1958-08-09

[Stage Direction]
Tenth report of standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.-Mr. McCleave.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce to the house that writs have been issued for the election of new members for the electoral districts of Grenville-Dundas in Ontario and Montmagny-L'Islet in the province of Quebec, and that the date of polling has been set for Monday, September 29, 1958.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Hon. Sidney E. Smith (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to announce that agreement has been reached with the government of Burma for the exchange of diplomatic representatives. We have welcomed the proposal of the Burmese government to accredit to Ottawa their distinguished ambassador in Washington, His Excellency U Win, who will be concurrently ambassador to Canada and to the United States. The Canadian government has been pleased to send as its first ambassador to Burma Mr. Arthur Menzies, our high commissioner to Malaya. Mr. Menzies will also hold these two appointments concurrently. He will maintain his residence in Kuala Lumpur, but he will visit Rangoon from time to time in order to establish the close relation which we are anxious to maintain with the Burmese authorities and the people of that country. It is not intended to set up an office in Rangoon at this time, but we hope that when we have overcome the present strain on our resources of personnel we shall be able to maintain an office in Burma.
Canada's relations with Burma in the United Nations, in the Colombo plan and in many other international organizations have always been particularly warm and friendly. We have a great admiration for the gallant
way in which the people of that country have struggled against the ravages of war and civil strife to create a stronghold of the democratic way of life in Asia. We look forward to even closer relations by reason of our exchange of ambassadors.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Essex East):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the house will welcome this announcement by the Secretary of State for External Affairs which now gives Canada the first opportunity of having a diplomatic mission in that part of southeast Asia. Have the minister and the government given consideration to having missions accredited not only to Burma but as well to some other countries, perhaps through the appointee in Burma, such as in Viet Nam, following a practice which has been pursued by Australia for some time?


Mr. Hazen Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, we in this group also welcome the announcement by the minister. We believe it is a further indication of Canada's growing stature in international relations as well as a recognition by the government and parliament of the increased need for developing our relations in southeast Asia. I express the hope to the minister that following this important step Canada will take action to recognize China at an early date and set up diplomatic services for Canada in that country. We welcome this move as a further step toward improving Canada's relations with this increasingly important part of the world.



MIDDLE EAST


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs if it is the intention of the government that the Canadian delegation attending the extraordinary session of the assembly of the United Nations, scheduled for Wednesday morning next, will be headed by a member of the government. Is it the intention of the minister himself to head the delegation? Is he in a position to state to the house now, or prior to that meeting, what will be the attitude of the government of Canada, particularly in view of the statement made yesterday by the secretary general?


Sidney Earle Smith: It is my intention, Mr. Speaker, to attend the emergency session of

Inquiries of the Ministry the general assembly to be held on Wednesday morning next. I intend to leave Ottawa on Monday afternoon.
With respect to the second part of the question, in so far as it related to the observations that were made yesterday in the pro forma meeting of the general assembly, I would make these observations in general first, and then in particular. The discussions yesterday and the conclusions reached, and the statements made by the president of the general assembly, Sir Leslie Munro, and the secretary general, augur well for a session that will not be too inflammatory in character. There is some foundation for what I designate as a hope in that regard.
The secretary general did bring into the discussion yesterday afternoon a helpful statement. He expressed ideas-I cannot go any further than this-which are not unknown to the Canadian government. He expressed, to quote his own words, "some of the basic needs for action in the region", touching on the'need for a formula for non-interference by the states of the region in the affairs of their neighbours and some co-operative approach to their common economic problems, thus drawing attention to the evident truth that the key to the problems of the region rests largely in the hands of the states of the area themselves.
The secretary general refrained from going into details of his ideas at this time, but I am informed he will elaborate upon what he has in mind at the meeting of the emergency session of the general assembly. However, he did give a lead that should enable the general assembly to concentrate its attention on those problems that lie at the root of the Middle East trouble.
The atmosphere which he and others have created, as I said a moment ago, lays the foundation for some hope that the meeting next week will not be entirely of an inflammatory nature. In so far as the general assembly addresses itself not only to the immediate problem but to this basic problem, Canada will support that approach.



LEBANON


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. It arises out of a newspaper report appearing on the front page of the Globe and Mail of this morning indicating that the United States plans early next week to withdraw a marine battalion from Lebanon. I wonder whether the minister would care to comment on what appears to be a substantial indication of a very welcome reduction of


tension in this area. Is this move also designed, in the opinion of the minister, to assist in the mediation of outstanding disputes in this area?


Sidney Earle Smith: Mr. Speaker, I have no official knowledge of the information given in the press report to which the hon. member refers. I would express the hope, however, that it may portend an action on the part of the United States which would indicate that some measure of stability has already been established in Lebanon, enabling them to take this step. '



WATER RESOURCES


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: Mr. Speaker, on July 23 I announced in the house that the government had received reports on measures for the control of the waters of lake Winnipeg in Manitoba, and that I would be tabling copies as soon as they were available. I take pleasure now in tabling two copies of the three volume report, and in telling the house that copies of the first volume have been sent to members from Manitoba ridings and that additional copies are available, on request, for any other hon. member who wishes them.


Mr. Pickersgill:: May I ask the minister whether those reports are available in both official languages?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: No, Mr. Speaker.



RAILWAY ACT


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Railway Act to permit certain grants to be made from the railway grade crossing fund; to credit to the railway grade crossing fund in each fiscal year the sum of five million dollars to aid actual construction work for the protection, safety and convenience of the public in respect of crossings; and for certain changes in connection with the administration of the fund.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question

to the Prime Minister. My question is based on the following Canadian Press dispatch dated August 8:
Qualified Canadian sources said today prospects have brightened considerably for a huge marshalling by the western powers of gold and currencies to fight the Soviet economic offensive.
In view of the general interest in and importance of this statement, in relation to the maintenance and expansion of Canada's overseas markets, can the Prime Minister give the house any further information at this time?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I cannot add anything to the statement I made in the house on July 25. When dealing with the question of measures that might be taken in order to meet the Soviet trade offensive I pointed out and suggested that in so far as the international monetary fund is concerned, an increase in quotas of 50 per cent would bring about an additional $3,000 million in gold and useful currencies, the result of which would be to substantially increase the liquid assets backing world trade, and also that in so far as the international bank is concerned, if there were an increase in the guarantee by the participating countries from 80 per cent to 160 per cent of national capital subscriptions, that would provide an increase in the bank's borrowing power by several billions of dollars, and could be made to further assist any uncommitted countries.
That was the general suggestion. That was the suggestion referred to, as my hon. friend knows, in the Canadian Press article. But having regard to those considerations which I know will immediately occur to the hon. gentleman, I would not want to add anything further at this time other than that the suggestion I then made is one that I hope will receive consideration.


Hazen Robert Argue: May I ask
a supplementary question on this very important statement by the Prime Minister. Can we take it from the statement the Prime Minister has now made that Canada will be putting forward this proposition at the New Delhi meeting?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to say at this time what will be put forward at that time, but certainly the statement I made represents the viewpoint that will be generally advanced and is being advanced by the Canadian government.
Inquiries of the Ministry SHIPPING



MARINE ENGINEERS-INQUIRY AS TO CONCILIATION BOARD REPORT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: May I
direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Having regard to the announcement made this morning respecting the conciliation board report in the dispute between the national association of marine engineers and the great lakes shipping association, can the minister say what is the content of the report, and has he any comment to make on it at this time?


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, we received this report several days ago. It was a unanimous report by the conciliation board. We transmitted it ^o the parties concerned, and so far we have had no reaction from them.



NATIONAL PARKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. M. Horner (Jasper-Edson):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I am sure the minister is aware of the tragedy that occurred in Jasper yesterday, when a young girl was mauled to death by a bear. Can the minister assure the house that the fullest possible investigation will be undertaken immediately?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I should like to thank the hon. member for handing me a copy of this question as I came into the house. I heard a radio report this morning, and I can assure the house that the usual investigation will take place as is conducted on such occasions. At the same time I express the sympathy of all of us to the people associated with this dreadful tragedy.
I point out that the question of mauling, damage and death by bears in our national parks is a problem that seriously engrosses the attention of the department. We have engaged in an educational program to try to make the tourist population aware of the danger of these half-wild bears, but the educational program is only effective to the degree that people listen to what they are told and read the signs that are posted. However, I shall find out about the matter and make a full report if it is requested.

Inquiries of the Ministry NORTHERN AFFAIRS



ESKIMOS-REQUEST FOR FURTHER REPORTS ON DEATHS AT GARRY LAKE, N.W.T.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. A. Hardie (Mackenzie River):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources was good enough to table the report of an inquest into the death of a number of Eskimos at Garry lake in the Northwest Territories, actually in response to my request of a few days ago. In the sessional paper that was tabled yesterday I find that the R.C.M.P. and the Department of National Defence, through the R.C.A.F. which is flying in that part of the country, did certain work with regard to-


Some hon. Members:: Question.
*


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: You will get the question right now. First, I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence if the R.C.A.F. at Fort Churchill have made any report to his department with regard to the starvation of the Eskimos at Garry lake, and I also want to ask the Minister of Justice if the R.C.M.P. at Baker Lake have made a report.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the hon. member would ask one question at a time, please.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: If so, I want them tabled.


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: I shall be pleased to make inquiries in the department to see whether or not such a report has been received.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member may now ask his question of the Minister of Justice.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I should like to ask the Minister of Justice if he has received a report from the R.C.M.P. in the field at Baker Lake, in regard to the starvation of Eskimos at Garry lake.


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: personally have not received a report, but I shall make an inquiry to see if the commissioner has any information.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erharl Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: May I ask the Minister of Justice a question in connection with a report that under the anti-combines legislation he is looking into one particular case involving two newspapers in Canada? Is the minister able to inform the house when this investigation is likely

to be completed, and whether a report of the findings will be made available?


Edmund Davie Fulton: am not able to say, Mr. Speaker, with any certainty when the investigation will be completed. During the course of the discussion of my estimates I indicated the number of such investigations that are now under way. With respect to the second part of the question may I say that the tabling of the reports is governed by the provisions of the act, and we will comply with those provisions.



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Since most of the money lent by this government through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for the construction of small homes has gone to the large cities- and I think the best example of that fact is Toronto, which has received 37 per cent- what action is the government taking to ensure that a greater percentage of these funds will in future go to our people living outside these great metropolitan centres?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Minisier of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, some weeks ago steps were taken to have letters written to the mayor or reeve of every centre in Canada with a population of 1,500 or over, pointing out the availability of mortgage funds by direct loan from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. With these letters were sent various pamphlets. In addition, similar information was sent to the newspapers in all these smaller centres in Canada. The results to date have been very satisfactory. A far larger amount of money is being lent in the centres under 55,000 than was the case previously. I heartily agree with the hon. member that this is a highly desirable change.


John Richard Garland: I should like to ask a supplementary question. Do I understand that this sort of campaign is directed to all the centres under 55,000 in population?


Howard Charles Green: To all centres from 1,500 up to 55,000. One of the suggestions contained in the letter was that officials of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation would be glad to go to any particular centre and explain what type of assistance could be given. Advantage has been taken of this offer in a number of cases.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. On July 7 a motion was passed calling for the production of certain papers with regard to the beam station road. I wonder whether the minister could indicate what progress is being made with respect to the preparation of those papers?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I will check up on the matter and give the hon. member an answer on Monday.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources whether he is in a position to comply with the request I made on Wednesday that the answers should be given today to the two starred questions standing in my name on the order paper, because of the fact that his estimates are coming up for consideration later this day.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I have not yet in my possession the information requested.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask the minister whether he has noted that it is purely factual information that is asked for, and that the questions have been on the order paper for 19 days?

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Rea in the chair.


[Stage Direction]
Public printing and stationery-
321.	Departmental administration, $612,876.
Mr. Fisher:: There are several questions I want to ask in connection with this particular department, Mr. Chairman. There was a sessional paper No. 133(a) filed last session in answer to some questions I asked as to whether there were any orders for outside printing placed by the queen's printer in that year and, if so, what was the value of these orders in each of the provinces?
This type of information is old hat to some of the members who have been around the house for a long time, but I think it might
Supply-Secretary of State be worth pointing out that Ontario obtained $2,849,987 in outside contracts, and that Quebec obtained $1,452,562. After that the closest province was Manitoba, with $55,000 worth of contracts. I was wondering if the minister could tell us what attempts the Department of Public Printing and Stationery is making to spread these outside printing contracts over the area beyond the Ottawa-Montreal-Toronto region, where they seem to be concentrated at the present time, and if he would outline any difficulties in the way of letting some of these contracts out to the more distant parts of the country.


Mr. Courtemanche:: The main difficulty is due to the distances which would be involved. I would also point out that a city such as Toronto or Montreal is better equipped to do this work than are some other places.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would not wish to let that pass without comment. This problem has interested me from time to time, and this interest dates back to a period before the present Secretary of State took office. I think it will be found that there are many printing establishments outside the cities of Montreal and Toronto which are equipped to do much of the work now done by the queen's printer. In my community in Windsor there are a number of establishments which are capable of doing this work, and I know that from time to time they have sought to impress this opinion on the proper authority. I strongly support the implications of what has been said by the hon. member for Port Arthur.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I cannot accept that explanation, Mr. Chairman. I have discovered that in some of the smaller towns, in my own constituency, there are a number of printers who turn out weekly newspapers and take on jobbing work, and they feel that they are quite capable of undertaking some of these orders, though they find it difficult to discover just what work may be available and how it can be secured. We know there are a great number of printing plants in Canada, and that the minister could not canvass all of them, but we do feel it is important that the opportunities should be more widely extended.
We often hear from people in other provinces that Ontario and Quebec get far more than their share in most matters, and the figures I have just quoted indicate that after these two provinces the next on the list is Manitoba, with $55,000 worth of contracts. Then jump back all the way to Quebec, with $1,452,562. It would seem as though this particular department in its thinking is dominated by Ontario and Quebec. I may be

Supply-Secretary of State an Ontario member, but with all due respect, I think some opportunity should be given to areas beyond Ontario and Quebec.
I refuse to believe, for example, that in Vancouver, Edmonton, Regina and similar cities there are not establishments which have almost every facility which is needed to do this kind of printing, though I am aware that some of the modern presses equipped with the latest improvements may tend to concentrate in the eastern cities. However, much of the government's printing is very simple and involves the production of forms.
One of the other arguments I have heard advanced to explain why the contracts are so concentrated is that it is done on account of the low cost. That again bothers me, because it seems to me that certain parts of the country, for example Port Arthur, have mills turning out fine paper which is used right across Canada for printing. There are other paper establishments on the west coast turning out this quality of paper, so from this point of view of material availability there is no reason why printers in such places could not compete for some of this work if given an opportunity.
I suggest to the minister that we would appreciate it very much if when his estimates come before the committee next year we could see these orders which are now concentrated in Ontario and Quebec spread out into other provinces. Action by the department along these lines would be reflected in help being given to small printers in areas where such help is really needed.
One other point I wanted to make in connection with the operations of the queen's printer concerns the number of orders placed without competitive bids. This is a sheet running to 19 pages, and these lines are not double spaced. These pages list all the orders that were placed without competitive bids being sought between April 1, 1956 and March 31, 1957. We can appreciate that the queen's printer must do quite a bit of this, but the spectre that always arises is, how are these orders placed? I mean, what are the rules?
In leafing through the list I came to several conclusions. Perhaps the most important one is that again too many of these orders seem to be placed right in the Ottawa, Hull and Montreal area, and not enough in other places farther away. One is able to recognize that there might be a slight difference in cost, but I cannot see that it would be very great, especially when such orders are frequently for standardized products; and it seems to me the only extra cost would really be in writing letters to some of these firms.

I should like to know what the queen's printer is doing to spread more widely across the country these orders that are not placed by competitive bids. I should also like to know something of the ideas the queen's printer has in placing these orders. We would like to be assured that there is no question of patronage involved in this particular portion of the estimates of the department.


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for Port Arthur for the kind remarks he has made. I have taken his remarks into consideration, and will strongly recommend to the queen's printer that these contracts be more widely spread across the country outside the two central provinces, and will try to correct the situation in the future.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I should like some information arising from some previous questions I asked relating to the daily check list published by the Department of Public Printing and Stationery. I had asked what was the value of free distributions in the last financial year with respect to full depository privileges and selections depository privileges for various libraries. I was told that the full value was $35,000. This seems unbelievably small to me and I should like an explanation of it. Is that only for a partial year? It does not make sense because an institution like Queen's University has had full depository privileges for years despite the fact that the check list may have come out recently. I should like some information on that point.


Henri Courtemanche: I am informed that the amount of $35,000 was for the whole year.


Douglas Mason Fisher: If $35,000 covers the cost of all government publications sent to institutions over the course of a full year I should like to know how the figure is arrived at, because it is fantastically low in the light of the amount of publishing the government does. If you have 469 institutions which have selection privileges and approximately 32 institutions which have full depository rights, over a year they are accepting a tremendous number of government publications. If the value is only $35,000 I want to know something more about how the value is arrived at.


Henri Courtemanche: Except for 34 libraries which automatically receive all publications, the other institutions or persons authorized by law to receive them must make a special request for the publications.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Let me get this point clear. Take Queen's University, for example. It has full depository privileges. There are approximately 32 institutions in the same

position. If the total value is $35,000, then according to this Queen's University would receive roughly a little over $1,000 worth of government publications a year. Even according to the value stamped on government publications in the government catalogue that is an incredibly low figure. Just think of every publication from the dominion bureau of statistics. They have a value of anywhere from 10 cents to $2, and that library will receive all of them. We all know the amount of publishing the bureau does. My point is that this figure is extraordinarily low, and I should like a fuller explanation as to how it is arrived at.


Henri Courtemanche: The total amount represents all the publications that are distributed free but charged to our department at cost. That is the only part of the question I can answer.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Have some charges made to government departments for printing work let to outside contractors been challenged by the departments concerned, and has the queen's printer reduced the charge to the said departments and covered the loss by charges to other departments or by drawing on the revolving fund authorized by parliament? I have specific reference to complaints from the Post Office Department in the past few years.


Henri Courtemanche: May I ask the hon. member to repeat his question?


Douglas Mason Fisher: Have some charges made to government departments for printing work let to outside contractors been challenged by the departments concerned, and has the queen's printer reduced the charge to the said departments and covered the loss by charges to other departments or by drawing on the revolving fund authorized by parliament? I have specific reference to complaints from the Post Office Department in the past few years.


Henri Courtemanche: The answer is no.


Mr. Winch:: The answer is no? Mr. Chairman, has the minister at no time read the Auditor General's report or his statements to the effect that this has occurred with particular reference to the Post Office Department; that in very recent years the post office was given a charge on something that was let by the queen's printer on a contract and they challenged that, and the queen's printer according not only to the Auditor General's report but to other information did reduce the price below that which the queen's printer actually paid the outside contractor? Surely the minister would like to reconsider his answer when he said no.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Neophyte in the woodpile.
Supply-Secretary of State


Mr. Peters:: Fire the officials. Poor answer.


Henri Courtemanche: Can the hon. member tell me the amount involved? I am informed that it was a case that happened two years ago, and my officials do not remember the details exactly. If the hon. member can refresh my memory I may be able to answer.


