1959-02-16

Mr. A. R. Smith (Calgary South) moved:: That the first report of the standing committee on estimates, presented to the house on Thursday, February 12, 1959 be now concurred in.


Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins):: Mr. Speaker, once again we in this group would like to state our position in regard to this motion, and of course in regard to all similar motions. We have stated our case on other occasions, but I believe it serves a good purpose to take this occasion to state it again.
I realize that the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) gave us an assurance the other day in this respect, and I wish to place on record at this point some of his remarks as they appear in Hansard. These are appropriate, I believe, and relate to the motion I intend to move. As found on page 989 of Hansard he is reported to have said:
-and I shall make it very clear that whenever the hon. members of this house fairly and responsibly find themselves in a position in which an injustice is being done in any way and the matter is brought to my attention, I shall do everything I can to rectify it.
Again, on the following page he went on to say:
I for one will say unequivocally that if at any time there is any action taken that would deny members of the opposition a fair opportunity of discharging their responsibility, I shall immediately see to it that a change is made in order to assure justice and fairness.
These words are very reassuring, Mr. Speaker, but I do not believe that is the way it was intended that parliament should be run. It is fine to have the assurance of the Prime Minister. He has certainly demonstrated in the past that he is very capable. He has certainly demonstrated that he has the loyalty and devotion of the members of the government. But there is one thing that we must always keep in mind, Mr. Speaker, and that is that individual members may come and go but governments keep on going. I am reminded of the immortal words of the poet Gray in his "Elegy in a Country Churchyard":
The boast of heraldry, the pomp of pow'r.
And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Await alike the inevitable hour:
The paths of glory lead but to the grave.
In a recent television interview, Mr. Speaker, conducted by Mr. Pierre Berton, a personality in this country said that in his opinion the Prime Minister suffered from an enormous ego, and certainly the remarks contained in Hansard for last Friday bear out this point. I say it is far better that parliament itself should decide these things rather than any one individual, however capable he may be or however much loyalty he may command.
Certain rules have been laid down for the conduct of the business of this house. There must be a reason for them, and I think it is regrettable that it is becoming so habitual for these rules to be amended automatically at the first opportunity that arises in the house. I believe the rules of this house should be observed. Whenever the occasion and the need arise I am sure parliament will grant permission for these committees to sit while the house is sitting. I do not think this right should be granted automatically before the occasion has arisen.
For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch):
That the motion be amended by deleting the words "now concurred in", and substituting therefor the following:
"Referred back to the said committee with instruction to amend the same by deleting therefrom paragraph 3 which reads as follows: That it be authorized to sit while the house is sitting."


Mr. Chevrier:: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Winch:: May I speak as seconder of the motion?


Mr. Murphy:: Sit down.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for
Laurier.


Harold Edward Winch: I just want to protect my right to speak.


Joseph Warner Murphy: You do not know what your rights are.


Harold Edward Winch: As seconder of the motion, do I lose my right to speak?


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member knows the rules of the house. A speaker who is recognized by the chair has the floor.

Estimates Committee


Joseph Warner Murphy: He would not know.


Mr. Speaker:: In due course the hon. member will have his opportunity.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not
want to delay the house lor any length of time on this matter, Mr. Speaker. All I wanted to say was this. We made our position on this matter quite clear the other day, and that position obtains now as it did then. I have no intention of repeating what I said on that occasion.


An hon. Member:: I hope so.


Lionel Chevrier: My hon. friend says "I hope so". I would remind my hon. friend that I am within my rights in discussing the matter at this time. I think it ill becomes those who continually interrupt when members of parliament on this side rise to try to make their position clear.
The position I am trying to take is not a new one, but I should like to repeat what was said on an earlier occasion and to do so as briefly as I can. 1 had risen, sir, to say that our position today is the same as it was on Friday last, and it is going to be the same on all these motions that are on the order paper. I do not want to take up an undue amount of the time of the house on this particular occasion, other than to say that our position now is the same as it was on Friday.


Harold Edward Winch: desire to say a few words on this motion. In so doing I want to make it very clear to you, although I know it is not required, that when I speak on a principle in this house it is the same principle upon which I speak or take a stand when in committee. I was at the organization meeting of the standing committee on estimates. In that committee I expressed my objection in a very few words, and I voted against the inclusion of this recommendation in the committee's report.
The main reason I rise is not only to express my objection to this procedure of a committee meeting at the same time as the house, but also because of something which I feel should be drawn very specifically to your attention as Speaker of this house and therefore guardian of the rights of all members of this house. I presume, sir, that applies not only to the House of Commons but to the committees of the house. I am going to say directly that in my opinion there has been and there is a conspiracy- legal, yes-so far as the relationship of government members and opposition members is concerned in the committees of this house.

There have been occasions in the past when a standing committee, at its first meeting, has recommended that the standing order be suspended and the committee allowed to sit while the house is meeting. There may have been occasions when, at its first meeting, a committee has recommended that the quorum be reduced from that established by the standing orders. But, Mr. Speaker, I am certain that while you have had the honour of occupying the high position you now hold, that has not been customary.
But, sir, what has occurred? At every meeting of a standing committee for organizational purposes during this session, two typed and prepared motions have been presented. One has been to the effect that the rules be suspended in order that the committee may meet while the house is sitting, and the other has been for a reduction in the quorum established under standing orders. As the committee work proceeds it is eventually found necessary to reduce the quorum or, to stick to the words of the motion, to sit while the house is sitting. This should be done, sir, as it is found necessary.
I think you, Mr. Speaker, being so intelligent, will understand that something must have gone on. As a matter of fact, I understand unofficially that some of the chairmen did not know about these motions being prepared until they saw them in front of them on their agenda when the committees met. With all due respect to the magnificent men who are the clerks of our committees, may I say that it is not their responsibility to draft agenda or motions. Therefore there seems to have been some direction. Then there is the fact that every committee has done exactly the same thing, something which was never done before. I say that this looks like a conspiracy against the opposition. Mr. Speaker, it is not possible for members of the opposition to carry on right from the beginning with a gun at their heads, and I say "with a gun at their heads" advisedly.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Harold Edward Winch: You have not the right to sit on committees, Mr. Speaker, but I can tell you this. That huge majority which the government has operates in committees in the same way it operates on the floor of the House of Commons. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that this is, for all committees at the same time, at the first meeting, a most unusual procedure. On the basis on precedents and on the basis of the true meaning of democratic parliament, as a member of this house speaking now as I voted in committee-thereby differing a little, may I say, from members of the official opposition who

speak one way in the House of Commons and vote differently in committee-


An hon. Member:: Oh, put on a new needle.


Harold Edward Winch: -I submit most wholeheartedly that our amendment should be accepted. I submit that when circumstances or exigencies arise is the time for the committee and the house to give consideration to a reduction in the quorum and in particular to the question whether the committee should sit when the House of Commons is sitting.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, we are now having a repetition in part of the debate which was held on Friday when, as the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) points out, the case was thoroughly presented on both sides of the house. As a matter of fact the hon. member for Laurier drew attention to the fact that having committees sitting while the house is in session is not an unusual event. He said it is quite easy for a committee to take this power in the dying days of the session when it is perhaps necessary to do so.
From my recollection, one of the faults in the past has been that on occasion on some committees that was done in the dying days of the session and it just about killed off the members because provision had not been made earlier in the session for committees to meet when there was a little more leisure time. The provision that is in the resolution before us simply is an orderly method of conducting the business of the committees of this house. The power is there. It does not have to be used immediately. If in the opinion of the committee that power should be used, then the committee does not have to take the time of this house to come back and ask for a change in its instructions.
I cannot let pass without comment the remark of the mover of the motion to the effect that the rules of this house are amended automatically. That is something that has never taken place, Mr. Speaker, and I think the hon. member was quite out of order in making such a remark. There is no amendment of the rules of this house automatically, and there never has been.
The suggestion of the seconder of the motion to the effect that some conspiracy was entered into is, of course, just too ridiculous for any extended comment. This is just an orderly arrangement for the purpose of conducting the business of the house in a good manner. In the past the committees have either been given this privilege at the start of a session or later on. I have served on a sufficient number of committees of this house 66968-9-66J
Division
to know what I am talking about. When we were in opposition we had to work very hard, as I hope the present opposition will, to keep up with the business of the house, but we did not complain as they are complaining. The present motion, Mr. Speaker, asking that the committee be instructed to alter this report will, of course, not be acceptable to the government, and the motion I think should be defeated.


Mr. Peters:: Before the last speaker sits down may I ask him a question. May I inquire if he could inform the house where the slips of paper originated from, if they did not originate in committee?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I doubt, Mr. Speaker, if that is pertinent to the debate at all.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division.



MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS


Mr. R. J. McCleave (Halifax) moved:: That the first report of the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills, presented to the house on Thursday, February 12, 1959, be now concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division.



AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION


Mr. Hayden Stanton (Leeds) moved:: That the first report of the standing committee on agriculture and colonization, presented to the house on Friday, February 13, 1959, be now concurred in.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division.



INDIAN AFFAIRS

Mr. Speaker:: I declare the amendment lost. The question is now on the main motion. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Mr. Argue:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division.



MINES, FORESTS AND WATERS    CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE

Joseph Warner Murphy: That the first report of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters, presented to the house on Thursday, February 12, 1959, be now concurred in.



LEGISLATION TO CONFIRM CANADA-NEW BRUNSWICK AGREEMENT RESPECTING RESERVES

Hon. E. D. Fulton (for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) moved: the first reading of Bill No. S-6 (from the Senate) to confirm an agreement between the government of Canada and the government of the province of New Brunswick respecting Indian reserves.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



THE MINISTRY

Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. Members:: On division.
Motion agreed to on division.



BANKING AND COMMERCE


Mr. John B. Hamilton (York West, for Mr. Cathers) moved:: 



PROVISION FOR APPOINTMENT OF PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the appointment of parliamentary secretaries to ministers, to provide for the payment of salaries to them at the rate of $4,000 per annum

out of the consolidated revenue fund and to authorize the reimbursement to them of reasonable expenses incurred by them in the discharge of their duties.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 39-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged during the past two years, between the federal government and any provincial government, or agency of the government of the United States, with regard to the setting of tolls on the St. Lawrence seaway.
Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to the hon. member, and the understanding is that he is interested in any official communications there may be between the federal government and any provincial government, or any agency of the government of the United States, and not in routine correspondence between departments or agencies of the government. Subject to this understanding and to the usual reservation as to the consent of any other governments concerned, there is no objection to the motion.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion subject to the reservations expressed by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 40-Mr. McWilliam:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents exchanged since July 1, 1957, to date, between the federal government or any official thereof, and any person, relating to a contract for the carrying of mails between Caledonia, Queens county, Nova Scotia, and Maitland Bridge: Nova Scotia.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 41-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of the report submitted December 4, 1958, by the conciliation board appointed October 28, 1958, to mediate in the dispute between local No. 2-254 of the international woodworkers of America, and the Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company, Limited.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I have discussed this motion with the Minister of Labour and I would ask permission to have it dropped.
Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member leave to drop this motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and motion dropped.
Motions for Papers



NEWFOUNDLAND-USE OF R.C.M.P.

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 42-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of the contract entered into by the federal government and the government of Newfoundland, concerning the use of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Newfoundland.
Motion agreed to.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, in compliance with the order of the house I now table two copies of the said contract.



LABOUR DISPUTE, NEWFOUNDLAND

[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 45-Mr. Argue:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, or other documents exchanged between the federal government or any agency thereof, and the government of Newfoundland, the Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company Limited, or the international woodworkers of America, regarding the dispute between the Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company Limited and the international woodworkers of America.
Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, this motion is agreed to subject to the usual agreement on the part of the province concerned, but I should like to tell the hon. member that to my knowledge there has been no exchange of correspondence between the federal government and the government of Newfoundland with regard to this matter.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion subject to the limitation imposed by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. J. R. Taylor (Vancouver-Burrard) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give early consideration to the advisability of establishing a Canada sports council with the object of fostering and encouraging amateur sport in Canada, such council to have representatives from each of the provinces of Canada.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak on this most important public matter. It was just a little over two years ago that the prime minister of the day rose in his place and gave, in a most refreshing manner, the reasons why it was necessary to establish the Canada council. The Canada council was established, as you will recall, to assist the arts, humanities and social sciences.
The reasons advanced by him then for the establishment of the Canada council are
1038	HOUSE OF
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council the same reasons that can be advanced for the establishment of a Canada sports council. If there was a need for a Canada council, then I submit that there is an even greater need for the establishment of a Canada sports council, because we are dealing with the health and fitness of the people of the nation. I do not know who said it, but it is true that a nation's health is a nation's wealth and we should not forget it.
In reading Hansard for January, 1957 I noticed that practically all members on both sides of the house strongly supported the establishment of the Canada council. The then prime minister also pointed out that practically all thoughtful Canadians who are really concerned about the future welfare of Canada also strongly supported the council. In reading the debates of that day I noticed also, Mr. Speaker, that the present Prime Minister spoke in favour of the formation of the council. He went on to say:
Indeed, the question has been asked on numerous occasions since 1951, why has the government delayed so long in the setting up of this council?
I do hope that all hon. members and the Prime Minister will have the same feeling toward the establishment of this sports council. I am sure that the early establishment of a Canada sports council would be welcomed in all parts of the country. I am sure also that under the inspiring leadership of the Prime Minister, early and sympathetic consideration will be given to this important matter.
In glancing at the first annual report of the Canada council one would seem to find confirmation of the views and opinions of those who advocated the council. I notice on page 20 of the first annual report of the Canada council the following:
In not a few places it has been gratifying to hear those responsible for local organizations say that in consequence of the council's help and recognition, local financial support has been increased and attendance enlarged.
The report goes on to say that during the 1957-58 season the council supported seven symphony orchestras. While the number of regular concerts given was the same as in the previous year, the number of performances for children and others was almost doubled, increasing from 93 to 175, and the total attendance increased from about 320,000 to an estimated 477,000. I am sure that if hon. members will support the establishment of a Canada sports council, the first annual report of the proposed new organization will be equally glowing.
I do suggest that if the sports council is formed the one paramount rule should be that the organization be as free from state


control as it is prudent for any body to be that is entrusted with public funds. I would further suggest that the general rules which now apply to the Canada council also apply to the proposed Canada sports council, with of course minor changes. I do suggest also, Mr. Speaker, that representatives from each province of Canada be appointed so that the organization will be a truly representative one.
The persons chosen, I submit, should be familiar with the great problems now facing all athletic clubs and all athletic associations from one end of the country to the other. The persons chosen should be prepared, I submit, to devote much time to the youth of Canada who desire to play games in national and international competition.
Now, Mr. Speaker, no one could go wrong in considering such men as Mr. Bob Osborne of Vancouver or the former mayor of Vancouver, Mr. Fred Hume. Then in Alberta there is one man who stands out, namely Mr. Mervin Dutton, who could add a great deal to such a council. The prairie provinces and Ontario could certainly contribute many worth-while people to serve. We could also well consider Mr. Melville Rogers of Ottawa, who has long been associated with the problems and issues facing athletic organizations in Canada. Then when you consider Quebec there are names that stand out as possibilities. I would suggest men like Cooper Smeaton, who has long been associated with the amateur athletic union of Canada. One of the members of the Molson family might also be a possibility, and there are men like Mr. Andy O'Brien, who has probably travelled with more Canadian teams than any other person in the country.
I do say, Mr. Speaker, that if help is given no one need fear any longer that Canada will rank behind England, Australia and South Africa. I feel that if help is given, at the next British Empire games Canada could possibly pull ahead of South Africa. If help is given possibly this country could once again see a truly national junior hockey final. The same remarks would apply to lacrosse. If help were given, I feel sure that we could do better in Davis cup play. We could do so much to encourage people to play badminton and so many of the other amateur sports.
One might ask, Mr. Speaker, how amateur sport is doing in Canada without adequate federal assistance. In summary, I would say that Canada is faring very poorly. For example, just last summer at Cardiff Arms park in Cardiff, Wales 33,000 spectators watched the closing events of the British Empire games. There were 250 reporters in the press box covering the activities of some

1,500 athletes from 35 countries. I submit that Canada put on a drab display. Canada's one gold medal came in rowing. In the final point standings we ranked fourth, well behind South Africa and a mere 100 points in front of Pakistan and the host country, Wales.
At the last Olympic games held at Melbourne in 1956, Canada gained only 52 points to place 16th amongst 44 nations. Hon. members will recall that last year in Davis cup tennis we played against a United States team that was virtually untested, and the United States team made a clean sweep of the five game series.
After the 1948 Olympic games, in fact after the 1952 and 1956 Olympic games, considerable publicity was devoted to what was called Canada's inadequate showing. I say to all hon. members that when thousands of people gather in stadia in so many different countries to witness our athletic representatives, and when so many millions of others see our representatives on television, being second rate is bad business. Some believe that at Wales we ran into bad luck. I say to you, no matter how you look at it, we simply seem to be bad; and what is more, we seem to be getting worse.
Mr. Andy O'Brien of Weekend magazine, the person who probably is best able to report on this sort of thing, has said that even in hockey, our best sport, he feels that our supremacy has not long to survive. Then in the gallery today there is Mr. Taylor, senior, who proceeded last year with the Kelowna team to Russia, and who I am sure was impressed with what he saw in that country in so far as athletic events were concerned.
In the first game there he saw the Canadian team go down to defeat before 17,000 Russian hockey fans by a score of 4 to 3. The press report said that the Russians outpaced and outskated the Canadians and generally out-shot them. In the second game there was a tie. In the third game there was a tie. In the last two games Canada was able to beat Russia. Bobbie Rosenfeld, the sports reporter, who was an outstanding Canadian athlete-in fact the outstanding Canadian athlete of the half century-stated:
We've been waiting desperately for something to cheer about ever since 1928 at Amsterdam-
Of course she was writing in 1952.
-when the lean and hungry looking Percy Williams popped the eyeballs out of the athletic world . . * We have been left wallowing in the wake of other more energetic nations who have become activated with the spirit of competition. Since the last Olympics, many countries, refusing the role of also-rans, have introduced development programs, with all athletes-junior and senior -tabbed. These countries have also set up a centralized coaching system which is most prominent in track and field and swimming.
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
She said that a survey should be made of Canada's athletic needs and problems and the talent available at the present time. She said also that we should have a development program. I should like to suggest that we get cracking and give our athletes an even break.
Then I noticed an article in the Canadian Commentator written by Mr. A. D. White, who is a popular and successful coach at the University of Toronto. Mr. White delivered a paper at the Couchiching conference and he said this when referring to the Olympic games:
It appears that in Canada there is little understanding of the professional calibre of this international sports show in which our athletes seem so poorly equipped to compete.
One interesting observation was this:
Some observers have interpreted our results at the games as an indication that the Canadian population is below par, physically.
If we are below par physically, Mr. Speaker, something ought to be done about it at an early date. I am sure all hon. members know the poem which goes like this:
But when that One Great Scorer comes to write against your name,
It's not whether you won or lost but how you played the game.
But as so many Canadians see it today, in international sport we have been become chronic good losers. There are too many Canadians, Mr. Speaker, who belong, I suggest, to the cult of "good losemanship". I am sure that all hon. members and for that matter ministers are tired of appeals being made to them for federal funds to assist travelling clubs. The creation of a Canada sports council would not end all the appeals, but at least the athletic governing bodies would be able to police themselves better and the essential things could be taken care of. That is what the Canada council has found to date. The council cannot take care of all appeals, but the essential things are taken care of.
Since last November I have received, as I imagine all hon. members have, letters from various athletic clubs throughout the country. There was an appeal made by the team that represented Canada in Moscow. In fact in connection with that appeal it looked just before they left as though they would not get sufficient money, and the officials were almost on the point of calling it off. We who live in the west witnessed the team having to go and play a number of exhibition games in order to raise funds, and one player remarked that the players were in a state of exhaustion before they ever left for overseas. I suggest that being in a state

