1957-11-22

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Bonavisia-Twil-lingate):: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Prime Minister is in a position now to answer starred question No. 37.


Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I was not here yesterday. I promised to give an answer at the first opportunity and I had it available, but it was necessary for me to be absent. The questions are as follows:
1.	Are loans based on the principle applied to the Beechwood project to be available only for projects in the Atlantic provinces?
The answer is no.
2.	If not, will all provinces qualify?
The answer is that any province that has a project for which there is an equally good case could qualify in respect of that project.
3.	Are such loans available only for projects owned by provincial governments or provincial crown agencies or will they be available to private power companies sponsored by a provincial government?
The answer is no, they would not be available for private companies.
4.	Are such loans available only for new or uncompleted projects or will they be available for refunding obligations of established power projects in the Atlantic provinces?
The answer is they would not be available for refunding obligations.


Hon. Jean Lesage (Monlmagny-L'Islei):: May I ask a supplementary question. The Prime Minister said, in answer to the second part of the question, I believe, that other provinces would be eligible if they had an equally good case. Would he be good enough to enlarge on that and tell the house especially if the words "equally good case" have in them the factor of inability to supply the capital necessary for a given development?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the general policy, of course, arose in connection with the peculiar circumstances existing in the maritime provinces, where through the years there has been a realization on the part of Canadians as a whole that those areas did
not at all times equal the general development in other parts of Canada. Wherever there is a position similar to that, naturally the similar circumstances will assure that similar consideration will be given by the government to applications made by provinces.


Jean Lesage: May I ask a supplementary question. Do I interpret the reply of the Prime Minister as meaning that, under the present financial circumstances of Ontario and Quebec, this policy would not apply to them?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have given the general formula. My hon. friend will be able to determine the answer, on the basis of that formula, as to whether or not Ontario and Quebec would be in a similar category.



MISSION TO UNITED KINGDOM


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. S. Zaplifny (Dauphin):: Yesterday the Prime Minister expressed the hope that as a result of the mission going to the United Kingdom, a new concept of trade between our country and the United Kingdom would be born. Did that new concept to which he was referring mean the acceptance of the free trade offer made by the United Kingdom?


John George Diefenbaker: Again my hon. friend is placing himself in the position of interpreting the words I used. What I said in effect was this, that the mission in question is unusual in the sense that I believe it is the first of its kind; imaginative in its concept, in that businessmen, agriculturists, leaders in labour, fisheries and the like, go over to the United Kingdom with a view to ascertaining what can be done to bring about an increase in trade, which indeed would be a new concept having regard to the novelty of a group of outstanding men undertaking such a responsibility on behalf of this country.


Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):: The Prime Minister was not in the house yesterday because of official preoccupation elsewhere, but I asked the Minister of Finance whether or not the Minister of Trade and Commerce would be taking advantage of his visit to the United Kingdom to discuss the British

Inquiries of the Ministry free trade proposal, and the proposal made by the Prime Minister, with members of the United Kingdom government while he is there. Can the Prime Minister say whether or not those discussions will be taking place?


John George Diefenbaker: The Minister of Trade and Commerce would not take advantage of the opportunity, but no doubt while he is over there discussions on any matter regarded as of mutual importance in the increase of trade will be taken up and discussed.



IMPORTS FROM UNITED STATES INTO BRITISH COLUMBIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. W. McLeod (Okanagan-Revelsfoke):: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Agriculture of which he has been given notice. Has the government become aware of heavy imports of hay from the United States of America into western and southern British Columbia, mainly delivered by trucks and trailers? If so, is any action contemplated to protect the hay growers of the Okanagan and Shuswap areas, who find it impossible to meet this competition?


Hon. D. S. Harkness (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I came directly from another meeting to this chamber, so I did not get the hon. member's notice. I do not know what is the situation with regard to these hay imports. I had heard some time ago that there were small quantities coming in, but I will have the matter looked into and give him an answer as soon as possible.



ALBERTA


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. E. Johnston (Bow River):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. I sent him notice of this question two days ago in the hope that I would be able to ask the question yesterday, but because he was absent on important business I have left it until today.
In the light of the statement made only yesterday over the radio by Premier Manning of Alberta to the effect that oil production in Alberta is being cut back by 60 per cent of what the conservation board allows as a result of the present export restrictions on oil, would the Prime Minister make a full and complete statement as to the action the government proposes to take to correct this situation?
High! Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister): I am sorry I did not have the opportunity of reading the statement made by


the premier of Alberta, but I am sure he did not say that any reduction in exports to the United States was the result of any policy of this government. I do not want to go into the discussions the premier and I had, but I will say this, that at no time did he suggest that the reduction in any way resulted from any action by this government.
As a matter of fact, what happened was this. There was a very considerable market in the western United States following the Suez crisis. The situation in California particularly, and also in the other Pacific states, was such that a very material demand was made for Canadian oil. Within the last few months, however, particularly within the last period of about six months, there has been a continuing reduction in the demand for Canadian oil in that part of the United States which constituted the major portion of the Alberta market.
The reason for the reduction is that there has been a very large increase in oil production in the Middle East and distribution of that oil in that part of the United States has had the result of reducing demand for Canadian oil. We discussed together what action might be taken, and the matter is receiving consideration and will receive further consideration next week when the premier of Alberta is here in Ottawa.
I think it was the day before yesterday that Premier Manning phoned me with regard to a committee meeting-an administrative meeting-in Washington that begins on Monday and will continue for two days to deal with this problem of oil imports into the United States. The convener of the committee is Mr. Carson. The Alberta government will be represented by Mr. McKinnon of the resources board in Alberta. The government of Canada will have an observer or observers at that meeting, with a view to ironing out the difficulties that have arisen in recent months in consequence of the Suez situation, and I am hopeful that action may be arrived at mutually agreeable to both.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Algoma East):: I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether the representative of the government of Canada at this meeting to which he has just referred will have exactly the same status as or perhaps a superior status to the representative of a provincial government.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any question of superiority of status on the part of any representatives. This is a United States committee, meeting as part of the administrative machinery of the United States and having for its purpose the design I mentioned. Any representatives there will be there purely in the capacity of

onlookers following the course of events and subsequently, of course, having the opportunity to discuss the matters in issue.



PUBLIC BUILDINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. F. Brown (Essex Wesi):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Having in mind the labour situation in Canada as given by the Minister of Labour yesterday, and the statement that there is no shelf of public works projects on hand by the Minister of Public Works yesterday, would the government now be prepared to proceed with the immediate demolition of the buildings acquired by the previous government in preparation for the erection of a new post office building in Windsor, Ontario?
Hon. Howard C. Green (Minister of Public
Works): Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member will recall, I gave him a statement in connection with this proposed building some weeks ago. The situation then was that there was a lease on one of the buildings which was eventually to come down. I do not think there has been any change in the meantime. However, I shall be glad to look into the situation again.


Donald Ferguson Brown: May I ask a supplementary question. Would the government be prepared to proceed with the demolition of the buildings already acquired? That is the question.


Mr. Green:: I shall be glad to look into that situation.



WESLEYVILLE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Howard Charles Green: Yesterday the hon. member for
Bonavista-Twillingate (Mr. Pickersgill) asked me this question:
In that case, can he get on with the post office at Wesleyville, which was in this year's program and which has not yet been started?
I promised to make inquiries, and I now find that the previous government did not include anything in the estimates for this post office at Wesleyville. I am very hopeful that the new government will be able to take better care of the hon. member's constituency.


John Whitney Pickersgill: May I ask a supplementary question. Is it not true that the cost of that building is such that it does not have to be specified separately in the estimates, under the rules governing the estimates?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member with all his experience, both in the civil service and in the cabinet, should know better than to ask that question.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The answer is perfectly obvious.



WINDSOR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Donald Ferguson Brown: May I direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has the government received any communications from the council of the city of Windsor or any other association or any individual requesting financial assistance in the building of a civic auditorium? If so, what action has the government taken on the request?


John George Diefenbaker: I will have to take that question as notice.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE REQUEST FOR GOVERNMENT ATTITUDE AND PROPOSALS AT FORTHCOMING MEETING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question of the Prime Minister. In view of the fact that this is the last sitting day before the conference with the provinces to be held on Monday next, is it the intention of the Prime Minister some time during the course of our sittings today to outline to the house the attitude the government will take with the provinces on Monday, and possibly also indicate to us the proposals the government has in mind in the important matters which will be discussed with the provinces?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I know the authority I am about to quote will receive the approval of my hon. friend. I remember a similar question being asked at one time of that outstanding parliamentarian, Mr. Mackenzie King, and the answer given was that under the circumstances he felt the course to follow was to await the event.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Then may I ask a
supplementary question. Notwithstanding the high authority the Prime Minister has quoted may I also quote to him by way of interrogation, under the circumstances, an equally high authority-the Prime Minister himself-who asked a similar question of his predecessor.


John George Diefenbaker: And, Mr. Speaker,
received a similar answer in general.
1408	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry FINANCE



INQUIRY AS TO POSSIBILITY OF INCREASE IN PRICE OP GOLD

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. W. Martin (Timmins):: Mr. Speaker, my question would have been addressed to the Minister of Finance, but in his absence I would like to direct it to either his parliamentary assistant or possibly the right hon. Prime Minister.
The question is, in view of the meetings between Mr. Dulles of the United States and Mr. Pineau of France, and in view of the sudden jump in gold mining stocks, has the government any information on the possibility of the government of the United States raising the price of gold to help prevent the collapse of the economy of France in the face of the Algerian situation?


Mr. Richard A. Bell (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, notice of the question reached me just as I entered the chamber, and I have not had an opportunity to make detailed inquiries. Personally I am not aware of any such proposal as the hon. gentleman mentioned. I will make full inquiries, and if there is any information which can be communicated to the house a statement will be made either by the minister or by myself on Monday.



CASH ADVANCES ON FARM-STORED GRAIN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. A. Tucker (Rosihern):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question which I would like to address to the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce. When does he expect cash advances on farm-stored grain will be available to our farmers in the west?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Never.


John George Diefenbaker: Might I answer that question, Mr. Speaker. I am speaking now from recollection as to the actual date, but I think the proclamation will make possible the inauguration of the system of cash advances on either Monday or Tuesday next.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Prime Minister. Has his attention been drawn to an article in the issue of Time bearing the date of this coming


Monday, November 25, on radar defence of North America, which has appeared since certain questions were asked and answered in this house? Is he aware of the assertion in this publication that if there is an alert from the D.E.W. line in northern Canada there will be immediate consultation between the joint chiefs of staff in Washington and President Eisenhower, whose decision to give SAC's bombers at NORAD the go ahead could be made within five minutes?
In view of this statement being made after certain questions and answers in this house, can the Prime Minister not give us a clear statement about the position of the Canadian government and the Canadian Prime Minister in this event?


John George Diefenbaker: While Time is most time-worthy, I do not get it ahead of time and I have not seen it. Regardless of what appears in that magazine or any other, the situation is exactly as outlined by the Minister of National Defence.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What is that?


Mr. Coldwell:: Would the Minister of National Defence outline the position?


Hon. G. R. Pearkes (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, as the house knows an integrated command has been established at Colorado Springs, with integrated headquarters, having operational control over the air force allocated for the defence of the North American continent. The air officer commanding the R.C.A.F. air defence command at St. Hubert has the actual command of Canadian forces. In the event of an alert, or of information being obtained by any source that hostile or unidentified aircraft are moving over Canada, the air officer commanding at St. Hubert has the authority to dispatch aircraft to investigate the situation.
While those aircraft would be investigating any unidentified planes, reports would be made at once to the government of Canada and to the integrated air defence command at Colorado Springs. Based upon those reports and the situation as it developed, action would then be taken according to plans which had been drawn up beforehand and agreed upon by the different governments according to the varying sets of circumstances that might arise.


Major James William Coldwell: supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. What about the United States air force, and United States planes in Canada? Would they be

Inquiries of the Ministry
under the same obligation to report to the government of Canada as the Canadian commander?


George Randolph Pearkes: The squadrons of the United States air force now stationed in Canada are under the command of the Canadian officer responsible for air defence at St. Hubert.


Stanley Howard Knowles: wish to ask a supplementary question. What would be the case with respect to United States planes based in the United States? Is it possible for them to be dispatched over Canada on the decision of the United States government without the Prime Minister or the government of Canada being consulted?


George Randolph Pearkes: The consultations are already taking place and, as I indicated, a series of plans are now being drawn up which will be approved by the governments of Canada and the United States. If the situation were such that United States air. forces would be required for a particular operation over Canada, it may be assumed that that has been included in the preliminary plans and therefore it would be merely a question of advising the government of Canada that such and such a situation had arisen and such and such plans should now be put into force.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question arising out of the answer of the minister in connection with the Canadian command of United States squadrons in Canada. Does he mean by that that there is Canadian command over United States squadrons in Newfoundland, United States bases or leased bases in Newfoundland?


George Randolph Pearkes: I am referring to the squadrons which are allocated for the defence of North America now stationed in Canada. At some of those stations to which the hon. member has referred there may be other aircraft which are not assigned to the defence of the North American continent.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the minister whether the intergovernmental agreement to which he has just referred has embodied certain plans that are being worked out in regard to continental air defence, and whether that intergovernmental agreement will be discussed and agreed to in this house before it becomes effective as an intergovernmental agreement?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, that gives me an opportunity to review something of the past in this regard. On August 17, 1940, Mr. King and the president of the United States came to an agreement known as the Ogdensburg agreement. On the following day
a joint statement was issued. Mr. King referred to it and simply placed it before parliament on November 12, 1940.
Again in 1947, some 11 days after the house opened, Mr. King made a statement on defence co-operation with the United States and traced the history at length, but did not place the matter before parliament for decision. The only order in council made at any time that was tabled in the house with reference to this question was that covering the setting up of the joint defence board. In other words, in the experience of the past matters concerning security have been reported on generally. With the exception of the order in council setting up the defence board, which was tabled, nothing further was done than to report to parliament.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is not right.


John George Diefenbaker: That is the course that will be followed in this connection unless my hon. friends insist on a discussion of these matters. I leave it to their consciences to determine whether there should be a discussion on the whole question of defence and the arrangements between Canada and the United States. If the opposition will take the responsibility of saying they want these matters, which can be of dangerous import if given full publicity in the house, discussed in detail-


Paul Joseph James Martin: No one has asked that.


John George Diefenbaker: -it will be done, but the responsibility will then be theirs.


An hon. Member:: A straw man.


John George Diefenbaker: Would my hon. friends allow me to make my statement? In the past the course followed has been the one I have referred to. If my hon. friends want to depart from that course they have but to say so. We will then place all these matters before the house, and the responsibility will be theirs for what happens as a result of the widespread dissemination of this information. If either of my hon. friends, one of whom will no doubt be the leader of the opposition shortly, want the information personally or if the leaders of the other parties want it, it will be made available. I leave the responsibility with my friends of the opposition.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, I think on this side we have a full sense of responsibility in these matters and that we will discharge that sense of responsibility in the proper way. But in view of what the Prime Minister has said I should like to point out that the parallel he mentioned is not a parallel at all to the present situation and the proposed agreement.

Inquiries of the Ministry Perhaps the time will come when we will be able to debate that in some detail.
The arrangement to which he referred was a wartime one and it did not touch the control of Canadian forces in the sense of putting those Canadian forces under the control of an officer of another country, to which, Mr. Speaker, I am not objecting. I am just asking for information concerning the matter.


John George Diefenbaker: Oh, no, not objecting.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The Prime Minister said that when we were in power we had not brought agreements of this kind to the House of Commons for discussion and approval, but I *would remind him that the North Atlantic treaty pact, to which he has already referred in connection with this particular proposed intergovernmental agreement, was brought into the house, discussed, debated and approved, and that it was in accordance with that approval that Canadian forces in Europe were put under NATO command under a United States general, or it might have been a British general.
This was only done after parliament had all the information which was available. No secret information was brought forward, because that would have been quite improper on security grounds. All I suggest is that we are now contemplating another intergovernmental agreement of that character, and that the house has a right to all available information which will not infringe on security.


John George Diefenbaker: My hon. friend first referred to the conditions of wartime. I am not, for very obvious reasons, going to compare those conditions with the international situation today. But I do say this, and I ask my hon. friend to face the situation directly. Does he or does he not, speaking for the opposition, demand the production of the terms under which action will be determined? Does he demand particulars as to the degree to which the responsibilities of the officer in command and the second in command will be discharged? Does he want the production of the arrangements in that regard?
As far as the NATO agreement was concerned, as I recollect it the major reason for its presentation to parliament was that Canadian troops were to be taken outside Canada. It was determined in 1939 and earlier that Canadian troops should never be required to serve beyond the confines of Canada except with the consent and on the determination of parliament.
This is an altogether different matter. This is a continuation of the activities of the defence board which was set up. At no time throughout the years have its activities

been debated in the house. Indeed, it would have been presumptuous for us in the then opposition to ask for the terms. But I ask my hon. friend to be very clear and to answer this question. Does he, on behalf of the opposition, require the production of the terms existing as a result of the arrangements made between the governments of the United States and Canada on a matter that concerns the very safety of our country, information that I feel ought not to be given for very obvious reasons? Does he demand the production of that?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, that question is a very simple one and easy to answer. The Prime Minister, the head of the government, bears the responsibility for deciding what will or will not be produced in the house. So far as we are concerned, we would certainly not expect him to produce any information in the house which would prejudice the security of the country or the alliance; but, Mf. Speaker, the Prime Minister surely is in a position to judge whether the answers already given to questions in the house on this matter have not been confusing and contradictory, and whether it is not time that the matter was cleared up.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I have a right to answer that.


Mr. Mcllrailh:: Mr. Speaker is on his feet.


John George Diefenbaker: I say the answers have never been confusing or contradictory.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: I notice the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar rising. As this statement concerns a matter of undoubted importance and the house apparently is interested in hearing a limited discussion, I suggest that the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar be given the floor. Perhaps we could make the balance of the discussion as brief as possible, as I feel it has gone as far as it usefully can. Does the Prime Minister wish to say something?


John George Diefenbaker: I do not want to take advantage of the opportunity you have given me to answer except to say this-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the Prime Minister misunderstood me. I suggested that the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar be allowed to speak first and the Prime Minister can make his. statement afterwards.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has suggested that if any members of the house, particularly the leaders of the

groups in the house, require information of this nature to be produced he would be prepared to do so. When he said that I thought he was certainly abdicating his responsibility as Prime Minister and head of the government, and that the government must decide what involves security or the welfare of our country. If we should ask a question which impinges on security, it is up to the Prime Minister and the government to decide whether an answer will be given.
I was going to say that I think the opposition

I mean the official opposition-is in a special position in the house. My recollection over the years is that from time to time when former prime ministers were in office, particularly the late Right Hon. Mackenzie King, and matters of this sort arose the official opposition at least was taken into the confidence of the government through the leader of that opposition. I may say that was further extended at the time. I am not asking for that, because we have not the status the Leader of the Opposition has. I think a great deal of this sort of difficulty regarding security and so on could be obviated if the Prime Minister followed the precedent set by the late Right Hon. Mackenzie King.


