1959-03-20

Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. In committee on Wednesday I claimed that bonds were advertised in units of up to $1 million, and the Minister of Finance said, "How ridiculous can you become?" I have here a pamphlet from the Bank of Canada, authorized by the Minister of Finance, indicating that these bonds were available in units of up to $1 million.


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member, in referring to this matter of the issuance of bonds in denominations of $1 million as well as smaller denominations, used this to base a statement that the government was interested in obtaining borrowings from big interests. The fact is that the denominations in which the last bonds were issued are precisely the denominations which have prevailed in government issues for some years. It suits the convenience of some purchasers of bonds-insurance companies, banks and others-to take them in these larger denominations; but the denominations are precisely those which have prevailed for some years. There are smaller denominations as well as the larger ones, and we are glad to have the opportunity of doing business with everybody who wishes to buy Dominion of Canada bonds on the terms on which they are offered. There is no justification whatever for the statement made by the hon. member that this was an attempt to tailor this issue to larger interests.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether he will be in a position soon to announce the appointment of a commissioner of the R.C.M.P., and whether he can give the house an assurance that the appointment will be made from within the force?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I think that question should be appropriately asked of the Minister of Justice.


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Jusiice):: Mr. Speaker, I have had indications of concern about this matter from other hon. members, particularly the hon. member for Athabasca. In reply I should say that no consideration whatsoever has been given, or is being given, to the appointment of someone from outside the force as commissioner; no consideration whatsoever. We expect in the immediate future to be making a recommendation for the appointment of a commissioner from within the R.C.M. police, and as soon as the recommendation has been dealt with an appropriate announcement will be made.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The reason I asked the question of the Prime Minister was that the commissioner, as I understood it, has the status of a deputy minister; that therefore the appointment was to be made by order in council on the recommendation of the Prime Minister.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I can understand that, but this matter comes particularly under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Justice, and I know the Leader of the Opposition will be very pleased at the answer which represents the viewpoint of the government.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: I wonder if the Prime Minister could tell the house whether, following the important visit of Prime Minister Macmillan and Mr. Lloyd to the United States, arrangements have been made with the Canadian government for further consultations on the ministerial level, or what steps will be taken for further consultation on these very important questions?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, at the moment I have nothing to report in that connection. I outlined last evening something of the general situation. Of course this is a matter which is constantly before us, and we intend to exert every influence to the end that tensions may be relieved or diminished.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder if the Prime Minister can say whether a report will be made to him following these important discussions, in any event?


John George Diefenbaker: There is continued communication, Mr. Speaker, and this government is kept fully advised as to those things which are happening which are of world interest and are known to other allied countries.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: May I ask
the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he is not now in a position to say that there was no foundation in fact for the story suggested the day before yesterday, and referred to by the Leader of the Opposition by way of interrogation, to the effect that the United States government was going to relax its mandatory curbs on Canadian oil imports on the ground of national security? Is it not a fact that there is now found to be no foundation for the story whatsoever?


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I can find no foundation in fact for the story.



SALT FISH


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Tucker (Trinity-Conception):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is the minister in a position today to give the statement on salt fish marketing which he promised would be given before the Easter recess?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, this is a
repetition of a question which was asked me on March 18, when I gave an assurance that I would make a statement on this matter before the house rises for the Easter recess.


Mr. Pickersgill:: When does the minister propose to make it?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Before the Easter recess.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, last evening the hon.

member for Laurier directed a question to me which will be found on page 2050 of Hansard. The question was as follows:
I should like to know if arrangements have been made or are being made to renew the commonwealth air agreement. The Prime Minister will probably remember that the late secretary of state for external affairs on two occasions said that the air agreement had been extended first to February 6 and later to March 11.
On February 6 and February 17 the house was informed that Canada was pressing for a continuation of air services between Australia and Canada which were endangered by technical considerations concerning the frequency and capacity of flights. Full discussion of the present bilateral air agreement will take place in Australia early in April, and my hope is that the Australian government, like the Canadian government, desires to maintain and perhaps extend this tangible and mutually beneficial link between the two countries. Meanwhile authority has been granted to extend the temporary permits for weekly flights while discussions take place.



LIVESTOCK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. A. Winkler (Grey-Bruce):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister noticed in this morning's press a statement emanating from Toronto with respect to compensation for animals lost through rabies? If so, would the minister evaluate these reports and perhaps give the house any further information he has concerning this matter?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I saw this statement, and I may say that we have been carrying on negotiations with the Ontario department of agriculture with regard to working out a joint dominion, provincial and municipal form of assistance to those who have lost animals as a result of rabies. The federal Department of Agriculture will share in a county-provincial program to indemnify Ontario farmers who suffer heavy livestock losses from such epidemics. Other provinces which may wish to enter into a similar scheme would, of course, be eligible.
Responsibility for initiating the plan will rest with the county authorities. They will value the animals, pay the owners, and then will be eligible for reimbursement to the extent of 80 per cent of the amount paid, which will be shared equally by the province and the federal government. In short, the

cost will be shared 20 per cent by the county, 40 per cent by the province and 40 per cent by the federal government.
Compensation will be paid on animals certified by federal veterinarians as having died from rabies on or after April 1, 1958. Maximum values for compensation purposes will be $250 for cattle, $100 for horses, and $40 for sheep, swine and goats. The livestock toll recorded from April 1, 1958, to February 28 this year included 1,149 cattle, 48 horses, 122 sheep, 19 hogs and 1 goat.
The indemnification program is not being undertaken as a disease control measure under the provisions of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act. The arrangements will, however, help to offset heavy economic losses, and encourage farmers to report suspected rabies infection. This in turn will aid federal veterinarians in locating disease outbreaks and instituting control measures.



INDIAN AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon.	J. W.	Pickersgill (Bonavista-
Twillingafe): In view of recent press reports I wonder whether the hon. lady, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, could report to the house on the peace negotiations she has been carrying on with the Six Nations Indians.
Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough (Minisier of Citizenship and Immigration):: I think they were faithfully reported in the press. It is my hope that the matter has now been settled amicably. I cannot make any report with regard to prosecutions that are under way because, as the hon. member knows, they are being handled this morning in Brantford, but it is our expectation that these also will be handled in a manner that will meet with the approval of those concerned. The elected council will be meeting shortly and we will have a report from them, but my understanding of the situation is that all is now quiet on the Six Nations reserve.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the hon. lady on her capacity to make peace, but I was a little disturbed and I think perhaps other hon. members were disturbed by a report that I heard about which I should like to ask the hon. lady, to the effect that she has directed the magistrate's court to give suspended sentences. I am sure the hon. lady would like an opportunity to deny that report.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, at no time did I see or hear any such report, and I would never have the temerity at any time
Inquiries of the Ministry to interfere with the courts. I did agree to suggest to the Minister of Justice that he might care to handle the matter in whatever manner was appropriate within his own department.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I should ask the hon. lady if she would not like an opportunity to correct the reports that were broadcast on the C.B.C. this morning.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Speaker, I have no desire to correct something that I have not seen nor heard.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquiilam):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance. In view of the announcement yesterday that our government's treasury bills are bearing an all-time high interest rate, namely 4.22 per cent, can the minister explain the reason for the growing spread between interest rates on United States and Canadian treasury bills, and is the government contemplating any action to reduce our bank rediscount rate so as to aid economic recovery and provide employment?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. This is a very large order the hon. member is proposing. I do not see how it could possibly be dealt with in a short reply and I suggest that it be reserved for a more appropriate occasion.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order you have raised, I would suggest that this question about central bank rediscount rates is an important question and one that should be raised in the house. In addition to that, over a period of many years the Minister of Finance himself very frequently raised this very important question. While it may be true that the phrasing should have been more direct, that is for Your Honour to decide, but with great deference I would submit that the subject matter of the question is very much in order.


Mr. Speaker:: I am dealing only with the question which was proposed. It was a series of questions, bringing in unemployment as well as interest rates, and I do not see that I could really allow that question to proceed as phrased.


Erhart Regier: In that case, Mr. Speaker, may I reword what I am after. I would ask the minister if the government is contemplating
2072	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry any moves that will halt our rapidly rising interest rates on government treasury bills.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member on reflection will realize that this is not the sort of matter that is dealt with on the orders of the day. So far as measures are concerned that would be of interest to people operating in the money markets, I think he will appreciate that we do not give out that kind of information publicly. As to matters pertaining to government policy, those will be made known to the house on the proper occasion.
(Translation):



INQUIRY AS TO AUTHORITY REQUIRED FOR BILINGUAL DOCUMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jean-Paul Racine (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Secretary of State a question?
Could the Secretary of State tell this house if cabinet approval was required for the printing of bilingual House of Commons letterheads for the use of hon. members?


Hon. Henri Courtemanche (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.


Jean-Paul Racine: In that case, Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the minister a supplementary question.
Is the issue of negotiable government instruments subject to the approval of the cabinet and of parliament?


Henri Courtemanche: The answer is yes.


Mr. Caron:: Oh no, it is not.

On the orders of the day:


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Secretary of State a question arising from the answer he gave a moment ago. Could he tell us if special legislation was needed for the issue of bilingual stamps, under Mr. Veniot, and the issue of bilingual money under the Mackenzie King administration?
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It seems to me that the hon. member is asking questions about a matter on the order paper which is before the house for determination.


Mr. Chevrier:: No, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Did he refer to bilingual stamps or bilingual cheques?


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Speaker, an answer was given to a question a while ago-


Mr. Speaker:: I would ask the hon. member to address himself to the difficulty which I raised, namely that this matter is on the order paper for determination by the house.


Lionel Chevrier: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I say this. The question which the hon. member asked is not one which is now on the order paper. He was directing his question to bilingual stamps and bilingual money, and it was in reply to a question answered already by the Secretary of State. I therefore submit with deference that his question is in order.


Mr. Speaker:: Then I withdraw the objection I raised. I thought the translation was perhaps faulty in referring to bilingual stamps, because I understand we have bilingual stamps.
(Translation):


Alexis Pierre Caron: Mr. Speaker, that is precisely the point. In view of the earlier answer by the hon. Secretary of State, I wanted to know from him, because he has the relevant records on hand, if special legislation was needed for the issue of bilingual stamps under Mr. Veniot, and the issue of bilingual money under the Mackenzie King administration.


Some hon. Members:: Under the Bennett government.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Under the Bennett administration there were two issues of coins, one in French and the other in English.


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Speaker, I shall check the facts and inform the hon. member later.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture a question.
Has the minister considered the possibility of stabilizing maple product prices?
(Text):


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I should like to thank
the hon. member for giving me notice of this question, and in reply would say that in 1958 there were extensive discussions between the groups producing maple sugar and maple products and the stabilization board. As a result of those discussions it was agreed that the Agricultural Products Co-Operative Marketing Act provided the most appropriate

basis for dealing with marketing problems in the Quebec maple products industry, rather than putting those products under price supports under the Agricultural Stabilization Act.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gerard Loiselle (Si. Ann):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Transport whether he is aware of the press report this morning that the Canadian National Railways firemen intend to strike? If so, has he any comment to make on it?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: I saw the report, Mr. Speaker, and I have no comment to make on it.



TORONTO


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. A. Cathers (York North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. The Toronto press of March 12 carried stories of Canadian National plans for the creation of a large freight marshalling yard and new railway lines required to give access to this yard. Is the minister in a position to make a statement with regard to these proposals, and can he advise the house respecting the improvement in commuter services which can be made when these facilities have been completed?


George Harris Hees: I wish to thank the hon. member for advising me of his intention to ask this question. For some time now the Canadian National Railways has been studying its freight handling facilities serving metropolitan Toronto, and has included in its 1959 capital budget an item covering the acquisition of land required for the construction of a large marshalling yard in the township of Vaughan, together with necessary connecting trackage. Parliament in due course will be asked to pass enabling legislation.
With regard to commuter service, when the new yard and access lines have been built the present congestion in the approaches to the terminal area will be lessened, which should make physically possible additional commuter operations. The management of the railway has already initiated preliminary studies in anticipation of an approach on behalf of the Toronto area commuters, and is prepared to discuss with the authorities concerned the question of increasing its commuter operations in the greater Toronto area on the understanding that the railway will
Inquiries of the Ministry be able to recover from fares and otherwise the full costs of such services.


Mr. Frank McGee (York-Scarborough):: May
I ask a supplementary question. Did I understand the minister to say in his statement that if the municipalities concerned offered to subsidize this operation the railway would inaugurate additional commuter services?


George Harris Hees: That is correct.



CIVIL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Has the minister read the news report in the Regina Leader-Post, dated March 16, headed "No Defence Is Claimed". I raise this question because it is a most disturbing news report. It states in part:
The report, prepared by Lieutenant General Howard Graham, is also said to claim that the Canadian civil defence organization, for practical purposes, is non-existent.
Would the minister inform the house if there is a basis in fact for this news report?


Hon. J. W. Monteith (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I have not actually seen the news report referred to, but I can assure the hon. member that there is no basis in fact for such a statement.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask
the Minister of National Health and Welfare a supplementary question, arising out of that posed by the hon. member for Kootenay West. Can the minister confirm whether or not it is true that part of the functions of civil defence, now under his authority, are to be transferred to the office of the privy council, and certain other portions of his responsibilities to the Minister of National Defence?


Jay Waldo Monteith: Mr. Speaker, in answer to a question on Wednesday last I said that a statement would be made in the house either by the end of this week or, at the very latest, in the first part of next week.



WATER RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I have a question to direct to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and I regret that I was not able to give him notice of it. I wonder if the minister is able to indicate

Inquiries of the Ministry whether the Fraser river board will be reappointed so that it may continue its existence and activities beyond the end of this month which, under present arrangements, is the date upon which the board must cease to function.


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: This matter is under discussion and negotiation between the two governments, and when this process has been completed an announcement will be made.


Frank Howard: I wonder if the minister has any hope that the negotiations or discussions will be completed before the end of this month. Could he give any indication of that?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Yes, the minister is hoping that the negotiations can be completed by the end of this month.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder if I may ask the minister from Newfoundland whether he was invited by the mayor of Bell Island to visit Newfoundland to discuss the impending lay-offs in the iron mines, and if so what his intentions are in this regard.


Hon. W. J. Browne (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, I did receive an invitation from the mayor of Bell Island, after he had thanked me for the services I had already given in connection with the matter. I might say that if the ferries are operating between Portugal Cove and Bell Island I intend to visit there during the Easter recess.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a supplementary question, may I ask the minister whether the lay-offs, which I believe were scheduled to take place tomorrow or the next day, are going to take place, or whether the minister has been successful in having them postponed?


Mr. Speaker:: I am not sure under what heading of the minister's responsibility this comes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps I might clarify it. The minister said he had received thanks from the mayor of Bell Island for services he had rendered. I was seeking to find out what the services were.


Mr. Browne (St. John's Wesi):: If I may be
permitted to reply, the mines are not going to close tomorrow.



A. V. ROE COMPANY INQUIRY AS TO GOVERNMENT ACTION TO RELIEVE UNEMPLOYMENT SITUATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder if the Prime Minister could bring the house up to date as to what progress has been made in obtaining additional contracts for the A. V. Roe industry, and more particularly what success he has encountered in doing those things which would provide more employment for the unemployed persons?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think this is one of those questions that are totally inappropriate on the orders of the day.


Hazen Robert Argue: I would ask the Prime Minister if he does not think the widespread unemployment in the Avro industry is an important matter upon which to rise on orders of the day.


John George Diefenbaker: I would ask the hon. gentleman whether the impropriety of asking a question that is inappropriate on orders of the day justifies the kind of observation he has made.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Hazen Robert Argue: I would remind the Prime Minister that the Minister of Finance, in the Prime Minister's absence on February 27, made a comprehensive statement of actions the government was taking with regard to unemployment in this industry. I suggest it is most appropriate to ask whether or not any further developments have taken place since that time.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that is a question that is proper, and I have no hesitation in saying there has been further and continued consultation in respect of this matter, and there has been a canvass made with the principals of the company for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not available contracts might be assured to that company, and that is the position of affairs. The company is engaged in endeavouring to secure contracts which would be available or should be available to that company if it is able to meet the competition that exists.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (Si. Denis):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question of the Prime Minister. I think last week he promised me an answer


as far as the civil service commission was concerned and as to the jurisdiction of the Postmaster General in connection with the mail carriers. As the newspaper says today, there will be a large meeting again in connection with the civil service commission and the salaries of the postal employees. Possibly the Prime Minister could give us an answer as to who is going to see about the matter of those grievances, and who is going to try to settle them before it is too late.


John George Diefenbaker: I thank my hon. friend for the very courteous way in which he has presented a question that I should have answered the other day. However, I will let him have an answer on Monday, and I think that will satisfy him.



SHIPPING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. M. Fisher (Port Arthur):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. It is a repetition of a question I asked on February 13. The fact that he took it as notice and has not answered it might indicate that it was not urgent. However, it dealt with shipping and trade and the question of United States subsidization of ships calling at Canadian ports in this coming season. The season is very close to us. Not only one line but another line is being considered in the United States for subsidization. I would ask the minister whether any consideration has been given to protecting Canadian shipping interests against this particular kind of subsidized competition.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I will look back at the question that was put forward on February 13. I think the matter properly lies with another department, but we will give this matter consideration.



NORTHWEST TERRITORIES ACT


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill C-26, to amend the Northwest Territories Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, amendments read the second time and concurred in.
20, 1959	2075
Supply-Labour SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sevigny in the chair.
The Chairman:: The house in committee of supply on further supplementary estimates: Department of Labour, vote 751, found at page 5 of further supplementary estimates, the details on page 19. Shall vote 751 carry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we revert to vote No. 750, which was the one allowed to stand last night.
DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR Special services-
750.	To provide for expenses of the special services branch including expenses for the promotion of a program for combating seasonal unemployment, the organization and use of workers for farming and related industries and assistance to the provinces under agreements entered into with the provinces by the Minister of Labour with the approval of the governor in council, and the movement, reception, supervision and welfare of workers from outside Canada to work on farms and other essential employment where Canadian labour is not available to meet the need-further amount required, $100,000.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Shall vote 750 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the minister going to give the answers now?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I was asked questions last night concerning expenditures and commitments to date in connection with the publicity program undertaken with a view to assisting in meeting the problem of seasonal unemployment in the winter, in the light of recommendations made last summer by the national winter employment conference which was convened in Ottawa. The information as to expenditures and commitments to date is as follows. The amount actually expended to March 20 is $127,579.36. That amount was devoted to the following purposes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister just tell us what was the total of the vote?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The total amount proposed for the item will be $297,500. I have indicated that of that sum the amount expended to March 20 is $127,579.36. The balance required to March 31 is estimated at $169,920.64. I shall now give the breakdown of the amount actually expended to March 20.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am trying to get these figures accurately. If the minister would not mind an interruption, I should like to get confirmations of my understanding. He said that $127,000 had been spent.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.

Supply-Labour


John Whitney Pickersgill: And that the vote was $297,500?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister tell us how much was spent out of the unforeseen vote?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I propose to do that. I am dealing now with the amount actually expended: newspaper publicity, $29,350.40; radio, $33,860.02; television, $31,507.64; films, $250; posters, streamers, staffers, postal dies, recording tapes, etc., $32,611.36, making a total of $127,579.36. The commitments to the end of this month-that is the end of the fiscal year-including those sums actually expended amount to $295,000 at this present time. That sum is divided as follows: newspaper publicity, $121,000; radio, $38,500; television, $33,500; films, $8,000, and posters, streamers, staffers, postal dies, recording tapes, advertising production costs, $94,000, making a total of $295,000.
This total of $297,500 estimated to be required to March 31 is proposed to be provided as follows. The sum of $62,300 was transferred within this item from surpluses from other allotments within the scope of the vote at the last session. That has left actual requirements of $235,200. I pointed out last night that in the main estimates an aggregate of $140,200 had been provided, and we are now proposing to add $95,000 to this sum by the present item.
The remaining question was as to the advertising agency which had been engaged for this purpose. That agency is the McKim agency of Toronto, and the expenditures to March 20 are $95,140.06 for their work in relation to the program. The expenditures for the publicity undertaken and arranged by them and the commitments to March 31 through that agency will amount to $242,500. The balance of the proposed aggregate appropriation is being spent by the department itself on outlays through the queen's printer, unemployment insurance offices, and media of that nature.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could the minister tell me at what date the department first engaged the services of the McKim agency?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot give my hon. friend the date on which they were retained for this particular purpose, but I Will find out and communicate with him.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, may I ask what is the percentage on which McKim is working on this particular contract?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think my hon. friend is aware that advertising agencies do not make any charge or fee direct to the

person who engages their services. In all these cases their services are recompensed by arrangements which they make with the medium with which they deal. There is a standard percentage, but that is no part of any agreement which the government has made with the agency.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I feel that this is a fundamental part of the cost. I understand that there are different rates not only for a single campaign but for different media within the campaign, and I am wondering whether any consideration has ever been given to checking or establishing a set rate for government work in that regard.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The government does not pay any fee for this service. It is standard practice in the advertising business, I am informed, that the regular charges are made by the various publicity media, in this case to the government, and the advertising agency simply collects its fee by arrangement with those who are proprietors of the media themselves.


Mr. Benidickson:: Just to clarify this point, Mr. Chairman, if the minister would inform me, I understood he said that the figure of $295,000 would cover not only commitments but expenditures made in the past, and commitments to March 31 of course, under the items of newspapers, radio, TV, films, posters, and so on. Is that correct?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes. The figure of $295,000 represents commitments made to March 31, including expenditures already made. This will leave $2,500 out of the $297,500 aggregate to take care of any possible additional commitments that might be made between now and the end of the month. But at the present time it would appear that the $295,000 will cover all commitments up to March 31 which have been entered into at this time.


William Moore Benidickson: The detail in the main estimates at page 258 presented the original forecast for newspaper, radio, film and other publicity as $140,200. The $295,000 which we refer to will be made up of this $140,200 plus the portion for that item which comes in this item for $100,000. Is that correct?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There is the sum
of $95,000 in this item for that purpose.


William Moore Benidickson: Yes, $95,000 plus certain surplus funds which were not used for other functions within the item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes,


William Moore Benidickson: That being so, I did not
understand when the minister said that under this item $95,000 had already been paid for services which were handled by the McKim

agency. I took him to say that there would be additional commitments to be paid to this agency. Did I get him right that it was $242,000, or was it $142,000?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No. The commitments through the McKim firm to March 31 of $242,500 of course include the expenditure already made through that firm to March 20 of $95,140.06.


