1956-07-13

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs if he is ready to make a statement concerning developments in the political situation in French Indo-China and if those developments are such as arose out of an agreement signed by Soviet Russia and Cambodia and would be likely to have an effect in prolonging the stay there of the Canadian commission?


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, there have been no recent developments in Indo-China that I know of which would affect one way or another the stay of the commission in that country. I may be making a statement on the general position there when my estimates are under consideration. So far as the agreement between Russia and Cambodia is concerned, the information we have received is that no such agreement has been reached although as a result of the visit of a Cambodian representative to Moscow in the last few weeks it was agreed between the two countries to take steps to increase trade between them. There was no form of political agreement signed as far as we know.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Did the trade agreement
involve the acceptance of economic assistance by Cambodia from Soviet Russia?


Lester Bowles Pearson: As far as we are informed, there was no formal agreement, but there were discussions with a view to increasing trade. I understand that in those discussions the Soviet union may have made offers of economic assistance to Cambodia, but I have no information that any such offers have been accepted.


REQUEST FOR FAVOURABLE CONSIDERA- TION OF SHIPMENTS OF SABRE AIRCRAFT
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. George A. Drew (Leader of fhe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Having regard to the opinion expressed by the Secretary of State for External Affairs that the United States, Great Britain and France would not
look unfavourably upon the delivery of fighter aircraft to Israel, and in view of the recognized unbalance created in that area by the delivery of arms from communist countries to Egypt, will the government now give favourable consideration to the request of the government of Israel for the delivery of fighter aircraft to that country?


Righi Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, there are still conversations and discussions going on about the possibility of doing something that would not be an exclusively Canadian action in the supply of arms to Israel. These discussions are still in progress.


CREATION OF PRECEDENTS IN CONNECTION WITH ALLEGED VIOLATION OF RULES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Caslleden (Yorkton):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the government to take the necessary action to prevent those violations of the rules of this house which occurred during the pipe-line debate from becoming precedents for similar actions in future parliaments of Canada?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I know of no violations of the rules that would require any action by the government. The rules of the house are usually dealt with by a committee appointed by the house because they are not rules made by the government but rules made by the house itself.


REPORTED ISSUANCE OF INSTRUCTIONS FOR GENERAL ELECTION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Does the information I have received, that returning officers in the various constituencies have been instructed to do the necessary preliminaries preparatory to an election and that urban enumerators are to be recommended by August 15, indicate that the government is about to comply with the request of the opposition for an early dissolution?
Righi Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (Prime
Minister): The information contained in the first part of the hon. gentleman's question is not to my knowledge. I have had no
5932	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry communication with the chief electoral officer and I know of no instructions that have been given to the effect mentioned by the hon. gentleman.


John George Diefenbaker: Then I would ask the Prime Minister to communicate with him, because he has given those instructions.


UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. C. W. Carter (Burin-Burgeo):: Can the
Minister of Fisheries inform the house as to what progress is being made by the interdepartmental committee on the question of extending unemployment insurance benefits to fishermen?


Hon. James Sinclair (Minister of Fisheries):: Whilst the Department of Fisheries is very much interested in this problem, it is primarily a question for the Minister of Labour to answer.


Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour):: That subject has been receiving consideration for quite a long time. The question is now before the government. At the moment I am not in a position to make any further comment than that which I have made in recent months.


ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES INQUIRY AS TO SETTING UP OF CANADA COUNCIL
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. George H. Hees (Broadview):: I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. Would the Prime Minister care to comment on the statement in a speech yesterday in St. Catharines by Mr. John C. Parkin, president of the Canadian arts council, as reported by the Canadian Press, when he said there are many able men ready to help the federal government set up a body to encourage the arts in Canada and that the Prime Minister made an incorrect appraisal when he said recently in the House of Commons that suitable men to head such an organization are not easily found?


Right Hon.  L. S. Si. Laurenl@Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, I hope the statement of the gentleman who spoke in St. Catharines will be borne out by the facts. This matter is still receiving consideration, and we shall be very happy when we can bring a recommendation to parliament to feel assured that we shall have no difficulty in manning the council.


George Harris Hees: Might I ask a supplementary question? Has the Prime Minister been in


touch with the president of the Canadian arts council to find out whom they would suggest as a suitable person to act on such a body?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: No, there has been no communication with that gentleman since the speech in question.


George Harris Hees: Has there been any communication with that gentleman before the speech in question to find out whom he would suggest?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Not from me, Mr. Speaker.


George Harris Hees: Has anybody in the government communicated with him?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Not to my
knowledge, Mr. Speaker.


George Harris Hees: Then might I ask the Prime Minister whether the only people that are asked are Liberals?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: No, Mr. Speaker.


ATOMIC ENERGY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Alexander Drew: I wish to direct a question to the Prime Minister, and I do so more by way of notice than otherwise, in the absence of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the very dramatic information given by the British representatives at the fifth world power conference at Vienna to the effect that the cost of an atomic power station in relation to the power it produces is now little more than that for a modern steam station, will the government review the situation in the light of that information and consider the possibility of a plan which would make electric power from this source available to parts of Canada that are not served by hydroelectric energy?


Right Hon. L. S. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman has suggested, I will take this as notice. However, I can say immediately that the government will do everything possible to further the research that is now being carried out in connection with this power plant that is being established here in Canada. If we can ascertain data that will support the optimistic view that power can be produced from that energy at, as the hon. gentleman has suggested, about half of what it costs to produce power from steam otherwise, it will be a very happy development and will certainly stimulate the progress of the industrial development that is taking place

in Canada and make it easier to have it more widespread throughout the country.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, without in any way attempting to enter into a debate on the subject, I would point out that the statement was accompanied by the declaration that in Britain, as a result of the developments that have taken place there, they are greatly expanding their construction of atomic generated electricity plants. I would hope that with this declaration by official representatives to that effect the government will give consideration to the possibility of the application of the same considerations to our plans in this country in those areas that would be benefited.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The government of the United Kingdom and its officials are in constant communication with our government and our officials in respect to all these projects, and I can assure the hon. gentleman that we will be very happy to take full advantage of what can be demonstrated by the work that is now being done in the United Kingdom towards the setting up of electric plants based on atomic energy.



PIPE LINES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce but in his absence perhaps I might put it to the Prime Minister. Is the government aware that Mr. Victor G. Bartram of Montreal, who a few days ago was named general manager of the Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corporation, was at that time a director of certain companies related by share ownership to Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited? Does the Prime Minister know whether Mr. Bartram has resigned any of these directorates? If not, does the government think it appropriate to have as general manager of a crown corporation a gentleman who is interested in the affairs of the private corporation with which the crown corporation will have to deal?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: As the hon. gentleman has suggested, what he has stated this morning will receive consideration from the government.



CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: should like to direct a question to the
Supply-Agriculture
Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. What is the present situation with regard to the application of the Metlakatla Indians to become enfranchised? Has any report been received from Mr. Justice Wilson, and is it a fact that the Indians have now expressed the desire not to be enfranchised?


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Some little time ago I appointed, as I have a right to do under the Indian Act, a committee headed by Mr. Justice Wilson of the Supreme Court of British Columbia to examine this request for enfranchisement which had come from the council of the Metlakatla band some considerable time ago. The committee is still in existence and up to now had made no report.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. E. Robinson (Bruce):: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Justice I wish to direct a question to the house leader, the hon. member for Grey-Bruce. First, what is the reason for the delay in appointing a judge for Bruce county? Second, does he need any assistance in arriving at the appointment of somebody from the local district?


Hon. W. E. Harris (Minisier of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I shall draw the hon. member's question to the attention of the Minister of Justice for an answer.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Administration service-
1. Departmental administration (including advisory committee on agricultural services). $670,015.
The Chairman:: House again in committee of supply, resolution No. 1, Department of Agriculture. This vote is found at page 4 of the blue book of estimates and the details commence at page 87. Shall the resolution carry?


Mr. Charlton:: Mr. Chairman, I make no apology for making a few remarks on this first item after listening to the Minister of Agriculture in the last five or ten minutes of his speech the last day these estimates were before the house. I cannot leave those remarks unanswered without being challenged, although they were challenged by the hon. member for Wentworth on the day they were made. I regret very much that the minister is not more accurate as to the

Supp ly-A griculture
expenditures of his department now in relation to previous years. I just want to quote what he said as reported in Hansard of May 11 at page 3830:
The suggestion that has been made by quite a number that we should be doing something for agriculture is answered by the fact that in the last 20 years we have spent very considerably more on agriculture than was ever spent in any previous 20 years. As a matter of fact we are and have been for a considerable length of time spending ten times as much as was ever spent by any other government, either Liberal or Conservative.
Then a little bit further down the page after an interruption by the hon. member for Wentworth:
In view of the fact that we have been spending that much we are at least attempting to do something for agriculture.
Then further down the page again:
When the Conservatives were in power they did not spend very much on agriculture.
Then in the next column:
Down here in the low left comer of the chart is where the farm income was when the Conservatives were in power, and ever since the Liberals have been in power it has gone constantly right up and up to the top right hand corner of the chart.
Mr. Chairman, I have here some figures in the form of a chart which I should like the consent of the house to place on Hansard. They are bureau of statistics figures; they are authentic, I can assure you; and they are the relative expenditures by the Department of Agriculture in comparison with the revenues over the last 25 years. Have I the consent of the committee to place this chart on Hansard?


William Alfred Robinson: Has the hon. member indicated the source of the table?


John Alpheus Charlton: The bureau of statistics.


William Alfred Robinson: Has the hon. member leave to place this table on Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Alpheus Charlton: The table is as follows:



FEDERAL GOVERNMENT

[Stage Direction]
EXPENDITURES OF THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE March 31, 1930 to March 31, 1957
(Thousands of dollars)
-	Ordinary	Special	War	Total	Total Revenues of Canada	%of total Revenue	-
					$	%	
1930 	10,245	10,245	453,007,129	2-2	3010,119	10,119	357,720,435	2-8	3110,211	10,211	334,508,081	30	328,066	8,066	311,735,286	2-5	336,996	6,996	324,660,590	2-1	347,107	7,107	361,973,764	1-9	35-103A 	9,399	239	9,638	372,595,996	2-5	361Q37 	8,741	1,049	9,790	454,153,747	21	371Q28 	9,016	1,937	10,953	516,692,749	21	38\ Q3Q 	9,528	3,694	13,222	502,171,354	2-6	391Q40 	11,817	3,905	1,376	17,098	562,093,459	30	401941 	8,593	4,490	13,083	872,169,645	1-5	41-1Q42 	8,430	4,108	27,387	39,925	1,488,536,343	2-7	421943	8,492	29,967	19,980	58,439	2,249,496,177	2-5	431944 	8,841	37,189	64,293	110,323	2,765,017,713	3-9	441945 	9,424	7,169	88,054	104,647	2,687,334,799	3-8	451946 	10,319	17,081	82,978	110,378	3,013,185,074	3-6	461947 	13,300	11,091	71,116	95,507	3,007,876,313	3-1	471948 	16,311	30,069	33,233	79,613	2,871,746,109	2-7	481949	20,376	18,219	23,178	61,773	2,771,395,075	2-2	491950 	25,296	27,539	22,211	75,046	2,580,140,615	2-9	501951	49,826	92,959	142,785	3,112,535,948	4-0	511Q52	50;247	16,887	67,134	3,980,908,652	1-6	52*1953	58,875	47,836	106,711	4,360,822,789	2-4	531954 	54,406	53,955	108,361	4,396,319,583	2-0	541955 	63,745	18,059	81,804	4,123,513,300	1-9	55-1956	78,381	4,385,400,000	1957	77,733	(Above from Dominion	For years ending March 31, 1943 to 1950	(Above taken from Public Accts.Bureau of Statistics)	P.A. lists breakdown of above categories	page 108-)
under Departmental heading-For years 1951-55 subtotal for Special given and thus shown separately - For Years prior to 1943-Ordinary shows amounts listed as Departmental Totals-and where poss ible figures were picked up for Special and War when Departmental distribution
1 Estimated.
was shown.
[Stage Direction]
Just to make a few comments before placing it on the record, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say this. With the exception of one year- and that is the year 1935,-the Conservative government in power from 1930 to 1935 spent better than two per cent of the gross revenue of the government on agriculture. In view of the circumstances during that five-year period I think that is a very good record in comparison with the record since that time. On the other hand, in 1941, which is an all time low in that 25-year period, this government only spent 1 [DOT] 5 per cent of the total national revenue of Canada on agriculture. In 1952, which was considered one of the best agricultural years we have ever had so far as revenue is concerned, this government only spent 1-6 per cent.
Now, as I said before, in the poorest year from 1930 to 1935 inclusive, the Conservative government spent 1-9 per cent. In all other cases it ranges from 2-1 per cent to 3 per cent of the total revenue. Therefore, when the minister says his government has spent more than any other government, it is not true and I hope that the members opposite will take cognizance of this fact and not be misled by the minister's assertion on that day. More than that, Mr. Chairman, these figures include the ordinary expenditures of the Department of Agriculture, the special expenditures and the war expenditures. In 1951, I want to be fair, it increased to 4 per cent but included in that 4 per cent was $92,959,000 or practically $93 million that was of a special nature. I might say that probably if the minister spent as much time on the administrative matters of his department as he does on politics he would be more conversant with the facts regarding the case.
I have a resolution dealing with the feed situation passed by the Simcoe county council and endorsed by the Brant county council which I should like to read to the house. This is a serious situation, and one which will be more serious this year than it has been in past years. The resolution reads:
Whereas because of the unfavourable seeding conditions in the spring of 1956 there is likely to be a heavy demand for western feed grains to supply Ontario farmers this fall;
And whereas the action of the wheat board in filling the bay port and lakehead elevators with export wheat and malting barley in the fall of 1955 seriously disrupted the movement of feed grains by limiting the amount of storage available;
And whereas this action on the part of the wheat board increased the cost of feed grain to Ontario farmers by making it necessary to use rail transported grain;
Be it therefore resolved that the agriculture committee of Simcoe county council respectfully request the dominion government to take any action necessary to ensure that sufficient feed grain is stored in bay port elevators before the
67509-377J
Supply-Agriculture
close of navigation in the fall of 1956 to adequately supply the requirements of Ontario farmers until the opening of navigation in 1957.
I am sure, Mr. Chairman, anyone who has travelled anywhere in eastern Canada in the last two months must realize the seriousness of this situation, where field after field of spring grain was flooded out, the fields worked up again and sown to other crops. I hope the government does recognize this fact and take suitable action.
Now, I am sure that the turkey growers of Canada would want me to say that they appreciate the action the government finally took after many long years in changing the tariff regulations in order to protect the turkey growers of this country. It was long overdue. They would wish me to show their appreciation of the government for finally taking this action.
There are two other things, Mr. Chairman, that have not been acted upon as yet. It follows upon sessional paper 141-H, dated May 15, and has to do with grading regulations and packaging regulations affecting turkeys coming into Canada. According to the answer I received, grading regulations affecting turkeys imported into Canada are the Canadian regulations and they must adhere to those regulations. I am informed by reliable sources that in all cases that is not the fact. Imported turkeys are sold in Canada under grade; that is, the grades do not conform with our Canadian grades standard and there is some laxity in checking those turkeys as they cross the border to make sure that they are up to the Canadian grades standard. I hope the government will check on this matter and see that they do conform to the Canadian grades.
With regard to packaging, packaging comes under the Food and Drugs Act. I am told by reliable sources that on some of those turkeys imported into Canada there is a cellophane bag that practically covers the whole breast of the turkey, with colouring on the outside of the bag. As I understand it, that is against Canadian regulations. I have not seen one of those turkeys myself, but I am reliably informed that was the case last year. I hope the government will take suitable steps to stop this practice.
In his speech on May 11, as recorded at page 3819 of Hansard, the minister brought to our attention a project to sell milk in schools. I would like the minister to state further actually what that project was and whether it has been brought to the attention of the provinces, and whether the plan would be taken to the provinces instead of waiting for the provinces to suggest it to the government. If the provinces knew that such a project was to be undertaken by the federal
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Agriculture
government, I am sure that many of them would take up the suggestion and act upon it.
Another matter that I should like to bring to the attention of the government has to do with the setup of the Department of Agriculture. Several years ago the Canadian veterinary medical association sent a resolution to the minister regarding the setup of the production service. I know the minister is aware of this fact. The resolution was brought to his attention in 1949. Something has been done since in the way of moving the animal pathology and research division from the science service to production service. That is a step in the right direction and is appreciated by the association, but their request went farther than that. Their request was that the animal pathology and research division and the health of animals division be placed in one separate branch under the direction of a veterinarian. This in no way has anything to do with the personnel of the branch; it is in no way critical of the personnel. I do not want to be misrepresented as suggesting that. They have had very good co-operation from the director of the production service. They appreciate what was done, but the feeling among veterinarians across Canada and among members of the association across Canada is that the veterinarians in the government service could do a better job for Canada if this were under one branch of the department. I think the minister will agree with me on that. The fact that there are many in the department who are members of the organization to which I refer does add force to this resolution that they ask be given consideration.
I believe since 1949 the minister has had several letters. I understand that there was a period when it was not desirable to do this and the minister knows about it, but I think the situation has resolved itself. If the minister would give consideration to this it would be appreciated by the Canadian association.
Item agreed to.
3. Contributions to commonwealth agricultural bureaux in a total amount of £34,928, notwithstanding that payments may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of December, 1955, which is, $97,799.
Mr. White (Middlesex East):: Would the minister indicate how this vote is used and for what purposes?


Mr. Gardiner:: These contributions are made to commonwealth bureaux which are set up in commonwealth countries to deal with research. Our contribution is indicated in this item.


Harry Oliver White: Has it anything to do with marketing, export and import of agricultural products?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is purely scientific; it has nothing to do with marketing.


Mr. Montgomery:: Is the research carried on in different countries or is it centralized?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is one set up here in Ottawa and another in England.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Science service-
Science service administration-
4. Operation and maintenance, including an amount of $134,025 for grants in aid of agricultural research in universities and other scientific organizations in Canada, $863,569.
Mr. Nowlan:: This item includes an amount of $134,000 for grants in aid of agricultural research in universities. Would that be paid to universities apart from the agricultural colleges themselves which are operated by the provincial governments? To what universities have these grants been made and in what amounts? Without too much detail, could we have a breakdown?


James Garfield Gardiner: Generally speaking, this research is carried on in the parts of universities associated with agricultural activity. Some universities have agricultural colleges on their campuses. This is true of universities in western Canada. The work being carried on by way of research is aided under this vote.


George Clyde Nowlan: Could the minister give us the names of some of the universities without going into minute details?


James Garfield Gardiner: The list here shows the University of Ottawa, Ottawa; Ontario Agricultural College, Guelph-even though it has that separate campus at Guelph it is still done through this school-the school at Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere, Quebec; University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon; University of Manitoba, Winnipeg; University of Alberta, Edmonton; University of Saskatchewan; University of Manitoba; Ontario Agricultural College; Macdonald College; University of Alberta; University of British Columbia; University of New Brunswick, Fredericton; University of British Columbia, Vancouver; McGill University, Montreal; University of Alberta; McGill University; University of Saskatchewan; Macdonald College; Hamilton College, McMaster University, Hamilton; University of British Columbia, Vancouver; University of British Columbia.


Harry Oliver White: That list does not include the science service laboratory at Western university, London. Does that come under a separate item?


James Garfield Gardiner: We operate that one directly.


Mr. Smith (Battle River-Camrose):: Is any
progress being made in developing a variety of wheat which is rust resistant? It will be remembered that two years ago our wheat, particularly in Alberta, was practically ruined by rust.


James Garfield Gardiner: Work is being carried on all the time at the laboratory in Winnipeg and efforts are being made to keep ahead of rust attacks. There is an improved variety of Selkirk which is not yet ready for distribution.


James Alexander Smith: How
soon may we expect this new variety of Selkirk wheat to be available for seed purposes?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is still in the testing stage and it will take two or three years to bring it to the point where it can be distributed. As all hon. members from the west know, there must be a multiplication period after it has been determined that a variety is resistant. That is handled by sending seed to California to double the speed in getting quantities available for distribution, but will take two or three years after the tests are complete.


Mr. Blackmore:: Is any progress being made in finding a rust-resistant sunflower? The minister will remember that there was considerable damage to the sunflower industry in Manitoba through rust.


James Garfield Gardiner: A rust-resistant sunflower has been developed and is being utilized in the Morden area of Manitoba.


Harry Oliver White: What studies are being carried on at the science service laboratory at Western University?


James Garfield Gardiner: Studies are being made of the utilization of new chemicals in the development of plant life. That is the main investigation being carried on.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
6.	Bacteriology, $242,748.
John Alpheus Charlton: What research is being carried on in relation to butter held in storage and how much butter in storage has been down-graded upon leaving storage?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not the exact figure of the amount that has been graded down, but it is less than 5 per cent. Of course, the grading is done by our professional graders, who grade the butter in and grade it out of plants. They use the same practice in grading it out as they use in grading it in. All the tests that are made to determine whether or not the butter is grade A1 are used in both cases.	[DOT]
Supply-Agriculture


John Alpheus Charlton: What happens to the butter that is graded down and that does not come up to the grade A standard?


James Garfield Gardiner: Whatever is sold out is sold at whatever grades it is graded to. The only butter of which we take delivery under the plan is grade 1. Then, when anyone purchases butter, it is delivered as grade 1. But, if there is grade 2 butter there or if there is butter that is not fit for human consumption, it is sold just as what it is.


