1959-06-05

Mr. Speaker:: 1 understand that an arrangement has been made about Monday's proceedings. I would appreciate it if the house would give unanimous consent to an order to give effect to this arrangement which, as 1 understand it, is as follows: Supply motion; debate to be limited to one day; amendments to be disposed of at 8.15 p.m. on Monday and the main motion to be disposed of at 10 p.m. Is that arrangement acceptable?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



AIRPORTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct to the Prime Minister a question based on reports of a judgment rendered yesterday by the exchequer court with regard to property valuation at Malton airport. Is it the intention of the Prime Minister to make a statement concerning the matter covered by this judgment in which the Minister of Transport (Mr. Hees) and the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Pallett) are mentioned?


Righi Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I read the article in question and the reference to the judgment. It is my purpose to examine the judgment and the surrounding circumstances. However, I think I should say at this time that in so far as any reference to any hon. member in this house is concerned, and in particular to the hon. member for Peel, the integrity and honesty of purpose of that hon. member leaves no question in my mind.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question. In view of statements made in the judgment-and I am not quarrelling in any way with what the Prime Minister has said-has the Prime Minister considered referring this matter to the appropriate standing committee of the house so that it may be given the fullest and most impartial examination?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to answer that question directly at the
moment, because I find it rather difficult to understand the suggestion that there might be any question of partiality up to the present time and that therefore there should be some investigation by a house committee so as to ensure impartiality. I do not understand the meaning of that suggestion. However, as I said a moment ago I shall look into that point and give the matter the attention it requires and deserves.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Heath Macquarrie (Queens):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Transport. I should like to ask the minister what steps his department is taking toward providing an additional ferry for service between Borden, Prince Edward Island and Cape Tormentine, New Brunswick.


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: I wish to thank the hon. member for Queens for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question.
The Department of Transport has carefully reviewed the need for additional ferry service between Borden and Cape Tormentine. The advisability of purchasing the Vacationland for this service was carefully considered, and I wish to advise that in the opinion of the department the ship, as is, would not be suitable. To make the Vacationland suitable for the service involved would require changing the form of the ship, adding accommodation, a complete conversion of machinery and fitting the vessel with firefighting and other equipment required for this class of ship in Canada. These necessary alterations it is estimated would cost approximately $2 million, and the ship could not be ready for use until well into 1960.
It is proposed to undertake as early as possible the construction of a new ferry for this service, with a view to placing a ship in service some time in 1961. The ship proposed would be adequate to meet the increasing demand for automobile transportation and would be suitable for service elsewhere should the construction of a causeway to Prince Edward Island result in this vessel not being required between Borden and Tormentine.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. Haien Argue (Assiniboia):: May I ask
a supplementary question. I wonder if the minister would say what steps are being taken to provide service in this interim period. Second, can he say when the report on the causeway is likely to be received by the government?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I think I have already outlined the steps which have been taken this year to make additional service available. The planking of the Scotia II will make it possible to transport about 60 additional cars per trip. I would suggest that the hon. member refer his question regarding the causeway to the Minister of Public Works under whose department this matter comes.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: Mr. Speaker, I was not able to fully follow the statement made by the Minister of Transport, but I wonder if the minister could tell the house whether the departmental officials have determined what kind of vessel is going to be built. Will it be of the same nature as the Abegweit?


George Harris Hees: We are working on that matter with a great deal of care at the present time, Mr. Speaker.


Hazen Robert Argue: Then if I might refer my supplementary question to the Minister of Public Works, I wonder if he could say when the report regarding the feasibility of the causeway is likely to be received.


Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, some weeks ago when presenting the estimates of the Department of Public Works I explained that a report from the consultants had been received a week or so earlier and that it was being considered by the department. In addition, these reports have to be considered by several other departments, including the Department of Transport. Therefore the Minister of Transport may be able to answer this question in due course.


Hazen Robert Argue: Do I take it from the minister's reply to the question that the report was favourable and recommended this construction?


Howard Charles Green: Now the hon. member is fishing, Mr. Speaker.



FINAL PAYMENT ON 1957-58 POOL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Reynold Rapp (Humboldl-Melfori):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is the minister now in a position to inform the house what

the final payment will be on the 1957-58 wheat pool, which was closed out lately?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the final accounting of the 1957-58 wheat pool which was closed out on May 15 has been completed. An interim payment was made in March in respect of this pool amounting to over $38 million. The basis of the interim payment was 10 cents per bushel on all grades of wheat excepting high quality milling grades of Durum wheat upon which the interim payment was 15 cents per bushel.
The final payment will amount to over $33 million-$33,874,398.61, to be exact-after providing for payment costs and the Prairie Farm Assistance Act levy. The average final payment will, therefore, amount to just under 9 cents a bushel-8.98856 cents per bushel in exact figures. Total prices realized by producers for the principal grades of wheat delivered to the 1957-58 pool are higher than the total prices received for the preceding crop year. The Canadian wheat board has advised me that it is in a position to commence issuing final payment cheques to producers immediately.


Hazen Robert Argue: Since the final payment is somewhat less than the estimate made by the farm organizations in asking for deficiency payments, will the government now give serious consideration to their request?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I would point out that the final payment is higher this year than it was last year. It is higher by 4 cents on No. 1 northern, by 4 cents on No. 2 northern, by 2 cents on No. 3 northern and by 2 cents on No. 4 northern, increases which show that this year was a much better one than last year.


Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder if I may repeat my question. My question was this. Since the farm organizations had estimated that the final payment for all grades would be 4 cents higher than last year, and since that has not transpired, is the government giving consideration to deficiency payments?


Gordon Minto Churchill: This question keeps arising in the mind of the hon. gentleman from Assiniboia. Representations have been made to us with regard to deficiency payments. Only recently a delegation representing the farm organizations was in Ottawa presenting their suggestions, and the answer given was that their proposals are being given consideration. And their proposals had to do with the question of deficiency payments.



INQUIRY AS TO LEGISLATION TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL PAYMENTS TO PRODUCERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether any legislation of any kind is to be introduced this session providing for additional payments to grain growers.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to have that question asked by the hon. gentleman. Over the years when he sat on this side of the house that very question was asked from time to time and invariably the answer was that consideration was being given to this question. While I do appreciate the interest he has in this regard I do not intend to add anything to the remarks made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Hazen Robert Argue: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. 1 wonder if the Prime Minister could say whether the consideration being given to this question by this government is likely to result in action any more than did the consideration given to it by the previous government.


John George Diefenbaker: I would suggest that the two sides get together.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisla-Twillin-gaie):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might direct a further supplementary question to the Prime Minister. In the light of the statement he made the other day that the government had no further legislation in contemplation except that of which indication had been given to the house, do we take it that there is no further legislation in contemplation?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hon. gentleman remembered what I said the other day. However, I stated something which he apparently has forgotten; that if any matter arose that required action then I would ask the house to give consideration to further legislation made necessary by reason of arising exigencies.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Still a further supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Did the Prime Minister not say "any matter now unforeseen that required action"?


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: The government does not intend to do anything; that is clear.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I take it from the Prime Minister's little sermon that any legislation of this kind is not foreseen?
Inquiries of the Ministry


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I shall allow these hon. gentlemen to indulge in any conjecture it pleases them to follow.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Thank you very much.



HEALTH INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. O. H. Phillips (Prince):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. In view of the fact that the premier of Prince Edward Island is reported in the Charlottetown Guardian as declaring that the Prince Edward Island hospital insurance plan now meets the requirements for participation in the national plan, can the minister advise if an agreement has been entered into with Prince Edward Island?


Hon. J. W. Monieiih (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: The answer to the hon. member's question is no. No agreement has been signed with the province of Prince Edward Island. There has, however, been correspondence; a series of letters has been exchanged between the premier of that province and myself on the subject.


Orville H. Phillips: Would the minister consider tabling the correspondence between his department and Premier Matheson?


Jay Waldo Monteith: I would be very pleased to get in touch with the premier of the province and ask his permission to do so.



INQUIRY AS TO INTENTION TO PARTICIPATE

Lionel Chevrier: Has any
progress been made with the province of Quebec in reference to this matter?


Jay Waldo Monteith: I think since the last time I answered a similar question the situation has not changed. There have been indications that they are interested in the program.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of National Health and Welfare if he would show the same interest toward the province of Quebec as he is showing now, quite properly, toward the premier of Prince Edward Island? If the hon. gentleman took some initiative it would help.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Is

Inquiries of the Ministry the hon. lady now in a position to table the contract with Dimensional Investments Limited respecting the Chippewa Indian reserve at Sarnia?


Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry there was some delay in producing this contract, due to a misunderstanding with reference to the material being prepared in answer to the hon. gentleman's other question. I am sure I shall have this copy ready for tabling some time during the first part of next week.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister tell the house if any approach was made to the department by Ontario hydro with a view to acquiring the lands required from the Chippewa reserve directly from the department?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, that is a pretty broad question and I would have to make inquiries. I answered a similar question yesterday, the answer to which was correct; but if the hon. member is asking for information over a certain period of time I would have to make inquiries.



PARLIAMENT HILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. A. Hardie (Mackenzie River):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Could the minister explain to the house why employees' parking facilities on the hill have been discontinued?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, there has been some change within the last few days with regards to parking on the hill having in mind the desirability of enabling tourists from all parts of Canada, and the United States as well, in some numbers at least, to park on the hill.


Lester Bowles Pearson: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Was this change made by the cabinet without reference to any other authority?


Howard Charles Green: I think a change of this kind is the responsibility of the cabinet.


Lester Bowles Pearson: What about Mr. Speaker?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: What about parliament?



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence based on an article which appears in this morning's Globe and Mail written by Philip Deane. Could the minister explain to the house the reason why the Bomarc "B" will not be available for installation at Canadian bases until 1963 rather than 1961, as the minister informed us earlier this session?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: That seems to be a statement made by Mr. Philip Deane. I suggest that the question be directed to him.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: A supplementary question. Can the minister assure the house that the Bomarc "B" will be available and installed on Canadian bases in 1961?


George Randolph Pearkes: The present plans are that the Bomarc "B" will be available at the end of 1961.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Tell the Americans that.



CIVIL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare whether he is in a position to give the house the plans with regard to civil defence which were announced by an official of his department yesterday, plans which are to become effective on September 1.


Jay Waldo Monteith: I am not aware of any such plans having been announced by any official of my department.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will send the minister the clipping.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jean Paul Racine (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Labour, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister.
(Translation):
My question has to do with a Canadian Press dispatch, dated June 3, from London, entitled:
Jobs in Canada for 500 British students.

The item states they are coming over in five specially chartered planes.
My question is this: in view of the fact that many Canadian students have to quit college because they cannot find holiday jobs in industry, I wonder whether the right hon. Prime Minister could assure the house that Canadian students will be given priority over the many foreign students who, according to that Canadian Press dispatch from London, are already here or are expected to come here this summer.
(Text):


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice, look into the dispatch in question, and be in a position to reply on Monday.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs a question arising out of the statement he made in the house yesterday that Canada has no treaty obligations with the Soviet union with respect to shipping and commercial arrangements. Now that the minister has had a chance to examine the treaty in question, does he still feel we have no treaty obligations with the Soviet union covering this matter?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question of the Leader of the Opposition is that the treaty has lapsed, as he must know, and that in its terms there was no specific provision dealing with the question of shipping. Furthermore, it did contain a security clause which would have enabled Canada to deny passage.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Does the minister not recall that the Minister of Trade and Commerce said that while the treaty had lapsed, its provisions were still in effect pending a renewal of the treaty?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, this is really immaterial in dealing with the present situation. The answer I gave yesterday sets out the facts accurately.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question. Does the minister then feel that the present treaty which the Minister of Trade and Commerce has said is
Inquiries of the Ministry still in effect would justify discrimination against Soviet shipping in the Canadian seaway?


Howard Charles Green: Now I am afraid the hon. member is not being a peacemaker in his suggestion at this time. As I understand it, the other day the Minister of Trade and Commerce outlined that negotiations were under way and it was hoped that agreement would be reached, and I believe this is still the position.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I think this is an important matter. I ask the minister to state whether in his opinion this treaty is still in effect pending negotiation for its renewal?


Howard Charles Green: I have already outlined the position to the Leader of the Opposition, and I think there is no need to go any further.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether he still feels that the treaty is in effect pending its renewal.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the arrangements are simply these. Pending the outcome of negotiations, Russia is still receiving most favoured nation treatment as far as Canada is concerned. When negotiations are complete another agreement between the two countries will likely be signed. So far as the present arrangements are concerned, there is no substantial change.


Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the minister, then, whether this most favoured nation treatment, which he says is still in effect pending negotiations for renewal of the treaty, applies to shipping as well as to other matters?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Under the treaty that was signed some years ago most favoured nation treatment was given to Russia. Then there was a further supplementary agreement with reference to the purchase by Russia of a substantial quantity of wheat. This treaty lapsed some time ago and negotiations are now under way. We have not made any change in the arrangements with Russia, and will not until we have concluded the negotiations that are under consideration.


Lester Bowles Pearson: So the most favoured nation treatment is still in effect.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: In view of the statement made by the Minister of Finance last evening that he

Inquiries of the Ministry had tabled a part of a return to a question made an order for return-


Mr. Fleming (Eglinton):: I did not say tabled.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That he had sent it to the Secretary of State's department; I beg the hon. gentleman's pardon-would the minister, if the other returns are not in, consider tabling a partial return, as there are many hon. members who would like to have the information?


Hon. Henri Courtemanche (Secretary of State):: I shall have to verify that and let the hon. member know next Monday.



STATEMENT ON FRENCH EDITION OF &quot;TRADE AND COMMERCE&quot;

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Yesterday the hon. member for Hull asked me a question concerning the two publications of the Department of Trade and Commerce, Foreign Trade, of which 24 copies per year are published, and the French version, Commerce Exterieur, of which 12 copies per year are published. He wanted to know why the subscription price is the same for both publications.
The number of copies of Foreign Trade printed each month is 4,349. The number of copies of Commerce Exterieur is only 534. This makes the cost per copy of printing Commerce Exterieur very high, about $1.55, compared with only 25 cents per copy for printing Foreign Trade. In spite of this the subscription price for Commerce Exterieur is kept at $2 per annum, and this is no change from the decision made in 1954 under the former administration.


Mr. Alexis Caron (Hull):: May I ask a
supplementary question. Does the minister not think, after the promises made that they would right every wrong, that this excuse he has given shows a weakness on this point?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is now getting into a debating mood rather than an inquiring mood.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Minto Churchill: Yesterday the hon. member for Ottawa West inquired about the tabling of certain orders in council as provided for under section 21 of the Export Credits Insurance Act. I would not like the impression to be left that there has been any failure to table reports that are required. In order


to make the situation clear I should like to refer to section 21, clause 5 of the act, which reads as follows:
AH orders in council made under this section while parliament is in session shall be laid before parliament during such session and, if made while parliament is not in session, shaU be laid before parliament at the next ensuing session.
The practice over the years has been to collect the various orders in council passed under section 21 of the act during the year and table them at one time toward the end of the session. However, I have arranged to have the orders in council issued under section 21 tabled in the house early next week rather than at the end of the session, so that when the bill concerning this act comes before the house members will have full information concerning the business that has been transacted during the course of the year.



RESEARCH


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mervyn Arthur Hardie: should like to direct a question to the minister of northern affairs arising out of an article in yesterday's Ottawa Journal concerning an exchange of officials between Canada and Russia to study the Arctic. I wonder if the minister could tell us how far he has gone with this plan.


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing particularly new about this. I think about a year ago there was a discussion of an exchange of visitors between the Soviet union and Canada, and it was proposed that there should be a visit to the Arctic regions of Russia. That is as far as it has gone. The proposal has been put forward, and that is all I can say at this time.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Has any invitation been extended to Russian officials to visit Canada?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: There is a general exchange of visits between the two countries, and in connection with that general exchange each country puts forward various proposals that it would like to have accepted by the other country. These proposals have gone forward, but we have not heard anything since.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
318. General administration, $9,335,045.
(Translation):
Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Chairman, last night, yesterday evening, at ten, when I had to suspend

my remarks, I was referring to the need for a new interprovincial bridge, in view of the fact that the national capital attracts very many visitors, also because of the considerable number of civil servants who work either in Hull or in Ottawa, and on account of the magnificent sites which exist in the neighbourhood. As a matter of fact, of late, the chambers of commerce on both sides of the river have given continued attention to this problem. At a sort of forum, sponsored by the French chamber of commerce of Ottawa, we have discussed that matter rather fully, replying to all questions that were put to us. As a result, the members came to the conclusion that someone should take the initiative, otherwise nothing concrete would be achieved. Besides, I remember that, in this regard, as early as 1955, Mr. Winters, predecessor of the present hon. minister, had earnestly attempted to get the provincial governments to participate in the construction of that bridge. We know that the Ontario government did not make any formal pledge at that time, but in any case I note that, on October 29, 1955, Mr. Frost said:
(Text):
In connection with the proposed Ottawa-Hulll bridge, it is of course understood that this is merely for a preliminary meeting which in no way will commit any of the governments to this project.
Will you please contact Mr. Allan, to whom I am sending a copy of this letter?
(Translation) :
This was an indication that the Ontario government was at least ready to give serious consideration to the matter. Moreover, as a result of that letter, Mr. Allan made the following reply dated November 29, 1955:
(Text):
I have noted your invitation to appoint an engineer to serve on a committee in connection with the proposed bridge, and am pleased to recommend Mr. J. B. Wilkes, district engineer in Ottawa, as a member of the proposed committee.
(Translation):
This shows that, as early as 1955, the Ontario government had intended to give the matter serious consideration. On the other hand, I note that even in 1957, the Quebec government ignored the matter entirely. In fact, I have here a copy of a letter written by Mr. Winters to the premier of the province of Quebec, in which he made the following statement:
I informed you on November 10, 1956 of our intent to set up a committee to go into the matter of rebuilding the approaches to the existing bridges between Ottawa and Hull, the possible location of a
Supply-Public Works new bridge, and a preliminary assessment of the costs involved. I invited you to send a representative to this committee.
The committee has prepared a report, and I enclose for your information a copy of the proceedings of its last meeting, held December 14, 1956, together with a copy of the report from the consulting engineer recommending construction of a new bridge.
I shall welcome any comment you may wish to submit concerning this proposal.
That letter went unanswered. Now apparently the only objection which remains at this time is the opposition of the Quebec premier who, in answer to a question, in the provincial legislature, said: "If Ottawa want bridges, let them build themselves some."
The matter, it seems to me, should be outside of politics. The situation is such that we cannot put up with it much longer. That is why I ask the minister if he could not intimate to his successor.-as the session is soon to be prorogued so that he will probably be replaced in this post-that the Minister of Public Works in Ottawa should be the very man to go ahead and continue the work already begun by his predecessor, Mr. Winters, so as to convince the provincial authorities both of Ontario and Quebec of the fact that in the national capital the position is becoming more intolerable every day.
I know that, if the minister were to consider this request, talks might be resumed and, with some good will on the part of provincial governments-in as much as the minister has already stated with regard to this matter that the federal government is still prepared to pay its share-and, as I said, with some good will and good grace on the part of provincial governments, we could in two or three years see at least the beginning of a solution to that problem, which is the dearest wish of the people of both cities.
Now, Mr. Chairman, would you allow me to take up another point. There are in the Ottawa area many government buildings, most of which, except perhaps the national printing bureau, are on the Ontario side of the river. Some of those buildings are quite a distance from parliament. In fact, some of them are as far as Manotick, several miles from downtown Ottawa.
In the Quebec part of the national capital area there are very few federal buildings. Yet the various governments have expressed the wish that an area of about 35 square miles on the Quebec side be included in the national capital plan.
4368	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works
I wonder why there are not more federal buildings located in the Quebec area, where they would be much closer to the parliament buildings. I am not, of course, referring to structures which are part of the experimental farm; it is only logical and reasonable that these should be out there, I am referring particularly to those buildings which accommodate the various divisions of the Public Works or the Post Office department, and have been erected still farther from the centre block. In the Quebec part of the national capital area there are very few such new buildings.
Mr. Chairman, I know that when in the committee of public accounts, the project of building the National Printing Bureau on the Quebec side was under discussion the first question asked by a member of that committee was: "Why should the National Printing Bureau be located in Hull?" Such attitude shows that some people are narrowminded to a degree that we, who are broadminded, are unable to understand. Some people seem to think that no public building can be erected on the Quebec side. Yet the ridings of Gatineau and Hull comprise space that would be most appropriate for new federal constructions. The federal government would thus be enabled to spread its bounties on both sides of the national capital.
Mr. Chairman, I have not brought up this problem for the purpose of criticizing the present Minister of Public Works. I know he has not had the time to consider all those matters in the short time he has been heading the department. I am pointing out the situation not because of anything that happened in the past, but rather to avoid problems that might arise in the future. Let the Quebec part of the national capital receive greater attention, and I am convinced that everyone will be happy.
Mr. Chairman, I had promised to be brief. In closing, I wish to repeat what I was just saying, that the Minister of Public Works, in view of his new appointment, will soon be stepping out of his present job, and will also be relinquishing his duties as house leader. However, before resuming my seat, may I be allowed to make a suggestion to the government? There is in this house a man whose knowledge of the standing orders and procedure of the house is truly remarkable, a man who reasons with perfect logic and who has been presiding over the pro-


ceedings of a particular committee with such fairmindedness that he should be the unanimous choice of the cabinet to succeed the hon. Minister of Public Works. I therefore suggest to the government that they consider appointing the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Small) in that capacity, in view of all his outstanding qualifications.


