1958-08-20

[Stage Direction]
Tenth report of standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.-Mr. Fraser.

Mr. H. O. White (Middlesex East):: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the second report of the standing committee on external affairs. I regret the apparent shortage of blue ribbon.


Mr. Winch:: It is a very good colour you have there.



BRIDGES


Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister of Public Works) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. C-56, to authorize the construction of a bridge across Lubec channel between the province of New Brunswick and the state of Maine.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



STARRED QUESTIONS


Mr. Pickersgill: 1.	Were George P. LeBlanc and Alex P. Boudreau dismissed from the Cape Breton Highlands national park effective June 10, 1958?
2.	How long had each of these employees been employed by the national park?
3.	What was the reason for dismissal in each case?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Stand.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisia-Twillin-gate):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether there is any hope of getting this question answered this session.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I have not got the answer to the question, and in the absence of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources I do not think there is anything we can do except have it stand.
Question stands.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Robichaud: 1.	Has Mr. R. K. Smith, since retiring from the chairmanship of the national harbours board, been employed by any government department?
2.	If so, (a) what departments:	(b) in what
capacity; (c) for how long: (d) at what remuneration?
3.	Is he presently employed by the government? If so, in what capacity and at what remuneration?
4.	On what date did he retire from the national harbours board, and what is the amount of his pension?


HANGARS AND AIRPORT BUILDINGS, MONT JOLI, QUEBEC
Mr. Bourgel: 1.	Did the crown assets corporation invite tenders for the demolition or purchase of hangars and airport buildings at the Mont Joli airport?
2.	If so, who submitted tenders and what was the amount of each tender?
3.	Was a contract awarded? If so, to whom, and what are the terms and conditions?
4.	Were any employees of the department dismissed as a result of this action? If so, how many?
5.	Were these facilities being used by civilian aviation companies or the Royal Canadian Air Force?
6.	What provisions have been made to service civilian aircraft at the Mont Joli airport?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 15-Mr. Benidickson:
For a copy of all correspondence since September 1, 1957, between the federal government and the province of Ontario respecting cost sharing of a roads to resources program.
Douglas Scott Harkness: I wonder whether, in the absence of the minister, this motion could stand.


Mr. Benidickson:: Stand.
Motion stands.



CENTRAL MORTGAGE AND HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 35-Mr. Fisher:
For a copy of plans and specifications of the houses within the $5,000-$8,000 range approved by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for building in rural areas and small communities.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I should like to withdraw this motion. The information is not available, and I have been given the
3814	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry assurance that I can have it when it does become available.
Order discharged and motion withdrawn.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to address a question to the genial Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. In view of the press dispatch in this morning's Globe and Mail headed "Ottawa Puzzled As U.S. Names Seaway Lake", would the minister inform the house as to what action our puzzled government intends to take with respect to this puzzling, premature and provocative announcement by the United States board of geographical names?


Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, may I say right away that there is no puzzlement on the part of the government. I thank the hon. member for Kootenay West for giving me notice of this question. The name "St. Lawrence lake" was chosen by the Canadian board of geographical names at its meeting on June 5 last. Then the Canadian board wrote to its United States counterpart, the United States board of geographical names, to seek its concurrence in this appellation. A letter dated August 14 has just been received by our Canadian board of geographical names indicating the United States board's concurrence in Canada's suggestion of "lake St. Lawrence".



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. L. Morris (Halifax):: I should like to ask the Minister of Veterans Affairs whether he is now in a position to make an announcement about the comforts allowance for veterans in veterans hospitals, and especially domiciliary care?


Hon. A. J. Brooks (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: I thank the hon. member for Halifax for giving me notice of this question. I am pleased to inform my hon. friend that the comforts allowance has been increased from $7 to $10 a month, effective from August 1, 1958. This was authorized by order in council 1958-1157 amending section 37 of the veterans treatment regulations.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John MacLean (Winnipeg North Centre):: I rise on a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. On August 12 the under secretary of state, in accordance with an order of this house, tabled the total election expenses on behalf of each candidate by constituency in the general election of March 31, 1958. With regard to the constituency of Winnipeg North Centre, which I represent, my total election expenses were shown in the amount of $10,680. Subsequent to the tabling of this information in the house a Canadian Press report appeared in many of the newspapers in this country carrying this information, and in particular it was published in the Winnipeg Tribune on Thursday, August 14, under the headline "$10,680 to defeat Knowles".
This figure is totally incorrect. My official agent informs me that in accordance with section 63 of the Canada Elections Act he filed a summary of the return of election expenses on behalf of myself with the returning officer for Winnipeg North Centre, which summary of election expenses was published in accordance with subsection 5 of section 63 of the Canada Elections Act, and which shows the total amount of my election expenses for the March 31 general election to be in the amount of $5,409.42. I have informed the under secretary of state of this error, and he is looking into the matter.



CUSTOMS TARIFF

Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance) moved: the third reading of Bill No. C-50, to amend the Customs Tariff.


Mr. Erharl Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: We do not like certain aspects of this bill, Mr. Speaker. It is for this reason I propose to move an amendment to third reading. We realize that today some countries, notably the United States, appear to have surpluses as we do in Canada. We have noted that the western world has gone through similar situations in years gone by. We consistently have in mind the years beginning with 1928, 1929 and all the 1930's. We note that at that time the wealthier, more self-sufficient countries of the world such as the United States and Canada thought the answer to their problem was to raise and to continue raising tariff walls, thereby hoping to provide employment within the borders of their own countries.

Mr. Speaker, we saw how disastrous at that time that policy was. We saw that higher tariffs led to retaliation and to a limitation of world trade. We feel that for the solution to our economic difficulties and in order to provide full employment in Canada we need more and not less international trade. This bill in certain aspects calls for the raising of tariff walls. We feel that the Canadian people at this time should definitely turn their backs on the old and discredited remedy of tariffs. It is for that purpose that I now move, seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch):
That Bill No. C-50 be not now read a third time but that it be referred back to the committee of the whole with instruction that they reconsider tariff item 554b of part IV of schedule A.
That particular part of the act which we feel should be reconsidered by the committee of the whole, or that particular section, calls for a higher tariff on imports of wool into Canada. We feel that the expressions of opinion the Conservative party gave to the Canadian people at election time, namely that it was in favour of increased trade with the commonwealth, could best be exemplified by lowering tariffs on goods coming to us from the United Kingdom. We feel that this is a reversal of the policy enunciated by the Conservative party in raising tariffs against imports from our best customer for many of our important products. We feel that raising tariff on any imports from the United Kingdom at this time will do a great deal of harm to the negotiations that are supposed to take place in Canada this fall-next month, I believe-among the commonwealth nations.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to speak at any length with respect to this amendment. It deals with only one item of the many in the tariff schedule. Our position was very clearly stated in previous stages of the debate. We had a division in the house on this matter at one of the earlier stages. This group is in favour of the amendment.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, this subject has already been discussed on several occasions, and I am sure there is no reason now for an extended debate upon it. I simply rise to deal very briefly with the assertions made by the mover of this amendment, which continue to misrepresent the nature of Bill No. C-50 which is now presented to the house for third reading.
He has said that this bill represents a policy of high tariffs. That statement has no foundation, and to make it is to misrepresent the facts. The house has already been given the facts on several occasions during the course of this session, first on June 17 in the
Customs Tariff
budget speech, next when the resolution upon which the present bill is founded was before the committee of ways and means, and again in the earlier stages of the bill itself. The fact is that with respect to numerous items of the tariff, those with respect to zinc and zinc products, iron and steel and pipes and tubes, what is submitted to the house is a series of items many of which involve increases and many of which involve decreases in the existing tariff rates.
What has been submitted to the house in that respect represents the results of studies conducted by the tariff board on references directed to it by the former administration and recommendations which have the effect of reviewing items which have been in the tariff for many years, some of which have not been reviewed or studied for something like 30 years and which were badly in need of modernization. In the result, the tariff board has made recommendations which modernize the tariff and which rewrite sections and consolidate other sections. Therefore to say that the result of these items now submitted to the house is a return to high tariffs is to misrepresent the facts.
In the second place, this is pictured by the mover of this amendment as a policy of opposition to extended world trade, which is also a misrepresentation of the facts. This government has indicated its deep concern over the enlargement of world trade, and the policies which have been followed by the government and which have been offered to the house have been policies designed to increase Canada's trade. Canada's export trade has in fact increased since this government came to office.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The measure
through which most of the world trade in which Canada is engaged today is carried out is the general agreement on tariffs and trade, and with respect to these items I have mentioned, of which there are a great many in the bill now before us, we have followed to the letter the procedures laid down by GATT. What has been submitted to this house is the result of following the procedures laid down under GATT-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. It appears to me from my reading of the amendment that it refers to the reconsideration of a single clause in the bill of which third reading has now been moved. It therefore seems to me that this general speech on GATT and other matters such as the increase in our exports which is now being given by the Minister of Finance is wholly out of order.

Customs Tariff


Mr. Speaker:: I had the same thought myself, tout the fact that the mover of the amendment dealt with these broader matters before he moved this amendment rather opened the door, and I thought the most expeditious way of dealing with the matter was to allow the minister to speak now rather than to wait until the amendment had been disposed of.
However, it is quite true that we have a specific amendment before us and perhaps it should be disposed of on its own merits.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It was the fact that the mover sought to make some general assertions before he introduced his amendment that led me to make the remarks I did, because his general assertions were a misrepresentation of the facts.
I have pointed out that we have followed strictly the provisions of GATT, and I have pointed out on earlier occasions that in our negotiations with the United States we came back with a package deal and that no increase in United States tariffs, no change in United States tariffs, is involved. The only change is in the Canadian tariffs, some by way of increase and some by way of decrease. As I have pointed out with respect to the recommendations of the tariff board itself, in submitting to the house resolutions based upon them, we have recommended more decreases than increases.


Mr. Speaker:: I hope the minister will not persist in this line, because it is only relevant after the amendment has been disposed of. He will be able to deal again on third reading with the matters he is now discussing.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the final observation made by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam was that this was going to prejudice the forthcoming commonwealth trade and economic conference. There is no foundation whatever for that statement, none whatever. Preparations for that conference are going forward now, and we will certainly do everything that can be done to make that conference effective for its purpose.
Finally, as to the specific item referred to in the amendment, we have discussed that on various occasions already and I am sure nothing useful can be added. We had an extended debate on that specific matter in the committee of ways and means at the resolution stage, and I do not think I can add anything useful to what I said on that occasion. I trust that this amendment, based upon entirely false premises, based upon a misrepresentation of the facts and of the policy of the government, will be soundly defeated.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to say anything on this matter, but the speech made by the minister which deals with so many important matters not relevant to this particular amendment makes it necessary for me to say a few words on the amendment. If I attempted to discuss generally the action the government has taken on tariffs I would, of course, be out of order as the Minister of Finance was out of order.
I will merely refer to page 1247 of Hansard, when in his own budget speech, mentioning the iron and steel duties which are very important elements in the tariff structure, the minister himself said:
A major result of these changes will be to make more effective the protection which it affords to Canadian producers.
Those words speak for themselves.
The minister said that as far as this particular item is concerned it will not prejudice in any way the forthcoming economic conference. I do not know how the minister can tell us that; I do not know on what evidence he can base a statement of that kind in connection with a conference which has not yet taken place and whose agenda we do not know. But if he has taken that position it is diametrically opposed to that taken by the wool exporters of the United Kingdom who, I submit, should be the best judges of their own interest and the best spokesmen with regard to the influence of this action on the forthcoming conference. I have already cited evidence to show that they have strongly objected to this increase in the wool duty and are worried about the effect it will have on the forthcoming conference. If the minister is not worried, they are.
We have opposed this item because it will not do anything effective, as the minister himself has admitted, to help the wool industry of this country.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is not true.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It possibly will give them a fighting chance. I believe those are the words used. That is all. But while it is not designed to give the wool industry an assurance of a profitable life in this country, it is designed to create indignation and uncertainty in the United Kingdom on the eve of this conference.
It is also an item designed to increase the duties against British woollens but not to touch the duties on woollens from countries, apart from the United Kingdom, whose exports of this product to this country are increasing.
As I have said before, Mr. Speaker, this item will not accomplish any good purpose. It will do some harm; it will do little if any

good, and for that reason we have opposed it in previous discussions of the subject, and also for that reason, as my hon. friend from Kenora-Rainy River has pointed out, we will support this amendment.


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, any move by any government generally to increase trade barriers is one that should be opposed. Without question, in spite of the comments of the Minister of Finance, the fact remains that this is a serious increase in tariffs against woollen goods coming to Canada from commonwealth countries.
In taking part in any debate in this house the minister seems to use words which are not very often used by many members in the house, particularly when he himself is short of any real substance for his arguments. He says the speeches that have been delivered, or the speech that was delivered by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam was based on false premises, was a misrepresentation of the facts and so on. It would have been much more in keeping with sound argument for the minister to have dealt with this particular item itself.
This is an increase in the barriers against British woollen goods coming to Canada; this is a return to the policy of former Tory governments of increasing tariffs generally. This move is ill-timed; and for the minister to say that it is without foundation to contend that it will have a damaging effect on the commonwealth conference is to show that the minister has not followed the reaction in the United Kingdom, which was a very strong and very definite reaction against what Canada was doing. It expressed keen disappointment and concern that this would make positive results from the forthcoming economic conference more and more difficult.
While there has not been the kind of progress that we would like to see toward removal of trade barriers over the years, nevertheless since the end of the war there has been a very gradual whittling down of tariff barriers. That has gone on until the present action of this government, and we now see that trend being reversed. We see it being reversed in a very disturbing manner as far as this item is concerned. This is not a general increase in tariffs against every country in the world; it is an anticommonwealth move. This is a move directed against the United Kingdom; and it ill-be-hooves the Conservative party of all parties, I would suggest, to make any such change in tariffs.
This is the true line of the Conservative party; it is the historic line. It means that the Conservative party is reverting to its
Customs Tariff
historic policies and its historic role. But I would suggest that the majority of members of the Conservative party in this house, as well as the members on the opposition side of the house, did not campaign on a policy to increase tariffs, much less to increase tariffs against British goods. I express the hope at this time, Mr. Speaker, that we shall have some independence amongst the Conservative members; that we shall see evidence indicating that at least a few members, perhaps just a handful but at least a handful, will stand up and vote in the interest of lower trade barriers and against a move to increase trade barriers.
If there was one major thing that happened to the Liberal party to bring about its defeat it was the general practice that no matter what the government did, no matter how bad any move the government might make might be, their members always supported the government; there was no independent voice or independent action in their ranks. I express the hope this morning that in the ranks of the Conservative party we shall see some votes in the interest of freer trade and against this return to Tory protection.


Mr. Speaker:: The question is on the main motion. Shall the main motion carry?
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



INCOME TAX ACT

Donald Methuen Fleming: the third reading of Bill No. C-39, to amend the Income Tax Act. (Translation):


Mr. Alexis Caron (Hull):: Mr. Speaker, while the amendments which have been brought forward admittedly contain some ex-
	_	. '_J
cellent features which we can readily approve, I nevertheless wish to rise at this time to say that we are sorry that clause 41 does not allow married women in Quebec to benefit from the proposed legislation.
The matter has been rather thoroughly dealt with during the debate. In fact, an amendment has been made. However, when it is claimed that our Quebec civil code makes it impossible for the matter to be settled, I must express reservations on that score. I know that, if we were to examine our statutes, we would see that they make provision for a great many exceptions. In fact this is the case of approximately half our laws. As we have found, this is a pretty general situation. That is why I claim that, at least in this instance, an exception could have been made in respect of gifts made under the provisions of a marriage contract so that, in so far as Quebec is concerned, such gifts could have been considered for the purposes of the act, as gifts made subsequent to the solemnization of the marriage. However, as the minister objects, and because we sincerely regret that this legislation will be of no advantage whatever to the married women of Quebec-if not to all, at least to the great majority of them-may I merely be allowed, without further elaboration, to go on record once again as opposing the passage of this bill, at least on division.


Mr. Noel Dorion (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, it is, to my mind, impossible even for a moment to question the convictions of the hon. members from the province of Quebec and the motives behind their attitude. The problem just raised by the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron) came up previously at the resolution stage. And if one refers to the official record, it will be seen that hon. members-and in particular, the hon. member for Hull, who today is opposed to the bill because section 41 would put the province of Quebec in a deplorable position-all admitted, some implicitly and others explicitly,-that any change of the provision as drafted might be construed as an intrusion upon the powers specifically attributed to the provinces and especially to the province of Quebec.
Indeed, when the time came for these people to find a legal and constitutional way of by-passing the provisions of the civil code of the province of Quebec, none of them was able to suggest the phraseology for such an amendment.
Mr. Speaker, I said at the resolution stage and I now repeat that the section in its present form does not constitute in any way an injustice for the province of Quebec. It is not discriminatory. Moreover, we are here,

in this parliament of Canada, to legislate for the whole country and we have no mandate to legislate solely for one particular area.
1 apologize for repeating what I have already said, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, to prevent the province of Quebec from taking advantage, as early as next fall, of the provision now under discussion, if it wishes to do so. To that end, the government of the province of Quebec, whose exclusive right it is to amend its own civil code, merely has to act in such a way that advantage may be taken of the provision which has been recognized by all our friends of the opposition as eminently social and capable of safeguarding the security of our homes.
May I be permitted, Mr. Speaker, simply to quote here ...


Alexis Pierre Caron: Would the hon. member allow me a question?


Noël Dorion: Certainly.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Is it not a fact that, in the province of Quebec, lawyers are quite reluctant to tamper with the civil code?


Noël Dorion: That is correct. In fact, the question raised by the hon. member for Hull provides me with a new argument. While lawyers in the province of Quebec are reluctant to amend the civil code, it is suggested that we, the parliament of Canada, be called rpon to do so. What inconsistency! It is an nconsistency dictated by the urges to turn mto a purely political question a matter which should remain above politics!
Everyone agrees in the province of Quebec that the civil code has been for us a means Df survival; it has been a most vital struc-;ure, one within whose framework our racial qroup has been able to develop.
Well, it is now suggested that the parliament of Canada should tamper with it, in ipite of the fact that our lawyers, and in this [DOT]egard our people themselves, are unanimous n their claim that it comes within the exclusive jurisdiction of the province of Quebec, ;hat we alone can amend it whenever we see it, according to our needs and in the sense md spirit which so far have guaranteed its survival.
Mr. Speaker, I would merely like to recall i few remarks made during the discussion of he budget resolutions on July 11. I would *efer hon. members more particularly to hose made by the hon. member for Cartier Mr. Crestohl) who said:
'Text):
I do not think there is any issue between the ipposition and the government on the principle vhich they are attempting to establish.
Income Tax Act
(Translation):
While this was what was being said with regard to a discussion of budget resolutions, it was suggested yesterday that this bill be given a six months' hoist.
(Text):
We are only concerned as to whether or not this principle covers the province of Quebec as clearly and as adequately as it covers the rest of the country.
The presentation by the hon. member for Belle-chasse is quite clear. But even so he suggests, and I say this with great respect, that if the legislature of Quebec would amend article 1265 of the civil code the problem would be solved. Since we do not know what the Quebec legislature will do now, when we are debating this legislation, we might not be giving the benefits which are intended by this legislation to the province of Quebec. I was wondering whether we could not suggest an amendment in some form which would cover the situation.
(Translation):
Consequently, it is clear that the hon. member readily recognized that this problem was one whose solution rested with the province of Quebec. Now, it is precisely because we are here to ensure respect for this spirit of the constitution, and maintenance of provincial responsibilities, that we have refused to play into the hands of hon. gentlemen opposite, whose purpose is counter te the spirit or the letter of the constitution.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Would the hon. member permit another question.


