1954-03-03

[Stage Direction]
Third report of standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Croll.


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Mr.	Speaker, I should like to
announce that an order in council has been passed setting up a royal commission to inquire into and report upon the question whether the criminal law of Canada relating to the defence of insanity should be amended in any respect and, if so, in what manner and to what extent.
The membership of the said commission will be Hon. James Chalmers McRuer, chief justice of the high court of justice of Ontario, chairman; Dr. Gustave Desrochers, assistant superintendent of St. Michel hospital, and a member of the faculty of medicine at Laval University, Quebec, P.Q., vice-chairman; Her Honour Judge Helen Kinnear, county court judge for the county of Haldimand, Ontario; Dr. Robert O. Jones, professor of psychiatry at Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S.; and Joseph Harris, Esquire, of Winnipeg.



QUESTIONS


Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Has there been in effect in the Post Office Department a night differential in favour of employees obliged to be on duty between the hours of 5 p.m. and 7 a.m.? If so. what have been the terms of such a night differential?
2.	Has any such night differential been discontinued, or is it being discontinued, in connection with the institution of the five-day 40-hour week amongst post office employees? If so, for what reason?
3.	Have any protests been received against the abolition of said night differential, and is consideration being given to maintaining the said night differential?


Mr. Kirk (Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare):: 1.	Yes. Seven hours night duty has been accepted in lieu of eight hours.
2.	Yes. It is proposed to implement the five-day 40-hour week for all shifts.
3.	No formal representations have been received, but reports of a meeting in Vancouver indicate some confusion. Night differential as previously applied disappears with the adoption of the five-day 40-hour week, but the department recognizing the inconvenience of night work has recommended a cash allowance for night duty at points where the five-day 40-hour week goes into effect.
The cash allowance for the additional one and a half hours worked and the inconvenience will be approximately $6 per worker per week for full-time night duty.
Employees will also have the benefit of one more day free from duty each week. In other words their hours of duty will be confined to five days instead of six as at present.


VESSEL &quot;LA HAVE&quot;
Mr. Nowlan:: 1.	Where is the vessel known as La Have, presently based?
2.	Is the La Have now commissioned, and if so, for what purpose?
3.	What was the purchase price for the La Have when originally acquired by the Canadian government?
4.	What has been the total amount of money expended by the Canadian government or any department thereof in connection with the said La Have since its acquisition, and for what purpose or purposes have the said moneys been expended?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	The La Have is based at Halifax, N.S.
2.	The La Have has been commissioned as a Canadian naval auxiliary vessel attached to the naval research establishment, Dartmouth, N.S., and is used for oceanographic and hydrographic research.
3.	$60,000.
4.	(a)	$499,370.98;	(b) purchase price,
$60,000.00; refit 1952, $39,363.72; operating costs (1952-53), $58,410.00; operating costs (1953-54), $35,112.00; conversion costs to Dec. 31, 1953, $306,485.26.



SUCCESSION DUTY-CAPITALIZATION OF PENSION

Mr. White (Hastings-Fronlenac):: Is a pension payable to a widow of a member of the forces under the provisions of the Pension Act capitalized for succession duty purposes?


Mr. McCann:: I shall answer this question orally. The answer is yes.

Questions



WHEAT PRICE REDUCTION-CONSULTATION

Mr. Argue:: Was any consultation held between the Canadian wheat board and any farm organization or between any department or official of the government and any farm organization before the price of wheat at Fort William-Port Arthur was reduced by 7 cents per bushel?


Mr. Dickey:: No.



WHITEHORSE, YUKON-TYPHOID FEVER

Mr. Simmons:: 1.	In view of a reported case of typhoid fever at Whitehorse, Yukon, will the Department of National Health and Welfare co-operate with local authorities in taking steps to combat any danger of an epidemic?
2.	If so, what action has been and will be taken by the department in this connection?


Mr. Robertson:: 1.	Yes-the Department of National Health and Welfare is already co-operating with the local authorities and will continue to do so in taking steps to combat any danger of an epidemic.
2.	The Indian health services directorate of the Department of National Health and Welfare was notified that an Indian from Carmacks, Yukon Territory, had been admitted to the Whitehorse hospital with suspected typhoid fever. Two other suspects were also admitted.
Immediately on receipt of this information, a supply of typhoid and paratyphoid vaccine was sent to our public health nurse in that area and inoculations were started of all the
contacts known in the district where the case originated. The army medical corps was asked to co-operate and they promptly arranged for investigational and laboratory work. The one case was confirmed as a positive case of typhoid fever; the other two suspects have not to date been confirmed as having typhoid fever.
Officers of the public health engineering division of the Department of National Health and Welfare are in Edmonton and should further trouble develop, they will be able to proceed to the Yukon.



CHARTERED BANKS-PROFITS, ETC.

Mr. Quelch:: 1.	What were the profits of the ten chartered banks for each of the years 1950 to 1953 after making appropriation to contingent reserve, and provision for depreciation of bank premises and equipment?
2.	What provision was made by these banks for dominion and provincial taxation in each of these years?
3.	What was the percentage of profits shown in answer to question (1) to paid up capital in each of the years mentioned?
4.	What was the actual rate of dividend paid by these banks for those years?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1,	2 and 3. Information requested with respect to the fiscal years 1950, 1951 and 1952 was given in Hansard of March 30, 1953. For the year 1953, with amounts expressed in thousands of dollars, it is as follows:
Bank of Montreal	
The Bank of Nova Scotia	
The Bank of Toronto	
The Provincial Bank of Canada... The Canadian Bank of Commerce
The Royal Bank of Canada	
The Dominion Bank -	
Banque Canadienne Nationale

Imperial Bank of Canada	
Barclays Bank (Canada)	
(1) Net profits	(2) Provision for income taxes	(3) Percentage of profits in column (1) to paid-up capital	(3-a) Percentage of profits in column (1) to shareholders equity
$	$		
7,043	6,650	19-56	7-283,011	2,750	20-08	6-141,303	1,263	21-72	5-84426	354	8-52	5-215,789	5,558	19-30	8-418,635	8,952	24-67	8-111,394	1,430	19-91	7-161,365	1,220	19-50	8-851-402	1-786	20-03	7-1718	4	0-60	0-29
Note to column (1)-Net profits after appropriations to contingency reserves, provision for depreciation and for income taxes.
Note to column (2)-Includes provision for foreign income taxes in some cases.
Note to column (3-a)-As the undivided profits and rest accounts of the banks represent undistributed profits and moneys paid in by shareholders, a more accurate picture is given by showing profits as a percentage of the shareholders equity.

4. Rate of dividends on paid-up capital for fiscal years:
1950	1951	1952	1953Bank	per	per	per	percent	cent	cent	centMontreal 	.. 10	12	12J	14Nova Scotia ..	.. 16	16	16	18Toronto 	.. 16	16	16	17Provincial ....	.. 7	7	7	7Commerce ....	.. 10	10	12	12Royal 	.. 10	12	12J	14Dominion ....	.. 12	12	12	13Rationale ....	. . 8	10	10	12Imperial 	. . 14	14	14	15Barclays 	.. nil	nil	nil	nil



TRUCK AND EQUIPMENT LOST IN SEATTLE

Mr. McLeod:: 1.	Was a truck, loaded with military equipment en route from Edmonton to Vancouver, lost in Seattle, Washington?
2.	If so, was the vehicle and equipment recovered in good condition?
3.	What was the reason for routing this truck through Seattle?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1,	2 and 3.
A contract was made with a civilian contractor to carry a shipment of army vehicles from 45 camp ordnance railhead, Wainwright, Alta., to 8 area ordnance depot, Vancouver, B.C. The truck was driven by a civilian driver employed by the civilian contractor. Routing was at the discretion of the civilian contractor and, according to information received, other routes to Vancouver being closed because of bad weather conditions, the driver took the route via Spokane, Washington, to Vancouver.
After stopping for a few days in Seattle, the driver abandoned the loaded truck. The motor vehicles belonging to the Canadian army were delivered in good condition in accordance with the contract.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS LAY-OFFS

Mr. Hodgson:: 1.	How many men have been laid off by the Canadian National Railways since November 1, 1953?
2.	How many men have been laid off by the Canadian National Railways, since October 1, 1953, at Lindsay, Ontario?


Mr. Langlois (Gaspe):: The Canadian
National Railways advise as follows:
1.	In motive power and car department main shops there have been 1,087 men laid off since November 1, 1953.
2.	There are no main shops at Lindsay but there is a roundhouse. Since October 1, 1953, one boilermaker and two car helpers have been laid off.
83276-166J
Questions



CHARTERED BANKS


Mr. Quelch:: 1.	What was the total of the transfers made to contingent reserve fund by the ten chartered banks collectively for the period 1945 to 1954?
2.	Were any of these transfers considered to be in excess of their reasonable requirements?
3.	If so, how much additional taxation were they required to pay?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1.
Transfers to
Fiscal	contingency
years	reserves, net
1945		 $22,244
1946		 -6,902
1947		 17,243
1948		 15,524
1949		 20,993
1950		 20,600
1951		 27,965
1952		 27,069
1953		 24,834
Notes
(a)	Amounts are expressed in thousands of dollars.
(b)	Before provision for losses on investments, loans and other assets.
(c)	After deduction of retransfers to published rest accounts.
(d)	No figures are available for the fiscal year 1954.
2 and 3. Information requested with respect to the fiscal year 1945 was given in Hansard of June 28, 1950. There have been no excess transfers to contingency reserves in the years 1946 to 1952 and, subject to final audit, none in the year 1953.



BELGIAN FN RIFLE

Mr. Churchill:: 1.	Has the Belgian FN rifle been adopted for use by the Canadian army?
** What NATO countries have adopted the Belgian FN rifle?
3.	Will production of the Belgian FN rifle be undertaken in Canada? If so, when?
4.	Has the United States made a firm commitment to produce the Belgian FN rifle?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	No.
2.	Belgium and the United Kingdom.
3.	The Canadian army is purchasing two thousand (2,000) of these rifles to submit them for extensive user trials and if these prove successful it is probable that consideration would be given to adoption of the rifle and the immediate commencement of its production.
4.	Not so far as known.

Questions
BRITISH EM2 RITLES-MODIFICATION	WAR DISABILITY AND WIDOWS' PENSIONS


Mr. Churchill:: 1.	Has Canada any British EM2 rifles?
2 Has the British EM2 rifle been modified or can it be modified to use the -300 rounds?


Mr. Blanchelie:: 1.	The Canadian army has 14 EM2 rifles in -280 calibre.
2.	Yes.


Mr. Balcom:: 1.	What is the number of veterans in each province who are in receipt of war disability pensions?
2.	What is the number of widows in each province who are in receipt of war disability pensions?
3.	What is the annual liability of war disability pensions, by provinces?
4.	What is the annual liability of widows' pensions by provinces?


Mr. Bennett:: 

RESEARCH

Mr. Macdonnell:: 1.	What is the amount spent on research per capita in: (a) Canada; (b) United Kingdom; (c) United States of America; (d) U.S.S.R.?
2.	What is the amount spent on research by the
national research council in:	(a) Ottawa; (b)
^x'how much of the research expenditure of the council outside Ottawa is spent on grants for research in:	(a) universities; (b) any other
agencies?	..	.
4.	How many applications for grants in aid ot research from universities were refused?
5.	How much was involved in the refusals?
6.	To what extent has the national ^ research council undertaken to act as co-ordinator of research throughout Canada?


Mr. Dickey:: 1.	Information not available.
2.	Amounts spent on research by the national research council during 1952-53 were:
(a)	In Ottawa-$9,368,381
(b)	Elsewhere-$2,513,120.
3.	Expenditures outside of Ottawa on grants for research during 1952-53 amounted to:
(a)	$812,817 in universities (in addition $359,789 was spent on scholarships)
(b)	$201,121 in other agencies.
4 and 5. A parliamentary appropriation is available for grants. The allocation is based

both on the amount available and on the importance of the work. Grants are, therefore, refused in some cases and requests cut down in others on the basis both of the availability of funds and the potential value of the work. In 1952-53, 455 applications were received for grants approved totalling 393 amounting to $978,678.
6. The council has taken the initiative in organizing associate and special committees to co-ordinate research in specialized fields throughout Canada. During the fiscal year 1952-53 there were about 25 such committees functioning. The council is responsible for the production of such national efforts as the national building code and a large number of Canadian government specifications. The national research council also co-operates with university, provincial and federal government research organizations, and with research groups in industrial concerns.



BRITISH EM2 RIFLE  TESTS

Mr. Churchill:: 1.	What tests or user trials have been carried out by the Department of National Defence with British EM2 rifle?
2.	Have comparative tests been carried out by the Department of National Defence with the British EM2 and the Belgian FN rifles? If so, when?
3.	Where, when and under what auspices did comparative trials of the Belgian FN and the British EM2 rifles take place?
4.	Were representatives of the Department of National Defence present at these trials?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1. The Canadian army participated in technical and user trials held in the United States from February, 1950, to September, 1950. In the winter 1952-1953 the EM2 rifle was tested by the Canadian army at Fort Churchill. The Canadian army also carried out a series of technical tests of the EM2 rifle during the period 1951-53. In addition the Canadian army has received from both the United Kingdom and the United States reports of the result of tests and trials carried out by both countries.
2 and 3. Representatives of the Canadian army participated in, observed and received all the reports of both technical and user tests of both rifles which were held in the United States in 1950 under the sponsorship of the United Kingdom and the United States and which were held in the United Kingdom in 1952 under the sponsorship of the United Kingdom. Representatives of the Canadian army, Canadian Arsenals Limited and the defence research board have been testing and' working with both rifles continuously since 1950. Numerous officers and men of the Canadian army and others have repeatedly fired both rifles.
Questions
4.	(a) During the technical tests and the user trials held in the United States in 1950, two Canadian army officers were present throughout and twelve men participated in the conduct of the trials.
(b) In the trials held in the United Kingdom in 1952 the Canadian army was represented by an officer.



GRAIN CLEANED AT TERMINAL ELEVATORS

Mr. Bryson:: 1.	What was the gross weight of grain cleaned in the terminal elevators at Vancouver, Port Arthur and Fort William, from August 1, 1952 to July 31, 1953?
2.	What was the net weight of cleaned grain and what was the weight of screenings and dockage?
3.	How much of the above screenings and dockage had commercial value?
4.	What quantities were sold as (a) livestock and poultry feeds; (b) for any other purpose?