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council of exhaustion is no way to represent Canada before thousands of hockey fans overseas.
Then there was the appeal of the basketball team that represented Canada in Chile. That team, like all of the other clubs, received no federal assistance. However, that team put up a remarkable showing in Chile; it went on to beat Russia and defeated Mexico. I am sure that the Canadian team in Chile made a great number of friends there and did a great deal to help Canadian businessmen.
Then there was the appeal made by the grass hockey team that was to represent Canada in a series of games against England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Germany, France, United States and South Africa. The officials of that club felt that the federal government would want to assist these travelling ambassadors in cementing the healthy relations established during their last international conference.
Then there was a further appeal by the rugby team that is to represent Canada in Japan. The officials of that club have pointed out the numerous advantages of sending them as a truly representative team from Canada. We all know about the appeal for federal assistance for the Belleville McFarlands hockey team. We are all aware of the trouble the team officials had to go to in order to raise money to get to the Olympics. I do not need to deal with the troubles they had, but hon. members will recall that bingo games had to be staged and an agency apparently had to be appointed to assist.
Other countries have recognized the problem, Mr. Speaker, and action has been taken. I refer first of all to the United States. Public law 85-365 is an act to authorize certain activities by the armed forces in support of the 8th Olympic games and for other purposes. Section 2 of that act passed by the United States congress authorized certain things to be done, in addition to constructing on federal land in Squaw valley an arena suitable for the conduct of sports, and providing for appropriate ceremonies in connection with the 8th Olympic winter games. When completed the arena becomes the property of the United States. There was authorized by section 4 of the act a sum not to exceed $3,500,000.
Another United States public law was passed, No. 85-449, which was a joint resolution of the eighty-fifth congress, to authorize the designation of the week beginning October 3, 1958, as national Olympic week. Here the President of the United States was authorized to issue a proclamation designating the week to which I have referred as national Olympic week and urging all

citizens of that country to do all in their power to support the Olympic games, the Olympic winter games to be held in 1960, and the pan-American games to be held in 1959 at Chicago.
Then I notice, in making a review of the situation, that there were other public general bills of the United States. One, S-4038, authorizes the President to provide for tours of athletes from the United States to foreign countries, and to assist others in the United State. Then, as a matter of reference, there is another public law of the United States, No. 85-300, which authorizes construction, maintenance and operation by the armoury board in the district of Columbia in connection with the stadia in that district. It would appear that in the United States proclamations have been made almost annually by the president to assist amateur athletes in that country. I notice also, in making a review, that Russia, South American countries and England give much greater support to teams in international play and, as in the United States, the whole question of physical fitness is given active consideration.
Hon. members might like to know that in 1955 President Eisenhower called a White House conference to discuss the state of fitness of American youth. In 1956 the same president by executive order established the president's council on youth fitness, and in 1957 selected citizens were named to President Eisenhower's citizens' advisory committee. Other countries, Mr. Speaker, have realized that national prestige is increasingly associated with athletic showing.
Mr. Speaker, in order to assist all athletes, and at the same time improve the health of Canadians, I suggest the government should do the following. First, I think the Canada sports council should be established. Second, I feel that the government should request the council to survey the needs and basic requirements of our athletes. Third, I think the government should create a fund under the control of the council in the same way as with the Canada council, to assist amateur athletes. Fourth, I would suggest to the defence department that wherever and whenever possible this department should assist the amateurs.
Here, Mr. Speaker, I would like to mention that in the United States, for example, military transport will take athletes from all countries to the forthcoming pan-American games to be held in Chicago in August of this year, and return them free of charge by what is known as a friendship airlift. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that was inspired by the

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
U.S. state department. I suggest further that as the navy has to make trips to overseas ports, and as air transport has to make overseas trips, it might be feasible, say in 1960, to take such trips to Rome where the Olympic games will be held and transport the Canadian Olympic squad to that event.
Fifth, I would suggest that the government proclaim once every four years an Olympic week, when citizens can be urged to support with money the Canadian Olympic team. Sixth, the government should forthwith help the city of Vancouver or other cities of Canada which apply to hold the pan-American games. If Chile can entertain this large sports event, surely Canada can also. Vancouver at the moment is very interested, but Vancouver officials will say they cannot go it alone but need federal assistance.
I also noticed, in connection with the games to be held in Chicago, that the United States congress had passed a bill to help that city. I would urge that we also give every encouragement to the Canadian team representing this country at Chicago next year. I would suggest further that we send a large group; and possibly, if this council can be appointed, that they work out a Canada day in downtown Chicago. I am sure that many Canadians who now live in that city would enjoy seeing a Canada day there. It could be arranged, and it would be nice to show them that we still have something to cheer about in Canada.
Seventh, I suggest that on celebrating our centenary in 1967 a special effort be made to be host to the Olympic games that year. Ad-nittedly the games are to be held in 1968, but with an enthusiastic council possibly the Olympic committee could be persuaded to hold the games in 1967. Mr. Speaker, I suggest that anything is possible in connection with an event of this kind if we can get along with a Canada sports council.
Eighth, through the proposed council every assistance should be given to the hon. member for Calgary South, who is making such a wonderful effort to hold the winter Olympics at Banff in 1964 or 1968. Mr. McKay of that city and our colleague from Calgary South are doing a wonderful job for western Canada in this regard, and if they are able to hold the winter games at Banff it will do wonders for the whole of Canada. I believe it was that same combination that did so much to make the Grey cup classic what it is today.
There will be lasting benefits if Canada does hold the winter Olympics. One of them would surely be the reopening of the Banff Springs hotel. This, I suggest, would reverse the present trend of our skiing enthusiasts
proceeding to the great resorts in the United States, and would attract American skiing enthusiasts and tourists to Canada. The benefits in this regard would be enormous, and with a sports council recommendations can be made to handle this sort of thing.
In the Vancouver area, Mr. Speaker, it is the most amazing sight. We lack snow close to Vancouver, and upwards of 5,000 skiers will go every week to Mount Baker, some short distance south of the United States border. That is an area which has been developed by the United States federal government. It is an odd sight to see Canadians using those ski facilities and outnumbering the Americans by about three to one. With a sports council, new ideas can be put forward as to how we can develop our Canadian resorts and thereby give employment to many, many people. I notice that some 700 people will be employed at Squaw Valley next year when the Olympic games are held there. Certainly large numbers of people will be employed in the Banff area and throughout British Columbia for that matter, if we get the winter Olympics in 1964 or 1968.
Then I suggest, ninth, that a national school for coaches be established by the senior government through the Canada Council. I suggest that coaches properly trained could do so much with the young people of Canada. Here would be a national program aimed at the masses. The health of Canadian youth would improve, and from the many we could select more super athletes for international competition.
Tenth, the senior government in its national parks could give every consideration to the construction and erection of those things which would encourage the youth of Canada to participate in outdoor activities.
Eleventh, the senior government could work out a plan with the provincial governments, using the council, for a similar works project in provincial parks. Further, capital loans at low rates of interest could be made to resort owners willing to instal equipment to meet the demands of outdoor sportsmen.
I suggest that as many government departments would benefit by a program of this kind there would be no need to increase taxation in order to raise the funds that would be required under the Canada sports council. I suggest that there should be a reassessment of the entire situation. For one thing, a healthier nation would lead to a reduction in the need for hospital and medical services. For this reason the Department of National Health and Welfare should contribute to the Canada sports council fund. Then there are tremendous economic dividends when Canada does well in international

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council play, and I suggest that the Department of Trade and Commerce be prepared to slice its budget in favour of making room for the Canada sports council. I do not know how many thousands of dollars they spent on the Brussells exhibit, but I suggest we spent little or nothing on such wonderful exhibits as Barbara Ann Scott, Anne Heggtveit of Ottawa and the Penticton V's. We spent little or nothing on the Penticton V's, yet this team thrilled all Canada and other countries besides. If the Department of Trade and Commerce appreciates all this, a contribution might well be made.
I suggest also that there might be a reassessment with respect to the national film board. I notice that this year 43 films in 15 languages were completed for distribution. As Canadian athletes do the same job, namely the job of selling Canada, surely it would be wise to permit a budget cut here in favour of the sports council. I feel also that a healthy contribution should be made by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I suggest that a healthy council, properly endowed, might stop the decay of the muscle of our youth and reverse the trend, allowing us to keep up with the athletic advancement of other nations.
I think generally speaking we have treated our travelling ambassadors poorly. They go overseas badly equipped. They need much more in the way of suitable dress. I wish to compliment the officials and sponsors of clubs who do send these travelling ambassadors overseas, and I can hardly criticize them for doing a little bit of advertising on the side, but it is confusing to many sports fans overseas to see a maple leaf on the front of a sweater and find some advertising material on the back. I think in time this situation may get worse unless some federal assistance is forthcoming. It may well come to pass that we shall see such a sign as "Ace Beer" on the front of a sweater and "Acme Moving Company" on the back.
We must give more financial assistance to these clubs; otherwise they may well be forced to advertise. We do make blazers available from time to time, but if it is a rainy day blazers cannot be worn, and the athletes have no windbreakers or jackets to wear in substitution. Our sportsmen abroad often lack the means of exchanging the common courtesies. Most other clubs taking part in international competitions are able to supply what are called traders. They give away badges, pins, miniature flags and so on. However, our teams go overseas without that sort of thing, and many of our officials are embarrassed when we are on the receiving end and are not able to give such things in exchange.
	,
Mr. Speaker, my time must be running out. In closing, may I say that I feel we should appoint this sports council and then go all out to celebrate Canada's centenary in 1967. I suggest that at an early date through the sports council we petition the pan-American games committee to have this great event here in 1967. As the Olympic games are to be held the following year, possibly the same plant and equipment could be used for both events. I suggest we tie in an athletic spectacle with a world's fair for Canada.
Here in Ottawa surely, as we are celebrating Canada's birthday, we might well be the centre of a great birthday party. The city certainly needs a larger and more modern sports field to hold national and international events. If a stadium could be constructed here for great national classics it might well be that the Grey cup game could be played in Ottawa in 1967.
These are some of the things that could be considered if we did get the type of man I have suggested on the sports council; and if it was properly endowed with funds that council would be able to do wonders for Canada.
(Translation):


Mr. Alexis Caron (Hull):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say just a few words in support of the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor). There is no doubt that the motion has much merit, for Canadian amateur sport seems to be somewhat on the wane. In the smaller communities, it is even difficult to keep it going at all. However, I cannot fully agree with the hon. member's suggestion that what is needed is a Canada sports council along the lines of the Canada arts council. In my view, there is an enormous difference between arts, public education, and sports.
Of course, I do not claim that sports should be neglected; on the contrary, to my mind, they should receive federal support. Our teams do not rank as highly as they should at Olympic or Commonwealth games because our sports organizations are not strong enough to enable players to train without holding a paying job somewhere, and are thus prevented from adequate, thorough training.
That is why I feel that the Canadian government should consider the advisability of setting up a Canada sports council to support amateur sport. However, I do not share the hon. member for Vancouver-Bur-rard's suggestions in regard to some persons who should be made members of the Canada sports council.

The hon. member seems to favour the appointment of certain professional sport magnates and promoters; that is exactly what is wrong with sports in Canada.
Professional sport magnates in Canada have such a grip on sports that they paralyse all amateur sports not under their control. In the field of sports Canada is faced with a certain form of slavery, due to Canadian professional sports magnates.
I could give several examples, but shall mention only two. Take the case of the "Canadiens" hockey team, whose directors have been unwilling for over three years to grant amateur status to a member of the team who has refused to be "demoted" to the "Royals", although amateur status would have enabled him to play in a lesser league in the area. In fact, he was to have joined the Hull Legion team. This he was not allowed to do because he had refused to play on a minor league team when he was the property of the "Canadiens". He was also prevented from playing on the Belleville team, which will be taking part in amateur competitions in Europe.
The same situation occurred in Toronto. An 18-year old student who had signed a contract with the Toronto team, was barred from playing organized hockey, for having made some unfortunate remarks about Mr. Connie Smythe; the latter decided that he would never be allowed to play in organized hockey. That young man was unable to play, much as he tried to get permission.
It is therefore necessary that the Canada sports council be empowered to reverse the decision of this dangerous organization of professional sports magnates, so that amateurs may, after playing for a season on a particular team, or having fulfilled a contract for a season or two, decide on the type of game they wish to play and choose the team they prefer to play on.
These are further reasons, Mr. Speaker, why we should establish a Canada sports council. That is also why I urge the government, if the proposal is carried, to see that professional sports magnates be kept out of this council, because they are the bane of amateur sports.
I therefore hope, Mr. Speaker, that the government will consider my remarks if ever the sports council is set up.
(Text):


Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: Mr. Speaker, one of the leading Brahmins of the world of culture, T. S. Elliot, wrote a book sometime
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council ago called "Notes On The Definition Of A Culture" and it intrigued me that a man who is famous for having written some of the most obscure modern poetry should, in defining a culture, turn to sports so often to point out the depth of a peoples' culture. Events such as the cup final and the annual Oxford and Cambridge rugby classic were very much to the fore in his remarks on English culture in that book. If we look at the United States scene we can see that such national events as the Kentucky derby and the world series are a strong indication that sports have permeated their culture very deeply, and sports is a subject worthy of consideration in any national assembly.
What I wish to do in my remarks today is trace something of the history of sporting developments in Canada. I am amazed that the hon. member who sponsored this resolution made no reference to the National Physical Fitness Act of 1943 which was repealed in 1954 and I was equally amazed at his not mentioning the early attempts before world war I to set up forms of gymnastic sport by the federal government, which attempts failed as did the legislation to which I made reference. The hon. member did not make any sharp definition between an amateur and professional. The very thought of someone like Mervin "Red" Dutton serving on a national sport council sends shivers up my spine. The next thing we know, someone will suggest the name of an individual like Connie Smythe whose main philosophy with respect to sports is "if you can't beat them out in the alley, you cannot beat them out on the ice" and whose philosophy has some retrograde tendencies as far as amateur sports are concerned.


Mr. Stinson:: Shame.


Douglas Mason Fisher: One of the ideas implicit in the hon. member's resolution is that Canada must attain some status in the international field of sports and since sports have become a means by which a nation attains international status and recognition Canada has to get into the picture. Canadians suffer from a great inferiority complex toward the United States in the field of sports and we would have to overcome this. At one time back in the golden age of Canadian sports between 1870 and 1905 we did not have to take a back seat to the United States and as a matter of fact we were held up to them as an example. To illustrate this I have here a little poem written back in 1877 to commemorate the feats of Ned Hanlan who went to the Philadelphia centennial sporting events and then to
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Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council England where he distinguished himself. The poem is entitled "The Ode" and reads as follows:
Hail to the champion sculler,
Toronto's manly son.
Who, across the line and on the Tyne Hath famous victories won.
And with three cheers for Hanlan,
The champion of the oar,
Let us shout, hurrah for Canada!
The land which such hero bore.
It is lousy poetry but the point is that it expresses the national sentiment that is involved in the hon. member's resolution. There have been a great many silly things attributed to sports in Canada. One myth that is encountered on the sports page of almost any newspaper from time to time is that lacrosse is the national game of Canada. According to some accounts an act of this house was passed on July 1, 1867 making lacrosse our national game. That happens to be a pack of nonsense but no one has ever explored the question in an effort to understand how the idea developed. Lacrosse is one of the most fascinating examples of what happens to sports in Canada.
I suggest that if you look into the history of sports and games in this country you will find they never developed from the play of children but always from a situation wherein people had leisure time, sufficient money and adequate status in a community to organize the game on a fine, rational basis. Dr. W. G. Beers, the man who codified the rules of lacrosse and is responsible for the myth that it is our national game, is an example of this. He was a fairly well-to-do dentist in Montreal and consorted with people such as the Abbotts and Redpaths who were well-known in Montreal sporting and moneyed circles. A small group of such young men connected with McGill University had watched Indians play lacrosse and decided that it was an attractive game. They rationalized and adapted the sport and developed a code of rules. With the coming of confederation Beers decided to tie the two developments together and so he hammered across the idea that on July 1, 1867 we would have a new national game as well as a new nation. Thus the idea was born and lacrosse ever since has been referred to as our national sport because of this publicity. Of course, it has never really been an official game. You cannot find it mentioned anywhere in the statutes or in an order in council. As a matter of fact, on July 1, 1867, the day on which it was supposed to have been made our national sport, the House of Commons, although it sat, did not have any discussion or debate nor did it take up any business in which such a step could have been taken. 

As a game, lacrosse went through a period of tremendous expansion and in that expansion it manifested one of the prominent tendencies of sports in Canada. The local towns, small cities and larger centres all want to get into the game and they do so with great local pride once they become established in the sport. That happened with lacrosse, football and hockey. They quickly moved across the country. In each case the people wanted to have a national championship. As a matter of fact, within two years of the C.P.R. reaching the west coast the people in that area were sending down a lacrosse team in an effort to capture the national award.
The trend to group participation in national sporting games has been extremely strong in Canada. In one period we had people like Mr. P. D. Ross, publisher of the Ottawa Journal, and "Iron" Mike Fallon, later bishop of London, who was the first man to introduce American football ideas into Canadian football in the 1890's. There was a great sporting fervour at that time.
If you analyse the reason for this infectious interest in sport which existed at that time it was because these sports were in the hands of a fairly small group of people who had leisure and a certain amount of money. This accounted for the expansion. Eventually, professionalism entered the scene in Canada although there were early glimmerings of it before 1867 and certainly Ned Hanlan is reported to have made $85,000 in one expedition. However, professionalism in the true sense did not enter the picture until 1907 when a football coach for the first time was paid a salary. His name was Chauncey Elliott. The next year and the next, lacrosse, which had been semi-professional but largely amateur, became professional in the full sense and then a professional hockey league came into being.
With the development of professionalism in Canada, paralleled by developments in the United States, you had a different type of conflict in the athletic scene than you had ever had before. A very famous Spanish philosopher, Ortega y Gasset, has put the whole basis of our society as having developed out of a game and a subsequent code of rules. His argument was that the British had the best democratic sense in the whole world because they had developed this idea of gamesmanship, not in the Stephen Potter sense, but in the sense of respect for the game to the point where they played it as gentlemen, and while the idea of winning was usually paramount it never got in the way of the fact that they wanted to have a good game. So you got this code of ethics and sense of fairness, and English gentlemen, coming out