Noël Dorion: Certainly.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the hon. member feel that if my suggestion had been accepted that an exception be made in the case of gifts made under a marriage contract, that if those gifts had been considered at the time as gifts made between husband and wife, it would have affected the constitutional aspect of the problem?


Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, but I do not quite understand what the hon. member means.


Alexis Pierre Caron: If you will allow me Mr. Speaker, I will repeat my question. We are now discussing about gifts as between spouses. When a gift is made through a marriage contract before the marriage takes place, the parties are not spouses under the law. If gifts conveyed by marriage contract were considered as gifts between spouses, would the exemption 1 have suggested constitute any encroachment upon the constitutional rights of the province of Quebec?


An hon. Member:: This is	already
recognized.

Income Tax Act


Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker I am sorry but I am not in the habit of giving off-hand answers to questions of such potential importance as this one. However, on the face of it, I believe it is outside our scope to qualify actions which do not lie within our jurisdiction or consider them under a different legal aspect than the one they actually cover. It would be an intrusion in a field outside our jurisdiction. Anyway, I confess that I do not fully understand the position taken by my good friend from Hull.
If an amendment had been moved we would have been able to consider it, to weigh its intrinsic value and perhaps deal with it but no such amendment was moved. I presume and I have reason to believe that no amendment was moved because it was felt that in venturing to move one, it meant doing something which went beyond the powers of the parliament of Canada.
Mr. Speaker, I would now like to quote the words of the hon. member for Megantic (Mr. Roberge), as taken from page 3 of the translation of the French original in Hansard of July 11, 1958:
Mr. Chairman, I have followed with much interest the statement made by the hon. member for Belle-chasse (Mr. Dorion). I agree with him that the easiest way to reach the desired objective would be to amend the civil code. I also recognize that it is not within the powers of this government to amend the civil code or to ask the government of the province of Quebec to do so.
However, I wonder if there is any other way open to us. I would not like the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) or the government to take my remarks or those of my colleagues as criticisms. We are just endeavouring together to find a compromise so that spouses living in the province of Quebec can also benefit from that $10,000 exemption.
At that time, there was no opposition to the bill but it was proposed yesterday to give it the six months' hoist. At that time, at the resolution stage, our friends opposite were quite ready to approve of the principles of the bill, but yesterday they attempted to delay its adoption.
It is clear that, in the meantime, they told themselves "That might be a good way to embarrass people in the province of Quebec. Why not try it?" And that is what they tried to do. What they were concerned about yesterday was not the interest of the French-Canadian family, or those of the province of Quebec, but what they fancied to be the interests of the Liberal party.

Well, Mr. Speaker, we will soon have an opportunity to meet them in the constituency of Montmagny-L'Islet and to thrash this out. We will then see what people think of this dragging down of sacred principles to the level of political considerations. I am convinced-
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not want to limit the hon. member unnecessarily but it seems to me that he is straying a bit from the confines of this bill. We are debating the third reading of the bill and it is relevant only to discuss matters within the bill.
(Translation):


Mr. Adrien Meunier (Papineau):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to reply-


Noël Dorion: Mr. Speaker, I just wish to sum up.
Firstly, the principle has been definitely and clearly accepted by the opposition.
Secondly, it has been definitely and clearly established that if the province of Quebec wants to benefit from this bill, it is up to her to amend certain provisions of the civil code.
Thirdly, the mere wish to change the meaning of a section of the civil code, directly or indirectly, would actually constitute an infringement upon a field which does not come under the jurisdiction of the federal parliament, upon a field where the province of Quebec is rightly jealous of her rights.
That is why we favour the bill in its present form; in our opinion, section 41 should be adopted in its present form.
Let our hon. friends opposite have no fear; before long, I am fully convinced that the province of Quebec, like all the others, will take advantage of this bill. Besides is it not urgent that we adopt the bill as is? Indeed, it is not only the matter of donation from husband to wife that is involved. There is the donation of the farm from father to son, a time-honoured practice in the province of Quebec, whereby the head of the family, while still in good health, bequeaths the ancestral farm to his son.
In my opinion, delaying the passing of this provision would mean that tomorrow, in most farm homes of the province of Quebec, heads of families and their sons could not take advantage of a measure for which we are indebted today to the present government and for which I also wish to commend and thank the government.


Adrien Meunier: Mr. Speaker, I have followed with a great deal of interest the points made by the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Dorion).
I must say to him, at the outset, that we are by no means opposing the legislation in so far as it provides for an exemption in regard to the setting up of the son on the family acres. Indeed, we all recognize that this measure brought forward at this time by the government is extremely sound and we are all for it.
Now, when the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Dorion) enphasized that parliament had no right to amend the Quebec civil code, we share his views and the federal government cannot legislate in the matter. However, until the situation was clarified, the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron) wanted to submit that payment made by a husband to his wife under their marriage contract when the husband wants his wife to benefit, be considered as a gift. That is what the hon. member for Hull meant.


Noël Dorion: Will the hon. member allow me to ask him a question?


Adrien Meunier: Yes.


Noël Dorion: Does the hon. member know that any donation under a marriage contract may be sometimes considered as a gift in case of death? It all depends on the way the gift is made. Precisely because of the complicated phraseology of a marriage contract, could not the house possibly find some solution in this matter?


Adrien Meunier: I shall answer my hon.
friend right away. I recognize that, in the province of Quebec, a sale or gift between husband and wife is prohibited. But there are exceptions. When, for instance, the husband makes a matrimonial gift to, or confers some benefit upon his wife under the contract, he has the right to draw up a written instrument explaining his motive. There is also the case when the husband pays his wife for reserved assets; if he lists in the contract the reasons for the sale, he is entitled to do so. Those are the three exceptions included in the act and confirmed by jurisprudence.
There ought to have been some amendment under which section 41 would provide that, in the province of Quebec, any gift to the wife in payment of matrimonial advantages or of reserved assets, be exempt.
We all know very well that the federal government has no jurisdiction as far as amendments to the civil code of Quebec are concerned. Along with my hon. friends I feel that the Quebec civil code has ensured
57071-3-242
Income Tax Act
the survival of the province of Quebec. We are proud of that body of legislation which protects the citizens of our province.
What the hon. member for Hull had in mind was that clause 41 should have been amended to ensure that payments made by a husband to his wife under the terms of a marriage contract, as well as whatever is owed in respect of reserved property, be considered as gifts for the purposes of this act.
(Text):


Mr. L. D. Crestohl (Cartier):: Mr. Speaker, there is actually no fine line of demarcation between the two points of view expressed, but I would like to address myself to the point raised by the hon. member for Bellechasse, whose legal opinions I, and all those who live in the province of Quebec, have come to respect. He is perfectly right when he says this is a matter which could be remedied by the legislature of the province of Quebec; that is perfectly clear. There is however, one clear fact, a brutal fact if you like, and that is that we are enacting legislation which does create a prejudice, a prejudice which might be remedied but which might not be remedied. That is the point we are making.
We realize that only the province of Quebec can amend the civil code and rectify what I consider to be and what I have argued is a prejudice. Whether the legislature of Quebec will or will not amend the civil code is something which is not known to us. It is quite possible that the debate which has taken place in this house may draw the attention of the Quebec legislature to this issue and may, as a consequence, provide the remedy. If we had not raised this question it may not have been drawn to the attention of that legislature, which is the authority which can bring about a change in the code. I feel, as a member coming from the province of Quebec, that it was our duty to raise this issue. It is perfectly true that in principle we approve legislation to make possible gifts of this nature, but we felt that unless this step was taken to encourage the finding of a remedy, then a prejudice might remain.
I feel that the hon. members from the province of Quebec have done their duty in raising the issue, and in so doing they have laid their fingers on a prejudice now being created by legislation of the parliament of Canada. That is all we did. Whether a remedy will be found we do not know, but I repeat it was our duty to bring this matter to the attention of the house. I still think if the Minister of Finance had accepted the suggestion which was made, namely that he should address himself to the Supreme Court

Finance-Special Warrants of Canada or to the Department of Justice in order to endeavour to obtain their support of his opinion, then we might have been convinced. He has failed to do this, and we feel that prejudice has been caused, a prejudice which might or might not be remedied.
I appreciate the argument made by the hon. member for Bellechasse, and I hope that perhaps with the help of his colleagues on the other side of the house the matter may be drawn to the attention of the legislative assembly of Quebec in order that the prejudice which the parliament of Canada is now causing to the people of Quebec may be remedied.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, August 19, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Fleming (Eglinton)-Mr. Rea in the chair:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to approve certain expenditures authorized in respect of the fiscal year ended on March 31, 1958. including those provided for by the special warrants issued by the governor general pursuant to orders of the governor in council of August 16, 1957 (P.C. 1957-1111), August 19, 1957	(P.C. 1957-1134) and
February 7, 1958 (P.C. 1958-222), but not including the expenditures authorized by appropriation acts for that fiscal year; and to authorize the application of certain amounts in the accounts of the said fiscal year.
William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, when we were discussing this resolution yesterday I indicated that I felt most hon. members would have the difficulty which I anticipated I would have in making very much of this very long though informative document which was only made available to us within a few hours prior to the presentation of this important resolution. I myself have not had an opportunity to appreciate many of the items that are included in this document, and I feel that the questions which would normally be asked of the minister at this time will probably have to be deferred until we are in committee of the whole on the bill.
I do wish to point out, however, that in the short time in which I have been able to look over the document I have not found much to support the claim which has been made during previous appropriation bills this session, and particularly on December 6, when the Minister of Finance gave the impression that certain reductions along lines which would involve economies and eliminations of extravagance and so on were involved.

I think such an interpretation might be placed upon the minister's remarks last night. He made reference to the fact that certain reductions had been effected in the amounts originally contained in the book of estimates for 1957, and pointed out that $1,270,000 were reductions made in committee of supply last session and that $112,795,000 were reductions effected by order in council.
I just want to indicate to the committee that we cannot anticipate that these reductions are giving effect to economies. I have looked over this document very quickly, as I say, in the short time available to me, with attention to some of the items indicated as involving reductions, and I think every member of this committee will realize that most of these items represent merely deferment of expenditures and that no cancellation or elimination is proposed.
For example, item 797 is one of the largest items. It refers to a reduction of $10 million in respect to wheat and flour being provided to India and Pakistan. I think the committee will realize that there is no cancellation involved here; there is simply a deferment, and the expenditure will occur in a subsequent year. There are other items where the reduction concerns statutory obligations.
I think of item 465; 668 which refers to maritime freight rates, a subsidy given to the railways. If the railways carry a certain quota of freight they are given this public subsidy, and a reduction is claimed there of $1,200,000. Hon. members will realize that this reduction took place simply because the traffic on the railroad was less than was anticipated. Had the traffic equalled the original forecast the amount mentioned in the item would have been expended.
Another item, 197, involves $4,500,000 with respect to our contribution to the provinces in connection with vocational training. I do not think the minister or anyone else would claim there would not have been a desire to make this expenditure if certain provinces had taken advantage of the legislation we have enacted, or that we would not have been happy to have made this expenditure for this purpose.
The big item, is, of course, item 240, a reduction of $32 million with respect to defence. I hope that during the committee stage after second reading of the bill either the Minister of Finance or the Minister of National Defence will at long last give us the details with respect to the items in the large "basket" item which accounts for this claimed reduction. This information was sought when the defence expenditures were considered in part on December 5, but we have not yet been able to get the details

connected with this very large item. I hope we will be able to get a breakdown during the committee stage.
Then we find another large item here, $9 million with respect to the St. Lawrence seaway. This is item 532. I think hon. members will realize that this does not represent the elimination of any expenditure; it is simply a deferment, and when construction proceeds in a subsequent year the item will be picked up. I am not sure what the situation is with respect to item 525, a $7 million reduction with respect to capital advances to the atomic energy commission, but I assume that here again the situation is the same; that construction did not proceed as quickly as was anticipated in the fiscal year and that the amount will be spent in a subsequent fiscal year.
Let us take another large item, $10 million with respect to the Colombo plan. This is item No. 872. I think all members of the committee will remember that there was some pride taken in the fact that there was to be an increase in the amount to be spent in connection with the Colombo plan work, and I ask the minister if it is not a fact that if this $10 million was not spent in the last fiscal year, cheques will be issued in the current fiscal year which will pick up this item of $10 million.
As I say, I have looked at this matter hurriedly, but this appears to be the situation. The minister said on December 6 that certain reductions were taking place, but that none would be in the field of construction or would affect employment. However, when we see the details here we find that a very substantial amount which had been appropriated for the construction of airports was not in fact spent. We find that there was an underexpenditure of some $3 million in public works. The Minister of Public Works is here and he may be able to tell us whether or not this involves deferment or whether these represent cancelled items. In any event they are construction items.
Then we have another item of $2,200,000 with respect to the Veterans Land Act. Again, no one will think for a moment that there was any cancellation of our standing offer to veterans who wish to acquire property. This simply means that toward the end of the year it was realized that applications were not being approved in the number that was anticipated at the beginning of the year, and there was an underspending of $2.2 million. I do not believe the government would really want to have that particular saving.
I think they would have been pleased if satisfactory applications had been received in such numbers that this particular item could have been spent, which would have assisted our veterans.
57071-3-242i
Finance-Special Warrants
Similarly we have reductions claimed for hospital construction for veterans; we have $750,000 with respect to war veterans allowances. I do not think the Minister of Veterans Affairs was trying to be difficult or unjust to veterans in any way, and I do not think he deliberately set out to save $750,000 with respect to veterans allowances. This simply means that toward the end of the year it was realized by him and his officials that, even carrying on with the usual consideration of applications that came in, this particular item would not be spent. Similarly I do not think the Minister of Veterans Affairs would be doing any boasting about the claimed savings of $150,000 with respect to pensions for disabled veterans.
These are the kind of things that are illustrated in this document. From time to time the claim has been made that these savings and deductions in expenditures have been made, and the impression has been created that these amounts would not be subsequently expended in a later year and were in fact cancellations of intended expenditures. I suggest that from these illustrations one will see that a great number were simply deferred items, or items that toward the end of the year anyone could see were going to lapse, and they were simply put in this package of $114 million which is referred to.
I would ask the minister whether he would just make a little clearer to me the meaning of his statement last night which appears at page 3809 of Hansard. He said:
The house is asked to approve 11 transfer items aggregating $110,042,595. The house is not asked to approve the actual expenditure as such.
I have been able to find some of these. I confess I have not been able to find all the items in the document; I have no doubt they are there, but I have not been able to find them. The big item, of course, is old age security.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I can give my hon. friend the list if he wishes.


William Moore Benidickson: Will my hon. friend give us the 11 items?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


William Moore Benidickson: I have found seven.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall be glad to direct my hon. friend's attention to them in the report on supply: on page 7, item 785; on page	11,	item	92;	on	page	16,	item	800;on page	17,	item	690;	on	page	22,	item	803;on page	24,	item	700;	on	page	35,	item	820;on page	43,	item	340;	on	page	56,	item	856;on page	58,	item	480;	on	page	64,	item	526.
These are all the items which involve legislative action, Mr. Chairman, at this point,

Finance-Special Warrants apart from the general approval of the supply which has been appropriated. In all eleven cases these are items which simply involve authorization in a bookkeeping or accounting sense. Five of the items, namely Nos. 92, 690, 340, 480 and 526, are $1 items.


William Moore Benidickson: I think those are the ones I missed; I was looking for larger amounts.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, they are the five $1 items. All other items involve other specific amounts. The three special ones are Nos. 785, 803, and 820. With respect to those three, Mr. Chairman, may I point out that they cover respectively the deficits in the agricultural commodities stabilization account, the lobster trap indemnity account and the old age security fund. In those three cases the amount of the item has been adjusted to correspond with the precise amount expended. In other words the house is being asked now to approve the transfer of the precise amount because, with the end of the fiscal year, it was possible to put in the specific amount of those three transfers. The others stand in the position of estimates approved in the ordinary form.


