1954-03-29

Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, by leave of the house I desire to move that the annual report of Trans-Canada Air Lines for the year 1953, tabled on March 15, the auditors' report in respect of Trans-Canada Air Lines for the year 1953, tabled on March 16, and also the revised budget for the year 1953, and the capital budget for the year 1954, and the operating budget for the year 1954 in respect of Trans-Canada Air Lines tabled March 26, be referred to the sessional committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to withdraw the resolution relating to the amendment of the Atomic Energy Control Act standing in my name as item No. 6 under "Government Orders" on the order paper. I am now handing over to the Clerk for insertion in Votes and Proceedings notice of a bill which will be entitled "An act to amend the Atomic Energy Control Act."


Mr. Drew:: Will the minister explain the reason for this change?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The bill to amend the Atomic Energy Control Act as originally drawn required a resolution, as it involved expenditure of money. The bill as at present drawn does not require a resolution and the government has decided to withdraw the resolution and present the bill in the form as now revised.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Order discharged and resolution withdrawn.



STANDING ORDERS


Mr. J. H. Harrison (Meadow Lake) moved: that the fourth report of the standing committee on standing orders presented to the house on Friday, March 26, 1954, be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. 390, to amend the Canada Elections Act (age of voters).


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to reduce the age of voters under the Canada Elections Act from 21 to 18.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PRIVATE BILL


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 389, respecting Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited.-Mr. Decore.


Mr. Hansell:: 1.	Who initiated the Bretton Woods conference?
2.	Who invited Canada to send a delegation?
3.	Did the Canadian delegation carry any instructions from the government, and if so, what were those instructions?
4.	Who were the official members of the Canadian delegation to the Bretton Woods economic conference?
5.	What was the position and considered qualifications of each one?
6.	What are the names of all others who accompanied the delegation as advisers, clerks and any other occupation?
7.	In what department of the government was each one employed?
8.	What was the position and considered qualification of each?
9.	What was the salary of each one employed?
10.	What was the total cost to Canada of this conference?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1. The United Nations international monetary and financial conference which was held

Questions
at Bretton Woods from July 1 to July 22, 1944, was initiated by the government of the United States for the purpose of formulating definite proposals for an international monetary fund and a bank for reconstruction and development.
2.	The invitation to the Canadian government came from the government of the United States.
3.	Before the conference was actually held, an understanding was reached between the governments concerned that the delegates would not be required to hold plenipotentiary powers and that the proposals formulated at the conference would be referred to the respective governments for their acceptance or rejection. In the circumstances the Canadian delegation to the conference did not carry any formal instructions from the Canadian government. A statement of the Canadian position was contained in a speech by the Prime Minister on April 21, 1944, following a report of a committee of experts on the proposals to establish an international monetary fund.
4 and 5. Official members of the Canadian delegation were:
The Hon. J. L. Ilsley, K.C., M.P., minister of finance;
The Hon. L. S. St. Laurent, K.C., minister of justice;
Mr. D. C. Abbott, K.C., parliamentary assistant to the minister of finance;
Mr. Lionel Chevrier, K.C., M.P., parliamentary assistant to the minister of munitions and supply;
Mr. J. A. Blanchette, M.P.;
Mr. W. A. Tucker, K.C., M.P.;
Dr. W. C. Clark, deputy minister of finance;
Mr. G. F. Towers, governor of the Bank of Canada;
Dr. W. A. Mackintosh, special assistant to the deputy minister of finance;
Mr. L. Rasminsky, chairman (alternate), foreign exchange control board;
Mr. A. F. W. Plumptre, financial attache, Canadian embassy, Washington;
Mr. J. J. Deutsch, special assistant to the under-secretary of state for external affairs;
Mr. P. T. Tremblay, third secretary in the Canadian embassy at Washington.
6,	7, 8 and 9. Name, position, salary: Mrs. M. E. Unger, clerk grade 3, $1,721.04; Miss B. M. Eynon, office manager and general secretary, wartime prices and trade board Washington office, $2,300 (U.S.).
10. The only expenses incurred by the government were the travelling expenses of the various delegates. At this late date it 
is only possible to give the total of these travelling expenses for the civil servants who attended this conference. These expenses were $2,229.16.



COAL AND GOLD MINES


Mr. Purdy:: What was the amount of direct federal assistance paid or committed for in the fiscal year 1953 for (a) the coal mines of Canada; (b) the gold mines of Canada?


Mr. Prudham:: Amounts
(a)	Assistance to coal mines, paid, $7,155,104.00; committed, $1,847,662.00; estimated, $10,669,000.00.
*(b) Assistance to gold mines, paid, $11,059,480.39; committed, $2,408,910.32; estimated, $11,000,000.00.
The above figures represent payments and commitments up to and including March 22, 1954.
*(b) Included in the $11,059,480.39 is an amount of $22,199.25 representing holdback payments for 1951 and $717,736.99 representing holdback payments for 1952.



GRAIN SHIPMENTS THROUGH CHURCHILL, HALIFAX AND SAINT JOHN

Mr. Brooks:: How many bushels of grain were shipped through the ports of Churchill, Halifax and Saint John, respectively, during each of the years 1946 to 1953 inclusive?


Mr. Dickey:: Year	Churchill	Halifax	Saint John1946 ...	. . 2,929,000	6,851,000	15,925,0001947 ...	. . 4,976,000	7,008,000	13,671,0001948 ...	. . 5,314,000	7,434,000	12,210,0001949 ...	. . 5,528,000	9,346,000	14,122,0001950 .. .	. . 6,768,000	6,160,000	10,100,0001951 ...	. . 7,278,000	5,548,000	11,958,0001952 ...	. . 8,585,000	10,136,000	15,847,0001953 ...	. . 10,784,000	13,815,000	22,247,000



EXPORT AND IMPORT PERMITS ACT


Mr. Knowles:: 1.	How many prosecutions have been lodged in connection with alleged offences against the Export and Import Permits Act?
2.	How many of the aforementioned prosecutions resulted in convictions?
3.	What are the names of persons or companies so convicted?
4.	What was the offence in each case and what penalty was imposed?


Mr. Dickey:: 1.	Twenty-six.
2.	Seventeen.
3 and 4. Milford Oliver-exporting feed without a permit-fined $100.

Mark Benjamin-exporting hay rake without a permit-fined $50.
Laurent Lamothe-exporting hay rake without a permit-fined $50.
Gaspesia Lumber Ltd.-exporting lumber of quality and quantity other than specified in permits-fined $2,000.
Arthur E. Sabourin-exporting eggs without a permit-fined $50.
Percy Weissman-exporting tinplate to destination other than specified in permits- fined $1,025.
Willie Boudreau-exporting hay rake without permit-fined $25.
Oliva Grenier-exporting hay rake without permit-fined $25.
Joseph Finestone (first case)-exporting tinplate of quality other than specified in permit-fined $25.
Joseph Finestone (second case)-exporting tinplate to destination other than specified in permit-fined $125.
Sophy Segal, then carrying on business under the firm name and style of Canada Scrap Iron and Metal-exporting steel scrap in excess of permits-fined $600.
Colwood Accessories Limited-false information in export permit application; transferring a permit; allowing another person to use permit re nylon yarn-fined $1,750.
L. R. Shapiro, then carrying on business under the firm name and style of Lenex Corporation-allowing another person to use export permit re tinplate-fined $1,000.
Kent Steel Products Limited-allowing another person to use export permit re tinplate-fined $1,000.
Jacob Monster, then carrying on business under firm name and style of Wilmod Company-using another person's export permit re tinplate-fined $1,000.
Morris Gurvey, then carrying on business under firm name and style of M. Gurvey and Company-allowing another person to use his export permit re radio parts-fined $1,000.
Metropolitan Braids Limited-exporting nylon yarn without a permit and using another person's permit to export-fined $1,000.



LETTER CARRIERS

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	What length of service must a letter carrier have in order to be eligible for appointment as a supervisory letter carrier?
2.	What are the duties of a supervisory letter carrier?
3.	Is there a pay differential between letter carriers on regular walks and supervisory letter carriers? If so, what is the amount of that differential0
Questions
4.	Do supervisory letter carriers have priority over other letter carriers in the choice of time for annual leaves, regardless of length of service?
5.	Have any changes in respect of arrangements for annual leaves, as between supervisory letter carriers and letter carriers on regular walks been made at any time since February 1, 1954? If so, on what dates were such changes made, and what were the terms of such changes?
6.	Has the Post Office Department received representations, at any time since February 1, 1954, from associations or organizations representing letter carriers, in respect of arrangements for annual leaves?
7.	What were the terms of such representations, and what steps has the Post Office Department taken to meet such employee representations?


Mr. Cole:: 1.	There is no fixed length of service. Positions are filled by promotion wherever practical.
2.	To act as relief carriers in the case of sick leave, annual leave or any other type of leave. To act as rotation carriers in connection with the five-day 40-hour week. To check letter carrier walks. To assist in the training of inexperienced help and to perform such other related duties as may be required.
3.	Yes, at the minimum, $660, at the maximum, $300.
4.	Yes, in some offices.
5.	Yes, as outlined on March 17, page 3071 of Hansard.
6.	Yes.
7.	That selection of annual leave periods be on a basis of length of service irrespective of rank. This has been granted where the practical requirements permit as follows:
(a)	If as many suitable supervisory letter carriers as are required, in each letter carrier delivery office, can be recruited without their being given priority for annual leave, this is to be done.
(b)	In those centres where it is not possible to recruit the necessary number of suitable supervisory letter carriers without these employees being given priority for annual leave, then they are to be given this priority within the block of ten walks.



SOUTH SASKATCHEWAN RIVER DAM AND IRRIGATION PROJECT

Mr. Diefenbaker:: What expenditures have been made on the South Saskatchewan river dam and irrigation project, month by month from August 1953, to date?	'


Mr. McCubbin:: 1953: August 31, $50,232.56; September 30, $45,849.70; October 31, $39,918.34; November 30, $54,555.81; December 13, $45,758.99.
1954: January 31, $31,291.65; February 28, $61,261.23.

Questions



CANADIAN FARM LOAN BOARD


Mr. Argue:: 1.	How many applications for loans were received by the Canadian farm loan board for the year ending March 31, 1953, by provinces?
2.	How many loans were granted in each province for the year ending March 31, 1953?


Mr. Benidickson:: 1.
Province British Columbia 	Number 	
370 	
346Saskatchewan 	
1,099 	
319
1,169New Brunswick 	
191 	
83Prince Edward Island	
Newfoundland	
128 	
0
2.
Number of Number of
	first	second
Province	mortgage	mortgage
	loans	loans
	disbursed	disbursed
British Columbia	127	10Alberta	185	35Saskatchewan 	447	236Manitoba 	160	85Ontario	318	60Quebec 	107	42New Brunswick	60	7Nova Scotia	39	1Prince Edward Island	71	10



FEDERAL HEALTH GRANTS


Mr. Tucker:: 1.	Has any assistance been given by the federal government to the province of Saskatchewan under the health grants program for the purchase of scientific, laboratory and other related equipment?
2.	If so, what are the particulars of such assistance?


Mr. Robertson:: 1.	Yes.
2.	A grant of $127,500.76 has been approved recently under the national health grants program for the university hospital at Saskatoon toward the provision of scientific and technical X-ray and laboratory equipment in order to establish suitable diagnostic services for the large portion of the province centring at Saskatoon.



* LOYALTY SCREENINGS-GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES

Mr. Fulton:: On the occasion when the loyalty screening of government employees was first completed, were

there any dismissals or transfers, and if so, how many, in the following departments or agencies of government:	(a) external affairs; (b) national
defence; (c) national research council; (d) Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (both domestic and international services); (e) national film board?


Mr. St. Laurent:: The asterisk before this question indicates that the hon. member who set it down wishes to have it answered orally. The only answer I can make is that this government must take the responsibility of refusing to make a public record of the information requested by the question for the reasons given by the Acting Prime Minister (Mr. Howe) in answering orally a similar question on March 3, as reported at page 2618 of Hansard.



EXPENDITURES FOR TOBACCO, ALCOHOL, ETC.

