1957-11-21

PRIVILEGE


Hon. Jean Lesage (Monlmagny-L'Islel):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. Yesterday afternoon the Minister of Labour said, in answer to a starred question of mine, that the latest date for which data have been published regarding unemployment in Canada was September 19, 1957. On that very same day, yesterday, at ten o'clock in the morning, the press of the country already had in their hands for release at that time a press communique from the Department of Labour giving the figures of unemployment for October 17, 1957. It is clear, sir, that yesterday afternoon the Minister of Labour refused to give to this house information which he had already given to the press of the country.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Fleming:: Shame.


Jean Lesage: This, sir, is certainly additional evidence of the contempt which this government holds for parliament.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure that I understand the question of privilege which the hon. member is making.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There is no question of privilege.


Jean Lesage: Mr. Speaker, it is a very clear one, I believe. Yesterday afternoon I was refused information which had already been given to the press of the country in the morning.


Mr. Speaker:: I understand what the hon. member has said, but in what way does he allege that the privileges of the house are infringed?


Jean Lesage: With all due respect, sir, in answer to the question I asked the Minister of Labour said yesterday afternoon that the information as for September 19 was the latest information available, when he had already given information to the press in the morning as for October 17.
96698-87i


Hon. Michael Starr (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon member for Montmagny-L'Islet may I say-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am not sure that this is a matter to be debated in the house. It seems to me that if there is a question of privilege it is in the hands of the house to refer the matter to the appropriate committee to deal with it. I do not want to have a debate on the rights or wrongs of what a member has done. It seems to me that if there is a charge made against a member of the house it would have to be supported by a motion and referred to the appropriate committee.


Mr. Coldwell:: Might the minister not have a reply to make immediately which perhaps, with due respect, he might be permitted to make?


Mr. Speaker:: If it is the pleasure of the house to proceed to hear the minister, very well.


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet asked in a starred question yesterday for the number of unemployed registered at national employment offices in Quebec, Canada and Montmagny. The figures released yesterday are released by the Department of Labour and the dominion bureau of statistics.
Yesterday the hon. member rose on a question of privilege to protest against certain figures which I supplied in answer to starred question No. 29. The hon. member's objection was that more recent figures were available than those provided, which were for September 21. I now wish to give the figures for registrations at the national employment service on November 7, which was not the date specified by the hon. member, it being November 1.
At the same time I should point out that these figures include a number of categories which extend beyond the definition of persons without jobs and seeking work, which is the basis of the dominion bureau of statistics figure. Registrations at national employment offices are derived from a count of applications on hand in every office at the close of business on a specified day. The count excludes registrations from persons known to have jobs and applying for other ones. Measures are taken to exclude persons who have secured work on their own since registration.

Privilege-Mr. Lesage
Nevertheless, I am informed that the figures inevitably include a number of persons who had found employment or who had left the labour force when the count was made. Although not all persons looking for work register at national employment service offices, all those who are seeking unemployment benefits, regardless of the length of time for which they may be out of work, must register for work.
Thus, Mr. Speaker, taken as a measure of unemployment, which was what the hon. member requested, these figures do not have the authority of the official dominion bureau of statistics figures of persons out of work and seeking jobs. For that reason they are not published as official unemployment figures.
In this connection I might add that it was the previous policy, as I imagine the hon. member is well aware, to release figures of national employment service registrations only for the dates specified in the official dominion bureau of statistics release. I have decided to change this policy, on the principle that hon. members of this house are entitled to any information which it is within the power of my department to provide. Therefore I will give the figures the hon. member requested, and better; I shall give them for November 7, 1957, as compared with November 8, 1956: for Canada, in 1957, 327,388; for November 8, 1956, 188,362; for the Quebec region, 1957, on the same date, 90,853; for November 8, 1956, 52,258; for Montmagny, November 7, 1957, 948; for November 8, 1956, 356. In the event the hon. member is interested, the figure for June of this year was 1,112.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Sinclair:: Are you applauding 300,000 unemployed?


Mr. Speaker:: Since this matter was raised on a question of privilege may I ask whether, in view of the statement which has been made by the minister, the hon. member feels that the question of privilege has been satisfied?


Jean Lesage: I am satisfied that the figures given indicate that we have been right in claiming there is a great increase in unemployment.


Michael Starr: Unemployment in your town was worse in June.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does the hon. member not wish to apologize now for what he said earlier?


James Sinclair: You should apologize for 320,000 unemployed.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. May I say to the house that there is some confusion between what is a question of privilege and what is a point of order. In my opinion, when a member raises a question of the infringement of the privileges of the house it is a matter that is then placed before the house for action. The explanation should be satisfactory and the matter dropped, or it should be taken up by the house and referred to the appropriate committee. For future guidance of members I would ask them to bear in mind that the use of the privilege of the house is, to my mind, a serious matter.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, November 21, 1957
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today, the 21st November, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
X have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
J. F. Delaute,
Secretary to the Governor General (Administrative)



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the house leader a question. Has the government reached any decision as to whether or not it will recommend to parliament the setting up of an estimates committee to which the estimates of certain of the departments might be referred?


Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention of the government to recommend the setting up of such a committee at this session.


Mr. Pickersgill:: Why not?


Howard Charles Green: For the reasons I explained the other day.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary question but may I direct it to the senior minister without portfolio, the hon. member for Greenwood. In view of the minister's contention, in an article he wrote a while ago and which appeared in the Queen's Quarterly, that the estimates committee should be strengthened and should be

given the power to make its own decision as to what departments should be considered by that committee, may I ask whether he has been pressing these points on his colleagues in the cabinet?


Hon. J. M. Macdonnell (Minister without Portfolio):: Mr. Speaker, as I understood the oath I took when I became a junior privy councillor, that is a secret.



REQUEST FOR ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON ORDER PAPER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
['In reply I think I can assure the minister that the members of the C.C.F. group would be prepared to discuss this resolution next week.']
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Hamilton) or the acting leader of the house whether the government is in a position today to answer starred question No. 37, which the Prime Minister assured me yesterday would be answered before the federal-provincial conference.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is in Montreal this afternoon-


An hon. Member:: What is he doing?


Howard Charles Green: Wishing godspeed to the Canadian trade mission to the United Kingdom.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


An hon. Member:: Could he not do that here?


Howard Charles Green: For that reason he is unable to be in the house until later in the day. When he returns I shall draw to his attention the hon. member's question.
[Later:!


Mr. E. G. Hansell (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works, who I believe looks after the house order paper. I placed a question on the order paper on October 22, nearly a month ago, and another one on October 24. Would the minister try to facilitate the answers to those questions? I might help him with respect to the question asked on October 24. It was:
Has the government considered the recommendations of the joint parliamentary committee of 1946 on a design for a distinctive Canadian flag?
Perhaps the minister would consider that question has already been answered. If so, I wonder whether the answer might be printed in Hansard. Would he facilitate the answering of these questions?


Howard Charles Green: I will be very glad to look
Inquiries of the Ministry into these questions and get the answers as quickly as possible.



[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Public Works. My question arises out of the serious and continuing drop in the prices of agricultural products. Can either minister assure the house that the resolution on the order paper which foreshadows a bill to support agricultural prices will be brought forward at the earliest possible date?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, it is the intention to proceed with that as soon as possible.


Hazen Robert Argue: Next week, perhaps?


Howard Charles Green: Well, now, Mr. Speaker, if I could be sure of just what the hon. member's party intends to do with regard to the remaining work of the session I might be able to give the hon. member a more definite answer.


Hazen Robert Argue: In reply I think I can assure the minister that the members of the C.C.F. group would be prepared to discuss this resolution next week.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. J. Broome (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Has the minister any further information to give to the house with regard to developments at the Britannia mine?


Hon. E. D. Fulton (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to be able to report to the hon. member in reply to his question and to the house on the course of discussions which I have held in this connection.
I should like, first of all, to express appreciation of the fact that when they learned of the desire of the government to explore the possibility of keeping the Britannia mine in operation, the management decided to defer their decision on closure of the mine which otherwise would have taken place on November 19. As a result it became possible to explore the situation with some hope of success, and I know that this is appreciated by all parties concerned as well as by the government.

Inquiries of the Ministry
In Vancouver recently I had discussions with the mine management, at which time the implications of various alternative proposals were studied. I also had discussions with the union leaders. I proceeded to Victoria on Wednesday, where I had discussions with the provincial ministers chiefly concerned in the matter. At these last discussions the possibility of joint action on one or more of the various potential alternatives was explored. These discussions were most helpful.
I returned to Ottawa this morning and have made a preliminary report to my colleagues. The situation now is that this report is to be considered further, and further discussions are to be held here with company officials by whom the eventual decision, so far as the company is concerned, will have to be made. During these discussions the proposals which seem to have emerged from the earlier talks as having the greatest appeal and practicability will be further explored, together of course with any proposals or alternatives which may be advanced by the company.
It will be appreciated that in discussions of this kind, in which the dominion and provincial governments take part and in which a company and its men are directly involved, it is necessary to proceed by stages, with the result that it is not always possible to reach agreement or decision quickly. However, I wish to assure the house that this government is pursuing the matter just as vigorously as possible and is prepared to consider all practicable alternatives which may have a chance of forestalling the closure of the mine at this time.


Mr. W. H. McMillan (Welland):: I should like to ask a supplementary question of the Minister of Justice in view of his statement. Does any action taken by this government in connection with the Britannia mine apply equally to any other copper or base metal mines closing down or about to close down because of the low price of base metals?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am not in a position to answer that question because no decision has yet been taken as to what, if any, action lies open to us in the case of the Britannia mine.


Mr. Martin (Essex East):: No decision will be taken.



LAUNCHING OF SPECIAL PUBLIC WORKS PROGRAM TO ALLEVIATE UNEMPLOYMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Bourget (Levis):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works of which I thought notice was not necessary. Can he tell the house whether

it is the intention of the government to launch now a special program of public works across Canada to alleviate the very serious unemployment situation?


Howard Charles Green: Well, I have no intention of launching an over-all program of public works across Canada because, as the hon. member well knows in view of his experience as a parliamentary assistant to the former minister of public works, that is quite impossible. If his government had left us a nice big program of public works on the shelf which could have been built up that might have been possible.


James Sinclair: We had it right in the estimates.


Howard Charles Green: But such is not the case. We are taking every possible step to further development works across the country.


Maurice Bourget: On a question of privilege, the answer given by the minister was lengthy and I am entitled to tell him that if he will look-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is in order in raising a point of order but if he goes on, as he appears to wish to do, to tell the minister something I am afraid that goes beyond a point of order.


Maurice Bourget: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to point out that every time-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It is not in order for the hon. member to do that. If he wishes to raise a point of order on what the minister just said I will hear him; otherwise I think he should not pursue the matter.


Maurice Bourget: May I suggest-


Some hon. Members:: No.


Maurice Bourget: May I ask the Minister of
Public Works to look on the other shelf and he will probably find some projects which had been prepared by the previous government.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, in reply may I say I have looked on all the shelves and under all the beds. We are going to do everything that can possibly be done in view of what had previously been done.


Mr. Mcllraith:: I can give you the names of buildings in the Ottawa area.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: If it is a supplementary question I will hear it now. 1 tried to recognize the hon. member for Essex East. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I have a supplementary
question for the minister. In that case, can he get on with the post office at Wesleyville, which was in this year's program and which has not yet been started?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I will be very glad to make inquiries about this post office.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I would like you to get on with it.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE INQUIRY AS TO LETTER FROM PREMIER OF MANITOBA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the house leader, in his capacity as Acting Prime Minister, if he is in a position today to table the letter from the premier of Manitoba which the Prime Minister two days ago undertook to table?


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to do that, but I am sure the Prime Minister will also take care of that request at the earliest possible moment.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I may ask the house leader a question. Since I asked my question my attention has been drawn to the fact that the letter in question and one from the Prime Minister were tabled in the house yesterday, according to Votes and Proceedings. I wonder whether the usual custom of having them printed as an appendix to today's Hansard could be followed, as was done with all the other correspondence from the provincial premiers?


Howard Charles Green: I have no objection to that course being followed.


Mr. Speaker:: Does the house give its consent to the printing of those letters as an appendix to today's Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
[For text of letters referred to above, see appendix, pages 1403-04.1



PUBLIC BUILDINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. O. Gour (Russell):: I would like to direct a few questions to the Minister of Labour.
As the minister is aware, and as we are all aware, unemployment is increasing every day; and in view of the fact that he indicated yesterday that he would be pleased to do
Inquiries of the Ministry everything possible to provide more work, would he be in favour of using his influence to wake up the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Green) so that he may begin to build at once the post office and public works headquarters, in addition to the three or four government buildings which are being considered as projects on Riverside drive and around Hogs Back.
Second, as the defence of the country is of the greatest importance at the present time, partly in view of the development of the Russian satellites-


Some hon. Members:: Question.


An hon. Member:: Order paper.


Joseph-Omer Gour: Could the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Pearkes)-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


An hon. Member:: Be a little more patient.


An hon. Member:: We have had plenty of opportunity for exercising patience.


Joseph-Omer Gour: -be persuaded by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) to begin early next spring the construction of the pentagon project on the government owned land divided by Donald street and lying partly in Eastview and partly in the city of Ottawa?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think perhaps I have allowed the hon. member to go beyond his proper scope in asking more than one question. He has already asked two questions, and I would ask him to leave it at that until we see whether answers are forthcoming to those questions.


Joseph-Omer Gour: I did say I had a few questions, not only one.


Mr. Speaker:: I have asked the hon. member to leave it at that, and that is my ruling.


Michael Starr: In reply to the questions already asked and to the others that have not been asked I want to say that the ministers mentioned in these questions to my knowledge are wide awake and fully aware of the circumstances. They are doing their very utmost, again to my knowledge, to bring about these things which the hon. member sets out, and are giving them very serious consideration in order to alleviate the problem mentioned by the hon. member.


Joseph-Omer Gour: Thank you. I hope the minister will follow the two other suggestions.


Mr. Speaker:: Perhaps the hon. member would be content to put them on the order paper.


Joseph-Omer Gour: I would.

Inquiries of the Ministry FISHERIES



FRASER RIVER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. G. J. Hahn (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries. Would the minister indicate what progress, if any, has been achieved toward deciding whether the area between Pattullo bridge and Mission bridge on the Fraser river will be reopened to fishing, as requested by fishermen in the area?


Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question. The salmon fishing season has just closed on the Pacific coast, as the hon. member is no doubt aware. A review of the situation above Pattullo bridge on the Fraser river is now under way. Final decision must await thorough study of all information. I may say further that a review of the whole situation will have been completed well in advance of the next fishing season.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. In view of a report in the Montreal Gazette this morning headed "Defence Cut-back Unlikely", could the minister confirm to this house that this report is true?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: I have not seen the report referred to; therefore I cannot confirm or deny it.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: A supplementary question. It is mentioned in this report that if the estimates are lower than those presented by the Liberals earlier this year the reduction will be very slight. Is this true?


George Randolph Pearkes: That information will be
given when my estimates are brought before the house.



U.S.-CANADA-INQUIRY AS TO POWER TO COMMIT CANADIAN PILOTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. J. Henderson (Kingston):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. This is further to a question I asked and an answer I received on November 6 with respect to the United States-Canada joint air defence command.


My question is this. If there were an immediate attack by air over the Arctic by an aggressor, can the Canadian government commit Canadian fighters being put into the air without consultation with, or direction from, General Partridge?


George Randolph Pearkes: I think, Mr. Speaker, that is rather a hypothetical question; but at the same time plans have been discussed with General Partridge at integrated headquarters and are being evolved to meet a number of circumstances, and it would be a matter of only a very few minutes to obtain confirmation of the decisions that have already been made.


William James Henderson: A supplementary question; I am afraid the minister did not understand me. My question was, if there is an attack now over the Arctic by an aggressor, can the Canadian government commit Canadian fighters being put into the air without consultation with, or direction from, General Partridge?


George Randolph Pearkes: There certainly would be consultation with General Partridge and it would be a mutual effort between the two countries, because both countries would be involved if there were hostile bombers crossing the Canadian Arctic.


Major James William Coldwell: Has the minister seen the statement made by Mr. Dulles yesterday in Chicago, in which he said in the event of a planned attack the officers in the field would take immediate action without consultation with the governments?


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes; I believe that he was referring to operations in Europe.


Major James William Coldwell: Does that apply here?



USE OF CANADIAN BASES BY U.S. PLANES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Algoma East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence on the same subject. In view of the statement reported today by the United Kingdom minister of defence that United States planes cannot use bases in Britain for military operations without first obtaining the consent of the British government, will the minister state whether the same policy is in force with respect to possible United States action from bases on Canadian soil?


George Randolph Pearkes: I will take that question as notice.



FINANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Sinclair: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Yesterday, in his absence, I put a question to the Minister of Finance about a C.B.C. report of a speech made by the Minister of Justice at the University of British Columbia. The Minister of Finance pleaded ignorance of what was in the mind of the Minister of Justice-


Donald Methuen Fleming: No, he did not.


James Sinclair: Now I should like to ask the Minister of Justice what are these definite steps which have been taken by a Conservative government to relax monetary restrictions of the Bank of Canada.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the dispatch on which the C.B.C. news story is based, but I understand it was a report of a speech which I made at the University of British Columbia on Tuesday. In the course of that speech I said the government had been moving in the matter of monetary policy and credit restrictions ever since we took office. I outlined the various measures we have taken, including the provision of $150 million of new credit for housing loans. I also pointed out that there had been continuous review of monetary policies and discussions with the Bank of Canada with regard to credit restrictions and monetary policy generally.
I emphasized that the results of these discussions, and of the policies followed by this government since taking office, were now becoming evident in the reductions in interest rates which have been reported recently and which should do much to create an economic climate in which the restrictive trends initiated by the previous government would be reversed, and the Canadian economy could move forward again on that sound program of expansion which is the goal of this government.


James Sinclair: I can understand, now, the ignorance of the Minister of Finance yesterday.


Mr. Erharf Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: should like to direct a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice. I noted his reply that the government is taking measures to relax the tight money policy, and he cited as one of the methods the $150
Inquiries of the Ministry million made available for housing. However, I should like to ask him, in view of the fact that the only method other than the one he mentioned that the public of Canada have noticed has been the rise in the interest rates-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member is not asking a question. He is proceeding to make a statement about what the public of Canada understands. I would appreciate it if he would only state the facts necessary to the asking of his question.


Erhart Regier: Is the raising of interest rates on government bonds and on N.H.A. housing the government's method of making more investment money available?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I think in reply I must say that there are too many misstatements of fact as a preface to the question to allow me to reply to it.



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. In view of the serious unemployment situation as indicated by the release which was issued yesterday, can the minister say whether the government will give consideration to amending the Unemployment Insurance Act to extend the period during which seasonal or supplementary benefits are available?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, this matter is being given very serious consideration and I expect to have some indication of our decision in a matter of days.


