1959-03-23

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, the house will recall that the government asked Lieutenant General Howard Graham to review the state of the civil defence program throughout Canada. General Graham's confidential report made some weeks ago has been reviewed, and the arrangements for responsibility for civil defence discussed in the light of it and of further studies given to the subject by both military and civilian advisers.
We have had to consider these civil defence arrangements as part of the whole plan to be prepared for nuclear war, both on the military side and in various fields where it is now necessary to be ready on the civilian side as well, taking into account the best advice we can get on the nature of the situation which would face us in the event of war. As a result of this review the government proposes to transfer certain of the responsibilities for civil defence functions in so far as the dominion is concerned, and to offer to assume directly certain responsibilities hitherto assumed by the provinces and the municipalities.
The principal change proposed is that the army should undertake primary and direct responsibility for a number of the technical civil defence functions heretofore carried on by civil defence organizations at provincial and municipal levels. These will include warning of attack, the location and monitoring of explosions and radioactive fall-out, the assessment of damaged areas, the decontamination and clearing of such areas, and the rescue of the injured in such areas.
These are difficult and frequently dangerous tasks, requiring trained and disciplined forces and much technical equipment. In the intense early phase of a nuclear war they are likely to be more important and urgent than other tasks on which the army in Canada would be engaged. Consequently we think they are suitable functions for the army to assume, with some aid in particular tasks from the other services. The army will need for this purpose not only its own
reserve force but also the assistance of various local auxiliaries, which it will be expected to arrange with provincial and local authorities and others able to help.
The major humanitarian tasks of providing medical and hospital services for the injured and sick, public health measures and emergency billeting and other accommodation for those who must leave their homes, and emergency feeding and other welfare services, should remain, we believe, the direct responsibility of provincial authorities in war as they are in peace, but with increased assistance both financial and technical from the dominion. This assistance would remain the responsibility of the Department of National Health and Welfare. The proper organization, in peacetime, of such emergency arrangements to be ready immediately on the outbreak of war in all localities where they are apt to be needed is a very formidable task, and should be undertaken with determination and vigour. I believe the provinces and local groups are best able to do it. They have the experience, the qualified staff and the local knowledge.
We shall be quite prepared to agree that the provincial and local facilities, both of equipment and personnel, whose costs we may share for civil defence purposes should also be made available to meet the humanitarian requirements of peacetime disasters as well.
Certain other emergency tasks falling within the civil defence field are also clearly best discharged by provincial or local authorities, notably the control of traffic and the preservation of law and order. We shall be prepared to offer increased support for special expenditures incurred in making preparation for such services in war, subject to parliamentary approval. In the two examples cited the Royal Canadian Mounted Police will administer such assistance, and provide as well whatever technical and general advice it can.
Provincial and local costs of approved civil defence projects will henceforth receive assistance to the extent of 75 per cent instead of 50 per cent as heretofore; and this division will apply to projects in the fields of interest of national health and welfare, of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and to other provincial and local projects.
The emergency measures organization, attached to the privy council office, to which
2130	HOUSE OF
Civil Defence Responsibilities reference was made on a number of occasions by myself, will co-ordinate the work of other agencies in the field of civil defence measures and planning as it already does in respect of other civilian measures to prepare for war. Federal responsibilities not allocated to other departments or services will be assumed by this organization, although in general the intention is that this will remain a small, central unit and any substantial operating responsibilities will be assigned to others. Liaison with provincial governments on particular functions will be the responsibility of those dealing with such functions, but the emergency measures organization will be charged with general responsibility for contact with the provincial authorities.
I shall be writing to provincial premiers to set forth the federal proposals in more detail, and I shall then table a copy of these letters. It is the intention to arrange discussions with provincial ministers on the general subject of civil defence before we proceed to implement the foregoing proposals. I should like to take this opportunity to emphasize that this government believes that civil measures to prepare for the possibility of nuclear war must be taken as seriously as are military measures. Civil defence can serve a deterrent purpose by demonstrating to a potential aggressor that Canada is determined to survive even a nuclear war and carry on as an organized society and united nation in the face of the utmost perils and hardships.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, the statement the Prime Minister has given the house has been asked for on a number of occasions during this session of parliament by various members sitting in the opposition. We have not had a statement on civil defence since the Minister of National Health and Welfare made a short statement when he introduced his main estimates in the last session of parliament. As a result a long interval has elapsed since this government seized the opportunity to make a statement on this very important and difficult matter. It is no wonder that municipalities, notably the metropolitan area of Toronto, the city of Ottawa and other communities, have complained about the lack of a statement of policy by the government of Canada.
While we welcome the statement the Prime Minister has just given the house, I am sure the municipalities and the provincial governments will find the statement does not reveal the kind of detail for which they have been asking from the Minister of National Health and Welfare, who up to today has had the very difficult responsibility of administrating


civil defence in Canada of course in cooperation with the provinces and the municipalities.
The situation the Prime Minister has outlined apparently does not take into account developments, notably in the United States, which were announced yesterday at Battle Creek in the matter of co-ordinating of civil defence in the United States. Emphasis is given in that country, in the face of the growing exigencies of the moment, to private and public shelters. We can only hope that with the assignment of some of the functions to the office of the privy council and to the armed forces, this will mean, as a result of the transfer of some functions to the Minister of National Defence, that we might expect a clarification from the government with regard to the emphasis now given to shelters in the United States.
By the announcement now made the army is to be given certain functions which it is said have heretofore not been assigned to the armed forces. I am sure the Prime Minister would not want to convey the impression that the armed forces have not, under the Minister of National Health and Welfare and pursuant to the authority of the militia act, carried out functions in the matter of civil defence. In this connection we were guided in this country during the last few years by the experience in Britain where, under their arrangements, mobile army units were provided with authority to assist the civil defence authorities in the prosecution of their assignments. We are now told that such matters as warning of attack, matters having to do with radioactive fall-out, the right of re-entry into damaged areas, are to be pursued by the armed forces.
Nothing is said, of course, in the statement made by the Prime Minister of the amendment made yesterday by Senator Anderson in the United States with regard to the error of the AEC in the matter of strontium 90 and the extent to which it lingers in the air, an amendment which could have the most serious consequences for mankind if that error were to take on additional forms. It is noteworthy, however, that in the statement made yesterday by Senator Anderson, commenting with regard to the conclusions of the AEC, it was not thought that as a result of the quicker dispatch to the ground of strontium 90 there would be any appreciable increase in the danger to human health. I presume nevertheless that the statement made a few weeks ago in the house by the Minister of National Health and Welfare still stands.
Nothing has been said by the Prime Minister that would indicate that there has been

a real change, apart from the exceptions I have already noted, in the functions of the armed forces in the matter of civil defence except that they are to be carried out by virtue of receiving their authority presumably from the Minister of National Defence himself although the Prime Minister, so far as I can recall from the statement he read, did not say so specifically.
I note that the hospital and welfare services are to continue under the Minister of National Health and Welfare. This is as it should be and as I expected it would be, for obviously that department is best equipped to deal in a co-operative way with the provinces and the municipalities in the matter of medical and welfare care as part of the civil defence program.
The Prime Minister gives notice of the government's intention to provide, within certain categories of effort, increased financial assistance to the provinces, but I was not clear whether this also applied directly to the municipalities or whether this was an arrangement to be worked out by the provincial governments themselves. Such matters as traffic control and others that normally might be expected to reside with the provinces are to continue as before. In this connection the Prime Minister indicated that further use would be made of the police. One wonders whether or not this really represents an innovation, because under existing civil defence arrangements-and I think the Minister of National Health and Welfare will agree with me-the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as indeed the armed forces of our country and certainly the militia under the militia act, are available by law and practice to the provincial governments in the discharge of civil defence functions.
The percentage of financial assistance to the provinces for certain phases of effort is now to be increased from 50 to 75 per cent. One wonders, however, whether that applies to the whole co-ordinated program of the federal government and the provinces. Under the arrangement which prevailed before these transfers of duties were announced, certain financial burdens were assumed by the three levels of government. With respect to the great proportion of civil defence obligations the federal government assumed 100 per cent. We presume that in the matter of certain supplies the 100 per cent arrangement will continue as heretofore.
Certain functions are now to be turned over to the office of the privy council. As the Minister of National Health and Welfare will attest, this matter was under consideration prior to June of 1957, and the step now taken is in principle one which I am sure
Civil Defence Responsibilities will commend itself to the house. The Prime Minister has indicated his view as head of the government of Canada that civil defence is a matter to be taken seriously.
All hon. members will acknowledge, of course, the very difficult assignment that is now reposed in the three divisions of the federal government, the Department of National Health and Welfare, the Department of National Defence, and the office of the privy council, whose duties and the results of whose duties likewise, I presume, will be reported to this house by the Prime Minister. If that is not the case we have yet to be told which minister will be responsible for reporting to the house and exercising ministerial jurisdiction over the co-ordinating role of the office of the privy council.
Nothing is said, of course, in the statement made by the Prime Minister as to the views of the government regarding the matter of evacuation. It will be remembered that when this matter was last discussed the present Minister of National Defence, who acted as spokesman for the then opposition in the matter of civil defence, basically, I think, agreed with the general position taken by the civil defence authorities as of two years ago with regard to evacuation. Great events have taken place since that time. The intercontinental ballistic missile is now a fact. The Soviet union has successfully launched projects involving the use of intercontinental ballistic missiles. What effect does this new scientific advance in war mean in terms of the policy of the government with regard to evacuation? Does evacuation continue, in the opinion of the government, to be its policy under, of course, now admittedly certain restricted circumstances?
Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the house will welcome the statement in so far as it delineates the transfer of functions that has now taken place from the ministry of health and welfare to the two other departments of the government. But I am sure it would be both the Prime Minister's view and that of every hon. member in this house that this announcement today will not clearly establish the future character of civil defence in Canada. We will want to know what is to be the position of the civil defence council made up of the Minister of National Health and Welfare and his opposite numbers in the ten provincial governments. Is that council to continue? Is it going to have the same power which it had previously, or is it going to be subjected to the limitations involved in the transfer of functions from one minister to the two other departments? How many civil defence workers are there now in Canada? There were, as of June, 1957 some 250,000. Does that number still prevail? These and

Appointment of R.C.M.P. Commissioner other questions remain to be answered; nevertheless, notwithstanding this fact, we welcome this belated announcement of this phase of government policy.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: After listening to the lengthy, comprehensive but rather tortuous statement of the hon. member for Essex East I am not too certain at this time whether I should be replying to the statement by the Prime Minister or to the lengthy statement of the hon. Member for Essex East.
The question of civil defence is a rather controversial one in Canada today because there are a great many well informed people who have asked whether or not civil defence is in fact possible with the tremendous advance in military weapons. We are pleased that the government has had a further study made of this question, and is reporting its action to the house based on that study.
I suggest to the Prime Minister and the government that a further study of this allimportant question should be made by the House of Commons itself, and I would think that a small committee of this house might well be established at this session to continue the study that has already been made in other quarters of this vital question. I have no doubt that the provincial governments and the municipalities, in spite of some questions by some municipalities in the past, will give to the government and its various departments full co-operation in this very important field. The provinces and the municipalities will welcome the additional financial assistance that is being provided.
I think any future study that is made of this important question should include the effects of strontium 90, as well as the effects of fall-out and radiation. I feel that from such a study might come recommendations important to the survival of the human race. [Later:i
On the orders of the day:


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister, based on his statement on civil defence. In view of the fact that there are some unorganized communities of 1,000 or more in population which have excellent fire brigades and water protection, would they be included in the term "local" in reference to assistance to local communities?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the suggestion seems an appropriate one, and it would be a matter for consideration by the minister.
[Mr. Martin (Essex East) .1



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to announce that Deputy Commissioner Charles Edward Rivett-Carnac has today been appointed commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Such an appointment would perhaps not normally be announced in the house, but in view of the particular circumstances and the general interest in the matter I thought it would be appropriate on this occasion to make the announcement here. This appointment and the retirement of Commissioner Nicholson will both have effect on April 1.
Commissioner Rivett-Carnac has had a most distinguished career with the R.C.M. Police and brings to his position the benefit of full experience in all the problems and requirements of the field divisions, as well as a thorough knowledge of the administrative and command problems at headquarters.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, it is an unfortunate and regrettable situation that required this appointment. The decision taken by the government last week, however, brought about that situation and this vacancy. That being the case, Mr. Speaker, I can think of no one more suitable than Deputy Commissioner Rivett-Carnac to fill the vacancy created by the resignation of a commissioner who has served Canada so well, a man of great courage and integrity. Mr. Speaker, the reported offences against law and order in Newfoundland over the week end emphasize the desirability of filling this vacancy quickly, and I am glad this has been done.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, we welcome the announcement by the Minister of Justice, and we are quite certain from the minister's own knowledge and his usual good judgment that he has made an appropriate replacement as commissioner of the R.C.M. police.



LIVESTOCK


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minisler of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, the Agricultural Stabilization Act provides for the announcement of support prices on an annual basis. The existing support price for hogs expires at the end of this month. Therefore I am now announcing that the existing price of $25 per 100 pounds, basis Toronto and Montreal, warm dressed weight, for A grade carcasses, with appropriate prices for other markets, will continue in effect until September 30. For the period

October 1, 1959 to March 31, 1960, the support price will be at the mandatory level, which is 80 per cent of the ten-year average or $23.65 per 100 pounds, basis Toronto and Montreal.
As is well known, hog marketings in 1958, and more particularly during the last quarter of 1958 and in 1959 to date, have been running at unusually high levels. This has resulted in hog prices over the past six months remaining at or close to the support level. It has also resulted in a considerable accumulation of pork products by the stabilization board. There is good reason to believe that one of the important factors behind the increased production of hogs is the development of so-called vertical integration, financed or sponsored in one way or another by large commercial organizations. The assured price under the existing stabilization program appears to have been an important factor in the greatly accelerated production under this type of operation.
I have therefore directed the stabilization board and officers of the department actively to explore the method of providing price support for hogs by means of a payment to producers, commonly described as a deficiency payment, rather than by an undertaking to purchase the product as at the present time. Under this alternative method the price of hogs would not be supported in the market, but producers would be paid the difference between the actual average price received and the prescribed support price. This method would make it possible to withhold payments from commercial organizations operating under the so-called vertical integration plan, and to limit payments to any individual to a specific number of hogs delivered.
I am sure that all who have knowledge of hog production and marketing procedures will agree that before radical changes are made an administratively sound plan must be developed. Consequently I cannot at this moment state when the proposed change can be put into effect. However, I wish to assure the house that every effort will be made to complete the necessary studies and put the alternative plan into effect at the earliest possible date.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, the house will have listened with great interest, I think, to the statement of the minister, and there will be an opportunity very shortly when we resume consideration of his estimates to debate that statement. I gathered from the statement that the government have felt that the policy previously adopted in this matter was unrealistic in the figure the minister has given for hog support prices, and that they have
Announcement of Hog Support Prices felt that this figure represents an incentive payment. They have now taken steps, in their wisdom, to correct that situation by introducing a new principle in respect of this product, that of deficiency payments. In that respect, Mr. Speaker, we on this side get some satisfaction out of the fact that the government has adopted the policy put forward in our national convention resolution, where we advocated deficiency payments when required.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, the announcement by the Minister of Agriculture with regard to hog prices is most disappointing.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Hazen Robert Argue: Hon. members on the government side of the house can snicker and giggle if they wish, but the hog producers of this country will not look kindly on an announcement which states that the floor price beginning October 1 will drop from $25 to $23.65 a hundredweight. This is not the kind of policy we had expected from the government in view of its oft repeated promises given to agricultural producers of their fair share of the national income and of support prices based on parity.
I had thought previously, Mr. Speaker, that when the government undertook to announce support prices at the height of the production season, those support prices would be announced at an earlier date to allow farmers to gauge their production for the period covered by the support prices. The minister, who is a hog raiser himself, knows that a great many plans are already under way for the production of hogs this year, and that the quantity of hogs which will be going on to Canadian markets in the current year has now, for all practical purposes, been decided. This therefore is an announcement of a reduction at a time when the farmer has no opportunity to adjust his production to this lower price.
This is a demonstration we believe, Mr. Speaker, once again of the drastic results that will flow from the government having failed to give fair prices to the western grain producers. We all realize that in desperation western grain producers have transferred a very large part of what was normally strictly grain production to the production of livestock. The increased marketing of hogs from the prairie region is perhaps one of the reasons why the minister has announced this reduction in hog prices. Without an over-all, comprehensive policy for agriculture I am afraid this may be but a forerunner of additional and drastic announcements by the minister which will mean a further deterioration in the position of agriculture.

Business of the House BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE



ORDER OF BUSINESS AS SET OUT ON ORDER PAPER

Mr. Speaker:: Notices of motions for production of papers. No. 5; Mr. Fisher.


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Is that agreeable to the hon. member for Port Arthur?


