1958-07-21

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the house I should like to make a statement with regard to the international situation.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the Prime Minister leave to proceed with the statement?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John George Diefenbaker: As I said in the house on Saturday, the United Nations security council failed at its last meeting to adopt any of the three resolutions which were before it concerning the situation in Lebanon and Jordan. The Secretary of State for External Affairs returned to Ottawa on Saturday evening and over the week end he reported on his discussions with the British foreign secretary, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd; the Secretary of State of the United States, Mr. Dulles; Mr. Ham-marskjold and others.
I know that members of the house will appreciate the fact that it would not be fitting or helpful at this very anxious time to disclose the views expressed in those discussions. I should add, relative to the answer I gave on Saturday last to a question asked by the Leader of the Opposition, that the Secretary of State for External Affairs made known in his discussions the opinion of the Canadian government that no military activity should be undertaken by any nation in any place beyond Jordan and Lebanon.
In addition, the week end has witnessed the publication of a Soviet proposal on the Middle East, namely a proposal for a meeting of the heads of government of the United States, the United Kingdom, France, India and the U.S.S.R., with the participation of the Secretary General of the United Nations. This initiative came against the background of Soviet and Bulgarian troop manoeuvres on their southern borders.
I need hardly tell the house that, the situation having already reached critical proportions, such a proposal is bound to have a considerable impact on the thinking of people everywhere.
Much of the language in which the Soviet invitation is couched is so provocative in tone that it tends to add yet another complicating
factor at an already very serious moment in world affairs by tempting the rejection of the invitation on the ground of its not being genuine. Tensions have, however, reached such a stage that every opportunity should be explored to discuss the causes of tension in the interests of heading off the possibility of war.
President Eisenhower has said more than once that he is ready to meet with the Soviet leaders if a meeting would contribute to the cause of peace. As I stated in this house last November, I still believe that no nation should or dare shut the door on any matter that offers the prospect of any solution or even a diminution of international tensions. In view of the recent developments in the Middle East I believe that the problem of that region should be discussed at the highest level, and that such talks should be held as soon as possible because of the present perilous situation, the urgency of which has been so greatly intensified by the developments of the last few days.
In this very explosive situation, in the interests of assuring that the international temperature be not increased, the Canadian government would expect that the status quo be maintained in the region of the Middle East, and would welcome from all the countries concerned assurances such as those which were given by Prime Minister Macmillan in respect of Iraq in the House of Commons at Westminster on July 17, in particular that all members of NATO will exercise the greatest caution in national action which might involve the alliance as a whole. In the meantime we should all continue to co-operate in the discussions now being carried on at the United Nations, having as their objective the solution of those problems of which the United Nations is now completely seized.
The council meets again today to consider a compromise Japanese proposal on Lebanon, and for the purpose of the record I think I should refer to that motion, which is as follows:
1.	The security council, having heard the charges of the representative of Lebanon concerning the interference of the U.A.R. in the internal affairs of Lebanon and the reply of the U.A.R., invites the UNOGIL to continue to develop its activities pursuant to the security council resolution of June 11, 1958;
2.	Requests the secretary general to make arrangements forthwith for such measures in addition to those envisaged in the resolution of June 11, 1958, as he may consider necessary in the light of the

External Affairs-Middle East present crisis with a view to enabling the United Nations to fulfil the general purposes established in that resolution and which will, in accordance with the charter, serve to ensure the territorial integrity and political independence of Lebanon so as to make possible the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Lebanon;
3.	Requests the secretary general to report to the security council on the arrangements made;
4.	Calls upon the governments concerned to co-operate fully in the implementation of this resolution.
I think Canadians will all agree that during the last few days the Secretary of State for External Affairs, both in Washington and New York, has earned for this country the tribute of representatives of other countries as a result of the skill and ability he has shown during the discussions in both those cities.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


John George Diefenbaker: After discussing the whole situation with him at great length yesterday I suggested that, while he has responsibilities in the house, it might be well for him to go to New York to take personal charge of the Canadian delegation during the debate before the security council.
With regard to the present I would like to go further than I am able to go, but I would like to tell the house and the country that this government, I feel with the approval of the Canadian people as a whole, is doing everything it possibly can to bring about an agreement between the nations of the free world whereby constructive action may be taken promptly. I do not want to overemphasize the gravity of the situation, but at the same time I do not want to understate it. For that reason I want the house and the country to know that there are no hours today in so far as the Secretary of State for External Affairs, myself and other members of the cabinet are concerned. We are trying to do our part, as a country which has no direct interest, to bring about a solution which is reasonable, in accordance with the principles laid down in the United Nations charter and within the ambit of that charter.
Over the week end I personally addressed urgent messages to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, to the Prime Minister of India and to President Eisenhower, suggesting that there be a positive and immediate response to the Khrushchev message. The suggestions made are now being considered in the various capitals as well as, I hope, in the NATO council in New York.
It would be less than proper to spell out those suggestions, but I can say this: that in the light of what I said earlier we believe that a meeting is necessary at top level, and I feel, too, that the United Nations security council in session offers possibilities on which I will not elaborate at this time.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the house will have heard with great interest and, I think, understanding, the statement of the Prime Minister on a situation which in the words of the Secretary of State for External Affairs *-and I do not think it was an overstatement-is grave, though not, as he put it, critical.
I can speak only for hon. members of my own party, but we certainly hope to give the Prime Minister, the government and particularly the Secretary of State for External Affairs, full support in all the efforts they are making for peace and stability in the Middle East on behalf of a country which is a member of the United Nations, because as signatories to the United Nations charter we have all of us obligations for furthering peace and stability in the world.
I can appreciate the pressure both physical and mental under which the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for External Affairs and their colleagues are working at this time, having had some experience with that kind of pressure myself. I entirely agree with the Prime Minister in the statement he has made and the suggestion, which I understand the government has made to other governments perhaps even more directly concerned, that no action should be taken by the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States in present circumstances beyond the borders of Lebanon and Jordan; that they should do what they can to discourage action of that kind from any other quarter, and that they should lend their weight to any policy which would establish the status quo for the time being in this area.
A new development occurred over the week end in the invitation by the head of the Soviet government to the governments of the United Kingdom, the United States, France and India for a summit conference to deal with this particular matter and, as I understand it, to deal only with this particular matter. We have heard at this time with satisfaction that the Prime Minister has already indicated to three of these governments that, in the view of the Canadian government, they should adopt a positive approach to this invitation. He did not mention whether he had sent a message of the kind which he had suggested to London, Washington and New Delhi, to Paris as well, but I assume that has also been done.
In common with other hon. members of parliament I have been asked questions on this subject, and in reply to some of those questions I have said that in my own view

I think it would be most unwise for the three western powers to take a negative stand on Mr. Khrushchev's invitation to a conference. I added that I hoped the Canadian government was urging them not to give this invitation an unqualified refusal, and therefore I heard with pleasure, as I am sure other hon. members heard with pleasure, of the stand taken by the government.
There remains the question of how this invitation can be most effectively dealt with if it is not to be given an unqualified refusal. The Prime Minister was good enough this morning to give me some confidential information on developments, and I appreciate that very much. I indicated to him at that time that I hoped to be in a position this afternoon to ask him a question on this matter, and I confess that in that question I would have expressed my own view as to how this invitation might be dealt with. There will be no opportunity for such a question because orders of the day will not be reached, but perhaps because the Prime Minister has quite rightly brought up the matter I might indicate my own view as to how this particular matter could be treated in the present circumstances and at the present time, as it has to be dealt with quickly.
In view of the Soviet government's invitation for an immediate summit conference on the Middle East crisis, and in view of the reports we have observed in the press that the United Kingdom and United States governments might not find it possible to accept this invitation in the form in which it was extended-and I can certainly understand that in view of the language of the invitation -but in view also of the desirability of not turning down this invitation in any unconditional way, would it not be desirable for the Canadian member at the security council which is meeting at this moment to make a proposal to the effect that the security council should appoint a subcommittee of representatives of the United Kingdom, United States, France and the Soviet union, and by special invitation India, under the chairmanship of the Secretary General of the United Nations to consider ways and means of resolving the current Middle East crisis? This subcommittee could meet, and I hope would meet, immediately at a place to be determined by its chairman, the secretary general, and it could be suggested that the countries appointed to it be represented by their heads of government. That would ensure that the meeting in question would be at the top level of governmental representation, and it would also ensure that the meeting in question would be held under the auspices of the
External Affairs-Middle East United Nations and indeed under the chairmanship of the Secretary General of the United Nations.
In putting forward this proposal, Mr. Speaker, I realize that the Prime Minister has a great deal of information available to him which is not available to everyone, and he may have considerations in mind and there may be factors he knows about that bear on this proposal. But I should like to put it forward to him for the consideration of the government and possibly for consideration at the United Nations security council, in the hope that this might be a way of dealing with the invitation which would underline that our approach to these matters in the west is not negative, and which indeed might have some kind of constructive result which would assist in removing the shadow of fear and war that hangs over the world at the moment.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, we in this group are glad to note that the government is opposed to extending the political bonanza handed the Soviet union by certain actions taken outside the United Nations. We are also glad to hear of the government's support for summit talks, and the Prime Minister's request for an immediate and positive response to the Khrushchev invitation to those summit talks. We go right along with him; we think it is a most constructive approach to this most serious situation.
Once again, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this group I want to express our opposition to unilateral action and our continued support of work toward United Nations mediation. Our sincere hope is that mediation will soon result, in the near days ahead, in the announcement by the governments of Great Britain and the United States that they have withdrawn their troops from Lebanon and Jordan.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, first I do want to thank the Leader of the Opposition for the unity displayed at this very important phase of international difficulties. I welcome, and this government welcomes, any suggestions that come from him because of his experience, from which none of us will try at any time to detract.
This is a time when we must act positively. This is no time for stagnant thinking based on forms that may have been applicable in the past. It is equally no time for side issues and the making of generalizations that cannot have any effect other than not contributing to a solution of an immediate problem.

Proposed Legislation
The proposal made by the Leader of the Opposition is-and I do not want to spell out, as I said a while ago, the representations made in the personal messages I referred to earlier-very close to a suggestion I made and suggestions that are in mind and are now under consideration. I can assure not only the hon. gentleman but members of the house that every constructive proposal that any hon. member has to offer will be given the most careful and continuing examination.
There is a strength in our democracy and our parliamentary system, and that strength is that in times of difficulty we do not allow partisanship to separate us. We may have differing opinions on the means but never on the objectives. Again I emphasize the assurance that at this time, when a community of counsel is so necessary, the expression of viewpoints by hon. gentlemen will at all times receive the most complete examination, and out of a variety of suggestions one can often bring forth the epitome that will bring about a solution. I shall go no further than that at this time, but again I thank the house for the courtesy shown in making possible this short explanation this afternoon.


PRIME MINISTER NKRUMAH
John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ask leave of the house now to move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson):
That the address of the Prime Minister of Ghana, the Honourable Dr. Kwame Nkrumah, before the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons of Canada in the chamber of the House of Commons this day, together with the introductory and related speeches, be included in the House of Commons Debates and form part of the permanent records of this parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[For text of addresses above referred to, see appendix "B", pages 2514-18.]


John George Diefenbaker: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure respecting the development and improvement of the national capital region and in relation thereto-
1.	To provide for the constitution of a national capital commission and to repeal the Federal District Commission Act;

2.	To provide for the objects, purposes and powers of the commission; and
3.	To enact such financial provisions as may be necessary to accomplish the purposes of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. A. J. Brooks (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Children of War Dead (Education Assistance) Act so as to extend the benefits of the act to other classes of persons and to increase the allowance that may be paid in certain cases.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hon. Donald M. Fleming (Minister of Finance) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution, which has been recommended to the house by His Excellency:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Financial Administration Act to authorize the deletion from the accounts of obligations or debts due to Her Majesty or claims by Her Majesty that do not exceed twenty-five dollars; to clarify the circumstances in which special warrants signed by the governor general may be issued; to permit a crown corporation to establish a receiver general account with ministerial approval and to authorize the payment of interest on money placed to the credit of such an account; and to provide for certain consequential changes in connection with the administration of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 25-Mr. Mcllrailh:
For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the Prime Minister or the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and the students who are acting as guides at the Canadian pavilion of the Brussels universal and international exhibition, 1958.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Motion No. 26-Mr. Robichaud:
For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, and other documents exchanged from April 1, 1958 to date, between the federal government and the government of the province of Prince Edward Island and the potato growers' association of that

province, in connection with assistance under the agricultural prices stabilization act to the potato growers of Prince Edward Island.
Motion agreed to.

Mr. G. J. Mcllrailh (Ottawa West) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the advisability of establishing free trade between Canada and the Federation of the West Indies.
He said: In rising to present this motion for the approval of the house Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but feel that it is in some respects most appropriate that it should come forward for discussion today, because we have just concluded three days of discussion in committee of the whole on the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce. In addition, we just this morning had the honour of having before us in an unofficial way in this chamber the Prime Minister of the new member of the commonwealth, Ghana. I feel, therefore, it is appropriate in the light of those circumstances that this motion should come forward for debate, and I hope approval, today.
It will be seen from the order paper that this is the second appointed Monday for the discussion of private members' motions. I hope that at the conclusion of this day hon. members will feel that the discussion of this motion has been such as to be indicative of the real worth of private members' days, and that they will feel this is a useful contribution and a very proper use of that right of private members to bring matters before this house for debate.
At the outset, Mr. Speaker, I must confess to some difficulty in wording the motion. My concern is with the subject of trade, increasing our trade with the West Indies, but I wanted to get the motion forward in a way that would result not in a mere academic discussion of free trade, but rather in an effort to free trade to the greatest possible extent with this particular area. When I say "free trade to the greatest possible extent", I refer to not only matters like the customs tariff, which seems to be the traditional thing to discuss, but the matter of currency exchange restrictions, shipping and all the other restrictions that may be imposed on the exchange of goods between two countries.
At the outset of my remarks I might also express my own appreciation to the Minister of Trade and Commerce for having given this subject the attention he did in his remarks during the consideration of the estimates of trade and commerce. I was greatly pleased
Canada

West Indies Trade to hear him recognize the importance of the subject and deal with it in full recognition of that importance.
There is such a great abundance of material written about this subject within this last year or two that it seems difficult tc narrow it down to what to present to the house in the space of 40 minutes. Perhaps it is well for us to be specific and recognize that in our statistics on trade it is difficult to separate the trade figures of the Federation of the West Indies from the figures of the British Caribbean area. It is well if we recall to our minds that the federation about which I wish to speak includes specifically Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, the Leeward islands and the Windward Islands but excludes British Honduras, British Guiana and the Bahamas of the British Caribbean group.
It is well also to recall that the federated area is really responsible for approximately -and this is only a rough approximation- three quarters of our trade with the whole area. It is well also to recall that their constitution came into effect only on January 3 of this year and that they held their federal election on March 25 of this year. I think some hon. members will not find it difficult to recall that date because of its close proximity to a certain other event which took place in Canada a few days later. Then there was the inauguration of the federal legislature on April 22, 1958. I am sure the government indicated the significance they attached to that event by the team which they sent to represent Canada on that occasion.
In dealing with the subject in a more specific way, it can be said at once to me, if the motion is read in a strict and narrow way: Oh, you do not recognize the fact that the federation does not have legislative control over its foreign trade; they do not yet have a customs union. That is perfectly true, Mr. Speaker. The federation does not yet have a customs union, though there seems to be every indication that they are moving toward it. In any event a commission is examining that subject at the present time, and the best information I can get is that the report of that commission will be available within a matter of a few weeks or months, much in advance of the time that it was expected to be ready when the commission was set up.
It could also be said, on a narrow reading of the motion: Oh, you cannot deal with free trade between Canada and the Federation of the West Indies because they do not have control of their own foreign exchange. I am quite aware of that fact. I am aware of the fact that the United Kingdom still has control of the foreign exchange for the area, but I respectfully submit that that is only

Canada-West Indies Trade one more reason why we should be discussing this matter and examining it rather than withholding discussion of it.
The trade figures are rather interesting. The Minister of Trade and Commerce in his remarks indicated the importance of the trade of that area and I do not intend to elaborate very much on that point; but it is interesting to note that in 1936 our exports to the West Indies federated area amounted to $8,629,000 and our imports to some $13,305,000. In 1957 they had risen so that our commodity exports to that area amounted to $40,276,000 in value and our commodity imports amounted to some $58,430,000 in value. Of course, in addition there are other factors that would enter into an exchange of currency or balance of payments like the vast tourist business in the area from Canada and things like the presence of West Indies students in our universities in Canada.
Those figures will illustrate the importance of the trade in that area. But more particularly the products involved serve to indicate its importance to Canada, imports, as I assess the order of dollar importance, were sugar, bauxite and alumina, petroleum, molasses, rum, cocoa, coffee, spices and citrus fruits. Our exports were wheat flour, fish, textiles and manufactures, meat, tobacco, lumber, motor vehicles, milk, mixed feeds, boots and shoes, potatoes and a variety of manufactured articles.
From these products and the nature of the commodities exchanged it will be seen that the area is, I venture to suggest, complementary with respect to those products; that is, the products it has for export to us are as complementary to the products we have for export to that area as are those of any other area in the world. I do not know of any better example one could get of two areas where the commodities sought to be exchanged are more complementary to each other than are those of this area of the Federation of the West Indies and Canada.
That situation, of course, is easy to understand when one recalls the great differences in climate. It seems to me that this whole area is one in which we should naturally have a high interest for many reasons, among others the fact that for some 200 years now we have shared the same association with the British empire, now known as the commonwealth or the commonwealth and its antecedent form, whatever the terminology was, depending on what date you were talking about. This historical association has gone on in common between us for the order of 200 years, which is quite a long time in our history.
There is the naturally complementary nature of their production and our production.

