1954-03-19

[Stage Direction]
Third report of standing committee on standing orders.-Mr. Harrison.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1954, was presented by Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.

Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table order in council P.C. 408 which proclaims the National Housing Act, 1954, as of Monday, March 22, 1954. I am also tabling a copy of the regulations under P.C. 409 as well as P.C. 410 setting forth the interest rates. The maximum rate of interest for insured mortgage loans has been established at 5J per cent. In respect of rental insurance loans, the same rate applies. The interest rate for limited dividend companies remains unchanged at 3 f per cent. The maximum level of loans for home ownership has been established at $12,800 for a single house and $15,300 for a duplex exclusive of the insurance premium. Regulations for the operation of the act have been established and the form of mortgage deeds has been determined. There is provision that prepaid monthly tax instalments in the hands of the approved lenders shall bear interest at the savings account rate of the chartered banks. Explanatory leaflets and forms are being distributed so that the new legislation may be operative next Monday morning.


Mr. Fleming:: May I ask the minister when copies of the regulations will be available for distribution?


Robert Henry Winters: I think they could be made available almost immediately. I will endeavour to see that they are available Monday.



INCREASE IN MAXIMUM WHERE SERVICES SUPPLIED

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mrs. Ellen L. Fairclough (Hamilton West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works with reference to a statement he made earlier this afternoon. Will the minister say whether consideration will be given to increasing the maximum amount in cases where municipalities contract with other subdividers for the purpose of putting in services, such maximum to be increased by a relative amount for each piece of property.


Robert Henry Winters: That is a matter I shall have to take into consideration.



PRIVATE BILL


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 378, to incorporate North American Baptists Inc., (Canada).-Mr. James.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Inquiries of the Ministry Immigration Act. I feel it would be completely inappropriate for the government of Canada to make any representation about a matter of this kind to the government of the United States.


Mr. Drew:: I would point out to the Prime Minister that reports indicated certain possible requests to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other details of that kind. I recognize that there would and could be no suggestion of refusing entry to any citizen of the United States. The question was directed to the possibility that, having regard to the circumstances, some indication might be made that our relationships would be best served by discussions of this kind on the other side of the line.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Frequently invitations come to Canadians to visit places in the United States and to speak there, and I think it would be quite unusual and quite unfortunate if there were any attempt by either government to censor what might be said by a person who receives and accepts such an invitation. I know that Canadians who receive and accept such invitations are conscious of the delicacy of their position, and I would hope that any citizen of the United States who received and accepted an invitation to speak in Canada would be equally conscious of the delicacy of the situation that might be created if he went beyond what would be generally looked upon as reasonable bounds.


INQUIRY AS TO ENTRY OF RUSSIAN ARTISTS INTO CANADA
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John Decore (Vegreville):: In the
absence of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, may I direct this question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration? Is the minister aware of a statement recently made in Toronto by the Russian ambassador to the effect that the soviet government has gladly accepted the invitation from the Canadian soviet friendship society to Russian singers, violinists, ballerinas and other artists? If so, is it the intention of the government to allow these people, who are so anxious to charm us with their music, entry into Canada?


Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: The soviet government did make application, Mr. Speaker, for a temporary visa for the people mentioned by the hon. member for Vegreville. As is our custom under these circumstances, we asked for information about the artists and the purpose of their trip to Canada. That

information has not yet been received, and until it has been received no decision will be made.


REPORT ON CONFERENCE AT WASHINGTON
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Donald Methuen Fleming: May
I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he will give the house some report on the conference held at Washington this week between representatives of the Canadian government and representatives of the United States government, and in particular tell the house what agreements or undertakings were entered into on behalf of either of the countries with respect to trade in any of its aspects?


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I am glad to take this opportunity to tell hon. members something about the meeting. I consider it a very important meeting indeed. I believe it is the first occasion on which four senior cabinet ministers of the United States have met with four members of the Canadian government to discuss matters of common interest in the field of economics. I think that the meetings were summed up very well by the communique issued at their conclusion, which I have not seen published in full in the Canadian press. I suggest that the reading of that communique may give my hon. friend the answers that he requires. It reads as follows:
The first meeting of the joint United States-Cana-dian committee on trade and economic affairs was held in Washington on the 16th of March. The United States was represented by Hon. John Foster Dulles, Secretary of State, Hon. George M. Humphrey, Secretary of the Treasury, Hon. Ezra Taft Benson, Secretary of Agriculture and Hon. Sinclair Weeks, Secretary of Commerce. Canada was represented by Right Hon. C. D. Howe, Minister of Trade and Commerce and Defence Production, Right Hon, James G. Gardiner, Minister of Agriculture, Hon. Douglas Abbott, Minister of Finance-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Did I slip?


Mr. Argue:: Years ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I continue:
-and Hon. L. B. Pearson, Secretary of State for External Affairs. In addition to the members of the joint committee, Governor Adams, the assistant to the President, the Hon. Douglas Stuart, United States ambassador to Canada and Dr. Gabriel Hauge, economic assistant to the president, participated in the discussions.
The purpose of the meeting was to provide an opportunity for United States and Canadian ministers to examine the trade and economic problems that are common to both countries.
The ministers noted that the flow of trade between Canada and the United States is greater than that between any other two countries. They discussed

various aspects of present trade relations and agreed on the desirability of avoiding any action which would interfere with this trade from which the two countries derive such great benefits.
Since the common economic problems of Canada and the United States can be solved with greatest success in a world where the volume of trade is steady and increasing and where exchange arrangements are of a kind to facilitate such growth, consideration was given through the discussions to the need for action towards freer trade and payments on a broad front. It was agreed that few things would contribute more to the well-being and stability of the free nations of the world than a forward move in this direction. The need for such progress seemed all the greater at a time when many western countries are faced with the necessity of supporting effective defence programs over a long period.
The United States and Canadian ministers found encouragement in many of the economic developments that have taken place over the past year. They noted that the gold and dollar reserves of other countries generally have been rising; that there has been a marked improvement in the internal economic stability of many countries; and that these favourable developments have made possible some relaxation of import restrictions. Nevertheless, it was agreed that the recovery to economic health has not progressed equally for all countries. What is needed, it was concluded, is the creation of a more flexible system of trade and payments throughout the world which would offer greater resilience to changing circumstances and which would contribute dynamically towards rising standards of living. It was agreed that much of the necessary preparation for such an advance has already been accomplished by the work of the commission on foreign economic policy in the United States, by the proposals of the commonwealth economic conference, and by discussions within the organization for European economic co-operation.
In the meantime, it was agreed that it is essential that pressing, but possibly temporary, economic problems should not be solved by expedients which might make more difficult the advance on a broad front that was held to be necessary. One immediate problem which received close consideration was that raised by the accumulation of large agricultural surpluses. Special incentives and favourable weather conditions have operated in varying degrees to enlarge these surpluses. The ministers of both countries recognized that if surpluses were to be disposed of without regard to the impact on normal trade great damage might be done not only to the commerce of Canada and the United States but also to the world economy. The ministers reaffirmed that it is the continuing policy of their respective governments, in disposing of agricultural surpluses abroad, to consult with interested countries and not to interfere with normal commercial marketings. They stated that it is their settled intention that any extraordinary measures that might be adopted to reduce surpluses should result in greater consumption and should augment, and not displace, normal quantities of agricultural products entering into world trade.
In advancing toward a freer system of world trade and payments, it was agreed that existing international organizations would continue to play an important role. The valuable work already done by the international monetary fund, the international bank and the contracting parties of the general agreement on tariffs and trade was recognized. Ministers noted with satisfaction the arrangements which have recently been made within the fund to enable its resources to be used more effectively. Acknowledgment was also made of the useful service that has been performed by GATT in developing a code of commercial conduct and in
Inquiries of the Ministry providing a forum where multilateral tariff agreements could be negotiated and where the problems of commercial policy could be discussed.
It was appreciated that it is for countries whose currencies are now inconvertible to decide when and under what circumstances they might wish to make them convertible. It was also realized that enlightened economic policies on the part of the United States and Canada will materially contribute to establishing and maintaining broader freedom of trade and payments throughout the world. Because of the importance of that objective, the United States and Canadian ministers warmly welcomed the evidence of a desire in many countries to take decisive steps toward the restoration of a broad area of convertibility, and expressed a willingness to do their part to help in making such a movement successful.
The discussions at this meeting of the joint committee were marked by the friendliness and candor which are characteristic of relations between the two countries. At the invitation of the Canadian ministers the second meeting of the joint committee will be held in Ottawa.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask the minister for some more specific information following the rather general statement which he has read. What steps, if any, have been undertaken with respect to removing the effect of breaches that have occurred thus far on the part of the United States congress in the letter and spirit of the general agreement on tariffs and trade, and also specifically what measures are likely to be taken in the reasonably near future with respect to the matter of convertibility?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member refers to many violations of the agreement on the part of the United States. I know only one that can be considered a violation, and that was not of tremendous importance to Canada. I am speaking of the dairy products quota. It is my hope that future action in that direction can be avoided by neither party taking any action that will be in violation of the GATT agreement.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister did not deal with the second part of my question, nor did he get the full purport of my question. I was not speaking of future breaches of GATT. I was talking about the possibility of taking steps to correct the breach the minister referred to, the restriction on the importation of dairy products from Canada. The second matter was the matter he mentioned in his speech, namely convertibility, and I would ask him if he could tell us more specifically what steps are contemplated in that direction?


Clarence Decatur Howe: So far as the first question is concerned, no steps were taken to deal with dairy products. This was an exploratory meeting. I know of no way in which a meeting of that kind could reverse an act of congress.
3148	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
So far as the second question is concerned, the conference made known to all the world that it considered that steps to convertibility might be taken according to the timing set by other countries, and that when convertibility was undertaken by any country co-operation from the United States and Canada would be forthcoming.


INQUIRY AS TO UNITED STATES GIFT TO JAPAN
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I wonder whether the minister could tell the house whether he learned if the United States is proceeding with the reported gift of 500,000 tons of wheat to Japan, and whether as a result of the conference there will be cooperation between Canada and the United States in sharing the Japanese market for grain?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The United States informed Canada some weeks ago that they considered the food situation in Japan would warrant a gift of wheat and barley under section 550, and asked if we had objections. We said that we were negotiating with Japan and we had objections at that time, but the objections might be removed by further negotiations. Our negotiations reached the point where a commitment by Japan for wheat from Canada in 1954 and 1955 was considered satisfactory. We then told the United States we had no objection to their proceeding with the gift.


Hazen Robert Argue: Would the minister say what the Japanese commitment to buy Canadian wheat is?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, I could not say that.


APPLICATION TO DEFENCE CONTRACTS OF SALES OUTSIDE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT
Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert):: I should like to ask a further question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Is he in a position to say the degree to which, as a result of this meeting, it is expected markets will be found for surpluses of wheat; and, in particular, will he find out whether or not the United States is now selling wheat to countries outside the international wheat agreement below prices fixed by the international wheat agreement, and in some cases by accepting foreign currency, or applying credits for wheat sold to defence projects in some of the countries. Would he say something about the wheat situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All I can say about the wheat situation is that while the volume of wheat moving into world export channels is lower than it was a year ago, Canada seems to be holding its share proportionately of the wheat that is being exported to world markets.
The United States makes it a practice to consult us about any sale that is made at other than standard terms, either inside or outside the wheat agreement. We have found that there have been few occasions where we could have any reasonable objection to the proposal that was made to us. Where we have objected to a transaction, satisfactory arrangements have been worked out. I may say I have no knowledge of any sale, either inside or outside the agreement, made on a dollar basis, that has not reflected prices that were generally competitive.


John George Diefenbaker: Would the minister say the nature of the transaction to which objection was raised, and where the United States agreed, after objection was raised, to drop the sale the United States had in mind?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Sales under section 550 of the mutual security act which provides that surpluses can be given to countries in need of wheat to meet the disaster of famine needs. The argument was whether the countries were really in need of wheat for such purposes, or whether wheat should be offered to them as a standard commercial transaction.


FARM STORAGE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. H. Castleden (Yorklon):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce with regard to the prairie farmer who finds himself unable to deliver any of his grain. Is consideration being given to making advances through the wheat board to the farmer on properly stored farm grain, in order to relieve the critical financial situation now developing in the prairie provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The answer is no.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Angus Maclnnis (Vancouver-Kings-wayi: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Has the minister

seen an editorial in the Financial Times of today's date dealing with recent price fixing legislation passed by this house, and stating that in the case of the vast majority of nationally advertised goods price fixing is still continuing?
Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: I wish to thank my hon. friend for having given me notice of this question, and also for having sent to me a clipping of this editorial upon which in his notice he had asked me to comment. My first reaction after reading the editorial as a whole was that it did not deserve or require comment. But I think perhaps, out of courtesy to the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway, that I might offer this comment.
One of the functions of the present inquiry into loss leader selling is to consider the large number of complaints that have been received about price reductions in the sales of many nationally advertised goods. These price reductions are attributed, by the merchants who have made these complaints, to our federal legislation prohibiting resale price maintenance. I feel, therefore, that these complaints contradict rather conclusively the main contention of the Financial Times editorial.



BRIDGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. E. Lennard (Wentworth):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. What progress has been made between the federal government and the Ontario government on plans for construction of the proposed new overhead highway bridge over the Burlington canal at Hamilton beach?


Robert Henry Winters: The Ontario government has now submitted sketch plans of a proposed high level bridge over the Burlington canal, and we are actively considering the request for the federal government's financial participation in the project.



PUELIC BUILDINGS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver-Quadra):: Is the Minister of Public Works in a position as yet to answer a question I asked him two days ago concerning the possible use of marble from Italy in the new Vancouver post office?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, marble is being used in the Vancouver post office interior to finish columns and walls. The specification is for imported marbles, in the main Italian, because of colour and patterning required. A considerable amount of the marble used will be domestic. The tenders for this building were just received last Wednesday. The information has not as yet been obtained from the lowest tenderer as to what prices or materials he has included in his bulk tender for this particular trade.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask
a question of the Minister of Labour, notice of which I sent him in the hope that he might be able to answer it today. Since the minister was able to give the house on February 15 the results of the labour force survey for January, could he now give us the comparable figures for February, including the total number of persons now seeking employment in Canada?


Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour):: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not able to do so. And I might add that, since receiving notice of my hon. friend's question at lunch time, I did get in touch with officials who are responsible for the preparation of the monthly statistics on unemployment, and I am informed by them that they will be able to have the joint March release of statistics on unemployment available at about the same time, namely the 25th of the month, as they did with the report which was issued in the month of February.


Mr. Alistair Siswart (Winnipeg North):: May I ask a supplementary question? Is the government's inability to give a figure due to by-elections next week?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If my hon. friend infers, as was implied in the Gazette this morning, that there has been any effort at all to delay these figures, due to any by-elections, then I deny it outright.



MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Carl O. Nickle (Calgary Soulh):: May
I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce this question:	Is his happier-than-usual
expression due to the ending this morning of the lengthy radio contest-

Inquiries of the Ministry


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Carl Olof Nickle: I might say I was wondering about that, because the answer was the one I gave to the house on February 23.



PACIFIC GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. B. R. Leboe (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Transport. Has the government arrived at a decision in respect to aid to the British Columbia government for the extending of the Pacific Great Eastern Railway? If not, when will the minister be able to make a statement regarding the giving of such aid?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport):: The answer to the question is that the minister is not aware of any application having been made for aid from that quarter. Until it has been made, there will be no opportunity for rendering a decision.


Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops):: May I ask a
question of the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) arising out of the answer given by the Minister of Transport to the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Leboe). Did not the premier of British Columbia make a submission requesting financial aid, among other things for the Pacific Great Eastern Railway, when he was down here to interview the federal government before Christmas?


Lionel Chevrier: If the Prime Minister will allow me to answer, I would say that the brief that was presented by the premier of British Columbia, and those associated with him, was a very long brief-if I remember correctly it was thirty or forty pages long- having to do with proposals, not only concerning the railways but other matters. In my capacity as head of the Department of Transport, I did not consider that as an application for aid in connection with the project he has in mind to extend the Pacific Great Eastern Railway from Squamish to Vancouver. And I am sure, from conversations I had with him afterwards, neither did he consider it as such. I understood from him that if there was an application to be made it would be made in due course; and it has not yet been made.
[Mr Nickle.]



INCREASE IN DELIVERY QUOTAS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce whether he can say when producers may expect an increase in grain delivery quotas, and what proportion of marketing points are still on a five bushel quota.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some progress is being made toward larger quotas. Unfortunately, as I pointed out earlier, the movement of wheat has been concentrated toward the Pacific coast, so that the situation is easier in Alberta than in the other provinces. But we have increased' the quotas to seven bushels per specified acre at seven points in Manitoba, three in Saskatchewan and twenty-four in Alberta. We have increased the quota to six bushels per specified acre at twenty-two points in Manitoba, twenty-three points in Saskatchewan and fifty-nine points in Alberta. It is anticipated that further increases in quotas will be announced as space in the elevators warrants.


Hazen Robert Argue: Would that be within the next couple of weeks?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The increases before mentioned have been made operative.



EMERGENCY GOLD MINING ASSISTANCE ACT


Hon. George Prudham (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys) moved: the third reading of Bill No. 376, to amend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.


