1959-03-12

STANDING ORDERS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. W. Kucherepa (High Park) presented the second report of the standing committee on standing orders and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: May I inform the house that I have tabled a copy in English of the annual report and statement of accounts of the governor of the Bank of Canada to the Minister of Finance for the year 1958. Copies of this report in English are now available in the distribution office.
I had expected to have a copy of the report in French available for tabling at the same time, but I regret to say that there has been a little delay in that respect. I believe a copy in French will be available for tabling within the next 24 hours, and that copies will be available for distribution among hon. members within the next few days.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I, in the absence through illness of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, make on his behalf an announcement concerning a Canadian aid program in southeast Asia. The announcement is being made simultaneously elsewhere.
For a number of years the United Nations commission for Asia and the Far East has been conducting a series of investigations and studies of the development possibilities of the lower Mekong river basin. The Mekong is one of the great rivers of the world. Its total length is about 2,600 miles, and its length in the lower basin is 1,600 miles. It actually rises in southern China but for most of its course it flows through or between
Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and South Viet Nam. The economic health and the political stability and independence of these countries are in large measure related to this great river.
The development of the lower Mekong offers great economic benefits to the four riparian states and, indeed, to the region as a whole, in terms of flood control, irrigation, hydroelectric power and improved navigation. The realization of these benefits, however, is still many years away. Some preliminary planning and survey work has been done but further progress cannot be made without first obtaining more reliable and detailed data on the basin. The development possibilities are so encouraging that the United States, New Zealand, France, Japan and several agencies of the United Nations have already contributed men and resources to carry out these further investigations.
For our own part, while the bulk of Canada's aid under the Colombo plan has been and should be concentrated in commonwealth countries, the government considered that this project was sufficiently challenging and promised such great benefits as to warrant some Canadian participation in it. Moreover, the government was influenced by the fact that these benefits would go in substantial degree to countries with which Canada has been closely associated in recent years through our membership in the international supervisory commissions in Indochina.
We therefore made available the services of Lieutenant Colonel G. S. Andrews, surveyor general of the department of lands and forests of the province of British Columbia, to make a detailed study of the problems and estimated costs involved in the aerial surveying and mapping of the Mekong river which, as hon. members will appreciate, is an essential first step toward the eventual realization of the potential benefits of this project.
On the basis of Colonel Andrews' report the Canadian government has now decided to participate in the first priority phase of the survey and mapping of the main stem of the Mekong river. This work, which Canadian companies are particularly well qualified to undertake, is expected to extend over two years and will involve an aggregate Canadian contribution of up to $1.3 million. It is the intention of the government to finance

Announced Canadian Aid to Southeast Asia this contribution from Colombo plan funds which parliament will be asked to appropriate in 1959-60 and 1960-61.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday we had an announcement by the Secretary of State for External Affairs regarding supplementary action in the matter of assistance to a particular underdeveloped country, and now the Minister of Finance on behalf of his colleague makes an announcement regarding assistance to a development project along the Mekong river which extends through Indo-China and, of course, through part of China itself.
The little country of Laos, with which Canada has had association through the international truce commission, based on the agreements of 1954 and concluded at Geneva, will receive assistance from Canada. The agreements are now to be given further emphasis by this additional assistance amounting to $1.3 million, which is part of our Colombo plan project. I am not aware from what the minister said whether this assistance will extend to the neighbouring country of Cambodia or to the larger neighbouring country of Viet Nam.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I mentioned the four countries; Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and South Viet Nam.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker; I misunderstood. That will be very welcome news in those areas. My hon. friend, however, did mention something that rather mystified me when he said that hitherto we had confined our assistance to south and southeast Asian countries that were in the commonwealth. I am sure that is not the case. We have given some assistance by way of bursaries and training projects to Indo-China and Burma. We have already given some assistance to Viet Nam, and we even anticipated the Soviet union in the assistance we gave for technical training assistance in Cambodia. However, that is not said by way of disagreement with this announcement of policy, which I am sure will be warmly welcomed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member will permit me to correct him. I did not say that our assistance had been confined to those countries. I said it had been and should be concentrated in the commonwealth countries.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thank my hon. friend, Mr. Speaker. In any event the whole house will concur in the decision of the government in this respect, which is a further manifestation of Canada's interest in accordance with her capacity in the economic

and social problems of underdeveloped countries, and in this instance in Asia.
We do this, I take it, as was always done before, without any conditions attached. We do this because we feel that at this difficult time in the history of the world those nations that are more fortunate than others must in accordance with capacity share in the building up of the standard of life of those countries, and in this way we make our contribution to the easing of international tension in our time.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: This is a
welcome announcement. Any step forward in the provision of economic assistance to underdeveloped countries is something that will receive the support of this group. We hope this will foreshadow a general expansion in Canada's contribution to important programs for economic development in the world today. The strengthening of the economies of backward countries is most important to the western world, democracy and the millions of people in those areas.


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY STATEMENT CONCERNING IMPOSITION OF TOLLS  TABLING OF NOTES
Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to
make a statement regarding the agreement reached between Canada and the United States on the tolls to be charged on the St. Lawrence seaway. With the concurrence of my colleague the Secretary of State for External Affairs, I now table copies in English and in French of the exchange of notes dated March 9, 1959, constituting an agreement between the Canadian and United States governments. The agreement makes provision for the division of the toll revenue, for the method of collection, for future minor amendments of the tariff and for the constitution of a joint tolls advisory board to hear complaints with respect to interpretation of the tariff or alleged unjust discrimination.
The tariff becomes effective from April 1, 1959. The whole concept of defraying the cost of construction and maintenance of the seaway, including the cost of deepening and maintaining the Welland canal as an integral part of the seaway by charging tolls, was provided for in the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority Act of 1951. This principle was fully debated at that time and passed without dissent by parliament.
The tariff of tolls agreed to has the same rates recommended by the tolls committees of the seaway entities on June 12, 1958. Some changes and clarifications have been made in the definitions of bulk and general cargoes.

Statement on St. Lawrence Seaway Tolls
The tariff of tolls is based on a composite assessment which encompasses a charge per ton of cargo actually carried together with a charge per gross registered ton of the vessel, and will be applicable to all vessels whether laden, partially laden or in ballast.
The method of assessing and collecting the tolls and rates was adopted with the following objectives: one, procedural simplicity which will minimize the cost of collection and expedite the dispatching of vessels; two, recovery of the cost of the seaway and its operation on a basis which will provide economic rates to users and encourage traffic.
The rates will be as follows: 1. A vessel will be assessed 6 cents per gross registered ton of the vessel and, in addition, 42 cents per ton of bulk cargo and 95 cents per ton of general cargo carried. 2. A vessel will be assessed 4 cents per gross registered ton of the vessel and, in addition, 40 cents per ton of bulk cargo and 90 cents per ton of general cargo carried. For partial transit of the new seaway facilities between Montreal and lake Ontario, where there are seven locks, the user will be charged for each lock transited 15 per cent of the toll for complete passage.
3.	For each passage through the Welland canal only a vessel will be assessed 2 cents per gross registered ton of the vessel and, in addition, 2 cents per ton of bulk cargo and 5 cents per ton of general cargo carried. In the Welland canal a partial transit will be assessed 50 per cent of the toll for complete passage irrespective of the number of locks used.
Other main features of the agreement and tariff of tolls are: First of all, commercial vessels carrying passengers will be charged 50 cents per passenger for each lock transited between Montreal and lake Erie, in addition to the vessel and cargo charge. The charge for a complete transit of the seaway will be $7.50 per passenger. The tariff will apply to all types of craft using the seaway, including government owned or government operated vessels except vessels of or employed by the seaway entities. Pleasure craft will be subject to the same rates as other vessels except that there is a minimum charge for pleasure craft of $2 per lock transited. The minimum charge for all other vessels will be $4 per lock transited.
The unit of weight for the collection of tolls will be a ton of 2,000 pounds. Provision is made for prior registration of vessels and satisfactory security to be given for the payment of charges subsequent to which passage will be permitted. Toll collection and invoicing of accounts, as well as the preparation of statistical data, are assigned to the St. Lawrence seaway authority at Cornwall. The
66968-9-118
St. Lawrence seaway development corporation will participate in the billing and collecting operation and will share in the annual cost of these services. Charges will be billed to the ship owner or representative promptly and will be payable within 14 days of the date of billing. An additional charge for non-payment within this period may be levied in an amount not to exceed 5 per cent of the amount due.
For through passages to or from Montreal and lake Ontario the invoice will show two amounts to be paid; 1, Canadian funds to cover the portion applicable to the St. Lawrence seaway authority of Canada, which has been intially set at 71 per cent of the total charges, and 2, the balance of the account, or 29 per cent, in United States funds representing the portion applicable to the St. Lawrence seaway development corporation. Tolls for passage on the Welland canal will be paid in Canadian funds only.
Bulk cargo as defined in the tariff of tolls includes such goods as are loose or in mass and generally must be shovelled, pumped, blown, scooped or forked in the handling and, without limiting the generality of the term or otherwise affecting its meaning, it is deemed to include barley, buckwheat, corn, dried beans, dried peas, flaxseed, rapeseed and other seeds, flour, grain screenings, mill feed containing not more than 35 per cent of ingredients other than grain or grain products, oats, rye and wheat, loose or in sacks; cement, loose or in sacks; coke and petroleum coke, loose or in sacks; domestic package freight; liquids carried in ships' tanks; ores and minerals, loose or in sacks, including alumina, bauxite, coke, gravel, phosphate rock, sand, stone and sulphur; pig iron, scrap iron and scrap steel; pulpwood, poles and logs, loose or bundled; raw sugar, loose or in sacks; and wood pulp, loose or in bales. All commodities not included in the definition of "bulk" are classified as general cargo.
The agreement provides that the toll revenue for that portion of the seaway between Montreal and lake Ontario be shared proportionately to the annual charges of the two seaway entities. The agreement also permits, under appropriate procedure, changes in the list of goods defined as bulk cargo.
The joint tolls advisory board to be constituted will consist of four persons, two of whom shall be appointed by the St. Lawrence seaway authority and two by the St. Lawrence seaway development corporation. The board will hear complaints relating to the interpretation of the tariff by the authority or the corporation, or with respect to alleged unjust discrimination arising out of the
1862	HOUSE OF
Statement on St. Lawrence Seaway Tolls operation of the tariff, and report its findings and recommendations to the authority and the corporation.
The two seaway entities are charged with the duty of reporting to their respective governments not later than July 1, 1964 as to the sufficiency of the authorized tolls to meet the statutory requirements and to cause the tariff to be reviewed accordingly. Reviews of the tariff at other times may, of course, take place by decision of the two governments.
As hon. members know, this great inland waterway will become operative with the opening of the navigation season this year, and we have every reason to look forward to a material increase in the volume of shipping using these facilities. This should be of great assistance to the development of the commerce of this country as a whole, and should enable goods produced in Canada to become more competitive in world markets. We look forward to the whole economy of Canada benefiting with the opening of this great seaway project.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: For a
moment, Mr. Speaker, I thought I was listening, particularly during the last part of the minister's remarks, to a speech made by myself. However, I am sure the house will welcome the statement the minister has made, because it will give notice to shippers and ship operators of the tariffs which the two corporations intend to charge in ample time for them to get ready for the opening, which we hope will bring that voluminous amount of traffic which the minister and others have stated.
There are two questions which came to my mind while listening to the statement. The minister stated there would be established a joint tolls advisory board, composed of two representatives from Canada and two representatives from the United States, to deal with the tariff of tolls. My first question is this. The minister will remember that last year when he made a similar announcement prior to the tolls being investigated by the two groups, I asked him whether the board of transport commissioners would have jurisdiction over these tolls. He replied that they would, in conformity with a section in the St. Lawrence seaway authority statute. My question is, why has this change been made?


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the minister would defer his answer until we hear the hon. member for Kootenay West.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the whole house has listened with great interest to this very important statement. However, I think everyone
[Mr. Hees.l

realizes that it takes time to digest a lengthy statement like this, and particularly the attached documents. I am not one who is given to making off the cuff endorsations or condemnations until I have had an opportunity of studying the situation. This represents the view of this group. We are unable to assess fully, from the information received, the impact of this agreement on the various sections of Canada or on certain industries, agricultural producers and so on. We will therefore have to reserve our objective and informed comments until a later date.
However, this is a two-party agreement, completed between the governments of Canada and the United States. We realize that in those circumstances we cannot have all we want if we are to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement. We do hope the government has done its very best in securing this agreement to protect the interests of all sections of Canada. We all know, I think, that the government has received representations from certain provincial governments in Canada, and possibly from some sections of industry, urging a toll free St. Lawrence seaway. I was pleased to note, while listening to the minister's statement, that there is provision in the agreement for consideration of complaints by persons concerned to the board authority. I do hope they take every advantage of that provision in the agreement to bring to the attention of the government the views of various industries, producers and users of the canal across Canada with the idea that as time proceeds the arrangements under this agreement will be satisfactory to all sections of the Canadian people.
In conclusion I want to mention that these requests which have come from various provinces and certain industries and producers in Canada for free tolls spring from the increasing costs of transportation in Canada at this time; that is their basis. I think the protests and the whole argument in support of free tolls are convincing evidence of the necessity of the establishment of a national transportation policy in Canada at the earliest possible date.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member for Laurier, the answer to his question is that the joint advisory committee has been established because it is considered by the St. Lawrence seaway authority, the St. Lawrence seaway development corporation and the governments of the two countries that this will be the most efficient and fairest method of dealing with representations and complaints, if any arise, from shippers and other interested parties.


Lionel Chevrier: Then I take it that the board of transport commissioners will have no jurisdiction over the rates?


George Harris Hees: That is correct.


Lionel Chevrier: The other question is this. By what rules and regulations will the new United States-Canadian toll board determine whether a rate is unjust or discriminatory?


George Harris Hees: They will hear the complaints and make their recommendations, having so heard the complaints, to the two governments, and the governments will report back to them.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport, notice of which has been sent to him. Can the minister comment on the view that rate differentials of 42 to 90 cents in the seaway tolls make it cheaper to ship iron ore from Seven Islands to Cleveland by way of the gulf of Mexico and rail than to send it by the St. Lawrence seaway?


George Harris Hees: I wish to thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question. I am unaware what the specific rail and water rates may be from Seven Islands to Cleveland by way of the gulf of Mexico, but the toll committee in determining rates for bulk cargo, including iron ore, did take into account shipping rates by alternative routes, and concluded that the recommended rates via the seaway would be competitive for most traffic movements.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In the issue of the Montreal Gazette of March 11, 1959, an article appears to the effect that the north Atlantic freight conference representing foreign lines sailing into the St. Lawrence and the great lakes intends to quote new ocean rates to Toronto which would be only slightly higher than those being charged to Montreal and, by inference, that the rates to Chicago would be only slightly higher than those being charged to Toronto.
In view of this intimation, is it the intention of the minister or of the government to bring these new ocean rates under the jurisdiction of the board of transport commissioners in the same manner and to the same extent as the railways and the Canadian water carriers are regulated?


George Harris Hees: I have read the report to which the hon. member has referred, and I have 66968-9-118J
Legislation Respecting R.C.M.P. heard rumours of this possibility. My department is looking into this whole matter.


Lionel Chevrier: Will the minister make an announcement with regard to this matter at a later date?


George Harris Hees: Yes, as soon as we have been able to conclude our studies of the matter.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Would the minister, while he is taking the question by the hon. member for Laurier into consideration, also extend his study to the question of chartered ocean shipping proceeding up to the lakehead and the rates that will be charged on these particular ships?


George Harris Hees: Yes, I shall be very glad to do so.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the Minister of Transport a further question which arises out of his statement on tolls. The board of transport commissioners has rules and regulations by means of which it determines what constitutes unjust freight rates with respect to railways. My question is this. How will the new joint board on tolls determine what constitutes an unjust rate in so far as shipments up the St. Lawrence and the great lakes are concerned?


George Harris Hees: Well, they have had some experience in this matter already. After the preliminary announcement was made last June with regard to the suggested toll structure, representations were made to both authorities, to the United States authority in Washington and to the Canadian authority here. They weighed these representations, met together and brought back recommendations to their governments. That is my understanding of the way they will operate.


ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice) moved: for leave to introduce Bill C-34, an act respecting the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Explain.


Edmund Davie Fulton: This is the first of two bills which were forecast in the speech from the throne. This bill deals with the organization and discipline of the force, and will be followed by a second bill dealing with Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension arrangements.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

Inquiries of the Ministry
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


NEWFOUNDLAND
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Justice if, as reported in the press, he stopped the transfer to Newfoundland of additional members of the R.C.M.P. requested by the attorney general of the province under section 13 of the intergovernmental agreement; and if so, on what grounds?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the hon. gentleman's question is that the authority of the Attorney General of Canada is required before any reinforcements are sent to any province, and the authority has not yet been given.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question. In view of the language of section 13, which says that Canada shall, at the request of the attorney general of the province addressed to the commissioner, increase the strength of the division as requested if, in the opinion of the Attorney General of Canada, having regard to other responsibilities and duties of the force, such increase is possible, would the minister say whether it is because the members of the force were not available that this request was not complied with?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The matter is still under consideration, and I am not able to answer the hon. gentleman's question at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If I might ask a further supplementary question, does the hon. gentleman think he has any discretion other than to determine whether the number of police which have been requested is available, and can the minister tell us whether, as the press reports-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -these men have already been assembled?


Mr. Speaker:: I think the last question of the hon. member is really asking for an interpretation of a document. In other words the hon. member is asking for an opinion, and I doubt whether the question is a proper one to ask at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, it seems to me that this question relates to a solemn undertaking by the government of Canada to another government, and I should be permitted to ask the minister whether the government intends to carry out that solemn obligation.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has asked his question and the minister has answered to the effect that the determination has not yet been made. Does the minister wish to comment further on the subsequent question, in view of it having been asked?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Only to say, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Justice requires no lecture from the hon. gentleman as to solemn obligations. The matter is under consideration, as I have already stated.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the minister if he has received any communication from the attorney general of the province?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have, and I was in communication with him last night.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the Prime Minister if he has received any communication from the premier of the province about this matter, and if so would he indicate its nature to the house?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the close relationship between the government of Newfoundland and the hon. gentleman would no doubt provide an answer to his question.


BRIDGES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Alexis Caron (Hull):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. In answer to a question of mine yesterday with regard to the Prince Albert bridge over the Saskatchewan river, the minister said it was built under the roads to resources program. Does that mean what are generally called access roads?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: The roads to resources program, Mr. Speaker, has been explained in the house on several occasions. It covers the roads we are building in agreement with nine of the provinces to open up new resource areas in these various provinces.


Alexis Pierre Caron: A supplementary question. Are there any roads within or immediately outside Prince Albert in that program? What I mean is, in the program of roads are there any within the city of Prince Albert or in the immediate vicinity?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, the main project in the agreement in the

province of Saskatchewan is a road to Uranium City, of which the southern terminus is Prince Albert.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Another supplementary question. Does that road at the present time go any further than Lac la Ronge, which is 150 miles from the city of Prince Albert?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I cannot give the house the exact mileage that the road has gone beyond Lac la Ronge, but I would say 30 or 40 miles at least. When the road is finished it will go 550 miles beyond.


Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Might I ask the minister a further supplementary question. Is it not a fact that the only new road being built is from Lac la Ronge northward, and that Lac la Ronge is some 150 miles away from the city of Prince Albert? Therefore the bridge is not anywhere near this road the minister mentioned?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I can inform the hon. member that there are several roads in this program in the province of Saskatchewan.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Could the minister tell me whether Prince Albert is in the Prime Minister's county?


Mr. Speaker:: I suggest that the hon. member will find his answer in the appendix to Hansard.


URANIUM
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. If he has not the information available perhaps he would take this as notice. Is it true that Japan has purchased and taken delivery of six tons of uranium oxide from South Africa without a bilateral agreement having first been concluded between those two countries? If so, would this have any bearing on the government's policy that there must be a bilateral agreement before Canadian producers can sell uranium oxide in more than token quantities?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: An alleged sale of uranium by South Africa to Japan has been suggested on several occasions during past months, but there does not appear to be any evidence to support this suggestion. However, I will look into this matter again having regard to the question asked by the hon. gentleman.
Inquiries of the Ministry



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, on March 3 the Leader of the Opposition asked the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question concerning the renewal of the agreement between the United States and Canada for the supply of uranium.
The agreements to which reference was made are the commercial contracts between Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited and the United States atomic energy commission for the supply to the United States of Canadian produced uranium concentrates during the period from 1955 to March 31, 1962 or, in the case of a few mines, to March 31, 1963. These contracts grant the United States atomic energy commission an option to buy the production of the Canadian mines in question during the period between the completion of deliveries under the present contracts and December 31, 1966. The United States atomic energy commission has until March 31, 1961 to exercise these options.
In view of the great importance of this matter to the Canadian uranium industry officials of Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited have in recent months been urging the United States atomic energy commission to make an early declaration of its intentions with respect to the exercise of these options.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I thank the minister for giving us this information. May I ask whether in view of the importance of this matter-an importance which the minister himself has just recognized-and of the fact that it involves something over $300 million this year in exports, the minister will take every possible step within his power to press for the resumption of this agreement by the taking up of the options.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Oh, yes; every possible effort will be made in the course of the next few months.


THE BUDGET
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. M. Benidickson (Kenora-Rainy River):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Without necessarily pinpointing the date, would it be possible for the minister to indicate the probabilities of having the budget brought in either before or after the Easter parliamentary recess?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is not our intention to introduce the budget prior to the Easter recess, but it

Inquiries of the Ministry is expected that it will be presented soon after the Easter recess. I will endeavour to make an announcement of the date of the budget if possible before the house concludes its sittings prior to the Easter recess.


DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE REPORTED STATEMENT BY PREMIER FROST RESPECTING EARLY RESUMPTION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Finance if he can make any comment on the statement attributed to Premier Frost in this morning's Globe and Mail-a statement alleged to have been made in the Ontario legislature yesterday- that he was satisfied that as the result of steps now being taken we could look forward to a resumption of the dominion-provincial conference at a fairly early date?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have not seen the report to which the hon. gentleman alludes, but I presume some reference was made to the fact that steps are under way to bring together provincial treasurers or the ministers of finance of the provinces and the Minister of Finance of the federal government after the preliminary discussions which are now proceeding have advanced to the point where such a meeting can be held.
This was all outlined earlier in the session. If the hon. gentleman has forgotten, may I refer him to the answer I gave him and his leader in reply to just such questions on the evening of February 9. An official of the Department of Finance, Mr. Burns, at the present time is visiting the provincial capitals of western Canada conferring with officials of the departments of finance of those provinces, and on his return from the west he will be visiting the provincial governments in central Canada and in the Atlantic area with a view to making arrangements in relation to the meeting and its agenda.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easi):: May I ask the
minister whether, in view of the fact that Premier Frost is likely to suggest that there would be a dissolution of the Ontario house before June, the minister thinks there is any possibility of this conference taking place before the provincial elections are held this summer?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I hope my dear and honourable friend has a little better success with his information in this respect than he had with the Martin bureau of statistics.


AGRICULTURE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Samuel Boulanger (Drummond-Ariha-baska):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct
a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the minister inform the house whether poultry products and especially turkeys are still being imported from the United States?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, although I have not
checked on the matter recently and am not certain in this respect I think there are some broiler chickens still coming in from the United States. I believe that is the case. As far as turkeys are concerned, no import permits have been issued in the past few weeks as far as I am aware.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Justice. Has the minister yet received the official copy of the Newfoundland legislation? If so, what study is the government giving to the question of disallowing this legislation?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I was informed last night that two copies had been put in the mail by the attorney general of Newfoundland. I have not yet seen them in my office. It may be that these are the official copies requested, and if so they will be placed before the cabinet immediately.



BELL ISLAND, NFLD.-ASSISTANCE TO UNEMPLOYED MINERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask
the minister from Newfoundland if he has received a telegram or other communication from the mayor of Bell Island asking his assistance in preventing the impending lay-off of about one-third of the working force in the iron mines there and, if so, what action he proposes to take.


Hon. W. J. Browne (Minisier without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, I have received such a
telegram, which I have shown to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. Both he and I propose talking to the vice president of the company regarding a possible solution to the problem.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. P. Deschatelets (Maisonneuve-Rose-mont):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Can the minister tell us if it was the C.B.C. authorities who invited the hon. member for Roberval to appear on a televised news program on channel 2 on March 10 last at 11 p.m. to explain the vote abstention of several Conservative members from Quebec on the trans-Canada highway legislation? If so, would the minister be kind enough to inform us if opposition members could hope to appear on similar programs to comment on what takes place in this house?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure there are members of the opposition who, provided they are photogenic and have a reasonable degree of intelligence and a relatively well-modulated voice, would be welcome for successful programming on the



C.B.C. SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sevigny in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Indian Affairs Branch-
56. Administration, $680,907.
Mr. Howard:: Mr. Chairman, the other evening I was dealing briefly with the question of the education of our native Indian people.
I attempted to point out in a brief way that for many years we have fallen far behind in promoting adequate education for these people. I think it is time we moved as quickly as we possibly can to expand educational facilities and opportunities for the Indians of Canada. My position for some years has been that we should transfer the education of Indians to the jurisdiction of the provinces or those who would accept this responsibility.
Mr. Chairman, there appears to be an inordinate amount of noise in the committee at the moment, and I shall wait until it subsides before continuing.
It has been my thought for a long time that we should persuade the provinces to accept the responsibility of the education of our Indian people with payments being made from the federal treasury to assist in the cost of providing that education.
Last session I had occasion to mention the salary structure of teachers. I suggested that
12. 1959	1867
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the Indian affairs branch does not pay sufficiently high salaries to its teachers and therefore is not able to compete with other schools throughout the country for the most able teachers. I have some figures with respect to salaries paid to teachers in British Columbia, and I should like to compare them in a general way with the salaries paid to teachers who work under the Indian affairs branch. The schedule I have is the Department of Citizenship and Immigration schedule of salaries for 1958, and I do not know if it is still in effect.
I observe that the minister shakes her head in the negative. If there is an additional schedule then I can dispense with my remarks on this subject for the time being. I wonder if the minister at a later stage in this discussion could place on the record or have printed as an appendix to Hansard the present salary schedule for teachers in the Indian affairs branch.


Mrs. Fairclough:: Mr. Chairman, if I have permission of the committee to do so I shall be glad to place that schedule on Hansard.


The Chairman:: Is it the wish of the committee to give the minister consent to place this information on the record?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: It is kind of the minister to do this and I appreciate her co-operation. I may have some remarks to make on this subject at a later stage, depending on the information contained in the schedule.
In her opening remarks the other day the minister made reference to the question of increasing the welfare relief payments, especially with respect to moving in the direction of cash payments rather than giving food allowances. The information was set out in a table and at page 1665 of Hansard the minister is reported as saying:
At the same time new scales of food allowances in terms of dollar value have been authorized-
I wonder if the minister would make available to us the new scales so we may relate them to the food allowances previously in effect under which so many pounds of beans, peas and flour were listed. Is that information available?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That practice has been discontinued.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I did not know whether the minister was still going to use both or go directly into cash payments. I am sure that will be helpful. However, I do find that in the scale that was placed on Hansard the standard rates of $22 for a single adult and $15 for each additional adult or child over
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration 12 years of age and $12 for each child under 12 are not very much different from the maximum amounts authorized before, with the exception of the increase from $18 to $22 per month for the adult. Columns A, B, C and D indicate that additional rates may be payable, depending upon high cost areas and special circumstances.
I hope the minister will not make too many payments under the standard rates, because these are disgracefully low. I hope she will keep her thinking in terms of the necessity of providing cash relief to indigent Indians. I hope she will keep in mind schedule D, let us say, rather than the others. Even so, in my opinion these rates are still not comparable to any marked degree with relief payments made to non-Indian people.
I obtained the information I have here over the telephone this morning from the research branch of the Department of National Health and Welfare. This information is supposed to have been published in the Ontario Gazette on June 1, 1957. It relates to payments made in unorganized territory in the province of Ontario and lists maximum amounts of relief payments. If one makes brief reference to this he finds that these maximum amounts paid are in excess of maximum amounts allowable under the new, revised scale which the minister provided us with on March 5. The maximum is $120 a month to the head of a family with one dependant. I will not give the rest of them, but they move upward from there, depending on the number of dependants, to a maximum of $180 a month in relief payments to people in unorganized territory in the province of Ontario.
So far as I have been able to find out these maximum payments include payments which could be made for special diets, for medical-


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member does not want to prolong the discussion when he is obviously on the wrong tack. The amounts he has described which are paid by the several welfare agencies include all manner of things.


Charles Benjamin Howard: That is what I was saying. These maximum payments which I have listed from Ontario take into account such questions as special diets, and so on. I had got that far when the minister interrupted. They include medical supplies, household sundries, shelter, fuel and so on. I was not trying to leave the impression that they were exactly comparable. What I am trying to point out is that $38 per month for a single adult is still, in my opinion, not sufficient, depending on the circumstances of the case.


I would rather see a larger maximum allowable, to take into account particular circumstances.
I should like to raise one other matter. It has to do with our general attitude toward Indians, which I hope will change as we progress. Generally we in Canada look with abhorrence upon racial discrimination which exists in other parts of the world. We decry the attitude that exists in certain sections of the United States toward its negro population. We view with distaste the approach of apartheid in certain parts of the world such as Africa. Generally we pride ourselves on being free from discrimination in Canadaj and we say that other countries certainly are not as far advanced in racial equality as we are.
I do not think we should pride ourselves too much on that, because there still exists in a number of places in Canada, consciously or otherwise, an attitude of discrimination against native Canadian peoples in terms of providing them with employment and accommodation in hotels and things of that nature. I know we cannot legislate, though we have tried it in some provinces in Canada, to make that type of discrimination illegal, because it is an attitude of mind on the part of one group as against another. I only express the hope that in the future we shall think more in terms of an attitude of equality toward our native Indian people, far more so than we have done in the past.
I should like to deal with one other specific item. Inasmuch as we shall be establishing a joint committee of this house and the other place shortly-at least I hope it will be shortly-there will be ample opportunity to go in the fullest possible detail into the problems of our native Indian peoples, and I hope we shall find some solutions to them. Therefore my remarks will be rather general and brief on this occasion.
There is a question affecting our native Indian peoples, namely the question of liquor as it relates to the native Indian, that I should like to deal with. On March 4 there was a news item in the Vancouver Province which apparently arose out of a letter that a Mr. Andy Pauli from Vancouver had sent to the minister, asking that native Indians there be given the right to buy liquor in liquor stores and also packaged goods-they are called that-in liquor stores and take them home. The announcement of the attorney general of British Columbia was to the effect that the first move, in so far as liquor rights for Indians were concerned, was entirely up to the Indians themselves.
I suppose in the strict and narrow sense, without taking into account the full provisions of the Indian Act in so far as liquor

is concerned, the attorney general was correct. But I think someone should either bring him up to date on what the law of this country is, or he should go back to law school for a little while to find out what is in the Indian Act; because the attitude of the attorney general in that province is not conducive to providing equality of opportunity for our native Indian peoples.
He says that in the first instance it is up to the Indians themselves. I would point out the ridiculous situation which would exist if Indian band councils were to take advantage of a section of the Indian Act having to do with the right to have liquor on the Indian reserves without having the right to be in possession of liquor in other parts of the province. An Indian band council could do this under a section of the Indian Act. If they took that action and the attorney general of British Columbia, or the attorney general of any other province, did not object within 60 days; if they had a referendum and the reserve decided that they wanted the right to consume liquor on the reserve, we would find that they would be in the ridiculous position of having the right to consume liquor on the reserve but no right to buy it or to keep it there. They would have the right to drink in a beer parlour, as they have in British Columbia, but they could not buy a case of beer in a beer parlour and take it home on the reserve, where they could have the right to have it if they were to follow the suggestion of the attorney general.
So far as British Columbia and the other provinces are concerned, the matter rests squarely on the shoulders of the provincial governments from the point of view of taking the initiative. Certainly Indian band councils could take the initiative but, as I am sure the minister realizes, that would merely promote a chaotic situation.
Our liquor laws as they relate to Indians are a bit foolish. We hear the comment that Indian people cannot handle their liquor, that they do all sorts of wild things when they have access to liquor, and therefore we should not allow them to have it or, if we do, only under strict conditions. It is quite true that when a native Indian gets a little too much of the corn under his belt he becomes drunk, obnoxious, loud-mouthed, sloppy, argumentative and wants to fight. It is quite true that is what happens to the native Indian; in fact he is almost as bad as the white man who does the same thing. There is no difference.
I should like to point out the ridiculousness of our liquor laws as they apply to native Indians. Depending on who and 66968-9-119
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration where he is, it is all right for a native Indian to drink liquor. I do not wish to speak in any derogatory sense at all, but I should like to make reference to His Excellency the Governor General.	He was in
Prince Rupert on October 21 and 22, 1952, and held a reception at which liquor was served. Native Indian people of the province of British Columbia were invited to the reception and some of them came. One of them was Frank Calder, at that time a member of the legislature. Another was Ed Bolton from Port Essington, a member of the Indian advisory committee of British Columbia. These gentlemen, both native Indians, both members of Indian bands, went to the reception and imbibed liquor there. Thereby they broke the law, the Governor General broke the law, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Canada's finest, were there and did not enforce the law.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Order. I must ask the hon. member to refrain from mentioning that His Excellency the Governor General has broken the law. In fact I must ask that he withdraw those remarks.


Mr. Winch:: Even though he did.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: I must also ask the hon. member for Vancouver East to withdraw that remark, and I must advise hon. members that the next reference of this kind concerning His Excellency the Governor General will be treated quite severely by the Chair.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I said initially that I did not want to say anything in a derogatory way. I realize it is a rule of the house that I cannot cast reflections upon His Excellency. I did not intend to do so, and I am not.


An hon. Member:: Withdraw.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: The statement was made by the hon. member for Skeena that His Excellency the Governor General had broken the law. I must ask him to withdraw that statement.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Well, I will, Mr. Chairman. That is what I intended to do earlier in my remarks, and I thought I had. The unfortunate part is that two native Indian people whom I know very well, two members of Indian bands, restricted by the laws of Canada and the laws of the province, broke the law by imbibing at a certain reception; and while the law enforcement officers of the crown, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, were there they did not, for obvious reasons, take any steps to make any arrests.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
In the past Frank Calder, by reason of the position he then held as a member of the legislature, was invited to a number of receptions. He was an Indian, a member of a band and prohibited from drinking liquor, but he was invited to a number of receptions and he went. The R.C.M.P. were there and they did not interfere in any way. Yet Frank Calder broke the law respecting liquor rights as much as it was possible to break the law. I do not blame him one bit; I would do the same thing myself if I were in his position. Again, not only at the reception I have mentioned but at every session of the provincial legislature Frank Calder was invited to a reception by the lieutenant governor of the province.
There is another awkward relationship involving a native Indian and the liquor laws. It has to do with a gentleman who is a member of the other place. Because of his background, because of his race, because of the position he holds, no doubt he has been invited to many receptions in the past at which liquor was served and undoubtedly he will be invited to similar receptions in the future. As the situation stands now, having regard to the province of Ontario only, if that hon. gentleman as a member of the other house accepts an invitation to such a reception he is in order. He is not contravening the law.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: The hon. member cannot refer to the actions of a member of the other place in the present fashion. Furthermore, all references concerning various guests whom the lieutenant governors of the various provinces may wish to have at their receptions are quite out of order. Furthermore, we cannot refer in this house to actions of lieutenant governors or matters affecting provincial legislatures.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, if I may raise a point of order, I quite agree with and I am not protesting what Your Honour has said about lieutenant governors and the Governor General, but surely when because of his race the hon. member for Skeena referred to a person who happens to be in the other place he was simply illustrating a point with respect to Indians, and was not discussing that gentleman's conduct in the other place or any speech he has made or anything he has done as a member of the other place. He was discussing the fact that an Indian was a member of the other place and was subject to additional embarrassment for that reason. It seems to me that it would be very restrictive indeed to our liberties in discussing the administration of the Indian Act if Your Honour were to insist upon so narrow an interpretation.


Harold Edward Winch: The government is very touchy on this subject.


Charles Benjamin Howard: As the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has pointed out, it is not my intention to embarrass anyone but merely to attempt to show the foolishness of our liquor laws as they apply to some people in Canada. However, I can say that a few years ago I deliberately invited a native Indian into my home, an Indian who was a member of a band and prohibited by law from consuming liquor in any other place except a licensed beer parlour or cocktail bar. Incidentally, Indians cannot get into the cocktail bars because of the discriminatory attitude of their operators. I invited this Indian into my home and offered him a drink. I mentioned to the R.C.M.P. beforehand what I was going to do and I was told not to worry, that they would not do anything about it. That again shows the ridiculousness of our liquor legislation. All I am trying to point at this time is that the situation is screwy, and that some action should be taken immediately.


Mr. McDonald (Hamilton South):: You were trying to get someone into trouble.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I was trying, my friend says, to get somebody in trouble; that is about the extent of his knowledge of this situation. I am here to point out the necessity for an attitude of equality toward the people of this country whether their skins be coloured the same as yours or differently; whether they happen to have been born of parents who were in this country many years before my parents were in this country, or under any other circumstance.
I point out that our attitude toward these people is not one of equality but one of discrimination. This is another phase of it, and the problem rests squarely on the shoulders of the province. I know the Indian Act has been amended, in effect, to remove as much as possible the jurisdiction of the minister with regard to the liquor question as it relates to Indians. This problem has been pushed where it belongs, under the jurisdiction of the various provincial governments. I am complaining that they are at fault in not working in the direction in which they should be working. There is one province, Ontario, which is far advanced in so far as the question of liquor is concerned, and I wish to heaven the other provinces would follow suit.


Mr. Badanai:: I was glad, Mr. Chairman, last week to hear the minister say that it is the government's intention to see that the Indian population receive greater consideration. I understand that the department

of Indian affairs is conducting an experimental program in Manitoba which has to do with the rehabilitation of Indians who have been disabled by tuberculosis. This is a very commendable beginning, but it should not be limited to Manitoba. We have similar cases in the district of Thunder bay. It seems to me that Indians who have spent several months or years in a sanatorium should be helped, no matter where they live.
I suggest that Fort William or Port Arthur could be considered as an ideal centre for the establishment of a rehabilitation centre in one of the lakehead hospitals, preferably in one of the wings of the Fort William district sanatorium. Young men and women could be trained as orderlies or nurses' aides. These Indians could be taught some trades to enable them to become useful citizens, and at the same time give them a feeling that they are part of the community and enjoying equality of treatment, which I believe should be the answer for all Indian problems.
Another great need is adequate recreational facilities. The problem of unemployment is greater for the Indians than for the rest of the population because of their isolation. This makes constructive recreational outlets doubly important, as the young people tend to drift around and get into trouble. A few years ago, as a result of the generosity of the president of Canadian National Railways and a few people in Fort William, a small building was made available for recreational purposes. This has helped to some extent. However, the lack of proper direction and adequate assistance has limited its usefulness. Here is a place where the government can really do something which would not cost a great deal.
It is rather regrettable, but the Indians still do not have the full benefit of all the services provided by the Ontario government that other people enjoy. An example of this may be found in the matter of mothers' allowances. I submit that while the public welfare authorities may be experiencing certain difficulties in extending their services to Indians, and while a certain amount of time will be required to achieve a smoothly functioning procedure, this should not prevent them from receiving the full benefit of all our welfare services.
At the present time when an Indian family is destitute the amount of assistance it receives from the department is much below that which would be required for even a minimum standard of subsistence. If the act were amended so that a reserve would be regarded as a municipality for such welfare purposes, with the department of Indian affairs assuming the responsibility together with the band and the province providing its usual 66968-9-1194
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration share of 40 per cent of the cost as is the case with municipalities, the difficulties would vanish.
During a recent visit to my constituency I attended a meeting of the local Indian band, which is the Ojibway tribe. Their chief, Frank Pelletier, welcomed me to their reservation school and outlined some of their needs and grievances. He felt that there was a need for higher education. He deplored the neglect in the past, but hoped that the coming generation might obtain an education which would enable the Indian to stand on his own feet in a competitive world.
The next most important need is housing. The Indians do not have the funds to decently house their growing population. Some houses which were constructed a few years ago were poorly built; they were too low; they sagged, and the doors and windows stuck. Here, surely, was a case of total indifference and a definite lack of good workmanship. They do not ask for ultra-modern buildings, but something good and solid.
These Indians certainly complained about not having a vote in federal elections. This indeed seems to be a paradox. They can vote for a provincial member but they are not allowed to vote for a federal member when, in reality, it is the federal government which has jurisdiction over their affairs.
The majority of the men are employed cutting pulpwood, but their limits are almost exhausted and within two or three years this source of livelihood will be gone unless the government provides some new limits. There are several islands in the district with good stands of timber which would be ideal for their purpose. Some time ago some individual from the department of Indian affairs made a survey, but nothing has been heard of the outcome. There seems to be a lack of co-operation, if not total neglect, on the part of the department of Indian affairs in Ottawa.
In so far as education is concerned, the elementary schools are well conducted and presided over by competent teachers. One of them, Mrs. Mary Duggan, attended the meeting. She made the suggestion that in order to prepare pupils to absorb a higher education they should be given some vocational training, such as carpentry for the boys and sewing for the girls. The department should look into the matter, since it would not cost much to set up a couple of rooms in the basement of one of the schools and have someone supervise at least a limited vocational training program.
All the pupils capable of absorbing education wishing to attend high school in the city should be provided with transportation. A small bus or even a station wagon would

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration probably meet the requirements of those on the reservation. One father whose family lives in the reserve at Squaw bay, which is approximately seven miles from the nearest high school, has three children who wish to go to high school, but there is no means of transportation. That is just a case in point. Some 12 children do attend high school in the city, and they walk two miles to the nearest city bus line. Road conditions within the reservation are also poor and this matter came in for a lot of criticism from the gathering. Only $6,000 had been appropriated for road work in three reservations, which means that only a bit of patchwork on each can be expected.
The Fort William reservations own mount MacKay, which is about 900 feet above the level of lake Superior, at the back of which the Fort William watershed is located. That is a lake known as loch Lomond, which is seven miles long and about half a mile wide, from which lake our city gets its water. I might add that it is the purest water on the continent, flowing by gravity through a tunnel on the mountainside and piped to the city. It is so pure that it needs no distilling for any purpose. The purity and taste of this water have been favourably compared with the water flowing from the summit of mount Ben Nevis, which is the highest peak in the British isles, in Fort William, Scotland. There is a road leading up around the ledge of the mountain some 600 feet high, at the end of which there is a chapel and also a cross erected in memory of the Indian soldiers who fought and died in the first great war. This side of the mountain could be beautified, and with a good road would become one of the major tourist attractions of the lakehead. I believe the department should look into this feature as a means of revenue for the Indians of the local reserve.
Another question which is worthy of consideration is the status of the Indian in relation to our liquor laws. Our Indians are asking for the same privileges enjoyed by other people. It is rather a shame that an honest, civilized human being, because he is one of the original Canadians, upon entering a beverage room is faced with a large sign which reads, "Anyone caught serving an Indian will be prosecuted". Such is not the treatment that the forebears of our present Indians were promised when they all too trustingly agreed to let the white man take over most of their possessions. How can we speak of bills of rights when we are condoning such an injustice? In the event of war these men would be in the armed services. Many of them have served with distinction in both world wars, yet they are faced with the worst type of discrimination. Let us have

equal privileges for equal responsibilities. This glorious country of Canada cannot and should not have two classes of citizens. To quote the Indian chief of our tribe himself at this particular meeting, he said:
There is good and bad among all classes of men, but the majority of my people are law abiding and should be recognized as such.
Now I wish to quote from an editorial which appeared in the Globe and Mail in late February of 1959 and which contains a few paragraphs of an address delivered by Professor W. J. Morris of the University of Toronto:
Across the country, he said, Indians constitute the most economically depressed segment of our population. A once proud and noble people showed a high degree of co-operation toward the encroaching whites; and as their inheritance they are "tossed from municipal to provincial to dominion governments like the proverbial football".
He recalls that for decades there was a pitiful lack of educational facilities on reserves, and those that existed were furnished by the churches. These and welfare conditions have improved, but Indians forced off the reserves "by threat of starvation" find no comparable services among whites. For our 111,000 Eskimo, said Professor Morris, we spend more than twice as much as we do for 173,000 Indians. "This in itself is second class citizenship." And we need only recall recent testimony of Eskimo hardship to visualize the lot of the Indians.
With "our first real Indian act" dating only from 1951, Professor Morris says we have "operated on a hit and miss basis": and among his suggestions is research both economic and in the area of inter-personal relations, together with inter-government co-operation at all levels to utilize voluntary resources. "We have for long enough refused to accept any measure of responsibility as individuals for what is in effect the sorest blight on our Canadian conscience."
Those are important words. Two centuries of official bungling and evasion of a great human problem are in the last analysis a reproach on the monumental indifference of the Canadian people. It will in turn be their pressure which will give Indians their rightful heritage of first class citizenship.
As a matter of fact, the press of the country appears to be unanimous in its estimate of the situation. After 200 years since the royal proclamation, which said that no Indian could be dispossessed of his land without the crown's consent, this charter signed in 1763 being a guarantee of equality, these promises have not been fulfilled according to its terms.
I have a copy of another editorial which appeared in the Calgary Herald, which further illustrates, if more illustrations are needed, that the plight of the Indian is a question which concerns all Canadians. I quote:
Canadians are quick to offer advice and gratuitous opinions on racial problems in other countries. Yet Canadians are part of what might be called an unintentional conspiracy to keep the Indians as second class citizens. Canada's record with the native Indian population has some items of merit

to its credit over the years. Unfortunately we have only to look at the Indian population to realize that an entirely new approach is needed, and should be speeded to suit modern conditions.
Mr. Chairman, this is undoubtedly an accurate appraisal of the present status of our Indian population. I do not wish to cast any aspersions, or blame this or any former government. I simply express a belief and desire on the part of the great majority of the Canadian people that the time has arrived for the government of Canada to translate good intentions into a practical reality. I respectfully submit that the question of helping our Indian population is an urgent one and should be dealt with during this session of parliament.