Harold Edward Winch: No, I cannot do that on the exact amount involved. I did not expect this question nor the answer of the minister but certainly, sir, the evidence in the report and statement of the Auditor General shows that he is very much disturbed over this practice of the queen's printer.


Henri Courtemanche: I am informed that it is not the practice. It may have happened two years ago, but it has not happened this year.


Douglas Mason Fisher: My next question is in the same general area and has to do with the reply I received to another question I placed on the order paper. The question reads:
What criteria does the queen's printer apply in deciding on the selling price of a publication sponsored by a department?
The answer I received was:
Cost of printing.
Now, this is rather an oversimplification, and I want to point up the oversimplification by reading the answers I received to two other questions. The other questions were:
What arrangements are made with departments for rebates or alteration of price charged by the queen's printer where publications have a larger sale than anticipated through the queen's printer?
The answer to that question was "None".
My next question was:
If a publication does not sell up to its printing, how is this failure reflected in charges to the department concerned?
The whole problem here relates to the cost charged to government departments for the printing done by the queen's printer. The people who brought these complaints to me I think have very good reasons for feeling that they do not get the kind of service they want from the queen's printer, but that is not the point at issue here. As far as I am concerned I do not like the set-up of the charges; they are very fixed and definite. Some people may say that it does not matter, it is all part of the government whether it is a department or the queen's printer; but I think a department should know much more accurately than that the exact cost of what is printed for it by the queen's printer. If a department comes up with a best seller or something that has a very wide sale or distribution it should be reflected somehow to the department's credit. There is no reason at all why it cannot be.

Supply-Secretary of State
The Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources has put out an occasional work that has had a good sale, and I hope in future it will put out more that will have an excellent sale. I cannot see why this particular aspect should not redound to the credit of the department; instead of that we get just a flat answer, "Cost of printing". Costs vary tremendously, obviously, according to the number of copies of the particular edition, the type of lay-out, the pictures, the whole set-up and quality of the magazine or publication, as the case may be. Just the flat statement, "Cost of printing" does not have any regard at all for the aspects I have mentioned. It suggests that within the queen's printer's department there is a brittleness and an inability really to give cost figures that are in relation to the volume of printing and the amount of sales.
In this particular regard I think the queen's printer should make very strenuous efforts to provide departments with some sort of scale of charges so that if they produce something that sells well it is reflected in the charges to them. I would appreciate hearing a comment from the minister in that regard.


Henri Courtemanche: Details as to cost are given to each department only on request.


Harold Edward Winch: May I ask one question to
clarify an answer given by the minister a few moments ago. Do I understand the minister's reply to mean that irrespective of what may have happened in the past, if in the past year any department sent a request for printing to the queen's printer and this government agency was not able to fill it, because of being overburdened with work or for other reasons, and let that work out to an outside firm somewhere in Canada and then they billed the department concerned for the cost to the queen's printer; and that if an objection was received from the department to the price on the basis that it could have been done cheaper by the queen's printer himself, no adjustment was made with the department at a loss to the queen's printer? Is that the definite policy now, and how long has that been in effect?


Henri Courtemanche: There is no change in policy. The policy is to charge the cost of publications, whether printed by the queen's printer or outside.


Harold Edward Winch: Then, Mr. Chairman, we come to a very important point. The minister has now said that there has been no change in policy. The report of the Auditor General was

most critical of one phase of the work of the queen's printer. I refer now to the Post Office Department. Work was done for that department by contract let by the queen's printer. The Post Office Department queried that cost and an adjustment was made by the queen's printer at a price that was lower than the cost to the queen's printer on that contract that was let outside.
In view of the minister's statement now that there has been no change in policy, are we to understand that it is still the policy of the minister's department that on challenge they will reduce their own actual cost and recover the difference in some other field of endeavour?


Henri Courtemanche: I am informed that it was an isolated case that happened two years ago, and since that time it has not happened again.
(Translation):


Mr. Caron (Hull):: Can the Secretary of State tell us the total number of publications issued for sale by the queen's printer during the year 1957-58?


Henri Courtemanche: Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, we do not have this information at hand just now. However, we can supply it a little later.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Strange that the total number of publications issued by the queen's printer's department cannot be supplied. Are most of those publications charged to the various departments?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Are there any which are not charged to various departments?


Henri Courtemanche: No, Mr. Chairman.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Is the number of copies to be printed determined by the departments?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does the bureau print, in all cases, the exact quantities requested by departments, or can the queen's printer decide on his own to print larger runs?


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, the
queen's printer may print extra copies for sale to the public.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Does he often do so?


Henri Courtemanche: In most cases he does, Mr. Chairman.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Now, what were the queen's printer's receipts in 1957-58 on the sale of these publications?


Henri Courtemanche: About $750,000.


Alexis Pierre Caron: "About" $750,000! We are given only approximate figures! The Auditor General was right when he said that there should be changes at the printing bureau with regard to publication.


Henri Courtemanche: The exact figure is $760,595, Mr. Chairman.


Alexis Pierre Caron: And now, Mr. Chairman, could the hon. Secretary of State tell us what amount has been recovered by the queen's printer on waste paper sold to various firms like the Florence Paper Company Limited, and others of that kind?


Henri Courtemanche: Mr. Chairman, waste paper is not sold by the printing bureau, but by the Crown Assets Corporation.


Alexis Pierre Caron: At all times?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in all cases.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Were there large quantities of unsold publications that had to be disposed of as waste paper in 1957-58?


Henri Courtemanche: There were none in 1957-58, Mr. Chairman.


Alexis Pierre Caron: Were there any in 1956-57?


Henri Courtemanche: Nor were there any in 1956-57, Mr. Chairman.
(Text):


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I had intended to make rather extended remarks on these estimates, but as the public accounts committee is sitting and we have a most able colleague on that committee the many questions I would have asked on this subject will be asked by my colleague there. I am quite sure that when they are answered the result will be about as bad as it was in the case of the questions asked in that committee with respect to the building of the printing bureau.
However, I wish to support the hon. member for Hull in the remarks he made the day before yesterday, I believe, complaining about the situation in the printing bureau. Prior to his remarks and since I have had telephone calls from employees of the bureau saying that they heartily support what their member says, that conditions are most unsatisfactory, that the terms of employment are
Supply-Secretary of State unsatisfactory, that the method of examination is unsatisfactory and the method of promotion is unsatisfactory.
I would judge from what I have been told by people who have visited me and in telephone calls since the speech by the hon. member, who has received a great deal of support, that apparently there is very low morale and a great deal of dissatisfaction in the printing bureau, and I hope this question will be thoroughly explored in the public accounts committee, as well as working conditions in the building at the present time.
I want to confine my remarks this morning to one question. Some time ago I asked the Secretary of State a question to this effect: Did he know of any senior civil servant who had performed very little service for many years and had been on full salary? I will say frankly that one of the persons I had in mind was the deputy queen's printer. I asked that question on the basis of reliable information from persons very closely associated with the printing bureau. However, some days later the Secretary of State answered that he had not been able to discover any such condition. I want to ask him this question. Did the former deputy queen's printer resign a few days before the minister answered my question in the house?


Henri Courtemanche: I am informed that he was sick for the past two years, and was obliged to leave because of illness.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the minister mind repeating that?


Henri Courtemanche: I am informed that he resigned because of illness. He was sick for the past two years. He did not resign; he was transferred.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: To what department was he transferred ?


Henri Courtemanche: He was transferred to the civil service commission.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: He is now a paid civil servant employed with the civil service commission.


Henri Courtemanche: That is right.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Is the minister quite sure that this sickness had only extended over a period of two years?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: And before that he performed his full duties? He attended his office regularly?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes.


Harold Edward Winch: Be careful about your answer.

Supply-Secretary of State


Alexis Pierre Caron: Was not his sickness due to overwork imposed upon him by the queen's
printer?
(Translation):


Henri Courtemanche: I do not feel qualified to answer that question.
(Text):


Alexis Pierre Caron: Can the queen's printer not answer that through the minister?


Henri Courtemanche: My answer is the same.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, before this subject is departed from, as a former minister who was in charge of the bureau at the time this gentleman was performing his functions I should like to say that I never encountered anywhere in the public service a more devoted or hard working person than this gentleman.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I quite appreciate the comments of the former minister. I want to ask the Secretary of State a further question. Is the same treatment that was accorded the deputy queen's printer accorded all civil servants? Are they permitted to have two years' absence on full pay because of sickness?


Henri Courtemanche: He was away from the office for about nine months. When he came back he was unable to fulfil his duties, and that is why he was transferred.


Alexis Pierre Caron: What was his salary as assistant to the Queen's printer?


Henri Courtemanche: It was $12,000 a year.


Alexis Pierre Caron: What is his present salary?


The Deputy Chairman:: I think that question is out of the realm of the Secretary of State.


Alexis Pierre Caron: I want to show that he never asked for the transfer but that the transfer was arranged by the queen's printer. He was not transferred in accordance with his wishes, and the queen's printer must know what has happened to that man after he left.


Harold Edward Winch: Will the minister explain
whether it was just by a strange coincidence that after two years of illness-and we will not go into that, but I think it is going to be investigated-within a number of days after the question was asked by the hon. member for Kootenay West the transfer was arranged? Then the minister gets up and says he cannot find anyone in the position set out by the member for Kootenay West. Will the minister explain this most strange coincidence?


Henri Courtemanche: The question was asked one month ago, and I can assure the hon. member that the day I was appointed I was advised of the illness of the deputy queen's printer.
IMr. Winch.]


Harold Edward Winch: My question was, when was the transfer arranged? Was it not after the question was asked, so as to enable the minister to give an answer that would not be embarrassing?


Henri Courtemanche: This transfer had been under consideration for the previous four months.


Hazen Robert Argue: On what date was it made?


Henri Courtemanche: It was made on
August 1.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: That is just the point. My next question is, do the other employees of the printing plant receive the same consideration from the queen's printer with respect to leave of absence on full pay, in this case $12,000 a year, that has been received by the deputy queen's printer? Is this a common practice? Let us have fair play for everybody, no matter how humble they are.


Henri Courtemanche: His leave of absence was all because of illness.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: My point is, do other employees of the printing plant receive exactly the same consideration in connection with leave of absence for illness?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes, as does any civil servant.


Harold Edward Winch: Would the minister be prepared to make available the record of leave of absence for illness of this same individual for the last five years, the record of illness or the record of being away from the job during the past five years?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes, it will be tabled.


Alexis Pierre Caron: After killing himself on the job I am told that the man who was transferred has had his salary cut to half what it was when he was assistant to the queen's printer?


Henri Courtemanche: I have no knowledge of that.


Harold Edward Winch: If the man was too ill to carry on his responsibilities, what was the basis for his transfer to another position; illness?


Henri Courtemanche: He was transferred to a job that he was able to do because he was no longer able to carry on the work of assistant queen's printer.


Alexis Pierre Caron: It may help the minister if I tell him that the man is very happy since he has been away from the printing bureau.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wonder if the minister could provide us with the proportion of printing, both inside and outside, by the queen's printer that is in English and in French. I want a ratio such as 70 to 30 or 65 to 35.


Henri Courtemanche: We have no information about the amount spent for French or English publications.


Douglas Mason Fisher: My question is not directed to the amount in terms of money, it is the amount in terms of volume or lineage. Surely the queen's printer has some idea of the ratio of printing done in English and printing done in French.


Henri Courtemanche: They do not have any record because some printing is in English and some is in French and some is done in bilingual establishments.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Has it been the case within the last year or two that orders for printing in English, that is publications printed in English, were placed in printing shops in Quebec, what you might call French printing shops? In other words, has the queen's printei had French printers printing English publications?


Henri Courtemanche: There is no discrimination. They use the printers able to do the jobs, that is all.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It seems to me there is an important point here. I should like to put it this way. As I said before, you have $2,800,000 worth of outside printing in Ontario and $1,452,000 in contracts going to Quebec, but almost nothing in the other provinces. I should like to know why more of the printing of publications in English cannot be done in the other provinces. We realize that bilingual printers in Quebec may have some advantage in connection with French publications or publications that contain both French and English within the one cover, but it seems to me in all fairness that if the publication is purely and simply an English one, then that contract should go to English-speaking Canada. And if it is purely and simply a French publication, then it should go to Quebec. I know the line cannot be drawn too tightly, but I suggest the minister consider this particular point.


Henri Courtemanche: I answered this question a few minutes ago, and as I have said, in the future we will try to spread the printing of publications outside of the main provinces.


Lionel Chevrier: I cannot allow that last statement to go by without some comment. I wonder if the hon. member for Port Arthur realizes just how serious the statement is that he has made. He is reiterating in effect what has been said so often, that those who reside in the province of Quebec should be relegated to that province and no place else. I know that is not his intention, but when he makes the statement that English publications should be printed in English
Supply-Secretary of State Canada and French publications in the province of Quebec, I think that has pretty serious implications.
After all, there are in the province of Quebec printing establishments that could print pamphlets and the like in both languages. Some of these firms are composed of French speaking people who can, with competence and efficiency, print publications in the English language as well as in the French language. I am sure the hon. member -and I want to say this in fairness to him -did not have that intention in his mind. I certainly could not sit here and allow that statement to go by without challenging it in some form. I am sure it is not the intention of the printing bureau or of the minister that printing should be allocated in that way. There are in my opinion in the province of Quebec, as well as in the province of Ontario certain establishments such as Le Droit-


Paul Joseph James Martin: And La Feuille d'Erable in Windsor and Tecumseh.


Lionel Chevrier: -and La Feuille d'Erable in Windsor and many others which could do equally good jobs in the English language and in the French language.


Mr. Bourque:: As a retired printer, having spent my entire life in the printing industry and having published some of the best, the handsomest and the most deluxe books in Canada, I say this hon. gentleman is entirely wrong. In the province of Quebec we print English, French, and any other language as well as it is done in any other province in Canada or any other place on the American continent.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I made no reflection on the quality of printing in Quebec at all. One of the pleasing things about Quebec is that they have managed not only to print quite a number of private publications but also have managed to sell enough of them to pay for it. I am quite complimentary in that regard. If I indicated that I thought French printing should be confined just to Quebec and English printing just to the rest of Canada, I made a mistake in my expression of opinion. What I meant was this; let us put it this way. If you have a document that is appearing only in English, naturally I feel that you should go to an English printer, if you can define an English speaking establishment; and if you have a wholly French document, then you should go to a French printer.


Henri Courtemanche: As I said a few moments ago, we ask for tenders, whether in French or English, if they are able to do that.
3294	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State


Mr. Regnier:: I should like to tell the hon. member for Port Arthur that in St. Boniface we can print in French, and across the river in Winnipeg we can print in English, Ukrainian, German and any other language you want.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to point out that if the minister is interested in seeing printing done in St. Boniface, some arrangement might be made with the queen's printer by the Secretary of State. Obviously from these figures not much printing is getting far away from Ontario and Quebec.


Charles Edward Rea: Shall vote 321 carry?


Romuald Bourque: I think that what the hon. gentleman who spoke previously has said is entirely wrong. When I was in the printing trade-I retired in 1952-in the establishment I was with, and it was a French establishment, more than 75 per cent of our staff was English. I know of other places, English establishments, that have French staff. For instance, I am thinking of the Gazette in Montreal, one of the very best printing plants in Canada or on the American continent. I might say that 1 am sure their staff must be about 50 per cent to 60 per cent French in the printing department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
326. Printing and binding the annual statutes, $35,000.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I want to ask some questions in connection with the annual statutes. In addition to the full depository privileges accorded to libraries, would they receive these statutes automatically?


Henri Courtemanche: Distribution of the stat-tutes is made only by order in council after a list has been established.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In others words, a library that is one of the approximately 400 that have full selection privileges or full depository privileges does not have the right to the annual statutes. Is that correct?


Henri Courtemanche: Not as such, but if it is on the list established by decision of the cabinet, it is allowed to obtain a copy of the statutes.


Douglas Mason Fisher: What list is this?


Henri Courtemanche: I am told that the officials are ready to send the hon. member a copy of the order in council. The situation is as follows. Free distribution of the revised and annual statutes of Canada is regulated by the Publication of Statutes Act, chapter 230, R.S.C. 1952. Regulations governing the free distribution to authorized categories are
[Mr. Courtemanche.I

contained in order in council P.C. 1953-609, dated April 27, 1953, as amended by P.C. 1953-1661, dated October 28, 1953, which also provides that the recipients may automatically receive a similar number of semimonthly editions of the Canada Gazette, part II, printed in the same language.


Douglas Mason Fisher: My point in connection with this matter is that the revised statutes plus the annual statutes to bring them up to date cost a considerable amount of money. There are a number of libraries-for example, I know of one that has been fairly recently established-that have selection and depository privileges now, but for such retroactive purchases they are up against quite a bill. I want to know the difficulties that will be in the way of such an institution acquiring these back files gratis in the way they acquire current publications.


Henri Courtemanche: That would have to be done by decision of the treasury board in every case.


Douglas Mason Fisher: On each individual case?


Henri Courtemanche: Yes.
The Depuly Chairman: Shall vote 326 carry?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I probably should have asked this question on vote 624, but perhaps the minister would not object to my asking it now. I should like to know what revenue has been received from the sale of publications in the most recent period.


Henri Courtemanche: Last year the amount was $853,171.95 less $93,462.02, which was for advertising.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
The Speaker of the Senate-
181. Allowance in lieu of residence, $3,000.
The Depuly Chairman: This item may be found at page 37 of the blue book, with the details at page 266.
Lionel Chevrier: I do not know whether I am in order at this stage, but I think before I proceed I should say that it is a pleasure to have the Speaker of the house in a position where we can perhaps speak to him with more authority than we can when he is in the chair. I am sure none of us would wish to do other than treat him with the same equity that he metes out to us when he is in the chair, and my understanding is that as a rule the estimates of the Speaker do not take a long time to consider. But there are a number of points I should like to raise, if I may.


Paul Joseph James Martin: As long as they are not points of order.


Lionel Chevrier: One has to do with a matter which came up for discussion in the house some little time ago, and that was the admission by the Prime Minister that he had installed a loudspeaker system in his office. When I say he made an admission, I should add that it was mentioned first in this chamber by another hon. member. The question I should like to ask is whether this matter had been discussed with Your Honour. Perhaps I could reserve the second question until I have received a reply.


Mr. Speaker:: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should answer that question by indicating how the loudspeaker system in the House of Commons originated and how it is operated. I think hon. members will recall, and certainly the hon. member for Laurier will recall, that in 1950 or 1951 a committee of the house was appointed under the chairmanship of Mr. Speaker Macdonald to deal with the question of sound amplification in the chamber, which had been under discussion for some time, and the committee reported to the effect that a system similar to that in use in the United Kingdom parliament should be adopted.
Following the authority given in that way by the house, the installation and operation of the equipment was undertaken by the Department of Public Works and has been carried on by that department ever since. So there is nothing in the votes now before us which relates to this system. Obviously, however, it is a matter which is under the direction and control of the House of Commons. I am not sure what was the question which the hon. member asked me-


Lionel Chevrier: The question was, did the Prime Minister discuss this with Your Honour at all?


Mr. Speaker:: No, the Prime Minister did not discuss it with me.


