1954-04-09

Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, we were all profoundly shocked when we learned early yesterday afternoon of the terrible aircraft accident at Moose Jaw which snuffed out instantaneously the lives of the thirty-one passengers of the T.C.A. air liner, of the four members of its crew, of the pilot of the R.C.A.F. trainer craft involved with the liner in a mid-air collision, and of one more person on the ground suffocated in the ruins of a home destroyed by the flaming wreckage of the planes.
Our warmhearted sympathy reached out at once to all those so tragically bereaved.
But for each one of us in this house our grief became an even more personal thing when the liner's passenger list was made public and Mr. and Mrs. Adamson's names appeared in it. It is truly said that despite our differences in political outlook friendships are formed in this house without regard to party lines. No political difference ever stood in the way of becoming a friend of Rodney Adamson. Our colleague had qualities that endeared him to all of us. His unassuming manner was but one of the many aspects of his solicitude for his fellow men, and throughout his life he used his abilities to the full to work and to fight in their interests.
He was only thirteen years of age when the first world war broke out but somehow, despite his youth, he contrived to serve his country overseas as a pilot before the conflict was over. When the second world war broke out he might well have felt that he had already done his duty to his country in warfare, but his patriotism was such that he could not take any easy course. Once more he served overseas as an officer in the Lome Scots.
He was first elected to this house in 1940 for the Ontario constituency of York West and was returned by his constituents in each succeeding general election. With characteristic vigour he displayed his interest in a wide variety of the activities of parliament and was one of the official opposition's first-line debaters. Those of us who sit on this
side of Mr. Speaker, while not agreeing with all of the things he said, listened to him with respect, for we knew that when Mr. Adamson spoke he spoke after careful preparation and with strong conviction.
He will be remembered in this chamber chiefly, I think, for his interest in conservation and in the development of our resources in the best interests of all Canadians. It will be recalled that during this session he emphasized, and it needed emphasis, the importance of our great northern region. The loss of our colleague and his devoted wife is a real one, and our heartfelt sympathy is extended to their children and their families. It is also extended, Mr. Speaker, to you personally and by all of us on this side of the house, to the Leader of the Opposition and the members of his party both in the house and in the country.


Hon. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I know that the members of families of both Mr. and Mrs. Adamson will appreciate the words of sympathy that have been expressed by the Prime Minister on behalf of all of us. It is always a tragic thing to realize that those with whom we have been so closely associated day by day have suddenly been taken from us, but there does seem to be a particularly tragic aspect to this accident when we realize that both of them, Rodney and Cynthia as we knew them, were with us only a few days ago, gay, vigorous and so friendly to everyone they met. As the Prime Minister has said, friendships are not in any way limited to the parties with which we are associated, and I know that there was warm and affectionate friendship for both of them in every part of this house.
Rodney Adamson came of a military family. In the first world war his father had commanded that very famous regiment, the Princess Patricia's. The son, both in the first war and the last war, served his country well. He continued his military interests.
As has already been pointed out in the press, Rodney Adamson went to some pains to keep himself informed. At some considerable risk he and his wife spent some time beyond the iron curtain seeking to learn something of what was taking place there. He served his own constituency and his country well. For fourteen years he has represented a large and very important part

The late Rodney Adamson of Ontario. We remember him best for his constant and unfailing interest in the conservation of resources, particularly the mining resources of this country. He was an advocate of free gold, and will always be remembered as one of those who had deep and strong convictions concerning the importance of gold in supporting the economy of our country.
At a time when there may be too great a tendency towards conformity, Rodney Adamson was an individualist. He never hesitated to express his own views with clarity and firmness, whether or not they happened to be the views that were generally accepted. He was the chairman of the committee of our party on natural resources, and we relied greatly on him and his knowledge of that subject. His wife was keenly interested in public affairs, and also served in uniform with distinction during the last war, when she commanded the Canadian women's army corps in Italy. She knew Europe well. She followed both domestic and international affairs, and the two of them were a very effective team in all that they were doing here in Ottawa. Of both of them, I think it could be appropriately said that they died on active service.
What happened in this case does emphasize the fact that all the members of this house are called upon to accept certain responsibilities which impose inescapable risks. Last night he was to have spoken in Calgary at a political meeting. This afternoon he was to have attended a reception specially arranged for him by his father's old regiment, the Princess Patricia's, in Calgary. This evening he was to have addressed that very famous organization, the United Services Club of Calgary. His public service activities were continued right to the end.
In speaking of him in this way and of the services that he performed, may I mention the fact that we had a very clear expression of the extent to which party lines leave no divisions at a time like this. I do want to say that no one could have been more thoughtful than was the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) in his attention to all the details connected with this very tragic event. I think it would be appropriate that I should also say that I do realize that this has been a great blow to him. Whatever differences of opinion there may have been at any time in regard to the details of administration or otherwise, I am sure there is no one in this house who has ever questioned the deep and abiding devotion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to that service with which he has been so closely


associated. The safety record of Trans-Canada Air Lines has been one of which all Canadians can be proud.
It is an unhappy circumstance that we should now be expressing sympathy in the death of one of our own members and his wife on the occasion of the first fatal accident there has been in so many years. I know the sympathy of every member here will go out in full measure to the mother and father of Mrs. Adamson; to the brother of Mr. Adamson; and particularly to their sons, one of whom is only five years old. The thoughts of all of us will be with them not only now but in the years ahead. At the same time may I say that our sympathy is extended to the families of all those who died in this terrible disaster. All Canadians will be thinking of them in their sorrow.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roseiown-Biggar):: When the first news of this unaccountable accident reached the house, Mr. Speaker, there was general consternation because of the loss of life involved. Then, too, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) has said, because of the exceptionally fine record of Trans-Canada Air Lines there was a feeling of regret that this happening should have occurred yesterday. But when later in the afternoon we learned that one of our own members and his wife, Mr. and Mrs. Adamson, were passengers on the plane there was not only the general feeling to which I have already referred, but a feeling of deep regret and deep sorrow at the loss of one of our members for whom all of us had a very high regard.
Rodney Adamson came here in 1940. I remember well when he came. I recall that we thought of him as a very kindly, friendly, new colleague. Throughout the years he vindicated the feeling we had at the outset of his appearance here. It is indeed a tragedy that he should be taken from our midst at this time, and with him his very charming wife. They leave two children behind and, as the Leader of the Opposition has said, not only will they be in our minds today, but I am sure that many of us will think of them throughout the days to come.
I should like to say, too, that we join with everyone in this house not only in expressing sympathy to the father and mother of Mrs. Adamson, to Mr. Adamson's brother, whom some of us know, and to the children, but to those bereaved friends and relatives of the others who died under these tragic circumstances. We think of the crew of the plane, because the crews of our Trans-Canada Air Lines are exceptionally careful-the splendid

record they have built up indicates that. We sympathize with them. We sympathize with the relatives of the passengers who were lost in this tragic occurrence.
As has been said here, when something of this sort strikes us, both as a House of Commons and as a country, I know that there is genuine sorrow for those who suffer under such tragic circumstances. We sympathize, too, with the friends and relatives of the woman on the ground who lost her life so suddenly when the flaming parts of the plane struck a home in the city of Moose Jaw. Perhaps later on, when an investigation has been made, it will be possible to say what error of judgment accounts for all this; and that brings to our minds that, after all, human judgment is often very unreliable. And so, on my colleagues' and my own behalf, I join with everyone in the house in expressing our sympathy to all who have been bereaved. I should like also to associate myself with the very genuine remarks of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) in regard to the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) who has shown such a keen interest in and is so justly proud of the great air line he has done so much to build.


Mr. E. G. Hansell (Macleod):: Mr. Speaker, I am certain that the leader of this party would want me to express the feelings of our group. We join with others who have expressed sympathy on the sudden passing of Mr. Rodney Adamson and his wife. It brings to our minds once again the forcefulness of that truth, that we know not what a day may bring forth.
Mr. Adamson's office was in the same corridor as the offices of this group, and it meant that our paths very often met. At such times we had the opportunity to chat for a few moments with him. We felt he was a man who formed real convictions, and whose convictions really meant something to him. He will be missed by his party, because I am sure he was a most valuable asset to it. He will also be missed by the House of Commons and by his host of friends.
We join with others in offering our sympathy to those of his loved ones who are left to mourn his loss.


Miss Margaret Aitken (York-Humber):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to add my words of tribute, because in doing so I feel I am voicing what is in the hearts of the people that Rodney Adamson represented in this Canadian parliament for so many years.
The late Rodney Adamson
The constituency of York-Humber was carved out of Mr. Adamson's constituency of York West. Some of the people for whom he spoke in this House of Commons are the people for whom I speak now. I know what a loss his death, and that of his wife Cynthia, will mean to those people, whom he served so faithfully.
The people of York West and of York-Humber were proud of Rodney Adamson, and they showed that pride by choosing him again and again from 1940, onward, to represent them in parliament. He had won their respect, their confidence and their affection as a public servant and as a man of the highest integrity. In York West and York-Humber we mourn the loss of a good friend and a good servant of the people.



NEW MEMBERS

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that the Clerk has received from the chief electoral officer certificates of the election and return of the following members, viz.:
Of Yves Leduc, Esquire, for the electoral district of Verdun.
Of James Alexander McBain, Esquire, for the electoral district of Elgin.
Of John C. Pallett, Esquire, for the electoral district of Peel.
Of Rodolphe Leduc, Esquire, for the electoral district of Gatineau.



RAILWAYS, CANALS AND TELEGRAPH LINES

[Stage Direction]
Sixth report of standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.-Mr. McCulloch (Pictou).


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. It is reported today that Italy and Sweden have dropped out of the international wheat agreement, and that therefore they will not be taking up the amount of wheat they would have previously taken up-I believe the figure is 32 million bushels. Has the Minister of Trade and Commerce any comment to make on this information, in view of our present situation, and the accumulation of wheat that we have in this country?
3932	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the information I have is that Sweden has decided not to ratify. Sweden had a very small quota, indeed-a matter of two or three million bushels. That country has never been a considerable buyer of wheat. This year Sweden is actually an exporting country. It has exported seven or eight million bushels.
Italy did not ratify, owing to a change in government. Italy has still not ratified. Italy has applied to the council for a reduction in their quota. A meeting will be held to determine whether the reduction will be granted or not. I understand that if the reduction is granted Italy intends to sign. To date Italy has not ratified, but Italy has not indicated an intention of not ratifying.


Mr. Johnson (Kindersley):: Is there any possibility of other countries with commitments amounting to 32 million bushels, and that have not ratified the agreement, taking similar action?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I have had no notice of these questions. The only country I recall that has not ratified is Brazil. Brazil indicated some time ago that they would not ratify the agreement, and Brazil had a considerable quota. However, Brazil is still buying wheat from North America, although they are buying outside the quota. The position is the same as that of the United Kingdom.
I think, aside from that, all the countries have ratified, except in the cases of Sweden and Italy.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Elmore Philpott (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Has the attention of the minister been drawn to a publicity release issued by the Norwegian information service from Washington, D.C., on March 11, beginning as follows:	"The
Scandinavian-"


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member should put his question without making quotations.


Elmore Philpott: The release is to the effect that negotiations are taking place between Norway and the United States for rights to fly over the Canadian polar regions. Will the minister make clear that the polar regions
[Mr. Drew.)

of Canada are exclusively under the control of Canada, and that the United States has no jurisdiction in any way over those areas?


Mr. Speaker:: That is a question the drafting of which could have been very much improved. I would ask the hon. member to see to it that his questions are in a form in which they ask for information, rather than supply it.


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):: My attention has been drawn to the press release in question. So far as the point made by my hon. friend is concerned, no question of infringement of Canadian sovereign rights over the Arctic, by trans-polar flying, is involved, because I understand the negotiations which concern air service between Scandinavian states and the United States deal with only flying over and not landing in Canada, and these states already have that right under the international air service transit agreement signed in 1945.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I put a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs concerning the possible communication to the Canadian government of a proposal of President Eisenhower and Mr. Dulles with reference to a proposed warning to China with respect to hostilities in Indo-China. The Secretary of State for External Affairs was good enough to indicate, as reported at page 3885 of Hansard, that while the Canadian government had no-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Can the hon. member ask his question without giving all these prefacing details?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I was referring to the fact that in reply to that question yesterday the minister said that he was making inquiries in Washington in order to ascertain the exact nature of the proposal. I wonder whether the minister has now had any communication on that subject, to throw any light on the matter that he could not yesterday?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Inasmuch as talks are still going on between the United States and other governments concerned about this matter, there is nothing I can usefully add at this time to what I said yesterday.



RADIO BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport or his parliamentary assistant. Have consultations been held between the Department of Transport or the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and any representatives of the Mexican government or radio interests in Mexico during the last month in respect to frequency allocations?
May I ask a second question in this connection? If the answer is in the affirmative, will the minister state the nature and results of these negotiations or consultations?


Mr. L. Langlois (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, since I received no previous notice of this question, may I take this as notice?


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege. Did I understand the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Transport to say that he had not received notice of my question? I might say that I sent the minister notice of the question. Evidently it was not passed on to the parliamentary assistant. Might I ask if he will take this as notice of the question and answer it on Monday?


J. G. Léopold Langlois: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I must say that I left my office in the Hunter building at one o'clock and I have not seen a copy of the question. I will try to bring down the answer on Monday.



FERRY SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
J. G. Léopold Langlois: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, as reported at page 3886 of Hansard, the hon. member for Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. Buchanan) asked a question that had to do with the commencement of operations by the new car ferry between North Sydney, Nova Scotia, and Port aux Basques, Newfoundland. In answer to this question, I wish to state that it is expected this new car ferry, the C.G.S. William Carson, which, as I stated yesterday, is under construction at the present time, will commence its operation in the fall of this year.
Inquiries of the Ministry The Canadian National Railways are most anxious to have this ship operating early enough so that it can be fully tested for the difficult winter operations.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
J. G. Léopold Langlois: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Wellington-Huron (Mr. Howe) asked me a question, as reported at page 3886 of Hansard, having to do with a press report in connection with the Palmerston-Southampton branch line. In answer to that question I must say to my hon. friend that I have been unable to find the press report he referred to, but I assume that it has reference to possible changes in train schedules. I am informed by the Canadian National Railways that an adjustment in schedules will go into effect on April 25 with the spring change in timetables. The schedule of the mixed train No. 329 will be lengthened by 30 minutes and that of mixed train No. 330, by 45 minutes.
I wish to add here that the wider question of the service on this branch line is now before the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada where the representations of interested communities will be considered. I am sure that the hon. member realizes it would not be proper for me to make any comment on this matter at this time.



TELEVISION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. S. R. Balcom (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. What progress is being made on the television transmitting station at Halifax, and when is it likely to be in operation?


Hon. J. J. McCann (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was good enough to give me notice of his question. With reference to the transmitter, a site has been purchased on Geizer hill. Submission to council has been made for the purchase of transmitting equipment and has been approved. Drawings and specifications for the transmitter building are in preparation and should be available for submission for tenders by the end of April.
The studio site has been selected on Bell road and all local approvals have been

Inquiries of the Ministry received. Approval of the Nova Scotia government is necessary before the purchase can be completed. The plans for the building design are in preparation.
Barring unforeseen difficulties, it is expected that the transmitter will be on the air before the end of the year.



INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue? Is the government considering an extension of the deadline for filing income tax returns in the three western provinces, in view of the inability of the farmers to market their grain?


James Joseph McCann: The answer is no. The deadline is April 30, as it has been for years.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. S. Zaplitny (Dauphin):: Mr. Speaker,
I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the attention of the minister been drawn to the resolution passed by the legislature of Manitoba calling for amendments to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, which would enable farmers in Manitoba who suffered crop losses due to excessive moisture to receive further assistance? If so, is the minister prepared to recommend such amendments to parliament?


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank
the hon. member for having sent me a copy of his question. In view of the fact that it has come up on two or three occasions during this session, perhaps I should make a little longer statement than I made before with regard to it.
The Prairie Farm Assistance Act was passed in 1939 following seven years of drought on the prairies of western Canada, covering certain sections of the prairies. Because of the experience we had then, this house was persuaded to give consent to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act. The difficulties that have been experienced in Manitoba are not difficulties resulting from drought, but rather from excessive rainfall and excessive


moisture. These are difficulties which I think are prevalent right across Canada from time to time. I would think that if we were to make amendments such as those suggested in Manitoba they would have the effect in the first place of greatly increasing the payments that would have to be made not only in Manitoba, but from Manitoba through to the Rocky mountains.
Last year, as hon. members from the central part of the prairies know, there was a great deal of acreage, even on the heavy land surrounding Regina, that was without crops because they were not able to seed the land in the early part of the year. If we were to pass legislation of the kind which would meet conditions of that nature it would be most difficult to persuade the other parts of Canada to take the same action with regard to it as they took with regard to drought, which is of such a serious nature from time to time that it is almost impossible to provide any form of insurance that would take care of it, or to depend on any one province taking care of the calamity that comes when there is very widespread drought. For that reason I have written to the government of Manitoba, as a result of their having sent forward the resolution to me, and explained to them the reasons why I did not think it would be desirable to bring that proposed amendment into this house at this time, and I doubt very much whether it would be at any time unless we greatly change the policy which backs up the present Prairie Farm Assistance Act.



PUBLIC BUILDINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. N. A. Matheson (Queens):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. Can the minister say when the department will be ready to call for tenders on the new federal building at Charlottetown? Can he say whether separate tenders will be called for the clearing of the site and the construction of the new building or whether the two operations will be combined under one contract?


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Public Works):: The target date for the calling of tenders is June 1. As to the second two questions, I hope to be able to let one contract for clearing the site and constructing the building. That will depend however on our ability to get vacant possession of several properties on the site.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


Mr. Erharl Regier (Burnaby-Coquillam):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence. Can he tell us how it is possible for a 13-year-old youngster to be serving a penitentiary sentence in Canada?


Hon. Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member will give me the pertinent information, I shall be glad to look into the matter raised by him.


Erhart Regier: I meant to address my question to the Minister of Justice. Is it possible for the situation I have described to exist?


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I shall have to extend the same reply to my hon. friend as that given by my colleague the Minister of National Defence. If my hon. friend will give me the name and the particulars of the case he has in mind,
I shall be glad to look into it.


Erhart Regier: He is in St. Vincent de Paul.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
360. Departmental administration, $821,732.
The Chairman:: Hon. members will find this vote on page 51 and they will find the details on page 430 of the blue book.


Mr. Hodgson:: I have a few remarks I wish to make in connection with this department and the work they have on the agenda. I want to try to bring to the attention of the minister and his officials and of the members of the committee the need for more speed in connection with the trans-Canada highway. I also want to quote a few figures on the extent of the increase in traffic, motor vehicles and that sort of thing in Canada in the last few years, especially since 1949 when this project was first brought before parliament.
The Department of Public Works has announced that construction on the 5,000-mile trans-Canada highway was speeded up during 1953.


Mr. Winch:: Mr. Chairman, will the hon. member please speak up so that we can hear him?


William Alfred Robinson: Order.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Mr. Chairman, if you could get some of the other members to pipe down, they might be able to hear me better.
Supply-Public Works
All provinces but Quebec have signed agreements with the federal government to share construction costs. The federal government pays half the cost of sections of previously-built roads incorporated in the trans-Canada highway. During 1953 contracts were approved worth $46,343,500, more than $12 million above the 1952 figure.


Robert Henry Winters: I wonder whether the hon. member would mind telling me what it is he is reading from?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I am reading from statistics from the Department of Public Works.


