1956-07-05

EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: should like to direct a question to the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs, arising out of the situation in Poznan, Poland. Will the Canadian government give consideration to an immediate communication with the Polish government to signify its disapproval of tyrannical or barbarous punishment being imposed upon those who participated in the Poznan incident and to ask for mercy on their behalf? I wish to ask also whether the Canadian government has given any consideration to joining with the United States in this regard, to the end that justice will be tempered with mercy.


Hon. Roch Pinard (Acting Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: In the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, I shall take this question as notice and refer the matter to him.


NEWFOUNDLAND
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Roch Pinard: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson), and in my absence on Monday, the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Barnett) asked the following question:
By what authority is the United States air force forbidding Canadian civilians employed by them at Newfoundland bases to participate in Canadian political activities, as reported in the Sunday Herald, St. John's. Newfoundland, under date of July 1, 1956? Is this not an improper interference with the rights of Canadian citizens by a foreign power?
Mr. Speaker, I should like to reply to that question, which will no doubt be also of interest to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Pickersgill).
The Department of External Affairs has made inquiries and has learned that the United States northeast air command, on its own initiative, sent a letter to its Canadian
67509-360i
employees on May 12, 1956, informing them that the provisions of the Canadian Civil Service Act regarding participation of civil servants in federal and provincial elections would be applied in principle to Canadian civilian employees of northeast air command.
The government is satisfied that the action of northeast air command, although inappropriate, was well-intentioned. After discussion between the United States and Canadian authorities, it was decided that northeast air command would rescind the instruction to Canadian employees regarding political activities.


BRITISH COLUMBIA
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Public Works):: On June 29, the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Hahn) requested a statement about dredging in the Fraser river adjacent to the dock operated by the Searle Grain Company.
This elevator and wharf are leased by the New Westminster harbour commissioners to the Searle Grain Company Limited. Under the terms of the lease the lessor, that is, the New Westminster harbour commissioners, has assumed certain responsibilities to endeavour to have maintained at all times adequate and sufficient depth of water in the berths and in the channel to and from the main channel of the Fraser river, to enable ocean-going vessels to enter, lie at and depart from the usual loading berths.
The present lease expires August 31, 1956, and discussions are being conducted between officials of the Department of Public Works, the Department of Transport, the less&r and the lessee with regard to the respective responsibilities for the cost of future dredging.



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Robert Henry Winters: On June 29, the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Patterson) asked for comment on a report that the British Columbia government has made a formal application
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Inquiries of the Ministry to Ottawa to have the federal government pay half the construction costs of two lower mainland bridges and the Deas island tunnel.
The situation is this. In a letter dated June 12, the minister of highways for the province of British Columbia wrote me, and I quote from his letter, as follows:
.. .You will note a change from Langley Prairie to the city of Vancouver via the Deas island tunnel and the Oak street bridge, then across Burrard inlet via the second narrows bridge and the upper levels highway. This request has been placed before you at the instructions of my government. I would appreciate it if you would let me know forthwith if this could be included in schedule "A" and if not if we were able to know immediately then we could forward to you a further revised schedule "A" for your consideration.
On June 25 I replied and dealt with that part of Mr. Gaglardi's letter as follows:
The revision from Langley Prairie to Horseshoe Bay I do not feel meets with the intent of the agreement in providing the shortest practical route. As recently as February 23, 1956, at your request, we approved of a revision in location between Abbotsford and the Pattullo bridge and this location with extension to the eastern boundary of the city of Vancouver, as presently designated, is the most direct and therefore most appropriate in keeping with the spirit of the Trans-Canada Highway Act. In addition, under P.C. 1277 of March 7, 1952, as prior construction, we have paid $577,795 on the Pattullo bridge. Under these circumstances, I feel that the route from Langley Prairie to Vancouver should remain as in the present schedule "A".



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. J. McCann (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, with reference to the question asked on Tuesday, July 3, by the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) regarding the C.B.C. television series "This is Ottawa", I am informed by the C.B.C. that the purpose of the series was to provide a visual .impression of some of the varied aspects of Ottawa in its role as the national capital. Having regard to the limited number of program periods available, six periods of one-half hour each, it could not be considered and, in fact, was not planned as an historical review or a definitive documentary of the city of Ottawa.
The six programs are intended to deal with six different aspects of Ottawa as the national capital, an introduction to the national capital, Ottawa as an historic centre, as a diplomatic centre, as a centre of government research, as a cultural centre and


as the home of parliament. I am informed that those connected with the planning and production of the series experienced great difficulty in resolving the multitude of choices available in a city such as Ottawa and that programming and technical considerations as well as the convenience of the persons associated with each program of necessity had to be taken into account in choosing the locale to be related to the program.
I am informed that it was a matter of regret to the planners of this particular series that the mayor of Ottawa was unable, owing to a conflicting commitment, to accept an invitation to participate in the first program of the series dealing with the introduction to the national capital. I am further informed that limitations on the length of the series together with program and technical considerations made it impossible to include all the outstanding national sites such as Rideau Hall and Earnscliffe that the planner would have liked to include had not such limitations prevailed.


Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask if the minister or the C.B.C., who have furnished this statement to him, do not think there was just as much reason to include Earnscliffe, the home of the first prime minister of this country, or the home of the late Sir Robert Borden, as there was to include Laurier house in a television production of this kind?


James Joseph McCann: Mr. Speaker, personally I would agree that the hon. gentleman's contention is quite valid but, as explained, the limitations involved in a series of six programs precluded their taking these particular items into account.


Donald Methuen Fleming: They did not preclude them from including Laurier house.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: Is
the C.B.C. going to follow the very excellent program on Sunday night, having to do with the Charlottetown conference leading up to confederation, with other aspects of the confederation conferences and of Canadian history? I think it was one of the best programs I have ever seen and the impersonations of Sir John A. Macdonald and the other figures were quite remarkable. I think they are to be congratulated.


James Joseph McCann: I agree with the hon. gentleman that it was an excellent program. I saw it myself, but whether or not they are planning further programs along that line I am not informed.



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES NATIONAL GALLERY    FURTHER PURCHASES OF LIECHTENSTEIN PAINTINGS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. B. Nesbitt (Oxford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Is the national gallery negotiating with the Prince of Liechtenstein with regard to any further picture or pictures? If so, is it contemplated that such purchases will be made with public or with private funds?


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minisier of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, I think that there are some conversations going on but I do not think at the present time they could be described as negotiations.



AIR TRANSPORT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. G. J. Hahn (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Transport possibly the acting minister would care to take this question as notice. In view of the controversy raised by the residents of White Rock, British Columbia, over the choice of White Rock site as a secondary airport to Vancouver international, and in view of public concern over frequent air crashes on this continent, what consideration if any is being given the use of Langley airport for that purpose?


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I shall be glad to call the question to the attention of the Minister of Transport.



REQUEST FOR INCREASE IN BASIC PRICE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. McCullough (Moose Mountain):: Mr. Speaker, I had a question to direct to the Minister of Agriculture, but I see that he is not in his seat. I wonder whether I might direct it to his parliamentary assistant. Has any consideration been given by the government to meet the request of the Saskatchewan poultry association that the basic price of 38 cents per dozen for grade A large eggs be increased to meet the increased cost of production? If so, could the minister give assurance that any price increase will go to the producer?


Mr. Roberf McCubbin (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, as to the question asked by the hon. member for Moose Mountain, may I say
Supply-Secretary of State that I have not seen the request that the Saskatchewan poultry association has sent down. As the hon. member knows, the price for eggs at the present time is above the floor price. But any request that has come from this association will receive every consideration from our department.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE

[Stage Direction]
Civil service commission-
84. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $2,599,117.
Roch Pinard: Before we proceed again with the estimates of the civil service commission, Mr. Chairman, I should like to correct the information I gave to the hon. member for Oxford yesterday concerning an item in the public accounts concerning a sum of $11,880, paid to Mr. A. M. Laidlaw for secretarial services. I then informed him that this amount of $11,880 comprised secretarial services and the payment of salary of his secretary. I now find that the sum comprises only the total amount of fees at the rate of $60 per day paid to Mr. Laidlaw for his services as secretary to the Ilsley commission for the financial year 1954-55. I might add that the commission has not hired the services of a counsel and Mr. Laidlaw also gives advice to the commission as counsel. I would think that the fee paid to him is quite reasonable on these assumptions.
While I am giving this information, I should like also to answer a question asked of me by the hon. member for Royal concerning notices which were issued by the civil service commission in which he found that the salaries offered for the two positions were not, in his estimation, justified. In other words, one of the salaries appeared to be too high in view of the qualifications that were required, and in the other case the salary was much lower than, in his estimation, it should have been. At the same time, he asked me whether there was a co-ordination agency of some kind in the civil service commission to deal with the different salaries paid for different positions in the different departments of government.
I am now informed that the civil service commission is responsible for co-ordinating the salaries of the different positions as between departments, and is responsible for assuring that the salaries paid throughout the service are equitable and uniform, based upon the duties and responsibilities of the positions involved. In this case the technical position advertised was that of geological

Supply-Secretary of State lapidary technician, competition No. 56-378, and that is a supervisory position. The qualifications require supervisory ability. The appointee must be skilled in the particular activity and make thin sections of the most difficult type including radioactive ores; he must direct and supervise the preparation of ores and rocks for study under reflected light; check thin sections under a miscros-cope; improve, and develop new techniques; consult with and give advice to members of the scientific staff. The qualifications, as a result, require a number of years of experience in this or related work and evidence of ability to perform the highly specialized work involved.
In the other case, the position advertised was that of a labour legislation analyst. In this case it is a junior position on the technical staff and it is indicated that the duties of the appointee are to note criticisms, to summarize legislative decisions; to prepare reports and correspondence and articles. The incumbent of this position is not required to exercise supervision and no prior experience is required. The position calls for those who have specialized in particular academic fields, and for those who have some knowledge of labour legislation and labour problems. In other words, it may be true that, in spite of the fact that one has to be a graduate of a university and gets a smaller salary, he has to accomplish minor functions, while in the case of this geological technician, although there is no need for graduation from a university but simply an elementary school education, he has to have highly technical qualifications, which justifies the fact there is a higher salary offered.


Frederick George Hahn: Before the item carries, I have an observation to which I feel the minister should give some thought, with respect to an item on page 167, office stationery, supplies and equipment. I note that for the ensuing year the expenditure on office stationery, supplies and equipment is to be $98,000, which is a decrease of $12,000 from last year. I am very happy to see that consideration is being given to decreasing the expenditures on stationery. I raise the question because frequently we receive through the mail certain envelopes which I am sure are quite costly, much more so than the smaller ones.
I hold in my hand a large brown envelope addressed to Mr. Ernest G. Hansell, M.P., Box 417, Vulcan, Alberta. The postal date on it is 30,11,55, which would be the 30th day of the 11th month, which would be November, 1955. In the envelope sent out by the civil service commission there were three paltry sheets. It would have been much simpler to

have folded these sheets and put them in a much smaller envelope. I am satisfied that these envelopes cost a great deal more than ones one-third the size. I make this statement because this is not a single instance. I have another envelope in my hand which is postmarked the same date, 30,11,55, and addressed to the same gentleman. It contains four sheets of paper which indicate that certain civil service positions are vacant, and which we would ask the people of Canada to apply for so that the positions would be adequately looked after. I am satisfied that all hon. members get these envelopes from time to time. I have another one postmarked 5,12,55, which is the fifth day of December, 1955. In this instance the envelope contains four sheets.
In this morning's mail I received an envelope addressed to myself dated the 4th day of this month. It is another large envelope. I might say that in between times we have received many others as well. I am just picking these out because I was able to lay my hands on them. In this particular envelope there is an advertisement for a particular job with respect to engineers and architects. It applies to only one particular position. I realize that we do have to spend money to send these advertisements all over the country, but I am wondering whether we have reached the same stage in this country that the United States of America found itself in just a short time ago when they found it necessary to set up the Hoover commission to examine into the paper work that was being done in that country. I feel that the department of the Secretary of State is at least showing good business sense by reducing the expenditures on the paper work that it has to do. I am not singling out this particular department by bringing this to the attention of the government, but it is not an uncommon thing to find that we are so much bound up by red tape in reports of different kinds that we are spending many times more than we should necessarily spend on paper work. I am satisfied that this in itself could well develop into a fine patronage program. I am also satisfied that that is probably not so in the minister's department because the expenditure involved in this department is so small that it would not lend itself greatly to that purpose. I would ask that not only his department but every department of government examine more closely into expenditures in so far as paper work is concerned and see whether or not it would be desirous to set up not a commission but an inquiry board or a firm that makes it its business to examine into better methods of administering in order to do away with the colossal expenditure on paper in this country. The paper industry is an important one in

Canada; it is an important industry in my riding. I do not think, however, it should necessarily be subsidized by the Canadian people when we find there are so many countries desirous of obtaining paper.
I might just illustrate to the minister the fact that industry does have this same difficulty and that it is recognized from time to time. I understand there was a certain firm in the United States that examined into its paper work. In the railway committee this year I inquired of Donald Gordon if we were doing anything in this respect in the railway business and he indicated to me the railway had given it some thought and not only that but they had revised their filing system at the suggestion of experts. Perhaps this question should be examined to see if any improvement could be made in the government.
The government of the United States is the only one that is carrying out this type of work, to the best of my knowledge. They found, for instance, that for each federal government employee they issued 25,000 pieces of paper per year. They compared that with certain industries and 1 must admit some of the industries were worse than the government in this respect. One industry issued 34,000 pieces of paper per employee per year, another one issued 56,000 and a third issued 64,000. Perhaps we do not issue too many pieces of paper per employee per year in the government but I do say we are spending too much money for paper work when we continue to send out bulletins in envelopes of this size.
(Translation):


Mr. Dufresne:: Mr. Chairman, about the civil service commission I wish to make a few brief comments, and I shall also take the liberty of addressing one or two questions to the hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Pinard).
If I remember well, in September of last year, I think, Mr. Bland, the then chairman of the civil service commission, retired and was replaced by Mr. Nelson, the present incumbent, who, I am told, has all the qualifications and knowledge required for such a high post. He is being assisted by a compatriot of mine from the province of Quebec, Mr. Alexandre Boudreau, also a member of the commission. In view of the importance of this organization, I wonder whether or not the department intends to fill
Supply-Secretary of State as soon as possible the vacancy created by the retirement of Mr. Bland.
I understand that Messrs. Boudreau and Nelson are not on too friendly terms, with consequent inconvenience in the first place to themselves, and perhaps more particularly to the commission itself.
As things now stand at the civil service commission, I sense a danger, because those who have to deal with the various commissioners must of necessity meet them individually, since they are not together, and the danger I sense is that we are human as are also members of the commission, and because the party now in power is so mighty, numerically, we can well fear that pressures be exerted individually on the commissioners in favour of some applicant who has taken part in competition for any position in the civil service.
I am also informed that, since Easter 1951, there has not been a full meeting of the commission. I am going to repeat this, as the hon. Secretary of State's attention was directed elsewhere. As I said, I am informed -and have every reason to believe that the information is reliable-that the commission has not held a plenary sitting since Easter 1951; I mean that there has been no recorded official meeting attended by the secretary of the commission.
I submit these few remarks to the hon. Secretary of State, because I trust he will give the matter his best attention and will correct this anomaly which, to my mind, is deplorable and should not be.
As to the appointment of the third commissioner, I think, if I remember rightly, that it was the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) who, last year, suggested the appointment of a woman commissioner. Nobody objected to this suggestion, and I believe that the government tried, by various means, to find a woman who would accept this appointment.
However, may I be permitted to submit to the house that this commission cannot be efficient unless it is fully staffed at the executive level, unless all its members are present, unless they meet periodically and unless proper records are kept of the proceedings at their meetings. Should the government experience any difficulty in finding a woman to fill the post now vacant within the commission, I suggest that this appointment be made in any event without further delay, in the interests of the commission, to begin with, and of all its employees.
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Supply-Secretary of State
I have nothing more to add on this point, Mr. Chairman. I have directed these remarks to the Secretary of State who will no doubt take them into serious consideration.
Before concluding, I would like to ask whether it would not be possible-this is a mere suggestion-to bring under the civil service commission all the stenographers at present employed in the House of Commons. Everybody knows that, for the last few years, House of Commons stenographers are employed, just as we are, for the best part of the year. In 1955 the session lasted eight months; the year before it had lasted seven. This year it will certainly run into its eighth month. If, after a close study of the matter, it could be decided to bring these women and girls under the civil service commission in order to give them stable employment, for which they would be paid on an annual basis, I think it would prove to be a great help to a number of them.


Roch Pinard: Mr. Chairman, I wish to
answer briefly some of the points raised by the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Dufresne).
He raised a number of them. If I remember rightly he began by referring to the allegedly strained relations which exist-or so he was told-between the present two members of the commission, Messrs. Nelson and Alexandre Boudreau.
I must say that, since July 1, 1954, that is to say from the time I was first called upon as a cabinet minister to concern myself more directly with the work of the commission,
I have had no occasion to observe that such a state of affairs did, in fact, exist. I am obviously not in a position to say whether there are any personal differences between them that could justify such a statement. However, as far as I am concerned, I have always found among them a desire to cooperate, and I had on various occasions the opportunity of seeing them together and of working with them. I have always been on excellent terms with the members of the commission.
The hon. member also mentioned the vacancy that has existed since the retirement of Mr. Bland, the former chairman of the commission.
Indeed, it is important that the commission be at its full establishment although two members constitute a quorum for its sittings. Besides, that is a wish which I expressed
[Mr. Dufresne.l

myself on various occasions, a wish that I would like to implement at the earliest possible moment. I may add that that is a position the government will have to take in due course and that, when a decision is made, I shall announce it to the house. The Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has already indicated, in January, that the government intended to appoint a lady to fill the position of third commissioner. I feel confident that the government will make this appointment within a few months. We shall then have a full commission that will be able to carry out its work more efficiently.
The hon. member for Quebec West also stated that the commission or the commissioners had not met formally, so to speak, since 1951. That may be because of the fact that the commissioners, who were in the habit of keeping minutes of their meetings, decided to do without these minutes for reasons best known to themselves, which they however explained to me, and also for reasons of economy. They thought it advisable to act on that decision but they still keep, I am sure, a rather complete summary of their meetings. I must also point out to my hon. friend that they meet as soon as a problem arises and as often as is warranted by circumstances. Moreover, there is no doubt that they call on each other, that they see each other, and work together, even though this coming together does not take the form of an official meeting.
As for the last suggestion of my hon. friend concerning the stenographers of the House of Commons, I believe that problem is the sole concern of the House of Commons itself. That would more properly come under the estimates of the Speaker of this house.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, I would not want to leave the minister under the impression that relations are strained between Mr. Nelson and Mr. Boudreau. Besides, I did not make that statement. I am sure the minister understood that. I merely reported what has been told to me and I have no doubt that my information is correct, but I repeat that I did not make that statement myself.
However, Mr. Chairman, I feel that the members of the commission hold an important position, one which should require their presence twelve months a year.
Far be it from me to criticize the only French-speaking member of the commission, Mr. Alexandre Boudreau, whose ability is

fully recognized. However I know that, when he was sent on a special mission to Cambodia, Mr. Boudreau had to be away nearly a whole year, I believe. Unfortunately he was not replaced during his absence, and it might be interesting to know who took over the work and duties assigned to him.
The minister told us that, on the basis of a statement of the prime minister, he was confident that, perhaps within the next few months, a woman would be appointed a member of the civil service commission. I hope that it will be possible to bring this about very shortly, within a few weeks at the very utmost, since I feel that it is absolutely essential that this vacancy be filled at the earliest possible moment. I would still like to know, however, if the minister has enough information at this time to tell us whether this new woman member of the commission will be chosen from among the present personnel of this body, and if she has shown herself to be competent in this regard.
The minister also referred to what I have called official meetings of the commission. He told us that, according to the information at his disposal, the course taken had been chosen for reasons of economy. I frankly believe that whoever gave him that information is quite irresponsible. To my mind it is not possible to save any money by refusing to have the secretary present at these official meetings of the commission. I will even go so far as to suggest that these meetings should be held periodically.
As to the stenographers of the House of Commons, whom I mentioned just now, I thank the hon. minister for his information. They are, no doubt, under the jurisdiction of the house itself, and I shall be pleased to raise the point during the discussion concerning the Speaker's estimates.