Mr. English:: Mr. Chairman, it is with pleasure that I associate myself with all members of the house in warmly congratulating the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Green) on his appointment to the important function of Secretary of State for External Affairs. That mark of confidence on the part of the Right Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) and the compliments showered upon him by members of all political parties represented here, prove that the minister has all the qualities required to fulfil this task.
If we rejoice upon his appointment, it is nonetheless true that we are a bit sorry to see him leave the Department of Public Works, which he has headed since 1957 and which he had administered with devotion, wisdom and in the interest of the whole country.
For my part, I know I have taken much of his time. The requests I have put to him have been many, and if they were more numerous than those of other members, it is because the beautiful constituency of Gaspe, which I have the honour to represent here in the house, is one which has been the most neglected in the past. Mind you, Mr. Chairman, those requests were not made for political reasons, but rather in the interest of a constituency which is rich thanks to its fisheries, its forests and its mines, but hardly developed from an economic standpoint, and that on account of a scarcity of means of communications, both by water and by land.
I have asked for a fishing harbour for Newport, and I may say that my request was considered with close attention by the minister, by his devoted deputy minister and by the whole staff of the department. The authorities came to the conclusion that my request was justified, and they granted it in favour of the city of Newport, and therefore of the constituency of Gaspe. Thanks to the subsidy which the department decided to grant for the construction of a convenient fishing harbour, I am proud to announce to the house that the Quebec United Fishermen will build a filleting plant at a cost of more than one million dollars and that plant will help improve the lot of fishermen, and at the same time, will provide jobs for more than 150 persons.

That is, Mr. Chairman, something which is practical for the development of my constituency. Attention was given not only to the interest of a small group, but to the whole community, including those poor fishermen.
I know I have put other requests to the minister, and, as I said a moment ago, they were numerous.
One of those dealt with improvements to be made to the harbour of Grande Riviere, which comprises a population of fishermen and a federal biology office as well as a provincial fisheries school. The Robin, Jones & Whitman Company of Paspebiac, would be interested in the building of a fish processing plant. That company is willing to invest $500,000 in such a plant. It is ready to start construction as soon as the Department of Public Works decides to undertake the work that is needed on the harbour. I am confident that the minister and his officials will act upon this request, so that the parish may have the benefit of a new important industry.
Mr. Chairman, I have also called for improvements to the Chandler harbour, which has been the subject of representations for many years. The Gaspesia sulphite plant is located in that city, and many ships call at this port to take on cargo. However, the ships have to put up with considerable difficulties, because at the slightest indication of a storm they have to get away from the wharf and keep out at sea for hours and even days, thus further increasing the cost of lumber transportation; this, in turn, prevents companies from paying as much for the wood as they pay in other communities with more adequate transportation facilities.
The city of Chandler has a magnificent port, where ships can dock at any time of the year. In the wintertime, there is no ice to obstruct traffic. I have here a photograph taken in February, which shows that there is no ice to prevent shipping, so that ships can come in and take up cargo throughout the year.
If you want to have an idea of that industry, which is vital both for the town of Chandler and the constituency of Gaspe in general, I must tell you that in 1950 the company spent for wood alone an amount of $2,352,000; in 1956, it spent $4,258,000. That same company has paid in wages in 1950, $1,461,000, and in 1956 $1,983,000. It adds up, for 1956, in purchases of wood and in wages, to $6,241,000. Besides that company intends to enlarge its plant, which would provide more work to the labourers.
Supply-Public Works
In that case too, we are waiting, for I am sure the minister will do something to improve the situation. The officers of the Department of Public Works have undertaken a study of that project. A scale model has been prepared. I have had the opportunity to look at it with a delegation which had come from Chandler to meet the Minister of Public Works and his deputy. I am sure that this project will materialize in the near future. I realize that all the requests I have made cannot be answered overnight, especially when those made on behalf of my constituency are so numerous. I am confident that in the near future, the minister will give consideration to the development of that area, one which has been neglected in the past.
I would like to add a few words about Gaspe harbour, one of the most beautiful of natural harbours. Unfortunately, it has remained in its natural state, just as created by Providence. There again, it would be possible to do something, because we, in the Gaspe constituency, have, like everyone else, paid taxes; unfortunately, we have never got back part of that money for the improvement of the economic situation of the area. As I said last year, we cannot take advantage of all the good legislation adopted by the government, as do other constituencies; we get practically no benefit under the National Housing Act, that excellent piece of legislation.
In conclusion, I once more thank the minister and all his staff for the consideration they have given in the past to the problems of Gaspe.
(Text):


Mr. McCleave:: Mr. Chairman, I have a very brief remark to make about paraplegics and public buildings, but before I do so may I second the remarks of the hon. member for York-Scarborough on behalf of the G.F.A. on the new honours which have come to the minister. We have watched his progress with a great deal of interest, and as he continues to rise in the affection of the house he nears the day when he too will become a member of the G.F.A.
My remarks regarding paraplegics are very simple. I have had representations from time to time, as I know other members of this committee have, in which the paraplegic associations have expressed some concern about

Supply-Public Works
the architecture of public buildings. Particularly they do wish that the federal government in its building program would give some lead, direction or example to the other groups building in this country by so arranging the entrances that it is possible for people in wheel chairs to enter and leave public buildings with the utmost of ease. I hope when the minister rises to take part in this debate he might deal specifically with the representations that have been made by the paraplegic associations.


Mr. McWilliam:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to extend congratulations to the minister on his appointment to the external affairs post. He must, even with his usual modesty, feel a sense of pride on his selection to this most important post in international affairs. It becomes, I think, a recognition of 24 years of faithful service as a member of the parliament of Canada, and for the past two years as a federal cabinet minister in the important portfolio of public works; also he has fulfilled the difficult assignment of house leader. It is a deserved appointment for many reasons, not the least of which is his 24 years of faithful service as a member of parliament. Of course his many other attributes are good reasons for his selection. Every good wish goes to the minister in his role in international affairs. He will now serve Canada in a wider field, and I join with others and say to the minister good luck; good deliberations in the best interests of Canada.
The minister in his remarks on May 2, when opening the main public works estimates, stated that the total departmental expenditure for the year 1958-59 was $220.3 million, an increase of $8 million over the year 1957-58. This year's total amount requested, exclusive of statutory items, is $173.6 million, a decrease of $17.8 million compared to last year's amount. The supplementary estimates tabled on June 1 provide an additional $700,000 for New Brunswick under the heading "harbours and rivers, engineering services". Under the heading of public works for New Brunswick the amount shown for 1958-59 is $2,005,000, and the amount for 1959-60 is $490,000.
Under the heading of public buildings in the Atlantic provinces the 1958-59 total was $6,938,475 compared with the 1959-60 total of $4,248,475, a difference of $2,690,000. Under the heading dealing with public buildings in New Brunswick there are two votes for the completion of the construction of public buildings at Campbellton and Grand Falls and three votes for the construction of new
[Mr. McCleave.l
buildings at Moncton, Sackville and Saint John. Almost the whole decrease of $1,746,000 under public buildings for the three maritime provinces falls to the lot of New Brunswick namely $1,515,000 or 87 per cent of the total decrease.
Under the provision for harbours and rivers in New Brunswick in this year's estimates, Northumberland-Miramichi has only three small wharf repair jobs; Escuminac breakwater repairs at $59,000, Lower Newcastle wharf repairs at $26,500 and Newcastle wharf repairs at $70,000 for a total of $155,000, which is more than will be required since the low bids on these jobs are below the estimated costs.
There are many single items in the list of projects for other parts of New Brunswick which amount to many times the total amount to be spent in Northumberland-Miramichi, even though there are a number of small projects needed in that constituency. These include small landing wharfs, extensions to existing wharves and dredging to improve the Miramichi fishing industry. I trust that when the further supplementary estimates are brought down many of these projects will be included.
I ask the minister to grant the request recently made by the fishermen of Manuels post office and have the necessary survey undertaken immediately. I also request the minister to have his New Brunswick officials make a complete survey of Miramichi fishing facilities with a view to constructing new facilities where none presently exist, and improving existing ones to ameliorate the lot of the fishermen who, as primary producers, toil the hardest for the least return received by any segment of Canadian workers.
When the amendment to the Trans-Canada Highway Act was before the house earlier this session to increase the amount of the fund, I urged the minister to promote a second trans-Canada highway in the northeast section of New Brunswick. This secondary highway would provide a much-needed complete artery from Campbellton to Moncton, filling in the missing link in the highway transportation system in that area at Chatham, where a serious traffic bottleneck exists. Perhaps the minister would give consideration to presenting legislation next session which would make it possible for the federal and provincial governments to enter into agreements for the construction of vital secondary transportation arteries.
In connection with highways other than primary or secondary trans-Canada highways, the citizens of northern and eastern New Brunswick are aroused over reports

that a corridor road is to be constructed between central Canada and southern New Brunswick through the state of Maine. Reports state that federal assistance will be provided in conjunction with the provinces of New Brunswick and Quebec. While it is realized that the federal government has no jurisdiction over any highway which the provinces of New Brunswick and Quebec might construct, and that it certainly has no jurisdiction within the state of Maine, it is on any grounds inconceivable that the federal government would assist in any way in the construction of this proposed corridor road, a highway which would have an extremely adverse economic result in the northern and eastern sections of New Brunswick. The people in this area would appreciate the minister's views with regard to such federal assistance, and on their behalf I plead with the minister to use his influence to turn down any requests for aid.
A newspaper report which appeared in the Moncton Daily Times of May 9, 1959 stated that proposal of the provincial government to assist in the construction of a tourist wharf in the town had been accepted by the committee of the whole of the Shediac town council. The proposal was that the Shediac town council should provide $16,000, the provincial government $24,000 and the federal government the remaining $120,000.
Requests have been made by the Chatham town council for federal financial assistance toward the construction of a highway bridge, a project of much greater importance than the tourist wharf. Requests were also made to the provincial government in this connection, but both requests for assistance toward this bridge project fell on deaf ears. Apparently the ears are more receptive in the case of a tourist wharf. How can government assistance toward the construction of a tourist wharf be reconciled with refusal to grant assistance toward the building of a bridge on a main provincial highway? I am not objecting to assistance to the town of Shediac for a tourist wharf in this lobster capital of the world. I feel, however, that other undertakings are worthy of support, undertakings of a more vital nature which unfortunately have not been assisted.
On May 4 of this year, as reported in the Commercial-World, of May 7, 1959, representatives of the Chatham board of trade, R. J. Martin, M.L.A., J. W. Clarke and E. J. McKinnon, met with the Chatham town council and requested a grant of $1,000 in order to continue the campaign for a bridge at Chatham, $400 of this amount to be used to defray the expenses of a delegation to Ottawa to be undertaken-and here I quote
Supply-Public Works from the newspaper-"in an effort to get a commitment from public works Minister Green relative to the proposed bridge." The request for $400 to defray expenses to Ottawa was granted. The remainder was held in abeyance, with a decision to be made when the delegation had presented its report.
I do not know whether this delegation did visit Ottawa. If the delegation has in fact met the minister, then the citizens of Chatham and the surrounding area will appreciate learning from the hon. gentleman the results of the representation. The outcome of the meeting is awaited with great interest, and I hope when the minister sums up our discussions he will make reference to it. The May 6, 1958 issue of the Chatham Gazette reporting on a meeting of the bridge committee with the Minister of Public Works at Chatham a few days earlier stated:
At the conference held with Hon. Mr. Green every assurance was given the committee by Mr. Green that he would co-operate in every possible way and explore every available channel to enhance the erection of this bridge. It is therefore planned that the committee will, if necessary, journey to Ottawa and discuss the matter further with the hon. Minister of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: What date was that?


George Roy McWilliam: The May 6, 1958, issue of the Chatham Gazette. The same newspaper article also stated:
The bridge committee which met Hon. Howard Green, federal Minister of Public Works, here in Chatham, Is now seeking to arrange a conference with Hon. Hugh John Flemming, premier of New Brunswick, to explore prospects for immediate action for the survey and erection of this bridge.
Premier Flemming took no action toward a survey, the first essential step. However, the town council of Chatham authorized a survey which was completed recently at the town's expense. I do not know if the minister was misquoted in this newspaper article or if his remarks were received with too much optimism and were elaborated upon. Perhaps the reporter at the meeting was carried away with enthusiasm and misquoted the minister, because knowing the minister as I do I think he would be very careful in what he said about assistance in the erection of a bridge that forms part of a highway within a province.
On the other hand, if the minister was reported correctly then perhaps he will inform the committee what channels he explored to further the erection of the bridge. Perhaps he will tell the committee if he contacted the provincial authorities in this connection and, if so, with what results. Whatever action was taken by the minister, it is obvious that the federal government does not assume any responsibility.

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On February 4, 1959, nine months less two days later, the minister was asked the following question by myself as recorded at page 674 of Hansard of that date:
Has the federal government any responsibility for New Brunswick highway No. 11-of which the proposed bridge at Chatham would form a part?
His reply on that occasion was as follows:
No responsibility in respect of New Brunswick highway No. 11. Should a bridge be constructed, however, there would be the normal approval required under the Navigable Waters Protection Act.
This approval, known to most people, is to safeguard against obstructions to water navigation and does not provide for financial assistance. In view of the government's answer of February 4 of this year, it appears that nothing of a concrete nature can be gained by sending a delegation to Ottawa unless the provincial minister of public works were a member of the delegation and the plans of the provincial government were placed before the federal minister and were known to the members of the Chatham board of trade delegation.
This same newspaper article of May 6, 1958 promoted the view that it is essential that conferences be held with the provincial department of public works at Fredericton, seeking federal co-operation. Although conferences were held they brought no tangible results. It is my view that before any assistance can be secured at the federal level the provincial government must make its position clear; otherwise efforts will get the same runaround for this vitally needed bridge which is the treatment that has been received for some time.
On page 453 of the book of estimates there is an item of $360,000 to be voted for an investigation to determine the feasibility of constructing a proposed causeway across Northumberland strait, including the opening of a test quarry. The minister's statement in connection with the proposed Northumberland strait causeway was not very encouraging to the people of Prince Edward Island and many others. The minister outlined what was encountered in this survey with respect to tidal and ice conditions that will result if a causeway is constructed. He spoke of other factors that will be considered, following which the economic feasibility of the project will be decided.
If the minister is in a position to give an approximate date when a report will be issued or when an interim report will be made public, the people of Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick would appreciate such an announcement. In any event they look for a report at the earliest possible date and urge that the matter be expedited. Now that 
the economic survey has been undertaken they are keenly conscious that the $184 million South Saskatchewan dam project is under way.
A disturbing incident took place recently that is detrimental to the building up of an efficient staff for the performance of a public service. Following the change in government in 1957 the employees of government dredges No. 23 and No. 24 were retained. Provincial officials in charge of the dredges expressed complete satisfaction with all these employees, who were trained men giving good service. Attempts were made in 1957 through political channels to have certain individuals fired. No changes were made in 1957 or in 1958, and crews were kept intact despite further political efforts.
One reason for the previous failure of political efforts to have certain members of the crews dismissed was that none of the crew members took any part whatever in the political campaigns of 1957 and 1958.
When operations commenced this season four of the crew were not called for work and to this day they have received no notice that they would be continued in employment. Four new men were taken on as replacements. These were men untrained in this type of work, with no previous experience on the water or with dredging equipment. In our experience with dredging equipment the dismissal of men who have served faithfully over the years is a retrograde step in the building up of the public service. The action was taken solely on political grounds, despite what the minister said with regard to employees of his department retaining their jobs as long as their services were satisfactory and they did not take part in politics.


Mr. Brooks:: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question? Are these permanent employees about which the hon. member is speaking or temporary employees who are hired every year?


George Roy McWilliam: The minister well knows they were temporary employees hired each year, but regardless of that-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I might say that I know that in past years they were hired by the former government because they were political supporters of the Liberal party, and were hired on the recommendation of the hon. member who now has the floor.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are you suggesting the same thing is happening now?


George Roy McWilliam: Regardless of that, Mr. Chairman, these men gave good service over the years and relinquished any political affiliations. I maintain they are deserving of

better treatment than they received, because of the excellent service they have faithfully rendered over the years.
Perhaps the minister tried to retain those experienced workers, as is indicated by the fact that no dismissals were made in 1957 or 1958, right until this year. However, it appears that the local political pressure became too strong, and the minister finally agreed to the termination of the service of trained personnel in favour of inexperienced men-and I trust the Minister of Veterans Affairs will listen to this-even displacing war veterans by non-veterans.
The minister's answer to the starred question evaded giving any good reason for the dismissals. The only answer given was that the jobs were seasonal positions, a very weak reason. In my opinion it was the machinery used to dismiss faithful and experienced employees who were branded as Liberals but who, despite what any local Conservative patronage committee may say, took no part in the 1957 or 1958 election campaigns. I trust the Minister of Veterans Affairs will note this, too. I probably realized at the start that the story-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I have noted a whole lot regarding the hon. member's constituency, and the main thing I have noticed in the past is this. In the years when his party was in power all the men who obtained employment were of his party and were recommended by him, and anyone belonging to any other party had no chance at all.


George Roy McWilliam: Well, that is the view of the Minister of Veterans Affairs, and I know everybody realizes it is purely a political point of view on these matters. I am sure that in his long experience as a representative of the people when he was in the provincial government, and now that he holds the patronage here with the federal government, the minister never recommended any Liberal for any job under his jurisdiction.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: You do not know that.


George Roy McWilliam: From the point of view of building up the public service and protecting the rights of employees gained through services rendered, and for the maintenance of a good level of production for public money expended in this essential service, it is unfortunate that this action was taken.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I repeat my request for a survey of fishing facilities directed toward new construction and improvements to existing facilities for the Mira-michi fishing industry. On behalf of the fishermen who are primary producers of many species of fish from Miramichi waters, who toil under great handicaps, who are deserving
Supply-Public Works of adequate facilities to assist them in their daily labours, I urge the minister, in co-operation with the Minister of Fisheries, to authorize a complete study and survey. At the same time a survey should be made of wharf and dredging facilities for the export and import trade of the Miramichi.


