1957-03-01

ADDRESS TO BOTH HOUSES OP PARLIAMENT BY PREMIER MOLLET OP FRANCE

Right Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I would be permitted to take just a moment to remind hon. members that Mr. Guy Mollet, the premier of France, will be here to address hon. members of this house and of the other place at 11.30 a.m. on Monday, and to suggest to hon. members that it would be convenient if they were in their seats a few minutes before 11.30 a.m.



EXPORT AND IMPORT PERMITS ACT


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved: the first reading of Bill No. 206 (from the Senate), to amend the Export and Import Permits Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver-Quadra):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister. Press dispatches this morning indicate that President Nasser apparently has not given any assurance that the Suez canal will be open to all shipping once it has been cleared. In view of the fact that the canal is supposed to be opened again a week from Sunday, that is on March 10, this question is becoming very pressing. Apparently there is great concern, for example in Great Britain, as to whether or not the canal is to be open to all ships.
Can the Prime Minister give us the latest information which the Canadian government has on this question and tell us whether there is this probability that the canal will not be open to all ships? Can the Canadian government not take some steps to bring about a situation under which the canal will be open to all shipping?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, there are a great many rumours, some of them rather contradictory, which are being reported from New York, from Washington and from Cairo at this moment. Our information is only that they are rumours; there will probably be some clarification of the situation after the representative of Israel has made the statement this afternoon for which the deliberations of the United Nations were adjourned until today.


Howard Charles Green: They don't deal with the canal, do they?


Mr.   Si. Laureni@Quebec East: They do not deal with the canal, but the attitudes of the various parties will, no doubt, be disclosed as a result of what will be taking place after this declaration by Israel. I can assure the hon. gentleman that we are just as anxious as any others could be, though we are not substantial users of the canal, that it should be opened as a seaway for all nations, and it was for that purpose that it was recommended to parliament in the supplementary estimates that an advance be made by us to the United Nations with a view to hastening the clearing of the canal on the understanding that it was to be a seaway open to the trade of all nations without discrimination. We shall continue to do everything within our power to see that this is accomplished, because it appears to us that that is essential to the maintenance of peace in that area-one of the essential conditions for a settlement of the disputes which have caused such anxiety as a result of the happenings of the last several months with respect to the use of the canal and the attitude of the Egyptian government.


Howard Charles Green: Is Canada participating in
any negotiations which it is hoped may lead to the use of the canal by all shipping?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I cannot say that there are negotiations. The Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) is in constant contact with the secretary general and with representatives of the interested nations in New York. Canada did not participate in the conferences which are reported to have taken place between the representatives of Israel and the American and French authorities in Washington and

Inquiries of the Ministry which led up to this request for an adjournment until this afternoon for Israel to make her position known to the general assembly.


THE BUDGET
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. M. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: May I
ask the Prime Minister, in the absence of the Minister of Finance, whether anything further can be said about the date when the budget will be opened, strongly rumoured as March 19?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: No, Mr. Speaker, there has been no decision as to how soon it will be possible for the Minister of Finance to complete his preparations for his budget address.


NEGOTIATIONS RESPECTING SALE OF WHEAT AND CREDIT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. S. Harkness (Calgary North):: Can
the Minister of Trade and Commerce inform the house as to the situation in regard to the sale of wheat to Poland this year? The question is prompted by a report in the London Free Press of last Wednesday headed: "Credit Dispute May Lose Wheat Deal With Poland". The article goes on to say that there has been some disagreement between the minister's department and the Department of Finance with regard to this wheat.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Negotiations between the government of Canada and the government of Poland are proceeding normally, and I can say categorically that there is no difference of opinion between my colleague the Minister of Finance and me in this matter.


Mr. H. A. Bryson (Humboldt-Melfort):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce arising out of his answer to the question asked by the hon. member for Calgary North. Do I take it that Canada will negotiate a wheat contract with Poland at this time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, we are negotiating with Poland. Whether we are negotiating a contract will appear later, but at the moment we are negotiating.


INQUIRY AS TO SPECIFICATIONS IN EXPORT PERMITS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Caslleden (Yorkion):: I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce a question. When export shipping


permits are granted to Canadian millers, are there any specifications to make sure that the flour exported is made from Canadian wheat?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, no export permits under the Export and Import Permits Act are granted to Canadian millers. Flour is not subject to that act.


POTATOES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture. Has the minister been requested to investigate the reported importation into British Columbia of California potatoes which have been dyed red in order to create the impression that they are new potatoes? Is that true, and, if so, what action is he taking?


Righi Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I can only answer no, that I have not been consulted about the matter, but I will look into it.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Am I correct then in assuming that investigation and control of this practice lie within the jurisdiction of the minister's department?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I do not think the hon. member is correct in assuming that; nevertheless we will look into it.


TRANSPORT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: May I ask a question, notice of which I sent this morning to the office of the Minister of Transport? In view of his absence I ask my question in the hope that my notice has been put in the hands of some other minister. How many accidents have occurred at the level crossing which was the scene of yesterday's accident at Bells Corners? Is there any wigwag or other protective device at this crossing?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As the acting minister the notice was handed to me but the answer to the question was not handed to me. I will call the attention of the Minister of Transport to the question.


PIPE LINES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce? In view of his statement on Monday that until the northern Ontario pipe line is finished Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited have nothing to do with it, will he comment on yesterday's release through Cockfield, Brown and Company Limited that Trans-Canada will supervise the construction by the crown corporation of 310 miles of 30-inch pipe from the Manitoba-Ontario border to Port Arthur?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, certain engineering work has been done by Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited on behalf of the government for the government section of the line. The crown corporation responsible for the building of the line has been reorganized to take in the nominees of the government of Ontario. I understand that the reorganized board is meeting next Tuesday and whether or not they will retain Trans-Canada as their engineers or retain other engineers will appear after that date. But that fact has nothing to do with my statement that our relations with Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited are not such that the government has any right or any duty to examine the stock register of Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the minister aware that I was referring not to what transpired yesterday but to his statement on Monday that until the line is completed Trans-Canada has absolutely nothing to do with the northern Ontario section, in contrast to which Cock-field, Brown and Company say that Trans-Canada is supervising its construction?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Cockfield, Brown can say what they like. The situation at the moment is that Trans-Canada has done certain engineering work for us and may do certain work for us later, but at the moment there are no contractual arrangements with Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited to do anything for the government.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask a supplementary question? What is the significance of the fact that Trans-Canada has chosen as its publicity agent the same advertising agency that is used by the Liberal party?


Clarence Decatur Howe: What you call a snide question.
82715-113i
Supply-Post Office SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT
[Stage Direction]
333. Departmental administration, including an amount of $250,000 to defray the expenses of the 1957 congress of the Universal Postal Union to be held in Ottawa, $2,091,516.
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, will the Postmaster General make a statement?


Mr. Lapointe:: Mr. Chairman, I could make a few general remarks to hon. members respecting the operation of the Post Office Department before proceeding to the discussion of the estimates for the fiscal year 1957-58.
At the outset may I inform hon. members that the revenue for the fiscal year which ended in 1956 and which appears in the departmental report was $158,568,356. The revenue for the current fiscal year-which can only be an estimate as hon. members will realize because the fiscal year will terminate on March 31-has been estimated at $169,658,000, an increase of slightly over $11 million, or approximately 7 per cent.
I think these figures serve to indicate the increase in the activities and the volume of business of the Post Office Department during recent years. The economic development of Canada of course is of vital concern to the Post Office Department as this department must endeavour to keep in close touch with such development in order to provide the necessary postal services.
The many new problems imposed upon the department as a result of changing trends in industrial and residential areas are being met and have been met through the adoption of new methods of operation and new methods of transportation as well as through the extension of the ordinary postal services.
During recent years there has been a considerable increase in services throughout the country. Letter carrier services in cities have been expanded through the establishment of entirely new services and the extension of existing services, and in the fringe areas of cities where the necessary requirements for letter carrier services have not yet been fully met, a new type of service was instituted a few years ago which is described as the "group box service". This was developed to provide postal patrons with delivery of mail at a central point near their homes, pending the establishment of regular door-to-door services by a letter carrier. During the last fiscal year over 30,000 such group boxes were installed for the service of patrons.
As an illustration of the expansion which has taken place in postal services during the

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last year, I think the following statistics may be of interest to hon. members. The increase in the number of letter carrier routes, that is new routes served by letter carriers, has been 217. The increase in the number of rural routes in operation has been 55; the extension of rural routes, 532. The increase in the number of householders served at letter carrier offices was 288,633, while the increase in the number of householders served by rural mail delivery was 21,180. The extension of the services to which I have just referred naturally brought forward the question of the adjustment of compensation to mail contractors particularly those engaged in rural services where, in many cases, it was found the compensation did not meet the present cost of operation. As a result of studies undertaken by the department in recent months, to which I referred a few weeks ago in answer to a question from one hon. member, steps have been taken to rectify this situation. When hon. members refer to the items of the estimates they will see a vote which provides for that.
In the matter of transportation one of the events which, although regrettable, has emphasized the flexibility of the service provided by the post office was the strike of the employees of the Canadian Pacific Railway which took place on January 2 and extended to January 13 or 14. On that occasion the department was faced with the problem of organizing alternative mail service for all those points which were normally served by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I must say that I am pleased to be able to report that the personnel of the department were able to meet the challenge. Services were continued for every locality, even points where there were absolutely no road facilities. I feel that this is an indication of the capabilities of the personnel of the department to meet such emergencies, and I was pleased that the comments from both the public and the press were most favourable.
An important development in the transportation of mail has been brought about by the tendency of the railway companies to curtail or cancel completely services on certain lines which they feel cannot be operated economically, or to introduce on some lines a new type of equipment, a diesel car known as the Budd car, which tends to speed up passenger service on an economical basis but does not provide for the volume carriage of mail normally transported. This new policy of the railways has made it necessary for the department to seek other means of transportation. In most cases, as hon. members know, motor vehicle service has been established. Generally speaking, in establishing 
such motor vehicle service to replace curtailed or cancelled trains, the department requires a schedule which provides for the most expeditious dispatch and conveyance of the mails. This has resulted in giving service which is at least as adequate as, and in certain cases an improvement over, service provided in the past.
As hon. members will understand, the expansion in postal services which has been brought about by the rapid growth of this country has brought a multiplicity of management problems in the department. To meet this situation the department has been conducting a training program for the purpose of giving headquarters officers and personnel at the various levels an intimate knowledge of conditions and problems existing in the field service, and also to give personnel in the field service experience at headquarters level. This and other activities in the field of personnel development have not only had the effect of improving the performance of management staff in their present job but have also enabled the department to obtain adequate reserves of personnel who are able to take over increased responsibilities as the demand may arise.
Hon. members will recall that a few years ago the department embarked on a decentralization program, as had been recommended to the department. This has been practically completed throughout the whole service and is working in a very satisfactory manner.
There have also been developments in the international mail services. The exchange of all classes of mail between Canada and other countries is operating on an efficient basis and advantages have been taken of all available, dependent and advantageous opportunities for the dispatch of mail from Canada. There have been more extensions of mail service to other countries, and air parcel post service from Canada now reaches practically all countries of the world. Speaking of international services, I think I should draw to the attention of the committee the meeting of the universal postal union which is to be held in Ottawa as a result of the invitation extended by the Canadian government at the last congress in 1952. This will be the 14th congress of the postal union, and the opening date has been set for August 14 of this year.
I would like to point out that the universal postal union is the oldest international organization of its type in existence. It was established in Berne in 1874. Canada joined the union in 1878. It is an international body which has been accomplishing its work and has been functioning ever since its inception regardless of the political

situation throughout the world. It is an association of countries, having for its object the establishment of a uniform and practical international postal service. The congresses are held every five years, and the delegates of all the member nations, which at the present time number 96, meet in order to revise or complete the acts of the preceding congress as required. The last congress took place in Brussels in 1952, and Canada was signally honoured by being chosen as the place in which the next congress would be held. This is the first time since 1897 that the congress has taken place on the North American continent. It is expected that approximately 350 delegates will be present and the details attendant upon making arrangements for such a congress have for the past three years been receiving the close attention of officers of this department as well as of other departments which may be concerned. It is expected that as usual many proposals will be submitted by the member countries having for their aim the improvement in the exchange of all classes of international mail throughout the world, with resultant benefits for the general public. Just to give an idea of how long and arduous is the work of the congress I might say that at Brussels there were over 1,600 proposals presented for discussion by the delegates.
I said that my remarks would be of a general nature. As usual I shall be pleased to give hon. members all the information I have available on the estimates for the fiscal year 1957-58 which cover the funds which we feel are necessary to keep pace with the developments I have mentioned already. They are based as far as practicable upon forecasts of increased population and the increased use of the mail services by both business and the general public.
(Translation):


Mr. Dufresne:: Mr. Chairman, I have been listening with a great deal of attention and interest to the statement which has just been made by the Postmaster General and I have noted the detailed information which he kindly supplied about his department.
A moment ago he spoke of the delivery of mail throughout Canada, particularly during the Canadian Pacific railway strike. In all fairness, I must recognize that the employees of the Post Office Department on this inauspicious occasion fully measured up to their responsibilities and that they very
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efficiently carried out their duties under particularly trying conditions.
Mr. Chairman, this morning I will have a few general remarks to make, as well as other remarks of more local interest later. In submitting them to the minister's attention, I wish it to be understood that I have in mind the interests of his department as well as the interests of my constituents and of the people of Quebec city where I live.
I wonder if the department would not consider returning to the old system of twice daily mail deliveries. It would mean, I think, a very great improvement, not only for manufacturers, merchants and professional people, but also for the public as a whole. Since the once a day delivery was introduced, mail carriers have had to serve far larger areas. I feel this makes their work that much more difficult, especially if we consider distance, the many stairways they have to climb up and down, and the bad Weather they have to face.
Mr. Chairman, my constituency has some business establishments. Having visited some of these at the time the mail came in, I notice that it arrived around 5 or 5.30 in the afternoon, just before closing time. I think that twice daily mail delivery would constitute a real improvement, and I do not see why the department could not see its way clear to re-establishing this system as soon as possible. After all, the taxpayer now pays more postage and it seems to me that he should obtain an improvement in service at least equivalent to this increase.
I would like now to make a few remarks concerning the new stamp issues which will be sold in the various post offices of this country starting March 7. Judging from the illustrations which have come out they represent Canadian sports or sports activities carried out in Canada. There is one on fishing, another on hunting, a third on skiing-a very popular sport in Canada, particularly in my own province, and finally a fourth which, it seemed to me, represents swimming, I did take a close look at that one and, after putting on my glasses, I thought that it pictured a female swimmer. I will not attempt to comment on her looks because the adjectives which I would be tempted to use would be far from parliamentary. I am all for underlining in this way the role of sports in our country, but I wonder if it would not be possible to issue stamps showing a picture of people who have rendered great service to Canada.

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Last year, acting upon the request of the caisses populaires of the province of Quebec, I had the pleasure to request the department to issue a stamp commemorating that great Canadian founder of credit unions, Commander Desjardins. I made this suggestion

which I found excellent-following a large number of requests which had been made to me by the authorities of a great many of these credit unions in my province. For a reason which I cannot discuss because I do not know what it is, the government saw fit to turn down that request.
This year-some one mentioned it in the house early this week-February 22nd marked the golden jubilee of the scout movement and the centenary of Lord Baden-Powell, the distinguished founder of that movement which has done so much in the past and still does so much good among the youth of our country. The scout movement of Canada has reached noteworthy proportions, so much so that the Canadian Scout Association whidh had hardly 15,000 members in 1914 now has more than 200,000 members. I think, Mr. Chairman, that if a stamp was issued with a portrait of Lord Baden-Powell we would pay a respectful and delicate tribute to the memory of a great leader whose initiative and devotion were highly recognized in all countries of the commonwealth.
Mr. Chairman, reverting to a more local matter, may I call upon the minister to do what he can to speed up if possible the negotiations which have been going on for more than a year between authorities of the Canadian National Railways and Quebec city so that the capital of my province might finally obtain its postal terminal, that we have been hearing about for almost three years now. The minister might say that the building of this postal terminal is primarily a responsibility of the Department of Public Works. However, I believe that if the minister brought pressure to bear to hasten the building of that terminal, Canadian National authorities might move a little faster in their negotiations, because they are the ones responsible for the slowness of those negotiations to which the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) referred the other day in reply to a question I had asked.
Mr. Chairman, either the postal terminal is a necessity or it is not. If it is, let us do whatever is required to have it built with the least possible delay.
Mr. Chairman, I should now like to speak on behalf of the majority of the people I
[Mr. Dufresne.l
have the honour to represent in this house in requesting from the minister necessary improvements at what is known as the St. Sauveur post office. It now occupies an old building which could be improved considerably or, better still, completely rebuilt along more modern lines. St. Sauveur district, as the minister well knows, comprises seven densely populated parishes and it would only be fair, I believe, to build an adequate and more modern post office there.
I also wish to call the minister's attention to complaints which have been made to me to the effect that some employees of the central post office on Henderson street, in Quebec city, are no longer allowed to use a chair or some kind of a bench while at work. I believe it is particularly in connection with the distribution or sorting of local mail, and I cannot see why these people, who are forced to spend long hours on their feet, could not do this work as well as they did in the past if they were allowed occasionally to sit on a bench or chair.
I would also point out to the minister that it might be a good plan to look into the matter of certain people who are a little lacking in humanity in dealing with subordinate staff.
It seems to me that these faithful public servants should be treated with a little more consideration and not be told, every time they sit down at their work: "Say there, this is not a hospital. If you can't do your work standing up, you had better go home!" All the employees I know perform their task conscientiously and deserve, I think, a better treatment.
I take this opportunity to protest against the dictatorial doings of some authorities whose aim is to curry favour not so much with the minister as with the deputy minister, who seems to forget that before he became deputy minister he was just a minor official. The deputy minister has become a sort of bugaboo with the employees of the Post Office Department throughout Canada, and all of them, except for some of his executive staff, will heave a real sigh of relief and satisfaction the day he will announce the exact date of his retirement. In the interest of the department and of its faithful employees, I hope that he will not be succeeded by one of his understudies, one of his creatures.
In connection with dictatorial doings, I might say a word about the red tape in the

department. Let me give you an example of all the time that is wasted in seijding to the employees letters which, to my mind, are ridiculous. On April 19, 1956-as far as I can make out the date-a Montreal newspaper published a copy of a letter which had been sent to all employees of the Post Office Department. Let me read you this letter. The name is omitted, of course, and you will understand why. I quote:
Your record shows that in the fiscal year 1955-56 you arrived late for work for a total of five rpinutes.
Note the five minutes.
For your own good, as well as for the good of the service, I advise you to take the necessary steps to come to work on time, otherwise you would run the risk of losing part of your annual leave as stated in departmental circular letter No. 399 of May 2, 1955.
Signed: V. M. Chalin For: RENE BOILEAU Postmaster.
Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the Post Office Department could make better use of its time than writing to employees who certainly have done their duty conscientiously, and upbraiding them, not for a single absence in 365 days, but for having once reported to work five minutes late. As I say, this is ridiculous and mean, and it is high time something were done to avoid recurrence of such nonsense.
While I am on the subject of punctuality and holidays, I want to point out to the minister the unfairness, in respect to which I think he will agree with me, of remunerating overtime done by postal employees (particularly during the holiday rush) by means of additional leave instead of cash. If those employees, most of them family men, are willing to forego their leisure and restful time at home to work overtime, they obviously need to earn a little more than the salary they get.
I do not see why the department should obstinately refuse to pay them at an hourly rate, and force them to take additional leave in payment of their overtime.
Would the hon. minister object to telling us, when closing the debate, if his department has succeeded in negotiating a new contract for letter carriers with the Quebec Power Company, of the city of Quebec?
And now, I would ask the hon. minister to approach the postal authorities of the city of Quebec about letting some 80 residents of a small place along North River, called Boudreau Park, but named St. Sauveur for
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delivery purposes, call for their mail at a roadside garage near their homes. This is a new residential district, which is not yet finished. Such action would not only greatly benefit the residents, but the man who has to deliver the mail.
I was very much amused the other day, Mr. Chairman, when I asked the hon. minister to try to stop the practice whereby members of this house receive in their postal boxes propaganda which is sent to them almost daily by the Russian Embassy in Ottawa. The hon. minister answered that if the hon. representative from Quebec West would allow him to open his mail he would stop the communications from reaching him. Of course, I am not inclined to let the hon. Postmaster General open my mail.