Roch Pinard: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a few very brief observations following the supplementary remarks just made by the hon. member for .Quebec West.
First of all, so far as the absence of the French-speaking commissioner, Mr. Boudreau, is concerned, which extended from November 1954 until May 1955, I must point out to my hon. friend that, during this period, Mr. Boudreau carried out some work of great value for the United Nations, which should be recognized. His absence was, nevertheless, made up for by one of the most competent French-speaking officials of the commission, 67509-361
Supply-Secretary of State the assistant director of the classification division, Mr. George Gauthier, who replaced him and rendered valuable services to the commission. On many occasions, I had the opportunity to have talks with him, which were highly profitable to both of us. 1 think he too deserves congratulations for the excellent job he accomplished in the absence of commissioner Boudreau.
The hon. member for Quebec West also asked for information concerning the woman who will eventually be appointed commissioner, to fill the existing vacancy. I must say, in this regard no decision has yet been taken which would allow me to answer his question constructively.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, just a word about Mr. Boudreau's journey. I have always recognized Mr. Boudreau's ability, and the fact that the government entrusted him with this mission at the United Nations really proves his competency. I merely sought to shed some light on the situation. I thank the minister for the information he gave me concerning Mr. Gauthier. There is no doubt that, if he is from the province of Quebec, and if it was considered advisable that he should replace Mr. Boudreau, he must have had all the required qualifications, and it was a pleasure for me to hear the minister pay him such an eloquent tribute.
(Text):


Mr. Regier:: Mr. Chairman, there is one
aspect of the work of the civil service commission about which I should like to say a few words. I am rather amused when I hear arguments put forth from time to time by various members of the house in which they hurl such charges as patronage and so on at the government so far as appointments to the civil service are concerned. I think I can say fairly honestly that in the province of British Columbia a federal civil service position is one of the lowliest of positions to which a wage earner can aspire. It is only those people who have a socal consciousness, who are willing to put aside their selfish interests, who are willing to serve the community rather than acquire any money for themselves, who are willing to work for the federal government.
As an aside, I should like to recommend to the civil service commission that an application for a position with the federal government that is accompanied by a recommendation from the local member of parliament

Supply-Secretary of State should be automatically ruled out because in my opinion any would-be civil servant who does not hold the necessary qualifications for the position and needs the support of a local politician should be automatically disqualified.
I am not one to condone waste on the part of any department of the government, and that also includes the civil service. Like the hon. member for New Westminster, who has already spoken, I was a little surprised this morning when I received this huge, impressive looking envelope containing only three or four sheets of paper all of which could have been enclosed quite adequately in a much smaller envelope or might not even have needed an envelope at all but only my name on the outside of the folder.
I want to speak about one aspect of the civil service commission that has for some time now, at least to those of us in the west, seemed most unrealistic, and that is its failure to recognize the salaries that are available to men of ability with qualifications in fields other than the civil service. Just as one example, I hold in my hand an advertisement by the civil service commission asking for applicants for the position of superintendent of schools at Fort Smith in the Northwest Territories. The salary offered is $5,330 to $5,970 per annum. I have in my other hand a copy of the latest issue of the B. C. Teacher wherein they publish the salary scales obtaining for the province of British Columbia. I see that the city of Vancouver offers a teacher with similar qualifications, but without having to assume any responsibility of supervision or superintending whatsoever, a salary as high as $6,200 a year. New Westminster offers $5,900 a year. In Burnaby they are offered a possible $6,050 a year. I could go on further. In West Vancouver they are offering $6,200 a year. This is for the ordinary classroom teacher. The civil service commission attempts to obtain a superintendent of schools at $5,330. We can well imagine what sort of applicant they are likely to get. I see that the commission itself recognizes the utter ridiculousness of the situation because under the qualifications they call for a provincial first-class teaching certificate. In other words, the civil service commission is quite prepared to send a man who has a first-class teacher's certificate up into that part of Canada to be a superintendent of schools and to be superior to the principals there who may have their Bachelor's degree, their Master's degree or possibly even their Doctor's degree and are likely to know one hundred times as much about the profession as does the so-called federal civil servant, the superintendent of schools.

I have another circular here in which an assistant superintendant of schools at Fort Smith is called for at a salary of $4,750 a year. Some of our primary teachers in western Canada receive that salary without any degree whatsoever. Then I have another one here calling for a current affairs officer for the Department of National Defence, a most responsible position, where a man is supposed to be responsible for the supplying of reliable information for the education of members of our armed services-adults-in Canada. They call for graduation from a university, majoring in history, economics or geography. They call for a number of years' experience in the writing of articles and the editing of manuscripts. They are offering the magnificent sum of $4,750 which again, I submit, is most unrealistic.
Economists are called for by the Department of Agriculture. In information circular No. 56-18 the terms of employment are given. Salaries begin at $3,300 per annum. Surely any economist who is willing to work for $3,300 a year must be either completely self-effacing or a worthless fellow who has been thrown into the discard heap by all the other possible employers throughout Canada.
Then we have an advertisement-and I find this advertisement all the time; I receive one of them almost every week-calling for a librarian, at a salary of $3,030. They call for a Bachelor's degree in library science. Anyone with a Bachelor's degree in library science can go to almost any one of our urban school boards and receive a salary that is much in excess of that.
Then in order to educate the members of the Canadian armed forces, they call for a staff training officer at Halifax, Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Vancouver. There is one position, grade 3, with the salary of $4,360. The qualifications are graduation from a university of recognized standing; responsible work experience, part of which must have been in a supervisory capacity; ability to organize, conduct and develop courses of instruction and group discussion; ability to deal with senior officers. I could go on.
I see here that electrical engineers are called for and are being offered $6,840 per annum whereas I understand that an electrical engineer worth his salt is worth $18,000 in private industry any day. However, I think this is one of the best of them all. They call for customs excise officers in Quebec-where it may be a good salary; I do not now-and also in British Columbia at a salary of $215 a month.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: It is not any better in Quebec than it is any place else.


Erhart Regier: It is not a decent salary even in the province of Quebec; thank you. No decent, self-respecting individual who has a family to look after is going to consider a salary of $215 a month. You cannot maintain a household these days on that salary. I am not surprised when we find complaints against the manner of service offered by the civil servants of Canada when that is what the commission thinks is an adequate remuneration.
Then they call for information and records engineers and offer a salary up to $4,620 a year. Many people completely unskilled in any profession at all in western Canada earn that much in a year. Another position advertised is that of hospital nursing assistant. The salary offered is $1,920 a year. For ward clerks they offer $1,800 a year. A waitress working in any cafe in eastern Canada, if she includes the tips she gets, would not consider looking at a salary like that. It used to be an honour throughout Canada to be an employee of the government of Canada. It is no longer so today. I realize the civil service commission is not entirely to blame but I do feel in the relationships the civil service commission's recommendations play a very important part.
Here I find the Canadian pension commission is asking for doctors for $6,700 a year. I doubt very much whether you can find an honest, reputable doctor in Canada who will admit that he earns only $6,700 a year. We must remember one thing in connection with these young people. When they apply for these positions, we at least hope that they intend to make a lifetime career in the public service. When we offer a doctor $6,700 a year I submit that we are not inviting him in any way shape or form to make the public service a career. I see lawyers being called for by the department of the Minister of Justice and being offered $5,700 a year. An LL.B. degree from a university is not sufficient; oh, no. They must have been admitted to the bar. They must have had experience. Yet they are being offered less than $500 a month. Miners in British Columbia earn that kind of money. You do not need a university degree or you do not need to be admitted to the bar and to have served a period of apprenticeship to merit that type of salary.
I see that a lecturer in civil engineering is called for. He has not only to be a civil engineer but he must be able to lecture in civil engineering. He is being offered less than $400 a month; the salary offered is $4,620 a year. Then I see that they are asking for a lecturer in economics. Not only must he be an able economist himself but he must be able to lecture to others in
67509-361J
Supply-Secretary of State economics. The salary offered is $4,620 a year. I have others here. I see that a dental surgeon is being called for. I should not say that one is being called for. I see there are vacancies at Quebec city, Moose Factory, Sioux Lookout, North Battleford, Prince Albert, Regina, Calgary, Prince Rupert, Chilliwack, Vancouver, Fort Smith and Aklavik. This shows what is happening as a result of the unrealistic attitude taken by the civil service commission. They need not one dental surgeon but they have vacancies in six different places in Canada at the same time.
Now, this is one particular occupation about which I have had a lot of complaints. The Indians of Canada are not receiving the dental care with which the minister would like to supply them and the main reason, I am informed, is the inadequacy of the salaries being offered to dental surgeons. We see evidence of that when they list vacancies at 12 different places in Canada at one and the same time. The commission is offering a salary of $6,300 a year. I realize that since the time some of these figures I have read into the records were published there has been an increase for most of the civil servants in Canada, if not all. However, I am confident that even with the increase the relative position of these people as opposed to those in private enterprise or those who enlist for service in municipal and other governmental institutions in Canada will show that the federal service is becoming a beggar's job indeed. It is only the loyalty of those people that causes them to continue to serve.
There is one more advertisement I want to put on the record and it is for a lecturer in chemistry at the Royal Military College, Kingston. He is offered the magnificent sum of $4,950 per annum. It is not surprising, Mr. Chairman, that so many of these forms give evidence of the desperate situation in which the civil service commission finds itself. These advertisements list not only the salary but the benefits as well. They make a big noise about the other benefits the servant will receive, such as three weeks' annual holidays; sick leave; contributory superannuation; optional hospital and medical insurance plan and low cost term insurance. These things are not news to the average young man walking into the post office in New Westminster. Since we have no post office in Burnaby, I cannot mention that.
A young man walks in and reads these advertisements. He sees all these other benefits, but he finds nothing exceptional in them. Out west these things are no longer mentioned in advertisements for employees. They are accepted as the natural benefits that employees
5680	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State receive. Almost anyone working for a worthwhile organization, anyone belonging to a union, enjoys these benefits and more than those listed here. I realize there may be places where they are an added lure with which to get the innocent into the civil service. However, I feel the time is long overdue in Canada when we must once again make the remuneration of civil servants such that other people in Canada will want to apply for a position in the civil service. This should be an occupation that is looked upon, not with pity, but in a manner that would foster in the young people of Canada a desire to serve the community at large in the knowledge that if they did serve the community at large they would be well rewarded or rewarded at least as well as the average person who does not work for the community at large but in his own more immediate interest.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, everything that has been said by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam regarding the western provinces also applies to my province of Quebec.


Mr. Bell:: I wonder if the minister is in a position to say what changes are being made in the civil service commission offices in the maritimes. Specifically, I should like to know why it was necessary to move the office from Saint John to Moncton. I should like to know what plans are being made for Halifax. Will the office remain there? I should like to know also if any other changes are contemplated.


Roch Pinard: I have just been informed, and the hon. gentleman will probably be pleased to hear, that there are no further changes contemplated in that section of his province. Those changes that have taken place were for the purpose of trying to centralize the work of the commission in one office instead of having offices which did not serve the purposes the commission must keep in mind.


Thomas Miller Bell: Do I have my information correct, then, that the main office for the maritimes now will be in Moncton, and they will keep sub-offices in Saint John and Halifax?


Roch Pinard: That is correct, yes.


Mr.   Carier@: I should like to say a few words about the civil service commission. Like my friend the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam, I too studied the civil service notices that have been issued for various competitions. It seems to me that the civil service commission is tending to defeat its own ends in many ways. I agree with the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam that the salaries offered are small when

compared with the qualifications that are required. The argument has been put forward that civil service salaries are small in comparison with industrial salaries because of the security factor. This argument does not hold up, because so far as I can see today the civil servant does not have any more security than he would have in industrial life.
I know of two gentlemen in my own riding who were civil servants before confederation. In accordance with the terms of union, they were taken into the federal civil service, but their positions were washed out. They were operators of a bait depot. The department leased the bait depots to private interests and those jobs were washed out. I believe these people had had 10 years' service and had been looking forward to superannuation, but the job disappeared and their security disappeared along with it. The security factor, therefore, is not an argument in favour of low salaries.
The other thing I should like to point out is that the qualifications that are listed often make such great demands that it narrows the number of people who apply. There are a good many people who are capable, who are honest people and who are modest. They read these qualifications and say, "Well, I am not good enough for that, so I will not apply." They do not apply because they do not feel they have the qualifications listed and it is no use for them to do so. What happens then? Some person who is not nearly so modest will apply, and when the competition is run you get a number of people who are, perhaps, inferior to the people who would have applied if the qualifications listed had not made such high demands.
The other point that occurs to me in connection with this problem is that the application forms for civil service positions require almost a person's biography. He has to list all his previous jobs for the last 10 years and I believe that, too, defeats the purpose the commission had in mind because very often the applicant is a jack-of-all-trades. He has certain qualities which do not enable him to keep the job he has, so he flits from one job to another. He may fill out the whole back of the sheet with the 10 or 12 different positions that he has had within the past 10 years, and he gets credit for that and also for his experience, and very often it is the wrong kind of experience that he gets credit for. I would suggest that the commission revise these forms and also the requirements they ask for when they advertise these positions.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the Secretary of State a question. I presume

ttiat civil servants throughout Canada have a standard lunch hour. Do any of the officials in any of the departments consider that they have some control over what the civil servant does during his or her lunch hour, or is the civil servant in question entirely free to do what he or she wishes at that time?


Roch Pinard: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the only answer I can give is that I have just been informed the civil service commission feels that during the lunch hour civil servants should be considered as persons who are in a position to eat their meals quietly and to digest them properly so that they should not be obliged to report and say what they are going to eat and at what time they are going to eat. They are perfectly free in that lunch hour.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The time is entirely at their own disposal?


Roch Pinard: Oh, yes.


Frederick George Hahn: Mr. Chairman, I was unavoidably absent from the chamber for a few minutes. Perhaps the minister has some observations to make with respect to the use of envelopes that I raised earlier. I do want to pose another question that he might reply to at the same time. I have been informed that the minister did not give an answer to my question about the envelopes but he might care to say something about it. According to the details, the expenditure on office stationery, supplies and equipment is down from $110,000 to $98,000. Where does the department expect to make the saving?


Roch Pinard: I am sorry, I did not hear the number of the item.


Frederick George Hahn: The details of the item appear on page 167 under "Office stationery, supplies and equipment."


Roch Pinard: Yes, $9,000.


Frederick George Hahn: It is down from $110,000 last year.


Roch Pinard: Yes. That is the one to which my hon. friend made reference a few minutes ago. I gather he said he was pleased to see a reduction in the use of office stationery. Then, he added, in spite of that he felt there should be more economies in the civil service commission and that they should not use a very large envelope to send out what could be contained in a smaller envelope. I must admit that to a certain extent I share that view, and as much economy as possible should be practised. All I can say is that I shall draw the attention of the commission to what the hon. member has said. I am sure that his remarks have been appreciated and that precautions will be taken not to spoil paper
Supply-Secretary of State in this department any more than in any other department of government.


Frederick George Hahn: May I make a further recommendation that may be acceptable to the department? I appreciate their acceptance of my views in this respect up to now. Instead of putting the material in envelopes it should be folded and put through the mail much in the same manner as other literature we receive today.


The Chairman:: Shall the resolution carry? (Translation):


Mr. Girard:: Mr. Chairman, in November 1954, the Canadian Press reported that the bureau of statistics had decided to take a census which would likely be carried out in 1956. I believe that such census is now under way or just about completed. The same report added that, on this census, which is now being taken, if my information is correct, the matters of racial descent, mother tongue or religion are disregarded. It was explained at the time that this was being done to save money. There is a definite tendency to eliminate from our statistics certain items which are particularly useful to minorities.
On the 1951 census, the population of British descent was divided in four different groups: English, Scotch and others. In 1951, only one total figure was recorded for the whole population of British origin. As I say, this change favours a particular group. Since 1951, there has been no survey of racial origins in county subdivisions. A crosscheck-


Roch Pinard: If the hon. member will
allow me to interrupt him, I should like to ask him a question. If his remarks concern the current census I might point out that this matter comes directly under the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe). Obviously, the appointment of some census officers had to be made indirectly through the civil service commission. However, I believe that the hon. member's remarks bear on the census itself and should be directed to my colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
At any rate, I would not be in a position to answer because that is a matter with which I am not familiar and which is the exclusive concern of the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Fernand Girard: All these matters are the exclusive responsibility of the Minister of Trade and Commerce?