William Moore Benidickson: I have no doubt that in the bill there will be a clause that will refer to those 11 items.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, 1 want to express approval of what is being done at this time and the method by which the government is asking parliament to approve of certain governor general's warrants. Although this money has been approved and spent, although this is being placed before parliament after the act has taken place, we nevertheless feel that it is an excellent practice that parliament have the right to discuss and approve or disapprove, if that should be the case, of the particular governor general's warrants that were necessary.
We recall the main discussion that took place in this house in the dying days of the last parliament when this whole question was raised by the then member for Winnipeg North Centre, who outlined the C.CJF.'s position and asked that the items be placed before us at a later date for approval. That practice should be followed. I am not going to endeavour to follow the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River in discussing a particular item. If we have something more to say in that regard we can do so when the bill is before the house in committee, but we do approve of this practice. We think the right thing is being done, and we think it establishes a type of practice that parliament could adopt and follow in the years ahead.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, just before this resolution carries I wish to endorse what has been said, and to say that we are very pleased to see the government adopting this procedure, which I trust will be the recognized method of procedure in the future. I think one realizes fully that owing to the changing conditions under which we are living today, and the great expansion that is taking place in this country, problems arise suddenly which are not foreseen when parliament is sitting. Therefore there is some reason for those unexpected expenditures and there is necessity for the use of governor general's warrants on occasion.
In this respect I wish to bring to the minister's attention a news item which I noticed in the London Times this morning, dated August 19, which 1 think, indicates that other governments as well as ours are having problems because of changed circumstances and conditions in modern society. I want to read it and ask for the minister's opinion on the suggestion contained in this news item. It reads as follows:
The appointment of a small independent committee to report on the theory and practice of treasury control of expenditure is recommended by the select committee on estimates in their sixth report.
The committee, bearing in mind the handicaps they met in a limited examination of treasury control over expenditures, say that the proposed committee should have access to cabinet papers.
They consider that supplementary estimates, "which can destroy effective budgetary control both of the nation's economy and of government expenditure," have become in recent years far too willingly accepted by the treasury as a natural feature of government finance.
They say they find it difficult, without access to cabinet papers, to assess how frequently the costs of policies and major projects are underestimated, but the little evidence they have is disquieting.
I bring that to the attention of the minister, and I should like to ask him whether he has noticed it and whether any consideration has been given by the government to a study along similar lines.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have not seen the article to which my hon. friend refers, but I shall be glad to have a look at it.
Resolution reported and concurred in.
Mr. Fleming (Eglinton) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. C-57, for approving certain expenditures authorized for the public service, and the application of certain amounts in the accounts, of the financial year ended the 31st March, 1958.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS Administration services-
193. Departmental administration, $623,942.
(Translation):


Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, is the hon. minister about to review the activities of his department?
(Text):


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman. As hon. members are aware, my department was before the standing committee on mines, forests and waters a few weeks ago. Members of that committee were given the opportunity of reviewing all aspects of my department, including particularly the 1958-59 estimates.
The report of the standing committee has now been made available to all members of the house. It is pleasant for me to note in the report that the committee feels that my department is doing a good job, but the committee also feels that more should be done in order that the "normal national development be not delayed".
With this recommendation in mind I do feel that the minor increase requested for my department for the present fiscal year will meet with the full approval of all members of the house.
I should now like to review for the house the main activities of the five branches of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, namely the surveys and mapping branch, the geological survey of Canada, the mines branch, the dominion observatories and the geographical branch. The department also has a mineral resources division which is concerned with all matters of an economic nature pertaining to the development, utilization and conservation of Canada's mineral resources. In addition, the department administers the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and the Explosives Act.
The department continues to experience a heavy demand for base maps for resources development, defence, transportation, engineering and such purposes. Moreover, the department must meet the growing need for research and investigational work into the development of new scientific tools and new methods to assist industry in the search for and development of our mineral resources.
For some time my department has been handicapped in coping with the increased demand for its services by cramped quarters in scattered parts of the city. A few years ago a building program was started to provide the modern facilities necessary to carry out efficiently the department's primary function
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys of assisting Canada's mineral industry to grow and develop. This program is progressing favourably and is expected to be completed late in 1961.
To enable the department to continue to carry out its function of assisting resources development we are asking for $29,742,151. This is exclusive of the dominion coal board estimates, and represents an increase of $1,762,761 over the previous year's estimates.
The main items accounting for this increase are: (1) salaries and wages, reflecting the general increase in salary and wage rates; (2) the cost of buildings and land, some of which is now reflected in the estimates of each department rather than in the public works estimates; and (3) the cost of scientific equipment required for expanded programs and the additional laboratory space which we shall have in our new buildings on Booth street. I shall explain the other increases over the previous year's estimates as I proceed.
The department, through its surveys and mapping branch, carries out the two functions of establishing a network of surveys over the length and breadth of Canada, including the Arctic islands, and of providing base maps for use in the development of Canada's natural resources.
The surveys and mapping branch is divided into five divisions, the geodetic survey of Canada, the topographical survey, the Canadian hydrographic service, the legal surveys and aeronautical charts division, and the map compilation and reproduction division. In addition, the Canadian section of the international boundary commission reports for administrative purposes through the branch director.
This year the house will be asked to vote the sum of $8,743,130 to provide for the continuation of the branch's mapping and charting program. This represents an increase of $363,184 which I shall account for in my remarks on the appropriations for each division of this branch.
The geodetic survey provides the original surveys that form the framework or basic control for mapping throughout Canada, and for engineering and surveying projects related to natural resources development. We are asking for $690,761 for the survey's 195859 program, an increase of $113,503 over last year. This increase is due mainly to the higher cost of air transport as the survey extends its operations farther northward.
The topographical survey is responsible for the medium and large scale mapping of Canada. It has a twofold objective, to complete the mapping of the whole of Canada at the scale of 1 to 250,000, and to provide topographical maps at the scale of 1 to 50,000,
3826	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys or approximately one inch to the mile, for areas which are of immediate or potential importance in resources or other development.
For the topographical survey we are asking $1,929,769, an increase of $107,895 over last year. This is mainly accounted for by higher operating costs in more northerly areas.
The Canadian hydrographic service charts Canada's coastal and inland waters. It operates, this year ten ships, seven on the Atlantic coast and three on the Pacific, and seven shore-based parties using large launches equipped with echo sounders.
A number of recent developments have made it necessary for the service to extend its charting program considerably. The construction of the St. Lawrence seaway, for instance, has resulted in a demand for up to date charts of the St. Lawrence-great lakes waterway. The exploration and development of mineral deposits in northern areas, particularly in Ungava and the Northwest Territories, have made it necessary to chart adjacent waters to provide safe ore-shipping routes. The potential development of Canada's Arctic regions, the entry of Newfoundland into confederation, and the withdrawal of admiralty charts of Canada's Atlantic and Pacific coast all mean expanded charting operations to meet the need for charts of these areas.
Though the program of work is on the increase, there are certain non-recurring items, and the amount of $3,898,092 required in this year's estimates represents a slight increase only over the previous year.
The legal surveys and aeronautical charts division carries out original and subdivision surveys in Yukon and the Northwest Territories and in Indian reserves, national parks and other federally controlled lands. It also produces electoral maps, aeronautical charts, and the Canada Air Pilot the last two of which are used by airplane pilots over Canada. The appropriation for this division is $754,674, an increase of $49,867 over last year, reflecting the general increase in salary and wage rates and increased travelling expenses for field parties.
This division also works with provincial agencies through appointed commissions in the demarcation of boundaries. This year work is being continued on the British Co-lumbia-Yukon-Northwest Territories boundary, on the Manitoba-Northwest Territories boundary, and on the Saskatchewan-Northwest Territories boundary.
The map compilation and reproduction division compiles, drafts, and reproduces maps and charts, and has charge of map distribution. The division's main problem is to keep its map publication abreast of the greatly


speeded up surveying, mapping and other field operations. For this fiscal year we are asking for $1,261,432, an over-all increase of $24,171.
There is a separate vote in my department's estimates to take care of all aerial photography needed by the several departments of our government. The main use for this aerial photography is necessarily for topographic mapping. We have practically completed the coverage of the Canadian mainland by vertical aerial photography and because of the growing importance of the far north in the scheme of things today, we are starting this year to expand this aerial photographic coverage into the Arctic archipelago. For the coming fiscal year the department is asking for an appropriation of $1,050,000 to cover the photography of the archipelago.
We turn now to the geological survey of Canada. It studies, maps, interprets and reports on the geology of Canada. The geological survey's work is needed to make known areas of potential sources of minerals and to assess the nation's mineral potential. The activities of the branch are based primarily on field investigations. The survey supplements these investigations by essential and specialized research in all phases of the geological sciences including geophysics, geochemistry and mineralogy.
For the fiscal year the geological survey requires an estimated $3,114,720, an increase of $444,854 over last year. Part of this increase covers a moderate expansion in the survey's field program for 1958. It is placing 77 parties in the field this year compared with 69 last year. The increase also covers an expansion in its airborne magnetometer and reconnaissance surveys, and in its laboratory facilities for research. Such facilities are vital to a scientific organization such as the geological survey.
Now that the branch hopes to occupy its new quarters and laboratories on Booth street next year, the estimated expansion of laboratory and related equipment is much greater than in recent years. An appropriation to cover this new equipment is required during the current fiscal year so the full potential of the new quarters may be realized as soon as possible.
The geological survey is giving top priority, first, to completing the preliminary reconnaissance mapping of Canada at the earliest practicable date and second to the development of more rapid, economical and efficient field techniques.
To this end the survey turned to aerial reconnaissance by helicopter in 1952. Since then it has carried out seven major helicopter projects in which it has mapped nearly half

a million square miles of territory. In general the helicopter technique has proved to be the most economical in terms of dollars per square mile. This year the geological survey will carry out the second part of the helicopter operation which it began last year in northwestern Quebec in a 120,000 square mile area lying between James bay and Hudson bay and the Labrador trough. This is the largest unmapped portion of the Canadian shield.
The survey has resumed airborne magnetometer work in the maritime provinces this year to complete the unfinished sections of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. It is also making an aero-magnetic survey of the continental shelf in the bay of Fundy, Northumberland strait, and the gulf of St. Lawrence to gain information on the geological features of the shelf.
Our mines branch has several projects in hand. Its chief function is to promote the economic development and conservation of Canada's mineral resources by means of metallurgical, chemical and mechanical research. The mines branch is divided into five divisions; mineral dressing and process metallurgy, radioactive minerals, industrial minerals, fuels, and physical metallurgy. We are asking for an appropriation of $3,536,390 for the mines branch for the fiscal year. The increase of $158,609 over last year reflects the continued expansion in branch activities to keep pace with the expansion in our mineral industry.


An hon. Member:: One o'clock.


The Deputy Chairman:: Has the minister much more?


Paul Comtois: It will take five or six minutes.


Charles Edward Rea: Does the committee give unanimous consent for the minister to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Paul Comtois: I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The mineral dressing and process metallurgy division assists the industry through investigation on the primary beneficiation of ores, on metal extraction from the concentrates, and on final metal refining. Most mineral discoveries today contain complex and refractory ores. Special research is needed on these ores to develop economical processing methods. The industry has, for instance, asked for assistance in working out treatment methods for complex columbium ores and low-grade manganese ores.
Canada's present front rank position as a major world producer of uranium is a direct result of much painstaking work and research
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys in the radioactivity division on the processing of radioactive ores. Every uranium mine in Canada has received technical assistance from this division. Now that most uranium companies in Canada are in production, the division is turning its attention to the recovery of other values from radioactive ores, and to the improvement of present recovery processes.
The industrial minerals division is concerned with the economic development, treatment and utilization of Canada's resources of nonmetallic minerals, sands, clays, rocks, and industrial waters. These make up, in large part, the raw materials of the chemical and construction industries.
Canada's output of these minerals has expanded greatly in the past ten years along with our country's rapid industrial growth, and the wide variety of projects under way in the division's laboratories indicates the importance of these minerals to our country's continued industrial growth. In a recent project, for instance, branch engineers did valuable work on methods of upgrading poor quality sand and gravel and processing crushed stone to make new sources of these much needed materials available for the construction of the St. Lawrence seaway and power project.
The main goal of the research and investigative work of the fuels division is the economic utilization of Canada's fuel resources. It is working, for example, on improving the quality and making saleable products of the low-grade oils and bitumen of high sulphur content which occur in large quantities in western Canada. To assist the coal industry it is working on the development of methods to reduce the hazards of mining at increasing depths, and on the development of cleaning and beneficiation methods to improve coal products and reduce wastage. It is also doing research on the blending of coals to provide high-quality cokes for foundry and blast furnace use.
The physical metallurgy division assists the Canadian mining and metal industries, the defence services, and the atomic energy project by carrying out fundamental and applied research on metals and alloys. It investigates the causes of failure of metal parts. It does applied research on the production of new alloys and the improvement of existing alloys, and fundamental research to explore some of the laws governing the behaviour of metals. It does much of its work in co-operation with industry.
At the dominion observatories, the course of world scientific events has greatly increased the work in astronomy and geophysics. The observatory's major participation in the international geophysical year, for instance, has
3828	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys meant a greatly increased program of observations and measurements of geophysical phenomena. It has also meant the establishment of two new magnetic observatories, one in Victoria, British Columbia, and one in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories.
For the dominion observatories we are asking for an appropriation of $1,769,036, an increase of $833,872 over the previous year. Of this increase $562,750 is to be used to permit the branch to expand its astronomical research to include radio astronomy. It will cover the purchase of a radio telescope, the acquisition of land, and the construction of buildings and works for the establishment of a complete radio observatory this year near Penticton, British Columbia. Radio astronomy has proved to be the most spectacular development in astronomy in the past 20 years. When completed, the new telescope will be one of the largest radio telescopes in North America. We expect to have it in operation in 1959.
The increase in the observatories appropriation also includes the purchase of a new 48-inch telescope by the dominion astro-physical observatory at Victoria, British Columbia. The building to house the new telescope is expected to be finished during the present year, but the telescope itself will take two more years to complete. The addition of the 48-inch telescope will permit the observatory to make fuller use of its 73-inch telescope for long-term programs of observations.
Our geographical branch carries out surveys of various parts of Canada, and collects and organizes geographical data on Canada and on foreign areas of importance to Canada. The work of the branch will be similar in scope this year to that of 1957-58. The appropriation is estimated at $315,728 for the fiscal year, an increase of $21,685 over last year, mainly because of the increasing remoteness of field operations. A major project of our geographical branch is the making of land-use surveys and terrain-analysis studies. Such land-use mapping is proving particularly valuable in southern Canada for purposes of planning and development. The special Senate committee on land use visited the branch in November, 1957 to learn about this work.
The preparation of the atlas of Canada by the branch has been under way for a number of years, and I am pleased to inform the house that the publication of the English edition is scheduled definitely for December of this year and possibly earlier, and that the French edition should follow next year. The atlas illustrates the broad range and great wealth of Canada's known natural resources-
[Mr. Comtois.l

agricultural, forest, mineral, fishery and water-a wealth from which we in this country produced a gross national product valued at over $31 billion last year.
The atlas, however, does not illustrate the vast potential of our resources still to be discovered or developed. Nowhere in Canada is this potential greater than in the mineral industry. The evergrowing richness of our country's mineral potential is most evident in the continued discovery of tremendous reserves of iron ore, particularly in Quebec; of base metal wealth in the various provinces; of oil and gas in western Canada; while in the territories, exploratory activity and the large scale reconnaissance mapping being carried out by our geological survey are steadily confirming the same rich potential in these great northern regions. In view of this, there can be little doubt that our mineral industry will long continue to contribute a major share to our national prosperity.
In closing, Mr. Chairman, I should like to pay a tribute to the very excellent and efficient service being rendered by the employees of my department. They are making a valuable contribution to the impressive growth of our mineral industry.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Armand Dumas: The first item in the estimates of this department gives the members of this committee an opportunity to review the activities of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. We also have a chance to comment on the industry most directly concerned with the department.
I was very much interested in the statement made by the minister this morning. It is true, as he said, that the estimates of his department have been studied by the standing committee on mines, forests and waters and many of the hon. members in this chamber had an opportunity on that committee not only to question the minister but also to question the officers and the directors of each branch of the department. The minister, of course, made a lengthy statement in committee regarding his department, which was very much appreciated by all the members in attendance. At the same time we had the opportunity to review the activities of the dominion coal board and there were lengthy discussions on that subject.
I noticed that this morning the minister did not say anything about the dominion

coal board, but I presume that in view of the fact that this board practically constitutes a department of its own, of course under the minister, that he will let us have a separate statement later on with respect to the activities of the dominion coal board.
With respect to the work of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, we all realize that the tremendous expansion which has taken place during the last 20 years in the development of our natural resources, and the intensity of the mining activities in practically every part of this country has of course caused an extraordinary large demand for geological information in the form of reports and mapping services, research work and tests on Canadian ores and minerals and other services provided by the five principal branches of the department, so much so that the ability to supply the necessary information has been taxed to the maximum.
We are often inclined to think that the department is not keeping abreast of the developments which have taken place. However, those who are engaged in the search for new mineral deposits, those who are directly engaged in the installation of new mining developments and those who are trying to improve mining operations and extractive methods in mines, have only praise and compliments for our federal department and this is due in great measure to the efficiency of the personnel of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I have said before and I would now like to repeat that we are most fortunate in having excellent mining engineers, scientists and other experts who are highly qualified, each in his own sphere. I wish to congratulate them upon the work they have done and I am sure that if this department is voted the necessary funds to permit an increase in personnel and an expansion in the activities of the department, hon. members can rest assured that the net result will justify such an increase in moneys voted by this house.
Some very important work has been carried out by the department and we have only to read the annual reports which are published to see the excellent work which has been done in the past. I repeat that it is unfortunate that, as members of this committee, we do not receive the report on past activities before we consider the estimates for the coming year. The department at one time published a summary report which was most helpful because we received it soon enough so that we might consider it before the estimates came before the committee. This method of procedure has been dropped and I understand that the annual report is not now ready in time for us to consider it in this way-and this applies to the reports of other 57071-3-243
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys departments of government. However, we have been told in committee that next year efforts will be made to produce such a report before we are asked to study the estimate and I hope that if it is not possible for the queen's printer to produce the normal annual report we will receive at least a preliminary report as we did in the past.
Regarding the different branches of the department, I will have quite a few questions to ask the minister as we proceed to discuss the estimates but at this moment I would like to extend my remarks to the mining industry in general.
We are aware at the present time that the situation in the Canadian mining industry is not as we would like it to be. We have, however, every reason to be optimistic and to believe that in the long term it will fulfil its great promise. In recent years the industry has played an outstanding role in the development of the Canadian economy and at the present time it is a very vital factor in our economy; its future is almost unlimited. The general softening in the price of base metals on world markets during the last 16 to 18 months has been reflected in the Canadian mining industry. The demand for most mineral products has diminished and of course prices have dropped. This trend was much accentuated in respect of copper, lead and zinc, but fortunately the price of copper tends to increase at the present time. The prices of the two other metals are, however, extremely low.
For instance, the price of lead and zinc dropped by approximately 20 per cent and 25 per cent respectively, during the period 1956 and 1957 and, of course, the price of copper had declined by 40 per cent until lately when we saw a small rise in price. In Canada these adverse conditions in the prices of copper, lead and zinc have had serious repercussions. Several mines have suspended or closed their operations, and others have cut back production. The outlook for the mining industry in the immediate future is not too good. The three major base metals, copper, lead and zinc, are experiencing some serious trouble. Copper stocks in the United States are not very high at the present time, but there is an incentive by way of a bill which has been passed, or which will be passed, to enable the government of the United States to pay subsidies not only to copper producers but to producers of lead, zinc and other metals. This will certainly produce an effect in this country; though I am told it may not be as severe as the tariffs which were supposed to be imposed on these different metals being exported to the United States.
3830	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Nevertheless, I think the future of the mining industry is bright. It may take some time before the price of metals goes up again, but we know that consumption will increase. Often we are asked by people who are not familiar with the metal trade why we believe consumption will increase. The increasing use of minerals is partly the result of a growing world population, partly the result of wartime demands and partly because of the improvement in the per capita wealth of the population. By and large, people are better off today than ever they were, and generally speaking the higher the standard of living the more metal is used. In addition, if we look through the different reports which are published we will soon realize that the consumption of metal will be increasing in the future to a very large degree.
First of all, we have the opportunity to read the Paley report which was published in the United States, and this report stated in part that from 1950 to 1975 the overall demands for minerals would probably be 90 per cent higher in the latter year despite the fact that today in only two metals, magnesium and molybdenum, is the United States self sufficient. The reserves have been depleted and they are actually importing large quantities of these metals, and in the near future this importation of foreign metal into the United States will be increasing all the time.
By 1975, the report states, the increased needs in the United States will be greater by the following amounts. Then the report goes on to give a table of the estimated increases. The figures have been public for quite a long time, but they do show the great opportunity which our minerals industry has to supply an important part of the metals which will be imported by the United States in the future. Here is a partial list: ferro-alloys, 75 per cent, nickel 100 per cent, tungsten 150 per cent, cobalt 344 per cent, manganese 50 per cent, molybdenum 170 per cent, copper 43 per cent, lead 53 per cent, zinc 39 per cent, titanium and cadmium 324 per cent.
Canada has many of these metals in exportable quantities, and production has been on the increase. In the case of some of the others there has been a sharp deficiency. However, I see by reading the report on the economic prospect prepared by the Gordon Commission that the following appears on page 215:
The basic influences which have operated to increase Canadian mining and mineral processing production in the past will in all probability continue to be felt with undiminished force in the future. The population and standards of living of all of the main industrial countries of the world

are continuing to rise, with expenditures on durable goods tending everywhere to increase even more rapidly. Defence requirements may decline relatively from their present level, but competition and technological change will combine to put heavy emphasis on investment in machinery and equipment, while the economic development of the less industrialized countries will add still further to the demand for minerals. One must, of course, make allowance for the increased absolute amount of scrap metal which will be available-
This has always been a factor. However, on reading these reports we must realize that the future of the base metal industry in this country is very bright.
This brings me to the activities of the department itself. I have always stated, when I have had a chance to speak on occasions such as this during the discussions of the estimates of the department, that we in this country should make more money available to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I know it was mentioned by the minister this morning that the estimates for this year amount to $29,545,451, while in
1957-	58 they were $27,979,390. In other words, there has been a very small increase. But the minister said this morning that this increase is mostly brought about by increases in salaries and wages and in the extra cost of building. I understand that building costs were probably carried by some other department in the past but are now being carried in the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. The minister also stated that increased cost was involved in the purchase of scientific instruments and other installations. Thus, even if the estimate for
1958-	59 does show an increase of over $1 million as compared with the estimates of 1957-58 the increase is not such as to permit an extension in the research, mapping, geological surveys and other works which is supposed to be done by this department. If you look at the estimates for 1956-57 and 1955-56 you can see that they have been practically the same for the last four fiscal years; there has been a small increase, but that increase has not been sufficient to permit the department to do the job that it was designed to do or to give an opportunity to its officers and staff to do the job they would like to do.
I do not want to repeat myself, but we have experts in this department. They are able to do a job, but the department has to be voted the money necessary to do the job. I will go so far as to say that the minister is anxious to do a good job in his department. Since he has taken over the department he has shown that he is very much interested. Every member of the House of Commons should insist that the estimates of this department be increased. We have a job to do.