Paul Joseph James Martin: A supplementary question. Is there not already before us the intention of the government to bring forward a measure dealing with some aspect of the question put by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre?


Michael Starr: I see nothing on the order paper, sir.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We
trust it will be soon.



INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. J. Irwin (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the

Inquiries of the Ministry Minister of Labour; I am sorry that I have not given him notice of this, but he may take this question as notice if he wishes. Whereas the British Columbia Electric Company Limited has placed a contract for transmission towers with an Italian firm; and whereas the construction of these towers would have given employment to many British Columbia workers for a protracted period-


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Thomas James Irwin: Keep your ears open and you will hear it. Will the Canadian government take steps to urge Canadian companies to place contracts such as the foregoing in Canada even at an advanced cost?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take this question as notice.



PARLIAMENT HILL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. It is not of earthshaking consequence but it is of interest to all members of the house. As an electrician by trade I have noticed the beautiful effect of outside lighting on the parliament buildings, and I have heard most commendable comments by Ottawa residents and tourists. Will the minister say how long the temporary lighting will be continued; and will he give favourable consideration to making the necessary installations of an architectural nature so as to place the illumination on a permanent basis?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the members of the government, like the hon. member for Vancouver East, have been very favourably impressed by the lighting arrangements outside the building, and it is for that reason that the lights have been kept on since the departure of Her Majesty. We are now investigating what the cost would be for lighting the building in a similar way on a permanent basis, or at least while the house is in session.



HARBOURS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Hector McMillan: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works, of which I have sent him notice. Are certain proposed improvements to the Port Colborne harbour and

installations, as provided in the estimates of 1957-58, being discontinued? If so, why is this being done?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his question. The fact is that these improvements have not been discontinued, because all the work which was proposed in the 1957-58 estimates has already been completed.



RONDEAU, ONT.    INQUIRY AS TO TENDERS FOR CONSTRUCTION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. B. Huffman (Kent, Onl.k Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works, of which I have sent notice. Were tenders called for the construction of a boat harbour at Rondeau, Ontario, and, if so, how many tenders were received?
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, may I suggest with great respect that these are questions which clearly should be put on the order paper. I have the answer here but I suggest this is not the time to give it.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question. Is this not the clearest indication of why we should have an estimates committee?


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it has anything whatever to do with an estimates committee.


Mr. Gauthier (Porlneuf):: Because you don't want to have one.



MISSION TO UNITED KINGDOM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether I could ask the Minister of Finance a question. In view of the absence from the house of the Prime Minister under the circumstances mentioned by the Minister of Public Works, and the departure today for the United Kingdom of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, can the Minister of Finance tell us now what is the answer to the questions put to the Minister of Trade and Commerce the other day with respect to whether or not the government has decided to instruct him to carry on conversations with members of the government of the United Kingdom with regard, first of all, to the Canadian Prime Minister's proposal for a 15 per cent shift in Canadian purchases from the United States

to the United Kingdom, and also the proposal made by Her Majesty's government for a free trade area between Canada and the United Kingdom?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to have a look at the questions to which the hon. member has referred.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Will my hon. friend be able to give us an answer before the Minister of Trade and Commerce returns from the United Kingdom?


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the questions admit of such answer.



MARMALADE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. W. McLeod (Okanagan-Revelsioke):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. I understand that marmalade made from citrus fruit is being sold in Canada under a label designating it "Product of Canada". Is this not a violation of regulations of the department governing the country of origin, and if such is the case will the department take action to curb this unfair practice?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. Marmalade made from citrus fruit and labelled "Product of Canada", when sold in Canada, would be in violation of the regulations with respect to processed fruits and vegetables as administered by the Department of Agriculture. Under such regulations labels must be submitted to the department for approval. If the hon. member will let me know the identity of the labels to which he refers my department will look into the matter immediately and take appropriate action.


George William McLeod: I shall be glad to do so.



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
PROPOSED NUNS* ISLAND

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. W. Marlin (Timmins):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Has the minister received representations from any group or groups opposed to the building of the causeway between Verdun and Nuns' island and, if so, from what group or groups?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: I wish to thank the hon. member for
Inquiries of the Ministry his courtesy in advising me of his intention to ask this question. I have received no such representations.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Secretary of State for External Affairs, notice of which was sent to his office, but in his absence I wonder whether I might direct it to the acting minister or perhaps to the Minister of Finance. My question arises out of the important and humanitarian proposal made by the United States that the United Nations technical assistance budget be increased from $30 million to $100 million. Is the minister in a position to assure the Canadian people that the government is supporting this worth-while proposal?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, this is only one of a number of suggestions dealing broadly with this whole field that are under consideration at the United Nations at the present time. I think the hon. member can be assured that the Canadian government is deeply interested in any enterprise of this kind and will certainly give to this and any other proposal serious consideration.


Hazen Robert Argue: And support?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It depends upon their details and on what may be the best way of handling these problems, because there are various suggestions being put forward broadly in regard to this subject at the present time.


Hazen Robert Argue: Do I take it from the minister's answer that Canada is supporting a general expansion in this field-in appropriate ways, of course?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not think I can go beyond the statement I have made today. This matter will continue, and I am sure there will be ample opportunity to discuss it as the situation develops at the United Nations.



FAO-REQUEST FOR TABLING OF SPEECH BY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. A. Tucker (Rosthern):: May I ask
the Minister of Agriculture if he has been able to find out yet what he said in his speech at the meeting of FAO in Rome? If he has been able to find out what he did say, will he now table that speech?

Inquiries of the Ministry


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, I was never in any doubt about what I said. The hon. member for Rosthern seems to be in considerable doubt. He asked me to table a copy of the speech. When he made the request a few days ago I told him that I did not have a copy of the speech available here, and that I would ask the delegation in Rome to send me a copy if they had one. That request has gone forward to the delegation at Rome, but we have not yet received the speech.


James Sinclair: They threw it away.


Douglas Scott Harkness: When it does arrive I will, as I said before, be delighted to table it for the edification of the hon. member.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What is wrong with the Minister of Public Works' push buttons?



NATURAL RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Maurice Breton (Jolielle-L'Assomption-Montcalm):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Naturally if we had a translation system I would be much more pleased to speak in French, but I will do my best in English. In view of the fact that the government is proposing to spend money in Saskatchewan, British Columbia and the maritimes on natural resources, does the minister contemplate also the spending of money in Quebec on natural resources?


Michael Starr: Mr. Speaker, I think I understood the hon. member to say "Minister of Labour"?


Maurice Breton: I meant the Minister of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: I think the hon. member said "Minister of Labour". However, the answer to his question was given quite fully by the Prime Minister the other day, when he was asked a similar question.



DISPOSITION OP DOWNSTREAM BENEFITS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERWAYS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George William McLeod: 1 have a question to direct to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Since he is not in the house, I believe the Prime Minister usually acts in these cases. Is the present Canadian ambassador to the United States continuing the efforts of his predecessor to have the question of downstream benefits on international rivers considered a top priority


problem for settlement with the United States? Could we have an up to date report on the progress, if any, that has been made?


Howard Charles Green: I believe this question was sent to the Prime Minister's office before the house opened this afternoon, and answers are being prepared. They will be given to the hon. member as soon as possible.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Laurier):: In the absence of the Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration on Tuesday I asked a question as to whether a deportation order served upon an individual in the city of Montreal would become effective before the case was tried in the courts of that city. The parliamentary assistant was good enough to give me an answer, which was good so far as it went, but I wonder if the minister would not now give assurance to the house that the order will not become effective until such time as the trial has taken place.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, my attention was directed, as I came into the house, to the question asked by the hon. member on Tuesday. I have not, therefore, been able to get the particulars as yet; but I think I can state with certainty that the policy in cases of this kind is not to take action to enforce a deportation order until the criminal trial has been disposed of. I shall look into the matter further and hope to be able to give the hon. gentleman a specific assurance tomorrow.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Courtemanche in the chair.



OFFICE OF THE CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER

[Stage Direction]
60. Salaries and expenses of office, $73,115.
Mrs. Fairclough:: Yesterday we had quite a discussion on this item, all of which was very interesting. The members of this house having so recently gone through an election campaign, their knowledge of procedure is fresh in their minds. I found, on reviewing the questions which had been asked and the suggestions which had been made, that they fell into two or three precise categories. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will answer a couple of these questions.
I should like to point out that most of the discussion which took place yesterday is the

type of discussion which normally takes place in the committee on privileges and elections. It is not usual for that committee to be set up in the first session after an election, but I expect that in the next session of this parliament that committee will probably come into being; then hon. members will have an excellent opportunity of discussing with the chief electoral officer any of the points which were raised. I might just say, though, with regard to the fee which is allowed for enumerators, that amount was changed last year in an effort to provide a more satisfactory method of enumeration. This matter is now being reviewed by the chief electoral officer, as is the matter of the rate to be paid for the printing of the voters' lists.
With regard to the latter, it was said yesterday by more than one hon. member in this house that the rate was so low it was practically impossible to have the work performed in union shops. I do not know what the union rates are in other parts of Canada, but in my own city the work is performed in union shops. I do not believe, therefore, that particular statement could be taken as a general indication of conditions across the country. Nevertheless, whether the rate is sufficient or not, it is being reviewed by the chief electoral officer, who has the matter under serious consideration.
Most of the other items mentioned were connected with advance polls, courts of revision and so on. There was one statement made which I think calls for an answer. It was a statement by the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond, I believe, who said it was possible for the armed forces to write on their ballots the name of the party they wished to support rather than the name of the candidate. If I understood the hon. member correctly and that was his statement, then he is misinformed; that is not correct.
Other than that, Mr. Chairman, I think there are no particular points which need to be answered at this time. I would suggest to hon. members that they might save their comments and their experiences and present them to the committee on privileges and elections when it meets next session.


Mr. Hardie:: I was speaking at the adjournment hour last night, and I thought I would continue today. In connection with handling elections in northern areas I should like to say, as I think the minister and the house know, that a large number of the people who vote are Indians and Eskimos. These people have their homes. Their homes are usually in the bush. What they call their permanent residence is in the bush, whether it be a log house or a tent, and they have no permanent residence in the villages or towns
Supply-Secretary of State scattered through the north. They travel around the country trapping, fishing and hunting or working at jobs where there is work available. We also have, of course, a large number of white people who make their living by fishing, trapping, prospecting, logging or who are employed by water transportation companies, air lines or trucking companies. It is natural that these people must be away from their normal place of residence very frequently in pursuing their means of livelihood.
On June 10 last, at one poll at Fort Rae in my riding 74 people voted out of a total number of 221 on the list. At Fort Good Hope 65 voted out of 146 on the list; at Coppermine 24 voted out of 118; at Arctic Red River, 15 out of 46. At Bathurst Inlet I think there were two or three people who voted out of a total number of 50 or 60 on the list. The reason for this, Mr. Chairman, is that, in particular at Fort Rae, Fort Good Hope and Arctic Red River, the people at that time were in the bush. They live in the bush and they were out trapping muskrat and beaver. At Coppermine and Bathurst Inlet, just a short while prior to the election the Eskimos there moved into the barren lands where the cariboo was available.
As I mentioned last night, the handling of the election in the Yukon on June 10 last shows clearly that there is a need for advance polls, and a need for more polling divisions in the northern areas. It seems to me a shame that an election can be thrown out because people are interested enough to take the trouble to exercise their right to vote. I hope that our gracious minister will study this problem and will recommend amendments to the elections act which will rectify this situation.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I shall be very glad to bring the matter to the attention of the chief electoral officer.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, the minister has answered in part one suggestion that I was going to make or one question that I was going to ask, but I suggest that it was a conditional answer. It has been the practice after every election to have the Canada Elections Act reviewed by a committee of the house in the light of the experiences obtained in that election. The hon. lady is perfectly correct, as far as my memory goes, in saying that does not always happen in the first session.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It very rarely does.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Sometimes it happens in the second session after an election. However, she must be

Supply-Secretary of State aware of rumours that are appearing in the press. She must be aware of things that are said by the Prime Minister from time to time and which suggest that another election could come at any time, indeed that it might come before another session of parliament is held. I can only assume that this is a decision to be made by the Prime Minister and that the hon. lady does not know what is in his mind. However, it seems to me that it is appropriate to make the suggestion that if there is to be a review of the Canada Elections Act between the election of June 10, 1957, and the date of the next one it might be safer to have that review take place at this session.
This is not an indirect way of asking the hon. lady whether she knows when the election is to be; it is quite direct, if she is prepared to answer. However, I suggest in all seriousness that consideration should be given to that review being undertaken soon so that if there are any changes on which there is general agreement, those changes might be put into effect at an early date. After all, it is common knowledge that the chief electoral officer, shortly after the election of June 10, sent messages that might be called "alerts" to the returning officers across the country. It is also known that in a number of instances returning officers have already asked candidates and runners-up in the last election to supply names of enumerators for urban areas. All of these things suggest to me that if there is to be a review, it should be undertaken now rather than be put off to the time of a second session of the twenty-third parliament which conceivably might never be held.
In connection with returning officers to whom I have made reference, I should like to ask the Secretary of State whether there is in the mind of the government any intention to make any wholesale changes in the appointment of returning officers. I know there are some who are under the impression that the chief electoral officer appoints the returning officers in the various constituencies. The hon. lady knows that is not correct. They are appointed by the governor in council-or in other words by the cabinet- and they are communicated to the chief electoral officer who publishes their names and addresses in the Canada Gazette. As a matter of fact, he is required by section 8(4) of the Canada Elections Act to publish that list in the Canada Gazette between the first and the twentieth days of January in each year. At the present time, unless some have died or have withdrawn from the position for one reason or another, the returning officers are those who were named in January of 1957. I have no brief for any particular returning

officer. I am not suggesting that any returning officer should be replaced. But I think it is a proper question to ask whether those who are the present incumbents can assume that they will be continued or whether there is any intention on the part of the present government to make a change.
I was pleased that the hon. lady indicated that the question of the rate per line to be paid for the printing of the voters' lists is under review by the chief electoral officer. I am hopeful that this is the kind of change that could be made without an amendment to the act and if he recommends an increase in the rate per line, I trust that it will be brought into effect. From the information that I have from my own city of Winnipeg, both from employers and employees-that is from the management and from the trade union side-I can assure her that there were a number of trade union shops in the city of Winnipeg which felt that they could not take on this work this year at the rate that is now allowed.
There is one other subject on which I should like to say a few words even though it has been spoken to at some length. As a matter of fact, it is perhaps for that reason that I want to say this further word about it. I am delighted at the number of members who have expressed the feeling that the time has come to amend the act so far as advance poll privileges are concerned, particularly to widen the qualifications. As hon. members know, I presented a bill a number of times, in fact, there is one on the order paper right now-whether or not it will be reached, I do not know-suggesting that the privilege of voting at advance polls should be extended to any qualified voter who finds that he will be absent from his polling division on election day for any reason whatsoever. I may say frankly that I cannot see that there is any reason for any restriction. This is one of the issues where both the Canadian Labour Congress and the Canadian Chamber of Commerce take the same view and I hope that favourable consideration will be given to this change.
I should now like to call one more witness in support of the proposition that the advance poll should be extended to all who find that they will be away, even if they are away on vacation. My witness is a very important one and he is a very highly respected member of this House of Commons, one to whom I have already had the privilege of paying my personal tribute. I refer to the hon. member for St. Paul's, His Honour the Speaker.
The fact that the hon. gentleman is the Speaker means that he does not take part in the debates in this house. I would not want to quote something which he had written if

I was going to argue with him but I feel I am at liberty to quote something of his with which I am in agreement. I hold in my hand a very excellent piece of election literature put out by the Progressive Conservatives in the constituency of St. Paul's urging the reelection to this House of Commons of a gentleman referred to in this leaflet as "Roly Michener".
On the fourth page of this document I find some useful information which was made available to the electors of St. Paul's concerning election arrangements. One of these bits of information reads as follows:
If you are a commercial traveller, an airline pilot or stewardess, a railway employee or a sailor you may vote in the advance poll from nine a.m. to seven p.m. Thursday, Friday and Saturday, June 6, 7, and 8 (sorry, but Liberal government regulations will not permit advance poll for vacationers).


Mr. Fraser:: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The
member for Peterborough is correct; he is right-that is the way the act reads as put on the statute books by the Liberals, but I do not forget the fact that when my bill was before this house last session it was supported by this party, by the Social Credit party, by the member for Mackenzie River who has just spoken and by one or two other Liberals but it was opposed by the Liberals in the main and by all the Conservatives who were present.
Now however one of the foremost Conservatives, indeed the first commoner, has had it put on record that he objects to the Liberal government regulations having denied advance polls to vacationers. I agree fully with what His Honour has said and I hope that although he is not now on the floor where he can argue with regard to these matters the government will pay attention to what he has said, when some of the rest of us bring it to the attention of the ministers across the way.
I therefore hope, Mr. Chairman, that the growing support for this proposal will result in action being taken at an early date.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to prolong this debate on advance polls and I think this is scarcely the time to do so. We may be able to take up the matter when the hon. member's bill is before the house. I would however just like to say that if my memory serves me well, without the legislation before me, the measure of the hon. member, while it provided for an advance poll 10 days before election it did not provide for an advance poll two or three days before election.
I could not help but think yesterday when the hon. member for Kootenay West was
Supply-Secretary of State speaking that his firefighters would have been out of luck because they did not know 10 days beforehand that they were going to be away fighting a fire, and a great many people who are absent for reasons other than the pursuit of their business also do not know that far ahead. I just make this comment in passing. With respect to the change in returning officers, I am sure the hon. member is quite familiar with the provisions of section 8 of the Canada Elections Act. I can only say to him that this is a law-abiding government; we intend to proceed according to the act unless and until that act is changed and it is not the intention of this government, during this particular session, to propose any change in the act.
With regard to the election date I am beginning to wonder, Mr. Chairman, just what goes on around here. Personally I am preparing for the next session of this parliament.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: But after listening to the hon. member for Kootenay East, who represents the official opposition in this parliament, and now the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, who represents another group, I wonder if the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre would tell me-since he is in the house -whether the two of them are preparing to "gang up" on this government.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Chairman I would just like to say a word or two with regard to the question of enumeration. I know of cases where a person has been enumerated, has received his enumeration slip and felt sure he was on the election list but when the preliminary list was printed and forwarded, perhaps to one of his friends he looked at the list, discovered he was not on it after all. This is in spite of the fact that his name was written on the list given to the returning officer by the enumerator and the mistake would have been made by the printer who, in checking it over, had left off this particular name.
That means that the person involved has to go either to the returning officer with the slip he has received and get a certificate saying he can vote, or else go to the revising officer. In some cases of which I know these people are cripples who could not walk upstairs and it has meant that they had to go themselves, taking this slip with them. Where it has been a question of going to a revising officer, of course, an affidavit can be taken but in many cases the mistake has not been discovered until it has been too late to adopt this method of correcting the situation. I am wondering if there is any way by which the slip shown to the deputy returning officer could be taken as authority to vote.