IB, 1959

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of schools such as Eton, Winchester and the rest, carried this into their parliamentary life and helped to give it stability and a fair code that many of the other countries of the world have never been able to match.
So far as politics are concerned, I have noticed that politicians cannot stay away from sport. In one of this first ambits or gambits after being elected, the present Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) appeared, very athletically clad, to kick the football at a Grey cup match. We can all remember the late Mr. King prancing out when Barbara Ann Scott came home in order to benefit from her publicity. He was seen with her on several occasions. I think that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) has been able to make a great play out of the fact that he *was a good athlete, that he is a very sporting type and can talk the language of sport. To me, perhaps the most amusing incident in the political scene had to do with a C.C.F. member. I remember how stunned I was when I saw the former member for Winnipeg North Centre cavorting around at Grey cup time with a sombrero on his head.
The theme of the athlete and the game being important in national terms is something that has been close to us for a very long time, and it seems to me that the decision we have to face is whether we actually want to subsidize sport under the international conditions that exist today. A number of members of our group are in favour of the motion in principle. I would abstain from voting on it because I feel that the conditions attached to the resolution by the member who introduced it largely represent things that I cannot support.
Games, sports, athletics, whatever you want to call them, amateur or professional, games of skill, games of chance, represent a very cluttered and mixed up situation when we consider them and try to decide whether they are worth while or not worth while. I know one of the causes of the split in our views. It can be seen in a number of historical references. I remember reading about the villages and towns of Nova Scotia. It was said that in villages where the Baptist or Methodist churches were strong they never had many sporting events whereas if you had a lot of Anglicans sport flourished. It can also be said that the Irish Catholics introduced many phases of sport into Canada. They came from Boston to St. Michaels' College and the University of Ottawa and gave Canadian sport its biggest boost in the 1880's and 1890's. Several players from the St. Michaels' College baseball team went right into the professional leagues. One of Canada's first wealthy men, a Torontonian,
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council was the only Canadian I know of who ever owned a major league baseball team. Unfortunately it was the New York Yankees in the days before they were the New York Yankees so he did not do very well.
To come back to the contribution of the Irish Catholics, not only do we see it in the United States in the case of universities like Notre Dame but we can also see it in Canada in the case of St. Michaels' College. In contrast, I was intrigued by a book issued about 1905 having to do with French Canadian athletes and heroes. There was only one person mentioned who played a team game. That was Nap Lajoie, a resident of the United States of French Canadian origin. Mention was made of strong men such as Louis Cyr or strong women or boxers or wrestlers which indicated that for many years French Canadians stayed away from team games. They were never encouraged to go into them. Their basic physical strength and prowess at sport and at hard work led them into the weight lifting and wrestling fields. From about 1910 on you can see the beginning of French Canadian names creeping more and more into lacrosse and hockey line-ups until today, as all hon. members know, some of us from Ontario feel that they rather dominate the game of hockey.
Contributions have been made by other national groups. If any of you come from Kitchener you will be aware of what the Germans gave to Canada through gymnastics and the turnerbunds they introduced. The Caledonian games, which have been taking place in Ontario for seventy to eighty years, have been to a greater or lesser degree a contribution to athletics and to the development of strength in tossing the caber. I feel that such contributions have meant a great deal to the colour and tone of Canadian life. The Guelph Maple Leafs, for example, put Guelph on the map long before George Drew entered the house as leader of the opposition. Away back in the 1870's the Guelph Maple Leafs were North American baseball champions.
I am giving a number of these examples to try to show that sport has always been a very large part of the Canadian social life and social scene. Within two years of confederation two teams raised enough money through personal subscriptions to make tours of England in order to play cricket and lacrosse. Throughout the 1880's and 1890's and up to the advent of professionalism almost every year some team of some kind or other went over to Great Britain or down into the United States to demonstrate their prowess.
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Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council From the reading I have done I cannot remember, however, that there were ever any demands that these teams be supported by the government.
Some of you must remember the discussion last year when Great Britain challenged the United States for the American cup. It was mentioned that Canada had twice done so. In 1873 the ship, Countess of Dufferin, named for the wife of the governor general at that time, entered the race and made a very poor showing, such a showing that editorials were written in all Canadian newspapers lamenting this disgrace, but in none of these editorials was there any demand that the government should step in and put up a sum of money in order to produce a better boat.
The very fact that such a resolution as this is introduced by a member of a party that has "Conservative" in its title throws some light upon the changing times. While we know that the hon. member introduced certain caveats about not letting the state go too far, in effect what he is asking for was subsidization, even for his own beautiful city of Vancouver so that they can put on a big show. This puts us over a watershed of some kind or other. I hope that if members of his party speak in support of the resolution and later vote for it they will realize that their claim to the title "Conservative" is going to go by the boards.
There is one authority in Canada today to whom I should like to refer. At least, I feel he is an authority although he has been much maligned. I refer to Lloyd Percival who made sports college very well known. A number of years ago I took up with him the question of what he thought we should do in the international field. I asked him this question:
What ideas or opinions have you on the efforts Canada should make in the field of international sport, for example, at the Olympic games?
His answer was:
I believe that if Canada is going to take part in national sport especially at the Olympic games and British Empire games that the country should make an organized effort to develop adequate representation.
By adequate, I mean both in ability and attitude. The first step it seems to me is to develop an Olympic awareness amongst our youth. Here in Canada there are only comparatively few who ever think in their youth of the great honour of representing their country at the Olympic games. In other countries this is a major job to a large proportion of the athletic population. Following this, of course, there must be developed a scheme for improved coaching and facilities. This could well be the subject for a book.
Later on, I asked him this:
If Canada should make a planned and serious try for international laurels in Olympic events, do you think government sponsorship is necessary, in whole or in part?

The answer was:
Yes, I believe that government sponsorship is very necessary if Canada is to do anything about improving our international reputation in athletics. I believe a development committee should be set up to handle the financial support provided by the government. On this development committee should be representatives from all those activities concerned.
Now, when I suggested that I would give partial support to this resolution, I meant in this particular field of athletics only and not that I felt any team games, like hockey or football, should be given support. No such team in Canada at the present time deserves any government support for its present activities. When I think of the Belleville McFarlands going to Britain and touring Europe under the tender guidance of that British bandit Bunny Ahearne, I lose sympathy for them. I lived for several years in England and I associated with hockey players there. My sympathy for the Belleville McFarlands went out the window because I know that the Canadian amateur hockey association

do they still claim to be amateurs?; I am not sure because I have lost track of these things-has a good deal of money in the bank and can do fairly well in its organizational aspects in the playoffs toward getting money for this sort of thing. If they are the national governing body that supports hockey in this country, then surely it is their responsibility to send a representative team abroad.
It is easy enough to say that the Russians are in effect pros, supported by the government. What is wrong with that? Our sham amateurs cannot say there is anything wrong with it. However, in this particular regard, I feel this is one of the phases that no government should be called upon to support. The same remarks will apply to almost any other team game of which one can think.
One of the reasons why professionalism has tended to destroy Canada's participation in international athletic events is that it offers very glistening opportunities to young people for this kind of hard work as compared to track and field events. One of the goals of most of the young men in the particular community from which I come is to become a professional hockey player. I believe there are 50 or 60 men from the lakehead community making a living in hockey at the present time. This incentive or this particular goal has led to a concentration by our young men who have athletic ability into this more rewarding field of sport. There is nothing wrong with that but it explains why we are not competing in international track and field events. They are not attractive enough to our young people.

One of the other reasons is that there is a social change taking place. Any teacher will tell you that we have backed down the male-female relationship to the ages of 12 and 13. I think anyone who has coached these team games realizes that a lot of boys begin to drop out of hockey or other team sports at 14 or 15. The boys find that the intensive activity which football or other sports demand, as well as the demands on their school time, do not comport very well with their social life when they are in the boy-girl stage. Sport is one of the things that suffers.
In relation to the National Physical Fitness Act, I may say that in 1954 the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) buried this act. As I remember from scanning through the debates that occurred there was no one from the Progressive Conservative party who stood up and tried to keep it going. I should like to point out some of the aims of that act to the hon. member who introduced this resolution. Section 4 of the act, subsection (b) says:
(b) encourage, develop and correlate all activities relating to physical development of the people through sports, athletic and other similar pursuits;
Some $225,000 annually was set aside by the federal government to be distributed to the provinces on a pro rata basis if they would undertake to use the money for the purposes set out in this act. The reason for the introduction of the act was that most Canadians were amazed and alarmed at the state of the physical fitness of our young people when they were called up for the armed services. As a consequence of that concern this act was passed. In the 10 years that the act was in force the full grant was never taken. As a matter of fact, only a couple of provinces, I believe British Columbia and Saskatchewan, took any real interest in it, although Nova Scotia and Ontario did make some efforts.
The point I should like to make with the hon. member is that we had a piece of legislation on the statute books for 10 years and it was allowed to die in this House of Commons without anyone defending it. This legislation, essentially, would have done exactly what the sponsor of this resolution wants. It seems to me that the passing away of this act should make us ask the question, is this the sort of field into which we want to go?
I cannot find a bit of information for which I was looking, Mr. Speaker, but it had to do with a statement made by Dr. W. C. Ross of Nova Scotia, who was one of the members of the national physical fitness council set up under this legislation that the Hon. Ian Mackenzie introduced during the war years.
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council Dr. Ross stressed almost the same thing that the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron) stressed, that we should be very careful in using federal funds to distinguish sharply between professionalism and amateurism. The very idea of an amateur is one who loves the sport or game and not the personal gain from it.
In the main, this legislation was really a tremendous failure. If you go across the country and talk to men who were active in physical education in the university faculties or in provincial health departments, I think you will find that they feel the government lost its enthusiasm for the act and the people seemed to lose their enthusiasm for it. There is another example of a particular act in the provincial field. The premier of Ontario introduced a community arena program with provincial subsidization. I think that across Ontario today many of these community arena projects are recognized as being relatively white elephants compared to the success that was hoped for them.
The conclusion to which anyone who is close to sport or has been close to it in any way must come is that it is a rather phony kind of atmosphere today in its higher levels. I have no particular complaint and I do not think any member of this house has, but there is much more space and time in the writing field devoted to covering professional hockey and football than to say professional politics. This happens to be the situation and the emphasis has always been intensifying on the personality, on the big hero.
In recent years we seem to have lost the conception of a game as something that enabled us to lose ourselves, to escape from time, and by means of which we learned coordination and co-operation almost instinctively. The idea of the game itself being important has gone, and the emphasis now is on some Mr. Big who happens to score three goals or some pitcher who happens to have his arm in good shape or Mr. Bernie Faloney who happens to throw clusters of successful passes in a day. You no longer get the emphasis upon the game as the thing in itself.
I do not particularly regret this tendency but a concentration that focuses publicity upon the big-timers in any particular sport again undermines the whole idea of amateur games and any sort of efforts on a national and an international level in the fields such as track and field that do not bring in the rewards. I think many hon. members have noticed the pressures that the sensational Australian Herb Elliott has been under to get him to turn professional. There is the promoter
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Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council always ready to try to cash in, even in this field, on exceptional talents.
Our United States friends, despite what was read by the hon. member who introduced this resolution, have not really gone as far as he would have suggested in supporting international competition. There has been tremendous demand for such aid to sport and wherever there has been any kind of loophole they have tended to use that loophole. But in the main the United States has ignored it, as any hon. members who have read Avery Brundage will have found out. He has been the leading figure in the United States Olympic program. The Americans have never really had substantial government support. I would put this up to the Progressive Conservative member. One of the reasons they have not had it is that they felt it introduced a conflict between the conception they tend to talk so much about, namely free enterprise, and sport they feel would suffer if it had government subsidies.
In closing my remarks I wanted at least to give them a slight humorous pitch. I wanted to read something written about 350 years ago about the virtue of a certain game, namely the game of football. While it has its humorous aspect, I think it is still one of the fundamental reasons why we should be interested in cultivating sport on a much more common denominator, that is on a mass basis. This was written by an Elizabethan educationist, Richard Mulcaster, and he said this:
If well played . . . football strengthened and brawneth the whole body and by provoking superfluities downward, it dischargeth the head, and upper partes, it is good for the bowells and to drive down the stone and graven from both the bladder and kidnies. It helpeth weak hammes, by much moving . . . thickening the flesh no lesse than riding doth.
Three hundred and fifty years ago this educator could see the value of football. I want to contrast that particular point of view with another quotation written by a modern-day psychoanalyst who looked at the sport of football as a psychoanalyst. He said:
-in psychoanalytic language the football will be for the rugby enthusiast the symbol of maternal images, objects of love; for the soccer player, a symbol of paternal virility which is not a little awesome and demands special forms of taboo or control.
We get into by-channels of this kind today when we begin to analyse sport too closely. There are thousands of books turned out by Americans within the last few years about this social phenomenon of sport, the whole idea of mass sport.
In closing, I should like to indicate to the hon. member who introduced this resolution the idea that there is a confusion in his mind
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as to what he really wants in terms of government support. I do not think he really wants our government supporting teams to go abroad or to take part in activities with our American friends or even within the country, who are able to charge at the gate and get any kind of return, or in other words who can put their operations on a professional basis.
Harold Edward Winch: Read the resolution. It refers to amateur sport definitely.


Douglas Mason Fisher: My colleague has referred me to the word "amateur". I should like him to define that word "amateur". We have a Canadian hockey association which is amateur and yet almost all the players in it are professional, that is once you get up to the junior level. The whole question of amateur versus professional was talked out in Canada from about 1910 to the 1930's when a sort of Victorian purity began to operate in matters of athletics and we had people banned from playing. If they were professional football players they were not allowed to play amateur hockey and so on. Hon. members will all recall that the famous cult of amateurism really developed out of English rowing activities where an amateur was defined as someone who did not work with his hands. One Canadian who went over to England and challenged in the field of rowing was not given the opportunity to compete because he worked with his hands. The same thing happened to the United States rower, a man by the name of Kelly, who I believe has some offspring now, a princess in Monaco.
But in defending myself from this charge of not reading the resolution addressed to me by my compatriot here, I have wandered somewhat away from the topic under discussion. I should just like to say that I would not support the resolution although parts of it are fairly good. I think the intention all the way through perhaps has been good. However, I would abstain from voting.


Frederick Coles Stinson: Mr. Speaker, in rising to participate in this debate I would first congratulate the mover of this resolution, the hon. member for Van-couver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor), on the initiative he has shown in bringing this resolution before us, the hard work which he has done in preparing the address which was delivered today and also on the contribution which that hon. gentleman has made over the years to Canadian sport. In this past 18 months I have had the privilege of being deskmate and roommate of the hon. member

for Vancouver-Burrard and I know something of his sincerity in this matter of promoting athletics in Canada. I would also refer at this time to the father of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, namely Mr. Fred "Cyclone" Taylor whose name when I was a child was a household word in sports-minded households, and who will go down in history as one of the great Canadian athletes of all time.
I was pleased that the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) concluded what he had to say with what he termed a slight humorous pitch. In my view there is nothing at all humorous about the references which he made near the beginning of his address to two Canadian citizens who have contributed so much to the game of hockey in this country. Whether or not what he said about those people is true, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to him that it ill behooves a member of parliament to malign in the way he did two individual Canadian citizens who are not here and therefore are unable to reply to him. But on their behalf and, of course, without their authority, I respectfully suggest to him that what he said is completely untrue.
Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to what the hon. member had to say in his rambling address. In the very short time I have been here I have become quite fond of the hon. member for Port Arthur. I admire him as a distinguished teacher and a conscientious member of parliament. But I must say that I had some difficulty half way through his speech in trying to decide whether or not he supported this resolution. It seemed to him a bad thing that Conservative members would be bold enough to suggest that sport be subsidized in the way it is proposed this Canada sports council be supported by federal funds. It seems to me that the hon. member really failed to hear what the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard had to say because, in essence, what he proposed was modest federal government support in a financial way of athletics in this country with a view to raising the standards of athletic achievement, and with a view to giving financial support to meet the expenses of amateur Canadians competing in international competition abroad. That is the essence of this resolution, as I understand it, and that is the resolution which I hope all hon. members will support at the conclusion of this debate.
Mr. Speaker, during these past few days when this resolution has been under discussion around the House of Commons I have been impressed by the unanimous support which it has attracted on all sides of the house. I am hoping that later today we will
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council hear from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) who, according to legend, was a semi-professional ball player at one time, and who is still seen at least once a year playing ball on the lawn of parliament hill.
It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that federal action of the kind the hon. member has proposed is something we should support for very good reasons. I think there is growing circumstantial evidence that Canadians generally are less physically fit than people in many other countries. I say "circumstantial evidence", because there have been no adequate tests carried out by competent people across the nation upon which we could come to a definite conclusion in this regard. However, as I say, there is evidence that Canadians generally are less physically fit than many people from other countries both in Europe and Asia. I think one piece of evidence is that, with isolated exceptions, Canadians have a bad record in international competition. At the last Olympic games in 1956 Canada, in unofficial standings, finished seventeenth, behind such small countries as Hungary, Korea and Iran. It seems to me that in a country endowed as this one is with great resources, a standard of living second only to that of the United States, with magnificent climate, and so many other physical amenities, it is simply a national disgrace that in 1956 we send a team to the Olympics which winds up seventeenth. I also say it is a national disgrace that up until this time there has been so little done on the part of the parliament of Canada to promote, sponsor and assist our athletes who compete in international competitions.
Of course, there have been exceptions to this general rule. Percy Williams, the famous sprinter, first brought renown to Canada in his success in the 1928 Olympics. Barbara Ann Scott, Marlene Stewart Streit, Doug Hepburn of Vancouver, Barbara Wagner, Bob Paul of Toronto and Ann Heggtveit of this city, all of these great athletes have brought honour to Canada, in many cases in spite of the lack of encouragement and support from any government in this country.
Mr. Speaker, there are many examples of Canadians going to the Olympics and other international athletic games ill prepared and ill equipped. I happen to know something about the team that represented Canada in yachting in the last two Olympic games, and I am told that when our sailors got there in the 1948 games, in the Star class they found their gear, equipment and boat were just not really fit to compete successfully against the equipment and yachts that the European and other competitors had. Notwithstanding this lack of financial support, the yachting fraternity in this country have been busy

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council since 1956 promoting the sport and raising money on their own. In this connection much credit lor the success which I am sure we are going to have at the next Olympics in yachting must go to Ray Engholm, president of the Canadian yachting association, Bill Gooderham, who will probably compete for Canada at the next Olympic games, and Paul Phelan, the vice-president for Ontario of the Canadian yachting association.
Mr. Speaker, another fact which indicates that Canadians are less physically fit than the people in other parts of the world is the high rate of rejections for the armed services. Figures in this regard are not available in this country, but studies of rejections for the armed services of the United States indicate that there is a higher rate in the services of that country than in European armies. I suggest that social and economic conditions in the United States are very similar to those which obtain in this country, and therefore a similar condition exists here. There have been many accurate and authentic studies made in the United States in this field. In 1955 it was reported to the President of the United States by the sports governing bodies of that country that 78.3 per cent of children tested-and they tested a sample of American children-could not pass the minimum muscular fitness test which is used in testing patients before they are discharged from physiotherapy clinics. Of a comparable group of European children who were tested, only 8.5 per cent failed to qualify.
A further little piece of evidence came to light recently in the report of the director of programs for the girl scouts of America who reported that in her opinion American girls do not have the same energy for hiking or folk dancing or other similar athletic endeavours as do European girls of the same age. I think the reason for this state of affairs in this country and in the United States is quite obvious. In North America we are becoming soft and flabby. We seldom think of walking; we always drive. Last night I attended a cocktail party in Toronto, and three people who came from a house not seven houses away from the place where this party was being held drove their cars to the party.
We have become, or we are fast becoming, it is fair to say, a nation of spectators instead of participants-and how soon this unfortunate characteristic becomes evident to us. On Sunday morning I walked into my living room at nine o'clock and there were three bodies-the bodies of my three children-on the floor watching the television, and only the most severe kind of prodding could get them out of the living room and on their way to Sunday school at ten o'clock. I must say

in their defence that one of them is a hockey player, when he is not watching television, playing for two teams; the other is a swimmer and the third, I hope, will be a politician.


Mr. Pearson:: Three sportsmen.


Harold Edward Winch: Out of order: that is not an amateur sport.