Mr. Fisher:: I should like an explanation as to why this should stand.


Paul Joseph James Martin: After motions, the next item as I see it on my order paper is introduction of bills; then, first reading of Senate public bills, and then government notices of motions.


Mr. Speaker:: We must have different
order papers.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mine is dated Monday, March 23.


Mr. Speaker:: The next order of business after motions is: private members' day, fifth allotted Monday-notices of motions for the production of papers.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I have an order paper for Monday, March 23. It says:
Daily routine of business:-Presenting reports by standing and special committees; motions; introduction of bills; first reading of Senate public bills; government notices of motions.


Mr. Speaker:: There are no bills to be introduced today. That is why there is no item set down.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Look at standing order No. 15.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Paul Joseph James Martin: Under the provisions of standing order No. 26, Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to move the adjournment of the house to discuss a matter of urgent national importance, namely the serious unemployment situation as revealed today in a joint release of the Department of Labour and the dominion bureau of statistics which has not shown any decrease in unemployment as forecast by the government. This is a matter which bears with increasing severity on certain regions of Canada.


Mr. Speaker:: I have felt that the question of unemployment, which is a continuing one, can scarcely be brought forward under rule 26. The circumstance alleged by the hon. member for Essex East, namely a joint release by the Department of Labour and the dominion bureau of statistics, scarcely alters the situation, in my opinion, to a point where the

house should be asked to interrupt its ordinary business. That is my present disposition, but before disposing of the matter I do not want to overlook any sound argument tending to show that this question should be debated today and that we should interrupt our normal business for this purpose.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Since Your Honour has asked for sound arguments, may I have the honour of being the first to indicate the sound arguments which we on this side of the house have in mind to justify, in Your Honour's judgment, the presentation of this motion at this particular time.
The government through the Minister of Labour on August 16 last in a debate in this house indicated that the unemployment situation in Canada was improving, and that we could expect to see a gradual amelioration of the problem from that time onward. The fact is that this morning the Department of Labour and the dominion bureau of statistics issued a monthly report which reveals that the number of persons without jobs and seeking work was estimated to be 537,000 in February, a figure virtually unchanged from January. This situation means that Canada has a higher percentage of unemployed workers than any other country in the western world, and it would seem to us-


Mr. Green:: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is carrying on with the debate. He is not speaking to the point of order.


Mr. Speaker:: I think the point is well taken that the hon. member is really proceeding as though the motion had been allowed. The point is this. What difference is there between this Monday and last Monday, when a motion could have been moved by way of want of confidence to deal with this unemployment situation? As a matter of fact I recall now that it could not have been moved because the subject has already been debated this session. I am not sure how the hon. member could overcome these obstacles, both that we have had debates so directly pointed toward the unemployment situation that I doubt whether a new want of confidence motion could be permitted on this subject, and second, as the hon. member has just remarked, that there is no change in the figures; we are dealing with a continuing situation.
I feel the hon. gentleman should not attempt to debate the subject matter, but if he has any sound argument in support of debating this question at this particular time, indicating why it has become a matter which would justify the interruption of our ordinary business, I feel he should address himself to this point.


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: With great
respect, I think the argument of urgency must lie in the facts as they seem to present themselves to us, but I do not intend to labour that point. However, we now have in our possession, as of a few hours ago, a further report from the Department of Labour and the dominion bureau of statistics which indicates that despite government assurances with regard to unemployment in this country the situation is not improving and in the result, when we add up the national figure on the basis of the categories of unemployed included in the dominion bureau of statistics figures, a very serious situation confronts the country. The urgency lies in the fact that the problem continues, as the monthly bulletin indicates, to be as severe as it was in the preceding month. That situation confronting us at this moment when we are about to recess for a period of ten days warrants, I submit with great respect and confidence, the house giving consideration at this time to ways and means by which the government could deal with this problem.
This matter has not been pursued by way of specific motion during this session. There was an amendment on going into supply providing that the government should give consideration to calling a dominion-provincial conference so that this question and fiscal matters could be discussed, but both fiscal and unemployment questions were referred to in that amendment as the kind of question which would justify the holding of such a conference, and the kind of question that might be discussed at that conference.
I submit there is no problem of greater emergency in our country at this time than the fact that we have almost half a million people out of work. This problem persists in spite of government policy and in spite of government assurances of amelioration. I would urge upon Your Honour the consideration that if ever there was a motion that came within the terms of standing order 26 it is this particular motion, which justifies our asking the government to give an opportunity at this time of examining its policies and finding why there is no improvement in a situation that affects so many thousands of our people in all parts of Canada. The new fact has emerged that as a result of statistics introduced in another parliament in the commonwealth we have learned that Canada has a higher measure of unemployment than any other-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My hon. friend is simply going ahead to make his speech. I point out that the
Labour Conditions-Unemployment rules are perfectly clear. Standing order 26, subsection 6, paragraph (c) provides:
26. 6(c) the motion must not revive discussion on a matter which has been discussed in the same session.
The original amendment moved by the Leader of the Opposition during the course of the debate on the speech from the throne on January 19, as reported at page 52 of Hansard, was in the following words:
We respectfully affirm that Your Excellency's advisers, by reason of contradictory and confused policies; as well as lamentable indecision in dealing with grave national problems such, for example, as those concerned with mounting unemployment, no longer merit the confidence of this house.
In addition there was a subamendment moved by the hon. member for Kootenay West, to a motion to go into supply, as reported at page 871 of Hansard of February 10, in the following words:
That the amendment be amended by changing the period at the end thereof to a comma, and by adding thereafter the following words:
"and should present for consideration of such conference federal proposals:
(a)	to assume complete responsibility for the welfare of the employable unemployed.
(b)	to ensure employment opportunities to all Canadians willing and able to work-
The motion made today by the hon. member for Essex East contains these words:
which has not shown any significant decrease.
My hon. friend has reference to the general unemployment situation. If the hon. gentleman can move to adjourn the house on the basis of figures which happen to have been published today, then he could move to adjourn the house every day that figures are brought down; for instance, two weeks from now or four weeks from now and so on right through the session. I submit that this rule is intended to prevent this type of development.


Mr. Speaker:: The Minister of Public Works has raised a point of order which I have heard. I believe I have heard all I need to hear from that hon. gentleman or any hon. member of the house for that matter, because it is quite clear to me that this is not a motion that can be sustained.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to address myself to the question of whether or not this is a motion of urgency and whether or not there exists a situation which is different from that which might obtain had action been taken by the government.
On that question only I should like to draw to your attention the fact that this is a matter of urgency because the house now has information it did not have before. It is only within the last few hours that it has been

Inquiries of the Ministry possible to obtain information concerning what the situation is, and the situation is undoubtedly serious. I would also point out that this week the house is going to adjourn until April 6, at which time we will be approaching the period when seasonal benefits under the unemployment insurance provision will be running out. Because of the continuing unemployment problem many will be unable to obtain unemployment insurance benefits. In view of this fact I submit it is only a logical conclusion to everyone that this is a matter of urgency that should be discussed.


Mr. Speaker:: As hon. members appreciate, it is not my function to say whether or not this is an urgent, important or critical matter. I do not for one moment take the position that it is not, but I do find that we have discussed this very problem throughout the session. In addition to the discussions which have been mentioned by the Minister of Public Works the hon. member who moved this motion moved an amendment on February 9 calling for a federal-provincial conference to discuss unemployment and fiscal relations.
In the absence of some marked change that has been sudden and which presents another problem from that which we have considered, it appears to me I could not allow the ordinary procedure of this house to be interrupted, which is what the hon. member is asking to do.



UNEMPLOYMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Has he any up to date figures on the unemployment situation as it exists in Canada?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased to inform the house that the latest joint release of the dominion bureau of statistics and the Department of Labour shows a general improvement in the labour situation across Canada. The February figure for persons without jobs and seeking work shows a drop of 1,000 from January. Since it comes at this time of the year, Mr. Speaker, it is encouraging evidence of a trend which has been developing for some weeks. The February figure of 537,000 job seekers represents 26,000 fewer looking for work than at this time last year. At the same time, 152,000 more persons are working. In view of the dire predictions that have been made in some quarters may I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this government can take immense pride-


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Michael Starr: I have some very important figures-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before he finishes,
perhaps the minister would let me advise him that I have not permitted a debate on this subject. I hope he will keep within the ruling.


Michael Starr: I do not think these figures are debatable, sir. I think all of us in the house can take great pride in the fact that 152,000 more persons are working this year than at this time last year.
In percentages of those seeking work, the figure is 8.8 per cent of the labour force as at mid-February. In January it was 8.9 per cent. Last February the seeking-work figure was 9.4 per cent of the labour force. It is on its way down. By comparing the picture in February we find that it is much more encouraging than it was even in the month of January. In January, unemployment was still up 98,000 over December and 11,000 over a year earlier. Employment was 142,000 lower than in December. This, I am very happy to say, Mr. Speaker, has been checked and reversed. Unemployment is down and employment is up very substantially.
When we turn to last year we find that for February, unemployment had jumped up 232,000 over the previous year. We find that it had jumped by 35,000 over the previous month, and it was at this time, Mr. Speaker, that the predictions that I referred to were made. However, the situation is now that we had 9,000 more people at work in February than in January and 152,000 more than in February last year, with a labour force 126,000 greater.
The national unemployment registrations were, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: I find that if not a specific debate at least a general debate is arising. I leave it to hon. members whether the minister should continue his answer at this length, and I would ask him to terminate it-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I think it would be the wish of the house to allow the minister to complete his statement on the understanding, of course, that we on this side will have the same right and opportunity that we hope now arises, in view of the fact that the minister has already made a fairly comprehensive statement.


Mr. Speaker:: The minister has not asked for leave to revert to motions to make such a statement. If he does, I will ask the house whether it wishes to give him the opportunity.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask the
minister a few questions? Would the minister like to revert to motions to make his statement?


Mr. Speaker:: Is the hon. member rising to ask a supplementary question?


Murdo William Martin: Does the minister derive much encouragement, as he said he did, from the fact that 8.8 per cent of the labour force is without jobs and seeking work? Does he think that this situation having regard to the employed force in Canada, represents a result which warrants that encouragement, particularly when we compare the 8.8 per cent with the corresponding figure of 2.5 per cent in Great Britain? Does he think this indicates that their 550,000 unemployed in a country of 48 million is comparable with our 537,000 in a country of 17 million people?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I get reports from the dominion bureau of statistics, I get reports from the national employment service offices, and I also get reports through the press as to the situation in Great Britain. Unfortunately I am in somewhat of a dilemma at times because I am unable to get the Martin B.S. figures-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Michael Starr: I was referring to the "Martin bureau of statistics". In answering the hon. member's question may I say that I get a great deal of satisfaction from the fact that the trend has been reversed, from the fact that two months earlier than has been the case in other years, unemployment is showing a decrease rather than an increase. I take a great deal of pride in that, Mr. Speaker, because of the fact that the things this government has done have brought about this change.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the minister would add to our information on this very important matter by giving us the comparable percentage figure in the United States.


Michael Starr: I have not got those figures with me-


Murdo William Martin: It is 6.1 per cent.


Michael Starr: -but I know that hon. members opposite have these figures. I think they are very much disturbed by this release because it did not show another increase as they expected.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Does the minister not realize that we are indeed disturbed by these figures,
Inquiries of the Ministry and deeply disturbed because the comparable figures in the United States are so much lower?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, this government-


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Murdo William Martin: May I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Can he say whether or not it is a fact that registrations at the national employment service offices for the month of February show an increase of 16,000 compared with the previous reported period of January 15, 1959?


Michael Starr: In answer to that question I want to advise the hon. member that registrations at the national employment service offices in March show a decrease of 65,707 from a year ago, or 7.6 per cent.


Murdo William Martin: May I ask the
minister, in view of his reply, if the figures he gave out this morning are inaccurate when they show that as of January 15, 1959 there were 775,658 compared with 791,210 as of February 19, 1959?


Michael Starr: The figures I gave the hon. member in reply were more up to date.


Murdo William Martin: If they are more up to date, will the minister explain why he issued this morning the figures I have just given to the house? What the hon. gentleman has done is not to take the people of Canada-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Murdo William Martin: -and this parliament into his confidence with regard to these figures.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the procedure followed in the compilation of these figures is the same as was established by hon. members opposite when they formed the government, and we are not changing it one bit. In mid-February the dominion bureau of statistics figure is given and so, in comparison, is the mid-February figure of national employment service registrations, but as the head of the department I get up to date figures every week.



INQUIRY AS TO EXTENSION OF FEDERAL WINTER WORKS PROGRAM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Paul Hellyer (Trinity):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has the minister given further consideration to the possibility of extending the emergency winter work program?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Michael Starr: That matter is still being given consideration.



MOTION FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 74-Mr. Fisher:
For a copy of the return made to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources showing the number of pounds of eiderdown collected and the disposal thereof for 1956, 1957 and 1958, as required by the permit issued by the Canadian wildlife service on the 13th day of April, 1956, to Fernand Boucher and Andre Grenier, 3551 Park avenue, Montreal, Quebec.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, in view of the
fact that March 31 is the 10th anniversary of the union of Newfoundland with Canada I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether before that date the government will announce its intention to carry out the recommendations of the McNair commission report?
Righl Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, an announcement can be expected before that date.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Jacques Flynn (Quebec South):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. As it is mentioned in today's news that a summit conference will take place in the middle of the summer, would the Prime Minister be kind enough to tell the house if there is a possibility that such a conference may be held in Canada?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, certainly it would be a source of gratification to the Canadian people if the summit conference were held in Canada. There are available at the Citadel in the city of Quebec those facilities which I believe would render a summit conference in that city not only feasible but appropriate. Since Canada is located between the two major countries, namely the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.A., and has close affiliation with the United Kingdom and France, I am sure that Canadians as a whole would welcome the holding of this conference in this country.

I did suggest Canada as a suitable place for the holding of that conference to Mr. Macmillan when he was here recently.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. M. Batten (Humber-St. George's):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Justice. In view of the further disturbances over the past week end in western Newfoundland, is it now the intention of the minister to send R.C.M.P. reinforcements to western Newfoundland?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I have had no report with regard to this disturbance which would indicate that the situation is different from what it was when it was referred to earlier by the Prime Minister in his statement to this house.



REQUEST FOR TABLING OF TELEGRAM FROM MAYOR OF ST. JOHN'S

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavista-Twillin-gate):: I should like to ask the minister a supplementary question. Is it true that the minister received representations from the mayor of St. John's indicating that, because of the failure of the federal government to carry out its contract, the city of St. John's was seriously denuded of police?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I had a telegram from the mayor of St. John's some two weeks ago, Mr. Speaker, to which I replied, and I have had no further representations.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister be willing to table this communication?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Well, I do not know, Mr. Speaker, whether one should table every telegram which is received, and every reply. They do not seem to me to cast any further light on thq matter than that contained in the question put to the minister. I have had such representations, and I have sent a reply.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I request the minister to make the information available to parliament.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Very well. If the house will consent, Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to table the telegram.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. J. Mcllrailh (Ottawa West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence whether he is now able to advise the house as to when he will table the white paper on defence.


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: The answer that I gave on March 10 still applies today.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Will the minister not do his best to see that this white paper is in the possession of hon. members before the Easter recess, so that it may be studied during the recess?


George Randolph Pearkes: Since my estimates cannot be brought down before the Easter recess it is quite impossible to get the white paper out to members before the Easter recess.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Azellus Denis (St. Denis):: I should like to ask the Postmaster General a question. Is he aware of the meeting of post office employees held in Ottawa yesterday? Was he invited to that meeting and has he any comment to make on it?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the meeting that was held yesterday. I was invited, but unfortunately it was impossible for me to attend. My comment today is exactly the same as I made to the hon. member for St. Denis on February 10 and again on February 24, when I pointed out to him that the matters under discussion were the concern of the civil service commission at this point.


Azellus Denis: May I direct a supplementary question to the Secretary of State. As the Postmaster General says this matter comes under the civil service commission, which comes under the control of the minister, may I ask him if he is aware of the meeting held in Ottawa yesterday by post office employees, and if he has any comment to make.


Hon. Henri Courtemanche (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, I was not aware of the meeting in Ottawa yesterday, and I have no comment to make.


