, it would be very convenient because Hansard will not be out until tomorrow.


John George Diefenbaker: I have to admit that they are not. I have a habit of having a statement prepared and then making interlineations which make the original statement bear little resemblance to that which is placed before the house. I will see that one copy, the copy in question, after use by Hansard, is made available to the Leader of the Opposition and in turn to the hon. member for Kootenay West for the C.C.F. group.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Is it agreed that item 303 stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Item stands.


Lionel Chevrier: What about item 563?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: That was carried.
6276	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State



DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE

[Stage Direction]
372. Departmental administration, $303,040.
Mr. Couriemanche:: Mr. Chairman, since the estimates of the Department of the Secretary of State were presented to the standing committee on estimates and there discussed at length I do not propose, in introducing them to the committee, to embark on a lengthy statement on the functions and operations of the department. The proceedings and the report of the committee are in the hands of hon. members at this time. With respect to the committee's report, I may say that the recommendations advanced therein are being given serious and careful consideration by me and by my undersecretary.
Hon. members are aware that the Secretary of State, as well as being responsible for the administration of the Department of the Secretary of State, including in his capacity of custodian of enemy property the office of the custodian of enemy property, for which there is no parliamentary appropriation, is also responsible for the administration of the department of public printing and stationery. He also acts as spokesman in this house for the civil service commission and the chief electoral officer. I might mention in concluding that the estimates of the civil service commission were also considered by the standing committee.
(Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, is the Secretary of State contemplating changes in the organization of his department? I recall that during a sitting of the estimates committee, we have discussed the amalgamation of certain divisions. Does the Secretary of State intend to make those changes this year or at the next session?


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, the committee has opposed those changes, and accordingly, they will not be made.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
379. Special expenditure in connection with a commission under the Inquiries Act to inquire into the workings of the Patent Act, the Copyright Act, the Industrial Designs Act, and other related legislation, $11,900.
William Arnold Peters: What is the progress with
respect to submitting the report of this commission?


Henri Courtemanche: I am told that it will be ready by the end of August, in the fall.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Office of the Chief Electoral Officer-
47. Salaries and the expenses of office, $79,420.
(Translation):
Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, does the Secretary of State intend to propose certain amend-
[The Chairman.]

ments to the Canada Elections Act, following the recommendations made by the committee which studied the matter?


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, I might say to the hon. member for Hull that next session, certain changes will be made to the Canada Elections Act, following the recommendations made by the committee.


Alexis Pierre Caron: According to the recommendations of the committee?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
(Text):
Civil Service Commission-
67. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $3,661,089.
Mr. Speakman:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make a brief comment on this item regarding the civil service and the employment of any person by any branch or any department of the government service anywhere in Canada. We are constantly reminded of unemployment in this country. The civil service of Canada is the largest employer of labour in Canada. The unemployed in Canada are in the main men under the age of 50 years with the responsibilities of men of that age group.
Civil service regulations demand that preference for employment be given to Canada's veterans. Surely this preference should also be maintained in other branches of the government not under regulations governing the civil service and particularly in the service of the House of Commons itself.
In addition, civil service regulations set the statutory age of retirement at 65. With some unemployment in Canada, with many men well below the age of 65 unemployed, surely the public service of Canada should be the first to set an example to employers and should retire employees over the age of 65 to make way for entry into the service of Canada of these younger men now unemployed. The argument may be used that only certain men and women are retained beyond this age because of knowledge and experience but, this argument is not valid when it is used to break a statutory provision affecting the public service of Canada. No man or woman is irreplaceable and I strongly urge on the government that it should fulfil the self-imposed obligation of retirement of its employees at 65 and so ease the present burden of unemployment.


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, before asking the house to consider the estimates of the civil service commission I should like to present the new chairman of the civil service commission, Mr. Samuel Hughes, Q.C., formerly a judge of the Supreme Court of Ontario. He has assumed a very important

responsibility. An effective, independent civil service commission is, in many respects, the key to an efficient public service. The civil service commission may become even more important in the near future. As you know, the government expects to introduce legislation at the next session which may have a significant bearing on the commission in particular and the public service in general.
The government was pleased, therefore, to be able to appoint to the post of chairman a man with so many qualifications and proven capacity in so many fields. Mr. Hughes has a bachelor of arts degree from the university of Toronto and a master of arts degree from Oxford university, and is a member of the Ontario bar. He has had wide experience as a teacher, lawyer, judge, administrator and military officer. His legal training will be a special asset when the Civil Service Act goes before parliament for review. Fortunately, he is also a young man who should be able to cope for many years to come with his numerous responsibilities. I am sure the house will join with me in wishing him well.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, in the absence of the Leader of the Opposition I think I should perhaps say a word in connection with what the Secretary of State has just said. I would not for a moment want what I am about to say to be considered as disrespectful in the slightest degree. I have been a member of the house now for a great many years and this is the first time that I have heard a statement such as that just made by the Secretary of State. Civil servants, no matter how high an office they hold and how respectful they are, are anonymous and have been so in the House of Commons.
Having said that, I repeat that I would not want the gentleman to whom the minister has referred in such eulogistic terms to believe that we on this side of the house do not hesitate to hope that he will fulfil the office to which he has been appointed in the manner in which such offices are generally fulfilled in the civil service of Canada. But I did think, I should bring to the attention of the house the rather unusual procedure of the minister which I hope, in the future, will not be followed as a precedent. (Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, in spite of the restrictions just now suggested by the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier), may I also be allowed to congratulate the new chairman. I hope he will continue the good work of his predecessors. I also want to congratulate the two other members of the commission, Miss Addison and Mr. Pelletier for the considerable amount of work they have taken upon themselves since the de-
Supply-Secretary of State parture of the former chairman who went back to his diplomatic career. They appeared before the committee and proved themselves equal to the situation. They certainly deserve to be warmly commended.
The civil service of Canada is an organization which, since its very beginning, certainly has been very deserving. It has rendered great services, but there are some things which might be improved; indeed, the commission has often asked for those improvements.
I have here the annual report of the civil service commission for the year 1958. This is what it says on page 6:
Personnel selection
It has been difficult to supply government hospitals with all the required staff. There is, in particular, a lack of nurses, physiotherapists, rehabilitation therapists and laboratory technicians. There is also a lack of ship inspectors for the Department of Transport. After having satisfied itself that Canadian resources in that field were about exhausted, the commission made some offers of employment in the United Kingdom, which have led to a number of appointments.
And further on, on the same page we see the following:
At higher levels than that of admission, it has been difficult to find good candidates among science graduates who left university a few years ago. Quite naturally, a good number of the best university graduates have interesting positions in other fields, so that a real problem obtained when the commission had to fill the needs of the various departments.
And, on page 7, we find the following paragraph:
For instance, it has been impossible for some time to find enough graduates specialized in mathematics, physics or physical engineering and who could become meteorologists, nor a sufficient number of commerce graduates who might become income tax assessors. The problem is due to the fact that the number of graduates in those fields is comparatively small, whereas demand, by government services as well as private industry, remains high.
Well, Mr. Chairman, there is a reason for such conditions and it is an absolutely simple one. They are due to the fact that salaries offered in the civil service for such positions are entirely inadequate.
Accountants were required and, on many occasions, I sent out those forms we get from the civil service commission to all the accountants I know. Not one of them wanted any of those positions, because the salaries they get in private industry are much higher than those offered by the civil service com-sission. I am not blaming the civil service commission, since it cannot fix the salaries; that has to be done by the government, and the civil service commission has but to comply with government orders in that respect.

