1955-07-15

Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops):: Mr. Speaker,
I rise on a point of order, or perhaps it is a mixed point of order and question of privilege. It concerns the non-compliance with an order of the house in response to which a return was tabled yesterday. On June 23 a question which I asked was passed by the house as an order for return. It concerned the number of appeals taken to the Minister of National Revenue against assessment of succession duties. Part 3 of the question read as follows:
Of the appeals covered in part 2, were any taken by trust companies as executors? If so, what companies and how many by each company?
In the reply tabled by the Secretary of State containing information received from the Minister of National Revenue there is given in parts 1 and 2 the number of appeals taken, and then the return to part 3 is as follows:
Yes, in 29 cases by seven different trust companies. The names of the companies and the number of appeals by each may not be disclosed by reason of section 54 of the Dominion Succession Duty Act.
Section 54 of the Dominion Succession Duty Act, Mr. Speaker, has no application whatsoever to the situation and does not in any way preclude the information being given as requested. I therefore suggest to you that the return as tabled is an evasion of the question and is a non-compliance or refusal to comply with the order of the house. Therefore I ask you, sir, under the precedent of citation 445 in Beauchesne, second edition, to see that the necessary order is made discharging this order so that another return in corrected form may be brought down.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. gentleman was kind enough to let me know he was going to raise a point of order based on citation 445 of Beauchesne, second edition, which reads as follows:
Where an order for a return is found not to comprise all the particulars desired, it is usual to discharge the order, and make another in a corrected form. Sometimes, however, without discharging the order, public papers or other particulars have been ordered to be added to the return, or the order for the return has been read and amended.
This citation is taken from May, twelfth edition, page 562. I think the hon. member is
under a misapprehension. Citation 445 applies to an order which has been moved but before it has been tabled. If it is found necessary to add anything in the meantime, then the order for a return that was made may be discharged and another one substituted. But we are past the stage of citation 445. An order has been made and pursuant to that order a return has been tabled. Therefore citation 445 does not apply. It would have applied before the order was tabled.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, I do not quite understand how it could have been discovered before the order was tabled because, of course, until the order was tabled there was no means of knowing what the reply was going to be. I thought that this would be the preferable way of proceeding rather than referring to citation 450, although I do think that in some respects it is applicable. It reads as follows:
If parties neglect to make returns in reasonable time, they are ordered to make them forthwith; or so much of returns as has not been made. If they continue to withhold them, they are ordered to attend at the bar of the house . . .
This seems to me to be an extreme course under the present circumstances. However,
I point out that although a return has been made it is not a complete return and therefore would fall under that portion of citation 450 reading "or so much of returns as has not been made", because the answer to part 3 of the question is not contained in the purported answer thereto. This is not a case where the minister can say he refuses to answer. This is an order of the house, and the order has not been complied with, at least in part. As I say, I do not see how that could have been discovered before any returns were tabled. If that rule were held, then the only other way of dealing with it would be under citation 450 which goes on to refer to calling the offending party before the bar of the house. I did not want to invoke that procedure at this point.


Mr. Speaker:: Would the hon. member be satisfied to let me have a few more hours to deal with the point because, just by reading citation 445, that would be my interpretation of it. I would like to study citation 445 in conjunction with citation 444 which applies to addresses, and citation 450. If the hon. member would be kind enough to let me have a few hours to examine the point I could perhaps deal with it tomorrow at the opening of the house.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Edmund Davie Fulton: That will be quite satisfactory, Mr. Speaker.



PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. O. C. Trainor (Winnipeg South):: On a
question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I should like to call your attention to page 6164 of yesterday's Hansard in which the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) is reported as follows:
No government statement has ever been made that warrants anything the hon. member has said. This is the kind of mischievous speech that is specialized in by the hon. member for Calgary South.
Then again, at page 6165, he said:
Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend started by reading a statement of policy stated by myself. He asked the Prime Minister if there was any change in that policy. The Prime Minister said no. He asked the Minister of Public Works, as Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce: "Has there been any change in policy?" The Minister of Public Works said no. Now he asks me if there is any change in policy-


Mr. Speaker:: May I interrupt the hon. member just to point out to him that what he is referring to now is a debate which occurred in committee. I feel that the proper course for the hon. member to follow is to rise on a point of privilege or order, if he so wishes, when the house is back in committee because the house does not know anything about what goes on in committee.


Owen C. Trainor: Very well, Mr. Speaker.



MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS

[Stage Direction]
Tenth report of standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.-Mr. Hosking.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Castleden (Yorkton):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. What steps are being taken to protect the rights of individual Indians on that portion of the Caughnawaga reserve which is to be expropriated for the St. Lawrence seaway, particularly in view of the fact many of the persons concerned have very little knowledge of written English let alone the legal terms which are used in drawing up documents.


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: I gather, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was not in the house 

when the Minister of Transport had a bill before the house recently to amend the St. Lawrence seaway authority legislation to confirm the right of that corporation to expropriate Indian lands. At that time this question was raised and was answered in part by me and in part by my predecessor, who is now Minister of Finance. I do not think there are any difficulties at all of a real character. There are some individuals who have constituted themselves as advisers to a group of dissident Indians, not members of the band council at Caughnawaga, who are suggesting that there is something extra-legal or illegal about what it is proposed to do. Now, of course, the only way a legal question of that kind can be settled is in the courts. It is our advice, and we think it is good advice, that what has been done by this parliament, and what is being done by the governor in council, is completely within the law.


George Hugh Castleden: May I ask a supplementary question and I did not care particularly about his reference to my not being in the house. I heard what was said. At that time the minister said that the most friendly relationship existed between the department and the band concerned.
My question is with regard to certain individual Indians who do not understand legal phraseology. I think band meetings should be held where responsible persons from the department who understand the question would explain the situation to the Indians themselves. It is because of this lack of understanding on the part of the Indians that the rumours get around and hurt everyone.



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. E. Robinson (Bruce):: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to ask a question of the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Fisheries, in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Sinclair). My question has reference to a great many resolutions I have in my hand, copies of which have been forwarded to the minister's office, in connection with further assistance in fighting lamprey eels in lake Huron and Georgian bay. The question is this: Is the department considering placing an amount in the estimates for 1956 to comply with the request made in these resolutions?


Mr. J. Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries):: I wish to thank the hon. member for having given notice of his intention to ask this question. A great many representations have been made

by fishermen and town councils concerning lamprey control and the erection of barriers in rivers flowing into lake Huron and Georgian bay. The policy at the present time is to endeavour to eradicate the lamprey in lake Superior and thus preserve the lake trout stocks in that lake. If this proves successful, then efforts will be made toward the eradication of the sea lamprey in the other lakes. It is expected that the great lakes fisheries commission soon will be seized with the responsibility of lamprey control. At that time these representations will be brought to the attention of the commission.
I might also point out that the time for the erection of barricades in the rivers for this year has passed, and that by next year we hope the commission rather than the Department of Fisheries will be doing this work.



LOBSTERS


[Stage Direction]
AREA 7b, NEW BRUNSWICK
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. J. Robichaud (Gloucester):: In the
absence of the Minister of Fisheries, I should like to direct a question to the parliamentary assistant. In view of the small catch of lobsters reported for the spring fishing season which closed on June 30, can the parliamentary assistant inform the house whether the department is prepared to consider requests from individual fishermen or groups of fishermen and from the municipal council of Gloucester county, asking for the granting of a one month fall season extending from September 10 to October 10 for lobster fishing district 7B?


John Watson MacNaught: I wish to thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his intention to ask this question.
The department is prepared at any time to consider requests from individuals or groups of fishermen for changes in the regulations. Our officials have been present at meetings where this was discussed, and it has also been brought to our attention by representatives from other constituencies. For this reason we have investigated the problem.
I have a statement here showing the catches of lobster in district 7B for 1954 and 1955, together with a summary of the catches in the provinces and counties. Since this statement is quite long, too long to read, I should like the permission of the house to place it on Hansard.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Watson MacNaught: The statement is as
follows:
Inquiries of the Ministry
Lobsters-District 7B May 1st to June 30th
COUNTY New Brunswick	1954 (Cwts.)	1955 (Cwts.)Restigouche 	1,378	1,280Gloucester 	14,305	11,274N orthumberland	10,133	8,643Kent 	1,282	397Total 	
Prince Edward	Island	27,098	21,594Prince 	10,199	13,753Queens 	15,212	20,413Kings 	36,017	34,156Total 	
Nova Scotia	61,428	68,322Cumberland 	6,897	7,359Pictou 	23,474	25,088Antigonish 	9,309	9,228Guysborough 	1,696	1,438Inverness 	5,961	7,641Total 	47,337	50,754GRAND TOTAL .	135,863	140,670Lobsters-District 7B 1954 and 1955 1954	MAY	JUNE	TOTAL(Cwts.)	(Cwts.)	(Cwts.)63. Restigouche ..	.... 803	575	1,37864. Gloucester W.	
793	304	1,09765. Gloucester C.	
1,987	1,676	3,66366. Miscou & Ship.	Is. 3,419	3,647	7,06667. Gloucester E.	
547	475	1,02268. Gloucester S.	.... 765	692	1,45770. North N.E. ...	
1,654	2,502	4,15673. North S.E. ...	... 4,024	1,953	5,97775. Kent North ..	
551	731	1,28282. Prince West .	.... 2,725	3,501	6,22683. Prince East ..	
2,207	1,766	3,97385. Queens West ..	
5,369	2,586	7,95586. Queens East ..	.... 4,030	3,227	7,25787. Kings South ..	11,847	4,209	16,05688. Kings North ..	.... 11,664	8,297	19,96145. Cumb. N.W. ..	.... 1,170	294	1,46446. Cumb. N.E. ..	
4,657	776	5,43311. Pictou W	.... 13,702	4,977	18,67912. Pictou E	1,043	4,79513. Antigonish 	.... 6,432	2,877	9,30914. Guys. N	.. . . 1,039	657	1,6963. Inverness S. ..	.... 3,453	2,508	5,961TOTALS 	.... 86,590	49,273 1955	135,863MAY	JUNE	TOTAL(Cwts.)	(Cwts.)	(Cwts.)63. Restigouche ...	.... 931	349	12864. Gloucester W.	.... 1,389	123	1,51265. Gloucester C.	
1,448	453	1,90166. Miscou & Ship.	Is. 3,068	2,002	5,07067. Gloucester E.	.... 1,073	419	1,49268. Gloucester S.	.... 875	424	1,29970. North N.E. ...	.... 2,691	1,278	3,96973. North S.E. ...	.... 3,495	1,179	4,67475. Kent North ...	.... 204	193	39782. Prince West ..	
5,430	2,739	8,16983. Prince East ..	
2,497	3,087	5,58485. Queens West .	.... 8,397	2,130	10,52786. Queens East .	.... 6,840	3,046	9,88687. Kings South ..	.... 11,154	4,333	15,48788. Kings North .	
13,310	5,359	18,66945. Cumb. N.W. ..	.... 1,275	192	1,46746. Cumb. N.E. ..	.... 5,313	579	5,89211. Pictou W	
14,283	6,098	20,38112. Pictou E	... . 3,821	886	4,70713. Antigonish 	
6,725	2,503	9,22814. Guys. N	
808	630	1.4383. Inverness S. ..	.... 4,833	2,808	7,641TOTALS 	.... 99,860	40,810	140,670
Supply-Trade and Commerce
It will be noted from this statement that the total catch for 1955 increased by 480,700 pounds over that of 1954. In the New Brunswick area the decrease was 540,400 pounds, but it increased in Prince Edward Island by 689,400 pounds and in Nova Scotia by 341,700 pounds.
From studies of the life history of lobsters it is evident that they grow little during the winter season. A fall season in area 7B, therefore, would result in catching almost all the legal-sized lobsters there, so there would be practically none left for next year. Consequently there would be a total failure in the catch next year. For these reasons it is considered that a fall season in area 7B cannot be granted.



AGRICULTURE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Andrew Ernest Robinson: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture. Owing to the devastation by army worms in Ontario at the present time, is the minister prepared to assist the provincial government in every way possible, if he is requested to do so, to combat the army worm?


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was good enough to phone me this morning with regard to this matter. I stated to him at the time that infestations of this kind are battled by the provincial authorities in all the provinces. However, I did obtain information which indicates that light scattered infestations have been reported from Kent, Oxford, Bruce, Lanark and Waterloo counties. Infestation is much lighter than last year, according to the report. Up to 75 per cent of the worms are reported to be infested with parasites which, of course, is the method followed to combat the army worm. The report is that no serious damage is expected. The further report is that the provincial authorities are organizing and advising on control measures. In other words, our information is that the whole matter is being properly handled by the provincial authorities.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE Dominion bureau of statistics-
443.	Census, $953,002.


Owen C. Trainor: Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege, I wish to call your attention to


yesterday's Hansard. The Minister of Trade and Commerce is reported in Hansard at page 6164 as having said the following:
No government statement has ever been made that warrants anything the hon. member has said. This is the kind of mischievous speech that is specialized in by the hon. member for Calgary South.
And again at page 6165:


Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):: The only negotiations along that line that I know of were conducted by the hon. member for Calgary South, who went to Washington in company with the United States vice-consul at Calgary, represented himself as a man of importance in this transaction, and had conversations with the state department and with the federal power commission. If my hon. friend would like information about that matter perhaps he can ask the hon. member for Calgary South.
The allegation of the minister that the hon. member for Calgary South represented himself as a man of importance, or rather misrepresented himself, I think, is unfair and unjustified. The hon. member for Calgary South is said to have represented himself as a man of importance, but if he is regarded as a man of importance it is other people who so regard him and I think justifiably so. I am at a loss to understand why the Minister of Trade and Commerce should make this gratuitous attack on the hon. member for Calgary South who did not happen to be here to reply.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Owen C. Trainor: The only reason I can think of-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Owen C. Trainor: -is that the minister is not able-


The Chairman:: Order. Although I have listened to the hon. member for some time, I do not yet understand just how his question of privilege arises. I was in the chair in committee last evening when the utterances to which he has referred took place. I assure the hon. member that if I had felt that there were any references to the hon. member for Calgary South in his absence which were not countenanced by our rules it would have been my duty to have risen immediately and made reference to the matter, and I most certainly would have done so. May I point out also to the hon. member for Winnipeg South that the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra had the floor at the time and his comments followed immediately those of the minister. The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra made no objection at the time to the utterances. Therefore I must consider that at this late date the incident is closed.


Owen C. Trainor: May I point out to Your Honour that the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra was looking after himself and he did not have time to do anything else. I suggest respectfully to Your Honour that no member of this house should refer to the habit of speech of another member in this house as mischievous. I think that that is going beyond the rules of the house.


William Alfred Robinson: Do I understand that the hon. member for Winnipeg South is requesting me to indicate that the word "mischievous" is unparliamentary?


Owen C. Trainor: I think in this particular connotation I would so suggest.


William Alfred Robinson: Item 483.


Mr. Drew:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. During the time I was called out of the chamber for a few minutes yesterday a statement was made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce with regard to the Polish wheat transaction of which I was informed when I returned to the chamber. It was impossible for me to make a statement until I had found out in Hansard actually what had been said. Since then I have not only seen it in Hansard but I have seen it reported in the press and therefore I believe that it is time to deal with the statement. Referring to the Polish wheat transaction the Minister of Trade and Commerce is reported on page 6144 of Hansard of yesterday as follows:
But after this airing of the situation in the House of Commons, and the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition, I would not be at all surprised if Poland said, "We will take the 50,000 tons, but you can keep the rest of it.'' I say that seriously. I hope that critical comments will not be repeated:-
If the Minister of Trade and Commerce had not been away for some time he would have learned something of the attitude of this parliament toward the responsibility of parliament as expressed within the past few days. I find another of his statements:
I hope we will hear no more about the Polish
transaction.
May I point out, Mr. Chairman, that the Polish transaction was raised in the form of a question because we were learning about the government policy through the press and not in this house. We still have before us the statement of the Prime Minister that the transaction was not completed and the statement of the Minister of Trade and Commerce that it was completed. If there is any uncertainty or confusion about this matter, the responsibility rests fully with the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In addition to that, Mr. Chairman, we have not reached
Supply-Trade and Commerce the point where the members on this side of the house are to deny themselves either the right or the responsibility of ascertaining the facts with regard to government policy in connection with matters of this kind. So far as this transaction was concerned, we sought information to which we were entitled. In fact, we sought information which should have been placed before this house without any question. The suggestion that there has been any interference with the Polish transaction or any other transaction by our efforts to obtain, by a good deal of questioning, the simple details of this transaction, is nonsense.


Mr. Lesage:: Slanted questions.


George Alexander Drew: What is that?


Jean Lesage: There was a slant in the questions.


George Alexander Drew: Oh, Mr. Chairman, the only slant in the questions was a slant toward the responsibility of parliament.


Jean Lesage: Oh, oh.


George Alexander Drew: When the word "slanted" is used, may I point out that the answer of the Minister of Trade and Commerce was slanted in such a way that it misled this house and misled Mr. Speaker, as recorded in his ruling. Instead of talking critically of the efforts made to obtain the facts, the Minister of Trade and Commerce would have been well advised to apologize to the house for the statement which was made and which did misrepresent what the facts were. He did that in an effort to postpone until the estimates the discussion of something which apparently, according to his repeated statements, actually had been completed. It either was completed or it was not completed. The Prime Minister said it was not. The Minister of Trade and Commerce said it was. Then in dealing with the motion before the house Mr. Speaker, taking the statement of the Prime Minister, said that this had not been completed and that we might therefore be wasting time if we discussed the subject on that occasion. I mention this because it is an example of the-


William Alfred Robinson: Order. With all deference, may I interrupt the Leader of the Opposition at this point. He rose ostensibly to discuss a question of privilege, and, as I understand it, he has based his question of privilege on the following quotation from page 6144 of yesterday's Hansard of the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. These are the words:
But after this airing of the situation in the House of Commons, and the comments made by the Leader of the Opposition, I would not be at

Supply-Trade and Commerce all surprised if Poland said, ''We will take the 50,000 tons, but you can keep the rest of it." I say that seriously. I hope that critical comments wiil not be repeated; for the discussions we have on markets for our wheat simply invite our competitors to move into those markets and see if they cannot take the business from us.
As I understand it, the Leader of the Opposition is raising a question of privilege on those words. After hearing him at some length, it would be my opinion that this is not a true question of privilege but merely an extension of an argument which was concluded yesterday. Unless the Leader of the Opposition can indicate some question of true privilege, I do not think this matter should be pursued further.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, I point out that, in connection with my responsibilities in this house and outside it, I was called out for a few minutes and it was then that this statement was made. I am dealing now with a statement made here-and carried in the press-that as a result of the statements made here and inquiries made of the government to obtain information about this transaction, this Polish wheat deal had been interfered with. That statement by the Minister of Trade and Commerce is irresponsible nonsense. It is simply a repetition of his contempt for parliament. It had nothing whatever to do with the Polish wheat transaction.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. The Leader of the Opposition will realize that he is now making a statement which on many occasions previously has been found to be unparliamentary, namely that another hon. member of the house is in contempt of parliament. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition would wish to withdraw those words.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can close the debate by saying that I am quite satisfied to leave the Polish wheat transaction to the judgment of the farmers of western Canada who are the injured parties.


George Alexander Drew: Nonsense.


Clarence Decatur Howe: A good speech.


George Alexander Drew: Compact and effective.


William Alfred Robinson: May I now indicate to the committee that we are discussing resolution No. 443. Shall this resolution carry?


Mr. Thatcher:: Last night the minister gave an explanation as to why this expenditure is necessary. But despite his explanation I am still a little bit dubious about its wisdom. This particular item includes an amount of $490,000 for the taking of a quinquennial
[The Chairman.]
census. Such a sum is only the beginning, however, because when it is finished, the census will have cost at least $5 million. I may be wrong but, on the surface at least, it looks as though the figures which the minister will obtain from this new census, are simply going to be duplications of the figures which he could much more easily obtain from the dominion bureau of statistics.
It is quite true that last evening the minister said that such a course was not possible. But I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that in the past the D.B.S. have been amazingly accurate in their forecasts of population. Back in 1951, when the last census was taken, D.B.S., a few weeks before the taking of the census, forecast that the figure would be 13,984,000. When the final figures were obtained, the actual total was 14,009,249. In other words, D.B.S. had an error of less than one-tenth of 1 per cent.
I say therefore that this expenditure which will ultimately amount to upwards of $5 million or $6 million is a waste of the taxpayers' money. When it is finished, I do not think the minister will have much information that he could not have obtained from the dominion bureau of statistics. Why do we need this five-year census? Will the minister say that his department has not confidence in the forecasts of the dominion bureau of statistics? Will he say that he does not think he can accept their figures? I think this is an expenditure which should be eliminated and which parliament should not pass.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I point out that the department is required by law to take a quinquennial census of the three prairie provinces. We had requests from the other provinces that the quinquennial census be extended. We had numerous requests from businessmen who require the information for the purpose of their businesses. A consultation was had with those responsible for taking the census and it was found that, with very little additional cost over that which was usually incurred for the quinquennial census of the three prairie provinces, we could obtain the information for all of Canada. Short-cuts are being used which substantially reduce the cost. I am advised by my officers that the budget for the quinquennial census now suggested will be very little higher than the budget for the quinquennial census that we are obliged to take in any event.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: With all due respect may I suggest to the minister that he should discontinue the quinquennial census on the prairies also. I think that too, while perhaps not a waste of money, is certainly in the category of a luxury expenditure.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend will use his influence with his party to amend the British North America Act, we may be able to follow his suggestion. But the constitution requires a quinquennial census.


An hon. Member:: Which party?


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the resolution carry?


Mr. Monleiih:: Included in this figure of $490,000 is an item of $66,250 for professional and special services. I would ask the minister to outline what type of professional services will be required in this census.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The item is to provide for payments to census commissioners at $250 each for organizational work in their census districts, to be included as part of the total amount for services rendered in connection with the 1956 census.


Jay Waldo Monteith: That is $250 per district.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, per commissioner.


Mr. While (Middlesex East):: I agree with the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre. I rather think we are indulging in an expensive luxury that is not going to be of any great service. As far as population is concerned, the dominion bureau of statistics has figures and the municipalities also know pretty well what their populations are. I understand that some 75 questions are going to be asked farmers. Farmers seem to loom as a very important segment of the economy when it comes to asking questions at census time, but when 20 per cent of the population only receives 9 per cent of the national income it does not appear that they are very important when it comes to the distribution of wealth. I think this money could be well spent elsewhere. I think this is a waste of the taxpayers' money. In ten years from now we will be having a census every two and a half years. It is the silliest thing I have heard of in a long time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I say that the premiers of every province in Canada, I believe, have requested it. We had a particular request from Premier Frost for the reason that he wished to obtain accurate population figures with respect to the municipalities throughout Ontario. At the time of the 1951 census it was found that population figures for the municipalities throughout Ontario were badly distorted, and it is important to the provincial authorities who pay subsidies on the basis of population for education and other purposes. I might say that we were in some doubt whether we should meet the requests of the provinces and of businessmen to conduct 50433-391
Supply-Trade and Commerce this census. However, after the matter was debated we decided it should be done. I watched the newspapers carefully to get the public reaction to the announcement. I found a number of editorials commending the government on its decision to take a census, and I did not see a single one critical of the government for making the expenditure.


Harry Oliver White: It would seem to me that the provincial departments of municipal affairs in the provinces could quite reasonably be expected to provide that information. I do not see why the federal government should collect information for the provincial governments.


Mr. Barneil:: Can the minister tell the committee if this census can be used to determine whether the dominion bureau of statistics or the premier of British Columbia is right as to what constitutes the total public debt of the province of British Columbia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, this does not deal with debt figures. It only deals with population and certain farm and fisheries statistics.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Board of grain commissioners-
444.	Administration, $136,425.
George Hugh Castleden: I should like to ask the minister whether a final decision has been reached with regard to the definition of No. 1 feed screenings. I drew the minister's attention to this matter earlier in the session. Under the definition of the board of grain commissioners heretofore they have allowed a rather wide percentage of wild buckwheat in the samples. I understand some arrangements have been made with shippers whereby the shipment of anything less than 30 per cent of cracked grain in such feed screenings will not be permitted, and also that some time this fall the matter is going to be finally corrected in the board of grain commissioners' definition. What is the situation with regard to that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told that the board of grain commissioners have dealt with the matter. The terminal operators have been instructed that all No. 1 feed screenings shipped ex terminals will contain a minimum of 30 to 35 per cent broken grain, wild oats, etc., and further shipments of No. 1 feed screenings will therefore no longer contain the excessive quantities of wild buckwheat referred to by the hon. member. The board of grain commissioners propose to amend regulation 7 effective August 1 next to regularize the present arrangement.
6186	HOUSE OF
Supply-Trade and Commerce Mr. Charlton: I should like to ask a question along the same line. If cracked grain is supposed to include wild oats, etc., what is the et cetera going to be. Although it does not come under the minister's department, I want to point out something else. At the time of the committee sittings Mr. Milner read a letter from an official of the Department of Agriculture in which wild buckwheat was called grain. I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression it was a very bad weed seed and should never be referred to as grain.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This matter was debated in the agriculture committee. I think the records of the committee will indicate the nature of the discussion and the replies given by the officials. I never thought screenings were grain either, but apparently my hon. friend buys them as grain.


Mr. Charlton:: No, he does not.


Clarence Decatur Howe: However, I will be glad to draw his question to the attention of the board and if there is any information I can obtain I will convey it to him.


Mr. Nicholson:: Yesterday in reply to a question of the hon. member for Calgary North regarding grain quotas the minister said that he hoped all the wheat in the farmers' hands can be delivered before the next crop is moved. As I read those words they are not very helpful in case the next crop is not moved until a year from now. In view of the fact that those members who are wheat farmers are not likely to be home until the grain is harvested at the rate we are going, can the minister give some indication of what the plans are for the initial quota for the new crop which will be moving shortly? How many bushels can each farmer expect to deliver?


Clarence Decatur Howe: An announcement will be made in the next few days. I have had correspondence with the board about the proposed quotas for next year but I would not like to make an announcement now. I am not too sure that a final decision has been reached. However, the announcement will be out shortly. Of course, while I said that if the grain could not be delivered before the end of the month I expected there would be space for it before the next crop moves, it must be understood that any grain delivered on or after August 1 will be delivered against the new quotas.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Can the minister indicate whether all points that now have an eight-bushel quota are likely to have enough box 

cars available to enable the farmers to deliver up to eight bushels before the end of the present crop year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I am hopeful that will be the case. My hon. friend will understand that the wheat board puts out requisitions for wheat and the actual allocation of box cars is made by the grain companies themselves. It seems to me that it should be possible to see that the eight-bushel quota will be delivered at points that have the eight-bushel quota before the end of the crop year.