Then there is this new matter we have in common, namely the gradual enlargement of their control of their own political destiny as indicated by the federation this year. Anyone who has regard to the development of political freedom within Canada and our own history in that respect I think must share a feeling of rejoicing and good will that the West Indies have now come together in their federation, in somewhat different form than we but none the less a distinctive step in their development and evolution.
Now I wish to deal with the trade itself. It is interesting that in this relatively small area which I consider to be of great importance we maintain at the present time two trade commissioners, one in Jamaica and one in Trinidad. It is also interesting that we have seen fit to take part in organizing two trade fairs, somewhat new in form, to take place in these two parts of the federation. These trade fairs of 1959 are rather significant, because so far as I know they are developing along a somewhat new pattern for Canada in that they are in the nature of joint enterprises between Canadian business and the government. I think the minister would agree with that description.
I have spoken about trade and I am aware of the usual difficulties with respect to this subject, but it seems to me there are some aspects of it which we could and should usefully discuss in this house. One of the suggestions I am going to make is with respect to the matter of substantially enlarging our activities in respect of trade in spite of the difficulties involved. There are two views abroad, one that there is a little too much optimism and the other that there is not sufficient optimism with regard to trade possibilities, but I believe with the optimists that a great deal can be done to enlarge our trade. I believe this involves imaginative and constructive steps on the part of the government, and that imaginative and constructive suggestions in this house are required in order to achieve this end.
In any discussion of a general nature in this house it is difficult to deal with the matter in detail, commodity by commodity, and I have been avoiding doing so because I think the proper way for the details to be dealt with is by the working groups in the Department of Trade and Commerce, who are thoroughly competent and have all the data readily available for that kind of consideration which is conducive to the best results. I believe, furthermore, that our function here is to indicate the political objective, and that what we are seeking to do is to set

up the machinery so that the details can be worked out by the departmental officials.
There are one or two particular matters which I would like to mention at this time. We could make a useful contribution to the enlargement of this trade by organizing and marshalling studies on the whole question of grading and presenting products of the federation to be sold in this country. It seems to me that they produce a large number of items which we do not have and which we require, and that these items could be presented to this country as exports which would be of benefit not only to the West Indies but to Canada.
I am quite prepared to admit that we have not been able to create a system of grading and handling such items as those requiring refrigeration, packaging and so on, and that this facet of trade must be studied. I believe, however, that one activity which could be undertaken by this government is a study, primarily through its own personnel but which would rapidly be supported by the traders of Canada, with a view to offering assistance to the federation in the methods of standardizing, grading and handling products which could be exported from the West Indies to Canada.
This naturally brings me to another facet of the subject, which is the question of shipping. I am aware that this matter has been discussed on the estimates during the last three days, and I therefore will not extend my remarks on shipping, as I would rather like to do. My purpose is not to be critical of the government with respect to this matter of trade with the West Indies, although I must admit that I am critical of the government with respect to the discontinuance of the Canadian National Steamships service to the West Indies. I expressed myself on this subject at some length on Friday last, and I can only say that in the light of the historical association between Canada and the British Carribean area, in the light of the profitable trade we have had with that area over the years and in the light of the new political development which has taken place in that area, I cannot alter my position from that of the sharpest criticism of the government for having discontinued in such a precipitous way the service to the area in 1957.
Indeed, upon checking into the background of this subject I was interested to note the consideration given to this matter by the former government, and in particular the announcement made to this House of Commons in, I believe, March of 1956 by the then minister of transport that the shipping service would continue for another five years. That was the policy announced which was supported in a rather fine paragraph or two of
Canada-West Indies Trade a speech by the present Minister of National Revenue on this subject in March of 1957 when, as I read his remarks, he spoke very strongly in favour of the service being continued. Only a few months after this, however, the government of which he became a member after the 1957 election abruptly discontinued the service without a proper explanation to the house, and I respectfully submit without a proper consideration of the factors involved.
It is interesting to note that this service had operated at a profit in the year 1956, though I admit there were some problems concerning it, but in 1957 a strike occurred which was a very difficult strike to settle involving a difficult labour problem, and the minister abruptly announced the discontinuance of the service. I have never been aware that a labour situation or a strike made necessary that kind of precipitate action. That was followed by the decision to sell these ships, although I do not know whether or not they are actually sold as yet. The suggestion was put forward by some of us in the opposition that consideration be given to the possibility of giving one of these ships to the federation so that our mutual trade might be continued.
I hold the view that in the light of all this there must of necessity be a note of sharp criticism in my remarks on that respect of the matter having to do with the shipping service to the federation, particularly at this time and particularly in the light of the announcement by the former government that the service would be continued for about five years.
The other matter for consideration is the question of the kind of action which should be taken, and I would respectfully put forward to the house at this time the suggestion that the kind of action we require is action on the political level direct from the government of Canada to the government of the West Indies. That becomes necessary for this reason. On Friday, when the estimates of the department were before the committee of the whole for discussion, I was very critical of the government for not having taken any action to follow up or consider the proposal for free trade put forward at Mont Tremblant last year by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I will not rehash those arguments, but I want to point out today in the context of the resolution now before the house that had that proposal received the kind of consideration from the Canadian government which it was entitled to receive, and had the Canadian government taken appropriate action with respect to it, discussions would have taken
2480	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Canada-West Indies Trade place on the subject to find out precisely what was in the mind of the United Kingdom authorities; there would have been an opportunity to put forward what the Canadians had in mind by way of liberalizing or freeing trade in the areas under the control of the United Kingdom, and this would have brought up directly the matter of currency exchange control in the area we are discussing.
I can only suggest that this debate today and the bringing forward of this subject shows in a practical and real way the consequences of the government's failure to give consideration to this new and, one could almost say, startling proposal by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer. Had the government treated this suggestion properly there would already be under way the kind of detailed study which is required with respect to this area of the Federation of the West Indies.
Now, on this question of the exchange and currency difficulties in the area, I wish to recall to the house a short paragraph of a speech made by the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) on January 7, 1958. He was discussing the larger matter of trade with this area, and I should like to read a sentence or two of his speech in the house. It will be found on page 2970 of Hansard:
Perhaps it would be worth considering whether we cannot tie that new part of the commonwealth, as it soon will become, more closely economically and financially to our own country, Canada, by exploring the possibility of free trade between the West Indies and Canada, or a freer trade area, and by tying up our two currencies which would encourage trade and transport between us.
It seems to me that approval of the resolution as it is presented to the house would give the government the kind of support it requires and, indeed, more than giving them this support it might incite them to the kind of action which the country requires to get on with discussions with the West Indies so that steps could be taken to increase trade with each of the component parts of the federation, and if and when the federation does have jurisdiction over its own customs regulations, to deal with the federation on that basis and also to go forward now with the United Kingdom in whatever steps may be taken to relax the exchange controls which now govern that area.
It seems to me that because of the political history of the area, its geographical location and other reasons I have mentioned, we require, and are justified in taking, very imaginative and bold steps with regard to this matter, steps going further than perhaps we might be inclined to take with regard to other countries in the world at this time. And the right time to act is now. I do not

know Mr. Speaker, whether one can correctly use the phrase "politically perfect timing", but to the extent to which one can use such a phrase it seems to me that the timing is politically perfect for this to be done in the light of the arguments I have just advanced.
There are a great many publications to which I could make reference, but perhaps I should not be serving a useful purpose in doing so. There is a great deal I could say by way of appreciation of the work done by the former government.


Mr. Cardiff:: Don't forget to tell us that.


George James McIlraith: Well, I think it is a very proper thing to do when speaking on the subject, for reasons which I will indicate to the hon. member for Huron. There was the agreement in 1898, the 1912 agreement, then the 1920 agreement, and again in 1925 the agreement which was worked out in that year and which came into force in 1927 but which, curiously enough, is properly referred to as the West Indian Trade Agreement Act of 1926. That 1926 trade agreement act is the agreement under which we have operated in connection with this area for all these years. It was in its time a very bold and imaginative act, and it produced very good results both for this country and for the Caribbean area.
I will not elaborate on the details, but we were granted a sharply reduced tariff on our goods going into that area, the actual rates depending on the island concerned, because they varied with the various parts of the area. However, the reduction was of the order of 50 or 75 per cent of the current tariff granted under the British preferential rate. It was a very successful piece of legislation, and I think the hon. member for Huron, if he studies the problem, would agree that it was an excellent agreement; and I do not know how one could discuss this subject adequately without referring to the West Indian Trade Agreement Act of 1926.
I do not propose to extend my remarks further, but I should like to quote two sentences from a speech made by Sir Grantley Adams, the prime minister of the federation, made at Mount Allison University at the 1957 summer institute when the subject under discussion was "Canada and the West Indies federation". It will be found on page 36 of the publication put out by the university. The first sentence I wish to quote is this:
But we are profoundly convinced that our whole future depends on the closest possible relationship with the Dominion of Canada.
Then a little further on he had this to say:
I am not flattering you. I am not saying it because I am addressing a Canadian audience. What I do say is that we consider our future success will lie with the closest possible understanding between the West Indies and Canada.

Mr. Speaker, that seems to me to present to us both a challenge and a promise. It is a promise which I am sure all hon. members on both sides of this chamber without regard to political affiliation will welcome. I can think of speeches made by the hon. member for St. John Albert (Mr. Bell) on this subject in the past which lead me to believe that this proposal would win his support. Far be it from me to speak for him, but I am sure that he and hon. members of this house in all political parties will welcome the promise inherent in those remarks of the prime minister of the federation. It presents a challenge to us, as I said, and it is in connection with that challenge that I wish to relate my remarks today.
I present this motion to the house today as the kind of answer to the challenge that private hon. members of this house in their capacity as private hon. members can give; and I ask that the Prime Minister of Canada accept that challenge and follow up in acceptance of the challenge with the kind of action that only the government has the power and authority to take. That is action to put in motion immediately in a specific way the political and technical measures on the part of the trade officers that will make our response to the challenge become something of which we will be proud. By that action we will have done a great deal to develop trade with the area, I would hope that the action taken by hon. members will be such as to bring pride to the hearts of all Canadians. I hope they will feel that they have taken the proper action with respect to a member state of the commonwealth at this time.
I thank you, Mr. Speaker, and in conclusion I want to thank all hon. members for the patience and courtesy with which they have listened to my remarks on this important subject today, all too inadequate though they may have been.


Mr. Heaih Macquarrie (Queens):: Mr. Speaker, I rise with a feeling of great pleasure at being given an opportunity to take part in this discussion on an extremely important matter. I should like to congratulate most heartily the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) for his splendid presentation. Indeed, his presentation was so exhaustive and complete that in fear of being redundant I shall be forced, to an even greater degree than usual, to bring to my remarks the laconic brevity which I have sought to achieve over the years. I congratulate him, too, on the generally non-political tone of his remarks, and I shall also endeavour to follow that pattern. I shall not engage in a detailed
Canada

West Indies Trade discussion of the development of shipping and the merchant marine in Canada lest I fall into the tendency of criticizing the party to which the hon. member belongs for some of its actions and omissions in years not too far past.
I believe the hon. member is quite right in referring to private members' days as one of the great privileges of a democratic parliamentary system, when we function more as members of a national parliament than as adherents of a political party. I noted that the hon. member was so mellow in his broad attitude that he even referred with apparent equanimity to a certain Canadian event in the month of March.
Coming as I do from the maritimes, a region which has long had intimate and highly satisfactory relations with the West Indies, I am particularly happy to have the opportunity of speaking on this subject at this time. Perhaps there is something appropriate in my so doing, in that I am a member from an island province and we are speaking today about our relations with an archipelago, a group of islands. Not only are Prince Edward Islanders and the people of the maritimes interested in this subject, but I believe it is one in which all Canadians are deeply interested.
I am of the opinion that the terms of the resolution before us are so broad that we must consider more than the economic factors. In considering a proposal for free trade with another political entity we must take into consideration a great many political factors. Therefore I intend to be somewhat general and probably historical-I hope never hysterical-in some of the remarks I propose to make.
It is interesting that we now look upon the development of the second British federation on the North American continent. There are many problems involved in a federation. Some of the scholars in the pristine purity of their analysis have declared that Canada is not a federation but a quasi-federation. However, this is not the time for such constitutional hairsplitting. I think it can be said that there is much in common in the development of Canada from 1867 on and the new federation to the south. Indeed, our population was somewhat similar in 1867, about three million. We have perhaps not advanced as much as many of our earlier statesmen had hoped, but we have advanced magnificently.
We look forward to the political advancement of the British West Indies federation and we look forward to welcoming them as a member of the commonwealth. It was my great pleasure to be present at the United

of making use of them will find increasing favour in that area. I refer to one, the potato. In Prince Edward Island we grow the finest potatoes in the world. We have always been interested in the West Indian market. I am glad to see that over the years there has been improvement in our sales to that market we sold $418,000 worth last year. This market-could be improved and I think it should be improved.
Now while I believe that this is the time to think of these things, I have a feeling it would be a bit unrealistic to expect that a customs union would come about immediately. The history of customs unions has generally been that they are rather slow in their evolution. You will recall that after the second world war there were a great many prospects for customs unions amongst countries which had a good deal in common politically and which had a common goal, their own economic betterment. However, they are still a long way from the fruition of their plans for customs unions.
I am not one of those who say that a customs union or free trade area, to be more precise in the terms of the resolution, could not and might not come about between these two parts of North America, so closely bound by tradition. But I do think that no matter how vigorously the government might move in this direction it is not something which can come about quickly. I will agree that we should draw closer to this area. We, the oldest commonwealth member, rejoice in the development on this hemisphere of another potential member of that wonderful association. I believe, too, we can be helpful. I like the idea that was put forward that perhaps we should develop a Caribbean plan somewhat similar to the Colombo Plan. Some steps have been taken in that direction. The United States, too, has given some technical assistance, but it is only the beginning; the West Indians feel it is only the beginning. I believe we should look upon ourselves as just beginning.
But there is something even broader, and that is that our relations with the West Indies will tax, and test in good measure, Canadian political maturity. It took quite a long time for us to recognize our position in the world. For many years we were much involved in penetration of our own frontiers. But then we moved across and took our place in the world, especially in that north Atlantic triangle which has become so much a part of our history. But we are a member and a part of this hemisphere. As a power with world responsibilities, we cannot look only as far south as Washington and only to the western European world. We have a place of leadership here on this part of the globe.

In close union with this great multi-racial community I think we can go forward to give great leadership in this part of the world. I would envisage that some day-and of course this is only my personal opinion and hope-we might take our place along with a fully independent West Indies federation and member of the commonwealth in the Organization of American states often called the Pan-American union and that that would be the full measure of our continental solidarity and brotherhood with this new and very interesting young nation that we now see before our eyes taking its place in this troubled, difficult yet altogether interesting and challenging world.


Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, coming as I do from a province which basically depends oh exports for its well-being, I am naturally always greatly interested when there is before the house a motion which deals with either the expansion of trade or a policy of extension of free trade. That is the type of motion with which we are dealing at the present time and which was introduced by the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith).
I cannot say that I completely agree with all the remarks of the previous speaker. I am inclined to believe that he was a little bit too much on the pessimistic side and could not see advances in the field of trade between the Federation of the West Indies and Canada in as rapid a time as I am certain the sponsor of the motion and I believe is possible. It is not very often when we find a country with which we have had expanding business over the years coming to our country, as has been done in recent weeks and in recent months, telling us that they would like to buy more from us and asking why we do riot do something to assist them in buying more from Canada.
In more than one important publication it has been pointed out in recent weeks that we in this country are not accepting the challenge of the opportunity for greater exports to the Federation of the West Indies. It was only in recent weeks that I was reading an interesting issue of the commercial letter of the Canadian Bank of Commerce. I refer to their issue No. 2 in March of this year. From it I should like to quote two paragraphs. On page 8 we find this:
The problem of overcoming United Kingdom-oriented buying habits in the West Indies and that of maintaining a competitive price position are primarily sales and production considerations. On a long-term basis, however, the situation offers something more of a challenge to Canada, and at the same time provides an opportunity for this country to take a constructive part in building a prosperous economy in the West Indies.
The market for certain Canadian goods in the next few years is promising. The need for fer-
Canada-West Indies Trade tilizers is expected to grow as agriculture develops, and the market for capital goods and for certain manufactured goods should also expand.
In the same commercial letter of the Canadian Bank of Commerce we find this:
The West Indies, in seeking to build an economy which will raise the level of prosperity, will need the friendly co-operation of many other countries. The outstanding needs of the new federation are stability in the markets for its produce, an inflow of investment capital, and some financial and technical assistance. The country that joins in an attempt to supply these needs will, in the long run, confer considerable benefits upon itself, as far-sighted private interests have already realized.
I believe that this commercial letter, which was issued only in March of this year, is pointing out both to the government and to the industries of this country that there is a challenge that our country can meet as put to us by the Federation of the West Indies and that there is at least the indication that we are perhaps not taking full advantage of the opportunities being presented to us.
As a matter of fact, I am most happy at the increase in the export and import trade in the past few years between what is now the Federation of the West Indies and our own country of Canada. I did not make a study of the same years as those mentioned by the two previous speakers but I note that in 1953 Canada had exports to what is now known as the Federation of the West Indies of some $29,578,000 and that only four years later, in 1957, that figure had increased to $40,276,000. On the other side of the picture, in 1953 we imported in the amount of $23,408,000 and four years later, in 1957, we imported $58,430,000 worth of goods.
It is most interesting to make a study of what are the major imports that we receive from the Federation of the West Indies. If we make a study of what are our major imports, we can then come to a rather full realization as to why our fellow citizens in that part of the commonwealth are most anxious that they should do a greater business with Canada and buy more from our country. Just on the basis of 1957 I find that here in this country we took as much as one-third of our requirements in unrefined sugar from the Federation of the West Indies, one-half of our requirements of molasses and syrups and two-thirds of our requirements of bauxite alumina. Of course I suppose the story would not be complete if I did not mention that we also import from the Federation of the West Indies one-third of our rum. Canadian importation of two-thirds of our requirements in bauxite alumina and one third of our requirements in unrefined sugar means a great deal to Jamaica, especially as regards their market for sugar.
We have not, however, taken advantage of their requests and desires. They not only

Canada-West Indies Trade sent over a most powerful delegation this year to see if they could not buy more from Canada, but they pointed out that they have the dollars with which to buy, something which so many countries do not have. They have all the dollars they require.
Why are they so anxious that we should sell more to them? It is, of course, to use the words of the delegation, because they are worried about the situation whereby on six months' notice Canada could cut off the $1 per hundred pounds preferential. The amazing feature of the trade situation is that Canada gives the Federation of the West Indies $1 preferential per hundred pounds on our imports of unrefined sugar, while the United States gives no preferential whatsoever. Yet in the past the majority of imports which have been going into the Federation of the West Indies have been from the United States and not from Canada. In a one-year period when there was a differential of $3.8 million in Canada there was a differential of $53 million in the United States, so I think we can all very easily realize the fears felt by the people of the federation lest Canada should ever decide to change its mind with respect to the differential. I would like to read very briefly from a most interesting article in the Financial Post of January 18, 1958, written by a Mr. Robert W. McRae, headed "Jamaica's Trade Slogan 'If You've Got It, We'll Buy It' ". This is a most unusual situation, and the article reads as follows:
Jamaican leaders are coming north next week for trade talks.
They want to step up buying in Canada to keep the vital sugar preference.
As it is now, $56 million goes from Jamaica to the U.S. annually, trade which could be diverted to Canada.
This is available to Canada. And the Jamaican slogan will be: If you've Got It, we'll Buy It.
The article goes on to make it very, very clear that they have all the dollars required in the Federation of the West Indies and that they feel because of their relationship with Canada in respect of the commonwealth and because of the assistance that Canada has been able to give them in respect of economic development and in trade preference that they have an obligation to Canada.
So we have these people almost pleading that we should export more in order that they may import less from the United States and so that we can see the kind of friends they are to us. Yet we have one hon. member who says, "Go slow-go slow, it is going to take a long while." On the other hand, the businessmen and the parliamentarians of Jamaica, according to the newspapers, are in a state of anxiety about trade with this country and we have such information as is

given to us in commercial letters and publications from financial organizations which I imagine are most stable, such as the Canadian Bank of Commerce.
When we view the entire picture, therefore, we must agree that this is the most appropriate time for the hon. member for Ottawa West to have introduced this motion for the expansion of trade with the Federation of the West Indies, and so far as this group is concerned we are most certainly heartily in agreement with its basic principles. Whether or not it is accepted by this House of Commons, we do suggest that something should be done to expand trade with the federation for which expansion the federation has been pleading and has outlined on more than one occasion.