Mr. Hardie:: First of all, may I say that I am wondering why the hon. member for Skeena spent so much of his time dealing with the question of liquor for Indians. I think the big problem which faces the Indian today is the opportunity to earn enough money to make a living so that in the long run he may have enough money left to buy his liquor after he gets his permit.
With regard to what he said about the difficulty experienced by an hon. member in the other place, I personally think that the hon. senator should apply for enfranchisement if he wants to drink liquor. All he needs to do under the terms of the Indian Act is to apply for enfranchisement.
I wish to express my appreciation today for the consideration which the minister has given to the question of destitute rations and to the problem of housing. In past years, as the hon. lady knows, I have been very critical of the meagre rations distributed to Indians who are destitute or who have returned to their homes from tuberculosis hospitals after being cured of T.B. The minister has given us the details with regard to destitute rations, and I wonder if she would be good enough, when she replies, to give us similar details with regard to rehabilitation rations, in particular those rations which are given to people who have returned from tuberculosis hospitals.
In each of the past five years the amount set aside in the estimates for providing Indians with housing, at least in my part of the country, has increased. However, I do not think it has increased at the rate it should have increased if we really intend to impress upon the Indians that we are conscientiously and seriously concerned about their living standards. I think we could well increase a great deal more those estimates, particularly where they concern the Northwest Territories.
I was happy to see that some attention has been paid to the economic development of
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration native Indians. If I understood correctly the minister's statement the other day, it was to the effect that a new division would be established within her department in order to deal with the economic aspect of the development of our Indian people. I am wondering, however, if this new division will have any jurisdiction in the Northwest Territories, and I say this because I heard recently that the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources has carried out a reorganization of their department and have set up a new division in that department known as the welfare division. I understood the minister of northern affairs to say that this new division in his department would look after not only the welfare of Eskimos, as it has done for many years, but also the welfare of Indians, white people and all others in the Northwest Territories.
I notice also that a new section of the department of Northern Affairs and National Resources was set up this year, namely the industrial section. This section involves, I imagine, a duplication of what the department of Indian affairs has done in setting up its new economic development section. I hope the minister will be able to clear up this matter when she replies, and say whether her department will have jurisdiction with regard to the welfare and economic development of Indians in the Northwest Territories or whether this work will be the responsibility of the department of northern affairs.
I wish also at this time to express my appreciation of the very fine work done by the officers of the hon. lady's department in my riding. In recent years we have found these officers coming into my riding in greater numbers, and we are thankful for that, and I am confident they are all very interested in the native people and anxious to bring about changes which would make it possible for Indians to realize a standard of living which could be compared, at least to some extent, with our own. I should like to make a suggestion to the minister with regard to the economic development of our Indian people.
As the minister knows, we have Indian agencies in the Northwest Territories at Yellowknife, at Smith, in Norman and Akla-vik, Hay River and Simpson. Each of these agents has to cover a very large area if they are to get into close contact with the natives and understand the problems of the communities over which they have jurisdiction. I wish to suggest to the minister that
the department should hire works foremen_____
let us call them that-in every settlement in the Northwest Territories where there is an Indian population. The duty of these work foremen would be to guide and give leadership to the Indian people in their economic
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration development. The people appointed should be men who know the conditions in the north, people who have lived in these communities, not someone who has just come out of the University of Toronto with a degree in welfare. The people I have in mind should be practical men who have lived with the Indians and who are interested in doing something to improve their conditions.
A further suggestion I have to make concerns co-operation between the Indians and the works foreman. I think any Indian agent would agree that in my part of the country, at least, the co-operation of the Indian chief of each particular band and settlement is very necessary if the government hopes to "sell" to the Indians a policy designed to raise their living standards and help them advance from their present static condition. The co-operation of the chiefs is very necessary in most cases if the government is to be successful in bringing the Indians out of the depths of poverty. I understand that in some parts of Canada the chiefs have not the same influence over their tribes as they had many years ago. But in the Northwest Territories they still have great influence over their people, and I suggest to the minister that her department should pay the chiefs some sort of salary for working in co-operation with the works foremen to which I have referred and helping to convince his people of the benefits of government policy in the field of economic development.
I also think that in every community there should be provided a tractor with a blade, a sawmill and a powered scow. I will go into this matter in somewhat more detail, pointing out what I think each of these pieces of equipment will or can do in order to help the Indian to place himself in a position where he can at least make a living like any other person in Canada.
At this time I would like to deal with the Great Slave lake area in particular. There are many communities centred around this lake including Yellowknife, Rae, Hay River, Fort Resolution, Rocher River and Snowdrift. Great Slave lake is considered to be the world's greatest source of whitefish and trout but on this lake you see only a handful of Indians working in the industry of commercial fishing. In my opinion many more of these people could be employed in this industry but you cannot say to an Indian, "Here you have this lake; the fish buyers are here so go out and fish." Any commercial fisherman must have a considerable amount of equipment. I suggest to the department that it should set up some sort of loan fund for Indians all around the lake including those people at Fort Providence and Fort Simpson who every fall go up the Mackenzie river into the lake to do their domestic fishing under


which a loan plan could be established. In other words these people could borrow money to equip themselves under the guidance of the works foreman to whom I previously made reference and establish themselves in the profitable business of commercial fishing on Great Slave lake.
Another thing that would be of assistance would be to have the department request the Department of Fisheries to conduct surveys to investigate the various inland lakes such as Lac la Marte to establish whether or not they are suitable for commercial fishing. If, for instance, Lac la Marte was found to be suitable for this purpose a number of our Indian people in the area around Rae, Lac la Marte and Hislop lake could be profitably employed in commercial fishing. I urge the department to take some steps toward supplying these people with guidance and equipment to encourage them to become engaged in useful projects of this type.
A few moments ago I said that every settlement in the district should be supplied with a tractor and other equipment. I appreciate that the first question that will be asked is: What will the Indians do with this equipment? In the Northwest Territories we have vocational training schools. Here the Indians are trained as operators of tractors and other equipment. These trained operators could be used during the early winter before the snow became too deep in hauling out logs cut by other Indians in the bush to supply the people in the area with material for proper housing for themselves. At the present time they tend to construct clapboard or plywood homes under a contract basis. I believe the Indians should be encouraged to haul out their own logs from the bush and build suitable homes for themselves.
The sawmill could square the logs and it could be operated by our native people under direction and guidance. There is no reason why one or two Indians from each settlement could not be trained in sawmill work at the vocational schools.
I also urge that a powered scow be provided at each settlement. Any person who has lived among Indians or dealt with them is aware that when winter comes they are faced with the problem of heating their homes. These people usually live for today with no real thought for tomorrow or the future and so their homes are heated from day to day as it were. If a scow were provided it could mean that those Indians who were unable to obtain salaried employment during the summer months could work in the bush cutting wood and transporting it to the settlements to provide themselves with a supply of firewood for the winter, and also

they could sell wood to those Indians who were gainfully employed on a payroll.
There are other things that could be done. Possibly some land clearing equipment could be provided in areas where there is land suitable for growing vegetables. The men could work the equipment and the women could look after the seeding and weeding and assist with the crops.
At this point I cannot resist telling the committee about a trip I took down the Mackenzie river in 1954 with the then minister of northern affairs and national resources. It was his first trip north after his appointment and of course at every place we visited the civil servants shined up the brass and showed us all the nice things in the north. We eventually arrived at Fort McPherson and were given a wonderful dinner. When we left the dining room the local school teacher invited the minister, the deputy minister and others including myself to see the garden project. We discovered six or seven Indian women pulling weeds in the garden. By the time we arrived there only half the garden had been weeded. The word had gone around that the minister was coming and the garden should be cleaned up quickly and although they had started at it in the morning they had not completed it by the time we arrived. If we had arrived in the morning before the warning had gone out we would have seen nothing but weeds in the garden.
There are, however, Indians in the north who have initiative and who are interested in working. They tell me that garden projects of this kind operated on a community basis is for the birds. They explained that some of them work very hard all summer in the garden and when the fall comes the crop is taken off and shared with the whole community. They said they would rather see the government split up these garden plots into individual acreage. They prefer to work their own plots and take off the produce that is the fruit of their individual labour.


An hon. Member:: That was a C.C.F. policy.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: An hon. member comments that communal gardens were a C.C.F. policy and I agree. I have explained what has been happening under that policy. I hope the department will change its tune on that score and give these people some opportunity for individualism, a goal to work for and a degree of personal initiative.
I have dealt with some of the things we could do to improve the lot of the Indian people. It must be pointed out, however, that the fur industry is still the backbone of the economy of the native people in the Northwest
12, 1959	1875
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Territories. In the past several years fur prices have been so low that in many places it is not worth trapping fur. I appeal to the minister and ask her to see her friend, the Minister of Agriculture, and ask him why we cannot bring fur under the Agricultural Prices Support Act. Everything else that is produced in this country can come under the act. The raspberry growers, the pulpwood cutters, grain grown in eastern Canada, and just about everything that is grown comes under the act. Sheep come under the act. Wool of the sheep comes under the act. Everything from soup to nuts comes under the act. The minister told me last year that even the fur ranchers in Canada who ranch mink and other furs come under this act, but wild fur cannot come under it. I appeal to the minister and I am sure that with her sweet smile she can convince her colleague the Minister of Agriculture that wild fur should come under the act. If she cannot do that, then I would suggest that the department of Indian affairs should start to look at the proposition of putting a floor price under furs, covered by separate legislation, if we have to.
In the past four or five years there have been-and I am sure the director, or any of the officials of the department will agree with this-a number of Indians employed in construction projects at Inuvik, at Fort Smith, at Yellowknife on the road, and so on. The minister mentioned this as a matter of fact in her statement. This year we are in the process of moving the town of Aklavik to its new location. At Fort Smith we are building government houses for civil servants and offices for civil servants. Most of the building that is going on is for civil servants and some Indians are working on those projects. Those construction programs will be over and finished in two years. Ever since we started that construction program I have repeatedly said that we had to look to the future. It is fine and dandy to have Indians on the payroll today and making a half decent living, but the minute that construction is over what are you going to do with the Indian? This is the problem and now is the time to start thinking about it. What are you going to do with the children who are coming out of the vocational training schools that we have built in all parts of the country. This is a problem that requires serious consideration now.
I noticed the minister said we will have placement officers. Have we one in the Northwest Territories? If we have, has any thought been given to what the placement officer is going to do to place Indians if there is nothing for them to do? How are we to encourage native children to take vocational training two or three years from now when their older brothers and sisters have come
1876	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration out of school and are back on the trap line trapping muskrats because there is nothing else for them to do? This is a serious problem. If we do not do some planning now we shall force the native Indians four or five years from now to reject the whole basis of education and he will have reason to do so. He goes into a school and takes a course as a grader operator, an electrician or any sort of operator but when he comes out of school the construction work is finished and he has no job. Then the government asks him to go back on a trap line, something he has never done before. He does not know how to trap; he is useless as far as trapping is concerned. If we do not do some serious thinking now this will happen.
There is an immediate solution at least for those who have been trained in the last few years and for those who are being trained right now. I would suggest that the Department of Transport be notified of every native who is a mechanic or who is able to operate a piece of equipment such as a snow blower, a grader, a tractor and the like, all of which are required, as the committee knows, for the maintenance of airports, with the view of filling all the vacancies from now on with natives who have been through the vocational training courses provided by the government and who I am sure can handle any piece of equipment that is sitting on any airport in the Northwest Territories.
This, I say, is something we should do immediately. We should provide every department of government operating in the country with a list of qualified people whom they might require for their work. I suggest also that before the construction season opens this year the contractors who have been successful in getting contracts at Inuvik, Fort Smith, Hay River, Fort Simpson, Yellowknife, and on all the roads that are going north, be supplied with a similar list. It should be made plain to them that native people are to be employed before they start shipping in carloads of people from the outside. The Northwest Territories has the highest percentage of unemployment in Canada, regardless of what anyone says. When native people who have been told, "you take a vocational training course and you will receive jobs", find themselves out of work during the construction season and find, as I said a moment ago, carloads and aeroplane loads of men being shipped into the north to do jobs they could do, how do you think they feel about it?
I would also suggest that we provide a list to the Imperial Oil company down in Norman Wells and to the transportation companies, both the crown-owned Northern Transportation Company and the Yellowknife Transport, and ask for their co-operation.
[Mr. Hardie.l


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but I must advise him that his time has expired.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, there is one matter coming under this vote upon which I should like to make a few comments. It is one which has not been discussed so far and I admit that it is somewhat complicated. Nonetheless, I hope that the minister will be able to give the committee some information about it. May I say first of all that I am raising this matter at the request of the president of the grand council of the North American Indian brotherhood.
We all recognize that property and civil rights and natural resources come within the jurisdiction of the provinces while Indian affairs come within the jurisdiction of the federal government. However, it has been mentioned to me on a number of occasions and again recently by the grand council of the North American Indian brotherhood that they would like to have a clear exposition from the minister as to how far she feels her responsibility extends in the conduct and direction of Indian affairs having regard to ownership of property and Indian rights within the boundaries of provinces, particularly where no treaty rights are involved.
We all recognize that the minister is faced with problems right now involving the Six Nations Indians and it may be on a somewhat similar basis that I have been asked to raise this matter in the committee at this time. I have been told on many occasions by Indian chiefs in British Columbia that they have never given over their ownership of British Columbia because there is no treaty under which they did so. However, I am not going into that phase of the matter this afternoon.
May I say that I am quite proud that the native Indians of British Columbia should take such interest in whether or not they hold ownership to lands and certain rights in respect of timber or minerals. In recent years they have expressed great interest in the development of the province and great interest particularly in the last year as to who will develop the province. They are primarily interested in the northern part of British Columbia where, as the minister knows, approximately one-fifth of the territory of British Columbia apparently is to be ceded by the Social Credit government of our province to a corporation or group of corporations nominally headed by Axel Wenner-Gren but behind whom we know are the Krupp interests of Germany. The Indians are concerned as to their status in the development of that part of the province under that type of ownership. I believe that the Indians of British Columbia generally

and the grand council of the North American Indian brotherhood are to be congratulated, complimented and commended because of their interest in this matter. Perhaps the best way I can present the matter to the minister and the officers of her department is by doing what I was requested to do by the president of the grand council. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will read the letter I received under date of February 20 on the official letterhead of the brotherhood. It reads in part as follows:
By the provision of section 109 of the B.N.A. Act, the title to the minerals and soil in a province is in the crown, the province and the Indians. Lord Watson in giving judgment for the privy council in the St. Catharines Milling case ruled in part as folows: "There is a third interest, and that interest is the Indian interest, which is capable of being vindicated in competition with the provincial interest."
By that fact and by law, as fortified by the privy council judgment. .. the B.C. Indians have an interest equal to the province but wacky Bennett has not consulted us in giving a big portion of what belongs to us Indians to Axel Wenner-Gren. The reason for this letter is to ask you to speak for us in the House of Commons and ask what kind of a man is this Axel Wenner-Gren? Is he worthy of a man to be allowed into British Columbia? The people of B.C. who are co-owners of what Bennett is going to give him... from the grapevine and the moccasin telegraph this Indian has been told by white people that Wenner-Gren made his millions dealing with human lives.
I say that that statement, Mr. Chairman, is a correct one. I continue:
That during world war II he dealt with the enemy, while also doing business with the allies.
That too is a correct statement, Mr. Chairman. I continue:
Is this gangster, who is worse than Capone, the kind of a man to do business with? What comes after this donation by Bennett may be detrimental to all the people in B.C. We may be enslaved, we must protect our posterity.
This comes from the Indian brotherhood in the interests of British Columbia, their own land. The letter continues:
You can use my name in these allegations because as the chosen leader of my people it is my duty to know and can only find this out through your questions in the parliament of Canada. The query must be directed to all hon. members of the House of Commons, not only the government, because they are the trustees for the Indians of Canada-The land that he is to get is rich in minerals, etc., and will adversely affect the economy of the Indians in that part.
I was asked to raise the matter in the house. That is signed by Andy Pauli, grand chief and president of the North American Indian brotherhood.
I felt it was my responsibility, Mr. Chairman, having received the letter to read it. As I previously stated, it is something to be proud of that our truly native-born Canadian citizens, our native Indians, are concerned
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration about the development of our natural resources, and who develop them. Basically their question is, what power, what influence, what interest has the minister in charge of Indian affairs at this time, to assist them in a situation in which British Columbia is making a deal with a man who, by order in council, was declared a traitor and a person with whom no one could deal during the last war.
I was so interested in the letter and in the other statements made that I checked on the St. Catharines Milling and Lumber Company case, a decision of the privy council, which is to be found in Canadian Constitutional Decisions of the Judicial Committee by Olmsted. I am not going to go into the decision in detail, but I did find some interesting facts in that judgment of the privy council. May I just give a couple of quotations which I feel are important. On page 238, the judgment says:
Documentary evidence was referred to, to show the nature and character of the Indian title. It was contended that the effect of it was to show that from the earliest times the Indians had, and were always recognized as having, a complete proprietary interest, limited by an imperfect power of alienation.
On page 241, we find this:
It is contrary to the spirit of the act to hold that the grant of legislative power-
That is the British North America Act.
-over lands reserved for the Indians carries with it by implication a grant of proprietary right.
I am not going to continue with that, but I do believe sincerely that the North American Indian brotherhood has raised a most interesting, if complicated, question. I do hope that the minister may find it possible, because of her interest in the department over which she exercises jurisdiction, to take note of the situation in British Columbia and the interest of the native Indians of British Columbia in their own proprietary right to develop the resources of the province, who develops them, and perhaps inform the native brotherhood through the medium of what she says in this house as to what their position is and what help they can expect in defending, not only their own hunting and fishing grounds but the natural resources, thereby honouring their ancestors who were the original settlers of that great province.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have two or three questions to ask the minister which I have been directed to ask by some people in Ottawa. Are there any solicitors employed by the department in connection with Indian affairs? If so, what are their salaries and have they passed the necessary examinations to qualify as solicitors in any province of Canada?
1878	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are a few questions I should like to put to the minister before she replies. I do not intend to make a speech, and I am sure she will be relieved to hear that. I think we would all be interested in the most up to date information she has about what is going on on the Six Nations reserve. It did happen, I think it was last night or at any rate very recently, that I was looking at television which I do not very often do. I saw the superintendent of the Six Nations reserve on television. He expressed the view- I am not taking any exception to this or anything of that sort-that the sooner we found out what the people of that reserve really wanted, the better.
As a matter of fact, this had already occurred to me even before I saw this television program. I thought perhaps it would be advisable-I am only putting this forward very tentatively because I think the minister appreciates I have no desire to make any difficulties at all in connection with this matter-to have a plebiscite on the reserve to ascertain whether or not the majority of the Indians want to continue to have an elective council or want to have the restoration of the government of the so-called hereditary chiefs. I know there would be considerable difficulties if the second course happened to be the wish of the people because of the claims that are made by the hereditary chiefs that they are not Canadian citizens and the reserve is not a part of Canada but an independent country.
I have to confess that I do not know whether or not this course has ever been taken or ever been considered. It may be that at one time a decision was made by the courts on this matter. I understand that there was a certain treaty in the time of Sir Frederick Haldimand which had a good deal to do with the status of the reserve and of the Indians living on the reserve. I am wondering if possibly it might be a good idea, by agreement if agreement can be secured, to refer that document and any of the other relevant documents to the supreme court, with a view to getting an authoritative interpretation of them. I imagine there would not be much purpose to be served in doing that unless there was a prior agreement with the parties interested that they would accept an interpretation by the supreme court. It might be impossible to obtain such an agreement.
These two ideas had crossed my mind, and I thought, it would be useful to put them forward. I do not expect the hon. lady to make any particular comment about them. However, I would appreciate it, and I think other members of the committee would, in


view of some of the things that have been happening, if without taking too much time we could be told as much as the hon. lady has in the way of information as to what is occurring.
I am also very much interested in being brought up to date, as I am sure would be other hon. members of the committee, about the progress of the famous expropriations at Caughnawaga. I have spent a good deal of time on, and given a good deal of attention to, this subject, and I am sure the hon. lady has done the same and I would again like to know what the current situation is. While I am not seeking to go underground or anything like that, I would also like to hear a little more about water mains and the sewers, and how they are coming along at Caughnawaga.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I told you all I knew
the other day.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was hoping in the meantime the hon. lady had instructed herself a little more.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I thought I gave a pretty
full answer, but I will see if there is any more information.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be very much
interested as well, although perhaps the hon. lady would rather do it at a later stage, but I will ask the question now, to hear how the scholarship scheme has worked out and to have a brief report on that. I think I can say, with my usual modesty, that I had something to do with starting that scheme, and one is naturally interested in the things one starts oneself. I would also be quite interested in knowing what the experience has been with what I think was the last thing I had anything to do with starting in the Indian affairs branch, and that was the provision of relief in cash instead of in kind. I know I had some little difficulty in persuading some of my colleagues on treasury board that some Indians on selected reserves should be treated like other people with respect to relief, and it was agreed it would only be an experiment. I think it was one of the steps in the right direction which I would like to see taken as fast as people will agree to them and circumstances permit. I am sure the hon. lady will, without even being asked, tell us what the latest progress has been in the integration of the schools; that is to say, in getting Indian children into schools attended by other children in the various provinces.
There may be some other questions which will occur to me later on, but they are the ones which occur to me now.


Mr. Kindi:: Mr. Chairman, I should like
to ask the minister a question about a matter which has arisen on the Indian reserve at Gleichen. The situation there is one of concern as regards the financial difficulty of the Indians on that reserve. A situation has arisen whereby the Indians, who for a number of years have farmed their own land and built up a capital reserve, now find that that capital reserve has diminished and that they are in such financial difficulty that they are unable to farm their own land. Also, consideration is being given to renting that land to the white man. This is a sort of reflection on the administration of that Indian reserve, either through the failure to have farm management men there to assist and supervise the Indians in the proper management of their land, or it could be due to a number of other causes. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the Indians on that reserve now find it necessary to seek jobs off the reserve in order to gain a livelihood. It seems to me that the Indian affairs branch should, in their wisdom and administration of the affairs of that reserve, give careful consideration, if they have not already done so, to the step which is now contemplated.
That land belongs to the Indians, and I submit that before it is leased to the white man and before long term contracts and commitments are made, the Indians' fundamental problems should be probed to the very depths in order to see if by financial help or other arrangement something cannot be done by this government to bring about a situation on that reserve where these Indians can profitably administer and farm their own land.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I wonder if I might briefly pose a couple of questions to the minister. I understand that we make a grant to the national commission on the Indian Canadians. I would like to know how much that is. I cannot find any reference to it in the details, but it is the amount of the grant we make which I want.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: You will find it under the citizenship branch.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Is it listed as an amount?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, it is not. I will find it for you.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Thank you. My other question is this. On October 30 and 31, 1958 there was a provincial conference of Saskatchewan Indian chiefs and councillors held at Fort Qu'Appelle. I would like to take the liberty, if I may, of reading one of the resolutions passed at that conference. One reads:
We, the chiefs and councillors of the association of Saskatchewan Indians, in conference assembled,
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration request the federal government to undertake a detailed social survey of Saskatchewan Indians to among other things
(1)	gather factual information on the conditions prevailing on all reservations;
(2)	make recommendations as to policies and programs designed to provide for the advancement and improvement of Saskatchewan Indians, and
(3)	determine the most effective methods of implementing these programs.
I wonder if the minister would indicate whether the association of Indian chiefs has officially communicated the contents of this resolution, or the import of it, to the minister, and what action has been taken or is contemplated with respect to the suggestions made therein?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, possibly I could try to answer now some of the questions which have been put in the course of this debate. In so doing, may I thank the hon. members for their interest and say to them that all of the constructive suggestions which have been made will certainly be dealt with by this department, and consideration will be given to them. There are two or three very good suggestions which have come out of the debate today. I might say further that the officials of my department are ready and willing at all times to consult with members who wish to bring to them suggestions, or who wish clarification of existing conditions on any of the reserves.
With reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Skeena, perhaps I should answer his last reference first. The resolution from the conference at Fort Qu'Appelle was forwarded to the branch and we have it. There are certain difficulties in the way of proceeding immediately; the matter is under consideration. I might tell him that it took five years from the time of the first consideration of the report now known as the Hawthorn report on the British Columbia Indians before the study was finally undertaken. These things cannot be done overnight. If my memory serves me well it is now something in the nature of two years since the suggestion was first made that a similar study, or something approximating the same kind of study, be made amongst the Indians in Saskatchewan. We are considering the matter. It is the opinion of those who have studied the Hawthorn report that much of the material in that report is of general interest to Indians right across Canada, and we do not wish to duplicate the work which was put into that report. I can assure the hon. member that the matter is under study at the present time. Eventually there will be a study made, but that will depend upon the speed with which we can arrive at terms of reference establishing such a study.
1880	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration The hon. member asked me about salaries for teachers. I have the schedule here, but I say to him that salaries are the same in all the provinces in Canada with respect to the teachers in Indian schools. I do not have in my hand a schedule of the salaries paid by the province of British Columbia. It may be that in some instances the pay scale is a little lower than British Columbia but I can assure the hon. member it is considerably higher than the salaries in some of the other provinces. Where you have one scale across the country there are bound to be differences where some salaries are under the jurisdiction of provincial governments, but we cannot pay higher salaries for teachers in British Columbia teaching in Indian schools than are paid to those teaching in other schools.

I might say that the schedule I should like to place on record in Hansard, with the permission of the committee, does not include isolation benefits which are paid in certain districts. These are in addition to the amounts mentioned.


The Deputy Chairman:: Has the minister permission to place the schedule to which she has referred on record in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Would it be possible for me to peruse this document and make some notes from it at this time?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I shall be glad to send it over to the hon. member. Afterwards we can send it to Hansard.
1958 SALARY SCHEDULE FOR TEACHING STAFF-DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Part 1-Teacher Aides
1	2	3	4	5	6Experience in years	Less than 1 year University	1 year University	2 years University	3 years University	4 years University	5 years UniversityLevels	0	2,000	2,100	2,200	2,300	2,400	2,5001	2,200	2,300	2,400	2,500	2,600	2,7002	2,400	2,500	2,600	2,700	2,800	2,9003	2,600	2,700	2,800	2,900	3,000	3,1004	2,800	2,900	3,000	3,100	3,200	3,3005	3,000	3,100	3,200	3,300	3,400	3,5006	3,200	3,300	3,400	3,500	3,600	3,700
Key:
I-Teachers Aides and Teachers-Based on academic and professional qualifications and teaching; experience teachers of specialist subjects may receive additional $200 per annum for special qualifications (Annual salary paid semi-monthly from September to June).
1^ Community Teachers-Twenty percent in excess amount based on academic and professional qualifications and teaching experience. (Annual salary paid semi-monthly for twelve months).

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration 1958 SALARY SCHEDULE FOR TEACHING STAFF-DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION-Concluded
Part 2-Qualified Teachers
7	8	9	10	11	12	13Experience in years	Jr. Matric + 1 year Teach. Ed. or Recog. Shrt. Course	Sr. Matric + 1 year Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric -h 2 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric + 3 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric + 4 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric -f- 5 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric + 6 years Teacher Ed.Levels	0	2,700	3,000	3,300	3,600	3,900	4,200	4,5001	2,900	3,200	3,500	3,800	4,100	4,400	4,7002	3,100	3,400	3,700	4,000	4,300	4,600	4,9003	3,300	3,600	3,900	4,200	4,500	4,800	51,004	3,500	3,800	4,100	4,400	4,700	5,000	5,3005	3,700	4,000	4,300	4,600	4,900	5,200	5,5006	3,900	4,200	4,500	4,800	5,100	5,400	5,7007	-	4,400	4,700	5,000	5,300	5,600	5,9008	-	4,600	4,900	5,200	5,500	5,800	6,1009	-	4,800	5,100	5,400	5,700	6,000	6,300
Key:
III-	Principals and Assistant Principals-To amount payable in accordance to academic and professional qualifications and teaching experience, add appropriate amount for number of academic classrooms supervised. (Annual salary paid semi-monthly from September to June).
IV-	Community Principals-Twenty percent in excess amount based on academic and professional qualifications and teaching experience and add appropriate amount for number of academic classrooms supervised. (Annual salary paid semi-monthly for twelve months).
I noted what the hon. member had to say with reference to relief payments. I am sure he will agree with me that the schedule now established represents a great improvement over that formerly in effect. I cannot let this opportunity pass without commenting on the fact that last year when this subject was under discussion I maintained, from the available figures, that the average relief payment made was around $14. The hon. member maintained it was $10, and the press of this country picked up that amount and made it known that the amount of relief payments to Indians was $10, despite the fact that I had given a different figure. This year, however, when payments have been increased to a minimum of $22 for the first single adult, the hon. member indicates that this represents a very small increase. He cannot have it both ways. Either his figures last year were wrong or his figures this year are wrong. It must be one or the other. I would point out once again that these figures relate to food only; there are many other things which have to be added to these payments.
The hon. member is quite right in his statement that the sale of liquor to Indians
comes under provincial jurisdiction. However, even before it becomes a matter of provincial jurisdiction the Indians themselves must make their wishes known to the provincial government which in turn makes a request to the federal authorities. Thus I imagine that the statement by the cabinet minister in British Columbia which he read would have reference to the fact that the initiative must come from the Indians if they wish to have the liquor laws changed with regard to the consumption of liquor on the reserves.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Does this provision that the initiative must rest with the Indians themselves form part of the Indian Act?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No. The request must come from the province, but the province naturally does not move until it is sure of what the Indians want.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Is it not true that although the provincial government may request permission, if an opposite request should come from the Indians the government would consider the Indian request before the provincial one?
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Ellen Louks Fairclough: The department is anxious at all times to administer the affairs of the Indians in a manner which will be to their liking and which will further their welfare. Consequently, I think there is some basis for the hon. member's remark.
I might add at this point that during the course of the questions which were asked by the hon. member for Skeena the hon. member for Vancouver East interjected a remark that the government was "a bit touchy" on the liquor question. I can assure the hon. member for Vancouver East that this is not the case at all. This minister is not a bit "touchy" on this subject and when representations are made to the government on this as on all other matters they will be carefully considered and, as the hon. member for Mackenzie River intimated, the wishes of the Indians will be taken into consideration.
The hon. member for Fort William asked whether special consideration could be given to the rehabilitation of tubercular patients in the Thunder bay district. I can assure him that the department will give consideration to this request. It is possible we may be able to establish some sort of centre at the lake-head. We will certainly look into the matter and see what can be done. I am not sure whether I understood the hon. member correctly when he referred to the mothers' allowance, but may I say that Indians do receive mothers' allowances in the province of Ontario. I understood the hon. member to say they did not.


Hubert Badanai: I understood that they were not eligible for the allowance if they lived on the reserves.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That does not matter. They are still eligible.
I should just like to say, further, that the hon. member for Fort William was one of those who has raised a number of points and I can assure him that all the points he raised will receive consideration.
The hon. member for Mackenzie River asked a question about rehabilitation rations. As he knows, these rations are made up on the basis of foods which are needed for the restoration of health. The attitude taken by the department is that they are supplied regardless of cost. It does not matter what the cost is, these rations are available. That is still the policy of the department, with the exception that if the cost of the rations that are being supplied is less than the new cash scale of relief, the cash scale will prevail. It depends on which is greater, the cost of the rehabilitation rations as shown on the schedule or the amount set out as cash relief under the new schedule.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I wonder if the minister would permit me to explain some things that happen which do not always involve her department to any extent. In many cases when an Indian leaves Camsell hospital to return to his home in the Northwest Territories he is not provided with the authorization from the hospital that is necessary in order to obtain from the agent the rehabilitation rations he requires. Even though the agent knows that the Indian has just come from Camsell hospital he is unable to provide him with rehabilitation rations because he lacks authorization from the hospital. Can the minister explain why the present procedure is followed?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the hon. member that it does not sound reasonable. We will look into the matter. It has been left in the past to the discretion of the doctor who releases the Indian to establish his need for special rations but I assure the hon. member we will look into the question.
The hon. member also asked me about the jurisdiction of this department in the Northwest Territories. Indians do come under this department. Where there are existing services in many of the provinces, in some cases the department rents those services rather than setting up duplicate services in those areas. That is true of the Northwest Territories as well as other sections of Canada. It is particularly true in the field of education in the Northwest Territories because, as the hon. member knows, we have an agreement with the northern affairs department to look after education there.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Does the department have a similar agreement with the northern affairs department in respect to the welfare of Indians?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Not at the moment, Mr. Chairman. I do not know whether or not they are planning to make representations to this department to rent their services to us. In any event I can assure the hon. member that this department is handling it at the present time.
I might just say to the hon. member that we found most interesting his suggestion with regard to a works foreman. It is one of the suggestions I referred to as being extremely constructive and useful. We will look into it and I hope something may come out of it.
In reply to the hon. member for Vancouver East I might say that Mr. Andy Pauli is a frequent correspondent of mine; in fact we carry on a rather heavy correspondence. However, I do not appear to have received the letter which Mr. Pauli directed to the hon. member for Vancouver East who read it to the committee today. When requests come to

my desk from Mr. Pauli they are given careful consideration even though sometimes he may not be entirely in accord with my answers. If the lands referred to are Indian reserves of course no one can encroach upon them. If, however, they are not Indian reserves then they come under provincial jurisdiction. That is probably not a specific answer but it is a general one having regard to what I can remember of the letter as the hon. member read it. In any event when we see the letter we shall reply to Mr. Pauli and satisfy him with regard to his problem.
The hon. member for Kootenay West asked me about solicitors in the department. We employ two solicitors, grade 5. One is qualified in Saskatchewan and one in Ontario. The salary range is $7,500 to $8,580. We employ one solicitor, grade 4, qualified in Manitoba whose salary range is $6,840 to $7,860. We have four solicitors, grade 3, of whom three are qualified in New Brunswick and one in Ontario, the salary range being $6,360 to $7,320. We have one officer employed as an administrative officer, grade 2, whose salary range is $5,700 to $6,180 and who is a graduate in law in Ontario. Those are the solicitors employed by the department.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me several questions. Since a great many of them related to education and in view of the fact that the hon. gentleman has been called out of the committee perhaps I could leave those and deal with them when we reach the education vote. Possibly I should defer answering his other questions, too, until we reach the appropriate votes on which they might be answered. The hon. gentleman may have returned to the committee by that time but if he has not returned, Mr. Chairman,
I shall proceed to put the answers on the record.
I was also asked a question by the hon. member for Skeena with reference to the grant to the national commission on Indian Canadians. The sum of $4,000 is provided in the current estimates but, as I said, it comes under the citizenship branch.
The only other question I recall being asked was that raised by the hon. member for Macleod. I should say to him that this is a pretty complicated problem that has developed over the years. I believe that some part of the problem probably arises out of the generosity of the Indians themselves to their brothers. I do not think it is a problem I could deal with in a short space of time in this committee but if the hon. member would like to come to the department we will be glad to give him the full story in so far as we have it. I would also extend this invitation
12, 1959	1883
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to any other hon. members of the committee who have any specific Indian problems, Mr. Chairman.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for her answers and I have just two more questions. I observe that other departments list their solicitors in the details in the estimates book as solicitors but those in this department are listed as administrative officers or some other category. What is the reason for that? My second question is this. Are there any persons in the department doing the work of a solicitor or legal work of any kind without qualifications in Canada?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I can
answer "no" to the last question immediately. If the hon. gentleman will turn to page 145 of the estimates under "Reserves and trusts" he will find the solicitors listed.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I must apologize, Mr. Chairman, I think my eyesight must be failing.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell us if it is the intention of the government to establish the joint committee of this house and the Senate soon? If this proves impossible, does the government intend establishing a royal commission to study the Indian question and bring in at the next session of parliament some fundamental recommendations designed to solve many of the problems that are so apparent in the administration of Indian reserves in western Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am sure on reflection the hon. member would agree with me that you do not get very fast action with royal commissions. It is my hope that the committee which will be set up this year will be able to furnish a great deal of valuable information of a current nature to the department. I hope to present that resolution to the house when we have finished the estimates of the department. It is my hope that we can probably have the personnel of the committee established, with the cooperation of the other parties in the house, so that it could get to work right after the Easter recess; but I can assure him that the matter will be handled with all possible dispatch.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Thank you.


Hubert Badanai: I would like to correct a question I asked of the minister regarding mothers' allowances. Instead of mothers' allowances I meant widows' allowances.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not know what the hon. member means because there is no widows' pensions as such for anyone, either Indians or anyone else, except those which are payable under the Pension Act to the widows of service men.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Hubert Badanai: I understand that the province of Ontario pays a widows' allowance to widows.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am not an authority on provincial law, but I can find out about it for the hon. member.


Mr. Habel:: Mothers' allowance.
Mr. Hardier I think the federal government pays a portion of the provincial widows' allowance. Earlier the hon. member for Fort William referred to mothers' allowance and I am sure that not only the minister but all of us understood it to mean family allowances.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No.
Mr. Hardier I think what he really meant was widows' allowances paid by the provincial government toward which the provincial government pays.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is precisely what I was talking about. It is known as mothers' allowance. It is paid to women who are either separated from their husbands, or are widows and who have dependent children who need assistance and it is strictly on a means test basis. It is payable to Indians and to non-Indians.
Mr. Hardier Is any part of that allowance paid by the federal government?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: All of these matters come under the Department of National Health and Welfare, but I think I am correct in saying that it is purely a provincial matter.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I must express first appreciation for the information which the minister has given in reply to various questions which were posed. Of course, as I did at the last session, as I will do at this session, next session and ad infinitum, I wish her well in her task of dealing with the Indian affairs branch.
The minister was kind enough to send me over the schedule of teachers' salaries in effect in the Indian affairs branch, but I would point out that when I started my earlier remarks the list that I had in my hand had to do with the 1958 salary schedule for the teaching staff. The minister indicated that this was not correct, that there was a revised one. I discontinued my remarks along that line until I could receive the proper schedule. The one she sent me over is exactly the same as the one I was referring to. It is headed, "1958 Salary Schedule for Teaching Staff-Department of Citizenship and Immigration". This is the one I made reference to when I made my earlier remarks. The one the minister sent me has the very same heading. It gives the classification, the levels


of teachers, the various wage rates that are payable to them based on different factors, and so on. They are precisely the same as the one I have.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I apologize if I misled the hon. member. The schedule was effective on April 1, 1958, and I am afraid I did not realize that that was what he had in his hand.


Harold Edward Winch: I can assure the minister on behalf of this group, in view of this discussion, that what appears in the paper as follows is not correct:
Wallace (Mad Bear) Anderson, a Tuscarora from a reserve near Lewiston, N.Y., told the meeting.
"My reaction is this-she can go jump in the lake. She has previously announced she will have nothing to do with us. This is another example of the forked tongue."