Frederick Coles Stinson: Another interesting condition of affairs is that it is no longer fashionable in this country-and everybody these days tries to do the things that are fashionable- to engage in sports which require great stamina and endurance. I think hon. members will find that very few people after they have passed the age of adolescence become seriously interested in personal participation in track and field athletic activities, for instance.
The advantages of raising the physical fitness of Canadians are of course quite plain. People who are healthy, fit and vigorous work better and think better. With increasing standards of physical health fewer people will go to hospital and more will be able to remain full time at their daily work. The loss of earnings attributable to sickness in this country must be truly fantastic, to say nothing of the anguish and concern which is caused in a family when the head of a family is ill and unable to work. It is quite obvious, also, that athletic programs could help children by preventing them from joining street gangs or seeking cheap thrills and belonging to that well known class of adolescents called juvenile delinquents.
There is a further reason I would put forward for supporting this resolution, and it is this; there is no doubt at all that success in athletics and games would add greatly to our national prestige abroad. There is little doubt in my mind that the peoples of Asia and eastern Europe must be disappointed in this country when their athletes go to international athletic contests and find Canadians doing as poorly as they have done in recent international events. The peoples of those countries respect and admire physical vigour, endurance, stamina and athletic excellence.
So, Mr. Speaker, it is with great enthusiasm that I support the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard. In my opinion the council should be comprised of some 25 people appointed by the governor in council, one from each of the 25 sports governing bodies in Canada. I suggest that initially this body should be supported by a federal government grant of $100,000 a year. The national ballet is now receiving from the Canada Council an annual grant of $75,000, and if the taxpayers of this country can pay $75,000 to the ballet-a payment

which, by the way, I believe to be justified -then surely $100,000 a year could be found for sport. I hope that one of the functions of this sports council would be to encourage benefactions from citizens and sports minded people across the country. I hope that people would be encouraged to leave bequests to this council and that it would also receive donations from amateur and professional athletic organizations. It seems to me that this council could play a large part in raising the physical fitness of the Canadian people, in co-ordinating the activities of the sports governing bodies of Canada and in promoting the participation of Canadian teams in international competitions. I hope all members of this house will approve this resolution and, on its being passed, will have some part to play in helping the Canada sports council to become a successful agency of the government.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I should make my position very clear at the outset as far as this motion is concerned. I support it 100 per cent. I think it is an excellent motion, and it should not only receive the support of all hon. members but everyone should, in his own conscience, decide that it is not going to be talked out tonight but that it shall come to a vote. For this reason I do not intend to speak at great length.
Along with other hon. members I listened with a great deal of respect to some of the opinions expressed by my colleague from Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher), but I think this is one of the occasions when we can agree in principle but differ with respect to application. As far as I am concerned I take the view that whether a person is wealthy or a pauper he needs good health. Whether he is subnormal in intelligence or a genius he cannot go very far without good health. It is a matter of the utmost importance to all of us here, as legislators in the national field, that the people of this country should be as healthy as it is possible for them to be. I know very well that a few years ago we enacted the federal physical act. It had a short life and therefore an early death. But that does not detract from the fact that it was a good idea.
If in the history of mankind when a new idea apparently died we did not try to reincarnate it, reestablish it and resuscitate it we would be back in the age of barbarism. When a good and fresh idea unfortunately fails that does not deter us trying to revive the basic principle and underlying thought perhaps in some new form. The physical fitness program inaugurated by the federal government several years ago represented
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council a valid idea which should be revived. The basic principle and the thinking behind the resolution we have before us today is to do something for the physical fitness of the people of this country.
In the province of British Columbia only a few years ago a wonderful experiment in the field of physical fitness was introduced under the brilliant leadership of the Hon.
G.	M. Weir and the Hon. George Pearson. We had established there a challenging program of physical fitness under which thousands of children and adults in the province received training in gymnastics and physical culture under supervision. It is one of the most marvelous programs in this field about which I have heard. For some reason I do not understand the present government of British Columbia discontinued the program which was a disgraceful action. The program was so good that the governments of Australia and New Zealand sent observers to study it. It is my hope that the spirit of the resolution before us will come into reality in the establishment of a council such as is suggested which will set up a minimum basis of physical education and amateur sport activity.
We in this group supported the establishment of the Canada Council for culture in the arts which was a good measure but having such a council cannot mean very much if people have not the state of good health to permit their taking advantage of it. I therefore believe that the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (M. Taylor) is the necessary adjunct, corollary or partner to the Canada Council for culture in the arts. If the Canadian parliament was prepared to establish and finance a council for culture in the arts there can be no reasonable argument against establishing and financing a council for physical fitness and amateur sports. If you support the one you must support the other.
I believe there is another important aspect of this question. The position of Canada must be defined with respect to sending our basketball, football, hockey, swimming and other contestants to international meets. Every time a Canadian team is about to go abroad the sponsor must practically get down on his hands and knees to beg from individuals and companies sufficient moneys to finance the trip. Scarcely a day or week goes by but that businessmen, corporations and members of parliament receive requests for money and if you do not kick through you are a dirty you-know-what. That is not good for morale in sports or for the morale of the contestants. I am not going to mention names but I shall give an illustration.
Mention has been made of a team that did a good job of competing at a sports event
1052	HOUSE OF
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council in South America. Just a few days before the team was scheduled to leave they were uncertain about whether they could go because they did not have enough money. Somehow the money was scraped together and the team did a splendid job representing Canada, not only in terms of sports but in terms of public relations. I do not know about you, Mr. Speaker, but last week I received a letter from the sponsor of that team. There are 265 members of the House of Commons and apparently only one hon. gentleman sent in a contribution and I, of course, was one of the 264 that had not donated. The sponsor was to reward the one who had donated with a set of diamond cuff links but the attitude suggested that the other 264 were just no good. I can only say that you cannot answer every appeal because it is impossible. It is a shame that our amateur sports and international competitions must be carried on under those circumstances which are degrading to the team and to the people as a whole. It is not good for the morale of the team not to know until the last minute whether or not they can represent Canada and compete in our behalf.
I believe we should give thought, not only to the training and financing of athletes in Canada but also to methods of financing them as Canadian representatives when they leave our shores to represent this country not only as athletes but as public relations men and women. I know there will be many problems to be ironed out as there always are but these can be taken care of once the basic principles as envisaged in this resolution are made the law of the land. I intend to conclude my remarks in the way I started by saying that this resolution has my 100 per cent support and I hope it comes to a vote and is not talked out.


Mr. O. W. Weichel (Waterloo North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) for his fine speech. I am very happy to see his well-known father in the gallery.
Today's youth, our most precious heritage, are striving for things in life that appear most important to them and which will eventually bring success in future years. My connections with sports for over 35 years and my overseas and other experience in this old world of ours have given me much food for thought. I sincerely believe that the three greatest assets of our youth would be Christian training, education and recreation. Give me the boy or girl who will combine those three and I am sure we would never have to worry about juvenile delinquency.
[Mr. Winch.)

Speaking today in support of the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard I should like to relate my remarks to one of these great assets, recreation. Recreation builds healthy bodies and minds. Indeed, it benefits the physical and mental development of those participating. Last but not least, it provides good sportsmanship, fellowship and friendship and perhaps the greatest of these would be friendship.
The poem, "Making Friends", supports my statement:
Life is sweet not because of the things we do
But the things in common we share.
We want to live on not because of ourselves
But because of the people who care.
It's giving and doing for somebody else.
On that all life's splendour depends.
For the joy of the world when you've summed it all up
Is found in the making of friends.
I believe that the boy or girl who participates in some form of recreation will become a better citizen of this great country of ours. The fine assistance of many organizations, including the Canadian sports advisory council, the Canadian amateur hockey association, the Canadian Legion with its youth training plan, in an effort to upgrade the standard of Canadian track and field athletics and the individual efforts of our coaches, managers and executive members have given our youth greater opportunities in recreational participation. Through the efforts of many sports minded citizens, arenas, community centres and stadiums have been built almost overnight.
The value of these buildings cannot be estimated in dollars and cents. Yes, I know that some people will argue that the cost of these structures is prohibitive and the upkeep too great, but I sincerely believe that if we can keep one boy from going to Guelph reformatory or some similar institution the investment is more than worth while because, after all, that boy could be your boy or mine. Today it costs about $150 to equip a boy for most sports, but let me bring to your attention the fact that if that boy should go wrong it would cost $2,000 or more to send him to some penal institution.
In my remarks up to the present, Mr. Speaker, I have mentioned the value of recreation. I am sure that you will agree with me that there is a great need for a sports training program in the dominion of Canada on a national scale in order that we can compete favourably with other countries. Sports organizations throughout our country have dedicated their time and effort toward this great cause but lack of finances have stifled their efforts. Government financial

assistance, along with the outstanding spirit of these organizations and individuals, could bring splendid results.
Since I spoke in parliament recently on government assistance to sports and hinted that possibly a ministry of sports and athletic development might be the answer, I have been assured of the wholehearted support of many sports leaders. While the press has greeted the idea with mixed feelings, everything indicates that the mass of the people who are involved in sports in any capacity are in favour of the idea in principle. Working out details is a problem but certainly not an insurmountable one. Whether this proposed assistance to sports should come through a ministry or a department of an existing ministry is really not important. Getting something done is the big thing.
Shortly after my recent speech in the house went out to the newspapers across Canada the sports leaders of my home riding lined up solidly behind my suggestions in comments made to the Kitchener-Waterloo Record. Oscar Wiles, club president of the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen, who will represent Canada at the 1960 Olympic games at Squaw Valley in California, said:
A Canadian representative team should get financial backing from government sources.
Mr. B. F. Kearns, twin city sportsman, active in many fields, said:
We discussed this very matter of government support of athletics with members of the United States Olympic committee in Cortina in 1956. We were firmly convinced that government support of athletics is a necessity. It is vital to the health and welfare of the country and it is obvious that because of our government's views we're getting farther down the athletic ladder every year and taking a back seat to countries with a more vigorous approach to athletics.
Bob Cardy, president of the Kitchener sports association, pointed out that each year Canada drops members from its Olympic team because of financial curbs. He asks, how can we hope to develop if curbed this way? Mr. R. A. Echlan, a leader in Canadian track and field circles, said:
Interested amateur sportsmen have to spend so much time thinking up schemes to raise money that they have little time left to coach.
One of the biggest boosts came from Waterloo county magistrate J. R. H. Kirkpatrick, a strong enthusiast for minor sports and youth in our community. These are his words:
A ministry of sports could encourage a return to mass participation in sports for the development
of sound minds, good character, strong healthy bodies, and not for the acquisition of the almighty dollar.
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
He goes on to say:
Russia's emergence as an athletic nation is viewed with concern because of the championships gained by her teams and records broken by her athletes. Too little credit is being given to Russia's program which encourages participation in amateur sports. We propose to meet this competition with money. It should be apparent that real enthusiam for sports and athletic proficiency will be instilled in tomorrow's spectators by encouraging them to participate today and through a cultivation of admiration for the amateur athlete, not through the purchase of a television set or tickets to professional exhibitions. Money will flow into the coffers of Olympic committees after we have created a nation of sports loving people who hold the true amateur sportsman in higher esteem than the paid performer.
Mr. Kemp Thompson, editorial writer for the Kitchener-Waterloo Record, had this to say with reference to my maiden speech:
Mr. Weichel refers to the millions spent annually on cultural development as part of his argument for support of sport. This was placing the question in true perspective for the fields are really closely allied in so far as government policy is concerned. A sound mind in a sound body, that famous saying links culture and athletics and also applies nationally. Certainly If a healthy and coherent picture of Canada is to be projected before the world national support for both is justified.
Mr. Ewan Cameron, deputy chief of police of Kitchener, a man who is very interested in our youth and is doing splendid work along with others in the sponsoring of 500 boys in the Kitchener police association, had this to say:
I am one of the many thousands of Canadians whose interest and admiration has been aroused due to your well taken point and submission to the Canadian parliament concerning amateur sports and the appointment of a ministry which would give direction and, what is more important, added dignity to amateur sports. Surely we should exploit to the utmost the value of properly supervised sports as a medium to teach young people the art of living in a very complicated society and to accept that which they cannot change or understand. How could one have thought of a finer way to emphasize the importance of physical fitness? And what is a more normal avenue to physical fitness than sports activities?
Miss Marlene Lichte of Kitchener, one of Kitchener's accomplished figure skaters, said:
The federal government should set up a fund like Russia which subsidizes athletes with living expenses.
Miss Mary McGrail of Ottawa, one of the promising figure skaters in this city, made this statement:
Because of lack of funds many top-ranking athletes are forced to withdraw from international competition and are replaced by those of lesser ability who will not represent their country as creditably.
She goes on to say:
For the forthcoming world skating championships In Colorado Springs, the Canadian figure skating association is giving each competitor $200 to help pay expenses.

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
I guess lather pays the rest. Then, Mr. D. W. Connor of Montreal, president of the Canadian amateur bobsleigh and tobogganing association and former world champion of this sport, who was elected to the Canadian athletic hall of fame, wrote the following:
I was very interested to read in the press your statement in the House of Commons on January 20 regarding the establishment of a "ministry of sports and athletic development". The establishment of such a ministry is an excellent idea and I congratulate you for initiating it. During January we sent a four-man bobsleigh team to St. Moritz, Switzerland, to represent Canada in the world championship being held there this month. I personally financed the larger part of this trip.
May I emphasize that?
I personally financed the larger part of this trip. Although the outside world looks to us as one of the prime winter sports countries, this is the first time that Canada has been officially represented in the world bobsleigh championship.
I agree with you that we spend vast sums of money on many overseas projects and yet athletic organizations which go abroad to represent Canada and to bring honour to it must beg for their own funds or finance themselves.
In a recent Canadian Press poll over 80 per cent of the sport writers and sportcasters were in favour of some form of government aid to Canadian athletes. The idea of a Canadian sport and athletic development ministry may seem repugnant to some, and if it does why not attack the problem through the creation of some group to administer the income from a fund? It could be done in the same way as the Canada council doles out money for culture. This council or group, perhaps operating along the line suggested by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard, might be given the income from a certain grant by the government, to be used nationally all across the country for things like minor hockey and football, to provide funds to conduct coaching classes, to pay the costs of Canadian teams competing in world events upon proper application. Adequate coaching demonstrations should be utilized to create better coaching, more participation and to remove the plan from the cloud level of theory and bring it down to the working level.
Some funds from the government might also be used to build stadia and other facilities at strategic points throughout Canada. In Ontario, for instance, the lack of stadia for track and field meets is marked. There are only a half-dozen in the province and few of them are first line. The emphasis should be on participation, coaching and supervision in that order. Grants to national teams will aid in all those three aspects,
[Mr. Weichel.I
since the great amount of time spent in raising funds could be devoted to other things.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to lend my whole-hearted support to our government's entry into the field of financial assistance to sports in Canada, whether that assistance comes through a ministry of sports as I have suggested or through a council set-up envisioned by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard. This is really only a matter of detail at this point. What is important is that now is the time when something should be done. Our sports program, with government asistance could be on the threshold of developing a country of solid young Canadians who could be worthy challengers of teams from any country and in any field.


Mr. W. F. Matthews (Nanaimo):: Mr. Speaker, in speaking on this particular motion moved by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor), I cannot help but take advantage of the opportunity to speak in a little different vein from that of most other members who have participated in the debate thus far. It has been very interesting to listen to the debate, and I have enjoyed the contributions of the various members. However, I should like to offer some remarks upon the subject from a different slant. In order to do so and to fully cover the field of sport and its importance to the survival of a nation, it is necessary to start with the early history of Rome.
In the early days of Roman history we read there was no system of public education. All instructions given to the Roman youth were given by the father to the son. This instruction consisted of training in the manly sports such as running, swimming, boxing, wrestling and the use of arms. There was also practical training in agricultural pursuits. They were taught a knowledge of the traditions of the state and the legends of Roman heroes. The son was given instructions in habits of cleanliness and good conduct. At 18 the young Roman entered military service where he was taught discipline and respect for authority, a very important thing.
The downfall of Rome started when the simple life gave way to high living and extravagance. There was vigorous opposition from the champions of the old simple life, but the Roman civilization continued to decay. The rich citizens who controlled Rome had their luxuries, and they had their summer homes just as we do today. It may be said that just as corruption characterized the public life of Rome, so did extravagance and a life of luxury characterize the well-to-do. Some 320,000 male citizens were receiving the dole, free bread, and their votes were

courted by free passes to the coliseum. In other words, in those days there was political bribery occurring.
Between 96 A.D. and 180 A.D. the Roman empire reached its peak in territorial expansion, population and material prosperity. The fall of Rome is no great mystery. Rome became a spectator nation. As we read history we find that they became fat and lazy. They depended on the dole, and in many ways the rich engaged only in spectator sports. They built large coliseums in which these sports events were presented. In 186 B.C. they had a wild beast hunt, and the first exhibition of the gladiators was given at a funeral in 264 B.C. Then, as the hunger of the Roman people for blood grew, they started pitting men against beasts in the arena, about which we all read no doubt in school.
As these types of exhibitions became popular, they exercised a brutalizing effect on the spectators. The Roman people, as we know, reached the point where they scorned the obvious lessons from the history of Greece. The Greeks, of course, were tremendous sport enthusiasts. They used sport as a means of building up their youth. As the Romans became rich and lazy, they scorned these activities and they became prey to other nations.
Now, going on a little farther in history we find that the greatest conquests of all were those of Genghis Khan. Genghis was tall, vigorous and had a strong build and constitution at the age of 56. This may interest some people. He believed in doing things in moderation. His favourite pleasures were polo and the chase. He never let drinking become a vice. He is alleged to have said that if you were unable to abstain from drinking, a man might get drunk three times a month. If he does it more than three times, he is criminal. If he gets drunk twice a month, it is better; if once a month, that is still more laudable. If one does not drink at all, what could be better. If such a man were found, he would be worthy of the highest esteem.
Today we heard one hon. member mention television and refer to the fact that his youngsters, instead of being interested in going out and engaging in sports would lie on the floor and watch television. After reading the history of the mighty Khan, I would say that he would throw every television set out of his country because he certainly would never allow anything to interfere with the health of his nation. As you know, the Mongolian nation was responsible for the greatest conquests, even greater than those of Alexander the Great. The most tremendous conquests ever known in history were made under this famous Khan.
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
The youngsters of this nation were taught to ride at the age of three, when their mothers tied them to the saddle. They were given a bow and arrow-probably a small one-at the age of four. They were encouraged to go hunting, as much time as possible spent on horseback; and even before then they were given regular bows and arrows and taught to shoot at targets.
It is an interesting thing to note that the bow used by a Mongol warrior required a pull of 166 pounds. That is considerably more than the English bow. Nowadays if you go to buy a bow the average pull or weight that you would ask for in a bow would be from 35 pounds to 40 pounds. Some of the stronger men use one nowadays with a pull of from 50 pounds to 60 pounds. The bows and arrows of today are effective from 25 yards to 50 yards. We have quite a difference there. Our strongest bow would be 60 yards. These Mongols pulled a bow that required 166 pounds of pull and they were destructive at a range from 200 yards to 300 yards. There is a tremendous difference. They were mighty bowmen. They lived on the range. Some of these Mongol warriors would sleep all night while their horses grazed. They were known to travel in two days 180 miles on horseback, which is a tremendous thing. These men were able to do these things because of sports.
Strange to say in those days the mighty Khan had rules of sportsmanship. There were certain rules in sportsmanship, certain things that were fair and certain ones that were not fair. It is a known fact, according to history, that some of these men who were poor sports lost their lives because of poor sportsmanship or in other words for not regarding the rules of sportsmanship. Fair play apparently was one of the big things in that day and it paid off in a considerable way.
It is said in history that while on a visit to Cathay the mighty Khan, before he sought to invest those countries, noticed the decay in the towns, noticed that people were interested in life only, in eating, drinking and enjoying themselves but not taking part in any type of sports at all. All the way through the history of that mighty conqueror we find that he was always outnumbered tremendously by the opposing army but that his strength lay in the fact that he had well-trained men of endurance, men who played games as a training.
They conquered Russia; they went into Russia. We find that Germany tried going into Russia in the winter. Back farther in history Napoleon went into Russia and tried to conquer Russia in winter time. We know