Let me cite only one example. We were told in committee that only about 30 per cent of this country has been mapped for geological purposes. We were told that last year we added 3 per cent to that. That makes 33 per cent, which means that we still have a big job to do. I realize that from now on the work will probably proceed more quickly. We are using methods today which are facilitating this work. For instance, in 1952, in the geological surveys of this country, we initiated a program of helicopter operations. In the magazine Precambrian, largely prepared by officers of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, there appears a report of the operations. Because the report has been prepared by those officers I think we can quote it without question. In 1952 we had one helicopter operation. This was the first one. It was called the Keewatin. In 1954 we had three operations, the Baker operation, the Pitt lake operation and the northern Cape Breton operation; in 1955, we had two; in 1956, we had one; and in 1957, we had two. I understood from what the minister said before recess today that we have another operation in Quebec this year which is called the Fort George operation. It started in 1957, but we were told in committee that the department expects to complete this operation this year. I understand also that next year the department contemplates the possibility of having other operations such as those I have mentioned. In the same article in the magazine to which I referred there is a report on an operation called Mackenzie. These helicopter operations are really the thing. Probably we can do more work in these operations than we could do with the usual method of making geological surveys across the country.
In saying that the department has completed only 33 per cent of the program of mapping this country in so far as geology is concerned, I am not trying to belittle the work of the department. They have done good work. We have to remember that 25 or 30 years ago those who were making the surveys had to travel by canoe and they could not do very much in one season because it is easy to understand that this work cannot be carried out during the winter. We should try to do more geological survey work. This is very important. I was told not very long ago by some mining people that the reason why the federal department of mines should do more work is that their work is tops, their work is first-class and is of great help to prospectors when they go looking for new metal discoveries. They say that they get more information from the federal department of mines than they can get from the different provincial departments of mines.
57071-3-243J
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
We had a good example of that in one instance in Quebec last year. In Quebec we have a section over which a geographical survey was carried out by a private company a few years ago. Since 1949 I have insisted that the work which was done by that company should be compiled and published. Finally, in 1954 or 1955, we succeeded in having the department start compiling those maps. When the maps came out a year or two years ago the first map which gave information regarding the survey in that part of Quebec was compiled by the department of mines in Ottawa, and the department was given permission to publish the information. After a certain number of years those maps were published. What happened? Immediately after they were distributed prospectors used them and mining companies used them and the result is that in the province of Quebec we have about the biggest discovery which has been made in the last 25, 30 or 50 years. Ninety miles north of Senneterre they discovered a deposit of zinc, lead, copper, silver and gold, and we have there what looks like the biggest deposit discovered in this country up to now. They have proven over 30 million tons of ore and I am sure the work which will continue will double this amount. I may be optimistic, but it looks like a big mine for the future.
Those who are not familiar with the situation may say, "We do not need lead and zinc right now; we have an over-supply of those metals". Mr. Chairman, the time will soon come when we shall be glad to mine this deposit of which I have spoken, and we shall soon be glad to open up Pine Point in the Northwest Territories and develop those other big Canadian mining prospects.
To show how important is the work of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, the total estimates of this department, as I mentioned before, are close to $30 million. I will agree it is a substantial amount, but when you compare those estimates with the estimates of other departments and when you take into consideration the great need for exploration across this large country of ours you realize that those estimates could very well be doubled and they would not be too large.
I have spoken only about the geological survey branch. I could say the same things about the survey and mapping branch and about the mines branch. They are all important branches of the department. Given the proper amount of money those sections of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys could double their work. It was mentioned by the minister in the committee that it was difficult at times to organize parties to make surveys during the summer
3832	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys and early fall because of not having a sufficient number of leaders for such parties. I suggest to the department that they should secure a greater number of surveyors and geologists and train these men. If the department does not train such men, how can we expect the department to have a sufficient number of leaders to take charge of these parties during the summer seasons? It is very important that we try to enlist in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys a sufficient number of technicians and experts so that when we want to carry out a certain amount of work, whether surveying or geological surveying, we will be able to do it.
I have just one word in conclusion. I know my time has almost elapsed. I congratulate the officers and personnel of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys but I should like to go a little further and congratulate a man who is ready to retire from one of the branches of the department. I am thinking of the director of the surveys and mapping branch. This man has done a lot for the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and in so doing has done a lot for his country. Although I am sorry to see him leave the department because he has to retire I am also proud that he will be replaced by a man who has lived in my constituency. Sometimes we are disappointed to see a man go but are proud of the man who fills the vacancy and in this case I am very proud that the man who will replace the director of surveys and mapping is a man who has lived for some time in the constituency of Villeneuve. I will have questions to put when we come to the individual items and I will also have something to say about the dominion coal board after the minister has made a statement.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, the minister's disarming smile plus the technical nature of the work undertaken by the department are not components likely to engender political turbulence in the chamber this afternoon so I trust that we are going to have a very good natured, objective discussion of the minister's estimates.
I must say that I read with some interest the proceedings of the committee that considered the estimates of the department and I noticed that the good work of the department and the staff was recognized by the committee as I think it is recognized generally. A good many Canadians do not realize the excellence of the personnel of this technical department, of the men who are willing to serve Canada in their present positions when in a number of cases they


could obtain higher salaries in private industry and possibly very much higher salaries if they left Canada and went to the country to the south of us. I think that fact should be recognized more by Canadians generally.
The second conclusion I draw from reading the proceedings of the committee, having in mind the good work being done by the department and the excellence of the staff, is that there is a necessity for more funds to expand the good work being done and give this excellent staff the opportunity to do things that are waiting to be done in the technical field in which they work. I believe it is correct to say that this department has rendered service to the country for 51 years. I do not intend to make extended remarks at this time because I have to leave to record a radio broadcast and I must not disappoint the many people who listen to me every week as the fount of all wisdom with respect to what is happening in parliament.
However, the surveys and mapping branch, in which I have been particularly interested, is of great importance to the country at this time especially in view of the development of our natural resources, water resources, forest resources and so on. I have three suggestions to make to the minister. The first is that I hope every possible opportunity is given to students from universities and technical schools to secure employment with the field parties of this branch during the summer months. I also hope that every opportunity is given to graduates to secure positions within the department.
With respect to students particularly, the experience gained in field work is of great value and I think it is very worth while to get these young men started as undergraduates and interested in the work of the department, which means so much to the country. I hope every consideration is given to that because I have had representations from a number of organizations urging that, especially in the light of present circumstances, every effort be made by the government and particularly this department to find employment for as many of these persons as can be fitted into the appropriations voted by parliament.
My second suggestion has to do with the markers that are placed by the branch in various parts of the country and which are of great value in determining levels, locations and things of that sort. They are usually bronze plates with a number and possibly some reference to the fact that they are the property of the government of Canada. They are of great interest to many people and I suggest to the minister that consideration be

given to placing a little more information on these markers. They are placed there as the result of considerable expense involving surveys, levels and things of that sort, and in addition to having the reference number and the fact that the marker was established by the government of Canada I think it would be advisable to consider putting more information on them relating them to the surveys of the district, their purposes and so on. I make the suggestion because of the number of people who are interested in these things and the marker, of course, means nothing to them until they write for the information related to the number on the monument.
My third suggestion is that the branch is in need of more publicity. Field parties go into a district and the local residents know there is a field party there because some people are living in a few tents by the side of a lake who go to the nearest store and buy a few groceries. They know there is somebody there working for the government of Canada and doing something. I think the opportunity is being lost to acquaint our young people with the value of the work and its purpose and I suggest that there should be more publicity generally, possibly by press releases to the local papers, informing the people of the district that there is a party from this branch of the department doing survey work in the district. I also think that, using the right personnel, local organizations and school children could be informed of what is going on through short talks. I am sure that could be worked into the department's agenda without any great inconvenience. I suggest that it would be of great advantage to the local people and particularly the younger people from the point of view of getting them interested in the surveys and their purpose and helping them to realize in that way the value of the natural resources in their own district and developments in Canada generally. I think we should do everything possible to spread knowledge about the purpose of the work of the branch in its relation to the development of our natural resources.
I want to say a few words about the Canadian board of geographical names, an organization in which I have always been interested. In that connection, I want to ask the minister if there is close liaison between the officers of his department and the corresponding branches of the provincial governments with respect to the accuracy of names or the inclusion of names on maps. In recent years I have noticed two or three instances where a recent provincial map, say of the province of British Columbia, contained names that
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys you could not find on a map published by the Dominion of Canada. I was just wondering if there were any continuing relationships to make certain that these changes in names or these additional names are included in the latest map produced by this department.
With respect to the Canadian board on geographical names, I want to deal particularly with one matter on behalf of a good number of the pioneer residents of the district which I have the honour to represent. I should like to express their appreciation to the minister for certain action on his part in recognizing the good work of Dr. L. E. Borden, who was on the cruise of the Neptune in 1903 as medical officer and botanist. In that connection, I am going to put two letters on the record because I have been asked to do this by persons interested in this question. The first letter is dated Ottawa, February 12, 1958, and reads:
Mr. G. M. Munroe, Secretary,
Canadian Board on Geographical Names, Department of Mines and Technical Surveys,
No. 8 Temporary Building,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Dear Mr. Munroe:
I would like to draw your attention to the name of Dr. L. E. Borden after whom it has been suggested a physical feature in the Kootenay be named.
Doctor Borden has been a resident of the Kootenay for over 50 years and has made considerable contribution to Arctic exploration.
Doctor Borden's record was brought to the attention of the house on the estimates of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys on July 5, 1956 (Hansard 5692-95) -
That was the occasion on which I brought to the attention of the house his good work on the cruise of the Neptune.
-and later presented the proclamation to the house on August 11, 1956 (Hansard 7433).
That was when I presented this, as far as is known, only existing copy of the proclamation whereby the Arctic islands were taken possession of in the name of Canada.
May this request be investigated at your earliest convenience and a report forwarded to me accordingly.
Yours sincerely,
(sgd.) Paul Comtois
I am very glad to read that letter into the record. I am more than pleased, as a good number of the people in our district are, over a later letter written by the minister. It reads:
Ottawa, June 26, 1958.
Mr. T. Eric Jones,
2998 Seaview Road,
Ten Mile Point,
Victoria, B.C.
Dear Mr. Jones:
I wish to refer to our exchange of correspondence regarding the naming of a geographical feature after Dr. L. E. Borden.
3834	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The Canadian board on geographical names has notified that the U.S. board of geographic names
now advised me that approval has been given to apply the name of Borden river to a feature which flows into Roes Welcome sound between Cape Fullerton and Whale Point to commemorate Dr. Borden.
The feature is in the area visited by the Neptune and is identified on the enclosed map for your convenience.
Yours sincerely,
(sgd.) Paul Comtois
I want to thank the minister on behalf of the many friends of Dr. Borden who was a pioneer resident of our district, was a medical officer of the 54th Kootenay battalion in which I had the honour to serve as did the Minister of Public Works, was the Conservative member of the legislature for a number of years representing the Nelson district, and during all these years since his return after the cruise of the Neptune has rendered great service to his district.


Paul Comtois: No more than my hon. friend.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The minister was well
informed of the circumstances. I am one of those who believe in pioneers being recognized in the naming of these geographical features. Some years ago I was horrified to find, after a certain crew had returned from surveying a certain area in western Canada, that they were so lacking in names that they had named the various points, things such as lakes, rivers and physical features, after the camp cook and so on. I am not objecting to these people getting places named after them, but these places should not be named after someone who comes from eastern Canada to spend six weeks in the area. I am all in favour of those pioneers who wandered into the woods having their names commemorated in the naming of these geographical features. I may say that is C.C.F. policy, Mr. Chairman. In any event, I know the minister's action in this respect is appreciated by a good many pioneer citizens in the Kootenay district, in fact in British Columbia, because they believe the good work of Dr. L. E. Borden should be recognized.
I have one other matter I should like to mention under this heading of the Canadian board on geographical names. I asked the minister a question this morning about this press report which is headed "Ottawa Puzzled as U.S. Names Seaway Lake". I was very pleased with the minister's reply so far as the action of Canada was concerned. The report, you see, reads in part as follows:
Although Canada has taken no official action- and did not seem aware today that the United States had-the Canadian board of geographical names is expected to follow the U.S. lead at a meeting-in early September.
Residents on the U.S. side of the lake behind the giant international powerhouse have been

approved the name Lake St. Lawrence July 24.
-Officials of the Canadian geographical board said today they had been in contact with their U.S. opposite numbers regarding the naming of the lake but did not know that the United States had already acted.
Now, my point is this: I am somewhat mollified by the fact that Canada suggested the name lake St. Lawrence. I do think it is somewhat discourteous of the geographical board of the United States to make this announcement instead of waiting until there could be agreement so that there would be a joint announcement made by both countries. I am sure that all members of this house realize that is the proper way to do things. If you extend the courtesy to another country, then you expect proper procedure and protocol. That is all I am going to say because the minister's explanation this morning gave me some comfort. I can go and tell people that, as a matter of fact, we named it and they announced it.
I want to say a few words generally with respect to the administration of the Explosives Act. I do not usually deal with explosive matters, but this is a serious matter because of the peculiar circumstances that have existed in the Kootenay district for a number of years. I have discussed this with the Minister of Justice and with other officials, and I have discussed it with the local people in my constituency. We feel there are good reasons why there should be a rather more rigid administration of the Explosives Act by the minister's officials. In that connection, I want to read briefly from a letter from a man who travels a lot around the district. He writes me as follows:
I would like to point out that there has been no proper control over the handling of blasting powder and dynamite, and regulations are very lax in the direction and use of powder by most of the large companies in this area. As you will have noticed recently in the paper, a case of blasting powder was found in the near proximity of slashing for the gas line and I suppose you have also heard of powder being left loose along the side of roadways on government projects.
I have had occasion to investigate and found that most of the logging companies could not tell me how much powder was used on a particular project and there have been no actual checks by any authority of the amount of powder used. This resolution is to attempt to get a stricter enforcement of all such use of powder and proper inspection at all times to prevent further misuse of same.
I would like to point out also that there is nothing to prevent me from going to the C.I.L. and buying blasting powder without too much restriction. Further to this, I feel that when the gas line was put through the Nelson area there was no proper control as to who was handling the powder all during this project and a lot of powder could actually have been stolen, even a stick at a time.