Robert Henry Winters: That is what I wanted to know. Is it a released statement?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: It is a statement released by your department. That is the end of it.
At the end of the war economists felt that any prediction of 3 million vehicles in Canada by 1955 would be an overestimate. Already in 1952 we had reached that total. Now they are looking ahead to 1960 and later, and there is danger of being wrong as they were before. Some economists believe there will be 4,500,000 motor vehicles registered in Canada by 1960. I myself think the estimate is conservative. I believe we have 3,500,000 motor vehicles in Canada now. By the end of 1955 we will reach the 4 million mark. Add to this the influx of cars from the United States each year, and the congestion of traffic on our highways gives us some comprehension of the need of the trans-Canada highway now, not twenty years hence. At any rate our modern cars and trucks are in use to the point of embarrassment, and are getting more numerous all the time; and that is a challenge to this government in getting on with the job of this national project.
A study of the private services and of the public services rendered by the motor vehicle shows that a revolution has been brought about in our national transportation. A point has already been reached in use and ownership which leading authorities did not think we would attain for at least another ten years. The number of motor vehicles is ten years ahead of all predictions and traffic arteries are ten years behind.
In the annual use of their motor vehicles, Canadians now travel 12J billion miles per year. The tonnage of freight carried annually by motor transport in Canada exceeds the combined total of that carried by rail, water and air. There are 14,000 communities in this nation of ours which are chiefly dependent upon highway transportation for their very existence. If trucking were removed from industry for a brief period, the industrial machine would come to a halt in short order.

Supply-Public Works
Automotive vehicles play an indispensable role in the science of war and national defence. If we are to survive an attack on [DOT]our free world, we shall need all the mobility and powers of dispersal that automotive vehicles can give us, and most certainly a trans-Canada thoroughfare.
When confederation came into being it was quite properly believed that the railway would be the prime instrument of the country's development, that roads would be of limited local concern and should, therefore, be left entirely to the provinces to build and maintain. The fathers of confederation acted quite properly for their day and age. They were deliberating just about 35 years prior to the appearance of the first motor car in Canada. Hence roads have been principally the responsibility of municipal governments and the provinces. But the government of that day built two railroads across this continent. Without these rails of steel confederation would probably have fallen apart. It is just as important now to have a trans-Canada highway as it was to have a railroad at that time. These modern roads have become a matter of national importance. Most major traffic routes connect cities in different provinces and carry traffic to and from provinces. Eventually they will be largely interconnected in this national pattern of highways. But we are wondering: How soon? Roads are more than a provincial or municipal matter. They have become a national problem. We must have a broader area of co-operation and understanding among road-building authorities. Above all, we must have a stable and better highway policy, framed on national needs. It might be that some informal collaboration will result from the trans-Canada highway machinery. I, personally, believe that the best results will be achieved by a co-operative association of all road authorities in the interests of all. The problems that face us today dwarf the problems concerning roads of a generation ago. Every last citizen of Canada is or should be interested. The public does want this highway problem solved. People are ready to admit that they are learning by bitter experience, and that inadequate roads are a bad investment. They are paid for partly by human lives, by property damage and by costly delays. I am glad the Minister of Public Works inherited this problem from the last department in which he served, and I wish to quote a statement he made in 1949 when he was then minister of reconstruction and supply. He then moved the second reading of Bill No. 194 which was 
designed to encourage and assist in the construction of a trans-Canada highway. On November 28, 1949, he said, as reported at page 2328 of Hansard:
Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a few comments in moving second reading of the bill entitled "An act to encourage and to assist in the construction of a trans-Canada highway." Hon. members will understand that this legislation is enabling in character, in that it seeks authority for the federal government to enter into agreements with the provincial governments toward the construction of provincial highways which will join at various provincial boundaries to form a continuous road across Canada from one coast to the other and, as such, constitute a trans-Canada highway.
This project has been envisaged for many years, and it is considered that the time is now appropriate to proceed with it. When first contemplated it was conceived as a highway from Halifax to Vancouver, but it is now proposed that it shall extend from Victoria, on Vancouver island, to St. John's, Newfoundland, and also embrace Prince Edward Island.
The highway, when completed, will remain the property of the respective provincial governments, who will assume their normal highway responsibilities with respect to it, such as maintenance and snow removal. In effect, therefore, this legislation will enable the federal government to assist provinces in highway construction.
I would like to point out to the minister that the increase in motor traffic and motive power in Canada has developed much faster than many of us thought would be the case, and perhaps even faster than the minister or the officials of his department considered likely. I believe that at this time a new deal should be made and the municipalities taken into consideration, as well as the provinces, in regard to the proper maintenance of these highways. The minister did point out at one time that federal contribution to the completion of the trans-Canada highway would amount to as much as 70 per cent of the total, but I will deal with that later.
Some of that expenditure covered the cost of the old road as well as the new and probably his department has now a better understanding that further help and assistance towards the completion of this road is now required. His department should offer some encouragement to the provinces to enable them to complete this highway and they should also offer something in the way of maintenance. This highway will stretch all across Canada and will pose a major problem to each of the provinces which it crosses. We must have more push and more encouragement from the Department of Public Works.
The minister mentioned during the speech from which I have already quoted that the project had been envisaged for many years. In fact, I remember one speech he made in the house in which he stated that the government had a large package of public works

on the shelf waiting for the time when it would be required to create work and wages for the masses. I believe that time has arrived now and if there is any doubt in the minister's mind I would ask him to look at the unemployment relief lists of the different towns and cities all across Canada. If he still does not think the time is ripe to take some of these packages off the shelf, then surely he will agree that the time has arrived when we must have a trans-Canada highway. That project would help provide employment all across Canada. We must have it speeded up more in the future than it has been in the past, and we require that speed-up now.
We accelerated the program last year but even acceleration is not sufficient to complete this program within the seven-year period mentioned in 1949. When this program was started, after many years of consultation, it was considered that it would extend over a seven-year period. Four years of that time has now elapsed and less than 800 miles of this 5,000-mile highway has been completed. That leaves 4,200 miles yet to be constructed. At the rate of the last four years it will take 21 more years to complete this program, despite the fact that this highway is badly needed now.
I would urge the minister to make a special effort to get Quebec to sign on the dotted line, because it will not look very good in three or four years' time if we have the highway all across Canada with the exception of a large chunk of Quebec.
I would like to refer again to the minister's speech on November 28, 1949, as reported at page 2329 of Hansard. At that time he said that something in the neighbourhood of $300 million would be required for the 5,000 miles of the highway, and the federal government's share would be $150 million. The minister also pointed out that there was an average cost of $60,000 per mile for new construction as well as for the highway already built. Of the amount of money voted, 30 per cent has already been spent and only 17 per cent of the road completed. I would now like to quote from his remarks at the bottom of page 2329. The minister said:
Let us take, for example, a province where $20 million would be needed to complete the highway, and where that province has already spent $8 million on portions of highway which will be part of the trans-Canada highway route. The federal government contribution for the new construction would be $10 million plus 50 per cent of costs previously incurred, or $4 million, for a total contribution of $14 million. If the province applies this contribution of $4 million against the cost of completing the highway, federal money in the $20 million expenditure would amount to $14 million, or 70 per cent. On the other hand, the payment for
Supply-Public Works roads already constructed may be applied elsewhere, as determined by the province, but it is my hope that the provincial governments will use it in such a way that the maximum amount of development and the maximum amount of employment will result.
A return I received a few days ago showed! that the cost per mile has not been $60,000, as the minister estimated in 1949, but $107,344 per mile. That figure is on the basis of the amount of money spent and the miles of road completed.
We all know, of course, that the cost of any project of such magnitude as the trans-Canada highway must cost much more per mile for the first year's operation than it would cost on the average a year or so after a start has been made, but I believe this expenditure to date is out of all proportion to what the road should cost. Officials of the Department of Public Works have already provided a great deal of assistance. Last year they provided 38 engineers, 5 technical officers, 4 draftsmen, and 5 survey assistants, and the travelling expenses for these men amounted to $61,000. According to the estimates, they have indulged in photography, for I see an item here for "films, broadcasting and advertising" and opposite that there is an amount of $23,000. It seems to me it would be time enough to take pictures, and broadcast and advertise, when the road is much nearer completion. As things stand at present it will be 21 years before it is completed.
According to an announcement by the department, the work was speeded up last year and contracts were let for $46,343,500. This was $12 million above the 1952 figure. Would this speed-up put on last year have anything to do with the 1953 election? Although it looks very much like it, I trust this was not the case, and that that speed-up will extend well into 1956 and this road will then be completed. If the government is going to dilly-dally along with this project and just put on a speed-up each election year, there can be no doubt that it will take 21 years to complete.
However, I am glad to know that all the provinces, with the exception of Quebec, have signed the agreement and I trust Quebec will sign sometime next year at the latest so that the minister will not have the excuse three years from now that the highway was not completed because one province did not sign the agreement. I am sure that every member of this house and the country is anxious to have this work done at the earliest possible moment as the need is great and the progress of the country requires much more road to be built in the future than has been built in the past. We hope that the speed of last year

Supply-Public Works will be accelerated and that this highway building program will not be accelerated for election years only. I trust that the cost per mile will get down to where it belongs, to the estimate that the minister made in the first place. It should not exceed $60,000 per mile.
I know the minister will say that the provinces have everything to do with the construction. I should like him to tell the house what the fifty-two officials of his department are doing in spending $61,000 in travelling expenses and also $23,000 for films, broadcasting and advertising. They have also spent $1 million in the national parks and have not built any road there at all in spite of the fact that roads through national parks are to be constructed and paid for 100 per cent by the federal government. One province has already spent $8 million for a road which will be part of the trans-Canada highway and is spending $10 million for new construction this year.


Robert Henry Winters: That is not our statement. That is your own.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: There is no doubt about it- and I think the minister will agree with me -that construction of the trans-Canada highway has not been accelerated. It has not gone along as fast as it should have if it is going to be a seven-year program. In four years there has only been 800 miles of road built. At the rate of construction last year it will take fourteen years to finish it. As I said before, I think it is up to the department to give the provinces some encouragement, and I think there should be a new conference with all the provinces, all those that are interested in a road-building program, and the municipalities in each province which the road will go through should be brought into the conference. You should see if you cannot work out some new and better agreement to speed up construction of the trans-Canada highway.


Robert Henry Winters: I wonder whether I might say at this moment that there is a later item, 397, under which I think the trans-Canada highway might be more appropriately discussed and under which I would be very glad indeed to discuss it. I think I should say in reply to this speech that I find it a very strange one indeed and one that might more appropriately have been made in the legislature of Ontario or some other provincial government. My hon. friend well knows, because he indicated that he has read the legislation which he himself helped to pass, that the Trans-Canada Highway Act is enabling, that the responsibility for the construction of the highway rests with the provincial governments, and

that to the extent that they build the highway we are obligated by the act of parliament to contribute half the cost of construction.
We have been doing everything we can to urge on the provincial governments the desirability of making haste within the terms of the agreement. It is a seven-year period, and as recently as last December I wrote every provincial minister concerned under the terms of the agreements we have with nine of the ten provinces reminding them that the legislation would lapse on December 9, 1956, and that beyond that date parliament had given the government no authority to participate in sharing the cost of the trans-Canada highway. I reminded them that four years of the construction period have already elapsed, that only three remain, and that unless they accelerate their programs of construction they will not complete the highway in the time available to them. As I said, I also reminded them that we have no authority whatever beyond that date.
What more we can do to urge the provincial governments to meet the obligations which they themselves assumed under the terms of this agreement, I do not know. But those are the terms given to us by parliament, and I can assure all hon. members that there is no lack of desire on our part to get on with this construction program. I well recognize that in a province such as Ontario, for example, the trans-Canada highway is a very small percentage of their total highway construction program. But it is their responsibility to decide how much attention and how much effort they wish to focus on the trans-Canada highway and to what extent they wish to emphasize other phases of their highway construction program.
I have referred to Ontario on several occasions because that is perhaps the key link in any trans-Canada highway chain. There are sections in Ontario that have not been graded, and if we are going to enable automobile traffic to pass in relative comfort from one coast of Canada to the other it is absolutely essential that the link in the chain through the province of Ontario be completed. There are other provinces that have parts of the trans-Canada highway route still to be graded, but all hon. members know that Ontario is the key province in the chain of the trans-Canada highway agreement.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I should like to ask the
minister whether he does not think that the federal government should contribute something to the provinces toward maintaining this highway on account of the increase in

motor traffic that has taken place since 1949 when the agreement was first made? Give them some encouragement.


William Alfred Robinson: Would this particular question not come more properly when we reach the item concerning the trans-Canada highway? I am by no means saying that the question is out of order, but it does appear to me that particular questions would come more properly when the item is called.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I have got a lot more questions for that time, but I should like to have this one answered now. When does the minister think the highway will be finished?


Robert Henry Winters: I can only say to the hon.
nember what I have said to the provincial governments on many occasions, that this parliament has passed legislation which enables the federal government to participate with provincial governments under the trans-Canada highway agreements until December 9, 1956. Beyond that we have no authority. The terms of the legislation are specific. They enable the federal government to pay 50 per cent of the cost of construction, and it is clearly set forth that the maintenance of the road once it is constructed is the responsibility of the provinces in the same way as ownership of the highway. There was a matter of provincial jurisdiction and autonomy involved and we made it clear, and it was the wish of all provincial governments, that ownership and maintenance of the highway should be provincial matters.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The minister has not answered my question. He has officials who must have some idea. They must have given some thought to the matter. When do they think the highway will be completed?


Mr. Mclvor:: It depends on the provinces.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I guess it depends on the
moon.


Robert Henry Winters: All I can say is there has been agreement. If one can say that the provinces entered into the agreement in good faith and propose to live up to its terms, then the trans-Canada highway will be completed by December 9, 1956.


Harold Edward Winch: I have listened with a great deal of interest to the extemporaneous speech of the hon. member for Victoria, Ontario, but I want to discuss a matter of policy which is not covered under any other item of the estimates of the Department of Public Works except this one. I would appreciate it very much if the minister would explain to the house what policy is followed by the federal government in determining when they will
Supply-Public Works make a contribution toward the cost of building bridges. I was very interested in a question asked only yesterday by a member from Ontario as to the contribution by the federal government towards the cost of a bridge in Ontario. As I understood the minister's answer, it was that because the government owned or controlled a canal the government were prepared to pay one-third of the cost of the bridge.
That brings me to an important question. What is the policy of the government and what determines the government's action with respect to whether or not they will contribute towards the cost of construction of bridges? I believe the minister knows right now what I have in mind. I am discussing the Marpole bridge in the city of Vancouver. This bridge crosses a navigable river which comes under the control and jurisdiction of the federal government because it is a navigable river.
There is only one airport for the city of Vancouver, which has a twofold value. First, it has a commercial value. I believe that it is one of the most used airports in the Dominion of Canada. In view of the fact that Vancouver is on the Pacific coast, the airport has an interest in the realm of defence. This bridge is obsolete. It has been knocked out time after time by tugs and log booms. There is no question about the need for a new bridge. From my studies and my knowledge of the situation, Mr. Chairman, I am going to say that basically the bridge is a municipal and provincial responsibility. I admit that.
There is the issue, however, that the bridge crosses a navigable river and provides the only access to the airport for commercial or defence purposes, or offence, if you want to put it that way, on the west coast. I believe these considerations can reasonably bring the bridge within the realm of federal government interests. I understand the federal government is now in the process of negotiating, or has completed negotiations, to take over the Vancouver airport. I do not know whether or not it has been taken over as yet, but I understand there are negotiations to that end and the federal government has made an offer to the city of Vancouver.
I am certain I could talk for about an hour on this subject. I do not believe I have to do that because I am sure the Minister of Public Works knows the importance of that bridge. I am convinced that if there were an offer of assistance from the federal government it would accelerate the building of what I believe is one of the most necessary bridges in the entire Dominion of Canada. Although

Supply-Public Works I may have to say more about it later, and that depends upon the minister's answer, I am going to go back to what I started to say. What is the policy, and how is it determined, in regard to grants for the construction of bridges?
I shall put the question directly through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister of Public Works. What negotiations have there been in the past or are there now, and can the federal government assist British Columbia in the construction of a vital bridge over the Fraser river at Marpole?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I would
imagine that there are as many circumstances that have a bearing on policy as there are potential bridges or existing bridges. Generally, though, there are some cornerstones of policy. If a bridge is entirely within the area of a province, then it is normally regarded as a provincial responsibility. If the bridge is over interprovincial or international waters, then there is some reason for the federal government's participation and the federal government normally does participate. One example of that is the proposed Pembroke bridge, which is under discussion now, and with respect to which the federal government has told the governments of Ontario and Quebec that we are prepared to participate and co-ordinate the work if they wish to go forward with the structure.
There is another bridge across an international water at St. Stephen, New Brunswick, which I have in mind, and for which the federal government is also ready to pay a part of the cost. The fact that the water is navigable does not necessarily mean the federal government is responsible for sharing the cost of a bridge over it. Normally the federal government has a decision to make as to whether the navigable water should or not be bridged; that is a matter for decision under the Navigable Waters Protection Act.
In the case of the bridge over the Burlington canal, there were many circumstances. This canal was built by the old commission of works, I think it was called, before confederation, and has always been regarded as a federal structure. It has been maintained by the federal government since confederation. There is a railway bridge over the canal now as well as a highway bridge. It was a double bascule bridge, but one side of it was knocked out by a ship. There is a temporary fixed bridge there now. One side is still bascule, which can be raised to enable navigation to pass through. This bridge was built by the federal government. It is maintained by the federal government, so


the federal government already has an interest and responsibility there because of that involvement in the bridge.
The government of Ontario has asked permission to build a high level bridge over the canal to facilitate the flow of the very large and developing volume of traffic that must move over the canal to complete the circuit of travel. We have told the Ontario government that we are prepared to participate with them in that expenditure up to a maximum of one-third. We were prompted in that by two basic considerations, and we made one of them a condition of our participation. The first was that we be permitted to abandon our present bridge over the canal for which we are responsible and which we maintain. The other consideration was the requirement of navigation through the canal which was built by the federal government or the forerunner of the federal government.
The requirements of navigation make it necessary to build a much more expensive bridge than would be required were there no need to consider navigation. The reason is that a high level bridge will be required rather than the low level bridge which otherwise could have been built. For these reasons we felt there was a federal government responsibility. In British Columbia, at Marpole, the river is navigable and we are quite willing to give permission to British Columbia to build a suitable bridge over the river, having regard to the requirements of navigation. The water is purely within provincial boundaries. There seems to be no federal government involvement other than the potential one of the airport my hon. friend mentioned.
We have, to date, told the government of British Columbia that there is no federal government responsibility with respect to the bridge, and that we cannot participate in the cost.


Harold Edward Winch: Have you told the province of British Columbia that you will not make any grant? Do I understand that?


Robert Henry Winters: That is what we have told the British Columbia government.


Harold Edward Winch: Is that not a change of policy? I understand that in the past discussions, extending over two years, there was an offer by the federal government to participate in the expenditure. Has that been withdrawn?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of any offer. I know the history of this bridge since I have been Minister of Public Works. Since that time, in correspondence with the minister of highways of the government of British Columbia, I told him that in

my opinion there was no federal government responsibility, and that I could see no grounds for federal government participation.