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council what happened there. However, according to history, the Mongols went into Russia in two winter campaigns and conquered Russia. That was a tremendous thing back in those days. One of the reasons for his success was that his men were up-to-date, strong and played at sports. Not until the year 1260 did his descendants begin to forget his ideas on sport and good health. Then the great Mongolian empire started to break up. The interesting point is that the Mongols owed much of their success to social and economic decay in the countries they attacked, or in other words the countries they conquered in a good many cases were in a state of decay.
We now come back to early Britain. Sports in early Britain built up a tremendous country; there is no getting away from that fact. We have heard it said that the battle of Waterloo was won on the fields of Eaton and that could be quite true. On examining sports we find a little different picture. In England in the early days the nobility engaged in various types of sports, in their tournaments and things like that, whereas the men in the ranks used the broad sword, the long bow and the cross bow. This was not true in many of the other countries of the time. The only people in the other countries who engaged in the hunt or in sport were the noblemen. Therefore, it goes without saying that the British armies in the early days were much stronger because sports were played within their ranks. In the navy we find in the olden times that the mighty Drake with the Spanish armada approaching, continued to play a game of bowls. It did not worry him that this mighty armada was coming. They would outnumber him but it did not bother him a bit for the simple reason that he knew that all the men on his boat had been trained in competition in sports. There were prizes and special issues of rum for gun crews which could run a gun out faster than the others. The man who could climb to the top of the mast the fastest would get a certain prize. There were even prizes for dancing the hornpipe and various things. These pursuits made them a free-wheeling, easy-going bunch of men in the navy of that time who had nothing to worry about. We know that in that age Britain had the whole world against her at various times but still was able to survive.
In world war I there is an interesting thing to be noted in connection with our war aces. I refer to the first four of them. I could name them but I think everyone here knows them. When you begin to look into the lives of these men you will find that they came from Manitoba, from British Columbia, and from Ontario, and that they were all experts in

sports. They played sports. Another interesting thing I find is that many of them were great at hunting. They were very handy with a shotgun and with a rifle; they were tremendous shots. Sports gave them this tremendous advantage. Our leading ace Bishop was a tremendous shot. His great ability in the air was due to his shooting more than to his flying, although he was a very good pilot. Owing to the fact that these men had played sports, they had nothing to worry about at all.
I was in the air force in world war I and I remember that every Wednesday at four o'clock we washed out and played games. It was considered to be important that we do so. Even at that time there was a demand for men. Our country was in a rather bad spot and was needing men trained. Instead of doing that, it was considered necessary that we wash out Wednesday afternoons and play games. We played baseball, hockey and various games to build up our abilities in order to be ready for the time when we went to war.
A few months after the war was over I was offered an opportunity to go to China to teach flying. A friend of mine by the name of Brown was flying at a school in China and he wanted me to go over and teach the Chinese to fly. I asked him at the time what kind of pupils the Chinese made. He said they were tremendous, but he said that the Japanese made their wills and kissed the family good-bye before they went up as they figured that fate had decided that they were through on that particular trip.
It is quite interesting to note that on Vancouver island an attempt was made to get a Jap in a camp there to run a big caterpillar tractor. The authorities could not find any of the Japs that could run it for the simple reason that none of them had played sports at anytime. This may not sound sensible but it is a fact. They were very much afraid of this tremendous monster of a "cat" and they could not master it. Finally at Union Bay they found a Jap boy and with a little bit of training they broke the Jap in on it. Finally it was found that the boy had played baseball on the Union Bay team, that he had played basketball up there and that he had taken part in sports to such an extent that he was better able than were the others to adapt himself to running this big "cat".
Another interesting thing we remember with regard to world war II is the fact that the Japanese air force made a tremendous name for Japan. Their pilots went in, I believe, and sank some of our topnotch boats. We know what they did at Pearl Harbor. They were men to be reckoned with.

The thought in the air force at that time was that the Japanese pilot was tremendous. However, when these pilots were killed off, we found that Japan's air force was nothing from then on. What happened was that all the pilots that had gone to the University of California, the University of Washington, the University of British Columbia, the University of Alberta, the University of Toronto, who played sports had been killed off, and they got back to the pilots who had not played various types of sports. That was the end in world war II of an effective Japanese air force.
Another point I want to make with regard to this motion which the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard has presented is this. The battle of Britain was another demonstration. Some of the participants have been members here. If you examined the background of a lot of these men you would find that they played sports. They were experts, and that made them second to none as pilots, and they held back the mighty German air force. I do not want to talk about war because I do not believe in wars. I have had enough, as we all have, of war, and I do not think we will be engaged in another war for years. I want to get away from that and talk a little bit about sports, and what it has to do with the people of today.
I was quite interested in a little clipping which I have here about Anne Heggtveit, the skier, who recently came back after doing such a tremendous job. Let me point out one or two things which I think are quite good. It says:
If the present situation isn't changed, she predicted "the top skiers in the world in the next six or eight years will be Russians and red Chinese, because their governments make it possible for them to ski full-time."
Anne started skiing at two and represented Canada in the world championship when only 15. That is what happened right along the line. I might say that somebody started her skiing at two. I would imagine it was her parents. It is very much like the Mongols fastening their youngsters on a horse at the age of three. I started my daughter skating at the age of three, and I believe it is a marvellous thing for her. This is a girl who has made a name for herself for the simple reason that her parents took an interest in her and felt that her health would be better if she went out and did skiing.
I also notice that these news reporters often sound a warning to us, and in saying that I mean they certainly are presenting a warning to Canada that we must make sure that people who are able to ski will get the backing.
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Another interesting newspaper warning which I have here is from the Peterborough Examiner, where Mr. Les Vipond said:
Life is too easy and we are more concerned with what we consume than in the development of a strong character. There is a danger of our becoming lazy and materialistic.
That is a warning from the newspapermen who watch these things very carefully. I have another one here from the Ottawa Journal for February 3:
The publication of sports literature in the Soviet union is growing. Last year the physical culture and sports publishing house put out 195 books in a total print of more than 7,500,000.
They have turned out 13,200 books dealing with sports. All down the line they are building up their country with sports. They have put rinks right across the whole of Russia. They have put in playgrounds, and they realize that to build up a nation it is necessary that sports become No. 1, and I believe it is almost No. 1 in their expenditures.
I would like to continue and talk of sports in peace-time. I have been very interested in this motion. Last year after the softball game we had a little meeting together in Hull, and I spoke at that meeting. In the room were Lester Patrick, the silver fox, Mr. Fred "Cyclone" Taylor, and various others, a lot of players from the House of Commons and from the protective staff. I remarked at that time that there should be a school of coaching instituted. We have not a good coaching school, and coaching is very important. I said at that time that it would be a wonderful thing if they could have a meeting of these men like "Cyclone" Taylor, Lester Patrick and all these famous hockey players, who could get together and discuss various types of defence, and so on, and it could be put down on the record. Dick Irwin is a very important man whose views on hockey coaching would be very valuable. I suggested at that time that departments should be set up and that something should be done for sports, because I believe in the importance of it in building up the youth of Canada.
I might say at this time that the father of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard is now 75 years old. He was born in Tara, Ontario, and I can well remember sitting in the rinks with the famous "Cyclone" Taylor when for the first time clocks came into being, and it disturbed the "Cyclone" so much to think that players could only go two minutes. He said to me, "In our days we wouldn't even look at the coach; we were 60-minute men," It is interesting to watch players these days when their two minutes is up, because away they go.
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The mounted police of Canada can do a tremendous job, and I know of some towns where the police do wonderful jobs as regards coaching. I would like to quote one case on Vancouver island, a policeman by the name of Bobby Ross. In this location where he was constable he taught sports. He was a baseball player and he taught sports to all the boys, and for all the years he was at this place there was never a record of any boy getting into trouble or doing anything wrong. The simple fact that he took an interest in them made it very important to them that they didn't let their coach down.
A lot has been said this afternoon about the cost of sports. Most hon. members here have put money into sports at some time or other, and they put it in hoping it will do good. They are glad to do it if they can spare the money, and their own personal satisfaction is reward enough. But I still think money could be set aside by our government to help sports for the good of Canada. I was quite interested in the story about Doug Peace, who lives in Ottawa. As a boy he had spinal meningitis and was not expected ever to be strong. But his father made him ride a bicycle, skate and play hockey, and he was built up to such an extent that he represented Canada at the Berlin Olympics in 1936 as a bicycle racer. There is a case where sports built a man up who formerly had been given up as not able to play any of these sports. Mr. Peace, Doug Peace as I like to call him, does a tremendous job now and is still active in sports in Canada. I know that every time Doug sells a bicycle or a pair of skates he has the feeling that he is building up Canada, because he went through it himself.
I, as a youngster, was very sick, and when I grew up I found out from my father's elder sister that the doctors would not even come to the house because they thought I would die. My dad in the early days took me out and made me play games, such as lacrosse, baseball and hockey, and he built me up. I knew nothing about this till about 25 years ago, when this lady told me all about it. I made up my mind then that I would do something about sports, and for the last 20 years I have coached sports and had a tremendous time doing it. It keeps me younger. Association with youth is a marvellous thing. I think coaching, and the volunteers who help out, are just as important as the people who donate the money. I could go on and on talking about sports for some time, but I know other hon. members want to speak on this very important bill. I know it is needed in Canada. I certainly will support any bill which will supply health to build


up the youth of Canada. It is very important to us. So I will close now to give some of the other boys whose stories are good a chance and who also know that the future of Canada depends on the youth of Canada.


Mr. Lee E. Grills (Hastings South):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on this bill I assure you that if I do not refrain from mentioning my own riding and its success in hockey it is not for any selfish reason but because I am in support of the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor).
While my remarks will be restricted to the game of hockey I think they apply equally to many other sports activities. As hon. members know, I am privileged to represent the riding of Hastings South which produced the Allan Cup winners of 1958 and the team which in winning that championship were made eligible to represent Canada in the world hockey championship in Europe at the present time. I refer, of course, to the Belleville McFarlands. When they left Canada for Europe we no longer thought of them as Belleville's team but as Canada's team. They are truly representing Canada, and I might say that at the moment on the front of their sweaters there is a maple leaf and the word "Canada" in large letters.
At this time I should like to bring hon. members up to date on the achievements of Canada's hockey team overseas, and I am sure it will cheer the hearts of all Canadians to know that since leaving Canada on February 1 they have played a total of eight games resulting in seven wins and one tie, or a total of 68 goals to 12. I consider this really an achievement to date. I only hope that Lady Luck stays with them, but regardless, knowing the team as I do, we will be proud of their efforts. This is a fine group of young Canadians. I may say I know most of them personally. One works in a shoe store where I have dealt, another in a garage and another for a construction company. Others work in many different walks of life. They are typical of good looking young athletes, typical Canadians.
I may say at this time I believe their achievements are being watched by people all around the globe, and when I refer to some of the difficulties they have had, I think they are an example of the difficulties which have been experienced by many different sports groups and associations throughout Canada. Most of these boys are married men with young families and they have made a great sacrifice in leaving Canada and going overseas, in leaving the responsibility for their families and wives, and I can assure hon.

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
members that there are many wives who are thinking of them while they are away.
I may say that early this year when they were preparing to go overseas and when it was first suggested that they should go overseas it was a touch and go proposition. The main difficulty was in raising funds and while the contributions of many hon. members of this house and Canadian citizens were very sincerely appreciated, if it had not been for the civic-minded citizens of Belleville and Mayor McFarland of Picton they would never have been able to make the move. I know there was considerable pressure put on these people in Belleville and on companies who had representatives throughout the country. One man in a humorous attitude told me it was almost blackmail, if you did not contribute to the Belleville McFarlands, the pressure that was put on. However, that was part of what was necessary to raise funds, and to this day there is still a considerable amount not covered.
It seems to me that this is entirely unnecessary. It should not have been necessary to have the begging that had to be done in the city of Belleville and district to make this possible. We want all Canadians to share in these achievements, and whatever glory that comes to the team we want all Canadians to share. Likewise, I think all Canadians should share in the responsibility. An encouraging letter, I must say, came from the office of the Rochester and Pittsburg Coal Company, Toronto where they took up a collection in the office and sent an accompanying letter to the effect that they wanted to be part of Canada's hockey team. They did not think it was Belleville's team, but Canada's team and they took up a collection throughout that office, and that is the support necessary to make our hockey achievement a success.
We all recognize that the new era of speedy travel has made all nations almost our next door neighbours. I am convinced that a great deal of international understanding and good will could be achieved through participation in international sport due partly to the fact that it brings us altogether on a common level without the interference of dollars and the hard business usually involved. Having said this, may I emphasize that it is our responsibility to deal with the difficulty of getting the support necessary from a small municipality such as ours and many others that are fortunate enough to produce hockey teams of this calibre.
May I call it six o'clock?
At six o'clock the house took recess.
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[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.
Lee Elgy Grills: Mr. Speaker, before the house rose at six o'clock I had mentioned in connection with the setting up of a Canada sports council the good will and understanding that could be achieved through international sports competitions and some of the difficulties that we face in this respect.
I read in a newspaper the other day a statement made by a free-skating champion to the effect that we do not realize that the Russians are using subsidized athletes who do nothing else but train for sports and when we send athletes to compete abroad it is like sending the boys to play against the men. We send the boys. If we are going to have our Canadian athletes compete in international sports competitions we must give them equal training and opportunity with other competing sportsmen. Let us not have the odds against our players when they leave. We expect a great deal from them so let us give them an equal chance with all others.
I should like to mention the contribution that participation in sports of all kinds makes to the training of young people and their future development. I am one who is convinced that there is no better way to fight juvenile delinquency and keep our boys and girls off the streets than to encourage them to participate in good sports and fair play which contribute to the leading of a clean life and the building of good citizens.
This proposed Canada sports council would be an authority to intercede and speak for Canada overseas as well as at home, and judging from some of the things that have taken place in Europe that would appear to be very necessary.
May I point out that even the outdoor rink has played an important part in the life of many of our Canadian athletes. Many of our outstanding hockey players first participated in games on outdoor rinks and they serve a very useful purpose. I am sure all hon. members would agree that any investment we make in our Canadian youth will surely pay rich dividends.
I well remember the occasion when the hockey team in my home town returned from that grand province of British Columbia after winning the Allen cup. The entire city and district, young and old-and especially the youngsters-came out to greet the returning team. The young people admire the team and hope to emulate them. We now look forward to ' ne time when our boys will come home from Europe with yet another victory and this time we know that all of Canada will extend a warm welcome to them.

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
I urge that every consideration be given to the establishment of a Canada sports council. I may explain that the reason I mentioned hockey in my illustration is that I have had close experience with the game in my own sports life and it is a popular sport in my riding, but the things I said about hockey in terms of it inspiring our young people to lead better lives apply equally to other sports.
For the benefit of those hon. members who were not in the house when I spoke earlier and to bring them up to date may I repeat that the Belleville hockey team left for Europe on February 1. They have played eight games and have come up with seven wins and one tie. We only hope that this outstanding record of achievement will continue and that all of Canada will welcome them with pride upon their return to Canadian shores.


Arthur Smith: Mr. Speaker, my first remarks, of course, must be words of congratulation to my friend, the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) who has introduced this resolution. As we are fully aware now, the hon. member has done a great deal of research into a subject which has been very close to him for many years. Despite the differences that we may have regarding details of the resolution I know that many hon. members in this house and certainly those who have spoken join with me in congratulating him on taking the lead in bringing to our attention at this time a resolution of this nature.
I debated however if I should comment about the fact of whether or not the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard should be congratulated on a recent sports event in which he was engaged for I understand that he served as captain to a rather unfortunate hockey team which was defeated-some 14 goals to 2-by the protective staff; but his inability to perform efficiently on the ice in no way detracts from his ability to offer to the Canadian people something of value in the nature of this resolution.
In discussing the proposal for the establishment of a Canada sports council I wish to make two points which I shall put in the form of questions. Should the Canada sports council be modelled on the Canada Council? What results could be obtained from this? Before amplifying these questions, I feel obliged to make some reference to the contribution to this debate made by the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) who this afternoon provided to the discussion what is generally termed as comic relief. Perhaps his contribution could also be described as humour, although it was humour
[Mr. Grills.)
of a low grade. I have no objection to humour of this kind but I feel it is unfortunate that any hon. member of this house should take it upon himself to be humorous at the expense of other people. Perhaps the one regret the hon. gentleman has is that his days in this chamber are numbered and his contribution to the Canadian scene will soon be forgotten whereas Canadian people will remember the contributions made to both professional and amateur sports fields by people who were the victims of his remarks long after the hon. member has returned to the honourable profession of teaching school. I should like to say to him that if he had any understanding of the contributions made by people like Smythe and Dutton not only to sports but to society as a whole he surely would not have been so willing to stick his neck out as he did because his remarks make him look even more ridiculous than usual and he has a capacity for this.
I do not intend to take any more time in referring to his comments nor shall I dignify his remarks by commenting further upon them, other than to say that I thought his most illuminating statement was to the effect that we have definitely passed the era when we once were able to get lost in sport. If anyone got lost it was the hon. gentleman who was so lost in his dissertation that he did not state whether or not he was opposed to this particular resolution or whether he would support it. And then he did not have the intestinal fortitude to do other than say he would abstain from voting.
I am now going on to discuss the proposed resolution in a constructive way and refer to those aspects of it which I consider of particular importance. I am certain that the hon. member who proposed the resolution will agree with me when I say that there is an area of weakness in it. He has already accepted that, and when the government eventually gives consideration to the matter from the point of view of putting something on the statute books of Canada they will have to take these shortcomings into account. The resolution is not intended as the whole answer but rather as a partial solution to a very difficult problem.
It should be emphasized that the resolution was not designed as the whole answer. It is not designed to make professional sports as such more professional. The debate so far has rather centred around the two principal sports of football and hockey. When we are talking about the varieties of athletic endeavours in which Canadians engage it must be kept in mind that we have a greater combination than any other country in the