Mr. Dickey:: 1. Grain is not weighed immediately before being put through the cleaners nor are the screenings removed therefrom weighed. Statistics are therefore not available to answer the above questions as asked.
Attached is a statement showing the gross receipts of grain and dockage assessed for the crop year 1952-53.
Gross receipts of grains and dockages assessed crop year 1952-53 At Fort William-Port Arthur elevators
Grain	Amount	Dockage
	pounds	pounds
Wheat	18,191,537,400	431,344,680Oats 	3,268,805,152	37,969,704Barley 	6,045,320,544	87,825,600Rye	886,910,416	25,223,016Flax seed ...	503,878,144	93,321,64828,896,451,656	675,684,648At Pacific coast	elevators (includes Prince	Rupert)	Grain	Amount	Dockagepounds	poundsWheat 	6,659,778,960	174,392,040Oats 	66,582,302	617,202Barley 	720,842,880	7,793,520Rye 	220,864	952Flax seed ...	45,976	7,447,470,982	182,803,714



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY, WINNIPEG TO WEST COAST

Mr. Holowach:: 1.	Has the government considered the advisability of an early start on the construction of a trans-Canada highway from Winnipeg, via Saskatoon, Edmonton, Edson, Jasper and the Yellowhead route to the west coast?

Questions
2.	Has the government considered the advisability of calling a conference with the provincial governments of the four western provinces to discuss details of defence highways and other highway problems?


Mr. Bourgei:: 1.	No. The provincial governments concerned designated the route of the trans-Canada highway as passing through Winnipeg, Regina, Calgary and Vancouver.
2.	There have been three conferences assembled over the past four years by the federal government to discuss problems relative to the trans-Canada highway. No other conferences are being considered at the present time except as announced by the Minister of Transport on Tuesday, February 23, 1954; Hansard, page 2345.



FEDERAL SECURITY PANEL

Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Who are the members of the government's security panel?
2.	When was the panel set up?
3.	How many meetings has it held since it was constituted?
4.	How often does it meet?
5.	Is there any appeal (a) from a decision of a deputy minister to the security panel; (b) from the decision of the security panel?
6.	If so, what are the procedures for such appeals?



FEDERAL EMPLOYEES


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Since January 1, 1947, how many dominion government employees of all categories have been screened out of their former positions for security reasons in each department, agency, or crown corporation?
2.	Of these (a) how many have been dismissed from the department, agency or crown corporation in question; (b) how many have been moved to other less sensitive positions?


Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):: Perhaps I could make an oral statement on these two questions. It is not in the public interest to answer these questions. The security panel acts anonymously. It does not pass orders but rather recommendations to the deputy head. In my opinion it is not in the public interest to say why people were dismissed from the service, whether it was on security grounds or otherwise. I hope my hon. friend will be satisfied to drop these two questions.


Mr. Fulion:: Mr. Speaker, I tried to frame these questions in such a way that the answers, if given, would be purely factual and the answers would not give a lead to the personnel of the panel or be of aid in tracing the name of a person. I would hope that the minister might reconsider the matter and, in view of the way in which the questions are phrased, might reconsider whether or not it is possible to give an answer.

The first question does not ask for the names of any people dealt with by the panel. It only requests the names of the panel and how often it meets. What is the procedure on appeal from a decision of a security officer or from the panel itself? Again it would seem to me that is the type of factual information that would not reveal any security material that it is proper not to disclose.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not wish to debate the subject. Whether answering the questions would disclose a security matter or not is a matter of opinion. I suppose if only one man has been dismissed from his department, and we say that one man was dismissed for security reasons, it is pretty obvious who the one man is. I see no good purpose to be served. As I understand the rule, the question can be asked and the government can decide whether it is to be answered or not. I think the decision of the government must be that these two questions cannot be answered.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That they will not be answered.


Mr. Coldwell:: I think some of these
questions might be answered. I suggest it is not in accordance with our democratic way of doing things to have a board sitting and suggesting certain sentences without anyone knowing about them. The loss of a position is a very serious thing in these days.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The board does not order dismissal. It simply looks into and reports on the facts. If a case is reported to the board the facts are carefully explored and are then conveyed to the head of the responsible department. I think it would be very difficult to get people to serve on the board if their names were to be published. We all abhor McCarthyism, and so far we have been able to do a security job here without resorting to the kind of situation that arises in another country.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The point is-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I have allowed the hon. member who put the question to make comment, and perhaps I should not have allowed others, in view of citation 307, the latter part of which says:
An answer to a question cannot be insisted upon, if the answer be refused by the minister on the ground of the public interest; nor can the question be replaced on the notice paper. The refusal of a minister to answer on this ground cannot be raised as a matter of privilege.
These two questions are dropped.



LENGTH, CAPACITY, ETC.

Mr. Churchill:: 1.	What Is (a) the length without bayonet; (b) the length with bayonet; (c) the weight without bayonet; (d) the weight with bayonet, of the Belgian FN, the British EM2 and the Lee-Enfield rifles respectively?
2.	What is (a) the capacity of the magazine; (b) the rate of automatic fire; (c) the rate of aimed single shot, fire of the Belgian FN and the British EM2 rifles respectively?
3.	Can the user shift from single shot action to automatic action or vice versa instantaneously with the Belgian FN rifle?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	Belgian FN
(a) Length without bayonet, 41-5 in.; (b) Length with bayonet, 50-5 in.; (c) Weight without bayonet (including 20 rounds of ammunition), 10-6 lbs.; (d) Weight with bayonet (including 20 rounds of ammunition), 11-3 lbs.
British EM2
(a) Length without bayonet, 35-6 in.; (b) Length with bayonet, 44-6 in.; (c) Weight without bayonet (including 20 rounds of ammunition) 10 8 lbs.; (d) Weight with bayonet (including 20 rounds of ammunition), 11-5 lbs.
Lee-Enfield
(a) Length without bayonet, 44-5 in.; (b) Length with bayonet, 53 in.; (c) Weight without bayonet (including 10 rounds of ammunition) 8 8 lbs.; (d) Weight with bayonet (including 10 rounds of ammunition), 9-6 lbs.
2.	(a) FN, 20 rounds; EM2, 20 rounds; (b) FN, 650-700 rds per min is the cyclical rate; EM2, 650-700 rds per min is the cyclical rate;
(c)	FN, 60 rds per min; EM2, 60 rds per min.
These figures are of course approximate.
3.	There are two designs of change lever with the FN rifle. With one design the user can fire the FN semi-automatic (single shot) only. With the other design of change lever, the user can fire either single shot or full automatic and can effect this change instantaneously.



WEAPON STANDARDIZATION


Mr. Churchill:: 1.	Did the Minister of National Defence or any representative of his department recommend the adoption of or indicate a preference for the Belgian FN rifle at any conference of NATO countries on the subject of the standardization of weapons?
2.	If so, when and at what conference?


Joseph-Adéodat Blanchette: 1 and 2. Discussion at NATO meetings took place on the round but not on the rifle and the answer to this question is consequently no.
Orders for Returns QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS



WIRELESS STATION, SPOTTED ISLAND, NEWFOUNDLAND

Mr. Noseworthy:: 1.	What was the total cost to the government of erecting and operating a wireless station at Spotted island, Newfoundland, during the war?
2.	How was this cost made up?
3.	For what period of time was this station In operation?
4.	When was it dismantled?
5.	What amount, if any, was recovered from the salvage of material or equipment when this station was dismantled?



EXPRESS AND FREIGHT RATES, TORONTO-WINDSOR

Mr. White (Middlesex East):: 1.	What is the tin-canned commodity freight rate per mile on a minimum carload of canned peas from Toronto to Windsor?
2.	What is the rate per mile paid by Canadian National Express to Canadian National Railways for hauling (a) a sixty foot express and baggage car from Toronto to Windsor; (b) a ninety foot express and baggage car from Toronto to Windsor?
3.	In each of the above mentioned cases, are the Canadian National Railways the owners of (a) railway mail cars; (b) express and baggage cars?
MICA CREEK DAM Mr. Holowach:
1.	Has the federal government received any report or recommendation from the international joint commission, or any member thereof, respecting the construction of a dam at Mica creek?
2.	Has any expenditure been made to date in surveys and other preliminary work in connection with this proposed dam?
3.	If so, in what amount?
4.	What steps are being taken to proceed with the construction of this dam?
5.	Has the government received resolutions or submissions from anyone suggesting that no further expenditure be made on the Big Bend route of the trans-Canada highway on account of the proposed dam?
6.	If so, from whom?
7.	Has the government considered the advisability of contributing financial aid to the permanent improvement of the all-weather Yellowhead route from the Alberta border to Kamloops, as an alternative to the problem raised by the proposed dam?
ARCHITECTS-RETAINED BY GOVERNMENT Mr. Fulton:
1.	In each fiscal year since March 31, 1950, how many architects in private practice have been engaged or retained for any purpose by the dominion government, whose remuneration for their services has been on an individual professional basis, rather than by way of being placed on the government payroll?
2.	How much has been paid for the services of such architects in each such fiscal year?

Orders for Returns
ARCHITECTS-EMPLOYED IN GOVERNMENT	THE BANK ACT



DEPARTMENTS

Mr. Fulton:: 1.	How many persons are employed as architects in each department or agency of government other than the Department of Public Works?
2.	What is the total of salaries provided to be paid to such architects, by department or agencies respectively in the coming fiscal year?



MARGARINE PRODUCTION

Mr. Boisvert:: 1.	How many factories were producing margarine in Canada, by provinces, in 1950, 1951, 1952 and 1953?
2.	Under what trade marks was the margarine offered to Canadians by the various producers?
3.	How many pounds of margarine were produced in Canada, by provinces, in 1950, 1951, 1952 and 1953?
4.	Is there any other kind or kinds of substitute for butter, other than margarine, manufactured in Canada?
5.	If so, what are the various kinds and in which provinces are these substitutes produced?
6.	How many pounds were produced in Canada, by provinces, for 1950, 1951, 1952 and 1953?



WOMEN CLEANERS, WINNIPEG    HOURS AND WAGES

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Has the government any information as to the hourly and monthly rates of pay for women cleaners in Winnipeg employed by (a) the federal government; (b) the provincial government; (c) the city of Winnipeg; (d) any representative private employers?
2.	H so, what are such hourly and monthly rates?
3.	What number of hours and days per week are worked in all cases?
4.	Is consideration now being given to increasing the pay of women cleaners in federal public buildings in Winnipeg so as to restore the amount thereof to what it was prior to the institution of the five-day week?



ADULTERATED BUTTER

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Have any persons or companies been prosecuted, at any time since July 1, 1952, on charges of mixing butter with margarine?
2.	If so, what are the names and addresses of such persons or companies?
3.	What quantities of adulterated butter were involved in each case, and what penalties were imposed in each case?
4.	Is the government in possession of any adulterated butter seized in connection with such prosecutions?
5.	If so, what quantity of such adulterated butter did the government obtain, and how much does it now have on hand?
6.	What does the government propose to do with such adulterated butter?
7.	What is the food value of this butter?
8.	Was any of this adulterated butter offered to the public for sale, or to the government for purchase under its price support program? If so, how much was sold to the public and how much was purchased by the government?



PROVISION FOR DECENNIAL REVISION, EXTENSION OF CHARTERS, ETC.,

Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the decennial revision of the Bank Act and the extension of the charters of the existing chartered banks till July 1, 1964, and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. George Prudham (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):: Mr. Speaker, on Thursday last, as reported at page 2428 of Hansard, the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) asked this question:
Can the minister inform the house of the approximate date when representatives of his department will be meeting with the coal operators of Nova Scotia and the mine workers jointly for the purpose of determining the future of the coal industry?
The date for the proposed meeting has not yet been finally settled, but the suggested date is Friday, March 12.


Mr. Brooks:: May I ask a supplementary question. Will there be a meeting in New Brunswick with the coal operators there, as well?


George Prudham: If the proposed meeting takes place, as suggested, on Friday next, the coal operators and mine union representatives, provincial governments and the dominion coal board will all be represented.


Mr. Johnston (Bow River):: Will the mine operators of western Canada be included?


George Prudham: No, not at this meeting. This is a maritime problem.


Charles Edward Johnston: Does the committee intend to hold a meeting later to discuss the matter with western coal operators?


George Prudham: We have had several meetings with western coal operators, and we will be glad to meet them at any time they wish to come.



REDUCTION IN EXPORTS-REQUEST FOR STATEMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Dufferin-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Acting Prime Minister. In view of a statement issued today by the Department of Trade and Commerce, has the Acting Prime Minister any comment to make on the fact that our exports for January fell off to the extent of $100 million less than those for December, and were $55-9 million less than those for the month of January last year? Is this due to our reduced wheat sales, or what is the reason?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Many categories of exports were down, one of which was newsprint. I think my hon. friend knows that just as much newsprint was produced in January as usual, but part of that production was not shipped. The weather has something to do with it. Of course wheat shipments were down, as compared with January a year ago, owing to a slackening off of demand. But I think my hon. friend and his associates have reason to know that we cannot judge exports by the figures for any one month. Any period less than three months can be very deceptive. Some theories have been built up on exports for one month that have collapsed in succeeding months.



IMMIGRATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. M. Hamilton (Notre Dame de
Grace): I should like to ask the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration whether he can now give an answer to my question of February 25 with respect to Harold C. Banks.
Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked if the file on Harold C. Banks had been mislaid, as was reported in a newspaper in the month of August. The file has never been mislaid that the department knows about. It is still in our possession and always has been.



ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stuart Sinclair Garson: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for 83276-167
Inquiries of the Ministry Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked me, upon what authority in connection with the commitment for contempt of court of Edward Bryan of Cornwall, Chief Justice McRuer could in fact substitute the sentence of a fine for imprisonment after sentence had been commenced. The question raised by the hon. member had to do with the administration of justice, which is a provincial responsibility. I had no material before me indicating the basis of the chief justice's authority to make such an order. I had no responsibility for having such material before me. I therefore declined at that time to answer my hon. friend's question.
While there may be a distinct difference of opinion as to the propriety of asking such a question in this house, once it has been asked I think it would be unfair to Chief Justice McRuer that I should not complete the record of this incident by placing upon it Chief Justice McRuer's own statement as to his authority to make this order which the hon. member for Prince Albert has questioned. I have accordingly secured from Chief Justice McRuer the following statement, which is in the third person:
The matter was brought before the court by an application made by Mr. Kelly, the counsel for the accused Balcombe in the case of Regina v. Balcombe, and the material upon which the order was based was placed before the chief justice McRuer on this application. The chief justice, exercising the inherent power vested in a judge of a court of superior jurisdiction, directed that the publishers and the distributor in the Cornwall area should be brought before the court to show cause why they should not be committed for contempt of court. In imposing the penalty, Chief Justice McRuer exercised the inherent power vested in a judge of any court of superior jurisdiction in a matter of this character, and likewise the chief justice in remitting part of Mr. Bryan's sentence, exercised an inherent power that is vested in a judge who imposes such a sentence when he considers that the service of part of the sentence may have sufficiently purged the contempt of the prisoner.
The statement of fact in the question-
That is, Mr. Speaker, the question which the hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked me yesterday.
-that a fine was substituted for imprisonment, is not correct. The order releasing Mr. Bryan was made upon condition not that he should pay a fine, but that he should pay the costs of the application of Mr. Kelly, the counsel for the accused Balcombe.
Statements appearing in the press that this order was made after representations had been heard by the chief justice from citizens of Cornwall are likewise incorrect. The order was made entirely on Chief Justice McRuer's own initiative after consultation with the crown counsel in the Balcombe case.
2622	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act That is the end of the statement.
May I add one further note. The provincial authorities within whose field of responsibility the administration of justice comes are apparently in agreement with Chief Justice McRuer upon the point in question. Deputy Attorney General Magone of Ontario is quoted in this morning's Toronto Globe and Mail as having said last night, in reference to this matter:
If the judge feels the contempt was purged after the time spent in jail he is quite within his right in reducing sentence.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hen. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs): Mr. Speaker, on February 22 the hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked a question about the Korean political conference to be held in Geneva. A few days ago, on February 24, this government received a formal invitation to attend that conference, and that invitation has now been accepted.
Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act to meet present day requirements for defence and other purposes, including authority to enter into agreements with the provinces to grant assistance for rehabilitation training of disabled persons; also to provide for an increase in the number of members on the vocational training advisory council, for a per diem allowance for members of the council; and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.


Milton Fowler Gregg: At this stage I should like to make a brief statement to outline in a general way what is involved in this resolution. As the committee knows, the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act, which was first enacted in 1942, was designed to provide legislative authority for the carrying out of the various forms of training for discharged members of the armed forces, and for such forms of vocational training or assistance for vocational training as could be foreseen as coming within the immediate post-war period.
The act provides that all training may be undertaken by provincial authorities under [Mr. Garson.l

agreements between the provincial and federal governments providing for federal financial assistance.
There has been established under the act a vocational training advisory council which includes representatives of the provinces of employers, of organized labour, of women, of veterans and of other interested groups. The work of this council has been of very great assistance to the administration of the act. In passing I should like to pay tribute to the excellent work that has been done by the members of the council. Part of the amendments proposed here are for the special purpose, which I shall indicate later, of increasing the number from 16 to 20.
It is proposed to revise the wording of certain provisions of the act in the light of present-day training requirements. These differ in some respects from those existing at the time the act first came into force. These changes have been discussed with provincial authorities and the advisory council has expressed the desirability of the changes in the act and in the training program itself.
Training programs are conducted under the provisions of the Vocational Training Coordination Act through federal-provincial agreements, namely, the vocational training agreement, the vocational schools' assistance agreement, the apprenticeship agreement and the correspondence courses agreement.
Under the provisions of the vocational training agreement, the federal government co-operates with the provinces in the following types of programs: (a) the training of former members of Her Majesty's forces who are approved for such training by the Department of Veterans Affairs; (b) training for unemployed workers referred by the national employment service and for whom such training is required to fit them for suitable employment; (c) trades training for members of the armed forces and the provision of civilian instructors for schools operated by the armed forces; (d) training of skilled and semi-skilled workers for defence production; (e) training of foremen and supervisors in industrial establishments; (f) training for young people from rural communities who are not served by the existing provincial school systems; (g) financial aid to needy worthy university students and to nurses in training.
That covers the vocational training agreement, Mr. Chairman. Under the terms of the vocational schools' assistance agreement, financial aid is provided to the provinces for the construction, equipment and operation of technical, vocational and trade schools of
MARCH 3, 1954	2b23
less than university grades. I am sure hon. members will realize that in view of the great number of veterans who have been trained in skills under this act, the greater part of that program has been completed. In other words, the provinces, with the assistance of the federal government, have established a pretty substantial set-up of well-equipped vocational schools across the country; but it is under that section that that has been done.
Under the provisions of the third one, the apprenticeship agreement, training is provided in full-time and part-time classes for apprentices registered with departments of labour under the provisions of provincial apprenticeship acts.
I now come to the fourth group. Under the provisions of the correspondence agreement, the federal government shares with the provincial governments in the cost of the preparation of vocational correspondence courses which are made available under the same terms and conditions to students in all parts of Canada.


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I hesitate to interrupt the minister in the middle of his remarks, but I should like to suggest to the committee that there be sufficient quietness to enable those hon. members who wish to hear the minister's explanation to do so.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Under the amendments to the act as set forth in the bill, authorization is being sought for the provision of rehabilitation training to disabled civilians. At this point I should like to state that I do not want for a moment to overestimate the importance of the total number of amendments that are forthcoming here. This act has proved itself to be a very effective one; but there were certain routine amendments that were required, one affecting the council and other items.
To my mind one of the greatest improvements is that one which provides for rehabilitation training of disabled civilians in cooperation with the provinces. Then there is a provision to facilitate other types of training within the authority of parliament which may be required for other government departments. Authority is being asked to increase the membership of the vocational training council so as to provide representation from all the provinces as well as from other groups. There is also the question of the appointment of alternate members to act in the absence of the regular members. That is being brought forward after a good deal of discussion and upon the recommendation of the council. There were arguments for it 83276-1674
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act and there were arguments against it, but it appeared that the arguments for it were the stronger. The other amendments in the bill are made necessary because we are no longer in an immediate post-war period.


Mrs. Fairclough:: Mr. Chairman, I am sure that all members of this committee will congratulate the minister upon what has proved to be a very useful act. Some ten years having elapsed since it came into force, I suppose there are certain things that need to be amended. I was interested in the minister's remark that it was thought wise to increase the number on the council from 16 to 20. If I understood him correctly, this change is made because of the need for representation from all provinces. Since that time we have had another province added to Canada.
There was also the matter of an increase in the per diem rate for members of the council during its sittings. I understand that this rate has not been changed since the inception of the act, and certainly if the amount mentioned in the act was considered appropriate in 1942 I suppose there should be some adjustment at the present time.
We really have no criticism of the provisions which the minister has outlined so far. When we actually see the amendments we will probably have further remarks to make. There are some things that I should like to know. When we get into the field of training disabled civilians we enter a type of training different from that which would be given to students or to young people, as some of these people quite necessarily will not be young.
This opens up the question, under whose auspices will the training take place? Is it planned to confine this training to the schools or will some of the excellent rehabilitation centres which are operating throughout the country be authorized to carry on the training of older people? It seems to me that these centres would be far better qualified to do that work. Many of these people would have been out of school for some time and I think the set-up in the rehabilitation centre, especially those which I have in mind, would be admirably suited to the training of older people.
I should like to know also whether those who are to be trained in the trades will be trained along apprenticeship lines and whether that will be done in vocational schools or in conjunction with the various trades concerned. These are questions that interest us. As I said before, when the minister brings in the amendments we will have a better idea of what we want to
2624	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act discuss. At the present time I should like very much to have answers to the questions which I have put along these lines.


Mr. Gillis:: Mr. Chairman-


Milton Fowler Gregg: I wonder if I might answer the hon. member's questions.


Clarence Gillis: Why not wait for the bill?
Mr. Chairman, I have no objection to the minister answering them, but I do think the questions should be answered when we have the bill before us so that our questions may be relevant. I listened to the minister but of course one cannot get the gist of everything he said with regard to the amendments. While these matters sound all right on paper they certainly do not work out in practice as the paper indicates they should. I have talked a lot over the years about vocational training.
The limiting factors in regard to vocational training in this country are still present. First, if you are going to have a vocational training system in this country you must have schools. That is a first requirement. We have not the schools. We are not going to get the schools under the present financial arrangements among the dominion, provincial and municipal governments. The provincial and federal governments can say, and they have said, that they will contribute their share of the cost, and then it is passed right back to the municipality.
Seventy-five per cent of the municipalities across this country are not in a position to take advantage of that government offer and the result is that we do not have schools. I do not care what regulations you may write, if a community has not the facilities for training they will be valueless. That is No. 1. Some thinking must be done by the provincial and federal governments if we are going to have vocational training, and that thinking must be on the matter of financing the establishment of schools.
I come now to my second point. While the vocational training system did assist a large number of veterans, there were thousands of good soldiers who came back to this country after making the maximum contribution in the war and who were never able to take advantage of the regulations because of academic limitations. I have placed on the record a good many times figures showing the number of soldiers who came out of the last war, who never had a job and who had not got to the eighth grade in school. They went into the service and served four or five years and when they came back to this country they were unable to take up vocational training or get into any kind of


school. They went back to the ranks of the unemployed as untrained men. There were thousands in that class. No matter what the regulations are, even though you get schools, this type of person will not be able to take advantage of any kind of vocational training.
The same situation exists in connection with recruiting for the air force, army and navy. We are using very attractive slogans, we are saying to these young men, "Come in and we will give you a trade; make the army your future". There are thousands of sensible, clean-cut boys who are ready to go into the service, but they cannot pass the academic tests. Some of them came to see me in this building, boys of 19 or 20 years of age. When I asked them what about the service or the vocational training system they hung their heads and in many cases admitted that they had not got beyond the sixth grade. They have more brains than most hon. members in this house, including myself, though they have never had a chance to develop them. That is how you get potential gangsters or bank robbers. If the minister or the department or the government are going to take a look at this vocational training problem, then the first two things they must have a look at are the provision of schools across this country and the necessary instruction to enable these young people to take advantage of their opportunities.
If these young men of 19 and 20 years of age, who come from families numbering perhaps 12 to 15 members, have to go out and work instead of going through high school, in order to support other members of the family, then they will be in no position to take advantage of this scheme. Let us try and provide in the curriculum of the schools the academic instruction necessary to enable those young boys to take a vocational training course in diesel engines, electronics, or something else.
If we do not do that we will be wasting thousands upon thousands of potentially good citizens across this country. We gave that type of person a very raw deal in the aftermath of the war. He was good enough to fight but he was not sufficiently trained academically even to take a vocational training course, and he was discriminated against. I have said that many times in this house, and I believe now is the time we should assist them. We have unemployment in this country now. It may continue, though we hope not; but there are thousands of young fellows across this country today and unless we provide them with a means of

Vocational Training Co-ordination Act
getting into a place where they can get some training you are going to have trouble with them, and plenty of trouble.
What is essential now is not a whole lot more regulations, but the provision of schools and the necessary instruction to enable the young people of this country to get into these schools.
I believe it will be necessary to take a look at the present set-up in the services, because at the present time we are keeping out of the services thousands of young people who would perhaps make it their career if they had the necessary academic training. But at the moment they are out in the street.
These are the things I am concerned with. I am concerned about the provision of schools. I am concerned about giving the boy who had to leave school before reaching the eighth or tenth grade a chance to go back for a year and pick up the knowledge of mathematics necessary to get into a trade course. If we do not meet these two requirements, then we shall be defeating the whole intention of the vocational training act.
I am not going to quarrel with any of the regulations or with what the minister had to say, but I do wish to emphasize these two points, because if they are not taken care of we will not be meeting the purpose of this legislation. I am not concerned whether we pass these vocational training regulations or not, because vocational training is designed to take care of the type of people with whom I am not concerned. The boy who gets through high school or obtains a university education is in a good position to wrestle for himself. But it is the thousands and thousands of victims of economic circumstances who do not get through school that vocational training should be designed to look after.
That is the angle I am concerned with, and I will wait until the bill comes before the house before I make any other observations on the matter.


Mr. Mclvor:: It was my duty to obtain considerable information about what we are doing to assist the completely handicapped, and I was surprised to find the extent to which the Department of Labour, the Department of National Health and Welfare, and the Department of Veterans Affairs co-operate with representatives from the provincial governments. I learned that in our schools we have provided teachers who can be of great assistance to those handicapped persons. The situation may be somewhat different in Cape Breton, but from what I have seen in Fort William I know we have
provided in our schools the type of teacher who can look after handicapped people whether they are deaf, dumb, blind or otherwise handicapped. I know that if such persons are fortunate enough to get into these vocational schools they are treated in a very generous manner. The complete co-operation which now exists between the Department of Labour and the Department of Veterans Affairs convinces me that the completely handicapped persons will be well looked after. I am looking forward with keen interest to the enactment of this legislation, for I believe there are the large number of people who are not completely handicapped, such as women who can use their hands on a typewriter, or in other ways, who will be able to benefit under this act when it becomes law.
I know of one young boy who was handicapped but had the use of his hands. He had artistic gifts and considerable initiative. That boy was able to design cards and finally sell them. However, he could not make very much without a printing machine and his father and mother mortgaged their home in order to get a machine. He made more money than anyone else in that community and he finally became a millionaire.
I appreciate the interest of the Minister of Labour in these handicapped people, and whether we have-


Mr. Ferguson:: I would like to ask my hon. friend a question. What kind of dollar bills was your friend printing?


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: It was a machine which would print the cards which he designed.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: If they were acceptable, no wonder he made all that money.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I am simply giving the information for what it is worth. The veterans in our community appreciate very much what has been done for the handicapped, and veterans in this house wiil know that what has been done is considerable. This assistance is now being extended to civilians, and I am sure that before the minister is through everything necessary will be done in cooperation with the provinces and with other ministers in the government to assist those who are handicapped.
There is one other problem. When a man goes along with only one arm or one leg it is difficult to get industries to employ him. These men or women could do a job if they were given the opportunity. However, I am sure the minister recognizes that as an outstanding problem.
2628	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Mr. Chairman, I noted the remarks of the hon. member for Cape Breton South and he made a statement that gangsters are born from a group of people who it is said are superior to hon. members of the House of Commons. I am delighted to hear that the House of Commons permits people-


Clarence Gillis: I included myself.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: -of inferior ability not to become gangsters. That is certainly beneficial. Gentlemen, you are not going to become gangsters, as my hon. friend has inferred. I am sure you will all be delighted to learn that you are not going to become gangsters, and that no doubt will be of benefit to all.
As regards vocational training, after the war that training was granted to soldiers and they had the privilege of taking a course in vocational training. Some of these men who were granted this privilege simply took it because it was free, and money was allocated to their families or their wives while they were taking their training. Let us be factual about the expenditure made by the federal and provincial governments and the municipalities.
I have a concrete case in my own home town where the man was a bricklayer, and a fairly good one. His son had served overseas in a certain capacity, one which was not very hazardous. When the boy came back home to this country his father sent him down to take a university course at Hamilton, Ontario, where he would get a mortarboard for his head, apparently, as a bricklayer. After graduating he came back to my home town and one of the first acts performed by this gentleman was the casting of a brick through the main window of the veterans association.