Mr. Hellyer:: I wonder if the minister could tell us if all the moneys being spent or committed for newspaper advertising is spent in regard to newspapers printed in either the English or French languages?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not know that I quite follow my hon. friend's question. Is he asking me if it is all spent on newspapers which-


Paul Theodore Hellyer: If I may put it another way, is any part of it being spent in other than English or French language newspapers?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I will have to make inquiries about that. At the moment I do not think I can tell my hon. friend whether this type of advertising is confined to the larger dailies, which would mean English and French language newspapers, or whether any part of it has gone to the so-called ethnic press; but I will be glad to make inquiries about that and inform my hon. friend.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a rather hypothetical question and would like an opinion from the minister. I think it will be worth while to have some idea of the per capita cost of getting men back to work through such a campaign. If we accept the figure given I believe by the hon. member for Essex East, the winter work program has managed to employ approximately 30,000 people this winter. If the cost involved in putting 30,000 people to work is approximately $295,000, we have an approximate per capita cost of around $10 for each man put back to work under this winter work program.


Donald Methuen Fleming: My hon. friend very properly said his question was a hypothetical one, and I think it illustrates the danger of attempting to ask or deal with hypothetical questions. We are not dealing here with the government's own winter work program. We are dealing here with a publicity program that was undertaken by the government at the request of the national conference last summer, which included groups of employees, groups of employers and others, with a view to bringing home to Canadians in all walks of life the fact that there is work which can be done in
Supply-Labour
the winter months, thus providing employment. It was hoped that people would address themselves to the desirability, and very often the advantages, of having work done in the winter rather than in the seasons when in times past it has been more customary for people to have that type of work done.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, what we are dealing with, of course, is the expenditure of money for the purpose of putting people to work in the winter. I would ask the minister if he feels that the expenditure in question, which I think now totals $158,000 or some such figure, has been justified by the results achieved.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Naturally as chairman of the treasury board I have made it my business to inquire of the Department of Labour as to whether in their view the results have been commensurate with the expenditure. There can be no doubt that in their view the results have thoroughly justified this expenditure. I emphasize that this expanded publicity program was strongly recommended by the national conference which met last summer. That conference felt that a great deal could be accomplished if, by a publicity campaign, every effort were made to bring home to the average individual as well as to potential employers of all kinds the desirability of doing in the winter months all the work that could be done during those months, taking into account climatic factors, often with advantage as compared with other seasons of the year.
No one can isolate the results which flow from any particular effort of this kind. No one can say that because we spent $10,000 in publicity, certain jobs are created. It would take an army of mathematicians to gather information and then collate it before a result of that kind could be achieved. But it certainly is the view of the Department of Labour that this expenditure has fully justified itself and fully vindicated the recommendations of the national conference which was held last year.


Douglas Mason Fisher: While we are dealing with this subject I might mention one aspect of the campaign which gave a great deal of pleasure to certain people who live on the west side of Toronto. At the approaches to Royal York road there was one of those brilliant billboards in fluorescent red and blue saying "Do it Now." And on an accompanying billboard there was portrayed a very lithesome creature dressed in a glamorous satin gown and leaning back in a reclining posture. The impact of these two posters together delighted a great many people in that district, and

Supply-Labour
gave one the impression that whoever was responsible for this particular piece of advertising was showing initiative.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Last night, discussing this item, I had occasion to mention that earlier this session a complaint had been registered against the manner in which some of the unemployed in certain sections of this country, notably in a particular constituency in Manitoba, were given the opportunity to take advantage of the government's limited winter work program. The particular item now before the committee, while it is not concerned with the winter work program in a formal sense is, as the minister has indicated, connected with it as being supplementary to that work. Since this matter was raised we have had no satisfactory explanation of the stories which have circulated with regard to the manner in which these jobs have been handed out in some cases. I have here a copy of the Winnipeg Free Press of January 12, 1959. The heading is "I Hand Out the Jobs, says Minnedosa Tory" and the article says, in part:
Walter Weir, a prominent Minnedosa Progressive Conservative, says Nicholas Mandziuk, Conservative M.P. for Marquette riding, has given him the authority to hand out winter work jobs in Riding Mountain national park.
Mr. Weir, Minnedosa florist and undertaker and Conservative campaign manager in the Minnedosa riding for the last provincial election, heads a constituency-wide organization which has processed at least 80 of the 125 men now working on winter projects in the park.
Only a handful of the workers have been referred to the park by the Brandon employment office. Work projects in the park this winter are valued at $400,000.
If that story is true it certainly deserves some comment from the Minister of Labour or from the Minister of Finance who is now speaking on behalf of all government departments in presenting these estimates. For instance, here we have a story in the Toronto Star of February 19-


Donald Methuen Fleming: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman; the hon. gentleman is dealing with matters which, if they have any accuracy at all-and I am not making any comment on that at the moment-relate, I take it, to jobs provided by the government. This present item has nothing to do with jobs provided by the government. It is an item designed to provide sums for publicity to ask persons outside the government entirely to provide employment during the winter season. This has nothing to do with the government's employees at all, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman will have his opportunity at the proper time to raise his question. He will have his opportunity when the estimates of the Department of Labour are before the

committee of supply, but his point has no relevance at all to the present item.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The minister may make his argument on procedure, as he did last night, and I am prepared to make mine. I take strong issue with this attempt on the part of the Minister of Finance to abridge the discussion of items which have relevance to this particular matter.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The chairman will rule whether or not.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The item before the committee is a request for moneys to assist in the promotion of schemes designed to give work to men and women in this country, and I am now dealing with an allegation that some of the jobs made available as a result of a number of efforts, in-including this particular promotional scheme-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not this scheme.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I say that abuse and discrimination which are not in the national interest have resulted. That is the gist of this complaint, and the hon. gentleman does not further the passage of this estimate by taking this narrow procedural position.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Can we have a ruling on the point of order, Mr. Chairman?


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: We are not discussing or debating employment by the government itself, or the giving of government jobs. We are discussing, as mentioned in the item, the expenses of the special services branch, including expenses for the promotion of a program for combating seasonal unemployment. This has nothing to do with the normal employment practices of the government, and consequently I suggest to the hon. member for Essex East that he delay his remarks until the estimates of the Department of Labour come before the committee, at which time the raising of the matters to which he has referred would be in order,


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have great confidence in your chairmanship of this committee, and I am not going to press the matter further. I take this position without in any way binding myself with regard to future action, for I find it difficult to accept this ruling.
In commenting upon your ruling I simply express regret at this time that the Minister of Finance takes the position that this is not a matter to which a reply should be given at once. Undoubtedly the reason is that the minister has not available the necessary information to make the kind of reply that should be made, information that would be

available to him it he would meet the demands of the opposition and have the responsible ministers in their places replying to questions instead of the Minister of Finance undertaking to reply on behalf of every department of the government of our country.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Trinity asked a few moments ago about the placing of newspaper advertisements in newspapers published in languages other than English and French. I am informed that the advertising has been published in English and French newspapers and magazines.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the minister will recall that some time ago, over the objections of this side of the chamber, a starred question was made an order for return. That starred question asked among other things what was the total number of contracts given to the McKim advertising agency. I wonder if in view of the very large amount of business given it by this department the minister could tell us how much this company is receiving from other departments?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I have not that information. If it is a starred question I presume it will be asked in due course.


John Whitney Pickersgill: It has been asked and made an order for return.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then it will be brought down in due course in accordance with the order of the house. I do not have that information here.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Does the minister not think this is precisely the kind of information which surely should not have taken more than an hour of the time of his staff to assemble, and that should have been given to the committee before we were asked to vote this large sum of money to be spent by the McKim advertising agency?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vocational training co-ordination-
751.	To provide for carrying out the purposes of the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act and agreements made thereunder; to authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into agreements with any province on terms approved by the governor in council to provide financial assistance to vocational schools, and training under youth training projects and to provide for the expenditures thereunder and under vocational training agreements entered into in previous years-payments to the provinces-further amount required, $854,856.
Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, last evening in reply to a question I asked the Minister of
Supply-Labour
Finance, as reported at page 2064 of Hansard the hon. gentleman stated:
The fact is that Quebec does receive its full share.
I raised this question when we were discussing item No. 751. I would like to know if the minister is now in a position to tell us the exact amount received by the province of Quebec with respect to this item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I have further information to give my hon. friend and the committee on this subject. As the statement on page 2064 of Hansard indicates, Quebec does receive its full share. These agreements under the Vocational Training Co-Ordination Act are of course available to all provinces.
Following last night's discussion I checked up particularly in regard to Quebec's participation in the plan. I find that Quebec entered into a ten-year agreement originally in 1945 which provided for both capital and operational expenditures. Quebec participated fully in that agreement and in the two-year extension in 1955-56 and 1956-57 which followed. A new five-year agreement called the vocational and technical training agreement No. 2 was entered into, in the fiscal year 1957-58, with all the other provinces, but 1 am told that Quebec did not sign this agreement. Therefore there are no expenditures for Quebec contemplated under the item unless the Quebec government should decide to come in now and sign the agreement. Quebec did have a small expenditure in the fiscal year 1957-58 under the training of persons to fit them for the armed forces, but there will be no expenditure in 1958-59 for Quebec as far as can presently be determined.


Azellus Denis: What is the actual amount that was received by Quebec in 1957-58?


Donald Methuen Fleming: In the fiscal year 1957-58 it was $2,849, Mr. Chairman, for the training of persons to fit them for the armed forces.


Azellus Denis: It was not youth training.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, the training of persons to fit them for the armed forces.


Mr. Deschatelets:: Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell us how he reconciles the statement he made yesterday to the effect that Quebec does receive its full share? Are we to conclude from this that last evening the minister was speaking through his hat?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Chairman, I was not wearing any hat last night. When I spoke last evening I was not aware of the fact that Quebec had not extended the agreement within the past year. As I have indicated, the payments to Quebec ran up to

Supply-Labour
a year ago, the end crl the fiscal year 1957-58. Unless the Quebec government should suddenly come in between now and the end of the present fiscal year it is indicated that there will be no payments accruing to Quebec during the present fiscal year. I do emphasize, however, that the terms of this act and the agreements for which it provides are open to the province of Quebec as they are to all other provinces. I stressed last night that all the provinces are on an equal footing in this respect.


Azellus Denis: In other words, when the minister said Quebec was receiving its full share, he meant after all zero, or that it was receiving nothing. It received nothing this year or in the previous year. In 1957-58 I believe the province received not one cent. I base this statement on an answer given by the Minister of Labour to the hon. member for Papineau on March 3. On that occasion the hon. gentleman inquired about the amounts paid to Quebec each year since 1942 to date under the provisions of the Vocational Training Co-Ordination Act. In reply the Minister of Labour said that nothing was received in the fiscal year 1957-58 for youth training, vocational training school assistance, apprenticeship training or for unemployed workers. Of course we have no unemployed workers in the province of Quebec, and we do not need any money from Ottawa.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That information is correct, Mr. Chairman, but may I point out that there are various headings under the schedule. This payment to the province of Quebec in the fiscal year 1957-58 came under a later item, the training of persons to fit them for the armed forces. The amount was $2,849.


Azellus Denis: But we are discussing item No. 751 referring to vocational training coordination.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It comes under that.


Azellus Denis: The question addressed to the Minister of Labour was under the same item, and his answer was that nothing was received by Quebec. On the other hand the Minister of Finance says there was a payment of a few thousand dollars out of a possible $8 million total. I think these hon. gentlemen should compare their figures before it is too late.
This is the third set of supplementary estimates we have had. I believe the present government is using supplementary estimates rather too freely with respect to somewhat

large sums of money. I was reading Beau-chesne's fourth edition yesterday with respect to supplementary estimates, and this is what I find in citation No. 240:
Supplementary estimates, when treated as customary and as a matter of course, instead of being restricted to occasion of unforeseen contingencies, do more to destroy effectual parliamentary control than any other indirect method that could be devised.
And later:
The introduction of supplementary estimates of any considerable amount is really a breach of contract between the government and parliament, for when this is done the budget statement is destroyed, and in effect a supplementary budget is set up.
These are the words of a gentleman who is supposed to know something about these matters. The sum of $1 million out of a total of $8 million represents more than one-tenth of the whole amount. Those who are looking for suggestions from this side of the house say that we never give any suggestions. Next year the Minister of Finance should see that these supplementary estimates are reduced to the minimum so that the government, the house and the country will know exactly the amount of money that we are called upon to vote. That might change the picture altogether. If a few items in the supplementary estimates for every department were calculated in the millions of dollars, instead of having a deficit of $700 million we might go over $1 billion. This is one suggestion I humbly submit to the Minister of Finance.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I humbly receive
the suggestion of the hon. member in the same spirit.


Azellus Denis: Thank you. I would like a
vote on this item.


Lionel Chevrier: Call the yeas and nays.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Before it goes to a vote I wish to ask the minister whether he can tell us from his intimate knowledge of provincial-federal relations that the reason Quebec is not taking advantage of this particular vote is its stand on autonomy and its general attitude toward those questions.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have no specific communication as to the reasons the Quebec government has not seen fit to enter into the new five-year agreement.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Shall the item carry?
(Translation):


Azellus Denis: Mr. Chairman, I would like the yeas and nays to be recorded before this item is passed.
(Text):
I would like a vote called.


Lionel Chevrier: Question.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: All those in favour of
the item will please stand.
Item agreed to: Yeas, 91; nays, nil.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: I declare the resolution
carried.
Unemployment insurance commission-
752.	Administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act, including expenditures incurred in connection with other duties and responsibilities assumed and carried out as required by the governor in council on the recommendation of the Minister of Labour in accordance with section 4 of the act-further amount required, $2,227,000.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is a matter on which the Minister of Finance ought to be able to say something in addition to the statement by the Minister of Labour. We are asked now to vote the salaries of the staff of the unemployment insurance commission, those who administer this act. I am sure the unemployment insurance fund is a matter that has been engaging the attention of the Minister of Finance, as it should engage the attention of this house. We know that when the present administration took office the fund was substantial. While we have not the latest figures, it would seem that as we approach the end of the fiscal year 1958-59 the fund may be very considerably reduced. While I suspect that in the amendments to which it has been giving consideration the government may use a method of bolstering the fund, the fact is that if we have unemployment next fall and winter on any comparable basis with the present winter and last fall we may find that there will not be sufficient money in the fund to provide assistance to those who qualify under the act for unemployment benefits.
This is a matter of the greatest importance. We know that from July 1, 1941, when the fund was started, to 1953, the balance in the fund at the end of the year was always higher than at the beginning, and it reached a total of $921 million at December 31, 1953. At the end of 1957 the fund was roughly $877,470,144.39. At the end of 1958 the fund stood at $625,363,366.21. Assuming that at the end of this fiscal year there will have been paid out roughly something between $350 million and $400 million, it is evident on these calculations that in the absence of a replenishment of the fund there would not be enough money next fall or next winter to take care of all unemployed people, assuming that unemployment was on the same comparative level as we have had now for the past two winters. It would therefore be a most anomalous position for the government, for this parliament and for the country to find themselves in, that having had a fund of almost $1 billion, the situation I have
Supply-Labour
described could likely occur next fall and winter. We are certainly asking the Minister of Finance now to give us some indication as to whether or not that eventuality is possible. If it is, then the minister owes it to the house to indicate now, on this item, what are the government's intentions.
This is a matter of great consequence because the fund has been built up, as the Minister of Finance knows, largely as a result of the contributions made by employers and employees over the years. While the taxpayers generally in Canada have made a contribution, that contribution does not compare in any one year with the amounts contributed by the two basic contributors, namely the employee and the employer groups.
If the situation which I have pictured is valid, the government must accept responsibility for it. It will be recalled that last year the government brought forward further supplementary unemployment insurance benefits, and those benefits were paid out of the fund itself. I will admit that the government had a precedent at least for embarking on the principle of supplementary insurance benefits, because the preceding government had adopted the policy of providing benefits by way of supplementary payments in addition to the normal benefits. The difference between the practice followed by this administration and the preceding administration is that while we used moneys out of the fund for the purpose of paying these supplementary benefits, we replenished the fund every time there was any infringement made on the corpus of the fund. However, the supplementary benefits paid as a result of the policies recommended by hon. gentlemen opposite were paid out of the fund itself and there was no replenishment.
Now, it seems to us, as it seems to the employer and to the employee groups who have made representations to the government, that the moneys appropriated should come from the general taxpayers of the country, and the burden should not be imposed on employers and employees. If the fund is in the dangerous state to which I have referred, this will have been contributed to in part by the failure of the government to replenish the fund along the line I have indicated. If the situation is that the fund will be down so low as to warrant the possible conclusion at which I have arrived, assuming of course that there will be a high level of unemployment next winter and next fall, then the government should at the earliest opportunity indicate to the house what its intentions are.
The government advised the country in the speech from the throne that it proposed to bring in certain amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act. We have been

Supply-Labour
pressing for those amendments ever since the beginning of the session. We had hoped even the other day to elicit from the Minister of Labour some assurance that the government's policy with regard to these amendments would be made known before we recessed, in order that we might have an opportunity to see if these amendments would in any way bring assistance to the thousands who are out of work in our country.
I ask the Minister of Finance now to tell us what is the present state of the fund. What steps are going to be taken by the government to maintain the integrity of the fund? I ask whether or not those steps are capable of providing for an emergency, which we all hope will not eventuate, in 1959-60; but if it eventuates those steps must be such as would provide these benefits for those who have qualified as a result of their contributions as a matter of right, and not simply as a matter of relief as a result of the charitable instincts of the people of Canada.
This is a matter of the greatest importance. We have been proud, since 1941, of the Unemployment Insurance Act and of its great social consequence. We have referred with pride to the strength of the fund which now, as a result of the unemployment in our country, has reached what could be, in the absence of certain corrective measures, a dangerous point. I ask the Minister of Finance to give us an assurance with regard to this matter at the earliest moment.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Before the Minister of Finance replies, although I do not wish to take too much of the time of the committee I do want to say that we in this group are interested in this question in the same way as the hon. member for Essex East is interested. We would like to hear the answers to the questions he has raised, and we agree as to the importance of this matter.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This item relates to the cost of administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act. It has no bearing whatever on the fund. The fund is created under the act by contributions, and appears in the estimates each year as a statutory item. This item that is now before the committee has nothing to do with the financing of the fund itself at all.
My hon. friend knows quite well that the information he is asking cannot be given to the house until the legislation is introduced. I have no intention whatever of standing here today and outlining the terms of any legislation that may be introduced. The house is aware of the statement made in the speech from the throne that amendments to the act will be forthcoming. Certainly it

would be highly improper, not only inappropriate but improper, to answer the questions of the hon. member for Essex East in that regard, because this item relates purely and simply to the cost of administration of the act.
As hon. members will see on reference to the details of the estimates on page 19, it is almost entirely a matter of salaries. There are some three other items, but this additional amount required is made up very largely of the salaries of employees of the unemployment insurance commission.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am not going to press the minister to give us the details of legislation which has not been presented to the house. I did not ask for that. What I asked was whether or not the government was taking corrective steps, through these amendments, by way of further contributions to be made or further categories of employees to be included. I just wanted some indication in a general way.
I certainly do have a right and I think we have a right in this house, to ask the minister about the state of the fund. We are now asked to vote salaries and wages to the extent of $1,762,000 for these employees in the unemployment insurance commission. If it is not proper to ask under this supplementary item as to the state of the fund, then I certainly do not understand the elementary practices and procedures of this house. My hon. friend could retort, of course, that that is evident. Surely when we have to vote salaries for the staff of the unemployment insurance commission it is proper to ask the Minister of Finance how much money now reposes in the fund, so we can gain some idea as to the state in which the fund will be in the ensuing fiscal year, 1959-60. That is the question I asked of the Minister of Finance, and I would hope he will not be reluctant to give us that information at once.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the statistics on the fund are issued from time to time, and no one knows that better than the hon. gentleman. They appear in the Labour Gazette from month to month. I do not pretend to have here any figures later than the last published figures.
I emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that the vote we are discussing has nothing whatever to do with the amount standing to the credit of the fund. Everyone knows that the fund has been drawn upon to meet unemployment; that is the purpose of the fund. My hon. friend asked me for a statement as to what measures the government proposes to take to replenish the fund. I shall have to

ask my hon. friend to wait for the announcement of those measures in due course. We are here dealing, Mr. Chairman, with the amount required to provide for the administration of this fund to March 31. My friend is asking me for a statement on future policy as applied to the next succeeding fiscal year or years. I must confine myself to the matter that is before the house and, Mr. Chairman, there is not a cent in this item that has any bearing whatever on the size of the fund.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Will the Minister of Finance tell me where I can get the figures on the fund with reference to expenditures made since January 15, 1959?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Well, I presume from time to time such information will be available. My hon. friend has been at this long enough to know you cannot just have the figures issued immediately, and the unemployment insurance commission publishes these figures as they become available.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: My hon. friend said month by month.


Donald Methuen Fleming: As they become available.


Murdo William Martin: He said every month.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I referred to the Labour Gazette, but there are other publications as well. My hon. friend is aware of that.


Murdo William Martin: I simply want to leave this matter by saying it is important and serious. I regret that the Minister of Finance cannot satisfy us as to the present state of the fund. This is a matter that is engaging the interest of many people in this country at this time, and the reply made by the minister will certainly not be very heartening.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have a figure at the end of January, 15 days later than the period mentioned by my hon. friend. The sum standing to the credit of the fund, as I am informed, at January 31, 1959 was $586,990,000.


Murdo William Martin: So my fears are right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Your fears are never right.


Murdo William Martin: Oh, yes, they are.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The Martin bureau of statistics again!