Lionel Chevrier: Perhaps I should make the position a little clearer. I am not complaining about what has been done in itself. I think the duties of the Prime Minister and his obligations and responsibilities to the country are such that there are decisions which perhaps he has a right to take in certain circumstances, and I am not complaining of this decision. What I am complaining about is the fact that it was not first discussed in the house, having regard particularly to another point; that this is a matter which concerns parliament, not the privy council or the Prime Minister. His Honour the Speaker has said it was not discussed with him.
The next question is this. Does the Speaker, in view of the responsibilities he holds, and
Supply-Legislation
in view of his position, think this matter should have been discussed with him before it was done and announced in the house?


Mr. Speaker:: I do not know that I should express an opinion of the kind the hon. member invites me to express. I agree that the control of the amplification system is a matter for the house.


Lionel Chevrier: I know that the actual expenditure comes under the Department of Public Works, but this goes far beyond that. It is matter affecting the rights of members of parliament, because if this were pursued to an extreme, I suppose every hon. member would have the right to demand the same privilege, which would be ridiculous, I agree at once.
The point I am trying to make is that while the expenditure and control and installation of the public address system are matters for the Department of Public Works, surely the other aspect, whether a member should take it upon himself to make this extension, either rightfully or otherwise-I am not discussing that in itself-is a matter with regard to which the Speaker should be consulted. Surely the Speaker, who is the first commoner, should be advised, and he should be the one to announce it to the house rather than the person-rather than the Prime Minister-who did so on this occasion. What I am complaining about is not the decision itself, not the principle, but the fact that we were not told about this prior to it being done.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I rise to support the protest which has been made by the hon. member for Laurier and his approach to the situation and his expression of his understanding of what should have been the proper procedure.
I understand that when the Prime Minister was replying to a question I raised in the house on this same subject some weeks ago, he mentioned that Prime Minister Macmillan in the United Kingdom House of Commons had a similar device. I presume he got the idea when Prime Minister Macmillan was visiting Canada. However, I understand the matter was raised in the British House of Commons and that it was the cause of some jocular comment, as is very usual in the British House of Commons, possibly because they have a greater sense of humour there than some of the rather stodgy people who inhabit this chamber.
Be that as it may, I think the hon. member for Laurier has established a sound proposition, and that the Prime Minister should have brought this matter to the attention of the house so that objections might have been raised or assent given.

Supply-Legislation


Mr. Marlin (Essex Easl):: I should like to say a word or two on this matter. As the hon. member for Laurier has mentioned, all of us fully appreciate the heavy responsibilities which rest on the shoulders of whoever is charged with heading the government of our country. We all sympathize with the present Prime Minister, who is faced with the very heavy tasks attached to his office. And I am sure that every one of us, wherever we sit, would wish to extend to him any facility which would permit him to discharge those responsibilities in the easiest possible manner.
But I think that would have to be conditioned by the rights which are attached not to individual members of parliament alone, but to parliament as a whole; rights which have their roots in rich tradition and history; rights which have been respected over the years and which are recognized by all who subscribe to our concept of parliamentary government. It should be noted that the effectiveness of parliament may be determined by adherence to practices and privileges which can come only from parliament.
The hon. member for Laurier asked the Speaker whether or not he was consulted by the Prime Minister before the latter decided on the employment of the particular device about which comment is now made. The Speaker in reply said he had not been consulted by the Prime Minister, that there had been no communication between himself and the Prime Minister. I believe, however, that the question goes much further than a mere consultation between the Speaker and the Prime Minister, and certainly further than a mere declaration by the Speaker of what might have been decided upon assuming that there had been consultation.
I would think if the Prime Minister had consulted the Speaker it would be a matter of obligation for the Speaker to advise the house, and in some form to obtain the permission of the house. We all have the greatest confidence in His Honour, but I am sure the Speaker would not regard as his prerogative a decision of that kind. It is a decision that would have to be made by parliament itself.
The hon. member for Kootenay West was quite correct. When Her Majesty's Prime Minister in the United Kingdom decided to employ an electronic device to enable him to be in more continuous contact with the House of Commons the matter was brought to the attention of the house prior to the device being installed. Hon. members who are familiar with the parliament at Westminster will recall that in the dining room and in at least one of the commons rooms

hon. members are enabled to meet with constituents and visitors while out of the chamber, particularly at the dinner hour, and through a ticker tape device or similar mechanism that is employed there they have an opportunity of knowing what is being said at that moment by a speaker in the house.
There is a debate to be found in the British Hansard on that very subject. A committee had recommended that this technique be employed, but it was decided upon only as the result of a common agreement entered into by the members of the House of Commons. We should not be misunderstood, then, in our comments this morning. No one has complained about the desire on the part of the Prime Minister to keep in close contact with this house through the device employed; but the Prime Minister, who has in the past been so jealous of the rights of parliament, will be the first to recognize that in so far as the rights of parliament are concerned, Prime Minister or no Prime Minister, his rights are not any greater than those of the most recent acquisition to the membership of this house. Every hon. member of parliament standing before Mr. Speaker has the same privileges and the same obligations.
I am sure the Prime Minister would recognize that because, as I say, so much of his time in the past in this house and outside has been spent in reminding us and the nation of the richness of our heritage symbolized by this form of parliamentary government. In his zeal to preserve the traditions and liberties of this house he would be the first, I know, to condemn with the rest of us any change in practice that would in any way destroy those traditions and privileges.
Mr. Speaker will recall that when in the throne speech debate I complimented him, as other hon. members had done, on his election to the speakership, I mentioned the observation of Mr. Harold Nicholson who had said the Speaker was, after all, the custodian of the rights of parliament and of the rights of minorities in parliament. I would suggest to the Speaker that in the prudent way in which he does these things he will want to give consideration as to how this particular matter can be brought back into a proper setting in accordance with our traditions and rights. If something is not done what is to prevent-I do not say through the Prime Minister but through some other person- by the electronic devices which in this modern day and age we have decided to set up, finding ourselves, notwithstanding a decision of parliament, in a position where our

words might some day be beamed across the wires and used by radio stations, just as is the case in the province of Saskatchewan where it is done by permission. In the instance I am postulating one can conceive of all sorts of uses that might be made of electronic devices or of some indirect method of broadcasting the debates of this house because of the precedent that has already been established by the Prime Minister.
Are the deliberations of the committees of this house broadcast into the office of the Prime Minister? I do not know. If they are that would be likewise a matter that would have to be considered by Mr. Speaker, and certainly by hon. members of those committees and by the house.
In raising this matter this morning in the responsible and dignified way he did the hon. member for Laurier has, I believe, rendered a service to parliament, and has given us an opportunity of reminding ourselves once again of the traditions and privileges of this house. He has underlined in a way the appreciation we all have for civil liberties; of those things that are protected and guaranteed in a bill of rights and are inherent in law not codified. A bill of rights and all the concepts that accompany it is important, but it is important, too, that those who sponsor these things and advocate them should not themselves be among those who are counted as the first violators of what a bill of rights is supposed to protect.
I speak in this debate not as an older member but as one who has been in the house for a long time and who speaks of these things, I think, with some feeling and I should also like to think with some appreciation. I want to express my gratitude as a member of this house, as a House of Commons man who is jealous of its traditions and who wants to see them preserved, to the hon. member for Daurier for raising this matter in the way he did today, and I commend his words and those of the hon. member for Kootenay West and my more modest contribution to His Honour the Speaker.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, I can see no real argument against the principle that when action of this kind is being contemplated the house itself should be asked to make the decision. However, in fairness to the Prime Minister I want to say that although he might have had this device installed in his office and not in the offices of any of his colleagues or the offices of the opposition personnel, he did not hesitate to tell me very soon after it had been installed that he did have such a loudspeaker, and he invited me to go to his office to hear it in operation, which I did. I might say there was quite a large delegation
57071-3-208
Supp ly-Le gislation
in his office when we arrived, so I did not stay for any length of time, but it seemed to be in good working order, and there were controls on the device which made it possible to raise and lower the level, or shut it off.
If permission had been granted by the house, and if the device were in the Prime Minister's office because of that permission having been granted, I for one would feel that even that might have been a mistake. I realize how very busy the Prime Minister is, and no doubt in the future the calls on his time will be greater than they have been in the past. It will be more difficult for him to spend long hours in the House of Commons in the future, but I would think that for the best carrying out of the functions of his office there is no substitute for attendance in the House of Commons itself.
So far as the deliberations of this house are concerned, the opinions of the government members as well as the opinions of the opposition members and the sense of the atmosphere itself are necessary to the proper conducting of the affairs of government; and the members of the government, and the Prime Minister in particular, should be here.
I do not think anyone believes that when the Prime Minister is in his office he has this device on all the time. I would not think so. I think it would be very distracting, and that it would be almost impossible for him to carry on his other work. Certainly when he has delegations coming into his office the loudspeaker in his office would have to be closed off, so that in practical effect what is happening is that the Prime Minister directly hears very little of what goes on in this chamber.
I am wondering whether someone else has been detailed continually to listen to what is going on in this house so that if something breaks, something that would appear to require the Prime Minister's attention in the house, he is informed that this matter is being debated in the house.


Mr. Dinsdale:: The whip can do that.


Hazen Robert Argue: I think that is the job of the whip. I think it is the job the whip should be doing, and I think that is the proper way it should be done.
Then, as the hon. member for Essex East has said, this type of system lends itself to additional or expanding use, and it would be a very simple step to record from that loudspeaker the words used in this house so that if some very important contribution was being made to a debate and the Prime Minister was unable, because of very important other duties, to listen to the loudspeaker at

Supply-Legislation
that moment, then the important excerpts of the debate might be played back for his benefit and, with this knowledge, he could come into the house and take part in the debate.
I have very sincere feelings on this matter.
I have spent many years in the House of Commons, all of the years when the former prime minister, Right Hon. Louis St. Laurent, was occupying that position. Members who were in the house at that time will know that the former prime minister was a faithful attendant and spent a large part of his time in this house.
I often asked myself the question; how can the prime minister take so much time to be in his place in the house and spend many hours here? Evening after evening the former prime minister, if he was not in his own seat in this house was nevertheless in the chamber. If one of his ministers was conducting departmental matters the former prime minister would be probably in one of the back rows listening very carefully to what was going on.
I think those many long hours that he spent in this house were not a waste of time. They enabled him to conduct better the position of prime minister. I hope our Prime Minister of today will read the remarks that have been made in this debate, if he is not listening to them, and will give them a great deal of attention. I should hope that he would consider whether or not such a device was in fact helpful to the conduct of his office as Prime Minister.
It would be my opinion that a prime minister who occupied his seat in this house for long periods of time would gain a far greater sense of what was the feeling of the House of Commons on any given subject and would, because of his extended attendance in the house, be able to discharge his all-important duties more efficiently than he can by attempting to discharge them in some other way.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wanted to make some remarks and ask questions in connection with the library of parliament. I suppose I can ask my questions on this particular item.


Charles Edward Rea: Item 191 is the
general administration item.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I just thought it would be
like the other estimates and we could take it up on the first item.


Charles Edward Rea: We are really on
the Senate now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

183. Allowance In lieu of residence, $3,000.
Douglas Mason Fisher: I just wanted to ask the
Speaker what his views were in connection with the possible expenses for air travel, if that should be introduced. We have members' travelling expenses under this particular item at the present time. I wondered whether, if there be developed a discussion in relation to extending this privilege, the Speaker would have any views as to whether those expenses should come in this particular area or whether they should come under the Department of Transport. Further, I should like to ask whether he has had any consultation in connection with this particular question as yet.


John Whitney Pickersgill: One o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps I can answer the
question after one o'clock.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Charles Edward Rea: We were on vote 183. Shall vote 183 carry? I would point out to hon. members that the general administration item is 185. Shall vote 183 carry?


Mr. McGee:: No, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Broome:: With regard to item 183, just before one o'clock the hon. member for Port Arthur spoke about providing air transportation for members whose ridings are a long way from Ottawa and I should like to support what he said.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. I wonder whether the hon. member would wait until we get to vote 185, the administration item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
185. General administration-estimates of the Cleric, $1,873,265.
Ernest James Broome: I should like to support what the hon. member for Port Arthur said with regard to air transportation. If we were to remain silent our silence might be interpreted as meaning we do not support his viewpoint. Hon. members from British Columbia in particular do support his viewpoint. When I was at the parliamentary conference recently in Rio de Janeiro I was interested to learn that members of the United Kingdom parliament are provided with air transportation between their constituencies and London as they require it. I do not think anybody is asking for a wide open pass system but I believe that consideration should be given to the issuing of a limited number of passes,

preferably to those members whose constituencies are such a great distance from Ottawa as in the case of those from the far west and perhaps those from Newfoundland. The matter has been brought up time after time and I wish to state that I stand wholeheartedly behind the request that we be given this type of transportation.


Mr. Chambers:: I should like to ask a question regarding the numbering of the offices in the building. Is any consideration being given to improving the system so that visitors may find our offices and, for that matter, so that new members may find their way home each evening?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to join wholeheartedly in what the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George has said. I have been around this building for 20 years and I have never yet been able to figure out what the numbering system is. I doubt if anyone else has.


Mr. Speaker:: I am glad to state that a study is being made of a more intelligible numbering system. That study was instituted two or three weeks ago, I believe, and was sparked by a letter from the Postmaster General who complained about the same matter, I understand, in previous sessions. I believe that a much more understandable system is being devised. As a matter of fact, I know that a much better system has been devised and it now remains to secure the agreement of the Senate and the Department of Public Works in order to put it into operation. I take it that it might be put into operation most conveniently when a new directory is issued. The matter is well in hand and I hope we shall have a system which will help explain itself.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Talking about systems, I know that this matter does not come under the Speaker but I make the suggestion through him that the government might consider the desirability of transferring to the Speaker authority over the refrigeration system which is now non-existent in the house. Reasons have been suggested why it has not been functioning in recent weeks.
I do not expect the Speaker to reply to what I am saying because obviously he must be a disinterested party, but I am wondering why all matters pertaining to the house do not come under the Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: In spite of the opportunity to remain silent which my hon. friend gave me,
I should like to say that I have been as concerned as he has with the inefficiency of the air cooling system which, as he knows, was installed in 1947. With the approach of hot weather recently I took it upon myself
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to ask the Minister of Public Works, whose department is responsible for the heating and cooling of the building, to see that we got a better system. I know there are some difficulties which it may not be possible to overcome this session but I shall not be content unless we have an efficient system before another session.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, I think I was the first person who brought this subject into the open in this house. I was quite unsatisfied by the technical explanation given to us by the Minister of Public Works that the election of 200-odd Conservative members had increased the hot air so much in the chamber that the cooling system would no longer work. I thought the minister was exaggerating the power of hon. gentlemen opposite. But lest there be any misapprehension about the matter I would point out that in happier days in previous sessions, as I mentioned, the system seemed to work perfectly.


Frank Charles McGee: With reference to the remark just made by the member for Bonavista-Twillingate, may I say that a report is circulating throughout the building that the engineers found that the cooling system broke down under the impact of so many Liberals in the house in the past. I should like to support the position taken by the hon. member for Vancouver South as it represents the wishes of all members of the house whose ridings are a considerable distance from this city. I support their request for a limited and reasonable number of air passes.
The reason I rose was to inquire about the number of free copies of Hansard allotted to each member. I understand that comes under this item. This matter is the cause of one of the many difficulties I have encountered in representing a constituency with over 200,000 people. I believe the number of copies of Hansard is 16 and there are at least 16 newspapers servicing various parts of the riding in which I live. If I were to designate that these free copies of Hansard be sent to these newspapers I would not be covering the ground. I wonder whether the Speaker might have some suggestion with regard to what I know will be the general agreement of members of the house to provide for the relief of McGee in this matter.


Mr. Speaker:: A similar question was
asked by the hon. member for Port Arthur. The present arrangement was approved by the house on May 28, 1948, and the order of the house will be found in the Journals of that day at page 490. The order authorized 16 copies to be sent free on the nomination of each member and hon. members are familiar

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with the arrangements by which that is done. The free copies are not charged specifically but are charged generally against the printing vote which is one of the items in the legislation estimates. The queen's printer is paid for the printing of Hansard and these copies are simply taken out of the supply that is printed.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to support what has been said by the hon. member for York-Scarborough. I cannot claim that there are 16 newspapers published in my constituency because actually there is not one, and perhaps it is almost unique in Canada in that respect. But I think those of us representing constituencies where there are very few or no newspapers available have an even greater need of Hansard to inform our constituents of what is going on than those who have the good fortune to have newspapers circulating in their constituencies. I And that I have to spend a good deal out of my own pocket to provide for what I believe are the legitimate desires of representative citizens of the constituency who want to be informed about public affairs.
Perhaps I should not trespass upon Your Honour's time by bringing this up at this moment, but I do feel that perhaps the commissioners of internal economy might give consideration to making a recommendation to the house which could increase this allowance somewhat.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I was rather surprised to hear the hon. member for York-Scarborough mention the sending of free copies of Hansard to 16 newspapers. I have a number of newspapers in my constituency of the same free enterprise type, but they are willing to stand on their own feet and pay for their Hansards. In addition to that, I was very surprised to hear this representative of the capitalist class asking for an increase in federal expenditure for providing his constituents more free Hansards. I am a poor little socialist living in the backwoods, and I send out a lot of Hansards to my constituents, but I am quite willing to pay the shot because I believe in that type of free enterprise.
I rise particularly to express the appreciation of this group for the services, courtesy and work of the staff of the House of Commons, particularly in view of the long hours they have had to put in in recent weeks. I am referring to the protective staff, the messengers, some of whom have to travel many miles on rather ancient legs; the page boys and the other members of the staff, including the nurse, whom I attended upon for the first time yesterday and who was able to bring me back into action this morning, for which

I am very grateful. I should like to mention also the Hansard reporters and the ladies to whom I refer as the Hansard angels, who have to take dictation from these reporters.
I do hope, Mr. Chairman, while there is some excuse for the unusual length of this session, that in future this house will be able to arrange its work to the better advantage of the members and to the better advantage of the staff, so that neither the staff nor the members are denied the opportunity of spending some of their time during the general holiday season with their children, their grandchildren or in some cases their great grandchildren.
Before concluding, I want to make a special plea for what I understand are officially known as the cleaning ladies. I arrive at this house usually between 7.30 and 7.45 in the morning. I am constantly meeting delegations with various complaints. I understand that in recent years, under a previous Speaker, certain changes in the rules were made with respect to their hours. I am told that many of these ladies are married and they have to get here very early in the morning. One lady told me she got up at 4.30 to get here in time to undertake her work. I understand that the ruling now provides that they must stay here until 8.30. I find on arrival that the great majority have already completed their work and in many cases they have to sit around for an hour or more until close to 8.30 when they can go down and punch the clock to go home.
Now, I feel this is entirely unnecessary. I have observed it for a good many months, and I think it is completely unnecessary that these people, who can complete their work within a certain time, should not be allowed to go when their work has been completed instead of being required to stay around for an hour or so until 8.30.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Other members say "hear, hear", so I am sure they have had the same experience. I raise this question because these people have not much opportunity to speak for themselves. I do feel that consideration should be given to the matter so that when their work is completed they would be allowed to leave or at least allowed to leave at a reasonable time and not required to simply stay around for an hour or more in order to comply with this regulation. They have to go home and do their housework, attend to their children and so on.