George Hugh Castleden: With regard to deliveries
of this final quota, the grain growers of the west will be very pleased to hear the minister's statement that they will be permitted to deliver all the grain they wish to by the end of the year, or at least by the time the 1955 crop is ready to move. I asked the minister a question the other day in the house, which he took as notice. What arrangements are being made to assure that farmers who are delivering that grain for the balance of this 1954 crop year will be permitted to deliver the grain to the elevator of their own choice? Reports I have from some areas is to the effect that box cars are still being allocated rather on the basis of the same number to each elevator at the various points. I am sure that the steps the minister has taken to work this out with the wheat board have met with the approval of everyone, and we hope the board will be able to handle it satisfactorily. We hope the congestion will be eliminated by this delivery.
Will it be possible from then on to allow the farmers to deliver grain to the elevator of their own choice?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I assure my
hon. friend that no compulsion will be used on any farmer to deliver grain to any particular elevator. We hope he will be able to deliver to the elevator of his choice.


George Hugh Castleden: It is not a matter of compulsion, it is a matter of space being available in the line companies so that is where he has to go to deliver his grain. I know steps are being taken to improve the situation. I hope that the farmers who are delivering grain for the balance of this year until September will be permitted to deliver that grain to the elevator of their choice. It seems to me that once the congested situation is relieved, the wheat board should be able to take deliveries and the right of the farmer to deliver his grain to the elevator of his choice should be established at this time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Board of grain commissioners-
445.	Operation and maintenance expenses, $3,594,148.
John Alpheus Charlton: I should like to ask the minister how many government grain elevators are rented to private grain companies or private individuals? What is the rental of those various elevators that are rented, and what is the amount of storage charges paid to the various companies over the crop years that the elevators were rented to them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The board of
grain commissioners only has one elevator rented. The national harbours board has certain elevators that are rented, but I have no information about harbours board elevators. If the hon. member would like information about the Port Arthur elevator, I can see what I have here.


John Alpheus Charlton: There is only one government owned elevator rented?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not say
that. I said there is only one elevator under the direction of the board of grain commissioners and operated by the Department of Trade and Commerce.


John Alpheus Charlton: How are the other government owned elevators operated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The national
harbours board, I think, operate all the others not operated by the board of grain commissioners.


George Hugh Castleden: When did the new assistant grain commissioner, appointed this year, start his duties with the board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: On the date in
the order in council; I think it was March 11.


Mr. Fleming:: I have a couple of questions with regard to the details on page 539 of the estimates concerning two items. About the fifteenth item down, we see "grain samplers"; the item under this heading last year is eliminated and now we have a new item, "grain samplers, seasonal". The appropriation for this year of $556,080 appears to correspond roughly with the total of last year's appropriation for 132 grain samplers and 69 grain samplers, seasonal. Then, if we drop our dyes down about another ten items, we have similar change. Where last year there were 44 grain trackmen, under the new appropriation for this year there are 66 grain trackmen, seasonal. The appropriation of about $180,000 corresponds roughly to last year's total for grain trackmen, of whom there were 44, and grain trackmen, seasonal, of whom last year there were 41. I presume the explanation will be the same for each of these items. Is it just a change of name, as the classification implies, or is there any change in the method 50433-391J
Supply-Trade and Commerce of handling being set up that is reflected in the change of name and in the designation of the item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I cannot say other than that the work of samplers and trackmen is largely seasonal. It may have something to do with contract arrangements with the employees' association, but I cannot say. It is simply a change in classification. Where some were regarded as not seasonal and others seasonal, now they are all seasonal.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes, but I am just wondering about the effect that may have on the status of some employees. It is quite apparent that the groups in these two classifications, some of whom were seasonal and some of whom were not regarded as seasonal, are all to be regarded as seasonal. I am wondering how this is going to affect the status of employees of the board who may have been employees for quite a long period? There might be something more to it than just a change of name.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say. We have not any expert here who can give us the answer. I will be glad to look into it, and if there is any injustice in regard to it I shall try to correct it. I am afraid I cannot give the information.


John Alpheus Charlton: I am not sure as yet as to
the answer the minister gave me about the government owned elevators. If I understood correctly, he said one of the government owned elevators not run by the harbours board is rented-just one elevator rented?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: That is erected and run by the board of grain commissioners?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: And the rest are run by the harbours board.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are two different sets of elevators. There are a series of terminal elevators built by the government back in 1913, 1914 and 1915. These were built for the account of the board of grain commissioners and were operated by the board of grain commissioners for a time. Later, one of the elevators, namely the elevator at Port Arthur, was leased to a grain company.
There are other elevators that are built by the harbours board throughout the country and are operated today by the national harbours board. They include elevators like Churchill, Port Colborne, and Prescott, and the elevators at Montreal and Halifax.

Supply

Trade and Commerce


John Alpheus Charlton: These elevators were built by the government, were they not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, but they are operated by the national harbours board which reports to the Department of Transport, and the poor Minister of Trade and Commerce cannot tell you much about them.


John Alpheus Charlton: That is true, and that is what I have just finished saying. They were built by the government and were operated by the national harbours board. But the minister said no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Alpheus Charlton: Well, his parliamentary assistant shook his head, which certainly means no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The word you used was "rented".


John Alpheus Charlton: No.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Your question originally was, "What elevators are rented by the government?" or "What government elevators are rented?" My answer is that, so far as this department is concerned, one is rented. I think there are also other elevators operated by the national harbours board, and I said I was under the impression that some of those were rented.


George Hugh Castleden: However, the minister's
department does undertake the inspection of those elevators?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: And the checking of them, irrespective of who operates them.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: One elevator is leased; which one is that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The elevator at Port Arthur.


George Hugh Castleden: That is the McCabe elevator company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the present state of the lease?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The lease was renewed at an increased rental about 18 months ago.


George Hugh Castleden: For how long?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For five years, with an option for another five years.


George Hugh Castleden: At what rental?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is $75,000 per year, plus a percentage of storage earnings.


George Hugh Castleden: What is the capacity of the elevator?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I designed it in 1913, and I believe it is 3,500,000 bushels.


George Hugh Castleden: I understand the construction is quite good.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian government elevators-
446.	Operation and maintenance expenses, $1,404,479.
Donald Methuen Fleming: I note at page 542, in the details, there is an item which stands in fifth position from the top of the page which indicates a reduction in the amount for casuals and others from $172,934 to $106,180. And then about ten items farther down there is an increase in the item for repairs and upkeep of buildings and works from $384,090 to $435,300. Would the minister explain, in one case the reduction, and in the other the increase.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think the estimate for casuals is based upon crop probabilities. The larger figure reflects the very heavy movement we had in 1953. Last year the movement was smaller and fewer casuals were required. Maintenance of course depends upon accruals of maintenance. That amount is an estimate of the amount of maintenance work expected to be done in that year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What was the actual expenditure in the last fiscal year for casuals and others? I note that the appropriation was $172,934.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That figure for casuals is in the salaries item, and I doubt if we could segregate it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: For purposes of easier comparison, I am wondering if we might have the exact amount because, while there is an apparent reduction of $66,000, we may well find that the department did not spend anything like the amount appropriated for the purpose last year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That may well be true. I think it probably is true. You see, the number of casuals required depends upon the nature of a crop movement. If it is a very heavy crop movement, more casuals are employed. We try to estimate a sum sufficient to take care of the actual casuals requirements. Sometimes we overestimate. If we underestimate we ask for more in our supplementary estimates.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister has had
representations presented to him in connection with the building of a terminal

elevator in northeastern Saskatchewan. It would appear that the operations of elevators have been quite profitable. The last annual report shows a surplus of $779 million. To make the maximum use of the facilities at Churchill it would seem logical that there should be a terminal elevator in northeastern Saskatchewan, where the grain might be stored, and then moved to Churchill as quickly as possible while the shipping season is open. Can the minister give us any information concerning the desirability of building terminal elevator facilities somewhere adjacent to Churchill?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of
moving grain from country elevators into storage, and out of storage into ocean terminals, is a charge against the producer that is unnecessary. It is much easier to hold the grain for Churchill in country elevators tributary thereto, and move it direct. It saves the producer about a cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian government elevators_
447.	Construction or acquisition o£ buildings, works, land and new equipment, $291,547.
Donald Methuen Fleming: What new construction is contemplated this year, and where? It looks like a routine item in connection with the current program. Where is the construction to take place this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This provides for the construction of new buildings at Calgary and Edmonton and for the completion of a dust control system at Prince Rupert which was commenced in 1954-55.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May we have the amounts in each case?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At Calgary it is a new building for improved staff accommodation and millwright shop; the amount is $70,000. Then at Calgary there is a further sum of $32,860 for sewer, water and gas mains. That makes a total of $102,860 for Calgary.
Then at Edmonton there is provision for a new millwright shop in the amount of $35,000.
At Prince Rupert there is the sum of $94,287 to complete the installation of a dust control system commenced in 1954-55; $9,400 for Garner alarms and interlocks; $25,000 for fixed spouting to replace open movable spouts and $25,000 to change open type electric lighting to the approved class II group G safety fixtures. The total for Prince Rupert is $153,687.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Trade and Commerce Special-
448.	International economic and technical cooperation branch, including the administration of the Colombo plan and of certain United Nations co-operation plans, $119,993.
Mr. Herridge:: This item of $119,993 is for the administration of economic and technical co-operation in connection with the Colombo plan, and certain United Nations cooperative activities. I understand this administration is carried out by the minister's department.
As a member of the committee on external affairs I had the opportunity, indeed the privilege, to hear of the aims and accomplishments of those responsible for economic and technical co-operation in the administration of the Colombo plan and other agencies mentioned. Mr. Cavell gave the committee exhaustive and complete details as to the activities of his branch, and Dr. Keenleyside referred to the technical co-operation. All members in the committee were impressed by the evidence given by these two gentlemen, when they outlined the way in which the plans are developed, and how they are examined in the various countries and referred back to Ottawa for further consideration and final approval by the cabinet.
There was evidence of very skilled administration as well as excellent planning and co-operation on the part of skilled administrators and others responsible in the minister's department. We were all impressed with the great care with which each plan that was suggested was considered so that the money would be spent to the best advantage to the people of the country that we were assisting. In addition to that, on all these activities, and I presume on all the activities of the minister's department, we have always had a sharp eye on the expenditures, which I think has been a very good thing indeed, and of value to the Canadian people.
I simply rise, Mr. Chairman, to say that members of this group are very much impressed with the administration of these plans and with the great work that is being done to assist in those underdeveloped countries. We think the administration is excellent. I might say in that connection, in addition to having the opportunity to listen to a detailed explanation of the aims and accomplishments of these branches, I have had the opportunity to hear from persons outside Canada and, as a Canadian, I am always delighted to know that Canadian administrators rate very highly with persons who have the ability to judge in other countries.
Our only complaint with respect to these plans, Mr. Chairman, is that we think Canada

Supply-Trade and Commerce could do more. The results, so far as the relatively small amounts that have been expended on them are concerned, have been wonderful and indicate to us the great opportunities to increase this investment in good will and in development in underdeveloped countries by increasing our contribution. I understand we are giving an extra million dollars to the Colombo plan this year. We are paying about the same amount to the economic and technical cooperation division. We in this group have only this one suggestion to make. Such a rich country as Canada could well afford to increase its contribution to these worthwhile plans and thereby invest in the peace of the future.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should like to say a word of appreciation for what has been said about our Colombo plan administration. We are particularly fortunate in having it headed by Mr. Nik Cavell, who has lived for many years in Colombo plan countries. He speaks the languages of the populations and has an appreciation of what can be expected in the way of local co-operation. He has attempted big useful projects, but projects within the capabilities of the areas in which they are being built with such help as Canada could give. In that way I think he has succeeded in bringing to completion some very useful projects. We are happy about the projects under way. I think Canada is improving her relations with Colombo plan countries through the efforts that we are making to improve the living conditions in those countries.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, of course on this item we are not dealing with the appropriation for the Colombo plan. We are dealing only with the appropriation on the administrative side, purely and simply. The major item, of course, comes under the Department of External Affairs. However, the evidence given before the committee on external affairs by Captain Cavell has a bearing on at least one aspect of the item under discussion here. In that regard may I say, in line with what the minister has said, we all recognize in this house that Canada is very fortunate to have this work headed by a man of the long experience and very great capability of Captain Nik Cavell, a very eminent Canadian.
When Captain Cavell was before the committee I asked him about the sufficiency of his technical staff to meet the demands upon it in trying to see that the appropriation that the Canadian parliament has put at the disposal of the Colombo plan is expended to the best advantage in providing capital goods and construction to enable the recipients of
[Mr. Herrldge.l
aid under the Colombo plan to help themselves to feed their own people. He indicated that he was a bit short of assistance on the technical side. I see on page 543 of the blue book of estimates there is a provision for two administrative officers, grade IV, where there was none last year. Further down the page there is provision for two technical officers, grade III, where there was none last year. I do not know whether these items are guaranteed to fill completely the lack that Captain Cavell pointed to in his evidence in this respect, but I do hope they are intended for that purpose and will have that effect, but if they are not I would suggest that consideration be given to that subject, because in administering a plan calling for the expenditure of $26 million this year it is obvious that much of the success of the plan and much of our hope of deriving the utmost assistance from the expenditure that is being made by Canada on behalf of the recipients depend upon the work of wise technical officers. I make that comment in the hope that there will be no lack of technical personnel required to ensure the most efficient and helpful administration of these plans so far as Canada is concerned.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that is the purpose of the department. He has noted that there are additional provisions being made for technical assistance. The department will endeavour to see that Captain Cavell is supported by the proper technical staff.


Mr. Montgomery:: I have a question on the statutory item. I notice that the indemnity to Mrs. Helen M. Boyer, the widow of Major Boyer, who was killed in Egypt, is discontinued. Can the minister explain why it is discontinued?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The reason it is discontinued is that the government of Egypt made a settlement in cash in compensation for the death, which no longer made the direct government grant necessary.


Gage Workman Montgomery: Will the minister say how much the settlement is?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think I should say that. That is private. Mrs. Boyer might object.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I think the minister might be on good ground there in not wishing to disclose the amount of the settlement. However, before the house abandons this annuity it should be assured that the settlement made by Egypt will yield to Mrs. Boyer a sum not

less than the annuity which had been voted to her in previous years and which is about to be discontinued.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that the settlement made by the government of Egypt yields considerably more than the amount of this grant.


Mr, Regier:: I was amazed to hear that the federal government does arrange such settlements in lieu of an annuity. Was this settlement initiated by the lady or was it a proposal suggested to her by the government or by any of its officers? We are beginning to tread on awfully dangerous ground when we begin to make cash settlements in lieu of an annuity.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Boyer was a trade commissioner on the staff of the Department of Trade and Commerce, resident in Egypt. He was shot in a riot in Egypt, and following the usual practice, where damage of that kind occurs to an official stationed in a foreign country, a claim was made on the Egyptian government for compensation. I must say that the Egyptian government indicated no reluctance in making the proper settlement. Of course, the settlement was turned over to Mrs. Boyer. In the meantime we had arranged the grant in addition to the pension of the trade commissioner, since the pension for the widow did not appear to be sufficient. I see now that the statement has been made by the Egyptian government.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Last September I stood on the spot in Cairo where Mr. Boyer met his untimely death. I wish to say that if the government had not used every effort to seek some indemnity for Mrs. Boyer it would have been failing in its duty. There were good reasons why the Egyptian government should pay this indemnity because as a government it had failed to enforce order in the city of Cairo and in consequence riots had occurred and had got out of hand which resulted in the murder of Mr. Boyer and others at that time.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: This is an administrative item in respect to the Colombo plan whereas the capital grant appears in the estimates of the Department of External Affairs. Would the minister explain the reason for this procedure and why the capital grant is not included here?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The allocation of Colombo plan funds is the responsibility of the Department of External Affairs as they have to do with world politics and peace between nations. We were called upon to arrange the operative staff which we were
Supply-Trade and Commerce glad to do, but we regard the Colombo plan as the responsibility of the Department of External Affairs.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: Do I understand that the administrative staff of the minister's department is under the general direction of the Department of External Affairs in the administration of the plan?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; we perform
the service as the Department of Trade and Commerce. The Department of External Affairs have commissioners in the areas as their representatives for Colombo plan matters and they deal with governments on matters of policy. The administrative work is wholly under the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: The actual projects?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


George Hugh Castleden: I should like to join those who have been commending the government upon their administration of this work. I think this is one of the most vital works that are being carried out by the free nations at the present time. The work of Mr. Cavell and his group has been excellent. Those who have studied the situation realize that there is a limit to how fast you can go in many underdeveloped countries, that is, without being misunderstood. In view of the worldwide picture, I wonder if the departmental officials feel that they could do more if more money were available. I imagine that they have already gained a great deal of knowledge and valuable experience as to how far they can go.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is difficult to get the efficient expenditure of large sums of money in that country and we have chosen smaller projects-in fact some of them actually run up to $10 million-which can be brought to a fairly early and successful conclusion within the resources of the area. We are reluctant to recommend any substantial increase in the Colombo plan vote, but if a special project came to hand that seemed particularly suitable we would not hesitate to recommend that parliament be asked to provide the necessary funds.


George Hugh Castleden: I agree with what the minister has said in regard to the particular area to which he is referring, which I assume is Pakistan and Ceylon and that part of the world. Has any consideration been given by the department with regard to underdeveloped areas in Africa or the Far East?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Trade and Commerce Loans, investments and advances-
544. To authorize, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, a special operating account in the consolidated revenue fund to which shall be charged expenditures incurred in respect of the Canadian international trade fair and to which shall be credited all monies received in connection with the operations of the fair, the excess of the amounts charged over the amounts credited to the account at any time not to exceed, $200,000.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Would the minister enlarge on this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a revolving fund used for the trade fair.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will you be needing it now?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The fair has not been wound up completely, but when it is the fund will be discharged. As soon as we can wind up the accounts of the fair, this will be returned to treasury.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I understand that this is either a new revolving fund or a further addition of $200,000 to the existing revolving fund for the purpose of providing what is required in the way of working capital for the Canadian international trade fair. Last night when we were dealing with item 437 we were asked to vote $275,000 for the Canadian international trade fair, although the minister estimated that probably not more than $100,000 would be required to complete the accounts of the fair and wind it up. Since it was indicated last night that there would be $175,000 in item 437 which might not be required in view of the termination of the fair I should like to know why we are being asked now to vote $200,000 under item 544 for working capital for the fair?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think that I am safe in saying that this item could be dropped. These estimates were printed before the decision not to hold the next fair was made. This is a provision for a loan repayable from the earnings of the next fair and obviously with no next fair to be held it will not be needed. None of my colleagues is in the house at the moment and perhaps the hon. member could move that this be reduced to $1 or stricken out.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have great pleasure in doing that.


The Deputy Chairman:: I would suggest that that is just a negative motion and that with unanimous consent the item be withdrawn. I do not like to establish a precedent by accepting as a motion what is simply a negative. Is it the unanimous opinion of the committee that item 544 be withdrawn?
(For further reference to this item, see page 6225.)


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Item withdrawn.
744. To provide, notwithstanding anything in the Prairie Grain Producers' Interim Financing Act, 1951 (hereinafter called "the act"), that if the amount recovered by or on behalf of Her Majesty from a borrower under the act is not less than the amount which the Minister of Finance has paid to a bank under section 3 of the act, no further amount shall be recovered from the borrower by or on behalf of Her Majesty, $1.


Donald Methuen Fleming: This is one of those $1 items that always attract attention, and I wonder if we could have an explanation from the minister of what is contained in this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This refers to the legislation of 1951 covering loans made to farmers on the prairies whose wheat was covered by an early snow. This allows us to discharge the interest upon those loans after they are in default. There are few loans outstanding. They are not a large amount.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It is just to keep alive the completion or winding up of the business then undertaken in 1951?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; that is it. It does not involve more than $2,000. It could not be more than that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: Atomic energy
control board, resolution No. 51. Hon. members will find it-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the minister would be agreeable to calling the research council item ahead of the atomic energy control board item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is quite agreeable to me, Mr. Chairman.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Thank you.
National research council-
284. Salaries and other expenses, $14,668,891.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: The item is to be found at page 48 of the main estimates, the details starting at page 380.


Mr. Murphy (Lambion West):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few observations on this item. I take the opportunity that presents itself to do this having regard to what has taken place with respect to our efforts in this house to establish a committee on research with the idea of accelerating research in Canada. I do not intend to make a prolonged speech on this particular subject. As you know, I am on record on two or three occasions over the last several years as speaking at some length with the expressed

hope that-for instance, last session-a committee would be set up, as I just indicated a moment ago, with the idea of accelerating research in Canada. We on this side of the house appreciate every effort that has been made, not only by this government but by all governments and bodies and by the co-operation of individuals and organizations, to accelerate research in Canada. I should like to say that I think it is the considered opinion of many authorities that we in this country have lagged behind other countries with respect to the per capita amount spent on research, no doubt partly because many industries in Canada have their parent organizations either in Great Britain or in the United States where extensive research programs have been undertaken.
I am going to say here-and the minister is more fully acquainted with this than I am-that where research has been pursued diligently, much has been accomplished. I think one of the best illustrations of that in Canada would be our own Polymer Corporation. I think the minister will agree with me that it was research plus rather aggressive administrative ability that has put Polymer where it is today. I was glad to hear him say yesterday that many European countries are buying rubber from our own Canadian plant which is in Sarnia.
I do not intend to go on and quote figures in large quantities, so to speak. However, I may say that Polymer has spent a great deal of money on research. If hon. members want to find out anything in connection with the research at Polymer, all they would need to do is to look at the Pblymer annual statements. There they will see references-made by, I think it was, the president of Polymer- to the effect that research had on the success of that particular company.
Mr. Chairman, as I said a while ago, a year ago I had a resolution on the order paper with the hope or the purpose of setting up a committee. The main idea back of it was to accelerate research in Canada because I have felt for a number of years that we in this country should pay more attention to the necessity for research and the results that research can accomplish. After all is said and done, we are a trading nation. In order to compete in foreign countries against other competitors we must have a product that is saleable at a price that meets other competition. We must also have a certain concern about the competition that we are obliged to face in our own country. I think it is through research in many instances that industry in this country is able to meet foreign competition. I think that, with accelerated research in Canada, industries that today 50433-392
Supply-Trade and Commerce are in some difficulty may find the path considerably easier in the days to come.
Another thing I think we must take into consideration is the matter of the economic condition not only of Canada but of other nations, over say the last two or three years, as compared with ours; their employment as compared with ours; their unemployment picture as compared with ours; and what caused unemployment. I do not intend to go into this matter at any length. I merely wish to say that, for instance, in Britain there was little unemployment last year but we had some 600,000 unemployed. For many years in Britain there has been recognition of the necessity for accelerated research. The United States, as a matter of fact, have come out of the recession. Their unemployment was not to an extent comparable with ours. I wish to place on record briefly figures to show that they have spent on research a great deal more per capita than we have spent in this country.
Last year my motion was not called for debate owing to the expiry of the time. That is one reason in any event. I placed that motion on the order paper again this session and the minister-I think it was on February 3-assured the house that the committee would be set up to study research generally. For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I withdrew my motion in order to avoid duplication of debate in this house. I probably made a mistake in having that motion withdrawn, but I accepted the assurance of the minister that the committee would be set up.
I had hoped that this committee would hear evidence apart from those who are in government employ. It was my hope that we would have witnesses from a broad Canadian field including representatives from the Chemical Institute of Canada, the Engineering Institute of Canada, the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Manufacturers Association, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture and other experts or economists who work in the field of agriculture; representatives from the provincial research councils or foundations where they have such organizations, and where they have not such a body in any particular province they could have a representative who could speak for that particular province and could interpret that province's attitude toward research. I figured that we would call the presidents of the Canadian universities and ask them to bring their research authorities and that we would also have labour represented. I am sure that we could have some

Supply-Trade and Commerce interesting evidence from their witnesses. I had in mind calling Dr. G. Edward Hall, president of the University of Western Ontario; Mr. R. K. Stratford, scientific adviser to the Imperial Oil company of Canada Limited and formerly president of the Ontario research council. Another person I would call, whose name is well known to Canadians, is Sir Robert Watson-Watt. Then there are Dean J. Miles Gibson of the faculty of forestry, University of New Brunswick, Father Mailloux, director of the research centre on human relations at Laval University, Dr. J. E. Robbins, secretary of the social sciences research council. Another man who is certainly well known in Canada as well as in many other countries is Colonel W. Eric Phillips, president of Duplate Canada Limited and many other corporations. Then there is President Sidney Smith of the University of Toronto and Dr. Cyril James, vice-chancellor and principal of McGill University.
These people and many others foremost in their fields of endeavour could give evidence that would be invaluable to the committee. I was hoping that it would be a continuing committee. However, the committee was not set up, but I hope, and I am sure many other hon. members on both sides of the house share the hope, that at the beginning of next session the committee will be set up and that the terms of reference will be wide enough to include calling witnesses such as I have suggested. When the Minister of Finance made his budget speech this session we heard the interesting announcement that a royal commission would be set up to study the economy of the country. I am quite sure that many of the people I have mentioned would be in a position to give valuable information and evidence to that commission. As a matter of fact, if the committee had been set up a year ago a great deal of information could have been obtained that would have been of very considerable value to the commission.
Realizing that we have such unlimited raw resources and also realizing that we recently had over 600,000 people unemployed, I think it is evident that the matter requires study, and I believe everyone will agree that for the dollars spent on research we get many more dollars in return. I say without any hesitation that I think accelerated research in Canada is more necessary now than ever if we are to retain our competitive position. Research, and its place in the economic development of our country, is more important today than ever. We not only must spend more on research but we must get more for our research dollar.