Mr. Green:: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid there is some misunderstanding on the part of members of the cabinet. This subject has been discussed for quite a few years. I have here a press clipping of September 18, 1946, bearing the heading "Ottawa to aid City on Bridge to Airport", and stating as follows:
The federal government will share in the cost of a new high level bridge at Marpole-to serve the municipal airport

with the city and Richmond, Reconstruction Minister C. D. Howe told city council at a private meeting this morning.
A report covering the proposed location, type and clearance of the span is to be prepared by civic, provincial and dominion engineers.
This was the highlight of three announcements made by Mr. Howe.
That was nearly eight years ago.
Then, I have here another clipping from the News-Herald, of June 11, 1949, under the heading "Federal Aid Promised For New Bridge", and stating:
The federal government is willing to put up one-third the cost of a high level bridge across the Fraser river, says Arthur Laing, Liberal candidate in Vancouver South.
And this basis of a third by the dominion, a third by the province and a third by the city has been the basis all the way through- at least it was in the beginning. The article continues:
He said Rt. Hon. C. D. Howe, Minister of Trade and Commerce, had told1 him the money is available and the government is only waiting for city and provincial authorities to decide on a site.
Then, in 1950 I find an article indicating the holding of a conference on this subject in Ottawa. This article is dated at Ottawa, March 31, 1950, under the heading "Bridge Talks Open", and states:
Vancouver and B.C. government representatives met a federal cabinet member today in the first round of the city's fight for a new $10,000,000 high-level bridge to span the Fraser river at the foot of Oak.
B.C. Works Minister Carson, accompanied by Aid. J. D. Cornett and city engineer John Oliver, met federal works minister Fournier.
"We're just getting into the problem," said Mr. Carson, adding the delegation would meet other ministers within the next few days. Negotiations might easily continue after the delegation returned to B.C., he added.
"A very fair reception," said Aid. Cornett.
Remember, this was four years ago. The article continues:
The delegation had received strong support from B.C.'s federal members, Mr. Carson said.
Works minister Fournier, trade minister Howe and transport minister Chevrier are representing the federal government.
Supply-Public Works
Then, I find a dispatch dated November 28, 1951, under the heading "Ottawa's Offer dims Marpole Span Hopes", and stating:
Ottawa will pay only $400,000 if and when a new bridge is built over the Fraser at Marpole, B.C.'s cabinet minister in the federal government, Hon. Robert Mayhew, said today.
Mr. Mayhew said this assistance was offered by trade minister Howe and "still stands."
That was the statement in 1951 by the then representative of British Columbia in the dominion cabinet. Yet we have the present Minister of Public Works saying that the dominion will not pay one cent.
Mr. Chairman, that simply is not good enough. This bridge is used primarily for traffic to the airport-an airport which, I believe, does more business than any other in Canada. Certainly if there is any other doing more business, it would only be the airport at Dorval. Time and again people are held up by reason of the fact that this old Marpole bridge is open, perhaps to let a scow or a tug through, and it opens hundreds of times each year. I think it was only last year that the Prime Minister was delayed for half an hour or so because this span had to be opened.
As the minister knows, navigation has the right of way. When a tug comes along towing a scow loaded with sawdust, or anything of that nature, all traffic to the airport has to stop while the bridge is opened. Traffic cannot continue until the tug and scow have passed through.
If that situation existed in Montreal, Toronto or Ottawa the people in those districts would be frantic; it simply could not happen. These cities are so near the centre of government that things of that kind would not be tolerated. I suggest to the minister there is no reason why nearly a million people in greater Vancouver should be subjected to a situation of this kind. The federal government cannot get away from some responsibility. Perhaps the provincial government should take the lead-and the provincial government has announced its willingness to do that. The city of Vancouver has been willing to help all the way through.
To hear the Minister of Public Works for Canada say that he and his department are not interested, and that the federal government will not do anything about the bridge, is simply going back on a promise made years ago, and repeated year after year by responsible ministers in this same government.
I do suggest that the minister should take another look at this situation. The only possible excuse for his attitude today is that he does not know the facts, and that he does

Supply-Public Works not know what has been going on right here in Ottawa in connection with this bridge. I hope we will have assurance from him today that he will take the matter up with his colleagues and that, as a result, Ottawa will agree to do its fair share toward building a proper and modern bridge over the north arm of the Fraser river.


Harold Edward Winch: May I add a further word. I am grateful to the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra for having placed on record the newspaper comment.
When I spoke earlier I did not say some of the things that perhaps I should have said.
1 think it is known to the minister that for twenty years I was in the British Columbia legislature, and that during twelve of those years I had the honour of leading His Majesty's loyal opposition as a member from the city of Vancouver. As a member from Vancouver and also as leader of His Majesty's loyal opposition in that legislature I was, ex officio, a member of the cabinet-"ex officio";
I stress that.
However, as a result of holding that honour I did know something about the negotiations conducted in matters of this kind. I want to say through you, Mr. Chairman, to the minister, that in the past few years this matter has been of great importance to Vancouver and the province of British Columbia. It was always our understanding that the federal government was prepared to make a financial contribution toward the construction of a bridge at Marpole. The only problem ever presented to us in our meetings with the city council of Vancouver, or from a legislative standpoint, was as to where the bridge should be

whether at Marpole, Oak street or Fraser. The remarks of the minister this afternoon are the first indication I have had that they were not prepared to make any contribution financially.
I can only repeat my own words and emphasize this. Without any question of doubt there is a responsibility on the federal government. Without any question of doubt there is a commitment of more than one cabinet minister of the Liberal government that they would contribute toward the cost of a new bridge. I just want to add my word once again. We have got to have it. There is no question about it. In peace and in war we have got to have that new bridge.
I ask the minister to go over the history, study the situation and come forward with no less than one-third of the cost of a new bridge at Marpole.


Mr. Hahn:: In connection with this item,
I was pleased when the hon. members for Vancouver-Quadra and Vancouver East


raised the bridge question. In so far as the bridge is concerned, there is no doubt in the minds of British Columbians, particularly those on the lower mainland, that the federal authorities do have a responsibility, but I shall bring that problem to light later on. The hon. member for Victoria, Ontario, mentioned highways. We have a highway problem in the Yellowhead pass that will probably be dealt with by one of my associates. However, my problem in this instance happens to be something having to do with remarks that were made on March 12 by certain hon. members who intimated that this government was using electioneering as a political football: that is, that you had to vote Liberal in order to get what you wanted. I know a lot of people say, "Oh, well, that is all foolish", and so on; but in view of the fact that all those past governments or cabinet ministers have indicated that they were desirous of helping the provincial government and the city of Vancouver to build the Marpole bridge, one just begins to wonder whether there is not some element of truth in the suggestion, in so far as the province of British Columbia is concerned, on account of its having changed its particular provincial politics. I hear an hon. gentleman say, "Nonsense". It probably is. I would not place any credence in it, sir, if it were not for the fact that in the Surrey Leader of March 25, on page 7, I read this:
Liberal comeback soon, Mott tells Surrey club.
I for one know Mr. Mott very well. I have every reason to respect his thoughts and his ideas. He was a valuable servant of this government and he was a valuable servant of the people of New Westminster. My quarrel has never been with William Mott or with anyone else concerned with that same gentleman who served his province and his city so well. But I should like to read this:
William Mott spoke on the future of the Liberal party in British Columbia at the annual meeting of the Liberal Association for Ocean Park, Crescent Beach and Elgin. Meeting was held in the Legion hall at Crescent on March 12, and there was an excellent attendance.
Mr. Mott feels that there is every hope of the party making a comeback in the near future. He also stated that last year a large amount of money had been expended by the federal government in Surrey, but that this year, since George Hahn has been in office, there has been none allocated with the exception of the Annacis Island development.
Now, Mr. Chairman, if that is not a suggested reason why I should not have been elected I would like to know what it is, and I should like to have an answer to it. Certainly, it does not come out and say that you must vote Liberal or you will get no public works, but the intimation is definitely

there. I do know the Minister of Public Works well enough to realize that those are not his sentiments. At least, I have reason to believe that those are not his sentiments.
I believe such a charge should be refuted, and in no uncertain terms. That is the only reason for my rising at this time. He has treated me quite well so far as I am concerned as an individual, but it is up to him to let those who were defeated know that that is not his policy or the policy of his government, if it is not so; otherwise, we must accept the suggestion that because the province of British Columbia turned out the Liberal government and elected a Social [DOT]Credit government, no further help is coming from this government.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, may I just say one further word on the Marpole bridge before we leave it and get into maritime matters?


Harold Edward Winch: Do not leave it; give us something.


Robert Henry Winters: What I said about my conversations and correspondence with the government of British Columbia represents my thinking on the problem. It was arrived at after a careful search of the files, during which I found no binding commitment, nor indeed any commitment of any kind, requiring the federal government to participate in the cost of the Marpole bridge. I have been hearing about these reported commitments through the press, such as that quoted by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra. I simply wish to assure the committee that if my predecessor here or any of my other colleagues in good faith have committed the federal government to participation in that bridge, they may be assured that that commitment will be honoured.


Frederick George Hahn: I did not get an answer to my question regarding the inference.


Mr. Brooks:: I did not-


Harold Edward Winch: Do I understand that if there was any statement or impression left by any of the predecessors of my hon. friend of financial assistance to the building of the Marpole bridge he would honour it?


Robert Henry Winters: I said that if there is any valid commitment on the part of my-


Mr. Knowles:: That is well protected.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not want to hedge on these words. If my predecessor, or any of my colleagues, speaking on their responsibilities as members of the cabinet, have said that we will participate in the cost of building the Marpole bridge, then we will honour the
Supply-Public Works commitment; but I have been able to find on the files no record of any such commitment.


William Alfred Robinson: The hon. member for Royal.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I know the hon. members who have been trying to rise have a much greater contribution to make to this subject than I have. However, I feel I have my rights. I have been up two or three times. I want to discuss the general problem. I think there is a great misunderstanding as to just what the federal responsibility is in the matter of bridges. This Marpole bridge is an excellent example, I should think, of cases where the federal government should give assistance.
I was in Halifax a few days ago and I noted that the bridge across Halifax harbour is pretty well near completion. They expect to have it finished this year. I understand that the bridge across Halifax harbour has been the responsibility of the federal government, the local government and the city of Halifax.


Robert Henry Winters: Just the latter two, Mr. Chairman, the provincial government and the municipalities.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The federal government has made no contribution at all?


Robert Henry Winters: No contribution, no.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It is understood at Halifax that the federal government was making a contribution.


Robert Henry Winters: A great many people think that, but it is not correct.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The federal government is getting a lot of credit for something that it is not doing, which has been true in the past. An hon. member mentioned bridges connecting different provinces. In the past I have brought to the attention of this department a bridge which the people of Campbell-ton, N.B., and Cross Point in Quebec feel should be constructed. Has the minister anything to say in connection with this bridge? Is there any possibility of a bridge being constructed in that vicinity in the near future?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I may say what the situation is there. The hon. member for Restigouche-Madawaska has been very much interested in this matter, and not long ago he led a delegation to see me. We have written to the government of Quebec and to the government of New Brunswick telling them that if they are anxious to have a bridge built across-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Across the bay of Chaleur, at Campbellton.

Supply-Public Works


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, at Campbellton. We told them that if they are anxious to have a bridge built across the bay at Campbellton, we are prepared to co-ordinate the work there, and are certainly prepared to give favourable consideration to financial participation.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It would be a three-party arrangement?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes; it would be a three-party arrangement. The government of New Brunswick seemed to be quite interested. The government of Quebec at that time was involved in its legislative program and the reply we received was that they had too much work on hand at that particular moment to devote their attention to this bridge but that they hoped to be in a position to consider it at a later date, at which time they would communicate with us.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I have just a brief word to say. I know this bridge in Vancouver. I think I have a right to know the airfield. The worst bottleneck I have seen in Canada was leading up to that Marpole bridge. When I was out there the information I obtained was that the city of Vancouver expected to sell the airfield to the dominion government and that the money received would be used in building the bridge. I do not know how far that matter goes, but that is the information I had. As to the need for that bridge, I say it is one of Canada's outstanding needs, but I trust the minister to be fair.


Mr. Nicholson:: I must thank the minister for providing for a public building in my constituency. When the minister was before the committee on March 12 trying to get this item through, I mentioned the fact that a year ago provision had been made for a public building at Carrot River. The Minister of Agriculture is in the chamber and I am sure he will agree with me that Carrot River is a very important centre. Can the minister indicate whether it was an oversight that this item is not in the estimates this year whereas a year ago apparently provision was made for the building of a public building there? In a letter written to me on February 5 the Postmaster General mentioned that a public building was needed very badly. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are also servicing quite a large area. Can the minister say whether it was an oversight that Carrot River was overlooked in the supplementary estimates which were brought down at the end of the month or whether plans can be proceeded with for the construction of a public building at this important centre?


Robert Henry Winters: No, Mr. Chairman; it certainly was not an oversight. On a previous occasion I outlined to my hon. friend the policy of the department in not providing funds in the estimates for work we are not prepared to undertake during the year under consideration. That is the position we are in at Carrot River. It is a matter for future planning before we shall be able to undertake the work there.
I might say, Mr. Chairman, that I think we would have a little bit more orderly discussion here if we discussed these various provincial projects under the particular vote for the province concerned.


Frederick George Hahn: What I have to say is not a provincial matter. It has to do with the charge that was made in connection with a particular item respecting a Liberal policy. I want to know whether or not the minister wants to let the inference stand wherein Mr. Mott suggests that the reason I have not had any public works in my district is that the area did not vote Liberal. Is that the policy or is it not?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether Mr. Mott or anybody else made such a statement. These are just reports which I know the hon. member is relaying here to me in good faith; but until I know the context and the spirit in which the remarks were made, I could not pass judgment on them. I may say that all these projects are treated on their merits.


Frederick George Hahn: It is a press report.


William Alfred Robinson: I must ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the general administration of public works.


Frederick George Hahn: That is the situation. I should like to be within my rights here. I think it is a matter of administration as to the policy of the government, as set down, whereby they are going to allocate public works at certain places.


Mr. Byrne:: May I ask the hon. member a question?


Frederick George Hahn: Yes.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: In this report was it stated specifically that the reason there had not been this allocation was that the voters had elected Mr. Hahn, or was it that they had elected a Social Credit supporter? Was it a distinction as between two members or was it a distinction as to party?


Frederick George Hahn: I am sorry, but I passed the report over to the reporter.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. I would remind the hon. member that we are discussing the first item, item No. 360, of the Department of Public Works. I have allowed a fairly generous discussion, as I think hon. members will agree, but I cannot allow this discussion to go any further. I would ask the hon. members to confine themselves to a discussion of this department and not to indulge in a discussion of political matters.


Mr. Johnston (Bow River):: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. If you cannot discuss a department's policy on the first item, which is administration, just where are you going to discuss it? That is not a difficult question for the minister to answer. I have known the minister for a good long time and, as far as I am concerned, I do not think he takes politics into consideration when allotting these different projects. But let him say so now. Now is the time to make this point clear, particularly in the instance referred to by the hon. member who was speaking just a moment ago. There is no difficulty in the matter for the minister. Let him say that Mott was telling something that is not true or that he was telling the truth, one or the other.


Robert Henry Winters: If the hon. member wishes to take responsibility for statements he has seen in the press, he is acting on his own. I have already said-and I think my hon. friend heard me-that these projects are considered on their merits.


Charles Edward Johnston: No politics in it.


Harold Edward Winch: When I raised the matter of the Marpole bridge I was discussing it under item 360 because there is no specific item which covers it. I want to raise one other matter of policy and ask the Minister of Public Works a question, in view of the situation in Canada, where even according to the Minister of Finance our first six months may be on a downgrade, but he hopes that the next six months will be on the upgrade, where we have at the present moment in the neighbourhood of 500,000 unemployed. That being the situation, whether it is in a recession or in prosperity-


Robert Henry Winters: Does my hon. friend not mean 500,000 applications for jobs? I think there is quite a distinction there.


Harold Edward Winch: That is right; 592,000 applications for jobs. If the minister wants me to put it that way, I will do so. What I am coming to is this. I cannot understand why, in the architects' drawings and specifications for public buildings being constructed by the
Supply-Public Works Dominion of Canada, we specify materials coming from outside of Canada. I refer in particular, of course, to the post office in Vancouver. With all the beautiful granite and marble of varying types in Canada, why should it be necessary to specify-or why should it be done-in any government specifications that any material coming from outside of Canada should be used in the construction of public buildings? I think that is an important matter at any time, but it is a particularly important matter at a time when we have 592,000 applications for employment in the Dominion of Canada. I believe I know Canada fairly well. I know its products and resources fairly well, and for the life of me, Mr. Chairman, I cannot understand why the dominion government, through the Department of Public Works and their architectural branch, plan a building and specify marble which has to come from Italy, or some other country. As far as I am concerned it simply does not make sense. I admit it may be beautiful. You have only to inspect this House of Commons and you will find marble from many countries, but you will also find throughout this entire building granite and marble which is a product of this dominion. I cannot see why that marble and that granite produced in Canada are not good enough for the government in its specifications. Through you, Mr. Chairman, I would ask the minister whether this is strictly a matter of policy, and why, in the specifications of a multimillion dollar construction such as the Vancouver post office, they specified imported Italian marble. We have marble finishers in Canada who could be employed if we used our own marble and granite. Why cannot we have a policy of using the produce of Canada in public works constructions?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of policy the specifications of the Department of Public Works require Canadian materials consistent with economy. The particular building to which my hon. friend referred was designed for the Department of Public Works by very competent architects from Vancouver. In order to get the quality and the colour of the marble in certain public areas they specified requirements that could be met only by importing Italian marble.


Harold Edward Winch: Why?


Robert Henry Winters: Because of the type of granular structure and the appearance of the marble. It is a very small part of the total cost of the building. The total value of the marble purchased and worked in Italy will be of the order of about $60,000 which is a very small percentage of a building cost of
3946	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works some $9 million. We have endeavoured-and, I believe, succeeded to a very large extent- to use domestic materials in public works structures. There are instances from time to time where, on grounds of economy or for some technical reason, foreign materials are included; but by and large I think hon. members would agree, if they had the opportunity of examining the specifications and the tenders submitted, that we have achieved a pretty good measure of success in having local materials used in these projects.


Mr. Ferguson:: Surely it is like buying an oil painting such as a Rembrandt in order to show our people in Canada some of the beauties from other lands. The texture of the marble must be worth observing and it seems to me this is no doubt part of an educational campaign to show our people in the form of these public buildings the things which come from other parts of the world. That policy has been carried on for years and possibly the sort of material required cannot be obtained in Canada.


Harold Edward Winch: But that is not the point. Did the minister say that this building will cost $9 million?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, of the order of $9
million.


Harold Edward Winch: And the minister informs us
that out of the $9 million structure it is required to have a $60,000 importation of Italian marble. But that does not make sense to me, Mr. Chairman. The importation of $60,000 worth of Italian marble may not be a considerable item, but I would point out to you, Mr. Chairman, that the marble polishers and granite finishers in Canada could have nine months' work on that amount.


Robert Henry Winters: No.


Harold Edward Winch: Yes, I believe they would.


Robert Henry Winters: I understand the polishing
in Canada would represent about $37,000 and perhaps give work to some 45 men for about three months.


Harold Edward Winch: The minister has not contradicted me one bit. As a matter of fact, he has helped me considerably and I appreciate that. That work could go to the people of Canada and they would reap the benefit from the expenditure of this $60,000 item out of a total expenditure of $9 million. But I still cannot understand why we should import Italian marble.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


Mr. MacLean:: No, Mr. Chairman. When
this item was last being considered by the
IMr. Winters.]

committee on March 12 I was about to make some comments when the committee rose. I propose to make these comments now. First of all, I would like to congratulate the minister on his appointment to the very important portfolio of Minister of Public Works. I believe the choice is a very happy one and for a variety of reasons I am pleased that he holds that portfolio. To begin with, he is an engineer and I think the ministry of public works is a job which should be held by an engineer. I am also glad to see this portfolio come to the maritime provinces, and, without being facetious, I believe another reason why the present minister is highly qualified to hold the post is that he received at least part of his education at the university from which I myself graduated.


An hon. Member:: A great man.