Mr. C. W. Carter (Burin-Burgeo):: Mr. Speaker, the bold and courageous decision of the ten British colonies of the Caribbean, Jamaica, Trinidad, Tobago, Barbados, the Leeward and Windward islands to form together a political federation was certainly an act of faith in themselves, in their land and in the commonwealth. It was a demonstration of faith in their ability to work together to develop their resources, to improve their living standards and to raise their level of prosperity; it was a demonstration of faith in the commonwealth because they knew their experiment could not hope to succeed without outside aid and that faith in the commonwealth was a demonstration of faith in Canada particularly because of all commonwealth countries Canada is the member in the best position to be able to give them the kind of assistance they need.
Following as they do a path similar to that followed by the Canadian provinces 90 years ago, they have every right to look to Canada for a large measure of assistance, not only because they subscribe to the same kind of parliamentary institutions and values as those to which we subscribe and because we are geographical neighbours, being part of the same hemisphere, not only because of Canada's tradition of assistance granted under the Colombo Plan, but most of all because, as the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) pointed out this afternoon, more than any other country in the world the economy of Canada supplements that of the British West Indies.
As the hon. member for Queens (Mr. Mac-quarrie) pointed out this afternoon, this federation faces tremendous difficulties, difficulties far more formidable than those faced by the Canadian provinces 90 years ago. These islands which have decided to federate extend over a range of some 1,800 miles and are separated by water; they have

the disadvantages of a small population with, in some areas, overcrowding. They have some cases of extreme poverty which did not obtain in Canada and to cope with all this they have less natural wealth to develop and upon which to draw.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) has announced that a refrigerated ship will be built by Canada and given to the Federation of the West Indies as a gift for use in their inter-island trade, but more than that is required. They certainly require large amounts of capital investment and donations of capital goods; they need port and harbour facilities for loading and unloading cargoes; they need refrigeration facilities and technical know-how.
Above all, they will need ships to carry on trade between the British West Indies and Canada. These ships should be specially built for that purpose. We in Canada know the handicaps of having a small domestic market, and we can appreciate, therefore, that with a population of only around three million the British West Indies federation, if it is to develop and prosper, must rely mainly on the development of its external trade. Without the improvement and expansion of trade all our gifts of capital and equipment and other assistance will be of no use.
Canada has enjoyed trade relations with the British West Indies for over 200 years, and trade with the province of Newfoundland has probably extended over a longer period than that. This trade had its beginning with the maritime provinces and there are still great opportunities for its expansion to the mutual advantage of all Canada and particularly of the Atlantic region. We in Newfoundland have bought our supplies of rum-as the hon. member for Queens pointed out-from the West Indies, but we depend on them for other products too-staple products for our fishermen such as molasses and salt. Our manufacturing industries depend to a large extent on their bauxite, and the islands in turn depend upon Canada for dairy products, vegetables and manufactured goods.
Since 1912 there have been preferential trade agreements between Canada and the British West Indies federation. The original agreement of 1912 was revised in 1920 and again in 1926. In considering this resolution, which states that the government should consider the advisability of establishing free trade between Canada and the Federation of the West Indies, it would be worth while to take a look at the agreement which is already in existence. The present agreement grants prescribed margins of tariff preferences to most Canadian goods. The agreement provides that duties on Canadian
Canada-West Indies Trade goods may not exceed a certain percentage of most-favoured-nation rates of duties. For example, in the Barbados and Trinidad it must not exceed 50 per cent of the mostfavoured-nation rate; in Jamaica it must not exceed 75 per cent of that rate. To work out a practical example, if we suppose that in Trinidad the most-favoured-nation rate is 10 per cent, then the preferential tariff would not exceed 5 per cent. Similarly, in Jamaica it would not exceed 7| per cent. In addition, the agreement sets forth a specified margin of preference on Canadian flour, dairy products, meat, fish and apples.
Canada, under the agreement, grants free entry to most British West Indies products other than sugar, tobacco and spirits and bound margins of preference on all dutiable goods, including sugar. The most important preference is, of course, as the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) pointed out this afternoon, on raw sugar which is imported for refining in Canada and which forms the basis of manufacturing industries in the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. The preference on 96 per cent sugar is $1 per 100 pounds. Canada gave preferences also on bananas, cocoa beans, rum, coffee and spices and, in addition, gave a general undertaking that in respect of all goods not specifically mentioned in the agreement the duty on imports from the British West Indies would at no time exceed 50 per cent of the general tariff of Canada.
Notwithstanding the discriminatory dollar control restrictions, this agreement has greatly encouraged the growth of trade. If we look at the figures we find that for the three years immediately before the agreement was signed imports averaged $19 million a year; if we take the average for 1954, 1955 and 1956 we find that the average imports amounted to $58 million annually.
Now that the islands of the West Indies federation are working out their customs union it will be necessary for this trade agreement to be revised, and this appears to be a very opportune time for the government to give consideration to replacing this agreement by a free trade agreement. The present rates are so small as to have no significance as far as revenue is concerned, and the growth in trade which has already taken place indicates that an even greater expansion would result from a removal of restrictions altogether.
If we look at the year 1955 we find that Jamaica exported more to Canada than to the United States, and double what it exported to Europe. In the same year Trinidad exported to Canada twice as much as to the United States. On the other hand, the

Canada-West Indies Trade British West Indies have become Canada's third market for fully manufactured goods. Trade between Canada and the British West Indies must be a natural development, because the two economies supplement each other to a great degree; they produce things that we cannot produce and we produce products which they cannot produce. We need their products and they need ours, and trade under these conditions must necessarily be to our mutual advantage and certainly should be conducted as freely as possible.
As one who comes from Newfoundland I am particularly interested, naturally, in the expansion of the British West Indies market for our fish. This market has been one of our traditional salt fish markets for centuries. It is a necessary product because it provides these people with the essential protein and salt which are necessary to health in the kind of climate in which they live.
I wish to place some figures on the record to give some idea of the importance of this market for salt fish. We find that the exports to the Caribbean area for the years 1953 to 1957 inclusive represented 48 per cent of our total salt fish exports. Of that amount nearly half, or 21 per cent, went to the three larger islands which make up the British West Indies federation. Jamaica took an annual average of 113,000 quintals, Barbados an average of 23,000 quintals and Trinidad an average of 24,000 quintals making an average annual total of nearly 160,000 quintals of dried fish for each of the years between 1953 and 1957 inclusive.
With a growing population this market is bound to expand. It has been estimated that by 1970 the population of the British West Indies will have increased from 3,500,000 to 7 million. The best way to expand the market in that area not only for fish but for all Canadian products is to increase the prosperity of the people who consume. The implementation of this resolution will do a great deal more to make the British West Indies strong and prosperous and at the same time will benefit all Canada and particularly the Atlantic provinces. As far as the exportation of Newfoundland salt fish is concerned it would be more beneficial than a subsidy. The growth and prosperity of the British West Indies will strengthen not only the commonwealth but the whole free world. For that reason I have great pleasure in seconding the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Ottawa West. I commend him for bringing it forward at this time and I trust it will receive the support of all hon. members.


Mr. G. D. Clancy (Yorkion):: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in rising to participate in this debate. Since I represent an agricultural constituency in the province of Saskatchewan I am naturally interested in any increase in trade since the area from which I come is also a surplus producing area. Although the West Indies federation has not yet come into being I feel that everything should be done within the present bounds of our trade agreements in order to increase the channels of two-way trade between Canada and this area.
According to the dominion bureau of statistics report of Canadian exports for March 1958, we are now exporting to the islands comprising the federation agricultural products of a wide variety. The exports represent practically ail phases of agriculture in Canada. It has been said today that the agricultural industries of both areas are complementary.
Representing a western constituency I am particularly interested in the volume of cereal grains and other field crops exported to the West Indies whether in the form of whole grain, flour or processed products such as macaroni, oil cake, poultry and stock concentrates. For years past the area comprising the West Indies federation has been a large and traditional market for Canadian wheat flour. Canadian flour has been sold and recognized as one of the economic links between the two members of the commonwealth. For the past few years the trend has been away from Canadian flour to United States flour due entirely to the subsidy being paid to United States mills enabling them to quote at prices Canadian mills cannot meet.
To illustrate this, in 1955 Canada exported 2,147,047 bags of flour, while in 1957 Canada exported 1,789,452 bags. To emphasize the fact that this change is due solely to United States subsidized flour, I quote from the report of the Canada flour export committee dated March 26 and prepared after a visit to Jamaica:
There Is a great deal of good will towards Canadian flour, and a desire to purchase counter grades if Canada could compete on price. Canadian baker's flour predominates, although there is evidence of American flour making inroads. American baking flour is selling at $4.62 to $4.82, with Canadian flour 40 cents to 50 cents a bag higher. The larger bakers point out the importance of high protein flour. Smaller bakers are mixing Canadian and American flour. The price differential on the American flour lowers their over-all cost and, unless steps are taken to remedy this condition, it is our feeling more and more American baker's flour will be used.
From the same source, with respect to Trinidad, I quote the following paragraph:
Flour from the United States of America mills has gained a strong position-so much so that one particular brand has become a criterion for all other brands. It was suggested by some importers that a new brand name common to all Canadian

mills and at a discount of 20 cents below the popular United States flour brand might be the answer. Flour is being offered by Canadian brokers as low as $4.25. This flour, however, is of a very indifferent quality, and is not giving Canadian flour a very good name. Canadian good quality flour would have to be sold at from 50 cents to 60 cents a bag below present offerings to create any interest. The bakers want a better grade of flour from Canada at a price of $4.40 c.i.f.
The two main classes of flour imported into the West Indies are baking flour and counter flour. Counter flour is imported almost 100 per cent from the United States because they are able to supply from that country a second clear flour of maximum 1 per cent ash'-protein does not matter-at a price which would be equivalent to about $3.40 Canadian per 100 pounds, c.i.f. Kingston, Jamaica. Although flour milled straight from Canadian No. 5 wheat was shipped to the West Indies a few years ago in large quantities and was found suitable for counter flour purposes, the present subsidy of the United States makes it impossible for any flour to be shipped from Canada at this price. Canada has maintained her position as a major exporter of flour through the years, not by selling cheap flour, but by selling quality. In commercial relationships with the West Indies, I feel sure that the Canadian milling companies stand well ahead of United States milling companies, yet we are losing business year after year. This is solely a matter of price. In 1957, Canada imported $58.4 million worth of goods from the British West Indies federation and exported to the islands $40.3 million worth of goods.
The solution of our flour export difficulties lies with our private enterprise people, with help from our trade commissioners. Already steps are being taken by the millers and the primary producers to introduce into the West Indies flour of a standard and at a price that will compete with United States subsidized flour. Wheat and flour exports to the West Indies are only part of the picture. To increase our exports we shall have to, and we can, take more of the West Indian agricultural products. The problem lies partly with the new federation and partly with ourselves. An exchange of ideas and of technical knowledge between the two countries is necessary. As the West Indian farmer learns to supply standard products to the market we shall see the West Indies seeking wider markets.
Another phase of their development is taken from the agricultural survey made by Dr. A. L. Jolly for the Caribbean commission. In discussing methods needed to improve agriculture, besides the one I mentioned, such as standardization of production to make available to exporters a standard product which would be acceptable, he has another 57071-3-157
Canada-West Indies Trade interesting comment to make. He mentions a difficulty which I think Canada can help to solve. In discussing the relationship of Caribbean agriculture and its industrial growth he states that Caribbean agriculture is inefficient, and to say that it is as efficient as any other tropical area is not good enough. He said:
-Caribbean agriculture is strikingly inefficient. Its inefficiencies are due primarily to lack of management. It is the function of management to organize the other economic factors of production in the most efficient combination. The characteristic of too much labour working with inefficient capital equipment, so typical of much Caribbean agriculture is due to the fact that management has not yet invented ways of righting this unbalance profitably. The lack of management is not due to lack of intelligence or lack of energy among managers but to their inadequate numbers. The problem in the Caribbean is not how a surplus of young trained men can find land and money to start farming, but who will replace the small number of existing managers when they retire.
There we have the problem facing the Caribbean agriculture which governments, private exporting companies and our universities can assist to solve by encouraging the training of young men and supplying and training the managers needed in this new area.
The West Indies federation, with a population of three million and with a very high birth rate, will never be able to produce sufficient food to feed its growing population. It is a population which will have a continuously rising standard of living. In this area we have at our door a market which should be ours. The great bulk of agricultural products from the British West Indies which will be seeking markets do not in any way conflict with our Canadian agriculture. On the other hand, as the British West Indies federation raises the standard and quantity of its products the United States will be forced by pressure groups within their economy to control the amount of those competing agricultural products entering the United States. This leaves Canada in a favoured position and gives us an opportunity to start to develop now a reciprocal trade in agricultural products, and we should take advantage of a situation which is so favourable to us.


Mr. J. A. McGrath (St. John's East):: Mr. Speaker, my remarks on this resolution will be brief because, since the outset of the debate, I have had the unhappy experience of sitting here and finding all the statistics which I have so long and laboriously sought after presented by previous speakers.
In his remarks, the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo (Mr. Carter) presented the problems of trade with the West Indies, particularly
2490	HOUSE OF
Canada-West Indies Trade as they apply to the province of Newfoundland and the Atlantic provinces of Canada. It is interesting to note, that the salt fish industry, which is at present undergoing somewhat of a crisis, is accounted for by the most part by the provinces of Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, and one of the chief remaining customers of Canada's salt fish has been the British West Indies. We hope that the difficulties being encountered at present by the fish trades of the Atlantic provinces and the authorities of Jamaica and the other islands of the West Indies will soon be overcome so that we can settle back to our traditional happy trade relations with one of our best salt fish customers.
As was outlined by previous speakers, Canada and particularly the Atlantic provinces of Canada noted with interest the inaugural ceremonies last March founding what we hope will be one of the members of the commonwealth, the West Indies federation.
We in eastern Canada particularly were very much concerned with this development because, as I said previously, the West Indies are in fact one of our best customers. Perhaps it is ironic that we in the province of Newfoundland have had so many things in common with our neighbours in the new federation. For many years we have known the consequences, hardships and difficulties which flow from a single industry economy. We are also not unlike our neighbours in the West Indies in that much of our trade results from our geographical location.
I could not help but be impressed with the statistics that I encountered in my research, and particularly those statistics relating to salt fish. For example, of all the fish exported from Canada in 1957, 3.4 per cent went to the island of Jamaica which, incidently, comprises more than half the population of the new federation. The other nine islands are, by population and by size, small in comparison. My figures, therefore, for the most part deal with the island of Jamaica. Of the total fish exported in 1957-I believe this figure has already been cited on several occasions-6 per cent went to the British West Indies. I would venture to say that this 6 per cent came primarily from Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.
The resolution before us is an interesting one in that it advocates that the government consider the advisability of establishing a free trade area between Canada and the West Indies. This is most important to the Atlantic provinces of Canada, those provinces which have been struggling for so many years under many heavy problems. I noted with interest the remarks of the hon. member for Queens (Mr. Macquarrie) and his suggestion that perhaps consideration might be given to


a Caribbean Colombo plan. This would seem to make sense in many ways, in so far as my limited experience goes. I hope it is a suggestion that will merit some consideration in the future. It is perhaps because the salt fish industry is of such importance that we on this side of the house have viewed with concern the problems of this industry which represents such an important part of the economy of the Atlantic provinces, particularly Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.
I would suggest that this resolution merits the serious consideration of the members of the house. I would hope that in the debate which will follow the speakers will not be influenced by partisan politics, so that we may receive the utmost benefit from this very worthy suggestion.


Mr. R. J. McCleave (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, my first word in this debate must be to assess, in general, the picture that each country has of the other, that is the new Federation of the British West Indies as seen by Canadians and the reverse. I think that we each tend, in certain times of the year, to view the other as a paradise, especially when winter has cast its spell over our country and we tend to think of the sunny climate of the south and I think that they, with their fine weather, tend to think of Canada as the place to which they would like to come.
As the hon. member who preceded me has remarked, one of the disadvantages in participating in this debate is that everyone seems to have read that excellent publication called "Canada and the West Indies Federation", which was put out by Mount Allison University publications, at Sackville, New Brunswick, following an institute on Canada and the West Indies federation held last August. Actually, the full title is "Mount Allison 1957 Summer Institute, Canada and the West Indies Federation". To my horror I found that the mover of the resolution, the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) began with a quotation from Sir Grantley Adams, then prime minister of the Barbados and now prime minister of the federation. When he stated, I am quoting from page 36, I started to say to myself, "But we are profoundly convinced-", and the hon. member for Ottawa West said, "But we are profoundly convinced-" and so on. He did neglect to give all the quotation, and I think it might be of interest to the house, so I have no hesitation in reading about 75 or 100 words from it.
But we are profoundly convinced that our whole future depends on the closest possible relationship with the Dominion of Canada. We have already passed appropriate resolutions at some of our federal meetings, and we intend in a short time to send delegations up to Ottawa. We are already determined to explore the possibilities for increased

trade and for increased immigration. Of course, we shall continue the cultural ties which have existed so long with Canada. When I was comparatively young, I think there were more McGill graduates among our doctors than from any other part of the world. Our youth comes to Canadian colleges and Canadian universities, and we want those ties to be strengthened and increased. I'm not flattering you, I'm not saying it because I'm addressing a Canadian audience, but I do say it; we consider our future success will lie with the closest possible understanding between the West Indies and Canada. We will do our best to make our contribution for mutual benefit as great as possible, and we confidently expect that this great dominion will do the same for the West Indies.
Those remarks, as I have indicated, were made by Sir Grantley Adams in his position as prime minister of the Barbados last August during the Mount Allison University summer institute. I was interested in the very thoughtful remarks of the hon. member for Ottawa West, and the remarks of the other speakers who have followed him in this debate, concerning the general appreciation of the goods that are involved in trade between the federation and this country. I wonder if these speakers appreciate some of the grave problems that exist before trade can be opened up and expanded between Canada and the British West Indies federation. With that consideration in mind I should like to detail some of these problems as I go along in these brief remarks of this afternoon. Mainly they concern the problem of sterling.
The West Indies federation is a member of the sterling area. When I have concluded I should like to cast my remarks in such a way as to suggest to Canada that five years from now this whole matter of the federation down there will be surveyed by the component countries. They will decide whether they have been able to make this multilateral marriage work; whether the contract should be altered in any way; or perhaps even whether they should give up the idea altogether. Hence the developments over the next five years, Mr. Speaker, I think will be extremely important. It may yet be found that within that period of time we shall see the growth in Canada of a thought that here, far to the south of us, south of Halifax and Newfoundland, lies a country that could very nicely become the eleventh province of Canada.
I should now like to say a word about the traditional ties between our two countries. In 1892 the Department of Trade and Commerce came into being in the federal service. In that year 1892 Canadian commercial agents were appointed in Jamaica, Trinidad, Montserrat, St. Kitts, British Guiana and Barbados. In 1907 a Canadian trade commissioner was appointed at Bridgetown, Barbados and today there are two Canadian government trade commissioners in the West Indies, as was
57071-3-157J
Canada-West Indies Trade mentioned by the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith). I might point out that the office in Kingston covers the northern part of the federation, Jamaica, Bahamas and British Honduras, and included in the territory of the Port of Spain office is Barbados, Tobago, Trinidad, Windward and Leeward islands, British Guiana, French Guiana, Surinam, Guadeloupe and Martinique. Some of these, of course, are not particularly in the federation but that is the area served.
Last year the total Canadian trade with the West Indies amounted to about $99 million and last year the West Indies constituted the fourth largest market in the commonwealth for Canada. If we add these other places that I have mentioned, namely British Guiana, British Honduras, Bahamas and Bermuda, you will find that in 1957 this was the second largest market in the commonwealth for Canada, and our tenth market in the world.
These very elementary figures tend, I believe, to illustrate qualitatively the importance of this area in Canadian trade. Last year we sold $40 million worth of goods to the West Indies. In the past years about 85 per cent of Canada's exports to the West Indies has been in the class of manufactured or semi-manufactured goods. This, Mr. Speaker, is one of the highest ratios for any of our export markets, a point about which I intend to speak subsequently in my address this afternoon. We can compare this with our trade with the United Kingdom where only some 15 per cent to 20 per cent of our exports there are classed as manufactured or semi-manufactured.
In recent years there have been trade missions back and forth between Ottawa and the West Indies and probably there will be more. As you will recall, Sir Grantley, in his remarks at Mount Allison institute, said that trade delegations would be sent to this country. In recent years there has been the signing of the Canada-British West Indies trade agreement. We have seen the flow of British West Indies students to Canadian universities and nursing schools and of Canadian tourists to the West Indies, though I believe the tourist trade to the West Indies is primarily United States. Eighty-five per cent of the tourists there come from that country. Our realization of the importance of this federation is seen in the announcement of the gift of a new ship, which gift is contrasted with the strike on the Canadian National Steamships ships, and which gift cannot be construed as political because the Liberals thought of it and we are doing it.
But despite the trade which I have mentioned, the Canadian trade with this nation is not as large as it should be owing to