Mr. Martin:: The hon. member says that person obtained his training in Hamilton?


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Yes; the town of the hon. member for Hamilton East (Mr. Ross).


Ellen Louks Fairclough: We train them for everything there.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: When he started bricklaying the father said, "Heavens, they have taken away from him all of the real bricklaying that I tried to teach him as a young boy." He is now back in the army where his services and his ability will be recognized.
There is no doubt in the world about it that Canada-never mind about the rest of the world-does not recognize the necessity for the proper guidance of our youth and the benefits to be derived therefrom. We are building institutions for the purpose of housing our criminals, and those who are
'Mr. Mclvor.l

insane. The primary cause of crime among our youth and of a great deal of insanity is the improper rearing of our youth.
There is not a municipality in Canada that is contributing 4 per cent of its income towards the welfare of the youth in the community. In my own community I endeavoured to have set aside from the taxpayers' funds a certain sum of money which did not amount to 1 per cent and which would be applied to uses for the benefit of the youth of our community. This measure was never passed. But in visiting our jails I had found young men and young women of 15, 16 and 18 years of age who were going to be tried1 and sentenced for some crime which I, when at their age, might easily have been guilty of if I had not had opportunity to use up the energy I had at that age. If I had been in identically the same position as that in which those people were, I probably would have committed the same crimes.
Canada should set an example to the world. From one end of Canada to the other it should be preached that we need to realize that, in order to economize, we must devise a method by means of which to build up the health of our youth, thereby building up their mentality, and1 thus eliminating the necessity for expenditures on jails and institutions for the insane. We in Canada could save-and nobody will deny it-hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars if we built up our youth to the stage where they learned to live properly. If we would keep them from temptation and give them the desire to develop the body, thereby developing the mind, we could eliminate the great horror which now confronts us with regard to extensive construction of penal institutions.
Each member of this House of Commons should just simply stop and recollect what is going on in his own community. Hon. members should be conversant with the actual facts concerning young people who are weekly brought into court before the magistrates and charged with offences that we all, being human, could have been charged with at their ages. If you do not play professional hockey or baseball, there is little opportunity for such pastimes. There are few corner lots nowadays on which the minors in our community can use up their energy. The alleyways, poolrooms, main streets and corners are where they become conversant with some place or other in which to commit a crime that is not innately in their make-up. But it is innately in the make-up of a young boy or young girl to use up his

or her energies. We know where they could use up those energies beneficially, namely on the playgrounds surrounding our schools, under capable and competent instructors.
I ask members of parliament to think of their own communities. I am sorry to say- but I am not afraid1 to do so-that their communities are similar to those in my own constituency where almost the last thing they think about is expenditure for the development of our youth in order to keep those people in the future free of our penal institutions which are today imposing a terrific burden of taxation on the taxpayers of Canada, a situation brought about primarily and principally through neglect of our youth.
The federal government should waste no time in getting together with the provincial governments and with the municipal authorities, in coming down to earth as men and saying, "Just how can this condition be remedied? Just what can the municipalities afford?" These municipalities must bear in mind the fact that they have a terrific obligation towards those who will be the future taxpayers of Canada, namely the youth of their municipalities. Let not the municipalities slip out from under their burden. Let not the provincial governments fail to do their share. But as a unit composed of men with hearts and having consideration, appreciation and vision, let the federal authorities, the provincial authorities and the municipal authorities set about attaining one decisive and conclusive objective, namely the building up of our youth. Let them spend some money on the youth of Canada, thereby keeping them out of the penal institutions which are costing this country untold millions of dollars at present, and the amount is increasing annually.
I make this plea in the House of Commons today and I hope it is carried across Canada. I say that we have all neglected our duty to the future generations of Canada. Build up our boys and girls physically and they will become the people we want them to be mentally. They will become citizens we are proud of. They will be capable of entering our educational institutions and of absorbing the instruction we are paying for. Eliminate the unnecessary frivolities in our schools. Teach them to read, to write and to know the geography, the history and the traditions of the country which we all love. Then, when these children grow up and reach the point where they face the future, without the guidance of a father and mother, they will be at least partially capable of meeting the situation which confronts them. They will
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act be capable of self-preservation. The thought will be in the back of their minds that they come from a great country that has done them a service they justly deserve.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I wonder if the next speaker would mind if I just said a word in reply to the hon. member for Simcoe North. I will agree with him immediately that we, as older people, have not done our complete duty to our young people. I will agree that the federal and provincial governments, as well as the municipal governments, have not done all they should. But I do deny most emphatically the age-old inference one might take from his remarks that the young people of our day are going to the dogs. They are not going to the dogs. I contend, and I know there are many members in this house on both sides who will agree with me, that the young people today have better health, better training and a more serious outlook on their responsibilities than the young people had when my hon. friend and I were boys.
I shall come to the other point. I should like to challenge in a friendly fashion the statement he made at the outset of his remarks. He cited the example of a veteran of the second world war who had the advantage of the university training program, and from that individual case-we can always pick them out in any category-he drew general conclusions.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: No, I did not. You drew
them.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Put it this way. He gave every member of this house the feeling that he meant general conclusions should be drawn from the example of that individual bricklayer whose training apparently had not worked out in the way it was intended. I am sure we have all seen in our own constituencies-I know the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra has seen it-the magnificent way in which the vocational training program has worked out with respect to our ex-service men and women of world war II. I saw it first when I was minister of the veterans affairs department, and I have seen it since coming to the Department of Labour. I feel the hon. member for Simcoe North is not justified in taking the somewhat pessimistic attitude he has taken this afternoon. I am sure that upon further thought and upon investigating what has happened in the field of training young people in his own riding, he will have cause to amend the thoughts he expressed today.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: In reply to the minister-
2628	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Order. The hon. member for Simcoe North will have an opportunity to speak later. I had seen the hon. member for Saskatoon first.


Mr. Knight:: I have been interested, Mr. Chairman, in this little debate, heated at times, between the Minister of Labour and the hon. member for Simcoe North.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Not the least bit heated.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I feel there is something in what both of them said. I certainly agree with the minister that youth is not going to the dogs.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Nobody mentioned the dogs, so far as I know.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Give me a moment; I am coming to the justification of your point. I think also that perhaps the member for Simcoe North is justified in saying that we have some responsibility in seeing that our youth do not go to the dogs.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Hear, hear; that was my view.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I believe that if there is a vocational training scheme or any other way in which the government, in conjunction with the provinces, can give this or any other kind of education, that is all to the good in the accomplishment of the hon. member's objective, namely that youth shall not go to the dogs.
Personally, as one who has had a good deal of experience with young people from time to time, I have the greatest respect for the good sense, collectively, of the young people today. One cannot say very much about the bill that is preceded by this particular resolution since we have not seen it.
I can merely say that I welcome it. It seems to cover a fairly broad field. I see my hon. friend the Minister of National Health and Welfare in his seat, and I suppose he is expecting I shall go into a speech about the necessity of federal aid to education. I warn him I shall make no such appeal.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I was just exchanging an affectionate greeting with the hon. member for Simcoe North.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I was saying that this resolution certainly covers a very wide field, and I believe it could be termed a measure of federal aid towards education. It covers such things as grants for university students, and I certainly have been advocating that for a long time. I am interested also in seeing that it does cover some aid to student nurses. Whether this is a move to promote education


or whether it is merely a move to promote training, may I point out to my hon. friend that, in my opinion, the two things go hand in hand, although they might appear to be altogether different. I think they should go hand in hand. I am sure there will be a good deal of academic work mixed up with this particular scheme for vocational training. I do not imagine any of the provinces will raise any objection under section 92 of the British North America Act to accepting money for this particular purpose.
I know that it might be argued that this is not education as such, within the ordinary definition of the term. It certainly could not be called academic education, but as I say I imagine there will be a good deal of necessary academic education in connection with this vocational training program. I should like to say a word in support of what the hon. member for Cape Breton South has said about the need for good equipment, particularly the need of trade schools. In view of the fact that we are becoming increasingly an industrial nation, we must encourage the trade schools and the teaching of trades to young people. There are a great many young people who are not suited perhaps for more academic education. There are a great many young people, and it is their own business, who are not interested in it but who are definitely interested in doing something with their hands. They form an extremely important part of this country because we are becoming more and more an industrial nation. I believe that if we are to hold our place in the industrial world today we shall have to give more attention to trade schools.
We have not the schools, as my colleague pointed out. Perhaps we have the teachers, but I would suggest to the minister that even the teacher of vocational work needs some training in teaching itself. One might say, why do not a great many of our students go on to higher academic training rather than into the trades? I have given one or two of the reasons relating to the matter of taste. Another reason is that a great many people today cannot afford a high school education. Oh, you say, but we have free high school education in the provinces, have we not? That, sir, is one of the greatest fallacies that one could state in regard to education. I have no statistics with me because I did not know the debate on this resolution would take this turn, but if one examines the figures showing the number of people who take high school education in this country, and if one considers the class standing-I am speaking now in a financial way-enjoyed by parents, one gets a considerable shock.
MARCH 3, 1354	2S23
We find that when we come to the children of people in the higher professional classes the figure is somewhat over 80 per cent- I think it is 88 per cent-who enjoy the benefits of higher education. But the scale goes gradually down. When we come to the skilled labour group we get a much smaller proportion whose children get high school education. Then when we get down to unskilled labour the percentage goes down very far indeed.
I should like to say a word about nurses, particularly student nurses. I have no authority to speak on the question, but, by strange coincidence, my first interference, if one might call it that, or my first participation in public life, was a battle on behalf of student nurses who, in my opinion, were having a pretty raw deal, back in the time of the thirties. Of course, they were not the only people who had a bad time in those days. We do know however that they had to work very hard. A good deal of it was rough work of the kind which I should think nurses ought not to do regularly. Their accommodation was very poor, and their pay amounted to nothing at all.
It can be argued of course that the nurse is receiving a valuable training which, outside a hospital, would cost a tremendous amount of money. Even in those days however they did not receive even sufficient for pocket money, and I hope they will be treated differently from now on. They play an essential and most valuable part in our community. With the growing feeling of responsibility by governments and organizations in health matters and schemes, I do hope nurses will be given a better deal in the matter of their training.
While I am on my feet I should like to make what I believe is an interesting point. I am surrounded by doctors in the house, and undoubtedly they know more about this than I do. I have always felt however that perhaps three years is too long a period for the training of a nurse. I have never been able to rid myself of the idea that somehow or other the third year of training was, if I may put it this way, a bonus for the institution training them. In other words, after the first two years, I think a nurse is a pretty competent person, and that she should be compensated to some considerable extent for the third year of her training. Either that or she should be given her certificate at the end of her second year and allowed to practise her profession.
I have no doubt there are arguments against this contention. I remember one doctor, a friend of mine, who kept insisting that nurses were taught many things they did not need to know, things that came within
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act the functions of a doctor, and which a nurse certainly would not be expected to perform if there was a doctor within forty or fifty miles. In his view the only justification for certain types of training would be in respect of nurses who might hold positions away up in the north country or at points where no medical help was available, and where the nurse might have to do her best under those conditions.
I asked what he would substitute. He said that if the authorities insisted upon keeping her around the hospital for an extra year she should be given lots of training in public relations and the use of good English. Perhaps he was right in that respect.
I believe I am straying farther afield than I had intended when I began speaking. Let me repeat that I welcome this bill, as I always welcome any expenditure of money for purposes which could be termed educational. I believe vocational training is a particularly valuable part of education as such, and of course has tremendous value on its own account.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Mr. Chairman, I regret exceedingly that the minister has considered what I said as an indication that I believe the youth of Canada have gone to the dogs. There was no mention whatever in my speech about dogs. I did try to imply that I did not believe in unnecessary frills in education, and I indicated that in some cases there has been a waste of the taxpayers' money. I did try to impress upon the House of Commons the fact that the federal government in Canada should do something for the youth of Canada-that something should be done federally, provincially and municipally. At no time did I say that our youth were going to the dogs.
I did say however that our penal institutions and institutions for the insane are bulging today because in the past we have neglected the youth of this country. I pleaded with the government, through the Minister of Labour and his colleagues in the cabinet, to work in conjunction with provincial and municipal governments so that a program could be carried out harmoniously for the benefit of the youth of this country. There was no idea in the back of my mind, nor did I express any such idea, that the youth of Canada were associated with pups or dogs.
My plea was that the government should realize the situation and, through our schools and other institutions of learning, develop our youth physically and mentally, so that they may be capable of avoiding the pitfalls that confront all of us as we go along the thorny and difficult path of life. That was my plea.
2630	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act And I am very sorry that the Minister of Labour misconstrued it, and chose to say nothing about his view concerning development through action by the federal, provincial and municipal governments. I believe something worth while could be done in this way to help our youth develop themselves mentally and physically so as to avoid the rocky shores of penal institutions, and institutions for the weak-minded which, unless they are given help, some are bound to enter.
This is my plea. I am sorry the Minister of Labour has miscontrued it, and has said that I have expressed the view that the youth of Canada were going to the dogs. I say the youth of Canada will go to the dogs unless something is done with some degree of expedition and efficiency, and at considerably more cost than all three branches of government are spending today on this most valuable asset, the youth of our country.