I should like to mention for a moment the position that Germany apparently has attained. I think most people will agree with me that Germany has attained her position today through concentrated endeavours to bring herself up to a level comparable with the position she held some years ago before the two world wars and before Germany became so war-conscious. There is no question in anybody's mind that there is a resurgence in Germany that is going to have an effect on Canada. I understand that Germany has just recently taken over from Canada third place in world trade. Because of the two world wars there was a lapse in various fields of research in Germany, but most certainly they are putting forth a tremendous effort today to rebuild and have certainly geared themselves to a level of production which is going to make their competition felt in every market of the world. Another interesting point is that just within the last year or so France, one of the leading nations in world trade, in an effort to enhance her position in this regard has established a ministry of research as an important part of her government.
I think we must also concern ourselves with the ideas and statements expressed by some of our leading industrialists. I have here, for instance, an observation made by Mr. R. C. Berkinshaw, a leading Canadian industrialist. He pointed out that with the resurgence of Germany and Japan in world trade and the steadily improving economic conditions in the United Kingdom and elsewhere our position in world trade is rapidly deteriorating, which is most unfortunate. He said:
We face today a series of very serious problems, which must be solved if progress is to continue.
In our country we want full employment and not unemployment relief. Then there is another observation I should like to make at this time. I think it is about a year ago that a spokesman for General Electric made the statement on their radio or television hour that since the war General Electric has spent over $800 million to improve its research and manufacturing facilities alone. It is research in General Electric that makes more jobs, provides better products at lower costs, and often new products from which the public can choose. I think the same thing would apply to any industry, and in my opinion industry as well as government must realize today that there are problems we have to face.
Rather than give any serious consideration to high tariffs as a method whereby to meet the competition of foreign goods coming into the country, while I do not doubt for a moment that it may be necessary to have a

review of our tariff structure, at the same time I say that if research in this country were accelerated to the same pace that we find in other countries we would be placed in a much healthier position to meet all competition. I should also like to refer to a man for whom I have a great deal of respect, a man who is certainly well known to the minister, his own Dr. Firestone. In a speech he made some time ago he made a statement that I think will be appropriate for a long time to come. He said:
The alternative to the outmoded method of applying prohibitive tariffs is to improve our techniques of production so that our costs will allow us to compete and expand our foreign trade.
As a matter of fact, when the minister was discussing the position of some of our own industries yesterday I believe he indicated that there was some responsibility on those industries to have regard to the demands which they could fill and that in order to meet competition they might have to do away with some of the gadgets they might like to have on their products. An important part of Dr. Firestone's statement, and I think most people in Canada share this view, is that he warned that one of the great lessons of the last half century is that Canadians must meet four conditions to hold their position as one of the leaders in world trade. He said that they must (1) remain competitive; (2) keep our economy flexible; (3) take bold and imaginative action to develop our resources; and (4) be prepared at times to wait for their efforts to bear fruit.
It is significant that Dr. Firestone, an economic adviser, places "remain competitive" first in order of importance, because if we are to remain competitive we must be in a position to produce at a price that will compete with other countries which are also struggling for export markets.
I think another authority for whom we have considerable respect in this country is Dr. J. W. T. Spinks. I wish to quote a few lines from his statement to the Massey commission. He said:
It is necessary to look ahead to the time when we shall be compelled to do more of our own research to keep up with developments in the industrial field. The importation of scientific ideas is bad for the intellectual development of a country, particularly when coupled with the export of scientific brains. In time of war it leaves the country in an extremely vulnerable position. In time of peace it weakens its competitive position with other nations. Today research has a profound influence on our national welfare and security.
Another idea which I should like to project at this moment, Mr. Chairman, is connected with the export of some of our best brains to the United States and other countries where they do find opportunities to pursue 50433-392i
Supply-Trade and Commerce their particular studies. There is not an hon. member in this house who likes to see our Canadian university graduates seeking employment outside of this country. I think that is a matter which must be very seriously considered and combated. In this country we do not have the field for intensive research studies after university degrees are given that are afforded to students in other countries. Canada is also the landing field for many people seeking entry to the United States for greater opportunity. In many cases, we import the raw material and export the finished product. We are exporting Canadian talent, Canadian brains, Canadian enterprise to the United States because we do not provide the opportunities for scientific development in this country.
In Britain, Mr. Chairman, they have a scientific committee set up which has been doing a tremendous job. I have gone on record previously with respect to that particular committee. The United Kingdom has been recognized over the years for its ability to trade in world markets, and there the importance of research is not only recognized but encouraged by the government. In Britain they have a continuing parliamentary scientific and industrial research committee, which works in co-operation with scientists in industry, agriculture and labour. The remarkable recovery, and progress in technological development made since the war by Britain's bombed-out industries, is largely due to her full utilization of scientific research.
I am not going to pursue that idea further, except to say it is already on record. I do hope that if this committee is set up it will inquire into research generally in Canada. We could have evidence which might lead the committee to bring in recommendations acceptable to the government. I might mention just now, Mr. Chairman, that well known person who has been in the news even recently, Sir Robert Watson-Watt. When speaking in Ottawa some time ago, he said;
Canada needs such a council on which complacency has no seat, in which mutual confidence grows out of mutual understanding.
Scientific and industrial research, agricultural research, research on natural resources, would all be co-ordinated in this one advisory council, which is not the case in Canada today.
I might mention the important part that research has played in the pulp and paper industry before I close. I refer to it because it has an annual wage bill in this country of over $300 million, and its exports are around the billion dollar mark. It has a staff and a volume of expenditure for research in Canada second in size only to the national

Supply-Trade and Commerce research council. I refer to this industry because, (1) research has produced and is producing today the means to make this expendable resource last longer; (2) produce more wood; (3) increase the national wealth produced by each cord of wood by improving the end product; (4) extending utilization of by-products to the point where it is now conceivable that these may shortly rival pulp and paper in volume.
I might mention too, Mr. Chairman, that in the United States I think the by-products industries there absorb some billion and a half dollars of surplus agricultural products which until a few years ago were almost impossible to dispose of, let alone sell. I could deal at length with the salaries that are paid by universities for research work, but I will not elaborate upon that.
I think I should like to close with several recommendations, some of which have been suggested by Dr. Stratford, who would have given important evidence if the committee had been established with the terms of reference I have indicated. New discoveries are certainly not prosecuted in this country as effectively as in the United States, Germany, and England. Canada needs the advisory committee patterned after the British system, and it could assume several responsibilities, including the following:
1.	It could investigate ways and means
whereby university and government scientists can receive adequate remuneration for their work, in order that the country can retain its share of first-class scientists in key positions.	.
2.	It could see that new scientific discoveries, whether they originate in this country or elsewhere, are put into practice as quickly as possible for the benefit of the country.
3.	It could see that there is a proper balance maintained between the research efforts carried on by universities, government departments and industrial research groups.
4.	It could expand and improve the coordination between the various departments of the federal government, between the federal and provincial governments, universities and industrial research groups.
5.	It could clarify the situation as to the type of research that could beet be carried on by the federal and provincial governments.
6.	All branch industries from foreign countries that are well established in Canada should be encouraged to establish research units within the country.
7.	It could sponsor discussions between universities on the one hand, who train the scientists, and industrial and governmental

representatives who subsequently employ them. This would ensure the least possible wastage of our limited talent.
8.	By careful planning, to reduce to a minimum any semblance of regimentation, and yet at the same time to make sure that scientists have an opportunity of periodically reviewing the progress of the work before their peers, in order that they may obtain the proper recognition for their work.
I do not intend to pursue this argument further. In conclusion, I do hope the government will undertake next year to set up the committee with the terms of reference I have suggested because I feel it is recognized now by all Canadians how important research is to the economic life of our country.


Mr. Hees:: May I call it one o'clock?
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.


William Alfred Robinson: We were considering item 284, for the national research council. Shall the resolution carry?


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, nearly two years ago the hon. member for Lambton West proposed a private member's resolution recommending the setting up of a committee of parliament to investigate how best the government could assist industry by expanding industrial research in this country. That resolution was widely applauded by leaders in industry, labour, education, and in the press across the country. Almost every newspaper, irrespective of party, applauded this very worth-while suggestion and urged the government to go ahead. It just happened that before the resolution was due to be debated in the house the government ended the time given over to private members bills, and that resolution did not come forward a year ago for discussion.
With that in mind the hon. member for Lambton West proposed his resolution again this year. On the assurance from the minister that the government intended to proceed with this idea, the hon. member, as he said before lunch, withdrew his resolution. On March 29 the minister placed on the order paper a government notice of motion indicating that the government intended to set up a committee to investigate in what way the government could best further the expansion of non-military research in this country.
That, Mr. Chairman, was four months ago. And to the great surprise of members of parliament and of the country generally the

resolution was never brought forward for discussion in the house. Naturally, the country and parliament are asking why. I believe the answer is that it was because the hon. member for Lambton West indicated that he intended introducing an amendment to the motion which would give the committee power to call before it private individuals who, from their wide experience in this field, would be able to make suggestions as to how the committee could best proceed. And there is no doubt that the appearance of those particular individuals would greatly have helped the committee in its work.
The minister, it seems, just could not tolerate an opposition amendment to his motion; and so far as we can understand, that is the reason why this resolution is not before us.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I ask the
hon. member a question. Did the opposition ever intimate to anyone that they intended to attach an amendment to the motion? I never heard of it until now. Was it said in the house, or is it some private secret that is just now leaking out?


George Harris Hees: My information is that it was not a secret at all. The hon. member for Lambton West let it be known, as these things become known-and there was no opportunity to let it be known in the House of Commons-that he intended introducing this amendment. And that is the only reason we can find for the minister not bringing in this motion for debate.


Mr. Harris:: Where is the record of that statement?


George Harris Hees: If there is some other reason I would like to hear the minister give an explanation why a motion introduced four months ago, and which has been pressed for, for two years, by industry, labour, education, the press of the country, business generally, and members of parliament-by everybody who wanted this committee set up-has not been proceeded with. I would appreciate hearing from the minister why, over a period of four months, he has consistently refused to introduce the motion and have the committee set up, if the reason I have given is not the proper one.


Walter Edward Harris: I know the Minister of Trade and Commerce will give the hon. member the reasons in a moment. But I should point out that I did put on the record of Hansard the reason, on the request from the opposition, that this motion should not proceed. The hon. member will find it on Hansard. I, personally, have never known any reference in the house to a proposed amendment
Supply-Trade and Commerce such as the hon. member now describes; and I do not know how it could be considered a reason for not calling the motion.


George Harris Hees: I did not say there was any reference in the house. I said that this had been indicated, as things are indicated in parliamentary circles. We have been searching for a reason as to why this motion to set up a committee has been on the order paper for four months, and never brought forward for debate, and why it should have been that this idea of a committee is to die once again.


Walter Edward Harris: Read Hansard.


George Harris Hees: And there is no indication that the committee will be set up at the next session of parliament. It seems that the minister intends to let it go on, and on, and on. I think everybody else is anxious to have the committee set up, but he is unwilling to give the instructions necessary to have this motion put forward for debate.


Clarence Decatur Howe: On a question of privilege:	At the request of and after consultation with a representative of the Conservative party who asked me to prepare a resolution, I agreed to the terms of it, and it was put on the order paper. I had prepared a speech to introduce it. But I went to Australia and was gone for more than five weeks. I left instructions with the senior member for Halifax to take charge of the motion when it was called. It could have been called at any time. Certainly I had no objection to it. I had arranged for the chairman and the personnel of the committee.
I have never known the member of the opposition who deals with these matters to be reluctant to ask for a motion to be brought forward when he wanted it proceeded with and I am sure he never asked that the motion be called. I did hear an explanation that hon. members opposite could not agree as to the terms of the resolution-although it had been agreed upon, on behalf of the opposition, in the terms found on the order paper.


George Harris Hees: There has never been any doubt in the minds of members of the official opposition that we wanted this motion brought forward, and the committee set up. We have wanted this committee, and we have said so openly, and have been urging it for two years. And we are also very surprised that it has not been set up. I do not think the minister has given any explanation at all as to why, day after day, week after week, month after month, he has sat in the house and when the motion has been called, has simply said stand, stand, stand, stand. He

Supply-Trade and Commerce has given no explanation as to why it was not brought forward three or four months ago. He has said that he was willing to have it brought forward. Then, why was it not brought forward? Other motions have been. This is the only one I know of that has not been brought forward. There was a lot of time available, and no adequate explanation has been given.
To my mind the explanation the minister has tried to give is quite unsatisfactory.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot let it go at that. The hon. member knows as well as I do that individual ministers arrange to have motions put on the order paper; then the motion is called for discussion in the house when the house leader considers the time is appropriate. It passes out of the hands of the minister in charge when it goes on the order paper.
I never press to have any motion of mine brought forward until the house leader says that the time is right. That is the situation in this instance. Perhaps if the hon. member had discussed the matter with the house leader some light could be thrown on the situation.


Mr. Green:: I think there is some misunderstanding in this matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I don't think there is misunderstanding at all; but explain it.


Howard Charles Green: What is that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think there was any misunderstanding at all, except on the part of the hon. member for Broadview.


Howard Charles Green: As the minister knows, the arrangement was made early this session that there would be a committee on the question of atomic energy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: And the terms of the reference were agreed upon by yourself and myself.


Howard Charles Green: That is right; and the research council. Eventually it appeared that there was some misunderstanding with regard to the calling of witnesses. I may have been as much to blame for that as the minister or I may have been more to blame, but my understanding was it would be possible for the committee to call witnesses other than members of the national research council. There was some delay while the minister was of course away for about a month.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There was no delay on that account. I can assure the hon. member that my parliamentary assistant was quite willing to carry on.
[Mr. Hees.l


Howard Charles Green: We were trying to get the question worked out as to whether the committee would call witnesses from outside or not. Eventually the time drifted along until early in June, and then the minister decided that it was too late and he would not have the committee set up this year. It was about six weeks ago that that decision was reached. I do believe that something could have been done in either one or the other of the fields. There has never been any disagreement or misunderstanding about a committee to deal with atomic energy. A question arose as to whether it was the intention to call outside witnesses on research in the committee's work. I am prepared to take my share of the blame for the delay. It has been very unfortunate that there was not a committee. However, that is what happened. As I say, it did turn out that there was a misunderstanding about the calling of witnesses. That was the only ground on which there was a misunderstanding. Perhaps both sides were to blame in the matter of reaching a final decision as to what would be done in that respect.


George Harris Hees: 
Mr. Dickey:: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps I should say a word regarding what has been said by the hon. member for Lambton West and the hon. member for Broadview in connection with the committee on research and atomic energy. Apparently the hon. member for Broadview is under the impression that these suggestions emanated from the hon. member for Lambton West, that the idea was originated by that hon. member. Of course the obvious fact is that there has been no hesitation on the part of the government to set up committees to study these matters whenever it appeared proper that that be done.
The first committee was the atomic energy committee which was set up in 1949. This committee did most valuable and excellent work, which fact apparently has escaped the attention of the hon. member for Broadview. Then in 1950 there was the committee on the national research council, which in spite of

Supply-Trade and Commerce his interest in research apparently has missed the attention of the hon. member for Broadview, Then in 1953 a second committee on atomic energy dealt with research in that most important field.
In his opening remarks the hon. member for Broadview attempted to show that there has been reluctance on the part of the minister and the government to bring forward the motion to set up this committee because of some suggestion that an amendment would be moved. I would assure the hon. member for Broadview and the hon. member for Lambton West that that is the first suggestion I have heard of any such proposal. It was complete news to the minister and it was not a matter that had been placed before the house, as has been pointed out by the leader of the house. I must say that I did hear some rumours that there was disagreement among the opposition as to just what should be done and that that was the reason why the members who discussed with the house leader the question of the business of the house were not pressing to have this resolution dealt with.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. I know the senior member for Halifax would not want the record to be not factual and perhaps I might be permitted to state what I understood took place. When the senior member for Halifax was speaking about these other committees, that was all right because he [DOT]was not dealing with a committee on research generally. I may say that I had something to do with drawing up the terms of reference, but the ones I drew up granted the power to send for and examine papers and persons.
I discussed this with the member on the government side who I expected would be the chairman, as he had been the chairman of the other committees which the senior member for Halifax has just referred to, and at that time I indicated that we intended to call witnesses and during the Easter recess we could inform them if he would let me know that this would be arranged. I may say that I was asked to give the names of the witnesses I proposed calling, to the prospective chairman who represents an Ottawa riding, and he had the list of witnesses that I mentioned this morning when I spoke.
I would have thought that the senior member for Halifax, who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, would have been aware of what had taken place between his colleague, the hon. member for Ottawa West, and myself.


John Horace Dickey: No, I was not aware of that.
	I


William Alfred Robinson: Perhaps I am at fault in not rising earlier, but it seems to me that this discussion is purely procedural. It might be better if we discussed the item under consideration.


John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, I have no desire to prolong the discussion except that this was raised by the hon. member for Broadview in a way which I thought required some answer. As all hon. members know, the committee work during this session has been extraordinarily heavy. I know from personal knowledge gained from dealing with this matter that there was a period of four to five weeks when the names of members from the government side were ready but we were waiting for the names from the opposition side.


Howard Charles Green: That is not correct.


John Horace Dickey: It is to my knowledge that the day after the names were submitted by the opposition this resolution went on the order paper. The undertaking given to the house by the Minister of Trade and Commerce to which reference has been made was that this committee would be proposed, and the committee was proposed. To my knowledge we were prepared at all times to proceed with setting up the committee whenever the business of the house permitted.


William Alfred Robinson: I think I should insist a little more strenuously that, after all, this discussion is purely procedural and we should discuss the item before the committee.


John Horace Dickey: The hon. member for Lambton West did deal to some extent with research and the importance of research. I am sure that all hon. members of the committee will recognize from what has been said in the house on a number of occasions by the Minister of Trade and Commerce and others that this is a very important subject. The hon. member for Lambton West says it is important that Canadian research be accelerated. I can assure the committee and the hon. member that that has been going on in this country for a good many years.
The hon. member for Lambton West said that in the opinion of a good many authorities Canada lags behind in research. I am sure that those authorities are not referring to several important areas of research when they make a statement of that kind. I am sure that if they know the facts they are not referring to the field of government research. The level of government research in Canada compares favourably with that of any other country in the world. At the present time the federal government is spending about $70 million a year for

research, which is a per capita expenditure that compares favourably with governmental expenditures on non-military research by any country in the world.
In the field of university research satisfactory strides have been made with government assistance and by the universities themselves, which makes our position in that regard quite satisfactory. It is true that in the field of industrial research the Canadian position is not as favourable as the position in many of the more completely industrialized countries. There are a number of reasons for that fact. I am not going into the matter this afternoon in any detail. However, I think it should be recognized that certain Canadian industries which are well organized and where research is important have established excellent records in the field of research. I need only mention the pulp and paper industry in that regard. But there are many factors that affect the volume and the extent of industrial research in Canada. I am sure that the hon. member recognizes that fact.
I think he will also recognize that gradually Canadian industry is taking a much more active participation and interest in research to its own benefit and for its own advantage.
I can assure the hon. member that the national research council co-operates with this effort of Canadian industry to the utmost and I am sure that that co-operation will continue. This is a matter that has received and will continue to receive attention. I am sure that we shall all be pleased with the way research matters generally will develop in this country in the next few years.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, I want to clear up a couple of things the parliamentary assistant said with regard to my remarks. As far as I can see, he tried to create the impression that I had implied that this government has never done anything to further research. I did nothing of the kind.


Mr. Hosking:: You did nothing else.


George Harris Hees: Oh, pipe down. He implied that I did not recognize that in the field of atomic research, or in the national research council, this government has made considerable strides. I did not deal with those matters at all or imply in any way that the government had been lethargic in this regard. I was dealing with one particular phase of research, namely industrial research. As the parliamentary assistant has said, in his own words: We are not in as favourable a position as our competitors are. I know how desperately industry needs a greatly expanded industrial research program. I should like to see that industrial research program get ahead. I feel that a parliamentary committee could be
Supply-Trade and Commerce instrumental in helping that program get ahead. It was for that reason that I rose to speak about that matter this afternoon; it was not in order to criticize the government with regard to other fields of research but just to urge them to get ahead with this particular one so that our economy can benefit.


Mr. Low:: I could not hear the words of the parliamentary assistant to the minister very clearly down here largely, I think, because he was talking across the floor to those who preceded him in the debate. Am I correct in understanding him to say that the government is spending $70 million a year at the present time on non-military research? If that is the correct figure, would the hon. gentleman give us some idea of where those amounts are to be found in the estimates aside from those that are provided under the national research council at page 48 of the blue book?


John Horace Dickey: The over-all figure is correct; it is approximately $70 million. In addition to direct expenditures by the national research council, there are research expenditures of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, the research activities of the Department of National Health and Welfare, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Fisheries and the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Thomas Speakman Barnett: I have a question I should like to ask. It is somewhat related to that which was just asked by the hon. member for Peace River. I was wondering whether we could have some explanation as to what steps are taken to avoid any degree of overlapping effort on the part of the various research agencies of the federal government. In addition to those activities just mentioned by the parliamentary assistant there are those of the fisheries research council; and if my understanding is correct, some work is done under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I might just suggest one or two examples that occur to me in this connection. The minister may recall that last year the job of examining drill cores from the drilling that was done in connection with a survey with regard to the blasting of Ripple Rock was referred to the national research council. Under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys I notice that a number of geologists are listed as being employed. As one example, I was wondering why that job was referred to the national research council rather than to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys or whether there are being maintained by the national research council geologists who are in effect duplicating the
6202	HOUSE OF
Supply-Trade and Commerce work done under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. To take another example, when I attended the open house at the Montreal road establishment last year I noticed that a research project was under way in connection with the drying of wheat. What steps are taken to assure that this particular work is not being duplicated by the research facilities of the Department of Agriculture?
I mention those two examples in order to indicate the reason for asking this question and to express the hope that we may have some explanation of what co-ordination, if any, exists between the different research agencies.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think perhaps I can clear up that matter. The investigation of Ripple Rock was placed in the hands of a committee of which the president of the national research council was chairman and on which the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys and two or three other departments of government were represented. I think the Department of Public Works was one and I think the national harbours board was another. The money was voted in the national research council vote and the work was carried out in the name of the national research council. But as I say, the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys was represented on the committee and when the cores were sent to the national research council, they were undoubtedly delivered to the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.
As far as agriculture is concerned, or agricultural research, there is a definite division between the work of the national research council and the work of the Department of Agriculture. Certain laboratories are established and operated by the national research council and certain problems are assigned to those laboratories. One problem assigned to the laboratory at Saskatoon is an investigation of rust in wheat. But a committee representing all the departments concerned with research meets each year. Each department presents a budget to that committee and the committee sees that the plans of each department do not overlap on the work of another department. After the committee reach that agreement, the individual appropriations are submitted to treasury board as approved by this co-ordinating committee on research.


Solon Earl Low: Would the minister answer this question with reference to the notice of motion which has been on the order paper for quite some time proposing to set up a


committee to examine into the role of government in the field of non-military research in Canada, and so on? Does the minister have any objection to including in that notice of motion provision for calling witnesses before the committee when it is set up? At the same time would he state whether he feels that perhaps the committee could be set up early in the next session and carry on its work perhaps at a time when the other committees are not so busy?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is aware of the fact that the committees of the house are not set up until the debate on the speech from the throne is completed. Of course, including the provision for calling witnesses completely changes the character of the committee. The purposes of committees in the past have been to examine the work and progress in the department, to report on the quality of the work, and to make suggestions as to the scope of the work. Under what is proposed here we will take everyone who calls himself a scientist and some who do not and allow them to orate to the committee. I cannot imagine what conclusion the committee would reach. There would be no opportunity for government experts to assist the committee. There would not be time. I do not know how the government would view that. My hon. friend will understand that the setting up of a committee is not one minister's decision. It is a government decision. I certainly would not be too enthusiastic about a committee of that kind. I think it would be unique in any country to have an investigation of that kind where any member is entitled to bring in any man he wishes. We had a list read by the hon. member for Lambton West of those he would summon. I suppose my hon. friend has a few people he would summon. Perhaps if I were on the committee I would have quite a list myself. I would be surprised if there was any hope of getting through with a program like that in one session, and just what all the opinions of even the people named by the hon. member for Lambton West would add up to from the point of view of affecting the work of the government I cannot possibly imagine.


Solon Earl Low: I suggested to the hon. member for Lambton West one well qualified witness who might be called.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I think I should be permitted to say in reply to the minister that I submitted a list of very prominent people and organizations that I thought would make a great contribution to the work of such a committee, and I resent the minister's suggestion that my list could be supplemented by the lists of other people

on that committee. May I remind him that it would not be my responsibility as a member of that committee to call anybody. That would be the responsibility of the committee which would be dominated by the party in power.


Mr. MacLean:: I should like to make some remarks on the question of scientific research in Canada because in common with many other people in Canada I think it is of fundamental importance. Perhaps to begin with it would be well to have a definition of what we mean by research, especially scientific research. It is not my intention to discuss to any extent the question of applied research and the field of applied science, but I feel there is a very great need for accelerated activity in the field of pure science. To begin with, I should like to quote a definition of what we mean by scientific research. I think that would be a good starting point. I turn to page 168 of the report of the royal commission on the arts, letters and sciences where the following appears:
We might return to the simple definition of many scientists that scientific research is the investigation of natural phenomena in the endeavour to determine laws and relationships which may or may not have a practical application. . . . The '*fundamental" research worker studies natural phenomena in the search for laws and relationships. He may or may not have in mind a possible application of his new knowledge. Some scientists refer to fundamental research as the "raw material" of science to be "processed" before it can be used. Others insist that the true scientist loves knowledge for its own sake and that in his absorption in the purely intellectual problem the thought of a practical application, for the moment, is unimportant.
It may be felt by many that parliamentarians can add little or nothing when the problem of research is being studied because it is argued that for the most part parliamentarians are laymen or, at best, very amateur scientists, and that this question should be left strictly to the experts. Naturally the detail of research and what fields should be followed are problems for the experts, but nevertheless I think parliament has a responsibility in this field. In the United Kingdom there is a permanent parliamentary committee on the subject of research, and with reference to that committee I should like to quote very briefly the comment of Dr. W. R. Woolrich, dean of the college of engineering of the University of Texas, on the significant rehabilitation of the British economy:
One of the principal instrumentalities in improving their industrial and scientific economic position is their parliamentary and scientific committee, which in itself is an unofficial partnership of members of the houses of lords and of commons on the one hand and members of the national
Supply-Trade and Commerce scientific and engineering institutions and of recognized research organizations and bodies on the other.
This noted American gives that committee considerable credit for the very excellent recovery Britain has made since world war II. Of course in the United Kingdom there is a great and long tradition of leadership in thought and science by parliamentarians. As a matter of fact many people in Britain whom we think of primarily as great thinkers and scientists have looked upon themselves as primarily parliamentarians. In that group there would be such men as Francis Bacon, Sir John Hawkins and Sir Isaac Newton. In their day they looked upon themselves as parliamentarians. Their scientific effort was a sideline with them. The most important of these men was, of course, Francis Bacon, for he started the trend of thought out of which our scientific research has developed. It was he perhaps more than any other individual who set western civilization on the road towards physical research. He had this to say about himself:
I found that I was fitted for nothing so well as for the study of truth;-
After all, that is what science is. It is just the search for the actual truths of nature.
-as having a mind nimble and versatile enough to catch the resemblances of things, which is the chief point, and at the same time steady enough to fix and distinguish their subtler differences: as being gifted by nature with desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and as being a man that neither affects what is new nor admits what is old, and that hates every kind of imposture. So I thought my nature had a kind of familiarity and relation with truth.
As a result of the philosophy of Francis Bacon, in the succeeding years the royal society was formed and out of it grew much of the scientific progress which took place in the United Kingdom at later times. In Bacon's own words, he "rang the bell which called the wits together." I feel that is perhaps what Canada needs at the present time as far as fundamental research is concerned. It needs some spark to gather the wits together.
I do not want to bore the committee with any review of research in Canada as it has been sponsored by this government and other governments except to say that the necessity for research on an organized national level was recognized during the first world war when the national research council was first set up. There is a very interesting debate which anyone can read that took place on that occasion. I think it was Sir George Foster and Sir Wilfrid Laurier who were the chief speakers at that time. They recognized that Germany had reached its pre-eminent
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Supply-Trade and Commerce position in the field of manufacturing and world trade, as well as in the arts of war, because of the scientific research that had been pressed forward in previous years.
Many people who take a cursory look at the situation imagine that wars are a great stimulus to research. They are, of course, in the field of applied science. But in that regard it should be remembered that pure science is neglected during wartime. It is well for us on this continent to remember that many of our great achievements in applied science were made possible by pure research in other parts of the world, especially in Europe. This applies to such things as atomic energy, and many other fields of endeavour. We have not a very proud record so far as applied science is concerned, and I have a feeling that there is a great tendency for the demands of applied science to detract from the interest in, and the funds available for, pure science.
In that connection, I should like to quote briefly from a book written by Mr. Eggleston, called "Scientists at War", in reference to Canada.