Mr. McGrath:: Mr. Chairman, I shall transgress only a short time on the committee's time to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the minister on his new appointment. It is perhaps the only opportunity that hon. members will have during this session to offer congratulations to the minister. I want him to bear in mind that this is not meant to contribute to a delay in the passage of his estimates.
Since he came to the cabinet almost two years ago the Minister of Public Works has done a very commendable job and a tremendous service to Canada, particularly to the Atlantic provinces. There are in the province of Newfoundland-indeed in the maritime provinces-many outstanding works which are evidences of the great interest of the Minister of Public Works in the less endowed areas of Canada.
I want to assure the minister of the high esteem in which he is held in my constituency in the province of Newfoundland. The interest he has taken in my province, as I say, has been made manifest on many occasions. My one regret is that because of time, because of the many demands on the minister, he has not had an opportunity since becoming Minister of Public Works to visit the province of Newfoundland and see for himself just exactly what a tremendous job is being undertaken by his department in that province.
I could speak, for example, of the mammoth St. John's harbour development, which in a few years' time will make this old seaport of St. John's into a great modern harbour. I think, too, of the community stage program, which has received a fair amount of criticism from some hon. members here and in other places as well. But I will say this with regard to that community stage program, Mr. Chairman. It is the first concrete and definite step that has been taken in many years by the federal government to materially aid the Newfoundland fishermen. It is my hope that this community stage program which is now in course of development stage-perhaps it could be termed an experimental stage-will be enlarged and extended in the years ahead.
Perhaps the greatest criticism that has been made of the community stage program is that it is inadequate in that it covers only 20 of the hard-pressed Newfoundland fishing centres; but we must realize that this is
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Supply-Public Works something new, and it must proceed slowly on the basis of trial and error. I can only hope that as this community stage program proceeds it will meet with that degree of success which was intended.
Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Public Works has now been called upon to serve his country in the very important field of world diplomacy and world politics. I think it is a great tribute to his ability that he should be called upon to serve Canada in these troubled times. In paying this little tribute to the minister, as I said before, I do so with a certain amount of regret because he is leaving the portfolio of public works. To those who follow in his footsteps I suggest that he has set a standard which will be quite difficult to maintain. However, I am sure the minister will always retain that interest in Canadian affairs generally for which he has been noted down through the years.
Public works in a province such as Newfoundland play a more important role than in perhaps any other part of Canada, because they contribute not only to the material improvement of harbours, rivers and public buildings but also contribute greatly to the economy of this retarded area. One has just to scan the minister's estimates for this year to see that many important works are now being undertaken by the Department of Public Works which I suggest should have been started years ago. They have been started now because of that greater degree of interest which exists in the Department of Public Works.
I think of the huge wharf reconstruction at Bay de Verde; the wharf extension and shed at Bell island; the wharf reconstruction and extensions at Carmanville and Catalina; the harbour improvements at Codroy on the west coast; the huge wharf now under construction at Goose Bay, Labrador; the breakwater construction at Grand Bank; the building of the large wharf at Harbour Breton on the south coast; the wharf construction at Harbour Main; the harbour improvements at Port aux Basques and, of course, the $13 million St. John's harbour development. There can be no greater tribute to the tenure of office of the present Minister of Public Works, Mr. Chairman, than can be found in the estimates for the coming year.
In conclusion I should like also at this time to pay tribute to the hard working staff, the district engineer and the staff, of the Newfoundland region. Nowhere else in Canada do public works present such a challenge as in Newfoundland and, as I said before, nowhere else in Canada are public works so important.
I would recommend to the minister and to his officers that they bear this in mind when
tMr. McGrath.]

they view the various requests that come from time to time for additional staff. There have been additions to the staff of the Newfoundland office in recent months, but with all due respect I suggest that the staff of the Newfoundland office is still inadequate. They make up, perhaps, for lack of numbers in the quality of the personnel employed in the public works office in Newfoundland.


Mr. Tucker:: I feel that first I must express my personal regrets at the departure of the now acting Minister of Public Works from that post. I offer him my sincere congratulations upon his appointment to the position of Secretary of State for External Affairs. I am sure this house is of the belief that he will do his best in that important post, just as he has in the past during his term as Minister of Public Works. We all wish him every success. While not always agreeing with his decisions I must admit that I found the acting minister a very fair man in all his dealings. I now wish him well. I believe in sending flowers while the minister is alive and can smell them. I had hoped that he would remain in office until all the wharves in my riding had been constructed or repaired. I hope when his successor is appointed he will give a sympathetic hearing and reasonable consideration to the many requests which he is sure to receive from me from time to time.
I feel that I should also publicly pay tribute to the officials of the Department of Public Works in their sincere endeavour to do their best in the interests of all concerned at all times. I extend my sincere gratitude to all the officials.
In my riding of Trinity-Conception there are many fishing communities, some of which are very important because of the quantity of codfish produced and the many fish plants that are located there. I am glad the Department of Public Works has tried to assist the fishermen in these areas. For instance, at Harbour Grace approximately $136,000 has been spent during the past five years on harbour improvements for the benefit of the fishermen. At Catalina island, in the northern part of my riding, approximately $745,000 has been spent during the past five years. Approximately one-quarter of all the Newfoundland salt codfish is exported from the Catalina island area. A model fish plant is also located at this harbour and is operated by Fisheries Products Limited.
There is a large federal experimental salt fish drier at Catalina on the premises of S. W. Mifflin Limited. A dredging program was also carried out here, but more dredging is required to make it easier for ships to enter and leave the harbour. A coastal wharf has been built and now a fishermen's wharf is

being constructed. In the Bay de Verde and Port de Grave area the department has also spent much money during the past five years. These are two very important fishing centres, and we know these expenditures have been justified.
There are still, however, many more areas in which public works improvements would be of great economic benefit. Many of these areas have already been brought to the attention of the minister from time to time by way of petitions, letters and telephone calls, and I must say that I have received reports on all but, as may be expected, they have not always been favourable. For instance, last year I presented a petition to the Department of Public Works for a wharf at Dildo South, where there is a large whaling and fresh fish operation and from which point I believe the only mink feed delivery service in Canada operates, catering to some 25 mink ranchers in the Blaketown area. Last year about 25,000 mink pelts were produced, which brought some $500,000 to Newfoundland. However, more fresh fish is needed to provide additional feed for the mink. I understand the Department of Public Works, after making a careful survey, is considering the [DOT]construction of a wharf there. This will be [DOT]of great assistance to all the people in that general area.
There are many places where the fishermen have requested extensions to the present wharfing facilities. The following places come to mind: Britannia; Caplin Cove; Chance [DOT]Cove; Deer Harbour; Gooseberry Cove; Green's Harbour, eastern end; Heart's Desire; Lead Cove; Little Heart's Ease; New Harbour; Norman's Cove; Spaniard's Bay and Sunny-side. Requests have also been received for the construction of wharves from the following .settlements:	Bishop's Cove; Burnt Point;
Butter Cove; Grate's Cove; Green's Harbour, western end; Hillview; Harbour Grace south; Melrose; Monroe; Queen's Cove; Sunnyside; Thornlea and Winterton. Many of these requests were made last year, and I am sure The Department of Public Works will give them serious consideration.
When those wharves have been extended or constructed, Mr. Chairman, I shall have much pleasure in furnishing the names of other settlements which need public works attention. Once again I suggest that docking facilities be established at Harbour Grace and Clarenville in order to take care of the boats requiring docking facilities, because the Canadian National Railways dock at St. John's is not able to cater to the boats and schooners requiring its facilities.
A fishermen's landing is also badly needed in Carbonear, and I am hopeful that the
Supply-Public Works department will take care of that matter this year. I am convinced that the present plan for community stages should be continued, as I am sure they will prove to be extremely beneficial. I strongly suggest that, because of weather conditions, much of the public works construction be carried out in Newfoundland during the early spring or the late fall rather than in the winter months.
I believe the federal government should also give increased financial assistance to Newfoundland to complete the trans-Canada highway, because Newfoundland has not a standard gauge railway and consequently cannot cater to the trade of the province adequately and at competitive cost in any favourable proportion as compared with the situation in the other provinces of Canada. It is the duty of the federal government of Canada, to provide Newfoundland with a railway service in keeping with that in the rest of Canada, to keep the cost of the transportation of goods, etc. into and out of Newfoundland at the same level as in the other provinces. Consequently any extra financial assistance given to Newfoundland to complete her portion of the trans-Canada highway will only square up matters with the province of Newfoundland. Newfoundland then will not be receiving in proportion any more favourable treatment than that which the other provinces of Canada are receiving from the federal government.


Mr. Stewart:: Without unduly delaying the passage of the estimates I should like to be permitted at this time, on my own behalf, on behalf of the people of my constituency and of the people of the province of New Brunswick generally, to express to the Minister of Public Works our appreciation for what he has done for our province during his tenure of office. The universal approval of the announcement made yesterday indicates the cherished position he holds in this house, and I think that is the position he holds in the minds of the Canadian people generally.
For a long period of time the present Minister of Public Works has been held in very high esteem by the people of my province. I feel that I would be remiss in my duty as a member from that province if I did not convey to him at this time our feelings and our appreciation of what he has done for us. I should like also to convey on behalf of the people of my constituency, particularly the people of Campobello island, appreciation for his co-operation and for the assistance he has given to that part of New Brunswick.
The Minister of Public Works has brought to that department a realistic appreciation of the problems confronting the people of New
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Supply-Public Works Brunswick, particularly the fishermen of my constituency. He introduced and sponsored through this house the Campobello-Lubec bridge bill which provides for a connecting link between the island of Campobello and Lubec in the state of Maine. On Tuesday of this week the governor of Maine signed the bill which provides for the construction of this connecting bridge. When the film is made of the play "Sunrise at Campobello" depicting the early life of the late Franklin D. Roosevelt, possibly the stars of the cast will be able to journey to the island of Campobello over a bridge made possible in part at least through the efforts of the present Minister of Public Works.
The people of Campobello wish him well in his new appointment. They are sorry to see that he is leaving the department he now heads. I am sure they would wish me to express to him our appreciation of what he has done and to wish him well in his new field. We are confident that his success in the future is assured in keeping with his past record.


Lionel Chevrier: My remarks will be brief and will be directed toward one aspect only of the minister's activities. However, before I embark upon them perhaps the committee will allow me to reiterate my congratulations to the minister on his appointment to this new and high office to which he has been called by the government. May I say to him that I am delighted that he will remain house leader for the rest of the session but that, on the other hand, I am sorry that because of the importance of his new duties he may not be able to carry on those duties during the following session in 1960. No one will miss him more than I. I am happy to say that during the time he has occupied that office of house leader our relationship has been of the happiest kind and certainly one of great co-operation.
I rose to speak about port development along the St. Lawrence. I am particularly interested in this matter not only because of my close association with it during the almost ten years in which I held the position of Minister of Transport and then in another position as president of the St. Lawrence seaway authority for three years.
Again I want to bring to the attention of the minister and his officials the importance of adequate port facilities all along the seaway. It has been said repeatedly by economists that more money is now being spent by industry from the lower St. Lawrence right up to the head of the lakes for industrial development than on the seaway itself. If that is the case, and I believe it to be,
[Mr. Stewart.l

then it is of equal importance that the ports which come under the jurisdiction of the minister be adequately equipped.
I speak first of all, of course, of the ports in the province of Quebec. I am particularly interested in them. But before doing so I should like to remind the minister of a suggestion I made in 1957 and again in 1958 both to the Minister of Public Works and to the Minister of Transport, but to which apparently little or no heed was paid. Perhaps it was not thought to be important at the time. However, I believe circumstances have shown that it was important.
The recommendation I made was that a body be set up to make an economic survey of all the regions of the St. Lawrence seaway and how those regions would be affected, including the ports, from one end to the other. While I was not successful in 1957 in convincing the government that this was something that should be done, I was successful in getting a recommendation in the annual report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. While I do not have it available at the moment, and I do not want to delay these estimates, it is clearly a recommendation in the report of 1958 that an economic survey be made of all the regions and areas affected by the seaway.


Howard Charles Green: I am sorry; I did not hear the last few words.


Lionel Chevrier: -an economic survey of the different geographic regions of Canada affected by the seaway.
Now I come back to these ports. I am particularly interested, of course, in the lower St. Lawrence ports, because they come neither under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Transport nor under the jurisdiction of the national harbours board; I think they fall under the Department of Public Works. I refer to Seven Islands, Baie Comeau, Ri-mouski and other such ports. I happen to know that at Baie Comeau there is a vast development going on now arising out of the seaway, and that is the construction of a large grain elevator which it is estimated will look after new traffic such as the grain shipments which it is expected will come down the seaway.
I suggest that if private industry can go to the length of an expenditure of that nature-I have not the figure before me now but I know it is a matter of many millions of dollars-the Department of Public Works should give consideration to providing facilities at that fast-growing community.


Howard Charles Green: May I ask the hon. member a question. On May 21, at page 3915 of Hansard,

I dealt with the construction going on in the lower St. Lawrence area. Has the hon. member seen that?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, I have, but I was wondering if the minister felt that was enough under the circumstances, because there will be great development in that area. I would say it is anticipated that there will be great development because of this increased movement and the fact that the ships will go from the head of the lakes now right down to Montreal and other St. Lawrence ports without transshipment. Therefore new, more modern and more up to date facilities are required at these ports; and while I have seen the minister's statement I was just wondering if that was going far enough.
I am going to curtail my remarks, but I do want to deal with the ports in the province of Ontario. I spoke at Port Arthur some weeks ago, and I was astounded to find that practically nothing had been done at the lakehead toward development. I know the minister has had a survey group look into the actual conditions and possible future harbour and other requirements along the St. Lawrence river as a result of the completion of the seaway, and one such group went to Cornwall, Belleville, Kingston, and other ports right up to Toronto.
There is quite a bit of discussion right now as to what should be done at the city of Cornwall, and I am sorry to say there is not nearly as much being done there as there should be. There are places, for instance like Kingston, that are complaining that they are off the beaten path, some distance away from the deep channel; but notwithstanding that, Kingston is going to become quite an important port for down river traffic. In fact one large corporation has already indicated its intention of making the city of Kingston a base for future developments.
What I am coming to now is this. Take a place like the city of Cornwall. That port is right on deep water. Both extremities have deep water facilities of over 27 feet, and can therefore take the 25J feet draft vessels. It seems to me that in the two years the government has been in office more attention should have been given to that community. I know that representations have been made by the hon. member for Stormont, but I am sure he will not mind my rising in the House of Commons at this time because of my close association with that community, and I do not rise for any other purpose than to be helpful. All I say is that there are all the facilities in the world, and I do wish the minister would give some special attention to that port.
Supply-Public Works
On the whole I rose simply to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that in the United States large sums of money are being spent in anticipation of future traffic, and it seems to me that we should be giving the same attention on this side of the international line.


Mr. Pascoe:: May I call it one o'clock?
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
James Ernest Pascoe: I realize that the minister would appreciate getting his estimates through this committee as expeditiously as possible. We wish to assist him in that regard, so I will take only a very brief period of the time of this committee.
However, I wish to express my appreciation, and the appreciation of the constituents of Moose Jaw city, to the minister with regard to the construction of our new federal building which was made possible by the hon. gentleman's decision shortly after he assumed office as Minister of Public Works. The new federal building in Moose Jaw is now rising rapidly and will be open early next year. The final vote for $600,000 for the completion of the building appears in the estimates before us. Last year there was a vote of $500,000 for the new building, and newspapers give some idea of its proportions.
Moose Jaw city has been built up very greatly in the last two years, particularly in the northwest and southwest areas, and I contend that this is due very largely to the housing program of the Department of Public Works. The minister can be very proud of the success of his efforts in this regard, and I trust that his successor in the department will follow his fine example.
Through the fortunes of constituency redistribution I also represent the outer-the growing-areas of Regina city, and here, also, the minister's housing program has been the means of very rapid expansion. I know his efforts, and the efforts of his department, are very greatly appreciated. At the present time there is a program for a large rental housing project in north Regina an area which, as I said, is included in Moose Jaw-Lake Centre. I have had something to do with the arrangements for this proposed project and I hope the minister will be in a position to make a definite announcement in the near future.
Of course, as a Moose Jaw resident I will draw the minister's attention to the need for further extensions of this program in Moose

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Jaw. There are other items included in these estimates dealing with repairs and improvements to various public buildings in Saskatchewan. Some of these buildings are, I am sure, in Moose Jaw-Lake Centre. We welcome this extra work and this indication of the minister's continued interest on our behalf.
Before I resume my seat I wish to take this opportunity to offer my personal congratulations and the congratulations of the people of Moose Jaw-Lake Centre to the minister upon his appointment as Secretary of State for External Affairs. I am sure that after all the statements which have been made by previous speakers, all of which I endorse wholeheartedly, the minister will know that he has the best wishes of all members and of Canadian people in his new call to service for Canada. We can rest assured that the external affairs of this country are in good hands. Once again, while he is still Minister of Public Works I wish to thank the hon. gentleman on behalf of Moose Jaw-Lake Centre for the co-operation he has always given us in tackling our problems, particularly our housing problems.


Mr. Granger:: In common with most hon. members I am very interested in the estimates of the Department of Public Works. I come from a riding where most of the people live in seaport towns or small outport settlements and their interest in marine works in particular is very keen indeed.
I should like for a moment to talk about the value of small works in such places as these, places where very often the sea is the highway and the boat and the wharf take the place of the car and the road. Most of these places are fishing settlements and some of these settlements are exposed; they are not all built in good harbours; they are built in shallow coves where some improvement on nature is necessary if the fishermen are to pursue their vocation over a period of reasonable length.
In some of these fishing settlements a small breakwater can make all the difference between a short fishing season and a long one, or between a fishing season which is constant and one which is interrupted by storms which compel fishermen to haul up their boats. Small breakwaters, not costing very much money in some instances, can make half decent small harbours; practical harbours where boats can remain at anchor during a storm.
Then there are places where for physical and economic reasons breakwaters are not practicable. In such places, small slipways, complete with either power winches or hand winches could be utilized for hauling boats
IMr. Pascoe.]
out of the water rapidly when storms approach and then enabling them to be launched fairly quickly when the sea is again fit for fishing.
Then there is the small landing wharf. Apart from being a place where boats may tie up and the catch may be landed these wharfs become a focal point for fishing activities and, in many cases, they are used for purposes far beyond the original intention of the wharf. They are used to dry nets, to handle fish and to land supplies. Many of these small wharves cost very little and the funds for their construction come out of the miscellaneous or general vote. It is for this reason that I should like to suggest that the minister consider enlarging this miscellaneous vote so as to take care of a greater number of these small marine activities.
The community stages program which began last year will, without doubt, become one of the very best programs thus far instituted for the benefit of fishermen. Just as the small public wharf becomes a focal point for fishermen, so on a larger and more efficient scale is the community stage for the whole fishing community and I do hope that this program will be extended and, if possible, enlarged.
While I do not think I should attempt to name here all the places where community stages should be built, I should like to suggest that St. Anthony, one of the most important fishing towns in the north does need something in the way of community stages. I do not think one community stage would be sufficient there owing to the layout of the town. Two or three should be considered.
I should like to speak briefly about one or two larger projects. Before doing so I should like to thank the minister for the program which has been instituted this year in my riding calling for the completion of the wharf at Battle Harbour, Sop's Arm; the important wharf at Goose Bay mentioned this morning by my colleague the hon. member for St. John's East; and at Hampden, Harbour Round and Ming's Bight and Williams Harbour on the Labrador. I understand, too, the department will be lengthening and enlarging the Canadian National Railways docks at Lewisporte.
All these are vitally needed. I do not want to appear to be greedy and simply say that "these things ought ye to have done and not to have left the other undone". I am very pleased that these projects are being built this year. I do hope, however, that special attention can be given to the port of Botwood this year. This is an important point of shipping for central Newfoundland.