Roch Pinard: Yes, that is correct.
5682	HOUSE OF
Supply-Secretary of State
(Text):


Mr.   Carler@: Mr. Chairman, there is another matter that I should like to bring before the civil service commission that slipped my mind when I was speaking a few minutes ago. I refer to the matter of semi-staff post offices in Newfoundland. In Newfoundland we have very few staff and semi-staff post offices, probably not more that 20 or 30. For purposes of morale among the postal staff it is desirable that there be promotions. When a person has served faithfully in a small office and a vacancy occurs in an office that is a little larger and pays a little better salary there should be an opportunity to promote a person from the smaller office to the larger office, from the smaller salary to the larger salary. That does not happen, and the reason it does not happen is that a ruling was made by the civil service commission. I brought this to their attention last year in the case of one of my post offices. There were several people who applied for the vacancy who were also experienced postmasters. They had spent several years in the service. The civil service commission ruled that the post office vacancy had to be filled from the patrons of that post office. Instead of promoting a person who had served faithfully for 10 or 12 years, instead of giving him something to look forward to in the service, they took somebody from the community with no experience whatever and placed him in charge of that post office. That seems to me to be not only undesirable but senseless, but it is the ruling that the civil service commission made. It is one that is detrimental to the postal service in Newfoundland. I would ask the civil service commission to revise their rulings in the matter.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the resolution carry?


Mr. Barnett:: Mr. Chairman. I have one or two questions I should like to ask concerning these estimates. Some little time ago when we were discussing the estimates of the Department of Fisheries I raised the matter of the compulsory retirement of fishery patrolmen, on the Pacific coast at least, at the age of 65. The consideration of the estimates of that department was interrupted before that matter had received any final consideration and I would therefore like to ask now whether that situation exists because of a ruling or general policy established by the civil service commission or whether it is something that lies entirely within the discretion of the Department of Fisheries itself. I wonder if the minister could give me an answer to that question.


Roch Pinard: Mr. Chairman, I have just been informed that this is entirely a matter of
[Mr. Pinard.l

departmental administration. The age of retirement in these cases depends entirely on the policy of the department concerned.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I have one other question which is entirely unrelated. I notice on page 167 of the details of the estimates there is an item concerning memberships in personnel organizations in the amount of $600, an increase of $100 from last year. I wonder if the minister could explain to the committee just what that item involves, what personnel organizations the civil service commission belongs to and the purpose of that membership?


Roch Pinard: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am informed that this item listed as memberships in personnel organizations which has been increased by $100 this year provides membership in the civil service assembly, the American society of public administration and the national office management association. These are associations with which the civil service commission maintains close relationships throughout the entire year.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: This item pays for the membership of official representatives of the civil service commission?


Roch Pinard: Yes, in these organizations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Printing and Stationery-
337. Departmental administration, $518,347.
Erhart Regier: Mr. Chairman, I believe the printing of Hansard comes under the department of public printing and stationery and I would like to transmit to the minister one request that has been made the subject of a number of resolutions recently passed by several organizations in the Fraser valley. What these people are asking for is that free subscriptions to Hansard in either French or English be supplied to every high school in the Dominion of Canada. I may be wrong but I understand that the public libraries of Canada receive Hansard at the present time.


Roch Pinard: Yes, 31 libraries in Canada automatically receive Hansard without asking for it on a regular basis, and the other librarians must ask for Hansard to be sent to them before they receive it.


Erhart Regier: I realize there may be some libraries which would not be interested in the proceedings of the Canadian parliament and therefore it might be advisable to make them ask for it. However, all the high schools in Canada do teach government and in all of the high schools we find that at least some of the students-and I hope the number is growing-are interested in what occurs in

the Canadian House of Commons. Not only would supplying Hansard to them be a means of federal aid to education, but since the government is willing to spend $1,750 million a year for the defence department for the maintenance of our so-called way of life this would also give high school students an opportunity to find out for themselves exactly how our government operates.
I realize that a great many hon. members of this house are supplying high schools in their own constituencies with copies of Hansard. However, we get only 16 complimentary copies and we are asked to mail in our complimentary subscription list. I may be more fortunate than other hon. members because there are only five high schools in my riding and I have placed them all on my complimentary mailing list. I can very easily, however, find 16 extremely interested individuals who would like to be placed on my complimentary mailing list and 1 do not think it should be up to me to supply the high schools in my riding with complimentary copies of Hansard. I think the government of Canada should supply such subscriptions in the interest of the maintenance and the development of our democratic form of government.


Mr. Bryson:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to support what has just been said by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam with respect to supplying copies of Hansard to high schools throughout the country. In my own riding there are approximately 40 high schools and they write to me requesting copies of Hansard. I think it is something that should be of interest to all of us, to see that the high schools are supplied because they are showing a great interest in the affairs of the country. I believe this is something to which the minister should give further consideration.


Roch Pinard: Well, Mr. Chairman, this request appears to me to be quite reasonable. Actually, the universities and colleges do receive Hansard and although the cost of Hansard is only $3 per year it would appear to me that if we can supply free copies to Canadian universities and colleges the request is reasonable in relation to high schools. The distribution of publications is regulated by an order in council at the moment. I will look into the matter and see what can be done about it.


Mr. Hansell:: Would the minister care to tell us what the total subscription is to Hansard throughout Canada and what revenue is derived therefrom?
Supply-Secretary of State


Roch Pinard: I am sorry but I do not appear to be able to obtain that information immediately but I will try to secure it for my hon. friend. I can say at the moment that roughly 12,000 copies of Hansard are printed every day, but as far as the rest of the information is concerned I shall endeavour to obtain it at the earliest possible moment.


Erhart Regier: Since the minister gave such a kind and sympathetic answer to the request I made, I for one should like to express for the record my appreciation of the capable and efficient manner in which Hansard is compiled. Almost without fail it is in our mail at 11 o'clock on the following day. I think that is a record worthy of commendation.


Mr. Churchill:: Mr. Chairman, concerning the distribution of Hansard, would the minister inform us as to the time element involved in mailing Hansard to outside points? We receive it here very quickly but there is a considerable delay in Hansard going through the mail to points elsewhere in Canada.


Roch Pinard: All I can say, Mr. Chairman, is that Hansard is put in the mail to all points in Canada the very same day after it has been printed except on very rare occasions when this cannot be done because of late sittings or other extraordinary circumstances.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: While we are on this subject, could the minister give an indication of what the circulation of the new cumulative index of Hansard is?


Roch Pinard: We print 1,000 copies. As the hon. member knows, this has just been initiated. It just began this year, and it is not used outside yet except to a certain extent. Steps are being taken so that all those who receive Hansard are informed of the existence of that index, which will be sent to everyone just as soon as that can be done.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Do I understand the minister to say that the plan is that as soon as arrangements can be completed it will be included with the subscription to Hansard?


Roch Pinard: Yes, the index will be sent to subscribers as well.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: That is the point I was wondering about.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Roch Pinard: Before we finish with these items, I may be allowed to revert to the items concerning the Department of the Secretary of State, to put on record, as a result of a question that was asked by the
5684	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys hon. member for Prince Albert, the list of those members of the awards co-ordination committee who were sitting when the award was made to Mr. Chipman to which I referred yesterday. The list is as follows: The chairman was the under secretary of state, as I have indicated, and the other members were as follows:
Mr. J. F. Delaute, secretary to the Governor General (administrative),
Rear-Admiral H. S. Rayner, (navy), Department of National Defence,
Air Commodore C. H. Greenway, (air force), Department of National Defence, Colonel R. B. McDougall, (army), Department of National Defence,
Mr. K. Lamb, dominion archivist,
Mr. D. McGreer, Department of External Affairs,
Captain F. S. Slocombe, Department of Transport,
Mr. J. H. Curry, Department of Labour, Mr. H. Measures, Department of the Secretary of State,
Miss A. M. Mosley, Department of the Secretary of State, secretary.
Mr. Pallet!: There is one question arising out of the minister's answer. I understood yesterday that he said that the personnel changed from time to time. Is that correct?


Roch Pinard: Those were the persons present when this award was considered, but it happens at times that one or another member of this committee may be replaced by somebody else of his department.
DEPARTMENT OP MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS A-Department-
Administration services-
209. Departmental administration, $510,190.


William Alfred Robinson: Hon. members will find this vote on page 42 of the blue book of estimates and the details commencing on page 278. Shall the item carry?


Hon. George Prudham (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: In the past two years, at the request of some members of the committee, the estimates of the dominion coal board were taken up first. Although the matter of the estimates of the dominion coal board is still very important, I would suggest that we follow the items as printed in the book this year.
The year 1955, with a mineral production figure close to $1,800 million has proven a new all-time record year for Canada. In the last few years the estimates of total production have all fallen short and proven to 

be on the low side, and the $2 billion mark at which the industry has been aiming and hoped to reach by 1960 will probably be reached this year.
Numerous new mining properties with good production potential continue to emerge right across Canada. At the turn of the year, no less than 60 mine shafts were being sunk in Canada on properties in advanced stage of exploration or development. Of particular significance is Canada's fast increasing production of iron ore, petroleum and uranium. Our iron ore production jumped spectacularly from 7-3 million tons in 1954 to 17-3 million tons in 1955. Indications are that the production of iron ore in 1956 will be greatly increased.
The search for uranium ores and the proving up of properties still held the spotlight in 1955. Special contracts signed with the Eldorado Mining and Refining Company on the closing date of March 31 last, as well as letters of intent to sign contracts, involve a total of over $700 million for the purchase of uranium precipitates. As these contracts call for delivery before March 31, 1962, we may well expect increasingly high production figures.
Petroleum still topped the list in Canada in 1955, with a production figure of over $300 million, an increase of $59 million over the 1954 production. Most of the petroleum output is from Alberta, but it is noteworthy indeed that both Manitoba and Saskatchewan doubled their production in 1955 over the previous year.
The search for and the development of minerals involves a very high element of risk, and the work of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is intended, by research and by the development of new methods and techniques and by improved mapping, to reduce as far as possible that element of risk. The mineral industry, by its production of new wealth, provides a very important stimulus to the whole economy of the nation. The benefits of this production of new wealth extend right into every household in Canada. Because of the hardships and the high element of risk involved, the industry attracts people who have the qualities of adventure, persistence and resourcefulness. I am pleased to state that the relationship between the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and the mineral industry has been excellent.
Following our custom of recent years, the department has prepared another summary of activities for the year 1955, which is in the hands of hon. members, as is our annual report. I trust that this summary of activities

has proven useful, and I would invite comments from hon. members. Someone usually asks the cost of the production of the summary. I am told it cost $240 to produce it this year.
I should like for a few minutes to review the organization and the work of the various branches of the department and the divisions of those branches, as related to the amounts of money requested in the estimates for this year.
The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys exists primarily to aid the growth of the mining industry in Canada and to provide the necessary surveys for exploration and development of our natural resources. It is fundamentally an investigative department, and for purposes of administration is divided into five branches as follows:
1.	Surveys and mapping branch, with a hydrographic regional office in Victoria, B.C.
2.	The geological survey of Canada, with five regional offices, namely, in Vancouver, Yellowknife, Whitehorse, Calgary and Sydney.
3.	The mines branch, with a regional fuels division in Alberta.
4.	The geographical branch.
5.	The dominion observatory in Ottawa and the dominion astrophysical observatory in Victoria, B.C., with other substations.
I should like to deal first with the surveys and mapping branch. One of the divisions of its responsibilities is air photography. Before the last war there were great stretches of country, particularly in the north, that had no maps whatever, or if they had maps they were only based on traverses along a river where a traveller had made some rough sketches. Air photography has changed this completely. Originally the flying was mainly done by the R.C.A.F., but the appropriations as now provided by this department call for contract flying of areas selected according to their greatest need for both military and civilian purposes. In the fiscal year ended March, 1956, this department expects to spend its appropriation of $1,250,000 and a supplementary estimate of $550,000 for this purpose and for the present fiscal year we are requesting $1,500,000.
In order to get maps during the war, the north was covered by a trimetrogon system of pictures which consists of one vertical and two lateral oblique photographs taken at the same time. These pictures allowed the preparation of general maps on the scale of 1 inch to 8 miles. These were satisfactory for air navigation and reconnaissance investigations of the geology and mineral deposits, but too limited in accuracy for more detailed
5, 1956	5685
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys study. Consequently, all areas that were covered in a preliminary way by trimetrogon photographs are now gradually being covered by vertical photography. Much of the flying is done at about 30,000 feet to give wider coverage with less flying than at lower levels. Lower flying will be required in some areas for greater details of topography or for special purposes. All this is arranged through an interdepartmental committee on air photography of which the deputy minister of this department is chairman. Under favourable weather conditions it will be possible to have the whole of Canada, exclusive of the Arctic islands, covered by vertical photography by the end of 1957. There will be a continuing need for further photography taken at various heights to meet special requirements, such as forest inventory, geology, power development, defence projects, flood control and others.
I come now to the geodetic survey. In order to place map sheets in their proper relationship to one another and in their proper place in reference to longitude and latitude, it is necessary that a triangulation net of points be fixed in reference to one another. Also, in order that the surveyed altitude of various points may have true relations to one another and to the datum at sea level, their elevations must be determined with precision. Formerly, in fixing triangulation points, the geodetic survey built signalling towers and, by a rather slow process of observing angles between stations, built up a triangulation net in which all points of observations were accurately determined. Following the war this older method was replaced, in the north particularly, by modern electronic methods. By these it is possible to measure lines 300 miles in length with a precision of 20 feet.
This work by the geodetic survey has been done in conjunction with the R.C.A.F., and has become a model for geodetic work for all undeveloped parts of the world. It has allowed us in a few years to extend a triangulation net for accurate mapping from southern Manitoba to the Arctic and across the Arctic islands to Labrador where it will be joined to a net from the St. Lawrence area. This work has already occupied five field seasons, and several more will be required to complete it. Necessarily, expenditures for such surveys are heavy, but in relation to former slower and more laborious methods the unit cost per square mile is very much less. In fact, the work that is being done would be impossible by the older methods owing to the remoteness and isolation of most of the areas that are now being covered.
For the work of the geodetic survey for the coming year we are asking for $567,786, an
5686	HOUSE OF
Supply

Mines and Technical Surveys increase of $12,848 over the previous year. The geodetic survey has 52 permanent employees of which the technical staff, highly skilled in surveying methods and in mathematics, numbers 30. The chief of this division is also the head of the Canadian section of the international boundary commission which is responsible for the surveying and maintenance of all international boundary lines and monuments. For this fiscal year it is estimated that $58,060 will be needed for this purpose, a decrease of $3,021 from the previous year.
Next I will deal with the topographical survey branch. The actual physical features shown on our maps by contour lines result from the work of the topographical survey. This division uses the precise elevations and the fixed points established by the geodetic survey.
In the preparation of maps, air photographs are used extensively. During and since the war great progress has been made in using various types of plotting instruments to transfer information from air photographs to a map surface.
The work of the topographer in secondary triangulation and in obtaining field data has been greatly speeded up by the use of helicopters. These are used most effectively in country relatively free of timber. They have also proven very efficient in extensive mapping we have done in the Yukon, in the Northwest Territories and in Labrador. In fact, their use is essential if map making is to keep pace with the demands of the mineral industry and for other purposes. The use of helicopters with supporting aircraft is very expensive, but the unit cost per square mile has been greatly reduced by the greater amount of country covered in one season. There has been as much as a tenfold increase for a single field party over older methods and better results are obtained. For the topographical survey for the present fiscal year we are asking for $1,690,232, a decrease of $27,833 from the previous year.
The next division is legal surveys and aeronautical charts. Legal surveys are necessary for land subdivision and are carried out under the direction of the surveyor general. They are done by this department as a service to other departments such as northern affairs and national resources and for the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Provincial boundary surveys are carried out in conjunction with the various provinces. Necessarily, legal surveys need to be done with accuracy and by well qualified land surveyors. We have found difficulty in maintaining an adequate staff to meet the demands that are being made on us because there is a great attraction for this
[Mr. Prudham.l

type of surveyor in private enterprise owing to Canada's rapid expansion.
This division is also responsible for the production of Canadian aeronautical charts according to a world standard set by international agreement, and it co-operates with the Department of Transport in the publication of the Canada Air Pilot.
The division also prepares descriptions of the electoral districts of Canada according to the Representation Act and issues the electoral maps. For the provincial and territorial boundary surveys we are asking for $50,725 for this fiscal year, a decrease of $3,725 from the previous year.
The next division is the Canadian hydrographic service. Our hydrographic service performs a very important function in charting our coasts and our inland waters, measuring tidal currents and levels, and issuing charts and tables for shipping. We have three major vessels on the Pacific coast and four on the eastern coast. Also, for the past several years we have chartered two boats for northern work on the east coast, and we have other smaller boats on inland waters, including the great lakes and Great Slave lake. In fact, we use about sixteen boats in all in our work in making soundings for charts. Here again, newer sonic methods are replacing older techniques and fixation of points is being done electronically rather than by direct shore observation. Not only have such methods greatly increased the amount of work one ship can do in a season, but this work can be done out of the sight of land in such areas as the gulf of St. Lawrence and in weather when visibility is low. For our work in the north we are building a modern ship specially designed for Arctic work. It was launched two or three weeks ago and is expected to be commissioned this autumn. This vessel the Baffin will cost about $4 million and will be equipped, as I have said, with the very latest implements and also will be served by helicopters.
For the work of the hydrographic service we are asking $3,478,652 for this fiscal year. This is a decrease of $1,023,484 from the previous year, largely resulting from less payments on the construction of our new ship, the Baffin.
Map Compilation and Reproduction:
In the surveys and mapping branch we maintain a division for the compilation and printing of maps. This means we have a drafting staff, and much photographic and other equipment necessary for this work. Last year we distributed about one million maps. We have eight map-printing presses,


has continued. Certain modifications and adjustments needed for the heat exchanger have been determined as a result of work done to date. These were carried out and the turbine is now being evaluated by test runs. The runs are being made over a sufficient length of time to determine the efficiency.
This experiment has had to be continued for a much longer time than was anticipated when it began five years ago. The $50,000 requested in our estimates will bring our expenditures to $600,000. The experiment is at a critical stage, and in order to get further trial runs and a comprehensive report so that a complete evaluation may be made, we have asked for an additional $50,000 in our supplementary estimates. I believe the Minister of Finance has already done that.


Mr. Johnston (Bow River):: What is the total spent on that project to date?


George Prudham: These estimates, when approved, will bring it up to $600,000 plus another $50,000 in the supplementaries. The decision as to our future operations will be dependent on the evaluation of what the results so far have been for the money spent. A final report, we hope, will be made by the end of 1956. The fuels division plans to hold a symposium on the project in conjunction with McGill University some time this autumn, and they hope to acquaint private industry with the possible practical application of the experiment.
In our work on coal in Alberta we are co-operating with the Alberta research council. The council has built a research laboratory on the campus of the University of Alberta in Edmonton, and two or three of our officers will work in this building in direct co-operation with Alberta research employees.
Physical Metallurgy Division:
The work of the physical metallurgy division has greatly expanded due to the need for metallurgical investigations connected with atomic energy. The work of this division has had to do with the development of satisfactory alloys for special uses, as in the aircraft industry, and the testing of parts to gain knowledge of the behaviour of metals under various conditions.