Azellus Denis: May I ask the Prime Minister a question. Is he in a position at this time
Inquiries of the Ministry to keep one promise, the promise he made to answer today the question I have just asked the Secretary of State and the Postmaster General? When there is some hardship so far as the post office employees are concerned, there must be somebody in the government who is responsible.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, no one can but pay tribute to the hon. gentleman for the affability he always displays when he asks his questions. I have been waiting for the opportunity to answer the question which I undertook to answer the other day. A similar question was asked by the hon. member on March 10 and on an earlier date, February 24, a question of like import was asked of the Postmaster General. At that time the Postmaster General replied:
-these are matters which come, in the first instance, under the responsibility of the civil service commission. It is not possible for an individual minister to establish wages for his employees or deal with the other factors which have been discussed at these meetings.
That was part of the answer he gave. I should like to draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that I have at all times laid stress on the independent position of the civil service commission, and that that independent position must be scrupulously maintained and recognized. In a letter to one of the civil service organizations, the civil service association of Canada, in October, 1958 I pointed out that the civil service commission represents neither the employees nor the government as an employer. The responsibilities of the commission in regard to the matter of salaries are clearly set out in the Civil Service Act. It is realized that the decisions of the commission on salary matters have not always met with full agreement, but at all times the various organizations have expressed their utmost confidence in the commission.
Some representations were addressed to me by the federated association of letter carriers and the Canadian postal employees association and, relying on the premise I have already stated, I forwarded those letters to the civil service commission. The civil service commission has informed me that it will take into consideration the representations of these associations concerning salaries, compensation, overtime and the like.
I wish to say that in reviewing salaries of civil servants the pay research bureau of the civil service commission takes into consideration all classes of the service. For that reason I take it that any individual group of employees will not be dealt with separately by the commission.

Inquiries of the Ministry PUBLIC SERVICE



CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION-INQUIRY AS TO APPOINTMENT OF CHAIRMAN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Would the Prime Minister inform the house when he proposes to appoint a chairman of the civil service commission?


John George Diefenbaker: I am hoping, Mr. Speaker, that an appointment will be made very soon.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Douglas Jung (Vancouver Centre):: May
I direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. As the minister is doubtless aware, the C.B.C. radio and T.V. studios in Vancouver are at present situated in three different locations. With a view to increasing administrative efficiency and reducing production costs, as well as to create employment, would the minister advise whether the C.B.C. has given, or will give, consideration to the erection in Vancouver of a building which would house all the radio and T.V. facilities of the C.B.C.?


Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: The hon. member was good enough to speak to me about this last week, so I was able to make inquiry of the C.B.C. The answer is that there is undoubtedly a need for the centralization of activities in Vancouver. However, the same need exists in other cities, notably in Toronto and Montreal. In view of these circumstances, some time ago the corporation acquired some land for the purpose of constructing buildings some time in the future. There are no immediate plans for carrying out such construction at this time.


Paul Theodore Hellyer: Does the minister know if the C.B.C. presently hold lands in Toronto upon which it intends to build a central building in the near future?


George Clyde Nowlan: The C.B.C. owns land in Toronto and it also leases several properties, as the hon. member knows; I think some 20 in all. However, the C.B.C. has not acquired any land for the immediate purpose of further construction.



SALT FISH-REQUEST FOR STATEMENT ON MARKETING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce, Mr. Speaker, if he would endeavour to make a statement on salt fish marketing tomorrow in order to give hon. members an opportunity to study it in case they should wish to raise questions about this matter which is so important to the east coast.


Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Yes, Mr. Speaker.



URANIUM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: A week ago last Thursday I asked the Minister of Trade and Commerce a question about the reported sale of six tons of uranium oxide by South Africa to Japan without a bilateral agreement. He said he would look into the matter.


Gordon Minto Churchill: 
Lester Bowles Pearson: I also asked the minister on the previous occasion whether the policy being followed by certain uranium exporters in this matter, that is of selling without bilateral agreements, will affect the policy of the Canadian government in selling any uranium only within such bilateral agreement.


Gordon Minto Churchill: We have this matter under serious consideration, but we are working closely with the international agency that is concerned with atomic energy and the sale of uranium. The question of setting up safeguards is closely linked to the bilateral agreements between uranium producers and those who require that metal. At the moment we are holding to the bilateral agreements with the necessary safeguards.



PRIVATE BILLS

[Stage Direction]
On the order:
March 19-House in committee on Bill S-ll, an act to incorporate the Evangelical Mennonite Conference. (Without amendment)-Mr. Jorgenson.
Mr. R. J. McCleave (Halifax):: In view of the absence of the sponsor of this bill, Mr. Speaker, I would move that it be referred

to the committee together with all the divorce bills standing on the order paper for reference to the committee.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house that the private bills standing on the order paper for consideration in committee of the whole be referred to the committee of the whole in one motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. John B. Hamilton (York West):: I believe there are about five private bills mixed up with these divorce bills, and I would assume that they would be taken in proper order.


Mr. Speaker:: Well, then, has the hon. member any objection to taking items 1 to 30 in one motion?


John Borden Hamilton: I think we should have an explanation of No. 1, and after that we can take them down to item 31.


Mr. Speaker:: Well, then, the motion is that I do leave the chair.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



THE EVANGELICAL MENNONITE CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill S-ll, to incorporate the Evangelical Mennonite Conference-Mr. McCleave-Mr. Rea in the chair.
On clause 1-Incorporation.
Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Chairman, I intend to speak very briefly on this bill, which comes appropriately before us as we move into the holiest season of the year, that is Easter. It is perhaps appropriate that at this time we consider this measure in committee and, subsequently, give it third reading. I am not familiar with the precise nature of the religious community that is being established by this bill. I believe the hon. member for Lisgar will have a few words to say on that point in a few moments.
Since I stand for the sponsor of the bill, I should like to assure the committee that the bill has been given proper consideration in the other place and by the miscellaneous private bills committee, where the sponsor was pleased to attend and explain the provisions. I think I should say further that the 19 or 20 clauses in this particular bill are in the standard form for setting up these religious associations.


Mr. Muir (Lisgar):: I should like to add to what the hon. gentleman has said concerning this bill that the purpose is to set up a central administrative body to administer the funds of the various congregations of this church, over and above that needed on the local level. It will co-ordinate the efforts of these congregations and enable the larger ones
Private Bills
to assist the smaller ones in getting established. It will also facilitate the distribution of church funds collected for missionary work in foreign fields. I think this is the same procedure that is used by the majority of churches of all faiths in this country. This measure will greatly assist this religious body in furthering its work amongst the people of that faith.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 18 inclusive agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Bill SD- 102, for the relief of Esther Men-delson Levy.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-103, for the relief of Joseph Louis Charles Gabriel Gascon.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-105, for the relief of Gerald Leblanc.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-106, for the relief of Morris Gordon. -Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-108, for the relief of Rita Lucia Palmieri Bellefleur.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-109, for the relief of Alex Groot. -Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD 112, for the relief of Wauneta Langill Bourque.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-113, for the relief of Pierrette Bertrand Suchereault, otherwise known as Pierrette Bertrand Chussereault.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-114, for the relief of Yolande Bosse Murphy.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-115, for the relief of Joseph Rolland Wright.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-116, for the relief of Rosalie Jakes Reisinger.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-117, for the relief of Jacqueline Ann Rosenfeld Bernstein.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-118, for the relief of Margit Elizabeth Mary Temke Malcolm.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-119, for the relief of Celia Claire Kanigsberg Dickman.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-120, for the relief of Constantin Deacur.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-121, for the relief of Bernard Four-cade.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-122, for the relief of Sylvia Mary Mefrige Makad.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-123, for the relief of Marjorie Seymour Hammond Pearson.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-124, for the relief of Helene Dage-nais Roy.-Mr. McCleave.
[Stage Direction]
Private Bills
Bill SD-125, for the relief of Violet Winni-fred Kean Newton Armstrong.-Mr. Mc-Cleave.
Bill SD-126, for the relief of Marlene Marie Korn.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-127, for the relief of Elaine Shirley Dorfman Moscovitch.

Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-128, for the relief of Eric Alexander McConnell.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-129, for the relief of Etta Hose Palevsky Lerman.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-130, for the relief of Edward Bruce Bonneville.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-131, for the relief of Pamela Margaret Clark Creber.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-132, for the relief of June Bernice Rath O'Hanley.-Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-133, for the relief of Michael Zuk. -Mr. McCleave.
Bill SD-134, for the relief of George Frederick Davies.-Mr. McCleave.

Jacques Flynn: the second reading of Bill S-14, to incorporate the Congregation of the Sisters of the Holy Family of Bordeaux.
He said:
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to incorporate, under the federal parliament authority, the Congregation of the Sisters of the Holy Family of Bordeaux. It is a Roman Catholic congregation, established in Canada in 1904 and which, since that time, has concerned itself with hospital care and education, mainly in the province of Quebec.
The congregation seeks a federal charter because it is considering extension of its activities beyond the province of Quebec.
I said just now that that congregation, Mr. Speaker, is concerned with hospital care. In fact, it operates several hospitals, one in Ville Saint-Laurent, another in Saint-Paul-l'Ermite, one in Quebec, which is well known -Notre-Dame-de-l'Esperance hospital-one at Amqui, one at Seven Islands and, finally, another one at Blanc-Sablon, in Labrador.
In the field of education, that congregation operates several schools in the Matapedia valley, in addition to Indian schools in Roman River, Labrador, and at Blanc-Sablon. It also operates, at Ville-Saint-Laurent a training school for certified nurses who provide home nursing care.
In view of the above, I need hardly point out that the activities of that congregation

are extensive and based on the loftiest altruistic motives. That is why I feel sure that this bill, which has already been considered in detail by the Senate, will be approved by the house.


Mr. J.-Alfred Belzile (Malapedia-Malane):: Mr. Speaker, may I be allowed to take up a few minutes of the house's time, as did my colleague the hon. member for Quebec South (Mr. Flynn), to express support of Bill S-14 which he has just introduced.
The basic purpose of Bill S-14 is to allow a Canadian religious order the right to incorporate under the name of Congregation of the Sisters of the Holy Family of Bordeaux.
As I say, Mr. Speaker, the passing of this bill should contribute to give the congregation legal uniformity by allowing it to incorporate. In view of the fact that the Congregation of the Sisters of the Holy Family, which heretofore was also known as the Sisters of Hope, are now operating missions in my constituency, including a maternity hospital at Amqui, county seat of Matapedia, and primary schools in the parishes of Saint-Vianney, Sainte-Irene, Saint-Alexandre-des-Lacs, and Lac-Humqui, it can safely be assumed that within a few years, they will be in a position to expand their present activities to an even greater degree, and thus to render even greater services to society in the hospital and educational fields.
For all those reasons, as well as others that would be too long to mention, it is with great pleasure that I support Bill S-14.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka)
(for Mr. Fleming, Okanagan-Revelstoke) moved the second reading of Bill S-13 respecting the Canadian General Council of the Boy Scouts Association.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the object of this bill is relatively simple. It is intended to remove the "ceiling" on the amount of real property which the Canadian general council of the boy scouts association may hold. As a former member of the scout organization, both as a scout and as a leader, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of moving the second reading of this bill on behalf of the hon. member for Okanagan-Revelstoke

(Mr. Fleming) who is unavoidably absent. That hon. member, who was to have moved the bill, has a long history of association with the boy scout organization and was only recently awarded the medal of merit by that organization.
The Canadian general council of the boy scouts association was incorporated by chapter 130 of the statutes of 1914 which received the royal assent on June 12, of that year. Section 8 of that act authorized the association to receive, hold and dispose of real estate, but added a proviso that the amount should not exceed the value of $50,000. On reading over the debates which took place in connection with that bill back in 1914 I find that some hon. members at that time wondered why the amount was so large. Looking at the matter in retrospect, taking into consideration the way in which the boy scout movement has grown and developed, we realize that this amount was totally inadequate and that at the present time it is quite unrealistic. In support of the need for this authority to hold additional real estate I should like to give the house a few facts with regard to the organization. Many of them are well known, but I think this would be an appropriate time and place to reflect on the advance made by this organization since 1914 and on the need for allowing them to hold increased capital.
It is 45 years since this association became an incorporated body. The dramatic growth of the movement to its present membership of nearly 256,000 has given ample proof of the effectiveness of the program which the association has undertaken. Unlike so many other organizations, the scouts do not confine their activities to urban districts and municipalities. They have reached out into remote hamlets in every part of this country. The association has extended its work until it has reached the Eskimos and the Indians in our northern territory. I myself became a boy scout through the medium of a little known portion of the movement called "The Lone Scouts" organized in areas where there were not enough boys or leaders available for a group to be formed. We formed small groups of three or four boys with a councillor or an assistant, and a great many boys be-became scouts by joining the lone scouts organization.
The movement is of particular value in a country of such racial and religious diversification as Canada. The ranks are open to boys of every faith and of every racial background. The emphasis is on duty to God and loyalty to country and this is of immense importance in a country where we are trying to weld together into a single Canadian
Private Bills
people citizens who come from every continent and who claim every country as a birthplace or country of origin. The appeal of the scout movement is not only to groups of differing religious or racial background. The movement also serves the blind, the deaf, the crippled, and the mentally retarded. It gives young lads in these unfortunate circumstances an interest in life'-a feeling that they have something in common with other boys who have the normal advantages. A great work is done in such special troops.
The organization does not forget the military personnel. It has organized troops in Europe and in overseas bases to such effect that nearly 1,000 boys belong to the scout organization at army and air force bases in France and Germany. The boy scout program is offered to organizations interested in the development of good citizenship in this country, and it is interesting to note that 50 different organizations sponsor boy scouts groups-churches, service clubs, home and school organizations among them. In fact, almost every organization which is concerned with the welfare of youth and of Canada is either sponsoring a scout group or giving one active support.
Many of our leading citizens have been members of the scout organization, including, I am told the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) and several members of his cabinet, many hon. members of this house and a number of hon. senators from the other place. I have spoken to a number of hon. members of this chamber in connection with the scout movement while this bill was in preparation, and almost every one of those to whom I spoke said he had been a member of the scout organization in his youth. My neighbour, the hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Anderson) tells me he was the first wolf cub in Galt, and that was quite a few years ago. Leaders of religious, educational and many other groups in Canada have not only belonged to this organization but continue to support it. Today, more than a quarter of a million boys are receiving training under more than 25,000 dedicated leaders whose only reward is the knowledge that they are making good citizens for this country. Because of its system of sponsorship and its ability to take its program to the smallest communities in Canada, the boy scout association is serving more boys than all the other youth character training agencies combined.
Much is said today about juvenile delinquency. This is a phrase which I do not much like, but it has become part of the nomenclature of social welfare work in Canada and I suppose we must accept it.
[Stage Direction]
Private Bills
The scout organization has done a great deal in a positive rather than a negative way to prevent juvenile delinquency and to advance the cause of the development of good citizens in Canada.
In all frankness I must point out to the house that this bill has a retroactive effect. It is feared that the limit provided in the original act of incorporation has now been exceeded many times. The organization feels that to remove any doubt as to its title to various lands it holds retroactive effect must be given. There were similar associations organized at about the same time most of which had a similar limitation on the real estate held and several have already been required to come back to parliament to ask that the ceiling be lifted.
I do not wish to burden the house with details of the real estate held by the boy scouts association but I shall simply state that in the early days an attempt was made to record centrally all real estate that the association owned or that was held for it. As the movement grew such central recording became impossible. Scout groups in some cases own their own premises. In some cases the title is taken in the name of the central board. In still other cases the title is taken in the name of trustees. It is therefore difficult to know exactly how much real estate is held but it exceeds many times at this moment the amount originally authorized.
Most provinces have their own offices and campsites. The Canadian general council owns its own headquarters, property on which a new headquarters is to be built, and a property in the Gatineau that will provide income. I have great pleasure in moving second reading of this bill.
Mr. J. F. Browne (Vancouver-Kingsway):: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure tor me to have the opportunity this afternoon to say a few words in support of this measure introduced by the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka (Mr. Aiken). As the hon. member pointed out to us the purpose of this amendment is to repeal the financial limitations that were placed on the Canadian general council of the Boy Scouts association at the time of its incorporation. I do not think we should be surprised that a measure of this nature has come before us today when we realize that this organization was incorporated some 45 years ago and when we consider prices in those days as compared with current prices.
As the hon. member also pointed out, the limitation initially imposed has unfortunately probably already been exceeded and therefore the bill includes a retroactive feature in order to cover the operations of the 
organization. I believe that can be explained not only by the great expansion of the association but by the increased value of property and other developments that have occurred since the time of the incorporation of the association.
In reviewing discussions that occurred at the time of the original incorporation the question of the financial limitation was one of the two main points that were raised.
The other was the fear that was expressed about this being a military organization which perhaps arose because of the association of Lord Baden-Powell with the army. However, I believe that fear has been dispelled and every hon. member of this house will agree that the boy scouts association has made an extremely notable contribution to the welfare of the youth of this country. One of its purposes throughout the years is to make good citizens of our youngsters. I believe it has been highly successful in this respect and to that extent it may have had some connection with the army because many of the chaps who were members of the organization went on to serve their country faithfully during the war.
Preparation for military service was not, however, the primary purpose of the organization. The association has made a great contribution to almost every aspect of our national life. While we are speaking here of the Canadian boy scouts association it could also be noted that there are groups in some 57 nations and therefore they play their part in building up better international relations throughout the world.
In terms of legislation this bill appears to be of a minor character but the amendments it embodies are of great importance to the association in helping them carry out their activities. At this time I feel it is fitting that we should pay tribute to the many thousands of leaders who have devoted their time and energy to directing boy scout groups throughout the years. As the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka mentioned, most hon. members of this house have been associated with the boy scouts in one way or another throughout the years and are perhaps particularly aware of the values arising from the organization. We all know from our own experience that in most efforts of this kind it is difficult to find people who will devote their time and energy year after year to the work being carried on. Sometimes organizations of this kind are started and later fall by the wayside through lack of volunteer support. For that reason I wish to pay tribute to those selfless individuals who have devoted their time to serving as leaders of these groups thoughout the years.