Supply-Secretary of State
This morning I received posters asking for information officers. Let us have a look at the qualifications required:
High school degree, additional credits for further academic training.
Several years' experience in publicity work.
Good knowledge of publicity media and methods.
Ability to draft and prepare, for publication, publicity texts, etc.
And for that, a salary of $5,700 to $6,180, is being offered, when it is known that in private industry, those people earn $7,000 to start with, and can obtain higher salaries later. How can you expect them to leave a $7,000, $8,000 or $9,000 job to accept one at $5,700?
I have here a poster asking for technical officers, at a salary ranging from $3,420 to $4,020; the required qualifications are as follows:
Degree from a recognized university or good general education, acquired after good and adequate training or experience, and a good many years of experience in the field of public relations.
Demonstrated ability to perform the duties involved in the field of external relations.
Personal suitability; satisfactory physical condition, etc.
For all this, we offer to a university graduate a salary ranging from $3,420 to $4,020. Is it reasonable to think that a university graduate who could get a much higher salary in private industry would accept to sacrifice his life to work for the public service?
And further on, we ask for lawyers. The salary that is offered is $4,740. If a lawyer is not worth more than that, he does not deserve to be a member of the Bar.
It is for those reasons that the government cannot get lawyers, because they all earn more than that, especially during these years when money has lost its value and when people have a good deal of it to spend.
Then, we ask for economics or commerce graduates from a Canadian university. How much do we offer them? Imagine! $4,560 a year! It is utterly ridiculous. How can we expect people who have made serious studies, who have followed a classical course for eight years, or a university course of three, four or five years, to accept to work for such low salaries.
Well, I cannot understand it. One of these days, the government will have to decide to revise the salaries which continue to dwindle, because of the cost of living continuing to rise. As I said earlier, those salaries are ridiculously low for professionals who have made serious studies. Well, as long as those


salaries are not increased, it will be difficult for the commission to find civil servants.
In that field, as I was saying, the civil service commission has no jurisdiction, because the money is voted by the government or rather by parliament at the government's request. Now, the Civil Service Commission is asking for it. The government has received the civil service commission's report dealing with salary increases. Now we ask the minister what he proposes to do, and his reply is that "we are not ready". After two years of consideration the minister tells us: "We are not ready to act, and we must still discuss the matter."
Mr. Chairman, as long as discussions go on and no action is taken, I am sure the civil service commission despite all its efforts, and despite the high calibre of its commissioners and of the new chairman, will be unable to recruit the required staff.
While providing an appropriate salary for professional people, one must not be unmindful especially of the small civil servant, the one who earns hardly $2,000 or $3,000 a year, who, like the others, has a family to feed and children to educate. In my opinion, the civil servant is in a worse predicament, because the government is taking no action in the matter.
Mr. Chairman, I ask the Secretary of State to be kind enough to use his authority, if he has any and I hope he has-they are not all members for Three Rivers in the cabinet-I hope, as I said, that he will use his authority to urge the other cabinet ministers to take action in favour of the lower paid employees who are in need.
I know people who have a hard time making both ends meet and who are obliged to reduce their standard of living substantially in the way of clothing and food. These civil servants are obliged to come to Ottawa to work. They are not satisfied with the clothes they wear, but they cannot afford to buy any other because their wages are insufficient, due to the increase in the cost of clothing and food.
We have read in the French newspapers as well as in the English ones, the dissatisfaction expressed by the federal civil servants. In fact, here is what Le Droit of July 16, had to say about it:
Civil servants dissatisfied with all those delays.
The National Joint Council of Canada has expressed to the Hon. Donald Fleming its dissatisfaction regarding the delays of the government to accept the civil service commission's recommendations about the salaries of the civil servants.

The council, 120,000 member strong, would like to know the reasons for these delays and has asked Mr. Fleming for a meeting. The letter answered that he could not set a time for a meeting because, due to the late stage of the session, he was overworked.
It follows then that the civil servants are running the risk of seeing the matter postponed until the next session.
Mr. Fleming said in the house that the government and the civil service commission had to study this matter further before the recommendations of the commission could be taken as final.
Mr. Chairman, we understand the dissatisfaction of the civil servants. But what we, on this side, do not understand is that after a two year study of this report of the civil service commission, which had also produced interim reports, it is, I repeat, that after studying a complete report for two years, this government cannot see its way clear to examining it in order to give justice to those who need it.
I know very well that the Secretary of State is going to say that his job is only to submit the estimates of the civil service commission to parliament and that he has nothing to do with an independent Commission. I am not asking him to interfere in the administration of the civil service commission or to tell the commissioners: "You will do this or that". I am just asking him to use his authority-and I hope he has some-to urge the Minister of Finance, the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) and all his colleagues of the government so that they may decide at last to do something in order that we should have something positive in that field.
Mr. Chairman, I find also that mention was made of an independent outside commission which would be required to inquire into the civil service commission. I am definitely against such a suggestion. I know that we have here the agencies capable of doing that job and I submit that we do not have to go out to find so-called efficiency experts who have failed pitifully wherever they went. They would probably prove a failure in the civil service commission as elsewhere. We have the experts we need. The civil service commission has conducted a serious study of the whole situation. The only thing it needs to act and to carry out its plans is additional staff. With its present staff, the civil service commission is unable, in some departments, to carry out direct supervision of departmental promotion competitions. That is why I ask the Secretary of State to
Supply-Secretary of State kindly give in to the civil service commission, so that the commission may better do its job for the government.
(Text):


Mr. Mcllraith:: The civil service of Canada, as I think all hon. members will agree, has enjoyed an extremely high reputation over the past number of years. A considerable part of the credit for that high reputation must, I think, properly go to the civil service commission for their competence and impartiality in selecting persons to fill the vacant positions. I can only express the wish that that credit can continue to go to the comission over the years that lie ahead of us. I perhaps do not need to elaborate on that subject unduly here tonight. However, it is of the utmost importance in the administration of the country's business that the commission or the hiring agent of government preserve its competent method of hiring and, above all, its impartiality in hiring.
Therefore, as the new chairman of the commission takes over his duties, I want to express the hope that this record of impartiality is continued in the future. There are some persons who are greatly concerned on this subject and there are bits and pieces of evidence that support their concern. However, I do not need to elaborate on that matter either, other than to warn the government that if the minister, in the legislation which he forecasts for the next session of parliament, in the changes in the civil service act and in the other legislation concerning the public service, does anything that would in any way weaken the position that has been built up over the years of administering promotions and the selection of civil servants on an impartial basis, he will have done a great disservice to his own government and to the country at large. I want to leave that note of warning to him on record so that, as he considers the legislation proposed for introduction at the next session of parliament, he will have it in mind.
There is one particular matter that I want to raise, and I think I can deal with it briefly. It is this, and I would ask the minister to make a note of it. In connection with a position of caretaker, grade 5, at Brantford, Ontario, competition number 59-J-685, the competition was held in the ordinary way by the commission. The results of the competition were published in the Canada Gazette of July 11, 1959 at page 2460. The winner of the competition was notified in the ordinary way of his appointment to the position and he took over his