Canada-West Indies Trade several limiting factors. I think the consideration of these factors is important, for even if this house passes the resolution proposed by the hon. member for Ottawa West-and I hope we do-we must still remember that much remains to be done before that fine dream of free trade becomes the reality of free trade. I am also afraid that much of that cure will have to be found elsewhere than in Canada, and that it must be found within the unique trade structure of the federation itself.
As for the limiting factors in the amount of trade we can do, I think these points should be considered. The population is about 2.8 million. Their national income is low. Their productivity is low. The range of goods and services they offer for export is limited to the items that have been mentioned this afternoon including sugar, and its by-products, lumber, bauxite, oil and of course the various tourist facilities. Another factor is the competition which results for our trade in the West Indies. By tradition the United Kingdom has been the principal supplier. In recent years the West Indies, like other countries in the sterling area, have maintained restrictions on the import of dollar goods. As far as dollar exports are concerned, we must remember that the United States are closer and that they have the advantage owing to speed and the frequency of shipping, although the United States is at a disadvantage as compared with Canada because they do not receive the British preferential treatment.
Canadians also face competition from within the commonwealth and some of these countries are in the sterling bloc. New Zealand has built up a large market for cheese and butter which cuts into the prospects of this country and those of other suppliers. Australian flour has appeared on the market, and it seems rather odd when you think of bauxite going all the way from Jamaica to British Columbia and yet the reverse trip does not seem to pick up any of this western wheat about which there is so much debate in this house. Rather, they go to Australia for their flour; again, I imagine, because of the sterling factor. Many manufactured goods from European countries, from India, Japan and Hong Kong, are being sold in the West Indies federation and the Netherlands has increased its sales of canned beets and milk products.
Canadian goods are allowed into the West Indies under several categories. Those products under the world open general licence include onions, potatoes, split peas, fish except fresh and frozen fish, meat, cheese, kraft paper, newsprint, powdered and canned milk, animal feeding stuffs and lumber and in 1956 leaf tobacco, fresh apples, fertilizers and calcium carbide were added to the list of

goods which might be imported into the West Indies under the world open general licence. The West Indies trade liberalization plan embraces a second group designed to maintain traditional markets of exports to this area and the way it works is that Canadian exporters of products listed under the plan are entitled to apply for allocations on the basis of their exports to that area between the years 1946 and 1948.
The annual report of the Department of Trade and Commerce for 1957 contains at page 52 several paragraphs on the operations of the British West Indies trade liberalization plan and perhaps I can take some brief excerpts from this report. The number of firms participating in the plan last year was 722; individual allocations processed and issued by this section during the year were 8,005, or an increase of about 35 per cent over 1956. That, of course, is an indication of the intense interest in Canada in this market to our south.
Some new products, of course, have been manufactured since this period 1946 to 1948, and the department has over the years made some provision to grant special allocations to firms which were not in business during that period and to grant them special allocations under special circumstances. Imports of products other than those in the two classifications I have mentioned, the first being the world open general licence and the second the West Indies trade liberalization plan, are subject to individual licensing. The component colonies each have a dollar program under which they grant licences for dollar goods considered essential to the development of the country and some of these colonies operate special dollar import schemes whereby dollar import quotas are distributed among local importers, thus enabling them to import Canadian or United States goods of their own choosing.
Mention has been made of the Canadian goods supplied to the West Indies, which perhaps might be broken down regionally as follows; from the west coast, lumber, apples and canned salmon; from the prairie provinces, flour; from Ontario and Quebec, motor vehicles, milk products, flour and feeds, paint, pharmaceuticals, footwear, paper, textiles, beer, rubber goods and general manufactured goods; and from the maritime provinces- and in these I include our latest acquisition, Newfoundland-salt, pickled and canned fish, potatoes, grocery items, shoes and other consumer goods.
Mention was also made this afternoon by the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. McGrath) and I believe by the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo (Mr. Carter) of some of

the problems of fish exporting trade to the West Indies. This matter is again covered in the excellent little book to which I referred earlier, entitled "Canada and the West Indies Federation". At page 72 of this publication the author of the article "The Fish Trade", Mr. R. F. Johnson, secretary of the Canadian Atlantic fish exporters association, remarks:
There is good reason to believe that past preferential tariff treatment of B.W.I. products by Canada, has led to curtailment in sales of our salt and pickled fish to some non-commonwealth Caribbean countries without resulting in compensatory increases in our sales of fish to the B.W.I.
He goes on to explain what is going on as follows:
The largest salt fish market in the B.W.I., Jamaica, maintains a consumer price ceiling on salt cod notwithstanding that within recent weeks a government minister of Jamaica is reported to have said publicly that "the Canadian sugar market is vital to our existence". This ceiling price, which applies to all five sizes of both choice and standard grades of salt cod, indirectly determines the prices that our Canadian fishermen receive for their salt cod production-and which price we have already shown is inadequate. In December 1953, this ceiling price in Jamaica was reduced from Is. 7Jd. to Is. 6d, and it was further reduced in June 1955, to Is. 5d. Only following repeated representations, including a delegation from the Canadian industry travelling to Jamaica to discuss the matter with government officials, was the ceiling price increased in September, 1956, to the current Is. 6id. per pound, still Id. below the pre-December, 1953, level.
And so on and so on.


Mr. Pickersgill:: I wonder if the hon. member would say from what he is reading-I am afraid I did not catch that.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I will be very glad to give that information to the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill). I have mentioned I think three times that I was reading from a publication entitled "Canada and the West Indies Federation" published by the Mount Allison University dealing with the summer institute last August and that the particular reference was to an article entitled "The Fish Trade" by Mr. R. F. Johnson, secretary of the Canadian Atlantic fish exporters association, commencing at page 72.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. member permit a further question? I wonder if he has seen the Halifax Chronicle-Herald for July 12 last, where the most recent statement of Mr. Zwicker, head of that association, and Mr. Johnson, the secretary, bring a lot of that information up to date.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I was trying to illustrate my point that we are going to run into some difficulty when Canadians and members of the British West Indies federation get
Canada-West Indies Trade together to discuss ways and means of increasing trade between the two countries. I did not intend to get into a discussion which would be esoteric to me regarding the problems of the fishing industry and I hope this answer will reassure the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate that I am not trying to horn in on the speciality of those who come from fish producing communities.
I mentioned earlier the fact that we supplied the West Indies with an astonishingly high percentage of manufactured goods in our exports to them-some 80 or 85 per cent-which is most unusual in ordinary trade dealings. This brings me to a most vital point, and I will illustrate it by the aluminum development in Canada and the bauxite development in the British West Indies. It should be noted that it has been Canadian investment in bauxite mining which has made possible a large export of this mineral to Canada. Trinidad's exports of petroleum products can be traced back to the first commercial discovery of oil in that colony by a Canadian syndicate at the turn of the century. Today Canadian interests are looking at copper and other mineral possibilities in Jamaica, and Canadian capital is moving into the hotel industry on Jamaica's north coast with a view to attracting more Canadian tourists.
The magazine called Commonwealth Development at page 27 of its March-April issue, volume 5, No. 2 makes an interesting point in an article called "Economic Outlook for the Federation", and I quote:
It will be the policy of the federation to assist the islands to increase the variety of their crops and also to hasten the development of secondary industries. It is in the secondary industries, assisted by a tax relief scheme, that there is the greatest scope for joint capital ventures and co-production with British firms, as is happening, for example in soap and in paint manufacture. Other secondary industries include the manufacture of margarine, matches, shoes, garments, leather and fancy goods and fruit canning.
The magazine Commonwealth Development is a British publication, and hon. members will note, in the quotation I have just read, that great emphasis was laid on the possibility for British investment in the Federation of the West Indies. I think we can substitute the word "Canadian" in that context for "British". Perhaps as partners with them there is ample room to develop this sprawling area which has now become a federation, and I think this is something that should definitely be kept in mind, knowing that in the past our investments in petroleum and bauxite have led to the development of mutually profitable industries.
I said earlier that at the end of five years the Federation of the West Indies will take stock of how this multi-lateral marriage of

Canada-West Indies Trade the various islands has worked out. What the assessment will be, time alone can tell.
I think Canada should keep a close eye on the developments there, and give these people the most sympathetic consideration and all the help we possibly can; and I think, too, that some day we should even consider asking them to become one of our own provinces.


Mr. Frank McGee (York-Scarborough):: Mr. Speaker, my first words will be to comment on the remarks which have been made earlier in this debate, before I come to my own contribution which will be made on behalf of the industrial areas of Canada, particularly the most noted, outstanding and progressive area of Canada, the Toronto area -whether the future of trade with the British West Indies federation follows the pattern suggested by the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) or not.
It has occurred to me several times during this debate that the ideas and contributions which have been made to it are certainly varied in their sources. As I was waiting my turn to speak, that great paper the Ottawa Journal came to my desk and I noticed an article there headed: "Labour party urges Colombo plan type commonwealth aid". The hon. member for Queens (Mr. Macquarrie) will be surprised to find himself in the company of such political bedfellows. I should like to read briefly from this short article:
The British Labor Party Saturday night proposed the establishment of organizations similar to those of the Colombo Plan to aid underdeveloped areas of the commonwealth.
It said the Colombo Plan, devised to boost food production and provide educational facilities in underprivileged Asian countries, could be used as a model for similar work in Africa and the West Indies.
The party's policy pamphlet said Canada and the United States-both members of the Colombo Plan -would be invited to take part in the new project if a Labor government is returned in the next British elections.
I hope, incidentally, that developments along these lines will not have to wait for anything such as that, an event, which, I am confident, is far in the distant future.
To get back to comments concerning other contributions to this debate, I must say that when I was advised that this resolution was to come up today, and took my seat here, I began to wonder if, in fact, the resolution had come up after listening to some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Ottawa West. He spoke of pessimism abroad as far as Canada's future trade developments are concerned, and I find it hard to justify that remark or agree with it in any measure. Perhaps it was just the labouring of other political remarks he made. The hon. member

also suggested that the great Liberal party had been responsible for everything-I suppose as part of the process commonly emanating from those benches-an attempt to rewrite the history of Canada and leave notable periods out.
Fortunately, the present political situation in Canada has corrected a good deal of that way of thinking. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) spoke of the need for capital goods, in particular, and I expected him to go on and mention the concessions that have been made and the encouragement provided in the West Indies with respect to the types of industry guaranteed to promote employment in that area, and certainly here is a field in which Toronto manufacturers and particularly producers of capital goods are finding interesting new prospects. Another thing which struck me about the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver East is that he used what has hitherto been a nasty word in that quarter of the house, the word "diversion".
He spoke of it in a most favourable way. I notice that the hon. member is looking rather puzzled. He will recall his quotation from the Financial Post in which it was proposed to divert purchases from the United States to Canada.


Harold Edward Winch: I was quoting from the
Financial Post.


Frank Charles McGee: But you seemed pleased about it. The remarks of the hon. member for Queens (Mr. Macquarrie) were, I thought, most appropriate and fitting as most of his contributions to the debates of this house during my experience have been. The suggestion advanced by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. McCleave) concerning the eleventh province I find very attractive. A very good friend and sometimes a political companion of mine at the university referred to presented to the federation on behalf of Canada a chair which had once been the property of Sir John A. Macdonald, which greatly added to the spirit of that occasion. I refer, of course, to the gesture by Professor Ian L. Campbell.
One aspect of the relationship of Canada to the West Indies which was not touched upon and which I expected would be raised 

and I anticipate it will be dealt with by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, he having had it within his purview over the years-is the question of immigration and immigration quotas from that area. Overpopulation has been mentioned by one or two speakers thus far in this debate. I would suggest to the government that it review the question of immigration quotas from that area. I think this would do far more than

many other friendly gestures made to the federation to promote a feeling of good will, and the promise of future good relations between Canada and the West Indies.
Referring again to Toronto, the hon. member for Ottawa West implied that nothing was being done concerning trade with the West Indies and that the situation was static. I should like to point out that certainly in my experience that is not the case. The volume of correspondence I have had from businessmen in Toronto inquiring about trade possibilities in the West Indies certainly gives the lie to that statement. I suppose that my friends in the corner, the lonesome eight, will be a little chagrined to know that the spirit of free business enterprise is stepping into the gap and providing its own incentive in this matter without the benefit of government boards and similar bodies. There have been a number of businessmen in the Toronto area making investigations of the possibilities as far as exports to the West Indies are concerned.
The quotation I should like to place on the record in concluding my remarks is taken from the publication entitled "Foreign Trade", October 26, 1957 issue. It deals with business conditions in the Caribbean. I should like in particular to refer to a paragraph entitled, "Investment Opportunities Worth Study" which reads as follows:
The most pressing need for these islands is capital for development and know-how and there are a number of opportunities for investment that might appeal to Canadian businessmen. Among them are building and running hotels or other types of accommodation for tourists in all of the islands; small industries processing local produce into jams, preserves, chutney and sauces, canned fruits and fruit juices; leather tanning; cocoa and chocolate manufacture; poultry farming to supply eggs and dressed fowl, and fibre processing.
This is the key paragraph:
Canadians with money to invest should take a pleasure-cum-business trip down to appraise the situation at first hand.
This is the type of thing which I mentioned as having been greatly activated during the last year. I continue:
The various governments welcome such visits and provide all the pertinent information on income tax concessions to pioneer industries and on the co-operation they are prepared to give. Included in this is the duty-free entry of capital equipment necessary to get the projects started.
Canadians who wish to establish a business in an area with a year-round summer climate should turn their attention to the British West Indies. They will find great good will towards Canadians, the result of a long and mutually profitable association.
In looking to the future of the British West Indies, particularly in light of the opening of the St. Lawrence seaway which
Canada-West Indies Trade will so soon be upon us, I see every indication of tremendously increased development in exports from Canada consistent with the policies of this government in matters of trade.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I have a few observations I should like to make about this motion. This is the second private members' day of the session and I felt it would perhaps be inappropriate for one who had once occupied the treasury benches to put himself forward while there were new members who wished to take part in the debate. I have therefore been waiting in the hope that perhaps by listening to the new members my own speech would be greatly shortened and I think it will be because there seems to be agreement, at least among all those who have spoken, about the desirability of supporting the motion which the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) introduced so effectively this afternoon.
I have no thought or intention of introducing a note of controversy in this matter. I hope that before this sitting day is over the house will register approval of this motion. I do not mean to suggest that we should have a division and indeed I would hope that would not be necessary. It is my hope that we will formally adopt the motion of the hon. member for Ottawa West.
The motion merely asks us to say:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the advisability of establishing free trade between Canada and the Federation of the West Indies.
If we were all to approve formally of this motion I do not believe it would impose any obligation upon the government to do anything forthwith except to give active consideration to this question which I hope and am inclined to believe the government is doing already. I have some hope in that respect from what was said by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Churchill) himself in presenting his estimates. One section of the presentation given by the minister which I found very sympathetic was what he said about West Indian trade, and I should like him to know that.
I think it might be a good idea for this house to pronounce itself in favour of this proposition at this particular time in this particular session since we know there is to be a conference in Montreal in September of the commonwealth countries at which the Federation of the West Indies is to be represented, I understand, by observers, but where there will be presumably the leading figures from the West Indian federation present who will be not only taking part in those
2496	HOUSE OF
Canada-West Indies Trade deliberations but will be having an opportunity to meet and talk once more with leading members of the government and our officials.
We know, of course, that the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Churchill) was one of the three members of the government who represented this country at the inauguration of the parliament of the federation only a very short time ago, and I am sure that most of those in the Federation of the West Indies who have the responsibilities, which are as the hon. member for Ottawa West and I think every subsequent speaker pointed out, still diffused through the federation and not concentrated in the federal government or federal parliament, for trade matters, will be present.
I of course agree with what the hon. member for Ottawa West said about the trade agreement of 1926, which is still the agreement which governs our trade relations with the West Indies federation. While I agree that it was a great step forward at that time, I think nearly all of us who have had any familiarity with the problems of trade with that area in recent years, particularly in the last year or two, have reached the conclusion that that agreement is out of date; that it no longer covers the kind of trading conditions that have to be met in this world in which we are faced with an increasing trade war between the communist world and the free world, and with an increased tendency toward the formation of trade blocs even in the free world.
Preferences alone are obviously not good enough. That does not mean to say for a moment I am suggesting that the historic preferences should be done away with; far from it. What I feel is, if we are to increase our trade with the West Indian federation, which is already a considerable part of the total trade of Canada-as has been pointed out several times they are our second best customer in the commonwealth and the tenth best customer in the world-if we are to increase that trade substantially and as rapidly as we would like and to meet the kind of competition which, as I pointed out the other day on the estimates of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, has already done us out of the market for fish in Jamaica, we will obviously have to take other steps more in line with the modern conditions. I am sure the government is giving consideration to those steps.
There is one note of warning that I had rather expected and had rather thought the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. McCleave), who spoke a little while ago, might have sounded himself when he was speaking. He


quoted an earlier statement by Mr. Johnson, the secretary of the Canadian Atlantic salt fish exporters association. I interrupted him and drew attention to the statement which was made by Mr. Zwicker, the president, and Mr. Johnson, the secretary, of that association which appeared in the Halifax Chronicle-Herald on July 12. I am not going to take the time of the house by reading it, but there is one point in it that does deserve careful consideration. We have a very big market for salt fish in the Caribbean area outside the British West Indies, in Cuba, in Puerto Rico and in the Dominican Republic and I believe now to some degree in Panama. We value that market. Over the years it has been a very good market and, by taking steps that might seem to be of an unfair or discriminatory nature, we do not want to take any risk of losing it. It is something that I know the government would keep very much in mind in any arrangements it might make for the increase of trade with the British West Indies; but we do want also to maintain and to expand our trade with those other Caribbean areas and particularly to maintain a fish market without which, of course, the fishing industry would be in a very depressed state indeed.
I think, too, that most of us-and the hon. member for Ottawa West made this pretty clear in what he said-would agree that it is not by tariff action mainly that we would achieve the kind of results we would hope to see achieved. That, I imagine, is why the hon. member for Ottawa West phrased his motion the way he did that the government should consider the advisability of establishing free trade rather than establishing a free trade area. If he had used the phrase a "free trade area", which has a certain technical connotation, it might have seemed rather more restrictive and exclusive than I think or hope he had in mind. What I think he had in mind was that he would like to see at any rate as an ultimate goal the removal of all tariffs between Canada and the British West Indies but that he would like also to see-and certainly speaking for myself I would like to see

us take other and more positive measures for the promotion of a greater flow of trade and a freer flow of trade between Canada and that area.
Now, I did make a suggestion on the estimates of the Minister of Trade and Commerce which I believe it would be trespassing on the time of the house now to repeat in any detail today. I would just remind hon. members that what I suggested was that the Canadian National West Indies Steamships, if the government had reached a firm conclusion-as they say they have-not to attempt