Charles Benjamin Howard: In any event, I can return the schedule that the minister was kind enough to send over and it will be printed in Hansard. Originally I did want to make some reference to the difference between the salary structure payable by the department to those teachers as compared with the salary structure payable in the province of British Coliumbia in two or three of the school districts, specifically those which are in the constituency of Skeena, and to show in a general way that there is a difference and that the salaries paid by the Indian affairs branch here are lower than those which are paid in the province of British Columbia.
I might say that while I selected the salary schedules applicable to school districts within the riding of Skeena, I might point out that in so far as the range of salaries is concerned in all of those school districts, it is higher than those listed here. I have no figures available on this but I think the salaries paid by the department to teachers in Indian schools are on a par with the average throughout Canada and are higher than those paid by some of the school districts in some other provinces. I do not know that. The listing, for instance, under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, I take it, is for a teacher with senior matriculation and one year teacher education. I am informed that it is comparable with E.B. in the province of British Columbia, which means a second-year standing in the college of education. It is the same as a senior matriculant with one year's teaching experience.
I make reference to the Queen Charlotte islands school district. Perhaps permission would be granted to include the salary schedules in Hansard also.


Charles Edward Rea: Has the hon. member the permission of the committee to have these salary schedules included in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: The schedules follow:
School District No. 50 (Queen Charlotte)
	1959 Salary Agreement		
Years of			
Experience	E.B.	E.A.	S.C./P.C.0	$3,500	$3,850	$4,2251	3,700	4,050	4,4252	3,900	4,250	4,6253	4,100	4,450	4,8254	4,300	4,650	5,0255	4,500	4,850	5,2256	4,700	5,050	5,4257	4,850	5,250	5,6258	5,000	5,450	5,8259	5,150	10	5,300	School	District No. 55	(Burns	Lake)1959 Salary Agreement	Years of	Experience	E.B.	E.A.	S.C.0	$3,350	$3,650	$4,1501	3,550	3,850	4,3502	3,750	4,050	4,5503	3,950	4,250	4,7504	4,150	4,450	4,9505	4,350	4,650	5,1506	4,550	4,850	5,3507	4,750	5,050	5,5508	4,930	5,250	5,7509	5,110	5,430	5,95010	5,290	5,610	6,150
School District No. 53 (Terrace)
Years of Experience	1959 Salary Agreement E.B. E.A.	P.C.0	$3,425	$3,775	$4,2001	3,605	3,955	4,4102	3,785	4,135	4,6203	3,965	4,315	4,8304	4,145	4,495	5,0405	4,325	4,675	5,2506	4,505	4,855	5,4607	4,685	5,035	5,6708	4,865	5,215	5,8809	5,045	5,395	6,09010	5,250	5,600	6,300With no	years of experience, range 8 of	the Indian	affairs branch	shows	a basic
salary, not taking into account isolation payments or other things which are not taken into account in the ones that I am referring to in British Columbia either, of $3,000 compared with a starting rate for the same grade of teacher, the same number of years experience, in the Queen Charlotte islands, of $3,500, or a difference of $500. In the Burns Lake school district it is $3,350 and in the Terrace school district it is $3,425. The same differences are shown throughout. Generally they range from a difference of $300, $500 to $600 a year as between those paid by the school districts and those paid by the department.
I do not know whether we should accept the condition which exists at the moment or that the salary schedule should be equal throughout all Canada. For instance, under
12. 1959	1885
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration our school system in British Columbia the salary schedules for teachers are not the same in each one of the some 80 school districts. They draw up salary schedules and other conditions, payments and so on, for each school district and they vary. As the committee will notice, they vary between Queen Charlotte islands and Terrace to the extent of about $75 a year during the first year. These differences exist between various school districts in the province. I wonder whether any thought has been given to arranging the salaries of teachers in the Indian affairs branch so that they will equal the salaries paid to teachers in the various provinces. We may find that in maintaining a uniform salary scale we are paying higher salaries in one province and lower salaries in another province. We all know that income is an incentive to teachers and, as has been suggested by others on other occasions, the Indian affairs branch is not able to draw upon the most capable people in the teaching profession if the salary scales remain lower than the salary scales of various school boards in the different provinces.
I certainly suggest that we attempt as much as possible to maintain equality between the salaries paid to teachers employed by the Indian affairs branch and the salaries paid teachers employed by school boards in the various provinces. I know that this cannot be done in each instance and that salaries cannot be kept equal every day of the year because changes take place in school districts and provinces from time to time, but as far as is humanly possible I think we should attempt to maintain the highest level of salaries for teachers in the Indian affairs branch, particularly in view of the fact that their job in teaching native Indian children is more complicated than is the job of teachers of non-Indian children. I hope that the minister will take this suggestion into consideration. I hope that the salary schedules will be revised so as to reflect salaries paid in other parts of the country and so that Indian affairs branch teachers will be placed on a footing as near as possible equal to that of teachers paid by other agencies.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, in all
departments of government civil servants are paid precisely the same regardless of what section of the country they work in with the exception, of course, of northern allowances and things of that nature. Therefore I do not think we can make an exception in the case of teachers. It is true that the salary scales in the provinces of British Columbia and Ontario are probably a little higher than that of the department. In the maritimes
1886	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the department scale is higher and in the other provinces they are just about equal. Therefore they pretty well level out. I can assure the hon. member that the matter of pay scales for teachers is constantly under review and what he has said will be taken into consideration.
Since the hon. member for Bonavista-Twil-lingate has returned, perhaps I might deal with some of the matters he raised. I should like to refer first of all to the situation at the Six Nations reserves. Possibly I had better tell the house what has already become public knowledge since it happened last night after the house rose.
Yesterday on the Six Nations reserve the new Iroquois police, as they style themselves, arrested one of our school teachers, an Indian by the name of George Beaver. They charged him with treason because he had written a letter to a local newspaper criticizing the action of the hereditary chiefs. They incarcerated him in the basement of the council house where they kept him for some time. They finally tried him for treason. I understand they found him guilty and then released him with a warning not to do it again. However, Mr. Chairman, it is my opinion that we must protect Canadian citizens and accordingly I should like to read into the record the telegram which I sent to Joseph Logan, Sr. who has been speaking for the hereditary chiefs. It reads as follows:
Joseph Logan, Esq.,
Ohsweken,
Ontario.
It has been brought to my attention that citizens have been molested and detained by an alleged Indian police force on the Six Nations reserve said to be under the direction of your organization. I am further informed that some of these persons have been subjected to mock trials and in some instances ordered to pay fines.
This type of conduct cannot be tolerated and I must most emphatically advise all those members of the Six Nations participating in and who are responsible for such unlawful conduct that it must cease immediately.
I must further inform you that steps will be taken without delay to restore and maintain peace and order on the Six Nations reserve for the protection and quiet enjoyment of all citizens.
The telegram is signed by the minister. I am not sure whether the hon. member made a suggestion or was thinking out loud, but with respect to his remarks about the proposed plebiscite I may say that is something that has occurred to some of the members of my staff. We have been discussing the matter. I think little would be achieved by proceeding in the heat of the present situation but I draw to his attention also that in any event nothing can be done at the moment because the authority of the hereditary chiefs is being argued at the present


time before the courts in Ontario. Until that matter is settled I think we would be wrong in taking any action.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the hon. lady would allow me to interrupt her for the purpose of obtaining information. How did that case get there? I do not want to say anything about the case but how did it get before the courts? Is my memory failing or is it something that occurred since the hon. lady became minister?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think it was already started when I came into the department. As I understand the situation, and my officials will correct me if I am wrong, the hereditary chiefs challenged the action of the elected council with regard to the sale of a piece of property.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That would have been after my time.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The matter is now before the courts and, of course, we must await the outcome. The hon. member also asked me a question with reference to Caughnawaga. The area expropriated was 1,374.14 acres. The number of individuals entitled to compensation was 217. As of February 24, 1959, settlement has been completed with 198 of them or some 91 per cent and settlements are pending with the other 19. The total amount of compensation paid to individuals as of February 24, 1959, was $2,217,892.20.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Have any of these cases gone into the courts?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, there are none in the courts. I said in the absence of the hon. gentleman that I thought that the rest of his questions had to do with education. Would he like to wait until we reach the education item?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be quite happy to wait until that time. However, another question has been put to me. Perhaps it is a little unfair of me to ask the hon. lady without trying to find out for myself but as she has so much more research staff than I have perhaps she will not mind. It has been represented to me by some Caughnawaga Indians that they are very fearful of this proposed metropolitan Montreal arrangement. They feel Mr. Duplessis is attacking the autonomy of the Caughnawaga reserve. I wonder if the hon. lady knows whether the reserve is to be included in the metropolitan area or definitely excluded?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I can assure the hon. gentleman I have made no changes in the law. As he knows, under the present situation no one can encroach on a reserve, so the Indians are quite safe.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It occurred to me it would, of course, be quite incompetent for the provincial legislature to attempt to legislate a reserve into part of a municipality. I did not think there could be anything in this, but I thought there would not be any harm in asking the question since it had been put to me.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, not at all. As a matter of fact, if my memory serves me well, we did have some correspondence with at least some members of the band in that regard, and gave them that answer.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is another question about Caughnawaga, and that is the question of re-routing the road and re-routing the bridge. Have all problems of that sort been settled with the provincial authorities and with the Indians?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not know that they have been settled. The Indians have objected to any change in the road and so long as their objection stands nothing will be done about it. Unless they can come to an agreement, nothing will be done. I believe that some of the provincial authorities wanted to discuss the matter with them, but they were not even amenable to that suggestion so the department does not intend to take any action on the matter so long as the opinion of the Indians is that they want no change.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There were also some expropriations at St. Regis. Have they all been settled?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The area of the reserve expropriated was 140.3 acres; the number of individuals entitled to compensation, 40. All of the settlements have been completed and the total compensation paid was $184,771.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, that is a happy ending.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I have one very minor question before this item passes. It relates not only to this particular vote, but to every other vote in the book. At the last session I urged that something be done about this, and if I could indicate it to the minister now perhaps she could communicate with the authorities responsible for the compilation of the statistical information in the estimates book. What I am suggesting is this: in the second portion of the book containing the details of the services, would it not be possible to arrange to print in that section the number of the vote, just as it is in the front of the book? We find great difficulty in following exactly what vote we are dealing with in the detailed section.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I wondered if I raised the question at this session, perhaps next session and eventually we will be able to have the vote number printed in the detailed sections of the book.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the hon. member will mention it to the Minister of Finance when his estimates are before the committee, he will be putting it to the proper authority.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Will the hon. lady join me?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I shall be glad to.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady will remember that there was a good deal of debate and a good deal of agitation at one time about the completion of the band lists, particularly in relation to certain happenings in Alberta that were ultimately settled in the courts, as they should have been in the first place. There were, the last time I made inquiries, still a few cases pending and I just wondered if the hon. lady could bring us up to date, and let us know if that job is also completed?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is practically completed, Mr. Chairman. The protests remaining are down to two, and we hope that these will be handled to their satisfaction shortly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are these two persons living on the reserve or not living on the reserve? I would be interested in their history. Perhaps I could find a grievance.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The reason they have not been settled is that we cannot locate them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian agencies-
57. Operation and maintenance. $3,728,028.
Charles Benjamin Howard: In connection with this item, page 144, there is an item about three-quarters of the way down the page, listed as allowances. There is quite a substantial increase in the vote, from $40,000 to $100,000. Would the minister give us information on that?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This results from the revised scale of northern allowances.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I believe the hon. member for Mackenzie River wanted to ask a question, although he does not seem to be in the committee at the moment. He wanted to ask about northern allowances to ascertain whether they were on precisely the same scale in Indian affairs as they are in northern affairs.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, they are precisely the same.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1888	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Reserves and trusts-
59. Operation and maintenance, $367,421.
John Whitney Pickersgill: This is an old favourite of mine, as the minister well knows. Perhaps the minister would like to leave this until we resume at eight o'clock, when she could tell us just where these estates stand. It is one of the most vexing problems, as I found when I was in the department, and I am sure a lot of us hope the situation is improving steadily. I should like to have a fairly detailed report on what the situation is.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think with all the information I have at hand I can manage to give it to the committee before six o'clock. The estates which were concluded in 1956-57 were 1,420; in 1957-58, 1,179; 1958-59-this is just from April to December-the last figure I have is 2,412. Now, in the management of estates opened, in the 1956-57 year we find they were 667; in 1957-58, 702; and in 1958-59, for the same period April to December 31, 508.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Has the hon. lady the global figure for the backlog at present?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: My officials do not have the figures for the backlog at present.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think there are a couple of other questions I should like to ask, so perhaps we could let this stand.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: From the information I gave, the hon. member will realize we are cutting steadily into the backlog.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think it is very encouraging.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: How far we have gone, I could not say at the moment, but I shall try to find out.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Charles Edward Rea: We have been discussing item No. 59. Shall the item carry?


Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to address a few remarks on the first item before it carries. There are a number of items which are of some concern to the Indian people of the Yukon. I want particularly to draw to the hon. minister's attention matters concerning housing, children's aid, welfare payments in isolated areas, education, both schools and hostels, and land. Perhaps I could first refer to the minutes of a meeting held in Whitehorse between the


superintendent of the Yukon agency and five members of the legislative council of the Yukon, as well as Commissioner Collins. At that meeting the main topic of discussion was the matter of welfare payments to Indian people in isolated areas. The following resolution was passed:
Be it resolved, in order that the economic welfare of Old Crow, Ross river and such other areas as may be found necessary at a later date, be better secured, it is desirable to pay to each adult Indian or person living the Indian mode of life, who kills a wolf by means other than poisoning and delivers the pelt to the R.C.M.P., the sum of twenty dollars as a rehabilitation measure for an experimental period of not more than three years. The pelt to remain the property of the person killing the animal.
This matter of welfare I have already discussed with the director of the branch, who has been very helpful and who has given me reason to believe that some sympathy, perhaps, exists in the branch for the people of these rather remote areas, and that they may expect some assistance in this regard.
Another subject which was discussed at this same meeting was the matter of the allotment of land. I would like to call to the attention of the minister the fact that the five members of the legislative council of the Yukon were present at this meeting and all these resolutions were passed unanimously, with the exception of the one concerning the re-establishment of the bounty, and that received unanimous consent with the exception of one voice. This resolution concerning land was passed:
Be it resolved that inasmuch as no treaty exists between the Indians of the Yukon, and the government of Canada, it would seem desirable, with the consent of the Indians of the Yukon, to make some arrangements regarding individual and band land allotments at this time as a measure of security.
This matter of the allotment of land to the Indian people of the Yukon is one which should be of some concern to the minister, as I am sure it is. The time has come when some arrangement has to be made for the Indian people of the Yukon. If it is not the intention of the department to allot tracts of land, which was the normal course followed in other parts of Canada, may I suggest to the minister that consideration be given to setting up band council funds in lieu thereof.
The territorial council at its last session considered these matters, and I have before me a copy of the votes and proceedings of the legislative council which was prepared last year. In debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne, Councillor George Shaw of Dawson said this:
Another matter, Mr. Speaker, that I feel strongly about, is the matter of extermination of predatory

animals, more specifically the wolf. I can quite understand how nature balances the continuity of the different species of animals; however, I do not think that nature always takes into account, in its balancing, the effect that man has created in his need of game animals, either for meat or sport. Accordingly, statistics have proven that caribou are very much decreasing in number; the people who feel the impact of this most severely are the Indian population that subsist primarily on these animals for food and clothing, etc. To assist these people, whose very lives depend on these large herds continuing, I consider it imperative that a bounty be placed on wolves. Such an action without question will substantially deplete the wolves in the area concerned; also will assist the Indian trappers in what is now a most depressed industry.
These remarks of Councillor Shaw may be used to point out the present need for consideration being given to the resolution which was passed at the meeting of December 29, 1958, at Whitehorse. Councillor Shaw brought up another matter at the last session of the legislative council when he discussed the education of young Indian people. In this same debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne, he says:
It is commendable, and I welcome the government's plan, to provide vocational training to the younger Indians; however, it is still necessary that the older members be taken into consideration and assisted in a manner by which they can maintain their self-respect in a type of livelihood with which they are acquainted.
Since the hon. minister assumed office she has caused action to be taken for the construction of a new school at Old Crow. This is extremely commendable. The school is being constructed not only with native materials but with native labour. This will put substantial numbers of breadwinners into this area to work; work which is vitally required at this particular time of the year in view of the fact that in the last year and a half the fur industry has dropped to a new low, thereby severely restricting the range of income which these people have at their disposal. This type of program is recommended for other such projects which are required in other like areas, but in the meantime it is necessary to consider the remoter areas, such as Ross river, and consider the feasibility of following the advice of the legislative council of the Yukon, as well as the commissioner-I may add my own opinion to that-regarding the implementation of these welfare payments in the form of wolf bounties in the remoter areas. This is a new approach to the matter of a wolf bounty. It is not a question of a handout but of a monetary payment in the form of a welfare grant which, at the same time, assists in the control of predatory animals.
I pass on quickly to the matter of children's aid. I believe the hon. minister was presented with a brief by the Southern Yukon
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Children's Aid Society. This is an organization which was formed recently. When I say recently, I should say in the last three or four years. This organization has done more to alleviate suffering and hardship among the infant population in the Yukon than any other organization of which I am aware. This is an organization which until now has been entirely supported by private subscription; that is to say, it has had no connection with the government. A surprising fact is that 74.6 per cent of the cases that were handled by this society during the period January, 1958 to October, 1958 were cases involving Indian children, Indians of white status or halfbreeds. At the moment this organization is gaining support only by private subscription. The brief which was presented by the children's aid society asked for government financial help. I think, Mr. Chairman, this is a matter which deserves the very special consideration of the minister. I simply quote the last paragraph of the brief which was presented in order to show the need for the immediate consideration of the request made by this organization. It reads:
Though we have never previously requested financial aid from the department, the society now has to request an annual grant, despite generous contributions from the public. Our work has increased four-fold, necessitating additional paid help, rental of an office, and many other expenses. Our whole program is expanding and we will need more financial support from the departments of the government we are serving. The amount we are asking is $3,000 annually. A brief has been submitted to the territorial government requesting an increase in our annual grant, and if we fail in our efforts to obtain these, our treasurer reports that we shall be forced to cease to function after May 1959.
I commend this request to the minister's special consideration, because without such aid the society, as it has said, will be forced to discontinue this work. I know that the minister and all hon. members will agree that this is an effort that is deserving of every possible support.
I should like to conclude my remarks by referring to the minutes of a conference of Indian delegates which was held at Whitehorse on June 10, 1958. I believe the director of the branch, who has done such wonderful work in the Yukon in the last two years, was in attendance at that meeting. The Indian delegates who represented their various bands at this meeting brought up matters ranging from housing, education and aid to trappers, to bounties and refrigeration. In fact, the whole field of Indian affairs was covered. Two or three of the outstanding features of the ensuing brief deserve particular consideration.
One refers to the fact that unemployment insurance is not now available to two classes

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration of Indian people in the Yukon, and I assume this also applies elsewhere. The first class of people affected are Indian trappers, and the second are those engaged in forest firefighting duties. The Indian people feel that unemployment insurance should be paid to Indian people who are engaged in trapping and firefighting on the same basis as it is paid to those engaged in fishing. They believe that when trappers or firefighters are out of work they are entitled to receive unemployment insurance.
There is one further matter which is of some importance and which I should like to include as having been among the subjects dealt with, at the meeting on December 29, by the legislators of the territorial council. This concerns the need for an Indian placement officer, and a recommendation to this effect was unanimously supported at that meeting. Again I say that this represents the view of the Commissioner of the territory and of the five members of the Legislative Council of the Yukon, in addition to the heads of the two main branches of the church up there, and many other people. Bishop Coudert who is the bishop of the Roman Catholic church in the Yukon, said specifically that there is a need for a placement officer in the Yukon agency. This particular request was also made by the various Indian people who made up the delegation which attended the meeting last July. Bishop Coudert also stated that there is a need for the Indians and halfbreeds in the Whitehorse area to be provided with additional houses. I know that the minister is making progress in this regard, and I should like to commend her on this work.
Bishop Greenwood of the Anglican church reiterated the need for an Indian placement officer. He said, further, that the care of old and disabled Indian people presented a problem. He also expressed the feeling that steps should be taken in order to permit the inclusion in the bands of some illegitimate children of Indian women born between September 1951 and August 1956 in addition to legally adopted children. This is very important because unless these people are classified as Indians they cannot attend the schools set up specifically for Indian children; they are neither white nor Indian as far as the definition given in the Indian Act is concerned. Unless they fall within the definition given in the act they are denied the right of access to the Indian schools. They are also being denied the right of access to the hostels which are being constructed at the moment in Whitehorse, so

they cannot come into Whitehorse from outlying points and attend the new schools, because they have no place in which to live.
There is a very pressing need for something to be done about this situation. It is something which requires immediate attention. I think this view has been expressed by Commissioner Collins and by others in the Yukon and I would suggest that the minister give this matter every consideration prior to the opening of these new hostels and the school in Whitehorse, because otherwise these children would be denied the educational facilities which are being provided.
One further thing which came out of this meeting last June at which the director was in attendance was a statement by an Indian delegate that more liaison work could be done with regard to the integration of the Indian people into jobs in industry. This, once again, emphasizes the need for the establishment of an Indian placement officer in the Yukon. It seems odd that there should be more government employees concerned with the administration of forests and wild life in the Yukon than are concerned with the welfare of the Indian people. I trust the situation will not continue to be as it has been over the past 30 years.
With regard to the question of freezers there are, I believe, two freezers being built in the Yukon in different locations, but there is need for one in Dawson. Perhaps I could do no better here than quote from the remarks which were made last June at the conference which was held with the chief of the Dawson band. The latter said this absence of freezer facilities was a matter for regret. Apropos of this, an amusing story was told by Chief Charlie Mason. An Indian agent once had locker-freezers built in two places. One was not a place where a freezer was needed. An Indian from a place that needed a freezer locker said, "Why did you build one in that town?" The agent said, "I made a mistake". The Indian said, "I wish you would make a mistake and build one in our place." Dawson natives hope that soon a mistake will be made and a freezer put in Dawson for the native people commented Chief Mason.
I could do no better than conclude with the words of that chief as set out in these minutes:
It would seem that the native wants many things. It is true. He feels he has been robbed of his land and his livelihood and not much has been given in return. He feels that nobody cares much for his adjustment to the new way of life. Some people work and help but they have not the money or the time or the authority to do much. The native needs more understanding. We feel we should have an assistant agent living in Dawson who will be with us from day to day. The agent

could help us and teach us better and make us happier. Our people are getting more and more in number every year. The agent should be able to give us help now before the problems get too big.
Chief Mason continues:
Sometimes the agent says he is too busy in Whitehorse to come to Dawson. The department is like the candidate for parliament who visited Old Crow.
I may say that the chief is not speaking about me here, he is speaking about my then opponent.
He got off the plane. He said to the people "I am sorry I am late. For five days there was bad weather." One of the men said, "That is too bad. Did you have bad weather for the nine years before that?"
Mr. Jutras helps us out a lot and is thinking a great deal about us, but the head of his department should give him authority to put a man in Dawson. For too long the government has been away from us and has not come to help us. Mr. Meek was a good agent too, but he needed more help. So we think it is important to have an agent or representative for the agent in Dawson.
I thank you for listening to this our letter from Dawson natives. We hope that you will consider it with sympathy.
These are not isolated ideas, but are common and shared by all the Indian people of the Yukon. The problems have been stated before and I commend them to the minister for her sympathetic attention.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, in regard to what was said concerning the people at Old Crow by the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat may I say that I am sure he knows these people come under the Indian agency which is in part of my riding and I am sure from now on they will looked after properly and very well.
Before the evening recess the minister replied to some of the suggestions I proposed early in the afternoon. I noted that she said there was some merit in the hiring of works foremen in the various settlements in the north. I wonder if the minister would give an opinion as to some of the other suggestions I made. In particular I should like to have her comments on my suggestion concerning the payment of salaries to Indian chiefs who would work in co-operation with the works foremen in selling government policy to the native Indians. I am sure the minister and the officials of the department realize how valuable it would be to have the co-operation of the chiefs in these settlements when projects are undertaken which are aimed at bringing the Indians out of their present condition into a better world.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt the hon. member. He raised the subject on the first item of this department, No. 56, and I did answer him at that time. True enough, I did not deal with every suggestion
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration he made but I suggest to him that he is now re-hashing an item which has been passed. All of the suggestions he made will be considered by the department.
At this moment, Mr. Chairman, I am uncertain whether we are considering item No. 59 or 60. I thought No. 59 was passed but it appeared to me that the hon. member for the Yukon was directing his remarks entirely to No. 60. Possibly we could straighten that out now.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I do not wish to disagree with the minister or with the Chair but I believe we are considering item No. 59 at the present time.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: We are on item No. 59 at present.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If we are on No. 59, Mr. Chairman, I should like to answer the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I thought we had passed that item but since we are still on it perhaps I could tell the hon. gentleman that we can only estimate the backlog of estates. About three years ago there were approximately 9,000 and it has now been reduced to approximately 5,000. I am expressing this in round figures, of course. The hon. gentleman will understand that it is a little difficult for us to arrive at an exact figure. To do so would require careful review of a large number of old estates. Sometimes when a new estate is opened it in turn reflects upon or has some bearing upon an old estate until a few matters are cleared up concerning the old estate, and so on. While not entirely satisfactory the figures show a rather remarkable improvement over the last three years, let us say.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister is quite
satisfied now that she has a good organization for dealing with this?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: When I was minister I often said I was thoroughly dissatisfied with the situation and I attempted to do a great deal to improve it. I am glad to hear it is working itself out.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sure the hon. member will understand that once you start to improve a thing it snowballs-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am only too happy to take the credit, Mr. Chairman.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I might say it looks very encouraging now. We are on our way to cutting a large slice out of this backlog and I believe over a period of time it will eventually come down to a much smaller figure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1892	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Welfare of Indians-
60. Operation and maintenance, $6,817,932.
Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I feel that some of the questions I asked this afternoon relating to the welfare of Indians have not been answered and I wonder if the minister will consider this an appropriate item under which to comment on those matters?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, at six
o'clock I checked all my notes and I thought I had answered the hon. member in every respect except in a couple of instances where the hon. gentleman raised questions that obviously I could not answer off the cuff. It is necessary to have consultation with the department on some of these matters. I cannot give him an offhand answer on some of these issues. As far as I am aware I have answered every question he posed that could possibly be answered orally.
I wish now to say a few words with respect to the questions raised by the hon. member for the Yukon who made some serious suggestions. I might tell him the matter of unemployment insurance does not come under the jurisdiction of this department and he will have to raise his questions when the estimates of the Department of Labour are called. We are attempting to have placement officers stationed at all places where they may be usefully employed. We are gradually placing them in areas where they have not been placed heretofore and I hope we will get around to the Yukon shortly.
The matter of co-operation with the children's aid society is under active consideration and I think will come to a successful conclusion very shortly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the hon. lady going to tell me about my cash relief, Mr. Chairman?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had dealt with that question early in the afternoon. Perhaps the hon. gentleman would care to repeat his question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. lady has dealt with it, I apologize. I was out of the chamber for a little while and she may have answered it during my absence.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, with all due deference may I say that I was present this afternoon and I cannot recall that the hon. lady commented on several of the suggestions I offered. I should like to have her comments on my proposal with regard to her department supplying to the Department of Transport a list of graduates from vocational training schools who could operate equipment for that and other departments on contract work. I should like to have her speak about my suggestion concerning the payment of a salary to Indian chiefs who 

would work as, shall I say, straw bosses or assistants to the works foremen. I do not recall that she gave an opinion with respect to my proposal about having the Department of Fisheries conduct surveys on inland lakes to see if they are suitable for commercial fishing by Indians. There was also the suggestion about providing equipment to assist Indians wishing to engage in commercial fishing on Great Slave lake and other related questions.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, with respect I submit that I did answer those questions in a general way. The hon. member knows that I cannot answer for other departments of government. I did tell him that every suggestion he made would be very carefully considered. Some of the suggestions he made I am sure he himself in all fairness would not expect me to answer immediately without consultation with my department and without full consideration of the implications of some of the rather drastic ones that he did make. As to some of the suggestions he made, I would ask him to give the department a chance to digest what he has asked and not press for an answer now because, in any event, I cannot give an answer particularly to problems which have interdepartmental implications.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I will take for granted that the minister agreed with what I said. I personally did not think that some of the questions, particularly those in regard to employment by the Department of Transport in the filling of vacancies and so on, were answered but I will look forward to reading Hansard tomorrow to see what the minister did say in this respect.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Possibly I did not answer that particular one, but I can tell the hon. member that this department has circularized to all departments of government a plea to employ Indians wherever possible. We have met with considerable success in a great many parts of the country. I do not think any steps have yet been taken with regard to circularizing subcontractors but we are taking that into consideration. I can assure him that this department is pressing as hard as it can to employ Indians wherever possible in the areas in which they are resident.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I asked this afternoon whether a placement officer would be located in the Northwest Territories.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I answered that really when I was answering the hon. member for the Yukon. We are hopeful of placing officers in those various sections of the country as quickly as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Economic development of Indians-
62. Operation and maintenance including an amount of $5,700 for grants to promote Indian agriculture, handicrafts and economic enterprises generally, $867,272.
John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady knows exactly what I am going to ask her on this item. I want to know whether a successor has yet been appointed to Mr. Mel Jack, and whether she is satisfied with him and what is he doing?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am very sorry to say that there has been no successor appointed as yet. I am most regretful about that. We have held two competitions but, as the hon. member very well knows, this is a position which requires a peculiar kind of specialized background. He was fortunate enough to secure a man who had that kind of background. If he can suggest to me one who can take his place I can assure him that I will treat his suggestion with the greatest consideration because I would like to find someone right at the moment who could really do the job.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I can suggest to the hon. lady that she could not do any better than to get Mr. Jack back. I do not know anybody in the country who is likely to do the job better than he did and I would certainly like to see him back there.


George Harris Hees: I can assure you that he will not be back.


John Whitney Pickersgill: He will be after a while, but not for two or three years. In the meantime, of course, the hon. lady has to get somebody else. I suggest that probably one of the difficulties is that it is very hard to convince the hon. lady's neighbour who sits in the chair next to hers that an adequate salary should be paid for the position.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I would not argue that point with the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, but I think we are agreed on one thing, namely that this is a most difficult post to fill. Now that the hon. member has been answered by the Minister of Transport I think he realizes what I am up against.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Quite; I understand.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, this afternoon the minister said that her department would continue, regardless of what the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources was doing, their setup of industrial and economic welfare in the Northwest Territories. She did say at that time that the Indian affairs division could ask for and pay for services provided by other departments in the north. If she is considering the fact that the Indian affairs division will ask the Department of Northern Affairs and National 66968-9-120
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Resources to take over this responsibility of economic development of Indians in the Northwest Territories I would hope that she would make it very plain to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources that we do not want any long-haired Ph.D.'s. Make it clear to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources that we want practical men hired for these positions, men who will be looking after the welfare and the economic conditions of the Indians in the north, people who have lived with the Indians, know their conditions and are interested in doing something about them, not graduates of the University of Toronto who have never been outside of this so-called inside lavatory age in which we are living, but people who have had some experience in living in the outside lavatory age in which the Indians are living.


An hon. Member:: You are hired.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Education-
64. Administration, operation and maintenance, $17,734,854.
Mr. Speakman:: Mr. Chairman, on this item I would like to do something this evening which nobody appears to have done. I would like to congratulate the minister on the work of her department in education for Indians. I would also like to make just one minor inquiry. In my constituency at the present time a building is almost completed which will contain 166 new classrooms and it is being constructed on the reservation. Many requests have been made for additional school space. I do not see any appropriation set aside either in the minister's estimates or in the estimates of the Department of Public Works. Has any consideration been given to the provision of this additional space on the Hobbema Indian reserve?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, this really comes under item 65. Would the hon. member wait until item 65 is called? In the meantime I could possibly answer the questions put to me this afternoon by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate with reference to the scholarships scheme. I presume he wanted to know what scholarships had been given and to whom. I wonder whether he would be satisfied, rather than have me read off this long list, if I had the list included in Hansard?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be quite happy about that.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Has the minister permission to have the list placed in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The list follows:

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


SCHOLARSHIPS AWARDED TO INDIAN STUDENTS 1958-59
[Stage Direction]
Name of Winner	Type of Scholarship
Joe Louis Bear		Senior Matriculation
Valerie Joy Crawford		Teacher Training...
Cecilia Curotte		Nursing	
Pkilomene Desterres		Teacher Training...
Woodrow Michael Good-	
striker		Vocational Training.
Margaret Theresa Gould..	Nursing	
Lena Johnson		Teacher Training...
	
	
Helen Marie Nanowin. .. .	Nursing	
Joseph James Paupanekis.	Vocational Training.
Alice Elsie Pierre		Vocational Training.
Howard Edwin Staats....	Senior Matriculation
Robert Staats		Vocational Training.
Marcel Vollant		Vocational Training.
Joanne Wallace		Vocational Training.
Course	Educational Institution
Radiological
Technician	 Regina General Hospital (and
Regina College)	
Teacher Training. Hamilton Teachers' College,
Hamilton, Ontario	
Nursing	 St. Mary's Hospital, Montreal
Teacher Training. Ecole Normale de Matane, Matane, Quebec	
Automobile Service Technology. Provincial Institute of Technology and Art, Calgary. ...
Nursing	 St. Rita's School of Nursing,
Sydney, N.S	
Teacher Training. Did not enroll Scholarship withdrawn	
Nursing	 St. Thomas General Hospital,
St. Thomas, Ontario	
Nursing	 St. Boniface School of Nursing,
St. Boniface, Manitoba....
Architectural
Draughtsman... Manitoba Technical Institute,
Winnipeg, Manitoba	
Commercial	 Did not enroll Scholarship
withdrawn	
2nd Year Arts

 University of Toronto	
Electronics	 Hamilton Institute of Technology. Hamilton, Ontario.. Radio Technology Teccart Institute, Quebec, Quebec	
Commercial	 Fredericton Business College,
Fredericton, N.B	
Amount
[Stage Direction]
1,000.00
700.00
500.00
750.00
670.00
500.00
420.00
500.00
750.00
1,000.00
750.00
750.00
650.00
John Whitney Pickersgill: I still hope the minister will say a little about it. Has it been a success?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We think it has been a success. The only thing that bothers me about these scholarships is that there are not enough of them. I feel very strongly on this and I have said to many people in important places that there is a great deal of latent talent among the Indians. It is not only talent for administration, for teaching, for nursing, but also for the arts. I have already taken some initial steps which I might say involve merely an approach to individuals.
My hope is that in the next couple of years I will be able to encourage young people to come forward and demonstrate their talents in these fields. I may say that we have already taken steps within the department to instruct our teachers throughout Canada to be on the lookout for special skills and talents so that these young people may be encouraged in their early school years to develop the talents they have been given in order that they may have the same opportunities as children in non-Indian schools across Canada to secure scholarships and other assistance which will further their advance in the field of their own particular aptitudes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think there was another question I asked the hon. lady about school integration.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh yes. While the officials are looking up the actual figures I might just say that progressively each year more and more Indian students attend non-Indian schools, and we think that the further integration of Indian students with non-Indian students is a progressive step, as I know the hon. member also thought when he was the minister of this department. I do not know whether we have any specific figures which I can give. I find that at the present time there are 8,429 Indian students in non-Indian schools out of a total of 38,836 Indian students. In other words, almost 25 per cent of our Indian students are studying in nonIndian schools.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is that percentage up much from a year ago?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
48. Departmental administration, $774,401.
John Whitney Pickersgill: On item 48 I want to ask the minister a couple of questions I overlooked. I promised the minister I would not

make another speech on this item and I do not intend to but there is one question I had intended to ask. There is a press digest put out by the citizenship branch-I was going to call it a publication but perhaps I should not-of the press in Canada other than English and French. I am sure the hon. lady will not have the information here now but on a later occasion I wonder whether she would table information as to who receives this publication and who is capable of receiving it.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I would be very glad to. We have had quite a call for this particular publication. I am sure the hon. member knows what would be involved in making it available to a great number of people.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not think that would be particularly desirable but it is, of course, prepared through the use of public funds. I know that the hon. lady knows that it has the word "restricted" on it. I suppose that merely means that the circulation is restricted, not that security is involved in it.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Of course, one of the difficulties is that we do not claim that this is a verbatim translation. It is only a description of what our translators think is meant by the article and any extended distribution would have to be more specific than that. At the present time, if my memory serves me well, it is only a mimeographed sheet. There is a limit to the number of copies you can mimeograph. I will be glad to give the hon. member the information and if he has any suggestions to make we will be very glad to consider them.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is one other question. We were rather diverted when we were considering the citizenship item by some discussion that was not perhaps strictly relevant to it, and I therefore failed to ask the hon. lady, who succeeded in scoring off me a little bit on that occasion, if she would be willing to give the assurance that in such cases as I referred to there would not be deportations in the future unless the circumstances were very exceptional indeed.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member knows, one of the problems of the department is that once you break a rule you establish a precedent.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I know that very well.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Where there are humanitarian aspects involved I can assure him that in every case I do a great deal of soul searching about the matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am referring only to those cases where young children who are
66968-9-120J
Supply-Citizenship and, Immigration Canadian citizens are involved. As the hon. lady knows, the number of those cases is very small and I really do not think the precedent there is of any importance whatever.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that even though these children leave the country they are still Canadian children. They are always Canadian children and they are Canadian citizens. They can come back to this country at any time at all. Just how far one goes in condoning the actions of irresponsible parents I do not know. After all, there are people in this country who blight the lives of their children by their own acts. Just how far we go in forgiving parents for their actions because of the fact that they have small children, I do not know. We do not absolve a man from serving his sentence simply because he has children at home. All these things have to be considered. I know the hon. member will realize that I am speaking very much off the cuff without serious consideration of the problem at the moment, but I can assure him that in every one of these cases very serious and soul searching consideration is given.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to say one
more word on the subject. I expressed regret and am very glad to repeat the regret I expressed if in any case I was in fact responsible, as the hon. lady seemed to establish I was-I have not been able to look at the files and I take her word for it-for deporting people who were undoubtedly technically deserving of deportation and thereby exiling Canadian children or causing them to be deserted by their parents. However, I do not think we should do that any longer and, as the hon. lady points out, it is precisely because these children remain Canadian citizens that I think it is all the more important that they should be allowed to grow up in Canada. Whatever the balance of advantage and disadvantage may be, if these children are going to remain Canadian citizens as they are, surely it is more desirable from the point of view of Canada that they should be brought up here in Canada irrespective of what rights there may be in the matter.
As I pointed out, after we established assisted passage loans for dependents, it happened a good many times that we discovered in the department that there were cases of children whose parents had been deported in the 30's because they were on relief, who had been brought up in another country and wanted to come to Canada and could not even get assisted passage loans
1896	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration because, being Canadian citizens, they were not immigrants. Of course, we changed the law and fixed that up.
These cases occur very rarely, as the hon. lady knows. After all, deportation is not a punishment, it is the carrying out of the immigration law. The hon. lady does not conduct trials any more than I did. She reaches an opinion as parliament has asked her to do and deportation should not be regarded as a punishment. It is removing from this country someone whom parliament did not think was desirable as a permanent resident of Canada. I do not question that, on balance, perhaps some of these people are not desirable but if they happen, though undesirable, to be the parents of infant Canadian children who are Canadian citizens it seems to me that the balance should be swung the other way.


Mr. Creslohl:: In speaking of deportation, I should like to ask the minister whether or not there has been any change in the procedure with respect to telling a person ordered deported the reasons for his deportation.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The deportee knows the reasons for his deportation.


Leon David Crestohl: No, the deportee does not know. I have to respectfully differ with the minister. The reasons why he is being deported are not given to the deportee. I should like to draw to the attention of the minister that this is a serious matter and very serious complaints on this subject were made by the present Prime Minister when he sat on this side of the house, and also by the present Minister of Justice. This was one of their basic and most serious charges against the immigration department at that time. They stated that the failure to give reasons to the deportee caused grave injustice.
I should like, for example, to quote the words of the present Minister of Justice as found at page 1158 of Hansard for February 15, 1955. He said:
There is concern and dissatisfaction not only with respect to the over-all policy of the government relative to immigration, which indeed is difficult to determine, but also because of the practices of the government in administering that department, the result of which is to create injustices, hardship, and inequities.
In speaking of a special case he said that the applicant had a right to know the reasons for the refusal to admit his relative. If the minister will permit me-


Ellen Louks Fairclough: May I just interrupt here for a moment, if the hon. member will permit. This is precisely the point I was about to make. He is talking about admissions, which
[Mr. Pickersglll.1

is an entirely different thing from deportation. On deportation, it is true that in some cases the evidence is not spelled out completely but the deportee knows under what section of the act he is being deported.


Leon David Crestohl: I apologize to the minister. There is a difference between not giving reasons to a deportee and not giving reasons why a relative is not admitted into Canada. Has there been a change in the regulations whereby the department tells the relative in Canada, the Canadian citizen who is bringing someone to Canada, the reasons why the relative is not admitted?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, there has been no real change yet, although the matter has been under intensive study ever since this government came into power, but it is a most complicated and difficult problem. I believe that in many of these cases the applicant for admission to the country knows the reason for refusal. In some cases, it is possible to tell the sponsor that the applicant knows the reason and if he will ask the applicant for the reason he can tell him. Sometimes the applicant is not willing to divulge to his sponsor what he knows to be the case, and over that we have very little control.


Leon David Crestohl: I must again respectfully differ with the minister; that is not the fact as I have learned in some cases. I shall again quote the words of the present Minister of Justice as found at page 7162 of Hansard for August 7, 1956, when he made this very direct statement:
I refer, of course, particularly to the refusal of the department to inform prospective immigrants who are rejected of the reasons for their rejection, which practice is carried over in a number of cases to a refusal to inform people who land in Canada and against whom orders for deportation are made of the reasons for those orders. We have said before and we say again that this practice is absolutely unjustified, that it is contrary to the principles of justice upon which this country's system rests.
That was the position taken by the Minister of Justice at that time. I have similar quotations from the Prime Minister. I agree with the statements made by the Minister of Justice and the Prime Minister when they sat in opposition. I want to know if, since they now have the power to remedy these defects which they did not have when they sat in opposition, anything has been done in that direction?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: There are two things I should like to say. First of all, in making these remarks when this party was in opposition the present Minister of Justice did admit in this house that he realized it was a very serious and complex problem. When

he came into the government he was Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration in addition to being Minister of Justice. One of his first acts was to set up a committee to study this matter.
I dealt with this the other day when we were on citizenship-I do not know if the hon. member was in the house at the time- and I did say with regard to establishing judicial or quasi-judicial boards that the question was still being considered. It has been considered by a cabinet committee for some time now but a definite decision had not yet been reached. I can assure my hon. friend it is a matter of great concern to this government. We are considering it carefully and we hope we will arrive at a solution to the problem. However, I am sure that like the Minister of Justice my hon. friend will agree with me that it is not a problem easy of solution.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am pleased to hear the hon. lady say that, and she would not expect me to sit here without saying a word about it. While the Minister of Justice did, on one occasion, after I had made a patient explanation, say that it was a difficult problem, no such admission was ever obtained from the Prime Minister, who used far more extreme language about the inhumanity and the brutality of the administration when I was minister. I am very glad to hear the hon. lady say that under the Prime Minister's leadership the same inhumanity and brutality are still being practised.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That I do not concede.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John Whitney Pickersgill: It is true, just the same.