Milton Fowler Gregg: If I misconstrued my hon.
friend's remarks, Mr. Chairman, I am very sorry.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Mr. Chairman, as my department is interested in this matter I thought perhaps I should say a word or two in the debate on the resolution. First of all, may I say to the hon. member for Simcoe North that he misunderstood the intervention by the Minister of Labour. All hon. members know that the hon. member for Simcoe North has a keen interest in the youth of this country. Indeed, he has given an exhibition of it in his own personal life. And while I do not suppose this is the place for me to particularize, I merely make mention of that because it is generally known. And I am sure he would be the first to admit that perhaps there are few men in our country who, by their character and integrity, have given a better demonstration of their interest in the young people of our country than has the Minister of Labour. He is one of the most gallant gentlemen of this house.
I should say that this subject is one that is not new to this parliament. At the end of the first war the government of the day took an interest in the matter of technical education, and special grants in aid were provided by the central government to the provincial governments to assist in the kind of work contemplated by the resolution introduced by the Minister of Labour today.
The hon. member for Cape Breton South, while he acknowledged the value of the kind of thing that is contemplated by the resolution, made a strong plea to provide for many other individuals who did not have the


basic foundation which permits them to enter the vocational schools. He came over and talked to me about it while the Minister of Labour was speaking. I am sure the Minister of Labour is aware of the importance of this matter, but as I said to the hon. member for Cape Breton South, in replying to him privately, obviously there has to be a certain foundation if a student is going to take advantage even of vocational training, and it may be that the provincial governments, under whose jurisdiction this kind of thing comes, will be able to provide the foundation training which includes that which the hon. member for Cape Breton South said was lacking.
The hon. member for Simcoe North also spoke of his disappointment that the Minister of Labour had not indicated at the beginning of his remarks his desire to co-operate with the provinces and with other bodies in the country in trying to make this effort really a great one. It is a good thing that from time to time in the House of Commons all parties should be able to forget their differences, as on the whole we are doing today, and direct our attention to a really important problem that has to do with a vital section of the younger generation of our country. But the Minister of Labour has given evidence of his conviction as to the desire and the necessity of co-operating with provincial governments in this matter.
Two years ago he convened, along with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and myself as Minister of National Health and Welfare, a conference that was held in Toronto with all of the provincial governments and with those groups in the nation interested in rehabilitation, vocational guidance and vocational training. That conference was one of the historic occasions of its kind in this country, and to the Minister of Labour, along with the provincial governments who were generous in their co-operation, must go the credit for the leadership that was given on that occasion and for the work that has been done since. Out of that meeting came a national advisory committee that is truly representative of the federal, provincial and voluntary bodies of this country interested in providing rehabilitation and vocational training for the people of our country. It is well that we should take this occasion to emphasize this work.
The relation to this resolution of the work of the Department of National Health and Welfare is this. The emphasis now on rehabilitation is one of the great steps and advances in medical science. No longer are we taking for granted that crippled people or people mentally ill or suffering from other

kinds of illnesses should regard themselves as incapable of playing their full part in the development of their own careers or of making the contribution that they would normally want to make to the nation.
I remember that not very long ago, shortly before I became Minister of National Health and Welfare, people who for instance were suffering from cerebral palsy were looked upon as unfortunate individuals who must no longer expect to live as normal human beings. That is not so in this country today. It is generally recognized that while the sufferer from cerebral palsy may not be able to become completely free of that terrible and unfortunate handicap, yet it is no longer necessary to regard the victim of that disease as incapable of playing any useful part in the life of the community.
I invite hon. members to go to the cerebral palsy centre in Ottawa. That centre is made possible out of grants provided by the service clubs and by the federal government under the national health program. There they will see the work of rehabilitation that is going on. It is one of the most satisfying experiences a man can have. I invite hon. members to go there and see the way in which some of the money provided by the taxpayers to the government is being expended for that particular group alone.
These people who are being given this training in the cerebral palsy centre, for instance, fall in with the kind of work that the Minister of Labour has in mind after they receive the basic training at the hands of a doctor and a nurse and are rendered more fit to look after themselves or to carry on their daily lives in a more normal way.
One could mention the work of the paraplegic association, in the aftermath of world war II. One of the most amazing achievements, surely, in our time is the work of the paraplegic association. I mention here the work of John Counsell, the head of that body, one of the great men of our country, a lad from Hamilton who lost the use of his limbs at Dieppe during the war, and who has taken a very active part in the paraplegic association. The work of that agency has resulted not only in the rehabilitation of veterans, but in the use of the same facilities for the rehabilitation of civilians. That work is likewise being assisted under the national health program, and the individuals who receive the benefits of the medical training and treatment as the result of these grants then become fit subjects for the training provided for under the vocational training program now being sponsored by the Minister of Labour.
3,	1954	2631
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act
One could go on and mention all kinds of things that are now being done in the realm of rehabilitation prior to many of those individuals being able to take advantage of vocational training provided for by the federal and provincial governments. There is the rehabilitation that is going on in our tuberculosis sanatoria, in our mental health institutions and so forth. There you will find individuals who formerly were looked after by the community in terms of medical and hospital attention, but who after that were completely forgotten. Many of them were young people. That is not so now. I am sure that we shall strongly support the principle behind this resolution, recognizing at the same time that the government was wise in adding to the national health program last year additional grants to provide, in a co-operative way with the provinces, for the important program of rehabilitation which must be regarded as going hand in hand with vocational training.


Mr. Fairey:: Mr. Chairman, I now am conscious of the penalty of sitting away back in the corner of the house because I have been trying to catch your eye for a long time. I am bold enough to say that some of the questions that are being asked might not have been asked if I had had a chance to speak first. I say that because I have been associated with the program of vocational training in the province of British Columbia, and in the whole of the Dominion of Canada, for the last 17 years, and have been actively associated with this particular program.
It was one of my hopes that I would be permitted to trace the origin of this program from its very early days down to the present day, because I think this program demonstrates the great opportunity which has been embraced by this government and the provincial governments to co-operate with one another. I think under this system of vocational training which we have now-not perfect, it is true-we have demonstrated the ability to work together and to co-operate province with province and provinces with the federal government better than under any other measure we have been able to suggest, except perhaps the program under the Department of National Health and Welfare.
The act which we are proposing to amend is one of the shorter acts on our statute books and I have no doubt that the amending bill will be short and contain only a few clauses. I rather suspect that because of its brevity it may be considered as of not too great importance. To my mind it is one of the most forward-looking pieces of legislation we shall have before us this session.
2632	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act
May I take a tew minutes to trace the origin of the vocational training program in Canada. Because of its modest beginnings and eventual importance it demonstrates the wisdom of starting with something very simple and being sure where you are going and building step by step to something worth while. It is a program that demands the partnership of the provinces as between themselves and the provinces with the federal government. The success of the many projects which have been operating under this program is, I think, testimony not only to the wisdom of those responsible for its early days but to the fact that ways can be found to solve any problem when the pressure of outside events brings together people of common aims and good will.
Because I am sure, more sure today than ever before, that some hon. members are only vaguely aware of the provisions of the vocational training act and what has been done under it, I propose, at the risk of being somewhat garrulous, to trace the growth of the operations under the present act from their early beginnings until the present day.
I hope in doing so to show that in the field of vocational training, as in many other fields, the policy of the government has been one of wise caution but firm decision once the right road ahead was clear.
Federal participation in education has always been a subject to be approached with great caution, but here we have a form of federal aid to education, as one hon. member has mentioned already. It is an example of the sensible approach. We find that it has resulted in the operation of many successful undertakings. Vocational training began during the depression years at the time when this government had funds allotted for what we called unemployment relief.
Much has been said about the hungry thirties, but it was during those days that methods were adopted to alleviate, in some small measure at any rate, the plight of young men and women who were without employment. Those of us who are old enough will remember that there were thousands of the youth of this country who had left school, who had no jobs, who had no opportunity for training, and who were just walking the streets. It was in those days, as part of the relief procedures, that the provinces and the dominion government-I am sorry if I inadvertently use the word "dominion" but we like it in British Columbia anyway; I may lapse into its use once in a while-at any rate the federal government made money available in co-operation with the provinces for some kind of training which would fit


the young people of those days for jobs which they hoped would eventuate sometime in the future.
Therefore classes were started, not only in the cities but in the rural areas, for young men and women between the ages of 16 and 25 years, I believe it was, which age limit was later extended to 30 years. Those young people received training in those classes and eventually found work. The employment services of Canada, together with many of the officials who were engaged on the program, co-operated in their placement. Because of their efforts we were able to alleviate to some degree the fear that we were training people for jobs that did not exist. That certainly was true for a time. Nevertheless as the program developed the worth of it became known, places were found and a great deal of good was done.
In those days we saw the beginnings of federal participation in physical health. We have an organization in British Columbia known as the PRO-REC, and it was in the days of the hungry thirties that the program of physical fitness had its beginning. I do not think I mentioned that, during those days, costs were shared on a 50-50 basis.
Because of the success-mind you, I am speaking now of 1938-of this program, this parliament decided to pass the Youth Training Act of 1939 under which the federal government authorized the continuation of those classes and the extension of the program. I am going to keep my remarks as short as I can, but I do want to say that under the Youth Training Act we were able to continue the program which had been established and to provide for other things as the need arose.
It is true that at that time war loomed its ugly head. Because we had these classes established in the provincial technical and vocational schools, as well as in rented quarters; because we had trained staffs of instructors it was possible with that foundation to build what eventually became known as the war emergency training program. We were able to carry on that program under the Youth Training Act with such amendments as were necessary under the War Measures Act. Mr. Chairman, I have sketched somewhat briefly the beginnings of what we are talking about today.
It is not my intention to bolster my story with statistics, as these can be found in the many reports of the Department of Labour dealing with vocational training, particularly in the Labour Gazette, which, as hon. members know, is published monthly. However, it may be interesting to know that from

April, 1940, to the end of 1944, upwards of 360,000 men and women were trained for the navy, army, air force and war industry at a total cost to the federal government of $21 million. The growth from those modest beginnings which I have attempted to show continued, and in 1942 the act we are now proposing to amend, the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act, was passed.
May I go back just for a moment to say that because we had started in such a modest way and were gradually extending over a wide field, the federal authorities thought it wise to call together those in charge of the program to Ottawa at least twice a year for consultation. It was out of that kind of unofficial advisory body that authority was given to form the advisory council which now exists under the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act.
In 1942, therefore, because of the changing nature of the work, it was thought wise to introduce the act known as the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act. It was thought desirable to co-ordinate the various activities then being carried on, to provide for the continuance of those which were desirable and to drop those no longer necessary.
I am sorry the hon. member for Cape Breton South is not at present in his seat, because I wanted to congratulate him for putting his finger, with his usual foresight, on the two great needs. Provincial departments of education, speaking on behalf of their governments, have always maintained that the federal government encouraged the provinces to build technical schools, as they did under the vocational education act of 1931, and after these schools had been built, with federal assistance, the provinces were left to carry on their operation. I believe we all know that vocational or technical schools, because of equipment requirements, usually have much smaller classes but higher paid staffs. At any rate, they are more expensive schools to operate, yet no money was allocated from federal funds to assist in the operation of these schools once they were built.
However, that was remedied by the passing of the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act, because under that act provision was made, not only for funds for capital expenditure, but also funds on an annual basis to assist in the operation of these schools. Perhaps the hon. member for Cape Breton South is not aware of that provision under the present act. The vocational training act provides for both these needs, modestly it is true, but the door is ajar; and there are those
3,	1954	2633
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act of us still around who are ready to give it a vigorous shove in order to push it wide open, if we get the chance.
By the end of the war there were a number of separate agreements between the federal authorities and the various provinces, and these covered a variety of activities by various definite schedules, providing for every class and age group of citizens. The vocational schools assistance agreement, to which the minister already referred, provided for capital and operational grants for a period, I believe, of ten years, The youth training agreement, already mentioned, was for unemployed youths who had never been employed and who were in that age group which needed some form of training in order to assist them to secure employment. Under the urban and rural occupational training, provision was made for those who had been employed, were out of a job, and who required training, or retraining, to fit them for a different type of job. Then we had training for war industries and for the armed services and the great rehabilitation program for veterans of the second world war, all of which were carried out under the same authority in co-operation with and at the request of the Department of Veterans Affairs. There was another great program, Mr. Chairman, on which I could talk for hours. We called it preuniversity training for veterans of the second world war. An hon. member opposite mentioned the fact that sometimes the veteran who had come back had less academic training than he could have had because, due to the war, he was prevented from going on with further education. That was certainly true with many of the veterans who, had there not been a war, probably would have gone to university.
The officials of the Department of Veterans Affairs, for whom I have the greatest admiration because of what they did for the veterans of the last war, recognized that situation. They recognized that there were many men and women who had enlisted in the services who would have gone to university but who unfortunately were not properly prepared for it. Because of that fact, schools were established all over the country for the purpose of providing pre-university training; and I am sure you would be amazed, Mr. Chairman, to learn the number of people we were able to bring up to university entrance standards, young men and women with no previous education beyond grade 10. Further than that, they did better work in the university than students from the regular schools. That was probably because we
2634	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act gave them excellent training, and because they were mature and interested in their work. It was an excellent program.
There was also the apprentice training program and the student aid program. I have often heard the question asked in this house and outside as to why we do not provide for students who should go to university but who cannot afford to do so. We do provide that opportunity, and have been doing so since 1939.
Before I develop that, permit me to recite all these activities to show how comprehensive the program has become. When brought together these programs provide this pattern. There was federal aid for education at the secondary school level and capital expenditure for the operation of schools run by provincial authorities. There were classes for youngsters who had left school but who had no previous training at all. There were classes for those who had been employed but were out of work and wanted to change their jobs. There were classes for veterans and for older people, and correspondence classes for those in remote areas. The council, which has already been referred to, considered all these things and made recommendations. We therefore had a comprehensive program brought together under the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act, paid for in most cases on a 50-50 basis with the provinces, except for those portions which dealt with war services or training for members of the armed forces.
May I say for the benefit of the hon. member for Simcoe North that we did have classes for young veterans who lacked academic training, which provided training similar to the type we gave at the end of the war to veterans who wished to go to university and which I described previously as preuniversity training. There are classes operating today for young soldiers who lack the required academic standards.
Federal expenditures covering all these programs since their inception in 1939-and I took the trouble to check this figure- amount at the present time to a little short of $90 million.
Reverting to the student aid program which is carried on in co-operation with the provinces. I might point out that this has been in operation since 1939. If I quote figures from my own province of British Columbia it is only because I happen to know them better than the figures relating to other provinces, though I do know that these other provinces have similar programs. From a very modest beginning in 1939, when the province and the federal authorities each contributed $2,550 or a total of $5,100, the


