1956-07-06

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I directed a question to the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs arising out of the situation in Poznan, Poland, and he stated then that he would bring the matter to the attention of the Secretary of State for External Affairs when he returned.
As time is very much of the essence, Mr. Speaker, I again ask the minister whether or not the Canadian government will give immediate consideration to sending to the Polish government a request on behalf of Canada that those who stood for freedom in the recent uprisings in Poland shall not have visited upon them barbarous and unnatural punishments and pointing out that while the Canadian people expect justice to be done they ask that unnecessary cruelties and barbarous conduct be avoided.


Hon. Roch Pinard (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, I fully understand the seriousness of the matter. I have just been informed that the Secretary of State for External Affairs will be back tomorrow. There is nothing I can add to what I said yesterday, but I will take up the matter with him tomorrow when he returns.


NEWFOUNDLAND
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs. Will the minister investigate further the accuracy of his statement to the house that the United States northeast air command, on its own initiative, sent a letter to its Canadian employees on May 12, 1956, informing them that the provisions of the Canadian Civil Service Act regarding participation of civil servants in federal and provincial elections would be applied in principle to Canadian civilian employees of northeast air command?
In view of a report that a man named Fred Clarke in charge of civilian personnel at air bases issued these instructions, will the minister determine under whose authority Mr. Clarke issued these instructions?


Roch Pinard: Mr. Speaker, I did in fact discuss this matter with the officials of the department this morning. I may say that the information I gave yesterday is correct. This information came through the United States embassy and the United States northeast air command issued the directive about political activities and accepts full responsibility for it.


INQUIRY AS TO EXPORT OF STRATEGIC
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: May I
ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if there are any negotiations going on at present with a view to modification in the list of strategic materials as applied to trade with China, if Canada is having any part in such negotiations and if the government is aware of any recent infringements of the existing list of strategic materials on the part of any countries that are bound by the present embargo?


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Negotiations continue to be carried on in Paris. I am sure that Mr. Wilgress, who represents us there, is taking part in them. There have been certain violations-at least, I would call them violations, although I am not sure whether or not they are violations technically-in the shipment of strategic materials into Red China. For example, Ceylon has been shipping rubber into that country. Canada has made no representations to the NATO council in recent weeks.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask further, Mr. Speaker, whether there is any reason why the full list of strategic materials could not be made public and in particular the difference between the list as applied to shipments to Russia on the one hand and the list as applied to shipments to Red China on the other.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker,
the list is a public document. I do not know of any reason why it cannot be tabled in the house. If my hon. friend will put on the order paper a motion that the list be tabled, I will be pleased to table it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Could the minister deal with the other point about the difference between the two lists. There is a difference between the lists of strategic materials applied to the two countries, is there not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My recollection is that the two lists are the same. However, if the hon. member will ask for both, we will table both lists.


POSTAL SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Postmaster General. Is it the intention of the Post Office Department to establish railway mail service on the recent extension of the Pacific Great Eastern Railway between Squamish and North Vancouver? If so, when will this service commence?


Hon. Hugues Lapointe (Postmaster General):: Mr. Speaker, it is the intention of the department to make use of the P.G.E. line to Britannia Beach and Squamish. However, the latest information that the department has is that construction is still going on. Of course, until a regular train schedule is issued by the P.G.E., it is impossible to make any definite plans.


NATURAL RESOURCES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. G. J. Hahn (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys, notice of which I sent him earlier this day. Would the minister indicate whether he has received a request from Premier Bennett of the province of British Columbia or other departmental ministers of that government asking him to prohibit export of iron ore from that province? If so, what action does he intend to take on the matter?


Hon. George Prudham (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his intention to ask this question. The answer is no. We have received no such correspondence.


AIR TRANSPORT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. George C. Marler (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, some days ago the hon. member for Kootenay East, following the accident which occurred to the Venezuelan airliner, asked me if I would consider revising the Aeronautics Act to provide that no dumping of gasoline shall be allowed while aircraft are in flight. I should like to say that I have had the opportunity of conferring with the officials of my department who advise me as follows: It is standard aeronautical practice for aircraft takeoff weights to be in excess of permissible landing weights for the same aircraft, and aircraft operations are based on this practice. This means that if an aircraft with a heavy fuel load is compelled to land sooner than expected and, therefore, has not used up the required amount of fuel it may have to rid itself of this fuel while still in the air before making an emergency landing so as to reduce its weight to the permissible landing weight. In these circumstances, two courses are open. One is for the aircraft to continue flying until it has actually used up the fuel and the other is to dump the fuel while still in the air through emergency valves especially built for this purpose. Fuel dumping in the air is an accepted and necessary safety practice in the event of an emergency landing, particularly where the aircraft has not been able for one reason or another to continue flying so as to use up the fuel.
I should like to make it quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that these remarks do not constitute in any way a judgment as to the cause of the accident to the Venezuelan airliner, as to which we have no information in the department.


BRITISH COLUMBIA-STATEMENT RESPECTING CONSIDERATION OF LANGLEY AS SECONDARY AIRPORT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Carlyle Marler: Yesterday the hon. member for New Westminster referred to the Langley airport. I have been informed that the Langley airport is a useful supplement to the Vancouver international airport and we expect that it would be used for this purpose to an increasing degree in the future, particularly for light aircraft. With this in mind, the federal government has already assisted in the development of the Langley airport and hopes that it may be possible to provide some measure of further assistance in the future. The

Langley airfield, however, will not in itself provide adequate relief for the growing problem of air traffic in the Vancouver area and it is quite clear that an additional airport will have to be developed before long.
I have already announced that if the site at White Rock proves suitable for construction purposes it is our intention to proceed with the development of an airport in that area. Since this announcement was made, I have received some representations against the use of the site at White Rock as an airport and these representations are at present under consideration.


SHIPPING
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Carlyle Marler: On July 3, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for New Westminster raised the question of an amendment to the minor waters navigation regulations with regard to achieving greater control over the speed of freighters and tugs which fail to observe the proper speed limit and in consequence damage fishing vessels and floats. If the hon. member has specific reference to the lower reaches of the Fraser river, solution of this problem may be found to be within the jurisdiction of the New Westminster harbour commissioners since the New Westminster harbour limits include these lower reaches. In any event, this matter has been drawn to the attention of the commission.
Any further action in this matter through the use of the minor waters navigation regulations could be better considered after the amendments to the Canada Shipping Act which are at present before this house have been dealt with, since one of these amendments would affect the scope of the regulations in question.


WHEAT AND BARLEY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce arising out of a recent statement that Canada would like to enter the China market for barley and wheat. Are any new representations to China being contemplated in the hope that we may develop this market for substantial quantities of Canadian wheat and barley?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have no diplomatic relations with communist China and therefore no official representations have been made or are being made. Inquiries have been made by responsible members of the wheat board about the situation in China, and the information they have received is that China is not at present in the market for either wheat or barley. China has bought fertilizer from Canada and the objective would seem to be to become self-contained in foodstuffs.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: Does the minister imply, in his reply to the effect that we have no representative in China, that it does interfere with our trading relations with that country?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I would say very definitely that it interferes with our ability to get official information from that country; however, it does not interfere with any desire that the authorities in China may have of making purchases of foodstuffs in Canada. That can be arranged, but without official representation in China any Canadian who enters that country is on his own. Whether he can approach the proper officials or not depends on his own ingenuity, not on the usual official introductions that he would expect in any other country.


ST. LAWRENCE SEAWAY SUGGESTED REOPENING OF DISCUSSIONS WITH CAUGHNAWAGA INDIANS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. M. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. In view of the fact that earlier this week almost the entire membership of the Caughnawaga Indian reserve band council changed when the council election was held, does the minister intend to reopen discussions with the council regarding the acquisition of land for the seaway, since this election would seem to indicate dissatisfaction with the way in which it has been carried on in the past?


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would hesitate to interpret the election results in the Indian reserve with the same confidence that the hon. member for Notre Dame de Grace seems to have. There is no question of reopening any conversations with the council of the band. We have been having these conversations all along and we shall continue to have them with the regularly constituted authorities of the band.

Inquiries of the Ministry CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY


REFERENCE TO ALLEGED DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PENSIONERS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has the minister any progress to report in connection with the offer which he made on June 15 to support the representations made on the floor of parliament with regard to discrimination by the Canadian Pacific Railway against some of its pensioners?


Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour):: No, Mr. Speaker, I have no comment to make other than that which I made on that occasion.



CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. I have not given him notice of my intention to ask this question, so he may wish to take it as notice.
Since there are others who are interested in the welfare of the Fraser valley besides the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond (Mr. Goode) and Senator Reid, I wonder whether the minister can advise the house if any decision has been reached relative to the application of the municipalities for the co-operation of the Indian affairs branch in mosquito control? If so, what has been the decision?


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; I have no difficulty. I have already advised all the hon. members, including the hon. member for New Westminster, who communicated with me on this subject, that we are contributing $1,500 to this excellent cause, and if the hon. gentleman who has just addressed the question to me had communicated with me about it= earlier I would have informed him also.


Alexander Bell Patterson: May I say I have been in communication with the officials of the minister's department for several weeks.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Yes; I understand, sir, that the hon. gentleman was duly informed by the officials of my department of what had been decided.


Alexander Bell Patterson: That was when I phoned them this morning.


The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

The Chairman:: I understand that resolution 216 stood over last night. Is it the intention to proceed with it?
Canadian hydrographic service

216.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's annual contribution of $4,200 to the international hydrographic bureau, $3,017,362.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall this resolution carry?


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Saint John-Albert last night inquired about hydrographic surveys in southern New Brunswick. We understand from a subsequent conversation with the hon. member that he really means aeromag-netic surveys. A meeting was held in November in Fredericton in which departmental officials participated and arrangements were made to make a survey of southwestern New Brunswick including the counties of Charlotte and part of Queens and Kings. The area was flown in May of this year and the maps that are the result of this survey are now being compiled and will be released as soon as they are completed.
This area is part of the mineral belt of New Brunswick and the aeromagnetic maps will supplement the geological information already available.


Mr. Bell:: Well, Mr. Chairman, when the announcement was made with respect to this survey it was meant to include Saint John, Kings and Albert counties and it was definitely set up as a southern New Brunswick survey. I have a press clipping here of a conversation that was held with the Minister of Labour and some officials. Perhaps it is not as definite as we might have hoped but it certainly indicated that these counties would be included in the survey and the allocation for this survey would be in the estimates of the department this year. If I could just ask the minister if it is meant to include the counties of Saint John and Albert and when this may begin, it would satisfy me.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, I know that this arrangement was made in conjunction with our officials and the officials of the department concerned in New Brunswick. Consultation was held and it was decided what areas should be flown and that has been carried out. My officials here think my hon. friend is correct and that these areas were included although it is not in this statement.


Thomas Miller Bell: May I take it then, Mr. Chairman, that this survey which has begun or will begin in the near future is to include in it the county of Saint John and part of Albert?


George Prudham: The survey has already been completed; the flying has been done. They are now preparing the report and the maps.


Thomas Miller Bell: The county of Saint John and part of Albert were surveyed-at least that part of it has already been done with respect to these particular counties?


George Prudham: I cannot be too sure of that. We think so but we are not sure.


Thomas Miller Bell: Well, Mr. Chairman, this is rather unusual because I have a statement here from the Moncton Transcript dated November 25. The announcement was made by the Minister of Labour. This was not an official announcement from the department but he was called on the phone by the Saint John people. I attended one meeting and it was stated definitely. The clipping reads:
The Minister of Labour said it was expected that the counties of Saint John, Charlotte. Kings and part of Albert would be mapped.
And then, when he was further asked just how definite this might be, he said:
"I do not indulge in double-talk."
. . . Mr. Gregg said he would "support in any way an item in the estimates for the survey in the southern section of New Brunswick".
I still persist in my question concerning Saint John and Albert. I think probably these counties were done because we saw the planes overhead but I would like to be definite about it, Mr. Chairman.


George Prudham: The Minister of Labour took an active part in helping to bring about the survey. We do know that the most promising mineral belt was flown. Just at the moment we are not sure about the counties mentioned by the hon. member. We can look that up and I will supply the exact information later.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I should like to comment upon what has been said by the hon. member. As my colleague has stated, I did have some part in helping to arrange the meeting which was held at Fredericton, which he attended but which I did not. As he knows, officials of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys met with officials of the department of mines of New Brunswick. It was my view at that time, as was stated in this report- I was called on the long distance telephone, I did not call the newspaper-that those parts of New Brunswick were involved. I think the officials thought that it would take in part of Saint John county and parts of Albert, Kings and Charlotte counties. It
6.	1956	5721
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys would comprise the belt across the southern rocky portion of the province of New Brunswick. If my colleague finds out that these areas have not been done I hope that he will give consideration to having them done at the first opportunity.


Thomas Miller Bell: Could the minister find out if those counties were included?


George Prudham: Yes.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


Thomas Miller Bell: No, I think it will have to stand until we get this information.


George Prudham: I am not sure that I can get it quickly, but I will supply the information to my hon. friend as soon as possible.


Thomas Miller Bell: As soon as possible means very little to me with time receiving the funny consideration it now receives from this parliament. I do not see why this item could not stand for a few minutes. Surely the department must have some knowledge of the particular counties. I am not asking if the entire counties were done, but they should know what counties were mapped.


George Prudham: The information is given in longitude and latitude and we would have to consult the county maps to make sure which counties are included.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


Mr. Nowlan:: No. I have a question to ask on this item. I think the hon. member for Saint John-Albert is making a perfectly reasonable request when he asks that the item be allowed to stand. I can understand the information being given in longitude and latitude but that is no reason why the information could not be supplied. The records could be checked and the question answered.
I wonder if the minister could give us some general information with regard to this item. I certainly know very little about hydrographic surveys, but I have talked with those who have experience with these things. I understand that in preparing these charts the charts which were originally prepared by the British admiralty many years ago are used. The British authorities made these original surveys and turned the charts over to this government and now the minister's department is responsible for them.


George Prudham: Yes.


George Clyde Nowlan: I understand that in many cases the department is still using these old original charts which were prepared perhaps 50, 75 or 100 years ago when they did not have the equipment and scientific data which are available today. I believe the
5722	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys minister does have records to indicate that there are obstructions, rocks and other things which were not indicated on these original charts, and I understand that in fact some departmental ships have encountered such obstructions.
I wonder whether the minister could give the committee some outline of just where this matter stands, how much of this work has been done within recent years and in how many cases are we still dependent upon the old charts which were perhaps made by captains of British frigates cruising around our waters 100 or 150 years ago. It does seem to me that this is a phase of the departmental work which is rather important and if we do have the responsibility for doing all this work now the committee should know how much of it has been brought up to date and how much of it still remains to be done in the years to come before we have a complete and modern set of charts for all of our coastal waters. I think the minister could make a general statement along that line for the committee.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, they are still using a few of the old British admiralty charts but they are being replaced as quickly as possible. I suppose my hon. friend is interested in work being done on the Atlantic coast. The C.G.S. Kapuskasing has a detached party stationed at North Rustico, Prince Edward Island, which has carried out inshore charting off the north shore of the island. The motor launch, Henry Hudson, operating in the Canso area and the motor launch, Anderson, operating in the Liverpool-Cape Raceway area continue to chart the inshore waters off the southern coast of Nova Scotia. As a result a number of hitherto uncharted shoals have been added to the charts of these waters. It is true that these old charts are not entirely accurate. When re-surveys are made reefs are found that are probably just slightly below the safety level, and as fast as possible they are charting these areas, especially where there is heavy shipping.


Mr. MacLean:: With respect to the north coast of Prince Edward Island and the Rustico area where hydrographic charts are now being made, is this the first hydrographic survey made by the department in recent years? Up until that time have modern navigators been dependent on the old British charts of that area, surveys made by Admiral Bayfield and others? Is this the first departmental hydrographic survey in that area?


George Prudham: Hydrographic survey officials are at present working in that area revising the old charts. It would take quite 

a bit of research to find out how old some of the charts are, but we are endeavouring to bring them up to date right at the present moment.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


Mr. Hees:: I think that the hon. member for Saint John-Albert is entitled to an answer to the question he asked the minister.


George Prudham: The question was stood. We are getting the answer.


George Harris Hees: Yes, but I do not think the item should carry until the question is answered. Are you standing this item?


George Prudham: Yes.
Item stands.
Map compilation and reproduction-
220. Administration, operation and maintenance, $923,986.


John Angus MacLean: Would the minister be good enough to give the committee a brief outline of what the situation is especially with regard to the compilation of maps primarily for aerial navigation? As far as information respecting the northern part of Canada is concerned, what is the procedure? I should preface my remarks by saying that it is essential that other countries, especially the United States, have aerial navigation maps of large areas of this country, if not all of it, and I was wondering what the policy is. Does the government furnish other friendly countries with the required information and do they print their own aerial navigation maps or do we actually sell the maps we have produced to other countries?
This question has arisen in my mind chiefly from looking over an excellent booklet published by the department regarding a profile study of the new Quebec crater. I notice there, if I read it correctly, that the first aerial photograph on which this crater was noted was one taken by the United States air force in 1942 and the first maps on which it appeared were ones produced by the United States air force. Apparently the department also published a map in 1942 with the information on it. Then the following three maps, one produced in 1944 and two in 1945, were also produced by the United States air force.
Appendix B to the booklet would indicate that the first aerial photograph of the crater was taken by trimetrogon survey in 1943 by the United States air force. The first photographs taken by Canada on which the crater appeared were taken by the R.C.A.F. in 1946, three years later. I wonder what the position is. I should like to think that as a nation we have greater and prior knowledge of the northern part of our own country. I think the

question of national pride demands that, if nothing else. Would the minister say a word on that?


George Prudham: During the period of the war Canada was completely covered by trimetro-gon photography. There was a very urgent need and the United States did co-operate in that particular area of the country, but this department made the maps from that photography. As I said before, trimetrogon photographs were taken and the maps were prepared on the scale of 8 miles to the inch. The R.C.A.F. took up the work as soon as they had the equipment available, and in the last two years we have been doing our photography work by contract. However, I do not think there is any special significance in the fact that the United States took the original photographs of that area, other than the needs of defence.


John Angus MacLean: I take it that at the present time the United States government publishes its own maps for aerial navigation and we do not supply them with maps produced in Canada.


George Prudham: The Canadian aeronautical charts are published by us. Any other country has the privilege of making whatever maps they wish. We received a very nice portfolio of maps from Russia recently. They are splendidly done and the work is excellent. They had a world atlas and they had a map of Canada that was very beautiful and carefully done. We have no control over the mapping that other countries do but we do provide the aeronautical charts for Canada.


George Clyde Nowlan: I suppose that map compilation covers all kinds of maps that are made as the result of surveys of every kind, including general maps of the country. I was rather intrigued by what the minister said about the map of Canada that had been prepared by Russia. He said it was a very excellent product. In visiting some of the rural schools of our country from time to time I have sometimes been rather dismayed at the ancient maps of Canada you will find hanging on the school walls. Some of them still show the old Northwest Territories and some of them were certainly prepared long before Newfoundland took over part of the eastern seaboard of the country because it is shown as part of the province of Quebec. In other words, in many cases the maps are hopelessly out of date. I am wondering whether the department has prepared recently a modern up-to-date map of the Dominion of Canada as such showing the proper boundaries and the delineations of the country as we now understand them, with possibly a little uncertainty
6, 1956	5723
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys as to the border between Quebec and Newfoundland on the extreme east of this country. If that has been done, under what arrangement are these maps distributed to schools? Do they do it through the department of education of the various provinces? Do they buy these maps from you or just what is the arrangement? I am not suggesting the responsibility lies with the minister. It may lie with the department of education in a province or it may lie with an individual school board which is perhaps careless or so short of funds that it has not provided proper maps for its schools. If we are going to inculcate a proper pride in and a knowledge of this country and if we are trying to teach geography in our schools, I think the basis of that is accurate maps properly and attractively prepared, as apparently I would judge the Russians did in connection with these specimens they sent to the minister. I wonder what we are doing in that connection? When did we last prepare a complete map of Canada for distribution and how is it distributed?