John Alpheus Charlton: I hope that butter of grade 2 or lower does not find itself in the retail market to be sold as butter, because there is nothing that would destroy the butter market quicker than to have the low grade butter placed in stores and sold. I hope that matter is very closely watched and dealt with by the government, because it could be very serious.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand the grade 2 butter is only sold by the board to manufacturers who utilize it in making candy and things like that.


George Clyde Nowlan: How long does the butter stay at grade 1 after it has been sold? I am thinking of some experiences a client of mine had who bought grade 1 butter from storage in one province and had it sent to a plant in Nova Scotia. When it arrived there and was graded it was found to be substantially below grade 1. There was a question as to how long it had been in storage and as to what adjustment might be made by the board. What is the procedure with respect to that?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have no information with regard to that case, of course, but it is very difficult to determine just how long butter is held after it is purchased. I think I said here once before, after making inquiries, that it will keep at least as long as a year and a half if it has been properly made in the first place. There might be mistakes in grading when it comes in which result in butter going bad, or there might be conditions in the storage that result in its going bad, but, as has already been said, the full quantity is less than 5 per cent over the period in which we have been handling it. So not very much of it has gone bad.


George Clyde Nowlan: What does the board do as far as adjustments are concerned in such cases when butter has been sold as grade 1 and the inspector refuses to take it? Have you had any difficulty in getting adjustments from the vendor of that butter?


James Garfield Gardiner: The responsibility there is on the person who purchased the butter and held it in the meantime. If it is ten days

Supply-Agriculture
later, something may have happened to it. We do not take responsibility for that.


George Clyde Nowlan: In the case I was speaking of, you did not hold it at all; it was bought and delivered, and before it was taken out of the car the departmental inspector inspected it and refused to pass it at the grade at which it had been bought in another province. He did not take delivery of it.


James Garfield Gardiner: It depends on whether he bought it directly from us or from a dealer. If he bought it from a dealer and it was butter that had been in storage before, it would be a matter between him and the dealer. If he got it directly from us, I presume that until it was delivered it was not his butter and he would then get it at whatever it graded.


Mr. Philpoii:: If the minister is considering any changes next year in the arrangements about the subsidized butter that goes to the charitable institutions, I might say I have had very warm letters of approval of the government's policy in that regard and I certainly hope the arrangements are continued, notwithstanding the apparent lack of success in convincing the governments in some of the provinces that they should quit using margarine and use the subsidized butter.


James Garfield Gardiner: I should like to correct an impression that might have gone out as a result of the statement I made some time ago before all the information was available, to the effect that the increase in consumption had not been high but had been comparatively low. I have some doubts as to whether that is a correct indication of what happened. The annual report which is now being prepared indicates that there was an increase of about 9 per cent in the amount of butter consumed under this plan, which some people might consider to be worth while. I may say I have had similar letters from institutions indicating that they were very much concerned that the plan should be continued, and up until now it is being continued.


Gage Workman Montgomery: I wonder whether the minister would tell us this. When the butter is purchased from the trade and taken off the market, where is it stored? Is it stored in a government warehouse or in various places around the country in the trade's warehouses?


James Garfield Gardiner: The greater part of it remains stored right where it is when the butter comes from the market. We have a standing offer of 58 cents. If the butter comes to us because no one else will buy it at 58 cents, then it is put into storage that
rMr. Gardiner.]
is satisfactory to us. We have no storage in which to put it. Sometimes, when we realize that the butter will be utilized in some other part of Canada than where it was produced, we may ask to have it stored in that other part of Canada.


Gage Workman Montgomery: Is it marked in any way
by the department's inspectors when it is taken over?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is all branded with the date of manufacture, the plant that manufactured it and so on, but the butter is held by the government.


Mr. Stanton:: It is rather late this year, minister whether boys' and girls' camps throughout the dominion qualify to receive the butter at the lower price.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am not certain whether they would qualify but I understand they have not purchased any butter under the plan.


Hayden Stanton: I should like to ask the
minister a supplementary question. What is the minimum amount of butter that the board will issue under that plan?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have not set a minimum. We have simply set the type of institution to which we will sell the butter at the low rate, and I presume that the institutions using the butter buy all their butter from us at that rate rather than pay the extra 20 cents. I should say that they buy it from the regular supplier. We are notified as to the amount and we make the payments to the dealer.


Hayden Stanton: It is rather late this year, but if the plan is carried on for another year would the minister consider allowing boys' and girls' camps across the dominion to avail themselves of the opportunity of obtaining that butter?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is no doubt that if they made application it would be considered. I am not in a position to state whether or not it would be agreed that that is the kind of institution that it is intended should be covered.


John Horne Blackmore: Would the minister tell us what portion of this money under item 6 is being spent in the four western provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is item No. 6?


John Horne Blackmore: Yes.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand there is very little of it being spent. Most of it is being spent here in Ottawa.


John Horne Blackmore: Could the minister outline to the committee the general branches of bacteriology which are being studied?


James Garfield Gardiner: The activities of the division may be divided into three categories, namely, research, direct service, and regulatory control work. Research, the chief function of the division, is carried on chiefly in co-operation with the experimental farm service and other divisions of science service along the following lines: Dairy bacteriology, food microbiology, soil microbiology, general microbiology. Direct service involves the analysis of samples, legume seed inoculants and control of central experimental farm diary operation. The regulatory control work is concerned with official quality control of various products coming within the scope of acts and regulations administered by the Department of Agriculture and to note conformity with standards. The products included are legume inoculants, edible gelatine, canned tomato products, frozen and dehydrated vegetables and fruits, powdered and frozen eggs, pasteurized honey and powdered milk.


Mr. Gauthier (Porineuf):: I should like to support the request made by the member for Vancouver South in connection with the policy of selling butter to institutions. I have received various representations from institutions in my county which are very anxious to hear from the minister and the government that this policy will be continued.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7.	Botany and plant pathology, $1,474,719.
John Alpheus Charlton: Can the minister tell me whether anything new has been discovered to stop loose smut in wheat? The old method was pretty cumbersome and I understand there have been some changes and that there are some new fungicides. What is the latest development in that regard?


James Garfield Gardiner: The old treatment, of course, was the bluestone treatment which was quite general, but control of smuts of the cereal grains can be done by seed treatment. The hot water treatment is the only one that will control the loose smuts of wheat and barley, but on account of the special equipment required for this treatment and the necessity of controlling the water temperature accurately the application of the treatment is restricted to relatively small lots of high quality seed intended for increase.
A recent development that has taken place, as yet on a small scale, in both eastern and western Canada is the provision in certain localities of special equipment for treating farmers' seed with hot water. The plant pathological laboratory at Edmonton has experimented with considerable success with a simplified chemical treatment and a cold water soap treatment for the control of loose
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smut of barley. The Saskatoon laboratory has recently developed an embryo test to detect smut of barley that promises to give more reliable results than the present method of field inspection.
Then there is formaldehyde, which is a treatment that has been used for a long period. The treatment continued to be the common treatment for the control of bunt of wheat, loose and covered smuts of oats and covered and false loose smut of barley. When properly applied it is effective but it has the disadvantage that it frequently results in seed injury. Recent advances in seed treatment materials have resulted in the general use of organic mercury compounds applied to the seed as a dust, a liquid or in a concentrated paste usually referred to as a slurry. The organic mercury compounds used for seed treatment in Canada are Ceresan dust, Lay-tosan dust, Ceresan M applied as a slurry and Panogen applied as a liquid. I find as much difficulty with these terms as the Minister of Trade and Commerce did with his.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is there not another one, Spergon, used for loose smut? I understand they are using a very low concentration and soaking it in water at room temperature.


James Garfield Gardiner: They are experimenting with a lot of others, including Spergon, and I do not know when the department will be prepared to make a recommendation.


John Alpheus Charlton: You have no definite recommendation on that one yet?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I understand not.


George Clyde Nowlan: As the minister knows, item 7 deals with one phase of our agricultural economy which is of great interest in the apple industry, the pathological studies that are made in that regard. I was wondering just what the breakdown of this item would be. Actually the experimental farm at Kent-ville has been specializing largely in the last few years and under the recent management in dealing with problems of pathology, botany and fungicides, everything that has to do with the apple industry, rather than operating as a general experimental farm, although it does have some livestock and some poultry. Is there a separate allocation under this item? Can the minister tell us how much of the study of botany and plant pathology at the experimental farm at Kent-ville is done under this item or is it included in the experimental farm service votes? If it is a separate item, I should like the minister to give us a breakdown and indicate how much of the vote of $1,474,000 is to be spent on the work in the Annapolis valley having to do with the fruit industry of Nova Scotia?

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James Garfield Gardiner: It is not easily available Mr. Gardiner: No. I understand the variety but we will get that and bring it back after has not yet been uncovered that will permit lunch.	that distribution.


George Clyde Nowlan: I suspect a lot of it may be in the experimental farms vote.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think probably it is but there is an amount under this item which is spent there.


George Clyde Nowlan: Will the minister check on that?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Mr. Quelch:: Can the minister say whether any work is being done to develop a suitable type of barley for export to Japan? I understand there is quite a possibility of expanding our sales of barley to that country but that they prefer a white barley.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. There are three different places where experiments are being carried on, one at Lethbridge, one at Lacombe and one at Winnipeg. No particular variety has yet been announced as being particularly suitable for that but work is being done on it.


Mr. Argue:: Just on that point may I say that I am hopeful that the department will expedite the breeding to which the minister has referred. Since there has been a tremendous falling off in the Japanese market for Canadian barley, because we have been informed that the Japanese prefer a barley with the white hull rather than the barley that we have in quantity with a brown or green hull, I am wondering whether the minister can say whether there is any hope for the early release of a variety that will give us some hope of getting back into what in very recent years has been an extremely important market for Canadian barley?


James Garfield Gardiner: The effort, of course, is
being made to get that matter dealt with as soon as possible. I understand it is the weathering effect upon the barley which creates the colour which they do not wish to have. An effort is being made to overcome that difficulty. I cannot say how soon they will be successful in doing it, but they are working diligently on the problem.


Hazen Robert Argue: As I understand it, it is the
end product, after the cooking process, with which we are concerned. The Japanese like barley that, after it is cooked, turns out as near the colour of rice as possible. Can the minister say whether a variety, even in the small quantities with which the breeders have to deal, has yet been discovered, or is only the breeding process itself still going on, or are they to the point of multiplying a variety that has some promise?


Harry Oliver White: Along that
same line, may I ask this question? Would it not be possible to import some foundation stock that would be suitable so that too much time would not be lost?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have imported varieties from Australia and from wherever we feel there is any variety that might be developed suitably. However, up to now we have not been able to recommend any particular one.


Mr. Johnson (Kindersley):: I understand
that most of the research work in weed control is closely allied with the botany division in discovering the life cycles or growing cycles of weeds. I am wondering whether in the department any recent developments have taken place which would indicate that controls for such extremely bad weeds as toad flax are appearing and what activities the department is undertaking in order to control this weed. Further, I should like to know whether the work, with the co-operation which the department has had from entomology, in developing a selected parasite to control toad flax is proceeding at as rapid a pace as is hoped?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that it is proceeding as rapidly as can be expected under the circumstances. Every effort is being made to improve upon what is already being done.


Victor Quelch: While we are on the question of weeds, may I say that one of the worst ones with which we are plagued on heavy land is wild oats. I know that many farmers "sowed wild oats" in their younger days; but since then they have been having a great deal of trouble in eradicating them from their land. I was wondering whether the minister could tell us about any procedure for eradicating them. I understand that there is a form of spray that can be used on wild oats, but it seems to be very hard to spray wild oats without killing the other types of grains.


James Garfield Gardiner: There is being developed a chemical spray which it is hoped will deal with wild oats. But so far as we know up to the present time there is only one way to deal with wild oats and that is by good farming. The chief way of successfully treating wild oats out in the west that I know of is in the sowing of rye. Rye sown by August 10 on summer fallow will get rid of wild oats in just one round. I know that. Hon. members may shake heads all they like. I farm out there. Most of the people who farm

out west sow their fall rye on stubble. But if one wants to get rid of wild oats, one can get rid of four crops in one year by summer fallowing to August 10; by sowing your fall rye on August 10 thus getting two crops of wild oats and that way you get two more crops before you take the rye off. Four crops in fall and spring will clean them out. If anyone has not tried it, he had better do so. It is more successful than any spray yet found.


Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson: As the minister knows, the viability of a wild oat seed will persist up to fifty years.


James Garfield Gardiner: It will if you do not sprout it. But if you farm so as to sprout it, four crops will clean your land.


James Alexander Smith: Just to get off this wild oats question for a moment may I ask a question about another matter. From studying the minister's report I notice that at page 53 they mention the increased use of newer herbicides for weed control, and they mention the use of these herbicides to control quack grass, buckwheat, wild oats and so on. However, I have not yet been able to find any information at all as to whether investigations are being carried on to control the spread of toadflax in western Alberta. If that information is available, I should certainly like to get my hands on it. I know that in my part of the province of Alberta the toadflax menace is rapidly growing. There is acre after acre of land that is now of absolutely no use at all.


Mr. Cardiff:: I should like to agree with the Minister of Agriculture with regard to wild oats. Any person who knows anything about farming knows that you do not have to put up with wild oats for very long if you farm properly. If farmers are careless or negligent, they will grow wild oats.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Chairman, I believe considerable work has been done in developing rust-resistant varieties of Durum wheat that would be suitable for the market. As the minister knows, better varieties of Durum wheat are at present relatively susceptible to rust, and the whole Manitoba area and the area of eastern Saskatchewan which normally grow a great deal of Durum wheat, to a large extent have been obliged to abandon that crop because of the rust menace. The growing of Durum wheat has moved to western Saskatchewan and Alberta to a considerable extent. I wonder whether the minister can describe to us some of the work in that regard and tell us when some of these new varieties may be released in quantity.


James Garfield Gardiner: There are two varieties of rust-resistant Durum wheat which have been
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imported from North Dakota, and we are multiplying those now for distribution. Just as soon as they are multiplied sufficiently they will be distributed in the west. The work is at the seed-growing stage now. Some of the seed is out among the seed growers who are multiplying it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
8.	Chemistry, $754,679.
Victor Quelch: I wonder whether the minister can say what research has been done in regard to the chemical control of wheat that is infested with red mites. The farmers have continued to be warned to check their wheat in order to see whether their wheat is infested or not. Then the recommendation is made that if it is infested the wheat should be turned from one bin to another. When the bins are all full of wheat, it is not always easy to change wheat over from one bin to another. I have seen advertisements recommending certain kinds of chemicals that can be used to treat wheat whilst it is still in the bin. In addition, warnings have been issued that if these chemicals are used, the wheat may be affected in such a way that it will not be suitable for human consumption. I was wondering whether the minister can say whether or not there is any safe treatment for wheat that has become infested.


James Garfield Gardiner: We have no information here on that, but I know what my hon. friend is speaking about. He refers to the mites that get in bins. We have been accustomed to saying that they get into the spots where the pipe has been running grain into the bin, the dust gathers there and mites form and destroy the grain in the bin. We will have that information looked up.


Victor Quelch: I know of one farmer who used gas to destroy the mites and afterwards the wheat was condemned as not being suitable, so apparently one has to be careful about the treatment one uses.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
9.	Entomology, Including a grant of $40,000 to the international congress of entomology to assist in defraying the cost of the tenth international congress of entomology to be held in Canada in 1956, $2,210,475.
Harry Oliver White: Has the minister or his department had any word from southwestern Ontario as to the possibility of an infestation of army worms this season? The reason I ask that question is that there were two different representations while I was home last week end that there were quite a number of them showing up in some fields. When the minister is replying, has he any

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information on materials being readily available in case the infestation should become worse?


James Garfield Gardiner: The army worm which was so widespread and caused serious loss in 1954 occurred in only a few very local areas in 1955. Practically no losses occurred in those areas and the army worm disappeared early in the season. Now, that is the only record which we have of them. I did not hear that there was any serious infestation in Ontario. Of course, that is looked after primarily by the provincial agricultural authorities, but as the army worms do not pay any attention to boundary lines we do try to keep records and assist in every way possible, but most of that kind of work is done by the provincial people.


Harry Oliver White: What is the latest information you have on the best method of control?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am sorry, but the official who is in charge of that is not here at the moment. I shall get him and have this information available later.


Mr. Weir:: I notice that in this item there is a reference to the tenth international congress on entomology to be held in Canada in 1956. I wonder if the minister could inform the house where that is going to be held and when?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is to be held in Montreal in August. The delegates will visit the Ottawa farm here and make an excursion into other parts of Canada.


Mr. Knight:: My hon. friend has just asked the question I was going to ask, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Bryson:: In connection with this infestation of army worms, I wonder what has been the result of the experiment in the northern United States whereby they drop horseflies out of aircraft. As a matter of fact, I saw this done last year in Wisconsin, and I am just wondering if there is any information available or if consideration of this proposition has been given?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not know whether I was listening carefully enough, but I thought my hon. friend said it was horseflies they were dropping. I understand it is an insect which resembles the horsefly but it is not the horsefly. The treatment is the same as that used in connection with the cutworm. A little insect is distributed in considerable numbers and it goes around stinging the cutworm. It lays an egg in the cutworm which develops

into another little worm which eats the cutworm. The plan is the same in connection with the army worm, but it is a different insect that is utilized.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: It is quite an amusing thing, but as a matter of fact everyone called them horseflies and the minister's explanation seems to cover it. There is one other thing I should like to ask the minister. Certain mites or other similar animals have been causing a great deal of concern in northern Saskatchewan in connection with some types of clothing. A United States flying service came into that part of the country and brought in lady bugs. They had a specially equipped plane and exhausted these lady bugs out of the plane. This had a good effect, and I am wondering if there has been any experimentation along that line?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not know the history of lady bugs or that kind of thing. For many years we have been not only conducting experiments but doing work in assisting in the distribution of parasites. This matter has been discussed I think in almost every session during the 20 years I have been here. We have had considerable success in breeding these insects and seeing that they are distributed.
The reason I mentioned the cutworm in particular is that I have watched the results of the experiments conducted on the prairies. It has often been said that the cutworm is difficult to destroy as long as the field remains dry. The cutworm works underground and when it rains it has to come up on top in order to get air. If you go over a summer fallow field or a wheat field that is infested with cutworms, you will find that after a rain the soil is broken and the worm has come up on top. It is then that the parasite gets busy and goes around stinging these cutworms, killing them by thousands. The breeding of these parasites is carried on by the department and we distribute them. They fly about killing cutworms, army worms and different parasites that infest our crops.


Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson: On that same point, I wish the minister would use his influence to ensure, the continuation of an experiment which was carried on in connection with the control of toadflax. The entomology department discovered a species of beetle, which was bred for the purpose of destroying the toadflax they had in Ontario. They took this same beetle to western Canada and found it was selective enough in its diet that it only ate the toadflax. Unfortunately, the experiment stopped there, and I think it is very important that they continue the experiment in the control

of toadflax. I think it is a very important trend in the control of toadflax and I wish the authorities would ensure the continuation of the experiment because it might have very beneficial consequences.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand the work is still going on. There is a little difficulty in getting sufficient numbers of the insect in order to have them multiply as fast as we require.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Has the minister any knowledge of the fly, bug, or whatever it is, called the heel fly, that is infesting cattle? We have a great deal of trouble in our county. They just drive a bunch of cattle almost crazy.


James Garfield Gardiner: We have been carrying on activities in connection with that at Lethbridge particularly. It is what is known as the warble fly, I think, that stings cattle. Sprays have been used in connection with them. We are now carrying on activities on the Guelph farm in Ontario.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: I should like to touch on the question brought up by the hon. member for Middlesex East in connection with army worms. The time may arrive when the infestation will be a calamity to farmers. Have any plans been laid down by the department, in conjunction with the provincial governments, to combat this pest? What makes me ask the question is that a couple of years ago in some instances in Bruce the infestation of army worms was getting very alarming. I had occasion to wire the ministers of agriculture of Ontario and of Canada. The reply I received from the federal Minister of Agriculture was that it was strictly a provincial responsibility. I understand that at times spraying and dusting has been done to good advantage in connection with army worms. I should like to have some information. If this infestation should reach such a stage-and I hope it never will-that it becomes alarming, have any plans been made in connection with getting machines to do the dusting and spraying, or has anything been done along that line?


James Garfield Gardiner: As the hon. member said, Mr. Chairman, the present position is, and has been over the years, that that kind of Work is carried on by the provincial departments. They have been flighting grasshoppers in the west and it is the provincial departments that put on that program. In the other provinces, when any difficulty of that kind arises, it is the provincial governments that carry on. The authorities in the provincial departments come to Ottawa for advice on
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the technical sides of it, and on any knowledge that we have on the methods that are used in other countries or in other places. We gather all the information that we can on these kinds of things through these bureaux that are established here and there and that we support. We give them all the information we can. Then, too, on the matter of the movement, that is, the movement of grasshoppers, which is a little different from the other insects, but nevertheless they do move across the country. When a movement of that kind starts down in the United States and moves toward Canada we keep the provincial authorities informed as much as we can on what we know of it; but the actual putting on of a program in order to combat it within a province is carried on by the provincial governments.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: Does the federal government take any interest in the matter or pay anything toward the work that is done in connection with dusting and spraying, or is that done strictly by the provincial governments or by the companies?


James Garfield Gardiner: We do cover some of the costs in connection with research. As a matter of fact, we carry on the work but in the actual battling of it the work is done and financed by the provinces.