Supply-Secretary of State


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, it is not supposed to be taken as authority to vote but I know that in some cases the privilege has been accorded to a person holding an enumerated slip. I might say however to the hon. member that the voter himself does not have to apply to the returning officer; it can be done by proxy. Someone can take it for him and procure a certificate enabling him to vote.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But generally they do not find out until a day or so before election, or perhaps a week ahead of time, and then it is too late.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, they may take it right to the returning officer rather than a revision board.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Another matter which I mentioned was the question of stairs and I just wondered if the hon. minister could advise the chief electoral officer to ask the returning officer to try and locate polling booths in places where people do not have to climb a dozen or more stairs. I have heard of cases where ankles and legs have been broken in some places which are not very well lit and of course there is also the question of persons with heart conditions.


Mr. Bryce:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to bring forward a grievance before the minister which concerns the fishermen in my constituency who very seldom have the privilege of voting. We all agree I am sure that our people in Canada should have this privilege. We preach to them: Whatever you do get up and vote; it does not matter for whom you vote, but be sure to vote.
Now these fishermen have not had that privilege. It appears that the favourite time for elections is during some time in June and the fishermen from the districts of Riverton, Selkirk, Hnausa, Arnes, Gimli and Winnipeg Beach have to leave about the 29th or 30th of May. They must go to the fishing grounds which in some cases are about 200 miles away. Now the hon. lady may say to me "Well, what should I do about that?" Well, I would say "Extend the time for the advance polls." The last election was held on June 10 and these chaps had to be at the fishing grounds on June 6 so they did not get a vote.
I do not think anybody wants to do them out of a vote but I would like the hon. lady to see if she could get an amendment so as to enable an extension of the advance polls so that the fishermen in lake Winnipeg will have the right to their vote.
I think every good Canadian should vote, and these men complain bitterly to me about not having an opportunity. Election year after election year they have been deprived of the franchise. I am not going to take up

a lot of time, but I see in the papers that there has been an awful lot of telegraphing of votes going on in different parts of the country, and maybe we will be able to get the fishermen trained to radio in their votes.


Mr. Byrne:: Mr. Chairman, last evening
I was endeavouring to assist the Secretary of State inasmuch as I felt that many of the problems which were raised at that time might better be raised when the committee sits, and I want to assure the hon. lady that my prognostications were based on the warlike speeches and "brinkmanship" that were used by hon. members of the government party.


Harold Edward Winch: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate
the answers given by the Secretary of State, but I regret that she did not answer-or at least I did not hear her answer-one of the questions which I raised yesterday, and one which is to me of the utmost importance. If the act is not going to be changed before the next election, cannot provision be made for putting the place where a person should vote in a more prominent position on the tear sheet? I hope the Secretary of State has not forgotten that question, and that something will be done about it.
I am not at all sure when the next election will be called-I have not the faintest idea- all I know is that last week I was notified from Vancouver that the returning officers in British Columbia have now received all the supplies which are required, and neither the Liberals nor the Socreds nor the C.C.F. group have anything to say in the sending out of supplies to the returning officers.
There is one other thing I should like to mention while I am on my feet-it is strictly my personal view, but I wonder whether the Secretary of State would give any consideration to it. In the years in which I had the privilege of being a member of the British Columbia legislature I noticed that in the estimates every year provision was made for a conference which dealt with what was known as uniformity of legislation, and that almost every session certain bills were introduced with regard to which members were told: there is no change in principle, this merely follows the recommendation of the nationwide conference to adopt uniformity of legislation. That brought this to my mind-that every five years, at the outside and, as a rule, every four years, every province in Canada has a provincial election. As far as British Columbia is concerned, for a few years they held one almost very year. So far as this house is concerned it is every four years; perhaps the time interval is shorter, but in any case it is not more than every five years that an election is held. This means the establishment of

voters' lists. Under federal legislation there has to be a brand new enumeration every time, a process which costs a lot of money; moreover, enumerations in every province of Canada must also cost a great deal of money.
Has any thought ever been given, or will it be given, to the advisability of establishing, along the lines of uniformity of legislation, a uniformity of eligibility to take part in elections both federal and provincial, and to the maintenance of a continuance up-to-date voters' list available at any time for use in a federal or provincial election, or in the event of a by-election?
I have thought this matter over for quite a few years, and although I recognize that certain technicalities might cause some difficulty I do not think it is impossible to establish uniformity of eligibility and a permanent record of voters which would be available for use in an election anywhere in Canada at any time. I am confident that if this were done hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars would be saved to the taxpayers of this country, and to our provincial and federal governments. I should just like to throw out that suggestion now, and hope consideration may be given to establishing a system in Canada along the lines I have suggested.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I shall be very glad to bring the matter to the attention of the chief electoral officer, and I am sure that when the committee meets he will be glad to hear representations from the hon. member for Vancouver East on this interesting subject.
With reference to the remarks about the place of polling, I must say I find myself in complete agreement with the hon. member for Vancouver East. I have had exactly the same experience as he, and I have found that even in our own committee rooms many of our workers fail to see the location on the preliminary lists. I will consult with the chief electoral officer to determine whether or not he can suggest to the returning officers that this information be printed in larger type. Hon. members will notice that it does appear now in bold-faced type-


Stanley Howard Knowles: But
only in 8 point type.


Harold Edward Winch: But still small.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Oh yes, it is small. It seems to me that it could be in much larger type to draw immediate attention to it and, as I say, I will be glad to draw that matter to the attention of the chief electoral officer. I do not think the mechanics of this proposal are a matter of any great difficulty. I believe
Supply-Secretary of State all that is necessary is to make the suggestion to the returning officers, and it could easily be carried out when they place printing orders.
With reference to the assertion that supplies have already gone out, these are the preliminary supplies, and it is the usual thing that is done after every election. The same procedure is gone through by the chief electoral officer in each case.


George James McIlraith: As far as printing the place of voting on the voters lists is concerned, I want to draw the attention of the Secretary of State to the fact that there is quite a difference in each constituency depending on the particular printer used by the returning officer. In some constituencies the voting place is printed in the same type as other reading material printed alongside of it, but in others printers will set it up in bold-faced type which stands out clearly. This seems a matter which could easily be corrected by a directive from the chief electoral officer, within the scope of the present legislation, and that no additional legislation is needed.
As to the committee of the Canadian Bar Association dealing with uniformity of legislation, I am not aware that this subject of a uniform election act has come before this body. It is probably something which should be suggested to them for consideration, because it will certainly be a great convenience if the election acts of the provinces and of the federal government were similar in their main points. One of the main reasons for this being desirable is that the officials appointed under the federal act very often draw on their experience and knowledge of the provincial election acts and, consequently, you get practices which are perfectly fair as between the parties but which are quite offensive as far as the federal election act goes. These practices are entered into in good faith by the election officers concerned, so I do hope that the Secretary of State will look into this matter to see whether something can be done along the lines of getting uniformity of election acts, at least with regard to the main points. It is a matter that I imagine would take some time. I do not think it could be done quickly but I do wish the minister would take it into consideration.


Frederick George Hahn: Mr. Chairman, what I have to say is very close to what the minister had to say in some of her answers. While she is considering this matter of absentee voting I am sure she will be interested to know-and I give this as an illustration-that one of the fishermen in my riding indicated to me that the last election was the first time he had had a vote since the war. It just so happened that he was not in port on the day on which

Supply-Secretary of State the previous elections were held. Unless they are in port it makes it practically impossible for them to vote. A broadening of the advance poll regulations would certainly be worth while. The fishermen are not included today. If they were included the crew would have the opportunity to vote.
I am particularly interested in another class on which I did not hear the minister comment. I must admit I was not here at all times. I refer to the pay that is given to the enumerators, namely 10 cents a name.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I did comment on that.


Frederick George Hahn: Yesterday?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: No, today.


Frederick George Hahn: I am sorry; I missed it. I wonder whether the minister would repeat it.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, what I said was-and the hon. member is aware of this-there was some change in the remuneration in the last election. Although the per-name rate was maintained, a minimum was established in an effort to secure a more efficient enumeration. Now, in some instances I understand the new rates did not work out as well as had been expected but I can assure the hon. member that the chief electoral officer is considering it very carefully.


Ernest James Broome: Mr. Chairman, I have one item I should like to draw to the attention of the minister. It has to do with the use of schools as polling locations. In the last election the Vancouver school board made the schools available at the request of one returning officer and they then broadened their permission to include schools throughout the city.
The schools are used in municipal and provincial elections in British Columbia. In those schools you have not the problem of stairs. The location is well-known to all of the residents in the area. They are used to going there and voting. The surroundings have a dignity to them that you do not get in the ordinary polling places. It worked out very satisfactorily but only one returning officer in all of Vancouver took advantage of the offer of the Vancouver school board. They are considering whether, when the next election comes along, they might not even close down their schools for two or three hours. They do not need to do that because you can use the gymnasium or the auditorium and set up as many as 10 to 12 polling stations in the one location.
The one returning officer to whom I am referring is permitted to hire special constables. Well he hired one for about 10 polls. That man acted to direct traffic. I visited as many polling stations as I could on election day and the business of the day was being con-

ducted in those schools and in those multiple polling areas much better than in the individual homes. I do not understand why more use has not been made of such public facilities by the electoral officers. It seems to me to be a sensible and a wise way of handling it and I would commend it to the minister.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I listened with keen interest to what the hon. gentleman just said and I should like to support him very strongly in the remarks he has made. I have particular reference to what happened in the constituency of Laurier during the last election day on June 10. I am not free to speak of those irregularities which took place -I would like to-because there is an investigation taking place at the present time; but I am sure that had the polling stations been established in a school, in a gymnasium, or in some other public hall, it would not have been possible for those irregularities to have taken place.
I have discussed the matter with the returning officer in the constituency and I think he, too, is of the view that consideration should be given by the chief electoral officer and by the minister as well, I am sure, to this suggestion. It would avoid those irregularities and it would avoid people going into the polling booth in groups, particularly when the polling booth is in a small room of a house. I think there is a great deal to be said in favour of it. There have been irregularities, not only in my constituency, but in other constituencies elsewhere in the province of Quebec, and it does strike me that this would be an excellent suggestion which the minister should take into consideration and give careful study to.
If I understand the act correctly, I believe it is the responsibility of the returning officer to make a recommendation to the chief electoral officer who afterwards decides whether in his judgment and in the circumstances existing in the particular riding it is appropriate to have the polling stations in a public building of some sort. But I do want to go on record as supporting to the fullest extent that kind of suggestion and I trust the minister will give it the consideration it deserves.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, I think we all agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Laurier and the hon. member for Vancouver South. I think it is fair to say that the practice which they wish to correct has already been corrected in some ridings in this country. I know that within my experience the returning officer that I have to work with in my constituency has almost invariably- as far as I know invariably-picked a public

place when a public place was available at a convenient location. It is the normal practice in a village, town or hamlet that the polling place is in the community hall. Out in the country, if there is a schoolhouse available at a central location, the polling place is usually in the country school. I think it is a good practice. I agree with the support that has been given to this idea.
As far as my own constituency of Assini-boia is concerned, my returning officer, Jack W. O'Neil, of Viceroy, Saskatchewan who was appointed by the previous administration, has done a very good job. There is one practice that I think we all agree has grown up. The enumerators and clerks in rural polls, and the other officials in urban polls, have been appointed almost solely-at least to a large extent-on the basis of the party which they have supported. In the past the returning officer has appointed people who have supported the Liberal party. I do not think that is a good practice; I do not think it is a necessary practice and I do not think it is of any political advantage to the party in power. The general instructions which go out to the returning officers today, when they are finding officials to carry on this very important duty, should be to obtain the services of the people who can do the best job and not to give them first of all a blood test to find out how they voted in the previous election.
I am hoping that under the new government there will be a change in attitude. In my own constituency there will have to be because I do not think there were sufficient supporters of the present administration in the last election to man all the polls. Therefore, there is a very real opportunity to pick all these people on the basis of the job that they can do. I would ask the minister to take that into consideration. I do not think Canadians today appreciate, or approve generally, the attitude that you have to be a supporter of the government in power before you can obtain any of the small jobs as far as pay is concerned, but very important jobs as far as the welfare of our country is concerned and the proper functioning of the democratic system.
I go along with those who have said that there must be changes in the election act in order that the thousands of people who are now disfranchised in elections will get the vote. Mention has been made many times-it is not necessary to repeat it-that many people are away from home on election day and that the provision as to people who may vote at advance polls is far too restricted. As I see it, the mere extension of the qualifications with respect to people who may vote at advance polls is not going to do the full job
Supply-Secretary of State in probably half of the ridings in the country. The experience we have had is that there are very few advance polls in rural ridings and if a person is eligible to vote at an advance poll he may have to travel 50 or 100 miles to reach that poll.
Therefore the mere extension of the qualifications in regard to those who can vote at advance polls so that more people may vote is not going to meet the situation fully. It might help to provide a great many more advance polls. Along with the suggestions that have been made, it would seem to me that the various election acts should be as uniform as possible. The government should be aware that in a growing number of provinces people now are able to vote by absentee ballot in a provincial election and when a federal election comes along they are completely confused. They have had a chance to cast their ballot in a provincial election if they are away from home. When a federal election comes along they assume they have the same privilege. They have probably been somewhat careless but the result is that they are not able to vote. They are not able to obtain a copy of the election act in order to study it. They assume they will have the same rights and they are disfranchised.
But there is a particular group that I think should be given special consideration. I think it is a shame that provision is not made for patients in hospitals to vote on election day. I think it is a shame that people who have to go to hospital after the writs are issued are disfranchised. Surely some special consideration should be given to this problem. People do not go to hospitals for fun and they should be given the chance to vote. There are polling stations in some hospitals but that does not mean that the patients who have to enter hospital after the writs have been issued can vote. The hospital polls are for the staff, the people who are ordinarily resident in that area, in the same way as any other poll. Therefore I ask that special consideration be given to people who are patients in hospitals.
There may be difficulties in providing an absentee ballot such as we have in some of the provinces whereby on election day a person can walk into any polling booth anywhere in the province, ask for a ballot, receive it and vote in his own electoral district. It seems to me that consideration should be given to providing that a person qualified to vote at one poll in an electoral district may cast his ballot in any other poll in that electoral district. The problem would not then be encountered of people changing from one electoral district to another and I think that

Supply-Secretary of State a great majority of the people otherwise disfranchised would be given the chance to cast their vote.
Will the Secretary of State assure the house that these points and others will be given consideration by the government? I do not imagine anyone present today knows precisely when the next election will be. I think there should be a committee at this session but if there is not going to be one then I point out that we are in a committee now where suggestions have been made and I hope that consideration will be given to those suggestions and that appropriate amendments to the act will be introduced.


Thomas James Irwin: Mr. Chairman, I have the idea that the minister probably has some difficulty with my accent which is similar to that of the hon. member for Selkirk. May I assure her that if she has she has only to draw it to my attention and I will do the best I can to clarify. Yesterday I mentioned something about the service vote and I understood the minister to say that I was misinformed. I may be misinformed orally at times but I can assure her that my eyes are rarely misinformed. When I was elected on June 10 last the minister's party just did not believe that 38 votes were enough to elect me. They had a recount and I won by 59 votes. When the recount was held the service votes were counted. I actually saw the ballots and I can assure the minister that a number of the ballots bore the designation "Social Credit" and a number "Liberal" and they were accepted as valid ballots by the learned judge who presided over the recount. I do not see any reason why the name of the party that the candidate represents should not be included on the ballot paper.
The hon. member for Assiniboia brought up the question of getting poll clerks and deputy returning officers from the various parties. May I suggest that the chief electoral officer suggest to his returning officers throughout the country that as far as possible they get their deputy returning officers and poll clerks from veterans organizations. They will get them without very much trouble and they will get a fairly large number of them. It might help to overcome the difficulty that faced the returning officer in my constituency on June 10. He finally had to turn to the Social Credit in order to get deputy returning officers and poll clerks, and we were delighted to see that he got them. That, of course, in the minds of some, might have had something to do with the result of the election. I would not know that, but I suggest to the minister that the best results could be obtained by applying to the proper authorities such as veterans organiza-


tions, parent-teacher associations, community associations and so on. Far better results will be achieved in securing deputy returning officers and poll clerks than by taking them from the various political parties.
I also understand that some hon. members misunderstood me yesterday when I referred to fishermen being disfranchised. They were not disfranchised because they were fishermen. Provision is made for fishermen to vote at advance polls, but these men were disfranchised for the simple reason that in the riding of Burnaby-Richmond only Burnaby is eligible for an advance poll. There is no provision for an advance poll in Richmond. As it so happens, the fishing district at Steveston in Richmond is a long way from the centre of Burnaby where the returning officer had his office, and because these fishermen did not arrive home until early on the last day they were disfranchised.


The Chairman:: Shall the item carry?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I can let the last statement pass without making a comment on it because of its possible effect on some future occasion when a recount is made. I would be the last person to set myself up as an authority against the opinion of a learned judge but it is definitely not in accordance with the Canadian forces voting regulations to mark ballots in the manner described by the hon. member. Section 34 states in part that the elector shall cast his vote secretly by writing thereon with ink or with a pencil of any colour the names or initials and surname of the candidate of his choice. Furthermore, section 78 says that in the counting of the votes the scrutineer shall, with the approval of the special returning officer, reject all ballots, and then it goes down to (b), that have not been marked with the name of any candidate.


Mr. McWilliam:: I should like to raise a matter now, and I appreciate the minister might not be in a position to answer at this time but I would appreciate it if she would give me an answer at an early date either by letter or whatever means she may prefer. I should like to know what would be the position of a candidate on filing nomination papers in a federal general election or federal by-election when he has failed to file a return of his election expenses at a previous election. This question has arisen in a good many cases across Canada, where a candidate was unsuccessful in one election and did not comply with the Canada Elections Act by filing a return of his election expenses. Then in a later election he was nominated as a candidate and was accepted.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I would be glad to try to secure an answer to that. I do not think I should take it upon myself to answer offhand.


Frederick George Hahn: In so far as the reply the minister made to the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond is concerned with regard to the acceptance or rejection of ballots on a recount, I think the minister will discover that the jurists do not necessarily use the election act in making decisions on some of these ballots.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I recognize that.


Frederick George Hahn: Under the circumstances, I think she would agree that it would be for the jurists to decide whether or not he would accept it.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I have already said that, in effect.


Frederick George Hahn: I should like also to endorse what the hon. member for Assiniboia had to say in respect to setting up polling stations in hospital areas, and particularly within the hospital itself. I would ask the minister to give consideration to the possibility of setting up polling stations within hospitals. We have many instances where those in hospitals ask us if it is not possible for them to exercise their franchise. They are denied that right because they cannot get out of the hospital. It would be desirable, where we have large institutions of that type, to have that done. I make that request because I find that the servicemen in our Shaughnessy hospital in Vancouver can vote. I know that perhaps certain individuals might not be permitted by the doctors to exercise their franchise, but there are others who are not quite well enough to go out and who would find it desirable to exercise their franchise if a poll were placed in the hospital.