Mr. Victor Quelch (Acadia):: I think the point made by the hon. member for Algoma East (Mr. Pearson) is a solid one, namely that if the government consider it unwise that this information should be given at this time, the responsibility for withholding it must rest with the government. They cannot ignore their responsibility by merely saying to the opposition, "If you demand that this information be given we will give it, and you must accept the responsibility." The responsibility) lies with the government. The Prime Minister, alone or with his other ministers, knows what this information is. He knows whether or not it will be detrimental to the country to disclose it. If he considers it unwise to disclose it, then he must take the responsibility for withholding it.


Mr. Speaker:: May I inform the house that if the Prime Minister speaks now he will close this debate.


John George Diefenbaker: The Prime Minister is not going to speak except to say this. As to what the hon. member for Acadia has said, that is naturally in keeping with responsible government; and what the hon. leader of the C.C.F. has stated is in the same category. If my hon. friends across the way had another theory I gave them an opportunity of having it carried out, and I noticed that they evacuated very quickly.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a supplementary question to the Minister of National Defence arising out of an answer he made earlier in this exchange, Did I understand him to say that although there are consultations now going on between Canada and the United States in connection with preliminary plans, in the event of action by the United States following an alert Canada would be advised but not consulted?


George Randolph Pearkes: I think perhaps there is some confusion in a word which is frequently used, "consultation". There is consultation in the planning stage, but perhaps the word "clearance" would be better when it comes to the operational stage.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps the minister would go one stage further and say whether Canada would be asked for that clearance at that so-called operational stage?


George Randolph Pearkes: That would be my understanding.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I
ask a supplementary question of the Minister of National Defence. I do not expect him to answer this today unless he is prepared to do so. He will recall that a few days ago I sent over to him questions and answers that had been put to General Partridge on September 6. Can the hon. gentleman say whether or not, before those questions and answers were published, he or the officers of his department, since July 12 last, were asked to give their approval and if they did, in fact, give their approval to those questions and answers before publication?


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes, Mr. Speaker. General
Partridge gave that interview before he was appointed to the command at Colorado Springs. There were certain references made to the D.E.W. line, the mid-Canada line and the "Pinetree" line in some of the questions which were answered by General Partridge, and he cleared these with the R.C.A.F. for security reasons only. In other words, he did not want to include anything in the answers he gave which might infringe Canadian security arrangements.


Mr. L. T. Stick (Trinity-Conception):: I
have a question to direct to the Minister of National Defence. Can he tell the house whether the United States northeast air command in Newfoundland and Labrador comes under the jurisdiction of the R.C.A.F. at St. Hubert? If it will infringe security I do not want an answer.

Inquiries of the Ministry


George Randolph Pearkes: As I stated earlier in this
debate which is not a debate, those squadrons stationed in Newfoundland allocated or assigned to the defence of the North American continent are under the command of the R.C.A.F.



STATEMENT ON USE OF CANADIAN BASES BY U.S. PLANES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Randolph Pearkes: While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, may I answer a question asked by the hon. member for Algoma East yesterday concerning the use of Canadian bases by United States planes. The hon. member's question was as follows:
In view of the statement reported today by the United Kingdom minister of defence that United States planes cannot use bases in Britain for military operations without first obtaining the consent of the British government, will the minister state whether the same policy is in force with respect to possible United States action from bases on Canadian soil?
After reading the press dispatch, I understand that the United Kingdom minister of defence, Mr. Sandys, was reported to have said on Wednesday that the consent of the United Kingdom government would be required before United States long range bombers could launch an attack from the bases they use in the United Kingdom. As there are no squadrons of the strategic air command of the United States based in Canada the question hardly arises.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Except Harmon field.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: I
should like to ask the Prime Minister if the government is giving any consideration to the setting up of a commission similar to the Hoover commission in the United States, in an endeavour to effect a reduction in unnecessary expenditures of government.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the answer is yes, full consideration is being given to that question. It is a matter that is rather comprehensive in its extent; therefore a complete investigation is being made.



TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. George C. Marler (St. Antoine-Wesl-mcunt):: I should like to direct a question

to the Minister of Transport. Is the Department of Transport proceeding with the construction program provided for in the current year's estimates, or are the expenditures contemplated for this purpose being reduced?


Hon. George H. Hees (Minister of Transport):: I think, on the whole, that the program that was started this year is going ahead.


George Carlyle Marler: May I ask a supplementary question. Do I understand from what the minister has said that there has been no action taken to stretch out the program with the object of reducing the expenditures in the current year?


George Harris Hees: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker.



DEFENCE PRODUCTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Carlyle Marler: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Defence Production. I should like to ask him if the Department of Defence Production is proceeding with the construction and procurement program provided for in the current year's estimates for the Department of National Defence, or whether the expenditures which were provided for in the estimates are being reduced.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Defence Production is merely a procurement and construction agency for the Department of National Defence. The estimates of the Department of defence Production are very small and have nothing to do with the actual cost of the goods and equipment which are purchased, or of the construction work which is undertaken, so that any change in the vote for works of this kind would have to be made by the Department of National Defence.


George Carlyle Marler: May I address the question then to the Minister of National Defence, and ask him whether his department is proceeding with the construction and procurement program which is provided for in the current year's estimates or whether in fact a reduction is being made in the expenditures which were contemplated for this purpose.


George Randolph Pearkes: Mr. Speaker, I think those questions should be put to me when my estimates are before the house.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys PRICE SPREADS



PUBLIC WORKS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Whitney Pickersgill: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: Have you not had enough yet?


John Whitney Pickersgill: I certainly have not. I have not got anything from the hon. gentleman, not even the public building that Mr. Winters started before the election.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Harris Hees: How long before the election?


John Whitney Pickersgill: About a year.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Did you say "for the
election"?


Lester Bowles Pearson: You do not hear very well.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


John Whitney Pickersgill: I think it should not be necessary for the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Harkness) to ask whether Mr. Winters started any public building after the election. That is self-evident.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I said, "Did you say 'for' or 'before' "?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Before.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I thought you said "for".


George Carlyle Marler: Mistaken as usual.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Now that the minister is in such good humour, perhaps he would tell us whether the planning section of the Department of Public Works has been dismantled.


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Speaker. That branch of the department is very active.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Then may I ask a supplementary question. Is it true that the head of that section has resigned? If so, would the minister tell us why.


Howard Charles Green: I have not heard of any such resignation.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Could the minister perhaps inquire, since he says that section is so active?


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to make such inquiry.
96698-90i



INQUIRY AS TO ESTABLISHMENT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct to the Prime Minister a question arising out of the great interest of the country in general in doing something about the wide spread between agricultural prices and retail prices. Has the Prime Minister anything further to report on the progress that is being made in establishing the royal commission on price spreads?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, the government will very shortly be in a position to report on the personnel and setting up of the commission. I hope to be able to make this announcement within a very few days.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Courtemanche in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

[Stage Direction]
Administration services-
213. Departmental administration, $530,620.
The Chairman:: This item will be found at page 43 of the blue book, the details at page 285.


Mr.   Johnsion@Bow River: Mr. Chairman, yesterday when we were discussing this item I was getting along very well until I just innocently, I guess, passed some remark about the trans-Canada pipe line and tried to put the responsibility where it belonged. Then there was quite a convulsion on the government side. In my remarks I did say that some of the press reporters were now becoming conscious of the injustice that was done on that occasion, and that at least some of them are trying to give publicity to the facts as they really existed on that occasion.
It is not my intention to go ahead and read the article, but I should like to point out that when I made reference to it yesterday I said it was either in the Financial Times or the Financial Post. I have the paper here in my hands, and it is the Financial Times dated Montreal, November 8. You will find the reference in an article written by "Tempus", an outstanding reporter, I may say incidentally, in this press gallery.
I was pointing out also, Mr. Chairman, that to a large extent responsibility for those unemployed in the construction work, the geological work and the survey work carried on by the department and by private industry in the development of gas rests with the policies of this government. I would hope
1414	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys that the Prime Minister, together with those who have responsibility for this loss of markets for the export of gas from Canada to the United States would do everything within their power to see that this situation is remedied and would give every encouragement to the export of gas into the United States so we should, in a measure at least, be able to solve some of our unemployment problems and certainly gain those much needed United States dollars which we owe to the United States.
I want to speak about oil for a minute or two. This morning I asked the Prime Minister a question with regard to the oil production situation. When he started to answer that question I thought probably he was of the opinion that I was blaming him and the government for the loss of those markets. I was not necessarily doing that at all. We have lost the market. What I was trying to find out-and I want to thank him for the extended remarks he made with regard to the matter-was what the government was doing or could do in order that we may be able to regain those necessary oil markets in the United States. I want to thank him again for the complete answer he gave.
When the hon. member for Calgary South was speaking on this subject the other day, he went to some length to point out the desirability of the government here and the government of the province of Alberta doing everything possible to see that the expansion of oil production in Alberta is continued, and particularly to see that arrangements are made whereby the exploration for oil shall be continued. He pointed out, and I agree with him entirely, that because of the lack of markets and the drop in our production, a serious unemployment problem in that industry is resulting; and of course that means an effect on many hundreds of people who are just ordinary small people and are certainly not those who are sometimes referred to as millionaires or multimillionaires.
There is one thing of which this house should be aware, Mr. Chairman, and that is that in the production of oil we are dealing with an industry that cannot, upon request, immediately start to produce the additional hundreds of barrels of oil that would be required in any case of emergency.
The only possible way in which we could meet an emergency-and we had an emergency during the last war which could have been disastrous-is through the continued exploration and continued development of our resources in Canada.	In
order to ensure immediate access to a supply of oil it requires not only months


but years of intensive study, exploration, work and development. Therefore this government should be very concerned with doing everything possible to see that the oil industry of Canada is permitted to carry on and expand its work.
I was interested in a remark made by the Prime Minister regarding a meeting which is to be held in the United States with a view to seeing what can be done to solve this problem of exports to the United States. In case, however, we cannot regain our lost market in the United States for the export of oil, then we should be giving very serious consideration to using our own market for the consumption of our product, thereby giving our own oil industry an opportunity of expanding both exploration and production. I am aware of some of the difficulties which might face us in this regard because in the eastern part of Canada, particularly in the Quebec section, they are importing oil which they can probably get a little cheaper from sources outside of this country. However, I do not think we should allow the safety of Canada, both from a military and an economic point of view, to be interfered with for the sake of a few paltry cents per barrel of oil.
This question is too big and too important to allow anything of this nature to interfere with the continued development of our oil industry. Furthermore, it seems to be the consensus of opinion today that the larger oil companies on this continent feel they would like to save the oil in Canada, particularly in Alberta, as a reserve for an emergency, and therefore are going to use all the oil they can get from other sources, especially when they can get it a little cheaper.
As I pointed out a moment ago, it seems to me that the large oil companies should take another look at this proposition, because unless we are allowed to continue our development and exploration, when they desire further production in this country it just will not be there. We have had to face a similar situation in another of our industries, namely the coal industry. This coal industry is one upon which you cannot call immediately for production to meet your demands. The industry must be kept in operation, kept active and alive, if it is to be in a position to supply requirements when urgently requested to do so.
I will not go into the question of coal at this time, because I understood the minister to say when the estimates were first opened that he would rather we dealt with this subject when we came to, I believe it was, item 238, under dominion coal board. I will

therefore respect his wishes in that regard. However, let me say again to the members of this house that this question of oil production and continued exploration would go a long way toward giving employment to those people who are now out of work because of our cut-back, and we should give this matter very sincere consideration. The government also should make every effort to see that our markets are regained for the export of oil.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, before the minister speaks I would like to say just a word or two about a matter in which I know he and his department are most interested and which has already been referred to in this discussion, namely the development of uranium mining in this country. This development, of course, has been spectacularly important and in its most spectacular aspects has perhaps recently been centred in the area of Blind river and Elliot lake in my own constituency. This area has now become the greatest uranium mining area in the world, and in Elliot lake there is growing up a fine, progressive and modern community which will mean a lot to that part of the north country.
I know the minister and his department will wish to help in every way they can with respect to this development, and perhaps one way in which they could help would be to expedite the building of a dock at Cutler, near Elliot lake, which would be especially important for the importation of coal for the mining area. Incidentally this dock was promised, without qualification, by the Prime Minister when he spoke in that area during the recent election campaign.
The Algoma area-and this is some indication of its importance to our economy-including Blind river and Elliot lake-will, it is expected, next year produce something over
14,000	tons of uranium oxide, which will mean a production of over 34,000 tons of ore per day from that one mining area. It is also expected that the value of Canadian uranium production next year will likely reach the figure of about $400 million, which will perhaps make it the metal of greatest value produced in our whole country.
The sales contracts covering this enormous production are practically all made with the United States government and as my hon. friend knows, are underwritten by the federal government. As an indication of the magnitude of this operation, I understand for that purpose sales arrangements have been underwritten up to the end of 1962 amounting to more than $1,600 million worth of products.
There has recently been expressed some uncertainty-indeed, this uncertainty was
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys expressed in this house last night-about the prospects of this mining industry. It has been suggested, and this suggestion has reached the press, that uranium as a source of atomic energy will soon be outmoded by what is called the fusion process, which is the joining together of two nuclei, replacing the fission process which is the splitting of the atom, and which of course requires uranium. It is also feared by some that the needs for uranium will be diminished by the development of what is known as the fast breeder process. Yet those who are informed on this matter and scientifically qualified to discuss it in a way which, of course, I am not, have stated-and I am referring now to the vice-president of research and development for Atomic Energy of Canada, Dr. Lewis,-that Canada's uranium future would not be in jeopardy through fusion, and Dr. Lewis went on to say that people are becoming confused between a scientific experiment and something which affects the economic future of the world.
Another fear has been expressed-and it was mentioned last night also during the discussion-as to what will happen to this industry when the current contracts, the magnitude of which I have mentioned, come to an end in 1962, a date very much in the minds of those people in this country who are working to develop these communities and this industry. I do not think we need to be pessimistic on this point. While it would be unwise to be pessimistic or to indulge in what I might call speculative optimism, yet I feel certain that the producers of this product in Canada will have continued markets beyond 1962; and perhaps it is a matter for some satisfaction and, in a sense, a reply to some of the more pessimistic forecasts, that the United States atomic energy commission which is, of course, a very important agency in the development of this mining has already secured options on Canadian production for several years beyond 1962.
I know, of course, as do other hon. members that the great bulk of this product is now going into military use, and perhaps I was in a somewhat incongruous position when I was Secretary of State for External Affairs inasmuch as in that capacity it was my duty and desire, as the representative of the government at international meetings, to do everything I could-and I am sure I had the support of the house in this-to make the use of uranium for destructive purposes unnecessary and impossible, but that at the same time, as the hon. member

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys for Algoma East, I was doing everything I could to encourage and develop the use of that product.
As I say, most of this material-almost all of it, in fact-goes into military use, and it is a matter of great importance that the government should do everything it can, and I am sure it will, to push the search for markets for this product for civilian purposes. To that end, as the minister knows, contracts have been signed with the United Kingdom and, I think, with the government of the Federal Republic of West Germany.
With the development of this peacetime, civilian use of uranium it will become increasingly important that the government should explore every possibility of reaching agreement with any friendly country for the use of this material, though, of course, every agreement of this kind, because of the nature of this material, will have to be reconciled with security requirements, and will also have to be in accordance with the provisions of the United Nations regarding the peaceful uses of atomic energy.
There is also, of course, the important progress made in recent years in the use of uranium as a source of electrical energy. That progress has gone farthest in the United Kingdom where, indeed, electrical energy derived from uranium is now competitive with the same power derived from coal. But the United States and other countries are also moving ahead in this field and I think we can feel, without going overboard with extravagant optimism, that as the use of this material for warlike purposes diminishes-and we all hope it will diminish-its use for peaceful purposes will increase, taking up the supplies of this product which are now going into the manufacture of weapons.
It is also a source of some satisfaction from a Canadian point of view to learn that we have the largest reserves of uranium of any country in the world, as far as we know at present, and it has been said that the United States reserves will be exhausted in about 10 years. I think it is not extravagant or unrealistic to look forward to the day when this uranium will be needed in our own country, to, as a source of electrical energy.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to put these facts on record in connection with a subject which is of increasing importance to Canada and the world; a matter which is of vital importance with regard to collective defence and which, I hope, will become equally important in developing means of collective progress, and I ask the minister to give every consideration, as I know he will, to whatever steps the federal government can take in this important development, especially, if I may

say so, with regard to that area of northern Ontario which has become the uranium centre of the world.
(Translation):


Mr. Villeneuve (Roberval):: Mr. Chairman, may I be allowed to say a few words at this time when the estimates of the department of Mines and Technical Surveys are being considered?
I wish at the outset to congratulate the hon. minister (Mr. Comtois) on his appointment to such a responsible position and to recall, incidentally, that the minister and myself are the only former students of Nicolet Seminary to sit in this house. May I also congratulate the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. O'Hurley) on his appointment to the position of parliamentary assistant to the hon. minister.
The points to which I wish to draw the attention of the minister have to do with technical surveys, particularly with the mapping services. I have no criticism to offer with respect to the technique itself which, in my humble view, is just about perfect, but I believe that the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys should give its maps the bilingual character which befits this country.
Whenever I order maps from the department, as I often do, I find that they are practically all printed in English only. I have no objection to that as long as maps are also printed in French, making them bilingual publications.
I have often examined the famous map showing the whole of Canada and I genuinely deplore the fact that this official map, which is certainly distributed all over the world, is printed in English only. In order to emphasize the truly bilingual character of Canada, the department should make this map bilingual, from now on, so as to give justice to both the main racial groups which make up our country.
I also notice that a map representing a section of my constituency, particularly the Roberval area, is almost entirely labelled in English, in spite of the fact that this particular district happens to be one of the most exclusively French-speaking in the country.
I am not making any charges against anyone but merely pointing out this fact in passing. Since the minister, his parliamentary assistant and his deputy-who are all in the house at this time-are all three Frenchspeaking, I hardly feel it necessary to labour that very important point. I thank them for the efforts they will no doubt make to satisfy us on that score.