Mr. Patterson:: While we are discussing worms and bugs I should like to refer to the situation that existed in British Columbia last year with reference to the corn ear worm. I brought to the attention of the minister and the department the fact that corn infected with corn ear worm was being imported from the United States, and growers in British Columbia were afraid that it would become an established problem as far as their crops were concerned. If I remember the correspondence aright, I was advised that corn ear worm had already established itself in the crops in British Columbia and I was wondering just to what extent that is so? What information has the department on that particular matter?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, the only information we have is that it has been investigated in British Columbia and been established that the worm has been there for some time. It is not just being imported now in corn that is being brought in. Apparently, it has been up and down the coast.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Is it established to any great extent or is it on a comparatively small scale?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, I understand it is comparatively small because, as you know, British Columbia is not a large producer of corn.

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They grow garden corn and other kinds of corn. It is more prevalent in the states to the south than it is in British Columbia.


Alexander Bell Patterson: Will the minister and the department keep a check on it this year?
I am speaking now with reference to the importation of such corn. Will the department see that nothing further in that line is imported into the country?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, we shall certainly keep a check on it. I am not too certain as to whether we have all the authority that is necessary in order to prevent somebody in British Columbia from buying it across the line in the state of Washington and bringing it in. We might have difficulties, but nevertheless we do keep a check on it and try to prevent the spread of it.


Mr. McCullough (Moose Mountain):: Mr. Chairman, last spring there was a serious outbreak of scrapies in some of the sheep flocks in western Canada. At that time it was reported that the federal veterinarians were taking brain samples and blood samples of those sheep in order to get a better idea of the cause of this disease. Has the minister any report to make to the committee in connection with any findings that have resulted from the investigations made?


James Garfield Gardiner: I can give only general statements with regard to it at the moment. I wonder whether my hon. friend would leave it until we reach item No. 20?


Edward George McCullough: I had
thought of doing that, Mr. Chairman, but it has to do with the science service.


James Garfield Gardiner: No; it has to do with health of animals.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10.	Forest biology, $2,167,733.
George Clyde Nowlan: I imagine this is one of the newer items within the lifetime and experience of the minister because it is growing every year. There was a time, I presume, when forest biology as such was a very minor matter so far as the federal Department of Agriculture was concerned. Today, and quite properly so, it is becoming more and more important as time goes on. I presume this work is now done in co-operation largely with the provinces, but certain scientific work is done in the minister's own laboratories. For instance, the province of New Brunswick conducted an extensive spraying operation in connection with budworm, I think it was. Is there some basis of co-operation between the two governments under which that is done? Incidentally, there have been reports, as the ministers knows, of bitter criticism
	1 w ill'!'
from either pseudo or genuine fishermen who say that as a result of the spraying operations a great deal of damage has been done to the fish; that the spray is so efficient it not only kills the infestation on the trees but it also kills everything living in the waters, the brooks and the streams which run through the woods. I wonder if the minister has any comment to make on that and if he can indicate if there is any way in which this can be dealt with.
I also have a local problem to present to the minister which I presume would come under this item. A blight of some kind seems to be attacking birch trees in Nova Scotia and many of them appear burned as though from a forest fire. This is a recent occurrence in this area and I wonder if the department is co-operating with the province in that particular matter and, if so, what is being done about it? Would the minister give a general breakdown and what the distribution has been among the provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: As the hon. member has stated, this is something which has been going on for some considerable length of time, that is co-operation between the forestry branch of the department and the forestry branches of the provincial governments. The interest of the Department of Agriculture is associated with the fact that in this country we do not include forestry with our agriculture, as is the case in most countries where the growing of trees and the planting of trees on land is considered to be agriculture just as is the growing of wheat on land. It may be that, because our country was practically covered with forest to begin with and that natural resources are under the provinces, it was decided that they should carry on most of the work having to do with forestry.
The fact that we make a study of insects and all that kind of thing and the fact that we have the facilities to do a considerable part of the work which forestry branches might require to have done has indicated the need for co-operation between the forestry branches of the provinces and the branch of our department. Our branch produces different parasites in connection with the fighting of plant diseases and also studies diseases that attack trees such as the one just referred to. There is very close co-operation between the provinces and this branch of the department.
I have here an outline of the work which has been done in connection with the die-back of birch and the bronze birch borer. Heavy mortality of birch occurred in the maritime provinces and eastern Quebec in the period 1935-1947. Intensive studies showed that no

single biological agent is primarily responsible for the disease; however, the bronze birch borer is almost invariably found in deteriorating trees and may be a contributory factor in their ultimate death. More recent studies of birch rootlets and mycorrhiza have indicated that these structures are sensitive to minor changes in soil temperature and moisture. Weather records indicate the prevalence of higher than normal temperature and reduced average precipitation during the period when trees were dying. Permanent sample plots have been established in western Quebec and Ontario to determine whether similar injury may occur in these areas.
Since 1947, definite recovery of surviving trees has been evident in the maritime provinces and eastern Quebec.
Detailed root-washing experiments have been undertaken in New Brunswick and Ontario. In trees showing recovery most of the rootlets were alive with an abundance of mycorrhiza. In the years when die-back was severe, affected trees had a higher percentage of their rootlets dead with a complete absence of associated mycorrhiza. It is possible, therefore, that the dying of tops of trees was preceded by an abnormal condition within the root system which may have arisen as the result of some unfavourable environmental factor.
Root-washing experiments will be continued to determine the rootlet and mycor-rhizal conditions in birch trees. Controlled experiments on the temperature relationships of birch rootlets and the associated mycorrhiza will be continued. Ecological studies of birch in Quebec and Ontario will be continued. Studies of virus diseases of birch will be continued in the maritime provinces.
I might say in relation to that that over the radio this morning I heard someone explaining why some of the cedar hedges out at the farm are damaged.


John Alpheus Charlton: I think everyone appreciates the seriousness of the situation with regard to the spruce budworm. Last year I asked the minister if anything was being done about the pine shoot moth which had appeared in southwestern Ontario. I see by the item that there has been an increase of 47 in the staff of the forest biological division and an increase of some $200,000 in the vote. I think we will all agree that this is very important work.
What has been the result of the experimental work in connection with the spruce budworm apart from the killing of fish, or at least most of them, and also what have been the results in connection with the pine shoot moth? I understand that the only things
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that will kill this are certain sprays and that cold weather will destroy them as effectively as anything else.


James Garfield Gardiner: The position with regard to the spruce budworm is this. In 1955, spruce budworm infestations again caused heavy defoliation in northern New Brunswick and in the Gaspe peninsula. Some tree mortality occurred in 1954 and 1955, in unsprayed areas and in others sprayed too late to be effective. In Ontario, heavy infestations persisted on Sibley peninsula and Black Bay peninsula, as well as between Lake Seul, Minnesota, and the Manitoba border, with extensions into eastern Manitoba. There was little change from 1954 in the infestation at Namew lake on the Manitoba-Saskatchewan border. Moderate to heavy infestations occurred in white spruce stands along the Mackenzie river for about 400 miles north of Fort Simpson in the Northwest Territories. In British Columbia, the infestations in the Harrison-lake-Lillooet river section of the lower Fraser drainage showed some enlargement, but a reduction in intensity.
The investigations carried out in New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia during recent years have yielded much information on the life history, habits, ecology, natural control, and epidemiology of the spruce budworm. A considerable proportion of the information has been published in scientific, professional and trade journals.
Studies of the effects of aerial sprays of DDT on budworm populations were continued in New Brunswick and in the Gaspe peninsula. The forest biology division worked closely with the provincial authorities and the forest industry in defining areas in which chemical control operations were required, assisted in some of the technical aspects of the spraying operations, and carried out biological studies and population counts in sprayed areas as well as in check areas reserved from spraying operations. Reports on the results of the spraying operations have been distributed.
(c) Work contemplated for 1956-57. The program of basic studies of the budworm problem will be continued in New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, and Alberta. Infestations not yet subjected to control operations will be kept under close surveillance. Biological studies of the effects of spraying operations in New Brunswick and Quebec will be continued.


John Alpheus Charlton: Has the minister anything about the pine shoot moth?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I understand we have nothing on it here.

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John Alpheus Charlton: Has there been any work done on it? I understand that a considerable amount of work has been done on this in southwestern Ontario.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think that work is largely being done by the Ontario government, but we can get information on it.


John Alpheus Charlton: Probably the minister's department is doing a considerable amount of work on it too.


James Garfield Gardiner: We may be, but the work that is done on all these is really being done by the provincial government.


John Alpheus Charlton: The minister gave quite a good report on it last year. That is why I say he must have something about it. He can get the information on it later if he wishes.


James Garfield Gardiner: If we can get the information here, we shall; if not, we can get it from the people who have it.


Harry Oliver White: Can the
minister report any progress in arresting the spread of the Dutch elm disease?


George Clyde Nowlan: While the minister is checking that, I may say that I notice in the details under forest biology that we have provision for five cooks and one cookee. I was wondering how the one cookee was distributed among the five cooks. Who is the lucky cook who is going to get the cookee, and who are the ones that are going to be without?


James Garfield Gardiner: Of course, the explanation of that is that probably in most of the camps where they have cooks the cook does all the work, but there is probably one camp that is so big that they need a cookee.


Harry Oliver White: The Minister has not yet answered my question about the Dutch elm disease.


James Garfield Gardiner: We have just sent for the expert on that. I understand that that is being handled, as I said a moment ago, by the province and by the cities in general where they are dealing with the problem. Of course, we carry on research work and give any information we can with regard to those matters, but I understand it is primarily carried on by the provinces and by the cities. Item agreed too.
It- Plant protection, $839,688.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: I should like to ask the minister whether this has to do with weed control.


James Garfield Gardiner: It does not have to do with weed control. It has to do with the inspection of plants, insects and diseases that effect nursery stock coming in, as to what may be carried by that stock.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: It has nothing to do with spraying and so on?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not the spraying; it is checking the plants that come in. When you come to the boundary line coming from the United States, if you have plants, sometimes you have difficulty in getting across and they insist on your destroying them before you come in. That is part of the protection against bringing in disease. We also inspect what is going out.


John Alpheus Charlton: I wonder whether the minister could give us some information regarding the importation of balled burlapped evergreens from Holland and the danger of nematode infestation, of which all nurserymen are so much afraid? I understand there is some reciprocal agreement with the government of Holland that they will not ship out anything that is infected. I wonder what this government has to do with that arrangement. Has there been any difficulty with the government of Holland regarding the importation of these balled burlapped evergreens?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is true. We send inspectors to Holland at times to make inspections before the plants leave there to come here. We have reciprocal arrangements with a number of countries, Holland being one of them. For example, we get many bulbs from Holland. We have arrangements with countries from which we receive considerable numbers of plants so that we can make inspections there before the plants are sent here.


John Alpheus Charlton: It is a little different in the case of bulbs. I understand that this nematode is carried only when there is soil along with the plant; it is carried in the soil. I wonder whether there has been any trouble or whether any importations have been stopped because of nematodes found in the soil.


James Garfield Gardiner: There have been cases where plants have been prevented from coming here on that account, but I have not the information here in regard to that. Of course, if it were not for the danger of infestation, we would not have started that at the time. The fact that we have the inspection results in some plants being prevented from coming.


Harry Oliver White: Along that line, I might mention an experience I had. At the time of the coronation two English

oaks were brought into my home village from England. They were from an area where there was infestation of the nematode, and the requirement was that all soil was to be washed from the roots, and then they were shipped out in a bag by air mail. The interesting part was that all the soil had to be removed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Experimental farms service-
12. Experimental farms service administration, $211,122.
Lewis Elston Cardiff: I should like to ask the
minister whether a spray has been discovered that will kill chicory, or blue devil as it is commonly called in my part of the country.


James Garfield Gardiner: There is one under development at Lacombe, Alberta, that is giving hopeful signs, but it has not yet been proven and therefore it is not being recommended or distributed.


Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson: I should like to raise a point under item 12 which ties in with the science service. In many cases the science service and the experimental farms service follow parallel lines. The one aspect of that with which I am familiar is the very contentious one of weed control. We have, in the science service, personnel working on one aspect of weed control and in the experimental farms service individuals at the experimental farms who are carrying out limited projects within their own jurisdiction. I think this same principle is duplicated in many of the projects which are carried out. In addition, we find that both of the services, the science service and the experimental farms service, compete for technical personnel to carry on their projects. I wonder whether the minister has ever given serious consideration to a long run trend of amalgamating these two services and perhaps part of the economics division so that you would have an integrated service whereby you would carry out your technical surveys under the science service, investigate them through the experimental farms service and carry out the research work through the economics division. I think such a trend deserves very serious consideration and I would appreciate having the minister's comment on the suggestion.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that what my hon. friend has in mind is presumed to be already taken care of. There is an eastern committee and a western committee already set up. There are representatives representing the federal services and others representing the provincial services. They review all the representations that are made to them and determine whether a certain thing is to be
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given to the science service or is to be handled by the experimental farms. In other words, they designate where it can be best dealt with and it is there it is dealt with. This distribution to the services is made before the actual problem is dealt with either by the one or the other. I presume at times there will be co-operation between the two in dealing with a problem.


Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson: I think we should go one step further and have one technical officer in charge of the three departments with a representative from the science service and from the experimental farms service. I believe we would have closer co-operation once projects are started. I agree, as the minister pointed out, that before a project is launched there is co-operation between the departments but once a project is launched difficulty arises, and I think that by closer mechanical co-ordination of the services we would have a more efficient organization. I wish the minister would give that serious consideration.


James Garfield Gardiner: We will give it serious consideration. I will ask the officials to have a look at it and take what is in Hansard.


Hayden Stanton: In view of the fact that the central experimental farm cannot expand any farther on account of the building projects surrounding it, has the minister given any consideration to expanding the farm by way of an annex say 50 or 75 miles from the central farm?


James Garfield Gardiner: This question, of course, as to what is going to become of the experimental farm in Ottawa comes up nearly every year. The department is of the opinion that it ought to remain just where it is. We do not think it is going to help agriculture or help anyone who comes here to get an idea of what is going on in Canada to have the experimental farm 20 miles away from Ottawa or even 10 miles away. We think one of the chief assets of our experimental farm system as well as one of the chief assets of the city of Ottawa and of Canada in general is the central experimental farm right where it is.
This question came up recently when the city wanted to take a piece of it to make a highway, and we insisted on its being just as small a piece as they could get along with and still have the highway. We intend to continue that policy. We are not making any preparations to take anything away from the present experimental farm and we hope the farm will always remain just where it is. It may be possible that at some time in the future we will have to have another location for some particular things that we

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cannot do right here in the centre of the city but we are not considering that at the moment.


Hayden Stanton: I did not have reference to discarding the farm in Ottawa. I was speaking about an annex. We know that as time goes on and the years go by we must expand in every department. There is no room for expansion of the farm in Ottawa and I had in mind what the department would do if it wanted to expand it. When I asked the question I also had in mind certain fruits, vegetables and so on with respect to which a much better job of experimenting could probably be done in a slightly warmer climate. I have in mind the region along the St. Lawrence river and naturally Leeds county and the fact that a slightly warmer climate would be helpful in the case of experiments with some small fruits and types of flowers. We know the climate is warmer along the St. Lawrence river than at Ottawa, and perhaps a better job of experimenting could be done if an annex were established there.


Mr. Bryce:: Can the minister give a report to the committee on the latest information he has respecting the new breed of hog known as the Lacombe? I think you must have raised seven generations now and you should be able to tell us whether the outlook is as hopeful this year as it was last year when you reported on the experiment being made.


James Garfield Gardiner: We had that same breed of hog at Ottawa when I came here 20 years ago and we had some very lively discussions in the house on it. I think most of the people who were interested in carrying the project still further were on this side of the house at that time, and we had to explain what had happened up to that time. Last year I took the trouble to go and look at the hogs at Lacombe myself and when I was there I asked the direct question: Is there any difference at all between this experiment and the one carried on at Ottawa 20 years ago? The answer was no. I had a look at the hogs and all I wish to say at this time is that it will probably be wise to distribute them some time, but I think there has got to be a lot of preparatory educational work done among the people whom we persuaded to put the long white hog all the way across this country. Breeders are established everywhere across the country. They have that type of hog, and in the face of that I do not think it should be the work of the department to go out and say that there is another one that is better until we have proven it to their satisfaction. I have grave doubts whether it is better. Hog breeders

outside the service altogether to whom I have been talking do not think it is better yet, and until they do I would not be in favour of making any great distribution of the hogs.


William Scottie Bryce: That is why I asked the question. I have great faith in the Yorkshire hog myself. However, I have an open mind on the matter, and if you can show me that by doing this experimental work you can produce a better hog than the Yorkshire hog and get a bacon hog that this country wants I would be all for it. I have another question while I am on my feet. Most hog feeders know that fishmeal is a valuable food. I think it is in Nova Scotia that they are producing fishmeal silage now. It is a wonderful thing when you are feeding hogs but the trouble is you have got to inform the hog feeder that he can only feed fishmeal up to a certain point. If you feed it right along you are going to destroy the business of the packing companies because you will have to put in the frying pan bacon that will taste fishy. You have got to be very careful about that. I think it should be a part of the work of the department to carry on an educational program. They should see that in every bag of such meal that goes out there should be information to the effect that if you feed it too long you will destroy the thing that everybody is trying to achieve, an ideal bacon hog producing bacon with a first class flavour.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Lewis Elston Cardiff: Just when the committee rose for lunch I was going to ask the minister whether they were still experimenting with the scrub hogs they had out at the experimental farm a couple of years ago.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not seen the scrub hogs. They are experimenting with some very good ones.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: It all depends on what you call "good". Anything that I saw was not good. Perhaps they had some good ones but I did not happen to see them. The ones I saw were anything but good. They were a cross or something with Chester Whites. I do not know what they were trying to do with them.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think that might be something along the lines of the experiment we were talking about at Lacombe with Chester Whites, Berks and Yorks and by certain methods of crossing trying to develop a new strain.


John Alpheus Charlton: I understood that this La-combe breed was all in the west. I understood that there was not any of that breed down here at all. Is that not true?


James Garfield Gardiner: There are a few at the Ottawa farm with lopped ears hanging down over their eyes.


John Alpheus Charlton: They might just be the first cross. Are there any of the Lacombe breed here in Ottawa at the experimental farm?


James Garfield Gardiner: The breed which was here 20 years ago is the same breed as is at Lacombe now. At least the experts tell me out there it is. I have been over at the Ottawa farm within the last two weeks and have seen some similar ones there, as my hon. friend from Huron has no doubt seen. I do not know just how they got there but they are there.


John Alpheus Charlton: If the ones out west are supposed to be the Lacombe breed, and as to which I understand they are trying to get registered now-there is an application before the government to have them registered -I sincerely suggest that if they are as bad as the ones out at the farm here, they had probably better disregard registration.


James Garfield Gardiner: It has gone further than that. There has been an application for registration and I am not sure that arrangements have not been made to have them registered. They have asked me if they are to be distributed and I have not agreed. That is what I have been telling the committee.


John Alpheus Charlton: We shall let that matter
drop for the moment. I want to add a word to what the hon. member for Leeds said about the experimental farm. I brought this matter up a couple of years ago, I think, when there was some discussion at that time, as there has been every year about moving the farm out of the city of Ottawa. I understand that there is now some discussion with regard to moving the barns and the housing for the animals out further from the city. That would split up the animal research division or the livestock division and the crops division. That is to say, the crop experimental work would be maintained here on the present farm but the animal experimentation work would be moved out of the city. I can see a certain amount of justification for such a move if the city by-law prohibited the keeping of animals within the city limits. In that case you might be obliged to move them out. I wonder whether there is any truth in the suggestion that such a move is to take place?


James Garfield Gardiner: As I said before lunch, we have not agreed to any proposal to move any of the experimental farm out of Ottawa. So
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far as the department is concerned and so far as the government is concerned, the farm is to remain just as it is and where it is. I cannot say what will be the situation 25 years from now. My hon. friend might be in office by that time, I do not know.


John Alpheus Charlton: I do not wish to be misunderstood. I am not suggesting that it be moved out of Ottawa. I am just wondering whether there has been any discussion taking place between the department and the city or whoever the discussion was with, with regard to the matter. I can see the one thing that might conflict and that is if the city by-law says-and I imagine that it does-provided that no animals be kept within its boundaries, referring to cows, horses or pigs. I suppose such animals as cats and dogs would not be affected. But in view of that possibility, there might have been some discussions at least. Have there been any discussions with the city of Ottawa?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a discussion about moving part or all of the experimental farm out every time they want to build a new public building in Ottawa. Somebody comes down here and says, "We would like to build it on the experimental farm". When they wanted a place to practise tennis they wanted it out there. We get those suggestions all the time. Discussion comes up every time somebody has a notion of that kind. The government has always taken the position that there is going to be no moving of the experimental farm.


William Scottie Bryce: I should like to ask the minister whether the Lacombe hogs are being bred only in the one place. When I drive home from Ottawa is there some place to which I can go and see them or must I go to Lacombe to see them?


James Garfield Gardiner: The only place I am sure I have seen them is at Lacombe. You can see hogs in different stages of the cross breeding which is taking place to produce what is known as the Lacombe hog. All I know is this; there are a few lop-eared hogs at the Ottawa farm. I did not go in and ask about them. I go out to the experimental farm here occasionally, and in driving through there within the last two or three weeks I have seen a few hogs that look very much like those I saw at Lacombe. I therefore would not deny that some of them are there. However, I would not say they are there officially.


William Scottie Bryce: How many generations have
been developed now by the gentlemen who run the minister's department?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am not certain as to how many generations they have gone through but I think you will find out that they are

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at different stages with those hogs. There are hogs there that conform more to the Berks in appearance but they are white and there are hogs that conform more to the Chester White. In other words, I would think their work with the breeding system that is being followed has not been completed in order to produce a hog that I would want to accept as of established type.