Stanley Howard Knowles: should like to say a further word, Mr. Chairman, about the matter which has been discussed between the minister and the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond. I do not intend to get into the argument between the minister and the judge. In fact, that argument being raised, I feel, gets us away from the point that was made by the member for Burnaby-Richmond. As I understand it, his point was that service personnel are entitled by law to know the political affiliations of all candidates whose names are on the ballot. This is set out clearly in section 15 of schedule 3 to the Canada Elections Act which is entitled "Canadian Forces Voting Regulations." It provides that the list of candidates sent to places where the service personnel are located must include the
Supply-Secretary of State political affiliations of candidates. The appropriate words read as follows:
-upon such list shall be inserted after the names and surname of each candidate, the designating letters currently used to indicate his political affiliations, such designating letters shall be ascertained from the best sources of information available to the chief electoral officer.
I quite understand how some of these service personnel made the mistake but it seems to me that the mistake, the subject of discussion between the hon. lady and the judge, is beside the point. The fact is that we do allow service personnel to know the political affiliation of those whose names are on the ballot. Why can we not be equally sensible so far as the civilian population is concerned?
There is another question I should like to put to the Secretary of State. Can she tell us where the cost of the last election, which I believe she gave to the house in another way, shows up in a book like the estimates, for example. The estimates now before us show a token item of $25,000 for expenses of elections in the year 1957-58. When the new estimates come down I suppose there will be a token item in them. Where does the actual cost of the election held on June 10 show up in any official records of parliament?
My last question on this item is one that I thought perchance the hon. member for Northumberland-Miramichi was going to ask when I saw him rise, in view of the fact he was the chairman of the committee on privileges and elections in the last parliament. The question relates to the matter of redistribution, and more particularly to the recommendation of a committee of this house during the last parliament that study should be given to methods of redistribution including the possibility of having that job done by an independent commission. When I questioned the previous secretary of state about this a number of times he assured us that material was being collected but it was always at the next session that this matter was going to be studied. I wonder if the previous secretary of state left behind the material he had collected and whether the present Secretary of State has taken a look at this material and whether she can say what the policy of the new government is towards parliament being given a chance to study redistribution by an independent commission.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: In reply to the last
question, it has not been considered by this government as yet. If the material referred to is in my department, it has not been drawn to my attention as yet.

Supply-Secretary of State Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):	known by some kind of advertising cam-
Or as the Minister of Public Works says, paign. That, of course, requires money which maybe it is on the shelf or under the bed. the estimates must take care of.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The cupboards are clean in my department.
With regard to the first question the hon. member asked, the expense of the election to which he referred appears as a statutory item in the book of estimates. It was a token amount to cover by-elections. The amount for the general election is paid from the consolidated revenue fund.


Stanley Howard Knowles: presume it will show up in the public accounts.


Mr. Fisher:: Perhaps Port Arthur is a fortunate place, but we do have most of our polls in schools and there is no real question of patronage in our constituency. It seems to me, however, if we follow up the logic of the proposal made by the hon. member for Assiniboia we will have to do something about this question of urban enumeration. At the present time people who are selected to do the enumerating are drawn from the two parties which finish highest in the poll. I would suggest the matter be taken under consideration.
I should like to return again to the comment I made yesterday in connection with the nationwide campaign at election time of the junior chambers of commerce which is designed to get the people out to vote. I feel that there is not enough advertising of the courts of revision. Having regard to the position that the minister holds, I feel that she might take advantage of this co-operation that is given to the whole electoral process by the junior chamber of commerce in getting them to concentrate some of their advertising and their energy upon the question of advertising the courts of revision so that no citizen will go without knowing what the court does and how it can affect his vote.
On the other point that I mentioned yesterday, namely the question of hours off for the purpose of voting to which every elector is entitled. We had a number of embarrassing cases in our constituency. In one of them I was well set to go ahead with the prosecution until I discovered that the foreman who was involved in refusing to let an employee off work to vote was unaware of the condition. Then even later I was pleased to discover that there had been no prosecution because I learned that he was a member of our party. I feel that in this particular case not enough workers know their right. It seems to me that it is the duty of the constituency returning officer to make that right


Mr. Kucherepa:: I should like to make a few remarks on the subject which is now before us. I certainly agree that we need some amendments to the Canada Elections Act, especially with respect to the extension of the advance poll. I think we might well consider a far larger group of electors who should qualify in this field. Further, I think that we could probably handle our active hospital vote in this way. The hospitals for the chronically ill are as a rule subdivisions in themselves. The active hospitals are not as a rule and they have listed there only the interns and the staff. But if we were to make provision for an advance poll, I am sure that even in large municipalities where a hospital may be located at a boundary line the returning officers in two different ridings or even three different ridings could set up an advance poll in those hospitals.
Furthermore, I think we should also consider the possibility of making some change in the appointment of deputy returning officers and clerks so as to have it compare in a way with the set-up which we have for enumeration which works, in my opinion, very well.
With regard to the posting of voters' lists on trees and poles, I do not know whether or not this is the most satisfactory arrangement. In the city of Toronto, in municipal elections in the past it has been the practice to post the voters' lists in schools, fire halls and other public institutions. During the past year we have made further amendments in order to allow those lists to be posted on poles. I think we might well consider the possibility of adding to the advertising of the voters' lists by putting them in the post offices and schools as well as in the present locations. It was my experience in the past campaign that in some cases no sooner were lists posted than they were down the next day. I would think that furthering this objective of advertising voters' lists might be in the best interests of getting more people on the voters' lists without the last-minute flurry. These are the few observations that I wanted to make at this time. I hope that some of the other suggestions which have been made by other hon. members will also be taken up by the proper committee and be given due consideration.


Mr. Smiih (Lincoln):: I should like to address a question to the hon. lady. It is rather in the lighter vein and she is not obliged to answer it unless she wishes to do so. During the last election my name, John

Smith, was used on the sample ballot. I was just wondering whether she was making any change this time.


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: Make it John Doe.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil Service Commission-
46. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, including a grant of $3,000 to the Public Personnel Association to assist in defraying the costs of its international convention to be held in Canada in 1957, $2,961,606.
Stanley Howard Knowles: In
view of certain changes that have taken place in the set-up of the civil service commission recently and certain changes that are pending, I wonder whether the Secretary of State has a general and informative statement to make on this item?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Because of the fact
that those changes are still being made and because of the fact that there are a number of matters under consideration at the present moment, I had decided not to make a statement at this time. However, hon. members are free, of course, to ask questions if they wish to do so.


Mr. Herridge:: I should like to ask the hon. lady a question with respect to transfers from one department to another. I understand that is something that can be done with reasonable facility between most departments but I am told that civilian employees of the Department of National Defence find it extremely difficult to get transfers to other government departments if they so wish. Would the minister inform the house of the present procedure with respect to transfers from one department to another and whether there is any difference in that procedure in so far as the civilian employees of the Department of National Defence are concerned?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am informed that
the procedure is the same in all departments. The transfer requires the consent of the deputy minister of the department in which the employee is currently engaged and the move also requires the consent of the civil service commission.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I have had several complaints made to me in this connection. I understand that the employees of the Department of National Defence find it much more difficult to get transfers than do the employees of any other department.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I fancy in that respect the hon. member should probably speak to the Minister of National Defence.
Supply-Secretary of State


William Hector McMillan: I wonder whether the hon. lady can tell us the number of civil servants? Can she tell us the total number of civil servants?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: The last number, as published by the dominion bureau of statistics, was about 148,000.


William Hector McMillan: Is the number about the same as that a year ago or two years ago?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: It is slightly more.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister comment on the wage and salary situation in the civil service? I am not asking for too lengthy a statement on this matter but as she knows a general adjustment or increase was put into effect just after the new government came into power. Can she say whether that has been made to apply to all civil servants? Can she speak also for public service employees generally, even those who might not be called civil servants as such? Also, can she make a statement as to the extent of the five-day week in the civil service or in the public service? Is it now general or perhaps I should say is it now universal?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I shall answer the last question first. The civil service commission and the treasury board have been considering this question. It has been estimated that there are now about 6,000 classified employees who work longer than 40 hours per week.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Out
of how large a total?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Out of 148,000. It is now estimated that an additional 324 positions would be required at an annual expenditure of approximately $400,000 if the five-day week is granted throughout the service. The whole matter is under constant consideration with a view eventually to bringing them all on the same plane.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps this is an unnecessary comment but I hope that the statement made by the minister as to what it would cost to extend the five-day week to everyone does not mean that those other employees are going to have to be denied a condition which is so general in the civil service. After all so far as the other 142,000 are concerned it is obviously costing more to have them on the five-day week than if their positions were operating on a six-day week basis. As I say, I think this comment is unnecessary, but I can see that the statement the minister has made might be interpreted in some quarters in a way that might cause dismay.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had made it quite clear when I said the

Supply-Secretary of State whole matter is constantly under review. No such imputation should be attached to my statement.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister answer the other question, as to whether the wage and salary adjustments which began about the time when the new government came into power have now reached everyone in the public service.


Mr. Fair dough:: I am given to understand, Mr. Chairman, that the civil service is now covered by the general increase; all classified employees are covered. I think the only people who probably have not been taken complete care of are the deputy ministers.


Mr. Mclvor:: There is a question I would like to ask the hon. minister although I am not sure she is the proper person to answer it. My question is this: With respect to the bringing of pensions for retired civil servants up to the point where they ought to be, is there any consideration or any plan to take care of this matter during this session?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, that is not a matter for the civil service commission.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Thank you.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. minister if there is anything in the regulations which prevents civil servants or persons hired by the civil service in the Northwest Territories or the Yukon from being paid for their transportation to the provinces for the purpose of holidays? I have received complaints in my riding from persons who, say, go into the Northwest Territories to work for a mining company and, after having worked there for some time, have the opportunity to apply for civil service jobs. Having got such a job they take on their duties and then the holiday period comes up. Such people are not provided, as are people hired for instance at Edmonton or Calgary, with transportation home.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think that would have to be a condition of employment of which such a civil servant must have been aware when he transferred from his other position; he must have known that that condition obtained.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Is there anything in the regulations controlling that point?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I am given to understand there is nothing in the regulations of the civil service commission; there may be something under the jurisdiction of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I was wondering if this applied to the Post Office Department and all other departments.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Could the minister explain why the cleaning ladies employed in this building have not yet received a raise as have other employees during the last two weeks, who I understand have received cheques covering such raise.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: This question was raised in the house some time ago. These people are employees of the house and I think the hon. member should speak to His Honour the Speaker, with regard to this subject.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Well I made enquiries and was informed that these people are employees of the Department of Public Works. I want to get to the bottom of this thing; every morning I meet a delegation at eight o'clock and they want me to get some information for them.


An hon. Member:: Do not get here so early.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Since there seems to be some confusion, if the hon. member will send me a note on this matter I will inquire as to just who has jurisdiction over these people and what is the situation.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: I wonder if I could ask the hon. minister if anything is being done to give all the civil servants in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon the same sort of housing accommodation. We now find the Department of Transport provides a house, possibly worth $25,000 with furniture, linen and silverware supplied; Northern Affairs have a house with furniture; the post office provides a house with no furniture and so on. I wonder if the minister could tell me if the civil service commission is looking into this matter and whether a decision may be expected at an early date?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, that is not a matter for the civil service commission. There is an interdepartmental committee on northern affairs which is presently looking into just such matters with respect to government employees in these areas.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Is it not the job of the civil service commission to look after the employee relationships and cases where people in the service, no matter for what department they work, feel they are being discriminated against because they work for one particular branch of the service?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Well, Mr. Chairman, only in a very general way would such a matter come under the commission; nevertheless the commissioners will be glad to take into consideration the member's remarks.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a further question of the hon. minister. Before I do so, since this is the first occasion on which we have discussed the estimates of the civil service commission since the new chairman took over his duties, as a fellow Winnipegger I would like to say how pleased we are at his appointment.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Some time ago I was pleased, as was the hon. the Secretary of State, that a lady was also appointed to the commission. X had better be careful when I mention the fact that she, too, is a fellow Winnipegger and that I believe the civil service commission is therefore in good hands.
From those remarks may I go on to my question. The previous government was asked on several occasions to consider collective bargaining for the civil service and it was either the previous prime minister or the previous minister of finance who promised that a study of this matter would be made, particularly having in mind what is done in the United Kingdom and in some other countries. I would like to know whether the new government is continuing the studies which the former government undertook? I have one other question but perhaps the hon. minister would like to answer that one first and I leave it to her to decide.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes; studies are being continued and may I say on behalf of the chief commissioner and the other commissioners that they thank the hon. gentleman very much for his kind remarks.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just one more question. I was pleased that the new government when it came into office last June acted quickly on the matter of civil service salary increases. I think that the new government would be prepared to admit, however, that it simply implemented something that was already in hand when she previous government was in office. The hon. lady knows that time moves rather quickly these days and, in spite of the confidence of the Minister of Finance that he has checked inflation, the cost of living is still rising and I understand that the civil service will shortly be asking the government for a further increase in salaries and wages to compensate for the rise in the cost of living since the last rates were fixed. Could the hon. the Secretary of State, in the genial and friendly way with which she has capitivated this house, assure the civil 96698-88
Supply-Secretary of State servants that such a request will be given her sympathetic consideration.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, all requests which are made by the civil service employees will be carefully studied and given sympathetic consideration.


Mr. Morris:: Mr. Chairman, there are two questions which I should like to direct to the minister. The first is this: I wonder if she would be kind enough to ask the chairman of the civil service commission-I am glad to see him here this afternoon-if he will let us each have a copy of the text of his provocative speech made in Halifax recently on the philosophy of public service. I, certainly, as a new member would appreciate having a copy of the text of his address if it were available.
The second matter refers to the publication in the Canada Gazette of competitions held under the civil service commission. I am afraid I have left the copy of the Gazette that I wished to bring along back in my room, but if I recollect it rightly it says that in conformity with section 35 of the Civil Service Act the civil service commission herewith announces the following competitions which are now in progress. Several competitions identified as being now in progress were in fact not in progress at the time of publication of the Gazette, having ceased prior to that date. I wonder if we might have some clarification as to whether the Gazette will continue to be the official advertising organ for these competitions or whether the act will be revised so that we may not henceforth count upon publication in the Canada Gazette.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I am told that this matter is under active consideration at the present time. Probably time has caught up with the practice which has been effective, now, for some years. Actually the commission relies on advertising in the post offices and in newspapers; the Canada Gazette is really the official record.


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Secretary of State would check with the various departments of government which hire workers, especially in the northland, and recommend to them that they pay one scale of wages for a particular job. What is happening now, usually in regard to the hiring of native labour, is that the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources will hire an Indian to do labouring work and pay him $1.20 an hour. The Department of Citizenship and Immigration will hire a native in the same community to do labouring work and pay him $1.00 an hour;
1380	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys then some other department will come in and hire the same people as labourers at $1.40. I wonder if the Secretary of State will take the trouble to advise the departments concerned that the rates should be the same, and I hope she will recommend the highest rate.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Mr. Chairman, I understand that Miss Addison, the commissioner, has just returned from this territory and is making a report on this condition. It is probably a matter of the rates for certain types of work, but nevertheless it will be looked into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Henri Courtemanche: That completes the estimates of the Department of the Secretary of State.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS Administration services-
213. Departmental administration, $530,620.
(Translation):


Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it is the minister's intention to report to the house on the activities of his department.
(Text) :


Hon. Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Chairman, my statement will be a short one, on account of the fact that these estimates were prepared by the former government.


Pierre Gauthier: Good estimates.


Jean Lesage: Well prepared.


Paul Comtois: I hope so, but they have not been discussed yet. Wait for the criticism.
Since the date of my appointment as minister of this department I have carefully examined these estimates, together with my officers, and as a result it has been found possible to divert approximately $500,000 to other requirements which were not foreseen at the time these estimates were prepared. Specifically, about $250,000 was used to help defray the cost of the general salaries revision of May 1, 1957, and a smaller amount was used to assist in settling accounts resulting from the grounding of the C.G.S. Baffin in July, 1957. Hon. members will appreciate that had this action not been taken it would have been necessary to request additional funds by way of supplementary estimates in order to cover these items.
It must be borne in mind that the efforts of my department are concerned mainly with national development and scientific research and, in such directions, a maximum effort is required at the present time to enable us to keep pace with rapidly changing requirements in the scientific and technical fields.
Before closing, Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the committee whether it would
[Mr. Hardie.l

agree to postponing questions or discussion with regard to coal, or the dominion coal board, until we reach items 238 and 239. I hope everyone will agree that this be done in order that there may be no confusion in the discussion of the different items.


Henri Courtemanche: Is the committee agreed that discussion on the question of coal be deferred until we reach items 238 and 239?
Agreed.
(Translation):


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I had hoped that the minister would avail himself of this opportunity to report to the house on the activities of his department. I understand however that the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys were prepared by the previous administration, and this naturally accounts for the brevity of his remarks. Still, I am pleased to note that the minister has had no comment to offer on the remarks made by his colleague, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming). The latter had stated that there had been an enormous amount of waste and extravagance in government departments. The fact that the minister has had nothing to say shows that, in his department at least, there has been no evidence of either waste or extravagance.
Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks to make with regard to the mining industry. However, before going any further, I would like to offer my warmest congratulations to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois) for the great honour which has come his way. He is now at the head of a very important department and I wish him every success. I know that he will grant every request we may have to make of him.
(Text) :
Mr. Chairman, I was hoping, too, that the minister would take this opportunity to give us a more complete answer to the question I put to him on October 16 regarding the amendment of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. I was hoping that the minister would announce that the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act was to be amended so as to make it more profitable for gold mines to operate and thus more profitable to the gold miners, to the small property owners in the mining communities and to those who are dependent on this industry.
I should like to take this opportunity also to tell the minister that he is very lucky to be in charge of such a department as the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, because he has under him a group of men and women who are devoted, who are very able and I know they will facilitate his work.