NATIONAL FILM BOARD
[Stage Direction]
234. Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $4,361,772.
Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, on August 28 last when I presented the estimates of the national film board for the current year, I gave the house figures concerning the distribution activities of the board in 1957-58. These figures appear in the annual report for 1957-58 which I tabled at the opening of this session.
Concerning the distribution of Canadian film abroad, I should like to mention that a senior representative of the national film board recently visited Central and South America. While there he had the opportunity to meet the heads of posts in that area at a meeting which was held when the Secretary of State for External Affairs was in Rio de Janeiro in November. The chairman of the national film board has just told me that as a result of the trip a number of interesting
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration opportunities for the expansion of Canada's information program in Latin America through the distribution of films are being studied in co-operation with the Department of External Affairs.
In the parliamentary appropriation presented for your consideration two-thirds of the increase is required to cover the additional cost of maintaining existing activities and the balance represents the cost of extension of activities and new projects. In December last I had the opportunity of spending a full day at the national film board's operational headquarters in Montreal. I was very much impressed with what I saw and, on behalf of the board, I should like to convey to the members of this house an invitation to visit the Montreal premises. I hope that time may be found during this present session for one or several groups of members to go to Montreal for this purpose.
(Translation):


Mr. Rouleau:: Mr. Chairman, last year I invited the hon. Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mrs. Fairclough) to visit the beautiful and great riding of Dollard at the time she called at the national film board offices. She now tells us tonight that she did come to my constituency to visit those buildings and even kindly asked hon. members to do likewise.
I take this opportunity on my own behalf, as member for Dollard, to invite all hon. members to meet me when they visit the national film board offices. This will give me an opportunity to show them the beauty spots in my riding.
(Text):
Mr. Chairman, the role of the opposition, as I understand it, is to scrutinize, and then scrutinize again, the acts of the government and of the different branches of the government. It is also the role of the opposition, to my mind, to criticize the government when criticism is justified. It is also the duty of the opposition to make suggestions to the government, on occasion suggestions which do not seem to be taken into consideration by the present government.
However, I find myself tonight in the pleasant position of going on record as commending the national film board for the excellent job they are doing. In studying the estimates of the national film board I find no room for criticism. The board, as I said, is doing a very excellent job, and I wish tonight to congratulate the film board commissioner and the members of his staff for their achievements in recent years. In going through the last annual report of the national film board I noticed with satisfaction an increase in production. Eighty more films
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration have been produced, bringing the total of films produced to 225. There is also an increase of 1.5 per cent of film processed; and there also has been an increase in personnel. I have noticed with great satisfaction from the annual report of the national film board that the board has received in the last year 27 awards across the world. This should be a matter of pride not only to the hon. minister responsible for the national film board and the chairman of the board, but also to those who have produced those films and the people of Canada at large. I would ask the hon. minister and the commissioner to express our appreciation to the members of the staff of the board.
During a visit he made to the national film board, His Excellency the Governor General of Canada said:
The national film board does, and must. I feel, play a vital part in making Canadian conscious of their country and what is going on in it.
I am convinced that hon. members of this house will bear me out when I say the board is doing a very excellent job in achieving the aims proclaimed by His Excellency. I am not always in agreement with the hon. lady in her actions or speeches, but I want to praise her tonight for continuing to give her good support to the film board, as was so well done by her predecessor, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.
(Translation):
As I said at the beginning of my remarks, Mr. Chairman, last year I invited the hon. minister to come and visit the constituency of Dollard. I was glad to learn tonight that between the sessions she visited the national film board. Let me extend to her the same invitation this year. I hope she will come back to the national film board, and that I shall have the pleasure of welcoming her personally in the constituency of Dollard. The hon. minister may rest assured that she will not be resquested, as was done elsewhere, to go jump in the lake, because there is no lake in the constituency of Dollard. Besides, all the citizens of the constituency of Dollard, including its representative in the house, have much regard for the hon. minister. And if it should happen that, during the hon. minister's visit to Brant'ord, she was thrown into the lake, I would be one of the first to go to her rescue, as I would be one of the first to make sure she is quite alive, so that she might look after her department. But, Mr. Chairman, I would also be the first to keep putting questions to her about the administration of her department. And while I am on the subject I should like to ask a few questions in connection with the administration of the national film board.

During the dispute, which was fortunately settled recently, between C.B.C. producers and the C.B.C., television fare throughout the strike consisted of films, produced here and there, which were purchased by the C.B.C. French network, to be shown later to the people of Canada. 1 do not know how many films were bought from the national film board, so I should like to ask her: how many films were bought from the national film board?
The national film board has produced some excellent French films and I would ask the minister if the necessary steps were taken to sell as many films as possible to the C.B.C. so they could be shown over its French network.
I was saying a moment ago that I do not always agree with the actions and statements of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I had occasion, a few weeks ago, to voice a vigorous protest against a speech the hon. lady made in Toronto, in which she said that our national anthem is not "O Canada".
(Text):


Mr. Johnson:: On a point of order. (Translation):


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member will arm himself with patience, he will see that I am perfectly right, and also in order, because I want to suggest to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration that she ask the directors of the national film board to do whatever is required to produce a film about our national anthem "O Canada". (Text):


Mr. Nesbitt:: Mr. Chairman, I just have a brief question I would like to put to the hon. minister. About two years ago when these estimates were before the house I raised the question of the possibility of the national film board filming a play called "Patriots", written by a prominent Canadian author, Judge Eric Cross of Woodstock. I might say the play is required reading in the public schools of Ontario, and it concerns the period in Canadian history from 1837 to 1848. It is a remarkable play in many ways, chiefly because it is historically accurate and it is also very good theatre. You do not often find this combination in many historical plays. At that time the then minister said he would recommend my suggestion to the national film board. I believe a year later I again raised the question, and I understand at that time that negotiations had been going on with Judge Cross for the purpose of producing the play. Since then I have not heard very much about it, and I was wondering if the hon.

minister could tell us whether they are going to produce it, or what the state of things is in this matter.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words on this item. First of all, I give my support to the words of commendation for the work being done by the national film board, as expressed by the hon. member for Dollard. I am sure there is a growing recognition and understanding of the work which is being done by the national film board and of its value to Canadians generally, particularly in the production of these very excellent documentary films which are making it possible for Canadians to know Canada much better, both its history and geography, and also making it possible for persons living in other countries to know Canada.
As far as my own constituency is concerned, the film councils are increasing in membership and activity, and undertaking more work every year. I must say to the minister that the work of the district representative of the national film board for the Kootenays, whose headquarters is in Nelson, is very much appreciated by the members of the various film councils and also by people living in isolated and small communities for whom the national film board provides an excellent service. I have some very small and isolated communities in my constituency, and the only films and documentaries which they have the opportunity of seeing are those which have been made available by the national film board. I have been asked by a number of organizations, including some of the churches, the Canadian Legion, and some of the women's institutes, to express appreciation of the work being done by the national film board both in the production of these documentary films and also in the work which is being done in the district and the co-operation received from the representative of the board in the Kootenay area.
I cannot sit down without talking very parochially, as one of the pressmen said of me on one occasion. I intend to make some remarks directly related to some propaganda for the area in which I live. There is a great interest in the Columbia and Kootenay regions in the documentary film which it is proposed to make in this area. I hope that when the minister replies to the questions raised by hon. members she will be able to give some fairly accurate and detailed information as to what the board is proposing in this direction, because this documentary film to be made of the Columbia river basin provides the greatest opportunity the board has ever had in Canada. There we have a region of 40,000 square miles
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration with an unusual history and unusually beautiful scenery-mountains, valleys, lakes and rivers. This region has a most interesting history with respect to early navigation, both by the Hudson's Bay Company, later by the stern wheelers, and still later in connection with the lumber and mining operations in the district. The region has a most interesting history with regard to the development of mining, the development of smelting, and the tremendous growth of the forest industry.
Anyone who looks for them will be able to find some particularly interesting small communities-beautiful small communities located on the Kootenay and Arrow lakes as well as on various parts of the Columbia and Kootenay rivers. These communities would provide charming opportunities for producers of the national film board. I hope, too, that when the producers of the board-those who plan these things-are arranging the content of this film they will consult with the provincial organizations-the British Columbia historical association, to name one-and with the local historical societies. I also suggest that if they wish to get a little colour into the film they should consult with a few people of ancient vintage who live in the Columbia basin and thus get in touch with those fast disappearing "characters" who are required to make any film particularly memorable and striking.
I must repeat that the people of our district are looking forward to the production of this film. All the local organizations are willing to co-operate in any way they can in what, I have no doubt, will turn out to be the greatest and most successful venture ever undertaken by the board in the realm of documentary films in this area.


Mr. McGee:: I am wondering whether the minister will say a few words when she replies about comparative costs in the film industry today. If my impression is correct, it seems to me that when the national film board was first established there were very few criteria available in Canada on which to compare the cost of producing films in various circumstances. Now, however, there are in existence outstanding film companies as the Crawley Film Company, the Fletcher Company and numerous others who are doing important and good work in the film field, and I wonder whether any attempt has been made by the minister to compare the cost to the government and to the taxpayer of the operations of the national film board as compared with the operations of such private companies as I have mentioned.


Leon David Crestohl: I wonder whether the minister, when she rises to reply, could inform the committee to what extent documentary
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration films of Canada are in the possession of our missions abroad. Some days ago, at a meeting of the commonwealth parliamentary association, we were shown some beautiful films of life in Australia and we are to be shown another one shortly about Africa. These films from other countries, shown by their missions to parliamentarians in Canada do make an impression, and I should like the minister to say to what extent Canada is doing the same thing through our own missions abroad. Such films would, I am sure, prove of great value to our country and perform an important service.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the minister rises there is one question I should like her to answer. Could she tell the committee what has happened to a film which was made on the United Nations Emergency Force by the film board in co-operation, I believe, with the United Nations?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Perhaps I could answer some of these questions. In the first place, may I thank all those hon. members who have paid compliments to the film board, to its staff, and in some cases even to the minister.
I should like first of all to answer the question put to me by the hon. member for Dollard and tell him that during the recent strike of some employees of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation the film board not only made no effort at all to sell films to the C.B.C. but, figuratively "bent over backward" in order not to become involved in the difficulties which had arisen. The only films which were sold to the C.B.C. in that period were those in respect of which there were existing contracts on a continuing basis. In all other respects the film board tried to avoid becoming involved in this dispute.
The hon. member for Oxford asked me a question relating to the play written by Judge Cross. I am sorry, but we do not have any specific information with reference to this. My officials are unfamiliar with it. However, I can tell the hon. member that a historical series has been started and that the first film will be completed in a few weeks. The subject is Lord Elgin.
I have some good news also for the hon. member for Kootenay West, namely that the cost of the script and of the necessary research in connection with the film to be made in his area has been included in this year's estimates. We hope that all the research will be completed this year, and the script written. We hope to have the film in the estimates for 1960-61. I can also assure him of something I imagine he already knows, that is, that the producers and the staff of the film board are very resourceful


people, and I am sure they will find most of the colourful figures in the hon. member's district. It might even be possible that they will call on the hon. member himself, though I can hold out no real hope that he will appear in the finished product.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The hon. member for York-Scarborough asked me a question with respect to comparative costs, and I can tell him now that the film board at all times carries on a policy of comparing costs as between operators in Canada from whom quotations are received and the board's own costs. This is a problem with respect to various departments of government. In some cases a department of government will ask for a film to be produced by a specific producer in which event arrangements are made to have it produced. In other cases for the purpose of establishing costs, if producers wish to present their costs they are compared with the costs of the department. There is a constant study going on with regard to comparative costs. If the hon. member is interested in any specific case I am sure we could supply him with the information if he would apply to the department.
The hon. member for Cartier asked with reference to the films that are shown at our missions abroad. I should like to refer him to page 36 in the annual report in which there is a record of the number of showings of our films abroad, the countries in which they were shown and the attendance at these showings. It is very illuminating. I do not propose to put the whole table on the record but I might point out that the total number of showings abroad was 213,655 in the fiscal year ended March 31, 1958, and the aggregate attendance was 21,008,919. These are films obtained through our embassies abroad. I have been in a few of the offices of our missions abroad as I am sure the hon. gentleman has and there is a sizable stock of films on Canada there available for showings when opportunities arise.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me about the United Nations film. As the hon. gentleman knows, this film was made by the national film board for the United Nations as a joint venture. As a matter of fact I believe the United Nations was about to send their own people into the field when they realized that the national film board was already on the scene and so they commissioned the film board to make the film. It is in the custody of the United Nations as regards its distribution. I have no information other than that. It has not been released to date and permission has not been procured for its release.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. lady tell us how much the film cost the Canadian taxpayer, if anything, and whether or not any recent efforts have been made to secure the film from the United Nations for distribution in Canada? It seems to me that if it was made by the film board, even if the United Nations is not particularly interested in it, Canadians would very much like to see it. I know I would myself.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I do not think we are in a position to run counter to the wishes of the United Nations with regard to the release of the film. I am not in a position to answer for the Department of External Affairs and I believe that question might more properly be asked of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Certainly we are in no position to distribute the film independently of the wishes of the United Nations in that regard.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I pursue that a little further. Could the hon. lady say if permission was sought and refused at the United Nations or if no steps have been taken in the matter. It seems a rather odd thing that a film made by the national film board of Canada would be censored by the U.N. Since this was one of the undertakings of the film board surely it is something of which we ought to have an account.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That might appear to be so. The cost of the film which was assumed by the film board for its activities was $42,460.71. That is not the total cost because some of it was borne by the United Nations. Application has been made through the Secretary of State for External Affairs to the United Nations for reimbursement of this amount. In the meantime the film does not belong to the film board it belongs to the United Nations and I am afraid it is much more a problem for the Department of External Affairs than for the national film board.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady has much more opportunity of talking to her colleague the Secretary of State for External Affairs than I have as a humble member of the opposition and I wonder if she would be so kind as to speak to the minister about it and ask him if he would not make some effort to see that this film is exhibited in Canada so that the Canadian taxpayers would get some value for this money. In my view that would be the most sensible way of doing things. It seems rather odd that we would have no proprietary interest in a film on whiGh we spent over $42,000.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I should be very glad to speak to my colleague.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Chairman, I was standing behind the curtain and could not help but overhear the subject being discussed. It so happens that about a year ago I was acting as vice-chairman of the Canadian delegation to the general assembly of the United Nations. At that time this matter was discussed not with me but among senior officials of the United Nations. I do not think hon. members of the committee would expect me to divulge names at this time but for information of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate may I comment that it was felt there were certain parts of the film that might possibly cause ruffled feelings among some of the countries concerned and that it might be more advisable in the interests of goodwill and amity among countries of the United Nations if the film were submitted to further editing or released at a later date.
I do not think I need say more at this time. A few members of the Canadian delegation were invited to a showing of the film. I saw the film myself and thought it a splendid one. From the point of view of photography and production it was an excellent film indeed but I would agree with the members of the staff of the secretary general that at the time it would have been unwise, possibly, to release it because, as I believe the hon. gentleman could well imagine, it might have in some countries caused hard feeling-or let me put it this way, it might have rubbed salt in the wounds-after the Suez affair. No doubt it will be released at a future date.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, as everyone knows I have the greatest possible respect for the hon. member for Oxford but I cannot say I have the same respect for the argument he has just made. If the Canadian taxpayers have spent over $42,000 for this film it does not seem to me that because it might injure the susceptibilities of someone else in some other country it should not be exhibited in Canada. I believe the government should either get the money back if this censorship is going to continue or follow the course that I think would be preferable and get some prints of the film to exhibit in Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, on the surface what the hon. gentleman has just said appears to make sense but in the contract which was drawn copyright was vested in United Nations and I am afraid until such time as they give permission for the showing of the film there is not very much we can do. Personally I would like to get back our $42,000 as I am sure the film commissioner would also.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, perhaps if the hon. lady could get back the $42,000 she should apply it on one of these pictures that she seems to get into such difficulties about.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Chairman, I noticed that in the answers to various questions asked by hon. members the minister did not answer one of the questions I put to her. It is possible that she did not fully understand my question or it may be that she did not take it seriously. I shall repeat my question to the minister. I wish to ask her if she is contemplating instructing the board to produce a film based on our national anthem, "O Canada"?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, the minister does not instruct the board.


Guy Rouleau: Can the minister make a suggestion? Is she responsible for the film board?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The minister answers to parliament for the national film board but it is an autonomous body. The minister does not direct the activities.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am afraid the hon. lady has not read the act because when I was administering the act I did read it. She is completely wrong about that. It is quite different from the C.B.C. Under the National Film Board Act the minister is responsible for and directs the activities of the board. I cannot recite the precise language, but if the hon. lady will look at the act she will find that she is fully responsible for all of its activities and has to answer for all of them.
(Translation):


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the minister a question. Would the hon. lady tell us the number of films produced by the national film board in each province during 1958? I just want the total for each province.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, we do not have those figures here. We shall be glad to make them available to the hon. member tomorrow.


Mr. Richard (Ottawa East):: Mr. Chairman, I listened with a great deal of interest to all of the remarks and I think it is well to heap congratulations on the board, and I must say that as one of those humble citizens who has to stay home with the children at nights I find the films of the national film board most educational and as interesting as any others that are shown. What prompted me to rise was the fact that some hon. members made suggestions as to the type of films which should be produced and shown.
As a humble citizen of the city of Ottawa I am aware of the fact that we spend a great deal on the national capital plan and on publicizing our capital. I believe at this time the minister-and I think she has the authority to do this-could suggest to the


film board that we should have a full-length film about our capital, about its origin, about its people from the days of Bytown to date, not a short but something active. I think that that type of film would appeal to the whole of Canada and would be of much greater value in publicizing our capital than anything else we have produced to date. This is a short story and I do not think it is compromising. I think all hon. members will realize that there is no more beautiful city than Ottawa because it is the city of everybody in this house. If it is not better it is because we have not all put our shoulders to the wheel. Let us all get together and get a real full-length film of the history of the capital and when it is produced show it everywhere.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think the hon. member has just put his finger on the crux of the problem with regard to instructions, suggestions, policy and so on. I shall be very glad to pass his suggestions along to the film board but, as I said before, I do not have the power to instruct the film board to make any specific film and I know that was not what the hon. member asked me to do. The act, which I have in my hand now, says that the minister shall control and direct the operations. For over-all policy that is true, but for the actual process of producing this and that the minister does not interfere. I will be glad to make the suggestions.


Jean-Thomas Richard: I know that at least the minister's ears are sympathetic and I also know that in this very room at least there are strangers who have ears and who will also listen to what I have said.


Guy Rouleau: In the light of the answer given to the hon. member for Ottawa East, would the minister be ready to pass along to members of the board my suggestions concerning a film based on "O Canada" as our national anthem?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sure I do not need to assure the hon. member for Dollard that the ears of the officials are always open to suggestions.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Chairman, I notice that the minister seems very favourably disposed and seems prepared to give earnest consideration to the requests of the members for Dollard (Mr. Rouleau) and Ottawa East (Mr. Richard). I would also like to suggest that our distinctive flag be shown when the film just mentioned by the member of Ottawa East is produced.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I have a suggestion to make to the national film board authorities. I want to ask them if it would

be possible to produce a film showing the work done on the St. Lawrence seaway, and to be sure not to forget the locks on the Welland canal.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
236. Administration, operation and maintenance, including grants as detailed in the estimates, $879,640.
Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the Leader of the Opposition will permit me, I have a short statement I would like to make with reference to the national gallery.
It has been known since the spring of 1955 that the national gallery would move to the Lome building some time during 1959. It is now confirmed that the move will take place on or about September 30.
The move to the new building will have a number of important results in terms of services to the public, both Canadian and tourist. All of the important works in the collection will be on public view; there will be space, at last, to show and properly to house the print and drawing collection, which is one of the finest in terms of quality in North America; there will be sufficient room to show a reasonable proportion of the war collections; all the important works in the sculpture collection, which is a small one, will be on view. We will have our own auditorium and we will be able to present a greatly increased and far more systematic program of public lectures, film programs, and so forth. There will be sufficient space for the scientific and conservation laboratory to develop and expand into a truly national service; the design centre will return to its old site at the corner of Albert and Slater; the library and photographic library service will have sufficient space for these services to operate at a level worthy of a national gallery; the workshop area in the double basement will allow the extension and travelling exhibition services to operate with proper efficiency. Perhaps the greatest gain of all is that special exhibitions can be mounted without displacing the permanent collection.
The prospect of the move to a new building has affected the work and program of the gallery profoundly over the past four years. The staff has been slowly increased- it is now almost double what it was in 1955- as people could be found and trained for both the increased curatorial work which will result from a much greater proportion of the national collection being on public view and also to deal with a greatly expanded extension program serving some 120 centres across the country.
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Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, the committee, I think, will have learned with satisfaction of the progress made in the transfer of the gallery to its new building, a project which was initiated, as the minister knows, some few years ago before she was so happily in charge of the department.
While I congratulate the minister on that progress report, I am afraid I cannot congratulate her in regard to a matter which I wish to bring up at this time, undoubtedly not to her surprise, and which is concerned with the possible purchase or negotiations for the purchase of a picture for the gallery, a Breughel.
I think I should begin by pointing out to the committee that I believe the minister was not in charge of the department after the change of government when negotiations for the purchase of this picture began, and therefore she does not have any direct responsibility perhaps for the sorry, unhappy ending of these negotiations. I have had the opportunity of making some investigation into this matter and, as I have just said, it is a confused, unhappy situation which brings no credit to the government and which, on the contrary, has resulted in a good deal of discredit to the government and to the name of Canada in those circles which are concerned with art matters.
What I am dealing with is not the desirability or otherwise of spending a large sum of money at this time for the purchase of a picture, however rare and beautiful that picture may be. The question at issue is the way in which this matter was handled or rather mishandled, as I see it, by the government. The reply by the minister, to be found on page 1364 of Hansard for February 25, to a question put on the order paper by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate concerning this matter certainly does not mitigate the complaint that we have to make with regard to the way the matter was dealt with.
If I am inaccurate in giving my account of these negotiations no doubt the minister, who has the records at her disposal, will correct me. As I understand the situation, the first contact between a representative of the gallery and the agent for the owner of the picture, a landscape by Breughel, was made on January 4, 1957, when the gallery became interested in what perhaps is one of the finest pictures of its kind in the world and one of the very few pictures of this artistic value which was open for purchase. I believe that in January of 1957 a value of approximately $500,000 was placed on the picture by the European owner.
A good many months later, on October 22, 1957, after the election of that year, I believe
1904	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the owner of the picture or the agent of the owner was informed that the trustees of the national gallery, who would naturally have to pass on any purchase of a picture of this kind or any other kind, were interested and I believe the director was authorized at that time to pursue the matter further and no doubt report back. I am informed that in October of 1957 the amount involved was far beyond the appropriation of the national gallery.
However, in December, 1957, the officers of the gallery, no doubt with authority, pursued the question of price with the owner or the agent of the owner of the picture. I am informed that in January, 1958 the agent for the owner of the picture was told that the trustees of the national gallery of Canada had unanimously expressed the intention to acquire this painting if negotiations could be satisfactorily concluded, that negotiations then began with the owner or agent on the question of price and that late in January, 1958 the owner was then informed that there would be a delay because of the political situation in Canada and the approach of an election and nothing could be worked out very quickly on that account.
But in February the agent did learn that the trustees were pursuing the matter of the purchase and that question was before the government at that time for a definite opinion on whether or not the picture should be bought. Then, toward the end of April the owner or agent was informed that the trustees of the national gallery had agreed on a figure which, if other aspects of the matter could be cleared up, might be offered to the owner, that figure being $350,000, well below the amount I have quoted as being the value placed on the picture some time earlier by the owner. It was considerably less than that earlier value.
I have already referred to the answer given by the minister to the question asked in the house. As found on page 1364 of Hansard the minister made this reply:
-the board of trustees of the national gallery had asked-
Presumably had asked the government.
-for "authorization to negotiate for the purchase of the Breughel owned by Baron von Polnitz". At the same time the trustees asserted that the necessary funds had been appropriated and were available for the purchase. This statement was confirmed by the director of the gallery.
I gather from that that the government got their information as to the availability of funds for this picture not from any treasury board authority, not from the Department of Finance but from the officers of the national gallery, from the director and trustees of the national gallery. Having received their


information not from treasury board but from the trustees and the director of the national gallery, according to the answer to this question, that money was available, on the basis of that information the cabinet on May 2 authorized the Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to give permission to the director to proceed accordingly. Apparently, by that it meant to proceed with the negotiations for the purchase of the picture.
I am informed, Mr. Chairman, that on the other end of the deal a very different understanding prevailed. I am informed that the agent for the owner was told by the director of the gallery that he was authorized, not merely to negotiate as stated in the answer to this question but to make an offer of $350,000 for this picture, presumably on the understanding that this money was available, on the basis of information secured from the gallery itself and not from the treasury board or the Department of Finance or the other authorities of government which might be expected to know.
He was authorized to make an offer, authorized by the government to make an offer of this amount without any strings attached, with payment to be made on delivery of the picture sometime after May 12. The agent was asked, as a matter of urgency, to get a reply from the owner. He got in touch with the owner on May 3 and the owner assumed that this was an offer made in good faith, a valid offer, without any strings attached. The owner accepted the offer and the agent wired the director of the gallery accordingly and requested, I am informed, written confirmation.
Then on May 5 the director of the gallery told the agent that he would send a purchase contract in a few days and payment would be made. There would be a little delay in making payment because it would have to wait until after parliament convened, but that would be a mere formality. Then three days later the director, after all these negotiations had been completed, informed the agent that there would be difficulty in regard to the financing of this picture because the cabinet had authorized this firm offer on the understanding that the money was readily available from some fund which was in existence for the purchase of pictures from the Liechtenstein collection. Now they discovered, after this firm offer had been made, that there was no such money readily available from that fund. The agent was informed that it was hoped this difficulty would soon be cleared up and the contract could be signed.

It was not until four or five days after that, on May 12 or May 13, that finally the agent for the owner of this picture was able to see the minister concerned, and the minister then explained that this was all very unfortunate; that there had been a misunderstanding; that the money which was thought to be available was not available and therefore the deal, if I may put it this way, was off and no purchase would be made.
Now, Mr. Chairman, that, according to my information, is an account of the events leading up to the decision of the government, first to authorize the firm offer and eventually to withdraw that firm offer and tell the owner of the picture that the deal was off. Perhaps in the present circumstances it was a very wise decision not to spend the money for the picture at this time-I am not qualified to judge-but surely, the way this was done reflects no credit on anybody concerned with it. I am sure it has given Canada a very bad name in circles which deal in art matters. Perhaps this may not be of any immediate importance to Canadians but it will do Canada no good in future when we wish to add valuable pictures to our national gallery.
Perhaps I could complete this sorry record of mishandling by asking the minister, who would no doubt wish to reply to what I have said, whether at any time the owner has, since this date I have mentioned of May 13, asked for an interview with the Prime Minister or any minister to get an explanation why this matter was handled in this way? Has the minister any other information she could give to us about this matter which, as I have already said and I repeat, was an unfortunate example of confusion, fumbling, bumbling and mishandling.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: May I preface my remarks by saying I have no apology to make for the action of the government with regard to this particular matter. The Leader of the Opposition has seen fit to read into the record his own assumptions with respect to what might have taken place in the negotiations for the purchase of the Breughel. I made my statement in the house, as he has said, on February 25, after due consideration. I should like to quote the last two paragraphs of that statement in which I said:
It is clear that no authority existed to make a firm offer or enter into a contract for this purchase by the national gallery or the government of Canada or anyone on its or their behalf. The Financial Administration Act specifically requires that there be an appropriation provided by parliament for the purpose before a contract can be made.
It is reiterated that the authority asked for was to negotiate. Although granted in the first instance this was immediately revoked as soon as the lack of appropriation was revealed.
Business of the House
The Leader of the Opposition has been at some pains to castigate the government for its lack of knowledge of what funds had been appropriated. But the Leader of the Opposition has been a minister of the crown as well as a deputy minister, and I think he knows that the minister relies upon information which is given to him by his officials.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I also know that the minister takes responsibility for all acts of his officials.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is all well and good; then, is the Leader of the Opposition suggesting to me now that he is castigating the government or is he casting reflections upon the director of the national gallery or upon the board of trustees?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will answer that question. I am casting reflections upon the government which must take the responsibility for the way these negotiations were conducted. Perhaps the minister, if she thinks my information is wrong, will table all the correspondence in connection with this matter, all the letters, telegrams, records of telephone calls and any material which will throw any light on this situation?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the Leader of the Opposition wishes to request in specific terms what he requires to be tabled we will be glad to look into it. I would say to him that because of his long experience in government, both as a civil servant and as a minister of the crown, he knows very well that the government has no power to spend funds which have not been appropriated.


Lester Bowles Pearson: They should find that out.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister should know that before making any commitments.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: There was no appropriation and, as the Leader of the Opposition stated, this did not happen during my term of office. I will say that I would not condone the expenditure of funds and I would not ask parliament to provide funds to cover up a fiasco like this.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I call it ten o'clock?
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the leader of the house what the business will be for as much of next week as he can forecast now?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, for tomorrow first of all.

Business of the House Mr. Green: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we shall continue with the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and then take those of the Department of Agriculture. On Monday there will be a motion to go into supply. On Wednesday we are asking for interim supply, and there will also probably be supplementary estimates to be considered at that time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is that all that is con. templated for Wednesday?


Mr. Green:: Judging by the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate I contemplate a little trouble.
It being five minutes after ten o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.



ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Howard: 1.	Pursuant to section 113(1) of the Indian Act, have any agreements for the education of Indian children been entered into with (a) government of a province; (b) the commissioner of the Northwest Territories; (c) the commissioner of the Yukon Territory; (d) public or separate school boards; (e) religious or charitable organizations?
2.	If so, with what provinces, persons or organizations?
3.	With respect to each such agreement, has any contribution towards the capital cost of schools been (a) authorized; (b) paid, and if so, how much in each case and what percentage does this represent of the total capital cost?
4.	With respect to each such agreement, has any arrangement been made for the payment of tuition fees on behalf of Indian children? If so, what is the monthly or annual per capita payment in each case?
Answer by: Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):
1.	(a) Yes, (b) Yes, (c) Yes, (d) Yes, (e) Yes.
2.	The answer to this question has been provided in the answer to question 3 below.
3	and 4. Agreements with the following authorities have been completed:
The board of school trustees, district No. 70, Alberni, B.C.-Two agreements: federal government contribution, $25,264.29; percentage of total capital cost, 14 per cent; federal government contribution, $112,475.66; percentage of total capital cost, 18 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 73, Alert Bay, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $80,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 31 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, Joan and Phyllis township area public school district, Bear Island, Ontario.-Federal government contribution, $1,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, unknown; tuition fees, no billing received to date.
The board of school trustees, district No. 49 (Ocean Falls), Bella Coola, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $65,207.73; percentage of total capital cost,
73.5	per cent; Federal government contribution, $37,723.57; percentage of total capital cost, 56.6 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Board of school trustees, district No. 72 (Campbell River), Campbell River, B.C.- Federal government contribution, $18,728.00; percentage of total capital cost, 3 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
Questions
The board of school trustees, district No. 2264 (Churchill), Churchill, Manitoba.- Federal government contribution, $27,963.50; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of Bathurst, Dalhousie, N.B.-Federal government contribution, $32,510.24; percentage of total capital cost, 9 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $5.00.
Dauphin-Ochre school board, Dauphin, Manitoba.-Federal government contribution, $75,252.51; percentage of total capital cost,
33.3	per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
Commissioner of the Yukon Territory, Dawson, Yukon-Federal government contribution, $40,826.00; percentage of total capital cost, 15.4 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $25.00.
The board of school trustees of S.S. No. 5 Lash school board, Emo, Ontario.-Federal government contribution, $19,896.47; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $8.50.
The school board of the parish of Escou-mains, Escoumains, Quebec.-Federal government contribution, $18,900.00; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Fort Frances separate school board, Fort Frances, Ontario.-Federal government contribution, $58,936.55; percentage of total capital cost, 79 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $13.88.
The board of school trustees, district No. 53 (Terrace), Hazelton, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $73,-
000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 56 per cent; Federal government contribution, $53,697.00; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 49 (Ocean Falls), Hagensborg, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $18,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; Federal government contribution, $25,563.50; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees of the township school area of Otonabee, Hiawatha, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $9,142.85; percentage of total capital cost, 11 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The Jasper Place separate school board, Jasper Place, Alberta.-Federal government contribution, $53,369.87; percentage of total capital cost, 15 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $20.00.
Government of the province of Saskatchewan, Lac la Ronge, Saskatchewan-Federal government contribution, $86,108.03; percentage of total capital cost, 60 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $17.00.

Questions
The board of school trustees, district No. 30 (Ashcroft), Lytton, B.C.-Three agreements: Federal government contribution, $742.50; percentage of total capital cost, 45 per cent; Federal government contribution, $42,745.59; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; Federal government contribution, $28,596.76; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Lakefield public school board, Lake-field, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $40,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees, no billing received to date.
The board of school trustees, district No. 50 (Queen Charlotte), Masset, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $25,918.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Protestant school commission, Mani-waki, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $10,633.00; percentage of total capital cost, 16.6 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $17.00.
The Roman Catholic school commission, Maniwaki, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $114,665.59; percentage of total capital cost, 33 J per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $12.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 68 (Nanaimo), Nanaimo, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $37,229.21; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Roman Catholic episcopal corporation of Vancouver, North Vancouver, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $80,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 20 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The school board of the parish of Notre Dame du Nord, Notre Dame du Nord, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $59,732.17; percentage of total capital cost, 30 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $20.00.
The public school board of the town of Orillia, Orillia, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $37,335.83; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $136.25.
Oka school board, Oka, Quebec-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $42,000; percentage of total capital cost,
20.5	per cent; federal government contribution, $977.66; percentage of total capital cost, 9 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $9.00.
Parry Sound board of education, Parry Sound, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $19,569.00; percentage of total capital cost, 12 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $131.10.
Government of the province of Manitoba, Pelican Rapids, Manitoba-Three agreements: federal government contribution, $15,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent;
federal government contribution, $3,490.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; federal government contribution, $5,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 10 (Portage la Prairie), Portage la Prairie, Manitoba

Two agreements: federal government contribution, $36,562.50; percentage of total capital cost, 27 per cent; federal government contribution, $30,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The board of school trustees, Prince Albert collegiate, Prince Albert, Saskatchewan-Federal government contribution, $109,037.58; percentage of total capital cost, 21 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 74 (Quatsino), Port Hardy, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $25,000; percentage of total capital cost, 11.36 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 72 (Campbell River), Quadra island, B.C.-[DOT] Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $23,076.00; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; Federal government contribution, $18,770.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees of St. Mary's river school No. 2, Cardston, Alberta-Federal government contribution, $150,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $23.00.
Department of education, Manitoba, South Indian Lake, Manitoba-Federal government contribution, $17,500.00; percentage of total capital cost, 70 per cent; tuition fees (annual) $136.31.
The board of school trustees, district No. 50 (Queen Charlotte), Skidegate, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $35,273.00; percentage of total capital cost,
33.3	per cent; Federal government contribution, $38,803.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
Government of the province of Saskatchewan, Stanley, Saskatchewan-Federal government contribution, $12,500.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $17.00.
Telegraph Creek school district, Telegraph Creek, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $22,177.43; percentage of total capital cost, 55 per cent; Federal government contribution, $12,233.43; percentage of total capital cost, 55 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.

Sarnia board of education, Sarnia, Ontario -Federal government contribution, $54,149.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $179.42.
The board of school trustees of the St. Thomas separate school, Tarentorus, Ontario -Federal government contribution, $45,126; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $77.18.
The Roman Catholic episcopal corporation of Halifax, Truro, N.S.-Federal government contribution, $38,509.05; percentage of total capital cost, 20 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Wallaceburg public school board, Wallaceburg, Ontario-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $40,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; Federal government contribution, $40,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $16.00.
Department of education, Quebec, Winne-way, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $13,613.87 percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees-no billing received to date.
The Roman Catholic corporation of Prince Rupert, B.C.-Five agreements: Burns Lake- Federal government contribution, $119,930.34; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent.
Fort St. James-Federal government contribution, $107,494.68; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent.
Hazelton-Federal government contribution, $35,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 45 per cent.
Smithers-Federal government contribution, $120,668.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent.
Vanderhoof-Federal government contribution, $108,495.00; percentage of total capital cost 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 52 (Prince Rupert), Port Essington, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $1,500.00; percentage of total capital cost, 60 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
Elphinstone consolidated school district, Elphinstone, Manitoba-Federal government contribution, $1,059.59; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
Board of education, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $34,419.67; percentage of total capital cost, 16.6 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $259.62.
Commissioner of the Northwest Territories-Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources provides buildings and pays operating costs.
Questions


NATIONAL MUSEUM
Mr. Argue: What qualities and qualifications are desirable in a director of: (a) the human history branch of the national museum of Canada; (b) the natural history branch of the national museum of Canada?
Answer by: Hon. Alvin Hamilion (Minister of
Northern Affairs and National Resources):
(a) and (b). In addition to good health and personal suitability, the desirable qualities in a director of either branch of the national museum of Canada comprise a sound knowledge of and capacity for management and administration, organizational ability, and capacity to co-ordinate research. Specific qualifications include:	graduation with a
doctor's degree from a university of recognized standing with specialization in one or more of the related fields; extensive experience in one or more of the disciplines involved and an international standing as shown by published results; experience in planning, exhibits and a knowledge of modern museum and public information methods. In the case of a director of the human history branch, it might be expected to find a candidate with specialization and experience in fields or disciplines such as anthropology, ethnology or archaeology. In the case of a director of the natural history branch it might be expected to find a candidate with specialization and experience in fields or disciplines such as geology, minerology, palaeontology, zoology or botany.


CANADIAN HISTORICAL MUSEUM
Mr. Argue: 1.	Did the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences make any recommendations regarding the establishment of a Canadian historical museum, how it should be administered and controlled, and the status of its director?
2.	If so, what was the text of its recommendations?
3.	Have any of these recommendations not been implemented?
4.	If so, for what reason or reasons have they been disregarded?
5.	Have steps been taken to implement any of these recommendations in the near future?
6.	If so, which ones?
Answer by: Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister
of Northern Affairs and National Resources):
1.	Yes.
2.	The text may be found on pages 323 and 324 of the royal commission's report.
3.	Yes.
4.	5, and 6. Recommendations which have been implemented were described in the answer to question No. 188. No decision has yet been taken to implement the other recommendations.

Questions


RADIOACTIVITY TESTING PROGRAM
[Stage Direction]
90 IN MILK
Mr. Marlin (Essex East): 1.	Is the Minister of National Health and Welfare in a position to comment on a newspaper article appearing in the Financial Post, February 28, 1959, alleging that the existing federal radioactivity-testing program is inadequate?
2.	Will the minister give assurance regarding the safety of milk from excessive doses of strontium 90?
Answer by: Hon. J. W. Monleilh (Minister
of National Health and Welfare):
1.	The best evidence available shows that the existing Canadian radioactivity testing program compares most favourably with those of other leading countries in the nuclear field. A study of the report of the United Nations scientific committee on the effects of atomic radiation of August, 1958, confirms this view. Since the beginning of this program in 1955, the Department of National Health and Welfare has built a new radiochemical building in Ottawa, the number of scientific and technical positions has been substantially increased and at this very moment the department is broadening the scope of its investigations to include measurements of radioactivity in rainfall, air and soil. The program is further supported by the recent construction of two whole-body measuring units for the determination of radioactivity in humans. The department has planned to build a third Canadian unit of this type which it considers an essential part of the studies.
The department is keeping abreast of all new scientific developments in this field and to this end the program is kept under constant review.
2.	Excessive levels of strontium 90 have occurred only on nuclear weapon testing sites, of which there is none in Canada. On the basis of findings of the Department of National Health and Welfare there is at present no discernible hazard by strontium 90 contamination of milk.


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY, MONTREAL
Mr. Rouleau: 1. Has the federal government received representations from the provincial authorities or other agencies in the province of Quebec or in the city of St. Laurent, requesting its participation in the
completion of the trans-Canada highway in the northern section of metropolitan Montreal?
2. If so, on what date were the said representations made and by whom?
Answer by: Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister
of Public Works):
1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


CONVERSION LOAN
Mr. Benidickson: What is the explanation of the substantial differences between: (a) the principal amount of the conversion loan bonds as given in the January 1959 Bank of Canada statistical summary; (b) the principal amount for the same loans given in the December 1958 Bank of Canada statistical summary?
Answer by: Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):
The principal amounts of conversion loan bonds given in the December 1958 statistical summary of the Bank of Canada and labelled "preliminary" were the same as those given in the Department of Finance press release of October 21, 1958, covering statistics as of October 14, 1958. The figures were estimates based on reports received directly from authorized agents during the campaign and in the press release were footnoted as "subject to revision on completion of final accounting by issuing agents," The figures in the January statistical summary are based on a near final accounting by issuing agents. Minor adjustments may still be made and the figures are still labelled "preliminary".


CONVERSION LOAN STATISTICS
Mr. Benidickson: In connection with the Canada conversion loan of 1958:
1.	What was the principal amount converted of each of the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth victory loans?
2.	What was the amount of interest accrued to 1 September, 1958, on the bonds of each of such victory loan issues which were so converted?
3.	What was the cash adjustment payable on each of such victory loan issues which were so converted?
Answer by: Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):
(As at February 27, 1959)
5th victory loan 6th victory loan 7 th victory loan 8th victory loan 9th victory loan
1.

[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
[Stage Direction]
48. Departmental administration, $774,401.
Indian affairs branch-
56.	Administration, $680,907.
Indian agencies-
57.	Operation and maintenance, $3,728,028.
58. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,141,130.
Reserves and trusts-
59.	Operation and maintenance, $367,421.
Welfare of Indians-
60.	Operation and maintenance, $6,817,932.
61. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,015,000.
Supply-Items Passed
Economic development of Indians-
62.	Operation and maintenance including an amount of $5,700 for grants to promote Indian agriculture, handicrafts and economic enterprises generally, $867,272.
63. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $213,985.
Education-
64.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $17,734,854.
65. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, including payments under agreements to provide joint educational facilities to Indian pupils, $7,362,500.
66.	Grant to provide additional services to the Indians of British Columbia, $100,000.