Mr. Browne (Vancouver-Kingsway):: Before we leave this item, I should like to add my support to the views expressed by the hon. member for York-Scarborough on the matter of distribution of free Hansards. I can quite

understand the reluctance of the hon. member for Kootenay West in wanting to see these circulated because if there were enough copies circulated, and enough people read them, not only the Social Credit party would be eliminated but his group as well.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I send Hansard out to anyone in my constituency who asks for one.


Frank Charles McGee: I hope the hon. member for Kootenay West had his tongue in his cheek when he made reference to the poor, starving socialists. Unfortunately, I do not happen to live in a country estate in the mountains, I live in a small house in suburbia. I cannot afford to pay out what would amount to more than $2,000 over a normal session. I had requests from constituents immediately following election in June for something over 120, and they are still on the list. As I say, I am a poor starving capitalist who lives in suburbia, and I cannot afford that amount of money.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I wanted to ask if Your Honour could define for us the rules in relation to what happens to the clerical staff at the end of the session. There was a certain amount of confusion after dissolution as to what our rights were with regard to the use of clerical help. There may be some question immediately after this session closes. I know some members want to leave immediately, but I wondered what the rights were of the members who desired to stay for a few days and possibly use a secretary to complete some work.


Mr. Speaker:: In my brief experience, Mr. Chairman, with the administration of this essential service to the members, that is the secretarial service, the only principle I have followed was to try to give to the members all the service that they required within the capacity of the staff and the money. We have a vote which provides for some 38 permanent stenographers and 140 sessional stenographers. The immediate problem is service at the end of the session and I can say that, as at the end of past sessions, any member who wants secretarial service for a few days or a reasonable time after the end of the session to complete his arrangements, can be assured of having that service.
There is also a secretarial pool here during the recess, and members who come here during the recess can call on the stenographic services available. Although they may not be able to have their customary secretary, there will be a competent secretary from the pool available. There are some of these secretaries on a continuous basis who are assigned definitely to local members who can
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carry on their constituency correspondance the year round because they live near Ottawa. Obviously, that is not possible for distant members.


Mr. Speakman:: I should like to ask Mr. Speaker if he would look into the difference in salaries received by the House of Commons messengers as against salaries received by messengers in the other place whose duties are considerably less, whose time is required considerably less, but who I believe are getting considerably more.


John Richard Garland: I should like to pursue very briefly, Mr. Chairman, the matter with which we were dealing prior to lunch, that is the matter of the installation in the Prime Minister's office. As a result of that I am wondering whether we are correct in assuming that these wires can be tapped without Mr. Speaker's permission.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member is talking about the physical possibility, I would say that I do not inspect them and that I do not know whether they have been or are being tapped. I think the point was fairly well dealt with previously when it was discussed and I do not think I have anything to add.


John Richard Garland: I make no apology for raising the matter again because Mr. Speaker is the first commoner and there is no one else to whom we can turn for protection in a matter of this kind. When Mr. Speaker said that he was not consulted prior to the installation, I wonder whether he could say if he has been consulted since the installation. I have two or three points in mind. The first is this. Can he say precisely to what use this service is being put at the present time?


Mr. Speaker:: I can say that I have had no requests from any members of the house for the extension of the loud speaker service beyond the chamber.


John Richard Garland: Perhaps Mr. Speaker misunderstood my question. The question I asked was this. Can he say precisely to what use this service is being put at the present time?


Mr. Speaker:: No. It is not within my knowledge. Before the adjournment I expressed my view that this amplification system, which was authorized initially by the house, is a matter for the direction and control of the house. As Speaker, of course, I am only the servant of the house and I do as I am authorized and directed to do by the house.


John Richard Garland: What assurance have members of the house that other installations of a similar nature are not in effect even at this precise moment?

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Mr. Speaker:: I shall make inquiry to see whether there are any others and will inform the hon. member of the result of my inquiry.


John Richard Garland: Can he perhaps say at the same time whether any other installations are being contemplated at the present time?


Mr. Speaker:: I have dealt with that matter in the previous answer.


Frank Charles McGee: There is one other matter I wish to mention concerning the arrangements in the building. It has come to my attention that there have been a considerable number of visitors, both from the United States and Canada, and it is my understanding that of late there has been a larger percentage of Canadians visiting the building, a fact which adds some force to my suggestion. Frequent comments have been made to me and they come indirectly from others to the effect that the hours when tours of the building are available to visitors of the building are rather restricted. I would suggest that Mr. Speaker give consideration to extending the facilities or extending the hours and, if necessary, to hiring college students or high school students to assist the staff who are already rather heavily burdened in this matter. I have one further suggestion concerning the arrangements in the house. It would seem to me that it might be desirable to have some pamphlet giving a brief description of the house and possibly some historical background available free to visitors of the house and not to have the procedure presently in effect, as I understand it, by which they must purchase this information. I would greatly appreciate it if these matters could be considered.


Mr. Speaker:: I shall be glad to give consideration to these suggestions. In fact, I have already done so. The number of visitors to the parliament buildings is increasing each year. Last year the number was 50,000 more than the year before, to a total of 350,000. The Sergeant at Arms informs me that at the present time there are approximately 3,000 visitors a day to the parliament buildings. I think the hours are not out of line. I believe that an attempt was made to keep the buildings open in the evenings and it was found that there was really no call for it. It also complicates the other arrangements. We have an excellent guide service, I believe. Hon. members will have observed and heard the protective staff taking parties about the parliament buildings. I think they do a good and courteous job. If more are needed, of course they will be added. We are in a state where our visitors are increasing and we may

be obliged to change the present system or alternatively to add to it. It may be that the number of visitors will interfere with parliament itself and some restriction may have to be put on if we become any more popular than we are at the moment.


William Arnold Peters: Some mention was made a few minutes ago to Hansard. A United States visitor was over here a few weeks ago and he dropped in to see me. He commented on the fact that copies of our Hansard were not as difficult to obtain as were the records of the United States congress. He does considerable work in the legislative field there and was interested in this matter. He pointed out that the people who visit here-and there are thousands every day-are not readily exposed to the fact that they can buy Hansard if they wish to do so, and that it is a factual record of the house. I should like to make the suggestion that we put a rack in the lobby of the House of Commons where Hansard is displayed. If it were thought fit to give copies away, that would be fine but if it were not thought fit to do that, they might be available so that visitors could purchase them at the regular price. We could probably encourage a great deal more interest in the House of Commons and in the debates that take place here if the people were to know that this type of information was available at the very low price we charge for it.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps I should say just one word on that matter and on the suggestion of the hon. member for York-Scarborough. We sell some souvenir booklets, as hon. members know, at the base of the elevator to the peace tower and that sale is handled by the protective staff. That is a matter which has recently come under my notice and I have been considering whether or not we have the best possible method of supplying the essential documents to tourists. It was suggested that we give a booklet. We have a booklet with which all hon. members are familiar. It is a little booklet published by the queen's printer. I think we pay ten cents for it. It is an illustrated booklet and it tells how parliament works. It is a very good short summary in a convenient size. If we gave this booklet to each of the tourists this year, for example, at ten cents apiece it would cost us $30,000. I do not know whether parliament is prepared to go into that kind of expenditure. The books are available to those who want them at fifteen cents. I have been considering the possibility of a free distribution but I am not convinced that it would be the best use of the money. The tourists seem to get what they want and they are ready to pay for it. However, I am interested in what

the hon. members say and I shall be glad to have their representations from time to time.


John Richard Garland: Perhaps this might be an opportune or appropriate time to pay a compliment to Mr. Speaker for the excellent presentation he made on television the other evening with regard to this aspect of the matter.


Mr. Aiken:: There is one matter which several visitors have mentioned to me. It concerns the sale of pamphlets at the base of the peace tower. Some of the visitors felt that after they have had a very nice tour of the building and were ready to depart, pamphlets were being hawked to them at the entrance to the memorial chamber.
This was earlier in the year. I did mention the matter to the Clerk, and I think the situation is much better now in that they are not being pushed. But I think we should give serious consideration to how far the protective staff should go in presenting these pamphlets so that it shall not appear that the public is paying for the privilege of the tour by buying a book.


Mr. Bigg:: With the development of the north country an added burden is imposed on those members who serve this vast territory. We are not able to move around our constituencies without aeroplanes, because there are no roads and no railroads, and I simply point out that no special allowance is available to members who are obliged to use aeroplanes for this purpose. The problem does not affect a great many members, but it does impose a great burden on those who are concerned.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Since the hon. member for Athabasca has brought up this subject of air travel and the difficulties experienced in covering these northern constituencies adequately, I must say I agree with him-I think this view would be shared by hon. members representing Meadow Lake, Peace River and other similar constituencies-that it is extremely difficult for a member of parliament to serve these northern constituencies to the same degree as urban constituencies are served by those who represent them. In my constituency, for instance, since this session will go on possibly for another two or three weeks, I understand-


Hazen Robert Argue: A month.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: -maybe a month, or six weeks, then. In any event, the people in the northern half of my riding expect the same services of me as those who live in the southern area. Freeze-up comes any time after September 3, which means that if I am to cover that
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riding I must leave here before the end of the session, arrive in Yellowknife, and charter an aircraft, which costs between 55 and 75 cents a mile, in order to reach these people in the north. I have to leave before the end of the session so that I can cover this part of my constituency on floats, take an aircraft that is equipped with pontoons and fly into the northern half of the riding before freeze-up. I think this would also apply in constituencies such as Athabasca, Peace River and Meadow Lake.
As I say, I feel the hon. member for Athabasca has raised a very good point. We are expected to serve our people to the same degree as other hon. members here. I heard the hon. member for York-Scarborough talking about the distribution of Hansard. Hansard may be mailed from here every day of the week, but copies only arrive once or twice a year in some parts of the constituencies which certain hon. members represent. Since the subject has been brought up I feel some special arrangement should be made whereby hon. members who represent constituencies such as mine should be allowed travelling expenses above and beyond those which are provided for by the legislation which now exists.
Most members of this house could, I am sure, cover their ridings by putting a full tank of gas in the car and driving around. But in my case-and I am sure this experience is shared by a number of hon. members opposite, both to my right and to my left- this is far from being possible. I return from here to Yellowknife, which is the central point. There I have to charter an aircraft costing, as I said, between 55 and 75 cents a mile. I leave Yellowknife and, if I want to do it the short way, I go to Hay River, Fort Providence, Jean Marie River, Fort Simpson, South Nahanni, Fort Liard-


An hon. Member:: This is a travel logue.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: If I had so little to talk about as the hon. member for Vancouver, wherever it is-


An hon. Member:: South.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Well, it is south of nowhere, I will say that. If I have to cover my riding-and I have the same privilege in regard to the expense account as are allowed to other members of this house-I must go Hay River, Fort Providence, Jean Marie River, Fort Simpson, South Nahanni, Fort Liard, Fort Wrigley, Fort Norman, Fort Franklyn, back to Norman Wells, Good Hope, Arctic Red River, Fort McPherson and Aklavik, and along the coast from Aklavik to the radar station at Tuktoyaktuk, or, maybe, I would take the long route and back to Yellowknife.

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Even in that case I would only have covered half of my riding, and I would have covered about 5,000 miles at a cost, as I have said, of between 55 and 75 cents a mile.
Someone may say: why don't you go by boat? I tried that in 1955 or 1956. I tried going by canoe. I started out at Hay River, thinking I would cut down my expenses and be able to serve my people properly. I left Hay River in a canoe, went to Fort Providence, Jean Marie River, Fort Simpson. There was a problem at Jean Marie River so I went back there, and then on to Fort Simpson, Fort Wrigley and Norman Wells.
This was in August. It rained for nine days. I do not think any hon. member in this house would expect me, or the hon. member for Athabasca or the hon. members for Meadow Lake and Peace River to sit in an open canoe when it is raining every day. Every once in a while you decide you had better dry out, so you pull into shore, build a fire and get about half dried out, and then you say: "to hell with it; back in the canoe." And then you move along the river again. One hon. member mentioned rain-


Mr. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace):: You
are all wet.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I was just going to say to the Postmaster General that even in those nine days of rain from Hay River to Norman Wells I never saw so many crocodile tears as I have seen in this house-the whining and crying of the government every time-


Charles Edward Rea: I wish the hon. member would stay with the question of travelling expenses.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I have been endeavouring to stick to the question of travelling expenses but since the Postmaster General, who drives around in his constituency in a car-


William McLean Hamilton: walk.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I thought the Postmaster General used the street cars.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: -interjected I thought I should comment on it. I shall proceed from there. On August 12 that same year it snowed.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. I must ask the hon. member to stick to travelling. We are not discussing weather. I request the hon. member to confine his remarks to the problems of travelling without discussing weather.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order you have raised surely it has always been recognized that weather is ancillary to travel.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I was just going to bring that point up. Let us ask the hon. member for Meadow Lake about this. If he travels by air from Meadow Lake to Uranium City in August or September to perform the duties expected of him by his constituents and because of rain or snow he is required to stay in Uranium City for, let us say, five days, does he get that free? I should say not. He pays a waiting charge. He must pay waiting time on that aircraft. If the aircraft company says it cannot fly from one point to another, perhaps a distance of 20 miles, he gets it free but if he engages an aircraft to take him from one point to another and on reaching his destination he is delayed, he must take his chances on that and pay waiting time.
In any event hon. members from northern constituencies are handicapped in serving the people they represent because they have to travel by air. A private hon. member told me that the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the Minister of Transport were going to make a tour of my riding. I must say I have not been asked by these hon. gentlemen to take them around my riding nor was I offered a free ride in their aircraft. I am sure I could take the Minister of Transport on an interesting tour of the country. I could introduce him to the people in my riding who have problems and who would very much like to speak to him and his colleague the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I will not prolong this debate any further-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: "Hear, hear", they say, all these fellows-


Mr. McFarlane:: Hon. members.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Well, all these hon. members who when they go home whether it is on June 1 or March 21 or March 31 simply fill up the gas tanks of their cars and cover their ridings; "Hear, hear" they say, but what do they say about the hon. member for Churchill, the hon. member for Peace River, the hon. member for Athabasca and other hon. members when they discuss this problem in caucus? I wonder what goes on in the caucus of the Tory party? I wonder if the hon. members for Churchill, Peace River and Athabasca- and I almost forgot the most important one, the hon. member for the Yukon.


Mr. Nielsen:: Leave me out of this. I get around quite well.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am glad the hon. member mentioned that because the Liberal government built all the roads he is driving on when he is in his constituency.


Erik Nielsen: Rubbish. I use an aircraft.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Oh, no, you don't. There are only two polling divisions in your riding and you do not have to use aircraft.


Erik Nielsen: Fifty-six.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Two polling divisions. Ross River and Old Crow.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is Old Crow a polling division?


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: In any event I wonder what goes on in the caucus of the Tory party.


Mr. Ricard:: Lots of things.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I wonder what is said when the hon. members for Churchill, Meadow Lake, Athabasca and Peace River stand up and say "We want a better deal". These fellows say, "Hear, hear" but I can just imagine what goes on in the caucus.


An hon. Member:: Why not listen in? It is tapped.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: If I could have it tapped and piped into my room as the Prime Minister does I would find it most interesting to know what goes on in the Tory caucus. Possibly I could even tell you now. In any event, Mr. Chairman, I do think-


William McLean Hamilton: You do? That is surprising!


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: If I were to go back through all the pages of Hansard that have been filled by the Postmaster General I would say he did a hell of a lot less thinking than I have ever done.


Charles Edward Rea: Order.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: In fact, he did not do any.


An hon. Member:: Correction stands.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: And he certainly has not done any thinking since he took office. I urge that the Speaker whose estimates we are discussing at the present time consider the possibility of extending to hon. members from northern constituencies an extra travelling allowance to cover the cost of transportation in their constituencies where transportation by air is the only means of transportation.


Mr. Granger:: Mr. Speaker, I should like to associate myself with the remarks of the previous speaker and other hon. members who spoke concerning extra expenses incurred in properly looking after the interests of their constituents in northern constituencies. My constituency begins in central Newfoundland, at the south, and continues north to the northernmost tip of Labrador. If I am to get around my constituency at
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all I must do so by air. There is a string of settlements extending up that long coastline all of which have a right to be visited by their parliamentary representative and certainly he has a duty to visit them and acquaint himself with their problems in order to properly speak on their behalf. If one attempted to do it by any means other than air one would probably have to spend the whole 12 months of the year travelling. The result is that one must use aircraft.
All hon. members can appreciate that travel by air is much more expensive than by other means. One has the double handicap of long distances and high costs as compared with normal travel in smaller constituencies. I urge that Mr. Speaker take into consideration the question of making allowances for the travelling expenses of hon. members from constituencies where the only means of transportation is by air.


Mr. Speaker:: I will just say this about travelling expenses. They are entirely statutory and it is up to the House of Commons to do whatever it wants to do.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Will you recommend it,
though, sir?


Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, I wonder
whether I might ask the first commoner why there is a reduction of $10,000 in the contribution to the retirement allowance of members of parliament. The estimate for this fiscal year is only $55,000. I understand that members' contributions are matched by the government. I have made a rough calculation. There are 265 members, and 265 times $240 comes to $63,600, which is $8,600 above $55,000.


Mr. Speaker:: I have here the annual report of the fund. The variation may be accounted for in the fact that members "have the right to pay up arrears, and the act provides for matching those payments as well as the current payments. I will get the information for the hon. member.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Has the Speaker noticed certain comments in newspapers by members of the press gallery about the conditions in the press gallery, and has he taken the whole question of the cramped quarters and the rumours of cockroaches, rats, and so forth in that particular area into consideration and does he intend to report on the conditions which have been referred to as slum conditions in that particular area of the house?


Mr. Speaker:: I have only this to report. I have had no complaints from the press gallery this session or the previous session. I know that periodic fumigation takes place and I am sure that the best is done with the

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space we have. All of us must realize that we are cramped in this building and even the members have to put up with restricted quarters as do the press in their operations until some solution is found to that problem.


Erhart Regier: On vote 185 I should like to call one little matter to the attention of the Speaker, if I may. It is normal practice, as the Speaker well knows, for the average worker in Canada to look forward to working not more than a five-day week. There are many employees in the House of Commons who, when the house is sitting six days a week, are requested to work six days a week. While I realize that at times it might be advisable for the house to be meeting six days a week, I would imagine that most members of the House of Commons would be able so to arrange their work that as few of the employees as possible would have to work six days a week. The ones I have in mind are our office help. We have a lot of research work to do, and so on, and I think we could well arrange to be doing this on Saturdays and Sundays. I believe arrangements could be made whereby members would not need the help of their stenographers except possibly the odd one down in the pool for emergency purposes. I think those people would greatly appreciate that. As we all know, when the summer months come many residents of Ottawa move out of the city and live out in the various summer cottages. They have made arrangements as to how to get in and out of Ottawa on regular week days. However, when we impose upon them the added Saturday, it just imposes a considerable hardship on a goodly number in that they are suddenly faced with this rather serious transportation problem. I was wondering also whether the Speaker had given any consideration to exempting those employees from work on the ordinarily accepted statutory holidays such as July 1, Her Majesty's birthday, and so on?