For several years the people of Botwood have urged the construction of a public wharf for their seaport town.
There are some places along the coast of the Labrador where small wharves are necessary. There are places like Baie Verte in Newfoundland, where the asbestos mines are being developed and where a large coastal wharf is needed. I may perhaps be forgiven for calling attention to Woodstock. In connection with this place it was pointed out by the department that it not being a port of call for the C.N.R. steamers a coastal wharf was not necessary. While the C.N.R. pointed out that there not being a wharf at Woodstock, their steamers could not make it a port of call. Within the next twelve months I hope there is sufficient co-operation between the department and the other organization so that some consideration may be given to co-ordinating the building and completion of the wharf with the calling of the steamer.
With respect to public buildings I should like to repeat what I said once before. Small public buildings, even as large public buildings are monuments to Canada. This should be kept in mind when they are being designed. I do not suggest that buildings as large or as ornate as the parliament buildings should be built in small towns but I do suggest that when a building is designed it should adequately portray what Canada is. It should be neat, attractive, well proportioned and adequate and should be designed to house all federal government services in the community.
To illustrate my point I shall refer to Glenwood to which reference has already been made. A post office is badly needed in Glenwood. The Canadian National Telegraphs is putting in a new telephone system which will require a building. Unless there is proper liaison between the two bodies the C.N.T. will have its own small building and the post office will have its own small building. We will have two small buildings, when instead we could have a larger and better building that would be a credit to Canada and honour the name it will bear. At the same time it would be more economical.
I feel rather strongly about the value of these buildings in terms of the impression they create on people in the community and particularly young people who grow up and form their impressions of Canada from the type of buildings on which they see that proud name written.
I should also like to mention the buildings which are nearing completion in St. John's. The customs building and the post office building are both nearing completion. My
66968-9-278
Supply-Public Works understanding is that the previous administration had a program of building to follow the completion of these structures so that employment would be maintained at a reasonable level. There were to be fisheries, transport and unemployment insurance buildings. As we near completion of the buildings now under construction I trust that the department has in mind plans for future building.
It is a matter of personal pride for me to know that harbour developments are getting well along at St. John's. I supported that development last year and perhaps I may be pardoned for saying that this was planned under the previous administration.
I wish to repeat that a large miscellaneous vote is important. Small wharves, breakwaters, slipways and winches are all vitally important to the development of our fisheries and to the provision of a constant source of employment to those who are engaged in the fishing industry.
I should like to conclude by offering my sincere congratulations to the minister on his new appointment. My pleasure is somewhat tinged with regret because he is leaving the Department of Public Works. I am sure he will bring to his new duties the same spirit of fairness and dedication he has displayed in his present position. I wish also to pay tribute to the officials of his department who year after year work constantly and steadily in the interests of Canada.


Mr. Regnier:: Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege for me to have the opportunity of paying a tribute to the new Secretary of State for External Affairs on behalf of the people of St. Boniface. Yesterday the hon. member for York-Scarborough paid tribute to the minister on behalf of the people in his corner and at this time I should like to pay the same tribute on behalf of those in this corner. This may not be the most privileged part of the house but we in this part of the chamber feel that the minister has been more or less a father to us all.
Sometimes we feel jealous of the opposition parties who are given greater privileges than are we who are members of the Conservative party and who sit in this remote corner of the house but we know this is done because the minister is a great lover of the freedom of parliament and he is really letting hon. members of the opposition parties have as much rope as possible. However, knowing what use they have made of the rope, we also feel the minister has a great love for us in this corner.
I should also like to thank the minister who is also deputy premier and leader of

Supply-Public Works the house for the great benefits that the people of St. Boniface have received since this party came to office. St. Boniface, which is the most important French-speaking city west of the Ottawa river, has been given a satellite television station. It has been given also a channel of equal importance to that given to the English-speaking Canadians. On behalf of the 68,000 French-speaking people of Manitoba, and I might say also on behalf of the four million French-speaking people of Canada, I thank the minister and the present government.
The present minister has the reputation of a man of integrity and of action. One of the great things he has done has been in connection with national housing. Many of those houses have been constructed in Manitoba, but I deplore the fact that none of the minimum cost houses has yet been constructed there. It is not the minister's fault. I believe this plan should be advertised more and I am sure that if minimum cost houses are being provided for the people of Canada it is because the minister feels for the people of less wealth. I believe it is a great thing for them.
I am sorry to see the minister go, but I should like to leave some observations with him regarding national housing. This week
1	received a plan design having to do with Canada's first family H-bomb shelter in connection with civil defence. It is called "The Telegram Family H-Bomb Shelter" for individual dwellings designed in collaboration with civil defence headquarters. I would greatly appreciate it if under national housing a few of the houses were constructed with a shelter and advertised to see what kind of demand there would be for houses with a shelter constructed in the plan. I know there is a great difference of opinion among people generally regarding civil defence. I believe that some leadership should be given by the government. Since the government is interested in the construction of houses for people, they should set the example by constructing a few houses at the start with a shelter. We know that in Sweden no one can construct a dwelling unless he first obtains a permit. He has to agree to spend at least
2	per cent of the value of the dwelling upon a shelter. If this is feasible, knowing the present minister is a man of action, I know that before he leaves his department he will do something in this connection. Thank you.


Mr. Robichaud:: I want to join with other hon. members who have spoken so far in this debate to congratulate the Secretary of State for External Affairs on the high assignment which has been imposed upon him by the Prime Minister. I wish him well in his new portfolio.


My first remarks, Mr. Chairman, on the first item of the public works estimates will be very short. I have two or three questions which I wish to ask the minister, and I am seeking information. First, I should like to know from the minister what decision has been taken with regard to my repeated requests and demands for improvement to the present wharf at Maisonnette? Maisonnette is one of the many fishing communities in my constituency. It is a small bay, a shelter, where we have over 40 fishing boats. Those fishermen are in urgent need of more improvements. Their landings last year amounted to over 1J million pounds of fish. Their present facilities are definitely inadequate. I hope that the request and the demands from the Maisonnette fishermen, which I have placed before the department on many occasions, will be looked at favourably.
Another project which is urgently needed in my constituency is an improvement to the Tracadie gully. The entrance to that gully is practically blocked off by an old, partially demolished breakwater which is a menace to navigation and to the safety of the fishermen. Last year I was notified by the Department of Public Works that the national research council was to undertake a study to determine what could be done to improve the entrance to the Tracadie gully. I would like to know the results of this study? I was also notified by the department that a hydrographic survey was to be undertaken during the present summer, the 1959 season. I should also like to know from the minister what has been done so far to carry out this survey. I know the fishermen of the area are asking that a small causeway be built between Ferguson gully and Tracadie gully. I am inclined to agree with the fishermen that it would improve the entrance to both gullys, which I understand have been a problem to the engineers of the department.
The last question which I would like to ask the minister is what is the situation with regard to the request which has been received for a public building in the town of Shippegan? The present facilities, providing space for the post office and for the three or four offices of the Department of Fisheries, are definitely inadequate. Representations have been made by the town council of Shippegan and by the local chamber of commerce. I should like to know what progress has been made or whether a decision has been reached by the department to provide the town of Shippegan with an adequate public building?
I wish to close my short remarks. I may have one or two small questions to ask on the

different items later on. I should like the minister to give us information on the three points I have mentioned.


Mr. Pigeon:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to congratulate the minister on his appointment as Secretary of State for External Affairs. (Translation):
It is an honour that redounds to his family, his constituency and the whole of Canada. I am convinced that he will be a credit to his country and will be one of the most prominent men of our international life.
Mr. Chairman, at one time the federal government would build retaining walls along river banks. That practice was discontinued a few years ago.
I have here numerous requests made by the city of Joliette and neighbouring communities, as well as from the city of L'Assomption and from the municipalities of L'Epiphanie and Charlemagne, asking for the construction of retaining walls in order to protect public buildings such as colleges, convents or properties with river frontage.
I should be very glad, if at all possible, to know the exact reason why the government decided in the past to discontinue such a policy.
(Text):


Mr. Batten:: I do not intend to long delay the estimates of the minister, but I should like to discuss two or three particular topics at this time. In the northern part of Newfoundland, north of Flower's Cove, in the straits of Belle Isle, there is a large concentration of population in seven or eight settlements. In only one of these settlements so far have we been able to provide any marine construction. Those people who live on this section of the Newfoundland coast are the people who are engaged in the cod fishery and because of the prevailing weather and the distances from the fishing grounds, they must use fairly large and fairly heavy boats. These people who live in these settlements have no protection for these boats. When storms are coming they must of necessity have these boats hauled up and the next morning they have to launch them again. Obviously, a great deal of time is lost in doing this. One can understand, too, that at times these men lose a great deal of their equipment. I have corresponded with the minister about a number of these places and I should like to urge now on behalf of these people that consideration be given to their needs.
Coming farther south along the west coast of Newfoundland, there is an island known as St. John island. This island, for a number of years, has been the site of a large lobster 66968-9-2781
Supply-Public Works pool. The fishermen in St. John bay have now decided that they want to build a fishing establishment on this island, because part of the island has a fairly good harbour protected from the spring ice floes and from the prevailing storms. They, of their own accord and at their own expense, have provided the timber. They have had it cut and landed on site to provide the inshore establishment that will be required. They have been able to provide everything for themselves except a wharf. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that industry of this type on the part of people who want to help themselves should be rewarded. I believe, too, that they should not only be rewarded for their own work but also for the fact that industry in this particular section in which they are engaged will, I believe, turn out to be economically sound. I would hope the minister would give consideration to building a St. John island wharf that would be suitable for the use of the fishermen who will be using this island during the fishing season.
May I make a reference at this time to another fishing settlement on the west coast of Newfoundland known as Parson's Pond. Parson's Pond is a fairly large settlement as fishing villages on the west coast go, and it is composed of a fairly large number of very industrious men. The problem that exists there is, in all probability, not a very simple one. Some dredging is needed and there is cribwork needed around the small harbour itself, as well as a fishermen's wharf-
Two or three years ago the provincial government built a road down through this section which goes across Parson's Pond and it was necessary to build a temporary bridge at that time. I made inquiries of the minister and he replied that further consideration would be given to construction work at Parson's Pond when he could determine what effect this bridge would have on the flow of water from Parson's Pond out to the sea. During the coming season a permanent bridge will be built and I would think there would be sufficient information now to enable a determination to be made of the effect this bridge would have. I would recommend that the minister give very careful consideration to the possibility of marine construction at Parson's Pond.
Farther south along the west coast of Newfoundland we come to the very historic harbour of St. George's. This harbour is formed by a sandy bank which goes out from the mainland and forms a settlement known as Sandy Point. In the last four or five years storms have broken through Sandy Point and as a result what formerly formed the harbour of St. George's is now being

Supply-Public Works gradually washed away. I fear that if this is allowed to continue, in time not only will the harbour of St. George's be destroyed but there will also be a tremendous effect on the fisheries that are carried on in that particular area. I believe that the job of preventing any further erosion now would not be very expensive, but as time goes on and the gap at Sandy Point gets bigger and bigger, Sandy Point will become nothing but an island. In the long run this will be detrimental to the people of St. George's, and the harbour which has been a shelter for ships for so many years.
Last year the minister was able to initiate construction work at Codroy. I visited the settlement in the fall and I saw the work going on there. A good job was being done. I am sorry it was not possible for the company that was given this contract to resume work at an earlier period this year. During the past few months we have had particularly good weather in that section, and I believe a good deal of work could have been provided for the people if the company had decided to go ahead with the construction earlier in the year. I know there are some particular difficulties in the way here, but I would hope construction of these harbour facilities at Codroy would be resumed at the earliest possible date.
I have said before, Mr. Chairman, and I repeat that public works are particularly important in Newfoundland. I think that one thing that is of real importance is that these public works be started as early as possible in the year. The people who live in the Codroy area now are people who over the last five or six months have had no opportunity to earn any money. The result is that those who were dependent on the construction of Codroy harbour and those who were hoping to use this harbour for fishing are finding that the going is a little difficult. If this construction had been started earlier in the year it would have been possible for some men to get employment and possibly also for the fishermen to use what would be there. I would hope that this construction would be started as early as possible because it affects, not only the people in my riding but also a large number of people who live in the constituency of the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo. As in many places in Newfoundland, harbour construction very seldom concerns the one place where construction is to be completed; it also concerns many small places in a certain area. Codroy is a very good example of that.
I have had some correspondence with the minister concerning a peninsula on the west coast of Newfoundland known as Port au


Port peninsula. The people who live there are essentially fishermen. Years ago they were engaged almost 100 per cent in the fishery, but with the coming of the United States air force at Stephenville a number of these men sought work in the construction of this base. Many of them have remained there. While a great many men are able to find jobs at the United States air force base at Stephenville, there are still many more who have to find employment in some other way. Those who live on the Port au Port peninsula must, of necessity, find employment in the fishing industry. I have forwarded to the minister a list of settlements on the Port au Port peninsula which are in urgent need of some marine construction. In fact, I think in one of my letters to the minister I recommended that a survey be made of the whole peninsula to determine what could be done to encourage the fishermen in the trade which they have followed for so long. I hope that the minister will be able to give consideration to these particular places. The time may come-and I know we all hope so-when maybe the world will be in such a position that we shall no longer need these air force bases. When that time comes the great centre of employment for people in this area will have been taken away, and these people will be obliged to go back to fishing.
I would suggest to the minister that careful consideration be given to this matter when construction in the various settlements in the Port au Port peninsula are being considered. A community stage program is one which I think has a great deal of merit. I know that at the moment it is only in the experimental stage. However, from what has been done so far and from the information which the minister has been able to gather, I believe that he or his successor will be able to carry on this program. Port au Port would be one place in Newfoundland-there are others, of course-where this program could well be applied.
Finally, I should like to extend to the minister my personal congratulations on his being appointed Secretary of State for External Affairs and also to extend to him my personal good wishes. I know that not only will he represent Canada with dignity and diligence but also that in the councils of the world he will earn for himself that personal respect which his own country has accorded to him.


Mr. Keays:: Mr. Chairman, may I also extend my congratulations to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. I am sure that

he will bring to his new post the same dignity and savoir faire which he has brought to the portfolio of public works.
On several occasions I have made requests to the Department of Public Works, drawing to their attention the state of affairs that exists in the Magdalen islands with regard to the need for harbours and port facilities. For many years politicians have promised the construction of harbours or wharves here and there. Being one who never makes a promise except that of representing the people to the best of my ability, I do not believe that I have failed in bringing this matter to the attention of the Department of Public Works. Unfortunately, until this year few of the projects had been realized. We are grateful to the Department of Public Works for sending to the islands in October last a team of experts from the Department of Public Works as well as the Department of Transport who have, I believe, prepared a report which is quite favourable to the request of the people of my riding.
As you know, Mr. Chairman, the lot of the fisherman is a hard one. He is subject to the whims and fancies of nature over which he has no control. However, we must bear in mind the fact that he can control the port facilities so that he may be able to approach the shores or leave the shores. Can you imagine that in this age a fisherman who has no land whatever is obliged to buy a 1,600 pound horse, that he is obliged to feed it and acquire the necessary gear to attach to his boat in order to haul his boat off the sands into four feet of water. If the least adverse condition makes it impossible, then the fisherman must spend his day^ on the sand watching others get their day's catch. This necessarily creates much wear and tear on the boat and the cost of maintenance is exorbitant.
We know that this is 1959. We cannot conceive of a situation where methods of one hundred years ago are still in use. No one can believe that a fisherman should subject himself to such slavery. Personally, I believe it is incomprehensible. To raise their boats on the slips or to have their boats thrown on the shore are not conditions consonant with the expectations of this era. I could name places like Etang des Caps, Millerand basin and Oyster basin which are places that have been studied by the officials of the Department of Public Works. These places definitely need quick consideration and development. There is a loss in production which runs into thousands of dollars. There is the physical slavery of those who must pursue that trade.
I know it is the desire of all Canadians to alleviate the sufferings of those who are
Supply-Public Works less fortunate than themselves. I am sure that the expenditure of the money that would be required could be easily justified. Economically speaking that may not be so. However, these are circumstances in which I do not believe we should consider only the economic advantage but rather the survival of twelve thousand people who wish to pursue their trade as it is the only one they know.
In the report that has been made by the department I understand that some of the projects are subject to study by the national research council. For this fact we are grateful to the government. We know that in the future no money will be spent haphazardly but that after consideration of the locality and construction a project will be built which will give long service to the people using it. I trust that the minister will take into consideration the fact that, although many requests are being made throughout the country for the study of projects by the national research council, these people who are fishermen-and fishing is their only means of livelihood-will get, not a preference above all other projects but a fair chance of having some of these projects studied.
In conclusion may I suggest this to the Minister of Public Works before he takes off on his world tours or to meet other people. I invite him down to the Magdalen islands on the week end to see some of these spots. I am sure that the scene which would meet his eyes there would touch a soft spot in his heart and result in bringing to these people the needed facilities.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure the minister does not want to deprive me of an opportunity of making a few observations on the first item on his estimates. Perhaps if some of the other hon. gentlemen would like to make their speeches first I could sit down and allow them to do so. The minister will recall that a year ago I took him on a tour around my constituency and that tour was to a very limited degree fruitful. I think perhaps he has lost his chance to visit Newfoundland now he has moved into higher spheres. Incidentally I do not intend to join others in their obituaries of the minister. I will wait until the flowers really are needed. In the interval I suspect the minister will go on being a politician and I want to keep my hands clean so I can attack him whenever I wish; but that is irrelevant, sir.
I feel that the minister ought to take another tour around the coast of Newfoundland, especially around those beautiful coasts north of Bonavista which was first discovered by Cabot in 1497. That, I might remind the minister, was the beginning of the British empire to which he has always been so much

Supply-Public Works attached. We could end up in Twillingate and have the best lobsters in the world if he could come right away quickly while still Minister of Public Works and on the way he could authorize a lot of wharves, breakwaters and post offices. But I will make a deal with the minister. This is one of the deals one makes which are open and aboveboard. It is open to diplomacy, openly arrived at-I hope. I make the offer to the minister that if he will undertake to draw my speech of last year to the attention of his successor-who I dare say will be the hon. member for Montreal St. James, who is so well qualified for that post-and will get his secretary first to scratch out the few places where something has been done, then I will not make the speech again today. I wonder if the minister would like to reply to that? Of course, I have not finished.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, being still a politician, as the hon. member says, I have to be a little careful about these promises. However, I will be very glad to draw that to the attention of the new minister.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I have a few things to add this year. There is one thing I would like the minister to tell me when he replies, and that is whether the department has in fact any plans for developing a slipway at Bonavista about which there had been a good deal of talk at one time or another in the press. I would also like to add my support to the appeal made by the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador for an increase in the vote for small works. These works are very, very valuable, out of all proportion to their cost. I would like to ask the minister, who is now going to become a real elder statesman and perhaps will be able to look at these problems as a whole and transcend that endless quarrel between the Minister of Public Works and the Postmaster General about who is responsible for the little post offices, to direct his statesmanlike mind to this question in the future and see if something could not be done for the small places where there are no premises to rent and where the kind of post offices which exist at present are really no credit to Canada at all, and see if, even though the revenues may not be very great, something can be done about them.
I would just remind the minister that the nature of the problem is this, that where the old Newfoundland government had a post office the department will replace it always without question. But where a place has grown large since that time, although the revenues in that place may come to be higher than the revenues of many of the places which were large at an earlier stage, the

department has always applied the mainland rule and said that nothing would be done. This is impossible to explain to any Newfoundlander and I think it is an antiquated rule that, after ten years, ought to be abolished. I am not mentioning any of the places where I would like to see these buildings constructed because the minister has them in his files. There is only one single work I do especially want to ask the minister to commend to his successor, and that is the extension to the wharf at Newman's Cove. This has been on my conscience because it was in the program while we were still in office and it did not get done in 1957, and for one reason or another it has not been completed since. This is a very important fishing settlement where the fishery is growing and it really does need special attention. Beyond that, as I say, having lost my schooner on the very night I made that voyage around the coast last year, I hesitated to make the voyage this year and I thank the minister for what he said to save the voyage.
There is just one other thing I cannot refrain from putting on the record. Not long ago I had a letter from the chairman of a public meeting of the citizens of Dead-man's Bay, and there is just one paragraph I would like the minister to commend to his successor. I will not read any of the critical parts of this letter, but I think this part ought to be on the record as a guide for the future. This is a description of what happened when we were in office. This gentleman says:
When the Liberals had to share it-
That is to say, the labour of public works-
-every man had his part. It was all shared alike both work and sticks.
I hope that will be done too by the minister's successor.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, no matter who the minister may be, and I mean including myself, this discussion has been very helpful to the Department of Public Works.


Lionel Chevrier: Cannot you give us some idea?


