1958-01-31

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, January 31, 1958.
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, the 31st January, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
J. F. Delaute
Secretary to the Governor General (Administrative)



PROPOSED ALTERATIONS IN SOUND AMPLIFICATION SYSTEM

Mr. Speaker:: May I say that during the recess some improvements and alterations are expected to be made in the sound amplification system; and to determine whether the loudspeakers are better as they are now placed, with the sound coming from the front of the members, or whether they would be better reversed with the sound coming from behind hon. members, we have instituted an experiment in the farthest two rows. The loudspeakers have been turned around, and I hope hon. members sitting in those rows will co-operate in forming a conclusion as to whether or not the loudspeakers are better in that position than in the position they formerly occupied.


Mr.  M. W. Marlin@Timmins: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a word about the rearrangement of the loudspeakers on these desks. As the man who is farthest from you in this house I can say, on behalf of myself and my three colleagues here, that it is a vast improvement. For example, the Leader of the Opposition sounded much better this morning than he did on some previous occasions.



INCOME TAX


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance) moved: the second reading of and concurrence in an amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 170, to implement an agreement between Canada and Australia for the avoidance of double taxation with respect to income tax.
He said: The amendment is a very slight one. The bill, in clause 1, provided that the title should be as follows: "The Canada-Australia Income Tax Agreement Act, 1957". The agreement was signed in 1957. The bill was introduced in this house in 1957, but it received second and third reading in this house and was passed in the other place in 1958. Therefore the Senate has amended clause 1 to change 1957 to read 1958.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, if I may have unanimous consent I move, seconded by Mr. Churchill, that the amendment made by the Senate be now read a second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, amendment read the second time and concurred in.

Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minisier of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make this announcement. An inquiry into the distribution of box cars for the movement of grain in western Canada will be undertaken immediately. Hon. John Bracken has agreed to conduct this inquiry. The terms of reference will be announced in due course.


Mr. G. H. Casileden (Yorkton):: I should like to ask the minister a question. Will the inquiry include an investigation into the allocation of shipping permits by the wheat board as among the various grain companies?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Yes, that will be part of the inquiry.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. W. A. Tucker (Rosihern):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Has the appointment of Mr. HOUSE OF
Grain-Allocation of Box Cars Bracken to look into the box car situation been made by order in council and, if so, will the order in council be tabled and when is it expected that he will make his report?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The appointment of Hon. John Bracken to conduct this inquiry has been approved. The inquiry will start just as soon as possible. No date has been set at the moment for the report to be completed, and the appropriate order in council will be tabled in due course.


Walter Adam Tucker: I did not hear the answer. Has the order in council been passed, and is Mr. Bracken being given the power of a royal commission?


Gordon Minto Churchill: This will be indicated when the order in council is tabled.


Walter Adam Tucker: Has it been passed, Mr. Speaker? I asked if the order in council had been passed. The minister announced that the appointment had been made, and I wanted him to say if the order in council appointing this gentleman has been passed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I do not think I am obliged to inform the hon. member as to all the transactions of the cabinet.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I have given a proper answer to this question.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: May I ask the minister under what authority Mr. Bracken is to conduct his inquiry?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, that will appear when the order in council is tabled.


An hon. Member:: Contempt of parliament.


Mr. H. A. Bryson (Humboldl-Melfori):: Is
the minister able to say whether he has directed Hon. John Bracken to investigate the proposition of producers being given the opportunity of delivering grain to the elevator of their own choice?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I have announced, Mr. Speaker, that the terms of reference will be made public in due course, which means very shortly, and I can assure the hon. member that all matters which have been drawn to my attention to date by individual farmers and by farm organizations, including the question he has raised, will constitute part of the inquiry.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roseiown-Biggar):: Is
it not usual when an appointment of this description is made by order in council to have the terms of reference tabled and given to parliament? Is this not a most unusual


procedure, showing entire disregard for the regular parliamentary procedure?


Gordon Minto Churchill: I do not think there is any disregard for the rights of parliament whatsoever-


Major James William Coldwell: I am sure there is.


Gordon Minto Churchill: The rights of parliament are being recognized as they have always been by this party. I have indicated that an inquiry into this question will be conducted and that Hon. John Bracken has consented to conduct that inquiry. That is information which I am sure this house has been eagerly awaiting, and it will satisfy certainly those in western Canada who want this question investigated. The normal procedures of parliamentary practice have been followed and will be followed in the future.


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, they have not.


Walter Adam Tucker: A supplementary question-


Mr. Speaker:: I think the matter has been sufficiently dealt with. There have been five or six questions to which replies have been given.


Lester Bowles Pearson: But no information.


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Mr. Speaker:: It seems to me that any further questions tend to be argumentative and in the nature of debate rather than a search for information. The minister has indicated that he will table an order in council.


Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I do not think I need to turn up the citation because it is familiar to all of us, but it is a rule of this house that if an official document has been cited it must be laid on the table of the house. The Minister of Trade and Commerce has made reference to an order in council but has refused to give any further information about it. I think the least he should do is forthwith to table that order in council.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I submit that I have not cited any official document.


An hon. Member:: How was the appointment made, by telegram?


Mr. Speaker:: The minister in his reply indicated that he was announcing a policy that had been approved, and that he would table the order in council in due course.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Apparently it has not yet been passed.
[Later:}


Mr. W. M. Johnson (Kindersley):: I should like to address a question to the Minister of Transport arising out of the statement of the

Minister of Trade and Commerce respecting the appointment of Mr. Bracken to investigate the box car situation. Can the minister assure the house that the powers granted the Canadian wheat board to allocate box cars under the Transport Act, which act established the office of transport controller, will not be allowed to expire in May, which I understand is the expiry date with respect to that section of the act having to do with the transport controller?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the government has no intention of allowing those powers to expire.



DEDUCTIONS FROM CASH ADVANCES ON FARM-STORED GRAIN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce arising out of many complaints that the farmers who have obtained cash advances and who are now taking advantage of the special 400-bushels over delivery quota provided for the production of good seed are having half the proceeds deducted from the amount of cash advances they obtain. I wonder if the minister could say whether under the act action could be taken to prevent this practice, as I think he will agree with me that the 400-bushels extra delivery quota is necessary for the production of good seed.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I should like to thank the hon. member for raising this important question. I am consulting with the wheat board and examining the act to see if an answer can be provided that will meet his requirements.



REQUEST FOR INTERIM PAYMENT ON

[Stage Direction]
1956-57 crop
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. On Tuesday of this week he intimated that he hoped to be able to make an announcement soon in connection with an interim payment on the 1956-57 crop which would be as favourable as those announced by his predecessor on January 30 a year ago, amounting to 10 cents a bushel, and on February 2 two years ago. Is he now in a position to make an announcement as to the amount, and when the money will be available to the western farmers?


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, I think the government has amply demonstrated that its
Railway Grade Crossing Fund concern for the western farmer exceeds that of any other party in the house. I think the hon. member might accept my answer of the other day as being satisfactory under the circumstances.


Hazen Robert Argue: In view of the importance of this question, Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the minister could not tell the house and the country when an announcement will be made.


Gordon Minto Churchill: The importance of the question has been recognized by the government and we are quite as well aware as the hon. member of the importance of this matter to the western farmer. As we have demonstrated with two major bills this session, we are doing everything possible to assist the western farmer, and will do the same under these circumstances.



TRANSPORT


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement regarding an increase in the railway grade crossing fund. This fund, which is administered by the board of transport commissioners, is used to assist in creating grade separations at railway crossings on the basis of cost sharing arrangements with municipalities and the railways, which are determined by the board. The amount which in the past has been voted annually is $5 million.
The projects involved are widely spread across the country and involve substantial use of local labour. An increase in the fund will therefore be of considerable assistance in developing additional local projects to assist the employment situation. Moreover, the projects in themselves are highly desirable, since not only does a substantial backlog of grade crossings requiring improvements exist, but new projects such as the trans-Canada highway are creating new grade separation problems which involve heavy expenditure, particularly in mountainous areas.
It has therefore been decided that for the fiscal year 1958-1959 the amount voted to this fund will be increased from $5 million to $15 million. If this amount should not prove adequate to take care of the useful and necessary projects which may be possible of authorization by the board it will be increased even further.
The terms upon which funds may be provided from this fund are set by statute and place a limit upon the amount which may be voted for any one project, as well as a limit upon the percentage which may be provided

Newfoundland Ferry Service from the fund toward the cost of any one project. It may be that some modification in these arrangements will be desirable if we are to get the best use out of the increased funds available, and this matter is now under study by my officials. If further changes should be found desirable I will recommend that appropriate legislation be introduced accordingly at the next session of parliament.


Hon. George C. Marler (St. Anioine-Wesi-mouni):: Before the minister takes up another matter, may I ask him if he can inform the house of the approximate expenditure from the grade crossing fund in this current year?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, an amount of $2
million was added a short time ago making the amount available for this year $7 million. It is estimated that this sum will be required. [Later:]
On the orders of the day:


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Transport, arising out of the announcement he has just given concerning an increase in the grade crossing fund from $5 million to $15 million. Has consideration been given to the reapportionment of the cost of these projects as between the railways, the provinces and the municipalities so as to lighten the burden of the municipalities?


George Harris Hees: That whole matter is under consideration by my department at the present time.



PORTUGAL COVE-BELL ISLAND    ANNOUNCEMENT OF PROVISION OF NEW FERRY

George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I have also had under study for some time the matter of the ferry service between Portugal Cove and Bell island in Newfoundland, as the result of representations made to me by the hon. member for St. John's West and the hon. member for St. John's East.


Mr. Pickersgill:: And certain others.


George Harris Hees: I have come to the conclusion that there is a strong need for a new and modern ferry vessel to operate in this service for the transportation of passengers, motor cars and merchandise. Moreover, it would appear that provision of a new vessel of this sort, adequate for the needs of the service, is beyond the financial capabilities of the present operator of the ferry.
It has also been brought to my attention that considerable care needs to be taken in the design of a new vessel to ensure that it

can operate under the very difficult weather and ice conditions that may be experienced from time to time between the mainland and the island, and that the provision of a vessel suitable to cope with the rough weather and winter conditions would do a great deal to improve the regularity and efficiency of the service.
Accordingly I have obtained the authority of the federal government to proceed with the construction of a completely new ferry suitable for this operation. Special studies of the conditions involved will be made by my department, and we would propose to call for tenders for construction as soon as design plans and specifications for the vessel have been completed. It is my expectation, in this connection, that we should be able to call for tenders in the spring.
During the period of design and construction officials of my department and of the Canadian maritime commission will be giving further attention to the question of how the service could be best provided by this new vessel and what arrangements should be made with regard to its operation. Meanwhile, in view of the considerable interest of the provincial government of Newfoundland in this matter, I have informed them of the intention of the federal government to proceed along the foregoing lines and have asked for their full co-operation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the minister upon an excellent and progressive step.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: I
should like to ask the Minister of Transport if the responsibility for the maintenance and operation of the Portugal Cove-Bell island ferry service lies with the federal government under the terms of union. If not, under what constitutional or statutory authority does he make the announcement he made this morning?


George Harris Hees: In order that the hon. member may receive a correct answer, I shall take the question as notice.



FERRY &quot;WILLIAM CARSON&quot;


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the renewed interest he has shown this morning in the transportation problems of Newfoundland, may I ask him whether he will now take steps to arrange for the

Interest Rate on Treasury Bills
William Carson to carry automobiles and passengers on its run between North Sydney and Argentia?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, since we took office I have spent considerable time in discussions with officials of the Canadian National Railways and officials of my department trying to unwind the almost inextricable web that has been wound around the William Carson and its operations, and I hope one of these days to have straightened out the mess into which they got that unfortunate vessel.


John Whitney Pickersgill: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member a supplementary question?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes, a supplementary question. I should like to ask the Minister of Transport if he meant what he said when he announced in St. John's during his visit last summer that the William Carson would be going into Port aux Basques next June?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I made a definite statement of that kind.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Misquoted as usual.


George Harris Hees: No; if I was quoted that way I will take it, but I may say we are very hopeful that the William Carson will go into Port aux Basques this summer.



FINANCE


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make an announcement to the house. Yesterday the weekly offering of Dominion of Canada treasury bills was sold at the lowest rate at which treasury bills have been sold for the last 13i months. The rate on the bills is 3.25 per cent as compared with a rate for the previous week of 3.58 per cent, a reduction of one-third of one per cent in a week. Consequently the interest rate of the Bank of Canada has been reduced to 3.5 per cent, the lowest interest rate for the Bank of Canada since October 18, 1956, the date on which the Bank of Canada interest rate was first tied to the treasury bill rate. I am sure this will be a matter of gratification to all members of the house.


Hon. James Sinclair (Coast-Capilano):: May
I ask a question of the minister in this connection. Does this announcement indicate the
truth of the assertion of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce in a recent brief that the decline in the interest rate is caused by a lack of demand for money?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I think it indicates significantly something rather different. I think it not only indicates confidence, but it indicates also that we are moving steadily and significantly away from the tight money policies which manacled business.


Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo):: May I
address a supplementary question to the Minister of Finance. Can he inform the house if this change from a tight money position has been the result of some action by the government, and what the action has been?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been action on the part of the government. I do not say that the reduction is attributable entirely to the government's action, but it certainly is in line with government policy, and is in part attributable to it. The fact is that we have been seeking to bring about, with the means open to us, a reduction in this rate. I am not at liberty, and it has never been the practice, to indicate to the house all the government operations or the operations of the fiscal agent of the government in these matters, but I can assure my hon. friend that this reduction, which I am happy to report this morning, is fully in line with government policy.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, as this is the last day of the month and the deadline date set by the government for this session, as a courtesy to the house to which I think it is entitled would the Prime Minister indicate the plans for the rest of this session?


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the regard that my hon. friend now has for the rights of parliament.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Some hon. Members:: Cheap.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, please.


John George Diefenbaker: All I can say is that I just arrived in the house in time for the opening, and I have not had an opportunity of consulting with my colleagues in the

Inquiries of the Ministry cabinet. Having done so I hope to be in a position to give a general answer to the question asked.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the Prime Minister. Because of the proper and rightful concern of all the people of Canada in this matter, may I put this question to him. Is he or is he not planning to ask for an early dissolution of parliament?


John George Diefenbaker: That question, Mr. Speaker, will be answered in due course.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May
I ask the Prime Minister a supplementary question. In view of the many statements he has made in the house and to the press, which have stirred up speculation on this matter, does he think this cat and mouse game properly befits the office of the Prime Minister of Canada?


John George Diefenbaker: I do not intend to enter into any controversy with my hon. friend, who in the past and throughout this session has shown that he himself has the attribute which he applies to others.



REQUEST FOR ANSWER TO QUESTION ON ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Walter Adam Tucker: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I hope the trained seals are enjoying themselves, because that is all they are permitted to do.


An hon. Member:: You ought to know.


Walter Adam Tucker: I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if I may expect an answer to question No. 341 which, at his suggestion, I placed on the order paper nine days ago.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is yes.


Walter Adam Tucker: When may I expect it, Mr. Speaker?


Gordon Minto Churchill: The hon. member did not ask when in his earlier question, but as soon as possible.


Walter Adam Tucker: May I ask if I may expect it at this session of parliament?


Gordon Minto Churchill: We will endeavour to accommodate the hon. gentleman at this, his final session of parliament.


Walter Adam Tucker: The electors will decide that.


Mr. Speaker:: If hon. members are experiencing some difficulty with their desks I suggest they report the difficulty to the Sergeant-at-Arms.



NEW BRUNSWICK


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. W. Stuart (Charlotte):: I should like to address a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Is the minister aware of the closing of the McMann coal mine at Minto, New Brunswick, and also the 50 per cent cut in production by the Newcastle Coal Company, adding hundreds to the already overburdened unemployment list in this area? If so, has the minister any plans for the reopening of these mines?


Hon. Alvin Hamilton (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources):: I think the hon. member had better refer this question to the minister responsible for mines and technical surveys. However, I am certainly not aware of the truth of the statements which he has made.


Andrew Wesley Stuart: Then may I address the same question to the appropriate minister.


Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: I will take notice of the question, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. G. R. McWilliam (Northumberland-Miramichi):: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In view of the cut-backs in the orders of the New Brunswick coal mines, will the minister make representations to the New Brunswick Electric Power Commission with a view to having coal used in the Chatham, New Brunswick, plant instead of oil?


Paul Comtois: I do not know of any cutbacks in orders.


Andrew Wesley Stuart: May I ask a supplementary question. Since the circumstances are much similar, would the minister consider providing for this mining area the same financial assistance that has been recently provided for the Britannia mine in British Columbia?


Paul Comtois: I do not know, Mr. Speaker, that the circumstances here are exactly similar to those in respect of the Britannia mine. However, I will get a report on the whole matter.


Mr. A. J. MacEachen (Inverness-Rich-mond):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. I should like to ask the minister whether he would direct the dominion coal

board to investigate whether in fact the Beechwood project has reduced or curtailed orders for coal.


Mr. Comlois:: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to look into the matter and report as soon as I can.



ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. A. Cathers (York North):: I should line to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Are recent press reports indicating an intention to move headquarters of "O" division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, from Toronto to Markham correct? If so, can the minister say what number and type of buildings are planned for the new site and their estimated value?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for notice of this question. I am glad to be able to advise him that the reports are correct. It is hoped to make this move as soon as plans now under way to acquire suitable property can be carried out.
It is intended to carry out the construction program over a three-year or four-year period. During the first two years we plan to complete an administration building large enough to accommodate 250 to 300 office workers and a combined barracks and mess of sufficient size to take care of about 60 single men. The third year we hope to build a garage and put a gymnasium wing on the barracks building, after which we will commence construction of some 50 married quarters. This is an outline of present plans though it will be appreciated the timing for some of this construction may be altered to suit changing circumstances. A small establishment will be maintained in downtown Toronto to accommodate the public and serve as a base for investigators working in the centre of the city. I should add that "O" division covers that part of Ontario extending roughly from Belleville to Windsor and thence northward to Owen Sound.
As to the cost of the program, it is estimated that the total will be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $2,475,000. This is the estimated total to be expended over the three to four years, and is an estimate only, which may have to be adjusted as the plans become final.
Inquiries of the Ministry NATIONAL DEFENCE



ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY-REPORTED DECREASE IN RESERVE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Is it a fact that the Royal Canadian naval reserve has been reduced by 6 per cent, as announced by an officer of his department in Quebec yesterday, and will the minister comment on that statement?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, it will be recalled that on December 5 when I was presenting my estimates I advised the house that the role of the naval reserve will remain the reinforcement of the fleet in being in time of emergency. Reserve personnel will also replace regular personnel ashore, and will also be required to bring our ships up to war complement. At the present time our ships are maintained at 70 per cent of their war complement. The role of the naval reserve is to be ready to replace the personnel on our ships who are now employed on shore stations.
Realistic reappraisal followed by slight reorganization of the reserve has taken place which has resulted in the reduction by a limited number of officers and an increase in the number of men in the naval reserve. We found that the naval reserve was rather overstaffed in officers for its requirements.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a
supplementary question. Does not the minister think that announcement should have been made in the house during the consideration of his estimates rather than outside the house?


George Randolph Pearkes: Mr. Speaker, may I refer the hon. gentleman to the statement I made in the house on December 5, as recorded at page 1902 of Hansard:
This rationalization will result in some reduction in present strength, because we are placing emphasis on quality rather than quantity.


An hon. Member:: Wrong again.


Lionel Chevrier: That is not the statement of reduction made by his official.



TRI-SERVICE AGREEMENT ON PURCHASE OF EQUIPMENT FOR MOBILE INSTALLATIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. J. Broome (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence whether the so-called triservice agreement instituted by the former minister of national defence, which required
4092	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry that all equipment for mobile installations be purchased on the North American continent, is still in effect?


George Randolph Pearkes: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of this question. I am informed that there is no such agreement or regulation as that to which the hon. member refers. That information is borne out by the fact that a great deal of equipment has been purchased from the United Kingdom. I might mention such things as Centurion tanks, Ferret reconnaissance cars, Triumph motorcycles, etc. It is obvious, however, that in the procurement of any equipment for the Department of National Defence steps must be taken to ensure adequate replacements and resupply. This policy with regard to the purchase of equipment is conveyed to the Department of Defence Production, which is the responsible department for the procurement of all equipment.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. H. S. Thompson (Edmonlon-Siralh-cona):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture, notice of which was given yesterday. Would the minister give the house an example of the manner in which the Agricultural Stabilization Act will be applied by stating the prescribed price at which it will be necessary to support grade A large, grade A medium, and grade A small eggs in order to meet the basic guarantees assured by the act?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, this question appears to be an attempt to anticipate the method the advisory committee and the stabilization board may recommend to be put into effect so far as supporting eggs is concerned, and it also appears to me to be designed to tie the hands of the committee and of the board by attempting to get me to make a commitment in the house as to what method will be employed and what the price will be.


Sydney Herbert Stewart Thompson: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister not agree that eggs are a named commodity to which the government has given a definite guarantee, and which the government should be prepared to live up to by having the minister give the house now the information I requested.


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, Mr. Speaker. The
method which may be adopted to support 

the price of eggs could be the method which has been followed in the past, that of purchase, or that of deficiency payments or some other method. This question is an attempt to anticipate what method may be used and the way in which that method may be put into effect. I think it would be quite improper for me to attempt to tie the hands of the committee and the board by attempting to make a statement in regard to the matter.



SASKATCHEWAN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Louis Lewry (Moose Jaw-Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, 1 should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the announcement yesterday by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources that the government is extending financial aid to a maximum of $3J million to the province of New Brunswick to assist in the control of the spruce budworm infestation there, and in view of the expected substantial increase in grasshopper infestation in Saskatchewan in 1958, can the Minister of Agriculture say whether similar assistance will be extended to Saskatchewan for grasshopper control?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps I should point out to the hon. member that budworm assistance has been extended for several years in order to reach the amount indicated in his question. For many years the dominion Department of Agriculture has conducted surveys for the purpose of forecasting the extent and severity of grasshopper outbreaks in addition to maintaining a varied and extensive program of research work on grasshoppers and many other insect pests.
The provinces have used the information so obtained as a basis for control programs which have been organized, administered and paid for by provincial and municipal authorities. Forecasts of grasshopper infestations in the prairie provinces for the year 1958 do not indicate that any departure from the existing policy is necessary or desirable.



INQUIRY AS TO IMPLEMENTATION OF STABILIZATION MEASURE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. B. Huffman (Kent, Onl.):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Since Bill No. 237 will no doubt receive royal assent later this day, how soon might the producers expect that base prices will be established for crops listed as named commodities in the bill?


Douglas Scott Harkness: As I indicated previously in the house, I am not in a position to say how long it will take to get the advisory committee selected and into operation and the necessary statistical information compiled. I just do not know.



POSTAL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Lomer Brisson (Saguenay):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Postmaster General. Since the ferry service between Tadoussac and Ste. Catherine has been stopped for a few days due to the ice, thus paralysing the mail service and drastically affecting the economic position of my constituency, would the Postmaster General advise us of the steps that have been taken or are going to be taken to put an end to this alarming situation?


Hon. W. M. Hamilton (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, the situation arose through unusually strong and continuously prevailing east winds, which are a type of wind outside the control of this house and which caused a very heavy accumulation of ice. Service to certain points on the lower St. Lawrence river has been temporarily delayed since January 26.
Immediately upon receipt of this advice by the Post Office Department the Department of Transport was requested and agreed to dispatch an icebreaker to deal with the situation. The Clarke Steamship Company put on a somewhat larger vessel that it was thought might be able to break through the ice, and the highway mail service which handles the mail once it is taken off the boat was instructed to hold all its vehicles and additional vehicles if necessary in instant readiness to dispatch the mail once it was landed.
Unfortunately the ice conditions continued and the icebreaker was not able to break through, but yesterday we were advised that the motor vessel North Gaspe was able to resume service between Tadoussac and Baie Ste. Catherine. No mails from Baie Ste. Catherine were loaded because the captain was not sure that he could make the return trip to Tadoussac. We explored the possibility of putting in a helicopter service but there were no such aircraft immediately available in that vicinity.
I think, Mr. Speaker, this covers the same information which was given to the hon. member yesterday at five o'clock.
96698-259J
Inquiries of the Ministry BROADCASTING



DRUMHELLER, ALBERTA    STATEMENT AS TO APPLICATION OF RADIO STATION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Bow River inquired of the Minister of National Revenue whether or not an application from the Dinosaur radio station at Drumheller had been received.
The Dinosaur Broadcasting Company, Limited, submitted an application last autumn for authority to establish a new broadcasting station at Drumheller. This application, after appropriate technical examination, was transmitted to the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which after consideration at its meeting in December last recommended to me deferral of consideration of this application in order to allow the applicant time to provide more definite plans regarding the operation of the proposed station. I have accepted this recommendation and the applicant was, some time ago, notified accordingly.