William Gilbert Weir: On this item I should like to
interject a remark or two. I myself made a special trip to the Lacombe farm last summer. While I did not have anyone show me around, I saw a number of pigs which I presume are this new strain of Lacombe hogs that are being produced by the experimental farm system. I have no remarks to make about that matter except to say that they looked like a rugged type of hog. Perhaps the one advantage of their having ears hanging down over their eyes was that they could not so conveniently squeeze through garden fences. I think the point that we would be mostly interested in with regard to this particular experiment is whether or not the experiment has been successful in fixing the type of a good, rugged, economically produced hog. I think that is the essential thing that we are all striving for. It will take time to determine whether or not that is an animal superior to the standard breeds of hogs that we have had in this country for a long time.
I should like just to go on and say another word or two in connection with this vote which I note is up $27,000 from last year. In any little opportunity I have to wander around the country, I am always glad of the chance of dropping in on an experimental farm. It has always been a pleasant experience and there is something there which one can pick up every time he goes there. I think our experimental farms throughout the country are a credit to those who have been responsible for their organization and administration. More than that, I think that agriculture as an industry deserves that type of governmental scientific assistance. I commend most warmly the foresight of those who developed this system and who have been in each instance attempting to carry on experimental work which they thought would be of value to the particular community in which those farms were located. Perhaps I might be forgiven if I digressed for a moment, but I think what I am going to refer to is sufficiently close to this problem to ensure that I will not be ruled out of order for so doing. A few weeks ago I had the pleasure and privilege of attending the fiftieth anniversary of the first agricultural

college established in the three western provinces, namely the institution in the province of Manitoba.
May I digress to say that it was a very creditable jubilee celebration which brought together 1,200 or 1,500 students who had attended the old agricultural college over the past 50 years. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that the man who was given the privilege of lifting the first sod towards the construction of a new science building, to which the graduates of that institution are making quite a reasonable contribution, was also the man first to register at that institution in 1906. Later, I had the privilege of listening to the dean of our agricultural college, who happens to be a namesake of mine, make a splendid address. In passing I should like to refer to that, having in mind particularly what agriculture is facing up to in this very competitive industrial world today. I am one of those who firmly believe that, more and more, agriculture has to look to our scientifically trained men to give the leadership, not only in production, but also in marketing and all these other fields that pertain to an industry of the importance of agriculture in this country.
Whatever government can do through experimental farms, through their various science divisions and their universities, to train agriculturists in a manner to enable them to give that leadership, I think it will be money well spent in the interests of this country in the days to come. For that reason I am glad to see that this vote is being continued and somewhat increased. In our own province of Manitoba we have two institutions that are very well regarded. I am referring to the experimental farm at Brandon and the one at Morden. They are carrying on in somewhat different fields, but none the less they are looked to by the people in those communities as well as the people outside of those communities for guidance and for information on any particular problem that may be affecting any farmer who is interested in improving his position.
We have in addition to that, as everyone knows, in all communities men who are giving a great deal of attention to the advancement of agriculture in the matter of producing of select stock seed, improving varieties and expanding these things as well as developing new crops and testing them out. Every community has such people who are a very valuable addition to our background in trying to establish agriculture scientifically on a sounder basis. I am thinking for the moment, if I may, of another area, partly in my own constituency, where the conditions are quite different from those that

might be associated with the farms at Brandon or at Morden. In this area there is a different type of soil and, to some extent, different climatic conditions. These people seem to feel that they should have some direction in the way of developing speciality crops, whether that be corn, grasses and clover or things of that nature, I do not know. Nevertheless, the feeling is there and they think-I am speaking now of the local board of trade, the farmers union organization and other groups of that kind-that something by way of an illustration or demonstration plot should be established where people could go by and see what could be done. It might be a useful instrument in giving a lead perhaps to a more stable type of agriculture in that community. I think the minister will recognize the area to which I am referring and he will recall having met with a group of people from the McCreary area a year or so ago. I am just putting that before him and I would be interested in knowing what progress might have been made, if any, towards reviewing the possibility of some development of that nature.
I would only add one other word. When I referred to agricultural graduates, and I was not confining that to Manitoba alone, when I met with my associates of former years at this celebration, I want to say to the minister that quite a number of them were associated with the experimental farm system in various parts of this country.


James Garfield Gardiner: May I tell my hon. friend that surveys are now being made in connection with the McCreary proposal.


Mr. Wylie:: I have only a few remarks to make on this item. I am very glad to see this increase which, as the hon. member who has just spoken said, is about $27,400. I only hope that the $27,400 is to be used to establish an experimental farm in the Medicine Hat area. As the minister knows, we now have irrigation right down to Medicine Hat. At the present time we have an experimental range station at Manyberries, which is 75 miles south of Medicine Hat. We have an experimental station at Lethbridge-


John Horne Blackmore: It is a farm.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Perhaps you are right, but it is 100 miles from Medicine Hat. However, we do feel that, now that we have irrigation right at our doorstep, serious consideration should be given to the establishment of an experimental farm in the Medicine Hat area.
I am sure the minister has had some representations, not only from me but from others, with regard to the establishment of that station. I do hope that in the very near future consideration will be given to an
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experimental farm in the Medicine Hat area. I might also say this. We are in a very dry area which now has irrigation. These farmers really do not know how to handle the water that we have today. The peculiar thing is that then the water was turned into the ditches about the middle of last month, it started to rain and it has been raining ever since. We hope it keeps up. However, I think that what we should have in the Medicine Hat area is an experimental farm to which the farmers can go to see how the different crops are raised. There are many crops that can be raised in that area, as the minister knows. I think it is time consideration was given to that idea.
I want to ask the minister one question. Have any representations been made to him by the city, by the chamber of commerce or by anyone but me, from the Medicine Hat area, about the establishment of an experimental farm in that area.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not recall, Mr. Chairman, that there is any correspondence on the matter but I was in Medicine Hat not very long ago, as my hon. friend knows, and representations were made at that time by all those organizations. I explained to them, of course, that the Manyberries farm south of Medicine Hat is still operating, which has to do with the dry area rather than the irrigated area, and that we are also carrying on at Vauxhall what we look upon as more or less of a model in connection with irrigation. We have there a very considerable illustration station which is operated for exactly the purpose the hon. member has in mind. The whole project, however, is one that was laid out entirely by our engineers and those who have had great experience in irrigation work and the public does visit that place quite regularly because of the nature of it. I think it does perform much of the irrigation work which might be carried out if we had an experimental farm as such set up. I have some doubt as to whether there is necessity for going farther than that at the present time. Nevertheless, I am pleased to have the representations that were made, and we shall look into the whole matter.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Mr. Chairman, may I take up a few more minutes of the time of the committee? I am sure everyone in the Medicine Hat area appreciates what the dominion government has done with the range experimental farm at Manyberries. Hobart Peters, who is in charge at the present time, has done a very good job, but it is more in the nature of the production of livestock. They have various cattle

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down there that they experiment with. They investigate the number of cattle that each quarter section or section will carry in that area. They have done a wonderful job and they are still doing a wonderful job. They had a range station day out there last week or the week before, and 1,200 people attended. It is a wonderful thing to go down into an area where there are no trees except around a few farm homes, and there are very few there now. At the dominion range station they have shown what can be done by the storage of water. I was going to speak on this on the P.F.R.A. item- perhaps I should when it is mentioned. I think we see the results of a good range experimental farm. We do not go out to Vauxhall because it is 60, 70 or 80 miles away from Medicine Hat. The people just do not go out there, that is all. What we would like to have in Medicine Hat is something the same as they have in Lethbridge, namely, a dominion experimental farm to which the citizens of Medicine Hat could go after a drive of about 10 minutes. That is our idea. We would like that not only for the people living in Medicine Hat but also for the farmers in that area.


Gage Workman Montgomery: I have a question I would like to ask the minister on this item.
I am wondering whether he would like to bring us up to date on the disease-resisting project in Fredericton having to do with experiments into the disease of potatoes?
I think they call it a potato breeding project. How are they coming along with their experiments in Keswick, Kathadin, Canso and Netted Gems? Could we have that information?


James Garfield Gardiner: While the officials are looking into this question I might answer a question which was asked by the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis-Kings before lunch. He asked about the cost of operating the Department of Agriculture units at Kent-ville, Nova Scotia. For 1955-56, experimental farm, $188,000; botany and plant pathology, $46,820; entomology, $90,480.
Then, there was a further question asked with regard to the pine shoot moth. An active research program is being maintained on this pest in Ontario. Chemical control is being tested and parasites are being imported this year from Europe in an effort to check the outbreak. Work is going forward at Belleville, Maple and Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario.
A question was asked with regard to grain mites. These were thoroughly investigated during the second world war and it was found that infestations arose mainly from storing grain when the moisture content was
	'	!
excessive or from leaking granaries that permitted damp spots to develop. Chemical control is effective.
In recent years emphasis has been on the rusty grain beetle which has been the principal pest in stored grain. Research is continuing to improve the effect of insecticides when used in large bins. This work is centred at Winnipeg.


Mr. Pommer:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to support the statements made by the hon. member for Portage-Neepawa regarding the splendid work done at the dominion experimental farm at Morden, Manitoba. This farm is in my constituency, and I know from first-hand knowledge the high calibre of people employed there and the splendid contribution they have made to agriculture and also to horticulture. They are to be commended for the splendid work they have done in horticultural research in that part of western Canada.
While I am on this point I wonder whether the minister can tell me the name of the man who has been appointed as the new superintendent for that farm?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, a selection has been indicated but it is before the appeal board at present, and a final decision has not been made as to who is to follow Mr. Leslie.
On the national potato breeding project at Fredericton, two varieties were released. Canso and Keswick were resistant to late blight, but new races of blight have attacked them. Breeding is continuing to try to deal with the new condition which has arisen. It is much the same in principle at the rust. There is a new one.


Gage Workman Montgomery: May I have some information on the Netted Gems?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. They have been grown mainly in the west up to now. They are a very high starch content potato and are being introduced into New Brunswick largely with the idea of providing a potato that is suitable for potato chips.


Mr. Fairey:: While we are on this item may I say that the station at Summerland, British Columbia, is a very fine one of which we are very proud. At the station there is a dairy herd. I should like to call the minister's attention to the fact that Summerland is only about 7| miles north of Penticton, which is the centre of the fruit-growing industry. The dairying activities are centred about 40 miles north between Kelowna and Vernon or even north of that again. I suggest therefore that this herd is not well placed. I understand that representations have been made to the department to have the herd moved

from the station at Summerland to a more northerly position in the Vernon district. Has any examination of that situation occurred?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is under consideration at the present time but it has not yet been determined what will take place.


Mr. Decore:: I should like to commend the department and the minister for having set up an experimental station in the Vegreville constituency to deal with a particular soil problem. There are millions of acres of what is known as burnt-out or solonetz soil. This has always been a problem and nobody seems to have found the answer as to the best way to deal with this type of soil. A farmer may spend a lot of time, work and money trying to build up this soil and find his returns are not very good.
That was the purpose of setting up this experimental station and it has met with a lot of enthusiasm throughout Alberta and I think throughout Canada among soil specialists. I realize that they have a great job ahead of them in their efforts to find an answer to the best way to deal with this type of soil. I am sure that once an answer is found it will prove to be of great value to the people of Alberta as well as to the people of Canada.
Some work has been done this year and they are going to hold a field day on August 7. I have invited the minister to attend and I should like to see the deputy minister and other officials of the department as well as the parliamentary assistant there on that day. It would do the parliamentary assistant a lot of good to visit western Canada.
So far there has been no superintendent appointed at this farm. I understand that efforts are being made to find a top soil expert to work there. Also the program should be expanded. I shall not go into the details but I simply wanted to make these few comments.


William Albert Pommer: Could the minister give some information as to the progress being made in establishing an illustration station in the Crystal City-Clearwater area in Manitoba. I had some communication with the minister in regard to this matter and I am wondering how it is progressing.


James Garfield Gardiner: No further progress has been made since we were discussing it before. We have not yet selected any place there for a demonstration station.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: Apparently everyone wants an experimental station in his area. A peculiar type of soil is found in the area around The Pas and across the border in the Carrot river area of Saskatchewan and I understand that
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at one time the government was considering establishing an experimental farm in The Pas area. Is the establishment of such a farm under consideration at the present time?


James Garfield Gardiner: There are considerable developments taking place in the Carrot river area both on the Manitoba and Saskatchewan sides of the boundary. Beyond the work which is being carried on there, no undertaking has been given up to the present time to put in a special illustration station. There is always a possibility that with the conditions which will develop when the drainage and diking system which is being put in goes ahead there may be a necessity for it.


Edward George McCullough: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could give us any information in connection with any experimentation that has been undertaken with respect to the feeding of wheat to hogs? I understand that there is a method being used by which the wheat content of the feeding formula can be increased greatly. I think every farmer knows that ordinarily you cannot feed much more than one-third wheat.


James Garfield Gardiner: The general experience is that you cannot use more than one-third wheat in the grain mix when the hog has reached a certain stage in development. As my hon. friend knows, wheat has been fed to hogs in western Canada for a long time and it has been an important part of the mix. But care must be taken in feeding it, particularly if the hogs are confined to pens and not able to get out and run around a little. They are more likely to stiffen up if they are fed more wheat when they cannot run around outside.
Experiments are being carried on at all experimental farms and stations, and I am sure that nearly every farmer, particularly those in the west, is carrying on experiments as well.


Edward George McCullough: I do
not know whether my information is authentic, but I have been told that some western hog feeders are feeding practically 100 per cent wheat successfully in the finishing of hogs. I was just wondering if that was the result of experiments by one of the branches of the department or by a private firm which has perhaps developed a supplement in order that a greater amount of wheat may be fed.


James Garfield Gardiner: I cannot say that advice has been given that wheat alone could be fed under all circumstances and conditions. Frozen and rusted wheat and wheat of poor quality is being fed quite generally. I remember once driving into the yard of a man in the middle of Saskatchewan who had some of the

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finest pigs I have seen running around the yard. I asked him how he got his pigs in that shape and he said, "Come, I will show you." He had them eating whole wheat out of a trough filled to the top with water, the wheat being in the bottom. I went back to the agricultural department in Regina, that being the closest point, knowing they had a lot of good information, and I told them what I had seen. They asked me whether the hogs were running around the yard, and I told them they were. They told me that if those pigs had been closed up in a pen and fed like that they would probably have stiffened up and been unable to move. I find in our own experience in feeding hogs that you can feed more wheat to them if they are running outside than you can to hogs that are penned up. No doubt farmers in general find that out.


John Alpheus Charlton: In view of the remarks the minister made regarding the Lacombe breed of hogs, I wonder whether he would tell us who has made the application to have these hogs registered.


James Garfield Gardiner: The people breeding them on farms. They want to get them up to standard and they think they have a considerable number of them up to a standard where the breed is stabilized so that if you carry on on that basis you will get the hogs bred back to similar types. Some of them advocating that have in mind crossing them with some other breed of hog such as a York. Some of them do not say that the breed is so well established that you can be absolutely certain that they will breed back in type, but they say that if you cross them in a certain way with another breed of hog you will get a more rugged type and a hog that will produce more what you desire. They are trying to get a big ham with small shoulders and keep a considerable length to the hog at the same time. In other words, they are trying to get a hog more like the Danish and Swedish hogs without having them exactly the same, one that is more suitable to this country.


John Alpheus Charlton: I take it that some of the breeders who are working on this are not agreed as to whether or not they should be registered. As I understand it, the minister is not sure he is agreed either. From what he has said, it is not likely at this time that he is going to accept them for registration.


James Garfield Gardiner: The national livestock records people have the suggestion before them now, but even if they were recognized as a breed the department would have to come to a conclusion as to whether we would promote their distribution right across the country

in competition with the white Yorks, we have already spread right across the country.


John Alpheus Charlton: I take it that the minister thinks further experimentation should be done before this is done.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Mr. Nicholson:: The minister and I have had some differences of opinion on a number of occasions regarding the position of the farms. I wonder whether the minister would consider establishing an experimental farm in each province that would not be supported by public funds but merely so that someone under the minister's supervision could demonstrate in each province how easy it is to make a good living in producing the commodities which are produced in a particular area.


James Garfield Gardiner: If my hon. friend had been listening last night, he would have found out that there are quite a number of them right across the country now. Last night questions were asked as to how returned men had got along paying for their farms. If I remember correctly, there were only 69 out of 2,637 who had not been able to take care of all their indebtedness in connection with their farms up to the present time since the war.


An hon. Member:: Since the first world
war?


James Garfield Gardiner: Some of them since the second war and some of them since the first. But I should just like to point out that there are some people who make a success of farming under the conditions we have had and I do not think there are very many who would not agree that if they could not make a success of farming under these conditions they probably would not under any.


Mr. McLeod:: I do not like to let this item pass without paying a tribute to the Minister of Agriculture and the officials of the experimental farms service. I happen to represent the area that has now become the leading dairying district of British Columbia, that is, the area from Vernon to Salmon Arm. Since coming down here, it has been my privilege to work in the interests of these dairy men in trying to have an experimental substation established in that area under the jurisdiction of Summerland. I must say that from Dr. Goulden, Dr. Woodward and Mr. Barrett I have had wonderful co-operation. I understand that at the present time Mr. Barrett is in that area looking over the situation and I trust that he will come back with a favourable report and that we shall have established in that area the kind of service to which we

feel we are entitled and which his department seems to think is worthy of consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Central experimental farm, including research and co-ordinating divisions for the experimental farms service-
13.	Operation and maintenance, including a grant of $5,000 to the international congress of genetics to assist in defraying the costs of the tenth international congress of genetics to be held in Canada in 1958, $2,428,466.
Lewis Elston Cardiff: I should like the minister to explain to us just what the International Congress of Genetics is.


James Garfield Gardiner: They are the animal and
plant breeders, as the term indicates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Central experimental farm, including research and co-ordinating divisions for the experimental farms service-*
14.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $306,000.
George Clyde Nowlan: I have a question to ask with respect to the branch experimental farms. I noted that some of those questions were asked on item 12, but I waited until this particular item came up. I certainly wish to join with other hon. members who have referred to experimental farms in their own constituencies.
This afternoon the minister gave us a breakdown of the expenditure on the experimental farm at Kentville, which is largely dealing with the production of fruit. I can assure the minister-and he certainly needs no assurance-that the staff there is doing excellent work and the moneys being expended on the operation of that farm are doing a tremendous amount of good for the fruit industry and for agriculture generally in the province.
My question has to deal with one particular item. I think I raised it three years ago, at which time the minister said he would look into it. Apparently, when the farm first started many years ago, part of the land was bought by the provincial government. After some time the provincial government decided to vacate the field of experimental farms, and some working arrangement was entered into between the province of Nova Scotia and the federal government whereby the federal government would take over the farm. That continued until two years ago, and then, when the matter of municipal grants adjustments came into effect, the town of Kentville checked up to see how many federal buildings it had within its boundaries, and it found it had X dollars' worth. The matter was taken up with the Department of Finance, and as a result the town council received a grant under the municipal grants fund. Then a new administrator took over and apparently he was meticulous in check-
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ing the records. He went to Kentville and checked the deeds, and he found that the dominion government had built the new science laboratory on land that belonged to the provincial government, and not to the federal government, and that the federal government had no title to it.
At that time the late premier was having his own ideas about what moneys were owing to the provincial government by the federal government and he said that not only would he not deed the land to the federal government but that he would sell it unless they made an adjustment on what he thought was owed to the provincial government. So we had the situation then that the title to a substantial part of this farm, including the part on which the modern buildings had been built, vested in the provincial government rather than the federal.
The minister at that time said he would take the matter under consideration and see what could be done. Frankly I do not think much could have been done at that time because of the feud, shall we say, engaged in by the two governments over the amount which Nova Scotia claimed was owing to it by the federal government. I wonder whether the minister has had that matter straightened out as yet. I am told that it has been brought to the attention of the department year after year but it was taken as one of those friendly family arrangements over which no trouble would ensue, and finally it did. I think it is something which should be dealt with now. Where the federal government has constructed buildings it certainly should have title to the land on which the buildings are built; otherwise there may be another feud some day.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is true that the property at one time belonged to the province and there was an arrangement made whereby the federal government took over the experimental farm. There was some difficulty about the title up until about two years ago, I think, but title to all the land is now in the federal government. There was one building which was built on land that belonged to the province. The title to that land has also been turned over to the federal government, so we have all the titles now as far as we know.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Branch experimental farms, substations and illustration stations-
16. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,122,000.
William Albert Pommer: Could the minister give us a breakdown as between provinces with respect to item No. 16, a vote of $2,122,000? Could we also have the amounts for Manitoba and where they are to be spent in Manitoba?

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James Garfield Gardiner: There is a considerable list. There are some small items and different amounts for construction and equipment. I wonder whether the committee would agree to this list being published rather than my having to read it all.