George Prudham: The latest map of Canada was released for distribution in early 1955 at a nominal price. There is a special discount to dealers and to school boards or any organization where they would make a substantial distribution.


George Clyde Nowlan: Are these maps distributed directly to provincial educational authorities or are they sold through dealers? The minister says the last one was in 1955. Can he tell the committee when the previous one had been issued? In other words, could he tell us the time lapse between 1955 and the map issued prior to that time?


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, just at the moment I have not the date when the previous map was issued. I know that we have an up-to-date map of Canada available to anyone who wishes to pay the small sum involved.


George Clyde Nowlan: What is the small sum?


George Prudham: Depending on the size, 25 cents to 50 cents; probably some go as high as $1.50. These maps are available to members without charge. I think every hon. member should have one for his own office. It is a good map. It is very nicely done. I am sure that school boards would be well advised to acquire them.


George Clyde Nowlan: I am afraid of that suggestion, Mr. Chairman. I am afraid that perhaps some local school board will suggest that the local member for the constituency should buy these new maps for every one of the schools. This perhaps is a subject that I should drop and leave alone immediately.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys However, I suggest to the minister that more publicity should be given to these maps. I am not speaking of schools in Nova Scotia only. I have seen the same thing in other schools. In fact, in some of the rural areas in Ontario where I have happened to be I have seen maps which certainly far antedate 1955. If they were not prepared before the first war, I would be surprised. I think steps should be taken by this department, in conjunction with the educational authorities of the various provinces, to see that this new, apparently modern, accurate and up-to-date map is given publicity and that steps be taken by his department to encourage its distribution so that it at least will be in every school house in this country.


George Prudham: I have a note here which reads as follows: In the case of public libraries such as those operated in the cities of Montreal and Toronto, one copy of each map is supplied free of charge. In order to keep this collection up to date the name of the library is added to our automatic mailing list for single copies of new and revised maps as issued. Extra copies of any of the maps are charged for at the discount rate of 40 per cent off list price. Small libraries receive a few free maps for their immediate area. The method of distribution of maps to schools is outlined on the list of maps suitable for school use. They have a special list compiled in the case of universities. One free copy is sent to the head of a department such as geography or geology. Extra copies of these maps are sold at 40 per cent discount.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the distribution of the reproduction maps, I have first a suggestion I should like to make in a somewhat humourous vein. I wish the minister would send the C.B.C. a copy of one of the most recent maps because I notice one of their programs-I believe it is called "Trans-Canada Hit Parade"-that shows an abysmal ignorance of geography, especially of the maritime provinces. They are shown on their map just in the background as just a sort of blob and my province is completely missing from their map.


George Prudham: I should like to put in another little plug for the department. I think I did so once before. Hon. members have seen the beautiful map in the railway committee room. When that map was prepared, because of its size it had to be prepared on the floor and it all had to be done by hand. The tracing and the colouring is all hand work. It is really a masterpiece. I think the people who had the responsibility for producing that map deserve a great deal of credit.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the reproduction maps, I had a question or two. I do not pose as an expert on maps but previous activity required me to have some knowledge of maps and they are therefore of rather special interest to me in an amateurish way. I happen to have here a map of Canada. The scale is 100 miles to the inch. It is indicated that it was printed in 1951. I notice that it shows two fairly extensive railways one from Seven Islands up into Labrador and another in Manitoba. They are shown on the map. This is a 1951 map. I am sure that these railways did not exist in 1951. I presume the explanation is that the date of the map should have been changed to some later date and that that was not done when the map was being brought up to date. To me that would indicate sort of sloppy editing, but perhaps there is some other explanation. Then although the key does not show what it is meant to indicate, the map indicates what I take to be a railway under construction or a proposed railway out on the west coast in northern British Columbia just south of the Alaska border. I point that out because I obtained what looks like the same map in French. The French copy of this map is rather interesting to me. It is basically the same map, but I notice that it is dated 1956 and that it shows these two railways as being completed, namely the first two I mentioned, the one in Labrador and the other in Manitoba. However, it does not show this one under construction or whatever is supposed to be represented by this broken red line in B.C. So on looking at the map it would appear that things were in a greater state of advancement in 1951 than in 1956, if you were to take these maps at face value. Of course I know that is not the explanation. It probably is a bit of careless editing.
Also in that connection I happen to have a sheet here of a map produced by the department. It is the Portage mountain sheet. When I saw this I was under the impression that Portage mountain was in British Columbia. It is indicated here as being in Alberta. I looked up the annual report and I find where it lists the sheets that were printed for the area covered by the last report, and it shows this sheet as one of them all right. In the report it shows Portage mountain in the right province. It shows it in British Columbia, although the map itself indicates that Portage mountain is in northern Alberta. Now, these are perhaps small things but to one who is interested in maps, they are errors that one would think inexcusable. I just wonder what explanation the minister might have in that regard.

Then I was interested in ascertaining whether the reproduction of maps is done entirely by the government printing establishment or whether some of them are being reproduced by contract. If the latter is the case, I should like to have some figures as to the amount paid to each of the various contractors and who they have been over the last two or three years.


George Prudham: I am not able to say, Mr. Chairman, whether the hon. member was right in the discrepancies he pointed out, but I agree with him that if they exist as he says they are inexcusable. We will certainly check on that.
With regard to the farming out of map production, we do all the maps unless they are very complicated geological maps where many colours are involved. Occasionally we do let that type of work out to outside firms which are better equipped to do the work.


John Angus MacLean: Would the minister be kind enough to give the committee some figures as to the cost of these maps or the amounts paid to various contractors for the publication of maps in the last year. I should like to have some figures on that.
While the minister is getting that information perhaps I might draw his attention to a couple of other small points with regard to this item. I wonder if the minister can give us some figures as to what size the staff of this branch was five years ago and what it is now. How much has it grown or decreased in size over a period of say five years? I just mention five years so we will have an indication of the mapping activities of the department.
I have seen listed a manual for cartographers, which apparently has been produced by the department. I presume that is for the use of its own staff, but I was wondering if it is meant for general distribution and if so what is the extent of the distribution, what would it sell for and what was the cost of production?


George Prudham: What report is that again?


John Angus MacLean: It is a cartographers' manual which I believe the department has published.


George Prudham: The answer to the last question is that the cartographers' manual was prepared for the use of our own department. We are not aware that it has any outside distribution.
In regard to the printing of maps by outside contractors, that is done through the queen's printer. We have no information as to the cost.
At the present time, we have 214 employees in that reproduction division and that has
6, 1956	5725
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys been increasing progressively with the volume of work. I am sorry, but at the moment I cannot give the figures for five years back. I would be glad to obtain those figures and give them to my hon. friend.


John Angus MacLean: Do I interpret the minister's earlier answer as meaning that the queen's printer arranges for a contract for printing maps with an outside contractor and the expense is borne by another department or through some other item and is not part of the moneys which we are voting now?


George Prudham: We do reimburse the queen's printer for the work done during the year but we have no record, at least not here, of the individual contracts that they let on our behalf.


John Angus MacLean: Can the minister give us a lump sum amount by which the queen's printer was reimbursed for that type of work in recent years?


George Prudham: While the officials are looking up this information, I now have some information for the hon. member for Saint John-Albert. The county of Charlotte is complete; most of Kings county, most of Saint John and the southeast portion of Queens.


Thomas Miller Bell: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to pin down the minister to a specific latitude and longitude but when he says "most of Saint John" I take it he means more than half of the county?


George Prudham: Well, yes; the most promising part from the standpoint of minerals.
Item 216 agreed to.


Mr. Pallelt:: I understand that the United States has recently prepared a map of that country and by merely looking at it you can ascertain the topography. You do not have to read the different levels of elevation because that is shown by degrees of colour. I understand it is quite a large job and I wondered if any similar project was being undertaken here?


George Prudham: The particular map to which my hon. friend refers is a very nice map. I have seen it in many offices across Canada. Our department does that type of work for smaller areas only, for maps on the scale of eight miles to the inch. Although the map to which my hon. friend refers is an excellent map and serves the purpose of most people, it perhaps lacks the detail that would be required of our department, and therefore our maps are done on a smaller scale for a smaller area and in more detail.


John Cameron Pallett: I appreciate that, but I wondered if any steps were being taken by the department. The minister says the map is
5726	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys satisfactory for most people, and I understand that is what the government is supposed to be concerned about, most people. I just want to know if any steps are being taken by this department to prepare a map of Canada similar to the one which has been prepared for the United States?


George Prudham: I understand that particular map retails for $40. We do not believe there is a sufficient demand for that type of map in Canada to go into a large scale production of it. For one thing, there is a private company in the field already. As I say, we do produce maps of smaller areas giving that type of information, and it has to be done precisely. I think we could point out features that are missing on that map. They are not important for the use to which most people put the map. I do not think our department could turn out even a small map without more precision as to detail.
Mr. Pallet!: Once you move away the cotton batting from the minister's answer, Mr. Chairman, I gather the department is not making such a map and does not intend to make such a map. Is that correct?


George Prudham: We have produced some but not on a large scale. It has been for local areas only, not for the whole of Canada.


John Cameron Pallett: Is it the intention of the department to make it for the whole of Canada?


George Prudham: No, Mr. Chairman. As I say, there is already a private enterpriser in the field and we think he is doing a good job, serving the public well and we do not intend to compete with him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological surveys-
222. Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in the geological sciences, an amount of $1,875 for Canada's share of the cost of the committee on mineral resources and geology, London, England, and an amount of $40,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $2,314,954.
Mr. Harkness:: This item has to do with geological surveys. I wonder whether the minister can outline to us briefly what type of geological surveys have been carried on during the past year and where? As far as these surveys are concerned, I would be interested to know particularly what division there may be between those for minerals in the ordinary sense of that term, gold, uranium base metals, and so forth, and petroleum products, oil and gas?


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, this department does not prospect for any one mineral. We provide the basic interpretation of the


rocks, and it is up to the provincial governments and to private enterprise to do the prospecting.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I was not asking about prospecting; I was asking what type of surveys had been carried on and where.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, I have a map here showing the location of all of our geological parties. I would be glad to supply this map to my hon. friend or to any other hon. member. There were 70 parties out in the field. They are not searching for any particular mineral; they are just trying to take some of the hazards, some of the risks out of the search that private enterprise carries on. We prepare the reports and maps of the basic geology and industry carries on from there.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Perhaps I can put it in this way. In what parts of Canada were those surveys carried on in the past year?


George Prudham: If my hon. friend would read the summary of activities, or the annual report, of the department he would find that information. On page 16 there is a map showing the distribution of the parties, and on page 17 there is a list. Does my hon. friend want this put on Hansard or not?


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, I do not think there is any need to put it on Hansard.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


George Clyde Nowlan: I notice in the Summary of Activities to which the minister has just referred, and which I think is something new -at least I had not seen it before-a summary of the activities of the department is given. I notice that on page 13 it says that a reorganization of the geological survey of Canada took place last year and resulted in six divisions and servicing units shown on the chart below. Actually, there are eight shown on the chart below. There are six squares which are larger than the two smaller ones at the bottom. Just what is meant by the sentence that there are six divisions and servicing units shown on the chart below? Does that include the smaller ones at the bottom, or is it simply a branch of some existing survey? What is the situation in the department now since this reorganization has taken place? How many branches did the minister have before, and how does it compare in so far as efficiency is concerned with the former organization? Before the minister answers that may I say I notice on the following page it says, shortly after dealing with the problem of geological survey:
The present top priority objective is to complete the preliminary reconnaissance mapping of Canada. About 2-8 million square miles are unmapped

geologically on even reconnaissance scales and sound long-term plans for national development and more detailed geological work cannot be made effectively until this reconnaissance has been completed.
The figure of 2-8 million square miles is, of course, a substantial mileage when you realize there is a terrific area in the north country, but I wonder how much has been mapped? How much has the department done throughout the years? I should like that information so that we can get some perspective of what is left. The minister says 2-8 million square miles are unmapped geologically on even reconnaissance scales. How much has been properly mapped, how much has been carried on on reconnaissance scales, and how long do the department and the minister think it will take before he will be able to complete this preliminary mapping which certainly is very essential to the geological development of this country? We do know that 228,000 miles were done last year, some of it by the use of helicopters, and I presume in a rather sketchy way, though there was that much progress made last year by one party, and 61,000 square miles were done by another party. Therefore, it is obvious that probably more was done last year than had been done in any preceding year. I would like to have the minister deal with that more fully in view of those comments on pages 13 and 14 of his summary.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, the chart to which my hon. friend refers indicates eight branches of the geological survey. Six of these are scientific groups and the others are supporting groups. Two are really a service division supporting and compiling information the other groups obtain. The hon. member also asked what percentage of Canada has been mapped geologically. The answer is about 30 per cent. He also asks how long it will take to complete it. Is is very difficult to say. We are by the new methods, by the use of helicopters, speeding up the work. As I said in my statement yesterday, we are now able to do in one year what we would take 25 years to do by the conventional ground parties. I would guess it would take another couple of decades to complete the preliminary geological reconnaissances, and it is certain that the geological survey will have plenty of work to do for the next 100 years.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Can the minister tell us whether any reports have been issued as a result of the surveys made, or have any other steps been taken to make available the information secured to those who might be interested in it or could make use of it? I have in mind particularly quite a comprehensive report on the oil and gas resources
6. 1956	5727
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys of the dominion which was issued a number of years ago by the department, and I was wondering whether anything of the same type had been issued recently, or particularly as a result of the last two years' surveys?


George Prudham: The department issues
topical reports every year on oil and gas. We do try to keep up to date with the reports, particularly those that are of major interest. If my hon. friend would like to be put on the mailing list it could be arranged. Perhaps he would like to pay attention to these cards that come from the queen's printer from time to time; I think he would find a complete list of the reports.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The cards referred to, Mr. Chairman, are chiefly concerned with maps.


George Prudham: No.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I receive those cards indicating what maps are being put out but the thing that strikes me is this. There is no use of the department securing a great deal of geological information and then sitting on it. If it is going to be of any use to the country it is necessary for that information to get into the hands of the people who can make use of it, the people engaged in the various mining industries, prospecting and things of that nature. I think it is important that the department should disseminate the information it secures and put it into the hands of people who can make use of it as a result of which new wealth may be developed in the country.
The particular report to which I referred was a splendid one and served a useful purpose but it is the only comprehensive report concerning information secured by the geological surveys branch which I know of having been issued and that is why I asked if any other reports of this nature had been issued. I take it from what the minister said there have not been and I think it would be highly desirable if much more were done along this line in order that this information may be disseminated to interested people.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend has made a good suggestion but actually that is being done. We have an item in our estimates for $216,000 for the publishing of reports and they are distributed through the queen's printer as well as by our own department.
I have here two postcards prepared by our department and sent out to our mailing list and they are usually recorded in the mining journals. Here is one which reads:
Advance Notice-Aeromagnetic Series-Scale 1 inch to 1 mile.
Geophysics Paper, Advance Edition, Cracking-stone, Saskatchewan.
5728	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Geophysics Paper, Advance Edition, Forget Lake, Saskatchewan.
Geophysics Paper, Advance Edition, Goldfields, Saskatchewan.
These papers will be released on above date, and may be obtained in person or by written application to Room 308, National Museum Building, McLeod Street, Ottawa.
I have another postcard which reads:
Recent Publications of the Geological Survey of Canada-March 12, 1956.
National advisory committee on research in the geological sciences. Fifth annual report 1954-55, (including survey of current research in the geological sciences in Canada 1954-55). Price 50 cents.
Geophysics paper; aeromagnetic map, Puddle Pond, Newfoundland.
Geophysics paper; aeromagnetic map, Harrys River, Newfoundland.
Geophysics paper, aeromagnetic map, Serpentine, Newfoundland.
Renfrew and Lanark counties, Ontario,-map.
And so on. These postcards are issued regularly as reports are ready for publication and anyone interested would be very well advised to keep in touch with our department. I do know that several of the major discoveries that have been made in recent years have been based on reports issued by this department, some of them going back 15, 20 or more years.
I have here the report of the special committee on research, minutes of proceedings and evidence No. 10, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. This is dated June 7, 1956 and I would like to read one extract from the evidence presented by Mr. W. J. Bennett on the subject of raw materials. On page 329 of the report I find the following:
First, it is necessary to find economic deposits of uranium. Here, the geological reports and maps which are prepared by the geological survey of Canada are of inestimable value in determining what areas are favourable to the deposition of uranium. It is significant, I think that the discoveries made in the four main uranium-producing areas-Great Bear Lake, the east end of Lake Athabasca, Blind River and Bancroft, all resulted from reports prepared by the geological survey.


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, I notice in the details of this item on page 293 there is an item of $18,000 for printing maps. Do I understand that is a sort of bookkeeping entry within the department so the expenditure will be shown against the proper branch, or am I to understand the geological survey gets maps of its own printed by outside contractors or by the queen's printer directly? What is the position there?


George Prudham: The geological survey publishes its own maps through the map reproduction division with the exception, as I said, of complicated colour maps which are farmed out through the queen's printer by private contract. This year the estimated amount for this outside contracting is $18,000.


John Angus MacLean: The minister gave us some very interesting information on the efficiency of surveys made by the use of helicopters and aircraft as compared with having to go into difficult terrain by some other means. I notice in the breakdown that under the item "chartered aircraft" this item is down from $330,000 to $85,000. Would the minister give an explanation of that and also would he give the names of the contractors concerned if it is not an extremely long list? I should also like to know whether this work is let by tender or by an agreement of some other sort?


George Prudham: The reason the amount is down is that we had a very expensive operation in the Queen Elizabeth islands last year.
I have here the list of contracts for last year. It is quite lengthy but if my hon. friend would care to have me do so I could read it.
We do call for tenders but the work is allotted on the basis of the ability of the contractor and at the rates prescribed by the air transport board.
The list of contracts is as follows:
Superior Airways Limited, Fort William, $17,500.
Whitehorse Flying Services Limited, $35,000.
Boreal Airways Limited, St. Felicien, Quebec, $30,000.
Pacific Western Airlines Limited, Vancouver, $18,600.
Associated Helicopters Limited, Edmonton, $101,200.
Spartan Air Services Limited, Ottawa, $140,000.
Okanagan Helicopters Limited, Vancouver, $203,000.
Arctic Wings Limited, Ottawa, $30,475.
Spartan Air Services Limited, $93,500.
Spartan Air Services Limited, Ottawa. $104,000.


John Angus MacLean: I have a further question but I am not quite sure that this is the right item under which to ask it. I think perhaps it might be better asked under the item concerning the observatory but if I am on the wrong item perhaps the minister would sort of take my question as notice and answer it at the proper time.
I notice in the summary of activities for 1955 in the introduction there is a paragraph which says that preparations were begun for Canada's participation in the international geophysical year 1957-58 and I wonder if the minister at the appropriate time would make some comment concerning what plans exist regarding Canada's contribution to this international effort?


George Prudham: Under the observatory.


George Clyde Nowlan: There is a grant of $40,000 in aid of geological research in Canadian universities and I should like to have a breakdown of that. Is the grant given to the universities themselves or is it in the

form of scholarships? How does this amount compare with what was paid out last year?


George Prudham: The amount is under review by the national advisory council and we have not yet received the allocations. There are representatives of the department, of the universities, of the provincial governments and of industry on that body. The amount spent last year was between $23,000 and $24,000.


George Clyde Nowlan: How was that paid out last year?


George Prudham: I am sorry, I have not that information here but I can send it to my hon. friend. I understand that these amounts are allocated to universities for special projects rather than trying to make a uniform distribution. A university willing to undertake a certain project will receive consideration.


George Clyde Nowlan: I presume the minister will have this information available in his office and perhaps we could have it some time after the luncheon recess as I do not think we will be through the departmental items before one o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch-
224. Mines branch administration, $95,968.
George Clyde Nowlan: I did not hear the minister's opening statement yesterday and therefore do not know what he may have said about administration. My Hansard for yesterday has not yet come to hand. I understand that the deputy minister is on leave and I should like to know just what is the situation. There are a director of the mines branch, a director of geological surveys and other directors of other branches in the department. How are they correlated in so far as general administration is concerned? Are these directors working under the direction of the deputy minister, and if the deputy minister has not returned, when will he be back and what is proposed to be done in that connection?