Howard Charles Green: Considering the estimates is a very useful way of finding out what improvements can be made in the work of the department. My experience with the Department of Public Works has convinced me that it is an extremely efficient department, trying to do a job for the Canadian people. While in opposition I had the responsibility of criticizing the department from time to time, and in that way gained quite a good idea of how it functioned. I would like to

repeat again today my great admiration for the work done by my predecessor, the Hon. Robert Winters, and the deputy he took with him from his former department, Major General Hugh Young, who is still the deputy of the department. They with other officials have built up an excellent team with an excellent team spirit, and it has been one of the most pleasant jobs I have ever undertaken in my life to work with them in this department. I am sure that hon. members will find that the same attitude and the same efficiency will be shown by the department in the years which lie ahead.
After all, it is the great building department of the government services and as one hon. member said last night there will be a steadily increasing amount of work to be done. I believe that future construction by the federal government will be in excellent hands as long as the department is managed as it has been by the present officials.
I do not intend to thank hon. members again for their words of encouragement to myself. I did that yesterday. But I should like to say that I have never felt so humble as I do now having listened to all those words of praise. Last evening I got a message from my colleague the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration pointing out she could not recognize who he was they were speaking about. I must admit I felt very much the same way.
I cannot deal with all the points which have been raised by hon. members, but I should like to deal with some of them briefly beginning with the remarks made by my old friend, the hon. member for Levis. I may tell him that in the department he is considered as a fine member with whom to work and as a great friend. I would have expected that from my association with him down through the years and that is his reputation in the Department of Public Works today, after the splendid work he did as parliamentary assistant.
The hon. member commented on the fact that the estimates of the department this year are lower than they were last year. That, of course, is true, but when one takes into account the increase in the construction work being done by this department for other departments the actual money which will be spent will be almost as much as in the last fiscal year. The hon. member knows that it is not always easy to get over the hurdles placed by the treasury board. I am learning to have considerable respect for that august body. They really did very well for the department this year in view of the fact that taxes were being raised and there were many other problems to be faced.
Supply-Public Works
Then the hon. member referred to the fact that we had not spent as large a percentage of the vote during the last fiscal year as had been spent in the year 1957-58. One very good reason for this was the severe weather during this last winter. That has handicapped the department in a good many of its projects. Then the hon. member asked about a possible conference with the provinces to discuss a new highway program upon the expiry of the present agreement. That agreement continues until the end of 1960, and there is no intention of calling such a conference during the present calendar year. I have had useful discussions with some of the provincial ministers. Last week I met with the minister of highways for Saskatchewan and the minister of public works for Manitoba. All the provincial governments are very much interested in what the policy of the federal government is to be, and I am hoping that next year it will be possible to clarify the situation. It is a little difficult, as I do not see how there can be such a clear-cut policy as the trans-Canada highway policy-the situation is so different in the different provinces. Possibly some policy may have to be adopted which will allow one type of aid in one province and another type of aid in another province in order to serve the national interest. We are, however, very much aware of a need for a decision on this question.
Then the hon. member for Kootenay West had several very useful suggestions to make. He emphasized the need for planning ahead and, of course, that is essential, particularly in a building department of the type of the Department of Public Works. There is a very good economics branch in the department and very useful work is being done in planning projects. Of course, efficiency can always be increased, but I think the department is doing very good work in this regard.
The hon. member also suggested that officials of the department should go around and speak at different centres across the country. That idea has considerable merit, although, like politicians, officials of the department could get into trouble by saying the right thing at the wrong time or vice versa. I do not know just how far a policy of that kind could be followed, but I do agree that good public relations are essential, and I think that is what the hon. member had in mind. He suggested, for example, that the local papers should be informed of plans involving their communities. This would be very helpful and we shall see what we can do along these lines.


Mr. Herridge:: What I particularly had in mind with respect to senior officials was something strictly non-contentious, a subject
4386	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works for example, such as "your federal department of public works and its organization". I was thinking that when it was convenient, and when the officials were in these areas, they might address rotary clubs or chambers of commerce or organizations of that kind.


Howard Charles Green: Well, those suggestions will be given mature consideration.
I do not intend to deal with the questions which have been raised on housing. They can be covered when we come to the items submitted on behalf of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. But I do appreciate the comments which have been made by various hon. members.
The hon. member for Burin-Burgeo had some interesting suggestions to make. He wondered why we let out the hauling of rocks by contract rather than engage people to do it. I am not sure whether I shall be able to follow out the suggestion he made, but we will consider it. He commented on the reduction in expenditure on buildings in Newfoundland. This is because the two large buildings in St. John's are practically complete. These big buildings are the ones that cost the large sums of money. The cost of 15 or 20 small buildings would be equal to the cost of one large one.
The hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador said he thought there had been a plan for a succession of government buildings in St. John's once the two now under construction are completed. We are endeavouring to make the necessary arrangements for a building for the unemployment insurance commission but sufficient progress has not yet been made to go ahead with that building. The officials are not aware of a plan for a succession of buildings in that city.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What about the fisheries building? That certainly was under discussion when we were in office.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, that building is to be paid for by the Department of Fisheries and we are to build it. It should have been included in my remarks as a building to be constructed shortly.
The hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam advocated the establishment of a Fraser river authority to supervise the development of that great river. An attempt is being made to further the co-operation of the different bodies involved with the river but at the moment there is no plan for an overriding authority. That may come eventually but there would be many difficulties to be ironed out before a movement of that kind could be made.
The hon. member for Lincoln suggested that there should be a new war museum.
[Mr. Herridge.l

I heartily agreed with that comment but unfortunately that comes under the Department of National Defence so we cannot do very much about it. He also referred to the temporary buildings in the capital city. That again is a difficult problem. The policy for some years has been to build permanent buildings just as quickly as possible but the government can go only as far as the funds permit and I believe we have to have a sense of proportion and distribute the money that is available, to the extent that can be done, fairly across the country. It is very tempting to build these wonderful new buildings in Ottawa right away or just as fast as possible but experience dictates that one has to go a step at a time. Eventually all the temporary buildings will be replaced.
The hon. member for Hull mentioned the need for another bridge across the river. I agree with him that this need exists. There have been difficulties in reaching agreement as to the financing for such a bridge. It would be interprovincial and I think everyone would agree that the three governmental bodies should join in the erection of such a bridge. At the moment I cannot give the hon. member any idea as to when this objective may be attained but I shall see to it that my successor is made aware of the need for such a structure.
The hon. member for Gaspe spoke of the needs of his constituency. He happens to have one of those ridings which has a very long coastline like the ridings in Newfoundland and along the west coast. We are trying to provide harbour improvements there as quickly as possible and considerable progress has been made. I must say he is a very persistent advocate of work in that riding. In fact, I find that most hon. members are becoming steadily better at the business of urging that things be done in their constituencies.


Mr. Bourgei:: So was the previous hon. member for Gaspe.


Howard Charles Green: Of course, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is a past master in this particular type of undertaking. I was somewhat afraid that he was going to take me on another tour of his riding. Perhaps that is the reason I met his request so quickly.
The hon. member for Halifax pointed out the need for consideration being given to paraplegics when constructing public buildings. I agree with his suggestion. We have just recently changed the entrance to the new public building being erected in Souris, Prince Edward Island. The officials assure me they will do the best they can to see that these

Canadians are not handicapped because of the type of entrances placed on public buildings.
The hon. member for Northumberland-Miramichi felt there had not been sufficient money spent in his constituency but I would remind him that we have just finished a public building in Newcastle which cost nearly $350,000.


George Roy McWilliam: Built by the former government, I might add.


Howard Charles Green: No, we put up practically all the money.


George Roy McWilliam: The contract was awarded before the election.


Howard Charles Green: I think we have done fairly well in this respect.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Have you named it?


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member also referred to the bridge over the Miramichi at Chatham and wanted to know what the policy of the government is with regard to that bridge. He quoted from what I believe is his family's newspaper. In any event it is a good newspaper and the paper quoted my remarks at some length for which I am grateful. The situation there is that this bridge is not on the trans-Canada highway and there is no basis at the present time on which the federal government could share in the costs. However, under a highway policy to follow the completion of the trans-Canada highway policy this bridge would be covered if the particular highway were made part of the system which was to receive assistance from the federal government.
This is what I pointed out to the committee which met me while I was campaigning without much success in this riding a little over a year ago. I have not had a delegation from the riding visit me here. I took it from the hon. gentleman's remarks that he was under the impression that such a delegation had been here but I think that was wrong.


George Roy McWilliam: If I may interrupt with the minister's permission I would like to say that I quoted from the Chatham newspaper, the Gazette. I have no connection whatever with the paper, not that I would be averse to having the minister quoted at length in any paper with which I were connected.
I tried to point out to the minister at that time that I felt-and I think he will find it in Hansard-the reporter who covered the meeting was a little over-optimistic in what the minister said. I share the minister's view that the provincial government is responsible for the bridge until such time as a road is built which becomes a section of the trans-Canada highway.
66968-9-279
Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member referred to a proposed road running from Quebec through Maine into New Brunswick. The officials of the department have no knowledge of any such projected road. He also mentioned Shediac.


George Roy McWilliam: A tourist wharf. Perhaps I can tell the minister that it was a meeting of the town council and the provincial secretary-treasurer of the province of New Brunswick said that in regard to the proposal the federal government would share up to the amount of $130,000 in the construction of a tourist wharf.


Howard Charles Green: With respect to the proposed tourist wharf at Shediac, the town authorities and the provincial government have presented a proposal to the department whereby the construction of a wharf to improve facilities for the tourist industry might be undertaken on a shared cost basis. Our officials have carried out an investigation and the estimated cost of a suitable structure would be in the neighbourhood of $160,000 to $175,000. There is no doubt that Shediac is a very popular resort area, and tourism plays a big part in the economic life of this community. There is a small element of fishery involved as well. However, to date the department has not completed its examination of this proposal, so that no decision has been reached.
The hon. member also referred to some employees on a government dredge whom he said had been dismissed. There were no employees dismissed. There were no employees whose terms of employment were terminated. I must make it perfectly clear that employees on the dredges are hired for the summer. When they finish the work they have not any right to consider that they are entitled to come back again the next spring. In many cases they have been rehired, but there is absolutely no right to this. I really think that the members of the opposition have not very much complaint against me for the way in which I treated employees who were in the employ of the department before we took office. There might be more cause for complaint from this side of the house on that score.
I was interested in the statement made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate when he read from a letter. I have been saving a letter of reference for nearly a year. This is from Wreck Cove, Nova Scotia dated December 27, 1958.


John Whitney Pickersgill: How do you spell the name?


Howard Charles Green: It is Wreck Cove, Nova Scotia. I do not know whether this is a name for the hon. member or not. The letter is addressed to:
4388	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works Mr. Robert Muir, M.P.,
Sydney Mines.
Nova Scotia.
Dear Sir:
The work at the shore at Wreck Cove which has been under way since November 10, is just about completed.
If there had been any discrimination in connection with the employing of men on this project, you would have been advised of same before now. So. since there was none, I think it only fair to advise you accordingly.
This work, under the foremanship of Alex Smith, has been carried on in a very fair manner. All the available men in a given area were employed on this project without any consideration as to political affiliations.
We want you to know, as well as Mr. Smith, that we deeply appreciate the fairness shown in employing men at Wreck Cove.
Wishing you the compliments of the season, I am
Yours truly,
Norman J. MacAskill
President, Victoria County Liberal Association.
It is really dangerous to read that letter in the committee but I did so simply to prove that while we may not have been perfect, we have done pretty well.
The hon. member for Trinity-Conception said he wished me to smell the flowers while I was still able to do so. I greatly appreciate that remark. He also dealt with the trans-Canada highway in Newfoundland. I agree that there is a special problem in that province in connection with this highway, a problem which will have to be dealt with as a separate one.
The hon. member for Charlotte spoke of the Campobello-Lubec bridge. As he pointed out, the governor of Maine has now signed a bill authorizing that state to participate; therefore, we shall be getting ahead with the construction in the very near future. The real credit for this bridge goes not to the Minister of Public Works, but to the hon. member himself who has been most helpful and, of course, most persistent in getting action on this bridge.
The hon. member for Laurier raised a very important problem in connection with the opening of the seaway and the development of the lower St. Lawrence river. We all realized that the seaway would bring tremendous changes to this part of Canada; in fact, to a very large part of Canada, but I do not think any of us realized just how extensive those changes would be. The department has done a great deal in the way of making plans for new harbours, various other projects and in the lower St. Lawrence, but I have reached the conclusion that a great deal more will have to be done. This seaway development is going to be of even greater importance than most of us expected.


The Deputy Chairman:: I am sorry to advise the minister that his time has expired, but I assume the committee will give him unanimous consent to continue.


John Whitney Pickersgill: For the last time.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful to hon. members for giving me extra time. We have an excellent team in the government service which was set up, incidentally, by my predecessor, a team consisting of officials from the Department of Transport and the Department of Public Works, and on occasion representatives of other departments are called in as well. In my time in the department this team has done excellent work, visited many centres in Canada and along the seaway. They have investigated conditions at Kingston, Brock-ville, Morrisburg, Prescott, Cornwall, Dorion, which is in Quebec, Collingwood, Ontario, the lakehead harbours, Midland, Oshawa, Port Colborne, Sarnia, Sault Ste. Marie, Whitby.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And Windsor?


Howard Charles Green: Oh, we have a very detailed investigation for Windsor. Then, there is Riviere du Loup, Pointe au Pere, Pointe au Pic, Rimouski, Matane, Chandler and Gaspe. And further investigations will be made. There is a great deal of money to be spent on these developments.
The hon. member for Laurier referred to the lakehead. We are just getting the contracts let there, the first contracts, and there is to be about $7.5 million spent.


Lionel Chevrier: There was great dissatisfaction there about two weeks ago when I was up.


Howard Charles Green: I really do not understand why there should be dissatisfaction because we are moving right ahead with this program, and it is going to be very expensive. I believe it will meet the needs of the lakehead cities.
He asked also about the work being done in the lower St. Lawrence, and I have here the figures for that. There has been about $5 million spent there in the last four years on the different developments, such as Baie Comeau, Pointe au Pere and so on. There will have to be more money spent there, and we shall try to keep abreast of the business developments.
The hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre referred largely to housing matters and I shall answer his questions later in the afternoon.
The hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador advocated small works in small places. I agree with him that there is more

satisfaction to everybody in works of this kind than in the big projects because they mean so much to the people who live in the small communities. The department has tried to keep this thought always in mind, and we will have a look at the proposal that there should be more winches and small landing wharves. Several of the Newfoundland members dealt with the policy of constructing community stages which is shared by the Department of Fisheries and the Department of Public Works. I am very glad that this policy has proven to be successful. We have our work cut out for the current year, but we shall certainly have a look at the possibility of extending that plan.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the minister would permit me to ask one question at this time? Does the minister think it would be possible to line up these projects early enough to permit the timber to be cut in the fall and construction started early in the spring? This would make a great deal of difference to the whole economy of Newfoundland.


Howard Charles Green: It is the intention to do that from now on. We ran into difficulty last winter when it was not possible to do the work because of the winter weather.
Then the hon. member also mentioned trouble between the Canadian National Railways and the Department of Public Works in connection with harbour improvements at Woodstock, Newfoundland. Our version of this trouble is that the Canadian National deserves all the blame.


Lionel Chevrier: Where is the Minister of
Transport?


Howard Charles Green: The Minister of Transport just left the house. Perhaps the hon. member could ask him about that particular project.
The hon. member for St. Boniface dealt with the need for building houses with bomb shelters. This is a new idea which we could have Central Mortgage and Housing investigate. One never knows what will have to be done in these days, and it may be that some policy along this line will have to be adopted.
The hon. member for Gloucester asked about three different projects, and I have reports here on all of them. In so far as the wharf at Maisonnette is concerned, the department has been considering various methods of improving harbour facilities for the fishermen at Maisonnette for some time now. However, its location has made our problem quite difficult in that the obvious manner of improving conditions would include dredging where the bottom is composed of rock. If 66968-9-279J
Supply-Public Works we could only find a harbour bottom composed of mud, it would be much simpler to get this work done.
Maisonnette is situated on the south shore of bay Chaleur between the two harbours of Blue Cove and Caraquet where good facilities are presently maintained. The department carried out improvements at Blue Cove last year and received tenders on June 3 for a large reconstruction project at Caraquet.
The existing facilities at Maisonnette constitute a high water landing only. Even a 200-foot extension to the outer end of the existing wharf would only provide 21 feet of water and this would be of little value. Any dredging along such an extension would be costly and involve considerable rock blasting, possibly endangering the structure. The minimum work which could be considered of real benefit would include dredging a 50-foot wide channel and a basin adjacent to the wharf. The estimated cost of this would be about $160,000 and in rough weather it would not afford very good protection for boats. The capital outlay required to provide improvements appears large when compared to the benefits to be derived. Nevertheless, I understand there has been a growth in the fishery in this area and the department is continuing its investigations as to the best method of improving the facilities. The federal Department of Fisheries is going to undertake a review of the economic conditions and future prospects. When the results of their study are known, we will be in a better position to assess the merit of the proposal for improved facilities at Maisonnette.
The problem at Maisonnette is not simple and does involve large capital outlays. I might refer to recent attempts by local fishermen to improve their lot. These fishermen got together and hired a bulldozer in order to cut a channel through the sandbar located close to the existing wharf so they could have more protection for their boats. However, I understand the sand movement caused the cut to fill in as quickly as it was bulldozed. These fishermen are to be highly commended for their initiative and efforts in this regard, and it is regrettable that these efforts were not more successful.
In so far as Tracadie is concerned, I may say a preliminary study of this project has been made. The results indicate that a much more comprehensive investigation will be required before the department will have sufficient information on which to base a decision. The assistance of the national research council has been sought and they have visited the location to determine what additional data is necessary for their work.

Supply-Public Works Either a mathematical analysis of conditions at the entrance to this harbour or a model study will be required. It may be necessary to request the Canadian hydrographic services people to carry out a complete sounding survey of the area.
The department maintains a wharf at Tracadie village, and I believe the fish landings at this structure have been maintained at a good level over recent years. Our problem at Tracadie concerns the entrance to this harbour, which is actually known as Tracadie gully and is only a channel running through two sand beaches. Years ago a considerable expenditure was made to protect this channel but, of late, indications are that nature is having its own way and the channel is being maintained without our help.
We are examining the need for: (a) removing the north breakwater; (b) constructing a causeway between the beach and Pointe Bouleau; and (c) the need for developing a deep draft harbour. The investigation to date indicates the cost of removing the ruins would not be commensurate with the benefits to be derived, and until the results of all studies are available no decision can be made on the other portions of the proposed work.
Then, the hon. member mentioned the building at Shippegan, New Brunswick. The department is considering a building for 1960-61. This would house the post office, fisheries and the unemployment commission and would require about 2,000 square feet of usable space. The item has not been placed as yet before our accommodation committee in the department nor is it in the planning vote. No site has been obtained. He also referred to the causeway to Prince Edward Island and asked about the report.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I think it was the hon.
member for Northumberland-Miramichi.


Howard Charles Green: I gave a report when I opened the estimates on May 21. I was somewhat startled to see this big heading in the Guardian of Charlottetown of May 26: "Green Causeway Report Big Bluff" says premier. I think the premier of that province has been a little bit rough with us in connection with this proposal. Quite large sums of money have been expended on getting a report from consultants. As I pointed out two weeks ago, the report has been in the hands of our departmental officials for a matter of only two or three weeks.
The consolidation of the consultants' report, along with the reports on costs of remedial works, land damage and detailed report on the geographical survey, shore line, ice conditions and detailed tidal survey with prediction of the changes in tidal conditions


resulting from construction of a causeway is now virtually complete within this department. These reports will be forwarded to the other government departments concerned for their review within the next week. It will take a little while to have the reports studied by the various departments but there is actually no delay in connection with this project	and there	is no intention	of
having any delay.
The hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomp-tion-Montcalm I think urged a change in policy with regard to protection walls. The department builds these walls where the erosion is caused by navigation or where walls	have	been built	previously by	the
federal government. We have done our best to do this work on a fair basis. Hon. members will know better than I can tell whether or not we have been successful in that effort.
The hon. member for Humber-St. George's in his very thoughtful remarks stressed early construction, as did the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. He also dealt with	the possibility of	United States	airbases	being	closed, with	the result that	the
fishermen would go back to their former occupation and would require these facilities. We are sympathetic to the needs of the fishermen in Newfoundland. It has an extremely long shoreline with a scattered population, with people living in very small centres. Every effort will be made to meet their requirements. I was glad to hear the kind words that have been expressed about the officials of the department in Newfoundland.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are not quite enough of them.