William Alfred Robinson: I wonder if the hon. member considers that this general type of speech is appropriate to an item of this kind. May I point out to the hon. member that we are dealing with resolution 234 which involves a vote for the salaries and other expenses in connection with the national research council of over $14 million. Standing order No. 58, subsection 2, says that speeches in committee of the whole must be strictly relevant to the item under consideration. I believe the hon. member will agree that I have not risen until he has had ample time to lay the groundwork for any remarks he has to make which are strictly relevant to this item. I would ask his co-operation in dealing with the item itself, rather than making general remarks which I feel most members of the committee believe could be more appropriately made on another occasion.


John Angus MacLean: I do not wish to transgress the rules of the committee, but I have made these remarks because I felt they were relevant to this problem. While I have no criticism whatever of the work being carried out by the national research council, I feel that it is applied usefully in one field, but there is another field for which some research organization of this government should be responsible that is being neglected. I know of no other place where I might discuss the subject. In any case, my remarks are going to be very brief.
I am endeavouring to point out that the very activities which are carried on by the 

money this vote provides make it very difficult for other institutions in Canada to compete for top grade scientists and for facilities in this field. In many cases our universities would like perhaps to extend their efforts so far as pure research is concerned, but their facilities are being used for applied science. Many of our university graduates are immediately absorbed into the fields of applied science, because of the cold war, and of course, in the past, because of world war II. I am merely making the suggestion that more attention should be given to the question of pure science.
There is a quotation here, if I may be excused for using it, that is very apt.


William Alfred Robinson: I wonder if the hon. member would assure me, before reading the quotation, that it has some bearing on this vote which, as I say, deals directly with salaries and other expenses of the national research council.


John Angus MacLean: Yes, I think it has. This is a quotation from Dr. Mackenzie, who was at one time the president of the national research council. He said:
War, in its technical aspects, is simply industry functioning at a feverish tempo. But much of this gain is at the expense of fundamental research. Universities are ruthlessly raided in wartime; their wisest teachers and most ingenious investigators are conscripted for applied research. Young scientists are shifted from the laboratory to the fighting fronts. War is a sterilizing influence in science; the amount of new fundamental knowledge uncovered anywhere between 1939 and 1945 was almost negligible compared with that of any other six years of this century.
At the present time, we are still in a cold war and the accent is, by the very nature of things, on applied science. By that very fact we are, as it were, grinding the seed of our future crops so far as scientific progress is concerned.
In the past Canada has not had a very proud record so far as fundamental research is concerned. So far as I know there has been only one Nobel prize won by a Canadian. I believe there was one won by an American who was born in Canada. I believe that additional efforts should be made, although a fine effort is being made by the national research council, to educate young scientists and try to attract them to positions in this country.
It is a very dangerous thing if we lose a lot of our scientific brains to other countries. There is a great loss of our best minds to other countries, especially to the United States, and the efforts which the national research council is making to retain these young scientists in Canada are very commendable. Of course, there are exceptions to

this trend of our trained scientists going to the United States. The Minister of Trade and Commerce himself is a case in point. He, an American, born and educated in the United States, found that his greatest opportunity was in Canada. But generally speaking the reverse is true.
Other countries are doing a great deal in research, and I think the importance of fundamental research, and then of applied science, should not be lost sight of. The countries which have made great progress in the past have recognized that point. I read not long ago in an official document published by the German government that should Germany not be in a position to continue with her scientific research, she would not have an economy in 30 years' time. Great Britain has recognized the importance of science, and many of her advantages in international trade are the direct result of the progress made in the scientific field.
Of course we canr.ot have a national research' council that will achieve anything if there is not provided for it a steady flow of young scientists of the highest calibre. Someone may say that education is the responsibility of the province. However, I would point out that in Australia, which is a federal state, and where the individual states are responsible for education, they have recognized the need for fostering research on a high level, as well as the necessity for educating first-class scientists.
With that in view a national university has been set up in Australia. It is not a university in the ordinary sense of that word, but it carries on advanced research in several fields. They have scientists who study the environment in which they find themselves, and I believe the university confers only doctorate degrees. In any event only graduates attend that university. Those graduates are collected not only from Australia but from other parts of the world. Young Canadians go there.
This is an example of another country taking an advanced step in an effort not only to derive immediate benefits from applied science, but also with a realization of the necessity for providing a steady stream of young scientists who will press forward fundamental research. There is a book which deals with the national university in Australia, the introduction to which was written by its first chancellor, who is now Australia's high commissioner here in Ottawa. When one reads this book he realizes the forward step Australia has taken. It is one that we in Canada should take. If we had such a set-up in this country we could have a school in. arctic research because, after all. we are
Supply-Trade and Commerce the second greatest of the arctic nations. That is a field in which there will be great competition and great need for knowledge.
Having said that, let me say in closing that a parliamentary committee which would look into this whole question of research would be most valuable. So far as Canada is concerned it might ring the bell which would call the wits together.


Mr. Coldwell:: I should like to say a word on this item. I, too, would like to see a parliamentary committee set up at the next session to go into the activities of the national research council. I was somewhat surprised to hear the hon. member say that private industry could not compete with the national research council in engaging scientists to do the jobs that are necessary. The item before us bears directly on this matter, because it deals with the salaries of those who are employed by the national research council.
If hon. members would turn to the details at page 380 of the book of estimates and look over the salaries paid to those who serve the national research council they would realize at once that with the exception of a few top positions, the bulk of those employed by the research council are not, to put it conservatively, highly paid.
I have been interested for years in the national research council and have always felt that it was performing one of the most useful functions any organization could perform for the country. During that time, I have met scientists who have been engaged with the national research council but who have been offered much higher salaries and perhaps first-class laboratory equipment with private industry. Sometimes they have been offered twice or three times the salaries they were paid by the national research council, with the result that they have gone to private industry. I know, too, of several scientists who have done wonderful work with the national research council, the atomic energy commission, and other government agencies, who have gone to Boston or other points in the United States to work in state institutions in that country which are paying greater emoluments than are paid by the national research council.
Sometimes I wonder how the research council has been able to keep some of its top men, men who are highly trained in technical and other branches of research. If one looks at the grades of occupations, the salaries paid to those grades and the numbers employed at those salaries, he will see at once
6206	HOUSE OF
Supply-Trade and Commerce that, with the exception of a few top positions, the salaries do not compare favourably with those paid to scientists in private industry.
Every effort should be made by parliament to provide adequate funds for the national research council so they will be able to retain the well qualified scientists they have been able to attract to the institution in the past. Anyone who served on the committee which sat three years ago, I believe it was; anyone who looked into the activities of the national research council or visited its laboratories, will agree that we are getting the most valuable service. The only criticism I would offer is that sometimes the results of the efforts of these scientists engaged in all kinds of research are kept in too restricted circles. In my opinion much of the work they do could be published in the public interest. For instance, the investigation of various instruments, or the investigation of chemical products which are used every day in our own homes-for example, detergents-would show the effect such chemicals have on cloth. Some of us were made aware of this when we saw the rags that resulted by changing from soap to detergents. All this might be publicized.
It might be suggested that this would be the work of a private organization such as the consumers' association in the United States. Canada is too small to have a consumers' association of that sort. The national research council is doing that kind of work in some fields, and I should like to see some publicity given to the results of its investigations.
What I really rose to say was that I have looked over the salary schedules of the national research council from time to time. If we look at page 380 of the details we will see that the scientific and executive staffs are not overpaid, and certainly the technical staff, where the top salary is under $6,000 a year, is not overpaid. These useful technicians and scientists are certainly not as well paid as they should be, and that is the reason we lose them occasionally to private industry.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to correct the impression that we do lose a great number of men. During 1954-55 some 16 scientists left the national research council; 13 accepted positions in industry within Canada. I suggest that it is a part of the function of the national research council to train men for industries in Canada, for after all that is strengthening research within Canada just as much as the work of the government. Three left the


country to work outside Canada. Two of them were appointed to university staffs outside Canada. It is natural for scientists to try to get as good positions as possible. I think that is not surprising. Only one left to engage in industry outside Canada. I think my hon. friend will agree that that is not a great turnover.
I am told that the national research council studies the salaries of comparable positions in industry within Canada and outside Canada, and that the remuneration is on a par with that paid to scientists of their seniority.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In the group under
scientific and executive staffs I notice there are 209 junior research officers whose salaries range from $3,600 to $4,500. Can the minister give us any idea how many of these have a Ph.D. degree? In other words, can the minister give us some information as to what the starting salary is for a scientist with a Ph.D. degree?	.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. That would be the ordinary starting salary of a graduate from a university today. A graduate engineer starts at about $3,000, or perhaps $4,200.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Are there any Ph.D.'s in the group of 209 junior research officers which appears on page 380?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I dare say there would be; but after all a man is not paid a starting salary depending on the degrees he holds. The degrees are a help in getting on in the future, but whether a man holds a degree or whether he does not, when he enters into his lifework much depends on what he can do rather than on the papers he carries.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The point the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar was making was that men with comparable degrees seemed to be able to get in some instances twice as much in private industry. I have two friends, two brothers. One was with the national research council, the other one was with a private firm. Both were similarly qualified. The one with the private organization was getting about twice as much as his brother with the national research council.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not as a starting salary.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: No, not as a starting
salary. The one with the national research council has been there for many years, and in my opinion his salary is certainly not as high as it would have been if he had gone

with private industry. I saw the man in charge of research for Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company. Their starting salary for research workers is $395 per month. They said they would take on ten immediately at this salary if the men were available. It seems that men starting with the national research council, with that sort of qualification, would not be getting that sort of salary.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Pretty well.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Mr. Chairman, everyone
recognizes the excellent work of the national research council. There is no question about it, its reputation stands high. But I have heard some criticism from persons in academic life and in other responsible spheres of activity of the opportunities for Canadian graduates with respect to employment in the national research council and with respect to fellowships.
I have no idea whether there is any foundation for that criticism. I am just bringing it to the attention of the minister. I should like him to let the committee know whether all the permanent staff of the national research council are Canadian citizens. Can he inform the committee how the fellowships are granted and what percentage of the fellowships that are in existence today in the council are being exercised by Canadian citizens who are graduates of Canadian universities, or citizens of the British commonwealth, or citizens of other countries?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, the grants by the national research council in aid of research amount to $1,497,000 and for scholarships, $834,000; but these are by no means the only scholarships that are available from federal government funds. Other branches of the government offer fellowships and scholarships. For instance, the Department of National Health and Welfare offers them. I think our contribution is quite liberal for that sort of higher education.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The question I was particularly interested in was this. Are all the employees of the national research council Canadian citizens?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only exception from employment of Canadians is where a scientist is required for special work and cannot be found in Canada. A few have been taken in on that basis.


Mr. Dinsdale:: Mr. Chairman, I want to speak very briefly on this subject of research, mainly because of some of the comments that have been made here this afternoon in reference to the committee that was supposed to have been set up this session. I realize that
15, 1955
Supply-Trade and Commerce any discussion at this stage on the general item is rather a poor substitute for the type of discussion that would have been carried on had parliament been able to go through with its original intentions. However, I would assure the senior member for Halifax that actually there is no division of opinion among members of this group-


John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order-


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: -on this subject.


John Horace Dickey: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman; as I understood your ruling when I was attempting to answer the hon. member for Broadview, it was your view that a discussion of the procedure to set up a committee, and that sort of thing, was not in order on this item, or that it had been sufficiently discussed, and there should be no more discussion of it. I submit that if that ruling was applied to myself it should be applied to other members of the committee.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. It is quite true I admitted my own fault in allowing the discussion to go on at all; but I did rise when I felt it had been sufficiently discussed, and interrupted the hon. member for Halifax, indicating quite clearly, I thought, that it was purely procedural and was not relevant to this item. I therefore must ask other hon. members to refrain from discussing the same subject.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for Halifax was a little fast on the draw, because I was not going to refer to the preceding discussion. I was merely saying there was no difference of opinion among this group as to the proper approach to the subject of research in this country.
I have just one small contribution to make, nevertheless I feel it is important. In the discussion on this item up to the present the immediate emphasis has been entirely on the aspects of physical research, pure research in the realm of the physical sciences. That of course arises from the very nature of the national research council. It emerged during world war I to deal with problems arising from that conflict at that time. Emphasis since has been largely in the direction of the physical sciences. As I look at the report of the council which is the chief source of information, I find reference to topics that belong in the realm of the physical sciences, such as biology, chemistry, physics and so forth.
I suggest that an important aspect of research is being neglected in the activities of the national research council. I refer to the very rich and fruitful field of the social

Supply-Trade and Commerce sciences. Actually the social sciences have their toe in the door of the national research council through the presence of Abbe Maheux of Laval University, who acts in a consultative capacity from the viewpoint of psychology. I understand that here too the chief emphasis is on the physiological aspect of the science of psychology.
I feel that this subject is important because in recent years other countries, the United States in particular, have made encouraging progress in what we might call the nontechnological field of innovation. There have been voices raised in support of a similar emphasis in Canada, one of the more important of those being that of Hugh Keenleyside, who appreciates most deeply and sincerely the social problems which have been created by the rapid changes in technology resulting from the progress in the physical sciences and at the same time the relatively slow progress in the realm of social sciences. Speaking before the federation of agriculture in Victoria two years ago Mr. Keenleyside pinpointed this difficulty very nicely when he said:
This situation results from, and its dangers are infinitely enhanced by, the recent and wholly unprecedented development of man's scientific knowledge and the failure of humanity's moral development and social intelligence to keep pace with this change.
There has been some very worth-while work accomplished in this field, notwithstanding the neglect of the national research council of these matters. There is a voluntary group, the Canadian social science research council, operating in this area and in their latest report they indicate scholarship assistance in research projects currently going forward which I suggest are of extreme importance to Canada. I should like to refer to one or two of these projects to indicate their importance. A student at Laval University is preparing a thesis on patterns of industrial relations in Quebec. A student at the University of Manitoba is preparing a thesis on the Mennonites in Manitoba, a study of historical geography. A student is doing graduate work at the University of London on Canada's selective immigration policies. I could go through the report and indicate many other outstanding projects which are being supported by this voluntary group.
Unfortunately the council depends upon private funds for its support, and in recent years those funds have been drying up. The chief source has been the United States, where research in the non-technological aspects of our human problems has been proceeding very rapidly. More recently the

United States supporters of our Canadian research projects have tended to become less generous.
As I look through the estimates and see the numbers involved in scientific and executive positions under the national research council, I cannot help but feel that there is a definitely lop-sided emphasis in this regard. For instance, there are 137 associate research officers, 197 assistant research officers, 209 junior research officers, and so on. If there were even one dozen or two dozen receiving scholarship support under the national research council to carry on this important work in the social sciences I am sure the results would be of extreme benefit to the economic and social development of this country.
Universities are the chief source of qualified personnel to carry on this type of activity. The president of the University of Toronto drew attention to the problems faced by the universities caused by a lack of sufficient support, and I quote from a newspaper article as follows:
Humanities and social sciences still lag far behind the physical and natural sciences in financial support, according to the president of the University of Toronto, Sidney Smith.
In this annual report he says the situation is nation-wide and will have bad effects on the future of higher education in the country unless it is corrected.
Formation of a Canada Council, as envisaged in the Massey report, would help to redress the imbalance, he claims. There is a need for financing of research in these fields similar to that performed for scientific research by the national research council.
This is a theme which could be and should be discussed at length because it is of the utmost importance, as Mr. Keenleyside has indicated. It is to be hoped that when parliament gets around to discussing the general problem of research in Canada the terms of reference to the committee will be broad enough to include some representations on this most important subject. As I read the original motion it indicated hopeful promise in this regard, because it referred to nonmilitary research in Canada.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. The hon. gentleman has just indicated in his speech what I have been suspecting for some time, namely that his speech is not directly relevant to the item under consideration. The hon. member was in the house and heard the discussion which took place immediately prior to his taking the floor. I think he must recognize the distinction between the pertinent discussion which was taking place on salaries and other matters comprised in this vote and the very general discussion in which he is indulging at the present time. I must therefore ask the hon. member and all other hon. members to

adhere to our strict rule of relevancy. There is a vote which is clearly before the committee and surely it is possible to direct our attention to the terms of the vote.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Mr. Chairman, I thought I was speaking to the point in that I was indicating that I felt the activities of the national research council were not sufficiently broad.
I gathered my information from the report we have before us on the activities of that council for the year 1953-54. If we cannot speak on the basis of the information contained in that report, I would submit that we are being unduly restricted. However, I was coming to a conclusion.
In summing up my remarks and re-emphasizing this neglect of an important aspect of the general field of scientific research, I should like to point out that in the past 15 years the research that has produced the greatest or the most beneficial results in general industry and economic development has been largely of a non-technological kind. That conclusion is drawn from the success of the United States in this regard.
For example, arising from the broader emphasis in that country in its approach to innovation and research, there have been outstanding changes in the methods of trade and distribution of goods and services. In all these developments Canada has followed slowly behind. We have merely imitated and copied the innovations which have taken place there and which have given such a tremendous stimulus to the United States economy. I could go on to mention some aspects of innovations in the processes of trade that have been extremely helpful.
Then there have been new concepts of business organization that have streamlined the whole economic life of the United States of America in this field. Again we are just beginning to explore the possibilities. Several of our larger universities have now established schools of business administration largely based on the experience of similar schools in the country to the south of us.
In view of the drying up of private funds, and in view of the difficulties upon which the president of the University of Toronto and other men in similar positions constantly harp these days, I submit that the time has come when we in Canada must give some consideration to broadening the terms of reference of the national research council so that adequate support might be given to these worth-while activities. I would venture to say that during the immediate period ahead the greatest need for innovation will lie in the social rather than in the technological area. The technological evolution will be
Supply-Trade and Commerce sterile and non-productive unless these other developments take place.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall resolution 284 carry?


Mr. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace):: There are one or two questions on the details that I want to ask if the general discussion is finished.


John Horace Dickey: The general discussion is all out of order, so ask your question.


William McLean Hamilton: That
advice would perhaps be a little more proper, Mr. Chairman, coming from you, but I daresay that you are grateful for the assistance given by the senior member for Halifax. With regard to the details of the estimates, I note that there is an item here for manager, cafeteria. Are there other employees in the cafeteria?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just the manager.


William McLean Hamilton: Just the manager. In other words the cafeteria employs only one individual? From that answer am I to assume that the cafeteria employs only the one individual?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We answered the question. I do not know the reason for this great pause. One man is employed in the cafeteria under this vote. The cafeteria is operated by the employees of the research council and any other help that is needed is paid for by the people that use the cafeteria. Why the pause?


William McLean Hamilton: The
pause, Mr. Chairman, was while waiting for an answer from the minister.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I answered your question.


William McLean Hamilton: Can
the minister tell us what the justification is for a set-up of this nature? I think it is different from that in most of the other government departments, in that the department itself in these estimates accepts the responsibility for the senior member of the cafeteria staff while the others are paid out of cafeteria revenue. Is this not an unusual arrangement in which the government hires the cafeteria manager?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It does not have to be unusual, but what is wrong with it?


Mr. Hamilton (Noire Dame de Grace):: The
wrong of it is this. We are paying out of public money for the management of a cafeteria, and any profit from that cafeteria does not accrue to the Receiver General of Canada. In other words, Mr. Chairman, in this particular instance we are, shall we say,
6210	HOUSE OF
Supply-Trade and Commerce supporting a worth-while endeavour-I am not at this point disputing the fact that there should be a cafeteria-but it is obvious that we are expending public funds. When revenue accrues from those expenditures it does not come in to the public revenue or the Receiver General of Canada. Perhaps the minister can explain whether that is so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This one woman looks after four cafeterias. There is no expense to the crown through the operation of the cafeterias. It is done much more cheaply by letting the users of the cafeterias do the actual operation. They replace all breakage and take care of the running expenses. The meals are and must be priced so the balance sheet comes out on the right side. In other words there is no vote to support four cafeterias, but by having one person in charge of the four we take care of the feeding problem. I would point out that the laboratories of the national research council are some miles from the nearest restaurant. We take care of the feeding problem with a minimum of cost to the crown.


John Borden Hamilton: might just emphasize again that the answer just given establishes the fact. I have no objection to the existence of the cafeterias. I can see their necessity. But here we have a case in which we pay out public funds for an employee to supervise an operation which is not under the immediate direction of the government, and whose expenditures and receipts are not incorporated in the accounts of Canada.
The next question I have relates to the employment of an airport maintenance foreman. Can the minister tell us where the airport is?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the officer we had when we were running the research station at Arnprior. Now that the operation has been moved to Uplands the position is no longer necessary and is being abolished or has been abolished, I am not sure which.


Mr. Hamillon (Noire Dame de Grace):: Could the minister tell us when the move was made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The movement was started last summer, but it was necessary to keep a man at Arnprior to take care of the disposal of the equipment there and to look after the place. The position has now been abolished.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Can
the minister tell us as of what date?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I cannot tell you as of what date. What does it matter?


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to make an issue out of this-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Keep right on making issues.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: -unless it becomes necessary.


Jean Lesage: That is all you are good for.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: You
know, Mr. Chairman-


An hon. Member:: A tempest in a teapot.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: -one of my ears was blocked and I went down and had my ears blown out this morning. But when I listen to the observations from the other side of the house from these speechless wonders over there who speak from their seats and make noises that, like other noises made by one's seat, might better not be heard, I wonder why I bothered to have my ears blown out. That does not apply to the minister. It applies to these other hon. members who are making these snide observations for no reason whatsoever.
I return now to my point. It is a reasonable request on the part of somebody who is being asked to approve an expenditure of money to ask why and how that money is going to be used. We have in front of us a set of details which indicate certain things. We have now been told that the minister does not propose to employ this airport maintenance foreman. I have no intention of retreating from my position until such time as I know when that man ceased to be employed by the department.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: No,
Mr. Chairman. I have other questions. If the minister wants to let these estimates stand and send out and get the information that is satisfactory to me.


An hon. Member:: Adjourn the house.


Francis Alvin George Hamilton: But
it is a reasonable request.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


John Borden Hamilton: No;
I am on my feet and I shall stand here until the minister rises and gives me a reasonable answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman,
I gave an answer. As a matter of fact we are talking about the establishment of the department. The establishment of the department calls for that man. The establishment next

year may not call for him. He was employed until recently. When he left I do not know.


William McLean Hamilton: Would the minister get that information?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I will not.


William McLean Hamilton: What was the minister's answer?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I said no.


William McLean Hamilton: shall return to that point in a moment. Further down I notice that we are employing a canal man. Would the minister tell us where the canal is located? I had better remain on my feet until such time as the minister wishes the floor.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can tell my hon. friend that we operate the power house at the mouth of the Rideau river. The canal man is employed at the power house. We call him a canal man. My hon. friend will probably ask me now why we call him a canal man. I do not know that, but I do not think it is important to my hon. friend to know it either.


William McLean Hamilton: Apart from the sarcasm, that was a very reasonable and fair answer. Now I know why the department needs a canal man.
I am perturbed-and I return to my previous point-because last night in the discussion of another department we had a case where this same minister stated something very definitely and then admitted only a moment later that he did not know whether or not he was right and that he had just pulled the figure out of the air. I can give the minister the exact quotation if he thinks that is an unfair version of his statement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who is complaining? My hon. friend takes himself much too seriously. The only thing I doubt is the wisdom of the electors who sent him here.


Mr. Macdonnell:: We doubt the wisdom of a lot of electors, too.


William McLean Hamilton: I do
not take myself seriously but I have taken the minister seriously, and I realize that I was in error in so doing. I realize there are times when the minister will say almost anything that pops into his head if he feels it will satisfy somebody on the other side or shut them up.


Henry Alfred Hosking: That is not true. He is one minister who does not do that.


William McLean Hamilton: He
demonstrated that last night. Last night the minister was asking for a very large sum
Supply-Trade and Commerce of money in connection with a project which he knew he had no intention of carrying through when he came before the committee. Despite the fact he had no intention of carrying it through, he insisted that the money still be provided. I did not make an issue of the matter at that time. But now we have another case involving a specific example, and I am pursuing it because it is a test of the minister's estimates as such.
We have three pages of detailed figures here. If the government is doing the best job it can, we on this side of the house have every reason to put our trust in these figures when we are examining the estimates. If we have some reason to believe that the figures are not right-and I am beginning to feel that at least in certain cases that is so-then it is right and proper that we should test the figures just as any good auditor would in making an audit, or as any good accountant would in examining the books of a company.
Here is a specific case. It is a little microcosm of the whole estimates. I have asked the minister as politely as I know how for an explanation regarding a specific position. The minister said he did not know. I can understand that because no minister could be expected to know the myriad details of his entire department. I then asked the minister if he would please send for the information. That is the point of departure between the minister and myself, because the minister said no. It is my interpretation that we are entitled to information we ask for on these estimates. I realize it will make me most unpopular-


Jean Lesage: You do not need that to be unpopular.


John Borden Hamilton: -but
those of us who in this case are on the side of the angels can quite realize that the devils on the other side may find us unappealing at times. After the explanation I have given the minister and the reasonable request I have made, I wonder whether he would consider getting that information for me in order that we can have some idea whether this item was put in after it was obvious that the man was not going to be needed, which I believe to be so because the minister has told us that the airport was closed down last summer or before. I think we have a very clear indication here that some of these estimates are being padded in order to build them up and get a larger amount than the department actually needs so that various amounts can be moved around at the discretion of departmental officials.
6212	HOUSE OF
Supply-Trade and Commerce
Now, we know that while we pass these estimates on the basis of the individual details in the back of the book, in actual legal practice and in so far as the treasury board is concerned, we are passing only one gross amount for each section of the department. Once that gross amount is passed the minister is in a position, with the approval of the treasury board and sometimes without, to move that money around from one point to another. If, for example-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps I can stop this nonsense. This man is on the staff of the national research council, a civil servant on the establishment of the research council. He was transferred to the duty of being in charge of vehicles at the Montreal road establishment. This position needed to be filled, and he moved to the new position on July 1, 1955. The position, though it has been vacated, is on the establishment and will be on the establishment until the establishment is next revised when it will be dropped. I can tell my hon. friend that there are not occupants for every item on the establishment of the national research council, just as there are not occupants for every position on the establishment of the Department of Finance or any other department. I am sorry to have to educate him on this point which we would expect him to know, but still that is a fact.


William McLean Hamilton: I am very grateful to the minister for finally seeing the wisdom of my argument and giving me the information which I required. I would just finish, because many people other than the members of this house read Hansard, by saying that when I was interrupted I was pointing out that the department or the minister in conjunction with the treasury board could move items around within the department. It is because of this that some of us feel there is necessity for examining these items closely. If we did not have a satisfactory answer from the minister, he would have an amount of $3,660 which could be spent in a great many ways. We would have voted that money to him, and as long as it was spent for general purposes, salaries and other expenses of the national research council, parliament would have no immediate control over how the money was spent. It was for that reason I pressed the argument.
I again thank the minister for finally giving a reasonable answer to a reasonable question.


Owen C. Trainor: I would ask the parliamentary assistant whether, in his remarks during the debate this afternoon concerning the activities of the government in the field of research, he 

was attempting to present an argument designed to show the lack of necessity for setting up this proposed parliamentary committee on research?