Mr. Robichaud:: The minister has just stated that a large part of this appropriation will be
Supply-Labour
used to pay salaries and wages under the unemployment insurance commission. In fact, on page 19 it is shown that $1,762,000 will be used for salaries and wages. Can the minister tell us whether part of this money will also be used to pay salaries or commissions of special agents who have been appointed recently by the unemployment insurance commission? In fact 46 agents were appointed, 23 of whom were recommended by the local office managers, 22 by the Minister of Labour and one by a local postmaster. Can the minister tell us what part of this item will be used to pay the salary or commission of these agents?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am not aware of the persons to whom my hon. friend refers. However, I point out to him that this item is for the payment of those persons in the civil service who are employees of the unemployment insurance commission. As to the persons referred to by my hon. friend, I have not heard of them. If he will give me more information about them I shall be glad to obtain that information and send it to him.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I think the minister will find-I have not the date here but I think it was February 27-that in a reply to a question which I addressed to the Minister of Labour the house was informed that 46 agents had been appointed under the unemployment insurance commission. The commission must require funds in order to pay these agents. We want to find out whether they are going to be paid from part of this appropriation which we are being asked to vote today. I think we have the right to know what is the estimate of the department or of the commission for the payment of such agents.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall be glad to obtain that information for my hon. friend and convey it to him.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to allow this vote to pass without making one or two observations about what I believe to have been a failure of the government and a failure of the Minister of Labour -and I am very sorry that he is not here when I am saying this-to honour a commitment which was made to one class of persons who are covered by the unemployment insurance commission. I am not going to take the time of the committee to read the letter which I wrote to the Prime Minister on October 21, 1958 about the fishermen in Newfoundland, covered by unemployment insurance, whose plight was serious because of a complete failure of the fishery in many parts of the east coast last summer; and which plight in my letter I suggested could have been dealt with through the agency of the

Supply-Labour
unemployment insurance commission. However, I want to draw the attention of the committee to the reply I received from the Prime Minister on October 28, in which he said:
X wish to acknowledge your letter of October 21st concerning the situation among the cod fishermen on the northeast coast of Newfoundland.
I assure you that the matter is being looked into thoroughly by my colleagues the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Fisheries, to whom I have forwarded copies of your letter.
As hon. members know, the Prime Minister was absent from the country from that time on until about Christmas. On December 1, when the fishermen who had enough stamps would have qualified for unemployment insurance, I wrote again to the Minister of Labour, from whom I have had nothing but a bare acknowledgement up to this time, to ask him what had happened to this commitment of the Prime Minister that this matter was going to be considered by his colleagues. This matter was, I might say, of real urgency to a class of persons who were promised by the Prime Minister about a year ago-and I have in my hand a complete report of a speech which the Prime Minister made at Charlottetown on this very subject-that no one would suffer. I wrote to the Minister of Labour on December 1 as follows:
On October 28, the Prime Minister acknowledged the letter I wrote to him on October 21, about the inability of the fishermen in Newfoundland to qualify for unemployment insurance because of the failure this year of the cod fishery. Mr. Diefenbaker assured me that the matter was being looked into thoroughly by his colleagues, the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Fisheries.
December 1, as you are aware, is the first day on which seasonal benefits can be paid under the unemployment insurance law and I am sure most of the fishermen who, through no fault of their own, cannot qualify for seasonal benefits will be greatly disappointed that no decision has yet been announced by the government about the suggestion for emergency "crop failure" benefits X made in my letter.
I am sure you realize, as I know the Minister of Fisheries who has been in Newfoundland does, that the need is urgent and that many fishermen have already been obliged to accept relief.
The method of meeting the problem suggested in my letter would be simple to administer and fair to the fishermen, but if the method is not acceptable to the government, I strongly urge that action be taken in some other way to meet this pressing need.
The government has seen fit to make $200 available to every grain farmer whether he needs it or not. There can be no question of the need of the fishermen and one way to meet their problem would be a straight payment across the board to them as is being made to the farmers.
Whatever the method, there is urgent need for action now to prevent actual suffering-
That is the suffering the Prime Minister promised us would not exist while he was Prime Minister; and he promised it right
[Mr. PickersgillJ
across this country only a year ago when he was seeking the support of the people.
-and I appeal to the government to act without delay.
I am sending copies of this letter to the Acting Prime Minister and to the Minister of Fisheries.
Of course both ministers were extremely polite in acknowledging my letter. I appreciate their courtesy and I thank them for it. But apparently that is all that happened, because on the second day of the session, as reported at page 16 of Hansard for January 16, 1959 I asked the Prime Minister this question:
I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether the government is going to take any action to relieve the distress caused by the failure of the cod fishery in Newfoundland, about which he will recall I wrote him last October, and which he advised me the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Fisheries were looking into urgently?
I stress the word "urgently", Mr. Speaker. This is a fair sample of what the present government understands by that word "urgently". The Prime Minister replied:
Mr. Speaker, the answer is still applicable.
Then I added:
I wonder if I might ask a supplementary question. Does the Prime Minister realize that half the fishermen on the northeast coast of Newfoundland have been forced on relief because of the failure of the government to act?
The Prime Minister, with his usual courtesy, gave no reply to that question. Then on January 20, as reported at page 77 of Hansard, I asked the Minister of Labour a question supplementary to questions that were asked by several other hon. members, including the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Essex East, with regard to labour conditions and to which I think the answers were uniformly unsatisfactory. I asked this question:
May I ask a supplementary question. Is it not true that fishermen are not included this year-
That was in the figures the minister was giving.
-and is the minister's answer that no consideration is being given to a reduction in the number of stamps required also applicable to fishermen; because the minister will recall that he told me the opposite quite recently.
The minister told me in his letter that the matter was under consideration, and he then came into the house and in an offhand way said it was not being considered at all.


Mr. Starr:: In the first part of his question the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is again confused.
I was not confused, sir; I knew perfectly well what I was asking. I think it was the minister who was somewhat confused, because he was referring to the national

registration figures in which the fishermen were not included. I do not know yet what that means, and I do not think the minister knew, nor do I think he could explain today. Then the minister went on:
Everyone seeking work is included in these dominion bureau of statistics figures, and the qualification period for unemployment insurance also applies to fishermen.


John Whitney Pickersgill: In other words the government has ceased-


Mr. Speaker:: I hope the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is not going to enter into a debate on this matter.
Of course I did then, as I always do, Mr. Chairman, comply with the direction of the Chair. Then I continued:
No, I simply want to clarify the minister's answer. The question I was going to ask the minister-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.
No doubt the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi was amongst those who said "Sit down", showing the respect that some hon. members have for the rights of free speech in this chamber.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member a supplementary question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have a supplementary question, and it is this. Did I understand the minister to say consideration is no longer being given to a reduction in the number of stamps required by fishermen for unemployment insurance?


Michael Starr: I said, sir, no consideration is being given to reducing the 15 stamps that are required for seasonal benefits at the moment, and that includes everyone.
On January 16 the Prime Minister said the matter was still being considered. On January 20 the Minister of Labour said no consideration was being given to it. I wanted to ask the Minister of Labour if he had been in his place in the chamber, as he ought to have been when asking for S2| million more to administer the unemployment insurance commission, instead of leaving it to the Minister of Finance who seems to be equally uniformed about all the estimates he is bringing before us, to tell us precisely what happened between January 16, when the Prime Minister said the matter was still being considered, and January 20 when the Minister of Labour said no consideration was being given to the matter at all.
If the Minister of Finance cannot reply to that question perhaps the minister from Newfoundland, who is a member of the cabinet, though his interventions on behalf of Newfoundland in this chamber have not been very frequent since he was returned to this parliament, would care to tell us what happened between January 16 and 20. What consideration did the government give, as the Prime Minister promised, or was this just another of those promises? I think we are 66968-9-132
Supply-Labour
entitled to know what happened between January 16, when the Prime Minister said this matter was being considered, and January 20 when the Minister of Labour said that no consideration was being given to the matter.
Perhaps the minister would like to tell us right away what it was. Perhaps the minister would like to tell us why there was no consideration when over $40 million was voted for the grain growers, which we supported and which we in this party voted for, those who represent fishing ridings as well as everyone else; let there be no mistake that we voted for it, because we realized that there was a difficult situation in the prairie provinces. We voted for it even though we thought it was a bad way to do it, because we thought something needed to be done. But here in the fisheries was a situation where something needed to be done even more urgently, where the need was far greater; but all we get from the Minister of Labour is the statement that no consideration is being given. I repeat, no consideration is being given.
I think before we are asked to vote another $2J million, because of the shocking estimating which has been done by someone, either by the Department of Labour or the minister, we ought to know what is being done in this connection. They reduced this item in the main estimates by nearly $1 million in order perhaps to show that what they were asking for was not as great as they knew they would need. Now they come and ask for $2J million more, which is a fine example of careful and accurate estimating such as has been very characteristic of the Minister of Finance.
But I do not want to be diverted from my main point, which is this. I would like the Minister of Finance or the minister from Newfoundland to tell us what consideration was given to these proposals which the Prime Minister promised would be considered, and what reason the government had for rejecting them and saying that the fishermen, who had a failure of their crop which drove about half of them on to relief, were not deserving of any consideration. Presumably the government decided they were not suffering, and so the Prime Minister's promise of a year ago did not apply to them. I would like to tell the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and the minister from Newfoundland that the fishermen of that province are not going to forget this neglect.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall item 752 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is not the minister going to answer?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend knows perfectly well that we

Supply-Labour
are dealing here not with the terms under which persons qualify for the payment of unemployment insurance out of the fund: we are dealing with an item which pertains simply to the cost of administration, an intern for which the government bears the expense. This is very largely a matter of additional salaries required for the staff of the unemployment insurance commission. The hon. gentleman is raising a question pertaining to the persons who qualify for the payment of unemployment insurance out of the fund.
That is an entirely different matter. We have not that subject before us, and there will be proper opportunity during the course of this session to discuss the matter he is seeking to raise. The estimates of the Department of Labour for the next fiscal year will be before the house and there will be legislation to amend to Unemployment Insurance Act, as has been indicated already in the course of this discussion. My hon. friend will between those two pieces of business certainly have his opportunity to discuss this question. But, Mr. Chairman, the point has no bearing whatever on the matter of administration of the fund, which is a separate item and is handled under the law in a quite different way. The government bears the entire cost of administration, whereas payments out of the fund are dealt with in accordance with the terms of the legislation, and the fund is provided by contributions from three sources, of which the government is only one and, indeed, the smallest.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I rise to complain once again of the replies we are receiving from the Minister of Finance. He has said and continues to say that there will be an opportunity before the end of this session for hon. members to put questions of this sort to the ministry, when replies will be given. He does not seek to strengthen his position by arguing that under this item this question could not properly be put. He simply says there will be ample opportunity later on for replies to be given to these questions.
The real difficulty which confronts us arises out of the fact that the minister persists in making replies for all departments, himself. If he had acceded to our suggestion last night, a suggestion which he himself put forward so frequently and vigorously when he was sitting on this side, namely that this practice of the Minister of Finance should not be pursued, he would not be in the present difficulty.
The fact is that the answer to the question put by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is not within my hon. friend's
[Mr. Fleming (Eglinton) .1
knowledge. Therefore he is obliged to give the answer he has just given. My hon. friend ought to bring the Minister of Labour now into the house, if he is available, to make a reply. We are now shortly going to recess. Hon. members are going back to their constituencies. We will not be back here for a couple of weeks. This is a matter of great moment and consequence to the fishermen of Newfoundland, as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has pointed out. And what reply is given to us? We are told "Oh, put your questions some other time; we will give you an answer when we bring in amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act."
Mr. Chairman, these amendments may not come in until the dying days of the session, yet this is a subject which was raised by an hon. member of this committee in a letter to the Prime Minister; and the Prime Minister, in replying to that question, said the matter was receiving consideration. This is the subject with regard to which the Minister of Finance now tells us "Put your questions at some other time."
The hon. member is putting the question now, and he is entitled to receive from the government an answer to the question. If the Minister of Finance cannot answer the question himself he ought to ask his colleagues, some of whom are in this chamber and anxious to make replies. When we come to deal with the estimates of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, I know the minister of northern affairs is going to ask the Minister of Finance to allow him to make replies, as the Minister of Agriculture did last night by implication and by glances, appealing to the Minister of Finance to allow him to reply to the questions asked. And I know that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, the genial minister who looks at me now is not going to be happy if the reply on behalf of that department is given by my beloved and ubiquitous friend the Minister of Finance.
The trouble in which the hon. gentleman finds himself in dealing with all these estimates is an obvious one: he is seeking to reply on behalf of each minister, and in consequence we have been getting unsatisfactory and inadequate answers to our questions, of which there is no better example than the reply which the minister gave to the impassioned and able speech made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not entirely subscribe to everything which was said by my hon. friend from Essex East.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I suggest that hon. members opposite should wait for just a second, because if the hon. member for Essex East was right when he said that the Minister of Finance did not have the information which would enable him to reply to my question, which asked what the government did about this matter, it means, since the Minister of Finance is a member of the government, that the government did nothing about it, and that the Prime Minister broke his word. I should like an assurance from the Minister of Finance that this question was brought before the cabinet and considered by the government as the Prime Minister promised on January 16. If the minister remains silent everyone is entitled to draw the conclusion that the Prime Minister's statement was not correct; that this consideration was not given at all, as promised on January 16, and that the Prime Minister's statement was not correct. I think the Minister of Finance should seek to clear the Prime Minister's name in connection with this matter.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: The Minister of Finance does not seem to be aware that special agents have been employed under the unemployment insurance commission, and it is our understanding that part of this fund being voted today will cover the salaries of these agents-


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I clear up that point; I have the information now. No part of this supplementary item is for the purpose indicated, namely the payment of salaries to these agents. Their remuneration is taken care of under provision made in the main item. The hon. member will find that at page 264 in the main estimates for 1958-59, in the item for professional and special services. There is no addition for this purpose in the supplementary item now before the committee.


William Hector McMillan: This seems quite a large amount and all of it, except about $500,000, is for extra wages. Does this additional sum represent extra salaries and wages paid to people already employed, or have we taken on a number of additional employees? Could the minister give us a breakdown of this figure?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This requirement arises out of an increased work load. The item, as the hon. member will see by reference to page 19 of the details, is for $1,762,000 in respect of salaries and wages. The increased work load has accounted for much of this. Some of it has been accounted for by salary revisions, but the bulk is accounted for by the increased work load.
66968-9-132J
Supply-Labour
A great deal of the increased staff requirement has been provided on a casual basis.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder if the minister could tell us how much of this extra cost is due to the cancellation of the Avro Arrow program?


Donald Methuen Fleming: None, sir.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder if the minister could tell us how many additional persons have been taken on in the metropolitan Toronto area in the last 60 days?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot give that information now, but if the hon. member is interested I shall be glad to obtain it and convey it to him. Out of the existing staff the commission arranged for representatives to go into the Avro plant immediately after the general dismissals ordered by the company in order to provide on the site service.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Is the minister sure that they were all from existing staffs? The existing staffs were not able to keep up with all the work they had on hand before this shutdown, and surely the commission would have engaged additional staff in order to avoid falling further into arrears.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I know that those who were sent in were experienced personnel, but I shall be glad to obtain the information which the hon. member requires.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: This amount of $425,000 for office stationery and supplies and equipment is a large sum. Can the minister give us some details?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Part of this arises from the purchase of office equipment of a mechanical nature. I may say that the cost of mechanization is $135,000, which means that part of this increase-the balance of $262,000-is due to the building up of depleted stocks and because of the claims load which has of necessity meant the requisition of supplies.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Charles Edward Rea: Shall item No. 752 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Legislation
LEGISLATION House of Commons-
756. Special grant to the Canadian North Atlantic Treaty Organization Parliamentary Association for Canada's share of the cost of the Atlantic congress to be held in 1959 and the expenses of Canadian parliamentary delegates attending the congress, $20,000.
Lionel Chevrier: Will the minister explain what this grant is for?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, there is to be held in London in June a special meeting to mark the 10th anniversary of the inception of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and by arrangement made at the last meeting of the representatives of the various NATO parliamentary associations in Paris several months ago a decision was taken to hold this special gathering under NATO parliamentary association auspices in London this spring. Each country is selecting delegates. Indeed there is to be quite extended participation by the other members of the alliance. In our case the item proposes to appropriate $20,000 to pay Canada's share of the contribution toward the expenses of the conference and also to provide for the expenses of a delegation composed of members of this house and members of the other place to represent Canada at the conference.


Lionel Chevrier: How many delegates will be going from Canada? While I am on my feet I wish to ask another question. Does the government make provision for representation of the other parties on such a delegation? In this case what is the representation and how is it divided in that respect?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The representation will be worked out on an interparty basis as representation is always worked out at the conferences under NATO parliamentary association auspices and for commonwealth parliamentary conferences. It is expected that there will also be a number of interested or representative citizens from the other countries attending, and indeed it is hoped by those who are organizing the conference that a number of representative Canadians will also attend this conference but not at government expense. The representation will be worked out in the usual manner among the parties. This item will not provide anything toward the expenses of delegates other than members of parliament and the other place.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Will the minister be attending?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not expect to, Mr. Chairman.
[The Deputy Chairman.]


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I thought the minister might want to get away somewhere after bringing down his budget.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Oh, no, Mr. Chairman, I expect to stay here and enjoy the company of my hon. friend.


William Moore Benidickson: The minister took a big trip last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
Surveys and mapping branch-
757. Topographical surveys - construction or acquisition of equipment-further amount required, $20,500.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, will the minister explain what the equipment is for this service and the topographical surveys mentioned in this vote?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is for field survey equipment instruments which were destroyed in a fire. This is a replacement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
755. Canadian hydrographic service-administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $477,492.
Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could offer some explanation of this vote?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend will see by reference to page 20 of the details that this item of $477,492 is for two purposes. The sum of $221,292 is for salaries and wages, and the sum of $256,200 is for repairs and upkeep of ships and boats which are in use in the hydrographic service. My hon. friend is perhaps particularly interested in the second portion of the item. This sum of $256,200 is to provide for the conversion of the ship the William J. Stewart and the completion of the annual overhaul and fitting during the 1958 winter season of the four hydrographic vessels based on the east coast.


Armand Dumas: I understand that this work is usually carried on in the spring in the month of April. Does this represent a change of policy on the part of the government?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The work was advanced to provide employment during the winter.


Lionel Chevrier: Does this vote of $477,000 exclusively refer to the ship and the crew on the hydrographic ship? Is it for the operation of the ship, the maintenance of the crew and so forth?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, Mr. Chairman. I have drawn attention to the fact that this item is broken into two parts. The first, a sum of $221,292, is for salaries and wages applicable to the hydrographic service in general. The second part, $256,200 is for the conversion of the ship, the William J. Stewart and the completion of the annual overhaul and fitting of the four hydrographic vessels.


Lionel Chevrier: Does the first part of the vote apply to the crews on the ships?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am informed that it does not. The increase in the sum required for wages and salaries is due to the fact that there has been a slowdown in turnover and there have not been vacancies arising in the service.


Lionel Chevrier: I take it that the $256,200 applies exclusively to the hydrographic ships and to the maintenance and operation of the crews. If that is the case it seems to be a small amount for that purpose because the William J. Stewart is a big ship.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is a further amount required, as my hon. friend will appreciate.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
760. Purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, including purchases of equipment- further amount required, $2,300,000.
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, would the minister explain this vote. In the main estimates under a similar heading we voted an amount of $1,900,000 and now we have this supplementary estimate for $2,300,000 which is a large sum.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Chairman. This work of air photography was carried on under favourable conditions and very excellent progress was made. It was found to be desirable and economical that it should proceed at an accelerated pace. It is going to cost us less money in the end to do it that way. By March 31 the companies under contract with the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys will have completed work totalling $2,300,000 for which no funds are available in the existing vote.


Armand Dumas: Over and above what was voted?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


Armand Dumas: The minister said it would cost less money in the end. I understand this work is done under contract. How can it cost
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys less money? I believe the price is based on a square mile basis so surely the price would be the same.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes. There is an economy in more constant flying. That is the reason it was found to be more economical to expedite and accelerate the aerial photographic program.


Armand Dumas: Economy to the companies
who are on contract?


Donald Methuen Fleming: And the government.


Armand Dumas: Can the minister tell the
committee to which companies this amount will be paid? I understand three companies are concerned.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Spartan Air Services, Photographic Air Surveys and Aero Surveys. These are the main contractors.


Armand Dumas: I think there are three, Spartan Airways, Aero Surveys and Photographic Service. Can the minister tell the committee how much will be paid to each of those companies?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall be glad to
obtain that information for my hon. friend.


Lionel Chevrier: How are these contracts
awarded? Is it done by public tender or by allocation?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I will obtain that
information.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I think
this is rather an astonishing illustration of the abuse of supplementary estimates. The minister seemed sympathetic to some of the remarks that were made this morning by the hon. member for St. Denis, and if he was sincere in his appearance of approval of the legal authorities cited by the hon. member I would think that he would want to avoid a repetition of this type of thing in the future. I draw the minister's attention to the fact that the original item, which actually was presented to the house very late owing to the fact that we had an election, was not as large as this item. Usually the main estimates and the intentions of the government with respect to spending are decided upon in December and in a normal year are probably submitted to the House of Commons in January. Last year the main estimates were presented to the house on May 13. Now, shortly after the fiscal year had been entered upon this administration, if it had had respect for the House of Commons and its rights with respect to spending authority, would have known something about this accelerated program. I draw to the attention of the committee the fact that the original estimate, based upon
2090	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the best information that apparently the administration could sincerely and properly present to the house on May 13, was an item of $1,900,000. If we had had only one additional presentation to this house in the meantime of administrative proposals for expenditure, perhaps there might be some excuse for the ministry coming forward within two weeks of the termination of the fiscal year with an additional supplementary proposal for an expenditure that is almost 20 per cent larger than the original proposal. That surely is contempt of parliament and of its traditional rights with respect to expenditure.
If these things had been foreseen when the first supplementary estimates were presented on June 2 last session, surely the minister would have seen that this vote probably was likely to be inadequate. He presented additional supplementary estimates to the house on August 30, 1958. No indication of this particular item was given to the house at that time. On January 30 of this year we had supplementary estimates No. 2. Nothing was said about this item. Within two weeks of the expiry of the fiscal year, parliament is asked to approve an item that is almost 20 per cent larger than the cost of the program as originally estimated. How can that amount be possibly expended in the next two weeks? In other words, we must be bound to assume that this government, with its supercolossal majority, is simply operating on the basis of giving commitments to those companies and others and saying, "You just carry on and finance through the banks, and so on; we are sure and confident that within the dying days of the current fiscal year we can with our majority, and regardless of conditions, make sure that this money is voted".
The Minister of Finance must explain whether or not he knew on January 30, when supplementary estimates No. 2 were presented, that this item, by commitment or otherwise, was being very considerably exceeded, based on the original estimate tabled in the house on May 13 of last year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. gentleman is wide of the mark, far wide of the mark, as he has been so often.