Mr. Nicholson:: What were the per capita expenditures in Canada in 1931, 1941, and 1951, for (a) tobacco; (b) alcoholic beverages; (c) cosmetics; (d) moving pictures; (e) education?


John Horace Dickey: Estimated per capita expenditure in Canada
1931	1941	1951Tobacco 	$10.79*	$15.03	$30.18Alcoholic beverages	15.90*	20.68	52.24Cosmetics and toilet	preparations ....	1.54	2.08	4.41Moving pictures (exclusive of	taxes) 	3.25	3.54	6.60Education 	13.95	11.28	35.33
* Estimate for 1930 used-national accounts, income and expenditure, 1926-1950.



MAIL DELIVERY CONTRACT


Mr. Dufresne:: 1.	Has the mail delivery contract for rural route No. 1, at Montpellier, county of Labelle, province of Quebec, been renewed?
2.	If so, (a) to whom was the said contract awarded; (b) on what date; (c) for what amount?


Mr. Cote:: 1.	No.
2.	(a) Ardoire Seguin; (b) January 19, 1954;
(c)	$1,050 per annum.



NOVA SCOTIA


Mr. Balcom:: For the calendar year January 1, 1953 to December 31, 1953, what payment was made to Nova Scotia from money collected from corporations whose main business is the distribution to the public of electrical energy, gas or steam?


Mr. Benidickson:: 



$173,482.  QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS CABINET MINISTERS  COMPANY DIRECTORSHIPS

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Are any cabinet ministers directors of any companies, corporations, etc?
2.	If so, what ministers, what companies or corporations are they directors of, and at what date were any directorships presently held by such cabinet ministers assumed?
3.	Have any cabinet ministers resigned any directorships since being sworn of the privy council?
4.	If so, which ministers, on what dates, and from what companies or corporations?
5.	Are any parliamentary assistants to cabinet ministers directors of any companies, corporations, etc.?
6.	If so, which ones, and of what companies or corporations?



COAL CONSUMPTION-GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS

[Stage Direction]
Motions for Papers P.F.R.A.-PERSONNEL, 1953 Mr. Diefenbaker:
What are the names of all officials, servants and employees connected with P.F.R.A. and their respective occupations at the time of appointment and the amount of salaries and expenses paid to each of them during the year 1953?

John George Diefenbaker: How many officials, employees, etc., are or were there in the provinces of (a) Manitoba; (b) Saskatchewan; (c) Alberta, in the P.F.R.A. administration as of (i) March 1, 1954; (ii) March 1, 1950?



P.F.A.A.-PERSONNEL, PRAIRIE PROVINCES

John George Diefenbaker: How many officials, employees, etc., are or were in the employ of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act administration in the provinces of (a) Manitoba; (b) Saskatchewan; (c) Alberta, as of (i) this date; (ii) March 1950?


Mr. Hansell:: 1.	How much coal was used in government buildings during the last year for which figures are available?
2.	How much of this coal was mined in Canada?



RADIO AND TELEVISION SETS


Mr. Fraser (Peterborough):: 1.	What was the total number of television sets sold in Canada during: (a) the year 1953; (b) the first two months of 1954?
2.	What was the total	amount	of excise	tax	collected on these sets in:	(a) the	year 1953;	(b)	the
first two months of 1954?
3.	What was the total amount of excise tax turned over to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on the sale of these sets in: (a) the year 1953; (b) the first two months of 1954?
4.	What was the total number of radios sold in Canada during; (a) the year 1953; (b) the first two months of 1954?
5.	What was the total	amount	of excise	tax	collected on radio sets in:	(a) the	year 1953;	(b)	the
first two months of 1954?
6.	What was the total amount of excise tax turned over to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on the sale of these sets in: (a) the year 1953; (b) the first two months of 1954?
7.	What was the total sale value of television sets sold in; (a) the year 1953; (b) the first two months of 1954?
8.	What was the total sale value of radio sets sold in: (a) the year 1953; (b) the first two months of 1954?



P.F.A.A.-PERSONNEL, 1953

John George Diefenbaker: What are the names of each and every official and employee connected with the Prairie Farm Assistance Act administration, and their respective occupations at the time of appointment, and the respective amounts of salaries and expenses paid each of them during the year 1953?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Knowles:: 

CUSTOMS CHECK BRANCH


Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of a typical letter (or typical letters, if there are any significant variations in different letters written on the subject), dated at any time since January 1, 1952, written by the customs check branch of the customs and excise division of the Department of National Revenue, to collectors of customs at customs ports, advising that a lower rate of duty or the exemption from sales tax or excise tax is applicable, without necessarily giving the name of any firm involved in such correspondence.


Mr. Abbott:: In the absence of the Minister of National Revenue I wonder whether my hon. friend would allow these motions to stand?


Mr. Speaker:: Motions No. 1 and No. 2 stand.



POST OFFICE EMPLOYEES-NIGHT DIFFERENTIAL

Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of any correspondence dated at any time since January 1, 1954, exchanged between any organizations or associations representing post office employees, and the Postmaster General, the deputy postmaster general, or any other senior official of

Inquiries of the Ministry the Post Office Department, with reference to the question of the night differential for post office workers.



REQUEST FOR INTERIM PAYMENT ON DELIVERIES OF 1953 CROP

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: wish to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Has a representation been received from the government of Manitoba asking for an advance or interim payment on account of the wheat delivered of the 1953 crop; and is consideration being given by the government to granting such an advance in order to meet the costs that necessarily affect farmers during the spring period?
Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade
and Commerce): Mr. Speaker, I recall no communication from the province of Manitoba; but I shall be glad to look through my files and, if I am wrong, I will answer tomorrow.


John George Diefenbaker: What about the other question? Has the government given consideration to having the wheat board make an advance payment on account of the wheat delivered by western farmers of the 1953 crop in order to meet costs that will necessarily fall on farmers in the springtime?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The wheat board at the moment is in the process of paying out some $60 million, being the final payment on the crop of 1952; and it is felt that that cash in hand will be sufficient to take care of spring seeding requirements.



ATOMIC ENERGY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. A. Bryson (Humboldl-Melfori):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence or, in his absence, to the associate minister. Can the minister confirm this morning's radio dispatch reporting that radioactive dust has fallen on the town of Melfort, Saskatchewan?


Hon. R. O. Campney (Associate Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the answer is no; I cannot confirm it.



DEVELOPMENT FOR POWER PURPOSES IN NEW BRUNSWICK

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John Horace Dickey: On
Friday, the hon. member for Charlotte (Mr. Stuart) asked if the federal government had
[Mr. Knowles. 1

received any representations from the provincial government of New Brunswick in connection with the development of atomic energy for power purposes in that province.
The situation is that on February 17, 1953, the Minister of Trade and Commerce referred to the government's desire that production of power from atomic energy should be discussed with those who distribute power in Canada-the provincial power commissions and privately-owned power corporations. His remarks in this connection appear at page 2011 of Hansard. Subsequently, a letter was received from the power commission of the province of New Brunswick, dated February 19, 1953, asking whether or not this was a general invitation for participation. The reply to this letter was sent on March 5, 1953, advising the power commission of New Brunswick that the minister's remarks could be regarded as an invitation to those interested in participation, and certain information regarding the program to date was made available. It was suggested that the power commission of New Brunswick should select an individual to visit Chalk River so that the commission would be fully informed of developments. Through this means the province of New Brunswick will be able to participate in future development to the maximum extent which circumstances will permit.



SECURITY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Edmund Davie Fulton: With reference to question No. 49, Mr. Speaker, to which the Prime Minister gave an oral answer, may I ask if he is aware of the fact that in 1950, as reported in Hansard for that year, information up to that time dealing with two of the agencies referred to in question No. 49 was given. If he is not aware of that fact, perhaps I can bring it to his attention. If he is aware of it, can he explain why the policy appears to be changed and that similar information on those two agencies with respect to the others should now be refused?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I will have to look into the matter. I did not attempt to make any comparison between what the hon. gentleman says was done in 1950 and the position now taken. I can assure him that I will look into the matter and see whether or not there is any special reason.



POSTAL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. A. Enfield (York-Scarborough):: May
I direct a question to the Postmaster General. Can he say what will be the area in Toronto which will be granted the drop letter rate when the new rates come into effect on April 1? Naturally I am particularly interested in the constituency of York-Scarborough in this regard.


Hon. Alcide Cote (Postmaster General):: wish to thank my friend the hon. member for York-Scarborough for giving me notice of this question, which I am very glad has been raised.
In urban centres the drop letter rate includes the area served by letter carriers and where appropriate also includes the area served by dependent post offices within the municipal area under the jurisdiction of the city postmaster.
A municipality of metropolitan Toronto was established by provincial statute in 1953. This metropolitan area does not exactly coincide with the drop letter rate area, the boundaries of which are determined from a practical point of view to correspond with the actualities of the situation.
For example, at at least one point, the boundaries of letter carrier delivery have already extended beyond the boundaries of the metropolitan municipality.
At other points within the metropolitan municipality, there are areas which are comparatively undeveloped from an urban postal point of view.
It has therefore been deemed appropriate to define the area in connection with the municipality of metropolitan Toronto which will be considered as the drop letter rate area of the Toronto main post office.
The boundaries of this area are as follows:
On the south, lake Ontario. On the east, Pickering town line, north to highway No. 2A; thence by the Lansing cut-off to the proposed new highway running south of the Lansing road, as far as the Don river, thence north along the line of the Don river to Steeles avenue east; west along Steeles avenue east and Steeles avenue west to the Canadian National Railways, west of Dufferin street; south on the Canadian National Railways, thence west along Finch avenue to concession 1; south on concession 1 to the Richview side road, west on the Richview side road to Browns line; south on Browns line to the Queen Elizabeth highway, west 83276-216
Interim Supply
along the Queen Elizabeth highway to Etobicoke creek, then following the line of the Etobicoke creek south to lake Ontario.
The boundaries of the drop letter rate area of the municipality of Toronto will naturally be subject to amendment from time to time as development occurs.
One of the main features is that the complete postal area will be under the jurisdiction of the city postmaster of Toronto.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY

Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $526,007,622, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the items to be voted, as set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1955, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament; and in addition thereto, a sum not exceeding $216,900, being one-quarter of the amount of item 431, a sum not exceeding $417,594.33, being one-sixth of the amount of items 197, 199, 202, 203, and a sum not exceeding $4,303,708.08, being one-twelfth of the amount of items 19, 37, 61, 79 , 433, 434, of the said estimates be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1955.
He said: Mr. Chairman, as was the case at about this time last year the proposed bill will provide, first, one-sixth of all items to be voted in the main estimates for the fiscal year 1954-55; second, an additional one-quarter of one special item in connection with the international trade fair in respect of which most of the charges will come up for payment within the first two months of the year. That will release in all five-twelfths of that item. Third, there is an additional one-sixth of four special items, three of which are to cover the sessional expenses of the Senate and the House of Commons on which the heaviest payments fall due in the early part of the year. The fourth item is used initially to finance certain recoverable payments whereas provision for net expenditures only is included in the estimates. That item is item 197 relating to the unemployment insurance commission. This will release in all one-third of those items.
Finally, there is an additional one-twelfth of six special items for services with seasonal or other variable expenditure trends where heavier than normal expenditures are required in the early part of the year. This will release in all one-quarter of these items. I might add that these special items are the ones concerning which each year I have asked that an additional amount should be voted in interim supply.

Interim Supply
The general proportion of one-sixth of all services plus additional proportions for certain special items is intended to provide for all the necessary requirements of the public service to the end of May. In no instance is the total amount of any item being released. The form of the bill is the same as the bill passed at this time last year. The passing of the bill will not prejudice the rights and privileges of members to criticize and discuss any item in the estimates which will come up for consideration from time to time throughout the balance of the session, and the usual undertaking is hereby given that such rights and privileges will be respected and will not be curtailed or restricted in any way as a result of the passing of this measure.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister said that in no case was the total amount of an item being asked for in this interim supply bill. What is the largest amount in any case- five-twelfths?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Five-twelfths, yes.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.