to have them operated under Canadian registry by Canadian National Railways any longer; if that decision cannot be changed- of course, we would like to see it changed; we would like to see them operate under the Canadian flag, as we intended to operate them if we had remained in office-but if the Canadian government's decision-I do not want to be controversial about this-seems to be that it is irrevocable, then I suggest they give very serious consideration to retaining the ownership of those ships but transferring them under some mutual aid arrangement to the Federation of the West Indies, to be operated on the same service, or at least over the same area, from the West Indies to Canada.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock.
John Whitney Pickersgill: When the house rose at six o'clock, Mr. Speaker, I was recalling the suggestion I made to the government on Saturday that they give consideration to the possibility of maintaining title to these Canadian National (West Indies) ships, and transferring them under some kind of mutual aid or other similar arrangement to the West Indies federation, in order that these shipping services might be preserved between Canada and the West Indies. I know that there might be some difficulties about the operation for the first year or two under this arrangement, but looking to the steadily rising population both there, and we hope in Canada, and to the expansion of trade we could reasonably anticipate over the years it should not be very long, if they could be reasonably efficiently operated, before these ships would be carrying a considerably increased volume of goods between the two areas. Of course, there is no real use in talking about the expansion of trade between these two areas which are geographically a long way apart across the water, unless there is reliable and efficient and reasonably cheap transport.
I did mention the other day the speech that was made by the head of the Atlantic Acadia sugar refinery at Saint John, New Brunswick, in which he pointed out, I assume correctly, that the freight rate from Jamaica to Saint John was 46 cents and to the St. Lawrence 50 cents. This, in itself, was a very considerable factor that had to be weighed by this company in deciding whether it could continue its operations in Saint John. It does seem to me, that anything we can do to prevent the removal of this historic industry 57071-3-158
Canada-West Indies Trade from Saint John would be, if it could be justified at all in relation to the cost, well worth doing. We know that there are a number of industries in the maritime provinces which depend upon the refining of sugar in those provinces for their raw materials in their own fabrication. I am thinking of such a firm as Ganong's, for example.
It did occur to me that it might be possible, if these ships were operated from the West Indies to Saint John, from Saint John to Halifax, and from Halifax to St. John's, then directly back to the West Indies, this would be the shortest route they could take to cover all those areas. It would be the route in which, so far as one can see now, there would be the maximum amount of traffic. It may very well be that with this new piggy-back development in the railways, and with reasonable refrigeration in these ships, some new developments in the transportation of fruit and vegetable from the West Indies would make them more competitive. Commodities of that sort, which depend on a reasonable degree of speed in getting to the market, logically would be shipped to Saint John and transported by rail to central Canada from there, thus reversing some of the trends that have been all too prevalent in our transportation in the past.
I cannot forbear, mentioning again the feeling that is quite universal in Newfoundland, that some means should be found to equalize the freight on salt fish between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland on the one hand and the West Indies on the other. Unhappily today most of the Newfoundland fish has to be shipped to Halifax and transshipped there, thus adding very considerable to the cost of transporting Newfoundland fish and reducing the return to the producer of the fish. It had been the hope of many of us that the West Indies steamships, if they had continued to operate, would have operated out of St. John's, Newfoundland. Of course on the route between Halifax and Saint John and St. John's, Newfoundland, there is always lots of freight in the form of, manufactured goods of one kind and another, going to the Newfoundland market.
I want to turn next to what after all has been, in the years since the war, the principal obstacle to the expansion of our trade to the degree we would like to have seen it expand with the West Indies. I refer to the exchange controls and the dollar shortage in the sterling area. This problem has resulted in the restriction particularly of the exports of manufactured goods from Canada to the West Indies. I was rather surprised to hear what the hon. member for Vancouver East
2498	HOUSE OF
Canada-West Indies Trade (Mr. Winch) said this afternoon in his otherwise admirable speech. I cannot believe that he could have been correctly informed when he said the Jamaicans and other British West Indians were clamouring for things to buy in Canada. Although there has been some considerable easing in those restrictions, thanks to repeated representations made by the previous government and the present government, there is still, as I understand it, a good deal of difficulty about the free entry of our goods into this area because of exchange controls.
It has seemed to me that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) put his finger on this problem in a speech he made in the house on January 7, 1958, as reported at page 2970 of Hansard. These sentences were quoted by the hon. member for Ottawa West in introducing this motion, but I should like to quote them again because I want to speak particularly about one aspect of the matter. What the Leader of the Opposition said was:
Perhaps it would be worth considering whether we cannot tie that new part of the commonwealth-
He was referring to the West Indies.
-as it soon will become, more closely economically and financially, to our own country, Canada, by exploring the possibility of free trade between the West Indies and Canada, or a freer trade area, and by tying up our two currencies-[DOT]
It is this I want to emphasize at the moment.
-which would encourage trade and transport between us.
We all know, of course, that the fact that Newfoundland, for many years before confederation, was within the Canadian monetary system did have an enormous effect in maximizing the trade between Newfoundland and Canada. We also know that when, because of the completion of confederation in 1949, Newfoundland came within the Canadian customs area, that trade increased at least fourfold in a very few years. Since Newfoundland was, before confederation, one of Canada's largest and most valuable customers, we can see clearly how the removal of barriers of this sort does, in fact, promote trade.
I will admit it would be difficult to contemplate bringing the West Indies within the Canadian monetary system without our accepting some responsibility at the same time for the governmental deficits which are likely to exist in that area during the first few years of the federation. But I would remind hon. members that if we do not bear the burdens of these deficits, the British will have to bear them. As long as the British government and the British taxpayers are expected to bear that burden, it is not unreasonable for them to claim, in compensation for it, that


they should have the kind of control they now exercise over the external trade of that area.
While I should not like to express a categorical view about this matter, it seems to me that it would be worth the while of the government and particularly of the department of the Minister of Trade and Commerce-the minister who has charge of maximizing our external trade-to make a careful study of what would be likely to be accomplished by bringing this area within the Canadian monetary system and at the same time accepting some of the responsibility that the British government is now accepting for the potential deficit of the government of that area.
We all know, of course, that for years Canadian banks have been operating in the British West Indies, and doing so very well. The fact that this area represents a tenth of our customers is in no small part owing to the initiative taken by the Canadian banks in going into this area. We also know that undoubtedly the greatest need of the West Indies area, like that of every other undeveloped area in the world, is the need for additional capital.
I must say that I was particularly pleased to hear the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. McGrath) this afternoon join with other members who have spoken and with other members from Newfoundland in supporting the proposal which I believe was first made by the premier of Newfoundland at the time the Gordon commission was sitting in that province namely that we should have in Canada a little Colombo plan or something of that sort for the West Indies. It seems to me that there is no other area in the world from which Canada could gain so much, directly and indirectly, as it could from this area with a plan of that sort.
The hon. member for York-Scarborough (Mr. McGee) this afternoon raised the very thorny question of the overpopulation of this area. It is true, of course, that the population in the West Indies has grown by leaps and bounds. There are over 3 million within the federation at the present time. The fact that there is not enough industrial development means that there is in this area a lack of opportunity for employment for that number of people. However, I think the only effective and helpful way of finding employment for those people in that area is from greater capital development. It seems to me that if Canada could take the lead in this field we could, directly and indirectly, secure a great return for any investment that was made, either publicly or privately, as long as it was wisely done.

This is one vision which I would commend to the government and particularly to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. It is a vision that has always attracted the Canadians in the Atlantic provinces. I should like to remind the house of these facts. The West Indian market is vital to the fish producers of Canada. Though the West Indian market is extremely important to other producers of raw materials such as lumber, wheat and potatoes; the biggest of our exports to the West Indies, when trade is relatively free, is in manufactures. Hence it would not be just for the Atlantic provinces or for Saskatchewan that this market, if it could be expanded, would be a good thing; it would also be good for the great manufacturing area of central Canada, as was rightly pointed out by the hon. member for York-Scarborough when he made his contribution to the debate.
It seems to me that there is, of course, another area in that same region that we must take into account in any proper long range plans for the development of the British West Indies. I refer, of course, to Demerara or British Guiana. This area is certainly not overpopulated. It has a great area with vast resources barely tapped. When I was minister of citizenship and immigration, in discussion with one of the ministers from Demerara, I learned that the authorities there do not feel that they are overpopulated. What they feel is that they are starved for capital. They look upon that great country-and it is a great country with a huge area many times that of all the British West Indies-as a potential field for a marriage between capital from North America and settlers from the West Indies. In any large long range plans for the development of this area and for the development of freer trade, I feel that our relations with Demerara and the relations of Demerara with the federation would require to be taken into account. In Demerara there is a vast hinterland and in the West Indies there are people who are nearest to it and who are already adapted to living in that part of the world.
I feel that in the whole field of external trade there is perhaps no more imaginative conception than that of bringing this whole area not merely within the trade orbit but within the financial and economic orbit of Canada. As has been pointed out over and over again in this debate on both sides of the house, in all quarters of the house, there is hardly a commodity produced in this area that is competitive with anything produced in Canada. They need our products and we need theirs. It is one of those rare things, an almost perfect combination. Moreover, there is a long tradition going back at least a 57071-3-158|
Canada-West Indies Trade couple of centuries and perhaps more; although perhaps when we go back beyond two centuries we would not want to revive some of the trade that existed at that time; but for two centuries there has been the kind of trade that we should like to see extended. There have been personal relationships between Canadians, particularly in the Atlantic provinces, and the people of the West Indies which play a large part in the development of trade.
There is, of course, the banking system of Canada already there. There is a long and excellent record of work done by the trade commissioner service of our own government. There are the constant visits back and forth. There are the thousands-and I am sure I do not exaggerate in using that word-of students who over the years have come from that area to attend our universities, some of whom, of course, get a taste for living in Canada when they come here and do not want to go back. None of us can blame them for that. But if we could do something to make the economic climate in that region such that these people would want to go back to develop a great new country for their own people, it seems to me that we would have there a conception of something that would be mutually fruitful both to us and to them.
These are some of the reasons. As I said when I began, I do not want to take an undue amount of time in repeating things that have been said just as well, if not better, by other members, some of them newcomers in the house. Once again may I say this. Perhaps it will not make much difference one way or another to the government of Canada whether or not we pass this resolution because the members of the government are, I believe, considering this problem anyway. It is inevitable that they are considering it and I think from the hints given to us by the Minister of Trade and Commerce they are seriously considering it, but it does seem to me that it would not have much effect one way or the other, so far as the government is concerned, if we pass this motion. But its effect on the country, particularly on the Atlantic provinces, in offering new hope to our people would infuse new vigour into the old search for mutual trade. It would also offer great hopes to the people of the Federation of the West Indies. This would be particularly so if the parliament of Canada unanimously adopted a resolution of this character. I am sure this would greatly strengthen the arm of the minister when he meets these people face to face in September, true, it will be in a rather unofficial capacity, but still he will meet them face to face. I have reference, of course, to the conference
2500	HOUSE OF
Canada-West Indies Trade in Montreal at which time he would be able to say to them, "I can talk to you frankly and freely because I know from the sentiments expressed on both sides of our parliament that we really want to do everything we can to develop closer economic ties and freer trade and we are willing to do everything necessary to realize this objective."
I think, having said this, that I should now take my seat in the hope that the debate will not be prolonged beyond the end of the present sitting and that we may unanimously register our approval of this proposition, which I am happy to say has so far found no dissenter in the house.


Mr. Bell (Saint John-Albert):: I wonder if I might ask the hon. member a question. May I say that I agree he has made some very good points in regard to the sugar situation but I would particularly like to know in reference to his comments on the difference in the rates for water transportation between the West Indies and Saint John and the West Indies and Montreal on raw sugar, if he will not admit that the federal government really has little, if any, responsibility in this matter at the present time?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would not want to get into any kind of argument with the hon. member for Saint John-Albert (Mr. Bell) on this subject because, to be quite honest about it, I do not know the answer to his question. I suspect, of course, that the rates set on the Canadian National ships, would be within the control of the Canadian government but the rates about which Mr. Hill the head of this company, was talking were probably not on Canadian National ships. I do not know who set them or upon what basis they were set. As I made quite clear both on Saturday and today, I do not even know for sure whether Mr. Hill's facts were correct and I do not pretend to have verified them. I suspect they are correct and I suspect they are probably set to be, in some degree, competitive but it would not be the first time that things had been done in a positive way by the Canadian government in order to overcome some of our disadvantages in the realm of transportation in the Atlantic provinces. Even if the government were to intervene-at least for a time-to set a rate which would be competitive, I am not sure that I would not perhaps be inclined to vote for that subsidy with perhaps a little more enthusiasm than with respect to others which from time to time we are called upon to approve in this house in order to keep the balance of the Canadian economy.


Thomas Miller Bell: May I ask
the hon. member how the federal government could intervene in respect to private shipping rates?


John Whitney Pickersgill: As a matter of fact, I might remind the hon. member for Saint John-Albert that the federal government intervenes very effectively in private shipping rates through the Maritime Freight Rates Act. That analogy is not, in my opinion, very wide of the mark.


Thomas Miller Bell: But this is water shipping.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I do not know that there is any real difference in principle between having a subsidy on shipping on water rather than on land. Indeed I would have thought there were many and hoarier precedents for subsidies on water transportation than there were on land transportation.


Mr. K. H. More (Regina City):: Mr. Speaker, in making this, my maiden contribution in this house, I hope you will permit me to extend to you my congratulations on the unanimous election to your position of first commoner. I do not want to have this remark on the record as a mere formality because, from my own observation since the opening of the session on May 12 last, I know that you fill your position with evidence of great character, with great tact, with ability to understand and to speak fluently in both languages used in this house and in a manner which brings confidence to a new and trembling member rising for the first time in this chamber. I know, sir, from my own observations that I shall receive from you guidance and, when necessary, discipline, which I will willingly accept. I would also at this time like to congratulate the Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sevigny) and the Deputy Chairman (Mr. Rea).
I do not intend to refer to all the things I have ferreted out in the library and from information obtained from the Department of Trade and Commerce, from the many periodicals at which I have looked and from the information already placed on the record. I do not think it is necessary to be on one's feet all the time permitted in order to accomplish one's objective and in so far as the facts which have been placed on the record with respect to this particular resolution are concerned, I am hoping that those facts will reduce the length of time during which I shall have to burden the house.
Coming from Regina, however, I was excited by this resolution because it had to do with trade, and I think it goes without saying that whether one is a Tory, a Liberal or a member of the C.C.F. trade is of paramount interest to all western members.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: Our economy in the west
demands that we be a trading nation and for many years the symbol of that economy has been the grain elevator. The horizons of western Canada today, I am glad to say, are changing because we now have in company with these grain elevators oil derricks and to that extent our economy has been diversified and further stabilized.
I have listened with a great deal of interest to the contributions with respect to this resolution. I wish to say quite frankly that when I first read the resolution and I realized that its sponsor came from a party which had been in power for 22 years I was very suspicious of it, suspicious as to the reason why it had been placed on the order paper at this time, and of the language in which it had been placed there. This was because for years I have not heard of Liberal members speaking in support of free trade but now that the Liberal party is out of office and sitting in the opposition benches its members are, one might say, taking their first opportunity to speak in support of free trade. This is when they have no responsibility as a government and when they can hit the press with big headlines and endeavour to maintain that old bogey that the Tory party is the party of high tariffs and the Liberal party is the party of free trade. That is something with which I completely disagree and I have been doing some research on this subject-


John Whitney Pickersgill: You will need it.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: I do not need perhaps to do too much more research work, and I hope to have an opportunity in the not too distant future to put on record the facts in connection with tariffs in Canada, the facts as to which party is the party of high tariffs and which is the party of low tariffs. To me it seems to be just common sense that tariffs should neither constitute a merit to one party or a demerit to another. All parties who have held power in this parliament of Canada have at times imposed tariffs, and over the years the tariff structure has grown; it is not, of course, just because we have had a Liberal government for these last 22 years. But I will not take up the time of the house now by going into this question. If I did go into detail I think I could put on record a story very different from the one we hear from time to time.
The part of this resolution which excited me, as I said, was the part dealing with trade, and that is what I want to speak about because I come from a city which is a great trading centre of the prairies, the queen city of the prairies. I do not see the hon. member
Canada-West Indies Trade for Calgary South (Mr. Smith) in his place, but I think it is the fastest growing city, percentage-wise of population, and it depends for its economic well-being on agriculture and on trade. In my researches I found that wheat flour plays a considerable part in the trade between Canada and the West Indies. It was hard to get exact figures. Certainly I do not pretend that my figures are correct as applied to the West Indian federation as it exists today. I found, while I was doing research, that many others were doing research too and that material which I needed was in the hands of others, and probably material which others needed was in my hands. But in regard to wheat flour, I found that in 1953 Canada exported 2,183,872 bags to the islands of the West Indies, while in the same year the United States exported 413,833 bags. In 1955, 2,147,047 bags entered from Canada and 1,195,000 from the United States. In 1957, 1,504,250 were exported from Canada and 1,760,969 from the United States.
It is easy to talk about this being a traditional market. In many instances, over the years, the tastes and requirements of the West Indies have changed, and that in turn has brought about changes in the amounts and values of some of these goods which they import from Canada. But as against a diminishing desire for some products there has been an increasing desire for wheat flour. In 1955, the market, according to the figures of exports from Canada and the United States alone, increased by 744,342 bags. The Canadian share of this market dropped by 36,825 bags and the United States share increased by 781,167 bags. In 1957, according to the figures I found, there was a decrease in the market, compared with 1955, of 76,828 bags. Canadian sales decreased 642,798 bags. United States sales in that same year increased by 565,969 bags despite the decrease in the overall market. Inasmuch as the figures indicate there is still a desire among the people of the West Indies for wheat flour, I would point out that we still have wheat in great surplus; we want to dispose of it to any market that requires it, provided we can trade honourably. Even though small quantities are concerned, we cannot afford to lose this opportunity.
I thought the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) made a very fine contribution to this debate. It seemed to me, in the course of his remarks, that it was notable that he probably does not agree with the precise wording of the resolution, because he seldom-perhaps only once or twice-spoke about free trade. In the main he used the

Canada-West Indies Trade phrase "freer trade". It seems to me it is impossible, by any unilateral action, to have free trade. It is probably impossible for bilateral action to ensure it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Would the hon. member permit a question? Did he fail to hear me when I said I should like to see tariffs between us wiped out.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: Yes, but I gathered from all your contributory remarks that you figured it was quite impossible.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am much more hopeful than that.


Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More: The hon. gentleman served in a government which was in power for many years, and he has witnessed the decline in Canadian flour exports, and I thought he was being more realistic. And now he is trying to disturb my remarks and draw me off the track.
I say in all seriousness that this is one instance where the agricultural people of the prairies can come here with a sound case and ask for co-operation and consideration from all people in Canada. We need this market for this flour, and, as I understand it, with one exception we have always shipped the very best grade of flour to this market. In the first instance the market demand was a demand for baking flour which was used by the industry there. Then the people began to buy what is called counter flour, and used it for making bannocks or whatever they might call them. Now, the United States is, I understand, supplying to that market a grade which they do not even offer on their own market, and they do it on a subsidized basis.
I wish to commend this government for standing up and tackling the problem which the United States disposal policy has presented in the traditional markets of Canada, and I do not know any more pointed example than this putting forward of a special grade of flour on a subsidized basis, as is done in this market. The loss of sales to Canada is certainly something to be alarmed about. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) quoted from a Canadian Bank of Commerce letter dated March 2, 1958. I think it is interesting that the hon. member should have quoted from that bank letter, because in my research I found-though it is possible that I may not be correct-that the first Canadian branch bank to be opened in the West Indies was established by the Canadian Bank of Commerce in 1889. I have quoted figures which show a decrease in Canadian participation in the wheat flour market of the West Indies. But statistics also show that Canada still continues to be a better customer of the West Indies than the United States. It has been

mentioned in the course of this debate that we give a preference of $1 on sugar, whereas I understand the United States does all it can to keep that sugar out. I point out to hon. gentlemen opposite, that good intentions alone will not give us this market. If it did, then I say we would have a bigger proportion of the Canadian wheat flour market because, according to my figures, we have maintained a better and larger ratio of imports from the West Indies than has the United States.
I have been disappointed in the debate on this point. The debate has been brought forward in a rather mild form of generalization by the hon. member who presented the resolution. Nowhere in the debate has any indication been given as to what would be the attitude of the West Indies toward a proposal of free trade with Canada. Surely to goodness if this resolution means all that it says it does it should be based on the benefits that accrue which would be mutually shared by both parties. Nowhere in the debate has this been mentioned.
There was much meat in the remarks made by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twill-ingate. We have a new federation within the commonwealth bestirring itself, seeking to be established and coming to the fore. This opens a great vista in the opinion of those of us who believe in trade. I am sure that is the view of all hon. members without regard to political affiliation and I am sure it is the desire of all of us to take the greatest possible advantage of it. I am sure this cannot be done by this government alone nor can it be done by any government alone. To take the fullest advantage of it will require the complete co-operation of government, business, and indeed all individuals and producers alike.
I do not wish to prolong the debate and I have no further information to place on the record but before winding up my short presentation I wish to comment on one thing that was said by the hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith) who proposed the resolution which rather struck my fancy. I do not know if in fact anything can be perfect but the hon. gentleman said that this resolution is politically perfectly timed. We are about to witness the birth of a new federation within the commonwealth and if the hon. member had gone a little further I would say that I completely agree with his remark that the resolution is politically perfectly timed because today we have in power on the treasury benches a government which is dedicated to expanding trade. We have a Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Churchill) who is ever watchful and eager to seize any proper opportunity to expand Canada's trade. I know that we can depend on him to bring forward

a policy that will benefit not only Canada but the Federation of the West Indies, soon to be a new member of the commonwealth.
To that degree and with that qualification I agree fully with the proposer of this resolution and it would have my support if he had phrased it a little differently. But I am suspicious of this resolution being proposed on the subject of free trade by a member of the party to which the hon. member for Ottawa West belongs. If he had proposed that this government be alert and use its efforts for expanding trade between Canada and the West Indies I could support the resolution 100 per cent.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Well, you cannot expect miracles.


Mr. Smith (Calgary South):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the hon. member a question before he takes his seat. He made a certain reference with respect to the growth of Canadian cities. I wonder if he would be kind enough to give us the source of that information?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that this is wholly out of order.


An hon. Member:: How do you spell
"wholly"?
(Translation):


Mr. Rodrigue Bourdages (Laval):: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to tell you that it is with some misgivings that I rise to speak in this house. Having been elected for the first time on March 31st last, I know that I am necessarily lacking in experience but the wish to serve the voters of my riding of Laval, who put their trust in me, is giving me the confidence any representative of the people has to feel to remain worthy of the name.
Mr. Speaker, the matter now before us must be of interest to all Canadians. Indeed, trade with another country is considered an important part of our economy, and I believe it is not too soon to say to hon. members that I am in favour of free trade with that country, if we take essential precautions for the protection of both nations.
However, before proceeding any further, I should like, if I may, recall briefly the historical background of the trade agreements between Canada and the West Indies. I read this from an article which appeared in Foreign Trade, a fortnightly publication of the Department of Trade and Commerce. In this issue of January 4, 1958, Miss M. V. McCormick, of the international trades relation branch writes as follows:
Canada has a long history of trade with the West Indies, stretching back well over 200 years. We
Canada-West Indies Trade have sold them principally flour, fish, other foodstuffs, and lumber:	they have sold us sugar,
molasses, lumber, spices and tropical fruits. In recent years the trade has taken on a more varied complexion: bauxite, alumina and petroleum have been coming to us from the West Indies and we have been sending them a wide variety of manufactured goods.
In the last twenty years this trade has grown in size as well as in scope. Just before the Second World War the total trade with the West Indies, both imports and exports, reached $33 million. By 1956, it had increased to $113 million, with our exports to the West Indies totalling $49 million and our imports from the islands $64 million. Figures for the first nine months of 1957 show exports to the West Indies at $35 million and imports from the West Indies for the first six months of 1957 at $40 million, a substantial rise over the 1956 figure.
The close trading relations between Canada and the British West Indies over the years are the result of several factors. The economies of the two areas are largely complementary and the areas themselves are not far apart, geographically speaking. In addition, three successive trade agreements have provided a framework for the building-up of this trade.
At the turn of the century, the British West Indies lost its sugar market in the United States and became interested in the possibility of selling sugar in Canada instead. At that time, total Canada-B.W.I. trade had an annual value of less than $5 million and both sides wanted to increase it. This feeling, plus the desire for Empire solidarity within the Imperial Preferential Tariff system, paved the way for the first Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement of 1912.
The 1912 agreement gave Canada preferential rates of duty of four-fifths of the general tariff on specified goods and provided that some British West Indian products, notably sugar, would receive corresponding preferential treatment in Canada. In 1920, this agreement was replaced by a broader one under which preferences applied to all dutiable goods on both sides, with a few exceptions. Canada gave the British West Indies a tariff preference of 50 per cent on all dutiable articles other than tobacco, cigars, cigarettes and spirituous or alcoholic liquors.
A third and more extensive trade agreement, the one now in force, was signed on July 6, 1925, and came into operation on April 30, 1927. This agreement broadened the exchange of preferences still further and made various special provisions for individual products and for individual colonies. It provided that import duties on Canadian products may not exceed certain percentages of the mostfavoured-nation rates. These percentages vary in different colonies:	for example, they may not
exceed 50 per cent in Barbados, British Guiana and Trinidad, or 75 per cent in Jamaica. For a few other products-notably flour, dairy products, meat, fish, apples, potatoes and alcoholic beverages- specified margins of preference that were set forth in the agreement were granted to imports from Canada. In fact, virtually every product imported from Canada received some tariff preference.
For its part, Canada granted free entry to a number of British West Indian products and consolidated margins of preference on most dutiable imports, including sugar. The most important preference was that on raw sugar when im-

Canada-West Indies Trade
ported by refiners for refining in Canada. The bound margin of preference on 96-degree sugar was increased to $1.00 per 100 pounds under the 1927 agreement, and other raw sugar imported by refiners received equivalent preferential treatment. Other important products on which Canada granted preferences were bananas, cocoa beans, rum, coffee and spices. In addition, Canada gave a general undertaking that the duty on all goods imported from the West Indies but not specifically enumerated in the agreement would at no time exceed 50 per cent of the general tariff of Canada.
This agreement was to remain in force for twelve years. However, because of the war it was renewed in 1939 for an indefinite period. It may be terminated on six months' notice.
As we can see, Mr. Speaker, the trade situation between Canada and the British West Indies is not too bad. On the other hand, I say that there is room for improvement and that Canada could find profit in intensifying this trade.
In the same publication, Mr. Rex Stoll-meyer, trade commissioner for the British West Indies, British Guiana and British Honduras, in Montreal, writes this:
The hope that Canadians will avail themselves of investment opportunities and incentives in the British West Indies is based on three factors. In the first place, Canadian investment will contribute to Caribbean development and this in turn will increase trade and West Indian purchases of Canadian exports. Second, investment in the West Indies has particular advantages for Canadians. Hitherto investment in the small, fragmentary markets has not been attractive. Under customs union and free trade conditions in the next few years a British Caribbean market of three million will emerge, a circumstance which is already stimulating investment interest. Branch plants in the Carribbean could serve as bases for distribution within the area and to the adjacent Latin American countries. More important, plants established in these soft currency territories could serve other commonwealth areas without encountering the currency problems faced by home-based Canadian exporters. Another approach would be for semi-finished products to be sent to plants in the area for the final stages of manufacture.
Secondly, the tourist potentialities of the area are far from fully developed and in some territories are almost completely unexploited.
Finally, there is a persistent and considerable amount of Canadian interest in the British West Indies which has always lent grace to the trading relationship. The West Indies hopes soon to be the second Dominion in the New World, a development which ought to lead to a maturing of this long-established and reciprocated sentiment. Much has been said about the complementary nature of the two economies from the point of view of both trade and investment. Nothing could be more conducive to Canada-West Indies solidarity than that trade between the two areas should grow. This will require greater West Indian purchasing power through development. And Canada could contribute to that development through sustained imports from the area, an inflow of tourists, and the injection of investment capital in industrial development and the tourist trade.
However, before explaining the part played by Canadian capital in trade with the British

West Indies, Mr. Stollmeyer had carefully recommended the following encouragement to investments:
Over-riding requirements for a viable West Indian economy (itself a prerequisite for autonomy) are capital and know-how. Currently the territories are making efforts of varying degrees of intensity to improve their agriculture, to encourage industrial development, and to stimulate the tourist trade. In the two latter fields, greater attention is being given to attracting capital from overseas. Several inducements are being offered to investors in industry. All the territories allow new or underdeveloped industries periods of freedom from income tax ranging from five to seven years, with duty-free import of plant, equipment and machinery for such "pioneer industries". In addition, some territories, notably Trinidad, offer special rates of depreciation following the "tax holiday"; these are calculated to ease the impact of income tax. Jamaica goes farther, with an Export Industry Encouragement Law which affords duty-free entry of raw materials in addition to the usual income tax and duty concessions to companies manufacturing solely for export. An International Business Companies Law provides perpetual freedom from income tax for business companies not trading in the British West Indies, British Guiana and British Honduras.
The tourist industry has become a major source of revenue, and particularly of dollars, for the British West Indies as a result of the great number of Canadians and Americans visiting the islands. Prospects for expansion are excellent. Promotion programs are constantly under way to increase the flow of tourists throughout the year. The tourist interests of all the territories are represented by the office of the trade commissioner in Montreal -with the exception of British Guiana, which has separate representation, and Jamaica, which maintains a tourist bureau in Toronto.
Recent years have brought great pressure on resort facilities in the British West Indies. Local investment in tourist accommodation has increased and considerable overseas capital has come into Jamaica and, to a somewhat lesser degree, into Barbados and Trinidad. The pace of investment in the area as a whole, however, has not been quick enough and some of the territories have passed incentive legislation aimed at encouraging it. Generally speaking, this legislation offers freedom from income tax during initial stages of operation, plus freedom from import duty on capital equipment. Three territories-British Guiana, Jamaica and Trinidad-publish attractive booklets describing development conditions and outlining inducements for investment in industry and the tourist trade.
Mr. Speaker, those are a few opinions I have gathered from authorities on the matter we are considering. I feel that if we read this material it will help us give better and fuller consideration to the matter of trade with the British West Indies in order that the greatest possible number of Canadians may benefit from this market which, in the long run, will prove very interesting for the whole of Canada.

(Text):


Mr. R. S. MacLellan (Inverness-Richmond):: In rising on this resolution, Mr. Speaker, I am mindful, as have been the other members who spoke here this afternoon, of how important is our trade with the West Indies. In 1957 it provided the second largest market Canada had in the British commonwealth of nations, surpassed only by our exports to the United Kingdom. In 1956 we sold $49 million worth of products in the West Indies. In 1957 our export trade totalled over $61 million. This market is all the more important when it is recalled that about 85 per cent of the goods that Canada sells in the West Indies can be classed as manufactured or semimanufactured. By comparison only 15 per cent to 20 per cent of the goods we sell to the United Kingdom are manufactured or semi-manufactured. As an example, we sell wheat to the United Kingdom, whereas we sell flour to the West Indies. About 10 per cent of all Canadian flour finds a market there. Other manufactured goods that we sell to the federation consist of boots and shoes, paint, small furniture, machinery, rubber goods, steel pipes and tubes, fittings and other similar products.
Many of our products which we find it more difficult to sell in the more highly developed parts of the world are able to find a market in the British West Indies because these islands are not yet industrialized and they are not attempting, so much as other countries, to protect home industries. Our trade with the West Indies is very important to every part of Canada. The west coast sells lumber and canned salmon; the prairies sell flour; Ontario and Quebec sell a large variety of manufactured goods. But the participation of so many maritime members in this debate today, is evidence of how important the Atlantic provinces regard this market. We, in the eastern provinces, think it holds a special attraction for us. At the moment we sell a large quantity of fish in the West Indies. Our sales have increased from about $900,000 in 1937, to $3.5 million in 1947 and to $6.1 million in 1955. We also find a market there for apples, potatoes and other foodstuffs, and for some manufactured products such as boots and shoes. We hope to be able to increase our sales and our present exports to the West Indies of these non-manufactured goods.
However, the great prospect so far as we are concerned of this West Indian market is a sale for manufactured goods as maritime industry expands. As hon. members all know,
Canada-West Indies Trade the chief problem that faces the Atlantic provinces today is the problem of industrialization. We must manufacture goods in our provinces, to provide employment there and to increase the gross product of our provinces. Before confederation, the Atlantic provinces could sell in two directions. They could sell to the people in the West Indies and to the cities of the United States; and, they could sell up the St. Lawrence to Ontario and Quebec. Indeed, prior to confederation we enjoyed a very favourable geographical position astride the main shipping lanes and water routes from Montreal and Quebec, to eastern United States cities and to the ports of the West Indies. The ports of Halifax and Saint John and Louisburg were midway ports where sailing ships could stop to be refitted and supplied. This was a very important trade in the early days of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Then, suddenly the east-west traffic that developed as a result of confederation cut off the advantage of the maritimes in this traffic between eastern United States and West Indian ports and Ontario and Quebec. When manufacturing capital came into Canada it came into the central provinces for the very simple reason that the more central location made it possible for factories there to sell east and west. At the same time the factories in the maritimes could not compete with the factories on the scene in Ontario and Quebec. Of course, the transportation edge that the central provinces had, meant the decline of industries that flourished in the maritimes before confederation, and an ever increasing lack of opportunity.
Any manufacturer who wishes to establish an industry, must first of all look to his local and domestic market to build up primary sales which are his "bread and butter". If he has a good local market where he is sheltered his primary profits at home will build up his capital and establish him. Then after his industry has had a chance to root he can look for wider markets in other areas to increase his profits. Our problem in the Atlantic provinces has been that we do not have a sufficient local market to allow our infant industries to root. They must, from the first, enter into the highly competitive Ontario-Quebec market.
In terms of this geographical situation the possibility of a market in the West Indies is a very interesting prospect for the Atlantic provinces. We are 1,000 miles closer to the West Indies markets than are the factories in the Montreal area; about 1,200 miles closer

Canada-West Indies Trade than the factories in eastern Ontario. We should be able to manufacture and sell goods to the 3.5 million people who live in the British West Indies cheaper than similar goods can be sold by other Canadian factories. We should be able also to bring goods to this market cheaper than they can be brought from the United Kingdom. It is true that the annual income of the people in the West Indies is not high. This market can absorb only a limited quantity of Canadian goods from any area. Nevertheless, added to the population of the Atlantic provinces, the 3.5 million people in this federation will greatly increase our chance of a sufficiently sheltered primary market to give industries in the eastern provinces an opportunity to develop.
It is certainly to the advantage of our Atlantic provinces in particular that Canada should develop trade with the West Indies federation, and that these islands should prosper and increase in wealth. It is obvious that Canada would be unable to compete in this West Indian market at all if it were not for the preferential tariff that we enjoy. United States factories can produce cheaper. They are closer, and without the preferential tariff assistance we could not place goods to any considerable degree in this West Indian market. Even now the value of the goods we sell there does not approximate what is being sold by United States industries. Every year the United States sells the islands considerably more manufactured goods than we do, despite our preferential tariff.
Our goods do find a market in the West Indies, because we have this preferential agreement and simply because we buy more goods from the West Indies than does the United States. Nearly 80 per cent of the exports of Barbados and 40 per cent of the exports of Jamaica consist of sugar and molasses. About 70 per cent of these products is purchased by the United Kingdom, and a large amount of the remaining 30 per cent is purchased by Canada.
Since 1903 the United States has given special tariff preference to Cuba, the Phil-lipines, Puerto Rico and Hawaii. When the West Indies were denied an American sugar market, they turned to Canada. Our trade with the Caribbean countries has stemmed from the fact that we have purchased their sugar. In recent years, of course, the discovery of bauxite deposits in British Guiana and later in Jamaica, from which most or a large part of the aluminum that is produced in Canada is made, greatly increased our trade with the West Indies.
There can be no question that we can greatly increase our exports to the British West Indies if we give proper care and attention to this market. In 1947 we sold
[Mr. MacLellan.l
$61 million worth of products in the British West Indies. By 1950 the value of our exports had fallen sharply to $21 million. The figure has been improving steadily since then but still at $51 million, it is far from the amount that we sold to the British West Indies in 1947. We should be able to improve our export position in the British West Indies very substantially yet.
Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree, as is proposed by the resolution, that we should eliminate or at least decrease our tariff with the British West Indies as a method of expanding our trade in that area. While I support the resolution, I am aware that there are great obstacles to its fulfilment. One of the difficulties, as has been mentioned, is the fact that the federation has not yet achieved a tariff agreement or a customs union and each of the islands still has its own customs system. To do business with the federation on that basis would be very difficult. The commission on trade and tariffs set up under the chairmanship of Sir William Croft has not yet submitted its findings as a result of its inquiry into the tariff and customs problems of the area. No doubt any move towards free trade with these islands would have to await the adoption of that report and the accomplishment of a customs union among the islands.
I also realize, Mr. Speaker, that it is doubtful that the islands or the British West Indies federation could remove all tariffs. As we all know these islands, like many other undeveloped areas, do not have the same tax sources to rely upon as we have. There is no substantial income tax possibility in the British West Indies and an important part of the revenue of each of the governments that administrates these islands is from tariffs and customs. It is very doubtful if they or even the federation could agree to eliminate all tariffs since such a large part of the revenue of the federation, as formerly to the governments of the islands, comes from tariffs and customs duties.
There is another very serious consideration as far as we are concerned, Mr. Speaker, that I recognize will have to be faced if this resolution were adopted. I refer to the fact that further or more complete free trade or a more complete trade union with the British West Indies federation could imperil other important markets we have in the Caribbean area. We have in Cuba and in other countries in that area important markets which we could possibly lose if we entered into an agreement with the British West Indies which made it too difficult for these other countries to sell to us. These markets, have to some extent been much

more important to us than the British West Indies market. For example, while our fish exports to the British West Indies are important, we cannot afford to have our markets in the other islands there cut ofE.
In the three years from 1954 to 1956 our average fish sales in the Caribbean area totalled $14,096,000. Of this amount 62 per cent found markets in non-British Caribbean countries, while only 38 per cent was sold to the British West Indies. It can easily be seen that the 62 per cent we sell to nonBritish countries is too important a market as far as the Atlantic provinces are concerned for us to take any risk of losing it or impeding it. Furthermore, our market in the non-British West Indies is oftentimes more lucrative than is our market in the British West Indies. As hon. members all know, over the last few years our sales of salt fish in the British West Indies have not been as lucrative as they could be or as they have been in non-British countries. The whole matter will have to receive serious study. I say, of course, that I support the resolution and that the matter of freer trade with the British West Indies is important not only to the Atlantic provinces but to all of Canada.
There is another thing that we must face with regard to trade with the West Indies. It is not simply a matter of our reducing or eliminating tariffs to see our trade suddenly increased tenfold with the British West Indies. The simple fact is that if we are going to have a larger trade with these islands we must be prepared to buy more from them. At the moment the chief disadvantage to trading with the islands is not so much tariffs as it is quotas limiting our sales to them. The islands' purchases of our products must be limited by our purchases from them. Despite the preferential tariff that we have, Canadian goods going into the West Indies meet a quota system that puts an arbitrary limit on the amount of goods that we can sell there. The only way in which we can conquer that difficulty is to assist the West Indies to find a larger market for goods in Canada.
In the case of molasses, ginger, nutmegs, lime juice and arrowroot, the colonies now sell to about half the Canadian market. They have half the market in regard to these products. But they supply only 10 per cent of our cocoa and less than 1 per cent of our coffee. We could greatly increase our purchases of coffee and cocoa, and of course we could greatly increase our purchases of bananas and citrus fruits. Prior to 1939 we bought half of our bananas from the British West Indies. The war, hurricanes and plant disease brought this trade to an end. Since
Canada-West Indies Trade the war, producers in Central America have captured the market here and efforts to reintroduce Jamaican bananas have been unsuccessful. The simple fact is that the large banana market that the West Indies once had in Canada was lost and the producers of bananas in that area do not now have the funds or the ability with which to build up in Canada a distribution system that could sell their bananas here. No matter how much we should like to help them in that regard, their products have to be warehoused and sold to the wholesaler and of course ultimately to the consumers. At the moment the banana market in Canada is tied up by a large United States complex that produces this product in Central America, and it would be quite a problem for the West Indies federation to increase its market in Canada for this very important product of the islands.
Mr. Speaker, over the last 200 years our trade and our relations with the British West Indies have been very important to Canada. We in the Atlantic provinces in particular are tied to them with friendly memories that are as old as the settlement of the Atlantic provinces and as old as the cities of the east. Our economies are not competitive. The products that they grow, such as citrus fruits and fruits of the tropical variety, are not products that we can grow here. We can provide a market here, if we wish to do so, for the products of the West Indies. At the same time the products that we grow in this temperate climate in Canada are not such as can be grown in the British West Indies. We should be able to find a greatly increased market there for products which they do not grow well and which are not indigenous to that climate. We should be able to increase our sales of potatoes, beef and many other similar products in the Caribbean area but it is most important that we should not think the only thing we need to do in order to increase our sales to the West Indies federation is to decrease or eliminate our tariffs.
The tariff is only a very small part of the problem. Before we can enter into a free trade relationship or greatly increase our trade with the federation it must have a chance to settle down, to form its customs union and to gain strength as a nation. A federation formed this year can hardly be expected all at once to achieve a solution to all the internal problems which it faces, many of which are an impediment to its trade with the outside world, particularly with Canada. We must wait, therefore, for many of these problems to be overcome.