The Deputy Chairman:: I must point out that the minister has spoken for thirty minutes. With the consent of the committee, he may complete his statement.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


George Prudham: We maintain a mineral
resources division which keeps an inventory

of reserves of ore in mineral deposits, and compiles and publishes information relating to the economic phases of the industry. The members of this division, under the supervision of the director general of scientific services, administer the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. They also serve on an interdepartmental committee with officials of the Department of Finance and National Revenue in relation to mine taxation problems.
Radioactivity Division:
In the radioactivity division the work is again one of the methods of processing ores, but it is largely of a chemical nature since leaching is commonly used in the treatment of radioactive minerals. The new developments in the lake Athabaska area in Saskatchewan and in the Blind river and Bancroft areas in Ontario have been spectacular in the varieties of ore bodies discovered and in the tonnages disclosed. For all these properties, milling and recovery practices have had to be established. The work of this division has contributed greatly to the success in making Canada a very important producer of uranium, especially in the work of developing methods of producing metal from low grade ore.
For mineral resources investigations, research, and acquisition of new equipment for the whole of the mines branch, we are asking $3,205,355. This is a decrease of $75,996 from the previous year.
Geographical Branch:
The geographical branch, established in 1947, carries out a number of projects in northern Canada directly related to air photo interpretation of terrain. Key areas are selected for study, and from the interpretations made from air photographs of these it is possible to make interpretations in other areas. This work is mainly for the joint intelligence bureau of national defence.
Studies of various cities are being made for the civil defence division of the Department of National Health and Welfare.
Also a compilation is made of the information relating to the distribution of ice conditions in northern Canada and in the gulf of St. Lawrence. This information is valuable to the Department of Transport in relation to navigation.
Work on the atlas of Canada has been under way for a number of years. I believe the last time I stood before this committee I thought that it would be completed this year, but that has not been possible. We have made considerable progress, but because of the priority of other projects the work on the atlas has lagged somewhat.
5, 1956
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Charles Edward Johnston: When will it be finished now?


George Prudham: It will take at least one more year, and my guess is it will take longer than that. Our expenditures for the geographical branch are expected to be $283,386 for the present fiscal year.
Dominion Observatories:
The dominion observatories in Ottawa and Victoria, B.C., are maintained by this department. Observations of stars are essential to the maintenance of a time service. This is given with a precision that is essential for longitude determination, as well as public use. The investigations carried out by two field stations at Meanook and Newbrook in northern Alberta are in relation to the rate of meteor travel in the high atmosphere. This is a subject of interest to national defence in connection with the use of high velocity projectiles. We maintain a terrestrial magnetism section at Ottawa, and through this the declination of the compass is given to our other surveys for each map sheet issued. The information collected by this section is of practical value in making aero-magnetic maps for airborne magnetometers such as are in use by our geological survey and by private interests.
Magnetic stations are maintained for observations at Agincourt, Ontario, Meanook, Alberta; Baker lake and Resolute bay, Northwest Territories. We also continue to carry out observations of gravity, and the force of gravity at many points in Canada has been determined. This is of practical application in many ways, one of which is in pipe-line construction. This is of great value as basic information in making gravity maps used as an aid to prospecting.
Seismic records are kept at the dominion observatory at Ottawa and in a more recently established station at our Victoria observatory. In all, we have 12 seismic recording stations from Halifax to the west coast.
The work of the astrophysical observatory in Victoria is concerned primarily with scientific studies relating to the composition and character of the stars, planets and interstellar materials and the application of the results to terrestrial physics.
For the dominion observatories we are asking for $814,250, an increase of $75,727 over the previous year. This increase is largely connected with our activities for the geophysical year during which world-wide observations by many countries will be correlated. The basic studies for the geophysical year are related to the influence of the sun on the upper atmosphere and hence our
5690	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys studies are primarily related to this objective. However magnetic observations are very important because of the fact that the north magnetic pole is in Canadian territory and our scientists will have an important part in these investigations.
The Explosives Act is administered by this department, which deals with the licensing, handling and storage of explosives, of which 132,824,000 pounds were produced for commercial purposes in Canada in 1955. The expenditures for this, including a small testing laboratory maintained in Ottawa, are expected to be $107,865 for this fiscal year, an increase of $9,525. A new explosives factory at Seven Islands is now in operation and another factory is under construction at North Bay, and these will involve additional inspection services.
This department, as I have said, administers the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act which was extended by parliament recently at the same rate for the years 1957 and 1958. As hon. members are aware, the amount paid is based on a formula in relation to the cost of producing an ounce of gold. Our estimated expenditures for this fiscal year are $16,431,915, exclusive of the emergency gold mining assistance. This compares with our estimate of $17,263,091 for the previous year, a decrease of $831,176.
At present the permanent staff of our department numbers 1,929, of whom 1,754 are in Ottawa. It is housed in many buildings widely scattered in this city. This for many years has impeded efficiency and caused difficulties in administration. Plans are under way for the construction of permanent buildings to house the larger part of our staff in the vicinity of our Booth street buildings now occupied by the mines branch. A chemical and radioactivity laboratory is now under construction. A geological survey building and an administration building are planned for early construction. For these buildings, including $135,000 for improvements to the heating plant, $2,852,000 has been placed in this year's estimates of the Department of Public Works.
In the near future we wish to construct a surveys and mapping building to bring together the various surveys and map compilation and reproduction division. The cost of this whole program is expected to be of the order of $12 million to $15 million. Also, for the current year provision is being made through the Department of Public Works for $200,000 for a wharf for our hydrographic ships at Victoria, British Columbia.
This statement, Mr. Chairman, is only an outline of some of the many activities of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
[Mr. Prudham.l

Our relationships with the mining industry are cordial and on a co-operative basis. Our surveys and investigations are undertaken in consultation with provincial authorities under whose jurisdiction the mineral resources are administered. In this way duplication of effort is avoided, and provincial and federal projects are complementary to one another.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the minister for the detailed statement he has given to the committee in connection with the estimates and the administration of his department. Since it is my intention to deal very briefly, of course, with the development of the natural resources in my province of Quebec, I am sure the minister will allow me to continue my remarks in my mother tongue.
(Translation):
Mr. Chairman, I take part in the discussion of the estimates of the Mines and Technical Surveys department in order to show briefly the great development of our natural resources, especially in the province of Quebec.
My province, I daresay, is unquestionably the province of Canada where, during these last few years, progress in that field has been the greatest, not to say the most fantastic. Boundless new areas, which a few years ago were outside civilization, have been opened up. They hold priceless wealth which is being developed for the benefit of the province where it is to be found and which provides Canada and the whole world with a practically inexhaustible source of ores of all kinds, thus contributing to our economic expansion and to Canadian prosperity. The huge mining development that has taken place in the Ungava district is unequalled in the history both of the province of Quebec and of our great country.
Several hundred million tons of iron ore have already been discovered and this ore is being mined at growing pace.
This vast territory, now opened up to civilization and international trade, has, in many ways, brought wealth to the province of Quebec.
Thanks to the excellent credit position which our province enjoys abroad, American capital, now mainly controlled by Canadians, is greatly contributing to our prosperity.
Since these important iron fields were first developed, the province of Quebec has known, and will know, ever-increasing expansion and prosperity.

Thousands of new jobs have been created, which brings a much needed security to many Canadian homes.
Factories of all kinds have been added to others already existing, and it appears that before long, considering the huge projects now under way, a territory heretofore ignored will become the Eden of a large number of Canadians.
Several new cities are going up in hitherto scarcely known areas, and will provide homes, full employment and security to thousands of our fellow citizens, whose contribution to their provinces and to their country will play a prominent part in the useful development of our territory.
New income sources, for the individuals as well as for the governments will contribute to the development, the greatness and the prosperity of Canada. Such an improved and secure income for individuals will relieve the burden weighing already too heavily upon governments, owing to the repeated requests for assistance to those affected by chronic or acute unemployment.
Governments increasing their income through the development of such natural resources, the authorities will then be in a position to divert to the welfare of the people the surpluses accumulated annually.
We can never be too thankful to divine Providence for endowing our province with such untold wealth which allows us to play towards humanity the part, the providential part, assigned to us.
The presence of this wealth in our soil is not a result of mere fate or coincidence; this wealth was placed there to insure the happiness of our people and to allow our people to make it available to others.
Research already initiated must be continued. The developments which we are given to witness at the present time must expand unceasingly for the benefit of our people.
I take this opportunity to pay a warm tribute and express sincere thanks to those who preside over the destinies of the province of Quebec and who are the fortunate ones responsible for this gigantic development of our resources.


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: This is quite a surprise to me.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: That I should be congratulating the government?


Pierre Gauthier: Yes.
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: It would be a greater surprise if it were the hon. member for Portneuf who should be doing it.


Pierre Gauthier: Oh, no! I have done it before.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Their vision, their devotion to those after whose interests they look, the sacrifices they have willingly undergone and the immense contribution they have made so far towards the exploration and development of our mineral resources have given Quebec pride of place in this field, a position which it is proud to occupy.
I mentioned, in particular, what is now happening in northern Quebec, but it should be kept in mind that, in the district of Chibougamau, in the peninsula of Gaspe and in many another area of that province, the development of our natural wealth has advanced as never before.
Canada has the privilege to have huge riches under its soil. And how many more still lie there unknown to us, waiting for the patriotism and the money of a few men to discover and put them at the disposal of our great land.
I therefore urge all Canadians who possess capital resolutely to invest a great part of it so as to create a more beautiful and greater Canada, that may hold its own among the nations of the commonwealth. The department concerned must carry on its surveys so that, instead of remaining unused, our natural resources may promote the happiness and prosperity of this country and contribute also, perhaps, to the raising of the living standards of other countries to which we could extend these benefits.
Mr. Chairman, I will conclude by thanking once more the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys for the brilliant introductory speech he made a moment ago, as well as for the information he was so kind as to communicate to the house with regard to his department.
(Text) :


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, I followed with great interest the minister's remarks concerning the increase in mining production and petroleum production, and the information he gave us about the research being undertaken by the department and the activities of various branches, but I am going to take the opportunity presented by the first item of these estimates to refer to another
5692	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys question which we in this group consider of some importance.
This group is interested in an accurate recording of Canadian history of exploration and geography and the complete protection of Canada's sovereign rights. Now, I have always been interested in geography, and particularly in the history of the exploration of the Canadian Arctic. I must say the tempo of my interest was somewhat increased last year as the result of a conversation with an officer of the Royal Canadian Air Force who had been serving in the Arctic and who was himself very concerned about the maintenance of Canadian sovereignty and the apparent ignorance of certain United States army personnel concerning Canadian rights in the Arctic.
I am going to say a few words this afternoon about what I will term the forgotten expedition. Last year I placed a question on the order paper asking for a definition of the land area that is considered to be within the jurisdiction of Canada north of the mainland of this country and later, at the suggestion of certain people, I withdrew that question. As a result, apparently there was a radio news report and a constituent of mine, Dr. L. E. Borden, who was a member of the first Canadian Arctic expedition, contacted me because this report disturbed him very much indeed as it indicated there was some uncertainty on the part of this government as to our territorial rights in the Arctic and when they were established.
On investigating this situation I found there were good sound grounds for Dr. Borden's concern. In fact, on checking what books I could find and various reports and articles published by scientific societies, I found what I considered an amazing situation. I found first of all in the Canadian Geographic Journal, 1935, volume 10, an article by W. Eggleston entitled "Canada's Northernmost Island." There was no mention whatever therein of the cruise of the Neptune in 1903 and 1904 under Commander A. P. Low, which was the first Canadian Arctic expedition.
Then I found in a book published by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys an article entitled "The Canadian Arctic- 1951". While there is a brief mention of this expedition there is no mention made of Commander Low taking possession of Ellesmere, Southampton and other islands on behalf of the Dominion of Canada. I obtained a copy of the periodical Arctic, which is the journal of the Arctic Institute of North America, volume 8, No. 1, 1955, and I found there an article entitled "Northern Ellesmere Island"


by G. Hattersley Smith, and again no mention is made of Canada's first Arctic expedition although this article was written particularly to list and deal with all the expeditions to the Canadian Arctic. Then I was amazed to find in the Canadian Geographic Journal of June, 1956, an article by Andrew Taylor entitled "Our Polar Islands-The Queen Elizabeths" which again overlooks Canada's first Arctic expedition.
At any rate I was cheered later by information given to me by the minister. Knowing I was interested in this question the minister directed my attention to a book published by his department in December of last year entitled "Geographical Discovery and Exploration in the Queen Elizabeth Islands". In this booklet for the first time-and I have gone through the department's records for many years past-we find an adequate reference to the cruise of the Neptune in 1903 and 1904, and I want to acknowledge the assistance I received from the minister in this respect. I think this article was included for the first time as the result of the minister's interest in this question when the uncertainties were unfolded last year.
On page 111 I find chapter 7 dealing with Canadian expeditions, and there it says:
Early in 1903, the government of Canada decided to send a vessel "to patrol the waters of Hudson bay and those adjacent to the eastern Arctic islands". The expedition was placed under command of a geologist, A. P. Low, and the government chartered the Neptune, the "largest and most powerful ship of the Newfoundland sealing fleet", for this purpose.
Then it goes on to deal quite extensively with certain aspects of this expedition, and I must say I am very pleased to see this expedition noticed for the first time for many years in a government publication. Commander Low commanded the first Canadian expedition to the Arctic on instructions from the minister of marine of that day; I think it was Hon. Mr. Prefontaine. On his return he published a report of over 350 pages which contains a great deal of interesting information on the physical features of the Arctic islands, Eskimos, the geology of the area, the flora and fauna, the possibilities of navigation of Hudson bay for the taking of wheat from Fort Churchill, whaling, an historical summary of preceding expeditions, and his report also contains other interesting matters.
I understand there are only a few copies of this report in existence, including one that I found in the library, which obviously belonged to Captain J. E. Bernier, and one, I understand, in the possession of the department. So far as I can find there are no other records of this expedition, except four or five small leather-bound notebooks in the geological section of

the minister's department, which contain some brief and fragmentary pencilled notes by Commander Low. I want to thank the minister for having had these notebooks looked up and for informing me that they were available and that I might read them. I saw one or two interesting items in them. They are very sketchy and obviously only the remnants of Commander Low's notebooks. There is a note for September 4 to October 3, 1903:
Gears stored under coal. Burned 600 pounds coal today. Average 7-5 knots. Must be careful of our coal now half gone.
I thought that was a remarkable 24-hours steaming at 7-5 knots in those days. I noticed that on June 22, 1904, there were some notes on an illness suffered by Dr. L. E. Borden, who was the surgeon and botanist. Apparently there are no other records, diaries, proclamations, expense accounts or other information available in connection with this expedition. The Minister of Transport has very kindly had the records of the Department of Transport searched; the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources had the records of his department searched, and the dominion archivist has searched the dominion archives. So far as I know there are no records available of this expedition other than the ones I have mentioned.
Before proceeding I wish to quote briefly from Commander Low's report of his expedition, "The Cruise of the Neptune, 1903-04", which is prefaced by some remarks by Hon. Raymond Prefontaine, K.C., minister of marine and fisheries. This is dated at Ottawa, September 8, 1905. It says in part:
I have great pleasure in calling attention to the valuable work of the scientific staff of the expedition. Dr. L. E. Borden, by his skill and attention, kept everybody in a good general state of health, and in addition rendered great assistance in the collection of specimens and data relating to ethnology, botany and zoology.
He goes on to give the order in council giving authority for the expedition, and so on. I would just like to say a word or two about Dr. L. E. Borden, who happens to be a personal friend, and I know he also is a long-time personal friend of our chairman, who I am sure would support any complimentary remarks I have to make about Dr. Borden.


George Prudham: May I ask my hon. friend for his address?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: When I am reading from a letter I shall give it to the minister. I might say that Dr. L. E. Borden graduated from Dalhousie in arts and medicine, had an in-terneship in Victoria hospital, and was surgeon and botanist for the cruise of the Neptune. He came to Nelson in 1908 and
5, 1956	5693
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys commenced the practice of medicine. He held the rank of major in the first and second world wars. He represented the Nelson constituency in the provincial legislature from 1928 to 1933. He has been active in many community organizations, and has had a long-time interest in mining and prospecting organizations. I think at one time he was president of the miners' and prospectors' organization of the Kootenays. He is respected and highly thought of by all who know him and, I must say, particularly by the veterans he served continuously from 1914 until 1947, when he retired from active practice.
Dr. Borden was present when Commander Low took possession of Ellesmere and Southampton islands, and has copies of both proclamations, diaries, samples of Eskimo art and carvings. He is, so far as I know, the only survivor of the expedition. I am going to say at this time that I have tried to get a copy of the proclamations concerning the taking of possession of these islands in the name of the Queen and of Canada. So far as I can find out there is not a copy of those proclamations in any department of government. I think it is quite safe to say on that account that the government has lost the title deeds to the Arctic.
I understand that when Commander Low took possession of these islands-and Dr. Borden has pictures of the crew raising the flag and taking the salute-there was a copy. Commander Low wrote three copies, one for his purpose, one to be delivered to the dominion government, and one now in the possession of Dr. Borden. I am just going to put the proclamations on the record for the information of the minister and those interested in this history. This is the proclamation in connection with taking possession of the island of Southampton:
In the name of our gracious sovereign King Edward VII and on behalf of the government of Canada, I renew and take possession of this island of Southampton for the use and property of the Dominion of Canada. God save the King.
A. P. Low 23/6/04
Then he said:
Having raised the dominion ensign on the cairn and recited the above in the presence of the crew we gave three cheers for the King.
Then I have a copy of one of the three original proclamations which was given to me by Dr. Borden. This proclamation reads:
In the name of King Edward VII, and on behalf of the government of the Dominion of Canada, I have this day taken possession of the island of Ellesmereland and all the smaller islands adjoining it.
And in token of such formal possession have caused the flag of the Dominion of Canada to be
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hoisted upon the land of Ellesmereland: and have deposited a copy of this document, sealed in a metal box, in a cairn erected on the conspicuous headland of Cape Isabella.
A. P. Low,
Officer in charge of dominion expedition to Hudson bay and northward.
On board
Dominion steamship Neptune Smith sound.
11 August, 1904.
I have had some very interesting correspondence with Dr. Borden and I am going to quote briefly from a few of his letters. I might mention at this time that Dr. Borden, for health reasons, has left Nelson and now resides in Victoria. He has been there for about a year. His address is 1315 Monterey avenue, Victoria, B.C. He has this to say in writing about his personal experiences:
From my diary of August 10, 1904:-
He is quoting his own diary.
"This is truly historic ground." The next day we landed and deposited the proclamation as per A. P. Low's report on page 48, paragraph 1 of the "Cruise of the Neptune". I am probably the only living person who witnessed this ceremony of taking formal possession of Ellesmere as I also witnessed on June 23, 1904, Commander Low take formal possession of Southampton island in Hudson bay.
The time of the event of taking possession of Ellesmere which occurred to us of the expedition is of great importance and cannot well be forgotten as the midnight sun was shining in all its glory and we had just had a miraculous escape from death the day before when the Neptune struck a submerged reef.
Then in another letter he mentions some quite interesting facts. He has this to say:
As surgeon for the expedition X was asked by the government to make a report on the health of the Eskimo, especially noting tuberculosis, syphilis and cancer. As far as I know this was the first report ever submitted to the dominion government on the health of the Eskimo. I reported that I had found tuberculosis not prevalent but cases of both chest and bone; that syphilis was present but only, as far as X could find, in the tertiary stage; and as for cancer, after examining Eskimo of all ages in winter encampments and on a voyage of over 10,000 miles in summer at every port of call I never found a case and I may note that a good many years afterward I noticed in a report from a doctor at Aklavik that he had never seen a case. And just for the record may I draw your attention to the fact that Dr. Sweitzer of Lamberene in Africa reports that he has never found a case of cancer in a native.
As botanist I was supposed and did go ashore every time a boat went off to look for specimens. I have, therefore, a very particular cause to remember all landings and events that took place are still very fresh in my memory . . .
Dr. Borden was the first Canadian to botanize the Arctic on behalf of the government of Canada. Commander Low made a great contribution to our knowledge of the
[Mr. Herridge.l