Because of the association of many hon. members of this house with boy scouts over the course of time it is perhaps fitting that we pay tribute at this moment to the contribution made by the late Lord Baden-Powell. In closing my remarks I should like to draw to our minds a statement he made in what he intended to be his last message to boy scouts throughout the world which I believe sets out many of the concepts of that organization as he conceived them in his mind. It might be well for us to reflect upon them and to bring them again to our own minds at this time. I wish to read a portion of the last statement he made to the organization, commencing approximately half-way and continuing to the end:
I have had a most happy life and I want each one of you to have as happy a life too.
I believe that God has put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness doesn't come from being rich, nor merely from being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step toward happiness is to make yourself healthy and strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful and so you can enjoy life when you are a man.
Nature study will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented with what you have got and make the best of it. Look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one.
But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you found it and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but have done your best.
"Be prepared'' in this way, to live happy and die happy-stick to your scout promise always-even after you have ceased to be a boy-and God help you to do it.


Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all hon. members are very glad to see the necessity of this amendment contained in this bill. To a great extent it shows that the assets of the boy scouts association have grown in this country in the last 45 years. The corollary, of course, is the great growth of the organization itself.
The two hon. members who have preceded me supported this bill and pointed out many things which are complimentary to the boy scouts association. I do not wish to repeat what they said but there are some further observations I should like to bring to the attention of hon. members and indirectly to the country at large. Like the previous speakers, I was a member of the boy scouts organization and I have no hesitation in being a strong protagonist of the movement. First of all, I think the boy scouts organization can be a great help in the world at the present time not only from the national point of view but from the international point of view; this affects us all very much.
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As we all know, no country in the world lives unto itself today. We are not an island. The international character of the boy scouts has already been pointed out. It is organized in 57 different countries of the world and it does a very great deal to bring about international understanding among different races, cultures and religions at an early age in people's lives. This is a very important thing, Mr. Speaker. When we get older habit patterns and prejudice are set in our minds. If we can form the right habit patterns and the right attitude and feeling toward people in other countries at an early age those habit patterns are not easy to change. This is one of the great contributions of the boy scout movement.
Every year they have international jamborees and young people from 12 to 18 years of age have the opportunity to associate with people of the same age in other parts of the world. It is a wonderful opportunity to create mutual understanding which lasts all through people's lives.
We all have great interest in the work of the United Nations and in our ultimate aspirations toward one world. I can think of no organization that does more to further those aspirations of everyone in general, as I have already said, at the proper age level, than does the boy scouts.
I do not think I could add to what has already been said regarding the fine work that the organization does for Canada itself. I believe the hon. member for Parry Sound-Muskoka pointed out the excellent work the organization does to prevent young people falling into the trap of juvenile delinquency. As our society changes, and particularly as it changed during world war II and after, we find that quite often both parents go to work instead of just the proverbial breadwinner, the father of the family. Because of this factor in our society at the present time some of the discipline and training formerly given at home are not given there perhaps to the same extent as they were in the past. The fine character building and disciplinarian training that the young people get in the boy scouts organization help to give them moral values which they must have later in life. It also provides them with the necessary disciplinary training.
In other countries of the world, Mr. Speaker, in most other NATO countries, as a matter of fact, compulsory military service for teenagers at some period during that time of life provides a great deal of the discipline. Of course, in other countries with which we are not associated, such as the totalitarian countries, military training of one sort or another goes on for a much longer period. However,

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I think that the boy scouts movement, without having any of the disagreeable or detrimental aspect of military training, does much to provide the necessary discipline .at an early age which stands people in good stead later on in life.
One other observation I should like to make, Mr. Speaker, is that Canada is a particularly suitable country for the boy scouts movement to work in. When I say this, I have particular reference to the geography and the climate of Canada. We have a great country, full of lakes and rivers, a fine country for outdoor living. The training of young people in the boy scouts movement will be a great help to them in later years, not only from the disciplinarian point of view or from the character-building point of view but from the point of view of being able to enjoy the leisure time which is now becoming more and more available in our economic system. Because of the work of the trade unions and the general attitude of people throughout the country those who toil now have more leisure time and the big problem is to know and understand how to appreciate properly one's leisure time. Instead of sitting watching television programs people at an early age are learning to appreciate the out of doors with the accompanying pleasure, enjoyment, relaxation and piece of mind that come from appreciating the out of doors. This training is given well in the boy scouts movement.
It has always been a pleasure to me to see the recognition that the federal government has given to the boy scouts, chiefly because of its work in citizenship. In the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration each year a grant of $15,000 is given to assist the movement. In 1955, when the world scout jamboree was held in Niagara Falls, the Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton) recognized this by producing a commemorative stamp on that occasion.
I should like to say a word in regard to the girl guides association, which is the sister or counterpart movement of the boy scouts. It does the same kind of work and everything that has been said about the boy scouts also applies to the girl guides. The federal government gives the girl guides the same recognition by also providing a grant of $15,000 a year. In 1960 the girl guides movement will be celebrating its fiftieth anniversary in Canada. I know this movement is anxious to have a commemorative stamp struck in honour of this occasion and I hope that at that time the Postmaster General will give the girl guides the same treatment as he gave the boy scouts.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, I intend to speak very briefly in this debate.

A matter of principle, of course, appears here and it has to do with the amount of property that can be owned by the Canadian boy scouts organization. This is not a new thing in this parliament. This is at least the second occasion this year on which a group or an association has had to come before us and ask that the amount of property they could hold be greatly increased. It does perhaps seem paradoxical that an organization whose motto is "Be Prepared", and which was founded almost 50 years ago when the nation was much smaller, and when $50,000 did seem like a large sum to members of parliament, could not think of this. As a consequence, I would like to ask the sponsor of the bill one question. Exactly what amount of property does the organization have? Can he give us a breakdown at least of the major items held by the Boy Scouts Association?


Mr. Aiken:: I am ready to answer the question if no one else wishes to speak.


Mr. Speaker:: I must inform the house that if the hon. member speaks now he will close the debate.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson), who is detained elsewhere, would have been very happy to say a word of tribute to the boy scouts association. This particular bill affords the opportunity of saying that we recognize the great inspiration and training given not only to the boys of our country but the boys of the commonwealth and boys in so many countries of the world. The boy scouts association, since the days of its founder, Lord Baden-Powell, has made a contribution to the unification of the commonwealth in its respective countries in spirit as well, of course, as providing our sons with incentives and inspirations that mean so much to the healthy development of the boys of our country and the boys of the world.
When one thinks that Baden-Powell served in South Africa under that great public servant, Alfred Milner, one realizes the influence of Milner on the then Colonel Powell. One also thinks of the great influence of Baden-Powell himself on countless numbers of young men who have served their generations and their countries as a result of the initial experience gained by them as boy scouts. Like so many other members I join, in the absence of the Leader of the Opposition who is at another meeting, in praising the work of this organization and I take advantage of this particular measure to say these words of approval in the hope that in some small way they will reflect

the unity of conviction that prevails in the house with regard to the great work of the boy scouts.
Finally, mention was made by the hon. member for Oxford (Mr. Nesbitt) of the girl guides. What one has said about the boy scouts one could say about them. I am happy to join with him, particularly because he comes from my section of the province, in the proposal he made for recognition of their anniversary by some action which, as he suggested, could more appropriately be taken by the Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton). If the Leader of the Opposition were in his seat he would have said these words but I am sure he would have said them much better.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As an old boy scout and as the minister in better days-


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry, but I must recognize the hon. member for Brome-Mis-sisquoi.


Mr. Howard Graffiey (Brome-Missisquoi):: Mr. Speaker, it is most certainly not my intention to take up too much of the time of the house but, like many other members, I represent a constituency where the boy scouts are doing most active and useful work. However, that is not my main purpose in rising at this time. My real reason for wishing to say a few words lies in the fact that I would be more than remiss if I did not bring to the attention of the house the fact that the boy scout movement in Canada includes not only the great host of boy scouts from coast to coast but also includes a great number of sea scouts.
I do not wish to pretend for a single moment that I am a prime example of the sea scout movement, but, in supporting Bill S-13, I should like to take this opportunity to say that the sea scouts association exemplifies all the qualities of leadership that have been mentioned by other speakers this afternoon. I should like to point out, the sea scouts organization prepared many boys for active service in the navy during the second world war. I should also like to voice my word of thanks as an old sea scout to the scouting movement and commend the bill to the most serious attention of the house. I am grateful for the opportunity to say a few words this afternoon.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, evidently not only was I prepared but I was too well prepared. As hon. members know, the motto of the boy scouts is "Be Prepared". I have always taken this seriously all my life and I think it is one of the best mottoes in the world. I also think that the boy scouts are one of the best organizations in the world. My only excuse for taking a minute or two of the time of the
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house this afternoon is that I was, as minister of citizenship and immigration and as Mr. Harris was before me, very much interested in promoting this work through the department, and I have no doubt that the hon. lady who now presides over the department also is.
Unfortunately-in fact, doubly unfortunately-I did not have the advantage that the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Grafftey) had of being a sea scout. That would undoubtedly have stood me in good stead in later life. Unfortunately, I was brought up 2,000 miles from the sea and in the days before the Hudson Bay Railway was built even if one was quite prepared to be a sea scout it was rather hard in Manitoba. I believe that has been repaired now by including the Red river as part of the sea. But the sea scouts are, of course, a very important branch of the boy scouts, particularly on our coasts, and there is no doubt that they have added vastly to the value of the organization.
I should like to join with other members who have already spoken in saying that I hope the Postmaster General (Mr. Hamilton) will yield to persuasion and commemorate the anniversary of the girl guides with a stamp. I hope he will not regard it as a lobby, which seems to be very unfashionable with the government these days, but merely the gentle persuasion of the devoted women who have given their time to this organization.
(Translation):


Mr. L. J. Pigeon (Joliette-L'Assompiion-Montcalm):: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to support this bill, especially in view of the outstanding role played by the boy scout movement in the world and because here in Canada, all provinces are fortunate in having one or more branches of this world-wide organization.
Boy scouts play a significant role in the province of Quebec, more particularly in the federal constituency of Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm. The city of Joliette has a boy scout organization which is an asset to the town of Joliette and to the constituency of Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm.
Scouting in Canada provides useful training; it teaches the young the spirit of sacrifice, of devotion to the community and trains him to be a better citizen.
I am glad to support this bill which will contribute to the growth of scouting in Canada.
(Text):


Mr. O. W. Weichel (Waterloo North):: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak briefly in support of Bill S-13 having to do with the

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boys scouts association. It was my privilege to act as chairman of the boys scouts in Elmira for over 13 years and I have seen this group benefit greatly from this very important work. In our community there are thousands of boys who belong to the scout movement. I believe that today we have between 6 million and 7 million boys all over the world in this great movement. Scouting and religion have a very close affinity. The rules of the association provide that every scout must belong to some religious organization and faithfully carry out his religious duties.
Scouting carries with it many promises. The wolf cub promises to do his best, to do his duty to God and the Queen; to keep the law of the wolf cub pack and to do a good turn to somebody every day. The wolf cub gives in to the old wolf, but does not give in to himself. The boy scout promise is:
On my honour I promise that I will do my best-
To do my duty to God, and the Queen,
To help other people at all times.
To obey the scout law.
Now, the scout law is as follows:
(i)	A scout's honour is to be trusted.
(ii)	A scout is loyal to the Queen, his country, his scouters, his parents, his employers and those under him.
(iii)	A scout's duty is to be useful and to help others.
(iv)	A scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other scout.
(v)	A scout is courteous.
(vi)	A scout is a friend to animals.
(vii)	A scout obeys the orders of his parents, patrol leader, or scoutmaster without question.
(vii) A scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties.
(ix)	A scout is thrifty.
(x)	A scout is clean in thought, word and deed.
These promises, Mr. Speaker, when carried out are of great benefit to our country. (Translation):


Mr. Remi Paul (Berthier-Maskinonge-Dela-naudiere):: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in giving my humble support to this bill in favour of Canadian scouts. By his activities and participation in youth movements a scout is always a comfort to his parents.
Scouting is a training school which affords a young boy opportunities for contact with his fellow-scouts, and the instruction, education and training he receives in this association with them cannot fail to be very profitable to him as it has to others who, in the past, have had the good fortune to belong to that organization. Canada, therefore, can only benefit from the part these boys are playing in its growth and development. This youth training organization also allows young boys, from all countries, on the occasion of international jamborees, to become aware of their power and of the
[Mr. Weichel.l
part they will be called upon to play later in society. Moreover, as a result of the contacts they make during those meetings, they are able to work in some measure for the preservation of peace which, unfortunately, is too often in jeopardy.
That is why, Mr. Speaker, I consider this legislation most appropriate and would not miss this opportunity to pay tribute to the scouts of my riding of Berthier-Maski-nonge-Delanaudiere. They all know they will have to work hard to ensure not only their own welfare but that of all their fellow-citizens, for scout training has already proven its worth; indeed out of the ranks of scouts have come many men who have made their mark in politics and in government.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I must inform the house that if the hon. member speaks now, he will close the debate.


Gordon Harvey Aiken: In closing the debate, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I was very pleased to find so many hon. members taking part and paying tribute to the scout organization in Canada. When I opened the debate I mentioned that apparently many members had been members of the scout organization during their lifetime. During the course of the debate it was revealed that almost all the members had either been scouts, scout leaders or actively interested in the organization. I find also that two or three of our hon. members have been awarded a medal by the scouts, and amongst them is the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Fraser).
There was one question asked by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. McCleave) relating to the amount of real estate which the organization now holds. I think the house will be rather startled, Mr. Speaker, when I give these figures which I have in this file, especially in view of the fact that originally only $50,000 was allotted. The figures which I will give may not be entirely accurate because, as I stated, some of the real estate is held in trust for local groups and does not stand in the name of the national organization. However, I would give this list, which is in general terms.
In Vancouver, there are buildings to the value of $100,000 and campsites, $30,000. In Edmonton, there are two buildings totalling in value $40,000 and two campsites, $145,000. In Calgary, there is a building valued at $15,000 and a campsite valued at $25,000. In Regina, the building is valued at $20,000; Saskatoon, a building valued at $15,000; in Winnipeg, a campsite valued at $15,000; at Gimli, a campsite valued at $25,000; in Toronto, a building valued at $150,000 and

9 campsites totalling $150,00; in Haliburton, campsites, $30,000; in Hamilton, a building valued at $75,000 and a campsite, $25,000; in Oshawa, a campsite valued at $400,000; in Ottawa, a campsite, $50,000; a second campsite at $15,000. In Ottawa, there is also a building valued at $180,000 and two properties valued together at $85,000; Montreal, a building valued at $100,000, four campsites $150,000; Halifax, a campsite valued at $25,000, and in Charlottetown a campsite valued at $75,000.
According to my calculation, Mr. Speaker, the total of these items is $1,442,500. It will be readily seen from these figures that the retroactive feature of this bill is a most essential part of it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Mr. H. F. Jones (Saskatoon) moved: the second reading of Bill S-15, respecting Co-operative Fire and Casualty Company.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and pleasure for me to present this bill to the house at this time. For many years my family has been associated with the co-operative movement in western Canada. My father, Frank Jones, was one of those who was associated with Robert MacKay of Melfort, C. G. Davidson of Lloydminster, Warren L. Hart of Landis, Jock Wilson of Davidson, J. H. Robson of Feudal, and Jack Sample of Landis in providing some of the early stimulus to the development of the consumer co-operative movement in the west. As hon. members know, the co-operative movement is divided into two branches, the producers' co-operative movement and the consumers' co-operative movement, both making an important contribution to the welfare of this country.
The company in question is closely associated with both sides of the co-operative movement. For example, Mr. Speaker, on reference to the main statute we see that the principles of the consumer co-operative movement are recognized. Section 8 of the incorporating act of June 30, 1951 provides:
Each holder of an Insurance policy or policies issued by the company who is not in default in respect of his cash premium or assessment on his premium note, shall be a member of the company and shall have one vote.
In line with the general co-operative principles, qualification of directors is set out in the main statute in section 7:
Any policy holder who holds a policy or policies of insurance of the company to the amount at least one thousand dollars, and who is not in default in respect of his cash premium or his
66968-9-136
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premium note or any instalment or assessment on his premium note and who has paid in cash all liabilities incurred by him to the company shall be eligible to be elected as a director, but he shall cease to be such director if the amount of his insurance as aforesaid becomes reduced below the sum of one thousand dollars.
That is to say, Mr. Speaker, that the eligibility for position as a director in this company is such that almost any person who becomes a policy holder in this co-operative company may become a director.
I would now like to make some brief reference to some of those who started this company in 1951.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not want to curtail a brief reference if the hon. member thinks it relevant, but the principle of the bill seems to be a very limited one. The act is for the purpose of increasing from 3 to 6 per cent the rate of interest which may be allowed on money contributed or paid under guarantee, and I doubt if any wide excursion into the affairs of co-operatives, or even of this company, would be warranted.