William Alfred Robinson: Is that agreeable?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


James Garfield Gardiner: The table is as follows:
Branch Farms and Stations
Place	Construction	EquipmentSt. John's West 	. $ 12,750	$ 3,460Illustration stations ...	-	41,947Charlottetown 	. 51,000	16,480Summerside 	_	1,250Kentville 	. 34,200	11.100Nappan 	. 23,800	16,720Fredericton 	. 53,000	23,160McDonald's Corner .	. 500	1,850Ste. Anne de la	Pocatiere 	. 43,500	19,425Lennoxville 	. 62,030	15,764L'Assomption 	. 30,400	9,620Normandin 	_	8,690Ste. Clothilde 	. 13,530	2,400Caplan 	. 1,700	2,990Harrow 	. 14,700	15,180Delhi 	8,690Woodslee 	. 2,350	5,500Kapuskasing 	. 94,180	16,086Smithfield 	. 7,500	5,550Winnipeg 	. 7,940	51,482Morden 	, 3,000	12,810Brandon 	. 19,200	7,833Melita 	_	4,325Portage la Prairie 	7,675	Saskatoon 	42,650	4,385Indian Head 	32,719	18,455Regina 	19,750	9,439Indian Head F.N.S	65,000	10,827Melfort 	11,950	17,740Scott 	38,000	15,490Sutherland 	8,200	4,186Swift Current 	27,410	52,195Swift Current Soils Lab.	_	2,350Lethbridge 	43,700	39,828Lacombe 	29,050	21,356Manyberries 	37,770	24,078Beaverlodge 	126,700	17,344Fort Vermilion 	56,000	8,250Vauxhall 	3,200	13,112Stavely 	1,500	7,565Summerland 	154,500	14,745Kelowna 	1,175Agassiz 	59,400	21,982Saanichton 	24,650	9^311Prince George 	24,390	8,915Smithers 	30,650	6,506Whitehorse 	1,000	6,200Substations 	20,500	42,735Kamloops 	23,850	12,175Fort Simpson 	1,400	1,450Fire fighting 	25,000Unallotted 	-	36*000Sub total 	$1,359,219	$762,781Total 	$2,122,000	Item agreed to.	Production service-	17. Production service	administration,	$78,515.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr.	Chairman, I	want to
speak for a few moments on a question that		

I am quite sure will appeal to the minister as a member of a Christian church and a practising Christian, except temporarily possibly at election time, and perhaps we are all sinners in that respect. Anyway, I hope the item I wish to mention will appeal to his Christian conscience and give him a further opportunity to practice those principles in which he believes.
The subject I wish to mention is the question of the humane slaughter of animals, a question which is receiving wider interest across the country every year. The reason most Canadians have not been interested in the matter is that they do not know the facts. They do not know about the cruelty that exists in our packing houses across the country and almost to the same extent in the United States.
The reason they are beginning to know is the good work done by various organizations and associations which have given some consideration to the question, studied methods of killing, written pamphlets and taken their time to acquaint their fellow citizens with the situation that exists in so-called Christian Canada. The matter has received a particular amount of attention in British Columbia, and on that account a committee of the society for the prevention of cruelty to animals went before the agriculture committee of the provincial legislature and made a very good case indeed. Their representations had a great effect on all members of the committee, regardless of party. They were so impressed and affected that when the representations had been completed the committee adopted the following paragraph in its report to the legislature, as found in a news letter of the humane slaughter association:
On February 29, 1956, following representations by the S.P.C.A. and our own association-
That is the humane slaughter association.
-the select standing committee on agriculture of the provincial legislature reported as follows:
"Your committee heard representations from the humane slaughter society, the society for the prevention of cruelty to animals and the Canadian association of packers with regard to the merits of humane slaughtering of food animals and the difficulties arising from such methods. After due consideration, your committee recommends as follows:
The committee expresses sympathy with the ideas expressed by the humane slaughter society and strongly recommends that the federal and provincial departments of agriculture make a thorough study of all aspects dealing with this question with the object of putting into effect the most humane methods possible in the killing of food animals."
This is a question that has received a great deal of attention in the United States and by a number of very prominent congressmen who are concerned about our present inhumane methods. Just to indicate the interest

I am going to quote from two or three news articles in this connection. The first is an editorial in the Detroit Free Press of June 5, 1956, in which I find the following:
A measure of civilization's height is the degree to which it puts aside barbarism and cruelty in all their aspects. If means for slaughtering livestock are available which will stop any present suffering by the slaughtered animals, it seems to us that the civilized thing to do is require their employment.
Then we have the New York Daily Mirror of June 22, 1956. In an editorial it had this to say:
Packers from Finland to Fiji have installed humane killing devices that make our slaughter houses look and sound like medieval dungeons.
.	.	. Something deeper than a squeamish repugnance toward blood motivates those who would see swift reform. It is the abiding conviction that callous brutality has no place in our society.
Then I refer to another editorial in the Christian Science Monitor of March 16, 1956, containing these words:
Bills are pending before the committees of both the Senate and the House of Representatives to require humane slaughtering in the United States.
In the issue of May 31, 1956, I find the following:
Most Americans would be surprised to learn that the United States is a backward country, in one respect at least. It is 25 to 50 years behind many European countries in the development of humane methods of commercial animal slaughter.
The same applies to Canada at this time.
I am not going to detain the committee longer. I have simply mentioned the matter and brought the facts to the minister's attention. I should like him to tell the committee what representations he has received and what his department intends to do to bring us at least up to the standard of the Fiji islanders in this respect.


James Garfield Gardiner: There have been representations made to the department. The officials have been gathering information from countries like Sweden, Denmark, Britain, the United States and elsewhere as to what is being done in those countries, and they are accumulating as much information as possible before making any decision with regard to the matter.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The matter is under serious consideration?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, and has been for the last six months.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is the minister going to comment on the matter I brought to his attention on the first item, regarding the administration of the production service and having the veterinary services under the production service? I see that well over $6 million, and it is well over, out of a total 67509-378
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of $11,207,835 has to do with veterinary services, either research or disease work. I wonder whether the minister would give us some idea of his feelings in this regard, and tell us what is the policy of the government at this time.


James Garfield Gardiner: The amalgamation of these two branches is to be made on the first of April next. It is now being worked out and will be brought to completion around that time. I refer to the health of animals and pathological divisions.


John Alpheus Charlton: As a separate branch?


James Garfield Gardiner: They will still be under production services.


John Alpheus Charlton: I take it that animal disease research work and disease work are to come under one head but still under production service. I sincerely suggest that is not what the veterinary association has requested. I can see very little advantage in doing that. As I say, I do not want anybody to misinterpret my words as being directed personally to anybody in the department. However, it is the feeling of veterinarians across this country that they probably could be of better service to the nation if there were one separate branch of animal disease services or veterinary services or whatever you want to call it. They think it would be better if the two branches or divisions were in one separate branch, whereby the head of that branch would go directly to the deputy minister rather than having to go through a layman to get to the deputy minister.
That is the feeling among the veterinarians across the nation. I sincerely suggest that the minister give further consideration to the proposal, and that rather than just bring them in under the production services he make a separate branch of the department having to do with animal diseases or animal research and diseases.


James Garfield Gardiner: When I came to the department over 20 years ago that is as it was except that both these divisions were separate 20 years ago, as I recall it; it may have been less than that or it may have been a little more. These different branches reported directly to the minister or to the deputy minister. I reorganized the department to put it as it is now, in five divisions the head of each reports directly to the deputy or to myself. The two branches that are referred to are under production services; that is, they will be under production services under the new set-up.
We think it is the better way to have it and we do not think we should start to get back to where we were previously. There

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are many other divisions in this department which think they too should have the privilege of dealing direct. Whenever anything important comes up and they require to bring it to either the deputy or the minister, of course they are free to bring it. But when we get together groups to discuss what we are going to do by way of policy and so on, we deal directly with about half a dozen people instead of dealing with every branch in the department. It does not work in with the general organization of the department to have that particular section reporting directly through the veterinary director general. It does not suit the set-up of the department in general to have that made special.
I may say that I get requests from people outside of the department every once in a while that a certain person with whom they come in contact from time to time be put into the position of dealing directly with the minister or the deputy minister. On those occasions I have taken the position that the way in which the department is organized- and we think it is a better system of organization than was there previously-


John Alpheus Charlton: The position here is not quite the same as it is elsewhere. I would suggest that this is a little different, because you are dealing with one aspect of the livestock industry in this nation, namely the health of animals. I do not think the minister could mention another part of his department that is comparable, where you have two separate divisions. Now he says they are to be brought into one but still under another head, and it will be between the director of the two divisions and the deputy minister.
This is one of the most important branches of the whole department, I would suggest, because when the health of animals is to be considered it is a matter of great importance, as we all know after what we went throguh in 1952. The production service is an extremely important branch. As I said, I realize that quite a bit over half of that work now has directly to do with the health of the animal population of this country. Hence it is quite an arguing point to have a separate branch when there are other branches that spend very little more-no, not any more; there is one other branch that spends less, as a matter of fact, than the animal pathology branch and health of animals, compensation for animals-than does this branch. So I hope the minister will give further consideration to this suggestion. I am sure he will hear further from the Canadian veterinary association with regard to this matter.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: I am not sure
whether or not this is the right item under which to deal with this matter, but it is
[Mr. Gardlner.J
pertinent to the discussion. I should like to inquire of the minister whether he can tell us whether the test for reactors all over Canada is panning out satisfactorily and whether the percentages are coming down gradually. Can he give us a comparison with regard to T.B. reactors?


James Garfield Gardiner: I wonder whether the hon. member would mind leaving that matter until we come down to item 21, "Compensation".


Andrew Ernest Robinson: That will be fine.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Animal pathology-
IS.	Operation and maintenance, $715,074.
John Alpheus Charlton: There has been considerable controversy particularly over two diseases. One is rabies, with regard to which I want to commend the department for looking after us very well. The other is scrapie disease in sheep. A great many stories are going around. How much truth there is in them I should not like to say. In view of the fact that very little is known about the disease of scrapie in sheep, I think probably it is one of the most important things the health of animals branch has to deal with at the present time; also in view of the fact that there are still in the country many suspected sheep that have come from flocks that have since been destroyed. A great many of these sheep are scattered around various districts in Canada. They are not even all under surveillance. We assume, however, that most of them would be under surveillance.
In view of the fact that so little is known about the disease I would sincerely suggest that the department should be taking into serious consideration the setting up of some research, or else taking the results of the research of other countries such as England, for instance, where you would think they would know more about this disease inasmuch as they have had to deal with it much longer than have we, and co-operating closely with the department in England along that line.
The disease could be very costly to the sheep industry. I am not sure about this, but I understand that one entire flock was destroyed last year. If they pay as much for all sheep as was paid for that particular flock, I say that it could be very costly, because I understand the amount was up almost in the $100,000 bracket for some 600 head of sheep. I do not know where I would ever be able to find a flock of sheep, counting the lambs and all, that would average anywhere near that price. I wonder whether the minister could give us some assurance that all the stories we hear are not true,

and whether he could tell us what the department is doing in this regard. As I say, it is a very serious matter and is looked upon as being a very serious matter by the sheep breeders across the country. As a matter of fact they do not know where they are going. They do not know how many sheep they can export or when they can export and when they cannot.


Edward George McCullough: The
minister will recall that before the lunch hour, I brought this matter up and he suggested that I should wait until we reached item 21 before we discussed it. If it is quite in order to discuss it on this item I should like to continue with what I said this morning, namely that it seems that this sheep ailment called scrapie is a very serious disease.
In view of the fact that five or more flocks have been affected by this disease in the past few years, I think it is important to have as much information given to the sheep breeders throughout the country and to this committee as possible. My question this morning of the minister was whether or not any detailed findings had been made after the slaughter of the 500 purebred sheep of P. J. Rock and Son of Drumheller, Alberta, and whether or not the blood samples, which I understand were taken at the time, have revealed anything in respect to the cause of this disease or any method by which it could be controlled.
I have further questions to ask in respect of the compensation paid for these animals, but I wonder if the minister would be prepared now to comment on the questions I have put to him.


Harry Oliver White: Before the minister answers, there was a question or two to ask along that same line. Have any sheep been slaughtered and transported to Hull for examination or experimental purposes during this past year, which were suspected of having this disease? Has any compensation been paid to any Ontario farmer for sheep so destroyed?
While I am on my feet, I neglected to say earlier that sometimes we are in a hurry and forget to pay tribute to those who are responsible for some of the things we now enjoy. I want to point out that back in 1886 Sir John Carling, who was then the member for London, was the man who inaugurated the experimental farm in Ottawa, and Mr. Saunders from London was the first director. Sir John Carling was the first minister of agriculture in the cabinet of Sir John A. Macdonald.
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James Alexander Smith: Before the minister replies to this question dealing with scrapie, may I point out that we in Alberta are very much concerned about the appearance of this disease amongst the sheep flocks of the province. I have in my hand an item taken from the Manitoba Co-operator which deals with the scrapie outbreak to some extent, and I should like to read a brief section of this article which is referring to Dr. Swales, who I believe was at one time associated with the Department of Agriculture as an animal pathologist:
The incident Dr. Swales referred to was a purebred flock in the Ottawa valley of Ontario. About 1947 Scrapie was found in it and was traced to an imported ram. The flock was destroyed and compensation paid.
If that report is true, then this outbreak of scrapie that occurred in Alberta this year is not the first instance of scrapie in Canada. I mentioned that we in Alberta are concerned about this disease. We are particularly concerned about a number of rumours associated with the disposition of the flock of sheep which belonged to Mr. P. J. Rock. Before this question is closed I should like the minister to inform us as to the number of sheep which were slaughtered and for which the federal government paid compensation, and the amount of compensation paid.
I should like also to have the minister give the committee some assurance that the registrations of the purebred animals, which at this time were slaughtered, have been called in, because there is just the possibility that with a large herd like this being slaughtered some substitutions could be made. I certainly do not believe the minister would want this to happen. I want him to give us assurance that every care was taken to see that the animals paid for were the ones on the registration forms turned in.


James Garfield Gardiner: As I think is generally
known, Mr. Chairman, scrapie is a disease among sheep which has been known in Great Britain over a very long period, probably 200 years. We have not had a great deal of experience with it here, although we have available to us all the information which is available in Great Britain and elsewhere if they have had it.
In so far as the situation here is concerned, I think it is correct to say that there have been three outbreaks. There were three farmers concerned in the first one and there have been two others. In 1945-46 the number of animals slaughtered was 102. The farmer was Mr. Baldwin, and the amount paid was $2,131.33. Then in the outbreak in 1951-52, which was traceable to the same outbreak, there were 65 sheep belonging to Mr. Tisdale and $2,244 was paid. In 1952-53

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there were some 11 sheep destroyed belonging to Mr. Charter and $525 was paid. Then in 1954-55 Mr. McQuay had 108 slaughtered and the compensation paid was $8,100. Mr. Rock in 1955-56 had 674 sheep slaughtered and they were all registered. There is not any question about them being slaughtered or of their being substitutions. The compensation paid was $100,050. The sheep that had been sold from the flock were all traced and it was proven that there was no scrapie carried along with them into any of the other flocks. I think, therefore, the matter has been pretty well cleared up for the present.
On the questions which were raised by the hon. member for Moose Mountain I think the answers are as follows. Sheep specimens collected in Alberta for the study of scrapie are part of the project to study causative agents of the disease, pathological changes, and the search for sero-aglutination blood tests which would indicate the presence of the disease prior to the establishment of clinical symptoms. The progress of this type of project is invariably slow, for the first thing that must be done is a thorough micropathological examination of the brain and spinal cords. This work is now being done. A search is also under way for a causative agent in the spleen, liver and kidneys, but no results are yet available from this work. Blood samples collected have been separated and the blood serum has been frozen for future use in the establishment of diagnostic tests.


James Alexander Smith: I should like to ask the minister if he can explain the vast difference in prices paid by way of compensation for the sheep that have been slaughtered. For example, I find a rough calculation shows that for the 11 sheep slaughtered in 1952-53 the compensation was approximately $50 a head, while the compensation paid to Mr. Rock was over $100 per head. Why the tremendous spread? Sheep have not changed that much in price, and I take it they were all purebred.


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, the Rock flock is looked upon, or was looked upon, as one of the best flocks, if not the best flock, in the world in that breed. They were very highly pedigreed. The sheep were being sold not for the ordinary purposes of putting mutton on the market, or lambs on the market, but for breeding purposes at prices higher than the government agreed to pay. As a matter of fact there was considerable negotiating and inspection work done to determine whether this was a reasonable amount, and it was decided that it was.


Edward George McCullough: On my
own responsibility I want to say that I feel there should be a ceiling on the amount of compensation paid to an individual. We should have reasonable compensation. It should meet as nearly as possible the justice of the situation. If a man has high quality stock that must be destroyed, then he should receive reasonable compensation. I wish to join with the hon. member who has just spoken and say that there does seem to be great discrimination in the amounts of payments made for various sheep that have to be slaughtered.
I also want to make a point which I think is borne out by the amount of compensation paid for purebred cattle in the various areas of Saskatchewan at the time of the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. I have heard it said that Mr. Rock is a well-known Liberal in the Drumheller area. Whether or not that has any implications I cannot say, but on my responsibility as a member I say I believe the compensation of $100,000 for 600 sheep perhaps is too large an amount. I think we need to have at least a limit on the amount of compensation paid to one individual. If we have such big operators they should stand a larger amount of the loss. I believe that our smaller operators or smaller farmers are the people who should be looked after and given a chance. If Mr. Rock had that sort of holding he should be in a position to take care of some of his losses.


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. Chairman, on the question which is apparently uppermost in my hon. friend's mind, I had not understood that Mr. Rock had always been a Liberal. If he has been a Liberal in recent years it must have been because he, like some other people, was converted to Liberalism. He does not live in Saskatchewan, so it has not concerned me particularly.
Mr. Rock has been one of the outstanding breeders in the province of Alberta, not only of sheep but of cattle. His flock of sheep has been very well known not only in this country and in the United States but also on the continent of Europe. There has been a lot of trading back and forth.
I am not going to argue the question as to whether the sheep were worth that much; I do not know of my own knowledge, but I would like to correct a figure I gave when I spoke on the matter. There were 674 of these sheep. If a person wishes to figure out the actual amount it comes to about $150 for each of them. That price for sheep that were going to be used for mutton, of course, would be a high price. There was not that type of sheep in this flock. It was a very well-bred and highly registered flock of sheep.

It is true there were some lambs. The lambs when they grew would be in the same class as the others. The very best of attention was given to the valuation, and I know that it was gone over very carefully. There was considerable time before an agreement was reached. The final agreement was reached and a settlement was made in accordance with those figures.


Mr. Johnston (Bow River):: How many lambs were in the flock?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not know offhand; I have not the information with me. As a matter of fact, I was out there myself in connection with some of the investigations, and men from here were out there. I know that everything possible was done to make that settlement for the slaughter for this very fine flock of sheep as acceptable to everyone concerned as it could possibly be made.


Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman, I think the minister should be able to give us an approximate idea of the age of the sheep. How many were six months old or under; how many were one year old? That does make a tremendous difference. If you have a flock of 600 sheep and half of them are a year old and another half six months old and you are paying around $160 straight through, I would think that would be an outrageous price.


James Garfield Gardiner: If my hon. friend will make that notice of question, the information can be made available. It is not here. I will have it brought down in the house on Monday, or just as soon as I can bring it down.


Charles Edward Johnston: I do not think we need to make it an order for return or anything like that. The minister should bring the information down. That is all that is necessary.


Victor Quelch: I should like to speak on this matter. I have lived in the same district as Mr. Rock for many years. He is recognized as one of the outstanding breeders, as the minister has pointed out. P. J. Rock and the Grenville brothers are probably the outstanding sheep breeders of western Canada. While $100,000 does seem a very high price to pay in compensation, on the other hand one has to keep in mind the fact that many of Mr. Rock's sheep have been sold at sales for well over $1,000 a head. I remember that one ram sold for $3,000. I do not doubt for one minute that if the flock had been valued in terms of the prices he had received at the purebred stock sales the figure would probably have been considerably in excess of $100,000.
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I understood that the number of sheep was in the neighbourhood of 500. I suppose that during the time the investigation was being made lambing time came around, and no doubt by the end of the consideration that was given to it the number had increased from 500 to 674, on account of the lambs. I believe that the figure that was worked out was worked out on the original basis of the 500 rather than on the 674.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand they were all valued individually.


Victor Quelch: I thought they were figured out on a flock basis rather than on an individual basis. I just wanted to point out that I have been in close contact with both the Rocks and the Grenvilles. I do recognize that they are outstanding breeders, not only of sheep but of shorthorn cattle. They are also outstanding in the grain business.
The Rock farm is not merely a sheep farm; it is a private experimental farm. It has been a show place in western Canada. People come from hundreds of miles away to visit the farm and see the type of work that is being done there with stock. Therefore possibly the price of $100,000 is not out of the way.
As was mentioned, the question of compensation is a difficult one. If in one case a man is paid a very high price and in another case another man is paid a lower price, many people will feel that perhaps there is discrimination. I do not know how much loss an individual farmer is supposed to stand and how much the government is supposed to stand.
Perhaps the minister can explain that point. Is the compensation supposed to represent the actual value of the flock, or is the individual supposed to stand a certain amount of the loss and the government a certain amount? I agree with the minister that actually that flock was probably worth more than $100,000 in terms of the price that could have been received had they been sold at purebred stock shows. I am just wondering whether or not the government does feel that it should pay the full realizable value of the flock?


James Garfield Gardiner: The valuation of the flock was made by independent valuators who were brought here from the United States to do the job. They valued the sheep at $160,000, and the amount paid was $100,000, which is $60,000 less than the sheep were valued at.


James Alexander Smith: I would like to have some assurance from the minister before we end this discussion that the

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registrations of these purebred animals have been turned in to the department. Have they been turned over?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, they were all turned in to the department.


James Alexander Smith: I have just one comment to make before I sit down. I think the Minister of Agriculture is slipping if he did not visit Moran and find out that Mr. P. J. Rock is one of his supporters. I really believe he had better retire.