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member for Ile-de-la-Madeleine gave us an interesting picture of the situation in that part of Canada which is cut off from the mainland and from what I understood has a very sturdy type of citizen. We had a survey made there by our interdepartmental team. The report they brought back was not only a good one but it was good reading. It was extremely interesting, particularly to one coming from the west coast where the conditions are completely different.
There are certain works on the Magdalen islands which are to be studied in conjunction with the national research council. They consist of Oyster pond, Portage du Cap and Etang des Caps.
As to Oyster pond, an amount of $500 was authorized on May 13 of this year for current survey work to be done by district officials. This is to obtain preparatory information for the further study by national research

council. The problem at this place is to effect an entrance into Oyster pond. The national research council are to study the effects of the littoral drift problem in order to determine what different possible entrances may be affected. If, in the preliminary investigation, it is indicated that construction would be warranted and a model study is indicated, this will be undertaken by the national research council.
With regard to Portage du Cap and Etang des Caps, the problem here is to arrange some means of getting the fishing craft from their hauled out position on the shore into the water. Again, this is a matter of studying the littoral drift to determine if any effective means of launching and withdrawing the boats from the water can be built, other than what would be required to build a structure extending out into deep water. Such a structure would be very long and would be of excessive cost. It is in an effort to build something within practical economic limits that the assistance of the national research council has been requested.
In addition to the above works, studies have been undertaken by district officials at Havre Aubert for the development of a protected harbour. An amount of $2,000 was authorized on May 4 of this year for this study which includes soundings and borings.
Finally, the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate was very kind this afternoon. He did not go into details of any extent. He asked for a shipway at Bonavista.


John Whitney Pickersgill: A slipway.


Howard Charles Green: A shipway.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the minister would like to build a shipway that would be all right.


Howard Charles Green: A slipway. Under miscellaneous works there is an item for this year of $14,950.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is good.


Howard Charles Green: As to Newman's Cove, an item for wharf extension was considered for the 1959-60 estimates but was not approved. It is still in our planning program for 1960-61. No building is being considered or requested there apparently.


John Whitney Pickersgill: No building is what?


Howard Charles Green: No building is being considered or requested at that particular community.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I did not suggest there was. It was an extension to the wharf there in which I was interested. I hope that any difficulties there have been may be overcome in the case of that particular wharf and that the minister will give a big recommendation to his successor.
Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: One of the hon. members referred to Glenwood. There a small 600-foot building would hold both the post office and the Canadian National Telegraphs.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the minister if that is Britannia or Glenwood?


Howard Charles Green: Glenwood.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Then that is the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador.


Howard Charles Green: This is under consideration for winter works but I cannot give any definite assurance as yet. Mr. Chairman, I think that covers most of the questions raised by the hon. members, and I would be glad to deal with any other items when we are considering them.


Lionel Chevrier: I wonder if the minister and the house would allow me one word before this item passes, because I am sure the house has given careful consideration to the administrative item concerning the minister's department. What prompts me to rise again are two matters. First, I think it was very fitting of the minister a moment ago to pay tribute to his officers upon his departure from his department. I think it is a nice gesture on the part of the minister who is about to sever connections with his department to refer to the close association which he has had with trusted officers in the department. I would like to add, if I may, a word to what the minister has said and to recall to the house the names of three of the officers who have been closely associated and connected with his department.
When I came to Ottawa, I am almost sorry to say 25 years ago-sorry because of the length of time-the then deputy minister of the Department of Public Works was James Hunter. He was, as the minister may recall, a very efficient and competent deputy minister. He held that office for many years. He was exceedingly sympathetic to representations made by members of parliament from all sides. He knew his department thoroughly. He took decisions with dispatch, and he was, I believe, all in all a very satisfactory and highly regarded public servant in the department. So much so was that the case that I believe that was one of the reasons why the building which now houses the Department of Public Works bears the name of the late James Hunter. I think I would have been remiss had I not risen to pay this tribute to him, not only because of my personal association with him over many, many years, but also because of the excellent reputation which is still associated with his name in the department.
After he left he was succeeded, I believe, by Mr. Emmett Murphy. As the house knows,

Supply-Public Works Mr. Emmett Murphy is now quite ill in a hospital in Ottawa. He is a graduate of Queen's University, an engineer of talent who had been associated with the work of the construction of the Welland canal and who, particularly during the war years, did a commendable job in the department of munitions and supply and 1 believe afterwards in the department of reconstruction. In his later years he became deputy minister of public works, and he did during the time that he was in office a very commendable job. The minister has referred to his own deputy minister, and I will not add to what he has already said.
The minister was also kind enough to pay a special tribute to his predecessor, the Hon. Mr. Winters, whose name has been mentioned on two or three occasions as being a minister of very high calibre, and we on this side of the house thank the minister for the reference which he made to the efficiency of his pre-iecessor, indeed a minister of great talent.
I would also like to refer to another minister with whom I sat in the house for many years and who, like the Minister of Public Works now, held the position of house leader for a long time. That was the Hon. Alphonse Fournier, the former member for Hull, who is now a member of the Exchequer Court of Canada. While I was not in the ministry when he was sworn in-I came in later-I know of the tremendous amount of work and painstaking care which he gave to the duties that were entrusted to him, and I felt that on this occasion the minister would not mind if at this stage I said a word about his devotion to duty.
Now may I just take another few minutes and I will resume my seat. I would like to tell the minister that I think on the whole he is adopting the right attitude in so far as port development and port facilities are concerned. But what I have great fear of is this. I do not think there is the over-all planning that there should be. It seems to me that when the planning is entrusted to two and three departments there is bound to be some confusion. In the first place, I think there should be-I do not want to repeat what I said earlier-an economic survey of the whole area from the lower St. Lawrence right up to the head of the lakes. I also think that the minister or his successor should entrust the house with the plans that the department has for the development of these ports. It is a nice thing to be able to say that $5 million is spent here, $8 million spent here, and $10 million spent there. That looks good, but having regard to the movement of the traffic, I do not think anybody quite knows just how the traffic is going to move. I realize it is not an easy job and

that is why it seems to me that there must be a planning of works in these ports in conjunction with an economic survey. Where is the traffic going to move? What kind of traffic will it be? The plan that the minister has should jibe with that which the Minister of Transport has or the national harbours board; otherwise there is bound to be confusion.
Let me remind the minister of what he used to tell me when I took up my estimates in the Department of Transport concerning the national harbours board and the port of Vancouver. I remember I used to come down with the estimates concerning Vancouver and cite large amounts. The minister was grateful for the amounts which went for port development and port facilities in the city of Vancouver, but repeatedly he would come back and say, "I want to know what the plans are for the future in the city of Vancouver", and he had every right to demand them. We on this side of the house will not insist unduly about that, but I wonder whether the minister would be good enough to bring this to the attention of the gentleman who will succeed him, because this is a matter which cannot be done over a period of months. It is a matter which must take time. All of us are interested in this problem, and I am sure no one is interested more than he and his officers. Everyone must realize that there has to be an over-all plan and that that plan must fit in with those of the various departments. I just give that in conclusion as another thought which I trust the minister will give attention to.


Howard Charles Green: I would like to join in the tribute that the hon. member has paid to the other Canadians who have taken such a great part in the work of the department. His proposal for a larger, broader kind of plan with regard to the whole seaway area will certainly be given consideration, and I will take care to draw it to the new minister's attention.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, there is one matter I would like to bring to the attention of the minister in his capacity as Minister of Public Works. However, before doing that, this is the first opportunity I have had from my seat in this house to say to the hon. gentleman that I would like to offer him my very sincere congratulations upon his having been selected by the Prime Minister to succeed the late Dr. Sidney Smith as Secretary of State for External Affairs. The hon. gentleman, the hon. member for Royal, the hon. member for Laurier, and I are the only members of the class which came here in 1935. Excuse me, I have omitted a future postmaster general the hon. member

for St. Denis. We five are the only ones of that class now in the house. On this account each of us feels he has a special relationship with the Minister of Public Works. I wish to tell him, sincerely, that I hope he will be happy in his new assignment. I know he will bring to it qualities of integrity and honourable approach. I sincerely trust he will be able to make a contribution to good relations between Canada and other countries in these difficult days.
I hope that as Minister of Public Works he will give me ready co-operation in a matter about which I now intend to say a few words. The minister spoke earlier in the day about the satisfaction he derived from smaller works in smaller places. It is about one of those works that I wish to say something. I have here a long petition which comes from a group of my constituents who live in the township of Rochester near the village of St. Joachim, Ontario, in the riding which I have the honour to represent in this house. The petition has to do with the river Ruscomb and its outlet at lake St. Clair. This is a matter which was looked into in the middle of February by the department at my request. The department caused a survey to be made, and the district engineer made a report on that occasion which I think on the whole gave strong support to the request made by my constituents.
The petition has to do with properties which are located on the Ruscomb river approaching the mouth of lake St. Clair, including Rochester beach, what is known as the Renaud subdivision, the Tellier subdivision and certain other areas along both sides of the river Ruscomb.
There has to be some deepening of this river and some work at the mouth touching lake St. Clair. This is not a matter which will involve much expenditure, but as an indication of the constructive way in which my constituents have approached this matter, may I say that they have put forward the idea that this might be a joint operation in which the province of Ontario could participate. They hope that the river Ruscomb outlet may be cleaned and deepened, thereby saving the banks and generally providing a satisfactory approach to historic lake St. Clair.
I would be very grateful if the minister could give this matter his consideration, and I hope this will be one of the hon. gentleman's final acts as Minister of Public Works. Other hon. members have suggested that he should recommend strongly to his successor that this or that action be taken. I would ask him, on the merits of this particular case, to make a favourable decision himself and
Supply-Public Works give my constituents the opportunity of remembering that as a result of the intervention of their member they received from the man who was minister of public works, now Canada's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the rectification of this situation in a way which I believe the situation warrants.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And it is an international water.


Howard Charles Green: I will certainly undertake to look into it.


Alexis Pierre Caron: A while ago the minister said that the bridge is a project to be undertaken by the three governments. But one question which I put to him was not answered. From 1955 to 1957 the minister of public works of that day took the initiative in order to try to bring all the governments together with regard to this matter. Would the minister not do the same and take the initiative in an effort to reconcile the views of the governments concerned? I do not know whether he would succeed. I know that the premier of Quebec might be just as difficult for our future Minister for External Affairs to deal with as Mr. Gromyko or Mr. Khrushchev. Now that he is in diplomacy, the hon. gentleman may succeed.


Howard Charles Green: I would point out that the efforts of my predecessor were completely unsuccessful, so perhaps a different kind of approach is necessary. I would not like to have the impression go out that the premier of Quebec is as difficult to deal with as the two others to whom the hon. member has just referred.


Maurice Bourget: 
Howard Charles Green: In the fiscal year provision is being made for an increase of 67 in the number of employees in the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
322.	New Brunswick, $490,000.
George Roy McWilliam: Does this vote include the crash program for all public buildings or does that come under another vote?


Howard Charles Green: No, that work is done under miscellaneous works.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
323.	Quebec. $5,931,000.
Maurice Bourget: Has any progress been made regarding the post office in Quebec city.


Howard Charles Green: Architects are at present working on the plans and we hope to call for

Supply-Public Works tenders in the month of November or thereabouts. There are still some difficulties to be ironed out between the city and the C.N.R. with regard to the site. As the hon. member knows there has been a great deal of trouble about getting a site.


Maurice Bourget: When I was in Quebec last week I saw the old station still standing on the site proposed for this new post office. I wonder if borings have yet been taken.


Howard Charles Green: Borings have not yet been completed. They are being done by the department.


Mr. Dumas:: Under this heading I wonder if the minister could give me some information. At page 425 I see there is an amount of $200,000 voted for improved accommodation for government services in Rouyn.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, the plans are about 80 per cent completed. We hope to call for tenders in about two months.
Mr Dumas: This is in addition to the post office building, I suppose?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Armand Dumas: Has the government purchased the land for this building?


Howard Charles Green: The site has been selected and surveyed and at the present time appraisals are being taken to determine the value.
Mr Dumas: So the land has not been acquired yet?


Howard Charles Green: No.


Mr. Denis:: I am not jealous about the other provinces but I see that most of the provinces have a slight decrease under this item whereas the province of Quebec receives $6 million less than last year. I wonder if the minister could explain why this decrease is so large compared with that for Ontario? Ontario receives almost the same amount as last year. Is it because we do not need any more public buildings in the province of Quebec? There must be a reason that does not appear in the estimates.


Howard Charles Green: The reason is because of the completion of some very large buildings in the hon member's own city. If he will turn to the harbours and rivers vote he will find that the vote for Ontario is being decreased by nearly $6 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
324.	Ottawa. $16,505,000.
Maurice Bourget: I wonder if the minister could say something about the repairs made to the

Jackson building? This may come under another item but I wonder if we could discuss it now.


Howard Charles Green: On Saturday, October 25, 1958, at about 8.20 a.m., an explosion occurred in premises located at 246-48 Slater Street. It is alleged to have resulted from the ignition of natural gas which had escaped into that building. The crown-owned Jackson building, situated directly across the street from the explosion, suffered great damage. The structural frame was unharmed but practically all windows and doors, practically all interior partitions and the majority of the lighting fixtures and building fittings received maximum damage. The contents were also severely blown about. Fortunately, there was no loss of life or severe injury in the building. If the blast had not occurred on a Saturday morning there might have been hundreds of people killed or seriously injured.
The damage was such that the building was uninhabitable. The three departments who occupied the building were housed elsewhere; the income tax branch in the trade and commerce building, the headquarters of the Department of National Health and Welfare in the Copeland building and the civil service commission in No. 1 temporary building. To bring the building back into use as quickly as possible, the remedial work was divided into four phases to allow planning for the occupants to go forward while repairs to the fabric to the building were being effected.
Phases 1 and 2 have been completed. In these contracts the exterior and interior fabric of the building was renewed and space on the lower three floors was prepared for the income tax branch. They occupied the building during the last week of March.
Phases 3 and 4 will complete the renovation of the building and the building services, and the preparation of the upper floors for the use of the civil service commission and the Department of National Health and Welfare. These latter two departments are scheduled to reoccupy the building in October.
An information has been filed in the Exchequer Court of Canada, naming as defendants the Consumers' Gas Company, who distribute natural gas in Ottawa; Addresso-graph-Multigraph of Canada, Limited, who were tenants in the building where the explosion occurred; and the Lumor Interests Limited, who were owners of the same building. We are claiming from them damages in the amount of $1,220,820, as well as the costs of the action and such further and other relief as the court may deem meet.

I might say that the property and building management branch of the department did a wonderful job at the time of the accident. They did a splendid job in quickly housing these different governmental branches. The explosion occurred on Saturday and provision for temporary accommodation was made for Monday morning. It was an outstanding piece of work.


Maurice Bourget: What is the total cost of the repairs?


Howard Charles Green: It is estimated that the cost of the repairs will be about $860,000 to which must be added the cost of damage to furniture and equipment.


Maurice Bourget: Were the contracts awarded after negotiations with two or three contractors or were tenders called for the work at each phase?


Howard Charles Green: Quotations were obtained from five firms for the emergency repair work which had to be done at once. The other and far more expensive part of the reconstruction has been done following tendering.


Maurice Bourget: May we have the names of the five firms with which negotiations were made?


Howard Charles Green: I will have to send for that information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
329. British Columbia, $1,950,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to bring to the minister's attention something brought to my attention last summer. I made a point of visiting both buildings. I refer to the unsatisfactory state of ventilation in the Trail and Nelson new public buildings which are both very excellent. I understand this is about the only deficiency concerning which complaints have been received. The postal officials in the Nelson building took me down to where they sort the mail and for two hours I watched them sort it. I was amazed at the amount of lint that comes from the bags, gets into the air and is not carried away. I thought it was a most unsatisfactory state of affairs and a poor environment for postal employees to work in. I would ask the minister to have that situation investigated. I think they have a just complaint about those lint particles floating in the air. They complain of coughing, throat troubles and things of that sort.
In addition, I should like to ask the minister whether consideration has been given to installing air conditioning in those buildings? There have been particularly strong demands from persons who have to occupy the building at Trail. As the minister knows, this is a particularly hot place in the summer
Supply-Public Works because of the lack of surrounding tree cover, and so on. In this respect it differs from other parts of the district.
I have one other question. I know that the estimate does not come within the minister's jurisdiction but his department undertakes the construction of headquarters for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police when it is required to do so. I notice that with respect to the Crescent Valley headquarters no expenditure of money was made in 1958-59 but there is an estimated expenditure of $35,000 for 1959-60. Can the minister explain to the committee just how that program is being undertaken?


Howard Charles Green: The difficulty in the post offices at Nelson and Trail may be caused by faulty ventilation, or it may be a question of the post office equipment. Apparently the Post Office Department is responsible for normal cleaning equipment. However, the officials will look into the situation in both these buildings. Was the hon. member for Kootenay West referring to Pleasant valley?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Crescent valley. The public address system is most unsatisfactory. The Hansard reporters cannot hear us at times. I was referring to Crescent valley, just below the main headquarters of the Sons of Freedom.


Howard Charles Green: This particular headquarters is included in the R.C.M.P. buildings for this year, but apparently no work has been started on it as yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
331. Improvements generally-
Not more than $25,000 to be expended on any one project without the approval of treasury board, $700,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to say that I think the minister did not entirely understand my reference to small buildings for post offices. I said I was not going to mention any names because they were in the minister's files. He suggested he did not have any names. If he has any doubt about whether he has them in his files I would be glad to repeat the information, although I will not take the time of the committee to do it here. There are several places.


Howard Charles Green: They must be in the files. I did not understand the hon. member's question.
I have further information with regard to the R.C.M.P. headquarters at Crescent Valley. Tenders will be called within the next two weeks for that building.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Thank you very much.


Maurice Bourget: Will the minister give us a breakdown for Ottawa of what has been spent

Supply-Public Works out of that $400,000 and a breakdown by provinces? I do not want it for everything, just a breakdown by provinces.


Howard Charles Green: The expenditures under this vote last year are as follows: Halifax, $9,833.95; Prince Edward Island, $900; Saint John-this will be for the province of New Brunswick; Halifax will be for Nova Scotia- $25,040.10; Quebec, $3,504.30; Montreal, $10,009; Ottawa, $136,783.30; Ontario, $10,953; Winnipeg, $19,706.43; Saskatchewan, $14,621.98; Alberta, $28,597.79; Vancouver, $35,675.10; total, $295,634.95.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, just before you leave your seat, I think there was a general understanding that the committee would be prepared to resume, but I presume you have to leave the chair.


Charles Edward Rea: It being five o'clock, it is my duty, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15, to report certain resolutions and request leave to sit later this day or at the next sitting of the house, as the case may be.
Progress reported.


John Whitney Pickersgill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether you might ask the house for unanimous consent to go right back into committee in order to save as much time as possible to help the minister get through his estimates.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):: It is my
understanding that there is unanimous consent to suspend the hour for private and public bills.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS Harbours and rivers-
Engineering services-
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-
335. Newfoundland, $4,128,200.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Vote 335, of course, as the minister realizes is the most important vote in the whole of the estimates for his department. I am not going to make belatedly the speech I might have made earlier, but I do
[Mr. Bourget.l
want to ask the minister two questions because I am sure there is a great deal of interest in these two subjects. The first is, is the minister now fully satisfied that the harbour at Port aux Basques is entirely satisfactory? The second question is, can the minister tell us, very briefly, what progress is being made in harbour development at St. John's?


James Aloysius McGrath: I omitted to mention on the general item, Mr. Chairman, the fact that it has been decided to locate community stages in the easterly part of St. John's harbour known as the battery. This decision was reached because of the importance of this area as a fishing centre. It is not generally realized that there are over 200 fishermen actively engaged in fishing out of St. John's, and who contribute a great deal to the economy of the city of St. John's. The majority of these fishermen are located in that part of the harbour known as the battery.
My point is that they have no facilities there, and there have not been any facilities for fishermen at that location down through the years. In view of this fact the Department of Fisheries, and the Department of Public Works, in their wisdom, decided to locate community stages there. This part of St. John's harbour is not part of the city of St. John's and is not serviced by the municipality. I wonder, therefore, if the minister and his officials would give consideration to conducting a survey to ascertain what facilities might be provided in addition to the community stages to facilitate the fishery in this important part of St. John's. I am thinking of such facilities as a fisherman's wharf, some sort of breakwater to protect the boats and the gear of the fishermen.
The other point I should like to make now, Mr. Chairman, is that in view of the work that is currently being undertaken at Bell island with respect to the extension of the wharf and the erection and construction of a new warehouse, and bearing in mind the fact that a new ferryboat is now under construction to service Bell island, would the minister and his officials take into consideration for next year's estimates the provision of a breakwater at Bell island which would provide a basin for shipping and provide artificial harbour facilities? It would provide also a very much needed breakwater to project the ferry landings at Bell island.