Mr. Rodney Adamson (York West):: Mr. Speaker, before this bill passes, and' in order to make the position absolutely clear, I wish to make a brief statement.
Gold is money. Money is of value because it is freely convertible into goods and services, by direct exchange. For gold to fulfil its major function, it must be made freely exchangeable into goods or services by the same simple operation based on agreement between buyer and seller. This is the essential qualification of the free market. It is the basic law of the capitalist or free economy.
It is my contention that the problem of gold will not be solved until this is brought about.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



EXPORT AND IMPORT PERMITS ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Thursday, March 18, consideration in committee of Bill No. 374, to control export and import of strategic materials-Mr. Howe (Port Arthur)-Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.
On clause 5-Import list of goods.
Mr. Macdonnell:: When the committee rose last night I had made a few remarks with regard to this clause and I had drawn the attention of the committee to the fact that here again we are up against the problem to which we have grown so accustomed, namely, handing over power in large instalments to the executive. I wondered last night whether perhaps I am getting a little bit hipped on this. I am quite sure many people in the committee think I am, but I must confess that, for some reason I am not quite able to explain, it did hit me last night in a much more emphatic way than it has for some time; and I might have come today in a repentant mood, Mr. Chairman, I might have come and almost apologized for what I said last night, if it had not been that in the interval there came into my hands a book on parliament called "The Passing of Parliament", written by a man who would appear to be a responsible authority and whose words might command some attention. He is Professor G. W. Keeton, professor of English law at University College, London. As I read what he had to say about the passing of parliament, and particularly the words that I am going to ask the committee to listen to-those who are interested in this-


The Chairman:: Order.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: -I came across these words, and as I say they struck me, and I wish to put them before the committee. You may ask, Mr. Chairman, what I think is going to happen from this, and I would not be so sanguine as to say that it is going to have very much result; but we in the opposition have to go ahead hammering on what we consider to be important, perhaps hoping that we may attract the attention of the public. Sometimes, after perhaps a year of what seems complete frustration, we do attract interest outside this house, and it is in the hope that I may do that that I read these words. I recall to the committee, Mr. Chairman, that they seem to come from a respectable and thoughtful source. I recall they are
IS, 1954	3151
Export and Import Permits Act written about the mother of parliaments, which Tennyson, I suppose, had in mind when he said about his native land:
A land of settled government,
A land of just and old renown,
Where freedom slowly broadens down From precedent to precedent.
I am going to read from a man who is apparently afraid that freedom is not broadening down at the moment; that it is actually in danger, and it is because of that I am asking you to listen to these words. I read from "The Passing of Parliament" at page 199:
The problem which faces all peoples which are still attached to the democratic way of life is to find some means of curbing the power of the executive, and preventing it from usurping the entire functions of government.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. I have been listening for some minutes and wondering whether the hon. gentleman heard me when I said we were discussing clause 5 of this bill.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: You are the chairman, sir, but I suggest that clause 5 introduces the principle that we have so often had here as to how much power is to be handed over to the executive. If I am right in that, then I suggest that comments from worth-while authorities as to the relationship between the executive and us who are in the legislature is relevant. I defer to your ruling, Mr. Chairman.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. I should think it would be relevant to discuss the clause which reads in part:
The governor in council may establish a list of goods-
I should think relevancy would be, for instance, in discussing the list or the advisability of establishing the list.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman, I submit, and I am going to suggest, that no reason has been given us for the first two subclauses of this bill, and that the reasons given seven years ago are irrelevant.
I again submit it is relevant to raise the question as to the need for the powers. This clause is really asking extraordinary powers. I hope to be able to convince the committee, or I shall try to convince the committee, that these powers are not necessary. I believe the situation has greatly changed since 1947, and we are happy that it should be so. I believe we shall find that not very much action has had to be taken under these powers in the last year or two. I come back, Mr. Chairman, and suggest that I believe it is relevant to consider the whole question of
3152	HOUSE OF
Export and Import Permits Act handing over to the legislative branch of government the power to act by order in council.


William Alfred Robinson: No; I am sorry, but I do
not think I should allow the hon. gentleman to open up a broad subject of that kind. The discussion in committee must be relevant to the clause, and I would ask the hon. gentleman to confine himself to a discussion of the clause under consideration.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I will defer to your
ruling, of course, Mr. Chairman. I now want to read clause 5 and I shall then read what the parliamentary assistant gave to us in explanation of it. Clause 5 reads as follows:
The governor in council may establish a list oi goods, to be called an import control list, including therein any article the import of which he deems it necessary to control for any of the following purposes, namely,
(a)	to ensure, in accordance with the needs of Canada, the best possible supply and distribution of an article that is scarce in world markets or is subject to governmental controls in the countries of origin or to allocation by intergovernmental arrangement;
(b)	to implement any action taken under the Agricultural Prices Support Act, the Fisheries Prices Support Act, the Agricultural Products Co-operative Marketing Act or the Agricultural Products Board Act, to support the price of the article or that has the effect of supporting the price of the article; or
(c)	to implement an intergovernmental arrangement or commitment.
I now wish to draw to the attention of the committee the remarks made at page 3067 of Hansard by the parliamentary assistant, as follows:
The provisions of this bill, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the control of imports, differ from those in the existing act only in that the purposes for which import control may be exercised, as set out in section 5, include specific authority "to implement an intergovernmental arrangement or commitment." This change is being made to define more clearly the power that is required from time to time to carry out arrangements with other countries, particularly with the United States. It is preferable on occasion that we control our imports at the request of the United States, rather than leave it to the United States to impose export controls on shipments to Canada.
With reference to paragraph (c) of the measure, to which I shall return in a moment, I would just like to point out the extraordinary, unlimited range in this paragraph. The parliamentary assistant did not make any comment on paragraphs (a) and (b). I quite understand that, because they are not new paragraphs, and he probably feels that the reasoning which was used at the time the measure was passed would still be valid.
I would earnestly suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the situation has changed vastly since then. I now wish to read what was said by the then minister of trade and commerce, and I hope the parliamentary assistant will


agree that the reasons given there are largely if not utterly inapplicable now. I wish to read from page 568 of Hansard for 1947, volume I:
The provisions in respect of import control are equally necessary, though there may not be quite as general an understanding of the reasons therefor. In some instances the major supplying countries of a given commodity have taken control of its distribution and stipulate that an importing country, in order to receive an allocation, must agree to import no more than a stated quantity. Such a situation may arise from an international allocation of goods in short supply, such as the present international authority dealing with edible oils and fats. Alternatively, it may arise from one or more countries deciding to market a commodity by making allocations to the various importing countries. Where such an allocation is made it is necessary for us to ensure that the limited quota available to Canada is not acquired by a few of the bigger users, at the expense of smaller consumers. It should be noted that the supplying country, in many of these instances, establishes a fixed quantity for Canada, but it is no concern of theirs as to how fairly the share allotted to Canada is distributed among the Canadian interests that require supplies. That is something that Canada must look after herself.
I believe the parliamentary assistant will agree that much of what is said there is quite inapplicable in regard to the present situation. Indeed, I believe he will agree it is entirely inapplicable. For, whatever reasons have been used to place articles on the list within the last few years, it has not been these reasons. I hope the parliamentary assistant will be able to explain that.
As far as I can see we have no explanation for the continuation of paragraphs (a) and Ob). Indeed, it would seem from an examination of the export and import control board reports that they have no relationship whatever, particularly to paragraph (a).
I would like to read the new paragraph (c) and to ask the committee to consider very carefully the wording. If you had allowed me to read that passage I intended to read, Mr. Chairman, which is full of interest, then what I am now going to read would have been of much greater interest to the committee. However, I am sure you would not allow me to take up the time of the committee now on that point. The wording of paragraph (c) is as follows:
to implement an intergovernmental arrangement or commitment.
That is broad enough, but it does not say how that commitment is to be made, nor does it define in that paragraph what an intergovernmental commitment is, though I notice that the definition section says the minister means "the Minister of Trade and Commerce" and:
includes any person authorized by him to perform his functions under this act;
In other words, as far as I can see, an intergovernmental arrangement or commitment can even be made by telephone. T do

not see any reason why it could not. I do not know whether it could be made by the proper official. But again I do not see any reason why it could not, particularly when you consider the power that is being sought under this act. It appears to mean that the proper officials can take actions which really mean, in effect, that in respect of the action taken the tariff arrived at by a process of careful debate in this house ceases to matter, because what is the use of having a tariff if you say this or that article may not be imported at all?
That, Mr. Chairman, seems to me an extraordinary power for the government to seek. As I said before, it nullifies the tariff laws. It is really an unlimited power, as far as I can see. The paragraph "an intergovernmental arrangement or commitment" does not even say that it is limited to the effect of this clause. Lawyers might construe it that way, but the words are wide open. The parliamentary assistant himself, whom I would now like to quote, does nothing in any way to limit it. He says, as reported on page 3067 of Hansard of March 16, 1954:
. . . the power that is required from time to time to carry out arrangements with other countries, particularly with the United States.
I do not wish to labour the point, Mr. Chairman, but I feel the powers asked for here are unprecedented. I do not like to use the word "unprecedented" because someone may drag up a precedent which is very strong. However many precedents there may be, I do feel the clause confers extraordinary powers. It is quite unlimited and unless the parliamentary assistant can suggest how it is limited we are, in effect, being asked to hand over this power to the executive, which means that four men sitting together can exercise this power and bind the people of Canada.
I have read what was said in introducing this measure years ago. I have argued that by no stretch of the imagination have we a situation which corresponds with that, or comes anywhere near approaching it. The report of the import and export control board for 1952 states that one of the things which was done by the order in council at the request of the United States authorities was adding non-ferrous metal scrap in order to control imports from the United States.
I would ask the parliamentary assistant to tell me by what stretch of the imagination that came in under the act as it was before. I am not able to think of anything which confers the power to do that, as the act was constructed before. I am ready to be corrected, but I assume
19, 1954
Export and Import Permits Act the feeling that the government did not have the power is the reason for putting this clause in the bill now.
As I said before, Mr. Chairman, we have got used to this kind of legislation. We know the Minister of Trade and Commerce does not need legislation. He simply says, "Who would stop us?" We know he said in this house not long ago as reported on page 4197 of Hansard, April 21, 1953:
If we have overstepped our powers, I make no apology for having done so.
I must admit, however, that other ministers are more considerate. They do come here and they do allow us to pass legislation. They, at least, allow us to be present at our own funeral and they allow us to be the instrument of our own degradation. If we pass this legislation we hand over this power to a government which is supported enthusiastically on the other side of the house and by some of my hon. friends on my right.
Again, Mr. Chairman, I stress the unlimited power in paragraph (c). There is no suggestion of any limitation. With regard particularly to paragraph (a), no reason whatever has been given for passing it. I suggest to the parliamentary assistant that the reason used by his predecessor in 1947 is no justification whatsoever, and in particular I would ask him to give us some account of how this section is being used at the present time, or whether in fact it has practically petered out. I would also like to know if, in fact, the reasons for which it was originally instituted have disappeared, and whether it is now being used, as I suggest, for purposes completely different from those originally put before us. I believe that is a fair statement, but I am open to correction.
As I read these reports of the committee, I ask myself where they spell out in the act the things it has done. If that is so, I suggest that this section should not be passed. I hope that the parliamentary assistant will be able to answer some of these questions.
Before I take my seat I just want to say that if in fact it turns out on this account that this section has almost passed into disuse, I hope that we shall not be asked to pass it just because it is nice to have lots of power lying around. This gentleman in England whom I was not allowed to quote has pointed out at page 200 that you could have not only departmental regulations but even departmental circulars acquiring the force of law. I suggest that we should not slip any further in that direction and that this section as it stands at present should not be passed.

Export and Import Permits Act


Hazen Robert Argue: Before the parliamentary assistant replies to the hon. member for Greenwood I should like to comment on the statement that has just been made. If the hon. member for Greenwood and the members of the Conservative party are so strongly opposed to clause 5, it seems to me that the thing for them to do, in order to be consistent, is to call for a vote and to record their opposition to clause 5. If such a vote were called I think I would be prepared to support clause 5, because when I asked the parliamentary assistant last evening whether subclause (a) or subclause (b) was now being used, he replied that (b) was being used in the case of import control of butter. If this section were being used only for such a purpose, I think it would be of sufficient value to be retained. Of the stability measures the government has used in recent years one of the few that have really worked has been this program in relation to stabilizing butter prices. If this section should be taken out, I ask the parliamentary assistant whether that means that the government would then have no power to control the importation of butter into Canada. If that should be the situation-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I ask the hon.
member a question?


Hazen Robert Argue: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would the hon. member not agree that it is better to have butter kept out by direct, open law than by indirect use of a statute which was probably never intended for that purpose?


Hazen Robert Argue: I am not too sure whether I know what indirect law is as opposed to direct law; but in any event, if this clause is passed, I think it will be law. As it reads, it says that the government has power under this act to set up an import control list to carry out the purposes of the Agricultural Prices Support Act. I am not a lawyer but, speaking as a producer, if this type of law achieves a useful purpose, namely to stabilize prices for the dairy industry with regard to butter, it would seem to me that we should be extremely careful in tampering with it and that we should not oppose it. If, without this section, there should be no law that would control the importation of butter into Canada, it would mean chaos to the dairy industry. Production goes up in spring and early summer; and with a surplus of butter, the price would go down at an alarming rate. Following that event, with the drop in production of butter in the wintertime, the price of butter would go up probably by a similar amount and we would have the old cyclical fluctuations in butter prices that I think have 
been of value neither to the producer nor to the consumer. My question to the parliamentary assistant therefore is this. Is this section necessary in order to carry out the government's program to stabilize butter prices?


Mr. Dickey:: Perhaps I might first of all answer the direct question asked by the hon. member for Greenwood in connection with non-ferrous scrap. He asked under what power in the Export and Import Permits Act import permits were issued in that connection. The power is in section 4 (a) of the Export and Import Permits Act which contains the words "or governmental controls in the countries of origin". Import permits in connection with non-ferrous scrap were required because of government control in the United States which made it necessary for a Canadian importer to have a permit from Canada to import the scrap in order to effect his purchase in the United States and to get his export approved from that country.
The hon. member for Greenwood has raised a question of importance and one that the committee properly should consider carefully, namely the justification for the passage of this section which gives certain powers to be exercised by the governor in council. In particular, that power under this section will be to establish a list of goods which shall be called an import control list. The hon. member for Greenwood suggested that the arguments for the justification of similar powers which were contained in the Export and Import Permits Act-and which will be replaced by the bill now before the house if and when it receives parliamentary assent-do not now apply. He quoted some of those arguments in favour of the granting of the powers at that time and has suggested that they do not apply. As a matter of fact I think he defied me to say that conditions had not changed and that these arguments still justified the inclusion of similar powers in the present act.
I would say to the hon. gentleman-and I hope he will agree with me-that the very reasons he has quoted justify the existence of some power of this kind which can be used when required. For example, in his quotations he referred to situations of shortage of a particular import in the country of origin. Mr. Chairman, when a situation of shortage exists in the country of origin, we have found that the practice of that country usually is to make certain restrictions on the export of that commodity and to require certain assurances from any importing country that the particular material is going to be used for a proper and, in some instances, for an essential purpose. The

usual means employed by importing countries to give that assurance is the issuance by themselves of an import permit to the national of their country who wishes to purchase in the foreign country and to import.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I appreciate that. Will the parliamentary assistant permit a question?


John Horace Dickey: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is it true to say that the situation which has just been described is much less than it was a year or two ago, that in fact there is practically none of that at the present moment?


John Horace Dickey: Yes, Mr. Chairman. As I said in the committee last night in answer to a question, there is no item which is under import control now under this subsection. The example I gave, and one that is relevant to the particular discussion we are having now, is sulphur and brimstone which was under import control for the very reasons we have been discussing. The situation of shortage has disappeared at the present time, but it might reappear for reasons quite beyond the control of the government of Canada or anybody in Canada. A similar situation might arise with respect to any one of a number of rather essential imports this country requires, and the Department of Trade and Commerce and the government have come to the conclusion that that is one reason why the existence of a power of this kind is still justified at the present time.
The hon. member referred to the very wide powers, to the existence of the power to create monopolies and to exercise discrimination. I think we will have to admit that in dealing with matters of this kind it is impossible to exclude completely possibilities of that kind. The hon. member referred to the four men in the back room, I think he said, as being able to exercise these powers and suggested that that brought thoughts to mind of the possibility of quite serious difficulties arising. In judging that, I think parliament is justified in looking at how the power has been exercised. I think that is a fair test. I think the hon. member will agree with that. He may argue with some justification that past performance is not a complete guarantee of what will happen in the future, but in coming to a reasonable and logical conclusion on a matter of this kind I do think that parliament and this committee are justified in looking at what the experience has been.
What has been the experience? As has already been pointed out by the hon. member for Assiniboia, the only item now subject to the exercise of these wide and sweeping
19, 1954	3155
Export and Import Permits Act powers is butter which is under import control by reason of the authority established under section 4 (b) of the Export and Import Permits Act now in force and which I believe is exactly similar in its terms to clause 5 (b) of the bill. It is a control that has been put into force under legislation specifically intended to effect the results that it is thought necessary to achieve, and was not, as I understood the hon. member for Greenwood to imply in his interjection or question, done under some act which was intended for another purpose. I do not think that is correct. It was done under a power that was intended for the specific purpose and to achieve the specific end that is in fact achieved.
The list of items that have from time to time been under import control during the whole existence of the Export and Import Permits Act is as follows: Iron and steel, shearlings-that is, sheepskins-sulphur and brimstone, to which we have already referred, butter, to which reference has already been made, livestock, meat and meat products, and non-ferrous metal scrap, to which reference has also already been made. I think the committee will realize, from a brief description of the circumstances under which these various items came under import control, the basic justification for the existence of powers of this kind which can be exercised when required.
Examples of import control under section 5 (a), which was referred to by the hon. member for Greenwood, are items which are included under international allocation by the international materials conference. An example of them is sulphur and brimstone. In order to carry out our obligations to limit the import of sulphur into this country, and in order to carry out our obligations to direct sulphur into essential industries within Canada, this item was put under import control on May 30, 1951. Immediately sulphur became in easier supply the control was lifted, on October 28, 1953.
Butter and meat products are examples of control under section 5 (b). Butter continues under control as the price is being supported under the Agricultural Prices Support Act. In his remarks a few moments ago the hon. member for Assiniboia indicated the essential nature of a control of that kind in order to make price support effective. Meat and meat products were placed under control on March 3, 1952, during the epidemic of foot-and-mouth disease inasmuch as we were supporting the prices of these products at that time under the Agricultural Prices Support Act as one of the essential means of dealing
3156	HOUSE OF
Export and Import Permits Act with the very difficult situation that had arisen as a result of the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. This control was lifted on February 26, 1953, immediately the foreign markets we had previously enjoyed were again open to our products as a result of the elimination of the danger of contamination or infection of livestock in the United States by foot-and-mouth disease.
Examples of control under section 5 (c) would be-and I say "would be" as that particular section has not been enacted into law before-iron and steel, shearlings and non-ferrous metal scrap. These items were put under control under the present act during a period of world shortage when our principal supplier, the United States, was allocating supplies through the use of their export control mechanism. In order to avoid the imposition of export controls on United States goods moving into Canada, we undertook to control this movement through our own regulations. These items were removed from import control on January 7, 1953, April 4, 1952, and March 19, 1953, respectively. I might point out to the committee that Canada is, I think, the one nation that has not been subject to export controls from the United States. I believe that has been a very important factor in the maintenance of a high level of trade between Canada and the United States. I feel that few things contributed to that as importantly as the power that we had to impose controls ourselves rather than have them impose export controls upon us; that was a very important contributing factor indeed.
The final point made by the hon. member for Greenwood was to ask me whether or not the need for this power has disappeared, and to what extent that meant this power was being retained and re-enacted simply because it is nice to have powers. I can tell him that that is not correct. The limited use of those powers is not properly the test of the need of the powers, but it is a test of the manner in which the powers have been used. It indicates, I think, the restraint and the care that have been brought to the exercise of these powers. It is our firm belief, Mr. Chairman, that these powers should exist.
I feel that the point the hon. member made is more an indication of the reason the committee should re-enact these powers that are necessary with some confidence that the same kind of restraint and care will be taken in their exercise in the future.