John Angus MacLean: We are both great men. I
think perhaps the Prime Minister made the best possible selection when casting about for an appointee to fill this position, particularly when one considers the limitations placed upon his freedom of choice.
The minister has a very important task before him, because I believe the Department of Public Works is one of the most important portfolios in this government. It is one with which every part of the country is intimately concerned. I was pleased to hear the minister say that it is hoped that in future more of the construction work being carried out on behalf of the government will be undertaken by his department. I think that is as it should be, and I will be looking forward to the day when all public building construction, or as much as possible, will be done by the Department of Public Works. The minister's job is an important and difficult one for another reason. It is especially difficult because I think his department perhaps ranks lowest of all government departments in public esteem. As a result of its past history people have not had too much confidence in it. I think the general feeling of the Canadian people with respect to this department in past years is aptly expressed in an article found on page 6 of Maclean's magazine of November 1. The article is written by Blair Fraser and reads in part as follows:
Normally the Minister of Public Works knows a great deal about politics. Now, for the first time in human memory, he knows something about public works. Public works has been, in fact, the last surviving puddle-
He does not say how big the puddle is.
-of the great dismal swamp of politics and patronage which once engulfed the whole government service. There hasn't been an actual scandal

in the department since the 1890's, when the notorious McGreevy affair exposed a nasty situation, but though old-fashioned graft was cleaned up, old-fashioned patronage was not. Public works remained proverbial, in and out of the government service, for inefficiency and general ineptitude. This was not the fault of the harried handful of competent civil servants trying to run the department. They had to work with the blunt instruments the politicians gave them, and as the years went by they got more and more discouraged and resigned to defeat.
I am delighted to be able to hope that the department is now starting with a clean sheet and that things will be different in the future. Before I go further, may I say that I sincerely wish the minister and his deputy minister success in their attempts to bring about this very necessary improvement. Both today and on Maroh 12 a great deal of concern has been expressed about the possibility that certain parts of the country are discriminated against simply because they see fit to elect to parliament members who are not supporters of the government. I trust that is not so and that it never was so, but I know for a fact that a very large percentage of the Canadian people believe that it is so. There is no denying that they have been encouraged in that belief from time to time by certain people in this country merely for their own personal benefit.
I was delighted to hear the minister say that when consideration is given to new public works decisions will be reached on the merits of the work in question and the merits alone. I was delighted to hear the minister say that because if he makes that understood at every turn he will have gone a long way toward improving the esteem in which his department is held by the general public.
There is another matter that I wish to refer to briefly, and I was pleased to hear the minister say that there will be a change in this connection. I refer to the custom in the past of putting items in the estimates that apparently have had no meaning. It has been customary year after year for items to appear in the estimates and for the money not to be spent. The explanation that has been given is that some time before the estimates come before parliament again someone might be moved by some whim to start on some public work, and that therefore it was nice and convenient to have an item in the estimates so that they would have authority for doing so if the occasion should arise. If estimates are meaningless it makes a mockery out of considering them, and I am pleased to hear the minister say that in the future items will appear in his estimates only when it is contemplated that the work will be proceeded with in the year
Supply-Public Works ahead and before there is another opportunity to present a similar item to parliament. But that has been far from the case in the past.
As an example, I should like to cite the case of the public building in Charlottetown. To satisfy my own curiosity I examined the estimates of the last several years and I found that an item has appeared for this building in every year since 1947 to date, with a cumulative total of $1,500,000. As yet there is no visible sign of any building being constructed. I am delighted to know that the project will go forward in the year ahead. But the unfortunate thing about the recurrence of such items in the estimates is the fact that our budget is based on the estimates, and taking only the case to which I have referred the Canadian people have already been taxed to the extent of $1,500,000 for a building the construction of which has not even commenced. To me that is not good business.
I think the estimates should be real and meaningful estimates of the money actually to be spent in the year ahead. Then funds can be raised to meet the proposed expenditures from year to year. I think that is only common sense and good business. I believe the Canadian people are sick and tired of paying real taxes for meaningless estimates to build phantom buildings. There is nothing else I want to say at the present time except that I note that under this item there is a considerable increase in the amount set aside for wages. That is caused in part, I understand, by the fact that the staff has been increased by twenty-five and partly by an increase in the rates of wages. I would be very pleased if the minister, when convenient, would explain a little more fully how much of the increase is for increases in rates of wages, how much is for additional members of the staff, why additional staff is necessary and whether the addition to the staff is an addition because the department is taking over work which was formerly done by other departments or whether it is really an increase in the total number of civil servants.


Mr. Fairey:: I am sorry to revert again to the Marpole bridge but I feel that as a former member of the British Columbia civil service I was in a position to know the feeling of the people in government circles and the people of Vancouver with respect to an understanding between the federal government, the government of British Columbia and the city of Vancouver. Certainly it was our understanding that if it had not been for the procrastination of the city of Vancouver the Marpole bridge would have been built long ago.

Supply-Public Works
I can clearly recall that the Hon. E. C. Carson, minister of public works at the time when I was deputy minister of education, told me there was a definite commitment on the part of this government and all that was standing in the way of proceeding with the building of the bridge was the question of a site. He told me also that three engineers had unanimously chosen the Fraser avenue site, but they could get no agreement from the officials of the city of Vancouver.
It is true that there is no legal obligation on the part of the federal to make a contribution towards this bridge. I feel that is something we must remember. It is a matter of expediency or if you like an implied obligation on the part of this government to service the airport that caused the ministers of that day to agree that federal assistance be given, and that they were quite prepared to proceed on a three-way basis with the province and the city. That was the definite understanding.


Harold Edward Winch: A one-third contribution?


Francis Thrower Fairey: I am just giving my impression, Mr. Chairman, and the impression certainly of the most of the people of Vancouver and British Columbia. Certainly that was the impression in the minds of the officials of the provincial government. I feel I should say that. I hope that the minister will, as he has been urged by several speakers, take a second look to see if we cannot come to a settlement of this vexed question.


Mr. White (Middlesex East):: Before the item passes there are one or two questions I wanted to ask the minister. As he has said earlier, I realize that the expenditures deal with the current year and not the distant future. But upon looking over the details of the estimates I was unable to find any great increase in the amount of money that will be spent for harbours and wharves on lake Erie or lake Huron. I was looking into the future hoping that possibly in view of the proposed new seaway more attention would be paid to the facilities at these various ports. With the increasing cost of highway and railway transportation, I am hoping that water transportation on the great lakes will offer a cheaper alternative method of transportation than we have enjoyed in the past. As a consequence, I asked that question.
Upon going through the estimates of the Department of Public Works I found no mention of any item dealing with the seaway. I see item No. 444 in the Department of Transport deals with that but I presume a portion of the work will eventually be done by the Department of Public Works. I hope it is not out of order to mention that, with
[Mr. Fairey.)
all the negotiations and talk going on about the seaway, I am hoping it is not the policy of this government to try to get the United States to join with us in the building of the seaway. I believe that the policy of the government should be to do everything in its power to make it an all-Canadian seaway so we can have control of it, and it will not be one of those international things about which there is bickering all the time. We know what has happened to our tariffs. I just mention that in passing.
I see there is an item of $100,000 for the dock at Kagawong on Manitoulin island. I believe I mentioned that a year or two ago. Then we come down the great lakes and I notice there is an item of nearly $100,000 for Colchester and another item of $100,000 for Kingsville. However, I notice that there is only about $19,000 for Pelee island. Kingsville and Leamington are two ports that serve the Pelee area, but there are two docks on Pelee island, the north dock and the west dock. I have been there a good many times and know something about the area. It is increasing in importance, and there is a vast amount of agricultural wealth produced on the island. I believe these people are hoping that more improvements in the dock facilities will be made.
I suppose I really should not mention this but I heard the hon. member for New Westminster referring to political bait held out to constituencies. I feel that the minister does not want any part of that. He gets dragged into these things against his will. I was glad to hear him say that his decision as to proceeding with public works would be based on the merits of each case. I commend him for that statement. In passing I want to mention to him that during the heat of the by-election in Elgin reference was made to the fact that more could be gained for the constituency if a member on the government side were elected. Figures were brought forward that such was not the case. The new member for Elgin will be here next week, so I am not going into that any farther. Apparently the results would indicate that people do not like to be dealt with in that manner.


Mr. McCullough (Moose Mountain):: I should like to bring a matter to the attention of the committee that is of concern to all members. I refer to the shelf of public projects we were supposed to have back in 1945. I noticed from a perusal of the estimates before us there is an increase in the amount allotted this department over last year by $10 million. It is quite natural that those of us who feel that something of a dynamic nature should

be undertaken by this government to overcome the unemployment situation in this country are quite concerned about the loss in potential prosperity, if I may put it that way, due to the loss of man-hours.
Back in 1945 when I came into this house, Mr. Chairman, at the end of the war, I recall that we were faced with the question of: where do we go from here? The war was at an end and we were wondering whether the Canadian economy would retrogress into the conditions we experienced in the thirties. At that time I recall, as many other hon. members will, the government gave confirmation of the fact that they had a shelf of public projects which could be undertaken if the Canadian economy showed signs of lapsing into a condition which would bring about unemployment. This scheme of public projects sponsored by the federal government was to overcome that difficulty.
Upon returning to the House of Commons this year I find that apparently this shelf of public projects has either gone into the wastepaper basket or has been forgotten. I should like to bring to the minister's attention the fact that in Canada today we have a very grave unemployment situation. In excess of 500,000, nearly 600,000, people have registered for employment. If we want to prevent the loss of wealth which these people could produce for the Canadian economy, then it is the responsibility of the federal government to undertake a dynamic policy of public works. To make a mental calculation of what we are losing today in manhours one could take the very conservative figure of 500,000 unemployed on a five-day 40-hour week, and arrive at the colossal sum of 80 million man-hours per month that we lose.
Those of us in this group say that after all real wealth can be created only by the application of our labour force to our natural resources. One can see readily that there is nothing very dynamic in the present economic system of Canada if that is all the government has to offer. Therefore I urge the Minister of Public Works who, I know, is an excellent minister trying to do his part, to develop a public works program. I do not know what influence he has with his colleagues in the cabinet. We do know however that tremendous expenditures are being made for defence, reaching about $2 billion and, in the circumstances, I think it is reasonable, wise and expedient to use some of our public money in a vigorous public works program.
I suggest that in this connection the minister would do well to confer with his colleague the Minister of National Health and Welfare, and
Supply-Public Works that they consider what is involved in the protection of our people in a time of war when hydrogen bombs might be used. Anyone who has made any study of the subject knows that under our civil defence program there are no facilities with which we could protect ourselves in such event.
I do not know what the plans of the government were when they told us between 1945 and 1949 that they had a shelf of public works projects, but I am saying to the minister now that right at this moment it would be expedient for the government to give serious consideration to considering a real and dynamic program through which we will develop our resources and make use of that shelf of public projects by proceeding with slum clearance, the elimination of level crossings, and thus stamping out accidents at those crossings, and entering into commitments or agreements with the Minister of National Health and Welfare for the development of a program all along the line in the matter of public works. I should think this would be preferable to reducing the expenditures of last year or to the $130,776,751 indicated as the expenditures for this year.
If there are any public works projects on the shelf that could be proceeded with, in my opinion it would be expedient to go forward at once with them and thus eliminate some of the unemployment.
It is all very well for members of the House of Commons who are receiving their indemnities and who have financial security. But when we leave the House of Commons for the Easter vacation and return to our homes we will meet people whose incomes have fallen because they have been unable to sell their grain. And when the farmers are not in a position to employ help, there are many who are unemployed. To put the matter succinctly, we will find many who are unemployed. It is a most serious thing when one's income is cut off completely. The government should have sufficient vision and vitality to go ahead. If we are going to tell the world that this is a free world, and that we live in a dynamic economic society, then let us get busy and do something about it.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the Minister of Public Works one question in connection with the point raised by the hon. member for Vancouver East when he discussed the use of Italian marble in the new post office building at Vancouver. The minister will recall that I asked him a question on March 17 about this marble and he answered on March 19 indicating that Italian marble was to be used. Before plans or specifications of this kind involving the

Supply-Public Works
use of such articles from abroad are passed by the minister's department is there any attempt made to find out whether there are men unemployed in the districts where similar work is being done in Canada? Here we find men unemployed in Vancouver, and yet the minister has admitted this afternoon that if Canadian rather than Italian marble were used it would give employment to 45 men for three months. That is not something to laugh at. It means that 45 families would have had the benefit of three months' work.
When it comes to a question of whether 45 men should be given work, or whether we should have marble of a little finer texture in a post office, I think the only reasonable decision would be to give the men work. I presume what happened was that the Vancouver architect wanted to have a fine monument to himself, and with this in mind he called for the fine Italian marble. Then when the specifications reached Ottawa the officials here did not bother to make any change or to find out whether or not there were men in Vancouver who were out of work.
Is it the policy of the department to make inquiries about those who are out of work before it approves specifications which will mean giving work to people living in other countries?


Harold Edward Winch: Is any study made by the minister's experts as to the availability of products of a type similar to those to be imported? I ask that question because I believe there is in the constituency of the hon. member for Okanagan Boundary quantities of marble and granite of similar texture and hardness to that imported from Italy. Was any investigation made on that point, or was there any study given to it?


Robert Henry Winters: Replying to the question of the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, the answer is yes. All public projects are undertaken having due regard to the labour situation in the area. I think perhaps the hon. member may be placing the emphasis in the wrong place. On the positive side is the fact that we are building a $9 million building in Vancouver, and that this will provide a substantial body of employment. I suggest it is not quite fair to attempt to emphasize the relatively few people who would be employed if we were to do certain other things.
Surely the main consideration is that we are building a very large building at a cost of over $9 million, and thereby providing a considerable amount of employment that otherwise would not be available if the building were not being erected. I can assure my hon. friend that we have gone to considerable extremes in other fields to ensure

that Canadian materials are used, and that the Canadian content of labour in this $9 million structure is kept at a very high level, indeed.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I shall have to interrupt proceedings to point out that it is now five o'clock, and that the house will proceed to the consideration of private and public bills.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 418, to incorporate Baloise Fire Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Cannon.


Mr. W. G. Weir (for Mr. Sluder) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 420, to amend the Representation Act.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, in spite of the fact that I have not seen a copy of this bill, although it looks as though I am going to see one in a few seconds, I have no objection to the second reading being called today. Perhaps the hon. member who is sponsoring the bill in the absence of the hon. member who introduced it might be willing to let it stay in committee of the whole so that we can have a look at it, after the printed copies have been distributed. That would facilitate its getting third reading the next time public bills are called.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 1-Swift Current-Maple Creek.
Howard Charles Green: May we have an explanation?


Mr. Pickersgill:: I will be glad to give a brief explanation. It appears that when the act was passed last year to change the name of the constituency of Swift Current to "Swift Current-Maple Creek" there was not a second clause put in it to make the change in the Revised Statutes of Canada, so that it applied until the revised statutes came in by proclamation, I think on September 15, but it is no longer the law. I think it was clearly intended by parliament that it should have been. It was simply an omission in drafting last year. The purpose of this bill is to correct that omission in the Revised Statutes of Canada, and it has no other purpose whatsoever.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaiie):: When shall the bill be read a third time?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Despite my suggestion a moment ago that the bill might stand over, now that we have had a chance to look at it, and since it is obviously so simple, there is no objection to third reading now.
Bill read the third time and passed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

[Stage Direction]
360.	Departmental administration, $821,732.
Mr. Jones:: I should like to make a few remarks with respect to the discussion that took place before five o'clock regarding the use of Canadian products in public buildings. It is well known that the only real consumer of marble in Canada is the government itself. Most structures are built of cheaper products, stone, wood, brick and so on, especially concrete. With the government itself showing a bad example by importing marble from Italy, it kind of upsets the whole economy, particularly in my own part of Canada where we are very proud of the type of marble we can produce. In the interior of British Columbia, in the Kootenays and Okanagan valley, we can equal marble or any other stone produced in Italy or in any other country, and we are proud of that. At the present time we consider them depressed industries. Many of the quarries are closed down for lack of customers; many of the quarries have been pretty well closed down for the last ten years for that same reason; but recently the government itself was seeking a hard stone for an extension to the post office in Penticton, and they came to the conclusion that the stone that had already been in use in the old buildings for forty years or fifty years was the best stone that they had seen.
That is the impression given to me by the architect. This particular stone is produced in abundance. There is a vast deposit of it not far from Penticton. I understood at the time, two years ago, that the government were anxious to acquire the rights to that particular quarry. Whether they did so or not, I am not sure. But if they did, they
Supply-Public Works certainly have first-class stone equal to anything they can bring to this country from Italy.
On behalf of that depressed industry I would suggest that the government, before a contract is let for any more marble or any more hard stone from any other part of Canada, take steps to find out what we have in the province of British Columbia. If they do not wish to go to the expense of doing that, I may say that the provincial government already has all the information with regard to these various marbles and the hard rock that we have in such abundance. I would suggest to the minister that, in fairness to our province and before he places an order again for marble, he should take steps to find out whether a similar product is available in the Okanagan valley, the Kootenay valley or one of the other valleys in British Columbia.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: The outstanding example in Canada today where local stone or Canadian stone has been used is this House of Commons. When you look at this building you see this beautiful stone which comes from Tyndall, Manitoba. That fact shows that the government is right on the job.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Architectural branch-
361.	Branch administration, $701,299.
Howard Charles Green: This item covers branch administration of the architectural branch. Turning to the details on page 431 we find a list of people who are working in that branch. I take it from these figures that there are 28 architects, 23 engineers and 23 technical officers. Can the minister tell us whether or not those figures are correct?


Robert Henry Winters: I assume that my hon. friend has totalled the figures shown on page 431. I accept them as being correct. I have not totalled them myself.


Howard Charles Green: Are these people all employed in Ottawa?


Robert Henry Winters: The answer to that question is yes.


Harold Edward Winch: What is the position of a member of this house if he wants to get from the architectural branch some information on plans and specifications and calling for tenders? The reason I raise this question is this. I am naturally interested in the Vancouver post office because I am a member from the city of Vancouver. Over a period of almost months now I have received communications from various unions asking about the type of architecture, about the construction, how much is granite, how many floors there are

Supply-Public Works and various other questions. I wanted to answer those questions. Several weeks ago I got in touch with the architectural branch of the Department of Public Works with regard to the post office. I asked if I could see the actual plans and specifications. That was weeks ago. I have never seen any plans or specifications to this date. Are they secret or what? When I, a member of the House of Commons, ask to see plans and specifications, why cannot I be allowed to see them?


Robert Henry Winters: There is no reason why not. A member of the House of Commons is quite entitled to see the plans and specifications of a building, once those plans and specifications are complete. Would the hon. member care to tell me-and perhaps he would care to do it privately-to whom it was he spoke? I should be glad to discuss the matter with him.


Harold Edward Winch: It was your chief architect.


Robert Henry Winters: The chief architect says that the plans and specifications have not been refused.


Harold Edward Winch: I have not got them.


Mr. Harkness:: I notice that there is a considerable increase in the number of personnel, from 128 to 158. I refer particularly to the point that I think the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra was making. Quite a part of this increase in personnel is accounted for by an increase in the number of architects. Can the minister explain the reason for this increase amounting to over 20 per cent in the number of personnel required for branch administration in the architectural branch? Is there a great deal more building projected than was the case previously or is this chiefly for planning for what used to be called the shelf of public projects for the future? Or what is the general explanation?


Robert Henry Winters: The reason for the increase is to try to make our program of planning a little more current. We had a backlog because of the difficulty of obtaining architects and technical assistants. On more than one occasion my hon. friend has referred to the number of re votes. We are endeavouring to bring the program up to date, to get some of these revotes out of the estimates and to get on with the program of new work.


Douglas Scott Harkness: In other words, this increase is to put current work into operation, as you might say?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes; that is correct.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Rather than for future planning?


Robert Henry Winters: That is correct.


Mr. Dinsdale:: I am wondering whether it is the policy of the Department of Public Works to look after all the architectural functions for these various activities across the country or whether in some cases this work is handed out to private firms in the local area where the work is to be done?


Robert Henry Winters: There are many instances in which buildings are designed for the department by private architects. That is part of the department's policy.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Is it the policy in the public works department to do most of the architectural work or do they call in the private architects only when the departmental officials are not able to handle the quantity of work involved?