WAYS AND MEANS


Douglas Charles Abbott: that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1955, the following sums be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, namely:
1.	The sum of $526,007,622, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1955;
2.	The sum of $216,900, being one-quarter of the amount of item 431 of the said estimates;
3.	The sum of $417,594.33, being one-sixth of the amount of items 197, 199, 202, 203 of the said estimates; and
4.	The sum of $4,303,708.08, being one-twelfth of the amount of items 19, 37, 61, 79, 433, 434 of the said estimates; as set forth in the resolution concurred in this day in the committee of supply.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Abbott thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 391, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st of March, 1955.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.
On clause 1-Short title.
Stanley Howard Knowles: With respect to clause 1,
may I ask the minister if there is any significance to the fact that this act is to be cited as Appropriation Act No. 0?


Douglas Charles Abbott: When the bill is given reading now it will be No. 1. This is a preliminary printing of course. We are doing this by leave, but it will be Appropriation Act No. 1.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
On clause 3-$216,900 granted for 1954-55.
Edmund Davie Fulton: On this clause, I have a question which is not extremely important, but I should like to know how this thing works. As I understand it, under clause 2 we have voted one-sixth of every item in the main estimates. Then, under clause 3 we are asked to vote a specific sum not to exceed $216,900, being one-quarter of the amount of the item set forth in schedule A to the act. I take it from looking at schedule A that item in the estimates is No. 431.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is it possible that by using the wording in clause 3 we have voted already one-sixth of item 431 and we are now voting an additional one-quarter?


Douglas Charles Abbott: An additional one-quarter, and as I said the effect of this clause is to vote five-twelfths of the item.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
Schedule A agreed to.
Schedule B agreed to.
Schedule C agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Shall this bill be
read a third time now?


Stanley Howard Knowles: By leave.


Douglas Charles Abbott: the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.


William Alfred Robinson: These are the supplementary estimates, and the first item is No. 547.


[Stage Direction]
547. To provide for the payment of compensation to owners of animals affected with diseases coming under the operation of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, which have died or have been slaughtered under circumstances unprovided for under the above act and regulations thereunder, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $838.
Douglas Charles Abbott: I was just going to point out, at the outset, that as usual in these supplementary estimates there are no new questions of policy. All of these items provide funds for which there was an item in the main estimates but for which inadequate provision was made in the votes. In other words, the policy has already been determined and this is to provide moneys where there has not been sufficient already voted.


Hazen Robert Argue: If that is the case, I wonder whether the minister can explain why the first item states that it is to provide for the payment of compensation to owners of diseased animals which died or were slaughtered under circumstances unprovided for in the Animal Contagious Diseases Act and regulations. Perhaps the minister could say why this has not been covered by either the act as it existed before this session of parliament or the act as it now exists following the amendments that were made to the act during this session? The item is not very large, but here are a number of producers who have received compensation for animal slaughter, as it says, in a way unprovided for by the legislation.


Douglas Charles Abbott: My understanding is, as it was explained to us in treasury board when this item came forward, that these were appropriate cases for compensation but for which, as the item indicates, compensation was not directly provided under the act. I have the names here of the persons who received compensation.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Have received?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Will receive.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Which is it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There is no money voted. They will receive compensation totalling $838. There is a payment of $183 to a gentleman in Alberta. The carcass was condemned for t.b., and all the cases seem to have been either as a result of the animal having t.b. or what is described as a t.b. reactor, whatever that is.
83276-216i
Supply-Agriculture


Mr. McCullough (Moose Mountain):: I think it would be particularly appropriate if we had the Minister of Agriculture here to answer the questions on this item. The Minister of Finance is not able to tell the committee exactly the reason for these appropriations.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I can give that information. Perhaps I should say that there is no discourtesy intended in the minister not being here. It has been fairly common for ministers not to be required to attend for these final supplementary items, because, as I say, the principle involved in each item has already been passed upon by the house. The votes are merely supplementary votes which have already been discussed. If the committee wishes I can give the names, the amounts and the reasons for the death of the cattle. It has never been the custom to debate again at this stage the desirability or otherwise of compensating people for diseased cattle. There is a similar item in the estimate which will be before the house within the next two or three weeks. That is my only reason for making that statement.


Edward George McCullough: I do
not think there is need for so much haste to pass these items that we cannot be informed as to the exact nature of the appropriations to be made. I, sir, would like to make some observations on the administration of this act and on the Department of Agriculture. I feel it would be quite appropriate and timely to do that because of certain information coming to our desks and through our research. I have a matter which I feel perhaps is urgent and important to the Department of Agriculture and to our people generally. While it is not my wish to hold up the house on these estimates, I do want to refer to a matter which, at least-


Douglas Charles Abbott: Before we proceed with this, Mr. Chairman, I think it is important that we adhere fairly strictly to the rules on these supplementary estimates. I suggest the hon. member's remarks must be related, not to the administration of the Department of Agriculture generally or to the policy of the department but to the compensation paid for loss of livestock.


Edward George McCullough: If we
are to adhere strictly to what the minister has said, Mr. Chairman, and you are in agreement with him, it is impossible for me to bring up the matter I had in mind. In view of that, I feel the minister should tell us exactly what the expenditure is to be under this vote.

Supply-Agriculture


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall do that. The names and addresses of the recipients and the amounts received are as follows:
Name	Address	Amount
Laurent Authier .. Riviere Heva, Quebec .... $33 Germain Beland .. Ste. Jeanne d'Arc, Quebec 30
Bernard Brais ____Iberville, Quebec	 134
Aleide Laflamme .. R-2, Stanstead, Quebec .. 92
Robert St. Pierre ..L'Islet, Quebec	 70
Rudulph Denzutter Aylmer, Ontario	 88
R. S. Sennett ....Queensville, Ontario ... 103
Charles Dav.ey ___Boggy Creek, Manitoba .. 105
Richard May	Cremona, Alberta	 183
The particulars as to the cause of death and the reason that the animal was destroyed are given here as, carcass condemned for t.b. or t.b. reactor, died.


Edward George McCullough: I should like to ask the minister now whether there are any hogs included in those figures, and if so what was the reason for slaughtering in that case?


Douglas Charles Abbott: All cattle, Mr. Chairman, no hogs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
548. To provide for grants to fairs and exhibitions in accordance with the regulations established by order in council of December 22, 1952, P.C. 4602; for payments on account of agreements in force on December 22, 1952, with exhibition associations covering the construction of buildings and other major undertakings-further amount required and to authorize grants to the exhibitions as detailed in the estimates, $108,000.
Mr. Tustin:: In this item, which is grants to fairs, in the details on page 14 I find that the Prince Edward county agricultural society at Picton, Ontario, received $900. Immediately under that is shown the Ridgetown district agricultural fair, $2,500. I should like to ask the minister, Mr. Chairman, if these fairs are both B fairs, and if so why there is a difference in the grants. If that is not the case, has Picton been paid a portion of the grant that is being made to it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not know that I can explain the difference.
These grants, as my hon. friend knows, are made under regulations established by P.C. 4602 dated December 22, 1952, and commencing with the fiscal year 1954-55, Prince Edward county agricultural society, Picton, Ontario, and the Ridgetown district agricultural society, Ridgetown, are eligible for grants under those regulations. In view of the commitments made to both these fairs it is desirable to provide a grant not exceeding $900 for Prince Edward county agricultural society and not exceeding $2,500 for the Ridgetown district agricultural society in the fiscal year 1953-54. Authority is

requested for payment of these grants for that reason. It is assumed from that explanation that there are already outstanding commitments in the case of both these fairs.


Mr. Charlton:: With respect to item 548, would the minister give just a brief explanation of the $108,000 set aside for grants to fairs and exhibitions. Are there any large amounts?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes, I shall do that. Subsequent to the preparation of the estimates for the current fiscal year the policy regarding building grants was revised. Under the authority of P.C. 4602, of December 22, 1952, to which I referred a moment ago, the maximum building grant payable to exhibition associations was set at $20,000, payable according to the progress of the work instead of $100,000 payable at the rate of $10,000 per annum as provided for in the previous three-way agreement. As a result of this change in policy and of the receipt of applications not previously anticipated, the allotment for building grants has been depleted. Then, there are some details given as to how it will be provided. I have not here the specific details of the various fairs to which the whole sum of $108,000, will be apportioned. But it is the standard policy, as my hon. friend knows.


Edward George McCullough: If I understood correctly, the minister referred to a change in policy. I do not think hon. members would understand that change. Do I take it that there will be an increase in expenditures by way of assistance to class "A" and "B" fairs, or is it merely for the construction of buildings connected with the putting on of such fairs?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The change in policy, as I said, was in the changing of the limit. There was a time when we were restricting construction expenditures because of the situation in connection with building activities subsequent to Korea. As I said a moment ago, the limit for construction grants was fixed at $20,000 instead of $100,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
550.	Agricultural lime assistance-further amount required, $85,000.
Edward George McCullough: May
we have the details concerning item 550, for $85,000?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is the standard subsidy which has been payable for years with respect

to lime assistance, and it is available to all farmers who use it. It has been explained in the discussion on the main estimates every year. However, if my hon. friend wishes to have the full explanation, I am prepared to give it to him.
Lime is fundamental in maintaining the fertility of a large portion of farm land in Canada where the soil tends to become acid. Most of the soil in Newfoundland, the maritime provinces, Quebec, some districts of Ontario and the coastal region of British Columbia is of this type. Without adequate and continuous liming the productivity of such soil is relatively poor and farming becomes unprofitable. The provinces participating in the policy include Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia. These provinces are subsidized to the extent of sixty per cent of the total amount expended by the provinces for any direct activity in increasing lime utilization for soil amendment purposes, subject to a maximum of $1.50 per ton on lime distributed in the province. This year the maximum subsidy increased from $1.25 to $1.50 per ton. This, with increased freight rates and the increased use of agricultural lime in Prince Edward Island, Quebec and Ontario, renders the $500,000 voted by parliament for the fiscal year 1953-54 insufficient to cover the federal government's share under its arrangement with the provinces.
Of the $85,000 requested in this supplementary vote the provinces would be paid approximately as follows:
Newfoundland
Prince Edward Island	$12,000
Nova Scotia	 13,000
New Brunswick	 13,000
Quebec	 26.000
Ontario	 14,000
British Columbia	 7,000
I do not have the figure for Newfoundland.


Edward George McCullough: I
understand that the total vote for the current year will be half a million dollars?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is $585,000 altogether. This is supplementary to the original vote of half a million dollars.


Edward George McCullough: Has
the government given consideration to extending the policy of assistance in regard to fertilizers? I might bring to his attention the fact that fertilizer prices have been increased in Canada to a point where, today, in western Canada, in the three prairie provinces ammonium phosphate fertilizer sells at $120 a ton. There is a real need either to have the government look into the fertilizer industry, with a view to bringing fertilizer costs down, so that we can have
Supply-Agriculture
more use of them, so that the fertility of our soil will be retained, or the government should investigate the whole matter and undertake either to bring the price of fertilizers in line with farmers' costs of production, or extend the policy of subsidization.
I would bring to the minister's attention that this would not be the first time that governments have undertaken subsidization of fertilizers for the agricultural industry. In Great Britain they do it. And in many other countries. I suggest this is a matter which should be given attention by the government.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I will see that it is brought to the minister's attention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
551.	Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and water storage-further amount required, $139,600.
Mr. Castleden:: Could the minister give the names of the smaller projects included in the amount of $81,000, as set out at page 15?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There is the Hogue dam,
$31,000; Neepawa dam, $25,000; and Pheasant creek, $25,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
552.	Major irrigation and reclamation projects in the prairie provinces-further amount required, $230,207.
Mr. Guelch:: What projects was this money paid out for?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is supplementary to the big vote, and was paid out in connection with the Bow River project.


Stanley Howard Knowles: How could it be paid out before it is voted?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It may have been paid out, because in some cases we can provide for these items by a transfer of allotment. However, it can always be done by a supplementary vote. I think however that this has not been paid. It was a slip of the tongue on my part.