George Prudham: I made a statement on that last night and perhaps my hon. friend could consult Hansard.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
227. To provide for payment to McGill University in connection with the development of a coal-fired gas turbine, $50,000.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Could the minister give us an outline of the more recent developments in connection with the research being carried on by McGill University in an effort to develop a practical coal-fired gas turbine. This is a matter of extreme importance because it is possible that the future of a good deal of
6, 1956	5729
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys our coal industry depends upon the development of a successful turbine of this kind which would provide a market for much of the coal which has been lost through the use of fuel oil in locomotives. This project has been going on for seven or eight years and I do not think we have had any information for the past two or three years as to how close to success it is. I believe a coal-fired turbine was produced as far back as four or five years but there were a number of bugs which had to be ironed out and also the question of producing it in a size which could be used in a locomotive.


George Prudham: The matter is still in the experimental stage, but Professor Mordell is quite optimistic. He has obtained some fundamental and valuable information from the experiments which have been carried on so far. They have had many difficulties. As I stated in my introductory remarks, they had to make revisions in the heat exchanger and the combustion chamber and so on, but recently they had some success in the continuous operation of the turbine. I received a letter the other day from Professor Mordell saying that they had had a long uninterrupted run. It is necessary to have a large number of hours of continuous operation in order to evaluate fuel savings and economy of operation.
It is proposed to have a symposium this fall of all interested parties in order to make a study of the results obtained to date. I would not like to hazard an opinion as to what the report will be although, as I say, Professor Mordell is quite optimistic. Not being a scientist I have to take his word for it. Certainly they are making an all-out effort to attain success. It took some 50 years to develop the diesel engine to its present stage of perfection, and considering the length of time that this experiment has been under way I think they are making good progress.
It remains to be seen whether it will be of value to the coal industry. Professor Mordell estimates that the fuel saving on a locomotive will be between $20,000 and $50,000 a year, but that remains to be proved. Theoretically that is the possible saving. They are considering the possible application to locomotives as well as to stationary engines for power development purposes. The latest letter I received from Professor Mordell indicates that they will be soon far enough along and have enough information to proceed with the development of a stationary power unit. It is hoped that the symposium will bring out sufficient facts to interest private enterprise in continuing with the development of an engine.
5730	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Douglas Scott Harkness: Is there just the one experimental model and is there a model which would be suitable for use in a locomotive?


George Prudham: There is only the one model, which is quite cumbersome, but the principles they have evolved and the information they have obtained could be applied eventually to a smaller model.


Douglas Scott Harkness: That was the point I had in mind and I think that was the general information we obtained some years ago. I was wondering whether anything had been done in the way of constructing a smaller model which might be adapted to use in a locomotive or in a small power plant. Has anything along that line been done so far?


George Prudham: No.


Mr. Johnston (Bow River):: I should like to ask the minister a supplementary question along that line. Possibly he can inform the house whether or not there is an experimental coal flred gas turbine engine in operation in the United States. I understand there is one already installed in a railway engine which is operating. It is true that it is in the experimental stage but they actually have one on the road. Can the minister tell us what progress has been made over there in this type of development and if our engineers here are working in co-operation with those in the United States along the same line?


George Prudham: Professor Mordell and his associates are very well informed about what is taking place in the United States, Great Britain and other parts of the world. I understand that their experiment has an entirely different approach from that being used in other countries. I understand that in other countries they are driving the hot gases from the combustion of the coal directly through the turbine whereas here they are using heat exchangers which will prevent the fly ash from going directly into the turbine and wearing out or corroding the blades of the turbine. They think this is a decidedly better approach and, if successful, will be superior to anything being developed elsewhere.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, as the minister will remember, I have spoken on this item in other years, and I do think that if there is one place where the department is open to more criticism than others it is in connection with this particular item. As the hon. member for Calgary North said a few moments ago, we have had this item in the estimates now for many years, six or seven years, I think, since we started voting money towards the development of this engine.
I remember that last year the member for Cape Breton South practically stated that in


his opinion it was a fruitless effort and that the development had been so disappointing that nothing more should be expected of it. However, as the minister says, Professor Mordell is very optimistic. Nevertheless, I do not think it is any answer at all for the minister to say that after all it took 10, 15 or 20 years to develop the diesel engine. There was not the great pressure to come ahead with that production because it was at least in competition with existing motive power.
If 50 per cent of the hopes of the people who are close to this project could be realized, it would make the most profound difference to the coal industry of anything that could be accomplished in this country. Whether Professor Mordell is right or not I do not know. As the minister says, he is not a scientist and certainly I am not, but my quarrel is that we have not gone far enough in dealing with this matter one way or the other. Surely we should have had the answers before this. I am not criticizing Professor Mordell at all. I think he has done a wonderful job.
But this matter has been approached from the viewpoint of an experimental project in a university laboratory. That is virtually the approach to it. It is an interesting problem. Let us give them some money and see what they can do with it. I do think, in fairness to the minister, that probably there has not been any great emphasis by Professor Mordell on getting more money. As I said, it has been a matter of a scientific, intellectual experiment which has great possibilities, but let us not disturb the serenity of the laboratory. In the meantime the coal industry is threatened with extinction.
We know that tremendous developments took place during the war in the production of airplanes within a period of months because the resources of the nation were turned loose, bottlenecks were overcome, bugs, to use somebody's expression, were taken out, and you had the project completed. This engine, according to the minister's summary, ran for 300 hours last year. There is some achievement in getting an engine that ran for 300 hours. However, apparently there is trouble with the ash blast, there is some corrosion and there are other problems such as that to be solved.
But Professor Mordell says that this engine is going to be so far ahead of the diesel when he gets it completed that diesels are going to be almost outmoded. I suggested last year that it was most unfortunate that the railways had proceeded so quickly with dieseli-zation when this engine was still in the experimental stage and might even be at the practical stage. I have a statement here

from the press of last summer in which Professor Mordell said that this engine would reduce costs and would be far more efficient than the diesel engine. Mr. Lionel Forsyth, president of Dosco, made this statement:
I believe that the only way to find out whether it is the real answer to the motive problem is to build it, and try it on the rails.
He went on to say that if they wanted to they could have done that that year, in 1955. Well, this year we are voting $50,000 towards the project compared with $110,000 the year before. We either should not be voting a cent or we should be voting enough to clean it up and get it over with. Let us stop this horsing around with this thing. Nothing has been more poorly handled than this particular project which offers such tremendous possibilities to eastern Canada, Alberta and other sections which are interested in coal. We do not know yet whether or not it is going to work but here you have the president of Dosco saying, "Put it on the rails and try it out." Here you have the man to whom we have been paying the money, a man in whom we apparently have confidence, the man who has done a great deal in developing it, one of Canada's eminent scientists, saying that it is the most superior form of motive power yet developed and that it is going to be the solution to the problem of the coal industry and everything else.
Perhaps we are holding it back deliberately until all the diesels become outmoded so that the C.N.R. and the C.P.R. will not have to write them off too quickly. There must be some explanation for the delay. The hon. member for Bow River referred to another experiment a few moments ago. My information, and frankly I get it from the general manager in Dosco in Cape Breton, is that in Great Britain they have an engine, perhaps produced by a different approach-


Mr. Gillis:: They had one 50 years ago and 30 years ago in the United States.


George Clyde Nowlan: -and they have one in the United States. They are convinced they have solved the problem. Whether we have made the right approach I do not know. The minister says our approach is better. I hope that is so, but let us stop approaching and let us get there because there is something radically wrong with our approach when something so vital to the country as this is has been allowed to dilly-dally as long as it has. We see now that this year the proposed expenditure is reduced by 50 per cent. I am not urging increased expenditures on an over-all basis or anything of that kind, but I do say that either this expenditure should be cut out entirely or we should put
6, 1956	5731
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys all our resources back of it and get it over with. I suggest, with all due respect to Professor Mordell, that we take the experiment out of the university laboratory. Let us get some commercial engineering firm and give them a contract so that with Professor Mordell's assistance and with all the money necessary they may try it out and bring it to a conclusion one way or the other so that we will know whether we have something here that may be of tremendous importance both to our transportation systems, because they need efficient transportation, and also to the coal industry.
I hope that the minister will reconsider this matter and will put his emphasis behind it. I am quite sure that this committee and parliament will be very glad to vote additional moneys if they are necessary, and they obviously are. The amount of $50,000 is not going to finish the project in any way, shape or form. Let us get behind it and get it settled one way or the other this year.


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Chairman, I only rise at this time because the member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings paraphrased rather badly what I had to say last year. Four years ago I went down and had a look at the experiment. The minister was good enough to organize a delegation of members to go down and have a look at it. I was interested in it because the press, in my judgment a bad source of information, were playing up this experiment as the solution of the problem of the coal industry of Canada. It was the miracle that was going to put coal in competition with natural gas, oil and all the rest of it. It was going to revolutionize our transportation system, particularly the railways. I wanted to go down and look at this thing because I had heard a lot of talk about it and had read about it. So along with the minister and members of the House of Commons I went down and looked it over. The coal-fired gas turbine engine is not a new thing. They had that type of engine 50 years ago in a locomotive in Britain but it did not work. They had it 30 years ago in the United States and it did not work. The difficulty always has been to find a cooling system that will prevent the burning off of the blades of the engine. They could not find a solution and they abandoned the idea a long time ago. What Professor Mordell is working on now is not a new type of engine. What he is trying to find is a cooling system that will enable the blades of the engine to stand up to the terrific heat.
At the time when I came back I did not say what was put on the record by the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings. I said that as far as that engine going to save the
5732	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys coal industry was concerned, it was at least 10 years away from any commercial use. I might say that in discussing this matter with the president of the C.N.R. in committee on several occasions, I made that statement and he said that in his judgment I was a realist, that it was not going to perform overnight the miracles that the press would lead you to believe. My concern was that I wanted something done to assist the coal industry rather than pin our hopes on something that might or might not help. It certainly would not solve the problem. At far as saving Alberta's coal industry is concerned, there is not any to save. It is fairly well gone. That is equally true of the British Columbia industry. Those industries are gone. The coal industry is gone in the west but it has been replaced by oil and gas. Quite a chunk of the Nova Scotia industry is also gone beyond repair. The thing we want to understand is that we do not want to keep on having false hopes on the question of saving the coal industry.
I went into this question fully last night and I expressed the opinion that the C.N.R. and the C.P.R. are dieselizing the railways from coast to coast. They are making an investment that it will take at least 10 years to write off. At the present time they are dieselizing the railways in Newfoundland. That is their program and they are going ahead with it.
It was stated on several occasions that this engine is interchangeable with the present diesel units, and that you could instal this type of engine with the present diesel unit. You cannot do that. I found that out fairly definitely. I also found out that before they can adapt that engine to a locomotive, the C.N.R. will have to send in some of their engineers and technicians to work on that experiment and build a locomotive to which that type of engine is adaptable. What does that add up to? First, you must get the C.N.R. interested to the point where they are going to come in and work on it.
With respect to asking the minister to solve the problem, may I say that he is not an engineer. He knows about as much about it as I do. He had a look at it, and you are obliged to depend on what people tell you. But if there is a solution for the coal industry in this particular experiment, why is not the coal industry sufficiently interested? The hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings says the president of the coal company, Mr. Forsyth, said: Get it on the rails and get it running. If it means that much to that corporation, why are they not contributing to the experiment? Why have they not some engineers working on it? They have engineers, and good ones. Why are they not
[Mr. Gillis.l

putting some money into the thing? If that industry is going to benefit to the extent suggested by the press and others, then they should be "in there pitching" and trying to find a solution.
As I said last night, I do not believe in keeping my head in the sand. I want to get done for the industry something that is going to mean something to it. I said last night that in my judgment, after looking at the engine, I figured that it would perhaps be an excellent marine engine if they can find what Professor Mordell is looking for, or it would be an excellent engine by means of which to generate power for small power plants. But even if it were installed on the C.N.R., if it were to perform so as to affect the economies in fuel which they say it will effect, it is not going to use much coal, and it still is not much of a solution for the coal industry.
I do not know what is going on in the United States although I have seen some reports in the press. But if they have perfected that engine to the point where they can operate it in a locomotive, why are we wasting time in searching? Why do we not get the information from there and put it to use instead of spending money on an experiment of our own? I think that would be the logical thing to do. However, as I said, I do not know any more than what I have seen in the press as to what is going on in the United States. Nevertheless, I know this. Unless there is a big development in thermal power-and I think that is one of the solutions for the coal industry-there is not much hope.
I have never objected to this grant. We have spent $650,000 so far on the experiment. I have said right along that it is justified on the ground of being a grant to McGill University so as to enable engineering students to sit in there and study and work on that proposition. There were quite a few of them around there the day we were looking at it.
I think it would not be a bad idea if the minister had another pilgrimage and took down there a group of members from this house who are interested and had another look at it, talked to Professor Mordell and found out from him directly when this engine might be of some commercial use, and what the possibilities are of getting the co-operation of the C.N.R. and of industry that is going to benefit financially and from an engineering standpoint. With the interest that has now been created, I think another trip down there would result in bringing back to this house some concrete information that would prevent in the future any speculation or the posing of hypothetical questions that cannot be answered.


Mr. Byrne:: Mr. Chairman, I have left the matter of the coal industry to this very item. I know it certainly is not the solution to the condition in which the coal industry finds itself today. However, it is a program which, if successful, anticipates the large consumption of coal. I cannot agree with the hon. member for Cape Breton South that an embargo on coal is the solution. In western Canada, particularly in British Columbia, we have in the United States a large market for coal and coal products. Our coke and other by-products of coal are being shipped in large quantities to the western states. Then again much of the other product of the mining industry finds a market in the United States. If an embargo were to be imposed on coal in eastern Canada, it follows that there would be some sanctions against our products in western Canada.
I have been interested in this Mordell experiment since first coming to Ottawa in 1949 and I have followed it fairly closely. I believe the problem now is that in the heat exchangers corrosion is taking place owing to sulphur in the fuel itself. It is not a serious problem and it is different entirely from that suggested by the hon. member for Cape Breton South in that it is not corrosion of the blades of the turbine. There is no corrosion to the blades as the gas flowing through the turbine is pure air. The heat exchanger through which the burning gas is driven certainly is the place that takes the strain from the burning of the gases. When it has been determined that a proper alloy can be fabricated for the lining of the tubes in the heat exchanger, I believe the problem will be pretty well solved.
One only has to stand opposite or ride in an aeroplane such as the North Star to realize the wear and tear from vibration that is the consequence of that type of motor. Then, if one rides in a Viscount, which has a turbine type of motor, one realizes the very great advantage of the turbine engine for this use or any other. Even now the railroads are finding the maintenance of diesel locomotives quite a large factor in their operating costs. I understand that they are having considerable difficulty with the pistons. Anyone who knows anything about mechanics realizes that the very high compression, which is part of diesel locomotion, results in a great deal of wear and tear and vibration which is not one of the factors of a turbine motor. In every respect, therefore, the turbine is a much more efficient operation.
I believe that we are overlooking a particularly significant development here and that we should put more money not only into the development of the coal-fired gas turbine, 67509-364
6, 1956	5733
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys but in the processing of coal for other purposes. Sitting on the research committee for this past session, I have found that we are spending many millions of dollars in research into other aspects of industry. Specifically, we are spending millions of dollars for the development of atomic energy for peaceful purposes. I think that other plans and developments are being dwarfed by this great desire to rush into the development of atomic energy, while we are allowing other more simplified fuel elements to go by the board. The fuel element in an atomic reactor is a very expensive product. It requires large mining operations, great milling operations, and then the cost only begins to materialize after having gone through those processes. Coal may be obtained on the surface in many places in Canada simply by going in with great shovels and stripping the overburden. Coal has been the lifeblood of the nation for many years, and may well be in the future. We know that we have coal reserves for up to a thousand years at the present rate of consumption.
It is, therefore, my belief that having regard to all those factors and the particular benefits of turbine motors as opposed to internal combustion motors, the coal industry itself and the people who work in that industry, instead of voting $50,000 this year we should be voting something over a million dollars. Apparently, this $50,000 is all that is required at the present time to complete this very limited experiment that is taking place at McGill University. When one visits the installation there one has the feeling that they are actually hampered, in a sense, by the lack of interest and the inadequacy of funds which are provided for this purpose. They go for many months unable to carry out a certain experiment because some particular plant does not seem able to supply them with the necessary implements. It seems to me we are not providing sufficient funds for the experiment itself. I feel that we should appropriate more money for this particular experiment, and certainly for other experiments in the use of coal.


George Prudham: Before the committee rises, 1 wonder if I might be permitted to supply the information requested by the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings, and give the names of universities receiving grants in connection with the geological sciences. The University of Alberta received $750. The applicant was Dr. R. E. Folinsbee. There was also another $1,000 granted in connection with the growth of silicates under low temperature and pressure and temperature conditions. The applicant was Dr. J. D. Godfrey. Then there was $400 for chemical analysis of clay fractions of marine and non-marine cretaceous shales. The applicant was Dr. C. P. Gravenor.

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys The University of British Columbia received a grant of $960 in connection with the weathering of ores under surface and underground conditions. The applicant was Dr. H. C. Gunning. There was a $1400 item biogeochemistry of cobalt and nickel, and the applicant was Dr. H. V. Warren. The University of Manitoba received $2,200 in connection with the analysis of rocks by induced radioactivity. The applicants were Drs. G. M. Brownell and H. D. B. Wilson. McGill University received $3,400 in connection with silicate and sulphide phase relationships. The applicants were Drs. J. E. Gill, V. A. Saull and E. H. Kranck. There was another $250 in connection with enthalpy changes in metamorphism, and the applicant was Dr. V. A. Saull. McMaster University received $800 in connection with geochemical studies of metamorphic rocks and minerals. The applicant was Dr. D. M. Shaw. Queen's University received $2,700 in connection with spectrographic methods of analysis of minerals, rocks and ores. The applicant was Dr. J. E. Hawley. There was another $3,000 in connection with X-ray spectrographic analysis of minerals, and the applicant was Dr. L. G. Berry. The University of Toronto received $5,392 in connection with geological age determinations. The applicant was Dr. J. T. Wilson. The University of Western Ontario received $1,000 in connection with the study of pleistocene stratigraphy along lakes Huron and Erie. The applicants were Dr. G. H. Reavely and A. Dreimanis. Then there was another $900 in connection with scale model experiments of airborne electro-magnetic prospecting. The applicant was Dr. R. J. Uffen.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
The Deputy Chairman:: Order. Item No. 227.


Mr. Blackmore:: Mr. Chairman, before this item carries I would just like to remind the minister that the constituency I have the honour to represent in this house is an important coal-producing constituency, and that the coal mines in that area are in a very depressed condition. I would ask him to be sure to do all he possibly can to find out what can be done, if anything can be done, to alleviate the condition of the coal areas.


George Clyde Nowlan: Is the minister going to say anything further on this matter? As I understand the discussion which has taken place so far, the suggestion is the problem is one of mastering the heat which is generated by
[Mr. Prudham.l
this engine, and that that is perhaps the most difficult problem with which the department is confronted. It does seem to me the same problem has been met in other industries. One can think of the aircraft industry, for instance, where the heat problem must be as great as in this one. We read today of experiments being carried out with guided missiles where the heat factor caused by friction is the greatest problem confronting the engineers, and they are attempting to meet that. According to the press, the United States government at the moment is carrying out experiments to send a satellite planet drifting around and around in the atmosphere, and one which can survive all of the heat tension to which it will be subjected. It would seem that if there is sufficient concentration of effort placed upon this problem from a technical and scientific point of view, the difficulty will be solved in the relatively near future.
The criticism which was expressed this morning was based on the minister not spending enough money on it rather than the criticism we sometimes hear that he is spending too much. He should give some explanation as to why the expenditure is being reduced this year instead of being augmented so that this matter may be brought to finality one way or another in the near future.