Supply-Secretary of State *duties in the position. Incidentally, I may say that the position carries with it certain housing accommodation. He purchased certain equipment for the housing quarters, moved in and so on. Then after occupying the position for a short time he was moved out of it and the man who came third in the competition was placed in the position.
Those are the facts as I have them. I want to add only one other detail. The man who came first in the position-and I hope the hon. member for Wetaskiwin will bear this in mind because I want to support part of his remarks on this point-is a man entitled to the veterans overseas preference. The man who came third did not have any overseas preference. In the filling of that position something happened that is not in accordance with the civil service procedure as laid down by the civil service commission. There appears to be some irregularity that should be looked into immediately and corrected. In addition to that irregularity of the man who came first in the competition not getting the position or being moved out of it after he had moved from his former position at considerable expense to himself, he incurred a financial loss, because of the nature of the position, in having to buy certain equipment. I do not expect the Secretary of State to have the details of these positions here in order to discuss them on these estimates but I would ask him to undertake to have that matter examined thoroughly, to see that justice is done and to see that the regulations of the commission are adhered to and that correct procedure is followed in all respects in that matter.


Frank Howard: I rise on this item to say again, as I said last session, that I think the term civil servant is a rather degrading one to apply to people who are employed by the government of Canada. I, personally, would like to see some other title applied to them, rather than the one which is used now. However, I understand that the minister does not agree with that approach or, at least, he did not last session. He thought that the term "civil servant" degrading as it is was good enough for the people who are working in the public employ.
I listened with interest to the impassioned remarks of the hon. member for Hull with respect to salary adjustments and the salary scale of people in the employ of the government of Canada. I think this government and the government which preceded it have been tackling this question from the wrong end. I think a much more sensible arrangement would be to treat the employees of the government in a manner different from that in which they are treated at present. In other words,


they should not be treated as people in a class not quite the same as other employees in the country. They should not, in fact, be treated as second class citizens when it comes to wages, hours and working conditions. Instead, they should be placed on precisely the same basis as other workers and treated in the same way as we expect other employers in Canada to treat their staffs, though, of course, I do not suggest that exactly the same machinery need be used for reaching conclusions on wages, conditions, and hours of work. I do suggest, however, that these employees should be treated in the same way as employees of the C.N.R., Trans-Canada Air Lines, or any other of the crown corporations which report to parliament through various ministers.
I believe that if a group of employees decides to get together and form a bargaining unit, as has been done in a number of cases or, probably in all cases, I think that organization should have the right to ask its employer-the federal government-to sit down and bargain with it in good faith. This cap in hand attitude, this pleading with the government for favourable consideration of improvements in wages, hours and working conditions should become a thing of the past. Now it is only too easy for the Minister of Finance or some other minister to put them off for reasons which, in my opinion, are not adequate. I believe that the federal government should be prepared to sit down and bargain over working conditions and so on just as other employers are bound to do. As it is, government employees have to wait expectantly hoping for the benevolence of the government to reach such proportions that an increase is granted. I do not think that should be our attitude in so far as the wage and salary structure of civil servants is concerned.
We would be far better off if they had bargaining rights and established arrangements under which they, like other employees in Canada who are represented by a union or an agency could sit down and discuss the question of wage increases, wage adjustments, hours of work and all the other things over which unions bargain. I do not think that these employees in the public service want the right to strike as do other employees working for other employers. I do not think they would be agreeable to go that far. But we should, I think, provide some machinery which would make it possible to reach a conclusive agreement in so far as their wages, hours and working conditions are concerned.
If such an agreement cannot be reached directly with the federal government, they should have the right to proceed to an outside

tribunal or to an arbitration board to settle these problems in precisely the same way as do the firefighters who work for municipalities. These firefighters do not have the right to strike. In fact many years ago they wrote into their constitution that they should not, because they felt that their work was of such importance to the community that they did not believe they should even think in terms of withholding their services. But this example shows that there is a group of employees, working for municipalities in many cases, which has the right to proceed to arbitration, if necessary, to settle any differences as to wages and conditions which may arise with their employers and this, I suggest, is the attitude which the federal government should take as far as its employees are concerned.
May I say this to the committee. Let the government cease participating any further in this patronizing attitude towards its employees in the public service. Let it place them on the same level as the employees of other organizations, whether crown companies or public companies, and let them be given the right which is justly theirs to make a collective determination as far as negotiations are concerned instead of treating them as being second class citizens, because they are not.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like for one moment to re-echo the views expressed here by the hon. member for Ottawa West. I think it is vital that the minister should realize the significance of impartiality in the civil service commission. No one I am sure is more conversant with the situation than the minister himself and I am sure that no one would want a situation of impartiality to obtain more so than does the Prime Minister himself.
Over the years that I have been in the house there have been many chairmen of the civil service commission, beginning, first of all, when I arrived here in 1935, with Mr. C. H. Bland, who for many years occupied that position, and occupied it with distinction. He was a man who was not only devoted to the position which he held, but one who succeeded in instituting in the civil service commission many improvements and innovations.
He was there for many years and I think that representatives of both sides of this house would vouch for the fact that he fulfilled his duties with efficiency and distinction. I think that applies, also, to the man who succeeded him, though for a short period of time -Mr. Nelson. It certainly could be said of the last man who occupied the post prior to the appointment of Mr. Justice Hughes, and I speak, of course, of Ambassador Heeney. The
Supply-Secretary of State fact that he was appointed by the former government and retained by this government indicates, I believe, the confidence which both administrations had in the man who had held that high office. I have not the slightest doubt that the incumbent of the office at present will wish to follow in the footsteps of these three distinguished civil servants.
It seems to me that the attention of the minister and the committee should be directed again to the points which the hon. member for Ottawa West made. It is of extreme importance to the country, to the government and to the civil service commission that there should be in that great and important body impartiality so that there be selected for the service of the government the best candidates that are available.
(Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: Just one question, Mr. Chairman, to ask the minister whether the hon. member for Chambly-Rouville (Mr. Johnson), who is now sitting by his side, has been appointed his parliamentary secretary?


Henri Courtemanche: I am sure the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron) does not expect an affirmative answer.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Printing and Stationery-
311. Department administration, $656,595. (Translation):
Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, we shall now deal with the national printing bureau. If you will allow me, I should like, first of all, to read a few pages from the Senate and House of Commons Act, Revised Statues, 1952, chapter 249. Section 15 reads as follows:
No person, directly or indirectly, alone or with any other, by himself or by the interposition of any trustee or third party, holding or enjoying, undertaking or executing any contract or agreement, expressed or implied, with or for the government of Canada on behalf of the crown, or with or for any of the officers of the government of Canada, for which any public money of Canada is to be paid, is eligible as a member of the House of Commons, or shall sit or vote in the said House.
And the last eight lines of section 16, read as follows:
... or performs any service for the government of Canada, or for any of the officers of the government of Canada, for which any public money of Canada is paid or to be paid, whether such contract, agreement or sale is expressed or implied, and whether the transaction is single or continuous, the seat of such member shall thereby be vacated, and his election shall thenceforth be null and void.
And section 19 reads as follows:
(1) In every contract, agreement or commission to be made, entered into or accepted by any person with the government of Canada, or any of the departments or officers of the government of