In the past the heads of the different branches of the department have done some excellent work. Their employees have done whatever they could to improve the services of this department. Therefore, I wish to pay tribute to them for their devotion to the mining industry.
Not very long ago an important event took place, Mr. Chairman. From September 8 to October 9, 1957 Canada played host to the sixth commonwealth mining and metallurgical congress. In fact, we were hosts to an imposing group of mining people from 35 different countries. To show the importance of this congress I think it would be appropriate for me to read what was published about it in the Northern Miner of October 17:
As a means of showing Canada's mining skills and wares to the world-to say nothing of displaying her scenery, her vastness, and her varied resources-it was an unqualified success. We doubt if any industry in any country has ever had a finer opportunity to place itself under scrutiny. Visitors from all over the world saw Canadian mining in wide perspective. They were able to see its diversity, observe its magnitude, study its enterprise, and evaluate its potential.
The article goes on to say:
We think, however, that the congress did more than all this. While primarily a Canadian exposition, it permitted many people from many countries to meet each other, to exchange ideas, to compare notes and problems. Everyone on the tour learned much about Canada, of course, but it is a good guess that he learned much about many other countries, as well. Such a growth of acquaintanceship can work wonders in the spreading of understanding, the establishment of friendships, and the deepening of international appreciations.
The sixth commonwealth mining and metallurgical congress did not just happen. It resulted from many months of planning and hard work by a great many enthusiastic workers on many committees in many places. To all of them goes unlimited credit for a task that was ably accomplished.
I wish to say here, Mr. Chairman, that some of those who worked hard on organizing this congress are precisely those who are on the personnel of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. Then, many other organizations did some good work in making this congress a real success. For myself, I had the pleasure to attend one of the meetings of the congress and I can say I was surprised to see the size of it and to see the interest in our mining industry of those who were visiting Canada.
There are other questions on which I should like to say a few words. I should like to deal mostly with the present situation in our mineral production. There are some soft spots in mineral production in Canada, and I am sure that when we see the statistics at the end of the year we will find that mineral production has suffered a substantial setback. The volume of mineral production for 1957 will be down not only in value but in physical 96698-88J
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys volume as well. In 1956 the total production amounted to $2,068 million and the physical volume had increased by nearly 275 per cent as compared with 1935. There will be a substantial decrease and, of course, the decrease will be mostly in the metallics division.
If hon. members will look at the statistics for the end of July-these are the latest statistics we have on the production of Canada's leading minerals-they will find that the production of copper is down in 1957; the production of gold, lead and zinc is down and the production of silver is also down. By the end of the year we shall find that for the first time since 1946 the total value of the production and also the physical volume of production will be down.
We have a special problem in the lead and zinc producing industry. At noon today I read an article in the Financial Post of November 23 which was entitled:
Canada Looks Like Losing U.S. Lead Tariffs Fight
I am afraid that within the next few months the zinc and lead producers in the United States may succeed in convincing the special tariff committee of the United States to increase the tariff on zinc and maybe establish quotas. Of course, in this matter the President of the United States has the last word and I hope he will not permit this increase in tariff because it would be very detrimental to the industry in Canada.
The zinc and lead producing industry in our country is a very substantial one. In the production of zinc Canada ranks second only to the United States. Of course, the largest producers are in British Columbia. The second largest producer is the Flin Flon mine in Manitoba. Lead and zinc mines producing ores and concentrates are also found in Quebec, Ontario, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. The trouble with the industry right now is the low price for zinc and lead, especially for zinc. The price is 10 cents a pound in the United States and Canada and 1 think it is only 81 cents in the United Kingdom.
This is a difficult situation and if on top of this low price the United States decides to impose tariffs on zinc, which may be as much as 2 cents plus per pound, the industry will be in a very difficult situation. It is estimated that already Canada has shown cooperation with the United States. The mines in the United States complain that Canada is exporting too much lead and zinc to that country but this is not a fact. We have cut down our exports to the United States by a substantial amount. We may not have cut down our exports of zinc but we have reduced our production. I am told that it is estimated that cut-backs, closures of mines which were forced to close on account of the low price and a general decline in production will

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys account for a 20 per cent reduction in production compared with 1956. This will mean a loss of production of some 80,000 tons of zinc during 1957.
Therefore we are hoping that the President of the United States will see his way clear to veto the decision of their tariff commission and that the tariff will not be increased so that our mines will at least be able to continue on a reduced scale in the production of refined zinc and zinc concentrates. If the president cannot do anything or if he is forced to agree with the tariff commission and increase the tariff, I think our government should look into the matter very carefully and maybe do something. Of course, I do not think that to retaliate against the United States, as was suggested, would be a good thing, but on the other hand if our lead and zinc industry is to suffer to the point that many of the mines have to close then I think something should be done.
It is a fact that many United States smelters depend on concentrates mined more particularly in the eastern part of Canada, in Quebec, Ontario and Newfoundland, in order to operate. Therefore I ask myself if it would not be wise for the government to study the proposal of encouraging the construction of a smelter in the eastern part of Canada in order to take care ourselves of our own concentrates. A very small quantity of concentrates is shipped overseas. I do not think any is shipped to the United Kingdom. We ship refined zinc to the United Kingdom, and if we were to refine more of our own zinc maybe we could find markets elsewhere in order to dispose of part of our zinc production.
I understand that this is a difficult problem because there is overproduction in the world having regard to the amount of consumption. Therefore there have to be cutbacks and some low-grade mines may have to close. On the other hand, it is very important that most of our mines be kept in operation. Moreover, in spite of the fact that we have overproduction I say that we should keep on looking for new mines.
During the last few months a discovery was made about 90 miles north of Senneterre, Quebec, and it would look as though there is a large deposit of zinc, lead, copper, silver and gold. It looks very much like the deposit will contain around 12 per cent zinc, one per cent copper, one or two ounces of silver and a few dollars in gold per ton. It would be very unfortunate if such a large deposit were left there unmined. The mining of the ore would probably provide a considerable amount of work for many men because actually the situation is the same in northern Quebec and northeastern Ontario as was

explained to us the other day by the hon. member for Coast-Capilano with respect to the Britannia mine in British Columbia.
Today we had a report by the Minister of Justice about the situation of the Britannia mine. Here is a mine that has the ore, a mine with the organization to keep itself in operaticn. If the mine closes those people will have to move. I think these problems are quite serious and I hope that the government will give consideration to what was suggested by the hon. member for Coast-Capilano and other members on all sides of the house who are interested in this particular mine in British Columbia.
It is important, as I said a few minutes ago, that we continue to search for new mines because if we wait until we need the product it may be too late. I think the United States are making a mistake by trying to force some of the Canadian mines to curtail their operations and search for minerals. We all remember quite well that during the war we were asked to produce more copper, more zinc and more lead, and that even during the Korean war we were asked to increase our production. I hope that these points will be taken into consideration by the United States government when they have to decide whether or not they will increase the tariff and impose import quotas.
I should like to refer to another industry which is classified under the fuels division. I read an article about oil production and apparently oil production is going at a slow speed in Alberta. In the Financial Post of November 2, 1957 there is the following:
On the oil and gas front-Crude oil nominations in Alberta for November dropped to 289,618 barrels daily-first time since May, 1955 that nominations have slipped below 300,000 barrels a day.
I am not an expert on oil but I understand that those who are experts expected that production would increase during 1957 and they were predicting a very high rate of production for 1958. Apparently the production in 1958 will not be much higher than that of 1957. These are some of the problems with which the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys should be concerned.
I understand that the matter of tariffs is properly the business of the Minister of Finance. Nevertheless, it is the duty of the department of mines to see that the industry is healthy, and the minister could and should make suggestions to the Minister of Finance to ensure the healthy state of this industry.
In so far as the copper industry is concerned, of course the price of copper came down and yesterday I think it was 27 cents in the United States and 25 cents both here and in the United Kingdom. Some mines have experienced difficulty in selling their

copper at even 25 cents and have had to accept a lower price. This is not a matter about which the government can do much because it is governed by demand. Nevertheless, it is tragic in a way to note that some of the mines have closed down. It is tragic also to see prospecting and the search for new copper mines declining. The companies are spending less money for exploration. This is not a good thing. It is not a good thing for us and it is not a good thing for our neighbours to the south. Our neighbours to the south are finding that their reserves of minerals are low, in all minerals except perhaps oil and coal. This situation is especially true of the metallic division.
Some day the United States will be coming to us for minerals. We know that the United States companies have invested large amounts of money here and those companies have engaged in prospecting and exploration. Now, however, our friends from the south are trying to hurt the Canadian mining industry, especially in the way I mentioned earlier, and they should not do that if they want to continue to be on a friendly basis with us. They should be very careful what they are doing.
I do not wish to take too much of the time of the committee, but I cannot allow this occasion to pass without speaking about the difficult situation in which the gold mines find themselves. I feel that the proper time to say something about this is during the consideration of the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. If I say something about the gold mines, I do so on behalf of the gold miners, the ordinary working men and businessmen, the property owners in all the mining communities in Canada. I have a number of mining communities in my own constituency. There are many such communities in the constituency of Timis-kaming and in the constituency of Timmins. There are some in British Columbia, some in northwestern Ontario and some in Manitoba. When I say that more help should be given to the gold mines, I am speaking on behalf of the people who live within those communities or in the smaller communities near large centres.
In northwestern Quebec, and the same situation applies in northeastern Ontario, if it were not for the mining industry there would be very little left for those who wished to work and to continue to live in those sections of our country. There would be the lumbering operations, but they are seasonal. The mining industry is the main industry in this part of our country. In the past, parliament has, as a whole, always endorsed whatever amendments or extensions were introduced to the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. I have heard so much from the
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Minister of Finance, when he was on this side of the house, in support of the gold mines that I feel we should not be too worried. On the other hand, on October 16 when I put a question to the minister of mines he said that he and the Minister of Finance had received a delegation, and with the officials of the department were exploring ways and means of increasing the benefits under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. Although the minister did not use those words he could not be considering decreasing the benefits so I deduced that the government is thinking of increasing the benefits under that act. Since that time we had not heard anything and the people in all parts of the country who are concerned with the gold mining industry are very anxious to hear from either the minister of mines or the Minister of Finance as to what is going to be done to help the gold mining industry.
The other day the hon. member for Timmins said something that I did not like very much. He implied that now somebody would be talking for the gold miners and the gold mining communities. I can tell him that if he reads the speeches I made during the last eight years he will find I never missed an opportunity to speak for the gold miners and the gold mining communities, as did many other members in this house. When we speak of the industry, naturally we speak of the gold mines, but when we are asking for some help we are asking that help for the gold miners and the gold mining community.


The Deputy Chairman:: I am sorry, but I have to advise the hon. member that his time has expired.
(Translation):


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I know the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) will forgive me if I do not follow up the excellent speech he has just given on the mining industry in his constituency.
I am very glad to take part in this discussion on the first item of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, and take this opportunity to congratulate the minister, not only on his appointment to the post which he occupies at this time but also for the courtesy he shows towards hon. members in his answers to their questions and in his general attitude towards them. I might add that some of his colleagues would profit greatly by following his example.
(Text) :
I should like at this stage, sir, to take advantage of your presence in the chair to tell you how pleased I was with your appointment, and to congratulate you and wish you well in the new honour which has fallen to you. I pause for a moment to do that because

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys you and I were next door neighbours for a period of many, many years as members of this house. I want to take advantage of the opportunity when you are in the chair to tell you sincerely, notwithstanding anything that might have happened in the house either recently or over the many years which I have been a member of the house, that I hold you in the highest esteem. I am very happy to see you occupying the position which you now hold.
I rose, Mr. Chairman, to deal with a question which, to me at least and I am sure to many other hon. members whom I will mention in a moment, is of the utmost importance. I refer to the demarcation of the boundary line between the southerly limits of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec on lake St. Francis. This is an old and vexatious problem. It is an old problem because it has existed over 40 years. It is a vexatious one because it has been the cause of a great deal of difficulty to those people who reside on both sides of an imaginary boundary line.
The hon. member for Stormont, my predecessor, has referred to this question on a number of occasions. He has shown a keen interest in it by the questions which he has asked. I am sure he has contributed in no small measure to bringing the question to the attention of the house and that is perhaps about all that can be done.
Along with other hon. members who are familiar with the British North America Act I realize that it is not within the jurisdiction of the minister to settle the question. But nonetheless, I think the minister is in a position,-for the reasons which I will give in a moment-because of the position which he holds, to use his influence or that of his department to bring to the attention of the provinces of Ontario and Quebec this matter which is causing great concern to the people of both provinces who live on either side of the boundary line.
The department over which the minister presides I think has a particular interest, first because of the fact that in that area there lies large numbers of islands, the property of the federal government in trust for the Indians and it is not possible to know in what area, either Quebec or Ontario, these islands are.
Another important reason which I think should interest the federal government is the fact that the St. Lawrence seaway authorities have given no less than $6 million worth of contracts, numbering about six or seven, for the deepening of the St. Lawrence seaway in lake St. Francis, which contracts are now in the course of being executed and where it is impossible to know whether the work being done is in the province of Ontario or in the

province of Quebec. Hence it is a ridiculous position for another crown agency to be in.
If I may, I should like to take just a moment or so to give a quick historical background of the situation. It was in the year 1914, more than 40 years ago, when a trapper was apprehended by a Quebec game warden on a place called Ross island. The Quebec game warden maintained that the trapper was in contravention of the law of the province of Quebec. In other words, he maintained that the island was in the province of Quebec. The game warden went on to state that he had authority to lay a charge under the game and fisheries act of the province against the trapper. It was at that time that the authorities of both provinces began to look into the question, and here is what took place.
Evidently they went back to the original statutes which existed. I hold in my hand the first one or at least one of the earlier ones. I should not say it is the first one because it is not. It is 52-53 Victoria, chapter 28, an imperial statute entitled the Canada (Ontario Boundary) Act. It was passed on August 12, 1889. It goes on to say this:
And whereas such boundaries, so far as the province of Ontario adjoins the province of Quebec are identical with those fixed by the proclamation of the Governor General issued in November, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-one, which have ever since existed:
And one of the clauses of the act reads as follows:
2. It is hereby declared that the westerly, northerly and easterly boundaries of the province of Ontario are those described in the address set forth in the schedule to this act.
Hence even from this early statute of 1889 it is clear that the northerly, westerly and easterly boundaries of the province of Ontario are established but that the southerly boundary which is along lake St. Francis was never delineated. One must therefore go back to the statutes of Upper Canada and the statutes of Lower Canada in order to ascertain where that boundary resides. The Consolidated Statutes of Upper Canada, 14 and 15 Victoria, chapter 4-5, section XI, reads as follows:
The limits of the townships in the county of Glengarry shall in like manner extend to the middle of lake St. Francis, and to the middle of the main channel of the river St. Lawrence, but shall also include all the islands not herein otherwise provided for, the whole or the greater part of which shall be comprised within the outlines of the said townships so prolonged.
The corresponding statute for Lower Canada, which is chapter 75, section 62, of the Consolidated Statutes of Lower Canada, reads as follows:
The county of Huntingdon shall be bounded . . . on the north by the river St. Lawrence, including all islands nearest to the said county and wholly or in part opposite to the same;

From those two statutes in both Upper Canada and Lower Canada, which were afterwards included in the consolidated statutes of the province of Ontario and later the province of Quebec, it became quite clear that the boundary was in the middle of the channel. The point was: Where was the channel? That was the difficult point.
After representations had been made by the federal government to the respective provinces a commission was established to inquire where the middle of the stream was or in other words where the boundary line lay between the two provinces. The commissioner for the province of Ontario, Mr. Rorke and the commissioner for the province of Quebec, Mr. Cote, in 1926, following their appointment as a commission, undertook to settle the question and together they were able to succeed in delineating the boundary on lake St. Francis from the westerly limit of the province of Ontario at Point Beaudette to a point about 300 miles south of Ross island. Beyond that they could not agree.
At that stage the province of Ontario suggested to the province of Quebec that they pass legislation and asked the federal government to approve it. The province of Quebec felt that that would not be the proper course. The province of Quebec said that until the whole boundary line has been delineated from Point Beaudette to the international boundary line opposite the city of Cornwall it would not be advisable to seek legislation from the federal government. However, at a later date the commission was established again and the boundary was delineated for another several miles until now an agreement has been reached between the two provinces to a point opposite what is known as Hamilton's island.
But there still remains another ten miles of boundary line to be delineated between the two provinces. There still remains also the question of having that part of the line upon which an agreement seems to be arrived at consolidated by legislation.
I bring the matter to the attention of the minister because I know of his interest in it.
I know that he will want to do what is possible within the realm of his responsibility to have the boundary agreed upon. I should say to him that for many years I have tried to have something established with reference to the line; I have not been successful and it may be that where I have failed he will be successful. I wish him every success in that respect. I understand-and I say this with all deference-that he is a close friend of the premier of the province of Quebec.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Lionel Chevrier: It may be that he might be able to prevail upon that gentleman that this is really a question of importance, not only for the residents on both sides of the line but also in the general interests of Canada. My colleague in this house, the member for Stormont, I am sure will want to add some words in due course with respect to another reason which I will not pursue at this time because I am sure he will want to do so, but there is another reason of great significance to another department of government which will also be dealt with in due course.
There is this added feature that from time to time people who are either fishing or trapping or hunting in the area extending from Point Beaudette to almost the city of Cornwall, a distance of 30 miles, often do not know in which province they are actually doing these things. I mentioned a moment ago the inconvenience with which the seaway authority might find itself placed. I am not able to point to any particular inconvenience at the moment but I do know this: when the wage rates are different in one province as compared with another, when the unemployment insurance benefits and workmen's compensation benefits are different in one province as compared with another, and when many workers are engaged in work in an area which has not been demarcated, it then becomes difficult to ascertain certain facts.
I therefore make the suggestion to the minister, which does not seem to be unreasonable, that he should in my opinion-and I say this with all deference to him-call a conference of the representatives of the province of Ontario and the province of Quebec here in Ottawa and ask them if they will not set up a commission to complete demarcation of this line from the point upon which they have agreed, beside Hamilton's island to the city of Cornwall, so that we can have the southern boundary of the province of Ontario and the northern boundary of the province of Quebec in lake St. Francis delineated and that it can by statute be approved by this parliament.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I understand that we expect an important visitor about this time. Can I intrude into the arena of debate at this time?