Hugues Lapointe: It might sometimes prove embarrassing.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: It might be rather more compromising for my friends opposite.


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, compromising too.


Mr. Boisvert:: For the hon. member for Quebec West.


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: Yes, definitely.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: For my friends opposite, yes.
I only meant the propaganda I mentioned at that time, and I thought the hon. minister knew it. All I am referring to now are those pamphlets which come to us almost every day from the Russian Embassy, and which are nothing but propaganda. My representations the other day may have had a certain effect, for I must say that since then I have not received a single one of those pamphlets.
Mr. Chairman, I want to conclude my remarks by telling this house and the hon. minister about an editorial published on July 14, 1956, by Le Reveil, of Ste. Foy, a suburb of Quebec and a prosperous little place, which rightly complains that the Post Office Department has replaced its historic and about a century old name by the designation "Quebec No. 10". I do not see how the delivery can be made easier by a single figure, when it would be quite as convenient to use the name of a town in the suburban area of a larger city. This is what the editorial says:
The name of our city has been changed.
Ste-Foy, parish, town and city, known under that name for hundreds of years, no longer exists.
According to official notices of the Post Office Department, Ste-Foy is no longer in existence.
Its official name is now Quebec 10.
There was a time, not so long ago, when villages and towns were known under the name given to

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them by their founders. A name, like Ste-Foy, meant something; it usually had historic connotations; it sometimes recalled a legend, a fact, a great personality or even a humorous occasion. Anyway, that name meant something.
Times have changed.
We are now up-to-date, as they are in "the States".
Quebec 10!
Who ordered this change?
The federal parliament? No!
The provincial parliament? No!
The county council? No!
The city council? No!
A popular referendum? No!
In fact, this change did not originate with any responsible public body; it was made without the public or anybody being consulted. It has simply been ordered by an official of the Post Office Department.
The official reason is no doubt that mail bearing an address such as "Quebec 10" can be handled and delivered faster than mail addressed "Ste-Foy, P.Q.".
If this radical change helped improve to any extent the postal service-not only mail delivery but the whole postal service-it could perhaps be justified but, in fact, the only improvement so far has been to strengthen the monopoly of the Henderson street post office at the expense of local sub-stations.
Ste-Foy, which has now been arbitrarily deprived of its name by the Post Office Department, without even a consultation; Ste-Foy, with a population of 16,000 people, covering an area greater than Quebec city, has not even a suitable post office.
We still have the small post office under the most devoted and competent direction of Miss Laroche, but it is totally inadequate. The premises are far too small, the post office is understaffed and the special services are completely inexistent.
If you wish to enjoy postal privileges for your mail-not a favour but a statutory privilege-you cannot get it by sending your request to the Ste. Foy post office. No. You must go to the Henderson street post office-five miles from the Suete road-where no parking is allowed at any hour of the day. All postal business, other than the purchase of postage stamps, must be dealt with there. And if you are granted privileges to which you are entitled by law, you must deliver the postal items to which such privileges do apply, to the Henderson street post office and nowhere else. Otherwise, your privileges are lost.
In the language of the civil service, this is called "streamlining". But, in everyday language, where words are stronger and carry more meaning, this is simply called an abuse or a lack of the sense of its responsibility toward the taxpaying population on the part of a public department.
Ste-Foy is not the only suburban town affected; our neighbour, Sillery, is not much better off, even though it has a more modern building.
A few years ago, that same Post Office Department at a stroke of the pen crossed out the name of St. Boniface, a small French-Canadian town, near Winnipeg. It was simply decided that from then on that town would be known in postal vernacular, as Winnipeg 6. Fortunately, the French-speaking element, in the provinces where it is a minority, is not dead, far from it; so the department had to reconsider its decision and to find another solution, a very simple one indeed, to the problem of mail distribution. As a matter of fact, the solution is simple; it consists for the Post Office Department in "minding its own business", i.e. the proper delivery of mail entrusted to the "mails of Her Majesty Elizabeth II" in Canada, in receiving this mail and delivering it as addressed and not where the department wishes

it were addressed. The choice of a town's name is no business of the Post Office Department.
It is as simple as that . . .
But if we want it to remain simple, we must not try to "put everything in the same mail bag"; in other words, instead of attempting to enlarge the Henderson street post office to the bursting point, it would be much wiser and more logical to establish local post offices in every suburban town and to give each one of them the responsibilities and facilities which will enable them to serve the public efficiently, swiftly and economically.
(Signed) The Editor.
(Text):


The Chairman:: Order. I regret to interrupt the hon. member but it is my duty to advise him that his time has expired,


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had just about completed my remarks.


Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):: Mr. Chairman, certainly the C.C.F. is very happy to associate itself with the tribute paid by the minister to the loyalty and efficiency of the postal staff in this country. It is natural I think that most of us should come in touch most frequently with our letter carriers and I know that in Winnipeg whether it be in tropical heat or arctic winter my mail is always delivered promptly. On occasions even for weeks at a time the temperature may descend to 15 or 20 below zero with the wind blowing either from the prairies or from the tundras yet always the letter carrier is on the job performing his duties faithfully and diligently.
But if I have a high regard for the services which are given to us by the staff of the Post Office Department I do not have that same high regard for some of the policies of the department. The minister said in his introductory remarks that the department keeps in close touch with developments in order to provide needed services. That may be so generally but specifically I am prepared to argue that it is not so.
There is in my constituency a municipality which is growing very rapidly and which within a few weeks will become a city because it has applied for a charter. I refer to East Kildonan. The population there in 1946 was some 8,000 souls. Now there are approximately 20,000 human beings resident in that city and in the opinion of those who live there-and they are responsible people who tell me this-the postal services are inadequate.
There are three sub-post offices, two in drugstores and one in a corner store. There is no complaint concerning the quality of

service that is rendered by the people who operate these sub-post offices. There is complaint, however, about the lack of facilities. These people are doing their best but the fact remains that in this rapidly developing municipality new stores, banks and offices are being opened. The answer which was given to me when I pointed this out to the minister was that the revenue which these sub-post offices receive was really not very great and certainly not sufficient to justify a post office being erected there. But again I am informed-and I accept the word of those who tell me this because they know-that a very substantial number of the residents of East Kildonan do not use the postal services there but instead take their mail, parcels and so on down town into Winnipeg. The department tells me that there is a post office in Winnipeg proper, station "F", which is quite near East Kildonan and that is true; it is six blocks away. But this post office serves Elmwood which has a population of approximately 15 or 16 thousand and I am informed it also has to serve East Kildonan with a population of nearly 20,000. If the minister had an opportunity to examine this post office he would realize that the staff has its problems there. The facilities are not at all adequate and furthermore the letter carriers, those people who at times I think do a job far beyond the call of duty, have to depart from station "F" to go into all the corners of East Kildonan, and I am not sure that is a fair thing to ask of these letter carriers. What I am concerned about is getting a proper post office for this burgeoning city of East Kildonan. A question I should like the minister to answer now, if he can, is this. How many cities with a population of 20,000 in this country do not have a post office?


Hugues Lapointe: I will try and find out that information. I do not think my hon. friend expects me to have at the tip of my fingers the number of cities with a population of
20.000	that do not have a post office building in the sense in which he speaks of one.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I am
prepared to accept the minister's explanation but nevertheless I am also prepared to say now that I do not believe there are many cities in this country with a population of
20.000	which do not have a post office. The case which has been put up by East Kildonan is a most valid one and while the department
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has turned it down cold in the past I do not think the request can be reasonably ignored when one considers the situation that is actually prevailing there and the fact that the facilities of the sub-post offices are not being used because they are inadequate and the people of East Kildonan use the postal facilities in Winnipeg. If the minister would obtain the information as to how many cities with a population of 20,000 do not have a post office I will be prepared to discuss this subject further with him.


Mr. Shaw:: Mr. Chairman, strange though it may seem, my purpose in participating in the debate at this time is not to protest, complain or criticize but rather to commend the department for certain developments within my own constituency.
A few years ago, as I recall now, I did have cause to stand here in my place in the house and register some rather severe criticism, most of which, if I recall correctly, related to the inadequacy of the facilities, but fortunately those difficulties have been or are being met.
Possibly I should suggest to the Postmaster General that some of his own members may criticize as a consequence of what I am going to say now. Officials of the department will recall that it was not many years ago that we had a very difficult situation in the city of Red Deer. In 1940 the population was approximately 3,000 and today it is over 14,000. During that time a beautiful building was constructed in the city costing iri excess of a quarter of a million dollars. Then, of course, a door-to-door delivery system was instituted and this took care of that difficult situation. In my own home town of Innisfail they are now in the process of constructing a building the cost of which I presume will run in the neighbourhood of $80,000. In the estimates last year there was $155,000 for a building in Three Hills, and I notice there is another $50,000 in the estimates this year. There was a difficult situation in the town of Olds last year, so I am pleased to find $150,000 in the estimates this year for a public building. It is for this reason I say the minister may, as a consequence of these things, have some difficulty with his own members. While we may not have had more difficult problems than those which existed iri other constituencies, possibly we did put forward a little additional pressure or something of that kind.
I am going to go beyond that and say that the vast improvement which we have en-

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joyed in service in that constituency must be attributed in large measure to the personnel of the Post Office Department, plus the fact that a policy was adopted of placing area superintendents iri strategic points. The first area superintendent in the Red Deer area was Mr. Ivor Beams, who is no longer there in that capacity. He was given a well deserved promotion and is now postmaster in the city of Calgary. The area superintendent established a very close liaison between the local postmasters arid between the department and the mail carriers. I feel this was a tremendously important development. Mr. Beams has been succeeded by Mr. J. L. Catley who was in Calgary prior to coming to Red Deer. He is also doing a very excellent job.
I cannot, of course, overlook the district director and his staff in Calgary. May I just point out something that happened very recently. I had cause to write to the postmaster at Red Deer to secure certain information, not about his own office. I got a reply and then wrote to the area superintendent, and got a reply. He in turn got in touch with the district director in Calgary, who in turn got in touch with the director of transport in Ottawa, who in turn got in touch with me. All of this happened within the space of eight days, so one could not complain much about that. I must say that I am extremely pleased to find that that sort of situation exists. I am riot going to suggest that a slight problem might not crop up from time to time, but I do wish to take this opportunity of commending the Post Office Department. If all services within my constituency were operated as satisfactorily as the Post Office Department, perhaps my constituents would decide they did not need me and that would be a rather unhappy development, looking at it from a personal point of view.
I must say also that my Liberal opponent is taking credit for all that has been done. I have simply told the people that if he can do all that has been done they would be foolish to send him to Ottawa; he is too valuable back there. I think probably the people will take my advice in that respect. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I must say I am always pleased to give credit where credit is due. On the other hand, I find it possible to criticize where I think criticism is justified.
I do wish to commend the post office authorities, and I cannot forget the Department of Public Works because, after all, they construct 
the building. My thanks, therefore, are extended to them. They have given us a highly satisfactory type of service in the Red Deer constituency and I know the people are very pleased with what has been done.


Mr. Enfield:: Supply-Post Office
area, where there are a million and a hall people, a vast amount of mail is on a local basis. That change has been a great help indeed.
Another point the minister mentioned was a type of service that was instituted last year by the group box service. Hon. members may not know just exactly what it is. It consists of a group of boxes, many people call them green boxes because they are painted green. When you get a new residential subdivision with perhaps two or three hundred houses in it, and which is separated from the normal growth of the area by perhaps a mile or more of empty land which is not built on, they are sort of sitting there in isolated positions. They have all of the normal services of a city such as roads, water, sewers and streets, but because of this isolation they have not door-to-door mail delivery. It is not possible to bring the delivery to them because there is no transportation and because of other factors that may make it very difficult to give them that service. But in the new service the post office provides the boxes and puts them in groups of perhaps 20 or 30. Usually there is just one location, with sometimes two or three on the main road of the subdivision and every householder has a box. The whole thing has a locking system on it. Instead of the people having to go to the local corner store, the drug store or the post office where they have a general delivery system, the mailman simply deposits the mail in the group boxes and when the people return home from work at night, or the children from school, they go to the boxes and pick up the mail. It is an imaginative idea because it fills in the interim period when people just naturally demand a door-to-door delivery and when circumstances are not such that delivery can be instituted.
We have found this system most useful in many parts of my constituency. I might at this time mention to the minister and the department that there will be many more requests in the near future for this type of thing from my constituency.
As I say, it has not all been easy. There are perhaps two or three fields in which some improvement can be made. With great respect I want to put on the record a few recommendations, four to be exact, in regard to changes in procedure and system which might be of some benefit to the department.
The first has to do with the initiation of new mail delivery services. I submit that there should be greater local authority to initiate necessary surveying in order to bring to the attention of the department the need for

new delivery services. Let me explain the present system. The local postmaster, say of Scarborough, knowing the area he is serving, is required to keep his eye on the developments on the fringe of his area and at the appropriate time make recommendations to the postmaster in Toronto who has supervisory authority over all the other local post offices.
He makes a recommendation that an official survey be made of the area concerned. The postmaster in Toronto then communicates with the operations department in Ottawa and requests authority to make such a survey. Authority is given and he has the survey carried out through the local postmaster, in this case the Scarborough postmaster. The survey is prepared and forwarded by the postmaster in Toronto, after he has looked it over, to the operations department in Ottawa. Then they make a decision as to what if any new services will be provided in the area concerned.
As hon. members can understand, there is quite a chain of command involved in this process. There are to some degree delays that occur between the intermediate steps which are taken. My suggestion is that once a pattern of growth is established, such as has occurred in that part of Toronto, the Toronto postmaster should be given authority to tell the local postmaster to prepare surveys. As a matter of fact they could tell the local postmaster to keep a running survey in the form of a chart or map. As the area grows he could simply indicate the increase in the surrounding residential subdivisions so that he could at any time inform the postmaster in Toronto exactly what was occurring in the fringes of his area.
If this were done the postmaster in Toronto, after this had reached a certain point, could transmit the information to the operations department at Ottawa and request that it be reviewed. About one-half of the steps that are now taken could perhaps be eliminated with I think very little extra help being required to keep such a running survey. In an area where you have an established growth pattern such as we have in metro Toronto such a system might prove most beneficial in speeding up the initiation of new door to door services. That is my first recommendation.
My second recommendation has to do with transportation. We see changes occurring in transportation methods in our large cities. At one time you could not get people to live in suburban subdivisions unless there was public transportation available, but that day has passed. We now have expressways and modern highways. Everybody has a car, in fact a tremendous number of people have two cars. You find people living with normal city services out in what would in the past have

been isolated suburban subdivisions, driving their own cars with no public transportation available.
We in metro Toronto have been greatly disappointed in the progress the Toronto transportation commission has made in providing public transportation to these areas. This handicaps the work of the post office because under the present regulations a mail carrier service cannot be provided unless there is some means of getting to the area by public transportation.
I wonder if there is not some way by which the Post Office Department could provide alternative methods of transportation in order to get their mail delivery men into these areas. It is my understanding that under the present regulations a man cannot use his own car, and perhaps this could be looked at. Perhaps mail delivery men could be found who would provide their own transportation for which they would be recompensed. Perhaps it would be possible for the local post office where such service is required to have some sort of trucking service by which the postmen could be taken in to the area and brought out at the proper time, or perhaps mail delivery men could live in the area and their mail be taken in and dropped at a point for them to pick it up.
I submit the thinking of the department will have to turn in that direction. Perhaps my suggestions have not been too comprehensive in that regard, but I am concerned with this change that has occurred in transportation methods. I would urge the department to consider modifying the regulations to provide for other means of transportation than public transportation for the mail carriers where required. That is my second recommendation.
My third recommendation has to do with co-operation between the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works in regard to the construction of new buildings. It is quite a lengthy procedure to make arrangements for the construction of a new post office building. It is necessary first to find a site, and in a fast-growing area that is not easy. In fact, sometimes that is the most difficult part of the whole process. Once a site is chosen it has to be purchased and the legal procedures necessary to get title carried through. Then proper surveys must be made so that a building can be designed of the right size to handle not only the present needs but the future needs. Then the building has to be tendered for and erected.
We found considerable difficulty in getting through these procedures in connection with the construction of our Scarborough post
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office. Fortunately the department was able to acquire temporary quarters in which they could provide service before the new building was completed. That permitted the department to take a little more time in planning for the new building. The department may be surprised to know that this building in Scarborough which has just been completed is now packed to the limit. I visited it the other day and found that with the institution of some of the new services we hope to get the officials will be hard put to find space in which to continue the operations.
Fortunately the building was constructed in such a manner that the back wall can be knocked out and an addition erected. It is indicative of the growth of that area that most of the public buildings, not just the post office but the schools and everything else, are constructed in this manner so that changes can be made. However, I would recommend and request, Mr. Chairman, that there should be closer contact between the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works in order to speed up the processes which must necessarily be gone through and to have these buildings constructed more expeditiously. I think that is a matter to which it would be beneficial for both departments to give some thought. That is my third recommendation.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I want to mention post office salaries. I have a schedule of salaries here, not, of course, for the whole post office system but for postmasters in Scarborough and other towns, postal clerks, sorters, wicket clerks and letter carriers. A letter carrier begins at a salary of $2,640 a year and after four years reaches a maximum of $3,360. Postal clerks start at $2,640 and after six years can reach $3,660. I simply do not know, Mr. Chairman, how a married man raising a family can exist on $2,640 a year, and I do not know how he can look forward with any great anticipation to a maximum of $3,360 or $3,660, for that matter, after four or six years of work.
I know it is not possible to divorce salaries paid to postal clerks and postmasters from the general level of the salaries paid throughout the civil service. That is a matter for the civil service commission. And yet I think there should be greater flexibility in the system used. I have to pay a good legal secretary at least $60 a week, even to start, in order to get anyone in Toronto. That works out around $3,100 a year. Yet here we have postal clerks and letter carriers who have the responsibility of dealing with your mail and mine who are working hard, and starting at $2,640 in both cases. I do urge the department to take a hard look at these salaries to see if something cannot be done to provide a better