Mr, Macdonnell:: I am grateful for the
explanation given by the parliamentary assistant. I am glad to know, in particular,


the restricted application he gives to paragraph (c). I understand him to have said that he regards paragraph (b) as necessary for the control of the import of butter. If that is the case, then I agree with him that paragraph is needed. I propose to move an amendment which I hope may be accepted. It is not of a controversial nature. We could vote on that, and when that is over, in view of what the minister has said about his belief that paragraph (b) is needed for the control of butter, we shall vote for it. This is my amendment, Mr. Chairman, and you will see it is designed to make sure that parliament is as fully informed as possible of the action taken.
The amendment reads:
That clause 5 of Bill No. 374 be amended by adding to both subclauses (a) and (c) at the end thereof the following words: "which shall be tabled in parliament within fifteen days of it being entered into if parliament is then in session or within fifteen days of the next following session of parliament if parliament is not then in session."


William Alfred Robinson: At this time I wish to thank the hon. member for Greenwood for sending up his amendment in typewritten form. It is of considerable assistance to the chair. Might I also make this suggestion, that hon. members might be kind enough to send to the Chair two copies of amendments because I am advised by the law clerk it assists him if he also has a copy.


John Horace Dickey: From the wording of the suggested amendment, I presume the hon. member for Greenwood intends to require the tabling of any intergovernmental arrangement or commitment within the time specified in the wording of the amendment. If that is correct, I am afraid I am advised the amendment could not be accepted.
The only intergovernmental arrangement or commitment that is in force so far as clause 3 of this bill is concerned is, I am advised, the United Nations resolution to which reference was made in the debate in committee last evening. In so far as paragraph Cc) of clause 5 is concerned, there is no formal intergovernmental arrangement or commitment at present in force. Under clause 5 (a) there are some informal arrangements between governments which are not reduced to the form of a treaty or protocol or anything of that nature between the governments, but which are agreed upon between the responsible ministers of the governments concerned and which have the effect indicated in my earlier remarks.
It would therefore, Mr. Chairman, be impossible for the government to undertake to table intergovernmental arrangements or commitments between governments that had

not been reduced to formal documents between those governments. Information relating to those arrangements and the placing of goods on the import control lists as a result of such arrangements is given to parliament in the annual report that is tabled in parliament each year, and in the future would be included in such annual reports. In that way parliament would be fully informed of any action which it was found necessary to take under this section. I feel that perhaps would meet the wishes of the hon. member and the committee, to have the full information before parliament, as is suggested in the amendment.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would it meet the requirements the parliamentary assistant has laid down if we inserted the words "the terms of"? In other words, it would be the terms of it which would be tabled. We want to be reasonable in the matter. It is only a question of information. Would that meet the difficulty the parliamentary assistant has indicated? If not, would he suggest some other wording?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Perhaps the words "the effect of which" might be suggested.


John Horace Dickey: I am informed by the officials that these lists, and any changes made in the lists under the powers contained in the Export and Import Permits Act, and which are contained in the bill before the committee, are published in the Canada Gazette, and are therefore public and available to all hon. members as well as to the trade. Perhaps that is sufficient notice to hon. members of action taken under this power.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am aware of that; but it seems to me this is not a very onerous request, when we ask that these requirements should also be tabled in parliament.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some of the arrangements may be confidential. It would not be possible to cover all the arrangements made. These are international arrangements, made usually in concert at least with the United States and the United Kingdom. I should think it would hardly be possible to comply with the suggestion of the hon. member.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the minister appreciate that the wording of the proposal is that we be given "the effect of it". In other words, we are not asking for a report, word by word, but rather for the effect of such report.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Would the hon. member be satisfied with our tabling the Canada Gazette where these matters are referred to? I do not think we can say that that procedure covers all the arrangements 83276-200
19, 1954	3157
Export and Import Permits Act made; but at least it is the working advice to the exporting and importing public of the regulations as they stand from day to day.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is not the point this, that that which is published in the Canada Gazette is the order in council made placing an article on the import permit list?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What we are seeking is the effect of the arrangement made under which that order in council was passed. I do not think that would appear merely from an examination of the commodities included in the list.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The point I have made is that the reasons for making the order may be confidential. I could not agree to tabling the correspondence leading up to the order, or anything of that sort.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I stress again the words we have used, because we want to be co-operative. There is no suggestion of tabling the correspondence. The words we use are "the effect of which". As my colleague has pointed out, merely a list showing the results, without an explanation, is not satisfactory. What we are asking is that we might have the effect; it is not a suggestion to table the correspondence or to give a great deal of detail. It is only a suggestion to set out the effect.


Edmund Davie Fulton: May I just offer this brief word of explanation. I think the minister and his assistant will agree-and what I am saying is not necessarily a criticism-that the power to make intergovernmental arrangements and to carry these arrangements into effect by order in council, as set out in this bill, does give a very broad measure of control over the whole Canadian economy. I make that as a statement of fact.
Therefore what we are seeking is an assurance that, before such orders in council having that broad effect on the Canadian economy are passed, parliament will be informed of the effect of the intergovernmental arrangement which has been concluded, and that we will have in broad and general terms the reasons therefor, so that we may be satisfied that the exercise of the powers conferred under the act, and by the orders in council in question, are in fact necessary. Otherwise we would not know the background for suddenly placing a certain commodity or commodities on an import control list. All we are asking is that the effect or the general terms of an international agreement upon which such order is based may be laid before parliament within a reasonable time after it is concluded.

Export and Import Permits Act


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think we can go some considerable distance toward meeting the wishes of my hon. friends. There may be secret agreements-that is, agreements to forestall certain eventualities-that we could not table. But, generally speaking, I think we could table the information the hon. members want. Of course, every order in council implementing an agreement would be tabled in any event. But perhaps we can go farther than that. I would' not like to commit myself to laying all the information before parliament; but anything that is not of a secret nature could be tabled if that would be satisfactory.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The amendment could be altered by putting in the words "the effect of". In other words, it could be left in general terms, without demanding any detail, and accepted in that way.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, "consistent with secrecy provisions", or something of that sort.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That would certainly be understood. May I read it again, just to see whether it would be satisfactory. It would now read:
-the effect of which shall be tabled in parliament within fifteen days.
The words "the effect of which" would seem to leave it pretty wide open for just a general summary.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That may be all right. We may be able to accept an amendment with the words "the effect of which".


William Alfred Robinson: Order, please. After congratulating the hon. member for Greenwood upon sending forward a nicely typewritten amendment, I now find myself in difficulty, as the amendment is being changed. And may I point out another difficulty, in that subclause (a) ends with a semicolon and subclause (c) ends with a period. I think that should be taken into consideration.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes. Technically, to comply with Your Honour's suggestion, perhaps we could take it clause by clause. The motion of my hon. friend would then be-
That subclause (a) of clause 5 of Bill 374 be amended by deleting the semicolon where it appears in line 23, and substituting a comma therefor, and adding thereafter the following words, "the effect of"


Walter Edward Harris: May I suggest that this clause be permitted to stand so that it may be drafted.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Yes.
Clause stands.
Clauses 6 to 14 inclusive agreed to.
(Mr. Fulton.]
On clause 15-Diversion, etc.


Howard Charles Green: This is a new clause. May we have an explanation of the effect of it.


John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, this clause is intended to make it an offence to do acts in Canada which have the effect of transshipping or diverting goods which have been exported from Canada to a particular destination under an export permit, and which do not arrive at that destination as their final destination but, because of the intervention of an act in Canada, the goods are finally delivered to a destination that would not have been approved as the final destination upon their leaving Canada. I am advised that this applies to imports which leave another country destined for Canada and which before reaching here are diverted to another destination. An example would be German ball bearings ordered in Germany for delivery in Canada which, at some intermediate point, are diverted from Canada to Poland, for example, Czechoslovakia or Hungary. It is to make illegal any act which is done in Canada to effect a purpose of that kind.


Howard Charles Green: It must be meant to cover the case where the goods do not actually reach Canada but by reason of action of some kind are diverted to another country before they arrive in Canada.


John Horace Dickey: That is exactly the purpose.


Howard Charles Green: Can the parliamentary assistant give us an example of where that has happened?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can do so. A
shipment of ball bearings was ordered in Germany for delivery in Canada. The import permit was issued. The shipment moved to Brussels in the ordinary way, and then instead of being shipped to Canada was shipped into Russia. The arrangement was made by a Canadian, and under the existing act we could not prosecute him.


Howard Charles Green: The Canadian arranged for the goods to be diverted to Russia?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: Was he actually a resident of Canada or was he in Germany?


Clarence Decatur Howe: A resident of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 16 and 17 agreed to.
On clause 18-Aiding and abetting.
Howard Charles Green: This clause reads as follows:
No person shall knowingly Induce, aid or abet
or attempt to induce, aid or abet any person to violate a provision of this act or the regulations.

There was no such provision in the act which is being repealed by this particular bill. Here you are not only taking provision to punish a person who violates this legislation himself but you are punishing those who aid or abet, and the penalties under the legislation are very heavy. In fact, they are contained in clause 19 and they are being increased over the penalties which are now in the present act. Why is it necessary to go so far under what is in effect not criminal law, but a bill to regulate exports and imports. I doubt whether there is a similar drastic provision in any other bills of this particular kind.


Clarence Decatur Howe: May I point out that these are very serious offences. They are offences designed to put military equipment in the hands of other countries. Anyone who makes it his business to go around and try to influence ordinary business deals in the way I have mentioned as affecting German ball bearings should be punished for doing so.


Howard Charles Green: That particular man would be punishable under the ordinary provisions of the act for breaking the act, but-


Clarence Decatur Howe: He would, now.


Howard Charles Green: -this section goes farther and says that anyone who induces, aids or abets, and in addition attempts to induce, aid or abet, shall be guilty of the same crime as the person who actually breaks the law. Surely it is not necessary to go that far.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We had a case some time ago of a shipment of aluminum that was destined to a legitimate destination and was diverted to another destination. It was due to someone procuring an agent of the shipper to bring about that diversion. It was not known to the company, but some enterprising gentleman intervened with a minor official of the company and worked out the diversion. The result is a very considerable breach of security regulations. I think this provision should be included.


Howard Charles Green: Would it not be enough to provide for the inducing, aiding or abetting, rather than also including "attempt to induce, aid or abet"? That seems to me a very drastic provision. Surely the person should only be convicted if he did actually aid or abet and not for attempt to aid or abet.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If a man only makes that offer to bring it about and the offer is not accepted that does not constitute a crime. However, if my hon. friend is insistent I am willing to accept the suggestion. Perhaps it will work without the latter provision.
Export and Import Permits Act


Howard Charles Green: In other words, the minister would be willing to leave out the words "or attempt to induce, aid or abet".


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall clause 18 carry?


Howard Charles Green: With that amendment. The minister has agreed to strike out the words "or attempt to induce, aid or abet", so that the section will read:
No person shall knowingly induce, aid or abet any person to violate a provision of this act or the regulations.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Clause as amended agreed to.
On clause 19-Offence and penalty.
John George Diefenbaker: I do not know whether the minister has given any information yet as to the number of prosecutions that have taken place under the act. I was not in for the entire discussion and I have been wondering whether he could give the information as to the degree to which there have been, first, offences committed by the doing of wrongful acts and, second, attempts to do those acts by aiding, abetting or otherwise.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There have been 23 prosecutions and 18 convictions.


John George Diefenbaker: Will the minister say
why the penalty has been increased? Is it because of the fact that the penalties up to the present time have been too low, having regard to the seriousness of the effects of wrongdoing under this act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is exactly the reason. I recall one case where the person prosecuted ended up with a profit of about $23,000 and the fine imposed was $50. Such transactions may involve a great deal of money.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
On clause 20-Officers of corporations.
John George Diefenbaker: Will the minister explain this clause and the reason for it? A reading of it would indicate that it is designed to fill a loophole that existed previously; in other words, to make assurance doubly sure that when the corporation commits this offence each and every director who knowingly contributes to the commission of the offence becomes liable. If that is the correct understanding of the clause, then I think it is a material advantage to have it in the new form; for certainly too often evasions of the law take place under the guise of a lack of knowledge on the part of the directors, and they escape their responsibility.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This clause arises from the fact that operators in this Held
3160	HOUSE OF
Export and Import Permits Act usually have several companies with no assets, and usually it is not very effective to find a company guilty; the purpose must be to get at the principals.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister has now brought up a very interesting point. To what degree is that type of evasion being practised, namely, the setting up of those companies whose only capital is of a nominal nature and whose assets are as non-existent as the capital?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is quite widespread. I could not say how many there are.


John George Diefenbaker: Are they within Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. They may be either provincially or federally incorporated.


John George Diefenbaker: What provinces permit that type of incorporation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am enthusiastic-


William Alfred Robinson: We are on clause 20.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I am *enthusiastic about the first part of this but I am rather bothered about lines 15 and 16.
.. . . the offence took place with his knowledge or *consent or that he failed to exercise due diligence to prevent the commission of such offence.
It seems to me it is going pretty far to make a man a criminal by proving he could have done some thing which he did not do.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, if a man is either an officer or a director of a company engaged in criminal activities the presumption must be, I believe, that he had some knowledge of the activities of that company.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the minister really wishes to go as far as that. I have in mind the case of a company which is not a small private company or a one-man company. If you took what the minister said you would make a man a criminal if he was a director of a large company which did these things. If I understand the minister correctly, such a person would be a criminal even though he knew nothing about it and had no chance to know. I do not believe that is what is intended.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it is Intended. I believe people should be careful of the company they join as directors.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman, I want to question the minister once more on this, and also to question the wording. I want to go back to what the minister said, that people ought to have enough sense not to become directors of a company that would do that kind of


thing. I want to question whether it is felt necessary, with the experience which has oeen gained, to pass a clause which makes a man a criminal though in fact he may have had no knowledge whatever. According to the minister's language, a man who is a director is almost automatically charged with knowledge of what has been done. That is not according to the facts.


John Horace Dickey: If I may, I would like to point out to the hon. gentleman that these words are included in the clause: "failed to exercise due diligence to prevent..." I think these words protect a director in the position set out by the hon. member. I think I should also inform the hon. member and the committee that statutory provisions, relating to offences, in exactly the same form as this are to be found in section 16 (3) of the Aeronautics Act; section 163 of the Canada Grain Act; section 42 (2) of the Canadian Wheat Board Act; section 182 of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act; section 134 of the Income Tax Act; section 16 of the Proprietary or Patent Medicine Act; section 38 (3) of the Combines Investigation Act, and section 53 of the Immigration Act.


John George Diefenbaker: Will the parliamentary assistant read these, because in all of them I understand there is a provision that anyone who has failed, with knowledge of the fact, to exercise due diligence to prevent a commission of such an offence is guilty. Of course, under the clause as it now stands a director without knowledge would be said to commit an offence if these words were added:
. . . the act or omission constituting the offence took place with his knowledge or consent or that he failed to exercise due diligence to prevent the commission of such offence.


John Horace Dickey: I am informed that the words relating to "knowledge" are included in the Canada Grain Act, the Canadian Wheat Board Act, the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and the Combines Investigation Act, but not in the other acts I referred to. That is the one difference between this section and the sections in these particular acts.


John George Diefenbaker: Would the parliamentary assistant read these sections, because I think each one of them has the words "with knowledge" or words to that effect.


John Horace Dickey: I am advised that section 53 of the Immigration Act contains exactly the same wording and section 16 of the Proprietary-


John George Diefenbaker: Would the parliamentary assistant read these sections so that we can see how closely alike they are?

Export and Import Permits Act Mr. Dickey: I will have to send out for Mr. Green: Why is the licence turned over them if the hon. member wishes me to read at all to a person outside of Canada? Why is them.	it necessary to do that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Could that section be allowed to stand meantime?


William Alfred Robinson: Shall clause 20 stand?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Clause stands.
On clause 21-Responsibility of resident applicants for non-resident permittees.


Howard Charles Green: Clause 21 is new and it contains this same provision. I wonder if the parliamentary assistant would explain the purpose of the clause, and give us an example?


John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this clause is to cover the case where a nonresident exporter operates in Canada through a Canadian agent. This clause has the effect of making the agent, who is the person who applies for the necessary permit in Canada, responsible for the proper use of that permit. I believe it will be quite obvious that there would be no purpose in making the improper use of export permits illegal for Canadians if someone resident in another country were able through a Canadian agent to make an application for an export permit and evade the act in a way which was not possible for a resident in Canada. This clause is to enable the agent to be charged with the responsibility for the proper use of the export permit he procures for his principal.


Howard Charles Green: If the clause as it now reads is passed the result will be that if a Canadian resident applies for a permit for the use of someone in another country, and then that person in the other country, without the knowledge of the Canadian resident, commits an offence against this act, the Canadian resident is breaking the act and can be convicted unless he shows that he exercised due diligence to prevent the commission of the offence. That seems to me even more drastic than the final two lines of the preceding section dealing with the officers of a corporation. There is some direct connection between the officers and the corporation, but in this case the department is issuing a permit apparently knowing that a Canadian will have to do business through someone outside Canada. Surely it would be sufficient to have the Canadian guilty of an offence if the offence took place with his knowledge or consent.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We would put our licences into common international use if we allowed an agent to obtain a licence, turn it over to a man in another country and have no further responsibility in the matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not, perhaps.


Howard Charles Green: As I understand it the department can control the transfer of a permit. If the department has approved the transfer of a permit, does not that fact relieve the Canadian resident of the responsibility?