George Prudham: The hon. member was not here yesterday. Perhaps he does not know that the Minister of Finance has also asked for a supplementary estimate of $50,000 for this project which will carry the program through until the end of this year. This project has never been held up for want of money. Professor Mordell would be the first to tell him that.
The hon. member has mentioned the difficulties they have with the heat exchanger. One of the problems was to find a metal or an alloy that would resist the corrosion from the sulphur in the coal and other chemical reactions. They built a heat exchanger using several different metals in order to find out which metal resisted the corrosion and would be suitable for continuous operation. They have now reached conclusions in that regard. They know the metals, or at least they have decided on one that seems to stand up, and when the new heat exchanger is built, when a locomotive or some other type of plant is built, they have information that will be of value. I do not think that the experiment has reached the stage yet-perhaps they are nearing it- where a larger expenditure would be warranted. They have to proceed slowly and accumulate information as they go along.

I am sure they could not have been pushed faster than they have been up to the present time. After the meeting this fall, which they propose to hold, there may be enough information to justify an all-out effort to start the practical application of the experiment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
228. Geographical branch-administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $250 to the Canadian association of geographers, $283,386.
George Clyde Nowlan: Item 228 has to do with the geographical branch, Mr. Chairman. I think it is under this branch that the atlas of Canada-I think that is the name of it-is being prepared. It was obvious yesterday from the minister's statement-as a matter of fact he admitted it-that he was disappointed in the progress which has been made on this atlas heretofore. It will be remembered that he discussed it a year ago and at that time told us he hoped it would be prepared within a year. Another year goes by and he says it will be at least one more year before the atlas can be brought to completion. The committee should get more information with respect to this, Mr. Chairman. I am not sure how long this atlas has been in the course of preparation. The minister refers to it at page 109 of the annual report of the department. It is indicated there that it is a most comprehensive document. It deals with mammals, plants, birds and fish, and all the natural resources of Canada, population statistics, and so forth, in addition to the usual material which is found in an atlas. I believe this was first conceived, thought of or suggested by the late prime minister, Mr. Mackenzie King, when he was prime minister, and it has been in the course of preparation for some years. The minister should tell us how long it has been in course of preparation, what it has cost us to date, who is in charge of it and when he thinks it will be completed. You can see by reading between the lines, Mr. Chairman, that many of the charts which have been prepared up to now must be out of date by this time, and if we keep on waiting to get it finalized we shall never get this book into production because when the final charts are completed the first ones will be out of date, and the book will be useless. Apparently, it is a mammoth production which they have in mind and not too much progress has been made. From the reports and suggestions heard in the city of Ottawa this is one matter on which there has been a great deal more confusion than accomplishment. The minister should give us some concrete information with respect to this matter before the item passes.
67509-364J
6, 1956	5735
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, very briefly I want to support the remarks made yesterday by the hon. member for Yukon concerning the good work being done by the Canadian geographical society. I am not going to repeat the excellent review and plea he made, but I do want to emphasize the interests of a good many of our members in the work of this organization, particularly in its publication of the Canadian Geographical Journal, the publication of booklets on provincial aspects of development and publications concerning industrial development and also the publication of that excellent book, Image of Canada, which I think does great credit to those who are responsible for its publication, and also for the carrying of the lectures which were commenced by Mr. Francis Younghusband, I think, in 1930. As a matter of fact I had a chap working for me once who was on that expedition. It was a most interesting expedition. I might also refer to the good work done by the. society in granting scholarships in geography and the limited support, but to the extent, of their financial ability, to the Baffin Land-expedition of 1950 and 1953 and the support of the investigation of the Churchill region, and last but not least, the excellent sponsoring of certain documentary films. These activities are performing a great service for Canada which I think should be recognized in this committee.
In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, the devotion and voluntary effort of those who have guided this society in the past and are guiding it today-and it has some excellent heads- warrants the support of every member in this house as a representative of the people. I think all of us who recognize this good work and all who are interested in this country should do what we can, each in his own way, to support the work of this society. I think that should also be the attitude of the Canadian people generally. They could assist very greatly by subscribing in larger numbers to the journal, by universities subscribing, and libraries, high schools, public schools, community organizations and service clubs. I think the society would be greatly helped in its finances if all these people would take an interest in it and chip in their little bit. I think the government could assist, where proper and possible, through its publications by bringing the attention of the Canadian public to the good work that is being undertaken by the Canadian geographical society.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the atlas there is a very precise statement

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys in our annual report and I think perhaps I should put that on the record:
Because of the increased attention to other projects less headway than was hoped for was made toward completion of the atlas of Canada. Data for the plates dealing with ranges of plants (other than trees), principal mammals, birds and fish, profiles of major rivers, and population origin and citizenship were received from the contributing departments,-
That is, other departments of government.
-and preliminary compilation was started. Preliminary compilation was completed for 23 plates in the agricultural section; and of the plates dealing with types of settlement, land use and functional plans of major cities, and population distribution. Detailed specifications for 5 base maps were completed. Final draughting of the 1:10,000,000, 1:20,000,000 and 1:50,000,000 base maps was completed and stocks of blue line prints were delivered. Final draughting of the remaining bases and five of the plates in the historical section was commenced.
I have a more recent report here which indicates that six plates were printed, five are in the proof stage, five in the photographic colour stage and eight in addition are now in the hands of the printers. This applies only to the English edition and nothing has been done on the French edition as yet. Information has been received from all other departments of government. There will be over 100 plates in all and the information for those plates is mostly at hand and is gradually being compiled for reproduction.
As the statement says, other projects have come up which seemed to have greater priority. One was the survey of the population and industry in the area affected by the St. Lawrence seaway development. The department did a great deal of work there for the Ontario hydro and the Ontario government and, as I mentioned yesterday, it has done a great deal of work for civil defence for the Department of National Health and Welfare. These projects have been of urgent importance and required immediate attention and consequently the work on the atlas has lagged. We hope to speed it up this year and I sincerely hope we will have a better report on progress next year.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could answer these questions: When was this project first started? How long has it been in process? How many people are employed in this work; that is, how many officials of the department? Who under the minister is responsible for it and what has it cost approximately to date?


George Prudham: It is very difficult to separate the cost from the other costs of the branch. We do know there are seven or eight people working full time and many others are working part time on this project. The man in charge of the division at this
(Mr. Prudham.l
time is Mr. Nicholson. Dr. Watson, the former head of the division, left us a year or so ago to take other employment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
232. To provide for purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, including purchases of equipment, $1,500,000.
Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman, before this item passes there are one or two comments I wish to make, and while the matter I wish to mention does not come under this particular item I do not know where else I could bring it in because it is not included in any other part of the estimates. What I want to ask the minister about is the research with regard to the extraction of oil from the Athabasca tar sands.
During the last war the federal government took a keen interest in trying to develop a process whereby this oil could be extracted from the sands. As the minister knows, this is one of the largest oil deposits in the world. I think the estimate is about 200 billion barrels. In view of the fact that the British empire would be in a very precarious position in the event of another war because of oil supplies, it seems to me we should be making some effort during this period of peace to develop a process that would extract the oil from the tar sands.
Even today, Mr. Chairman, we find that the British particularly are in a rather embarrassing position with regard to the oil which they secured from Iraq and Iran and other Persian gulf areas. It could happen in the event of war that we in this country would also find ourselves in an exceedingly embarrassing position so far as oil supplies are concerned if something is not done.
I know that in the west we have been doing a tremendous amount of development in the drilling of oil wells and we are producing a rather large quantity of oil and I suppose that amount will be increased as time goes on; but I doubt very much that we will ever get to the point in western Canada where we could supply from drilled wells all of the needs of Canada and the North American continent in the event of an emergency, although we could do that very easily if we developed the proper method of extracting oil from the Athabasca tar sands.
In view of the fact that these tremendous potentialities exist and in view of the fact the federal government itself did quite a good deal of exploratory preparation with regard to the possibility of extracting this oil, I think we should be doing something about it in this peacetime period. I know

the provincial government in Alberta has been making rapid progress in the development of the extraction of oil from the tar sands and I think they are working closely in co-operation with some of the large oil companies. I am well aware of the progress that is being made and I am equally well aware of the tremendous effort they are making to extract the oil from the Athabasca tar sands, but I think there should be some supplementary effort, exploration and possibly scientific development on the part of the federal government in order to still further expedite the extraction of this oil particularly now in peacetime so that we will have it in the event of an emergency should that time ever arise. Could the minister tell us something about that at this time?


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bow River has referred to the problem of extracting oil from the tar sands. Our department is of the opinion that this is not the major problem at the moment. At least two methods have been devised for separating the sand from the oil.
The most important problem seems to be the treatment of the bitumen and the resulting oil which must be treated in order to permit it to flow through a pipe line, and then breaking it down into its various components and removing the sulphur. To that end we are undertaking experiments at the mines branch. It is a high-pressure experiment. Before we embarked on this project we consulted with the United States bureau of mines and it was decided that Canada should undertake the high-pressure treatment experiment and they would undertake the low-pressure.
We have had great difficulty getting high-pressure vessels which are necessary for the experiment. It is only recently that the plants to which we looked for the manufacture of these vessels were able to produce them for us because of orders they had for defence and other reasons. We now have all the high-pressure vessels required and we expect to be able to proceed with the experiment this year.


Charles Edward Johnston: Why is there no item to deal with that? You are showing the amount of money which has been expended and the effort being put forth in regard1 to this. Surely if we are making the effort which the minister has indicated there should be some item here to take care of that and we should be kept up to date on the progress being made. Generally speaking I think the belief is that nothing is being done now, that things are just being left idle. I am glad the minister has been able to tell us that they are still carrying
6, 1956	5737
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys on, but I should like to know to what extent financially we are assisting in this development and just what progress it is expected will be made.


George Prudham: I think the details of that would come under item 225. The actual cost of the equipment being assembled for this experiment has been spread over two or three years and I do not have the total amount expended.


Charles Edward Johnston: What would be an estimate?


George Prudham: We think the equipment would cost about $150,000.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Is the work to which the minister has just referred correlated with work which I understand is being done by the national research council? I remember seeing a couple of years ago a pilot plant which had been set up. Has that work been discontinued or what is the relationship between the activities of the department and those of the national research council?


George Prudham: The work we are undertaking is closely correlated with what has been and is being done by the national research council. Ours is a high-pressure experiment. I am not just sure of the technical terms that should be applied to the work they have been doing, but it is closely correlated.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is that experiment being carried on here in Ottawa?


George Prudham: Yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: Members of parliament could visit the plant if they wanted to see what was going on?


George Prudham: Yes. That is a very good suggestion. If hon. members would like to go out to the mines branch to see the work that is being carried on I am sure they would be welcomed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion coal board-
233. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $116,660.
George Clyde Nowlan: Is the minister going to make a statement with regard to the dominion coal board? It has been the practice in the past to do that. I notice that yesterday he said he preferred not to speak on that in his opening statement.


George Prudham: Before I deal with that, may I reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings with regard to the international geophysical year.
5738	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
The basic purpose of the geophysical year is a study of the earth's upper atmosphere and the manner in which it is influenced by the sun's radiation. Practical applications include radio communications, meteorology, high altitude military projectiles and a better understanding of the earth's immediate environment.
In co-operation with the Department of Transport, national research council and the Department of National Defence, the dominion observatory is equipping and operating ten to fourteen magnetic stations in Canada extending along magnetic meridians from Resolute Bay-latitude approximately 75-to southern Canada. The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is providing the instruments while some of the stations are being manned by other departments. The observations are all to be collected and arrangements made for their analysis and publication by the dominion observatory.
As well as the projects I have mentioned, important additions are being made to our northern seismographic station at Resolute Bay. Systematic observations of sunspots, flares and other disturbances on the sun are being made at Ottawa throughout the geophysical year. In co-operation with the departments I have mentioned, observations are being made of the aurora, the ionosphere and of meteoric phenomena at Ottawa, Agin-court, Meanook, Newbrook, Victoria, Yellowknife, Baker Lake and Resolute Bay.
In presenting the estimates for the operation of the dominion coal board in this fiscal year I am pleased to report that there has been an improvement in the coal situation over the last twelve months.
This improvement is demonstrated in increased production of Canadian coal from
14.770.000	tons in the fiscal year 1954-55 to
15.014.000	tons in the fiscal year just ended; in an increase in the consumption of coal of over 2 million tons and in a reduction of the subvention payments of some $773,171. I may add that this reduction in the amount of assistance did not result from any appreciable decrease in the tonnage of Canadian coal moved under subvention assistance but from the reduced cost of assistance per ton from $3.07 last year to $2.92 in the year just ended.
In the province of Nova Scotia output was down by almost 100,000 tons. This was not due to lack of markets but rather to the closing of a high cost operation. The mechanization of the Sydney collieries began to show concrete results during the year. Cost of production is dropping and the output per man day is slowly climbing upward. During the year a market opened up for Nova Scotia coal in the United Kingdom and the continent.
[Mr. Prudham.l

In the fiscal year some 230,000 tons moved to Britain at a cost in subvention of approximately $494,000 or $2.14 per net ton.
Shipments to Quebec and Ontario were slightly lower than in the previous twelve months but this was due more to difficulties in transportation and delivery than to any lack of markets.
The Nova Scotia producers have been working to develop new methods of burning coal. One new product, the dominion down draft furnace, has received an award of a certificate of merit from the national design centre and is finding an increasing sale in the maritimes. This radically new furnace for household use is at present being offered in Ontario and Quebec and a growing market is hoped for. The Department of National Defence has installed a number of these furnaces in the new Gagetown project where they are being fully tested over a full year's operation. My colleague tells me that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has also been testing out this equipment.
Turning to New Brunswick, the output of coal at 880,000 tons is not only 100,000 tons more than last year but forms an all-time record for the Minto field. Increasing tonnages of this coal are being used for the production of electricity and for industrial use. In Saskatchewan also production of 2,302,000 tons constituted a record. This coal finds a ready and increasing market in the industrial and electrical power fields.
Alberta has been the most depressed section of the Canadian coal industry but this past year has seen at least a slowing up in that trend, although I am not trying to minimize the seriousness of the situation in Alberta. The bituminous mines in this area have been largely dependent on the railway market. The switch to diesel locomotives and to oil burning steam engines continued, causing some further loss of markets. This loss was not nearly as heavy, however, as in the previous year. The cold winter in western Canada, together with the increased wheat traffic, threw a considerable burden upon the railways and the fuel requirements were considerably heavier. Steam locomotives scheduled for retirement were needed for operations and, while locomotive coal consumption was down by some 300,000 tons, the unexpected need for more fuel found the coal stock piles depleted and caused an unexpectedly heavy demand for supply from the mines. The cold weather also increased the demand for household coal and the subbituminous mines have enjoyed a relatively prosperous year. Altogether, Alberta fiscal year production of 4,621,000 tons is somewhat higher than the 4,591,000 tons in the 12 months previous.

Finally, the British Columbia mines show some increase in output from 1,344,000 tons last year to 1,460,000 tons in the 12 months ended March 31, 1956. This increase, however, is due to the improved operations in the Crowsnest pass area while the Vancouver island mines do not show any increase.
The coming year will undoubtedly produce some difficulties. The Alberta bituminous mines will continue to lose more of the railway market while the domestic producers will be affected, of course, by the vagaries of the weather. There will be an increase in the consumption of western coals for power production when new plants now under construction come into operation.
The amount of money required for subvention purposes shows a substantial decrease. The estimated amount of $9,210,250 is $789,750 below the estimate of last year and some $1,356,623 below the actual expenditure of last year. This reduction in amount does not mean any curtailment in the assistance offered to Canadian coal. The amounts provided on specific movements in the various orders in council remain exactly as in the previous year. The subvention payments have always been calculated as the amounts necessary to enable Canadian coals to meet the competitive laid-down costs of imported coals in the designated markets. Over the past 12 months there have been substantial increases in the laid-down costs of imported coals as well as some decreases in the cost of Canadian coals. These mean that, while it required $3.07 per ton to move the subvention coal in 1954-55 and $2.92 in 1955-56, it is estimated that it will require $2.46 per ton to move approximately the same tonnage in 1956-57, assuming that there is a movement of 3,700,000 tons. I am glad to repeat that, while part of this has been due to increased cost of imported coal, a substantial part has also been due to the increasing efficiency of Canadian coal production resulting in lower costs.
It is hoped that the improvement noted in the Nova Scotia coal picture over the last 12 months will continue through the coming year. The hon. member for Cape Breton South has mentioned that they are doing a good job there in lowering their production costs. The increasing effect of mechanization will be reflected by greater efficiency of operation and higher output per man day. That has been the trend in the early part of this year. It is estimated that the amount of money parliament is being asked to provide for subvention assistance and the existing orders in council defining and regulating the payments will enable the Nova Scotia
6, 1956	5739
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys coal mines to find outlets for their production in the year ending March 31, 1957.
I should like to refer to the delivery of coal to Newfoundland, which has been mentioned by some hon. members. There have been recurring difficulties in this delivery arising partly out of the seasonal availability of schooners and in part out of the lesser number of these vessels engaged in the trade. A meeting was held in Sydney in January of this year of those interested in this movement, with the chairman of the dominion coal board in the chair. A very full and detailed review was made of the difficulties and the possible remedies. I understand that as a result there has been a marked improvement in the loading of the vessels and that basic investigations are being carried out by private interests looking towards the development of better means of transportation over the longer term.
Liquid fuels are expected to continue to take over new domestic outlets as well as to win some established customers from coal. There will possibly be some gain to coal from wood consumers but not enough to overcome the loss to other fuels. When we read that there were in Canada in 1951 some 1,436,050 homes in which coal was the principal fuel while in 1955 there were only 1,115,000 in this category, it gives us some picture of the loss. At the same time, oil burning installations increased from 774,535 to 1,656,000 homes.
Of course this is not the whole picture. The demands for coal for industrial use continue to grow and this trend no doubt will continue. While most of this growth is in Ontario and Quebec, where United States coal is the main supply, the growing demand for electricity in the coal-producing provinces is providing an expanding outlet. Reports by the power companies to the dominion bureau of statistics estimate increases in the installation of fuel electric stations in the mari-times from 324,000 kilowatts in 1954 to
513,000	kilowatts in 1958 and in the western provinces from 605,000 in 1954 to 1,058,000 in 1958. This shift in markets, as I remarked on a previous occasion, will create problems for many of the existing producers.
Present reports indicate that the United States coal trade will be hampered by a shortage of cars during the year and that costs will be somewhat higher. This trend should help to provide outlets for Nova Scotia coal but, unfortunately, cannot be of much assistance to western Canada.
The hon. member for Bow River and the hon. member for Macleod have suggested that we should block off a portion of the Canadian market for Canadian coal. It is a very nice idea and I would be all for it if it were possible to do it but I do not think it is.
5740	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys One difficulty is that most of the industrial installations in Ontario are built to burn United States coal and Alberta cannot supply the type that these plants are equipped to burn. Another problem and difficulty in moving western coal in large quantities to industrial Ontario is the fact that as a rule Alberta coal does not store well, and it has to be delivered as it is consumed. That makes it difficult to persuade large industries to put in the necessary equipment and rely entirely on western coal. Actually I think that the solution to the coal problem and the problem of the communities situated in the Crowsnest area and other coal-producing areas in Alberta is to encourage industry to locate in those areas. The provincial government and the federal government should both give all the encouragement possible to the solving of that problem.
I know that the industries, the mine companies concerned, are extremely active in trying to diversify their operations. There is one very healthy coal operation in the Crowsnest pass. They have a diversified operation. They have coke ovens. They have the largest supply of coking coal west of the Mississippi. They have lumbering operations. They are engaged in oil development. Another company is endeavouring to develop base metal deposits in the area. I know they have shipped samples of the ore to Europe for experiments on extraction. Although it is far from proven that they will get good results from their efforts, I know that they are spending a great deal of money and are endeavouring to establish another industry which will provide stability not only for the coal industry itself but for the communities in that area. I believe that is the positive approach. I do not think that putting restrictions on imports is a positive approach to the problem even if it could be carried out under our constitution. The hon. member for Cape Breton South last night I think pointed out that this government has not the power to dictate what type of fuel shall be used in any particular area. If anybody has the power, it is the provincial governments concerned. I do not think that the answer to the coal industry's problem lies in that direction.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, this item of the coal board is one which probably embraces as many people and affects their lives as much as does any other one item in the whole estimates of our parliament. It is a matter on which some of us-and I know I have done so-have spoken at length at other times, and I do not propose to do it now.
The hon. member for Cape Breton South spoke last night with respect to this matter