Henry Frank Jones: Of course, Mr. Speaker, it was not my intention to do that at this time; I merely wanted to give the background in order that hon. members could appreciate the nature of the co-operative whose incorporating statute we are being asked to amend, and in order that they might be assured of the responsible nature of the people who head this co-operative when request is made to this house for such amendment. I can assure hon. members that this request has been very seriously considered by people who have had wide experience not only in the co-operative world but also in the general world of business.
As all members know, this amendment was passed by the other place. The present officers of this co-operative are as follows: President, R. H. Milliken; vice-president, W. M. McEwen; manager, G. Lloyd Matheson; secretary, W. B. Melvin; and treasurer, H. J. Pinch. May I mention briefly some of the directors who will be known to members of this house. They are Mr. R. Stanley-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I really do not think it is relevant to this debate to give the names of directors or members.


Henry Frank Jones: -and there are others, Mr. Speaker. Hon. members may be assured of the serious nature of the request for this amendment. The change, as Mr. Speaker has already noted, is a relatively limited one set forth in the explanatory notes, namely that in view of the improved financial position of the company and the general rising interest rates over the last number of years since the company was formed in 1951 it was felt in

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fairness to the contributing guarantors that the maximum rate payable should be increased. The suggestion is to increase the rate from 3 to 6 per cent per annum. The rate of 6 per cent has been selected to avoid further amendments to the statute.
Hon. members might be interested to note those who have contributed to this guarantee fund which is referred to in the section to which amendment is sought come from all across this country, from British Columbia to the east coast. This guarantee fund which has been established under the section now amounts to $572,150. The contributors are not only private persons but also other cooperatives. For example, some of the contributors are:	Maritime Co-op Services,
Manitoba Pool Elevators, Federated Cooperative Limited, Alberta Livestock Cooperative, Central Alberta Dairy Pool, and there are other co-operatives in each province right across the country.
At the present time the company is doing increasing business across the nation-in Alberta, in British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Saskatchewan. Many earlier years of hard work resulted last year in a favourable financial position being established at a time when trade in general in this particular line of endeavour had been difficult. In the words of the superintendent of insurance, the company has done amazingly well in a tough period.
I point out to hon. members who may wish to have further information that this particular co-operative is not one of the cooperatives which enjoy tax relief under section 68 of the Income Tax Act. This company has the same status for income tax purposes as every other Canadian fire and casualty insurance company; it pays taxes on its net income for the year at the regularly prescribed rates; it is not a marketing or producer co-operative as defined in section 73 of the Income Tax Act.
Having made these general remarks, I hope the house will see fit to approve the passage of this bill through second reading in order that this amendment, which will be favourable to this co-operative-a section of the great co-operative enterprise of this country -may go forward.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.

Mr. P. B. Rynard (Simcoe East) moved: the second reading of Bill S-16, respecting the Foothills Pipe Lines Limited.

He said: This is a bill to incorporate Foothills Pipe Lines Limited into a dominion company with its head office in Calgary. The foothill areas in the province of Alberta, like some other areas in this province, have a wet or sour type of gas as opposed to the dry type of gas, the usual type we have been dealing with. In this sour type of gas there are large amounts of hydrocarbon and hydrogen sulphide besides the natural gas. These products are separated from the natural gas.
When the production of gas in the province was a small operation and mostly involved the dry type of gas, it was quite possible for the small producer to extract and store the hydrocarbons and hydrogen sulphides, but the production of gas has now increased to the point where it is no longer feasible to do this. When the hidden production potential is considered it is obvious that new methods of handling must be devised, if we are not largely to lose the sales of these by-products. Furthermore, markets must be found outside Alberta for the sale of these by-products of gas. After a great deal of investigation, the economic and research statisticians feel that the cheapest method of handling is by pipe line to those parts of the country where it can be utilized in that area or shipped by boat to markets elsewhere-rail is much too expensive to carry these by-products.
There are various areas to which it would appear feasible to pipe. First, there is the great lakes areas of Fort William, Superior and Milwaukee. This would tap a market from these distributing centres of approximately two million tons. Second, there is the Pacific coast area, where the market is expected to reach between 250,000 tons and 350,000 tons. The third area would be the Chicago and St. Paul area now largely supplied from Texas and Oklahoma. This is an expanding market, and there are good prospects of selling these by-products there, particularly the lighter hydrocarbons- propane, butane and pentane. The propane will largely be used for heating and cooking, the butane for cooking and upgrading gasolines, and the pentane as a low grade gasoline.
Hon. members may ask: how can sulphur be shipped as a liquid in a pipe? It is done by compressing the gas into liquid hydrogen sulphide. It is obvious that hydrogen sulphide will be transported by separate pipe and that the hydrocarbons-propane, butane and methane-could be transported in the same pipe. The question might arise: why not ship by freight? First, the freight rates would be too high. Second, the necessary equipment would be too costly and, third, the cars would likely have to dead-head back

to their starting point. Another question might occur in the minds of hon. members. They might ask: why not use the present pipe lines? The answer of the gas interests is that the existing pipe lines would not be able to carry these products because they would contaminate natural gas or oil.
The starting point for this dual pipe line would likely be just outside Edmonton at Pine Creek. It is proposed that this pipe line be operated under the name of Foothills Pipe Line Limited. This would be a company sponsored by Pembrina Pipe Lines Limited of Alberta, a Canadian company with assets of over $26 million. The Foothills Pipe Line Company will be a subsidiary of Pembrina. It is proposed to incorporate this company at five million shares of $5 par value. This will be the first pipe line of its kind built in Canada, though there are examples of similar pipe lines in the United States where the by-products of gas are being successfully marketed.
It is for this reason that I would ask that this bill be referred to the committee where it can be looked into clause by clause with the experts who will be able to answer the various questions that may arise. I therefore move that Bill S-16 be passed to the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


Mr. Robert Simpson (Churchill) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give early consideration to the advisability of suggesting the installation of a television service by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for the populated areas of the constituency of Churchill.
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and pleasure for me to have the opportunity of introducing the resolution that is before the house at this time. I introduce it with a feeling of deep responsibility because I am keenly aware of the importance of television service to the people in the area I represent and the great interest they have in this question.
At the outset I wish to emphasize the degree of interest that has developed and which is continuing to grow in the Churchill constituency with respect to the question of television service. Indeed, I feel that words alone cannot adequately convey to the house the degree of interest of the people there and I am sure that if some hon. gentlemen 66968-9-1364
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had the opportunity of visiting my constituency they would very quickly appreciate the intensity of interest in this question on the part of the people there.
I wish to make clear that I realize there are certain procedures to be followed with respect to areas interested in obtaining television service and with respect to licences being granted to individuals to operate stations and I and many others in my constituency have already complied with these requirements. Through consultation with officials of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation I learned that representations for television service and licensing should be sent to the C.B.C. Such applications and representations are turned over to the Department of Transport for perusual and after having been considered from an engineering point of view they are sent to the board of broadcast governors for consideration. The board publicizes the application in the Canada Gazette with four weeks notice concerning the hearing of the application. Representations may be made from various parts of Canada. The board then recommends what may be done.
I have personally complied with this procedure and practically every town council, service club and other group in the Churchill constituency has forwarded representations to the C.B.C. or to me for forwarding to that body but as yet no commitment has been made. It is for this reason that I welcome this opportunity of bringing to the attention of this house and the government the sincere desire of the people in that area to have some consideration in this regard as quickly as possible.
In the Churchill constituency there are between 45,000 and 50,000 people and it would not be possible to extend services at this time to people throughout the entire area because some settlements are in outlying regions and it would of course take some time to extend the service to those areas. The resolution before us, however, deals mainly with the desire for having television service extended to the populated areas of the constituency. The most heavily populated areas are the district of Swan River, The Pas and Flin Flon. In addition to the number of people in the Churchill constituency to whom I made reference there are upwards of 70,000 people who could also be served by television coverage in that area because there are adjoining places which would naturally benefit from the passing into the Churchill constituency.
In order to demonstrate the vast amount of interest in this question that prevails in the Churchill constituency I might state that

Television
we have three weekly newspapers in the area and two daily newspapers in one of the towns. There are not too many towns or cities in western Canada that have two daily newspapers. Although these two dailies are not very large, each and every day they bring to the attention of the people the views and happenings in and around Flin Flon. Not a day goes by but that one sees in either the daily or weekly papers reference to the interest of the people in the district in acquiring television service. This has been the case for the last 16 or 18 months.
One representative headline reads:
The television picture for Flin Flon is far from clear at pretent.
In a recent issue of the newspaper published in The Pas, Manitoba, the entire editorial section on the second page was devoted exclusively to the subject of television. This particular one deals with the ill-fated test of low-power relay in the area. It says:
It seems that regardless of the outcome of the tests, the final answer to television or no television will rest with the C.B.C.
This is so in the case of the people at The Pas and Flin Flon and it may well also be so in the case of Dauphin. Even if the C.B.C. does agree to do something, when will it happen? All of the newspapers are much the same. Each and every one of them has television as one of its main interests. I hold in my hand a newspaper which has a reference to T.V. tests on the front page, and again they are referring to those low-power relay tests which were recently carried out in Manitoba. A great many people were discouraged because they thought that television was possibly coming into the area. Therefore, hon. members can appreciate their feeling when they learned that it was a failure. Every one of the papers that I pick up, Mr. Speaker, has television all over the front page. Another one says in a headline that Brandon is interested in putting television into northern Manitoba. Across the page it says, "Yorkton also has a Plan"; that is, a plan for putting television into northern Manitoba. Part of an editorial in the Northern Mail says:
The outcome is like the attitude that has up to now been expressed over T.V.
They were referring to the royal tour of next year. We hoped that Her Majesty the Queen and Prince Philip would be coming to northern Manitoba. All of the papers deal with the matter in the same way.
I have many more papers here. Each and every one of them talks about television. I have numerous petitions. I notice that when petitions have been sent to Ottawa recently in regard to other representations we see a great many pictures of them in the paper and one

thing and another. These are only a few that have come to my office during the last few days. There are hundreds and hundreds of names on them. However, most of them have been sent directly to the C.B.C. itself. These have come to me and the people are asking me to turn them over to the C.B.C. for consideration.
I might also say, that I have resolutions asking for television passed by the Flin Flon town council, the Flin Flon chamber of commerce, the Swan River chamber of commerce, The Pas chamber of commerce, The Pas town council, the village of Bowsman, Bowsman chamber of commerce, the village of Minitonas, and many others. All through the area, Mr. Speaker, those people are spending a great deal of their time and effort to convince the C.B.C. that television is very much desired in that area.
I should also like to point out that there are other reasons why those people should be given consideration. Throughout the years the people of the populated parts of Canada have expected other people to go into the north and pioneer, and that has been done. Many of the people in this area are the original pioneers, or the descendants of the original pioneers, in that area and they are getting to the stage now where they feel that some of the amenities of life which are lacking in the area should be given to them as quickly as possible. I think that television in northern Manitoba ties in with the northern development plan. If we are to keep skilled key workers in industry in the north we must give them every consideration. I know of many families that have left our area simply because there is no television for them and their families. Many of them have used that as their main reason for leaving. If we are to develop the north then we must give every consideration we can to the provision of television for the people.
Many of the people in my area know what the C.B.C. policy has been in regard to new extensions in other areas. Many of the people seem to think we should have it because we have the microwave system already constructed by the Manitoba telephone system. I agree that that is a major step forward, but I should like to point out to the house, as I have tried to point out to the people, that the C.B.C. plan of operation has not been to construct those microwave lines themselves. They have under contract the Trans-Canada Communications system, which constructed the trans-Canada microwave system along with the Bell Telephone Company. The C.B.C. also allows those people to deal with various provincial telephone companies which have microwave systems and are willing to equip them with television

facilities and will rent them out on an annual rental fee basis. This is what the C.B.C. have been doing so far; but we do, as I say, have a microwave system in the north now.
Many of the people also believe that the obligation of the crown corporation is to serve areas where private enterprise does not seem too interested to come in. Some feel that the C.B.C. must have the lucrative areas. There are two schools of thought. Personally, I think the C.B.C. should give more attention to servicing the areas which private enterprise has not shown a great deal of interest in and possibly make a further change in their plans in the lucrative areas. I say this, because section 8 of the Canadian Broadcasting Act says:
The corporation shall carry on a national broadcasting service within Canada and for that purpose may:
(a)	maintain and operate broadcasting stations;
(b)	establish, subject to approval of the governor in council, such stations as the corporation may from time to time consider necessary to give effect to the provisions of this act.
I say that subparagraph (b) relates to the first part. It says that the corporation shall carry on a national broadcasting service within Canada. It is my feeling that in order to carry on adequately a national broadcasting service, those areas that private enterprise have not shown too much interest to go into should be given full and possibly even first consideration.
We come now to the matter of private enterprise in our area. I might say that their activities have been very welcome as far as most of us are concerned but at the present time I think they are adding a certain amount of confusion to the issue. In talking about private enterprise I should like to start by saying that a year ago apparently there was no interest on the part of private enterprise in going into the area. However, times have changed.
A little over a year ago a firm named Northwest Electronics Limited came into the area and tried to interest people in the installation by the firm of a low power relay system. These people went to Flin Flon but were not able to do too much there. They had a promotional idea involving the setting up of the equipment and turning it over to a community organization. The idea did not take fire at all. I could not see it myself because it was too much of a promotional venture.
However, just before the last provincial election this firm made a deal of some kind with the former Manitoba government under which the company would endeavour to put television into the Dauphin area and if they were successful they were going to go into
Television
Churchill to try to interest people there. Perhaps I might refer to an editorial in the Winnipeg Tribune of February 26, 1959 dealing with the activities of this company. The editorial reads as follows:
Manitoba is now paying $15,000 for one of the last minute ejection follies of the Campbell government. As an inducement to the people of northern Manitoba to vote for Liberal candidates, the former government promised to extend television into the north.
An arrangement was made with a private firm to test a system of relay towers to Dauphin, an arrangement so hurried that it was not even recorded in a regular contract, only in a letter by the former minister of industry and commerce. The test has ended in failure. But according to the terms of the letter, the province committed itself to pay the company $15,000 even if the system proved unworkable.
The present government considers itself morally bound to pay this amount. This is a proper recognition that a government must honour even the hasty and unwise commitments of its predecessor. But from the fiasco Manitoba can learn a lesson. Television is a federal matter, not a provincial responsibility. If television can be taken into northern Manitoba, the C.B.C. should take it there, not the province.
The announcement that this attempt had failed, which was made only about four weeks ago, brought about further interest on the part of private enterprise in this area. The first interest noted came from the station in Yorkton, Saskatchewan, which announced that it was going to apply for a licence to construct a satellite station in the Duck mountains to service the Swan River and Dauphin area. Then there was an announcement by the operators of the Brandon television station who said that they were going to apply for permission to build four television stations, one at Dauphin, one at Swan River, one at The Pas and one at Flin Flon if the C.B.C. would agree to pay the annual rental charges of a microwave system to that area. Later the radio station at Flin Flon made an announcement which clarified the policy of that station definitely for the people of that area.
As I said before, all these things are of tremendous interest to us but I think that with them all coming at one time they are creating a certain amount of confusion and I should like to suggest a way to clear up the confusion. To bring out the point I want to make I should like to refer to a news item in the Dauphin Herald of March 12. It reads as follows:
Dauphin town council went on record Monday night with a resolution urging the board of broadcast governors to expedite the processing of applications for establishment of television broadcasting facilties in the Dauphin area and northern Manitoba. The council's resolution read in full:
"It being understood that several applications have been made or will be made for the establishment of television broadcasting facilities in Dauphin and other points in northern Manitoba, be it resolved that the council of the town of Dauphin