John Horace Dickey: The answer is no, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic energy control board-
51. Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $45,650.
Howard Charles Green: Is the minister going to make any statement on this item?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The atomic energy control board was set up some years ago, as my hon. friend knows, to have charge of the rules and the regulations governing atomic energy. Its duties have not changed, nor has its personnel. There is a grant for research which is still being maintained in that connection.


Howard Charles Green: There are three or four questions with which I would ask the minister to deal in connection with the Canadian atomic energy program. The first has to do with-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps we could pass the item on the control board, and then move on to atomic energy.


Howard Charles Green: Yes, I do not mind.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-
53. Current operation and maintenance, including expendable research equipment, $11,366,183.
Howard Charles Green: The first question has to do with the use of atomic energy reactors for supplying power to the distant early warning line. I notice that in the agreement between the governments of Canada and the United States, which was dated June 15 of this year, there appears this provision dealing with reactors in article II, section B, paragraph 2:
Nevertheless, information pertaining to military nuclear power plants in furtherance of the joint Canada-United States defence effort in the development of an early warning radar network, may be exchanged.
As the minister knows, this particular-agreement having to do with the use of atomic energy for peacetime purposes provides that there shall be no exchange of military information, with this one exception that any information concerning the installation of atomic energy plants in connection with radar networks in northern Canada may be exchanged. Press reports issued a few days after that agreement was made public, or perhaps on the same day, indicated that

the United States would provide the power for their radar stations in the distant early warning line by the use of atomic energy reactors.
I am wondering whether there is any possibility of Canada taking part in the installation of these atomic energy power plants; if not in connection with either that warning line or the mid-continent warning line, is there some way in which Canada could make use of atomic energy power plants of this kind in the development of other parts of northern Canada? This seems to be a field in which the nation might derive great benefit. We have the provision in this agreement that Canada can get the necessary information from the United States and I am hoping that there can be some provision made for a development such as I have mentioned.
Then, another question has to do with the use of atomic energy for the production of power in parts of the country where there is a shortage of hydroelectric power. I will not go into the details of that because, as the minister knows, we have considered it on other occasions. Is there any possibility that this source of power could be made available to such areas as Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and other parts of the country which do not have hydroelectric power in any quantity? I know that this demonstration power station is to be erected on the Ottawa river by Ontario hydro, in co-operation with Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and I think with Canadian General Electric. Presumably that will result in the production of power in Ontario which, as we know, is becoming short of electrical power. But I wish the minister would explain whether the government has any plans in mind which would lead to the use of atomic energy for the production of power in other parts of Canada such as Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and northern Canada to which I referred a moment ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In connection with the use of atomic power for the mid-Canada line and the distant early warning line, we are watching the development of energy for that purpose very carefully. The hon. member will understand that there are a number of different approaches to the development of power from atomic energy. As he has said, we have one reactor under way on the Ottawa river. I suppose the United States have at least ten different approaches. There are different sizes of power plants, some of which are very much largei; than anything we are doing. Of course the project he has been speaking about would be smaller than the one we are doing.
Supply-Trade and Commerce
The only one that is operating and in actual use is the one applied to the submarine. No one likes to close his mind to other possibilities until we can test out the relative merits of the various approaches being made. When the hon. member asks me if we are planning power developments for the north, or power developments for here, there and everywhere, my reply would be that what we are trying to do at the moment is to find out the economies that can be achieved from various types of development. We have our own approach, which we think is very important because, after all, you learn only by doing. We are watching similar developments in the United States, and from that we hope to come to a conclusion as to the type of plant that is suitable for each particular purpose. When we do we will certainly make the information available here.
We hope the federal government's part in the development of atomic energy can be limited to development work. In other words, if the thing is developed commercially we would hope that commercial interests would take over and carry on, as they do in hydroelectric development. We are trying to reach that point, but at the moment anything we are doing in connection with power is part of a general exploration of the possibility of the development of power from that source.


Howard Charles Green: If the Americans are able to instal plants in connection with the D.E.W. line, would Canada be in a position to take advantage of the information the Americans gained and, if she saw fit, use the same type of power plants for other purposes in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, absolutely. That is within the range of the exchange of information.


Howard Charles Green: Another point arises out of this agreement between Canada and the United States. I refer to the possibility of Canada processing her uranium to a greater extent within the country than has been done in the past. Article II C of the agreement, which is headed "Source Materials", says:
Geology, exploration techniques, chemistry and technology of extracting uranium and thorium from their ores and concentrates, the chemistry, production technology, and techniques of purification and fabrication of uranium and thorium compounds and metals, including design, construction and operation of plants, except as provided in paragraph A.
In other words under this agreement all that information is now available to Canada. And there is also the provision in paragraphs
6214	HOUSE OF
Supply-Trade and Commerce (a), (b) and (c) of article VI for sale by the United States to Canada of what is described in paragraph A as-
...uranium enriched in the isotope U235 as may be required in the power reactor program in Canada.
And in paragraph B:
Uranium of normal isotopic composition,
And in paragraph C:
Heavy water for use in the NRX and NRU reactors.
Those terms in the agreement cover the sale to Canada of these particular finished products. I believe the heavy water actually is manufactured in Trail, British Columbia, though in a plant which the United States government owns or controls.
Mr. Bennett, president of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, in a press statement at the time this agreement was made public, indicated that as a result of the agreement Canada might soon be in a position to carry out all three stages of uranium processing at its Port Hope plant. To quote the report:
-thus ending the necessity of paying the U.S. to finish the produce for use in reactors.
Apparently the position is that Canadian uranium is taken to the United States and processed, and Canada buys it back. As I have indicated, it is not exactly the same procedure in the case of heavy water. I do not know what the position is there. Could this agreement result in Canada processing her uranium ore throughout, from the ore right through to the finished material?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. As a matter of fact during the last 18 months our refinery at Port Hope has been completely rebuilt. It is now operating under a new process which is as efficient as anything in the United States. We have not yet undertaken to make the rods, the metallic uranium. However, that is not a difficult process. We could do it, but it seems cheaper to buy the rods from the United States in exchange for the refined uranium. It is just a matter of economics. If we got heavily into power development it would pay to make the rods here, but it does require fairly heavy equipment. I do not think there is anything in the refining and processing of uranium, from the ore to the finished rod, wherein Canada is not as efficient as the United States.
As I say, we do not make the rods. However, we do make plutonium here. We have not put in the very expensive process that is necessary for the enrichment of uranium U235. We believe that expenditure is not warranted. It is just a matter of trying to adapt our processes to our purse.


Howard Charles Green: Is it government policy to do this processing, or has the minister in mind eventually turning some of that work over to private industry?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, certainly the United States does not turn any of that work over to private industry. So long as uranium is a war potential, as it is today, I do not think anyone would dare turn its processing at any stage over to private industry.


Howard Charles Green: What is the position with regard to the production of uranium in Canada? A year ago I believe there was only one privately owned mine that was actually marketing uranium ore. The rest of the ore was being produced by the Eldorado company. Is that still the case today? Where does Canada stand in relation to other nations in the production of uranium? Are we the second or the third, or where do we stand?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, the figures are not given. We are either second or third, but I could not prove either because I do not know the total production of other countries, and no one knows the total production of Canada except those who are entitled to the classified information. But we have two or three privately owned companies in the Beaverlodge area actually delivering ore to the government refinery at Beaverlodge, and nearby there is a very large operation expected to come into production this autumn. In the Algoma area there are several mines in the course of production. They will probably come in in 1956, or possibly in 1957.


Howard Charles Green: Is that situation considered
satisfactory by the government; that is, is the production of uranium ore considered satisfactory?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It seems to me there is plenty of uranium ore being produced; at least, we have undertaken to purchase all the finished product that is produced in Canada up to the present time. At the rate new discoveries are being made, how long we can continue in that position I cannot say.


Howard Charles Green: Just one final question. All the votes for atomic energy development, including the supplementaries, appear to total just under $35 million, which is quite a sizeable sum. As the minister knows, this is a very restricted field. It is one about which parliament knows very little. I am wondering what the minister has in mind with regard to providing an adequate check by parliament over the expenditures of this money in these developments, which are practically all government developments? It was pointed out

earlier this afternoon that there have been committees in two sessions since the war investigating developments in the atomic energy field. What has the minister to suggest for the future that would keep parliament closely in touch with what has taken place, and with the expenditure of these sums of money?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I have always favoured a committee. As my hon. friend knows, I have never resisted a committee on atomic energy. I do not think the situation warrants a permanent committee. The committees have consisted of pretty much the same personnel from year to year. As I say, it is no fault of mine that this committee was not called this year. I put the resolution on the order paper after we had agreed on the wording of it, and it has been there ever since. Any time the house leader would have allowed a debate on it we would have been very glad to participate whether I was in Canada or not.
Next year we shall be very glad to consider it. I think it is better to have a committee on atomic energy. I believe it is a big enough field. If other committees in the fields of science are needed, perhaps they could be separate committees. I would welcome one. I think it is desirable to have a committee on atomic energy from time to time.


Howard Charles Green: I would hope the government would take that step at the next session.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (research program)-
640. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of works at Deep River for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-further amount required, $2,239,500.
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, in the annual budget of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited for the financial year 1955-56, which was approved on February 17, 1955, the total shown is $15,007,465. I take it that this figure does not include the amounts shown in the supplementary estimates. If that is the case, how do those amounts in the supplementary estimates fit in with the annual budgets? To what parts of the budget are they applicable?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. This is entirely required for increased housing and other construction. As my hon. friend knows, all the construction in the town of Deep River is carried on by the government of Canada. It was an underestimate as to the amount of
15. 1955
Supply-Trade and Commerce construction required, and this is the amount required to supply the capital needed.


Howard Charles Green: It is a different type of vote from the amount shown in the ordinary estimates?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is the same type of vote, but the estimate made last fall apparently was not sufficient to take care of the actual needs as they have subsequently developed.


Howard Charles Green: As I said a while ago, the total vote is about $35 million. Has the minister any idea whether that amount will be going up each year, or what are the estimates of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in that regard?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It goes down. This is a big year; $34,006,000 next year; 1957, $31 million; $1958, $24 million; in 1959, $15 million; and in 1960, $16 million. That is the five-year program as we see it today. There is another factor. Next year there should be more substantial earnings from the production. We have contracts with the United States for the sale of plutonium. We also have certain research contracts. It so happens that this is a very high intensity flux, and we have been called on to do a great deal of experimenting, both for the United Kingdom and the United States, owing to the fact that we have a pile that can do experimental work that other piles cannot. We have to somewhat remodel our latest reactor in order to make it possible to fill that role, and we are paid for that work. There again, that is a source of income that will grow from year to year.


Howard Charles Green: The minister says they are paying for it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, whoever has the work done is paying for it.


Howard Charles Green: Do the figures the minister just gave for expenditures in the years ahead take into account the estimated revenues?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Howard Charles Green: Or were they without the revenues?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Without the revenues.


Howard Charles Green: When will the new reactor be completed?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told it is the net requirement. The new reactor should be in operation by next summer.


Howard Charles Green: When?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The fall of 1956.

Supply-Defence Production


Howard Charles Green: Has the government in mind the construction Of any other reactor at Chalk River?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We are doing development work with other reactors. This provides for a substantial development program. The staff at Chalk River will continue to do development work. The actual project we have there is the project under way at the present time at Chalk River, plus the power development that we are doing jointly with the Ontario hydro.


Howard Charles Green: Is any money included in the vote for the power development?


Clarence Decatur Howe: 


Howard Charles Green: Under which vote does that come?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The research capital vote.


Howard Charles Green: Is that a supplementary vote?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is included in the main estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
85. Departmental administration and payments to Canadian Commercial Corporation and other corporate agencies for services provided in connection with defence purchasing and production, $6,391,430.
George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, may I say that in view of the fact that already there has been an interesting discussion not only of the policies of this department but also of the details, it is not our intention to avail ourselves of the opportunity ordinarily afforded to open up a general discussion under this item. Therefore we shall proceed with the items themselves. I would point out that in so far as the items are concerned, the department carries out work which goes far beyond the amounts covered by the items. It is a procurement department and the large sums which are involved are embraced in the expenditures of other departments. I make that comment because they will be discussed in large measure, or have been discussed, under the items of other departments.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman, there is a question which I would like to raise and probably it would come under this general item as conveniently as anywhere. The minister of course is familiar with the offer which has been made by the Hawker-Siddeley group with whom Avro is associated to the shareholders of Canadian Car and Foundry. I intend to ask the minister some questions about this. He has been at pains to tell us of the great public investment in Avro, and I should like to ask the minister if he would
fMr. Howe (Port Arthur).]
comment on this proposal. After his comment there may be other questions I would like to ask.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Large sums have come out from the United Kingdom to be invested by the Hawker-Siddeley group in Canada, and this group has made an offer for Canadian Car and Foundry. The Department of Defence Production was not consulted in any way and it was as much of a surprise to us as it was to my hon. friend when we read about it in the newspapers.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am interested in the minister saying that it was a surprise to him, as I would not have expected it to be. The minister told us in some detail about a month ago of our investment-I suppose I can call it that-of about $122 million in the Avro company. Without attempting to define the exact legal relationship which the government has by reason of that large investment, I confess I would have expected that there would have been some knowledge on the government's part of a transaction of this kind which could so radically change the character of the Avro company. I notice that Mr. Gordon is quoted as saying that it is a natural one for both companies. But he also said that Canadian Car was established in the commercial field, into which Avro had not yet moved although both industries were heavy industries.
Again having regard to what the minister told us a few weeks ago, and also the rather extensive conversation I had with the minister just three years ago when these estimates were up and during which he outlined in detail the position with regard to the Avro company-the investment at that time was almost the same, $120 million-I should like to ask the minister if he will comment on this situation which I take it will go a long way toward creating a monopoly in the aircraft industry in Canada. Perhaps the minister, who is so familiar with it, could give us the percentage which would be under the control of this group if this deal is carried out, as seems likely.
First of all you have the Canadian Car situation, then you have the Canadair situation, with one important director common to both companies. What is going to be the position of the government which is the purchaser of Avro's products? Has the government any view on this near-monopoly, if I may correctly describe it in that way? Might not the government have been expected to be consulted in the matter when in ordinary common-sense usage of words they could be described as being a very large partner?
I have asked a lot of questions, and perhaps I might run over one or two of them. The

minister has told us that the department was not consulted in any way. I should like to ask if they should not have been consulted. The minister has made it very clear to us in other circumstances that the government acted very definitely in connection with the Avro company. What is the minister's feeling about this near-monopoly? Does he not think it is undesirable to have a situation set up where the government will still, as I see it, be a large partner in the new organization which will dominate the aircraft industry? Perhaps tie could give us an idea of the percentage which will be controlled in this way. With the support they have been given from government funds, presumably they are going to step into competition in other fields.
It would be interesting to hear the minister comment on the whole situation. He has told us that he was as surprised as the rest of us to hear of this transaction. Do I understand that this transaction is being carried out without any assistance, directly or indirectly, from the government, either through defence production or in any other way? Of course in one way they have government assistance, in that Avro finds itself in its present position largely due to the huge sums which the government has paid out to them.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Before the minister replies, perhaps this would be a good time to indicate that it is five o'clock, at which time the house will consider private and public bills.
At five o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair.



PRIVATE BILLS

Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Speaker, I think you will find that there is general agreement that we go on with the estimates.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaile):: Is
there unanimous consent that private and public bills will not be discussed at this time?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF DEFENCE PRODUCTION

[Stage Direction]
85.	Departmental administration and payments to Canadian Commercial Corporation and other corporate agencies for services provided in connection with defence purchasing and production, $6,391,430.
Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, the position of Avro has developed over the years. In the process of the liquidation of war plants after the second world war the Avro plant, as it was then, was sold to the Hawker-Siddeley group for a price which called for payments 50433-393
Supply-Defence Production over a period of time. Very little work was being done in the plant, but the plant was kept open. When the Korea crisis developed, of course, the plant became engaged in the development of the CF-100 aircraft and the Orenda engine.
Some work on the engine had been carried on before. It was started toward the end of the last war in another government plant, and was put in there as a means of keeping the plant open. The development work was being carried on there at the time. We had a requirement from the air force to develop an all-weather fighter plane which is today the CF-100. We did that work at Avro. As I say, before we got our first plane we had invested some $122 million, I think it was, in that project. That included the building and equipping of that engine plant. It included substantial additions to the aircraft plant and the installation of additional equipment for the aircraft plant. It included expenses for tooling, expenses for development and of course production materials.
When the plane came into production and others were made, that money was recovered or was in process of being recovered through the delivery of the finished product. We were able to recover the money from the air force by delivering the aircraft to the Department of National Defence. That went on and that particular development work became work in process.
As time went on an agreement was entered into with Avro by which they acquired the real property by purchase from the crown. They purchased it at cost less normal depreciation. Land and buildings costing $17,388,000 were sold to A. V. Roe for $17,153,000 on July 1, 1953. That payment has been made in full, so that Avro today own their physical property. The crown still has equipment or machinery in the plant, just as we have in many plants doing war work and which we own. That machinery in the Avro plant has a purchase price of $44 million. That is property of the crown and can be removed by the crown at any time.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I interject a question there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, certainly.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the amount now owing to the crown? Is it just the $44 million that the minister has mentioned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, there is nothing owing to the crown. The crown has in the plant certain equipment which the crown owns. There has been no arrangement for sale of the equipment in the plant to Avro. That is the situation where special

Supply-Defence Production equipment is required for production in almost any plant. The equipment is purchased by the crown, and put in the plant, and the crown retains ownership.
However, as the situation is today, the Avro company is a private company just as Canadian Car is a private company. They both do work for the crown. They both do aircraft work for the crown. The aircraft part of Canadian Car work is rather minor. They had a building in Port Arthur built years ago to assemble freight cars, which has been converted into an aircraft plant and in which they build aircraft and buses. But it is not a major aircraft company. I do not like companies that are too big. If the hon. member wants my impression, my objection is largely as to the size. But if the management is efficient I do not think the interests of the Department of Defence Production will be adversely affected.
My hon. friend speaks of competition. There is not much competition in buying aircraft or buying work of that kind. The cost has to be established for the particular unit. It is possible to get competition between plants as to which will do it for the least cost. That is a matter that must be decided by the person placing the aircraft order. But we try to put development work into the plants that we think can do it most economically.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What percentage of the aircraft manufacturing capacity in Canada will now be in this merger if it is made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know the answer but I guess it would be about 50 per cent. Canadian Car are not now prime contractors in aircraft; they are only subcontractors. It would be less than 50 per cent of the floor space that is devoted to the manufacture of aircraft.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Three years ago the minister told us that the amount of government money that had gone in was $120 million for what was described as facilities, materials and work in progress. Those were the words used. What amount is still owing to the government? The minister has explained that the real estate was bought and paid for, so I understand.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What amount is still owing?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is nothing owing. We still pay for work in process.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I put it in this way. How much of the land, buildings and equipment which is used in producing aircraft at Avro represents government investment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have an investment of $44 million in equipment. We own the equipment. We have made no arrangement to sell the equipment at Avro. We can take it from the plant at any time we like. We sold the buildings and facilities other than manufacturing equipment.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That means that the figure of $120 million has been reduced to what?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The $120 million included work in process. A great deal of it was aluminum that went into planes. A great deal of it was material bought for the manufacture of engines which have since been manufactured and paid for by the R.C.A.F. But there was always work in process. The difficulty at the time was that we found that when we had invested $122 million we had no production. The production has been coming out for a year or so, and it is still coming out. The main interest today is our investment in machinery used in the plant, special machinery which we own, and payment for work in process, which is labour and materials going into aircraft that are not yet completed. When they are completed we deliver them to the R.C.A.F. and we are paid by the R.C.A.F. for the aircraft. That reduces our commitment to A.V. Roe.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to speak now about Canadair. The minister shook his head when I referred to the fact that Mr. Notman, president of Canadair, is a director of the car company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. He was a
director of the car company. I asked him about that and he said that he had resigned from the car company as soon as he heard that a deal was in prospect. Of course Canadair has no interest in this latest merger in any way. It is because they wanted to operate both that Mr. Notman resigned from the Canadian Car board.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister's answer, particularly his statement that he knew nothing of it and was as surprised as any of the rest of us, makes it in a way difficult to pursue the matter. Yet it leaves me with the uncomfortable feeling that after all in other cases, as the minister has been very careful and emphatic in pointing out to us, the department not only was consulted but played a very effective part, while here we have a situation where indirectly, if you will-I will not say directly-an investment of the government of Canada is being made a sort of steppingstone for this merger which the minister has quite frankly said he does not entirely like on the ground that things get too big.

That is my own feeling, too. But I must say that it seems to me a rather extraordinary procedure. We still have an investment, as I understand, in machinery which is far beyond the value of the real estate. We are in a real sense the biggest partner, using that term in its broad sense, yet we are not even consulted.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Of course we do own machinery in the two Avro plants. There are two separate operations there, as a matter of fact; two separate companies. One is the engine plant and the other is the airframe plant. Avro also have other buildings they have built with their own funds and other machinery they own. If you go through the plant you will find that our machinery is marked one way and their machinery is marked another way. Our machinery is shown on our capital inventory, and it is carefully segregated so that our ownership cannot be in dispute at any time. We would be very much interested if we thought any government interest was being prejudiced, but we do not think so.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the arrangement for payment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is all paid off. There is no commitment by Avro to pay us anything. All that money has been paid.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That means we are still a partner by reason of the machinery we have there.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The machinery can only be used for defence projects. If they want to use the machinery for any other project they must either buy it or pay us a rental for it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister mean that we get no rental for that large investment if it is used for aircraft projects only?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: But if it is used for other projects we shall?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: In itself that seems to me another reason why we should have been consulted.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is the arrangement where government machinery is installed in a plant. If the plant is not busy and wants to take on private work it can do so, provided it pays us an adequate rental for the use of the government machinery. We have cases of that kind today. We have a regular scale of substantial fees.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Fees?
50433-393J
Supply-Defence Production


Clarence Decatur Howe: For the use of
such machinery for other than government contracts.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Meanwhile I suppose from the tax point of view that machinery is depreciated and the company eventually will be able to replace it and own it outright itself.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, the company cannot depreciate it because it does not own it. It is owned by the crown. It belongs to us. If it wears out the wear is our loss, but there is no write-off on the machinery by the company for the reason that they do not own it. You cannot write off a thing you do not own.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Are you under obligation to replace it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. We are not
even under obligation to keep it there. We could move some trucks there tomorrow and take it all out if we wished to do so.
Mr. Pallet!: I was rather interested in the remark of the minister that the government only had an investment of $44 million in machinery in the Avro plant. I think in fairness I should point out that we have a very substantial investment in that plant in the manpower that has been trained through the use of government money. These aircraft workers were trained on government contracts and, as the hon. member for Greenwood pointed out, there is also a large investment in machinery.
I should like the minister to answer two questions. First, is there in contemplation the issue of sufficient contracts to the company or in fact have sufficient contracts been issued to the company to assure continued employment for the aircraft workers now employed? Second, if there are not sufficient contracts in contemplation or being given to the company, has any consideration been given in conjunction with the company to encouraging them in the production of civilian aircraft so this working force of skilled aircraft workers can be maintained? It is possible they could easily find employment in other occupations, but you do not create aircraft workers as highly skilled as they are overnight. Has the minister any thoughts on this matter that he would care to give to the committee?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I can say that if any aircraft plant in Canada is well off as far as government contracts are concerned, Avro is in the best position.


Mr. Palleit:: That was an answer but not, I submit, an answer to the question. Have sufficient contracts been issued or are there

Supply-Defence Production sufficient in contemplation to assure the employment of the present workers? There is a history of aircraft manufacturing in that plant, and I suggest that the minister knows how many workers are required to fulfil certain contracts of the department. Combining those two factors, surely he can tell the committee whether there are sufficient contracts to assure that the workers will be continually employed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are certain data that have not been fed into the machine yet. One item of data would be what is the future of the peace of the world. There are various other factors. What are the requirements of the R.C.A.F., and what will be the views of future parliaments as to the amount of money that should be appropriated for the building of aircraft? If we knew these factors we could come closer to a prediction, but even then I doubt whether we could make an accurate prediction.
The purpose of producing munitions is not to provide employment. The purpose is to defend Canada. As Minister of Defence Production I would not want to go any farther than to say that if weapons are required for the defence of Canada and money is supplied to the armed services, we shall endeavour to take care of the procurement as best we can.


John Cameron Pallett: That is perhaps a partial answer to the first part of the question, but what about the second part? If the minister is not sure about sufficient defence requirements to ensure employment, may I ask him if any consultation has taken place between his department and Avro with respect to the manufacture of civilian aircraft so they may get into the transport business and maintain their present nucleus of aircraft workers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If Avro can dig up any transport business we will be very glad to discuss with them the possibility of undertaking contracts in their plant. I do not know of any transport business going, as a matter of fact.


John Cameron Pallett: It is my understanding that at one stage of their development they designed and developed a jet transport that at the time was comparable with anything then on the market, and that if it had been developed, and promoted and certain modifications made they could have obtained a very important part of the transport market. That is my information. I also understand that as a result of necessary defence orders placed by the department, further steps were not taken. There was a direct interference that precluded them from getting into that market
(Mr. Pallett.l

and probably had an effect on the future of the workers of the plant. Once the department takes people out of a certain field it seems to me it has a responsibility to assist them in getting back into it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to ask the minister one more question. I want to be quite clear that the minister has told us that these English people who control Avro are free from any restriction of any kind, that this deal was carried out absolutely on their own without reference to or even knowledge of the department, that it was absolutely their own affair, and that that is the whole story so far as the minister knows it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a correct statement.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to raise a question with regard to crown assets, and I am not quite sure whether I had better do it at this time or later.


John Horace Dickey: Item 89.


Howard Charles Green: The annual report of the Department of Defence Production for the year 1954 shows that at the end of that year there were 1,509 employees. It also showed that there were 23 men from industry employed under the Defence Production Act, four of them serving the department without salary. Could the minister give me corresponding figures as of the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As of June 30, 1955, we had three unpaid workers from industry; we had seven on part salary or fee or honorarium, and five on full salary. Those are special appointments, not through the civil service. You will find that we now have 15 men


Howard Charles Green: That is 15 instead of 23?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right. We are working in the direction, for the long pull, of having the department staffed entirely by civil servants. We have 196 permanent civil servants and 1,309 temporaries, or a total staff of 1,520 persons. I am happy to say that the permanents were men who came from other departments of government, and I am glad to say that the 1,309 temporaries can now become permanent.


Howard Charles Green: The total is 1,505, is it?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, plus the 15 above, making a total strength for the department of 1,520.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

86.	Care, maintenance and custody of stand-by, crown-owned plants, buildings, machine tools and production tooling, $750,000.
Howard Charles Green: Is it expected that the amount required this year will be approximately the same as last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is for care and maintenance?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe that is an amount that will grow. There is a study going on as to how to maintain a plant in operative condition without operating it. We have had people down in the United States studying their methods; one is the stand-by under power and another is mothballing. This is the expenditure under which we finance the laying up of plants out of active operation. The amount may increase, but we believe $750,000 is a reasonable expenditure for this year.