and of course he represents thousands of people who are employed in this industry and who are directly affected by it. In order to show its ramifications I need only say that in my own constituency, which is removed some considerable distance from the actual coal fields themselves, we too are greatly affected by this matter because it is one of the principal markets for agricultural products in the maritime provinces. As the coal industry prospers and develops, so do the farmers of the Annapolis valley, and of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island generally. As the coal miners suffer depression, so do our farmers suffer from loss of markets and reduced prices. They are perhaps not as directly affected by it but they are affected by it and to the same degree as are the people living within a few miles of the coal mines themselves. That is why this is an item which is important to all of us, because I am sure the same situation applies in the province of Alberta and in the province of British Columbia or wherever else coal may be mined. It is not only the miners themselves but those in the other associated industries who are affected by the large number of people who at one time were employed in this industry and who unfortunately have suffered from greatly reduced employment during the past few years.
I am not one who wants to cry blue ruin over this matter. I remember that this is not the first time the coal industry has suffered a marked depression. I am sure the hon. member for Cape Breton South and I myself remember the situation 25 years ago when, in the island of Cape Breton, there was mass unemployment, there were labour difficulties and there was actual starvation and it looked as though the coal industry was through. People said that the coal industry could never recover from the depression of those days. Yet a marked recovery was obtained. The government of R. B. Bennett, working in co-operation with the provincial government of Nova Scotia, by increasing subventions and carrying out an aggressive marketing policy, went a long way towards restoring prosperity in the mining areas of Cape Breton and therefore of Nova Scotia generally.
Then again during the last few years we have been faced with technological changes which have threatened the very existence of this industry once more. A few moments ago the minister pointed out the greatly reduced sale for coal because of the dieselization of the railways. In 1953 or 1954 the Canadian National Railways purchased 700,000 tons of coal. Some people suggest that by 1957 or 1958 these purchases will have virtually disappeared. The St. Lawrence basin, which
;uly
at one time presented and offered a great market for Nova Scotia coal, is threatened by the development of the St. Lawrence seaway and the prospect of American coal being brought down by water carrier into that area. Then there is the development of the gas industry which also is going to cut substantially into the market for coal.
I was interested in what the minister said about the development of this domestic furnace to which he referred and in connection with which he said a citation had been awarded to the company for producing it. I think this could be said, perhaps not in criticism but as a statement of fact, and I think the coal operators will be the first ones to admit it. In the days gone by they did not worry too much about marketing. Certainly they did not worry at all about the domestic consumer. They had the demands of the railways. They had the demands of heavy industry. They would meet your orders if they saw fit to do so but the local customer, the domestic consumer, was the forgotten man. If he did not want to take the type of coal, the size of coal and the dirt which they had to offer, it was just too bad for him; he could freeze. That was virtually the attitude which they took. Then suddenly, because of these changes, the industrial market and the railway market have been substantially lost to the coal producers. Now they are struggling desperately to meet the demands of the domestic consumer and to satisfy him.
We now have this down-draft furnace which was produced two years ago, which is on sale, and which apparently is a tremendous improvement over the old coal-burning furnaces. If that same aggressive attitude had been adopted 10 years ago by the companies concerned, they would now be enjoying a much greater proportion of the domestic market than that which they now enjoy. Of course, once having turned to oil, the domestic consumer is not going to throw out the oil furnace and put in a coal-burning furnace, although perhaps it is comparable in efficiency and cost with the oil furnace. Hence they have much responsibility for the way in which they have lost these markets, particularly domestically. It is encouraging to see that they realize that now

I think they frankly admit it-and that they are going to combine efficiency and production together with aggressiveness in sales and are going to attempt to meet the demand of the customer rather than ignore him as hitherto has been the case.
One would not worry too much about the coal industry, or rather one would worry about it but one would face its problem and 67509-365
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys its fate, possibly, if one believed that this was a sort of horse-and-buggy industry which was going to pass out of existence in the way in which the horse and buggy passed out when it was confronted with the competition of the motor vehicle. I recall what happened in the Studebaker plant, I think it was, many years ago. They were the largest producers of carriages in the world. The men went on strike when they first started to produce the automobile because they said it was a hopelessly inefficient machine that was going to put them out of work and would not accomplish any great good. However, the horse and buggy passed. The automobile came to the fore.
I do not think the coal industry is going to pass. I think it has a substantial basis in the economy of this country and that over a period of years it will recover. In fact the report of the dominion coal board says that while the current situation, viewed as a whole, is cause for grave concern, it is to be remembered that the Canadian coal industry is basic and one upon which our economy is still largely dependent.
I think that is a fundamental statement, Mr. Chairman. It is because of that we say this government does have a responsibility in helping to assist this industry in every way possible, not just to keep it in the horse-and-buggy era, but to carry it through a trying period of transition. The reports of the minister's own fuel board suggest that within a decade the costs of other fuels will be increased, the industrial potential of this country will have been developed and there will be an increasing demand for coal. The coal industry must then be in existence to meet that demand. As was suggested this morning, I think by the hon. member for Cape Breton South when referring to the gas turbine engine, perhaps by the time we have that development the coal industry will have passed out of existence; that is the danger, Mr. Chairman.
It is different from operating a grocery store or some sort of a retail business where you can shut the doors, pull down the blinds and have it closed for one year or 10 years. Then you can come back, sweep out the cobwebs, and go into operation. Once these mines are allowed to close, once the shafts fill with water, once the men are taken out, the difficulty and cost of reclaiming them would make it virtually an impossible situation. The mines, having gone, cannot be reclaimed. As I said, therefore, it is essential that this government, in co-operation with provincial governments and in co-operation with the industry itself, do everything possible to maintain the coal industry during these days.
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I think we have failed in this parliament and in this government in the development of a truly national fuel policy. I think that is the basic problem. One day we have emphasized the place of gas and a great deal of money is spent in assisting the gas industry. We have control now of certain rivers in connection with the production of electricity so as to preserve power for Canada. All those things are desirable and all those things may be necessary, but there is no over-all co-ordination; there is no development of a fuel policy as such. I think that is one responsibility of this government and one in which this department has failed.
There was a reference last year to the interdepartmental committee on energy, and that was to be a committee composed of representatives from the various departments of government which would meet and work out a national fuel policy. What do we find? Look at the report of the coal board and you find that the interdepartmental committee met twice. Look at the preceding board report and you find the committee met twice during that year. There were four meetings in two years, Mr. Chairman, and that is not a very aggressive way in which to develop a national fuel policy.
I think that more must be done in that connection than has been done before. I agree with the minister that probably greater industrialization may be the solution to the oroblem. Undoubtedly, there is going to be greater industrialization. Even in the Atlantic provinces there has been a great increase in industrial development, but not nearly as much as in the central provinces. Some criticisms have been levelled at this government by maritime members because it has done very little to assist in the development of industries in these provinces, particularly those industries associated with national defence where direct government control would have permitted much more to be done than has been done. As those industries are developed, so will the market for coal develop.
I want to pay a word of respect to certain industries such as the Nova Scotia Light and Power, for instance, to which reference has been made before. They have installed greater units this year for the burning of coal in the development of electricity. I think there again there has been lack of co-ordination in the past. I am sure that in my own province probably too much money has been spent in the costly development of hydro-electric energy by trying to get the last bit of power development from relatively small water courses. If more attention had been paid to the development of


electrical energy from coal we might have been in a much better position than we are today. At least Nova Scotia Light and Power, by installing this new unit, is providing a certain market for Nova Scotia coal, and as similar installations take place in various areas in the maritimes, so will the consumption of coal increase.
The emphasis has been placed, I think, on the development of these other sources of power. I feel this government is justified in doing more for the coal industry than it has before. A few minutes ago the minister said that, apparently owing to a little increased cost in maritime coal and an increased efficiency in the production of our coal, the amount paid out for subventions per ton will be a little bit less this year. That is a very fortunate situation, and as we develop increased markets in our own country that can continue. Until that situation arrives this government is justified in spending, for subventions and assistance in the movement of coal, more money than it has heretofore.
We had a situation last year where the Canadian National Railways complained about the quality of the coal and refused to buy it on a certain basis. As a result, our government had to pay several million dollars additional to the Canadian National in order to have a certain basis for our coal. Those expenditures are just, because when you spend hundreds of millions of dollars in the development of a seaway, when you advance hundreds of millions of dollars for the building of a gas line-justified as those expenditures may or may not be from a national standpoint, and we are not criticizing that for a moment-then this department and this minister are more than justified in spending the money available to the coal industry, even more money than has been spent in the past. This industry must be kept together during this period of transition.
We have the new problem of freight rates. Freight rates have been increased, as we know, by an interim order of the board. There are going to be further hearings this' fall and we will know then what the final increase in freight rates will be. The government has in the past assisted in meeting those increased costs. I know the hon. member for Cape Breton South raised the question yesterday, and it has been raised before. I hope that this afternoon, in dealing with this particular item of subventions on coal, the minister will tell us what the policy of the government is with respect to meeting these increased costs to the coal producer because increased freight rates just came into effect during the last few years.

As I said, the ultimate problem is the greater industrialization of the country and that is perhaps a place where this government and the provincial government can co-operate. Next week there is to be a meeting of the provincial premiers of the maritime provinces called by Premier Flemming of New Brunswick, in which they are to consider the whole basic problem of the maritime economy. As a result of this conference certain recommendations will be made to this government. The Prime Minister has said he would welcome those recommendations and they would receive direct consideration. We hope that is true. This is one of the basic problems of the maritime economy, this matter of coal production and coal mining. It is essential to the economy of at least two provinces in so far as the Cape Breton area is concerned, the Cape Breton population and those farmers in Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. The New Brunswick farmers, of course, do not come directly into contact with the Cape Breton area but there has been a development in the coal mining industry which has been helpful to that province.
There is some reason, therefore, not perhaps for optimism, but determination that this industry will be kept at least at its present standard of employment, which is low enough, lower than it should be. It must at least be held there during this interregnum until the situation develops which is envisaged by the minister's department when it says that in 1965 there will be a situation in this country by which the coal industry will again be utilized to its full extent.


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Chairman, you will remember that last evening when I was speaking I was called to order, and I did not complete what I had to say. I am not going to repeat anything I said last night. I might say that I agree with everything that was said this afternoon by the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings. As he very well pointed out, this question affects not only the coal miner of Nova Scotia, it affects the whole economy of Nova Scotia. If the industry goes down the province pretty well goes down with it. That is why I have been so vociferous on the matter ever since I came into this house.
Last evening the picture I was trying to leave with the committee was that in so far as actual knowledge of the future of coal, or of any other fuel in Canada, is concerned, there is not very much known. Most of our information comes from the press. I put on the record last night statements from different sections of the press that were directly opposite to each other. One statement painted a picture of the golden era of coal; coal was 67509-365i
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys going to begin to come into its own. The next statement threw it down flat, wrote it off, and it was pretty hard to pinpoint the problem accurately.
I said last night, as the minister indicated this afternoon, that the dominion government did not have the authority to bring this problem to a final conclusion and find a solution because actually the problem is one that, under the British North America Act, rests with the provinces and to a large extent with the operators of the industry. The Dominion Coal Board Act was assented to on July 17, 1947. The powers and authority of the board were clearly set out in the act. The powers and authority given to that board at that time were based on the condition of the industry at that time. Drastic changes have taken place in the whole fuel set-up of Canada in the last nine years. Problems have been created that are interprovincial or company and provincial, and the federal government cannot move to meet them under their present powers.
What I wanted to say last night in summing up what I had said was that I believe what is needed in this country today is an expansion of the Dominion Coal Board Act to give the board the necessary authority to bring some sanity into the production and distribution of fuel in this country. In addition to having its powers broadened the board should have on its membership personnel from the oil industry and the gas industry. The coal industry is represented there at the present time. It should include someone who has some knowledge of the potential of atomic energy, because that is around the corner.
If the situation in the fuel industry is allowed to continue as it has been in the last few years one type of fuel will destroy the other. Nobody can tell with any degree of accuracy what the economic value of natural gas will be in Quebec. The men who are going to pipe that gas down east cannot tell you; neither can the government of Alberta, because when the line comes into Quebec, before they can sell gas or fix a price for it they have to deal with the public utilities board of the province, which will fix the rate. Nobody knows what it will be. Heating systems should not be changed until the price is known. I am reasonably sure that whether it is oil or gas they swing to they will find it will cost more than coal. Many of the small industries in this province that changed over to oil not so long ago are switching back to coal because of the cost.
If we allow the coal industry to drift as it has been drifting, in the next 10 years there will be no industry to rehabilitate. Whether or not you want coal you will not be able to
5744	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys get it. As the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings said, you cannot reclaim a coal mine. You close a mine down. It is closed for a year or two. You are not going to open it again.
There is another thing. It will take you at least five or six years to qualify a miner underground. He has to write examinations. I want to warn the committee that once a miner with five or six years' experience comes above ground he will not go back again if he can find employment somewhere else. I am convinced, after looking at the thermopower development, for example, in Alberta at Battle River, that that is one angle we should be promoting in the maritime provinces. A very good job is being done in Alberta, but they have much cheaper fuel.
In the final analysis I say this government, in co-operation with the provinces, should expand the act and increase the powers of the board. The kind of personnel that I suggest should be placed on the board with the end in view of making an examination of the different zones in Canada as to the fuel that is most economic in a particular zone. That should be done before it is too late. If you had men of the calibre I have in mind from the different fuel industries who could consult together and examine the economies in the different zones across Canada, there is no doubt in my mind but that coal from Cape Breton island would be allocated to the province of Quebec. It is the logical fuel for that area. Regardless of anything else I believe there is a market for at least 5 million or 6 million tons of coal in that particular area for many years to come; but somebody has to take the responsibility for making that kind of survey.
I do not think there is anyone in a position to do that but the federal government, with a board that is pretty competent in the whole field of fuel. The present coal board has a lot of information, a lot of data and many trained personnel today that they did not have in 1947. It would not be very hard to expand the board if it had the power to go into the problems which arise out of the question of the proper economic fields for the different fuels. I think you have to do that if for no other reason than to prevent one fuel killing the other because of the greed and grab for markets at any price until they get in there. Once they get in there, of course, they root the other fuel out. The heating plants are adapted and you pay their price or you do not have any heat.
I think it is a bad thing to give a monopoly to oil, gas or any other fuel in any section of the country and have that section of the country completely dependent on it. The
[Mr. Gillis.l

only logical and sensible answer is a national fuel policy with that kind of board administering it, and with the power to regulate and allocate as far as fuels are concerned.
Toward the end of last session I moved a motion in the house having to do with this particular question, and I was supported by the whole opposition. The Ontario press is pretty careful in going out on a limb on anything that is new. The Globe and Mail had editorials saying that this was a sensible idea. In view of the present situation in the country in the field of fuel, we may be spending millions and millions of dollars on hydro, on oil, on natural gas and on coal. But don't forget what the British are doing right now on atomic energy. In a few years' time because of that development-maybe in the United States and definitely in Britain-we are going to have to work along similar lines, and we are just throwing money away because we do not have any authoritative body in this country that is making a competent study of the whole question of fuels now and in the future, and it is very nearly time we did. The framework of the act is here now, and it is just a matter of giving it a little consideration and expanding it.
The minister did tell us last year that this interdepartmental committee was working. Well, they had a couple of meetings, but there is no doubt there may be some smaller body that is actually doing the research and the digging and we have not received the benefit of it. Perhaps the minister is closer than I am aware to doing the kind of thing I am talking about. Perhaps they are ready to set it up, but it has to be done under an amendment to this act.
I do not want you to call me to order again, Mr. Chairman, but I just wanted to say this in order to complete what I was saying last night. . I hope the minister's department will soon get around to bringing some sanity to the whole question of fuels.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not want to make any speech on this topic, because I told the minister yesterday when I was speaking that I would not repeat what I had said earlier. I was absent from the chamber for about an hour and a half this morning and I expected this whole department would have been cleared away within that time, but perhaps I was too optimistic in that regard. At this time I want to ask the minister just one question.
Yesterday when I was speaking the minister gave the employment figure for 1954 in the gold mining industry as 18,497 and for 1953 the employment figure in the coal industry was 18,291. I asked him at that time if

he would be kind enough to obtain the employment figure for the coal industry for 1948, and I wonder if he would give me those figures at this time if he has them there.


George Prudham: Yes. In 1948, some 22,566 were employed in the gold mining industry and 24,318 in the coal industry. In 1949, 22,358 were employed in the gold mining industry and 24,230 were employed in the coal industry. In 1954, 18,479 were employed in the gold mining industry and 18,050 were employed in the coal mines.


Mr. McCullough (Moose Mountain):: Mr. Chairman, I think the minister and perhaps all the committee will readily understand my interest in this matter when I indicate that almost 25 per cent of all the coal mined in Canada, or about one-fifth of our national production, is mined in my own constituency of Moose Mountain. The coal industry in my province is in very excellent condition. In spite of the fact that western coal production has gone down almost 30 per cent in the last ten years, we are happy to know that in the lignite fields of Estevan we have more than held our own. In 1955 we produced 2,239,000 tons of coal with a sale value of $4,250,000. It is therefore quite important to my province and to me in particular, representing the constituency I do, that everything be done to promote the industry and maintain it in a healthy state.
I was extremely interested in the remarks made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South and the hon. member for Digby-An-napolis-Kings. I want to join with them in suggesting that the time is long overdue for this government to take the responsibility of setting up a national fuel board by which both the conservation and utilization of our fuels can be handled in an intelligent manner.
As I listened to the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings I noticed he pointed out that in his view some of the things that are wrong in the situation existing in the coal mining industry in his area are going to be corrected, but it has taken a long time for the department concerned to take the proper action, and this indicated that something is being done in the way of setting up a national fuel board.
I remember reading speeches made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South prior to my coming to the house in 1945. Even that long ago the hon. member was pointing out to the government of that day that in Canada we should have a co-ordinated board under the control of this government, which would have the interests of the various types of fuel producers in mind, to set up a program which would be conducive to the
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Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys development of the various fuels on a sensible basis. It is well understood that in the last few years across the country we have had a tremendous development in alternate fuels. In my own constituency we have perhaps one of the largest oil fields on the North American continent. Not only do we have an estimated reserve of 13 billion tons of coal, or perhaps 24 per cent of all Canadian reserves, but we also have some of the greatest potential oil fields on this continent.
I think the point made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South and the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings was well taken, that we should have a policy under which there would be no friction between the various ways to utilize our fuels. It is all very well for the minister to get up and say he feels that the best interests of the various fuel industries, speaking about coal in particular, can be served by locating industry in those areas, but it may be that without a plan industry will be set up where competitive fuels will come in and the industry will not be in a competitive position. I think the point made by the hon. members I mentioned was extremely well taken.
This afternoon I want to point out in particular my own concern over the production of coal in my constituency. Over the past ten years we have developed perhaps the highest type of specialized coal mining to be found anywhere in the world, but despite this fact a situation could arise whereby that industry would find itself in great competitive difficulty. Lignite coal moving to the city of Winnipeg and western Ontario markets today furnishes power for some large pulp and paper mills but the new rulings of the transport board, the interim horizontal freight rate increases, might put that industry in an uncompetitive state and perhaps will have a bearing on the future of the coal industry in my constituency. I should like the assurance of the minister after I resume my seat that the government has taken into consideration the situation which has evolved through these interim horizontal increases in freight rates.
I wish to point out to the committee that as far back as 1914 the transport board agreed that, due to the fact that lignite coal was not competitive with bituminous coal, there should be a 10 per cent differential in freight rates. Estevan coal, for example, moving into the Winnipeg market in 1914 was $1.80 a ton; bituminous coal at that time was $2 a ton. Under the present rates and increases subsequent to 1914, lignite coal moves at a freight rate of $3.30 a ton as compared with $3.50 a ton for bituminous
5746	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys coal. That indicates that the increase through these horizontal freight rates may very well put the coal industry in my constituency in a very unfavourable competitive position. I would like the assurance of the minister that his department will take into account the fact that while this industry is very highly specialized and has enjoyed an increase in production over the last 10 years, any further increase may make it non-competitive.
Representations were made by the four Atlantic provinces and the four western provinces, and representations were also made to the Turgeon committee to the effect that horizontal freight increases were not justified and certainly were not fair. I hope we can have an assurance from the minister this afternoon that this new interim increase and the one which may follow later will not .adversely affect this industry.