John Alpheus Charlton: The minister gave the
amounts which have been paid, and they indicate that in the case of the first flock of sheep, or the first herd, as the minister refers to them, an average price of $20 was paid; in the case of the next herd the average price was $30; the next one was $40; then in 1952 the average was $80, and now we have $150.
I suggest that this is the only case where anywhere near the actual value has been paid for livestock. Thousands and thousands of animals are killed every year under the instructions of the department because they suffer from infectious diseases, and never before has anywhere near the actual value of the animals been paid. There is supposed to be a limit in the case of sheep under the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, and there is also a limit for hogs, for cattle, both purebred and grade animals.
Here we have a herd of some 600 sheep.


An hon. Member:: A flock.


John Alpheus Charlton: The minister has referred to it as a herd, so we will go along with him on that. The minister does not know how many lambs there were, how many yearlings there were and how many adults there were, but an average price of $150 was paid. I have never seen a flock or herd of animals yet where there was not one animal in the herd which would warrant an extremely high price, say $30,000 or $40,000 in the case of a bull, but the average price for the herd would not be anywhere near that figure. The price for sheep under the Animal Contagious Diseases Act is low in comparison with the price for cattle, but I would say that never in the history of this country have we paid that much for a whole herd of cattle which have been slaughtered under the instructions of the department. I do not think $160 per head has ever been paid for cattle. I should like to know if the meat was used when these sheep were slaughtered, and who got the value of the meat.


James Garfield Gardiner: They were all buried.


John Alpheus Charlton: That gets rid of that one then. In the case of cattle it is true that the man gets the value of the meat in the case of
[Mr. Smith (Battle River-Camrose) .1
those not sent to the tank, but I do not think there has ever been a case where a herd of cattle, no matter how good they were, no matter whether they were registered animals, show animals, highly-bred animals, have brought that price as an average for the herd.


James Garfield Gardiner: In the case of the foot-and-mouth disease the animals were paid for on the basis of the market value, and the price paid was more in the case of purebred herds than in the case of grade animals, but no one contended that it was less than they could have got for those animals otherwise.


John Alpheus Charlton: It is easy enough to bring someone in from the United States to put a valuation on the flock. We do not know who the men were. I do not know anything about Mr. Rock, although I understand he is very prominent and is well known in the United States, Great Britain and Canada for his success in the show ring and for the prices he has received for his animals. But I still say it is a tremendous price to pay for sheep.
If the price keeps going up the way it has over the last five years and the department makes it attractive to lose sheep infected with scrapie, they may find it more difficult to get rid of this disease. We had this experience with tuberculosis a few years ago, when people purposely had their cattle react because they could get a better price that way than any other. I suggest that the same thing is likely to happen in connection with scrapie, and it will be very hard for the department to trace these things. It has been suggested that there were some substitutions made in this flock before the date the animals were slaughtered and buried.


James Garfield Gardiner: They had all been checked.


John Alpheus Charlton: Can the minister stand up in this house and say that they were checked every time the departmental officials went out? Can he say that the ear tag numbers were taken on the first visit that was made to the flock, and that the ear tag numbers were checked with the ear tag numbers of the animals which were buried?


James Garfield Gardiner: My hon. friend will
understand that I must depend upon my officials, and they tell me that they were all checked as soon as it had been established there was scrapie in the flock, and all those which had gone out before that were traced right through to their destination as far as that was possible in order to establish that there was no disease. Certainly there were no transfers after the scrapie was established. If sheep had gone to the United States with this disease or had carried it somewhere else, you had to go there and find it. They

did go there. All these examinations were made and as nearly as it can be said by anyone, I am quite prepared to stand here and say that we take the responsibility in the department for saying that no such thing did happen.


John Alpheus Charlton: The minister is saying, then, that after the disease was diagnosed all ear tag numbers were taken, but I say to him that the disease was not diagnosed until many months and many years after it was suspected. What happened from the time it was suspected until the inspection was made? I suppose inspections were made to find out whether the disease had made any progress in the flock. Otherwise how would you know when to take out animals and send them to be slaughtered? If the flock was not inspected at intervals how would you know that there were any diseased animals? I understand the incubation period for this disease is two or three years, but very little is known about it.
The ear tag numbers may have been taken at the time of the first inspection of the flock, but what about sheep that had not yet been tagged? I admit that it would be an almost impossible job with 600 sheep. It would probably take days to check the ear tag numbers. I do not know how the inspections were made of this flock previous to the time the disease was suspected. This flock was brought to Toronto and shown at the winter fair just previous to the time the infected sheep was found, and the disease diagnosed as scrapie. So there are probably hundreds of sheep across the country now that have been in contact with sheep of this flock, and that is what makes it so alarming to the sheep breeders, especially in Ontario.
I do not know if all the sheep that were sold from this flock at the Royal winter fair last fall have been kept under surveillance and are being quarantined, whether any of them have been destroyed or what has happened to the sheep that came out of that flock. It should be known where every sheep is that was sold out of that flock in the last five years. I know how difficult it is for the officials, but I want to point out how serious it is. Perhaps the tags were removed. The minister knows as well as I do that things like that go on with registered livestock across this country, the switching of ear tags and so on. I am not suggesting it was done, but there are stories being circulated that some of these sheep that were supposed to have been destroyed and buried are still in the country. I think it is very important that we should know for sure whether it was done.


James Garfield Gardiner: The men responsible for doing the job are sitting in front of me and
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they say it was done. That is all I can tell you. Every type of sheep you mention has been traced right through and is still being checked, and no scrapie has developed as a result of any of them. The hon. member speaks of there being sometimes hundreds and sometimes many more, all of which gives the impression that probably the thing could not have been done. But I am told by the officials that it was done, and that every sheep that came down to the exhibition at Toronto and was sold and delivered has been traced right into the flocks where it is, and none of them has scrapie or any sign of it.


John Alpheus Charlton: That was not my question.


James Garfield Gardiner: As a veterinarian you can figure out all kinds of things, but there are as good veterinarians sitting here. They have gone all over it and checked it from every point of view, and they indicate to us that there is no possibility within reasonable limits of following these things up of scrapie having been carried from this flock elsewhere. The flock itself is all underground, buried.


John Alpheus Charlton: There are two questions
the minister did not answer. One was, were the ear tag numbers taken on the first inspection of the flock? The second was, is every animal from that flock isolated, or are they being used for breeding purposes now in other flocks across the country? They might know where they are, but are they isolated from other flocks?


James Garfield Gardiner: Right from the time the
disease was diagnosed the ear tag numbers were taken. I venture to say that my hon. friend does not get all the tags on all the nursery stock he has sold, as to whether there was disease in the roots and so on. It has been done just as carefully as it can be done. There is, of course, the question as to whether too much was paid. That is a legitimate question to raise. We do not think too much was paid. We only paid what we thought ought to be paid. Outside of that I do not think anything could have been done that has not been done.


John Alpheus Charlton: I have tried to keep strictly away from personalities in this discussion and I do not appreciate the minister's remarks regarding nursery stock, although perhaps it is true. His department inspects it. I do not think we have had anything go out that has not passed inspection.
The minister still has not answered my first question. Apparently the ear tag numbers were not taken. I have to assume that there were no ear tag numbers taken previous to the time the disease was actually diagnosed as scrapie. I am not saying this is

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wrong and it should be done this way, but I am saying it is dangerous. What has been told might quite reasonably be true under those circumstances. I am not saying it is true, but the people who tell these stories know. That is all I am suggesting.


James Garfield Gardiner: Bring them to the department.


John Alpheus Charlton: It the ear tag numbers were not taken prior to the diagnosis, then there was plenty of time from the time the disease was established until the disease was diagnosed for a good many things to happen.


James Garfield Gardiner: The ear tag numbers are all here, as my hon. friend knows. Those sheep were all registered, and the ear tag numbers were all known here, no matter when they were sold. The transfers are all registered. There is no great difficulty about tracing sheep that were there even ten years before the scrapie was there. But to say that every one of those sheep will have to be traced right back to the time Rock started to set up his flock, I do not think that is expected.


John Alpheus Charlton: No one is suggesting that.


James Garfield Gardiner: It might be said, "Perhaps you should know where all the sheep are that went out of that flock, say three months before the disease was in existence at all." That could probably be done and perhaps has been done. We can certainly And out where they went. Every flock that had any possibility of contamination through shipments of sheep from this flock has been checked. I know that rumours go around about things of that kind, but if one wants to follow up all the rumours there is no way of doing it. If any person mentions to any member of the house that he knows of these sheep, refer him to the department. It does not have to be a matter of publicity, but let him certainly come to the department and make known what he knows, and it will be checked right to the minute.


John Alpheus Charlton: There is still another question the minister did not answer, and I think it is very important; that is, whether or not all the sheep sold from the flock within the past two or three years, say, which we assume is the incubation period for the disease-as far as we know it is two or three years-have been isolated. Are there any of those sheep across the country today that are not isolated from other sheep, or are they being used for breeding purposes anywhere?


James Garfield Gardiner: There would be nothing gained by isolating them. They have been in

the flocks, and the flocks have been checked and they are still under observation.


John Alpheus Charlton: The entire flock?


James Garfield Gardiner: The entire flock where the animal is. That is, if Rock sold an animal into some particular flock, that flock is still under observation.


John Alpheus Charlton: I am glad to hear that the whole flock is under observation. However, as this, we assume, is a hereditary disease, would it be good judgment or common sense to keep on using one of those rams, for instance, to breed ewes now after knowing it came from the Rock flock? Even though he were used for a year or only two months, would it be good common sense to keep on using him and have him breed several more ewes, knowing he is from the Rock flock?


James Garfield Gardiner: My hon. friend is again assuming something with which I think no expert agrees. No one agrees it has been proven that the disease is hereditary.


John Alpheus Charlton: Not proven, but it is certainly the assumption by some authorities.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not known that it is hereditary. All these matters that are being referred to are naturally under consideration in the observation that is being made of the flocks. The disease has been in existence, as I said a few minutes ago, in Britain for at least 200 years. They do not know the answers to these questions now, and I do not know that they will know them after we are all through with the observations that are being made, but the observations are being made, and in so far as can be found there is no trace of it elsewhere.


John Alpheus Charlton: I suggest that it might be easier to get the answers now than it has been in the past 200 years.


James Garfield Gardiner: It may take part of the next 100 years to get them through.


Edward George McCullough: Mr. Chairman, usually the minister is able to answer any questions put to him about his department pretty explicitly. I find, though, that in the discussion of sheep most of his answers are quite woolly. I also think, as far as the compensation of $100,000 that has been paid is concerned, that the people of this country have been fleeced. I believe these terms are appropriate, and I also think that perhaps $100,000 is rather large compensation for any political support that may be forthcoming from this individual. The minister did not answer my question, and I was quite serious about it.

I understand there was an attempt made to diagnose the disease, scrapie, and that brain samples have been taken of the condemned animals. Can he tell the committee if any findings have been made which would lead to establishing the cause of the disease and a method to control it? That is my first question. My second question has to do with certain statements made by other members of the committee in which they have tried to indicate that sheep from this flock have gone throughout the country and apparently also have gone, according to certain press reports, to many parts of the world.
I have a press report here indicating that a flock of 502 Canadian sheep have been flown to the Dominican Republic to improve flock blood lines in that Caribbean country. It indicates that many of the sheep came from the flock of P. J. Rock of Calgary. Incidentally, the date of the press report is March 17, approximately the same date as the discussion that took place in the house with respect to the action taken by the government to destroy many of the sheep in Mr. Rock's flock. I would ask the minister if he has any report to make on the sheep that have been shipped to the Dominican Republic. With respect to the destruction of the condemned animals on Mr. Rock's farm, can the minister tell the committee whether the complete flock was destroyed? It would seem to me that the compensation is entirely out of line with what one might call simple justice.
I am a purebred breeder myself, and I think the minister will agree with the statement when I say that you cannot take the top sale price figure as representing a fair price for your complete herd. Often purebred breeders in the cattle business as well as those in sheep and other livestock businesses get a fairly good price at public auction, but you cannot say that would be a fair price for a complete herd of cattle or a complete flock of sheep. I think the price of approximately $670 per sheep is completely out of line-


James Garfield Gardiner: No.


Edward George McCullough: I
should say 660 sheep at a price of approximately $166. Such a price is completely out of line with prices paid on former occasions. The hon. member to my right has indicated the various prices paid from 1952 until this recent incident. I think the minister should look into the matter and take to heart some of the arguments that have been put forward by members of the committee. I feel there has been an injustice done in this case, and that there should be some correction made.
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Lewis Elston Cardiff: Mr. Chairman-


Edward George McCullough: Would the minister answer my question with respect to the findings?


James Garfield Gardiner: To begin with, and to follow up the simile used at the commencement of my hon. friend's remarks, I might say that I am not one of those animals which goes around with wool in its teeth. That might answer the suggestion made in what the hon. member had to say. There may be some who do, but I am not looking for explanations of that kind. In any case, the answer has already been given to the question. I read it. Progress on this type of project is invariably slow, for the first thing that must be done is a thorough microbiological examination of all brains and spinal cords, and this work is now being done. A search is also under way for the causative agent in the spleens, livers and kidneys, but no results are yet available from this work.
In other words we have not been able to discover, any more than they have in Britain or elsewhere up to now, just what is the cause of the disease. I think that answers the question which was in the hon. member's mind when he wanted to know if the cause had been traced. It also answers the suggestion that the disease is hereditary. No one has been table to tell us that it is hereditary, and all the checks that could possibly be made have been made in connection with these sheep.
As to the price, I quite admit that I do not know very much about the price of sheep; but my hon. friend who lives near Mr. Rock says he did sell sheep for as much as $1,000. We certainly did not take that price to reckon what should be the value of these sheep. I stated some time ago that we did not take our own valuation at all. We had them valued by the best valuators that could be found, and we even went outside the country to get them.
So far as the Dominican Republic is concerned, I am told by the officials here that the news item which has just been read has been before the department, has been examined into, that the statements made there are not facts, and that there were no sheep in the Dominican Republic at that time that came from the Rock herd. There were sheep there that were bought in Canada and came from owners of flocks who had bought sheep from Rock at some time or other. That has all been followed up and the fact still is, as I stated it before, that so far as we know every sheep that left that flock and could have carried the disease has been followed to wherever it went, hus been checked there, and there is no sign that any disease has

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been carried with them. As to the other question, the sheep that were there were slaughtered and put under ground.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Why was it necessary to bring in United States valuators to value the sheep?


James Garfield Gardiner: For the very reason that has been made quite evident this afternoon. If I had gone and done it myself I know what would have been said in the house. If anyone associated with me in any way whatsoever throughout Canada had been taken there to do the job I know what would have been said about that too, and if it had been left entirely to the officials of my own department I know what would have been said about that. These valuators were men from the United States who know the value of sheep, and they made that valuation but we did not accept. We cut the amount down to $100,000 whereas they put it at $160,000.


John George Diefenbaker: They certainly were not rock bottom prices.


John Alpheus Charlton: Has it ever been done before?


James Garfield Gardiner: It was done in connection with the foot-and-mouth disease. The price was higher than the individuals said they could sell them for on the market or anywhere else.


John Alpheus Charlton: That is not what I asked.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is pretty nearly what you are asking. I do not know what you are asking if that is not it.


John Alpheus Charlton: If the minister would sit still for a moment and find out it might be better. Have you ever brought in adjusters before from outside the country to value herds?


James Garfield Gardiner: When the foot-and-mouth disease was on in Saskatchewan we had many men from the department of agriculture of the United States-


John Alpheus Charlton: Where they adjusters?


James Garfield Gardiner: -and we had their opinions about everything.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Health of animals-
20.	Administration of Animal Contagious Diseases Act, and Meat and Canned Foods Act, $5,698,838.
John Alpheus Charlton: What information can the minister give us relative to the inoculation of cattle leaving Winnipeg yards for haemorrhagic septicemia? What has been the result? Has it been good? Have you had to pay much compensation for animals that have died as a result of that disease?


James Garfield Gardiner: For some years the department provided shipping fever anti-serum free to stockyards where feeder cattle were being assembled for shipment. A few years ago some doubt arose as to the actual efficiency of this anti-serum in preventing shipping fever, and extensive field tests were conducted by the department in the fall of 1954. These established that the anti-serum had in fact very limited beneficial effect in controlling shipping fever and the free distribution of that product was discontinued by the department last year.
The work which has been done on the matter indicates that other organisms are involved in the condition known as shipping fever, and that the most feasible control probably would be in the bacterin containing these various organisms. Various types of bacterin for this purpose were prepared last year by the department's animal pathology division and subjected to trials with experimental lots of animals at the department's own station. As a result of this one product was determined to have the most beneficial value, and it is proposed to use this on field trials during the coming fall.
The survey was commenced in October, 1954, and completed in December, 1954. During this period 2,093 animals were treated with bacterin and 4,062 treated with serum. Approximately 3,255 animals were identified as control animals, receiving neither serum nor bacterin. Bacterin was administered on the ranch, 10 days to six weeks in advance of the sales date, and serum at the shipping point, one to four days before shipment.
Immediately prior to treatment, blood samples were collected from approximately 10 per cent of the three groups. Blood tested animals were identified and a second sample collected after arrival on the purchasers' premises.
The purpose of blood tests was to measure by means of the complement fixation test any change in antibody level between the time of shipping in the west and arrival at destination in the east.
On arrival at destination in eastern Canada the animals were visited on the purchasers' premises at least twice, and where sick animals were encountered, departmental veterinarians provided treatment. Suitable specimens from animals which died were forwarded to the laboratory in Hull for study and, in particular, to determine the type or types of bacteria responsible for the disease.
Of the 9,410 animals shipped, 266 or 6-5 per cent of the 4,062 serum-treated animals were sick on arrival; 49 or 2-3 per cent of the 2,093 bacterin-treated animals were sick on arrival; and 177 or 5-4 per cent of the

3,255 untreated animals were sick on arrival. The mortality in these groups was 35 (0-86 per cent) in the serum group; 10 (0-47 per cent) in the bacterin group; and 30 (0-92 per cent) in the control group. This is shown in Table 1.
I think it would be well to have that table placed on the record. There are just a few figures as they appear here with respect to the bacterin, serum and control. The table just deals with the facts I have read. They are in the table. I think the table should be placed on Hansard.


William Alfred Robinson: Has the minister unanimous consent to place this table on Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


James Garfield Gardiner: The table is as follows: Table I
Animals Sick on
Shipped Arrival Mortality
Bacterin	
2,093	49	2-3%	10	(0-47)Serum	
4,062	266	6-5%	35	(0-86)Control	3,255	177	5-4%	30	(0-92)
Of the 75 which died, specimens were obtained from 53, and 22 of these specimens came from animals which received no treatment. Pasteurella multocida was isolated in three cases; pasteurella hemolytica in three cases; and both types in 14 cases.


Mr.   Char@: From what the minister has said, I take it that the mixed bacterin seems to be the better of the two treatments, and that the results were quite a bit better than with the non-treated animals or checked animals. Am I right in assuming that the death rate and the number of sick animals was much lower with the mixed bacterin than it was with the other treatments, the serum treatment or the check?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that the mixed bacterin has not been used. It is to be used in the field tests this fall. Therefore they have not the results of that.


John Alpheus Charlton: I thought the minister gave us the results indicating that of 4,062 animals that were treated, some thousands of the animals were treated with mixed bacterin.


James Garfield Gardiner: Perhaps I did not make myself fully understood. The mixed bacterin which is being prepared by this department to use has not yet been tested out. This was a manufactured mixed bacterin that was imported.


John Alpheus Charlton: It was a trade mixed bacterin?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: From some drug house?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.
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John Alpheus Charlton: And the department are trying to develop a better strain of mixed bacterin than the one they have used?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. That is to be tested out this fall.


John Alpheus Charlton: But that has not been tested out even in the field yet?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right.


John Alpheus Charlton: But with the purchased mixed bacterin, were the results not better than with the serum?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, they were; that is right.


John Alpheus Charlton: On how many animals was compensation actually paid? I refer to those test animals that died. I believe the number was 75.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, 75.


John Alpheus Charlton: Was compensation paid on all those animals?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: Was any compensation paid on animals which had been inoculated by the owners themselves in Winnipeg before they left?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I understand there was not.


John Alpheus Charlton: It is not compulsory to have them inoculated. I understand there is a charge now. Is there now a charge in the Winnipeg market to have them inoculated?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, that is right.


John Alpheus Charlton: It was done free for a year or two. Now a charge is made?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: But there is no compensation paid other than on those that were carried free by the department as experimental. Is that right?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Are all animals that come from the west inoculated at any certain point, or before they leave there?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. I understood the question was this. Were all the animals that were tested, animals that came from the west. If that is the question, the answer is yes.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: I was not referring to that particular group of animals. Are all animals inoculated before they leave the west, regardless of where they come from?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, it is up to the owner.

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Lewis Elston Cardiff: I bought some cattle from the west. I do not know whether they are inoculated. I understood they were inoculated before they had left there for shipment east. Are they so inoculated?


James Garfield Gardiner: My parliamentary assistant can give you a better answer than can I. He is shipping them continuously.


Mr. McCubbin:: It is entirely up to the owner of the cattle in the west and yourself. If you put an order in for a load of cattle in western Canada, the owner can inoculate them before he ships them down to you. It is entirely up to the two of you. As for myself, I ask the owner of the cattle not to inoculate them. I would sooner have them come down uninoculated than inoculated, but that is just an idea of my own.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: For what reason?


Robert McCubbin: I feel they come through better.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: I do not know anything more about it than the fact that I received a load here about a month ago. I did not have any difficulty. I do not know whether or not they were inoculated, but they went straight to the grass. I think the biggest difficulty with these cattle is that they come down in April and they are put in the stable. They are not used to being housed. Then if they pick up a cold it develops quickly.
I lost two of them, and they died within two or three days. This particular load went straight out to grass and I had no trouble at all, no sickness or anything.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is it not marked on the bill of lading?