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
world and there is participation by our young people on a wider basis than in any other country.
We hear a great deal, for example, about the plight, as it has been described by some of the old timers in hockey, of the young people who today play on the rinks of Canada. What we overlook is that today there are some 96,000 young Canadians registered with the Canadian amateur hockey association, 17,000 more than at any other time in our history. These young Canadians are taking advantage of the natural and artificial ice made available to them. As the country has changed in other ways so to a very large degree the participation of our people in sports has changed from bodily contact games to participation in such other pursuits as curling and golf, recreations which have no form of bodily contact whatsoever. I for one do not sit in judgment on the young people who have decided that their choice is to take part in such games. If they prefer to curl, play golf or take advantage of any other recreational pursuit of that type, that is a decision which I suggest we can leave to them.
Having said that, I should like to point out what I hope are certain advantages embodied in the resolution, but first of all perhaps I might deal with its shortcomings. This resolution has been modelled after that preceding the establishment of the Canada Council. The hon. member who introduced the resolution made it very clear that there should be the least possible amount of government control in legislation of this kind, and I agree with him. It is significant to note that 22 years ago a rather similar debate took place. At that time the then hon. member for Trinity introduced a resolution which read as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, in the interests of public health there should be established a ministry of sports.
At that time he could not obtain the support of his own colleagues, let alone other members of the house. I think I can best describe the opposition to it by quoting the words of the then minister of pensions and national health, Hon. C. G. Power, when he said, as found at page 124 of Hansard for January 20, 1937:
-I doubt very much whether any nation reared and strengthened on individual effort as Canada has been from the time of our pioneer forefathers, requires any governmental or governing body to teach the youth of this country whether they should or should not play hockey, football or lacrosse.
I believe that the then minister of pensions and national health summed up the position that some of us in the house today would
take, that we should not ask any government to interfere, to regulate or be responsible for the administration of athletic endeavour in any shape or form. The resolution before us does not call for that. It would place firmly defined responsibility in the hands of a select body to be appointed, but a body which in no way would be answerable to the decisions, whether political or otherwise, of any government administration.
The weakness of any body completely apart from government influence is the same weakness from which the Canada Council suffers today. As recently as today I read a press release advising that the Canada Council has approved a grant to an individual to attend in Pittsburgh, of all places, a workshop where he may study to be a critic. With a sports council we might run into difficulties of the same kind in making awards and giving help from the point of view of determining how policy can best assist individuals. There would be the problem of determining how much should be granted and for what objectives. Geographic considerations would enter into the making of decisions and it would have to be decided what policy we were going to have toward groups which to a very large degree are self-supporting such as semiamateurs or "shamateurs" or whatever you want to call them. That is one weakness that I see in the suggestion but I think that there is certainly an answer.
But let us go on to the advantages. How can a sports council assist? What can it accomplish? First of all, I do not believe that we should necessarily place the emphasis on sending teams to compete in international events throughout the world. I think there is a far more important objective. In fact, from the international point of view I would be of two minds whether or not we should not provide assistance by putting food in the mouths of people in certain areas of the world that cannot afford the type of economy that we enjoy rather than paying money to assist certain athletic organizations to compete internationally.
But what I do say is that those interested in sports are entitled to an opportunity to develop themselves as amateurs in the field of their endeavour, and I make these suggestions. First of all, I suggest that if a Canadian sports council were established it should first of all give consideration to helping those institutions which are prepared to help themselves. That sounds like a great, round platitude but let me explain it. There are in Canada today a number of organizations such as one in my own city known as the Canadian Olympic development committee. That committee was established to assist exactly the same group that would be
1062	HOUSE OF
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council assisted by a sports council. It has been developed along the lines of creating that Olympic awareness which Lloyd Percival has commented on. This Olympic committee in our city, the first of its kind in Canada, has provided and will continue to provide the lead in bringing the winter Olympic games to Canada in 1964 or 1968. That is the first objective which I suggest the council should have.
Second, I think it should provide only where essential transportation costs for competitors in international events, and this based on the ability or lack of ability of the city concerned to provide the money required. I see no reason why a city of 200,000 or 250,000 people should not be able to make provision for its athletes to compete in international events. Unfortunately, however, if it were left to every city or town many people would not be able to take part in these world tournaments. Therefore I see a need in special cases of giving some help to them.
Third, I think the council could help to provide facilities. In my opinion this is one of the most important features. I have in my hand a book which is a report of the youth and recreational centre of the Canadian youth commission. In it are numerous examples showing that, having regard to the different economies of the provinces, the people of some of the provinces are penalized in that those provinces have not been able to provide the sports centres which the people of the more prosperous provinces are able to enjoy. I think it would be a very useful purpose if such a council would give consideration to helping to bring those provinces up to the national standard in the same way as we are attempting to do in many other areas of our economy because, as I have said before, how can you speak of national unity unless all ten Canadian provinces can enjoy economic equality? This applies equally to the sporting scene.
Fourthly, I think that this council could carry out recreational training, something which was attempted in the legislation of 1944 to which reference has already been made, an act to establish a national council of physical fitness. I think it was said by one of the hon. members who has taken part in this debate, that that legislation failed. I suppose the record will show this to be true. However, he went on to say that no effort was made to take action. A great many of the provinces, Mr. Speaker, did take advantage of that measure. Possibly if it did fail it failed largely because of the one thing which the mover of the present resolution before us said he did not want introduced into his


council, that is a large measure of government regulation. We in the province of Alberta were able to use it to a degree in cooperation with our cities in the province. We carried out a recreational program which is today being continued, largely as a result of the initiative lent by this measure.
What I say is that this sports council should be responsible at the national level for a degree of recreational training, or the supervision of it. I suggest that this could become one of its most important functions because, in fact, while the sports council would be concerned not with the professional, but to a degree with international competition, but a large measure of its responsibility will be in youth training, the development of our youngsters and making them understand the meaning of competition, the meaning of being able to grow up in a community and enjoy the facilities which I suggest this council should help to provide.
Fifth, I suggest the council could provide a very substantial amount of promotion and research. We, today, have seen many examples of particular types of athletic endeavour which could be usefully employed, not only as a means of creating a vehicle to enjoy the sport but also for creating an element of national unity, such as my own city created in 1948 in connection with the Grey cup. Unless you are going to be able to carry out promotion and research, which is so essential to all these youths, then they will flounder around on their own. There will be no planing to it. This is an area in which they could certainly receive some help.
Sixth, I suggest that this council could be of help in the promotion of any major sports undertaking. In this house we have already had references to the pan-American games, but the proposition with which I am immediately concerned is that of bringing to Canada its first major contest other than on a Commonwealth basis, the winter Olympics. This event could be staged in the area of Banff-Calgary in 1968. I might be excused if I made a reference to this particular undertaking. Perhaps I might tell the house the way in which I think the government could usefully employ whatever funds it may be able to give to such an undertaking. Perhaps I could give you some idea of the magnitude of the problem that faces a community that wishes to sponsor something of this nature.
It is perhaps well known to the house that very shortly, in 1960, the Olympic games will be going to an area which is known as Squaw Valley in the state of California in the United States. They expect something like 35,000 spectators and about 2,000 contestants. They have already embarked on capital projects

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
costing about $8 million. They have obtained $4 million from the state of California and $4 million from the federal treasury of the United States. Let me say very quickly that it is not the intention of the Calgary Olympic committee to come to this government for $4 million. What I can say is this: that the investment which Squaw Valley will eventually have in an area which I have heard described as perhaps one of the most unsuitable in the world for the staging of the winter Olympic games, is something that will turn it into a revenue producing centre for the entire state, in fact the entire country, for many years to come.
In the area of Banff national park and lake Louise we have already many of the essential facilities that the $8 million will have to provide in Squaw Valley. We have already many facilities which are equal to or better than Olympic standards. We have already much of the accommodation, much of the organization, and later in July of this year, with the full sanction of the Canadian Olympic association, the committee will present its bid for the 1968 winter Olympics. If this group is successful, it will make a national park of Canada the centre of skiing, not only as a sporting attraction but as a spectator attraction, on the North American continent. If they are successful, and I have every reason to believe they will be, they will turn an area which has been able to benefit from summer sporting events into a two-season area, an all year round sporting area, which will make it a very prosperous centre and the returns or dividends payable to the government will, in themselves, be worth the effort to promote the undertaking.
Here is the point I wish to make. If an undertaking of this nature is to be successful, it would perhaps best have been encouraged by the establishment of a sports council which would have been able to provide much of the research which was necessary and which we, in western Canada, provided for ourselves. It would have been able to assist more adequately in problems having to do with history of the problems of past Olympic games. It would have been able to give some consideration to whether or not many of the ideas that we have are practicable, based on experience over the years, and by having a pool of information from which we could draw. This group that is sponsoring the event will have spent about three years before they are in a position to come to ask for any federal help. It would have been of great assistance to this body to have had the co-operation and assistance for which the province and federal government eventually will be asked. This is
the only area in Canada that is in a position to stage an attraction of this type.
I do not intend to labour this point any further. After the selection has been made you will, in due course, hear a complete report from the international Olympic committee. They will reveal the complete plans for the staging, as I said at the outset, of the first international major attraction in Canada in our entire history.
I shall now make one or two references to the situation on the sporting scene with respect to our athletes and our major sports attractions today. I suggest that this is one reason for the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard introducing this resolution. I think he was concerned, if I may say so, with the growing area in which our athletes were not able to compete on an equal basis because they were ill-trained. He was concerned about the way in which we were beginning to lose our desire as a nation to compete. It is a natural desire to want to take some action. I suggest to him that the Canada sports council is indeed a move in the right direction, but it is only one of the moves that should be made. Part of the responsibility must also rest on those people who are today organizing the sporting scene in Canada.
I suggest that part of the responsibility- and a large part of it-must rest with those who insist on overlapping one sporting attraction with another so that in many Canadian cities today you can see a hockey game, a football game and a baseball game all in the same week. I suggest there is a responsibility on those who organize the sporting scene in our cities, a responsibility to get together to eliminate, wherever possible, the seventy-game hockey schedule which runs into May and which competes with baseball and so cannot survive, and baseball cannot survive eventually with a competing football season.
Surely this is not just a government responsibility. The responsibility must rest on those who are promoting the various athletic programs which we enjoy. I also suggest that there is a responsibility falling on those groups who are to some degree pricing themselves out by the sporting field. There are so many dollars available for those who wish to take in any number of attractions. We have found that many of our young men and young women-and this is so not only in connection with professional sports but in connection with many of our amateur programs-are not able to provide the necessary funds with which to enjoy the broad variety which is available to them today.
I suggest that our provincial governments have a responsibility with respect to endeavouring to encourage many of our amateur
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Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council and professional sporting organizations by not taking from them such a high percentage of the gate in the various taxes which are in force today. I suggest that our sporting organizations should endeavour to get together to restore some of the major contests such as the Allan Cup games to the place they occupied in the Canadian sporting scene just a few years ago. Today the young man or the young boy who is competing in any number of events looks at what eventually will be his maximum reward which is not measured in dollars and cents but in recognition. The day that the Allan Cup was literally destroyed, amateur hockey nearly died with it.
I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the Canadian public, those who pay their way to see the show, and those who are responsible for the organization of our major sporting enterprises, those attractions which we see from time to time, also have a responsibility and one in which they must also give some leadership before the government can be expected to undertake something of this size.
Having said that, Mr. Speaker, let me close perhaps on this note. The mover of this resolution gave us what I thought was a broad and comprehensive picture of the need. He presented enough evidence to show that there was a demand to do something. Perhaps it may be said that the timing of this resolution was not good and I think that is true. It must be placed in perspective with all the other things this government will have to do in this session of this parliament. Therefore it must be recognized that there are other priorities well ahead of this one that must be attended to. This proposal has just been suggested to the government, recognizing that it has some shortcomings in how it can be administered. However, it has been suggested that some action on a broad front be taken, not purely to produce a great many muscle bound competitors or to wave flags in international areas of sporting events but rather to provide the facilities, the training, the hope to our youth to be able to compete, and the opportunity for Canadians to avoid becoming purely a nation of spectators. As I say, this is the one hope that those who enjoy sporting events in any area have. It is the one hope they have to see that they can have something on an organized national basis.
There will be critics who will say that this is a luxury that we as Canadians cannot afford. Let me say to them that if they have any doubt about the interest there is in this matter, let them endeavour to attend any number of attractions put on by kids


in pee-wee hockey, by amateur hockey associations or other sports associations not too well known to us. Let us remember that this is a subject that commands a great deal of national attention. It is not something so local that it has no interest or no priority whatsoever. I subscribe to the view that this is a resolution which, like the whole fibre of our Canadian way of life, is made up of little things, of a culture of one type or another, a fast moving business economy, with great natural resources. I would suggest that this is just as much a part and parcel of the Canadian way of life as is anything else that we do. I suggest that it has a real place in our Canadian way of life and is something to which we can without any reservation give complete support.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. ,
Speaker, I rise briefly to express my support and that of this group for this resolution. Mind you, Mr. Speaker, there is a multitude of unseen people behind the curtain. First of all, I must congratulate the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) who introduced the resolution. We support it because it is right in line with C.C.F. policy which has been discussed at district councils and conventions for years and years. That is a policy with respect to physical fitness, recreation and organized amateur sport that lays down the principle that it is up to government to help people who are willing to help themselves. I must again say that we are pleased to see that this Progressive Conservative from Vancouver has introduced this resolution. The farther you go west the more progressive you find the people of all parties. You will notice this evening that if this resolution is talked out it will be talked out by the Progressive Conservatives east of Winnipeg. I would ask you to watch and see whether my words do not come true.
I suppose it is safe to say, generally speaking, that the heyday of amateur sport was between 1900 and the first world war.
I well remember as a boy all the hockey teams, baseball teams, swimming clubs and other small groups organized for track and field activities in the small villages and towns of the area in which I live which, for the information of the house, is known as the garden of Eden. But there is a big decline in all the amateur sports in all the smaller communities. When I was going west a couple of years ago, I stopped off at a small prairie town and found there was a baseball game going on that afternoon. I said to myself that it does my heart good to see a baseball game between teams from two small towns. I had not seen an amateur

game lor years. After I was there a short time I found out that 90 per cent of the players were imports from the United States. That is because commercialism has entered into our sport scene so that commercial spectator sports dominate the scene in Canada today, sports which are largely run for the profit of groups or individuals and not particularly for the welfare of young people in this country.
Before passing on I must pay a tribute to all those in Canada who have continued to do all they can in the national, provincial and community spheres to maintain and develop amateur sports. I cannot resist including in that tribute the people in my district who built up from the small district leagues, the curling clubs, the active skiing clubs at Rossland and Nelson and the other small skiing clubs, the winter sports programs of various types, the programs of field and track activities amongst school children and the junior teams that are organized in such communities by people interested in the welfare of the younger generation. Those people have carried on, and I am sure it is the same all across Canada, under considerable difficulties so far as finance is concerned, so far as direction is concerned, and as far as popular support in many cases is concerned.
I suggest that the government give serious consideration to this resolution and implement the sports council suggested by the resolution to promote amateur sports in Canada. It would be giving a leadership which is very necessary at the present time owing to the obvious state of affairs in amateur sport across Canada. That council could give direction with respect to policy, programs, and could build up support and understanding of the value of amateur sports in this country.
Their particular value is this. First of all, the physical development of our young people; secondly, the development of healthy recreation, and outdoor recreation particularly. It would also provide an opportunity to develop young Canadian athletes whom Canada would be proud of at Olympic and other international sports. It is not a question which calls for a great deal of money. I am sure the mover of this resolution has that in mind. It is not a large sum of money which is necessary. What is necessary, first of all, is leadership; leadership to promote support and understanding, and develop cooperation and co-ordination in the provincial, municipal and community field so we get a sense of direction and a sense of purpose, and mobilize the people interested in amateur sports behind the council's activities. This is not, in my opinion, in the first instance a question of money. In fact, it would be a 66968-9-68
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council relatively small amount of money which would be required for the operation of the council which is suggested by the hon. member's resolution. If the government saw fit to adopt this resolution, I think it would be taking a step which would receive tremendous support from people throughout the country who support the different parties in this house.
In concluding my very brief remarks, I do urge the Progressive Conservative members to allow this resolution to come to a vote before ten o'clock, so that the government can give effect to something which is very necessary at this time, the need for which is obvious and which will do an immense amount of good.


Mr. Eldon M. Woolliams (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to this resolution this evening, I think congratulations to the member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor), who placed this motion on the order paper and who made the recommendations he made this afternoon, are certainly in order. At the outset, I would like to say that I speak in support of the motion, and I am also very happy to see today the C.C.F. party are supporting the Progressive Conservative suggestions. Before setting out a few of my comments and placing them on record, I think at this stage, as we have heard reference to this resolution, I should re-read the resolution:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give early consideration to the advisability of establishing a Canada sports council with the object of fostering and encouraging amateur sport in Canada, such council to have representatives from each of the provinces of Canada.
It need not be repeated that organized amateur sport for our young boys and girls in this country assures us that our best asset, namely our youth, will, by participation in proper amateur sport, have healthy bodies and minds and thereby become outstanding citizens. In the early Greek civilization, which I believe was referred to by one of the British Columbia members, much emphasis was put on physical training so that the citizens of the community would become leaders and take their part in the community. No one denies that sport creates leaders of character. There is, I would suggest, with our youth today a crying need for such type of council.
I wish to refer to a few things which are very personal to me because of my own profession. There is one thing with which I always agree when reference to it is made by a member of the C.C.F. party, the member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) and that concerns the conditions of the jails. The reason I wish to make a few remarks on that is that I believe that amateur sport, properly
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Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council organized, in which the youth of this country will be able to participate, would be the greatest defence against our problem of juvenile delinquency. I think I have found that one of the most depressing things in my career as a young lawyer was to see young men and boys held in custody in some of our city and provincial jails awaiting trial, sometimes without bail. Organized amateur sport in this country, in my opinion, would be, as I said before, the greatest weapon against juvenile delinquency. We need organized sport to keep our boys, in plain language, out of trouble. These boys who are placed in custody in city and provincial jails awaiting trial because of such crimes as car theft, breaking and entering organized by youth mobs, have never really known the thrill of catching a baseball, or known the thrill of receiving the pass of a hockey puck from another teammate and scoring a goal. They have never really known the thrill of receiving a pass in a rugby game. This type of organized sport would have saved many of them from the horrible experience of being detained- and I say this without any hesitation-in outdated, drab, overcrowded, and in many cases dirty jails while they await trial, many of them without bail.
In referring to this question, I am sure John Howard of the 18th century would be shocked to see the conditions in which our youth are detained because they have been involved in something which is contrary to the law. I see many of these young men under these circumstances. In many cases their fathers and mothers ask the same question we would ask namely, "What have I done?" or "What have I left undone?" When I hear that remark I often think of the poet Matthew Arnold who dedicated the poem "Rugby Chapel" in honor of his father. His father, as you all well know, invented and created the sport known as rugby, where you receive the hard knocks, but you learn as a young man to take those knocks. That is the purpose of the game. You will recall the words he used when referring to his own father, which words I say are applicable to young men who have had the opportunity to participate in sport in our land. He said about his father-and I am sure he meant these words with reference to other men who had similar qualifications as his father-these words:
Not like the men of the crowa,
Who all round me today Bluster or cringe, and make life Hideous, and arid, and vile;
But souls tempered with fire,
Fervent, heroic and good,
Helpers and friends of mankind.