[Stage Direction]
234.	Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $4,361,772.
235.	Acquisition of equipment, $193,964.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, March 13, 1959

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. W. Kucherepa (High Park) presented the second report of the standing committee on standing orders and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I inform the house that I have tabled a copy in English of the annual report and statement of accounts of the governor of the Bank of Canada to the Minister of Finance for the year 1958. Copies of this report in English are now available in the distribution office.
I had expected to have a copy of the report in French available for tabling at the same time, but I regret to say that there has been a little delay in that respect. I believe a copy in French will be available for tabling within the next 24 hours, and that copies will be available for distribution among hon. members within the next few days.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I, in the absence through illness of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, make on his behalf an announcement concerning a Canadian aid program in southeast Asia. The announcement is being made simultaneously elsewhere.
For a number of years the United Nations commission for Asia and the Far East has been conducting a series of investigations and studies of the development possibilities of the lower Mekong river basin. The Mekong is one of the great rivers of the world. Its total length is about 2,600 miles, and its length in the lower basin is 1,600 miles. It actually rises in southern China but for most of its course it flows through or between
Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and South Viet Nam. The economic health and the political stability and independence of these countries are in large measure related to this great river.
The development of the lower Mekong offers great economic benefits to the four riparian states and, indeed, to the region as a whole, in terms of flood control, irrigation, hydroelectric power and improved navigation. The realization of these benefits, however, is still many years away. Some preliminary planning and survey work has been done but further progress cannot be made without first obtaining more reliable and detailed data on the basin. The development possibilities are so encouraging that the United States, New Zealand, France, Japan and several agencies of the United Nations have already contributed men and resources to carry out these further investigations.
For our own part, while the bulk of Canada's aid under the Colombo plan has been and should be concentrated in commonwealth countries, the government considered that this project was sufficiently challenging and promised such great benefits as to warrant some Canadian participation in it. Moreover, the government was influenced by the fact that these benefits would go in substantial degree to countries with which Canada has been closely associated in recent years through our membership in the international supervisory commissions in Indochina.
We therefore made available the services of Lieutenant Colonel G. S. Andrews, surveyor general of the department of lands and forests of the province of British Columbia, to make a detailed study of the problems and estimated costs involved in the aerial surveying and mapping of the Mekong river which, as hon. members will appreciate, is an essential first step toward the eventual realization of the potential benefits of this project.
On the basis of Colonel Andrews' report the Canadian government has now decided to participate in the first priority phase of the survey and mapping of the main stem of the Mekong river. This work, which Canadian companies are particularly well qualified to undertake, is expected to extend over two years and will involve an aggregate Canadian contribution of up to $1.3 million. It is the intention of the government to finance

Announced Canadian Aid to Southeast Asia this contribution from Colombo plan funds which parliament will be asked to appropriate in 1959-60 and 1960-61.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, yesterday we had an announcement by the Secretary of State for External Affairs regarding supplementary action in the matter of assistance to a particular underdeveloped country, and now the Minister of Finance on behalf of his colleague makes an announcement regarding assistance to a development project along the Mekong river which extends through Indo-China and, of course, through part of China itself.
The little country of Laos, with which Canada has had association through the international truce commission, based on the agreements of 1954 and concluded at Geneva, will receive assistance from Canada. The agreements are now to be given further emphasis by this additional assistance amounting to $1.3 million, which is part of our Colombo plan project. I am not aware from what the minister said whether this assistance will extend to the neighbouring country of Cambodia or to the larger neighbouring country of Viet Nam.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I mentioned the four countries; Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and South Viet Nam.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker; I misunderstood. That will be very welcome news in those areas. My hon. friend, however, did mention something that rather mystified me when he said that hitherto we had confined our assistance to south and southeast Asian countries that were in the commonwealth. I am sure that is not the case. We have given some assistance by way of bursaries and training projects to Indo-China and Burma. We have already given some assistance to Viet Nam, and we even anticipated the Soviet union in the assistance we gave for technical training assistance in Cambodia. However, that is not said by way of disagreement with this announcement of policy, which I am sure will be warmly welcomed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member will permit me to correct him. I did not say that our assistance had been confined to those countries. I said it had been and should be concentrated in the commonwealth countries.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thank my hon. friend, Mr. Speaker. In any event the whole house will concur in the decision of the government in this respect, which is a further manifestation of Canada's interest in accordance with her capacity in the economic

and social problems of underdeveloped countries, and in this instance in Asia.
We do this, I take it, as was always done before, without any conditions attached. We do this because we feel that at this difficult time in the history of the world those nations that are more fortunate than others must in accordance with capacity share in the building up of the standard of life of those countries, and in this way we make our contribution to the easing of international tension in our time.


Hazen Robert Argue: This is a
welcome announcement. Any step forward in the provision of economic assistance to underdeveloped countries is something that will receive the support of this group. We hope this will foreshadow a general expansion in Canada's contribution to important programs for economic development in the world today. The strengthening of the economies of backward countries is most important to the western world, democracy and the millions of people in those areas.


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY STATEMENT CONCERNING IMPOSITION OF TOLLS  TABLING OF NOTES
George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I should like to
make a statement regarding the agreement reached between Canada and the United States on the tolls to be charged on the St. Lawrence seaway. With the concurrence of my colleague the Secretary of State for External Affairs, I now table copies in English and in French of the exchange of notes dated March 9, 1959, constituting an agreement between the Canadian and United States governments. The agreement makes provision for the division of the toll revenue, for the method of collection, for future minor amendments of the tariff and for the constitution of a joint tolls advisory board to hear complaints with respect to interpretation of the tariff or alleged unjust discrimination.
The tariff becomes effective from April 1, 1959. The whole concept of defraying the cost of construction and maintenance of the seaway, including the cost of deepening and maintaining the Welland canal as an integral part of the seaway by charging tolls, was provided for in the St. Lawrence Seaway Authority Act of 1951. This principle was fully debated at that time and passed without dissent by parliament.
The tariff of tolls agreed to has the same rates recommended by the tolls committees of the seaway entities on June 12, 1958. Some changes and clarifications have been made in the definitions of bulk and general cargoes.

Statement on St. Lawrence Seaway Tolls
The tariff of tolls is based on a composite assessment which encompasses a charge per ton of cargo actually carried together with a charge per gross registered ton of the vessel, and will be applicable to all vessels whether laden, partially laden or in ballast.
The method of assessing and collecting the tolls and rates was adopted with the following objectives: one, procedural simplicity which will minimize the cost of collection and expedite the dispatching of vessels; two, recovery of the cost of the seaway and its operation on a basis which will provide economic rates to users and encourage traffic.
The rates will be as follows: 1. A vessel will be assessed 6 cents per gross registered ton of the vessel and, in addition, 42 cents per ton of bulk cargo and 95 cents per ton of general cargo carried. 2. A vessel will be assessed 4 cents per gross registered ton of the vessel and, in addition, 40 cents per ton of bulk cargo and 90 cents per ton of general cargo carried. For partial transit of the new seaway facilities between Montreal and lake Ontario, where there are seven locks, the user will be charged for each lock transited 15 per cent of the toll for complete passage.
3.	For each passage through the Welland canal only a vessel will be assessed 2 cents per gross registered ton of the vessel and, in addition, 2 cents per ton of bulk cargo and 5 cents per ton of general cargo carried. In the Welland canal a partial transit will be assessed 50 per cent of the toll for complete passage irrespective of the number of locks used.
Other main features of the agreement and tariff of tolls are: First of all, commercial vessels carrying passengers will be charged 50 cents per passenger for each lock transited between Montreal and lake Erie, in addition to the vessel and cargo charge. The charge for a complete transit of the seaway will be $7.50 per passenger. The tariff will apply to all types of craft using the seaway, including government owned or government operated vessels except vessels of or employed by the seaway entities. Pleasure craft will be subject to the same rates as other vessels except that there is a minimum charge for pleasure craft of $2 per lock transited. The minimum charge for all other vessels will be $4 per lock transited.
The unit of weight for the collection of tolls will be a ton of 2,000 pounds. Provision is made for prior registration of vessels and satisfactory security to be given for the payment of charges subsequent to which passage will be permitted. Toll collection and invoicing of accounts, as well as the preparation of statistical data, are assigned to the St. Lawrence seaway authority at Cornwall. The
66968-9-118
St. Lawrence seaway development corporation will participate in the billing and collecting operation and will share in the annual cost of these services. Charges will be billed to the ship owner or representative promptly and will be payable within 14 days of the date of billing. An additional charge for non-payment within this period may be levied in an amount not to exceed 5 per cent of the amount due.
For through passages to or from Montreal and lake Ontario the invoice will show two amounts to be paid; 1, Canadian funds to cover the portion applicable to the St. Lawrence seaway authority of Canada, which has been intially set at 71 per cent of the total charges, and 2, the balance of the account, or 29 per cent, in United States funds representing the portion applicable to the St. Lawrence seaway development corporation. Tolls for passage on the Welland canal will be paid in Canadian funds only.
Bulk cargo as defined in the tariff of tolls includes such goods as are loose or in mass and generally must be shovelled, pumped, blown, scooped or forked in the handling and, without limiting the generality of the term or otherwise affecting its meaning, it is deemed to include barley, buckwheat, corn, dried beans, dried peas, flaxseed, rapeseed and other seeds, flour, grain screenings, mill feed containing not more than 35 per cent of ingredients other than grain or grain products, oats, rye and wheat, loose or in sacks; cement, loose or in sacks; coke and petroleum coke, loose or in sacks; domestic package freight; liquids carried in ships' tanks; ores and minerals, loose or in sacks, including alumina, bauxite, coke, gravel, phosphate rock, sand, stone and sulphur; pig iron, scrap iron and scrap steel; pulpwood, poles and logs, loose or bundled; raw sugar, loose or in sacks; and wood pulp, loose or in bales. All commodities not included in the definition of "bulk" are classified as general cargo.
The agreement provides that the toll revenue for that portion of the seaway between Montreal and lake Ontario be shared proportionately to the annual charges of the two seaway entities. The agreement also permits, under appropriate procedure, changes in the list of goods defined as bulk cargo.
The joint tolls advisory board to be constituted will consist of four persons, two of whom shall be appointed by the St. Lawrence seaway authority and two by the St. Lawrence seaway development corporation. The board will hear complaints relating to the interpretation of the tariff by the authority or the corporation, or with respect to alleged unjust discrimination arising out of the
1862	HOUSE OF
Statement on St. Lawrence Seaway Tolls operation of the tariff, and report its findings and recommendations to the authority and the corporation.
The two seaway entities are charged with the duty of reporting to their respective governments not later than July 1, 1964 as to the sufficiency of the authorized tolls to meet the statutory requirements and to cause the tariff to be reviewed accordingly. Reviews of the tariff at other times may, of course, take place by decision of the two governments.
As hon. members know, this great inland waterway will become operative with the opening of the navigation season this year, and we have every reason to look forward to a material increase in the volume of shipping using these facilities. This should be of great assistance to the development of the commerce of this country as a whole, and should enable goods produced in Canada to become more competitive in world markets. We look forward to the whole economy of Canada benefiting with the opening of this great seaway project.


Lionel Chevrier: For a
moment, Mr. Speaker, I thought I was listening, particularly during the last part of the minister's remarks, to a speech made by myself. However, I am sure the house will welcome the statement the minister has made, because it will give notice to shippers and ship operators of the tariffs which the two corporations intend to charge in ample time for them to get ready for the opening, which we hope will bring that voluminous amount of traffic which the minister and others have stated.
There are two questions which came to my mind while listening to the statement. The minister stated there would be established a joint tolls advisory board, composed of two representatives from Canada and two representatives from the United States, to deal with the tariff of tolls. My first question is this. The minister will remember that last year when he made a similar announcement prior to the tolls being investigated by the two groups, I asked him whether the board of transport commissioners would have jurisdiction over these tolls. He replied that they would, in conformity with a section in the St. Lawrence seaway authority statute. My question is, why has this change been made?


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the minister would defer his answer until we hear the hon. member for Kootenay West.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the whole house has listened with great interest to this very important statement. However, I think everyone
[Mr. Hees.l

realizes that it takes time to digest a lengthy statement like this, and particularly the attached documents. I am not one who is given to making off the cuff endorsations or condemnations until I have had an opportunity of studying the situation. This represents the view of this group. We are unable to assess fully, from the information received, the impact of this agreement on the various sections of Canada or on certain industries, agricultural producers and so on. We will therefore have to reserve our objective and informed comments until a later date.
However, this is a two-party agreement, completed between the governments of Canada and the United States. We realize that in those circumstances we cannot have all we want if we are to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement. We do hope the government has done its very best in securing this agreement to protect the interests of all sections of Canada. We all know, I think, that the government has received representations from certain provincial governments in Canada, and possibly from some sections of industry, urging a toll free St. Lawrence seaway. I was pleased to note, while listening to the minister's statement, that there is provision in the agreement for consideration of complaints by persons concerned to the board authority. I do hope they take every advantage of that provision in the agreement to bring to the attention of the government the views of various industries, producers and users of the canal across Canada with the idea that as time proceeds the arrangements under this agreement will be satisfactory to all sections of the Canadian people.
In conclusion I want to mention that these requests which have come from various provinces and certain industries and producers in Canada for free tolls spring from the increasing costs of transportation in Canada at this time; that is their basis. I think the protests and the whole argument in support of free tolls are convincing evidence of the necessity of the establishment of a national transportation policy in Canada at the earliest possible date.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the hon. member for Laurier, the answer to his question is that the joint advisory committee has been established because it is considered by the St. Lawrence seaway authority, the St. Lawrence seaway development corporation and the governments of the two countries that this will be the most efficient and fairest method of dealing with representations and complaints, if any arise, from shippers and other interested parties.


Lionel Chevrier: Then I take it that the board of transport commissioners will have no jurisdiction over the rates?


George Harris Hees: That is correct.


Lionel Chevrier: The other question is this. By what rules and regulations will the new United States-Canadian toll board determine whether a rate is unjust or discriminatory?


George Harris Hees: They will hear the complaints and make their recommendations, having so heard the complaints, to the two governments, and the governments will report back to them.

On the orders of the day:


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport, notice of which has been sent to him. Can the minister comment on the view that rate differentials of 42 to 90 cents in the seaway tolls make it cheaper to ship iron ore from Seven Islands to Cleveland by way of the gulf of Mexico and rail than to send it by the St. Lawrence seaway?


George Harris Hees: I wish to thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question. I am unaware what the specific rail and water rates may be from Seven Islands to Cleveland by way of the gulf of Mexico, but the toll committee in determining rates for bulk cargo, including iron ore, did take into account shipping rates by alternative routes, and concluded that the recommended rates via the seaway would be competitive for most traffic movements.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In the issue of the Montreal Gazette of March 11, 1959, an article appears to the effect that the north Atlantic freight conference representing foreign lines sailing into the St. Lawrence and the great lakes intends to quote new ocean rates to Toronto which would be only slightly higher than those being charged to Montreal and, by inference, that the rates to Chicago would be only slightly higher than those being charged to Toronto.
In view of this intimation, is it the intention of the minister or of the government to bring these new ocean rates under the jurisdiction of the board of transport commissioners in the same manner and to the same extent as the railways and the Canadian water carriers are regulated?


George Harris Hees: I have read the report to which the hon. member has referred, and I have 66968-9-118J
Legislation Respecting R.C.M.P. heard rumours of this possibility. My department is looking into this whole matter.


Lionel Chevrier: Will the minister make an announcement with regard to this matter at a later date?


George Harris Hees: Yes, as soon as we have been able to conclude our studies of the matter.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Would the minister, while he is taking the question by the hon. member for Laurier into consideration, also extend his study to the question of chartered ocean shipping proceeding up to the lakehead and the rates that will be charged on these particular ships?


George Harris Hees: Yes, I shall be very glad to do so.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the Minister of Transport a further question which arises out of his statement on tolls. The board of transport commissioners has rules and regulations by means of which it determines what constitutes unjust freight rates with respect to railways. My question is this. How will the new joint board on tolls determine what constitutes an unjust rate in so far as shipments up the St. Lawrence and the great lakes are concerned?


George Harris Hees: Well, they have had some experience in this matter already. After the preliminary announcement was made last June with regard to the suggested toll structure, representations were made to both authorities, to the United States authority in Washington and to the Canadian authority here. They weighed these representations, met together and brought back recommendations to their governments. That is my understanding of the way they will operate.


ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE
Edmund Davie Fulton: for leave to introduce Bill C-34, an act respecting the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Explain.


Edmund Davie Fulton: This is the first of two bills which were forecast in the speech from the throne. This bill deals with the organization and discipline of the force, and will be followed by a second bill dealing with Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension arrangements.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

Inquiries of the Ministry
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


NEWFOUNDLAND
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Justice if, as reported in the press, he stopped the transfer to Newfoundland of additional members of the R.C.M.P. requested by the attorney general of the province under section 13 of the intergovernmental agreement; and if so, on what grounds?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the hon. gentleman's question is that the authority of the Attorney General of Canada is required before any reinforcements are sent to any province, and the authority has not yet been given.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question. In view of the language of section 13, which says that Canada shall, at the request of the attorney general of the province addressed to the commissioner, increase the strength of the division as requested if, in the opinion of the Attorney General of Canada, having regard to other responsibilities and duties of the force, such increase is possible, would the minister say whether it is because the members of the force were not available that this request was not complied with?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The matter is still under consideration, and I am not able to answer the hon. gentleman's question at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If I might ask a further supplementary question, does the hon. gentleman think he has any discretion other than to determine whether the number of police which have been requested is available, and can the minister tell us whether, as the press reports-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -these men have already been assembled?


Mr. Speaker:: I think the last question of the hon. member is really asking for an interpretation of a document. In other words the hon. member is asking for an opinion, and I doubt whether the question is a proper one to ask at this time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, it seems to me that this question relates to a solemn undertaking by the government of Canada to another government, and I should be permitted to ask the minister whether the government intends to carry out that solemn obligation.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member has asked his question and the minister has answered to the effect that the determination has not yet been made. Does the minister wish to comment further on the subsequent question, in view of it having been asked?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Only to say, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Justice requires no lecture from the hon. gentleman as to solemn obligations. The matter is under consideration, as I have already stated.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the minister if he has received any communication from the attorney general of the province?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have, and I was in communication with him last night.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the Prime Minister if he has received any communication from the premier of the province about this matter, and if so would he indicate its nature to the house?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the close relationship between the government of Newfoundland and the hon. gentleman would no doubt provide an answer to his question.


BRIDGES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. In answer to a question of mine yesterday with regard to the Prince Albert bridge over the Saskatchewan river, the minister said it was built under the roads to resources program. Does that mean what are generally called access roads?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: The roads to resources program, Mr. Speaker, has been explained in the house on several occasions. It covers the roads we are building in agreement with nine of the provinces to open up new resource areas in these various provinces.


Alexis Pierre Caron: A supplementary question. Are there any roads within or immediately outside Prince Albert in that program? What I mean is, in the program of roads are there any within the city of Prince Albert or in the immediate vicinity?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, the main project in the agreement in the

province of Saskatchewan is a road to Uranium City, of which the southern terminus is Prince Albert.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Another supplementary question. Does that road at the present time go any further than Lac la Ronge, which is 150 miles from the city of Prince Albert?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I cannot give the house the exact mileage that the road has gone beyond Lac la Ronge, but I would say 30 or 40 miles at least. When the road is finished it will go 550 miles beyond.


Erhart Regier: Might I ask the minister a further supplementary question. Is it not a fact that the only new road being built is from Lac la Ronge northward, and that Lac la Ronge is some 150 miles away from the city of Prince Albert? Therefore the bridge is not anywhere near this road the minister mentioned?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I can inform the hon. member that there are several roads in this program in the province of Saskatchewan.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Could the minister tell me whether Prince Albert is in the Prime Minister's county?


Mr. Speaker:: I suggest that the hon. member will find his answer in the appendix to Hansard.


URANIUM
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. If he has not the information available perhaps he would take this as notice. Is it true that Japan has purchased and taken delivery of six tons of uranium oxide from South Africa without a bilateral agreement having first been concluded between those two countries? If so, would this have any bearing on the government's policy that there must be a bilateral agreement before Canadian producers can sell uranium oxide in more than token quantities?


Gordon Minto Churchill: An alleged sale of uranium by South Africa to Japan has been suggested on several occasions during past months, but there does not appear to be any evidence to support this suggestion. However, I will look into this matter again having regard to the question asked by the hon. gentleman.
Inquiries of the Ministry



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, on March 3 the Leader of the Opposition asked the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question concerning the renewal of the agreement between the United States and Canada for the supply of uranium.
The agreements to which reference was made are the commercial contracts between Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited and the United States atomic energy commission for the supply to the United States of Canadian produced uranium concentrates during the period from 1955 to March 31, 1962 or, in the case of a few mines, to March 31, 1963. These contracts grant the United States atomic energy commission an option to buy the production of the Canadian mines in question during the period between the completion of deliveries under the present contracts and December 31, 1966. The United States atomic energy commission has until March 31, 1961 to exercise these options.
In view of the great importance of this matter to the Canadian uranium industry officials of Eldorado Mining and Refining Limited have in recent months been urging the United States atomic energy commission to make an early declaration of its intentions with respect to the exercise of these options.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I thank the minister for giving us this information. May I ask whether in view of the importance of this matter-an importance which the minister himself has just recognized-and of the fact that it involves something over $300 million this year in exports, the minister will take every possible step within his power to press for the resumption of this agreement by the taking up of the options.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Oh, yes; every possible effort will be made in the course of the next few months.


THE BUDGET
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Moore Benidickson: May I direct a question to the Minister of Finance. Without necessarily pinpointing the date, would it be possible for the minister to indicate the probabilities of having the budget brought in either before or after the Easter parliamentary recess?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is not our intention to introduce the budget prior to the Easter recess, but it

Inquiries of the Ministry is expected that it will be presented soon after the Easter recess. I will endeavour to make an announcement of the date of the budget if possible before the house concludes its sittings prior to the Easter recess.


DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE REPORTED STATEMENT BY PREMIER FROST RESPECTING EARLY RESUMPTION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of Finance if he can make any comment on the statement attributed to Premier Frost in this morning's Globe and Mail-a statement alleged to have been made in the Ontario legislature yesterday- that he was satisfied that as the result of steps now being taken we could look forward to a resumption of the dominion-provincial conference at a fairly early date?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have not seen the report to which the hon. gentleman alludes, but I presume some reference was made to the fact that steps are under way to bring together provincial treasurers or the ministers of finance of the provinces and the Minister of Finance of the federal government after the preliminary discussions which are now proceeding have advanced to the point where such a meeting can be held.
This was all outlined earlier in the session. If the hon. gentleman has forgotten, may I refer him to the answer I gave him and his leader in reply to just such questions on the evening of February 9. An official of the Department of Finance, Mr. Burns, at the present time is visiting the provincial capitals of western Canada conferring with officials of the departments of finance of those provinces, and on his return from the west he will be visiting the provincial governments in central Canada and in the Atlantic area with a view to making arrangements in relation to the meeting and its agenda.


Murdo William Martin: May I ask the
minister whether, in view of the fact that Premier Frost is likely to suggest that there would be a dissolution of the Ontario house before June, the minister thinks there is any possibility of this conference taking place before the provincial elections are held this summer?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I hope my dear and honourable friend has a little better success with his information in this respect than he had with the Martin bureau of statistics.


AGRICULTURE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct
a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the minister inform the house whether poultry products and especially turkeys are still being imported from the United States?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, although I have not
checked on the matter recently and am not certain in this respect I think there are some broiler chickens still coming in from the United States. I believe that is the case. As far as turkeys are concerned, no import permits have been issued in the past few weeks as far as I am aware.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Justice. Has the minister yet received the official copy of the Newfoundland legislation? If so, what study is the government giving to the question of disallowing this legislation?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I was informed last night that two copies had been put in the mail by the attorney general of Newfoundland. I have not yet seen them in my office. It may be that these are the official copies requested, and if so they will be placed before the cabinet immediately.



BELL ISLAND, NFLD.-ASSISTANCE TO UNEMPLOYED MINERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask
the minister from Newfoundland if he has received a telegram or other communication from the mayor of Bell Island asking his assistance in preventing the impending lay-off of about one-third of the working force in the iron mines there and, if so, what action he proposes to take.


William Joseph Browne: Mr. Speaker, I have received such a
telegram, which I have shown to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. Both he and I propose talking to the vice president of the company regarding a possible solution to the problem.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Can the minister tell us if it was the C.B.C. authorities who invited the hon. member for Roberval to appear on a televised news program on channel 2 on March 10 last at 11 p.m. to explain the vote abstention of several Conservative members from Quebec on the trans-Canada highway legislation? If so, would the minister be kind enough to inform us if opposition members could hope to appear on similar programs to comment on what takes place in this house?


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Speaker, I am sure there are members of the opposition who, provided they are photogenic and have a reasonable degree of intelligence and a relatively well-modulated voice, would be welcome for successful programming on the C.B.C.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sevigny in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION

[Stage Direction]
Indian Affairs Branch-
56. Administration, $680,907.
Charles Benjamin Howard: Mr. Chairman, the other evening I was dealing briefly with the question of the education of our native Indian people.
I attempted to point out in a brief way that for many years we have fallen far behind in promoting adequate education for these people. I think it is time we moved as quickly as we possibly can to expand educational facilities and opportunities for the Indians of Canada. My position for some years has been that we should transfer the education of Indians to the jurisdiction of the provinces or those who would accept this responsibility.
Mr. Chairman, there appears to be an inordinate amount of noise in the committee at the moment, and I shall wait until it subsides before continuing.
It has been my thought for a long time that we should persuade the provinces to accept the responsibility of the education of our Indian people with payments being made from the federal treasury to assist in the cost of providing that education.
Last session I had occasion to mention the salary structure of teachers. I suggested that
12. 1959	1867
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the Indian affairs branch does not pay sufficiently high salaries to its teachers and therefore is not able to compete with other schools throughout the country for the most able teachers. I have some figures with respect to salaries paid to teachers in British Columbia, and I should like to compare them in a general way with the salaries paid to teachers who work under the Indian affairs branch. The schedule I have is the Department of Citizenship and Immigration schedule of salaries for 1958, and I do not know if it is still in effect.
I observe that the minister shakes her head in the negative. If there is an additional schedule then I can dispense with my remarks on this subject for the time being. I wonder if the minister at a later stage in this discussion could place on the record or have printed as an appendix to Hansard the present salary schedule for teachers in the Indian affairs branch.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, if I have permission of the committee to do so I shall be glad to place that schedule on Hansard.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Is it the wish of the committee to give the minister consent to place this information on the record?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: It is kind of the minister to do this and I appreciate her co-operation. I may have some remarks to make on this subject at a later stage, depending on the information contained in the schedule.
In her opening remarks the other day the minister made reference to the question of increasing the welfare relief payments, especially with respect to moving in the direction of cash payments rather than giving food allowances. The information was set out in a table and at page 1665 of Hansard the minister is reported as saying:
At the same time new scales of food allowances in terms of dollar value have been authorized-
I wonder if the minister would make available to us the new scales so we may relate them to the food allowances previously in effect under which so many pounds of beans, peas and flour were listed. Is that information available?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That practice has been discontinued.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I did not know whether the minister was still going to use both or go directly into cash payments. I am sure that will be helpful. However, I do find that in the scale that was placed on Hansard the standard rates of $22 for a single adult and $15 for each additional adult or child over
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration 12 years of age and $12 for each child under 12 are not very much different from the maximum amounts authorized before, with the exception of the increase from $18 to $22 per month for the adult. Columns A, B, C and D indicate that additional rates may be payable, depending upon high cost areas and special circumstances.
I hope the minister will not make too many payments under the standard rates, because these are disgracefully low. I hope she will keep her thinking in terms of the necessity of providing cash relief to indigent Indians. I hope she will keep in mind schedule D, let us say, rather than the others. Even so, in my opinion these rates are still not comparable to any marked degree with relief payments made to non-Indian people.
I obtained the information I have here over the telephone this morning from the research branch of the Department of National Health and Welfare. This information is supposed to have been published in the Ontario Gazette on June 1, 1957. It relates to payments made in unorganized territory in the province of Ontario and lists maximum amounts of relief payments. If one makes brief reference to this he finds that these maximum amounts paid are in excess of maximum amounts allowable under the new, revised scale which the minister provided us with on March 5. The maximum is $120 a month to the head of a family with one dependant. I will not give the rest of them, but they move upward from there, depending on the number of dependants, to a maximum of $180 a month in relief payments to people in unorganized territory in the province of Ontario.
So far as I have been able to find out these maximum payments include payments which could be made for special diets, for medical-


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member does not want to prolong the discussion when he is obviously on the wrong tack. The amounts he has described which are paid by the several welfare agencies include all manner of things.


Charles Benjamin Howard: That is what I was saying. These maximum payments which I have listed from Ontario take into account such questions as special diets, and so on. I had got that far when the minister interrupted. They include medical supplies, household sundries, shelter, fuel and so on. I was not trying to leave the impression that they were exactly comparable. What I am trying to point out is that $38 per month for a single adult is still, in my opinion, not sufficient, depending on the circumstances of the case.


I would rather see a larger maximum allowable, to take into account particular circumstances.
I should like to raise one other matter. It has to do with our general attitude toward Indians, which I hope will change as we progress. Generally we in Canada look with abhorrence upon racial discrimination which exists in other parts of the world. We decry the attitude that exists in certain sections of the United States toward its negro population. We view with distaste the approach of apartheid in certain parts of the world such as Africa. Generally we pride ourselves on being free from discrimination in Canadaj and we say that other countries certainly are not as far advanced in racial equality as we are.
I do not think we should pride ourselves too much on that, because there still exists in a number of places in Canada, consciously or otherwise, an attitude of discrimination against native Canadian peoples in terms of providing them with employment and accommodation in hotels and things of that nature. I know we cannot legislate, though we have tried it in some provinces in Canada, to make that type of discrimination illegal, because it is an attitude of mind on the part of one group as against another. I only express the hope that in the future we shall think more in terms of an attitude of equality toward our native Indian people, far more so than we have done in the past.
I should like to deal with one other specific item. Inasmuch as we shall be establishing a joint committee of this house and the other place shortly-at least I hope it will be shortly-there will be ample opportunity to go in the fullest possible detail into the problems of our native Indian peoples, and I hope we shall find some solutions to them. Therefore my remarks will be rather general and brief on this occasion.
There is a question affecting our native Indian peoples, namely the question of liquor as it relates to the native Indian, that I should like to deal with. On March 4 there was a news item in the Vancouver Province which apparently arose out of a letter that a Mr. Andy Pauli from Vancouver had sent to the minister, asking that native Indians there be given the right to buy liquor in liquor stores and also packaged goods-they are called that-in liquor stores and take them home. The announcement of the attorney general of British Columbia was to the effect that the first move, in so far as liquor rights for Indians were concerned, was entirely up to the Indians themselves.
I suppose in the strict and narrow sense, without taking into account the full provisions of the Indian Act in so far as liquor

is concerned, the attorney general was correct. But I think someone should either bring him up to date on what the law of this country is, or he should go back to law school for a little while to find out what is in the Indian Act; because the attitude of the attorney general in that province is not conducive to providing equality of opportunity for our native Indian peoples.
He says that in the first instance it is up to the Indians themselves. I would point out the ridiculous situation which would exist if Indian band councils were to take advantage of a section of the Indian Act having to do with the right to have liquor on the Indian reserves without having the right to be in possession of liquor in other parts of the province. An Indian band council could do this under a section of the Indian Act. If they took that action and the attorney general of British Columbia, or the attorney general of any other province, did not object within 60 days; if they had a referendum and the reserve decided that they wanted the right to consume liquor on the reserve, we would find that they would be in the ridiculous position of having the right to consume liquor on the reserve but no right to buy it or to keep it there. They would have the right to drink in a beer parlour, as they have in British Columbia, but they could not buy a case of beer in a beer parlour and take it home on the reserve, where they could have the right to have it if they were to follow the suggestion of the attorney general.
So far as British Columbia and the other provinces are concerned, the matter rests squarely on the shoulders of the provincial governments from the point of view of taking the initiative. Certainly Indian band councils could take the initiative but, as I am sure the minister realizes, that would merely promote a chaotic situation.
Our liquor laws as they relate to Indians are a bit foolish. We hear the comment that Indian people cannot handle their liquor, that they do all sorts of wild things when they have access to liquor, and therefore we should not allow them to have it or, if we do, only under strict conditions. It is quite true that when a native Indian gets a little too much of the corn under his belt he becomes drunk, obnoxious, loud-mouthed, sloppy, argumentative and wants to fight. It is quite true that is what happens to the native Indian; in fact he is almost as bad as the white man who does the same thing. There is no difference.
I should like to point out the ridiculousness of our liquor laws as they apply to native Indians. Depending on who and 66968-9-119
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration where he is, it is all right for a native Indian to drink liquor. I do not wish to speak in any derogatory sense at all, but I should like to make reference to His Excellency the Governor General.	He was in
Prince Rupert on October 21 and 22, 1952, and held a reception at which liquor was served. Native Indian people of the province of British Columbia were invited to the reception and some of them came. One of them was Frank Calder, at that time a member of the legislature. Another was Ed Bolton from Port Essington, a member of the Indian advisory committee of British Columbia. These gentlemen, both native Indians, both members of Indian bands, went to the reception and imbibed liquor there. Thereby they broke the law, the Governor General broke the law, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Canada's finest, were there and did not enforce the law.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Order. I must ask the hon. member to refrain from mentioning that His Excellency the Governor General has broken the law. In fact I must ask that he withdraw those remarks.


Harold Edward Winch: Even though he did.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: I must also ask the hon. member for Vancouver East to withdraw that remark, and I must advise hon. members that the next reference of this kind concerning His Excellency the Governor General will be treated quite severely by the Chair.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I said initially that I did not want to say anything in a derogatory way. I realize it is a rule of the house that I cannot cast reflections upon His Excellency. I did not intend to do so, and I am not.


An hon. Member:: Withdraw.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: The statement was made by the hon. member for Skeena that His Excellency the Governor General had broken the law. I must ask him to withdraw that statement.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Well, I will, Mr. Chairman. That is what I intended to do earlier in my remarks, and I thought I had. The unfortunate part is that two native Indian people whom I know very well, two members of Indian bands, restricted by the laws of Canada and the laws of the province, broke the law by imbibing at a certain reception; and while the law enforcement officers of the crown, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, were there they did not, for obvious reasons, take any steps to make any arrests.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
In the past Frank Calder, by reason of the position he then held as a member of the legislature, was invited to a number of receptions. He was an Indian, a member of a band and prohibited from drinking liquor, but he was invited to a number of receptions and he went. The R.C.M.P. were there and they did not interfere in any way. Yet Frank Calder broke the law respecting liquor rights as much as it was possible to break the law. I do not blame him one bit; I would do the same thing myself if I were in his position. Again, not only at the reception I have mentioned but at every session of the provincial legislature Frank Calder was invited to a reception by the lieutenant governor of the province.
There is another awkward relationship involving a native Indian and the liquor laws. It has to do with a gentleman who is a member of the other place. Because of his background, because of his race, because of the position he holds, no doubt he has been invited to many receptions in the past at which liquor was served and undoubtedly he will be invited to similar receptions in the future. As the situation stands now, having regard to the province of Ontario only, if that hon. gentleman as a member of the other house accepts an invitation to such a reception he is in order. He is not contravening the law.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: The hon. member cannot refer to the actions of a member of the other place in the present fashion. Furthermore, all references concerning various guests whom the lieutenant governors of the various provinces may wish to have at their receptions are quite out of order. Furthermore, we cannot refer in this house to actions of lieutenant governors or matters affecting provincial legislatures.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, if I may raise a point of order, I quite agree with and I am not protesting what Your Honour has said about lieutenant governors and the Governor General, but surely when because of his race the hon. member for Skeena referred to a person who happens to be in the other place he was simply illustrating a point with respect to Indians, and was not discussing that gentleman's conduct in the other place or any speech he has made or anything he has done as a member of the other place. He was discussing the fact that an Indian was a member of the other place and was subject to additional embarrassment for that reason. It seems to me that it would be very restrictive indeed to our liberties in discussing the administration of the Indian Act if Your Honour were to insist upon so narrow an interpretation.


Harold Edward Winch: The government is very touchy on this subject.


Charles Benjamin Howard: As the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has pointed out, it is not my intention to embarrass anyone but merely to attempt to show the foolishness of our liquor laws as they apply to some people in Canada. However, I can say that a few years ago I deliberately invited a native Indian into my home, an Indian who was a member of a band and prohibited by law from consuming liquor in any other place except a licensed beer parlour or cocktail bar. Incidentally, Indians cannot get into the cocktail bars because of the discriminatory attitude of their operators. I invited this Indian into my home and offered him a drink. I mentioned to the R.C.M.P. beforehand what I was going to do and I was told not to worry, that they would not do anything about it. That again shows the ridiculousness of our liquor legislation. All I am trying to point at this time is that the situation is screwy, and that some action should be taken immediately.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: You were trying to get someone into trouble.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I was trying, my friend says, to get somebody in trouble; that is about the extent of his knowledge of this situation. I am here to point out the necessity for an attitude of equality toward the people of this country whether their skins be coloured the same as yours or differently; whether they happen to have been born of parents who were in this country many years before my parents were in this country, or under any other circumstance.
I point out that our attitude toward these people is not one of equality but one of discrimination. This is another phase of it, and the problem rests squarely on the shoulders of the province. I know the Indian Act has been amended, in effect, to remove as much as possible the jurisdiction of the minister with regard to the liquor question as it relates to Indians. This problem has been pushed where it belongs, under the jurisdiction of the various provincial governments. I am complaining that they are at fault in not working in the direction in which they should be working. There is one province, Ontario, which is far advanced in so far as the question of liquor is concerned, and I wish to heaven the other provinces would follow suit.