Mr. Speaker:: Within the time at my disposal since being elected Speaker, and there has not been very much of it, I have been trying to familiarize myself with the conditions of work of both permanent and sessional employees. As I understand our system, in 1955 we did adopt the five-day principle, and everyone working here works on the basis of a five-day week. Now it is true in fact that they work six days while we are working six days, but they are paid additional for the extra day, and I am not sure that that is not a welcomed extra pay. When we are not in session, the employees of the House of Commons do enjoy some privileges which other civil servants and

employees of public and municipal authorities do not enjoy, such as earlier closing hours. The extra time in which they work on Saturday and statutory holidays is made up to them as a holiday with pay in the case of the permanent staff. That may not be the answer; I do not think it is but, in any event, we are trying now to compensate all of our staff on the basis of a five-day week, giving them either the equivalent time off with pay or paying them for the extra work when they are sessional employees.
I do appreciate the hon. member's suggestion that members of the house should co-operate as much as they can to alleviate the situation which exists in the holiday period, and the hot weather, which necessarily arises out of our sitting at this time.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In connection with the salaries for parliamentary assistants, I notice that the allotment has been doubled. I wonder what the explanation is. If parliamentary assistants should be appointed, will they be given a grant for the whole year, or will it be on the pro rata basis for the amount of time they actually put in in the year?


Mr. Speaker:: I can only answer that
nothing is being paid now under that vote.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I confess I was greatly puzzled to see that the vote indicated for last year in the estimates was $28,000, and this year it is $56,000. It seems to me there must be some technical explanation for this because obviously the provision was made for 14 appointments originally, and I do not think it has ever been changed. If my arithmetic is correct, 14 times 4 would be 56 and not 28. I notice the same thing with regard to the allowance given to the incumbent of the chair at the moment, which I am sure was $2,000 in times past but this says $1,000 for 1957-58. I am sure there is some technical explanation of it, and I wondered what it was.


Mr. Speaker:: The normal vote is 14 times $4,000. I cannot give offhand any explanation for the estimates of last year which, of course, are not now under consideration, but I will be glad to obtain the information.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am reluctant to think, sir, that the Minister of Finance has made another mistake in arithmetic.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: It has been rumoured around the corridors that out of the estimates of the Speaker there is a possibility of a trip into my own constituency of Mackenzie River and into the Yukon Territory this session. I am wondering whether the Speaker, rather than spend this money on a trip for hon. members, could not divert some of this or

make possible all of it going to the members I spoke of earlier this afternoon and leave the financing of the proposed trip to the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.


Mr. Speaker:: I have no power to change the purpose of a vote. As the hon. member will see, there is an item of $20,000 for expenses of committees. That is available for expenditure by committees in the pursuit of their duties.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am sure that the Speaker is very interested in seeing that the hon. members I have mentioned should have the opportunity to cover their constituencies properly. Although this money is available for committees I would hope that the Speaker would make such a recommendation to the government. I am sure the government would listen to the Speaker. I would hope that the Speaker, as the first member of the house, would recommend to the government that if these moneys now allocated to committees are not going to be used, they should be made available to look after the members for Churchill, Meadow Lake, Peace River, Athabasca, the Yukon, Labrador and the Northwest Territories.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
186. Estimates of the Sergeant-at-Arms, $859,599.
Erhart Regier: I have one minor complaint to register under this item having to do with parking space for cars of members of the House of Commons. With the growth in the number of visitors to parliament hill, members of parliament are finding it increasingly difficult to find accommodation for their cars in the spaces allotted to them. An ever-increasing number of cars are using these parking spaces without proper authorization. I hope that the matter can be looked into at the next session. I know that if one arrives at the house a little later than the opening it is very often completely impossible to find a parking space. I have walked along the line of cars and have seen that less than half of them have the proper authorization to park their cars where they are.


Mr. Speaker:: I am quite conscious of the difficulty. As a matter of fact, a survey was made by the Sergeant-at-Arms on Saturday last and something like 24 or 30 of the 80 odd spaces available for members, outside of the ministers' parking area, were found to be occupied by cars that were not authorized to park there. There is no policing. I am studying the problem with the Sergeant-at-Arms and the commissioners and we are trying to find a solution so that all members with cars will have their spaces available to them.
57071-3-209J
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However, the solution requires a good deal of co-operation by members as well as policing of the area.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
189. To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Financial Administration Act or the provisions of the Senate and House of Commons Act respecting the independence of parliament, for the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund to each member of the House of Commons appointed by the governor in council to be a parliamentary assistant (which appointment shall not render such member ineligible or disqualify him as a member of the House of Commons) to assist a minister of the crown in such manner and to such extent as the minister may determine and to represent his department in the House of Commons in the absence of the minister therefrom, a salary of four thousand dollars per annum and pro rata for any period less than a year, $56,000.
Erhart Regier: This vote calls for the payment of parliamentary assistants. I believe the Speaker will agree that it is not wise to ask for more money than can possibly be used in any one financial year. At the end of this month five months of the current fiscal year will have elapsed. The vote calls for $56,000 representing pay for a full year for 14 parliamentary assistants. We may have had that many but I doubt it. In view of the fact that five months of the current fiscal year will have elapsed at the end of this month, I am wondering whether the Speaker might not like to reduce this amount by making it only seven-twelfths of the amount listed.


Mr. Speaker:: As was said earlier, the normal estimate is 14 times $4,000 or $56,000. The amount spent has varied a great deal from year to year depending upon how many parliamentary assistants there were and what time they were appointed. The unexpended part of the $56,000 has ranged from $4,000 in 1956-57 to $28,000 in 1945-46. No money is lost by leaving the vote as it is. It just means that it is an over-estimate as it stands.


Erhart Regier: The reason I ask for a reduction is that I believe some members have actually been acting as parliamentary assistants since March 31, if not in an official capacity then possibly in the capacity of expectation. I do not know how to put it.


Mr. Hodgson:: Erstwhile.


Erhart Regier: If the vote is left as it is it might lead to parliamentary assistants being appointed and their remuneration being made retroactive. That could cause considerable difficulty. In order to ensure that all parliamentary assistants, once they are appointed, will be treated on an equitable basis,
I believe that this amount should be reduced

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in proportion to the period of time that has elapsed. Therefore I move:
That the amount of vote No. 189, $56,000, be reduced by five-twelfths of that figure.
That would leave the vote at $32,666.67.


George Randolph Pearkes: I am sure the government could not accept this amendment. This money has been provided. If it is spent it will be spent. If it is not spent, then in the ordinary course of events the money will just lapse.


Erhart Regier: On that point, I am sure that the Minister of National Defence will remember very well how members of his party used to criticize most severely any item in the estimates of the previous regime that obviously would not be needed for the ensuing year. At that time his party put forward the idea that it was wrong in principle to vote more money to any government than it required.
All that legislation provides for is that parliamentary assistants be paid an additional $4,000 per annum. I am sure the minister cannot really have considered the argument that he has advanced that we ought to vote more money for a purpose than is allowed for that purpose.


Charles Edward Rea: Is the house ready for the question?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No, I think before we on this side decide exactly what we should do about this question, we ought to give the government an opportunity to explain what it intends to do about parliamentary assistants. The hon. member who has just taken his seat is quite right. Those who occupy the treasury benches, when they were on this side, were insistent that there should be a proper relationship between estimates and expenditures. There is not much sense in providing an estimate unless the government intends to carry out the purpose for which the estimate is made.
Several months have gone by now and parliamentary assistants have not been appointed. The day before yesterday the Leader of the Opposition interrogated the Prime Minister as to his intention in this regard, and the reply given by the Prime Minister was certainly not informative. No one perhaps can say whether or not parliamentary assistants will be appointed, except the Prime Minister. During the course of the session the Prime Minister did indicate that parliamentary assistants would be appointed. Here we are coming to the end of the session during which a parliamentary assistant is expected to perform his major functions. Now it is not difficult for the Minister of National Defence, speaking for the government, to say

that he could accept this amendment, but that is not sufficient. The hon. gentleman is too intelligent to expect us to believe it is adequate.
We should be told by the government whether or not they intend to appoint parliamentary assistants for the balance of the period or whether the institution, initiated by the previous administration, is going to be dropped. If it is dropped, of course, there will be great disappointment in the ranks of hon. gentlemen opposite because-I was going to say there are many hundreds but that would be an exaggeration-there are certainly well over a hundred on the other side and in the overflow on this side who are sitting here day after day in expectation that each is going to be preferred. Knowing something about what that expectation is like, I feel that I should speak for these unnamed individuals who aspire to sit in the seats of the mighty. The government has an opportunity to relieve them of the tension which has pursued these aspirants over a period of five months; it has an opportunity to interfere with careers or move careers along. We should be told today. I do not know of anyone who can tell us more effectively than the Minister of National Defence. He has the ear of the Prime Minister, as I am sure no other minister has-


George Randolph Pearkes: That is absolute nonsense, Mr. Chairman.


Paul Joseph James Martin: If the Prime
Minister, who undoubtedly hears me at this time, does not think it desirable to enter the chamber at this particular moment, surely the Minister of National Defence will find it desirable to tell us whether or not the Prime Minister is going to appoint parliamentary assistants.
If not, then obviously this money should not be voted. If the government intends to appoint parliamentary assistants, we should then respect the government's wishes in the matter. Before we make up our minds on this question either the Minister of National Defence, who now shows a measure of reluctance, the Minister of Agriculture, who seems to be eager, or the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources should reply on behalf of the government. It would not be fair to ask Mr. Speaker, who has views, but no authority.


George Randolph Pearkes: It must be remembered that these estimates were prepared a long time ago, and provision has been made for the appointment of parliamentary assistants, as and when it is the desire of the Prime Minister to appoint those parliamentary assistants. The work of the parliamentary assistants does not end at the end of the session. As

the hon. member has just said, he does not know whether or not there are going to be parliamentary assistants appointed. How then can he say he will reduce the sum by a certain amount? Obviously, we should leave the amount in the vote, and if that amount is not spent in the way that parliament has authorized it be spent, it lapses in the ordinary course of proceedings.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I rise to support what was said by the hon. member for Essex East. I can remember when he was appointed among the first parliamentary assistants-


Paul Joseph James Martin: After a long period of expectancy.


John Whitney Pickersgill: -as he himself has said, after some time spent in hope. I can never remember any occasion in any parliament when the appointment of parliamentary assistants was left to the end of the session. It would appear to me if these appointments are not made during the session it would be an abuse of the vote and an abuse of the rights of parliament to appoint parliamentary assistants almost on the day of prorogation and pay them for a period when they obviously would not be serving in the way in which they would be serving during the session. Therefore it would seem to me, unless these appointments are made almost at once in contemplation of three or four more weeks of session, this money will not be needed until next January.
Perhaps the hon. gentleman in moving his amendment has not moved to reduce the vote enough. One thing is perfectly obvious, this money cannot be spent for April, May, June, July or nine days in August. It is, therefore, quite ridiculous to ask us to vote $56,000 when it is quite apparent more than one-third of that money cannot legally be spent in any case.


Hazen Robert Argue: It is quite true, as the Minister of National Defence has said, that these estimates were prepared many months ago. I would think that the people, in preparing these estimates, assumed parliamentary assistants would have been appointed long ago. It seems a rather strange theory of government that an item placed in the estimates is so sacrosanct that, even although it is obviously not needed, parliament should not move to reduce the amount. As the hon. member for Essex East has so well said, many members of the government when they were on the opposition side of the house were most careful to point out to the former administration that this was a very bad practice and should not be followed.
I do not want to say anything to prejudice the position of parliamentary assistants or to
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put any blocks in the road of the many hopefuls to whom reference has been made. As a matter of fact, I have had a great deal of sympathy myself for these hon. gentlemen during this session. It has caused me a good deal of concern that so many capable young members were being bypassed, overlooked and given no consideration because these vacancies have been allowed to remain. Not only is it a disappointment to hon. members of this house who may hope to be appointed parliamentary assistants but I think it is rather degrading to the office itself. There will be going abroad the feeling that if in this session 

with the tremendous amount of work that is being done; with estimates that are the largest in the history of this country; and with probably the heaviest work load we have ever seen in any peace time session-we were able to operate without parliamentary assistants in this streamlined fashion that has already become the vogue on account of the hurried up, 3J month session, then perhaps it is an office that is superfluous to the efficient working of this house.
But in opposing any reduction the Minister of National Defence would seem to have in his mind the possibility that if these gentlemen are appointed to their positions they can be given 12 months' pay for 7 months' service. I am not nearly as expert an authority on what is legal and what is not in a vote such as this as is the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. But with the wording of vote 189 as it is, and realizing that it is just an item in the estimates and is therefore not statutory, I take it that it might be possible to give them all of this pay for very little work. I would hope that thought is not in the mind of the Minister of National Defence.
For a government that has expressed so much desire for economy in administration this would seem to be a very obvious motion to support. It is really not going to take away from any person anything that he has earned but is merely bringing the estimates in line with reality. Some hon. members may feel that the appointment of certain parliamentary assistants has become something of a political plum, and that some of the offices are not necessary. I do not express that opinion. However, I say that it has been a mistake to allow this session to come nearly to a conclusion without parliamentary assistants being appointed. That has been a strange procedure for the government. The attitude of and the statement made by the Minister of National Defence at this time are even more strange. In keeping with the beliefs of members of the government in the past I would appeal to the Minister of Public Works and to the members of the government to accept this

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motion in order to tidy up these estimates so that they will be more in keeping with reality.
(Translation):


Mr. Dupuis:: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the $56,000 estimate to provide for the salary of certain parliamentary assistants, I must say that I regret that the government has not yet seen fit to make the necessary appointments. Does this mean that the Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) has been unable to discover any qualified members to fill those vacancies? I can hardly believe that. Could this be a sword of Damocles hanging over the heads of our friends opposite in order to make sure of their presence in the house at all times? To my mind that is another possibility.
Mr. Chairman, the fact remains that we are being asked to vote $56,000 for the appointment of parliamentary assistants. Even though the Prime Minister has stated more than once that those appointments would be made in the near future, the session is running out and we still do not know who those gentlemen might be. I could, of course, suggest some names to the Prime Minister, but I am convinced he knows of them better than I do. Then, too, I wonder though if he is not somewhat uneasy about appointing any from the ranks of Quebec members, since the famous natural gas scandal. I feel that the Prime Minister is being most cautious indeed, lest he appoint parliamentary assistants who, one fine day, could be "gassed", directly or indirectly.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I think the government should explain the matter. The theory I have put forward represents a distinct possibility. Natural gas has had damaging effects far beyond those generally assumed. The Prime Minister should explain why, at this very late stage of the session, he still refuses to appoint parliamentary assistants.
(Text):


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, this amendment goes to show what sitting for many days in the heat of an Ottawa summer will do to some of the hon. members of the house.


An hon. Member:: Including you.


Howard Charles Green: Here we have the C.C.F. moving this amendment, supported by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate and the hon. member for Essex East; and may I add that from neither of those two hon. members do we expect very much-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Howard Charles Green: -particularly on such occasions. However, here is an attempt by two opposition groups absolutely devoid of any real issue on which to attack the government.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Hazen Robert Argue: Who is whining now?


Howard Charles Green: Hon. members can groan and grunt all they like but that is the fact.


An hon. Member:: Just a cheap political stunt.


Howard Charles Green: Here we have them drawing another red herring across the trail.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Surely a parliamentary assistant is not a red herring.


Howard Charles Green: This is another good example of their standard of statesmanship. The vote under attack at the moment is to provide for the pay of parliamentary assistants. You will notice, Mr. Chairman, that it is not calculated on the basis of a certain number of parliamentary assistants. This is one reason why these specious arguments advanced from across the way fall so flat. It may be that the number of parliamentary assistants appointed under this vote would be more than 14. Whatever is done hon. members of the house, including members of the government party, may rest assured that the move made by the Prime Minister will be one which he considers to be in the best interests of the country. There is never any doubt about his decision being made on that basis. This attempt to come in here today and to shed crocodile tears for all the private members on the government side of the house because they have not all been appointed parliamentary assistants-


Hazen Robert Argue: The minister is extremely
touchy.


Howard Charles Green: -is very touching and all very amusing on a Saturday afternoon in Ottawa. But may I point out to the hon. members of these two opposition parties that we are not fooled by this amendment or by this attempt made to stir up trouble in the hearts of some of the members on the government side. It was hoped that some of these members would have their egos affected. Oh, the hon. member for Assiniboia has made his speech; he made the most he could out of nothing for five or ten minutes. Let him just keep quiet until I have finished.
We are always very grateful for suggestions as to ways in which the efficiency of government in this country can be improved, but this is not one of those suggestions-it is just a leg-pulling amendment which has been moved by hon. members of the C.C.F.

They sit up late night after night trying to figure out amendments of this kind.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I suppose the minister is speaking from experience.


Howard Charles Green: And they nearly always take the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate into their camp because he has that kind of mentality. But after he has paid a visit to his adopted province of Newfoundland and met a few of his constituents in some of the post offices we have built there perhaps he will come back in a more sensible frame of mind. We are not gullible enough to fall for an amendment of this kind, and we hope that before the end of the session members of the two opposition parties will be able to come up with some suggestions which are a little more statesmanlike than the one they have made this afternoon.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If I had intended to vote for the amendment before the Minister of Public Works spoke, he has given me a much better reason for doing so now because he has drawn attention to the fact that something has now been omitted from this vote which in earlier years was there.
When Mr. Mackenzie King first introduced the system of appointing parliamentary assistants and put this vote into the estimates, I think it was in 1941 or 1942, there was a limitation to 14 contained in the vote. Parliament was told without equivocation that the number would not be greater than this. Now the leader of the house has said that perhaps the Prime Minister would appoint more than 14. Perhaps an effort has been made to deceive parliament in order to appoint more than 14, in other words, perhaps there is an intention to increase the number appointed as compared with what has been done in the past by increasing the expenditure of public money on members of parliament which, except for this vote, would be contrary to the Senate and House of Commons Act. I think the committee should be told how many assistants, as a maximum, are to be appointed. There was never any doubt about this in the past and I must say I had overlooked the omission of the limitation to 14 in reading this vote hastily, but having read it hastily while the minister was speaking, it appears that there is no limitation as to numbers in this item and it seems to me that this is a very serious departure from established practice and that we should not be asked to vote this money until the government gives us a positive assurance that it is not going to appoint more than a certain number.
I agree with my hon. friend for Essex East that these appointments should have been made long ago, and I think it would be
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a scandal, as I said earlier, to make them in the dying days of the session, because the very term parliamentary assistant surely means that the assistance for which this extra money taken from the taxpayers is to be used is mainly for assistance in parliament.
Going back to the amendment itself, I want to repeat that it does seem to me absolutely contrary to the kind of thing that the minister used to argue from this side of the house and from what the Minister of Agriculture and Minister of National Defence and many other ministers used to say about voting more money than was going to be spent, to vote money for April, May, June, July and nine days of August. On one point I do not think the hon. member for Assiniboia was correct, because the item says "pro rata for any period less than a year", so I do not think there could be any dating back. But it does appear that more than 14 people could be appointed, and if the government has no such intention they should come clean and tell us and not try to slip it in surreptitiously as the Minister of Public Works has suggested they were trying to do. Before we vote on this item I hope the Minister of Public Works or someone else speaking for the government will give us an assurance that we are not going to use this money late in the session to appoint 25 or 30 or 40 parliamentary assistants and then divide up this $56,000, as the minister suggested could legally be done once we pass this vote.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps we could appoint 175 and pay so much a head? How would that suit the hon. member?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Perhaps you could. That is precisely the point. The government should not be so sloppy in drafting these estimates, nor should this committee be so careless about passing them as to leave that possibility open to the government and it seems to me that our duty-and this is especially true of those of us who were elected to oppose the government-is to see that the government does not get away with practices of this kind. It is not good enough that the law should make possible a practice of this kind even if it is not the intention of the government to indulge in it.
The minister spoke about leg-pulling. I do not really believe that even this government would appoint everyone of its supporters who was not in the ministry to be a parliamentary assistant for a few weeks, though some of their friends in one or two of the provinces have appointed so many people to their governments, and as assistants to ministers that the situation has reached a point where nearly everyone in the legislature-and I am thinking in particular of one of their close

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friends-has office of some kind. But I do not think we want to see this kind of practice followed in the national field.
It seems to me that it is no laughing matter, though it may be that the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam was, perhaps, just having a little good clean fun. But we now seem to have found out from the minister that perhaps there is some intention to appoint a lot more assistants than there were before and I think we are at least entitled to be told whether it is the intention of the government to do this or not.