Lionel Chevrier: Don't lose your temper, just stick to the facts.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is a statement of fact. I have already explained how this item came to be increased. The program which had been embarked upon was a program to extend over a period of years. We found, owing to extraordinarily favourable weather conditions prevailing in the Arctic


last year, that the program could, to advantage and economy, be accelerated last year.
Now, as to the knowledge of this, of course there are lots of matters in those final sup-plementaries that were within knowledge in January but are inappropriate items to be brought down then because these are matters that have to be adjusted as of March 31, and have to be complete. Therefore, this particular one, like a good many others that are presented now, is an item of which we knew well that the amount provided in the main estimates was going to be exceeded, but we have to come this much closer to the end of the fiscal year to be able to estimate it with precision, and that is the reason we have this situation before us today.
I referred to the extraordinarily favourable conditions which developed last year. This is illustrated in accrual to the public advantage and economies "because those contracts with the three companies concerned were contracts which, while there are certain basic guarantees, nevertheless did offer the government the opportunity of effecting economies by accelerating the program under the extraordinarily favourable conditions prevailing. That is the explanation, and the full explanation, Mr. Chairman.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, that is by no means a full explanation because the pertinent question I put to the minister was: when he last presented supplementary estimates to the house on January 30, did he not know the extent of this increase in possible expenditure on this item as compared with a year ago? I might forgive him for not referring to it on August 30; but surely he is disregarding the rights of this house in the matter of the appropriation of money if on January 30, when he came with supplementary estimates, he omitted any reference to this item. That is the essential question that the minister must answer.
We in the House of Commons feel that on a general basis-and the minister held these views when he was on this side and I do not think anybody on the other side will disagree with this-one of our primary functions is the right to pass upon expenditures and generally, unless something is unforeseen, we have the right to discuss and debate a projected program prior to the incurring of a liability by the crown. The very opposite has occurred in this instance. There is not anybody in the house, I think, who would want the crown commitment to be repudiated. In consequence of that, we are presented with items for expenditures after the commitment has been made, and particularly when that could have been prevented by a reasonable regard

for the rights of the House of Commons on the part of the administration, we feel offended.
Now, I say to the minister, if he knew last year that these flying conditions were such that the crown could embark on a program of this kind, as he says economically and advantageously, why should he present supplementary estimates on January 30 with no reference made to this program? In other words, the rights of the opposition to criticize or to suggest reasons as to whether or not that program should be amended or perhaps not embarked upon are completely lost because there is no one in any part of the house who, after a commitment has been made by the government, would want the government to repudiate its commitment. However, we are put in that position because these commitments have been made and there is not anybody who thinks for a moment that $2,300,000 is going to be spent in the next two months of this fiscal year on this matter.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I think I can claim to be as concerned as any member in this house about preserving the rights of all members of the House of Commons in relation to their responsibility to maintain control over public expenditures. We come to the study of supplementary estimates, Mr. Chairman, in a situation of this kind where what is asked of the house is the approval of a further amount required on the basis of a program having already been approved in principle. When the house has approved an item in the main estimates, it is approval in principle.
Now, this program of aerial photography was approved in principle in this house. The main estimate appears in the details of the volume of estimates approved by the house. This particular program having been approved in principle proceeded last summer, and as I indicated it proceeded under extraordinarily favourable conditions, conditions much more favourable than those that we or the companies could have foreseen. Then, this program went far beyond the end of the session of parliament which ended on September 7. Now, so far as January last is concerned, it would not have made any difference so far as the actual incurring of the expenditure is concerned because the work was done during the favourable flying season. It was a matter of amending and working out agreements with the companies concerned for the payments to be made. The house, therefore, is in just as good a position now as it would have been in January. There is absolutely nothing in the point the hon. member is making with regard to January.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The items brought down in January were items which were ascertained at that time. This is like a good many of the other items, and there are many in these supplementary estimates, that were not fully ascertained at that time.


William Moore Benidickson: This is a very strange form of argument on the part of the Minister of Finance. Really I am satisfied, knowing him as I do, that on reflection for another year he will not agree with what he has said at this moment. I do not think he will agree it is the proper practice to not advise the House of Commons at the earliest possible stage of his knowledge that it is desirable to overexpend on an item that, in principle or otherwise, has been approved by the House of Commons. There are many of us in this House of Commons who would, in our individual capacity, decide it would be desirable and proper for us to make an expenditure of, shall we say, $1 million for a certain purpose. However, if we were told that our expenditures, individually or otherwise, were to be 120 per cent beyond what we had approved at a certain stage, I think that we probably would be giving the matter second thoughts. I say that in connection with a matter of this kind these second thoughts are denied the house because the commitment has been made and practically completed, although payments probably have not been made.


Donald Methuen Fleming: My hon. friend is not at all right in talking about commitments. I think that is where he is leading himself astray. These companies have proceeded with this work. They are offering to sell the results of their aerial photography to the government, and we consider that it is very good business to purchase them. So far as commitment is concerned, the commitment rests upon a decision of this house and if the house does not approve, then these companies will just have to wait until next year for us to buy the results of their work.
My friend is quite wrong in talking about a commitment when he is talking about the matter of the purchase of the results of this aerial photography work. If the house does not want to buy it, all right, but there are advantages to the department in having the results of this photographic work earlier than would otherwise be the case. There are economies in proceeding on this basis. My friend is quite wrong in talking about a commitment. We are asking the committee to authorize us to purchase the results of this photographic work today.


William Moore Benidickson: This is another example of how the Minister of Finance seems to underestimate the wit and understanding of

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys a great number of other members of this house. I happen to know, because flying is an important industry in the constituency I represent, that none of the flying companies of the financial standing of these that were named would go ahead with a project of this kind. They have not got the resources to do it; they have not got the bank backing to do it, and it is just another example of the fatuous remarks that are so often made by the Minister of Finance.
It is difficult for the committee to believe that one of his colleagues has not encouraged these companies to go ahead and that the government would purchase these services. There is not anybody in this house, including I think most of the backbenchers on the government side, who would think for a moment that these companies would go ahead. It is not their business to go ahead and supply information of this kind without having a customer in sight. There is only one customer in sight in this country in connection with matters of this kind and that is the government of Canada.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, my friend is not getting away with remarks like that. He started out talking about commitments and said commitments should not be made without approval of the committee. I said there is no commitment. The committee has this opportunity to pass on the matter now. It is true that these companies are not in a strong financial position, but the companies thought it was good business to take advantage of these conditions.


Lionel Chevrier: Does the minister mean by the last statement he has just made that there was no assurance given by any department of government to these three companies, or any one of these three companies, that they are to do certain aerial surveys on behalf of the government of Canada, because if his answer is no, I will be tremendously surprised.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The answer is no.


Mr. Habel:: You are the only one in the house; where are the other ministers?


Paul Theodore Hellyer: I wonder if the minister would show the house all the contracts or letters or memoranda that exist between the government departments and any one of these three companies? Surely, none of these three companies would undertake the aerial photography of any part of our northern country without some written assurance by some department of government that they would be compensated for that work.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am informed that there was no commitment given to these companies. They were up there, conditions


were favourable and they knew they had an opportunity to go ahead with what was expected originally to be a six-year program. They took advantage of favourable conditions to proceed with this work, to accelerate it and make savings for all concerned thereby.
I am quite sure their hope in proceeding that way was that payment would be accelerated. That is why, having accelerated the program, they come forward and offer the government the advantage of the work they have done and we recommend to the house that advantage be taken of it.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Mr. Chairman, I do not think the minister has recently been in private business. If he had been, he would want more than a hope of being paid before he started on an expenditure of that type.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to ask the
Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources a question since this item is one that concerns his department. I should like to know from him whether or not any of these companies-and they have been mentioned here as photographic air surveys-have been given any undertaking by officers of his department or by himself that they would get aerial contracts or that they could assume that they would receive contracts for topographical aerial surveys of Canada?


An hon. Member:: Ask permission to
answer first.


Lionel Chevrier: Could I get an answer from the minister?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: In the first place, Mr. Chairman, this is not in my department but in that of mines and technical surveys. In the second place, the answer is no.


William Moore Benidickson: We know that we had the minister with us a short time ago before our luncheon recess. I am surprised that he is not here to assist the Minister of Finance at the moment. In addition-and the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources can deny it if I am wrong-it is my recollection that on all matters of this kind there is an interdepartmental committee so that when the government makes a purchase of this kind it will be an enterprise that will redound to the utmost benefit of as many as possible departments of the government. My understanding is that the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources is represented on this interdepartmental committee. I am sure that the officials of that department would report to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Perhaps the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources is the acting minister of

mines and technical surveys and therefore has a fairly good knowledge of this particular item.


Lionel Chevrier: May I inquire from the minister who are the members of the interdepartmental committee dealing with this matter?


Donald Methuen Fleming: These are the
departments that are represented on the committee: mines and technical surveys, northern affairs and national resources and national defence.


Azellus Denis: This situation reminds me of the one which arose before noon when the same question arose. I note that the citation in Beauchesne's parliamentary rules and forms is against the decision of the present government. May I be permitted to read part of this article which I did not use before noon. It applies perfectly to this case. I am quoting from paragraph 240 which reads as follows:
Supplementary estimates . . . may be presented either:
(I) for a further grant to a service already sanctioned and voted for,-
Which is not the case here.
*-or (II) for a grant for a further occasion of expenditure arising where the estimates were presented:-
Which is not the case here.
-	(a) for expenditure newly imposed on the executive by statute;-
Which is not the case here.
-	(b) to such an unexpected emergency.
As far as the control of parliament is concerned, about which hon. members opposite were so fussy when they were in opposition, when they talked so much against the former government about freedom of speech and the sovereignty of parliament, it is my opinion that they do not practice what they preached while they were in opposition. In this particular case they doubled the amount of the original estimates. Does the Minister of Finance not think that he is going a little bit too far as far as this item is concerned?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The Minister of Finance thinks it is good business to take advantage of this opportunity to make some economies.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Donald Methuen Fleming: In this case he is fortified in that view by the fact that this contract contemplating a six-year program of air photography was fully disclosed to the committee which reviewed the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical 66968-9-133
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Surveys at the last session. This information was brought to the attention of all hon. members.
To listen to some hon. gentlemen opposite one would think that this kind of situation is something brand new in experience. The fact is that this is not the first year we have had a program of aerial photography; that is far from being the case. There have been occasions-and not just one of them-where under the previous government favourable photographic conditions developed and a program of aerial photography and survey was accelerated in the same way as it was accelerated this past year. A great deal of smoke has been raised about this matter by hon. members opposite. There is nothing strange or unusual about it. These companies under that contract go up into the north and when the favourable conditions prevail they go ahead and do more than one-sixth of the total work; and they are quite prepared-indeed they are anxious- to sell to the government, in accordance with the terms of the contract, the benefits of that accelerated work. That is what is involved here. It is not a case of a commitment. It is not a case where the government has gone out and spent money or committed money without the approval of parliament at all. That is not the situation. This is a case where, with the fruits of an accelerated program available, the government is recommending to the house that the fruits of that program be purchased now; and, as I have indicated, this will be advantageous to all concerned and we think it good business to do it in this way.


Lionel Chevrier: The minister says it is not the case of a commitment. He said that in his closing remarks. But in his opening remarks he said it was a question of taking advantage of the opportunity to make economies. If the minister and the government are taking advantage of the opportunity of making economies, then there must be some understanding between these companies and the government. The question I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, who is a member of this interdepartmental committee, is this; and may I say that I wish he would pay attention to the question I am going to ask him. As he answered "no" to the question I put to him a moment ago, I now put this question to him. By that answer does he mean that no documents of any kind have been exchanged between these companies and the government or between these companies and any member of the interdepartmental committee, for future commitments or engagement of these services?
2094	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: Shall vote 760 carry?


Lionel Chevrier: No, Mr. Chairman, I want an answer to my question.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Lionel Chevrier: I think I am entitled-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Was the hon. member going to ask something?


Lionel Chevrier: No. I was going to insist on an answer.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are no commitments. I have made inquiry and I am informed that there is no commitment but that one of these companies has gone so far with this program that it will be in financial difficulties if we do not take advantage of this opportunity.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Donald Methuen Fleming: But that is not the only reason. This is very good business for the government. We wish to see this work carried on and we wish to take advantage of the opportunity which has been presented to us.
I was asked earlier how the contracts with these companies were entered into. The main contract with these companies was arrived at by tender, but certain changes were negotiated in relation to photography in the Arctic archipelago. The contract to date involves certain payments. This present item will permit payments to the Spartan company of $1,325,000, and the photographic surveys company, $735,000. The balance of the item now submitted is for photography still to be examined and approved. The third company, Aero Surveys, has some work done but they did not participate to the extent that the other two companies did in the accelerated program.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, it follows from the answer which the minister has given that work has been ordered and commitments have been made to the extent of $1,325,000 for Spartan and $735,000 for Aero Surveys. If that is the case, then it looks to me as if there has been a commitment without an appropriation by parliament, and I therefore come back to my earlier question. I asked the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources a question, and I did not direct it to the Minister of Finance because the Minister of Finance is not a member of the interdepartmental committee. The Minister of Finance told me a moment ago that the three members of the interdepartmental committee on this committee were the Minister of Mines and

Technical Surveys, the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the Minister of National Defence.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, I did not say
"ministers". I said that they were the three departments which were represented on the committee.


Lionel Chevrier: That is quite right; I stand corrected to that extent, that the departments of mines, northern affairs and defence were members of this committee. Surely the minister who is sitting in his seat and who represents the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and who is a member of that committee, is in a position to answer the question which I asked a moment ago? The question I asked was this:	When the minister made his answer
to me that there was no commitment, does he mean there was no document of any kind exchanged between any of these three companies and the government?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, if this will make the hon. member for Laurier any happier, there is an interdepartmental committee and we discuss policy matters of this sort; but I know nothing of any exchange of documents. I imagine they would be handled by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys if there were.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance has insisted on trying to tell the committee that the government will make some saving by having this done much earlier than it was supposed to be done. I understand this is done under contract and the companies will be paid the same amount as if they had taken six years to do the job, so there are no savings by the government. I noticed in the minutes of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters that there was a question put on page 195 of the report of the meeting of Monday, March 16 last, by one member in regard to this item as follows:
-you mean that 50 per cent of the contract is completed?
We were told that 50 per cent of the contract was completed, so Mr. Pack of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys said:
Speaking generally, but not for each company. Generally speaking, 50 per cent is completed. It was considered as to whether or not we should hold the companies to the six-year plan or whether in view of the success which they had had we should take a more realistic approach.
As a result, we have now amended the contracts officially. It is our hope that the government will see fit to provide us with a rather large supplementary estimate by the end of this month

which will completely reimburse the three companies concerned or the value of all of the photography they have done up until last October.
But this will not be any saving to the government. Of course, we are happy that this job will be completed much sooner than it was supposed to be completed, but early last fall the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys knew that 50 per cent of the job was completed, and as the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River said, this amount could have been provided in the supplementary estimates of January last.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Furthermore, it was said a while ago that the committee speaks of contracts, and if there is a contract there must be a commitment. The minister says there was no commitment, but the committee speaks of a contract with this company.


Armand Dumas: The minister mentioned an amount of $1,900,000 in the main estimates. Was that $1,900,000 voted to pay those three companies? Was that the full amount covering this job in the Arctic?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The sum was not
provided entirely or exclusively for the work in the Arctic archipelago. Some of it was for work on the mainland.


Azellus Denis: Am I right in understanding from what the minister has said that the amount he just mentioned of $2,300,000 would be allocated? There would be no public tenders asked because, if the work is done, how can the minister then ask for tenders? There would be no tenders at all; is that right?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not think my hon. friend followed what I have been saying. There were original contracts awarded to these three firms to undertake this work on a six-year basis.


Azellus Denis: For what amount?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The total amount ran to something like $6 million. That was the total program. I am, of course, giving round figures now, according to my recollection. It was expected at one time when the contract was entered into that this would work out on a fairly uniform annual basis, but for the reasons I have indicated the work was expedited. My hon. friend asks about tenders for this work. These were the three companies which were successful as a result of the tenders and were assigned the work. Therefore it is a question of operating within the original contractual arrangements between the parties following the original tender.


Armand Dumas: How many companies tendered for these contracts?
66968-9-133J
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot give my friend the answer, but he knows perhaps better than I do the fact that there are not likely to be many companies in a position to undertake this work in that area. I cannot give him the answer to that question offhand. I can look it up and see if there were any others, but it would not surprise me if these were the only companies that tendered, and the work was shared among them.


Mr. Cardin:: Despite the very valiant efforts of the Minister of Finance to answer the questions which have been asked, there seems to be in some minds, certainly in mine, a great deal of confusion as to whether or not there was any commitment. I wonder if I might make the suggestion to the minister that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys come in, because I understand that is under his department and I am sure he would be in a position to answer the question we really want to ask.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am giving to the committee the information which I have. That is the information I have on this subject. I have given the answer to this question on three occasions, now.


Lionel Chevrier: Much as we like the Minister of Finance in the circumstances we would prefer to hear the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I think we need still more clarification. First of all, the minister said that there was no commitment at all, and then a while ago he said tenders have been asked for and contracts given. Is there not something of a commitment, when the government has asked for tenders and given a contract?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. member is thinking of something quite different.


Alexis Pierre Caron: How can the minister say such things to the committee? When he was sitting on this side of the house he was the first to protest if he did not get the information he required. Now he refuses to give us the information which we need before we can vote on this item. Instead he tries to pass on all kinds of answers which are not true.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think the hon. member is now reaching a point where I must ask him to reflect on what he is saying. I was asked whether there were any commitments with respect to the amounts the house is now asked to approve. I have given the answer. There were no commitments. The hon. member is now talking about something quite different. 1 think this is about the sixth time I have said this, and I had hoped we would not need to go over the

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys same ground again. I made it quite clear that these firms went into the Arctic under the terms of a contract. They have now gone beyond the work which was contemplated and they offer the results of this work to the government, and we now ask that authorization be given so that we may have the results of that survey work now, without waiting.


Alexis Pierre Caron: If the Minister of Finance had said that some time ago we might have had an idea what he meant.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I said it a dozen times.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Now the minister has explained what he means by commitments and what he means by tenders and what he means by contracts. I admit that my English is not as good as that of some hon. members, but the terms contract, commitment and tenders have something very similar about them.


Mr. Stearns:: Could the minister tell us for how many years all the government aerial photography work has been divided among these three companies?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The year 1958 was the second year of the contracts with the three companies.


George McClellan (Mac) Stearns: Do I understand that before that time, for the past 15 or 20 years, these three firms were the only ones which had been able to provide this service to the country?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am afraid my information does not extend back over that period of time.


Lester Bowles Pearson: One other question, and I think this will probably summarize our views on this matter: is it a fact that this amount is being asked for in connection with work which is now largely completed, and that if this appropriation is not passed, one of the companies which is doing this work without remuneration would perhaps go into bankruptcy.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We were informed that the company, having gone so far, would be in a shaky position and might have difficulty in continuing to complete the balance of the work over the remaining period. Naturally, as I said earlier, the government is interested in seeing this task completed. We do not wish this work to fail to reach completion if we can avoid it, and it happens that there are other advantages to us, now, as I have indicated in entering on this proposed basis.
TMr. Fleming (Eglinton) .1

I was asked earlier about the number of companies which tendered, and my recollection, or conjecture, was correct. These three companies were the only ones to tender originally, and the work was divided among them.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Is the minister now informing the house that there are no savings as such to the government if we pay for the services now as opposed to paying in the next fiscal year, but that the saving is, in fact, accruing to the company?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There will, of course, be advantage to the companies in being paid now for the work already done instead of their having to wait a year or two years until that work catches up with the period contemplated under the original contract. There is also an advantage to the treasury in having the work completed earlier than the contract date.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: The minister referred to other advantages, and I wondered what they were.


Mr. Dinsdale:: All the time during which this discussion has been taking place my memory has been trying to recall a similar discussion which took place on a similar item back in 1955. I have now obtained a copy of Hansard for that year. I find, also, that the same discussion took place in 1956. The question propounded in 1955 related to the following item:
Payments to Royal Canadian Air Force and commercial companies for air photography, and to defray the expenses of and the purchase of equipment by the interdepartmental committee on air surveys-further amount required, $1,200,000.
It seems to me that this item is similar to the item we are discussing at the present moment.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask a question? Did that discusssion take place during consideration of the main estimates or of the supplementary estimates?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: As I understand it, it was on the supplementary or the further supplementary estimates.


Lionel Chevrier: What was the date?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: March 25, 1955. I think it is a further supplementary estimate.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Those are the final supplementary estimates in March, just before the close of the fiscal year.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: The question asked was precisely the question which has been raised

by members of the opposition here this afternoon, and in reply the former minister of finance, Mr. Harris, said:
As I think hon. members know, we have been carrying out a program of aerial photography in Canada, and estimates are made in advance of the amount of work expected to be done during the coming flying season. Last year happened to be a particularly good year in some parts and not so good in others. The contract for the photography was carried out not entirely to the extent that had been expected. In addition to that aerial photography, however, the people concerned were able to take photographs not of the area that had been set out but of other areas, and when they completed their work the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys realized that the photography that was being offered at that moment was of an area which they would have on their program in a few years and they might as well acquire it now. That accounts for the fact that they purchased this additional amount of aerial photography during 1954-55.
So it seems there is precedent.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I doubt whether a precedent is established, but even if it is, the questions asked by the opposition in those days were perfectly reasonable ones. Fortunately for the government, the minister at that time knew the answers.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am struck by the similarity of the answer given by Mr. Harris in March 1955 to the answers given today by the Minister of Finance, and I am more than interested to recall, Mr. Chairman, that in that debate the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River was parliamentary assistant to the minister of finance.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the Minister of Finance this afternoon has a better understanding of the technique of getting estimates through the committee than he previously displayed. I wish to suggest to him that one way of rendering it extremely difficult to get his estimates through is to suggest that the questions being brought up by the opposition are raised as smoke. The hon. member for Brandon-Souris indicated that this was something that exercised the minds of members of the Conservative party when they were in opposition. This is something about which they wanted more early information. When they spoke about these things the public had every reason to believe that should they ever form the administration they would practice what they preached at that time. Instead of that the minister will not admit that parliament is not being treated with proper respect when he presented to the committee on January 30 supplementary estimates without making reference to this point. That was the question I raised.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The hon. member for Brandon-Souris did not indicate and I do not recall whether we had supplementary estimates in the session to which he referred prior to the presentation of this item on March 25 but I do submit that the Minister of Finance indicated that work had been done. Indeed, he said that most of it had been dope due to favourable conditions last summer. He then went on to abuse the opposition by simply raising smoke that had no significance.
At this time I invite the minister to admit that this is not a wise practice. I should like to know if he is still of the opinion he advertised, as did the hon. member for Brandon-Souris, when they were on this side of the house and if he would give an undertaking that in another year he would avoid as much as possible bringing in at a later stage than he could have brought in proposed estimates for the committee of supply. I believe that is the essential point.
The other matter is that the minister has very noticeably retracted from the position he originally took.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not at all.


William Moore Benidickson: I refer to the fact that he talked originally of economies in connection with what is being proposed under this item. After the hon. member for Villeneuve reported on information that was available in the committee on mines and resources the minister changed his tune.


Donald Methuen Fleming: He did nothing of the kind.


William Moore Benidickson: The minister now talks in terms of advantages. He does not mean the kind of advantage which I would imagine is the chief advantage. However, he spoke of an advantage rather than an economy, introducing a new word. I think there would be some advantage in getting this information for Canada earlier than would be provided for if it were lengthened for a six-year term. That is not what the committee was told.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is what the committee was told.


William Moore Benidickson: If the hon. member will examine his Hansard he will find he emphasized there was an economy that would accrue in connection with this extra appropriation. That has not proven to be the case. The work was done on contract. Certainly the minister's final description was more appropriate when he referred to an advantage.
If the hon. member for Brandon-Souris and the Minister of Finance were speaking sincerely when on this side of the chamber

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys they indicated to the country that things would be different if they sat to the right of the Speaker, I suggest that next year we will not have from the Minister of Finance at the end of the fiscal year appropriations in the supplementary estimates that are 120 per cent of the original estimate presented to the copimittee.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, if I may be
allowed a further word on that point I would say I believe the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River has implied that I went further in my observations and indicated that I was unhappy with this procedure. That is not indicated by the Hansard record. I was merely inquiring about the additional expenditures. If I had read further I would have noted that Mr. Harris went on to explain that the procedure was in the interest of economy and we came to the conclusion that it was justifiable under the circumstances. We were a very reasonable and constructive opposition.