Hubert Badanai: I was glad, Mr. Chairman, last week to hear the minister say that it is the government's intention to see that the Indian population receive greater consideration. I understand that the department

of Indian affairs is conducting an experimental program in Manitoba which has to do with the rehabilitation of Indians who have been disabled by tuberculosis. This is a very commendable beginning, but it should not be limited to Manitoba. We have similar cases in the district of Thunder bay. It seems to me that Indians who have spent several months or years in a sanatorium should be helped, no matter where they live.
I suggest that Fort William or Port Arthur could be considered as an ideal centre for the establishment of a rehabilitation centre in one of the lakehead hospitals, preferably in one of the wings of the Fort William district sanatorium. Young men and women could be trained as orderlies or nurses' aides. These Indians could be taught some trades to enable them to become useful citizens, and at the same time give them a feeling that they are part of the community and enjoying equality of treatment, which I believe should be the answer for all Indian problems.
Another great need is adequate recreational facilities. The problem of unemployment is greater for the Indians than for the rest of the population because of their isolation. This makes constructive recreational outlets doubly important, as the young people tend to drift around and get into trouble. A few years ago, as a result of the generosity of the president of Canadian National Railways and a few people in Fort William, a small building was made available for recreational purposes. This has helped to some extent. However, the lack of proper direction and adequate assistance has limited its usefulness. Here is a place where the government can really do something which would not cost a great deal.
It is rather regrettable, but the Indians still do not have the full benefit of all the services provided by the Ontario government that other people enjoy. An example of this may be found in the matter of mothers' allowances. I submit that while the public welfare authorities may be experiencing certain difficulties in extending their services to Indians, and while a certain amount of time will be required to achieve a smoothly functioning procedure, this should not prevent them from receiving the full benefit of all our welfare services.
At the present time when an Indian family is destitute the amount of assistance it receives from the department is much below that which would be required for even a minimum standard of subsistence. If the act were amended so that a reserve would be regarded as a municipality for such welfare purposes, with the department of Indian affairs assuming the responsibility together with the band and the province providing its usual 66968-9-1194
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration share of 40 per cent of the cost as is the case with municipalities, the difficulties would vanish.
During a recent visit to my constituency I attended a meeting of the local Indian band, which is the Ojibway tribe. Their chief, Frank Pelletier, welcomed me to their reservation school and outlined some of their needs and grievances. He felt that there was a need for higher education. He deplored the neglect in the past, but hoped that the coming generation might obtain an education which would enable the Indian to stand on his own feet in a competitive world.
The next most important need is housing. The Indians do not have the funds to decently house their growing population. Some houses which were constructed a few years ago were poorly built; they were too low; they sagged, and the doors and windows stuck. Here, surely, was a case of total indifference and a definite lack of good workmanship. They do not ask for ultra-modern buildings, but something good and solid.
These Indians certainly complained about not having a vote in federal elections. This indeed seems to be a paradox. They can vote for a provincial member but they are not allowed to vote for a federal member when, in reality, it is the federal government which has jurisdiction over their affairs.
The majority of the men are employed cutting pulpwood, but their limits are almost exhausted and within two or three years this source of livelihood will be gone unless the government provides some new limits. There are several islands in the district with good stands of timber which would be ideal for their purpose. Some time ago some individual from the department of Indian affairs made a survey, but nothing has been heard of the outcome. There seems to be a lack of co-operation, if not total neglect, on the part of the department of Indian affairs in Ottawa.
In so far as education is concerned, the elementary schools are well conducted and presided over by competent teachers. One of them, Mrs. Mary Duggan, attended the meeting. She made the suggestion that in order to prepare pupils to absorb a higher education they should be given some vocational training, such as carpentry for the boys and sewing for the girls. The department should look into the matter, since it would not cost much to set up a couple of rooms in the basement of one of the schools and have someone supervise at least a limited vocational training program.
All the pupils capable of absorbing education wishing to attend high school in the city should be provided with transportation. A small bus or even a station wagon would

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration probably meet the requirements of those on the reservation. One father whose family lives in the reserve at Squaw bay, which is approximately seven miles from the nearest high school, has three children who wish to go to high school, but there is no means of transportation. That is just a case in point. Some 12 children do attend high school in the city, and they walk two miles to the nearest city bus line. Road conditions within the reservation are also poor and this matter came in for a lot of criticism from the gathering. Only $6,000 had been appropriated for road work in three reservations, which means that only a bit of patchwork on each can be expected.
The Fort William reservations own mount MacKay, which is about 900 feet above the level of lake Superior, at the back of which the Fort William watershed is located. That is a lake known as loch Lomond, which is seven miles long and about half a mile wide, from which lake our city gets its water. I might add that it is the purest water on the continent, flowing by gravity through a tunnel on the mountainside and piped to the city. It is so pure that it needs no distilling for any purpose. The purity and taste of this water have been favourably compared with the water flowing from the summit of mount Ben Nevis, which is the highest peak in the British isles, in Fort William, Scotland. There is a road leading up around the ledge of the mountain some 600 feet high, at the end of which there is a chapel and also a cross erected in memory of the Indian soldiers who fought and died in the first great war. This side of the mountain could be beautified, and with a good road would become one of the major tourist attractions of the lakehead. I believe the department should look into this feature as a means of revenue for the Indians of the local reserve.
Another question which is worthy of consideration is the status of the Indian in relation to our liquor laws. Our Indians are asking for the same privileges enjoyed by other people. It is rather a shame that an honest, civilized human being, because he is one of the original Canadians, upon entering a beverage room is faced with a large sign which reads, "Anyone caught serving an Indian will be prosecuted". Such is not the treatment that the forebears of our present Indians were promised when they all too trustingly agreed to let the white man take over most of their possessions. How can we speak of bills of rights when we are condoning such an injustice? In the event of war these men would be in the armed services. Many of them have served with distinction in both world wars, yet they are faced with the worst type of discrimination. Let us have

equal privileges for equal responsibilities. This glorious country of Canada cannot and should not have two classes of citizens. To quote the Indian chief of our tribe himself at this particular meeting, he said:
There is good and bad among all classes of men, but the majority of my people are law abiding and should be recognized as such.
Now I wish to quote from an editorial which appeared in the Globe and Mail in late February of 1959 and which contains a few paragraphs of an address delivered by Professor W. J. Morris of the University of Toronto:
Across the country, he said, Indians constitute the most economically depressed segment of our population. A once proud and noble people showed a high degree of co-operation toward the encroaching whites; and as their inheritance they are "tossed from municipal to provincial to dominion governments like the proverbial football".
He recalls that for decades there was a pitiful lack of educational facilities on reserves, and those that existed were furnished by the churches. These and welfare conditions have improved, but Indians forced off the reserves "by threat of starvation" find no comparable services among whites. For our 111,000 Eskimo, said Professor Morris, we spend more than twice as much as we do for 173,000 Indians. "This in itself is second class citizenship." And we need only recall recent testimony of Eskimo hardship to visualize the lot of the Indians.
With "our first real Indian act" dating only from 1951, Professor Morris says we have "operated on a hit and miss basis": and among his suggestions is research both economic and in the area of inter-personal relations, together with inter-government co-operation at all levels to utilize voluntary resources. "We have for long enough refused to accept any measure of responsibility as individuals for what is in effect the sorest blight on our Canadian conscience."
Those are important words. Two centuries of official bungling and evasion of a great human problem are in the last analysis a reproach on the monumental indifference of the Canadian people. It will in turn be their pressure which will give Indians their rightful heritage of first class citizenship.
As a matter of fact, the press of the country appears to be unanimous in its estimate of the situation. After 200 years since the royal proclamation, which said that no Indian could be dispossessed of his land without the crown's consent, this charter signed in 1763 being a guarantee of equality, these promises have not been fulfilled according to its terms.
I have a copy of another editorial which appeared in the Calgary Herald, which further illustrates, if more illustrations are needed, that the plight of the Indian is a question which concerns all Canadians. I quote:
Canadians are quick to offer advice and gratuitous opinions on racial problems in other countries. Yet Canadians are part of what might be called an unintentional conspiracy to keep the Indians as second class citizens. Canada's record with the native Indian population has some items of merit

to its credit over the years. Unfortunately we have only to look at the Indian population to realize that an entirely new approach is needed, and should be speeded to suit modern conditions.
Mr. Chairman, this is undoubtedly an accurate appraisal of the present status of our Indian population. I do not wish to cast any aspersions, or blame this or any former government. I simply express a belief and desire on the part of the great majority of the Canadian people that the time has arrived for the government of Canada to translate good intentions into a practical reality. I respectfully submit that the question of helping our Indian population is an urgent one and should be dealt with during this session of parliament.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: First of all, may I say that I am wondering why the hon. member for Skeena spent so much of his time dealing with the question of liquor for Indians. I think the big problem which faces the Indian today is the opportunity to earn enough money to make a living so that in the long run he may have enough money left to buy his liquor after he gets his permit.
With regard to what he said about the difficulty experienced by an hon. member in the other place, I personally think that the hon. senator should apply for enfranchisement if he wants to drink liquor. All he needs to do under the terms of the Indian Act is to apply for enfranchisement.
I wish to express my appreciation today for the consideration which the minister has given to the question of destitute rations and to the problem of housing. In past years, as the hon. lady knows, I have been very critical of the meagre rations distributed to Indians who are destitute or who have returned to their homes from tuberculosis hospitals after being cured of T.B. The minister has given us the details with regard to destitute rations, and I wonder if she would be good enough, when she replies, to give us similar details with regard to rehabilitation rations, in particular those rations which are given to people who have returned from tuberculosis hospitals.
In each of the past five years the amount set aside in the estimates for providing Indians with housing, at least in my part of the country, has increased. However, I do not think it has increased at the rate it should have increased if we really intend to impress upon the Indians that we are conscientiously and seriously concerned about their living standards. I think we could well increase a great deal more those estimates, particularly where they concern the Northwest Territories.
I was happy to see that some attention has been paid to the economic development of
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration native Indians. If I understood correctly the minister's statement the other day, it was to the effect that a new division would be established within her department in order to deal with the economic aspect of the development of our Indian people. I am wondering, however, if this new division will have any jurisdiction in the Northwest Territories, and I say this because I heard recently that the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources has carried out a reorganization of their department and have set up a new division in that department known as the welfare division. I understood the minister of northern affairs to say that this new division in his department would look after not only the welfare of Eskimos, as it has done for many years, but also the welfare of Indians, white people and all others in the Northwest Territories.
I notice also that a new section of the department of Northern Affairs and National Resources was set up this year, namely the industrial section. This section involves, I imagine, a duplication of what the department of Indian affairs has done in setting up its new economic development section. I hope the minister will be able to clear up this matter when she replies, and say whether her department will have jurisdiction with regard to the welfare and economic development of Indians in the Northwest Territories or whether this work will be the responsibility of the department of northern affairs.
I wish also at this time to express my appreciation of the very fine work done by the officers of the hon. lady's department in my riding. In recent years we have found these officers coming into my riding in greater numbers, and we are thankful for that, and I am confident they are all very interested in the native people and anxious to bring about changes which would make it possible for Indians to realize a standard of living which could be compared, at least to some extent, with our own. I should like to make a suggestion to the minister with regard to the economic development of our Indian people.
As the minister knows, we have Indian agencies in the Northwest Territories at Yellowknife, at Smith, in Norman and Akla-vik, Hay River and Simpson. Each of these agents has to cover a very large area if they are to get into close contact with the natives and understand the problems of the communities over which they have jurisdiction. I wish to suggest to the minister that
the department should hire works foremen_____
let us call them that-in every settlement in the Northwest Territories where there is an Indian population. The duty of these work foremen would be to guide and give leadership to the Indian people in their economic
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration development. The people appointed should be men who know the conditions in the north, people who have lived in these communities, not someone who has just come out of the University of Toronto with a degree in welfare. The people I have in mind should be practical men who have lived with the Indians and who are interested in doing something to improve their conditions.
A further suggestion I have to make concerns co-operation between the Indians and the works foreman. I think any Indian agent would agree that in my part of the country, at least, the co-operation of the Indian chief of each particular band and settlement is very necessary if the government hopes to "sell" to the Indians a policy designed to raise their living standards and help them advance from their present static condition. The co-operation of the chiefs is very necessary in most cases if the government is to be successful in bringing the Indians out of the depths of poverty. I understand that in some parts of Canada the chiefs have not the same influence over their tribes as they had many years ago. But in the Northwest Territories they still have great influence over their people, and I suggest to the minister that her department should pay the chiefs some sort of salary for working in co-operation with the works foremen to which I have referred and helping to convince his people of the benefits of government policy in the field of economic development.
I also think that in every community there should be provided a tractor with a blade, a sawmill and a powered scow. I will go into this matter in somewhat more detail, pointing out what I think each of these pieces of equipment will or can do in order to help the Indian to place himself in a position where he can at least make a living like any other person in Canada.
At this time I would like to deal with the Great Slave lake area in particular. There are many communities centred around this lake including Yellowknife, Rae, Hay River, Fort Resolution, Rocher River and Snowdrift. Great Slave lake is considered to be the world's greatest source of whitefish and trout but on this lake you see only a handful of Indians working in the industry of commercial fishing. In my opinion many more of these people could be employed in this industry but you cannot say to an Indian, "Here you have this lake; the fish buyers are here so go out and fish." Any commercial fisherman must have a considerable amount of equipment. I suggest to the department that it should set up some sort of loan fund for Indians all around the lake including those people at Fort Providence and Fort Simpson who every fall go up the Mackenzie river into the lake to do their domestic fishing under


which a loan plan could be established. In other words these people could borrow money to equip themselves under the guidance of the works foreman to whom I previously made reference and establish themselves in the profitable business of commercial fishing on Great Slave lake.
Another thing that would be of assistance would be to have the department request the Department of Fisheries to conduct surveys to investigate the various inland lakes such as Lac la Marte to establish whether or not they are suitable for commercial fishing. If, for instance, Lac la Marte was found to be suitable for this purpose a number of our Indian people in the area around Rae, Lac la Marte and Hislop lake could be profitably employed in commercial fishing. I urge the department to take some steps toward supplying these people with guidance and equipment to encourage them to become engaged in useful projects of this type.
A few moments ago I said that every settlement in the district should be supplied with a tractor and other equipment. I appreciate that the first question that will be asked is: What will the Indians do with this equipment? In the Northwest Territories we have vocational training schools. Here the Indians are trained as operators of tractors and other equipment. These trained operators could be used during the early winter before the snow became too deep in hauling out logs cut by other Indians in the bush to supply the people in the area with material for proper housing for themselves. At the present time they tend to construct clapboard or plywood homes under a contract basis. I believe the Indians should be encouraged to haul out their own logs from the bush and build suitable homes for themselves.
The sawmill could square the logs and it could be operated by our native people under direction and guidance. There is no reason why one or two Indians from each settlement could not be trained in sawmill work at the vocational schools.
I also urge that a powered scow be provided at each settlement. Any person who has lived among Indians or dealt with them is aware that when winter comes they are faced with the problem of heating their homes. These people usually live for today with no real thought for tomorrow or the future and so their homes are heated from day to day as it were. If a scow were provided it could mean that those Indians who were unable to obtain salaried employment during the summer months could work in the bush cutting wood and transporting it to the settlements to provide themselves with a supply of firewood for the winter, and also

they could sell wood to those Indians who were gainfully employed on a payroll.
There are other things that could be done. Possibly some land clearing equipment could be provided in areas where there is land suitable for growing vegetables. The men could work the equipment and the women could look after the seeding and weeding and assist with the crops.
At this point I cannot resist telling the committee about a trip I took down the Mackenzie river in 1954 with the then minister of northern affairs and national resources. It was his first trip north after his appointment and of course at every place we visited the civil servants shined up the brass and showed us all the nice things in the north. We eventually arrived at Fort McPherson and were given a wonderful dinner. When we left the dining room the local school teacher invited the minister, the deputy minister and others including myself to see the garden project. We discovered six or seven Indian women pulling weeds in the garden. By the time we arrived there only half the garden had been weeded. The word had gone around that the minister was coming and the garden should be cleaned up quickly and although they had started at it in the morning they had not completed it by the time we arrived. If we had arrived in the morning before the warning had gone out we would have seen nothing but weeds in the garden.
There are, however, Indians in the north who have initiative and who are interested in working. They tell me that garden projects of this kind operated on a community basis is for the birds. They explained that some of them work very hard all summer in the garden and when the fall comes the crop is taken off and shared with the whole community. They said they would rather see the government split up these garden plots into individual acreage. They prefer to work their own plots and take off the produce that is the fruit of their individual labour.


An hon. Member:: That was a C.C.F. policy.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: An hon. member comments that communal gardens were a C.C.F. policy and I agree. I have explained what has been happening under that policy. I hope the department will change its tune on that score and give these people some opportunity for individualism, a goal to work for and a degree of personal initiative.
I have dealt with some of the things we could do to improve the lot of the Indian people. It must be pointed out, however, that the fur industry is still the backbone of the economy of the native people in the Northwest
12, 1959	1875
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Territories. In the past several years fur prices have been so low that in many places it is not worth trapping fur. I appeal to the minister and ask her to see her friend, the Minister of Agriculture, and ask him why we cannot bring fur under the Agricultural Prices Support Act. Everything else that is produced in this country can come under the act. The raspberry growers, the pulpwood cutters, grain grown in eastern Canada, and just about everything that is grown comes under the act. Sheep come under the act. Wool of the sheep comes under the act. Everything from soup to nuts comes under the act. The minister told me last year that even the fur ranchers in Canada who ranch mink and other furs come under this act, but wild fur cannot come under it. I appeal to the minister and I am sure that with her sweet smile she can convince her colleague the Minister of Agriculture that wild fur should come under the act. If she cannot do that, then I would suggest that the department of Indian affairs should start to look at the proposition of putting a floor price under furs, covered by separate legislation, if we have to.
In the past four or five years there have been-and I am sure the director, or any of the officials of the department will agree with this-a number of Indians employed in construction projects at Inuvik, at Fort Smith, at Yellowknife on the road, and so on. The minister mentioned this as a matter of fact in her statement. This year we are in the process of moving the town of Aklavik to its new location. At Fort Smith we are building government houses for civil servants and offices for civil servants. Most of the building that is going on is for civil servants and some Indians are working on those projects. Those construction programs will be over and finished in two years. Ever since we started that construction program I have repeatedly said that we had to look to the future. It is fine and dandy to have Indians on the payroll today and making a half decent living, but the minute that construction is over what are you going to do with the Indian? This is the problem and now is the time to start thinking about it. What are you going to do with the children who are coming out of the vocational training schools that we have built in all parts of the country. This is a problem that requires serious consideration now.
I noticed the minister said we will have placement officers. Have we one in the Northwest Territories? If we have, has any thought been given to what the placement officer is going to do to place Indians if there is nothing for them to do? How are we to encourage native children to take vocational training two or three years from now when their older brothers and sisters have come
1876	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration out of school and are back on the trap line trapping muskrats because there is nothing else for them to do? This is a serious problem. If we do not do some planning now we shall force the native Indians four or five years from now to reject the whole basis of education and he will have reason to do so. He goes into a school and takes a course as a grader operator, an electrician or any sort of operator but when he comes out of school the construction work is finished and he has no job. Then the government asks him to go back on a trap line, something he has never done before. He does not know how to trap; he is useless as far as trapping is concerned. If we do not do some serious thinking now this will happen.
There is an immediate solution at least for those who have been trained in the last few years and for those who are being trained right now. I would suggest that the Department of Transport be notified of every native who is a mechanic or who is able to operate a piece of equipment such as a snow blower, a grader, a tractor and the like, all of which are required, as the committee knows, for the maintenance of airports, with the view of filling all the vacancies from now on with natives who have been through the vocational training courses provided by the government and who I am sure can handle any piece of equipment that is sitting on any airport in the Northwest Territories.
This, I say, is something we should do immediately. We should provide every department of government operating in the country with a list of qualified people whom they might require for their work. I suggest also that before the construction season opens this year the contractors who have been successful in getting contracts at Inuvik, Fort Smith, Hay River, Fort Simpson, Yellowknife, and on all the roads that are going north, be supplied with a similar list. It should be made plain to them that native people are to be employed before they start shipping in carloads of people from the outside. The Northwest Territories has the highest percentage of unemployment in Canada, regardless of what anyone says. When native people who have been told, "you take a vocational training course and you will receive jobs", find themselves out of work during the construction season and find, as I said a moment ago, carloads and aeroplane loads of men being shipped into the north to do jobs they could do, how do you think they feel about it?
I would also suggest that we provide a list to the Imperial Oil company down in Norman Wells and to the transportation companies, both the crown-owned Northern Transportation Company and the Yellowknife Transport, and ask for their co-operation.
[Mr. Hardie.l


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but I must advise him that his time has expired.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, there is one matter coming under this vote upon which I should like to make a few comments. It is one which has not been discussed so far and I admit that it is somewhat complicated. Nonetheless, I hope that the minister will be able to give the committee some information about it. May I say first of all that I am raising this matter at the request of the president of the grand council of the North American Indian brotherhood.
We all recognize that property and civil rights and natural resources come within the jurisdiction of the provinces while Indian affairs come within the jurisdiction of the federal government. However, it has been mentioned to me on a number of occasions and again recently by the grand council of the North American Indian brotherhood that they would like to have a clear exposition from the minister as to how far she feels her responsibility extends in the conduct and direction of Indian affairs having regard to ownership of property and Indian rights within the boundaries of provinces, particularly where no treaty rights are involved.
We all recognize that the minister is faced with problems right now involving the Six Nations Indians and it may be on a somewhat similar basis that I have been asked to raise this matter in the committee at this time. I have been told on many occasions by Indian chiefs in British Columbia that they have never given over their ownership of British Columbia because there is no treaty under which they did so. However, I am not going into that phase of the matter this afternoon.
May I say that I am quite proud that the native Indians of British Columbia should take such interest in whether or not they hold ownership to lands and certain rights in respect of timber or minerals. In recent years they have expressed great interest in the development of the province and great interest particularly in the last year as to who will develop the province. They are primarily interested in the northern part of British Columbia where, as the minister knows, approximately one-fifth of the territory of British Columbia apparently is to be ceded by the Social Credit government of our province to a corporation or group of corporations nominally headed by Axel Wenner-Gren but behind whom we know are the Krupp interests of Germany. The Indians are concerned as to their status in the development of that part of the province under that type of ownership. I believe that the Indians of British Columbia generally

and the grand council of the North American Indian brotherhood are to be congratulated, complimented and commended because of their interest in this matter. Perhaps the best way I can present the matter to the minister and the officers of her department is by doing what I was requested to do by the president of the grand council. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will read the letter I received under date of February 20 on the official letterhead of the brotherhood. It reads in part as follows:
By the provision of section 109 of the B.N.A. Act, the title to the minerals and soil in a province is in the crown, the province and the Indians. Lord Watson in giving judgment for the privy council in the St. Catharines Milling case ruled in part as folows: "There is a third interest, and that interest is the Indian interest, which is capable of being vindicated in competition with the provincial interest."
By that fact and by law, as fortified by the privy council judgment. .. the B.C. Indians have an interest equal to the province but wacky Bennett has not consulted us in giving a big portion of what belongs to us Indians to Axel Wenner-Gren. The reason for this letter is to ask you to speak for us in the House of Commons and ask what kind of a man is this Axel Wenner-Gren? Is he worthy of a man to be allowed into British Columbia? The people of B.C. who are co-owners of what Bennett is going to give him... from the grapevine and the moccasin telegraph this Indian has been told by white people that Wenner-Gren made his millions dealing with human lives.
I say that that statement, Mr. Chairman, is a correct one. I continue:
That during world war II he dealt with the enemy, while also doing business with the allies.
That too is a correct statement, Mr. Chairman. I continue:
Is this gangster, who is worse than Capone, the kind of a man to do business with? What comes after this donation by Bennett may be detrimental to all the people in B.C. We may be enslaved, we must protect our posterity.
This comes from the Indian brotherhood in the interests of British Columbia, their own land. The letter continues:
You can use my name in these allegations because as the chosen leader of my people it is my duty to know and can only find this out through your questions in the parliament of Canada. The query must be directed to all hon. members of the House of Commons, not only the government, because they are the trustees for the Indians of Canada-The land that he is to get is rich in minerals, etc., and will adversely affect the economy of the Indians in that part.
I was asked to raise the matter in the house. That is signed by Andy Pauli, grand chief and president of the North American Indian brotherhood.
I felt it was my responsibility, Mr. Chairman, having received the letter to read it. As I previously stated, it is something to be proud of that our truly native-born Canadian citizens, our native Indians, are concerned
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration about the development of our natural resources, and who develop them. Basically their question is, what power, what influence, what interest has the minister in charge of Indian affairs at this time, to assist them in a situation in which British Columbia is making a deal with a man who, by order in council, was declared a traitor and a person with whom no one could deal during the last war.
I was so interested in the letter and in the other statements made that I checked on the St. Catharines Milling and Lumber Company case, a decision of the privy council, which is to be found in Canadian Constitutional Decisions of the Judicial Committee by Olmsted. I am not going to go into the decision in detail, but I did find some interesting facts in that judgment of the privy council. May I just give a couple of quotations which I feel are important. On page 238, the judgment says:
Documentary evidence was referred to, to show the nature and character of the Indian title. It was contended that the effect of it was to show that from the earliest times the Indians had, and were always recognized as having, a complete proprietary interest, limited by an imperfect power of alienation.
On page 241, we find this:
It is contrary to the spirit of the act to hold that the grant of legislative power-
That is the British North America Act.
-over lands reserved for the Indians carries with it by implication a grant of proprietary right.
I am not going to continue with that, but I do believe sincerely that the North American Indian brotherhood has raised a most interesting, if complicated, question. I do hope that the minister may find it possible, because of her interest in the department over which she exercises jurisdiction, to take note of the situation in British Columbia and the interest of the native Indians of British Columbia in their own proprietary right to develop the resources of the province, who develops them, and perhaps inform the native brotherhood through the medium of what she says in this house as to what their position is and what help they can expect in defending, not only their own hunting and fishing grounds but the natural resources, thereby honouring their ancestors who were the original settlers of that great province.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have two or three questions to ask the minister which I have been directed to ask by some people in Ottawa. Are there any solicitors employed by the department in connection with Indian affairs? If so, what are their salaries and have they passed the necessary examinations to qualify as solicitors in any province of Canada?
1878	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are a few questions I should like to put to the minister before she replies. I do not intend to make a speech, and I am sure she will be relieved to hear that. I think we would all be interested in the most up to date information she has about what is going on on the Six Nations reserve. It did happen, I think it was last night or at any rate very recently, that I was looking at television which I do not very often do. I saw the superintendent of the Six Nations reserve on television. He expressed the view- I am not taking any exception to this or anything of that sort-that the sooner we found out what the people of that reserve really wanted, the better.
As a matter of fact, this had already occurred to me even before I saw this television program. I thought perhaps it would be advisable-I am only putting this forward very tentatively because I think the minister appreciates I have no desire to make any difficulties at all in connection with this matter-to have a plebiscite on the reserve to ascertain whether or not the majority of the Indians want to continue to have an elective council or want to have the restoration of the government of the so-called hereditary chiefs. I know there would be considerable difficulties if the second course happened to be the wish of the people because of the claims that are made by the hereditary chiefs that they are not Canadian citizens and the reserve is not a part of Canada but an independent country.
I have to confess that I do not know whether or not this course has ever been taken or ever been considered. It may be that at one time a decision was made by the courts on this matter. I understand that there was a certain treaty in the time of Sir Frederick Haldimand which had a good deal to do with the status of the reserve and of the Indians living on the reserve. I am wondering if possibly it might be a good idea, by agreement if agreement can be secured, to refer that document and any of the other relevant documents to the supreme court, with a view to getting an authoritative interpretation of them. I imagine there would not be much purpose to be served in doing that unless there was a prior agreement with the parties interested that they would accept an interpretation by the supreme court. It might be impossible to obtain such an agreement.
These two ideas had crossed my mind, and I thought, it would be useful to put them forward. I do not expect the hon. lady to make any particular comment about them. However, I would appreciate it, and I think other members of the committee would, in


view of some of the things that have been happening, if without taking too much time we could be told as much as the hon. lady has in the way of information as to what is occurring.
I am also very much interested in being brought up to date, as I am sure would be other hon. members of the committee, about the progress of the famous expropriations at Caughnawaga. I have spent a good deal of time on, and given a good deal of attention to, this subject, and I am sure the hon. lady has done the same and I would again like to know what the current situation is. While I am not seeking to go underground or anything like that, I would also like to hear a little more about water mains and the sewers, and how they are coming along at Caughnawaga.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I told you all I knew
the other day.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was hoping in the meantime the hon. lady had instructed herself a little more.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I thought I gave a pretty
full answer, but I will see if there is any more information.


John Whitney Pickersgill: 
Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Mr. Chairman, I should like
to ask the minister a question about a matter which has arisen on the Indian reserve at Gleichen. The situation there is one of concern as regards the financial difficulty of the Indians on that reserve. A situation has arisen whereby the Indians, who for a number of years have farmed their own land and built up a capital reserve, now find that that capital reserve has diminished and that they are in such financial difficulty that they are unable to farm their own land. Also, consideration is being given to renting that land to the white man. This is a sort of reflection on the administration of that Indian reserve, either through the failure to have farm management men there to assist and supervise the Indians in the proper management of their land, or it could be due to a number of other causes. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the Indians on that reserve now find it necessary to seek jobs off the reserve in order to gain a livelihood. It seems to me that the Indian affairs branch should, in their wisdom and administration of the affairs of that reserve, give careful consideration, if they have not already done so, to the step which is now contemplated.
That land belongs to the Indians, and I submit that before it is leased to the white man and before long term contracts and commitments are made, the Indians' fundamental problems should be probed to the very depths in order to see if by financial help or other arrangement something cannot be done by this government to bring about a situation on that reserve where these Indians can profitably administer and farm their own land.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I wonder if I might briefly pose a couple of questions to the minister. I understand that we make a grant to the national commission on the Indian Canadians. I would like to know how much that is. I cannot find any reference to it in the details, but it is the amount of the grant we make which I want.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: You will find it under the citizenship branch.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Is it listed as an amount?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, it is not. I will find it for you.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Thank you. My other question is this. On October 30 and 31, 1958 there was a provincial conference of Saskatchewan Indian chiefs and councillors held at Fort Qu'Appelle. I would like to take the liberty, if I may, of reading one of the resolutions passed at that conference. One reads:
We, the chiefs and councillors of the association of Saskatchewan Indians, in conference assembled,
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration request the federal government to undertake a detailed social survey of Saskatchewan Indians to among other things
(1)	gather factual information on the conditions prevailing on all reservations;
(2)	make recommendations as to policies and programs designed to provide for the advancement and improvement of Saskatchewan Indians, and
(3)	determine the most effective methods of implementing these programs.
I wonder if the minister would indicate whether the association of Indian chiefs has officially communicated the contents of this resolution, or the import of it, to the minister, and what action has been taken or is contemplated with respect to the suggestions made therein?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, possibly I could try to answer now some of the questions which have been put in the course of this debate. In so doing, may I thank the hon. members for their interest and say to them that all of the constructive suggestions which have been made will certainly be dealt with by this department, and consideration will be given to them. There are two or three very good suggestions which have come out of the debate today. I might say further that the officials of my department are ready and willing at all times to consult with members who wish to bring to them suggestions, or who wish clarification of existing conditions on any of the reserves.
With reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Skeena, perhaps I should answer his last reference first. The resolution from the conference at Fort Qu'Appelle was forwarded to the branch and we have it. There are certain difficulties in the way of proceeding immediately; the matter is under consideration. I might tell him that it took five years from the time of the first consideration of the report now known as the Hawthorn report on the British Columbia Indians before the study was finally undertaken. These things cannot be done overnight. If my memory serves me well it is now something in the nature of two years since the suggestion was first made that a similar study, or something approximating the same kind of study, be made amongst the Indians in Saskatchewan. We are considering the matter. It is the opinion of those who have studied the Hawthorn report that much of the material in that report is of general interest to Indians right across Canada, and we do not wish to duplicate the work which was put into that report. I can assure the hon. member that the matter is under study at the present time. Eventually there will be a study made, but that will depend upon the speed with which we can arrive at terms of reference establishing such a study.
1880	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration The hon. member asked me about salaries for teachers. I have the schedule here, but I say to him that salaries are the same in all the provinces in Canada with respect to the teachers in Indian schools. I do not have in my hand a schedule of the salaries paid by the province of British Columbia. It may be that in some instances the pay scale is a little lower than British Columbia but I can assure the hon. member it is considerably higher than the salaries in some of the other provinces. Where you have one scale across the country there are bound to be differences where some salaries are under the jurisdiction of provincial governments, but we cannot pay higher salaries for teachers in British Columbia teaching in Indian schools than are paid to those teaching in other schools.

I might say that the schedule I should like to place on record in Hansard, with the permission of the committee, does not include isolation benefits which are paid in certain districts. These are in addition to the amounts mentioned.


Charles Edward Rea: Has the minister permission to place the schedule to which she has referred on record in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Would it be possible for me to peruse this document and make some notes from it at this time?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I shall be glad to send it over to the hon. member. Afterwards we can send it to Hansard.
1958 SALARY SCHEDULE FOR TEACHING STAFF-DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Part 1-Teacher Aides
1	2	3	4	5	6Experience in years	Less than 1 year University	1 year University	2 years University	3 years University	4 years University	5 years UniversityLevels	0	2,000	2,100	2,200	2,300	2,400	2,5001	2,200	2,300	2,400	2,500	2,600	2,7002	2,400	2,500	2,600	2,700	2,800	2,9003	2,600	2,700	2,800	2,900	3,000	3,1004	2,800	2,900	3,000	3,100	3,200	3,3005	3,000	3,100	3,200	3,300	3,400	3,5006	3,200	3,300	3,400	3,500	3,600	3,700
Key:
I-Teachers Aides and Teachers-Based on academic and professional qualifications and teaching; experience teachers of specialist subjects may receive additional $200 per annum for special qualifications (Annual salary paid semi-monthly from September to June).
1^ Community Teachers-Twenty percent in excess amount based on academic and professional qualifications and teaching experience. (Annual salary paid semi-monthly for twelve months).

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration 1958 SALARY SCHEDULE FOR TEACHING STAFF-DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION-Concluded
Part 2-Qualified Teachers
7	8	9	10	11	12	13Experience in years	Jr. Matric + 1 year Teach. Ed. or Recog. Shrt. Course	Sr. Matric + 1 year Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric -h 2 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric + 3 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric + 4 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric -f- 5 years Teacher Ed.	Sr. Matric + 6 years Teacher Ed.Levels	0	2,700	3,000	3,300	3,600	3,900	4,200	4,5001	2,900	3,200	3,500	3,800	4,100	4,400	4,7002	3,100	3,400	3,700	4,000	4,300	4,600	4,9003	3,300	3,600	3,900	4,200	4,500	4,800	51,004	3,500	3,800	4,100	4,400	4,700	5,000	5,3005	3,700	4,000	4,300	4,600	4,900	5,200	5,5006	3,900	4,200	4,500	4,800	5,100	5,400	5,7007	-	4,400	4,700	5,000	5,300	5,600	5,9008	-	4,600	4,900	5,200	5,500	5,800	6,1009	-	4,800	5,100	5,400	5,700	6,000	6,300
Key:
III-	Principals and Assistant Principals-To amount payable in accordance to academic and professional qualifications and teaching experience, add appropriate amount for number of academic classrooms supervised. (Annual salary paid semi-monthly from September to June).
IV-	Community Principals-Twenty percent in excess amount based on academic and professional qualifications and teaching experience and add appropriate amount for number of academic classrooms supervised. (Annual salary paid semi-monthly for twelve months).
I noted what the hon. member had to say with reference to relief payments. I am sure he will agree with me that the schedule now established represents a great improvement over that formerly in effect. I cannot let this opportunity pass without commenting on the fact that last year when this subject was under discussion I maintained, from the available figures, that the average relief payment made was around $14. The hon. member maintained it was $10, and the press of this country picked up that amount and made it known that the amount of relief payments to Indians was $10, despite the fact that I had given a different figure. This year, however, when payments have been increased to a minimum of $22 for the first single adult, the hon. member indicates that this represents a very small increase. He cannot have it both ways. Either his figures last year were wrong or his figures this year are wrong. It must be one or the other. I would point out once again that these figures relate to food only; there are many other things which have to be added to these payments.
The hon. member is quite right in his statement that the sale of liquor to Indians
comes under provincial jurisdiction. However, even before it becomes a matter of provincial jurisdiction the Indians themselves must make their wishes known to the provincial government which in turn makes a request to the federal authorities. Thus I imagine that the statement by the cabinet minister in British Columbia which he read would have reference to the fact that the initiative must come from the Indians if they wish to have the liquor laws changed with regard to the consumption of liquor on the reserves.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Does this provision that the initiative must rest with the Indians themselves form part of the Indian Act?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No. The request must come from the province, but the province naturally does not move until it is sure of what the Indians want.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Is it not true that although the provincial government may request permission, if an opposite request should come from the Indians the government would consider the Indian request before the provincial one?
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Ellen Louks Fairclough: The department is anxious at all times to administer the affairs of the Indians in a manner which will be to their liking and which will further their welfare. Consequently, I think there is some basis for the hon. member's remark.
I might add at this point that during the course of the questions which were asked by the hon. member for Skeena the hon. member for Vancouver East interjected a remark that the government was "a bit touchy" on the liquor question. I can assure the hon. member for Vancouver East that this is not the case at all. This minister is not a bit "touchy" on this subject and when representations are made to the government on this as on all other matters they will be carefully considered and, as the hon. member for Mackenzie River intimated, the wishes of the Indians will be taken into consideration.
The hon. member for Fort William asked whether special consideration could be given to the rehabilitation of tubercular patients in the Thunder bay district. I can assure him that the department will give consideration to this request. It is possible we may be able to establish some sort of centre at the lake-head. We will certainly look into the matter and see what can be done. I am not sure whether I understood the hon. member correctly when he referred to the mothers' allowance, but may I say that Indians do receive mothers' allowances in the province of Ontario. I understood the hon. member to say they did not.


Hubert Badanai: I understood that they were not eligible for the allowance if they lived on the reserves.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That does not matter. They are still eligible.
I should just like to say, further, that the hon. member for Fort William was one of those who has raised a number of points and I can assure him that all the points he raised will receive consideration.
The hon. member for Mackenzie River asked a question about rehabilitation rations. As he knows, these rations are made up on the basis of foods which are needed for the restoration of health. The attitude taken by the department is that they are supplied regardless of cost. It does not matter what the cost is, these rations are available. That is still the policy of the department, with the exception that if the cost of the rations that are being supplied is less than the new cash scale of relief, the cash scale will prevail. It depends on which is greater, the cost of the rehabilitation rations as shown on the schedule or the amount set out as cash relief under the new schedule.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I wonder if the minister would permit me to explain some things that happen which do not always involve her department to any extent. In many cases when an Indian leaves Camsell hospital to return to his home in the Northwest Territories he is not provided with the authorization from the hospital that is necessary in order to obtain from the agent the rehabilitation rations he requires. Even though the agent knows that the Indian has just come from Camsell hospital he is unable to provide him with rehabilitation rations because he lacks authorization from the hospital. Can the minister explain why the present procedure is followed?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the hon. member that it does not sound reasonable. We will look into the matter. It has been left in the past to the discretion of the doctor who releases the Indian to establish his need for special rations but I assure the hon. member we will look into the question.
The hon. member also asked me about the jurisdiction of this department in the Northwest Territories. Indians do come under this department. Where there are existing services in many of the provinces, in some cases the department rents those services rather than setting up duplicate services in those areas. That is true of the Northwest Territories as well as other sections of Canada. It is particularly true in the field of education in the Northwest Territories because, as the hon. member knows, we have an agreement with the northern affairs department to look after education there.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Does the department have a similar agreement with the northern affairs department in respect to the welfare of Indians?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Not at the moment, Mr. Chairman. I do not know whether or not they are planning to make representations to this department to rent their services to us. In any event I can assure the hon. member that this department is handling it at the present time.
I might just say to the hon. member that we found most interesting his suggestion with regard to a works foreman. It is one of the suggestions I referred to as being extremely constructive and useful. We will look into it and I hope something may come out of it.
In reply to the hon. member for Vancouver East I might say that Mr. Andy Pauli is a frequent correspondent of mine; in fact we carry on a rather heavy correspondence. However, I do not appear to have received the letter which Mr. Pauli directed to the hon. member for Vancouver East who read it to the committee today. When requests come to

my desk from Mr. Pauli they are given careful consideration even though sometimes he may not be entirely in accord with my answers. If the lands referred to are Indian reserves of course no one can encroach upon them. If, however, they are not Indian reserves then they come under provincial jurisdiction. That is probably not a specific answer but it is a general one having regard to what I can remember of the letter as the hon. member read it. In any event when we see the letter we shall reply to Mr. Pauli and satisfy him with regard to his problem.
The hon. member for Kootenay West asked me about solicitors in the department. We employ two solicitors, grade 5. One is qualified in Saskatchewan and one in Ontario. The salary range is $7,500 to $8,580. We employ one solicitor, grade 4, qualified in Manitoba whose salary range is $6,840 to $7,860. We have four solicitors, grade 3, of whom three are qualified in New Brunswick and one in Ontario, the salary range being $6,360 to $7,320. We have one officer employed as an administrative officer, grade 2, whose salary range is $5,700 to $6,180 and who is a graduate in law in Ontario. Those are the solicitors employed by the department.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me several questions. Since a great many of them related to education and in view of the fact that the hon. gentleman has been called out of the committee perhaps I could leave those and deal with them when we reach the education vote. Possibly I should defer answering his other questions, too, until we reach the appropriate votes on which they might be answered. The hon. gentleman may have returned to the committee by that time but if he has not returned, Mr. Chairman,
I shall proceed to put the answers on the record.
I was also asked a question by the hon. member for Skeena with reference to the grant to the national commission on Indian Canadians. The sum of $4,000 is provided in the current estimates but, as I said, it comes under the citizenship branch.
The only other question I recall being asked was that raised by the hon. member for Macleod. I should say to him that this is a pretty complicated problem that has developed over the years. I believe that some part of the problem probably arises out of the generosity of the Indians themselves to their brothers. I do not think it is a problem I could deal with in a short space of time in this committee but if the hon. member would like to come to the department we will be glad to give him the full story in so far as we have it. I would also extend this invitation
12, 1959	1883
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to any other hon. members of the committee who have any specific Indian problems, Mr. Chairman.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for her answers and I have just two more questions. I observe that other departments list their solicitors in the details in the estimates book as solicitors but those in this department are listed as administrative officers or some other category. What is the reason for that? My second question is this. Are there any persons in the department doing the work of a solicitor or legal work of any kind without qualifications in Canada?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I can
answer "no" to the last question immediately. If the hon. gentleman will turn to page 145 of the estimates under "Reserves and trusts" he will find the solicitors listed.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I must apologize, Mr. Chairman, I think my eyesight must be failing.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell us if it is the intention of the government to establish the joint committee of this house and the Senate soon? If this proves impossible, does the government intend establishing a royal commission to study the Indian question and bring in at the next session of parliament some fundamental recommendations designed to solve many of the problems that are so apparent in the administration of Indian reserves in western Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am sure on reflection the hon. member would agree with me that you do not get very fast action with royal commissions. It is my hope that the committee which will be set up this year will be able to furnish a great deal of valuable information of a current nature to the department. I hope to present that resolution to the house when we have finished the estimates of the department. It is my hope that we can probably have the personnel of the committee established, with the cooperation of the other parties in the house, so that it could get to work right after the Easter recess; but I can assure him that the matter will be handled with all possible dispatch.


Lawrence Elliott Kindt: Thank you.


Hubert Badanai: I would like to correct a question I asked of the minister regarding mothers' allowances. Instead of mothers' allowances I meant widows' allowances.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not know what the hon. member means because there is no widows' pensions as such for anyone, either Indians or anyone else, except those which are payable under the Pension Act to the widows of service men.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Hubert Badanai: I understand that the province of Ontario pays a widows' allowance to widows.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am not an authority on provincial law, but I can find out about it for the hon. member.


Joseph-Alphonse-Anaclet Habel: Mothers' allowance.
Mr. Hardier I think the federal government pays a portion of the provincial widows' allowance. Earlier the hon. member for Fort William referred to mothers' allowance and I am sure that not only the minister but all of us understood it to mean family allowances.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No.
Mr. Hardier I think what he really meant was widows' allowances paid by the provincial government toward which the provincial government pays.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is precisely what I was talking about. It is known as mothers' allowance. It is paid to women who are either separated from their husbands, or are widows and who have dependent children who need assistance and it is strictly on a means test basis. It is payable to Indians and to non-Indians.
Mr. Hardier Is any part of that allowance paid by the federal government?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: All of these matters come under the Department of National Health and Welfare, but I think I am correct in saying that it is purely a provincial matter.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I must express first appreciation for the information which the minister has given in reply to various questions which were posed. Of course, as I did at the last session, as I will do at this session, next session and ad infinitum, I wish her well in her task of dealing with the Indian affairs branch.
The minister was kind enough to send me over the schedule of teachers' salaries in effect in the Indian affairs branch, but I would point out that when I started my earlier remarks the list that I had in my hand had to do with the 1958 salary schedule for the teaching staff. The minister indicated that this was not correct, that there was a revised one. I discontinued my remarks along that line until I could receive the proper schedule. The one she sent me over is exactly the same as the one I was referring to. It is headed, "1958 Salary Schedule for Teaching Staff-Department of Citizenship and Immigration". This is the one I made reference to when I made my earlier remarks. The one the minister sent me has the very same heading. It gives the classification, the levels


of teachers, the various wage rates that are payable to them based on different factors, and so on. They are precisely the same as the one I have.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I apologize if I misled the hon. member. The schedule was effective on April 1, 1958, and I am afraid I did not realize that that was what he had in his hand.


Harold Edward Winch: I can assure the minister on behalf of this group, in view of this discussion, that what appears in the paper as follows is not correct:
Wallace (Mad Bear) Anderson, a Tuscarora from a reserve near Lewiston, N.Y., told the meeting.
"My reaction is this-she can go jump in the lake. She has previously announced she will have nothing to do with us. This is another example of the forked tongue."


Charles Benjamin Howard: In any event, I can return the schedule that the minister was kind enough to send over and it will be printed in Hansard. Originally I did want to make some reference to the difference between the salary structure payable by the department to those teachers as compared with the salary structure payable in the province of British Coliumbia in two or three of the school districts, specifically those which are in the constituency of Skeena, and to show in a general way that there is a difference and that the salaries paid by the Indian affairs branch here are lower than those which are paid in the province of British Columbia.
I might say that while I selected the salary schedules applicable to school districts within the riding of Skeena, I might point out that in so far as the range of salaries is concerned in all of those school districts, it is higher than those listed here. I have no figures available on this but I think the salaries paid by the department to teachers in Indian schools are on a par with the average throughout Canada and are higher than those paid by some of the school districts in some other provinces. I do not know that. The listing, for instance, under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, I take it, is for a teacher with senior matriculation and one year teacher education. I am informed that it is comparable with E.B. in the province of British Columbia, which means a second-year standing in the college of education. It is the same as a senior matriculant with one year's teaching experience.
I make reference to the Queen Charlotte islands school district. Perhaps permission would be granted to include the salary schedules in Hansard also.