Television
request that these several applications be dealt with by the board of broadcast governors as quickly as possible in order to provide to these points in northern Manitoba the best possible T.V. service at the earliest possible date.
The several applications include the application from Yorkton to establish a satellite station and the application from Brandon to establish four stations if the C.B.C. will pay the microwave charges. Then there was the announcement by the Arctic Radio Corporation Limited which owns the radio station at Flin Flon in these words:
The Arctic Radio Corporation Limited, which owns and operates radio station CFAR, Flin Flon, believes that the residents of the area it presently serves by radio are entitled to the same quality and standards of television programs as those enjoyed by the majority of Canadians elsewhere.
The Arctic Radio Corporation believes that it should now be apparent to all concerned that this standard can be achieved only through the extension of the C.B.C. microwave network into the area. If the C.B.C. undertakes to furnish network service to the area the Arctic Radio Corporation is prepared to discuss with the proper authorities the establishment of television broadcasting facilities in the area.
The Arctic Radio Corporation will not, however, participate in or support any scheme or proposal which would result in bringing to the people of Flin Flon and area television programs below the standard and quality of those enjoyed by the majority of Canadians elsewhere.
That is the situation with respect to private enterprise wanting to go into the area to operate stations. I say that it may be causing a bit of confusion because here we have town councils suggesting that the board of broadcast governors expedite these licences and get things cracking as quickly as possible. I believe that the most important thing at the present time is to get a commitment from the C.B.C. with respect to whether they will pay the microwave charges involved in bringing television into the area. If licences are given to this operator or that operator we are only going to confuse the issue a great deal more because some of them are willing to operate satellite stations and others will only come into the area if the C.B.C. will provide the microwave facilities.
I realize that my time is getting short, Mr. Speaker, but I should like to emphasize that a favourable decision from the C.B.C. in the very near future would clarify this point and would also make the situation much more satisfactory to the individual station operators who are anxious to go into the area.
May I say that even in the days of radio the area of northern Manitoba was sadly neglected. Even today, there is no broadcast line in Manitoba north of Brandon. We have to rely on the C.B.C. regional station at Watrous, Saskatchewan, and that is not very satisfactory for a great many areas. There are many areas in northern Manitoba that cannot
[Mr. Simp-on. 1
even pick up these regional broadcasts, so I think the C.B.C. has had a very light financial burden so far as the northern Manitoba area is concerned.
Last year at my request a survey was made to ascertain the approximate cost to the C.B.C. of putting television into the area about which I am talking. Although the C.B.C. has not made these figures public I have, as a result of talking to various people in the Manitoba telephone system, which also put in quotations on the cost, and as a result of talking to people in the C.B.C., learned that quite a large sum may be involved. I should like to briefly discuss what it might possibly cost to do this. I have reason to believe that the annual rental charges for the microwave relays necessary to serve the area north of Flin Flon could amount to about $300,000 a year. Now, if the C.B.C. were to look after the whole program, including outlet stations, it has been calculated that it might cost $1 million extra to construct these outlet stations. If this amount were written off over a period of 10 years, that would add another $100,000 a year to the annual cost. We would then have an annual rental of $400,000 to service this area. I do not know how close these figures are to the C.B.C. estimate, but I feel they are somewhere in the neighbourhood of the C.B.C. figures.
This may seem like a large sum, but let me remind hon. members of the extreme interest of the people in this area. I might say, truthfully, that the people who have television now cannot see why people should be so interested in obtaining it. However, I should like to know how great the hue and cry would be if the C.B.C. said they were not able to carry the Grey cup game because it cost too much or perhaps the world series or the Saturday night hockey games. I am sure we would hear a great hue and cry from the people of the populated areas of Canada. They would say, it does not matter how much it costs, we want it. I would not be too surprised if they got it.
I do not believe we should feel that $400,000 annually is too great a sum. Let us break that down. I asked the C.B.C. what formula they used in deciding whether or not an area should be serviced. They said they had a formula but they did not make it public. This is quite all right. However, I find that in a bulletin issued by the Canadian broadcasting league reference is made to the fact that the cost for C.B.C. television is 3.3 cents per household per day. If you work that out on a yearly basis it means a cost per household of roughly $12.04 for the present C.B.C. television service. If television services were

provided for the Churchill constituency they would serve, including the area around Dauphin, around 30,000 households at an annual cost of $400,000. If these figures are correct it would mean the cost per household would be $14.28 as against the present cost of $12.04 for the rest of Canada.
However, I do not think we should become alarmed at that. I make this statement for two reasons. What kind of formula is it that permits the C.B.C. to say that if the costs of service run to more than $12.04 per household they cannot service that area or they must give some other area consideration? What kind of formula is it that permits the C.B.C. to say to the people of the north, who are not getting television service, that they cannot get it because the costs per household are too high? These people are told they cannot get it, but still they are paying for it. What basis, then, have we for using that formula?
The most recent figures which have been published concerning the average wages received in the various areas of Canada indicate that the towns of The Pas and Flin Flon contain wage earners who have the highest average in the Dominion of Canada. I would assume, therefore, that they are paying the highest taxes. We come back, then, to the formula which shows that the costs of servicing this area are higher than the costs for the rest of Canada and the C.B.C. says, although you do not get it you still have to pay for it.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at 8 p.m.
Robert Simpson: Mr. Speaker, when the house rose at six o'clock I was discussing the possible cost of the bringing of television by the C.B.C. into the northern part of Manitoba. In my brief closing remarks I would like to point out to the house, and bring to the attention not only of the members of this house but possibly of the board of broadcast governors, that this possible cost of $400,000 annually should not be regarded as exorbitant or too costly. I am informed by the C.B.C. that if anyone were to make application to operate a television station in Manitoba with the kinerecordings which would be supplied by the C.B.C. they would recommend that a licence be granted, and that kinerecordings alone would cost the C.B.C. in the neighbourhood of $150,000 a year. If two operators wanted that service-and we would need more than one station in that
Television
area-the cost would amount to $300,000; so we must not consider the sum of $400,000 as being in any way out of the question.
In the brief moments I have left I would like to thank some of the people in northern Manitoba who have been so very kind in giving their time and efforts to assist in bringing this matter to the attention of the C.B.C. I would like to thank Mr. Jim Leggett of Swan River and the various town councils and chambers of commerce; the Flin Flon Miner and the Flin Flon Daily Reminder; the Northern Mail of The Pas; the Swan River Star and Times. I would also like to thank radio station CFAR of Flin Flon for keeping the people in that area well informed as to what the situation is in regard to television in the area and the policy of that station. I would also like to say once again that the people of the area are very gratified at the interest presently being shown by private entreprise in applying for stations. But I did mention that it was adding a little confusion, and I think I am right. I would therefore recommend that the C.B.C. decide as quickly as possible if they will pay the annual rental charges of a microwave system. Then the board of broadcast governors should decide which of these applicants has the most satisfactory qualifications to operate stations, and get the job done as quickly as possible.
(Translation):


Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, the few remarks I wish to make at this stage, in support of the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Churchill (Mr. Simpson), will be very brief. The resolution reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should give early consideration to the advisability of suggesting the installation of a television service by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for the populated areas of the constituency of Churchill.
In his plea in favour of his constituents, the hon. member pointed out the importance of his resolution and the interest which it has for the area he represents. He also expressed the wish of the people of his constituency in regard to a television service, such as the whole people of Canada are entitled to have. He also mentioned that such facilities could serve a population of about 45,000 in his constituency, or approximately 30,000 homes in the area. He also referred to the numerous requests, letters and articles published in local newspapers in favour of such a measure.
Mr. Speaker, I represent a constituency where television facilities are also completely lacking. I am therefore in a position to

Television
sympathize with the hon. member tor Churchill, and I recognize the merit of his request.
Indeed, in northeastern New Brunswick and in two constituencies of Gaspesia, a population of over 240,000 is deprived of all television facilities. Among that population, more than 165,000 French speaking Canadians would like to get their share of such a service, through the medium of the C.B.C. French network.
That is why, Mr. Speaker, I am entirely in favour of the resolution. I am certain that the voters in my riding, as well as those of the constituencies of Northumberland-Mira-michi, Restigouche-Madawaska, Bonaventure and Gaspe, would be most interested in getting from the C.B.C. the share of service to which they are entitled. The people in my riding are contributing their share in taxes and therefore, like those in other areas, are paying part of the cost of the C.B.C.
I hope, Mr. Speaker, that when the board of governors of the C.B.C. studies the request of the hon. member for Churchill, it will also favourably consider the wishes of the people in my riding who have sent him a great many requests and letters, as well as to the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Nowlan).
(Text):


Mr. G. E. Halpenny (London):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the terms of the motion of my very good friend, the hon. member for Churchill (Mr. Simpson), which is before this house will meet with the sympathy of all hon. members on both sides of this house. The importance of the welfare and general happiness of those Canadians who live far from metropolitan areas, especially the people who live in areas similar to those represented by the hon. members for Churchill and Dauphin, is a matter of real concern to the government and to broadcasters. In spite of what some of us may think of it, television with its tremendous capacity for entertainment, information and education can do much to relieve the isolation of the north and provide a living link with the great metropolitan centres, indeed with the whole world. In fact, a good case can be made for providing television to the more remote areas-because of the peculiar advantages it offers. In urban and rural areas particularly, these advantages are often available from several other sources; but in the north television may be the only source of any one or all of them. In such amount of homework I have been able to do on this subject, I have contacted and talked with members of the C.A.R.T.B. and with the

C.B.C. As you know, the C.A.R.T.B. are the private broadcasters. I discussed the question of extending television as quickly as possible to those areas of low population density which do not enjoy television service.
To better understand the present situation it might be well if I briefly reviewed the development of television since it first came to Canada in September, 1952. In 1951 the report of the royal commission-that is the Massey commission-recommended that Canada should have a national television service similar to the national radio system. Specifically it said that the C.B.C. should go ahead with plans to provide national coverage and to produce a program in both French and English. Another suggestion made by the commission was that private stations be required to serve as outlets for national programs. This followed the pattern already established in radio.
In 1952 the former government announced that only the C.B.C. would be allowed to build and operate television stations in the six largest cities of Canada, with each station representing a major geographical division of our country. The then government also announced that applications would be received from private stations to serve areas outside those covered by the C.B.C. transmitters. The intention was that the C.B.C. transmitters would serve as a framework or skeleton for a national television service with production centres in most regions. This would give the national service, made up of independent stations and C.B.C., the chance to reflect the regional as well as the national characteristics of Canada. It would also give opportunities to artists, performers and writers in each region.
Since September 1952 between 85 and 90 per cent of Canadians have been brought within range of a Canadian television station at reasonable cost. This compares very favourably with the United States which have had television for a few years longer than we, and yet reach proportionately fewer of their citizens than we do in Canada. The fact that approximately 90 per cent of Canadians now receive television signals is a creditable achievement in view of the size of our country and its low population density. In fact, I do not know of any other country in the world where the growth of television coverage has been quicker. And let us not underestimate the strain on our resources necessary to build this service. Communication has been one of our major preoccupations since confederation, and each new development in technology throws up new challenges to our ingenuity and financial resources.

It fell upon our national system as the instrument for carrying out a broadcasting service to provide a television service in areas which, because of low population density, were not sufficiently attractive to private station operators. The corporation had already gone through a similar experience in providing radio service through the development of the low power relay transmitter. There are now nearly 60 of these located in communities where no other reliable broadcast service is available. I understand the corporation decided some time ago that a similar device might provide a solution in extending television coverage.
In making plans to provide television service to small remote communities it would appear that the C.B.C. applied the same standards that it had devised when the radio service was under development. These standards or criteria were intended to keep planning within practical limits and to ensure that public funds were spent where the most people would benefit.
Where an expensive service is provided through public moneys it is always difficult to know when to stop extending the service to reach more of the people who contribute the funds. Theoretically, because all Canadians contribute to the national television system they are all entitled to roughly the same service. In practice it is not possible to treat everyone in exactly the same way, and the expense of bringing service to all parts of the country is prohibitive and unjustified. This is not new in a sparsely settled country like ours. The provision of public services such as railways, highways, schools and hospitals cannot come at the same time everywhere because the costs may be out of proportion to the number of citizens who benefit. Generally speaking, the more costly the installation, the larger the population must be to justify the extension of the services.
I will briefly outline some of the factors that influence the planning on extending television service to remote areas. I understand that in order to qualify for consideration the population of a town or village should exceed an established minimum. The C.B.C., for instance, would not operate a station in an area covered by an existing or proposed private station. Second, a broadcast channel assigned under international agreement would have to be available in the area. Third, a thorough study of each area to be served would be needed to find the most economic way and most effective transmitters to serve them.
Then further, close study would be given as to how best a signal could be sent to the
66968-9-137
Television
transmitter, whether by (a) network connection, (b) off-air pick-up from another transmitter, or (c) television recordings. It would also be necessary to calculate the annual operating costs, including amortization, per television home served, so that we would know the per unit cost of serving each home. Finally, other things being equal, I understand the corporation believes that the transmitter which offered the lowest unit cost service should be installed first.
Now to get down to cases, I am informed that the capital cost of building transmitters at four of the more populated areas in the Churchill and Dauphin constituencies would be approximately $1 million. The annual operating costs, including the rental charges on a microwave connection from the main transcontinental microwave system, would be approximately-and here I disagree with the hon. member for Churchill-$450,000 per year. If the stations were to be serviced by television film the operating costs would be about $600,000 per year. There are, according to the best estimates, about 40,000 homes in the area that would be served by the requested four transmitters.
On this basis the capital and operating costs per thousand homes served comes rather high and I do not feel that any private broadcaster would take a chance faced by these extravagant costs. I think he would be very unwise to set up a private station in these areas. Then we must take into consideration the fact that there are 40 or 50 locations in Canada which are similar to those about which the hon. member for Churchill was speaking. Simple multiplication will show what the ultimate cost to the public treasury will be if we are to make television available in the homes of perhaps 40 or 50 such communities.
In 1956 the corporation submitted to the royal commission on broadcasting, as will be found on page 220 of the Fowler report, a capital program for covering areas not then receiving a television service. This capital program was for a period of seven years and provided for the progressive extension of coverage as well as for other developments in the television and radio field. I am also informed that plans for a further revision of coverage will be reflected in a five-year capital program to be submitted to the government by November of this year. This is done in conformity with section 35 of the Broadcasting Act. Therefore, provided that this parliament approves the corporation's program, we can expect a progressive extension of television service to many remote

Division
areas over the next tew years. When coverage of the populated areas of the constituencies of Churchill and Dauphin can be brought into being should depend, in fairness to the other 40 or 50 similar areas, on the comparative per unit cost of such service.
I feel sure that the hon. member for Churchill will agree with me that this government is aware of the obligation to bring national television service to every Canadian home where it is practical to do so. However, as I have pointed out, there are many formidable obstacles both technical and financial in the way of the accomplishment of this objective at the present time. With new technical developments and a carefully planned scheme for extending television service it is hoped that we can duplicate and perhaps even improve the enviable record we have for radio coverage in this enormous country where 96 per cent of our people are presently served by our radio system, both private stations and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Certainly we lack neither the will nor the know-how and as the money becomes available the television service will reach out to bring to our more isolated communities, such as Dawson, Swan River, The Pas and Flin Flon the very great benefits it can offer; thus, we hope, binding them more closely together with the millions of other Canadians who now receive the service through both public and private stations.
I realize that this subject is one that could occupy us for many hours and I know that many hon. members would like to speak on this question particularly with a view to outlining the needs of some part of their riding. I therefore move, seconded by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. Morton):
That the debate on the proposed resolution of the hon. member for Churchill (Mr. Simpson) standing on the order paper as No. 4 under Notices of Motion be now adjourned.


Mr. Regier:: What a misuse of parliament.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question before he sits down? Does the hon. member not agree that we should have an opportunity to vote on this resolution in favour of which he has just spoken?