Howard Charles Green: With regard to the harbour at Port aux Basques, it would be a very bold or foolish minister of public works who would say that everything is as it should be in that harbour. The dredging is not yet quite

completed, and it will require a year or two in order to be sure that the harbour is now in good shape.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Are the breakwaters
finished?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, the breakwaters are finished. In so far as harbour development at St. John's is concerned, I gave quite a full statement on that on May 21 and it can be found at page 3914 of Hansard. There is nothing to be added.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was out of the house at the time, and I apologize to the minister.


Howard Charles Green: There is nothing I can add to the statement, except to say that the three contracts have been awarded and the work is actually in progress on two of them. The third tender has only been awarded within the last few days and it will be about a month before the work actually commences.
My officials tell me that the department will be able to make those surveys which the hon. member for St. John's East has requested, and we will look into his suggestions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
336. Nova Scotia, $5,150,500.
Mr. MacEwan:: I have just a few remarks to make on this item. The matter which I have to discuss is one which is already within the	notice of	the	minister,	but I
thought at this time there might be a few facts which I should place before him.
The county of Pictou, the riding which I represent, has been very well treated by the minister since I have been a member. This year we have various types of projects going ahead in areas like Cape John, Pictou, Skinner's Cove,	Caribou	and	Bailey's	Brook.The matter	I should	like	to bring	to theattention of the minister is one that was mentioned some time ago, that is the matter of a breakwater at Little Harbour. There are many little harbours throughout Nova Scotia, but	there is	one	in which	I am
particularly interested. I have been informed by the minister's department that borings will be taken later this summer in the area to ascertain the type of situation there in order to make a fair estimate of what a breakwater would cost.
My personal knowledge of this area indicates that this is the only place along the Northumberland strait which is not provided with the necessary facilities for fishing. I visited there in May of 1958 and at that time added to my personal knowledge of the area. What is particularly important is that the fishermen use the only harbour, known as Black point, and in order to enter the harbour
Supply-Public Works
they have to pass over a shallow stretch of water. Perhaps like the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate I could make an agreement with the minister that if a breakwater is not possible in this area, probably dredging would be the alternative. This is something which will have to be carried out in a few years. A breakwater might be the most reasonable in this location.
The area which has been suggested by the fishermen for this construction, and in which the department is carrying out test borings, is known as Roaring Bull point. I would bring that to the attention of the hon. member for St. John's East to indicate that there are picturesque names throughout the east other than in Newfoundland. From my personal knowledge, as I have said, I would say it is necessary to construct a breakwater in this area in order to give the fishermen a place to keep their traps and help out generally with the fishing in that area.
The fishermen there are of the best type. If the Minister of Public Works will take cognizance of the statistics recorded by the Department of Fisheries he will find there are approximately 12 boats in that area. The lobster catch especially is as high as in many areas in which there are larger numbers of boats and in which a great deal of money has been spent on the construction of breakwaters and other things.
In addition, I have made representations about Pictou Landing where repairs are necessary to the wharf. The P.E.I. Produce Company, which is a pulp company, has been taking ships in there for a few years. It is expected that they will have a good year this year, and I am told repairs are necessary for that. This company is also looking into the matter of building a fair sized sawmill in the area for their overseas trade. This makes the repairs to the wharf even more necessary.
I do not expect the minister will reply about the Little Harbour area. We will wait and get the results of the borings, then we will have the technical information necessary. I just put that forward as being the only area in which I have requested anything new in this constituency. I hope consideration will be given to it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
338. New Brunswick, $4,388,000.
George Roy McWilliam: Under this item under harbours and rivers and engineering services, the total amount for the province is $4,388,000. When I spoke on the general item in this regard the minister referred me to the large amount of money that was spent at Newcastle for a federal public building. I wish

Supply-Public Works to point out to him that while we appreciate that, nevertheless it is of no benefit to the fishing industry. In the details at page 442 we find three items in this group. One is Escuminac, breakwater repairs, $59,000; another is Lower Newcastle, wharf repairs, $26,500; and the third is Newcastle, wharf repairs, $70,000. Of these three items, there is only one, namely Escuminac breakwater, which will be of any benefit to the fishermen on the Miramichi.
I just urge the minister again to take another look at the matter and to recommend to the minister who will take over his portfolio and to urge upon him that he make a survey of the fishing facilities required on the Miramichi in order really to improve the Miramichi fishing industry. I would suggest that he act in co-operation with the Minister of Fisheries. There is a need, I would say, in many cases not for large works but for small landings or small dredging operations which would assist the industry and also assist the fishermen.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
339. Quebec, $5,757,900.
Mr. Leduc:: For many years the Maniwaki council and board of trade have asked for a wharf to be erected or built on Riviere Desert, Maniwaki, Quebec. Lately the chairman of the board of trade of Maniwaki announced at a meeting that the public works department would this year build this wharf. Can I get from the minister whether this is really the truth?


Howard Charles Green: The officials are not aware of any vote for that project. Would there be any other name under which it would come?


Rodolphe Leduc: No; Riviere Desert.


Howard Charles Green: At Maniwaki?


Rodolphe Leduc: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: An amount of $5,000 is provided in the miscellaneous works vote for a wharf at Maniwaki.


Maurice Bourget: There is an item here for $135,000 for wharf improvements at Riviere du Loup. Can the minister tell us what will be the total cost of wharf improvements at Riviere du Loup and what kind of design will be used to improve the wharf? May I ask the minister whether sheet piling has been used there-that is what I wanted to know-or whether some other design has been used.


Howard Charles Green: No, sheet piling is not being used on that wharf. The total expenditure is to be $285,000 for the whole project. Some of that amount was spent in the last fiscal year.


Maurice Bourget: I will probably be asking the chief engineer next week what kind of design will be used.


Mr. Johnson:: Mr. Chairman, for the last two hours I have not heard anyone congratulating the Minister of Public Works on his appointment to the external affairs portfolio. Therefore I hope no one will mind if I take just a few seconds in which to extend my congratulations to the minister. After throwing bouquets at the minister, I may have a few criticisms to bring before the committee in relation to some matters which may be of no importance to many constituencies but which are of great importance to my constituency of Chambly-Rouville.
First I want to thank the minister for the attention with which he has favoured my constituency. I thank him for the laige amount provided for the constituency of Chambly-Rouville on the Richelieu river for retaining walls. The minister did not have the reputation of handing out too much money on this item but, whether I am lucky or not, I think Chambly-Rouville will get its fair share this year.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I want to emphasize the case of the city of Beloeil, one of the finest municipalities in the province of Quebec, where retaining walls had already been erected in various places in front of this or that owner's lot or in front of another property located a little further. They used to build retaining walls to please certain people who reciprocated the same favour to the member around election time.
Since the Conservative government was elected, this policy was somewhat abandoned. The intention was to be fair towards everybody, although in other ridings they are in the same situation. This government is being charged with favouring supporters of the Liberal party while failing to do the same thing for supporters of the Conservative party.
I should like to put this on the record of the house so that it be known that we favour that policy because it is fair to everyone. The completion of the retaining walls, partially built by the Liberals, is an illustration of what the Conservative party is now doing to repair the mistakes made by the previous government and to fulfil the promises made by the members, particularly those who represented the constituency of Chambly-Rouville.
A moment ago, I heard an hon. member attempting to claim for himself the credit which is due to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Green) for carrying out a program in.

his constituency. He said that the work had been carried out at the time of the Liberal party. Perhaps the program had been started by the Liberal party, but it was carried to completion under the Conservative regime. I am surprised to hear people say we are piling deficits upon deficits, but if we are doing so, it is to finish the work begun by the Liberals.
Mr. Chairman, let us now say a word about the retaining wall in Beloeil; it was an old dream of the former secretary of state, Mr. Roch Pinard. I imagine that the former Liberal member of the legislative assembly, the present mayor of Beloeil, will soon write a letter to the minister somewhat similar to the one which the minister read into the record earlier this afternoon.
The Conservative party, once again, will fulfil a promise of the Liberal party. I understand the wish of some officials that certain promises be fulfilled; well, I would ask their co-operation to fulfil another promise of the Liberal party.
In Chambly, at the mouth of Chambly canal, there is some erosion caused by navigation.
I am not the only one to believe that, on the basis of reports from the department or from certain officials of the department, stating that very little erosion was being caused by navigation, the department refuses to build a retaining wall. I do not agree with them and I ask the minister to give instructions to his department to make a further study of the matter. It might be convenient to make it a practice of consulting the member who, when something is not done right, receives the representations and the criticisms of all the voters, but seldom receives congratulations from his opponents. When there is something wrong, the practice should be to consult the people's representative and to ask his opinion, particularly about retaining walls and especially when it is a matter of building such walls.
I do not know who has been consulted about that retaining wall, but I do know that the matter should be studied. I know that a letter will be sent to the minister by the city council of Chambly, since the erosion is due in part, at least, to navigation, a situation which seems inevitable at the mouth of the Chambly canal. I wonder if it is recognized in the department that erosion is partly due to navigation. I wonder if it would not be necessary to build there, either this year or next, the retaining wall already begun in 1932 by the Conservative party, over a length of about 1,000 feet, continued by the Liberal party over a length of about 100 feet, and which should be continued by this government over the rest of the required length.
Supply-Public Works


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that the previous speaker should have felt called upon to play politics with the matter of retaining walls.
The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Green) has no doubt noticed that, since we took up his departmental estimates, certain of the items carried quite rapidly, out of our feelings of friendly co-operation. I also think that, in view of the appreciation we have expressed to the minister, the hon. member might have refrained from indulging in petty politics, considering that he sits on the government side. Of course, I realize why he does so. He was brought up in that kind of atmosphere, and I deeply regret the fact that he made his remarks at a time when we were bidding farewell to the minister as the minister responsible for public works.
I will say this to the hon. member. If there were promises made in the past-and I have some knowledge of the matter, having served as parliamentary assistant to the former minister of public works under the former Liberal administration-it was because the appropriations voted for the current year had been exhausted, and that in such circumstances, as is probably still being done by the present minister, the members were told: Well, next year, some job will probably be undertaken in your constituency. There has been absolutely no change from the previous situation. The policy followed by the present Minister of Public Works is the same as the policy followed by the former administration.
I can see no excuse for the hon. member raising this point of petty politics on this item. I shall refrain from any further comment, because I promised the minister that we might perhaps complete our study of his estimates today. I do hope, however, that other members will not rise to discuss politics when we are talking business. (Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
341. Manitoba and Saskatchewan, $272,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, on item 341 I wonder if the minister could tell me what the wharf at Steep Rock, Manitoba, is used for? I have not been there since 1914 and I am rather curious.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, Steep Rock is a community of about 300 people located on the east shore of lake Manitoba, 140 miles by
4400	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works road and rail from Winnipeg. The village is the site of a lime rock quarry operated by the Canada Cement Company. One million tons of lime rock are crushed and shipped to the Canada Cement Company at Fort Whyte, outside Winnipeg, each year. Cattle, local farm produce and in the wintertime fish, are also shipped from Steep Rock.
The existing wharf is a rockfllled, timber crib work structure 85 feet by 14 feet, with a rock and gravel approach 30 feet long. The seaward side of the wharf is protected by rock riprap. The wharf originally 63 feet by 14 feet was constructed in 1927-28 for the sum of $2,605, and extended to its present length in 1939-40 at a cost of $1,437.51.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I was wondering what the wharf was used for. I know these things are produced there but they are all shipped by rail.


Mr. Simpson:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words with regard to this item which relates to harbour improvements at The Pas, Manitoba. Before asking the minister a question I would like to say to him that the people of that area were very appreciative of the speed with which the officials of his department acted last summer when this work was intended to be done. At that time it was felt by the people of that area that a more desirable site could be found in the near vicinity to where these harbour improvements were going to take place, and just previous to the work being started they requested that a new site be investigated. I understand the new site has been selected, and the question I would like to ask the minister is if it is felt by his department that this $70,000 in the estimates for this work will be sufficient to complete this development as planned last year? I understand that the plans last year called for a slightly higher amount of money, and I am wondering if this $70,000 is felt to be enough to complete the harbour improvements at The Pas?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The project was estimated at $70,000. I have now a better explanation for the wharf at Steep Rock.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure it is a very good thing. It is a wonderful place.


Howard Charles Green: I laid a good foundation, but here is the whole story. This amount of $16,000 is required for the construction of an extension to the wharf to provide additional berthing and landing facilities. The existing structure is not long enough to accommodate the barges and other craft using it, since only the inner side, with 85


feet of berthing space, can be used. There are no other public wharves on lake Manitoba.
The wharf is used by cattle ranchers on Peonan point, four miles west of Steep Rock, who transport cattle and supplies by barge to and from Steep Rock, the nearest road and rail link. Their only alternative is to go by road around the north end of lake Manitoba to St. Martin on the C.N.R. This is a journey of 35 to 40 miles and the road becomes impassable in wet weather. For these reasons, the route is no longer used. The ranchers on Peonan point are the only ranchers who transport their cattle by barge to a shipping point. Other ranchers on both sides of lake Manitoba are close to a highway or railway, so that there is no advantage in crossing the lake.
The wharf is also used by small private and tourist boats and a few aircraft. Fishermen ship supplies over the wharf in the late fall of the year. Total craft using the wharf are two barges, three boats-over 30 feet-with inboard engines and 50 smaller outboard powered boats. The value of produce, supplies and equipment shipped over the wharf each year is estimated as follows: cattle, $80,000; fuel and gas, $4,000; machinery, $20,000; food, etc. $4,000; fishing equipment, $12,000. The two cattle barges are 54 feet and 60 feet long, respectively. An average of two trips per week are made by the barges between June and freeze-up. Approximately 1,800 head of cattle are at present on Peonan point and this number is expected to increase.
Does that satisfy the hon. member's curiosity?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, except that the minister's officials have made one mistake. There are two other public wharves on lake Manitoba, built by the department in co-operation with the government of Manitoba at the narrows for the purpose of the ferry there. I should like to have this on Hansard, because I expect to be asking the minister's successor in a year or two to build a couple of wharves to provide a ferry to Twillingate island and I do not want to be told that there are no precedents.


Mr. Hanbidge:: I note that this item deals with Manitoba and Saskatchewan. I should like to ask the minister how much money has been allotted in respect of harbours and wharves in Tramping lake and Muddy lake in the Kindersley riding.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the minister should ask for notice.


Robert Leith Hanbidge: Maybe it would be easier if I asked him how much was being spent in Saskatchewan.


John Whitney Pickersgill: About $100 million on the Saskatchewan dam.


Howard Charles Green: We are putting all our money on the Saskatchewan dam.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
343. British Columbia and Yukon, $4,224,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I must preface my brief remarks on this item by drawing to the minister's attention the expanding economy of the Kootenay district and its continuous growth and every evidence of very large expansion of the forest industry, in the future. We have at the present time the operations of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company which are also expanding, and we have a very large development of the forest industry.
During last year 300 million feet of lumber were sawn inside the Nelson forest district, a good indication of what is to come, and at the present time construction has started on the foundations of a $50 million pulp mill at Castlegar. So it is not a question of providing services or buildings in a declining economy or in a country where there will be ghost towns. The minister knows that well enough.
I want to bring to his attention the changing pattern in navigation on the lakes. As the minister knows, up to a few years ago we had sternwheel steamers on passenger service and large steam tugs working for the lumber companies, hauling railroad barges or barges carrying iron ore for mining companies. The sternwheel steamers have ceased to operate and the pattern of navigation now is a larger number of small diesel tugs-they are not required to be as large in order to be as powerful-plus a great increase in the use of the lakes by small pleasure craft. Last year about 100 small craft came up the Columbia river, some from as far as Portland at the mouth of the Columbia being portaged around the dams in the United States by low-boys. I was told by some of these visitors from the United States that the increase in this traffic this year will be quite considerable, with every expectation of a rapid increase as the years go by to tourist camp operators. To indicate what that means, there were 22 of these small craft from the United States which arrived on the Saturday preceding Labour Day at St. Leon and Hot Springs and before they left they left $1,200 in cash. That was only 22 out of 80 that came up the river from the United States on Labour Day. Some went to Revelstoke, others
Supply-Public Works came down the Kootenay river and were launched at various places on the Kootenay lake. The visits of these small craft are of great importance to the district and a great help to tourist resort operators who, as the minister knows, have to skim their cream in about four months of the year. I mention this to illustrate the stability of the economy and the changing pattern of navigation which, I think, was not fully understood by some of the minister's district officials a year or so ago.
It is a strange thing, but in the Kootenays we get overlooked on so many occasions. We had few visits from cabinet ministers of the Liberal government during the years it was in office. We have had a few more since the present government came to power by the Minister of Public Works but purely on account of the fact that his home town is in my constituency, and we are most fortunate in that respect. However, I think that with the lure of larger works on the coast district engineers are inclined to fail to realize to the fullest extent the importance of the federal Department of Public Works to our district.
I must say that the people in Boswell are delighted with the launching way that has been built there, and I am informed a considerable number of United States craft have already this year been launched there. The same applies to the people of Kaslo and the people of Burton who are very pleased that reconsideration was given to the demolition of the Burton wharf and to its reconstruction and improvement as a wharf and launching way.
I suggest to the minister that very serious consideration should be given before the demolition of any wharf is undertaken. I was sorry a few years ago that the Halcyon wharf was demolished. I was inspector of that wharf when it was built. The piling was sound; only a few planks needed replacing. The hotel Halcyon had burned down, so there was apparently no use for the wharf. However, that wharf was the only wharf between Arrowhead and Nakusp at which tugs could tie up in the event of a storm. A number of skippers have told me they wish the wharf was still there to tie up to.
I urge that consideration be given to the new needs for a wharf before there is any further demolition undertaken.
There is a great increase in the ownership of small water craft in the Rossland-Trail district. The residents of that district would like to see a launching way at a site below Trail the name of which I forget at this moment. It is a suitable site. If this work cannot be undertaken this year