Supply-Secretary of State Canada, there shall he inserted an express condition, that no member of the House of Commons shall be admitted to any share or part of such contract, agreement or commissions, or to any benefit to arise therefrom.
(2) In case any person, who has entered into or accepted, or who shall enter into or accept any such contract, agreement or commission, admits any member or members of the House of Commons, to any part or share thereof, or to receive any benefit thereby, every such person shall, for every such offence, forfeit and pay the sum of two thousand dollars, recoverable with costs in any court of competent jurisdiction by any person who sues for the same.
And section 20 says:
This Act does not extend to disqualify any person as a member of the House of Commons by reason of his being
(a) a shareholder in any incorporated company.
There is just a mention of a shareholder. I have quoted that section not to make any accusation, but to ask the minister to investigate a case which seems to me quite extraordinary. I find, in the answers given to questions I asked, that the Monitor Publishing Company of Montreal was awarded four contracts, one for $10,416, another for $255, a third one for $128 and the last one for $128, for a grand total of $10,922. And I was told,-which seems to be confirmed,-that a member of the board of directors of the Monitor Publishing Company of Montreal is the member for York-Humber (Miss Aitken). If that is clearly established, I am not judging anything nor making any direct accusation, but I want things to be cleared up.
This is what the law says:
This Act does not extend to disqualify any person as a member of the House of Commons by reason of his being
(a) a shareholder in any incorporated company.
Mention is not made anywhere of a director or a president or a member of the management of a company. It was then the intent of the legislator to exclude only the shareholder who generally has his say only once a year at the general meeting while the director, a lady director, a president of a vice president are continually looking after the business of the company and are directing its policy.
Thus the director, president or vice president of a company is so much closer to the administration and his position is a lot more advantageous than that of the shareholder. Therefore I urge the minister to consider making an inquiry in that with a view to finding if what happened in the case of the member for York-Humber places her definitely in the situation of a member who cannot sit in this house for having a contract with the government or for having


been involved in it directly or indirectly when that Montreal publishing company got contracts for $10,922 during the year. If the act is not sufficiently clear to necessitate definitely the re-election of the member, then I say that the time has come for the government to undertake a revision of that Senate and House of Commons act in order to clarify the situation. This might be the first occurrence of such a case; it might be that the member for York-Humber does not know about that section, she might be acting in good faith, but it is very dangerous for a member to be a director in a company dealing with the government.
Therefore I urge the hon. minister to make an extensive inquiry because this is a serious case. I am not laying any charge, but the situation ought to be clarified as much in the interest of the member for York-Humber as of all the other members in this house. It is important that people know what are the duties, obligations and privileges of members, arising out of their election to the House of Commons.
Now I find here, on page 19, that a certain Mont-Laurier firm, namely Le Flambeau, has received an amount of $2,019.75 under a contract. This firm, I am informed, was started on February 24, 1959, and according to the court records, Le Flambeau is registered under the ownership of a Mr. Paquette. It is even claimed-I have no proof, but I am merely reporting what is commonly said on the street-


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: The House of Commons is no place for jokes.


Alexis Pierre Caron: The minister can deny it if he wishes. I say that this is being mentioned on the street, and it is better to bring it out in the open right now rather than to let the rumour run wild. There is talk about a Mr. Lesage, a former secretary of the former Minister of Health in the Quebec government, who is the Secretary of State's father-inlaw, and gossips say the minister also has some interest in the business. Now I should like to know whether that is a fact. I am prepared to accept the minister's word, but I would hate to see people here get into habits that are apparently matter of course in a provincial government, where business deals are often made in favour of relatives.
For instance, there is a certain Mr. Pouliot, Minister of Fisheries, who gives aircraft-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr, Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege.


Alexis Pierre Caron: There is another one who gives telephone lines to his brother.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: The hon. member for Hull does not comply with the rules of this House. (Text):


Robert Jardine McCleave: The
hon. member for Hull has the floor.


Mr. Lambert:: With all due respect, I think the hon. member for Hull should tend to matters of the Secretary of State and not deal with sort of rumours and scuttlebutt and smear in other jurisdictions.


Mr. Nesbitt:: Political smearing.


Norman Platt Lambert: Unless he is prepared to stand up and prove it.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order that has been raised by the hon. member for Edmonton West, we had a similar matter discussed in the house before and the rules and regulations were laid down quite clearly. The hon. member is quite within his rights in proceeding to deal with this matter in the way in which he has. The minister can, if he wishes, rise and deny it and then it would be up to the hon. member to accept the minister's statement. It has been clearly established in this house, not only in other debates but in the precedents that were cited in the house during the discussion of another case, both by hon. members on this side of the house and by the Speaker himself, so that I think-


Mr.   Nesbill@: Give us the citations.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes; I can give the Schell case as one; another case was the Boothby case in the United Kingdom which I put on the record and three or four others which leave my mind at the moment; but the circumstances and the procedure were quite clearly laid down and I submit to you with deference that the hon. member is within the rules in proceeding as he has.


Norman Platt Lambert: On the point of order, I am not referring to the direct questions that the hon. member is asking of the minister; I am referring to the scuttlebutt and rumours he is making about other jurisdictions.


Robert Jardine McCleave: On
the point of order-


Alexis Pierre Caron: I am speaking on the point of order. The hon. member who just rose and raised a point of order is completely wrong. I did not make any accusations; I just stated the rumours which were going around. The
Supply-Secretary of State minister can rise and say it is not true and I will accept his word that it is wrong.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Legalized slander.


Norman Platt Lambert: What about the other things the hon. member said?


Alexis Pierre Caron: I asked the minister a fair question. He has the right to answer yes or no. It is up to the minister to do that and not for a backbencher over there to raise a point of order when he has no interest in the matter at all.


Mr. Bigg:: You are also a backbencher; what are you talking about?


Alexis Pierre Caron: I know the hon. member; I have learned a lot about him this session, especially in committees. He ought to be out of this house.
(Translation):