Charles Edward Rea: Has the hon. member the permission of the committee to have these salary schedules included in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Benjamin Howard: The schedules follow:
School District No. 50 (Queen Charlotte)
	1959 Salary Agreement		
Years of			
Experience	E.B.	E.A.	S.C./P.C.0	$3,500	$3,850	$4,2251	3,700	4,050	4,4252	3,900	4,250	4,6253	4,100	4,450	4,8254	4,300	4,650	5,0255	4,500	4,850	5,2256	4,700	5,050	5,4257	4,850	5,250	5,6258	5,000	5,450	5,8259	5,150	10	5,300	School	District No. 55	(Burns	Lake)1959 Salary Agreement	Years of	Experience	E.B.	E.A.	S.C.0	$3,350	$3,650	$4,1501	3,550	3,850	4,3502	3,750	4,050	4,5503	3,950	4,250	4,7504	4,150	4,450	4,9505	4,350	4,650	5,1506	4,550	4,850	5,3507	4,750	5,050	5,5508	4,930	5,250	5,7509	5,110	5,430	5,95010	5,290	5,610	6,150
School District No. 53 (Terrace)
Years of Experience	1959 Salary Agreement E.B. E.A.	P.C.0	$3,425	$3,775	$4,2001	3,605	3,955	4,4102	3,785	4,135	4,6203	3,965	4,315	4,8304	4,145	4,495	5,0405	4,325	4,675	5,2506	4,505	4,855	5,4607	4,685	5,035	5,6708	4,865	5,215	5,8809	5,045	5,395	6,09010	5,250	5,600	6,300With no	years of experience, range 8 of	the Indian	affairs branch	shows	a basic
salary, not taking into account isolation payments or other things which are not taken into account in the ones that I am referring to in British Columbia either, of $3,000 compared with a starting rate for the same grade of teacher, the same number of years experience, in the Queen Charlotte islands, of $3,500, or a difference of $500. In the Burns Lake school district it is $3,350 and in the Terrace school district it is $3,425. The same differences are shown throughout. Generally they range from a difference of $300, $500 to $600 a year as between those paid by the school districts and those paid by the department.
I do not know whether we should accept the condition which exists at the moment or that the salary schedule should be equal throughout all Canada. For instance, under
12. 1959	1885
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration our school system in British Columbia the salary schedules for teachers are not the same in each one of the some 80 school districts. They draw up salary schedules and other conditions, payments and so on, for each school district and they vary. As the committee will notice, they vary between Queen Charlotte islands and Terrace to the extent of about $75 a year during the first year. These differences exist between various school districts in the province. I wonder whether any thought has been given to arranging the salaries of teachers in the Indian affairs branch so that they will equal the salaries paid to teachers in the various provinces. We may find that in maintaining a uniform salary scale we are paying higher salaries in one province and lower salaries in another province. We all know that income is an incentive to teachers and, as has been suggested by others on other occasions, the Indian affairs branch is not able to draw upon the most capable people in the teaching profession if the salary scales remain lower than the salary scales of various school boards in the different provinces.
I certainly suggest that we attempt as much as possible to maintain equality between the salaries paid to teachers employed by the Indian affairs branch and the salaries paid teachers employed by school boards in the various provinces. I know that this cannot be done in each instance and that salaries cannot be kept equal every day of the year because changes take place in school districts and provinces from time to time, but as far as is humanly possible I think we should attempt to maintain the highest level of salaries for teachers in the Indian affairs branch, particularly in view of the fact that their job in teaching native Indian children is more complicated than is the job of teachers of non-Indian children. I hope that the minister will take this suggestion into consideration. I hope that the salary schedules will be revised so as to reflect salaries paid in other parts of the country and so that Indian affairs branch teachers will be placed on a footing as near as possible equal to that of teachers paid by other agencies.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, in all
departments of government civil servants are paid precisely the same regardless of what section of the country they work in with the exception, of course, of northern allowances and things of that nature. Therefore I do not think we can make an exception in the case of teachers. It is true that the salary scales in the provinces of British Columbia and Ontario are probably a little higher than that of the department. In the maritimes
1886	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the department scale is higher and in the other provinces they are just about equal. Therefore they pretty well level out. I can assure the hon. member that the matter of pay scales for teachers is constantly under review and what he has said will be taken into consideration.
Since the hon. member for Bonavista-Twil-lingate has returned, perhaps I might deal with some of the matters he raised. I should like to refer first of all to the situation at the Six Nations reserves. Possibly I had better tell the house what has already become public knowledge since it happened last night after the house rose.
Yesterday on the Six Nations reserve the new Iroquois police, as they style themselves, arrested one of our school teachers, an Indian by the name of George Beaver. They charged him with treason because he had written a letter to a local newspaper criticizing the action of the hereditary chiefs. They incarcerated him in the basement of the council house where they kept him for some time. They finally tried him for treason. I understand they found him guilty and then released him with a warning not to do it again. However, Mr. Chairman, it is my opinion that we must protect Canadian citizens and accordingly I should like to read into the record the telegram which I sent to Joseph Logan, Sr. who has been speaking for the hereditary chiefs. It reads as follows:
Joseph Logan, Esq.,
Ohsweken,
Ontario.
It has been brought to my attention that citizens have been molested and detained by an alleged Indian police force on the Six Nations reserve said to be under the direction of your organization. I am further informed that some of these persons have been subjected to mock trials and in some instances ordered to pay fines.
This type of conduct cannot be tolerated and I must most emphatically advise all those members of the Six Nations participating in and who are responsible for such unlawful conduct that it must cease immediately.
I must further inform you that steps will be taken without delay to restore and maintain peace and order on the Six Nations reserve for the protection and quiet enjoyment of all citizens.
The telegram is signed by the minister. I am not sure whether the hon. member made a suggestion or was thinking out loud, but with respect to his remarks about the proposed plebiscite I may say that is something that has occurred to some of the members of my staff. We have been discussing the matter. I think little would be achieved by proceeding in the heat of the present situation but I draw to his attention also that in any event nothing can be done at the moment because the authority of the hereditary chiefs is being argued at the present


time before the courts in Ontario. Until that matter is settled I think we would be wrong in taking any action.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the hon. lady would allow me to interrupt her for the purpose of obtaining information. How did that case get there? I do not want to say anything about the case but how did it get before the courts? Is my memory failing or is it something that occurred since the hon. lady became minister?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think it was already started when I came into the department. As I understand the situation, and my officials will correct me if I am wrong, the hereditary chiefs challenged the action of the elected council with regard to the sale of a piece of property.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That would have been after my time.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The matter is now before the courts and, of course, we must await the outcome. The hon. member also asked me a question with reference to Caughnawaga. The area expropriated was 1,374.14 acres. The number of individuals entitled to compensation was 217. As of February 24, 1959, settlement has been completed with 198 of them or some 91 per cent and settlements are pending with the other 19. The total amount of compensation paid to individuals as of February 24, 1959, was $2,217,892.20.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Have any of these cases gone into the courts?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, there are none in the courts. I said in the absence of the hon. gentleman that I thought that the rest of his questions had to do with education. Would he like to wait until we reach the education item?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be quite happy to wait until that time. However, another question has been put to me. Perhaps it is a little unfair of me to ask the hon. lady without trying to find out for myself but as she has so much more research staff than I have perhaps she will not mind. It has been represented to me by some Caughnawaga Indians that they are very fearful of this proposed metropolitan Montreal arrangement. They feel Mr. Duplessis is attacking the autonomy of the Caughnawaga reserve. I wonder if the hon. lady knows whether the reserve is to be included in the metropolitan area or definitely excluded?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I can assure the hon. gentleman I have made no changes in the law. As he knows, under the present situation no one can encroach on a reserve, so the Indians are quite safe.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It occurred to me it would, of course, be quite incompetent for the provincial legislature to attempt to legislate a reserve into part of a municipality. I did not think there could be anything in this, but I thought there would not be any harm in asking the question since it had been put to me.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, not at all. As a matter of fact, if my memory serves me well, we did have some correspondence with at least some members of the band in that regard, and gave them that answer.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is another question about Caughnawaga, and that is the question of re-routing the road and re-routing the bridge. Have all problems of that sort been settled with the provincial authorities and with the Indians?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I do not know that they have been settled. The Indians have objected to any change in the road and so long as their objection stands nothing will be done about it. Unless they can come to an agreement, nothing will be done. I believe that some of the provincial authorities wanted to discuss the matter with them, but they were not even amenable to that suggestion so the department does not intend to take any action on the matter so long as the opinion of the Indians is that they want no change.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There were also some expropriations at St. Regis. Have they all been settled?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The area of the reserve expropriated was 140.3 acres; the number of individuals entitled to compensation, 40. All of the settlements have been completed and the total compensation paid was $184,771.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, that is a happy ending.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I have one very minor question before this item passes. It relates not only to this particular vote, but to every other vote in the book. At the last session I urged that something be done about this, and if I could indicate it to the minister now perhaps she could communicate with the authorities responsible for the compilation of the statistical information in the estimates book. What I am suggesting is this: in the second portion of the book containing the details of the services, would it not be possible to arrange to print in that section the number of the vote, just as it is in the front of the book? We find great difficulty in following exactly what vote we are dealing with in the detailed section.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I wondered if I raised the question at this session, perhaps next session and eventually we will be able to have the vote number printed in the detailed sections of the book.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the hon. member will mention it to the Minister of Finance when his estimates are before the committee, he will be putting it to the proper authority.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Will the hon. lady join me?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I shall be glad to.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady will remember that there was a good deal of debate and a good deal of agitation at one time about the completion of the band lists, particularly in relation to certain happenings in Alberta that were ultimately settled in the courts, as they should have been in the first place. There were, the last time I made inquiries, still a few cases pending and I just wondered if the hon. lady could bring us up to date, and let us know if that job is also completed?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is practically completed, Mr. Chairman. The protests remaining are down to two, and we hope that these will be handled to their satisfaction shortly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are these two persons living on the reserve or not living on the reserve? I would be interested in their history. Perhaps I could find a grievance.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The reason they have not been settled is that we cannot locate them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian agencies-
57. Operation and maintenance. $3,728,028.
Charles Benjamin Howard: In connection with this item, page 144, there is an item about three-quarters of the way down the page, listed as allowances. There is quite a substantial increase in the vote, from $40,000 to $100,000. Would the minister give us information on that?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This results from the revised scale of northern allowances.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I believe the hon. member for Mackenzie River wanted to ask a question, although he does not seem to be in the committee at the moment. He wanted to ask about northern allowances to ascertain whether they were on precisely the same scale in Indian affairs as they are in northern affairs.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes, they are precisely the same.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1888	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Reserves and trusts-
59. Operation and maintenance, $367,421.
John Whitney Pickersgill: This is an old favourite of mine, as the minister well knows. Perhaps the minister would like to leave this until we resume at eight o'clock, when she could tell us just where these estates stand. It is one of the most vexing problems, as I found when I was in the department, and I am sure a lot of us hope the situation is improving steadily. I should like to have a fairly detailed report on what the situation is.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think with all the information I have at hand I can manage to give it to the committee before six o'clock. The estates which were concluded in 1956-57 were 1,420; in 1957-58, 1,179; 1958-59-this is just from April to December-the last figure I have is 2,412. Now, in the management of estates opened, in the 1956-57 year we find they were 667; in 1957-58, 702; and in 1958-59, for the same period April to December 31, 508.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Has the hon. lady the global figure for the backlog at present?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: My officials do not have the figures for the backlog at present.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think there are a couple of other questions I should like to ask, so perhaps we could let this stand.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: From the information I gave, the hon. member will realize we are cutting steadily into the backlog.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think it is very encouraging.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: How far we have gone, I could not say at the moment, but I shall try to find out.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 8 p.m.
Charles Edward Rea: We have been discussing item No. 59. Shall the item carry?


Erik Nielsen: Mr. Chairman, I would like to address a few remarks on the first item before it carries. There are a number of items which are of some concern to the Indian people of the Yukon. I want particularly to draw to the hon. minister's attention matters concerning housing, children's aid, welfare payments in isolated areas, education, both schools and hostels, and land. Perhaps I could first refer to the minutes of a meeting held in Whitehorse between the


superintendent of the Yukon agency and five members of the legislative council of the Yukon, as well as Commissioner Collins. At that meeting the main topic of discussion was the matter of welfare payments to Indian people in isolated areas. The following resolution was passed:
Be it resolved, in order that the economic welfare of Old Crow, Ross river and such other areas as may be found necessary at a later date, be better secured, it is desirable to pay to each adult Indian or person living the Indian mode of life, who kills a wolf by means other than poisoning and delivers the pelt to the R.C.M.P., the sum of twenty dollars as a rehabilitation measure for an experimental period of not more than three years. The pelt to remain the property of the person killing the animal.
This matter of welfare I have already discussed with the director of the branch, who has been very helpful and who has given me reason to believe that some sympathy, perhaps, exists in the branch for the people of these rather remote areas, and that they may expect some assistance in this regard.
Another subject which was discussed at this same meeting was the matter of the allotment of land. I would like to call to the attention of the minister the fact that the five members of the legislative council of the Yukon were present at this meeting and all these resolutions were passed unanimously, with the exception of the one concerning the re-establishment of the bounty, and that received unanimous consent with the exception of one voice. This resolution concerning land was passed:
Be it resolved that inasmuch as no treaty exists between the Indians of the Yukon, and the government of Canada, it would seem desirable, with the consent of the Indians of the Yukon, to make some arrangements regarding individual and band land allotments at this time as a measure of security.
This matter of the allotment of land to the Indian people of the Yukon is one which should be of some concern to the minister, as I am sure it is. The time has come when some arrangement has to be made for the Indian people of the Yukon. If it is not the intention of the department to allot tracts of land, which was the normal course followed in other parts of Canada, may I suggest to the minister that consideration be given to setting up band council funds in lieu thereof.
The territorial council at its last session considered these matters, and I have before me a copy of the votes and proceedings of the legislative council which was prepared last year. In debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne, Councillor George Shaw of Dawson said this:
Another matter, Mr. Speaker, that I feel strongly about, is the matter of extermination of predatory

animals, more specifically the wolf. I can quite understand how nature balances the continuity of the different species of animals; however, I do not think that nature always takes into account, in its balancing, the effect that man has created in his need of game animals, either for meat or sport. Accordingly, statistics have proven that caribou are very much decreasing in number; the people who feel the impact of this most severely are the Indian population that subsist primarily on these animals for food and clothing, etc. To assist these people, whose very lives depend on these large herds continuing, I consider it imperative that a bounty be placed on wolves. Such an action without question will substantially deplete the wolves in the area concerned; also will assist the Indian trappers in what is now a most depressed industry.
These remarks of Councillor Shaw may be used to point out the present need for consideration being given to the resolution which was passed at the meeting of December 29, 1958, at Whitehorse. Councillor Shaw brought up another matter at the last session of the legislative council when he discussed the education of young Indian people. In this same debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne, he says:
It is commendable, and I welcome the government's plan, to provide vocational training to the younger Indians; however, it is still necessary that the older members be taken into consideration and assisted in a manner by which they can maintain their self-respect in a type of livelihood with which they are acquainted.
Since the hon. minister assumed office she has caused action to be taken for the construction of a new school at Old Crow. This is extremely commendable. The school is being constructed not only with native materials but with native labour. This will put substantial numbers of breadwinners into this area to work; work which is vitally required at this particular time of the year in view of the fact that in the last year and a half the fur industry has dropped to a new low, thereby severely restricting the range of income which these people have at their disposal. This type of program is recommended for other such projects which are required in other like areas, but in the meantime it is necessary to consider the remoter areas, such as Ross river, and consider the feasibility of following the advice of the legislative council of the Yukon, as well as the commissioner-I may add my own opinion to that-regarding the implementation of these welfare payments in the form of wolf bounties in the remoter areas. This is a new approach to the matter of a wolf bounty. It is not a question of a handout but of a monetary payment in the form of a welfare grant which, at the same time, assists in the control of predatory animals.
I pass on quickly to the matter of children's aid. I believe the hon. minister was presented with a brief by the Southern Yukon
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Children's Aid Society. This is an organization which was formed recently. When I say recently, I should say in the last three or four years. This organization has done more to alleviate suffering and hardship among the infant population in the Yukon than any other organization of which I am aware. This is an organization which until now has been entirely supported by private subscription; that is to say, it has had no connection with the government. A surprising fact is that 74.6 per cent of the cases that were handled by this society during the period January, 1958 to October, 1958 were cases involving Indian children, Indians of white status or halfbreeds. At the moment this organization is gaining support only by private subscription. The brief which was presented by the children's aid society asked for government financial help. I think, Mr. Chairman, this is a matter which deserves the very special consideration of the minister. I simply quote the last paragraph of the brief which was presented in order to show the need for the immediate consideration of the request made by this organization. It reads:
Though we have never previously requested financial aid from the department, the society now has to request an annual grant, despite generous contributions from the public. Our work has increased four-fold, necessitating additional paid help, rental of an office, and many other expenses. Our whole program is expanding and we will need more financial support from the departments of the government we are serving. The amount we are asking is $3,000 annually. A brief has been submitted to the territorial government requesting an increase in our annual grant, and if we fail in our efforts to obtain these, our treasurer reports that we shall be forced to cease to function after May 1959.
I commend this request to the minister's special consideration, because without such aid the society, as it has said, will be forced to discontinue this work. I know that the minister and all hon. members will agree that this is an effort that is deserving of every possible support.
I should like to conclude my remarks by referring to the minutes of a conference of Indian delegates which was held at Whitehorse on June 10, 1958. I believe the director of the branch, who has done such wonderful work in the Yukon in the last two years, was in attendance at that meeting. The Indian delegates who represented their various bands at this meeting brought up matters ranging from housing, education and aid to trappers, to bounties and refrigeration. In fact, the whole field of Indian affairs was covered. Two or three of the outstanding features of the ensuing brief deserve particular consideration.
One refers to the fact that unemployment insurance is not now available to two classes

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration of Indian people in the Yukon, and I assume this also applies elsewhere. The first class of people affected are Indian trappers, and the second are those engaged in forest firefighting duties. The Indian people feel that unemployment insurance should be paid to Indian people who are engaged in trapping and firefighting on the same basis as it is paid to those engaged in fishing. They believe that when trappers or firefighters are out of work they are entitled to receive unemployment insurance.
There is one further matter which is of some importance and which I should like to include as having been among the subjects dealt with, at the meeting on December 29, by the legislators of the territorial council. This concerns the need for an Indian placement officer, and a recommendation to this effect was unanimously supported at that meeting. Again I say that this represents the view of the Commissioner of the territory and of the five members of the Legislative Council of the Yukon, in addition to the heads of the two main branches of the church up there, and many other people. Bishop Coudert who is the bishop of the Roman Catholic church in the Yukon, said specifically that there is a need for a placement officer in the Yukon agency. This particular request was also made by the various Indian people who made up the delegation which attended the meeting last July. Bishop Coudert also stated that there is a need for the Indians and halfbreeds in the Whitehorse area to be provided with additional houses. I know that the minister is making progress in this regard, and I should like to commend her on this work.
Bishop Greenwood of the Anglican church reiterated the need for an Indian placement officer. He said, further, that the care of old and disabled Indian people presented a problem. He also expressed the feeling that steps should be taken in order to permit the inclusion in the bands of some illegitimate children of Indian women born between September 1951 and August 1956 in addition to legally adopted children. This is very important because unless these people are classified as Indians they cannot attend the schools set up specifically for Indian children; they are neither white nor Indian as far as the definition given in the Indian Act is concerned. Unless they fall within the definition given in the act they are denied the right of access to the Indian schools. They are also being denied the right of access to the hostels which are being constructed at the moment in Whitehorse, so

they cannot come into Whitehorse from outlying points and attend the new schools, because they have no place in which to live.
There is a very pressing need for something to be done about this situation. It is something which requires immediate attention. I think this view has been expressed by Commissioner Collins and by others in the Yukon and I would suggest that the minister give this matter every consideration prior to the opening of these new hostels and the school in Whitehorse, because otherwise these children would be denied the educational facilities which are being provided.
One further thing which came out of this meeting last June at which the director was in attendance was a statement by an Indian delegate that more liaison work could be done with regard to the integration of the Indian people into jobs in industry. This, once again, emphasizes the need for the establishment of an Indian placement officer in the Yukon. It seems odd that there should be more government employees concerned with the administration of forests and wild life in the Yukon than are concerned with the welfare of the Indian people. I trust the situation will not continue to be as it has been over the past 30 years.
With regard to the question of freezers there are, I believe, two freezers being built in the Yukon in different locations, but there is need for one in Dawson. Perhaps I could do no better here than quote from the remarks which were made last June at the conference which was held with the chief of the Dawson band. The latter said this absence of freezer facilities was a matter for regret. Apropos of this, an amusing story was told by Chief Charlie Mason. An Indian agent once had locker-freezers built in two places. One was not a place where a freezer was needed. An Indian from a place that needed a freezer locker said, "Why did you build one in that town?" The agent said, "I made a mistake". The Indian said, "I wish you would make a mistake and build one in our place." Dawson natives hope that soon a mistake will be made and a freezer put in Dawson for the native people commented Chief Mason.
I could do no better than conclude with the words of that chief as set out in these minutes:
It would seem that the native wants many things. It is true. He feels he has been robbed of his land and his livelihood and not much has been given in return. He feels that nobody cares much for his adjustment to the new way of life. Some people work and help but they have not the money or the time or the authority to do much. The native needs more understanding. We feel we should have an assistant agent living in Dawson who will be with us from day to day. The agent

could help us and teach us better and make us happier. Our people are getting more and more in number every year. The agent should be able to give us help now before the problems get too big.
Chief Mason continues:
Sometimes the agent says he is too busy in Whitehorse to come to Dawson. The department is like the candidate for parliament who visited Old Crow.
I may say that the chief is not speaking about me here, he is speaking about my then opponent.
He got off the plane. He said to the people "I am sorry I am late. For five days there was bad weather." One of the men said, "That is too bad. Did you have bad weather for the nine years before that?"
Mr. Jutras helps us out a lot and is thinking a great deal about us, but the head of his department should give him authority to put a man in Dawson. For too long the government has been away from us and has not come to help us. Mr. Meek was a good agent too, but he needed more help. So we think it is important to have an agent or representative for the agent in Dawson.
I thank you for listening to this our letter from Dawson natives. We hope that you will consider it with sympathy.
These are not isolated ideas, but are common and shared by all the Indian people of the Yukon. The problems have been stated before and I commend them to the minister for her sympathetic attention.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, in regard to what was said concerning the people at Old Crow by the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat may I say that I am sure he knows these people come under the Indian agency which is in part of my riding and I am sure from now on they will looked after properly and very well.
Before the evening recess the minister replied to some of the suggestions I proposed early in the afternoon. I noted that she said there was some merit in the hiring of works foremen in the various settlements in the north. I wonder if the minister would give an opinion as to some of the other suggestions I made. In particular I should like to have her comments on my suggestion concerning the payment of salaries to Indian chiefs who would work in co-operation with the works foremen in selling government policy to the native Indians. I am sure the minister and the officials of the department realize how valuable it would be to have the co-operation of the chiefs in these settlements when projects are undertaken which are aimed at bringing the Indians out of their present condition into a better world.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt the hon. member. He raised the subject on the first item of this department, No. 56, and I did answer him at that time. True enough, I did not deal with every suggestion
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration he made but I suggest to him that he is now re-hashing an item which has been passed. All of the suggestions he made will be considered by the department.
At this moment, Mr. Chairman, I am uncertain whether we are considering item No. 59 or 60. I thought No. 59 was passed but it appeared to me that the hon. member for the Yukon was directing his remarks entirely to No. 60. Possibly we could straighten that out now.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I do not wish to disagree with the minister or with the Chair but I believe we are considering item No. 59 at the present time.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: We are on item No. 59 at present.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If we are on No. 59, Mr. Chairman, I should like to answer the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. I thought we had passed that item but since we are still on it perhaps I could tell the hon. gentleman that we can only estimate the backlog of estates. About three years ago there were approximately 9,000 and it has now been reduced to approximately 5,000. I am expressing this in round figures, of course. The hon. gentleman will understand that it is a little difficult for us to arrive at an exact figure. To do so would require careful review of a large number of old estates. Sometimes when a new estate is opened it in turn reflects upon or has some bearing upon an old estate until a few matters are cleared up concerning the old estate, and so on. While not entirely satisfactory the figures show a rather remarkable improvement over the last three years, let us say.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister is quite
satisfied now that she has a good organization for dealing with this?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: When I was minister I often said I was thoroughly dissatisfied with the situation and I attempted to do a great deal to improve it. I am glad to hear it is working itself out.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sure the hon. member will understand that once you start to improve a thing it snowballs-


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am only too happy to take the credit, Mr. Chairman.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I might say it looks very encouraging now. We are on our way to cutting a large slice out of this backlog and I believe over a period of time it will eventually come down to a much smaller figure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1892	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Welfare of Indians-
60. Operation and maintenance, $6,817,932.
Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I feel that some of the questions I asked this afternoon relating to the welfare of Indians have not been answered and I wonder if the minister will consider this an appropriate item under which to comment on those matters?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, at six
o'clock I checked all my notes and I thought I had answered the hon. member in every respect except in a couple of instances where the hon. gentleman raised questions that obviously I could not answer off the cuff. It is necessary to have consultation with the department on some of these matters. I cannot give him an offhand answer on some of these issues. As far as I am aware I have answered every question he posed that could possibly be answered orally.
I wish now to say a few words with respect to the questions raised by the hon. member for the Yukon who made some serious suggestions. I might tell him the matter of unemployment insurance does not come under the jurisdiction of this department and he will have to raise his questions when the estimates of the Department of Labour are called. We are attempting to have placement officers stationed at all places where they may be usefully employed. We are gradually placing them in areas where they have not been placed heretofore and I hope we will get around to the Yukon shortly.
The matter of co-operation with the children's aid society is under active consideration and I think will come to a successful conclusion very shortly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the hon. lady going to tell me about my cash relief, Mr. Chairman?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had dealt with that question early in the afternoon. Perhaps the hon. gentleman would care to repeat his question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. lady has dealt with it, I apologize. I was out of the chamber for a little while and she may have answered it during my absence.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, with all due deference may I say that I was present this afternoon and I cannot recall that the hon. lady commented on several of the suggestions I offered. I should like to have her comments on my proposal with regard to her department supplying to the Department of Transport a list of graduates from vocational training schools who could operate equipment for that and other departments on contract work. I should like to have her speak about my suggestion concerning the payment of a salary to Indian chiefs who 

would work as, shall I say, straw bosses or assistants to the works foremen. I do not recall that she gave an opinion with respect to my proposal about having the Department of Fisheries conduct surveys on inland lakes to see if they are suitable for commercial fishing by Indians. There was also the suggestion about providing equipment to assist Indians wishing to engage in commercial fishing on Great Slave lake and other related questions.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, with respect I submit that I did answer those questions in a general way. The hon. member knows that I cannot answer for other departments of government. I did tell him that every suggestion he made would be very carefully considered. Some of the suggestions he made I am sure he himself in all fairness would not expect me to answer immediately without consultation with my department and without full consideration of the implications of some of the rather drastic ones that he did make. As to some of the suggestions he made, I would ask him to give the department a chance to digest what he has asked and not press for an answer now because, in any event, I cannot give an answer particularly to problems which have interdepartmental implications.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I will take for granted that the minister agreed with what I said. I personally did not think that some of the questions, particularly those in regard to employment by the Department of Transport in the filling of vacancies and so on, were answered but I will look forward to reading Hansard tomorrow to see what the minister did say in this respect.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Possibly I did not answer that particular one, but I can tell the hon. member that this department has circularized to all departments of government a plea to employ Indians wherever possible. We have met with considerable success in a great many parts of the country. I do not think any steps have yet been taken with regard to circularizing subcontractors but we are taking that into consideration. I can assure him that this department is pressing as hard as it can to employ Indians wherever possible in the areas in which they are resident.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I asked this afternoon whether a placement officer would be located in the Northwest Territories.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I answered that really when I was answering the hon. member for the Yukon. We are hopeful of placing officers in those various sections of the country as quickly as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Economic development of Indians-
62. Operation and maintenance including an amount of $5,700 for grants to promote Indian agriculture, handicrafts and economic enterprises generally, $867,272.
John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady knows exactly what I am going to ask her on this item. I want to know whether a successor has yet been appointed to Mr. Mel Jack, and whether she is satisfied with him and what is he doing?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am very sorry to say that there has been no successor appointed as yet. I am most regretful about that. We have held two competitions but, as the hon. member very well knows, this is a position which requires a peculiar kind of specialized background. He was fortunate enough to secure a man who had that kind of background. If he can suggest to me one who can take his place I can assure him that I will treat his suggestion with the greatest consideration because I would like to find someone right at the moment who could really do the job.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I can suggest to the hon. lady that she could not do any better than to get Mr. Jack back. I do not know anybody in the country who is likely to do the job better than he did and I would certainly like to see him back there.


George Harris Hees: I can assure you that he will not be back.


John Whitney Pickersgill: He will be after a while, but not for two or three years. In the meantime, of course, the hon. lady has to get somebody else. I suggest that probably one of the difficulties is that it is very hard to convince the hon. lady's neighbour who sits in the chair next to hers that an adequate salary should be paid for the position.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I would not argue that point with the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, but I think we are agreed on one thing, namely that this is a most difficult post to fill. Now that the hon. member has been answered by the Minister of Transport I think he realizes what I am up against.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Quite; I understand.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, this afternoon the minister said that her department would continue, regardless of what the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources was doing, their setup of industrial and economic welfare in the Northwest Territories. She did say at that time that the Indian affairs division could ask for and pay for services provided by other departments in the north. If she is considering the fact that the Indian affairs division will ask the Department of Northern Affairs and National 66968-9-120
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Resources to take over this responsibility of economic development of Indians in the Northwest Territories I would hope that she would make it very plain to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources that we do not want any long-haired Ph.D.'s. Make it clear to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources that we want practical men hired for these positions, men who will be looking after the welfare and the economic conditions of the Indians in the north, people who have lived with the Indians, know their conditions and are interested in doing something about them, not graduates of the University of Toronto who have never been outside of this so-called inside lavatory age in which we are living, but people who have had some experience in living in the outside lavatory age in which the Indians are living.


An hon. Member:: You are hired.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Education-
64. Administration, operation and maintenance, $17,734,854.
James Stanley Speakman: Mr. Chairman, on this item I would like to do something this evening which nobody appears to have done. I would like to congratulate the minister on the work of her department in education for Indians. I would also like to make just one minor inquiry. In my constituency at the present time a building is almost completed which will contain 166 new classrooms and it is being constructed on the reservation. Many requests have been made for additional school space. I do not see any appropriation set aside either in the minister's estimates or in the estimates of the Department of Public Works. Has any consideration been given to the provision of this additional space on the Hobbema Indian reserve?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, this really comes under item 65. Would the hon. member wait until item 65 is called? In the meantime I could possibly answer the questions put to me this afternoon by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate with reference to the scholarships scheme. I presume he wanted to know what scholarships had been given and to whom. I wonder whether he would be satisfied, rather than have me read off this long list, if I had the list included in Hansard?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would be quite happy about that.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Has the minister permission to have the list placed in Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The list follows:

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration



SCHOLARSHIPS AWARDED TO INDIAN STUDENTS 1958-59

[Stage Direction]
Name of Winner	Type of Scholarship
Joe Louis Bear		Senior Matriculation
Valerie Joy Crawford		Teacher Training...
Cecilia Curotte		Nursing	
Pkilomene Desterres		Teacher Training...
Woodrow Michael Good-	
striker		Vocational Training.
Margaret Theresa Gould..	Nursing	
Lena Johnson		Teacher Training...
	
	
Helen Marie Nanowin. .. .	Nursing	
Joseph James Paupanekis.	Vocational Training.
Alice Elsie Pierre		Vocational Training.
Howard Edwin Staats....	Senior Matriculation
Robert Staats		Vocational Training.
Marcel Vollant		Vocational Training.
Joanne Wallace		Vocational Training.
Course	Educational Institution
Radiological
Technician	 Regina General Hospital (and
Regina College)	
Teacher Training. Hamilton Teachers' College,
Hamilton, Ontario	
Nursing	 St. Mary's Hospital, Montreal
Teacher Training. Ecole Normale de Matane, Matane, Quebec	
Automobile Service Technology. Provincial Institute of Technology and Art, Calgary. ...
Nursing	 St. Rita's School of Nursing,
Sydney, N.S	
Teacher Training. Did not enroll Scholarship withdrawn	
Nursing	 St. Thomas General Hospital,
St. Thomas, Ontario	
Nursing	 St. Boniface School of Nursing,
St. Boniface, Manitoba....
Architectural
Draughtsman... Manitoba Technical Institute,
Winnipeg, Manitoba	
Commercial	 Did not enroll Scholarship
withdrawn	
2nd Year Arts

 University of Toronto	
Electronics	 Hamilton Institute of Technology. Hamilton, Ontario.. Radio Technology Teccart Institute, Quebec, Quebec	
Commercial	 Fredericton Business College,
Fredericton, N.B	
Amount
[Stage Direction]
1,000.00
700.00
500.00
750.00
670.00
500.00
420.00
500.00
750.00
1,000.00
750.00
750.00
650.00
John Whitney Pickersgill: I still hope the minister will say a little about it. Has it been a success?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We think it has been a success. The only thing that bothers me about these scholarships is that there are not enough of them. I feel very strongly on this and I have said to many people in important places that there is a great deal of latent talent among the Indians. It is not only talent for administration, for teaching, for nursing, but also for the arts. I have already taken some initial steps which I might say involve merely an approach to individuals.
My hope is that in the next couple of years I will be able to encourage young people to come forward and demonstrate their talents in these fields. I may say that we have already taken steps within the department to instruct our teachers throughout Canada to be on the lookout for special skills and talents so that these young people may be encouraged in their early school years to develop the talents they have been given in order that they may have the same opportunities as children in non-Indian schools across Canada to secure scholarships and other assistance which will further their advance in the field of their own particular aptitudes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think there was another question I asked the hon. lady about school integration.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh yes. While the officials are looking up the actual figures I might just say that progressively each year more and more Indian students attend non-Indian schools, and we think that the further integration of Indian students with non-Indian students is a progressive step, as I know the hon. member also thought when he was the minister of this department. I do not know whether we have any specific figures which I can give. I find that at the present time there are 8,429 Indian students in non-Indian schools out of a total of 38,836 Indian students. In other words, almost 25 per cent of our Indian students are studying in nonIndian schools.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is that percentage up much from a year ago?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
48. Departmental administration, $774,401.
John Whitney Pickersgill: On item 48 I want to ask the minister a couple of questions I overlooked. I promised the minister I would not

make another speech on this item and I do not intend to but there is one question I had intended to ask. There is a press digest put out by the citizenship branch-I was going to call it a publication but perhaps I should not-of the press in Canada other than English and French. I am sure the hon. lady will not have the information here now but on a later occasion I wonder whether she would table information as to who receives this publication and who is capable of receiving it.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I would be very glad to. We have had quite a call for this particular publication. I am sure the hon. member knows what would be involved in making it available to a great number of people.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not think that would be particularly desirable but it is, of course, prepared through the use of public funds. I know that the hon. lady knows that it has the word "restricted" on it. I suppose that merely means that the circulation is restricted, not that security is involved in it.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Of course, one of the difficulties is that we do not claim that this is a verbatim translation. It is only a description of what our translators think is meant by the article and any extended distribution would have to be more specific than that. At the present time, if my memory serves me well, it is only a mimeographed sheet. There is a limit to the number of copies you can mimeograph. I will be glad to give the hon. member the information and if he has any suggestions to make we will be very glad to consider them.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is one other question. We were rather diverted when we were considering the citizenship item by some discussion that was not perhaps strictly relevant to it, and I therefore failed to ask the hon. lady, who succeeded in scoring off me a little bit on that occasion, if she would be willing to give the assurance that in such cases as I referred to there would not be deportations in the future unless the circumstances were very exceptional indeed.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member knows, one of the problems of the department is that once you break a rule you establish a precedent.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I know that very well.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Where there are humanitarian aspects involved I can assure him that in every case I do a great deal of soul searching about the matter.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am referring only to those cases where young children who are
66968-9-120J
Supply-Citizenship and, Immigration Canadian citizens are involved. As the hon. lady knows, the number of those cases is very small and I really do not think the precedent there is of any importance whatever.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that even though these children leave the country they are still Canadian children. They are always Canadian children and they are Canadian citizens. They can come back to this country at any time at all. Just how far one goes in condoning the actions of irresponsible parents I do not know. After all, there are people in this country who blight the lives of their children by their own acts. Just how far we go in forgiving parents for their actions because of the fact that they have small children, I do not know. We do not absolve a man from serving his sentence simply because he has children at home. All these things have to be considered. I know the hon. member will realize that I am speaking very much off the cuff without serious consideration of the problem at the moment, but I can assure him that in every one of these cases very serious and soul searching consideration is given.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to say one
more word on the subject. I expressed regret and am very glad to repeat the regret I expressed if in any case I was in fact responsible, as the hon. lady seemed to establish I was-I have not been able to look at the files and I take her word for it-for deporting people who were undoubtedly technically deserving of deportation and thereby exiling Canadian children or causing them to be deserted by their parents. However, I do not think we should do that any longer and, as the hon. lady points out, it is precisely because these children remain Canadian citizens that I think it is all the more important that they should be allowed to grow up in Canada. Whatever the balance of advantage and disadvantage may be, if these children are going to remain Canadian citizens as they are, surely it is more desirable from the point of view of Canada that they should be brought up here in Canada irrespective of what rights there may be in the matter.
As I pointed out, after we established assisted passage loans for dependents, it happened a good many times that we discovered in the department that there were cases of children whose parents had been deported in the 30's because they were on relief, who had been brought up in another country and wanted to come to Canada and could not even get assisted passage loans
1896	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration because, being Canadian citizens, they were not immigrants. Of course, we changed the law and fixed that up.
These cases occur very rarely, as the hon. lady knows. After all, deportation is not a punishment, it is the carrying out of the immigration law. The hon. lady does not conduct trials any more than I did. She reaches an opinion as parliament has asked her to do and deportation should not be regarded as a punishment. It is removing from this country someone whom parliament did not think was desirable as a permanent resident of Canada. I do not question that, on balance, perhaps some of these people are not desirable but if they happen, though undesirable, to be the parents of infant Canadian children who are Canadian citizens it seems to me that the balance should be swung the other way.


Leon David Crestohl: In speaking of deportation, I should like to ask the minister whether or not there has been any change in the procedure with respect to telling a person ordered deported the reasons for his deportation.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The deportee knows the reasons for his deportation.


Leon David Crestohl: No, the deportee does not know. I have to respectfully differ with the minister. The reasons why he is being deported are not given to the deportee. I should like to draw to the attention of the minister that this is a serious matter and very serious complaints on this subject were made by the present Prime Minister when he sat on this side of the house, and also by the present Minister of Justice. This was one of their basic and most serious charges against the immigration department at that time. They stated that the failure to give reasons to the deportee caused grave injustice.
I should like, for example, to quote the words of the present Minister of Justice as found at page 1158 of Hansard for February 15, 1955. He said:
There is concern and dissatisfaction not only with respect to the over-all policy of the government relative to immigration, which indeed is difficult to determine, but also because of the practices of the government in administering that department, the result of which is to create injustices, hardship, and inequities.
In speaking of a special case he said that the applicant had a right to know the reasons for the refusal to admit his relative. If the minister will permit me-


Ellen Louks Fairclough: May I just interrupt here for a moment, if the hon. member will permit. This is precisely the point I was about to make. He is talking about admissions, which
[Mr. Pickersglll.1

is an entirely different thing from deportation. On deportation, it is true that in some cases the evidence is not spelled out completely but the deportee knows under what section of the act he is being deported.


Leon David Crestohl: I apologize to the minister. There is a difference between not giving reasons to a deportee and not giving reasons why a relative is not admitted into Canada. Has there been a change in the regulations whereby the department tells the relative in Canada, the Canadian citizen who is bringing someone to Canada, the reasons why the relative is not admitted?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, there has been no real change yet, although the matter has been under intensive study ever since this government came into power, but it is a most complicated and difficult problem. I believe that in many of these cases the applicant for admission to the country knows the reason for refusal. In some cases, it is possible to tell the sponsor that the applicant knows the reason and if he will ask the applicant for the reason he can tell him. Sometimes the applicant is not willing to divulge to his sponsor what he knows to be the case, and over that we have very little control.


Leon David Crestohl: I must again respectfully differ with the minister; that is not the fact as I have learned in some cases. I shall again quote the words of the present Minister of Justice as found at page 7162 of Hansard for August 7, 1956, when he made this very direct statement:
I refer, of course, particularly to the refusal of the department to inform prospective immigrants who are rejected of the reasons for their rejection, which practice is carried over in a number of cases to a refusal to inform people who land in Canada and against whom orders for deportation are made of the reasons for those orders. We have said before and we say again that this practice is absolutely unjustified, that it is contrary to the principles of justice upon which this country's system rests.
That was the position taken by the Minister of Justice at that time. I have similar quotations from the Prime Minister. I agree with the statements made by the Minister of Justice and the Prime Minister when they sat in opposition. I want to know if, since they now have the power to remedy these defects which they did not have when they sat in opposition, anything has been done in that direction?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: There are two things I should like to say. First of all, in making these remarks when this party was in opposition the present Minister of Justice did admit in this house that he realized it was a very serious and complex problem. When

he came into the government he was Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration in addition to being Minister of Justice. One of his first acts was to set up a committee to study this matter.
I dealt with this the other day when we were on citizenship-I do not know if the hon. member was in the house at the time- and I did say with regard to establishing judicial or quasi-judicial boards that the question was still being considered. It has been considered by a cabinet committee for some time now but a definite decision had not yet been reached. I can assure my hon. friend it is a matter of great concern to this government. We are considering it carefully and we hope we will arrive at a solution to the problem. However, I am sure that like the Minister of Justice my hon. friend will agree with me that it is not a problem easy of solution.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am pleased to hear the hon. lady say that, and she would not expect me to sit here without saying a word about it. While the Minister of Justice did, on one occasion, after I had made a patient explanation, say that it was a difficult problem, no such admission was ever obtained from the Prime Minister, who used far more extreme language about the inhumanity and the brutality of the administration when I was minister. I am very glad to hear the hon. lady say that under the Prime Minister's leadership the same inhumanity and brutality are still being practised.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That I do not concede.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John Whitney Pickersgill: It is true, just the same.