(Text):


Mr. Fisher:: Mr. Chairman, the remarks I am going to make and the questions I intend to ask relate almost entirely to the publications of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I should perhaps explain that my contact with the publications has been as a librarian, providing prospectors and geologists with the various publications, and the point I want to make arises from my experience with the publications of the department.
The first general comment I would offer is that the publications of geological surveys, especially the earlier ones, contain some of the best accounts of history that are available. Unfortunately they are buried in those publications, and I would suggest that at some time someone in the department consider going back into the early reports, especially those of the 1850's, 1860's and 1870's, to take from them some of the excellent historical pieces on the trips of the surveyors across Canada.
The first question I would like to ask is how much co-operation with provincial geological surveyors is entered into in order to ensure that there is no repetition and that the publications or the coverage of each supplements the other. I have the feeling that there has been a certain amount of overlapping in the past. Second, does the department plan a cumulative volume of the provincial gazeteers that they are publishing at the present time one by one?
My third question is this. Does the printer of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys publications keep the typeset for the major publication such as memoirs? I am very appreciative of the fact that some of the more important memoirs are being reprinted, but if the typeset is kept I think more copies should be reprinted, because especially early in the series they are missing and at least in our area where prospecting is a major interest there has been quite a demand for them.
As a fourth question I would ask if the print is not kept set for reprints, when a reprint is made is there any plan for revisions in bibliography and any later information in connection with the area in order to insert it into the text?
The fifth question I would like to ask is the following. Is the ore dressing section carrying out any research now on the treatment of low-grade iron ores with natural gas being used as the heating process? I know they have been carrying out quite a number of experiments with low-grade iron ores, but it is this question of the natural gas which has arisen in our region where we have many low-grade iron ore deposits. If
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys a group, say the holders of iron deposits, brought samples to the department for bene-ficiating trials, how would the costs of these experiments be borne?


Mr. Comtois:: Mr. Chairman, my remarks will be brief, but I would like to comment on some of the points that have been raised by hon. members and answer the questions that have been put to me.
(Translation):
I am very grateful to the hon. member for Villeneuve (Mr. Dumas) for his kind remarks about myself and his high opinion of my department, which are quite different from the comments which the hon. member for Hull (Mr. Caron) had to offer a few days ago. Needless to say, I much prefer the remarks made by the member for Villeneuve. I would advise the hon. member for Hull to seek out that particular member and meet him more often for not only does this gentleman know a great deal about the mining industry but is familiar too with the department for which I am responsible.
(Text):
Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to the hon. member for Villeneuve for his kind remarks about myself and his high opinion of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, which are quite different from what was said in this house some days ago by the hon. member for Hull. Speaking of the sixth commonwealth mining and metallurgical congress held in Canada recently, I fully agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Villeneuve that the congress was a complete success. While the congress visitors were here in Ottawa I had the honour of unveiling a plaque at one of our mines branch buildings commemorating the holding of this important congress in Canada.
Concerning the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, I might say a study is being made by my colleague the Minister of Finance and myself. We hope to be able to make an announcement during this present session. We understand that a delegation representing municipalities in northern Ontario and northern Quebec is planning to call on us in Ottawa following an economic study which has been made for them by a firm in Toronto. I wish to assure the hon. member for Villeneuve and others who have spoken on this matter that the government is following the lead and zinc situation very closely. I am sure he is aware that the Canadian metal mining industry is presently well represented in Washington, where the federal tariff commission has started hearings on the question of proposed increased tariffs and quotas on lead and zinc imported into the United States.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I thank the hon. member for Laurier for his complimentary remarks on my appointment. I can assure the hon. members for Laurier and Stormont that I shall look seriously into the matter of the Ontario-Quebec boundary in lake St. Francis and see what I can do, within the limits of my authority, to assist in solving the problem they have brought to the attention of the house. We have a great knowledge in my department of triangulation and triangles in the technical field of our survey operations. It may be that I can transpose this knowledge into improving and stabilizing the Ottawa-Toronto-Quebec triangle.
I can assure the hon. member for Kootenay West that I would be most willing, if it be the pleasure of the house, to have the estimates of my department placed before the mines, forests and waters committee at a future session of parliament.
Replying to the hon. member for Mont-magny-L'Islet, I must say that I have been greatly impressed indeed by his very serious comments on the rights of the provinces and the dominion. Evidently there is nothing like being in the opposition to produce inspiration on the subsoil of the deep blue sea. Seriously speaking, however, Mr. Chairman, and with all due deference to the legal mind of the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet, I do not agree with him that I am the minister responsible for dealing with the question he has brought up.


Jean Lesage: I did not say that. I said your department had some responsibility.


Paul Comtois: In reply to the question of the hon. member for Edmonton-Strathcona I may say that the broad question of energy in Canada, including the matter of gas pipe lines, encompasses more than the authority of several of the departments and agencies of the government. It is partly for that reason that the government has seen fit to appoint a royal commission to study this important question. Furthermore, the full facilities of my department have already been offered to the royal commission that has been established to study all aspects of the energy question, and the department will continue to assist and to make information available to any group or organization interested in the national development of the resources of our great country.
I thank the hon. member for Calgary South for his concern about the salaries paid to staff members of my department. I can assure him that I hold these employees in high regard, and it is my plan to further their interests on all occasions.
I wish to say to the hon. member for Algoma East that my department is providing direct and important service to the uranium

mining industry and is working in close cooperation with the crown company, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. I wish to assure him that in all likelihood the research and other activities of my department in relation to atomic energy for peaceful purposes are on the increase.
(Translation):
I would also like to say to the hon. member for Roberval (Mr. Villeneuve) that I am grateful for his kind remarks. All those who have gone through the Nicolet Seminary have always remained good friends. Their opinions may vary but whether it be with regard to Nicolet or anything else, they always deeply respect one another and remain staunch friends.
(Text):
May I thank other hon. members who have spoken on these estimates. I fully share their concern for the well-being of the mineral industry in Canada, and I thank them for their interest in the operations and responsibilities of my department.
(Translation):


Jean Lesage: I want to congratulate the hon. Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Comtois) for the able replies he just made to the questions that were put to him. I have only one thing to ask him, and in doing so I will use the same comparison as he did. I hope that the serious problems which last night I brought to his attention, and to the attention of the government of which he is a member, will not be tied to a boulder and sent to the bottom of the blue sea. I hope he can assure me at once that those important problems will immediately be seriously considered by the government.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, may I say to the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet that I had possibly misunderstood the question he asked me last night. However, he can rest assured that I am aware of my responsibilities when the rights of the provinces are at stake, and that I will not fail to discuss those matters with my colleagues, at the proper time and place. He need not worry about the intentions, desires, and even opinions, of the members from the province of Quebec.


Jean Lesage: I only wish to point out to the
hon. minister that I feel that the proper time and place to study those problems is here and now.
(Text) :


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
214.	Explosives Act-Administration, operation and maintenance, $113,100.
Mr. Blackmore:: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether we could ask you to speak more

loudly. It is almost impossible to hear you down here. We cannot tell how you are getting along and what you are saying. I trust you will not mind my suggesting this to you.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall item 214 carry?


John Horne Blackmore: No, it is not carried. I want to ask a question. What is the nature of the Explosives Act to which reference is made in the item? What explosives are involved, and so on? We want to be able to judge the adequacy or inadequacy of the appropriation which is made.


Mr. Comiois:: Mr. Chairman, this appropriation provides for the administration of the Explosives Act and regulations thereunder. The act regulates the manufacture, testing, storage, sale and importation of explosives. By regulation the transportation of explosives by road and private railway is also controlled. The act does not apply to explosives under the control of the Minister of National Defence nor to transportation by vessel, aircraft or public railway.
The primary objective is to ensure the safety of the public and of those handling explosives. All explosives manufactured in or imported into Canada must be first authorized by the minister. Samples must therefore be submitted before manufacture or importation for testing and examination in the explosives laboratory maintained by this division. Explosives already authorized are regularly examined to ensure conformity with the formula declared at the time of authorization.
In addition to the above, the chemical staff advises and assists other government departments regarding properties of explosives and other materials which may have explosive properties and tendencies. I think this answers the hon. member's question.


Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to speak on this item but I do want to say something about tar sands. Can the minister tell me under what item that can be discussed?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: That is item 230, page 44.


Mr. Peters:: Do inspectors travel around to the various mines and check supplies of powder in storage, or is it simply a technical inspection as to the quantities of the ingredients of the explosive?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, if there are provincial regulations in effect, it is a matter for the provinces. We make no inspection except in those provinces where there are no regulations.
1419
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


William Arnold Peters: Are inspections made in the factories that manufacture the product?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Douglas Mason Fisher: There is one minor thing that interests me. I see there are three inspectors of explosives who all seem to be at the maximum salary. Is there any provision for them to get a further increment? Has there been a revision of their schedule?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, there has been a further increase.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
215.	Mineral resources division'-administration, operation and maintenance, $217,595.
Mr. Smith (Battle River-Camrose):: Would the minister tell us briefly the general purpose of this division, what it does and what plans it has for the future?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, the division maintains a record of mineral deposits, mining and allied operations in Canada, and a record of all legislation and taxation, both federal and provincial, affecting the mineral industry. Economic research in the mineral field is undertaken, involving investigation of a number of metals with special emphasis on their utilization, markets and strategic aspects. In order to carry out this work effectively, officers of the division must periodically visit mines, smelters, and metal processing plants currently operating, as well as new fields under development. The expansion and growth of the mineral industry, especially in iron ore, base metals, oil and natural gas, has increased the need for field investigations.


William Arnold Peters: Could I ask the minister how extensive is the check on assay reports and mine reports of ore bodies and/or grades, as well as reserves?


Paul Comtois: We make checks from information we get from the dominion bureau of statistics, some annual reports and our inspections; that is the way we get our information.


William Arnold Peters: What I had in mind was the checking of ore reserves, ore grades and so on. Do the inspectors from your department check to see that the grade established is a proper grade? This might not be important in connection with mines over which the department has no control, but there is one type of mining in which the department has a financial interest.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: This matter does not concern our department.


William Arnold Peters: May I ask, then, which department is concerned with emergency gold mining assistance?

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I do not see how one could expect the department to know the grades of ore and such things. This information is given in the trade by the annual reports of the companies, and up to now this check is not being made.


William Arnold Peters: Is it not a fact that the gold mining industry does make a regular report of the assay and the location of the ore faces they open up, and those maps and samples are sent to the department? I assumed they were sent to the department of mines, and that they entered into the consideration of payments under emergency gold mining assistance. A number of these mines are getting assistance when they are not in a position where they should, and other mines are not getting it because of the amount that is payable. I think this is quite pertinent.


Paul Comtois: If the question concerns gold mines that is quite different, because we give subsidies to gold mines. In addition to that the gold is purchased by the government, so we are more concerned about the cost because we have to establish the subsidies.


William Arnold Peters: Then from that answer do I take it your inspectors do make periodic inspections of that type of mining operation?


Paul Comtois: Yes, we have inspectors and we make inspections of gold mines in view of the application of the emergency gold mining assistance.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I think this is a fairly important point, Mr. Chairman, and I will give you an example. A short time ago there was a gold mine closed near my constituency. I was talking to a man responsible for the property, and he said there was no way they could bluff in this particular mine. They have a holding of rather low-grade ore which is right on the property. However, he said just to the east of them there were some gold mines-I think he was referring to the Porcupine camp-and they have some terrifically rich stopes which they have cemented up, and they are proceeding with the low-grade ore which comes under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. Apparently there is no way of knowing how thorough these inspections are, and whether there is any check of this subterfuge suggested by the hon. member for Timiskaming.


Paul Comtois: We have no knowledge of particulars of that sort, but if the hon. member has particulars or details to give us we will be glad to look into the matter and inform him on what is taking place.


Douglas Mason Fisher: It is very difficult for people such as ourselves to get at any specific information, but I can assure the minister that the three members who come from northern Ontario started our working lives as miners. We meet miners and we talk to them. We know the gossip, and this is the gossip or the accepted attitude in the mining communities, that many of these mines are doing these things. This casts an unfair reflection on the mines themselves. I have more respect for the responsibility of some of the mine leaders. I think in this respect your inspectors might possibly clear the air if they gave a bit more detail about the type of inspection they carry out, how thorough and how complete it may be.


Mr. Herridge:: I should like to ask one question. In the province of British Columbia the mines department has a branch similar to this. There are records kept of ore reserves and details concerning operations of the mines. In addition there is certain research work carried on by the provincial research council with respect to ores, processing and things of that sort. As one who is always interested in avoiding duplication of effort, can the minister inform the house as to what is done to avoid duplication of services or duplication of work in connection with the administration of this item?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: During the year we have many conferences between the federal department and the provincial departments of mines. Both departments are working in close co-operation, and I do not see what else could be done. We obtain very useful information from these meetings and our departments work closely together. I do not think there is any duplication.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am glad to hear that.


Paul Comtois: We try to avoid that, and any time it might happen we try to rectify it.


John Horne Blackmore: I want to make all allowance for the fact that the minister is new to the game, but we have to decide whether we are going to examine these estimates or whether we are not. If we are going to examine the estimates we have to have the information necessary to properly pass a given item. It seems to me that the questions asked by the new members from mining communities a few minutes ago were deserving of much more detailed answers than the minister was able to give.
If the minister and his advisers are unable to give this information, then if he says so, well and good.
It seems to me he should be prepared to tell us why he is not prepared to give us

more detailed information. When we are examining these estimates he ought to be able to tell us what he will do about being able to provide us with that information at a later time. While we are here in this committee examining estimates, the members' duty is to find out, in respect of every item, whether or not the money is wisely spent, whether it is adequate or inadequate and so forth. So if I might say this before we pass this item, then the minister will have something to keep his eye on and so will his advisers.


Mr. Brooks:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a word on this matter. I think it is a most unfair criticism that has been made by the hon. member for Lethbridge. The minister answered the questions to the satisfaction of the hon. members who asked them. I think they are the people the minister is obliged to satisfy. If they have any further questions to ask it is up to them to ask them. I do not think the criticism made by the hon. member for Lethbridge is altogether fair.


John Horne Blackmore: I must confess that I had the impression that neither of the hon. members was satisfied but that they desisted from asking further questions because of inexperience.


An hon. Member:: Let them speak for themselves.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall item 215 carry?


Douglas Mason Fisher: On that point, Mr. Chairman, may I say that I am not satisfied with the answer that was given. However, my reason for desisting was not so much my lack of experience but the fact that I thought I might either be making a nuisance of myself or embarrassing the minister. So I was prepared to let the matter go, because I know this is information I can find out for myself.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall item 215 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Surveys and mapping branch-
216.	Surveys and mapping branch administration, $69,106.
(Translation):
Mr. Dumas:: Could the minister tell us if the surveys branch has completed all the work planned for it last winter and last spring?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I am sorry but I did not understand the hon. member's question.


Armand Dumas: Could the minister tell us if in the last season the surveys branch has completed all the work planned for it? In other words, were all the aerial photography contracts planned completed last summer?
1421
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Paul Comtois: Does the hon. member's question apply to the province of Quebec only or to the whole of Canada?


Armand Dumas: To the whole of Canada.


Paul Comtois: I thought the hon. member referred only to his area.


Armand Dumas: No, I was inquiring about the whole of Canada.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: As regard aerial photography for the whole of Canada, we have practically completed the whole work except for some areas of the Arctic where the work under the contract extends over a period of six years. I believe this is the only area which has not been completely photographed. There are also some areas where, in spite of the instructions issued, the work has not been completed, for some reason or other, either because of bad weather or some other drawback or unforeseen event. However, all the required arrangements have been made and everything is under way from the national point of view.


Armand Dumas: After recess or some time later while these estimates are being considered, perhaps the minister could indicate the percentage of aerial photographic work completed during the last season on the basis of the work planned for that season.
I should like to ask the hon. minister one or two questions about the same matter.
I wonder if, a little later, he could give the house the number of aerial photo contracts awarded during the last season, together with the names of the companies to whom such contracts were awarded?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member should perhaps ask those questions on the orders of the day, because we would have...


Armand Dumas: I thought that the most appropriate time to ask that type of question was when the department's estimates are being considered.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: To give all the details he is asking for, we would have to look up the records right away and. . .


Armand Dumas: I am not asking for an immediate reply, but perhaps in the course of the afternoon. After all, the department must have called for tenders to have this air photo project carried out, and tenders must have been considered before the department decided who were to be awarded the contracts. It seems to me that department officials could
1422	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys tell me immediately to whom contracts for aerial photography were awarded during the past season. It seems elementary to me. However, I do not insist on an immediate answer to this question. The department's officials may not have the data at hand; but I would like them to be able to supply them at the next sitting this afternoon.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I should be pleased to supply this information with regard to awarded contracts. No member of the opposition can very well attack them, as they were mostly prepared or given out before June 10 last.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I would like the hon. member to understand that there is on my part no intention to criticize. I am chiefly interested in knowing whether most of the contracts awarded to the successful tenderers were actually carried out, and I should like to know the names of the companies that were given the contracts.


Paul Comtois: This information shall be supplied to the hon. member this afternoon.
(Text):


Henri Courtemanche: Shall item 216 carry?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: One o'clock, Mr. Chairman.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Surveys and mapping branch-
216. Surveys and mapping branch administration, $69,106.
John Horne Blackmore: I wonder if the minister would give the house a general idea of the extent of the work done under item 216 in 1956 and thus far in 1957; that is to say such information as will enable the people of this country to appreciate what we are getting for the amount of money requested in this item.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, this item provides for the expenditures of the surveys and mapping branch administration unit, which is composed of the branch director and a staff of 13 persons. Its functions entail the technical and administrative co-ordination, and direction of the following operational divisions: first the topographical survey, including national air photographic library and Canadian board of geographical names; second, Canadian hydrographic surveys; three, legal surveys and aeronautical charts


division; four, geodetic surveys of Canada; five, international boundary commission- Canadian section; six, map compilation and reproduction division. This covers only the administration of the branch.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
217.	Geodetic survey of Canada-administration, operation and maintenance, $577,258.
John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister please tell the house and the country what is the general nature of the geodetic survey, and what would be the value of such surveys to Canada?


Paul Comtois: There are two items or sections which might give the answer to that question. Firstly there is the economic part which is to provide for horizontal and vertical control by means of precise triangulation, precise traverse, shoran trilateration and precise levelling for the mapping and charting of Canada, so that all other surveys may be co-ordinated on a single datum on a nation-wide scale; to provide the horizontal and vertical co-ordinates and mathematical data required for development projects such as the St. Lawrence seaway, hydro-electric power developments, engineering projects, harbour improvement schemes, and oil exploration operations; to determine the position of survey stations in terms of precise astronomical latitudes and longitudes for control in the demarcation of provincial boundaries, for example, the 60th parallel of latitude.
The second is the scientific part which is to undertake investigations leading to a more precise determination of the size and the shape of the earth; to develop and test improved survey methods and improved methods of carrying out survey computations. To co-operate with other national geodetic organizations, through the international association of geodesy, in the solution of problems in geodesy such as the mathematical solution of long geodetic lines, the adjustment of shoran nets of trilateration, and the determination of the attainable precision in various types of geodetic work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
213. International boundary commission. $62,748.
Armand Dumas: I would like to ask the minister if he could tell the house if the officers of the survey branch were satisfied with the experiments made last summer using the tellerometer for measuring distances and if it is the intention of his department to intensify the use of this instrument?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I can say we are very satisfied and that the officers who use the instrument were absolutely satisfied with the results.