Edward George McCullough: I
would like to ask if any of this vote is for the Moosomin project?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, it is all for the Bow River
project.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
553.	Estimated amount required to recoup the agricultural prices support account to cover the net operating loss of the agricultural prices support board during the fiscal year 1953-54, including authority to credit to the account the net revenue received into the agricultural products board account from the sale of New Zealand meat received in exchange for beef shipped to the United Kingdom, $37,758,894.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Agriculture
Edmund Davie Fulton: Has the minister figures to show how much was recovered from the sale of New Zealand meat?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The amount recouped on the bone in carcass New Zealand meat was $24,149,844.07. That was recouped up to March 31, 1953.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Does that mean then that in effect the amount required to recoup the agricultural prices support account, to cover the net operating loss of the board, was $37 million plus $24 million, the $37 million figure being the net figure?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There were different kinds of beef. The total quantity of the bone in carcass New Zealand beef was 70,252,935 pounds, and the estimated total loss to March 31, 1954, on that transaction, was $27,734,579.52, and the total estimated loss to March 31, 1954, related to foot-and-mouth disease was $69,187,628.78.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What I was trying to get at was this. The $37 million appears to have been arrived at by crediting the account with $24 million recovered from the sale of New Zealand beef.


Douglas Charles Abbott: And other recoveries.


Edmund Davie Fulton: And other recoveries?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Right.


Hazen Robert Argue: Has the board any meat on hand as a result of this transaction regarding foot-and-mouth disease, or does this clean up the total loss?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is the total loss. I still have to verify that, but the intention was to clean up the total loss this year. I make the reservation that there might be some minor items, but they would not be substantial.


Hazen Robert Argue: The board has not any substantial quantity of meat on hand?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: Can the minister tell us how much money was paid out to compensate cold storage concerns for services rendered in connection with the amount paid under the prices support act?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I have no information as to that.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: I presume that this $37 million and some odd is over and above $200 million set out in the original fund.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The $37 million recoup restores the original fund of $200 million as at March 31, including value of inventories on hand. As I pointed out a moment ago, the total loss on hogs and cattle related to the foot-and-

mouth disease outbreak was just over $69 million. Last year we voted a substantial sum-I have not the figure before me-and this year we are voting this additional $37 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION National Gallery of Canada-
555. Payment to the national gallery purchase account for the purpose of acquiring works of art, in conformity with section 8 of the National Gallery Act-further amount required, $360,000.
Mr. Nesbitt:: I should like to ask the minister a question on this item. It amounts to $360,000 for the purchase of works of art. Can the minister tell us what works of art were purchased-I presume they are paintings-and what schools and who were the masters concerned?


Douglas Charles Abbott: If we have to get into the schools I shall have to get someone who is a little more expert than I am in this field, Mr. Chairman. I can tell my hon. friend in general terms what works of art were purchased, but if he is not satisfied with the information I shall be able to give him we shall have to let the answers stand and my colleague, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, will be able to answer him, since he is a devotee of and an expert in that field. I am sure his answer will be much more satisfactory than mine.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Were these the paintings which appeared in the Montreal Gazette this morning?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not read that section of the Gazette.


Stanley Howard Knowles: They were on the editorial page.


Douglas Charles Abbott: My colleague can answer the Question.


Mr. Harris:: The purchases are from different artists, all from one collection, however, and represent different schools of painting. I know some publicity has been given to these particular purchases, with opinions expressed in favour of them by persons with some art training, and criticism of them apparently by a well-known columnist.


Mr. Macdonnell:: Was the last one without training? The minister said the previous one had art training, but he did not say anything about the other one.


Walter Edward Harris: I did not suggest that he did not have any. There have been remarks upon it in a distinguished newspaper known as the Times of London, and there are comments on this purchase. I only have this to say,

Mr. Chairman, that it is a continuation of the policy we announced last year at this time of purchasing from this particular collection representative paintings of various schools in order to have them in the gallery so that eventually-I do not say how long this may take-we shall have a sufficiently wide selection that one as a student of art could obtain an appreciation of art as it was practised in Europe at various times during three or four hundred years.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Would the minister agree to give us the names of the artists and the titles of the paintings concerned?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes. Well, the paintings are: by Quentin Metsys, The Crucifixion; by Mr. Beham, Portrait of a Prince of Bavaria; by Guardi, Santa Maria Della Salute and the Grand Canal Venice; by Nicolas Maes, Lacemaker; by Memling, Madonna and Child with Saint Anthony of Padua.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Can the minister tell us how much was paid for each of these paintings?


Walter Edward Harris: It was a group purchase of the lot at the figure mentioned in the supplementary.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Were these paintings purchased as representative of schools of painting that are not represented in the national gallery at the present time?


Walter Edward Harris: In two cases they are of schools that are not represented at all; and in the others, they are additions to the collection we now have.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Perhaps the minister can tell us which two paintings are indicative of schools that are not represented at the present time? Are they Italian or Flemish schools of art?


Walter Edward Harris: I am told that the Flemish
school has not been represented until the present time, and we are getting the Nicolas Maes "Lacemaker". I am also told that the Guardi one is the first of the so-called impressionist group in Italy.


Edward George McCullough: I was
on my feet before you called the present item, Mr. Chairman. I should like your indulgence and the indulgence of hon. members to refer back to item 554. I am sure we are quite happy to have the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration with us. I know that none of us wants to prolong his statements on some of these matters. However, I should like to bring to the attention of the minister's department-


William Alfred Robinson: Has the hon. member consent to revert to item 554?
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Douglas Charles Abbott: As long as it does not become a habit with him, Mr. Chairman.
Indian affairs branch-
Education-
554.	Administration, operation and maintenance -further amount required, $120,000.


Edward George McCullough: I shall be fairly brief. I want to bring to the minister's attention the fact that in regard to the Indian reserve in my own constituency at White Bear reserve, we have a rather serious situation with respect to the Indian population. I have already taken the matter up with officials of his department, and I suggest that something be done about giving hospital and medical care to these people. The population there is rising to well over 500 and there definitely is not proper hospital or medical care for these people. I would suggest to him that he give the matter consideration, and when we come to the main estimates I hope that he will be able to give me a satisfactory answer that something definitely is to be done for the Indians on that reserve.


Walter Edward Harris: I shall be glad to draw the hon. member's request to the attention of the Minister of National Health and Welfare, who is in charge of that particular branch of Indian administration.
National Gallery of Canada-
555.	Payment to the national gallery purchase account for the purpose of acquiring works of art, in conformity with section 8 of the National Gallery Act-further amount required, $360,000.


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: Mr. Chairman, on this item there is one further question I would like to ask the minister. As I understood the minister's remarks a few moments ago some of these paintings purchased under this item of $360,000 were representative of the Flemish school which had not previously been represented in the national gallery. A short time ago I made some inquiries at the national gallery and I have a list of the paintings purchased prior to the purchase of paintings of the Flemish school. Painting No. 3695 is "Judith with the Head of Holofernes" and there is another painting by Frans Floris, another by Jan Davids de Heem, and yet another. Certainly there are more than 20 other paintings belonging to the Flemish school and I wonder whether the minister was in error in remarks relating to them.


Walter Edward Harris: No, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member will understand that the Flemish school in the artistic sense extended over a lengthy period of time. There were quite a number of variations during that period and this particular painting relates to a period which had not been represented.

Supply-External Affairs


Wallace Bickford (Wally) Nesbitt: That explains the matter, Mr. Chairman. What period does that painting relate to?


Walter Edward Harris: My information is that it relates to the late 1600's.


Mr. Thatcher:: Perhaps it is because I am a socialist and have a socialist background and may not have a true understanding of the arts, but it appears to me that $360,000 is an awful lot of money for four paintings. I do not believe the people in my riding would be very enthusiastic about expenditures of that kind.


Douglas Charles Abbott: A man cannot live by hardware alone.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: The minister may be right, but if I thought my colleagues would support me I would move that this vote be reduced to one dollar. However, I have not consulted them and I will not follow that course on this occasion but I hope the minister will not purchase too many $90,000 paintings in future.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS Department and missions abroad-
556.	To provide for official hospitality-further amount required, $4,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister tell us what this $4,000 was required for? Perhaps I should say what will it be required for?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is an item in the estimates for external affairs which covers hospitality. In the course of this year that vote was overrun and we had to provide for an additional amount out of unforeseen expenditures to provide for official hospitality up to the end of March 1954. Total expenditure for official hospitality up to January 31, 1954, including the visit of President Eisenhower to Canada, amounted to $20,690 and the supplementary estimate is in order to reimburse the Department of Finance for the cash we had to take out of the miscellaneous minor unforeseen expenditure fund in order to meet these expenses. It is difficult to estimate with strict accuracy what may be expended for this purpose during the year. It is a relatively modest amount, I believe, considering the number of distinguished visitors we have in Ottawa these days. This amount of $4,000 is additional to the $20,000 considered in the main estimates.


Mr. Regier:: Am I correct in understanding that all we spent on extending hospitality on behalf of the Department of External Affairs during the course of the year amounted to about $20,000?
rMr. Harris.]


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


Erhart Regier: We spent $360,000 on four paintings and only $20,000 in acts of hospitality.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-terminable services-
557.	Contribution to the United Nations relief and works agency for Palestine refugees in the Near East, $500,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, on this item I should like to ask whether this expenditure is made under United Nations direction?


Douglas Charles Abbott: While the United Nations
relief and works agency for Palestine refugees has funds on hand earmarked for its resettlement program it has no reserve for its program of relief for the 850,000-odd refugees that it cares for. The negotiating committee for extra budgetary funds has, therefore, been requested by the general assembly to seek the additional funds required from various governments and has called upon Canada to indicate the extent of its financial support for the agency's activities for the year 1953-54. Cabinet has now agreed that due to the present state of tension in the eastern Mediterranean area as well as for strategic, political and humanitarian reasons, Canada should make a contribution of $500,000 to the agency's 1953-54 relief program. The committee made the same contribution last year and it was estimated we would be making one this year but the amount had not been settled until, as I have indicated, this appeal was made.


Mr. Mclvor:: Mr. Chairman, I would like
to ask the minister if this item of $500,000 is related only to the Colombo plan or if it is extra. If there are extra amounts involved I think that should be known.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Mr. Chairman, this amount
has no connection with the Colombo plan; it is extra.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I think that is most commendable, Mr. Chairman.


Edward George McCullough: Mr. Chairman, in respect to the agencies carrying out the distribution of this assistance, I would like to know whether they are actually United Nations organizations, or whether they are private or civilian welfare agencies.


Mr. Pearson:: Mr. Chairman, possibly I
can answer that. The agency is connected with the United Nations.


Edward George McCullough: One
further question, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the other three votes. The first is

assistance for reconstruction and rehabilitation in Greece. The next is to provide famine relief for Pakistan and the third is to provide flood relief for Japan. In all three instances which agencies will undertake the distribution of this assistance?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In the case of Greece the
supplies are made available to the Greek government. In connection with Pakistan the supplies also were made available through the government of Pakistan. As regards flood relief for Japan I am not too sure about that but I believe that would be arranged through the Japanese government or the Red Cross, but I am not positive.


Edward George McCullough: I
wonder if the minister could tell the committee whether or not the government is fairly certain that these supplies reach the people to whom we want to give assistance and that there is no black market in regard to the distribution of these goods?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Our representatives in the
countries concerned do their best to see that these goods involved in humanitarian enterprises in the case of Greece and Pakistan are distributed through the governments of these countries. I believe we must take it for granted that the relief is properly handled.


Mr. Noseworihy:: Does this $5 million cover the cost of the first shipment to Pakistan, or does it cover the total amount of the shipments made to date?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That represents the total cost of wheat shipped to Pakistan.


Mr. Stick:: Is that $5 million to Pakistan part of the Colombo plan?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. The wheat was originally made available out of the Colombo plan vote and this vote is to reimburse the Colombo plan vote.


Hazen Robert Argue: How many bushels of wheat does that cover and what was the price?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I have not that information here.


Hazen Robert Argue: Can the minister of external
affairs say whether the discussions which led to the granting of this gift were between Canada and the United States, or confined to Canada and Pakistan?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Discussion was between the Pakistan and the Canadian governments on this particular matter; but we did, of course, know that similar discussions were going on between Pakistan and the United States for help in this same emergency.