Henri Courtemanche: Proceed.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I rise on this occasion to make my annual appeal-I think it is my seventh-for the reference of these estimates to the committee on mines, forests and waters which has been in a state of suspended animation for 15 years. I am not suggesting that the estimates should be referred to that committee at this session because I recognize the shortness of time and
1386	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the difficulties surrounding the matter, but I do urge that this be done at the next session.
To me it is fantastic that we should have a standing committee on mines, forests and waters remaining moribund for 15 years when the economic development in this country is concerned so with the development of natural resources. This is one of the two departments whose activities are particularly related to the development of natural resources; the other is the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. I think on that account we should have these estimates considered very carefully by the standing committee of the house which is there to do the job if this government only sees fit to get moving into action. In addition, to that, Mr. Chairman, we have an excellent staff-



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:
An act to amend the Old Age Assistance Act.
An act to amend the Blind Persons Act.
An act to amend the Disabled Persons Act.
An act to amend the War Veterans Allowance Act, 1952.
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed in committee of supply, Mr. Courtemanche in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS Administration services-
213. Departmental administration, $530,620.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys off all the more, and the downward pressure on prices would be increased. As the Financial Post reecntly pointed out:
"Instead of a steady market with reasonably stable employment and production for Canadian producers, this country would become merely an emergency source for the United States, a place to turn for extra supplies when the home interests couldn't or wouldn't produce enough."
That was in the Financial Post of July 20, 1957.
This quotation recalls a statement which the same paper made during the previous metals crisis-
I think that was in 1953.
-when proposals similar to the ones now being made for sliding scale tariffs on imported metals were under discussion in the United States Congress.
I understand the matter has been laid over at the present time in the United States but there is no question that it is going to be a matter for discussion in congress early in the new year. I now go on:
"It (the tariff plan) is a shameless attempt to safeguard the marginal producers in the United States by turning Canadian and other efficient exporters into a kind of temporary supply on which the United States will draw only when prices are abnormally high and United States mines cannot meet the demand. Some of these protectionist congressmen have got to be shown that the rest of the world does not exist solely to serve the convenience of the United States."
That is also a quotation from the Financial Post. A good many Canadians are now coming to that point of view.
We understand that the position of the Canadian government is similar to the above, and that protests to this effect have been made to Washington. But they have fallen on deaf ears, and it is plain that something more is needed if the United States is to be made to give proper consideration to this country's vital economic interests.
That is what we in British Columbia believe, that something more is needed than just a verbal protest to Washington. In concluding my quotations I want to quote the final paragraph in this most interesting submission:
In 1952 the United States government urged Canada to expand production and increase exports to the United States by diverting from Canada's normal markets. This is brought out in the submission of the Canadian metal mining association to the United States tariff commission in November, 1953, which stated:
"In the years following world war II the demand for metals continued to grow. The competition for supplies throughout the world was such that lead and zinc were difficult to obtain, and prices reached very high levels in those countries where prices were not controlled. Even as recently as early 1952 the United States government was urging Canada to expand production and to increase exports to the United States. Even though this meant diversion from other normal markets and from markets where prices were much higher than those prevailing in the United States, Canadian producers complied at considerable financial sacrifice. The Canadian industry stood by the United States at a time when its need was stated to be urgent, and Canada is practically the only

country from which the United States is assured of supplies at all times, whether under peacetime or wartime conditions."
Now that markets and circumstances have changed somewhat in the United States that is all forgotten and there are proposals to increase tariffs that will seriously affect the mining industry in British Columbia and across Canada. I do urge the government to take courageous and strong action to meet this situation. I do not underestimate the difficulties. These problems are all complex in our modern society but I am one of the good many in this country who think it is about time that the government of Canada stood up to these people and showed them that we are not going to be pawns of the United States so far as the development of resources, trade and industry is concerned.


Frederick George Hahn: What do you suggest we do?


An hon. Member:: No answer.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for New Westminster asks me to suggest what we should do. I am coming to that point on another issue. I am going to suggest a method of approach which looks like being successful in the near future. We do not know exactly what the present government has done to meet this growing threat, and when the minister replies to the remarks of various members on this item I should like him to say what has been done by the government of the day to meet the situation or what the government proposes to do. The hon. member for New Westminster asked me what would we do in this situation. I think I indicated in my opening remarks that we have a somewhat different approach. I cannot take the time of the house to go into our policies in that respect in full, but we believe that these situations arise because of the lack of a national policy for development and a national plan for investment in this country.


Frederick George Hahn: Hear, hear!


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: We believe that if we had some policy of that type we would not have this boom and bust in the mining industry and in other industries. I am very pleased to hear the hon. member for New Westminster say "hear, hear". We are together on that point.


Ernest George Hansell: You did not tell us what the plan was.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Macleod is so inclined to stimulate his miscroscopic ego by irresponsible, irrelevant and innocuous remarks that make no impression on the Speaker, or this house. I was going to point out that a new approach on a co-operative basis had been shown and

I think that was demonstrated the other day. As the member for the constituency in which the mine is located the hon. member for Coast-Capilano gave a very good recital of the situation that exists with respect to the Britannia mining company and its employees. He explained how the price of copper had dropped, how the company was losing large sums of money, how they then discussed the matter with the employees and agreed to continue to lose a considerable sum of money per month if the employees would forego certain benefits that were due at that time under their contract.
Both the company and the employees made certain sacrifices so that the mine has continued to operate since that time. Then the price of copper fell again and created a new situation in which the losses of the company were greater than it could consider carrying for very long. The union again made a very close study of the situation and also discussed it with the management. Their first action was to call together all the British Columbia members of all parties and the matter was discussed at a meeting held in the Hotel Vancouver over a period of two days. There were members of all parties present who were all sympathetic, and I am very pleased that after the union representatives had presented their difficulties and explained the circumstances there was unanimous agreement among the members from British Columbia on a telegram to be forwarded to the government of Canada in this connection. I will not go into the exact details but they agreed in principle that this matter should receive sympathetic consideration from the government of the country.
As I said before, the situation has deteriorated further since we came to Ottawa. National officers of the union and officers of the local concerned came to Ottawa and called another meeting of British Columbia members of all parties which they gladly attended. After a further explanation of the developments and difficulties in the industry those members once again supported the representations to the meeting, later to be presented to the government. I understand that the union representatives then met some members of the cabinet who gave them a sympathetic hearing. As we heard today, the Minister of Justice when in Vancouver made a further investigation of the situation and met the management, and we understand that the matter is now under sympathetic and serious consideration by the government.
Now, Mr. Chairman, in my opinion that spirit indicates the approach that will be necessary to deal with some of these questions. I understand the Minister of Justice 96698-89J
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys met representatives of the provincial government, as well as management. It is in that spirit we are going to find solutions to these questions, through co-operation by all concerned, management, labour, the federal government and members from British Columbia. I should like to say, and I am proud to say- I think I am correct in this statement- British Columbia is the only province, the members of which from all parties, when its interests are threatened, can join together and show a common front.
This indicates an approach that can be taken to these questions. I am very pleased that this is somewhat to the discomfort of the hon. member for Macleod. In any event, in my opinion such an approach creates a better understanding of the situation and a greater appreciation of the difficulties in all persons concerned. I am sure that from this problem, from our point of view, will grow a greater appreciation of the necessity to do some planning with respect to the development of our natural resources, their utilization and investment to develop natural resources. It is in that spirit that I see a great hope in the future of doing something effective to meet this situation. This is a temporary, local situation. In the past governments have always reminded me of a forestry lookout. They see a fire and they go to try to put it out. If it rains the fire remains small. They put it out. Usually it continues to burn and does a lot of damage and goes out as a natural result of changed weather conditions; that is the attitude of most governments with respect to the economic fires in this country in the past and at this time.
I trust that this matter will continue to receive the very serious consideration of the government. I should like the minister, when he replies, to let us know what has been done in particular to meet the base metals situation, or what the government proposes. Later on, we shall look for continued favourable reports on the Britannia mine situation.


Mr. Lavigne:: I should like to continue a subject referred to by the hon. member for Laurier, that is the demarcation of the boundary line between the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. The hon. member was quite capable of bringing this subject to the attention of the house. I am sure the information will be of value to the minister and his department. I had an opportunity of placing this subject before the house in July, 1956, when I asked the then minister of mines and technical surveys a question. In reply, the minister said as reported at page 6658 of Hansard for July 30, 1956:
I had the opportunity to see the records of the department and I find that the correspondence goes as far back as February 1938, when a series of

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys questions was placed on the order paper and answered by Hon. T. A. Crerar, then minister in charge of this department. I would refer hon. members to Hansard of May 18, 1938, page 3241.
Since I became associated with this department there has been further correspondence. On December 8, 1953, I received a letter from hon. Lionel Chevrier, then minister of transport, pointing out the urgency of having this boundary survey completed. Following receipt of his letter, I wrote to the ministers responsible for boundary survey work in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. The last paragraph of my letter reads as follows:
"You may wish to renegotiate the matter with the province of Quebec (or the province of Ontario), towards the completion of the survey for the demarcation of the line. I am fully aware that this demarcation is the entire jurisdiction of the provinces, but I simply submit that the final survey would prove beneficial to all concerned."
These letters were acknowledged, but no action was taken.
The matter of interprovincial boundary surveys is the responsibility of the provinces concerned. Our department does co-operate when a request is received from both provinces, usually by appointing the surveyor general as chairman of a three-man commission with a representative from each province; who are charged with the responsibility of completing the survey. The costs of such surveys are shared equally by the two provinces concerned and this government.
I can assure my hon. friend that, as soon as requests are received from the provinces of Ontario and Quebec for the completion of this boundary survey, our department will act immediately.
That was the stand of the former government in this matter. I took up this question with the hon. member for the county of Huntingdon in Quebec and the hon. member for Glengarry in Ontario. At that time I was assured of their entire co-operation. However, to this date no steps have been taken to bring this matter to a head. I feel it is very important. As the hon. member mentioned a little while ago, we should be interested as trustees of the department of Indian affairs because of the islands in that district. We, in the county of Stormont are not immediately affected by this boundary line because it touches the county of Glengarry. Our concern arises because many of our people go there as summer residents to enjoy the beautiful view of lake St. Francis and the fishing and hunting that the district has to offer. We find it very inconvenient, because at no time do we know whether we are in the province of Quebec or Ontario. Two years ago the game wardens on both sides of the river were having a field day bringing people to court for hunting or fishing in one province or the other.
You can see, Mr. Chairman, it is quite important that this matter should be settled once and for all. I think that with the new look in this house the government might be able to influence the provincial governments to come to an understanding on this point. As was mentioned earlier, we were concerned in this matter because of the department of
IMr. Lavigne.]
Indian affairs, because of our fish and game laws and because of the development of the St. Lawrence seaway. Recently we have been concerned because of the great activity in the area around the city of Cornwall, the eastern limits of which are on the western boundary of the county of Glengarry. The city is expanding rapidly and its very active industrial commission is extending its operations into the county of Glengarry. Recently we had the opening of the Edo manufacturing plant, just east of the city of Cornwall.
What I am concerned with is the development of a harbour in that area, something which will bring about a serious problem if this question of boundary line is not settled. The city of Cornwall will spread to the east into the county of Glengarry but to the south it will touch the province of Quebec. We in the county of Stormont would be very happy if some action were taken in this matter. I hope the minister will use his influence with his party and his good offices to bring the two provincial governments to an understanding on this boundary line question.
(Translation):


Jean Lesage: Mr. Chairman, first of all may I assure the hon. Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois) that I would be the last in this house who would want to embarrass him in any way. The trepidation-or should I say the fear-which was gripping me when I found myself for the first time in the same situation in 1954, is still much too fresh in my memory.
I rise to speak at this stage in the debate because I believe I should bring up a matter which, at the present time, is extremely important as regards the rights of the provinces to crown lands. In order to explain the problem more clearly, I should like first of all, to give some background information, and to be allowed to continue my remarks in English for that purpose.
(Text):
The act respecting the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is chapter 73 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952. Section 5 thereof reads as follows:
The duties, powers and functions of the minister extend to and include all matters over which the parliament of Canada has jurisdiction relating to mines, minerals, explosives and technical surveys.
Under section 7 the minister has a degree of responsibility for the demarcation of boundary lines between the various jurisdictions in Canada.
Earlier this session I had placed on the order paper a series of questions relating to the seabed and subsoil under territorial waters in Canada. The replies to the questions I asked can be found at page 1169 of Hansard. One of the questions was with regard to the

crown rights in Hudson bay. The question reads as follows:
1.	Are the waters of Hudson bay Canadian waters?
2.	If so, are the seabed and subsoil of Hudson bay the property of the crown (a) in the right of Canada; (b) in the right of Canada, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec; (c) if the answer to (b) is in the affirmative, what part is respectively within each jurisdiction?
The answer given by the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources is as follows:
1.	Yes. The waters of Hudson bay are Canadian waters by historic title-
2.	The law officers of the crown have advised that the control and administration of the seabed and subsoil underlying Hudson bay is vested in the crown in right of Canada.
I asked a second question which was similar with regard to Hudson strait. But of course there the only province which was involved was the province of Quebec. The answer there was similar to the one I have just read. The third question was with regard to the gulf of St. Lawrence where there has been more doubt as to the question of whether the waters of the gulf of St. Lawrence are part of the Canadian territorial sea. The answer to the first question which is substantive, as to whether the waters of the gulf of St. Lawrence are Canadian waters, is as follows:
1.	On February 8, 1949, shortly before the union of Newfoundland with Canada, the then prime minister (Mr. St. Laurent) made the following statement (Hansard-page 368) :
"We intend to contend, and I hope to be able to get acquiescence in the contention that the waters west of Newfoundland constituting the gulf of St. Lawrence shall become an inland sea-
The then prime minister continued along the same line, after which the answer goes on as follows:
The government sees no reason for departing from the principle enunciated in this statement.
On the question about the gulf of St. Lawrence which I had asked in the second part of the question, whether the seabed and -subsoil were the property of the government of Canada or whether they were the property of the government of Canada, the governments of Quebec, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, the answer was as follows:
2.	According to international law the seabed and subsoil under the territorial sea is vested in the littoral state. The law officers of the crown have advised that the administration and control of the seabed and subsoil of the territorial sea is vested in the crown in right of Canada.
Of course, as to the question of whether the waters of the gulf of St. Lawrence, of Hudson bay and of Hudson strait should be considered by Canada as Canadian waters, as part of our territorial sea, I am in full accord with the answers given. But Canada
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys is a federal state and even if, according to international law, the seabed and subsoil of what is now recognized as the territorial sea -to the three-mile limit-is the property of the littoral state, the question of knowing whether this property pertains to the federal government or to the government of the province concerned is a matter to be decided in Canada itself, according to our constitutional law and constitutional practice and the jurisprudence of our tribunals. So I was much concerned when I received these answers, especially the second part of them, in particular the one about the gulf of St. Lawrence, which reads as follows:
The law officers of the crown have advised that the administration and control of the seabed and subsoil of the territorial sea is vested in the crown in right of Canada.
I was concerned for a number of reasons. I remember studying-and I hope my memory serves me rightly-the decisions of the privy council in the cases of the Montreal harbour commission and in that case which is known across Canada as the fisheries case. If my memory serves me aright, I repeat, the decision of the privy council as to the seabed even under tidal waters was pretty much to the contrary of the opinion expressed by the law officers of the crown. Moreover, it has been the custom in the gulf of St. Lawrence for the Department of Public Works of this government to seek and to obtain the transfer of what are known as waterlots whenever the Department of Public Works wishes to build wharves in the gulf of St. Lawrence.
If as is said in this opinion of the law offices of the crown the crown in the right of Canada is the owner of the seabed and subsoil, why should this government seek and obtain from the provincial government of Quebec the transfer of the seabed which they need for the building of their wharves. Moreover, if it is true, as the law officers of the crown say, that the seabed and subsoil in the territorial sea are under the control and administration of the crown in the right of Canada, how is it that the government of Nova Scotia has always had the control and administration over the coal mines off the shores of Cape Breton? These mines are under the territorial sea, of course, or within what is called the subsoil of the territorial sea.
I was therefore greatly concerned with that answer and I wondered if this government was not in the process of depriving the provinces of the ownership of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, of square miles of property in Canada. I do not affirm one way or the other but I wish to draw this

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys grave problem to the attention of one of the ministers who has some responsibility for it.
I know that in the subsoil of Hudson's bay, just off the shore of the province of my hon. friend and just west of the coast of Ungava, great mineral riches have been discovered. According to the opinion given by the law officers of the crown, the nickel and iron ore discovered there would be the property of the government of Canada.
I know the hon. minister has always professed to be a great defender of provincial rights; I know this because I listened to him during the last electoral campaign and I have heard his parliamentary assistant say the same thing. I hope they will take up this matter with the law officers of the crown and with their colleagues in the cabinet and will see to it that this opinion is not simply given "off the cuff". I also hope the hon. minister will be able to secure, overnight, an opinion from those law officers explaining and substantiating, with the constitution and with the jurisprudence, that opinion which is mentioned in the answers I have received. As I said, this is a grave problem, and I know the members of this house would not like to have a question of this kind settled merely by some opinion of law officers of the crown. They would wish that the cabinet and the parliament should deal with such a matter. I sincerely believe that the provinces should be consulted with regard to it before any final decision is taken and before any final delineation is made between the boundaries of the jurisdictions of the federal government on the one hand and of the various interested provinces on the other; that is to say those provinces interested in Hudson's bay, Hudson's strait, the gulf of St. Lawrence and the seabed and subsoil of the territorial seas just off our Atlantic and Pacific shores.
I believe I have said enough to impress the minister and the members of the cabinet with the importance of this subject and I hope when he answers he will be able to deal with this matter or, if he cannot deal with it tonight, that he will be able to study it overnight and deal with it tomorrow when we resume the study of these estimates.


Mr. Peters:: Mr. Chairman, I rise to
speak about the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and I do so having in mind some doubts and hesitations with respect thereto. These estimates were not satisfactory to many parts of Canada when the Liberals introduced them a year ago and I think, because no changes have been made, they still would not be acceptable in many respects today.