Armand Dumas: I understand it is the intention of the department to intensify the use of this instrument.


Paul Comtois: We plan to purchase some more units.


John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister tell the house of two or three of the problems which are now before the commission and under discussion with respect to this item.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Would the hon. member mind giving more details; I did not understand exactly what he meant by his question.


John Horne Blackmore: I notice this is the international boundary commission, including the topographical surveys, and I would just like to know if the minister could give the house two or three of the problems which are currently before that commission for consideration at this time.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: The problem actually is to keep in good order and condition boundaries which are already determined and agreed upon and to clear the problems that may exist on the said boundaries.


Mr. Irwin:: I presume that under the control of the international boundary commission is the question of boundary markers. Now with regard to the marker at Point Roberts which is the last of six which were, I believe, set up on the original boundary demarcation when it was first laid out from the Rocky mountains to the Pacific coast, there is a situation of which I do not know whether the minister is aware. To the south of that marker, on the United States side, the state of Washington has acquired eight acres of land which they are clearing for use as a park. The Canadian government, however, has paid no attention to their side of the marker; as a matter of fact the marker on the Canadian side is sitting on private property. To illustrate how stupid this thing can get, the owner of that property has actually paid improvement tax on the marker itself. I would suggest that the department get in touch with the provincial government and try to make arrangements to clear six or seven acres of land north of the boundary and make that land into a park, right on the Pacific coast.
It might interest you to know that the United States carefully looks after their side of the marker; it is carefully pointed up and kept cleared and well defined whereas the Canadian side is entirely neglected and I do not see why.


Paul Comtois: I thank the hon. member for bringing these facts to my attention and I will bring the matter to the attention of the international boundary commissioner for Canada.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I would like to bring to the attention of the minister that some years ago 

and I am now dealing with the functions of the board for geographical names-many organizations in my own constituency were very interested in getting a mountain peak named after a very prominent pioneer and citizen who was also a very prominent Conservative. I find some very unusual things with respect to geographical names. With regard to this outstanding citizen who made a great contribution to the Kootenay district in the early days, it has not been possible to name some physical feature in his memory, and yet it has been brought to my attention that in one case a creek has been named after a temporary pot washer in a survey camp. As one strongly in favour of paying tribute to pioneers, both federally and provincially, may I ask what procedures are followed by this board with respect to the naming of physical features of this country.


Paul Comtois: The board is appointed and consists of a representative of the dominion government and a representative from each province. It holds a regular meeting once a year to discuss questions which come under its jurisdiction, receives suggestions from all over the country, studies the recommendations and prepares a report.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: If I send my suggestion to the minister will he take it up with the appropriate people and give it a boost?


Paul Comtois: Certainly, I will look into it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
220.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $122,000.
James Alexander Smith: I
wonder if the minister would tell the committee the nature of the equipment required under this vote.


Paul Comtois: This vote provides for the acquisition of technical and non-technical equipment for both field and headquarters use, such as transit levels, altimeters, photometrical supplies, camp and field equipment, motor vehicles, canoes, outboard motors, small hand tools and so forth.


Charles Edward Johnston: I should like to ask the minister what is being done in connection with the development of tar sands in northern Alberta.


Paul Comtois: That does not come under this item. It comes under item 230.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1424	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Canadian hydrographic service-
221.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's annual contribution of $4,125 to the international hydrographic bureau, $3,395,513.
Mr. Kirk:: On this vote, Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a brief reference to the grounding of C.G.S. Baffin on Black rock, a well marked obstruction off the coast of Nova Scotia on July 4, last. In so far as the hydrographic survey is concerned, I have in the last eight years had many contacts with the officials of the department and I have always found them very efficient and courteous, and I should judge from the report given by the minister on November 11 last, that the minister's finding is the same. I do know that the work being done is greatly appreciated along our coast.
But there is one matter we cannot understand, and that is how a ship equipped with all the modern electronic and navigational aids such as the Baffin has could run into such a difficulty. The report the minister gave on November 11 has one sentence in it that I should like to bring to the attention of the house. An inquiry was held, and the report brought out the fact that the grounding was due to a combination of circumstances but not to any negligence on the part of the hydrographic officers navigating the ship. From my knowledge of those navigating officers and of the hydrographic staff I do not find that hard to understand, but from the point of view of those who write articles and editorials in newspapers in the province of Nova Scotia, it is more difficult to follow.
What was this peculiar combination of circumstances which caused the grounding of the ship? Two or three days ago I asked the Minister of Transport if he would be willing to table the report of the inquiry which was carried out by his department-the report to which the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys referred to on November 11- but the Minister of Transport said the report was not a report made under the Canada Shipping Act; that it had been carried out by one of the officers of his department and, as such, he did not consider it appropriate for publication. But I think there are a great many Nova Scotians along the coast who are very much interested in the cause or causes of this grounding. The ship had all the modern navigational aids, and, as the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys said in his statement, they were the type of aids used on another ship, the Kapuskasing, and they had been found very accurate.
It may well be that something unusual occurred in the use of these instruments. They may have been found defective, and if so I think we are entitled to know, because instruments of this type are being used by


fishing boats and many other types of ships all along our coast. If anything of this nature caused the trouble I think it would be for the good of the public to know whether fives are being endangered or public property being subjected to undue risk. That being so, may I ask the minister if he will table a report and give us a full explanation of what he means by the phrase "a combination of circumstances".


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I will certainly table the report. I cannot say it will be the report of the Department of Transport but it will be the report we have in our department.


Thomas Andrew Murray Kirk: Did I understand the minister to say he was ready to table the report he has in the department?


Paul Comtois: Not the report of the Department of Transport but the report we have, presented by our officers in our department.


Thomas Andrew Murray Kirk: The minister is willing to table that in order to give us a chance to find out the reasons for what occurred?


Paul Comtois: The reason is very simple. Some confusion arose in the reading of the instruments. There was some confusion, I understand, in the reading of the position of the ship-what is called the Decca positioning -that is the instrument used on the Baffin. That does not mean it was not good. Anyone can cut his finger on a very good knife. It was just a mistake or a misinterpretation. Anyway, the accident happened without there being any negligence on the part of the staff or the officers there, and that is the report we have.


Thomas Andrew Murray Kirk: I still am not sure whether the minister said he would table the report.


Paul Comtois: I am ready to table the report I have in my department.


Mr. Carter:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to follow up the questioning of my colleague who just took his seat. Will the minister clarify the chain of command on these hydrographic ships? There are some rumours to the effect that on hydrographic ships there is a divided command between the captain of the ship who is not classified as a captain but as a sailing master and an officer of the department who is classified as the officer in charge. I think the public would like to know just where the dividing line runs in the duties, responsibilities and authority of these two individuals. For example, which one of them is regarded as the senior officer? Which one is regarded as being responsible for the safety of the ship and the safety and fives of the crew? Who decides when the boat shall sail, when it shall anchor and

where it shall anchor? Who decides when it is fit to lower the boats and land men on a lee shore? There is some feeling that part of the confusion to which the minister has referred is attributable to the confusion in command and I think it would be well for the minister to clear that up.
I noticed that in his reply to the question asked by my colleague the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare the minister mentioned that the instruments were not working properly or were not giving accurate readings. I did not quite understand what his answer was in that respect but the question I want him to clarify is this. Just what was happening to the instruments? Did they fail? Were they not accurate? Was the captain in charge of the ship relying solely on instruments and was he not taking the usual precautions which every navigator would take regardless of instruments?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: It is difficult for me to give those details at the present time. If the hon. member will grant me some time in which to compile them I will table those details about the matter.


Chesley William Carter: Thank you very much.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
222.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $210,225.
John Horne Blackmore: Before this item carries, Mr. Chairman, would the minister give the house some idea as to what buildings, works and lands were acquired in the year 195657? There is quite a lot of money involved and I feel there should be some record of what the money was spent for. I wonder if the minister could enlighten us on that matter?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I think I answered that question on Item 220.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
223.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts, including a grant of $500 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $689,686.
(Translation):
Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the hon. minister could now answer the questions I put to him before recess.
(Text):


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the comments of the hon. member for Ville-neuve the situation regarding aerial photography is that most of our contracts are given to the three largest operators in Canada who are as follows: Photographic Survey Corporation, Toronto, Spartan Air Services Limited, Ottawa and Air Surveys Limited, Vancouver. I know of no reason for any delay in completing our contracts other than
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys weather conditions. It is because of such occurrences that the department is most anxious to complete the aerial photographic coverage of the mainland of Canada in order to commence our plan for a similar coverage of the Arctic islands in 1958. At this date the mainland in Canada for all practical purposes is complete but due to problems of weather small areas may not be completed for another season or two.


Thomas James Irwin: Mr. Chairman, I have a question or two on this item which I would like to have cleared up before it passes. On looking at the details of the item I notice there is an amount of $500 as a grant to the Canadian Institute of Surveying and Photogrammetry. I am not quarrelling with the amount or the purpose of it but on the large sheet which is attached to the blue book under column 20 which is headed "Contributions, grants, sudsidies, etc. not included elsewhere" is an item for this department amounting to $9,405,485. I notice throughout the estimates of this department there are assorted amounts for grants, subsidies and so forth. Is the figure of $9 million-odd shown on the chart the sum of all those which are shown in the book or is it in addition to them because according to the heading of the column it is additional? Would you please clarify that?


Paul Comtois: The grants and subsidies are included in the emergency gold mining assistance and you will find this major item later on. Does that answer your question?


Thomas James Irwin: So we can assume that the item shown on the large sheet is in addition to those tabulated in the book, is that correct?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: They are all tabulated in the book including the gold mining assistance.


Thomas James Irwin: That item is in addition to what is in the book?


Paul Comtois: No, no. It is not additional, it is the same thing.


Thomas James Irwin: It is included?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
224.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys,
Mr. Mclvor:: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to express appreciation to the officials of this department for the way they have made the maps of Canada available for us.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1426	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Geological surveys-
227. Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in the geological sciences, an amount of $1,875 for Canada's share of the cost of the committee on mineral resources and geology, London, England, and an amount of $40,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $2,454,067.
William Arnold Peters: Mr. Chairman, does this item include grants to the provincial mining schools like the Haileybury mining school and the one at Port Arthur?


Paul Comtois: No, Mr. Chairman.


William Arnold Peters: Are grants made by the department to these mining schools?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: No, Mr. Chairman.


Armand Dumas: I wish to mention that those interested in prospecting and exploration in my constituency and in northwestern Quebec generally were very pleased to see that early last spring the department decided to publish the information gathered by the Dominion Gulf Company during the course of the years 1947, 1948 and 1949. I realize that the department has already published 21 or 22 of these aeromagnetic surveys and I notice that there are 10 or 12 yet to be published. Can the minister tell the house if the 10 or 12 additional maps will be published soon and available to the public in the near future?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I am informed that we are proceeding with all diligence in producing these maps and they will be published as soon as possible.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Mr. Chairman, further to what the hon. member for Calgary South had to say last night, I should like to know whether the geological survey branch of the department has a difficult time keeping geologists at the present salaries. The hon. member for Calgary South intimated that they did. What has been the turnover? I should also like to have a break-down of the $40,000 granted to universities for geological research in terms of schools and types of research. For example, I should like to know whether this money is used to send someone out in the field or whether it is for laboratory projects. Third, I should like to know whether the money is apportioned through provincial channels or do applications come directly to the geological survey branch? If applications come directly, I should like to know what the total amount applied for is. I am assuming that there has been more applied for than has actually been granted.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: In 1953-54 there were 13 geologists appointed and seven left in the same year. In 1954-55 12 were appointed


and three left. In 1956-57 there were seven appointed and 15 left. In 1957-58 we have taken on nine and four have left. From 1953-54 to 1957-58 we have taken on 41 and 29 have left.


Douglas Mason Fisher: Does the minister not agree that these are rather catastrophic figures? Is he planning to do something about the matter and does he think salary boosts would alter the situation to a certain extent?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Of course if salaries were higher we could keep more than we do. That is all I can say to that.


Leonard T. Stick: Mr. Chairman, I have a matter which I consider to be very important to bring to the attention of the minister. As he may or may not be aware the boundary between Newfoundland-Labrador and Quebec has never been settled. Newfoundland was awarded a large part of the Labrador territory by a decision of the privy council many years ago. There was not a dispute but a disagreement as to who had jurisdiction over large sections of Labrador, and many years ago a case was taken to the privy council for decision. That course was agreed to by the province of Quebec and by the dominion, as it then was, of Newfoundland.
As a consequence of that decision, which was incorporated in the terms of union, the boundary between the province of Quebec and Newfoundland-Labrador has never been properly defined. I have no desire to raise any quarrel between Quebec and Newfoundland but, as the minister is probably aware, big mineral developments are taking place in this territory. I understand that there are huge iron ore deposits on both sides of the border so that these companies eventually, and probably pretty soon, will have to find out to whom they are to pay their royalties, whether to the province of Newfoundland or the province of Quebec.
I know that this may not be the minister's responsibility but I was given to understand that such surveys are made by the minister's department on request from the provinces. This matter has not reached the stage yet where it is very important but it will soon. Speaking as far as Newfoundland is concerned, may I say that we do not want one inch of territory from Quebec to which we are not entitled. The minister's department may be called upon to carry out such a survey. I should like to know whether a request has come to the minister either from the province of Newfoundland or the province of Quebec to carry out such a survey, and if a request came would the minister be prepared to carry out a survey?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: We have never had any request either from Newfoundland or Quebec. If we receive a request we will certainly consider the application for such a survey.


William Arnold Peters: Could we have a break-down with respect to the question asked by the hon. member for Port Arthur concerning grants to schools and what schools such grants go to?


Paul Comtois: As this would mean making quite a long report I would ask leave to defer the giving of the information until the next sitting of the house in committee of supply. I will certainly be glad to give all the information.
While I am on my feet, may I reply to the question of the hon. member for Port Arthur. First, there is very close co-operation between the provinces and our geological survey, and I do not know of any duplication of effort. To answer his second question concerning provincial gazetteers, I do not think we plan at the moment to have a cumulative gazetteer of Canada. In answer to his third question, I do not know if the queen's printer keeps the type set up for publications of our department. I do not think he does. To answer his fourth question, at the moment we are carrying out experiments on reducing iron ore with city gas and we plan to do it with natural gas when it is available in Ottawa.
In so far as the fifth question is concerned, I would say that there is no charge to industries for research we undertake at their request, except for very special and costly projects.


William Arnold Peters: In connection with this research, may I ask the minister if any assistance is given to universities or in any other manner towards the development of the lignite field in northern Ontario? In addition, has the department assisted in developing a process for the removal of cobalt from the ores in the Cobalt area?


Paul Comtois: The answer to the first part of the question is no. The grants given are just for geological studies.


Douglas Mason Fisher: In connection with the information given as to a break-down of the schools, could that be put into the annual report? It may be in there but I have not been able to find it. I think it is interesting and fairly important, especially if in the future the department might expand the size of the grants in aid in this particular regard.


Paul Comtois: I will agree to that, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Holowach:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask a few questions of the minister with respect to these items. I wish to ask him a few questions which have been in my mind
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys ever since this department had its estimates submitted to us. It is a question that could properly be asked of every one of the ministers whose estimates we are asked to consider. Common sense tells us that our main function at this time is to approve only those estimates which are absolutely essential to the maintenance of indispensable services. I think the only protection that the taxpayer of this country has is that we make careful examination of the mass of figures that are submitted to us in these estimates.
In order to protect the taxpayer's purse I think we ought to have a little bit of information with respect to the computation of these figures. I think one of the dangers in the manner of examining these estimates is that they are brought into the house and after a few political speeches on the need for spending more money on some pet local projects, they are passed. I think we would be fooling ourselves if we were to adopt the attitude that there is no waste in federal bureaucracy. This is no reflection on the dedicated men and women who are in the civil service, but it is a reflection on the situation which is a natural consequence of extravagant and ever-growing government in the past 22 years. Therefore in this connection I should like to ask the minister in what manner are some of these cost items determined in connection with item 227? What manner of checking is used to determine these to be indispensable? Are these estimates of costs submitted on the basis of current prices and wages or do they contain probable increases; if so, what percentage-wise?
Might I ask the minister, too, if in the discharge of his responsibilities and a preliminary examination of these estimates he is satisfied all of these items are absolutely indispensable? What consideration has he given to inducing private enterprise, by bid, to undertake some of these projects and make their information known to the government and to the public? I am not opposed to essential spending, but it seems to me that we are considering the original estimates of the previous Liberal government and the question is, is this a government which is dedicated to eliminating waste and extravagance? If it is, when and where do we start?


Paul Comtois: As I told the committee yesterday, Mr. Chairman, these estimates were prepared for 1957-58. I am not quite responsible for everything that is presented today. However, I might say that since I was appointed on August 7 I have been looking very carefully at the work that is done in the department and how it is being conducted. I have been in another department in Quebec

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys for 20 years and I have always been sharpeyed about expenditures. I know that in this department every expenditure, every estimate is carefully studied and discussed by the officials of the department, then with the executives, then with the deputy minister and then with the treasury board. They are very carefully studied.
In so far as the estimates for 1958-59 are concerned, when they are presented at the next session I shall be fully responsible for them and I shall give hon. members every detail they request and the reasons for any expenditures in connection with any particular work.


George Carlyle Marler: I thought I understood what the minister just said, Mr. Chairman, with regard to these estimates. I take it, of course, that in submitting them to the committee he does stand behind them. He is not suggesting that the expenditures which are covered by them are not to be made; I hope that was not the purport of his remarks. I take it from what he has said that inasmuch as his government made a great issue of this question of waste and extravagance during the election campaign, now that he has had an opportunity of seeing the spending program of his own department he is satisfied there is no waste or extravagance in the items with which we are dealing now?


Alexander Bell Patterson: In view of the statement just made by the minister, I wonder if we are to assume that the statement made by the Minister of Finance does not apply to this department, when he said they were not prepared to support all the projects outlined in the estimates. Is that assumption correct or are there some of these projects that the government is not backing?


Paul Comtois: I may say that the major
projects are going ahead. I cannot go any farther than that.