Howard Charles Green: The reason I ask the question is that when one turns to the details on page 169, we find that although the vote last year was the same, $750,000, there was only some $425,000 spent. It would seem that there could be some reduction in that vote unless additional work has been undertaken for this fiscal year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a growing problem. As the process continues there will be plants going out of production for the time being, for instance a gun plant or an ammunition plant. There is an expense even in dismantling the plant and storing the equipment. The practice here and in the United States at the moment is not to dismantle the plant while the threat of war continues, but to mothball the plant and keep it ready for action. As more plants come in for this treatment the amount required for the purpose will grow.


Howard Charles Green: Are more plants being mothballed all the time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, or it may be
one production line that is mothballed. It may not be the entire plant. For instance, we may have a production line for war vehicles, and when the required number of vehicles is produced, we would mothball the line and keep it there. If more vehicles are required we can start the line up again.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Defence Production
87.	To provide capital assistance for the construction. acquisition, extension or improvement of capital equipment or works by private contractors engaged in defence contracts, or by crown plants operated on a management-fee basis, or by crown companies under direction of the Minister of Defence Production, subject to approval of treasury board, $8,250,000.
Howard Charles Green: The same remarks apply to this item. Last year there was a vote of $24,500,000. When we turn to the details on page 170, we find that the estimated total amount spent was only $8,820,891, that is about $16 million less than the vote. The amount asked for this fiscal year seems to be just related to the amount that was actually spent during the last fiscal year. Has the minister any closer estimate of the amount that will be required during the present fiscal year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, we think this covers the cost of the facilities we feel we will require this year for the work in sight. We are constantly endeavouring to cut down that amount, but we have to provide for it. We suggest to a contractor he could very well construct a building with his own funds and take accelerated depreciation. It is a vote that you can never be sure will be required, but you must estimate the amount that will be required and try to get along with less. I think that is the way to put it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Crown companies-
89.	To provide for expenses Incurred by Defence Construction (1951) Limited in procuring the construction of defence projects on behalf of the Department of National Defence, $3,500,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to ask the minister a question on this item, in connection with crown assets disposal. Would the minister tell me how many employees there are in that organization, roughly?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry, but we do not seem to have the figure. I shall be glad to try to get it this evening, but there are around 75 employees.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Crown Assets is the successor to the war assets corporation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: How would the number of employees compare with the number seven or eight years ago?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We had thousands at one time. After the war we delivered all the surplus material to the war assets corporation to store, process and get rid of. Today the Crown Assets Disposal Corporation is the disposal agency for all government property. Instead of each department selling

Supply-Defence Production its own property it is now all declared to Crown Assets Disposal Corporation and the sales are made by that corporation.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It seems to have become so small. Last year the total sales were $4 million. I notice an item here for Central Mortgage and Housing of $17,000; Canadian Arsenals, $13,000. I notice the report speaks about supervision of the disposal of scrap which required visits to 276 prime and subcontractors' plants by the supply division of this corporation. My question really is this. With the lapse of time and since the business has shrunk-it was $100 million eight or ten years ago, and it has shrunk from that to about $4 million-is there a chance you have an overgrown organization to do a very small amount of business?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As a matter of fact earnings are based on turnover. I think their costs are about 8 per cent of the turnover, which is a very low figure indeed for disposal work.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I believe the figure given is 10 per cent.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Gross sales for the fiscal year 1954-55 amounted to $5,578,069. Order in council P.C. 6/524 of April 2, 1953, authorized the corporation to retain 10 per cent of the net proceeds of sales to meet administrative expenses. The annual report states that the corporation operated during the past year on a margin of 7 [DOT] 9 per cent.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not going to press the matter; after all, the minister is familiar with these things. If he believes that the total cost-and when I say "total" I mean "total"-is such that it is being done more cheaply than it could be done on the ordinary commission basis, or that there are any other things that could not be done on a commission basis, that is perhaps the answer.


Howard Charles Green: I should like to ask the minister a question about Defence Construction (1951) Limited. Is an attempt being made to turn over to the Department of Public Works some of the construction which in the past has been done by this crown company. As the minister knows the recommendation has come from the standing committee on finance of the Senate that government building so far as possible should be placed under the Department of Public Works. I note that while that department is to have only about $85 million for construction in the present year, according to the annual report of Defence Construction (1951) Limited for the year ended March 31, 1955, it expected to spend about $100 million in the same period.

I realize some of that work will be abroad, perhaps in Germany, France and the United Kingdom. Is any attempt being made to place as much as possible of such work under the Department of Public Works, where a good deal of it would seem to belong?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Defence Production Act makes the Department of Defence Production responsible for all procurement of buildings and other works for the armed services. As a matter of fact we delegate the building of airports to the Department of Transport. We also delegate a good deal of construction to the Department of Public Works. For instance, all housing is handled by that department, as well as jetty work on the east coast. But there is work such as that connected with the mid-Canada line and other military installations that seems to be peculiarly of a kind that should be carried out by the Department of Defence Production. That work is being carried out by the crown corporation to which the hon. member refers.


Howard Charles Green: Before the last war all forts around Vancouver were built by the Department of Public Works. Is that department in a position to do similar work at the present time, or must it be done by Defence Construction (1951) Limited?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Did the hon.
member refer to forts?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, they would
be built by	the	army.	I do not think the	Department fortifications.	of	Public	Works ever	built


Howard Charles Green: I was	referring to	gun
installations.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think that was done by the army.


Howard Charles Green: Then there is no policy in the Department of Defence Production to channel off more of this construction work to the Department of Public Works.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian Arsenals Limited-
90.	Administration and operation, $1.
Mr. Dufresne:: Before making a few observations in French I should like to ask the minister one or two questions. How many lay-offs took place at Valcartier arsenal since November 1, 1954?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say. I could not tell the hon. member how many people were hired at that time, either.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Who can give me the information? If the minister cannot give it, who can? After all, it is his department. He is supposed to be head of it. Does the minister say that he cannot give me an answer?


Howard Charles Green: Would it be possible to get the information?


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Will the minister give me the information?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, government arsenals carry on work as it is given to them. Last year the arsenals system did work to a value of about $80 million, and the year before to a value of about $75 million.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: That has nothing to do with my question.


John Horace Dickey: Yes, it has.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, if a certain line is running in the month of December, the men are working on that line. If it is not running in the month of December the men may be laid off temporarily. I do not think any man could possibly compile an employment statement for Quebec arsenals since 1951. I could not do it, anyway.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: The minister does not receive any report on these arsenals?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, not that kind of report.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Oh. I shall note the answer the minister just gave me.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Fine.
(Translation) :


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, the situation of arsenals throughout Canada seems to be just about normal except in and around Quebec city. Merely for the information of the hon. minister, I take the liberty of telling him that, since last fall, more than 2,000 employees of our arsenals have been let out and, as a result, the already alarming unemployment situation in and around Quebec city has become even worse.
When I directed questions about this to the minister and to his parliamentary assistant, the minister told us that there would necessarily be dismissals at the Valcartier and Quebec arsenals because there were no contracts. I could not help wishing, at the time, that more contracts were to be had. Then again, I indicated to the minister that, since the government has managed to get
Supply-Defence Production millions in profits out of the Quebec and Valcartier arsenals, I failed to see why those millions could not be used to transform those war plants into peacetime industries.
During the last war, billions of dollars were spent on the production of armaments; today, when there seems to be a willingness to walk, haltingly perhaps but none the less surely, along the road to peace-a peace for which everyone is yearning-we are told of a lack of contracts. I do not see why this should not be a proper time to make use of those profits which have been accumulated, and to convert those war plants into peace plants, and, at the same time, answering the needs of our population by supplying Canadians with jobs.
Mr. Chairman, on the 1st of June last, speaking on behalf of a substantial number of electors from the riding I have the honour to represent here as well as from surrounding constituencies, I urged the hon. minister to institute, if not a royal investigation, at least a judicial inquiry on certain irregularities which are taking place at the two arsenals I have already mentioned, that is Quebec and Valcartier, where a substantial amount of goods are being filched and used to the personal advantage of a few people.


Jean Lesage: Would the hon. member permit a question?


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Certainly.


Jean Lesage: Has the hon. member any definite information about the misappropriations just referred to?


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the hon. minister I might say that, for some time, I have been meeting a large number of people who have had jobs, or still have jobs, at the arsenals. I have in my office voluminous correspondence on the subject. In fact, I have been provided with names. But it will be admitted, surely, that I am no government detective and that it is no business of mine to investigate the matter.
I now demand what I have already demanded as a member from Quebec city, a serious investigation of certain irregularities which, I repeat, have taken place and are still going on daily in the arsenals at Quebec and Valcartier. That request of mine was made on June 1. Although we have now reached the 15th of July nothing has been done. And I keep receiving letters asking what the government intends to do and requesting that I speak on behalf of the honest people of the city of Quebec-
6224	HOUSE OF
Supply-Defence Production


Mr. Gour (Russell):: We are just as honest as they are.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: -in asking the government to lose no time in launching the necessary investigation at those various arsenals.


Jean Lesage: Would the hon. member permit another question?


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Certainly.


Jean Lesage: Does not the hon. member feel that duty commands him to communicate the information in his possession to the proper authorities, rather than attempt to make political capital out of such a matter?


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Mr. Chairman, I have no need for political capital. My only way of making political capital is to keep fulfilling the mandate entrusted to me by the electors of Quebec West, as I have been doing since August 10, 1953. The hon. Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (Mr. Lesage) will need it more than I will, come next elections, for the smell from Montmagny-L'lslet is none too good.


Jean Lesage: This is to be expected, if you have just been there.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: No, Mr. Chairman; but it must be admitted that, the hon. minister having been there for a number of years, the smell has deteriorated.
Mr. Chairman, I urged an investigation-
The hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Roy) seems to be enjoying himself very much; he had not put in an appearance in the house for quite some time-


Mr. Gauthier (Nickel Belt):: He had gone out for a "quick one".


Joseph-Omer Gour: He is here as often as you are.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: You will learn next week why I was away last week.
Mr. Chairman, once again I ask for the inquiry which I requested on the 1st of June last. I repeat that the investigation has been requested a month and a half ago already and, as usual, the government turns a deaf ear. Goods are still being taken out of the arsenals at Valcartier and Quebec and honest people who have nothing to do with the matter are being suspected while, if the matter was fully investigated, certain big shots would have to account for those irregulari-


ties. But, as we know, the little fellows are the victims of certain authorities.
Mr. Chairman, that is the only matter I wanted to bring up in connection with this item on Canadian Arsenals. I hope that the government will proceed without delay with the necessary investigation and will, if necessary, hire the detectives mentioned by the hon. Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources. Personally, I am a representative of the people and I act as one. I would like to see, on the other side of the house, at least a few with enough courage to do as much.
(Text):
I should like to ask the minister another question under the construction item. We have not reached it yet; it is the next item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be very glad to answer that.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Does resolution 90 carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I suggest to the minister that the request of my colleague for figures on employment is reasonable, particularly by reason of what is in this last report of Canadian Arsenals which we have before us, and which under the heading of "personnel" gives the employment as at March 31 last.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say, Mr. Chairman, that I have sent out for the information and I hope to have it presently. Item agreed to.
Canadian Arsenals Limited-
91.	Construction, improvements and new equipment, $4,535,558.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Can the minister tell me what amount is expected to be spent at Valcartier and Quebec arsenals under this item? Does he have the figures?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amount is $1,950,000.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Is that on construction or equipment?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Construction and equipment, both.


J.-Wilfrid Dufresne: Can the minister give me some explanation regarding the construction?
I am not asking for all the details, but just roughly what is being done and what is to be done?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is part of a long-term program of expanding and in proving the arsenals facilities in the province of Quebec.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: That completes the Department of Defence Production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, with the unanimous consent of the committee I would like to revert to item 544 as found on page 81 of the blue book under the title "Loans, Investments and Advances". This morning when the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce were being discussed, I undertook to reduce this item by $200,000 and the suggestion was made that the item be dropped entirely. Since this appeared to have the same effect, I agreed to have the item dropped.
Subsequently, by unanimous consent of the committee, the item was withdrawn. I should like to have the wording of the item reinstated and the amount of money reduced to $1.
By way of explanation, I would point out that on page 529, in providing for the Canadian international trade fair, hon. members will observe that whereas last year an amount of $876,600 was requested only $275,000 was requested this year. It is necessary to use the revenue from the 1955 trade fair to pay for the 1955 trade fair. Hence the wording as recorded on page 81 is required as the statutory authority for this purpose.
I therefore recommend that, with unanimous consent of the committee, item No. 544 be reinstated and the amount of money reduced from $200,000 to $1.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Is the request of the minister that item 544 be reinstated and reduced to $1 agreed to?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Loans, investments and advances-
544. To authorize, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, a special operating account in the consolidated revenue fund to which shall be charged expenditures incurred in respect of the Canadian international trade fair and to which shall be credited all monies received in connection with the operations of the fair, the excess of the amounts charged over the amounts credited to the account at any time not to exceed, $1.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
245. Departmental administration, $1,246,846.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: This item may be found on page 45 of the main estimates.


Mr. Blair:: Mr. Chairman, I intend at this time to confine my remarks on this administration item to the work of the world health 50433-394
Supply-Health and Welfare organization, as there is no item on the list which seems particularly suited to a discussion of this matter. Since my return from a meeting of the assembly I have been asked frequently by members of this house for information regarding this great world organization, and I was surprised that generally speaking so little was known about an organization which is doing such outstanding work in the field of world health in combating disease. The eighth assembly of the world health organization met this year in Mexico City, and I was honoured by being appointed by the Canadian government to the Canadian delegation attending the assembly.
I shall attempt to give a short history of the origin of the world health organization. In August, 1946, Canada became the third nation to ratify the constitution. The other nations to ratify the constitution earlier than Canada were China and the United Kingdom. Their representatives were authorized to accept with parliamentary approval. In the following year, by April 7, 1948, the required number of ratifications were secured and the world health organization became a reality. The first world health assembly convened in Geneva.
Some 26 nations had ratified the constitution by 1948, and now the membership has grown to 84 countries. It is unfortunate that China and nine states in eastern Europe have ceased to participate in this great work, but in the regions of North America and South America 21 countries are members. On August 6, 1946, the Canadian parliament approved the constitution, which was signed at New York on July 22, 1946. The resolution of approval was introduced by the then prime minister, and I had the pleasure on behalf of the official opposition of stating the approval of our party. I believed at that time, as I do now-after attending the assembly in Mexico City I am more than ever of the same feeling-that this was a forward step we were taking toward a great ideal whereby we could obtain the good will and confidence of other nations whose standards of health were not as high as those in this country, and who had to cope with problems peculiar to their own areas or geographical positions.
I have looked back and reread with satisfaction parts of the speech I made at that time, nine years ago. After having had the opportunity of attending one of these great assemblies I am even more convinced that the words I used at that time were fitting. I am going to quote from page 4352 of Hansard of August 6, 1946, the words I uttered when this resolution was before the

Supply-Health and Welfare house. If I were making a speech this afternoon and were in the same position in which I was then, I would use identically the same words. At that time I said:
There should be no economic or geographic boundaries in equality of opportunity for medical care. The aims of the science of healing should be international and the same over all the world. Canada must take her place along with similar organizations in other nations in preventing wars and giving adequate health services to all people. The present is an opportune time to form an international organization whose first object is to give better health and medical services to all people. Millions of the people of the world are suffering physically and mentally as a result of the war. A united nations health organization would provide much toward the welfare and future happiness of mankind. Now that military victory in Europe has been achieved, peace will bring many difficult problems for solution. We can best solve these problems and reach a better understanding by the relief of suffering.
I closed my speech at that time by using the following words:
The extent of co-operation outlined in the resolution is of such magnitude that it is difficult to believe. But one fact is outstanding, that in the present troubled state of the peoples of the world, more will be accomplished by the world health organization to promote peace and good will than by any other agency in the power of the nations. Ignorance and prejudices will be broken down by healing the sufferings of humanity. During the war we glibly talked of the new world to be built after victory. Let us build that new world by a combined effort to eliminate disease and misery. I appeal to the members of the Canadian parliament to support this resolution unanimously.
At that time we all had high hopes that nine years from that time we would be living in a peaceful world, but as time has passed we find ourselves living in a period of uncertainty. However, in so far as this organization is concerned, I feel that in view of the accomplishments it has achieved it is still a great power, and that we should continue to carry on this work by cultivating the spirit of co-operation among all peoples in an effort to banish disease and misery.
The Canadian delegation to the eighth world assembly was headed by Dr. P. E. Moore, director of Indian health services of the Department of National Health and Welfare. Dr. O. H. Curtis, chief medical officer of the province of Prince Edward Island; Mr. M. G. Clark, of the Department of Finance; Mr. T. J. Giles of the Department of National Health and Welfare as secretary; Dr. G. Roy, member of parliament for Labelle and Mr. Allen Anderson of the Canadian embassy in Mexico City were attached to the delegation.
At this point I would like to pay tribute to the civil servants who were part of the delegation. Dr. Moore was elected chairman of the administration, finance and legal committee, one of the two main committees of

the assembly and possibly the most important. In this position he accomplished outstanding work, as at times he had to deal with most difficult decisions. Mr. Clark, from the Department of Finance, was outstanding in the field of finance, particularly in regard to the Canadian position. As secretary Mr. Giles was highly capable, conscientious and efficient. Mr. A. Anderson of the Canadian embassy staff and the Canadian ambassador did everything possible in the way of help and guidance to the delegation.
In paying tribute to these gentlemen I might remark that so long as Canada has civil servants of the type attached to the delegation, matters of this kind are in highly capable hands.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
William Gourlay Blair: Mr. Chairman, when the committee adjourned for the dinner recess I was discussing the eighth world health assembly at Mexico City. For the information of hon. members I might give something of the history and objectives of the world health organization.
The interim commission at the inception of the world health organization recommended to the first assembly that malaria, tuberculosis, venereal diseases, and maternal and child welfare be given priority. When the assembly met it sanctioned these projects and added two more, namely nutrition and sanitation.
When the organization was first formed there were health problems which had arisen from the second world war, demanding some immediate action for which governments had asked assistance. Later government requests moved from these priorities towards assistance in a broad range of activities for the betterment of health.
The general program of work falls into two classes: international services on behalf of all governments of the world, and advisory services to individual governments or groups of governments. It provides health services of a character which could be carried on only by an international agency; (a) it develops, supervises and revises international sanitary regulations which govern international quarantine procedures; (b) it provides on a day to day basis radio information concerning communicable diseases to governments and others directly concerned.

It brings together and finalizes world epidemiological information and statistics on health matters. In this connection it prepares epidemiological reports on health problems and trends. It develops standard methods and regulations regarding health statistics. In the field of treatment it provides governments with information on the purity and composition of drugs, antibiotics and vaccines. It distributes information for the operation and improvement of health services, training and research institutions. Advice is provided by a panel of experts.
I cannot begin to give you an account of all of the activities of the world health organization with regard to the many diseases that are under their consideration and control, but I should like to take the one problem of malaria as an example. I give as an example of the work accomplished by this organization the program for the prevention and the eradication of malaria throughout the world. This disease was one of the first chosen for attack, and the world health organization is assisting in campaigns for its control in many countries throughout the world. These figures are startling.
It is not generally known that malaria kills 3 million people a year, and that another 300 million of the world's people acquire the disease. One must realize that a disease with 300 million victims a year and a mortality rate of 3 million creates a problem which cannot be ignored, and help must be furnished at all costs.
Since the discovery of D.D.T. and other modern insecticides it has been possible to deal with the problem of malaria on a large scale, and the cost has been small in comparison with the magnitude of the work. I want to emphasize this fact. It can now be stated that 230 million people out of the 600 million in the world who are exposed to the risk of malaria are now living in protected areas. Certain wide areas in the Americas, Europe and Asia, have been cleared of malaria by D.D.T. residual spray. Wide malaria control projects are well advanced in countries where this was formerly a problem, such as Argentina, Brazil, British and French Guiana, Ecuador, Nicaragua, the United States, Venezuela, Cyprus, Greece, Italy, Turkey, Yugoslavia, Ceylon, India, Iran, Lebanon, Philippines, Thailand, Madagascar and the Union of South Africa.
The disease, of course, is carried by certain types of mosquitos, and it has been shown that by residual spraying D.D.T. will kill the malaria mosquito of any community, season after season, for at least six years. In Ceylon, where malaria has existed for centuries, it had become a disastrous epidemic 50433-394J
Supply-Health and Welfare in 1934. Out of a population of 5-6 million in 1936, which was not an epidemic year, there were 2-9 million cases, almost half the population. The morbidity rate was 523 per thousand. A residual spraying project was started in 1946-47 and where there were 2-8 million cases in 1946, with the morbidity rate per thousand of 413, in 1954 there were only 29,450 cases in a population of 8-3 million, or a rate of only 3-5 per thousand since the control became effective. The government of the country has reclaimed and brought under irrigation more than 206 square miles which were formerly uninhabitable due to malaria.
A point to be noted is that on the 206 square miles. 91,000 landless people have been established and live in comparative safety. Ceylon has now increased its rice crop by 50 per cent and over, and a million people have been resettled in fertile areas which were previously uninhabitable. Large areas are free of the disease, and spraying has been stopped. Routine spraying in some of these areas will be necessary for at least four years. A special organization for nation-wide reduction of malaria could probably continue for ten years, and at the end of that time, if such reduction has been achieved, these specially trained personnel will be available to attack other health problems.
The annual cost of the malaria reduction program by D.D.T. residual spraying varies from a per capita average of 11 cents in southeast Asia to 46 cents in the Americas. These costs will decline as the necessity for spraying is reduced, and the maintenance cost will be much less than that of an active reduction program. However, the program must be accelerated owing to the fact that the mosquito becomes resistant to D.D.T. if the attack is prolonged, and reduction would be costly and often impossible after this occurs.
It is therefore to be clearly seen that malaria eradication should be implemented as rapidly as possible. In this connection I might point out that it is considered by the authorities that the malaria mosquito becomes immune to D.D.T. spraying within a period of six years.
I have given as an example the work of the world health organization in dealing with malaria, and the great reduction in death rates in those countries where the program has been carried out. Diseases such as yaws, smallpox, trachoma, yellow fever and plague are now being definitely brought under control, while other diseases such as tuberculosis are receding. As in the case of malaria the reduction in the number of cases of this disease has resulted in increased production of food and hence improvement in the general health or the people.

Supply-Health and Welfare
We must not forget the work that is being done in maternal and child health, health education, nutrition, sanitary regulations, standardization of biological products, and the very important matter of the interchange of scientific information. I must mention the fact that for technical advisory service $309,000 additional is required.
The world health assembly has under consideration new responsibilities with regard to atomic energy in relation to medicine and public health. This falls into two main subjects: (1) the general problem of protection against radiation from the public health point of view; and (2) the international aspects of the problems of training medical and public health personnel, and questions relating to atomic energy and the use of radioactive substances.
In the near future it is more or less certain that it will be necessary to analyse and condense the scientific material presented by experts in the field of health in foreign countries on these two questions, whether it be as to the use of radioisotopes for research, diagnosis or treatment, or on the problems of protection. Recent developments in these fields will make it necessary that the peaceful uses of atomic energy must be fully considered as part of the work of the world health organization. While the world health organization may well be proud of the work that has been accomplished to this date, we must not forget the other organizations doing similar work. Although health is the concern of the world health organization, I should also like to mention organizations like the food and agriculture organization, the international labour organization, UNESCO and UNICEF. All these organizations are working in cooperation for a better future for mankind.
On the financial side of the picture the budget of the world health organization is approximately $10 million, but I would point out that in 1954 assistance was given by this organization to more than 300 health projects. Canada's share of this budget is $300,000. It may possibly be of interest to know that apart from the fact that Canada was the third nation to sign, there are 44 Canadians, of whom 31 are nurses, working in many parts of the world for the organization. It might also be useful to point out that salary increases cannot be avoided, and the effect of this relatively stabilized budget actually means a reduction of the activities in the field.
The director general presented to the assembly information and cost estimates with respect to additional field project requests from countries amounting to $2,500,000, which have not been included in the first proposals for the year 1956.

Regarding the scale of estimates, the essential points are that the United Nations scale as adjusted to world health organization membership was adopted at the assembly, and the assessments are to be calculated on the basis of active participation of members. The principle that no member should pay a larger per capita share than the largest contributor was also retained. However, due to the fact that these changes would substantially affect the contributions of a number of members, implementation of the decisions is to take place progressively over a four-year period.
Canada regarded the preservation of the per capita contribution principle as a matter of considerable importance, and the Canadian delegation played an effective role in the working party which was established to deal with the whole assessment problem. While on this subject I might mention the excellent work done by our financial adviser, Mr. M. G. Clark of the Department of Finance.
Membership of the organization has grown from the 26 states which ratified the constitution in April, 1948, to 84 countries. I mention again that it is unfortunate that China and nine states in eastern Europe have ceased participation in this work. However, there is no doubt that in the future the organization will continue to grow in keeping with article I of the constitution, which is in these words:
The objective of the world health organization shall be attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health.
I feel that this is a matter that should interest every party in the house. It has no place in the political ideas of any party, but represents the united efforts of Canada to take part in a world organization which is doing such great work among the peoples of the world. I am sorry that in the time at my disposal I could not present the larger picture, but I wish to assure members of the house that this money is being well spent and that our contribution is accomplishing much for the welfare of the peoples of the world.
Having completed my account of the world health organization assembly, there are a few matters with which I wish to deal on the administration item of the department. One concerns a question prominently in our minds, the Salk serum for poliomyelitis. In this regard may I say that we in Canada are fortunate. We have seen co-operation and care and a combined effort on the part of the provincial governments and the Department of National Health and Welfare to produce a serum for that dread disease which instils terror in every mother and father.