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income for these people. At $3,360 a year a letter carrier can hardly qualify under the National Housing Act to purchase a house in which to make a home. This may not be too comprehensive an argument, but it is at least an illustration that there are civil servants at the present time who do not have the salary qualification necessary before they can take advantage of federal legislation which was presumably passed for the benefit of every Canadian.
I see that the salary for the postmaster at Scarborough has a starting rate of $5,040. A postmaster in a post office such as Scarborough has 37 letter carriers to supervise; he has all the necessary sorters and wicket clerks to look after, in addition to his deputies, yet with all this responsibility he is starting off at $5,000 a year. Why, a man doing a similar job in private business would be earning at least $10,000; you would not get a good man to do the job for less.
It is true that there are other benefits in the civil service which are not found in private business, but I think it is high time we took another look at these salaries and tried to do something about it.
Well, Mr. Chairman, those are my four recommendations. As the minister has said, this is a question of the post office keeping abreast of the economic development of our country and providing the necessary services to go along with it. I must say I have been pleased with the effort put forth in this riding of York-Scarborough, which is the most populous riding in Canada-


William Alfred Robinson: I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. member, but it is my duty to tell him that his time is expired.


Frank A. Enfield: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I am just coming to my conclusion-and I am going to urge the minister to keep up the good work.


Mr. Small:: Mr. Chairman, like other hon. members who have spoken on this question I am interested in having a first-class postal service. While there may have been some criticism of policy there has been very little criticism of the services that have been rendered. In fact, in the cases where the services are at fault it has generally been not the fault of those who are performing those services but can be traced to some other source.
The report which the Post Office Department has presented must, of necessity, take some little time to examine, but I note that reference is made to a favourable balance of about $10,250,000. Then the report goes on to deal with expenditures which will dispose of this surplus, completely disregarding the

fact that there may be some revenue taken in. The civil service increase, it is said, will probably take some $6,500,000, and the proposed increased payment to postmasters will take another $2,500,000. Next, the report goes on to deal with budgetary costs and railway rates. One would expect that in the course of the year there would, under normal conditions, be an increase in the amount of business done, and a consequent increase in revenue which would take care of extra costs.
If one examines revenue increases during the last ten years the situation becomes clearer. Last year, for example, a revenue increase of $6,851,000 over the previous year was reported. The increase in expenditure compared with the previous year was $3,810,000. On an average, over the last ten years, the increase in revenue has been $7,470,000, while the increase in expenditure, also on a ten-year average, has amounted to $7,530,000. If hon. members will subtract these figures they will find that expenditures are increasing at the rate of about $60,000 a year, that is, expenditures are overtaking revenues to that extent. If this goes on it will cancel out the benefit from the increased revenues. In one of those years, 1955, when the new rates were put into effect-the rates were doubled in some cases-the revenue jumped to some $21 million, expenditure at the same time being $11 million. Then, in 1956, the department reported a revenue increase of $685,000, and, in the same year, increased expenditure of $4,280,000. The year before, it was doubled. This year it is practically one-third. That was due to the new rates which had been in force for two years. There is no means of telling how we have progressed this year because this report, like all other reports, is practically useless.
Because they are practically a year late it is almost impossible to make an analysis of how the department has improved. As has been outlined by the hon. member for York-Scarborough, a phenomenal increase has taken place in what the president of the Canadian National Railways has called the satellite centres on the outskirts of metropolitan Toronto and other cities. The increase is enormous and with the increased business naturally the revenue will increase. But at the same time, as has been pointed out, demands will be made that probably cannot be met because there is not sufficient population in the area to establish another route. However, I would say for the benefit of the member for York-Scarborough that he has something to be proud of because I notice that he has not done too badly so far as the establishment of letter carrier routes is concerned and probably he may do better in the future. He has

been able to get 25 routes established in Scarborough and the neighbouring member for York Centre has been able to get ten routes in his riding.


Frank A. Enfield: On a question of privilege, it is 37 routes in Scarborough, Ontario.


Robert Hardy Small: That shows the benefit of having the advantage of information that we cannot procure.


Frank A. Enfield: Just use the telephone.


Robert Hardy Small: Adjacent to his riding there is also the Don Mills area. It may be partly in his riding and partly in East York. Another five routes have been established there which is also very good.


Frank A. Enfield: Seven routes, Mr. Chairman.


Robert Hardy Small: Thank you for bringing me up to date. I will probably get the information as I go along. He was a little bit concerned about' the establishment of a new post office and calling it O'Sullivan instead of Scarborough. There is probably some reason for objecting to calling it O'Sullivan. As he pointed out, it was known as O'Sullivan's Corners and in the area that embraced Agin-court, Wexford, O'Sullivan's Corners, Oriole and Lamoureux there was a very decided division along the old town line between York and Scarborough. While it1 was a geographical and natural division, it was also a political one.
On the east side of the old town line is Scarborough and the people were generally Grits and they were taken care of as they are today by Grit governments. On the west side of the town line the people were generally Tory. They always had to fight for everything they got and did not get any advance information to help them obtain needed service. But there are some reasons why the name O'Sullivan's Corners would be objectionable because in the days of the noble experiment when the Ontario temperance act was in vogue it was a very conspicuous point. It was a convenient point for those who wished to indulge in alcoholic beverages and it was the rendezvous for those who wished to participate in that kind of pleasure and endeavour. Later the name of the place was changed because of a new owner and it became more respectable. However, it still remains in the Wexford area that does not get favourable consideration from Grit governments.
I still cannot figure out why they did not call it O'Connor because it is near the late Frank O'Connor's residence and it would fit into the picture to call it O'Connor because he was a very prominent Grit politician. In fact, he ran Mitch Hepburn's administration
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in Ontario at that time. However, the area is changing somewhat. It is not quite so predominantly Grit as it was in those days. It is taking on more respectability because there are more Tories taking up residence.


Mr. Hosking:: You just have to grow old to be generous.


Robert Hardy Small: When you grow old you start to get soft and weak and you get a little bit mellow. Looking at the report of the department it would appear that some of the recommendations in the Woods-Gordon report made some two or three years ago have been put into effect because there appears to be some benefit and some improvement in the operation of the department. However, it is also quite obvious that some of the improvements recommended in that report for the purpose of improving revenue and curtailing expenses have not been adopted. If we could get up-to-date information like the hon. member for York-Scarborough we could probably make a proper appraisal of the situation and arrive at a better understanding than we can with the information we have at the present time.


Frank A. Enfield: It just takes a little initiative.


Robert Hardy Small: Sometimes you run into stone walls in the exercise of initiative with this government. After the inauguration of the new postal rates it was hoped that greatly increased revenue would be derived but we find that such is not the case and that the department is just going back to the old method of financing. The figures I have here indicate that the average surplus over the last ten years is just about the same as the surplus before the new postal rates were put into effect. I believe the average surplus over the last ten years is somewhere around $6J million. Although in the past two years there has been a surplus of $10 million we find it now down to $6 million, which is about the average.
Probably we should examine that point and see whether, by following some of the recommendations made by the member for York-Scarborough, we could not glean the necessary information to bring about the improvements and adjustments that I think are vitally necessary.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Robert Hardy Small: Mr. Chairman, during the noon recess I had an opportunity to give some consideration to the remarks made by the

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hon. member lor York-Scarborough with respect to some of the recommendations he would like to see accepted by the Postmaster General one of which concerned room for expansion of the new post office in his riding. Last year when we were discussing the estimates in the committee the Postmaster was asked at that time if provision had been made for expansion particularly in the York-Scarborough area because, as we pointed out, by the time the post office was built in all probability an extension would be required of the same size as the post office building that was built. He said there had been provision made for such expansion which would please the residents of York-Scarborough and other areas in close proximity to that centre.
I was extremely surprised to hear one comment coming from a member of the Liberal party, the members of which are invariably very profuse in extolling the virtues of the government and particularly the abilities of the ministerial section who are said to perform so wonderfully. The hon. member for York-Scarborough did admit that all was not sweetness and light and that there ought to be a closer liaison between the branches of the post office. We on this side of the house have observed that for a long time, and apparently it is just now that the government members are beginning to notice it and probably it is a little more serious than even we anticipated.
In my remarks this morning I made the mistake of referring to the Woods-Gundy report and I realize now that I should have referred to the Woods-Gordon report. This report pointed out the fact that there should be a closer liaison between the different branches in the Post Office Department and indicated that most of the savings that could be made in that department would result from doing so.
When the hon. member for York-Scarborough commenced his remarks I suspected that it was a lead-up to a question following the technique that is employed by the hon. member for Charlotte who invariably showers praise upon the government before posing his question in order that he will receive a favourable answer. I was somewhat astonished when the hon. member for York-Scarborough spoke about the salaries paid to employees of the Post Office Department. I was amazed that he would even question the government about the salaries they were paying. We have been telling the government for many years that they are underpaying the staff of the Post Office Department, which is very unfair particularly in view of the fact that they have increased postal rates and therefore the revenue has increased. It

was truly remarkable to hear such an admission from one of the government members. The hon. member even went so far as to say that employees of the post office could not live on the salaries they received. This is something of which we have been aware for a long time. We have also been endeavouring to point out to the government the plight of old age and other pensioners. If those who are receiving the inadequate salaries paid to postal employees cannot live on their income, then what must be the position of those who are in receipt of pensions? Surely old age and other pensioners must be on the verge of starvation, because what they receive does not amount to even a subsistence allowance.
On top of that, as all hon. members know, the present Postmaster General also serves as the minister of the Department of Veterans Affairs, and concerning this point strong criticism should be directed toward the government. The government is extremely fond of telling us that they have an abundance of cabinet material in their ranks and that the government is composed of members who stand head and shoulders above everyone else in this house. Nevertheless, in such a government we have a minister holding two portfolios. Probably in administering the affairs of the Department of Veterans Affairs it was discovered that the minister was suffering from ennui and had to be given something else to do, and so the government put him in charge of the Post Office Department. Someone has mentioned that he is not a superman, but on the basis of his having been given two portfolios I would think he must be the superman of supermen.
We had this morning an example of the inability of a minister to successfully conduct the affairs of two departments. The hon. member for Winnipeg North asked how many cities in this country with a population of
20,000	did not have post offices and the minister could not provide the information. In all probability if we had a full-time minister he would have that kind of information at his fingertips.
The criticism voiced by the hon. member for York-Scarborough, which was a gentle echo of the similar and much stronger criticism we on this side of the house have offered, serves to point up that period when we had a truly effective postmaster whose department operated very successfully. I am referring, of course, to Sir William Mulock, who was postmaster in 1898. His policy was to cut the rates instead of increasing them and he would show a deficit. His idea at that time was that the aim of his department was not to make a profit but

rather to provide better service to the public. In one of the publications of the department it is stated that the international mail service continues to improve, and no opportunity is lost to provide improved service to the mailing public; but one cannot help gaining the impression that the aim of the department today is to show a profit.
The goal of the Post Office Department in Sir William Mulock's day was simply to provide constantly improved service to the public, and as I pointed out he introduced cuts in the cost. As a result the service improved by leaps and bounds and his department and the service it provided were things of which he was proud. Today however the present government has seen fit to increase prices and we find that we are going backwards instead of forward and will probably drop down to the point where the department is operating at a deficit. The difference between the postmaster of that time and the present postmaster stands out very sharply. It is clearly indicated that some radical changes should be made in the department. Following the death of the previous postmaster general, the Hon. Alcide Cote, the government for some reason or other decided that the Post Office Department did not warrant the attention of a minister of the government on a full-time basis but the evidence is beginning to show there is a clear need for a full-time minister to conduct the affairs of this department. I think we should demand that the government appoint a fulltime minister for this department who could concentrate his entire attention upon it. This department is deserving of the full-time attention of some individual. It is surely too much to expect that a minister in charge of two departments should have at his fingertips detailed information concerning the departments under his jurisdiction.
Although I am not in the favoured position of the hon. member for York-Scarborough and able to secure additional services, I have not too much to complain about. I have only one small complaint and that is the removal of a substation in the area between Victoria Park avenue, which is on the westerly division of Scarborough township, and what is called Fallingbrook-Warden avenue. The department took out that substation and placed the people residing in that area at a very decided disadvantage. It is nearly a year since the substation was removed and the people have not been able to get it replaced. Probably the root of the trouble is that the department will not pay enough salary, as was mentioned by the hon. member for York-Scarborough, to induce anyone to re-establish the substation. There is considerable complaint about this and I am surprised
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it has not been rectified. The last complaint I had was in relation to Cliffside where there was no collection service, and it did not take the previous postmaster general any more than about a week to have it rectified. It is probably going to cost the department $10 a month extra to rectify this complaint and they are dubious about whether or not it is going to impair the profit position of the department in next year's report.
There is another thing that enters into this picture. Every year the department reports that land, buildings and furnishings are provided for them by the Department of Public Works. This condition has been the same for years. Then, too, in connection with the franking privilege the department has been at great pains year after year to point out that it is costing the government about $5 million-that is for this year. The department receives no return for this privilege, and points out that government departments and other agencies are using this franking privilege. Most of the people are left with the impression that it is members of parliament who use this franking privilege, whereas really it is the departments that are doing it. This is not a new condition, yet the report speaks of it as though it were something that had just cropped up. The truth is that the franking privilege has been an expense charged against this department year after year.
Since there are others who would like to speak about the improvement in services, there is one point upon which we would like to have information from the minister. I refer to the single deliveries. Before rates were increased we used to have twice a day deliveries in the municipalities throughout Canada. Upon the introduction of the new rates deliveries were cut down to one a day. At the same time the department inaugurated the eight-hour day. Notwithstanding the fact that the inauguration of the eight-hour day would cost the department considerable money, there would be some saving made through the reduction of delivery service. It has yet to be proven that there has been improved service given to the public. The department will have to prove this before they will satisfy the people of Canada that they are getting what they are paying for.
I have just about used up my time, Mr. Chairman, and since there are other speakers who would like to say something on this item I shall give way to them. I shall probably have another opportunity later to give vent to some of the criticisms I have in mind.

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Mr. Huffman:: I should like to commend
the Postmaster General, the parliamentary-assistant and the officials of the department for their very realistic approach as revealed by the minister's statement in this house this morning. It has been indicated that aproximately $11 million more in revenue is expected for 1957-58. After making that statement the minister said that there were certain improvements that were going to be inaugurated in the coming year. One recommendation was for a review of the rural mail carrier contracts. I know this is one action that will meet with general approval from everyone.
Before this session commenced, the executive of the rural mail carriers for my district called at my home one week-end. I should like to commend them as well, because when they asked for increases in their contracts they related their request to the cost of the operation of their vehicles and related the hours they worked to the hours for which a man would be paid in industry who was doing similar work. It was upon this basis they made their request of the department. I recommend to the department that full consideration be given to their request for an increase in their remuneration. I am sure that the same considerations would extend to the rural mail carriers in any part of this country.
Those who are served by mail carriers, whether they are rural or urban, feel that they are being served by a friend. No doubt this is due in part to the public relations of this department. All of us feel that the rural mail carrier or the letter carrier certainly does an excellent public service job so far as the people are concerned. Like other hon. members on both sides of this house, I should like to express the thanks and appreciation of the citizens of Wheatley, Tilbury and Chatham for the new post offices that have been erected there. These buildings were erected by the Department of Public Works at the request of the Postmaster General and his department. All of these are excellent post offices and, as the hon. member for York-Scarborough said, they are indications of growing areas and the extended services that are needed.
There is one request I should like to make, and it is this. We have many towns that are not quite large enough to qualify for letter carrier service. During the minister's statement this morning he mentioned group box service. Since our towns are expanding, I should like to ask if a town not quite large enough to qualify for letter carrier service could be considered for group box service? Many of the towns have expanded

to such an extent that when citizens have to go to the centre of the town to get their mail or post their letters it does means quite a walk and some are not able to do that. Therefore, again I would like to commend the post office officials for all that has been done in our area as well as in other localities in Canada.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few comments on the estimates of this successful and efficient publicly-owned and publicly-operated public service. I trust hon. members opposite will appreciate that statement. The minister no doubt has noticed that during the last year I have not had occasion to bother him at all, and I will give him the reason. I still think of him chiefly as the Minister of Veterans Affairs and on that account I have placed a "do not disturb" sign on his door so that he will have ample opportunity to study the Legion brief, which I know he is doing now, in an effort to decide what increase he is going to give in war veterans allowances, disability pensions, and so on.
However, having saved the minister those interruptions that might otherwise have been occasioned by the member for Kootenay West, I have had occasion to bring many inquiries and some complaints to the attention of the parliamentary assistant. I want to express my appreciation of his courtesy and of his promptitude in dealing with all matters that I have had to bring to his attention. It does not apply to all parliamentary assistants. I wrote a letter to one parliamentary assistant on January 23 and I have not received a reply yet, but I understand he will be back in a month or two.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps the post office did not give it to him.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I say this, and I say it in all fairness. I give credit to those who do a job and I am a bit ornery with those who in my opinion do not. The parliamentary assistant is a real parliamentary assistant: he assists the minister; he assists the officials; he assists the members and he assists the government when it gets into hot water. I think he performs his duties very well indeed.
I have two or three things I wish to raise at this time, but I must say the format of the report of the Postmaster General is an excellent one. It is very readable and very clear. I thought I would express my opinion in that respect because I find it very easy to read, and the information contained therein is assembled in such a way that you can get an over-all picture of the operations of the department.

Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I wish to say a few words about letter carriers. Before doing that I do want to support the remarks made by the hon. member for Winnipeg North with respect to this group's appreciation of the loyalty of the staffs of the department. That is generally recognized, although it is very apparent it is not yet recognized by the government in improvements in some of the salaries of some classes; therefore, I heartily endorse the remarks made by the hon. member for York-Scar-borough, and he may well have made a certain point, in expressing thanks to the minister, with respect to necessary increases in the salaries of some of the lower categories of the employees of the postal service. I want to mention particularly the letter carriers because I think the work of the letter carriers is very important and often receives very little recognition. I do hope the department will keep in close touch with the local situations so far as letter carriers are concerned, and I am speaking with particular knowledge of my own constituency, to make certain that their routes and their working conditions are satisfactory.
It is very necessary that senior officials check on those conditions, particularly in a country such as ours where officials living at some distance may make decisions without a clear picture of the hilliness of the routes and the grades to be tramped up and down, and so on. I know that the letter carriers in Nelson and Trail perform a very good service; but I also know that, on account of the very steep streets and the steep grades they have to climb on occasion, in some cases 200 steps at once, these problems have to be faced as local problems and not on the basis of, say, conditions that exist in Ottawa or in similar places.
I want to mention the need in our district for a mail bag between Revelstoke and Nakusp. I have mentioned it before. Various organizations have brought this to my attention and I brought their representations to the attention of the department for a number of years. Then, the district organizations suddenly thought that they would ask for a mail service from Vernon over the Monashee pass across the Arrow lakes and north to Nakusp. The department investigated the possibilities in that connection and found that it was not economic and practical. I want to congratulate the parliamentary assistant on that matter. There was a lot of support for this idea in the district, and if he had simply written me a letter to say that the department does not consider that a satisfactory arrangement could be made for such a route there would
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have been a great deal of protest and misunderstanding; but the parliamentary assistant did what I think is an excellent thing. He wrote me quite a lengthy letter and explained all the economic factors concerned as well as the physical factors and the circumstances surrounding and pointed out why it was not practical for the department to institute that proposed mail route. I made certain that that letter became public information, and the department's decision has been accepted with good nature and good will because there is always a majority of sensible people in any district who, when the facts are presented to them, recognize them. I think that is a very good practice indeed. However, that brings us back to the necessity of a mail route, or at least the transportation of a mail bag between Revelstoke and Nakusp. We think it is required and justified. Millions of dollars' worth of production is going on on the upper and lower Arrow lakes and a great deal of expansion in the lumber, logging and timber industries. It so happens that our provincial government offices for many purposes are established in Revelstoke. As I have said before, if we want to mail a letter to the lands office or to the office dealing with water rights, and things of that sort, it has to go 100 miles south to Nelson, then over the Kettle valley route to Calgary and back from Calgary to Revelstoke, and the answer has to take a similar route in the reverse direction. That is a considerable handicap to carrying on business satisfactorily in the district, and I do urge the department to give further consideration to this request.
There is a steamer, the S.S. Lardeau, which is operated by the provincial government and which runs between Arrow Head and Nakusp daily with the exception of Tuesdays. Tuesdays are reserved for explosives, gasoline and fuel for lumber equipment and things of that sort, although I do not know whether they would carry mail on those days as well. It is up to the department; but anyway, mail can be carried without any question on five days in the week. There is a bus which runs daily from Revelstoke to Arrow Head and meets the steamer every morning at eight o'clock. It is a passenger bus. Therefore, I cannot see where there would be a great deal of expense in having a bag of mail put on the bus at Revelstoke, put on the steamer and then taken off at Nakusp. Any mail for the district south of Nakusp could be distributed by the Nakusp post office and, of course, by the mail contractor who serves the district between Nakusp and Edgewood. I do urge further consideration

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of that request because the present situation is causing a lot of inconvenience to business in the area.
Now, I just wish to say a word or two about stamps. I cannot resist looking at stamps and I notice that the department has recently issued some stamps which depict certain popular sports in Canada. One was published last year dealing with hockey and I think it was an excellent stamp. I hold in my hand four more, one dealing with, I am not sure whether it is fishing or canoeing. As a matter of fact, the stamp would indicate neither. There is one on swimming, one on hunting and one on skiing. The stamps the department issued to commemorate the late Sir Robert Borden and the late Lord Bennett are excellent. I think most of the stamps which deal with persons are excellent. When it comes to subjects of this type the stamps seem to be formal and they seem almost early Victorian so far as the engraving is concerned. I understand that these stamps are issued with the idea of illustrating popular sports in Canada. I think it would be better if the department said they were symbolic of popular sports in Canada and then left the rest to a person's imagination. I have four questions I should like to have the minister answer.
Has he ever seen anyone in Canada paddling a canoe and fishing in the manner shown on the stamp indicating a fishing expedition?
Has he ever seen any female swimming in Canada in the attitude indicated on this stamp and in water with waves of this regular nature?
Has he ever seen anyone shoot at a bird in this fashion, with a bird dog pointing as indicated?
Has he ever seen anyone skiing on a hill with a 45 per cent slope holding one pole on the snow and the other one in the air?
I do not think these stamps truly illustrate popular sports in Canada. As I say, they may be symbolic of popular sports in Canada and there may be much more in the stamps than we see on the surface.
Having said that, may I say now that this is the centenary of the death of David Thompson, who died in 1857. He was the first white man to visit the Kootenay country and I think he was the first white man to realize its great beauty, its natural resources and its possibilities. This centenary is being celebrated this year by British Columbia as a whole and more particularly by the residents of east and west Kootenay districts, the majority of whom I have the honour to represent.
[Mr. Herridge.l
We all know that David Thompson was one of Canada's greatest explorers, one of its great naturalists, and without doubt its greatest geographer. I am sure that if the department can immortalize a billy goat it should be quite willing to immortalize David Thompson by the issuance of a stamp. I was pleased to discover less than ten minutes ago that the department proposes to issue a commemorative stamp this year to commemorate the anniversary of this great Canadian. I know a great number of people in British Columbia will be pleased. Those who are particularly interested in history, members of historical associations and bodies of that sort, and others who take a particular interest in the intangibles of life will be pleased to know that the department is about to issue this stamp.
These are all the remarks I wish to make at this time, but I do want the minister to answer me fully on the stamp question when he replies.


Mr. Mclvor:: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that it is the duty of the opposition to criticize the government or to show where the government might improve its service. I am not contending that the Postmaster General and his officials are absolutely perfect, because they are human beings; but it has been my experience that I receive replies to my letters from the Post Office Department by return mail. I have had two outstanding experiences with the post office this past year.
A man took a contract for the carrying of mail to and from the C.N.R. and the C.P.R. stations. It was found later that he was getting no more than a labourer's wages. All I had to do was to write to the director of operations and now that mail carrier in Fort William is well satisfied with the result.
The C.P.R. changed its rail services west of Fort William with the result that country towns along that line were not getting their mail once a day. I did what I thought I should do and I expect that that matter will be cleaned up.
There is just one thing I would like the minister to do. Retired mail carriers still belong to the big family of the post office and I would like the minister to support the Minister of Finance in having the pensions of these retired letter carriers brought up to what they ought to be. I hope to be speaking on this matter on Monday. I know one man who was played out after carrying the mails for 35 years. His pension was so small that he had to do without many comforts. Today he and his wife are living on $83 a month. My main reason in rising at this time is to ask the Postmaster General to take care of the older members of his family and see that they get a living pension.


Mr. Lennard:: Mr. Chairman, in rising to take part in this mutual admiration debate that is taking place this afternoon, I do so to make just one suggestion and that is that when the department institutes a new letter carrier service it should not do it in the late fall, as was done in the Aldershot-Burlington district in Ontario. This created a great deal of confusion and dissatisfaction. The change occurred just about the time of the heavy Christmas rush and many cards and other pieces of mail were never delivered. They were returned because the recipients could not be found and that created hardship in many cases for people who normally received Christmas cards from friends and relatives. I hope the department will pay some attention to this suggestion because this is not the time to institute a service of that kind.


Mr. Hahn:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with those who have extended complimentary remarks to the Postmaster General, the parliamentary assistant and the officials of the department. I want to say that I have received excellent cooperation in connection with responses to any communications I have addressed to the department, or in connection with any problems I have brought to the attention of the department. We may not always have seen eye to eye, but we generally reached a point of discussion where each party knew where they stood.
The hon. member for York-Scarborough has indicated a problem which exists in many fast-growing ridings. The population increase in my riding has been well over
20,000	and this has necessitated setting up many new letter carrier routes. There has been the accompanying problem of obtaining the necessary letter carriers. In many cases the number of households requiring service has increased from 330 or 350, as the case may be, to well over 500 in a short period of time, sometimes within weeks. The result has been that letter carriers have been overburdened and overtaxed with the mail they had to deliver and it has been practically impossible to keep up with the time.
However, part of the difficulty was well described by the hon. member for York-Scarborough when he suggested that the salaries were not quite in keeping with those paid to workers in other industries in Canada. In this connection I recall an instance last Christmas when we had all this additional help. At that time the men who took over the routes decided that the job was just too trying. Most people do not realize how difficult the task of a letter carrier is-getting around to the various homes and having to
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combat not only the elements, but dogs and irate householders as well. We had occasion to find that in some instances the mail was not delivered on certain routes. That was not the fault of the officials; it was because of the fact that the salaries offered were not in keeping with the rates paid outside this employment, with the result that it was not possible to get men who were prepared to do that work during the Christmas rush.
All in all, we found that the mail was well taken care of. There was, however, a recent incident, which I drew to the minister's attention in the house the other day, with respect to the delivery of mail in the Fraser valley following a slide of some kind in the mountains as a result of which mail was not delivered for a day. I expect that possibly the minister has more information on this matter, and that he may give to me either privately or in the house itself at some later time.
I would like to know what means are provided to take care of the mail when the truck bringing it is held up at Mount Hope with the result that many thousands of people in the lower reaches of the Fraser valley are not served. That is one of the things we must provide for.
However, I would say that apart from this the service has been excellent. It is true that within the last day or so I have had certain matters drawn to my attention which require, I think, some consideration not only on a local basis but, perhaps, on a broader scale. The first concerns the New Westminster post office. I have written to the minister about this, but I know he has not had time to answer my letter because I only wrote it yesterday, not realizing that his estimates were being considered today. However, in his reply, he may be able to answer the inquiries of many of us concerning the fact that the opening of the mail receptacle for parcels at that new post office measures only eight inches by ten inches. If this is the regular custom, and is incorporated into the architectural structure of post offices by the Department of Public Works, I would not complain, but I find there are many merchants in that area, particulrly those who sell men's and ladies' wear, who know the postage rate charged on suits and dresses, or whatever it may be, when packed in the cartons they regularly use. These people find, on going to the post office after hours-and their mail is usually sent out after hours- that the opening in the parcels box is too small for these particular parcels, with the result that they must make a special trip to the post office the following day in order to mail them out. I am wondering whether

Supply-Post Office it could not be arranged, possibly, to construct another opening of larger size in another part of the building, especially since construction of the second half of this post office has only just begun.
There is another question of a local nature which I would like to draw to the minister's attention because the present position seems to be unsatisfactory. It is with respect to the inclusion of the South Westminster post office in the greater metropolitan area. If I might make a comparison, taking the city of Ottawa as an example, I would say that that section of the city on the other side of the railway 'line of the Bank street bridge crossing the Rideau canal might be represented as the South Westminster area. That area is, of course, included in the Ottawa area. In my own area South Westminster post office is right in the centre of a district which enjoys a four-cent letter rate, but because South Westminster has a separate post office, though a small one, they have to buy a five-cent stamp. Householders all about the area get mail coming to them from Vancouver and the surrounding districts on the four-cent rate; even rural routes send mail to them on the four-cent rate, but they have to pay one cent more because they are not included in the metropolitan area. I think that situation deserves study, and when the minister becomes familiar with the picture I have outlined I am sure something will be done about it.
The hon. member for Kootenay West, in the fine manner in which he usually presents his material, drew attention to the need for a stamp to celebrate the centenary, suggesting that it should be symbolic rather than a true picture. I do not disagree with him at all, but in respect to the gentleman on skis leaning at a 45-degree angle I may say that I am sure he has not seen me ski or he would have seen me in many more awkward positions than that.
However, I would suggest that in considering a proper stamp for the centenary in British Columbia, consideration might be given to having one which would depict the newly-selected floral emblem of our province, the dogwood. Certainly, we are very proud and happy to have an official floral emblem, and I think it would show up beautifully on any one of these stamps and would be something very desirable so far as the centenary is concerned.
Before I sit down there is another question which I do not wish to discuss at any length at this time, but which I might just mention. It has been drawn to the attention of the house already by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam. I would simply ask the


minister to make some statement of the position of the parcel post carriers in the metropolitan area, particularly as they are included in the New Westminster area.


Mr. MacKenzie:: I do not know whether I had better join in with the other hon. members in promoting this mutual admiration society for the postal service throughout Canada.
It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, strange that practically all who have spoken so far have been telling in no uncertain way of the great public service which the Post Office Department is giving to the citizens of this country. I only wish to join in that tribute. As some hon. members have already pointed out, in the the majority of cases the Department of Public Works provides the premises which the post office occupies. I think that is true of all post offices where revenue exceeds $3,000 a year. I think it is generally conceded that if you can demonstrate to the Department of Public Works the need of better postal accommodation and the Post Office Department approves you can be sure that your request for better postal accommodation will receive every consideration. I think that is very commendable indeed in government departments.
A few years ago the Post Office Act was amended so that rural mail carriers' contracts could be reviewed and adjustments in pay recommended and given without calling for public tenders. When that change was first brought up in the house there was a great deal of concern, particularly among opposition members, that this might develop into political patronage and there would be political abuses in that regard. I think it is pretty well agreed that has not taken place.
Rural mail carriers' contracts are four year contracts and costs of operation have changed so drastically from time to time that if carriers had four year contracts that could not be reviewed the result would be that toward the end of the four years they would be operating at a great loss. The department has made adjustments from time to time that have proven most satisfactory.
There has been considerable discussion this afternoon about the commemorative stamps produced by the Post Office Department, and there is something I wish to bring to the attention of the minister and his officials. I have done so previously through correspondence. Almost one hundred years ago oil was first discovered on the North American continent in the county of Lambton near a small town called Oil Springs almost in the centre of Lambton county. I think this fact has been pretty well accepted by research people in the United States and Canada.

The Canadian Oil Company has purchased the property where oil was first discovered and is planning to erect a museum there in commemoration of the discovery. I suggest to the Post Office Department that no better way could be found to bring this historic event to the attention of Canadians than to produce a commemorative stamp in honour of the first discovery of oil 100 years ago. I believe a centennial celebration is to be held there next year, and I again urge the Post Office Department to give every consideration to the production of a commemorative stamp for next year.