I come from a riding in the northern part of Ontario which has a very large mining area. You may know of the Kerr-Addison mine near Larder Lake, which is the largest gold mine in Canada and one of the largest on the continent. We have many other mines in Timiskaming which make up the Kirkland lake gold mining area and one of the very important gold mining fields. This area is well-known across the world. The problem with respect to gold is one of many facing the mining industry today and probably more difficult to solve than any other. We are continually faced in the gold mining industry with the need for an increase in the price of our products. That price is paid as a result of an agreement entered into between Canada and the United States of America a number of years ago. The mines have had to provide for the price of commodities purchased for their operation and we have had to keep in line with the cost of living, but we have found that the price for our product remains the same however as it was in the depression days.
With respect to this department an act was passed called the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. This act has been responsible to some extent for the maintenance and even the very existence of some of our mines. I would just like to refer to what the present Minister of Finance had to say in discussing the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act on June 12, 1956 as recorded on page 4972 of Hansard. He said:
I have emphasized, sir, that this measure is no solution of the deep-seated problem of the gold mining industry. The difficulty and the flaw in measures of this kind is that they often lull the government and lull parliament into thinking that the problem has been solved, or at least that the problem has been met for the time being. No hon. member should delude himself into thinking that this measure is any solution, even on the short-run basis, of the needs and the problems of the gold-mining industry. These problems are going to require much more far-sighted solutions than are offered by the hand-to-mouth, stop-gap type of assistance that we have in the present measure.
Therefore, I say I am surprised that this type of legislation should have been reintroduced and that these estimates should not have been corrected to take into consideration the previous thinking of the present Minister of Finance.
We should look at some of the communities which have depended on gold mining assistance. Take two examples which were originally under E.G.M.A. in 1948 when it was introduced, the Young Davidson Mine, a subsidiary of the Hollinger Gold Mine of Timmins and, secondly, the Matachewan Consolidated Mines, both of Matachewan. These mines did receive assistance. Today there is nobody in those towns. A wonderful example

is Matachewan. We had a community with a population of 4,000 or 5,000, having schools both public and separate, a fire department, hospitals, police force-completely equipped as a modern town-yet because of the limited assistance which has been paid under E.G.-M.A. these towns are now ghost towns and no people are working in the mining industry in those areas. We have not solved the problem of those communities or even tried to solve it.
Why, I should like to ask, are we interested in gold? I think that gold itself, as a commodity, has absolutely no value except as a means of adornment. If we want to make jewelry out of it, well and good. But the countries of the world when they signed the Bretton Woods agreement and set up the international bank set it up on the basis of a gold standard. We in turn in 1946 agreed to stabilize our gold price at $35 in relation to 13.71 grains of fine gold U.S., so that if we do not want to carry gold about in our pockets we have, to some extent, to support this legislation dealing with our financial affairs.
Personally, I am not too much interested in the gold. What I am interested in is what gold has done for this country. In 1909, or thereabouts, when gold was found in northern Ontario it had the same effect that the discovery of gold had in California; it spearheaded the development of that part of the country. Those young towns were built around the gold mining industry, and if that industry did nothing else it opened up the north of this province and created the communities we now find there. It was responsible, too, for the industries which are dependent on gold mining.
The problem of gold prices was faced when we agreed that if the price of gold was not to change, then emergency gold mining assistance should be paid. I think this assistance must be given, and that it must be increased, not decreased as it has been over the past few years under the former Liberal government. I think it has to be increased to take care of the needs of the communities in which gold is mined. The federal government has shown consideration to the gold mining industry in a number of ways. First, it pays a subsidy if mines cannot produce economically; secondly, it has allowed the gold mining industry three years in which to bring a new producing mine into production, without charging any income tax; and, thirdly, it has allowed gold mines to speed up the amortization of their depreciation. I think it is now time that we should take a further look at the E.G.M.A. whose provisions, as the Minister of Finance has said, were to be only a temporary stop gap.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I should like to suggest that this assistance be increased, but that it be increased with reservations. First, I should like to see E.G.M.A. assistance paid only to mines that need it. I know of some cases where this is not done, because I worked underground in a gold mine for 15 years and I know something about the situation. I am sure the Canadian people have heard of high-grading of gold. Somebody gets away with a few dollars of high-grade and it makes a good story in the newspapers. But many of these mines are being "low-graded". There are high grades in stopes which are shut off, and as a result the Canadian people are financing the production of low grade ore at a time when there is this other ore which would bring profits.
There are, of course, companies which need this assistance in order to be able to carry on at all. I strongly suggest that if this government is interested in increasing employment it should consider spending a few more dollars under the E.G.M.A. for the sake of reemploying a large number of people who have been thrown out of work by the closing down of marginal mines. But if we are going to pay under this E.G.M.A., then I think the Canadian people should insist that the money should go, first of all, to the people who work in the industry, because they are all underpaid at the present time in relation to other hard rock miners. Some, at least, of this assistance should be earmarked for the people who produce the gold.
Machines have been introduced and automation has been brought into the mines as well as elsewhere, and production has risen beyond the expectations that one might have expected from increased wages, but still, this increase which I suggest under the E.G.M.A. should also be paid in such a way that a percentage of it at least should go directly into the communities which are totally dependent on this emergency assistance. Surely if there is anything left over by way of profit, a reasonable amount should be retained locally, but some of these mines are taking the amount that is paid them under the E.G.M.A. and paying an equivalent amount to the shareholders, with the effect that the Canadian people are paying dividends to the shareholders.
According to the estimates, there are inspectors, federal inspectors. In my 15 years underground I never met a federal government inspector. They may exist, but I never met one. If there are any, I suggest they should take a look at this situation in relation to the amount of ore that is held in reserve, the veins that ore is in, and the

13S4
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys assay value of that ore, so that we may ensure a much more honest practice than we have at the present time.
We have a large number of other mines which are closed because they cannot operate at a profit. Many of these are in the Kirkland lake area, and in each case the miners who lost their employment were not absorbed in other enterprises in the communities and had to leave those communities which, in turn, were dependent upon them. If we are going to continue the E.G.M.A.-and I say it has to be continued because we have no alternative at the present time-then we should insist on the requirements I have mentioned, namely that the needs of the miners and the needs of the communities should be met before any money is "divvied" out to anybody else. We have miners working in those mines who have no future. They have no pensions put away for their future. I suggest that some of this money could be used for government assistance to set up a national pension plan for mining and allied industries.
The Canadian people have had a great deal of benefit from miners, probably more from them than they have received from any other class of people in Canada. We And-and I think this can be borne out and has been borne out thousands of times in the past-that we have been able to develop the uranium fields which are so important to the Canadian people today because we have had miners who worked in the hard-rock mining industry for a number of years. It is possible to take one skilled miner and put four unskilled miners with him, but it is impossible to take all unskilled miners and expect to get a mine in operation. The fact that these miners have been able to move from the gold-mining fields into the copper fields of Gaspe, into Belle-Isle in Newfoundland, into the uranium fields in Elliott lake, the new property in Moak lake and the iron industry in the new Helen mining area is proof that hard-rock gold miners who spent their lifetime in the gold-mining industry are easily adaptable.
The industry is very important to the Canadian people because of its flexibility. One of the reasons why it is flexible is that we have the type of people who are willing to make the sacrifice to move from one job where they have security into a pioneering field. If we are to recognize this fact, then we should implement, with some assistance from the federal government at least in the administration of a pension plan. We should institute industrial portable pensions which will cover miners so that they can move from mine to mine and field to field, and

still at the end of 20 years be able to retire on some kind of pension.
I am told that not too many miners last more than 20 years in the mines. We have a high mortality rate. Silicosis, heart trouble and all types of pulmonary diseases are prevalent, and some assistance should be given in that respect. I strongly urge that the new government take into consideration this matter of portable pensions for this industry. I should also like to say that of the hundreds of mines that are opened up every year very few exist long enough for industrial pensions under any other scheme.
In Timiskaming we have a number of other problems in the mining field. I think the gold-mining industry is of prime importance to the country. Because of the statements the Minister of Finance has made in the house over the years he must go out and effectively and very vocally ask for an increase in the price of gold from our United States buyers. On a number of occasions in recent years we have seen South Africa, Australia, yes and even France, ask for an increase in the price of gold and Canada has stayed quietly back and let somebody else do it. I think it is time, particularly in the light of what the minister has said over the years, that he take the lead in trying to increase the price of gold because that is the only solution on a long-term basis of this problem.
In my riding we have a number of people going into the uranium fields of Blind River. I would like to suggest to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys that some consideration be given to those people because I can see exactly the same problem developing in the uranium fields of Elliott Lake as developed elsewhere. Frankly, I am surprised that we have not heard the representative from that area say something about it. We are hearing today, and we have heard it in recent years, that there are short-term contracts in the Elliott Lake area. We are asking the miners to leave northern Ontario to go into those areas and we are finding that they are being asked to build houses. The National Housing Act will cover them for a period of five years, which is the length of the uranium contracts. From then on there is a kind of half-baked deal between the mining companies and the employees to continue payments for 20 years. I am suggesting that some consideration be given to those people, because I think they are being taken in on the same kind of deal that my friends in the Matachewan area were taken in on, where, after they worked in the industry for 10 years or 15 years, spent their lives there, put all their money into housing and

into the community, found that there was no more occupation for them in that industry.
I would suggest that some of the money given as emergency gold mining assistance be taken and put into secondary industries. Secondary industries could be put into northern Ontario if they do not have to pay any federal taxes for three years, if they could write off their complete depreciation in 10 years and still get a handout besides to help them get their original start. We are going to have secondary industries in northern Ontario and then Kirkland Lake will be a booming community instead of just holding its own. I think we have that obligation, not only to Kirkland Lake, Larder Lake, Matach-ewan and Cobalt, but to all the other towns that are dependent on mining because, no mattef'ywhat we do about mining, there will come a day when there will be no more minerals of any quantity, or no worthwhile value, in that rock. Secondary industries must be developed to carry on the continuity of those communities which are hard to build up.
Let me mention Cobalt. I think it is a wonderful example because Cobalt certainly was a great old town. Everybody has seen the sign, or heard of it-if they have not they should go up and see the sign which reads, "Where all the silver comes from". We have seen a boom and bust in the silver market over the years. I have seen Cobalt when you could buy a shack for $10,000 and the next month you could buy the best house in town for $500. We have seen the ups and downs of Cobalt. Nothing has ever been done to stabilize the market for those products.
We have heard some discussion on zinc and copper and I think silver comes in that category; certainly this new metal cobalt comes in that category. I was very surprised to find that last spring the cobalt market had disappeared. There had been a long-term proposition but cobalt could be obtained much cheaper from the Belgian Congo. Is it the desire of the people of Canada to go to the Belgian Congo to buy our cobalt when we have a vast quantity of it already in Ontario and in Canada? I do not think so. Cobalt is necessary as a strategic war material. It is a metal that keeps; it can be stockpiled effectively. It does not deteriorate. We could pile it up in a yard some place and still maintain the cobalt; but we would not be able to get cobalt tomorrow if there was a need for it because there is no development of the cobalt veins in the Cobalt area. The cobalt is there.
But because the mining companys knew it was only a short-term contract, that it was going to run out in a certain period, they said, "Why in thunder should we block out a new supply of cobalt? Development work costs
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys money." Why should they block it out? Because this is free enterprise, and I do not disagree that maybe this is the way they should run it, then we are in this position. We have need for the strategic war metal, cobalt, tomorrow-and the committee should know that cobalt is used in the manufacture of new types of metal. It is used in magnetos; it is used in all steel that is going to be used in very high temperatures and I presume that even in the missile program, which we may or may not be developing, this type of metal is very necessary. If we are going to spend the amounts of money that we as Canadians believe should be spent in this direction then it would be a lot cheaper to do it here than waiting until the need is much greater. If we believe that then we have to do the development work needed because it takes time.
In the meantime this community is existing on a boom and bust economy and I do not think that is the desire of the Canadian people. It certainly is not producing any wealth for the farming community because when people are living on relief you would be surprised how little good beef they buy and how little butter they buy. The farming communities close by are not doing any selling. In my opinion there should be further assistance for these mining communities in the estimates.
Near Kirkland Lake we have a very large iron deposit. It has been drilled and its potentiality has been ascertained. The necessary magnetometer surveys have been made. The amount of ore is very extensive, but what do we find has happened? The same thing has happened as in the case of a great many of our natural resources. Control of the property has fallen into the hands of United States interests. At the present time they have no need to develop the property. I think the Canadian people need that industry developed. I am sure that the people of Kirkland Lake and Dane need that industry developed, and I suggest that something should be done to assist in its initial development. In my opinion the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has done very little in this regard.
We also have a field of coal in that immediate area which would be a great asset in furthering the development of secondary industries another phase of industry which would help to build up the communities in these areas. There is a large lignite deposit but some money is needed for its development and the establishment of a pilot plant so that we may know exactly how we can get the heat and energy from the coal. This is also something that should be developed under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
1396	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
There should be more money in the estimates for research. I should like to ask the minister two questions. Will he amend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, the administration of which comes under his department, to make provision that when a mine receives assistance a percentage of that assistance will automatically go into the salaries and wages of the employees in the industry and into a pension plan for their retirement? Second, will emergency gold mining assistance be paid on a larger scale to mines that are now considered marginal so that they may operate? I think this is one of the ways in which the government can increase employment in all parts of Canada.


Mr. Smith (Calgary South):: Mr. Chairman, I propose, as always, to be extremely brief. I should like to say a word in general about the estimates of the department and perhaps comment, and nothing more, on the predicament of what is Canada's largest mineral industry, the petroleum industry. As to the estimates I should like first of all to do something that is perhaps unusual with respect to a government department. As one who comes from the practical side of the industry I should like to congratulate the service or field personnel, particularly those men of the department of geology and geophysics who have for some time now assisted the development of the resources of our country, at times under rather difficult conditions. When I look at the department, Mr. Chairman, the only point which concerns me is whether or not we have taken into consideration the expansion of the development of resources in Canada. I notice that there is actually a drop in the number of geologists. I also notice that the amount of money we are making available to universities for exploration and research has not altered at all.
I think we should remember that what has made our country economically sound has been the exploitation and development of both natural and human resources. I believe we will agree that when we consider these estimates we are dealing with one of the most important departments of government, one which has been treated to some extent in the past as a poor relation of government.
I am going to make two suggestions to the minister. The first has to do with personnel. I do not know how he can expect to retain his staff of technicians having regard to the salaries that these men are receiving from the department. We are going to have to meet the competition of companies involved in the development of our resources. I happen to know something of the replacement of staff in this department. I happen to know also that it is not the


intention of the government to try to compete with industry because it is expected that industry will naturally be a higher bidder. But when we expect these men to carry out this important task for us, we must recognize that they are going to have to have salaries comparable certainly to the amount of work they are doing for the department.
The other point to which I should like to make reference is one which the minister undoubtedly will have to discuss with the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources, one which has not hitherto been a problem. I refer to the natural resources underlying the national parks of Canada. It is a fact, of course, that there is no resource development of any national park in that sense. Naturally it is not expected that we should immediately open gold mines or oil wells in national parks, but I think we are going to have to recognize that certain areas of our parks represent vast natural wealth under the surface.
It is in this department that the leases or rights are held and therefore there must be some consideration of a future policy between the two departments with respect to whether or not these areas are going to be developed or on what basis they are going to be dealt with. Unquestionably the government is today losing money by way of royalties which they could well use.
I am going to close by referring to something that it was my privilege to deal with in the address in reply to the speech from the throne. I mentioned at that time the problem facing the oil industry, particularly in Alberta but also in western Canada generally. I do not like repetition and I do not intend to bore hon. members with the details. The fact of the matter is that every columnist from one end of Canada to the other has commented on the matter and I could do no more than repeat what they have said. Suffice it to say that the problem we have encountered in western Canada with respect to oil development is fast reaching a crisis in that a depressed industry is in a situation which is going to require assistance, not in the form of subsidies but in the form of intelligent planning with the aid of the federal and provincial governments. I have already expressed my views on how this can best be done and I will not repeat them here.
Perhaps some hon. members may look upon this industry, as is so often the case, as an industry involving only wealthy men and wealthy provinces. Let me reassure you that, while perhaps it is difficult to plead a case for Alberta which gives $20 to a number of its residents from oil dividends, there are still in Alberta a great many young

men and women who today are without work because of the depressed state of that industry. Better than half of the drilling crews are today unemployed. Better than half of the exploration crews are today without work. Consequently, those auxiliary servicing crews that keep them in the field are also suffering.
I cannot help but feel a little frustrated, not with my own party but with the whole area of this eastern section of Canada which, when you complain bitterly about the depressed state of the oil industry, they say to you, you will now be short a few millionaires and they are going to have to get by with last year's Cadillacs. I remind you that a great many of our people, a substantial part of our population, are dependent on this industry. They realize that some action must be taken soon. I am going to sit down after saying this. This industry, which is so vitally affected by the department of mines and of course the geological surveys, has been given a great deal of assistance in many fields by the department, such as the development to some extent of the tar sands which represent the largest known oil reserves in the world. It has given us assistance in setting up what is now known as the mines ministers conference, an organization designed to bring uniformity into the laws on gas and oil in Canada. It has given us assistance through technicians and help in developing better methods for exploring for oil and gas. I am going to suggest, therefore, that a proper lead from government in aiding the oil and gas industry today and in relieving some of the problems that they have, rest with the minister of mines. I hope he will give this his consideration.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: In speaking about the unemployment situation on Tuesday afternoon, Mr. Chairman, I made reference to the critical situation that is developing in the lead and zinc industry. The hon. member for Kootenay West and the hon. member for Villeneuve made extensive references to that problem this afternoon. While prices are greatly depressed at this time, we are facing a much more serious situation in the threat of higher tariffs being imposed by the United States. The mine, mill and smelter workers brief, to which reference was made this afternoon by the hon. member for Kootenay West, points out just what may take place if these proposed tariffs are imposed. The union maintains a rather intensive research department in their head office in Toronto, and they have gone to some lengths to show just what the situation is with respect to these base metals.
There is a minimum of fabrication within Canada, so the major part of the Canadian
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys production of lead, zinc and copper is exported. The brief goes on to say that about 80 per cent of the lead, 60 per cent of the copper and over 90 per cent of the zinc is exported. I should think about 50 per cent of the economy of both the east and west Kootenays depends on these base metals, especially lead and zinc. If this proposed tariff were imposed, one can see what would happen. While our market would not be wiped out entirely, it would undoubtedly mean large lay-offs and the curtailment of the industry generally. About two-thirds of our zinc production and over 40 per cent of our lead production is exported to the United States. The proportion of our copper and zinc production going to the United States has been rising quite rapidly. I know that the minister of mines cannot be responsible for any action that may be taken by United States authorities, but I hope he will impress upon the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister the urgency of this matter so that they will make even stronger representations to the United States than they appear to be doing at this time.
There is another matter that seems to be affecting the mining industry of British Columbia. While it seems to be a purely provincial matter, I believe the federal government does enter into the picture. Some time ago I asked the Minister of Justice to look into bill No. 87, introduced by the provincial government. This bill provides for a tax on minerals of 25 to 50 cents on every ton of ore that is being mined for export. This provision seems to me to be a violation of section 2 of the British North America Act under which the federal government is responsible for the trade of our nation. The bill was introduced for the specific purpose of preventing, in so far as this restriction is able, the export of iron ore from British Columbia. The mining industry itself fears the extension of this legislation to cover other metals. Undoubtedly this fact has had something to do with the depression in the mining industry in British Columbia. The bill has been on the statute books since the last session of the legislature, but was only invoked some few weeks ago.
I know that the Minister of Justice has been very busy, but I am sure he is looking into this matter. I hope the minister of mines also will take the matter into consideration. Undoubtedly the measure was introduced into the provincial legislature in good faith, but the representatives of the mining industry view it with great apprehension. The hon. member for Calgary South has shown his dissatisfaction with what is taking place in the oil and gas industries. I think

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys if he were to look about him he would find amongst his own colleagues people who have done more to contribute to the depressed state of the gas and oil industries in Alberta than any other group in this house or in all of Canada.
Surely the need for gas sales and gas export would be one thing that would depress the development of the oil and gas industry in that province. I understand that the premier of the province came to Ottawa only recently to make his representations to the Prime Minister in order to see if he would not do something to assure that gas may be exported and marketed in the United States under commitments given by the previous government. I hope that we are not going to find, after the next 15 years or 20 years, that we are left with enough gas in the ground to provide fuel for the next thousand years, as is the condition of the coal industry in Alberta and British Columbia. Had we taken, when coal was first being exported the attitude that seems to be taken over natural gas, those who opposed the export would have looked very silly indeed today. Atomic energy and fuel may soon displace even gas and oil.
But I am sure that the province of Alberta itself has made a thorough study of its reserves. The gas conservation board has been in operation for many years. If they have satisfied themselves

and they are responsible to the people of the province-that they have an unlimited supply ready for sale, we should not attempt to prevent the action they wish to take. I might say again to the hon. member that I think he knows probably as well as does anyone that it has been the attitude of his party that has very seriously affected the gas and oil industry in Alberta.