Azellus Denis: By reading further down the hon. gentleman would have observed that the then leader of the Conservative party criticized the situation at that time.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No, that was the end of the discussion.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, there is one little point the hon. member for Brandon-Souris brought up on which I should like to comment. I have just been listening to this discussion which seemed to me to develop from the explanation given by the minister. The minister is now taking great credit to himself for having parroted Mr. Harris' explanation which Mr. Harris understood, but there seems to be this difference. I may not have understood correctly and if I am wrong I, of course, unlike the minister am always perfectly willing to admit it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: You are a great man.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member for
Brandon-Souris read Mr. Harris' explanation that in some areas the weather was not good and therefore it was not possible to carry out photography in some areas under contract but that in other areas not covered by contract photography was undertaken and this vote was for the purpose of buying the photographs taken in areas not covered by the contract. I just heard the reading of this and had no previous knowledge of it but I believe that is the sense of what the hon. member read. If I understood the Minister of Finance he did not tell us that. He said there was such extraordinarily good weather everywhere that a whole lot was
[Mr. Benidickson.l

done. There does seem to have been a specific contract in 1955 in the case to which Mr. Harris referred for a specific area. What is there in this case? What is there in the original contract? If the minister had complied with the request of the hon. members for Trinity and Laurier an hour ago and produced the original contract and read it to us no doubt the committee would not have had to ask all the questions that have been asked.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-*
National health branch-
762.	Administration of the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act-further amount required, $47,000.
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, this vote involves a jurisdiction that is shared by the Minister of National Health and Welfare and the Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice has been declaring policy which traditionally has generally been reposed in the Minister of National Health and Welfare. I refer particularly to the treatment of drug addicts.
The Minister of Justice has made no less than two statements that have come to my attention through the press in the last few months indicating that the government was giving consideration to the setting up of treatment centres for drug addicts. Can the Minister of Finance say whether or not any of this money is to be used for that purpose, directly or indirectly? What is the government's policy? Does it propose to establish treatment centres on its own or in co-operation with the provinces or does it simply propose to give financial assistance to the provinces for this purpose? I have in mind particularly the situation in British Columbia where there has been displayed a more than ordinary interest in this matter. Does the Minister of Finance think that his great knowledge of the problems of the government of Canada will enable him to give an answer to this all-important question?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, there is no provision in this item for treatment centres. This additional sum is required to pay legal fees, court costs and other services as clearly appears on page 20 of the details. This arises out of a higher level of enforcement activity during the year.
The committee will, I think, be interested to know that in 1958 there were 522 convictions under the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act as compared with 454 in 1957 and 391 in 1956.


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, that reply, such as it is, is acceptable but the reply of the minister indicates the weakness of the procedure of which he now wishes to be recognized as the author, namely that the Minister of Finance in connection with all these matters shall reply to questions on behalf of all his colleagues.
The point made by the Minister of Justice was that instead of using lawyers and courts for the purpose of punishing drug addicts, consideration might be given to the use of these facilities for determining whether or not in individual cases the punishment should consist of confinement in prison or whether it should consist of assigning the person concerned to a hospital for special treatment. I do not expect the Minister of Finance to answer this question, which assumes a certain amount of special training and knowledge which, in the face of his great and onerous responsibilities, he cannot be expected to acquire; but it does indicate the unsatisfactory procedure which the minister pursued last night and is pursuing today in persisting, notwithstanding the obvious discomfort of which he has been the victim.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No; on the contrary, I have been completely comfortable.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend says that he is completely comfortable. His imperturbability is admirable, but I must say that this imperturbability does not in any way satisfy the legitimate demands of those of us in the house who are asking questions. The only way we could get a satisfactory answer would be to permit the minister to continue in his imperturbable state, but to have associated with that the superior departmental knowledge of his colleagues who might reply to these various questions. How satisfactory it would be if the Minister of National Health and Welfare was in his seat today and the Minister of Justice, to supplement information which the Minister of Finance quite obviously has not been able to give. What the Minister of Finance has is certain answers to certain obvious questions. He has given a partial reply now, but we have had a continuous exhibition since last night of the weakness of this procedure. Questions have been put on northern affairs and, even with the minister sitting by, there has not been a full invitation to that minister to reply. Last night we had the Minister of Agriculture so anxious to take part in this debate but denied that opportunity-


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is a wonderful act you are putting on.
Supply-Health and Welfare


Murdo William Martin: *-by the Minister of Finance. Then, we have the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, who is always so eager to give the house information, sitting in his seat here but denied likewise the opportunity. I am sure the Minister of Transport would have been happy to answer many of the questions dealing with aerial photography and surveys.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It has nothing to do with his department.


Murdo William Martin: Yes, it has.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, it has.


Murdo William Martin: It is only because of my long association with the Minister of Finance, for whom I have the highest personal regard, and whose advancement not only in government but in public life is as dear to me as it is to another classmate, the hon. member for Laurier, and others who want to see the hon. gentleman enshrined in Canadian history, that I ask him hereafter to recognize the limitations of his great capacities, limitations that deny us and the people of Canada the kind of information without which it is not possible successfully to prosecute our respective duties in this house.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, my dear and hon. friend never put on a better act in his life than he has put on this afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare branch-
763.	Welfare branch	administration-further
amount required, $18,500.
Mr. Broome:: I would like to make a couple of observations under this item, particularly as to whether the Department of National Health and Welfare are carrying out investigations into whether there might be the possibility of pensions being paid to pensioners outside of the country? I know there are tremendous administrative problems involved, particularly in connection with safeguards to ensure that the eligible pensioner is the only person who receives the pension cheque and, if the pensioner dies, the pension is stopped. There must be means by which the various departments of government that have pensions that are paid outside of this country control this problem now. I am sure it is a problem that would be within the administrative capacity of the department to solve.
I also note the fact that the residence qualifications have been reduced to 10 years. I can readily see that a person could come here, work 10 years, be eligible for a pension payment and then leave the country, if
2100	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare pensions were paid to Canadian citizens outside the country. But I would point out to the department that it is not necessary to tie the same Canadian residence rule to the right to draw the pension outside the country as it is to the right to draw the pension within the country. The right to draw a pension outside the country could be made to depend upon 20 years' residence. This might be something that would not be acceptable to everybody.
There is also the fact that when pensions are paid outside of the country, particularly when they are paid in commonwealth countries, those countries would obtain Canadian currency which would return to this country in the form of an increase in foreign trade. The department might start to consider some of the problems involved so that if and when the government does consider it is something to be put before the house, the department would be ready to take care of their problems.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I have sat here very quietly for a number of hours, but I cannot resist rising to compliment the hon. member for Vancouver South on supporting a long time policy of this group, namely the payment of old age security cheques outside Canada to Canadian citizens who are entitled to that consideration. I do hope, Mr. Chairman, that he is able to influence his colleagues in the Progressive Conservative party and that the members of the cabinet will listen to the voice of some of their members from British Columbia. I find that the members from that province are a few steps ahead of some of their colleagues from central and eastern Canada. I do urge the minister to bring those representations of the hon. member for Vancouver South to the particular attention of the cabinet so that early consideration may be given to his request, based on our long time policy.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
764.	Reduction in the amount owing by the old age security fund pursuant to section 11 of the Old Age Security Act in an amount equal to the amount of outstanding temporary loans made by the Minister of Finance to the fund before the 1st day of April, 1959, estimated at, $184,000,000.
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, there are two points arising out of this important vote. First of all, the other day the government tabled at long last the Clark report, which consisted of an examination of the old age and survivors program in the United States. It will be remembered that this report had its genesis in the observation made by the Prime Minister during the course of an election that he favoured the United States system either in supplement of what we already had under our universal old age security system or as a replacement.
[Mr. Broome.!

It would be very interesting if the Minister of Finance would tell us whether or not the government has yet perused the two volumes prepared by Dr. Clark; whether or not, as a result of all the factual information given in that report, the government has been able yet to arrive at a policy; whether or not the Prime Minister has had a confirmation of his election judgments and when we may expect the government to take action or not to take action. After all, we were promised this in 1958. The report was to be ready in four months and although it has taken over 14 months to get the report, in view of the fact that the Department of National Health and Welfare has practically all of his information now within its resources, perhaps the Minister of Finance would be able to give us information of its policy in the matter of the United States old age survivors program.
The second observation I should like to make is with regard to the amount contained in the supplementary estimates of $184 million for old age security. Now, this item represents a reduction of the deficit in the old age security fund. It is a lower estimate than that provided for the prospective deficit of the fund. The Minister of Finance, when he presented his budget on June 17, 1958, said at page 1240 of Hansard:
-We shall also be required to meet the increased deficit in the old age security fund which will be about $190 million in this fiscal year.
The actual deficit up to the end of January, 1959 was $158.8 million, and in recent months the deficit has been running at a rate slightly in excess of $15 million monthly. It therefore follows that the original estimate which the Minister of Finance made of $190 million is very close to reality. I, therefore, ask the minister, why is the government making a provision of $184 million, at least $6 million less than the prospective deficit and the deficit which he, himself, predicted? I am sure that the minister must have a reason. It is true that this is a statutory item and that there will be no refusal to pay this money to the old age security pensioners whether or not we pass this item in its present amount of $184 million. This amount seems to be short of what will ultimately be required. It does seem the minister owes the house an explanation as to why he has not fulfilled his own prognostication because this amount is short by at least $6 million.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The report submitted by Dr. Clark is under examination and government policy in regard to that subject will be announced at the proper time. In so far as the amount is concerned, the figure of $184 million represents the estimate of the deficit at March 31, 1959 in respect

of the present fiscal year. We are in a position, naturally, to make a more precise estimate in March than we were in June. It happens that now we find the estimate is likely to be $6 million less than appeared to be required when the budget was brought down on June 17.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It could not be because the minister, anticipating the introduction of his budget, is hoping to be able to portray at that time a smaller figure of government expenditures, knowing full well of course that he will always be able, under the statutory authority that exists, to provide additional moneys for the old age pensioners at a later date. The minister could easily take the position in regard to statutory items, that we shall only ask, up until the end of the fiscal year, for a certain amount, and when we bring in the budget we will refer only to the actual expenditures. Could it be that kind of consideration was in the mind of the Minister of Finance?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend has a great time in dreaming up bogeymen. I can only repeat to him that at this time the best estimate that we can give the committee, based upon the best advice available, is that the deficit in this fund for the present fiscal year will be $184 million, not $190 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
National parks branch-
765.	National parks and historic sites services- administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $284,279.
Douglas Mason Fisher: On February 18 in this house the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, on page 1146 of Hansard, said this in relation to information on the hiring of employees for national parks:
The information is in the possession of the hon. member for Brandon-Souris. He tells me that he is prepared to stand up in the house and, if it is required, bring the whole matter to the attention of the house. I am going to ask him to do that in view of the statements made and questions asked by the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River.
It seems to me that this is the proper place for us to remind the minister and the member for Brandon-Souris of the obligation to make this explanation of the particular hiring practices which agitated the house for some time a few months ago.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: While the hon. member for Brandon-Souris is taking time to reflect upon whether or not he is going to give an answer, I may say that I notice the amount for this
Supply-Northern Affairs
item is $284,279, and that is quite a substantial amount to be requested in supplementary estimates. In looking over the details, I find that $13,506 is directed toward payments for telephones and telegrams. Can the minister give us a further explanation of the reason for requiring $13,506 for telephones and telegrams for this branch when the amount in the main estimates was only $25,130? Would the minister think the increase of 50 per cent might be represented in the increased telegrams sent out by the department to confirm the appointment of employees who had been appointed to national parks through political partisanship?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, I am afraid my friend has misconjectured again. This increase arises out of the expanded works programs, including the winter works projects. This has necessitated a large volume of rapid communications, that is to say, communications by telephone and telegram in order to avoid delays in the work. In addition to that new telephones have been installed since April 1, and there has been a recent increase in the rates charged.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The main estimates for the department have been passed so far as national parks are concerned, and I certainly doubt that they would have been passed at the time if we had not had that assurance from the minister that we would get an explanation later from the member for Brandon-Souris. I would very much welcome that explanation at this time.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am quite happy to oblige the hon. member for Port Arthur. I am very interested in his morbid curiosity about this matter. I think I can dispose of it in a very brief reply. I believe the former member for Dauphin could enlighten the hon. member on this score if he would care to write a letter to him. Actually, as I read the discussion that took place around this subject on the occasion referred to by the hon. member, it seemed to me that the minister of northern affairs has given the necessary details. As to any additional information I might give, all I can say, Mr. Chairman, is that there is no problem. The hiring is being done through the national employment service.
I might give a little background information on that score. We took the initiative in this regard early last October when the winter works projects for national parks in Manitoba were announced. The minister was in communication with us. In the city of Brandon we have a very active winter works campaign committee. As a matter of fact that committee undertook and completed the most successful winter employment activities of any similar committee across the country.

Supply-Northern Affairs Our unemployment picture was much better this year than it was last year. In an organization meeting at the end of November, I believe it was, we discussed this matter of the plan for winter works projects, and I informed the members of the committee, and it is so inscribed in the minutes of that meeting, that I would have this matter dealt with on my return to Ottawa.
We returned to Ottawa early in January, and within a week of parliament assembling we had met with the minister of northern affairs and the necessary instructions had gone out regularizing the employment activities for Riding Mountain national park. I think that pretty well completes the story so far as I am concerned.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the hon. member a question that was posed last February by the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River. Did the hon. member for Brandon-Souris make these representations to the minister acquiescing in a new scheme before or after this publicity in January or the complaint of the Brandon winter employment committee in December?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Quite. We first began to deal with this matter in October. It came before the winter work committee in November. At that time I indicated that one of my first duties in Ottawa would be to clear up any difficulties remaining, and that was done at the earliest possible moment. The hon. member has referred to a news story which appeared first as a radio story over radio and television station CKX and it was later repeated in the Winnipeg Free Press under the byline of James Struthers. Mr. Struthers is news editor of the radio and television station in Brandon.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The hon. member has just referred to this committee in Brandon which he says in respect of these matters is working satisfactorily and is a reputable committee. But as reported at page 1144 of Hansard the minister had this to say about a committee in Brandon which presumably is the one to which my hon. friend now refers in such glowing terms. The minister said:
It is not new to us to have a group of people as in the city of Brandon deliberately set out to build up a news story, as they did, and to get it published in the newspapers and over the radio in Winnipeg, with the sole purpose of trying to smear a government which has made an effort to increase the standards of employment in the parks. With that information I think the house can take for granted the opinion which we hold of this group of men who deliberately set out to do such a thing.


Lester Bowles Pearson: May I ask the minister a question? Can he tell the committee who composes the group of men he talks about?
The minister said that when the hon. member for Brandon-Souris was in his seat he

would inform the house about this group and who were in the party in Brandon. That is the group presumably to which the hon. member has now referred in glowing terms.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I should not like to leave that impression on the record. The winter work committee has nothing to do with the committee referred to by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I rather suspect he was referring to the Liberal executive in Brandon which became involved in these discussions. I am not going to interject that note into the discussion here this afternoon but certain statements were made in the press from that source. I would presume that was the committee referred to by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. It had nothing whatever to do with the winter work committee which is a voluntary group of citizens who give of their time without remuneration in order to relieve the seasonal slump in employment that has been a part of our Canadian economic picture, mostly arising from severe winter weather conditions.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, we were talking at that time on February 18 about winter employment and about arrangements for the hiring of men in connection with this particular park. Surely there was no question in the mind of the minister that when this report was made it was made to a committee in Brandon which was concerned with that activity. If the minister was thinking of some other committee, he should at least be a little bit more careful in his words in the House of Commons on matters of this kind. He cast a serious reflection on a committee which he did not designate by name but which in our minds was a committee dealing with unemployment problems. Now the hon. member, some weeks later, said it was not that committee at all that the minister was talking about but that it was some other committee. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that at least the minister should be more careful in his references to these matters.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I rise on a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman. Surely the Leader of the Opposition would do the committee the courtesy of reading his second question on that day and my answer which I will read for the record. It is to be found at page 1146 of Hansard and is as follows:
I am almost positive that it is not the body known as the winter employment committee.
I think this reflection he has made on my remarks on that occasion, insinuating that I left the impression that this was the winter work committee, is improper and not pleasing to make in this chamber.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will read whatever the minister wants me to read on this matter. I do not want to do him an injustice. I asked him a question as follows:
May I ask the minister a question? Can he tell the committee who composes the group of men he talks about?
I have already put that on record. He answered that question in this way:
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Brandon-Souris is not in his seat. He knows the story and when the apropriate time comes possibly X will ask him to tell the house just exactly who were in that party, who they are and what positions they hold in the Liberal party.
Mr. Chairman, we were talking at that time in this house about a committee in Brandon dealing with winter employment. If the minister had in mind some other group of Liberal politicians in Brandon he should have made it perfectly clear that he was distinguishing between that group and any citizens committee. I am not doing him any injustice at all when I say that he left in our minds at that time the impression that that was the committee about which he was talking, but the hon. member now has said that it was not.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: On that point, Mr. Chairman, may I say that it is unfortunate that I was not in my place when this subject came up for discussion previously. Had I been in my place I am sure that this misunderstanding would not have occurred. As a matter of fact, I was in Manitoba taking part in a series of brotherhood banquets in connection with the activities of the Canadian council of Christians and Jews. I think this might be the appropriate note-I refer to the note of brotherhood-on which to conclude this discussion here this afternoon.


Murdo William Martin: Everyone knows that there is no one who embodies in his own person the concept of brotherhood more effectively than does the hon. gentleman who has just spoken. But apparently some of his colleagues have a different conception of brotherhood. In their case it does not extend to the brotherhood of man as apparently it did on the occasion of which the hon. gentleman spoke in Brandon under the auspices of the organization to which he referred.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: We invited the hon. member to be with us.


Murdo William Martin: Yes, my hon. friend is quite right, he invited me to go with him. If I had gone, undoubtedly he and I might have expressed the same concept of brotherhood which might not have been fully acceptable to some persons. I ask the hon. member-because he is the
Supply-Northern Affairs senior member from Manitoba, I believe- if he cannot enlighten us on another aspect of the grievance to which in principle the Leader of the Opposition has now directed our attention. When the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River spoke on February 18 he had a number of grievances in this respect. I referred to this particular question myself when I spoke on the address and I mentioned it last night, hoping that we would get some response from the Minister of Finance. But the Minister of Finance who, as I say, is heavily charged with other matters, could not give us an answer to this question. He looked knowingly at the seat- which was vacant last night-occupied by the hon. member for Brandon-Souris who undoubtedly was away on responsible business. It may have been a brotherhood meeting; I do not know. Then he looked over at the hon. member for Marquette. Undoubtedly he too last night was, as he is now, engaged in the furtherance of brotherhood. But the particular grievance which the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River had in mind, and which I had in mind last night and have now in mind, is the situation which prevailed in another Manitoba riding. That situation was brought to our attention by an article which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press dated January 12, 1959, and the heading of it was "I Hand Out the Jobs says Minnedosa Tory". This article appeared also in the Winnipeg Tribune of January 14 and it bears this headline: "Three M.P.'s Pick Needy for Park Project Jobs".
Is it true that a Conservative member of parliament who has no hesitation in designating himself as a Tory, says, "I hand out the jobs"; if that is the situation in Brandon, surely the hon. genleman when he next speaks on brotherhood ought to go into other ridings and speak on brotherhood there, because jobs should be given not only to Tories but to all Canadian citizens.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I must add a further word, Mr. Chairman, following the hon. member's comment. I did take pains to investigate the story to which he has referred, and I was informed that much of the information in that story with reference to the three members who handed out jobs was not derived from the source indicated, that is, from Mr. Weir, but was based on an inside knowledge of what used to take place in that area.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member confirm or deny the accuracy of a report that the labour council in Brandon, which is not, presumably, a Liberal organization, had forwarded a protest to Walter

Supply-Northern Affairs Dinsdale over the current method of allocating labour for winter work at Riding Mountain national park?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I did receive the protest. That protest arose over the story which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press, but which was first reported both on radio and television early in January. The Brandon labour council based their protest entirely on those stories and the facts contained in the story were not entirely correct as I have indicated. I checked the situation when I was back in the west and all the information was not given. All the details were not given by the man concerned, and it indicated some inside information from other sources. Where that inside information came from I do not know and I am not going to impute any motives, but it was not obtained from the source indicated in the story.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The hon. member says he got no such protest?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I said I did receive such a protest based on the story.