Alexander Bell Patterson: I do not think that answer is quite satisfactory. I asked if there are any of these projects in these estimates that the government, the department and the minister are not going to back?


Paul Comtois: Not in this department.


Thomas James Irwin: Am I to understand from the minister's answer that all the estimates submitted here by the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys are going to be accepted by this government, without any exception? Is that what I understood from the minister's answer?


Mr. Robichaud:: Everything is in good shape.


Paul Comtois: There is always research going on in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. It has been started and must go on.

We must meet the demands that are made by some other departments of government.


Stanley Howard Knowles: appreciate the difficulty in which we seem to be placing the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, Mr. Chairman, but I think he should understand that in our review we have the right to put this type of question to every minister as he brings his estimates before us. The Minister of Finance, on October 15 of this year, when he tabled the blue book of estimates and thus made them this government's estimates, said that nevertheless there were some of the programs contained in those estimates that the present government did not intend to proceed with and he said this, as reported at page 11 of Hansard:
-such changes as this government proposes to make in the current year's programs will be brought to parliament's attention when the individual items affected are being considered by the committee of supply.
We have already had one department's estimates, namely those of the Secretary of State, which we have gone through. No changes were made in the estimates of that department. The point of my question now is to find out whether any changes are being made in the estimates of this department. Is it clear then that as far as this minister is concerned, what the Minister of Finance said does not apply to him but rather that all the estimates under this department will be voted in full by this session of parliament?


Hédard-J. Robichaud: Maybe it applies only to the Minister of National Defence.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall item 227 carry?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: take it that silence gives consent but perhaps it might better be put on the record.


Paul Comtois: It seems that perhaps the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre was not in the house when I made my first statement when starting with the presentation of my estimates.


Stanley Howard Knowles: was in the house.


Paul Comtois: If the hon. member was not in the house, I will read again what I said, if he agrees.


George Carlyle Marler: Go ahead.


Paul Comtois: As reported at page 1380 of Hansard I said this:
Since the date of my appointment as minister of this department I have carefully examined these estimates, together with my officers, and as a result it has been found possible to divert approximately $500,000 to other requirements which

were not foreseen at the time these estimates were prepared. Specifically, about $250,000 was used to help defray the cost of the general salaries revision of May 1, 1957, and a smaller amount was used to assist in settling accounts resulting from the grounding of the C.G.S. Baffin in July, 1957. Hon. members will appreciate that had this action not been taken it would have been necessary to request additional funds by way of supplementary estimates in order to cover these items.
It must be borne in mind that the efforts of my department are concerned mainly with national development and scientific research and, in such directions, a maximum effort is required at the present time to enable us to keep pace with rapidly changing requirements in the scientific and technical fields.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I recognize the statement the minister made yesterday. I may say to him that I am not quarrelling at all with the reallocation that he made within the framework of his estimates. I am not even quarrelling with the fact that he is not seeking a reduction in any of his estimates. What we are trying to find out, department by department, is whether the Minister of Finance meant what he said when he declared that somewhere along the line some estimates would be reduced. As far as this department is concerned, I take it that there is no reduction in the total amount of money asked.


Hédard-J. Robichaud: In view of what the minister has just said, can the minister specify what services in his department were curtailed in order to allow a saving of $500,000?


Paul Comtois: There was no service curtailed. It was just that some adjustments were made in some branches, projects that need not necessarily be completed this year. That is the only change that was made.


Mr. Hahn:: In his address yesterday the minister indicated that approximately $500,000 has been diverted to other requirements. In diverting an estimate, I take it that you took from one estimate that figure of $500,000, and added it to another. Would he indicate which one was reduced and to which one an addition was made so that we would have more specific figures to work with?


Paul Comtois: Some change could be made on account of the delays in deliveries of some purchases that had been ordered. Owing to those delays we could divert some moneys and apply them on another item.


Frederick George Hahn: Would the minister indicate-


Paul Comtois: In the same vote, I mean.


Frederick George Hahn: Within the same vote itself?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Frederick George Hahn: So the vote itself is not changed?


Paul Comtois: No.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Mr. Barbes:: May I first congratulate personally the minister for having been called as a member of the present cabinet. Then may I refer to a recent book entitled "Prospecting in Canada" published by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. My request would be for a translation of said work and for its distribution in our high schools and our libraries so that this very up to date publication may be available also in the French language for distribution at the earliest possible time. Many people in the district of Abitibi which I represent here will thus obtain considerable information which would eventually allow them to take a more effective part in connection with research and the development of new mineral deposits, be it for iron, zinc, gold or copper.
The minister is also requested to offer the public more publications in both the English language and the French language. This would be useful for more than one area in the province of Quebec at least. The publication to which I referred, namely "Prospecting in Canada" by A. H. Lang, published in 1956, publication No. 2529, contributes to the expansion of the Canadian mineral industry and to the success of many prospectors, students and companies. It includes very interesting data on the stature of Canada's mineral industry. It refers to prospectors of the past, prospectors of today and prospectors of the future. Conventional methods of prospecting and special methods also are explained in the publication. More particularly I refer to geophysical prospecting methods, the dip needle, the gravity method, seismic methods and electrical induction methods. It compares ground and airborne magnetometer surveys.
In view of the very interesting discovery in Chapleau riding of zinc and iron ore deposits lately, we ask the minister if he will order a helicopter-equipped party to complete more topographical mapping along the Harricana river and also along the Not-taway river which both flow towards James bay. Such mapping in the area north of lake Mattagami would permit more complete and adequate knowledge about possible hydraulic development associated with other mining and industrial projects of interest at the present time for the Harricana and lake Mattagami areas.
This would undoubtedly be useful at this time for the provincial authorities who, we are told, are considering the possibility of authorizing industrial development in the area.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall item 227 carry?


John Horne Blackmore: Before we go on to the next item, Mr. Chairman, to show you the
1430	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys kind of thing that troubles us when we contemplate some of these items, may I point out that we have $2,454,000 involved in this item for 1957-58. We were told that this is for administration, operation and maintenance including the expenses of a national advisory committee on research in the geological sciences. Judging from the other items which seem to be covered in the full item the expenses of the national advisory committee to which I have referred seemed to be, to say the least, generous.
I just wonder if the minister could give us the number of people who are included in that national advisory committee. I am not so much concerned about salaries because if they are the right men they are worth a lot of money but I would like to know how many men and women are involved.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: What the member is asking will be contained in the information I will give the hon. member for Timmins.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch-
229. Mines branch administration, $123,514.
Mr.   Johnsion@Bow River: This is an item which I mentioned a while ago on which I wanted to get some information from the minister. This is the administration of mines and research branch administration, and I would like to ask the minister now what has been done recently with respect to the development of tar sands in Alberta?


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, we are carrying out some research experiments through our fuel division in an endeavour to remove the sulphur content from the tar sands and reduce the distillents. Research in extraction methods was conducted some years ago.


Charles Edward Johnston: I understood the minister to say that there were programs of research being carried out. I could not hear him very clearly but I am sure that that is what he said and I would ask him to explain that because I do not understand it.


Paul Comtois: I said experiments are
actually being carried out in our fuel division.


Charles Edward Johnston: Well, may I ask the minister what are those experiments which are being carried out. It does seem to me kind of ridiculous, Mr. Chairman, that after about 25 years when the federal government has been carrying out its experiments in the development of these tar sands, all the information we can get today is that there is a little bit more experimentation being carried on. I would like to know what progress is being made and what are those experiments?
(Mr. Blackmore.i


Leonard T. Stick: Hurrah.


Charles Edward Johnston: We can remember that during the war nothing had been done by the federal government-who were then the Liberals-until an emergency arose and we were on the verge of being denied any supplies of gas or oil fuel during that war. Then all of a sudden the government began to spend a few million dollars in an effort to get some extraction of oil and gas from the tar sands. We built a pilot plant which was burned up and that was the end of it. We have now spent more than $100 million-well I really do not know how much is being spent-but nothing concrete was given us in this report of the committee today.
I do not want to press the point too hard because the minister is a new minister but he does have his advisory staff right in front of him and surely we should be given something very concrete on what is being done to develop these tar sands, if anything is in fact being done.


Mr. McCleave:: It is taking as long as it takes to get your Social Credit dividends through.


Charles Edward Johnston: Please give us something to indicate what you are doing here to protect us in the case of an emergency. This is not the time to wisecrack, we are facing an important situation here.


Paul Comtois: Mr. Chairman, we have
produced through research in our fuel division a method of extracting bitumin and tar from the tar sands and if our experiments for the industry as a result of our research and studies and the compilation thereof, are found to be economically applicable, it is up to them to take advantage of the situation.


Charles Edward Johnston: But what type of extraction is being used? There are several types of extraction being applied; for instance, steam pressure. What is the type of which you are speaking and which you have developed, which I take from what you say has come to the point where it might be an economic feasibility and is now up to the industries to take hold of. What is this process you are talking about?


Paul Comtois: I do not think such a discussion should take place at the moment. The compilation of our research has been given to the interested people and our findings have also been given to the national research council.


Victor Quelch: Which oil companies are
carrying out the investigations at the present time.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Royalite and some other companies.


Mr.   Johnsion@Bow River: What process which you have given them are they working on?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, do you think I have to give a full course on research and experiments in this committee.


Mr.   Johnsion@Bow River: I do not wish to appear unco-operative with the new minister but surely this is the time when we are entitled to the information, since the minister has his experts before him. That is why I am asking him this question, as he can get his information right from his experts. This is not something new; we have discussed it, and I have discussed it personally, in this house on many occasions. The government has also spent on it literally millions of dollars. I am just trying to find out what we are getting out of this spending and what process, through all these experiments which have been carried out and as a result of certain conclusions, is being followed? To which companies outside of Royalite has this process been given?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I wonder if I might just interject here. I think the minister is being asked about something which is really the province of the national research council and it is hardly fair to expect him to explain all the research which is being carried out on all the different minerals being mined throughout the country. I was in New Brunswick the other day and I noted a new system there called flotation in connection with concentration of base metals. It does seem to me unfair to ask the minister to give all this information on research. I understand his department does help in any way it can with respect to private companies who wish to do research. I have been in the house for 22 years and every year there has been a question on tar sands. Now I was very pleased the other day to read where some English company which was interested in the tar sands hoped to develop, through their research and so on, some method of abstracting oils from the tar sands.
However, I do not see how the minister could explain here the different methods which have been thought up to extract this oil from the tar sands. It may come within his province but, frankly, I do not really think it does.


Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman, I am surprised that the Minister of Veterans
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys Affairs should make a statement like that. He knows that the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is the department under whose estimates this matter is always dealt with, and we have always had an opportunity of discussing these things. The minister has already told us that in the department over which he has jurisdiction they have been working on certain processes. He has even gone further and told the committee that they have perfected certain processes to the point at which they have been passed over to private industry in the hope that private industry will make them applicable in an economic sense. Now I am asking the minister-and surely we should be able to have this information-what are these processes. I am not asking him to define in detail the procedures involved, but I do want to have an outline of the information which the department must have.
After all, the expenditures with regard to this amount to millions of dollars. Surely the department must know of at least one type of treatment among the different types of processes they are experimenting with. It is not for the Minister of Veterans Affairs to get up and say it is not fair to ask the minister for this information. If it does not come under this department-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I think it comes under the national research council.


Charles Edward Johnston: Then the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys does not agree with the Minister of Veterans Affairs; those two gentlemen should get together behind the curtain and decide just who is going to take responsibility. What I want to know is what is happening to all this money, and I think the committee has a perfectly right to know.


Victor Quelch: Mr. Chairman, I think there is a reason for some suspicion being in the minds of a good many members of the committee with regard to the extraction of oil from these tar sands. Back in 1945 we had a committee set up of which I was a member, and at that time we had a Dr. Ellis, or Dr. Ells who appeared before the committee from the department. He gave a very optimistic report about the development of the tar sands. He had spent some 20 years up there, and was a master of the subject. As I say, he spoke in glowing terms, and the committee was completely prepared to make a recommendation regarding the development of these sands, but the next day another official, another officer from the department, a man who was apparently Doctor Ells superior, poured cold water over the whole thing and suggested we
1432	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys should forget all about it. Dr. Ells had suggested the steam pressure method of extracting the oil but, as I say, the next day another official came, a man who was apparently the superior of Dr. Ells and poured cold water over the whole thing.
That was about 12 years ago, and since that time very little progress has been made. It is true, as the hon. member for Bow River has stated, that a pilot plant was built. That was burned down. I think another was built, and that was burned down too. So there has been very little progress since that day, and it is only natural that some hon. members should be suspicious. I understand, now, that Royalite is going ahead. There is some talk of building a pipe line. But until they have found some satisfactory method of extracting the oil it is somewhat premature, it seems to me, to be talking about pipe lines.
When a feasible method of extracting the oil has been found, it will be quite soon enough to talk about building a pipe line to bring the oil down to Edmonton.


Charles Edward Johnston: Can the minister tell us, now, after consultation with the technicians, what the processes are?


Paul Comtois: Would the hon. member be satisfied if I sent him a full report of the work that is being done?


Charles Edward Johnston: Personally, Mr. Chairman, I think I would be satisfied, but I doubt whether the rest of the committee would. They will have to speak for themselves. We are being asked to pass quite an item. In view of the fact that we have spent millions upon millions of dollars trying to develop this thing, and the department is not in a position to give us any more information, I guess we will just have to say that the department does not know anything about it and will try to find out something and let us know later. That being so I will sit down and say no more at the moment.


Thomas James Irwin: Mr. Chairman, the department's salary expenditures amount to something like $10 million. Of that sum, approximately one-fifth is spent in this particular branch. What we are really wanting to know is what we are getting for it. Two and a half million dollars has been spent by this department and we cannot get a satisfactory answer about what is being done in a specific case. These resources belong to the people of Canada. Why should they not know what is being developed? Why should they not be told what is being done? They are paying the shot. If this was a private company the directors of the company and the shareholders would have the right to know and they would insist on that right and, believe
[Mr. QuelchJ

me, the shareholders of Canada unlimited are making exactly the same demand.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Mr. Chairman, the name of one company has been mentioned-Royalite 

and the minister said there were others. Surely we could have the names of these other companies? Reference was made to a British company that was interested. Apparently the information was given to them. What was the name of that company?


Paul Comtois: The Sun Oil Company, I believe.


Alexander Bell Patterson: That is a British company?


George Carlyle Marler: Sun Oil is not a British company.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Are we to assume that just two companies have received this information, Royalite and Sun? We still have not got the name of the British company. I do not know what is going on here. I think there must be a military secret involved, or something, because I cannot see why we should not get the names of the companies. We cannot get the name of one company. If information has been turned over to a British company, what was the name of that company.


Jean Lesage: The British company was mentioned by the Minister of Veterans Affairs.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Perhaps the Minister of Veterans Affairs could tell us, then.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The hon. member probably had the same opportunity to get the information as I did. I got my information from the newspaper, that there was a British company which was greatly interested in the tar sands, and that there was a prospect of development.


George Carlyle Marler: Sounds like a curtain of secrecy.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Perhaps the Minister of Veterans Affairs got his information from the newspapers, but surely we can get ours from the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Paul Comtois: I can tell the hon. member that every company has received information from our department. We know that Royalite and Sun Oil have taken advantage of our information. As far as the others are concerned, we do not know, but I can tell the committee the companies have received all the information we have produced.


Alexander Bell Patterson: These companies have been given the information, but we in this committee do not know what is the information. The hon. member for Bow River has been

trying to get the information, but we are still without the information which has been given to the companies.


Frederick George Hahn: Mr. Chairman, I believe the minister should take careful note of this discussion. In the light of what has taken place, does he not think it is sufficient proof that the standing committee on mines, forests and waters should be called so that we could have representatives from the companies and others here to question them and find out what this is all about?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister say on what terms or conditions any processes developed by the department are turned over to private companies?


Paul Comtois: I think I said this morning, Mr. Chairman, that the research we do and the information are given without any charge except when it is a very large project or something that requires a large expenditure.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think part of the confusion created this afternoon arises from the fact that sometimes the minister has referred to information as though it were just a bulletin of some sort you might get from the Queen's printer and on some occasions he has referred to specific processes developed by the department for the extraction of oil from the tar sands. Which is it, just an information bulletin or has the department developed an effective process which it has turned over to a private company?


Paul Comtois: The process is described in the report issued by our department.


Charles Edward Johnston: What is that process described in this bulletin? What is it called?


Paul Comtois: The cold water process.


Charles Edward Johnston: And what is the name of the bulletin? I have been seeking that information for some time.


Paul Comtois: There is the hot water process and the cold water process. That is all I can say right now.


An hon. Member:: And the tepid water process.


Charles Edward Johnston: Well, Mr. Chairman, the cold water process and the hot water process and the lukewarm water process were being discussed here during the last war.


Mr. Cardiff:: Which would you like to have, hot or cold?


Charles Edward Johnston: I am not fussy, I just want any one.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Paul Comtois: I would suggest that the hon. member take one or two days off and visit our department and then he will be very well informed and will understand everything that is being discussed.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am sure we would like to accept that kind of invitation which the minister extends.


Paul Comtois: That is a standing invitation.


Charles Edward Johnston: However, would the minister expect that with one hurried trip we could learn as much as his departmental officials, his experts, have accumulated in knowledge over all these years? Perhaps he would like to enlarge his invitation to cover a period of two or three days and make it a government commission rather than a hurried visit. I am going to suggest that the minister allow this item to stand and that on Monday he bring in the officials who are acquainted with this process. I am not trying to embarrass the government or the minister but I do suggest that this item stand over until we can have the proper experts brought here who could explain to us what is being done particularly in relation to the development of the tar sands and various other processes the minister has referred to and about which we do not know very much and about which the minister does not know very much as he has admitted. He told us he could not give us the information. We want to know what the results have been from the expenditure of all this money. This process has been going on for 25 or 30 years and surely for all the money that has been spent the department must have found some little, wee, tiny process be it hot water, cold water or lukewarm water. We do want to know.
I might tell the minister that about a year ago the department had given up the idea of the hot water process and had started on another type of process. And the department at that time claimed that the cold water process-or rather the hot water process; I am getting my waters mixed up-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Charles Edward Johnston: -at any rate they claimed that the hot water process had proven useless in this case. It is true that in the province of Alberta they still maintain that the steam process is the best and that is the one they are working on there and they do not agree with the federal government. The minister says the federal government is still going on with the other process, the hot or cold process-take your choice-


Jean Lesage: It is cold water that is thrown on the committee.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Mr.   Johnsion@Bow River: -and I think the minister should allow this item to stand so the committee may have some proper information concerning it on Monday.