scheme has grown until today, and for some years past, each government has made available $30,000 per year. To that amount the local government in British Columbia adds another $50,000 for loans, so that we have a total of a little more than $110,000 available every year to assist needy students of intellectual capacity to go to university.
It is interesting, Mr. Chairman, and very heartening to learn that in the province of British Columbia alone, regardless of the others, 5,765 young men and women have been assisted in obtaining further education. At the present moment there are 627 young British Columbians attending university because of assistance provided under this fund. I do not know the figures for the present year for the whole country but for last year, the academic year 1952-53, there were 4,663 students attending the universities of Canada under this fund, and of those some 1,098 were women.
All the activities which I have described were sponsored and directed by the training branch of the Department of Labour, and have been recommended to the ministry by an advisory council. I know it is understood that, because of changing conditions, modifications in the composition of the council itself are required. I should like to discuss that matter for a moment. This advisory council grew out of a need. In the early days we had this unofficial council-it was not really unofficial, but it was gathered together without any statutory provision-to discuss these matters. We met with the director of training. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, that I keep slipping in a "we" once in a while, but I happened to be one of them. It was necessary then for us to meet to advise the minister on those matters which we thought wise, to recommend that the scheme be enlarged, and to assess the need for additional programs.
I do not know whether it is permissible in this chamber to pay tribute to an official by name, but 1 should like to place on record the admiration of all who knew him for the late Mr. R. F. Thompson, who was director of training in the Department of Labour. It was he who sparked the program and directed it from its early days until he died, quite recently. It was because of his industry and his ability to secure the cooperation of all manner of people throughout this country that we have such a measure on the statute books today.
On this council I have mentioned it was originally intended to have representatives in equal number of labour and industry. We have had representatives of labour, industry, womens' organizations, agriculture, veterans

organizations and education. Not all provinces were officially represented. As a matter of fact, there were only three representatives of education.
I do not know the details of the amending bill, but the resolution we are discussing leads me to suppose that the purpose of increasing the number of the council is so that a representative of all ten provinces may find a place on it. The present bill provides for a chairman and 16 members. I know the resolution calls for an increase in the number, and I think that is why. Where the provinces are co-operating, as they are, willingly and anxiously, I think it is only right that they should have an official place on the council, and I believe that is what the minister has in mind.
There is one last subject that I wish to mention. I notice that the Minister of National Health and Welfare spoke very feelingly, as he always does, about this question of rehabilitation of the physically handicapped. It is one of the newer programs that have been operating under this act. It has to do with the training or retraining of those suffering physical handicaps. Much was learned over all these years from what has been done by the Department of Veterans Affairs, from the programs carried out in several of the provinces under the various workmen's compensation acts, and from the program we had ourselves, because we trained handicapped persons too. Those successful experiences have encouraged everybody connected with this program to the point of enthusiasm, I might say, as to the possibility of doing a great and noble work.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare has announced a measure for the relief of those totally disabled. I am hopeful that this amending bill will contain provision for adequate funds and means for an all-out attack on a problem which must touch the emotions of all hon. members as well as commend itself to us all as a sound economic measure.
When I spoke on the address in reply to the speech from the throne I mentioned this subject and pointed out that men and women suffering a physical handicap can and should be trained for occupations they are capable of performing. There is a tremendous waste of talent when we allow such persons to swell the ranks of the unemployed. The last thing they want is sympathy, although that we must give in full measure. The best kind of sympathy is the opportunity to become selfsupporting and self-respecting. This can be done. It has been done and it is now being done. What is needed now is authority to make it a major undertaking.
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act
I am convinced, Mr. Chairman, that hon. members realize that it is not only the right thing but the wise thing to do. This act will make it possible to engage the resourcefulness of those now interested in the medical and physical rehabilitation of those who suffer a handicap from whatever cause. Mention was made of voluntary agencies.
I think it was the hon. member for Hamilton West who asked whether the training would be done in schools or in industry or through the various agencies. The minister mentioned the paraplegic association, the cerebral palsy association, and so on. It is the intention- in fact it is being done now-to co-ordinate the efforts of those agencies and give the training wherever it can best be done.
I conclude by saying that throughout this country there are numerous organizations actively concerned with this problem I have just mentioned. They are all anxious to get going once we have a co-ordinator. They want the activities in these matters brought together. They want somebody to head it; they are going to get it under this act. They are seized with enthusiasm about what can be done. They await only some central authority to co-ordinate their services in a common effort. The provinces are willing. This measure, which authorizes the federal government and particularly the Department of Labour to be that co-ordinating agency, is one which, I suggest, will commend itself to all hon. members.


Mr. Knowles:: Mr. Chairman, as my colleagues the hon. member for Cape Breton South and the hon. member for Saskatoon have already pointed out, we welcome the introduction of this resolution. I imagine it would be fair to say that ministers generally, when they introduce matters which they must pilot through the house, like to get them through as rapidly as possible; but this afternoon I believe the Minister of Labour is really quite pleased that a fair amount of time is being spent on this important piece of legislation.
We all listened with considerable interest to the highly informative speech which has just been made by the hon. member for Victoria (B.C.) who in his former capacity as deputy minister of education in one of our provinces had considerable to do with technical education. In passing may I say that we in the province of Manitoba appreciate the assistance that has come our way under this program. We are particularly pleased with and proud of our technical vocational school in the city of Winnipeg.
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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act
As my colleague the hon. member for Saskatoon has pointed out, we are interested in all possible education for the young people of this country, and we are indeed pleased to see this form of federal assistance to education. No one suggests that it interferes in any way with the complete jurisdiction over education which is accorded to the provinces by section 92 of the British North America Act. Rather the financial assistance provided in this way is for the benefit of the country as a whole. We hope to see that principle extended to still other areas of education.
However, Mr. Chairman, since my colleagues and the members of other parties have spoken on those aspects of the matter I shall not take further time on them. Rather I wanted to say a few words concerning the aspect of this legislation which was touched upon by the Minister of National Health and Welfare, who referred to the fact that the resolution states that the measure to be introduced will include authority to enter into agreements with the provinces to grant assistance for the rehabilitation training of disabled persons.
I am sure we all share the sentiments expressed by the minister this afternoon when he pointed out that society has progressed to the point, and medical science has served us to the point, where disabled people no longer have to be regarded as useless to society or to themselves. There still are people who suffer very great misfortunes and disabilities, but the number of people who can lead happy and useful lives, despite physical disabilities of one kind and another, is steadily increasing due in part to the progress of medical science and in part to the attitude of society in accepting the responsibility to provide funds to help such people.
Now, Mr. Chairman, the main point I want to make in connection with this is my very strong feeling that there must be the closest co-operation between the Minister of Labour and the Minister of National Health and Welfare in connection with the rehabilitation program and pensions to disabled persons. I know the immediate answer of those two ministers will be that they co-operate all the time. What I am asking for now is something more than just co-operation in the sense that they get together personally. I feel that these two pieces of legislation, the one before us now in the name of the Minister of Labour and the one the Minister of National Health and Welfare will be bringing in shortly, must be dovetailed together. From what we have before us now and from the sketchy information we have about the other legislation, my fear is that our disabled people are going to be put into one category or the other. There 

are going to be those for whom rehabilitation training will be useful and they will get that, whereas others will be regarded as totally disabled and they will get the disability pension provided they meet the means test.
As I say, the information we have had with respect to the legislation that is yet to come is sketchy, but it has been suggested that the pensions to be provided under that legislation will be only for those who are totally and permanently disabled. I do not think it should be that way. I feel the very fact that the Minister of Labour is now introducing a provision for a rehabilitation program calls for dealing with these two matters together. In my view there are people who are capable of taking a certain amount of rehabilitation training which means that they are not permanently disabled; but in order to take that training and get a start, they will need some financial assistance. On the other hand the fact that the'y are not permanently disabled may bar them from getting the pension. I hope that the hard and fast line which I see looming up will not be drawn, but that there will be a common sense and a humanitarian approach to this whole problem.
It is a great venture upon which we are launching, in that we are proposing to spend public money to try and do something worthwhile for disabled persons. This is a good move. Let us not scuttle the program by this hard and fast line I fear may be drawn. Let us admit that there will be some people for whom the only thing we can do is provide pensions. If that is the case, let us do that and let us make these pensions decent and adequate. There will be other persons who do not need pensions at the moment, but who do need rehabilitation training. Let us see that they get the kind of rehabilitation training that will be useful to them. Let us not forget that there will be a third group who are neither wholly in one category nor wholly in the other. I hope these people will not be shifted from one category to the other, and end up getting nothing at all. They need rehabilitation training, and financial assistance while they are taking that training.
As I say, I plead not only for close cooperation between the two ministers concerned, but co-operation between them and the Minister of Veterans Affairs as well. I plead for the legislation to be dovetailed together in such a way that it will provide the utmost benefit to our disabled persons, who need and deserve everything we can do for them.


Mr. Shaw:: When one agrees with a measure it seems hardly necessary for him to indulge in extended debate in order to indicate his

position. All those sitting with me agree wholeheartedly with the purpose of this resolution. We have spoken before when measures designed to amend the act have been before us.
It is noted in the resolution that it is deemed advisable to amend the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act to meet the requirements, first of defence, and second, other purposes. We feel, of course, that at a time like this, when defence is so essential, it is most important that we extend the act in such a way as to fully utilize the services of the largest possible number of Canadians.
However, if there were no need for defence we would still say that an act of this kind would be wholly necessary, and that every effort should be made by the federal government, working in co-operation with the provincial governments, to expand the program in its application to disabled persons. I agree that a step forward was taken when it was proposed that pensions would be paid to certain of our disabled people. I also agree fully with those who have asserted that there is something just as important, probably even more important, and that is providing training for those who are capable of being trained even though they are disabled. I have talked with a number of these people. They ask not for charity, although they realize there are certain of their numbers who are totally disabled or cannot be trained. At the same time they have stressed the fact that the disabled who can take advantage of the training want the training.
We certainly support the measure, particularly as it relates to the training of disabled persons. There were a number of things which I intended to say concerning the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act, but I have thought it over and I believe it would be more appropriate for me to say those things when we are dealing with the estimates relating to vocational training. I simply say to the minister that we support the resolution. We feel that it will perform a most useful function for our Canadian people and for Canada.


Mr. Dinsdale:: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the need for broader facilities for vocational training in Canada is one of the great educational needs of our time. We have been passing through a technological revolution which has resulted in a great demand for trained technicians to man the machines of our mechanized civilization. Notwithstanding that fact, our high schools still continue to stress the straight academic program and
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act preparation for the professions rather than preparation for the technical pursuits that are so necessary today.
As I have listened to the discussion thus far I have come to the conclusion that the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act recognizes this need. I am glad I did not speak before the hon. member for Victoria, British Columbia, because I feel he has made an excellent and most enlightening contribution to the debate. I was keenly interested in the survey he made of the history of this particular legislation.
Notwithstanding the fact that there have been measures promoting vocational training in Canada now for a considerable number of years, and that this act has been in effect since 1942, as I have already intimated there is still a great need for the expansion of vocational training facilities. I believe the major drawback in meeting this need for vocational training arises from the bugbear of all education today, the financial problem.
As I look at the act it seems to me that the carrying out of its various measures must depend upon provincial initiative. Unfortunately, as all hon. members are aware, our provinces are already burdened with education costs. Therefore they are reluctant to take any action that would increase in any way their financial obligations in the matter of education. So in the final analysis the responsibility for action falls back upon the municipalities.
During the resolution stage of the discussion, for my own information, I would like to ask the minister one or two questions concerning which he might be able to enlighten me. Would there be financial assistance for agricultural schools which operate mainly for rural young people who have not had the advantage of formal high school education? I give as an example an agricultural school that provides training in the basic skills required for farming, a general practical course in farming operations for farm boys, and for the farm girls a basic training in home economics or the skills required for home-making. It seems to me that schedule "O" might provide for financial assistance to a program of this kind, and I was wondering if that interpretation would be correct.
Another query that comes to mind is this. Is financial assistance under this act possible for a large school area program, which endeavours to meet the demand for a broadened curriculum, and also the necessity for providing adequate facilities to meet the new
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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act demands in educational circles today? The large school area program has not been too successful to date in my own province. As a matter of fact we have established only one area, chiefly because the various communities are suspicious that a broadening of educational facilities in this way would entail large increases in the costs of education. I would hope that a program of this kind, where there is an attempt to introduce training in technical skills, in farm skills and in commercial lines, as well as giving the regular basic collegiate program, should come in for assistance under this act. Certainly it might encourage a more rapid acceptance of this new idea in educational circles.
I wonder, too, if there is any provision in the act for vocational guidance. When we begin to specialize in the field of education the problem immediately arises as to the necessity for offering special counsel and advice to our young people in the matter of selecting their areas of interest. The vocational guidance movement has emerged in Canada since 1930 to meet this need. I have looked through recent reports concerning the administration of the act, and I cannot see any specific reference to provision being made for financial assistance in the carrying on of a vocational guidance program. Perhaps the minister could give us some information on that point.
I see a possible solution in the very title of the act for some of the difficulties I have outlined. The act is known as the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act, and the word "co-ordination" suggests to me one method of broadening the scope of this particular legislation. I note in the schedule of payments that for vocational training programs covering members of the armed forces and war veterans the federal government provides support to the extent of 100 per cent, whereas in the training of disabled persons and young people between the ages of 16 and 30, with particular reference in schedule "O" to the training of foremen, supervisors and the like, the support is either 75 per cent or 50 per cent.
We know that in military matters considerations of cost are never involved. It seems to me some attempt might be made to bring about a closer integration of the technical training required to meet the demands of a technological civilization as well as the technical training required to meet the demands of our defence program. While these activities parallel one another to some


extent, they do tend to have separate treatment. Independent facilities are established which obviously would increase considerably the expenditures involved.
In the world of today the areas of civilian and military activities seem to be almost indivisible, because in a time of trouble, in a time of war, everyone would be caught up in the demands of defence. It should be in our best interests to explore every possible avenue whereby we might meet the growing demand for a larger number of people with training in the technical skills. Preparedness is the best defence in the long run, and I hope this suggestion might be given attention as amendments to the act are brought in when we finally have the bill before us.
One final word, Mr. Chairman. There would appear to be a need for some publicity on behalf of the activities under this act. I note that in the report for 1952 there are regional directors in every province, with the exception of British Columbia, Manitoba and Newfoundland. The maritime provinces are particularly well represented from the standpoint of regional directors. I would imagine that a regional director is largely responsible for applying the terms of the act to the situation as he finds it in his particular province. It might be that if we had a wider representation-for example, if there were regional directors in the other provinces which do not have such persons at the present time-these people would provide the necessary leadership in taking advantage of all the measures under the act and applying them to the situation they find in their particular provinces. There are provisions in the act, I am sure, that even those in educational circles are not aware of, provisions that would assist in a real way in meeting the demands for vocational training.
May I close by saying a few words with regard to the section dealing with bursaries for student aid. I note that this provision was established in 1939. It makes possible payment of up to $400, I believe, in the case of deserving students desiring to go on to some phase of university training. I wonder whether any consideration has been given to the changed cost situation obtaining today as compared with that existing in 1939. A bursary of $400 does not go very far today in meeting the cost of a university education. In fact in some universities it would hardly cover the tuition fees. That thought occurred to me as I read through the latest report on the administration of this act.
Again, I feel that there is a need for wider publicity concerning opportunities provided under this schedule. If we had a full-time

regional director, a regional representative in the province of Manitoba, many more students might be encouraged to take advantage of the provisions of this legislation.