Howard Charles Green: The short answer to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is that the number would be limited by the amount of the vote, which is $56,000. If it should be decided that this total is not required there would be that much money saved, but there is a ceiling, namely the amount of the vote.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, but unfortunately with people only appointed for one month it would not be much of a ceiling-it would be a case of the sky being just about the limit. I suppose that even the Minister of Public Works would not know what to do with more than, say, five parliamentary assistants, but if there is to be no limit put on this he may find himself in that embarrassing position some day in January or February or March before this vote expires. The minister talks about the necessity of not reducing this item. He was not in the committee when I directed a question earlier to the Speaker and, I think, not very properly to him, about why the estimate showed only $28,000 for last year. It seems to me there is something wrong there. Either there is something wrong with the estimates or there is some explanation.


Mr. Speaker:: I have obtained an answer. There was no vote last year. As the house will recollect, the estimates were not passed. The actual expenditure was $28,000 and that was authorized by governor general's warrant. That is why it appears as an estimate of last year.


John Whitney Pickersgill: As hon. members will recall Mr. Chairman, I said I felt there was some kind of explanation. I did not think it was negligence on any one's part not to have the explanation at hand. But that very fact does show that no hardship would be done to any one by reducing this vote by the number of months that have already passed for which it cannot possibly be used. I would think in view of the contemplated deficit of the Minister of Finance that hon. gentleman would be very happy to join with us in reducing this estimate by the number of months and days that have already passed

in this fiscal year so that to this extent at least his estimates would be smaller than they otherwise were.


Mr. Gour:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to bring to the attention of the house leader a very important consideration. When the Prime Minister decides to name the parliamentary assistants I urge that he not forget eastern Ontario. We used to have two cabinet ministers from eastern Ontario. One of the best qualified ministers represented the French-speaking population in that part of Ontario. Also, there was a most competent and capable minister who was Englishspeaking. At the moment eastern Ontario is not represented in the cabinet. My good friend the Minister of Agriculture requires a parliamentary assistant and I would like to suggest that the appointment be made from among hon. members from eastern Ontario. I have two neighbours, one Englishspeaking and one French-speaking. The hon. member for Carleton is a fine fellow. If he were appointed as parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Agriculture it would be better than nothing. At least eastern Ontario would be represented in the cabinet and the problems of agriculturists in that area could be made well known to the government. It would cost no more or less to appoint this hon. gentleman to that position than it would to appoint any one else. I would hope that eastern Ontario would be represented in the cabinet by at least one parliamentary assistant and there should be representation through both an English-speaking and French-speaking parliamentary assistant. In any event at least one parliamentary assistant should be named from middle and eastern Ontario. That is all I have to say on that question. I think it has been a grave mistake on the part of the Prime Minister to delay these appointments for such a long time. There are at least 200 hon. gentlemen on the other side of the house who cannot sleep at night because they are in suspense as to whether they will be appointed parliamentary assistants. Surely in that overwhelming majority on the other side of the house the Prime Minister can find 14 hon. gentlemen who could fill positions as parliamentary assistants.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, I join again with my colleagues who have just spoken because the Minister of Public Works who leads the house was not here when the main arguments were put forward by those on this side of the house who respectfully urged the government to take some positive line and give the house some indication which has not yet been forthcoming. The government is asking that we

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vote certain moneys in respect of an insti- one section of the province of Ontario. Every tution which has served its purpose during minister comes from the Toronto district or
the period from 1941 or thereabouts up until June of 1957. We are now coming to the end of the session and no parliamentary assistants have been appointed whatsoever. In the absence of a statement from the government it does seem rather unusual that the government should ask us to appropriate moneys when it does not give any indication that it is ever going to spend the money it is asking parliament to vote.
The Minister of Public Works as the senior member of the government next to the Prime Minister, I presume, without knowing all of the undertones in the hierarchy, surely should be able to tell us what is the intention of the Prime Minister and the government. I addressed myself on this question rather respectfully but with perhaps too much force to the Minister of National Defence as one who certainly had the ear of the Prime Minister. I asked if in the absence of the Minister of Public Works he could give us some definite information as to what were the intentions of the government but for some reason the Minister of National Defence was not able to answer. As the hon. member for Russell pointed out there are many anxious individuals in this house-


George Randolph Pearkes: Including you.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -on all sides, on this side and down at the end, who are awaiting expectantly for every move made by the Prime Minister and, may I say by way of a compliment, for every move made by the Minister of Public Works who undoubtedly has great influence in these matters. The Minister of Public Works ought to be able to tell the committee if any parliamentary assistants are going to be appointed. We are not asking whether the old ones are going to be reappointed. We are not asking whether the principle of rotation will be observed so that in successive years each man will be given an opportunity to serve as parliamentary assistant.


George Randolph Pearkes: We should have to be in power for a long time.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We ought to have some statement from the minister on this question. There is a great deal of levity in the committee this afternoon-


Howard Charles Green: Hear, hear.


Paul Joseph James Martin: -and that is understandable at this stage in the session but there is also a great deal of seriousness involved in this question. It was the hon. member for Russell who directed our attention to the grave aspects of this problem. Every cabinet minister but one comes from
the Hamilton district with the exception of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. The province of Ontario with a population of six million people is the largest province in Canada and all of the cabinet ministers are congregated in one area, the city of Toronto. Toronto is a fine and important city but there are other important cities in Canada including my own city of Windsor, the city of London, the city of Sault Ste. Marie and many others. And while I do not share the political convictions of my two colleagues from Essex county I want to say that if you have to select a Conservative government I do not think you could find any better, in so far as the Conservative party is concerned than what you have in the person of my two colleagues from Essex county.


Hazen Robert Argue: All for Paul and Paul for all, eh?


Paul Joseph James Martin: In any event there is no one in the cabinet representing any section of Ontario other than Toronto and Hamilton except the Minister of National Health and Welfare who comes from the city of Stratford. There is no one from northern or eastern Ontario and no one from a rural area.


Howard Charles Green: What about the Secretary of State for External Affairs?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Secretary of State for External Affairs comes from an area that is almost Toronto.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Almost Toronto.


Mr. Harkness:: He comes from Hastings, just east of here.


Howard Charles Green: Your geography is poor.


Paul Joseph James Martin: And you should not forget the effect of the battle of Hastings, incidentally.


Douglas Scott Harkness: One of the most fruitful battles in English history.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I well recall how hon. gentlemen opposite used to complain about the fact that the city of Toronto had no representation in the last government except during the latter period of its tenure of office. In view of that I ask hon. gentlemen if my argument today is not a very valid, sound and justifiable one. Obviously the Prime Minister is not going to remove from his cabinet those hon. members who come from the city of Toronto and neighbouring regions. That would not be an easy thing for him to do and I am not going

Supply-Legislation
to urge that he make changes of that kind at this stage in the history of this parliament but the way he could meet the need for a more balanced representation with respect to other sections of the province of Ontario would be to give representation on the lower ministerial level in the form of appointments as parliamentary assistants. That is an excellent suggestion which I make to the serious minded Minister of Public Works who undoubtedly has a lot to do with cabinet making in the present administration. If he wishes us to pass this measure I ask him to rise in his place and tell us whether or not we are going to have parliamentary assistants.
Is this vote just a pro forma thing to hold dangling between sessions before expectant junior ministers the possibility of their appointments? If that is what it is, then obviously we should not support the amendment. The Minister of Public Works has it in his hands now to clear this matter up at once and to say, yes, the government is going to appoint parliamentary assistants. He does not need to tell us it is going to be done tomorrow or at the end of the session, but that it is going to be done within a very reasonable period and length of time. If this is done, then the minister will give us a satisfactory answer, and he will demonstrate what I know is really the case, namely that he has great power and influence in the present government.


Howard Charles Green: Get thee behind me, Satan.


Mrs. Fairclough:: I really cannot allow the remarks of the hon. member for Essex East to go by.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I apologize to the hon. lady. I know she comes from Hamilton, and I know I should not have said she came from Toronto.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: You certainly should not. While I am on my feet, perhaps I should say I am sure my colleague, the Minister of Labour, feels as badly as I do about the appellation which has been applied to us. I can assure the hon. member for Essex East that there are some 300,000 people in the city of Hamilton who feel just as I do.
The Depuly Chairman: Is the committee ready for the question?


Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, first of all I wish to assure the hon. member for Bona-vista-Twillingate that I was not attempting to amuse either the committee or myself in moving this amendment. I do believe the amendment involves a matter of principle. However, I have another comment to make. I listened with considerable interest and, I

must say, with a good deal of concern, to the assurance of the Minister of Public Works to members of his own party when he indicated to them that in his own good time the Prime Minister would take such actions as are in the best interests of Canada. It seems to me there is a rather serious implication there. Parliament established those offices some years ago and now, simply by leaving them vacant, they apparently do not exist. When we ask, and I am sure the members of the minister's party ask, when will these traditional offices be filled, we have the Minister of Public Works assuring us that in his own good time the Prime Minister will decide what is best for us. No longer will parliament decide. We are to go home from this session and rest assured that in his own good time the Prime Minister will decide what is best for parliament and, presumably, for the government of Canada.
I must agree, Mr. Chairman, at this time this whole debate seems a little bit like a phantom debate in that we are all really arguing against the existence of or against the argument of someone who is not here and yet who hears us. It is a rather weird atmosphere that seems to prevail. One member from the opposition rises and appeals to the Minister of National Defence who he thinks has influence with this non-existent personality who hears but who cannot be seen, and asks him whether he will use his influence. Then another member of the opposition appeals to the Minister of Public Works and asks will he please use his influence. I know it is very hard for us in the opposition to use our influence upon someone who can hear us but whom we cannot see. He cannot even see our facial contortions to know whether we are speaking in levity or in seriousness.
I must point out that the amount of money being asked for would, according to the wording of the vote, enable the appointment of 24 parliamentary assistants at the end of August. If they were appointed at the end of this month, the amounts that they would be entitled to for the remainder of the fiscal year on a pro rata basis would be $2,333 each, I believe. If we divide the vote of $62,000 by $2,333 it would permit the appointment of 24 parliamentary assistants. What the Minister of Public Works actually is asking is the right to appoint more parliamentary assistants to cabinet ministers than there are cabinet ministers with portfolios. I feel that this is introducing a new approach and something is being asked for which was never intended when parliamentary assistants were first established.
The Minister of Public Works referred to this amendment as a red herring. All I can

say is that almost the whole of his speech, besides referring to the mystic personality, was a green herring pulled across 14 vacant seats.
Amendment negatived: Yeas, 20; nays, 71.


Charles Edward Rea: I declare the
amendment lost.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
190.	To provide for an allowance to the Deputy Chairman of Committees, $2,000.
Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, on this vote I would at least like to recommend to the government, or to the Speaker particularly, that this vote be taken into further consideration. As a matter of fact, I see no justification for the fact that parliamentary assistants should be allowed $4,000 a year and the Deputy Chairman of committees, who has in fact a year-round job if he wants to be well-informed, and especially in his initial year it must be a terrific mental load to inform oneself of all the rules of years gone by, should not get the same amount. I fail to see why the Deputy Chairman of committees should not be granted at least as much as a parliamentary assistant.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Library of parliament-
191.	General administration, $354,205.
Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the Speaker, in the sense that he is the spokesman for the library of parliament, on the recently issued pamphlet dealing with the use of the library and the various facilities that are available to members. I hope he will convey the appreciation of the house to the librarian and his staff for the preparation of this document and the general service they have rendered. I should like to ask the Speaker whether he can give us any information with regard to the head of the library and his retirement. I understand that he is beyond the actual retirement age and I was wondering whether the Speaker could tell us if he is going to continue to the end of the year or longer, whether any consideration has been given to another appointment and what the general situation is.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry I cannot say more than that I believe Mr. Hardy expects an early retirement. I cannot say the exact date. I have not personally had any cause yet to consider the question of a successor but I believe that it will have to be dealt with very shortly.


John Whitney Pickersgill: If the hon. member will
permit me, may I suggest that he direct his
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question to the leader of the house because the office of parliamentary librarian is a crown appointment.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I am quite aware of that and I want to go into that now. We would appreciate it if the Speaker would bring to the attention of the house leader that several years ago the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate in his ministerial capacity shepherded a bill through the house in relation to the library of parliament that struck a few sparks from the Conservative ranks. They objected quite strenuously to the bill and its general ramifications with respect to the library of parliament.
I might point out that Dr. Blair, who is gone from the house, the hon. member for York-Humber, the present Minister of Transport and a number of other leading lights of the Conservative party at that time objected quite strenuously to what was involved in the legislation and made some strong suggestions with respect to it. I should like to remind the house leader and the Speaker that since this retirement is pending now would be the time for the government to take action with regard to the matter. If they dislike the legislation as much now as they did when it was passed by the house this would be the time for amendments to be made and it might be reasonable to postpone the appointment of a new librarian until the government has taken the whole question into consideration. I can assure the government that from the point of view of the group in this part of the house we would be very strongly in favour of amendments to the act in line with the general position taken by this party in the debate several years ago.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions and other Benefits-
192.	Pension to the unmarried sister of the late Colonel Harry Baker, M.P., $700.
Erhart Regier: Could the Speaker give us the history of this vote?


Mr. Speaker:: I can say very little more than what appears in the vote. The hon. member is speaking of the pension to the widow of the late Colonel Harry Baker, M.P. He was a member of the House of Commons and was killed on active service in the first war.


Paul Joseph James Martin: He lost his life.


Mr. Speaker:: He was killed on active service in the first war.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think it is the unmarried sister, not the widow.


Mr. Speaker:: Provision was first made for this pension in the supplementary estimates of 1918-19 and I assumed it was the widow.

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John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the item refers to the unmarried sister and that Your Honour overlooked it inadvertently.


Mr. Speaker:: All I can say is that this dependent of the late Colonel Baker is still living at an advanced age and is receiving the benefit which parliament first voted in 1918.


Erhart Regier: The reason I asked is that there have been increases in pensions, awards and incomes for almost everyone in the country. I know that this is only one of a number of such pensions found here and there throughout the departments but I wonder whether the government has ever given any attention to the possibility of allowing these people a reasonable increase to compensate for inflation.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not know the circumstances of the lady in question but I will take the hon. member's suggestion under consideration and will perhaps be able to give more information next year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Charles Edward Rea: That completes the estimates under legislation.


Mr. Speaker:: May I thank hon. members for their consideration and also for what they have said about the staff of the legislative branch who are unable to speak for themselves and I am sure will appreciate the kind things that have been said about their services.


Charles Edward Rea: The committee will now take up the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES 266. Departmental administration, $731,410.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Is the minister not going to make a statement?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I am waiting for my staff to arrive.


Frank Howard: We just wanted to make sure that the minister's staff got here. We know that the minister is itching to get to his feet to make a comprehensive statement.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources were considered by the standing committee on mines, forests and waters at 14 meetings extending over a period of 25 to 28 hours. The minutes of proceedings and evidence of the standing committee are extensive. I think those members who attended the committee meetings will realize that a great deal of


information was advanced which I hope was of value to them. Then, on the supply motion some two weeks ago I spoke at some length on the principles behind the development program in so far as the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources is affected.
At this time I should like to pay my respects and express my gratitude to the members of the committee which met so many times. I might tell hon. members that the average lost time due to late arrival was only five minutes. I think that is remarkable in view of the fact that out of a committee of 35 we had an attendance that varied between 18 and 25 and many days the committee met at 9 o'clock in the morning, including Mondays. At this time members of the committee of supply have a right to ask any questions they like, and I am sure the department will be very happy to provide any information we can that will be of assistance in helping members to pass these estimates.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, although the committee on mines, forests and waters did study the estimates of this department, we expected that the minister would make a far more comprehensive statement for the benefit of other members of the house than he made in the short time he was on his feet. There were a great number of questions that were not asked in the committee, and the reason I submit they were not asked is that it was felt, I am sure by most hon. members of the committee, that there was little information supplied in connection with the Northwest Territories administration and lands branch. As a matter of fact, there was a motion moved in the committee that we pass all the items. At that time I said, knowing full well that the committee was going to pass this motion, that I would ask the questions I had in mind when the estimates reached the House of Commons.
Of course, we heard a great deal in that committee from the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources concerning the vision of the north; the inventory of our resources in Canada; the problem of transportation, and other subjects relating to the material development of the north. I do not intend, at this particular time, to spend too much time on this material development because I have before me evidence relating to the human development of the Northwest Territories. I bring to the attention of this house today a very sad picture, a picture that dims that great vision of the minister and the government which was proclaimed during the last election campaign and since. The minister has stated inside this house, in committee and outside this house, the great

need for development of the north in a material way. He has mentioned also the human development of that area. He has referred to the development of mines, minerals, oil, gas and all the rest of it, but he always mentions in connection with that the human development of the area.
The other day I asked the minister if he would table the evidence taken at an inquest that was held at Baker Lake in the Northwest Territories in the month of July into the starvation of 14 Eskimo people. Yesterday the minister was good enough to table the evidence taken at the inquest. He was also good enough to give me a copy of the autopsy report made by Dr. Wallace of Winnipeg on the bodies of these Eskimos who died at Garry lake. At that time the minister felt that the autopsy report should not be tabled. I communicated with him by telephone this morning and suggested that the autopsy report had been submitted by the R.C.M.P. officer at Baker Lake as exhibit
1	in the inquest, and for that reason I thought that, although this report had been given to me in confidence, I could not agree that the minister should not table it for the perusal of the members of the house. He agreed at that time to table this document and intimated to me I could use what was in it in this debate.
In 1956, Mr. Chairman, I spoke in this house concerning the serious depletion of caribou in the Northwest Territories. I should like to go back and quote from what I said on February 27, 1956, as it appears in volume
2	of the Hansard reports of that session. I was speaking of this serious depletion of the caribou, and I said this, as reported at page 1603 of Hansard for that date:
At the rate caribou have been depleting in numbers, six years from now there will not be one living caribou in the Northwest Territories.
I went on to say, on the same page, and I was speaking of conservation at that time, suggesting that conservation measures would have to be adopted by the government in order to save these animals which are the lifeblood of the people who live in that area:
If the natives do not take those caribou-and of course if we are to follow sound conservation policies we shall be obliged to restrict the number of caribou they take-something must be done to feed these people.
I said that something must be done to feed these people if we are to restrict the taking of caribou. These inland Eskimos of the Northwest Territories, as you know, are entirely dependent on caribou. They cannot grow anything in the soil. There are lakes to fish. We do not know how may fish there are. There has never been any survey to ascertain the number of fish. The caribou is
Supply-Northern Affairs the only-not the only, but the prime source of food for these people, and that is what I said at that time. I said also at page 1604: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would say to this house that caribou mean no more to the average person in Canada, and I could talk until I am blue in the face, than the buffalo did before the railroads went west. But in my part of the country they are the very lifeblood. We eat this animal. Something has to be done.
What has been done? You have all read newspaper articles which have appeared during the past winter-these I have are from the Winnipeg Free Press, and here is one headed "Starvation and Freezing kill Nine Eskimos". There are a number of them, all on the starvation of Eskimos. The government of the day was warned in 1956.
The government of this day has been warned by the reports of the Canadian wildlife service with regard to caribou in that area. A survey has been going on for two years with regard to this serious depletion. When I spoke in 1956 there were 338,000 caribou according to the estimates of the Canadian wildlife service officers in my area, which was 320,000 less than what the population was five years previously. I said at that time-and I repeat it-that in six years, with the way the caribou were being depleted, there will not be a living caribou within the Northwest Territories.
What happened this winter? This winter at Garry lake, at Chantrey inlet and Pelly lake in the Northwest Territories we had, according to newspaper clippings, people dying of starvation. I have had information from Baker Lake indirectly that last August 3 the missionary at Garry lake went into Baker Lake and reported that there were no caribou and very few fish. To most hon. members this probably does not really mean anything. Caribou are taken not only for meat but for clothing. However, it was reported on August 3 that there were no caribou. On August 16 an aircraft went into Pelly and Garry lakes and dropped off food but we do not know what food. I understand it was the family allowance food. With prices at Baker Lake, you know just about how far the family allowance would go. I have no evidence of how much food was left there on August 15.
In December the same report was made: No caribou; very few fish; the people in dire circumstances; near starvation. On December 15 another aircraft went out and dropped off food. I might say that it dropped off food without contacting the Eskimos. It dropped it off on the trail or in some building between Pelly lake and Garry lake, in a cache, in a building, without contacting the Eskimos. What happened? On December 15 they got this food. The newspaper articles, all written