Robert McCubbin: Yes, it is always marked on the bill of lading. Perhaps the hon. member for Huron has never looked at the bill of lading.


John Alpheus Charlton: It is $1 per head, is it not? Mr. McCubbin: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
21.	Compensation for animals slaughtered, including compensation for eggs destroyed from infected premises under terms and conditions approved by the governor in council, $290,080.
Andrew Ernest Robinson: I wonder if the minister could give us some idea of the success of our testing for T.B. reactors in cattle, and the progress of the testing throughout the different districts?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand the question is as to the percentage, after they have been tested?


Andrew Ernest Robinson: I should like to know also if it looks as though the situation is improving down through the years?


James Garfield Gardiner: Oh, yes, there is no question about that. This concerns the program of tuberculine testing and restricted area retesting. I have here the estimated number of cattle to be retested, the estimated percentage of tuberculosis and the estimated amount required for the payment of compensation for reactors slaughtered. This is for the year 1956-57, and it is based on our experience, of course. In Queens and Prince counties of Prince Edward Island there are 355,000 to be retested, and it is estimated that [DOT]25 per cent will be reactors. The cost will be $6,576. In New Brunswick the estimate is the same in percentage, -25 per cent reactors. The cost will be $1,008. In Quebec it is again [DOT]25 per cent and the cost there is $14,400. The number of animals to be rechecked is 119,900.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: Without going any further would the minister be able to tell me how that percentage compares with what it was five years ago? How long have they been under test in Queens and the other county, and is there some improvement?


James Garfield Gardiner: The number tested right across Canada for 1949-50 was 2,089,000. The number of reactors was 30,521. The compensation paid was $1,261,771.60. If you remember, in 1949-50 it was 2,098,000 and in 1954-55 it was 2,079,000 that were tested. In 1949-50 there were 30,521 reactors and in 1954-55 there were 3,900, just a little more than one-tenth.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: You have not the percentage there, I take it.


James Garfield Gardiner: You would find there were not more than one-ninth as many reactors last year as there were in 1949-50, and that is a six-year period. The amount paid this year will be $192,665 as against $1,261,000 before.


John Alpheus Charlton: The hon. member for Queens is unavoidably absent on committee work and I know he would like a question asked regarding a case of lungworm that has been found, or at least suspected, in Prince Edward Island. Apparently this is the only case of lungworm that has ever been diagnosed as such. Apparently the farm now occupied by this farmer was once either a substation or a farm used for experimental purposes in some way. Now, as this lungworm is apparently found solely within the animal-the egg is picked up off the ground and passes its entire life cycle in the animal; there is no intermediary host-it is just possible, although I am not saying it is true, that these eggs might have been lying there for

some years from experimental work that was being carried on at the farm previously.
I think, although there has never been compensation paid for this, something should be done. Probably the cattle will take a long time to die. If they are not all slaughtered right now, they are in such poor condition when they do die that they are not worth anything for beef. It is a very debilitating disease, and they do lose a tremendous amount of weight. As this is the only case known in Canada, I think it would be only fair that this particular chap should receive compensation. Probably he has not been on the farm too long and has not too good a start, so probably could not afford to be put on the expense of losing his entire herd. Perhaps there is someway by which compensation could be paid and something learned from a study of the carcasses which was not known before. If they were slaughtered they might be worth something for experimental purposes.


James Garfield Gardiner: The only thing I can say is that the existence of the disease, if you could call it that, has been reported to the department and investigations have been started. We have not yet any report on it. If it has not already been done I would suggest to the hon. member that he give us all the particulars of the case about which he is speaking. Then we could keep track of it and if there is any necessity for doing anything we could do it.


John Alpheus Charlton: I think the minister misunderstood me. The hon. member for Queens has spoken to me on this and he is unavoidably absent. I was mentioning it on his behalf.


James Garfield Gardiner: You have the hon. member send us particulars.


John Alpheus Charlton: I think he was talking to the department, and presumably that is why the investigation is going ahead.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is going ahead. On the question of whether the individual is to be paid compensation, I presume that particular disease is not named amongst those for which we do pay compensation, but that does not prevent something being done.


John Alpheus Charlton: It does not prevent an order in council being passed. I suggest that has been done in other cases and this is a case in which that might be done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
22.	Livestock and poultry, $1,683,275.
John Alpheus Charlton: I have a question in connection with the sire loan policy. Can the minister give us any information as to where those sires were lent, what province they
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were in? I understand there was a considerable number, and that they were used in artificial insemination units across the dominion.


James Garfield Gardiner: Prince Edward Island, 24 bulls; Nova Scotia and New Brunswick combined, 77; Quebec, 249; Ontario, 137; Manitoba, 214; Saskatchewan, 200; Alberta, 302; British Columbia, 89. In Nova Scotia there are 59 artificial insemination units and in British Columbia there are 36.


John Alpheus Charlton: Does the government purchase these bulls entirely at the cost of the Canadian government?


James Garfield Gardiner: We buy them and put them out on loan to clubs.


John Alpheus Charlton: Do you take them back when they are disposed of?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, we move them around from time to time and buy others when it is necessary.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
23.	To provide for grants to fairs and exhibitions in accordance with regulations of the governor in council: for payments pursuant to agreements in force on March 31, 1956, with exhibition associations covering the construction of buildings and other major undertakings; and for a grant of $50,000 to the royal agricultural winter fair, Toronto, and freight assistance on livestock shipments for exhibition thereat, $926,500.
William Duncan McKay Wylie: In Medicine Hat, as you know, we have stampede exhibitions every year which last for three days. Perhaps the Minister of Agriculture knows more about that than I do, but we have never received a grant from the federal government or the provincial government. What I am wondering is how to go about getting a grant for a three-day stampede and exhibition, such as we have.


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member knows that we make grants to B fairs and A fairs, and they must qualify under the regulations to be designated as a B fair before they are entitled to any grant from here. The fairs below that category do have grants from provincial governments at different rates in the different provinces, but we establish the claim entirely on the basis as to whether they have paid out $5,000 over a period of years for an A fair and $3,000 for a B fair. If Medicine Hat has had a fair for three years and it has paid out $3,000 or more in prizes, then they have every right to apply here for a grant. The fact that they have not had one either indicates that they have not been paying out that much or they have not made application for it. There may be some other

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reasons that could be given for their not getting it, but I do not know of any at the moment.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Mr. Chairman, I am looking for information. When I read the Medicine Hat News I find there are so many conflicting statements that I just wonder where they come from. One party says that the federal government will not do anything and another one says, yes, they will if you go about it the right way. I am looking for information and I must thank the minister for the information he has given me.


George Clyde Nowlan: I notice some of these grants are for special fairs. What is included in that? There are class A fairs and class B fairs and then special fairs.


James Garfield Gardiner: We have an arrangement that started with New Brunswick, but we have it now with Newfoundland also; just the two, Newfoundland and New Brunswick, under which we make payments and they make payments. It is a little different from the other provinces.


Mr. MacKenzie:: It is the policy of the Department of Agriculture to pay fairly substantial grants to fairs that qualify as class A and class B. I am suggesting that possibly the class C fair should receive a grant for capital expenditures. I think that with respect to class A and class B fairs the department pays 25 per cent of the permanent capital expenditures. I would suggest that class C fairs could be treated along similar lines and be given a percentage of the capital expenditures they make at those fairs.


James Garfield Gardiner: As I said a moment ago, class C fairs are considered to be fairs that are assisted by the provinces. I think during the relief period we did follow the plan which is now suggested and we did make grants to fairs in the C category for putting up certain buildings for the showing of their livestock and that kind of thing. But, as is known by hon. members, when the war started we stopped all those grants, and when we started them up again after the war and after the period in which relief was given we again confined them to the A and B fairs. We expect that the provinces are probably giving assistance to the others.


William Albert Pommer: Under item 23 freight assistance is paid on livestock shipments for exhibition at the Royal agricultural winter fair at Toronto. I realize this is not a very large item when compared With many other items in the estimates. Can the minister tell us what formula is used in granting this assistance?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, the general policy is that the province pays the freight assistance on the livestock that is coming to the exhibition in all the provinces with the exception of Ontario. Nothing is paid there because it is close to the fair, I presume; at least, nothing is paid by the federal government. When we are billed for it we pay 75 per cent of the freight that has been paid by the provinces.


William Albert Pommer: In every province with the exception of Ontario?


James Garfield Gardiner: Excepting Ontario.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
25. Plant products-seeds, feeds, fertilizers, insecticides and fungicides control, $1,484,618.
John Alpheus Charlton: Mr. Chairman, how many prosecutions have been laid under the Fertilizers Act because of not maintaining the standard of analysis in fertilizer? How many cases have been checked and how many prosecutions have been laid, or how many warnings have been given, or whatever they do when fertilizer is not up to the standard of the analysis printed on the bag?


James Garfield Gardiner: There were no prosecutions in the year 1954-55. There were two detentions.


John Alpheus Charlton: Just what does the minister mean by "detentions"? Was the fertilizer held and not allowed to be sold?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, held for correction.


John Alpheus Charlton: Until it was correctly
analysed?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: And the analysis brought up to standard?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: Was there any indication that some fertilizer had been sold when the department officials caught it? There always has to be a period in which some is sold. Do they catch it when the batch comes off the mixer, or was some of the batch sold?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is difficult to say from this, but perhaps the set-up will give some idea of what is done. Inspection visits and official samples taken during the fertilizer year ended June 30, 1955, by districts were: Maritimes, 255 inspections; official samples, 227. In Quebec 1,189 inspections were made and 320 official samples taken. In eastern Ontario 222 inspections were made and 58 official samples were taken. In western Ontario 474 inspections were made and 480 official samples taken. In Manitoba 77 inspections were made and 16 official samples were taken. In Saskatchewan 223 inspections were

made and 6 official samples were taken. In Alberta 421 inspections were made and 25 official samples were taken. In British Columbia 625 inspections were made and 138 official samples were taken. Across Canada 3,486 inspections were made and 1,198 official samples were taken.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Alfred Robinson: It being five o'clock, shall I rise and report the resolutions, also report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day or the next sitting of this house as the case may be?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



PRIVATE BILLS

Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Is it my understanding that items under public bills and orders shall stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: The items under
private and public bills having been exhausted, the house will resume the business which was interrupted at five o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
25. Plant products-seeds, feeds, fertilizers, insecticides and fungicides control, $1,484,618.
James Alexander Smith: Is the
minister aware of the drastic increase in the cost of commercial fertilizers of the type used by farmers on the prairies which has occurred between 1946 and the present time and, if so, can he state whether the department has made any investigation into the causes of this increase in the cost of fertilizers? I am referring particularly to ammonium phosphate 11-48-0.


James Garfield Gardiner: Taking the index of fertilizer prices for 1939 as 100-2, they advanced to 181-2 in 1955 and in January, 1956, they were 181-1. The index showed a slight drop in the last year but previous to that prices had been going up constantly. I suppose part of that increase would be due to the general increase in prices which has taken place over that period of time. In addition to the small decline in the index figure there has been a more significant change in connection with the plant food unit basis. The average ton of mixed fertilizer contained 26-2 units of plant food in 1954 and 27-4 units in 1955, an increase of 24 pounds per ton. On a plant
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food basis fertilizer prices in 1955 were about $3 per ton cheaper than in 1954. Further, there has been a slight increase for this year to which I just referred.
Freight rates are an element in the increased cost of fertilizers. The percentage increases in fertilizer freight rates since 1947
are as follows:
1947	  100	per	cent
1948			121 per cent
1949	
131	per	cent1950, as at March 23	
140	per	centas at June 16	
145	per	cent1951	
162	per	cent1952	
170	per	cent1953, as at January 1	
185	per	centas at March 16	
198	per	cent


James Alexander Smith: Can the
minister state whether there is just the one company in Canada producing the type of fertilizer used in the west?


James Garfield Gardiner: I think that is right. During the war there was a plant at Calgary producing the ingredients, but that was taken over by the plant at Trail.


John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Chairman, I have
thought a great deal about this matter of fertilizers. I think much less has been done for the farmer than should have been done in connection with fertilizers. If there is one service which should be controlled by a crown corporation or some other agency not interested ultimately in making profits but which would be administered for the benefit of the farmer it is the manufacture of fertilizers. I think everyone will agree with that. I do not see much evidence of interest in the farmers' welfare in the matter of the production and sale of fertilizers.
I suggest to the minister that his department consider seriously doing something about this matter in order to cut down some part of the farmers' costs. I think the minister knows better than any of us in the house that farmers are fighting for their very existence. Everywhere the farmer looks he is met with mountains of opposition rising against him ready to overwhelm him in every direction. Whether he is going to survive will depend just how much good management is exercised by the Department of Agriculture in Ottawa together with other departments throughout Canada. Certainly the cost of several things could be cut, and one of those things is certainly fertilizer. We have any amount of the ingredients, and I believe fertilizers can be put together largely by machines so that we should be able to reduce the cost of production to an absolute minimum. I hope the minister will consider this most seriously, and he looks as though he intends to do that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
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Marketing service-
27.	Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $92,374.
George Clyde Nowlan: There is a reduction in this vote of $1,927,400. I realize that the amount of this vote is dependent upon the construction that takes place from year to year, but I wonder if the minister can explain this large reduction.


James Garfield Gardiner: As is known, we vote an amount each year and then items come back or there are supplementaries or otherwise which bring it up for the year to approximately the same figure.


John Alpheus Charlton: I take it that last year was a particularly high year because there were three large cold storages constructed in the western provinces, each costing over $1 million. Has the minister any idea as to what construction is going on? Would he give us the amounts actually spent each year for the past three or four years?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not know whether it is higher or not until I look at the figures. There were five in the west, not three. There was one at Regina, one at Saskatoon, one at Edmonton, one at Calgary, and one at Lethbridge, which were put in by one company. That was something over $1 million. There is an amount in the supplementaries, which are also before us of $1,623,000. It will make up for what we know is being undertaken for this year. There will be other amounts in the supplementaries as we go along dealing with them. You will find that on the first page of the supplementary estimates.


John Alpheus Charlton: That will bring it up to almost what it was last year?


James Garfield Gardiner: We expect it to get up to about the same each year.


John Alpheus Charlton: The list in the estimates book is nowhere near complete.


James Garfield Gardiner: No, the list in the estimates book is what we knew at the time the estimates were made out that we required. We put this other amount in the supplementary estimates to take care of what has come up in the meantime.


John Alpheus Charlton: The applications are in for these?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, the ones we are bringing down are for individual cases not provided for in the estimates.


John Alpheus Charlton: Could the minister give us a list of which applications have been received for the $1,600,000 in the supplementary estimates?
[Mr. Blackmore.l


James Garfield Gardiner: I have the supplementary estimates here, and it could be read when we come to the supplementaries if that would be satisfactory.


William Alfred Robinson: Does the committee wish to take item 601 with item 27?


John Alpheus Charlton: No, Mr. Chairman.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I have one question I should like to ask on item 27. There has been a good deal of discussion lately in Medicine Hat, as the minister knows, about cold storage plants. We realize that in southern Alberta we can raise the best corn of any part of Canada. Perhaps we have more dry weather and more sunshine. However, by the time it leaves the field and gets to the city of Edmonton or the city of Calgary it is a little wetter, one might say. There have been discussions in Medicine Hat regarding the building of a cold storage plant.
I have noticed that other cities have had assistance from the government in that regard. I am wondering whether the city of Medicine Hat or the people of Medicine Hat can get assistance to build a cold storage plant so we can process our corn, put it in sacks and deliver it to many points, not only to Edmonton and Calgary but to Winnipeg, for instance, where they never have good corn. Medicine Hat is the one place where we raise good corn, and I think we should know how to go about building a cold storage plant so we can ship our corn out of Medicine Hat in first class condition.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member for Medicine Hat asked how people go about getting grants for cold storage plants. The act provides that if the conditions are met as set out in the act, the government pays a subsidy of 33| per cent of the cost. They pay it all in the year when the plant is constructed. That requires, of course, that somebody else pay the other two-thirds, and that somebody else may be a co-operative or an individual concern that undertakes to put in cold storage. That assistance has been given now over quite a few years and it is available to Medicine Hat in common with other places.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I realize that that assistance is available, and I am very glad to have the minister's answer so we shall know just what to expect from the government.


Gage Workman Montgomery: This item refers to cold storage plants. I should like to ask the minister whether under this item might be taken up the matter of frozen food plants. They are called by a different name, nevertheless they are for the processing of agricultural products in order to keep them in a

fresh state for the market. In our province there is at least one firm that is considering seriously, and in fact is going ahead with such a plant. 1 know that the firm has been to Ottawa and discussed this with the departmental officials. Does that come under this item, and is there a possibility of their getting assistance from the department under these grants?


James Garfield Gardiner: I believe there is an application from Saint John, New Brunswick, for cold storage of some type. There has been some question raised as to whether it conforms in all particulars with our legislation. I am not in a position to say whether or not that is the case; but freezer plants of a type come under the act; that is, the type of plant that puts in lockers. If it is a cooperative it comes under the act; if it is not a co-operative, it does not.
Then there is another type of freezing plant which has no lockers. The five plants that are spoken of in the west are of a new type of freezer different from what we have had, except for one plant at Vancouver. There are some others contemplated elsewhere. I think it depends somewhat on what my hon. friend means by freezer plants; but they have made application and the matter is being considered.


Gage Workman Montgomery: The minister speaks of a locker plant. We have a locker plant. That locker plant is privately owned, but it does not prepare foods like a frozen food plant. Up to the present time we have been importing into this country from the United States large amounts of frozen foods, even into our own province; strawberries, peas, beans, rhubarb and all sorts of things like that. I think there is room for the development of what we refer to as a frozen food products plant. I gather from what the minister has said that if it is a co-operative arrangement it comes within the act, but if it is not a co-operative arrangement it does not come within the act. Am I right?


James Garfield Gardiner: You are right about the locker plants. If the locker plant is owned by a local butcher, for example, as it is in my own town in the west, he does not get a subsidy under this act; but if the people, either in the town or in the country round about, organize themselves into a co-operative and have a freezer plant, they do get 33J per cent assistance.
On the other type of plant, the condition is that the plant must be open to the public. If an individual goes into the business of freezing food products, in the sense of taking them in, freezing them and selling them to the public, I doubt very much whether he comes under the act; but if a person simply
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has a freezer plant and allows the general public to bring products in to be frozen, and then the people sell them, I do not think there is much question about that. Nevertheless I would want to have the case referred to the justice department before saying definitely that it could meet the conditions under the act.


Gage Workman Montgomery: In the vicinity where I live and for miles around we grow fine vegetables, but we can grow a great many more than we can consume. If I understood the minister, the plant would have to be one that would be open for freezing and processing and I as a farmer could take vegetables and have them frozen and processed but it would be up to me to sell them. Is that what the minister means; or would it be the case that the plant would purchase the vegetables from the farmer, freeze them and then ship them to other parts of the province or outside the province? In other words it would become a local business. If they could get assistance under these arrangements, then what is the difference between a co-operative building a plant and 15 farmers or 15 businessmen getting together and building a plant? In the second place, if they can come under the provision, will they get assistance not only in the building of the plant but in the furnishing of the machinery and equipment?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is very difficult to answer a question of that kind without knowing all the particulars in connection with it. Those are just the things that we are becoming acquainted with in connection with the application that has been made. In general terms the position is that if a man puts up a plant and then says that all his space is for rent; then somebody else buys the commodities from the farmers in the neighbourhood, puts them in there and then takes them out and sells them, and I think that is pretty generally done, we have paid the 33J per cent. But if the individual who owns the plant goes right into the business himself and utilizes all the space, and there is no space for the general public at all, then I have no doubt about that case either. He does not come under the act.
There may be some place in between where the line would have to be drawn in a legal sense, but I should not like to try to define it here. There proper procedure is the one they are following of writing us, as they did. They will get a reply and we will have adjustments of ideas, because there has to be a certain percentage of the plant utilized for certain purposes. If a man has constructed a building and most of the space in it is occupied with something else, he would have difficulty in coming under the act.

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Gage Workman Montgomery: I think this application came from an area quite near my home, and I know such a plant would be of great advantage to many of the farmers there who have been in trouble over potatoes. If we could get them to change to mixed farming, garden farming and one thing and another it might be of great benefit. I hope the minister and the department will give as generous construction to the act and assistance to these people as they possibly can.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, that will be met. We have already had communications, but up to now they have not actually made an application. They are asking for the kind of information the hon. member is seeking. They will get it, and if they submit an application it will be considered.


Mr. Campbell:: Would the grant be available to a co-operative to buy a plant that is already in existence?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, the regulation is quite definite on that point. If they even proceed to build a plant before they have been authorized by us to go ahead with it we do not pay. They must present their case and have it considered before they have a plant at all. Not even the buying of the property is consented to under the act.


Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell: The minister did not get my point. I know of a case of locker facilities already in existence where the owner is gradually going bankrupt. If a co-operative in the district wanted to purchase that locker plant could they get a grant?


James Garfield Gardiner: They had better get in touch with us before they do. If they define the case as it is they will probably get word back indicating that they can or cannot.