Robert Henry Winters: The general policy has been for the department to do the smaller buildings. Normally one design of building will serve the purpose of two or three different communities. It is standard practice to use that design to the extent that we can do so, having in mind the need to blend any building into the community. The larger buildings have almost invariably been designed by private architects because we regard that work as being beyond the capacity of our people to deal with, having in mind the heavy load of smaller work that is on them. When judged in the light of dollars and cents I would think the division would be just about even; I would think that about half of it would go to the private architects and that half of it would be done by our own people. It would be something of that order.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
362.	Ottawa-maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $500,000, $14,996,664.
Howard Charles Green: This item has to do with buildings in Ottawa. Can the minister explain why extensive repairs and improvements are being made to the old printing bureau? I understand that the new printing bureau is to be occupied next year; I refer to the new building in Hull. But in spite of that fact, there is a good deal of face-lifting going on in the old red building behind the Chateau Laurier. I believe the plan is to tear it down, but they are now installing new fluorescent lighting and the offices are being altered and redecorated, a new intercommunication system installed, and repairs being made to the brick work. Will the minister explain why public funds are being

used for that purpose in view of the fact that the new building is to be occupied next year? We are all aware that the new building will cost quite a few million dollars and that in itself will be a big enough bill for the taxpayers to meet, and it does seem to me a little rough to be adding on a bill for fixing up the old building when it is to be vacated in any event.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the new
building for the printing bureau in Hull will not be occupied for another two years. In the meantime it is necessary to maintain the present building and the repairs, which are relatively minor, consist of some brick work. I also understand that the printing bureau has a requisition for some 400-odd fluorescent lamps which will be necessary during the period they will be in the building, which will be another two years in any event.


Howard Charles Green: How much are these repairs and the new equipment going to cost?


Robert Henry Winters: There is an amount of $2,300 for the repair of the brick work, but I have not the cost of the 400 fluorescent lamps before me now.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister provide that figure?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: And also the figure for _the alteration and redecoration of the offices, and for the new intercommunication system which has been installed.


Robert Henry Winters: I know of no intercommunicating system. Perhaps my colleague the Secretary of State is aware of that. In any event, I will get the answers to the other questions.


Howard Charles Green: There may be some alterations about which I have no knowledge, and perhaps we could be informed of the total amount which has to be spent.


Harold Edward Winch: I may be out of order on this, Mr. Chairman, but it will only take a moment. It has to do with the question of maintenance. Might I suggest to the minister, through you, sir, that he call in some lighting engineers and experts in regard to the lighting in this chamber. It is bad.


Robert Henry Winters: May I just say, Mr. Chairman, that that matter is in hand. We have in mind a program to make a survey of all the lighting in the building.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Chairman, item 362 is a small item but I notice half-way down page 433 there is an item of $49,638 for 1954-55 as against $22,240 in 1953-54 and
Supply-Public Works which covers "foremen of char service". This service has been more than doubled. We have 18 for next year but we had only eight for 1953-54. I also note that the number of cleaners and helpers is about the same. Perhaps the minister will tell us why there has been this substantial increase in the "foremen of char service"? It seems to be out of all proportion.


Robert Henry Winters: The only answer I can give at the moment, Mr. Chairman, is that we have acquired a considerable amount of additional space during the year. I have not the detailed statement but perhaps if my hon. friend will permit 1 will bring him a detailed statement after the dinner recess.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The item does not show that we have employed more cleaners and helpers.


Robert Henry Winters: There are more.


Howard Charles Green: In the details for this item at page 435 there are some quite substantial increases and I would like the minister to explain them. For example, professional and special services cover $186,750 which is an increase of about $56,000 over last year. Could the minister tell us why there is this increase and exactly how that money is to be spent? Then "moving government departments and services" has increased from $100,000 to $150,000; furniture and furnishings for government departments show a total of $1,123,000 compared with $1,027,500. Materials and supplies are up about $90,000; repairs and upkeep of buildings including materials required therefor are up by $500,000; rents are up by about $40,000; light, power, water and other public and municipal services are up by $123,000. Will the minister explain why there have been these increases, and also give us some details of these items?


Robert Henry Winters: Under the first item to which my hon. friend for Vancouver-Quadra referred, professional and special services, there is an increase of $57,200. That increase covers the employment of window cleaners from outside firms and the amount is $68,000 compared with $23,000 in 1953-54. We have in mind a program of having some of this window cleaning done by outside services. It is now being done on a day labour basis. We are going to do some experimenting in that field to see whether we cannot overcome the problem by inviting tenders from people who specialize in char services. We will then compare results with the present method. We have increased the vote for that purpose. That is really the only large item.


Howard Charles Green: Where can we find the same item for last year? Did it come under casual help?

Supply-Public Works


Robert Henry Winters: It came under casual help last year.


Howard Charles Green: And casual help is up $45,000?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, but this is due to additional occupation. Each new building we occupy requires more casual help.


Howard Charles Green: Could we have further details on the items I mentioned?


Robert Henry Winters: Moving government departments and services?


Howard Charles Green: I mean the rest of the charges for professional and special services.


Robert Henry Winters: The rest of the charges are these: Rideau Hall-Dominion Electric Protection Service $650; Rideau Hall-sprinkler system-Dominion Messenger and Signal Company $300; Rideau Hall-control of rodents $200.


Howard Charles Green: What?


Robert Henry Winters: Rats.


Stanley Howard Knowles: How much per rat?


Robert Henry Winters: Then there is the item I mentioned, window cleaning $68,000; electrical protection-Dominion Electric Protection, sprinklers, etc. $65,000 which is the same as last year. The general item of control of rodents in buildings around Ottawa amounting to $14,000 compares with $17,000 for last year, a saving of $3,000.


Howard Charles Green: That is a break for the rats.


Robert Henry Winters: It is a break for the taxpayers too. Then we have payments to tenants to clean corridors, remove garbage, etc. $12,000; the Prime Minister's residence -payment to steward as representative of public works department in household $1,000, which is the same as last year; House of Commons-operation of sound reinforcement system $20,000, the same as last year; then the Bell Telephone-clockline service $600 compared with $800 last year; and then we have an item for contracts for deodorizers $5,000.


Howard Charles Green: Is that for the cabinet or the government?


Robert Henry Winters: It is for buildings generally.


Mr. Richard (Ottawa East):: Is it the intention this year to do all the window cleaning by contract? I know that some of it has been done by contract every year, but is it the intention to do all window cleaning by contract this year?


Robert Henry Winters: No, it is not. This is just to provide a further amount for additional contract work we wish to do, but it is not the intention to do it all this year.


Howard Charles Green: What about the other items in this vote which are increased?


Robert Henry Winters: In the item for moving government departments and services there is an increase of $50,000. This item provides for payment to moving companies for moving furniture, files, etc., from one building to another. Each year considerable reassignment of accommodation takes place in Ottawa, and for the fiscal year 1954-55 a considerable number of moves are foreseen.


Howard Charles Green: The minister has not dealt with the others yet. What about furniture?


Robert Henry Winters: In furniture and furnishings for government departments there is an increase of $95,500, or 9 per cent. Much of this furniture is for the new veterans affairs building which will be occupied this year. Would my hon. friend like me to itemize some of these?


Howard Charles Green: All right.


Robert Henry Winters: For furniture for various departments, replacements and new furnishings for expanding services there is an amount of $962,500 compared with $876,000 last year. For Venetian blinds the amount is $25,000, the same as last year; upholstering and furniture repairs, $15,000, the same as last year; the Prime Minister's residence, furnishings, $2,000, a decrease of $2,000 compared with last year; Rideau Hall, rugs and carpets and material for drapes and slip covers, $2,500, the same as last year; Rideau Hall, replacement of furniture, $25,000, the same as last year.


Howard Charles Green: How much?


Robert Henry Winters: $25,000, the same as last year.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are they spending $25,000 a year on furniture?


Robert Henry Winters: I would hope that would not be every year. My hon. friend doubtless has been there and has seen the furniture. It has been there for many years and is in need of repair and replacement. I have seen it myself and I quite concur that some considerable renewals are necessary.


Howard Charles Green: Is that to be $25,000 a year?


Robert Henry Winters: No, that is just the vote for this year.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: And last year.


Robert Henry Winters: Then we have Laurier House, repair of furniture, $1,000, the same as last year; House of Commons, reupholstering and repairing seats in diplomatic and side galleries, $6,000; House of Commons, furniture, rugs, filing cabinets, coolers and fans, $35,000, the same as last year; House of Commons,

repairing standard electric fans, $2,000, the same as last year; House of Commons, new hall clocks, $2,000, the same as last year; the Senate, furniture repairs, $10,000; the Senate, furniture, rugs, coolers, fans, etc., $20,000. These are the main items of expenditure.


Howard Charles Green: What about materials and supplies?


Robert Henry Winters: There is an increase of
$91,050, or 6 per cent, over last year. That consists of lamps and supplies, $66,000 compared with $63,000 last year; Laurier House, supplies for char service, $150, the same as last year; Laurier House, fuel, $1,200 compared with $1,300 last year. Then we have heating supplies, $995,000 compared with $964,000 last year; Rideau Hall, fuel, $22,000 compared with $22,700 last year; Rideau Hall, repairing and replating of silverware, repairs to kitchen equipment, $2,000 compared with $2,500 last year; Rideau Hall, supplies for greenhouses, $6,500 compared with $6,000 last year; Rideau Hall, china and glassware, $2,000 compared with $4,000 last year.


Howard Charles Green: Is that an annual item?


Robert Henry Winters: No. It is as required for the year. Rideau Hall, new beds and bed linen for household staff, $2,000; uniforms and caps, $12,000; experimental farm, fuel, $151,000; flags and decorations, $15,000; House of Commons, supplies for parliamentary restaurant and cafeteria, $15,000, the same as last year; ice, $8,000, the same as last year; fire extinguishers and refills, $18,900; supplies for char service, $220,000, the same as last year; Prime Minister's residence and coach house, fuel, $1,900.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have a question pertaining to this very matter. I note that quite a substantial amount is spent in replacing furniture, carpets and so on in the public service. When you replace furniture, what happens to the old furniture? How do you dispose of it? Is it sold or is it taken to the incinerator and burned? What happens to it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is taken out of Liberal offices and put in opposition offices.


Robert Henry Winters: My Liberal friends say that just the reverse holds true. Some of it of course is repaired and put back into use. Furniture that cannot be used further is declared surplus to Crown Assets Disposal Corporation and disposed of by my colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who is responsible for Crown Assets Disposal Corporation.
Supply-Public Works


Charles Edward Johnston: Does that apply to furniture and things of that sort?


Robert Henry Winters: Oh yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: Crown Assets Disposal Corporation handles that too?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


Harold Edward Winch: I have a question which I feel certain is in the minds of many members but perhaps they do not want to speak about it. What is in the mind of the minister with respect to the office accommodation of members of the House of Commons? In the majority of cases there are two members to an office at the present time, and I think that in all such instances they get along quite happily. But it does not make for efficiency in the work of members of the House of Commons.


Robert Henry Winters: Have you any particular members in mind?


Harold Edward Winch: Two members cannot be dictating to two stenographers at the same time without there being confusion. If one member has any visitors it disturbs the entire office. I think every member of the house who is in the position of occupying an office jointly with another member knows the problem. It is a very serious one, not only from the point of view of the efficiency of members of the House of Commons but also with respect to the impression that the general public gets from reading press comments about members not being in the house itself. It is my own personal experience that when two members occupy the same office they split up in shifts so that each can have the office to himself for a while in order to do his work and give his dictation. You cannot be both places at once. Every member knows that is the situation.
It is not fair to members of the House of Commons so far as their work is concerned and the reaction of the press is not fair in pointing out that often over half the members are not present in the house. We know that in the majority of cases they are in the building because when the division bell rings they take their seats in the house. I think one of the big problems is the matter of office accommodation for members. I believe that this vote is the proper place to raise the question, and I should like to ask the minister whether he has anything in mind that will bring about a better distribution of office space for members of the House of Commons.


Robert Henry Winters: I agree with much of what the hon. member for Vancouver East has said. I know there is a great deal of congestion, and I know that many members are
3956	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works working under conditions that are not conducive to the best over-all efficiency. I must say that if my hon. friend had not brought it to my attention I would not have noticed he was working at reduced efficiency himself.
We are in the process of negotiating now for the services of an architect to do a complete job on remeasuring the west block, which is a very old building. The plans have been lost, and the building must first of all be measured. Then we propose to get a competent architectural opinion on how that building could be rebuilt, if necessary, so as to provide the best utilization of space. Once the building is rebuilt, then I would imagine Mr. Speaker would have in mind moving to the west block many of the facilities that are presently housed here in the centre block. Some action has already been taken to that end, and I would hope that we could look forward to the day when many more facilities would be housed in the west block thereby releasing accommodation in this centre building for the use of members.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I notice that included in this item the minister has an amount of $998 to be paid to thirteen persons listed as caretakers of tower clocks, part-time. I presume that it is the caretakers that are part-time and not the clocks. Could the minister tell us where these people work? The amount averages out to about $76 per year per person, and perhaps an explanation could be given. The item appears on page 437, about ten lines down.


Robert Henry Winters: It is an outside Ottawa vote.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am sorry, my page did get turned over, but perhaps the minister could answer in any event.


Robert Henry Winters: It is on page 437, and relates to caretakers of tower clocks, part-time. It is an additional payment to those janitors in post offices where there are tower clocks, for looking after the tower clocks. This item is for the whole country.


Stanley Howard Knowles: This average of $76 a year is in addition to another salary.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Mr. Nesbitt:: I was interested in listening to some figures the minister was reading. I noticed there was an item of $8,000 for ice. I should like to know whether there is an ice manufacturing plant in the House of Commons here, or does the ice have to be purchased?


Robert Henry Winters: This ice is purchased from private ice manufacturers.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: I presume it is artificial ice rather than natural ice. If it is costing $8,000 a year to supply ice, could not an ice manufacturing unit be installed that might over a period of time be less costly?


Robert Henry Winters: The item covers the supply of ice to buildings all around Ottawa. It is possible, I imagine, that the establishment of a plant has been studied. I have not studied it myself. The amount of $8,000 is not very large when one thinks in terms of the expense of installing ice making machinery.


Howard Charles Green: The minister has not yet dealt with repairs and upkeep of buildings, which is up nearly $500,000; rents are up by $40,000; light, power and water and other public and municipal services are up by $123,000. Could he explain those large increases?


Robert Henry Winters: I could list the items and the increases. Repairs and upkeep of buildings, including materials required therefor, an increase of $490,890 or 19 per cent; Rideau Hall, painting and repairing various buildings, $3,000; that is down $1,000 from last year. Rideau Hall, pointing stonework; that is the same as last year. Rideau Hall, painting and repairing greenhouses, $2,000; that is the same as last year. Reconstruction of verandah of Rideau cottage, $3,000; repairs to laundry building, $2,000; Rideau Hall, repairs to roof of Government House and other buildings, $2,500; Rideau Hall, installation of oil burners in orderlies' cottage, main garage and carpenter shop, $1,800. Rideau Hall, new baking oven for main kitchen, $1,000. Rideau Hall, painting in interior of Government House and Rideau cottage, repairs and alterations to carpenter and paint shop, repairs and painting boiler rooms, $4,500. Rideau Hall, renewal of certain water mains, $1,000. There is a long list of miscellaneous small items.
The increase generally is due principally to provision being made for exteriors, painting of government owned buildings at an estimated cost of $100,000; electrical repairs in House of Commons, that is replacement of primary electrical switch gear, at a total estimated cost of $100,000; elevator power conversion and renewals at a total estimated cost of $200,000.


Howard Charles Green: In the House of Commons?


Robert Henry Winters: That is for elevators in buildings throughout Ottawa, changes from direct to alternating current. Then there are alterations to the Daly building when vacated and reassigned, at a total estimated cost of

$100,000. There is an increase of $123,150 in the allotment, power, water, etc., due to provision being made for new buildings and rentals.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I notice on page 443 an item for the national library which is increased this year from $50,000 to $150,000. I wonder whether the minister could make a statement on the progress being made in this project?


Robert Henry Winters: I think that is in another vote. It is on page 443, and will come under a later item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
363. Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $800,000, $20,843,057.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to say a few words under this item with respect to the rates of pay in the case of women cleaners, particularly those working in the federal buildings in the city of Winnipeg, who come under the direction of the Minister of Public Works. I am sure that he is well aware of what I am going to say because we have had a fair amount of correspondence concerning this matter. I only hope that by raising it on the floor of the house I might be more successful than I have been in taking the matter up with him by letter.
As the minister knows, when the five-day 40-hour week was instituted for civil servants generally-I refer to the time previous to the occasion when the five-day 40-hour week came into effect for postal workers-that had an effect on the wages received by the women cleaners in the city of Winnipeg which, from their standpoint, was most unfortunate, and I would say it was most unfair. Previously they had been working five and a half or six nights a week, and they were paid on an hourly rate. When the people working in the offices which were cleaned at night by these women went on the five-day week, naturally there was no point in having the cleaning women coming in on the sixth night and cleaning up the offices when those offices had not been occupied during the day. Therefore they, too, went on the five-day week.
Well, they did not mind going on the five-day week, but it was a rather tough blow for them to suffer an actual reduction in their weekly take-home pay as a result of that change. In the correspondence I have had with the minister he has suggested to me that I would not want people to be paid for work they were not doing. I suggest that that was a case of begging the question. The fact of the matter is that other employees of 83276-250
Supply-Public Works the government who went on the five-day 40-hour week did not suffer any loss in take-home pay. The purpose of the five-day 40-hour week was not to effect a reduction in pay but rather to improve the working conditions of the employee.
Generally speaking that change to the five-day 40-hour week for government employees was effected without any reduction in take-home pay. I have not the page references in Hansard before me at the moment, but I can say that during the course of this session I have inquired, through the medium of the order paper and by obtaining answers on the pages of Hansard, as to whether there are any other government employees in whose case the fact of going on the five-day 40-hour week resulted in a reduction in pay. The answers given to me suggest that this was the only group.
I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this is quite unfair, and that something should be done about it. If the minister insists that these people are on prevailing rates and that that makes it impossible to prescribe that they shall now get per week what they got before, the problem could be solved by an increase in the hourly rate sufficient to bring these women up to the same amount of pay they were receiving before.
I know some people think of these women who do this work as though they were in parttime unemployment, or doing casual work. I do not presume to speak for what goes on in other cities, but I do know that these women who are working in the minister's department in Winnipeg are regular, year-round full-time employees. I know some of them personally who have been in this work for ten or fifteen years or more. So they are not to be thought of as casual or temporary employees, whatever their precise legal status may be. They have an arrangement for holidays; one they did not have some years ago, but an arrangement we were able to win for them. They pay unemployment insurance premiums, and they pay into one or other of the superannuation funds. To all intents and purposes they are just as permanent employees of the federal government as are any other employees.
I urge strongly upon the minister that the situation be reconsidered and that the necessary increase be made so that these women may continue to receive at least the same amount they were receiving before the five-day 40-hour week was instituted.
In the course of the correspondence the minister and I have had concerning this
3958	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works matter he has informed me that the usual survey has been made by the Department of Labour to determine whether or not the rates being paid to these people corresponded with the prevailing rates for comparable work in the same area. He has not been at liberty to indicate to me what is contained in the reports made to him by the Department of Labour, but he has suggested to me that these reports have indicated that his department was doing as well for these women as is the case with women doing comparable work in Winnipeg.
My information is not quite the same as that the minister appears to have received. I am told that women doing comparable work for the T. Eaton Company in Winnipeg are on a 40-hour week and that their rate of pay is seventy-five cents an hour or more. At the Hudson's Bay Company in Winnipeg the rate is exactly the same, seventy-five cents an hour; and, likewise, that is the rate for those working for the Canadian National Railways. Those who are cleaning in public buildings for the city of Winnipeg receive eighty-five cents an hour, and again they are on a basis of a 40-hour week. Women doing this kind of work for the Winnipeg public school board are paid on a monthly rate at the figure of $149 per month.