Mr. Murphy (Lambion West):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take a couple of minutes of the time of the committee. I am not going to go into any detail but I have received some complaints about very slow delivery of mail sent from Sarnia to Toronto and even within Sarnia itself. However, we cannot expect perfection and I am sure the departmental officials will do everything they possibly can to see that the most efficient mail delivery service possible is made available to the people of Canada. They have a right to expect that and I think it is only fair to make that statement.
I have had complaints from people in Sarnia that they have mailed letters for delivery in Sarnia and that it has taken more than the usual length of time for delivery, but it may have been just one of those things that happen. I am not going to condemn the minister severely for that because, as I say, you cannot expect perfection. As I am sure the minister knows, within recent years Sarnia has taken in a great deal of property surrounding the old city of Sarnia, and I am going to ask the minister to tell us when he replies whether all the city of Sarnia is covered by mail delivery.
I am very glad that the hon. member for Lambton-Kent has spoken regarding the desirability of having a commemorative stamp to celebrate a very important event not only for Canada but for this continent. As he has so ably said, the Canadian Oil Company, which, incidentally, is the only oil company solely owned in Canada, had its start at Petrolia in the riding of the hon. member for Lambton-Kent. It so happens that we each represent part of Lambton county and, as the minister and many of his staff no doubt know, there has been considerable controversy between the authorities in our country and those in the United States regarding where oil was first discovered on this continent. I know the hon. member for Lambton-Kent will agree with me that the research that has been undertaken establishes beyond the shadow of a doubt that the first discovery of oil on this
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continent was in the riding of the member for Lambton-Kent, and as he represents part of Lambton and I represent the other part we want to make it a Lambton affair instead of more or less a local affair.
I am sure the minister will appreciate, as does every member of the house, what the oil industry means to Canada and to the world at large. I am not going to say anything about the stamps that have been created in the past. There is a reason for all these things. But I do urge with all sincerity that in view of the importance of the oil industry, not only to Canada and the United States but to the world in general, we take this opportunity not only to recognize the importance of the oil industry but also to let it be known that it is the view of Canadians as the result of intensive research that oil was first discovered on this continent m the riding of the member for Lambton-Kent near a little place called Oil Springs.
I have in my hand a resolution from the Sarnia city council. I am sure the member for Lambton-Kent has the same resolution. I also have many more from each municipality within the county of Lambton. It is not our intention to take up a great deal of time or to bother the minister with a hundred and one resolutions. I hope the representations that the member for Lambton-Kent and I have made today will be sufficient, so that Canada will be recognized by this commemorative stamp as being the first country on this continent where oil was discovered I hope the minister will take this into consideration.
(Translation):


Mr. Valois:: Supply-Post Office
gives a population of 21,048 for the constituency of Two Mountains. In 1956, the figures were 26,595, an increase of 5,547 or of more than 25 per cent. Now 95 per cent of that increase has precisely taken place in the St. Eustache and St. Eustache sur le Lac districts which have become, in effect, suburbs of Montreal. Mail delivery service there has already proven inadequate and I feel that, even if some improvements were considered, to take care of the situation and which might eventually answer the needs of the present population, very soon, perhaps within a year, they would prove definitely inadequate, because of the rate of increase of the population. Very soon we might have to reassess the problem and look for another solution. It is for that reason that in that area where we have, in round figures, approximately 3,000 householders, I believe that the department would be justified in providing for a letter carrier service. This, as I have already pointed out, would be justified by the increase in the population and the fact that at St. Eustache sur le Lac mail delivery service has become increasingly necessary.
If for instance a new post office building were built, that solution would nevertheless be but a temporary one. I feel that the department would be justified in providing letter carrier service in those places where the population is rapidly increasing and where there is expansion. I really do believe that the department should do so and it is because of that fact that I commend that request to the attention of the Postmaster General.
(Text):


Mr. Gillis:: Mr. Chairman, I want to jog
the minister's memory on a couple of matters concerning which I would like a reply when he is answering the general questions which have been raised.
I would like to inquire from the minister if the department has come to a decision in the matter of establishing a letter carrier service in the town of New Waterford. This has been the subject of correspondence between the department and myself during the last two years. The last I heard of it officially was that a survey was to be taken and that within the near future the department would make a decision. I hope when the minister is answering questions he will officially inform us as to what progress has been made. Of course if any arguments are necessary with respect to revenue and the population arid so forth, I am prepared to advance them. If it is not necessary for me to do so, then I can simply say that we will

be thankful and will govern ourselves accordingly.
Another matter which has been brought to my attention by branch 55 of the Canadian Legion, but which has nothing to do with Legiori affairs, relates to the establishment of proper facilities by way of a post office building in the town of Port Morien on the west side of Cape Breton island in Nova Scotia.
I have looked at the existing building a couple of times myself, and it leaves much to be desired. Representations have been made in the past with regard to improving it. Although the town is not large, with a population of perhaps between 3,000 arid 4,000 people, it is an historic town. It marks the site of the first coal mining that was done in North America. The French operated a coal mine there in 1720. Of course mining has petered out, but the basis was laid there by the French in 1720 for an international coal mining industry that now extends throughout Canada and the United States.
The town is maintained today by a well established fishing industry. There are good facilities including a small lobster factory and a small fish processing plant, and it has been slowly expanding. It has successfully swung over from a mining town into a town based on what I think can be developed into a progressive and lucrative industry dealing with the products of the sea. The request that has been made from time to time for the establishment of a public building there in the form of a post office is I think a legitimate request, because the building is necessary. It would not have to be an elaborate building, but I believe it should be one that would accommodate mail services anticipating an increase in the population there based on the expanding fishing industry. Perhaps the population will be doubled in the next teri years.
The minister is aware that the Legion is conservative and is not a demanding organization. Before recommending a project or voicing a request they invariably are absolutely certain it has merit. I simply wanted to let him know that I was calling a very good witness with respect to the desirability and the necessity of this building in referring to the request of branch 55 of the Legiori on this particular point. I shall be interested in hearing the minister's reply.


Mr. Brooks:: Supply-Post Office
The people in the country districts must receive mail if they are to be contented. They should get their daily paper and their daily mail. I do not think there is much more I wish to say. In general, I have been quite well satisfied with the courtesy I have always received from the Post Office Department. I listened with interest to some of the members recommend subjects for stamps. I noticed that most of these recommendations came from British Columbia. In the newspaper the other day I did see mention of a new Canadian stamp on which there was a reproduction of a totem pole.


Mr. Sinclair:: It was a coin.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It was a coin, was it?


James Sinclair: Yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Well, British Columbia gets everything. Now they want a stamp decorated with something from British Columbia. There are other parts of Canada besides British Columbia, much as we think of British Columbia. I was just speaking to my good friend the hon. member for Cape Breton South, who reminded me that last year his constituency celebrated the centenary of Alexander Graham Bell, one of the world's greatest scientists. I would think if the department wanted to issue a memorial stamp to this outstanding citizen-


Hugues Lapointe: That has been done already.


James Sinclair: We are ahead of you.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I am glad to hear that. These are things that should appeal to the minister and to the people of Canada.
I noticed what the hon. member for Red Deer had to say about his experience, and that has been my experience, too. He said whenever a new rural route was established in his district or better service was given his opponent, the defeated Liberal candidate, got all the credit. I have had the same experience. I have noticed also that when there is no improvement they say, look at that member you have; he is not much good. He could not get it for you. It seems they try to make it work both ways. I have noticed also that this does not apply only to the Post Office Department; it applies to most of the other departments. We know how politics are played in this country and I am not complaining too much about that.
I have nothing further to say. I do hope every consideration will be given to the rural areas and that, with all the requests from the urban areas, the rural areas will be kept in mind.
(Translation):


Mr. Deschateleis:: Mr. Chairman, I cannot remember hearing such unanimous praise

from every political party represented in this house, while attending a discussion of departmental estimates. I must say that this praise is the more deserved because the Post Office Department is certainly one of the more difficult to administer, and I am pleased to join all those who congratulated the department and its officials for the outstanding service given our citizenry by the Post Office Department.
I should like to take this opportunity to remind the hon. Postmaster General (Mr. Lapointe) of something I have asked his department to consider since 1954, that is the construction of a new post office in Rose-mont. This district of the city of Montreal has had an extraordinary development, and I know that the department officials are well aware of the need for a new post office there.
I fully realize that before a decision can be taken on a matter involving considerable expenditure, several factors have to be considered, because one must not think only of the present but also of the future. Consideration must also be given to the direction in which the city is developing, but I urge the department to continue its consideration of the request I have made. However, I shall not insist upon having that post office before the next elections. I am a Liberal, and far be it from me to speculate on such a matter in view of the coming elections. I simply wish to point out the importance of my request and say that, as soon as a decision is made on this matter, the thousands of electors in my constituency will be quite happy.
I now wish to make a few comments on the officers of the Post Office Department in Montreal, especially about the postmaster, who in all circumstances, has shown not only ability but also unfailing kindness.
Obviously, it should not be assumed that we have no complaint. It is a department which bears on all the different aspects of our lives, and it is only natural that we should get complaints once in a while. As a matter of fact, these complaints have given us the opportunity to find out how the officers of the Post Office Department in Montreal- more particularly the postmaster and his colleagues-are conscious of their responsibilities because they have always thoroughly investigated these complaints and removed the cause to the satisfaction of all concerned.
I thought I had to pay them that tribute today. They are able men, and if all parties in this house pay tribute today to the employees of the Post Office Department throughout Canada, it is not only because these employees have done a good job but also because they have been fair to all.

That is the tribute, Mr. Chairman, that I wanted to pay these officers.
(Text):


Mr. Jones:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take this opportunity to make two suggestions to the department. On the whole today the service to the Okanagan valley is quite good, especially when you compare it with what it was two or there years ago, but I would suggest that still better service could be given that would satisfy practically all our people if more use were made of the planes from Penticton north. The delay is usually with the plane run to Penticton from Vancouver. The service from there north is pretty good, but it could be improved if more use were made of the available planes that already fly north from Penticton.
The suggestion I should like to make is really in connection with Summerland. This matter has been outstanding for years and years. Nothing has been done, and I am satisfied that nothing will be done or can be done unless the district director of postal services is directed, not asked, to meet with the principal representative bodies of the two areas, both Summerland and West Summer-land. I suggest that the board of trade, the municipal council, and so on, should be called in to thresh this thing out and come to an amicable solution so the people of this area will get decent service. Today if you address a letter to Summerland and it is meant for West Summerland there is a 24-hour delay, though it is only a few hundred yards away, because of the manner in which the postal areas are divided.
I think the municipal council and the board of trade have a solution, but the district director thinks he has another one. I believe the people who live there and who have to enjoy or suffer under this service know best. I would suggest that this man be instructed to meet with these groups and thresh out the problem that has been with them for many years. Unfortunately the municipality of West Summerland is a small area surrounded by Summerland proper, but the population lives in that small area and there is confusion once you start sending mail to people still in Summerland but on the outskirts of that municipal area. I think the problem could be solved, and I hope the minister will give instructions that an effort be made as quickly as possible to solve it.


Mr. Cardiff:: Mr. Chairman, a little change was made in the mail service in my riding 82715-1144
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last year. The post office decided they were going to truck the mail up in that end of the country, and it was taken off the trains. At that time we tried our best to persuade them to leave it the way it was, but the Post Office Department claimed that the railway had given them notice that no more mail would be carried on the trains. I went to the Post Office Department about it, but they said it was out of their hands and that they had to find some other way of transporting the mail. Trucks were hired, and the mail in that section of the country is now delivered by truck.
I know as well as the Post Office Department knows what the answer is going to be in about another hour. Nothing has been done yet and it is no use to holler before we are hurt. The inference is simply this. They intended to take off some of the train services. As long as the mail was carried on the trains they could not do it very graciously, so they took another way around.
I want to tell them that the service is not any better because we are getting delivery by truck. As a matter of fact, in my own case there have been two or three instances when it took two or three days to get a letter from one side of the county to the other. That has not always happened; in the same period I have had letters from the same place in 24 hours. I do not know whose fault it is; it could be a slip on somebody's part. I would not blame it entirely on the Post Office Department; it is just one of those things that happen, and we are not very well satisfied with it. We were not very well satisfied with the trucks delivering the mail.
I would like to say a word about the rural mail carriers. I am in full agreement with the Post Office Department that these men should have salary increases. For some years many of these fellows have worked very hard and have received very little remuneration for their work. That was not altogether the fault of the Post Office Department; it was the fault of the applicant who bid too low in the first place, who got the contract and then found he could not make any money. The Post Office Department came to his rescue and, as is very often done, raised the rate of remuneration. I see now that the rates are going to be raised again.
I see nothing wrong with that, as I believe a man should be worthy of his hire. The mail carrier is a little better class of man than the ordinary rank and file. He must be honest, he must have a certain amount of prestige, he must have backers so that if he does go off the deep end there will be some way of getting back at him. He is a little better calibre of man than the ordinary

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worker, and for that reason he deserves better wages. Therefore I am in agreement with increasing their remuneration.
Something was said about abuses of the franking privilege. I believe this does take place, though I am not one of those who are guilty. There is a lot of franking done that should not be allowed, and this is not confined to any one part of the house. It is necessary that we have franking privileges because we do not make anything from the mail we send out. It is a privilege I enjoy and I do not abuse it, and I do not think anyone else should.
I should like to ask the minister two or three questions. I was one of those who did not think it was necessary to raise the postage rate from 4 to 5 cents, and I should like the minister to tell us what revenue was obtained by the Post Office Department because of that increase. 1 should like the minister to tell the committee if any money was advanced by the Post Office Department to other departments of government at the end of the fiscal year. If so, will he indicate to what departments, and the amounts in each case?


Mr. McLeod:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few general remarks with regard to the estimates before us. I am glad to see that the department is showing a comfortable margin of profit on its operations. I am one of those who believe it should stand on its own feet, and that the returns from the service provided for the people should take care of the cost of operation. I have been looking over the list of employees, and I note that the largest increase is in city and rural mail carriers. This is as it should be, because with our growing population not only our suburban dwellers but our rural dwellers as well should be provided with adequate mail service.
Another thing I noted in going over the general estimates is that there are still a large number of employees who are pitiably underpaid. Before any consideration is given tb reducing the postal rates, which some people seem to think are too high, consideration should be given to increasing the salaries of the lower paid employees, especially those receiving under $3,600.
I should like to make a few remarks about the service in my own district. First, I back up wholeheartedly the remarks of the hon. member for Okanagan Boundary, who has asked that consideration be given to providing air transportation of mail from Penticton north. I know that this is being talked of and is something that may not come into being in the immediate future, but I ask the officials to keep their eyes on the matter.

I am not too well acquainted with the situation at Summerland, but I have heard complaints from people in the northern part of the Okanagan valley about the mail service they are receiving. I would stress, as did the hon. member for Okanagan Boundary, that these matters should receive special consideration.
Looking back over the four years I have been here I must say that I have been pleased with the reception I have received at all times from the officials of the Post Office Department. I have had some complaints, and where necessary I have taken them to the deputy minister. I have never yet found myself forced to go to the minister. I believe in working on these things from the bottom up. A great number of the complaints were solved after they had been placed before the district superintendent. Right here let me say that the setting up of district superintendents is one of the finest things the department has done in the way of streamlining the service or providing liaison between the users of the mails and the Post Office Department. Mr. Stanley, the representative at Kamloops, is doing a wonderful job. He is on the spot, and any complaints that arise are given careful and serious consideration. They are talked over and as a rule are settled on the spot.
During the past four years new post offices have been opened in Enderby, Sicamous and Lurnby, and of course there is the new federal building in Vernon which is still under construction. I am sorry to learn that weather conditions in the Okanagan have not been quite as good this year as we usually expect, and there has been some slow-down. However, it is anticipated that this building will be completed before cold weather comes around again, and then our post office will be housed in one of the finest buildings in the interior of the province. I might mention that I was present last summer when the Minister of Fisheries so well and truly laid the cornerstone of this fine building.
We have had some troubles in the area, but they have not been serious and they have been pretty well ironed out. Many of the complaints were caused by the confusion created by a new mail delivery service put into effect in the area. When the rail service over the branch line from Sicamous down through the valley was discontinued, arrangements were made to carry the mail by truck from Kamloops. There was nothing wrong with the truck service, but at times the users of the postal service were greatly dissatisfied when the truck driver was not able to get the mail to the appointed places on schedule. Quite often they did not take into account

the fact that even the train had been held up by slides or other conditions beyond its control.
I am glad to note that another improvement for which we have asked repeatedly has been brought about. This was talked over with Mr. Stanley, the superintendent of the area, and was finally put into operation. I refer to the combined plane and train service from Vancouver to Penticton. Now mail for the interior, instead of coming from Kamloops, comes to Penticton and then is delivered northward to the main points in the district, from which points the local carriers make their deliveries in trucks.
During the past few years I have noted an increase in rural deliveries. We do not have daily service such as is provided in many districts, but taking it by and large I am satisfied that the people in the riding I represent are getting fairly good service. In the more thickly populated parts of the province rural deliveries are on a daily basis, and we cannot hope for anything more than that.
I cannot speak too highly of the co-operation we have received. There are still two or three things which we must iron out. One of the things that is causing dissatisfaction at the present time is that although a certain part of an area adjacent to Vernon has its own post office, and a very good post office too, the rural carriers are working out of Lumby, while at the present time a large part of that district is served by a route from Vernon. I do not think that is fair to the business people of Lumby, and I am looking forward to the time when that will be changed.
We cannot expect to have foolproof results from the Post Office Department, of course, any more than we can expect to obtain them from any department in which the human element plays such a large part. There are cases, of course, where letters are not delivered as promptly as we think they should be, but on the other hand there is usually some good reason for non-delivery, and we must admit that sometimes it might be due to the carelessness of a local employee which cannot be provided for.
There is one other thing I would like to mention. Despite the improvements in the greater part of our district we still have a little problem in the east end. We are not too far from Revelstoke or even from Sica-mous, but we are cut off from them, and letters have to travel hundreds of miles under the present arrangements in order to reach a town which may be only 25 miles away. I do not know what the solution would be, but it is not a big problem, and looking at the picture generally I recognize that we
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must, of course, always consider the service given to the greatest number. However, there is a little problem there which I think we can continue to work on, and I am sure we shall be able to find a solution without bringing it up before the minister in charge of this department.
In concluding I join with those who have commended the service and co-operation we have received and are receiving, and say we are satisfied that action is being taken to improve the services the post office is giving, and that we are satisfied it is the policy of the department to try to continue to improve that service.