Lester Bowles Pearson: In other words, the member did receive a protest from the labour council in regard to allocating labour in this area, irrespective of the basis of the story, and it was a protest from the labour council of Brandon. The hon. member also said that the words attributed to Mr. Weir, which appeared in more than one newspaper, are not accurate; but they were quotations attributed to Mr. Weir?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That is the information I have, that all the details of that story were not quite accurate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the hon. member for Brandon-Souris if Mr. Weir has ever publicly denied that story?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I cannot say whether he has or not. My only basis of knowledge would be to see such denial in the public press, and I have never seen it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could I ask the hon. member one other question. I do not want to do him an injustice but did I understand him to say in his earlier statement that Mr. Weir had been appointed to give out these jobs before the present government came into office? I think he said that he found this was the practice before the present government came into office. Is he suggesting that Mr. Weir was doing this before the present government came into office, or how did Mr. Weir come to be doing it?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, we are now beating old straw because I have read the

Hansard, report of the discussion back in February, and I believe that information was all placed on the record by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I have been a member for Brandon-Souris since 1951, and I do know that the only employment area in Manitoba that operated outside the national employment service was that which operated in connection with the hiring of casual or seasonal employees at Clear Lake. That is why I suggested to my hon. friend from Fort William that if he would communicate with the former member for Dauphin he would be able to receive some enlightenment on certain aspects of this matter, because we used to try to resolve the difficulty. We could not resolve the difficulty in the first year of office of the new government. The old practice continued, and I was very unhappy about it. We took the initiative and the matter is now resolved. All the hiring is done through the national employment service, and quite recently even the Liberal association at Brandon made the statement to the press that everything was rosy in the garden in this respect.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Then can the member state flatly that the bad old Liberal ways of doing things in this particular area are gone, and as far as he is concerned gone forever?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: This was the last resort and it has gone.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Did the member in northern Manitoba who was associated with him act in the way the Liberals used to?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: No. I have a press statement from the manager of the local employment office in Brandon to this effect;
Mr. Bain said a meeting to discuss Riding Mountain hiring methods was recently held in Ottawa at the instigation of local M.P. Walter Dinsdale. He said Mr. Dinsdale is quite concerned over charges that men are being hired for the project because of their political affiliation.
He said that steps were being taken to see that the national employment office is in charge of placing all workers hired at the Riding Mountain national park. That story appeared in the press some weeks ago.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Just in closing, Mr. Chairman, since I brought this matter up originally and have been back to it several times over with other people as well, I would like to apologize if it has resulted in any embarrassment to the member. I would like to remind the hon. member that we have had several instances in my own riding which made me suspicious of this particular thing, especially in so far as the Department of Public Works and the Department of Transport are concerned. It

was that suspicion which led me to question him; it was no reflection on him at all.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forestry branch-
Forestry operations division-
767.	Contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory, reforestation and forest fire protection in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces-further amount required, $190,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I am very interested in this vote, the contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory, reforestation and forest fire protection in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces. Here is another further amount of $190,000 required, $150,000 with respect to forest inventory, and $40,000 with respect to reforestation. We support this increase wholeheartedly, and we support the policy wholeheartedly. But in view of the fact that there are agreements made with the provinces with respect to expenditures on forest inventory and reforestation, could the minister inform the house if this extra money is required because there have been more agreements signed, or is it because various provinces have undertaken more work in this connection this year?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is the latter, Mr. Chairman. The provinces have gone ahead with projects approved under the terms of the federal-provincial forestry agreements involving increased expenditure for the provinces.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: One other question. I am very interested in this question because I have seen some of the inventories being taken. What does the federal department do to make certain that the inventories in question have been undertaken in the way designated by the agreement?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Of course, Mr. Chairman, it is the responsibility of the federal government, the department concerned, to satisfy itself that the expenditures made by the provinces for which reimbursement is claimed from the federal government have been properly made in accordance with the provisions of the agreements.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In that connection, does the federal government have an official or an inspector make a check on the area concerned with respect to the inventory? In what way does the department receive an assurance that the area with which the inventory is concerned has been completely covered, and that the inventory has been scientifically secured?
Supply-Northern Affairs


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, there are, I am informed, no federal inspectors on the ground. This is done by aerial survey, and the aerial surveys are closely checked by federal officers.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: This may be partly done by aerial surveys, but I have been with parties who have been conducting ground surveys of the timber stands, so this work must be done partly by air and partly by ground survey teams. I have been with parties conducting these checks.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I should like to know whether in respect to this item there was any agreement entered upon with the province of Quebec concerning a forest inventory and forest fire protection.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The province of Quebec is not a party to the agreement in respect of the forest inventory and reforestation and it is these two matters which are covered by the further amount required.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Does that mean that the province of Quebec is the only province which does not benefit from these grants?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The province of Newfoundland is not a party to either of these programs. The province of New Brunswick is a party to one, namely forest inventory, and the province of Prince Edward Island to one, namely reforestation. Alberta is a party to one, namely the inventory. The other five provinces are parties to both agreements.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Would the minister inform the house if at any time since this government came to power there has been any communication with the authorities of the province of Quebec in respect to these grants either by letter, telephone or telegram?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There is an agreement with the province of Quebec in respect to forest fire protection, but the agreement does not extend to the two categories here mentioned, namely forest inventory and reforestation. One cannot say that in any discussions between officials this matter may not have come up, but we are not aware of any official communication on behalf of the government of the province in relation to the two matters now under discussion.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Will you permit me a few comments at this point, Mr. Chairman? We are dealing here with one aspect of the fiscal relations between Ottawa and Quebec, and the reason we are pressing for an agreement to be reached concerning all these grants, including those covered by this item 767, is because, first of all, these grants are badly needed and, secondy, because the Minister of Finance himself, as well as the

Supply-Northern Affairs 50 Conservative members from Quebec, have made a firm commitment with the citizens of the province of Quebec to solve the difficulties arising out of the negative stand taken by the premier of Quebec in his dealings with the federal government.
We now have evidence that nothing has been done to solve these problems, and we also have evidence that all the other provinces are benefiting from these grants. It therefore appears to us that in spite of these promises the situation is perhaps worse than it has ever been, and for this reason-that there is now more confusion because of the fact that there are now 50 Quebec Conservative members who are seeking their instructions from Mr. Duplessis-


Some hon. Members:: Order.
The Depuiy Chairman: I do not think the hon. member can continue along those lines.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like you to point out now, Mr. Chairman, on what basis and under what rule the statement which has just been made by the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont is out of order, because I think-


Charles Edward Rea: Because the hon. member imputed motives and because he is referring to a provincial matter.


Lionel Chevrier: He has not imputed motives. He has said what he thinks of the attitude of the premier of another province, and making that statement cannot be interpreted as an imputation of motives.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Surely, if I may add a word, after the display we had from the Prime Minister on Monday about the premier of another province, the chairman is not going to deny to a humble backbencher the right to refer to the premier of Quebec.


Charles Edward Rea: I did not stop the hon. member for referring to him-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is the point not this? It is a question of whether it is or is not a breach of the privileges of the house to say that any hon. member in his actions here is simply doing what somebody outside the house has told him to do. We have had this matter up before, and my understanding is that it has been ruled to be a breach of privilege to say that hon. members in their actions here are simply doing what they are told to do by someone outside.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. member did not refer to any individual member. If he had done so it might have been different. He referred to 50 or 51 members, and I do not think the rule is the same in these circumstances. Certainly there was no imputation or motive
[Mr. Deschatelets.l

to the premier of the province, and I think that is what the chairman had in mind.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: In my remarks I had in mind, of course-and this is a fact which cannot be denied-that when a question connected with federal grants to the province of Quebec has arisen we have seen in many instances 20 or 25 Quebec Conservative members leave the house in order to avoid taking a stand.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Highly improper[
The Depuiy Chairman: I do not see that has any relevance at all to this question.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What is wrong with the statement that has just been made by the hon. gentleman? He has stated as a matter of fact that a number of representatives from the province of Quebec seated on the government benches decided not to join in a particular vote. That is a fact.


Donald Methuen Fleming: A highly improper statement!


Paul Joseph James Martin: What can be wrong in the hon. member saying so? He is making an argument and he is adducing certain facts in support of that argument. The chairman has just told him he cannot do it. We can be called to order but we have the right to argue the point of order.


Charles Edward Rea: What the Chair is saying is that what the hon. member is talking about is not relevant to vote 767.


Lionel Chevrier: But it is, Mr. Chairman.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, is not this the fact: there is a plain rule of this committee that no hon. member may reflect upon the vote of another hon. member? That is precisely what is involved here The hon. member who has been speaking as you correctly said, if I may say so, is talking about something quite apart from what is now under discussion and he has no right to reflect on the vote of any hon. member on any subject.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, no one is reflecting on a vote. The remarks that have been made refer to the refusal of certain hon. members to vote but there is no reflection on the vote of any hon. members.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Shirking their duty.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words on this point. There seems to be a complete misapprehension about this question. There appears to be an apprehension on the part of some hon. members that this item is not a matter upon which certain hon. members from the province of

Quebec have made a decision by their vote. As the hon. member for Maisonneuve-Rosemont stated a moment ago it is a matter purely within dominion-provincial relations. This is a matter in which, as the minister has said, the province of Quebec has refused to accept grants. Therefore, surely the hon. member has the right to discuss that question and in discussing it to say what the views of the premier of that province are and what the views of certain hon. members who support the premier of that province are. That is what the hon. member was seeking to do and in that respect I submit he was in order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, we are dealing here with two matters and only two, namely forest inventory and reforestation. This does not permit any hon. member to launch into a discussion of dominion-provincial fiscal relations.


Lionel Chevrier: But it does.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It permits discussion, Mr. Chairman, of the relations between the dominion and the provinces only in respect of forest inventories and reforestation and not the relations between the dominion and the provinces with regard to any other matter.


Lionel Chevrier: I agree.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. Standing order 35 is what I was referring to. It reads in part, as follows:
No member may reflect upon any vote of the house, except for the purpose of moving that such vote be rescinded.
In his remarks the hon. member was talking about votes that had been taken, as I understood it.


Jean-Paul Deschatelets: Mr. Chairman, I have
only one further comment to make on this matter. It is my belief that the point I am raising concerns one aspect of the fiscal relations between Ottawa and the province of Quebec. I hope the minister will not think we are raising these issues simply because Quebec is involved because our stand in this matter of fiscal relations has been clearly indicated over the years. We have always believed and still believe that under the British North America Act not only are the provinces equal but that all the provinces are entitled to an equal share of the wealth of this country. Because many of my hon. friends opposite have taken the commitment not to accept and indeed to talk against these federal grants it is our intention when this discussion is over to ask you to call for the yeas and nays.
Supply-Northern Affairs


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister why it is that the province of Quebec is not participating in this vote?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The government of that province has chosen not to do so, just as some other provinces have chosen not to. The statement was made a moment ago that Quebec was the only province in that category, but it is not at all. There are five of the ten provinces which have chosen not to participate in one or both of these two programs.


Lionel Chevrier: Is the minister able to say why the province of Quebec has decided not to participate in these programs?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: Mr. Chairman, may I ask what provinces do receive benefit under the vote?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I gave the list of those that do not and I suppose we could arrive at the others by subtraction. Those that come in on both programs are British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Nova Scotia.


Lionel Chevrier: Does the minister not concede the fact that this particular vote is a portion of the larger question of dominion-provincial relations as between the federal government and the province of Quebec?


Donald Methuen Fleming: For the purpose of discussing this item, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Batten:: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister if he would give us the breakdown of the $190,000 showing the amount received by each province now benefiting from this grant?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I will give my hon. friend the totals which are in the combined main and supplementary votes:



FOREST INVENTORIES

[Stage Direction]
British Columbia	 $454,696
Alberta	 104,411
Saskatchewan	 16,987
Manitoba	 32,378
Ontario	 195,350
New Brunswick	 10,500
Nova Scotia	 25,623

[Stage Direction]
British Columbia	 26,000
Saskatchewan	 2,875
Manitoba	 15,000
Ontario	 185,550
Nova Scotia	 4,190
Prince Edward Island	 16,310
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like
to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources a rather technical question in connection with this vote. It is currently being discussed that the basis of forest fire regulations in Ontario is going to be changed

Supply-Privy Council and that some onus will be taken off the pulp and paper companies who have certain leases. Is that going to have any effect on the agreements the provinces have with the federal government in so far as contributions toward forest fire protection is concerned?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that this question could be asked more properly either in the standing committee or when my estimates are before the house. I should like to have my officials here when I answer it. I know there is a connection but it would take too long to obtain an answer at this moment.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, in answer
to a question I asked a few moments ago the Minister of Finance listed five provinces and in answer to a subsequent question he indicated seven provinces. There appears to be a conflict in the two answers.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not at all, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member was not in his place when X went over this.


George James McIlraith: I am sorry, but I was in
my place.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have already
explained the nature of these two programs. There are two programs that are involved here. In going over this some time earlier I pointed out that there are two provinces that do not participate in either of the two programs, Quebec and Newfoundland. I pointed out that there are three provinces which participate in only one program. The province of Alberta participates in the inventory program but not in the reforestation program. The province of New Brunswick participates in the inventory program but not in the reforestation program. The province of Prince Edward Island participtates in the reforestation program but not in the inventory program. What I was saying is that there are five provinces that participate in both and there are five that do not participate in one or other of the programs or both.


George James McIlraith: In other words the minister is now explaining that his previous answer to my question was not in accordance with the facts.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not at all.


Charles Edward Rea: Is the committee
ready for the question?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Item agreed to: Yeas, 67; nays, nil.



PRIVY COUNCIL

[Stage Direction]
Special-
768.	Expenses pertaining to the visit to Canada in 1959 of Her Majesty the Queen and His Royal Highness the Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, including authority, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act or any other act but subject to the approval of treasury board, to appoint and to pay persons to be engaged temporarily in connection therewith, $33,000.
Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, can the minister explain what preliminary expenses have run as high as the amount he is asking for here? I understand the royal visit will take place several months hence. Is the minister able to explain to the committee what kind of flag will be flown when Her Majesty as queen of Canada is aboard the yacht in a Canadian river?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the answer to the first question is that the expenditures to March 31, 1959, consist of pay and allowances for army personnel, salaries, professional and special services, travelling expenses, printing, stationery and supplies and sundries. The total is $33,000. The anwer to the second question I think should come from someone other than myself in due time, Mr. Chairman.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like the minister to tell us something about the arrangements that are going to be made. I know that so far as the hon. member for Fort William and myself are concerned we would like to know something about the arrangements for the royal party coming into our area, for example. We do not want suddenly to discover on the day that we have to get permission from the defeated Conservative candidate to appear on the scene. Has the minister any information in this regard?


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, there is no more information than has already been given to the house and the public. Detailed arrangements, of course, cannot be made known until the time more closely approaches.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Let me come to the assistance of the minister who is a privy councillor. I want to inform him that the royal yacht Britannia is a unit of the royal navy and will fly flags required by admiralty regulations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
769.	Distribution of official documents-further amount required, $13,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: I have one question to ask the minister on this item. How much

of this $13,000 was expended on the distribution of the "Canadian Economic Outlook for 1958"?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is not possible, Mr. Chairman, for me to break this amount down into small segments. Actually, the item relates to other expenditures than the actual printing. It consists of freight, express and cartage, postage, advertising, office stationery, supplies and equipment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
773. Expenses incurred by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in constructing and supervising construction of married quarters, rental housing, schools and related services on behalf of the Department of National Defence-further amount required, $270,000.
Mr. Garland:: According to the reference, the details are on page 22, but there are fewer details on page 22 than are listed in the item itself. Can the minister explain where this is to be expended?


Donald Methuen Fleming: As the item indicates, Mr. Chairman, this relates to expenses incurred by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in constructing and supervising construction of married quarters, rental housing, schools and related services on behalf of the Department of National Defence. The fact is that the construction work has exceeded what was originally anticipated. This is the whole sum and substance of the item. We are faced with increased costs.


John Richard Garland: Can the minister give us some details as to where this overexpenditure occurred?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Well, it is not confined to any one place; this is in the entire program.


John Richard Garland: Can the minister say whether any part of this money or of the general vote was devoted to the development at Moosonee? There was a story in the Financial Post, I believe, some weeks ago -


Donald Methuen Fleming: I can tell my hon. friend the answer is no.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is this additional amount required because the estimates made originally for the cost of those buildings were inaccurate and they have had to be exceeded?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the program is larger. The Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has, on the instructions of the government, gone ahead with
Supply-Public Works
this program of constructing more houses and has incurred higher costs.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is it more houses or is it higher costs? That is the point of my question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Both. I should like to enlarge on the answer. The program was enlarged. The Department of National Defence required more houses and this program was enlarged, the government having in mind the provision of winter work as well.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Can the minister tell us whether some of those additional houses were to be built for those members of the Royal Canadian Air Force who were to fly the Arrow?


John Richard Garland: Can the minister clarify this. Is it in fact for construction or simply for administration?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is reimbursement to the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for its administrative expenses in supervising on behalf of the Department of National Defence this larger program in the construction of houses.


John Richard Garland: Then it is not construction at all.


Donald Methuen Fleming: My hon. friend asked me how the item arose. It arises out of the enlarged program, more expensive program of construction, undertaken at the request of the Department of National Defence, and Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is entitled to be reimbursed for its increased administrative expenses as a result of this enlarged program carried out on behalf of the Department of National Defence.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Then this $270,000 is not for
the construction of more houses; it is not for extra costs that go into the construction of those houses; it is only for extra costs of administration in respect of the new program?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The cost of the construction of the houses themselves is provided in the estimates of the Department of National Defence. This is the repayment to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for the services it rendered as an administrative agent.


John Richard Garland: One more point, I notice in the 1957-58 estimates the item of $720,000 was reduced; in other words, there was a reduction of $280,000. Now we find a third supplementary increase of $270,000. What was the reason for the original reduction?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The program of construction which was contemplated when

Supply-R.C.M.P.
that main item was drawn and put before the house was not as large a program as was carried out at the request of the Department of National Defence. It was to meet needs on the part of the Department of National Defence, plus a desire to provide work so far as possible.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I wonder if the minister could give us any information as to where this new defence housing construction is taking place for which this amount is required for additional administrative costs? We are cutting down on our national defence expenditure, so I wonder why this increase in national defence housing?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is all over the country. It is not in just one place; the program was stepped up.


Mr. Bourgei:: Surely if the minister is right in saying that the program has been enlarged he must know where it has been enlarged and where the construction is taking place.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is in all parts of Canada.


John Richard Garland: The minister gave me a sort of fast no on my question about Moosonee. I would not want him to conclude from my question, which perhaps was not too informative, that I was referring to the port project or anything of that kind. This was a proposed expenditure which the Financial Post reported would be made on behalf of the Department of National Defence. I wondered if the minister had had an opportunity to confer with his officials about this?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There is nothing in this item for the construction of married quarters at Moosonee or arising out of the construction of married quarters at Moosonee.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE Land and Air Services-[DOT]
774. Operation and maintenance of divisions- further amount required, $494,000.
Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister is in a position to tell us how it is that the original estimates were out by this rather large amount. I note that travelling and removal expenses, especially, were miscalculated by $140,000. This is an item that one would expect would be fairly standard and very easily predicted ahead of time. The item for clothing was miscalculated by $100,000, and the item for repairs and upkeep of equipment, by $110,000. It would seem to indicate there has been a serious accident to one of the buildings or something of that nature. Is the minister in a position to offer

any explanation of these three items, travelling and removal expenses, clothing and repairs and upkeep of equipment?


Donald Methuen Fleming: These several items, as indeed the entire item, are attributable broadly to increased activities on the part of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The increase in travelling and removal expenses of $140,000 is the provision for expenses of members of the force on investigations and patrols throughout the country. There has been an increase this year in the number of investigations and that has automatically resulted in an increase in travelling expenses. There has been an increase in the strength of the force and that also has contributed to this result.
The item of $100,000 for clothing arises from the same reason. The third item, repairs and upkeep of equipment of $110,000, is distributed over all the equipment of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and represents an increase for the supply of motor transport, inland and water transport, radio equipment and miscellaneous equipment.


Mr. Badanai:: The minister just made a statement that there has been an increase in the force. Could the minister tell us the number of additional members in the force?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The authorized establishment for 1958-59 was increased by 367. This does not mean that the increase resulted all at once because, as the hon. gentleman is aware, recruitment is carried on gradually.


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: There was an increase of $3,197,000 in the main estimates for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police introduced earlier. There is an additional $494,000 in the supplementary estimates, making a total of over $3.5 million increase for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Has there been any substantial increase in the force that would correspond to this rather large increase?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, I just gave the figures.


Lester Bowles Pearson: When the minister was on this side the things that used to arouse him most easily and bring his critical faculties to the fore most vigorously when he accused the government of waste and extravagance were items concerning informational material or what he called propaganda. We have already passed an increase under this item. The item for telephones, telegrams and other communication services was the other to arouse him. This is the third time this afternoon we have had an increase in regard

to telephones, telegrams and other communication services. This increase in the supplementary estimates is $30,000. Is not the minister, as chairman of the treasury board, worried about the increased cost of these governmental services, telephones and telegrams, which used to worry him so greatly in other times?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This particular increase is attributable to the increased activities of the force.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF SECRETARY OF STATE Patent and Copyright Office-
776.	Patent division-further amount required, $198,000.
John Whitney Pickersgill: Before this carries, I should like to ask the minister if this division is completely self-sufficient now?


Donald Methuen Fleming: In what respect does my hon. friend mean self-sufficient?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The minister will probably recall that when I was Secretary of State I introduced legislation to increase the fees with a view to making the persons who received this service pay for it instead of the taxpayers. I wondered whether or not that result had been achieved.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot give my hon. friend a conclusive answer on that. I shall be glad to check on the balance and communicate with him.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The companies item passed before I could get up, so would the minister do the same for the companies division?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
777.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $76,600.
George James McIlraith: In the details on page 23 relating to this item there appears an item for salaries of $18,000. I should like to ask the minister if this is an increase for a particular salary or does it represent a shortage in the general item of salaries for the department?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This item results from a fuller recruitment program and the addition of the position of associate deputy minister.


George James McIlraith: If this position of associate deputy minister is provided for out of this item, how much is the salary?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The annual rate for that position is $16,500. This, of course, is
Supply-Transport
for a portion of the year and the balance applies to the recruitment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would you call it five o'clock, Mr. Chairman?


Lionel Chevrier: No, Mr. Chairman. Notwithstanding what my colleague has said, may I say that we are prepared to carry on with these supplementary estimates.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I thank my hon. friend for that suggestion, and may I say this to the committee: We have about 15 items left, and I think they are not difficult ones. They are not the sort that are likely to detain the committee long. May I point out to the committee that we have to take account of the fact that the appropriation bill has to be passed before the recess next Wednesday. Then, we have the other place to consider. Unless we are able to get this bill passed here and over to the other place to be dealt with next week, it does not look as though it would be possible to have the appropriation bill passed before the recess, and therefore very grave difficulties will result as I am sure all hon. members are aware. I would add to the remarks of the hon. member for Laurier, for which I thank him, a request to the committee that we carry on and see whether we cannot complete these remaining items today.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Charles Edward Rea: The committee cannot carry on itself. However, if it is agreeable, I shall report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Thank you.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Speaker:: I understand that the house is prepared to give unanimous consent to reverting to the business with which it was dealing in committee at five o'clock.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: By unanimous consent the house will revert to committee of supply.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Marine services-
780. Ship channel service-St. Lawrence and Saguenay rivers-Administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $259,574.

Supply-Transport


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to make an inquiry here. I am sorry the Minister of Transport is not in his seat. I presume he is unavoidably absent. I think he should be here during the consideration of these estimates. After all, when I look at the list of them, I find that they are practically one-fifth of the estimates of the whole department. I consider that as being something fairly substantial. The question that comes to my mind is this. Does the government intend to open the St. Lawrence ship channel from Quebec to Montreal during the winter season?


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is a matter for the future. I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend that information. However, I shall be glad to communicate his question to the Minister of Transport when he returns to Ottawa and the reply will be communicated to my hon. friend.


Lionel Chevrier: I have a few remarks to make on this matter. I had hoped to make them when the Minister of Transport was in his seat because I consider them to be of fairly serious import.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Do they arise on this particular item?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: After all, this is just a clean-up to March 31.