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Harold Edward Winch: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should give consideration to the advisability of recognizing the government of the Chinese People's Republic.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I rather think the debate this afternoon in which most interesting facts were presented about the boy scouts, sea scouts and girl guides has rather cut into the time available to discuss the present motion. We in this group feel that this is a motion of interest to all members of the house and of importance to all the people of Canada. We in this group fully recognize that in introducing this motion certain basic aspects and fundamentals should be laid down. We feel strongly that it is necessary for all of us in North America to achieve a full understanding of Asia in general and China in particular.
When countries like China are discussed all we hear from a great many is talk about communism. The communists are definitely wrong in expecting the whole world to go communist but if we are to be realistic then I feel sure we will have to give up some of our own vain hopes. I have no hesitation whatsoever in saying that if we believe in what we say about freedom and tolerance we shall have to stop insisting that eastern nations conform in all particulars to the western pattern or submit to what I might term western tutelage.
Everyone in the house knows and appreciates the fact that communist ideology is different from our own, and we are certainly entitled to differ. But, Mr. Speaker, I think we can ask by what logic does it follow that we should close our eyes to the facts of Chinese progress or refuse to shake hands with other people because of a differing political belief? I think we should also note that to the oriental mind the withholding of diplomatic recognition is an insult, and they are a proud people.
We in this group say without hesitation that strong efforts must be made to break through the present stalemate and find ways of living in peace with nations of different ideologies. Of course, when we tackle the problem of recognition in that manner there are those who try to make us believe that the present government of mainland China is not going to stay in power. It was, therefore, with a great deal of interest that I read reports about four members of the Ontario bar association who last fall spent a number of weeks in China. On their return one of them said in a major speech in Toronto not so long ago that nowhere did they get any suggestion or even a hint that the present regime in Peking is temporary or that it lacks popular support. It was stated that all the 66968-9-1374
External Affairs
evidence which came to their attention was, as a matter of fact, to the contrary.
If we are going to be realistic, Mr. Speaker, and surely we must be realistic, I think it must be understood that in the past decade the Chinese people have been engaged in a tremendous struggle to achieve national salvation and to emerge from centuries of abject poverty and cruel oppression. We in Canada, we in the House of Commons, may not be too happy about the methods that have been used, but all will agree, except those who are mentally blind or fanatics, that startling changes have taken place in that country.
There can be no question whatsoever that China portrays an almost overpowering picture of a nation making history with great speed, and whether or not we like it China is going to be a great power. It has a huge population, it is richly endowed with natural resources spread over an area as large as our own country, and I think it is acknowledged by nearly all that in the not too distant future China will be a highly industrialized nation. What all this means to Canada and our own future is something to which we are obliged to give serious thought. It is because we in this group along with a great many other people in Canada believe that Canada has to give very serious thought to what is taking place in that part of Asia that we have introduced the motion now before the house.
When we want to discuss the recognition of the People's Republic of China of necessity we hear objections from some sources. It is a matter of record that, to a great extent, the objections come from the other side of the line. It was significant that only the other day we had a visit from a well known individual in the United States, by name Walter S. Robertson, the assistant secretary of state for far eastern affairs.
It was interesting also to note that Mr. Charles Lynch, writing in the Ottawa Citizen, referred to Mr. Robertson as, "Mr. China Policy" in the state department. In this article Mr. Lynch referred to the views expressed by Mr. Robertson and stated that Mr. Robertson was here for one reason and that was to try to counteract the good reports that had been brought back to this country by some of our well known people who had visited China and, perhaps indirectly, to let the government of Canada know what the views of the government of the United States were.
I should like to deal very briefly with a couple of Mr. Robertson's objections as they were reported in the Ottawa Citizen, because they should be answered. I note that not only did Mr. Robertson stress objection to

External Affairs
China so far as diplomatic recognition was concerned, but he also had views with regard to that country being seated in the United Nations. I should like to quote from this article:
"Nor should red China be seated at the United Nations", Mr. Robertson said, "because it is not a peace-loving nation and frequently has repudiated its international obligations."
We say, Mr. Speaker, that if we should not recognize China because it is not a peace-loving nation nor should it be in the United Nations because it is not a peace-loving nation, then the question is why should the United States sit with those in the United Nations whom they are consistently stating and challenging as not being peace-loving nations? It does not seem possible for them to have it both ways. They ask us to take it one way for their own particular purposes.
Mr. Robertson is also quoted as saying that the Peiping Red China regime was imposed by force. May we point out that the United States and Canada sit in the United Nations with a number of other nations that achieved their government by force. We think it is only reasonable to ask, in considering this motion, why it is right to sit with nations who obtained their position by force, and yet at the same time say we will not sit with Red China under similar circumstances. This same gentleman goes on to say that United States policy is to strengthen and keep alive the non-communist Chinese government. Are we to refrain from diplomatic recognition of a government responsible for 650 million or 700 million people on the Chinese mainland which has been in power now for about 10 years because it is United States policy to strengthen and keep alive the non-communist Chinese government?
Just where may that government be? There can be only one place to which that refers and that is Formosa and the government of Chiang Kai-shek. Certainly, it seems ridiculous to think Chiang Kai-shek is the Chinese government or has any hope this side of heaven or hades of ever becoming the head of the Chinese government. Reasonable and practical persons everywhere admit that it is impossibility. I think, instead of listening or even thinking of following the arguments set forth for nonrecognition, we might be wiser in Canada to pay attention to some of the statements of our own people. I could take a considerable time in setting forth those statements, but I shall not do so because of the shortness of the time allotted for this debate. However, there are two statements that I believe should be mentioned.
[Mr. Winch.1
I do not think anyone is going to call James Muir, the president of the Royal Bank of Canada, a communist. I do not think anyone is going to challenge a man of his position on the ground he does not know what he is talking about after he makes a personal visit and a personal examination. He is quoted as saying in Montreal on February 11:
The Chinese communists want to trade with Canada, says James Muir, president of the Royal Bank of Canada. "But I think our government is asleep."
Mr. Muir, who toured China last summer, said last night Canada could trade with China without officially recognizing the government there, though "we'll have to recognize them sooner or later anyway".
I think it is better soon than later. There is one man from British Columbia upon Whom I know we can safely rely. He is one of the greatest educationists in our Dominion of Canada. I am referring to Dr. N. A. M. MacKenzie of Vancouver, who is not only president of the University of British Columbia but is president of the Canadian national commission for UNESCO. Speaking in Montreal as late as March 12 he said that greater understanding must be promoted between the west and the Orient to prevent war. I quote from this press clipping:
He told a press conference the starving, overpopulated Orient looks with hungry eyes to Canada and other western countries where food and land are plentiful.
"They (Oriental countries) will not put up with this situation permanently," he said. "And the alternative to greater understanding is eventual violence."
Words such as these, coming from the president of one of our great universities and the president of the Canadian national commission for UNESCO, are words to which we in this group believe we should give very careful consideration. We believe that it is in the best interests of Canada that we should not blindly follow in the footsteps nor obey the dictates of another country with respect to this matter. I am sorry to say it, but it is my own belief that if the United States were to recognize China tomorrow, this government would automatically do so. It is quite obvious that they are blindly following United States policy, a policy which our people-I mean men such as Mr. Muir and Dr. MacKenzie-say is a wrong one and could lead to violence and war.
In the past we have heard some arguments put forward by the present government as to why Canada has not yet made any move toward the recognition of the Peiping government. We remember a statement made last year by the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefen-baker) that the Chinese government would have to expiate its crimes. This leads me

to another phase of this question of recognition of the People's Republic of China. Surely, much as we pride ourselves as Canadians on being freedom living and tolerant, there is not one of us who thinks that we stand alone in that position. Surely, it is a reasonable approach to examine the position of the many other countries in the world.
We find that from October 2, 1949 to December 3, 1958 thirty-eight countries have recognized the People's Republic of China. I have the list here of those 38 countries. I am not going to take up the time of the house by reading them out, but you can be assured, Mr. Speaker, that the majority of those 38 countries which recognized the People's Republic of China are not communist nor countries of dictatorship; they are countries of democracy. They are freedom loving and peace loving peoples, the same as we here in Canada. Yet as I point out, 38 of them have recognized the Peiping government from October 2, 1949 to December 3, 1958.
I know there are those who would like this matter to be brought a little closer to home, so I would like to do that. We are all proud that this country is a member of the commonwealth, and I know that the Prime Minister takes particular pride in that fact. He did a great deal of travelling around the commonwealth on a recent trip. He never misses an opportunity to speak about the commonwealth and build for himself the name which he likes, which was put up on him by a member of the press, that of "Mr. Commonwealth". There are ten members in the commonwealth, and of those ten members five recognize the Peiping government. Those five are the United Kingdom, India, Pakistan, Ceylon and Ghana. Surely, the Prime Minister and his government, and every Conservative and Liberal, will say that the United Kingdom is a peace loving nation, a freedom loving nation, a democratic nation, and that the United Kingdom would do nothing that would lead to a building up of communism or a building toward war or aggression of any kind. Yet we find that the United Kingdom and four other commonwealth countries have recognized the Peiping government. So we ask, why is it that this present government up till now has tied itself to United States foreign policy, and not to that of five of the brother nations of the commonwealth?
Of course, there are others who are keenly interested in peace and are definitely anticommunist outside of our commonwealth itself as an organization, and that group is NATO. And Canada is a part of NATO. There is an organization which has been established by democratic and peace loving countries, and established definitely for the purpose of opposing communist aggression. Yet on going
External Affairs
over the list I find that of the NATO members four recognize the Peiping government. They are the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway. I have already spoken of the United Kingdom; and I do not believe it is necessary to go into detail to emphasize that, as far as democratic fighters and believers in freedom are concerned, there are none better to be found than in the Netherlands, Denmark and in Norway. So we find both in the membership of our own commonwealth and in the membership of NATO those countries included in the 38 I have mentioned who have recognized the Chinese republic.
We know, from listening to government speakers and others over a long period of time that they are opposed to communism. We are not alone in that. All parties in this house would unfalteringly reject the precepts of communism. One of the arguments which we have heard put forward as to why we should not recognize the People's Republic of China is because that country is communistic. Mr. Speaker, that argument is not valid if that is one of the reasons in the thinking and consideration of the government in trying to reach a decision on diplomatic recognition, because there cannot be too great a differentiation in communist countries. I find from the Department of External Affairs, over the personal signature of our late friend who passed away the other day, that Canada recognizes the governments of the following communist bloc countries. I particularly emphasized when I spoke with the late minister of external affairs that I wanted to know the countries which the present Canadian government recognized as communist countries yet gave Canadian diplomatic recognition. The hon. minister said that Canada recognizes the governments of the following communist bloc countries; the U.S.S.R., Albania, Bulgaria, Poland, Roumania and Hungary.
May we pay particular attention to Hungary in view of the fact that we were told by the Prime Minister last year that China had to expiate its crimes before it could be recognized by Canada. In the speeches made in this house in connection with what took place in Hungary, and the condemnation of communism in the U.S.S.R., did Canada say to the Russians or to the Hungarians then in control, "Expiate thy crimes"? No; they recognized Hungary, Roumania, Poland, Bulgaria and the U.S.S.R.
Mr. Speaker, that is the record of recognition of the People's Republic of China by freedom loving countries throughout the world, as well as by dictatorships. There is recognition by half the members of our own commonwealth. There is recognition by certain NATO countries and, as I just pointed

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out, Canada's own position is that being a communist country is no necessary bar to Canadian diplomatic recognition. So from the viewpoint of realism, in view of the fact that we have a country of nearly 700 million people situated on the other side of the Pacific from the west coast of our country, we say in the interests of Canada at this time, a peace loving and reasonable and sensible country, that now is the time for us to extend recognition, and that hand in hand with that recognition we feel sure will come a greater expansion of inter-country trade.
That is something which is most certainly needed at this present time in our country, particularly so in the province of British Columbia. If time permitted I could read statements of the truck loggers' association in British Columbia, boards of trade, trade unions, all expressing their strong opinion that recognition on a diplomatic level would greatly assist in expanding export business from this country.
Mr. Speaker, it had been my intention to speak for almost my full time on this matter, but as you know, sir, I have been boxed in on time and I feel that I would be absolutely derelict in my responsibility if I did not leave time for others on both sides of the house to express their opinions on this matter.
In conclusion, may I say that this motion is moved in all sincerity. It is moved with an understanding of the international situation and in the belief that a great many, if not the majority, of thinking people in this country now believe it is time Canada stood on her own feet in foreign policy matters and ceased to be a satellite of the United States. It is time we faced the facts as they are, and in the interest of Canada now, and in the greater interest of Canada in the future I suggest that this motion deserves not only study but endorsement by all hon. members in this house so that the government, knowing the views of parliament on this matter, may take upon itself responsibility for according early diplomatic recognition to the republic of China.
(Translation):


Mr. Maurice Allard (Sherbrooke):: Mr. Speaker, I take part in this evening's debate, because under present circumstances it is my duty to oppose the passing of the resolution before us. I am surprised, however, that it should have been introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch). Either the hon. member for Vancouver East hardens his heart from one session to the other, or he sets himself to changing his

mind. Though I have not been sitting in this house for long, I noticed that the measures advocated by the hon. member are contradictory in principle. Could it be, on his part and on that of his political group, the last flickering glimmer of a dying flame?
Indeed, during the last session the hon. member for Vancouver East was asking for the abolition of capital punishment in this country, under the pretext that hanging was a remainder of barbaric customs and contrary to the dignity of man in our improved civilization. In fact, as can be seen on page 714 of Hansard of May 30, 1958, the hon. member stated:
I hope . . . that there will be a recognition that it is time in Canada we moved ahead with modern thought, recognizing that the basis of justice and law in our country should not be that of retribution and revenge but should be that of the protection of society at all times-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Before the hon. member gets too far in that direction I wish to remind him that we are not debating the question of the abolition of capital punishment.


Mr. Pallelf:: I think, with respect, that the hon. member may be laying the foundation for an argument. I think that if you allow him to continue you will find that this is directly relevant.


Mr. Speaker:: I should just like to tell the hon. member that I do not think it is relevant to make the argument that the member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) is inconsistent in other matters. The hon. member for Sherbooke may have some other point in view, but I think I should caution him that he is straying from the subject.
(Translation):


Maurice Allard: Mr. Speaker, I now come to the main idea, the substance of this resolution, and say that the representative of Vancouver East is now asking recognition of a government which has applied the worse methods of barbarism and vengeance, and which shamelessly continues to attack the dignity of the human being.
This resolution asks for the recognition of the government of the People's Popular Republic of China. In this connection, there are two schools of thought.
One group of people, generally in favour of recognizing Communist China, put forward the two following arguments: first, the Communists are now in firm and permanent control of the Chinese mainland. Although

the Peking regime is not desirable, it is in power and will continue to be in power for a long time. Little can be done to change this situation. Unless you want to ignore 600 million people, you must deal with this regime.
In the second place, in certain respects, Chinese communism would be different from Soviet communism. Trade and cultural relations between communist China and the free world would perhaps draw Peiping apart from Moscow and convert Mao Tse-Tung into a new Tito.
The second group of people who oppose recognition of the people's government of China thus counters these two arguments:
These two arguments are misleading and similar to the reasons set forth in 1930 to promote relations between the West and Japan, Italy and Germany.
At the time, those who put forward such motives believed that the governments of Japan, Italy and Germany had perfect control over their people and that trade and cultural relations with those countries would convince the latter of the necessity of a brotherly spirit and of peaceful co-existence. The belief was that if sufficient concessions were made, it would help to disrupt the forces of the Rome-Berlin axis.
But you know, Mr. Speaker, what happened; it was the second world war. Scrap metal that the United States had sold to Japan fell back in the form of bombs which devastated nearly half of Asia. Oil delivered to Italy in 1936, under the pretext that trade restrictions curtailed freedom, served to make fuel for Italian planes which played havoc with Ethiopia and helped Mussolini to dream of an empire. Diplomatic relations and negotiations with Germany resulted into the Munich disaster. For years, the Germans kept building up their strength on the general principle that they could be sold non-strategic materials.
The upshot of this short-sighted policy was the brutal death of millions of human beings and the destruction of thousands of cities. This was a historic lesson that cannot now be forgotten and which should serve to guide future behaviour. We must depend on historical facts rather than on wishful thinking.
It is a mistake to believe that the Peiping regime is in full control of the Chinese continent. According to reports, students have staged many demonstrations against the communist regime and refugees keep pouring into Hong Kong. May I point out also the State-
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ment of the Chinese Minister of Justice, Shih Liang, that in the space of no more than 17 months, 364,604 counter-revolutionists have been tried in people's courts. It is therefore obvious that things are not going so well in Red China.
Mr. Speaker, Mao Tse-Tung has conquered the country by fire and by the sword and he is staying in power by inhuman and brute force. He has liquidated more than 18 million Chinese within 9 years and, even under his despotism, barely 2 per cent of the continental Chinese are members of the Chinese communist party.
The second argument to the effect that Mao Tse-Tung could become a second Tito is being formally refuted by the constant support Peking has been giving the USSR, when the Russians denounced some of Tito's attitudes. As a matter of fact, we might also recall that Peking approved Russia's action in its brutal intervention in Hungary.
Chinese communism is indeed the same as Soviet communism. Its roots and designs are the same. We only need read the statements of Chinese communist leaders to see that their ambition is associated with Soviet dreams. In 1940, Mao Tse-Tung stated, and I quote:
I am a Marxist anxious to communize China and the world under the leadership of Moscow.
And recently Chou en-lai declared-and I quote again:
The most sacred international responsibility of communists in every land and of all times is to unite the nations in the socialist camp under the leadership of the Soviet Union.
Has the time come for Canada to recognize the government of the People's Republic of China? I do not think so, Mr. Speaker, and for several reasons.
To recognize communist China would be to tell Formosa that we are abandoning it and renouncing this anti-communist fence.
To recognize communist China at this time would be to jeopardize the national independence of those Asian countries which rightly fear communist expansion. These countries need our support to strengthen their independence, and to improve their now wavering political and economic stability.
To recognize communist China at present would be to destroy the hope of millions of Chinese who are repudiating communism and are anxious to recover their freedom.
To recognize communist China would be to increase its international prestige, to pave the way for communist expansion and to bolster its tottering economy. At the present time Red China admits it is facing economic difficulties. It lacks iron, steel, timber, meat, petrol and coal.