Canada-West Indies Trade
The trade carried on between the West Indies and Britain is very vital to the federation. The grants and aid of the United Kingdom over the years have kept the island governments in revenue. We cannot expect to cut too sharply into the extensive trade between the islands and the United Kingdom until the federation has reached a point where it is more self-sufficient. Certainly I support this resolution and I feel it is greatly in the interests of Canada generally and in the interests of my part of the country in particular to see trade fostered and increased in that area. We should assist the new federation in any way we can and by so doing I believe we will be making a great investment for Canada.


Mr. E. L. Morris (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, the taller member for Halifax (Mr. McCleave) has already taken part in this debate and I have no wish therefore, on the short end of the Tory ticket, to defer the consideration by the house of the resolution before us. There are, however, two observations I wish to make which I will illustrate with some factual material from one industry which I know has captivated the attention of many hon. members today. I have in mind the fisheries industry.
It seems to me that while the resolution in its present wording is attractive, here is a field in which we should make haste slowly. The institution of free trade cannot, alas, be brought about by resolutions and as the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond (Mr. MacLellan) has just pointed out, there are sizeable obstacles in the way of this particular resolution, primarily having to do with matters of currency but also with respect to the present negotiations within the West Indies for its own customs union. *Without any finality in this respect we cannot anticipate an early or an agreeable settlement of the trade problems which exist between this country and the West Indies.
There are also important problems concerning the several branches of Canadian industry which are not supplementary to West Indies industry and which should be carefully considered before we advance too hasitly into something which may look at the moment and may in time prove to be attractive, but which at present has in its way many difficulties.
We on this side of the house are mindful of the fact that one of the surest tests of friendship-as we were reminded the other day in this very house by the President of the United States-is the capacity to speak frankly. While free trade between Canada and the West Indies may be desirable as a goal it ought not to be overlooked that there


are problems to solve and if we intend to provide for the people of the West Indies that comradeship in the British tradition which they seek in a divided world and for which they have looked in the first instance to Canada, then we ought to be able to deal frankly and candidly with them in respect of our present trading problems.
The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillin-gate (Mr. Pickersgill) in a very informative speech this evening mentioned many other matters including the desirability of a federal subsidy-if I understood him correctly- which would equalize the shipping costs on Newfoundland salt fish with that of Nova Scotia.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I am sure the hon. gentleman must have misunderstood me. I did not suggest a subsidy for that purpose at all; I did suggest that if Canadian National steamships could be operated from Halifax and St. John's as well then presumably the rate would be equalized.


Edmund Leverett Morris: I am very sorry, I did misunderstand the hon. gentleman.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think the question of a subsidy came up in connection with the rate on sugar to Saint John in New Brunswick.


Edmund Leverett Morris: Yes, of course it did. I am sorry and I understand the clarification now made. However, the hon. member will agree that this matter of subsidies has been presented before, indeed recently in the other place, and I would like to refer to the St. John's Telegram of July 2, a newspaper with which I am sure the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate is fully familiar, which quoted a political friend of his as having said in the other place that a federal subsidy is, in effect, desirable in order to equalize shipping costs. It is upon that point, in any event, which I wish to dwell at this moment.
I do not think it is widely understood that the matter of federal subsidies came up several times while the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships were operating. The equalization of freight rates from St. John's and Halifax to the Caribbean market might be a serious blow to Nova Scotia fish exporters and we would like to have this borne in mind with respect to consideration of future trade relationships between the two areas. It is, for instance, true that about 75 per cent, or perhaps more, of the salt fish we now process in Nova Scotia and export to the Caribbean actually originates in Newfoundland in its salt bulk state. This fish is brought into Nova Scotia as salt bulk fish at a very substantial freight cost to our exporters and, what is more, freight is required to be paid on each 165 pounds of wet produce which

ultimately comes down to 100 pounds of dried fish. This great cost is an additional expenditure borne by the Nova Scotia salt fish dealer, so that we have a higher freight rate than Newfoundland has in respect of shipments of dried salt cod to the Caribbean, that is, higher via Halifax. Therefore equalization of freight rates such as suggested in the other place would, we think, put our Nova Scotia exporters or could put them at a very serious disadvantage in competing on fish sales to the Caribbean.
I do not think it is widely understood, furthermore, that the people of the West Indies are not the largest importers of Canadian fish in the Caribbean area. Perhaps the erroneous impression has been given this afternoon that the West Indies are Canada's most important salt and pickled fish market. The British West Indies are not Canada's most important salt and pickled fish market. That is, not in the Caribbean. In all, the non-British West Indies market takes about 60 per cent of Canada's salt and pickled dried fish.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. gentleman means "non-British" does he not?


Edmund Leverett Morris: I was just coming to that point. The non-British takes 60 per cent and the British portion takes only 40 per cent. That is, the percentage of our exports going to the British West Indies territories in the Caribbean is 40 per cent. Without taking into account the higher per capita earnings of the consumers and the higher standard of living in the various countries of the British West Indies or, if you wish, the entire Caribbean area, the combined population of the British West Indies is between three million and three and a half million. But the combined population of Cuba, Haiti, Puerto Rico, Panama and the Dominican Republic is over 15 million, and in advocating free trade with the British West Indies we should have regard to the fact that the total consumer population there is only one-fifth of the population of the non-British part of the Caribbean. Jamaica has traditionally been the largest of the British West Indian markets, with imports in the area of 17 million pounds of salt cod annually, and it is upon this point that I wish to dwell for a moment.
This Jamaican market involves a consumer price ceiling at the present time; a consumer price ceiling which, as far as the Canadian fisherman is concerned, prevents the normal laws of supply and demand from functioning. For instance, at this moment, while we are debating here, mackerel is in short supply on the Canadian east coast. Yet the Jamaican market, by imposing a consumer price ceiling, prevents the normal play
Canada-West Indies Trade of the law of supply and demand, and, in effect, deprives Canadian fishermen of the price increase which they would normally expect to result from the short supply reaching the market. This consumer price ceiling on the Canadian salt cod is a hand-down, a carry-over from the second world war, but it still exists; the price ceiling in Jamaica, has in fact, in recent months been lower than it was four or five years ago, so the law of supply and demand does not operate fully, and for years Canadian fishermen have not been able, when exporting to this consumer price ceiling market, to take normal advantage of short supplies. In addition, there was a single price for all five sizes of the product which we export.
Mr. Speaker, in assessing the desirability of moving toward a free trade complex with the West Indies I should like to suggest to the government that consideration be given to the fact that some hon. members feel that the maintenance of these price ceilings is not entirely compatible with the present preferential trade advantage which we give to such countries as Jamaica, for instance. We find, for example, that under the Canada-British West Indies trade agreement the Canadian import duty on raw sugar imported from Jamaica is now 28 cents per 100 pounds as compared with $1.28 per hundred pounds on sugar exported to Canada from such countries as Cuba and the Dominican Republic. I suggest that hon. members from Nova Scotia representing fishing groups such as exist in my own large constituency may well feel that granting this preferential trade, which I am sure is a desirable thing in the eyes of the mover of this resolution, to the British West Indies producers has in fact led to the curtailment of the sales of our Canadian salt and pickled fish in the Jamaican market. In 1926, before the Canada-British West Indies treaty was proclaimed, Canadian fish entered Cuba, for instance, at a duty of $1.30 per 100 kilos. In 1930, I find, Cuba raised the duty to $3 and increased it again two years later to $5.50. The rate of duty today is $4 per 100 kilos.
I should like to suggest to the government and to the minister who will be most concerned with this resolution before us that in considering what has been said here today he should take into account that if there is to be a continuation of preferential trade, or an expansion of it; if there is to be a continuation of the present tariff preferences by Canada to the West Indies, that these tariff preferences be bargained against the elimination of or the reduction in the number of consumer price ceilings on the product which we try to export. We think that there are

Canada-West Indies Trade discriminatory restrictive controls on the import into Jamaica of certain Canadian products. I have in mind, especially, the Jamaican ceiling on salt cod. And I believe it is true that instead of there being any widespread indication of a change in the attitude of the Jamaican government in regard to this matter, the government of Jamaica did in fact negotiate this year, as the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate well knows, for the purchase of 3,000 tons of salt cod from Iceland, and this after years of preferential treatment in our markets. This is a considerable amount, more than one-third of the normal importation of salt cod in Jamaica.
Some of us feel that it is not unreasonable to ask the government to consider, in extending preferential trade agreements or in continuing them in their present form, and having regard to the traditions of British fair play and British friendship and candour, to consider the fact that sometimes these preferential trade arrangements as steps along the way to free trade sometimes do not work out in practice as the words in the resolution suggest they will.
The association of fish dealers in Nova Scotia has computed that in 1956, the last year for which comparable statistics in all fields of trade were available, the total dollar value of all the salt and pickled fish that we Canadians sold in the Jamaican market alone ran to about $3,250,000. By virtue of the sugar preference alone, the Jamaican sugar industry received in preferential treatment what amounts to a figure over $2,500,000. That is more than would have been realized if, for instance, the $1 per 100 pounds preference had not existed; that is, if it had been eliminated entirely. One could say, expressing it another way,-although this probably suffers some of the exaggeration of brevity- that the Canadian government would have been worse off only to the extent of about $350,000 in that full calendar year 1956 if it had donated the salted and pickled fish that Jamaica purchased from Canada instead of giving the sugar preference at all. So that preferential trade has not always worked to the full advantage of the Canadian industry.
Nothing that I have said in giving this as one illustration is intended in any way to diminish the placidity with which this debate has been conducted today. It has been free of partisan rancour. We have all tried to give expression to what is foremost in our minds and that is the good of the people whom we were sent here to represent in the first place, and the good of all Canadians, in the second. If I have made any point at all it is the simple one of using the argument of the impact of trading relationships upon the industry in

my area; indeed the desirability in these matters of making haste slowly.
I should like to suggest to the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Churchill) that at some future time when he is considering the complex of trade delegations to markets as important to hon. members on all sides of the house as is Jamaica-which I understand according to the press a trade delegation may visit next February-


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member would permit a question. Has he seen the statement that was made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce during the course of the discussion of his estimates when he offered us very great hope that the Jamaican situation was going to be cleared up? I am sure we all share that hope and none of us would want to say anything here that would make the minister's task more difficult.


Edmund Leverett Morris: Mr. Speaker, I am not unmindful of what the minister said here about the desirability and the imminence of an early improvement in the Jamaican relationship but surely the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate does not suggest for one moment that this improvement in that relationship be achieved in the manner in which his group used to achieve satisfactory relations in the front benches by the imposition of censorship upon the back benches. I have made certain statements in the interests of my constituents. They are offered in the best of good faith. Since I am not a member of the treasury benches, nothing I could say could possibly do other than contribute to the fair and frank exchange of opinions. I am even prepared to suggest that what I said tonight may very well be wrong but it was not said with the intention of misleading the house nor in the belief that it was wrong. I have merely explained one transitory condition along the way to a desirable goal. This is of importance to me because it is of importance to my constituency-


John Whitney Pickersgill: And also to mine.


Edmund Leverett Morris: -and to fishermen all along the coast. It is also important to Newfoundland fishermen-


John Whitney Pickersgill: It certainly is.


Edmund Leverett Morris: -who have lost a goodly part of their market. By way of final comment I wanted to make a point which I believe the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate has made for me by his interjection and that is that the problem of international trade, like many other problems, cannot be solved satisfactorily by the glossing over of words. What is required is that in moving toward

a more desirable and prosperous trade for our people and for all peoples we should have in mind that there are problems along the way, and that the satisfactory way to solve these problems between mutual and trusting friends is to do so frankly and in the open light of day.


Mr. M. J. A. Lambert (Edmonton West):: Mr. Speaker, today we have heard speakers mostly from the eastern regions of Canada and perhaps hon. members would wonder why a member from western Canada should rise to speak on this particular subject. In reply to that question I would say that coming from a surplus producing region of this country-like hon. members from various other sections of western Canada-we have an inclination toward free trade or trade that is as free as possible because we fully realize that if we are to dispose of our surplus products we would prefer having not to contend with any artificial barriers, or as few as possible of these.
The resolution before us this evening strikes me as being rather premature and while I perhaps fully apprehend the motives of the hon. member who proposed the resolution I am wondering whether he has achieved his true intention, whether he wanted free trade with the Federation of the West Indies. I would have thought that the hon. member would have recognized that in the foreseeable future and until world economic and sociological conditions change such a goal would be unattainable.
There are certainly some very practical obstacles to free trade with the Federation of the West Indies and indeed with many other countries although we would perhaps be governed by the particular trading position we were in when deciding about the desirability of free trade of this kind. First of all there is the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. Since we are tied in with many other Carribean countries-as is the United States which in particular has extensive interests in Central America and the Caribbean region-we could not possibly enter a free trade agreement without very wide and sweeping amendments to the GATT. I would suggest that at this time the obstacles would be insurmountable.
Then, too, the matter of free trade is not something that can be imposed by one country on another. Perhaps we would be prepared to consider free trade but we must first know what is the position of the Federation of the West Indies in this connection. They are possibly the newest entity in the commonwealth but so new are they that they have not even worked out a free trade arrangement among themselves. Before free trade between Canada and the West Indies
Canada-West Indies Trade would be possible, I suggest that they would require to have their domestic situation sorted out. I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that their own problems will not be solved tomorrow.
I agree that there is a field in which Canadian trade can be developed to a considerable extent in the future, but until they are prepared to deal with us how can we be in a position to enter into such an agreement as is proposed by this resolution? They would have to work out a customs union amongst themselves or do as we do here in Canada where we have at least nominally free trade among the provinces. I would suggest that there may be some obstacles to interprovincial trade but our constitution says that there should not be. However, that is not too apparent in some cases.
Then, there is another difficulty. The West Indies federation operates within the sterling bloc, and that presents an immediate problem. The federation is not the master of its own ship in matters of its currency convertibility. We are dealing at the present time, in so far as the West Indies are concerned, with quantity restrictions. Imports from Canada are limited by quantity restrictions.
However, it is interesting to look at the trade statistics for 1957. We find that those colonies within the commonwealth, which now make up the Federation of the West Indies, sold goods to Canada to the total value of a little over $58 million in 1957, but we sold to them only $40 million worth. Since we are considering this matter, I would say that a number of members and quite a few of the Canadian public, along with myself, were rather surprised at those figures. They would have believed-I certainly assumed it before I made my investigation-that we had sold a great deal more to the federation than we imported from them, but such was not the case. Our greatest single import, of course, is aluminum bauxite from Jamaica. Then we have sugar and sugar products, particularly raw sugar.
To get back to what benefit would result in greater trade with the West Indies, or what benefit could be derived from greater trade with the Federation of the West Indies, in addition to the untold quantities of fish of which we have heard a good deal this afternoon and this evening, they could absorb agricultural products from western Canada in the form of flour particularly and perhaps meats. With the advent of the St. Lawrence seaway and a lower cost on the transportation of wheat I believe that we could certainly compete advantageously in the West Indies market with our flour. However, there we have certain competition from our friends across the line who in latter years have

Canada-West Indies Trade shown that they too consider this to be an opportune market and they are prepared to be very competitive about it.
We in western Canada find ourselves at the greatest possible distance from the source of citrus fruits. I had always wondered why it was necessary to buy most of our citrus fruits from California, Texas, Louisiana and Florida, and why we did not see any from the West Indies. I am told-and here I am merely going on hearsay-that there is a question of quality control; that naturally as far as western Canada is concerned the cost of transportation of certain types of citrus fruits would be high. However, with the improvement in refrigeration and the possibilities of bringing in cargoes of fresh fruit under refrigerated conditions to the lake-head and then by rail to the various markets of western Canada, I think there is an opportunity there. However, that is to come in the future.
As I have said, Mr. Speaker, what I suspect is that the aim of the hon. member who proposed this resolution is not so much free trade with the Federation of the West Indies as the expansion of trade with that federation. I believe all hon. members and the Canadian public would be prepared to go along with him, but the question of free trade, as I have indicated, is entirely something that is so far away as to be completely impracticable. As the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Morris) pointed out a few minutes ago, the small proportion of the population of the federation compared to the whole Caribbean area would, I suggest, create very grave problems in our trade relations with other areas such as the countries of South America which border on the Caribbean, and the Central America states to whom we sell and from whom we buy a lot.


Some hon. Members:: Ten o'clock.


Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert: Therefore, I think that at the present time this whole question is entirely premature.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. McGee):: I am
sorry to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired and I see it is ten o'clock.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Chevrier:: May I ask the acting house leader what the business will be for tomorrow?


Mr. Churchill:: Yes. Following the outline given by the house leader last Thursday, we will start with the adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No. C-31, to amend the Prairie Grain Advance Payments Act, which is No. 57 on today's order paper; followed by the resolution to amend the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, in the name of the Minister of Agriculture, and being No. 64 on today's order paper; and then take up the budget resolutions. If we complete that business we shall proceed with the resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Agriculture dealing with the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, which is No. 63 on today's order paper, and then we shall resume the debate on the resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Transport amending the Department of Transport Act, which is No. 60 on today's order paper.