CHAPLEAU RIDING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. N. Barbes (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. In view of the request made in the house on November 19, 1957, for adequate radio services for the eastern part of Chapleau riding, including the two radar stations at Parent and Senne-terre, has the government provided special financial assistance to the C.B.C. for this urgent matter?


Hon. G. C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, the government
has not provided special financial assistance for this urgent matter. As hon. members know, when this government took office the situation was that the moneys provided in the estimates by the preceding government for the C.B.C. would have been entirely expended by the middle of October and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation would have had to close down if no further moneys had been provided. Accordingly we placed in the supplementary estimates an amount equivalent to the amount which had been provided for the preceding six months so the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation could function normally until the end of the fiscal year. Capital expenditures such as those envisaged by this question will have to



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
Inquiries of the Ministry be provided through additional grants to be made by parliament at the next session of parliament.
Charles-Noël Barbès: When can we expect action on such financial assistance in favour of the C.B.C.?


George Clyde Nowlan: When the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation decides that such action is necessary and when parliament approves the recommendation of the corporation.



ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY CORNWALL    STATEMENT AS TO OPENING OF BUILDING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Stormont asked if I could advise the house as to the approximate date of the opening of the seaway building at Cornwall. I have checked with the seaway authority and find that it has not yet been possible to fix an opening date as the building is not yet completed, although occupancy will start in part shortly.


Mr. A. P. Lavigne (Stormont):: I asked the Minister of Transport a question regarding the opening of the seaway building in Cornwall. I understand that he gave the answer this morning at a time when I was called out of the house, so I wonder if he would be kind enough to repeat his answer.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member will find his information in Hansard.



PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. C. McGee (York-Scarborough):: May
I direct a question to the Secretary of State or, in her absence, to the leader of the house. I should like the Secretary of State to draw to the attention of the chief electoral officer the report which appeared in the Toronto Star on Wednesday last to the effect that Mr. C. D. Howe is collecting campaign funds for the Liberal party in the United States.


An hon. Member:: That is the last straw.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the hon. member suggest that this is a matter which is under the control of the Secretary of State? It seems that his question raises matters which are not the responsibility of this government.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. J. A. Byrne (Kootenay East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the minister has available the latest figures on the present serious unemployment situation.


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The latest figures on the unemployment situation in Canada are as issued by the dominion bureau of statistics as of December 14, namely 386,000.


Mr. W. M. Benidickson (Kenora-Rainy River):: Would the minister give the house the latest figures from the national employment service?


Michael Starr: Those are not the official figures of unemployment in Canada, as was set out in the policy of the former government.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: That does not answer the question.


William Moore Benidickson: I must protest. I think these are weekly statements, and we have not had these statements for several weeks.


Mr. Speaker:: May I ask whether those figures are not available to all hon. members?


Some hon. Members:: Certainly they are.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: A supplementary question. May I ask the minister whether he has some figures which he has not given to the house with respect to unemployment?


Michael Starr: If the hon. member wishes to have any particular figure concerning registrations for unemployment benefit and he asks me, I will be glad to get it for him in a few days.


An hon. Member:: After parliament is prorogued.


Lester Bowles Pearson: In what sense was the minister using the word "unemployment" when he said in March, 1955, that unemployment had reached the figure of 600,000 and that this was an alarming figure?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think that is the last question in the world the Leader of the Opposition should be asking on the orders of the day. That is not a question for the orders of the day.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sorry, but was the last question directed to the Minister of Labour or to the Prime Minister?


Lester Bowles Pearson: It was directed to the Minister of Labour and avoided by the Prime Minister.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I take it the Prime Minister rose on a point of order, then?


John George Diefenbaker: That is so. That type of question might be asked by a backbencher, but I would not expect it from a frontbencher.


James Sinclair: What is wrong with backbenchers?


Mr. Speaker:: If hon. members would allow me to have the floor for a minute, the point of order which was raised does not, I think, displace the question. If the hon. gentleman wishes to have an answer I will allow it to stand.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I asked this question, and I suppose I have the same rights as a backbencher with regard to asking a question though I am grateful to the Prime Minister for advising me how to conduct myself in the house, because the Minister of Labour placed an interpretation on this word "unemployment" which appeared to us to be out of line with the way in which he used it himself at that time.


Mr. Speaker:: It seems to me that a question has been asked and that it does ask for an opinion. If the Minister of Labour wishes to answer he may do so.


Edmund Davie Fulton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I understand that questions on orders of the day are supposed to relate to matters that are current and urgent, and I ask you whether a statement made in 1955 comes within that category.


Mr. Speaker:: I should like to know before dealing further with this matter whether the Leader of the Opposition is proposing to ask this question again or whether he wishes to let the matter drop.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I think the
meaning of the word "unemployment" is both current and urgent, and I ask the Minister of Labour whether the meaning he attached to it at that time is the same as the meaning he attaches to it now.


Some hon. Members:: Answer. Give him the green light.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I am following the policy which was set out by the former government with regard to this matter, when they refused to give any figures of registrations and only accepted the figures released by the dominion bureau of statistics regarding unemployment.
Inquiries of the Ministry


Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins):: May I ask a
supplementary question of the Minister of Labour. It arises out of his reply to the question concerning statistics on unemployment. I should like to ask the minister if he deems it advisable, at this late stage, to adopt the procedures of the previous government?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I do not believe that is a question seeking an answer, but rather one which makes an assertion. I rule it out of order.



SUGGESTED PROVISION OF FEDERAL FUNDS TO MUNICIPAL PARKS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Haidasz (Trinity):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources a question with regard to Premier Frost's statement to representatives of the Toronto city council seeking financial aid to ease the grave unemployment situation in Toronto, to the effect that he could not see why federal funds should not be made available for municipal parks in the same way as for provincial parks.
Would the minister venture to state whether he would introduce effective legislation before the close of this session to fulfil Premier Frost's desire?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Speaker, I think in the first place I should like to see the article or report in question. In the second place I would remind the hon. member that I have difficulty enough being responsible for my own department without extending those responsibilities to the province of Ontario.


Stanley Haidasz: Now that the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources has had ample time to read and reread the press report concerning Premier Frost's desire for federal aid-


An hon. Member:: You got your answer to that.


Stanley Haidasz: -will the minister now make a statement or comment on that report?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think it was yesterday that questions about dominion-provincial fiscal arrangements were raised in the house. The house has just dealt with that matter and it seems to me to be inappropriate to endeavour to reopen it, particularly at question time.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Haidasz: In view of the experience of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Labour and the grave unemployment situation in Toronto-


Some hon. Members:: Order; sit down.


Stanley Haidasz: -does he not consider that the question should be answered?


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member is dissatisfied with my ruling I shall be glad to hear him on that point, but I shall not hear his question.


Stanley Haidasz: In view of the grave unemployment situation in Toronto-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The question the hon. member asked had to do with dominion-provincial fiscal arrangements. If he wants to ask a question about unemployment now, that is another matter and I will be interested in hearing what his question is.


Stanley Haidasz: In view of the unemployment situation in Toronto and the experience of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Labour when he made an appearance before the trade union conference two days ago-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Stanley Haidasz: -is the parliamentary assistant not of the opinion that federal aid for unemployment-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the hon. member is simply trying to avoid the ruling I made, and I would ask him not to proceed with the matter.



CHARLOTTE COUNTY, N.B.-INQUIRY AS TO PUBLIC WORKS PLANNED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day;
Andrew Wesley Stuart: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Has the minister received correspondence from the Charlotte county unemployment committee pointing out the serious unemployment problem in that county? If so, has the minister any plans to implement the recommendations they have made which would provide greatly needed employment?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister of Public Works):: I shall be glad to look into this situation.



CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. C. Christian (Okanagan Boundary):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Can the Prime

Minister indicate to the house when the report of the royal commission investigating the diesel dispute will be brought down?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I will look into the matter and have immediate attention given to it so the report can be tabled without delay if it is available.



BEAUCE, QUE.-INQUIRY AS TO FEDERAL ASSISTANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Raoul Poulin (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Prime Minister, notice of which I sent to his office the day before yesterday. Could the Prime Minister inform me and the house if the Quebec provincial government has presented to the federal government a request for a contribution in order to pay (a) assistance to the flood victims of December 20 last in the county of Beauce and (b) for works to be executed in order to prevent a recurrence of such disasters in the future?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, my information is that there has been no such request.



QU'APPELLE VALLEY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis Harrington Lewry: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister say whether he has received a petition signed by some 28 residents of the Qu'Appelle valley in Saskatchewan asking for compensation for damage caused by the flooding of the Qu'Appelle river in 1955 and 1956, whether consideration has been given to such petition and, if so, what compensation might be expected?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I shall look into that question to ascertain whether or not a petition has been received, and I will then be in a position to answer.



CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport. In view of the concern of Canadian Pacific employees who operate the branch line passenger trains

running west from Winnipeg, north and south of the main line, and in view of the concern of the communities affected as a result of reports that these branch line services may be further curtailed or discontinued, will the minister take this matter up with the Canadian Pacific Railway, and if necessary with the board of transport commissioners, in the hope that these passenger services will be continued.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member knows very well that this government has no control whatever over the operations of the Canadian Pacific. Whether they continue or do not continue branch line operations is their business.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask a supplementary question. In view of the fact that the minister found it possible to write to the president of the Canadian Pacific a few days ago on another matter, does he not think it equally appropriate to communicate with the Canadian Pacific management on this matter?


Mr. Speaker:: Order. That question by the hon. member is really an argument-


Stanley Howard Knowles: And a very good one, too.


Mr. Speaker:: It may be a good argument but this is not the place for argument, and I rule it out of order.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Courtemanche in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION Indian affairs branch-
72. Administration, $512,218.


Mr. Bryce:: Last night at ten o'clock, Mr. Chairman, I had just started to tell hon. members that I had received a brief from the Manitoba Indian brotherhood, the northern section, and I was quoting from that brief to bring before the minister and his officers the complaints these Indians had against what was happening in the north country. I had commenced to read from the brief, and had read the first two paragraphs. I want to quote a few remarks from the people who live on the Pukatawagan reserve. They have this to say:
Pukatawagan Reserve
Last summer conference with Laval Fortier and Colonel Jones we were promised that our reserve would be surveyed, also the forest limits which we asked for; none of this was done as yet. Many of our people need homes and if a timber limit was given us our men would get out saw logs and manufacture their building material. As the
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration reserve in which we live is all rock we wish to ask that Brant lake be given to our band as a fishing reserve where we could fish in open seasons commercially and in all seasons of the year for domestic purposes. This place is also suitable for growing vegetables, which we need badly in our reserve.
We were also promised to have an Indian constable in our reserve which we did not get as yet; when we do get the instructions to appoint one we wish that you grant a $40 per month salary to the constable as this is a whole year job and a big responsibility.
I now want to quote the recommendations from the Shoal river reserve. The brief states: Shoal River Reserve
The brief was presented to you last February and another brief to Hon. Laval Fortier and Colonel Jones last summer and none of the briefs were acted on as yet.
The population of the Shoal river reserve is increasing and is requesting again that our reserve be extended. There is a space unoccupied between our two reserves and this is the space we are looking forward to as a grant from the federal government; this will serve well to the band as it is a very good place for fuel wood as our timber is all cleaned up in our present reserve.
We also requested for an extended highway into our reserve and bridges as well, that it may serve the band conveying their produce and emergency cases.
We repeatedly asked for a tractor, plow, disc and seed drill from the department of Indian affairs and none of this was granted us as yet; if granted the members of our reserve would grow their own grain and vegetables.
Our fishing area is very poor and I wish you could contact with the Manitoba game and fisheries branch to grant us fishing grounds at Cedar lake where we could fish commercially in the winter
season.
The superintendent at Dauphin, Manitoba got us to cut wood, which we have done so, and no pay is forthcoming. We wish you could look into this matter and clear off our differences.
Ammunition and nets were not given us as yet. We also request that these articles be given us now instead of them laying in the warehouse at Dauphin.
Loans are also denied us by the superintendent, all of which we are in need, as we cannot go ahead with purchasing power to fish or farm.
The wish of the band is very important. We are requesting that our band be transferred to the supervision of The Pas agency instead of the one at Dauphin as The Pas is more nearer and suitable for us.
Councillor Noah Stevens is adopting a child and is paying taxes, also delivers U cords of wood to defray the expense of this child that is attending school outside of the reserve, which we are certain is a miscarriage of justice to a treaty Indian.
The constable of our reserve should be paid a salary as he is doing an important and dangerous job and it is an all year responsibility.
There was no help given to Alice Moore when she had her home built; instead she was compelled to pay all her expenses. The chief and councillors feel that Mrs. Moore should get restitution for what she has spent building her home from the department of Indian affairs, and of which we feel sure you will grant her the request.
We also wish to have our sawmill repaired as it is out of order and cannot operate our mill; therefore no building material is manufactured.
Before I go on any further may I say this.
I am sure everybody in this country expects

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration that education up to grade 8 is free. This man is hauling wood in order to defray the expense in connection with his child going to school. I should like the minister to look into this matter. I should like him to look into all these things that are mentioned, but that is one that is a glaring injustice. I now come to the Cross lake reserve and their recommendations:
Cross Lake
Fur bearing animals are getting scarce and we do not know what steps could be taken to better the living conditions in our reserve; we see no other alternative but call for your help to find other employment for the Indians of Cross lake, as we have no other means to meet the requirements for my people outside of trapping.
This is the reason why I am asking the department of Indian education to increase the grants for elementary education, to provide high schools and trade courses for advanced students, as common labour is about a thing of the past due to the rapid growth of population and modern equipment now in operation at all projects approached for employment; therefore we request that qualified teachers be given us to teach our children.
Material for bridges and homes are our biggest shortage in our reserve; if our sawmill was repaired and a new tractor given us, our men would get out logs and manufacture all the material needed for bridges, building material and fish box lumber. We beg that you give our band a new tractor for the purpose mentioned above ...
We are requesting that wood now delivered to the schools by my band members be paid $5 per cord instead of the present rate of $3 now paid to them, for no one could live on $3 per cord in my reserve due to the high cost of living.. .
The wardens are doing their best to abrogate our treaty rights; they are now trying to impose a fee on the' treaty Indians on big game such as moose and reindeer, etc. Our treaty rights state that we could take and kill big game at all times for our domestic use. We do not want anyone to take away from us our God given rights.
The Indians are also fishermen whenever the opportunity is given him to do so; for this purpose we request that it be promoted to co-operatives to market fish, furs and other products that is produced by the Indians of Cross lake.
As stated before we are in need of a good timber berth and we are looking forward to you to give this your serious consideration.
We need more homes for our old folks (the aged). Their homes need repair material, also money to buy wood for them as the present $40 per month given them is inadequate due to the high cost of living.
Norway House. A year ago you made a good speech.
I do not know to whom this refers, but speaking for myself I would say the reference is to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate:
You said that the Indian some day would become a teacher, a clergyman, a lawyer, mayor or even become the Prime Minister of Canada, and that you hoped to live to see that day, and that you promised to fulfil our requests at that interview. . .
... At our band meeting we planned to ask from your department a tractor and other equipment needed to till the soil. We are in need of

potatoes and other vegetables and if the request is granted we could go ahead with our proposed project.
We regret to inform you that Mr. Staunton, our local superintendent, does not give us any consideration whenever we approach him for assistance. He denies us at every request we make and is not dealing with us properly. Mr. Sherwood is far worse. We want this man removed from his office and give us an honest and faithful man to deal with us.
We are in need of better homes. If your department will give us the material I am sure if you give us the consideration, this also goes for our aged persons in our reserve; the present $40 per month given them is inadequate to buy fuel and other necessities and we urgently request that fuel wood be supplied to them for they are in need of all this wood and their burden would be greatly relieved.
Our road needs repair and constructed properly. Conveyance is poor due to bad roads and I wish you could look into this matter. There are some families that should get relief due to unemployment and poor trapping season. We plead to you for relief for these poor people.
The nearest to our railway would be south of Wabowden and if a road was to be surveyed we would be only too ready to co-operate and in this way our men would get some employment and a straight road constructed for general purposes.
The game wardens are trying to make treaty Indians pay for fees on moose, etc. Our treaty states that Indians could take and kill big game for their domestic use, and we strictly oppose paying fees.
We request that wives under pensioners' aid, married to old age pensioners, and men likewise, get rations for they cannot earn a living; if other bands in Manitoba are giving rations to persons mentioned above, we wish that our band members be treated alike.
Hospitalization-we have a hard time getting our sick to hospitals and we are requesting that some vehicle be given us for conveying our sick to the hospitals in the winter season and a boat for the summer season.
There is no other employment near my reserve after the summer fishing season is over and I wish you could arrange with the Manitoba game and fisheries branch members to have Montreal point, lake Winnipeg, as a fishing reserve, where they could fish commercially in the fall season. In this way the Indians of my band would have some employment.
Split Lake reserve. The school children of the reserve have a long ways to walk to school. The smallest ones have a hard time to reach the school due to cold weather. Some freeze their feet and faces and for this purpose some line of conveyance to school is requested to avoid further suffering to our children attending school. If not, a residential school should be built in my reserve.
Hospitalization-some of my people were denied admittance to the hospital and sent home to suffer; just lately one of my members was denied admittance and medical care and sent home. A day after, this person passed away. For this most important matter I am requesting a hospital in my reserve where the sick of my reserve could be taken care of. There is very little assistance given to my people in regards to rations and fuel wood, especially to the aged and indigent. A special request is urgent to help those that cannot help themselves.
Homes are very poor in my reserve and those that need them cannot afford to get the building material, and it is for them I am calling for help, that you can give according to your kind consideration.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
The merchant whom we deal with is overcharging us for merchandise and paying poor prices for fur and due to the scarcity of fur-bearing animals, my people will soon face starvation if no help is forthcoming because there is no employment nearby. We wish you could arrange that a store be established on my reserve managed by the department of Indian affairs.
Cedar Lake reserve. During the winter fishing season the Indians of this band are over-crowded by white fishermen and cannot get enough fish to cover their accounts with the fish company they are dealing with. They request that special fishing grounds be granted to them in Cedar lake where they alone can fish commercially.
Trapping areas should be enlarged and big game should be open for the use of this band; also waterfowl for them as there is no other way to earn a living in this area.
They have a sawmill and cannot make use of it because a white man is operating the outfit for his own use. They are requesting that this outfit be returned to them, and that they make use of it by manufacturing their own lumber . ..
The delegation is urgently requesting that when a man is in the hospital or is hurt by an accident and laid up from such injuries or sickness that his family be looked after by the department of Indian affairs while recuperating or convalescence at home or in the hospital. We beg that you give all this and other requests your serious consideration and action thereon.
This is signed by Chief Cornelius Bignell, The Pas, Manitoba, and by the secretary, A. E. Thompson, Peguis reserve, Dallas, Manitoba.
I have read the report of the director of Indian affairs, and in it he has spoken of employment conditions during the year in Manitoba, where more than 1,000 Indians were gainfully employed, mostly on seasonal work. Indians found work on railway maintenance, pulpwood operations, defence projects, pipe-line construction, mining and other developments in the north, and took part in sugar beet industries in the south. The report also mentions pulpwood operations which were carried out to provide work and wages in different districts of northern Manitoba, and it is hoped that there will be a big development at Grand Rapids which will employ many more Indians.
I would like to ask the minister what have been the results of the department's endeavours to provide work and wages for Indians near Berens river, where there has been a big project. I would like him to tell me how many cords of pulpwood were cut in 1956, and how many in 1957; also, of the amount of pulpwood cut, how many cords were hauled out of the bush? I would also like to know how much the government paid the Indians for cutting pulpwood and what was the haulage cost when this pulp was taken to Manigotagan and then shipped to Pine Falls. What was the cost per cord from the stump to the pulp mill? I would also like to know if the pulp mill paid any of the
transportation costs, or if the entire cost of the operation was paid for by the department.
There were two barges sunk. Were they a complete loss or were they salvaged afterwards? If they were lost, were they insured?
I would like to know, too, if all this work was let by tender.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Could I ask the hon. member what work he refers to in his last question? He asked if the work was let by tender; does he mean the cutting of the cordwood or the repair to the barges or something else?


William Scottie Bryce: I was interested in the cost of transportation.


Edmund Davie Fulton: You wish to know if the haulage work was let by tender?


William Scottie Bryce: Yes, and was the work that had to be done let by tender or just done through an agreement?
With reference to education I might point out that I first visited Norway House 15 years ago. There has been a great deal of improvement in that time but what is required there now is a high school where higher education will be available than can be had in the school they have at present. I am sure the people there will be agreeable to having the Indian affairs branch make arrangements with the provincial government. Actually one school could serve both purposes through the construction of an addition or some similar arrangement.
Many Indians there are not treaty Indians, and they require higher education. If they return to Winnipeg they find they cannot get a job tying parcels unless they have grade XI or grade XII education. It would be cheaper for them to get higher education at Norway House than it would if they had to go to Snake Island or Matheson Island, approximately 300 miles from home. I urge the minister to investigate the situation to see if higher educational facilities could be arranged at Norway House. I believe it could be done for relatively little cost.
I wish now to speak about the disgraceful condition of the roads. A highly graded road is not needed, because the roads are used in only two seasons of the year. When the river is open boats are used, and when it is frozen the people ski or skate on the ice. In the inbetween times conditions are bad and the children get their feet wet. I got my feet wet, too, although I was there in the summer. The improvements would not have to be elaborate or expensive, and even if a few logs were placed over the road it would protect the children.
When I raised this question previously and appealed to the former minister of justice, my good friend Mr. Garson, he said the problem was that of securing labourers to do the work.
4100	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration The present Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration is also Minister of Justice. He has access to the jails in this country that are full of prisoners, many of whom have been guilty of minor petty offences. Could these men not be put to work constructing these roads for the school children? There may be difficulty involved in having 10 or 12 prisoners put to work in this way, but the idea appeals to me as being reasonable.
I have in my hand a clipping from the Winnipeg Free Press of January 27, 1958, which says there are now more Indians living in Winnipeg than on any single reservation in Manitoba. The clipping is a report of a conference on Indians and metis recently held in Winnipeg. The question of education was stressed at this convention, and the delegates passed the five following resolutions aimed at improving education of Indians and metis:
1.	Provision of provincial government scholarships to worthy students.
2.	Institution of short, factual training courses.
3.	Factual courses at local schools on urban life and its requirements.
4.	Training for all students in differing cultures.
5.	Provision of technical courses for Indians and metis.
The concluding paragraph of the article is most interesting. It reads:
Discussion on resolutions was stimulated by a delegate who claimed the only lucky Indians were those who had had T.B. He claimed that when cured, the rehabilitation program prepared them for city life.
I draw the attention of hon. members to this fact. Perhaps the minister or his officials have already read this article.
Mr. Chairman, I have only five minutes in which to bring this message to the minister's attention. The Indian committee, which sat for three years, made a number of recommendations, one of which was that we should set up a claims commission. In the correspondence which I have read to the minister today, and about which I have spoken, it is clearly shown that the Indians have one idea and the department has another. The Indian still thinks he is only asking for the God-given rights that were enjoyed by his forefathers, and about which he has been told.
One will say he wants a mower or a wagon. The thing is not possible any more. What he needs, if he wants to be a farmer, is a tractor and the necessary machinery. I do not know how many of the recommendations of that committee were ever put into operation, but here is one that should be put into practice now. Bring the Indians in and let them understand that these things will never come back and let us reach some common agreement with them, because as long as one man thinks one thing and another thinks another, we will never get anywhere.


I hope the department will give consideration to the matters I have brought to the minister's attention. In closing I should like to pay tribute to the ministers and priests and those associated with them in the work among the Indians in the north country. I should also include the doctors and the nurses. I have made ten trips into this region and know full well the trials and tribulations these people experience in their endeavour to bring health and education to the people they look after.


The Chairman:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I must advise him that he has spoken for 30 minutes.