Mr. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace):: Mr. Chairman, there are a number of questions I would like to ask the minister subsequently, in order that he might reply to them together with other points which have been raised in this discussion, but I would like to make a few general remarks first.
The minister has heard, and rightly so, praise and commendation from all parts of the house this afternoon for certain aspects of the operations of his department, and more specifically for the efforts put forward by the mass of the employees in the Post Office Department whose number totals, if I remember rightly, some 50,000. That is as it should be. These are hard-working, conscientious people who are giving devoted service to their country. They are handling nearly four billion pieces of mail a year, and I join with other hon. members in commending them for their devotion and hard work.
Let me say this, Mr. Chairman. I hope the Postmaster General will not be led by that into rising subsequently and saying, "You have said so many nice things about my employees that those of you who have made certain critical observations are just unreasonable, carping critics who are contradicting themselves and contradicting other people within the party." Praise for the staff of the Post Office Department and for their efforts does not necessarily include praise for the policies of the department, the expenditures of the department or certain of its actions, and I think that point should be made so we do not have any misunderstanding.
For example, the devotion of the employees of the department is on a full-time basis, and I want to express my regret that a similar practice is not followed by the Postmaster General who, whatever his love for the department may be, finds it necessary to divide his time between two departments. When you are doing a part-time job you cannot be as effective and as efficient as if you are doing a full-time job, and we have reached the point at which the Postmaster

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General is without knowledge of what is going on in his own department. I will give only one example, Mr. Chairman, because time is getting short.
I want to point out something that happened here in this house during the last month. On Wednesday, January 23 of this year we find in the Ottawa Journal on the front page a subheading saying, "Twice a Day Mail Delivery Also Being Envisaged." Together with that is the statement:
The government Is considering the restoration of twice a day mail delivery. . . .
And underneath are the words:
Prime Minister St. Laurent today made these disclosures.
There follow some other words which do not affect what I have read. Later on-and I mention this in passing-the Prime Minister is reported in these words:
While he thought the Canadian was some better than the U.S. mail delivery service, there remained ample room for improvement.
So the restoration of two a day delivery was now under consideration.
Then we turn to Hansard for February 6, which is about two weeks later, where we find the hon. member for Peterborough saying at page 1017:
Has any further consideration been given to renewing the twice a day mail delivery ... as was formerly the practice?
Then there are a few more words which do not alter the sense. The Postmaster General replied, "No, Mr. Speaker." Later I asked the Prime Minister a supplementary question, and the Prime Minister again confirmed his previous statement to the press by saying that consideration was being given to the costs that would be involved in respect to a twice a day mail delivery. So I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that it would be an excellent thing if we had a full-time postmaster, one who would keep abreast of the major policy developments in his department which are under discussion at cabinet level.
Having said that, I would like to refer to certain observations which the Postmaster General made in the course of his opening statement earlier today. First of all, there is certain information which causes us to consider seriously whether letter carriers are not just being given a heavier and heavier load of households to cover all the time.
Earlier this afternoon an hon. member spoke in terms of 350 houses on a given route. In the estimates committee last year the information was given that the average is 500 households to a route. At that time it was suggested that there would be some variation between 400 and 600, but that

certainly if the figure went over that there was ample cause for investigation and consideration. In his statement today the Postmaster General pointed out that 217 new routes had been established, and he told us that the actual increase in the number of households served was some 288,633. If we take the 217 new routes established and an average of 500 households per route that produces over 103,500 households and leaves the remainder of the increase, 288,633 less 103,500, to be spread over the existing number of letter carriers. In other words, by doing quick addition we find that some 185,000 additional households are being served by the existing number of letter carriers.
Someone may come back at me and say oh yes, but we are splitting these routes and adding new letter carriers. Before that observation is made I would point out that the estimates of the department for 1956-57, the same period to which my previous figures refer, provide for an increase in the number of letter carriers from 4,445 to 4,659, which is within about 10 of the number of new routes that have been established.
There is no doubt whatsoever from the evidence before us that the letter carriers are being asked more and more to handle heavier burdens. I need only say that in the city of Montreal right now there are routes running between 800 and 900 households. I think that is a conservative figure. I have heard some people complain of as many as 1,100, but I find it quite impossible to accept that figure. Certainly there are many routes in excess of the average, and that applies right across the country. I think there should be some explanation of what is happening in that regard.
I now turn to another piece of information in the minister's statement. He referred to the universal postal union which is to meet here in August of this year, I believe. I agree with him that it is a signal honour for Canada that the meeting should be held here, and I think we will all welcome the 350 delegates who are coming to the meeting. But, Mr. Chairman, welcome as they are, much as we want them to enjoy themselves, is it necessary for us to expend $250,000 of the public's money in order to provide facilities for the convention? That works out to $800 a delegate. In addition, last year $25,000 was spent in preparing for it, and previously there had been a few thousand odd dollars. That works out to more than $800 for every one of the 350 delegates.
I do not think there is a person in the house who has been to a convention, certainly no one who has run one, who knows of a Canadian convention which operates

on the basis of putting up expenses averaging $800 per person or a total, as I have said, of $250,000. Let us remember that these people are paying their own travelling expenses and are looking after themselves while here. This amount is for convention facilities. It is the grandest, most expensive welcome and the most expensive convention I have ever heard of. I do not quite know on what the money is going to be spent, but I hope we will have a very detailed explanation from the minister by the time he is through.


An hon. Member:: Maybe they are going across the river to Hull.


William McLean Hamilton: Someone suggests they may be going across the river to Hull. I know that things are somewhat more expensive in the province of Quebec, but unless a special hotel is going to be built for them with gold-plated fixtures I find it difficult to imagine on what the money is going to be spent. I hope the minister will have an explanation.
I turn now for a moment to the question of twice a day mail service. Let me say immediately that there is no quarrel with the rural areas in their demand for a minimum delivery once a day, nor is there any doubt in the mind of any of us, I think, that certain areas now on rural routes or on box systems are entitled to twice a day delivery. The point I would make is that the elimination of twice a day mail delivery service has caused and is continuing to cause considerable distress and inconvenience in our metropolitan areas that are now served by letter carrier service.' The costs were worked out in detail and presented to the estimates committee last year. They represented approximately one-third of the surplus of the Post Office Department for the year 1955-56, and they will represent less than one-half of the estimated surplus of the Post Office Department for the current year. In other words, we could change to twice a day delivery service, five days a week, and still leave the Post Office Department with a substantial surplus. When the minister replies I hope he will tell us what the situation is with regard to the resumption of twice a day mail delivery.
I point out to the minister that in some respects his department is very slow administratively. For example, let me take the Christmas overtime payments. Remember that Christmas came as always on the 25th of December. We have reached the first of March, and if the employees in the Montreal area have received their Christmas overtime remuneration certainly it has only been within the last few days because prior
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to that, whatever the reason may be, the money had not been disbursed to a great many of the employees.
Furthermore, I think it is unfortunate that the Post Office Department seems inclined to take a chance and break other rules and regulations of the government. We all know there is a requirement that salaried employees be advised by the end of February regarding the remuneration they received in the previous year. Last year we showed that the department had not done that. They were so slow in preparing the information that it was after the end of February before the employees received the information as to their remuneration, and that was a direct contravention of one of the income tax regulations.
We are so close to the breaking point, March 1, at this moment that I am not in a position to say that the same situation applies this year. But this I do know, that up to three or four days ago, when I last had the opportunity to check, this information had not gone out to the employees in the Montreal area. It may have gone out in Toronto but had not gone out in the Montreal area, and it rather looks as if one department is again contravening the regulations made by another.
In order to be fair and give the minister the opportunity to reply before five o'clock, when we proceed to take up private bills, I am going to reserve the rest of my remarks for the first item or more appropriate items later on. But I would say to the minister, quite apart from the points that have been raised, that I felt his statement this morning -considering that it was the statement of someone coming to this house to report on behalf of a department which affects every Canadian-was pallid, innocuous and devoid of almost all the information one would have expected to be supplied to this house.
Let me touch just on a few of the items. The department is deeply involved in the development of a new electronic mail sorting machine and the costs are now running at something over $1 million; not a word about that. The civil service commission was supposed to be studying the classification of postmasters in order to arrive at a standard formula by which postmasters could be classified as to grade; not a word about that. Over the last year the department has embarked on an extended program involving the use of stamp vending machines across the country in public places; not a word about that.
The department has been questioned year after year with respect to the number of robberies and break-ins at post offices, which is a source of considerable irritation and results in considerable sums of money being lost; not

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a word about that. The department has been meeting a considerable problem in the field of mail transportation due to the extension of the use of new types of aircraft such as the Viscount, the mail carrying capacity of which is substantially less than in the case of the aircraft previously used. What steps are being taken to meet that problem? We do not know because there was no mention of this in the minister's statement.
And perhaps most interesting of all, in the estimates committee last year we were told that the department was just on the verge of having some very complete information regarding their operations, the cost by classifications of mail and the breakdown of their revenues through the establishment of a cost ascertainment division, the first studies of which were to be ready in September, 1956. This is information which is of tremendous importance, because it opens up a whole new vista in the subject of the Post Office Department. Yet the Postmaster General did not see fit in his remarks to make any reference whatever to the information which has been obtained in this way or to what progress has been made in respect of these studies.
These are great gaps, Mr. Chairman; and knowing something about the operation of the Post Office Department, because it affects every Canadian, we on this side of the house are in a position to take up these questions and delve into the operations of the department and ask the minister questions, and we shall do so. I would suggest to the minister, however, that it would be preferable for him to realize that when he comes into this house to make an initial statement it would be helpful to every one of us if he would avoid banal generalities and give us a really adequate review of the operations of his department.


Mr. Sfuart (Charlotte):: Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks to make and I shall be brief, because I realize the minister is perhaps expecting to make some reply before five o'clock.
The hon. member who has just resumed his seat and many others who have taken part in this debate have recommended that there should be two mail deliveries daily in the cities and urban centres where that type of service was previously provided. I for one would strongly suggest to the minister that before any consideration is given to increasing the service in cities and urban areas from one to two deliveries daily he should use his influence and first see to it that other citizens in this country and particularly those in the rural areas have at least one delivery a day.
In my own county there are several rural mail routes where they have three deliveries

a week, and with respect to one route they have four deliveries a week. I believe these citizens have every right to expect a daily mail delivery before two deliveries daily are made possible for other citizens in this country.
For those who enjoy receiving a daily newspaper it is a great inconvenience to receive that newspaper the day after it is published. My constituents bring this matter to my attention quite often, and I believe it is only fair to say they should have first consideration. In order to provide two deliveries daily in our cities it would mean a great expense for the department. Again I noticed that those in the official opposition were not hesitant about suggesting additional expenditure, but that is to be expected.
If we hope to give an eight-hour day to the employees of the Post Office Department, which they have every right to expect along with other civil servants, it means that we must employ a great many additional people in post offices right across Canada. I know that in my own home town, which is rather small, in order for the Post Office employees to be given a five-day week it was necessary to increase the staff, and it must certainly be an expensive procedure to follow in the larger cities.
Before improving the service in the cities and towns to the point where everyone is happy, I hope the minister will give serious consideration to those citizens who live in rural areas and who now have three or four mail deliveries a week. They would very much appreciate having a daily mail delivery. I know he will give this matter serious consideration, and we look forward to the time when we will all be having at least one mail delivery a day.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Chairman, I must say that my reaction to the question of the twice a day mail delivery service is very similar to that of the hon. member for Charlotte. I suppose our thinking in respect to this matter is inclined to be coloured somewhat by the type of constituency we represent.
As I listened to the hon. member for Notre Dame de Grace I came to the conclusion that . I would suggest to the Postmaster General in any consideration he is giving to twice a day mail delivery not to lose sight of the many thousands of people across this country who hope that some day they will have a twice a week mail delivery. As the Postmaster General will readily recognize, the coastal area of British Columbia, a large part of which lies in the Comox-Alberni constituency, is one of the most difficult areas in Canada for the gathering and distribution of mail. There are a great many problems that

arise from time to time in that area, partly because of the nature of the country itself and the manner in which the communities are separated one from another.
I have found, as have some hon. members who spoke today, that most of the problems which come to our attention from time to time relating to this department can be discussed with the district officers of the department and successfully resolved. I must say that as far as my own experience goes, most of the problems which have come to me have been resolved in that manner and there have not been many occasions when I have had to bother the headquarters officers of the department or the minister himself on postal matters. Like the member for Okanagan-Revelstoke, I have felt that the move toward the establishment of area superintendents is working out very well.
However, there are some matters which cannot be settled by the officers at the district level. There are one or two problems in my area at the present time upon which I should like to speak briefly. The gist of my remarks at this time is that I should like to seek the assistance of the Postmaster General in some negotiations I have been having from time to time with his colleague the Minister of Public Works. These negotiations relate to the need for improvement in some of the facilities in which some of the employees of the department are going to work, as well as improvements in facilities required by the patrons of post offices. There are a couple of areas in my district where very rapid expansion has been taking place, where the amount of money that is being spent in industrial investments, principally in the pulp and paper industry, is measured in the tens of millions of dollars per annum, and where there has been a consequent rapid increase in population. I feel that early action is required on these problems.
I am referring particularly to the village of Campbell River, the city of Alberni and Port Alberni. I wish the minister could have been with me when I called to see the postmaster in Campbell River not too long before the usual Christmas rush was expected this year. His department has been operating in rented quarters which were leased by the department at a time when Campbell River consisted of nothing much more than a fishing resort village, with a little logging activity. The pressure upon the accommodation there has grown to the point where the postmaster has become really desperate in attempting to secure temporary quarters to handle the Christmas 82715-115
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mail, and where the provision of even ordinary day to day mail service has become very difficult.
This Christmas a large part of the staff in the city of Alberni had to work downstairs in an almost unheated basement, with a low ceiling and a concrete floor. Patrons of the post office who wanted to get parcels and general mail delivery were forced to go down a rather narrow, crowded set of stairs. In Port Alberni the post office building is old, being of about first world war vintage, and has long been inadequate to meet the requirements of that area. A number of years ago postal walk service was inaugurated in Port Alberni, and this service has been carried on from an old garage. From the point of view of the welfare of the employees of the department in that area as well as from the point of view of the physical possibility of maintaining adequate service, I hope the Postmaster General will see fit to lend his support to an early construction program in the areas I have mentioned.
During the period to which I have been referring, a new, modern hospital has been constructed in the Alberni valley area, a new hospital is now under construction in Campbell River, and there have been quite a large number of fine new school buildings erected, although they have been having difficulty keeping pace with the demand for school rooms. The facilities in which this important public service has had to operate have not been expanded at all, and I feel that the time has come now when this situation should be met.


Mr. Balcom:: The hon. member for Royal expressed the fear that the maritimes might be overlooked in the issuing of these commemorative stamps. In order to allay that fear, I should like to say that the Nova Scotia historical society, as well as my colleague, have asked the Post Office Department for approval of a stamp commemorating the 200th anniversary of the establishment of the Nova Scotia house of assembly. We hope the minister and his officials will give this matter favourable consideration in the near future. Nova Scotia was the first province to have responsible government and it was also the first province to have many other things, such as a Joseph Howe who had the strength to stand up and fight for what he thought the maritimes needed.
At this time we are not asking for anything special from the Post Office Department, except that in the near future we would ask for a full review of rural mail contracts. These rural mail carriers are a class of people who operate under great difficulty. They have to be out in all kinds of weather and in Nova

Supply-Post Office
Scotia, as in some other parts of Canada, they still have to travel over dirt roads in some parts of their routes. The cost of everything is going up, including gasoline. Recently we have seen the announcement of an increase in the gasoline tax in Ontario. In Nova Scotia we have the highest gasoline tax of any province in Canada. If the department will give this matter consideration I am sure they will receive support, because everyone feels that the time has arrived when these contracts should be reviewed.
As I said, the Halifax members are not asking for anything in particular. However, we do want to give commendation and praise to the Post Office Department, the officials here in Ottawa and the local officials. I believe the public should be aware that post office officials from the postmaster down to the man who collects and delivers the mail are in positions of trust. I was hoping the hon. member for Notre Dame de Grace would join all the others who have been speaking today in such kindly terms about the post office officials. It seemed to me that his was the only dissenting voice we heard today. Perhaps he will have to admit that, for the most part, the service has been excellent.
Certainly we have our little troubles in Nova Scotia, but there are none which cannot be surmounted. There are some specific things for which we should thank the department. Some of them may be small, but all the same they seem important to the people. One of them is the clock in the Dartmouth post office. This clock seemed to be very important to the people in Dartmouth, though I said to them on one occasion that I did not know why they needed it repaired because the only time they used it was when they were going to Halifax.
While we are on Dartmouth, perhaps the Dartmouth post office itself might be looked at. The employees are working under very cramped conditions, which may slow up deliveries. Dartmouth is quite a centre today. As I said a while ago, it is the fastest growing town in Canada and has reached the city stage. They need a very extensive addition to the building, or a new one. For the information of the minister I might tell him he may already possess the information that there is land alongside the present building which is owned by the town of Dartmouth, and I am sure they would co-operate with the department in selling this land at a reasonable price. Perhaps the government would consider moving one of its departments from that building and erecting a building for the particular service which is now using it, namely the unemployment insurance commission. There are several other small things but I am

sure that my colleague and I can deal with them by interviewing the heads of the several departments.
Before I sit down I think I should pay a special tribute to the postmaster in Halifax, his staff and the district superintendent of Nova Scotia, who are always prepared to give good service.


Mr. Pearkes:: Mr. Chairman, I wonder
whether the Postmaster General when he replies would explain the degree of responsibility the department assumes for postal service to the armed forces. I have had certain complaints brought to my attention regarding the slow delivery of service mail. Strange to say, those complaints have not arisen from the forces overseas but from the forces stationed in some of the large encampments here in Canada. I do not know whether the Post Office Department' itself delivers the mail to those encampments such as Shilo and such as Gagetown will be, but there does seem to be more delay in delivering mail to those service establishments than there is to the nearby towns. I would suggest that service to the armed forces requires looking into.
There is also one particular matter I wish to bring up dealing with the relationship between the Post Office Department and the services, and that is the construction and maintenance of post offices in those various service establishments. I cite a particular case. There is a large number of service houses just outside Victoria at a place which is generally known as Belmont park. Belmont park is located at the entrance to the triservices college at Royal Roads, which is regarded as one of the show places of the Department of National Defence. Visitors from all over Canada go there on graduation days to see the closing exercises. They pass through Belmont park and just before they enter, or just after they pass through the lodge gate going down to the tri-services college, they see a sign reading "post office". That sign is located near one of the contractor's shacks which was left there during the housing construction which was undertaken some five or six years ago. It is the most dilapidated building in the whole of that area.
When I took the matter up with the Department of National Defence they told me that it was the responsibility of the Post Office Department. When I refer to the Post Office Department I am told that it is a matter for national defence, and when I refer to the Minister of Public Works he turns around and says, "I cannot get either the Department of National Defence or the Post Office Department to come to an agreement over this building, and I cannot start to put up anything which is suitable and which conforms with the

Private Bills-Divorce
buildings in the area until those two departments come to an agreement".
Now, I am not exaggerating when I say it is nothing but a dilapidated, unattractive shack. A car ran into it a couple of years ago and broke in the side of the building. No water is provided for the staff; and outside of the disgraceful appearance of the building, which is put at an angle to all the other buildings, it is impossible for the staff to provide the service which the patrons of that area have a right to expect. Furthermore, there is the question of the security of the mail. A good deal of service mail and a good deal of other important mail goes through that office because some of the families are the families of sailors who are at sea during a considerable period of their time, and I can assure you that when the serviceman is away-and mail can only come in occasionally, when the ship he is serving on happens to visit a port-the letters are regarded as something very precious.
I feel that for the security of Her Majesty's mail, for the accommodation of the staff, for the convenience of the patrons and the general appearance of the area and the impression which is made on the large number of visitors going to the tri-services college, something better should be provided. I would really like to know where the responsibility lies. Is it with the Postmaster General, is it with the Minister of National Defence or is it the Minister of Public Works who just will not get on with the job? I am inclined to think it is not the Minister of Public Works, although he is looking at me. I believe if he were told to go ahead and provide suitable accommodation he would get ahead with it. Therefore I suggest that the Postmaster General and the Minister of National Defence get together and remedy this disgraceful situation at the earliest possible opportunity.
I see it is five o'clock, Mr. Chairman.