John Horace Dickey: It is not so much a matter of the transfer of a permit; it is a matter of what happens to the goods. That is the important thing. I am informed that this provision was discussed with the customs brokers and with the trade and they are quite in agreement that this is a proper provision. This is as to a Canadian agent accepting instructions from a principal outside the country, and it simply requires that he exercise due diligence to see that no offence is committed in connection with the disposal of the goods that he has undertaken to procure as an export from Canada under an export permit that he applied for.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 22 to 26 inclusive agreed to.
On clause 27-Duration.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but you are not going to be able to give me the same praise here. I have an amendment which is not typed out but it is so simple that I think there will be no difficulty about it. It is natural that, in connection with these bills which we hope are covering an emergency situation, we should like to see them have as short a duration as possible. Without saying anything more I am going to move:
That section 27 be amended by striking out the figure "1957" and substituting therefor the figure "1955".
I am not going to comment at any length except to say that we feel that legislation of this kind should be subject to review at reasonably frequent intervals. I therefore move this amendment. The minister has been so helpful, he will probably agree to it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sorry that we cannot accept this amendment, Mr. Chairman. Ever since this bill was first introduced, it has been the practice to establish a period of three years. We see no reason for changing that practice. We expect this period of emergency not to end within a year. We dislike to take up the time of parliament each year in extending this bill; such a procedure is expensive to the Canadian public and annoying to the members of parliament.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: But think how much we have enjoyed ourselves!

Export and Import Permits Act


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might say that a report is filed each year on the operations of the act. If it appears that the act is not operative we should be glad to consider an earlier repeal of the bill. But we must insist that this amendment stand.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the amendment carry?


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


William Alfred Robinson: Those in favour of the amendment will kindly rise.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Just call for the yeas and nays, Mr. Chairman; let it be defeated on division.


William Alfred Robinson: Those in favour of the amendment will kindly say yea.


Some hon. Members:: Yea.


William Alfred Robinson: Those who are opposed will kindly say nay.


Some hon. Members:: Nay.


William Alfred Robinson: In my opinion the nays have it. I declare the amendment lost.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 28 and 29 inclusive agreed to.
William Alfred Robinson: Shall I rise and report progress?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Howard Charles Green: There is one clause yet to be dealt with.


John Horace Dickey: Two clauses were allowed to stand, Mr. Chairman. I think we can now deal with them.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall I call clause 5?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


John Horace Dickey: No, Mr. Chairman. I think that amendment is not yet ready. However, you could call clause 20.


William Alfred Robinson: Is it agreed that I call clause 20?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
On clause 20-Officers of corporations.


John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, I was requested by the hon. member for Prince Albert to read the section of the Immigration Act which I had indicated was in terms exactly similar to clause 20 in this act. I therefore do so. Section 53 of the Immigration Act, which is chapter 325 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952, is as follows:
Where an offence under this act or the regulations has been committed by a corporation and whether or not the corporation has been prosecuted or convicted, every person who at the time of the commission of the offence was a director or officer of tMr. Macdonnell.l
the corporation is guilty of the like offence and is liable on conviction to the punishment provided for the offence upon proof that the act or omission constituting the offence took place with his knowledge or consent, or that he failed to exercise due diligence to prevent the commission of such offence.
I have not been able to check it myself, Mr. Chairman, but I am advised that that section is exactly similar in terms to clause 20 of this bill.
On the question of the suggestion that the word "knowingly" or similar words be inserted in the final provision of this particular clause, I think I should say to the committee that, in connection with offences under this act-as is true in connection with offences under acts such as the Immigration Act-the proof of the element of knowledge is one that can in certain instances be particularly difficult. This matter was given careful consideration, and it was felt that there would be unreasonable and unnecessary difficulty in bringing to justice persons who were in fact guilty of offences under the act if the element of proof of actual knowledge were added to the already rather reasonable requirements that the crown prove a lack of due diligence to prevent. The law officers and the crown felt that that was sufficient protection to anyone who was not guilty of an offence; that it provided a proper element of defence; that to the requirement of proof of due diligence the addition of proof of actual knowledge was an undue burden of proof to impose on the crown and that it would contribute to evasions of the act that should not be permitted to occur.


Edmund Davie Fulton: We have not an amendment worked out, Mr. Chairman, but I wonder whether the minister and his assistant would consider the possibility of confining the effect and application of this section so far as the last two lines are concerned, starting with the words "or that he failed to exercise due diligence to prevent the commission of such offence", to a case of the export of strategic materials? I think no objection could be taken to the proposition that where a person gets a permit for the export of a strategic material which it is desired to prevent from falling into the hands of potential enemies, he there has an absolute duty thrust upon him to ensure that it does not fall into the hands of those potential enemies.
Therefore the provision of these words in imposing the duty of due diligence on him is reasonable, but in the case of a corporation engaged in ordinary commerce within Canada and, let us say, securing an import permit, it is well known that directors do not all pay close attention to the details of

the business. Quite often they are there for the effect of their names and their general business knowledge but do not participate actively in the detailed running of the business and to impose that burden of diligence and supervision upon directors with respect to the detailed activities of the firm within Canada is unreasonable. Therefore I put this proposition forward. Might it not be worked out to confine the effect of these words to the case of a corporation obtaining a permit for the export of strategic materials?


John Horace Dickey: I see the difficulty of the
hon. member and the point he raises, but I am informed that in our experience the only offences which have been committed against the Export and Import Permits Act have been offences in connection with the use of strategic materials, arms and munitions of war. The position seems to be that it is only in that regard that the possibilities of gain and profit are sufficient to be an incentive to firms and individuals to try to avoid the provisions of the act and to offend against it. So far we have not had a single instance of an offence being committed except in connection with the particular goods to which the hon. member refers, and we have no reason to expect that, when the new legislation becomes law, there will be any incentive for persons to commit offences other than in the same connection.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is that not the very strongest argument that could be advanced in support of my suggestion, that it is expected to be confined to export permits for the export of strategic materials? If that is the only case where it is expected that offences will take place, and the nature of the offence is not nearly so serious if it takes place in connection with the distribution of goods within Canada, it seems to me that is an argument in favour of the proposition. I do not want to press this unduly, but I would repeat my request that some form of words be worked out which would confine its effect to the very case which the parliamentary assistant has said is the only type of case they expect to arise.


John Horace Dickey: There are very real difficulties involved in working out a form of words of the nature that the hon. member suggests. The whole scope and wording of the section were carefully considered before the bill was brought into the house. The advice of the law officers was sought and the conclusion was arrived at that this was the proper and the best wording to recommend to the house, and that there was
19, 1954	3163
Fire Losses Replacement Account no reasonable expectation that it would impose any undue hardship on persons engaged in normal trade within Canada. No objection was raised by the trade to this provision. They did not foresee any particular difficulty arising, and I think I can assure the hon. member and the committee that that expectation is shared right through the trade.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Walter Edward Harris: There is one clause standing,
and with the permission of the committee we might rise and ask leave to sit again later this day. We may possibly have clause 5 ready for discussion, particularly if the hour between five and six is not taken up fully by private and public bills.
Progress reported.



CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND


Walter Edward Harris: the second reading of Bill No. 377, to establish an account for the replacement of government property lost, destroyed or damaged through fire.


Mr. W. M. Benidickson (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, at the resolution stage we had a fairly pertinent discussion about this bill but probably a few additional remarks would be in order. The object of the bill is to establish a fire losses replacement account and to authorize advances from the account for the restoration, the rebuilding or repair of property under the administration or control of departments and certain agency crown corporations that has been destroyed or damaged through fire.
The purpose to be served by this measure can be stated very briefly. It is to ensure, when a fire loss occurs and the replacement or repair of property destroyed or damaged is urgently and immediately required and there is not sufficient money available in the appropriation for the service suffering loss, that authority and funds will be available, subject to the approval of the treasury board, to proceed with the repair or replacement without delay.
To illustrate, a government hospital, a customs office, a fish hatchery, a garage housing valuable automotive equipment may be destroyed by fire and must be replaced immediately if essential services are to be restored with the least interruption. The balance available in the appropriation for the particular service concerned, which would not ordinarily include provision for

Fire Losses Replacement Account such a contingency, may not be sufficient for the purpose. Under the proposed bill the money required for the replacement or the restoration of the building or the replacement of the equipment or supplies might, with the approval of the treasury board, be advanced temporarily from the fire losses replacement account on the understanding that the account would be recouped subsequently by charges to the appropriation for the service concerned.
There is authority in the Financial Administration Act for the use of special governor general warrants when accidents happen to public works and buildings and expenditures for their repair or renewal are urgently required, but as hon. members are aware this authority is available only when parliament is not in session or is under adjournment sine die or for a period of two weeks or more.
It has also been the practice in recent years to include in the annual appropriations for the Department of Finance a vote for miscellaneous minor and unforeseen contingencies. However, this is limited in amount. $1,500,000 is provided in the estimates for the current year and only $1 million in the estimates for 1954-55, and the vote is intended to cover the contingency requirements of all departments. Consequently, if a major fire were to occur it might not be sufficient to provide funds for the replacement of the fire loss and to meet the other unforeseen demands that might arise during the course of the year. It is for this reason that it has seemed advisable to provide a special account to deal solely with fire losses.
It is proposed that advances from the account shall be subject to the approval of the treasury board, that they shall not exceed an aggregate of $5 million at any time, and that they shall be recovered subsequently by charges to parliamentary appropriations for the service suffering the loss.
The account is essentially an arrangement to ensure that when fires do occur essential services can be restored with a minimum of interruption by providing the means to make advances for the immediate replacement of the facilities lost or damaged.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: This matter was gone into in committee at the resolution stage, Mr. Speaker, and it seems to me it has been fairly well covered. The parliamentary assistant has explained the reason for what seems to me a sensible arrangement. As I understand it, the parliamentary assistant has answered satisfactorily the questions asked by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) and others, namely that in the expenditure of money here the same precautions will rMr. Benidickson.J
be carried out as are usual in other cases. In other words, that the money used in restoration work will be subject to all the safeguards with which work is usually done.
The question was also raised as to whether this might also be a means of perhaps greatly expanding the structure which existed before in the case of loss. I gather from the parliamentary assistant that there is no suggestion of that. The case is really simply this: Where you have a loss which good judgment says has to be restored, you shall not be held back by want of money. If it is as simple as that, it seems to me we should not have to talk very much about it.
There is just one thing I should like to ask, and perhaps if the parliamentary assistant is not fully informed on this he might inform himself before we discuss it again. It raises in my mind a question with regard to insurance. As I understand it government departments in general, perhaps all of them, carry their own insurance. In private business, this is done by insurance companies. There are, as we all know, insurance underwriters, as I think they usually call themselves, who provide what I consider to be a very valuable service. They act not merely as insurance agents to write to protect properties, but they offer expert and valuable advice, not only as to how to get your fire losses paid when you have a fire but how to avoid having a fire. In other words, they give most valuable engineering and other advice as to the best possible means of making a building fireproof, and in general doing everything possible to avert fires.
Now that, of course, in a private business is a matter of keeping down their rates, and it does in fact occupy the best attention of management. These experts render a valuable service. Perhaps the parliamentary assistant would prefer to answer this question later, but have we got services of that kind with regard to our public buildings or does the fact we are carrying our own insurance mean we have no service of that kind? We may, in fact, be penny wise and pound foolish-not that I like to suggest the expenditure of another dollar. I should like to have that question answered, perhaps when we get into committee.
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North
Centre): Mr. Speaker, I should like to say just a word in connection with this bill. As the hon. member for Greenwood has pointed out, we had a discussion on Tuesday of this week with respect to this legislation when we had the resolution before us. If I may say so, it seems to me that just about all the questions we asked on Tuesday are answered

Canadian Wheat Board Act
in the bill; just about all the points we felt Mr. Macdonnell: Could we have a word of should be covered are in fact covered by explanation from the sponsor of the bill as the terms of the bill.	to what came before the committee?
As we understand it, this is not a fire insurance policy in the normal sense of that phrase, but rather a fund so that a loss can be replaced pending the time when the appropriate estimate can be passed. I gather from reading the bill that in all cases any money that has been charged to this account must sooner or later be replaced. The money can be replaced out of money that has been appropriated in one way or another in the same year. If that is not done, I understand it must be replaced by an estimate in a subsequent year. On all counts it seems to be a desirable piece of legislation.
The only point I suggest is that it might be well to have a clause in the bill calling for an annual report to parliament. Most bills of this kind do have such a clause, so that we can be kept informed as to what is done under the legislation. I hope that suggestion might be considered.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 1-Short title.
Clause stands.
Progress reported.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: It
being five o'clock, the house will revert to consideration of public and private bills.



PRIVATE BILLS

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: There are two private bills of a similar nature. Shall they both be considered in committee at once?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Could we have an explanation from the sponsor?


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: The order is for the house in committee on these bills and therefore there cannot be a discussion until we are in committee.



COMMERCE MUTUAL FIRE INSURANCE COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 198, respecting Commerce Mutual Fire Insurance Company-Mr. Eudes-Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 1-Name changed.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: Perhaps I might mention that this bill has been considered and passed by the committee on banking and commerce.


John Horace Dickey: This is the usual form of bill relating to the Commerce Mutual Fire Insurance Company, which provides for a change in name both in English and in French. I have not the proceedings in the committee before me, Mr. Chairman. I understand it was given the usual consideration and the committee unanimously agreed to the proposal.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not wish to oppose progress, but it does seem to me the sponsor should have been here, just to give us some information. We are having the rubber-stamp principle rubbed into us in this matter, if we cannot have any information at all.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There probably is no report.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Does the hon.
member suggest that we report progress and ask leave to sit again?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Clause stands.
Progress reported.



CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Second reading of Bill No. 11, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act (Payment for farm storage).-Mr. Argue.
Walter Edward Harris: There is another private bill which should be called.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: Replying to the minister, it was my understanding that the house went into committee of the whole on two private bills, and that it was discussed in committee as to whether we should rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. I understood objection was taken to proceeding with the bills when the sponsors were not present.


Walter Edward Harris: But that was only on the first bill.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The sponsor of the other bill is not here either.


Walter Edward Harris: The sponsor of the other bill is here, if I may be permitted to say so.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Where?


Walter Edward Harris: Right behind me.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member for Ottawa West (Mr. Mcllraith)?

Private Bills


Walter Edward Harris: The hon. member for Ottawa West has asked the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Dickey) to take the bill.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There is no desire to hold up proceedings. Is it possible to get the other sponsor here while this measure is going forward? The last thing we would want to do would be to stand in the way of business being done. But it did seem to me that the sponsor should be here.


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Speaker, there is no objection to the course taken in respect of the previous bill. I understand the purpose of the hon. member for Greenwood in wanting to have information about that bill. But we did not call this second bill in committee of the whole; and I suggest that is the order of business which should be followed now.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaile):: Order. My understanding was that the chairman of the committee of the whole was of the opinion that he had asked leave to report progress on both bills. Under the circumstances, however, I think we should accept the suggestion that the house resolve itself into committee of the whole for the purpose of considering Bill No. 313.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 313, an act respecting the Dominion Fire Insurance Company-Mr. Dickey (for Mr. Mcllraith)- Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 1-Name changed.
John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, I was asked by the hon. member for Ottawa West, the sponsor of this bill, to speak for him at the committee stage. This bill, to change the name of the Dominion Fire Insurance Company, was introduced in the other place. It was passed there and was given second reading in the House of Commons on March 2. It has since been referred to and considered by the committee on banking and commerce, and Iras been approved by that committee.
I am informed that the only possible company which might object to this change of name, because of any possible confusion, is the Dominion Life Assurance Company. The committee considered and had before it a letter from the president of that company indicating that there was no objection to this change of name. I believe that was one of the considerations that influenced the committee on banking and commerce to report the bill.
IMr. Knowles.]


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I did not catch the name of the company that wrote in.


John Horace Dickey: The Dominion Life Assurance Company.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, March 2, consideration of the motion of Mrs. Fair-clough for the second reading of Bill No. 2, to provide equal pay for equal work for women.
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, this bill is described as an act to provide equal pay for equal work for women. It contains a recital which reads in this way:
Whereas it is desirable to enact a measure to prevent discrimination against women in respect of their employment by reason of their sex and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, to ensure that women will be paid at the same rates as men for similar or comparable work.
I deem it a great privilege to second the motion of the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) for the second reading of this bill. When it was last discussed on March 2, there was a speech by the hon. member, followed by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg). I thought he was under some considerable difficulty and embarrassment in trying to make out a case against the bill. He was not very convincing in his arguments, and summed up his position in this way, as reported at page 2594 of Hansard:
Again I say there is a difference between attempting to bring about a remedy by law and having it carried out by collective bargaining on the one hand, and probably the more potent weapon of education on the other. It is because I am not convinced of the necessity or the desirability of trying to enforce such a law within those industries which are subject to federal labour jurisdiction that I reluctantly find I shall have to vote against my hon. friend's bill.
Now, let us take a look at the objection that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) has to the bill. In the first place he intimates that these rates should be covered by collective bargaining. Earlier in his speech he pointed out that some agreements negotiated under collective bargaining contain equal pay clauses. He went on to say:
Some agreements contain equal pay clauses, and others simply carry out the principle of equal pay by establishing a rate for the job which is the same whether the job is done by a man or a woman.