John Whitney Pickersgill: What about the provincial government?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am sorry I do not have that information, but I have no objection to the suggestion by the Secretary of State that it should be taken into consideration. I hope, however, that he is not trying to show up the provincial government as being a poor employer.


John Whitney Pickersgill: Just a matter of curiosity.


Stanley Howard Knowles: But as compared with these rates of seventy-five and eighty-five cents an hour, the rate paid to the women cleaners who work in Winnipeg for the Minister of Public Works is sixty-five cents an hour for a week of thirty-seven and one-half hours in the dominion public building, and sixty-five cents an hour for a thirty-hour week in the commercial building. There are still other buildings that come under the minister's supervision. There is the old post office building, and some others. While the hours per week may vary, I believe the sixty-five-cent rate carries right through.
I could continue the discussion on this point, but it seems to me I have made it clear. I do hope some favourable consideration will be given to increasing these rates so that these faithful employees of the government will not receive less than they were receiving before the five-day 40-hour week came into


effect. It seems to me two things are involved; One is the actual rate of pay and the other is that justice should be done.


Robert Henry Winters: Before recess, Mr. Chairman, may I say just a word. I have every sympathy for the point raised by the hon. member, who has been so interested in the pay received by these charwomen. The position is as he stated It. We have exchanged correspondence in which I informed him of the facts he has put before the committee. They are hourly rate employees. The Department of Labour conducted a survey at the time the hours were decreased to see whether a re-rating was justified. It is true there are private employers in the city of Winnipeg who pay more, but it is also true that the majority of private employers pay less.
After making a very exhaustive survey, the Department of Labour told the Department of Public Works that there was no ground for recommending an increase in the rate at the present time, but that the matter would be kept under review.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is it government policy to match the minimum rate in the field?


Robert Henry Winters: It is to match the rate of good employers in the district.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
William Alfred Robinson: When the committee rose at six o'clock we were discussing item 363. Shall the item carry?


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I have one or two words with the minister? At six o'clock we were discussing this question of the wages paid to women cleaners working for the Department of Public Works at Winnipeg. The minister said it was the policy of the government to match the best employers in the field.


Robert Henry Winters: No, I did not say that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What did the minister say?


Robert Henry Winters: I said "good employers".


Stanley Howard Knowles: All right; I will accept that. He said it was the government's intention to match the good employers. Are not the good employers the ones who pay good wages?


Robert Henry Winters: What I said is a pretty good definition of the position. There is a difference between good, better and best, as my hon. friend well knows.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute; that puts the government a long way down. Better is better than good and best is better still. So he puts himself in the third category. Seriously, I hope the minister will have this matter looked at again. If he cannot cut through the red tape but has to have another review made by the Department of Labour, I ask the minister to have such a review made in the light of the figures I put on the record this afternoon showing that other women in Winnipeg doing comparable work are getting better pay.


Robert Henry Winters: I have no objection to that, Mr. Chairman. I told my hon. friend that the matter was under constant review. We have every sympathy with the position of the charwomen in Winnipeg. The position was examined and it was then found that some employers were paying more to charwomen than our charwomen were receiving, but a great many of them were paying less, and on that basis the Department of Labour, which is the department that guides us in these matters, recommended that the rate be not changed at this time.
In reply to a question asked earlier by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra about the printing bureau I might say that the Department of Public Works has no request at the present time for electric fixtures but we have received a request for 400 fluorescent lights. These are being stocked to assure replacement of burnt-out tubes and to keep the replacement stocks in the building at a proper level. The replacement of tubes is high due to the long hours of operation at the bureau. The cost is approximately 69 cents each, so 400 comes to $276.
As to requisitions for work, a requisition was filed for resurfacing the press room floor and adjacent hall area with mastic in June, 1953, at a cost of $3,600, and that is the only requisition we have had.
An hon. member asked a question about foremen of char service and pointed out the fact that the list showed eight last year and this year there are eighteen. There are no new bodies, but ten positions of cleaner and helper have been reclassified by the civil service commission as foremen of char service.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I should like to return to
the subject of architects' service, for a moment. The minister has indicated that in some instances private architects are used. That being so, I should like to know the procedure involved in applying for work on government projects. The reason I ask is that a local firm has been in touch with 83276-250J
Supply-Public Works me and they claim that they have been given the information from the department that in order to participate in work from the Department of Public Works it is necessary to get in touch with the local member and he makes the approach, and it is all the better if that member is a Liberal member. I do not think that is a proper function for a member of parliament to make overtures to the branch on behalf of architects.


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member has done it. If it is not proper, then the hon. member has acted improperly.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I have had some correspondence on this matter because of the information that came to me, and I realized that under the administration of the minister this policy would not be carried out. I should like to have him indicate it so that it can be on the record and I can indicate to this firm that such is not the policy.


Robert Henry Winters: Hon. members, such as the hon. member for Brandon-Souris, imply from time to time that Liberal members are the only ones who make requests of the minister. I might say that he is one who has made a request of me, in this case to have an architect, a friend of his, employed and I can see nothing very much wrong with that. But I do want to say that I receive at least as many requests from members of the opposition as I receive from Liberal members, and I see nothing wrong with that either. Hon. members are elected to represent their constituencies with respect to federal matters, and it is only right and proper that they should endeavour to do so.
As to the employment of architects, when outside architects are used in the design of public buildings, the fee is uniform so it is a question of choosing somebody who is competent. There are a great many competent architects in Canada, and I venture to say there are many competent architects in the constituencies of a good many hon. members on both sides of the house. When names are brought to my attention it is my practice to consult with the chief architect to get his opinion as to the competency of those people. I am not familiar with them all. I will be, I presume, as time goes on, familiar with more of them, but at the present time I must reply on the best advice I can get, and I endeavour to choose the architects that will deliver work which will be a credit to the Canadian people generally.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Can the minister say that he would prefer the direct approach of the firm rather than have it detoured through a member?
3960	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works


Robert Henry Winters: I do not think I need to advise architects on how to approach the government to get work. From my short experience in this post I have found out that they do not need much tuition on how to approach the government.


Howard Charles Green: On page 438 there are particulars of this vote given in two ways: First of all, the actual way the money is spent, that is, for the type of work, and then there is another division according to provinces. Then, I notice this. There is one classification, generally, $809,257, after listing each one of the provinces and London, England. After these listings there is one item which is described as general. Can the minister explain what that covers?


Robert Henry Winters: May I answer that in a
moment? May we pass on to another item and I shall answer that in a moment?


John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, if we could do so, I should like to revert for one moment to the previous item for the purpose of asking a question which I omitted to ask.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. Has the hon. gentleman unanimous consent to revert to the previous item?


Robert Henry Winters: To which item does he wish to revert?


John Angus MacLean: The question comes under item 362.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


Some hon. Members:: No.


William Alfred Robinson: I hear some hon. members say "no". Has the hon. gentleman leave to revert to item 362?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Angus MacLean: It is a brief question and has to do with the playing of the bells in the tower here. Who is responsible for deciding when the bells are played? What are the duties of the carillonneur apart from playing the bells? I notice that he draws a considerable salary. I think that is only fair. It is about half as much again as M.P.'s drew until recently. I am just wondering what the regulations are with regard to the matter, who is responsible for the programming, the hours and so forth.


Robert Henry Winters: The content of the program is his own. He is a very competent carillonneur. He reports to the deputy minister and confers on matters respecting administration generally; but normally he is left to his own devices to choose his programs and to choose the time of playing. It is pretty much the same time from year to year.
[Mr. Dinsdale.l


John Angus MacLean: Is there a set number of programs per week or per month, or what is the basis?


Robert Henry Winters: The program is set up at the first of each year and I think it is published and made available to the public in the form of a little booklet.


Mr. Bell:: With regard to item 363, I am looking at page 438 and I see amounts for maintenance and operation of public buildings. I look at the details for New Brunswick and I see that the amount given there is about half of that for Nova Scotia. I thought perhaps that was just because there are not too many public buildings in New Brunswick. But in looking back three years I see that this amount was reduced to the present amount from an amount that was similar to that for Nova Scotia. There seems to be consistency in those amounts. I wonder whether the minister can explain why New Brunswick was cut down to such a small amount three years ago and has not been placed back in its former position.


Robert Henry Winters: We do not place moneys in the estimates unless we are going to spend the money. We do not place an amount in the estimates for maintenance and operation unless it is so required. My hon. friend will see that this year there is an increase over last year, the amount being $600,000 as against $560,000. That is just for necessary maintenance. Probably in the years to which he refers there was an especially big maintenance project at some particular place. I do not recall it but this is for actual costs of maintenance.


Thomas Miller Bell: Would the reason that the New Brunswick figure is so low in relation to the Nova Scotia figure perhaps be that there was only half the number of public buildings in New Brunswick or is there any consistency there? The other amounts seem to be fairly well the same each year. Three years ago New Brunswick was well up over the mil-lion-dollar mark, where Nova Scotia is now. Then we were cut down to about $500,000. While there is an increase this year, I should like to have an explanation as to why the amount for New Brunswick is so low as compared with that for Nova Scotia. Is it because we do not have as many public buildings?


Robert Henry Winters: It is because the buildings in this current year do not need as much maintenance. That is the real reason.


Thomas Miller Bell: I argue against that contention by saying that the amounts are fairly consistent each year in the case of the other provinces, as they have been for the last two or three years. There is no change.


Robert Henry Winters: I think my hon. friend should really be pleased that we are able to cut down the amount for maintenance and operation. Surely that is the type of economy he should be pleased about.


Thomas Miller Bell: I am; in the other provinces.


Robert Henry Winters: It is only used where
necessary.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is one honest politician.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
365.	Nova Scotia, $1,330,000.
Mr. McCulloch (Pictou):: I should like to ask the minister when tenders will be called for the Pictou post office.


Robert Henry Winters: We plan to call for tenders for the post office in Pictou by June 15.


Mr. Purdy:: I might just ask the indulgence of the committee for a moment to take the minister on a Cook's tour of the constituency of Colchester-Hants, running from the Minas basin to Northumberland strait and review our public buildings. First, at Hantsport, Shubena-cadie and Stewiacke our buildings are in fairly good repair. I do not think the total for repairs of these buildings will be very much this year. Coming next to Windsor, I may say that last year we understood that the roof and the outside of that building which, by the way is very old-it was built in the early 1880's-was slated for some major repairs. Unfortunately they were not carried out. I should like to have the minister look into that matter to see if the repairs could be carried out this year. When he has looked over the other places in Nova Scotia, where new buildings are needed, I wish he would cast his eye there. I think it is nearly time that that building should be replaced.
I now come to Truro, the hub of Nova Scotia.


An hon. Member:: The what?


Gordon Timlin Purdy: The hub of Nova Scotia. I am pleased to see that the plans which were brought into being a good many years ago at the time the reconstruction and rehabilitation committee was sitting building up the famous shelf of public works has now taken a little bit more definite shape, and that a lot has been purchased. I hope the construction of the building will be proceeded with without too much delay. I have already drawn to the attention of the minister the fact that the lot which the department has purchased is one of the finest lots in town, on the main street, one of the show places of Canada; and that the shade trees on the street make a wonderful arch. On that lot there are a number of nice trees. If I might just transpose my thoughts
Supply-Public Works for a minute, I might say to him that while speeches are made by fools like me, only God can make a tree. When they start to make their plans for that building I hope they will do everything possible to save as many of the trees as they can.
Now we shall go to the Northumberland strait and to the village of Tatamagouche. Back in 1940 the record will show that an amount was in the estimates for a public building at that point to house the post office. Plans were drawn, the contract was let and work was under way. The basement was dug. The forms were in. Some of the concrete was poured. Then owing to the stress of war, all work on public buildings of that nature was abandoned.
The work that was done was eventually demolished and the contractor settled with and on that vacant lot a temporary post office building was erected. The people of that flourishing community felt that when the contract had gone as far as that they would be sure to have a public building suitable for their needs in due course. However, so far there is nothing in the estimates for that and I would ask the minister to take this matter under advisement and discuss it with his colleague the Postmaster General. The former postmaster general must have approved this project otherwise the work would never have been started. If we could get that public building anywhere in this area it would certainly be a nice asset, and it is certainly much needed. There are five rural mail routes serving North Colchester based on this thriving village.
A few years ago it was my privilege to participate at the unveiling of a monument erected there by the national historical sites board to commemorate the naval battle of Tatamagouche bay. There is a nice monument there to commemorate this battle which took place during the early days of the country. It was not a very important battle but it was certainly considered important enough to erect a monument to commemorate it. I hope it will not be necessary for someone in the future to erect a monument to mark the spot where the public building was started but not finished.


Mr. Kirk (Shelburne-Yarmoulh-Clare):: Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer for a moment to the public building erected at Lockeport. It was my pleasure some few days ago to be in that town and to see the new public building there. It is a very well planned building and architecturally attractive. The exterior is of brick and Nova Scotia granite. Many of the citizens with whom I spoke were pleased to have such a fine building in their community. They felt it was
3962	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works sufficient to meet their present needs and take care of the natural growth for the next few years. As far as the town of Yarmouth is concerned, for which there is an item in the estimates for a public building, a suitable central site which appeals to the citizens has been purchased, but I would like to ask the minister if he would be so kind as to tell me and the house and through the house the citizens of my home town when he expects the plans and specifications to be completed and when he expects to call for tenders.


Robert Henry Winters: I thank the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare for his kind remarks about the building at Lockeport and also the hon. member for Colchester-Hants for his remarks, and I would like to assure him I will look into the points he has mentioned. As to the plans for the building in Yarmouth a site has been acquired and the plans have received the approval of the Post Office Department. My hon. friend may have an opportunity of looking them over. The target date for calling of tenders is July 1.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I would like to ask the minister when work on the revote for Collingwood harbour which is in the estimates will be commenced or tenders called for. The item covers the amount of some $3,000-odd and-


Robert Henry Winters: At present we are on an item for Nova Scotia, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps the hon. member will wait until we reach the item to which he has referred.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
366.	Prince Edward Island, $550,000.
John Angus MacLean: Mr. Chairman, there are a couple of questions I would like to ask the minister on this item and with particular regard to the vote for the building in Charlottetown. Could the minister tell us whether plans have been completed as yet and, in a general way, what offices will be accommodated in that new building and what the total cost will be? I also have one question with regard to the public building at Montague. Could the minister indicate when that building will be completed?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the tentative estimate is, of course, $3,500,000. It is anticipated that the building will be used to accommodate a post office, the customs, income tax, agriculture, transport, and veterans affairs. There may be other departments added, or some may be taken away.


John Angus MacLean: Will it include the E.C.M.P.
offices?


Robert Henry Winters: At the moment we are not planning to include the R.C.M.P. offices in IMr. Kirk (Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare).]

that building. Plans are nearing completion and, as I told my hon. friend the junior member for Queens this afternoon, the date for the calling of tenders is June 1.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
367.	New Brunswick, $1,250,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a few questions with reference to the New Brunswick vote. I note that there is $1,250,000 authorized for New Brunswick, but they are all revotes. Like the hon. member for Colchester-Hants and the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare, I would like to congratulate the minister on the fact that some buildings have been completed. But I would like to ask about the public building at Rothesay. I have brought this matter up on a number of occasions and the former minister of public works promised definitely both in 1952 and in 1953 that this building would be constructed. I do not think it is necessary to again point out the great necessity for this building. I do not suppose there is any place in Canada that needs a new post office more than Rothesay. The population there is increasing very rapidly, as I have pointed out before, and there are two private schools in that town. There is a large consolidated school and a new district high school. The population is increasing from about 100 to 150 every year and the building now in use there is an absolute disgrace as far as the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works are concerned. They have no facilities of any kind in this building. There are three or four employees and they have not even a washroom.
I understand there has been some difficulty over the selection of a site, but there is a good site near where the building used as a post office now stands and it could be purchased. I have been told, and the minister can correct me if I am wrong, that the reason this site has not been selected is because the owner of the land does not belong to the proper political persuasion.


An hon. Member:: Oh.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: You may say "Oh" but you do not know my opponent in the last election. I would like to see some of the private correspondence with the department in that connection because I have every reason to believe that my opponent during the last election, and also one of the local candidates for another party, opposed the purchase of the site. I would like to have the minister's comments on this, and I would also like to

know if there is any possibility of this building being constructed in the immediate future.
In	1952	as	reported at	page 3781	of
Hansard Mr. Fournier, the then minister, said:
I am going to put up a nice building in that place.
In	1953	as	reported at	page 3643	of
Hansard Mr. Fournier said:
I am going to try and convince them-
Speaking of his officials.
-that this item was put in the estimates for a new public building and I am going to instruct them here and now to go ahead with that project.
That project is long overdue. I would like to have the minister's comments on this proposed building for Rothesay. There is no finer village in this country and the people of Rothesay have, I suppose, the poorest post office accommodation of any place of its size in Canada.


Robert Henry Winters: It is a fact that the site has not yet been selected, and my hon. friend may be disappointed to know that to my knowledge I have received no communications of any kind from his opponent. As the result of no site being selected, no plans are prepared, and I am not in a position to say when the project will go forward.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Is the minister aware that there is a site that can be obtained?


Robert Henry Winters: We have been looking into the problem of sites. I have not a final report on it. My report to date is that no site has been selected.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: There has been a site available for some months, and I hope the minister will make further investigations at once.


Thomas Miller Bell: I have one question for the minister. Can he tell me the story on the customs building in Saint John? I want to know what is going on, what are the details and what are the plans with respect to the future of that building.


Robert Henry Winters: Our proposal at Saint John is to carry out some quite extensive renovations, as I recall, to the existing building to try to keep it in as good shape as we can until such time as we can plan to build a new building there.


Thomas Miller Bell: It is a very old building. People tell the story around Saint John about an official from Ottawa who came to visit the customs department there and who spent all his time in the office of one of the senior officials dodging the raindrops that were seeping through the roof and falling into pails
Supply-Public Works in this main office of the customs building. That will give you the story on the old building.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Can the minister tell us what the situation is with reference to the proposed customs and immigration building at St. Stephen and also the public building at Woodstock?


Robert Henry Winters: At St. Stephen an additional site has been acquired. Sketch plans have been sent to the customs department for approval. We hope to be able to call for tenders for that building very early next year. The Woodstock building is in process now. The contract has been awarded to R. Stewart Construction Company and the work is in hand.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
369.	Ottawa, $10,640,000.
Howard Charles Green: This item covers buildings in Ottawa. I would ask the minister to tell us whether anything has been done to carry out the recommendation made by the special committee on atomic energy last session. If the minister will recall, the committee was very much disappointed with the accommodation found for the work on radioactive minerals. We were shown through the basement of the museum. That was where much of this work was being carried on. I think every member of that committee felt that accommodation was not suitable for this work which is so important to Canada today. Nevertheless, in looking through the details of this vote I can find no provision for better quarters for carrying on this work. I ask the minister to explain whether I am wrong and, if so, to tell us just what accommodation is being provided for this work.


Mr. Stuart (Charlotte):: I should like to support the statement made by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra. The committee was privileged to visit the quarters supplied for this particular work at that time and they were very much disturbed about the accommodation. I know that it was the unanimous opinion of the committee that some improvement should be made. I believe it is most necessary and should receive every attention.


Mr. Prudham:: I wish to thank the hon. gentlemen who are supporting us in this project. I think the minister will explain what is being done.


Robert Henry Winters: The first item on page 443, chemical laboratory for Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, $500,000, is to cover the start of the work we have in mind there. At present the department is
3964	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works working on plans which will provide for an extension of the chemical laboratory of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any provision for a building for the geological survey?


Robert Henry Winters: That is being contemplated in connection with the over-all plans the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys has for several new buildings for its operations. There will be almost a complete rehousing job which will take some time, but the whole plan is in mind and under study.


Howard Charles Green: Will the accommodation for the radioactive work actually be built during the present year?


Robert Henry Winters: We plan to start it with the funds allocated by this vote. I doubt whether it will be completed this year but it should be started.