Lionel Chevrier: They arise out of consideration of the St. Lawrence ship channel which is a channel 35 feet in depth extending from Montreal to 30 miles below Quebec and which I know very well. I make these remarks now because there will be no other opportunity to make them until the general estimates are up for consideration or until the matters concerning the Department of Transport are up for discussion. I have reference to the situation which obtained when all of these foreign ships, because of the freeze-up, were caught in the Lachine canal and then were taken down the St. Lawrence ship channel. While the officers who were responsible for operating the icebreakers deserve commendation-and I am thinking now of the captain of the D'Iberville, the captain of the Ernest Lapointe and the captain of a third vessel, which vessels were responsible for keeping open the ship channel -I think that Canada received quite a black eye from the manner in which this operation was performed. I would be the last one to lay any blame on former officers of a department over which I presided for some nine years. I do not intend to do that. What I intend to say here is this. While those who operated the icebreakers deserve
IMr. Speaker.]
a great deal of commendation, there was on this occasion a tremendous lack of coordination as between the various divisions of the Department of Transport. I have reference to the St. Lawrence ship channel service, the canal services and other divisions of the Department of Transport and the national harbours board. My purpose in saying this is that because of the long time it took to get these ships through the St. Lawrence ship channel-the item that is under discussion now-Canada has received much bad publicity. It has received this black eye in foreign countries that will be operating ships into the St. Lawrence and the great lakes through the St. Lawrence seaway which will be open to navigation soon.
The question uppermost in the minds of those people is this. Why is it that this incident had to happen and what assurance have we that in the future it will not happen again? I have a suggestion to make. It is not a new one. It has been made before but I think it should be given careful consideration. The first suggestion I make is that the St. Lawrence ship channel which we are discussing now should be widened. Engineers who have had it under their responsibility for years have been recommending to the government and to the Department of Transport the widening of this channel. That is the first suggestion that I am prompted to make under this item.
The next suggestion that comes to my mind is that there should be additional icebreakers in order to protect from flooding the areas surrounding metropolitan Montreal. When the water in the Montreal harbour reaches elevation 40, that is the elevation at which flooding in the Montreal area begins to cause a great deal of anxiety. This danger occurs only during the period when the discharge capacity of the river has been reduced by reason of the peculiar ice and temperature conditions which obtain in that area from December to April of each year. The experience in the Department of Transport has been that the earlier icebreakers get to work, the better it is for prevention of these flooding conditions.
There are studies which have been made in the department. There is a study which was made in 1947 by a board of engineers which was established for the purpose of considering power and navigation development in the Lachine section, and also studies were made as to ice conditions in the Montreal harbour and in the St. Lawrence ship channel. A study of those conditions was made to ascertain whether or not in the operation of the ship channel, which as the house knows is a separate division of the Department of

Transport, it could be possible to avoid once and for all the flooding, these inundations, which take place on both sides of the river because of the frazil ice in the whole of the Laprairie basin.
As the committee knows, where the Mercier bridge crosses the St. Lawrence river there is a very narrow neck of the river, and because of the tremendous amount of water which comes down during the non-navigation period there is created a condition which is tantamount to an ice-making plant. This ice has the capacity and the strength to pile up and cause tremendous damage. So that it is important that the ship channel which we are discussing now is kept open during the nonnavigation season. The officials of the Department of Transport have done their best over the years to make recommendations in accordance therewith to the department, and over that period of years the department has seen to it that more and stronger icebreakers were constructed in order to avoid this serious and dangerous situation.
So that with respect to this item, the two suggestions which I would like to make are: One, the widening of the ship channel to a minimum width of 800 feet and, second, the addition of more icebreakers to operate in the channel so that the ship channel would be kept open not only from Quebec to Sorel but all the way up from Sorel to Montreal.


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member whether he thinks we should use icebreakers to keep the St. Lawrence open for navigation to the detriment of the winter business of ports such as Saint John?


Lionel Chevrier: I expected that question, Mr. Chairman, and I am glad the hon. member asked it. If the hon. member had listened to what I said, he would have seen I was dealing exclusively with the question of inundation and flooding. I did not discuss the other. But since my hon. friend wants to know what I would say with reference to the second part of his question, I would add this, that because of the opening of the St. Lawrence seaway it has been estimated that the traffic will be trebled in that area. That being so, I have no doubt that the port councils and authorities of the ports of Saint John and Halifax, which associations and groups are alert, will want to make sure a substantial portion of this traffic accrues to them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway and Steamship Services-
781. Payments to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the company to the Minister of
Supply-Transport
Finance, to be applied by the company in payment of the deficits, certified by the auditors of the company, arising in the operations in the calendar year 1958-further amounts required- Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals, 124,689.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what plans the government has in mind, since we are now discussing the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminal, to build a causeway between the mainland and Prince Edward Island. The minister will remember that is a matter of extreme concern to the house. It was a matter which was discussed on more than one occasion, and was, I believe, recommended to the royal commission on economic prospects. I would like to know whether the government has any plans in this respect and when these will be made known?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the subject is under study. As I think my hon. friend is aware, engineers have been retained to make a study.


Lionel Chevrier: Then still dealing with the item, notwithstanding the study which is being made, I would like to know whether or not the hon. minister is aware that the services which now operate between Prince Edward Island and the mainland are quite inadequate? My question is, what provision pending this study of the causeway is being made by the government for an additional service between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, because the present car ferry services are certainly not adequate?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This item provides for the deficit in the operation of the present Prince Edward Island car ferry service. The operating revenues have increased, but the operating expenses have increased substantially more than the revenues.


Lionel Chevrier: Does the government intend to build another ferry pending the consideration which will be given to the causeway? As my hon. friend knows, the study of the causeway and even a recommendation favourable to a causeway would take a matter of quite some time. I am not able to say, but it would certainly take a matter of years. What is going to happen to the service in the meantime? Is consideration being given therefore to the construction of an additional ferry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, no step has been taken with reference to any possible increase in the service, pending the report of the engineers on this present survey. The government will be guided by the reports which are received at this preliminary stage of the engineering study.

Supply-Transport


Lionel Chevrier: I do not want to delay this, but here the two questions are entirely separate and apart. One is the construction of a causeway from the mainland to Prince Edward Island; meanwhile the present ferry services are not adequate, and it may be that the causeway will not be built for several years if at all. What is being done by the government in the meantime? Is provision being made for the construction of an additional ferry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: We hope to have guidance in approaching that problem from the preliminary reports of the engineers who are studying the causeway proposal.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Strait of Canso-
783.	Transportation improvements and facilities- further amount required, $54,500.
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. minister explain what this item is for? It is a large item, $54,500 for transportation improvements and facilities. The Canso causeway has been completed now for quite a number of years, and it occurs to me that perhaps we might have an explanation.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This item is required to clear up some outstanding claims for compensation arising out of the construction of the causeway. As the hon. member indicated, it was completed. Actually, on April 1, 1957 it was deemed to be completed, but there have been some outstanding claims which required to be settled, and this item provides for them.


Maurice Bourget: There is an item for auto ferry vessel for service between Pelee island and the mainland, Ontario. Could the minister tell us where this auto ferry vessel was built, and if tenders were asked for the building of that ferry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is my hon. friend on No. 784, Mr. Chairman?


Charles Edward Rea: No. 783.


Maurice Bourget: The details are on page 24, and it is the fourth item, "Auto ferry vessel for service between Pelee island and the mainland, Ontario".


Donald Methuen Fleming: That pertains to the next item, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
784.	Construction or acquisition of auto-ferry vessels and equipment as listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects- further amount required, $1.
Maurice Bourget: Can I now have an answer to my question, since we are on item 784?


Donald Methuen Fleming: All of these transport services are called by tender.


Lionel Chevrier: The minister says this has been done by tender. Has this ship not been built by the government for the purpose of operating between Pelee island and the mainland?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The contract for the construction of this auto ferry vessel is under negotiation at the present time with the Erieau Shipbuilding and Drydock Company Limited of Erieau. The lowest price quoted was $448,000. The ship will be a twin screw vessel designed to carry 300 passengers and 14 automobiles.


Lionel Chevrier: I take it that a contract has been awarded to this company.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Lionel Chevrier: And I understand, further, that this ship will be turned over to private enterprise for operation between the mainland and Pelee island.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, there will be a call for tenders for rendering that service.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. I want to take that a step further, because following the call for tenders the government will enter into a contract either through the Department of Transport or through the maritime commission for the operation of this service. Does the minister think that this is an appropriate policy to follow? Here is a government-owned ship. Why does the government not operate the ship rather than turn it over to private enterprise for operation, after having built it?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is the way the
operation was carried on previously. The ship had been operated before under just such an arrangement in the hon. gentleman's time when he was minister of transport. That ship proved unseaworthy and it is being replaced by the ship I have mentioned. The arrangement as to the operation which obtained hitherto was felt to be the best in the circumstances, and it is proposed to continue in the same way.


Lionel Chevrier: Indeed it was, and I thank the minister for his answer. The point I wanted to make was that when we were in office we were criticized from this side of the house for following this arrangement. That is why I had hoped to see the Minister of Transport here, because while he was not, as far as I remember, among those who criticized this policy and this former contract, there were certainly a number of members who did so most bitterly from this side of the house, and I am glad to see that now the hon. gentlemen

opposite having the responsibility of office they follow exactly the same policy as was laid down in former days.


Murdo William Martin: I hope the Minister of Finance will use his good offices to see that there is no delay in this matter, because this ship will serve to link the mainland of Essex county with Pelee island, the most southerly point of Canada and possibly, as the hon. member for Essex West may agree, the most favoured spot in the whole country.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If this ship will take the hon. gentleman for a ride I will do my best to expedite its construction.
Newfoundland coastal services-
785.	Construction or acquisition of passenger-cargo vessels and equipment-further amount required including authority for expenditures on harbour facilities, $1.


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: This item concerns the construction or acquisition of passenger cargo vessels and equipment. Has a contract been awarded for the construction of such a vessel or vessels, and will the ships when completed belong to the Department of Transport?


Donald Methuen Fleming: As the hon. member is aware the Newfoundland coastal services are operated on behalf of the government by Canadian National Railways. This present item of $1 is designed to authorize the expenditure from this vote of moneys for the purpose of the construction of a wharf and freight shed at Corner Brook and a wharf extension and freight shed at Lewisporte, both in Newfoundland.


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: So there is no question of the construction of a ship?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not in this additional authority.


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: Why, then, does the minister use such words in this item as "the construction or acquisition of passenger cargo vessels"? Why not simply say that this is for the construction of a wharf and sheds, if that is all the department is doing?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is the standard wording.


Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin: It is confusing, though.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Minister of Finance is a little confused today.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
786.	Yarmouth, Nova Scotia-Bar Harbour, Maine, U.S.A., ferry service-deficit 1958-further amount required, $38,346.
Lionel Chevrier: I see this is in respect of a deficit on the operation of the Yarmouth-Bar Harbour ferry. Would the minister care to
Supply-Transport
tell the committee how the profit and loss position of this ferry operation is working out? I remember that when it was announced in the house under the previous administration a statement was given, either by myself or by my successor, as to what the financial position was likely to be, having in mind the traffic which was expected at the time, and my recollection is that a small profit was expected or, perhaps, it was a small loss. I do not think that this is too much out of line, but I wonder if the minister could clear this up.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The operation is
showing an improvement financially. The net deficit in 1956 was $304,000. In the year 1957 -perhaps I could give round figures-it was $278,000, and in 1958, $203,000. There has been a steady improvement, but the result this year is not quite as good as had been expected when the first estimate was made.


Lionel Chevrier: What is the anticipated
over-all deficit for this year 1959? This item, as I understand it, is, in part, for 1959.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, this is 1958.


Lionel Chevrier: Does it not run up to March 31, 1959?


Donald Methuen Fleming: In this particular
case the deficit is calculated by the calendar year. The operation of the service is carried out on a calendar year basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
787.	Payment to Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the minister of transport, made by the company to the minister of finance, in the amount of the deficit, certified by the auditors of the company, in the operations of the company in the calendar year 1958-further amount required, $361,954.
Lionel Chevrier: This item concerns the vessels of the Canadian National Steamships and I think the minister should give us a report on the position of these vessels. There were eight such ships. They were rendered idle by a strike almost two years ago and then, as the minister knows, the flag was transferred with the approval of the government to one of the countries of the West Indian Federation. Then the ships were retransferred to Canada in order to facilitate their operation by crews from the federation. I understand that did not take place. Still later these ships were sold to a company operating under a flag other than that of Canada.
We are now being asked to vote $361,954. I would like to know first of all what this amount is for because the ships have not been operated for two years. I would also

Supply-Transport
like to know what happened to the ships because although they have been sold they are still in Halifax with the exception of one which I am told is in Baltimore. Third, I am interested in knowing what has been the result of these two transfers, the transfer to the federation and the retransfer back to Canada. What has this transfer of flag accomplished? It seems to me if we are being asked to vote this large sum of money we should receive answers to those questions.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman,
this item is designed to pay the expenses that were incurred during the past year. It is within the knowledge of all hon. members that the ships were not operated and there was consequently no operating revenue. There were expenses, however, of a rather substantial nature. They resulted in a net operating loss, representing expenses incurred of $1,114,726, to which must be added interest on government loans of $37,228, arriving at a net deficit of $1,151,954. Of that sum $790,000 had been provided in the main and supplementary estimates and consequently this further supplementary estimate of $361,954 is required to complete the payment of the expenses for the year 1958.


Lionel Chevrier: What I fail to understand is this. If the ships have not been operating for two years how can there be this deficit? I can understand how there would be a deficit for the first year that the ships were not in operation but they have not been in operation for a period of over 20 months, almost two years. I fail to understand why there should be this deficitory position.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There were layup expenses and wages of the officers of the ship who were aboard. I can give my hon. friend a breakdown. The actual layup expenses aggregate $750,534. I can give the expenses in detail if the hon. gentleman wishes. Details of expenses are as follows:
Wages of Officers Standing By	 $ 253,778
Fuel	 80,051
Provisions	 19,853
Supplies	 46,986
Insurance	 97,723
Port and Shore Salaries and Expenses ..	239,252
Sundry Expenses	 12,981
TOTAL	 $ 750,534
Depreciation on vessels	 $ 174,187
Management and office expenses	 147,571
Pensions	 39,237
All other expenses	 3,197
TOTAL	 $1,114,726


Lionel Chevrier: Could I have answers to
my other two questions?


Donald Methuen Fleming: With respect to the second point I have no information as to 
the physical whereabouts of the vessels. My hon. friend has indicated that the information he has is correct. I have no further or other information on that point.
On the third point, I have no further information as to subsequent transactions following the sale by the Canadian National Steamships.


Lionel Chevrier: Could I ask the minister
how many men were involved in this transaction? In other words how many men were employed on these ships? How many officers were employed? What arrangements were made to find employment for both the officers and the men?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I have not got the precise number of officers that were engaged. I understand that all the officers of the ships carried on. Whether any men in addition to the officers were included, I do not know. If my hon. friend wishes that information I shall be glad to obtain it for him from Canadian National Steamships.
The other question raised by the hon. member was as to what provision is being made for these officers. They are being absorbed into the Department of Transport as openings occur.


Lionel Chevrier: The minister says that the officers were carried on but that is a mistate-ment of fact. I have correspondence from a number of officers who have not been carried on and who have been complaining very bitterly.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Are we speaking of different periods? I was speaking of the period of the layup. I thought my hon. friend was asking about the number of persons carried on the payroll in the period of layup. I gave a figure for wages to officers standing by of $253,778. I thought that was the period to which my hon. friend was directing his question but apparently I misunderstood him.


Lionel Chevrier: I was directing my attention to this. How many officers and men were employed on the Canadian National Steamships-


Donald Methuen Fleming: At what period?


Lionel Chevrier: Now. They have lost their jobs. I thought this item referred to March 31, 1959 but the minister tells me it relates to the calendar year 1958. What has happened to the officers and men during the whole of 1958 when the ships were sold? It is a fact that these crews were laid off and so were the officers. What has been done by the Canadian National Steamships or the Department of Transport to find employment for both the officers and the crew?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The officers were carried on up until the date of the sale byCanadian National Steamships and the appropriation for their salary is the figure I gave. Now, when the ships were sold-


Lionel Chevrier: Which was about a year ago.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Approximately. I think it was less than a year ago. From the time of that sale, as I have indicated, the Department of Transport has been absorbing the officers as vacancies and openings have occurred in the service of the department.


Lionel Chevrier: What about the crews which numbered 2,000 to 3,000 men?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does the hon. member mean the striking crew?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I mean the men who manned these seven or eight ships. What happened to them?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does my hon. friend refer to the crews who were on strike?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have no informa-as to how they are engaged at present.


Mr. Spencer:: I think they are probably still on strike.


Lionel Chevrier: My hon. friend does not seem to be too interested in their welfare judging from that remark.


Norman Leonard Spencer: Why do you say that?


Lionel Chevrier: Here are men who have been without work for over two years because of the policy of the government. The government, instead of maintaining those ships in accordance with the recommendation made by the Canadian National Steamships several years ago, over a five-year period, refused to accept that recommendation and instead transferred the flag to a Panamanian country. That is what has caused all the difficulty. Several thousand men are out of work, plus the officers. I am sorry to have to challenge the answer which the minister gave me because I submit to him with deference that it is not correct. I have in my office many letters from officers of those ships who state that they have had their employment severed with the Canadian National Steamships and they have found no work in the Department of Transport.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I did not say they had all been absorbed by the Department of Transport. I said they were being absorbed by the department as vacancies occur. That is the policy of the department.


Lionel Chevrier: That is the policy of the department but it has not worked out. That 66968-9-134
Supply-Transport
is the point I am trying to make. Notwithstanding the fact the minister says they are being absorbed, I would like to know how many are being absorbed. First of all, I should like to know how many officers there were, how many have been absorbed and how many are left without employment at the moment?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I recall a statement being made in this house by my colleague the Minister of Transport to the effect that eventually all of those officers would be absorbed by the Department of Transport. It is a matter of their being absorbed as vacancies in the department arise.


Lionel Chevrier: I recall that statement very well also and I have had to write your colleague, the Minister of Transport, to point out a number of cases such as I referred to earlier where there has been no absorption and where it has not been possible to find vacancies. After all, where are the vacancies going to be, if not on the ships of the Department of Transport, and there are not seven or eight ships in the Department of Transport which will require all of these officers. I am not going to insist on it now but I think we should be entitled to a statement from the Minister of Finance as to the number of officers, mates and the like, on the Canadian National Steamships who have been absorbed in the Department of Transport. I think the minister will find that there are not nearly as many as he thinks and not nearly as many as the Minister of Transport expected at the time.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We shall be glad to obtain that information. I think I can recall to my hon. friend that there are more ships of the Department of Transport coming into commission this year and it may be that the situation in this respect will improve considerably, perhaps sooner than he thinks.


Lionel Chevrier: While I am on this subject I want to make another reference to the Canadian National Steamships. By the decision which the government made it has reduced substantially, or reduced almost to nil, the deepsea fleet of Canada. I remember what was said by the Minister of Public Works when he was on this side of the house and what he said after the 1957 election out in his constituency. He made no bones about the fact that the position of the present government certainly would not be the same as that of the former government. I want to register here a complaint only about the fact that the deap-sea ships of Canada have gone down instead of up, and the merchant fleet of our country has been decreasing notwithstanding the fact that a minister of

Supply-Transport
the crown said that that would not be so, and notwithstanding the fact that the Minister of Public Works, when he sat on this side of the house, singled me out on more than one occasion and attacked me personally on more than one occasion because of the fact that the government of the day was not doing a thing to see to it that Canada, a country of our importance, was not subsidizing deep-sea ships.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
788.	Canadian National Railways deficit, 1958-Amount required to provide for payment to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the national company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the national company in payment of the system deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) arising in the calendar year 1958, subject to recovery therefrom of accountable advances made to the national company from the consolidated revenue fund, $51,591,424.
Mr. Brassard (Lapointe):: I would like to say a few words on this item. I would prefer, of course, that the Minister of Transport was in his place, but he must have a good reason to be absent. In the name of many public bodies in my riding and of the whole Sague-nay-lake St. John region I have tried to obtain from the Canadian National Railways management the operating figures for the last two or three years between Montreal and Chicoutimi and between Quebec and Chicoutimi. I have had correspondence myself with a couple of senior officials of the Canadian National Railways and finally, I was told-I have a letter on my desk dated March 19

that this information cannot be given out to the public because they are afraid it would help their competitors. The Canadian National Railways has no competitors in the region. The Canadian National Railways give us a good service but they have no competitors. The reason the people are asking for these figures is that they feel we should have urgent repairs made to the line from Montreal to Chicoutimi and from Quebec to Chicoutimi. These repairs are urgently needed.
I should like to speak a little longer on this item but I shall wait until the estimates of the Department of Transport are before the committee to make a clearer explanation to the minister.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, this is a pretty big item. I know that on a supplementary item the minister cannot be expected to go into all the details. However, it is a pretty substantial deficit and while it has been discussed in general I wonder whether the minister would be good enough to point out the highlights of the amount.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, glady, Mr. Chairman. I think the committee will be pleased to know that the operating picture presented by the Canadian National Railways for the year 1958 is slightly better than was expected a year earlier, and while the deficit is quite substantial, namely $51,591,424, it is, I am glad to say, nevertheless actually less than was anticipated some months ago.
The statement follows the usual form and I recall to the attention of members of the committee that the Canadian National Railways, with their senior officers, will be appearing, quite soon after the Easter recess, before the special committee annually appointed by the house to review the report and operations of the system and there will be opportunity then for lion, members to ask questions and obtain information in detail.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the house will be happy to learn that the financial position of the railway is better than was anticipated prior to the end of the year; but that leads me to a number of other questions on this item which is substantial and of great importance. The railway policy of the government as effected by its agency the Canadian National Railways and the Minister of Finance, being responsible for these moneys and being responsible for this vote whether it be in the statute that comes before the house each year, will be in even a better position to answer than the Minister of Transport himself. The question I ask is this: What additional lines are anticipated during the year 1959 through the instrumentality of the Canadian National Railways?
There have been a number of lines which have been of special interest to all members on this side of the house. I cannot speak for all of them. They have already mentioned their interest in them, but I do know that representations were made when we were in office and since the new administration has been in office, for the construction of a line from my hon. friend's area, the member for Lapointe from lake St. John and/or Murray bay, down along the north shore of the St. Lawrence to Seven Islands. I have mentioned the hon. member for Lapointe. There have been representations made to the government for the construction of a line in the Gaspe peninsula.
I am sure that when these representations are made the Minister of Finance is always on the delegation to consider them, and is in a position to tell us, perhaps more effectively than other ministers might, of the policy of the government with reference to these. I hope the minister will not simply rise and say that the policy will be announced in due course. I would not expect an answer like

that under these circumstances because I know that these lines were under active consideration when we were in office, and I hope that they are still under active consideration. I would appreciate it if, under this vote which is for $51 million, the minister would go beyond the ordinary answer of government policy being announced in due course, and make a statement which I am sure the whole house would appreciate.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I regret that I am not in a position to make a comment on policy in reference to particular lines that are proposed to be constructed. There will be an opportunity for that, as that is the sort of subject that is always discussed in the special committee later in the session.