Mr. Richard (Ottawa East):: Mr. Chairman, it just occurred to me that after that lucid explanation given by the hon. member for Bow River we should not require any more explanation from the minister.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not know whether or not you are trying to make a wisecrack.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Mr. Chairman, if I am funny it is because I am trying to be. I am not saying something that is serious and I think it is funny.


Charles Edward Johnston: Well, you do not
sound very serious to me so it must have been a wisecrack. I would not say we have not received anything from the minister but I would point out that the minister is not quite fully informed on this subject and I think he should take into consideration allowing the item to stand so he could bring down the information on Monday.


Jean Lesage: He is informed now.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I am not here to conduct a scientific course concerning every detail of what is going on in my department. I am ready, however, to produce and to table every detail of what has been going on and what has been accomplished this year if this would satisfy the committee. If hon. members agree to that I am ready to produce every detail of the operation of my department in that respect. Otherwise I am ready at the next sitting to come back with full details and read to you for about half an hour or three-quarters of an hour every detail about the hot water process and cold water process. The hon. member will realize that ice water or hot water or cold water in scientific terms means something other than something to drink or something with which to burn his tongue.


Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the minister has now gone into a little detail about this.


Paul Comtois: Not at all.


Charles Edward Johnston: I would point out to him, however, that it does not make any difference to me how the information is brought down as long as it is brought down. If he wants to table this detailed information that is quite all right. On the other hand if he wants to come back on Monday, and I think this would be the preferable way, he could take half an hour to give us the information and explain to the

committee exactly what these processes are for which we have spent millions of dollars and that would be quite satisfactory to me.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mineral resources investigations-
230. Administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $22,500 to the Canadian institute of mining and metallurgy to assist in defraying the cost of the sixth empire mining and metallurgical congress to be held in Canada in 1957, $2,780,073.
Mr. Bryson:: Mr. Chairman, I hope this is the item under which I can put a question to the minister and I do so only to have some further clarification on it. It has been brought to my attention that independent prospectors are unable to buy or obtain some of the new instruments that are being used in the process of prospecting, for instance gravity meters. When they apply to the companies concerned they are told they are unable to supply individual prospectors with these instruments. Apparently only companies are able to purchase such equipment. Carrying it further, they are told that there was an order to that effect issued by this department. It seemed more than passing strange to me that this should be the case. I am not saying it is an absolute fact because I have not had the experience myself but I have been told these stories by quite reputable people and therefore I wonder if the minister could offer a word of explanation in answer to that charge.


Paul Comtois: Could the hon. member be more precise about the type of instrument to which he is referring?


Hugh Alexander Bryson: I have reference to the gravity meter. That is the only instrument that was brought to my attention.


Paul Comtois: We do not supply any instruments to prospectors or companies.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: That is not my point. The point I am trying to make is simply this. An individual prospector wishes to purchase a gravity meter. He applies to one of the companies, whether in Toronto or Montreal makes no difference, and wants to buy one for his own use. He is told they are not able to make this kind of sale. If he represented a big oil company or something of that nature he would be able to purchase the piece of equipment in question. When he investigates further he is told that this is because of a directive that originated in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I am just asking for clarification. There may be no truth in it but I should like to find out more about it.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I am informed that we never issued any directive or gave any authority regarding this matter.


Mr. Carier:: I am interested in mineral
resource investigations. Can the minister say whether the department has received any requests to carry out mineral investigations in Newfoundland and, if so, what investigations have been carried out?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: The department has done
geological surveys, mineral research and topographic mapping according to the requests that have been received from Newfoundland.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
232.	To provide for payments to McGill University In connection with the development of a coal-fired gas turbine, $25,000.
(Translation) :
Mr. Caron:: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys about me were brought to my attention. I should like to inform him that I am putting his advice into practice at once.
(Text):


Hédard-J. Robichaud: I am sure the committee was pleased to hear from the minister today that he and his officials had scrutinized in detail every item of the estimates and on this side of the house particularly we were pleased and not surprised to hear the minister say that no waste or extravagance were found in the department. In connection with this vote, which provides for a payment to McGill University in connection with the development of a coal-fired gas turbine, I am not asking the minister for a scientific course on the experiment made to date but I think the house and the people of the country have a right to know how far the experiment has gone, what stage it has reached, if it is practicable and what results have been obtained to date.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I expected that question. I presume that the hon. member refers to the Mordell project conducted by McGill University at Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Quebec. I have some notes here that I have prepared on the subject. The experimental plant at Ste. Anne de Bellevue was subjected to its final program of test running in 1956. Considerable data was accumulated during that period. A conference on coal-burning gas turbines, planned by Professor Mordell, was arranged to coincide with the final operations in November, 1956. Representatives from Canada, the United States, Britain, South Africa and Australia attended the conference where the results of the Mordell project experiment were discussed in the light of world developments in coal-fired gas turbines. The final editing of the proceedings of the conference should be available very shortly.
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The experiment has now reached the stage where the participation of industry or power utilities is necessary for its future development and utilization as an economical power unit. Though there is little hope now of producing a coal-fired gas turbine locomotive that would stem the tide of the rapid dieseliza-tion of our Canadian railways, the coal-fired gas turbine could find an application in the field of small power generating stations, particularly where lack of water prohibits the use of a steam plant. It also seems that the gas turbine combined with a steam plant could improve thermal efficiency and reduce water requirements.
I might give the following by way of a resume. The agreement between the department and McGill University was signed in October, 1950. Its purpose was research to improve the utilization of Canadian coal through the developing of a coal-fired gas turbine operating on a design of Professor Mordell, to be used in locomotives and stationary power plants. In November, 1953, the experimental plant was completed and trial runs, testing and experimenting were conducted during 1954, 1955 and 1956. In 1957 $25,000 was provided to maintain a staff for the completion of reports and to pay for expenses in housing the plant at Ste. Anne de Bellevue. For 1958 no moneys are to be provided in the estimates.


Mr. MacEachen:: Mr. Chairman, I am rather disappointed that the minister has intimated the intention of his department to abandon this particular project in the sense of not intending to provide further funds to continue the experiment. The last time this matter was before the house was in the summer of 1956 when the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys were under consideration. At that time the then minister of mines and technical surveys informed the house that the experiment was proceeding but that difficulties were being experienced with the heat exchanger and the combustion chamber of this particular engine.
He went on to say that it was intended that a symposium would be held in the fall of 1956 to evaluate the experiment. He further told the house that Professor Mordell was very optimistic that this particular experiment would reach the practical stage. I believe that already the parliament of Canada has voted $700,000 or more for this project. We have not been told today at what stage the project is, whether it has any practical application and whether any effort is to be made by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys to develop the project to
1436	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the stage where it can be applied to the locomotives on the railways of Canada which was, I think, the first objective and intention behind the project.
Every time this matter has been before the house members from Nova Scotia and other coal mining areas have been very keenly interested. We had looked forward to this experiment as a potential outlet for coal in the province of Nova Scotia. I hope the minister will tell us just where the project is now, whether it is to be abandoned, what application can be made of it, and whether it is really wise at this stage to abandon it.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, after the conference was held it was felt that some time should be allowed in order to study and evaluate the results and see what further improvements could be made. It is for that reason certain delays have occurred. When the representatives are ready, they will notify the department and I presume we can take this matter up again.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Do I understand the minister to say that the delay or interruption in this project is for the purpose of evaluating the results of the experiments so far, and once that evaluation is undertaken, if it is found desirable further funds will be requested to continue the experiments?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I believe the proceedings of the conference are to that effect, and when a conclusion has been reached there may be a recommendation for additional funds. If so, we will see what we can do. I hope something will be done.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: May I ask the minister whether or not Professor Mordell still has the same optimistic outlook about this project, and whether or not McGill University has requested-


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, he does.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: Is the university at the present time in a position where they have enough funds to carry on the work they are doing?


Paul Comtois: There is nothing being done now except the reports.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: Further to the matter I raised a moment ago and in view of the minister's assurance there was no directive sent out from the department regarding the matter, I wonder if the minister would carry the investigation a little farther and communicate with the companies to ascertain just what their policy is in this regard? If they are discriminating against the sale of gravity meters to individual prospectors, then that question


would have to be taken up with the Department of Justice. Would the minister look into that?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: If the hon. member will give me privately more details so that I can make the inquiries I shall be pleased to do so.


Charles Edward Johnston: This question of the coal-fired gas turbine has come up almost every year for the last 10 or 15 years. As was indicated by one of the previous speakers, we who are from the coal mining areas have been very interested in the progress made on this project. I recall on one occasion the then minister of mines and technical surveys made a speech in which he forecast that it would not be very long before our coal mines would come back to life again because of the tremendous amount of coal that would be used in this type of engine. We all had great hopes that this was going to be the solution for our declining coal mines, but so far we have not seen any results.
I see now that this vote has been reduced by $75,000. This means that in effect there will not be much progress made in the future. It was difficult for me to hear what the minister was saying, but from what he said I took it the department has not given up the idea of developing a coal-fired gas turbine for railway locomotives; is that correct?


Paul Comtois: I would say the government has not given up hope of developing such a gas turbine but it cannot be produced in time to stop dieselization. It will take some time before a final conclusion can be reached about these experiments. However, a gas turbine cannot be prepared in time to stop dieselization.


Charles Edward Johnston: I understand that the minister has not given up hope, although he has given up research. I make that remark because the estimate has been cut down by $75,000, and that is certainly going to prevent very much increase in research. I would take it also from what the minister has just said that he has hopes that research will be continued in an endeavour to have this gas turbine used in railway locomotives. This was the purpose of development, but now I understand that development work has ceased and that the department is turning the information they have over to commercial organizations to use in a small way.
If that is the case, then all this stuff we have been told over the last years was just so much lukewarm water, if I may use that expression. Only last year we were told that the government had tremendous hopes for

this project; just be patient, they said, and almost any time now this is going to solve our coal problems. I recall quite well that the former minister of trade and commerce, Mr. Howe, was on one of the committees of the house and he told us the project had been sidetracked entirely. Now the minister tells the committee it has been sidetracked but they hope to get it back on the main track later. What are we going to believe? May I ask the minister how much money has Canada spent to date on the development of this coal-fired gas turbine?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: We have spent $662,000.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is that the total amount over all the years?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is over half a million dollars, as one of my colleagues behind me says, and so far as being used on a railway locomotive is concerned, it is a flop. I think a great deal of economy could be practised somewhere. Surely, it does not take over half a million dollars to find out that this experiment is no good. It almost parallels the millions upon millions that we spent on the tar sands, and then threw overboard. Now, we have got another project. If this government wants to look for places in which to economize I think I could go in as a greenhorn and show them places where they could save a few million dollars. They even went so far as to say it was going to solve our coal mining problem, that it was going to revive our coal industry, by spending that $662 million.


An hon. Member:: 


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes, $662,000. We side-tracked it or at least side-tracked it from the main purpose for which it was intended. I think the government had better have a good look at some of these things. These are only two that I have found. I will bet that there are dozens in there like them.


An hon. Member:: How much will you bet?


Charles Edward Johnston: I believe that I could go quite a long way, so far that the government would not be able to tell me if I was right or wrong. Seriously, though, I think the government should take a good look at these things and see whether much of this kind of waste could not be prevented.


Robert Jardine McCleave: I hope this matter is not in as hot water as are the tar sands we have heard so much about. It has been going on for some time now. I should like to ask the minister whether he knows whether this administration or his own department has asked the railways to co-operate with McGill Uni-
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys versity on this type of research so that some wheels might be put under this new gas turbine when it is ready to go. In other words, has the university co-operated with the railways?


Paul Comtois: There have been some contacts between the university, the railway companies and our department about that matter. That is all I can say right now.


Mr. Muir (Cape Breton North and Victoria):: I have been very much interested in this matter also. If it has been a flop, as the hon. member for "lukewarm" said, I am sure we cannot blame the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. But I think the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond made a very good point. We from coal mining areas have been greatly interested in this project. The question arises: is it a flop? How far have we gone on it? Would it be possible that the minister could table a complete and comprehensive report and bring the house right up to date on the matter?


Paul Comtois: Yes. I will look into it and see whether there is something that can be done in that way.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: I want to make it clear that I realize that this has been an experiment and that, like all experiments, its outcome is uncertain. Last year, in 1956, we had in the house a discussion on this particular experiment. At that time we were informed that the technical difficulties were in connection with the combustion chamber and the heat exchanger and that Professor Mordell was working on those two particular difficulties. I am not worried that there should be difficulties. What I want to know is this. Have the difficulties become so great from the technical point of view or the experimental point of view that Professor Mordell has now advised the department that it is not worth while to continue with this experiment?


Paul Comtois: No. We have never received such a report from Professor Mordell.


Henri Courtemanche: Shall the item carry?


Allan Joseph MacEachen: May I just ask the minister this question? I understand the minister to have said that it is not the intention of his department to ask for funds for the next fiscal year for this particular experiment. Is that right?


Paul Comtois: Yes.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: If that is so, if Professor Mordell still feels that this is a useful experiment, why do we not go ahead and experiment with it until we have convinced those who are working on the project that this matter is not a fruitful outlet for the coal production in Nova Scotia?
1438	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I should say that the report on the conference is under preparation. It is quite an extensive report and a very scientific one. After that it must be considered, and the conclusion must be studied again so that Professor Mordell should be in a position to recommend and to contact our department so that some additional funds may be voted or acquired in order to make further experiments.


Allan Joseph MacEachen: May I just make one further comment to this effect. Some years ago when the actual turbine or engine was in operation at McGill or at Macdonald College the previous minister of mines and technical surveys arranged for those members from coal areas to visit the scene of the experiment and to discuss the matter with Professor Mordell. 1 wonder whether, at some time in the course of this session, the minister could arrange a similar visit to the site of the experiment so that the members of parliament who are really interested in the coal industry might convince themselves as to what course might be followed in this matter so that it will not be abandoned because of lack of interest or lack of knowledge on the part of members of parliament.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Certainly. I shall be very pleased if such a visit can be arranged; and may I say that I will be the first one to take advantage of it.


Douglas Mason Fisher: I should like to ask the minister a question in connection with research on the utilization of coal. Is anything being done or planned in terms of research on the Kopista system that has been successfully carried to some length in Russia, that is the use of low-grade coal deposits through the driving of shafts, the burning underground and the utilization up above, by some sort of distillation process, of the heat and the gases.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: We are following up these developments but we do not make any research ourselves.


Mr. Winch:: I want to ask the minister this question. Is there any difference between the answer given now and the answer I received in 1954 to the same question?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: I was not here then.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geographical branch-
233.	Geographical branch-administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $250 to the Canadian association of geographers, $284,580.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: On this item which provides for the administration of the geographical branch I just want to rise to bring to the attention of the house the excellent work


done by a voluntary organization in Canada in this field. I refer to an organization that was known up until recently as the Canadian Geographical Society but which lately has acquired the right to be known as the Royal Canadian Geographical Society. In view of the history of this organization, its publications and the work it has done, for the information of the house I think it would be worth while just to quote the item in this connection from the November issue of the society's magazine It reads as follows:
The Royal Canadian Geographical Society
Her Majesty the Queen has been graciously pleased to confer the title of "Royal" on the Canadian Geographical Society. This is a mark of appreciation prefixed to the title of those organizations selected by Her Majesty that are deemed worthy to receive such an honour.
At a special general meeting of the society, held on Friday, 4 October 1957, under the chairmanship of the president, Major-General H. A. Young, a resolution was passed unanimously by the members approving the necessary by-law to change the name of the society to "The Royal Canadian Geographical Society", and application to the Secretary of State for supplementary letters patent to effect this change has been duly made, in accordance with the provisions of the society's by-laws and the requirements of the Companies Act. This was granted as of 4 October 1957.
E. S. Martindale Honorary Secretary
I mention that because I think it is something of importance in the life of this society which is functioning to the advantage of geographical knowledge and has done so for a good many years. The society publishes a monthly magazine and also provides funds for certain explorations and things of that sort and, on occasion, for lecturers and information on certain subjects.
I bring this to the attention of the members of this house because I think they should do what they can to support this very worthwhile organization to which they can belong for an annual fee of $5.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
234.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including membership fee of $500 to the international astronomical union, a grant of $3,500 to the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada and a grant of $3,000 to the international union of geodesy and geophysics to assist in defraying the cost of the eleventh general assembly of the union to be held in Canada ip 1957, $588,560.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Excuse me jumping up again but these are two items upon which I would like to speak briefly. With respect to this item on dominion observatories I would like to say a word because I think it is appropriate at this point to make a few remarks in connection with the subject of time, that is time in a legal sense and not in the sense in which it is used by some of my colleagues.

In recent years we in the provinces have instituted daylight saving time and in peacetime the regulations concerning this time, as I understand it, come under the jurisdiction of the provincial governments. It is only under war conditions that the federal government has jurisdiction in that respect. I think we in Canada are a most illogical people; we have daylight saving time established in British Columbia during certain months and during somewhat different months in Alberta and in other provinces no daylight saving at all. Now I think that is a lot of nonsense.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think we should get a dominionwide understanding on this subject if we are to use daylight saving. It would be much easier for the railroads, the bus companies and all transportation services, not to mention all Canadians in general. I would like to ask the minister if he would consider having this matter brought to the attention of the coming dominion-provincial conference with a view to seeing if we cannot act with a little more common sense and arrange this matter for our better convenience as a result of agreement between the federal and provincial governments.


Paul Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will do my best, if there is time for such a proposition.


Thomas James Irwin: I would like to ask the minister if he could prevail upon the provincial governments to leave the clock alone and allow us to utilize time in the normally established tradition. In my opinion this business of trying, when you live in Vancouver for instance, to adjust yourself to one time in accordance with the way they run the boats and another in accordance with the way they run the trains and so on, is very difficult. I think people should be allowed to use time in the normal way with respect to when they get up in the morning and go to bed at night and we would be far ahead of the game if we could just leave the clock alone.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Well let us use it as a nation, whichever way we do it, and not as a province.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
237. To provide for purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, including purchases of equipment, $1,500,000.
William Arnold Peters: Will the minister give some consideration to seeing that regulations with respect to the E.G.M.A.A. payments are worded so that the payments are made for the betterment of the communities of
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys workers rather than the way it is done now. Some of these find their way into dividends rather than serving the needs which E.G.M.A.A. was originally set up to serve with respect to the communities and the people who live in them.


Paul Comtois: I will take this matter into consideration.


William Arnold Peters: Would the minister also consider this matter on the international level and the possibility of actively participating in the negotiations for an increase in the price of gold in conjunction with the representatives from similar departments in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa when this matter is being discussed? E.G.M.A.A. to a large extent is only a stop-gap and I think the general feeling is that there should be some active participation in these negotiations which should be taken on an international level. Will the minister give assurance that this department will do something in this regard, particularly as we have found in recent years that the government has not even been represented when such talks have taken place.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, I am ready to co-operate but this is a matter which concerns the Minister of Finance.