I have seen the minds of these young men who have run afoul of the law become warped, and they have become antisocial. They are against everybody and everything: they are against the world. One remembers the expression, "But for the grace of God there goes I", or "But for the grace of God there goes anyone." The type of character that Matthew Arnold described in his dedicated poem is the type of mature character which typifies the average Canadian boy which has had the opportunity of taking part in amateur sport. Boys who have participated in amateur sport are able to make good citizens, able in public relations.
There are many examples in the House of Commons of men who have taken part in amateur sport in their earlier years, and who have the same respect for the rules of debate as they have for the rules of the game in which they participated. I believe a good example of this, and I think the whole house will agree with me, is the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson). No matter how hot the debate becomes, he never usurps the rules of debate, because he learnt those rules as a sportsman in his youth. I think another good example is our own Minister of Transport (Mr. Hees), who is a good sportsman today and also follows in the footsteps of the Leader of the Opposition in that respect.
All of this is ample proof that there is a need for a Canadian sports council which would help organize sport throughout Canada so that every boy and girl in all walks of life would have the opportunity to take part in these games which are so important to character building. In this way we would make certain that the dollar mark would not keep a boy from participating in sports and if such boy has normal aptitude he would have the opportunity to participate in these sports, and if he had an aptitude above normal he would have the chance to excel in these sports. The dollar sign would not stand in his way irrespective of the side of the track he came from.
Such a council of Canada, fostering and encouraging amateur sport in Canada, not regulating it as was suggested by one hon. member, would be the biggest defence against juvenile delinquency. This is an asset which is wasted everytime one of our Canadian boys is incarcerated in an institution. Many of our young men and young boys who are now in custody in provincial and federal institutions would be living normal lives in society if they had had the opportunity to participate in amateur sport. They would have learned earlier the lessons which

are necessary to take their places in society and adjust to the strains of society.
I regret that there has been a tendency to let professional management coaches take the responsibility for training our young men to play hockey, football, basketball and other types of sport. I do not want to leave the impression that there is no place in society for professionals. That is the impression that I believe was left by one of the members of the C.C.F. party who spoke this afternoon. However, professional athletes are proficient performers as distinct from sportsmen as we formerly understood the term. Recently I read an article by Haig-Brown describing his experiences as a magistrate at Campbell River, British Columbia, and he had this to say, differentiating between amateur and professional sport:
A professional doesn't play a game for fun. He works at it for a living. He may be a lighthearted individual who likes to enjoy himself. He may be an honourable man who wants to observe every rule faithfully and show the utmost generosity to his opponents but he had better not let these considerations interfere too much with the business of winning or he won't be earning a living very long. He is controlled by promoters and coaches, by the press and by the paying public. If his mental attitude remains that of an amateur he cannot possibly survive his first season.
This of course may be carried further to the conclusion that only the best can take part in sports today. But I do suggest that that is the way to differentiate between the two-that today there has been a tendency to sponsor professional sport and let amateur sport go by, as was mentioned by the hon. member for Calgary South (Mr. Smith). The problem is that only the cream off the top, only the proficient performers, get that opportunity and I do think the recommendation made by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard as to establishing a council to encourage and foster amateur sports so that all boys and girls in this country can have an opportunity to participate in that sport so that they can take their places in society and become leaders in some form or another is a good one.
What is needed is an organization to help the boys play hockey on the ponds and on the outdoor rinks, on the vacant lot or in the parks rather than have them governed by professional rules and regulations and have them sign contracts before they reach a mature age. Such boys serve the sport rather than the sport serving the boys. The fostering and encouraging of amateur sport in Canada will give a universal atmosphere to the whole tone of our sports program. Suggestions have also been made in this article by Haig-Brown in MacLeans magazine of May 12, 1956, in which he said:
66968-9-68i
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
Athletic sports are said to be character forming. They undoubtedly are-to those who play, those who watch and those who merely read about them. But they can develop shabby and dirty characteristics just as readily as they can develop sound and good ones. When winning is paramount and fouling an opponent or fooling a referee is virtue, there can be no generosity.
Self-control is no longer a virtue if screaming at an umpire or fighting or petulance pleases the crowds. The idea that body-contact sports teach a youngster to take it and still behave like a civilized human being is utterly lost when the press argues that grown men should be excused for losing their tempers in the heat of the game.
And he goes on to say that there has been a big change. Some argue that the boys have changed, but I am not one who argues that the boys and girls of this generation are, basically, any different from the boys and girls of past generations. But something has changed in this country, the same as in some other countries similar to our own. The rural population has moved into the city. This is the beginning, I suggest. Recreational facilities in the cities are soon wiped out, youth runs afoul of the law and then has to suffer the consequences of the conditions I described at the beginning of my address. What we need, I suggest, is good honest sport organized and taught by ordinary fellows who know the game and who will give the boys plenty of space where expensive equipment is not a problem, a place where everyone can take part, an atmosphere where winning is not all important, a condition where the individual is all important and team spirit is all important; a place where the old Greek rule of thumb is the rule rather than the exception, to use no fraud and no guile in contest.
Turning just for a moment to give this a personal touch, I was happy to hear the hon. member for Calgary South-maybe this is Calgary night because the hon. member for Calgary South spoke and I see the M.L.A. from Calgary in the gallery-but I am very happy on behalf of the Bow River constituency and particularly that part around lake Louise-and I may suggest to you, those who have visited it, that it is the most beautiful playground in the world-to see that there is a movement afoot, and hope that they will ask for the world Olympics in 1968 or sooner because Banff is one of the places where such songs really make sense-where the deer and the antelope roam and where the moose roam and where the bears roam -one of the last of those places set apart in our country as a natural park where nature remains as she was from the very first times. Besides Banff we have places like mount Norquay where the skiers practise on Sundays and other days of the week. From these slopes I hope to see within the

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council next two years, if we are fortunate enough to get the Olympics, skiers from all the world going down those slopes to meet with all the Canadians.
I was happy to receive a letter from my constituents in Banff advising me of the recent organization of the committee for the sole purpose of building a sports centre in Banff which will cost approximately $600,000. The committee was organized in the district of Calgary with the hope of raising $150,000. They are asking for support from the provincial department of parks and are laying their plans before the department so that skating and other winter sports will be available at Banff. Banff will thus become known not only as a beautiful place in which to golf but as a winter sports centre for Canadians and others to enjoy. As one who has the honour of representing that constituency I extend an invitation to all of you to visit Banff when the Olympic games are played there. I trust you will all have an excellent time and you will take back many pleasant memories from my constituency.
Ladies and gentlemen-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Eldon Mattison Woolliams: I mean, Mr. Speaker. Those hon. members who have participated in a few campaigns will appreciate that in unguarded moments you find yourself still campaigning. I am happy to say that I wholeheartedly support the motion on behalf of my constituency.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I would be very glad to forego the pleasure of speaking on this motion if I thought that by refraining I would be making a vote on it possible but I understand-and I do not complain about it

that there are a great many hon. members who wish to express their views. It is possible therefore, to say the least, doubtful whether a vote will be taken tonight. Perhaps I might be forgiven then for taking advantage of this opportunity of saying a few words about a resolution in which I confess I am very interested indeed and which I wholeheartedly support. I hope no one is going to say that I did not support it at any time during the last 10 years. I did, but not in the House of Commons.
In any event this motion merely asks the government to give early consideration to the possibility of establishing a Canada sports council. The aim of this resolution in my opinion is one which should commend itself to every hon. member of this house as I believe it does. It certainly deals with a matter in which I have been interested as long as I have been able to remember anything.

As the hon. member who has just taken his seat said, some of us in this house in days gone by have known the thrill of receiving a pass and the desolation of missing the ensuing shot or occasionally the thrill of putting it in the upper left-hand corner.
I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) for putting this resolution on the order paper and for the way he introduced it to the house this afternoon. He reminded us that we now have in this country a Canada Council and that the time has come for a Canada sports council. Indeed, he said this afternoon, and I believe I am quoting him correctly, that perhaps there was a greater need for a Canada sports council. I would not like to go so far as that myself because I can think of no greater need in Canada at the present time than government assistance to education through scholarships and through the construction of university buildings and government assistance to the cultural development of our country. Nothing, I think, can be more important than that.
But so, also, are physical fitness and a healthy interest by this country's youth in amateur sport important. Surely, it is the course of wisdom to pursue the paths of national development in both fields, the field of athletic activity and the field of cultural activity. As a matter of fact, I have heard some people rather disparage the assistance that has been given to cultural activities in this country through the Canada Council by calling it "aid to ballet dancers" but it is unnecessary to remind the house that a country, the government and the system of society in which perhaps places greater emphasis on the material development of its members than any other society-I am talking about the communist state in Russia-[DOT] places almost as great an emphasis and gives as great assistance to ballet dancing as to sport. So it is possible and it should be desirable, I suggest, to combine any government assistance to these two activities in the material and the non-material development of our country.
I would hope that when the time comes- and I think it will come-for the establishment of a council devoted to the objective of this resolution, that council in its activities and in the assistance it may get from the federal government and perhaps from provincial governments as well, will be more concerned with encouraging the youth of this country to participate-and this has been mentioned, I know, by more than one speaker today-in sports and less interested in watching sports via television.
The hon. member who moved the motion this afternoon said that one function of such

a council would be to survey the needs in this field. I believe the time has come when that should be done in one way or another. He also said another function would be for the government to supply funds and other forms of assistance, some of which he mentioned. I should like to make it clear that in this context I associate the provincial governments with anything the senior government may be able to do in this field in the future.
He also mentioned the desirability of setting up a school for coaches and he added- and I think this is of interest and importance -that a council of this kind if it should be set up could play a most useful and important part in preparing the way for our centenary celebration in 1967 by laying the groundwork for the international athletic side connected with that celebration. Perhaps to be effective it is not too soon for the government to do that now. I know the hon. member struck a responsive chord in our hearts when he mentioned that perhaps steps could be taken even now to prepare the way for Olympic, or Pan-American or British commonwealth games in Canada during that celebration.
I would hope that a council of this kind would have as its first function the encouragement and support of the participation of the youth of our country in amateur sports and to do what can be done and what certainly needs to be done to persuade them that there is more to sport than watching it through television. I would also hope that this council, if and when it is set up, could support, improve and help to organize Canada's participation in international sport. There is no doubt, and it has been mentioned by more than one speaker, that our country has slipped in recent years in this branch of international activity. I am old enough to remember the great days of Canada's participation in Olympic and international sport, especially in track and field. I think they were probably greater days than any we have known since. I remember the great days of Sherring, who won the first marathon, and Bob Kerr, both of them from Hamilton, Ed Archibald, Jack Tait and the immortal Tom Longboat. Perhaps we reached the height of our international achievement in this field of sport at the Antwerp Olympics when, as I think the hon. member who began this debate pointed out, a Vancouver sprinter won the 100 yards, won the 220 yards and a Winnipeg quarter-miler would have won the quarter mile if he had not turned around in the last ten yards to see how far the American was behind him. Since that time there is no doubt that we have not been as successful in Olympic sports as we were in those earlier days.
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
Even in hockey there has been a big change from the time a few Canadian students at Oxford could arm themselves with some sticks and secondhand skates, go off to the European continent and become European champions even if they had to learn to skate in Switzerland to do it. We have not been surpassed in this particular sport but other countries are catching up to us although perhaps in compensation we have made international progress in other forms of athletic activity such as swimming, golf and skiing.
You may argue that it is no part of government and it is not even a legitimate government interest to worry about international sport, but unfortunately-perhaps it is unfortunate; whether or not it is, it is true- international sport is now associated with international prestige. If it was before world war II, if it was before the 30's, it is much more now because of the determination of the totalitarian states to use achievement on the sporting field as an indication of national prowess and prestige. Therefore, although I do not suggest it should be carried too far, I think it is now a legitimate interest of government to do what it can to see that the reputation of our country is maintained on the international athletic field.
I know some of the difficulties in this regard because in our country as in some other countries we do attempt to observe the amateur rules that have been laid down for international competition and which, of course, do not mean anything in totalitarian states. I have come to the conclusion myself -I do not know whether it is a valid or right one-that the time has come when, if international sport is to be such a matter of international prestige, there should be no distinction between an amateur and a professional in representing his country in international competition. There is no such distinction in cricket which in some respects is supposed to be the most amateur of all sports so I should like to see the day when a person who represents Canada can do so irrespective of whether he is a professional or an amateur.
It is also true, and it has a bearing on the prestige aspect of international sport, that those who do represent our country in this field of activity can do a great deal of good for the prestige of Canada or they can do an equal amount of harm. Perhaps I may be permitted to say that I have had some experience in this field. I once had the privilege of taking part in international sport but I have also had the privilege of representing Canada abroad diplomatically in countries when Canadian teams would turn up. It was just as important for the prestige and the
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Sports[DOT]-Proposed Establishment of Council good name of Canada in respect of those competitions that our men made as good a name off the ice or off the field as they did on the ice or on the field.
The word "ambassadors" has been used a great deal in connection with this subject, and it is quite literally true. They are indeed ambassadors of Canada when they represent Canada, especially in the sport which we consider we have made peculiarly our own. They represent Canada not only on the ice but off the ice. Perhaps here is one thing that a sports council could do. When we send teams abroad to take part in international competition under international rules perhaps we should be more careful to brief them more carefully so that they know the difference between the kind of rules under which they play hockey abroad and the rules under which they play hockey in Canada for there is a very great difference between the two games. I am not criticizing the players but sometimes the inability to appreciate that difference can cause some embarrassment.
There would, of course, be difficulties in carrying out a resolution of this kind to encourage amateur sport. One of the difficulties is drawing a line and making a distinction, and it is not as easy as it used to be, between amateur and professional sport. What is an amateur these days in some sports? I have heard it said that there are some amateurs who just cannot afford to turn professional. It is true that in some sports it would be a problem for a sports council to draw the line in a way which would be satisfactory to everybody.
Perhaps hockey is the best example of that difficulty. I think one of the speakers this afternoon made some mention of this. Certainly there is a problem involved in the pressures that professionalism puts on those taking part in amateur sport at a very young age. I do not want to exaggerate but you see a boy skating on the street these days and shooting a puck against a wall. You think that he is doing it very efficiently and showing signs of coming greatness, but when you talk to him you probably find that he is on the negotiation list of the Chicago Black Hawks. While this would be a difficulty for a sports council, especially in the kind of assistance it would be asked to give, it also might provide an opportunity to bring about a better relationship in this country between professional and amateur sports.
One of the things, of course, that a council of this kind would have to do would be to provide funds, just as the Canada Council does in another field where I am sure it finds lots of difficulty, and to allocate those


funds to suitable activities. While I agree with one of the speakers I listened to this afternoon who said we should be exceedingly careful to keep government out of sport, nevertheless if government in some form or other provided funds it might be a temptation to influence the activities which were being assisted. I hope it would not be but it might be that he who pays the player will call the tune. Any sports council would have to be very careful to avoid that. It can be done and I think it is being done in the case of the Canada Council because when that council was set up, as hon. members know, the government was kept out of any direct participation in its activities. Perhaps that could be done also in the case of a sports council. I suggest that it certainly should be done that way.
The objective of the resolution would be a very desirable one if it could be achieved. It would help in the creation of physical fitness in this country. It would help to encourage the youth of the country to take part rather than watch amateur sport. It would foster that individual desire for achievement which is the basis of good sport. But I do believe that in itself the council would not do these things. It could merely assist them.
Perhaps an indication of the limitations of a council of this kind could be found in the experience of Australia. I think it will be generally accepted by those who are interested in these things that the Australians provide the most magnificent example of achievement in sport of any country in the world today. There are only about 10 million people in Australia and we know how they excel in a variety of sports. They have done this, not through assistance from government, but because they have the desire for achievement. They have the determination to get out and learn how to play games. They are encouraged mostly by voluntary organizations in connection with the games they play. I believe there is a far greater interest in Australia, not only in participation in athletics but in voluntary assistance to encourage that participation than there is in this country.
They have not got a sports council, I am informed, in Australia. They have a federal government physical fitness council which makes grants to the states and which does encourage sporting educational activities. It makes grants to international sports teams. I believe they do not have a sports council of the type which is visualized here, and yet these 10 million people in Australia have accomplished things in this field of activity which are greater than any country their size in the world. While a council of this

kind could be most helpful, it could only assist in developing participation; the skill and achievement in which must exist in the youth of the country in the first place. But this, in itself, is surely something that is worth doing.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, for these and for other reasons which I could elaborate if there were time, I should like to express my hearty support for the resolution and congratulate the member who has initiated it. I express the hope that if we are not allowed to vote on it tonight, perhaps the feeling that has been expressed in this house will make an impression upon the government and before long we will have our Canada sports council. I know, perhaps as well as most members, the demands that are made on governments these days for assistance for everything under the sun. There have to be priorities, and perhaps this may not have top priority, but I hope that when some of these other demands may be less pressing than they are at the present time the government, with the feeling of the house as expressed this afternoon and evening in this debate before it, will be able to take up this matter. Then, perhaps we may have the pleasure of welcoming in this house the establishment of a sports council for Canada.


Mr. John MacLean (Winnipeg Norih Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I feel that we have had the pleasure of listening to a great number of speakers who have debated this resolution in its various aspects. Some have placed the emphasis upon juvenile delinquency, others on professional sports, others on group sports and still others on sports involving individual participation. In looking at this resolution it is my opinion that the only way in which it can be considered in all its aspects is from the viewpoint of the welfare of the people. What does this resolution attempt to do in so far as the people themselves are concerned? In what way does it affect their welfare?
If one considers the resolution in this light, it actually breaks down into three distinct aspects. There is one part that deals with recreation, that is those sports which may be called non-action sports; the second one deals with physical fitness; and the third aspect of this resolution deals with sports in general or what might be termed action sports.
In considering the first aspect which this resolution covers, and which I feel is the field of recreation, it is recognized I believe by everyone that at the present time there is a lack of facilities for the provision of recreation, especially for our senior citizens
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council and those who are disabled or unable to actively participate in sports. This problem of the lack of recreational facilities, of course, is within provincial jurisdiction. Although such a council as is envisaged by this resolution, which would be set up in conjunction with the provinces, could deal with this field of recreation, I submit that the problem here is solely the lack of adequate finances. The problem in this field could be solved simply by the government, if it wished, making a grant to the provinces which would enable them to supply these additional recreational facilities. I believe that that is the problem, in essence, with regard to recreation.
Turning now to the field of physical fitness, which this resolution covers and which is a very important matter in Canada today, I think many members of this house will recall the National Physical Fitness Act, which was in force in this country for a good many years, but which was repealed in June, 1954. This act, I am sure, was set up with the good intention of promoting and increasing national interest in physical fitness. Although some useful work was performed under this act in co-ordinating physical fitness programs in the provinces, it is readily apparent that the program itself was a failure. The division set up under this act was originally set up to work on physical education, but ever so gradually it drifted into adult education, drama and other cultural fields. However, even if we say that this act was a failure in itself, that does not mean that there is no need in Canada today for some active steps to alleviate the present condition in connection with physical fitness across this country.
I am sure many hon. members of this house are not aware that our own department of health and welfare is actively concerned with this problem of physical fitness. At the present time, they have developed the Canadian physical efficiency tests in order to provide a practical means whereby individual basic physical efficiency may be assessed with due regard to age, sex and physique. These tests at the present time, or so I am told, are being conducted in many provinces. I know the department hopes that this testing project will be completed and standards developed during the present year. Our own department of health and welfare is aware of this problem and is attempting at this time to set up some sort of basis upon which a comparison may be made in order to ascertain where we stand in relation to other countries. When these tests have been completed the information then available to us will give us a better indication of the state of our physical fitness on a national scale.
1072	HOUSE OF
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
However, there is enough evidence now on hand to assume, for all practical purposes, that our physical educational system is not of the highest quality and that our youth today are not concerned with physical fitness. In the province of Manitoba we had a committee study physical efficiency and recreation. Their report was submitted last June. The committee observed that Manitoba had the worst physical education system in western Canada, and that the greatest impediment in this system was the lack of trained staff. I believe that this problem, in varying degrees, exists right across Canada.
The solution to this problem is based on many factors some of which would be, in my estimation anyway, the provision of scholarships to aid physical education teachers; more physical education courses at our universities across Canada; and those universities which have not physical education courses should be prevailed upon to indicate them forthwith.
Last but not least-and perhaps this is the most important-we should be prepared to give national recognition to the profession of physical education. These people who obtain these degrees are not accorded that degree of recognition which they should be accorded in the field as professional men. Implementation of these remedies would assist our physical education and development of physical fitness to a large extent. However, there is a greater basic problem underlying this problem of physical fitness and I shall deal with it in a moment or two.
I might mention here again that this aspect of physical fitness is under provincial jurisdiction and if this council were set up there would still be this problem of putting into force policies that they may consider would be of great effect. These then are two aspects of this resolution that must be considered, namely recreation and physical fitness.
The third aspect, and to my mind by far the most important, is sports and the importance of this council with regard to helping amateur sports in Canada today. Even if this council were set up under this resolution, although it would be of great benefit I submit that we are in effect merely putting the cart before the horse. I grant that at the present time in Canada there is a lack of coaches, training facilities, playing fields, trainers and so on but the provision of these facilities themselves would not be the solution to our problem. The problem here also underlies what we face in the field of physical fitness. As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) set forth clearly in his remarks, we must provide for our Canadian youth the


incentive to take advantage of our physical fitness programs and to participate in amateur sports.
The Leader of the Opposition talked about Australia and he is quite right. Australia, a country of 10 million people has made a mark which perhaps will never be achieved again in the field of sport with regard to the number of people in the country and the number of top honours they have won. The only reason that they have done this is that they have provided for their youth that incentive to take part in the physical fitness programs and to participate in national amateur sports. What we actually need here in Canada is to make sports national in character. I would therefore think that the place to start would be with regard to international competition; and then afterwards, after interest had been further stimulated, to proceed to the organization of a co-operative plan with the provinces with regard to making Canadian sports even more national. There are local and individual successes of which we as Canadians are duly proud but there is no concerted effort by Canadians to maintain competition.
At the present time I believe that amateur sport across Canada is in the hands of capable and qualified men who are able to give competent leadership to our youth if they so desire it. The most striking example of this type of leadership is a man from my own city of Winnipeg who has devoted his entire life to the youth of our city in the field of sports. I refer to none other than Vince Leah, who next Saturday night in Winnipeg will be feted by the citizens of that city for his untiring efforts through the last 25 years to the youth of the city of Winnipeg in the field of sports. This man is only one of many striking examples across Canada of men who have given their time, their energy and in some cases their whole life to the youth of this country with regard to helping them in amateur sports.
We know these men are able to give this sort of leadership to our youths. We also know the facilities are available. I grant that they are perhaps not adequate facilities. It is true that we need more facilities, more coaches, more trainers and so on. But at the present time facilities are available and there are competent men to give leadership and training to the youth of Canada. More and more, I maintain, it is becoming increasingly evident that our Canadian youth are not availing themselves of these facilities or of the type of leadership that is offered across Canada today. What we actually need is to participate in international competition to such an extent that we can arouse in the