Mr. Hahn:: Mr. Chairman, I was very
interested in the remarks made by the hon. member for Selkirk with regard to item No. 72 of the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. The hon. gentleman raised one or two questions which give me some concern in my own riding where there are several Indian bands in the region. The remarks he made with regard to hospitalization are highly applicable in my own riding as well, and I shall not devote any time to discussing that subject.
However, in discussing the first item yesterday two questions were raised which also are of concern to me, and before dealing with the main topic I wish to speak about I propose to deal with these questions. I am thinking now of the question of Indian leases, especially for tracts of land that are adjacent to the larger cities. In my area one band gave a 20-year lease to a group of contractors who are building summer huts that are not in keeping with the standard of the homes that others in the community have built.
The result is that some difficulty has been created, and the municipal authorities are unhappy about the present state of affairs. They inquire what could be done to bring these temporary homes on the Indian lands more in keeping with the homes built in the summer resort area, homes which have been built to last for a long period of time. Some very fine homes have been constructed, but those on the Indian property are, of course, by no means up to this standard and the situation is causing some concern to the municipal authorities.
Another question I wish to raise has to do with the amount paid by the department to local school boards for educating Indians in their areas. I understand the minister will be dealing with this question later. In particular I am interested in knowing how much the provincial government of British Columbia is to receive in compensation for the sums it expends to help keep these schools

in operation. I understand that my province carries more than its share of the task of supporting these local operations, and I am interested in learning what share the province can expect from the Indian affairs branch toward defraying the cost of educating the Indian children of the community.
My main purpose in rising at this time is to draw the minister's attention to a difficulty which has been created as a direct result of the action of his colleague the Minister of Fisheries in preventing fishing between Pattullo bridge, or New Westminster bridge, and Mission bridge. For centuries the Indians have fished these waters for commercial purposes, but three or four years ago the Minister of Fisheries saw fit to change the regulations so as to make it illegal for any commercial fishing to be done in the area I have mentioned.
This has caused the Langley band, in particular, a great deal of difficulty. I realize there are not many Indians in the band, but those who are in it use gill net boats and find themselves being forced out to sea if they wish to do any commercial fishing to get the money necessary for their livelihood. The difficulty is not that they are prevented from catching enough fish for domestic purposes; they are permitted to do that. But they require cash, as does every other individual, in order to carry on, and they are very concerned about the fact that during the season when they would normally be fishing on a commercial basis in their own area they are not permitted to do so.
The question of reopening this area to commercial fishing is being considered at the present time by the Department of Fisheries, but I understand the Indian affairs branch has not been consulted in this matter. I suggest to the minister and to his departmental officials that they should make some inquiries with regard to the difficulties which the Langley Indians are experiencing in order to discover what effect, if any, it would have on the livelihood of these people if the river were reopened to this band. I urge the minister to make representations to his colleague if, after discussion with the Indians, he finds that such a move would be of value to them. The privilege of fishing these waters has been denied to them only in recent times, and their views with regard to the reopening of these waters for commercial fishing should be taken into consideration.
I do not think their request is unreasonable. They ask only that they should be permitted to fish at the same time as the seiners are catching fish out in the bay. They feel they should have the right to take some of the
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration fish without being obliged to go out to sea, a way of fishing which would require much better and more seaworthy vessels than this band possesses, and which would involve them in an expense too great for them to meet.
The officials of the Department of Fisheries suggest that this is a question of conservation. I have discussed this matter with the Indians and they have assured me that at no time have they ever interfered with the requirements of the international sockeye salmon commission which has been in charge of conservation arrangements. They gave the commission no difficulty, neither did the commission cause the Indians any difficulty. The Indians are law-abiding and they respect the need to preserve the fishery, knowing this is necessary if they are to enjoy it in future years. They are quite prepared to accept the idea of conservation, but I wonder whether the minister could not persuade the Department of Fisheries to take another look at this matter and give these Indians the consideration for which they are asking.


Mr. Leboe:: Mr. Chairman, I have only a few very general remarks with respect to this item. I should like to pay tribute to the people who are working with the Indians in the various parts of Canada; to the doctors, missionaries, representatives of churches and hospital workers who are helping to carry out this service.
I realize, as I think we all do, that the solution of the problems is not easy. Up to now I do not think we have given the questions involved the serious attention they really require. In my opinion we have to take a new look at the whole Indian situation. Possibly if some arrangement were made with the provinces it would be much better than to carry on the administration of Indian affairs on a dominion-wide scale. The provinces could then handle these matters on the provincial level. I think the provincial governments would be much closer to the people concerned.
I have a special interest in the Indians because, although my father had a family of 15 children, 11 of whom reached adult life, when I was a young lad he took in three Indian boys who grew up with us. We played with them, fished with them, hunted with them, went to school with them and slept with them. Having had that experience, I think I am in a position to have some idea of what can be done for the Indians.
These boys were no different from any other Indians in any other part of the country. When they grew up two of the lads worked on the Canadian National Railways as sectionmen. Unfortunately one was killed
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration in an accident and the other suffered a very severe stroke. The youngest of the three lads is a section foreman today on the Canadian National Railways. Having been raised in that environment, these boys did exactly the same things as other people in that district. There was no difference at all. They carried on in the same manner.
I do feel there is an opportunity to look into the Indian situation on a more humane rather than on a technical basis. I do not want to say anything at this time about hospitalization because I realize it comes under the Department of National Health and Welfare rather than this department. However, in other parts of British Columbia there has been great development in respect of the rehabilitation of Indians. In some sections of northern British Columbia we find that Indians are working in stores waiting on customers. They are also operating saw mills. They have running water in their houses, and are coming along very well.
I believe a study of the factors that brought that situation into being would give us a better picture as to what we should do with regard to other Indians. I also think some damage can be caused by neglect of Indians in cities. For some reason or other Indians who come into large centres are not as good at resisting the effects of alcohol as white people are. Many people regard the whole Indian population in the light of what they see happen in the case of a few Indians in some of these centres, and I do not think that is a true picture of the Indian at all.
For instance, recently the Prince George Citizen carried headlines dealing with a controversy going on between several organizations in British Columbia and the people in the area generally. The complaint was that there had been discrimination, and I do not think there is discrimination at all.
I can well understand that when an Indian is drunk and disorderly he is not going to be welcomed in restaurants and other public places, but the same thing happens with white people. Because of the colour of his skin, when an Indian is disorderly people say, "Oh, it is an Indian". Sometimes they have been removed from hotels and restaurants, but that also happens in the case of white people.
I do not think there is discrimination at all. There is no difference. Some of the people who do the greatest amount of hollering would be very loath to take such an Indian into their home and put him to bed on the chesterfield in the front room. I do not think they would; yet they will sit back and holler about discrimination. If there is any discrimination I think we should have


an investigation, but I do not think it is worthy of the people involved to bandy these things around to the discredit of the community and the Indians themselves. In my opinion we must take a much more humanitarian look at the whole situation and give real consideration to the problem from that point of view.


Mr. Hansell:: Mr. Chairman, I only have a question to ask and will probably only take up to one o'clock. It is a good question I want to ask the minister, and I ask it because he has the dual capacity of Minister of Justice as well as being in charge of Indian affairs. I have had complaints from certain people that the Indians are not too careful so far as their hunting privileges are concerned. I know none of us want to be harsh with the Indians. We must make a good deal of allowance for them. They are people who have hunted for many years and it is in their blood.
However, the complaint comes to me that the Indians perhaps assume that they have a right to hunt at any time and anywhere. In addition, sometimes they are not too careful about the ethics of their hunting. They will shoot and sometimes leave game in a half crippled and dying condition. They will even shoot and cripple a mother elk and leave the calves there. People have said to me, "What are the Royal Canadian Mounted Police doing about this situation? Do they not know their business?" We know the R.C.M.P. know their business, and if anything the picture may be the other way. Perhaps the R.C.M.P. may be a little harsher with the Indian than with the white man who can really talk back to them. On the other hand, there may be some laxity so far as hunting privileges are concerned.
I see it is one o'clock. I do not need to say anything else, but perhaps the minister might comment on this matter when he answers the other questions.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Mr. Nielsen:: Mr. Chairman, it is appropriate that in rising for the first time in this house I should be given the opportunity to speak on a matter that is close to the heart of the Yukon, that is Indian affairs. I have listened with great interest to hon. members on both sides of the house when they were presenting to the minister the needs of the Indian population in their particular ridings; but if these hon. gentlemen feel they have

trouble, let me assure them their troubles are nothing when compared to the needs of the Indian people in the Yukon.
There are approximately 1,700 Indian people in the Yukon territory. This number comprises about 1 per cent of the total Indian population of Canada. There are about 800 additional Indian people in northern British Columbia who come under the jurisdiction of the Indian agent at Whitehorse. The Indian office for the Yukon, therefore, for all practical purposes can be taken to have jurisdiction over 2,500 souls. One per cent of the Indian population of Canada may not seem great, but when it is considered that this represents 20 per cent of the total population of the Yukon the matter becomes even more impressive.
I have read the annual report of the Indian affairs branch issued by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1957. I note that, just taking a few of the provinces, in the Yukon territory the total sum of $224,250 was expended during the year 1956-57. This is approximately $89.70 per capita. In the Northwest Territories the Indian population is approximately 4,023, and there has been expended there $229,657 or approximately $16.40 per capita. In Nova Scotia the total Indian population is 3,002 and the expenditure amounted to $656,882 or approximately $218.96 per capita. In New Brunswick the total expenditure was $353,977 or approximately $134.64 per capita. In Prince Edward Island, where there are 232 Indian people, the expenditure was $67,137 or approximately $246.83 per capita.
Perhaps the comparison might be more striking if it were made in this way. In New Brunswick, with 129 more Indian people than the Yukon, the expenditure was $139,727 more than the total expenditure in the Yukon on Indian affairs, or approximately $44.49 more per capita. In Nova Scotia, with 502 more resident Indians than there are in the Yukon there was an expenditure of $432,632 more than the total sum expended on Indian affairs in the Yukon. Another way of making this comparison would be to say that for the additional 502 Indian people in Nova Scotia, almost twice as much money was expended as for the 2,500 Indian people coming under the jurisdiction of the Yukon Indian affairs office, or approximately $129.26 per capita.
The only difference between the Indian in the Yukon today and the Indian in the Yukon 50 years ago is perhaps that instead of wearing buckskins he is now wearing blue jeans; instead of finding himself in a tepee he is in a canvas tent. This is all he has
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration protecting him from the elements during some of the coldest weather that is experienced in the dominion. This state of affairs has been allowed to exist during the whole of the past administration. The Indian settlement in the Yukon range from a settlement at Old Crow, approximately 120 miles south of the Beaufort sea, down to the upper Liard, which is just above the sixtieth parallel. The Indian population of the Yukon is scattered over 200,000 square miles. The four main needs of the Yukon Indian must be mentioned here; they are education, housing, industrial development and some sort of planned assistance for integration.
The Indian settlement at Old Crow, for instance derives its complete livelihood from trapping and fishing. I should like to draw the minister's attention to the fact that this village is situated on the Porcupine river, which runs into Alaska. The people in Alaska have established fish wheels on the Porcupine river and they are responsible for what I might call, for want of a better term, robbing the fish from the river. The end result is that this staple in the diet and in the economy of the Old Crow people is rapidly dwindling. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that some consideration be given to approaching the United States authorities in an effort to alleviate this problem.
The other staple, in so far as the Old Crow Indian is concerned, is caribou. These Indians rely upon the fish to feed their dogs, and if they cannot get fish, as at the present time they are unable to do, then they rely upon caribou. I recognize, Mr. Chairman, that there is an intensive study under way now with relation to the preservation of caribou. A study of the ways and means of alleviating this problem with respect to fish would go a long way toward the preservation of the caribou.
This year there was such a shortage of both these staples that the Indian people of Old Crow had to obtain assistance from Indian affairs-for which they are most grateful, I might add-in the flying in of dog food. I might say here that the subject of dogs at Old Crow is a serious one, for without dogs they simply do not get around the country; they do not live. It is their prime means of transportation. Without them they just cease to exist. The other Indian settlements in the Yukon are situated in such localities as Bur-wash, Champagne, Ross River, Mayo, Haines Junction, Whitehorse, Francis Lake, Carcross, Upper Liard, Aishihik, Snag, Teslin.
Another serious matter I might draw to the minister's attention is the fact that there are no reserves in the Yukon as such. In

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration other words, where the provincial Indian people have the opportunity of realizing now and in the future on the natural resources contained on the reserves, none such are available in the Yukon. May I therefore suggest that a study be made directed toward the feasibility of setting aside land in the Yukon which will belong to the Indian people there in perpetuity. These Indian people, of course, existed in the Yukon many years ago in much the same way as they did in the provinces. I believe consideration should be given to the establishment of some security of tenure for them.
While I am speaking on this matter of resources, I might also mention the fact that because there are no reserves in the Yukon, the total Indian population of Yukon has the franchise. I therefore respectfully point out to the minister that the annual report is incorrect in that regard. There are approximately 750 plus enfranchised Indians in Yukon. They are enfranchised in the sense that they may vote in federal elections, and that is all; they are still under the guardianship of the Indian affairs branch.
I have heard a number of hon. members refer to the deplorable conditions existing in the Indian villages in their constituencies. I cannot say with sufficient force that these same hon. members would be shocked at the conditions which exist in the Indian population scattered throughout this vast 200,000 square miles of Yukon territory. Some of them live in tents, and some in shacks that are no more than six feet by five feet with roofs no more than four and a half to five feet high. When I say that whole families live in those dwellings I mean families of five, six and more Indian people. These conditions exist because in my opinion sufficient attention has not been paid to them in the past.
There is only one permanent Indian school, which is a residential school established at Carcross. I understand that plans are under way for the construction of a new school in Whitehorse, where it is intended that Indian children might attend on an integrated basis with white people. May I suggest that no attempt be made, without consultation with the people of Indian communities such as Old Crow, to place children from these far-away Indian communities in such a residential school until the opinion and consent of the leaders of the Indian community are obtained. Old Crow is approximately 750 miles north of Whitehorse. If the Indian children of Old Crow, in order to receive an education, are required to go to Whitehorse, it simply means an absolute divorcing of the child from the family for the whole of the school term.
I respectfully submit to the minister that is not the right approach if it indeed was

intended. There is a school in Old Crow which only need be expanded to care for the existing population there. I would strongly suggest that this be done. The people of Old Crow want it. When I visited there recently this was one of their crying needs, namely additional school facilities. These facilities should not be too much of a burden on the present allotment or estimates of the Indian affairs branch, which I was happy to see had been expanded, most likely to take in this sort of project.
Rather than be parsimonious, as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate suggested was the policy of the last administration in the conduct of the affairs of this branch, I would suggest that there is not only an absolute need but a crying necessity for extending the activities of Indian affairs in the Yukon and, from what I hear from other hon. members, in the rest of the dominion. The only way this can be accomplished is by increased estimates to provide for the needs of these people.
I note also from the annual report that a good number of Indian villages across the land are receiving assistance in forestry projects. Saw mills are being placed in the Northwest Territories and British Columbia. Agricultural assistance is being given to the Canadian Indian people in other parts of the dominion. May I suggest that these same projects be conducted in the Yukon. There is all sorts of room for the establishment of basic industries for the Indian people there. After such study has been made, the plans could include the establishment of basic lumbering in those areas suitable for it. Commercial fishing would be a feasible project. Fur muskrat farming, particularly in the northern portions of Yukon, would be quite feasible, and such other industries as are apparently receiving the assistance of this branch in other parts of the dominion.
I should also like to mention here, Mr. Chairman, that in 1949 the bounty on wolves and coyotes was discontinued in Yukon. The date of that discontinuance coincided with the, shall we say, retirement of another member of this party who contributed much to the affairs of the dominion. I speak of Hon. George Black, who was once Speaker of this house. As I say, when Mr. Black was retired the wolf bounty was discontinued.
The re-establishment of the wolf bounty in Yukon would do two things. It would assist in supplementing the economy of the Indians, something which is a necessary requirement at the moment. It would also, strange as it may seem, assist in the conservation of the caribou herds. It would do this because the caribou now has two enemies, one in the wolf and the other in the high

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
powered rifle. The Indian people of the Yukon right now would not even take the trouble to shoot a wolf, but if the bounty were re-established, particularly in the northern areas, I feel a long step would be taken toward the conservation of the caribou herds which are so vital to the continued livelihood and well-being of the Indian people in that area.
I might also mention that I have had long discussions with the Indian chiefs and their counsellors in the course of my travels in the Yukon, and these people are capable. They have the ability to undertake a great deal more activity than they are being encouraged to do at the moment with respect to their own community affairs. At the moment no co-operation exists between the department of Indian affairs and other government departments and employers in the Yukon whereby encouragement is being given to Indian labour to take up employment in the various basic industries, or to work for the commercial employers who are already in that area.
In other areas of Canada I understand there are Indian placement officers, and I heard one hon. member say there are three such persons in British Columbia. There are none of these officers in the Yukon, though we do have mines in the hard rock and placer fields where Indians might work were some sort of placement assistance given to them. This was not done under the previous administration, and I would strongly suggest to the minister that further consideration be given to the establishment of such a service for the Yukon Indian. I am sure this will happen under this administration.
Furthermore, unlike other areas in Canada the Yukon does not provide interim benefits for the Indian while he is awaiting returns from his job. These benefits do accrue to other Indian people in Canada, but once an Indian citizen does find himself in employment little or no attention is given to the problem of adjusting these people to life in white communities. I suggest this matter should also receive the consideration of this government.
One of the most crying needs of the Yukon Indians is housing, and I have already mentioned the shocking conditions under which they live today. I am glad to see that this government has already taken the initiative to the extent that starts have been made on new housing units in Upper Liard, but the start is far from meeting the real requirements. We need a good many more similar houses in order to cope with the needs of the Indians in this territory.
I might mention at this point that with respect to these five houses constructed at
Upper Liard, the windows were too small and consequently the Indian people in this village left the doors open so they would have adequate light. I would ask that some consideration be given to the possibility of redesigning these homes so that adequate light is provided for the people living there. I would suggest that a study be made of the actual housing requirements of these people, which I am sure could be undertaken by the local Indian affairs branch office if the officer in charge were directed to travel through the territory and submit a plan of what he felt would cover the needs of the Yukon Indians with respect to housing. This would be a beginning and would pave the way for the branch to plan and blueprint its program in line with the real needs of the Indian people.
Before I leave the subject of housing I would just mention that I know this government will give consideration, if they have not done so, to meeting the immediate requirements of the village in the way of water supply, sewage disposal, lighting, fire alarm systems, etc.
I note from the annual report of the Indian affairs branch that this branch has been establishing handicraft schools in various centres of Canada. The Yukon Indian is adept at turning out products of local manufacture, and I am sure with the least bit of encouragement a substantial industry could be established along these lines. I would suggest that a study be made in the Teslin area as to the possibility of establishing a saw mill, and this might be tied in with the housing development scheme in the Yukon. Under such circumstances I am sure the lumber needs could be supplied through local labour. I believe in the Northwest Territories there are three mills now in existence.
I also note that walk-in freezers have been constructed to provide storage for game in the more remote areas. New units have been constructed during the year at Fort Simpson, Fort McPherson and Fort Good Hope. There are a total of 13 now in use, and may I strongly suggest that consideration be given to the establishment of more of such freezers for the Indian people of the Yukon.
May I say that the economic position of the Yukon Indians, numbering 1,700, has been deteriorating under the supervision of the past administration. Fewer Indians than ever before are engaged in domestic fishing, trapping and hunting, even though these occupations remain the chief source of their employment. The larger mining companies are not employing Indian labour because there is no supervision of an adjustment program and there are no follow-up procedures in
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration force. The pursuit of agriculture is quite possible in such areas as Dawson and Carmacks, and market gardening could also be encouraged, providing employment for a good number of local Indian people.
Very little progress was made under the past administration in the improvement of housing conditions. As I say, a start has been made by this administration, but may I urge that it be vigourously extended. May I further suggest that in those areas where the Indian people are moving into towns such as Dawson and Mayo consideration be given to the setting apart of land in these areas upon which housing for the Indian people can be constructed. Such provision has already been made in Whitehorse.
I would now like to refer to the educational program for the Indians. The standards in the Yukon for the Indian children should be investigated and improved, and vigorous action should be taken in this regard. Consideration of this subject should accordingly be given in the estimates. Already integration has begun and there are a few children, apart from the children in the residential school at Carmacks, who attend schools established for white children. Even these white children's schools are inadequate in certain areas.
Might I further suggest to the minister that a joint study be undertaken among the Indian affairs branch, the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the Department of National Defence. This is necessary because most schools in the area are constructed, maintained and supervised on the pro rata contribution of all these departments.
I might mention, too, in closing that there is no program of adult Indian education in the Yukon, and no leadership courses are available to the Indian people there as they are elsewhere. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that under the present administration a good number of these ills which now exist in the Yukon with reference to the well-being of its Indian population will be improved. The remarks I leave with the committee are that these Indian people of the Yukon are franchised and constitute almost one-sixth of the population.
I see that my time has expired. I thank the minister for his indulgence, and express the conviction that we may look forward in the Yukon to a vast improvement in Indian affairs over the past administration.


Colin Cameron: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to take too long but there is just one aspect of Indian affairs with which I want to


deal specifically. I am doing so largely because I was somewhat disturbed by a statement made by the minister yesterday which suggested to me that he may be considering curtailing or slowing up a development that has been taking place with regard to Indian education.
I think he will not be surprised when I say that I do not share his enthusiasm and admiration for the result of the religious denominational education to which so many of our Indian children have been subjected. I say I do not think he will be surprised by that, because he knows our personal views in that regard are poles apart. However, it is not on the basis of my personal views that I want to present this. Rather I want to present this as a contrast in results, because after all, the Indians we have among us now are, as we all are, to a very large extent the product of the educational environment to which they have been subjected; and whenever we deplore the lack of development on the part of the Indian population in different parts of the country as we do in this house, then we are in fact levelling a criticism at the system of education which has produced those people.
I have observed the results of the two different types of education among Indians particularly on Vancouver island and to some extent in the interior, and I cannot avoid the suspicion that all too often in the religious denominational schools there has been too much emphasis on the indoctrination of certain religious beliefs in the Indian children at the expense of educating them so they will be equipped to take their place in modern society.
I could take the minister on an extremely educative tour of Vancouver island and point out to him the results of the two types of education; one, education carried on by one or other of the religious denominations which have charge of Indian education, and the other the result of education in secular schools established by the department of education in the public school system of British Columbia. I could take him to an Indian village on a reserve in the constituency of my colleague the hon. member for Comox-Alberni where a certain religious denomination has a church and mission. The minister of that church was at one time a member of this house, and I remember that he informed me that the Indians there are most kind to him, but that is about the end of it. They are educated in non-denominational schools, and the Indian children of that particular village are now taking their place in the ordinary life of the people of British Columbia.
I could take the minister to the Indians at another place in the riding of my friend the

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hon. member for Comox-Alberni, where for many years the children have been educated in public schools. Many of them went to school with my own children in the ordinary public and high schools of that district, where they were accepted by their schoolmates. Many of them are still friends of my own children and some of them have gone on to university, but I know of no cases where Indian children educated entirely under religious auspices have been able to advance to that stage.
I think we also have to take into account the viewpoint of the Indians themselves. In my own constituency I have been told repeatedly by Indians that their wish for their children is the opportunity to attend the ordinary public schools of British Columbia, because they are convinced that the education they are receiving in the residential denominational schools is not fitting their children to take their place in the ordinary life of the province. These are Indians who themselves were brought up under that system.
I know of one young Indian man who for a time lived with my family when he was attending university. He began his school career in a religious denominational school and was there until he was about 10 or 11 years of age, when his parents moved him and sent him to an ordinary public school near Comox. This young man told me that when he first entered the public school and first mixed with white children after these years of living in a residential school he felt completely lost, not merely from a social point of view but also from an educational point of view, because from the age of eight in this residential school he and all the other Indian boys had been obliged to spend a large part of each day in the operation of the farm that was attached to that school. I can recall another Indian lad, a young hereditary chief, who also went to school with my children. He expressed similar views to me about the results of this segregated religious denominational education for Indian children.
I would hope the minister would now press forward, in British Columbia at least, with the program of integrating Indian children into the general school population. I think I can say, at least for the school boards of Vancouver island, there is no longer any antipathy to accepting Indian children. There is, however, an obstacle, one that was brought to my attention by a member of one of the school boards in my constituency during the Christmas recess. He told me they are anxious to find a place in
their schools for the Indian children, but that they find it an impossible financial burden because of the very limited financial contribution made by the federal Indian affairs branch.
I would hope the minister would consider most carefully not merely a contribution toward the operational costs of those schools but in certain instances a contribution toward the capital cost for the expansion of school facilities. I think when we face the kind of situation I drew to the attention of the minister earlier this session-the tragic fires which occurred on a number of reserves, one of them in my own constituency, which exposed the appalling conditions under which children are living-we should realize that there is something radically wrong, when after two generations we are providing Indian children with a certain type of education which plainly and obviously is not fitting them to take their place in this modern world.
I suggest that the position the minister and the department should take in this matter is the position which the majority of the people in British Columbia have taken ever since British Columbia became a crown colony. That is that state education should be divorced from religious instruction, which is a matter for the families concerned, and that Indian children should be given the same opportunities which other children in British Columbia have to obtain the benefits of the very successful and excellent secular school system of that province.
I hope the minister will pay the visit to Vancouver island which I have suggested and note the contrast between those sections of the Indian community whose children have been attending either a departmental school or one of the schools run by the province, and those whose children have been sent for two generations to these denominational schools. I think the minister will then be obliged to admit that to judge by results these religious denominational schools have finished serving any purpose they may have served in earlier days. I believe that at Alert Bay the former denominational school has been converted into a dormitory in which Indian children from outlying islands are housed when they attend the public schools of that district, and it might not be purely coincidence that more than one young Indian from that area has entered the University of British Columbia.
These are facts which should be considered by the minister when he is considering his program for Indian education, at least in the province of British Columbia, and I hope to have some assurance from him that there will be no reversal of the policy which was
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration being pursued by his predecessor in this matter of integrating these Indian children into the regular school population of the province without regard to the wishes of those who desire to indoctrinate these children with certain religious beliefs.