George Carlyle Marler: I would just like to ask a question of the minister as to whether there has been any change of policy with regard to the purchase of aerial photography, because I understand the policy followed in the past has provided for certain work to be carried out in each year by what I might describe as a pre-arrangement with the aviation companies. At times, however, these companies have themselves undertaken aerial surveys at their own risk in the hope that if the work was well done and the funds were available the department would purchase it. Has there been any change in policy with regard to the acquisition of such aerial surveys or is work being carried out on much the same lines?


Paul Comtois: No, Mr. Chairman, there has been no change in policy.


George Carlyle Marler: Is the minister now in a position to know approximately the results of this year's operations? After all, we have come to the end of the summer season and I would think they would have some idea as to whether the amount we are dealing with now will be sufficient for the year's operations.


Paul Comtois: The total work done has been higher than we expected; we have made
1440	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys arrangements with the treasury board so that the balance can be settled to the satisfaction of the contractors.


George Carlyle Marler: Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that the total amount of the photography would exceed the amount of this estimate and that some further provision would have to be made later in the year for the additional work?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: In next year's estimates?


George Carlyle Marler: In next year's estimates.


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes.


Mr. Thomas (Middlesex West):: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question along the same lines. Would the minister inform us if we use the facilities of our air force to do any of this work or do we depend entirely on hiring commercial aircraft companies?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Mr. Chairman, we are now entirely dependant upon private industry for this photographic survey work.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Then may I ask if consideration has been given to the use of the air force, or what is the reasoning behind this policy?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Until 1953 most of the work was done by the air force. Since that time we had to provide this service by some other means.


Murdo William Martin: As the minister mentioned a moment ago there is a very close link with regard to this emergency gold mining assistance between his department and the Department of Finance. I think I can go further and say that the Department of Labour is also closely related to this matter. As a result of this, Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether this is the appropriate place at which to discuss this matter, or whether there will be a more appropriate place on some other estimate. If it is in order I should like to bring up the matter now. The minister is well aware of what is involved. I have been trying for almost four months to arrange a meeting between the three departments concerned with the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and the United Steel Workers of America who represent the gold miners in the gold mining areas of northern Ontario. I fully realize that a new government taking over-


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Rea):: May I say
to the hon. member that I do not think what he is discussing now comes under item 237. We passed the other one on the emergency gold mining assistance.


An hon. Member:: This is item 237.


Charles Edward Rea: Yes, I
said we passed the one on emergency gold. This concerns air photography; it is to provide for purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, including purchases of equipment. That has nothing to do with the price of gold or the emergency gold measure, so I contend that the hon. member is out of order on this item.


Mr. Regier:: On that point of order, Mr. Chairman, the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act is listed, and this is the first item under that.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Since a point of order has been raised on this, you will note, Mr. Chairman, that that item is statutory and does not have to be voted at all. The sum is provided under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.


George James McIlraith: It is a statutory item.


Charles Edward Rea: Yes, as
the minister has pointed out, that is a statutory item and has nothing to do with item 237 which we are discussing.


Murdo William Martin: Could I find out
when this matter may be discussed?


Charles Edward Rea: On the
first item, the item covering departmental administration. That was item 213. That was when it should have been discussed.


Mr. MacEwan:: I have a short question to direct to the minister. Are these surveys for services in Canada let out to commercial companies on a tender basis or not?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: Yes, Mr. Chairman, on a tender basis.


Douglas Mason Fisher: If private companies are carrying out surveys is the equipment held in this interdepartmental pool or is it leased out to the aircraft companies?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: All the equipment belongs to the companies.


Douglas Mason Fisher: The minister says the equipment all belongs to the companies. What, then, do these purchases of equipment signify?


Joseph-Roland Comtois: This is for research and survey purposes in our own department.


Murdo William Martin: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if I might have the permission of the committee to revert for a moment to item 213.


Charles Edward Rea: Has the
hon. gentleman leave to revert to the first item; departmental administration?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Charles Edward Rea: I am sorry, it is not agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion coal board-
238. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $120,475.
Allan Joseph MacEachen: Mr. Chairman, the committee will recall that when the estimates of this department were introduced the minister requested that the discussion of the coal industry be conducted -under the items relating to the dominion coal board rather than under the first item. It is for that reason that those of us who are speaking on the coal industry will -make general remarks on the items now before us.
I wish first of all to congratulate the new minister on the portfolio he now holds. He is aware that he holds a portfolio in -one of the most important departments in so far as the province of Nova Scotia is concerned. The dominion coal board estimates have been used in the past by hon. members from the coal mining areas as an occasion to discuss conditions in the industry, to place problems before the committee and to enlist support for the measures that are necessary to sustain this industry.
I must say, Mr. Chairman, I regret that the ninth annual report of the dominion coal board which has been tabled has not yet been made available in printed form. This report usually provides a wealth of information and facts and a distillation of trends in the industry which must be studied if suggestions are to fye made to promote. The ninth annual report has, however, been tabled, and it is a very useful document indeed, and the coal board is to be congratulated on the very successful way in which it has analysed the problems of the industry. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that this industry is causing concern, and has been causing concern, to the people of Nova Scotia, and I think any person who has examined conditions in the industry recently has greater cause for concern than ever.
This concern arises because the industry is a shrinking source of employment. The decline in the number of people employed in the coal mines of Nova Scotia during the past year is alarming. The Minister of Labour made s-ome figures available with regard to this matter and the reduction in employment in the three main coal fields in Nova Scotia through the period September 1956 to September 1957 surprised even me, though I realized there had been a sharp decline. The number on the pay rolls in the coal mines of Nova Scotia in September, 1956 was 10,061; the number on the payroll in September of this year was 9,045, a reduction of
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys 1,016. That is a very serious reduction because it represents a reduction of 10 per cent of the working force in a single year. The reduction in employment in the main coal fields is as follows: 226 in the Cape Breton area coal fields, 367 in the Pictou coal field and 423 in the Springhill area coal fields. As I said, this rate of reduction in the number on the payroll is frightening and if continued would in a single decade wipe out the -mining industry in the province of Nova Scotia.
It is not a matter of coincidence that of the four towns in Canada declared to be areas of labour surplus by the Minister of Labour on October 31 in this house two of these centres are located in the coal producing areas of Nova Scotia. In reply to a question asked by the hon. member for New Westminster the Minister of Labour, as reported at page 598 of Hansard of October 31, said in part as follows:
In the second place, Mr. Speaker, when it becomes evident that work is simply not to be had in a certain locality, that activity has dried up and there is little likelihood of work being found, or where the supply of workers is far in excess of the available jobs and will likely remain so, then the Department of Labour has recommended that such areas be declared labour surplus areas and transportation assistance has been supplied to workers who have promises of jobs in other regions. Windsor, Ontario; Springhill and New Glasgow, Nova Scotia; and St. Stephen, New Brunswick, have been declared such areas.
It can be seen that the declaration of the Minister of Labour is not a matter of coincidence because it reflects the trend already outlined in the reduction of the number employed in the coal areas of Nova Scotia. Furthermore the trend in coal output reflects as well the declining employment opportunities. I understand that from the years 1950 to 1956 there has been a decrease in the coal production in the province of Nova Scotia of more than 700,000 tons. I think the figures placed on the record just recently by the hon. member for Bow River show that in the first six months of 1957 there has been a reduction of about 180,000 tons in the coal production of the province of Alberta over the first six months of 1956.
Paralleling the decrease in employment in the mines of Nova Scotia and the drop in production has been an increasing demand for coal for industrial purposes and an enormous relative increase in the importation of United States coal. The hon. member for Bow River put a table on Hansard that will be found at page 1123 showing the fact that in 1956 Canada imported more than 22 million tons of United States coal for consumption in Ontario and Quebec. The dominion coal

Private Bills
board makes the same point on page 6 of its tabled report, as follows:
The production of Canadian coal mines in 1956-57 amounting to 14.3 million tons, showed a decrease of 819,000 tons from the total for 1955-56. The loss was incurred mostly by the Alberta and British Columbia fields, but was also shared to an appreciable extent by those of Nova Scotia. Imports of bituminous coal for the comparative period were up 2.9 million tons but the importation of anthracite continued to decline.
The dominion coal board clearly underlines the fact that while the production of coal in Canada declined the general demand for coal increased and these demands were met in the period I have mentioned by the importation into Canada of almost three million additional tons of United States bituminous coal. How perplexing and frustrating it is to coal miners in Nova Scotia facing difficulties in their source of livelihood to observe these increasing demands for coal met from United States sources. Nova Scotia sells little if any coal in the province of Ontario and in any event has sold no coal in that area since 1950. We sell an increasing percentage of our output, however, in the province of Quebec, amounting in 1956 to 40.2 per cent of the total sale of Nova Scotia coal. Notwithstanding its supplies from Nova Scotia, however, the province of Quebec satisfies 58 per cent of its requirements from the United States. The fact that we are able at all to supply this market in Quebec is the result of the subvention policy that has been in existence in this country since 1928. The subvention policy has been our indispensable and successful weapon against the further encroachment of United States coal.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Five o'clock.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



PRIVATE BILLS


George James McIlraith: the second reading of Bill No. 30, an act respecting the Ottawa and New York Railway Company.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the bill is to dissolve the Ottawa and New York Railway Company. This company is a wholly owned subsidiary of the New York Central Railroad Company. It was incorporated in 1882 and its act of incorporation was amended from time to time until 1898. The company owns the right of way known as the New York Central Railway line from Cornwall to Ottawa. That railway line was

operated by the New York Central Railroad Company, and in 1952 the operating company discontinued the passenger service on the line.
In January of 1957 the board of transport commissioners for Canada authorized the abandonment of the line and the line has now been removed and there is in existence only the right of way. The right of way has been sold to the Canadian National Railway Company.
In addition to the railway line, the company owned a bridge at or very close to Cornwall known as the Roosevelt bridge. That bridge, as will be recalled by hon. members, carried vehicular traffic as well as railroad traffic. The removal of the bridge became necessary by virtue of the development of the St. Lawrence seaway and in accordance with the requirements of the St. Lawrence seaway authority. That meant that the railway line lost its connecting link with the New York Central system in the United States.
All outstanding accounts owing by the company have been paid but so that there will be no possibility of any unknown accounts appearing and no assets available to provide for them, the bill provides that the parent company, the New York Central Railroad Company, is liable for all claims, debts, causes of action and so on of the company. I do not know that there is much more I can usefully add by way of explanation of the bill, but if there is anything that hon. members think should be dealt with I will be very glad to answer if I can in closing the debate. If I am not able to do so, I would suggest that the information could be obtained from the officials of the company when they appear before the committee. I assume that the bill will be referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines in the usual way.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

Mr. M. D. Morton (Davenport) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 31, respecting the Rio de Janeiro Tramway, Light and Power Company, Limited.
He said: Mr. Speaker, may I, by way of introduction to the four bills with which I am concerned, make the preliminary statement that these bills concern the Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company Limited and three of its subsidiaries, namely, the Rio de Janeiro Tramway, Light and Power Company Limited, the Sao Paulo Electric Company Limited and the Brazilian Hydro

Electric Company Limited. Briefly, the purpose of the first three bills is to transfer the head offices of the subsidiaries from Canada to Brazil. This is brought about by the difficulty of public financing in Brazil without becoming Brazilian companies, and it is the purpose of these bills to transfer the head offices so that these companies may take advantage of Brazilian regulations to become Brazilian companies.
May I state that representatives of the company will be present before the standing committee to answer any questions for which I may not have the answer today. Perhaps I should, as a matter of record, make a few preliminary observations. The Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company is a Canadian company incorporated by letters patent dated July 12, 1912 under the Companies Act of Canada and has its head office in the city of Toronto, Ontario. The company, through its subsidiaries, operates companies engaged in furnishing electric power, telephone, gas and tramway services in the United States of Brazil.
The company's investment in Brazil is in excess of $900 million, this amount being represented by its investment in the shares and obligations of its subsidiary operating companies. The subsidiary operating companies are corporations which were incorporated in various jurisdictions, including Canada, Ontario, England and Belgium. Since the end of world war II Brazil, like our own country, has had a tremendous period of development and the Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company is making every effort to keep pace and to facilitate Brazil's development through carrying on an extensive program to meet the various demands for light, transportation, telephones, etc. But it is having difficulty in financing to the extent that it finds, in order to take advantage of obtaining local financing in Brazil, it must become a Brazilian company.
In 1953 two of the subsidiaries of this company transferred their head offices to Brazil. One was a dominion company and the other was a company incorporated under the laws of the province of Ontario. The reason that they would like to use the legal fiction of remaining a person and of maintaining their present capacity as a company and not forming a new company in Brazil is to overcome the cost that might be incurred by reason of the various transfer taxes that would be applied against them in Brazil. It also avoids the tremendous timeconsuming and costly task of evaluating the assets of each subsidiary which would be required under Brazilian law. It also avoids 96698-92
Private Bills
the necessity of transfers and the assumption by a new company of the obligations and liabilities of the present company. It also avoids the necessity of having to transfer the concessions, a difficult and complex problem due to the number of concessions involved which would affect various governments in Brazil. The present method will make the task easier.
As I said before, the first step in the implementation of this policy was in December, 1953 when the Brazilian Telephone Company, one of the principal subsidiary operating companies of Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company Limited, applied to the parliament of Canada for a private act authorizing the transfer of its head office to Brazil. The application of this company was favourably considered by parliament and an act entitled "An act respecting Brazilian Telephone Company", being chapter 74 of the Statutes of Canada, 1953-54, 2-3 Elizabeth II, was then passed. The practical solution of the matter is based on the fact that article 71 of the Brazilian corporation law, decree-law No. 2627 of September 29, 1940, states:
A foreign corporation authorized to carry on business in Brazil may be nationalized, subject to authorization of the federal government, by transferring its head office to Brazil.
It is also based on the legal theory set out in our law and covered by the Bonanza Creek Gold Mining Company case, cited as 1916, No. 1 appeal cases, at 566 and also cited as 85 L.J. P.C. 114, where a company has the capacity to apply for and accept a decree under the Brazilian corporation law, under which it would adopt Brazilian nationality. It is also considered on the basis of Mr. Justice Duff's remarks in the case of The Canadian Bank of Commerce versus Cud-worth Rural Telephone Company, 1923 Supreme Court Reports, page 618, where it was stated that it was necessary to obtain a special act of the parliament of Canada to provide authority to transfer the head office out of Canada.
With this background, therefore, I should like to present first of all Bill No. 31 which concerns the Rio de Janeiro Tramway, Light and Power Company Limited, which company was incorporated in 1904 under the Companies Act of Canada, 1902. The two acts respecting the company were passed by the parliament of Canada, first in 1904 by which the name of the company was changed and its objects expanded to contain authorization to carry on a street railway business, and the second act in 1906 by which the company was authorized to issue bearer share warrants and to guarantee certain kinds of

Private Bills
obligations of companies subsidiary to or controlled by it. The authorized capital of the company is $50 million divided into 50,000 shares of the par value of $100 each.
The company is engaged in the business of generating and distributing electric power in the state of Rio de Janeiro and in the federal district, which includes the city of Rio de Janeiro, and in the operation of a street railway service in the federal district. It is also engaged in the manufacture and distribution of gas for domestic and commercial purposes through a subsidiary company in Rio de Janeiro.


Leonard T. Stick: I
have no objection to this bill but there are one or two things upon which I should like to be enlightened. I understand that this company, the Rio de Janeiro Tramway, Light and Power Company Limited, is really a subsidiary of Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company. As outlined by the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. Morton), this company has $50 million in shares of $100 par value each. Are those shares going to be issued to the Canadian public? What provision is going to be made by this company to pay these shareholders in Canada any dividends that may be earned in Brazil?
In recent years we have had the spectacle of companies in Brazil that have earned money but, by reason of a restriction by the Brazilian government, cannot get Canadian dollars to pay to the shareholders. If these shares are going to be offered to the Canadian public I think the public should be fully aware that this company is now becoming a Brazilian company and they may have some difficulty in getting Brazilian money converted into Canadian dollars to pay their dividends. I have nothing against the company and this may be a genuine corporation. Perhaps the officials of the company would be able to take up this matter and satisfy the committee when this bill comes before the committee on miscellaneous private bills.


Mr. Speaker:: Order, if the hon. member speaks now he will close the debate.


Murray Douglas Morton: Mr. Speaker, if the answers I give are not satisfactory to the hon. member I hope he will press the matter in the committee stage. It is my understanding that the parent company is practically the sole owner, through its shares, of the subsidiary companies which are being transferred to Brazil. The parent company, the Brazilian Traction Company, is still remaining a Canadian company and under Canadian laws. Their shareholders will remain the same. The head offices of the subsidiary companies, not the parent company,

will be transferred to Brazil and they will operate in Brazil as Brazilian companies. Their further financing will be by the issue of bonds or debentures, whatever they might be, to the Brazilian public and not the Canadian public. That is one of the reasons they are transferring, in order that they might take advantage of financing in Brazil which they cannot do by remaining a Canadian company. I do not think that the security in respect of the assets of the company are in any-I was going to say any greater peril- different position than they are today because the physical assets of the company are in Brazil and they will remain in Brazil.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Murray Douglas Morton: the second reading of Bill No. 32, an act respecting Sao Paulo Electric Company, Limited.
He said: Mr. Speaker, if I might add to the general remarks I have made concerning the other company, the fact is that the Sao Paulo Electric Company Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company Limited, and was incorporated under the Companies Act of Canada in 1908 under the name of the Brazilian Electric, Steel and Smelting Company Limited, which name was changed to the Sao Paulo Electric Company Limited by supplementary letters patent issued to the company in 1911. The authorized capital of the company is $10 million divided into 100,000 shares of par value of $100 each, of which 60,950 shares are issued and outstanding. All are owned by Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company Limited.


Leonard T. Stick: I take it the remarks the hon. member made to the other question I asked him apply to this company as they did to the other one?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Murray Douglas Morton: the second reading of Bill No. 33, respecting Brazilian Hydro Electric Company, Limited.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the Brazilian Hydro Electric Company, Limited is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited and was incorporated under the Companies Act of Canada in 1922. The authorized capital of the company is $5 million, divided into 50,000 shares of par value of $100 each, 100,000 of

which are issued and outstanding, all owned by Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited. This company is in the same position as the other one.


Leonard T. Stick: understand that the same condition applies to this company as to the other two companies.