George Prudham: There is no subvention payable on Saskatchewan coal for shipment to Winnipeg, but the subvention on shipments to western Ontario is based on a percentage of the freight rate up to $1 per ton. It is revised within that limit from time to time as the freight rate varies. At the moment we do not see any reason why it is likely to pierce that ceiling of $1, even with the new change in the freight rate.


Edward George McCullough: I
understand that last year 1,400,000 tons of lignite coal moved to industry and pulp and paper mills in Manitoba and western Ontario, and I should like to know if there is likely to be any change in the amount shipped to that area in the coming year because of the new freight rates,


George Prudham: I think not. The contracts for the supply of coal for the current year were made early in the year, and I do not think there will be any change as far as this present year is concerned.


Edward George McCullough: How
will that affect coal going into that area? Will there be less coal produced and moved there?


George Prudham: The increase in the freight rate would add to the cost of the coal. I should like to say a word of comment in reply to the hon. member for Cape Breton South. His suggestion is consistent with his socialist philosophy. There is no doubt that it sounds good to say you should have a national fuel policy and a national board with power to direct people as to what type of fuel they can use. However, I am afraid if you tried that you would get into a great deal of difficulty. I do not think the people
IMr. McCullough (Moose Mountain).]

of Canada would accept that kind of direction. For instance, the people of Cape Breton might be forbidden to use fuel oil, and there would be many arguments. The people living in Edmonton and Calgary might be directed to use coal because those cities are close to the coal fields and it might be argued that it would be more sensible and economical to send gas to eastern Canada because of the easier method of transportation. It may sound good to say that we should have a national policy with such a board, but I do not think it would actually work out in practice.


Clarence Gillis: The dominion coal board is not a socialist body, and I do not think they advocate socialist principles. I am merely suggesting that competent people should make an examination of the problem so that we might have the facts before us. In 1949 we passed an act to assist the producers of coal in the Atlantic provinces and $10 million was appropriated. I should like to know how much of that has been loaned, to whom it has been loaned, and how much has been paid back.


George Prudham: The details as of March 31, 1955 are as follows:
Avon Coal Co. Ltd.
Loan authorized-3 per cent	 $ 218,000.00
Total	advances	 160,000.00
Balance to be loaned	 58,000.00
Dominion Coal Co. Ltd.
Loan authorized-31 per cent	 $7,500,000.00
Total	advances	 4,673,524.92
Balance to be loaned	 2,826,475.08
Repayments	 408,129.30
Balance to be repaid	 4,265,395.62
Interest paid to Dec. 31, 1955	 503,108.11
Four Star Collieries Ltd.
Loan No. 1 authorized 2j per cent . $ 100,000.00
Total advances	 100,000.00
Repayments	 57,666.00
Balance to be repaid	 42,334.00
Interest paid to Dec. 31, 1955	 7,477.85
Loan No. 3 authorized-3j per cent .	69,320.00
Total	advances	 62,000.00
Balance to be loaned	 7,320.00
Victor Charles McMann
Loan authorized-3 per cent	
$	8,175.00Total	advances	
8,175.00Repayments	
nilBalance to be repaid	
8,175.00
D.W. & R.A. Mills Ltd.
Loan authorized-4 per cent	 $ 305,850.00
Total	advances	 305,850.00
Repayments	 127,484.37
Balance to be repaid	 178,365.63
Interest paid to Dec. 31, 1955	 21,619.48
Total loans authorized	$8,201,345
Balance not committed	 $1,341,655


Clarence Gillis: Does the rate of interest vary from company to company?


George Prudham: It varies according to the cost of money to the federal treasury. It is 3 per cent in some instances, 2| per cent, 3J per cent and 4 per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
498. Departmental administration, $2,215,472.
Hugues Lapointe: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a short statement at this time. As hon. members know, no new legislation has been introduced this session having to do with veterans affairs, with the exception of a minor amendment to the Veterans Business and Professional Loans Act, which comes under the Department of Finance.
This does not mean that the government and officials of my department consider that further amendments to the legislation making up the veterans' charter may not be necessary in the future. As I have mentioned in previous years, that legislation is under constant review with the intent that the charter must meet the changing needs and requirements of the veteran and his dependents.
It must be agreed, however, I submit, that great progress has been made in the legislative field during the last five years. In 1951 substantial amendments were brought down to the Pension Act, which came into force on January 1, 1952, and the act was again amended in 1954. The War Veterans' Allowance Act was amended in 1952 and again last year. Part II and part III were added to the Veterans' Land Act during the 195354 session, and the Children of War Dead (Education Assistance) Act was passed in
1953.	A complete consolidation of the treatment regulations was effected during the year
1954,	and these regulations have been amended several times since during 1954, 1955 and this year.
Writing in the October, 1955, issue of The Legionary, the Legion publication, Very Rev. Dean John D. Anderson, then dominion president of the Canadian Legion, said:
Today the task of obtaining adequate legislation is almost complete. True there are areas where improvements could still be made and will be made. But by and large the legislation picture is gratifying.
As hon. members know, the dominion convention of the Canadian Legion in session last month in Vancouver passed a number of resolutions concerned with proposed legislative amendments, and as soon as these recommendations are received by the government I can assure the committee they will receive the careful and thorough consideration of the government and the officials of my department. Here I wish to pay tribute to the
Supply-Veterans Affairs Canadian Legion, the national council of veterans' associations in Canada and the other veterans' organizations which have done so much to promote the well-being of the veteran and his dependents in our country. The efforts of these organizations and their willingness at all times to co-operate with the Department of Veterans Affairs are reflected in the legislation we call the veterans' charter of which all Canadians are, I believe, justifiably proud.
As hon. members know, the most significant changes made in the War Veterans' Allowance Act last year were in the rates and ceilings, the former being increased by 20 per cent to $60 monthly for single persons and $108 for those on married rates, and the ceilings being raised to $840 per year for recipients at the single rate and to $1,440 for those receiving the married rate. As of March 31, 1956, there were 51,781 recipients on war veterans allowance with an annual liability of $40,207,916. These recipients included 38,427 veterans of all wars, 13,208 widows and 146 orphans.
There has been a marked increase in the number of applications for war veterans allowance since April 1, 1955, the date the amendments to the act became effective. In the year ended March 31, 1954 there were 5,545 new applications approved for war veterans allowance and in the next fiscal year ended March 31, 1955, there were 6,322 such applications. In the last fiscal year ended March 31, 1956, 8,562 new applications were approved.
As announced in the house last session, the rules under which grants from the assistance fund could be approved were reviewed and the formula extended to include allowances for clothing and other personal items. In the fiscal year ended March 31, 1955, 5,681 veterans and widows received assistance from the fund, and in the year ended March 31, 1956, the number was 6,256.
While generally speaking the assistance fund has been meeting the purpose for which it was set up, I have recently asked the appropriate officials in the department to review its administration and application with the intent of perhaps again widening the formula to help some of those war veterans allowance recipients who cannot supplement their incomes through casual earnings. Veterans in receipt of the allowance are also eligible for free treatment for any condition, and the cost of that treatment in the 1955-56 fiscal year was estimated at about $13 million, which was almost one-third of our total treatment cost.
The administrative wrinkles in connection with the putting into operation of the new rules regarding casual earnings, including the
5748	HOUSE OF
Supply-Veterans Affairs formulae designed for calculating farm income and to determine net income derived from roomers and boarders, have been pretty well ironed out, and I can report to the committee that these new regulations have been of substantial benefit to many war veterans allowance recipients.
The Veterans' Land Act administration continues to operate at a high level of activity. In the fiscal year ended March 31, 1956, 3,175 veterans were settled under the act. This
number was made up as follows:
Full-time farmers	 578
Small holders	 2,467
Commercial fishermen	 36
Settlers on provincial and dominion lands	 94
The total number of veterans settled under the Veterans' Land Act since its inception as of March 31, 1956, was 70,529, made up as
follows:
Full-time farmers	 32,377
Small holders	 37,122
Commercial fishermen	 1,030
Settlers on provincial and dominion lands	 5,092
Since part II came into force and as of June 30, 1956, 655 contracts for veterans to build houses for themselves have been approved under this new part. Construction activity during 1955, including that under part II, reached its highest level since 1950, amounting to 2,159 new contracts let, of which 88 per cent were managed by the veterans themselves.
As hon. members know, part III of the new act provides for additional loans to farmers and small holders at the time they are settled. Up to the end of March, 1956, 1,387 farmers, 3,422 small holders and 22 commercial fishermen had been granted these additional loans under part III. We are closely watching the operation of these two new parts of the Veterans' Land Act to make sure they are meeting the purposes and objectives which parliament intended when the amendments were made to the Veterans' Land Act in the 1953-54 session.
It is interesting to note that the 10-year period has expired for a number of veterans, and as of July 1, 1956, 2,830 veterans have now earned their conditional grants. As many veterans were settled in 1946 and 1947, we anticipate that several thousand veterans will earn their conditional grants during the next 18 months. I think all members of the committee will agree that the Veterans' Land Act has been a most successful rehabilitation measure.
The Pension Act, of course, remains one of the main pillars of the veterans' charter. At the end of May, 1956, there were 194,035


persons in receipt of pensions under the act, with a total annual liability of $128,685,908. During the last five years, or even during the last 10 years, one trend which is very evident is the constant decline in the ranks of world war I pensioners, both veterans and dependents, and the steady rise in the number of world war II pensioners. As I informed the Legion convention at Vancouver, the Canadian pension commission has completed several reviews during the last two years, undertaken as part of the policy of ensuring that the maximum benefits of the Pension Act are made available to veterans, and this committee may be interested in some of the results.
These reviews were carried out in conjunction with the regular work of the commission, and in co-operation with the treatment services branch of the department. One of these was a review of all world war I pensioners whose disabilities were assessed at 40 per cent and 45 per cent. As hon. members know, these awards were stabilized if they had been in effect for three years or more, but we were of the opinion that a medical re-examination would disclose an increase in disability in many instances.
The chairman of the commission, Brigadier J. L. Melville, issued orders accordingly and over 3,000 such pensioners were reexamined. As a result a very substantial number of these awards were increased to 50 per cent or more, making their dependents eligible for an award in the event of death.
Similarly, a review was undertaken of all awards to world war I veterans for defective hearing, which awards had also been stabilized. Over 6,000 reviews were arranged and it was found that there had been a further deterioration in hearing acuity in more than half of these pensioners. This additional loss has been compensated for by a corresponding increase in their awards.
At the beginning of 1955 a more liberal policy in respect to awards to dependent parents was placed in effect, and a review commenced of all such awards in payment. It was felt that these recipients were entitled to similar consideration, respecting allowable income, as were recipients of war veterans allowance and old age assistance. The total allowable income for one dependent parent is now $85 monthly, except for widowed mothers who may have $95, and $120 per month for two dependent parents.
In the two-year period since the enactment of the amendment to the Pension Act which provided for the payment of additional pension for legally adopted children, additional pension has been awarded on behalf of nearly

3,200 adopted children, a much larger number, I must say, than was originally anticipated.
Since the passing of the Children of War Dead (Education Assistance) Act, 679 children of those who gave their lives for our country have been approved for educational assistance. The students are enrolled in nursing, teaching, engineering, business administration, law, medicine and many other courses. We are convinced there will be substantial increases in the numbers of students approved for assistance under the act during the next few years, as most of the eligible children are still in secondary or even primary school at this time.
Under the veterans' treatment regulations the department provides treatment, hospitalization and domiciliary care for veterans and for other authorized persons under certain circumstances. This, of course, is one of the most important aspects of the work of the department. The cost of our treatment services last year amounted to $45,381,181, including hospital construction in the amount of $3,465,177.
The amendments to section 13 of the treatment regulations last year-this is the section with the sliding scale of charges designed to protect the veteran against hospitalization costs which might ruin him financially-came into effect on August 1, 1955. During the last fiscal year 6,359 patients were treated under section 13 at a cost of $2,356,563.90. Of this amount only $546,726.61 was charged to the patients, which I believe shows the effectiveness of the sliding scale.
Here I should like to mention the fact that the Department of Veterans Affairs suffered a severe loss last December in the untimely death of Dr. Wilfred Parsons Warner, who occupied the post of director general of treatment services for the last 10 years. Hon. members will recall that Dr. Warner had been responsible for the setting up of our hospitalization system throughout Canada in the Department of Veterans Affairs. I know he will be remembered by veterans for his professional qualifications, for his human and down to earth approach to their problems, and for the success he attained in providing veterans with the best possible care and medical treatment available anywhere.
The department has been fortunate to obtain the services of Dr. John Crawford, formerly with the Royal Canadian Medical Corps at the Department of National Defence. He is the new head of treatment services. He brings to veterans' affairs sound professional qualifications, with a good background of administrative experience.
Supply-Veterans Affairs
As hon. members know, 100 years ago Queen Victoria authorized a medal to be made from the metal of the guns which had been captured at Balaclava and to be awarded for valour in the presence of the enemy. It was known as the Victoria Cross. This year, during the week commencing June 25, the centenary celebration of the award of the first Victoria Cross took place in London, Canada being represented by a large group of V.C.'s and relatives, of whom two are members of this house.
Under arrangements made by the Canadian V.C. centenary committee and with the cooperation of T.C.A. and various shipping companies, a total of 118 persons were provided with transportation to the United Kingdom by air and sea at public expense.
The V.C.'s, who included two still serving in the army, numbered 36. They were accompanied by 37 relatives, and there were also 44 relatives of posthumous and deceased V.C.'s. Although I have not as yet received an official report, I am informed that the ceremonies were most impressive and the arrangements for the Canadian party in England extremely well handled by the staff of the D.V.A. office in London, England, and the officers of the Canadian joint staff, national defence, to whom my appreciation is extended. I feel that all of us will be honoured by the prominent part played by Canadian V.C.'s and their relatives in this unique celebration.
Before taking my seat, Mr. Chairman, I should like to mention the national memorial and cenotaph which, as I announced in the house some weeks ago, will be built on Nepean point overlooking the Ottawa river. As I said in the house, the world war II Book of Remembrance and any similar books which may be prepared in the future, as well as a copy of the world war I Book of Remembrance, will be housed in this national memorial. The matter is now in the hands of my colleague the Minister of Public Works, and I understand that the architects are presently engaged in preparing the plans and specifications.
The annual report of the Department of Veterans Affairs has been edited and it is now in the hands of the queen's printer. Full statistical information regarding the administration of the department will, as usual, be found in that report. I, of course, will be glad to give all the information I have to members of this committee on any aspect of the work of the department, either under this item or subsequent items.
5750	HOUSE OF
Supply-Veterans Affairs


Mr. Brooks:: Mr. Chairman, we appreciate the remarks of the minister and his comprehensive report of the veterans affairs department. May I, at the outset, join with him in expressing the appreciation which I know the people of Canada feel for the attendance of our V.C.'s at the centennial celebration in England, and particularly the two who represented us from this House of Commons.
The minister truly said that there has been no legislation this year emanating from the veterans affairs department. I was pleased to hear him say this does not mean that the department does not realize there are amendments which should and must be made to the different veterans' acts. When we review the estimates, Mr. Chairman, we realize there has been very little change in the department during the last year. As a matter of fact the estimates for last year, 1955-56, were $245,808,151 and for 1956-57 they are practically the same, $245,413,819. This shows that there has been very little change in the veterans department.
The minister mentioned the fact that the veterans' charter is the basis of veterans' legislation. We who have been here for many years, since 1945, realize that the veterans' charter did contain some very comprehensive legislation covering the needs of veterans. We also realize that in these changing times there must be changes in veterans' legislation. I remember that in those days the veterans' committee was the busiest committee in the House of Commons. This was true not only in 1945, 1946 and 1947, but right through until that legislation was completed. Then again during the Korean war we were fairly busy bringing legislation up to date to see that the veterans of Korea received the same benefits as the veterans of world war I and world war II.
There is a feeling amongst some veterans, Mr. Chairman

possibly it is not justified- that now there is no war the government believes there is little need to attend to veterans' problems. I think this idea gains ground from the fact that at the present time we have a minister who is sharing his activities with the Post Office Department. In previous debates this year this matter has been brought before the house, and it was before the Legion's convention in Vancouver. I think it is generally felt that the veterans would like to see a full-time minister on the job.
There are so many ramifications to veterans' problems. We only have to listen to the minister's report this afternoon to realize the many problems facing the veterans department and the minister. There are 

homes for veterans, farms, businesses, insurance, fisheries, pensions, war veterans' allowances, hospitalization and many more that I could mention. I do not believe there is any department of government that has to deal more with human problems and the human element than has the veterans affairs department. Even the health department is not concerned with these problems to the same extent. In the field of health there are health departments in the different provincial governments and the municipalities. Veterans affairs is an exclusive problem of the federal government.
We feel there should be a full-time minister. I might say that anything which might be considered as neglect of this department- and I do not say there has been neglect, particularly-but anything which would make the veterans feel this department was not as important as other departments, gives them serious worry. The veterans of this country are very jealous indeed of their Department of Veterans Affairs. I do hope this is the last session of parliament in which we shall see a part-time minister dealing with this most important department. In addition, the Post Office Department is a very important department. I could name other departments of government in which I do not think the ministers are very busy or need to be very busy. If the work in these two departments which should be done by the minister of a department is to be done, a minister should be on the job full time in each department.
The minister spoke about the possibility of new legislation. There is no question in my mind, Mr. Chairman, that the many acts which he mentioned this afternoon do require amendment; there is no doubt in my mind or in the minds of veterans across Canada that there are many problems and many things concerning veterans which must be considered and brought up to date. I think we can show, for instance, that there has been considerable unfinished business. When I say "unfinished business", Mr. Chairman, my mind goes back to the different meetings of the veterans affairs committee in this House of Commons, when matters were repeatedly brought before the committee and the government having to do with amendments which should be made to certain acts, particularly the War Veterans' Allowance Act.
I should like to deal with that for just a few minutes. I shall deal with it under the head of unfinished business as far as the department is concerned. I was very pleased to note, and not surprised in the least, that at the convention of the Canadian Legion in Vancouver a short time ago some of these problems were again brought to the attention of the country