Mr. Zapliiny:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to take only a few minutes on this item in order to bring to the attention of the minister one or two matters relating to Indian affairs.
I think the minister will recall that some two weeks ago I suggested that he should look into the possibility of replacing houses on Indian reserves as one way of providing employment. I wish to return to that subject again today. It has been mentioned earlier by other hon. members in relation to their own areas, and I want to give one example in my own constituency.
The one I have particularly in mind is the Valley river reserve, which is not a large reserve but is a good example of a community where new houses need to be built. A study of conditions there would show why a new approach should be made toward the provision of accommodation on this reserve. At present a number of log buildings are in existence which have been occupied for many years, and which in my opinion are not fit for human habitation.
The policy which has been followed in the past has been to provide a certain amount of money each year in the budgets of various agencies for the purpose of constructing new frame houses. It has usually worked out in practice, at least in my part of the country, that an Indian reserve of the ordinary size receives about two new houses a year. This rate of replacing outmoded log buildings which are unsanitary and which make no provision for even a minimum of comfort is, in the first place, much too slow. There is also another problem which arises. When a decision is being made as to who shall occupy these new houses-the one or two which are provided each year-there is always an understandable scramble among the residents of the reserve as to who shall occupy the property. I do not know on what basis the tenancies are decided, but I do know that a great deal of discontent and local friction is caused when there are only one or two new houses to be occupied and a dozen or more people wish to occupy them.
I believe it is totally unnecessary, particularly at a time like the present when we seem to have surplus building material and when we certainly have surplus labour, to ration these new frame houses on such a stingy scale. I think the department should take a square look at this situation and replace those old log buildings, where they
TMr. Cameron.]

exist on the reserves, with good modern frame homes, because it is time the old buildings were scrapped.
I believe the minister should consider going ahead with a full-scale program of house replacement on those reserves, a program which, incidentally, would cut out the scramble which now takes place for the few new homes now available and bring about a much more satisfactory condition on these reserves from the point of view of sanitation. I hope the minister will look into this question and inform the committee what he has in mind in this respect, because when I raised the matter two weeks ago he said in his reply that he was very much interested and would have an investigation made.
I also wish to bring to the minister's attention the necessity for making some provision for the introduction of local industries into the reserves. About a year ago the province of Manitoba appointed an economist to make a survey of living conditions on the reserves and the possibility of setting up local industries. I have not yet seen any report of this survey and perhaps one is not yet available, but I suggest that the department should co-operate with the effort which is being made by the province of Manitoba and with the efforts of other provinces which I am sure, are acting along similar lines. The department could then integrate its own plans with the efforts being made on the provincial level to break the impasse which now exists on many of these Indian reserves where traditional means of living, mainly fishing, hunting and trapping, have been exhausted and where the Indians must now either evacuate their reserves to seek employment elsewhere or find some other means of earning a livelihood.
Most of the Indian reserves in Manitoba are located near a lake or a large river and a good deal of fishing is engaged in, but there are some reserves which are not located near water and whose timber supplies have been exhausted not, I may say, by the Indians themselves but as the result of a rather doubtful system in the past of allocating timber licences to private individuals. However the situation came about, the fact remains that many of these reserves are completely impoverished, and I think an extra effort must be made now by the department and agencies at the provincial level in co-operation to try to bring in some industries to help sustain these communities.
I do not think there is any one type of industry that would be universally applicable to all the reserves, but I could give a few examples of types that might be applicable in the province of Manitoba.

In a few instances there are still substantial stands of timber near Indian reserves, and from time to time these timber stands are put up for bids by private individuals or firms under the tender system. I believe if the government were to supply the capital and give some encouragement and help from the organizational point of view they could assist the Indians on the various reserves to form co-operatives to engage in lumber production, and perhaps something could be accomplished.
I have talked to quite a number of Indians on these reserves who have expressed keen interest in that type of industry. Obviously they could not finance it themselves because they simply do not have the capital, but if the government would advance the capital to enable them to set up a co-operative saw mill, planing mill or some small industry having to do with lumber products, they would be prepared to repay the advance over a period of time. They do not want to be given anything, but they do need pump priming of that sort.
I think many of them would be prepared to enter into such a co-operative arrangement and take full responsibility at the local level for the operation of an industry of that kind. Over a period of years they would pay off the debt and then they would own the industry themselves. With the timber stands still available I think that is a very good possibility in certain parts of Manitoba.
Another possibility would be fish filleting and processing plants. On those reserves located near reasonably large lakes such as lake Winnipegosis, lake Winnipeg, lake Manitoba and others in my province there is some possibility of providing employment if fish filleting and processing plants are established. Some canning of fish products could also be done, and perhaps also some canning of poultry products.
The point of the whole thing is that something of that sort must be done on these reserves to provide full employment, if possible, or at least part-time employment during the slack season when the Indians cannot find employment elsewhere. It would have the effect of giving them a certain amount of self-confidence and security right on the reserves.
Unless we take some steps along that line the only alternative I can see is for the department to make a determined effort to have the Indian population become fully acquainted with agriculture. That has been tried on several of the reserves in my area, and I must admit that it has not been too successful. There are many reasons for that such as lack of know-how, lack of proper
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration equipment with which to start, and there may also be others. Unless the department is prepared to try a land settlement scheme and change the Indian from his traditional methods of earning a living to what to him would be a new method of making a living then the other alternative I have mentioned may have to be employed and small local industries established which would operate on a self-sustaining basis and provide local employment and an opportunity for the local people to take a good share of the responsibility.
I want to emphasize that last factor, because I am not advocating that the government should establish industries on these reserves and appoint a manager or some sort of commissar to run them. I believe the Indians would prefer to own these industries co-operatively and take full responsibility for the success of their operation. They have no hope whatever of doing so themselves because of the simple fact that they do not have the capital or the possibility of borrowing the necessary money. They have no collateral to pledge if they want to try to raise the necessary money, because in many cases the Indian Act prevents them from offering any collateral.
I hope the minister will look into these two matters carefully, because if the situation on other reserves throughout Canada is the same as on the several in my constituency I must say we have very little to be proud of, in that we are not providing much leadership to the Indians on the reserves. I hope the situation is better elsewhere.
There is one more matter I want to mention, having to do with a complaint I have received from a number of Indians on reserves in my area. I am passing on this complaint because Indians have made it to me. It is said that the field representatives attached to the various agencies throughout the province, whose duty it is to assist the Indians and give them advice respecting the limited agricultural activities in which they take part and to check on their living conditions and other matters, do not visit the reserves often enough.
The minister can check for himself and find out how authentic the complaint is. It is said that there has been a tendency for these field representatives to become pen pushers, to sit behind a desk at the Indian agency and try to run their business from there. We all know that in a job of that kind you cannot properly fulfil your responsibility as a field representative or instructor on an Indian reserve by sitting behind a desk and issuing orders or writing letters. The men must be there on the job. They must
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration go into the homes of the Indians, discuss matters with them, listen to their grievances and try to do something about them.
As I say, I am not making any charge because I do not know the exact facts. However, these complaints have come to my attention with a fair degree of regularity in the last year or two. I believe the situation requires investigation, to see whether the men appointed as liaison officers or instructors on the various reserves are actually on the job in the field doing what they were appointed to do instead of sitting behind desks pushing papers around. I hope the minister will also look into that situation. (Translation):


Mr. Raymond:: Mr. Chairman, having
listened very attentively to the comments of the three previous speakers, I was struck by the great variety of problems that can crop up in a country such as ours. All three of them have outlined-and very effectively, I thought,-the needs of some of the Indians in their respective counties. Each in turn showed that, with regard to housing and education, they had genuine grievances to express.
However, the case I am interested in is quite the reverse of those brought up by the three hon. members who preceded me because my appeal is on behalf of tax payers versus the Indians.
From time immemorial there has been an Indian reserve in the riding I have the honour to represent. This reserve, which occupies one of the most picturesque sites within our province, in the very heart of the Laurentians, covers an area of about 7 to 8 square miles. Some 30 years ago it was occupied in summer by one or two families, and then about 25 years ago, the Indians left it altogether but, to safe-guard their rights, a lone Indian, supposedly as a warden, was made to spend a few months there each year.
Now, some thirty years ago, the government spent between $30,000 and $40,000 opening up a road which serves as a short-cut between two highways in the Laurentians, the road from Ste. Agathe to St. Donat, and the one from Ste. Agathe to Rawdon. Several surrounding municipalities are interested in having that road maintained and improved for the use of tourists travelling to this scenic section of the county. Now, for the last 25 years, the government has been unable to have this road properly maintained, because the Indian band that was supposed to occupy the reserve has, for all practical purposes, abandoned the reserve and, therefore, the road remains unused.
If, therefore, under the legislation, as it stands, neither the neighbouring munici-


palities, nor the provincial or the federal governments are allowed to improve this road, it seems to me that the act should be amended.
In my constituency, the provincial government is even now building a highway, a "turnpike" or "thru-way" scheduled to be completed in two or three years. It is therefore easy to imagine what this highway will mean for the development of that part of my riding. What with a population of one and a half million people right next door,- in the city of Montreal,-one can easily realize that Montrealers will henceforth want to settle in the county of Terrebonne.
Some years ago, a highway had been planned which would have gone through St. Jerome, St. Hypolite and Ste. Marguerite, and then circled the reserve in question. But the presence of this reserve which, as I said a moment ago, covers from 7 to 8 square miles of virgin forest in between 20 to 25 lakes, retards the progress and development of this area.
Yes, it impedes the development not only of this particular area, but of several other neighbouring villages.
Even if it cannot revert to the crown, that is to the provincial authorities, something should be done at least to obtain-I do not know just how but the hon. minister might perhaps think up some way-from the Indian band, which I would describe as the trustees of that property, permission to improve the road that crosses the reserve and links the two highways to which I referred earlier.
Those are the suggestions I wanted to put before the minister, in deference to the wishes of several neighbouring municipalities, and especially of the municipal council of Ste. Lucie which, only recently, sent me a resolution asking the federal government to be so kind as to co-operate with the province and the municipality in bringing about this improvement.
(Text):


Mr. Patterson:: Mr. Chairman, there are a
few observations I wish to make on the estimates of the Indian affairs branch. I am going to make them just as brief as possible. I have not only some general observations to make, but there are several specific matters pertaining to my own riding which I should like to bring to the attention of the minister.
I am sure we are all aware of the progress that has been made and is being made in the improvement of the welfare of our Indian friends across Canada. However, in spite of the progress that has been made,

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
we still have very far to go before we can be satisfied with the conditions under which these people are living. In British Columbia we have an institution which I believe is rather unique, and that is a provincial advisory committee on Indian affairs. I am not sure whether or not any of the other provinces have such an organization, but this committee, under the chairmanship of Professor Ellis H. Morrow of Vancouver, is doing splendid work. The advisory committee was authorized by provincial order in council in 1953, to investigate means of improving federal-provincial co-operation in the administration of health and welfare services to Indians, and to co-ordinate the efforts of both governments in this particular branch of Indian affairs.
I have in my hand the seventh annual report of that committee for the year ended December 31, 1956. I regret that I have not the one for last year, but this report does refer to many of the activities that are being carried on in an endeavour to raise the living standards of the Indian people, and bring them up to a position where they are able to enjoy, appreciate and enter into the life of the communities. I should like to refer to one paragraph of this report:
The harmonious co-operation between the provincial department of health and welfare, the director of Indian health services, and the Indian affairs branch has continued to create healthier and happier living conditions for many Indian people in the province.
After saying that, it goes on to say:
Nevertheless, there are a number of problems yet to be overcome.	[DOT]
I feel it is only by co-operation between the respective levels of government, and cooperation with the various organizations interested in Indian welfare, that we will solve those problems and get to the place where we can look with some degree of satisfaction upon our achievements.
A number of problems have been referred to during the course of this debate, one of which was the condition of our Indians with respect to housing. I have a letter which I received some time ago calling attention to the conditions on Indian reservations, at least one reservation in my particular riding. I think possibly the same situation exists on a good many other reservations, if one can judge by the expressions of opinion of the various members. I should like to make this broad suggestion. There should be a complete survey made of all of our Indian reservations with respect to housing to ensure adequate dwellings for our Indian friends. It may not be that we can provide for them the type of housing in which many of our white people live, but still I feel that
some concerted drive should be made to see to it that their housing facilities are adequate for their needs.
I called this matter to the attention of the former administration and was assured that the situation had been investigated; that someone had visited the reservation and seemed to be more or less generally satisfied with the conditions he found there. I have a letter in reply stating that when any representative of the department of Indian affairs makes a survey of the reservation it should not be done by driving through in an automobile and looking at the situation from the outside. The representatives should go there with the expressed intention of investigating very thoroughly the conditions under which the Indians are living and then make recommendations that would bring about the provision of better housing facilities. I am not going to say any more in that connection, but I hope that a real survey will be made of these various Indian reservations with a view to bringing the housing facilities up to a good and fair degree of adequacy.
Suggestions have been made today with regard to the integration of Indians into our community life. On page 5 of the report to which I have referred we have a reference to a conference that was held at the court house in Vancouver on Wednesday, June 27, 1956, the purpose of which was to discuss ways and means whereby the Indian population of British Columbia could be more fully integrated into the life of the province at the community level.
I believe that this is an extremely important matter. I personally do not believe that the system of segregation that we have at the present time is going to accomplish very much for our Indian friends. I do not think it is a good thing as far as our community life, our provincial life, or our national life is concerned. The observation made in this connection was as follows:
Delegates agreed -unanimously that more Indians should be encouraged to join social organizations as a means of encouraging neighbourly contacts between the Indians and their fellow citizens of this province . . . Delegates to the conference agreed, therefore, that more encouragement would have to be given by group leaders to Indians than in the past.
I may say that those in attendance at this conference were leaders of the Boy Scout and Girl Guide associations, the junior Red Cross, the parent-teacher association, the provincial council of women, the St. John Ambulance, the women's institutes, the Y.M.C.A., the 4-H clubs, the Indian affairs branch, and the community programs branch of the department of education.
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I believe that these people are capable and desirous of entering into the lives of our communities if they are given the encouragement that is needed along this line.
The subject of education has also been raised. I should just like to refer to another section of this report with respect to education. On page 9, I read the following:
There are numerous examples of co-operation between the B.C. department of education and the Indian affairs branch. Last year, inspectors of the provincial department of education inspected eighty-five Indian day-school classrooms, and in so doing evaluated the progress of approximately 2,100 Indian children . ..
By agreement with local school boards, Indian children are enabled to attend provincial public schools. Latest statistics show that there were approximately 2,000 Indian pupils attending provincial public schools in 1956, as compared with 1,650 in 1955.
I believe that this is an indication that more and more of our Indian children are attending our day schools and in this way are brought into contact with the other children in the community, thus helping them to take their place later on in the economy of our community.
I should like to say a few words with regard to two or three matters of local concern. I believe my colleague the hon. member for New Westminster today raised the matter of the mosquito control programs that have been conducted in the Fraser valley of British Columbia. I have with me a copy of the minutes of the Fraser valley mosquito control board. One of the recommendations that was passed at that meeting was that the federal government be asked to "up" their grants for this purpose from the $1,500 that they had been paying for the last two years or so, I believe, to $5,000.
In reply to communications on this particular matter the minister advised my colleague that the department could not see its way clear to accede to this request and made the suggestion that there were few Indians who would benefit by such a program. I will just refer to this letter of January 21 in which that statement was made. I should like to suggest to the minister that it is not only a case of doing something that will directly benefit the Indians-and we want to do that, of course. The fact is that we cannot build a fence or a wall around Indian reservations; and mosquitoes have wings. When the communities carry on spraying operations and destroy the larvae in those other sections and when no similar program is carried on in the Indian reservations, when the mosquitoes hatch, of course, they do not respect boundaries and so they fly over and cause a great deal of trouble and irritation to the people in the other sections.


Mr. Hamilton (York West):: Our mosquitoes are better trained.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Perhaps we could take some lessons in how to train mosquitoes if they are better trained in other sections of the country. That is the situation. The municipal authorities feel that there is a responsibility resting upon the federal authorities and upon the Indian affairs department to provide for adequate spraying in those reservations. I therefore hope that the minister will take another look at that matter and see whether he cannot accede to the request or at least "up" the figure from the present amount of $1,500.
The hon. member for Yukon said that I ought to see the mofcquitoes up there. I think we have enough. I can assure him that they are big enough to cause a good deal of discomfort right in the Fraser valley.
I should also like to refer to a problem that we have with regard to hospitals. I realize, of course, that under the change in hospital administration there is a responsibility that rests upon the provincial authorities for providing health care to the Indian people. In the village of Abbotsford, for instance, we have a fine little hospital but there are occasions when we find that a considerable amount of the facilities are taken up with caring for Indian children who do not really require hospital care. The parents come down from other sections of the province of British Columbia and go across the border, for instance, into Washington. They are working there and then possibly some of the children will take ill and they are brought across the border. As we are just about two miles from the border, we are asked to admit them into our local hospital. The parents then take their leave, and after the children are ready to be discharged there is no one to take care of them. Because of the nomadic tendency of some of those Indian people, it is almost impossible to locate them. Hence there are occasions when children are kept in the hospital for much longer periods than they are absolutely required to be kept there. Because Indians act in this way, other residents of the community are unable to gain admission to the hospital.
The suggestion has been made-and I brought to the attention of the previous administration without satisfactory results- that some provision be made in Coqualeetza hospital to take care of those Indian children. It has been said that this hospital is essentially a tubercular hospital, and it was not thought advisable or possible to admit children to even a part of that institution. However, in view of the fact that most of these people to whom I have been referring suffer

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
from some type of lung or bronchial trouble, we do not feel there would be any impossible or insurmountable barrier in the way of providing some facilities in the Coqualeetza hospital to take care of these children. I therefore ask the minister to give his attention to this particular matter.
I have one other problem which I would like to mention. I have just received a letter from the president of the British Columbia farmers' union, advising me it has been brought to his attention that the Indian schools in the Fraser valley have for some years apparently been supplied with skim milk powder from an eastern Canadian firm. The president of this farmers' union has gone to the trouble of getting some figures with respect to this matter and he points out that the freight charges on this powder cost the government $7.45 per 100 pounds, while the local freight charge is about $3. He also points out that consumption is about 40 pounds every ten days. To supplement the skim milk a vitamin biscuit is being given to those children. It is supplied by the Paulin Biscuit Company under a government approved formula.
We would just like to point out that the Fraser valley is Canada's largest milkshed area and that problems do exist there with respect to the surpluses of fluid milk. We therefore request that any milk used in these residential schools be supplied from local concerns, for example, the Fraser valley milk producers' association, which would be quite capable of providing not only fluid milk but also the skim milk powder requirements for these institutions. I pass that information along to the minister and his officials and ask him to take the matter under advisement.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am sure the minister will be encouraged by the fact that all of those members taking part in the discussions are pleased to find and would like to see more money spent by this department in respect of the estimates. I note from the estimates that there has been an increase of over $3 million from the 1956-57 period, which gives the minister something over $27 million for the Indian affairs branch. However, in view of the fact that there are about 150,000 Indians in Canada, this works out at less than $200 per person. I note that as early as 1670, during the reign of Charles II, instructions were given to the governors of the colony to the effect that those Indians who desired to place themselves under British protection should be well received and protected. This appears to have happened 288 years ago and then, 203 years ago, we had our first Indian superintendent appointed. We have had a number of treaties since that time. In 1763,
there was a royal proclamation that no Indian could be dispossessed of his lands without his consent and the consent of the crown. I am glad the minister has made the intent of that proclamation quite clear since he has become the minister.
I also read that back in 1875, as a result of the increase in the cost of living, the annuity was increased from $3 to $5 per head. In view of the fact that this was 75 years ago, and it was then considered that $3 was quite inadequate, it is very hard to understand why it would be considered that $5 is quite adequate now.
I think we must look at the problem which confronts the Indian people of Canada from coast to coast. When you consider that in the last two or three years the taxpayers of Canada have spent $200 million on building the mid-Canada line across northern Canada, where the Indians can see with their own eyes the very extravagant type of quarters which must be provided for the people who go up there for a short period, the comparison is quite striking between such accommodation for those people performing the public service and the sort of quarters with which the Indians are obliged to content themselves.
In the Sandy Bay district of my constituency about a year ago there was an unfortunate fire which took the life of an Indian woman and several of her children. Two of the girls were sent to the hospital and are now going to be handicapped for life as a result of that fire. These are not treaty Indians. The Saskatchewan government is responsible and has spent well over $10,000 on medical and hospital care as a result of this one fire, not to mention the loss of life and the permanent disability of these very nice young girls.
It would appear to me that a country with the resources of Canada could do something more than we have done to date to fulfil those responsibilities which we undertook as long ago as 1670, and I am sure as a result of the comments made this afternoon the minister will be in a stronger position to go to his colleagues in the cabinet and say that the very small change which has been made available to the Indian affairs branch is quite inadequate in view of the extent of the problem.
About 5 per cent of my people are Indians; of course a great many of them are not able to vote, and I think we should also have a look at that particular problem. I believe with 150,000 Indians in Canada we should, if necessary, make a change in the British North America Act so that these people would be able to send their own spokesmen to
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration parliament. It is going to be very difficult to have elected members come to parliament from a relatively small Indian community and I am sure all hon. members of all parties are anxious to present the claims of Indian people fairly well but, when you have 5 per cent of the people who are Indians, and when they are scattered over such a large area, it is not easy to see that sufficient attention is paid to them and to their problems in parliament. On the other hand, in New Zealand it has been found possible to make provision for the native people of that country to go to their assembly and to express their points of view. In India every consideration is given to minority groups so that the spokesmen of these groups can go to the Lok Sabha, stand up in their places and speak for the people whom they represent.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question? Does he not think the suggestion he is now putting forward would be underlining and strengthening the principle of segregation which most of us want to see ended?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am expressing my own personal opinion and I believe it would be helpful for some of the outstanding Canadian Indians at some time to be permitted to come to the Canadian parliament, but I am sure it will be difficult in Bonavista-Twillingate for any of the Indian people in that constituency to be represented when the hon. member who presently represents that area has 75 per cent of the vote.