George William McLeod: I noted carefully the last few words of the minister, and I have had a problem placed before me by the Shuswap Okanagan dairy industries co-operative association of Vernon. Last year they made an application to the department for the subsidy in connection with the building of cold storage facilities for a branch which they were opening in Kamloops. Technical difficulties arose, and I must admit that the dairy did go ahead before final approval was given. Apparently the plant meets all the specifications of the department, and if it had not been for this technicality they would have been eligible for the subsidy.
However, when I took up the matter the other day I was advised that it might be reconsidered, but that since the main and supplementary estimates had already been prepared it was doubtful if anything could be done this year. I must say I was rather surprised when I looked at the top of page

118 to see an amount of $6,500 provided in this year's estimates with this designation: "Kamloops, Shuswap Okanagan dairy industries co-operative association." These two facts do not jibe, and possibly the minister could give us an explanation at this time.


James Garfield Gardiner: The only explanation I can give is that when I was in that area, I think it was last fall, I had the pleasure of visiting the plant along with those who are on the board. There are some misunderstandings that have not been cleared up and unless they are cleared satisfactorily there will not be a grant, but I am not prepared to say at this moment whether there will or will not be a grant.


George Clyde Nowlan: Before the item carries may I say that the comments of some hon. members are very reminiscent of problems that some of us have had in dealing with this item in the past. I was a little surprised to hear the minister say that the whole 33J per cent is paid in one payment. I think the regulation in that respect must have been changed-


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right; two years ago.


George Clyde Nowlan: -because as I recall it was paid in three annual instalments and that used to provoke some difficulty. The minister also spoke of co-operatives as if this grant was only payable to co-operatives, but I think it is also payable to privately owned plants provided they make provision for public use of the cold storage facilities.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. It is only in the case of locker plants that we only pay to co-operatives.


George Clyde Nowlan: I want to add one thing
further. I hope the minister and his departmental officials will give pretty careful consideration to the regulations. I have had quite a bit of experience with them. I certainly want to congratulate the department and the officers generally on the way in which they have administered this rather difficult problem, because I think every hon. member has pressure brought to bear on him with regard to installing a cold storage plant in an inadequate building. It seems to be felt that if the member has sufficient political pull he will be able to get a subsidy. This has created difficulties, but I think that on the whole the department has administered the plan very well.
In fact, I think it is perhaps a little bit too strict, and I want to give one illustration. I have in mind a cold storage plant in Nova Scotia owned by the United Fruit Company which met the specifications of the department. It was one on which a subsidy had been paid and it was as modem as most cold

storage plants in Canada. The company-proposed to put in a vegetable cold storage branch in connection with the fruit. There was to be separate construction. It was to be a part of the same building but an addition to it. I am sure that everything would have been of the most modern construction, that the most modern machinery would have been installed and all the rest of it. Yet because of some technical interpretation of the regulation-and I am not quarrelling with the administration, because I think it was interpreted fairly although strictly by the officials -that cold storage grant was refused on account of the particular wording of the regulation. I can assume also that in the relatively near future the minister will receive some requests.
I am looking for an item which is not here and which I cannot find in the supplementary estimates, but I will ask him about that matter later. For instance, he will be interested to know that the new apple marketing organization in the valley is meeting today for the first time. As to the possibilities of cold storage developments there, for instance I can imagine gas storage, perhaps in smaller units, being installed within the relatively near future. That development again is going to raise the question of installation in existing structures rather than perhaps the construction of entirely new ones.
I hope the minister will ask his officials responsible for this matter to consider these regulations very carefully so that the spirit will be observed as well as, we hope, the letter. I suggest that when adequate modern cold storage facilities are brought into being they be encouraged in every way possible rather than be perhaps denied encouragement because of a technical or I will say a strict interpretation of what is possibly an overly strict regulation.


James Garfield Gardiner: We have paid subsidies on two plants-one in Quebec and one in Ontario-that have this gas system of cold storage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service-
28.	Agricultural economics, $637,362.
John Alpheus Charlton: Can the minister tell me whether the economics branch here in the dominion department is co-operating with the department of economics at the provincial level with regard to these booklets that the department of economics at Guelph is putting out to help farmers in keeping their books and preparing their income tax returns? Is there any liaison between the two departments or is it made general? Are the
Supply-Agriculture
people across Canada getting the benefit of the booklet the Ontario people have, or is it just in Ontario?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, we have had co-operative studies between our officials and the Ontario officials in preparing that booklet.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is it being printed by the dominion department and made available to farmers across Canada, or is it just made available in Ontario?


James Garfield Gardiner: My information is that it is one of the publications of the province, that it is being printed by them. However, I assume that if we were going to put it in any of the other provinces probably we would have to have understandings with the provincial departments there as well.


John Alpheus Charlton: I suggest to the minister that it is a very good book and that it is very helpful to farmers in keeping their books and in making their income tax returns. I think it would be a good suggestion if the minister would look into the matter further and find out whether the other provincial governments would not co-operate with this department and see that it is made available to other farmers across the dominion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service-
29.	Dairy products, $798,723.
John Alpheus Charlton: There has been a considerable amount of controversy lately about cheese production in that we do not know for sure how much cheese there is going to be for export. The home consumption has gone up quite a bit. I maintain that production is not keeping pace with the increasing domestic demand for cheese. I wonder what the department is doing to meet the situation.
As the minister knows, cheese is one of the products for which, in most years at least, we have been able to get a premium on the United Kingdom market. I think the situation now is that we could probably demand a premium of 2 cents or 3 cents in the United Kingdom market for cheese if we had it to export at this time. I wonder whether the minister can give us any information as to what is being done to aid the cheese producers to build up again this export market in the United Kingdom?


James Garfield Gardiner: To begin with, we have an agreement with the Ontario cheese producers. They have a new name. They changed their name last week, I think it was. In any event, the hon. member knows whom I mean. I refer to the co-operative cheese producers in Ontario. We have an agreement with them under which we guarantee them at the bank for 22-5 cents a pound or


Elmore Philpott: I want to say just a word about selling cheese in Canada. I know my wife complains that when she goes into these big super markets right here in Ottawa, about half the time she cannot get any good, plain, ordinary Canadian cheese. They have nothing but this Kraft stuff and other substitutes.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall the item carry?


John Alpheus Charlton: No. I rather hesitate to go along with the minister's idea that all the cheese that is produced here in Canada could be sold here. It is working to that end, I will agree. I will say this for the chain stores; they have done a remarkable job of merchandising cheese. Why? Because they put it up in attractive packages that people like. They like to see what they are getting. The chain stores have done a remarkable job in increasing the consumption of cheese. It is true that much of it is soft cheese or processed cheese but there is a good deal of cheddar, both white and coloured.
I think it is a mistake to depend entirely on the domestic market. Even if we reduce the consumption in the domestic market and hold the product off the domestic market, I think the United Kingdom market should be maintained if that is at all possible. As I say-and I think I am correct in saying it -at the present time the United Kingdom is paying for Canadian cheese a premium of at least 2 cents over some of the other cheese. I think they are quite willing to pay it, at least I understand they are, for Canadian cheese. I believe that consideration is sufficient to warrant a little increase in the production of cheese, with enough set aside of our Canadian production, to maintain at least a quota in the United Kingdom market.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not know that this is the time to discuss that particular point. However, I would point out that the British have always paid a premium for our cheese over and above New Zealand cheese, which is the big source of the supply that comes into the country. New Zealand sells to Britain far more than we sell, and has been doing so ever since the first war. During that time Britain gave us a premium of up to 3 cents over New Zealand cheese, but at the present time all Britain is buying from us is what they must have to serve a certain part of the trade.
Under that condition, up to this year they were buying our cheese from the board at 2 cents less than cheese was being sold in Ontario. I am not saying we were very enthusiastic about that, any more than some people were enthusiastic about our selling butter cheaper in some places. Nevertheless, under the circumstances under which they were doing that, probably it was the proper thing. It is their business.
What I mean by saying it can be sold in Canada is that we have great difficulty after we get west of Winnipeg in getting cheddar cheese. My friend says there is difficulty in getting it in Ottawa. If there is difficulty in getting it in Ottawa I would say there is 10 times as much difficulty in getting it after you get west of Winnipeg. We know from experience that the cheese that is now made can be sold there at a higher price than you have been selling it to Britain. I am not saying you should not sell any to Britain. They are selling it, and they are doing so in order to try to stay in that market. It is their business and they make their own decisions about it.
There is one other thing I should have said when I was speaking before. We, of course, pay a premium of 2 cents on 94 score cheese and we pay a premium of 1 cent on

93 score cheese. This is paid in addition to the other assistance which we give in connection with cheese.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I was tempted by the remark of my hon. friend from Vancouver South to ask the minister when cheese is not cheese. What I mean is, is there any regulation or any pure food law which would compel people putting up these packaged cheeses to state upon the package the contents? I know that a great many people who buy these packaged cheeses, so-called, are under the impression that they are buying cheese. Actually they are not buying it. My friend calls it a substitute, but I would call it a mixture of this and that. A great many people in the west are not too familiar with what good cheese is. They are under the impression that because they have these dairy factories in the east, they are getting good cheese when they buy that stuff.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not want to be critical of Kraft, for example, who put up a great deal of this cheese. Two years ago we had a discussion along this line and I made the rather definite statement that you could not buy cheddar cheese in the west. One check we made revealed that there was only one store in the west that had good cheddar cheese, and that was in Calgary. It was a special cheese store. Apparently the Kraft people paid more attention to the remark than anybody else, and since that time they have begun to cut up these big cheeses into half pound packages, and wrap them properly, and they have been selling them on the prairies at a very good price. I think it costs about 76 cents a pound when it gets out there in that form, so no one is losing any money on that particular sale.
The point I want to make is that while we were trying to encourage some people to become interested in selling this cheese out there by telling them where there was a market in which they could sell it, the Kraft people listened to us more than the people to whom we were trying to talk. They went out there and sold it, and you can get good cheddar cheese in the stores now.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I think there is a point that the people learn to eat cheese by eating cheese. So long as they eat some of the stuff they are eating at the moment I do not think they will ever learn what good cheese is. Therefore there will never be a demand created for good cheese. I have not mentioned any manufacturer's name, but I do not believe the minister has quite answered my question.
The point I want to get at is this. Is there a regulation or law which prohibits these
Supp ly-A gricu Iture
people from selling anything as cheese which is not, in fact, cheese undiluted; that is the point.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, there are composition standards. Of course when you take what is generally known as Kraft it has been specially prepared, and is sold as that .The dealer does not attempt to sell it as anything but what it is, but it is not what we generally call cheddar cheese.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Does the Kraft company, which has probably imported more cheese into this country than anybody else, sell that cheese as New Zealand cheese or is it mixed up with Ontario cheese and sold as Canadian cheese?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, most of it is brought in for processing. Some of it is sold directly on the market, depending on who brings it in. If the Kraft people bring it in, they use it for making up this special Kraft cheese. It is a processed cheese. It may have some Canadian cheese in it, but there is more moisture in it than is in the ordinary cheese.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: I do not think that is right.
I do not think they should be allowed to bring in New Zealand cheese and mix it with our good cheese and sell it at a high price, taking a huge profit. That is what it amounts to, so far as I can see.


John Alpheus Charlton: In so far as this processed cheese is concerned, I presume the regulations would be somewhat similar to the butter regulations. Is there any moisture content that the cheese has to contain?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, both moisture and salt.


John Alpheus Charlton: In cheese?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a salt regulation for cheese, too.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is there a moisture regulation?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a regulation for moisture and salt.


John Alpheus Charlton: Does the soft cheese have to conform to a standard? How about cheese spreads; is there any standard for them?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a standard for it.


John Alpheus Charlton: What about ice cream? As we all know, there is a good deal of what is sometimes called frozen custard or of ice cream sold under various names. What is the standard of butter fat content for that soft ice cream, if it is properly called soft ice cream? Is it within the law to call it soft ice cream of must it be called some other name? What are the regulations under which that is sold in comparison with real ice cream?

Supply-Agriculture


James Garfield Gardiner: The ice cream regulations are to the effect that ice cream shall contain not less than 10 per cent by weight of milk fat; not less than 36 per cent by weight of food solids; not less than 1-8/10 pounds of food solids per gallon, of which more than 50/100ths of a pound shall be milk and not more than J of 1 per cent by weight of stabilizer, and so on. The regulations are all set out.


John Alpheus Charlton: It is within the law, then, to call this soft product, whatever it is, soft ice cream?


James Garfield Gardiner: So far as the content of it is concerned, it is within the law. It is just not frozen as solidly as the other.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is it correct to say that it cannot be frozen hard? Does it contain too much moisture, and if it were frozen hard the crystals would show up?


James Garfield Gardiner: My experience has been that the ice cream that cannot be frozen hard is nearly all cream. We make it at home sometimes, but you cannot buy it in the stores.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
32. Livestock products, stockyard supervision and furs, $769,648.
Andrew Ernest Robinson: Could the minister tell us what duties are performed by stockyard supervisors?


James Garfield Gardiner: Their duty is to enforce the stockyard and livestock regulations under the Livestock and Livestock Products Act at the different stockyards where they are in charge.


Andrew Ernest Robinson: I take it that it is more of an inspection job than anything else, to see that the act is followed. Is that the idea?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, very much an inspection job.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
34. Marketing of agricultural products, including temporary appointments that may be required to be made notwithstanding the Civil Service Act, the amount available for such appointments not to exceed $6,000, $100,000.
George Clyde Nowlan: Just what is included in this item? It says, "marketing of agricultural products". We have various groups for livestock, poultry and cheese, and we have had everything else. I was wondering just what is included in the marketing of products. In the breakdown there is an item for marketing projects, about $55,000. I should like the minister to give us a word of explanation with respect to that.
I also see there is a provision here that has to do with appointments notwithstanding the

Civil Service Act. The amount available for such purpose is not to exceed $6,000. That looks almost like a casual appointment. In any event I am wondering just what is proposed, because when I turn to the breakdown I find there is a lot of money available for casual employment. I have something else to say about that in a minute, but I should like to get from the minister a picture of just what is involved in the item.


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. Chairman, when I first came to the department 20 years ago there was not any marketing service in the department. When we made the classification which I indicated earlier, when we were talking about splitting it up again, we brought in those five branches, marketing being one of them, and we set up certain amounts for the promotion of the marketing of farm products. In more recent days-I think it actually came up during the war and has been continued since-we asked to have an amount put in for advertising farm products. One of the uses that we did make of it was putting those advertisements out all over the country before we started the present butter program. "Butter is better" is one advertisement that we put all over the place, and it did increase the sale of butter. Anything that is undertaken that way we finance out of this fund. If we were to start out, for example, to promote the sale of more cheese or the eating of more apples the money would come out of this fund.
Then at that time we had in mind setting up a plan under which we might carry on greater operations than this amount of money would provide for, and we put in this one salary under the condition that we could not pay a man any more than $6,000. As a matter of fact we have not paid him up to date; we have been using the money for advertising purposes.


George Clyde Nowlan: What is proposed, Mr. Chairman? I understand advertising. There is a provision of $35,000 in the breakdown for advertising. Then we have $52,300 for marketing projects. Just what is involved in the term, and what is done under those marketing projects?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, it is utilized for the study of marketing problems such as grading bacon, grading butter, grading cheese or products of that kind.


George Clyde Nowlan: Would that not come under the vote of the department? The minister has separate funds for livestock-


James Garfield Gardiner: It could, but the hon. member will note that this is something that goes on. These marketing projects are, for example, something that we start up and

carry on for two or three months or for six months, and for that reason we do not think we should set up a civil service appointment in order to cover that particular work. We get some person appointed. He may be a provincial man or he may be a man engaged in the dairy industry somewhere who can do this job for us and we pay him up to $6,000. We cannot pay him any more on these projects that the hon. member speaks of. He may be examining into one of these projects, is our bacon properly graded, is our butter properly graded, and so on? We have him check on that and report to us.


George Clyde Nowlan: Can the minister give us an example of the project that he proposes to carry out under this $6,000 vote?


James Garfield Gardiner: The one that is on at present is in connection with the project for bacon that I have just spoken of. We have a project on now in Montreal studying the grading of bacon to determine whether or not it is being done in the proper way and whether the public are being sold what they think they are getting. Take the matter that we discussed in the house about five years ago about putting coloured paper on bacon, and so on. These are the kinds of things that are investigated under these projects.


George Clyde Nowlan: I can quite realize the importance of this. I shall draw the minister's attention to a marketing project to which I wish he would give some special attention in the immediate future, in co-operation with the Department of Trade and Commerce. He will know that Great Britain has now released sterling exchange, or it is released so far as the British West Indies are concerned. There is a potential market there for the sale of Nova Scotia apples at a relatively profitable price. Last year as well there was a market there, but owing to the fact there was not sufficient cold storage space available I know of one firm which lost a market for 4,000 boxes of apples at a relatively high price.
I realize that the Department of Agriculture does not control transport, but in view of the sudden announcement of the relaxation of restrictions on sterling I can pretty well envisage what is going to happen in the next few months with respect to that market. I do think there should be the closest co-operation between the Department of Agriculture marketing branch and the Department of Transport to find out what cold
Supply-Agriculture
storage space is going to be available in Canadian National Steamships-and there will not be enough-and also to see if arrangements can be made with ships plying between Montreal and the Caribbean that have cold storage space that could, of course, stop at Halifax or Saint John to pick up those apples which, for the first time since before the war at any rate, will have access without any restrictions on exchange to not an extensive market but to a reasonably profitable one and one which is highly desirable to foster in every way possible.
Will the minister mark that down as the No. 1 marketing project? If he does, I shall vote unanimously and enthusiastically for the passing of this particular item.


James Garfield Gardiner: I shall consider it.


John Alpheus Charlton: I notice that in the year 1954-55, $10,336 was spent under this item. For the year 1955-56 the actual expenditure to December 1, 1955, was $7,431 and the estimated balance for the year, $16,469. I suggest to the minister that the marketing service is one of the most important branches in this whole Dominion of Canada so far as agriculture is concerned. I suggest that very seriously, because marketing is the most important segment of the agricultural problem right now.
I am not criticizing in any way the amount of money that is spent, either in a special project or in any other project, if it is going to do some good in the marketing of agricultural products, but I wonder how the item of $100,000 is arrived at when last year's figure was only $23,900? I suggest the minister must have something in view. Since it is six o'clock perhaps I could ask him to bring in the program the next time the estimates are up and give us some of the projects that he is planning to do this year over and above those that were done last year.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr, Harris:: Mr. Speaker, on Monday we shall take the resolution in my name with respect to fiscal arrangements with the provinces; then the items which appear on today's order paper as Nos. 4, 5, 6 and 7.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Question

[Stage Direction]
The following answer, deposited with the Clerk of the house, is printed in the official report of debates pursuant to standing order 39:

Mr. Diefenbaker: How many Canadians were employed during the winter of 1954/55, by the various contractors on the haul to D.E.W. line points out of Eagle, Alaska, into the Yukon?
Answer by:	Mr. Langlois, Parliamentary
Assistant, for the Minister of Transport:
The government is not in possession of other information concerning the transport of D.E.W. line supplies out of Eagle, Alaska, than that given in the general statement on this matter made on April 9, 1956, at page 2725 of Hansard.
[The following items were passed in committee
of supply]:



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Administration service-
1.	Departmental administration (including advisory committee on agricultural services), $670,015.
2.	Information service, $480,427.
3.	Contributions to commonwealth agricultural bureaux in a total amount of £34,928, notwithstanding that payments may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars, estimated as of December, 1955, which is, $97,799.
Science service-
Science service administration-
4.	Operation and maintenance, including an amount of $134,025 for grants in aid of agricultural research in universities and other scientific organizations in Canada, $863,569.
5.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,100,000.
6.	Bacteriology, $242,748.
7.	Botany and plant pathology, $1,474,719.
8.	Chemistry, $754,679.
9.	Entomology, including a grant of $40,000 to the international congress of entomology to assist in defraying the cost of the tenth international congress of entomology to be held in Canada in 1956, $2,210,475.
10.	Forest biology, $2,167,733.
11.	Plant protection, $839,688.
Experimental farms service-
12.	Experimental farms service administration, $211,122.
Central experimental farm, including research and co-ordinating divisions for the experimental farms service-
13.	Operation and maintenance, including a grant of $5,000 to the international congress of genetics to assist in defraying the costs of the tenth international congress of genetics to be held in Canada in 1958, $2,428,466.
14.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $306,000.
Branch experimental farms, substations and illustration stations-
15.	Operation and maintenance, $6,953,586.
16.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $2,122,000.
Production service-
17.	Production service administration, $78,515. Animal pathology-
18.	Operation and maintenance, $715,074.
19.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $96,535.
Health of animals-
20.	Administration of Animal Contagious Diseases Act, and Meat and Canned Foods Act, $5,698,838.
21.	Compensation for animals slaughtered, including compensation for eggs destroyed from infected premises under terms and conditions approved by the governor in council, $290,080.
22.	Live stock and poultry, $1,683,275.
23.	To provide grants to fairs and exhibitions in accordance with regulations of the governor in council; for payments pursuant to agreements in force on March 31, 1956, with exhibition associations covering the construction of buildings and other major undertakings; and for a grant of $50,000 to the royal agricultural winter fair, Toronto, and freight assistance on livestock shipments for exhibition thereat, $926,500.
24.	Grants to agricultural organizations, as detailed in the estimates, $234,400.
25.	Plant products-seeds, feeds, fertilizers, insecticides and fungicides control, $1,484,618.
Marketing service-
26.	Marketing service administration, $365,828.
27.	Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $92,374.
28.	Agricultural economics, $637,362.
29.	Dairy products, $798,723.
30.	To provide for grants and other assistance in accordance with the Cheese and Cheese Factory Improvement Act, $1,050,000.
31.	Fruit, vegetables and maple products, and honey, $1,442,226.
32.	Livestock products, stockyard supervision and furs, $769,648.
33.	Poultry products, $765,680.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, July 16, 1956