Howard Charles Green: How long will it take?


Robert Henry Winters: I am told it will perhaps take two years to build, a year and a half in any event.


Jean-Thomas Richard: Some time ago I think it was announced that the national art gallery would be located somewhere in the vicinity of Sussex street. I was wondering whether there was anything in this vote towards the acquisition of a site for this building during the current year.


Robert Henry Winters: There is an item on page 443, the third from the bottom of the group of Ottawa votes, for the acquisition of property required for sites for future government buildings. Under that vote we are endeavouring to work out arrangements for a suitable site for the national art gallery.


Jean-Thomas Richard: But no steps have been taken so far to acquire a site?


Robert Henry Winters: No.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: This afternoon I asked a question about the national library, and I think this is the appropriate item. Will the minister indicate what progress is being made on this project?


Robert Henry Winters: The architects, Messrs. Mathers and Haldenby, of Toronto, are working on the plans, and they have not yet quite completed their preliminary plans.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Will the national library have any connection at all with the parliamentary library?


Robert Henry Winters: No, it will be a separate operation.
IMr. Winters.]


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: How soon will the work on the parliamentary library be completed, and how much will it cost? Has the minister any information on that?


Robert Henry Winters: I am told, Mr. Chairman, it will be another two years before the job is completed. Hon. members who perhaps have looked in to see the work going on there will realize how complex it is. The whole building has had to be stripped right down to the masonry shell. It is turning out to be a much more expensive operation than could possibly have been foreseen. It will probably cost in excess of $2 million.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: That is what I was told the other day, but I did not know whether or not that was right. It seems like a large sum. There is no doubt the building needs repair, but-


Robert Henry Winters: It is far more than a repair, it is a complete rebuilding.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: A few weeks ago there was another fire in the library and the fire trucks came up here. What was the cause of that fire in the library? Was it because of a careless workman dropping a cigarette or what was it?


Robert Henry Winters: I do not think there was any carelessness, Mr. Chairman. There was simply a short circuit in the electrical wiring that ignited some of the woodwork in the dome. The fire was quickly brought under control and there was negligible damage.


Mr. Cardiff:: Will the space in the library be enlarged or is it merely going to be fireproofed?


Robert Henry Winters: The capacity will be increased, and it will be fireproofed.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Does that mean the walls will be extended to increase the outside dimensions of the building or will there be an additional structure added?


Robert Henry Winters: No, there is going to be some further excavation, the basement is going to be deeper. There will be more accommodation there and the internal arrangements will be such that there will be more storage space for the books.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I see here there is an item of $900,000. Does that mean you think that amount will cover the cost for this year?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, that is right.


Howard Charles Green: There is one item here, site for departmental buildings in Tunney's pasture, improvements and services, $750,000. Could we have a breakdown of that $750,000?


Robert Henry Winters: This amount, Mr. Chairman, is required to continue the work of grading, installation of sewers, water mains, electrical services, roads, sidewalks, supply and placement of topsoil, etc., in the Tunney's pasture area. Buildings erected or to be erected in this area include the bureau of statistics, record storage building, food and drugs laboratory, virus laboratory, public works testing laboratory, atomic energy building and other departmental buildings.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister got the amount for the landscaping for the bureau of statistics building?


Robert Henry Winters: The contract for the landscaping for the whole area, Mr. Chairman, is $425,526.


Howard Charles Green: Over half of this vote of $750,000 is for landscaping.


Robert Henry Winters: All of the amount I gave you will not be spent this year. I think perhaps half will be spent this year.


Howard Charles Green: How large is the area to be landscaped?


Robert Henry Winters: I am told by the hon. member for Ottawa West it is about a mile square, but I have not that information.


Howard Charles Green: What is the cost for the grading of this land? What is the total cost for grading?


Robert Henry Winters: The figure I gave includes the earth and rock grading and fill.


Howard Charles Green: That is landscaping.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: In connection with Tunney's
pasture-


William Alfred Robinson: The hon. member for
Vancouver-Burrard.


Mr. MacDougall:: I rather think I am speaking on the right item. It appears on page 443, and apparently under that item you can deal with almost anything that is in or around Ottawa. If I am right in assuming that, there is something I should like to say. I believe those who walk to or from the House of Commons are rather appalled at the narrowness of the main entrance as you turn into the parliament buildings. No doubt at the time that gate was constructed it was sufficiently wide for a horse and buggy, a horse and cutter or a horse and gig, but when you attempt to enter with a modern car you have to go into low gear and then into second to run up the little hill before you can get into high.
Supply-Public Works
There are two additional gates on either side of the main gate. It seems to me that the space taken by these gates could easily be used to give additional width to the main gate. I do not say it is particularly annoying, but it is inconvenient. I do not believe that it meets the dignity of the general surroundings to have such a narrow main entrance into the centre block of our House of Commons. It seems to me it would not be a very expensive proposition to knock out one of the divisions separating the two small gates from the main gate. If that could be done I think not only the people of Ottawa but everyone from this country or other countries who visits the centre block will be appreciative of that improvement in the facilities for getting into the centre block of Canada's capital.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Has Tunney's pasture no topsoil at all? Is it necessary to truck all the topsoil? This $750,000 seems like a lot of money to spend for planting a bit of sod or grass?


Robert Henry Winters: We have to put the topsoil there before we can get the grass to grow. There is no topsoil there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
370.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $8,415,000.
Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Mr. Chairman, Fort William is outside of Ottawa. We have been attempting to obtain a public building there, and the reason is that we are paying out over $30,000 in rent for dominion offices. We think it would be a saving to the dominion government to have all these offices in one place. A delegation came down here, and the minister treated them very well indeed, up to a point. I admit our delegation was late, but we will not be late next year. We are giving notice now that we want that building so that we can save money for the dominion government.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Mr. Chairman, I want to put in a request now, because it would appear that this minister is not going to carry on as the last one did. It would seem that he is going to consider requests that are made. I headed different delegations to the former minister of public works, and in each and every case upon leaving him I thought that I would most certainly get what I had asked for. But as soon as the interview was over the former minister appeared to forget the interview completely. The result was that I never got anything.
I believe there is a request before the department now for a new post office at Exeter, which is very badly needed at that

Supply-Public Works point. There is an airport adjacent to Exeter, and in the last few years the post office has not had sufficient room in which to operate. I believe engineers have been told to go down there to look the situation over. I have no reason to complain up to this point about what the present minister has done; but if there is no improvement next year by way of an allotment for that post office building the minister will be hearing from me.


Mr. Monteith:: Would the minister tell me the nature of the public building at St. Mary's for which there is a revote of $50,000.


Robert Henry Winters: This is a post office building. The site has been selected but I understand it has not yet been purchased. The Post Office Department attaches a considerable amount of importance to this building, and we hope to be able to proceed with it.


Jay Waldo Monteith: This year?


Robert Henry Winters: We have a target date of October 15 for completion of the plans. Whether we will be able to meet that date or not, I cannot say; but I hope we will be.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
371.	Manitoba, $2,665,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister say when the new post office building in Winnipeg is to be completed, or perhaps I should ask in what year it will be completed.


Robert Henry Winters: The plans are not yet completed.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is a hole in the ground there.


Robert Henry Winters: Well, that is a start. We expect the plans will be completed by the middle of the summer. It may take three years after that before the building is completed, because it is to be a large building.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Has any decision been reached as to what use will be made of the old post office building at the end of the three years' time?


Robert Henry Winters: We have not yet made that decision.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: There are three items that interest me in this vote. First, there is the construction of the customs and immigration buildings at Boissevain, the addition and alteration to the public building at Brandon, and a similar estimate for the public building at Virden.
I rise at this time because each of these is a revote. In the cases of the first two, I believe they have been in the estimates for the last three or four years.


Dealing particularly with the customs port at Boissevain, I think the minister is aware that this matter is becoming increasingly urgent, because the customs port is located on highway No. 10 which today is becoming recognized as the main street of the Americas. It is a highway that runs right through from South America, through the international peace garden, the city of Brandon, and Riding Mountain national park. At the present time it continues as far as Flin Flon, Manitoba, which is an important mining section in the province. We would hope eventually, of course, as the north opens up that this highway of the Americas would extend right through to Churchill. I understand the great difficulty here is the matter of negotiation with American officials.


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member is referring to Boissevain?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes.


Robert Henry Winters: The situation is that the plans are complete and they have gone to the secretary for advertising. Tenders will be called, to close on May 12, 1954. That will save the hon. member a speech.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I think we are seeing greatly improved efficiency in the department when we can get a response such as we have had just now concerning this item which, as I have indicated, has been on the books for the last three years.
Then, in regard to the addition and alterations to the post office at Brandon, I notice the amount this year is reduced from $150,000 to $50,000. I wonder if there is an explanation for that.


Robert Henry Winters: No; it just means that is probably all we will be able to spend this year. We expect to go out for tenders this year, but it will be late in the year and we do not expect we will be able to spend more than $50,000. However that does not mean anything in the final outcome.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: It just indicates once again the new efficiency and the new look in the department. Then, finally, as the penultimate point, I would direct attention to the public building at Virden. I do not think there is any particular problem there, but I would point out that Virden is the oil centre in western Manitoba. At the present time it has all the appearances of a boom town with the result that post office facilities at the moment are greatly overcrowded. From what the minister has said in regard to the two other items I think we can safely conclude that this project, too, will receive the same expeditious attention.

There is one further matter I should like to bring to the minister's attention at this time. It is the need for a new federal building in the city of Brandon. I think the situation there is much the same as that in Fort William. At the present time, with the exception of the post office, federal offices are located in the old post office building. In that building are the employment offices, the unemployment insurance offices, and the headquarters for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The square footage available in the old post office building is only 1,720 square feet, which means that the insurance branch has overflowed into an upstairs office occupying a square footage of 1,100 square feet. My information is that these two branches alone require some 5,000 square feet of office space. The present accommodation available is just 2,820.
In addition to the lack of sufficient area, the fact that the two branches are dispersed at different parts of the city creates an administration problem of some significance. On top of that I understand that the C.M.H.C. is opening a new regional office to administer the new act, and will require further office space. Furthermore I believe the radio trouble unit is to be located in the city of Brandon, which will require further office facilities.
I will not labour the point other than to say that Brandon is the important urban area of western Manitoba, and is the second largest city in the province. As a matter of fact, it serves an area of 12,500 square miles, with a population of 105,000 people. Perhaps the minister will also be aware of the fact that there is an excellent piece of property lying between the old post office building and the new post office building which is just waiting to be used for a project of this kind. I bring this to the minister's attention. Some of these days he will be visiting the city to see for himself, and this is by way of preliminary information.


Mr. Viau:: In respect of the new Winnipeg post office I am informed that the outside will be completed of brick from eastern Canada. Will the minister advise the committee why Manitoba Tyndall stone, such as has been used in other public buildings in greater Winnipeg, is not being used?


Robert Henry Winters: I am not in a position to say whether that is true or not, but I would be very surprised if that were true. We have appointed as architects the well-known firm of Green, Blankstein and Russell, and I shall be very greatly surprised if that were the case. However, it is something that I shall look into.
83276-251J
Supply-Public Works


Mr. Churchill:: The minister said a few minutes ago, in answer to the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, that the plans would not be completed until late this summer. Were there any plans in hand before tenders were called for the excavation of the foundation?


Robert Henry Winters: The plans at that time were sufficiently developed so that we could undertake the foundation. The plans are not yet completed to the point where we can call tenders for the superstructure. That is quite a different situation, you know.


Gordon Minto Churchill: What is the progress of the work at the present time? Has the excavation been completed, is further work being undertaken at the present time, or will there be a delay until the plans are in hand at the end of the summer?


Robert Henry Winters: The excavation has been completed, and I understand that at the present time the caissons are going in for the foundation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
372.	Saskatchewan. $2,720,000.
Mr. Knight:: There is one vote here that has to do with my city, a vote of $350,000 and a revote of $70,000. I am familiar with that building, but for the record I should like to have the opinion of the minister when he thinks this work will be completed. It has been in hand for quite a period of time. When is there a chance of it being completed? What is the purpose for which it is to be used when it is completed? We know it probably better as the building of the Department of Veterans Affairs rather than the London building under which name it is designated here. May I say that for all public works in the province of Saskatchewan, and not only the city of Saskatoon, we are quite anxious that by next year when we shall have our fiftieth anniversary of the foundation of the province we should like to have these things in good shape. Can the minister give me that information for the record?


Robert Henry Winters: With respect to the building that is listed here, "Saskatoon-addition and alterations to London building", the work is about 60 per cent completed at the present time. It should be finished and occupied this year. The building is for the use of the Department of Veterans Affairs, income tax and certain other services.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: It is largely a consolidation, is it not, of the dominion government offices?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.
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Supply-Public Works


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Can the minister tell me approximately what the total expenditures on that building will be to put it in shape, or what the total estimate is?


Robert Henry Winters: The total amount of the contract is $530,764.61.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: There must be a lot of work to be done yet.


Robert Henry Winters: It is 62 per cent completed; there is 38 per cent of the work to be done.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Can the minister give us the approximate date of the completion?


Robert Henry Winters: I said it would be completed and occupied before the end of the year. I do not want to set the target date now, I just do not know.


Edward George McCullough: There is a matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the minister. I am very happy to see the hon. member for Qu'Appelle in his seat because he will be interested in this matter. I had the honour to represent the former seat of Assiniboia from 1945 to 1949. During that period I had the good fortune to have the village of Kipling in my constituency, which, as anyone knows who knows the southeastern part of the province, is a very progressive town and in a prosperous farming district. I want to refer the minister to the vote on page 446 "Kipling-public building, revote $25,000". Last year there was a vote of $75,000 provided. I know we have finished the Criminal Code, but I do not recall anything in it covering political parties which go out and make false promises or commitments. I am happy to hear from the minister that the Department of Public Works of this government is going to get a new look. I am not going to make any insinuations that could not be backed up, but we have heard from various members that there could very well be political reasons why certain votes were not spent in certain buildings under construction.
With regard to the Kipling building, I rise primarily to emphasize the fact that was previously recognized by the Department of Public Works, namely, the real necessity for a new building in the village of Kipling. I had a great deal of difficulty getting answers to certain questions from the government.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, if my hon. friend will allow me to interject I might be able to save him a speech. We propose to go out to tender on this building early in the summer, and if additional funds are required this year we shall ask for them in the supplementary estimates.


Edward George McCullough: I am
very happy to get the information which the minister has just given. Nevertheless I do want to continue these few remarks to indicate to the minister that we are expecting him to go through with it. It is a fact that the department did have certain surveys in that village. I would suggest to him that when they undertake this building they work in close conjunction with the local authorities and the people concerned because it has been brought to my attention that if the site-I am not too sure of the site-selected is the one they intend to build on it may not be the proper one in the best interests of the village, unless more than one has been surveyed. I am suggesting that when you build you work in close co-operation with the local board of trade, the town council and others to make sure that it will be an asset to the town and will work in with town planning.
I am happy to hear what the minister has just said. I want to emphasize that you need a building there. There is a high revenue-


Robert Henry Winters: You are going to get it.


Edward George McCullough: I am
going to make one other suggestion in view of the fact that the minister is so amiable tonight. It is that when they are giving consideration to this matter, they consider the R.C.M.P. detachment at that point. We have our R.C.M.P. stationed there. They have never had proper barracks. Would the minister now be kind enough to give me the assurance that when they are considering this building they will make it a joint building to house the R.C.M.P., which they can use as a barracks, as well as a post office for Kipling?


Robert Henry Winters: No; I will not give my hon. friend that assurance.


Edward George McCullough: I would point out this consideration to the minister, and I am quite serious about it. If this department is not already giving consideration to this matter, it would be well to do so because I do not think we need two buildings in that village. One building properly constructed would be under your department. It would be the type of building which would be an asset to the town and would serve very well the two purposes. I am suggesting to the minister that he give consideration to that matter. Perhaps now that I have got this far, I might solicit the assistance of the hon. member for Qu'Appelle to get the R.C.M.P. barracks in addition.


Mr. Mang:: Since I have been given some publicity in this matter, just to set the record

straight I might say that Kipling is now in the constituency of Qu'Appelle, and that we have been in very close touch with the situation since August 11. We are working in very close harmony with the local people, with the Department of Justice which is in charge of the R.C.M.P., and with the minister in charge of the Department of Public Works. We are making quite definite progress. If the building costs more than $25,000, we are not going to leave a building there with the roof off. It is going to be completed and it will be a good one. When the necessity arises for the R.C.M.P. to put up a building we, together with the local organization, will be working together. That is outside of any political organization. I mean the town organization and so forth.


Edward George McCullough: I hope the hon. member for Qu'Appelle is speaking with authority and for the government. Now that he says he has been on the job since August 11, there is another question I should like to ask him or the minister. It is in connection with some of the contracts which were let or given to the Lunam Construction Company. This matter was brought to my attention on a number of occasions. The committee will recall that the former member for Qu'Appelle, Mr. Dewar, resigned from the house just prior to the federal election. There were left certain contracts which were not fully paid to the subcontractors or there were certain moneys which should have gone to the subcontractors. It has been brought to my attention that certain truckers and other people who were working there and in the employ of the subcontractors were not paid. If the minister or the hon. member for Qu'Appelle would assure me that this matter has been cleaned up to the satisfaction of the subcontractors and their workers I should be very happy. It is a bad situation because some of these young men who were working there with their trucks never were paid, and they have either lost their trucks or have been put in an extremely awkward position. I should like the minister to make a statement with regard to that matter, or the hon. member for Qu'Appelle.


Henry Philip Mang: We are fully aware of the
situation and everything is being done to rectify the situation that we are aware of.


Edward George McCullough: Since the hon. member for Qu'Appelle has taken the liberty to answer my question and not the minister, I should like to ask him this question. When he says that "everything is being done", does he mean payment in money or that it is certain underground things that we cannot see?
Supply-Public Works


Robert Henry Winters: This, Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member who said he would make no insinuations. The speech was loaded with them.
The situation with respect to the subcontractors is that they have formed a committee to attempt to establish the validity and the quantum of the subcontracts. They have appointed a legal agent, a Mr. Pope, to act on their behalf. They have had meetings. From a conversation which I recently had with Mr. Pope, I understand that they are very close to agreement on how the remaining moneys should be apportioned and that they have agreement as to assignment from Mr. Lunam. We hope that before too long the situation will be satisfactorily disposed of in so far as we are able to apportion the remaining funds.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I must thank the minister for including an item for $110,000 for a public building at Kelvington. Earlier this afternoon I discussed Carrot River. I should like the minister at this point to give us some information as to how he decides where those public buildings are built. I know that the Post Office Department and the R.C.M.P. are all interested in getting quarters in the country. The minister has assured us that in the future these public buildings are not going to be built for political reasons. I think hon. members might be interested, however, in finding out how, for instance, Lemberg gets a new public building this year. I might mention that Lemberg is in Melville constituency.
When I was in parliament previously and referred matters of this type to the then postmaster general or to the then minister of public works, I was informed that until a centre had a post office revenue of $10,000, no consideration could be given to the erecting of a public building. I find that, for the last year for which information is available,. Lemberg had a revenue of $4,810. I find that, in the Melville constituency Lemberg, I tuna,, Langenburg, Fort Qu'Appelle and Balcarres, all with a revenue a good deal less than that of Carrot River, have public buildings. Saltcoats has been included. It probably is the centre in Melville which the Minister of Agriculture believes did not get the consideration that it deserved. But these six centres I mentioned in the Melville constituency either have public buildings or are in the process of receiving them.
As I said previously, there is not a centre in the Mackenzie constituency that has a public building. We had one at Fort Livingston seventy-five years ago but not
3970	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works now. But in the Mackenzie constituency Hudson Bay, Kelvington, Carrot River, Preeceville, Norquay, Porcupine Plain, Sturgis, and Buchanan all have greater revenue than has Lemberg. I would suggest that the post office revenue gives some indication as to the size of the community. I wish the minister would explain this matter. Perhaps he would rather leave it for the Postmaster General to discuss, although I am sure if we wait until the Postmaster General comes with his estimates, he will tell us that public works decides. 1 wish the minister would explain how it is that none of these centres in Mackenzie constituency with revenue in excess of Lemberg get a public building, while Lemberg, with a revenue of $4,810, gets a fine public building in the course of the last year. Can the minister tell us what the formula is? How is that Lemberg, for example, gets a public building and Carrot River does not?