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, I would like to kill those rumours and say immediately to the hon. member for Hull that since 1945, Mr. Gilbert Paquette owns a newspaper called Le Flambeau, I do not believe there is a Mr. Lesage or any other person associated with him, except that an old printer who worked in another printing plant in Mont-Laurier has gone into business with him.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I fully accept the explanation of the minister, and to prove that I accept them quite well, I leave the matter at that.
Mr. Chairman, there is another rather delicate matter, with which I want to deal and for which I do not blame the minister directly. I know that the minister cannot supervise by himself 25,000, 30,000 or 35,000 contracts which are granted annually.
I know that the minister does not have, in the Printing Bureau division, the necessary staff which could help him as it should be. I know that the minister should have had for a long time a Queen's Printer who is, after all, his deputy minister. It is unfortunate for the minister that this appointment has not been made, since the situation I am referring to might not have occurred.
I asked a question regarding the binders, and I notice among the answers I was given and bearing the minister's signature, that in some cases there were three bidders. Wilson Jones Limited, E. G. Thomas & Son, Cope-land-Chatterson Ltd. Wilson Jones' bid was for $5,516, E. G. Thomas & Son's was for $5,900, and that of Copeland-Chatterson Ltd. was for $8,910. And in that particular
6284	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State case, it was the highest bidder, Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., with $8,910 who got the contract.
In the second case, there were five bidders: Wilson Jones Limited, Toronto, $5,590; E. G. Thomas & Son Ltd., $6,260; Brown Bros. Ltd., Toronto, $6,370, Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., from Brampton, $8,910, and Chas. Chapman Co. Ltd., from London, $8,090. The contract was again awarded to the highest bidder who was Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., from Brampton, for $8,910.
In the third case, which is different from the others, there were only two bidders: Wilson Jones Limited, $13,680, and Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., $17,820. In that case, the contract was awarded to the lowest bidder, which was Wilson Jones, for an amount of $13,680.
As far as the fourth case is concerned, there were two bidders; Wilson Jones Limited, $7,040, and Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., $7,840. In this case the contract was awarded to the hihest bidder, that is to Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., for an amount of $7,840.
And we have the fifth case where there is only one bidder, and where only one bid was made, that of Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., for an amount of $21,330.
I admit that following this information, there is an explanatory letter which says among other things-and if I am wrong in my explanation I wish to be corrected-that Copeland and Chatterson Ltd. is mode competent than other firms for the type of binders requested by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. However, I read this on page 3:
(Text):
A requisition dated May X, 1959 for 2,000 binders was received. Copeland-Chatterson was asked to quote for 2,000 English and 1,000 French. Prices of Copeland-Chatterson, $21,330 ($7.11 each).
On June 3, a submission was made to treasury board which requested that authority be given to enter into contract with Copeland-Chatterson. The remarks on the submission were as follows:
"Tenders were not invited from other firms in this case as our experience indicates that no other firm has been able to demonstrate that they can meet the exact specifications."
(Translation) :
As you see, Mr. Chairman, the explanation is given that Copeland-Chatterson Ltd. were the only firm qualified to do this work. However, in one of these tenders, the contract was awarded to the lowest bidder, namely Wilson Jones Limited. Therefore there is certainly something which is definitely not justifiable, and I am wondering how they went about to determine the qualifications of the others, or their lack of qualifications,


of whether they just relied on Copeland-Chatterson Ltd. to establish what they wanted.
I believe that the other firms should have been given the same opportunity of carrying out this project. I understand that the request had been made by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, and that tenders had been called by the printing and stationery division. Well, I submit that if we had given the other firms the same opportunity of going ahead and building binders, it would certainly have been possible to find the means to enable them to make something comparable to the work performed by Copeland-Chatterson Ltd.
I wonder if that question should not be submitted to the public accounts committee next year, so that we might hear the representatives of those other firms, that is Wilson Jones Limited, E. G. Thomas & Son Ltd., Brown Bros. Ltd. and Chas. Chapman Co. Ltd. They might explain their side of the story and we could ask them to produce the samples submitted by those companies, in order to see whether the difference was such to justify, when submissions were asked for in every case except one, awarding the contract to the highest tenderer.
I ask the Secretary of State to see to it that this situation be examined by the public accounts committee next year, so that we may get this thing cleared off and see if it was really impossible to do otherwise.
Mr. Chairman, I said it was easy to find objections, particularly where senior officials of a department are concerned. However, as I said a moment ago, I would not like to lay the blame directly on the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, (Mr. Comtois). However, we might perhaps lay the blame, to some extent, on some officials who are responsible for the distribution. As I say, it is easy to raise objections when it is a case of proving that a firm is better than another, especially when it is perhaps inferior to the first one, and that simply because it does not please a particular official of some department.
That is why, Mr. Chairman, I would ask that the matter be referred to the public accounts committee, next year, in order that the minister, as well as we, may be quite clear on that. He would also be in a better position than he is tonight to give us an answer, because he has with him just an explanatory letter, which was not written by himself, but

which he received from his under-secretary or some other official, without having had time to examine it carefully.
If the committee were asked to look into that matter, it would enable us to get information from the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys in order to ascertain for whom that work has been done. I appreciate that he is not in a position to give us an answer, because it is the officials of the printing bureau who, in letting the contract, have asked in this way.
I want to know if it would be possible to establish that the contract could have been given to the lowest bidder. In doing so, the government would have paid less, and at the same time the system of this division of the printing bureau would have been kept impeccable, as it has been done rather frequently in the past.
(Text):


Douglas Mason Fisher: I have one question to put to the minister. He will remember that last year he gave the assurance that his officials were going to try their best to spread these printing contracts beyond the Ontario-Quebec triangle. I should like him to give us an indication how this spread has been effected in the last financial year by giving some figures that will show how many more contracts have gone to the western provinces and the eastern provinces than in the year before in terms of their value. How successful has the minister been in spreading these contracts across the country? There is no real reason why they should go as a matter of right to printing firms in the Ottawa, Toronto or Montreal areas.


Henri Courtemanche: I am able to give
some figures to the hon. member that will indicate that we are increasing the amount of contracts outside of Ontario and Quebec. In Alberta the amount spent this year from April 1 to June 30 was $8,330 compared with $7,746 for the whole of 1958. In British Columbia the amount from April 1 to June 30 this year is $5,156 compared with $3,075 in 1958. In Manitoba the figures are $14,849 and $10,463 in 1958. In other provinces the increases are similar.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am very pleased that there have been these increases, but while the percentage increase may be great I think the minister will admit that the amounts are still minor in total compared with the rather huge sums that are dispensed in this particular region. I know there are advantages in this particular region but printers beyond the triangle tell me that they would like the opportunity to get in on some of this business. I should like the minister to carry on this policy and push it further. I would
Supply-Secretary of State not like him to get lost in the printing backwoods in this area.


Lionel Chevrier: Is the minister not going to answer some of the statements made by the hon. member for Hull particularly in connection with the contracts involving these higher tenders? Does the minister not think he should tell the committee how it was that in four of these five contracts which were awarded it appears that the contract went to the highest tenderer in each case? (Translation):


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to give certain information contained in one of the letters which have been tabled early in July. It is to be noticed that as detailed specifications were requested, Wilson Jones Limited and Cope-land-Chatterson Ltd., to compare only the two companies involved, were bidding different prices. It will be noted also that the price was adjusted as certain specifications were required. In fact, item 4 of the said letter reads as follows:
(Text):
Under date of March 9, 1959, a requisition for 1,000 binders French was received. Tenders were invited as hereunder.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, this information is taken from a letter sent to me on July 2, 1959, which was part of an order for return. Looking at the bottom of the page, we find that the difference in prices quoted by the two companies was small. In fact, Wilson Jones Limited tried to conform as closely as possible to the specifications of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, and we find that the difference was slight, because its initial price, which was $5.56 per binder, was raised to $7.04, whereas Cope-land-Chatterson submitted a price of $7.84.
However, Mr. Chairman, I should hope that the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron), who spoke at great length after the letter was tabled in the house, would have read this paragraph in the letter that was produced in early July and which reads as follows. (Text):
The order was placed with Wilson Jones Company Limited on the basis that a made-up sample would be accepted by the department prior to production. While the order still stands, the company has not yet been able to satisfy the department that the exact specifications have been met.
(Translation):
Another paragraph reads.
(Text):
As the department of public printing and stationery has 2,500 paidup back orders on hand, some received as far back as January, from schools, companies, libraries, etc., and in view of the urgent requirement in the Department of Mines
6286	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State and Technical Surveys, it is recommended that authority be given to place an order with Copeland-Chatterson Limited.
(Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, this does not alter what I have said to any extent. I said it was easy for the head of a department, as he is placed so as to be informed, to find all sorts of faults and to explain them as he thinks fit in a letter. That is why I said that it is not so much the minister who is responsible.
If the department was not satisfied with the work of Wilson Jones Limited, it would ask the firm to produce something else to the department's satisfaction. And the minister knows that it is always easy to find a reason for dissatisfaction. That is why I am asking for an investigation so that not only the person who signed the letter but also those who sent in a tender are given an opportunity to state their case, in order to know the difference between the various samples produced for the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. So that does not alter what I said. That is what I said. It may be that officials from the department have a feeling of hatred with regard to some firms and find all sorts of faults. An investigation by the public accounts committee would either justify the government or condemn those responsible.