In the initial work in the experimental stage the province of Ontario contributed the services of the Connaught laboratories. We should be proud of the research ability of our scientific people. We are proud of the care that was taken at the Connaught laboratories in the production of a serum that was safe.
So far as the Department of National Health and Welfare is concerned, I must say that this matter was well handled. When we were in Mexico we received reports of the first inoculations with the serum in places other than Canada, and we were fearful of some of the results. When we found later that the provincial departments of health and the Department of National Health and Welfare had checked and double-checked and produced for the use of the children of Canada a serum that was safe, we were proud of our people in Canada and the job they had done in this regard.
I do wish to point out that the Connaught laboratories played a large part in the initial production of the vaccine through the production of medium 199, and from there on the various departments of health and the Department of National Health and Welfare saw to it that a product that was safe was produced for administration to our children. Therefore Canadian mothers and fathers can look with a great deal of satisfaction on the co-operation and care displayed in producing a safe serum.
I hope that in the discussion of the estimates of this department nothing will be said in criticism of that program that might lead the mothers and fathers of young children to have any doubt about the use or efficacy of the serum as a preventive agent with respect to a disease that formerly, as I said, struck terror into their hearts.
On looking over the casualty lists, if I may call them that, the lists of causes of death for the past year, I again note that heart conditions and cardiovascular disease stand very high, along with cancer. It is to be expected, now that man's span of life has been extended, that the percentages for these two causes of death would grow. One might put it this way. There is a time limit on age, and people will ultimately die of some cause. What usually breaks down is the cardiovascular system. We must realize also that the increased percentage of cancer does not mean the disease is increasing. As a result of longer life we may have more cases of that disease, and with better systems of diagnosis we probably find more cases.
I again make my appeal to the minister that having seen what can be accomplished
Supply-Health and Welfare by the Salk vaccine, and with our pride in Canadian scientists and their ability, every worthy project in the line of investigation or research into cancer or coronary trouble with which the minister comes in contact should be given every incentive. I feel that Canadian scientists have shown an ability to cope with these things, and I feel they may be among the first to discover a cure for these diseases.
Speaking of the causes of death-and this one does not apply to the minister's department but I mentioned it last year-I believe this government and this house could do something to cut down the increasing number of highway accidents which are listed as one of the causes of death. If anything can be done through pressure on the government or even through legislation passed in this house to cut down this cause of death, we should certainly do it.
I have brought the need for beds for chronic invalids to the minister's attention before. Many of these chronic invalids are old people, and I assure the minister it is most difficult now to obtain beds for people with chronic disease. You find these people in the wards of the hospitals where they must receive care, but at the same time beds are being filled that might well be used for acute cases.
I mention these other matters very briefly. There is the question of the shortage of nurses that has been before us for years. That shortage usually amounts to 10,000 to 12,000. Every incentive should be given to induce young women to go into this profession. We do need nurses to staff our hospitals if we are going to give people adequate care.
In closing, sir, I wish to mention the increasing incidence of mental disease. I point out again that more beds are occupied by these unfortunate people alone than are occupied by those suffering from any other form of disease. Unfortunately the incidence of this disease is increasing. Everything should be done to help in the establishment of psychiatric wards in our big city hospitals where these people may be treated on a short-term basis without sending them to the mental institutions. I think this is essential, because treatment in the beginning is very important. I might mention also the shortage of trained personnel, psychiatrists and male and female nurses who are trained in psychiatric nursing. I believe this is one of the greatest problems that is facing us at the present time.
Possibly we may have a further discussion when this matter comes up in connection with other items of the estimates. I am pointing this out to the minister as one of the matters that we should consider very seriously. When
6230	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare we are going over the detailed items probably I will have some further remarks to make.


Major James William Coldwell: When these estimates are before us the hon. member who has just taken his seat always brings before the committee some worth-while considerations as to why this country should support, not only within our own borders but beyond, all those measures which will assist in alleviating suffering and sickness everywhere in the world. I am very happy to congratulate him on the excellent presentation he made tonight.
As the minister and the house know, if there is one thing I hope to see done during my time in the parliament of Canada it is the enactment of legislation setting up in this country a national health plan which will give every Canadian an opportunity to receive the very best of medical and hospital care without individual payment. I say "without individual payment" because I know these services will have to be paid for when we set them up. Of course in an economy of any type there is nothing that is free, in the sense that sometimes the term is used.
A short time ago I was disappointed to read in several of our newspapers a Canadian Press dispatch which quoted the Minister of National Health and Welfare as having said at the meeting of the British and Canadian medical associations that the national health service in Canada, which likely would be based on contributory prepayments-I am not commenting on that at the moment-must be founded upon the mutual agreement of all the provinces which, up to the present, has not been forthcoming. It seems to me that is introducing into the discussions we have had on this subject from time to time a new and rather disappointing factor. All provinces must, first of all, agree. It is said, of course, that some of the provinces are opposed to such a plan. I do not know of any province that is opposed to the plan.
Two or three days later, in the Montreal Gazette, I read a statement made by Dr. Jean Gregoire before the Quebec Catholic hospital committee in Montreal. After reading it I wondered if, after all, the province which is sometimes said to be lagging behind in this field is not likely to push forward and prod the federal government into doing something which it included in its 1919 platform, some 36 years ago, and which has not yet been implemented. Dr. Gregoire said that current hospital costs and convalescence were beyond the economic reach of 80 per cent of the patients. He went on to say that


this statement came as a surprise to many. He was quoted directly as follows:
"Our hospitals are numerous and modern, our doctors competent and able, our surgeons outstanding," he said. "But the rising cost of hospitalization is reaching a level where it is beyond the capacity of 80 per cent of the patients to pay." He attributed the situation to the constantly rising cost of hospitalization.
He went on to say this:
It is all very well for us to advocate having large families. But when it comes to paying $400 to deliver a child we are bound to ask ourselves whether the expression "social medicine" can be used and still retain a sense of consistency.
Of course we all know that young people raising families today are faced with costs about the same as the doctor mentioned in the province of Quebec. I see one or two of the younger members in the house nodding their heads in support of that statement. That probably is one of the reasons we have seen a decline in the birth rate and in larger families, particularly among the group of people who sometimes are described as the middle group in our society.
I want to say to the minister that we of the C.C.F. will support every measure and every move in the direction of a national health program. I say with some pride that in Mr. J. S. Woodsworth, who preceded me as leader of this movement and who was one of those who founded it, we had one who to a very large degree-and I am not going to say more than that in the house, because I do not want to raise any arguments-promoted old age pensions in this country. I think we can claim that we took the lead in popularizing across the country other social security measures such as unemployment insurance, disability pensions, pensions for the blind and so on. And, while I am quite willing to give a government which enacts the legislation after it is popularized credit for enacting it, I now wish to see our social security system in this country rounded out by what I believe to be the most necessary piece of legislation yet to come. I refer to a national health plan such as I outlined at the beginning of these remarks.
I am happy that in my own province of Saskatchewan the C.C.F. government has done much to promote a national health plan, because of the example it has set within its own borders. In that province hospitalization is available to all residents without individual payment of the bills. Care of the mentally ill and mentally deficient is free. Cancer, whether curable or incurable, is treated surgically and hospitalized free of charge under the hospitalization plan. Treatment in the anti-tuberculosis hospitals is free; and I am not giving credit to the government of Saskatchewan for that, because I know full well

that that was started many years ago by the anti-tuberculosis league in that province. When someone asks how many years ago that was, I think perhaps it was more than 40 years ago. Even when I was a member of the Regina city council I remember fighting in that council to join the anti-tuberculosis urban pool for the treatment of tuberculosis, and subsequently a few years later that developed into the free treatment of that disease.
Dr. Ferguson, who has played such a very important part in the establishment of the anti-tuberculosis sanatoria in that province, told me some years ago that the day would come when in Saskatchewan-and he thought perhaps one day in Canada-these fine sanatoria we have built for the treatment of tuberculosis would become merely rest homes, because the dread disease would be eliminated from our midst.
So I say the time has come when the Minister of National Health and Welfare should fight within the government for, and in turn the government should come before the House of Commons with, a bill designed to provide this country with a national plan to meet the health needs of all our people, regardless of their economic circumstances.
I say to the minister we do not have to wait for all the provinces. Has he forgotten that that other piece of social legislation for which the government takes such great credit, old age pensions, did not wait for all the provinces to come under the plan? When that bill was introduced in 1926, and placed on the statute books in 1927, it provided that as the provinces were willing to come in and participate in the cost, old age pensions would be instituted in those provinces. That began in 1927, and it was not until 1936 that the last province, namely the province of Quebec, came under the old age pension plan.
Who is there today who would detract from that plan which has been progressively improved by the elimination of the means test for those over 70, and by granting pensions with the means test to those who need them between the ages of 65 and 69, as well as to blind pensioners and disability pensioners?
I say the need for a national health plan in this country is great. Dr. Gregoire indicated that very clearly in his remarks. The private insurance plans we have are both insufficient and inefficient. They do not cover enough people, and they do not carry the coverage long enough. Not only do they fail to give sufficient coverage to a large number
Supply-Health and Welfare of people in the country, but one of the features of many of these private plans is that they can be discontinued when they are most needed.
Some little time ago I received a letter from a man in which he enclosed a letter written to him by one of these insurance companies. He had been paying premiums on an accident and sickness policy since 1924. In the whole of the insured period of 30 years he had made one claim amounting to only $3. Then in 1954 he retired from work, upon reaching the retirement age of 65 years. This is a copy of the letter he received:
Dear Mr. X:
Re: Policy No. -
I am leaving out names and numbers.
Upon referring to our records we find it necessary to advise you that we will be unable to accept further renewal premiums on this policy. We sincerely regret the necessity of this action, and wish to take this opportunity to thank you for your past business.
With best wishes, we remain.
Yours very truly
I know of a member in the House of Commons-a young man who at the time was in his early forties-who fell ill. This young man had a policy and was hospitalized. When the time came for renewal of the policy such renewal was refused, though I must add that when he wrote to them again on House of Commons notepaper he was told that a clerical error had been made, with the result that I believe the policy is still in effect. I say these private health insurance plans are not satisfactory because a man may pay for 30 years, during which time he may have no claim or, as in this instance, a claim of only $3; yet at the end of 30 years he is told, "Your medical history is such that we cannot continue your policy." And he is out. I say that only a comprehensive national health plan available to all our people can possibly meet the needs of Canadians at the present time.
Until very recently much of the propaganda in Canada against such a plan was based on the alleged deficiencies in the British plan. I refer to the plan which was put on the statute books in Great Britain by the Labour government when it was in power, the British national health service. The best answer to these distortions was given quite recently, in June of this year, when British doctors attended a conference of medical men in Toronto. I read in the newspapers that there were 3,000 delegates in the Royal York hotel ballroom to hear British medical men express their views on the British health plan.
These expressions of views were noteworthy, for before the service was inaugurated I venture to say an overwhelming

Supply-Health and Welfare number of the medical profession in Britain were against it. The Canadian Press reported, one, that British doctors have full clinical freedom; two, the British medical profession has progressed under the state-run health service. Many medical men testified that the family doctor has preserved his independence, that the relationship between doctor and patient has been maintained or even improved.
Dr. H. A. Clegg, who holds the very influential position of editor of the British Medical Association's journal, stated this:
No thoughtful British doctor would think for one moment of abandoning the national health service.
In answer to a critic who said the British doctors had lost prestige, Dr. Clegg declared this according to the newspaper reports, and it is also in quotation marks:
"That is a completely misleading and a highly-biased statement by someone who has a deeply-rooted prejudice against a national health service."
These remarks among many indicate on the whole that the British plan, from the point of view of those who opposed it originally, is a success. All agreed that improvements are being made and will continue to be made. But the plan has been tried, tested and found useful, successful and beneficial.
I may say that this confirms my own personal opinion formed during a prolonged visit to Britain last year and in 1948. In 1948 there was a great deal of misinformation in Britain itself as to what was being done. Six years later it was not only understood but warmly approved by people of all types and all social levels.
I think it is appalling that in this day and age many thousands of Canadians fear the costs both of consulting a doctor and particularly of undergoing hospital treatment, when it might be most beneficial. May I say that medical costs and costs of consulting a doctor have just increased. I am not criticizing that. Everything else has gone up, and the medical profession is entitled to its fees. But I say that these fees which are now in effect cannot be paid, as Dr. Gregoire said, by 80 per cent of the people of this country, and the time has come when we have to face up to the situation.
I know it is said the cost will be great. Well, the last estimate I heard of the costs was very much higher than it was in 1945, of course. I think the minister said last year it was something in excess of $600 million, but today the bureau of statistics tells us that the Canadian people are expending $675 million.


Mr. Martin:: It is $840 million.


Major James William Coldwell: I had not seen that last figure.


Mr. Marlin:: The hon. member is correct. The figure I gave in 1951 was brought up to date a few days ago, and it is now $840 million.


Major James William Coldwell: All right. Of course if that is true, then we have to increase correspondingly the amount of $675 million that I have just given. If the Canadian people were spending that amount, they will be spending at least as much as the cost of the health plan today, and getting very inadequate service for it. Yet if we have full coverage for everybody, even if it costs $1 billion, I want to say that we quite willingly appropriate an average of $2 billion a year for national defence. I am not denying that has been necessary, but I am saying that the best form of defence this country or any other country can have is a healthy and vigorous population. We found in the last war that when young men came to volunteer for service overseas over 50 per cent were turned down because they were not physically up to the standards required for overseas service in the first part of the war. Therefore I say it is the best means of defence.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I know the hon. member wants to be fair. I did not want to interrupt him earlier. I just want him to know that the statement he referred to in the quotation from the paper is one I have since twice denied. I never said it was necessary to have all the provinces.


Major James William Coldwell: I am very glad to hear that, because I was quoting from the Globe and Mail.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Major James William Coldwell: But I have also a similar quotation from the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix. That is a Canadian Press dispatch. So you see the two papers, one with its staff correspondents there and the other using a Canadian Press dispatch, both quoted the minister to the same effect. I am very happy to have his denial, because it will help materially to dissipate the idea that we have to wait until the last of the most backward of the provinces comes into the field of health insurance.
I mentioned Saskatchewan. I could have mentioned Alberta and British Columbia which, of course, also have plans for hospitalization covering in one way or another the people of those provinces. And even under the former commission government in Newfoundland they had a plan, though I believe it

was quite inadequate. But there are four provinces with at least a start on a national health plan.
I was surprised to read that the Liberal party in the province of Ontario, the province which I hoped would be the next to fall in line-though perhaps Manitoba next and then Ontario-was against a national health plan. I have always believed that if one of the two big provinces came in we would have a very good chance of having a national plan put into effect federally by the government of Canada. But I noticed that a panel discussion at the Ontario Liberal convention agreed unanimously that any form of government health insurance would be undesirable at best, dangerous at worst. The minister is an Ontario member and is a member of the Ontario Liberal party. He should do his level best to educate the Liberals of the province of Ontario to the need for a comprehensive national health plan. I read the following from the Globe and Mail:
"It is the responsibility of everyone individually to look after his own needs," declared one participant, voicing what seemed the majority opinion.
"If a person has somebody else looking after his costs for health protection or anything else," he added, "it is a very dangerous thing."
I am not going to quote all of this. The moderator of the panel, of course, was Professor Marcus Long of the University of Toronto, who is chairman of the Ontario Liberal association policy committee. Somebody asked, "Who picked this panel?" Dr. Watson, not Dr. Watson of Sherlock Holmes fame but Dr. Watson of Toronto, the founder of the Physicians' Services Incorporated plan for medical care, had this to say:
Under a national scheme people are liable to stand in a line of 50 and wait all day.
Where does he get that idea? Then Mr. Livingstone referred to Britain's nationalized health services, "where protection is available on a so-called free basis." "I am emphatically opposed," he said. The report continues:
There are not the same conditions in Canada, so we don't need so drastic a scheme.
No, there are not the same conditions today in this country as in Great Britain. Only to a degree were they ever the same, because in the British Isles there was always available to the very poor the voluntary hospitals that have been in existence for over a century, and for the well to do, of course, nursing homes. As a matter of fact the people who benefit most and would benefit most in this country from such a plan are the
Supply-Health and Welfare people in the middle income brackets, the people who cannot afford a serious illness. The report continues:
If government absorbed the full cost of a medical scheme, Mr. McLachlin said, it would take the initiative away from the people involved. It would just be a dictatorship.
Will anyone dare to say in this house that the British people are under a dictatorship? Well, we in Canada are free, thank God, from dictatorships; but if I wanted to make comparisons I would say no freer people exist in the world than the people of Great Britain.
So it went on. I could go on and quote other statements to the same effect. So I say to the minister it is about time the Ontario Liberal association did some work among its own members to educate them as to what such a plan would mean to the people of Canada.
I said a few moments ago that at the recent conference in Toronto many of these arguments had been exploded by doctors who in the initial stages were opposed to the national health plan in Britain. Here is one family doctor, a general practitioner, Dr. E. A. Gregg, who said he spoke for Britain's family doctors who number almost 20,000. This newspaper report reads:
"I can honestly say to you that we have kept our full clinical freedom and that we remain free from any 'parish' pump local political control".
The British family doctor has preserved his independence because. Dr. Gregg said, he has accepted wide administrative responsibility.
Then Mr. Rowland Hill, chairman of the central consultants' and specialists' committee of the British Medical Association, is reported as follows:
Mr. Hill said the British specialist, despite his early fears, today enjoys a "warm" relationship with high government administrators. "His sense of confidence has actually increased, and he hopes and anticipates that his influence in the future also will increase."
British doctors, he said, are "not in any way downcast, but are finding present conditions definitely stimulating. A note of optimism and of confident progress is to be heard more loudly than for many years in Britain."
That is testimony as to the national plan which was inaugurated in Britain. I have reports of statement after statement made by doctors from Britain at that conference approving of the plan in effect there. What I am suggesting to the house and the minister is that the time has come when we should be putting into effect in this country a comprehensive plan to cover all our people regardless of their economic or social status.
I have met people who have been in Britain in recent days and have had service in the hospitals there. As hon. gentlemen may know, when you go to Britain for a visit and anything happens to you they

Supply-Health and Welfare accord to you all the facilities of the British health plan. If you are taken ill you can go to one of their hospitals; you can get medical or surgical or dental care, or optical care if necessary. The visitor to Britain is not asked to pay any bills.
I may say that when I visited Britain in 1948 I was presented with a yellow card and told that should I require medical attention I would be given free treatment if I presented the card. Subsequently I met the then British minister of health, Right Hon. Aneurin Bevan, and I said to him, "This is a strange idea, that you should accord these facilities without payment to visitors to Britain." He said to me with a smile, "Don't you think it is a nice welcome to the country? Don't you think it would be very nice if you fell ill and then went back to Canada with a memory perhaps of hospitality and courtesy?" I said, "Yes, that is all very well; but most of the people who come to Great Britain for a holiday could also afford to pay their bills." With a laugh he said, "As a matter of fact we went into that thoroughly and found that it would be much more expensive to set up the administrative machinery, print the forms and all the rest of it, distribute them to the hospitals and then engage in the collection of fees. We found it was more economical to give the service free and we are giving it free."
I know of a well-to-do gentleman who was taken ill while in Britain and sent to one of their hospitals. He did not realize that he would not get a bill. He said he had never had better hospital and medical treatment in his life than he got in that London hospital, and there was nothing for him to pay. I am not pleading that we should do that kind of thing for our visitors to Canada, but I am trying to show that the plan which was inaugurated over there is successful, and that every other democratic and progressive country in the world except Canada and the United States has some sort of national health plan.


Murdo William Martin: Federal states.


Major James William Coldwell: Is not Switzerland a federal state?


Murdo William Martin: Yes.


Major James William Coldwell: That was not a barrier in Switzerland.


Murdo William Martin: It was a difficult barrier for a long time.


Major James William Coldwell: May I say to the minister and the government that they have had 36 years since this was promised to get over that barrier. Not only is it long past the time when the government should be attempting


to remove any barriers; we should be having this measure before the House of Commons and adopting it. I think the minister knows that I have been interested in many of the policies that have come before this house, but this is the one of all those remaining in the field of social services that I want to see instituted while I am a member of this parliament-and I hope to be a member of this parliament for some years to come, I might say. But I would like to see it instituted. I would like to be here to give a word of praise to the minister who inaugurates it.
I shall be ready to give a word of praise if I feel it is warranted, as I did publicly for the Salk vaccine program. I think our Department of National Health and Welfare did a remarkable job, a job which compares most favourably with what was done in the United States under entirely different conditions and in a different manner. I am not going to say anything which will reflect on the Salk vaccine, but I did hear a rather disturbing story tonight in the news from the United Kingdom. However, that is by the way.
I want to impress upon the minister, I want to impress upon the government, and I want to impress upon the house that I hope at the next session of the House of Commons a bill will be introduced which will enable those provinces that want to come under the plan on a co-operative basis to do so. Such a plan should not be administered by the central government of Canada but by the provincial departments of health, very much as old age pensions were first administered. We do not want any more centralization, and we should not have that centralization because, as the minister says, this is a federal state. Each province has its own department of health which could administer a federal plan under which all the provinces could come.
I do not want to delay the house at this late stage of the session, but I simply could not let this occasion pass without once more pleading earnestly with the government and the minister. I know the minister is sympathetic to the point of view I have put forward. He should go out among his friends in the province of Ontario, he should use his influence within the government of Canada, so that within the next year we may have upon the statute books of this country a plan which will give an opportunity to all provinces who want to come under it to do so.
It may be said that we have not the hospitals, that we have not the nurses, that we have not the medical men. When the province of Saskatchewan introduced their hospital plan they had 3-4 or 3-8 hospital beds

per thousand of population, whereas they now have 7 beds per thousand of population. Of course the minister takes a good deal of credit for the federal grants that are given for those hospital beds, but they are very small grants compared with the expense of building a hospital; indeed they are relatively small grants. For example, how much would the grant be for the hospital in the city of Saskatoon which has cost the province of Saskatchewan millions of dollars? Would it be 10 per cent of the cost?


Paul Joseph James Martin: A little bit higher than that. My hon. friend will remember on that particular occasion the great tribute the premier of Saskatchewan paid to the present government's national health plan.


Major James William Coldwell: I know. As I say, I am willing to give credit where credit is due. But the initiative came from the people of that province, just as the initiative is coming from the people of British Columbia and the people of Alberta to provide the hospitals. Of course the federal government aid is very welcome.
I said that 10 per cent of the cost-the minister says the figure is a little higher than that-is the contribution of the federal government to that hospital plan, as far as the building of hospitals is concerned. I therefore say, don't wait for the hospitals, because if you institute this plan all across the country public opinion will force co-operative efforts -province, municipality or what you will- to provide the hospitals. Give us the plan and the people will soon build the hospitals and equip them.
If I may just digress for a moment I should like to say this. One of the satisfying things when I went back to Saskatchewan after this plan was in effect was to find the manner in which the local people had co-operated. I do not mean municipal bodies only, but actually the local people. For example, I went down to a little place called Kyle in my constituency, where they had built a 16-bed hospital. I walked in and on one of the doors I saw a brass plate on which were inscribed these words: "This ward furnished by the ladies' guild of the Matador farm". Again, in the village of Delisle, when I went to the hospital there one of the governors of the hospital said to me, "Look in there at that electrical equipment. How do you think we obtained that?" I said, "I don't know". He said, "The Bentley boys, the two hockey players, contributed that electrical equipment". What I have said with regard to these two instances can be multiplied over and over again.


Owen C. Trainor: Voluntary effort.
Supply-Health and Welfare


Major James William Coldwell: Yes, voluntary effort. May I say to the good gentleman, who is a doctor, that I do not decry voluntary effort. I think voluntary effort is a good thing. But voluntary effort in cases like this must supplement public effort. That is the point. As long as people sit back and say "We have to wait for somebody else to do it", it will never be done. I therefore say that the people who must take the initiative are the members of this parliament and the government of Canada.


Solon Earl Low: Mr. Chairman, I always find the discussion of the estimates of the Minister of National Health and Welfare most interesting and stimulating, chiefly because we regard the health of our Canadian people as the greatest asset we have. Without that health it would be impossible for us to be a strong and vital nation.
I also find this discussion stimulating and most interesting because we have unfolded here the great drama of man's conquest of disease and conditions that contribute to disease in this country and throughout the whole world. That was the reason I was keenly interested in the report of the hon. member for Lanark on his trip to the world health organization conference. I was glad to hear the things he had to say. I was particularly glad to hear him assure the members of this house that the money Canada contributes to the world health organization is well spent. I am sure the members of the house generally were keenly interested in what he had to say about how science is winning in the battle against disease, particularly malaria.
As he spoke of malaria I was reminded of some of the things I saw when I visited British East Africa and Israel last year. I could not help thinking about something that happened in Israel particularly. As recently as 1948, when the Jewish government was set up in that state, the plain of Sharon at the very narrow waist of that country was practically uninhabitable for white people simply because of the prevalence of malariacarrying mosquitos. It was actually in the hands of Arab owners at the time. I am told by the authorities in Israel that they were able to get possession of that fertile and wonderful part of the country for a ridiculously small sum of money. They applied science to the malaria-carrying mosquitos and were able to clear the area and build it up, until now it is one of the finest citrus-producing parts of the whole country and the land itself is perhaps more valuable per acre than any other comparable part of the country. That is just an indication of the kind of thing being done by men of science all over the world.

Supply-Health and Welfare
I listened with great interest to the speech made by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and to his delineation of the need for a national health plan without individual payment. What he had to say reminded me of something I saw in a recent issue of the Letter-Review which I should like to draw to the attention of the minister. This is the issue of July 11. On page 3 there is a heading "Health Insurance Council" and under it reference is made to figures relative to health insurance in the United States. I have not had a chance to check the accuracy of these figures and I do not know whether or not the minister has had a chance to do so; but I would ask him, when he speaks in this debate, to comment on the statements that are made here. If these figures are accurate they present a picture which I think the members of the house would be glad to have. This is what the writer of the article had to say:
Health insurance council, representing U.S. organizations engaged in such insurance, announces that almost two out of three Americans-men, women and children-are protected against hospital expenses, and more than half are protected against surgical expenses.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is not true in Canada.


Solon Earl Low: No. This is in the United States.
U.S. population is now 165 million. Number of U.S. people now covered by hospital insurance is 104 million. Number of those carrying surgical insurance is 87 million. Number of those carrying ordinary medical insurance is 47 million.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I can tell my hon. friend that I have seen that article. I may say that the article is a gross exaggeration of the facts in the United States.


Solon Earl Low: That is one of the questions I wanted to ask the minister. If he says it is a gross exaggeration, then of course that satisfies me. But I was anxious to find out whether any credence was to be placed in these figures. If there were, they present a vastly different picture from the one we have heard described in this country.
At any rate, I believe this raises the whole question as to what exactly should be the role of the government in providing health insurance or prepaid medical care for the people. We have heard one view expressed here tonight by the hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar. His view is that the government of this country should put through legislation for a national health plan without individual payment. Whether or not that is the answer in a federal state I am not at this moment prepared to say. I do not know whether anyone can say, but I know the hon. member quoted quite liberally from the British scheme. I have heard a good many British doctors praise the scheme. I have


also heard some who came out to this country to get away from it. Whether they came from fear or from a full working knowledge of the situation there I am not prepared to say, but we do hear both sides of the matter.
But I remind the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and his colleagues that Britain is a unitary state. Britain does not have a country of the size we have or the greatly varied conditions we have. Nor has Britain ten provinces and provincial governments. Doubtless that would make quite a difference in the approach we make to a national health program. I think it would prove much more difficult to introduce in Canada the kind of scheme Britain has than a good many people suppose.
My colleagues and I realize how difficult the rising costs of hospitalization make it for many of our families to pay their way. We quite well realize that in the past ten years there has been a terrific rise in those costs. We are also quite aware of the increasing costs of medicine. I am aware of the fact that all too often some of the new medicines that have been discovered to fight disease are out of the reach of the ordinary person, though the people of Canada in general seem to be carrying their costs fairly well.
We are also aware of the increasing cost of medical service. Recently at a meeting of the medical men of Ontario a new schedule of rates was adopted. Like the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, I must say that the doctors as much as anyone else are entitled to their fees, and their fees must bear a fair relationship to their costs. Consequently we are not criticizing the new schedule of fees, but we do recognize that the new schedule does place a pretty heavy burden upon many of our people.
Where do we in this group stand with respect to the matter of national health insurance? We recognize the need for government action, but we rather lean to the view that the role of government in making health and medical services available to our people should be to bring them within the reach of our people, to make grants or pay subsidies for the purpose of bringing our health and hospitalization services within the reach of all our people. That has been the principle upon which we have worked in my province, and I think we have been in pretty fair harmony with the Minister of National Health and Welfare and the work he has done in the federal field.
We lean to the view that this is a voluntary type of national health program which bids fair to become really vital, and as the provinces of Canada are seized with its importance it can be extended until the coverage can be

pretty comprehensive without too high a cost. We recognize the need for the governments of Canada at all levels, municipal, provincial and federal, to get together and work out a program which will bring medical and hospital costs within the reach of all of our people.
When I say that, Mr. Chairman, I am speaking from some experience in the provincial field. I had to administer the finances of my province for some years and to dig up the money with which health services could be advanced to the people. For a moment I should like to expand on the principle I enunciated a moment ago as being the one we favour at the moment. We may change our minds as studies of the whole matter of national health insurance make progress. I notice in the minister's estimates an item providing certain sums of money to pay for the studies that are going on. I think that is all to the good, and as progress is made in these studies we may change our minds; but at the moment we lean to the view that the various governments should follow more or less the type of program we have been following in my province.
It may interest the members of the committee to take a moment to look at the kind of thing we are doing. I have in my hand the latest budget speech of the minister of finance of the province of Alberta, which sets out on page 19 a table of health services financed by the provincial treasury. These are services financed entirely by the provincial treasury, under the scheme I described a moment ago as one designed to bring costs down to a level within the reach of every person in the province. I think it has done that. For example, this year it is expected that the provincial government will pay $1,744,350 for the purpose of taking care of tuberculosis patients. That is the total cost. It is not shared by the municipal governments at all. In our province we felt the wise thing would be to have these costs transferred to the provincial government, with assistance from the federal government. I must recognize that that is true. The federal government shares these costs in the case of the tuberculosis hospitals. In the first place they contribute $1,000 per bed for the building of the hospital.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Practically all the tuberculosis equipment is ours.