Mr. Hosking:: Mr. Chairman, I want to make just a few remarks on this resolution. I should like to read the part in which I am interested:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act to meet present-day requirements for defence and other purposes.
I like the way it is worded, "to meet present-day requirements for defence and other purposes". Everyone knows that years ago skilled mechanics spent long years of their lives, at very little pay, learning their trade. Present-day requirements are much different. First, we are short of labour, or we have been for the past number of years. Ever since 1939 we have been short of labour, and it has been necessary to use these men who have learned their skills in productive work in a manner that was not conceived years ago when we had the apprenticeship system in operation. Today we have learned that students, by adapting themselves properly in the proper environment, can become productive much more rapidly than they could under the old apprenticeship system. Thus I am glad to see the government and our own Minister of Labour introducing a resolution to amend the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act to meet present-day requirements for defence and other purposes.
The most important responsibility of any government is to provide the opportunity for the citizens of that country to have employment. Everyone has seen in the past number of years that as long as there is full employment there are good times. That is the main requirement for the success and progress of a country. Each person in the country who has been trained in one of our vocational training schools generally provides jobs for three or four helpers who may not be as skilled as he is.
I would refer to the splendid work that our vocational schools have done in turning out electricians, carpenters, automobile mechanics, diesel engine mechanics and many others in the past. Today the need for vocational training is changing. When we look around this room, for instance, and notice the number of microphones and loudspeakers that are present, we can see that it requires men with the proper vocational training to maintain this equipment. Everyone knows that unless there are the proper courses available it is very difficult for men to learn the job of maintaining this equipment.
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act
We have television, and we have the new jet engines. The developments in atomic energy have been tremendous. In all these fields the requirements for skilled mechanics to produce, maintain and keep in operation all these new pieces of apparatus are staggering. Today it is the responsibility of this government to go into fields which, under the British North America Act, could well be considered none of their business, so that we may have at the disposal of this nation men with the technical knowledge required to keep us in fair competition, both in business and in defence, with other nations.
We have heard many times that the Russians have outstripped us in their education of scientific men. If we had not seen during the Korean conflict how they have devised machines which have bettered our own equipment, which we thought was the best in the world, we might not have been inclined to go along with that belief. But after having had a demonstration of their equipment it is easy to believe that perhaps they have outstripped us in the production of scientists and engineers.
If that is true the academic side of our educational system must be improved. Although education is the responsibility of the municipality and therefore comes under the jurisdiction of the province, when it becomes a national issue as to whether we have enough scientists and engineers, then it becomes the problem of the dominion government. At the last session we passed legislation to help increase the number of scientists and engineers to produce the equipment necessary to be competitive in an industrial way and also for defence purposes. Now we must have the vocationally trained men, men with trades ability, to maintain the equipment put into the hands of the people of our country by the scientists and engineers.
Thus it is my contention that we should give favourable consideration to this resolution to amend the Vocational Training Coordination Act in order to meet present-day requirements for defence and other purposes. I should like to hear the minister, some time before this bill is completed, state just what proportion the dominion government is prepared to pay in connection with the financing of the construction of vocational schools. The need in some localities is considerable.
I know the vocational school in my riding is out of date. It is equipped to perform the services I mentioned at the beginning of my speech. It does a good job of training carpenters, bricklayers, machinists and mechanics, but it is not in position to turn out
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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act men competent to deal with the new electronic problems that lace this nation today. This is one of the growing needs in many parts of the country, and certainly in my own riding we need a new vocational school adequate and up to date to handle the problems that face the young Canadians in that area.
I am told that this Liberal government is prepared to match donations with the provincial governments on projects of this kind, but I should like to have the Minister of Labour state that this is the dominion government's policy with regard to assisting municipalities in their efforts to build these schools. The demand for trained men to protect the country, to fulfil the requirements of the armed services, and to make this country competitive with other countries in the markets of the world, is such that it becomes a dominion responsibility to assist those people who pay taxes locally. I should like to hear just what the dominion government proposes to do.


Mr. Hodgson:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few remarks in connection with this resolution. The Minister of National Health and Welfare referred to the rehabilitation centre outside Ottawa. This centre has done a great work. I know something of what it has done since its inauguration many years ago. That centre was established by the lumbermen's safety association of the province of Ontario for the rehabilitation of maimed and disabled lumberjacks, and it did great work in that respect. Then the war came along and the dominion government- I make no apology for using the word "dominion"-needed something of this sort. It was taken over and made larger, bigger and better in every way. It has done great work over the years in rehabilitation, but I think they could have gone further in connection with vocational training. They have not done very much along that line, and there is room for improvement. I hope that there will be a change in that connection.
The resolution reads in part:
-for defence and other purposes, including authority to enter into agreements with the provinces to grant assistance for rehabilitation training of disabled persons-
I do not think the resolution goes far enough, although I am glad the dominion government is ready to go along with the provinces in connection with recreational and vocational training. Today the province of Ontario will make a grant of $5,000 toward the erection of a building for recreational and vocational training, and I do not know why the dominion government should not make a similar grant. I should like to hear


from the minister in that respect. They should at least give dollar for dollar with the provinces in this respect.
We have a new school in our town, but it finds itself cramped in the carrying on of recreational and vocational training. We tried to carry on this program even before we had the new school but found it financially impossible to continue to employ a recreational director. We had to dispense with him a year or two ago. If the department would come along and make a grant in aid for recreational and vocational training that program could be continued in that little town, I am sure it would be appreciated, and I think the government should go that far. This bill does not say how far the government will go, but probably the minister will tell us when he comes to answer.
A great need in the country today is for nurses. If a bomb were dropped today in Ottawa or in any part of Canada the first people needed would be nurses. They are the first people needed to help the maimed, the sick and the dying. They have been a great asset to Canada in the past and I know they will be in the future. Many young women who would become good nurses find it financially impossible to undertake the training. I think the department could go a little further with this bill and agree to pay $10 a week to every girl in Canada who would take up nursing training.
Some hon. member referred to the need of additional training for nurses. Certain nurses might require some extra training. Those nurses who go into the far north on government projects or to Red Cross outposts probably should have some extra training along medical lines, because in many cases they are a great many miles from a doctor. I think the department should go so far as to say that any young girl who was willing to sign up for three or five years to go to distant places like this would have her extra training paid for the one year or whatever time it might take to qualify such a girl for the position. We are short of nurses in Canada today even without an emergency. We could use at least 25 per cent more nurses in Canada. Something must be done to encourage young girls to take up this work.
Then I spoke of rehabilitation grants to schools. This would prove a great asset to our country and to our young people. Someone said that our jails and institutions are completely full. I do not believe our country is as bad as that. I believe that we are probably better than average compared with other countries in that respect. However, we are not good enough. Our young people should

be better; and if they were given the opportunity of obtaining training such as this legislation starts out to provide, and if it would go a little further than is mentioned in this resolution, then I believe we would not only all have a better place in which to live, but the young people of Canada could be improved and at the same time assist in the future development of Canada.


Mr. Macdonnell:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add just one word. I have listened with respect to everything said in the house this afternoon. I am delighted to hear of the good work being done, and I approve wholeheartedly of projects for the extension of such work. However, none of us in this house believe that life consists wholly in things which come from vocational training, I mean things which are made by the teaching of various skills. We know that life does not consist wholly of these things, and I hope with these young people it will be possible in the course of the development of these skills also to introduce them to some of the thoughts of the great and good people who have made our civilization what it is.
It seems to me it would be a thousand pities if in the course of acquiring skills no attempt was made or time provided to turn their minds to these other things. I have just one practical suggestion to make and it is this. I believe there is no subject comparable to biography in developing in one's mind an appreciation of these things, and it seems to me there could be no better way of accomplishing that than by providing for that study perhaps in the sphere in which these young people are being trained, so their minds may be turned toward benefiting from the thoughts of people who have excelled in that particular sphere and who also had a broad view of life and realized that it did not consist wholly of the things that we touch, taste and handle.


Mr. Green:: Mr. Chairman, before the minister answers I would like to place two or three questions before him. Incidentally, it is quite obvious from this debate that everyone in this house approves of this vocational training scheme. I believe it has been of great advantage to Canada, and it is perhaps one of the finest illustrations of co-operation between the federal and provincial governments.
The first question I would like to ask has to do with merchant seamen. I notice in the estimates for the present fiscal year that the administration item covering vocational training contains these words, "For the training of personnel for the merchant marine."
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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act That would appear to cover only those young men who are going into the merchant marine. But as the minister knows the actual situation is that young men are being forced out of the merchant marine, and Canada is disposing of her ships. The problem rather is to rehabilitate the seamen who are in that position. I would ask the minister to explain whether this scheme will be wide enough to give these men who are being put on the beach training for some other occupation.
The resolution refers to training for the defence forces in these words, "to meet present-day requirements for defence." I would be grateful if the minister would explain what changes are to be made in the training given to the men and I presume the women who are in the defence forces.
When the minister was introducing this resolution he mentioned that a change was to be made in the act to provide for substitution in the personnel of the advisory council. Under the act as it now stands the governor in council appoints the chairman and 16 members. I hope the minister will tell the committee what method is to be used for appointing substitutes. The plan he announced appears to go a long way. The cabinet appoints certain individuals and someone is to have the authority to name someone else to act in their places. I should like to know whether appointments will be made and substitutes appointed by the cabinet, or whether the provinces are to appoint them, or whether a person who has been appointed by the cabinet is to be given the right to name his own substitute. It seems to me to be going very far indeed to make provision for substitutions of that kind when a council is set up pursuant to the provisions of a federal act.
Finally, I was somewhat surprised to hear the statement that there is a shortage of vocational training schools. I hope that shortage is not as bad as some hon. members have indicated. I know in my own city of Vancouver we have a first-class modern vocational training school which, I believe, is doing a splendid job. I would like the minister to explain just how serious this shortage of vocational training schools is at the present time, and what steps the dominion proposes to take to overcome that shortage.


The Chairman:: Shall the resolution carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Howard Charles Green: Could I have an answer?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to delay my own resolution but I believe the least I can do, as an expression of
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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act appreciation for the very excellent and instructive suggestions that have come from all corners of the house this afternoon, is to cover some of the more substantial questions asked during the debate. If hon. members do not find me answering questions in detail I can assure them that I shall take the time to do so when this bill is referred to the standing committee on industrial relations. At a later date I propose to move that this bill be referred to that committee.
The hon. member for Hamilton West asked if I would state how disabled persons will be trained. I believe that was the general nature of the question. Let me state at once the reason the rehabilitation of disabled persons appears in this bill. As hon. members know, during the past few years we have been training disabled persons under existing schedules in the federal-provincial training agreements. The reason special authority is being asked in this legislation is so that we will be able to make, in conjunction with the provinces, special arrangements with regard to the disabled.
My colleague the Minister of National Health and Welfare this afternoon gave a hint of the rehabilitation program which is now being carried out in conjunction with the provinces. He referred to that portion of it devoted to medical rehabilitation which he will be bringing forward again this year. As he pointed out, as soon as the medical teams have done what they can to repair disabled persons and the doctors and psychologists have completed their technical work and provided all assistance that can be given under the medical banner, then the vocational training people will be standing by ready to take the disabled person over with a full knowledge of what has happened medically. They will then, where needed, get vocational training under provincial jurisdiction, with part of the cost being borne by the federal government.
Right there I think I could give the answer to a part of the question asked by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. Both at the medical phase of rehabilitation and then when we come into the second of the three phases-they are the medical, the training and the placement-we realize that there will be a need for special treatment of these disabled people, something which was not necessary for fit people who came in under well classified schedules. Hence we are visualizing the possibility, in conjunction with the provinces, where needed, of taking care of individual financial needs to make it possible for the disabled person to go and


get the training. If that disabled person has special financial responsibilities while the training is being given, the program is so planned as to make it possible to help take care of that matter until the person has been able to gain the skill that can help to make him self-supporting, then the placement officials of the national employment service- who will then be even more highly skilled, I hope, than they are now-will take him over and so fit him into a job in industry on the basis of his value to industry and not in any sense on the basis of pity. These people, when they are trained-if they are properly trained-and their capacities are sharpened up, will be able to serve in industry just as well and just as valuably as do the able-bodied people at their sides.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister permit a question on that point?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can he tell us under which legislation financial assistance of that kind might be forthcoming?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I did not get the hon. member's question.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will financial assistance of that kind be given under the legislation now before us or by virtue of the legislation under the Department of National Health and Welfare?


Milton Fowler Gregg: The financial requirements for medical rehabilitation up to the point where the disabled person comes over for vocational training will come in the estimates of my colleague the Minister of National Health and Welfare. As to the needs for the training- our federal portion of it-in the vocational training schools, that appears in my estimates, under vocational training, this year.
Then further to answer the question asked by the hon. member for Hamilton West as to where the training will be done. It will be done wherever that training can be obtained, as was so well said by the hon. member for Victoria (B.C.). It may be a special kind of training on the job. There may be the necessity of placing the disabled person somewhere under special instructions. For this group, and for this group only, I will say to the hon. member for Cape Breton South that we will not be averse to seeing to it that the disabled person gets some academic training if that is necessary to be fitted for a skill.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Will the minister permit a question?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: Suppose the person is not capable of assimilating academic training; what then?