Then in addition to that, I have a resolution from the Nelson-Trail and district labour council. This resolution was adopted at a general meeting of the council after prolonged and detailed discussion of this problem as it related to the Kootenay district in general. The resolution reads as follows:
Whereas,
The blasting of power poles, Canadian Pacific railroads and now with the bombing of bus transportation public waiting rooms and restaurants, causing much distress to our workers;
Therefore be it resolved that:
(1)	That blasting powder be charged as the responsibility of one man in any company, or others, and that he be held responsible for the distribution, checking and the correct reports and tallies of all such explosives being used.
(2)	The inspection of all such store houses- arsenals, powder houses where explosives shall be stored in the West Kootenay shall be inspected at least once a week.
(3)	The inspections-tallies-records of explosives, etc. shall be under the control of a federal government official.
Of course, in passing that resolution I suppose the members realized that the matter is in a theoretical sense under the control of the federal government officials. But you cannot expect the officials to be visiting all these places continuously. I suggest that under the circumstances there is need for a much stricter enforcement of the Explosives Act. I have gone through logging operations and have seen two or three cases of dynamite left by the men building roads, just under a log or something of that sort over the weekend. I have been on road building operations and over a weekend there would be left powder and dynamite just possibly covered up with canvas or put under a large machine or something of that sort. In addition to that, dynamite and powder can be purchased by farmers legally and properly through the local farmers' institute which buys it, I think, at a somewhat lower rate from the C.I.L.
I think the great majority of persons using powder are careful to store it and lock it up over the weekend and things of that sort. However, I myself have observed some slackness in this direction. In view of the particular circumstances I urge that the minister give some consideration to the matter. Our circumstances are somewhat unusual. I am not going into that matter now. The minister knows the circumstances. I suggest that he discuss the matter with the Minister of Justice and see whether, at least under present conditions, we could not have a somewhat stricter and, shall I say, abnormal supervision and administration of the Explosives Act in our district. That is all I am going to say in that respect. That is about the only suggestion with a tinge of complaint that I am going to make this afternoon.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I just want to say a word or two about the geological surveys which are of such great value in this country in the search for minerals. I should like to ask the minister, when he replies, whether he would tell us what parties will be operating or are operating in British Columbia this year and whether there are any parties of the geological surveys branch working in the southern interior of British Columbia. Again I suggest that there should be some publicity with respect to the work of the geological surveys branch. It is doing a most interesting and valuable work. I think there should be more publicity through the press and local organizations, and that there should be some opportunity for even our high school students to know what is happening with respect to this most important work which may have some considerable effect on the Canada they will inherit and have to administer in later years.
I should now like to say a word or two about the mines branch and it will be very brief indeed. I represent a constituency in which mining is an extremely important part of the economy. I simply want to say that the good work of this branch and the service it renders to private industry are recognized by all persons who are engaged in the mining industry in my constituency.
Before leaving that point, in view of the fact that the matter was raised by the hon. member who spoke previously-to whose speech I listened with great interest and who is a member who knows what he is talking about when he speaks on this question; and by the way, I am not suggesting that I do not-I want to deal for a moment with the question of the market for lead and zinc. The minister knows, as do his officials, that owing to the present price for lead and zinc a good number of small producers are having a very difficult time. On the orders of the day some time ago I asked the minister, or possibly it was his alter ego on that day- I am not quite sure which it was-whether he had any knowledge of the global plan that was to be handled by the government in each metal-producing country to control distribution and export of lead and zinc according to the market demand after taking into account the prescribed domestic production level.
This proposal was made in the United States by senators representing mining states. I do not know whether or not the minister has any further information on that matter but from the information I have received this suggestion offers some opportunity for international planning of the markets for lead and zinc and, shall I say, the division of those markets on a fair basis
3836	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys related to the normal productive capacity of the countries that would enter into what is called in this report a global plan. When the minister replies I should like him to inform the house whether his department has any information with respect to this plan.
My concluding topic-those words, of course, will bring a smile to everyone's face -has to do with a matter which comes under dominion observatories whose work everyone recognizes. I raised this matter previously. I mentioned it to the minister I think on one or two occasions. I think the last time I mentioned it I suggested that it be brought to the attention of the dominion-provincial conference as a matter that could be properly discussed there and one that should not create much difficulty in order to give effect to it. While I know, as do we all, that in peacetime the question of daylight saving time comes under provincial jurisdiction, I think we are somewhat silly in that respect. I suggest that we should work towards a national daylight saving time. If we are going to have daylight saving time, let us have it apply on a national basis. I again suggest to the minister that he bring this matter to the attention of the next dominion-provincial conference or of the provincial governments individually, whichever course he thinks to be more appropriate, in order to see whether something cannot be done to establish national daylight saving time as a result of agreement between the federal government and all the provinces.
I think we are absolutely silly to go on in this way and have various times established at various times with all the inconvenience involved. I think the suggestion is only common sense and will be to the great convenience of the Canadian people. Then, if we had that sort of arrangement, as to the timetables of the railroads, all we would have to do is to say generally that they are an hour later or an hour earlier across Canada. At the present time we have the railroads running on standard time, some buses running on daylight saving time and some buses on standard time. Then there is a difference between the daylight saving time in various provinces. I think we are causing ourselves a great deal of unnecessary inconvenience because we have not common sense enough to get together and work out a solution to overcome what appears to me, and to the members of the group which I represent, to be a totally unnecessary inconvenience which is causing us unnecessary difficulty in travelling and things of that sort and at the same time in some cases unnecessary expense. I urge the minister to give consideration to our representations in that respect. If he is successful in bringing this about


before his estimates come before the house at the next session of parliament we shall rise up once again and say his name is blessed.


Mr. Chevrier:: There are two matters which I should like to bring to the minister's attention. I hope the two hon. members who have just taken their seat will excuse me if I do not follow them in their remarks. I refer particularly to the speech made by my colleague the hon. member for Villeneuve who always speaks with such authority on matters affecting the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
I always listen with interest to the speeches made by my hon. friend the member for Kootenay West because he succeeds in making anything he has to say interesting. He did cover the waterfront pretty well, but I want to dwell upon one matter which he brought to the attention of the minister, which is the names announced by the minister for the new international lake now formed by the pool resulting from the power development in the international section of the St. Lawrence river. If I understand the situation correctly, the name that has been suggested by the geographical board on names and which has received the concurrence of a similar board in the United States, is that of St. Lawrence lake. Of course I would have no fault to find with that name as it is a name which has behind it a great deal of history. However, I do have a name to suggest to the minister which I think is more appropriate and which I believe, not only meets the historic aspirations of those who live in the area in which this work is taking place but which I believe also meets the national and international viewpoints with equal, if not more, suitability than the name chosen. Of course my submission to the minister is made with great deference, but it is made without hesitation. Although the name has been chosen, I know full well that on other occasions when a name of greater significance has been brought to the attention of the geographical board on names that board has not hesitated to reconsider and to change decisions already made.
The name I have to suggest is one to which I submit serious consideration should be given, because it would serve to preserve the historical associations of the area in which this development is taking place. As the house knows, some of the most important historical episodes in the history of our country relate to this section of the St. Lawrence river; the exploration of the west, the Indian wars under the French regime, the coming of the united empire loyalists, the war of 1812 and the development of the Canadian

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
canals. This particular development with which we are now concerned is perhaps not the final stage, and it seems to me that the name I am about to suggest is more in keeping with the facts surrounding the area than the name selected.
Before these developments took place there existed in this area what was known as the Long Sault rapids. Those rapids have disappeared, having been destroyed by the power works constructed by both Canada and the United States. To those who live alongside the international boundary line and to those who have ever lived in the area, the Long Sault rapids were a sight which can never be forgotten, not only because of their beauty but because of their galloping wildness. The rapids carried many ships, first bearing the early settlers, and then many inhabitants of our country from one end of Canada to the other. The name I suggest, therefore, is the name of Long Sault lake, and the reason I do so is that the lake is on the international boundary line and the rapids themselves were partly in Canada and partly in the United States. It therefore seems to me that it is a name which should appeal to the United States as well as to Canada.
Furthermore, there is an island which bears the name Long Sault which is entirely on the United States side of the boundary line and upon which some works in connection with the project have been constructed and which, until the development of the seaway, had been practically unknown. There were two communities on the Canadian side of the line which have entirely disappeared because of the flooding, namely Mille Roches and Moulinette. These communities have now been replaced by a new community which has arisen on the Canadian side of the line and which also bears the name Long Sault. It would strike me, therefore, that the name of lake Long Sault or Long Sault lake would carry with it not only local support with respect to the early history but would also be national and international in character. So far as I am personally concerned it has far more significance and appeal than the other name because we already have the gulf of St. Lawrence, river St. Lawrence and St. Lawrence county, which is just opposite the works now under construction on the United States side of the line, and which county is in the state of New York. We have on the other hand very little in the way of commemoration of the name of Long Sault in this country. I therefore ask the minister if he would not be good enough to bring this name, which I submit with deference, to the attention of the officers who form the geographical board on names so that they
might consider it and discuss it with their counterpart members in the United States geographical section who have decided upon the name St. Lawrence lake.
Were the minister to accede to my request I am prompted to say that the name would receive universal acclaim.
The next subject which I would like to discuss is one which I am sure the minister is aware, is of concern to me because I have brought this matter forward previously in the course of the discussions on his estimates. This is the fact, the strange fact, that the boundary line separating Ontario and Quebec on lake St. Francis has not yet been determined. After many, many years it seems an anomaly, as it were, that this boundary line should still be in suspense, and I will continue to bring it to the attention of the minister every time I have an opportunity to do so. I do not need to do this because I know the minister is sympathetic in respect of this problem. I also realize that the minister does not have direct jurisdiction over a matter of this kind, which must be determined by the two provinces concerned. On the other hand he has a very great interest in this question in that islands owned by the federal government lie in this area. A good deal of work is being done in the river in respect of the development of the St. Lawrence and it is not known whether the men are working in the province of Ontario or the province of Quebec. Lastly, from the tourist standpoint, a man who fishes, traps or shoots in the area never knows from one moment to the next whether he will be apprehended by the law officers of one or the other province. All these problems arise because it has not been determined where the boundary line lies.
It is an old problem and a vexatious problem, one which should have been determined a long time ago. I am one who sat on the other side of the house for a long time and perhaps I should take some responsibility with respect to this matter but, on the other hand, I must immediately add that I lost no opportunity to bring this very problem to the attention of the minister's predecessor.
Fortunately a survey has been made of the area, a survey which was agreed upon between the surveyor general of the province of Ontario and the surveyor general of the province of Quebec many years ago. Those two surveyors agreed upon a portion of the southern boundary of Ontario and Quebec. That which begins at Coteau and ends at a point 500 feet west of what is known as Cameron's island or Thompson's island in lake St. Francis. But beyond that to the west, for a distance of almost ten miles, in an area
3838	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys which is heavily inhabited on the Ontario side and which is certainly inhabited to a large extent by summer residents on the Quebec side, though possibly not as heavily, the boundary line has never been delineated, and it seems strange that in this day and age it should not be possible to find a solution.
I brought this question to the attention of the premier of the province of Quebec when I was the president of the St. Lawrence seaway authority, and I brought it to the attention of the premier of the province of Ontario and I was assured by both the gentlemen that it would be given their consideration. I know there are difficulties in the way. But the difficulties are small. They are that the islands lie, in the opinion of the province of Ontario, entirely within the confines of that province, while in the opinion of the province of Quebec, they lie entirely within the confines of Quebec. But the islands, it seems to me, are not of such importance that it could not be found possible to draw the line which separates Ontario from Quebec in this area.
The Ottawa Journal-unfortunately I do not have the date before me, but I have a copy of the article which, I believe, appeared in November of 1957-drew attention to the fact that this 10-mile boundary dispute should have been settled a long time ago, and it states that the present situation has proved very awkward for workers and contractors developing the lake St. Francis section of the St. Lawrence seaway and that it has been equally annoying for summer cottagers, anglers, hunters and trappers who have seen game wardens of both provinces converging on them with summonses at the ready.
I do not know whether the situation is as bad today as is suggested in that editorial but it is one which, it seems to me, should not be allowed to continue much longer. May I make a suggestion to the minister? I know he has very convincing powers. I know, too, that he is the kind of person who would not wish to be offensive in any way. May I suggest that he should first approach the premier of his province and that, perhaps, he might then have his officials communicate with the premier of Ontario in an endeavour to ascertain if the boundary line cannot be drawn. It would be a good thing for the federal government and it would be a good thing for the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. If a bill confirming an agreement between the two provinces were brought into this house I am sure it would receive the ready approval of parliament, because this is a good thing and a thing that should be done. I therefore appeal to the minister with regard to these [Mr. Chevrier.l

two points and, knowing him as I do, I am sure he will wish to give them earnest and sympathetic consideration.


Mr. Martel:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words in view of the point which has been raised by the hon. member for Villeneuve concerning base metal discoveries to the north of Senneterre which happens to be in my riding. I do not wish to delay the passing of these estimates in any way, but I rise merely to say that I agree with the hon. member with regard to what he has said, and that I support the observations of the hon. member for Kootenay West regarding the geological surveys branch, which is doing a great job and whose work is of high value to the development of Canada's rich mineral resources.
I mentioned this discovery at Mattagami lake in the middle of my riding during my maiden speech here last May. I am glad to say that my constituents were most happy that I said a few words about it. The only reproach they made to me was that I mentioned at that time that the discovery would compare with that at Pine Point. They thought I should have said it was much bigger than Pine Point. The hon. member for Villeneuve has made that point clear. Not only one ore body has been discovered but, so far, it seems there may have been three base metal discoveries. I have also been informed recently by a reliable source that a gold discovery has also been made in that area. I agree with other hon. members who have spoken this afternoon that the work which has been done by the geological branch of the department of mines has been most significant in bringing about not only these discoveries but many others across Canada.
Before closing, I should like to make a suggestion to the minister concerning the distribution of geological maps and reports. In past years these maps and reports were distributed free to prospectors upon request. I understand that some people and, maybe some companies, abused this privilege and that as a result the prospectors and the companies are now being charged for any such reports and maps they may require. I should like to suggest that in order to encourage prospecting all over Canada at least one set of maps and reports should be made available every year to prospectors who intend to do some exploration work in a particular area.
Finally, may I congratulate the minister upon the help he has extended to the gold mining industry through the subsidy which we discussed a few days ago and also express our gratitude to the officials of his

department who, I believe, are doing a really good job. I hope they continue this good work because if we want to open up the north country we need more surveys and we need their help.


Mr. Fisher:: I suppose it is partly to the credit of the minister that for the first time in many years his estimates went to the committee, and having read the committee report I realize they got through a considerable amount of questioning in relation to the department. I must apologize that some of the questions I am going to ask arise from the fact that I was not able to be on the committee at the time the estimates of the department were before it.
I want to make one key point at this time and to do it I should like to start with a quotation from the report which the minister read to the standing committee on mines, forests and waters. I think it is an important point because the evidence I want to present in a sense tends to contradict the minister's statement. On page 102 he said, referring to co-operation with provincial and private interests:
Nor is there any duplication of our work with that of the provincial government departments and agencies. A main reason for this is that our work and theirs though it may be in the same general field of endeavour, differs in nature and purpose. The work of the provinces stems from their responsibilities in administering resources development within their borders, whereas our work arises mostly from the need for research on the technological problems of the mining and metallurgical industries. Our officials and those of the provinces are in frequent consultation and the possibility of duplication of effort is reduced to a minimum.
I wonder whether the minister's attention has been drawn to a report which appeared in the Toronto Globe and Mail on June 3. It is datelined from Edmonton and it is headed:
Co-operation Urged in Geological Survey
I would like to read part of this report because it is in contradiction of the statement made by the minister here, or at least I think it requires some further explanation on the part of the minister. It begins:
More rapid completion of Canada's geological map could be expected from a clear-cut arrangement between the federal and provincial survey agencies. Dr. H. C. Rickaby of the Ontario mines department said today.
Dr. Rickaby, in his presidential address to the geological section of the royal society of Canada, noted that less than one-third of Canada has been mapped, and even a smaller portion surveyed, on a scale adequate for mineral exploitation.
A statement of the aims and policy of both federal and provincial survey would serve to clarify their respective fields of responsibility, he said.
In Ontario, Dr. Rickaby said, the policy is to make geological work as practical as possible, with
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys commercial considerations uppermost as it attempts to aid in promoting the mining interests of the province.
If other provinces have about the same policy, Dr. Rickaby said, theoretically the field of broad fundamental geological studies-both field and laboratory-would be left largely to the federal government's geological survey of Canada.
"Adequate funds for fundamental research in all branches of geology and geophysics should thus be made available to them for this purpose", Dr. Rickaby said.
"However, because there is really no sharp dividing line between the scientific and the practical, it would be unwise to lay down specific regulations. Nevertheless, an understanding agreement will always be necessary between the different governmental surveys."
He goes on to talk about the work of the geological survey of Canada and the number of people employed and he said:
Although the number sounds impressive when viewed in the light of the amount of field work still to be done it seems regrettably small.
One large oil company and one base metal company operating in Canada employ 80 and 75 geologists, respectively, on a full-time basis, he said.
The federal survey attempts to spread its operation uniformly across Canada, but now is obliged to spend much of its effort on field work in the Yukon and Northwest Territories as the only government geological agency. In Newfoundland and British Columbia, the survey has special obligations under the terms of confederation.
Mr. Rickaby said that in some parts of Canada the private exploration and operating companies are gathering, collectively, more geological information than the government surveys.
"Much of this information is naturally not available to the public," he said, "but in any scheme of national planning for co-ordinated geological studies the place and contribution of the private companies should be taken into consideration."
It seems to me that the gist of these remarks raises very serious questions about the operations of the surveys branch, both in mapping and geology. I would also like the minister to note something that I raised on the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, namely the point raised by W. E. G. Brown, who is now with Spartan Air Services, who was a survey specialist with the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. His point was that he got out of the government service because of a lack of co-operation between the various agencies and the private interests. He went on in his statement before the Senate committee on land use to state that the whole survey problem in Canada is not being attacked-that is the way I interpret what he said-on a rational basis. We are far behind the Russians in our approach and there is overlapping, with no real coordination to prevent this and to direct us along the line.
These are not the kinds of criticisms that have great political weight in comparison, say, with a hassle over whether we have a Canadian economic outlook or not; but
3840	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys they are so fundamental and important that I think we need further statements and explanations than we have had. Then I would like to see the case prepared and presented to the house. It will take some time, but it will give us an excellent picture of how this co-ordina'tion is worked out and the planning stages of the future of how geological surveys and mapping surveys are going to move ahead and cover the entire problem, and how it relates to the number of employees that the department is planning to add. We would like to know about the workload upon those employees. I think this is one of the most important questions we face in all kinds of economic development in the country. If Dr. Rickaby's remarks, or Dr. Brown's remarks, have any substance at all, then there is an implicit criticism of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
I would like to tell the minister that later on I hope to ask him some questions in connection with what his mines section is doing with regard to safety work in connection with uranium slugs and that sort of material, and just what co-relation is being carried out with the Department of National Health and Welfare and with other groups making studies throughout this world on the whole question of the effect of radiation and how the department in its meteorological studies is working on this particular aspect.
I also intend to ask him some questions in relation to scholarships and grants. I appreciate receiving from the deputy minister recently a report on the national advisory committee on research into geological sciences, but this report does not give any indication of the number of applications for research grants. The committee on scholarships and grants concludes, after a review of all the inadequacies of support for both undergraduate and graduate work and for post graduates, with this paragraph:
The above sums on top of what will be the overburdened budgets of the universities raise a serious problem. Where is all this money to come from? If it is not found it will dangerously curtail the much-needed increase in key personnel required by the mineral industry.
At the back of this report we have some interesting statistics on the number of students and the number of degrees granted in various industries in relation to the subject fields of geology, mineralogy and metallurgy. The figures are very disappointing when you consider that only 124 degrees were granted in 1956. This raises the whole issue of the contribution the federal government, through this department, plans to make in this specific field, and whether it is planned to do anything, as the committee suggests, along the line of considering getting into the field