Mr. Thompson (Edmonion-Siralhcona):: Mr. Chairman, in view of the remarks of the hon. member who has just spoken and of the hon. member for Calgary South, I should just like to make a few remarks with regard to the gas and oil situation in the province of Alberta. The minister evidently intends to spend over $26 million in his department this year, of which over $10 million will be for salaries and $1J million for additional technical advice. It would seem that this would give the department a wealth of technical advice with regard to mines in Canada.
During the now famous pipe line debate and the election the present members of the government felt that the trans-Canada pipe line was an extremely important issue as well as the export of gas. Why is it then that the facilities of the minister's department have not been used by the government? Why is it that the export of gas must depend upon


a royal commission which may report some years hence?


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, in rising to speak at this time I unfortunately have not the experience of the hon. member for Villeneuve who has had many years of experience in this house and who possibly has had time, as I have not, since this house opened to do some research and study on the mining picture as a whole across this country. I have found that the first month of a new member's time in this house is taken up mostly in finding where to look for what he is looking for. However, tonight I should like to deal with one specific aspect of the mining situation in Canada, one with which I am very familiar. I refer to the situation of the gold mining area in northern Ontario, with particular reference to the communities which are dependent on those gold mines, as was outlined so well by the hon. member for Timiskaming.
I should like to go back a few years to the time when I first arrived in the gold mining area of Timmins. It is necessary to go back to 1934. Possibly there are in this house hon. members whose memory does not go back that far. In fact, I think there may be one or two hon. members in this house who were born just about that time. That was in the middle of the days that have often been referred to as the "dirty thirties". I would not go so far as some hon. members have gone and refer to them as the former days or in fact the last days of the Conservative government. However, those were the days of the depression. Those were the days when men were travelling across this country from coast to coast. They were slandered. They were thrown in jail. They were called hoboes and everything else when, in fact, all they were-the biggest part of them-were merely people looking for a job and not knowing where to find it.
I recall arriving in Timmins in the summer of 1934. I will admit I was quite young at the time. However, during times of depression if you are big enough, you are old enough; and that is the situation in which I found myself. I recall that at that time before you could get a steady job in Timmins you had to overcome competition because there were in the neighbourhood of 5,000 and 10,000 men in the same position that I was in, who had come to Timmins from coast to coast because they heard that times were good in Timmins. I recall that when you could get a job as a spare-time worker they paid you 30 cents an hour up to 10 hours a day and if you worked more than 10 hours a day you were hired by the day

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
and you were paid $3 a day. That is possibly fantastic in the opinion of people in this era; they possibly find it hard to believe, being used to the trade union movement as we have developed it in this country today. However. I can assure you that my memory is very good. I could name the place where I worked and so forth and so on, but I do not think we need to waste the time of this house by going into the details.
I can also recall when I first started working underground in the Buffalo-Ankerite mines which are closed down at the present time. They are one of the victims referred to by my colleague the hon. member for Timiskaming. It was a low-grade property with a huge ore base but the mine could not meet the problems of the gold mining industry, even with the present gold mining subsidy. The management had changed just before I started to work at this property. We had a new mine captain who used to make it his brag that every day when he went underground he fired the first man he saw regardless of who he was or what he was doing just in order to smarten up the rest of them. I would ask hon. members just to think for one moment of the position of the man who happened to be first seen that day. If he had a family of ten children it never entered the picture at all. He just happened to be the unfortunate man who was to be used as an example for the rest. Actually it was a very silly thing to do because all the men used to hide behind pillars, in the shafts or any place else available so that they would not be the first man seen.
I recall when I first joined the trade union. In those days you had to go into town, circle down through a back alley, go in through a tiny little door, pay your dues, take your union button home and hide it under the shirts in the drawer of your dresser. You dare not even mention the word "union" on the job because if you did so one of the 200 men at the gate would take your job the next day. Times have changed considerably since then but unfortunately, while times change evidently problems stay right with us. Possibly the problems we had in those days are forgotten today but we have a new set of problems facing us today.
These problems were very well outlined by previous speakers; not only the problems of the gold mining industry but also the problems of the communities which those industries support. In my opinion these are knotty problems; they are not problems which can be solved overnight or at one meeting. Wages, as has been mentioned, are extremely low in the gold mines and as a result of
these low wages you will find other aspects of the community which are depressed. For example you will find rents in mining towns are very low for the simple reason that there are not as many miners there today as there were at one time. Consequently there is a surplus of houses in such places in these days of housing shortage. There are certain other aspects however which are not affected by low wages; food costs just as much up there as it does anywhere else and in northern Ontario there is an additional problem where we have higher costs for fuel as well as two extra months of winter in each year when fuel has to be used.
At the present time in the gold mining industry in Timmins negotiations are under way with all the local mines for a new collective bargaining agreement and the No. 1 item in those negotiations is the question of a pension plan. As the years have gone by we have seen, owing to the efforts of trade unions, pension plans have been established in various industries all across the country. Unfortunately, however, it seems to depend pretty well on the strength of the union as to how much is accomplished in this respect.
I can think of no industry in Canada from coast to coast which needs a pension plan more than the mining industry. There is no mercy in hard rock; if you are working underground and you have an accident you must remember that you are dealing with hard rock. That is why we see such a high incidence of lost-time accidents in gold mines; that is why gold miners have to pay an additional premium for their life and accident insurance policies. The insurance companies from their records recognize the fact that the gold mining industry is a very hazardous one. Added to that is the deadly, creeping threat of silicosis. Possibly it is not necessary to explain to this house that silicosis is not a disease, as many people think; it is merely a condition into which the lungs of miners degenerate after long service in the mines. It is just a series of scar tissues formed on the lungs from this silica dust which eventually prevents the lungs from expanding as they normally should. This brings about a general deterioration of the system until such time as the mirier succumbs. I think I noted at one time the average age of a gold miner's life is 54 years as against the national average of about 67 years.
This condition brings about a situation where the miner is no longer able to carry on his duties and, as so well outlined by the hon. member for Timiskaming, we have no secondary industries in the gold mining communities which might absorb these older members at such times. That is why it is
1400	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys so important that pensions should be established for this industry. This has a very pertinent bearing on the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act which is considered with respect to the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
There is another aspect with which I would like to deal and that is the situation in respect to collective bargaining between the gold miners and the gold mine operators. I think this possibly ties in with the old picture of why this gold mining problem and this Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act has been such a problem. If these mines were small local properties then the problem would not be so difficult; they would either be paying propositions or they would not and they could be judged and dealt with accordingly. But we find the situation is far different from that. We find most of these mines are subsidiaries of vast, national, international, and in some cases intercontinental corporations.
Last summer I was able to obtain the financial report of one of our local mines which showed a profit on the local property of about $98,000. In addition it received a gold mining subsidy under the act of $385,000. However, they had charged the costs of development work done at oil properties against the local property and showed an overall loss of $28,000. That is just one aspect of the problems which are all mixed up in this Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.
We also have to consider the fact that some mining operators today are the only people in Canada who absolutely refuse to co-operate with the trade union movement in any way, shape or form.
In my remarks some weeks ago during the debate on the speech from the throne I made reference to the situation in Murdochville, Quebec during this last summer. I do not think I need to go into the details here because I am quite sure hon. members are familiar with that situation. I mentioned also at that time that the same people who operate Murdochville either own or have controlling interest in five of the 11 mines in the Timmins area today. It follows therefore that the same mental attitude toward the trade union movement and collective bargaining which was displayed this summer in Murdochville will in all probability be carried into the gold mining communities in the Porcupine camp.
I would like to submit that this situation cannot be solved, in fact it cannot be even understood through a meeting with either one side or the other. If you meet with management you get management's side of the picture; if you meet with the unions you get


the other side of the picture. I would like to suggest therefore that the only way to get a proper picture of the gold mining situation in Canada today, with all its problems, is for this house to take the lead by setting up a committee consisting of federal, provincial, and municipal authorities, plus representatives of management and union. That committee could go into all aspects of the gold mining industry and bring out a report, giving this house the true picture so that we will know how to take the necessary sensible and responsible steps with regard to E.G.M.A.
There is one other matter I would like to mention. In 1941 there were 28 gold mines operating in the Timmins area; today there are 11. In addition the Hollinger Consolidated Gold Mines in 1941 employed about
3,000	men while today they get a similar tonnage with about 1,100 men.
This might seem at the moment just a problem relating to the town of Timmins, or to the gold mining municipalities dependent on the gold mines, but I should like to bring to the attention of hon. members that some 126 communities in the province of Ontario are instrumental in supplying the needs of these gold miners. In one community they make the safety rubber boots that the miners wear; in another place they make the tracks on which they run the cars, and in another they make the machines. There are 1001 other things which are supplied to the miners which are not made in the gold mining communities, but in Toronto, Hamilton, Windsor, Kingston and London. So, if the gold mines go, not only are those communities directly affected but the repercussions are going to be felt right across the country. That is one thing which makes this a problem not only for the gold mines and the gold mining communities but also for hon. members of this house from one end of the country to the other, and certainly it is a problem for the government about which, Mr. Chairman, I submit it should use every effort to do something.


Mr. Johnston (Bow River):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a word or two about the gas and oil industries in the province of Alberta. One of the conditions which I think is contributing very largely in our part of the country to an ever-rising unemployment problem is the lack of employment in these industries and in the coal industry. These industries are three of the largest in the west, and they are three which are most affected as far as the gas industry is concerned. I want to agree with the hon. member for Kootenay East who said a while ago that this government must accept a large share of the responsibility for the depressed condition of

the gas industry in the province of Alberta. Those of us who were here last year will quite well recall the outstanding effort-and I emphasize the word "outstanding"-which was made by the Conservative party in an attempt to defeat the proposal to construct a trans-Canada gas pipe line. If they had had their way the gas industry of the province of Alberta and, eventually of Saskatchewan too, would have received a very severe set-back.
Not only did this present government do its utmost to prevent the construction of the trans-Canada gas pipe line, but they have since done considerable damage to the possibility of having gas exported to the United States. Some time ago the leader of this party, the hon. member for Peace River, asked the Prime Minister a question concerning the possibility of exporting gas to the United States, bearing in mind a commitment which was given by the former minister of trade and commerce last year, and the Prime Minister stated, in effect, that he would not accept as his responsibility any commitment made by the previous government. That has certainly gone a long way toward supplying material for those in the United States who are endeavouring to prevent the export of Alberta gas into the United States. It is certainly not helping to build our export business, and it is certainly not helping to bring United States dollars into Canada to offset our tremendous adverse balance of trade. As I say, the present government must accept a large share of responsibility for this.


An hon. Member:: Nonsense.


Charles Edward Johnston: If the hon.
member will look up the records he will find out that what I am saying is absolutely true, and the people of Canada are becoming very conscious of that. It would pay new hon. members of this house, particularly, to go back and read over the records of some of the debates which took place last year.


An hon. Member:: We read it in the newspapers.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Charles Edward Johnston: They might read back and see where the responsibility lies. No, you did not read it all in the newspapers. You read a very biased report, and if you were to read some of the reports in the newspapers now-I think it was the Financial Post-you would find out that they, too, have begun to change their ideas regarding what was published on the pipe line.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the hon. member suggest we should have that debate all over again?


An hon. Member:: God forbid.


Charles Edward Johnston: That would be all right with me. Let me point out that it was the C.C.F. party who joined hands and went to bed with the Conservatives in an effort to stop-


Stanley Howard Knowles: We wanted the pipe line built under public ownership.


Charles Edward Johnston: -this enterprise and who must share responsibility to a large degree for the ever-increasing unemployment we have today.


An hon. Member:: Time to go to bed.


Charles Edward Johnston: May I call it ten o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lionel Chevrier: Would the leader of the house kindly tell us the business for tomorrow?


Howard Charles Green: Tomorrow we shall continue with these estimates, .and then with the estimates of the departments of veterans affairs, fisheries and justice.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. McWilliam: 1.	Did the government receive any representations for a change in Miramichi smelt fishing season's dates?
2.	If so, from whom were the representations received and what were the suggested changes?
Answer by: Hon. J. A. MacLean (Minisier of Fisheries):
1.	No requests have been received for changes in the present season.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


PORK IMPORTS FROM U.S.
Mr. Smith (Battle River-Camrose): 1.	How many pounds of bacon, ham, shoulders and other pork cured, other than canned, were imported into Canada from the United States of America for each of the months of August, September and October, 1957?
2.	How many pounds of canned pork were imported into Canada from the United States of America for each of the above-mentioned months?
Answer by: Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister of Trade and Commerce):
1.	377,241 pounds during month of August, 1957. Imports for months of September and October 1957 not yet available.
2.	Statistics not yet available.


TRADE AGREEMENTS AND CONTRACTS FOR WHEAT
Mr. Hansell: 1, What trade agreements presently exist between the United Kingdom and Canada for the purchase of Canadian wheat and when was each agreement signed?
2. How many contracts or purchases for wheat have been made by:	(a) United Kingdom government; (b) other British purchasers, for each month of 1957?
Answer by: Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minister
of Trade and Commerce):
1.	None.
2.	(a) None.
(b) Purchases of wheat and wheat flour by the United Kingdom are handled by the private trade. Individual sales contracts or purchasing agreements are negotiated by the private trade in the United Kingdom with Canadian exporters. Details of these agreements are, therefore, not known.
Export shipments of wheat and flour to the United Kingdom for each month during 1957 are as follows:
Month	Wheat (bushels)	Flour (bushels equivalent)January	6,107,641	981,253February	5,452,047	890,466March	5,674,129	898,888April	3,403,124	882,722May	5,595,127	946,712June	5,643,904	647,933July	7,644,723	926,456August	11,485,194	958,288September	7,957,654	1,028,491


EXPORTS TO COMMUNIST CHINA
Mr. Hansell: 1.	What goods, if any, have been consigned to communist China in the last year?
2.	What are the classifications of these goods?
3.	How much iri each classification?
Answer by: Hon. Gordon Churchill (Minisier of Trade and Commerce):
1, 2 and 3. Exports to China, calendar year 1956:
Statistical
Account	. Classification reading	Unit. Qty. Value
Canadian produce:
5810 Automobiles, passenger, new, valued at over $1,000 No. 1	$	1,4758160	Ammonium sulphate	
352,3968180	Phosphate fertilizer	
2,072,7499530	Settlers' effects	
160
Total

Foreign produce:
4960	Books, bound or unbound	
224990	Printed and lithographed matter, n.o.p	
10Total	$	32[The following items were passed in committee 86. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, of supply]:	including a grant of $3,000 to the public personneldepartment of the secretary of state	association to assist in defraying the costs of itsOffice of the Chief Electoral Officer-	international convention to be held in Canada in60. Salaries and expenses of office, $73,115.	1957, $2,961,606.
Dominion-Provincial Conference


APPENDIX
[Stage Direction]
Province of Manitoba Office of the Premier Winnipeg
November 12, 1957.
The Right Hon. John G. Diefenbaker,

[Stage Direction]
Prime Minister of Canada,
Ottawa, Ontario.
Dear Mr. Diefenbaker:
I am glad to learn from your letter of October 31, 1957, that all provinces have accepted November 25 and 26 as the dates for the proposed federal-provincial conference and that the conference has accordingly been called for that time.
We in Manitoba are in entire agreement with your government in believing that the conference should centre on dominion-provincial fiscal relations and that though other current issues having a bearing on the main question can be discussed, the detailed consideration of these subjects should be undertaken by groups which are directly interested in them and which can devote more time to their study than the plenary conference would likely give. One of the most important of these is hospital insurance and I would therefore like to urge again, as I did in my recent letter on the subject, that arrangements be made for a full discussion of hospital insurance, either just before or just after the federal-provincial financial conference.
My colleagues and I are somewhat concerned about the wording of your letter of October 31, 1957, particularly in view of your earlier one of September 16, 1957. It seemed clear to us in the letter of September 16 that the meeting proposed for November 25 and .26 was indeed to be a detailed conference on fiscal relations and in view of the general tenor of that letter and the matters to which it refers we expected that the provinces were being invited to a conference which would deal exhaustively with the urgent and ever-pressing problem of provincial and municipal financial requirements. One small section of your letter of October 31, however, seems to indicate that you have changed your mind about the scope of this conference. There seems to be an implication in your letter that the November conference is really to be a preliminary one.
Were this interpretation of ours, which we can hardly credit, correct, we would indeed feel that a serious change had been made in the plans for this meeting. In
giving consideration to your letter and invitation of September 16 we were impressed, as we believe many people throughout the nation are, with the urgency of the provincial and municipal financial problems as they relate to the fiscal arrangements between the various forms of government in Canada. It was in the light of these considerations that we made our plans to attend the meeting in Ottawa at that time, even though the dates were not the ones which we would have chosen. For this reason we find it difficult to think that we have been asked to make our decisions against one background only to find that the type of conference is now to be changed from a decisive one to one which, under a fairly easy interpretation of your letter of October 31, might well be of a preliminary nature only.
We are most anxious to have your reassurance that the conference to be held in Ottawa on November 25 and 26 is to be one at which significant agreements can be reached as to the adequacy or otherwise of the present fiscal relations as between the provinces and the federal government. It is, of course, recognized by all of us that the conference itself cannot decide those matters which are the prerogative of parliament and the legislatures, but we have found on previous occasions that both the federal government and the provincial governments have been able to arrive at conclusive agreements or arrangements which later on were found to be acceptable to our respective legislative bodies.
To sum up, we in Manitoba have now made our arrangements to come to the meeting in Ottawa on your suggested dates; we find ourselves in complete agreement with you that certain matters coming before the conference may well require a more specialized study than can be given to them by the conference as a whole, but we hope that your letter of October 31 does not in any way represent an intention of changing this coming conference from the decisive one which we expected from your letter of September 16, to one which has the value of only a "preliminary" meeting.
In any event Manitoba's representatives will be present, and we will expect the opportunity to place our case fully on record. We will be prepared to stay as long as is necessary in order to have full consideration given to these vitally important subjects.
Yours sincerely,
Douglas Campbell.
[Stage Direction]
Dominion-Provincial Conference
Ottawa, November 17, 1957. My dear Premier:
I have your letter of the 12th and note with pleasure that you are in agreement with the federal government that the November dominion-provincial conference should center on dominion-provincial fiscal relations and that an opportunity should be afforded to discuss current issues which have a bearing on our fiscal relations. I have in mind such issues as those which bear so important a relation both to the federal budget and to provincial budgets that we cannot reach a significant agreement on changes in dominion-provincial fiscal arrangements until these issues have been carefully examined.
It is not expected that within two days it will be possible to consider fully the variety of problems and suggestions that will be put forward. The arrangements which
we have proposed are intended to make it feasible to deal seriously with the major problems. Some time will be required to consider what proposals should be made in the light of the views brought forward at the November meeting. We think it better to consider specific proposals at a subsequent meeting after we have all had an opportunity to study what is said at the first one and proposals arising from it. This need not, however, prevent our reaching agreement on any issues on which discussions next week reveal that general agreement has been achieved.
Yours sincerely,
John G. Diefenbaker.
The Honourable D. L. Campbell, M.L.A., Premier of Manitoba,
Legislative Building,
Winnipeg, Manitoba.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, November 22, 1957