John Whitney Pickersgill: There are no Indians in Newfoundland.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The
hon. member is a bit of a "redskin" himself.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The Prime Minister has given a commitment that someone will be appointed to the other place to represent the Indian people. Since most legislation originates in this chamber, I think we should have a spokesman in this house for the
150,000	Indian people of Canada so they might be able to get a better deal than the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate ever conceived of for them while he was minister of this department.
Following the June 10 election I visited several Indian communities in my constituency which I did not have an opportunity to visit before the election. I suggest that this is a good practice to follow, particularly when one's polls are scattered over such a large area. I find that the meetings in Indian communities are most interesting. It is necessary for the visiting speaker to have an interpreter and usually the parish priest is available to serve in this capacity. It is


customary for the speaker to say a sentence or two and then pause while the interpreter translates the words into the language of the local Indians. After one has spoken, it is surprising how many Indian people express valuable ideas, many of which are more useful and constructive than those we have expressed in this chamber. After one has heard the representations made by these people one realizes that if the suggestions could be acted upon we would be doing better than we have been doing in the field of Indian affairs.
At Sandy Bay we have two completely different worlds. There is the Indian community on one side of the water and a large modern power plant with up to date houses for the people who are employed by the Churchill river power company on the other. The Indians there work on construction and are skilful workers. Although these two communities have existed on either side of the water for 25 years the Indian community still has no power. Power there is very cheap and in fact all heating in the community on the other side is provided by electricity and the homes are equipped with electrical stoves and refrigerators. My Indian friends there find it difficult to understand why there is no power in the Indian village when power is so cheap and readily available. It happens that some of the Indians there are treaty Indians and some are metis. When the federal government has been approached about this question it has advised that conditions at Sandy Bay are much better than those which obtain in other Indian communities. The provincial government takes the same attitude that money is not in as short supply at Sandy Bay as it is in many other communities. It appears to me that some interesting experimental work could be done at this location if we could get an agreement between the provincial and federal authorities.
The management of the Churchill river power company has been keenly interested in this problem. An examination of the annual report of the company reveals that since April, 1956, handicraft orders have been placed to a total value of $16,000 which were shipped from the branch central warehouse. I think that is a small amount to produce.
Perhaps I could refer again to India. The handicraft industry plays an important role in the economy of that country and when one considers this I believe one gets an idea of the possibilities of this industry in Canada among our native Indian population. Our Indian people are highly creative. If a special effort were made on the part of provincial and federal authority to co-operate more

extensively we could perhaps send trained people into the various Indian communities to make a real attempt to increase the production of handicrafts.
I am glad to note that some progress has been made in the field of technical education but we are moving slowly. When one considers that we are prepared to spend $60,000 on the training of a young Canadian when he leaves high school to qualify him for service in the air force it would appear that we should be prepared to spend some money in training people in these isolated Indian communities. We should place greater emphasis on technical training for the young people in Indian communities.
At Sandy Bay and at Island Falls in the northern part of my constituency the young Indian lads who have been employed by this company have demonstrated their skill in the use of machinery. They have a genuine aptitude in this direction and I think we should be spending a larger amount of money and we should make available a larger staff to bring technical education to many of these centres.
I recently received a letter from Sturgeon Landing, one of the northern points in my constituency which served to remind me that I have been unable to visit the Indian people in this community for 14 years. As a result of the influx of settlers the native Indian people have been pushed northwards and westwards and this has posed real problems to the native Indian population. At Cumberland House, the oldest settlement in the province of Saskatchewan, both the general population and the school population have increased in recent years but the fishing reserves and trapping do not provide the livelihood they did 200 or even 100 years ago in that area. We must take into account conditions in this changing world. The $5 annuity that was considered adequate in 1875 can scarcely be considered adequate today and the sum of less than $200 for each person under the provisions of the Indian affairs branch is not adequate in view of the other disbursements made by the government of Canada.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Chairman, I hope that the minister's duties this afternoon did not prevent his taking part in the ceremonies in which the modern version of the Bennett wagon was launched. I sincerely hope that it will not become as common a vehicle as its predecessor was.
I rise at this time to speak particularly about the question of Indian affairs because of some comments which have been made concerning the manner in which children of native Indians have been educated throughout 96698-260
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the years. I had some experience with the Indian affairs branch in my younger years and I know that at that time it was doing everything that was permitted under the act, and I might say permitted under the amount of money that was provided, to improve the standards of education of Indian children. During the years of the Bennett regime I worked at an Indian school and if I recall correctly the children of that school were fed, clothed and educated for about 40 to 45 cents a day.
Members of the C.C.F. party and in particular the hon. member for Nanaimo feel we have been making a very grave error in setting these children aside and teaching them, as well as the natural things, the supernatural things which in my opinion prepare them for their journey through life much better than the purely secular training which the hon. member for Nanaimo would prefer. I think the error the socialists make is that they fail to realize that the error in the first place, in the very early days, was the setting aside of the Indians into reserves, and making them wards of the government. Socialism, was, perhaps, taken to its fullest degree in that instance. Those people were very resourceful when the country was taken over, but they have since declined in resourcefulness. That is not because of the way in which they were treated in the schools; it is because of their original segregation, and it is the inevitable result of making people wards of the state.
We must do more for the Indians. I believe the time is coming when they should be integrated into the rest of the population. But I think it is quite unfair to say that those who have been responsible over the years for attempting to train the Indian children, assisted by only meagre resources, are to blame for the situation today. When the children reach the point of graduating from the grade schools they have no opportunities to go on farther. That, in my opinion, is the most serious handicap which they have suffered. I have known these people, these fathers, brothers and nuns who have devoted their entire lives to the betterment of the Indians. The fact that they were unable to make these people into great scientists is no fault of theirs but rather the fault of the people of Canada who have not been willing to assume the financial responsibility for doing so.
There are several reserves in my riding and at least two of them could be assisted a great deal by a system of irrigation. One, in particular, is the St. Eugene Indian reserve which, I am sure, would make great progress if water could be obtained for the fields. I believe a plan is now going forward, and that some of the white farmers in the area are
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration forming an organization with the Indian band in an effort to bring water to all parts of the reserve. I hope the department will watch this closely and see what can be done to help in this enterprise. Certainly I hope the department will do whatever it can to give further assistance to those people who have been trained at the school in that area. They have been trained to become farmers, and I am sure they would make excellent farmers if they had the necessary facilities.
My chief object in rising was, of course, to say that the job that had been done by the Indian schools in the past should command the admiration of us all, and I am sure the same excellent work will continue in the future.


Mr. Herridge:: I realize I am rising to speak in the shadow cast by the setting sun of this parliament. It may be the last speech I shall have the opportunity of making in this parliament. We do not know. We are living in an atmosphere of uncertainty which, I presume, will be resolved within a short time.
I have listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks made by hon. members who have spoken, and I am not going to take the time of the house by going into my own views, except that I applaud the efforts of all hon. members to improve the conditions of the Indian population. However, I rise to make a somewhat unusual request of the minister and knowing that his roots are deep in the interior of British Columbia I trust I will strike a responsive chord on the harp of his pioneer instincts.	[DOT]
The subject with which I wish to deal is related to the former Arrow Lakes Indian band. The last member of this band died, I believe around 1953. At one time, as far as we can ascertain, there were about a thousand of these Indians living in various camps as far north as Revelstoke. In 1811, they definitely assisted David Thompson in his exploration of the Columbia river and worked for the Hudson's Bay Company in connection with the Columbia express which carried on from 1818 to 1866. They were the first pilots on the sternwheel river steamers from North Port to Revelstoke. I have a vivid recollection of their working for the first settlers who carried on agriculture in this area. I went to school with a number of those children-it was a small school with about 18 pupils-and one or two of the squaws worked for us sawing wood at $1 a cord. Those days are gone forever. I was present at the arrest of Chief Louis who was arrested for disemboweling his brother. He returned to Nakusp after about 30 days to live happily ever after, and the curious thing is that though I have searched I have 

been unable to find a line in connection with this chief's murder of his brother in any of the archives or police records of that time; nobody has been able to tell me why, after committing this murder, Chief Louis was able to return home and live until the end of his days on the Arrow Lakes. I might explain that violence was not his normal nature, but that the incident was the result of fire water supplied by people who should have known better.
Owing to the decline in the number of those Indians and the arrival of more white settlers, the main camping grounds were disturbed, and in 1906 or 1907 an arrangement was made for the establishment of a small reserve on the Arrow lakes for the remnant of this tribe which then totalled, 24 souls-I have an exact nominal roll for that date.
Those people lived by hunting, fishing and berry picking. In the years after settlement by the white man began they began to grow a little corn and they did odd jobs for ranchers, fruit growers and so on. The last member of the band died in 1953. Just 142 years from the time the white man first arrived on the Columbia river the band became extinct after, so far as we can find out from Indian records and what the Indians told us of the early days, living there in peace and tranquility for hundreds of years. Just think of it, one hundred and forty-two years after the arrival of the white man the band became extinct.
There was some valuable timber on this small reservation. Incidentally, I want to compliment the minister on his new policy with respect to timber on Indian reserves. I am very glad to see that he is having a timber inventory made with a view to some form of timber management. There is no question about it that, as happened on this reserve, and others-I have seen it myself- timber has been slaughtered without the necessary supervision. I understand it was the practice of the department in earlier days to turn the matter over to the provincial forestry branch who would give them an estimate of the timber. The person who made the best stumpage bid would then cut the timber with little supervision. The management of these timber resources was one of those extra duties imposed on the already busy officials of the forestry branch.
Because of my particular interest in the conservation of timber and natural resources, I want to emphasize again that I am very pleased indeed with the policy announced by the minister the other day. It should have been announced a good many years ago. As the result of the sale of the timber

on the particular reserve to which I have been referring, I was informed that when the last survivor died there was a surplus in the band fund of between $3,000 and $4,000. I took up the question at the time and I was advised that, under an agreement with the provincial government, that when the band became extinct the reserve would revert to the crown in the right of the provincial government and any surplus band funds would be returned to the provincial government.
I want to make a suggestion to the minister which I have been asked to mention to him particularly because this is British Columbia's centennial year. The main camp of the Arrow Lake band on the Columbia was always situated at the junction of the Kootenay and Columbia rivers. I remember it quite well. The first crossing of the Columbia south of Revelstoke by a white man took place near the same point, above the junction of the Kootenay and the Columbia.
A number of pioneer residents have suggested to me that for the sake of our coming generations we should do something to commemorate the existence of this small band of Indians who lived for so many years along the Columbia river. This suggestion has been made to me and I make it to the minister. I do not know the status of the $3,000 or $4,000 surplus in the band fund at the present time, but I have been asked to suggest that the minister might use his good offices to suggest to the government of British Columbia that his branch and the government of that province should co-operate to build a memorial or monument at the junction of the Kootenay and Columbia because it is the site of the main encampment of the Arrow Lake band and near the first crossing of the Columbia south of Revelstoke by a white man.
The suggestion is that the Indian affairs branch and the government of British Columbia should co-operate to build a monument to the memory of these Indians as the first citizens of the area and to the memory of the first white pioneers who crossed the Columbia at this point. It has been suggested to me that this dual purpose monument would be most appropriate and most fitting. It would be located in a very scenic spot, as anyone knows who has driven down the road facing the junction of the Columbia and the Kootenay. It would be an additional attraction not only to residents but to tourists, and with some very economical landscaping of the site we would have a record for future generations of the Indian band that lived there for many years and of the white man's 96698-260J
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration first activities in crossing the river at that point. It is a very historic crossing, originally known as Sproat's Landing.
I make that suggestion to the minister. I think it is something we owe to this small Indian band which has disappeared because of its inability to face contact with white civilization. I might say that the majority of the band died of tuberculosis shortly after they moved from wigwams into frame houses. I trust that the minister will give this matter consideration. If after investigation by his officials he finds that the money in the fund has already been paid to the government of British Columbia, will he bring our representations to the attention of the appropriate persons in that government?


Mr. Blackmore:: Mr. Chairman, I have listened with much interest and appreciation to the many things which have been said on behalf of the Indians by the various members who have participated in the debate up to the present time. It is not my purpose to take much time as I believe there are others who would like to be able to speak before we turn to other matters at five o'clock.
I should like to say a word about the matter of integration. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate recently made the remark that we were all working towards integration. It is important, I believe, that we define first the meaning of integration as applied to the Indians. The Indians do not want integration in the sense that they would inter-marry with white people and cease to be an Indian people. After all the abuse we have given our Indians throughout the generations since we took over responsibility for their welfare, it seems to me that we could at least respect their desire in this important matter. I have always maintained that if the Indians desire to go to white children's schools, if they desire to intermarry with whites, if they desire to accept the white man's religions or to accept the white man's right to vote, that is their concern. Let us give them the utmost freedom to do as they desire.
It is to be granted that future generations of Indians may look upon the matter differently in some respects from the way in which Indians now living now look upon it, but as long as the Indians of today look upon the question of integration as they do, it seems to me that no responsible member of parliament should talk about our wanting integration of the Indians.
While I am referring to the work of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, may I say for the record that in my judgment the hon. member, when minister of citizenship and immigration, did a good job. I do not
4118.	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration think he has anything to grieve about in that connection and I am putting these words on record so that they will be there for his descendants to read that he did a good job in his work respecting the Indians. I happen to be in a position to know something of what he has done.
I should like to turn now to the matter of health. It is granted that apparently we have turned over to the Department of National Health and Welfare the responsibility for the health of the Indians.
In a general way, I would raise the question as to whether or not the department of government which has responsibility for the welfare of the Indians should turn over the matters of Indian health to the health department which is not in a position to know the essential facts pertaining to the situation which affects the Indians.
Just to show how serious this could easily be, I raise this question for the minister. I am going to take the reserve which is in my constituency, the Blood Indian reserve. Is it so, that after having established an excellent Indian hospital there, available to the Indians, with a fine staff so far as I know, we refuse to allow Indians into that hospital for treatment, no matter how serious their ailment may be, unless the cash is placed on the barrelhead. I have been told this by Indians; whether it is accurate or inaccurate, I do not know. Not so long ago I was told of an Indian woman who had to have a very serious operation. The man had to go all around amongst his friends, almost frantically to borrow enough money to enable him to pay for the cost of that woman's treatment, because she would not be admitted to the hospital and given that treatment unless he paid the money.
The report may be inaccurate, but let me bring to the attention of hon. members who do not happen to know, that the financial position of the Indian today is very, very precarious. We are having a great amount of difficulty in enabling our white people to secure jobs. Surely, the difficulties an Indian encounters in getting a job must be greatly increased as a result of that condition. The white man is suffering almost intolerably as a result of the rise in prices, for which he is in no respect responsible, and so is the Indian. How can any organization representing a Christian nation, with democratic ideals, deal as callously as I have indicated with Indians who are desperately in need of health services, when all the facilities for the health services are right on the ground, yet the Indians may be unable to get the means with which to pay for those services? May I suggest that if the minister's department has not,
[Mr. BlackmoreJ

up to this time, assumed a very intimate supervision of the way in which the health department of Canada discharges its responsibilities with respect to the Indians, that it institute rigid supervision to make sure the health department administers the health services for Indians in accordance with the ideals of the Indian department.
While I am dealing with this subject, I should like to say a word or two in commendation of the gentlemen who are sitting here as experts for the department. I have had considerable dealings with them and I have found them at all times forward looking and ready to help the Indian. The only thing that is going to be in the way of either the men who constitute the department in an administrative sense or the man who has charge of the department as the minister now does, is money. We have spent one dollar on our Indians where we should have spent $200, and the same thing holds true today. Some people talk about the Indians being more or less dull and lazy. I ask you, what non-Indian would be alert and energetic if he were half starved while he was growing up and had to subsist on food utterly inadequate for the maintenance of sound and robust health? I thought of that while some hon. members across the way were talking about the small amount of food provided for Indians. I want to commend the officials of the Indian department. I have not seen the minister in action long enough to know whether or not I could commend him, but judging from the sincere, effective way he goes at his tasks I think he will do a very good job. He will be hampered though by the lack of money at every single turn.
I wish to raise another matter, and I should like the officials of the department to look into this. Oil wells are being found in southern Alberta. Just exactly what is done to make sure that the Indian receives the amount of money to which he is entitled from the discovery and exploitation of oil on his reserve? Is there a means by which the councillors of the band can find out exactly how much money is being made from any given oil well? Is there any means whereby they can determine exactly what ought to be their share? Is there any means whereby they can appeal if they believe that the share allotted to them is inadequate considering all aspects of the situation? The hon. member for Red Deer asks if this appropriation conforms to provincial regulations of Alberta?
Alberta has been exceedingly wise in the way in which she has administered her whole oil industry. I believe provincial regulations are so designed as to give everybody

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
who has anything to do with any given oil well a square deal. We want to see that the Indians get their square deal. It may be that in due time there will be a considerable number of oil wells developed on the Blood Indian reserve in southern Alberta. This reserve is only a very short distance from the famous Pincher Creek wet gas field, one of the finest fields in Alberta. The reserve is also only a short distance from the Water-ton Lakes field in Alberta, which appears to be opening into something really good.
I wish to turn to another matter which I believe will be found to be very important. I ask the members of the house, most of whom are practical businessmen, how far would they be able to get in conducting any business if they were not free to go to the banks and obtain the credit they needed for the development and prosecution of their business? They realize they would be utterly helpless. I would ask the minister to look with great care into the matter of the facilities an Indian has on each and every one of the reserves for getting credit with which to buy cattle, machinery, or to obtain any of the other things necessary in order to carry on farming, lumbering or any other industry which might be appropriate, considering the resources of the reserve in question. My information is that the Blood Indians in southern Alberta are unable to get credit. If any of them can get it they will be the very best and most successful of Indians.
One would ordinarily conclude that those who are less successful ought to be able to obtain credit, too, so they can try themselves.
It looks to me as though a considerable amount of money, even if we allow it to be lent to the Indians and in some cases lost, would be well spent in providing ambitious Indians who seem to be credit-worthy in other respects with the means of obtaining loans with which to develop their holdings on the reserves. It could be that it would be wise to establish a sort of small bank on any Indian reservation and to let that bank be administered by someone in conjunction with the agent working along with the agricultural supervisor and those who are put there to help develop the Indian's ability to make a living, with the objective in mind of bringing just as many Indians as possible up to a position in which they can produce and make their own living. I leave that as a suggestion which I believe the minister will find to be quite well worth investigating.
If the minister would wish to answer some of the questions I have raised, I should be glad if he could give us the answers. Perhaps I had better leave the Indian branch until later.
I understand there are one or two hon. members who would like to speak. But I should just like to say this. I am right with all those who are prepared to go forward and put the Indians up where they ought to be, realizing as I do that we have no right to expect the ordinary Indian, raised under the conditions under which he is raised, malnourished as most of them are, for at least a generation, to excel as they would excel if they had the means of getting proper nourishment and proper contact with educational facilities.
Before I resume my seat I may say just a word or two more in respect of the work done by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. While he was in charge, he and the fine people who are here before the minister, planned to build a big school in Cardston. Now that school is well along the way to completion. I think they spent $500,000 on that school. Cardston is prepared to take in the Indian children, just as many as will come and just as soon as they will come. They will take them as to school grading just exactly where they find them when they come in from the various other schools. They have set up school rooms in which teachers will teach who are particularly skilful in taking a child and bringing it educationally up to standard. They are prepared to take the Indians and do all that can be done to give them a chance for a good education. The previous minister is entitled to full credit for having taken a forward step in helping to build that school to accomplish that objective, and I want him to receive that credit.


Mr. Hardie:: I rise at this time, Mr. Chairman, to point out to the minister and to the house some of the problems confronting the Indians of the Northwest Territories. I will try to be brief as I am not too sure whether I shall be back here at eight o'clock tonight.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Why
not?


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I should therefore like to say a few words with regard to the administration of Indian affairs in the north. Hon. members will recall that in June of 1956, I spoke in this house on the subject of Indian affairs administration in the Northwest Territories. I want to quote from that speech of June 19, 1956. As reported at page 5191 of Hansard I said this:
There is something wrong with the salesmanship in the department of Indian affairs when northern affairs can sell treasury board on a staff of 23 to look after game in the same area in which the department of Indian affairs can sell treasury board on a staff of four to look after human beings, the natives.
I am happy to say, Mr. Chairman, that since that time, the department of Indian
4120	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration affairs have increased their staff in the Northwest Territories from four persons to ten. But, if the department of Indian affairs want to do a job in the Northwest Territories and, I may say, in the Yukon Territory, they still have some increasing in staff to do. At the present time in the Northwest Territories we have Indian agencies at Yellowknife and Fort Norman which we had, of course, in 1956. Since then the situation has changed. We now have an assistant agent at Hay River in the Northwest Territories and an assistant agent at Fort Simpson in the Northwest Territories.
I should like to put this proposal up to the minister. If he really wants to do a job in the north, I would suggest to him that he do the following. He has his agency at Yellowknife. He now has an assistant agent at Hay River, as I mentioned. This agency in Yellowknife is covering an area of many thousands of square miles. They cover points like Fort Rae, Fort Resolution, Rocher River, Snowdrift, Fort Providence, Jean Marie River, and Fort Simpson. If this agent were to cover this agency, just in one trip with an aircraft, he would travel close to 2,000 miles. Up until this time this agent has attempted to cover this area, but with the meagre estimates which the department of Indian affairs have given him for travel, he can cover this area only once or twice a year.
I want to propose to the minister therefore that an agency be set up at Fort Rae where in the Northwest Territories we have the largest group of Indians in one area. This agent at Fort Rae could look after the Indians at Fort Rae and the Lac La Martre area. The assistant agent you have now at Hay River could look after Hay River, Fort Providence and Fort Resolution. The agent at Yellowknife could look after Yellowknife, Rocher River and Snowdrift. The agent at Fort Simpson could look after Jean Marie River, Fort Simpson, South Nahanni, and Fort Liard. The agent at Fort Norman could look after Fort Norman, Fort Franklin, Fort Wrigley, and Fort Good Hope. Then I would propose in addition to that another agent at Aklavik to look after Aklavik, Fort McPherson, Arctic Red River and, if my friend the hon. member for Yukon will agree-and I am sure he will -Old Crow in the Yukon. I forget the exact mileage, but Old Crow is something like 600 miles from Whitehorse where the only agent of the department of Indian affairs in the Yukon resides. If Old Crow were taken into the Aklavik agency the agent at Aklavik would be within 120 miles of Old Crow.
While on the subject of personnel, I wish to say, as I said in 1956, that the department should hire people who know the Indian, who will live with the Indian and who are interested in improving the welfare and the way of life of the Indian.
[Mr. Hardie.l

It is not necessary to have Ph.D.'s or graduates in social welfare from the University of Toronto. The people we need are those, as I have said before, who are interested in the Indians, are interested in bringing to them a new way of life, in trying to improve their conditions and interested in living with them in their present condition and endeavouring to bring them out into a new world; in other words, helping them to enjoy a way of life such as people in the rest of Canada enjoy. Some of these graduates from the universities are people who would not know a rabbit track from a snowshoe track and they are not the people we need.
I will not deal with the question of education of the Indian, because in the Northwest Territories the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources has apparently taken over the education of these people and now has residential schools in mind. I will say that when the new schools at Yellowknife, Fort Simpson and Aklavik are completed they will look after the immediate needs of all the Indians living in the Northwest Territories at the present time.
I would like to point out to the committee, as I have done in past, that education is one thing and employment for the graduates of high schools or vocational training schools is another, but the responsibility of providing these people with an opportunity to make a living is placed squarely on the shoulders of the department of Indian affairs. The department should immediately commence a program whereby Indians leaving the schools, whether academic or vocational, will not be required to go back to a life of hunting and trapping, the life lived by their mothers and fathers. There is no use in giving an education to an Indian in these days of the inside lavatory age, with its running water, its showers and its three meals a day and all the rest of it, if immediately he comes out of school he has to go back to his ranch-type hovel. We have been hearing a lot recently about ranch-type bungalows, but it is no use making him go back to his ranch-type hovel where he must eke out an existence by means of trapping and hunting about which he knows nothing.
The problems of education about which I have been speaking are those problems concerning children of school age, but we have other problems. We have the problem of the Indian from the age of 16 up. Such people are not of school age and a large number of them have not been educated at all, in either academic or vocational fields. Therefore it is necessary for them to eke out an existence by way of trapping and hunting.
In this house during the past month or so we have given cash advances to wheat

farmers in western Canada and the other day . we passed a bill to give support to farmers in Canada. At the time the agricultural bill came before us I moved an amendment to bring trappers under the agricultural support program. The Minister of Agriculture, as a result of questions he received from both sides of the house with respect to whether pulp-wood should come under this program, said it "could" come under the program; when he was asked whether fruit would come under the program he said again this commodity could come under the program. From both sides of the house members were asking if this or that commodity would come under the agricultural prices support program and I asked the minister whether fur, fur-farming, or the products of fur-farming, would be covered under this scheme. He said that fur-farming would come under the price support program. Silver fox farms or mink ranches would come under it but not trappers.
My point at that time was that a trapper is a farmer; he traps his areas or his trap line; he takes off a certain amount of his crop this year, he leaves the breeding stock and next year he takes off the crop again. It is necessary for him to look after and farm his area. The minister, however, could not put fur under this program for me. As a matter of fact I did not hear anyone ask if horse manure came under the agricultural prices support program, but I would say if anyone had asked such a question-and if horse manure is not an agricultural product I do not know what is-then he would have said it could come under it. The only thing that could not come under the program was fur.
I would say to the minister in charge of Indian affairs that he should discuss with the Minister of Agriculture the possibility of bringing fur under this price support program and thereby help these people who are eking out their meagre existences by trapping and hunting.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order to allow the house to proceed to the consideration of private and public bills.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, the former having priority.



FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, December 3, 1957, consideration of the motion of
Financial Administration Act Mr. Poulin for the second reading of Bill No. 9, to amend the Financial Administration Act.
(Translation):
Mr. Auguste Maltais (Charlevoix):: Mr. Speaker, I gather that the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. O'Hurley) has concluded his observations on the motion of the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Poulin) for the second reading of Bill No. 9-
(Text):


Raoul Poulin: On a point of order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. What is the point of order?


Raoul Poulin: On the reading of my bill I answered "Stand".


Auguste Maltais: Are you afraid to go ahead with this bill?


Raoul Poulin: No, I am not afraid.


Mr. Speaker:: I must inform the hon. member that the debate can only stand by unanimous consent of the house.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. Speaker:: I take it that unanimous consent is not available as the hon. member for Charlevoix (Mr. Maltais) has risen.
(Translation):


Auguste Maltais: Mr. Speaker, as this bill has been on the order paper for some time and has been discussed at length, I feel that in the view of most hon. members, it should be carried right now, in the interest of national unity. I therefore ask that the question be put at once.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: I declare the motion carried. 
Bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Courte-manche in the chair.
On clause 1-Negotiable instruments to be printed in English and French.
(Translation):


Mr. Lambert:: Mr. Chairman, the bill now up for consideration by members of the committee is one which had long been looked forward to by many people. I hope that those members opposite who do not understand French too well will be so courteous as to pay close attention to my remarks.
Mr. Chairman, as a French-Canadian from the east who settled out west where the principle of bilingualism is being applied to a lesser extent than in the province of Quebec, I find-as I pointed out when this bill was before us for second reading-that it is the wish of all Canadians that the French be on the same footing as English in federal government documents, inasmuch as this country was founded on the principle of equal rights for both races and both languages.
What comes as a surprise to me, Mr. Chairman, as a new member, is that this principle of bilingualism went unrecognized by the hon. gentlemen opposite who are quite enthusiastic today.


An hon. Member:: We will be tomorrow.