Therefore it is obvious that the position is not going to be greatly improved by collective bargaining and I do not believe the minister was sound in opposing the bill on that ground. In fact, he went on to point out that the federal civil service commission follows the second course, namely, that of treating all jobs as equal no matter whether they happen to be occupied by a man or a woman.
His second ground was that this problem should be met by education. That is a very indefinite way to meet this problem. There has already been sufficient education of the people of Canada for them to know whether or not they believe in equal pay for women, and I am afraid the minister's suggestion that we should turn this problem over to someone unnamed to bring about more education was just an evasion of the question posed by this bill.
I believe this legislation is very timely. It was pointed out the other day by the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) that there is similar legislation in the provinces of Ontario, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. I hold in my hand a bill which was passed last fall by the British Columbia legislature. It is described as: "An act to ensure fair remuneration to female employees" and is cited as "The Equal Pay Act". The key words are to get the same pay "for the same work done in the same establishment". These key words are not exactly the same as the ones contained in the bill now before us, but I think they are of a similar nature and would be construed in the same way.
In British Columbia we have had a further move along this line recently. In February of this year the Vancouver city school board adopted the principle of equal pay for women teachers. I hold in my hand a press clipping from the Vancouver Province reporting that decision, and it says that the big factor this year in the negotiations of the pay for the year-
-was the principle of equal pay for equal work for the 1,100 women teachers in the city.
Therefore the principle has been accepted in our city, and I understand it has also been accepted in many other parts of this nation.
I would point out to the minister that just last year he himself sponsored a similar bill. I refer to the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act, chapter 19 of the statutes of 1952-53. It is described as "an act to prevent discrimination in regard to employment and membership in trade unions by reason of race, national origin, colour or religion." That act received the unanimous support of hon. members. It is in much the same terms
Industrial Status of Women as the bill brought in by the hon. member for Hamilton West. Enforcement is based on a complaint system and I suggest to the minister and to my fellow members that the two bills are very much alike.
Last year the minister was full of enthusiasm for putting on the statute books of Canada a bill preventing discrimination by reason of race, national origin, colour or religion; but this year he refuses to support a bill which would wipe out discrimination by reason of sex. Frankly, there is great inconsistency in the two stands taken by him.
You see, Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of a bill such as that which was passed last year, known as the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act, is to set a standard. Its purpose is not to put people in jail or have them fined or to make trouble across this land. The main purpose is to set up a standard, and it was on that basis that hon. members approved the legislation last year.
We have had other examples. I refer the minister to the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act. He has always been very much interested in legislation for the war veterans of this country and, as he knows, this act to which I am now referring was passed to help the veterans who returned to Canada to get back their old jobs. It has been effective. I do not think there could have been a more effective piece of legislation to enable the young men and young women who were demobilized to get back their jobs or to get reasonable employment.
The act contains drastic provisions for dealing with those employers who break the law. And yet, I understand from the minister's own department that less than half a dozen prosecutions have been laid under the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act. Actually there have been so few prosecutions that his department could not tell me just how many there had been, but after scratching their heads quite a while they thought that perhaps there may have been from two to five. There has been just that little need to take punitive action under that particular legislation.
The bill brought in by the hon. member for Hamilton West is of exactly the same type. I doubt whether there would be many prosecutions under it if it were to become law. There might be one or two. Probably there would be very few, because Canadian employers have shown down through the years that all they need to know is what the legislation is that stands on the statute books and they are prepared to abide by it. That has been shown only too clearly by literally
3168

Industrial Status of Women thousands of employers under this Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, and I am quite sure that the same results are going to flow from the Canada Fair Employment Practices Act which we passed last year. The Canadian people obey the law. Every hon. member who has had much experience here will agree with me when I say that once a law is placed on the statute books there are not very many Canadians who try to break it. The public reaction is: That is the law and it is reasonable, and we are going to abide by it. I feel quite sure that the result would be the same if this equal pay for equal work for women act were placed on the statute books.
This is not a bill on which the government stands or falls. The private members of the government party are in the position to vote for this bill, believing it is a proper measure, without, by that vote, endangering the government. I am quite sure the Minister of Labour will agree with me in that assertion. I see him nodding his head and therefore he does agree.
I would urge hon. members of this house to support this measure for the reason that it will set up a nation-wide standard. We believe that equal pay for women is a practice which should be followed. The government of Canada has shown approval of that principle for many years by treating its own civil servants in that manner. Now, let us complete the job by setting up, through this bill, a standard for the entire nation.


Mr. F. G. J. Hahn (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, I do not believe we can add materially to the value of this measure by debating it at any great length. However, our party has not yet indicated its view, and I feel that most of us are very much in accord with the spirit and letter of this bill. I am sure the mover of the bill will be glad 'of that fact.
The ladies in this house happen to be badly outnumbered but I do not believe they require a male, or any group of males, to take up the torch on their behalf in this particular instance. They are quite capable of making their own speeches. However, there are a few factors which are worth considering and which should be noted at this time.
The minister mentioned that according to reports 20 per cent of the people in industry have indicated their support for equal pay. That indicates that the unions recognize the need for paying women at the same rate as men. The minister also pointed out that 3 per cent indicated that they favoured a discrepancy in pay. One question immediately enters my mind. I wonder what
IMr. Green.]

proportion of that 3 per cent felt that women should be paid a higher rate of pay than men. It would be worth finding that out for I am certain women would be extremely interested.
The minister also said that the major congresses had not made representations to the government in this respect. Possibly the reason for their not having made representations in this respect is that the congresses feel, as so many of us do, that this is a provincial matter. However, it has apparently entered the federal field and therefore it should be dealt with at a federal level.
I support the spirit of this measure and I would suggest its adoption, although at the same time I recognize the difficulties involved in trying to implement it. There are certain reasons why I believe this bill should be passed. The first is that many firms today pay women less than they do men for doing exactly the same type of work. For example, in our retail marketing a delivery boy gets more money than a girl at the cash register who keeps punching the keys all day long. That is rather unfortunate, in my opinion, because she probably has much more responsibility, handling thousands of dollars during a month, than the delivery boy who delivers a few dollars' worth of groceries.
In the civil service we know there is no discrimination whatsoever. We recognize that men and women are equal. As regards the teaching profession, the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) indicated that women are just as capable as men in that particular profession. I would go so far as to say that in many instances they have proved far superior to men in the teaching profession.
Certain other industries have recognized that women are just as capable as men, and do just as good a job. There is no sound reason, as far as I can see, for not giving women equal pay. The minister said he had received no recommendations in favour of this legislation. I wonder if he has had representations to the effect that this legislation should not be put into effect, or if anyone has come to the government and said, "Please pass this bill but with the provision that women should be paid less than men."
Long ago Mrs. Pankhurst recognized the need to give women the vote. Long ago we recognized that they were capable of exercising that vote, and I am quite sure each of the men here feel that women were probably responsible for putting them in the position they now occupy.

Women have proved their superiority in many fields. We do not find very many men acting as telephone operators, and I do not know of a single instance where a man is employed punching a cash register in the supermarkets we have in the city, or in any other city I have been in. I know the girl at the cash register probably enhances the attractiveness of the store.


An hon. Member:: Hear, hear.


Frederick George Hahn: An hon. member says, "hear, hear". Possibly the reason she is employed as a cash register girl, if I may coin the phrase, is that she is most capable of punching the keys and can do it more rapidly than a man. In a case like that we should recognize that a girl should be paid the same as a man, if a man were employed to do that type of work.
The unions a long time ago advocated this sort of legislation, and have long recognized its value. It is quite obvious that if women were not as capable as men they would not be employed. Women have proved their worth and ability during the course of two world wars. During those wars thousands of women in this country were employed in industry, and I would go so far as to say that if women had not been there we probably would have lost those wars. It was only through their efforts that the boys in the front lines were given the supplies they so badly needed.
Industry should repay women for keeping the front lines supplied, and the best way of doing that is to pay them their dollar's worth if they are capable of doing the job as well as a man.
There is one other reason why I am so particularly happy to support this measure. That is because it adopts a great Social Credit principle. That principle is that the way to make the poor richer is to raise the level of their wages to that of the higher paid workers. We do not advocate taking from the rich and giving to the poor. We believe wages should be raised to the point where they are on a level with the wages received by the better paid workers. I have found, and I speak with some authority having a family of four girls, that it costs just as much to clothe and keep women as it does to keep men. It costs just as much to clothe them and to keep them as it does to clothe and to keep a man.


An hon. Member:: It costs more.


Frederick George Hahn: In most instances I think their headgear costs considerably more. I would therefore say that we should start a move so that they can at least find that they have sufficient remuneration to keep themselves
Industrial Status of Women looking proper-I would not, of course, for a moment suggest that they do not-without too great difficulty.
There is a certain value to this legislation. First, I would say that it affords protection to a man who is doing a job and doing it well. If the man is doing a job and doing it well, the moment that management finds it is having difficulty in making ends meet it would probably hire a woman who would be willing to work for less pay. The natural result of that-as I believe the lady member who introduced the bill indicated-would be that a man would lose his security of tenure in that particular position.
Then there is in this legislation a certain protection for the employer, as was earlier indicated, in so far as the employer would get his true worth out of his women employees and his labour costs would always remain more steady, especially as compared with his competitor who, if he has hired lady employees and is paying them less, would naturally enough be able to produce for less. Therefore the competition would be in a rather unequal ratio. By an equal pay act we would certainly be able to equalize our costs of labour and make our competitor become an honest competitor at least in so far as the price of labour is concerned.
The effect of this legislation, if it were to become an act, would be possibly threefold. The first effect might be illustrated in this way, if others felt as did a young lady I happened to meet in the corridor as I was coming down to the chamber. One of the young ladies asked me what I was getting prepared to speak on. I said, "The equal pay act". Her first reaction was, "Hurrah, that means the 40-hour week". Apparently the girls are not working the 40-hour week in this institution. While that feature is not embodied in the bill itself-I refer to the hours of labour-you can see that women are not opposed to it on that particular basis.
There would be a natural increase in unemployment among the women at first. The employers would naturally say this; "If I have to pay a woman the same price as I am going to pay a man, I am going to get a man for this job"; and out goes the woman. That may be the first repercussion. It would possibly be an unfortunate one. But if that male employee was not as capable of producing articles as was a woman or was not as capable of doing the job properly, he would naturally enough be replaced by a woman at a later time; and instead of our Minister of Labour having such a fine steady graph line for the employment of females over a period of years as compared with the one for men employees, he would have
3170	HOUSE OF
Industrial Status of Women fluctuations in the women's line of employment comparable with that for men at the present time.
Then there is one third possible effect. It will probably mean that the male employment situation will be much improved. We have had several representations, I believe, in the corridors by the various labour groups and nearly every one of them has strongly demanded more employment, that the government find employment for them; and in nearly every instance it was a case of employment for male employees. That situation would be naturally improved if the other argument that I proposed a moment ago were followed through. It would have a far-reaching effect upon our morale, I dare say. If the housewife did not prove herself to be as efficient as the male employee, she would find herself unemployed and would be back at home doing housework. Whether or not that is a desirable thing I am not going to discuss at this time. However, I will say this. If she does prove herself to be a better worker than the male, she will become the breadwinner for the family and we shall find the husband at home doing the chores.


Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, it gives me much pleasure to rise to support this bill. I want to congratulate the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) for seeing to it that this was the first bill that appeared on the order paper for discussion by members when we came here for this present session of parliament.
I am sorry that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) is unable or unwilling to support it.
I am happy, however, that we have not had many speakers on the government side who have offered opposition.
The Financial Times is about the only publication I have run across that seems to be opposed to this sort of legislation. In the Financial Times of March 12 I find an article under the name "Tempus". It reads a good deal like the writing by Austin Cross. I think the kindest thing I can say is that the writer must have had a deadline to meet and very little to write about when he used up valuable space with this material. He said:
. . . far too many secretaries have far too much to say and far too much to do with the .administration.
He was speaking about the women private secretaries in the government administration here. The article continues:
Yes, and put me down as saying that there are far too many women holding down jobs that should be held down by men . . .
Once upon a time, cabinet ministers here appointed a male secretary. Now far too many females have the jobs.
[Mr. Hahn.)

Then further on:
It is not that the women are not efficient, but they are, for the most part, of a good stenography level. This business of being a political secretary to the boss is too much for most of them. For the most part women have no political savvy.
Mr. Speaker, we have the misfortune to have in the House of Commons only four women out of a total membership of 265. I think that is a reflection on the women of Canada. I think it is unfortunate for parliament. The four women are making an outstanding contribution. In addition to the four who are here now, so far as I know we have had only five other women who have been in parliament since confederation. First, there was Miss Macphail, then Mrs. Black, Mrs. Nielsen, Mrs. Casselman and Mrs. Strum.
To come back to the comments made by the writer of this article-Tempus, whoever that is-may I say that I think the government is to be commended for choosing some women to hold down the responsible positions of private secretaries. My telephone directory informs me that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton), the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson), the Postmaster General (Mr. Cote) and the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) all have women private secretaries. I notice that there are not any women holding down jobs as deputy ministers. While waiting to speak I was looking through the estimates and I am now prompted to wonder whether the reason we get some women private secretaries is partly the result of the fact that the salaries offered for private secretaries are not high enough to attract males with the qualifications for doing that type of work.
I was under the impression that a private secretary had nearly as much responsibility as a deputy minister, but in some cases the salaries offered to private secretaries are about a third of those paid to deputy ministers. I think that the business of securing executive assistants probably has given cabinet ministers a chance to get on their staff people who are earning more than private secretaries. But I am sure that members of all political parties who have done business with the offices of the ministers would agree that no one should throw bricks at private secretaries merely because they are women. I think it is childish for anyone in the middle of the twentieth century to suggest that for the most part women have no political savvy. I think you might as well say that men have no political savvy.
I also think that to handicap individuals because they are women and make it impossible for them to occupy the most important

positions in the country because they are women just cannot be justified in this day and age.
I am glad that the hon. member tor Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) has examined the bills that have been passed in Ontario, British Columbia and Saskatchewan and has decided that the most attractive legislation has been passed in my province where the wording is equal pay "for similar or comparable work". That is the wording we find in the present bill. I do not want to be in the position of talking out the bill, but I could not let this opportunity pass without registering my protest against the sentiments expressed by "Tempus" and objecting to the opinions expressed by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) who apparently cannot support this legislation. I would hope that before very much longer the government will be prepared to go along with the governments of Ontario, Saskatchewan and British Columbia and make legislation such as has been proposed by the hon. member for Hamilton West one of the laws of this country.


Mrs. Ann Shipley (Timiskaming):: Mr. Speaker, I am of the opinion that we should avoid labour legislation of a compulsory nature that would interfere with the free rights of collective bargaining. However, I do not think this measure falls within that classification. Rather, this is a matter of the basic rights of human beings, be they male or female. I appreciate what the minister has said regarding the use, or perhaps I should say lack of use, that has been made of this type of legislation where it is in effect. The records show that very little use has been made of it in the two provinces where it has been in operation for any length of time. I understand that the British Columbia legislation was enacted only this year. In thirteen states of the United States there is a similar type of legislation, although it varies a little between states. Here again very little use has been made of it.
I discussed this matter with some of the people in the women's bureau in the United States and asked them what they thought the solution was. They felt that collective bargaining was the answer in those cases where women do belong to unions. But the unfortunate thing about women workers is that a great number of them-I do not know whether or not a majority-do not belong to unions. Therefore the type of legislation proposed in the bill now before us, under which the complaint is laid before the legislative body, seems to be about the only answer to the problem. But the legislation is simply not used where it is in effect.
19, 1954
Industrial Status of Women
When this bill was first mentioned in the press last December I was very much interested in reading an article in the Evening Citizen of December 4 headed "Equal Pay for Women Teachers". They were talking about Ottawa women teachers. The Ontario legislation providing equal pay for equal work for women has been in effect for something like two years and it is a very good act. It is very clear and simple. Yet Ottawa women teachers had asked the school board for equal pay and had been refused. The article goes on to point out that letters were sent to the board from the business and professional women's club and also from the university women's club begging the board to give the women teachers equal pay.
That is a very strange thing because I think I can say without fear of contradiction that school teachers in the province of Ontario at least-I am familiar with this province-have one of the strongest organizations that can be found anywhere. Just one teacher needed to bring this matter before the proper authorities of the provincial government, or a group of them, and yet they did not do so. I am not suggesting they were weak because they did not or that they should have done so. I do not know the circumstances. I can imagine many reasons why they did not.
The chairman of the school board, a lady, stated at the time that they simply could not afford it at this time. Perhaps the Ottawa lady teachers had lengthy discussions with the board and agreed with them or maybe they subsequently got what they wanted. I do not know, although I have watched the newspapers. But there was the situation. They had the law and they did not use it. I simply mention this to bear out some of the points raised by the minister.
An amusing thing happened at the time this article appeared in the paper. There was also a press report covering the presentation of the bill by the hon. member for Hamilton West. During that same week end I met several Ottawa people who said, "Won't it be nice when that bill goes through? School teachers in Ottawa will be able to get the same amount of money". It is a very strange thing, but it does not seem to matter how many times you try to tell people that the federal government cannot interfere with the rights of provincial governments with respect to labour disputes. Nor would the passing of this bill have any effect at all on the school teachers or, indeed, the majority of women workers in the province of Ontario. If the bill were passed a very limited number of women workers would benefit from it in any way. I was interested to hear what the

Industrial Status of Women minister said when he spoke on March 2. He said, as reported at page 2594 of Hansard:
. . . the four great national labour organizations have now made their annual presentations to the government and, although they have many women in their membership, have not recommended that such a bill be passed within the federal jurisdiction. I feel it is probably equally significant that the national council of women, in making their recommendations to the government, did not mention this matter.
The minister went on to say:
Before advocating federal legislation in this field I think I should like to know that a specific problem existed in the industries coming within federal jurisdiction, and that it was serious enough to warrant intervention. I would want to feel that the problem appeared capable of being remedied by law. So far I do not think there has been enough evidence of such a specific problem or of the fact that this is the remedy for it.
I am very happy to learn that we are to have a women's bureau. The minister has expressed himself as wanting to have all problems affecting women workers investigated. I am hoping that we will have a first-class women's bureau functioning very soon and that when the government does present legislation it will not only take care of this problem but will also lead the way in improving other working conditions of women.
I do not know how any legislation can take care of what I consider the most serious problem, and that is the lack of opportunity for women. There are not too many women who are suffering from a difference in pay, but there are a great many who are suffering from lack of opportunity. I feel that improvement in that direction can only be made by organized groups of employees.
I do not know how any government could help to take care of that situation.
I cannot dispute the statements made by the minister that the passing of this bill would mean very little to women employees under the jurisdiction of this government, because we not only recognize the principle but we practise it. Nevertheless, I do believe that the principle involved is of such basic importance to all women it should be written into the statutes of Canada. For that reason,
I must support the bill.


Walter Edward Harris: I know there are other hon. members who want to speak on this particular bill, but in a moment I am going to suggest that I be permitted to move the adjournment of the debate because we have come to an understanding on the bill we were discussing at five o'clock. If I could have the unanimous consent of the house to suspend this particular hour and revert to the previous proceedings, we might pass the one outstanding amendment and complete the bill before six o'clock.

Now, I would not make this request, Mr. Speaker, unless I was aware of the fact that there are other members who desire to take part in this debate, so that we would not complete it before six o'clock.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: Is
there unanimous consent to assume that the business of public and private bills hour has been completed?


Howard Charles Green: I should like to have it quite clear that the minister is not, in effect, killing this debate. He has mentioned that he would adjourn the debate and that is a method used by the government to kill the debate. It would be better to have an agreement that it will be called six o'clock and then the debate is not killed.