The Deputy Chairman:: It being five o'clock, shall I report progress?


Hugues Lapointe: I wondered whether, before you call it five o'clock, hon. members would agree to pass the first item of those estimates and I would provide the answers to questions and to criticism of the department on the various specific items as we go through?


Mr. McCullough (Moose Mountain):: I have several matters that I should like to bring up.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: It being five o'clock, shall I report progress?
Progress reported.
82715-115i


PRIVATE BILLS
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: Is
it agreed that under the provisions of standing order 54 divorce bills listed under orders Nos. 24 to 80 inclusive shall be referred to the committee of the whole in one motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Edward George McCullough: I should
like to call attention to the fact that there are some 170 divorce bills before us this afternoon. I brought some of the evidence down to the chamber, and while I have tried to go through it to determine whether each and every one should receive special attention or whether or not a particular case had been contested, I simply have not been able to do that very thoroughly and I question whether other hon. members have, either. There are a number of cases which we would like to have called separately.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Apparently the hon. member is referring to those bills set down for second reading, but we intend to deal first with the bills that are now being referred to the committee of the whole after having been considered by the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.


CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 18, for the relief of Dorothy Frances Auger Delacobis.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 19, for the relief of Patricia Jean Jones Robinson.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 20, for the relief of Gwendoline Stedman Adrain.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 21, for the relief of Joyce Bernice Good Taylor.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 22, for the relief of Jessie Pearce Meti.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 23, for the relief of Maud Lenore Wheeler Lanctot.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 24, for the relief of Patricia Anne Wylie Houstoun Patience.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 26, for the relief of Anita Marinier Shaver.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 27, for the relief of Mary Matilda Chatfield Eldridge.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 28, for the relief of Phyllis Minnie Reid Foster.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 29, for the relief of Harry Leo Metham.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 30, for the relief of Dorothy Cumming Ryan.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 31, for the relief of Robert Allan Taylor.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 32, for the relief of Eta Krupnick Caron.-Mr. Henderson.
[Stage Direction]
Private Bills-Divorce
Bill No. 33, for the relief of Camille Emile Bunlet.

Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 34, for the relief of Catharina Lassahn Schwartje.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 35, for the relief of Lewis George Joy.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 36, for the relief of Harvey Clifford Yetman.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 37, for the relief of Marie Rose Lina Patricia Guertin Theberge.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 38, for the relief of Jean Prefontaine.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 39, for the relief of Emma Rosetta Rule Fuglewicz.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 40, for the relief of Joan Monica Evans Schwarz.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 41, for the relief of Diana Mary Beatrice Glassco Cumming.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 42, for the relief of Edith Chatfield Gossage.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 43, for the relief of Mary Frances Crosbie Kirkham.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 45, for the relief of Elizabeth Trefry Cahusac.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 48, for the relief of Dudley Nurse. -Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 49, for the relief of Aldo Ermacora. -Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 50, for the relief of Anastazia Suchodolska Matiosaitis.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 51, for the relief of Joan Simonne Ghent Brooks.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 52, for the relief of Philip Tam-borino.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 53, for the relief of Muriel Martha Margaret Wilkins St. James.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 54, for the relief of Boris Var-variuk.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 55, for the relief of Stefania Stella Rosiu Nahorniak.

Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 56, for the relief of Douglas Pinkney.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 57, for the relief of Doris Amelia Carter Nicolle.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 58, for the relief of Aldona Dodon Kulczycki.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill	No.	59,	for	the	relief	of	Elizabeth
Catherine Baggott Allarie.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 60, for the relief of Edwin Alfred Le Corney,-Mr. Henderson.
Bill	No.	61,	for	the	relief	of	Margaret
Mary Ellen Morninge Hartwell.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill	No.	62,	for	the	relief	of	Charlotte
Ellis Elkin.-Mr. Henderson.
[The Deputy Chairman.]
Bill No. 63, for the relief of Shirley Anne Julian Boyd.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 64, for the relief of Georgette Paquette Senecal.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 65, for the relief of Pierrette Beaudry Dennis.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 66, for the relief of Catherine Phyllis Reid MacDonald.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 67, for the relief of Grace Alice Williams Jones.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 68, for the relief of Olga Helen Descyca Eckford.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 69, for the relief of Patricia Mary Shewan Chalmers.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 70, for the relief of Edith Beryl Jewett Gagnon.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 75, for the relief of Gwyneth Owen Young Douglas.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 76, for the relief of Beverley Carol Wilson Barnes.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 77, for the relief of Katharine Kimball Little Blake.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 78, for the relief of Frances Elizabeth Lyon Rose.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 79, for the relief of Sylvia Elizabeth Goodfellow Rief.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 80, for the relief of Anne Griffith Brown.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 81, for the relief of Dorothy Ellen McCulloch Ritchie.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 82, for the relief of Marie Rose Elizabeth Giroux Lefrancois, otherwise known as Colette Giroux Lefrancois.-Mr. Henderson.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: We come now to orders Nos. 81 to 101 which cover divorce bills set down for second reading. If there are certain bills that hon. members would like to have held out I shall be glad to meet their wishes. It would be helpful if hon. members would refer to them by the order number rather than the bill number, because the order numbers are consecutive.


Mr. Nicholson:: I wonder if orders Nos. 81, 84, 85, 86 and 101 might be held out? '


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: Very well.


SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 84, for the relief of Lorna Claire Bianchi Shields.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 85, for the relief of Edna Hall Powell Tannahill.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 89, for the relief of Clarence Ronald John Emberg.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 90, for the relief of Elizabeth Joyce Cole Fraser.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 91, for the relief of Joseph Rolland Forest.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 92, for the relief of Bessie Holmes Saunders.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 93, for the relief of Sarah Spiegel Wigdor.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 94, for the relief of Joyce Western Dolan-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 95, for the relief of Christina Muriel Jean Leard Kowal.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 96, for the relief of Pauline Marguerite Dastous Bourgon.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 97, for the relief of Marie France Jose Therese Fasbender Rousseau.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 98, for the relief of Mary Klodin Freeze.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 99, for the relief of Zigurds Berzins.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 100, for the relief of Tobia Betze van Lier Franken.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 101, for the relief of Marthe Brais Laurence.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 102, for the relief of Miriam Fridman Herszlikowicz.-Mr. Henderson.

Mr. W. J. Henderson (Kingston) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 83, for the relief of Lorna Charlotte Brooks McConnery.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, I notice that this bill has been considered carefully by Senators Cameron, Hodges, Hawkins and Smith. This bill indicates an interesting change in divorce procedure which I would draw to the attention of the house. I notice that the respondent appeared in person and admitted that his conduct did not conform to the practice usually prescribed. Senator Cameron objected to the procedure being followed by counsel, in the following words:
Counsel, you are almost putting words into her mouth so I think you had better be careful.
Then there is an interjection by Senator Hawkins:
Well, you say you have explained it to her and she understands what the words mean.
There was some question about the witness having been asked certain questions. The discussion about possible collusion is interesting. It is possible that this word has different definitions in different dictionaries, and apparently its meaning is not understood by all people to be the same. It would appear that if this procedure is to be followed, when it is impossible for a couple to live together any longer if they come to the other chamber and tell the truth there will be apparently no particular problem in a divorce being granted. I simply wanted to bring that change to the attention of the house.
Private Bills-Divorce


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 86, for the relief of Marion Ruth Bronfman Hoffer.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 87, for the relief of John Fraser McLean.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 88, for the relief of Rene Dauray. -Mr. Henderson.

William James Henderson: second reading of Bill No. 103, for the relief of Cleo Joseph Ladouceur.


George Hugh Castleden: With regard to the passing of these bills, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I believe the other place is now doing a much more thorough job than has been the case heretofore. I rise mainly to take exception to what has been said in certain quarters, namely that hon. members of this house rose to protest these bills merely in order to get their names in the papers. Nothing is farther from the truth. Hon. members of this group opposed the manner in which these cases have been going through the house, and their opposition to divorce bills has, in a number of cases, been strengthened by the fact that we have been able to point out instances where gross injustice was being done. Through contesting certain cases we have brought to the attention of hon. members of this house, as well as to others, the fact that there have been gross injustices which, in my view, were a reflection on parliament.
It was because we believed this manner of granting divorces to be a reflection on this house that we objected to certain of these bills, and I want to say how deeply we resent the insinuation that we have only been doing this for publicity purposes. We have been able to prevent a number of divorces being granted with, I think, the general support of the Canadian people. Some of the evidence which was given was quite openly and quite admittedly perjured. The system and manner in which the evidence in some of these divorce cases was being found was a disgrace to any court in Canada, and certainly a situation which we as Canadians could not continue to permit.
I believe that as a result of our action there has been some improvement in the handling of the cases. And I believe that a number of cases which heretofore, might possibly have come before this house, and which would have gone through this house.

Private Bills
have been prevented, that the cases have been withdrawn and some measure of justice meted out.
I think this is one of the cases where the type of evidence we have heretofore had presented to the house has been prohibited and a new approach and I think, a much better one, made. The evidence in this case has been presented to the committee, and it is not our intention to try to fight the case or talk it out. But I do think there is evidence that good work is being done. We protest against anyone, either here or any other place, making insinuations against our motives in trying to get some justice done in this country, and we think it ill behooves those who make such statements to do so.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Mr. J. A. Simmons (Yukon) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 105, to incorporate Alaska-Yukon Pipelines Ltd.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to incorporate a pipe-line company under the provisions of the Pipe Lines Act. As hon. members know, this step is necessary before any company can engage in the operation of a pipe line which crosses a provincial or international border; it must be incorporated by an act of parliament pursuant to the provisions of the Pipe Lines Act. It is also necessary to refer the project subsequently to the board of transport commissioners.
The measure now before the house follows the general pattern of pipe-line bills already approved by parliament, and I can assure hon. members that when this particular bill is passed it will not be a dormant measure. The important clause of the bill is probably clause 5, which reads:
The company shall have all the powers, privileges and immunities conferred by, and be subject to all the limitations, liabilities and provisions of the Pipe Lines Act, and any other general legislation relating to pipe lines enacted by parliament with respect to the transmission and transportation of gas and oil and other liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons.
The chief operative part of the bill is clause 6, which empowers the company to construct, purchase, lease or otherwise acquire and operate lines of pipe within Canada, namely in the Yukon Territory, the Northwest Territories and in the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia as well as outside Canada. This "outside Canada" provision is necessary because it is planned immediately to construct a 6-inch pipe line from Haines, Alaska, at tidewater on Lynn

canal through Alaskan territory a distance of 40 miles to Pleasant Camp, British Columbia; thence a 4^-inch pipe line approximately 119 miles through the northwest tip of British Columbia to Haines Junction in Yukon Territory, to connect with the existing Canol system of pipe lines at that point.
The company plans to build this pipe line, commencing early in May, from the refinery to be constructed at Haines, Alaska, to Haines Junction in the Yukon Territory, a total distance of approximately 159 miles, at an estimated cost of $3,500,000.
As mentioned, it is intended that the new line will connect with the existing system of pipe lines commonly known as the Canol project. This Canol project consists of a 3-inch line from Whitehorse to the Yukon-Alaska border parallel to the Alaska highway and, in addition, a 2-inch pipe line extending from Carcross, Yukon, to Watson Lake at mile 634 on the Alaska highway, a length of almost 300 miles.
I should explain that the Canol system of pipe lines was constructed during the second world war by the United States government with the consent, of course, of the Canadian government. It was constructed for the purpose of transporting petroleum products for the use of army and air force establishments in the north during the war. It is understood that the 3-inch and 2-inch lines are shortly to be deactivated and declared surplus by the United States government.
The people of the world today are more aware than ever before of the tremendously important role performed by oil and oil products in providing fuel for heating, power, and lubrication to keep the wheels of modern industry turning. This is just as applicable to the economy of the north as it is in other parts of Canada and the world. In the Alaska-Yukon area the point that stands out most clearly is the lack of basic industry to create new wealth through the utilization of natural resources in the region. The development of these resources is the firm basis for sound and stable growth.
The main requirement for prosperous business and living conditions may be summed up in one word, "oil". Whether it be transportation, highway construction, or heating of homes, hospitals, churches and places of industry, the need for oil and oil products is a paramount one. As a major contribution to the solution of this problem in the northwest part of this continent, Alaska-Yukon Refiners and Distributors Limited propose to enter aggressively into the business of refining, transporting and distributing petroleum products in both the Yukon and Alaska.

It is proposed to accomplish this in two main ways. It is planned to construct a 6,500 to 10,000 barrel per day refinery at Haines, Alaska, at a cost of $6 million to $10 million. The measure before the house has reference to the other aspect of the project, namely the building and operating of pipe lines by Alaska-Yukon Pipelines Limited. At a later stage in this entire development it is planned to build a line also from Tok Junction near the Alaska border to Anchorage in Alaska, at an estimated cost of between $5 million and $6 million.
The bill before the house has already been examined carefully in the other place and has been passed with only one alteration in its original form. The only change is the broadening of the geographical scope of the bill in order to meet any possible special conditions that may arise in the future in the north in the way of oil developments.
I wish to explain also that no shares of this company are being offered in the United States of America. The financing operations will be carried out entirely within Canada. Alaska-Yukon Refiners and Distributors Limited is incorporated under the laws of Alberta, and the head office will be in Edmonton. The directors are men well trained in the industry and experienced in the operation of facilities for handling distributing and marketing petroleum products.
In view of the way the economy of the Yukon Territory and Alaska is expanding, economists who are trained in making business analyses and in judging business trends claim that the project envisioned by this company will be of great economic benefit to the north generally. Industrial enterprise is urgently needed in that region, and this particular project is certain to be a major factor in establishing industrial incentives.
For the entire lifetime of the north country, and this is true of both the Yukon and Alaska, practically all petroleum requirements have been filled from California sources. This supply has been in the nature of a monopoly. The addition of a modern refinery and the entry of another distributing company will be warmly welcomed and supported by the people of both territories. I firmly believe that this project fits strategically within the present era of prosperity and development throughout Canada. Moreover, it is in the competent hands of those who know the north and its needs, as well as its challenging opportunities.
Once the necessary legislative authority is granted I know an early start will be made on pipe-line construction. Pipe is on order at the present time, and it is hoped that the
Private Bills
building of the line will commence early in May of this year and be completed as far as Haines Junction by late September or early October.
When the bill is given second reading in this chamber, any hon. member wishing to raise a particular point concerning the measure will have an opportunity to do so in the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Speaker, while listening to the mellifluous and dulcet tones of the hon. member for Yukon during his interesting recitation of the virtues of this bill, my mind wandered back to the early days of this century. As a matter of fact, it was only recently that I was in a hall where the hon. member made his first speech in 1904. On that occasion he was rewarded with an all-day sucker. Today he expects to be rewarded by the passage of this bill. However, I can assure the hon. member that his reward will not be as prompt on this occasion as it was on the occasion of his first speech.
I listened with interest to the hon. member's lucid explanation of the purpose of the bill and the intention of the company. While necessarily we have to reserve judgment at this stage, I was pleased to learn that no shares are being offered in the United States. That is like a breath of fresh air. I was also glad to learn that as a result the company will be Canadian-owned.
I am quite sure the hon. member realizes what the pipe line will mean to the Yukon country when he said it would be a major factor in promoting industrial development in the region he has the honour to represent. I was also interested in another comment he made. He suggested, if I heard him correctly, that at the present time the people of the Yukon suffer somewhat from monopoly conditions in connection with the distribution of oil, and that with the building of the pipe line and the consequent refinery that condition would change and some competition would be provided for the present distributors in the area.
However, as a Canadian I have, on the surface at least, one serious objection at the present time to the bill. Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, but my colleague has got my literature mixed up with his rubbish. The title of the bill is "An act to incorporate Alaska-Yukon Pipelines Limited". In view of the fact that the hon. member tells us that all the stock will be subscribed for in Canada, that in effect it will be a Canadian company and that its major purpose is to serve the needs and requirements of the people of the

Private Bills
Yukon and the future industrial development, I think it is most unfortunate that the name of the company should be "Alaska-Yukon Pipelines Limited." I suggest to the hon. member that when we get in committee we will do all we can to have the title changed to Yukon-Alaska Pipelines Limited, which would more correctly describe the objectives and purposes of the company.
It is very difficult to pass judgment on a bill of this nature without it being referred to the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, and I was very pleased to hear the hon. member say the bill is going to that committee. I hope the committee will have the opportunity to question witnesses, commencing with the hon. member himself, who I am sure will have a fund of valuable information to give the committee, and also officials of the company concerned and possibly some engineers and other persons with technical knowledge and experience.
Having said these few things in connection with the bill, Mr. Speaker, we reserve our judgment on it until we have heard and examined the witnesses in the committee.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Mr. Speaker, I hope when the hon. member for Yukon closes the debate he will see fit to inform the house what the precise role was that was being played by the hon. member for Kootenay West at the time the member for Yukon got an all-day sucker. I join with my colleague, the member for Kootenay West, in appreciating the interest the member for Yukon has in seeing developments take place in his part of the country, and I was interested in his outline of the development that he envisages will take place if this bill is passed by the house. More and more those of us who have not yet had the opportunity of seeing firsthand the part of the country from which he comes are becoming interested in it and in its welfare and development.
However, there are one or two points which I think should come to our minds in relation to what the hon. member said when introducing the bill. If I caught his words correctly he said that the bill in its present form and substance follows the same pattern as previous pipe-line bills which have been introduced in and approved by the house. In view of some of the developments which have been brought to our attention recently in respect of pipe-line companies that have been incorporated under bills of this type, we cannot help having some misgivings with respect to bills that follow this pattern as this one does and as those will which may come up in the future.
I appreciate the interest the hon. member has in seeing his part of the country develop.
[Mr. Herridge.l
However, I notice that this company is going to start its organization having in its treasury one million shares of nominal par value. I cannot help but wonder whether in the course of time the same situation will develop in the hon. member's part of the country that has developed in British Columbia, where we see pipe-line companies that were incorporated a few years ago in a similar manner providing lucrative returns to their promoters at the expense of those who are going to rely on the facilities created.
These questions arise in my mind as I consider the matter of approving the principle of the bill which the hon. member is introducing. I hope when we get into the committee those witnesses to- whom the hon. member for Kootenay West referred will appear and give us assurances that are more convincing than those given by witnesses who have appeared on previous occasions when bills of this type were being considered. I hope they will be able to convince us that they are not looking for the kind of concessions that others apparently have been able to get. Perhaps they may have some explanation to offer as to the intention in respect to issuing shares or options on shares to directors and that sort of thing.
If the hon. member is in a position to give us some assurances of that kind when he closes the debate on second reading of course we will be very glad to receive them; but as the hon. member for Kootenay West said, we are perhaps prepared to reserve any real judgment on this matter until the bill has been discussed in the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.
I think I really do not need to explain to the hon. member for Yukon and this house that as far as we in the C.C.F. group are concerned we would much prefer to see this initiative taken in his part of the country as a public venture, under which all the benefits of the pipe-line transmission would accrue to the users of the facilities, those who will be dependent on them.
I shall not say any more on that subject at this time. If the hon. member cares to give us any assurances in this respect when he closes the debate, we will be glad to have them, as I have said. Otherwise we may have some questions to ask when the bill reaches the committee stage.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

William James Henderson: the second reading of Bill No. 107, for the relief of Elizabeth Mabel Freestone Lachance.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of these orders which appear to deserve some comment. I wonder if orders No. Ill, 126, 135, 142, 152, 159-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member does not need to go beyond order 151.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am sorry.