Mr. Harkness:: From what the minister has said, I understand that this wheat has already
Supply-External Affairs been shipped. Will he tell us when that wheat was shipped or, in other words, out of what group of statistics we now have as to available stocks, disappearance and so forth, did this $5 million come?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It was in the spring of 1953. I have not the exact date.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It is nearly a year ago now?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall items 557 to 560
inclusive carry?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No, Mr. Chairman. Have you called them as a group?


William Alfred Robinson: They have been discussed as a group.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I was waiting until item 559 was reached, but since you are calling them as a group, I can make my comment now. Terminable services-
559.	To provide for a gift of wheat as a contribution to famine relief for Pakistan, $5,000,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: From what has been said already when we were discussing the previous items, I think it is clear that the committee is pleased to have the opportunity to vote this sum of money. We are pleased to know that it is an addition to what we are doing by way of aid to that part of the world under the Colombo plan and under United Nations technical assistance programs. This gives me the opportunity-if I might take half a minute to do so and since Pakistan is part of Asia-to commend the Secretary of State for External Affairs for the speech he is reported to have made over the week end urging the importance of our learning to live with and to get along with the peoples of Asia. As I listened to the report of the speech he made I felt it was one that he might well make at the next meeting of the cabinet.


Hugh Alexander Bryson: As a matter of information, may I ask the minister what agency is responsible for this barley-for-Korea drive that is going on in the city of Ottawa among the school children?


Douglas Charles Abbott: What was my hon. friend's question again?


Hugh Alexander Bryson: What agency is carrying out and is responsible for the details involved in this barley-for-Korea drive to which the school children are being asked to subscribe 20 cents?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I do not know. I will make some inquiries and see whether I can find out. It does not come under this item in any event.


[Stage Direction]
Items agreed to.
3422	HOUSE OF
Supply-Finance
560.	To provide for a gift of food as a contribution to flood relief for Japan, $50,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is that the total amount of our gift or is that supplemental to a larger one?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. That is the total amount.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It does not seem to be a very magnificent gift. What was the total amount?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not know that either. This was the recommendation. This was a voluntary fund. It was not a government fund.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE General administration-
561.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $5,800.
Joseph William Noseworthy: I take it that this is a fairly general item, the administration of the Department of Finance, and I hope the matter I want to bring to the minister's attention is in order. First of all, I want to point out that the Department of Finance, through the Bank of Canada, is interested in our banking system and, through the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act, is interested in gold mining. The matter I want to call to his attention is a report in this morning's Globe and Mail to the effect that when the strike at the Hollinger mine was settled there was an agreement to compromise on the question of the check-off to the extent that there was to be what was known as a bank check-off. Hollinger was to send cheques to the bank. The bank was to agree that any employee who so desired might have his union dues deducted and paid directly to the union by the bank. In this morning's Globe and Mail there is a report to the effect that while that practice was in effect before the strike, it has been discontinued since the strike ended and that none of the eight district banks have so far been induced to participate in that compromise agreement. I wonder whether the minister wants to comment on that matter, seeing it affects his department?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have not any information about it, but it has nothing to do with the administration of the Department of Finance. It is purely a matter of internal management of the banks, as far as I can see.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
562.	Comptroller of the treasury-central office and branch offices administration-further amount required, $220,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: One can quite understand that, in item 561, there might be a small


amount like $5,800 required for further administration expenses, but I find it a little bit difficult to understand why the comptroller of the treasury should find that he needs a further $220,000.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I can relieve my hon. friend's mind at once. It is entirely owing to raises in salaries, revision of salaries; and it covers only part of it. That is the complete answer. There was a little bit left in the vote, but the revision of the salaries requires this whole $220,000 and more besides.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The only thing I can suggest is that if that fact had been stated, the minister would have been saved my question.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Perhaps I might help a bit here. A good many of these items scattered through the estimates are due almost entirely to the upward revision in the salary rates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of various acts and costs of special functions-
563.	Superannuation and retirement acts, administration-further amount required, $132,404.
Mr. Green:: I should like to ask the minister what decision was reached with regard to the civil servants who had been in the old department of soldiers' civil re-establishment. As the minister will recall, there was quite a lengthy discussion last session, some of us contending that these particular officials were not receiving adequate consideration with regard to their superannuation. The minister promised to have each individual case looked into. I now find that in at least two of the cases I raised from Vancouver there have been adverse decisions, although the persons had been in the service for over thirty years. Will the minister tell us on what basis the department is acting in connection with these cases?


Douglas Charles Abbott: From memory I am not able to do so today. As I promised when this main item was under discussion last year, the superannuation branch has made an investigation of each individual case of these employees who are affected and has made a report to me. As a result of that investigation the conclusion was reached that the contention of the vast majority of these employees that they were entitled to the five-year average and not the ten-year average-which is what it boils down to-for superannuation purposes, was not justified and could not be granted.
I have prepared a memorandum, which I have sent to a number of members who are interested in the question, outlining the particulars of the investigation which was made. I will come prepared to discuss it fully and

in detail when the main item comes up in my estimates or if the question of superannuation is before the house at some other time. But I may say quite frankly that I had not come prepared today to go into that detail. Broadly speaking, I can give my hon. friend the general statement that only in a few cases was the conclusion reached that these employees were entitled to the five-year basis as against the ten-year basis.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: There is no intention then to make any amendments to the act?


Douglas Charles Abbott: To cover them-no. The conclusion I reached, after studying the report I was given, was that they were in no different position from that of a great many other civil servants who are still subject to the ten-year average.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I have a copy of the minister's letter and I am glad it can be discussed again because it does seem to me that these men are being made the victims of what 1 think is a more technical view than I would usually expect the minister to take. I take it we can discuss the matter later.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I would be happy to do that. This has come up before. It came up ten or fifteen years ago. A ruling was made then and it has been adhered to ever since. I agree with my friend that it is a complicated situation, and in some cases there may be some apparent inequities. I shall be glad to discuss it when I am a little better supplied with my basic material than I am at the moment.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hope that the minister will also be supplied with basic material and a little more kindness of heart toward the question of the retired civil servants who are on low pensions when we reach the corresponding item again later in the session. I will not take the time of the committee now because we had a discussion of this matter on March 2. However, I do want to tell the minister that his statement on that day, which was interpreted by some as an attempt on the minister's part to close the door on this question, has certainly not satisfied those who are interested. When I refer to those who are interested I have in mind not only the superannuated civil servants themselves, particularly those in the lower brackets, but a great many others who are interested in them and feel that their case has not yet been accorded the justice it deserves. I appreciate the fact that the minister probably has not had a change of heart in the short time since the 2nd of March, but I hope that before the end of this session he will 83276-217i
Supply-Finance
have that change of heart and will take a different attitude towards this problem.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When the warm weather comes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is a serious problem affecting a great many, and it seems to me that the good name of the government is at stake in its attitude towards its former employees. I hope the minister will be prepared to discuss this matter in a different vein the next time it is raised in the house.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
564.	To authorize and provide for adjustment payments in respect of subsidies previously paid and administrative expenses incurred by:	(a) Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation Ltd., and (b) the Minister of Finance on behalf of Her Majesty, pursuant to the agreement entered into between the said corporation and Her Majesty on the 25th day of June, 1953, under the authority of order in council P.C. 1953-868 dated the 1st day of June, 1953, $310,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister give a word of explanation about item 564? What I should like to have is a word about the history of the corporation since the war. The last report of the corporation I have been able to get is that of 1946.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation, as my hon. friend will recall, was one of the agencies set up by the government in connection with the price control program to administer subsidies and the like. Since the end of the war it has been on a liquidating basis. It has simply been kept in existence in order to pay off outstanding claims. In June of last year an order in council was passed stating that the C.P.S.C. had fulfilled its purpose and it was directed to surrender its charter. All assets were to be transferred to Her Majesty and provision was made for the discharge of outstanding liabilities. The Minister of Finance was authorized accordingly to execute an agreement with the company which provided -I will not go into all the details-for the payment over of moneys to the crown and the crown was to dispose of these moneys first by paying all outstanding liabilities, second, by paying any claim that might be made by Joy Oil Limited, which was the largest claim outstanding and which was under litigation, and third, by paying the government the balance of advances to the company.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is it practically cleaned up?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is practically cleaned up. I think this will perhaps be as close to the final clean-up as possible. The Joy Oil claim has now been settled. There are sundry

Supply-Finance
administrative expenses which have been incurred by the crown and the vote of $310,000 is required for the administrative expenses together with the Joy Oil settlement and to allow for any further minor payments that may come up during the current fiscal year, the year which will end in the next day or two.
To give an indication of the way the assets of the former corporation stand, of accounts receivable of $72,207.70, $4,027.78 has been collected, leaving uncollected accounts at $68,179.92. As the committee will appreciate, these accounts have been outstanding for a very considerable time, and I would not place a very high value on them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
565.	Grants to municipalities in lieu of taxes on federal property-To provide for payments to municipalities in accordance with the Municipal Grants Act, and the rural municipal grants regulations established by order in council of August 6, 1952, P.C. 3729; and to provide for payments to municipalities under order in council of July 19, 1950, P.C. 3456, in respect of the cost of medical and hospital services and supplies furnished to federal employees and other persons specified therein-further amount required including authority to regard the admiralty properties in the city of St. John's, Newfoundland, as federal property notwithstanding that formal transfer of administration has not been completed, $343,733.
Mr. Ellis:: Would the minister outline the formula by which grants are made to municipalities under the Municipal Grants Act?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I could do that, but I wonder if my hon. friend would be content to allow his question to stand. On the order paper I have a resolution preceding the introduction of a bill to amend the Municipal Grants Act which I hope we will be dealing with next week. I am going to make a rather full statement at that time both with respect to present policy and the contemplated changes. If it meets my hon. friend's convenience, I would prefer to do it then, but if he wants a brief explanation now I would be happy to give it to him.


Alfred Claude Ellis: I think that will be satisfactory. I merely wanted the explanation before we came to the main estimates.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I hope, if the house leader so arranges it, to reach the amendments to the Municipal Grants Act next week some time, and at that time I hope we may have a full discussion of the whole problem.


Alfred Claude Ellis: That will be quite satisfactory.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I should add that this vote is simply to implement existing policy.


Leonard T. Stick: There is a reference to "further amount required including authority to regard the admiralty properties in the city

of St. John's, Newfoundland, as federal property". What was the total amount paid for the admiralty properties?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I will see if I have that here.


Leonard T. Stick: Will this finish the payments to Great Britain on that account?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I do not have that breakdown here but I will have it when we debate the main item. Total payments in St. John's, Newfoundland, in 1953-54 are $15,741, but I do not have the detail here as to how that is broken down.


Leonard T. Stick: You can give it to me some other time.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I will do it when we are on the Municipal Grants Act.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to read the last part of this item. It reads:
. . . further amount required including authority to regard the admiralty properties in the city of St. John's, Newfoundland, as federal property notwithstanding that formal transfer of administration has not been completed.
I am a little confused about that. I know that occasionally in this committee we have what is called legislation by item, but up to the present time I have understood that if there was doubt finally whether there was any authority for the item, which has happened on one or two occasions, once it was voted here that settled the matter anyhow. But does this mean that we are conveying title to property by item?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, that is under discussion. That admiralty property is property in St. John's, Newfoundland, which belongs to the British admiralty, as I remember it, and has for a great many years. We are occupying it and I dare say may be renting some of it. The purpose of this item is to make it clear that we can base our tax grant to the city of St. John's on that property as well as property to which we already have title. So far as that property is concerned, discussions for the transfer of title to the crown in the right of Canada are still proceeding, but we are using it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: But it is your full intention to acquire it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Oh, it is understood we are going to acquire it. It is just that the legal details have not been worked out yet.


Mr. White (Middlesex East):: As this is a supplementary item, what was the total amount?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The total amount this year, including this item, will be $3,045,083.


Mr. While (Middlesex Easl):: Was there
any payment to the city of London or the township of Westminster?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I find London, section 6 grants, $7,726. I do not see the other, but I will check on that when we have the main bill before the committee. The grant to the city of London to which I referred was a section 6 grant, one of the transitional grants.