Arctic as commander of this first Canadian expedition, and he also reported quite fully in his book on the possibilities for navigation in Hudson bay. Incidentally, he was also the first man to discover iron ore in Ungava.
I happened to pick that up out of a book I was checking in connection with my investigation. I wondered whether Canada had recognized the work of Commander Low, and I am glad to know that a mountain in the Rockies on the Alberta-British Columbia boundary, located at latitude 51 degrees, 43 minutes, longitude 116 degrees, 48 minutes, was named in his honour in 1920.
I think it is most unfortunate that so little is known about this expedition. For instance,
I find that Pierre Berton in his book, "The Mysterious North", on page 203 states that Captain Joseph Bernier, the bluff Canadian mariner and explorer, in a series of voyages during the early part of the century took possession of the Arctic for Canada. Evidently Mr. Berton, who is very well informed on Canadian history, particularly Arctic history, like the majority of other Canadians has never heard that Commander Low took possession of this area for Canada in 1904.
I made some other investigations. Apparently our university students, our high school students and our public school students have been completely misinformed to date on the history of Canadian exploration in the Arctic because of the failure to recognize this expedition and the lack of information concerning it.
I am going to make two or three suggestions before I sit down. I suggest that a copy of Commander Low's report-I understand there are two copies in existence here- his fragmentary diaries and any other papers that can be located be turned over to Dr. Kaye Lamb, our dominion archivist. I know that when it comes to ferreting out records concerning history Dr. Lamb has the eyes of a fox terrier, the nose of a retriever and the tenacity of a bulldog, and I think it would be most appropriate to give him the job of collecting this information and putting it in a safe place for future generations of Canadians.
My second suggestion is that advantage be taken of the fact that Dr. L. E. Borden, as the only known survivor of the expedition and, as I mentioned before, as the man who was the surgeon and botanist, has diaries, other notes, photographs, Eskimo art and recollections that would be invaluable in completing the records of the history of this first expedition into the Canadian Arctic. I hope the minister will find it convenient to arrange for the appropriate official of his department to visit Dr. Borden and take advantage of

the treasure of knowledge that he is able to supply the department and the archives.


George Prudham: I will certainly do that.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: My third suggestion is that there is a splendid opportunity here for several organizations that have completely overlooked this expedition. To tell you the honest truth, I am amazed that the records of the Arctic institute were not more complete. I suggest that any one of the three following organizations have an opportunity to write a more or less popular edition of the history of our first Canadian expedition so that our university people, our high school children, the children in our public schools, Canadians generally and the members of the United States defence forces will have a proper knowledge of Canadian rights and sovereignty in the Arctic and when these regions were taken by Canada. I suggest that here is an opportunity for the Arctic Institute of Canada, the Canadian Geographical Society or the Canadian Historical Society. Any one of them is quite capable of using its magazine and other facilities to bring to the attention of the Canadian public this page in Canadian history which has been overlooked for many years. In my opinion every effort should be made through some such method as I have suggested to properly inform Canadians on this important question.
I also suggest that it would be a splendid gesture on the part of the Canadian board on geographical names to recognize the work done by Dr. L. E. Borden as surgeon and botanist, the first Canadian to botanize the Arctic, and for all his work in connection with this expedition, by naming some physical feature in Canada after him.
Finally I want to say that the Canadian Arctic belongs to Canada, and at this time it is most appropriate that we do not hesitate to emphasize our sovereign rights in that area and fully inform Canadians of the interesting history of that period.


Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman,
I want to say a few words on this occasion, though I do not intend to take too long. I noted what the minister said when he commenced his remarks about preferring to have the coal problem dealt with when the item comes up. However, it is very possible I will not be here on that occasion; therefore I should like to say something about the coal situation generally in Canada at this time.
I can assure him that if I should happen to be here then I will not repeat what I am about to say now.
First of all, I think the very distressing condition in which the coal industry finds
5, 1956	5695
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys itself hardly needs mention by me. I am not blaming anyone particularly for that because there are a number of factors entering into the problem. Probably the minister is not to blame in any particular instance but I think that the federal government, having in mind the over-all picture, could do a little more than is being done, and I will try to indicate what that is as I go along.
To emphasize the point I raised a moment ago about the alarming and distressing position in which the coal mining industry finds itself today, I should like to refer to the coal board report, page 10. This is the 1955 edition of the annual report, so it is right up to date. Under the heading "Developments in the Coal Situation and Current Outlook" it states:
The production of Canadian coal mines in 1954-55, amounting to 14*7 million tons, showed a decrease of 11 million tons from the total for 1953-54. This loss was borne by the Alberta and British Columbia fields and more than offset gains in those of Saskatchewan and the maritimes.
Then down further on the page we find this:
The full plight of the Canadian coal industry becomes manifest when it is considered that over the past four fiscal years the annual production has fallen by 3-8 million tons or 20-3 per cent, imports by 7-6 million tons or 29-4 per cent, and over-all consumption by 9-1 million tons or 21 1 per cent.
The decline in coal mining has occurred despite progressive and substantial increases in the financial assistance extended to it by the federal government. Subvention payments have risen from $4-6 million in 1951-52 to $11-3 million in 1954-55 and in the latter year exceeded those in 1953-54 by $1-5 million.
The Alberta and British Columbia fields, more especially the former, have suffered most of the aforenoted reduction in Canadian coal output. The present prospects for this segment of the industry are bleak. The bituminous mines, which used to supply about 70 per cent of their output to the railways, chiefly from their underground operations, have suffered further serious losses in this market.
I read that to you, Mr. Chairman, and to members of this committee in order to give the members of this house who represent all parts of Canada the facts regarding the distressing situation in which the coal industry finds itself. The situation is not peculiar to the western Canadian provinces. The same thing is true in the maritimes but to a lesser extent, and probably there is some reason for that. As I said a moment ago, Mr. Chairman, it is true that there is probably some reason for the decline in the coal industry, particularly in western Canada, where we have had the development of oil and gas. Oil has not taken too great a toll of the production of coal, but gas has taken some. But at the moment, particularly at
5696	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the time at which this report was issued by the coal board, gas did not affect materially the production of coal; and by the statement I have read you can see that the production of coal has steadily declined.
To give you a more specific picture with regard to the decline of coal production let me further refer to the dominion coal board's report. At page 28, under the heading "Production", this is stated:
The output of Canadian coal mines during the fiscal year under review showed a reduction of $1,040,000 tons or 6-6 per cent in comparison with the total of 1953-54, and of 3,776,000 or 20-3 per cent as compared to the production of 1951-52. Most of this loss was borne by the Alberta fields.
That makes two occasions within a matter of a few pages in this report on which the board has pointed out that the coal industry in western Canada, and particularly in the province of Alberta, has been receiving very bad setbacks. As I say, that is not because of overuse in other parts of Canada of natural gas. It is true that the gas, when it comes down to Ontario, will affect to some extent the coal consumption in Ontario and in the province of Quebec. But there again it is not going to affect the production of coal in western Canada and in the maritimes as much as some would think, because very little coal from the other parts of Canada is used in those two central provinces anyway. We therefore cannot blame the situation on the use of fuel oil or gas, except of course to the extent that fuel oil particularly is being imported from the United States.
In this report we have the production figures for Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Saskatchewan, Alberta bituminous, Alberta subbituminous, British Columbia and Yukon. Let me give the total figure for 1953-54 which amounted to 15,803,000 tons. For 1954-55 it was 14,770,000 tons. That is the production for Canada. From the same report I want to give you the amount of coal which was imported into Canada from the United States; and may I say in passing that I think this is where our solution can be found. As to imports of bituminous coal, the total for 1954-55 was 15,639,000 tons. For anthracite the total was 2,504,000 tons. Those two figures make a total of 18,143,000 tons. You will notice there is a difference there of 3,373,000 tons of coal; that is, 3,373,000 more tons of coal were shipped into Canada than were produced in Canada.
When you consider that every year, according to the report, the production of coal has been dropping-since 1951-52 particularly- it seems to me that the federal government and the provinces also are going to be obliged to do something to see that this industry is


kept alive. I think every member in this house has on other occasions pointed out that the coal industry is vital to Canada from the standpoint of defence, if for no other reason. We are getting a gas line brought down to Ontario from which the Ontario people are going to derive a great advantage. But I must point out also that a gas line is most vulnerable from the standpoint of attack when the enemy come to invade this country, if they ever do.
We must be cautious that we do not destroy one of the greatest industries in Canada. In fact I do not think the time will ever come when you can completely do away with the coal mining industry and the need for coal. It might be reduced to some extent, but it certainly will never be done away with.
In his speech this afternoon the minister pointed out that a considerable amount of research has been done with regard to the coal-fired turbine. I think it is his hope and the hope of all of us that when that turbine is developed there might be some relief for our declining coal production. We have now spent

I think this is what the minister said; he will correct me if I am wrong

or by the end of the year will have spent something like $600,000-


George Prudham: 


Charles Edward Johnston: or $650,000 in the development of this new gas turbine engine. That is a tremendous amount of money, but that development has been going on for about four or five years. I can well recall that when the members of the house visited the plant at Montreal their hopes were raised that this machine was going to come into use in a year or two years at the most. We have been waiting now for many years longer than that, and there is no immediate prospect of that happening in the near future or of it being of assistance to the coal mining industry. We cannot, therefore, place too great hopes in that direction for immediate relief at least.
Then there are the experiments being conducted by the federal government in close co-operation with the provinces, particularly the province of Alberta, in connection with the development of electricity through the use of steam produced bycoal. That is probably going to assist coal production to some extent, particularly when the coal fields are in close proximity to the place where electricity is to be developed and when that electricity can be used for the development of industry. However, that, too, is a long way off, and we cannot put our immediate hopes in that direction if we wish to find a permanent solution for this declining coal industry.

I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that in this country we do not hesitate to go to great lengths to assist other lagging industry. My mind goes to the gold mining industry. There is never any objection in this house, or very little, particularly from the members from central Canada, when it comes to assisting the gold mining industry. I just want to put on the record something about the subsidies which have been paid to that industry. I am not overlooking the fact, either, that there have been subsidies paid to the coal industry as well, and I have already so indicated. It should be recalled that there are only about 23,000 people, I think it is, employed in the gold mining industry, and that is a very small number of people compared to the thousands and thousands who are employed in the coal industry. Our coal industry, however, is gradually going down and unemployment is resulting in Alberta from that fact. A year ago the provincial government allotted over $100,000 to reallocate and rehabilitate the miners who had been thrown out of employment because our coal industry was declining so rapidly.
But the gold industry is not declining quite so quickly. In 1948 we paid $10,546,000 in gold mining assistance; in 1949, $12,569,000; 1950,	$9,015,000;	1951,	$10,750,000;	1952,
$10,852,000; 1953, $14,625,000; 1954, $14 million; 1955, $10 million. It is estimated that in 1956 we will pay $11 million. This will make a total of $103,357,000 for that nine-year period. The coal industry, as I indicated, in 1951-52 received $4-6 million and in 1954-55, $11-3 million. When you compare the two you find that the gold mining industry, which employs a comparatively few people compared with the coal industry, has been assisted to a far greater extent than the coal industry.


George Prudham: I am sure my hon. friend has been misinformed. I think the numbers employed in the two industries are approximately equal.


Charles Edward Johnston: I would ask the minister to put the exact figures on record, if he would, because my information is that there are only about 23,000 miners employed in the gold mining industry. That does not include their families, but I think there would be many times more than that employed in the coal industry. Of course I would agree with the minister that the number employed in the coal industry has been reduced tremendously in the last year because of reduced production and the closing of mines. As I indicated a moment ago, Alberta had to devote $100,000 to the rehabilitation of miners in that province and in order that they may move to other places. I would say that the
5, 1956	5697
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys number employed in the coal industry has reduced very rapidly from 1951 or 1948. It has been decreasing so rapidly we should be alarmed in this house lest the industry disappear entirely. Hon. members are aware of the fact that you just cannot train a miner overnight. If we were called upon to increase our coal production in case of emergency, we just could not do it because we would not have the qualified miners at hand to go back into those mines. We should, therefore, look very carefully at that aspect of it.
I suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, as I have suggested before and as others have suggested, particularly the hon. member for Cape Breton South, that we should have a national fuel policy. You will recall that the federal government, particularly the Prime Minister, was not hesitant about declaring that we should have a national gas policy for Canada when there was some thought that gas from Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba might be shipped south to the United States and deprive Ontario and Quebec of that cheap fuel for the development of the industries ir those two central provinces. The government then came out most hastily and said no, sir; we shall have a national gas policy in Canada and an all-Canadian pipe line.
Why can we not show some of that same concern and anxiety for the coal industry and establish a national fuel policy for Canada? As indicated a few moments ago, we are importing from the United States 3,373,000 tons of coal more than we produce in all Canada. I think that is where our solution lies. Some may say that I am trying to cut off imports from the United States, and if you are going to do it in one thing you should do it in another. Make no mistake about it; the manufacturing industries which are established in the central provinces do that very thing. They have great protection from the tariffs of this country which allow only limited amounts of the goods they are manufacturing to come in from the United States.
I think it would not be unfair at all for the Canadian government to say, we shall reduce the imports of coal from the United States at least to the point where there is some semblance of equality between the amount shipped in from the United States and the amount we produce in this country. I am going to say, as I said last year, that if we would only reduce imports from the United States by one million tons, which would not affect imports from the United States to any great extent, we would be able to give this dying Canadian coal industry a greatly needed shot in the arm. If we were to curtail imports from the United States by two million

Supply

Mines and Technical Surveys tons it would do a lot toward re-establishing our industry, regardless of the fact that gas is going to be used in Ontario and Quebec. If we would curtail the importation of coal from the United States to the extent of four million tons, I am sure that our industry would be put back on its feet again.
Then what would be the over-all situation? I do not think it would be unfair at all. I do not think anyone could accuse me of being against the United States coal or fuel oil industry in endeavouring to get a market in Canada for some of our own production. I say, what would be the over-all picture then? Instead of a production of 14,770,000 tons in Canada we would have 18,770,000 tons. Instead of 18,183,000 tons coming in from the United States we would have 14,143,000 tons.
I am going to say that while we would be producing in Canada about 3} million or 4 million tons more than we would be importing, it would be a healthy condition for this country. We should not be importing more coal from the United States than we produce in Canada when we have practically 7 per cent of the world's known supply of coal in this country, and particularly when our own coal mines are being closed down and our miners thrown out of work all across the country. That is true of the maritimes and western Canada as well. If that were done it would give our mines a needed shot in the arm, if I may use that expression.
I say to the minister I recognize immediately that the government has given the coal industry quite a lot of money in the way of subventions, but not nearly as much as the gold mining industry has been receiving. I do not believe the minister would be able to raise subventions sufficiently high to offset the tremendous amount of coal that is coming in from the United States. I think a limit has to be put on the importation of coal into this country. If that were done the subvention on coal would not have to be raised too much.


George Prudham: How would you do it; how would you limit it?


Charles Edward Johnston: It would be very easy to put a limit on the maximum amount of coal that could be shipped into this country. I do not see any difficulty at all. The United States puts a limit on the amount of agricultural products that can be shipped from Canada into the United States. Why can we not put a limit on the amount of coal shipped into Canada from the United States?


Mr. Enfield:: To what extent will the steel mills in Canada accept coal from Alberta, from the point of view of quantity?


Charles Edward Johnston: There is a remark on that in the coal board's report, if I could just lay my hands on it. They speak about that. On page 11 I find the following:
The main hope for new outlets for western coal lies in the field of increased thermal power generation.
No, that is not it. They mention it, but I just cannot lay my hands on it. They mention the fact that one of the hopes for an increased production of western coal lies in the amount supplied to industrial plants in Ontario. I think the importation of gas into Ontario and Quebec from Alberta will have some effect on that. I say to the minister that although we are giving a generous amount in subventions, I do not think that is going to be the solution of our coal problem. It does seem to me that we have to do something about the importation of this coal into Canada, at least to the amount necessary to keep our mines going and to give our employees a decent standard of living. If we did that it would be the solution of our coal problem.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just spoken mentioned that he possibly will not be here when the coal item comes up. I have had the figures of the number of employees in the gold mining industry supplied to me. In 1954, 18,479 people were employed in the gold mining industry and in 1953, the year for which the figures are supplied here, 18,291 were employed in the coal industry.


Charles Edward Johnston: What about 1948 and 1949? I referred to the production of coal in those years.


George Prudham: I have not those figures.


Charles Edward Johnston: I think it would be fair to say that during the last 10 years many more coal miners than gold miners were employed. Would it be a fair statement to say that at least twice as many were employed?