Lionel Chevrier: If the minister prefers,
I will speak in French. The minister read two paragraphs from the letter of July 2, 1959. But in reading those two paragraphs I feel the minister has not given sufficient explanation to the house to justify the awarding of a contract such as this one, of four contracts I should say, to the highest bidder. The minister has no doubt other reasons than those mentioned in the letter. He is aware of the situation. He did not himself explain to the house how it is that these four contracts went to the highest bidder.


Henri Courtemanche: I would point out to the hon. member for Laurier that the discussions about those binders began in 1956, under another administration. And it is the continuation of those discussions which resulted in what we now see under item 4. As specifications were given-and there again I rely on what I have myself-it is to be noted that Wilson Jones Limited, was quoting a price comparable to that of the firm to which the contract was awarded.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not satisfied with the minister's reply. He said the negotiations for the binders started under a former government. The minister has been asked to indicate when the contracts were let, and the reply given in the minister's return to the house shows that the contracts were let in December 1958, and therefore not under another administration. Also, the other replies indicate that six contracts were let, four of which went to the highest tenderer. I think the minister owes the committee some explanations as to the circumstances.


Henri Courtemanche: I can only transmit the information given to me. I have the letter here, and it clearly shows that tenders were called, and certain specifications were given as to the type of binder required. Unfortunately, no bids were made by other companies than Wilson Jones Limited.


Alexis Pierre Caron: The minister has just indicated that in October 1956, authority had been granted to look into the matter with Cope-land-Chatterson Ltd. That is a fact.
(Text):
In October 1956, the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys was authorized by this department to work with Copeland-Chatterson Limited in the development of a binder for the Atlas of Canada.
(Translation):
And even if I were to read it all, I could not establish anything else. We are forced to work out the model with Copeland-Chatterson Ltd., they say, on account of the ability of that firm. That does not exclude the right to ask other firms to submit a plan. The proof of that is that when a plan had been established, tenders were called from several firms; in fact, five firms sent in a tender: Wilson Jones Limited; E. G. Thomas; Brown Bros. Limited; Charles Chapman Company; Copeland-Chatterson Ltd. That shows clearly that the department had no intention to do business with one firm but to call for tenders and to grant the contracts, as far as possible, to the lowest tenderer. The explanation that has been given does not justify the awarding of the contract to the highest tenderer. The only way that we could justify the granting of a contract to the highest tenderer would be to call before the public accounts committee the departmental officials involved.
We should call the firms which were invited to tender on the various contracts and have the models produced before the committee so

that we could see for ourselves whether any particular model was so different that it could not have served the purpose.
Therefore I suggest that the only way to satisfy the hon. members and the Canadian public is to call before the committee the highest bidder who was awarded the contract and to submit to the public accounts committee the reasons for that choice. If the authorities were justified it would be easy for them to prove it and if they were not justified I know that the minister and the government would want to tell them exactly how they should proceed in future.


Henri Courtemanche: I admit we would get more detailed information from an investigation by the Public Accounts committee. On the other hand I remind the committee that in 1956 Copeland-Chatterson Ltd. were asked to make a model. You then considered that firm to be better qualified than any other to make a model. After that, tenders were invited from other firms, and other firms were asked to make a binder of the most satisfactory model, that is the one proposed in 1956 by the Chatterson firm. That is what I gather from this letter. As tenders were received, it was noted that prices kept getting closer to those of the Copeland-Chatterson firm.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the minister admit that it would be more satisfactory to review all this matter? We do not want to blame any one, but there is something wrong somewhere. In fact, the investigating committee found that the highest tender was not the best one. But until then, I am not satisfied, and most of the members, even those who sit on the government side are not either. However, if this whole matter were reviewed, I think everybody would be satisfied.


Lionel Chevrier: May I make a suggestion to the minister to help him in the solution of this matter?
Does the minister not think that because of the suggestions made by the member for Hull (Mr. Caron), it would be better for him to make a statement, to-morrow perhaps, on the way the contracts were awarded and on the reasons why they were awarded to the highest tenderer?
Of course, if the hon. member insists on the holding of an inquiry about that, the decision remains with him. I do not want to dictate to him, but I think that to reach a practical conclusion, since it is late now, 66968-9-398
Supply-Secretary of State it would be better if the hon. minister were to make a statement tomorrow about that.
Now, I would like to ask another question of the minister, and this in all sincerity. Does he frankly think that he has given an adequate answer to the hon. member a while ago about Le Flambeau printing establishment?


Henri Courtemanche: Oh yes.


Lionel Chevrier: Then I ask him this question: Is it a fact that the owner of that printing establishment is the brother-in-law of the minister?


Henri Courtemanche: I did not deny that Mr. Gilbert Paquette owned that establishment.


Lionel Chevrier: No; the question I asked was this. Is the owner of Le Flambeau printing shop, the brother-in-law of the minister?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: Does the minister believe that it is appropriate for a contract from the printing bureau...


Mr. Tremblay:: Let us hear about the construction of the printing bureau.


Lionel Chevrier: -and this for an amount, I do not know how much, because it would be necessary to add it up-in any case, does the minister think that it is in order for a contract of that importance to be awarded by the hon. minister to such a close relative as the owner of the Flambeau?


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, I would
not like to see the good name of a Mont Laurier printer tarnished because he is my brother-in-law.


Lionel Chevrier: One moment. On a question of privilege. I did not try to tarnish the good name of the minister's brother-in-law. I simply asked a question as tactfully as possible. I am allowed to do so, I am allowed to ask the minister to answer me in the same fashion.


Henri Courtemanche: I answer the hon. member for Laurier as tactfully, as respectably and as kindly as he did, and I must tell him that as a printer, whether from Mont Laurier or from anywhere, anybody is allowed, provided he meets the prices established by the printing bureau or the conditions laid down, to put in a bid; he is also allowed to enter into contracts, and I fail to see why

Supply-Secretary of State Mr. Paquette, the owner of the printing concern Le Flambeau, who is my brother-inlaw, would not have the right to get contracts to the amount of $2,000.
In addition, I must say that I did not put any pressure; I must tell him that I never told anybody at the printing bureau that Mr. Paquette was my brother-in-law.
I was not aware of the contracts he could get. Last year, 35,000 contracts were awarded. Four people are authorized to sign contracts at the printing bureau and those contracts never come into the hands of the Secretary of State.


Lionel Chevrier: I have no doubt that what the minister just said is true, that the contract has been awarded under normal circumstances, but what I asked him was simply this to which he did not answer: does he feel it is right, under such circumstances, that a contract be awarded to such a close relative of the minister?


Henri Courtemanche: I just answered, perhaps not directly, but I just said to the hon. member for Laurier that I was not even aware that this contract had been granted to Le Flambeau in Mont Laurier.