Supply-Northern Affairs in April, May and June, report there was starvation amongst these Eskimos.
The other day the minister, when I asked him whether an inquest had been held, said that there was no formal inquest, not as they are held in the provinces, but that some sort of inquest was held. From the sessional papers I find that there was an inquest. I do not see any reason why inquests should be any different in the Northwest Territories from what they are in the provinces. As a matter of fact, this is the first time I have ever heard of one. But in this evidence, which is very vague I might say, we find that the coroner took charge of this inquest. He named the people who died. Then the R.C.M.P. constable at that post gave a statement which, as far as the evidence is concerned, started on April 24. I think I should read into the record the evidence of this inquest. In this evidence there are only two people who have statements. That is all we have. The first witness is Corporal V. D. R. Wilson. The report reads as follows:
Corpora] V.D.R. Wilson, R.C.M.P., Baker Lake detachment of the said Northwest Territories being sworn, saith:
On April 24th, 1958, I patrolled to Pelly lake airstrip in aircraft CF-GOV. At Pelly lake I met Tinark E2-304 and Kokshout E2-302.
That number is the one on the tag that they put on all Eskimos in the Northwest Territories.
These men told me that a number of Eskimos in the Garry lake area had died of starvation in February and March and that most of the Eskimos were hungry. Tinark told me that the building containing food supplies had burned down in February with the loss of all supplies remaining in the building. I obtained a list of the names of people who had died. I returned to Baker Lake in aircraft CF-GOV.
On April 26th, 1958,-
That is two days later.
-I patrolled to Pelly lake airstrip in aircraft CF-MPP.
That is an R.C.M.P. aircraft.
I took in a supply of food and left the food with Tinark and Kokshout. I obtained further evidence from Tinark about the events of the winter. I returned to Baker Lake in aircraft CF-MPP.
On May 6, 1958,-
Which was ten days or more later.
-I patrolled to the Garry lake area In an R.C.A.F. Otter aircraft. With the assistance of Tinark I located the bodies of twelve of the deceased persons. On June 1st, 1958,-
Which was just about a month later.
-I patrolled to the Garry lake area in an R.C.A.F. Otter and arranged evacuation of the twelve bodies to Baker Lake.
On June 5th, 1958, a preliminary inquest was held to view the bodies of the deceased persons. On June 6th, 1958, post-mortem examinations of the bodies were made by Dr. A. C. Wallace, M.D.
I have received a copy of report written by Dr.

Wallace and I hereby submit this as Exhibit One. In this report Dr. Wallace states that all of the deceased died of starvation and/or exposure; he could find no other likely cause of death.
Then he goes on to say what happened at that particular time in June. With regard to the finding of the bodies he said this:
The body of E2-356 Peewa was found at the Pelly lake airstrip:	It was in a small building
covered over with a number of mattresses. It was bare from the waist up; there were no shoes on the feet. Arnaoyuk was a small baby.
In this he is referring to each one of the people who had died of starvation.
This body was found in a small cardboard box on a hilltop behind an abandoned Eskimo campsite. The body of E2-326 Kadluk was found wrapped in a mattress cover on a hilltop back of an Eskimo campsite. The body had been placed in the cover after death. The bodies of E2-328 Akkikunga, E2-329 Tutiktok, E2-412 Igupta, E2-453 Poongook and E2-537 Korschout were found in a snow house. The first two named were on the sleeping platform, the others had been buried in a hole dug in the sleeping platform in the snow.
If any hon. member has ever been in an igloo he will know that inside the igloo they build a platform of ice or snow blocks to lie on. Those first three men were reported to have been buried in this platform. They had apparently died first. The other two men died on top of them.
The bodies of E2-327 and E2-507 Kowetalik were found in the abandoned mission building at Pelly lake. They were on a bed covered with a sleeping bag. The body of E2-353 Itteroyuk was found on the ice at Garry lake. It was face down in the snow and completely clothed. He appeared to have died while walking.
I imagine this means he had apparently died while he was out walking.
The body of E2-277 Nearkook was found on a hilltop near an Eskimo camp site where it had been placed by other Eskimos. The bodies of E2-590 Sibviark and E2-57I Sirkrinerk, both small children, were located near Garry lake by the special constables.
This was the evidence of the R.C.M.P. at the inquest. The only other evidence was given by an Eskimo whose number is E2-304 Tinark-the man who was referred to in the police evidence-the man with whom the food was left on April 24. He said this:
During the winter of 1957-58 I lived on the shore of Garry lake south of the R.C. mission building. There were not many caribou during the winter and the fishing was not very good. There was a supply of store food in a building at Pelly lake and I looked after this food although I was not at the building all the time.
Apparently he was the caretaker and the man in charge of this food.
Because there were few caribou and the fishing was not good the food in the building was used up quickly. All the people were hungry. They were not sick, except with colds. Our clothing was not very good.

The plane brought us food in December and this food lasted until February. It was stored in the small building at Pelly lake. Everyone got food from this building. If they had fox skins, they bought food and left the skins as payment. If they had no fox skins, they took the food they needed and left no payment. Sometime in February the building with the food burned down. There was not a lot of food left in it but there was tobacco, tea, fat, ammunition; also food belonging to the R.C.M.P. at Baker Lake and some dog food.
I was told that Peewa had come to the building for food and had stayed in the building for two nights. He tried to light a make-shift gasoline stove in the building and the stove blew up. The building burned down. Most of the people died after the building burned down; during March they died.
I would point out that this Eskimo says that when the building was burned down there was very little food, only tea, tobacco, fat and ammunition.
Near the end of March the plane brought food to Pelly lake and all the Eskimos came in from the camps to get it. The plane came again in April and brought more food because the caribou had not come and the fishing was still not good.
Of course, this was after they had all died-after the starvation period.
During the winter Kadluk had foxes and he got food from the building. He and his family came to my camp in January and February and I gave them food. After the fire Kadluk and his family had all died. They were hungry and could not walk far.
This was the evidence at the inquest. This is all. There were no questions. But I want to know how much food was left in December, the last time contact was made with the Eskimos? Was the amount of food left in December considered enough to last until March 22, the next time they would contact the Eskimos, bearing in mind that the caribou had been decreasing year after year? The people concerned had been warned about it. What plans did they make? Is this the sort of planning that was made for the people who live entirely off caribou? I want to read some of these autopsy reports to the committee: I am not going to read them all: it makes me too sick. Here is one. It refers to the Eskimo Kadluk. He was the man referred to by the Eskimo who had died along with his whole family. We do not know how they died-hunger, I suppose- but as far as the evidence goes, they just died. This is the autopsy report of Dr. Wallace, the clinical history of E2-326 Kadluk:
Clinical history; This 50 year old man was the first of an entire family to perish in the Garry lake area. He is said to have eaten a large amount of dog meat and also some time near the end of February to have fallen in the water. He apparently escaped from this accident and got home successfully. The following day he is said to have had oedema of the arms and legs but complained of no other symptoms. He died a few weeks later.
Supply-Northern Affairs No other history is available of his illness, except that his entire family is said to have been sick from eating dog meat.
External appearance; length 5'3", weight 107 lbs. The body is that of a fairly stocky but somewhat emaciated male Eskimo. His outer clothing is missing except for his boots. A full suit of inner cariboo clothing is present and in addition a woollen sweater and an underwear vest is worn. There are no mitts. There is a pair of inner and outer cariboo boots and in addition a pair of canvas boots covering these. No marks of violence of any type are seen externally. There is practically no subcutaneous fat anywhere and the retro-orbital tissues consist mainly of fibrous watery material. In spite of the lack of fat the body appears fairly muscular. Small white pimples are present on the arms.
They are all the same. It is criminal.


Charles Edward Rea: Order. I must advise the hon. member his time has expired.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Charles Edward Rea: Has the hon. member the unanimous consent of the committee to continue?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I shall not read all of this report but I wish to choose a few excerpts to illustrate how serious this matter is. I ask hon. gentlemen of this committee to consider this thought. Let us imagine that 14 people in this chamber occupying seven seats were to starve to death. That does not sound very serious, does it? It is a simple statement of fact to say that 14 people have starved to death. But we in Canada have little personal experience with death as a result of starvation. We speak of people starving to death in the Far East or in the Arctic and there is no real or personal association in our minds. But if 14 people in any part of Canada other than that part which I have the honour to represent were to die of starvation the entire country would be aroused in indignation that conditions of this kind could exist in our society at this stage of the development of our country.
I wish to quote again from a report describing the circumstances under which a small child died. The report reads as follows:
Akkikunga or Putulik (Female Infant)-E2-609.
The identity of this child appears in some doubt, but Putulik E2-609 is listed in the nurse's notes as being the son of Kadluk. This is a female baby, also identified to my understanding, as one of Kadluk's family.
History: The nurse's notes give the birth date of Putulik as September 2, 1957. The R.C.M.P. notes give the birth date of Akkikunga, which may be the correct identification of this child, as January 1958. The baby is only loosely wrapped in tarpaulin and measures 18 inches in length. The history is that the mother Kabluk had insufficient milk to feed him.

Supply-Northern Affairs
The External Examination: Weight is only four pounds. The baby appears extremely small, wizened and devoid of fat. This child was not examined further: the extremely low weight of the child makes survival even under ideal circumstances a very precarious thing. Under the circumstances prevailing it is concluded the child's weight and nutrition would be incompatible with survival.
In each of these cases the doctor has found that there was no fat on the bodies of these people, no fat even behind the eye balls, and in practically every case the clothing was gone. For instance, in the case of the man who had gone to the food cache to light the stove it is reported that he escaped without his parka. He went to another building in the area because he did not have sufficient clothing to protect him from the cold. It must be remembered that all of these people were in the same position without heat or food. It is stated that he crawled between two mattresses in the shack and he was found frozen there wearing nothing from the waist up. He wore two or three sets of trousers but no footwear. When the minister tables this report it will be available for every hon. member to read. In every case the autopsy reports indicate that nothing was found in the stomachs and intestines of these people except caribou hair. In almost every case it is reported that at the time of death the people were not wearing their caribou clothing which is necessary in that country. I can therefore reach only two conclusions. Either some one removed the clothing from the bodies of these people in order to clothe themselves or the people who died had eaten their clothing, their boots, parkas and the caribou rugs on which they lie in an effort to keep themselves alive.
There is another disturbing aspect to these incidents and to illustrate it I shall refer to the case of the death of Peewa. I have already read the evidence of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police constable who testified that the body was found in a small building covered over with a number of mattresses. It was bare from the waist up and there were no shoes on the feet. The autopsy report refers to Peewa by the name of Arnardjuar, case No. E 2-356. It is the same man because he was in the warehouse fire. Under the heading "External Examination" the autopsy report reads:
All reports agree that this man was frozen following the warehouse fire in February. His age is given as somewhere between 18 and 21 years in various reports. He is said to have been in the warehouse when it took fire and got out but without his parka. He crawled into some mattresses in a nearby building and was later found frozen.
External examination reveals an adult Eskimo measuring five feet three inches in height and weighing 105 pounds. No mitts or gloves are worn and no footwear is present. No clothing is present
rMr. Hardie.]

from the waist up. There are two pairs of canvas trousers, one pair of pyjamas, one pair of tweed trousers and one pair of under pants worn. No caribou clothing was present whatsoever. The left foot has been amputated probably post mortem. The appearance suggests that either wolves or dogs have caused this lesion ... No other sign of violence are seen and there is no clear evidence of frost bite.
The autopsy report indicates that the left foot was amputated probably after death whereas the Royal Canadian Mounted Police report says there were no shoes on the feet. What happened between the time the R.C.M.P. discovered this man frozen to death between the mattresses and the time the body was removed? The autopsy report suggests that either dogs or wolves caused the lesion and there were no other signs of violence.
This is a matter on which I could speak at considerable length. We have heard the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources speak about the great vision of northern development in terms of both material and human potentiality. It disturbs me that in Canada we should see posters, hear radio announcements and television commercials inviting the people of this country to subscribe to an organization called CARE which looks after hungry people in other countries often showing photographs of children with bloated stomachs and protruding ribs when at the same time in our country conditions exist such as those I have placed before the committee this afternoon in which 14 people starved to death.
Do not forget that. This is only one instance; this is Garry lake. What happened all over that area last winter? The minister is smiling. He is going to have an answer for this, I suppose. It does not matter to me what the answer is, no matter what he says we are not going to bring back those who have died. When we are planning for development I think we should do something about these people. I want to read from the evidence given when the estimates of the department were before the committee on mines, forests and waters. In regard to this matter the minister said this, as reported at page 152 of the evidence and proceedings of the committee on mines, forests and waters: If an Eskimo is in trouble in any part of the territory, no matter how remote, this is our responsibility right here in Ottawa.
I will leave it at that. First, we have to realize and we do realize, and the minister realizes as well as I do, that the development of northern Canada has to take in human development. It has to look after the problems facing our native peoples in that area. Some planning should be done. As I said in 1956, if there are no caribou in

that area, why leave the people there? Move them to an area where they can live. If there are no caribou and they cannot live off the land, move them to where there is something on which they can live, namely fish or white whale or whatever it might be. But do something about this vision and do something for the poor people of the country so that they will not die from starvation, cold and lack of clothing or because the caribou have not come.
Just imagine yourself out a thousand miles from nowhere, with no food, and building a snow house and nothing in it to eat, no light, nothing. Put yourself in their position. Finally, you have to start eating the caribou hide that you have to lie on and your parka that you have to wear in order to live. This, Mr. Chairman, is a serious matter. It is a matter that should be looked into. It should have been looked into before. The minister knows that I have read speeches of his in which he has talked about the decline of the caribou. As I said before, we have to plan to look after not only the material development of our north country but also the human development.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, I think the remarks of the hon. member for Mackenzie River express what has been said on several occasions before by various members of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources about the seriousness of adjusting the few hundred Eskimos who live in this vast area of Keewatin to the fact that the caribou supply has almost finished, if it is not finished for all practical purposes.
Just three weeks ago, at the opening of the Northwest Territories council meeting here in Ottawa, the commissioner of the Northwest Territories told this whole sombre story to the members of that council and outlined to them some of the things that we had in action and some of the things that we would have to do. I think the committee will be pleased to learn that this matter has not gone on without full awareness and heartburning on the part of the members of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I think I made very clear to the members of the committee on mines, forests and waters that the human resources of the north must be preserved not only for the material advantage that would come from their proper use but also because we are dealing with our fellowmen.
When I look over the story of what has been accomplished I know it is but a small beginning, but I will let the committee judge whether this matter of the starvation of people, which is a recurring thing in the north, has gone unnoticed. I might add a personal note. If any person wants to read
Supply-Northern Affairs the diaries of Samuel Hearne, the first white man who went through this area, of his three trips to Coppermine, he will find the same story of privation and starvation is told there.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I hope the government has done something since Hearne's time.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: The hon. member for Mackenzie River made a very moving speech, and I sat here and made no interruptions. The whole committee listened attentively because their hearts were moved by the story he told. I would like a chance just to say something, without any appeal to the emotions, on what has been done. Last year the department set up a team of biologists and wild life experts to follow the remaining caribou herds, for several reasons. One was to let the Indians and the Eskimos know where the migrations were moving, which would give them a better chance to intercept them at the crossing places over the rivers and other places where they go. Second, they are trying to find out what is the cause of the drop in the number of calves each year as opposed to the normal drop.
Then there is a second type of activity which was carried on last year, and which is still continuing. The three prairie provinces, the government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government have been meeting and working out some form of coordinated program to make certain that what is left of the caribou herds is reserved as much as possible and, as well we can possibly manage, for the use of those who rely entirely on the caribou. These are the two things that were started by the department last year for dealing with the shortage of caribou at the present time.
There is a list of six or seven things that I should like to mention. I think everybody in the committee realizes that the area dealt with by the hon. member for Mackenzie River, generally speaking, concerns the Keewatin area, which is the area west of Hudson bay and extending through the tundra to the forest lands close to the Mackenzie. In this area there are only a few hundred Eskimos, who are nomadic people, and who have existed and survived there with the greatest of difficulty for many centuries. Only a few have survived, and it is one of the great stories of mankind that the human mind and the human body can stand what they have stood. But they are there. Their traditional food, which is caribou, is disappearing.
These are some of the things that we are doing to meet the situation as outlined by and which is inherent in the remarks of the hon member for Mackenzie River. The first thing
3322	HOUSE OF
Supply-Northern Affairs that I have on my list is that we are moving them into settlements where we can look after them. The newest one is at Tavani on the west coast of Hudson bay. In the first stages it will only look after 100 of these Eskimos but it is a start. The matter of moving buildings in there and of getting people to man the staffs is a problem of the department and we are meeting it.
The second thing is that we have arranged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in the last few weeks to co-ordinate their patrols of the area with our northern service officers. The third thing is that we are trying to arrange at the present time for an extra aircraft which can be devoted to going to the relief of these nomadic bands of a few families who move around looking for the caribou and fish that are available. The fourth thing that we are moving toward is the setting up of caches of food. These will be supervised caches because I think the house will recognize that if we set up unsupervised caches these nomadic people would live on the caches and, of course, that would destroy the very thing we are trying to maintain, namely their traditional independence and their ability to look after themselves. I will come back to the actual details of Garry lake in a moment.
The fifth thing we are doing is a federal responsibility and there is no sidestepping it. At their last meeting the Northwest Territories council did something which I think is commendable. They have taken steps in the Mackenzie river delta area to set up a co-operative program whereby the Indians and Eskimos, traditional enemies of the north, will work together to share trapping areas in the district. The sixth thing on the list is the question of providing people to supervise and look after these vast areas with so few inhabitants.
When the hon. member for Mackenzie River spoke in 1956 and complained about the lack of action of the previous administration there were two northern service officers in this area. Last year we got the number up to three. This year the house will be glad to know that we are getting two more and if we did not get so much opposition at times on the question of a deficit I would hope that we could extend that step by step and make certain that there are trained officials in the area who can handle the problem. The increase in staff I have just mentioned does not include other departments such as the R.C.M.P. which has eight constables in the area. We are hoping with this slight increase in staff, with co-ordination between ourselves and the R.C.M.P. and with the help of local people such as missionaries and fur traders
fMr. Hamilton (Qu'Appelle).]

in the area to set up caches in various parts which will be supervised and which the Eskimos will be aware exist. With such caches under the jurisdiction and control of people who will represent us in looking after them we hope that the starvation which occurred in two or three places in the Northwest Territories last winter will not be repeated.
But I should like to tell the house that we have no assurance whatsoever that in an area which the hon. member has described as a thousand miles from nowhere that we can completely prevent the starvation of family groups in that area. Family groups can exist just 20 miles from a cache of food and still starve. The person who has control of that cache, whether it is a Roman Catholic missionary as it was at Garry lake or somebody else, will have no awareness of what is going on just a few miles away if there is not this connection between the two.
I might mention that at the present time the department has no planes of its own. We have to use planes of other departments and we have their co-operation. I might also mention that a northern service officer in this district has provided his own plane to try to serve these people better and I think that demonstrates the dedication of these few, gallant men of our northern service who are trying to meet these tremendous problems. We do pay, of course, a gasoline allowance for the plane.
I think I have given a survey which illustrates very clearly that we are moving to meet the problem raised by the hon. member for Mackenzie River. I should like to repeat that the problem has not been kept secret. When you read the speech of the commissioner of the Northwest Territories to the council meeting here on July 14 and realize that out of 12J pages over 8 pages deal with the very difficult problem of the Eskimos, for which the Northwest Territories council accepts full responsibility for the handling of this matter on behalf of the federal government, I think you will realize that the department, to the very limit of the human resources of the department, has tried to meet this situation.
It is true that in this vast area, and having regard to the sum of money we are allowed to spend, there have been serious episodes like the one we heard described in such a harrowing fashion. I can only assure the house that the department will do its level best to make sure that this type of thing will not happen in the future.