NATIONAL FILM BOARD

[Stage Direction]
234. Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $4,361,772.
Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, on August 28 last when I presented the estimates of the national film board for the current year, I gave the house figures concerning the distribution activities of the board in 1957-58. These figures appear in the annual report for 1957-58 which I tabled at the opening of this session.
Concerning the distribution of Canadian film abroad, I should like to mention that a senior representative of the national film board recently visited Central and South America. While there he had the opportunity to meet the heads of posts in that area at a meeting which was held when the Secretary of State for External Affairs was in Rio de Janeiro in November. The chairman of the national film board has just told me that as a result of the trip a number of interesting
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration opportunities for the expansion of Canada's information program in Latin America through the distribution of films are being studied in co-operation with the Department of External Affairs.
In the parliamentary appropriation presented for your consideration two-thirds of the increase is required to cover the additional cost of maintaining existing activities and the balance represents the cost of extension of activities and new projects. In December last I had the opportunity of spending a full day at the national film board's operational headquarters in Montreal. I was very much impressed with what I saw and, on behalf of the board, I should like to convey to the members of this house an invitation to visit the Montreal premises. I hope that time may be found during this present session for one or several groups of members to go to Montreal for this purpose.
(Translation):


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Chairman, last year I invited the hon. Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mrs. Fairclough) to visit the beautiful and great riding of Dollard at the time she called at the national film board offices. She now tells us tonight that she did come to my constituency to visit those buildings and even kindly asked hon. members to do likewise.
I take this opportunity on my own behalf, as member for Dollard, to invite all hon. members to meet me when they visit the national film board offices. This will give me an opportunity to show them the beauty spots in my riding.
(Text):
Mr. Chairman, the role of the opposition, as I understand it, is to scrutinize, and then scrutinize again, the acts of the government and of the different branches of the government. It is also the role of the opposition, to my mind, to criticize the government when criticism is justified. It is also the duty of the opposition to make suggestions to the government, on occasion suggestions which do not seem to be taken into consideration by the present government.
However, I find myself tonight in the pleasant position of going on record as commending the national film board for the excellent job they are doing. In studying the estimates of the national film board I find no room for criticism. The board, as I said, is doing a very excellent job, and I wish tonight to congratulate the film board commissioner and the members of his staff for their achievements in recent years. In going through the last annual report of the national film board I noticed with satisfaction an increase in production. Eighty more films
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration have been produced, bringing the total of films produced to 225. There is also an increase of 1.5 per cent of film processed; and there also has been an increase in personnel. I have noticed with great satisfaction from the annual report of the national film board that the board has received in the last year 27 awards across the world. This should be a matter of pride not only to the hon. minister responsible for the national film board and the chairman of the board, but also to those who have produced those films and the people of Canada at large. I would ask the hon. minister and the commissioner to express our appreciation to the members of the staff of the board.
During a visit he made to the national film board, His Excellency the Governor General of Canada said:
The national film board does, and must. I feel, play a vital part in making Canadian conscious of their country and what is going on in it.
I am convinced that hon. members of this house will bear me out when I say the board is doing a very excellent job in achieving the aims proclaimed by His Excellency. I am not always in agreement with the hon. lady in her actions or speeches, but I want to praise her tonight for continuing to give her good support to the film board, as was so well done by her predecessor, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.
(Translation):
As I said at the beginning of my remarks, Mr. Chairman, last year I invited the hon. minister to come and visit the constituency of Dollard. I was glad to learn tonight that between the sessions she visited the national film board. Let me extend to her the same invitation this year. I hope she will come back to the national film board, and that I shall have the pleasure of welcoming her personally in the constituency of Dollard. The hon. minister may rest assured that she will not be resquested, as was done elsewhere, to go jump in the lake, because there is no lake in the constituency of Dollard. Besides, all the citizens of the constituency of Dollard, including its representative in the house, have much regard for the hon. minister. And if it should happen that, during the hon. minister's visit to Brant'ord, she was thrown into the lake, I would be one of the first to go to her rescue, as I would be one of the first to make sure she is quite alive, so that she might look after her department. But, Mr. Chairman, I would also be the first to keep putting questions to her about the administration of her department. And while I am on the subject I should like to ask a few questions in connection with the administration of the national film board.

During the dispute, which was fortunately settled recently, between C.B.C. producers and the C.B.C., television fare throughout the strike consisted of films, produced here and there, which were purchased by the C.B.C. French network, to be shown later to the people of Canada. 1 do not know how many films were bought from the national film board, so I should like to ask her: how many films were bought from the national film board?
The national film board has produced some excellent French films and I would ask the minister if the necessary steps were taken to sell as many films as possible to the C.B.C. so they could be shown over its French network.
I was saying a moment ago that I do not always agree with the actions and statements of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I had occasion, a few weeks ago, to voice a vigorous protest against a speech the hon. lady made in Toronto, in which she said that our national anthem is not "O Canada".
(Text):


Paul Léo Maurice Johnson: On a point of order. (Translation):


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member will arm himself with patience, he will see that I am perfectly right, and also in order, because I want to suggest to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration that she ask the directors of the national film board to do whatever is required to produce a film about our national anthem "O Canada". (Text):


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Chairman, I just have a brief question I would like to put to the hon. minister. About two years ago when these estimates were before the house I raised the question of the possibility of the national film board filming a play called "Patriots", written by a prominent Canadian author, Judge Eric Cross of Woodstock. I might say the play is required reading in the public schools of Ontario, and it concerns the period in Canadian history from 1837 to 1848. It is a remarkable play in many ways, chiefly because it is historically accurate and it is also very good theatre. You do not often find this combination in many historical plays. At that time the then minister said he would recommend my suggestion to the national film board. I believe a year later I again raised the question, and I understand at that time that negotiations had been going on with Judge Cross for the purpose of producing the play. Since then I have not heard very much about it, and I was wondering if the hon.

minister could tell us whether they are going to produce it, or what the state of things is in this matter.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words on this item. First of all, I give my support to the words of commendation for the work being done by the national film board, as expressed by the hon. member for Dollard. I am sure there is a growing recognition and understanding of the work which is being done by the national film board and of its value to Canadians generally, particularly in the production of these very excellent documentary films which are making it possible for Canadians to know Canada much better, both its history and geography, and also making it possible for persons living in other countries to know Canada.
As far as my own constituency is concerned, the film councils are increasing in membership and activity, and undertaking more work every year. I must say to the minister that the work of the district representative of the national film board for the Kootenays, whose headquarters is in Nelson, is very much appreciated by the members of the various film councils and also by people living in isolated and small communities for whom the national film board provides an excellent service. I have some very small and isolated communities in my constituency, and the only films and documentaries which they have the opportunity of seeing are those which have been made available by the national film board. I have been asked by a number of organizations, including some of the churches, the Canadian Legion, and some of the women's institutes, to express appreciation of the work being done by the national film board both in the production of these documentary films and also in the work which is being done in the district and the co-operation received from the representative of the board in the Kootenay area.
I cannot sit down without talking very parochially, as one of the pressmen said of me on one occasion. I intend to make some remarks directly related to some propaganda for the area in which I live. There is a great interest in the Columbia and Kootenay regions in the documentary film which it is proposed to make in this area. I hope that when the minister replies to the questions raised by hon. members she will be able to give some fairly accurate and detailed information as to what the board is proposing in this direction, because this documentary film to be made of the Columbia river basin provides the greatest opportunity the board has ever had in Canada. There we have a region of 40,000 square miles
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration with an unusual history and unusually beautiful scenery-mountains, valleys, lakes and rivers. This region has a most interesting history with respect to early navigation, both by the Hudson's Bay Company, later by the stern wheelers, and still later in connection with the lumber and mining operations in the district. The region has a most interesting history with regard to the development of mining, the development of smelting, and the tremendous growth of the forest industry.
Anyone who looks for them will be able to find some particularly interesting small communities-beautiful small communities located on the Kootenay and Arrow lakes as well as on various parts of the Columbia and Kootenay rivers. These communities would provide charming opportunities for producers of the national film board. I hope, too, that when the producers of the board-those who plan these things-are arranging the content of this film they will consult with the provincial organizations-the British Columbia historical association, to name one-and with the local historical societies. I also suggest that if they wish to get a little colour into the film they should consult with a few people of ancient vintage who live in the Columbia basin and thus get in touch with those fast disappearing "characters" who are required to make any film particularly memorable and striking.
I must repeat that the people of our district are looking forward to the production of this film. All the local organizations are willing to co-operate in any way they can in what, I have no doubt, will turn out to be the greatest and most successful venture ever undertaken by the board in the realm of documentary films in this area.


Frank Charles McGee: I am wondering whether the minister will say a few words when she replies about comparative costs in the film industry today. If my impression is correct, it seems to me that when the national film board was first established there were very few criteria available in Canada on which to compare the cost of producing films in various circumstances. Now, however, there are in existence outstanding film companies as the Crawley Film Company, the Fletcher Company and numerous others who are doing important and good work in the film field, and I wonder whether any attempt has been made by the minister to compare the cost to the government and to the taxpayer of the operations of the national film board as compared with the operations of such private companies as I have mentioned.


Leon David Crestohl: I wonder whether the minister, when she rises to reply, could inform the committee to what extent documentary
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration films of Canada are in the possession of our missions abroad. Some days ago, at a meeting of the commonwealth parliamentary association, we were shown some beautiful films of life in Australia and we are to be shown another one shortly about Africa. These films from other countries, shown by their missions to parliamentarians in Canada do make an impression, and I should like the minister to say to what extent Canada is doing the same thing through our own missions abroad. Such films would, I am sure, prove of great value to our country and perform an important service.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the minister rises there is one question I should like her to answer. Could she tell the committee what has happened to a film which was made on the United Nations Emergency Force by the film board in co-operation, I believe, with the United Nations?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Perhaps I could answer some of these questions. In the first place, may I thank all those hon. members who have paid compliments to the film board, to its staff, and in some cases even to the minister.
I should like first of all to answer the question put to me by the hon. member for Dollard and tell him that during the recent strike of some employees of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation the film board not only made no effort at all to sell films to the
C.B.C. but, figuratively "bent over backward" in order not to become involved in the difficulties which had arisen. The only films which were sold to the C.B.C. in that period were those in respect of which there were existing contracts on a continuing basis. In all other respects the film board tried to avoid becoming involved in this dispute.
The hon. member for Oxford asked me a question relating to the play written by Judge Cross. I am sorry, but we do not have any specific information with reference to this. My officials are unfamiliar with it. However, I can tell the hon. member that a historical series has been started and that the first film will be completed in a few weeks. The subject is Lord Elgin.
I have some good news also for the hon. member for Kootenay West, namely that the cost of the script and of the necessary research in connection with the film to be made in his area has been included in this year's estimates. We hope that all the research will be completed this year, and the script written. We hope to have the film in the estimates for 1960-61. I can also assure him of something I imagine he already knows, that is, that the producers and the staff of the film board are very resourceful


people, and I am sure they will find most of the colourful figures in the hon. member's district. It might even be possible that they will call on the hon. member himself, though I can hold out no real hope that he will appear in the finished product.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The hon. member for York-Scarborough asked me a question with respect to comparative costs, and I can tell him now that the film board at all times carries on a policy of comparing costs as between operators in Canada from whom quotations are received and the board's own costs. This is a problem with respect to various departments of government. In some cases a department of government will ask for a film to be produced by a specific producer in which event arrangements are made to have it produced. In other cases for the purpose of establishing costs, if producers wish to present their costs they are compared with the costs of the department. There is a constant study going on with regard to comparative costs. If the hon. member is interested in any specific case I am sure we could supply him with the information if he would apply to the department.
The hon. member for Cartier asked with reference to the films that are shown at our missions abroad. I should like to refer him to page 36 in the annual report in which there is a record of the number of showings of our films abroad, the countries in which they were shown and the attendance at these showings. It is very illuminating. I do not propose to put the whole table on the record but I might point out that the total number of showings abroad was 213,655 in the fiscal year ended March 31, 1958, and the aggregate attendance was 21,008,919. These are films obtained through our embassies abroad. I have been in a few of the offices of our missions abroad as I am sure the hon. gentleman has and there is a sizable stock of films on Canada there available for showings when opportunities arise.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate asked me about the United Nations film. As the hon. gentleman knows, this film was made by the national film board for the United Nations as a joint venture. As a matter of fact I believe the United Nations was about to send their own people into the field when they realized that the national film board was already on the scene and so they commissioned the film board to make the film. It is in the custody of the United Nations as regards its distribution. I have no information other than that. It has not been released to date and permission has not been procured for its release.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. lady tell us how much the film cost the Canadian taxpayer, if anything, and whether or not any recent efforts have been made to secure the film from the United Nations for distribution in Canada? It seems to me that if it was made by the film board, even if the United Nations is not particularly interested in it, Canadians would very much like to see it. I know I would myself.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I do not think we are in a position to run counter to the wishes of the United Nations with regard to the release of the film. I am not in a position to answer for the Department of External Affairs and I believe that question might more properly be asked of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Certainly we are in no position to distribute the film independently of the wishes of the United Nations in that regard.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I pursue that a little further. Could the hon. lady say if permission was sought and refused at the United Nations or if no steps have been taken in the matter. It seems a rather odd thing that a film made by the national film board of Canada would be censored by the U.N. Since this was one of the undertakings of the film board surely it is something of which we ought to have an account.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That might appear to be so. The cost of the film which was assumed by the film board for its activities was $42,460.71. That is not the total cost because some of it was borne by the United Nations. Application has been made through the Secretary of State for External Affairs to the United Nations for reimbursement of this amount. In the meantime the film does not belong to the film board it belongs to the United Nations and I am afraid it is much more a problem for the Department of External Affairs than for the national film board.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. lady has much more opportunity of talking to her colleague the Secretary of State for External Affairs than I have as a humble member of the opposition and I wonder if she would be so kind as to speak to the minister about it and ask him if he would not make some effort to see that this film is exhibited in Canada so that the Canadian taxpayers would get some value for this money. In my view that would be the most sensible way of doing things. It seems rather odd that we would have no proprietary interest in a film on whiGh we spent over $42,000.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I should be very glad to speak to my colleague.
66968-9-121
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Chairman, I was standing behind the curtain and could not help but overhear the subject being discussed. It so happens that about a year ago I was acting as vice-chairman of the Canadian delegation to the general assembly of the United Nations. At that time this matter was discussed not with me but among senior officials of the United Nations. I do not think hon. members of the committee would expect me to divulge names at this time but for information of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate may I comment that it was felt there were certain parts of the film that might possibly cause ruffled feelings among some of the countries concerned and that it might be more advisable in the interests of goodwill and amity among countries of the United Nations if the film were submitted to further editing or released at a later date.
I do not think I need say more at this time. A few members of the Canadian delegation were invited to a showing of the film. I saw the film myself and thought it a splendid one. From the point of view of photography and production it was an excellent film indeed but I would agree with the members of the staff of the secretary general that at the time it would have been unwise, possibly, to release it because, as I believe the hon. gentleman could well imagine, it might have in some countries caused hard feeling-or let me put it this way, it might have rubbed salt in the wounds-after the Suez affair. No doubt it will be released at a future date.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, as everyone knows I have the greatest possible respect for the hon. member for Oxford but I cannot say I have the same respect for the argument he has just made. If the Canadian taxpayers have spent over $42,000 for this film it does not seem to me that because it might injure the susceptibilities of someone else in some other country it should not be exhibited in Canada. I believe the government should either get the money back if this censorship is going to continue or follow the course that I think would be preferable and get some prints of the film to exhibit in Canada.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, on the surface what the hon. gentleman has just said appears to make sense but in the contract which was drawn copyright was vested in United Nations and I am afraid until such time as they give permission for the showing of the film there is not very much we can do. Personally I would like to get back our $42,000 as I am sure the film commissioner would also.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, perhaps if the hon. lady could get back the $42,000 she should apply it on one of these pictures that she seems to get into such difficulties about.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Guy Rouleau: Mr. Chairman, I noticed that in the answers to various questions asked by hon. members the minister did not answer one of the questions I put to her. It is possible that she did not fully understand my question or it may be that she did not take it seriously. I shall repeat my question to the minister. I wish to ask her if she is contemplating instructing the board to produce a film based on our national anthem, "O Canada"?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, the minister does not instruct the board.


Guy Rouleau: Can the minister make a suggestion? Is she responsible for the film board?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The minister answers to parliament for the national film board but it is an autonomous body. The minister does not direct the activities.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am afraid the hon. lady has not read the act because when I was administering the act I did read it. She is completely wrong about that. It is quite different from the C.B.C. Under the National Film Board Act the minister is responsible for and directs the activities of the board. I cannot recite the precise language, but if the hon. lady will look at the act she will find that she is fully responsible for all of its activities and has to answer for all of them.
(Translation):


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the minister a question. Would the hon. lady tell us the number of films produced by the national film board in each province during 1958? I just want the total for each province.
(Text):


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, we do not have those figures here. We shall be glad to make them available to the hon. member tomorrow.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Mr. Chairman, I listened with a great deal of interest to all of the remarks and I think it is well to heap congratulations on the board, and I must say that as one of those humble citizens who has to stay home with the children at nights I find the films of the national film board most educational and as interesting as any others that are shown. What prompted me to rise was the fact that some hon. members made suggestions as to the type of films which should be produced and shown.
As a humble citizen of the city of Ottawa I am aware of the fact that we spend a great deal on the national capital plan and on publicizing our capital. I believe at this time the minister-and I think she has the authority to do this-could suggest to the


film board that we should have a full-length film about our capital, about its origin, about its people from the days of Bytown to date, not a short but something active. I think that that type of film would appeal to the whole of Canada and would be of much greater value in publicizing our capital than anything else we have produced to date. This is a short story and I do not think it is compromising. I think all hon. members will realize that there is no more beautiful city than Ottawa because it is the city of everybody in this house. If it is not better it is because we have not all put our shoulders to the wheel. Let us all get together and get a real full-length film of the history of the capital and when it is produced show it everywhere.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I think the hon. member has just put his finger on the crux of the problem with regard to instructions, suggestions, policy and so on. I shall be very glad to pass his suggestions along to the film board but, as I said before, I do not have the power to instruct the film board to make any specific film and I know that was not what the hon. member asked me to do. The act, which I have in my hand now, says that the minister shall control and direct the operations. For over-all policy that is true, but for the actual process of producing this and that the minister does not interfere. I will be glad to make the suggestions.


Jean-Thomas Richard: I know that at least the minister's ears are sympathetic and I also know that in this very room at least there are strangers who have ears and who will also listen to what I have said.


Guy Rouleau: In the light of the answer given to the hon. member for Ottawa East, would the minister be ready to pass along to members of the board my suggestions concerning a film based on "O Canada" as our national anthem?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am sure I do not need to assure the hon. member for Dollard that the ears of the officials are always open to suggestions.
(Translation):


Samuel Boulanger: Mr. Chairman, I notice that the minister seems very favourably disposed and seems prepared to give earnest consideration to the requests of the members for Dollard (Mr. Rouleau) and Ottawa East (Mr. Richard). I would also like to suggest that our distinctive flag be shown when the film just mentioned by the member of Ottawa East is produced.


Louis-Joseph Pigeon: Mr. Chairman, I have a suggestion to make to the national film board authorities. I want to ask them if it would

be possible to produce a film showing the work done on the St. Lawrence seaway, and to be sure not to forget the locks on the Welland canal.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
236. Administration, operation and maintenance, including grants as detailed in the estimates, $879,640.
Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the Leader of the Opposition will permit me, I have a short statement I would like to make with reference to the national gallery.
It has been known since the spring of 1955 that the national gallery would move to the Lome building some time during 1959. It is now confirmed that the move will take place on or about September 30.
The move to the new building will have a number of important results in terms of services to the public, both Canadian and tourist. All of the important works in the collection will be on public view; there will be space, at last, to show and properly to house the print and drawing collection, which is one of the finest in terms of quality in North America; there will be sufficient room to show a reasonable proportion of the war collections; all the important works in the sculpture collection, which is a small one, will be on view. We will have our own auditorium and we will be able to present a greatly increased and far more systematic program of public lectures, film programs, and so forth. There will be sufficient space for the scientific and conservation laboratory to develop and expand into a truly national service; the design centre will return to its old site at the corner of Albert and Slater; the library and photographic library service will have sufficient space for these services to operate at a level worthy of a national gallery; the workshop area in the double basement will allow the extension and travelling exhibition services to operate with proper efficiency. Perhaps the greatest gain of all is that special exhibitions can be mounted without displacing the permanent collection.
The prospect of the move to a new building has affected the work and program of the gallery profoundly over the past four years. The staff has been slowly increased- it is now almost double what it was in 1955- as people could be found and trained for both the increased curatorial work which will result from a much greater proportion of the national collection being on public view and also to deal with a greatly expanded extension program serving some 120 centres across the country.
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Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, the committee, I think, will have learned with satisfaction of the progress made in the transfer of the gallery to its new building, a project which was initiated, as the minister knows, some few years ago before she was so happily in charge of the department.
While I congratulate the minister on that progress report, I am afraid I cannot congratulate her in regard to a matter which I wish to bring up at this time, undoubtedly not to her surprise, and which is concerned with the possible purchase or negotiations for the purchase of a picture for the gallery, a Breughel.
I think I should begin by pointing out to the committee that I believe the minister was not in charge of the department after the change of government when negotiations for the purchase of this picture began, and therefore she does not have any direct responsibility perhaps for the sorry, unhappy ending of these negotiations. I have had the opportunity of making some investigation into this matter and, as I have just said, it is a confused, unhappy situation which brings no credit to the government and which, on the contrary, has resulted in a good deal of discredit to the government and to the name of Canada in those circles which are concerned with art matters.
What I am dealing with is not the desirability or otherwise of spending a large sum of money at this time for the purchase of a picture, however rare and beautiful that picture may be. The question at issue is the way in which this matter was handled or rather mishandled, as I see it, by the government. The reply by the minister, to be found on page 1364 of Hansard for February 25, to a question put on the order paper by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate concerning this matter certainly does not mitigate the complaint that we have to make with regard to the way the matter was dealt with.
If I am inaccurate in giving my account of these negotiations no doubt the minister, who has the records at her disposal, will correct me. As I understand the situation, the first contact between a representative of the gallery and the agent for the owner of the picture, a landscape by Breughel, was made on January 4, 1957, when the gallery became interested in what perhaps is one of the finest pictures of its kind in the world and one of the very few pictures of this artistic value which was open for purchase. I believe that in January of 1957 a value of approximately $500,000 was placed on the picture by the European owner.
A good many months later, on October 22, 1957, after the election of that year, I believe
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the owner of the picture or the agent of the owner was informed that the trustees of the national gallery, who would naturally have to pass on any purchase of a picture of this kind or any other kind, were interested and I believe the director was authorized at that time to pursue the matter further and no doubt report back. I am informed that in October of 1957 the amount involved was far beyond the appropriation of the national gallery.
However, in December, 1957, the officers of the gallery, no doubt with authority, pursued the question of price with the owner or the agent of the owner of the picture. I am informed that in January, 1958 the agent for the owner of the picture was told that the trustees of the national gallery of Canada had unanimously expressed the intention to acquire this painting if negotiations could be satisfactorily concluded, that negotiations then began with the owner or agent on the question of price and that late in January, 1958 the owner was then informed that there would be a delay because of the political situation in Canada and the approach of an election and nothing could be worked out very quickly on that account.
But in February the agent did learn that the trustees were pursuing the matter of the purchase and that question was before the government at that time for a definite opinion on whether or not the picture should be bought. Then, toward the end of April the owner or agent was informed that the trustees of the national gallery had agreed on a figure which, if other aspects of the matter could be cleared up, might be offered to the owner, that figure being $350,000, well below the amount I have quoted as being the value placed on the picture some time earlier by the owner. It was considerably less than that earlier value.
I have already referred to the answer given by the minister to the question asked in the house. As found on page 1364 of Hansard the minister made this reply:
-the board of trustees of the national gallery had asked-
Presumably had asked the government.
-for "authorization to negotiate for the purchase of the Breughel owned by Baron von Polnitz". At the same time the trustees asserted that the necessary funds had been appropriated and were available for the purchase. This statement was confirmed by the director of the gallery.
I gather from that that the government got their information as to the availability of funds for this picture not from any treasury board authority, not from the Department of Finance but from the officers of the national gallery, from the director and trustees of the national gallery. Having received their


information not from treasury board but from the trustees and the director of the national gallery, according to the answer to this question, that money was available, on the basis of that information the cabinet on May 2 authorized the Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to give permission to the director to proceed accordingly. Apparently, by that it meant to proceed with the negotiations for the purchase of the picture.
I am informed, Mr. Chairman, that on the other end of the deal a very different understanding prevailed. I am informed that the agent for the owner was told by the director of the gallery that he was authorized, not merely to negotiate as stated in the answer to this question but to make an offer of $350,000 for this picture, presumably on the understanding that this money was available, on the basis of information secured from the gallery itself and not from the treasury board or the Department of Finance or the other authorities of government which might be expected to know.
He was authorized to make an offer, authorized by the government to make an offer of this amount without any strings attached, with payment to be made on delivery of the picture sometime after May 12. The agent was asked, as a matter of urgency, to get a reply from the owner. He got in touch with the owner on May 3 and the owner assumed that this was an offer made in good faith, a valid offer, without any strings attached. The owner accepted the offer and the agent wired the director of the gallery accordingly and requested, I am informed, written confirmation.
Then on May 5 the director of the gallery told the agent that he would send a purchase contract in a few days and payment would be made. There would be a little delay in making payment because it would have to wait until after parliament convened, but that would be a mere formality. Then three days later the director, after all these negotiations had been completed, informed the agent that there would be difficulty in regard to the financing of this picture because the cabinet had authorized this firm offer on the understanding that the money was readily available from some fund which was in existence for the purchase of pictures from the Liechtenstein collection. Now they discovered, after this firm offer had been made, that there was no such money readily available from that fund. The agent was informed that it was hoped this difficulty would soon be cleared up and the contract could be signed.

It was not until four or five days after that, on May 12 or May 13, that finally the agent for the owner of this picture was able to see the minister concerned, and the minister then explained that this was all very unfortunate; that there had been a misunderstanding; that the money which was thought to be available was not available and therefore the deal, if I may put it this way, was off and no purchase would be made.
Now, Mr. Chairman, that, according to my information, is an account of the events leading up to the decision of the government, first to authorize the firm offer and eventually to withdraw that firm offer and tell the owner of the picture that the deal was off. Perhaps in the present circumstances it was a very wise decision not to spend the money for the picture at this time-I am not qualified to judge-but surely, the way this was done reflects no credit on anybody concerned with it. I am sure it has given Canada a very bad name in circles which deal in art matters. Perhaps this may not be of any immediate importance to Canadians but it will do Canada no good in future when we wish to add valuable pictures to our national gallery.
Perhaps I could complete this sorry record of mishandling by asking the minister, who would no doubt wish to reply to what I have said, whether at any time the owner has, since this date I have mentioned of May 13, asked for an interview with the Prime Minister or any minister to get an explanation why this matter was handled in this way? Has the minister any other information she could give to us about this matter which, as I have already said and I repeat, was an unfortunate example of confusion, fumbling, bumbling and mishandling.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: May I preface my remarks by saying I have no apology to make for the action of the government with regard to this particular matter. The Leader of the Opposition has seen fit to read into the record his own assumptions with respect to what might have taken place in the negotiations for the purchase of the Breughel. I made my statement in the house, as he has said, on February 25, after due consideration. I should like to quote the last two paragraphs of that statement in which I said:
It is clear that no authority existed to make a firm offer or enter into a contract for this purchase by the national gallery or the government of Canada or anyone on its or their behalf. The Financial Administration Act specifically requires that there be an appropriation provided by parliament for the purpose before a contract can be made.
It is reiterated that the authority asked for was to negotiate. Although granted in the first instance this was immediately revoked as soon as the lack of appropriation was revealed.
Business of the House
The Leader of the Opposition has been at some pains to castigate the government for its lack of knowledge of what funds had been appropriated. But the Leader of the Opposition has been a minister of the crown as well as a deputy minister, and I think he knows that the minister relies upon information which is given to him by his officials.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I also know that the minister takes responsibility for all acts of his officials.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: That is all well and good; then, is the Leader of the Opposition suggesting to me now that he is castigating the government or is he casting reflections upon the director of the national gallery or upon the board of trustees?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will answer that question. I am casting reflections upon the government which must take the responsibility for the way these negotiations were conducted. Perhaps the minister, if she thinks my information is wrong, will table all the correspondence in connection with this matter, all the letters, telegrams, records of telephone calls and any material which will throw any light on this situation?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: If the Leader of the Opposition wishes to request in specific terms what he requires to be tabled we will be glad to look into it. I would say to him that because of his long experience in government, both as a civil servant and as a minister of the crown, he knows very well that the government has no power to spend funds which have not been appropriated.


Lester Bowles Pearson: They should find that out.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister should know that before making any commitments.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: There was no appropriation and, as the Leader of the Opposition stated, this did not happen during my term of office. I will say that I would not condone the expenditure of funds and I would not ask parliament to provide funds to cover up a fiasco like this.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I call it ten o'clock?
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the leader of the house what the business will be for as much of next week as he can forecast now?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, for tomorrow first of all.

Business of the House Mr. Green: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we shall continue with the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and then take those of the Department of Agriculture. On Monday there will be a motion to go into supply. On Wednesday we are asking for interim supply, and there will also probably be supplementary estimates to be considered at that time.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is that all that is con. templated for Wednesday?


Howard Charles Green: Judging by the remarks of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate I contemplate a little trouble.
It being five minutes after ten o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.



ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Howard: 1.	Pursuant to section 113(1) of the Indian Act, have any agreements for the education of Indian children been entered into with (a) government of a province; (b) the commissioner of the Northwest Territories; (c) the commissioner of the Yukon Territory; (d) public or separate school boards; (e) religious or charitable organizations?
2.	If so, with what provinces, persons or organizations?
3.	With respect to each such agreement, has any contribution towards the capital cost of schools been (a) authorized; (b) paid, and if so, how much in each case and what percentage does this represent of the total capital cost?
4.	With respect to each such agreement, has any arrangement been made for the payment of tuition fees on behalf of Indian children? If so, what is the monthly or annual per capita payment in each case?
Answer by: Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):
1.	(a) Yes, (b) Yes, (c) Yes, (d) Yes, (e) Yes.
2.	The answer to this question has been provided in the answer to question 3 below.
3 and 4. Agreements with the following authorities have been completed:
The board of school trustees, district No. 70, Alberni, B.C.-Two agreements: federal government contribution, $25,264.29; percentage of total capital cost, 14 per cent; federal government contribution, $112,475.66; percentage of total capital cost, 18 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 73, Alert Bay, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $80,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 31 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, Joan and Phyllis township area public school district, Bear Island, Ontario.-Federal government contribution, $1,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, unknown; tuition fees, no billing received to date.
The board of school trustees, district No. 49 (Ocean Falls), Bella Coola, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $65,207.73; percentage of total capital cost,
73.5	per cent; Federal government contribution, $37,723.57; percentage of total capital cost, 56.6 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Board of school trustees, district No. 72 (Campbell River), Campbell River, B.C.- Federal government contribution, $18,728.00; percentage of total capital cost, 3 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
Questions
The board of school trustees, district No. 2264 (Churchill), Churchill, Manitoba.- Federal government contribution, $27,963.50; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of Bathurst, Dalhousie, N.B.-Federal government contribution, $32,510.24; percentage of total capital cost, 9 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $5.00.
Dauphin-Ochre school board, Dauphin, Manitoba.-Federal government contribution, $75,252.51; percentage of total capital cost, 33.3 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
Commissioner of the Yukon Territory, Dawson, Yukon-Federal government contribution, $40,826.00; percentage of total capital cost, 15.4 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $25.00.
The board of school trustees of S.S. No. 5 Lash school board, Emo, Ontario.-Federal government contribution, $19,896.47; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $8.50.
The school board of the parish of Escou-mains, Escoumains, Quebec.-Federal government contribution, $18,900.00; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Fort Frances separate school board, Fort Frances, Ontario.-Federal government contribution, $58,936.55; percentage of total capital cost, 79 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $13.88.
The board of school trustees, district No. 53 (Terrace), Hazelton, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $73,-
000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 56 per cent; Federal government contribution, $53,697.00; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 49 (Ocean Falls), Hagensborg, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $18,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; Federal government contribution, $25,563.50; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees of the township school area of Otonabee, Hiawatha, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $9,142.85; percentage of total capital cost, 11 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The Jasper Place separate school board, Jasper Place, Alberta.-Federal government contribution, $53,369.87; percentage of total capital cost, 15 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $20.00.
Government of the province of Saskatchewan, Lac la Ronge, Saskatchewan-Federal government contribution, $86,108.03; percentage of total capital cost, 60 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $17.00.

Questions
The board of school trustees, district No. 30 (Ashcroft), Lytton, B.C.-Three agreements: Federal government contribution, $742.50; percentage of total capital cost, 45 per cent; Federal government contribution, $42,745.59; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; Federal government contribution, $28,596.76; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Lakefield public school board, Lake-field, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $40,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees, no billing received to date.
The board of school trustees, district No. 50 (Queen Charlotte), Masset, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $25,918.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Protestant school commission, Mani-waki, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $10,633.00; percentage of total capital cost, 16.6 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $17.00.
The Roman Catholic school commission, Maniwaki, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $114,665.59; percentage of total capital cost, 33 J per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $12.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 68 (Nanaimo), Nanaimo, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $37,229.21; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Roman Catholic episcopal corporation of Vancouver, North Vancouver, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $80,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 20 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The school board of the parish of Notre Dame du Nord, Notre Dame du Nord, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $59,732.17; percentage of total capital cost, 30 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $20.00.
The public school board of the town of Orillia, Orillia, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $37,335.83; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $136.25.
Oka school board, Oka, Quebec-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $42,000; percentage of total capital cost,
20.5	per cent; federal government contribution, $977.66; percentage of total capital cost, 9 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $9.00.
Parry Sound board of education, Parry Sound, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $19,569.00; percentage of total capital cost, 12 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $131.10.
Government of the province of Manitoba, Pelican Rapids, Manitoba-Three agreements: federal government contribution, $15,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent;
federal government contribution, $3,490.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; federal government contribution, $5,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 10 (Portage la Prairie), Portage la Prairie, Manitoba

Two agreements: federal government contribution, $36,562.50; percentage of total capital cost, 27 per cent; federal government contribution, $30,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 25 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The board of school trustees, Prince Albert collegiate, Prince Albert, Saskatchewan-Federal government contribution, $109,037.58; percentage of total capital cost, 21 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 74 (Quatsino), Port Hardy, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $25,000; percentage of total capital cost, 11.36 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 72 (Campbell River), Quadra island, B.C.-[DOT] Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $23,076.00; percentage of total capital cost, 19 per cent; Federal government contribution, $18,770.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees of St. Mary's river school No. 2, Cardston, Alberta-Federal government contribution, $150,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $23.00.
Department of education, Manitoba, South Indian Lake, Manitoba-Federal government contribution, $17,500.00; percentage of total capital cost, 70 per cent; tuition fees (annual) $136.31.
The board of school trustees, district No. 50 (Queen Charlotte), Skidegate, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $35,273.00; percentage of total capital cost, 33.3 per cent; Federal government contribution, $38,803.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
Government of the province of Saskatchewan, Stanley, Saskatchewan-Federal government contribution, $12,500.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $17.00.
Telegraph Creek school district, Telegraph Creek, B.C.-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $22,177.43; percentage of total capital cost, 55 per cent; Federal government contribution, $12,233.43; percentage of total capital cost, 55 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.

Sarnia board of education, Sarnia, Ontario -Federal government contribution, $54,149.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $179.42.
The board of school trustees of the St. Thomas separate school, Tarentorus, Ontario -Federal government contribution, $45,126; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (annual), $77.18.
The Roman Catholic episcopal corporation of Halifax, Truro, N.S.-Federal government contribution, $38,509.05; percentage of total capital cost, 20 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The Wallaceburg public school board, Wallaceburg, Ontario-Two agreements: Federal government contribution, $40,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; Federal government contribution, $40,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $16.00.
Department of education, Quebec, Winne-way, Quebec-Federal government contribution, $13,613.87 percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent; tuition fees-no billing received to date.
The Roman Catholic corporation of Prince Rupert, B.C.-Five agreements: Burns Lake- Federal government contribution, $119,930.34; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent.
Fort St. James-Federal government contribution, $107,494.68; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent.
Hazelton-Federal government contribution, $35,000.00; percentage of total capital cost, 45 per cent.
Smithers-Federal government contribution, $120,668.00; percentage of total capital cost, 50 per cent.
Vanderhoof-Federal government contribution, $108,495.00; percentage of total capital cost 50 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
The board of school trustees, district No. 52 (Prince Rupert), Port Essington, B.C.-Federal government contribution, $1,500.00; percentage of total capital cost, 60 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $15.00.
Elphinstone consolidated school district, Elphinstone, Manitoba-Federal government contribution, $1,059.59; percentage of total capital cost, 100 per cent; tuition fees (monthly), $10.00.
Board of education, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario-Federal government contribution, $34,419.67; percentage of total capital cost,
16.6	per cent; tuition fees (annual), $259.62.
Commissioner of the Northwest Territories-Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources provides buildings and pays operating costs.
Questions


NATIONAL MUSEUM
Mr. Argue: What qualities and qualifications are desirable in a director of: (a) the human history branch of the national museum of Canada; (b) the natural history branch of the national museum of Canada?
Answer by: Hon. Alvin Hamilion (Minister of
Northern Affairs and National Resources):
(a) and (b). In addition to good health and personal suitability, the desirable qualities in a director of either branch of the national museum of Canada comprise a sound knowledge of and capacity for management and administration, organizational ability, and capacity to co-ordinate research. Specific qualifications include:	graduation with a
doctor's degree from a university of recognized standing with specialization in one or more of the related fields; extensive experience in one or more of the disciplines involved and an international standing as shown by published results; experience in planning, exhibits and a knowledge of modern museum and public information methods. In the case of a director of the human history branch, it might be expected to find a candidate with specialization and experience in fields or disciplines such as anthropology, ethnology or archaeology. In the case of a director of the natural history branch it might be expected to find a candidate with specialization and experience in fields or disciplines such as geology, minerology, palaeontology, zoology or botany.


CANADIAN HISTORICAL MUSEUM
Mr. Argue: 1.	Did the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences make any recommendations regarding the establishment of a Canadian historical museum, how it should be administered and controlled, and the status of its director?
2.	If so, what was the text of its recommendations?
3.	Have any of these recommendations not been implemented?
4.	If so, for what reason or reasons have they been disregarded?
5.	Have steps been taken to implement any of these recommendations in the near future?
6.	If so, which ones?
Answer by: Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister
of Northern Affairs and National Resources):
1.	Yes.
2.	The text may be found on pages 323 and 324 of the royal commission's report.
3.	Yes.
4.	5, and 6. Recommendations which have been implemented were described in the answer to question No. 188. No decision has yet been taken to implement the other recommendations.

Questions


RADIOACTIVITY TESTING PROGRAM
[Stage Direction]
90 IN MILK
Mr. Marlin (Essex East): 1.	Is the Minister of National Health and Welfare in a position to comment on a newspaper article appearing in the Financial Post, February 28, 1959, alleging that the existing federal radioactivity-testing program is inadequate?
2.	Will the minister give assurance regarding the safety of milk from excessive doses of strontium 90?
Answer by: Hon. J. W. Monleilh (Minister
of National Health and Welfare):
1.	The best evidence available shows that the existing Canadian radioactivity testing program compares most favourably with those of other leading countries in the nuclear field. A study of the report of the United Nations scientific committee on the effects of atomic radiation of August, 1958, confirms this view. Since the beginning of this program in 1955, the Department of National Health and Welfare has built a new radiochemical building in Ottawa, the number of scientific and technical positions has been substantially increased and at this very moment the department is broadening the scope of its investigations to include measurements of radioactivity in rainfall, air and soil. The program is further supported by the recent construction of two whole-body measuring units for the determination of radioactivity in humans. The department has planned to build a third Canadian unit of this type which it considers an essential part of the studies.
The department is keeping abreast of all new scientific developments in this field and to this end the program is kept under constant review.
2.	Excessive levels of strontium 90 have occurred only on nuclear weapon testing sites, of which there is none in Canada. On the basis of findings of the Department of National Health and Welfare there is at present no discernible hazard by strontium 90 contamination of milk.


TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY, MONTREAL
Mr. Rouleau: 1. Has the federal government received representations from the provincial authorities or other agencies in the province of Quebec or in the city of St. Laurent, requesting its participation in the
completion of the trans-Canada highway in the northern section of metropolitan Montreal?
2. If so, on what date were the said representations made and by whom?
Answer by: Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister
of Public Works):
1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


CONVERSION LOAN
Mr. Benidickson: What is the explanation of the substantial differences between: (a) the principal amount of the conversion loan bonds as given in the January 1959 Bank of Canada statistical summary; (b) the principal amount for the same loans given in the December 1958 Bank of Canada statistical summary?
Answer by: Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):
The principal amounts of conversion loan bonds given in the December 1958 statistical summary of the Bank of Canada and labelled "preliminary" were the same as those given in the Department of Finance press release of October 21, 1958, covering statistics as of October 14, 1958. The figures were estimates based on reports received directly from authorized agents during the campaign and in the press release were footnoted as "subject to revision on completion of final accounting by issuing agents," The figures in the January statistical summary are based on a near final accounting by issuing agents. Minor adjustments may still be made and the figures are still labelled "preliminary".


CONVERSION LOAN STATISTICS
Mr. Benidickson: In connection with the Canada conversion loan of 1958:
1.	What was the principal amount converted of each of the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth victory loans?
2.	What was the amount of interest accrued to 1 September, 1958, on the bonds of each of such victory loan issues which were so converted?
3.	What was the cash adjustment payable on each of such victory loan issues which were so converted?
Answer by: Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):
(As at February 27, 1959)
5th victory loan 6th victory loan 7 th victory loan 8th victory loan 9th victory loan
1.

[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
[Stage Direction]
48. Departmental administration, $774,401.
Indian affairs branch-
56.	Administration, $680,907.
Indian agencies-
57.	Operation and maintenance, $3,728,028.
58. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $1,141,130.
Reserves and trusts-
59.	Operation and maintenance, $367,421.
Welfare of Indians-
60.	Operation and maintenance, $6,817,932.
61. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,015,000.
Supply-Items Passed
Economic development of Indians-
62.	Operation and maintenance including an amount of $5,700 for grants to promote Indian agriculture, handicrafts and economic enterprises generally, $867,272.
63. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $213,985.
Education-
64.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $17,734,854.
65. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, including payments under agreements to provide joint educational facilities to Indian pupils, $7,362,500.
66.	Grant to provide additional services to the Indians of British Columbia, $100,000.

[Stage Direction]
234.	Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $4,361,772.
235.	Acquisition of equipment, $193,964.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, March 13, 1959