Edward George McCullough: I
notice that this vote in the supplementary estimates is for $343,000, and that under the vote in the main estimates this item amounted to $3,190,000, or an increase of $488,700 without the additional vote which we are now discussing. I notice, sir, that this vote is for grants to municipalities in lieu of taxes on federal property and to provide for payments to municipalities in accordance with the Municipal Grants Act and the rural municipal grants regulations. I should like to ask the minister whether or not this formula for grants was determined in consultation with municipal bodies or whether it was established at the discretion of the federal cabinet? Will the minister, in answering that question, also state whether or not the government intends increasing the grants or holding further consultations with municipalities. I know that municipal financing is in dire straits today, and all our municipal bodies are insisting that they have to have additional revenue in order to carry on municipal responsibilities.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I know that the hon. member has a very valuable contribution to make on this subject, but as I indicated a moment ago in reply to the hon. member for Regina City I shall shortly be introducing a bill to revise the Municipal Grants Act and make it somewhat more favourable. At that time, I hope we shall have a complete discussion on these grants by the federal government to municipalities. At that time I shall come armed with all the ammunition I can get together to answer these questions.
The present vote is merely to supplement the moneys already voted in order to carry out existing policy which is set forth in two places in the Municipal Grants Act, and in the item in last year's estimates permitting grants to rural municipalities. The grants to rural municipalities are, as all these grants are, on an ex gratia basis to compensate for the loss to the municipality because of the
Supply-Finance
fact that military establishments, which are completely self-supporting and require no municipal services, are located there. They may use the roads or something of that sort. I shall have complete information on that type of grant, as well as the other, when X discuss the proposed bill because I am incorporating that provision in the bill.


Edward George McCullough: I should like to ask the minister if representations have been made by rural municipalities or other bodies for further federal assistance?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not believe they have. The municipalities are the creatures of and dependent upon and derive their powers from the provinces. Any representations they have to make should be made to their respective provinces, and then if the province wishes to make submissions to the federal government, that is the proper way to do it. Speaking generally, I think it is not appropriate for the federal government to enter into financial negotiations with municipalities over which they have no control and over which they have no legislative jurisdiction.


Edward George McCullough: Have the provinces on behalf of the municipalities under their respective jurisdictions asked for federal assistance under the Municipal Grants Act?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Not so far as I am aware, Mr. Chairman.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the minister one other question? When this matter is under further discussion and the minister, as he says, is more fully armed to discuss it, will that discussion include the question as to which assessment the government accepts? I believe at the present time the federal authority does not accept-


Douglas Charles Abbott: Does not, and in future it will not accept. One of the fundamental principles of this is, and always has been, that the federal government, since the grants are ex gratia payments, cannot and does not intend to submit to having an assessment made locally. In point of fact, what has been done is that the valuations have been determined after discussion and consultation with the local authorities. Under the amended act, as under the present act, assessments will continue to be made by the federal government.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I take it from what the minister just said we will be in a position to discuss this matter when the bill comes before us, but that the decision has already been made.

Supply-Finance


Douglas Charles Abbott: The government is under obligation to make that decision, of course, because it is introducing the bill.


Edward George McCullough: Is
there any proposed meeting between the federal and provincial authorities in the near future at which this might be discussed?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Where?


Edward George McCullough: A
meeting between the provincial authorities and the federal authorities, at which municipal finance may come up?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Well, the federal government is willing to listen to representations made by any provincial government. The door is always open. As a matter of fact, they are doing it most of the time, during my eight or nine years of experience on this job. The provincial governments, or most of them, are never reluctant to come forward and ask the federal government for money.


Mr. Adamson:: Might I ask the minister if this includes any payment to the township of Toronto in lieu of the A. V. Roe Company?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I could not answer that question offhand. I would appreciate it if we could defer detailed discussion of this question of municipal grants until next week, when I hope to have the new act under discussion. As the member for Winnipeg North Centre has said, I shall come better armed to discuss this question.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That suits me. I have just come back from Toronto where the question of the taxation of the A. V. Roe Company is a very lively one.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
566.	To authorize the write-off to the consolidated deficit account of costs incurred in 1951 in engraving blank bonds in anticipation of a loan which did not materialize, $11,200.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister say a word about what is the make-up of the consolidated deficit fund? Will he tell us why this matter is coming up so late-years after 1951, and just how much there is, and if there are any other skeletons in the cupboard?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I cannot give any blanket assurance that there are not other items or other matters in the cupboard or elsewhere that may have to be the subject of a vote such as this one. This is a write-off to

the consolidated deficit account that will be incurred upon the destruction of blank bonds, and is necessary in order to delete the costs from the books and in order that the balance in the blank bonds reserve account will reflect the true asset value of the account. It is essential to have an item such as this, as my hon. friend will appreciate. These bonds were printed and charged to this account, this blank bonds reserve account. Now, it is found they are not needed or they are no longer needed, so we are asking for authority to write them off.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not want to ask for information which is available already, but was the abandonment of this loan advised at the time or is it a matter we might be informed about now?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This amount of $11,200 represents the engraving cost of seventy thousand $1,000 coupon bond tints furnished by the Canadian Bank Note Company in 1951. There are fifty coupons attached and the bonds would be available only for replacement bonds of the long-term twenty-five year issue of January 15, 1953. The bonds are of no further use and the Bank of Canada has asked that they be allowed to advise the bank note company to destroy them.
I suppose that one may say, by hindsight, that it was unnecessary to order them.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I believe we had an item similar to this a year or so ago.


Douglas Charles Abbott: They are always coming up.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the minister not know in advance how many more he will be bringing in?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I perhaps should, but they are only called to my attention from time to time. They are matters of administration, and when they are brought to my attention and it is suggested the bonds are no longer of any use, then we should have an item authorizing the write-off. That seems to be the appropriate thing to do.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Does this mean that the government spent $11,200 in engraving bonds that were never used?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is just what it is, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
567.	To authorize the write-off from non-active assets to the consolidated deficit account of the net trading loss in the securities investment account incurred prior to April 1, 1952 ($40,072.79), $1.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister say a word about the trading loss in the securities investment account? We are aware that the

Bank of Canada deals in the bond market; but what is the securities investment account?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is the account in which the government purchases bonds for its own account.
In 1952-53, the amount of trading loss of $40,072.79 in the securities investment account was written down in the finance books to non-active assets and accordingly constituted an expenditure charge in arriving at the budgetary surplus or decrease in net debt for the year. The purpose of this dollar item is merely to provide the necessary authority to write-off this non-active asset to the consolidated deficit account; it will therefore not involve any effect on the budgetary situation for 1953-54, nor on the net debt. Since it has already been written into the net debt and appears on the balance sheet as a non-active asset-this, in short, will permit writing it into the consolidated deficit account section from the capital and other non-active assets section of the net debt.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: In other words, this is a hazard that you take when you invest your money and get a return on it, rather than let it lie idle?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
568.	Government contribution to the superannuation account in respect of additional liability consequent upon the salary increases effective December 1, 1953, $38,000,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: As I indicated a few minutes ago, it is not my purpose to initiate at this sitting a general discussion as to the position of retired civil servants. I do think however that another word might be said. Personally, I am glad to see the government taking whatever steps are necessary, such as this one, to keep the superannuation account in good shape, so that the good pension plan that civil servants working for the government now have will be retained in a proper position. But I think some day the minister will have to appreciate the position of retired civil servants who, when they learn that $38,000,000 is being found by the treasury for this purpose, will wonder why it is that some corresponding sum of money, or perhaps less than that, could not be found to relieve their situation.
The minister does not seem to feel the force of arguments of this kind; but certainly that is the way these people feel. They have served the federal government in the past and are receiving low pensions. I hope that one of these days, perhaps even before the present Minister of Finance lays down this
Supply-Fisheries
portfolio, there might be an item in the estimates to cover the plight of these people.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This item is merely to keep the fund solvent, not to add additional liabilities to it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I realize that. As I said earlier, I am glad to see the government taking whatever steps are necessary to keep the fund solvent so that the position of those who are now working in the civil service and in the public service generally will be protected. But I submit there is still an obligation to these other people, as well. As one of my colleagues suggested, let us keep them solvent too.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
569.	Amount required to recoup the fisheries prices support account to cover net operating loss of the fisheries prices support board during the fiscal year 1952-53, $36,526.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: Would the minister give a breakdown of this item?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The breakdown is as follows: Newfoundland shore-caught salted codfish support program, 1952-53, deficiency payments to producers, $37,903.52. This item also covers Labrador salted codfish support program, refund from board's agents, adjustment of total payments as of March 31, 1952, $1,658.68, and an additional deficiency payment to the producers of semi-dry cure of $280.29. That is a total of $1,378.39, and that makes a net loss on the 1952-53 operation of $36,525.13.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Do I understand that that all goes to Newfoundland?


Douglas Charles Abbott: And Labrador and, I believe, the north shore of Quebec. That is for salted cod.


Leonard T. Stick: Is that the final amount on the Labrador cure?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is the final, I believe so, yes.


Hazen Robert Argue: When the administration is buying and selling the fish for which this subsidy is being paid, has it any control over the fishing operations that have resulted in the subsidy being paid?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Perhaps the Acting Minister of Fisheries could answer that.


Mr. Pickersgill:: I am not, strictly speaking, the Acting Minister of Fisheries. However, so far as Newfoundland salt codfish is concerned, at confederation an arrangement was made for five years by which Newfoundland Associated Fish Exporters Limited, under term 22 of the terms of union, was given a

Supply-Fisheries
monopoly of the export of salt fish. This company is under the control of the Newfoundland fisheries board, under an act of the commission of government-which I happen to have in my hand, by pure accident, at this very moment. So that there is indirect supervision now by the federal government through the Newfoundland fisheries board over these transactions. But these are deficiency payments direct to the fishermen, after the transactions were completed.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Does it apply only to Newfoundland?


John Whitney Pickersgill: No, there are other areas to which floor prices legislation applies.


Hazen Robert Argue: Is there anything to prevent applying this type of legislation to the fishing industry in other provinces, or is there some special reason why it is applied only to Newfoundland?


John Whitney Pickersgill: The Fisheries Prices Support Act applies to all the fisheries of all the provinces. But the way it was used in Newfoundland was to make deficiency payments after the transactions for the year had been completed. There has been fisheries prices support given in nearly every province, including that of the hon. member who has asked the question.


Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to have this cleared up. Is it possible legally that the technique used in connection with Newfoundland fish could be used in connection with fish from other provinces?


John Whitney Pickersgill: For the sale of them?


Hazen Robert Argue: Yes.


John Whitney Pickersgill: That is a hypothetical question. I do not think I can answer it.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I cannot, either.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Would the Secretary of State tell us to what extent the fishermen themselves benefit from the federal subsidy, and to what extent the benefits are received by the merchants selling the fish.


John Whitney Pickersgill: This relates to something that happened two years ago: it is just to balance up the books. I understand these deficiency payments were made to the fishermen, and to the fishermen only-and made direct to the fishermen.


Leonard T. Stick: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
570.	Combines Investigation Act-office for investigation and research-further amount required, $65,000.
Edward George McCullough: I
believe that today we need an extension of the act and the work carried on under its provisions. Today in the cattle trade the prices of hides are going down to ruinous levels, so far as the producers of livestock are concerned. Three or four years ago we were getting $16 to $18 for a cowhide. Today it is hardly worth shipping it out to the tanners. I hold in my hand two articles appearing in-


Douglas Charles Abbott: Mr. Chairman, can we not deal with this when the Minister of Justice is here to speak on the Combines Investigation Act? This is to provide for what the item says, unforeseen expenses not known when the main estimates were put in.


Edward George McCullough: I just want to say a word or two.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Surely, it can be related to the item.


Edward George McCullough: I want to put an argument before the committee to show that we do need an extension of the work of the combines investigation branch. I have already told the committee that we have a situation in regard to hides that shows that the prices are going down, and yet the public is still forced to pay an extremely high price for leather products. It is up to the government to look into some of these matters and not leave the field wide open so that there may be price fixing for long periods of time before anything is done about it. I refer particularly to the leather trades. Recently articles have appeared in the press -I have an item here about one saddlery firm which shows that the profits this year were 17 per cent over last year-


The Deputy Chairman:: Order. I have let the hon. gentleman make his point, but I should remind the committee that we are discussing supplementary estimates, the items for which sufficient funds were not voted at the time that the main estimates for the year now closing went through. As hon. members know, there is not an item that will not be open for discussion when the main estimates go through and when the various ministers with their advisers will be present for questioning by the committee. I am going to ask the hon. member and other members of the committee to confine their questions strictly to the amounts we are now voting and not to amounts which do not appear in the supplementary estimates.