Mr. Dumas:: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to take any more of the time of this committee than is necessary, but I hope I will be permitted to make a few comments concerning the activities of the department and its personnel. There are also one or two things which I would like to bring to the attention of the minister, the officers of his department and hon. members who, I am sure, are all interested in this very important sector of the government.
At the outset I wish to congratulate the minister on the high efficiency with which he directs the affairs of his ministry. I also

wish to congratulate each and every one in the department on the excellent work done during the past year. More particularly I want to pay a tribute to the engineers, the surveyors, the geologists and other experts of the department and their helpers whose work in the field or at headquarters has proven to be so valuable to the orderly development of our mineral and other natural resources.
They have been working in co-operation with other provincial or private scientific research parties and with the prospectors and mine developers, and with them they share much of the credit for this extraordinary development which has taken place in northern Canada during the last 15 or 20 years. Without the work of all, this tremendous sweep of waste land to the north could not have become productive regions dotted with wealth-producing communities.
I am also pleased to see that the minister has again authorized the publication of a pamphlet summarizing the activities of his department for the year 1955. Everyone who is acquainted with this pamphlet agrees that it is an excellent publication and that it should be continued.
I wish to put on record short extracts from some of the letters I have received commenting on this booklet. The committee will be pleased to hear what the industry thinks of this department. The first letter is from F. J. O'Connell, general manager of Sigma Mines (Quebec) Limited. I quote:
We were very pleased to receive Summary of Activities, 1954 for the department of mines. We have reviewed this thoroughly, find it most informative and are amazed at the number of activities carried on under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
The next letter is from the manager of Elder Mines Limited, and reads as follows:
I particularly liked the Summary of Activities of 1954, published by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I think they did a very thorough job and are to be congratulated in turning out this publication.
Another letter comes from the manager of Stadacona Mines Limited, and reads as follows:
The Summary of Activities, 1954, acquaints the reader with the scope of the department of mines and the various services performed. It is gratifying to note that the geological survey is expanding so rapidly and that they are employing more aircraft in their operations.
The last one I wish to put on record is from the manager of the Lamaque Mining Company Limited, and it reads as follows:
The Summary of Activities of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys for 1954 is a very well prepared booklet and it was interesting to note the modern methods which this department is now using not only to increase the speed
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys at which geological studied areas are being mapped but it also shows the very desirable trend in increasing efficiency of the work of this department. We note that the "New Quebec-Labrador, Quebec" areas were covered by a total of ten field parties and that only the province of British Columbia exceeded this number of field parties. This suggests that the department realize the importance of the possible mineral deposits in our province.
This booklet, Mr. Chairman, is published in English and in French. It is well presented, and it certainly makes it easier for whoever wishes to acquaint himself with the activities of the department or intends to discuss its estimates. What I like most about this pamphlet is that it gives concise information on the main accomplishments in every one of the five branches into which the department is divided.
For instance, if we look at the map on page 2 we are immediately aware of the number and diversity of the locations across the country which were visited by hydrographic, topographical and geodetic field survey parties during the course of last season's operations. Also on pages 22 and 23, at a glance we are informed of the different locations visited by the field parties of the geological survey branch during the summer of 1955. The whole pamphlet is very informative, and again I express the hope that its publication will be continued.
Despite the long association of mining with Canada, it was only about 55 years ago that it actually became a large industry in this country. During those 55 years, the number and importance of the mines have increased to the point where, for 1955, the value of their output has been more than $1,500 million. Canada has become one of the world's greatest producers of minerals. There is every reason to believe that in this country of ours during the next ten years we shall see an even greater expansion in our mining industry than we enjoyed during the past decade, and we know that was the most active decade we ever had.
There are two more items concerning which I would like to say a few words before closing these remarks. The first item has to do with radioactivity surveys; the other has to do with gold. Concerning the radioactivity surveys I wish to learn from the minister if we have made any progress. In the summary of activities for 1950 and 1951 we were informed as follows, and I quote from page 21 of the 1950 report:
In co-operation with the national research council and with the crown-owned Eldorado Mining and Refining (1944) Limited, work was commenced on the development of an airborne radioactive detector that may be used to locate deposits of radioactive substances from an aircraft. It may thus soon be possible to make both

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys magnetic and radioactivity surveys at the same time. Considerable further research work is needed, however, before any claims for effective application are justified.
The following year, as reported at page 22 of the 1951 report, it was stated:
An airborne detector of radioactivity was carried in the same plane as the magnetometer, and radioactivity surveys were made at the same time as the magnetic. So far, however, this instrument has not been shown to be useful as a geological tool. When the anomalies noted are better understood the instrument may prove to be valuable for prospecting for uranium deposits.
Can the minister tell the committee if the geophysics section of his department has made any progress as far as this method of survey is concerned? Can we expect that the geological survey branch will be able to issue maps containing this kind of information?
The last item with which I wish to deal is gold. The mines branch of the department is continually engaged in activities concerned with all phases of the mining and metal industries. In every one of the annual reports we read that the different divisions of this branch are carrying on research work of all kinds. In the case of the industrial minerals the branch is always directing much of its efforts to research relating to the development, utilization and conservation of our mineral resources. In a pamphlet published during the month of March 1956 by the Canadian metal mining association I note the following:
Research Into Extended Commercial Uses of Gold.
Following a resolution sent to this association by the Quebec metal mining association, the executive committee of the board have under consideration a proposal that the possibility of research into more extensive commercial uses of gold be examined.
This question has been raised previously, and for the guidance of our board we are anxious to obtain as much information as possible concerning previous investigations and their results.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Order.


Armand Dumas: Mr. Chairman, I require only two or three minutes in order to conclude.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: If the committee consents the hon. member may continue.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Armand Dumas: The idea I would like to leave with the experts in the mines branch is this. There must be ways of using gold for industrial purposes other than for tooth fillings and jewellery. This idea is not new, but I wish to bring it to light again and maybe something will come out of it. In the past the mines branch has done excellently in helping the gold mines with their problems; maybe this time it can find some new outlets for the metal.
In closing my remarks I wish to say that we recognize that the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is doing immensely well in its endeavour to keep abreast of the varied requirements of the industry for its services. However, I am sure that in the near future the different branches of the department will need more personnel, and it is not an exaggeration to foresee the necessity of a much greater number of field parties for summer operations. All this will necessitate an increased budget, and I hope it will be granted so we will never be lagging behind in the development of our natural resources.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Order. It is six o'clock. I have been given to understand that by arrangement it is desired to report progress for the purpose of reverting to motions. Is it agreed that I report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, if I may have permission to revert to motions I would move:
That on Monday, July 16, 1956, and on every sitting day thereafter until the end of this session, the house shall meet at eleven o'clock, a.m., and that the provisions of standing order 2 be suspended in relation thereto.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
Administration services-
209. Departmental administration, $510,190.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Mr. Michener:: Although the minister has made a comprehensive statement, there are one or two suggestions and questions I should like to address to him. We have had a reasonably full discussion of the problems of the gold mining industry and they have been disposed of for this session, and I shall not say any more on that score. There are one or two aspects of mining taxation to which


I think the minister might give some thought with a view to a conference with the Minister of Finance in the general interests of the best use of taxation to encourage mining.
The immense growth in the value of Canada's metal mine production, from $42 million in 1907 to $763 million in 1954, has not come about simply because there was ore available. We have had provisions in our fiscal arrangements for realistic depletion allowances, nontaxation of capital gains-though that seems to have got into an area of uncertainty- freedom from income tax for the first three years of a new mine's production, and important permissible deductions from taxable income of expenditure made for mining exploration and development.
There are aspects of these last two which I should like to mention. The three-year tax-free period to permit a mine to recover some of the capital costs of constructing its mill and installing its mining plant, under the present legislation, is a continuous period.
I am not sure whether such instances have arisen, but one has come to my attention which might well arise, where through no fault of the management of the mine the three-year period has begun to run and production has been interrupted. It might be interrupted for a number of causes beyond the control of the operators-acts of God and the King's enemies, as they are usually described-such as unusual storms or prolonged strikes. A variety of things could interrupt the intended benefits of the three-year period for a very considerable time, to the detriment of the mine, and the mine would lose the opportunity to recover the capital costs which this tax-free period was intended to permit it to recover.
I suggest to the minister that he consider with the Minister of Finance the desirability of giving the Department of National Revenue authority to permit the suspension of the running of the period in those cases so the benefit is not lost. That is not an important or far-reaching matter, but it seems to me that it would be a desirable precaution against that contingency. In the Income Tax Act, which this house has under consideration, there is a provision, and I shall use the words, if I may, of the Ontario mining association in describing this problem-
Section 21, subsection 4 of the bill . . .
That is Bill No. 418.
. . . sets up a new subsection (8a) which provides that where an oil or mining corporation acquires the property of an oil corporation, it may deduct the undistributed exploration expense incurred by the predecessor corporation. This simply permits the said oil or mining corporation to adopt the same practice with respect to deferred items of
5, 1956	5701
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
this kind in the predecessor company as it follows with respect to its own current development expenses.
The anomaly existing is that while the mining company is empowered to do this with respect to a predecessor oil company which it may acquire, it is not authorized to take similar action in the event that it acquires a predecessor mining company.


Walter Edward Harris: I wonder whether we could divert the discussion to myself. I think it is well known to my hon. friend, and if it is not I say it now, that we intend to amend the act to provide for what he is now saying.


Daniel Roland Michener: I am glad to have that information.


Walter Edward Harris: I should say that I gave a copy of the amendment to a representative of his party the other day.


Daniel Roland Michener: I am glad to hear that mining companies will be assimilated in all respects to oil companies by that amendment.
The geological survey is, of course, a great implement of assistance to the mining industry. In our federal system we have both the federal department of mines and the provincial departments of mines carrying on surveys. I should be glad if the minister would indicate how far there is liaison and co-operation between the federal mines department and the provincial departments, to bring about an integration of the work of the two levels of government. I expect that it is done, but I would be interested to know how close that co-operation is.
Another question which interests me is one that may perhaps be difficult to answer, but I am concerned to know how far we have got with these great surveys. They have been going on for a number of years. Each year parties go into the field, come back and make their reports, and gradually the possible mineral areas are being covered. Could the minister give us an indication of the proportion of the favourable area of Canada that has not yet been the subject of geological survey of the kind that he regards as satisfactory for the areas needing survey?
A further question relates to the use of the information which results from these surveys. These reports and maps and the findings of the geological parties which go out through Canada are of great value. They give direction and lead to prospectors, mining companies and others interested in the development of our mineral resources. It is, of course, of the utmost importance that the information should be made available generally to all at the same time so there is no possibility of advance information or
5702	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys favouritism in the publication of this information. I should like the minister, if he would, to outline to the committee the method that is followed to assure that this valuable information resulting from public surveys is made available to all at the same time.
Having posed those questions, I shall break off here to give the minister an opportunity to deal with them.


Mr. Gillis:: I know it has been customary for the minister to keep his discussion of the coal industry until we have reached that item, but now that he has permitted some discussion on this item I think it is only logical that we should follow through with it. I understand that the chairman of the coal board is away attending a conference at the present time, and it is rather uncertain when he will get back. As far as I am concerned, I am particularly interested in the problem of coal, and under the present circumstances I think it requires discussion at this time.
I too should like to say that since the present minister has taken over the department there has been more order and sanity in its administration. I remember when it was just an orphan, and any discussions we had in the house were rather uncertain and very ambiguous. The minister has done a good job in preparing his reports. At least it is quite clear what the department is doing section by section, and while it is not going ahead as fast in some respects as we would like, nevertheless it is moving forward and not backward.
I listened to the hon. member for Bow River. The subject of coal is not a new one to him or me, because we have been discussing it for a long time in the house. I think his observations with respect to the importation of United States coal are timely, and that is perhaps the crux of our whole problem. But I should like to point out that there should not be any difficulty as far as the government is concerned in carrying out what he suggested, namely the placing of an embargo on a certain amount of United States coal coming into this country and zoning markets so there would be markets for coal produced in Canada. Such action should be taken because of the very heavy imports from the United States.
The largest single import into this country measured in terms of dollars is coal. It is the largest single item in our whole import list. As the hon. member for Bow River said, we import 4,700,000 tons more than we produce. Why I say it should not be difficult for the government to arrange what he suggested is that more than half of that 4,700,000


tons is imported by the Canadian National Railways, a government-owned organization. It should not be difficult to come to some understanding with Canadian National Railways on the marketing of Canadian coal at least between Ontario and the maritimes.
I have taken the matter up a good many times with the president of the C.N.R. in the committee on railways and shipping, and of course his answer always is that Canadian coal must be made competitive. They accept no social responsibility at all for communities across the country, and neither do the companies that mine the coal. They accept no social responsibility for the communities where they are exploiting the raw material. Until such time as governments take action to bring to their attention the fact that they have some social responsibility to the communities they are exploiting, the situation will go on as it is, as long as it is measured in terms of dollars and cents and figures on the right side of the ledger.
May I say here that I do not hold the federal government entirely responsible, because they have very little control over the coal mining industry of this country. In the first place, the provincial governments grant the leases. They are the custodians of the raw materials of the provinces, and they hold them in trust for the people of the provinces. When they farm them out to large companies and give them leases in perpetuity the first responsibility rests with the provincial governments and the companies that hold the leases. The federal government's only prerogative is the granting of subventions, subsidies and drawbacks, and the coal board will also assist in marketing in so far as they have the power to do so. Under the British North America Act the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and the dominion coal board are going as far as they are permitted to go, unless the provinces change their minds and there is a change of heart on the part of the operating companies. Until we get legislation placing some power in the hands of the federal government the thing will go along as it is.
The hon. member for Bow River also spoke about the coal-burning gas turbine engine being experimented with at McGill. He stated that the members who went down to see the project some four or five years ago were very enthusiastic about it. I want to remind him that I was one of the members who visited the project at that time and, as the minister knows, I was not enthusiastic about it. It was being held up at that time as the great solution so far as the future of the coal mining industry was concerned,

and the newspapers were full of it. But after I visited there my conclusion was that if it ever worked it was at least ten years away from any commercial value. That is five years ago and it is still in the experimental stage.
The assumption is that the turbine engine is interchangeable with the present diesel engines recently adopted by the Canadian National Railways. That is not true, because in order to instal the turbine engine in a locomotive a special locomotive will have to be built for it, and having in mind the huge investment in diesels made by the C.N.R. in the last few years they are not going to write off that investment in the foreseeable future.
I think it is well to dispel these illusions that are thrown out from time to time to keep people guessing and wondering for a year or two while at the same time there is a rapid decline in the industry. I do not think it does any good, and I think the department is fully aware of that fact.
In that regard I should like to refer to page 90 of the 1955 departmental report. What they say is not very encouraging, "but at the same time they are not trying to fool anybody. The report has this to say:
This equipment, which is installed at the gas dynamics laboratory of McGill University at Ste. Anne de Bellevue, was operated for about 300 hours during the year. Some difficulties were experienced with slag formation and corrosion of the tubes in the hot heat exchangers. The causes of these troubles and methods for their prevention are being investigated.
That is just about where it was five years ago. The phrase used there indicating that it was operated for about 300 hours might give the impression that it was installed as an engine and had operated for that number of hours. Actually it is just sitting there on a frame and the engine has been operated. The difficulty is and has been to find a cooling system that will take away the heat from the gas and not burn off the blades of the engine. That has been the difficulty and I think it still is the difficulty. If the engine is ever perfected I think it might be a good marine engine or a good engine for the generation of thermal power in small electric plants, but I cannot see Canadian National Railways writing off their huge investment in diesels within the foreseeable future and building new locomotives to instal that type of engine.
The reason I am saying this is that for too long there has been too much of this kind of thing thrown out to people, and it is merely an illusion and raises false hopes. I believe we should be frank and realistic at this time with the people in an industry such as the
67509-362J
5, 1956	syoy
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys coal mining industry. As the minister knows, at this time one has to be careful in discussing coal, particularly in my end of the country. As the minister also knows, the mine workers have been conducting negotiations with the operating company for several months. They had a conciliation board, and the conciliation board decided that no wage increases or changes in conditions were warranted at this time because of the financial position of the coal company. A vote was taken on that proposal and the miners rejected it by about three to one. Now they are going to hold a convention for the purpose of determining where they go from there.
I do not want to get involved in any of the internal problems, but I would say this. The miners have worked hard and have co-operated fully. They have subsidized to a large extent that coal operation in Nova Scotia. They have not had any adjustment in wages or conditions since 1952. At the same time alongside of them, within 13 miles, is the steel plant owned by the same corporation they work for; and in that steel plant there has been a continuous adjustment upward in wages, working conditions, fringe benefits and additional holidays. To those 7,000 or 8,000 men who always led in the wage field in that province it is a rather tough proposition to see every other industry stepping up ahead of them while they continue to accept the same conditions and wages that prevailed back in 1952.
What the outcome of their negotiations is-going to be one cannot say at this time. But there is something the minister's department can do in co-operation with the Department of Transport. It is rather difficult to pinpoint any particular problem, especially an economic one, as that of any one department because they spill over from one into the other. The recent 7 per cent interim increase in freight rates which has just been authorized by the board of transport commissioners has added a problem to those of the department of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, in that it adds 12 cents a ton to the cost of the movement of coal from Nova Scotia to the points at which it is marketed. Some is marketed in Ontario but it is mostly marketed in Quebec. That increase of 12 cents a ton together with the other 7 per cent or 7J- per cent increase when it goes into operation some time this fall will bring the increase up to about 24 cents a ton. That adds to the burden.
In the past, when an increase in freight rates was made, it was the practice of the coal board to revise the subvention schedule so as to absorb the additional freight-rate cost and maintain the same balance in the freight
5704	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys rates for the movement of coal. A few days ago I asked the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys whether it was the intention to follow the practice of the past and absorb into the subvention this 12 cents a ton additional freight rate for the movement of Nova Scotia coal. The minister's answer at that time was, of course, that no consideration had been given to that matter at that time. Before we conclude consideration of his estimates I hope the minister will tell us whether the matter has been further considered, and whether the practice of the past is to be carried out.
As I said a moment ago, if one follows the press on this question of the future of coal and the economic feasibility of natural gas and other fuels, one is left in a rather confused state of mind. When you pick up one press clipping you find that it says, "Golden year for coal is seen". This is from the United States, where they are stepping up production and they figure there is a bright future for coal. Then you pick up an editorial and read, "Coal comes back", and so on. That sounds rather nice except to the coal miners, who cannot see it coming back as far *as their wages and conditions are concerned.
Then recently the president of the coal company in his annual report to the board of directors-they held the meeting in Nova Scotia this time, for the first time in the history of the corporation-stated as follows:
. . . the impact upon the coal mining industry in Nova Scotia of the St. Lawrence seaway and the trans-Canada pipe line is "somewhat difficult to appraise and foresee". He added, however, that "neither one of these projects appeared to offer other than somewhat alarming possibilities of increased competition in our upper Canadian markets".
And so on. Then he offers as a solution mechanization, lower costs and greater production. I have heard that story a good many times during my lifetime; sweat it out of the hides of the workers; take it from the consumer; we take no responsibility except you get down and dig. In another editorial-and this is from the old country-they finish up by saying this:
Thus oil which now accounts for about 38 per cent of the free world's energy supplies, will soon displace coal from the dominant position it has hitherto held.
We have one press statement against the other. One expert says coal is on the way out. The other fellow says there is a golden future for it. The president of the big operating coal company says sweat it out of their hides and get the figures on the right side of the balance sheet. As I said before, until we get a realization of responsibility on the part of those who are fortunate in having huge leases granted by provincial governments
IMr. GiUis.l

that prevent anyone else from operating-and provincial governments grant charters to enable them to amalgamate five or six companies in one; squeeze the small shareholders out; establish remote control at Mount Royal; draw big salaries and pay taxes in Quebec; siphon the wealth off from that part of the country-until we bring these people to the realization that they have some social responsibility in the communities where they work on the natural resources, we are going to continue this thing of ghost towns everywhere we are working in a wasting industry such as mining; whether it is coal, gold or metal of any kind, it is a wasting resource.
I was encouraged by this press report recently from the Halifax Chronicle-Herald.
I think it is the first realistic step that has been taken for a long time. It is headed "To make special study of coal industry in N.S." and it reads in part as follows:
The Gordon royal commission on Canada's economic prospects will make a "special study'' of the Nova Scotia coal industry, the Halifax Chronicle-Herald, was informed Tuesday by a top official of district 26, united mine workers of America.
A union statement said the Gordon commission has ordered that "a special study be conducted into all aspects of the Nova Scotia coal industry".
The Montreal firm of Urwick, Currie Ltd. "has been engaged by the commission to further investigate the industry and report to the Gordon commission".
This is encouraging. The only thing I have to say on that point is this, Mr. Chairman. If that examination is made, I hope the people who make it are competent, are free from pressure and will call the shots across the board as they see them. I hope they will not do as previous commissions have done. I hope they will not just compile a rehash of briefs that I read 30 years ago and call it a report and an examination of that industry at this time.
Mr. Forsyth indicated he was fearful of what the St. Lawrence seaway and natural gas were going to do to the coal industry, when and if that pipe line reaches Quebec city. Six years ago I was a member of the committee that made the first examination of the application of Trans-Canada Pipe Lines to build that famous line. At that time all those who appeared before the committee were from the United States, the engineers and the people who made the surveys. The Lehman banking people from New York were going to finance it, and they appeared before that committee.
I asked these witnesses what they calculated natural gas in Montreal and Quebec would do to the coal industry of Nova Scotia, which was the main economic base of that province. Well, they said they did not know.