by resolutions presented to the convention. I might say in passing, as has often been said in this house, that I suppose one of the finest pieces of veterans' legislation that has ever been presented to any parliament was the war veterans' allowance legislation that was presented to this parliament in 1930. The history of that legislation has been given a great many times, and it is not necessary to repeat it this afternoon.
I should like first to mention the ceiling on the war veterans' allowance. This is not new, Mr. Chairman; it is something which has been discussed at every veterans' meeting we have had in the past five or six years. As the minister pointed out, the ceiling on income for single veterans is $840; the ceiling on income for the married veteran is $1,440. The minister and other members, particularly the members of the veterans' committee, will recall that the recommendation which was made in 1952, I think it was, and repeated again in 1955, was that the ceiling should be $1,200 for single veterans and $2,000 for married veterans.
This was recommended to the committee after very serious study by Legion committees all across Canada. It was a great disappointment to veterans all across Canada when the government did not see fit at that time to raise the ceiling. It has worked a great hardship on many individuals who are recipients of war veterans' allowances.
As far as the employable veteran is concerned, it was argued that the ceilings were high enough because under the present ruling regarding casual earnings the veteran who is employable can earn an extra $600 a year; also, under section 4 of the act a veteran during months of employment could earn whatever was possible for him to obtain. So far as the employable veteran was concerned the ceiling did not mean very much. The very fact that the department increased the allowable casual earnings, and the very fact that we have section 4 of the act, were a recognition that more money was necessary as far as the unemployable veteran was concerned. The unemployable veteran, the man who has nothing but his war veterans' allowance or perhaps a small pension, is placed in a very serious position.
I want to emphasize this afternoon that one of the first things to which the Department of Veterans Affairs should give attention is this matter of increasing the ceiling on the war veterans' allowance. For instance, take the veteran who has reached the age of 70 years. If he has no other income but his war veterans' allowance, owing to the ceiling he can obtain only part of his war veterans' allowance because he is also a recipient of the old
Supply-Veterans Affairs age pension. If he is single he can receive a total of only $820 a year. Then there is the disability pensioner. These things are not new. I know hon. members have heard them discussed in the veterans' committee. We brought in amendments and pressed for these considerations in 1952 and 1955.
The disability pensioner with a small pension of $25 or $30 a month is also prejudiced against. If he is a single man he cannot receive more than $840 a year; if he is married he cannot receive more than $1,200 a year. Take a man who has worked hard during his life and at the time of retirement has a small superannuation allowance which he has earned. If he receives $25 or $30 a month as superannuation allowance he is prejudiced under the present ceiling of the War Veterans' Allowance Act. Of course we have been told that there is an assistance fund. Well, the assistance fund amounts to $10 a month and is given only to those who have absolutely nothing except their war veterans' allowance. If they are in receipt of $60 a month they may obtain another $10, bringing the amount up to $70 a month. If one is to judge from the amount of money which has been paid out by the department, very few people are receiving any substantial amount from the assistance fund.
As far as the employable veteran is concerned, he is not going to be employable for very many more years. He is employable today because his health is good. These men of the first world war are old men today. The average age of the war veterans of the first war is in the vicinity of 66 or 67 years. In a few years these men who are today earning extra money will not be able to earn that money. The numbers of unemployable veterans are increasing every day of every month. I do hope this matter will receive very careful consideration at the next session of parliament.
Something else which was brought up at the Legion convention at Vancouver which hon. members have been mentioning for many years was this question of granting the war veterans' allowance to men of the first war who had service only in England. I have always felt that these men were entitled to consideration. I think that entitlement is emphasized today more than at any other time. These are old men. Many of them served in England because they had no choice; perhaps they were good at training men in the reserve areas. Perhaps they were men who either worked at headquarters in London or at some particular job which did not permit them to go to France. Spending four years of army life away from home was not easy on them. While the original idea
5752	HOUSE OF
Supply-Veterans Affairs of the war veterans' allowance was to give it to men who had served in the front lines in the trenches-and that is the reason these men have been denied it-that idea has been altogether changed as far as the war veterans allowance is concerned.
I would like to point this out as well. The mere fact that a veteran set foot in France qualifies him for consideration for the war veterans' allowance. Perhaps he arrived there in 1918 in the very last month of the war and perhaps he did not get within miles of the trenches; but nevertheless that man is entitled to consideration for war veterans' allowance. But the man who spent four hard years in England frequently working under very trying conditions is not entitled to consideration.
To emphasize again how the original idea changed regarding service in the trenches, I would point out that men can receive the war veterans' allowance today if they have had dual service. That means they may have simply arrived in England during the latter days of the war and never gone to France and served in Canada here during the second world war. Such a man is entitled to war veterans' allowance but, as I say, the man who had four years of hard service in England does not receive any consideration.
When this matter was up before, the question of the time of arrival in England was mentioned in the committee. We know there were thousands of men who arrived in England for training just about the time the war ended. I think perhaps an amendment might very well take into consideration the fact that the man who had gone over in 1914, 1915 or 1916 and who had long service there should be entitled to consideration, but not the man who arrived in England just a short time before the end of hostilities.
The matter of the cost was mentioned in the 1955 committee. At that time we were told that it would cost an estimated $9 million. That estimate seems very high to me. The minister told us today there are 51,000 recipients of war veterans' allowance. That figure includes men of the first war, men of the second war, men of the South African war, men of the northwest rebellion and all the widows and other dependents. I suppose the men who served would total approximately 30,000 all told. Out of that 30,000 probably 25,000 are veterans of the first war. I think the 11,000 who were mentioned as those who would be entitled as recipients of the allowance for service in England if an amendent were made is a figure that is out of all proportion. I think it is an exaggeration and should be carefully reviewed once more. As I said before, many


of them are men who arrived in England just as the war was ending. This is a matter which I feel should and must be considered. These men feel a great injustice is being done to them, and I share that view.
At every veterans' committee we have had during the past ten years we have had a group of very nice old ladies visit the committee, and they have always presented an interesting brief. I refer to the widows of our allied veterans, the non-pensioned veterans' widows. A veteran who did not serve with the Canadian forces but who served with one of our allied forces and who lived for 20 years in Canada was qualified in the same way as our own veterans to receive the war veterans' allowance, but he had to reside 20 years in Canada. If he qualified, his widow would automatically receive the war veterans' allowance at his death.
Many of these allied veterans lived in Canada for almost the required 20 years- 18 or 19 years, and sometimes within a few months of the 20 years-and then died and their widows received nothing. These ladies who visit us, as I said, have made application time after time that they be considered for pensions if they themselves-as widows of allied veterans who had every qualification except 20 years' residence-have resided in Canada for 20 years. I think that is a reasonable request. I am sure this house will be surprised to learn that the total estimated cost presented to us in this regard is between $300,000 and $400,000; there are about 700 of them, according to the evidence we have had.
Here again is something that should be taken into consideration when the War Veterans' Allowance Act is amended, in justice to these women. As the evidence before our committee last year revealed they are dying off very quickly, and there would not be any great burden on this country even if their number were increasing, in view of the small amount of money required to take care of them.
I believe there should be a review of the Pension Act; it should be brought up to date. I hope at the next sitting of this house a veterans' committee will be set up which can review our Pension Act to see if the pensions we are paying are at all in line with the cost of living as it has changed from year to year.
When the minister was speaking he mentioned the cost of dependent parents. I am pleased that this matter is receiving consideration, because I have always felt it was a great injustice that we did not give consideration to pensions for dependent parents at the time we increased the pensions for widows from $75 to $100. If a dependent parent lives with a widow who is receiving the $100 a month and if that widow has children the

parent can receive only $40 a month. If the widow marries and the dependent parent has to seek a home somewhere else, she still receives only $40 a month. This has created a hardship for many dependent parents, and I am sure if it were properly adjusted it would not cost this country very much.
The minister has referred to hospital treatment. When the Legion met in Vancouver there were present veterans from the United States. At the present time a pensioner living in Canada receives hospitalization which is more or less satisfactory, but if a Canadian soldier living in the United States requires hospitalization he receives it for his disability alone. As the minister has said, these men are getting older all the time and the disabilities which they suffer bring on other disabilities. They are men of 65, 67 and 70 years of age.
The representatives of Canadian veterans living in the United States asked for a new reciprocal deal for the Canadian veteran living in the United States and also in Great Britain or other countries. They asked that when hospitalization was required it be paid for by the Canadian government, and that a reciprocal arrangement be made whereby the United States veteran living in Canada would receive hospitalization here when required.
This comes under section 13 of the treatment regulations. In the information sent out by the department entitled "Should Illness Strike" there is this sentence:
This treatment is available to veterans in Canada only.
The words "in Canada only" are emphasized. There are some 35,000 Canadian veterans living in the United States, a small proportion of whom are pensioners. The spokesman for this group at Vancouver was Mr. Wright, who said:
The Canadian ex-serviceman below the border is entitled under the present act only to his disability allowance.
He was referring to hospitalization for disability only.
He forgoes everything else. If he can't afford to travel back to Canada when he is sick, then he must pay the shot where he is.
This is something we could very well take under consideration. While these men are living in the United States, they served in the Canadian army just the same as those who are living in Canada, and received their wounds in the same battles.
There is another matter with which I do not intend to deal at any length at this time, as it can be discussed when the items are before us. I refer to the need of homes for older veterans, a matter which I have brought up before. This is an increasing problem, and
Supply-Veterans Affairs I note that the department realizes this because on page 15 of the departmental report the following appears:
General welfare needs of older veterans are increasing in importance and volume, and a sustained effort is required in helping them with their problems. More world war I veterans are becoming retired or able to do only light employment, entailing increasing calls on the department's statutory provisions for assisted maintenance, and co-ordinated search by the staff for suitable work.
The whole point is that the day is fast coming when these men will no longer be able to look after themselves, and I am referring now not only to veterans but to all older people. This is becoming a serious problem in this country and homes for older people should be established all across the country. Not long ago I read an article in the Saturday Evening Post dealing with nursing homes in the United States to which older people were farmed out and left to await death. In countries like Great Britain, Sweden and many others, provision is being made for older people. With the provinces, the municipalities, the Department of National Health and Welfare and the Department of Veterans Affairs working in conjunction something along this general line should be done for our veterans and our older people.
On April 27 I asked the minister a question regarding the protective staff of the house, and he promised that he would give a reply later on. I asked whether military service applied in connection with seniority.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: It is five o'clock and the house will revert to the consideration of private and public bills. Perhaps I should point out to the hon. member that he has exceeded his time, but with the unanimous consent of the committee he would be permitted to complete his statement when the committee resumes.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



PRIVATE BILLS

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: have been given to understand that it is not intended to proceed with any public bills, although it is the right of any hon. member to have any particular bill called if he so desires. All items under this heading can stand by unanimous consent.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: Then the house will revert to the consideration of the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

Supply-Veterans Affairs SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

[Stage Direction]
49S. Departmental administration, $2,215,472.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: Do I take it that the hon. member for Royal has the unanimous consent of the committee to proceed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I wish to thank the committee for its courtesy. I do not intend to take much more time, because there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss these matters when the items come up. At five o'clock I was calling the minister's attention to the question I asked on April 27. I do not think I need to extend my remarks on that. When he replies to some of the other questions I hope he will give that further consideration.


Hugues Lapointe: I think I did reply to that question the following day.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Perhaps I was away. I will check on it. I was pleased to hear the minister pay his tribute to the Canadian veterans' organizations. We have always felt in our committees and in the house that the organizations he mentioned, the Canadian Legion, the national council of veterans and others, have given great service to war veterans all across this country. As a matter of fact I was greatly interested in an editorial in a recent issue of The Legionary. The editorial is headed, "Legion Principles", and I should like to read one part with which I agree 100 per cent.
They have by their ceaseless efforts sought to secure just recognition of the hard-won rights of their disabled comrades, of the widows and dependents of those who made the supreme sacrifice. These will always be their first responsibility. They have sought justice for those who have become prematurely aged by the exposures and privations of war. They will continue their efforts on behalf of these gallant men who, having saved-their countrymen from oppression and slavery, only ask for a modest allowance sufficient to maintain themselves as self-respecting citizens.
I think that sizes up the situation as far as the efforts of the different veterans' organizations are concerned. I could make a comparison, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps it is not out of place to do so. I remember that after the first great war there were thousands of veterans in the United States who marched on Washington and demanded a $10,000 bonus. Recently we have seen them again asking for enormous amounts of money. I should like to refer to an editorial in the Christian Science Monitor of June 12, 1956.
[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite).]

It mentions the bill the veterans are trying to get through congress and has this to say:
This bill would grant within two months of enactment a monthly pension of $105 to any veteran of the two world wars or of Korea who has reached the age of 65 and whose income, if married, is less than $2,700 or, if single, less than $1,400. The criterion is reaching 65, not wounds, sickness, or accident suffered during military service.
The editorial goes on to say that if the bill should pass it would mean a cost in excess of $400 billion to the American people in the next 44 years. I simply mention this to contrast the difference so far as the Canadian veteran is concerned. I am not saying this in disparagement of the United States veterans, but we all know that Canadian veterans of the first world war served for four years in France while many United States veterans did not serve in France for more than a few months. Our Canadian veterans, under the leadership of the different veterans' organizations, have never at any time been unreasonable in their requests to the country or the government. Neither the Canadian Legion nor the other organization has ever made excessive demands upon the people of Canada. I believe the demands to which I have referred this afternoon are very modest. I believe they are demands which could and should be given consideration by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
I was pleased to hear the minister mention some of his officials, particularly Dr. Warner. We know what splendid service he gave. I should also like to refer to Brigadier Topp, formerly of the Canadian pension commission but now retired from that position. I am sure all veterans valued the great service Brigadier Topp gave to veterans before his retirement. I am not going to impose upon the committee any longer. I have been granted extra time, but I will have time to discuss many other matters later. I wish to thank the committee for their courtesy.


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Chairman, I want to join with the minister in his reference to the loss the department suffered in the passing of Dr. Warner. I was one member of the house who was privileged to do considerable work with him from time to time and to go to him to find the solution to certain problems. I join with the minister in his expression of the loss that has been suffered. Anyone who took an active part in trying to iron out problems with reference to treatment particularly found a very active friend in Dr. Warner, and I think the veterans' hospitals across Canada, which compare with any hosiptals in the country, will stand as a monument to his memory. I trust that the man who has taken
JULY e, 1956
his place will be able to fill his shoes. He has been set a pretty hard task.
I listened with interest to the minister's report, and I want to compliment the department for the things they did without any urging or any pressure. It indicates to me at least that whether or not we are pushing the department, there seems to be a constant review within the department and the pension commission so far as pensions and the welfare of veterans generally are concerned. The fact that without any solicitation, as far as I know, the 40 per cent to 45 per cent cases were re-examined and adjusted to 50 per cent by the commission is to me a thoughtful and generous gesture on their part, because not only does it give the veteran the additional income but it also protects his wife and family in the event that he passes on.
I want the minister to know that as one member who is interested in the commission I appreciate that gesture very much. I believe that the fact that there was a reexamination of 3,000 cases in certain categories and that they were stepped up to the 50 per cent mark represents a pretty fair assessment on the part of the commission, and I think they should be complimented for it. As an opposition member I believe in shoving them when I have to, but also in giving credit where credit is due.
The minister mentioned another item for which I think we should express our appreciation. He referred to the fact that 3,200 adopted children have been brought under the act for pension purposes. That not only serves the purpose of giving the children some security, but also serves the purpose of encouraging veterans who are pensioners and in a position to adopt children to do so and give these children homes. I know many institutions across this country which have the responsibility of caring for unfortunate children will appreciate this gesture on the part of the minister. I think that is a problem that was crying for a solution for some considerable time. I am glad to see that-again without very much urging or pushing-the department or commission saw fit to make that adjustment.
Another matter under the minister's department, according to his report, that I thought was encouraging was the educational assistance made available just a couple of years ago to veterans' children in certain categories. The fact that 609 children were able to take advantage of that legislation shows that it was needed. As time goes on I think more and more use will be made of it. I just wanted to say that in appreciation of what the commission and the department have done during the time since the last veterans' affairs committee met.
Supply-Veterans Affairs On this matter of the minister occupying the dual position of Minister of Veterans Affairs and Postmaster General, may I say this. I received one letter on the question. Of course it represented a command within my own area. My answer to that letter was that I did not think the fact that the minister was obliged to make an announcement in the house occasionally on behalf of the Post Office Department-one that was handed to him by the deputy postmaster general, who runs the department anyway-had detracted very much from the minister's performance of his duty as Minister of Veterans Affairs. I do not think it involved a great deal of work because, as I have observed it during the time I have been here, that is about the situation. But I do not think that the minister should continue to be obliged to accept that responsibility. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration does a very good job in that field, and he had the portfolio for some time. In order to remove any thought on the part of the veterans that the minister is occupied fully by the Post Office Department, I suggest that the department should be handed over to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Thank you very much.


Clarence Gillis: The reason I say that is this. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and the deputy postmaster general are old friends. They occupied the same office for a long time. They both live in Ottawa. I am sure you get along with him much better than does the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I just want to say that I never considered that matter too seriously, because I fully realize just how much work there is involved in making these announcements. As to the people who have complained, that is all I have heard. Of course if I thought the dual position in fact detracted in any way from the minister's handling of his own department, I would be one of the first to complain.
There are a few odds and ends which I think still require cleaning up. One is the matter of casual earnings. I believe the department should give serious consideration to lifting that ceiling. I believe that the demand of the Legion for $2,000 for the married recipient of war veterans' allowance and $1,400 for the single person is reasonable. We have the fact that the basic amount is set at $108 plus $12 in certain cases bringing the allowance up to $120. Lifting the ceiling on permissible earnings does not mean that it is going to cost any more. It is not going to cost the government any more. However, it will provide an incentive for the recipient of the allowance to go out and try to earn something.

Supply-Veterans Affairs I think that particular point should be given serious consideration by the minister's department.
The second sore spot, in my opinion-and it is becoming more apparent as time goes on- is the discrimination that exists in the war veterans' allowance as between the man in the second war and the man in the first war. A veteran of the second war, because England was declared a theatre of war in certain circumstances, can qualify for veterans' allowance. The veteran of the first war cannot do so. As has been pointed out time and time again, I think you are safe in saying that at least 90 per cent of the men of the first war who stayed in England did so because they were ordered to stay there. They were cooks, technicians and people who went into the pay and records offices. They were instructors and that kind of thing. They were under orders to stay there. I know many of them who wanted to go over to the front and who broke their hearts to leave their units.
These people did not suffer the hardships of the trenches, and they were not wounded. People of that calibre came back, and they were people who had either a profession or a trade; they had training of some kind. They were people who could come back and find a job in this country, with a reasonable degree of health, and they have been employed. Now they are getting along to the age of 65 and maybe to 70 but they are not old enough for that $40 a month and they still cannot qualify for war veterans' allowance.
I think it is time something was done for them. As the hon. member for Royal said, even if you took them on now, you are not going to have them very long. Many of them are getting around to the point where they are not going to be here much longer. The situation is a piece of discrimination. I know I am getting a good deal of correspondence on the matter now, and it is only within the last few years that I began to get it. It arises because of the fact that they have been moved off jobs because they have reached the retiring age, many of them in industries and what have you that do not have any pension schemes, and they just go out with nothing. I receive some rather pathetic letters from them.
Looking at that age group again and the question of establishing homes for them, may I say this. I do not know what the situation is in the rest of the country, but I know that in Halifax, at Camp Hill hospital, there is an annex that is designed for that purpose. I have looked it over. I know many of the people there. The Red Cross maintains an institution close by where meals and recreational facilities are available at very low cost
[Mr. Gill is.i
in comparison with what you must pay in the city. During my last visit there I found the men to be quite happy and contented. They have at their disposal a nurse who stays there with them. There is a doctor who comes in there and takes care of them. Some of them are placed two in a room. Others have a room to themselves. I did not hear any complaints.
That is the situation around Camp Hill in Nova Scotia. I do not know what happens in the rest of the country. I think the veterans will have to stay together. They want to be together. You cannot farm them out into the regular old people's homes. They have something in common. They want to reminisce about their experiences. When there is a group of them together they are quite happy and they can keep occupied. They do a great deal of work there making handbags and bracelets. They can pick up the odd bit of change in that way. Of course that is the situation at that one point, but I assume it is just about the same across the country. I trust the minister will give serious consideration to changing the act to include veterans of the first war for war veterans' allowance purposes.
Another pet complaint that I have had for some time is with respect to the imperial veterans' widows. As to the imperial veteran who had 20 years' residence in this country and passed away, his widow can qualify for war veterans' allowance. Even with respect to a veteran of the Italian army in the first war living in this country who passes away after 20 years' residence, his wife can qualify for war veterans' allowance. But the imperial veterans' widow who finds herself in the position that her husband passed away perhaps six months or a year before he completed the 20 years' residence qualification finds she cannot qualify for the pension.
There are not very many who are affected by this. I know there are two women living close together, both of whom came to this country at about the same time, and one widow gets the pension while the other does not. I think that distinction should be removed. The fact that a man lived in Canada, worked in Canada for perhaps 18 or 19 years, paid taxes in Canada, established a home in Canada and died in Canada surely should be sufficient qualification. He was not out of the country.
I think when that clause was inserted in the first place it was designed to be used in the case of people who came here for four or five years and then went back for three or four years. However, when the residence has been continuous until the time of the man's death, I think the widow should

qualify. It is a very sore point in my part of the country. I know it is in my riding, because we had a lot of imperial veterans who came to that part of the country after the first war.
Another matter I hope the minister has in mind, because it involves national defence and veterans affairs, is the matter of unemployment insurance for men in the service. During the last committee meeting the Legion recommended that we should give consideration to bringing service personnel under the Unemployment Insurance Act on a contributory basis, just like any other employee in industry.