of undergraduate work, and how this department in relation to this particular problem is working with the other departments to assist the universities in some way.
Those of us who have anything to do with university affairs feel that the students in the sciences and in the engineering subjects have much better opportunities for scholarships on the graduate level than in the arts subjects, even though we may feel that it may only indicate that arts are not moving and the sciences and engineering fields are rolling. When we come to that particular phase I have a number of questions I want to raise on the statistics, the number of people applying for grants, the number of students affected and the plans of the department in this regard.
One of the other points we raised last year is the question in relation to the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and the inspections that are carried out. Last year the minister asked us to provide him with specific cases so that he could work on them. I have been trying to get specific cases, but I have to repeat I am in the state I was last year. There is nothing more than the ordinary gossip you get from the miners going around the mining communities, but with all due respect to the miners they are not experts in terms of the ore values existing in these various mines. Therefore I should like a statement from the minister this afternoon as to how often his inspectors visit these mines and just what procedures they follow in order to determine that the mines are not low-grading their properties in order to take advantage of this assistance. If some publicity could be given to the techniques that are used and if it could be generally recognized that they are adequate and that there is no low-grading going on I think you would create a much better relationship between the managements of the mines and some of the people in the areas where the mines are being operated.
Another point I should like to touch on which has not been referred to is the whole question of the publications of the department in relation to popular usage. As the minister and his deputy minister no doubt are aware, prospecting is becoming more and more a big company proposition. It is very interesting to look at the summary contained in a reference paper put out by the Department of External Affairs entitled "Iron Ore in Canada, 1957". This was prepared by W. Keith Buck of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and the indication throughout is that almost all discovery and exploration work is being carried on by very large organizations.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I think the minister must be aware that in most communities, especially in the Lau-rentian shield, there is a large number of what we might call small people who are anxious to get out and do better and more intensive prospecting. We have that situation in my riding. There is an active prospectors' association which is carrying on an adult education program. They are trying to improve their own standards. I have spent some time discussing with the members of the executive of this association what they might expect from the federal government in this regard. One of the main things they say is that the material available from the geological survey and the mines branch is excellent, as has been mentioned several times today, but how does the novitiate, let us say, in this particular field find out about it?
At the lakehead several large mining companies have their geological headquarters. Anyone who visits them will find that almost without exception they have practically a complete file of all geological survey and provincial mines branch material. They have it all arranged. They have men who know how to go into it. But the fact remains that the ordinary person operating with nothing more than the dominion government's annual catalogue or the consolidation issued by the department is not going to get very far in discovering what maps, memoires or reports he really wants to see.
I can give examples to the minister and deputy minister from my own area. There have been a number of reports on the Thunder bay region. The most valuable ones to the prospectors were those produced largely in the 1920's by a man by the name of Tanton. There was also a valuable reprint last year of the Thunder bay region which we appreciated. But there is no way that the ordinary prospector, not the big mining company, can go to the bulk of the geological survey material and find an adequate index. Why do you not have a consolidated listing of what you publish? Up to 1927 you had a very adequate index so that one can get right into old reports going back to the 1860's, but for all your most recent reports you do not have adequate indexing.
I know it is an expensive and difficult matter but if the department would do it in the same way as it did with its old indexes and as the provincial government used to do with the indexes to its bureau of mines reports you would open up much more information for the ordinary prospector than is available at the present time. As a matter of fact, I suggest to the minister that at the
present time the publications of his department, especially the geological surveys, are so complicated in the various forms in which they have been issued and the publicity on them is so hit and miss as far as the average person is concerned that it is really only the experts in the field who can take advantage of them. That is fine. We expect that perhaps the most fruitful results from these publications will come from the larger organizations but it seems to me that the department is not doing enough to bring its publications, especially those of the past, and all they contain to the average prospector or person interested in mining. Whether it is too expensive a job or whether it is even worth considering I do not know, but I should like to have a statement from the minister on how the department looks at the problem. I suggest to him that at the present time there is too large a gap between the ordinary person interested in mining and prospecting and the publications of the department.
As I am sure the minister and the deputy minister are aware, even the old geological survey and bureau of mines reports do not become completely outdated. There is always valuable information in them. I know this is true from the fact that so many prospectors have made use of geological survey files of which I have been in charge. They keep coming in and they are willing to go back to reports in the 1870's and 1880's in order to get the lay of the land and certain tips as to what these early geologists saw in the area. Possibly I have overemphasized the point but I wanted to put it as clearly as possible because I think there is room for the department to do more.
There is another point I want to mention. I should like to know whether it would be possible to make arrangements with some of the private companies that are doing aeromagnetic surveys on a fairly large scale so that some of the maps produced could reach the hands of the ordinary subscriber, shall we say, across the country. I might give an example of how that could work. Largely as a result of aeromagnetic surveys a very large iron ore body has been marked out lying north of the Canadian National Railways line between Nakina and Hearst. Anaconda and several other companies are interested in it, especially Anaconda, and are doing some work. I have been up in the region and have talked with a number of the oldtimers. They tell me that they have been aware for many years of the popping up of these iron formations but that they were never considered important enough. Aerial surveys have now revealed the magnitude of these deposits and the only thing
3842	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys that the small man can now do is to go into these various areas and perhaps pick up a few claims that are allowed to lapse by the big companies.
The big companies have the great advantage of being able to carry out these surveys on their own and they are also the first ones to take advantage of provincial and federal surveys. How can the department carry out some sort of program to bring the advantages of that type of survey to the ordinary prospector who lives in a particular region and whose prospecting role is becoming more and more minor than it has been in the past? I should like to leave that topic with the minister and I hope that he can give us some information on it later.
(Translation):


Mr. Godin:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to address a few observations to the minister. As we do not yet have simultaneous interpretation, I will speak in French-which, incidentally, the minister understands very well.
We all appreciated the praiseworthy action of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois) the other day when he sent hon. members a map of Canada, on which he had taken the trouble of showing the various members' constituencies. We in the opposition were particularly pleased that he believes this map will help members for quite some time in the future, for he had the markings made with red ink.
Mr. Chairman, I am very much interested in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, especially in the matter of grants to universities because my riding will soon have the privilege of having Canada's youngest university, the University of Sudbury which will very shortly be built in the riding of Nickel Belt. I wonder if the minister could tell me if this new university, and others, will receive grants for which provision is made in the estimates we are about to consider?
I mention this mainly because Sudbury university will be in northern Ontario, a mining area where geology necessarily will have more significance for those who seek outlets for their talents as executives in the mining industry. I would therefore greatly appreciate it if the minister would consider the University of Sudbury as being eligible for the annual grants shown in his department's estimates.
In addition, could the minister tell me the precise location of the universities receiving grants, the provinces where they are located, and whether the universities in the province


of Quebec are covered by grants of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys?
I am sure the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, because of his lively interest in geological developments in Canada, as referred to by previous speakers, will direct increasing attention to education in this field, and will doubtless find a way to increase the present grants.
(Text):


Paul Comtois: I shall start by answering the hon. member for Villeneuve, Mr. Chairman. My hon. friend made some comments and suggestions for which I am very thankful. He is an engineer and he knows something about mines. I wish I knew as much as he does, and perhaps I would be a better minister. In any event, I shall certainly take advantage of his suggestions, and I hope they will prove to be of benefit to the department. My hon. friend mentioned the summary report of our activities. I think something could be done in that regard. I shall see if it is possible to go back to the former practice, so that the first report is produced in order to give all the information required by members or any other persons interested in the mineral industry.
The hon. member for Kootenay West, in his witty remarks, mentioned that opportunities should be given to students and undergraduates. We did something about that this year. We are preparing now our estimates for next year, and if the Minister of Finance follows the suggestions made by the hon. member for Villeneuve, no doubt our budget for next year will be increased and at that time we could appoint more students and undergraduates for the next summer.
The hon. member for Kootenay West also mentioned that more information should be given on surveys. Well, it would be quite an undertaking to remedy the omissions from the monuments already erected. However, I shall see if when any new monuments are erected more information can be given so that the public will know why these monuments have been established and the historical data connected with them.
In so far as geographical names are concerned, the hon. member for Kootenay West mentioned co-operation with the provinces. I might say there is already a very close relationship between the dominion government and the provinces. In fact, every province has its representative on the board. I do not know what could be done to improve the situation.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The hon. member also made reference to explosives. I might say that we are studying the whole situation with the Department of Justice with a view to improving the regulations.
The hon. member for Port Arthur made some suggestions also, for which I am thankful. He mentioned an article in the newspaper concerning Dr. Rickaby's statement. As a result of the comments that were made at the royal society meeting a committee of non-governmental geologists was named to look into the matter and make a general recommendation to both the federal and provincial geologists, so we are awaiting the report of this committee to see what can be done.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Could the minister indicate just who these geologists are, how big the committee is and what are its terms of reference?


Paul Comtois: We do not know.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The committee, then, was an outgrowth of the geological section of the royal society of Canada, and it is going to make recommendations?


Paul Comtois: The hon. member for Port Arthur also mentioned the question of inspection of mines. Unless it is proved to us that there is low grading or high grading in gold mines, we do not think it is our responsibility to investigate. This is something that has not been proven yet. As long as it is not proven, as long as we do not have any proof, we do not think it is our responsibility to investigate. I repeat that the matter of low grading and high grading is not the responsibility of my department.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wonder whether I could just ask the minister a question there. I know that high grading is not a responsibility of your department; it is a criminal offence under the law. I was using low grading in the sense that certain mines are receiving subsidies through the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. It is quite obvious that if in their explorations they hit a very high grade deposit and if they mine that deposit the amount of subsidy they get will be smaller. It is quite possible for the mine, as the minister knows, to adjust its mill run in terms of value from the figures they have on the various bases. I insist that in every gold mining community which I have visited-I know it is so in such places as Beardmore and Geraldton in my own particular area and in the Timmins area I heard it from every side-there is this feeling that the mines are doing what the miners call low grading in order to get that assistance. This suggests, in other words, that these mines are milking the federal government for more assistance money than they really need in
terms of their ore deposits. I know that the mines can come back and say that as far as any inspection is concerned they are maybe running a lower grade than usual but that it is just done in order to stretch out their reserves in line perhaps with their exploration program. I should like to know what standards of inspection you have to check in this particular regard.


Paul Comtois: I must tell the hon. member that we have no proof of any practice of low grading. If we have such a report or if we hear about it I am ready to give orders to make an inspection and investigation. Up to the present time however, the proof has not been produced by the department.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It will be a difficult job to carry out such inspections. But surely occasional checks would be worthwhile. For example, we have other legislation under which the government hands out subsidies to certain people in certain areas and there are checks upon it. From visiting out on the prairies recently I know that under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act there is a fairly close check made to see that no farmer is going to get away with anything crooked or that there is no skulduggery. There are inspectors posted throughout the areas. The various pools operate in a sense as inspectors.
I should not like to take from the minister's remarks that these subsidies are handed out without there ever being an inspection by experts of the mines branch and that statistics in relation to milling values and in relation to what they have in their ore reserves, are not just accepted out of hand. What I mean is this. I have a great deal of faith in certain businesses but I feel that that is leaving far too much temptation available to mine managers. I should like to know what are the inspection procedures. How often do your inspectors visit these mines? Do they just look at the books or do they actually go down and try to get some sort of picture of the mines operations in the light of its ore reserves?


Paul Comtois: I might say to the hon. member that our inspectors not only look at the books but also go underground and they make their inspections according to the facts that are referred to them. If some good reasons are brought to my attention for thinking that something wrong is going on, I will see that the whole matter is studied and looked into very carefully. That is all I can say at the present time.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wish the minister would do so, because I have had several letters recently, especially from shareholders in some of the
3844	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys mines who are quite disturbed over the activities of one particular group. I do not mind mentioning it in public. It is Little Long Lac mines which was a relatively small operation in comparison with McIntyre, Hollinger and so on. Recently as a result of various mergers and stock operations, Little Long Lac has become one of the biggest gold mines in Canada. The accusations that are sent to me are to the effect that Little Long Lac is going around doing two things: (1) Buying, through share purchases, control of mining companies that have good reserves built up, and (2) getting companies that are getting a proportionately large share of their income through the gold mining subsidies.
These people all complain to me that this is the kind of operation that should be investigated. I do not know how it could be investigated under anything to do with the federal government unless it was by some stretch of the imagination the combines investigation branch. But it is this kind of suspicion about the operations of this sort of integration that is taking place in the Canadian mining field, especially in gold, by which whole groups of mines are being brought under the control of what amounts to holding companies, that will continue and I think increase the suspicion in people's minds unless they have a fairly good assurance that the mines branch knows exactly what the situation is in these mines and that no one can pull the wool over their eyes and that the subsidy is a direct reflection of an honest operation and an honest reserve policy. I am still not completely satisfied with the minister's answer. I realize the difficulties in which he is involved. I should just like to tell him that I hope to return to this topic in the future and I hope to have more information that I myself have been able to pick up.


Paul Comtois: In any event, I will see that our officers are very careful and are very attentive to the remarks that have been made. Of course, as the hon. member said, there is little we can do at the present time. However, I am grateful to him for having brought this matter to my attention. I will see what we can do. There are also many other points which have been raised.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, if the minister would excuse me for interrupting him-


Paul Comtois: Certainly.


Armand Dumas: -there are a few remarks that I should like to make on the same subject. I can understand the remarks of the hon. member for Port Arthur but I am aware of this situation. I am always surprised when I hear mention in this place that the mines are low grading because in the past we have


been complaining very much that gold mines were high grading, that they were taking the cream of a deposit in order to pay higher dividends. I am not surprised to hear the hon. member for Port Arthur say that he has letters from shareholders. Some of the shareholders of Little Long Lac, for instance, may not be satisfied that some of their operations are not paying dividends now and they may say that it is because they are low grading these mines. On that subject I will say this. If the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act has done nothing more than to extend the life of these mines, it will have done a great deal. In my own constituency in the past we had a spectacular and rich gold mine. This mine was mined out in a short period of time because, in my opinion, they were high grading the mine in order to pay big dividends every year.
Today the tendency is the other way and the work in the mines is planned. We are trying to conserve our ore as much as we can, but even with the subsidies, sometimes we cannot succeed in mining low grades. We have a good example in the Malartic gold fields where the grades were fairly high a few years ago, but because the price of gold has been going down every year and the cost of production has been increasing-the subsidy has certainly not been increased over the last three or four years, in fact it has decreased-they are today having to bypass some of these ore beds because the grade is too low. They would like to get at this ore but it is not possible. I feel sure we appreciate the fact that the mines are doing everything they can to take out all the ore possible, without of course making deficits, but unfortunately-and maybe some shareholders do not appreciate this fact-if the mines, for instance East Malartic, were to go ahead and mine out high grade ores which would bring large dividends for three or four years, these beds might be mined out in about ten years. However, the operations are now planned and we know that this mine in 25 years from now will probably still be in operation if the price of gold does not go down.
The minister perhaps should have mentioned that every gold mine receiving the subsidy from the department must file with the department plans showing its underground workings. It is quite easy for the engineers in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys to check those plans. It is not that easy to bypass, let us say, an ore bed which is of high grade ore today and to go back to it later, because there is a question of refill underground and so forth. We know for a fact that some of the low-grade ore beds would not be mined later even if the price

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
of gold were higher. We would not be able to mine them because at this time we have to bypass them. If there is a tendency, therefore, to mine the lowest grade possible today, it is a good thing for the communities in the vicinity of those mines and it is a good thing for the industry. I do not think we should worry about this question of the mines attempting to mine as much of the ore as they have in the ground, even if they have to mine some low grade ore.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I think some of the remarks just made by my hon. friend put my own comments a little bit out of context. The point I was trying to make was that in those mining communities which I know in Ontario there is a certain hostility which has been latent but which has bubbled to the surface between the men who work in the mines and the management of the mines. This may not be the case in Quebec but in Ontario there is a mutual suspicion existing between these two groups. I am sure the minister knows that in some of these mining communities the wages paid by the gold mines do not compare with those paid by the base metal mines and there is a certain bitterness on the part of the miners. They wonder if the government is giving subsidies to the mines why more is not coming to them, and they think perhaps one of the reasons is because the companies are using these moneys to pay large dividends. You can see how the suspicion grows amongst the miners that because the companies pocket a large part of these subsidies they do not get their share. There is much talk about the stopes which are cemented off in which there is supposed to be all kinds of high grade. The hon. member may laugh, but I would like him to go to Timmins and spend an evening in conversation with some of the miners there. They will tell him stories about the stopes in the McIntyre and Hollinger mines.
One of the points which the hon. member just made, as the minister knows, is something of which we are well aware in my riding. We inspected the operations of the McLeod Cockshutt mines and they have done a wonderful job in lowering production costs so that they might handle low grade ore. We hope they will be able to continue to do so.
I did not want my remark to be extended to cover cases of which I know where the mines operate on fairly low grade and to be understood to mean that because of these subsidies they should be shoved right out of the picture. I think it is simply a case of
restoring the confidence of the mining communities with respect to the fact that the mines are getting a subsidy on a completely honest basis.