Norman Platt Lambert: I should like to point out to the house that both on the government side and on the opposition side, the people's representatives have come out in favour of this bill. About twenty-five years ago, we were granted bilingual banknotes. Why did it take so long to grant us federal government negotiable instruments or bills in French as well as in English? I ask the hon. members opposite-who had been here all along-why was this principle not recognized at the time?


An hon. Member:: Do not kill the bill.


Norman Platt Lambert: If you so earnestly favour the principle now, why did you not accept it then?


An hon. Member:: Why are you speaking now?
Another hon. Member: You are out to kill the bill.


Norman Platt Lambert: I am taking part in this debate because I wish to point out that in a free vote, the majority of the members of this house have recorded their approval of this bill. Those who opposed it did so as a matter of principle. In this democratic assembly, they are granted the right to vote

in a democratic way and if they are against the principle involved, they have the right to show their opposition.
(Text):
Now, Mr. Chairman, this bill has had a short history in this session. However, I should like to put on record the fact that those who seem to be so violently in favour of it appear to have had a change of heart. (Translation):


Mr. Breton:: Will my colleague permit me to ask a question?
(Text):


Norman Platt Lambert: I just wonder how many would have voted against it on other occasions. I know that today there were many members who voted on this bill according to their convictions, and I hope that the great majority did so. Those who voted against it felt that they could not accept that principle or believe the people whom they represented could not accept that principle, and those members should be accorded that right. We are living in a democratic country. We cannot all hold the same points of view, otherwise we would not have the type of government that we have.
About 25 years ago legislation was passed legalizing bilingual bank notes. It is my sincere hope that before too long, as a result of this or similar measures, we will have bilingual money orders, postal notes and other federal government documents. This nation was founded on the principle of equality of people and equality of languages. I am a product of that mixture which is Canada today because my father was French, my maternal grandmother was Irish, my mother is Belgian, and I am married to an English girl. Frankly, I hope that in Canada today we are getting away from hyphenated Canadianism.


Auguste Maltais: This is a nice way to kill the bill.


Norman Platt Lambert: We are all Canadians.


George Randolph Pearkes: Closure again.


Norman Platt Lambert: As I said, for many years we have been, bit by bit, eliminating that hyphenated Canadianism. We are here as representatives of the Canadian people, and the more we recognize that fact the more we will help the principle of Canadian unity to be an established fact. In order to arrive at that position, we must accept the fact that Canada was begun by two different races. Under the 'British North America Act, certain rights are accorded to both of these peoples which will eventually lead to a United Canada. I do not want to delay the bill any longer, but I simply wanted these thoughts to be put on the record on behalf of one who is essentially bilingual.
Financial Administration Act


An hon. Member:: Here is the Orange lodge.


Mr. Small:: Mr. Chairman, I accept the interjection which was made from across the floor, and I am not ashamed of it. Someone said something about the Orange lodge.
I suppose this was meant as a slur, but the very individuals against whom these slurs are directed will probably be the ones who will stand up for the maintenance of the rights of those who are hurling the slurs across the floor. Throughout the history of this country those people have been on record as favouring equal rights for all and special privileges for none. At the time this country became a British possession those people saw to it that you were granted the very principles and ideals for which you stand.
As long as there is an organization like the Orange association in this country, they will stand for their principles. Oh, yes. There are a great many who profess to stand for them and give lip service to them but that is all. I would not have brought this subject up if it had not been for the fact that someone took the opportunity to make the statement "the Orange". Therefore, when I rose to speak that statement having been made, I did not evade it. There are certain things that we do not believe in and there are certain things that we do believe in. We still think that in this house we have the right to give expression to our views. I hope the time will never come when a member cannot stand up in this house for the ideals that he believes in. Yes, I will go so far as this. We will accord to you the right to fight for the very things you cherish.


Mr. Richardson:: May I ask the hon. member whom he is addressing when he says "you"?


Stanley Howard Knowles: And
what does he mean by "we"?


Robert Hardy Small: I am referring to the hon. members on the other side. It was not I who chose this particular line of argument. He said that I was speaking as representing a certain number of people in this country.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Robert Hardy Small: You mentioned it and I said I was proud to accept the statement. It was the Orange order you were talking about. I think there have been a good many days in the past in this house when the Orange order has been mentioned. I think there was a time in this house when the majority of those who sat in it could be designated as Orangemen. I think of the liberties that you have and that you enjoy such as the right of freedom of speech, the right of free assembly and the right to follow the dictates of your own conscience. The reason you

Financial Administration Act enjoy them is that there was for over a century and a half in this country an organization such as the Orange order which you are now trying to deride. Because we cannot go along with you in your attempt to introduce this legislation it does not mean to say that we would try to bar you from the use of your language.
I suppose you would be surprised to know that of my own volition I am attempting to master the art of the use of the French language. I suppose I would surprise you more if I were to tell you that I have only to go back four or five generations to claim as an ancestor the name of Joseph Dupleix who was governor of French India, whom Robert Clive contended with at Trich-nopoly and Pondicherry. If you really want to know my background, that is it. But still there are such people who are classified as French Canadians but whom I prefer to call French, who are very cultured and who are to be identified with the Orange order.


An hon. Member:: Name them.


Robert Hardy Small: After all the years you have been in this country, you do not know that the very reason you are enjoying the privileges that you enjoy today is the order's existence in the country. Privileges and religious liberties that were handed down through the years are contained in the bill of rights.


William Moore Benidickson: Orange Toronto.


Robert Hardy Small: If you do not know that, it is about time you took a little time out to read about it and to find out the work that order has done in the past and will continue to do in the future. They will not deprive you of one of the privileges granted to you in 1763.
Everyone knows just what has happened here today. You thought you could put over a fast one and you thought you could get a curve on the ball. Well, even if you put a curve on the ball, if you hit it in the right spot you can knock it for a home run. But you did not get a home run. You got caught on third. In this bill that has been presented here tonight clause 1 reads as follows:
1. The Financial Administration Act is amended by inserting therein, immediately after section 33, the following section:
t 33A. The form and material of every negotiable instrument issued under section 33 and of every negotiable instrument issued by or for any department or by or for any crown corporation as defined in paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of section 76 shall be subject to approval by the minister, but each such negotiable instrument shall be printed in both the English and the French languages."
Then they explain the purpose of the bill. In the explanatory notes we read the following:
The purpose of this bill is to provide that every cheque, draft, traveller's cheque, bill of exchange, 

postal note, money order, postal remittance and any other similar remittance of any department as defined in paragraph (f) of section 2 of the Financial Administration Act or of any crown corporation enumerated in schedules B, C and D of the same act shall be printed in both the English and the French languages.
This is in accordance with the principle established in the Bank of Canada Act where it is enacted (subsection (4) of section 21) that the notes payable to bearer on demand and intended for circulation in Canada issued by the bank shall be printed in both the official languages.


Mr. Winch:: You are only about ten minutes away from a senatorship.


Robert Hardy Small: The member introducing the bill stands up and says it is going to be one of the greatest saviours of the French language in this country; we have to have this bill; it is going to do so much to maintain the standard that they want; they have to have this bill because there is danger that the French language is going to disappear from this country. No such thing is going to happen. This country will go on according to my French compatriots, with the same rights they have enjoyed for nearly two centuries. But they must have these bills every once in a while in order to maintain what you call the esprit de corps of the race because there is so much danger that the culture may disappear. Every once in a while they must introduce a bill like this to remind them that they are here and that they must remain here.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will
the hon. member permit a question?


Robert Hardy Small: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: will ask just one question. Is this a country where one race receives concessions from the other or is this a country where there is supposed to be equality between our races?


Robert Hardy Small: Yes; they are entitled to
equality and they get it as set out under the British North America Act of 1867 in which the French language is given recognition, right in the act.


William Moore Benidickson: Tory Toronto is always right.


Robert Hardy Small: Oh, no. I do not say that. But neither is Montreal or Quebec always right. As far as I am concerned and the association to which I belong, we have always accorded everything that was granted to them under the British North America Act and which they gained in 1763. My friend the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre knows that.
I cannot blame them if they try every so often to get what he calls a concession. In the province of Quebec they are entitled to the rights of their language, of their race and of their religion. They are allowed certain

rights in the courts. They are allowed to speak French in this house and in the Exchequer Court. Those things are stipulated and they are clearly set out. But they are never satisfied. They want to extend it to the whole of the country; whereas it is distinctly set out in the British North America Act how far they can go and what they are entitled to. Anything they receive after that is because the people of Canada are quite willing to accede to it in this country. However, in view of the fact that it was brought in in this way, I certainly was not going to sit here and be silent about it. As I said before, you did not get a big enough hook on your ball at the time and naturally it was stopped.
I have taken this opportunity of putting myself on record in that I do not agree with this action. I would like to say that since I came to this house I have always received from every member courtesy and consideration and this includes my French compatriots. I have enjoyed their company very much and I hope they have enjoyed mine.
I have spent many pleasant hours with them and we have gone over several situations. They have been very helpful to me when I have been trying to master the use of their language which, at my time of life, is very difficult. However, I am making a fairly good fist of it and I hope some day to be able to understand them if I can only slow them down when they are talking so that I can grasp what they say and converse with them. It is pretty difficult to pick up a language when they talk at gatling gun rate.
Their language to me is very fluent. It is very musical and a language in which I would like to be able to converse. Notwithstanding the fact that I am opposing this bill, there is no reason to believe that French culture is doomed. This bill is just one of those dodges which are brought up every so often for political advantage.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


William Moore Benidickson: This is an Orange funeral.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased
96698-261J
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act for the relief of Ernest Frank Cross.
An act for the relief of Gordon Frank Skilling.
An act to authorize a loan to the government of New Brunswick in respect of the Beechwood power project.
An act to provide assistance in respect of electric power development in the Atlantic provinces.
An act to provide for the stabilization of the prices of agricultural commodities.
An act respecting the boundary between the province of Alberta and the Northwest Territories.
An act to amend the Criminal Code.
An act to amend the Federal-Provincial TaxSharing Arrangements Act.
An act to implement an agreement between Canada and Australia for the avoidance of double taxation with respect to income tax.
An act to amend the Northwest Territories Act.
An act to provide for annual vacations with pay for employees in federal works, undertakings and businesses.
The hour for the consideration of private and public bills having expired, the house will resume the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Courtemanche in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Indian affairs branch-
72. Administration, $512,218.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, when I rose at fifteen minutes to five I said I intended to be brief. I did not know whether or not I, along with the rest of the committee, would be back at eight o'clock. Now that we are back I have to thank the Prime Minister either for his cordiality in allowing me to speak tonight, or for his lack of courage.
When the house went on to the consideration of private bills, I was dealing with the question of a floor price, or a support price for fur. At that time I pointed out to the committee that under the Agricultural Prices Support Act-


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman was out of order before five o'clock, but it was so close to five o'clock that I did not press a point of order. However, I do not think he should be allowed to continue out of order after eight o'clock. The prices support act has nothing to do with the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
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Mervyn Arthur Hardie: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, I was dealing with fur, and I was suggesting to the minister before five o'clock that he should take up with his colleague the Minister of Agriculture the possibility of doing something about establishing a floor price for fur under the agricultural support bill which was passed the other day.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, you will remember that the hon. gentleman raised this point in connection with that particular bill. The bill has been disposed of, and I suggest he is out of order in raising the same point tonight.
If hon. members opposite wish to filibuster these estimates-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Edmund Davie Fulton: -I have all the time in the world, but I do suggest that in their attempt to filibuster they should at least try to keep in order.


An hon. Member:: Nonsense.


Mr. Mcllraiih:: I should like to contest that point. There is no evidence of any filibuster whatever, and the minister, if he wants to get the estimates through this committee, should not make charges which he knows are wholly false.


Mr. Robichaud:: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps the minister would check yesterday's Hansard and find out how many columns he filled in his own name.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Before you rule on that point of order, I should like to speak on it, Mr. Chairman.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Speak on anything. That is all you want to do.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: The minister has insinuated that I want to hold up the estimates of his department.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Not you alone.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I want to tell the minister that I represent 4,500 Indians in my riding, and if I cannot speak for them in this house, then it is time we heard something about the supremacy of parliament from the other side of the house.


Edmund Davie Fulton: You certainly never heard anything about it when you were over here, and I suggest that if the hon. member-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Henri Courtemanche: The hon. member will be allowed to discuss trapping, and fur, but I would ask him not to discuss a matter which was not accepted in connection with a bill which has already been passed.


Edmund Davie Fulton: There is an item under which he could talk about furs.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I will abide by your ruling Mr. Chairman, though I am still of the opinion that I had the right to say what I did. However, I will leave that point, which I think I succeeded in making despite the interjection by the minister responsible for Indian affairs.
The average trapper in the Northwest Territories earns approximately $450 in one year, according to the figures of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I ask any hon. member of this committee whether he could live on such a sum of money, particularly when the cost of living in the north is at least 30 per cent higher than the cost of living in other regions. How could the wife of any hon. member budget if she had to pay between 30 per cent and 35 per cent extra for all her groceries, between $1.50 and $1.85 a pound for tea, 25 cents for a can of milk, 35 cents for canned peas, and so on? These prices range at least 30 per cent above prices in other parts of Canada. How could any hon. member's wife pay these sums and keep a family on $450 a year?
Some people will say: It is true they have only $450 a year, but the government is very benevolent, and supplies those people with destitute rations. I want to confirm what the hon. member for Skeena said about the rations handed out by the department of Indian affairs, and in order to do so I should like to repeat what I said on June 19, 1956, as reported on page 5190 of Hansard.


Mr. McPhillips:: I should not repeat it if I were you.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: What was that sparkling remark by the hon. member for Halifax?


Mr. Morris:: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I did not say a thing. I am just sitting here following the entertainment. I did not open my mouth.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: It was the hon. member for Victoria (B.C.) and I want to tell him that if he wants to be half the member he replaced he is going to have to do much more than sit over there on the back benches on the government side and interject.
I was talking about rations, Mr. Chairman, and I said I should like to quote from Hansard of 1956. At that time I was speaking to the minister responsible for Indian affairs in the house on that occasion, and I told him that the relief the Indian gets from the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources is not worth the powder to blow it to hell. Excuse me, I said "hades" at that time.

I was happy to hear the minister say yesterday that he was ashamed of the meagre rations being given, and I hope that immediate action will be taken in this regard. While dealing with the subject of rations, I would also point out to the minister that he should do something with regard to the tuberculosis rehabilitation rations. We all realize that a person coming out of a sanatorium after spending from three to five years there being cured of this dread disease is not in any shape to go to work, to trap or to hunt, and that he requires substantial food and plenty of it if he is not to be stricken again in a very short period of time. As I said before, I hope the minister will do something about the tuberculosis rehabilitation ration.
As far as rations are concerned, when I am in Ottawa I turn on my radio once in a while and I hear Mr. Frank Ryan's program. He tells the farmers of the Ottawa valley what they should feed their cattle and hogs and what kind of accommodation they should provide for them. I will only say that if the Indians were treated as well as Mr. Frank Ryan tells the farmers of the Ottawa valley their cattle should be treated the Indians would be happy. I must say that up to now the Indians certainly have not been treated any better.
We have a problem in connection with the fish nets and ammunition which the department hands out to the Indians periodically under old treaties signed with the Indians. I have received complaints from one end of my constituency to the other particularly with regard to fish nets. The complaint is that the fish nets handed out by the Indian affairs branch are not suitable for fishing in the areas concerned. The department is issuing a fish net with a 4J inch mesh and in this area very small fish are being caught. The commercial fishermen in the area have nets with a 3 inch or 3J inch mesh. The Indians feel that the department is discriminating against them by handing out nets with a 4J inch mesh when the commercial fishermen are using nets with a 3J inch mesh.
I suggest to the minister that before the estimates are brought in for next year he get in touch with the agencies and ask the agents in each area to supply him with information with regard to fish nets. I suggest that he ask the agents to get in touch with the Indians, talk the matter over with them and find out what size mesh is suitable for the particular area.
Since I have to be brief I want to deal for a few moments with housing. In recent years the Indian affairs branch has commenced a program of house repair and house building in the north but, as some hon. members have already said, the program is not being
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration carried on with the speed or to the extent that it should be carried on if we are to provide these people with anything approaching decent houses, houses that will at least compare with those found in this so-called civilization on the outside.
We hear a great deal these days about the need for housing and for slum clearing. Many of the houses in this part of Canada in what are considered to be slums would be palaces in my riding as far as the Indians are concerned. I wish members of the house could accompany me on a trip around my riding and go with me into the homes of some of these poor Indians. I should like to take them into what would be considered a standard native home, possibly 12 by 14 or 14 by 18 in size, consisting of one room and with seven people living in it, a man, his wife and five children. In that home what do you find? You find a home-made double bed with no springs. Who sleeps on the bed? The husband and wife and possibly one or two children age four to six. The youngest baby in the family sleeps in a hammock made of rope and some old discarded flannelette sheeting. The other two children sleep in their clothes on the floor with no blankets. I should like to take any hon. member of this house on a trip around my riding. I would take him to Fort Simpson, Fort Smith, Aklavik, any place he wants to name and I would show him how the Indians of the Northwest Territories are living-well, Mr. Chairman I cannot find strong enough terms.


Mr. Cardiff:: Has this been going on for twenty-two years?


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Well, my dear friend, Mr. Maclnnis-oh, I am sorry, it was the whip of the Tory party.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: That is right. I would be glad to accompany you on a trip around your riding.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I have taken this stand whether you monkeys were the government or whether this party was the government.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh!


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear!


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I have made similar speeches when the Liberal party was in power.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: This is the first time you have said anything as long as you have been here. You have had nothing to say.


Mr. Gardiner:: Oh yes, he did.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am sure that the whip of the Tory party-


Henri Courtemanche: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but I must advise him that his time has expired.
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Mr. Harrison:: Mr. Chairman I shall be very brief but I want to bring a matter to the attention of the minister about which I believe the officials in front of him will be able to give him certain information. I want to remind him about the residential school at Beauval in the northern part of the province of Saskatchewan. If he consults his officials he will find that the school is not large enough to accommodate the number of children who would like to attend it. The problem concerns living accommodation. I think there are some measures afoot to alleviate the situation, but I would ask the minister to comment now or later as to what is intended at Beauval and whether the additional accommodation for some 100 children will be provided and, if so, when.


An hon. Member:: What about caribou?


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is anything wrong with caribou but I think there is something wrong with the Rudolph sitting over there.
Mr. Chairman, when you interrupted a moment ago I had not finished my remarks.


Mr. Maclnnis:: On a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Donald MacInnis: I think the hon. gentleman across the way must have gone somewhat astray in his remarks. I want to ask him to withdraw the ones he just recently made.


Some hon. Members:: He did.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am very sorry that I injured that hardrock miner from Cape Breton, but I did not think he was-


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege; I suggest to the Chair that this man's remarks be subject to some control. There is absolutely no need for him to drag my name into the discussion at all, and I should like him to withdraw that statement.


Henri Courtemanche: I do not think the hon. member has raised a question of privilege, therefore I would ask the hon. member for Mackenzie River to proceed.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Perhaps hon. members might feel there has been enough general discussion and they might care to have me reply to some of the comments that have been made. If so, I would be glad to do so at this stage.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am only going to be another five minutes and the minister might just as well sit in his seat and then answer all the questions instead of listening to me for another five minutes after he has completed his rehearsal.
[The Chairman.]


Edmund Davie Fulton: I will take that as an undertaking.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I do want to apologize to our hardrock miner from Cape Breton. I thought I had intimated a few moments ago that I had made a mistake when I referred to the hon. member instead of the whip of the Tory party.
If I may finish what I had been saying, I had indicated that if you were to come to my riding and go to a native home with me you would find that the family was sleeping on the floor. In addition to what I have stated we might find a homemade table and a cupboard of sorts which would be considered a food cupboard.


An hon. Member:: A bare Liberal cupboard.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Does someone else want to raise a point of order or a question of privilege? Does someone else want to take the floor? He can have it, if he wants it. I have heard a lot from hon. members opposite about the supremacy of parliament, but so far as I am concerned I will speak at anytime in this house for the people I represent, whether you like it or whether you do not like it.
As I said, there may be a table and a cupboard.


An hon. Member:: Back to the cupboard.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am sorry; I cannot answer that because I did not hear the question. These goons we have over there have been operating ever since this house began.


Henri Courtemanche: Order; I should like the hon. member to discuss the subject.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: As long as those fellows are kept in order, Mr. Chairman, I will discuss the subject. Well, we got to the cupboard. I shall give you one example. I walked into a home in Fort Simpson similar to the one I have described tonight, and I asked the woman if she would mind telling me or showing me what was in this cupboard. She showed me what she had.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I wonder if the Hansard reporter would tell me what he heard, and perhaps I can answer it. All they do over there is laugh; the Indians do not mean a thing.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I would say this-


Gordon Minto Churchill: Oh, yes they do.


Mr. Morton:: Don't be so self righteous.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Self righteous-well, I will not say it. Here is what I found in this cupboard: one-third of a pound of salt; half

a pound of sugar; three pounds of flour, and down below the cupboard lying on the floor was-
Mr. Pallet!: A couple of Liberals.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I did not catch that remark. If the hon. member wants to repeat it, perhaps I will be able to answer it. Would the hon. member repeat what he said? No answer. We have not had any answers in this house except "in due course" since the start of the session. As I have stated, this was the total amount of food in this house for five people-


An hon. Member:: Ha, ha.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: "Ha, ha," I hear the Tory members say. Well, this is a serious problem, my boy. This is what these five people had to eat, and that was three hours away from the time for the evening meal. I could go on for another 25 minutes.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Oh, no.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: "Oh, no", says the Minister of Trade and Commerce. We have had "oh, no", from him for a long time. He does not know anything about free trade, so I am sure he does not know a damn thing about Indians.


Gordon Minto Churchill: On a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman; let me inform the hon. gentleman that I spent three and a half years on an Indian reserve and I know all about the life the Indians have to live and the type of food they were given at that time under a Liberal administration.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I am sure the hon. gentleman was the great white father, but he would not know too much. I shall close my remarks. I had a great deal more to say but since hon. members opposite insist on passing these items without a full discussion I shall take my seat and hope that the estimates are passed in due course.


Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Chairman, I had intended to make some carping remarks about Indian affairs. However, last night I noticed a news report to the effect that a septuagenarian Indian woman in our area who was trained as a midwife had not been able to officiate at a birth in the last six years because the welfare services provided by the Indian affairs branch are so good. I had better, therefore, restrict my criticism to one suggestion. I would suggest the department look into the amount of money it is spending for air transportation down from the northern regions, especially the rim of the bay, to the Indian hospitals across northwestern Ontario. I have heard a great deal of general complaint about this but no one is able to
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration give me a specific instance. The feeling is that some of the airways are making a killing on the deal and that quite often the trips are unnecessary. Sometimes a plane comes down with one Indian instead of carrying a full load of passengers; in other words, making a sort of charter trip.
One last point I should like to leave in the minister's mind and that is in connection with taking a lead in getting the Indians the vote as far as federal elections are concerned. I hope he does so. I should like to say that in expressing this hope, I think that those of us in northern Ontario have been particularly noble because in the provincial election, the Indians have the vote; and if all the Indian vote in the provincial election, say in the next election, was translated into terms paralleling Ontario, the Conservative government would be returned with approximately 260 out of 265 seats. It is therefore something for them to keep in mind.


Mr. Howard:: Before the minister rises to reply to the lengthy comments that have been made, I wonder whether I could suggest one other thing he might take into consideration. I expect that in answering it he may have, in this instance, to put his other coat on as Minister of Justice. He will recall that yesterday I made a slight reference to the question of racial discrimination towards Indian people in restaurants, cafes and in certain canneries. Since that time-and this is coincidental-I have received a copy of the Prince Rupert Daily News of January 22. A front page headline in that paper reads: "Lawyer Claims 'Discrimination' Practiced in Vander-hoof Cafes", and the article reads in part as follows:
Prince George (CP)-A Prince George lawyer says native B.C. Indians are being discriminated against by whites at Vanderhoof, some 60 miles west of here.
Peter J. Henslowe, a vice-president of the Cariboo Young Progressive Conservative Association, said Indians have been barred from restaurants in the village of 600 people.
Describing the situation as "serious", Mr. Henslowe said he plans to present a resolution on the matter at the annual meeting of his political group in Vancouver next month.
Following underneath that article is a Canadian Press story from Vancouver quoting Mrs. Masie Hurley, publisher of the Native Voice, in which she indicates substantially the same thing, namely that racial discrimination exists. I wonder whether the minister could relate to the house what action could be taken to prevent this sort of thing that has happened in the past from happening in the future? If the minister would like to have the paper, he is welcome to it. I will send it over to him.
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Bert Raymond Leboe: I think the hon. member is behind the times. If he would look in the Prince George Citizen of recent date he would find that those things were denied by the people in the area who are living with the Indians and have to deal with them every day.