Walter Edward Harris: It does not make any difference to me how it is done. My only point was that someone would adjourn the debate in about five minutes in any event.


Mr. Hodgson:: Would it be all right for me to adjourn the debate?


Walter Edward Harris: Quite.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: If this debate is interrupted by six o'clock, there is no necessity to adjourn the debate. Is there unanimous consent that the business of public and private bills hour is to be concluded?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: May I call it six o'clock?


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: Is there unanimous consent that the business of public and private bills hour is to be concluded?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of Bill No. 377, to establish an account for the replacement of government property lost, destroyed or damaged through fire- Mr. Abbott-Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 1-Short title.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: Is it agreed that I report progress and ask leave to sit again later this day?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Clause stands.
Progress reported.
3i7a



EXPORT AND IMPORT PERMITS ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of Bill No. 374, to control export and import of strategic materials-Mr. Howe (Port Arthur)-Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 5-Import list of goods.
Edward Turney Applewhaite: I understand there is an amendment to this clause.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I have had no opportunity of consulting with the hon. member for Greenwood, Mr. Chairman, as I have been unable to locate him. I shall, therefore, assume the responsibility for stating that the hon. member will agree to withdraw the amendment he moved for the purpose of allowing another amendment to be moved which has been agreed upon between both sides.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Has the hon. member leave to withdraw his amendment?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Amendment withdrawn.


John Horace Dickey: Mr. Chairman, I am asking the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to move the following amendment:
That clause 5 of Bill No. 374 be amended by inserting a semicolon at the end of paragraph (c) and adding the following general words after paragraph (c): "and where any goods are included in the list for the purpose of ensuring supply or distribution of goods subject to allocation by intergovernmental arrangement or for the purpose of implementing an intergovernmental arrangement or commitment, a statement of the effect of or a summary of the arrangement or commitment, if it has not previously been laid before parliament shall be laid before parliament at the time the order of the governor in council including those goods in the list is laid before parliament pursuant to the Regulations Act."


Walter Edward Harris: I so move.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Clause as amended agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock. CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of Bill No. 377, to establish an account
Fire Losses Replacement Account for the replacement of government property lost, destroyed or damaged through fire-Mr. Abbott-Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On clause 1-Short title.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I think this bill is unique, in terms of legislation coming before the House of Commons, in that it seems to be pretty satisfactory to all concerned. I made only one suggestion for improving it when we were at the stage of second reading, and I am wondering whether any consideration has been given to it. It is not a matter of world-shaking importance, but it did seem to me that it might be desirable to provide that a report be made to parliament on the operations under the act. I even went to the trouble to draft an amendment that would add a clause 10. However, I am merely suggesting that now so that some thought might be given to it.


William Moore Benidickson: Mr. Chairman, I think: that at the second reading stage the two hon. members who spoke raised two very valuable points. The hon. member for Greenwood said: Is the government aware of the fire prevention advice that is offered by commercial insurers? On that point I would draw to his attention the fact that there is in the federal service a dominion fire commissioner, and I want to assure the hon. member that his remarks in that respect will most certainly be drawn to the attention of that official.
Then, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre was concerned about the question of reporting the charges to this fund. I, too, as a member of parliament, was concerned about this and satisfied myself that, hitherto, on the contingency item in the Department of Finance-I believe it is item 114 in this year's estimates and was item 115 in last year's estimates-there is in the public accounts very explicit detail as to the use of a contingency item of this kind. I feel I can satisfy my hon. friend that this would be reported similarly in subsequent years under this enactment.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Are those contingency items replaced by subsequent votes?


William Moore Benidickson: I think my hon. friend knows, from reading the act, that it is contemplated that a department suffering a loss such as we have in mind could, within the year in which the loss took place, replace that loss, if they did not require the funds for something else that year. On the other hand there is an obligation upon the minister of that department to put in his estimates an equivalent vote in the following year, if;

Fire Losses Replacement Account he has not been able to provide the funds for the fire loss in the year in which it occurred.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps I did not make my question clear. The parliamentary assistant was referring to the practice with respect to contingency items that are included in the estimates, and said that there is a full report on expenditures under those items in the annual report known as the public accounts.


William Moore Benidickson: Probably I should have said that I can assure the hon. member there will be an equivalent explanation in the public accounts for any expenditures from this fund.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I seem to be having trouble to make my point clear. It seems to me this account is different from the contingency items, in that it has to be kept up to scratch. Whatever money is paid out of this $5 million must be replaced. And, because it is different from the contingency items, to that extent it did occur to me that there was a justification for requiring a report on the administration of the act.
I shall read what I have before me by way of a suggestion, but I will not offer it as an amendment until later. It was going to be my suggestion that the following amendment be considered by the government:
That Bill No. 377 be amended by adding thereto, immediately after clause 9, the following marginal note and clause:
"Report to parliament:
10. The Minister of Finance shall, as soon as possible after the end of each fiscal year, lay before parliament a report on the administration of this act during the preceding fiscal year".


William Moore Benidickson: I can appreciate the hon. member's point. I think in our private activities as members of parliament we have the same objective in mind. I must say however that when I looked at the explanation in the public accounts of the expenditures under, we will say, contingency vote No. 115 of last year, I felt members of parliament would be better satisfied with that type of reporting in use for that contingency item than would be possible under the suggestion of my hon. friend.
In my official duties I have had occasion to table a statement that certain amounts have been spent and certain things have been done because of some requirement that this should be tabled say fifteen days after parliament is opened, or something of that nature. But I think most members of parliament are more likely to be satisfied with an explanation for this type of expenditure in the public accounts. I can assure my hon. friend it will be explained as well in the public accounts in subsequent years just as the contingent vote has been explained in


the past with respect to the fund of $1 million for contingencies in the Department of Finance.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The only comment I would make is that I think I keep as well abreast of what is going on around here as the average member, and I have not yet run across the item to which the hon. member is referring. I would be glad if he would tell me on what page of last year's public accounts I can find it.


William Moore Benidickson: I do not have the public accounts in front of me at the moment. However, I have checked them. I believe the item last year was No. 115; and if my hon. friend will refer to the estimates for this year he will find it is item No. 114 in the estimates for the Department of Finance. But I can assure him that the net expenditure was explained in detail in the public accounts of last year.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Shall the clause carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to ask for just a little further information about this question of mine this afternoon, what I called expert advice on the matter of fire avoidance. As I understood it, the parliamentary assistant said that there was a dominion fire commissioner-is that the proper phrase? May we have a little further information as to the set-up and the scope of his department, if he has one, and of the nature of his duties?


William Moore Benidickson: It has been principally a matter of collating information in respect of crown fire losses. I told the hon. member that I felt his remarks this afternoon were pertinent to the desirability of assuring for crown purposes that all the best information available for the prevention of loss by fire would be drawn to the attention of that official, and I said that I would commend the hon. member's remarks to the commissioner.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 9 inclusive agreed to.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Before you move on, although I shall not take the time of the committee to dispute the explanations offered by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance, it does seem to me the nature of this bill is such that an annual report to parliament would be desirable. It is up to the government whether or not it will be accepted, but to achieve that purpose I move:
That Bill No. 377 be amended by adding thereto, immediately after clause 9, the following marginal note and clause:
"Report to parliament.
10. The Minister of Finance shall, as soon as possible after the end of each fiscal year, lay before parliament a report on the administration of this act during the preceding fiscal year."


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Shall the amendment carry?


Walter Edward Harris: No.
Amendment negatived.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):: When shall the bill be read a third time?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Next sitting of the house.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaile):: Next sitting.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS

[Stage Direction]
210. Departmental administration, $470,422.
George Prudham: Before we deal with the items of the estimates I should like to put on record a few statistics and a general review of the mineral industry in Canada. I shall do this rather fully because our "summary of activities", the report distributed by the department to members of parliament each year, is not yet available from the printers.
This house has listened for many days this session to the disciples of blue ruin, predicting a depressing future for this country, growing unemployment and general decline. Mr. Chairman, we in Canada need never look back if we rise to the challenge of applying the great sources of energy we possess to the development of our national industrial structure. Nowhere else in the world today do 15 million people in one nation possess the heritage that is the lot of the Canadian people.
Not only does this nation have a remarkable heritage of mineral wealth but it also has proven sources of energy supply required to develop our natural resources. Our oil, natural gas, coal and electricity and in coming years perhaps atomic energy, are the keys to the unlocking of our great storehouse of minerals and our natural resources generally. One task facing us today is to develop these sources of energy and their distribution to areas of Canada where the energy can be most effectively used.
Mining in Canada in 1953 gave every evidence of a flourishing industry. Despite lower base metal prices, and labour disputes in two of the country's biggest camps, a new
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys high of $1,331 million was recorded in the value of mineral output, an increase of $46 million over 1952 and almost three times that of a decade ago. Over 128,500 men were employed in mines and quarries in 1953 at wages and salaries totalling $435 million.
Crude petroleum with an output valued at $198 million became Canada's No. 1 mineral, replacing gold which, after 25 years as the leading mineral, dropped to fourth place with a production valued at $139 million. Nickel at $161 million was second and copper at $151 million was third.
The sharp decline in lead and zinc prices brought about the closing down of several marginal producers particularly in British Columbia, and a substantial cutback in the production of zinc by Canada's largest producer.
As Canada is the leading exporter of the principal non-ferrous base metals much depends upon the export market particularly in United States. During the past year the question of tariffs on imports of base metals into United States has been widely discussed in that country. Canada has participated in some of these discussions, and it is hoped that a decision favourable to our base metal industry will be arrived at soon.
The outstanding feature of the year in the Canadian mineral industry, however, was the intensive and widespread exploratory and development activity that was carried out in the territories and in every province except Prince Edward Island. This activity resulted in, among other things, the bringing in of such new mines as the Eldorado Mining and Refining ace-fay uranium property in the Beaverlodge area of northern Saskatchewan, the Lynn Lake nickel-copper property in northern Manitoba, the Cassiar asbestos property in northern British Columbia and a copper-gold property in the Chibougamau area of Quebec, the first producer in that area. Much progress was made in the several large-scale projects under way such as that of Quebec-Labrador iron ore field into which the 360-mile railway has been virtually completed and from which ore is expected to be shipped by late summer, and at the Gaspe copper deposits which are to be brought in late this year.
An idea of the intensity of exploration, which proved greater in 1953 than in any other year in the history of Canadian mining, may be had from the preliminary estimate of over 130,000 claims staked during the year. This is a 216 per cent increase over 1952. The outstanding example was in New Brunswick, the scene of the Bathurst find, where some 41,000 claims were staked in 1953 compared with only 1,600 in 1952.
3176	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Oil, natural gas, iron ore and uranium proved to be the major newsmakers in 1953. Oil production rose to 81 million barrels, compared with 61 million barrels in 1952. The industry spent some $365 million in the search for oil and discovered light crude oil in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and new major fields in Alberta.
The development of the petroleum and natural gas resources in western Canada in the last seven years has been so spectacular that they could not have been foreseen by even the most optimistic enthusiast. The initial stages caught the attention of the public and made headlines in the press, so that it seemed to many that suddenly, without preparation, great resources had been uncovered. This is not so. Back of these discoveries are years of patient toil on the part of many scientists and engineers. Through the years they have provided the fundamental knowledge on which the recent development is based.
The land subdivision of the early settlement years, done by the dominion land surveyors, together with the precise level and triangulation surveys of the geodetic survey, were the foundation in western Canada for the base maps formerly prepared under the department of the interior of the federal government, then under the geological survey, and now under the surveys and mapping branch of mines and technical surveys. Without adequate maps no resource development is possible in a systematic manner because each base map becomes the working tool of the geologists and geophysicists, under whose direction and guidance most exploratory programs are planned and carried out.
The foundations in the preparatory work for the successful development of petroleum and natural gas were laid by geologists of the geological survey of Canada. The names of Dawson, McConnell, Dowling and many others are famous in the interpretation of the geological features of western Canada. The reports of these men-the great geological pioneers of the plains, foothills and mountains-are still in great demand because of their clear exposition of the regional geological features based on their accurate observations.
Since about the beginning of this century the geological survey of Canada has each year had several parties in western Canada mapping geological features. The younger men of today on our staff are performing work just as important as the pioneers of yesterday, even though it is mostly of a more detailed nature. There now is an exceedingly


large amount of new information made available daily from the drilling of wells. The collection of this is a tremendous task for which we have a small staff in our Calgary office who, even though they cannot hope to keep pace in the complete correlation of all the data, are assisting in the development by making it available for the use of other geologists in the employ of the various oil companies.
It would be difficult to assess the value of this work. But certainly the combined efforts, not only of those in private enterprise, but also those in the employ of the various provincial governments of western Canada, as well as the federal government, are such that in relation to oil and gas discoveries the major problems have now suddenly become those of marketing, because of the great volume of riches that has been so rapidly revealed.
To summarize briefly the more recent developments is almost impossible because of the magnitude and significance of the results. For a time in the early part of 1953, it appeared that there would be a slackening in the discovery rate, but by the end of the year some really remarkable discoveries had been made. Among these may be cited the Roselea field in Manitoba, the Smiley field in Saskatchewan, and the Pembina and Sturgeon Lake fields in Alberta. New gas developments in northeast British Columbia assure more than adequate reserves for the West-coast Transmission line now planned to Vancouver and the Pacific northwest united states.
Of all the fields, Pembina is beyond doubt the largest, and recent estimates have placed the reserves at 800 million to 950 million barrels in this one field alone, with a possibility that the number of wells that ultimately will be drilled on 80 acre spacing will be equal in number to the 4,600 presently producing oil wells in the whole of Alberta. Recently in one week alone there were seven new discoveries of oil and gas in western Canada of which two were in Manitoba, one in Saskatchewan, three in Alberta, and one in British Columbia.
Although it is too early to assess the complete value of these, the one in Saskatchewan in the Estevan area is of very great importance in that the well yielded not only large volumes of gas but, in addition, a high volume of light crude oil. One of the Alberta discoveries in the area west and north of Didsbury also seems to be highly important, showing a thick porous section in the Missis-sippian from which the oil and gas in Turner valley was produced.

As far as the gas reserves are concerned, in the last year these have been increasing at an unprecedented rate and there is so much now beyond what Alberta can use in the next 30 years that there appears little doubt adequate reserves will be provided for the Trans-Canada gas line by the Alberta petroleum and natural gas conservation board.
As is well known, oil pipe lines have been built both east and west from Alberta. There is the Interprovincial pipe line, first built to Superior, Wisconsin, at the head of the great lakes, and last summer extended as a 30-inch line capable of carrying 300,000 barrels a day to Sarnia in southwestern Ontario. Then there is the Trans Mountain pipe line, built from Edmonton to Vancouver, which will be extended to supply refineries in the state of Washington. If present plans for gas pipe lines are fulfilled, as seems now probable, the next two or three years should witness a very large pipe line building program, with gas eventually moving eastward from southern Alberta to supply central Canada, and gas moving from the Peace river area to supply Vancouver and the Pacific coast area of United States.
I wish now, Mr. Chairman, to say something on the activities of the metal mining industry.
Iron ore production showed an increase of over one million short tons over 1952 to a total of 6,501,000 tons as a result of the expansion under way at properties in northwestern Ontario, Newfoundland and British Columbia. The steady growth of the industry in these provinces, and particularly in northwestern Ontario, is expected to raise production this year to well over the seven million ton mark. This is without the addition of output from the Knob Lake iron ore field in Quebec-Labrador and the Marmora property in southeastern Ontario, both of which are expected to enter production later this year.
Two areas shared the spotlight in the search for and development of uranium properties. The Beaverlodge area of northern Saskatchewan proved a hive of activity with several companies carrying out pre-production development work on their properties. Feverish staking in the district of Algoma in northern Ontario followed a uranium strike near Blind River, about halfway between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie, and thousands of claims were staked during the latter half of 1953, and diamond drilling and surface development work is under way.
A huge development program involving hundreds of millions of dollars is now under way to expand nickel-producing facilities in the Sudbury area from which comes 85 per cent of the world output of nickel. In
19, 1954	3177
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys addition to the expansion under way by the two major producers, three new companies entered production in the area in 1953. Output increased 6-8 million pounds over 1952 to a total of 287-9 million pounds, and this is expected to reach 320 million pounds this year. This will include production from the Lynn Lake nickel-copper mine in northern Manitoba.
These are only a few of the highlights of Canadian mining in 1953 but they are indicative of an industry that is rapidly going places. Such growth, as is to be expected, has been attended by many and varied problems in mining and metallurgy, which in turn have led to considerable increase in the demands made upon the services available in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. These services range from topographical and geological surveys to metallurgical assistance in the extraction of metals and minerals from ores, and they include research into the preparation, bene-ficiation and utilization of the products of the Canadian mining and metal industries.
By steadily expanding its services the department is making every effort to keep pace with the increasingly heavy demands made upon it by a rapidly growing industry. As a consequence, it has been necessary to plan for new laboratory construction; and we hope that construction will start soon. This includes a building that will provide accommodation for mines branch research work on uranium ores and minerals, for its chemical laboratories and for offices for its administrative staff. Also a new building is needed in which to house the geological survey. The construction of a geophysical laboratory will shortly be started to provide space for three divisions of the dominion observatory.
The department comprises five branches: the surveys and mapping branch, the geological survey of Canada, the mines branch, the dominion observatories and the geographical branch.
The surveys and mapping branch produces the maps, aeronautical charts and hydrographic charts necessary for the development and administration of the country and for its defence. The continuing high rate of natural resources development, with no slackening in defence requirements, caused a strong demand for new maps and charts. Including geological maps, almost one million maps and charts were distributed during 1953.
The surveys and mapping branch placed 70 parties in the field in 1953 to carry out geodetic, topographic and legal surveys work. Approximately the same number will be
3178	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys sent into the field in 1954. In addition to the regular parties, winter field parties are being used to excellent advantage as they can penetrate into areas which are practically inaccessible during any other season of the year.
In co-operation with the Royal Canadian Air Force, the national research council and the meteorological service of the Department of Transport, the branch continued to cover the far north with shoran trilateration, a new electronic method of measuring long distances on the earth's surface, which permits the extension of control into remote areas much more speedily than by conventional methods of triangulation. Since 1948 when this method was first put into use, the sparsely settled area south of the Arctic archipelago, with the exception of Yukon, has been fairly well covered with shoran trilateration.
It is hoped that this method can be extended, in the coming years, with the assistance of the R.C.A.F., to bridge across from the mainland to cover the southern part of the Arctic archipelago. Some triangulation and precise levelling has been and will continue to be done by the geodetic survey for the St. Lawrence seaway project, and triangulation work will include the area of the Hamilton river on the coast of Labrador.
Using helicopters the topographic survey did topographical mapping over 20,740 square miles of territory in northern Quebec-Labrador in the important mineralized region between Knob Lake and Fort Chimo, about 20 miles south of Ungava bay. Two other helicopter-supported operations are planned for next summer. One of these will operate in the Hamilton river watershed and will assist in providing control data for assessment of power development possibilities along that river and particularly at Grand falls.
A little more work by the topographic survey this coming summer in Newfoundland will complete the horizontal and vertical controls needed to map the province. It is hoped that the island portion of Newfoundland will be fully mapped at the one-mile scale within the next two or three years.
The house will be asked to vote the sum of $1,500,000 for the construction of a new hydrographic ship to ply in northern waters. A great amount of work remains to be done to chart our Arctic seas. As a matter of fact, it will go on for perhaps a hundred years. New and forthcoming mining developments in northern Canada require the charting of new sea routes and of approaches to potential