Paul Comtois: With respect to the points raised by the hon. member for Port Arthur,
I take it that he does not expect me to answer them all at this time. I can assure him that his suggestions will be considered and that I plan to discuss them with him personally at the first opportunity.
I see that the hon. member for Kootenay West has now returned to the chamber, and I am pleased to give him the information for which he asked with respect to what was going on in British Columbia this year so far as our geological surveys are concerned.
We have nine parties this summer in British Columbia, firstly, one in the Cry lake area and another in the northwestern part of the province, which latter party will endeavour to resolve the critical geological problems which arose following operation Stikine. Another one is in the Iskut river area and another in the Quesnel area; there is another in the Kettle river area and one in the Squamish area; another in the area of the east coast of Vancouver island and another commencing a detailed study of the granitic rocks of Passmore and Burton areas of southern British Columbia; and, lastly, a party in the Testa river area. In addition four parties are operating jointly in British Columbia and Alberta.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I believe I should answer the hon. member for Laurier (Mr. Chevrier) in French. The hon. gentleman raised the same point this year as last year-
However, I will begin by answering the first point he has raised, regarding the name of the new lake formed by the construction of the St. Lawrence seaway. The hon. member asked me to give further consideration to the decision taken by the Canadian board on geographical names, and suggested that this new lake be called lake Long Sault to commemorate the historic exploits of Dollard and other heroes.
I must say that two little towns, Mille Roches and Moulinette have disappeared by reason of the flooding made necessary by the construction of the St. Lawrence seaway and that the new town which has replaced them has already been called Long Sault. I wonder why this new lake should be called Long Sault since the town which is situated next to it already bears that name.
In the province of Quebec we have the city of Three Rivers. This does not prevent the St. Lawrence river which passes by this
3846	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys city to be called St. Lawrence and not Three Rivers. I do not think anybody has ever raised any objections in this respect.
Since the new town has already been called Long Sault, it does seem to me that the name suggested by the Canadian board on geographical names and also adopted by a similar body in the United States, that is lake St. Lawrence, should be agreeable to everybody and that no further objection should be raised to this name being given to the new lake.
In any event, I am not opposed to giving further consideration to the matter and to discussing it with my officials.
The hon. member for Laurier also dealt with a matter which is close to his heart, that is the limitation of the border between the provinces of Ontario and Quebec in lake St. Francis. This is a matter he did not succeed in settling when he was a member of the cabinet. Yet, I know he took many steps in this direction. As a matter of fact, I met him personally on several occasions, and we often spoke about settling that matter. I am still dealing with it, as I have the privilege of being on excellent terms not only with the premier of Ontario, but also with the premier of Quebec. I hope that if I succeed in solving the problem, my hon. friends opposite will not begrudge me my acquaintance with Mr. Duplessis, for it would be a boon for the hon. member for Laurier. In any case I can assure him that the matter is still under advisement, and that I may point it out from time to time to other provincial premiers, because it must be admitted that the problem is entirely under provincial jurisdiction. As we cannot impose any decision on the provinces, I believe that the best way to settle the situation is to mention it frequently, and to bring up the matter at every meeting with these gentlemen, so as to lead, perhaps, to an opportunity of starting a discussion in which many other problems may be solved. Also I hope to be able to say one day to the hon. member that the matter is settled at last. That would make me one up on him. At all events, it is essential to settle the matter, for everybody would benefit from such settlement.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I only want to say a few words on the matter of interprovincial borders. The Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys must admit that the hon. member for Laurier certainly did not want


to imply that he was responsible for the fact that the boundaries were not delimited. Indeed, I think this situation is of interest to all Canadian citizens, and more particularly those of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, and it would be desirable to define, once for all, this sector of the boundary line between the provinces of Ontario and Quebec.
I am quite familiar with the situation, for the great distinction befell me to establish the demarcation line between Quebec and Ontario, beginning at the centre of lake Timiskaming and going up to James bay. That was several years ago, and when I talked with the Quebec government surveyor he expressed his desire at the time for a very early settlement of this demarcation question between Quebec and Ontario, which we have been discussing this afternoon.
I think the member for Laurier merely wanted to make a timely suggestion to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Osias.-J. Godin: Mr. Chairman, I certainly lay no claim to any special significance in my remarks, but I would like to hear the comments of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys on the problem I mentioned to him. Indeed, I went so far as to make my remarks in French. Now, I wonder if the minister is prepared to answer my questions.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I apologize to the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Godin). It was not for lack of good intentions that I did not answer his questions; unfortunately I was distracted by other matters. I do apologize.
In the matter of grants for geological research, I am happy to say that if Sudbury university submits its application to my department, it will be accepted on the same basis as those of other universities.
I can now supply the member with a list of the universities presently receiving grants from my department. In connection with the same question, there are universities in Quebec which obtain grants from the department. (Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
195.	Mineral Resources Division-Administration, Operation and Maintenance, $230,700.
Armand Dumas: On this item, Mr. Chairman, I am aware that this division is responsible for the publication of a large number of reports and publications. Although all of them are very interesting there is one in particular which was published last winter

and which must have entailed a great deal of work. I should like to mention, in particular, this publication which is called "Minerals, Canada and the World". This is an excellent publication and it is one about which I should like to say a word at the present time. I should like the minister to tell me whether this publication, which is a graphic presentation of the Canadian minerals industry in relation to the world minerals industry, has been distributed to high schools and universities. I think the deputy minister mentioned, either in the course of a committee meeting or earlier, that it had been distributed, and that the Canadian Metal Mining Association had been given a number of copies to distribute to its members. I should be very interested to find out whether this publication has been distributed to high schools and universities and, if it has not, whether it would be possible to distribute it at least to schools of mines and universities across the country.


Mr. Comlois:: Some copies have been distributed to a few high schools, but our supply is almost exhausted. University libraries have some copies. I do not know how many are still in store, but the hon. member may have some suggestions to make as to how we could distribute the balance we have in hand. I do not think it is the intention to have larger numbers printed.


Armand Dumas: Possibly if the minister has some copies left they could be distributed. I understand, of course, that in a year or two the publication will be out of date. Nevertheless, it is an excellent publication and those copies which are left could be sent to the schools of mines. We have a few schools of mines across the country and I am thinking particularly of the one in Hailey-bury. The schools could in turn distribute them to their students. I think that in the next few years we should revise this publication and bring it up to date.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I will see what we can do about that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and Mapping Branch-
196.	Surveys and mapping branch administration, $79,110.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I noticed that when the committee was considering the question of aerial maps there were some suggestions made that this service, and the availability of it, and the type of things that could be got from the aerial photographs, would have a much wider response in the country if more was known about it. I just wondered whether
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the department had taken this point into consideration; whether they had ever considered publishing, for example, a pocket guide to the aerial photographs available from this particular branch. I just wondered whether the requests the department gets for aerial photographs indicate that there is a fairly wide recognition of this service across the country. Can people who have a summer camp in a particular area get an aerial photograph covering that particular region?


Paul Comtois: We have an aerial photo library and the prints are all there. As far as a pocket map is concerned, I do not think it would be very practical because in six months or a year it would be outmoded, out of date.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The difficulty with most people who are interested in this information and are not professionals in any sense is that they bungle because they do not exactly know how to inquire for some things, how to define exactly the picture that they want. What sort of arrangements has the minister's department so that their questions or requests have some sort of pertinence or relevance? It is just a question of public relations in essence and the possibility of extending this service. Many people do not know about it, or if they do know about it they have only a vague idea of it.


Paul Comtois: I will take note of the suggestion made by the hon. member.


Mr. Chambers:: I would like to say one word. The minister might take into consideration maps prepared by the department and make them more easily available to the public. They are excellent maps but I know in the city of Montreal there is only one store in which you can get them. The majority of people do not know where they can get them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geodetic survey of Canada-
197.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $690,761.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I have been told by an expert in the field that at the present time Canada is not producing annually a single expert who can be called a geodesist in the sense that the United States is producing them, and I understand the United States is producing only a handful; whereas the Russians are producing them in several hundreds. I wondered whether the branch was aware of this problem and whether there is any kind of in-training scheme within the department?
3848	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Paul Comtois: In our department we have an in-training school or scheme and we have a certain examination which applicants can pass and qualify for the position.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is no shortage of
personnel?


Paul Comtois: They are really not easy to get; we have to train them.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I understand that there is more formal education of such people carried on in Russia and in the United States. I just wondered whether any consideration had been given to encourage universities to set up certain training, or is it practical?


Paul Comtois: It has been studied recently. We have discussed these matters many times during the current year and we are discussing the matter with some of the universities at the present time.


Armand Dumas: I have a very simple question on this item. I notice that during the fiscal year 1956-57 we had 16 parties in the field, seven on triangulation, one on shoran, four on precise levelling and four on astronomy and base line. Can the minister tell how many field parties we have this year, and can he tells us if we have any on shoran?


Paul Comtois: I can answer the hon. member. This summer we have 170 university students who will assist permanent departmental officials in a total of 83 field parties, who will conduct topographical, geodetic and hydrographic surveys.


Armand Dumas: I am most interested in geo-detics. How many are on the geodetic survey, triangulation and so on?


Paul Comtois: Fourteen.


Armand Dumas: Are there any on shoran?


Paul Comtois: No.


Armand Dumas: There are none because I understand most of the mainland in the north has been covered by shoran.


Paul Comtois: And the islands.


Armand Dumas: And the islands also?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Topographical Surveys, including expenses of the Canadian Board on Geographical Names-
199. Administration, Operation and Maintenance, $1,829,769.
Armand Dumas: I understand that during the fiscal year 1956-57 we issued 280 topographical maps. Some of them were conversions and reprints. Can the minister tell how many


were issued in 1957-58 and how many were reprints and conversions, if those figures are available?


Paul Comtois: I cannot tell right away but I will get the information and tell the hon. member later on.


Armand Dumas: How many topographical survey field parties are in the field this summer?


Paul Comtois: Thirty.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
200. Construction or acquisition of equipment, $100,000.
Armand Dumas: Can the minister tell how many hydrographical ships the department owns at the present time and how many do we rent every summer, or how many ships are rented this summer?


Paul Comtois: This year we have seven ships and three chartered ships.


Armand Dumas: Is the Baffin the newest ship we have?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Armand Dumas: Is the department planning to build more ships?


Paul Comtois: We are planning.


Armand Dumas: I hope the necessary money will be voted so that the department can build more ships because this service is really doing a good job and more has to be done. Perhaps some of the ships that have been used for many years could be replaced and we could build some new ships to replace those which are outmoded or not very useful now.


Paul Comtois: Some of the ships cannot be repaired and it is my intention to discuss the matter with the officials of my department who will recommend the planning, the acquisition or the building of new ships in the coming years.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I just wonder whether the minister could bring us up to date on the cost of getting the Baffin back into service?
I would also be interested in knowing whether there have been any changes in personnel on the Baffin as a result of the accident. I should also like to know the steps that have been taken to ensure that control of the ship is such that we do not have a repetition of that accident.


Paul Comtois: As a round figure, the cost of repairing the Baffin and putting her into service again is about half a million dollars.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Douglas Mason Fisher: How much of that is for actual repairs to the ship and how much for damaged equipment which is actually used in carrying out the Baffin's purpose?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: This amount accounts only for repairs and salvage.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Have there been any changes in the personnel as a result of the accident or are the same people carrying out the work?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I have a note that certain personnel changes have been made as well as certain changes to improve communications between the chart room and the navigating deck. Additional instruments have also been installed in both the chart room and the navigating deck to assist in observance and to detect any dangerous areas or obstacles.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I do not know whether I should ask it on this item or the next one, but what is the practice with regard to hiring the ordinary personnel for such survey ships? Where does the department get the people? Does it submit a request to the national employment service or is there some other list that is used in order to fill out the crews on these boats?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: The national employment service, the newspapers and the best means a good minister can find.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
203.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts, including a grant of $500 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $754,674.
Armand Dumas: I see that this item includes a grant of $500 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry. This institute has done a lot to promote surveying and photogrammetry. In view of the fact that the grant is now very small and also in view of the fact that in the committee the minister said he was very sympathetic to the idea of doubling or tripling the grant, I should like to ask him if he has given more thought to the matter and if we can expect that next year the grant will be increased.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: This matter will be studied in the next month or two.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
204.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys, $54,200.
Armand Dumas: I understand that during
1956-57 part of the British Columbia-Yukon-Northwest Territories boundary was resurveyed for a distance of 70 miles. Is any work being conducted this year? At the same time possibly the minister can tell me what progress has been made on the Saskatchewan-Northwest Territories boundary and when the
department intends to start on the Manitoba-Northwest Territories boundary.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: This year we are working on the British Columbia-Yukon-Northwest Territories boundary. The expenditure for that survey is $29,900. There is also an amount of $19,000 for survey work on the Manitoba-Northwest Territories boundary and an item of $17,000 for survey work on the Saskatchewan-Northwest Territories boundary.


Armand Dumas: Can the minister tell me the average cost per mile of these surveys?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No. It depends on the circumstances, the weather, the site, the obstacles and so forth.


Armand Dumas: I presume that when a seasonal job is finished the department is eventually in a position to know what the cost per mile is.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes. I can obtain that information for the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey of Canada Geological surveys-
207. Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in the geological sciences, an amount of $1,500 for Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and an amount of $40,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $2,695,905.
Armand Dumas: The hon. member for Nickel Belt asked the minister a question in French and the minister answered but I think he could have been more precise. I do not wish to ask for the names of all the universities in Canada which are receiving grants in aid of geological research. However, in Quebec we do not have very many universities and I think the minister should be able to tell us the names of the universities in that province receiving grants, whether the grants are given directly to the universities and whether they have always been accepted by them.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I can give some information. Last year McGill University received a grant. This year McGill University and Ecole Polytechnique are receiving grants.


Armand Dumas: That is the University of Montreal.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes.


Armand Dumas: Have there been any grants to Laval University in the past or is there any at present?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: In 1952.


Armand Dumas: Only in 1952?
3850	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Mr. Comiois: For the year 1952-53, $2,000.


Armand Dumas: I suppose these grants are paid directly to the universities concerned?


Paul Comtois: Through the registrar of the university.


Armand Dumas: Through the registrar of each university.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In connection with the matter raised by the member preceding me, can the minister give us some indication of the liaison that the department has with the universities with respect to the possibilities of extending these grants? I gathered from the paper supplied me by the deputy minister that one of the problems in extending the grants' is that there is a shortage of facilities and staff. The suggestion is made several times in that report that if some of this money went towards a certain kind of teaching fellowship and the emphasis was not too much on research but on teaching it would be a great aid to some of these departments.
One of the other points that is made is that quite often these amounts are given in aid of research to schools that are short of laboratory equipment facilities. It seems that $40,000 is a very small sum for supplying equipment to some of these geological departments. Is the department considering doing more in that particular line in order that more benefit will be derived from these particular grants?


Paul Comtois: We have $10,000 more in the supplementary estimates for this year, and that makes $50,000. We are contemplating an increase in that item in next year's estimates which are already under preparation.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Last year the minister was kind enough to give us the figures on the turnover in geologists in the geological survey. The figures were rather grim, and I wondered if he could give us the figures for this year on the number of new people taken on by the geological survey and the number of geologists who have left the department?
I am speaking of permanent appointments rather than those doing part-time work during the summer.


Paul Comtois: We cannot give that information offhand, but we can prepare the information and send it to the hon. member.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In so far as the representations of the geological association of Canada are concerned, the minister made a point several times, both in the house and in the committee, of the fact that there was an extension of the field services in order to take care of postgraduate and senior undergraduate students. Now, this promises to be a continuing 

problem. Are there any plans beyond this year's estimates which indicate there is going to be a further step-up or a sort of long term program to take care of the point indicated here.
I think it was the hon. member for Ville-neuve who made the point that in a buoyant economy, with more opportunities for geologists, we will once again have difficulty in hiring geologists for our surveys. When the economy is not so buoyant, it will not be so difficult to hire geologists. Is the department planning from a sort of pessimistic point of view to take care of more and more students? If that is not done, Mr. Chairman, I suggest there will be a squeezing off of the supply at the undergraduate level. Students will hesitate to go into these fields.


Paul Comtois: We are actually attempting to find out what we can do. We are planning to increase this amount for next year's estimates, 1959-60, but we do not know by how much as yet. The problem has to be discussed between our offices and many other persons. It is not easy to say right now that our program will be a 5-year program or a 10-year program; we must proceed by degrees.


Douglas Mason Fisher: As a final point, I should like to make this suggestion: I feel, and I am sure the minister feels and some of the people in this geological survey feel that they have one of the least noted departments in government, despite its great importance and the tremendous contribution it has made in the past. I should like to suggest to the department that they make approaches to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and its television service in order to have presented sometime during the coming winter a couple of fairly long programs which would cover this geological survey work. This work is tied in with our whole historical development and has a certain romance about it, right from the days of Logan and the early pioneers right up to the present time. The very early material could be presented in a sort of photomontage form and that would tie in with some of the documentary material which would bring the program up to the present. The program could develop the tremendous contribution that this survey has made, for example, to the oil development in the prairies or the gold developments in fields such as Red Lake and the whole development of the Noranda area.
I think this would make a wonderful television program and would be a great means of advertising this oft-forgotten part of the government service. It might be a means of stimulating a greater interest, especially amongst the young people, in choosing geology and associated fields of endeavour as a

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
career. I should like the minister to consider this suggestion and see whether he could take an aggressive part in going after something like that, to sell the C.B.C. on the idea that here is one of the best possible television subjects they could get.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch (including the former mineral resources investigation) -
209. Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,266,265.
Armand Dumas: I wonder if the minister could tell the committee whether or not some research has been conducted on the industrial uses of gold. This research may lead to great benefits to our gold mining operators if an intensive program were undertaken to find some industrial uses for gold. I can think of one and that is gold which is used as gloss for glare reduction. We also use gold as a pigment in paints and in lining of atomic reactor cores. They probably use small quantities. I am wondering if the results would not justify extensive research into this question, and whether or not the department might initiate such a program, perhaps jointly with industry. In this way, perhaps we could find more industrial uses for gold than there are at the present time. There are many uses for platinum and platinum is a rare metal. I am wondering if we should not pay more attention to this research on industrial uses for gold.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: We are exploring, with the Canadian metal mining association, possible research projects to be undertaken in connection with industrial uses of gold. We are actually doing that now.


Douglas Mason Fisher: A very important conference was held last week in the northern United States in connection with the effects of radiation upon human beings, in all its aspects, both industrial and defence. I wondered how many representatives the department sent to this particular conference, and whether or not they are preparing a report for the minister.


Paul Comtois: I am informed that we had no representatives there. Perhaps there were some representatives from the research council or from some other department.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to suggest to the minister that it is regrettable there was not a representative from his department because, from reading some of the proceedings, I gather that the whole question of the industrial uses of materials which give off radiation was gone into in all their aspects. I am sure his department must be involved through this particular branch
in connection with the whole field of uranium production and the metallurgical aspects of uranium after it moves from the ore stage to something that could be used for sludge for charging these various reactors that we are going to have. I just wondered what research is going on within the department on the various kinds of shielding that may be necessary in the milling and production of uranium ores. This matter, of course, ties in with the work that must be done by the Department of National Health and Welfare and probably by the research council and by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. But I should like to suggest that surely there is some responsibility upon this particular branch. I should like to know just in what direction this work is going.


Paul Comtois: I think this matter would come under the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare and the hon. member might discuss the matter at that time.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It is not a question of discussing it at that time or any other time, Mr. Chairman. The point is this. Is it not a fact that the mines branch is interested in uranium ores?


Paul Comtois: Yes; it is a fact.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Arising out of that and your research, you will be able to advise people who are working on these ores and on the uranium itself in the various metal processing stages, if you call it that, as to safety measures and the various controls that are necessary. I know you can say that it may be a Department of Labour problem or that it may be a problem for the unions that are involved. But is there any concern in your particular branch over this point, this handling of materials that have radiation in them? I gather from what I have been able to read that there is research going on in other countries and that other countries in the mining field are taking some responsibility in this regard.


Mr. Rynard:: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether I could say a word on this matter. A great deal of this work must be done on animals. I do not think very much research could be done in any of these uranium plants. It must be done in laboratories where the experiments are properly conducted and where they can be screened and the amount of radiation picked up. That is being done. Not so very long ago a conference was held down at Johns Hopkins University on that very point. I think that work is going ahead. I wonder whether that answers the question of the hon. member who has just spoken. I do not believe it can ever be carried on
3852	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys at any mine because they have not the proper facilities. Then the outside radiation would all have to be shielded because there is radiation in the atmosphere. There is radiation even in this room.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am grateful to the hon. member for giving me that information. But as 1 understand it the mines branch is interested in basic research in metallurgy and in various milling work. One of the greatest problems in connection with anything having to do with uranium is that there is radiation danger. It is much more serious there than it is in various other fields. What I mean is that it has genetical significance. It also has significance in connection with the blood and nervous systems. We know that research from the medical point of view has to be carried out by medical men. But surely the matter of shielding of the various devices that will be necessary for the protection of the people working with that metal must come to a certain extent under this particular branch, and there must be some cooperation with the people who are carrying on the biochemical and various other kinds of research on radiation effects. What I wanted to be assured of was that the mines branch was conscious of this problem and was interested in it.