Charles Benjamin Howard: May I say one thing in reply. I just use this as a newspaper article which I obtained today to supplement what I know of my own knowledge in other parts of the province of British Columbia. Whether this instance is correct or not, I have no way of knowing, except that it was a newspaper account. I know from my own personal knowledge, that these things exist in other parts of the country, regardless of what the people there in Vanderhoof say.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am sure it will be appreciated that in the time available to me tonight I probably shall not be able to comment in detail on all the remarks that have been made and all the points that have been raised by everyone who has spoken this afternoon. I hope that hon. gentlemen will agree that most of their comments have been in connection with three or four main subjects, namely the question of the education of Indians; the welfare of Indians, including the provision of housing for Indians; the problem of finding industrial and placement opportunities for Indians; and then the question of better relations or if you like, more effective efforts being made by the departmental staff to assist the Indians in solving their problems generally.
Perhaps it would meet the wishes of the committee if I dealt with those four general subjects. In doing so, I think I will be dealing with the comments that have been made. Where specific questions have been asked, I shall try to remember them and deal with them. If I omit dealing with them, perhaps they could be raised again on the specific item a little later on this evening.
In connection with education generally, I think it is only proper for me to say that the feeling of the department and of the government is that the desirable thing is to enable Indian children to live in an environment in which they are going to have to live, we hope, for the remainder of their lives, namely an environment that will train them to take their places as citizens of this country. It has been over the past years and still is the policy to bring about a situation, wherever possible, where Indian children are educated alongside of white children with whom they are going to have to live in this country. But it must be realized that this is a long-term program and that it is going to be many years before


we shall have Indians educated in every case in the same schools as are white children.
I am not quite sure what point of departure the hon. member for Nanaimo found in the remarks he had to make this afternoon with reference to what I said yesterday. As I recall it, what I said yesterday was simply that the residential schools have served a very noble cause in this country and are continuing to do so; and that it will be necessary for many years to provide for the education of Indian children in residential schools.
When we think of the role of the residential school, I think it is desirable to remember that if it had not been for those schools and the selfless efforts made by those who have run them over the past years, we would not have had any Indian education in Canada at all. The fact of the matter is that those schools have been operated on a shoestring for many years. It seems to me to be entirely out of place for people in positions of responsibility to blame the religious orders for the fact that they have not been able to provide for Indian children the education which they would have liked to provide. They have done their best. Any blame to be attached in this connection attaches to the government of Canada over the years for not having realized sooner the enormity of the problem of Indian education and for not having made it possible for these religious orders to do the job that they were willing to do. I think it is most essential that we maintain a sense of proportion in this matter.
While we realize that the residential school is not the whole answer to the problem, we are going to get a warped sense of proportion if we think that the need for residential schools has completely gone. What we are trying to do now is to make it possible for those Indians who still require-and will do so for many years-to be taken in the residential school to receive as good an education as does the white child in a public school. I do not think that the hon. gentleman who raised the point this afternoon or any other hon. member would quarrel with that objective.
Where it is possible to educate Indian children in the company of their white companions, that will be done. Where that cannot be done and they have to be taken in a residential school, the effort will be to raise the standard by providing the facilities to make it possible to raise the standard of education in the residential school to the same standard as we like to see prevail in our ordinary public school system. In many respects the standards are not too far behind

and in some respects they are a little bit ahead of what prevails in the ordinary public school system.
I should like to give the committee some figures on this matter. I should like to make it clear also that nothing I said yesterday and nothing I have said here today should be taken as indicating that the attempts to integrate and co-ordinate the education of Indian children will be set back. That remains the policy. I merely ask that we keep a sense of proportion about the role of the residential school.
At March 31, 1957, the figures for enrolment of Indian children were as follows: At residential schools operated by the department, 10,599 or 28 per cent of the total Indian school population; at Indian day schools, 20,434 or 54 per cent; at non-Indian and joint schools, that is to say, mainly public schools in which Indians are educated along with white children, 6,272, or 18 per cent of a total Indian school population of 37,305.
I think it should also be said that when it is borne in mind that the total Indian population in Canada today is in the neighbourhood of 160,000, the total school population out of that number of 37,305 represents a substantial measure of progress in bringing the Indian children into schools where they may receive education. I am sure that my predecessor will agree that what we want today is to see that amongst the school population a higher percentage is in the higher grades.


John Whitney Pickersgill: And in the high schools.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, well, the higher grades which would include the high schools.
Some question was raised as to whether or not the standards of education in Indian schools are as high as they are in the provincial schools. We have attempted and are still attempting to reach agreements with the provinces in which schools operated by the department will be to all intents and purposes providing educational facilities on the same standard, and we have in fact reached agreement with the provinces of Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, Quebec, New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia for the provision of the facility of provincial school inspectors to inspect the schools operated by the department.
We have to pay for these services at varying rates throughout the provinces, but we are glad to do this to ensure that the education
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration received by the Indian children throughout this country, for whom we are responsible, is of the same standard as that received by the children in schools operated by the provinces.


George Hugh Castleden: I notice in the report that the number of high school children in eastern Canada, that is, all parts east of Ontario including the Atlantic provinces, contains a very small proportion of Indian school children attending grade 9 and above. I think that, according to the annual report of the minister's department, the figure is about 17 children. This is an extremely small number of Indian children who ever have an opportunity for a high school education and in all of the other provinces there are school children attending the schools right up to grade 12. I am not saying that this number is large either, but I think from Ontario east the figure is only about 17; whereas in the rest of Canada there is something over 300 or 400. Is this due to lack of facilities or lack of arrangements, and what is being done about it?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not wish to cast any reflection on any part of the country, but I am informed that it is reasonable to say we have been behind in that part of the country. Great strides have been made in recent years in co-operation with provincial authorities but, perhaps because they were behind to start with, the hon. member will appreciate that they have to get the children through the elementary grades before they can enter the high schools. I am informed that the number of Indian children in the schools is increasing all the time. The program is being pressed to the same extent in the mari-times as elsewhere in Canada. It is expected that in future years the proportion of those entering high school grades in the maritimes will increase.


George Hugh Castleden: I take it from the minister's answer that there are facilities available and arrangements with the provinces have been made so that they may enter the high schools as soon as they are qualified to attend?


Edmund Davie Fulton: As I said yesterday, we are endeavouring to work out, in co-operation with the local school boards, wherever possible and acceptable to the Indians, arrangements to send Indian children to the schools operated by the school boards and contributed to on a joint basis by the department and by the local school operators. That program is going forward in the maritimes and is receiving there just as good a reception as in any part of the country.


Frederick George Hahn: Before the minister leaves this point, may I say this: according to the latest
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration statistical report, the number of Indian children attending public schools in British Columbia, as a matter of fact, this applies to both public and private schools outside of the reserves-was in 1955 almost equal to similar schools throughout Canada. I am wondering how that compares today with what I have for 1955.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Perhaps before I answer that question I could deal with one raised earlier by the hon. member with respect to the amount paid by us to the school boards in British Columbia for the Indian children attending their schools. In British Columbia we pay $150 per year per pupil. As of March 1, 1957, there were 2,081 Indian pupils in British Columbia. In addition to the tuition on the basis of $150 per pupil, we also paid for transportation expenses in some cases and for text books, and so on.
It might also interest the committee to know that the total expenditure for the year 1956-57 on account of tuition and maintenance of Indian school children in non-Indian
and joint schools,	by provinces,	was as
follows:	No. of Indian	
Province	Amount	PupilsNew Brunswick 	... $ 29,395	77Nova Scotia 	182Prince Edward Island .	... 5,165	11Quebec 	444Ontario 	1,489Manitoba 	269Saskatchewan 	... 72,027	308Alberta 	544British Columbia 	... 317,189	2,081Yukon 	137
The total expenditure under this heading was $1,060,422.


Colin Cameron: Before the minister leaves this point, I would like to know if he could answer a question which I raised this afternoon. In certain cases has any consideration been given to making a contribution towards the capital costs in school districts where there is a large Indian population?


Edmund Davie Fulton: That has been done frequently, particularly in connection with the provision of school facilities where we enter into provincial arrangements with school boards for the instruction of school children. We make an estimate of the number of Indian students to be accommodated and then we make an estimate of the number of white students to be accommodated and we contribute proportionately to the capital cost of construction and then arrive at a further figure, per student, for maintenance and tuition of students attending that school. This is becoming increasingly common and is a satisfactory pattern which we have been able to establish with the local school districts.


Ernest James Broome: Are these payments made to the school board or to the department of education? I am asking now in connection with British Columbia.


Edmund Davie Fulton: They are made to the school boards.
In those cases the standard will be maintained and regulated by the provincial department and even where we are able to build our own day schools on reserves we are able to arrange with the provincial department of education for their school inspectors to inspect our schools at regular intervals.
On the question of welfare and housing, several hon. members have raised this point. It was first raised during this session by the hon. member for Dauphin. We have had some studies made with regard to Manitoba and some general studies with regard to the country generally. I am able to give the committee the following information. In the period from April 1, 1957, to December 31, 1957, 160 housing units were approved for construction and occupancy by Indians in Manitoba. The majority of these have been completed and are occupied by the Indians concerned. Those remaining will be finished in the near future. Plans are under way for the completion of an additional 40 units during this winter. This will mean that in the period ending March 31, 1958, some 200 new housing units will have been completed for occupancy by Indians.


William Moore Benidickson: In Manitoba.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In regard particularly to the Dauphin area, with the 12 houses already provided this year and 12 more being undertaken, it is expected that 24 new units will be completed and occupied by Indians by March 31, 1958. The allocation of moneys for the Manitoba region for welfare and housing, including the breaking of lands and the drilling of wells, and so forth, has been $180,275 for 1957-58. Of this amount approximately $95,000 has been spent or committed as the welfare contribution toward the 160 housing units approved for construction. Another $10,000 is applicable to land clearing and for the digging of wells, and so forth. The remaining $35,000 will be utilized to construct an additional 40 housing units, making a total of 200 for the fiscal year. The low unit cost of these houses is due to the fact that the Indians themselves will provide the labour and material in the form of log blocks and the department will finance the cost of windows, doors, floors and roofs only. We have undertaken winter construction wherever possible.
The question of winter construction was raised yesterday also by the hon. member for

Dauphin and in this connection I must say I thought he had a very good point. The hon. member suggested that wherever possible in his area, and I feel wherever possible across the country, in order to provide winter employment for Indians and for contractors who would be asked to supply the materials for the building of houses, we should get on with the housebuilding program during the winter. We had a survey made which has produced the following results. The projects provided for in the 1957-58 annual estimates for which contracts have been awarded in the past few months and which will be carried out during the present winter, thus providing winter employment are as shown hereunder by provinces:
Province
Cost
British Columbia
Alberta	
Saskatchewan ..
Manitoba	
Ontario	
New Brunswick Nova Scotia ...

Total	 1,172,513
The above table shows that the total of construction in the 1957-58 estimates is $1,172,513.
I will now give a breakdown by provinces for projects covered by the 1957-58 estimates of which construction operations are 70 per cent complete and the uncompleted value of which is 30 per cent. This is shown in a table I will read in a few moments. These operations, which are 30 per cent of the value of the total, will be undertaken during the present winter and thereby will provide additional winter employment. The table showing the breakdown by provinces is as follows:
Province	Cost
British Columbia	 $ 87,305
Alberta	 35,791
Saskatchewan	 22,025
Manitoba	 233,679
Ontario	 13,986
Quebec		5,796
Total	 398,582
As can be seen from the table, the total of the above table, together with the total of the previous table, gives a full figure of $1,571,095 for construction projects this year.
Now, regarding the welfare housing program for the remainder of the. current fiscal year, it is estimated that an expenditure of $129,650 over and above the amount authorized in the 1957-58 estimates could be effectively used. A request has already been submitted for the transfer of $74,000 from one vote in the estimates to another and the difference to be covered by an item of $55,650 contained in the further supplementary estimates tabled the other day. I think, therefore,
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration it will be seen that with these construction projects for housing and one or two road construction projects, of which details could be given if desired, we are arranging for a substantial amount of construction for the purpose of providing employment in the winter months and also for the purpose of providing welfare housing and other construction projects on reserves to improve the lot of Indians.
With regard to the question of the efforts being made to provide positions for Indians in the ordinary society and the industries and employment field in Canada today, I must point out the following. I am afraid that yesterday I gave the committee some wrong information. I believe I said that we had three placement officers and were providing for five in the next fiscal year. I find that we have four placement officers this year and are providing for seven in the 1958-59 estimates. We are also undertaking and have undertaken for some years the institution of leadership courses.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the minister permit me to interrupt at this point because perhaps it will save a good deal of time. I asked about the position occupied until June by Mr. Jack. Could I have an assurance that the work he was doing will be continued on at least as large a scale as it was, and that he will be replaced by a thoroughly competent person?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The position is advertised now and the applications are in but the successful candidate has not yet been determined. I mentioned the position yesterday and outlined some of the duties which will be performed by this officer which are, I believe, in slight amplification of the duties which were performed so excellently by Mr. Jack when he held that position.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Jack did splendid work at Red Lake.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I trust that the minister will appreciate my interest in this question. It is a hobby of mine.


An hon. Member:: It is your only hobby.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It is a hobby for which the hon. member should be given credit. With respect to the question of assisting the Indians to help themselves, we have had for many years social leadership courses organized within our own department in all provinces. These courses, although on a pilot project basis so far, have been most successful. In the fiscal year 1956-57, 132 Indians were trained in these leadership courses at a cost of $5,537.75.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
I also made mention yesterday of the forestry survey which we plan in British Columbia and for which we are now negotiating with various forestry engineers with the intention of having a survey made of the total forest resources of Indian lands and determining the best scheme to develop those resources and make them contribute to the welfare of the Indians on a sustained yield basis. It will be our hope, of course, that as time goes on the Indians themselves will be brought into this plan, and, as we are able to train them to do so, take over an increasing amount in the management and operation of the plans that are devised. As this project gathers momentum and as we learn from experience in this field of endeavour it will be our hope to extend it to the other provinces where the amount of timber resources seems to warrant such an expansion. There are other ways in which we are able to provide opportunities for the Indians to take part in training programs and equip themselves to participate in agriculture, industry, and other forms of activity.
There is a revolving fund loan scheme and loans have been made out of this fund in the past for such purposes as sawmills.
I have here a breakdown of the purposes for which these loans have been approved, and perhaps I might be allowed to place this table in Hansard because it is fairly lengthy. It shows there was a total of 752 loans under the following general headings: agriculture, forestry, fishing, motor vehicles, handicraft, guiding, trapping and miscellaneous. Loans to a total amount of $963,664.32 have been approved since the revolving fund loan scheme was established. With the permission of the committee I should like to place this table in Hansard.


Henri Courtemanche: Is that agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Purposes for which revolving fund loans were approved.
Agriculture	No. Amount (dollars)	Total (dollars)Machinery and equipment	243 421,300.92	670,646.23Livestock 	187	112,378.50	Breaking & clearing land	1	300.00	Farm expenses 	67	92,487.51	Livestock and machinery	25	44,179.30	Forestry	Sawmills and equipment	13	27,100.00	70,009.91Power saws 	21	7,059.91	Woods operations 	12	35,850.00	Fishing Boats, engines, nets, gear,	etc	60	47,164.86	47,164.86Motor Vehicles	Trucks-school buses 	23	40,961.86	40,961.86Handicraft 	14	34,100.00	34,100.00Guiding	Canoes, outboard motors ..	23	5,107.60	5,107.60Trapping 	1	600.00	600.00


Agriculture	No. Amount Total
(dollars) (dollars)
Miscellaneous
Community water systems, lighting systems and stores, carpenter, plumbing, machine shop and shoemakers tools, freezer units, gas service station equipment, golf driving range, purchase of baskets for resale, box factory,
housing	 57 95,073.86 95,073.86
752 963,664.32 963,664.32


Mr. Mclvor:: Would the minister allow an interjection? I know of a mill north of Port Arthur, way up north of Lake Nipigon, where the Indian agent got the machinery going and where they are turning out good work.
I should like, also, to thank the officials of the Indian department for extending the time spent by teachers at our two schools in Fort William. The parents have asked me to express gratitude to the officials.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am glad to note what the hon. gentleman says and I am sure the officials beside me will pass on to the teachers and to the local officials concerned the appreciation which he has expressed.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I wonder whether the minister would tell the committee if there is any provision under either the forestry plan about which he has spoken, or under the revolving loans plan, for the acquisition by Indians of timber which is not on native Indian land? Is provision made for the acquisition of crown timber in British Columbia, for example, which could then be processed in the form of sawn logs?


Edmund Davie Fulton: So far, the funds available for that purpose have been band funds. If a band has funds available they are used for this purpose from time to time, but I am informed that up to the present we do not buy timber for them, as timber, out of funds provided by the department.
With regard to this general question of the efforts made to bring the department into closer touch with the Indians, I should say that we inaugurated this fall the first of what will be at least, biennial conferences of Indian field officers from all over Canada. They met at the Alpine inn, and had a three-day conference there which I had the pleasure of attending; and I can say without hesitation that it was a most valuable conference for both the headquarters staff and the field staff. The conference enabled officials dealing with Indian problems, varying as they do in different areas of the country, to exchange views on the difficulties they encounter and on the methods they follow in trying to meet those difficulties and bring

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
the Indians forward in accordance with the program of integration. The conference proved to be of great benefit to them, and also to the headquarters officers, and we certainly intend to continue this meeting on at least a biennial basis, and if experience proves that it is as valuable, as we are inclined to think it may be, we shall probably hold it on an annual basis in future.
While on this same general subject, I should like to pay a tribute to the depu'ty minister and to the director of the Indians affairs branch, who, in 1955, inaugurated a plan of trips across the country which would have the result that within a period of 18 months they would visit every part of Canada, both east and west, including the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, thus enabling them to go into the field and find out at first hand what problems are encountered by the staff who are engaged in administering this work and, what is even more important, to meet the Indians and obtain their reaction to the work being done by the department.
I have to confess that this program was interrupted this year by events over which the officials had no control-the events of June 10 and the subsequent change of government on June 21,-which created a number of administrative problems, with the result that the deputy minister was not able to get away, though the director was able to make a trip to the Northwest Territories to attend a meeting at Fort Smith and a meeting of the Northwest Territories Council, of which he is a member. In the course of the trips he was able to make contact with a number of agencies.
In these ways, and in others which will suggest themselves from time to time, the department and the government intend to make it possible for the departmental officials to come into contact with the Indians and gain a better knowledge-a more firsthand knowledge-of what is going on in the field. I do not, of course, decry the knowledge which they now have.
But they will be placed in a position where the Indians themselves will know that the departmental officials are gaining firsthand knowledge of their affairs. Thus, at every stage, though there may be differences of opinion as to methods, there may be no difference of opinion as to the intent and the genuineness of the efforts which are being made. It is our desire to bring about this feeling on the part of the Indians with respect to the officials who administer their affairs.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I wonder whether the minister could indicate when it is expected that such a visit may be made to the agencies along the Skeena river?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The Indian commissioner of British Columbia has been asked to prepare for a visit this spring. We hope it may be made not later than May, or possibly as early as April.


Mr. Campbell (The Battlefords):: Does the minister not think it might be a good plan to send a note to the member of the constituency whose area these people are going to visit? Last year, I believe representatives of the department were in the town of Battle-ford and held a meeting there. I should like to have been at that meeting had the invitation been sent to me, but I did not wish to barge in. I think we might be invited when such meetings take place.


William Moore Benidickson: I should like to support the hon. member who has just spoken. I, too, felt, a couple of years ago, when these representatives came to the territory of Kenora-Rainy River, that they might have let the member representing the constituency know they were coming, because there are a number of matters affecting Indians in that district of which a member of this house is, naturally, aware.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am sure there was nothing intentional about this omission, and that it was an oversight. We will be glad to take what has been said into consideration for the future.
In the course of the discussion one or two questions were asked to which I am able now to give specific replies.
I should like, first of all, to deal with some questions which were raised by the hon. member for Selkirk this morning. The hon. gentleman asked me some specific questions with regard to the Berens river project of cutting pulpwood. I am able to give him two specific answers. He asked me how much pulpwood was cut in 1956 and 1957. In 1956, 1,167 cords were cut, and in 1957, 3,648 cords were cut. The second question was: how many cords were hauled? The answer is: 861 in 1955-56, and 306 in 1956-57, making a total of 1,167 cords.
In 1957, 2,554 cords were hauled. With respect to the other questions as to how much was paid for the haulage and with regard to the barges with which there were some difficulties, I am not able to give any final answer as these matters are still a subject of negotiation with those concerned.


William Scottie Bryce: Will you not have the information later?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not think I will be able to give it until the negotiations are concluded, but as soon as the negotiations are concluded we will be prepared to make the information available.
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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
The hon. gentleman asked about a brief which was submitted in 1956. I understand it has been answered in general and the points not answered are still under consideration. With regard to some of the other briefs to which he referred, I have to say that we do not recall and in the interval have not been able to lay our hands on the specific briefs but we will look for them and if they have not already been dealt with or replied to we shall be glad to do so.
As to the question of the hospital on the Split lake reserve, I have to reply that this is a matter for health and welfare, which I will discuss with my colleague in that department, and I hope we can produce a satisfactory solution. With respect to the question of the road at Norway House, there were some suggestions made by the hon. gentleman with respect to which I would not at the moment be able to say that I am in agreement with him, but we shall be glad to look into the whole question of providing the labour to enable this road to be built.
I have answered the question of the hon. member for New Westminster as to how much we pay provincial school boards. With regard to the question of fishing rights as they affect the Langley band, I can say that the general position is that the Indians' right of individual fishing continues and there can be no interference with their right to catch fish for their personal use. However, as far as commercial fishing rights are concerned, the general position is that they have to abide by the same rules as apply to commercial fishermen. We shall, however, look into the position of the Langley band regarding the reopening of commercial fishing in that area, and we are in constant contact with the Department of Fisheries on this and similar problems. The hon. gentleman will also appreciate, of course, that the fisheries on the Fraser river are under the over-all control of the international Pacific sockeye salmon commission, which creates an additional complication.
We shall also examine the question of the availability of funds in the revolving loan fund to meet the problem facing Indians in buying the kind of boat with which they can go to sea and fish if it is found that they cannot obtain rights for commercial fishing on the river because of the closure to which the hon. gentleman referred.
I should like very much to congratulate the hon. member for the Yukon on his maiden speech this afternoon in which he gave a comprehensive and constructive outline of the problems of the Indians in the Yukon. The hon. member suggested that the problems of the Indians there are far greater than they


are elsewhere. I will not quarrel with him in what he said. We have problems in connection with Indian welfare all across the country and we hope to deal with them as they exist without particular favouritism for one area as against another. But where we find a problem it is our intention to deal with it just as rapidly as possible. I might point out to him that there is as much money spent on education of the Indians of the Yukon in proportion to the population of the Yukon as is spent elsewhere.
With regard to the acquisition of land at Whitehorse for the joint school, I am glad to be able to tell him that the matter has been discussed with the Indians and that funds are being requested in the amount of $150,000 for the purposes of acquisition of land, initial construction and other things required to get on with the provision of elementary and high school facilities at Whitehorse.
As to the question of the wolf bounty and caribou survival, this is a matter of concern primarily, I think, of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, and I am glad to be able to say that we are already carrying on discussions with that department, particularly with regard to the question of the caribou herds. I am also glad to be able to advise the hon. gentleman that the direction of Indian affairs will visit the Yukon territory this coming summer.
To turn to the remarks of the hon. member for Dauphin, I have already dealt generally with the question of the provision of housing for Indians in Manitoba and the speed up of the program to provide winter employment. I am glad to be able to tell him that a survey is being made in Manitoba by the provincial government of the condition of the Indians, and we are cooperating with that government in that survey. The hon. gentleman did refer specifically to the question of financial help to Indians to enable them to set up forestry co-operatives. I mentioned the revolving fund before. It is possible that we might be able to do something in this connection and if he will place his specific suggestions before the department we will be glad indeed to entertain them. I am also advised that one of the four placement officers I have referred to is stationed in Winnipeg.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: In order to clarify the matter of the revolving fund, can the minister give an example as to the basis upon which an advance is made from that fund, or any other fund, that may be available for the purpose of capital expenditure in setting up a cooperative industry?


Mr. Fulion:: Perhaps the hon. gentleman might raise that question when we get to vote 76, as I will have the details before me at that time. The hon. member for Fraser Valley raised some questions, some of which have been dealt with in my general survey and others of which were specific. With regard to the mosquito spraying, we will have another look at that matter, but I am sure he will appreciate that, with the limited funds at our disposal, our first responsibility is to spend them for the benefit of the Indians. We appreciate that there is a large area on the reserve on which mosquitoes breed which bother other inhabitants, but we do feel that we should keep our expenditures in line with the benefits to be derived by the Indians from the program under way. However, we will have another look at the request because I realize the seriousness of the situation.