harbour sites, particularly in Ungava bay, where vast reserves of iron ore have been discovered.
The geological survey of Canada investigates and studies the geology of Canada, thereby assisting in the search for and development of mineral deposits. It also studies ground water supplies, makes soil surveys and investigates bedrock conditions relative to construction project problems. In 1953 it had 79 parties in the field and it expects to send probably 87 parties into the field in 1954.
The possibility that oil may exist in commercial quantities in the northwestern Arctic islands came to light as a result of the geological survey's field work in 1953 on a prominent circular structure on Ellef Ringnes island. Air photographs have revealed several such structures on these islands. These structures appear to be similar to the salt domes in the oil fields of Texas and Louisiana, many of which have formed traps for highly productive oil pools.
In 1954, it is proposed to undertake an airborne geological reconnaissance survey in the area lying west of Hudson bay and east of Great Slave lake. This survey is identified as "Operation Baker" and is an extension of "Operation Keewatin" which was conducted in the same general area in 1952. Plans are being made for another extension- "Operation Thelon" for 1955. The survey thus hopes to map the entire area between latitudes 60 and 65 and between Hudson bay and Great Slave lake by the end of 1955.
The office maintained by the geological survey of Canada in Calgary, Alberta, gave special attention to the study of oil and gas structures in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. In its office at Sydney, Nova Scotia, the survey continued to make a microscopic study of coal particularly for correlation of coal seams. These two offices in Calgary and Sydney will continue their work throughout the coming fiscal year; also the offices in Vancouver and Yellowknife will continue to serve the public. The intensive interest in prospecting for uranium resulted in the radiometric assay of approximately 1,200 samples by the radioactivity resources division of the geological survey. The division revised and published a second edition of 5,000 copies of the handbook, "Prospecting for Uranium in Canada". It is expected that this division will be even busier in the coming year with the intensified search for and discovery of uranium deposits.
An airborne aeromagnetic survey will be conducted next summer in that region north of Beaverlodge and extending into the North-

west Territories, in the hope of delimiting the northward extent of the Beaverlodge uranium-bearing geological formations.
The activities of our mines branch are directly concerned with the technological problems of the mining and metal industry and the branch maintains well equipped laboratories for tests, investigative work and research on these problems in the buildings down on Booth street. If any hon. members have the spare time, we would be very pleased to have them go down there and see what is being done.
The following are some of the highlights of mines branch activities during 1953. Forty-four reports were made to organizations submitting bulk ore samples for testing. Those on the treatment of ores from new properties included, when requested, recommendations for the design of flow sheets for the milling plants. A number of shipments were received from operating properties, and reports on these included recommendations for improving the treatment of the ores and reducing operating costs. Work in 1954 will include studies on the treatment of the complex New Brunswick ores of the Bathurst area.
Research was continued with encouraging results on the baffling problem of producing titanium metal of high purity at costs which would permit its wider use in industry. The development of an efficient economic process would mean that the large deposits of ilme-nite at Allard Lake in Quebec would become an important source of the metal. This research will be continued in 1954.


Mr. Blackmore:: I wonder whether the minister would read a little more slowly. It is rather difficult for us to follow what he is saying.


George Prudham: The intensive development of Canada's iron ore deposits brought many requests for assistance, including test work on sintering and other beneficiating processes to produce marketable products.
There was a heavy demand for investigations into the metallurgical treatment of radioactive ores. Assistance included laboratory work on mineral samples to provide preliminary information on the concentration and extraction of uranium, and comprehensive investigations including pilot plant operations to work out in detail the treatment suited to particular ores.
Moneys have been provided in the public works estimates for the construction of a building to house the radioactivity division of the mines branch. With a greater number of properties nearing the stage of production the load of work on this division to investigate the treatment of ores is constantly increasing.
19, 1954	3179
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Branch engineers have and will continue to carry out analyses, studies and tests of samples of kyanite from the Mattawa area in northern Ontario, and milling investigations on the kyanite from deposits near Sudbury, Ontario, and from the Big Bend area of the Columbia river, British Columbia. The eventual development of these deposits would make Canada independent of present foreign sources and provide the basis of new and greatly expanded refractory and ceramic industries in Canada.
Many projects are conducted by the mines branch at the request of National Defence and for the defence research board: high temperature alloys, special steels for aircraft use, welding techniques, radiographic methods for inspection of castings and many others. Initiated as defence projects, they soon become invaluable in their application to civilian use and thus two purposes are served.
As I announced earlier, commendable progress has been made in the Mordell project where, in association with McGill University, a gas turbine has been built to use low-grade coal as a fuel. This turbine would find application in locomotives and as a small stationary power plant. Test runs have proven successful to date and experimental and performance tests will continue to be made for a year or two yet, until its full characteristics have been established and every avenue explored for possible improvement to its design and functioning. A sum of $100,000 is included in the estimates this year. We expect to ask for another $100,000 next year to complete the experimental and development work.
The work of the dominion observatories is organized in two main centres, the dominion observatory at Ottawa and the dominion astrophysical observatory at Victoria, British Columbia. The centre at Ottawa does research in astronomy and geophysics, the fields covered being positional astronomy, stellar physics, terrestrial magnetism, gravity and seismology. The work at Victoria is devoted mainly to research in astrophysics and to a small but increasingly important extent in seismology.
Since the installation in 1951 of a photographic telescope for the more accurate determination of time by astronomical methods, the dominion observatory has been emphasizing the more effective distribution of time throughout the country by radio methods. A new and more powerful transmitter was installed in 1953 for the shortwave radio transmission of time signals. During the new fiscal year it is intended further to improve the radio service by the installation of so-called speaking clocks
3180	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys which will broadcast a voice announcement of the time each minute throughout the 24 hours of the day.
Studies of the upper atmosphere of the earth by spectroscopic methods and by the observation of meteors will be continued during the present year. The two powerful photographic telescopes at Meanook and Newbrook, Alberta, which have been established for the photographic triangulation of meteors, are expected to be in routine operation throughout the year. Their purpose is to determine the velocities of meteors entering the earth's atmosphere and the extent to which these velocities are diminished by friction with the air at heights of 60 miles above the earth.
Another project of the observatory is the study of craters found on the earth's surface of form very similar to those appearing on the moon. Two of these have recently been found in Canada, one at Brent, Ontario and one in northern Ungava in Quebec. These newly discovered craters are from two to three miles in diameter and it is generally believed that they are due to the impact of large meteorites. Since the Canadian shield is an area which has remained geologically undisturbed for a long time it may reasonably be expected that it will contain many similar formations. Several circular features from a few miles to some tens of miles in diameter have been noted on maps and aerial photographs which may be due to the same cause. One such feature located in northern Quebec will be intensively studied by gravity, seismic and magnetic methods during the coming year.
In the past the magnetic mapping of Canada for navigation purposes and the provision of magnetic maps of general character on which detailed mineral exploration surveys could be based have been handicapped by the great size of the country, the inaccessibility of the Arctic areas and the lack of any equipment capable of making observations over the ocean. Many of these difficulties have been overcome by the completion in 1953 of a gyro-stabilized magnetometer designed to give both the direction and the strength of the magnetic field from an aircraft. During the present year it is proposed to use this instrument, the first gyro-stabilized magnetometer to be built in any country, to map the ocean approaches to eastern Canada, together with portions of the eastern Arctic and possibly also to make a flight to England to study the character of the magnetic field over the North Atlantic.
In the field of seismology, the Canadian network of 10 seismic stations will be maintained. Further attention will be given to


the question of earthquake hazards in the new industrial regions of the west coast. The question of the character of the earth's crust under the Canadian shield will be studied with new and more powerful equipment. In order to study rock layers of several miles in thickness by explosion methods the older procedure of having an array of seismometers connected to a common recorder by wires has proved inadequate. New equipment now under construction will make possible an array of detecting instruments 20 to 30 miles in length transmitting seismic impulses to a central recorder by shortwave radio. This instrument was developed by one of our own departmental scientists.
The geographical branch makes regional and systematic studies of Canadian geography. These studies range from physical geographic studies of far northern regions to land use surveys and to urban surveys for civil defence. The branch played a major role in a study of northeast Newfoundland small coastal settlements and the possibility of grouping these many small settlements into fewer and larger units. This study will extend into the year 1954-55.
The branch continued to map ice conditions in portions of the gulf of St. Lawrence, in Hamilton inlet on the cost of Labrador, and in Ungava bay and Hudson strait, where there is need for information on the exact geographical limits of ice-free water during the critical break-up in the gulf of St. Lawrence. A similar report, with maps, was issued to use at a special conference of the iron mining and shipping companies interested in access to the recently discovered iron ore deposits west of Ungava bay.
Urban surveys were conducted at Winnipeg, Sault Ste. Marie and Montreal at the request of the civil defence division, Department of National Health and Welfare. Similar surveys have already been made in Toronto, Hamilton, London, Windsor, Saint John, and Halifax. More of these surveys will continue next summer in Montreal, Winnipeg and Halifax. Work continues on the atlas of Canada and it is expected to be completed in 1955.
I have endeavoured, Mr. Chairman, to highlight certain projects and activities of the department. I know that the members of the house will find much of this information useful, and I am sure that they will wish further information when we get to the individual items. I know that everyone shares my satisfaction in the prosperity which the mineral industry is undergoing, and will join with me in a word of praise to the rugged

Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
individualists who are, through their initiative and skill and hard work, making these developments possible. I have not made any mention of the coal industry. I would prefer if the debate on the coal industry and the problems related to it could be delayed until the coal board estimates are before the house, which I hope will be within a few weeks.


Agar Rodney Adamson: After listening to the detailed report by the minister, Mr. Chairman, and, unfortunately, having read only the report for the previous year, I believe one could say to one's self, "lucky, lucky Canadians." I have practised my profession practically all over the world, with the exception of east Asia. When the minister of mines in any country can bring down a report of such developments as we have seen take place in the short span of one year, that country is indeed fortunate.
I realize that possibly it is wise in a political discussion to try to prove that we are perhaps not as fortunate as we are. In so far as this department is concerned, I disagree with that philosophy. Without question, we in Canada are the luckiest people in the world so far as our natural resources are concerned. I hope that no member in this house and I hope that no Canadian, will ever forget that, because upon that depends our essential prosperity.
The next point I wish to mention with regard to this department is that I want to pay tribute to the working force of the department, the engineers, the geologists, the metallurgists and the scientists generally who have made this development possible. A lot of people seem to think that you go out and discover oil wells or ore bodies or when you have discovered the oil well or the ore body, the method of milling and refining or separating the metal from the rock is a comparatively simple matter. May I say that without the skilled help of the technical people in this department, a great deal of this amazing development would have been quite impossible.
I would say that the majority of these devoted scientists who are working for Canada are working for a monetary return well below that which they could demand in private industry. I am not going into detail or to mention any names, but on frequent occasions I have known people who have been offered by private industry a multiple of the salary they were getting with the department, but who have refused it and remained in the service of Canada. This is something for which we and the Canadian
people must at all times be extremely grateful. Without these devoted servants, a great deal of this development would not be possible.
I should like now to mention the working force in the industry. While the minister was reading his report, I made a little calculation. The working force in the mineral industry in Canada amounts to 128,500. It is generally estimated that for every man working in the mineral industry there are four others dependent on that industry. The mineral industry is, therefore, responsible for no less than 514,000 other jobs, directly. I believe the department of mines in the United States has a further figure showing that those indirectly dependent upon the minerals industry are at a ratio of eleven to one. So that no less than approximately 1,400,000 of the total working force in Canada are indirectly responsible to the mineral industry. The wages paid to those men amounted to $435 million, which works out to an average annual wage of no less than $3,400-figuring to the closest hundred dollars.
I mention this because here is an industry in which those engaged in it are, in the majority of cases, receiving annual wages away above the normal in Canada. That is something I suggest we should take into consideration. Some of these people may be directors or engineers, but their number would be small compared with the remaining workers. So that the figure of $3,400 is, I think, a reasonably accurate one.
The other day, in discussing the housing legislation, we were worried because so many of the working force in Canada are receiving wages less than the minimum required to participate in the benefits of that legislation. Here we are discussing an industry the average wage in which is at least $500 above the minimum required to participate in the legislation passed last week. I mention that only to indicate what the industry means to Canada.
I come to my next point which, I suggest, is also significant. I refer to the cost of the department expressed as a percentage of the value of total mineral production. That total mineral production last year of $1,331 million was up $46 million from the previous year which, in turn, was up $40 million from the year preceding. The cost of the department, less $15 million for the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, and the coal board which cannot be charged legitimately as an expense against the department, amounted to $16 -6 million. In other words, in the last year the ratio of the cost of the department to the value of total mineral production was 1-23 per cent.
3182	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
I mention that figure merely to emphasize the efficient work being done by the engineers and technicians in the department. The cost of survey work, the work of the mines branch, mapping and geological work came to something less than 1J per cent of the value of total production last year, which I stated earlier as about one and a third billions of dollars.
At this point I would say that while I have not the figures for the United Kingdom before me the last year for which I saw those figures indicated that the expenditures by the United Kingdom on geological survey was greater than those in Canada for the same purpose. These figures are not absolutely comparable, because they include some things that our figures do not include, and there are some discrepancies. Yet, the United Kingdom which, we consider, is geologically poor, a country the geological formations of which are chiefly concerned with coal and iron, including a comparatively small amount of other minerals, considers the work of geological survey so important that their expenditures for that purpose are greater than ours in Canada.
If our production increases at the same rate in the next decade-and I think there is every reason to believe it will, unless world markets are completely destroyed- Canadian mineral production will exceed $4 billion a year, an amount considerably greater than the gross national product before the war. I mention this only to show the extraordinary growth taking place in this country. It is something that challenges the imagination of every Canadian. We have to stop and think about it to realize what it means to us in Canada, what it means in the matter of increased population, what it means in connection with finding new capital, and what it demands in the way of improving our methods of extraction and of discovery, and all those other technical procedures with which the mines branch has to deal. So much for that phase of the matter.
I should like now to deal with one or two of the individual items of expenditure by some of the companies. According to its last report, the International Nickel Company has spent over $150 million in the last two years. According to the minister's statement, expenditures running to hundreds of millions of dollars are already under way, by the nickel industry as a whole. Thus we have one metal where hundreds of millions of dollars are being expended for its future development at the present time.
I ask any hon. member this question. The minister comes tonight with estimates for the expenditure of $27 million. If there was


a policy of nationalization of the mines in Canada, what would any elected assembly do if a minister of mines and technical surveys came down to the house and said: "I want hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for the development of nickel"? Why, no government under our method of accounting would dream of accepting such a statement; and yet, if we had nationalization of the mining industry, without the expenditure of those hundreds of millions of dollars, the industry could not prosper and increase the way it has been. I mention that just as an example to show the fallacy of any program of nationalization of the mining industry.
I shall give another example. I have not the figures in front of me of the amount that was spent last year, and the minister will correct me if I am wrong, but something like $320 million was spent in the exploration and development of petroleum products.


George Prudham: The amount was $1 million a day.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Thank you very much; $365 million for exploration and discoveries. Suppose a minister came to this house and said: "I want $1 million a day to go out and do some prospecting and drilling". What would any hon. member say; what sort of reception would he get? What reaction would the treasury board have to such a statement? Yet today private industry is risking and betting a million dollars a day in this one industry.
I give the committee these two examples of the fallacy of any program of nationalization of the mineral industry in Canada. It is a risk business. Enormous sums of money have to be spent to win the minerals. To say that you could come in with any finite sum and say, "We want, shall we say, $50 million to develop the Pembina field in the next year" is far-fetched. The Pembina field may require $100 million to $200 million to develop. Is that the sort of proposition that could be brought to the house? Is that the sort of proposition that the Minister of Finance could produce estimates for? I would not think so. That is an example of the fallacy of this policy of nationalization. Nothing has shown it so clearly as the statement the minister has given the committee tonight.
I want to deal very shortly with one other question. I have not the annual report for the present year; it is not printed, but for the past year I find this statement on page 8 regarding the petroleum industry:
Much of the gas occurs in close physical association with the oil and would be largely wasted if crude oil production were unduly increased.