Philip Bernard Rynard: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if that matter does not come under provincial regulation. I furthermore think that those suggestions have to come after this experimental work has been carried out in order to be of any value to the mines at all. That is my concept from a reading of the material that has come to hand on experiments made in the research laboratories of the United States particularly, where they are quite extensive.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Some of the states in the United States have gone to the trouble of banning the use of a particular little gadget used to X-ray feet in shoe stores. That fact indicates that there is a growing concern about this matter. I also know that amongst the people who mine, mill and handle uranium there is concern. I should just like to know that somewhere in Canada somebody is conscious of this problem. Since it falls to a certain extent upon any organization dealing in basic research in mining metallurgy, this is something for the minister to consider. I should hate to think that we had to wait until all the biological research was in -and I doubt if all the answers will ever be in in that particular field-before we get in our industrial plants some shielding of various kinds that is adequate. I should just like to let the matter drop with an assurance from the minister that the mines 

branch is interested or will take an interest in this particular field to see whether safety measures and advice in handling these particular metals are being worked on.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: We will take that matter into consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geographical Branch-
211. Geographical branch-administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $250 to the Canadian Association of Geographers and a grant of $3,500 to the University of British Columbia in aid of research in foreign geography, $315,728.
Armand Dumas: I am sure that all members were pleased to hear that the English edition of the Atlas of Canada will be ready for distribution in December. We were told in the committee that the purchase price of this atlas will be $25. This is certainly a very moderate price. In the committee we had an opportunity to see this very extensive book. I understand that the department has spent a good deal of time in preparing the atlas. The work was started in 1952, I believe, and it is now on the way to distribution. The minister also mentioned that the French edition will be available next year. I understand that in connection with a project like that it is impossible to have both the English and the French editions available at the same time. People will be greatly surprised to see this new atlas. It is really something of which the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys may be justly proud. Of course we are always anxious to have the French edition available. The minister said that all possible speed will be made so that this French edition may be ready for distribution to the public. I wonder whether the price will be the same as that of the English edition?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I think so.


Armand Dumas: The minister is not sure?


Paul Comtois: I am quite sure.


Armand Dumas: Thank you.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I rise once again to bring to the attention of the house under this item the excellent work being undertaken by the royal Canadian geographical society and to urge members of this house to join and to get their friends to join this society for two reasons, namely the excellent work it is doing in spreading a knowledge of the geography of Canada and, second, for their own information having regard to the responsibilities they have in this house.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In connection with the atlas I just wanted to ask this question. The estimated price is $25. I gather that this price

bears no relation to the actual cost. I gathered that when we were in the committee. I should like to know what is the estimated cost per issue of this particular atlas.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: The cost of the materials for the atlas is about $25.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Here is the point I want to make in connection with that matter.


Paul Comtois: Or slightly more.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There are a number of people entitled to free copies of this particular atlas. Each librarv which has full selective depository privileges will, unless something unusual is introduced, be able to put in a claim. I believe this amounts to at least 400 or 500 copies. If all libraries make this claim, and I know certainly that my library will put in a claim for a free copy, there are about 500 free copies plus those copies required for members and senators, each at $25 per copy. With respect to the schools, especially the high schools, which may want to use this book, are they going to be burdened with part of the charges for what we freeloaders are getting? If we are very substantially subsidizing this thing would the minister consider setting a lower price in order to get a wider circulation?
The second thing I would really like to know is what the printing run is going to be on this book and whether there will be quite an over-printing in relation to the anticipated demand.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I must point out that this atlas is not considered as an ordinary distribution. I do not think there will be any free distribution.


Douglas Mason Fisher: If the minister will check the regulations upon which the daily check list is based he will find that there are all sorts of institutions in Canada which have full depositorv rights. I understand that the only documents they do not get are documents considered as secret and confidential. This would not come into that particular category, so how is the minister going to deny them this particular book?


Paul Comtois: What the member says is partly true, but the minister in charge has full authority to decide upon what distribution should be considered as free.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In this particular case is the minister going to cut off the free distribution of this book?


Paul Comtois: That is actually what we intend to do.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I would like to suggest that that will be a blow to a lot of institutions in this country at both the university and
57071-3-244
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys lower levels. Such institutions find the right to pick up such publications extremely valuable and it is really the universities which will provide the best use of this atlas rather than sales through private means. Such institutions as schools are going to hesitate to order this book because of its price and I wonder if consideration could not be given to the whole problem with respect to price in this particular case.
We have never really had an excellent atlas in this country and this promises to be the answer. I still insist that from what I know of the distribution and purchase of books, as a librarian, that $25 will be a very large barrier in the way of wide distribution. I would welcome the freeloaders being cut off if the price could be brought down to something in the neighbourhood of $15 or $16. This, I think, would be much more within the grasp of the people. I do not want it to be suggested that I do not welcome this atlas. I think it will provide the best reference sources and the most thorough coverage we have in Canada but it is a fairly important matter and I would like to know how big a printing the minister is planning in respect of this work.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Five thousand for the first edition.


Douglas Mason Fisher: And is it planned to follow the edition and to correct any mistakes which may be noted by revised editions and more up to date editions? I am thinking particularly of 1962 and the new maps which will then be ready. Will there be a redistribution ol new issues and is the minister prepared to have new maps inserted for follow-up purposes?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes. Each sheet can be checked and changes made on every new issue prepared.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I would like to ask one question because owing to other responsibilities I had to leave the chamber for half an hour. Is it possible to discuss the question of standard daylight saving time, as a result of an agreement between the provinces for the convenience of the Canadian people?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I do not think this is a matter for which I alone am responsible. I will discuss the matter with my colleagues or raise the question at a cabinet meeting, but I do not feel I can take responsibility for it at this time.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the minister bring the matter to the attention of his colleagues

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys to see if something can be done, because I have received numbers of suggestions that it should be considered.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I certainly will, with pleasure. May I ask the Chairman to pass items 575, 576 and 577 of the supplementary estimates before we proceed to item 217.


The Chairman:: Is it the pleasure of the house that we proceed in accordance with the request of the minister?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Dominion Coal Board-
217.	Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $120,395.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, since the
early stages of confederation, the coal industry in Canada has always been a matter of concern to the government of the time, so much so that I sincerely feel it is free of any and all political interests. From time to time various bodies have been set up by both major parties to examine the Canadian coal situation and to establish policies on subsidies where and when needed. Many forecasts and outlines have been published and, for the benefit of some members, I have no hesitation in referring to the outline of the trade as presented by my predecessor in 1955 and recorded in Hansard on Monday, July 5 of that year, wherein the picture of the future was presented. Because of the increased interest in Canadian coal such bodies as mentioned above have invariably concluded that financial assistance should be provided by parliament to promote the movement of coal from the mines of eastern and western Canada to the markets of Ontario and Quebec, both as a measure of self-sufficiency and for a more equitable financial treatment.
After a period of trial and investigation as to cost, a policy was established whereby the government would assist towards the cost of transporting Canadian coal. This would permit the consumer in specific areas in central Canada to purchase coal at the same price as he would have to pay for imported coal. It should be noted however, that as these conditions changed so did the rates of assistance so that the widest area within reasonable limits could be provided with the Canadian product. However, in two cases, assistance has already been provided outside the areas of competition, but only where there was assurance of substantial business.
The Canadian product is not subsidized to sell for less than other coals, nor is it subsidized as against any other form of energy. The assistance granted only permits
the consumer in central Canada to choose between Canadian and imported coal at the same price level. It became apparent earlier this spring that the demand for coal during the year could be expected to decline because of continuing dieselization of railways, the increasing competition from other fuels, the comparatively mild winter and the increasing amount of secondary hydroelectric power from high water conditions, plus new hydro plants.
Faced with these conditions, the competitive area was widened, potential market areas received an increase of the maximum payments set out in orders, and the existing preference in favour of Canadian coal was doubled to 20 per cent where purchases by government departments were concerned. This resulted in a substantial expansion for Canadian coal in Ontario outlets.
In spite of this assistance, Canadian coal production in the first six months of this year was 714,000 tons or 11 per cent below that of last year, and imports of coal during the same period were down by 4,731,000 tons or 51 per cent, clearly showing a great reduction due to the causes noted earlier. The question, therefore, is how much more can be justifiably provided to benefit this one particular industry and to protect it fully against general changes in the national economy. In the case of Nova Scotia coal the maximum subvention provided is $5.25 per ton plus a further protection of 50 cents duty per ton on imported competitive coal or a total of $5.75 to move one ton to the present limit of the subvention area. In 1957, to provide one day's work per man meant the movement of 2.6 tons at a cost of $5.75 per ton or a total of $14.95. This is the present limit only, and further extension to provide more employment would mean a higher cost per day's work provided.
Turning to western Canada, the present maximum assistance is $4 per ton with the same duty of 50 cents on imported coal or $4.50 in total cost of assistance or again a cost of $18 per man for his output of four tons. To find any new outlet for western coal, would mean moving the coal to Ontario at a subvention of about $9 per ton or more, bringing the cost per man per day to $36. New outlets for reasonable tonnage are being investigated but this demands both time and care if the future trade is to be built up on a firm and lasting basis. Keeping the above in mind, the report of the royal commission on coal concluded that there must be some limit to the assistance provided and the subvention should be in relation to the cost of imported coal. Though we agree, it is the feeling of this government that present
[Mr. Herridge.l
conditions have justified assistance at rates somewhat higher than those contemplated by the commission.
Since Sir John A. Macdonald provided the first measure of assistance in 1879, the Conservative party and the Liberal party have both maintained and extended the policy of assistance to our Canadian mines, and I can safely affirm that this assistance to the basic industry is a measure that will receive our continuing support. The present picture is not a pretty one and the causes of the industry's deterioration are not easily set aside by any government action since they are the natural interaction of developing forces. Free competition could be replaced by a policy of control and dictation and there might be some improvement, but even then, who can guarantee that the prospective dictator would not use his authority to favour gas or oil?
I have tried to show that the subvention policy as applied by this government as well as by our predecessors, has been of assistance to the industry. The amount of money the committee is being asked to vote, however, may not be sufficient to maintain the present scale of assistance, since there have been changes in the economics of the industry in the last few months.
May I say that the administration of government assistance has been in the hands of the dominion coal board which has also the even more important duty of maintaining a constant study of the coal situation and of recommending to the government such measures as, in their opinion, would be of benefit to the industry. The administration vote presently before you is, I submit, a modest sum to pay for the services and work done by this board.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be very brief because we had an opportunity in the committee to review extensively the activities of the dominion coal board. We had a report presented and read by the chairman-a very enlightening report-and we were able to question the officers of the department, because the board is considered as a department.
I wish at this time to congratulate the officers and the staff of the coal board for the excellent job they have done since the board was organized and, as the minister, stated I think the board has been very useful not only to the industry itself but to all those who depend on this industry.
Unfortunately, at the present time the prospects of the coal industry are not so bright. The prospect in the future may be brighter, that is, let us say, in 10, 15 or 20 years, but in the meantime, bearing in mind that we shall need this coal in the future, 57071-3-244J

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys we have to try to keep the mines we now have in operation. I understand that in western Canada many mines have closed in the past few years, but this is due mainly to the	fact that	the	railways	have discontinued using coal. The dieselization program has had a very adverse effect on the sales of coal in that part of the country. In the	maritimes,	the	situation	is a littledifferent, because	most of the	coal finds
markets in the province of Quebec and in eastern Ontario. Of course, probably 50 per cent of the coal produced is used in the maritime provinces themselves.
There is a chance that the coal industry may come through these difficult years, particularly if we can increase the consumption of	coal in	the	maritime	provinces
themselves, and I am thinking now of the thermal electric power plants. I was pleased to hear the minister once again virtually guarantee that coal will be used in the thermal plant at Saint John, and we certainly hope that the government will insist on this. We do not want to hear next year that oil is being used in this plant at Saint John instead of coal, because it is recognized that oil and gas are the biggest competitors to coal. This competition from oil and gas is one of the problems which the industry faces today. I read a very interesting article in the Financial Post which appeared on August 2, 1958. When the minister of mines of Nova Scotia appeared before the Borden energy commission he had a few interesting remarks to make. He said:
Unless the province's coal industry-
And he was talking about Nova Scotia.
can be maintained in the next 10 years either by government assistance or legislation, the industry will not be able to take its place in the supply
or pnprtjv V-,xr loon	^
of energy by 1980.
In 1980 the demand for coal may be much greater, and I understand the idea now is to try to keep our coal mines in operation. I hope this government will do its best to help the coal mines because we of the Liberal party are proud of what our government did to help the coal mines, not only in the maritimes but also in the west. The minister of mines of Nova Scotia also, according to this article:
Suggested some form of assistance to submarine mines to maintain coal in a competitive position with natural gas.
Urged sufficient freight subventions to make coal competitive with imported residual oils. This includes residual oils made from imported crudes.
The minister of mines of Nova Scotia recommended that the dominion coal board should maintain its entity and that the board should not be merged with any other organization that this government may think
3856	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys of organizing in the future with regard to energy. We were not told that in the committee but we were given to understand that even if this government organizes a board to look after energy in this country, it is important that we keep our dominion coal board. I insist on that. I think that all members, not only members from the maritime provinces but from the west, should insist on this, even if the production of coal is low in that part of the country. Later on we hope that thermal electric plants in the west will use more coal, so there may be a revival of the industry in that part of the country. Those members who are interested in the coal mining industry should insist that if ever a board is formed to take over the control of energy in this country the dominion coal board should not be touched but left apart so that it can continue to render the service to the coal industry of this country that it has rendered in the past.


Mr. Robichaud:: I do not want to delay the committee because it is six o'clock, but in the course of his remarks I understood the minister to say in quoting from the Gordon report that there should be a limit to government assistance to the industry. In saying this was the minister also expressing government policy? Is it the understanding of the present government that there should be some limit to the assistance given to the industry?


Paul Comtois: I did not quote the Gordon report.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Does the minister agree that there should be some limit to the assistance given, or has he in mind further assistance to the industry?


Paul Comtois: Well, in the past year we have demonstrated on several occasions that, according to the circumstances, assistance could be and should be increased.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
219. To provide for subventions in respect of eastern coal under agreements entered into, or to be entered into, pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $1,700,000.
Hédard-J. Robichaud: I notice in the 1957-58 estimates there was an item of $250,000. What portion of this estimate has been paid out or spent in the past year?


Paul Comtois: None has been paid yet because the provincial claims have not been received.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: What about the $1,700,000 for 1958-59? Do I understand also that none of this money has been paid out?


Paul Comtois: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Joseph Pierre Albert Sévigny: This completes the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. Shall we call it six o'clock? The next items to be studied are the estimates of the Department of Fisheries, but we have only about two minutes ahead of us.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I inquire what the business is for Thursday and perhaps the minister might tell me what it is for Friday and Saturday as well.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we commence with the estimates of the federal district commission and the privy council; then those of the Department of Fisheries, followed by the Department of National Health and Welfare, the Department of Citizenship and Immigration and the Department of National Revenue. I am not sure about Friday, but hon. members should be prepared to take transport and finance in addition to the ones I have mentioned.


Lionel Chevrier: If that be the case, has the government made up its mind as to what legislation will be dealt with on Monday?


Howard Charles Green: No, I cannot give the order.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to the order of the house passed on August 4.

Questions
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS	5- What steps have been taken to construct a
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Robichaud: 1.	Have public tenders been called for the following rural mail routes in Gloucester county, New Brunswick; (a) Robertville, R.R. No. 1; (b) Clifton, R.R. No. 1?
2.	If so, who submitted tenders and what were the respective amounts?
Answer by: Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):
1.	(a) No; (b) Yes.
2.	John Richard Peters, Clifton, $2,200; George Raymond Glendenning, Clifton R.R. No. 1, $2,300; Thomas E. Early, Clifton, $2,500.



ARMOURY BUILDINGS, GRANBY, QUE.

Mr. Boivin: 1.	What building or buildings are being used in connection with the armoury in the city of Granby, Quebec?
2.	Who are the owners of such properties and what rental is paid by the department for such buildings?
3.	Have ground tests been made and plans prepared for a new armoury?
4.	If so, in what location?
new armoury in the city of Granby?
Answer by: Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):
1.	The armoury building in the exhibition grounds in the city of Granby.
2.	The city of Granby, the owner of the building, receives an annual rental of $1,500.
3.	Ground tests were made on a parcel of land offered to the department by the city of Granby in 1955. No action was taken to acquire the site and plans have not been prepared for a new armoury in that city.
4.	Denison avenue, Granby, Quebec.
5.	Answered by No. 3.



TEXTILE INDUSTRY STATISTICS

Mr. Cardin: Supply-Items Passed [The following items were passed in committee of supply]:



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
Administration services-
193.	Departmental administration, $623,942.
194.	Explosives Act-administration, operation and maintenance, $113,055.
195.	Mineral resources division-administration, operation and maintenance, $230,700.
Surveys and mapping branch-
196.	Surveys and mapping branch administration, $79,110.
197.	Geodetic survey of Canada-administration, operation and maintenance, $690,761.
198.	International boundary commission, $75,092. Topographical surveys, including expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names-
199.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,829,769.
200.	Construction or acquisition of equipment,
[Stage Direction]
Canadian hydrographic service-
201.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's annual contribution of $4,100 to the International Hydrographic Bureau, $3,352,378.
202.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $545,714.
203.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts including a grant of $500 to the Canadian Institute of Surveying and Photogrammetry, $754,674.
204.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys, $54,200.
Map compilation and reproduction-
205.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,242,932.
206.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $18,500.
Geological surveys-
207.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in the geological sciences, an amount of $1,500 for Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and an amount of $40,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $2,695,905.
208.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $300,565.
Mines branch-
Mines branch (including the former mineral resources investigations) -
209.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $3,266,265.
210.	Construction or acquisition of equipment,
[Stage Direction]
Geographical branch-
211.	Geographical branch-administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $250 to the Canadian Association of Geographers and a grant of $3,500 to the University of British Columbia in aid of research in foreign geography, $315,728.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion Observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
212.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national committee for Canada of the International Astronomical Union, a membership fee of $500 to the International Astronomical Union and a grant of $3,500 to the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, $777,571.
213.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $695,075.
Dominion Astrophysical Observatory, Victoria, B.C.-
214.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $140,240.
215.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $156,150.
General-
216.	To provide for purchases of air photography and the expenses of the Interdepartmental Committee on Air Surveys, including purchases of equipment, $1,900,000.
B-Dominion coal board-
217.	Administration and Investigations of the dominion coal board, $120,395.
218.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $8,580,250.
219.	To provide for subventions in respect of eastern coal under agreements entered into, or to be entered into, pursuant to the Atlantic Provinces Power Development Act, $1,700,000.
A-Department-
General-
575.	Polar continental shelf project, $78,450. Geological Survey of Canada-
Geological surveys-
576.	Administration, operation and maintenance-further amount required, including an amount of $1,000 for Canada's share of the cost of the geological liaison office, British commonwealth scientific conference, London, England, and an amount of $10,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $103,250.
577.	Construction or acquisition of equipment- further amount required, $15,000.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, August 21, 1958