I said, was any survey made east of Montreal? No, no survey was made. Were there any representations from the operating coal companies? There were no representations from anyone. This was just the forgotten area. They wrote Canada off at Quebec city.
As the minister knows, they were good enough to hear the only witness we could get with any information on the subject, the chairman of the dominion coal board. He came and gave evidence. He admitted that gas and oil had pretty well cleaned up the coal industry of Alberta, but that province was fortunate in that these other industries replaced the coal industry. We do not have that. What is going to happen when gas reaches Quebec and Montreal? We do not know. It is a hypothetical question.
This was six years ago and the line has not been completed yet, so we have had a lease on life. I talked with one of these witnesses afterwards, and I asked him by how much they could undersell coal. He said they could take the market from coal in any industry except the basic steel industry. He said they could take it from coal in the domestic field, that they could undersell coal by at least $1.50 per ton, measuring it in B.T.U.'s. He said, "If we did not figure we would get that market in Montreal and Quebec we would not be going down there." That is logical; they require that market.
I have always questioned in my mind the economic wisdom of taking gas from Alberta to Quebec and Montreal. I do not think that is going to be cheap fuel for that area. I do not think it is a good development, because you have approximately half of Canada's total productive capacity concentrated in that area and you are harnessing industry and domestic heating to a long pipe line going straight across the country, which would be extremely vulnerable. If you changed over your equipment it would take a long time to change back if something happened to that pipe line. Then there is the question of supply. While geologists and oil men may make guesses as to how long the oil is going to last, I think you can be more certain about solid fuels. I am not so sure you can be certain about either oil or gas.
I have a brief in my hand prepared by the solid fuels research institute. These people should know something about the subject. Of course, they have a motive in trying to retain solid fuels, but at the same time it is a rather responsible body. On page 1 of the brief they say:
A study of newspaper clippings on many American centres will show a record of frequent failure of supply, of low pressures, forced cut-offs
5, 1956	5705
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys and rising prices. For many communities depending on natural gas, these have been disturbing factors.
This brief points up this question in quite a realistic way. They go on and say, on page 2:
A stable coal industry is recognized as a necessity. The economic flow of solid fuel for Ontario and western Quebec region is from an area within a radius of 500 miles.
They are talking about United States coal.
Many questions have been raised as to the economic soundness of a 2,000 mile pipe line.
That has always stuck in my mind, too. I would question the wisdom, in a time of rumours of war, threats of war and the possibility of the hydrogen bomb, of harnessing the industrial section of Quebec to a pipe line that is over 2,000 miles long and is certainly vulnerable to sabotage. As I said before, if you change your heating facilities and something happens to that line, then you are in quite a spot.
Personally I do not think the operating coal companies in Nova Scotia particularly, are pulling their share of the load. Right in my own area they closed down three fairly large mines since the mechanization program went into effect. So far the results of the mechanization program have confirmed all the doubts I had as to its value in stepping up production and cheapening costs in these old submarine mines. It has not been very successful to date, and it has had a fairly good test period. Whether or not the companies are trying to find markets for coal or whether they are producing coal to fill the markets, I am rather doubtful. Just a few days ago I received a telegram from Toronto which reads:
We may need 50 tons per day of pulverized coal for a project at Bancroft, Ontario. Would like to use Cape Breton coal. Where do I inquire for established prices f.o.b. destination. Please wire or phone collect.
I telephoned this man and he told me that the 50 tons would perhaps be stepped up, and it would be a continuing order. Well, 50 tons a day is a fairly substantial order, but he could not find anyone in the province of Ontario through whom he could place an order or get quotations. They are certainly not trying to sell coal in Ontario. This man told me that the reason he wanted coal was that he had been using oil and had found it expensive. He wanted to get out of it.
When you talk about coal being competitive with oil, that is a pretty good example. Here is a man who is using oil, and he wants to get out of it and go back to pulverized coal. If these people are trying to sell coal why is there not an agent in that area? At least if you are trying to sell neckties or shoes or aluminum ware, there is an agent going
5706	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys around offering it to you. There is a possibility that there is that kind of business running around Ontario if they wished to go after it.
Perhaps these companies are too busy marketing United States coal. Dominion Coal has a wholly-owned subsidiary in Montreal, the Dominion Import Company, and perhaps they are too busy doing that. That is something I hope the Gordon commission will go into quite thoroughly.
I think the federal government in so far as they can under the circumstances, have done a reasonable job in assisting the industry by way of subventions, subsidies, drawbacks and rebates under the Maritime Freight Rates Act. If you look at the assistance these people have received and then look at their balance sheets you will find they would not be in business at all if it were not for the help they get from the federal government. But they take this position. We want your help but we are free enterprisers; you have nothing to say about where we spend your money or how we invest it or whether we market the coal or whether we do not market the coal; that is our business and it is none of your business. According to the figures I have of the assistance they get from the balance sheets they put out, if public support were withdrawn from them they would be insolvent.
I have a quarrel with them on another score. At a convention in Toronto the Prime Minister said that when the maritimes took the initiative and began to make plans to do things for themselves the federal government would help. Well, since that time they have been doing something. The Atlantic economic council is doing an excellent job probing the possibilities of intermarketing among the four maritime provinces, what they can produce here and what they can market there. Some little industries have been established; not big ones, but it is something. They are doing something.
The four premiers of the Atlantic provinces are meeting in Fredericton to ascertain what can be done further. Well, what is the answer? What can be done to bolster a waning coal industry? The answer is subsidiary industries. A few days ago the president of Dosco made the statement that they were establishing two new fabricating plants this year. I was very sorry to learn they were not going to be established in Nova Scotia; they were going to be established in Quebec. That man was a member of the Atlantic economic council. That is the kind of industry that is required in the maritimes to bolster the economy if coal is in the shaky position that is indicated at
IMr. Gillis.]

this time, and if those people are interested in those communities where they are working on the raw materials, because those fabricating plants in Quebec are going to be supplied with the raw material from Sydney, from the basic steel plant where they have the iron ore, the coal, the limestone and all the ingredients that will go into the steel that will be fabricated there. It will all come from that area. Why could not at least one of those plants be established there if those people had any social responsibility, because that is the base of their whole empire? The raw materials will be taken from that area.
Of course when they turn out that raw steel they will get a subvention-


William Alfred Robinson: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I am obliged to inform him that his time has expired.


Clarence Gillis: You just spoiled a great speech.


Ernest George Hansell: responsibility without first securing complete public assurance in advance that their welfare is assured.
Those two paragraphs from the minister's letter tell a great deal and are worth pondering. I believe it would pay the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys to work in cooperation with the Minister of Labour in reviewing the situation. If they wished they could set up a committee; it could even be a parliamentary committee, which might be a good idea. It also might be an interdepartmental committee, with members of a miners' union and members of the coal mining industry, if they wish. Some body should be set up to investigate whether or not it is possible to rehabilitate the coal mining industry, with special emphasis on the rehabilitation of the coal miner who is in a very bad way because after all, as the hon. member for Bow River said, you cannot train a coal miner overnight. You cannot go out on the street and say to an individual, "I will give you a job digging coal". These are specially trained men; mining is a life work. These men go in the mines when they are young and they stay there and put their whole life into their work. If at middle age or later they find themselves unemployed by reason of depressed conditions in the coal mines they are in need of rehabilitation, because they are on in years and there is little else they can do. It is very bad for them.
In this report of the Alberta government's committee on rehabilitation it states that in one year alone the total placements were 384 families who were moved with their effects. In another year 325 families were moved into other areas, where they were rehabilitated and found other employment. I shall read one paragraph of the report:
In carrying out its work, the miners' rehabilitation committee wishes to express its appreciation for the valuable assistance rendered by the national employment service and the united mine workers of America, district 18.
Well, $100,000 was appropriated for this purpose. It was found that it was not necessary to spend all the money, because they received such excellent co-operation from these bodies. I shall not say anything more. This must be about the twentieth or twenty-first annual speech I have made on coal. Perhaps they have not been very effective; otherwise something would have been done by this time. But this is the twenty-first year I have been sitting here, and I do not think I have let a year go by without dinning into the ears of the government the need for a national coal policy and trying to do what I can for the coal mining industry of my own constituency and of Canada generally.

It seems that in this particular session the situation is graver than it ever was before. I can only suggest this to the minister. We live in an age of progress. We are building a pipe line that is going to take the place of a great deal of coal in eastern Canada, in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. As I said on a previous occasion, who knows but that it will not be very many years until atomic energy will displace that again? That is the way it goes. Millions and millions of tons of coal are lying in the ground. Perhaps it will continue to lie in the ground until this earth is destroyed and eventually becomes recreated in so many millions of years, with a new race of people who will have to start all over again and commence digging coal. Perhaps that will be the situation.
I shall not say any more, but I wish the minister would tell the coal mining industry exactly what the score is and then take steps to remedy that situation.


Mrs. Shipley:: Earlier this day my colleague and neighbour, the hon. member for Villen-euve, had some very kind words to say about the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys and his staff. The hon. member for Villeneuve comes from Quebec and I come from Ontario. It is true that our ridings abut, but our problems are identical, as I am sure are those of other ridings where gold mines or coal mines exist. But I am not going to take the time of the house to reiterate the thanks to the department expressed by the hon. member for Villeneuve.
Earlier today the hon. member for Bow River spoke of the plight of coal miners. When hon. members speak in this house about coal miners and gold miners, the two words sound so much alike that I have to stretch my ears to make sure which they are talking about, because our problems are almost identical. My hon. friend chose to emphasize the comparison of the subsidy to coal mines with that to gold mines. He mentioned the equivalent of the subsidy in protective tariffs to other industries, but in my opinion we would both be well advised if we compared the subsidies that either one of us receives to those received by the farmers, particularly in western Canada; or the protective tariffs, which are nothing else than subsidies, to the industries in Canada rather than to either his problem or mine. After all, consider these tariffs. For instance, take the electrical industry and the automobile industry. He and I could play tiddley-winks with our subsidies when compared with either of those industries. Every cent of those subsidies is paid by the same 67509-363
5,	1956	5709
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys taxpayers. They are trying to help him out and they are trying to help me out and all others in the same plight.
Furthermore, it would appear to me and I am sure, to every hon. member in this house who has either coal or gold in his riding, that because it is an actual resource of this country and because both have played a great part in the economy of this country and may well do so again-let us pray that they may-we are more entitled to consideration than perhaps a manufacturing industry that is competing with something from another country that can be sold cheaper here.
I hope my hon. friends over here and I can get together on this. We are really not far apart, but perhaps we are not assisting each other quite as much as we might when we compare the help we receive. We are both representing natural industries of this country. I know that the coal in certain parts of the country, and in fact most parts of the country, is not needed very much in industry today. Our gold used to be the most desired natural resource in the whole wide world, but the nations chose to go off the gold standard. Certain things came to pass that made your coal not so valuable for industry. I shall support anything such as a royal commission as suggested by the hon. member for Bow River and others, so that we may find some use for your coal, and I hope my gold will finally attain its former value once again.
Mention was made of the gas pipe line coming in, which will perhaps lessen your market. I do not think the type of coal that comes from Nova Scotia and, to a lesser degree from Alberta is presently used where gas would be used. But it is the same thing with my gold as it is with your coal. This is something we have to face. From my many discussions with the minister whose estimates are now under consideration, I know that the coal problem is one of the main things he considers. When I go to him with my problems he says, "I have just stopped thinking about coal and now I have to think about gold." I do not envy him his position.
I am sorry the hon. member for St. Paul's is not here. I have known the hon. member for many years. He mentioned the surveys that are being made by this department.


George Prudham: He is at a committee meeting.


Marie Ann Shipley: Thank you, Mr. Minister. I was not drawing attention to the fact that he was not in his seat; that was not my intention. That is done all too often in the house in perhaps not too kindly a manner. I have known the hon. member for many
5710	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys years. I was going to be slightly critical of him, and I prefer to be critical to a man's face rather than behind his back. That was the only reason I mentioned that. I am glad the minister said that, because I certainly did not mean to draw attention to it.
The hon. member referred to the many surveys being made by the department. I shall read what the hon. member said tomorrow and if I am wrong in my present understanding I will be glad to apologize. He asked the minister to make it very clear just how the information resulting from these completed surveys was distributed, and I had the definite impression that there was an implication that there was favouritism. I was rather surprised at that comment by the hon. member. I had an experience which I am sure you will all be glad to hear about and I am going to ask the minister if there is enough money in his budget to make certain that this is a common practice where need is proven.
Let me start at the beginning. I had requests from the most important people in my riding, and for those who do not come from mining ridings may I say that the most important people in my riding are the prospectors. They wanted copies of aerial magnetic maps that had been made of the surrounding area and they had never been prepared by the department, where you can get such maps for very little money, next to nothing. I got in touch with the department and they told me that these maps had already been prepared by a private company. They also said that because there was a limited amount of money to spend on making such maps, which are found so valuable by prospectors, they made it a general practice not to duplicate areas that had been done by private companies.
These prospectors in my riding could not afford to buy the maps from the private company even if they would release them. It was suggested by one of the minister's officials that possibly they might be able to obtain the maps, the negatives or whatever you call them, from the private company and make the maps available to the prospectors. After a year or so this was accomplished. As far as favouritism is concerned, the information was finally completed on a Friday and was sent to the newspapers in the area concerned and to me at the same time. I got it on Monday morning but along with the letter from the department notifying me that it had been done I had wires from many prospectors and mining companies in the area thanking me and asking me to thank the minister for getting this done. I hope there is enough money in the department's


estimates to obtain this information, which is very costly to prepare, from private companies and make it available to the prospectors and the mining companies generally.
There is one other matter I should like to ask the minister to investigate. Members of parliament get free copies of statistics, pamphlets and other information from the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. Every member of parliament gets them and probably 20 per cent at most are keenly interested in them. I received the pamphlet referred to this afternoon by my colleague the hon. member for Villeneuve; and when I did I thought, my word, how the people in my home town would like to see that. I went around to three or four members who are not very interested in it, got extra copies and sent them to my home town library. I had a letter back a little while afterward saying that even the topmost thriller in the library had not had as much circulation as these pamphlets.
I should like to make a suggestion to the minister, and in doing so I suggest that the matter should be at his discretion. From time to time we are criticized for our printing bills, and I think it might not be wise to send out such pamphlets to all public libraries in Canada. However, I suggest that the minister should have enough copies of these and other information available so that on the request of a member or any other responsible person and at the minister's discretion-"discretion" only means that he is sure some reasonable use will be made of the information-certain libraries may be put on the mailing list for all publications of his department that might be of interest to those in the area. I lent my copy and I had to go and scrounge another in order to have one. As you know, in my riding we are entirely dependent on mining, and I do know that the pamphlets and other information issued by this department that I have sent to my riding have been invaluable. I hope the minister will see if that can be done. Perhaps he would not have to put any more money in the budget, and I should like him to say if he would welcome requests from members of the house.


Mr. Simmons:: Mr. Chairman, my remarks this evening will differ from those of previous speakers. I was most interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Kootenay West this afternoon, when he dealt with the forgotten expedition into the Arctic in 1903 and 1904 by Commander A. P. Low. It appears strange to me, as I am sure it does to all members of the house, that proper notice was not taken of this historic expedition for many years, in spite of the loss of the proclamation records. I am glad to report,

however, that the Arctic exploration publication of December, 1955 properly deals with this expedition. It is to be hoped that the Canadian Geographical Journal will take the opportunity to publish an article correctly describing this famous expedition, the first Canadian expedition into the Arctic.
This afternoon I followed with interest the remarks of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys dealing with the activities of his department. The minister and his officials have always been eager and willing to cooperate in all matters pertaining to the mining industry in general. They are to be congratulated on the efficiency of their department and for doing an excellent job.
While I am on my feet I wish to take this occasion to say something about the Canadian Geographical Society and the monthly magazine published under its auspices, namely the Canadian Geographical Journal. The Canadian Geographical Society is one of the most public spirited and unselfish organizations in this country. Its ambition is to make Canada better known to Canadians and to the rest of the world. Its chief purpose is to distribute information on the geography, resources and people of this country. To assist in this task, and as its primary object, the society publishes the magazine to which I have referred. The Canadian Geographical Journal in my view is one of the very best periodicals issued anywhere in Canada. In a sense it is the eyes of this nation, because through its illustrated and printed pages it enables Canadians and other people to see this country as an entity.
The Journal writers take threads or fragments of Canada's history and geography and over the years weave or blend these into a meaningful and informative picture of Canada as a whole, in all its interest and variety. In a word, it serves to present a memorable image of Canada.
The Canadian Geographical Society was founded 27 years ago, in 1929, I believe, to be exact. Its first president was that great friend and native son of the Canadian north, Dr. Charles Camsell, C.M.G. Today its president is another great worker in advancing the best interests of northern Canada and other parts as well. Major General H. A. Young, who is also deputy minister of public works, is president of the society at the present time.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: And he is a good president, too.