What does that mean? It simply means that it is imperative to find a market as quickly as possible for natural gas. Unless we are going to waste and destroy a great national asset in the natural gas and burn it off at the wellhead in flares, which is a criminal thing to do, a start on the gas pipe lines must be made at the very earliest opportunity. That gas must be used. It must be used in the industries in Canada. It must be used not only in the industries in Canada but in the development of new industry, and it also must find a North American market where that is available after our own needs have been supplied.
Let me give you one example of what this may mean. In the last month or two a new deposit of base metals, silver, copper and possibly other metals has been discovered at Manitouwadge in northern Ontario. It is in an area where there is no fuel; it is in an area where the cost of fuel for smelting and refining purposes might be so great as to jeopardize the whole development of the project. Yet-and this is a very rough estimate-I have heard it said that if this new development fulfils promises, a market for no less than 10 billion cubic feet of gas will be established. A market for 10 billion cubic feet of gas is larger than the present consumption of the city of Toronto. This is probably not a really fair comparison because the city of Toronto is using artificial gas at the present time with a low thermal rating and very expensive, but still quite a lot of gas is used. In this one new development there is a potential market for a greater amount of gas than is being used in Toronto at the present time. I mention that not as a mine promoter, or anything of that kind, but as an example of the challenge we are facing in Canada today with development in this country. A year ago that was barren land. Today it is a potential market for 10 billion cubic feet of gas.
The next item I wish to come to is proper housing of the department in Ottawa. I sincerely hope that the geological survey will be properly housed in the near future in a building of its own. To stick it away in the museum, and house it all over the place the way it is, is nothing short of criminal.
I do not know whether the same is true today, but the mines department was at one time housed in 27 buildings in Ottawa. Indeed, the central registry was in fact the boy on a bicycle and if there was to be a file drawn he was alerted and went to the central registry where he picked up the file. Whether that is so today I do not know, but it certainly was the situation at one time.
19. 1954	3183
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
To try and run a department under these conditions is almost impossible and I hope the department will, in the shortest possible time, get itself properly housed, not only as far as laboratories generally are concerned, but also as regards ore dressing laboratories in particular, and all the other departments dealing with the mines. I hope the same will be done for the geological survey, and that it will be properly housed in a building of its own. I have expressed this hope for many, many years, and I now sincerely hope that, with the development now taking place, this matter will be dealt with without further delay.
I would also like to say a word about the development and refining of titanium. Titanium is a metal of enormous promise but the difficulties have not as yet been completely solved as regards a method of cheap extraction from the basic ore, ilmenite. The department has worked, I believe, for four years on this one problem, but if a solution is found the whole question of producing aircraft engines which will stand the terrific heat of the new supersonic planes will very largely be solved.
Each development ties in one with another. Work for the Department of National Defence proceeds and something of great commercial value is discovered as a byproduct. There again I would like to say that we on this side of the house have complained that the amount of research work being done in Canada is woefully inadequate. This one example of the refining and producing of titanium ore is an example of what I mean.
Coming now to the project regarding iron ore. In the not too distant future the deposit at Steep Rock will be producing in the nature of 15 million tons a year, which is over double the present production of iron ore in Canada. The challenge there, Mr. Chairman, is not only to the miners and the producers, but the challenge is also to find an expanded steel industry which will use a larger part of that ore than is being done at present. With this great potential of iron ore I feel that we must in every way possible encourage the steel industry to expand to meet the challenge of the natural resources of this country. I know a great expansion has taken place since the war. I know our major companies have expended many millions of dollars on new blast furnaces at Hamilton, the Soo, and elsewhere in Canada, but with the great possibilities of development now before us we must be prepared to look for a steel industry in Canada many times its present size. That is one of the subsidiary challenges arising out of the present situation.
3181	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have taken rather longer than I intended on this subject, but if I have done nothing else I sincerely hope that I have shown you, sir, and to hon. members who may not be interested in mining as much as I am, that today the greatest internal challenge we have in Canada is the development of our natural resources.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I want to take the opportunity to say a few words on the work of this most important department before this particular item is approved. I was very interested in the statement the minister read which was quite comprehensive and informative. It is the type of statement that one can possibly derive more from by rereading it, but personally I appreciate that he has made that statement to the house.
I was interested in the remarks of the hon. member for York West who has just resumed his seat. I would not for a moment profess to have his knowledge of the mining industry, but when the hon. member speaks he rather creates the atmosphere of the board room, of company directors discussing the development of the mining industry. Possibly, Mr. Chairman, you will excuse me if I create the atmosphere of the bunkhouse, the prospector's cabin, and the miner's wife who is a bit put out about unemployment and that sort of thing.
This, Mr. Chairman, is one of the most important departments of the government and I believe it is a department about which a good many hon. members in this house know very little. I always make a practice of reading the annual report of this department with great interest, because it is a department whose work is vital to the development of our natural resources. It is a department about which hon. members should be well informed so that they can in turn inform their constituents and people generally about the nature of the work being done.
That is the reason why, Mr. Chairman, I suggest again, as I did last year and the year before, that in my opinion the estimates of this department should be referred to the committee on mines, forests and waters, which has been in a sort of moribund condition for about, I believe, eight years.
I think it would be a good idea indeed to have these estimates referred to that committee, not solely for the purpose of finding out how the money is expended but in order to give to a good many of these excellent officials and people who are doing this work the opportunity to explain to a committee of


this house the details of the work they are undertaking. I think that procedure would be extremely helpful indeed.
I find other members who have little idea as to the excellent work being carried on by the various branches of this department. I have some knowledge of the excellent work that is being carried on because the miners in my constituency have often told me of the excellent service the department gives to those who want advice on the treatment of ores and things of that sort. If these estimates were referred to the committee, I think there would be given to the members of that committee an opportunity to hear evidence from the officials and to gather a great deal of useful information.
I think it is about time the committee on mines, forests and waters was put to work. Here we are in a period when our natural resources are being developed at their greatest rate in Canadian history, when there is the greatest interest in their development and also possibly the greatest interest in the conservation of natural resources; yet the very committee that should be giving consideration to these important questions, to my knowledge, has not sat for seven or eight years or maybe longer. I urge the minister to give consideration to having his estimates go before that committee so that we can gather some information about the work of the department. Let us utilize this committee.
Having made those few remarks in general, Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words about a matter that is of serious concern to a great number of my constituents, namely the closing of a good number of the base metal mines in the interior of British Columbia. When I was listening to the minister's statement I noticed that he made a reference to base metal mining, but it was a reference of only two or three sentences. It seemed to me that he rather skipped over that aspect of the question. While the general mining situation may be satisfactory, I am sure the minister knows, as do his officials, that for many of the small operators in certain sections of British Columbia a serious situation exists so far as base metal mining is concerned. I want to say a few words about that matter at this time.
I have lived in the interior of British Columbia for nearly fifty years and I know a great many of these people in the small mining communities. The closing down of these small mines affects the communities of Salmo, Kaslo, where the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra was born-and I am sure he knows all about the shut-down in Kaslo

and the surrounding district-Sandon, Silver-ton, New Denver, Slocan city, the Trout lake area and the Boundary country. There are large numbers of people seriously affected at this time because of the closing of most of the smaller base metal mines in this area.
As far back as I can remember, the history of base metal mining in the camps I have mentioned has been one of boom and slump. Ever since mining was commenced in the early 1890's in this area there has been a period of activity and employment, with money expended on roads by the provincial government and money expended on surveys by various corporations and individuals; a short period of activity and prosperity and then a shut-down. That has been the repeated history of these smaller base metal mines in the interior of British Columbia.
I have known a great many of these people throughout the years. I have known many of these old-time prospectors who, unfortunately, are passing out of the picture. The old-time prospector has not much opportunity as against the diamond drill and the large amounts of capital required to establish a mine nowadays.
I might tell you, Mr. Chairman, a story that comes to my mind. I know a chap named Jack Rady, an old prospector in the Lardeau country, one of those men who prospected for 50 years and made a few finds but who never became well off. I was wanting to go up the Duncan river 18 miles in order to visit six or eight chaps who were developing a small claim there. He was the only one who had an outboard motor powerful enough to go up the Duncan river at high water. As we were going up the river with some difficulty he said, "I do not know what I can do to help the C.C.F. but I certainly feel like helping them because I know the C.C.F. have always done their best for the prospectors and the small operators in the mining areas. I will tell you what I will do", he said. "There is not anybody in the Trout lake area who has an outboard motor powerful enough to go up the Duncan at this time of the year. There is not one of the other fellows in the other parties who can get through to these six chaps until the ballot is counted. That is the best that I will do." That is the spirit of these old-timers; and it is many of these people and their dependents who are suffering because of the decline in the base metal industry at this time.
I think the time has passed when governments can let communities and human beings suffer periodically as they have suffered in these communities without any action and without any planning. I have heard from
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys several groups in this connection. I have heard from the miners directly, the prospectors, and those interested in mining. I have heard from the miners' wives; and I can tell you that a miner's wife can, on occasion, become quite vocal when her husband is out of work for some extended period. I have heard from the business people in these small communities and I have heard from a good number of the small operators. In order to shorten my remarks this evening-and I do not want to extend them more than is necessary to give to the committee the picture in the base metal mining industry in the small mines in the interior of British Columbia- I am just going to quote from a brief that was sent to me by the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers. It is the statement and proposals adopted by the sixth Canadian convention of the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers for submission to the government of Canada. The minister was one of those who heard these representations. I just want to quote briefly from a paragraph in the brief entitled "Crisis in Base Metals" and which reads as follows:
So far the base metals crisis has developed mainly in lead and zinc. The fall in lead and zinc prices has been very heavy. The Canadian price of lead is now 12 cents a pound. 40 per cent below the high point in 1931. The price of zinc is 9i cents a pound, more than 50 per cent below the price at the end of 1951. Further declines must be expected.
The heavy fall in lead and zinc prices affected first the small and marginal mines with high production costs. Already no less than 22 mines in British Columbia alone have been forced to close down. This situation is made worse by the fact that there is only one smelter for lead and zinc in Canada, namely the smelter at Trail, B.C. on which the majority of mines depend for the smelting of their ore. Just when metal prices were falling this smelter chose to raise its smelting charges, thus tightening the squeeze on the smaller mines and helping to force some of them to close down.
Thousands of workers in our industry have been laid off. In the communities where mining is the only industry, it means there are no other jobs available, and that the merchants and farmers suffer too. In many mining communities the situation is as bad today as it was at the depth of the depression 20 years ago. The major lead-zinc producer in Canada, the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, is now also cutting down production; there have been large lay-offs at the smelter in Trail, while arrangements have been made in Kimberley between the company and the union to work short time so as to maintain maximum employment under the circumstances.
As already noted, the crisis in non-ferrous metals has until recently been limited to lead and zinc. But now it threatens to engulf copper as well.
The report goes on and explains this in greater detail. Then the union makes certain proposals. I might say that I was visited by some small operators as well who, in general, supported these proposals. The union suggests that there should be an increase in unemployment payments and that
3186	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys there is a necessity for the broadening of export markets overseas, particularly in the British commonwealth and Europe. It also proposes the building of a lead-zinc custom smelter in western Canada to free the small producers from dependence on the smelter at Trail for the processing of their ore.
I	am not going to take the time of the house to deal further with the brief. I mention this to bring the serious plight of the people engaged in small mine operations to the attention of the minister. In my opinion it is not good enough to go decade after decade and let this situation recur and recur without any government action to prevent it and without any attempt to plan. In my opinion the responsibility rests on the federal government and provincial government, and in our area there is a moral responsibility on the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company.
I know that the primary responsibility rests on the provincial government because natural resources come directly under its jurisdiction. I think it is up to the provincial government of British Columbia to give a lead in this direction and to do something to indicate to the federal government and to the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company that it is interested in getting all three groups together to do some planning to prevent these recurring slumps.
The federal government has some responsibility. It is responsible for trade policies. It has a great deal of effect with its taxation policies and so on. I do not know whether the minister has had the opportunity to meet the minister of mines of British Columbia, but I do urge that every co-operation be extended to the government of that province if they wish to work with the minister and with the large mining companies to see what can be done about this very important question.
The federal government can continue to render valuable technical aid to these small industries, but I emphasize again that it is no doubt the primary responsibility of the provincial government to give some leadership in seeking protection for these communities and the workers employed there. The Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company has a definite responsibility but I think you cannot blame the company so much if the government does not take action in the matter.
As I say, the company has a moral responsibility because it has a monopoly of the power production of the interior of British Columbia, has control of the greater portion of the base metal resources of that part of the province and has a monopoly in the


smelting industry. I know the company has been of great advantage to the interior of British Columbia, and I am of the opinion, if the provincial government would go ahead in this direction with the support of the federal government, that as a result of the co-operation of the two governments and the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company something could be done to improve conditions in the small base metal mines in the interior of British Columbia.
In reading this very interesting report I noticed that it says that company production was reduced because of a shortage of power. I want to read one paragraph on page 9 which is as follows:
The substantial increases in the tonnage outputs of lead and zinc over 1951 failed by a considerable margin to offset the steady decline in the prices of the two metals. Thus the combined value of output at $184,504,306 was $9,487,483 lower than in 1951. The price of lead decreased from 18-80 cents a pound at the commencement of the fiscal year to 13-25 at the end, and that of zinc from 19-30 to 11 cents. The decline in prices led to the closing of several marginal producers, mainly in British Columbia, principal source of Canadian lead and zinc. The situation in that province was further aggravated by a power shortage which forced the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada Limited to curtail its treatment of custom ores.
I get this information from the small operators and I presume it is correct. They tell me that the treatment charges of Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company in 1939 were $2 a ton. In 1948 they were $11 a ton and I am advised that they are now $40 a ton. I take these figures as given to me, but I cannot vouch for their accuracy. I am told by a number of the small operators that the increase in smelting costs alone is a great hardship. I am firmly of the opinion that if the provincial government would take the lead in this matter, supported by the federal government and in co-operation with the company, a number of these so-called marginal mines which are so close to being profitable could be operating today with some consideration on the part of the company and the co-operation of the two governments. Instead they are closed down and the communities are suffering.
I admit that it would be uneconomical to operate at the present time some mines that were developed during the period of high price of lead and zinc. I admit that no adjustments could create a situation whereby they could all operate at a profit. But I know quite a number of these people who went into the hills with small amounts of capital and developed small base metal mines and I am informed by them that there are marginal mines that with very little assistance could continue to operate and make a

small profit. They tell me they could operate if their treatment costs were cut to any extent, and ore accepted.
I know the minister is concerned about this question because I have discussed it with him. I urge the minister to extend every possible co-operation to the provincial government in an effort to do something to solve the problem of boom and bust so far as the small base metal mining communities in the interior of British Columbia are concerned. To me it is not good enough to merely let the market decide these things without any attempt to solve them as between governments and the big companies concerned. We have passed that stage. We cannot continue to let communities suffer alternate periods of prosperity and slump decade after decade and take no action.
If war were declared tomorrow the whole resources of the country would be mobilized and the government could do whatever it might put its mind to. As far as this group is concerned, we are merely asking them to use the same energy and the same resources in solving one of the many problems presented to us by peace. I am confident that effective co-operation between the federal and provincial governments and the co-operation of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, which I think would be forthcoming under the leadership of these governments, can do much to remedy the situation. All that is required is acceptance of responsibility by the governments and companies concerned.


Bert Raymond Leboe: Mr. Chairman, I think my remarks might be considered as being made primarily for the purpose of seeking information. I am wondering how much research work has been done in the past with respect to the development of electrical power at coal mines throughout the country and transporting it by the use of wires to the point where energy is needed rather than moving the coal to that point.


George Prudham: I really am not rising on a point of order, but I wonder whether we could save the discussion of problems related to the coal industry until the coal board estimates are before the committee.


Bert Raymond Leboe: I think that possibly could be done. As I said, I was looking for information in that respect. There are some other aspects to the problem of hydroelectricity which have a bearing on the question I have in mind, that is a wartime emergency. The amount of money we are spending on defence would indicate we recognize the possibility of a war so I feel that possibly some thought should be given, if it has not already
19. 1954	3187
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys been given, to breaking up the sources of electric power into smaller units. It is at that point that the business of the coal mines enters the picture.
I recognize that some research has been done in that connection. The minister spoke of a turbine that is now in the process of development, but of course at this moment that is an unknown quantity. We all recognize the vulnerability of our dams and hydroelectric power plants during a war. I was considering, therefore, the possibility of dispersing these power units throughout the area, perhaps as a defence measure looking forward to the time when an emergency might arise and at the same time looking after the communities in peacetime.
Mention has been made tonight of the distress of the mines throughout the country. 1 should like to say that I feel very strongly that our distress in mining or any other industry, outside of acts of God such as drought and so forth, is man-made and can therefore be solved by man. If anyone were to look at the distress there is in the industry today, he would find that distress is a direct result of financial policy. I believe that when we start looking at the slumps and periods of prosperity that were mentioned, invariably we will find that the root cause is financial policy. If we are going to solve some of these problems such as distress in the mines and meet the need for further research, we shall be altogether dependent on this government's financial policy.
I do not believe we in this country can continue on the basis of subsidizing this industry and subsidizing that industry. Just before I left Prince George someone said to me, "The only industry that is not subsidized is the lumber industry and we think we ought to get subsidies there too; can you do anything about it?" I do not think that is the answer to our problem. We cannot continue to subsidize here and there out of the taxpayers' pockets in order to try to make an equal distribution of purchasing power. When we do, we have a situation that is exactly comparable to the sausage tied on the end of a stick over the dog's back. The faster the dog runs the faster the sausage goes, and he never catches up to it. He is only playing himself out. I would say, Mr. Chairman, that the alleviating of the distress in the mining industry and the welfare of the miners throughout this country depends almost entirely on this government's financial policy. I would certainly urge that the government review that policy with a view to getting purchasing power into the hands of the potential consumers, and thereby build up our industry.
3188	HOUSE OF
Supply-Mines and Technical Surveys
As we have said before, and it is a fact, production does not release enough purchasing power to buy back that which is produced. When we are purchasing certain items that are items for destruction, the purchasing power released is available for the purchase of consumer goods and we have prosperity. Naturally, in peacetime when we are not preparing for a war, the whole system breaks down. I would urge the government to get to the bottom of the source of evil, which I believe is our financial policy.


George Prudham: I would suggest that the hon. member direct those remarks to the Minister of Finance. This department could not deal with the problem as he suggests.


Bert Raymond Leboe: I am finished with my
remarks, so perhaps we could call it ten o'clock and adjourn the debate.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have a few remarks, Mr. Chairman, which I should like to make at a later time. Would you call it ten o'clock?
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Walter Edward Harris: On Monday, Mr. Speaker, we shall take third reading of the two bills that

will be available for that stage. Then, we shall move to go into supply, and when the motion is carried we shall continue with this debate, calling after that agriculture. If that is the position on Tuesday night, we shall take the Criminal Code on Wednesday. On Thursday we shall move to refer the items in the estimates relating to external affairs to the standing committee on external affairs. I presume there will be a debate on external affairs on that motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: With respect, I think the minister overlooked one point. Perhaps it was deliberate. He did not indicate whether any new departments would be called if we got into supply.


Walter Edward Harris: I was hoping, Mr. Speaker, that it would be unnecessary to make that announcement because we could call all the other departments perhaps when we passed the motion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then my suspicions were well founded.


Walter Edward Harris: But if that is not agreeable we would call external affairs, national defence, national health and welfare, and allow them to stand.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Monday, March 22, 1954