Supply-Public Works
I urge consideration of its construction next year. There will be a large use for a launching way near Trail.
The chamber of commerce of the village of New Denver is anxious to have a launching way built there at an excellent site. The minister knows all about it. I hope it will be included in plans for next year with respect to the navigation welfare of Kootenay West.
I must say how pleased the people of the district are that the department decided to build a new wharf at Galena bay. There will soon be a great deal of traffic at that point. The traffic is increasing every year. Possibly the minister does not know that it is likely that the road between Nakusp and Galena bay to the very wharf in question will be completed this year. It is partially completed now. Three or four days ago my son-in-law informed me that another construction crew is expected to start working soon on the portion between St. Leon and Galena bay. It is fortunate that the department has decided to rebuild this wharf because it will be at the apex of two routes of traffic going north, one from the Kootenay lake the other from Nakusp. We were very pleased that the department decided to make provision for the construction of that important wharf in the estimates this year.
Now I have a few suggestions to make before I sit down. I suggest that everything be done to keep the permanent staff employed rather than bringing in other persons. The dredge has a crew of experienced men. A number of these men have worked on the Arrow lakes for many years. At certain times they are laid off and the dredge employed on day work for the department. I suggest that in the type of construction that has to be undertaken with launching ways and wharves on Arrow, Kootenay, Slocan, and other lakes day labour is cheaper than contract work. That was demonstrated when the Nakusp wharf was built. I was informed by the officials that they saved several thousand dollars with day labour. An outside contractor has to make allowance for bringing in equipment and other costs. These men are experienced and know what to do. When you employ these men you are employing men who have had experience with running pile drivers, building wharves and works of that type. I suggest that every effort be made to keep the permanent crew on the dredge employed for as great a part of the year as possible in this way.
I mentioned that every consideration should be given to the maintenance of the present wharves as long as they can be repaired at any reasonable cost.
[Mr. Herridge.l
I was in Trout lake recently. There is a small wharf at the north end. It is an isolated spot with only seven permanent residents. Didn't I enjoy, what shall I say, the evidence of the democratic spirit that exists there. I was told an oil man came in and bought the hotel and spent about $40,000 on it and put in a cocktail lounge. He told the old trappers and prospectors, one of whom was in our battalion, "I do not want you old birds around here. I intend to attract high class clients." They had a vote on the question and all voted against the cocktail lounge. He lost out by failing to give consideration to the old time pioneer residents of whom I am very fond.
I suggest that wharf be kept in repair, as it is used as a launching way in the summer. It is a good sound wharf. There is a necessity for a similar small structure at the south end of Trout lake near Argenta. Tourists drive up from the south and fish in Trout lake and then pull up their boats at the north end.
The members of the Nakusp launch club of which I am a member brought to my attention the fact that they were interested to note that a breakwater had been built at Okanagan Landing last year. They wanted me to put in a plug for them. I do not suggest that this could be done overnight but if there is any more money available for this purpose I urge the minister and the deputy minister to give consideration to this. Money would be well spent on such a breakwater.
I now mention the question of dredging and pay particular tribute to a man employed by the department who knows dredging. He has had experience in the Royal Navy and as captain of a dredge. He has worked on wharves and river improvements for many years. This gentleman is in charge of floating equipment in the office in Vancouver. If the minister or the deputy minister have any questions about floating equipment in the interior of British Columbia I suggest that they take the advice of this gentleman. He is a practical person with experience.
I now bring to the minister's attention a problem arising out of the great increase in the lumber industry in the Kootenays. Millions of additional feet are being sawn every year. Millions of feet of logs are being towed from the north arm of the Arrow lake down to the mills at Nakusp. At the present time there is a narrow channel dredged toward Arrowhead for various craft to approach the wharf. It is quite wide enough for that purpose but not wide enough for tugs towing logs. It is possible for a tug to come out towing one million feet at high water but from medium water on it is very difficult. The tug cannot proceed west far enough to turn the boom into the channel without touching bottom. In extremely low water the channel is not wide

enough to allow the logs to go through. One million feet of logs were tied up for several days on two occasions last year. The captain could not swing the boom in question. Sometimes if they cannot go far enough west to make the turn the wind will blow the boom to the shallows on the east side of the cut. I know there are about ten million feet of logs coming out of the north arm this year.
There is a new sawmill being build at Arrowhead and another at Nakusp. It is expected all the mills there will require fifty million feet of logs this year. I am not blaming the department for the situation because these developments are happening, as it were, overnight. I suggest that a survey be made of the situation with respect to the dredging of the mouth of the Columbia toward the present Arrowhead dock to see if the cut could not be widened to some extent, and possibly some of the easterly bar taken off so tugs towing booms would not have difficulty making the turn.
At the present time the channel is far too narrow. I have been asked by those interested in the lumber industry and particularly the men towing logs to bring this to the minister's attention. I am quite sure that if the minister's officials went into the district they could get a very good description of the difficulties that occur at the present time from the captains of the tugs and other craft.
This concludes my suggestions, Mr. Chairman. The minister knows that I never ask for anything that is not absolutely essential.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the minister replies to the hon. member, knowing his enthusiasm for the interior of British Columbia, I am hoping he is not going to start building wharves for seven people on the lakes of British Columbia when there are 700 in many places on the Atlantic coast who still need wharves.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I should like to explain that the wharf is built.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member referred to another place just like it.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Geographically.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What I rose to ask the
minister-I meant to ask him on the item with regard to Newfoundland-was that is it the department's firm intention to go ahead with all the works that are specified in this year's program?


Howard Charles Green: We are hoping to be able to do so, but we cannot be sure.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There is no present plan to cut out any of them? Can we be given that assurance?
Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: That is right.


Mr. Payne:: I will take but a brief moment. Before this item passes I feel it is rather essential that a word or two be said on the matter of the British Columbia west coast which has very aggravated problems.
I must in my first remarks thank the minister for his splendid construction of a breakwater at Gibsons, British Columbia, thereby showing the good wisdom he has displayed in constructing this facility. I may say it has been open for six weeks now and it is already overcrowded with west coast fishermen. I trust that in order to overcome the overcrowded situation the plans for the Powell river-Westview breakwater will proceed without delay.
The main matter which I wish to bring up at this time is the matter of policy. I think it should be brought to the attention of the committee. I am sure the minister is fully conversant with this matter and will discuss it with his successor. It has to do with the increasing need for protective facilities for the thousands of small boat owners and operators who are plying the British Columbia coastal waters in increasing numbers as the weeks go by. In the past summer it was estimated that on weekends on the lower mainland area of the coastal waters somewhere in the neighbourhood of 14,000 to 15,000 craft were at sea. At the present time no policy exists within the structure of the federal government or the provincial government to provide shelter. This means that in the event of a sudden blow some weekend there would be no safety shelter available and without such shelter we can, I am sure, look forward in the future in our west coast waters to one of the world's great maritime tragedies. What the answer is I am sure I do not know; but I would submit that this matter is deserving of immediate and early study. Possibly it should be approached from the point of view of assessing a proper licence fee to those who are operating this type of craft in order that this shelter may be provided. I want to bring this forward as a suggestion which might be passed on to the incoming minister of public works.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before we proceed any
further I would like to say on behalf of those on our side of the house that we would be prepared to sit for a while after six o'clock because we know the minister would like to devote his full attention to his new department.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Speaking for this group, I agree with the suggestion.

Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: I am grateful; I appreciate this kindness very much.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
345.	Remedial works where damages are caused by, or endanger, navigation or federal government structures; and the completion of protection works already under way, $800,000.
Maurice Bourget: Just one question; I wonder whether the minister could give us a breakdown of the projects that were undertaken last year and a list of those that are going to be undertaken this year. I do not want to delay the passage of the estimates. Therefore, if the minister would be kind enough to send me a list for last year and this year I shall be content. I know the deputy minister knows the kind of list I want.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
352. Towards an investigation to determine the feasibility of constructing a proposed causeway across Northumberland Strait, including the opening of a test quarry, $250,000.
Heath Nelson Macquarrie: Mr. Chairman, I would not want to lose the popularity of hon. members by making any lengthy remarks. The congratulations and felicitations that I would have liked to offer to the new Secretary of State for External Affairs I shall withhold for the time being because I do not want to delay the minister in putting through his estimates. I should like to congratulate him on the remarks that he has made this afternoon with relation to the work he has done on the Prince Edward Island causeway. This is very encouraging. This is an old, old project in Prince Edward Island but not as old as the project mentioned by the hon. member for Kootenay West the other night. For many years the people of Prince Edward Island have hoped that the isolation and insularity that they have experienced in the winter time would be overcome. A connection between Prince Edward Island and the mainland was a big factor in bringing us into confederation when steps were promised to curtail the disadvantage that existed.
I want to tell the minister that we do not want to urge his officials to rush their report. We realize that this is one of the great engineering feats to be undertaken on the continent. We appreciate the fact that he has brought into the survey outstanding experts not only from his own department but from Europe. We are impressed with the amount of time and money that have gone into this problem. Not too long ago it seemed that this project was a little too staggering for the imagination. When the leader of the opposition in the Prince Edward Island legislature mentioned this project in 1940 a few members told him he was daft. Now considerable 

progress has been made and we look forward to the day when a great deal more optimism will emerge than has yet emerged.
Judging by the minister's statement, he has been given a good deal of advice. Before he says farewell to the Department of Public Works I should think he could do nothing more on a grand scale than to give the necessary push to this great project, a project that will mean not only so much to the province of Prince Edward Island but to the whole maritime region. I am happy that the hon. member for Northumberland-Mira-michi is present. So vast is this, and so great are the prospects for the whole Atlantic region I think it may be classed as one of the great national development projects that will have a profound effect on the whole country. I do thank the minister for what he has done. I hope that those who come after him will follow his example and perhaps push the matter considerably farther so that the day may come when the present minister will be driven across that link as the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and he will recall what he did in the earlier days.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before the item passes I should like to say that as a member of the government which intiated this study, I am very pleased with the hon. gentleman's remarks.


Orville H. Phillips: I do not wish to delay the estimates, but I would like to concur in the remarks made by the hon. member for Queens. There has been some criticism of the fact that the report has not been made public. I am sure all thinking people will realize that the officials require a great deal of time to study the report very thoroughly.
There are one or two proposals to which I should like to draw the attention of the minister. The first is a proposal submitted for the carrying of the rock by means of water transportation. I should like to see this proposal investigated as I believe it could save a considerable sum and cut down on the length of time required to construct the causeway.
The vote also includes an amount for the opening of a test boring. I wonder if the minister could tell us at this time the results of the opening of the test boring on the New Brunswick side?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the hon. member's question I would say it is too early to make any comment concerning that boring.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Trans-Canada Highway-
355.	Construction through national parks, $13,405,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the minister if he can tell me how much paving will be done in Terra Nova park this year?


Howard Charles Green: It is not expected there will be any paving done this year.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am a little disappointed to hear that. The minister does expect the grading will be all completed this year?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, the grading is to be completed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
356.	Contribution to the province of New Brunswick towards construction of dam on Tantramar river, New Brunswick, $84,375.
George Roy McWilliam: This appears to be a new work because I do not see that there was anything voted for it last year. Is it something to finish up a dam that was started some time ago, and not completed? If it would save time, perhaps the minister could let me know by letter tomorrow.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, the explanation is quite lengthy, but I should be glad to let the hon. member have a copy.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps the committee
would agree to have the explanation put on Hansard because a lot of people in New Brunswick would be interested in reading the minister's reply.


Charles Edward Rea: Will the committee give unanimous consent to allow the minister to place the answer on Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(Editor's note: The answer above referred to is as follows:)



PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
Development Engineering Services, Highways Division, Contribution Towards Construction of Dam over Tantramar River, N.B.-$84,375 (New Item)
This amount is required to cover a contribution by the Department of Public Works to the province of New Brunswick, in respect of the construction of a dam over the Tantramar river, which will form a part of the trans-Canada highway. This work is being done by the maritime marshland rehabilitation administration under an agreement with the province of New Brunswick. This structure is to serve the dual purpose of a marshland protection work, as well as a section of the trans-Canada highway.
Supply-Public Works
Order in council P.C. 1957/684 dated 9 May, 1957, authorized the construction of the Tantramar river dam under the Maritime Marshland Rehabilitation Act, and granted to the Minister of Agriculture authority to execute with the province of New Brunswick an agreement for the construction of the dam, which was to include provision for a highway crossing. The basis of sharing in the cost was that the federal government (Department of Agriculture) would undertake 77.5% of the cost and the province of New Brunswick ihe remaining 22.5%. In addition, the arrangement was that half of the payments made by the province to the maritime marshland rehabilitation administration were to be paid by the federal Department of Public Works (Highways Division).
The above arrangement is altogether similar in principle to one which was made with the province of Nova Scotia in the fiscal year 1955-56, with respect to a contribution towards the construction of a dam at the Ingonish river. At that time the deputy attorney general, Department of Justice, advised that he was unable to find authority under the trans-Canada highway agreement for a contribution by Canada to the province and advised that if it was decided to proceed with the joint project that the best method would be to enter an appropriate item in the estimates. In view of the fact that the cost of the dam was increased in order to make provision for a roadway crossing for the trans-Canada highway, it was considered that the item should be included in the public works estimates.
The contract for the Tantramar dam has now been awarded to the Modern Construction Company at a cost of $528,010. In addition to this amount, it is estimated that other items will bring the total to $750,000. Under the above mentioned order in council, New Brunswick's share of this amount is 224% or $168,750. The share of the federal Department of Public Works is, therefore $84,375. This amount would be subject to downward revision if, when all accounts are in for the project, the total expenditure is less than $750,000.
Item agreed to.
359. Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for: a maximum of $15,000 may be expended in respect of any one work and, with the approval of treasury board, that maximum may be increased to $25,000, $2,400,000.
George Roy McWilliam: I judge that this vote for miscellaneous works includes this winter program for small federal buildings. In that regard, I should like to ask the minister concerning a building contemplated for Black-ville, New Brunswick. It was on the list he

Business of the House
put on Hansard, I think it was on May 21, when he spoke on the estimates. I should like to know if it is the intention to erect that building next winter. I understand there is a proviso in connection with some of these buildings in that the lease on the present quarters has to expire before construction will go ahead. I should like to know, with regard to the Blackville post office, if that will be erected during the coming winter?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, we plan to erect that building during the next winter, provided there is no difficulty such as a question of site.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before this vote carries, may I ask if this vote includes small wharves and other work in the harbours and rivers field?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, I am pleased then to note the very considerable increase. I hope the minister will suggest to his successor that a lot of it be spent in Newfoundland.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.

John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if the house leader would give us the best indications he could of the business for next week? Perhaps he could indicate it for the whole week.


Howard Charles Green: I gave the business last night, but there is one addition and that is third reading of the act to amend the federal-provincial tax-sharing agreements, which I overlooked last night. This would be called first thing on Tuesday. Otherwise, the list would be as I stated.
Once again, Mr. Speaker, I should like to express deep gratitude to the hon. members for the way in which they rushed through these estimates here today. I feel rather badly because there were some questions asked by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam about housing, and one or two other members asked questions. I shall try to give them answers privately.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not think I should like to leave the record just the way it is. I do not think we rushed the estimates through. We gave them pretty good consideration, and we tried to give the minister the kind of consideration, in view of the very heavy responsibilities he has now assumed, to which he was entitled.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: For once, I am in complete agreement with the hon. member for Bo-navista-Twillingate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It will not happen again.
It being ten minutes after six the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.



ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Roberge: 1.	In what fiscal year was the "camp ground and picnic area development" program initiated?
2.	What provinces have entered into an agreement with the federal government in each fiscal year since the inception of the program up to March 31, 1959, and what is the amount paid to each of them in each year?
3.	What provinces have not entered yet into such an agreement?
Questions
Answer by: Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):
1. The first program covering the period January 2, 1958, to May 31, 1958, was initiated on January 2, 1958.
The second program covering the period November 1, 1958, to May 31, 1959, was initiated on October 30, 1958.
2 and 3. All provinces except Quebec entered into an agreement with the federal government to take part in the first program.
All provinces except Quebec and Prince Edward Island entered into an agreement with the federal government to take part in the second program. Prince Edward Island, however, is continuing this work under the trans-Canada highway camp ground and picnic area program.


SUMMARY OF FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS FOR CAMP GROUNDS AND PICNIC AREAS UNDER THE TWO WINTER WORKS PROGRAMS
[Stage Direction]
First program Contributions to provinces	Second program Contributions to provinces	Estimated contributions.Fiscal Year	Fiscal Year	Fiscal YearProvince	1957-58 1958-59	1958-59 1959-60	1959-60Newfoundland	Nova Scotia	New Brunswick	
Prince Edward Island
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia...
Nil
556.60
3,233.60
Nil
237,078.90
27,211.55
16,312.81
39,485.22
167,771.83
54,345.77
8,038.20
42,158.27
2,120.00
366,970.38
63,000.40
19.736.58
64.912.59 199,324.77
Nil
15,975.84
5,287.65
Nil
557,311.23
55,706.95
30,988.83
73,389.76
164,169.27
44,794.16
30.500 24,250
299,661
52.500
42.500 187,500 175,000
[The following items were passed in committee
of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
318.	General administration, $9,335,045.
Public buildings construction and services-
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-
319.	Newfoundland, $1,085,000.
320.	Nova Scotia, $1,025,000.
321.	Prince Edward Island, $90,000.
322.	New Brunswick, $490,000.
323.	Quebec, $5,931,000.
324.	Ottawa, $16,505,000.
325.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $13,330,000.
326.	Manitoba, $1,207,000.
327.	Saskatchewan, $1,775,000.
328.	Alberta, $2,535,000.
329.	British Columbia, $1,950,000.
330.	Yukon and Northwest Territories, $2,968,000.
331.	Improvements generally-
Not more than $25,000 to be expended on any one project without the approval of treasury board, $700,000.
332.	Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $1,300,000, $43,293,000.
333.	Furniture and furnishings for government departments, $2,549,820.
334.	Work in the interests of fire prevention $174,263.
Harbours and rivers-
Engineering services-
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-*
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-
335.	Newfoundland, $4,128,200.
336.	Nova Scotia, $5,150,500.
337.	Prince Edward Island, $1,092,000.
338.	New Brunswick, $4,388,000.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Items Passed
339.	Quebec, $5,757,900.
340.	Ontario, $6,223,500.
341.	Manitoba and Saskatchewan, $272,000.
342.	Alberta and Northwest Territories, $230,000.
343.	British Columbia and Yukon, $4,224,000.
344.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $275,000.
345.	Remedial works where damages are caused by, or endanger, navigation or federal government structures; and the completion of protection works already under way, $800,000.
346.	Repairs and upkeep, including reconstruction and replacements for the maintenance of services; wharf repairs at Ste. Angele de Laval, Quebec; and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $420,000, no new works to be undertaken, $2,800,000.
Dredging-
347. Maintenance and operation of plant and contract and day labour works, $3,606,075.
348. Construction or acquisition of plant and equipment, $2,632,500.
349.	Maintenance and operation of graving docks, locks and dams, $882,195.
Development engineering services-
350.	Canada's share of the cost of international and interprovincial bridges, as detailed in the estimates, $2,500,000.
351.	Towards replacement of low level Burlington canal bridge, $2,700,000.
352.	Towards an investigation to determine the feasibility of constructing a proposed causeway across Northumberland Strait, including the opening of a test quarry, $250,000.
353.	Roads and bridges-maintenance and operation, $186,175.
354.	Testing laboratories-operation and maintenance, $818,622.
Trans-Canada highway-
355.	Construction through national parks, $13,405,000.
356.	Contribution to the province of New Brunswick towards construction of dam on Tantramar river, New Brunswick, $84,375.
General-
357.	Advance planning of projects including acquisition of sites, $1,500,000.
358.	Balances required to complete any projects undertaken in previous fiscal years and for which no specific provision is made in the fiscal year 1959-60, $800,000.
359.	Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for: a maximum of $15,000 may be expended in respect of any one work and, with the approval of treasury board, that maximum may be increased to $25,000, $2,400,000.
360.	To supplement, on approval of treasury board except where less than $1,000 is required, any of the appropriations of the Department of Public Works, $700,000.
Central mortgage and housing corporation-
361.	Expenses incurred in constructing and supervising construction of married quarters, rental housing, schools and related services on behalf of the Department of National Defence, $900,000.
480. Advances to central mortgage and housing corporation for the purposes of subsection (1) of section 37 of the National Housing Act, 1954, in respect of housing projects for veterans and for housing projects at Gander, Newfoundland, for sale or rental, $60,000.
564.	General administration - further amount required, $197,000.
Public buildings-
Construction and services-
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-further amounts required-
565.	Ottawa, $696,000.
566.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $600,000.
567.	British Columbia, $35,000.
568.	Work in the interest of fire prevention-to extend the purposes of vote 334 of the main estimates for 1959-60 to include the making of a grant of $5,000 to the Canadian joint fire prevention publicity committee, $1.
Harbours and rivers engineering services- Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects- further amounts required-
569.	Newfoundland, $109,000.
570.	Nova Scotia, $265,000.
571.	New Brunswick, $700,000.
572.	Quebec, $101,000.
573.	Ontario, $973,000.
574.	British Columbia and Yukon, $50,000. Development engineering services-
Trans-Canada highway-
575.	Construction through national parks-further amount required, $200,000.
General-
576.	Balances required to complete any projects undertaken in previous fiscal years and for which no specific provision is made in the fiscal year 1959-60-further amount required, $300,000.
Central mortgage and housing corporation-
577.	To reimburse central mortgage and housing corporation for losses sustained by it during the fiscal year 1958-59 as a result of the operation of federal-provincial projects undertaken under section 36 of the National Housing Act, 1954, $127,667. Central mortgage and housing corporation-
606. Advances pursuant to sub-section (4) of section 36 of the National Housing Act, 1954, in respect of housing and land development projects undertaken jointly with the governments of the provinces during the fiscal year 1958-59, $22,000,000.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, June 8, 1959