Mr. Speaker:: Do I understand that the house is agreeable to take in one motion all the bills with the exception of orders No. Ill, 126, 135, and 142. Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 108, for the relief of Marion Campbell Stewart.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 109, for the relief of Jean MacRae Barnett.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 110, for the relief of Anita Roberge Fournier..-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. Ill, for the relief of Louise Yvette Ruth Dumais Jacobson.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 112, for the relief of Noella Jacques Primeau.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 113, for the relief of Joan Perl Finfer Weber.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 114, for the relief of Jacques Alfred LeGault.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 116, for the relief of Harold Ernest Woodrow.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 117, for the relief of Winnifred Matthews Forrester.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 118, for the relief of Clara Price Kimmel.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 119, for the relief of Margaret Nelson Sime Jackson.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 120, for the relief of John Howard Burland Webb.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 121, for the relief of Katharine Puobis Dynes.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 122, for the relief of Edward Kotapski.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 123, for the relief of Julija Rinke-viciute Strelis.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 124, for the relief of Samuel Weniger.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 125, for the relief of Marie-Yvette Laurette Petit Levesque.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 126, for the relief of Lennard Gordon Spurred.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 127, for the relief of Marjorie Edwina Elizabeth Eke Stanley.-Mr. Henderson.
Private Bills-Divorce
Bill No. 128, for the relief of Joseph Jacques Robert Mackay.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 129, for the relief of Sylvia Slutsky Steinhart.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 131, for the relief of Alice Kather rine Sorensen Engel.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 132, for the relief of Deirdre Joan Lang Srb.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 133, for the relief of Lily Brigham Hall Fallon.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 134, for the relief of Margaret Cameron Brown Gravenor.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 135, for the relief of Naim Shaul Goorji.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 136, for the relief of Roxcina Viola McPherson Lippiatt.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 137, for the relief of Lillian Annie Wagner Fahy.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 139, for the relief of Pauline Jean Stoakley Ramsay Porter.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 141, for the relief of Chana Paya Trifskin Cupchik.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 142, for the relief of Victor Edward Drembo.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 143, for the relief of Doris Silver-sides Harper.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 144, for the relief of Lily Claiman Neiss.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 145, for the relief of Abraham Sztajnhart, otherwise known as Abraham Steinhart.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 146, for the relief of Elizabeth Hill Silver.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 148, for the relief of Mary Tuske-wich Gashler.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 149, for the relief of Muriel Gamache McCrea.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 150, for the relief of Maitabel Horwitz Johnson.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 151, for the relief of Laurette Lacombe Paradis.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 152, for the relief of Claude Christopher Richard Luard.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 153, for the relief of Joseph Elie Claude Lacelle.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 154, for the relief of Muriel Audrey Connor McLeod.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 155, for the relief of Margaret Ragna Erickson Hunt.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 156, for the relief of Francois Richer LaFleche, otherwise known as Francois Pierre Patrice Joseph Richer LaFleche. -Mr. Henderson.

William James Henderson: the second reading of Bill No. 115, for the relief of Rina Cirl Reich Nutovic.


Edward George McCullough: Mr. Speaker, I think it should be clear to the house that one of the important criteria in respect to the passing of these bills is the credibility of the evidence presented to

Private Bills-Divorce
the committee of the other place. In respect to this petition of Rina Cirl Reich Nutovic I should point out to hon. members that changes were made in the petition by counsel for the petitioner. I should like to draw attention to the four changes asked for in the petition:
1.	Clause 3, line 3: delete "August" and substitute "May".
2.	Clause 5, line 1: delete "August, 1956" and substitute "May, 1956".
3.	Clause 6, line 2: delete "23rd" and substitute "24th".
4.	Clause 7, line 2: delete "23rd" and substitute "24th".
These changes appear at page 7 of the minutes of proceedings of the subcommittee on divorce, dated Friday, January 25, 1957.
Some of us who have looked into these various bills that come before us and who have also had the privilege of serving on the committee dealing with miscellaneous private bills are fully aware that some of the evidence given by petitioners and more particularly by investigators cannot be taken as truthful. I should like to draw the attention of the house at this time to the fact that at the present time we have before the committee a reinvestigation into a case which was referred to it last week, wherein two investigators-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member cannot refer to proceedings now taking place in a committee if the report of the committee has not been made.


Edward George McCullough: I realize that, Mr. Speaker, but I was simply trying to generalize in order to explain that the credibility of the evidence which comes before us is questionable and I think it should be examined carefully by hon. members of this house. Otherwise it reduces to a ridiculous state the procedure of these divorces coming before this chamber and being passed in a summary manner.
As the hon. member for Yorkton said earlier, more and more hon. members of this chamber should realize that our object is to have these bills go to a more appropriate place.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

William James Henderson: the second reading of Bill No. 130, for the relief of Margaret Frances Dearmond Bonner.


Edward George McCullough: Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out at this time that something in the nature of a precedent has been established in this case. As far as I am aware, formerly petitions
IMr. McCullough (Moose Mountain).]
coming before the other place entered evidence sought out by investigators in order to prove the act of adultery. In this case only the petitioner and the respondent gave evidence before the committee. It would appear that a precedent is being established under which the other place is accepting less and less evidence to establish adultery, and perhaps this house is being put in the same position. I feel this is a dangerous thing, and I should like to draw it to the attention of the house. Again I say it is quite inappropriate for this house to be dealing with divorce bills.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

William James Henderson: the second reading of Bill No. 140, for the relief of Allan Graham Bennett.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, this case was heard by Their Honours Senators Golding, Barbour, Howden and Smith of Queen-Shelburne. Again, the respondent appeared to give evidence. Of course the following questions were asked:
Q. Is there any collusion or arrangement between you and your wife to obtain this divorce?
A. No.
Q. Have you any way connived with-
Mention is made of the third party.
-against your wife to obtain this divorce?
A. No.
Q. Is there any condonation or forgiveness on your part?
A. No.
Then Senator Barbour, who was anxious to get some information in connection with the case, asked these questions:
Q. Did you walk out and leave your wife and children?
A. She told me to get out, and I went over to my mother's.
Q. You are not a small man-you say you got out?
A. Yes, sir; I couldn't take it no more. She was coming in at late hours in the morning and she huffed and told me to get out.
By Mr. Jacobs:
Q. How long had that situation been going on?
A. For months.
By Senator Howden:
Q. Did you want to leave home?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you leave home under protest or were you willing to leave home when she told you to?
A. When she told me to get out, I was just a bunch of nerves and I went to my mother's and stayed there.


Mr. Pickersgill:: I thought it was usually the wife who went to mother.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Are you speaking from
experience?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Well, Mr. Speaker, the respondent came and she corroborated the evi-

dence her husband had given. She admitted that she had been living for some time with the third party. He came, and he supported the evidence which had been given. Now the divorce is being granted. It would appear to me this would be a much less costly procedure than engaging detectives and going to the expense of going to some hotel in one of our larger cities.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

William James Henderson: the second reading of Bill No. 147, for the relief of Gaston Bedard.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: This is one of those wartime casualties. This soldier went overseas and apparently during his absence things did not go very well at home. However, the wife did come to Ottawa and she objected to the divorce being granted. Her evidence was not too clear. A daughter also appeared, presumably to give evidence on behalf of her mother, but counsel remarked as follows:
The next witness is the daughter of the parties and it is embarrassing to her to be called and I will call her if I have to. I would much prefer not to, again for obvious reasons. I will leave it to you gentlemen.
Senator Hawkins asked how old the daughter was and was told the daughter was a married woman in her twenties. Then counsel continued:
. . . but may I point out that there is a judgment of the superior court of the province of Quebec based on legal principles, which is irreversible, and I would suggest that that alone ought to be very cogent evidence before you.
Then Senator Burchill asked if that was the only other witness and counsel said:
Yes. I realize the other court finding is not binding on this committee but it is a court judgment based on principles of law. It is considered scandalous from the point of view of administration of justice for anyone else to make a contrary finding. I do rely on that, and I would like to avoid calling the other witness.
Things became rather involved then, and Their Honours thought they should take some time to think about it so an adjournment was granted. Unfortunately the wife appeared without counsel, and Their Honours have recommended that the divorce be granted.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.
DOROTHY AMELIA ASHMORE MaCDONALD
The house resumed, from Friday, February 15, consideration of the motion of Mr. Henderson for the second reading of Bill No. 17,
Private Bills-Divorce
for the relief of Dorothy Amelia Ashmore MacDonald, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Regier.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: 
William James Henderson: I notice,
Mr. Speaker, that there is an amendment, and I was wondering whether or not it was the intention of the last speaker to withdraw

Private Bills
that amendment before we approve the bill. There was an amendment moved by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam on the last day we were discussing this bill. Is it the intention of the hon. member who just sat down to withdraw the amendment?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have no authority to withdraw it. The hon. member is not here.


William James Henderson: May I suggest that the bill stand?


Mr. Speaker:: Well, I take it that having reached the stage where we are bound to ask the house whether it is ready for the question, we might perhaps find out what is the view of the members on it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I suggest you might put the question. At this hour in the afternoon I do not think we would want to force a recorded vote.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question? The question is on the amendment. Those who are in favour will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those who are opposed to the amendment will please say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the nays have it.
Motion agreed to on division, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.


FRANCES MAY COUSINS STONE
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, February 19, consideration of the motion of Mr. Henderson for the second reading of Bill No. 74, for the relief of Frances May Cousins Stone.
Mr. Speaker:: Is the house ready for the question? Those who are in favour of the motion will please say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Mr. Speaker:: Those who are opposed to the motion will please say nay.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Nay.


Mr. Speaker:: In my opinion the yeas
have it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On division.


Mr. Speaker:: I declare the motion carried on division.
Motion agreed to on division, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.


CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY COMPANY
[Stage Direction]
On the order:
February 22-House again in committee on Bill No. 16 (letter S of the Senate), intituled: "An act respecting Canadian Pacific Railway Company and certain wholly owned subsidiaries''. (Without amendment).-Mr. Mcllraith.
Mr. Speaker:: In the absence of the sponsor, would there be unanimous consent to have this order stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.


DIVORCE BILLS
Mr. Speaker:: Will hon. members be agreeable to orders numbered 155 to 170, being divorce bills, being take in one motion?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, would you divorce order No. 170 from the others?


Mr. Speaker:: Do I understand that the hon. member is reserving order No. 170 only?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes; it is the only one I am asking for, at any rate.


Mr. Speaker:: All the other bills are to be considered in one motion?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: These bills, orders 155 to 169 inclusive, will be read the second time now?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


SECOND READINGS
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 162, for the relief of Florence Helen Leslie Redston.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 163, for the relief of Jeannine Thauvoye Pastuszko.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 164, for the relief of Ellen Catherine Norma Hogan Liddell.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 165, for the relief of Abrasha Brainin.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 166, for the relief of George Henry Eaton.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 167, for the relief of John Bernard Finucane.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 168, for the relief of Anne Marie Marguerite Victoria Melchers Harwood.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 169, for the relief of Estelle Frances Demaio Parr.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 170, for the relief of Helmut Josef Wagner.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 171, for the relief of Therese Filion Robert.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 172, for the relief of Elizabeth Mary Gnaedinger Johnson.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 173, for the relief of Peggy Mary Trim Bodaly.

Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 174, for the relief of Arthur John Chatham.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 175, for the relief of Margaret Louise Martin Bowden.-Mr. Henderson.
Bill No. 176, for the relief of Margaret Joan Carol McCurley Decaire.-Mr. Henderson.

William James Henderson: the second reading of Bill No. 177, for the relief of Jean-Paul Audette.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say a few words with respect to Bill No. 177. I want to make it clear that I have no objection to the passing of Bill No. 177, which is a little different from most of the bills in this category. In this case the petitioner has asked not for a divorce but rather for an annulment. I think anyone who might read the evidence would agree that an annulment in this case is appropriate. However, it does seem to me that a rather grievous error in the permanent records of parliament has occurred which should be corrected. I am not sure just how it can be done, but I will lay the matter before Your Honour and perhaps you might find a solution.
In reading through the evidence in connection with this case it is thoroughly and abundantly clear that there is no question of adultery on anyone's part. The reason for the request for the annulment is non-consummation. It is clear in the evidence that the man and the wife in this case lived together for six or seven years and that every effort was made to achieve harmonious and normal relations. I do not think I need say anything further about the evidence. It is well stated, well given, and the witnesses included medical men. So far as the evidence is concerned everything is quite satisfactory.
However, when one looks at page 6 of the report of the committee on divorce in the other place regarding this case he finds this paragraph over the name of the clerk of the Senate subcommittee, also with the word "attest" at the left side. This is the paragraph:
It was resolved to report to the main committee that: Your subcommittee find as a fact that, according to the evidence adduced, the allegations contained in paragraphs 6 to 8, both inclusive and particularly that the respondent committed adultery as alleged in paragraphs 6 and 6a of the said petition, have been proved.
There is no reference in paragraphs 6 to 8, Mr. Speaker, particularly there is no reference in paragraphs 6 and 6a of the petition
Private Bills-Divorce
to adultery; there is no reference to adultery anywhere in the evidence concerning this case, yet the subcommittee reported to the main committee of the other place that a divorce should be granted on the basis of adultery having been proved.
I have pursued this matter a little further so far as the records of the other place are concerned, and I find that the report of this case was the 158th report of the committee on divorce and that it was made in the other place on February 7 by Senator Roebuck. It reads, as recorded in the Votes and Proceedings of the Senate, as follows:
With respect to the petition of . . . for an act to dissolve his marriage with . . .
I do not think I need to read any more. I checked on this and I find that whenever an annulment is requested and put through parliament the wording is different. Instead of the words "to dissolve" the report uses the words "to annul". The actual bill that is before us is correct. The bill, namely No. 177, varies from the rest of the bills we have in that instead of stating in clause 1 that the marriage is hereby dissolved it says, "the marriage is hereby annulled." The preamble is correct; the bill is correct.
My point, Mr. Speaker, is that in the official records of the other place, and I include such records in the records of parliament, there is a gross misstatement in that the lady in this case is accused of having committed adultery and it is alleged in these reports that this fact has been proved. It was not alleged; it is not in the petition; there is no reference to it in the evidence at all. It is a clear case of non-consummation despite the attempt on the part of husband and wife to live together harmoniously and normally for six or seven years, and I would hope Your Honour might find some way, either when the report is made to return this evidence to the other place or in some other way open to Your Honour, to have the record of the other place corrected so there will not be on the permanent records of parliament an allegation of adultery said to be proved against a person in an instance where such an allegation is absolutely false.
I have no objection to the bill; I think it should be passed. I would hope, however, that a way might be found to correct this error in the records of the other place.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answers, deposited with the Clerk of the house, are printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Stanton: 1 and 2.
Applications Received: British Columbia ....
Alberta	
Saskatchewan	
Manitoba	
Ontario	
Quebec	
New Brunswick	
Nova Scotia	
Prince Edward Island Newfoundland	
Applications rejected:


EMIGRATION AND IMMIGRATION STATISTICS, CANADA-UNITED STATES
Mr. Girard: 1.	How many Canadians have emigrated to the United States since 1945, and what number from each province?
2.	How many American citizens have immigrated to Canada since 1945?
1.	How many applications for loans were received by the farm loan board, for each of the years 1952, 1953, 1954 and 1955, by provinces?
2.	How many applications in each of these years were rejected?
Answer by: Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Finance):
1951-52	1952-53	1953-54	1954-55302	396	269	326274	348	350	456936	1120	1145	1461274	314	332	331740	1165	1177	1254453	700	813	580152	192	233	20175	82	92	87129 4	127	180	1973339	4444	4591	48931951-52	1952-53	1953-54	1954-551367	1628	1752	2029
Answer by: Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):
1.	The government of Canada does not maintain statistics on emigration from Canada to the United States.
2.	From January 1, 1946, to December 31, 1956, 90,619 citizens of the United States immigrated to Canada.

Monday, March 4, 1957