Murray Douglas Morton: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Murray Douglas Morton: the second reading of Bill No. 34, respecting Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited.
He said: Mr. Speaker, briefly the purpose of this bill is to enable the Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited, the parent company of the companies of which we have been talking, to come under the regular provisions of the Companies Act and not to be limited in its number of directors as it presently is.
I might say that the Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited was incorporated in 1912 under the Companies Act of 1906. Section 76 of that act at that time limited the maximum number of directors of the companies under it to 15. In 1914 the company obtained a special act of the parliament of Canada, being chapter 131 of the statutes of 1914 entitled "An Act respecting Brazilian Traction, Light and Power Company, Limited" which reads in part as follows:
5. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 76 of the Companies Act, the company may, by by-law in the manner provided in the said section, increase the number of its directors to not more than twenty.
The purpose of that section was to permit the company to have more directors than was at that time permitted under the Companies Act. Then in 1918 the limitation on the maximum number of directors was removed from the Companies Act and since that time the Companies Act has not contained any limitation on the maximum number of directors. However, the company still remains or continues under the handicap or limitation of this section that was passed in 1914. In order to overcome this limitation and to bring it under the Companies Act the same as any other company, we are asking that the section which I have read, namely section 5, be withdrawn so that the company then will not be limited in the number of its directors and could only change 96698-92J
Private Bills
its number of directors in accordance with the act as it is now set out under section 87 of the dominion Companies Act.


Mr. Claude Richardson (St. Lawrence-St. George):: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member has the information readily available, I wonder whether he would let the house know whether the greater number of the shareholders of the holding company, the company referred to in this bill, are residents of Canada and whether the greater number of shares are owned by residents of Canada.


Murray Douglas Morton: I am afraid I have not that information readily available but that information could be made available at the committee stage for the hon. gentleman.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Charles Edward Rea: the second reading of Bill No. 36, for the relief of Joseph Alfred Victor Tasse.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, before this bill is given second reading it seems to me that we should have a few words about it from the sponsor, the hon. member for Trinity. I notice that he has been given the honour, or whatever he chooses to call it, of being the sponsor of divorce bills at this session. On today's order paper there are 64 that are attributed to him.


John Whitney Pickersgill: The hon. member for Trinity?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Did I say "the hon. member for Trinity"?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: am sorry. I should have said the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Rea). In any case I was looking at the right member.
From the very fact that the hon. member for Spadina is sponsoring all of these bills, I would take it that that is not of his own choice but rather that this task has been assigned to him; and I think it is a fair assumption that the assignment was made by someone speaking for the government. On that basis it seems to me that we should be told whether the new government has any ideas as to how these divorce bills are going to be handled. I believe we should be told whether the practice of the last number of years is to be continued of having them put through parliament in the usual way, taking up the time of both houses and, I would say,

Private Bills
offending what is referred to in the speech from the throne as the dignity of parliament, or whether some other method is to be found and proposed to parliament by the new government.
It is not necessary for me to indicate what we in this group think about this procedure. It is well known that we do not think this should be the business of parliament. We have suggested a concrete alternative which we think gets the business of divorce out of parliament without putting divorce courts in the provinces where they are not wanted. We are prepared to make our proposal again but we have deliberately withheld making any proposal at this session until there has been some word from the government as to their intention. I recognize that the hon. member for Spadina is not a member of the government. But because he has been assigned this task apparently by the government I think that he should tell us what the plans are. I ask that question in relation to the case that is now before us not because I have any interest in or even knowledge about this particular case but because it is the first one the second reading of which has been called.


Charles Edward Rea: Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps the hon. member for Vancouver North-


An hon. Member:: The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.


Charles Edward Rea: I mean the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. He made a mistake in respect of my constituency.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We
are equal now.


Mr. Speaker:: I should inform the house that if the hon. member for Spadina speaks now he will close the debate.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On
this bill.


Mr. Speaker:: Yes, on this bill.


Robert Jardine McCleave: Mr. Speaker, before the hon. member for Spadina speaks may I say just a few words. I have read the evidence in the Tasse case. Without going into it now, I was going to ask the sponsor whether this evidence has been brought to the attention of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Fulton) because it involves what seems to me to be a very serious offence of fraud on behalf of the wife.


Charles Edward Rea: Mr. Speaker, the duty of the chairman of the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills is generally to sponsor divorce bills. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) asked whether there was going to be anything different in the procedure this

year from the procedure that has been followed over the past years. Of course, as he mentioned and as he knows, I am not a member of the government and I do not know of any procedure that will be different from the procedures that have been used in years past. This is a right, apparently, which certain people have, that is to come to this government to try to straighten out their grievances. Therefore I can only say to you, sir, that I know of nothing which will be different this year compared with what has been going on in the past.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Stanley Howard Knowles: On division.
Motion agreed to on division, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.



SECOND READINGS-SENATE BILLS

Charles Edward Rea: May I have the approval of the house to take, en bloc, the bills referred to in items 33 to 67 inclusive and 69 to 96 inclusive.


Mr. Speaker:: Is the house unanimously agreed to the adoption of the procedure suggested, namely that the second readings of the bills now be taken in the one motion.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: There is an act here respecting Mexico Tramways Company, Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Speaker:: The proposal was to include everything with the exception of Bill 73 as I understood it. That is the only bill other than divorce bills standing on the order paper.


Mr. E. L. Morris (Halifax):: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, as a new member I have read back through the debates in the years during which the late Mr. Woodsworth was leader of the party represented in this debate by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles). I have also consulted the standing orders but am unable to find, and would appreciate your direction now, as to how I should record my vote as being in opposition to this procedure?


Mr. Speaker:: I understood that the house had agreed to the procedure of taking all these bills together and the hon. member is now raising the question as to how he may record his vote against the bills.


Edmund Leverett Morris: That is correct sir.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I understood he wished to record his opposition to the procedure, which could be something different than opposition to the bills.


Edmund Leverett Morris: I did say on a question of procedure and I regret that. What I wish to do is to record my opposition to the bills.


Mr. Speaker:: Well then the hon. member will have an opportunity when the motion is put to register his opposition to all the bills in the one motion. Is it agreed then that we have the consent of the house that Bills Nos. 37 to 71 and 74 to 101 inclusive be now read a second time?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, with reference to this motion, perhaps I might say a word or two on behalf of this group. We feel very strongly that some procedure other than the one we now follow should be found by which to handle these bills. Nevertheless this is one field in which we are prepared to give the government a little time to consider the matter and for this reason we did not insist that all these bills be called individually on second reading.
We reserve our right however, in the committee on miscellaneous private bills and at the further stages in this house, to ask that these bills be dealt with separately if we feel such a course is indicated. For example, there are cases such as the one which has already been referred to by the taller member for Halifax (Mr. McCleave) where we feel these bills should perhaps be singled out for further consideration by the house.
There are two matters at stake here; one is the question of each individual bill and whether or not it should be passed; the other is the question of this whole procedure. We think parliament should not take much longer before finding a way to deal with this matter which does not offend against the dignity of parliament as, in our opinion, does the present practice.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Mr. Speaker, I understood you to say this procedure was with respect to Bills Nos. 37 to 71 and again from Bill No. 74 to Bill 96-


An hon. Member:: No, no.


Mr. Speaker:: To Bill 101.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Then, Mr. Speaker, was it the intention to exempt Bills Nos. 72 and 73?


Mr. Speaker:: No. Bill No. 73 is the only bill intended to be excluded from the motion and that is item 68 on the order paper. There does not appear to be a Bill No. 72 on the order paper.


William Howell Arthur Thomas: Oh, I am
sorry sir.
Private Bills


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Mr. Pierre Gauthier (Portneuf):: I would like to speak sir with respect to this subject. In previous sessions, as the house knows, we have opposed divorce and during the last session most of the members from Quebec refrained from casting a vote on this question because we knew that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) would move bills to try and convince the house and the then government, as he is trying to convince the present government, to send these divorce cases to the exchequer court. Am I right?


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is right. The exchequer court, sitting here in Ottawa.


Pierre Gauthier: Here in Ottawa. Now if this court sits in Ottawa it means that a court of divorce would be imposed upon Quebec and Newfoundland which we do not want. We will therefore oppose that measure if another bill comes before the house because we oppose any court of divorce in Quebec, and I think the same applies in Newfoundland.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member has one right now and he is a member of it, this House of Commons.


Pierre Gauthier: Pardon me?


Stanley Howard Knowles: say the hon. member has a divorce court right now and he is a member of it, this House of Commons.


Pierre Gauthier: Yes, but it has
been accepted by parliament, I believe, in the previous years that this procedure could be dealt with by parliament. The hon. gentleman now wants to change that procedure and we feel that, in this change, he is trying to impose upon Quebec and Newfoundland a court of divorce which we do not want. For that reason we are opposed to changing the existing procedure and as I say, we are firmly opposed to divorce in my province.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I am
not so much concerned, Mr. Speaker, with the procedure but I have heard nothing in this house in the years during which I have been here to indicate that anybody was concerned about a cure for divorce itself. The cause of divorce is selfishness and the use of strong drink and until we get such a cure- which really is the absolute surrender to the Prince of Peace-we are going to have divorce and we are going to have trouble with it. This is the breaking up of home life and the

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Christian home is the bulwark of the nation which is what we have to fight for.


Mr. E. G. Hansell (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker,
I am sure we all agree with the hon. member for Fort William. Nevertheless, that does not dispose of the situation, because if there were just one case of divorce coming from certain provinces in this country there would be no way in which that one divorce could be granted except in accordance with the manner now followed.
I do not know how to handle this thing, either, Mr. Speaker. 1 have given a lot of thought to it over the years. On occasions I have joined my voice with some in the C.C.F. group requesting that consideration be given to some other form of proceeding with these divorces, a form which would avoid bringing them before parliament but, frankly,
I do not know of any other way in which it can be done while preserving the civil rights of the provinces of this country. That is the conclusion I am reaching.
I know it is nauseating, sometimes, for us to get piles and piles of evidence so exhaustive that we can never read it all, and yet have to pass bills on a limited understanding of them. In my experience I have had to deal, in a way, with matters of this kind.
I have been brought in and asked to deal with various types of domestic problems; I have watched while cases were being heard in the courts of the land, and I will say this: I doubt very much whether the criticism which has sometimes been levelled at those who hear the evidence and make recommendations in another place is altogether warranted. I must confess that I, myself, have sometimes levelled mild criticism in that direction, but having a little experience, as I said, in hearing some cases tried in some of the courts of the country, and having heard some cases presented before the committee of the other place, I am going to suggest that the cases heard by the committee of the senate are just as thoroughly heard as they are by any other court.
These committees are regularly constituted and when the committee has to divide itself into sub-committees I am confident that they choose able men to act as chairman of those sub-committees, usually lawyers of some repute, and I am quite certain that they are as able as some I have known who have been appointed judges. The committee does its best possible work. Much as we may dislike the method which we have to follow, and much as we may dislike divorce, the problem still faces us, and it seems to me to be almost insurmountable. It is difficult to see how this could be dealt with in any other way.
(Mr. Mclvor.]
I object just as much as anyone to the necessity for this procedure but at the same time the question has to be dealt with and it appears to me that it will be dealt with in the way it is now for a long time to come.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the hon. member permit a question? In view of what he has said about the satisfactory way in which he says the senate committee deals with these cases, would he be inclined to recommend that they should deal with these cases finally, in which case they would not have to come to us?


Ernest George Hansell: If my hon. friend means that that committee should constitute a kind of judicial court or court of record, call it what you like, I would be quite willing that that should happen, because my own view is that the method of being heard by the senate and then the case coming here is something that is unnecessary, although there have been times when the odd, individual case has been reheard by the private bills committee and rejected even though the senate had recommended it.
But perhaps that could be remedied too; perhaps there could be provision for an appeal if one or other of the parties involved did not think he or she had received a fair hearing. But I should be quite willing to have an arrangement of the kind suggested by the hon. member, if that could be done. However, I doubt very much whether it could.


Erhart Regier: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to take very long in speaking on this matter at this particular time, though, like the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), I reserve my right to say more, possibly at a later date this session.
I fail to appreciate, once again, how we, elected as legislators, can be expected to act as adjudicators of our own legislation. I think that is an absolutely wrong course of action. Some hon. members may feel that they are not participating in a divorce court, but I contend that they are by the very fact that they are members of the House of Commons and have the right to pass a vote on these acts.
I regret that I fail to appreciate the thought which was expressed that we in the C.C.F. group want to force the divorce court upon anybody. I want to see that fair play exists, and that justice is done to these people, and we feel that when a group of legislators suddenly switches, at five o'clock into a group of judges, the fair deal to which these people are entitled cannot possibly be given them.
I regret very much that I have not the same confidence in the judicial capacity of the

members of the other place as a few hon. members have expressed. I have often had the feeling that no member of the other place above even the age of 60 ought to have the right even to sit in on one of these cases.
I am going to close my remarks this afternoon by hoping that the sponsor, who is acting in a responsible position, has at least read all the bills.


Leonard T. Stick: How old are you?


Erhart Regier: I would also express the hope that all members of this house have looked carefully over the list of names because whether they know it or not it is technically possible for their own names to appear here and for this house to grant a divorce without their being aware that they are voting on their own cases.


Charles Edward Rea: the second readings of the following bills:
Bill No. 37, for the relief of Claudine Yvette Felicite Cavallero Neely.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 38, for the relief of Evelyn Thelma Passineau Uyeda.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 39, for the relief of Ronald Victor Turner.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 40, for the relief of Charles Frederick Church.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 41, for the relief of Sarah Sally Abramovici Schor.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 42, for the relief of Eunice Kennedy Standeven.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 43, for the relief of Kathleen Louise Blaylock Hail Dunning.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 44, for the relief of Mary Hilbert Madge.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 45, for the relief of Marthe Helene Le Bel Champion.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 46, for the relief of Elizabeth Dermer Boyd.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 47, for the relief of Clarice Mendell Uditsky.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 48, for the relief of Dorothy Elizabeth Allen Bellenger.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 49, for the relief of Mildred Weiner Gordon.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 50, for the relief of Theresa Mary Moran Redmond Cooke.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 51, for the relief of Siegmund Paul Fritz Matthes.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 52, for the relief of Lillian Boyce Suttner.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 53, for the relief of Helen May Verner Joyce.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 54, for the relief of Lila Redmond McCorriston.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 55, for the relief of Phyllis Freda Sabbath Isaacson.-Mr. Rea.
Private Bills
Bill No. 56, for the relief of Marguerite Lavoie Jolin.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 57, for the relief of Margaret Lillian Mackenzie Smallwood.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 58, for the relief of Edith Elizabeth Altherr Thompson.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 59, for the relief of Jean Marc Marceau.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 60, for the relief of Moe Boxerman. -Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 61, for the relief of Marilyn Joan O'Bryan Watson.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 62, for the relief of Irene Elsa Rubin Cohen.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 63, for the relief of Sally Baker Golding Rohrlich.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 64, for the relief of Jerzy Dzynaw. -Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 65, for the relief of Pauline Mechanik Winterfeld.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 66, for the relief of Gennie Loza Jarvis.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 67, for the relief of James Keith. -Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 68, for the relief of Michal Rybi-kowski.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 69, for the relief of Beverley Joan Abbott Reid.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 70, for the relief of Mark Astman. -Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 71, for the relief of Karl Schubert. -Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 74, for the relief of Norma Liebo-vitch Ryer.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 75, for the relief of Manola Main-ville Lefebvre.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 76, for the relief of Anne Marie Fontaine Brien.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 77, for the relief of Joyce Hahn Maiste.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 78, for the relief of Joseph Fabien Marcel Perras.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 79, for the relief of Elizabeth Geroux Touchette.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 80, for the relief of Conrad Donat Joseph Bouffard.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 81, for the relief of Claire Lenoff Schecter.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 82, for the relief of Gun Elsa-Maria Stridh Zukrowski.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 83, for the relief of Dorothy Maureen Allan Cybuliak.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 84, for the relief of Lita Eleanor Ciceri Desrochers.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 85, for the relief of Gwendoline Georgina Adelaide McNamee Phillips.-Mr. Rea.

Private Bills
Bill No. 86, for the relief of Robert James Beakes-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 87, for the relief of Elizabeth Ann Vedder Chadwick-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 88, for the relief of Osbourne Denzil St. Martin.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 89, for the relief of Elizabeth Janet Davidson Blacklock.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 90, for the relief of Mary Isabel Bristow Livingston.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 91, for the relief of Zelda King Neuss.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 92, for the relief of Lena Therese Dean Lauzon.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 93, for the relief of Sydney Wagner.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 94, for the relief of Margaret Williams Mullins.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 95, for the relief of Donald Ernest Lamont.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 96, for the relief of Margo Jean Thornton Savard.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 97, for the relief of Marie Reina Pauline Duquette Cottier.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 98, for the relief of Molly Gloria Goldman Mencher.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 99, for the relief of Marie Marguerite Eugenie Lucie Prevost Dorfman.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 100, for the relief of Florence Hewitt Scribner Hartt.-Mr. Rea.
Bill No. 101, for the relief of Mona Areta Emsley Forbes.-Mr. Rea.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Stanley Howard Knowles: On
division.
Motion agreed to on division, bills read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.



MEXICO TRAMWAYS COMPANY

Mr. Percy Vivian (Durham) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 73, an act respecting Mexico Tramways Company.
He said: Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes which remain before six o'clock I think I can very briefly explain the essence of this bill. There is a considerable printed explanation which I think can be compressed into these facts. This company was incorporated in 1906 and then wished to take on additional
functions including the operation of a tramway in Mexico. At that time a company incorporated under the Companies Act was not permitted to do so without a special act and enabling legislation was enacted by this house. Subsequently this company went out of the tramway business in Mexico. It no longer wishes to pursue this endeavour and it is now asking that chapter 125 be revoked so that it may effect a return to what it wishes to be, an investment company, retaining the name Mexico Tramways Company but coming under the Companies Act under which in due time the name of this company will be changed.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, Monday will be private members' day and an arrangement has been reached between the parties under which on Tuesday we will move to go into supply and we will discuss exclusively external affairs. If there should be a vote it is agreed that it will take place at ten o'clock rather than at 8.15 as provided under the rules.


Leonard T. Stick: Mr. Speaker, do I understand we are limiting the debate on external affairs to one day?


Howard Charles Green: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it has been agreed that one day would be allotted for that purpose. Mind you, the estimates will then be referred to the standing committee on external affairs as has been customary for some years.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is
the minister in a position to indicate what government business it is intended to bring forward on government days next week? Will it be supply or will it be legislation?


Howard Charles Green: I am not in a position to say for sure but I believe arrangements have been made or are in process of being made for Wednesday to put through in all stages the bill amending the Unemployment Insurance Act and probably we would then go on with estimates. Thursday is to be a private members' day and on Friday we would take either estimates or legislation. I am not certain at the moment which it will be.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.