Mr. Maclnnis:: I do not rise, Mr. Chairman, to maintain that we should have a wider attitude on the discussion. I have not said anything this afternoon and I doubt whether there is anything I want to say. I realize that the main estimates are still before us and that anything we have to say can be better said at that time than now; but I should not like it to be taken that we are restricted. We may be restricted to the item, but this item pretty well covers every other item under the Combines Investigation Act, under that branch of the Department of Justice. I do not think there should be any limit. I just want to make that point. As far as I am concerned personally, I am quite willing to let this item go through and say whatever I may have to say when we are discussing the main estimates.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not quarrel with that position. I indicated that the main line of inquiry in the consideration of these estimates should be directed to why we require this extra money, because almost any major item involves the whole policy of that particular section, and perhaps we should have half a dozen debates on that during the year. I do not know. But it does not -make for very orderly debate.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: If the minister will permit me I should like to raise one question. I shall take only sixty seconds. I believe this particular item has to do with the hiring of legal counsel. Much of their work has to do with the law abolishing resale price maintenance, which was passed by parliament last year. Many people were a little bit afraid at that time. I must admit that I was one of them. We feared that abolition would permit an open door as far as loss leaders were concerned. However the Minister of Justice gave parliament the assurance that if loss leaders by departmental stores or by chain stores became serious, the government would take some action. I am not going into the question today, except to say that in my opinion the time for such action has come. Today in many fields of the retail business there are bankruptcies because of loss leadering by large companies. We also find that the quality of certain lines of merchandise manufactured in Canada has been deteriorated, so that manufacturers can compete as far as prices are concerned. The situation is sufficiently serious for the government to give consideration to implementing the pledge made a year or so ago, when price maintenance was abolished. If they do not, the smaller business people across the country, who after all are the backbone of many communities, will soon be in real difficulties.
Supply-Justice


Mr. Winch:: I have a question to ask on this item. I understand that when an inquiry is made it is usually made by a royal commission, of course. A report is sent to the Department of Justice together with a transcript of all the evidence upon which the report is made. The government then has the report and the evidence, and before they do anything about it they hire outside counsel. I understand that the fees paid to these outside counsel run anywhere from $150 to $300 a day. At the same time the government has its own staff and all the information. Is it because of this practice of going out and getting outside counsel that this additional amount of $65,000 is required? Could we not, in the interests of a little economy, review that policy and still maintain efficiency?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This additional amount to the extent actually of $51,500 is required because of fees and expenses of legal counsel, accountants, special assistants, reporters, special commissioners and witnesses arising out of rather numerous investigations and prosecutions which have taken place this year. It is the practice, as I understand it, to retain outside counsel to assist in these prosecutions and to advise in connection with them. Personally, I think it is desirable; but even if it were to be done by the government's own legal staff it would be necessary to increase considerably those staffs, because I know from personal experience that the lawyers in the Department of Justice are pretty well overworked as it is now. My own personal view is that nothing would be saved by enlarging the legal staff of the Department of Justice; that it is more economical and in some respects more satisfactory to retain outside counsel in each particular case.


Harold Edward Winch: If you increased the staff would you pay them the $200 a day that you pay for outside counsel now?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I know what we have to pay to keep our lawyers and we are not keeping some of them; they are going outside. Probably we are not paying them enough.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
571.	Expenses of committee appointed to advise on principles and procedures relating to remission service, $1,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I have no objection to this item, but in view of what the Minister of Finance has said a number of times during the discussion of these items it should be pointed out that not all these items in the supplementaries were in the main estimates.


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, there is the occasional one.

Supply


Stanley Howard Knowles: About one-third of them thus far.


Douglas Charles Abbott: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: This is an example of a brand new item.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is a new item because there was not a sufficient amount in the general vote of the Department of Justice to provide for these expenses; but the appointment of some of them to do this job requires no legislative authority.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It is not a new committee?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is a new committee, yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I have no objection.


Douglas Charles Abbott: It was announced in the house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I just thought the minister should not argue against the debate that has taken place on several of these items.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I would not have argued if my hon. friend had wanted to ask these questions. I repeat what I said at the outset, that most of the items here involve no new policy at all, and that is the case with this one.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-
573. Administration-further amount required, $571,625.
Stanley Howard Knowles: What is the reason for this additional amount for the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is entirely an increase in salary costs.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is none of it involved in research on the possibility of increasing the rates of benefits paid under unemployment insurance?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Not at all; all of it is a result of increases in salaries which parliament has authorized.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Has the minister any figures to show what salaries are paid to the branch managers?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I have not here; I have only the totals.


Joseph William Noseworthy: We shall be able to get that later?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have only the totals.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I would like to ask the minister if there have been any increases in the staffs of the unemployment offices across the country.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I understand there have been but I have not the details.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: This would be to pay for that, I presume?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
579. General administration-estimates of the Clerk-further amount required, $213,500.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Can the minister explain the reason for this somewhat extensive increase amounting to nearly $250,000?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The additional expenditures are $200,000 for the publishing of debates. It may be that debates are somewhat more extended than they used to be. Office stationery, supplies and equipment amount to $13,500 making this total of $213,500.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND TECHNICAL SURVEYS Dominion coal board-
582. Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council-further amount required, $2,370,700.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: I would like to ask the minister whether this covers subventions and if he would give us a breakdown of the figures?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. The main estimates contain an item of $6,078,300, and the main supplementary estimates an item of $2,220,000 plus this item of $2,370,700. The total of $10,669,000 is broken down by provinces and I have the breakdown here. Nova Scotia, all rail, amounts to $541,000; transshipped $625,000-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: By that you mean subventions paid?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. That is the amount to be paid out of the treasury in connection with the movement of maritime coal. Water-borne costs amount to $4,596,000; water-borne audit adjustment $260,000; railway use $1,555,000; New Brunswick all rail $5,500; Saskatchewan all rail $185,000; under Alberta: Ontario west $42,000-that is the destination of the coal, of course-Ontario east $373,000; railway use $2,475,000; British Columbia, ships bunkers $1,500 and export $10,000; making a total of $10,669,000, an increase over estimates already authorized of $2,370,700.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: As I understand it New Brunswick gets $5,500 out of approximately $10 million?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

National research council and atomic energy control board-
National research council-
585. Salaries and other expenses-further amount required including authority for additional expenditures from revenues derived from publications, laboratory fees, plant engineering, shop work and the conduct of its operations generally, $1.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps the minister could offer a word of explanation. I believe these dollar items should be looked at more carefully than some of the larger ones. This item covering an amount of one dollar seems to be required for two purposes which I suppose could be a matter of 50 cents each. The amount is required for salaries and other expenses and for certain other transactions. I am sure the purpose of this is not to obtain a further amount of one dollar. If it were the minister could surely provide it from his own pocket. Perhaps the minister can explain.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The explanation is that the amount of the estimates approved by parliament included an amount of $500,000 to be provided from revenue for salaries and other expenses. There now appears to be some question as to council's authority to make any expenditure from revenue. The purpose of this supplementary estimate is to obtain parliamentary authorization for the council to make expenditures for salaries and other expenses from revenue derived from such operations as publications, laboratory fees, plant engineering, shop work and the conduct of its operations generally in connection with the Research Council Act now under consideration which will become effective before the end of the fiscal year. This is clearly an example of the use of the one dollar item to which I do not share the objection raised in most cases. This is clearly a case in which that kind of item is fully justified.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Without going into the question of legislating by this one dollar item, is it clear that the legislating being done under this dollar item is just for a temporary period?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Just for this current year.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Legislating by an item in the estimates for that purpose is approved by the Auditor General but he does not approve of it being done on a long term basis.


Howard Charles Green: What provisions are being made for similar expenditures from revenue in the fiscal year of 1954-55?
Supply


Douglas Charles Abbott: As I indicated before, there is a bill now before the house amending the Research Council Act which will contain the appropriate provisions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic energy control board-
Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (research program) -
586. Current operation and maintenance-further amount required, $265,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister explain the reason for this additional amount?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This amount of $265,000 is made up as follows: the first item provides for expenses arising out of contributions to the superannuation fund under the terms of the Public Service Superannuation Act in respect of employees; the total amounts to $160,000. The second additional amount is required for the repair of the NRX reactor amounting to $105,000, which makes a total of $265,000.


Howard Charles Green: Will that complete the repairs to the reactor?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think so, Mr. Chairman, but I would not be quite sure about that because we usually try to get that in at the end of the fiscal year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES Forestry operations division-
592. To provide for contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory and reforestation in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces -further amount required, $100,000.
Howard Charles Green: I wonder if we could have an explanation of the purpose for which this $100,000 is to be expended? What distribution has there been between the different provinces not only in regard to this item but of the corresponding item in the main estimates?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The main estimates, as my hon. friend will recall, provide for a total of $1 million. On this supplementary estimate of $100,000 the note I have indicates that during the fiscal years 1951-52 and 195253 the actual payments made to the provinces for inventory and reforestation combined were short of the authorized ceilings by 20 and 16 per cent respectively. Having regard to this experience and in order to avoid the necessity of conferring with the provinces for the negotiation of new individual ceilings, the minister has approved inventory and reforestation programs submitted by the provinces for the fiscal year 1953-54, the federal share of which amounts to about 16 per cent more than the $1,225,000

Supply-Post Office
authorized by treasury board and appropriated by parliament. A reappraisal of the cost of the current year's programs, recently made by the provinces, indicated some reduction in the total cost as compared with the estimates given in their programs. However, according to this latest estimate the appropriation may be exceeded by as much as $100,000. I have not a breakdown of how that is divided between the provinces but that could be obtained. In any case the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources will be able to give them when the corresponding item comes up.


Howard Charles Green: The whole amount is to be spent for inventory?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes, and reforestation.


Howard Charles Green: I believe in the original estimate the amounts were divided between inventory which got by far the largest proportion-


Douglas Charles Abbott: I believe my hon. friend is right. The whole amount is for inventory this year.


Howard Charles Green: Then this $100,000 is for inventory only?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I believe that is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
593. Operations-further	amount required,
Agar Rodney Adamson: I would like to ask the minister whether this amount relates to the post office and in what fashion?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This covers the increased salary costs arising out of the recent salary revision made effective some time ago.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Does it include the extra cost involved in the 40-hour week?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, this includes the higher pay scale put into effect on December 1.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Does it cover the executive officers of the post office?


Douglas Charles Abbott: All employees of the post office.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I regret it is not possible for the Postmaster General to be present. Perhaps the items are being passed faster than he anticipated. I would not wish to detain him for any length of time but I should like to say just a word with respect to the operations of the post office, having in mind in particular that at long last it has been decided to institute the five-day 40-hour week about two days hence. As the Postmaster General is aware, from questions which some

of us have put to him on the orders of the day and from questions which we have put on the order paper, some of which were answered today, a great many complaints are coming to us from employees of the Post Office Department. I take just this moment to make a further plea to the Postmaster General to the effect that the representations of the department's employees should receive greater consideration in working out the plans and arrangements for the five-day 40-hour week than appears to have been given. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction over certain details. For example, there is concern over the arrangements for annual leaves. There is also concern over the change being made so far as the night differential is concerned. Underlying all of these grievances is a basic grievance that these employees have, namely that the decisions are made at the top and are handed to them, and that their representations are not given the consideration which they deserve.
In the Department of Labour there is an excellent labour-management co-operation service. I think the services of that branch of the Department of Labour might be made available to the Post Office Department in order to help them work out these arrangements on a more satisfactory basis. I will not take the time of the committee to go into the matter further now but I plead for further consideration of the representations being made to the department by the post office employees themselves.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS Architectural branch-
596. Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc.-further amount required, $270,000.
Howard Charles Green: I wonder if we may have an explanation of that item?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. This is supplementary to the big vote, the main vote of $18,998,865. A further amount of $43,000 is required for rents and $227,000 for light, power, water and other municipal charges mainly because a greater number of buildings are now occupied by government departments across Canada than anticipated at the time of the estimates and also because of the unexpected increase in some leases and regional increases in public utility service. This is the big operating vote, as my hon. friend knows, under the Department of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: I notice that the bulk of the vote, $227,000, is for light, power, water and other municipal charges. Are there any new

types of municipal charges included in the vote? It seems to be a heavy supplementary vote for payments of that type.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. The total payments, as provided in the estimates, were $1,550,000. The supplementary vote required here is $227,000, or roughly 15 per cent.