Solon Earl Low: I think that is true.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Were these sanatoria not built before the federal government came into the picture?
Supply-Health and Welfare


Solon Earl Low: Not all of them. After the federal government came into the picture I think we built Memorial sanatorium in Edmonton, and we did receive a grant.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We have helped to provide about 1,200 tuberculosis beds.


Solon Earl Low: That is true. In the province of Alberta we also do something similar to what the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar suggested was done in Saskatchewan with respect to cancer treatment. The net cost for the year to the province is considered to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $300,000. There is a feature of health services in my province which I think is quite unique in Canada but which is, I believe, a pattern that may be followed by other provinces later, perhaps with help from the federal government. I refer to the field of maternity hospitalization, where this year the government of that province will pay $2,554,300 as the complete cost of hospitalization for expectant mothers. They are granted up to twelve days of hospitalization free of charge, and that is paid by the provincial government.
When I thought of that, together with the dollar a day hospitalization available in the province, I decided to take a good look at the bill I received when my youngest son was born here in the province of Ontario. When Mrs. Low came back from the hospital after being there for seven days I was presented with a bill for $84 and some odd cents, being over $12 a day. When I thought of the situation back home I decided I would have my next baby in Alberta.


George Hugh Castleden: How long were you in?


Solon Earl Low: I must say it was a tough pull for the old man.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Is my hon. friend always in control of that kind of situation?


Solon Earl Low: Yes, that is right.
The province of Alberta also recognizes the importance of adequate care of our mental patients. Hospitals and equipment are provided, and as many psychiatrists as possible. It will take $4,609,150 to meet the cost of that service to the mentally deficient this year.
In addition to that, for a good many years our province has felt it was desirable to subsidize our hospitals, which are municipally run or run by private associations, like the various orders of the sisters in the province. We felt it was desirable to grant them subsidies at the rate of 75 cents per patient per day. This has been going on for a good many years, and this year we will have to pay out something in the neighbourhood of $3 million for that service. It is well spent,
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Supply-Health and Welfare and is in addition to the hospitalization grants to local authorities from the provincial government of approximately $4 million this year for the purpose of bringing hospital costs down to $1 per day for ordinary ward service. This grant of something in the neighbourhood of $4 million by the provincial government makes that possible. When you compare that charge with the per diem costs of general ward hospitalization in other hospitals it looks rather small.
This is the kind of service which I started out to describe as a voluntary type of service, but one which does succeed in bringing costs down to a point within the ability of people to pay.
In addtion to that, if there are people in the province who are indigents and cannot pay anything for their hospitalization, they are taken care of at University hospital, completely government-run, or in some other hospital at government expense. They are taken care of, therefore, without any difficulty at all. May I point out too, that this year the province of Alberta will pay out from provincial funds around $2,810,000 for the purpose of looking after the medical and hospitalization needs of our old age pensioners. This is granted to them free by the province. This is as it should be, because many of the pensioners are certainly not in any position to take care of their own costs.
I believe that service is good and rather unique.
We are granting this year something which I wanted to draw to the attention of the minister, a new appropriation of $1,200,000 that was instituted by the provincial treasurer for the purpose of making a start on the process of bringing down medical costs. To any person, for instance, who has a medical contract with a doctor, or a medical insurance policy, and who presents that policy or evidence of the contract to the provincial authorities, they will make a grant of about 33 i per cent of its cost. This will bring medical costs down to at least manageable proportions. As I say, that is only a beginning, but it certainly is a beginning on a very good idea.
We feel that this is the kind of thing which could be done by governments to very good effect. While it does leave something to the individual, it helps him to manage an expense that otherwise may grow, in many cases, beyond his ability to manage. We feel, therefore, that is a good start. I do not want to weary the committee at all but I do want to say that this year, to develop the kind of program which we have envisioned, the province of Alberta win pay out $23,111,900 for


medical services alone; that is, the government will grant that amount to individuals and hospitals for the purpose of helping people obtain medical service at a reasonable cost.
Over the ten-year period just ended, Alberta will have spent $126,103,000 for public health services and $102,183,000 for public welfare services. Over the ten years, therefore, for health and welfare the provincial government will have made available to the people $228 million, in round figures, which is a pretty healthy contribution to the program we started to develop some years ago.
I noticed an article in the Montreal Gazette of Thursday, June 16, which describes a voluntary health program proposed by the medical people of Canada. I believe they call it the trans-Canada medical plan. I just wanted to refer to it briefly because it indicates the trend in medical circles today. It is the expansion of a trend that started in some parts of Canada as far back as 30 or 35 years ago.
I remember that in my own home town in southern Alberta a good many years ago the people in the municipal council decided to approach the medical doctors and work out with them, if possible, a contract scheme of medical service. The municipal people agreed to collect $25 per year per family from the various families in the district who wanted to come into the scheme voluntarily. This was paid over to the doctors, and they agreed to give all members of those families office calls, home calls, minor surgery and major surgery. This type of scheme worked very well in my community for a long time.
My family participated in the scheme and we found it to be most satisfying, because we were prepaid and on a basis that did not hurt us at all. I doubt very much that you could have found a comprehensive national scheme based upon compulsory membership and taxation that could have touched it. The scheme has grown in the community, and it has been developed quite widely in various centres in southern Alberta. I might add that in recent years the costs have gone up. 1 believe the last I heard it was around $35 per year per family, if not more.
But let me show you how it works today. In those communities that have that kind of contract with their local doctor, it will be possible for the participants to get a rebate of about 33J per cent of the cost from the provincial government under the new scheme of medical insurance. This will bring the cost down to approximately where it was 20 years ago. That sort of thing is what is envisioned in the scheme put forward by the trans-Canada medical plan. It seems to

me a plan that could be developed quite widely in Canada in order to help people enjoy some sort of security with respect to illness, and against those diseases that strike so often and sometimes require long and costly treatment.
I think perhaps I have said enough about national health insurance. We would urge the minister to continue his studies under his national health program and make the findings available as quickly as he can to the House of Commons. Above all he should continue his efforts to logically expand the program he has started, because we think it is a good program. The federal help has certainly been thankfully received by the provinces. My province feels that in the main what the federal government has done has been very much worth while.


Mr. Blackmore:: Would the hon. member tell the house what Alberta has done in connection with poliomyelitis?


Solon Earl Low: Well, I shall not do so now, because my time is fast running out. Perhaps I might leave that subject to someone else.
Legislation respecting allowances to disabled persons was introduced in the house in 1954 and for some time the provinces have been coming under that scheme. The question in my mind is this. Why was it that about a third of the disabled persons in receipt of allowances under the Alberta disabled persons allowances act were at that time declared ineligible for allowance under the federal-provincial scheme of 1954?


Paul Joseph James Martin: Could we deal with that when we come to that item?


Solon Earl Low: Yes, I shall be glad to do so.
I just wanted to say that the scheme for disabled persons was a good one. We looked forward to the introduction of allowances for disabled persons, and the scheme in Alberta got under way a couple of years before the federal measure was introduced in the House of Commons in 1954. The result was that Alberta had had some experience before the federal-provincial scheme came into effect. But the fact is that when that scheme was given effect to in Alberta, approximately a third of those who had been receiving benefits under the provincial scheme were declared ineligible. It may be that the federal-provincial scheme is too stringent.
I can say that at the present time in Alberta we have two schemes, because the provincial government did not reject the one it had started. They are going on now with the provincial scheme supplementary to the federal-provincial one under which, as I said, about a third of the Albertans who
Supply-Health and Welfare were eligible under the provincial scheme have been declared ineligible. I would ask the minister to comment upon that, because if the regulations are too stringent then it seems to me something should be done to loosen them up.
I would like to say a word about the need for intensified research in the field of arthritis. People throughout Canada are conscious of the help being given in other branches of the health service. They realize, however, that arthritis is a killer, and one of the most painful experiences one can have in these days. It seems to me that it might be necessary to put on a greater drive, and to make more of the wherewithal available so that research could be carried on intensively in an effort to find out the causes, make those causes known, and possibly treat them.
In common with others I wish to express my pride in what Canadian manufacturers and scientists have been able to accomplish in the preparation of the vaccine for the treatment of poliomyelitis. The situation in Canada with respect to the Salk vaccine, so far as I have been able to learn, shows that the supply has been good and clean. In no small degree this is due to the great care that has been taken by the health authorities in Canada, as well as the manufacturers and scientists who have been working on it here. This treatment bids fair to rid our country of this dread disease, and we most sincerely hope that will be the result.
Let me add one word about the shortage of nurses, to which reference has already been made. I had a little girl from our family graduate this spring from the school of nursing at the Ottawa Civic hospital. We know what these young people have to go through. It is an intensive and also a wonderful training. But there are times during the course of that training when these young people become greatly discouraged. It is the type of training that requires a good deal of encouragement from parents, teachers and instructors, but when the students have completed the course, they have something.
It does seem to me that this shortage of something like 12,000 nurses in Canada I believe that was the figure given by the hon. member for Lanark, and if it is not right the minister will correct it-


Paul Joseph James Martin: It is less than half that.


Solon Earl Low: Well, even if it is less than half, or less than 6,000, that is serious enough. It indicates that something will have to be done to help young people have a better understanding of the career available to them in nursing. I do know that the salaries paid to nurses are not comparable with those paid
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Supply-Health and Welfare to other people in other occupations, who are trained in a similar fashion. It seems to me that when one considers the intensive training they have to undergo, the great restraints they must exercise and the things they have to do, we will have to devise some way of making their vocation more attractive. I am sure that we are virile enough to figure out ways and means of attracting more young people into what, in my judgment, is the greatest profession on the face of the earth.
The minister is to be commended for the good things he has done. We want to urge him along, with perhaps a few hatpin jabs just to keep him moving, and have him expand the program he has started upon. If in due course the studies of national health insurance plans indicate that it is possible under our federal system in Canada to have a scheme that will work, and that will be satisfactory to our people, then I am sure there will not be any difficulty either with me or my group.


Harry Oliver White: Mr. Chairman, first of all I wish to compliment the hon. member for Lanark, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, and the hon. member for Peace River upon the very excellent representations they made this evening in the matter of national health. While I propose to make a few observations respecting national health plans, what I shall say will be more detailed and more local in nature.
I think I am safe in saying that the vast majority of Canadians feel that a national health insurance plan of some kind is long overdue. The move made recently by the premier of Ontario, in which he indicated that the province was prepared to enter such a plan, shows the thinking of the people of that province, and I have no doubt of other parts of Canada. So I am hopeful that before too long we will see introduced in the House of Commons a measure or measures which would go to implement one plan or another.
One of the speakers mentioned that health insurance had been kicked around since 1919. Another mentioned the price already being paid by Canadians for health insurance plans of one kind or another. Suffering from a cold, as I am tonight, I recommend to the department that some research be done in that connection. I heard the other day that years ago when one got a cold it lasted two weeks; but now, with all the new antibiotics and drugs of one kind and another, it lasts only a fortnight. Be that as it may, it is something on which some work can be done.
I was glad to hear the minister say that the suggestion that has gone abroad that all ten provinces will have to come in and agree with


the federal government on a plan before it could be inaugurated is not true. I was glad to hear him deny that, because I have had it mentioned to me that during one of those television interviews with the press that was the impression left with the public and the press.


Murdo William Martin: It was a different subject altogether.


Mr. While (Middlesex Easl):: As I say, I was glad to hear the minister deny that. I would also point out that I agree with what the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar said, namely that the part the federal government should play is that of aiding and bringing together the provinces and the municipalities, along with the federal department of health, but the details should be left with the provinces and the municipalities. I agree with that because the further the administration is away from the people the more costly it is and the more difficult it is to carry out. At best I am afraid it might be a conglomeration of a national health plan and provincial plans, of health schemes and insurance plans of one kind and another. With the help of the departments of health of the various provinces and the information the minister must have at hand after all these years, I have no doubt that a workable scheme can be arrived at.
I now want to take a moment or two to deal with the question of the rebate of sales tax to hospitals. I am interested in this particularly because of the fact that in London, Ontario, we have a number of hospitals, and I am going to give the names. I see the minister fidgeting.


Paul Joseph James Martin: This is a matter that really does not come within the jurisdiction of the Minister of National Health and Welfare.


George Stanley White: I have a letter from the minister's department about it.


Murdo William Martin: I have no authority in the matter.


George Stanley White: So far as I
have been able to ascertain these are the hospitals in the county of Middlesex that are in receipt of a rebate or are sales tax free on supplies that are purchased: Strathroy General hospital; Beck Memorial sanatorium; Parkwood hospital for incurables; Ontario hospital (provincial); St. Joseph's hospital; St. Mary's hospital; Victoria hospital; Western Counties veterans lodge; Westminster hospital. The Middlesex County home and the Dr. John Dearness home for elder citizens pay their tax but get a refund. Therefore, outside of private hospitals, the only hospital

in the city of London or the county of Middlesex, I should say, that does not get the rebate of the sales tax is the Bethesda hospital operated by the Salvation Army.
f have had some correspondence about it, and there are some technicalities, I agree, that have not been worked out. But when we realize that the fees charged by Victoria hospital and St. Joseph's hospital, for instance, as compared with Bethesda are considerably higher-and I use these two hospitals as an example-and that they are in receipt of grants that Bethesda hospital is not, and yet Bethesda hospital provides hospital care at a comparatively reasonable rate, it is not right. The class of people who go to Bethesda hospital are not able financially to go to these other hospitals I have mentioned. It is doing a great charitable work for a segment of the population that needs it, and consequently I would think it would not be too difficult to work out some plan to aid the hospital.
I hold in my hand a letter from the minister's department, dated June 22 of this year, pointing out that section 105A of the Excise Tax Act-


Paul Joseph James Martin: The matter should be discussed with the Department of National Revenue.


Harry Oliver White: I took it up with that department and was told that I should take it up with the minister. I am taking it up with the minister, and he can take it up with the other department. I shall read the letter from the minister's department. It reads in part as follows:
This section applies in respect of an institution that is certified by the Minister of National Health and Welfare in accordance with regulations of the governor in council to be
(a)	a bona fide public institution whose principal purpose is to provide permanent or semi-permanent shelter and care for children or aged, infirm or incapacitated persons who reside in the institution; and
(b)	in receipt annually of aid from the government of Canada or a province for the maintenance of persons specified in paragraph (a).
Further on the letter says:
A review of records in this office has been made in order to determine whether there is any possibility of the hospital qualifying as a bona fide public institution. I have learned, however, that when an application was received from the Bethesda hospital some years ago it was found that the duration of care provided was a barrier to its certification.
In the John Dearness home they are there for years and years; in the Middlesex County home they are there for years and years. Therefore time is not the element. In Victoria hospital, the St. Joseph's hospital, and other hospitals of that nature the patients may be there for only a day or two weeks.
Supply-Health and Welfare They get the rebate. In other places where they are there for years, they get the rebate. Time seems to be the element so far as Bethesda is concerned. I do not think that is right. The letter continues:
This, to our way of thinking, is more in the nature of temporary care rather than semi-permanent or permanent care as required by the act.
It is only necessary to change the regulations a little and Bethesda could comply with them.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall see that this is brought to the attention of the Minister of National Revenue.


Harry Oliver White: I feel that Bethesda hospital should have a refund of the sales tax. There is no question in the world but that the Salvation Army hospital in the city of London is doing a great work for a class of people that need it.
I have one other small matter that I want to bring to the attention of the minister. It is a contentious question in many municipalities. I refer to the fluoridation of water. We all realize that there are probably cranks on both sides, but I do think the people of Canada would be glad to know definitely from the department just what is the answer. I think they have every confidence in any information the Department of National Health and Welfare puts out.
I took it upon myself to inquire from one of the former city engineers of the city of London. The Engineering Institute of Canada, London, Ontario, branch, held a meeting on April 26 last, and that was the subject that was dealt with. There was quite a panel of people there, interested citizens and doctors, and many questions were asked. I am not going into all the details, but there were arguments pro and con on the subject. The amazing thing to me is that not 1 per cent of the water that is treated in any municipality actually gets to the people for whom it is destined. In other words, after the water is treated with fluorides you wash your car and your dishes with it. Less than 1 per cent of the water gets to the child who it is claimed is going to benefit from it so far as his teeth are concerned. I understand that we obtain fluorine from natural foods such as milk, eggs, butter, cheese, chicken livers, etc., while the synthetic fluorines are a by-product of the aluminum industry. Without going into details, there are two paragraphs in this report of the meeting held in London which I should like to quote. Mr. W. M. Veitch, the engineer of the city of London, put the following inquiry to the meeting:
The whole question is puzzling to me. We do not seem to get answers to our inquiries and if we pursue them, we are "cranks". There are, of

Supply-Health and Welfare course, "cranks" who make ridiculous claims about communistic sabotage, rat poison, mental and physical diseases attributable to fluoridation of water, and even sterility.
If the government should decide that fluoridation of water is the only method of application and that the expense is justified, then they should declare a pure water supply is one which must be chlorinated and contain 1 p.p.m. fluorine, either in natural or artificial form.
It would clear the air of a lot of doubt and allow suspicious people to know whether they should be for it or against it.


Mr. Knight:: Mr. Chairman, I shall confess quite freely that I am putting in the time until ten o'clock because what I have to say can be said in five minutes but one of my colleagues wishes to speak at greater length. As a matter of fact I had not intended to speak at all on the matter.
I have listened to some of the arguments and quotations which my leader gave people who are opposed to this system of what they call state medicine, but which I prefer to call national health insurance. One of the first arguments I heard was that advanced by the minister himself when he asserted, perhaps not loudly enough, that one of the great drawbacks to a national health scheme was the fact that we are under a federal system. I admit quite readily that it would be more difficult to bring about a national health insurance scheme under a federal system, but once established there would be no less benefit under a federal system than under a unitary system such as they have in Great Britain. I think that is a point that should have been cleared up.
Another argument, and this is a favourite one of the Prime Minister who has used it on previous occasions, is that you cannot have a national scheme until there are available the necessary doctors, nurses, equipment and so forth. In rebuttal of that argument I simply make this broad assertion. If we had waited in Saskatchewan until we had seven hospital beds per thousand of population we never would have had our hospitalization scheme. We went ahead with the scheme and gradually built up the number of hospital beds we have at the present time, and in this connection I give due credit to the minister. We should have the scheme first and these other things will be added.
The most ridiculous of all, of course, is the argument of my free enterprise friends who are always talking about the killing of private initiative. Ye gods, a woman who was sick and living 45 miles from town would not consider that national health insurance was killing her individual initiative. Disease will take her life; then she will not have to worry about her individual initiative.

I am reminded of my own experience many years ago. I sold three-quarters of an acre of land to the municipality in 1911 to be used as a cemetery. Because I was there, because I had the necessary picks and shovels, because I had hot coffee and the like, I helped bury a good many people on that site. I have known many a poor woman who was faced with childbirth, but because she lived 42 miles from town and could not risk ruining her family financially, because it would have meant ruination for the rest of their economic lives if she had to go to hospital, she tried ,to get along without that service and we buried her under the hill. That is what I have to say about killing initiative.
Let me say one word to my hon. friend here who is whispering about personal initiative, private initiative and the rest of it. I had a Conservative doctor as a father. He could not help it, because it is a matter of education. My father went into many long discussions at the breakfast table and other places in regard to Lloyd George's panel. I know all the arguments, because I have listened to many doctors speak about it. The fact that a man is a doctor means that he is most conservative, but it means also that he is intelligent; otherwise he could not have obtained his medical degree. Doctors are capable of learning, and some of them are capable of accepting change.
I think this has been proved. The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar told some stories about experiences in Britain. During the last five or six years I have spent some time in Britain, and I know what has happened there on the part of the medical profession. As was evidenced by the quotations which were read and as was said by a prominent doctor who spoke the other day, the fact that they have so much enthusiasm for the scheme proves that it is good. The Tory party in Britain has never tried to counteract the measures which were brought in in this regard in the British house. To my mind this proves that the scheme must be acceptable to the British people.
I think I have taken up my five minutes. If I have made any contribution to the debate, well and good; if not, then my friends in this group will continue tomorrow with longer speeches.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Let them say it now.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Some of my colleagues wish to speak, and I do not think we will reopen that argument tonight. The Minister of Finance over there would perhaps make another effort. As a matter of fact a couple of our colleagues who have just departed left upon the assurance that the proceedings of

Supply
this house would be suspended at ten o'clock. Therefore I conclude my remarks by drawing to your attention, Mr. Chairman, that it is now ten o'clock.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Not even if I asked my hon. friend to go on a little further? Would he not be open to a suggestion from a most agreeable minister?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I do not think the minister would want his first item to pass without the committee hearing from either him or his parliamentary assistant.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thought I would do it on the
items.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: As it is now after ten o'clock-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I can save my hon. friend the necessity of speaking further. I did not intend to say anything until we reached the items. I thought that was the best and most orderly way of dealing with the estimates.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: It being ten o'clock, shall I report the resolutions and ask leave to sit again?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported, read the second time and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr.   Karris@: Tomorrow morning we shall take public archives, national library, national film board and the supplementaries of citizenship and immigration. Then we shall continue with national health and welfare, then take veterans affairs, mines and technical surveys and public works.
I should also say. Mr. Speaker, that it has been understood among all of us that on Monday and Tuesday we shall go into supply by consent. There will not be an amendment to the supply motion.


[Stage Direction]
It being four minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
Atomic energy control board-
51.	Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $45,650.
52.	Grants for researches and investigations with respect to atomic energy, $300,000.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (research program) -
53.	Current operation and maintenance, including expendable research equipment, $11,366,183.
54.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of works at Deep River for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $6,983,465.
National research council-
284.	Salaries and other expenses, $14,668,891.
285.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $2,444,700.
Dominion bureau of statistics-
443.	Census, $953,002.
Canada Grain Act-
Board of grain commissioners-
444.	Administration. $136,425.
445.	Operation and maintenance expenses, $3,594,148.
Canadian government elevators-
446.	Operation and maintenance expenses, $1,404,479.
447.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $291,547.
Special-
448.	International economic and technical cooperation branch, including the administration of the Colombo plan and of certain United Nations co-operation plans, $119,993.
Loans, investments and advances-
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-
536.	To provide for advances to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in such amounts and on such terms and conditions (including the delivery to Her Majesty, in satisfaction of the advances, of obligations or shares of the company) as the governor in council may approve, to finance the construction of a new reactor (NRU) and auxiliary buildings at Chalk River project, works to provide services in connection therewith, to construct or acquire equipment for the commercial products division in Ottawa and other locations, and housing and other works to be constructed at Deep River; and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of the said housing and other works at Deep River for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $6,464,000.
Loans, investments and advances-
544. To authorize, in the current and subsequent fiscal years, a special operating account in the consolidated revenue fund to which shall be charged expenditures incurred in respect of the Canadian international trade fair and to which shall be credited all monies received in connection with the operations of the fair, the excess of the amounts charged over the amounts credited to the account at any time not to exceed, $1.
537.	To provide for working capital advances to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, subject to such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve, $1,560,000.
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (research program) -
640. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of works at Deep River for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-further amount required, $2,239,500.
National research council-
690. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $25,000.
[Stage Direction]
Supply
General administration-
739.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $3,000.
Exhibitions-
740.	Exhibitions generally-further amount required, $25,000.
Standards branch-
741.	Electricity and gas inspection services-further amount required, $5,000.
Canada Grain Act-
Board of grain commissioners-
742.	Administration-further amount required, $14,475.
Special-
743.	International economic and technical cooperation branch, including the administration of the Colombo plan and of certain United Nations cc-operation plans-further amount required, $33,043.
744.	To provide, notwithstanding anything in the Prairie Grain Producers' Interim Financing Act, 1951 (hereinafter called "the act"), that if the amount recovered by or on behalf of Her Majesty from a borrower under the act is not less than the amount which the Minister of Finance has paid to a bank under section 3 of the act, no further amount shall be recovered from the borrower by or on behalf of Her Majesty, $1.
Atomic Energy of Canada limited-
784. To provide for advances to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in such amounts and on such terms and conditions (including the delivery to Her Majesty, in satisfaction of the advances, of obligations or shares of the company) as the governor in council may approve, to finance the construction of a new reactor (NRU) and auxiliary buildings at Chalk River project, works to provide services in
connection therewith, to construct or acquire equipment for the commercial products division in Ottawa and other locations, and housing and other works to be constructed at Deep River; and to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to undertake construction of the said housing and other works at Deep River for Atomic Energy of Canada Limited-further amount required, $6,000,500.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
85.	Departmental administration and payments to Canadian Commercial Corporation and other corporate agencies for services provided in connection with defence purchasing and production, $6,391,430.
86.	Care, maintenance and custody of standby crown-owned plants, buildings, machine tools and production tooling, $750,000.
87.	To provide capital assistance for the construction, acquisition, extension or improvement of capital equipment or works by private contractors engaged in defence contracts, or by crown plants operated on a management-fee basis, or by crown companies under direction of the Minister of Defence Production, subject to approval of treasury board, $8,250,000.
88.	To provide for payment of grants to municipalities in lieu of taxes on crown-owned defence plants operated by private contractors, $330,000.
B-Crown companies-
89.	To provide for expenses incurred by Defence Construction (1951) Limited in procuring the construction of defence projects on behalf of the Department of National Defence, $3,500,000.
Canadian Arsenals Limited-
90.	Administration and operation, $1.
91.	Construction, improvements and new equipment, $4,535,558.
624S
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, July IS, 1955