Robert Henry Winters: I know that the hon. member does not have in mind that there is any political favouritism here.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The thought seems to be in the minister's mind.


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member probably knows better than does anybody else that the constituency of Mackenzie was represented for the past four years in a distinguished manner by a prominent Liberal. If the hon. member is accusing the government of not doing anything for the constituency for the past four years, surely he cannot say that the grounds were political.
There are certain principles here which, I think, should be made clear. In the first place it is very rare for the Department of Public Works to build a building for itself. It will not build a building for its own purposes in Kelvington or Carrot River or the other places mentioned by my hon. friend. The buildings it does construct are erected only because some other government department requires the type of accommodation which can be had only by building.
The other point is that these departments look to the Department of Public Works to provide suitable accommodation. Suitable accommodation does not automatically mean that new accommodation must be built. The $10,000 division line of revenue is a guide. The Post Office Department does not like to have new buildings erected in centres where revenue is less than $10,000 per year. But that does not mean that a new building cannot be built in a centre smaller than that,


because if suitable existing accommodation cannot be found in a small centre then the only alternative is to build new accommodation. It also applies that there are centres where revenue is greater than $10,000 per year and where it is satisfactory to use existing accommodation rather than build new accommodation.


An hon. Member:: What a story.


Robert Henry Winters: It is a true story, my hon. friend may be surprised to know. It is a fact that the Department of Public Works and the other departments of government concerned use their best judgment to solve the problem in the public interest.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I wish to thank the minister for his statement and I accept it as a statement of policy. The problem that I have been discussing did not arise while the minister was in charge. However, I think it is unfortunate that in an election campaign a candidate gets up and states, "You cannot get anything because your member of parliament is not a supporter of the government". I believe it is important that these decisions be based on an established formula, regardless of the political views of the sitting member. I must say, however, that the minister has been very courteous in handling all my correspondence and I would like to say that I have never felt a problem has been rejected because of any political difference of opinion I might have had with the minister. I again must emphasize that it is unfortunate that during the election campaign it was suggested that because Mackenzie had been represented by a C.C.F. member for a number of years no public building had been built there. As regards Carrot River it should not be suggested that they cannot have a public building now because a Liberal member does not represent that constituency. I simply want the minister to assure us that during the next four years a decision against building a public building at Carrot River will not be based on the fact that the people there did not send a Liberal member to parliament at the last election.


Mr. Casileden:: Mr. Chairman, first of all I wish to thank the minister for the fine work that has been done in erecting a splendid federal building in the city of Yorkton. In that regard, I would like to ask the minister when he expects the work to be completed and whether he can give us some idea of the total cost? The building was very much needed and I can assure the minister that it is very much appreciated by the people of that city and the surrounding district. They will be very interested in finding out when it will be ready to be occupied.

The people are particularly anxious to know the completion date, because they were told during the election that the best thing to do was to vote Liberal in order to get the building finished. I would like to have the minister's comments on that.


Robert Henry Winters: The building at Yorkton is under contract to W. C. Wells Construction Company and the amount involved is $766,047. About 70 per cent of the building has been finished and the job should be completed within the next three months.


George Hugh Castleden: There was a revote on the first estimate and I believe the figure then was $225,000. The second year there was a revote of $350,000, and this year it was $450,000. What is the total figure?


Robert Henry Winters: 


George Hugh Castleden: And you expect to have it finished this year?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: With regard to the other post offices I might say, in line with what the minister said tonight, that there are one or two places in my constituency where accommodation for post offices at the present time is very poor. I refer to the village of Theodore and the village of Raymore. As regards the village of Kelliher, they too, have a fairly large revenue, and although they have fair accommodation it is not nearly as good as in the neighbouring village of Ituna, or the town of Lemberg, which happens to be in the constituency of Melville. The revenue at the village of Kelliher is higher than at Ituna and considerably higher than at Lemberg. However, I hope the minister keeps these things in mind and remembers the very poor accommodation which they have at Theodore and Raymore.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
373.	Alberta, $3,600,000.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I notice in the details there is an item for accommodation for government services in Calgary on revotes which amounts to $150,000. I wonder if the minister would tell us the purpose of this building and the purpose to which it is to be put and what exactly this vote covers. I would also like to know where that building is to be erected in Calgary and what size it is to be.


Robert Henry Winters: This amount is required toward the construction of a public building in Calgary to provide improved accommodation for the Department of Veterans Affairs and other government services. I am not
Supply-Public Works yet in a position to tell my hon. friend how large the building will be. We have not progressed far enough with the planning to know the answer to that question.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I take it from the minister's remarks that this is not to be the total cost of the building and that this is merely the preliminary vote in order to get it started. Is that the situation?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, that is correct.


Douglas Scott Harkness: And I take it also from what the minister said that this is the same building for which votes were passed, I believe, in 1947-48 and in 1948-49 in regard to the veterans' affairs building. I wonder if the minister could give us any information as to what steps have been taken to acquire a site, if any, and how soon he expects construction on this building to start.


Robert Henry Winters: The Department of Veterans Affairs has requested us to erect a new building on a site which is owned by them opposite the Colonel Belcher hospital. It is our intention to proceed with the erection of a building on that site. The plans are not yet beyond the preliminary stage and I am not in a position to say when the building will be started.


Charles Edward Johnston: Mr. Chairman, I wish to say something about this item before it is passed. There has been some comment this evening about political favouritism in the Department of Public Works. I do not agree with that, Mr. Chairman, and for this reason: during the past 20 years the town of Banff has been represented by a Liberal and a Conservative. Very little has been done in the town of Banff. It is the most outstanding summer resort on the North American continent-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Charles Edward Johnston: -and it deserves some consideration. I have just been reminded that it is now being represented by myself, a Social Crediter, and that may be the reason why it is being given some consideration by the Department of Public Works. Certainly that could not be considered as being political favouritism. I notice in the estimates that the department is going to spend $280,000 for a new public building in Banff. I imagine that sum will be to get it started. I do not suppose that will be the amount which will be required to complete the building. It should make a very handsome building in Banff national park. The provincial government also has its eye on Banff since the last election, and they are now erecting a building which will cost more than $250,000 to house one of the most modern telephone services in Canada.
3972	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works
These two buildings are going to be a great asset to the town of Banff, and well they should because Banff attracts more tourists than any other spot in Canada. There is a problem in connection with the building to be erected by the Department of Public Works that I want to bring to the minister's attention. I have already discussed the matter with the Department of National Revenue. I should like to know whether provision is made in the plans for quarters for customs officers. I am informed, and I think accurately, that there is a considerable amount of business for such an office.


Robert Henry Winters: The answer to that is yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am very glad to hear that. A customs officer is stationed at the Banff Springs hotel during the summer season. I am informed by one business concern in Banff that last year they paid over $7,000 in duties in a period of eight months. That is only one firm, so there must be sufficient business to warrant the opening of a customs office. I am very pleased to hear the minister say that provision is being made for that type of service. Can the minister tell the house what progress has been made? Has the site been selected?


Robert Henry Winters: As my hon. friend probably knows, the building will be constructed on a crown site, so we own the site now.


Charles Edward Johnston: You have the site?


Robert Henry Winters: We have the site.


Charles Edward Johnston: Where is it?


Robert Henry Winters: It is at the corner of Bear and Buffalo streets.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is provision also being made in that building for the R.C.M.P.?


Robert Henry Winters: No.


Charles Edward Johnston: I was informed that it would be possible for the R.C.M.P. to be housed in the new building and that the building which they now occupy would be used for other services. Is that correct?


Robert Henry Winters: That is not correct. We do not propose to house them in this new building.


Charles Edward Johnston: What will be the over-all cost of the building when it is completed?


Robert Henry Winters: It is estimated that it will be around $300,000.


Charles Edward Johnston: Can the minister say when construction will be started?


Robert Henry Winters: We hope to call for tenders by the 15th of May.


Charles Edward Johnston: How long do you think it will take to complete construction?


Robert Henry Winters: I think it could be done within a year and a half.


Charles Edward Johnston: I want to thank the minister for giving this matter the consideration that it deserves.


Mr. Quelch:: I was very glad to see that the item for the public building at Stettler had been increased from $75,000 to $125,000. I wonder whether the minister can say what progress is being made with the erection of the building and just what purpose it will serve. I understand it will house the new post office, but what other services will it provide accommodation for?


Robert Henry Winters: Post office and veterans affairs.


Victor Quelch: Can you say what progress is being made?


Robert Henry Winters: The contractor is J. C. Had-dow. The amount is $222,000. The contract was awarded in September and the building is 25 per cent completed.


Mr. Thomas:: I was wondering where the money had gone that was in last year's estimates for a public building at Wetaskiwin, and now I think I know. It went to Stettler. In all seriousness, I do want to voice the protests of the people of the city of Wetaskiwin against the government's action in dropping all mention of a public building in Wetaskiwin from the estimates this year. The need for this building has been recognized for some time. As a matter of fact, two years ago the sum of $50,000 was included in the estimates, and I believe that was intended for an extension to the existing building. Apparently it was recognized last year that an extension was not sufficient, and the sum of $75,000 was put in the main estimates toward the construction of a new building. Suddenly this year it is dropped.
Surely the priority has not disappeared so quickly. Conditions in that post office are intolerable not only for the public but also for the employees. The employees are working in cramped quarters and do not have proper facilities. People are forced to line up for their mail. When I was home at Christmastime people were standing in line an hour or more in order to get their mail. The employees could not get the mail sorted on time and people were delayed. Letters were coming in late and things were in a general uproar.

Since the item was first put in the estimates two years ago the situation in Wetaskiwin has worsened tremendously. The population of the city has increased to the extent where it has overloaded the facilities of the post office. Business has also increased to a very great extent. The Wetaskiwin area now has five full oilfields completely circling the city and it serves at least a part of one other field. That makes a total of six oilfields, and all the oil companies have their offices there. The oil supply companies have offices there. The drilling equipment and equipment repair companies also have offices in the city. These businesses are all forced to use the facilities of the post office in Wetaskiwin. As I said a moment ago, the situation there is terrible. The need for a new post office was recognized at least two years ago by the department.
The estimates were passed by the House of Commons. Surely, the minister cannot say that with the expansion of business within that city there is no longer any priority for a new building there. It would appear to me that if there were a need two years ago there is a double need for a new building now. I want to repeat that I protest most strongly the withdrawal of this item from the estimates. I should like an explanation from the minister as to why this item was dropped from the estimates when the need is so obvious.


Robert Henry Winters: The explanation is short, Mr. Chairman. A site had not yet been acquired, and when we compiled the estimates and the treasury board found we were not in a position to go ahead with the building because we did not have a site, they asked us to drop the item from the estimates this year so the equivalent amount of money could be used somewhere else where construction could be put in place.


Ray Thomas: I would presume, then, that a site will be obtained this summer, or at least negotiations for a site undertaken, so a start can be made on the building early next year.


Mr. Shaw:: When I spoke on March 12 when the first item of this department was before us, I made a reference to five projects in Alberta which had been dropped, we hoped only temporarily. When the minister replied it happened that I was called out of the house, but from what he said I am rather inclined to believe he may have misunderstood me. He referred to the $3,600,000 appropriated for the ensuing fiscal year, which represented an increase of $1,299,999 and said this would indicate there was no
Supply-Public Works attempt whatever to discriminate on any grounds that may possibly have been in the mind of the hon. member.
Upon reflection I believe the minister will agree that I did not charge discrimination at all. 1 asserted that there were other people who support the minister's party who were charging discrimination by inference, if not directly, inasmuch as they asserted that if an opposition member were representing the constituency that would be the best guarantee we would not secure a public building. I challenged that statement myself and said that, so far as I could ascertain during my fourteen years here, the policy was not one of discrimination. I would not want him to think for a moment that, so far as Alberta was concerned, I thought there was a suggestion of discrimination.
My entire comment was to the effect that, inasmuch as parliament last May had given its approval to the five projects, including the one in my own town of Innisfail, I trusted the minister would keep these matters to the fore and would agree to go through with these projects. After all, as I emphasized then and as I emphasize now, the need was recognized. The projects were given a high priority rating and everyone had cause to believe the projects would be undertaken. I was pleased to note that on March 12 the minister made it clear the projects had not been abandoned. I had used that term, and I am pleased to know that. I hope these projects have not been taken away completely, and that in another year the minister will find it possible to proceed with those projects to which I referred on March 12.
As I say, my only purpose tonight is to stress the fact that at no place in my remarks, either on March 11 or 12, did I charge discrimination against my constituency or against Alberta.


Mr. Holowach:: I am pleased to see the department has allocated some funds for the erection of public buildings in the city of Edmonton. I have no quarrel with where that money is to be spent because all parts of Edmonton are important to me. Naturally, I am sorry that not one cent is to be allocated to Edmonton East, which is one of the oldest parts of Edmonton and perhaps the most important. I am curious to know, and I would appreciate if the minister would be kind enough to explain, why the proposed public building in Edmonton, which was originally designed for Edmonton East, was switched to Edmonton West. What were the

Supply-Public Works reasons for that switch, and were any political motives responsible for the change?


Robert Henry Winters: I do not know of any switch being made since I have been in this department, Mr. Chairman. No switch was made, and therefore the second part of the question does not need an answer.


Ambrose A. Holowach: The proposed public building now being built in Edmonton West was originally to be built in Edmonton East; that was the understanding of the people of Edmonton.


Robert Henry Winters: That was all before my time; I do not recall it.


Ambrose A. Holowach: That may be, but I was anxious to know the reason for the switch.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not know.


Mr. Blackmore:: Just before the item
carries, I desire to thank the minister and his department, on behalf of the Lethbridge federal riding, for the construction of three fine public buildings in the Lethbridge riding, namely Taber, Carway and Lethbridge. The building in Carway is particularly important because of the fact it is a rather vital port of entry to the Waterton Lakes park. It is entirely fitting that there should be a respectable public building there because of the great number of tourists going through the port of entry yearly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
374.	British Columbia, $4,450,000.
Mr. Herridge:: I rise to make a few comments on this item with a particularly clear conscience because I represent the constituents who are most reasonable in their requests. They never ask for anything unless it is urgently required, after due consideration, and so on. I know the minister's officials, and I am sure the minister is aware of the fact that for some ten years the present public building in Trail has been inadequate, both as to size, as to facilities and as to conveniences. The greatest objection to the present building is the fact that the staff working in the basement often works under insanitary conditions. Whenever there is high water or a storm, the sewage backs up into the basement and the postmen find it very difficult to continue sorting letters because of the odours that are caused by this sewage.


I realize the department has had rather unusual difficulty in choosing a site because it has not been an easy matter to find a suitable site in the city of Trail for the proposed building. The local organizations and the local people are looking forward now to the commencement of this proposed building. I should like the minister to inform me just how far plans have proceeded and when we can expect tenders to be called. I should like to ask the minister about two other projects to save him rising on three occasions, because I believe in the conservation of the minister's energy.
I notice a vote of $100,000 for the city of Nelson. There, again, there has been some delay owing to the willingness of the department to consider a change in site to accommodate the city council. That is very much appreciated. However, they are greatly concerned about the commencement of work on the building. When can we expect tenders to be called for the building in Nelson?
Then I notice a public building for Castle-gar, in the amount of $50,000, and I am pleased indeed to see this amount set out in the estimates. Castlegar is a rapidly growing *community, possibly the most rapidly growing, with the exception of one in the constituency of the deputy chairman. I think it is a very good thing to consider placing a public building there. What are the plans in connection with that building, and when can construction be expected?


Robert Henry Winters: First of all, we are planning a building for Castlegar. The site has been acquired. Sketches have not yet been started, but we hope that we will be able to go out to tender on the building before the end of this fiscal year, that is, before the end of March 1955.
In Nelson we are going to build the building on a crown site. Sketches have been approved, and we hope we will be able to go out to tender within a month.
In Trail we plan to build on a crown site. Revised sketches are being prepared, and we hope to call tenders late this year.


Mr. Maclnnis:: I notice there are two amounts for Vancouver, in connection with item 374. Perhaps I should preface any question I have to ask by saying that, so far as we know, we have no political troubles, as they have adjacent to Melville in the province of Saskatchewan. However we have

not yet heard from the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra. In any event I do not expect problems of that kind to develop under the administration of the Minister of Public Works.
The first item for Vancouver is a customs building with a vote of $1,200,000, and the second is a post office building with a vote of $2 million, including a revote of $780,000. Will the vote in the estimates now for the customs building be sufficient to complete it?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount of the contract for the customs building at Vancouver is $2,854,589. So the amount in the estimates will need to be supplemented by about $850,000.


Donald MacInnis: Has the contract been let for the post office? I believe tenders have been called.


Robert Henry Winters: Tenders have been called, but the contract has not yet been let. We know what the amounts of the tenders were, but they are still in process of being scrutinized. The contract has not yet been awarded.


Donald MacInnis: I do not suppose the
minister can say when it is expected work on the post office building will be begun. I might add that a very substantial fence was built around the lot on which the post office is to be built. There was some fear expressed through notices in the press, and by certain people in Vancouver, that the fence was of such a substantial type that it meant that the post office would not be built for a long time. I hope the minister will be able to reassure the people of Vancouver that the post office will be proceeded with as soon as the tenders can be properly analysed.


Robert Henry Winters: The recommendation to
treasury board in favour of the lowest tender is in the course of preparation now. The submission will go forward presently, and I would imagine that the contractor would be able to start there within the next month, at any rate.


Mr. Patterson:: We are very appreciative in the Fraser valley of the fact that a new immigration and customs building is being constructed at Huntingdon, and also for the fact that there is a revote in the amount of $70,000 for the public building at Mission City. Will the minister state what stage the plans have reached in connection with the Mission City post office?
Supply-Public Works


Robert Henry Winters: At Huntingdon the building is fifty per cent completed. Perhaps the hon. member has seen the building in progress. At Mission City we have a crown site. Sketch and plans have been prepared but detailed plans are not yet ready. We hope however that within the course of the next two months we will be able to call tenders for it.


Owen Lewis Jones: Mr. Chairman, I believe I would require about five minutes for what I have to say. Perhaps we should call it ten o'clock.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Well, the committee has not done badly this afternoon. Perhaps it would be well to call it ten o'clock, report the resolutions and ask leave to sit again.


Howard Charles Green: Before that is done, I believe the minister was going to give an answer to me.


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra asked me to give some information as to what was included in the general item found at page 438, in the amount of $809,000. That amount is principally for purchasing lock boxes, and furniture in bulk for future distribution, for travelling expenses not especially allotted, and for moving government departments within the various provinces.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Harris:: On Monday we will resume debate on the budget.


Howard Charles Green: Will that be continued on Tuesday and Wednesday?


Walter Edward Harris: That is the present intention, unless something unusual occurs.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
360.	Departmental administration, $821,732. Architectural branch-
361.	Branch administration, $701,299.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Public Works
362.	Ottawa-maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $500,000, $14,996,664.
363.	Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $800,000, $20,843,057.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates,
[Stage Direction]
provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to b* expended on individual listed projects-
364.	Newfoundland, $550,000.
365.	Nova Scotia, $1,330,000.
366.	Prince Edward Island, $550,000.
367.	New Brunswick, $1,250,000.
369.	Ottawa, $10,640,000.
370.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $8,415,000.
371.	Manitoba, $2,665,000.
372.	Saskatchewan, $2,720,000.
373.	Alberta, $3,600,000.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, April 12, 1954