Lionel Chevrier: May I inform the minister that I understand from the Minister of Transport it is his intention to abandon this resolution.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Oh, I see. If there is any change in this order, it will be announced at the opening of the house tomorrow.


Lionel Chevrier: Will the house proceed on Wednesday with the unfinished business?


Gordon Minto Churchill: That will be announced tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Dominion-Provincial Relations

[Stage Direction]
FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL TAX-SHARING ARRANGEMENTS ACT Scale of Annual Payments
(including Atlantic Provinces Adjustment Grant for 1958-59)
(in $000)
1	2	3Province	1957-58 Final Estimate	1958t59 First Preliminary Estimated)	1958-59 Revised Estimate July(°)Newfoundland	
16,028	24,328	24,645Prince Edward Island	
4,136	6,652	6,652Nova Scotia	
26,407	35,231	35,291New Brunswick	
21,254	29,816	30,084Quebec (a)	
43,060	49,224	59,389Ontario (b)	
74,379	91,858	95,722Manitoba	
32,350	33,967	34,054Saskatchewan	
33,071	34,724	34,757Alberta	
43,636	45,819	47,010British Columbia	
58,983	63,198	63,198Total	
353,304	414,817	430,802
Note:-1. The 1957-58 final estimates were based on the latest information available prior to the close of that year. They are subject to final revision when returns are complete, on or before December 31, 1958.
2. The 1958-59 first preliminary estimate was based on 95 per cent of the payments for the previous year except for British Columbia and Prince Edward Island where stabilization payments were included.
_	3. The 1958-59 revised estimate made in July is based on budget estimates of revenue returns for the year from
individual income tax and corporation income tax and preliminary estimates of assessments for succession duties. Stabilization payments are included for British Columbia and Prince Edward Island.
(a)	Equalization only.
(b)	Rental of individual income tax only.
(°) In accordance with 1958 amendments.
[Stage Direction]
Visit of Dr. Nkrumah


[Stage Direction]
of
DR. KWAME NKRUMAH Prime Minister of Ghana to

[Stage Direction]
Dr. Nkrumah was welcomed by the Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker, Prime Minister of Canada, and thanked by the Hon. Mark Robert Drouin, Speaker of the Senate, and the Hon. Roland Michener, Speaker of the House of Commons.
John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker of the Senate, Mr. Speaker of the House of Commons, and members of the parliament of Canada: Dr. Nkrumah, on behalf of the parliament and people of Canada I extend a warm welcome to you and your ministers who are associated with you on this occasion, Hon. Mr. Botsio and Hon. Mr. Baako. I welcome you as the prime minister of the first truly African state to attain dominion status within the commonwealth.
I first met Dr. Nkrumah at the prime ministers' conference in London last June, a few short months after his country had become an independent nation within the commonwealth. I think the emergence of Ghana to equal status within the commonwealth is symbolic of the commonwealth concept as it develops to meet change and changing conditions. Canadians have pride in the role that Canada has played in the evolution of this commonwealth. In this commonwealth, nations, equal and independent, join together in their dedication to freedom through the practice of parliamentary democracy in the tradition of the mother of parliaments at Westminster, thereby bringing peace, progress and prosperity to peoples everywhere in the world.
It was Sir Robert Borden who in 1919, following the sacrifices of the first world war, secured for Canada recognition of her sovereign status as a signatory of the peace treaty and as a member of the league of nations; further steps along that pathway have been taken by succeeding prime ministers of Canada. The commonwealth to me represents an institution which, in its inherent greatness, gives hope to mankind. A world organization of many races, beliefs and religions, we have no political uniformity without law or by law; its unity is in the dedication of its peoples to freedom; its glory
is that all share in a common heritage; its purpose, peace for all mankind; the bonds of its unity maintained by the good sense, good will and good faith of its diverse peoples.
Because of this principle it does not stagnate in formalism. It is ever growing; it is living. From time to time in the years ahead other nations will join its ranks and two confederations, that of Nigeria and that of the West Indies, have not long to wait for membership.
If I might I should like to say a word as to the constitution of Ghana, for it illustrates what I have placed before you, namely that there is no uniformity in the political systems of the various portions of this commonwealth. Ghana has a unicameral legislature. Five regions comprise the state which came about through the uniting of the Gold Coast with Togoland. Each region has an assembly with powers which are not unlike those of our provinces. Each region has a House of Chiefs with power to consider any matter referred to it by a minister or the national assembly.
Mr. Prime Minister, the achievement of full self-governing membership in the commonwealth to which you led your people was a swift, orderly and constitutional march, a tribute to your devotion and a credit to the United Kingdom, which in its finest and best traditions paved the way for the emergence of your nation as a new nation within this commonwealth. Indeed, in little over half a century the commonwealth concept, adapted to the needs of your country, has brought about the transition of a land of diverse peoples with traditional African culture into a modern state with a new and energetic economic life, whose purpose it is to raise the standards of its people and to develop its resources and the talents of its people.
I betray no state secret, Mr. Prime Minister, when I say that last June and July I was deeply impressed by your ability and by your

personal character, and we became friends. I say that as a foundation necessary to the relationships which prevail as between those of us who have responsibilities in all parts of the commonwealth. We have something in common. We were both born on September 18, though you were born a little bit later than I was.
Your life, sir, is an Alger story. Born in a humble home, educated in your own country, you went abroad in order to widen that education in the United States of America, were graduated from Lincoln University and the University of Pennsylvania, and later attended the London School of Economics. I know your philosophy of life from personal conversation with you. However, I prefer to quote your own words on one occasion when you said this: In truth the burden of my life can be summarized in "The Memoriam" quoted by Cecil Rhodes-"So much to do, so little done".
You have done much. You have much still to do in order to bring about that unity among peoples, without regard to colour or race, which has been your life work. It is thus my pleasure to welcome you to Canada, and as a representative of an older partner of the commonwealth to welcome your country as one of the latest in the family of nations within the commonwealth.
I introduce to you the Prime Minister of Ghana, Dr. Kwame Nkrumah.
Dr. Kwame Nkrumah (Prime Minister of Ghana): Mr. Speaker of the Senate, Mr. Speaker of the House of Commons, Mr. Prime Minister, and hon. members of the parliament of Canada: It is a great pleasure for me to address this august assembly today. I wish to express the gratitude of the people of Ghana and my own appreciation for the honour your Prime Minister and his government have done our country by inviting me to pay this visit to Canada. I wish to thank you very sincerely, Mr. Prime Minister, for the kind words with which you have just welcomed me.
We in Ghana have a strong feeling of pride in our commonwealth membership. I had the privilege of attending the commonwealth prime ministers' conference in London last year, when for the first time in history the first African state entered that great and free association of states stretching across the world. The meeting provided an invaluable opportunity for establishing personal relationships with other prime ministers and political leaders, and I am particularly happy that I have been able to renew my friendship with your distinguished Prime Minister, Mr. Diefenbaker, for whom I have had great admiration since my first meeting with him.
Address by Dr. Nkrumah
On attaining our independence we in Ghana chose to become a member of the commonwealth of our own free will. We enjoy the same institutions of parliamentary democracy and the same climate of politics and public morality as the other members. We have the same respect for tradition and the same regard for ceremonial. We place the same value on the human individual and appreciate the dignity of restraint. We accept the sovereignty of law and the sanctity of the pledged word.
The family relationship between members of the commonwealth which we have already experienced and which brings together countries widely differing in race, religion and social background, is an example of international association which we shall always support so long as it continues to be based on sound democratic principles and respect for the sovereignty of the member nations.
Canada is in a sense the founder of the commonwealth, for it was in the conception of a free association between Canada and the mother country that the foundations of the commonwealth were laid. Canada has made a great contribution to the world by the successful working of her institutions, her government, the spectacular development of her national resources, and the constructive initiative taken in international affairs. The spirit of tolerance and mutual confidence among peoples of different racial groups that has evolved in this community is an achievement which is a shining example to all of us. Canada also serves as an invaluable link between the great North American continent and its people and the rest of the world.
We believe that Ghana, as the first truly African state to join the commonwealth, also has a contribution to make to the enrichment of the life of the world community. Just as you in Canada have given the world the benefit of your experience and views arising out of your position on this great continent, so we in Africa hope that we will also be able to contribute our views for the common benefit of the community of nations. We feel that through us and through other African nations a general understanding between the African continent and the various members of the commonwealth will be developed. We realize the great responsibilities that this position imposes on us, but we are ready and prepared to take up the challenge.
Recently we took the initiative in convening a conference of independent African states, a conference which proved to be most successful. I myself have recently returned from a tour of the capitals of the other states which participated in the conference. We are endeavouring to establish among ourselves in Africa a fundamental unity on

Address by Dr. Nkrumah domestic and foreign policy which is, I think, of special significance to the role of the African nations in world affairs. We are determined to work together in the economic and cultural fields, with the object of raising the standard of life of our peoples and making a distinctive African contribution to international discussions and the achievement of world peace. We are determined that through mutual co-operation and collective leadership we free and independent African states shall not only safeguard our hard-won independence but also use all the means available to us to emancipate those of our brethren who are still under colonial rule.
I find nothing incompatible with our effectiveness as a member of the United Nations and the commonwealth in pursuing an African objective and projecting an African personality. On the contrary, I see in it great possibilities for good, because we should be able to bring to our deliberations in the United Nations and the commonwealth a better understanding of the African point of view, and make a distinctive contribution toward reaching acceptable solutions to our many problems.
I should like to take this opportunity to comment on certain aspects of our foreign policy. Basically the policy of our government is one of non-alignment and positive neutrality. I have emphasized on several occasions, however, that this should not be interpreted as a purely negative neutralism. On the contrary, we will always adopt whatever positive policy will do most to safeguard our independence. We have a vested interest in peace, and we will do everything in our power to support the United Nations.
Like many other small countries we have appealed to the great powers to suspend nuclear bomb tests. We pray that progress can be made in achieving some degree of disarmament, thus permitting part of the vast resources now applied to the barren task of producing still more terrible weapons of destruction to be transferred to the constructive and hopeful task of assisting the peoples in the less developed countries to eliminate disease and poverty from their lives.
I have come to Canada at a time when great international tension has been generated by recent developments in the Middle East. The attitude of my government to this situation was made clear in the statement issued on July 16, just before I left. We believe that any attempt to pass judgment on what has happened would at this stage simply heighten tension, and the task now is to secure a workable solution for the future. This, we suggest, could be based on three principles: the substitution of a United Nations force for the American troops now in
Lebanon; the holding of free elections in that country under United Nations supervision, and the subsequent establishment of Lebanon as a free and independent state with a status of neutrality, internationally guaranteed on the analogy of Austria. As to the immediate situation, I am confident that I express the views of the leaders of the other independent African states when I say that all of us pray that the leaders of the great powers will come to an understanding which will spare us, who are not parties to their disputes, and the rest of mankind from the unbelievable horrors of modern war. Today, so it seems to me, the fate of mankind rests in the hands of a few men. I pray that they are fully aware of their vast responsibilities.
May I say how greatly we in Ghana have been impressed and inspired by Canada's record in the field of international affairs in recent years. We feel that common sense, decency and reasonableness have invariably reinforced the admirable attitudes you have taken in the United Nations and the wise counsel which you have contributed to the commonwealth.
One other aspect of our international relations on which I wish to touch is that of economic development. Like any other less developed country, we wish to banish disease, ignorance and poverty from our land. We realize that we can only do this in co-operation with other countries and governments. We are the world's greatest producer of cocoa, but like other one-crop countries we are at the mercy of world prices. As you know, the recession of the last year has already had disastrous political consequences quite apart from its economic effects for several of the governments of those less developed areas.
In our own case I attach the highest importance to increasing the productivity of our agriculture, and to starting the industrialization of our country. The cornerstone of our future development is the successful implementation of our great Volta river project for the production of aluminum. Here again the recession has affected our basic plans most profoundly for aluminum producers are now naturally reluctant to increase capacity. Like everyone else, I trust that this recession ends very quickly and that the expansion of the North American economy, which can so decisively affect our own hopes for the future and the hopes of all less developed countries, will soon be resumed.
It is this situation which to me most vividly illustrates the community of interest and common purpose which should exist between the dollar and sterling areas on the one hand and the less developed countries

on the other. The sustained development of the resources of the less developed countries would not only reduce their economic vulnerability and thus consolidate their vitally important political independence, but at the same time raw materials would continue to be produced for the more advanced industrial nations, thus ensuring the maintenance of high levels of employment and the expansion of world trade, a process which of itself is essential for the survival of the western economies.
In recent years I believe that the common interest and identity of purpose between the wealthier nations and the less developed areas has not been adequately recognized. I hope the forthcoming commonwealth economic conference will give adequate consideration to this basic truth, and in particular pay far greater attention than in the past to the political implications of economic development.
All of us in our separate ways, both as individuals and as nations, desperately seek for a world of peace where men and women may bring up their children in security and with confidence in the future. I believe that apart from general disarmament and the abolition of nuclear tests nothing could do more to achieve this hope than that all like-minded countries should gather together and co-operate in achieving sustained and balanced economic development among themselves, thus expanding world trade and improving the common welfare of all people.
Before I conclude I should like to express the appreciation of my government and the people of Ghana to this great country of Canada for the many manifestations of interest which you have already demonstrated in our affairs since independence, and for the very welcome assistance in a number of fields, economic, social and cultural, which we have received from you. We can best show our appreciation of this assistance by ensuring that it is used for the maximum benefit of all people.
May I thank you once again for the honour and privilege of addressing this great assembly. I pray that this occasion will always be remembered as the beginning of an enduring friendship between Canada and Ghana, a friendship based on a common belief in the dignity of all mankind and in the right of all peoples to control their own affairs, dedicated to the pursuit of peace. Thank you.
(Translation):


Hon. Mark Robert Drouin (Speaker of the Senate):: It is on behalf of the Canadian Senate, Mr. Prime Minister, that I have the great honour of welcoming you to this house which, in your country as in ours, symbolizes the respect of our two peoples, Ghana and Canada,
Visit of Dr. Nkrumah
for parliamentary democratic institutions, those pillars upon which, notwithstanding differences in culture and tradition, rests the close unity of commonwealth nations.
This union of different peoples under the banner of parliamentary democracy is no mere gesture. The Canadian people which, as you have seen, are made up of various racial communities, have managed, through democratic institutions in their federal form, to fashion and pursue a common ideal and to respect each other's essential characteristics. It is with an equal respect for their diversity and an unshakable faith in their common ideal that Canada looks upon the nations of the commonwealth, whether they be African, like yours, Mr. Prime Minister, Asiatic or Anglo-Saxon.
You are the head of a new African nation, independent within the commonwealth and called to a high destiny, not only on your own continent, but in the whole democratic world as well. Heir to the traditions of ancient Africa's civilization and to British parliamentary institutions and conscious of the responsibility implied by that privilege, your country has already undertaken to give them dynamic and positive expression. Since your recent accession to independence, your government, with astonishing courage, has already started to develop the natural resources of your beautiful country.
Apart from your great love for Africa and your deep understanding of that country, you yourself, Mr. Prime Minister, have brought to your role of nation builder, an extensive knowledge of the North American continent gained during your studies in the United States. It is therefore with very special interest and understanding that Canadians look upon the unfolding of Ghana's destiny. Just as each of the two racial groups who inhabit both our countries are equal partners, enjoying the same rights and privileges, so each and every one of the nations of the commonwealth aTe equal partners jointly and severally pursuing objectives of peace and happiness.
Straight away and by right your country has become a full member of this great and noble commonwealth family. You are welcome into it and, beyond the Atlantic and the African continent, we extend a friendly hand to all the citizens of Ghana whose beloved Sovereign, it seems only fitting to point out, is also ours.
The people of Canada appreciate your having made us this visit in spite of your pressing responsibilities. On my own behalf and on behalf of the Senate of Canada, I ask you to accept our thanks for your kind words and to convey to your compatriots the expression of our sincere admiration and faithful friendship.

Visit of Dr. Nkrumah
(Text):


Hon. Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons):: Prime Minister Nkrumah, in bringing this memorable session to a conclusion may I add a word of thanks on behalf of the House of Commons. I assure you, sir, that our meeting today has been all too short, having regard to the significance of your visit and the interest you have inspired in us, and in all Canadians, in our brother country of Ghana. We should gladly have given you the unlimited time which is accorded in this chamber to a prime minister or a leader of the opposition, as against the few minutes which you have taken. It would have been a pleasure, too, to hear from the distinguished members of your government who accompany you, and whom we are so happy to welcome. May I express a personal regret that we are not able to meet that remarkable man, Sir Emmanuel Quist, the former Speaker of your legislative assembly, whose contribution to the establishment of parliamentary methods in your new legislature must have been indispensable.
Your visit, in your capacity as representative of the youngest member of the great and growing family of nations which make up the commonwealth, is not only appropriate but it is a touching recognition and furtherance of our fraternal relations. It gives to your older Canadian brother another opportunity to inspect and dote upon the new baby. I hope the metaphor will not be offensive. As Sir Winston Churchill might have said, "Some baby". In fact your phenomenal growth in political stature from the cradle to majority and independence in the last ten years is in contrast to our own unhurried but steady evolution over a century from colony to independence.
From 1791 to 1867 we had three constitutional advances to self-government, and took another 50 years to exercise independence in external affairs. In your case, if we leave out of account the Burns constitution of 1946, which within 18 months was described as outmoded at birth, you rapidly outgrew two new constitutions, those of 1951 and 1954, and reached full stature on March 6, 1957. Then you donned the constitutional garment which you now wear with so much apparent comfort and sophistication.
Apart from this contrast in the rate of our political growth there are many similarities in our history in the commonwealth family. As has been said, we gave the lead to the original four British dominions which, with the United Kingdom, made up the British commonwealth. You have given the lead to the African states. Your democracy, like ours, is modelled on that remarkable British invention of responsible parliamentary government. As I have said on other occasions, this common use of parliamentary institutions which runs throughout the nations of the commonwealth today gives us all an understanding and a confidence in each other's policies and politics which is a solid basis for future friendship and co-operation.
From what I read, you in Ghana have already mastered the parliamentary art. Your great speech in the independence debate, with its understanding of British policy and African needs, its eloquence and its sincerity, its apt quotations from Burke, Aristotle and Tennyson, was in the highest tradition. I am told, too, that if you had any notes on that occasion they were not the copious notes the Speaker hears about in some other houses.
Some other of your new parliamentary practices will endear you to our members. For example, you are reported once to have advised an exasperating member to go have a drink of orange juice. Your ministers, too, seem to follow familiar patterns in dealing with questions before the orders of the day. This example comes from John Gunther:
Mr. Kusi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Natural Resources-
(a)	What is the estimated population of the tsetse fly?
(b)	Is there any evidence that the number is increasing?


Mr.   Casely-Hayford@: (a) There is no available record of tsetse fly population.
(b) In view of the answer to part (a) of the question, the answer is no.
We thank you, sir, for your visit and your message. It has been said that the darkest thing about Africa has been our ignorance of it. You are doing much to dispel this ignorance. We honour you for the outstanding leadership which you are giving in Ghana. We honour your country for its assumption of the responsibilities of self-government. So much depends in West Africa on its success and its example. Please bear with you when you return to Ghana the heartfelt good wishes of the Canadian parliament and people for all your high endeavours.

Tuesday, July 22, 1958