Lionel Chevrier: Well, if the minister had known, would he have opposed it?


Henri Courtemanche: I would have asked that a close eye be kept on the situation.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: That completes the estimates of the Secretary of State. We then come to legislation, vote No. 174-


Frank Howard: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to delay anything but, if I may, I should like to suggest that this might be an appropriate time to cease and to start again tomorrow.


Mr. Bell (Carleton):: Let us finish legislation.


Frank Howard: I understood the general understanding to be that we would proceed this far. As a consequence of that understanding I took upstairs a number of the notes that I had for the purpose of dealing with the items under legislation. I did that as a consequence of the general appreciation we had that we would proceed to the end of the estimates of the Secretary of State.


An hon. Member:: Ten o'clock.


Mr. Monieilh (Perth):: Ten o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: Will the acting house leader indicate what the government proposes to do tomorrow?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I think we have had a very good day and a fine spirit of co-operation throughout. We have covered a considerable amount of business with the same care that the house has shown throughout the session. This is the business left for completion. On estimates we have left national revenue and C.B.C.; legislation; health and welfare; finance; a scattered few supplementary estimates for agriculture, citizenship and immigration and labour which were not passed at the time those estimates were before the committee; and also the item which was allowed to stand in the privy council estimates this evening, namely item 303.
Then I will list the legislative matters in the order in which they will be taken up when we reach them. No. 1 would be No. 7 on today's order paper, the bill with respect to a bridge across the Niagara river; No. 2, the bill with respect to the bridge across the Pigeon river; No. 3, the amendments to the bill with respect to a national energy board; No. 4, second reading of bill No. S-32, to repeal certain fishery laws.


Lionel Chevrier: That is not No. 4.


Gordon Minto Churchill: It is No. 4 in the order in which I am giving them. It is No. 9 on today's order paper.


Lionel Chevrier: I am sorry for the interruption.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Next would be No. 1 on the order paper, consideration of amendments to the Income Tax Act. The next will be the amendment to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act; that is item No. 2 on the order paper. No. 3 on my list would be No. 4 on the order paper with reference to the Criminal Code, and then would come No. 6 on today's order paper which is Bill No. C-70 to amend the Combines Investigation Act and the Criminal Code. That is the business before the house for completion.


Lionel Chevrier: Before the minister goes any further, what will be the order in which this legislation would be taken? Will it be the order which the minister has given, or will the legislation come first?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Of the estimates?


Lionel Chevrier: No. I was asking-


Gordon Minto Churchill: We shall continue with the estimates.


Lionel Chevrier: In the order given?


Gordon Minto Churchill: In the order given and then when we reach the legislation that is the order I suggest. It is for the house to determine how we shall proceed. I make this suggestion for consideration, that we assemble tomorrow at 9.30.


An hon. Member:: Oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Let me make the suggestion, and we can discuss it for a minute or two.
I	suggest we assemble at 9.30, sit through the meal hour at noon and do the same at the supper hour. I suggest that during the course of the day we might confer, as we did today, to see what progress can be made and how long the sitting might be for Saturday. If that is agreeable to the house, that is what I would suggest as the procedure.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I think that in so far as the general aspect of that program is concerned it would appeal to us on this side of the house, but there is one matter with which we are particularly concerned, as the minister knows, and it is the last item but one which he has mentioned, Bill No. C-70, an act to amend the Combines Investigation Act and the Criminal Code. I wonder if the minister could give some indication as to whether or not it is the intention to proceed with this bill as it is.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should be in a position to let hon. members know when we assemble tomorrow morning.


Lionel Chevrier: That is satisfactory.


Frank Howard: I think it would be better if we were to meet at the regular hour of
II	o'clock, and proceed from there to the determination of the hours of sitting for the rest of the day-whether or not we should sit through the lunch hour and through the supper hour-rather than sit at 9.30 which I think is a bit early in view of the indeterminate state of things in so far as one particular piece of legislation is concerned.


Gordon Minto Churchill: If 9.30 is a shade early in view of the lateness of the hour at present,
Business of the House
what about 10 o'clock? I suggest we should leave it open to some extent during the course of the day and confer to see what progress the house is making and make, as we did today, sensible arrangements for the completion of the business in an orderly fashion. But I think an early start would be helpful.


Lionel Chevrier: We on this side of the house would be prepared to sit at 10.00 o'clock or 9.30 o'clock.


Frank Howard: Eleven o'clock is the established hour, and we could proceed from that point.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Beginning at 9.30 and going right through you would have a clear run of 12 hours to 9.30 in the evening. This is not unusual for the House of Commons. If we continued to 1.30 a.m. we would have a clear run of 14 hours, which is the equivalent of three normal days. There is nothing unusual about this. It has happened since I have been here, and reading the records of the past I know that our forefathers were able to endure all night sessions. I suggest that if we made an early start we would be able to be clear and definite as to the termination of the session during the course of the afternoon after we had conferred.


Lionel Chevrier: May I make this suggestion. I think, perhaps, there is something in what the hon. member for Skeena says. We have been very co-operative and have sat for quite a long time. May I make this compromise suggestion-that in order to meet the hon. member half way, or almost half way, with regard to his suggestion, we should sit at 10 o'clock. Then, I think, we shall be meeting both the suggestion made by the acting leader of the house and by the hon. member for Skeena.


Frank Howard: That is precisely the suggestion which the Minister of Trade and Commerce made. That was the second suggestion and one with which I feel we should not agree.
At 12.28 a.m. the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
66968-9-398J

Supply-Items Passed [The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS A-Department-
Administration services-
186.	Departmental administration, $697,289.
187.	Explosives Act administration, $95,418.
188.	Mineral resources division, $281,753.
Surveys and mapping branch-
189.	Branch administration, including a grant of $1,000 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $82,820.
190.	Geodetic survey of Canada, $788,606.
191.	International boundary commission, $83,224.
Topographical surveys, including expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names-
192.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,980,020.
193.	Construction or acquisition of equipment,

Canadian hydrographic service-
194.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's fee for membership in the international hydrographic bureau, $3,661,349.
195.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,777,057.
196.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts, $775,463.
197.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys, $43,800.
Map compilation and reproduction-
198.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,283,532.
199.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $180,200.
Geological survey of Canada-
200.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and $50,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $3,299,108.
201.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $198,118.
Mines branch-
202.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,527,130.
203.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $269,245.
Geographical branch-
204.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $500 to the Canadian association of geographers and a grant of $3,500 to the university of British Columbia in aid of research in foreign geography, $358,681.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
205.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national committee for Canada of the international astronomical union, the fee for membership in the international astronomical union, and a grant of $3,500 to the royal astronomical society of Canada, $896,930.
206. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $486,800.
207.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $146,838.
208. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $67,975.
General-
209.	Purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, $1,900,000.
210.	Polar continental shelf project, $567,849.
B-Dominion coal board-
211.	Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $121,925.
212.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $10,089,350.
213.	Subventions in respect of eastern coal under agreements entered into pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $1,700,000.
A-Department-
Administration services-
537.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $49,005.
Surveys and mapping branch-
Topographical surveys-
538.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $60,000.
539.	Construction or acquisition of equipment- further amount required, $12,000.
Canadian hydrographic service-
540.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $214,190.
Map compilation and reproduction-
541.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $75,000.
Geological survey of Canada-
542.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $112,000.
Mines branch-
543.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $157,825.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
544.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $57,600.
545.	Construction or acquisition of equipment- further amount required, $268,800.
B-Dominion coal board-
546.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council-further amount required, $4,332,900.
DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES General services-
127.	Departmental administration, $398,000.
128.	Information and educational service, including grant of $3,000 to Nova Scotia fisheries exhibition, $184,000.
129.	Economics service, $327,600.
130.	Industrial development service, $746,365.
Field services-
131.	Field services administration, $870,710.
Conservation and development service-
132.	Operation and maintenance (including the former destruction of harbour and gray seals), $5,532,452.
133.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,657,900.
134.	Inspection and consumer service, $1,794,705.
135.	Fishermen's indemnity plan administration, $236,600.