Hugues Lapointe: That is national defence.


Clarence Gillis: That is right, but it has to be handled by both departments. I have talked to the Minister of National Defence about it twice. His department was going to conduct a survey to ascertain if the men in the service wanted to come under unemployment insurance. I do not think that is the proper approach. If you went out and conducted a survey in any industry as to whether the employees wanted to contribute something, they would say no.
I think it is up to the Department of National Defence, with some urging from the Department of Veterans Affairs, to bring this about for a lot of people who enter the service and who do not know where their best interests lie. They sign up for three years or five years, perhaps intending to srtay and make a career of it. Some men going into the service today leave jobs, and there is no civil reinstatement act applicable when they come out. They are unemployed.
Some of them still think the old system prevails, just as it did for the veterans of world war II and Korea. Those fellows got unemployment insurance and these fellows think they should get it, too. I know, because I meet quite a few of them. I tell them if they went into the service after a certain date they are not covered.
The service is going to be a career. It is employment for some of these people and I think they should be protected against unemployment when they come out. In the defence debate I pointed out to the minister that the wastage from the services during the one year 1955 equalled the number that was taken in. What they call wastage are those people who are weeded out, people who cannot qualify. They cannot meet the standards but they are kept in perhaps two, three or four months or a year and then weeded out. The number going out in 1955 equalled the number coming in, and that is quite a large group of men. Most of these fel-
Supply-Veterans Affairs lows would not find employment for some time, and they are not protected by unemployment insurance. I think the approach your department should make to national defence is that if you are going to canvass the services and ask the men if they want to contribute something, the answer will be no.
If this government, after due consideration and a proper analysis of the problem based on statistics, determined that it was in their best interests to protect them, then laws would be passed. There will not be much fault found with them. I know I would not have very much trouble convincing a group of boys in the services today, who are not thinking very much about anything but having a good time-I did the same thing at their age.-that it would be in their best interests to have this. It would only cost a few cents a day, so knock off a few glasses of beer. I know national defence is thinking about it, and I trust the minister will also lend his weight to it.
There is something I said at one committee meeting and I have talked about it several times since, but I want to mention it now. Are the service bureaux across Canada adequately staffed? Within the last year or so we were unfortunate enough to lose the chief pensions advocate at Halifax. He dropped dead as the result of a heart attack. A Mr. C. P. Coleman took his place, and I believe he is a very good man and doing a very good job. He has not been there long. I have had considerable correspondence with him. I have met him, and I think he is an excellent person. I believe the man he replaced went out very quickly because of the stress and strain, the long hours of meticulous work examining these files, assessing evidence, preparing new files, checking forms and trying to get doctors' reports. It entails burning a lot of midnight oil.
They have staffs to help them a little bit, but I do not consider they are adequate. I believe men like Coleman at Halifax, who handles all the Nova Scotia problems, should at least have another top flight man with him. I believe there is plenty of work for two men. We have all seen cases where the commission is blamed for delays, but I believe in fact the point of delay has been in the service bureau office because it was not able to handle the volume of work. I think the minister's department should take a square look at the staffs in the bureau offices to ascertain if they have all the personnel they need.
I have another problem here which is an old, outstanding one. It is one about which perhaps very few people have heard. When
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Supply-Veterans Affairs the pensions investigators were set up after the first war, they were classified as such and paid a certain salary. When the department was streamlined they established welfare offices and welfare officers. The old pensions investigator was reclassified and designed as a pensions visitor. There are only 15 of them left in Canada and they are all getting along toward retirement age. Last year their salary was brought up to that of a grade 4 stenographer, and then it was increased by $300. This still leaves them receiving $800 per year less than their co-workers who are classified as welfare officers.
What is bothering these people is that for many years they did the welfare officers' work the hard way. They worked out of central offices and covered the province by dog team, horse and buggy or motor car where they could. They went from house to house visiting these claimants. Today the welfare offices are on a district basis. The field men do not go out to any great extent. These old pensions investigators would be on the road for months at a time without getting home. The welfare officer living in the district is home at least every night.
I think they are completely justified in asking to be reclassified into the same category as the welfare officer. That differential of $800 in pay should be made up, because it would mean much to them in their superannuation when they reach the age of retirement. Only 15 people are involved in the whole of Canada. To relieve the anxiety that exists in the minds of those 15 people, and the uncertainty of their future with respect to superannuation, the department should give some consideration to ironing out the problem.


Frederick George Hahn: Mr. Chairman, we in this group would join the minister and others in expressing regret at the loss of Dr. Warner. I am satisfied that if the minister has been able to find a suitable successor in Dr. Crawford he is indeed fortunate because specialists are scarce and particularly hard to find. He is to be complimented on his choice.
So far as the group who went to the centennial celebration of the establishment of the Victoria Cross is concerned, we would rejoice in the thought that those who received the reward posthumously were represented by relatives or friends of their families.
I would agree that this department is particularly difficult to administer because it does have a humanitarian aspect and that, of course, calls for a recognition of the sentimental as well as a realistic view of the obligation we have to the men and women who are being served by the administration.
I am sure we all realize it is difficult at times to decide whether a case is one of merit or


whether it should be denied. It makes me often wonder whether one can legislate for humanitarianism.
It is therefore with a great deal of joy that I am able to tell the minister that I am very happy over the co-operation I have had from the department, from the minister, his officials, his parliamentary assistant and others. I think this department is one that has captured the spirit of the government and of the administration, which in this case happens to be to assist rather than to resist those for whom they are trying to work. I feel the minister is to be congratulated on the job he is doing. If he can handle both portfolios of which he is now in charge as well as he has been handling the one department of which he has been in charge in the past, I am satisfied that no one in this country should suffer because of his administering those two departments.
My reason for making these remarks, Mr. Chairman, is an incident that took place during the recess. During that time it was my task to draw to the minister's attention, or to the attention of his officials and his deputy, Mr. Garneau, the case of Mr. Frederick J. Hards, who was suffering from sclerosis. He, his wife and three children had to live entirely on a family allowance cheque which amounted to something like $15 a month. He is a war veteran of the second world war. This young man and his family were suffering, and it was drawn to my attention. The legion branch in New Westminster and other interested bodies immediately got in touch with the minister's office, and within a matter of a week I was pleased to receive a reply indicating that consideration was being given. As Mr. Garneau said in his letter of September 28, 1955:
I am very pleased to state that the board has now come to the conclusion that, in accordance with the act, veterans of world war II who had actually left the shores of Canada before the 8th day of May 1945, and were on their way to an actual theatre of war, may be deemed to have been on service in a theatre of actual war outside the western hemisphere.
I have therefore advised the Vancouver district authority accordingly and I have no doubt that the case will now be dealt with solely on grounds of entitlement as otherwise provided for in the legislation.
The fact that it was dealt with on entitlement was, of course, an important factor and brought to my mind the thought that it is difficult to legislate for humanitarianism. I am sure the department will be pleased to know that the community of Langley in which this young man lived, as well as others who were interested in the case, including myself, are pleased with the work that was done and with the objective way in which this case was treated.

However, as in all departments, all cannot be said to be well so far as every phase is concerned. With respect to this department,
I view with some regret the loss of several trained appraisers we had in the New Westminster office of the Veterans' Land Act. I cannot help but think it is most difficult to replace some of these men from time to time.
I wonder whether they have been replaced, or whether it has been decided that we do not require replacements in the area.
I know there is a very heavy drain on trained personnel by private industry, which pays higher rates and also has other inducements such as the possibility of progression that is not experienced in governmental jobs, and which cannot be offered to civil servants from time to time. That applies particularly to the appraisers in this branch. Therefore I viewed with some concern the possibility that we might have lost some very competent men who were needed in the department.
The question of the plight of the wives of imperial war veterans whose husbands died before completing the 20-year period which would make them eligible for war veterans' allowances under the act was raised and has been raised for many years. In The Legionary magazine of April, 1956, I find on page 35 an article entitled, "A Happy Marriage". I am sure every hon. member here will be pleased to know that the marriage between the imperial veterans and the Canadian Legion has been consummated, for we feel satisfied that in unity lies strength. Possibly the strength of this new union will result in obtaining that which these widows have been trying to get for so many years. I well remember last year and previous occasions when they brought their brief before the committee and presented it in their capable way, and drew to our attention how necessary it was to try to do something for them. This article says in part:
We are, however, disappointed that the dominion government has not yet acted on the many representations requesting entitlement to the benefits of the War Veterans' Allowance Act for those widows of imperial and allied veterans whose service-husbands died before having established the 20-year qualifying residence period.
The article goes on:
We have evidence that the deceased commonwealth veterans for whose widows we now seek help, died in many cases only months and, in some cases, actually only weeks before having lived in Canada for the 20-year qualifying residence period.
Surely we should be in a position to give greater recognition to the few who are left, who have lived here for so many years. Surely we can prove that we in Canada are not as completely hard-hearted as this article would make us out to be. According to the best figures we can obtain there are
Supply-Veterans Affairs only a matter of some 500 to 750 who remain who might be eligible for an allowance. I am sure that many of them are in receipt of the old age pension at this time. Certainly it would not add too materially to the cost if we were to give these widows an allowance under the act as it might be revised. It is not a credit to our country to remain so unrealistic on this point and to be so dogmatic as to insist that because we have not given it up to this time we therefore should not give it in the future. I am satisfied, Mr. Chairman, that if a resolution were brought into this house by the government and a free vote were taken on the question, it would probably receive the greatest support of any piece of legislation that has come before the house to date.
From time to time in committee we have discussed the question and have heard from the ladies who brought the request to our attention. Their request has the support of other Legion groups. On no occasion was there any indication that any party or individual party member would be opposed to granting the assistance asked for by these ladies. It is my sincere hope that this "happy marriage," as it is referred to in this article, will mean this very thing; that it will present the matter in such a light to the government that it will no longer deny these widows that which I believe they have a right to expect.
It was not so very long ago-in fact on November 10,	1950-that the Canadian
Legion, dominion command, in presenting its brief to the Prime Minister made such a recommendation in these terms:
That widows of allied ex-service men be granted war veterans' allowance in cases where the husband died before completing 20 years' residence in Canada provided-(a) that the effective date of her eligibility be 20 years after the husband's arrival to take up permanent residence in Canada, (b) that the widow herself has completed 20 years' residence in Canada, and (c) that the husband and wife were both otherwise eligible.
The brief at that time pointed out that in many cases the husband may have lived in Canada for a lengthy period of time, paid Canadian taxes and seen his sons and daughters serve in the armed forces of this country. What the brief possibly did not point out was that although the husband may have predeceased the wife he did show good intentions in wanting to stay here, in which case, of course, he would continue to be a taxpayer. Because of the fact that many receive the old age pension today, because there are probably only between 500 and 750 who would be eligible, and because I am satisfied there would be no opposition in this house at least, to such a move if it were proposed by the govern-
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Supply-Veterans Affairs ment, I would sincerely urge the minister and the government to consider these factors and grant these people the assistance they have a right to expect.
There is one other matter with which I should like to deal. These matters appear to be minor, and if a committee on veterans' affairs had been set up we probably could have discussed them there more effectively. This is a matter, however, relating to the administration of the War Veterans' Allowance Act. While my time is somewhat limited and I do not wish to spend too much of it on this question, I did note that the minister in making his statement indicated that he had asked for a review of the administration and the application in respect to this assistance fund. He went on to say it would be applicable to those who cannot supplement their allowance through casual earnings.
I was pleased to hear him say that, because these are the people who are most in need of assistance. They have no means of obtaining casual earnings, and I was therefore particularly delighted to hear the minister make that statement. The fact is it has been suggested that probably the fund should be made available automatically to those people if the officials find they are incapable of obtaining casual earning.
Another problem which exists in my own province, because we have a health plan there, is the question of working out some plan with the government of British Columbia to make the terms of the hospital insurance act applicable to those who receive war veterans' allowance, on the same basis as if they were old age pensioners. At the present time the hospital insurance act does not give assistance to those who are in receipt of war veterans' allowance, and it therefore creates a hardship on those people when they go into our provincial hospitals. I am satisfied that if the minister or his officials were to see the department of health in my province in all likelihood they could arrive at some mutually satisfactory and amicable solution.
Another problem which has arisen and caused me some concern is the question of the comfort allowance. I have a case in mind in which a patient was in hospital on two separate occasions, the dates of which are important. The two occasions amounted to a full period of about seven weeks. The dates were from March 29 to April 16, and later from April 30 to May 29. As I understand it, under clause-12 treatment it is customary for a patient to be eligible for comfort allowance of $7 per month providing he is in hospital on or about the 27th of the month. He must be there, of course, to receive the cheque.


You will note that the first date was March 29, which was shortly after the 27th of the month. He left the hospital on April 16, before the end of the following month. This patient was not in hospital at a time which enabled him to appear on the list of those eligible for the comfort allowance cheque. On April 30, the date of his next entry into hospital, he was again not eligible because he came in too late; and while he was there on May 29 to be registered, he failed to collect because he was not there on the first of the month when the paymaster came around and he therefore received nothing. As I understand it, on an earlier occasion before the changes were made in the regulations the cheque would have been mailed out to him. Apparently that procedure is not being followed now and this patient was out of luck on both occasions because he happened to enter or depart from the hospital at an unfortuitous time.
The minister indicated, I believe, that the 1956 report is now being edited. There is one item in the report dated March 31, 1955, which interested me as it compared with the 1954 report. On page 11 of the 1955 report and on page 14 of the 1954 report are set out the number of veterans attending universities and vocational schools. We find that in 1954 there were 574 attending universities, which number had dropped to 377 in 1955. The 1956 report is not available as yet, but the indication is that the number attending universities is declining. The number attending vocational schools increased from 111 in 1954 to 346 in 1955. The over-all figures are 686 for 1954 and 713 for 1955.
There seems to be a definite trend toward the vocational schools, and I am wondering why the emphasis is that way, especially in view of the fact that we are so much in need of trained university graduates. Section 9 (1) (b) of the Veterans Rehabilitation Act states that a veteran must commence his course at university within one year and three months of his discharge.
The reason I raise this matter is that I have in mind the case of a young veteran who waited for a longer period before applying for assistance to go to university. Here again I must say that we have been told from time to time that we are in need of trained men, particularly those having vocational or university training. Such men are needed to aid us in our competition with communist countries. Yet this man has been refused the opportunity to attend university when he desires to do so, merely because application was not made within one year and three months after discharge.

I know this young man and I know he would be an asset to this country, even more so if he were fully trained rather than only partially trained as he is today. I would ask that the government review this section of the act. If it is felt that the act should not be changed, then I suggest that each case should be studied on its merits. With the initiative this young man has shown in past years, and with the ability I know he has, he could make a success of life. He simply wants to have that chance which is being denied him because the time limit has elapsed. I submit that these cases should be given special attention, and the act should provide for the consideration of each individual case.
I am satisfied that if that were done we would be in a position to continue to train many veterans in the future, and in so doing would soon be in a dominant position as far as education in this country is concerned.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to appear to be holding up my colleague's estimates, but in view of what he said in his excellent statement this afternoon and what other hon. members have said I think I should carry out an assignment which was given to me by a number of my fellow travellers last week on the very memorable trip we made to England. I should like to acknowledge, as I am sure the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich would if he were here, what was done for us.
I might note in passing that the hon. member is carrying out a mission of great importance and interest to veterans generally, near the city of Mons of armistice fame. In August, 1914 the British Lancers reached a point to the northeast of Mons and then began the retreat. On November 11, 1918 the third Canadian division surrounded Mons and the 116th Canadian battalion, commanded by Lt. Col. George Pearkes, V.C., reached exactly the same area as that which had been occupied by the Lancers. The regimental association of the 116th has since made a plaque which the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich is unveiling, with the co-operation of the Department of National Defence, on the 10th of this month. It will stand alongside a similar plaque of the 9th Lancers.
6, 1956	5761
Supply-Veterans Affairs
On the hon. member's behalf and on behalf of those whom the minister has mentioned I should like to express our appreciation to him and to his officials, both on this side and on the other side of the water. What was done was appreciated by the next of kin and all of us who had transportation arranged for us. There were other things done which were also greatly appreciated. Well before the time of departure officials of the Department of Veterans Affairs worked out detailed plans. An official accompanied the party over, and then on the other side arrangements were made which added greatly to the pleasure of everybody concerned.
I am sure the committee will be interested in knowing that those who were there as holders of the cross appreciated the fact that these arrangements had been made for the next of kin and relatives of those who had died. Everything was well arranged and the occasion was one of great importance and great significance. I should also say that the co-ordination between the Department of Veterans Affairs and the district administrator and his staff on the other side and the staff of the Department of National Defence on the other side was excellent. A bus was available at the hotel on every occasion, and either a representative of veterans affairs or a good staunch corporal of provost went through the hotel to make sure everyone got on the bus and got back safely on the return trip.
Last Sunday going down to Brookwood cemetery in the Bramshot area in the heavy rain such service was most noticeable and valuable. I should like to congratulate the minister and the department for the way their plans were carried out.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Green:: Could we have the business for Monday?


Clarence Decatur Howe: On Monday we will have a supply motion.


[Stage Direction]
It being three minutes after six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Questions

[Stage Direction]
The following answer, deposited with the Clerk of the house, is printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Wylie: 1.	What was the total cost of construction of the 100 wartime houses known as project 3/48, Medicine Hat, Alberta?
2.	What was the average cost per unit (a) type
A & B; (b) type C?	.
3.	What was the total amount of expenditure on the upkeep of this project for painting, repairs, etc., to March 31, 1956?
4.	What is the total amount of rent collected from this project up to March 31, 1956?
5.	What is the total amount of taxes paid the city of Medicine Hat to December 31, 1955?
Answer by:	Mr. Bourgei, Parliamentary
Assistant, for the Minister of Public Works:
1.	$668,614.08.
2.	Types A and B, $6,305.11; type C, $6,849.44.
3.	Expenditure for painting, repairs, etc., $17,995.00; expenditure to cover instalment payments, for retirement of moneys borrowed to finance construction of the project, $175,702.06; administration expenses, $22,350.00.
4.	The gross potential revenue from this project from completion of construction to March 31, 1956 is $298,404.34.
5.	Grants in lieu of taxes were paid to the city of Medicine Hat in respect of project 3/48 to December 31, 1955, in a total amount of $48,102.03.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

[Stage Direction]
Canadian hydrographic service-
216. Administration, operation and maintenance, including Canada's annual contribution of $4,200 to the international hydrographic bureau, $3,017,362.
Map compilation and reproduction-
220.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $923,986.
221.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $38,400.
Geological surveys-
222.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including the expenses of the national advisory committee on research in the geological sciences, an amount of $1,875 for Canada's share of the cost of the committee on mineral resources and geology, London, England, and an amount of $40,000 for grants in aid of geological research in Canadian universities, $2,314,954.
223.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $169,000.
Mines branch-
224.	Mines branch administration, $95,968.
Mineral resources investigations (including the former investigations of radioactive ores)-
225.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $12,500 to the Canadian institute of mining and metallurgy to assist in defraying the cost of the sixth empire mining and metallurgical congress to be held in Canada in 1957, $2,833,302.
226.	Construction or acquisition of equipment, $226,085.
227.	To provide for payments to McGill University in connection with the development of a coal-fired gas turbine, $50,000.
Geographical branch-
228.	Geographical branch-administration, operation and maintenance, including a grant of $250 to the Canadian association of geographers, $283,386.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations-
229.	Administration, operation and maintenance, including membership fee of $500 to the international astronomical union and a grant of $3,500 to the royal astronomical society of Canada, $542,915.
230.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $122,738.
231.	Dominion astrophysical observatory, Victoria, B.C., $148,597.
General-
232.	To provide for purchases of air photography and the expenses of the interdepartmental committee on air surveys, including purchases of equipment, $1,500,000.
Dominion coal board-
233.	Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $116,660.
234.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $9,210,250.
Mines branch-
650.	Mines branch administration-further amount
required, $5,000.	.
651.	To provide for payments to McGill University in connection with the development of a coal-fired gas turbine-further amount required, $50,000.
Dominion observatories-
Dominion observatory, Ottawa and field stations
652.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment-further amount required, $20,000.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, July 9, 1956