External Affairs
To recognize communist China would be to invite the 12 million Chinese living in south-east Asia to surrender to Peking, to place under Chinese control those countries where China exerts a great influence, such as the Philipines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaya, Thailand and Burma. Moreover, Canadian citizens of Chinese descent, through the medium of communist Chinese diplomatic representatives here, would become the target of pressure and blackmail in connection with their relatives living in Red China.
To recognize communist China would also mean to ignore the sacrifices of thousands of Canadian and American soldiers who died in Korea, precisely to check the communist advance.
Then too, recognition of communist China would favour its too early admission into the United Nations and thus leave the Security Council at the mercy of the Soviet, in league with Chinese communists.
From an international standpoint, Peking as early as 1949, repudiated most of its international obligations. Red China violated armistice agreements in Korea and Indochina. It has pressed several Asian countries to revolt and embrace communism. It has never shown any concern for the establishment of peace and international security.
As a Canadian Christian member of parliament, I do not forget the atrocities of which our religious missionaries in China were the victims. Chinese communists, in those circumstances, displayed a disgusting materialism and ignored all sense of human dignity and of spiritual values.
No, Mr. Speaker, in my humble opinion, the time has not yet come to recognize such a regime. No, Mr. Speaker, in my humble opinion, the moment has not yet come to recognize such a government, and that moment should not come before red China mends her ways, before she gives evidence of good faith and consistently acts on behalf of pacification and reasonable humanism.
I believe that if we want to be realistic and practical, all our efforts should tend to strengthen our allies rather than to revive red China's economy. By strengthtening our principles of freedom, and by striving to reinforce the economic and political systems of our friends in Asia, we will be doing something worthwhile and help build a free society against the unquestionable slavery of communism.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer to a statement made on November 1, 1957 by the present Right Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker). I quote from page 654 of Hansard:

There is nothing inconsistent about endeavouring to trade and at the same time not recognizing the government of that country. The attitude of this government is unchanged in that direction, and until such time as the people's government, the communist government of China, expiates its wrongdoing under international law there certainly will be no justification for the granting of recognition as we see it.
Recognition under international law in the past used to be a juridical act, but today the information we have indicates that recognition would be regarded by various countries in Asia which have withstood communism as an act of more than legal recognition and, indeed, would be interpreted as a recognition of communism as such and would afford to those who today resist communism the removal of a major incentive that has impelled them to take their stand firmly against the onrush of communism throughout portions of Asia.
Mr. Speaker, the policy of the present government was certainly laid down on November 1 by the present right hon. Prime Minister. In addition, on February 26, 1958, the former Secretary of State for External Affairs, the hon. Sidney Smith-at this point, Mr. Speaker, may I be allowed a brief digression to express the deep admiration I had for this eminent Canadian whom I had the occasion to meet on fairly intimate terms at the 13th session of the General Assembly of the United Nations in New York. I attended those meetings as a Canadian parliamentary observer, and almost daily, I had the opportunity of benefiting from the knowledge, advice and geniality of the hon. Sidney Smith. So I can understand that his untimely death was a great shock to the right hon. Prime Minister and to all hon. members. For my part, I was deeply grieved, and I deeply regret the passing of such a great Canadian who had begun to earn a world-wide reputation for himself, as a great diplomat and a counselor of high wisdom.
As 1 was saying, the Hon. Sidney Smith, as quoted in Hansard for February 26 at page 1405, again discussed this question and explained the present government's position with regard to recognizing the People's Republic of China:
In view of the lively interest that is shown by the Canadian people in the future of our relations with the Chinese people, I feel sure that the house will expect me on this occasion to discuss in some detail the government's attitude toward the recognition of the government of the Chinese People's Republic.
And the Hon. Sidney Smith, at page 1407 of Hansard, drawing a conclusion to many considerations that were replies to arguments favoring commercial and economic relations with communist China, and which provide a good answer to arguments raised earlier by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch), said:

It is for these reasons that it is the view of this government that we must go carefully. We should take the initiative in limited fields-in fields of trade and in other ways to which I have referred-and we should take every opportunity that presents itself to overcome the causes of discord between the west and Peking China. We must be patient. We should not be hasty. Otherwise we may undo the good work that has already been accomplished in laying the basis for progress toward the goal of removing the occasions for misunderstanding now existing between Canada and communist China.
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Vancouver East emphasized in his speech the considerations that had been raised either before the office or the general assembly of the United Nations Organization. In fact, during the thirteenth session, this important matter was discussed in two distinct places, first before the office, a body whose function is to assist at all times the chairman of the general assembly. In fact that office, before the regular meetings of the general assembly, prepares the agenda by deciding what matters are to be raised and discussed by the Assembly. The agenda submitted for the first meeting of the thirteenth session of the general assembly, brought that very question before the 81 members of the United Nations Organization. It was not a question of discussing the matter on its merits, nor of going into the pros and cons of recognition of the Chinese People's Republic; the issue was whether, during the thirteenth session, the question would be discussed during its sittings. Now the president, Dr. Malik, right at the outset of that sitting of the 13th session, warned delegates of the countries which had to take part in the proceedings that they had to abide by the procedure instead of dealing with the question on its merits, since the issue was merely whether the question was to be discussed. But during the course of the debate some countries started to discuss the recognition of communist China, and Dr. Malik, perhaps to allow various countries which were anxious to make a clean breast of it allowed them to discuss the question at length on its merits. Thus, various countries voiced their opinion on the matter. And a few minutes ago, while listening to the remarks made by the hon. member for Vancouver East, I realized that the gist of his statement was nothing but an echo of the arguments set forth by Mr. Gromyko at the 13th general assembly and of the arguments exploited by communist countries which are Moscow's satellites and by countries which have a sympathetic consideration for Moscow and communist China. It is odd how far the human mind can indulge in distortions and contrive all kinds of formulas and arguments to justify a situation and to reach a conclusion.
External Affairs
Allow me, Mr. Speaker, to review briefly some other arguments which no doubt the hon. member for Vancouver East has forgotten. Bulgaria raises a problem of international law.
Mind you, Mr. Speaker, this is a subtle argument. Apparently, it is the state, as such, and not the government, which answers for the rights and duties toward the country. Now in 1945, when as a result of the treaties of Potsdam, the islands of Taiwan went back to China. They were handed to the Chinese state and not to the Chinese government. If since 1945, the Chinese government has changed, Taiwan still belongs to the Chinese state. According to the Bulgarian concept it would therefore be wrong to claim that Peking is now guilty of aggression by its actions with regard to Taiwan. And if Peiping is not being aggressive, it would represent the Chinese people and deserve to sit as such at the U.N.
According to Rumania, during the same debate, American policy contained a wrong principle, i.e.: What is not convenient for the U.S., is not convenient for the U.N. If Washington were to recognize Peking, it would imply its admission to the United Nations. Now, according to the Rumanian representative, Washington is not recognizing Peking because recognition would endanger American policies in the Far East.
Russia in its turn is afraid that if Peking is kept away, the universal character of the United Nations would be impaired, as the Chinese continent has a population of 600 million people, whereas Chiang Kai-shek only rules over 10 million subjects. The Soviet thesis sees an increase of prestige for the United Nations, if Peking were accepted in this organization.
Another country brought another facet into the argument. Cambodia claims that the Chinese people love their communist government, that they are proud of their new life and their new industrial and economic development.
Such arguments seem almost identical to the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver East.
And Cambodia goes on saying that the Chinese people certainly do not seem to wish ever to return to Chiang Kai-shek's rule.
As far as Burma is concerned, it favours discussion, in the General Assembly, of Peking's admission to the United Nations, in order to avoid war. The United Nations, it says, were created to avoid the meeting of those nations on the battlefields. Now, the position seems so explosive in that area of the Far East, that it becomes urgent to solve it before it is too late.

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Members of the Arab union feel that it is necessary to accept political realities. As far as they are concerned, the only Chinese government is that of Peking.
As for Hungary, it finds ridiculous that Peking should be refused membership in the UNO. It likens the situation to that of medieval Rome which, despite Copernic's protest, decreed that the sun revolves around the earth.
India is wondering why the United States, if they are sure they have good reasons for refusing Peking's admission into the UNO, refuse to state those reasons openly before the General Assembly.
Those are, Mr. Speaker, the arguments in favour of the recognition of communist China by the United Nations, put forward by the countries that agree with the principles of Moscow and of Peking.
Among unfavourable arguments, there are of course those which were put forward by the Formosan delegate sent by Chiang Kai-shek who claims that Formosa now represents the Chinese people in keeping with all the standards of the charter of the United Nations. In fact, we read in the preamble of this charter, and I quote:
We the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war-
The Formosan delegate then stated that only a peaceful state could aspire to the UNO. Now how can the communist regime introduce itself as a peace-making agent after invading Korea and killing there a million human beings? Some countries favourable to Peking claim that the future of peace is at stake. But you do not have the right to barter human freedom under the noble pretext of establishing peace.
The United Kingdom, which, for its part, had already recognized the Peking government in a unilateral and individual way in order to have trade relations with that government, thought that, during that thirteenth session of the General Assembly of the United Nations, the discussion of that controversial problem would have heightened an already too strong international tension.
At that thirteenth session of the General Assembly, the honourable Sidney Smith stated the stand taken by the Canadian government about this important matter. He indicated first that a great difficulty of expression had come up since a miliary intervention was threatening peace in the Taiwan area, and that it would be utopian to study the Chinese problem in the background of what was happening in that strategic area. He thought it was not in order to raise the question of admission or non admission of communist

China in UNO at that time, because international tension, heightened by military events in the Far East, did not constitute a favourable atmosphere for the discussion of such a matter
That is why, Mr. Speaker, the Canadian delegation, at that thirteenth session, rejected the Indian amendment and favoured postponement of the problem.
A vote was then taken, with the following result: 44 countries decided that the question should not be taken up during that thirteenth session; 28 members wanted a debate in the General Assembly and 9 members abstained.
Mr. Speaker, the question had to be well understood, and I believe that the principles put forward on that occasion may as well apply to our country, both from a unilateral and individual standpoint. How can a country like communist China-considering the principles I referred to very rapidly-possibly ask to be admitted to the United Nations? How can it ask Canada, a peace-loving country par excellence, whose friendship is easy, whose heart and mind are understanding, to support Chinese admission after its aggressive and bellicose actions, ever since it has achieved power? How can it ask to be admitted, if it cannot put into practice the principles of the United Nations?
You are no doubt aware, Mr. Speaker, that the United Nations, set up in 1945 by several war-weary nations anxious to strengthen international peace and co-operation across the world, instituted a charter which has four main purposes: first, to maintain peace and ensure international security; second, to promote sincere friendship between members; third, to develop international co-operation in the social, cultural or economic fields; fourth, to create through the United Nations an organization where all common purposes of the various members can be harmonized toward the achievement of those justifiable ends.
Well, Mr. Speaker, how could that country abide by those principles and those views while waging war and displaying a belligerent attitude, both within and outside its borders. A nation cannot shoot its way into the United Nations: admission into that body must be under the benevolent sign of the dove.
Canada, as I said earlier, has a sensitive heart and a level head, and may eventually recognize communist China. However, before such recognition is granted, China will have to show in a sustained, permanent and truthful way that it intends to abide by its international obligations, to treat its citizens as

human beings, to respect the dignity of the human person, to deal with other countries whose co-operation it seeks, not by threats and blackmail, but by peaceful and friendly methods.
I therefore support the statement made by the right hon. Prime Minister on November 1, 1957, when he stated that communist China must atone for its faults and show its good intentions and good faith. Moreover, that statement by the Right Hon. Prime Minister was supported and enlarged upon by a further statement, made by the hon. Sydney Smith, on February 26, 1958. Mr. Speaker, may I say that in my view, those statements were wise, fair and appropriate.
Should the resolution now before us be put to a vote, I would feel compelled to vote against it, for the various reasons I have indicated.
As regards the hon. member for Vancouver East, may I suggest to him that in introducing resolutions in the future, he show more cohesion and co-ordination, unless he wants to deepen our conviction that he intends to remain, to his very death, connected with a political group whose views are at variance with the facts of present day Canadian life.
(Text):


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Maurice Allard: Certainly.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Does the hon. member know that a good number of the candidates of the Progressive Conservative party in British Columbia at the last election publicly advocated and supported recognition of China?
(Translation):


Maurice Allard: Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to answer the question raised by the hon. member. In reply, I would say to him that any good Conservative member of the house should agree with statements made by the right hon. Prime Minister.
(Text) :


Mr. W. G. Dinsdale (Brandon-Souris):: Mr. Speaker, I think it obvious at the outset that any remarks I make will not settle finally the controversial subject propounded in the resolution before the house. It is unfortunate that I have to start at this late hour of the day.


Harold Edward Winch: It was well planned.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: That is the hon. member's interpretation. I can have my interpretation. But I do want to suggest right at the outset that I feel the mover of this resolution has grossly oversimplified the problem. As I
External Affairs
listened to his presentation I noted that it was not the presentation of a reasoned argument but rather quotations from certain authorities who are in favour of the idea of the recognition of Red China. I am sure that we could find equally eminent authorities who take a counter view, if there were time for us to do so.
I should like to introduce this note into the discussion, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) has suggested that the experience of those who have travelled on the mainland of China is to the effect that all is for the best in the best of possible worlds.


Harold Edward Winch: I never did any such thing.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Perhaps I am slightly misinterpreting his statement.


Harold Edward Winch: You mean grossly.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Let me remind the hon. member that I said he was not giving his own opinion but he was quoting the opinions of others. He made reference to such eminent authorities as Mr. James Muir, the president of the Royal Bank, and other authorities of that kind. Now, that is one viewpoint. The viewpoint I should like to put before the hon. member tonight is this: The international communist conspiracy has been rampant in the world ever since the revolutionary events of the year 1917. It has been a subtle conspiracy, yet it has been relentlessly moving forward embracing more and more of humanity. Immediately following world war II we felt the impact of international communism in western Europe. Year by year, one after another, the nations of Europe came under the domination of Moscow until, following the coup d'etat in Prague in 1948, the western nations finally woke up to the realization they were faced with a new manifestation of international communism and they came together in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Since that time there has been no further encroachment, at least in this area of communist expansionism.
Now, it follows, if the theory is accurate that communism does have this international manifestation, that in some area of the world a new expression is being felt. There are those who feel that the outthrust, the upsurge of international communism today is now being felt in the Asiatic countries, in China in the first instance and in the countries bordering so-called Red communist China. This is one through that I wanted to bring before the hon. members in the few moments that are at my disposal here tonight.
There is the other aspect of the problem upon which he relied very heavily in presenting his case. He inferred that the Canadian

External Affairs
viewpoint is determined entirely by the viewpoint of the United States on this problem. In fact, I believe he used the words that Canada is merely a satellite of the United States in this regard. I believe that that statement can be challenged. It is true that Canada, as a neighbouring North American country, follows very closely the leadership of the United States in establishing our foreign policy. It is also equally true that the decision of Canada in reference to this problem, up to the moment, is the result of deliberation and consideration, which are the words used in the resolution, on the part of the government which formerly had the responsibility for conducting affairs in this nation, as well as on the part of the government which at the present moment has the responsibility of guiding the foreign policy of the nation.
I think that the late minister for external affairs put the matter very nicely when he spoke in this house just a few weeks ago and reviewed in a comprehensive way the pros and cons of this issue. Just a week ago, on March 13, I had the privilege of listening to one of the assistant secretaries of state for our neighbour to the south, Mr. Walter Robertson, deal with this very issue of the attitude of the United States toward the recognition of Red China.


Harold Edward Winch: I quoted him, too, to be fair.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes, but you did not quote all aspects of that speech, to be equally fair.
In thanking the speaker on that occasion, the gentleman chosen for that task spoke in very sober tones and said that the effect of the speech by Mr. Robertson was like the impact of a cold shower because in recent days we had tended to lose some of the fundamental perspective on this problem. Mr. Robertson pointed out, for example, that the majority of the free nations of the world still have not recognized the People's Republic of China. Out of the total membership of the free nations only 22 have recognized the Peiping regime, whereas 44 have still failed to give this regime recognition.
Mr. Robertson also drew our attention to the basic difficulty of this very vexing problem, the fate of the Formosan government if the western nations, particularly the United States and Canada, should yield to the impulse to recognize Red China. We have not only one China to contend with in this issue, we have the established government on the island of Formosa. It was the opinion of Mr. Robertson that recognition would undermine the position of the Chiang administration and place the whole cause of freedom and democracy in the Asiatic countries in serious jeopardy.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but it is ten o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.