Mr. Martin (Timmins):: Mr. Chairman, I had the privilege this year of serving on

the committee that dealt with the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and first of all I should like to say what a pleasure it was to work with that committee. As was pointed out by the minister, the attendance of members showed the interest that they had in the committee. I should also like to remark at this time on the enthusiasm for his department that is so apparent in the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. He appears to be completely dedicated and certainly seems to have really tied into his job in an endeavour to do it to the best of his ability. In fact, I think it became quite obvious to various members of the committee that the minister was indeed the creator of the vision that we have heard so much about in the last few months. I believe we can give him full marks for being the one who sold it to the Prime Minister who propounded it across the country with such vigour and, indeed, such success.
However, during the quite lengthy statement that the minister made at the first meeting of the standing committee we also saw something else, that apparently the minister and the department have a very clear view of the problems facing the department with respect to northern development. It was quite apparent from his statement, and I intend to make several references to it, that they recognize just what is the big and important problem that we face. But, of course, to recognize a problem is not to find a solution and I must say that where I have to differ with the minister and the government is with respect to the solution they propose with regard to northern development. To illustrate what I have said about the minister recognizing the problems, I should like to refer to page 11 of the minutes of proceedings and evidence of the standing committee on mines, forests and waters where I find the following in the minister's statement:
To be very blunt about It, if you go back to the experience of the second world war you will find that the American government was very much concerned about the rapid depletion of their strategic resources and there was set up a presidential committee in that country to examine into this matter. This committee reported in 1952 and their report is known as the Paley report. The Paley report says in plain English that the resources of the United States of America are not unlimited and that, at the present time, they are in a deficit position so far as total resources are concerned to maintain their industrial economy. Naturally they have to seek out reserves both of energy and mineral resources in every land.
That was a very clear recognition of the fact that our neighbours to the south, in the very short period of approximately 50 years, will
Supply-Northern Affairs see the end of their vast natural resources. We go to the next page, where the minister points out, and I quote:
-we are the nation on the northern half of this continent and we want to make certain that the interests, not only of the present generation, are protected, but that the interests of generations unborn will also be preserved.
Certainly, Mr. Chairman, that is one of the very important and very grave responsibilities which this government has today. We have to think not only of ourselves, but we have to think, as has not been done unfortunately in the past, of generations that will come after us. The minister continues:
-so that we can work out an attack on this problem of building a nation of from 50 millions to 100 millions of people based on a concept which I think I would like to call the conservation concept.
There, of course, is the key to the whole situation. In this country we have to embark on a program of conservation such as this North American continent, unfortunately, has not seen in the past. He goes on:
If I might interrupt my thoughts for a moment to suggest that if the American people had to relive the nineteenth century over again knowing what they now know about their economic history, they would not have had to wait until the turn of the nineteenth century to start these great conservation methods that their nation has now embarked upon.
In other words if they, in the United States, had realized, as we have the opportunity of realizing today, what the situation was they would not be locking the door after the horse had been stolen but would have, as we have a chance to do, taken some precautions before the theft took place. I continue to quote from the minister's remarks:
We in Canada, whether because an act of grace, or because of our geographical location, or simply as a result of inertia, have not had our resources depleted so widely as the American resources have been depleted, without plan.
Now, there is a strange statement to come from a Conservative cabinet minister. Generally we look for a statement of that nature from the so-called planning socialists. I should like to compliment the minister once more on his grasp of the situation. He said:
We may have, either by the grace of God, or by our own inertia, been saved from having misused our resources.
Certainly there again we find a recognition of what is happening and what we have seen happening south of us over the last number of years. Then, the minister said:
I would like to go back to our own country. I do think that if the people who now live in the central provinces, particularly in Ontario, had to relive the last 100 years, knowing now what they knew then, great changes would be made in the planning and use of resources. There is no question of attaching blame for this at all. It is simply that

Supply-Northern Affairs we have a determination to avoid these mistakes, if possible, in our country as far as the future development and efficient use of those resources.
We do not have to go very far beyond this capital city of Ottawa to see a striking example of that very thing to which the minister has referred. We had at one time, within a distance of 200 or 300 miles, one of the greatest stands of white pine possibly in the world. Today, like the caribou of the north country, this white pine is practically extinct. Surely that is a shining example of something we cannot afford to have happen in this country. There was a time possibly when the resources of this country were believed to be unlimited. We could permit people to go through and ravish the countryside for miles and miles, and what did it matter? There was lots of undeveloped country farther along. Certainly we have had it demonstrated to us that that is not the case. At one time the people of the United States thought the same thing, that their resources were unlimited; that it was quite all right to allow people to run riot across the country because there was always the horizon beckoning them farther along. Certainly, that is not so and I, for one, am pleased to see that the minister realizes it is not so. He goes on to say:
Because we have great reserves of minerals of all kinds, Canada is a great centre of interest in an economico-political way. For that reason, some consideration and logic had to come in respect of exploitation of these resources.
Mr. Chairman, I say it is about time we got some reason and logic into the use and exploitation of our resources in this country. On page 20 of the report we find the following remarks:
-there is no use in doing all this work if there is not some thought given to a long range conservation concept of the most efficient use of those resources.
A little farther down, in the second paragraph, he said:
-I want to make it clear that unless we formulate a plan for the use of our resources we may lose the long range strategic necessity of having control of those resources in our hands, either for world use, or for people over the world, or most effective use in the North American economic picture.
In these remarks of the minister which I have quoted, as I said at the start, he appears to have a true and complete grasp of the situation. The problem is recognized but then, Mr. Chairman, we come to the question of a solution. In the remarks of the minister, and in the further discussion that took place at meetings of the committee, I am afraid the only indication of a solution offered by this government was that the taxpayers of this country should put up the money to open up this country, and then we should turn it

over to the same people described in the minister's remarks who ravished the resources of the country to the south. Is that a solution? In the process of the depletion of the resources of the United States in the last number of years, at least these people developed the country themselves. These people who made the mistakes that the minister pointed out so well, mistakes that we cannot allow to happen in this country, will be the ones who will develop these resources here. According to the minister's plan we are going to develop the country, open it up, and hand it over to them on a silver platter with no curbs or checks whatever to prevent them doing the same thing as we have seen them do to the south of us.
I refer to the remarks of the minister on page 19:
And If we, in our planning can put certain facts and figures before the people of Canada either in the form of energy figures, the willingness to build roads, or railways, or sea routes, or water routes, or air routes, then we are providing for these capital goods within the function of government- power, communication and transportation-to allow private enterprise to go in and develop these resources.
I ask you, Mr. Chairman, is that a solution? This government has done an excellent job on facing up to what the problems are, but what is the solution? This vision of this northern development, as outlined by the minister so well and so enthusiastically to this committee, could be, if properly handled, the greatest boon that this country has ever seen. The proper precautions should be taken to prohibit the same thing happening that he pointed out had happened in the country to the south of us. If, on the other hand, the taxpayers of Canada are going to have to put up the money to open up this country and hand it over to the same people to do the same thing as they did in the country to the south, then I am afraid I will have to say that would be the biggest sellout that this country has ever seen.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I do not want to enter into a debate of this kind on the relative merits of private enterprise and socialism. However, I think the hon. member for Timmins has been very kind to me and I think he would appreciate it if I just say one word that I think would add a little bit to his understanding of what I said in the committee. I made it very clear that I considered it to be the responsibility of government to provide those capital goods such as railroads and power which are the type of things that seem to fall under the category of things that should be provided by the government. But I also made it equally clear that any time we open up any country and any successful operation developed that we

have a very heavy tax in this country called the corporation tax which takes half the profit. I pointed out the merits of the idea. If you spend $5 million or $6 million of the taxpayers' money which will trigger off several hundred million dollars worth of investment of private enterprise backing and so on for opening up our natural resources and if that operation is successful and if they make a profit, we would get half the profit through the corporation tax. I pointed out my strong belief that for every dollar the taxpayer is asked to spend in opening up this northern country, all the rest of Canada would benefit many times over.
The second point in my reply is purely political and not designed to stir up any trouble or anything like that. I happen to come from the province of Saskatchewan and I have seen the group of people who form the government there move into the development of resources with a socialistic attitude at the beginning. Then, because the experience they were obliged to face up to brought a difference of conditions from those that existed previously, they have changed their thinking around entirely. I should just like to point out that the premier of the province of Saskatchewan is on public record with a letter to all the oil and gas companies saying that his government would never think of expropriating or taking over the oil and gas companies if they come into Saskatchewan. The provincial treasurer, Mr. Clarence Fines, is also on public record as saying that he would not stay in a government which took any part in the development of natural resources and that this matter should be left to private enterprise.
The third subsection of this political answer which I hope does not stir up a political argument is that these people who are very sincerely interested in bringing in social enterprise in Saskatchewan are withdrawing from the crown corporations for the very simple reason that experience has taught them that it is very difficult to go into competitive business. I may say quite frankly that I appreciate their very practical nature in adapting themselves to conditions as they are and not as they hoped they would be. I hope that this answer has not precipitated an academic debate on this subject. I just wanted to make it clear that we were not using the taxpayers' money to open up a great resources area in order for a few people to exploit them. The profits will come to all the people of Canada. I think I made it abundantly clear in the house when I spoke that the people in the central parts of Canada will be the chief beneficiaries of this development program at the first stages.
Supply-Northern Affairs


Murdo William Martin: If I may, I should just like to say a word. I hope that the minister did not get the interpretation that I was advocating that the federal government should go in as a national industry and open up these resources. What I was advocating merely was that some provision be made or some control be kept in order to prevent the same thing happening here as has happened in the United States because apparently these measures that the minister outlined have applied in the United States and have not prevented it from happening there.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I think we are in agreement on that point. We will use the regulations as we have them and they are being amended. They are also amended in so far as gas and oil regulations are concerned. We are now starting work on the quartz mining regulations. All these resources will be looked at in the light that we are merely looking after the resources in the Northwest Territories as a public trust for the people who will live in that part of the country in the future.


Charles Ronald McKay Granger: I should like to ask the minister whether his department assumes the same responsibility for the Eskimos' welfare in the provinces as it does in the territories?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: I am informed that in Newfoundland the situation is a little bit different from that in the rest of Canada. I am informed that at the time of confederation with Newfoundland special arrangements were made with the new province whereby financial considerations were given in return for the province of Newfoundland looking after the Eskimos as well as the Indians. However, in the province of Quebec and to a limited degree in the province of Manitoba the federal government has responsibility for the Eskimos.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador would permit me to ask a question.


Charles Ronald McKay Granger: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I should like to ask the minister to give a little bit more consideration to the answer he has given and to give a more extended answer the next time his estimates are up for consideration.


Charles Ronald McKay Granger: If I may, I should like to follow that question with another question. I wonder whether the minister can tell me what proposals he has received from the province of Newfoundland with regard to particular roads to resources? I think that is a fair question.
3326	HOUSE OF
Business of the House


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: The policy
position that I took in the committee is one that I should like to keep here, namely that when an hon. member asks me about a particular road, I will give him the information if it has been approved and agreed upon between the two parties. But if it has not been agreed upon and it is still a matter of discussion between the two governments, I think it would be better not to say anything about it.


Charles Ronald McKay Granger: I should like to thank the minister for his answer. That is fair enough. As it is practically six o'clock, Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether I may call it that before I continue with my oration.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



John Whitney Pickersgill: I wonder whether the house leader would be good enough, for the convenience of hon. members, to indicate again the order of the business for Monday so that it will be in today's Hansard and whether, at the same time, he could give an assurance that none of the finance bills will be taken up until Tuesday.


Howard Charles Green: Yes, Mr. Speaker; I shall be glad to give that assurance. It is the intention to go on with the items standing in the name of the Minister of Finance on Tuesday.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Regardless of the progress made on Monday?


Howard Charles Green: Yes; I think so. On Monday we shall start with items Nos. 18 and 21 on today's order paper, both of which stand in the name of the Prime Minister, the first having to do with a simultaneous translation system and the second with the federal district commission. Then we shall take item No. 1 on today's paper, which has to do with the setting up of a lakehead harbour commission; then item No. 7, which is a minor Senate amendment to the Lake of the Woods Control Board Act, 1921, and stands in the name of the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources; then item No. 9, second reading of an act to amend the Indian Act, standing in the name of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; then three items in the name of the Minister of Justice, namely Nos. 8, 12 and 17, one being an amendment to the Penitentiary Act, the second an amendment to the Criminal Code and the third a resolution concerning the national parole board; then item No. 20, which is a resolution concerning the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, in the name of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to the order of the house passed on August 4.

[Stage Direction]
The following answer, deposited with the Clerk of the house, is printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Argue: 1.	Who are the members of (a) the Canadian wheat board; (b) the advisory council to the Canadian wheat board?
2.	When was each member appointed?
3.	With what grain companies is each member presently connected, and in what capacity?
4.	With what grain companies was each connected before his appointment, and in what capacity?
Answer by: Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister
of Trade and Commerce):
Member-Date of Appointment
1.	(a) William C. McNamara, September 15, 1945; William Riddel, August 1, 1950; W. Earle Robertson, November 1, 1953; John T. Dallas, P.C. 1958-981 of July 10, 1958, will assume duties effective September 1, 1958.
(b)	John H. Wesson, July 6, 1955; William
J.	Parker, July 6, 1955; John E. Brownlee, July 6, 1955; Gordon L. Harrold, June 5, 1958; Alfred P. Gleave, June 5, 1958; Arnold W. Platt, June 5, 1958.
2.	See answer to question No. 1 above.
3.	* J ohn T. Dallas, Continental Grain Company (Canada) Ltd., executive vice-president and director; John H. Wesson, Saskatchewan wheat pool, president; William J. Parker, Manitoba pool elevators, president; John E. Brownlee, United Grain Growers Limited, president and general manager; Gordon L. Harrold, Alberta wheat pool, president.
Not applicable to other members.
^Relinquishing responsibilities with Continental Grain Company (Canada) Ltd. before September 1, 1958.
4.	William C. McNamara, Saskatchewan wheat pool, coarse grains sales manager prior to joining the staff of the Canadian wheat board; William Riddel, Saskatchewan wheat pool, assistant general manager; W. Earle Robertson, Federal Grain Co. Limited, assistant general manager; John T. Dallas, Continental Grain Company (Canada) Ltd., executive vice-president and director; John H. Wesson, Saskatchewan wheat pool, president; William J. Parker, Manitoba pool elevators, president; John E. Brownlee, United Grain Growers Limited, president and general manager; Gordon L. Harrold, Alberta wheat pool, president.
Not applicable to other members.
Supply-Items Passed
[The following items were passed in Committee of Supply]:



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC PRINTING AND STATIONERY

[Stage Direction]
321.	Departmental administration, $612,876.
322.	Purchasing, stationery and stores, $1,193,937.
323.	Distribution of official documents, $394,663.
324.	Printing and binding official publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public, $620,000.
325.	Printing of Canada Gazette, $110,000.
326.	Printing and binding the annual statutes, $35,000.
327.	Plant equipment and replacements, $516,808.

[Stage Direction]
The Senate-
The Speaker of the Senate-
181.	Allowance in lieu of residence, $3,000.
182.	General administration, $686,535.
House of Commons-
The Speaker of the House of Commons-
183.	Allowance in lieu of residence, $3,000.
Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons-
184.	Allowance in lieu of apartments, $1,500.
185.	General administration-estimates of the Clerk, $1,873,265.
186.	Estimates of the Sergeant-at-Arms, $859,599.
187.	Subscriptions to publications of the commonwealth parliamentary association to be distributed to members of the House of Commons, and to provide for the Canadian share of expenses of the commonwealth parliamentary association, $10,000.
188.	Grant to the Canadian North Atlantic Treaty Organization Parliamentary Association, $10,000.
189.	To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Financial Administration Act or the provisions of the Senate and House of Commons Act respecting the independence of parliament, for the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund to each member of the House of Commons appointed by the governor in council to be a parliamentary assistant (which appointment shall not render such member ineligible or disqualify him as a member of the House of Commons) to assist a minister of the crown in such manner and to such extent as the minister may determine and to represent his department in the House of Commons in the absence of the minister therefrom, a salary of four thousand dollars per annum and pro rata for any period less than a year, $56,000.
190.	To provide for an allowance to the Deputy Chairman of Committees, $2,000.
Library of Parliament-
191.	General administration, $354,205.
Pensions and other Benefits-
192.	Pension to the unmarried sister of the late Colonel Harry Baker, M.P., $700.
House of Commons-
574. Grant to the Canadian North Atlantic Treaty Organization Parliamentary Association-further amount required, $4,000.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, August 11, 1958

[Stage Direction]
Tenth report of standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.-Mr. McCleave.