Milton Fowler Gregg: What does the hon. member mean?


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I mean that because of age or because of having been out of school for a number of years it might be a slow and tedious process. Can they not be trained in some vocation without the necessity for taking further academic training?


Milton Fowler Gregg: What I meant was that the academic training would not be an end in itself. It would be given only if a bit of additional academic training would enable that disabled person better to enter into the job for which he or she is most fitted or could be made most fitted.


Ellen Louks Fairclough: I understand.


Milton Fowler Gregg: To come to the remarks made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South,
I thought he was being a little bit more pessimistic this afternoon than he usually is. He is usually quite optimistic. He rather skirted around the edge of the responsibilities of the federal and the provincial governments in the field of training. If I understood him properly, I think he was suggesting that the federal government go farther back and assist in early academic education. It would appear to me that the great province of Nova Scotia, with its pride in its educational system, would look with a little bit of suspicion or askance if the Minister of Labour were to go back as far as is suggested by the hon. member in the academic training of the young people of that province; and what I say with regard to Nova Scotia I am sure would apply to a greater or lesser extent to all the other nine provinces.
But I agree with the hon. member to this extent. There is a very important point at which the rough edges can still be ground off, where the young person who does not intend to go on for advanced academic training can be advised properly, through interviews and skilled guidance, as to the vocation he should follow in life. Whether that should be done in the high school, or whether part of it should be done by our people in the employment offices, when the young people come seeking jobs, or whether it should be done by advisers under provincial departments, I do not know; but somewhere I think we can get together. To that extent I would agree quite heartily with my hon. friend.
I said a word about the remarks of the hon. member for Simcoe North, but I want
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Vocational Training Co-ordination Act to repeat that if in my remarks I misconstrued anything he said this afternoon and made him feel that I was not being fair to him, I certainly regret it deeply. I am sure he knows that I did not mean in any way to put into his mouth words that he did not intend to say.
The hon. member for Victoria (B.C.) gave an excellent outline of the historical background of this whole business. I may say quite frankly that I do not think any member of the House of Commons is better qualified to do so. He has been on the advisory council of the vocational training co-ordination plan since its inception. He has also represented his province on the advisory body with respect to the rehabilitation program. I am delighted to have him here. I can also say that I regret that we do not have him on these two advisory bodies. He has given a complete story of the background of this work of vocational training in particular, and I am glad to have it on the record.
To come to the points mentioned by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, he stressed the importance of co-operation between the two departments, namely the Department of National Health and Welfare and the Department of Labour. I am going to tell him that there is the closest of cooperation between not only two but three departments, namely the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of National Health and Welfare and the Department of Labour. Since the beginning, three years ago, in getting this program going, they have worked in the closest co-operation and harmony. As a matter of fact the three ministers have acted as an ad hoc committee. All decisions that have been reached have been arrived at jointly by the three ministers. Each of the three departments has senior officials acting as representatives on the national advisory body on rehabilitation. In the provinces where there are now being created comparable co-ordination committees on this work, officials of the three departments serve on those co-ordinating bodies. Carrying the matter to metropolitan areas such as Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto, where metropolitan committees are functioning which co-ordinate all the many private agencies with the municipal and provincial agencies, there too the officials of our three federal departments are serving.
Perhaps I should enlarge upon that. To act as a permanent missionary or person responsible on the national level, we were able to obtain the services of Mr. Ian Campbell from that excellent workmen's compensation rehabilitation centre at Malton, Ontario. He has been appointed our national
2644	HOUSE OF
Vocational Training Co-ordination Act co-ordinator. The plan involves the appointment of provincial co-ordinators, and most provinces either have a man in sight or have already appointed one.
The way in which a disabled person in a province will find the channel to rehabilitation in the near future may be something like this. If that disabled person is in need of medical assistance before undergoing training, on application the provincial coordinator of rehabilitation, who will be in the provincial capital, will put him in touch with the medical facilities available. The co-ordinator will then carry through as adviser so that the disabled person will be able to take advantage of vocational training and placement services through the provincial and federal agencies that may be in that province. I believe that answers the hon. member's question on co-operation.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We shall know better when we get the other piece of legislation.


Milton Fowler Gregg: The hon. member for Brandon-Souris asked if it would be possible for young people who wished to take agricultural training to do so. I refer the hon. member to schedule "O", which he mentioned, and the second part of it which is commonly called the youth training program. This second part reads as follows:
Youth training projects for persons from rural communities, fishermen, and those engaged in primary industries who are not served by the regular school systems. Training is given to shorttime classes usually in the winter months. Costs are shared 50-50 with the provinces.
If the provinces make recommendations for training in agriculture under that schedule, they will receive the consideration of the federal director of training.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Could the minister indicate whether there is any aid of that kind going to Manitoba at the moment?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I should not like to express an opinion at the moment, but I will bring in an answer at a later time.
Mention is made also of the regional directors. The reason regional directors are not yet in some of the provinces is that there have been officials there known as liaison officers. My hon. friend will be glad to know that regional directors are now being planned for all the provinces, so they may be in a position to give the necessary publicity which he has suggested.
The hon. member for Victoria (Ont.) mentioned recreational training. I shall ask him if he will bring up that point on the estimates of my colleague the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Any co-


operative plan for recreational training comes within the physical fitness program which comes under my colleague. He also stressed, as other members did, the training of nurses. I heartily agree with what has been said in that connection. It will be noted that under the plan for vocational training that phase of assistance is covered by the special grants to what are called worthy professional students at universities. Assistance has been given in the past to the extent of 50 per cent of that provided by the provinces.
The hon. member for Greenwood stressed that in the acquiring of skills or other things, the individual should not be forgotten. I am heartily in accord with him. In considering the material things, to which we attach so much importance, we should not overlook the importance of encouraging things of the spirit. As a matter of fact, in so far as this training is concerned my department just acts as the agent between this parliament and the ten provinces. We have the most cordial relations possible with all those ten provinces. I think the hon. member for Greenwood will agree that in the field of education generally a good deal of consideration is given by provincial systems to the development of the whole individual. Nevertheless, I am glad he made his point.
The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra mentioned the merchant seamen. He spoke of those who were being trained for seamanship, but I think he had in mind those former seamen who had become unemployed, and not necessarily those who served as merchant seamen during the war. We are in the midst of carrying out a survey across the country as to the needs in this connection. Of course we can train and are training some of them under other schedules, but we are attempting to give special consideration to the best way of serving them.
I should like to say a word or two about the advisory council and alternate members. There is a great advantage in continuity, but with busy people it often happens that some member of the council cannot attend a meeting. It did seem too bad that the province or organization that person might represent should be deprived of knowledge of what was taking place, and of the opportunity of making a presentation if that was desired. At first there was a good deal of feeling to the effect that if a member could not come it was just too bad, he would have to pick up the information next time. After a good deal of thought it was felt that there should be alternate members. These alternate members would be chosen in exactly the same way as the original members, namely in consultation

with the people they represent. If the alternate member came to attend a meeting, his expenses would be paid just as the original member's would be.


Howard Charles Green: The alternates would be
appointed by the cabinet?


Milton Fowler Gregg: That is right, after getting the advice of the same bodies from whom we received it when the first representatives were named.


Howard Charles Green: Would the minister say something about the shortage of schools? He did not deal with that.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes; and that reminds me that I did not reply to a question asked by the hon. member for Wellington South. He spoke of his municipality or community not being able to afford a school. Under our capital assistance plan on vocational schools we deal directly with the province. So I suggest to my hon. friend that if the vocational school he has in mind meets with the approval of the province, and if the province will make that recommendation to my department, it will receive consideration, just as a great many others have since this plan has been in effect.
To give a short answer to the question, our information is that in the main the need for vocational schools in Canada has been pretty well filled. That does not mean there is not a need for some in certain sections of the country for special purposes. This condition is reflected in the estimates for this department in the present year; the item is down, but we feel from the survey of the situation we have made that the amount provided will be enough to take care of this year's requirements.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Gregg thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 326, to amend the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PENSION ACT


Hon. Hugues Lapointe (Minister of Veterans Affairs) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Pension Act to make provision for the payment of additional pension for legally adopted
Pension Act
children; to extend the benefits of the act in certain other cases; to provide that the salaries of the chairman, deputy chairman and commissioners shall be fixed by the governor in council; and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.


Hugues Lapointe: Mr. Chairman, in introducing this resolution I should like to state that the proposal to amend the Pension Act at this time does not arise from any changes in the basic rates of pensions paid to disabled veterans, nor does it depart from any of the major principles underlying this legislation. Rather it is intended to confer some additional benefits upon certain dependents of veterans and to remove certain difficulties which have arisen in the administration of the act and in its interpretation by the commission.
I believe all hon. members will agree with me that, in general, the provisions of the Canadian Pension Act have been warmly approved and generously interpreted. And that is as it should be. I believe it is the general desire of the Canadian public that those who have suffered from service to their country, and the dependents of these people, should be adequately compensated.
Without going into any details of the bill which will follow the resolution, perhaps I might explain some of the major amendments. One which I am sure will meet with the approval of all members of the committee is a provision to allow the commission to pay pensions for adopted children of pensioners. For a number of years now members on both sides of the house have joined with the various national veteran bodies in the country in urging that consideration be given to such a measure. This proposal has had my own sympathetic support, and I must say I was very pleased to recommend to the government that in this bill an amendment should be introduced to empower the commission to pay pensions in respect of children legally adopted by a pensioner, subsequent to the appearance of an injury or disease for which he is pensioned.
I believe the restriction that has existed heretofore was in the act to protect the child as well as the treasury against a practice known as baby farming, which might have existed some years back. It is felt now that adoption legislation in the various provinces provides sufficient protection, and that the commission is capable of protecting both the child and the treasury of the state in this connection. Therefore I am happy to introduce that amendment to the Pension Act. Of course the amendment will also maintain

Pension Act
the right to pension of legitimate children born to the pensioner subsequent to the injury or disease for which he is pensioned.
Another major amendment to the act will advance the cut-off date for the marriage of pensioned veterans of world war I. The house will recall that in 1951 the cut-off date was advanced from 1948 to May 1, 1951. This was the most recent of several changes made in the act concerning this dateline, and it is now proposed to recognize wives of pensioners who were married prior to January 1, 1954.
On this particular point I have been asked this question. Why not abolish the dateline altogether, since it is now 36 years since the end of world war I. I confess that at first glance I felt this suggestion had merit. However, on further consideration I have recommended an advance in the dateline which, I believe, was first introduced in May, 1933. I believe the reason for fixing a dateline was to protect the veteran and the treasury from so-called deathbed marriages between aged pensioners and very much younger wives who it was felt might have some mercenary motives. I must say that I have never thought this was very flattering to womanhood in general.
However, with the average age of world war I veterans steadily climbing, it seemed wiser to retain the dateline to protect the sound marriages and retain the terms which this method provides, because under the act as it exists today the wife of a pensioner who is in receipt of a pension of 50 per cent or over-that is, from 50 per cent to 100 per cent-automatically becomes the recipient of a widow's pension of $100 a month when the veteran dies, provided that she is otherwise qualified; that is, that the marriage was a legal one and the widow has not disentitled herself. I believe this generous provision merits the protection that a cut-off date for marriages provides.
Another feature of the bill concerns helplessness allowances. As hon. members know, helplessness allowance is paid to very seriously disabled veterans who need to have constant attention. This allowance is paid to them over and above the pension. The allowance can be from $480 up to $1,400. However, when the pensioner is in one of the departmental institutions for treatment and attendance is provided for him, the helplessness allowance is stopped. It has been

found that many of these cases, after having been in the hospital for some time and having returned home, remain as what are called outpatients of the hospital. They are still on the departmental strength as outpatients, and the act as it exists has created some difficulty in permitting the commission to give such a pensioner the helplessness allowance which he was receiving before entering hospital. Fortunately there are not too many of these seriously disabled pensioners who must have helplessness allowances. I believe there are slightly over 1,000, distributed between world war I and world war II veterans. Others of course need to have constant attendance, but they are looked after in our institutions.
The other amendments, Mr. Chairman, are designed to facilitate the administration of the act by conforming with terms used by the department and by the commission, and they clarify certain powers vested in appeal boards of the commission.
Finally, as the resolution specifies, it is intended to introduce an amendment to permit the salaries of the members of the pension commission to be determined by the governor in council rather than by statute as it exists at the present time. This is really for the purpose of permitting, when it is felt that increases are justified, the commissioners to be adequately compensated, without it being necessary to introduce a bill. It is the pattern which is followed, I understand, in most governmental bodies set up as this commission is. Of course parliament has control of this money, as an item must be provided in the estimates to pay those salaries.
As I stated, Mr. Chairman, the changes in this amending bill do not involve any major new expenditures. They are designed more to make the administration of the act uniform and equitable and to tailor the procedures to present-day needs.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Chairman, it is almost six o'clock. I would ask you to adjourn the discussion, but before doing so I wonder whether I might congratulate the minister. I noticed in this morning's paper that today is the anniversary of his birthday and I should like to extend him my congratulations and to wish him many happy returns.


Clarence Gillis: Before we adjourn I have one question to ask. Is it the minister's intention to send this bill to the veterans affairs committee?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes; after the bill receives second reading it is intended to refer it to a special committee.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Walter Edward Harris: As agreed, tomorrow we shall take the resolution with respect to the Bank Act. Then, if it meets with the approval of hon. members, we might conclude this resolution so the bill might be available for second reading early next week. After that we shall take the public works estimates and continue the debate we had yesterday. On Friday, if it is agreeable, we shall begin with the housing bill in committee and then take the remaining estimates of public works, in case the item under discussion is passed. I think it is the agreement as well that if the resolution on the Bank Act is passed tomorrow and
Business of the House the bill is given first reading, second reading will be called as the first item on Monday.


Mr. Fleming:: I thought it was understood that, because the housing bill has to be reprinted and the banking and commerce committee completed its work only yesterday, the bill was to be brought before the house on Tuesday.


Walter Edward Harris: The bill will be printed and available at about 2.30 p.m. tomorrow. It had been intended to have the housing bill debated on Monday, but the hon. member for Eglinton will not be available that day, so it was decided to make it Tuesday. But we have found that the minister is not going to be available on Tuesday, so we have altered it to Friday because both of them can be present, or so I understand.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is very good of them.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
83276-168i
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, March 4, 1954