minds of our young people that necessary incentive to take more interest in the field of physical fitness and in Canadian sport as being national in character.
I believe the first step in order to do this would be the formation of a Canada sports council as is suggested in this resolution but only with regard to international competitions. If support were forthcoming from such a council with regard to provision of coaches, finances and facilities for such competitions, then I maintain that this incentive to participate in sports would be supplied to our young Canadians. If this were done I believe that the interest of our youth in Canada would be stimulated and developed to such an extent that, in due course, whatever deficiencies now existing with regard to physical fitness and Canadian amateur sports would be effectively remedied.
I should like to see the hon. member's proposed Canada sports council comprised of representatives of various athletic groups who at the present time participate in international competitions and who would be, in the light of the experience they have gathered by way of these international competitions, able to decide the best ways in which assistance would be forthcoming from such a council to encourage our sports in order to make them more national in character.
As I said before, this would only be a beginning but I believe it would be a sound beginning. Once our Canadian youth have this incentive with regard to physical fitness and amateur sport then such a council could be further developed in co-operation with the provinces with regard to the development of physical fitness and provision of adequate facilities for athletics, amateur sport and recreation in general across Canada. We must make-and this is the important point- Canadian athletics national in character. We must have some national pride in all our amateur athletics.
For example, one of the problems facing international competitions has now arisen in the city of Winnipeg. At the present time we are attempting to have the 1963 Pan-American games held in Winnipeg. This is some four years distant, yet at this time we are obliged to make decisions, develop resources and find finances in order to present to the games body an undertaking that we will have these games in Winnipeg in 1963. This is an extremely expensive and costly undertaking. However, there is no doubt that the holding of these games in Winnipeg would inspire the youth of Winnipeg to take a more active part in track, field and other sports events which are held in conjunction with
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council these games. This would be a good thing for the city of Winnipeg and for the province of Manitoba as a whole.
Yet we run into here the same problems as those that existed last year with regard to the British empire games. The basic problem is lack of financing. The city of Winnipeg must guarantee $2.6 million to the games committee at this point. It would cost that much to provide more facilities and have the necessary arrangements made to have the games held there. This is a large amount of money, Mr. Speaker. I submit that in this field this is the best way in which the federal government can help amateur sport in Canada, namely with regard to international competition. In this connection I would like to read a few words from a letter sent to me by Mr. Jim Daly, who has been prominent in track and field in Canada throughout the last few years, and is one of those people devoted to amateur sport in general. He of course comes from the city of Winnipeg, and has this to say with regard to the Pan-American games:
If we are successful we will of course have to add to our present facilities to an international level.
It seems terrible that in a country as large as ours that it has to be something like the PanAmerican meets or the British Empire games to provoke the building of this type of facility which should really be available in every decent sized community in Canada.
Most of the sports that people follow in Canada are the varieties which are common only to this continent. The trouble with this type of sport is that the Canadian public has no idea how they would rate internationally until one of our track, swimming or hockey teams takes a drubbing at the Olympics. Then the cobwebs are yanked away from our eyes and we realize, too late, that we are not as vigorous as we should be.
He goes on to say that there are too many needs in Canada which hinder amateur athletics. At the present time there is a lack of full-time coaches. There is a lack of sufficient competition here in Canada because of the long distances and the cost of travel between towns. He says that the government should seriously consider setting up a national system in track and field, gymnastics and swimming as a start. He suggests these sports because both sexes are able to participate and because there is no age barrier. It is possible for the very young and everyone up to the late thirties to participate.
The problem is even greater when international competitions are held outside of Canada. I could go on, as other members have-


Harold Edward Winch: Do not talk it out.


John Douglas Campbell MacLean: -to show the manner in which other countries have attempted to build up a high enthusiasm
1074	HOUSE OF
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council for sports in general. However, I would like to spend a lew moments with regard to the U.S.S.R. and those nations behind the iron curtain. We have heard tonight the Leader of the Opposition speaking about the importance of sport in international affairs, and how international sport is now connected with countries dealing economically and on government level in the world today. This is quite true. In Russia it is certainly true. At the present time, according to the 1958 sports handbook there are in the U.S.S.R. upwards of 1,500 large stadiums as well as 7,000 gymnasiums, 25,000 football fields, and some 200,000 volley ball and basketball courts in use. In 1957 the Soviet union budgeted for sports some 37,900 million rubles. Think of this. Think of what the U.S.S.R. is doing with regard to international competition in sports, and then think of our own puny contribution with regard to trying to arouse some incentive in our youth to take a more active participation in these games. I do not advocate that we in Canada could or should attempt to duplicate what the U.S.S.R. is doing. I merely point out these facts to show the importance the Soviet union places on athletics. The Soviets must win at all costs, and this surely applies to sports.
This concept is quite neatly summed up in a resolution passed by the third plenum of the Polish central physical culture committee. It states, in part, "The superiority of Stalinist socialist athletics over capitalist athletics must be continually demonstrated." In other words, they attempt to prove that superior athletes are the product of a superior political system and, of course, they have accomplished this, in their own minds, in many devious ways. I was very interested to read a publication put out by Moscow in 1957 called "Wizard of Ice Hockey". This was put out by the Soviet government and is a complete novel dealing with one ice hockey star, their master champion in ice hockey, one Bobrov. I am sure anyone who has followed the Olympic games or the ice hockey games will remember that Mr. Bobrov played for the Russian hockey team. This book deals exclusively with this man from the time he was born until some time last year when he retired. Throughout the novel ail we hear is talk about the Soviet athletes, the Soviet super heroes. This is how important it is to Russian teams in international competitions. It takes the reader right through the Olympic championships from the time they beat Toronto Marlboroughs to the triumph for the Penticton team, and then on to the defeat of the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen. I think some parts of this are so interesting-
[Mr. MacLean (Winnipeg North Centre) .1


Harold Edward Winch: Do not talk the motion down.


John Douglas Campbell MacLean: [DOT]-that I might take the opportunity of putting them on record. This part in question deals with the time they played the Kitchener-Waterloo Dutchmen:
Bobrov-
Their super star.
-had played in games where tension had reached an unbelievable pitch. But he felt that what would happen now would outbalance all that. All he hoped for was that his strength would last and that he could forget that 20 hours ago he had already given all he could to make victory certain. Yet how could he forget? Twenty hours was too short an interval between two matches.
Bobrov saw the squat figure of Floyd Martin, with whom he would come to grips time and again in front of the goal; Donald Rope, whose face was fantastically marked with bruises; the huge Jack McKenzie, the Canadian captain, wearing a red knitted cap; Kenny Laufman with a bandaged head; Gerry Theberge, Bob White, Charlie Brooker -strong, heavy shouldered men, stamping their feet with impatience, and already eager to start the attack-
Then he goes on and describes the game. The game is described minute by minute, second by second, in some 25 pages. At page 64 it says:
The quintettes replaced each other in rapid succession, but now it was all the same to Bobrov whether he was in the field or sitting on the other side of the boards. There was no rest. He was in the game all the time. His comrades probably felt much as he did. Nobody could count himself out of the game for any length of time, it was simply impossible to do that. Once anybody lost the pace for a single second it was doubtful if he could find the strength to carry on-
Yes, it was a fight and nothing else-a bout between wrestlers or boxers. Only they fought it out on ice. The Canadians were losing their heads completely. Sologubov took the puck away from two of their forwards.
This is what they think of international competition. It is a fight. But how much better it is to have this fight on ice between two hockey teams than to have it between two nations with atomic bombs and hydrogen weapons. Let us consider for a few moments how important it would be to the youth of this country for this Canadian government to take an active step in promoting such a Canada sports council with regard to financing and assisting in international competition.


Harold Edward Winch: Are you in favour of it?


John Douglas Campbell MacLean: am not in favour of the resolution as it stands. I would submit at this time that amateur sport in Canada is in capable hands, and we should start with international competitions. Then afterwards we can deal with amateur sport as it exists in Canada today. We, as Canadians, should not belittle our achievements. It is only too easy to deplore and criticize, as

Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council
probably we in this house are so often doing. We have had some grand achievements in the past, and we will have a lot more in the future. There is no reason at all to believe- and I submit this in all honesty-that our trained Canadian athlete is in any way inferior to any other athlete in the world today. However, in order to demonstrate this conclusively we will have to do something to stimulate the interest and the incentive of our Canadian youth, and I submit that the only way we can start to do that is to provide some assistance with regard to international competition. Our athletes themselves, as an hon. member has said, are our finest ambassadors. We never did demand that they win; we asked them only to put up a good show.
I know that the good wishes of every member of this house go with the Belleville McFarlands. Perhaps I have today dwelt too much on the subject of hockey. I have not meant to. The remarks I have made in the course of my speech refer identically to any other sport as it is played in Canada today.
I cannot support the hon. member for Van-couver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) in his resolution with regard to amateur sports in general across Canada dealing with all three phases of recreation, physical fitness, and sports. I cannot see that providing extra facilities, extra coaches and extra money to buy things is going for one single moment to make our Canadian youth want to participate more in sports. Our leadership is here and we have adequate facilities. We could use more facilities, we know that, but the only way we are going to increase the degree of physical fitness in Canada today and improve our position with regard to amateur sport is to assist and help in any way this government can in order to promote and give financial assistance to our teams in international competitions.


Mr. R. M. T. McDonald (Hamilton South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to take this opportunity to pass a few remarks on this resolution. First, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Taylor) for his thoughtfulness in proposing this resolution. I feel today that there is a great need for this type of thing in Canada. I understand there are a few other hon. members who wish to speak on this motion at this time and I should say it will not go to a vote tonight.


Harold Edward Winch: That kills it then.


Robert Matthew Turnbull McDonald: If the
C.C.F. had not talked so much about working in the House of Commons on these problems with regard to committees at the beginning of the day we might have got to it.
It seems that the federal government did get into this field when they found that 40 per cent of the recruits going into the Canadian army were not physically fit and had to be rejected. This brought about the National Physical Fitness Act in 1943. The act was passed to assist in the extension of physical education in all educational and other establishments, to encourage, develop and correlate all activities relating to physical development of the people through sports, athletic and other similar pursuits and to train teachers, lecturers and instructors- I am just skimming this through quickly so it will not take too much time-to organize activities designed to promote physical fitness and to provide facilities in this connection.
This was not too successful. We cannot promote physical fitness by enacting laws. We must have something creative across Canada whereby everyone takes part. I have to cut this speech short, but I should like to make two or three comments with regard to professional and amateur sport.
I have had the privilege to play both in track and field and in football and I have had a lot of opportunities to observe the reactions	of professional and amateur
athletes. I think the resolution put forward today by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard was meant to encourage amateur sport in the aspect of mass participation in sports in Canada. I probably have a little different outlook about keeping up with the Joneses such as the United States and Russia and saying that Canada must have a great prestige in the world. I think our prestige will come, but only by hard work.
This is not done by advocating we must have big champion athletes but by getting down to grass roots. We heard during the last election campaign about grass roots and I think the only way to get down to grass roots is to find the teachers who are willing to go ahead and promote amateur athletics. I think the hon. member who spoke last about track and field, gymnastics and swimming had a good idea because this is where Canadians can give of their best because we have all the natural resources of winter atmosphere and summer atmosphere. I thinir where Russia, for example, won a lot of its points in Olympic games in track and field, the individual sports effort where you can pick out the big, handsome athlete. What they have done is this: they have gone into their educational system and factories. They have found people who want to do something and told them: now you can get ahead and do something. If you give the proper guidance I think it should create an atmosphere across
1076	HOUSE OF
Sports-Proposed Establishment of Council Canada that will enable us to compete, not next year but perhaps in 1968, perhaps in 1972. It would give us a chance to line up a program of complete activities in this field.
As far as gymnastics, track and field are concerned this could be done right with our own children. I am prompting my children to skate and swim and do these things and I think in the educational system of the public schools, secondary schools and universities there is a great need for this type of work to be done. In gymnastics the Russians put in a continuous drive for 10 years and then walked away with all the prizes in that department. I do not care that Russia is 175 million and we are only 17 million if a complete effort is put out by all the people in Canada. If we set up this type of council as recommended by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard it can give the guidance for these people to work but it is up to the individuals all across the country to go ahead and put forth this effort.
In Hamilton we have had a lot of experience in track and field activities of the British Empire games and the Olympics. We have many people who are interested in this matter. But I feel that every person in Canada must get behind this complete program of sports in Canada.
There is one other aspect I should like to deal with for just a moment. There has been talk here today about professional sports, that they are stealing our boys. I think that is quite true in certain instances. I read some reports saying that professionalism is a great worry today and pointing out that not too many boys make the grade. The report also infers that some of these boys go to the bad side of things. I would also point out that in high schools a few years ago they used to stress championship in athletics; they must have one big football team and all the rest of the children would go their own ways. This is not the answer. The answer is that we must all work together to develop sports in Canada. We have the facilities here. We

have a country that I think is the best in the world and I think if we all work together and promote every activity across Canada, education in the schools, the Olympic association, the British Empire Association, and so on we can go ahead and perhaps in 10 or 15 years the best of nations will not be looking back at us.


Harold Edward Winch: Zero. You have talked it out.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who I believe is leading the house, what is to be the business tomorrow.


Gordon Minto Churchill: The program for the week was outlined by the leader of the house on Friday, but I will repeat what he suggested for Tuesday and Wednesday so that it will be on the record and everybody will be informed. We propose tomorrow to begin with the supplementary estimates and with the co-operation of the house, if these are finished early, we will follow with item No. 30, the resolution concerning the St. Lawrence seaway; followed by item No. 31, the resolution concerning the Northwest Territories Act; item No. 28, a resolution concerning the National Defence Act; item No. 26, a resolution concerning the Fisheries Improvement Loans Act; item No. 33, a resolution concerning the Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act; and then the resolution on the order paper today dealing with parliamentary secretaries to ministers of the crown.
We consider that this will be the program for Tuesday and Wednesday. The leader of the house indicated what would follow on Thursday and Friday when he spoke on Friday.


Lionel Chevrier: It looks like the program for the week as well.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Bell (Carleion): 1.	Upon what date was provision first made for appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada in forma pauperis?
2.	From the said date until the 31st of December, 1958, how many applications for leave to appeal in forma pauperis had been made?
3.	Of these how many (a) have been granted: (b) have been refused: (c) are still pending?
4.	From the said date until the 31st of December, 1958, how many applications have been made by respondents for leave to defend an appeal in forma pauperis?
5.	Of these, how many (a) have been granted; (b) have been refused; (c) are still pending?
Answer by: Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):
1.	December 10,	1949, with respect to
appellants and December 23,	1949, with
respect to respondents.
2.	12.
3.	(a) 8; (b) 4; (c) none.
4.	1.
5.	(a) 1; (b) none; (c) none.


GRADING AND PRICE SUPPORT
Mr. Martin (Essex East): 1.	Has any request been received by the government since December 1, 1958, asking for an improved grading service on corn delivered to the elevator?
2.	Has a request been made since December 1, 1958, by any organization of corn growers in Ontario, for a price support on corn for the 1958 corn crop?
Answer by:	Hon. Henri Courtemanche
(Secretary of Slate):
1.	The board of grain commissioners has no record of any correspondence being received asking for an improved grading service on corn delivered to the elevator.
2.	Yes.


FEDERAL GRANTS TO PRIVATE TELEPHONE COMPANIES
Mr. Dupuis: 1.	Has the government made any grants to private telephone companies since June, 1957?
2.	If so, to what companies and on what dates were such grants made?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):
1. Yes.
2. Name
Dr. Gerard Corriveau for
Gerard Prevost	
Le Syndicat de Telephone
de l'Averne	
St. Andre de Restigouche.. La Cie de Telephone de
Piopolis	
Compagnie de Telephone
de Springhill	
Compagnie de Telephone Ste. Cecile de Frontenac Compagnie de Telephone
Ste. Romaine	
St. Rene Goupil de Marsboro	
St. Prosper de Rochester Syndicat de Telephone de
Val-Alain	
Syndicat de Telephone de
Ste. Emelie	
Compagnie de Telephone Ste. Francoise-Romaine.. Manitoulin Telephone Co. Gore Bay Telephone Co... La Cie de Telephone de
Ste. Methode	
La Cie de Telephone de
Stratford	
Compagnie de Telephone
de Lambton	
Syndicat de Telephone de
St. Adalbert	
Compagnie de Telephone St. Juste de Breteniere for-Mario L'Heureux....
Mr. Gerard Prevost	
Compagnie de Telephone
de St. Gerard	
Co-operative de Telephone de St. Eugene de Ladriere	
Mr. Isidore Ouellet	
Syndicat de Telephone de
Pelegrin	
Syndicat de Telephone de
Villeroy	
Syndicat de Telephone de
Beaurivage	
Compagnie de Telephone de Lotbiniere-Nicolet .... Compagnie de Telephone de St. Marie de Blandford	
Cie de Telephone de Parisville	
Syndicat de Telephone de
Fortierville	
La Co-operative de Telephone de Stornoway	
Date of grant authorized by order in council
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957. June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957. June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957. June 17, 1957. June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957. June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957.
June 17, 1957. June 17, 1957.
October 3, 1957.
October 3, 1957.
October 3, 1957.
October 3, 1957.
October 3, 1957. October 3, 1957. October 3, 1957. January 25, 1958.
1078	HOUSE OF
Questions	Date of grant authorized by
Name	order in
	council
Syndicat Co-operative de	
Telephone de Daveluy-ville		January 25, 1958.
Compagnie de Telephone	
St. Leon de Val Racine- Jean Marie Boisclair ....	March 29, 1958.
Lac a Busque de St. Benjamin	
Compagnie de Telephone	March 29, 1958.de Manseau	
Mr. Mario L'Heureux (M.	March 18, 1958.M. Gregoire) 	March 18, 1958.


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY
[Stage Direction]
CONTRACTORS* CLAIMS
Mr. Pigeon: 1.	Has the St. Lawrence seaway authority received any claims from the contractors since the beginning of work on the seaway?
2.	If so, what are the names of such contractors?
3.	What was the nature of the claims and for what reasons were they made?
Answer by: Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):
1. Yes.

2.	McNamara-Pigott-Peacock Construction Co. Ltd., Iroquois Constructors Ltd., McNamara Construction Co. Ltd., Miron & Freres Limitee, Walsh Canadian Construction Company Ltd., Northern Construction Co. & J. W. Stewart Ltd., Atlas Construction Co. Ltd., Canamont Construction Ltd. and Canit Construction Limited, Miron & Freres Limited and The Mannibec Construction Company Limited, Swansea Construction Co. Ltd,. Atlas-Winston Limited, United Waterways Constructors Ltd., Carriere des Trois Pistoles, Inc., Dominion Bridge Company Limited, Canadian Dredge & Dock Co. Ltd., S. D. Miller & Sons, Pentagon Construction Co. Ltd., J. D. Stirling Ltd., Canadian Vickers Limited, John Entwistle, P. Baillargeon Ltee, Rianco Construction Ltd.
3.	For extra compensation not authorized by the contracts on such grounds as a rising wage level, alleged undisclosed ground and water conditions, flooding of contract site, alleged interferences with scheduling of work, variations in quantities of work from those estimated in tender documents, additional costs of placing concrete in winter, disputed quantities and difficulties re disposal of excavated materials; and generally because of situations which, in the contractors' estimation, might afford a basis for additional payments.

Tuesday, February 17, 1959