Frederick George Hahn: Is that a mathematical formula?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The hon. gentleman asks if a mathematical formula is used. It is not mathematical but is the best estimate we can make of the proportionate benefit to be derived by the Indians in relation to the benefit to be derived by the white citizens from the spraying program.
With respect to the contract for skim milk,
I looked into this matter when it was drawn to my attention and I found that, as a matter of economy and saving, there was one contract let for the supplying of skim milk to the Indian schools all across Canada.
Tenders were invited, I understand, and the milk producers association referred to by the hon. gentleman did not submit a tender because it was one contract and was apparently of no interest to that concern. For that reason, I did instruct the departmental officials to look at this matter again and unless some other factors occur to me which have not yet been laid before me, it is our intention, when the contract expires and we have to renegotiate for the supply of skim milk, to advertize for tenders on a regional basis.
The hon. member for Kootenay West, in his usual sympathetic and challenging fashion, raised a problem concerning the provision of a monument for the Arrow Lakes Indian band. He suggested we co-operate with the British Columbia government and build this monument at the junction of the Columbia and Kootenay rivers in memory of this band and of the white pioneers who first crossed the Columbia river at that point. We would be glad to look into this. I think the hon. gentleman will realize that before we can ask for a separate fund to be made available from dominion government sources, it would
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration be necessary to obtain the approval of the historic sites and monuments board. If we had funds available within our departmental appropriations, we might be able to consider the project without reference to that particular body. The fact is that we have already turned over to the British Columbia government the remainder of the band funds which was left on hand at the time the last member of the band died. Therefore, we have no funds and we cannot proceed without the approval of that board.
We would be glad, however, to take the matter up with them and to discuss the question with the provincial government. If the provincial government feels that, having received the remainder of the band funds, they are able to make these funds available, that might be a solution to the problem.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: If the minister would not mind permitting a comment, I would say that if the minister is kind enough to do that, I know there is considerable support in our district amongst the pioneer organizations and others. We shall do the best we can to urge the local point of view because I think it would make a very appropriate centennial project for that area.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am sure that the hon. gentleman, with his usual persuasiveness, will be able to help out the local and other authorities.


William Scottie Bryce: I asked the minister one question to which I have not had an answer. Could we have the co-operation of the department in the establishment of a higher grade school at Norway House? This is something that should be done right away to benefit the pupils who are coming on there now.


James Ross Fulton: I am advised that is a matter that the department has on the agenda at the moment, realizing the problem in that connection. One of the difficulties, I am informed, is getting the students available and ready for the school. This is a matter which is regarded as urgent and is receiving attention at the present time.


William Scottie Bryce: I am sure that the people of the area will appreciate the co-operation of your officers and yourself in getting that established.


James Ross Fulton: I hope we shall be able to report progress the next time we meet on a similar occasion to this one. I hope I have dealt with the majority of the problems raised.
There was one matter raised, however, by the hon. member for Terrebonne concerning

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration an area in his province which is of importance because there is a road through it connecting two main highways leading into the Laurentian area.
(Translation):
In answer to the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Raymond), may I say that the reservation to which he referred is timber land, or an area of wood lots which belongs to the Caughnawaga Indians. We have received no representations whatever with regard to the problem he brought to our notice, but we will take note of them. I wish to assure the hon. member that we will give the matter active consideration.
(Text):
If there are other specific questions, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that I might deal with them on the other items dealing with the various activities of the branch.


Mr. Campbell (The Batllefords):: The
minister was discussing housing _ a few minutes ago, but I did not like to interrupt him. What provision is being made for housing this year in the Battlefords agency?


Edmund Davie Fulton: May I ask if the hon. gentleman would wait until we come to the welfare and construction item, and I shall be able to answer these specific questions on that item.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I think this question should be dealt with under the administration item. I would have asked it earlier, but another hon. member got the floor. I should like to inquire about a matter relating to the visits by the director or deputy minister to the various agencies. Prior to these visits being made, are the bands or the chief counsellors advised of the date of the visit as well as the Indian superintendent?


James Ross Fulton: Yes, and I am informed that the bands elect their own representatives to attend the meetings.


John Horne Blackmore: I wonder whether the
minister would tell us the results of his investigation concerning oil wells being built on Indian reserves?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am sorry I neglected to
answer that question earlier. We have recently revised the oil and gas regulations applicable to Indian reserves. I am able to advise the hon. gentleman that on the Blood reserve, as on every other reserve where oil or gas wells are discovered, the Indians derive the benefit of every cent which is paid for permits, leases or royalties for oil or gas production. They are also in possession of information concerning the amount of revenue derived because we send them monthly statements of the revenue received.

The process is that when an application is made for exploration and development of oil or gas on an Indian reserve, the Indians are asked to surrender the land. They approve the terms of surrender for permit, lease and royalty in accordance with the regulations. The oil and gas regulations, which we have recently revised, are based on the pattern of provincial regulations in order that we may have, so far as possible, a standard pattern throughout the country. We believe that under these regulations we get, on behalf of the Indians, the maximum revenues available.


John Horne Blackmore: Are the sums which are due the Indians sent out to the Indian bands or the band council so that they have ready access to them, or are they kept in Ottawa?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The money is paid into the band fund in Ottawa. Statements are sent monthly of the moneys received and the distribution of the revenue is made in accordance with the general provisions for the distribution of band funds.


John Horne Blackmore: What was the finding of the minister in respect of the cost of hospitalization of the Blood Indians in case they were unable to raise the money themselves?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I have to apologize to the hon. member because I was not able to get in touch with my colleague, the Minister of National Health and Welfare, during the recess. If the hon. member would pursue that matter with my colleague, I am quite certain he will be given a satisfactory answer.


Ernest George Hansell: I am sure we thank the minister for the way he has answered these questions. However, I believe he has missed a small question I asked him just before noon concerning the rights of Indians to hunt, either on their reserve or outside of their reserve, and whether they can hunt out of season? What is being done in respect of the complaints I have made to him that animals, after being shot, were left to suffer?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am informed that Indians, at least in the province from which my hon. friend comes, cannot hunt off a reserve, except on unoccupied crown lands, at any time except for food for their own personal use. With regard to the question of what to do about their wounding of animals and leaving them, as my hon. friend appreciates this is a difficult problem. However, I understand that the Indians would be subject to whatever might be the local laws in that regard to the same extent as the white citizens might be.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall vote 72 carry?


John Hornby Harrison: Before the item carries I
should like to commend the minister for his warm support for residential schools for

Indians. I think he indicated that this type of school has a permanent place in Indian affairs for the future. Certainly it is the only way in which to educate Indian children in the furthermost northern parts of our country. These people move around in the pursuit of food and in harvesting their crop of furs. There is no possible way of educating children on safaris of this kind.
I do not think he indicated to me whether additional facilities were going to be provided in this respect at Beauval.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am advised that it was not possible to reach a decision this year to make additional funds available for that school but that the matter is marked for consideration in the fiscal year 1958-59.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian agencies-
73. Operation and maintenance, $2,890,767.
Charles Benjamin Howard: Before we go too far into this I should like to say a few words. I expect this would be the place to raise the matter. I would preface my remarks by saying that on January 5, 1948, the Kitimat band presented a petition, as I expect it would be called, to the then joint parliamentary committee on the Indian Act and Indian affairs. In this petition the Kitimat band requested that their band be placed under the jurisdiction of the Prince Rupert agency instead of, as it was then and still is, under the jurisdiction of the Bella Coola agency. The reason for the request is that, especially now that there is road and railroad transportation between Kitimat and Terrace, a distance of 40 miles and again to Prince Rupert, a distance of 100 miles, there is as ready access between Prince Rupert and where the Terrace and Kitimat bands are now as there is between those points and where the Bella Coola agency is.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Did the hon. gentleman say that a petition was sent in, in January of this year?


Charles Benjamin Howard: No. I am sorry but probably I was not too clear on that point. This was on January 5, 1948. That was the date when it was presented to the Senate and House of Commons committee which travelled through the country in 1946, 1947 and 1948, dealing with Indian affairs generally. I doubt whether anything has been done with it since then. I do not know whether that committee reported or made any recommendations on the matter.


James Ross Fulton: I am just guessing here, but I imagine it was felt that it was not physically possible to be dealt with in 1948, when it was presented. It is quite possible it might even have been lost sight of. I am grateful to the
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration hon. gentleman for bringing the matter to our attention. Now that there is rail and road communication, as he points out, it will certainly be proper to have another look at the matter. We shall see whether we can resurrect it.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I might say that I discussed this matter in a general way with two or three members of the band council the last time I was there, and they had no knowledge of it because they were new councillors. However, they said, "Sure, it is a good idea".


James Ross Fulton: It might be just as well, if the hon. member is so inclined the next time he is there, for him to raise it as a specific matter and ascertain afresh the views of the band and their council.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I will write them a letter tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Reserves and trusts-
75. Operation and maintenance, $316,037.
Charles Benjamin Howard: I have another question I should like to direct to the minister. It relates to the amounts to the credit of the various bands in the band fund. I expect it might come under this item.


James Ross Fulton: I am sorry but I did not hear the hon. member's question.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I wonder whether the question of band funds would come under this vote, reserves and trusts?


James Ross Fulton: Yes; it would. Before the hon. member proceeds, I wonder whether I might supplement the information I gave a moment ago with regard to oil contract revenues. I understand that is the figure for both gas and oil revenue from sales, rentals and royalties. Total receipts for 195657, accruing to Indians, were $2,214,550.06 and for 1957-58, to November 30, 1957, were $1,869,047.99.


Ernest John Campbell: There is one matter I should like to bring to the minister's attention in connection with trust funds, if he is listening now. Why is it that on a reserve which has a trust fund, even though it might not amount to very much, when houses are built on that particular reserve they are charged to band account while on other reserves which have no band funds the Indians get their houses free?


James Ross Fulton: The reason for that is that the general principle is where the Indians have band funds and desire houses, it seems desirable that they should determine themselves what houses shall be built and for whom, with funds at their own disposal. But where it is found in a reserve where

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration there is no band fund or where the band funds are not sufficient to meet the local requirements, those funds are made available under the welfare vote for the provision of what is called welfare housing on a basis determined by the department in accordance with the needs of individual Indians concerned.


Ernest John Campbell: I do not
know whether the minister has available the figures for, say, the Thunderchild Indian reserve in Saskatchewan? They had a very considerable band fund 20 years ago. That band fund has been diminishing at a very rapid rate. The Indians are very much concerned that anything they get in the way of houses or relief is charged up to band funds, whereas the reserves alongside of them that have no band funds get all these things free.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am sorry to be compelled to inform the hon. gentleman under detailed expenditures we do not have the figures broken down by bands.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Are the individual bands or councils in each band advised from time to time with some regularity as to the amount in their particular band fund that is held in trust.


Edmund Davie Fulton: They are advised monthly.


Charles Benjamin Howard: In that regard, Mr. Chairman, I might say that I have had a number of requests from bands through chief councillors about this question of the amount of money in band funds and they have extended over the last three or four years. From time to time they have wanted to know how much money was in the band fund, and we have had to take the occasion to put questions on the order paper asking what amount is in it. That has happened on two occasions.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am advised that the system was started last summer.


Charles Benjamin Howard: Oh, I see.


Edmund Davie Fulton: And I am informed it is now of universal application across Canada. There will no doubt be little breakdowns here and there but it is going to be pretty satisfactory.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare of Indians-
76. Operation and maintenance, $3,268,951.
Charles Benjamin Howard: I would like to say I appreciate very much the fact the minister agrees that the amount of food relief is inadequate and I am glad that some steps are being taken to revise this system. I believe it was yesterday, however, that the minister replied to some general comments under the administration vote of this department and he pointed


out that the relief in kind was being supplemented by relief in cash. I wonder whether he could say how much cash and so on?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I should have risen this morning on a question of privilege, and I am glad the hon. gentleman has brought this matter to my attention because I inadvertently misled the committee last night. When I said that we were concerned with the ration scale I said that I should point out in fairness, that the ration scale is supplemented in many cases, if not most, by the cash relief program under which Indians are also paid cash and allowed to make their own purchases from that. I was in error; I was a little over-enthusiastic. The cash relief program has been started on an experimental basis with a provision in the 1957-58 estimates of $100,000 and the explanation of this vote is as follows. It is proposed to introduce in 1957-58, cash payments on an experimental basis to some of the Indian population in need of relief by way of food, clothing, fuel and other miscellaneous items. This is to be done in the following manner. Temporary relief recipients will have cheques issued through spending programs maintained in agency offices; permanent relief recipients, that is to say, those in the following categories, crippled, not eligible for disabled persons' allowances, prematurely aged, widows, abandoned mothers of minor children who cannot qualify under the provincial mothers' allowance act, those categories will receive cheques issued by the cheque disbursement division of finance.
This is an experimental program to try to see what prospects there are of substituting for relief in kind a system of cash payments so that the Indians will eventually no longer feel they are different from white recipients of relief. They will not be stigmatized by having to take a grocery order slip into the grocery store and be handed out something from a shelf, which obviously characterizes them as people in receipt of charity, relief, or whatever you want to call it; whereas white citizens in receipt of relief have a cheque paid to them and they can spend it anywhere without anyone knowing whether they are spending their own money or money provided to them through a relief agency.
This is an experiment and we hope that it will show us and will show the Indians that we can eventually bring them to the same standard in this respect as the white people.


Charles Benjamin Howard: I was just wondering whether this relief cash will be substantially the same as relief under the municipal or provincial government structures.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is the intention. The
places where this experiment is being carried out are St. Regis, Sault Ste. Marie, Norway House, Duck Lake and Edmonton.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I had intended to ask the
minister a question because I was sure he was in error yesterday. I had a little difficulty in persuading the treasury board that this experiment should be undertaken and I was wondering whether the minister could tell us if the indications are that it is working out well?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, as far as I know it is working out very well, in fact so well that we hope to be able to persuade the treasury board to provide an increased amount for next year.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I hope so.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: These places the minister mentioned where this experiment is being carried out did not, I think, include any places in British Columbia. Is that correct?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am afraid that I am advised, to my astonishment, that it was felt that the places I have mentioned were more suitable for the purpose of a pilot project than was any place in British Columbia. I am advised it might be extended to British Columbia in the coming fiscal year.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: While we are on this point, could the minister clarify whether in addition to the specific areas he has mentioned, it might be extended to the point where in all agencies individuals to whom payment is made could be selected. In other words, would it be possible that individuals could be used as pilots in a broader area? I had in mind the Alberni agency in my own constituency, where I imagine there are still a number of places where such a plan might not work out very well at the outset but there might be a number of individuals who could be used as [DOT]pilot cases. In such cases it might work out very well, and this would lead the way so that it might eventually become a matter of general application. I mention Alberni because in that agency are some of the more isolated Indian settlements on the coast.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It is going to be extended, Mr. Chairman, but the hon. gentleman will appreciate that $100,000 as an initial experiment is pretty limited, and that we have to confine ourselves as to areas which can be used for the purpose of such an experiment. This is a pilot project. It will be extended, and I am sure it will be successful. As soon as possible it will be given universal application.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I would like to take advantage of the minister's suggestion that I raise the question of the revolving fund under this item. I would like to say that I appreciate the help he is giving with respect to the proposed housing program which he intends to carry out, and I am sure it will be welcome, but I would like to mention two or three of the things upon which I would like information. I am sure it would be useful to have these on the record.
Firstly, I would like him to define the revolving fund as clearly as he can so that we will know exactly what he means by this term. Secondly, I would like him to tell us whether there are any other funds which could be made available for the purpose of making advances for the establishing of industry on Indian reserves and also on what basis, or from what sources funds could be made available; whether they are repayable, and if so on what terms, and over what period of time. I would also like him to tell us whether there are any officials or officers of the Indian department who specialize in this type of work; that is, in helping the Indians themselves and setting up and organizing their local industry and giving them technical knowledge and assistance. These are not specific questions requiring specific answers but are simply laying the groundwork of the type of thing I-and I am sure hon. members of the committee-would like to know about the revolving fund.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, the provision for the revolving fund is found in section 69 of the Indian Act which provides:
The Minister of Finance may from time to time advance to the minister-
Of this department-
-out of the consolidated revenue fund such sums of money as the minister may require to enable him'-
And then are specified in subsections the types of purposes for which loans may be authorized. One which is close to what has been mentioned here earlier is subsection (b) which reads:
-to expend or to lend money for the carrying out of co-operative projects on behalf of Indians.
The procedure is that the Indians have to submit their proposal through the agent or the Indian superintendent to the department, and if it is felt to be either economically sound, useful in training Indians in industrial or commercial projects, or that it has a chance of economic success-and I cannot be strictly categorical as to these features-then it will be approved. Each project is examined on its own merits.
I placed on Hansard earlier a table showing the number of loans that have been made

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration since the fund was established and the types of enterprises for which they have been authorized.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I thank the minister for that information. Would he supplement it by following up the other questions I raised. For example, on what basis is a loan made? What are the terms? Are these loans repayable? If so, is there a laid down formula or is it left in each individual case to negotiation with the band as to what the terms will be?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am informed that the usual term is five years at 5 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
79. Fur conservation, $320,363.
Mr. Her ridge: Mr. Chairman, I want to bring to the minister's attention the fact that this Arrow Lake Indian band acquired the rights to a trap line in the Monashee mountain range. As a matter of fact, it is their only trap line existing in the Selkirk mountains or the Monashee mountains, the Selkirks being on the east side of the Columbia river and the Monashees being on the west side of the Columbia river, near Kootenay and the Okanagan boundary. The last survivor of this band died some years ago I understand and there was some relationship through intermarriage between the Arrow Lake band and the Kootenay band. Because of the blood relationship, I understand that this trap line has been kept in the hands of the Indians, the title to which has been maintained by the annual visit of an Indian from the Kootenay band living around Creston. I understand there is some confusion over the matter. The Indian affairs branch has an agency at Cranbrook and one at Vernon, but I think this is one of those small matters that is very inconvenient for their attention. However, I do ask the minister to have the question looked into, because I believe it is only right that the Indians in the area should retain title to the trap line if at all possible.
Edmund Davie Fulton: I am informed by the officials that the matter must not have assumed major proportions because they do not recall its ever having been referred to them, but we will make a note and look into it with a sympathetic inclination toward the point of view of the hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
80- Administration, operation and maintenance, $11,471,997.
Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Chairman, I have some questions I should like to ask the minister under vote No. 80. My particular interest at

this time relates to the question of the residential schools and in particular to the item listed as per capita grants as found at page 168, under the details of the estimates. I am wondering whether the minister could explain just what is covered under the heading "Per Capita Grants". For example, am I correct in assuming that no part of the cost of providing instruction is included in that amount, and that the payments for instruction or instructors is covered under the details ahead of that? Would the minister outline generally what is covered by the item $4,172,003 for per capita grants?


Edmund Davie Fulton: First of all I should like to say that this item provides for the payment of per capita grants to 67 residential schools. The rates are based on the facilities provided, geographical location, and type and size of building. The costs of operation vary according to the above factors. I could give the hon. gentleman a breakdown by provinces but the sort of things that would be covered, or are intended to be covered in the per capita grants, are as outlined in the general summary I have just given.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Am I correct in understanding that the term "per capita" means a grant of so much for each pupil resident in the school?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes, that is correct and I could give this additional information. The grants are paid quarterly to the school managements, and out of the grants the schools are expected to provide clothing, fuel, food and other requirements for the operation of the schools, and salaries of cooks, janitors, engineers, firemen, seamstresses, disciplinarians and farmers. As I understand the system, each school makes an estimate of what is going to be required under these headings for the operation of the school for the year and then discusses with us the number of pupils to be accommodated at the school for the year and as a result of negotiation we arrive at a per capita grant to meet the costs of operation.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I understood the minister to say that the amount of the grant varies from school to school according to its location?


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is correct, in accordance with the different costs as they vary between geographic locations of the schools. In order not to mislead the committee I should say that the system of per capita grants is now under review.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: No, Mr. Chairman. I have not been making any speeches. I have a few simple questions to ask the minister on this point. Am I correct in understanding that the entire cost of operating the schools for the

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
purposes which the minister enumerated is intended to be covered by the amount of the per capita grants or are the schools expected to find other sources of revenue?


Edmund Davie Fulton: For the purposes I have
enumerated the costs are expected to be covered by the per capita grants. I think that in my rapid reading, in giving the previous answer, I omitted the item "salaries of teachers for church-owned schools". Thus, where there is a church-owned school, the salaries of teachers are provided under the per capita grant.


Some hon. Members:: Ten o'clock.


Mr, Barnett:: Some hon. members are suggesting that 1 call it ten o'clock, Mr. Chairman.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, in order to facilitate the passage of some of the estimates of my hon. friend, we on this side of the house, subject of course to the approval of other hon. gentlemen, would be willing to sit for a few minutes after ten o'clock.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, out of respect for the staff who are working these long hours, I would suggest that if we continue to sit we do so for only a few minutes.


James Sinclair: How do you define "few"?


Thomas Speakman Barnett: If I am the only member desiring to raise the point under this item I am willing to carry on. What I have in mind to ask would take only a few minutes.
I should like to ask the minister whether in submitting estimates to the department of the amount required under this per capita grant system the schools submit to the department for approval the salaries they propose to pay to such people as cooks and operating staff in the schools. Does the department have a "say" with regard to what those wages should be, what hours of work should be worked and so on, or do these matters lie exclusively within the jurisdiction of the management of the schools?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am informed we do not go into the matter in that way. The authorities tell us the actual salaries they pay, and we accept their word for it, subject to general overall discussions. We do not enter into detailed supervision of the administration. We are not the employers in that sense.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: The reason I raise this question is that I have had some rather serious complaints laid before me in connection with the hours, wages and working conditions of some of the people employed in certain of the schools, and I wanted, first of all, to establish responsibility for these matters. Are
they questions which could be properly brought to the attention of the Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I mentioned a moment ago that the system of per capita grants is under review, and while I cannot enter into too much detail at the moment, because the matter is still being negotiated with the various religious authorities, I may say that it was with such things as this in mind that a new system was suggested. I do not want to say it was only because of that, but it was because we felt we should be given some idea of what the salaries were, and what the hours and terms of work were, in order, if you like, to justify the amount we were asked to pay, that we suggested to the authorities a division of the system of per capita grants and the placing of it on another basis altogether. That arrangement is under negotiation now with the religious authorities. It would be in fairly complete substitution for the system I have just outlined, and it would eliminate some of the difficulties the hon. member has mentioned.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I am very glad to hear the minister has this matter under review, because I believe there are certain conditions which require correction in the general area to which I have referred. Had the minister not indicated that this review was being undertaken I might have been tempted to argue that some different system should be introduced in order that the wages being paid in certain instances might be brought more closely into line with the prevailing rate principle which is in effect in certain other departments.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
SI. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $5,785,150.
Alexander Bell Patterson: Mr. Chairman, in this particular item there are two rather substantial allocations for the construction or acquisition of buildings under day schools amounting to over $3 million; and under residential schools -construction or acquisition of buildings- to $1,985,000. I wonder whether we could have a breakdown of the projects undertaken under those two headings?


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of questions that I, too, wish to ask under this vote. Since it is now ten minutes after ten, may I call it ten o'clock?
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.
4144	HOUSE OF
Business of the House BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the
leader of the house what the business is for tomorrow?


Howard Charles Green: Tomorrow we will proceed with the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, and then with the legislation estimates, public works, health and welfare, finance, and fisheries.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask what the business will be for Monday?


Howard Charles Green: Any business on Monday would have to be either item No. 4-the closure order-or possibly item No. 3, with regard to additional judges, though I believe the intention would be to provide for only one additional county court judge for Ontario; or, it may be, a motion to go into supply. If we did that, we would add other departments; probably finish up post office and the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and take defence production and trade and commerce.


Lionel Chevrier: Does the leader of the house not know now which of these three or four items he has just mentioned is likely to come up on Monday? After all, if it is a motion to go into supply I take it it is only fair to the opposition to let us know at least on Friday whether such a motion is likely to come up on Monday.


Howard Charles Green: I have outlined to the house what the business will be on Monday, and I do not think I can go any farther.


Harold Edward Winch: If British Columbia members can be here, so can you.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the leader of the house a question? Is he aware of the fact that the government leader in the other place indicated that

it was his thought that some supply bills might go over there from this place tomorrow, and that the other place was being asked to meet tomorrow for that purpose? Has the government any intention of producing a supply bill tomorrow based on such resolutions as have been passed at today's sitting, and, if not, what was Senator Haig talking about in the other place?


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member knows we are not supposed to discuss what takes place in the other place.


Lionel Chevrier: May I ask another question? In view of the statement the leader of the house has made on more than one occasion that the house would terminate its business today, is he able to indicate now when the end of the session will come?


Howard Charles Green: I am now quite sure that we are not going to terminate the business today.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the leader of the house consider the seriousness of the question as to what was meant by the words used by the government leader in the other place? After all, he is a member of the cabinet, as is the hon. gentleman. Will the house leader also say whether it was significant that he used the subjunctive mood when he referred a minute ago to Monday?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I shall be very glad to take the hon. member's suggestion into consideration. He will have heard what I said a few moments earlier. I have nothing to add to that statement.


[Stage Direction]
It being thirteen minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to the special order of the house passed on December 2, 1957.