Special-
136.	Canadian share of expenses of the international commissions detailed in the estimates, $972,830.
137.	Newfoundland bait service, $435,560.
138.	Extension of educational work in co-operative producing and selling among fishermen, $90,000.
139.	Fisheries Prices Support Act administration, $63,940.
140.	Payment, subject to such terms and conditions as the governor in council prescribes, of assistance to producers of salted fish on products designated by the governor in council, in the amount of 50% of the laid down cost of salt purchased for their production, including authority to charge administrative costs to the vote in these estimates which provides for administration of the Fisheries Prices Support Act, $600,000.
141.	Assistance in the construction of vessels of the dragger or long liner type, subject to such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council, $350,000.
142.	Assistance in the construction of bait freezing and storage facilities, subject to the regulations established by the governor in council, $30,000.
Fisheries research board of Canada-
143.	Headquarters administration, $184,420.
144.	Operation and maintenance, including an amount of $50,000 for contributions towards fisheries research and for scholarships, $3,950,565.
145.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $942,130.
General services-
514.	Economics service-further amount reauired

515.	Industrial development service - further amount required, $800,000.
Field services-
516.	Field services administration-further amount required, $35,000.
Conservation and development service-
517.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works. land and equipment-further amount required, $295,300.
518.	Inspection and consumer service-further amount required, $75,000.
Special-
519.	Newfoundland bait service-further amount required, $101,000.
520.	To recoup the lobster trap indemnity account, established under vote 540 of the Appropriation Act No. 5, 1955, to cover the net operating loss recorded in the account as at March 31, 1959, $70,790.
521.	Destruction of dogfish and other predators, $250,000.
Fisheries research board of Canada-
522.	Construction or acquisition of buildings,
works, land and	equipment-further amount
required, $141,000.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
294.	Departmental administration, including Canada's share of the upkeep of the international bureaux at Berne and Montevideo, $1,915,483.
295.	Operations-including salaries and other expenses of staff post offices, district offices, railway mail service staffs, and supplies, equipment and other items for revenue post offices, including administration, $103,037,621.
296.	Transportation-movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration, $55,783,152.
Supply-Items Passed
297.	Financial services, including audit of revenue, money order and savings bank business; and postage stamps, $2,828,709.
569. Operations-further amount required, $488,430.
561.	Transportation-movement of mail by land, air and water, including administration-further amount required, $2,215,000.
562.	Financial services, including audit of revenue, money order and savings bank business; and postage stamps-further amount required, $80,000.

[Stage Direction]
146.	Office of the secretary to the Governor General, $205,397.
147.	To authorize reimbursement to the lieutenant-governors of the provinces of Canada of the costs of travelling and hospitality incurred in the exercise of their duties up to a maximum pei annum for each as follows;
(a)	Where the population of the province at the last decennial census did not exceed 500,000, $5,000;
(b)	where the population of the province at the last decennial census exceeded 500,000, $5,000 plus $1,000 per each 100,000 or fraction of 100,000 of population over 500,000, but not exceeding $12,000 in any case, $86,000.

[Stage Direction]
298.	Payment, notwithstanding anything in the Financial Administration Act or the Senate and House of Commons Act respecting the independence of parliament, to each member of the Queen's privy council for Canada who is a minister for whom no salary or allowance in addition to the allowances under section 33 and section 44 of the Senate and House of Commons Act is provided (the acceptance of which shall not render such member ineligible or disqualify him as a member of the House of Commons) of a salary of $7,500 per annum and pro rata for any period less than a year, $15,000.
Privy council office-
299.	General administration, $503,643.
Prime minister's residence-
300.	Maintenance and operation, $25,000.
Special-
301.	Expenses of the royal commission on energy policies including the payment, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, of honoraria or allowances as may be authorized by the treasury board to officers, clerks or employees permanently employed in the civil service for services rendered by them to the commission, $100,000.
302.	Expenses of the royal commission on price spreads of food products including the payment, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, of honoraria or allowances as may be authorized by the treasury board to officers, clerks or employees permanently employed in the civil service for services rendered by them to the commission, $170,000.
304.	Expenses pertaining to the visit to Canada in 1959 of Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness The Prince Philip. Duke of Edinburgh, including authority, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act or any other Act but subject to the approval of treasury board, to appoint and to pay persons to be engaged temporarily in connection therewith, $300,000.
National capital commission-
(formerly the federal district commission) -
305.	Administration, and operation and maintenance of parks, parkways and grounds adjoining government buildings at Ottawa and Hull, $1,795,795.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Items Passed
306.	Interest charges on outstanding loans that were made tor the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region, $350,000.
307.	Payment to the national capital fund, $4,000,000.
National capital commission-
478.	Loans to the national capital commission in accordance with section 16 of the National Capital Act for the purpose of acquiring property in the national capital region, excluding property being acquired for the purpose of establishing what is commonly referred to as the "greenbelt", $2,300,000.
479.	Loans to the national capital commission, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with section 16 of the National Capital Act for the purpose of acquiring property in that area of the national capital region commonly referred to as the "greenbelt", $9,000,000.
Special-
563.	Expenses of the royal commission on railway problems including the payment, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, of honoraria or allowances as may be authorized by the treasury board to officers, clerks or employees permanently employed in the civil service for services rendered by them to the commission, $200,000.

[Stage Direction]
372.	Departmental administration, $303,040.
373.	Companies division, $115,035.
374.	Trade marks division, including a contribution to the international office for the protection of industrial property, $196,478.
375.	Bureau for translations, $1,599,375.
Patent and copyright office-
376.	Administration division, $207,190.
377.	Patent division, $1,991,670.
378.	Copyright and industrial designs division, including a contribution to the international office for the protection of literary and artistic works, $31,115.
Special-
379.	Special expenditure in connection with a commission under the Inquiries Act to inquire into the workings of the Patent Act, the Copyright Act, the Industrial Designs Act, and other related legislation, $11,900.

[Stage Direction]
47. Salaries and the expenses of office, $79,420.

[Stage Direction]
311.	Departmental administration, $656,595.
312.	Purchasing, stationery and stores, $1,169,699.
313.	Distribution of official documents, $432,245.
314.	Printing and binding official publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public, $700,000.
315.	Printing of Canada Gazette, $110,000.
316.	Printing and binding the annual statutes, $35,000.
317.	Plant equipment and replacements, $397,711.

[Stage Direction]
67. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $3,661,089.
501. Salaries and contingencies of the commission -further amount required, $104,872.
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, July 18, 1959