William Moore Benidickson: Unfortunately I have not, in the last few years, been privileged to be a member of the committee to which the representatives of the Canadian National attend. The Minister of Finance will recall that on January 21 I raised the question of the revision of the Canadian National pension schedule. It seemed obvious that the matter I raised there, which did involve discussions between management and the unions, was not of such consequence that the Minister of Transport was informed about it. He replied on January 22. However, I would imagine that if a revision of the pension scheme of sufficient consequence to involve the expenditure of money were contemplated, it would come to the notice of the Minister of Finance.
He of course remembers the great interest that was always taken by the Prime Minister in this particular matter. He always asserted that the Canadian National management was prepared to revise the schedule, but that the then minister of finance was standing in the way. I wonder whether at the present time the Minister of Finance is close to any representations from the management or from the employees, advocating a revision, particularly in the minimum pension, as has been discussed on many occasions in the past by the present Prime Minister?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I take it my hon.
friend is referring to the pension scheme now in effect for the employees who are actually engaged in the service of the company, and not the question of the pensions of employees who were retired some years ago. I can say to my hon. friend, if that is the purport of his question, no representations concerning the present pension provisions have come to my attention affecting employees presently engaged in the operations of the company.


William Moore Benidickson: My understanding is that pension arrangements between the present 66968-9-134i
Supply-Transport
employees and management would be arranged between themselves. My understanding is that it is as the minister has indicated, the group of retired pensioners who always had the great interest of the Prime Minister when he was sitting on this side of the house. I am rather surprised when the Minister of Finance says he has received no representations concerning this group. I thought perhaps the Prime Minister would have consulted him about them because revision could not take place in connection with this group, as I recall it, even if the directorate of the Canadian National was prepared to accept the recommendations, without reference to the government who would have to deal with it by order in council.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think my hon. friend has not interpreted my answer correctly. I said that I was referring to pensions in effect now for employees engaged in the service of the company. I have had no representations in regard to that group. The other group is in an entirely different category, namely, those employees who have been retired some years ago under the previous pension provision.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
789.	Reimbursement of the Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $32,738.
Lionel Chevrier: May I ask whether this is being done in accordance with a statute? Is there a statute covering the replacement of these stores?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, this is done in accordance with regulations made under authority of section 60, subsection (2), of the Financial Administration Act.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
790.	Expenses of an inquiry into the coasting trade of Canada authorized under the Inquiries Act, including the payment, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, of honoraria or allowances as may be authorized by the treasury board to officers, clerks or employees permanently employed in the civil service for services rendered by them in connection with the inquiry-further amount required, $2,710.
Lionel Chevrier: Can the minister say whether the recommendations of the royal commission on coastal trading, which is covered here, are still under consideration, and what the government is going to do about them?


Donald Methuen Fleming: They are still under consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
2120	HOUSE OF
Supply-Vetenrans A fairs Telecommunications division-
791.	Radio aids to air and marine navigation- administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $305,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: This is a very large supplementary item, $305,000. Could the minister inform the house, generally, where these additional aids to air and marine navigation are installed?


Donald Methuen Fleming: While this is a large sum, Mr. Chairman, it is small when compared with the total item involved. The amount in this item is to provide payment for services supplied by Computing Devices of Canada Limited in the operation and maintenance by the company of four Decca navigation systems of the company at Quebec, Halifax, Clarenville, Newfoundland, and Corner Brook, as radio aids to marine navigation from October 1, 1958 to the end of this month.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
796. Reimbursement of the northwest communication system stores account for the value of stores losses incurred in the disposal of surplus equipment, $5,900.
Lionel Chevrier: May I ask here under what authority are these stores being destroyed? Is there a statute in this case?


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is done in pursuance of the Financial Administration Act. It is a matter of accounting within the consolidated revenue fund.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OP VETERANS AFFAIRS Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
808. Purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; and for protection of security under the Veterans Land Act-further amount required, $1,209,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Can the minister inform the house just what that money is going to be applied to?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is simply to provide an additional amount for the purposes for which the main estimate was voted. It is to provide for an additional number of veterans who are taking advantage of the provisions of the act.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am glad to hear that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of ways and means, Mr. Rea in the chair.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1959, the sum of $284,942,864 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Fleming (Eglinton) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill C-36, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1959.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
Mr. Speaker:: When shall the said bill be read a second time?


Some hon. Members:: Now.


Mr. Speaker:: By leave, now.


William Moore Benidickson: May I ask the Minister of Finance this question? If we had second reading of the bill at this stage, could he assure the house that it would be dealt with in the other place today?


Mr. Green:: May I explain that situation, Mr. Speaker? The other place is standing by. They will require an hour to consider the bill. In addition, the Chief Justice is standing by. If we could get this bill through within a few moments, I would suggest that the house adjourn until seven o'clock in order to give the other house an opportunity to consider the bill. Out of consideration for the members of the house I think it would be wise if we could follow this procedure.


Lionel Chevrier: We have been extremely cooperative so far.


Howard Charles Green: Oh, yes.


Lionel Chevrier: The hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate had a half-hour speech to make on this bill but in view of what the hon. member said, perhaps we could carry on with it.


Howard Charles Green: We are doubly grateful.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the Minister of Finance unanimous consent to move the second reading of the bill?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Rea in the chair.
On clause 1.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Will the minister assure the house that the language in this bill is that in the usual appropriation bill?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes. The bill follows the usual form of the appropriation acts. There are four clauses to the bill and then follow as a schedule all of the items which have been passed in the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2, 3 and 4 inclusive agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, if you will permit me to do so, I should like to thank all members of the house for their co-operation which has enabled us to complete the passing of this bill now.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: May I ask the Leader of the house what the business will be for Monday and Tuesday. I hope he can tell us what it will be for Wednesday as well because the house adjourns on Wednesday.


Howard Charles Green: Monday will be a private members' day. On Tuesday we intend to commence with the resolution concerning parliamentary secretaries, which is No. 7 on today's order paper; then the resolution which is No. 8 on today's order paper, that concerning freight rates; then second reading of the bill to amend the Canada Shipping Act, which is item No. 3 on today's order paper; then the resolution concerning the Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act, which is item No. 9 on today's order paper.


Lionel Chevrier: Will we go on with that business on Wednesday if it is uncompleted on Tuesday?


Howard Charles Green: With the resolutions carried there would, of course, be second readings of the bills. We would therefore go on with those on Wednesday.


Mr. McCleave:: I have a supplementary question. Can the house leader inform us what will be the business at seven o'clock?
Royal Assent


Howard Charles Green: I had suggested that the house should recess until seven o'clock tonight. It is necessary for us to have a quorum here for royal assent.


Mr. Speaker:: By unanimous consent shall this sitting be suspended, to convene again this day at the call of the chair?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: The bell will indicate the call of the chair.
At 6.10 p.m. the sitting was suspended.



SITTING RESUMED

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed at 7.12 p.m.

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, March 20. 1959.
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on Friday, the 20th March, at 7.15 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
Lionel Massey
Secretary to the Governor General
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act for the relief of Lise Nolet Lunghi.
An act for the relief of Margaret Stewart Cairns Bamber.
An act for the relief of Gertrude Czerny Thom-schitz, otherwise known as Gertrude Czerny Thomas.
An act for the relief of Miriam Hirsh Left.
An act for the relief of Phyllida Fairbairn Smith Draper.
An act for the relief of Janos Sztecsinics, otherwise known as Jean Sztecsinics.
An act for the relief of Margaret Craig Murdoch.
An act for the relief of Nita Stella Pollock Adams.
An act for the relief of Enis (Ines) Vit Desnoyers.

Royal Assent
An act for the relief of Helen Elizabeth MacDonald Downey.
An act for the relief of Silvia Frederike Diethilde Beate Angela Buchsel Fatter.
An act for the relief of Marie Cordelia Marie-Ange Pigeon Gaboriau dit Lapalme.
An act for the relief of Jeannine Genevieve Jagelavicus Kusleika.
An act for the relief of Viola Bleier Josephovits.
An act for the relief of James John Thomson Keay.
An act for the relief of Constandina Alimanis-teanu Butas.
An act for the relief of Viola Gertrude Elizabeth Boyd Theroux.
An act for the relief of Sydney Arthur Powell.
An act for the relief of Geraldine Joy Conway Cook.
An act for the relief of Joan Natalie Miller Martin.
An act for the relief of Jeanne d'Arc Gravel Senecal.
An act for the relief of Barbara Mary Scott Norman.
An act for the relief of Alice Schleicher Dorotich.
An act for the relief of Mary Jane Holmes Phillips.
An act for the relief of Barbara Lorrain Campbell Clarke.
An act for the relief of Helen Margaret Davidson Beckett.
An act for the relief of Ruth Dankner Liberman.
An act for the relief of Norma Mary Rose Purchard Clarkin.
An act for the relief of Eva Greenblatt Besner.
An act for the relief of Ruth Millstein Backman.
An act for the relief of Percy Kark Claxton.
An act for the relief of Marion Beulah Francis Meehan.
An act for the relief of Nina Olga Titow Dorion.
An act for the relief of Sylvia Florence Van Straten Weber.
An act for the relief of Joseph Fernand Roger Boucher.
An act for the relief of Jacqueline Shirley Mary Parnell Gardner.
An act for the relief of Esther Daisy Moynan O'Regan.
An act for the relief of Susan Pick Bereznik.
An act for the relief of Josephine Zauberman Schiller.
An act for the relief of Hanna Liselotte Gertrud Tiegs Kallus.
An act for the relief of Dorothy Louisa Stradwick Coffin.
An act for the relief of Marc Aurele Bourget.
An act for the relief of Marie Yolanda Marotta Henshaw.
An act for the relief of Bernice Sylvia Sinclair Somerville.
An act for the relief of Judith Ortenberg Baxt King.
An act for the relief of Yaroslavna Zonia Lazaro-wich Johnson.
An act for the relief of Gertrude Scharge Izen-berg.
An act for the relief of Joseph Moreau.
An act for the relief of Sydney Hislop, otherwise known as Sidney Hislop.
An act for the relief of Lenoir Grace Spencer Jennings.
An act for the relief of Olive Florence Andrews Bowness.
An act for the relief of Pearl Severs Schrieder.
An act for the relief of Vivien Joyce Taylor Ross.
An act for the relief of Jacqueline Jeanne Lamy Harper.

An act for the relief of Kathleen Iris Daunt Robinson.
An act for the relief of Jacques Flahault.
An act for the relief of Gladys Allen Marvin.
An act for the relief of Miriam Keppel Segal.
An act for the relief of Ronald Ernest Fyfe.
An act for the relief of Elsie Elizabeth Wand Bourret.
An act for the relief of Margaret Sonia Lawrence Canny.
An act for the relief of Andree Pauline Dorothy Pryce Clarke.
An act for the relief of Henry Frank Whiston.
An act for the relief of Rita Thibeaudeau Cardinal.
An act for the relief of Janine Sutto Dagenais.
An act for the relief of Evangeline Vaughan Fortin.
An act for the relief of Gloria Helen Gross Caplan.
An act for the relief of Thelma Georgine Ferguson Strathy.
An act for the relief of Percy Herbert Manuel.
An act for the relief of Irene Balk Goodson.
An act for the relief of Jean Grant Shacklock.
An act for the relief of James Kennedy Andrews.
An act for the relief of Lillian Haber Rudner.
An act for the relief of Esther Lillian Issenman Rosen.
An act for the relief of Ana Nili Indursky Seeman.
An act for the relief of Joan Howell McShane McNulty.
An act for the relief of Euphemia Caldwell Miller Armitt Esher, otherwise known as Effie Monas Esber.
An act for the relief of Goldie Yelin Freedman.
An act for the relief of Claire Segal Pottel.
An act for the relief of Klara Schillinger Aschner.
An act for the relief of Bernice Helena Peritz Loeb.
An act for the relief of Margaret Soil Rajeczky.
An act for the relief of Audrey Edna Watson Robert.
An act for the relief of Abbie Alice Mahon Reed.
An act for the relief of Alice Christine Leduc Patrick.
An act for the relief of Georgina Joan Saunders Smith.
An act for the relief of Bryan Mills Taylor.
An act for the relief of Dorothy Sarah Sheehan Burchmore.
An act for the relief of William Irvine Moore.
An act for the relief of Audrey Lynn Mac-Gillivray.
An act for the relief of Sarah Goldfarb Nash.
An act for the relief of Witolda Poplawska Wojciechowski.
An act for the relief of Martha Waugh McClure.
An act for the relief of Leslie Ronald Cant.
An act for the relief of Cecile Desjardins Morin.
An act to incorporate The Waterloo Mutual Insurance Company.
An Act respecting The Canadian Medical Association.
An	act	respecting	Gore District Mutual Fire
Insurance Company.
An act respecting The North American Accident Insurance Company.
An act respecting Baloise Fire Insurance Company of Canada.
An	act	respecting	The	Boiler Inspection and
Insurance Company of Canada.
An act to amend the National Housing Act, 1954.
An	act	to amend	the	St. Lawrence Seaway
Authority Act.
An	act	to amend	the	Fisheries Improvement
Loans Act.

An act to amend the National Defence Act.
An act to amend the Trans-Canada Highway Act. An act to amend the Public Servants Inventions Act.
An act to amend the Northwest Territories Act. An act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1960.
Royal Assent
An act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1959.


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It being forty minutes after seven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
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Questions

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The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Rouleau: 1.	How many employees have been dismissed from the national film board since June 10, 1957? 1957?
2.	Among those, how many are technicians, producers, heads of branches?
3.	How many employees have been hired since June 10, 1957?
Answer by:	Hon. Ellen L. Fairclough
(Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):
1.	Four.
2.	Two junior technicians.
3.	From June 10, 1957 to March 6, 1959, 112 persons have been regularly appointed in continuing positions; 39 have been engaged on a term basis and 42 on a contract basis.


ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER, NATIONAL MUSEUM
Mr. Argue: What are the duties and responsibilities of the administrative officer of the national museum of Canada?
Answer by: Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):
Under direction, to have financial control responsibility for the human history and natural history branches of the national museum of Canada, through preparation of annual estimates, commitment control, encumbrances, financial aspects of project control audit and supervision of accounts procedures; to act as adviser to the directors on administrative matters and business management; to have general responsibility for and direct supervision of staff engaged in the administration of the two branches; to prepare correspondence, directives and reports; to advise professional staff on administrative matters and to perform other related duties as required.

[The following items were passed in committee of supply] :


DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
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A-Department-
Special services-
750.	To provide for expenses of the special services branch including expenses for the promotion of a program for combatting seasonal unemployment, the organization and use of workers for farming and related industries and assistance to the provinces under agreements entered into with the provinces by the Minister of Labour with the approval of the governor in council, and the movement, reception, supervision and welfare of workers from outside Canada to work on farms and other essential employment where Canadian labour is not available to meet the need-further amount required, $100,000.
Vocational training co-ordination-
751.	To provide for carrying out the purposes of the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act and agreements made thereunder; to authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into agreements with any province on terms approved by the governor in council to provide financial assistance to vocational schools, and training under youth training projects and to provide for the expenditures thereunder and under vocational training agreements entered into in previous years-payments to the provinces-further amount required, $854,856.
B-Unemployment insurance commission-
752.	Administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act, including expenditures incurred in connection with other duties and responsibilites assumed and carried out as required by the governor in council on the recommendation of the Minister of Labour in accordance with section 4 of the act- further amount required, $2,227,000.

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The Senate-
753.	General administration - further amount required, $39,500.
House of Commons-
754.	Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons- Allowance in lieu of apartments-further amount required, $246.
755.	General administration-Estimates of the clerk-further amount required, $95,000.
756.	Special grant to the Canadian North Atlantic Treaty Organization parliamentary association for Canada's share of the cost of the Atlantic congress to be held in 1959 and the expenses of Canadian parliamentary delegates attending the congress, $20,000.

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A-Department-
Surveys and mapping branch-
757. Topographical	surveys-Construction	or
acquisition of equipment-further amount required, $20,500.
758.	Canadian hydrographic service-Administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $477,492.
Geographical branch-
759.	Geographical branch-Administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $20,699.
General-
760.	Purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on
66968-9-135
Supply-Items Passed
air surveys, including purchases of equipment- further amount required, $2,300,000.

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Pensions and other benefits-
761.	To authorize in respect of members of the Royal Canadian Air Force on leave without pay and serving as instructors with civilian training organizations operating under the British commonwealth air training plan who were killed, payment to their dependents of amounts equal to the amounts such dependents would have received under the Pension Act, as amended, had such service as instructors been military service in the armed forces of Canada, less the value of any benefits received by such dependents under insurance contracts which were effected on the lives of such members of the Royal Canadian Air Force by or at the expense of the civilian organizations- further amount required, $404.

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A-Department-
National health branch-
762.	Administration of the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act-further amount required, $47,000.
Welfare branch-
763.	Welfare branch	administration-further
amount required, $18,500.
764.	Reduction in the amount owing by the old age security fund pursuant to section 11 of the Old Age Security Act in an amount equal to the amount of outstanding temporary loans made by the Minister of Finance to the fund before the 1st day of April, 1959, estimated at $184,000,000.

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National parks branch-
National parks and historic sites services-
765.	Administration, operation and maintenance- urther amount required, $284,279.
Northern administration and lands branch-
Yukon Territory-
766.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $278,452.
Forestry branch-
Forestry operations division-
767.	Contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory, reforestation and forest fire protection in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces-further amount required, $190,000.

[Stage Direction]
Special-
768.	Expenses pertaining to the visit to Canada in 1959 of Her Majesty The Queen and His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, including authority, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act or any other act but subject to the approval of treasury board, to appoint and to pay persons to be engaged temporarily in connection therewith, $33,000.

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769.	Distribution of official documents-further amount required, $13,000.
770.	Printing and binding official publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public-further amount required, $64,000.
771.	Printing of Canada Gazette-further amount required, $46,042.
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Supply-Items Passed
772.	Reimbursement of the queen's printer's advance account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $14,573.

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Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
773.	Expenses incurred by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in constructing and supervising construction of married quarters, rental housing, schools and related services on behalf of the Department of National Defence-further amount required, $270,000.

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Land and air services-
774.	Operation and maintenance of divisions- further amount required, $494,000.

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775. Companies	division-further amount required. $4,400.
Patent and copyright office-
776.	Patent division-further amount required, $198,000.

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General Administration-
777.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $76,600.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics-
778.	Statistics-further amount required. $62,935.

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A-Department-
Marines Services-
779.	Steamship inspection service, including the carrying out of the provisions of the conventions for the safety of life at sea and load lines, and contributions as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $1.
780.	Ship channel service-St. Lawrence and Saguenay Rivers-Administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $259,574.
Railway and steamship services-
Payments to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the comany to the Minister of Finance, to be applied by the company in payment of the deficits, certified by the auditors of the company, arising in the operations in the calendar year 1958-further amounts required-
781.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals. $24,689.
782.	Newfoundland ferry and terminals, $2,133,651.
Railway and steamship services-
Strait of Canso-
783.	Transportation improvements and facilities -further amount required, $54,500.
784. Construction or acquisition of auto-ferry vessels and equipment as listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects- further amount required, $1.
Newfoundland coastal services-
785. Construction or acquisition of passenger-cargo vessels and equipment-further amount required including authority for expenditures on harbour facilities, $1.
786.	Yarmouth, Nova Scotia-Bar Harbour, Maine, U.S.A., Ferry service-deficit 1958-further amount required, $38,346.
787.	Payment to Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited (hereinafter called the company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the company to the Minister of Finance, in the amount of the deficit, certified by the auditors of the company, in the operations of the company in the calendar year 1958-further amount required, $361,954.
788.	Canadian National Railways deficit, 1958 -Amount required to provide for payment to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the National company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made by the national company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the national company in payment of the system deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) arising in the calendar year 1958, subject to recovery therefrom of accountable advances made to the national company from the consolidated revenues fund, $51,591,424.
General-
789.	Reimbursement of the Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $32,738.
790.	Expenses of an inquiry into the coasting trade of Canada authorized under the Inquiries Act, including the payment, notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, of honoraria or allowances as may be authorized by the treasury board to officers, clerks or employees permanently employed in the civil service for services rendered by them in connection with the inquiry-further amount required, $2,710.
Air Services-
Telecommunications division-
Radio aids to air and marine navigation-
791.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $305,000.
Meteorological division-
792.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $442,000.
Civil aviation division-
793.	Airways and airports-Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment- further amount required, including authority to contribute during the current and subsequent fiscal years amounts not exceeding in the aggregate $196,000, to the corporation of the township of Richmond, British Columbia, towards construction of a water supply system, for purposes in connection with Vancouver international airport, $1.00.
794.	Contributions toward airport development and other airport projects on cost-sharing basis, in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $8,578.
795.	Contributions, as detailed in the estimates, to other governments or international agencies for the operation and maintenance of airports, air navigation and airways facilities, including authority to pay the amounts specified in the currencies of the countries indicated, notwithstanding that the payments may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars-further amount required, estimated as of March 1959, $3,800.
General-
796.	Reimbursement of the northwest communication system stores account for the value of stores losses incurred in the disposal of surplus equipment, $5,900.

Special-
797.	Payment to B.C. Air Lines Limited in reimbursement of loss sustained in providing essential winter services to West Coast communities from January 1, 1958, to March 31, 1958, $4,382.
B-General-
Air transport board-
798.	Salaries and other expenses, including the Canadian delegation to the international civil aviation organization-further amount required, $8,000. Canadian maritime commission-
799.	Steamship subventions for coastal services, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $218,272.

[Stage Direction]
800.	Prosthetic services-Supply, manufacture and administration-further amount required, $35,000.
War veterans allowances and other benefits-
801.	Assistance fund (War Veterans Allowances) -further amount required, $150,000.
802.	Treatment and other allowances-further amount required, $160,000.
Loans, investments and advances-
External affairs-
803.	Additional advance to the working capital fund of the United Nations organization in the amount of $33,909 U.S., notwithstanding that payment may exceed or fall short of equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of March, 1959, which is, $32,892.
Supply-Items Passed
804.	Advance to the working capital fund of the intergovernmental maritime consultative organization in the amount of $1,300 U.S., notwithstanding that payment may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of March, 1959, which is, $1,261.
805.	To authorize, for the purpose of supplementing economic assistance given under the Colombo plan, special loans to Colombo plan countries to finance the purchase of wheat and flour from Canada, subject to such terms and conditions and at such rates of interest as the governor in council prescribes-further amount required, including authority, notwithstanding section 35 of the Financial Administration Act for the making of payments pursuant to this vote up to June 30, 1959, $1.
806.	To increase to $1,100,000 the amount that may be charged at any time to the special account, mentioned in vote 630 of the Appropriation Act No. 2, 1954, that was established to provide for working capital advances to posts and employees on posting abroad, $100,000.
Northern affairs and national resources-
807.	Loans to the government of the Northwest territories, during the current and subsequent fiscal years, in accordance with terms and conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $800,000.

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Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act-
808.	Purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; and for protection of security under the Veterans' Land Act-further amount required, $1,209,000.
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V -	[DOT]	- .	* .
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Monday. March 23. 1959