James Aubrey Simmons: That is fine. Through good times and bad the society has managed to keep the Journal alive and issued regularly. How they do this on the funds available to the society thus far, baffles me. In the 67509-3634
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys United States the corresponding publication has the benefit of very large sums bequeathed by wealthy, public spirited citizens. In Canada there is nothing resembling this type of large-scale financial assistance for a geographical publication. Nevertheless the articles in the Canadian Geographical Journal are of a high calibre and its pages are always handsomely illustrated, sometimes in several colours. Colour printing is a particularly expensive process, however, and I imagine it is a special luxury at present for the Journal.
The success thus far of this Canadian magazine is due in large measure, I believe, to a dedicated board of directors, a wise editorial committee and a very able executive secretary and editor of publications in the person of Gordon M. Dallyn. Incidentally, all directors and committee members serve without remuneration.
The society does much more than publish its worthy journal. It sponsors public lectures and awards scholarships as well as granting financial aid to exploration projects and other research. Its sponsored lectures have been given by such men as Sir Hubert Wilkins, General McNaughton, Dr. MacKintosh Bell, Edward Shackleton and Gordon Robertson, deputy minister of northern affairs and national resources. In addition the society awards scholarships in geography. In the years 1939 to 1953, 29 such scholarships were awarded amounting to a total of $7,400.
In the matter of expenditures to assist exploration, financial aid was contributed by the society to the Baffin islands expedition of 1950 and 1953; to Dr. Williams for geographical investigation in the Churchill region; to Dr. Kimble and associates for a survey of the St. Maurice valley; and to a Mr. Laforest with the upper Orinoco expedition. In addition to sponsoring the production of several documentary films with geographical themes, the society has published and distributed over 5 million pamphlets containing articles from its Journal on 153 separate subjects. It is an astonishing fact that when the Canadian Geographical Society first came into existence there was not one professional geographer in Canada. Today there are over 300.
This year for the first time on record the association of American geographers met outside the United States. Montreal was the city chosen in this connection, and this gesture in itself is a tribute to Canada's significance in the world geographical picture. The international geographical union, which meets every four years, convenes in August this year in Rio de Janeiro. Canada has always been a member of this world organization. For many years the Canadian
5712	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and. Technical Surveys Geographical Society was the nominal sponsor of the Canadian committee of the international geographical union. I am glad to say that Canada will be represented at the Rio meeting this year by Dr. Norman Nicholson, head of the geographical branch, Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I believe that every consideration and support ought to be given by the federal government and by Canadian citizens individually and generally to this organization created to foster greater geographical knowledge.
What are some of the ways in which geographical science helps Canada and Canadians? First, it assists us all to understand better the economic development now taking place in this country. A better knowledge of geography, of the distribution of our natural resources, of fuel supplies and needs -all of these facts help Canadians to grasp in a more intelligent way just what is involved in the concept, engineering and economics of the various projects being undertaken throughout the length and breadth of Canada today. I mention as an example the gas pipe line from Alberta to eastern Canada.
Second, geographical knowledge also enables Canadians generally to understand that in order properly to develop the mineral wealth of the Yukon and the Northwest Territories, railways must be built. On this subject I want to point out that had it not been for Charles Camsell and his lifelong interest in the north, as well as his awareness and knowledge of the importance of the north country, our national development would have been much less extensive.
Third, by studies of the distribution of ice in northern waters, the action of currents and the influence of winds, our scientists are able to assist materially in solving the problems of ocean navigation along our northern coast.
Fourth, survey work in the north, carried out by parties operating under the direction of the geographical branch of the federal mines and technical surveys department, engaged in studying and recording surface conditions in the territories such as the location of navigable rivers, the extent and type of vegetation, the location of muskeg areas and so forth, has been of immeasurable aid in the construction of the D.E.W. line.
From these and many other activities we see that modern geography is not only a relatively new-found art but a vitally important practical science. It teaches us where our various resources are located. We learn about weather, climate and problems of transportation. We gain a better understanding of our own and other lands. It helps


us to dispel the curse of overspecialization in these days in a country where many graduates of our universities are actually ignorant of the character and resources of Canada, and have little appreciation of how their particular field of training relates to the well-being and progress of the country as a whole.
For all these reasons I would therefore strongly urge that the Canadian Geographical Society and its Canadian Geographical Journal are worthy of substantial federal government support in the form of an annual grant or vote. I urge this for a reason even greater than any I have thus far given. The kind of knowledge the society disseminates results in a keener and wider appreciation of the special problems and background of people living in the several distinct regions of this extensive country. In all that it does the society makes for greater mutual understanding among all Canadians, and to this extent is an invaluable agency in creating and promoting greater national unity.


Mr. MacLean:: Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to take up much time of the committee, inasmuch as several points I had intended to mention have already been covered by other members of various parties. No doubt the minister, when he replies, will give the information that I would have asked about.
I was interested in what the minister had to say regarding this little publication, a summary of the activities of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys for 1955. It appears to be a supplement to the annual report. I would be interested in knowing if this booklet is intended for free distribution. I do not see any price marked on it. I wonder whether it covers the same period of time as the annual report, the annual report being for the fiscal year. This booklet indicates that perhaps it is for the calendar year; I am not sure.
The annual report, of course is for the fiscal year which ended March 31, 1955, and therefore is a bit out of date, but the minister did bring us up to date on the activities of his department in a way that was quite informative. I noticed that the introduction to the report is signed by the acting deputy minister. I would be very pleased if the minister would make a statement as to the present position of the deputy minister of the department. I understand that the deputy minister has been on leave, and I think hon. members would be interested in knowing whether or not that is going to be

a continuing situation, whether a replacement is contemplated, and if so when that might take place. I am just seeking information.
I come, of course, from a province that is not of great interest to the mines side of this department. As far as we know we have no minerals that are available in commercial quantities. I was interested to note in the annual report that a geological survey of Prince Edward Island is in process. I might add that the oil companies seem to retain a fairly persistent hope that the geological formations in that area would indicate the possibility that oil exists. At the present time there is a company conducting a survey there to ascertain the wisdom of doing some more exploratory drilling. If oil should be discovered in that area it would be a very great boon to the maritime economy which, as has already been so ably stated, is suffering from the depressed condition of the coal industry.
The technical surveys side is of general interest to all of Canada. In that connection the minister did speak about aerial photography, and I noted that great progress is being made in vertical photography of the whole country. I was wondering if the department have yet got to the stage where they are in a position to do a new aerial survey by vertical photography of the more populated areas, which have changed considerably since the first series of photographs was taken. There are new roads, railways, and changes of that sort; mostly artificial changes. I know that at one time an aerial photographic survey of a large section of the mari-times was made-I think about 20 years ago -and until fairly recently those were the only aerial photographs obtainable. I would be interested in knowing if that is still the situation.
I have a few other questions to ask but I do not wish to delay proceedings, so I shall ask them when the particular items come up.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank hon. members for their comments. In spite of our good intentions the debate on coal crept in, but that is quite all right. I do not propose to answer all those questions and observations until I make a statement on the coal board item.
The hon. member for Kootenay West brought up a very interesting subject, and I thought it was a very useful contribution. I can make this promise, that someone from our department will make it a point this summer to communicate with Dr. Borden and endeavour to obtain all the information available about
5, 1956	5713
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys the historic voyage into the north. From time to time our survey parties find evidence of these early explorers in the north. I think it was last year that they found a cairn on Ellesmere island. I have not the details of the information, but they found some scraps of paper bearing messages that were left by an expedition.
The hon. member for Bow River confined his remarks largely to coal. He and the hon. member for Macleod both referred to page 10 of the report of the dominion coal board. I would recommend to both of them that they also read page 11, and I think they might find at least a partial answer to some of the questions they asked.
I wish to thank the hon. member for Villeneuve for the complimentary remarks he made. I note that he wanted some information about the geophysical work and whether we have developed new methods. We do operate one Canso aeroplane for aerial magnetic surveys under the geological survey, and that Canso plane is also equipped with a radioactivity detector instrument. It has been found by experience that what they call drift will distort the radioactivity of a region. In other words, it provides a shielding effect and the result is that while radioactive areas are indicated they are not able from the results to locate with certainty where the major deposits are. They have found it useful in relation to their geological mapping. It is useful in identifying the rocks. So far we have not published these reports because we believe they are rather misleading to anyone but an expert, but to a limited degree they are useful in studying and identifying the various rocks of a region.
The hon. member for St. Paul's wanted to know about the distribution of our reports. The reports of aerial magnetic surveys usually are not released for about a year or two after the survey is made, for the simple reason that it takes a great deal of time to compile the results on topographical maps. A mailing list is built up in the meantime, and the public is informed that the map will be released on a certain date. No one has an advantage. It is made available to all comers at the same time.
Others have made reference to the distribution of our maps and reports. The printing bureau sends out notices from time to time, usually by postcard, of new reports that are ready for distribution. Our budget this year for the printing of reports is $216,000, and I believe the printing bureau also has a considerable item for the same purpose. The suggestion of the hon. member for Timis-kaming that these reports be made available to libraries is good. Any library board wishing
5714	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys to have those reports made available may have them by writing in, and any member who is interested in promoting the distribution in his own community could probably notify the interested parties.
The hon. member for Cape Breton South made his usual good contribution on coal. I intend to answer him on only one item at this time. He referred to the possible effect on the subvention of the increase in freight rates. Well, the actual increase of 12 cents a ton on coal and coke has now been published by the board of transport commissioners. The amount of the subvention payable is based upon the difference between the laid-down cost of Canadian coal and imported coal. In the case of Nova Scotia coal moving all-rail to the subvention area, that is the market area, the actual increase in freight payable will be 12 cents a ton less the 20 per cent assistance granted under the Maritimes Freight Rates Act, or 9-6 cents. On the competitive coal moving by rail from the United States mines the full increase of 12 cents will apply to the Canadian portion of the haul. The net effect, therefore, will be that while Nova Scotia coal will cost 9-6 cents more, the competitive coal will cost 12 cents more, which will mean a bettering of the competitive position in favour of Nova Scotia coal of 2-4 .cents.
Since this all-rail subvention is calculated on a percentage of the freight rate, that is 45 jper cent, and since the amount is small, the subvention rate will not be reduced to allow for this item. In the case of waterborne coal and railway coal, the subvention payable is directly determined from the laid-down cost of the competitive coals, and wnere there is any alteration in the competitive position from this or any other cause it is automatically covered by the subvention. I am sure that the Gordon commission will do a good job in its study of conditions in the Nova Scotia coal industry.
The hon. member for Yukon mentioned the good work the geographic society is doing in publishing the Canadian Geographical Journal. I would also like to add my appreciation to his. I believe they are doing an excellent job. I am not sure that I heard my hon. friend's suggestion, but I believe he was suggesting a subsidy. It is the first time that has ever come up. I think they are doing a good job and they deserve a great deal of credit. Perhaps they would rather remain good private enterprisers doing a good public job.
The hon. member for Queens mentioned the summary of activities. It is published on an annual basis, that is, for the calendar year, and it comes out ahead of the annual report. We compile it and issue it specifically
IMr. Prudham.l

for the use and information of members of the house, but it is having a somewhat wider distribution, as the hon. member for Ville-neuve mentioned today. There is no charge for it. It costs only $240 to publish.
With regard to the deputy minister, Mr. Boyer had a very severe heart attack over a year ago: He is making a very good recovery. The director general of scientific services, Dr. Hume, has been carrying on as acting deputy minister in the meantime. Mr. Boyer has assumed additional duties as a member of the board of the Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corporation, which is taking quite a bit of his time at present. He is now at the meeting of the mining society of Nova Scotia, and he is gradually getting back into harness. I hope he will soon be fully recovered.
In regard to geological mapping to which the hon. member for St. Paul's referred. I would refer hon. members to page 14 of our summary of activities, where they will find the following:
The present top priority objective is to complete the preliminary reconnaissance mapping of Canada. About 28 million square miles are unmapped geologically on even reconnaissance scales and sound long-term plans for national development and more detailed geological work cannot be made effectively until this reconnaissance has been completed.
This is where our main effort is being directed at the present time. It will take quite a number of years fully to complete. We are gradually doing some rephotographing of certain areas where there is need for it, where there is development taking place, and sometimes at the request of provincial governments. The vertical aerial photographing of continental Canada will be completed in 1957. The geological mapping will take longer, and the detailed topographical mapping will also have to follow.
I believe this answers most of the questions hon. members have asked.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Topographical surveys including expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names-
215. Construction or acquisition of equipment, $106,000.
John Angus MacLean: This item has to do with construction or acquisition of equipment. I notice there is a decrease of $20,000 in the item on this occasion. I think it is a good thing, depending on what the explanation is. Can the minister say what is the explanation for the decrease?


George Prudham: For several years we have had a contract with the Marconi company for the development of a radio geodometer, and it so happens that the amount required this year for that development is less than it was last year.


John Angus MacLean: I am not sure I am asking this question under the correct item but in connection with mapping services that are done by helicopter I should like to know if the helicopters are owned by the government, or are they supplied on a contract basis?


George Prudham: It is done entirely on a contract basis.


Thomas Miller Bell: Has the minister any information concerning the hydrographic survey that was slated to begin in southern New Brunswick?


George Prudham: Well, Mr. Chairman, I
wonder if my hon. friend could be a little more specific in his question. When we undertake a survey in a certain area we always stay with it until it is completed.


Thomas Miller Bell: I can give the minister the counties in the province which the survey was supposed to include. These were Charlotte, Saint John and Albert, in southern New Brunswick.


George Prudham: If we could stand that item, Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate it. The man in charge of the hydrographic surveys is in the official gallery.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: I wonder if I might point out that item 215 covers topographical surveys. Shall item 215 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: Shall item 216 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Stand.
Item stands.
219. Provincial and territorial boundary surveys, $50,725.


Mr. Green:: Will the minister explain the vork that is being paid for under this item?


George Prudham: Yes, Mr. Chairman. At the request of provincial governments this department undertakes a survey of interprovincial boundaries, and the same applies between the provinces and the Northwest Territories. At the request of the two parties concerned this department will appoint a man to the commission and share the expense with the provincial governments concerned.


Howard Charles Green: Are those boundaries not already fully marked? I notice on page 290 reference is made to the Alberta-Northwest Territories boundary and the British Co-lumbia-Yukon-Northwest Territories boundary and the Saskatchewan-Northwest Territories boundary.
5, 1956	5715
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


George Prudham: They are not completed as yet. We have a preliminary report on the Alberta-Northwest Territories boundary but it has not yet been approved and it has not been submitted to the Alberta legislature or to this parliament.


Howard Charles Green: Has the boundary never been surveyed between British Columbia and the Yukon and British Columbia and the Northwest Territories?


George Prudham: It is being done at the present time, but it is not completed as yet.


Howard Charles Green: Will this complete it?


George Prudham: No, it will not be completed this year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: How much more is it going to cost to complete the work beyond this year? Is the minister in a position to tell us that?


George Prudham: No, I would not like to hazard a guess, because it is extremely rough territory and we never know until it is completed. We have no estimate on that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Can the minister say what period of time will be required to complete the survey?


George Prudham: Are you speaking of
the British Columbia-Northwest Territories boundary?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


George Prudham: I understand there has been a preliminary survey of the entire boundary but it was found there were inaccuracies, and some of it is being resurveyed at the present time. Today I saw the preliminary report on the Alberta-Northwest Territories boundary and we found there were some discrepancies or variations in two different locations involving, I think, seven or eight acres in each instance. Whether that will be resurveyed to be made exactly right or whether the provincial government will agree with the Northwest Territories representations that it is all right the way it is and that the original survey work be recognized as the boundary, we cannot say as yet. If we had to stay with it until it was absolutely perfect it might take quite a long time, but there are three parties concerned and we cannot say just how long it will take to complete.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Map compilation and reproduction-
220. Administration, operation and maintenance, $923,986.
John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, I believe this is the item the Canada atlas comes under, is that correct?

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


George Prudham: Would the hon. member
mind repeating his question?


John Angus MacLean: Is this the item under which questions should be asked regarding the new Canada atlas?


George Prudham: No. 218 would be the item, I suppose. Legal surveys come under 218 it you are referring to the Canada Lands Surveys Act.


John Angus MacLean: Perhaps the minister misunderstood me; I was inquiring about the new Canada atlas.


George Prudham: I am sorry. That would be under geographical surveys item 228.


John Angus MacLean: In that case I will hold my question until we reach item 228 but in connection with-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Ten o'clock.


John Angus MacLean: -this particular item I have some questions. Perhaps the committee might rise now and report progress as it is ten o'clock.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Walter Edward Harris: We shall continue tomorrow with these estimates and the estimates of veterans affairs and then labour.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:
DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE Civil service commission-
84. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $2,599,117.	;

[Stage Direction]
337.	Departmental administration, $518,347.
338.	Purchasing, stationery and stores, $1,164,453.
339.	Distribution of official documents, $302,473.
340.	Printing and binding of official publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public, $485,000.
341.	Printing of Canada Gazette, $110,000.
342.	Printing and binding the annual statutes, $35,000.
343.	Plant equipment and replacements, $500,606.
671.	Distribution of official documents-further amount required, $10,665.
672.	Plant equipment and replacements-further amount required, $245,438.
673.	To provide for reimbursement of the queen's printer's advance account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $7,277.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
209.	Departmental administration, $510,190.
Explosives Act-	.
210.	Explosives Act-administration, operation and maintenance, $107,865.
Surveys and mapping branch-*
211.	Surveys and mapping branch administration, $57,242.
212.	Geodetic survey of Canada-administration, operation and maintenance, $567,786.
213.	International boundary commission, $58,060.
Topographical surveys, including expenses of the Canadian board on geographical names-
214.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,584,232.
215.	Construction or acquisition of equipment,
[Stage Direction]
217.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $461,290.
218.	Legal surveys and aeronautical charts, including a grant of $500 to the Canadian institute of surveying and photogrammetry, $644,832.
219.	Provincial and territorial boundary surveys, $50,725.
Surveys and mapping branch-
Canadian hydrographic service-
649. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and	equipment-further amount
required, $500,000.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, July 6, 1956