Howard Charles Green: Is the department paying any new type of charges to the municipalities?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Not that I know of. This covers general charges. They would be service charges. They would not be taxes, of course. They would be water rates or charges for light, power or something like that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings
[Stage Direction]
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount -within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-further amounts required-
597. Quebec ($420, less the amount of $419 available from savings in other listed projects detailed in previous estimates for 1953-54 for this province), $1.
Howard Charles Green: This is another one of the $1 items. The description makes it appear as though there is $420 required to build a public building, that the department had on hand, in the Quebec vote for buildings, $419, so they now just want $1. That seems almost too good to be true.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is a real economy measure, Mr. Chairman. It was contemplated that a new public building would be erected in Huntingdon and an appropriate item was put in the estimates to prepare plans and acquire a site. Then on re-examination of the situation it was found that it would be satisfactory to extend the present building. The vote which was originally there to prepare plans and so on is sufficient to do that, but of course that does not authorize the doing of it. This item of $1 is to give statutory authorization to do that.


Howard Charles Green: The vote in the present fiscal year, I think, was $25,000.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: Just how do we get from the $25,000 to $420, then to $419 and then to the $1?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The $1 is merely to give statutory authorization to use the $25,000 item for this extension. The $25,000 was an initial item of an estimated cost of $100,000. It now looks as though we shall get a satisfactory
Supply-Public Works
public building in Huntingdon for certainly not more than the $25,000 required for this extension. As I said, an amount of $25,000 was provided in the 1953-54 main estimates towards the cost of constructing a new customs building at Huntingdon, province of Quebec, at a preliminary estimated cost of $100,000. Subsequent to the request from customs for this new building, the Post Office Department advised that they would require an additional 1,071 square feet. Having this in mind, and the fact that the operating and maintenance costs on one building are considerably lower than on two, it was decided to construct an addition to the present public building to provide the necessary accommodation for both customs and post office.


Howard Charles Green: How much was this extension to cost?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not know that I have the full data here.


Howard Charles Green: I still do not see how we get from $25,000 to the $420. The minister has not explained that.


Douglas Charles Abbott: We will not get to the $420. The only explanation I gave was that the $25,000 in this vote for Huntingdon during this current fiscal year is not available legally for the construction of an extension to the existing building but only for the construction of a new building. We have started to extend the existing building and wish to use the $25,000 voted for the cost of that new building towards the cost of that addition to the building.


Howard Charles Green: Why did they put in this figure of $420?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I thought we were discussing the $1 item.


Stanley Howard Knowles: X minus Y equals 1.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Here it is. The note is to this effect. When the estimates were being prepared, on March 1, 1954, treasury board authority had not been obtained for the new contract. It is therefore anticipated that the expenditure of $420 already made for survey and advertising will be the only charge against 1953-54 funds.


Howard Charles Green: Then the $25,000 has already been spent?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No.


Howard Charles Green: How much has been spent? Is it the amount $419 or $420 or $1?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid that I cannot give that information at the moment.

Supply-Public Works


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is one other point. Maybe the minister cannot answer this either. How does he relate the $25,000 that was voted in 1953-54, this $420 we are talking about now and the fact that in the 1954-55 estimates there is an item for the Huntingdon public building of $150,000 which includes a $25,000 revote. Is it now sufficiently confused?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes, I think so. I think it must be, I am afraid I cannot answer the question at the moment. As I say, this is to enable the vote which was put in to authorize the expenditure on the new building to be available for the changed situation. I will have to get the details from the Department of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: The minister suggested there might be some economy, and I was a little startled by that statement.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: I find in the 1954-55 estimates that the amount for this building has gone up from $25,000 to $150,000, so there is not very much economy. That includes a revote of $25,000.


Douglas Charles Abbott: These estimates were prepared of course in the early part of the year. Tenders were received on February 10, 1954, the lowest tender being $116,000, and presumably that is what the extension to the new building will cost, including the additional thousand odd feet of space required by the post office, to provide accommodation for the customs department.


Donald MacInnis: Is it not possible that the $25,000 included last year was not the full cost of the structure it was intended to build but an appropriation for certain preliminary work?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I said it was not.


Donald MacInnis: The $150,000 will come later.


Mr, Abbott:: That is exactly what it is. I mentioned a moment ago that the $25,000 was put in last year as a vote on account of the preliminary estimated cost of $100,000.


Harry Oliver White: This is a rather unusual procedure, and I wonder whether the government is contemplating a similar procedure with respect to the proposed new post office and public building in the city of St. Thomas?


Douglas Charles Abbott: We would not ordinarily have to do this where the plans are changed. It is in order to meet the strictly technical requirements of the original vote. We could have waited and put in a new vote next year. I suppose we could have paid nothing until next year, but some expenditures have been incurred on plans and advertising which

should properly be charged against last year's vote. That is why the dollar item is in here.


Howard Charles Green: Then the mention in the 1954-55 estimates of a revote of $25,000 must be wrong. The estimates for the next fiscal year show that it is a revote of $25,000. That was the full amount of the vote for the present fiscal year. Apparently $420 has been spent somewhere.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am speaking from recollection of what happened when the matter was brought before treasury board, but as I understand it the vote of $25,000 was put in the estimates this year for a new building. No new building was planned. No plans were prepared for a new building. Nothing was done about it, but expenditures were incurred for the preparation of plans and the calling of tenders for an extension to the old building. That was done. There are some moneys owed for that. This dollar item will authorize the expenditure out of the $25,000 voted last year of $400 odd covering these costs, and that is all it is.


Harry Oliver White: The minister did not answer my question. I said that this was a rather unusual procedure and I wondered if they were going to adopt the same procedure in the city of St. Thomas where there has been a bit of a controversy about whether they would use the old post office and old public building there or erect a new one on a site that has already been acquired.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That would be a policy decision on which I would have no information at the moment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-
Graving docks-
599.	Prince Rupert dry dock and shipyard and appurtenant works-additional amount in excess of the sum of $110,000 already authorized by vote 343 of the Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953, for the payment of operating losses and essential repairs, all such payments to be made in respect of operations during the calendar year 1953-further amount required, $103,324.
Donald MacInnis: Together with the $110,000 authorized earlier, this additional vote will mean a total of $213,324 for operation and maintenance. Does any revenue accrue to the government from the operation of this graving dock? Has the minister that information before him?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I believe -there is some revenue but I do not think I have the information here at the moment. The dock is operated by Canadian National Railways. It has been under a management contract from ourselves whereby we pay the deficit. I know the

matter was discussed some time ago and an announcement was made by one of my colleagues not very long ago as to the temporary continuance of the operation of the dock. I do not think I have the figures here on what revenue was received. The deficit from January 1 to December 31,	1953, was
$213,323.43. The main estimates provided $110,000 toward that deficit and the proposed vote here of $103,324 covers the difference.


Mr. Shaw:: May I ask the minister why it is when the sum of $25,000 is appropriated and $420 is spent, the amount spent is not taken out of the $25,000 appropriation approved by parliament and then a revote put in of $25,000 less the $420? Why is that procedure not followed?


Douglas Charles Abbott: My understanding is that the strict language of the original vote would not have permitted this payment, that we have to have the dollar item in order to amend the wording of the original vote. That is all that vote is doing. It is amending the language-that was the information I was given-of the original vote. I am sorry now I ever did it because it would have been quite legal to pay the $420 out of unforeseen and miscellaneous, but being so scrupulous we followed this procedure.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I wonder if this mysterious $419-


Edward Turney Applewhaite: Order. In order that we may put ourselves in order, may I say that we have called and discussed item 599. Does the committee wish to go back to item 597?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No. We can deal with the same point on item 600.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects-further amount required-
600.	Quebec ($17,000, less the amount of $16,999 available from savings in other listed projects detailed in previous estimates for 1953-54 for this province), $1.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Here is another of these X minus Y equals $1 items, only in this instance instead of X being $420 X is $17,000. Perhaps the minister would give an explanation. Before he does so, may I say on this item what I rose a moment ago to say about the other one, that it looks to me as though the saving in the previous case of $419 was not necessarily out of the $25,000 and that in this
Supply-Public Works
case the saving of $16,999 is not necessarily out of one particular item but out of any number of projects listed under a general heading.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. Here is the explanation. Treasury board minute 464,852, dated January 22, 1954, approved entry into a contract with Captain J. Romeo Allard at $15,710, the lowest of three tenders, for the widening of a section of the wharf at Cross Point chargeable to the allotment of $42,500 for "Cross Point- extension to jetties." That would be a vote in the main estimates. The jetties referred to in the title of that allotment are actually wings of, and form a part of, the wharf which was to be widened. In view of the urgency of carrying out the widening during the winter months when the ferry service was suspended, there was justification for temporarily charging the cost to the unexpended balance of that allotment.
This item now requested in the further supplementary estimates is merely to cover any possible criticism with respect to the propriety of charging a widening of the wharf to an allotment worded "extension to jetties." You can see how scrupulous we are. The wharf at Cross Point has to bear very intense traffic on account of the ferry service between this wharf and Campbellton, New Brunswick. From the slipway to the shore end the structure is only 20 feet wide and the motorized traffic is congested near the slipway at each ferry boat trip by taxis and other cars trying to turn around or find a parking space. The widening was required to solve this problem and prevent accidents.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I might say that the proper solution would have been a bridge.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I thought the hon. member for Royal might say that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is what this dollar item is for.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
601.	To provide for the expenses incurred by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in constructing and supervising construction of married quarters, schools and related services on behalf of the Department of National Defence (formerly under Department of Resources and Development)-further amount required, $130,000.
Mr. Lennard:: Why is this not charged to the Department of National Defence where it belongs?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think it is, Mr. Chairman.


Frank Exton Lennard: It does not say so here.


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is probably another bookkeeping requirement. The Central Mortgage

Supply-Transport
and Housing Corporation I do know charge the Department of National Defence for services that it performs, but it does not indicate here how that amount is recovered.
I shall have to get that information and give it to the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
604. Departmental administration-further amount required, $161,000.
Mr. Herridge:: I must take this my first
opportunity with you in the chair to say what a number of the people in my district have asked me to say. I represent the riding in which our deputy chairman first saw the light of day. On behalf of these old-timers I want to congratulate you on your appointment as deputy chairman. I recall one lady who said, "I was quite sure our Teddy would make his mark when he got to Ottawa."
I want to take the time of the house for a few minutes on this administration item of the Department of Transport, to introduce an important matter. I was going to do it when we were going into supply a few days ago, but I did not because I did not want to delay the debate on external affairs. It was suggested that I do not do so upon going into supply today so that these estimates could proceed. Perhaps if I take a few minutes at this time I shall have the good will of the house because I cannot wait to raise this matter until the regular estimates of the department are before the committee. I refer to a question that is vital to some three thousand of my constituents, to a lot of people in British Columbia, a good many people in Canada, and in fact a good many people in the United States who have been using the steamer service on the Arrow lakes during the summer months for many years.
The Canadian Pacific made the following announcement recently:
The Canadian Pacific Railway Company will withdraw all steamer service on the Arrow lakes. The last trip from West Robson on April 23 and the last trip from Nakusp to Arrowhead and return on April 24. Effective on these dates all steamer service provided by the above company will be cancelled.
This will mean there will be no steamer service for a distance of 120 miles on the Arrow lakes between Robson and Arrowhead. This announcement was made without any consultation with the people or the district organizations concerned; the public were simply informed through this notice in the

press and a letter to the chamber of commerce. It is very upsetting to these people I represent because it is a serious matter to them.
This company was incorporated by an act of this parliament in 1890, and sold to the Canadian Pacific later. The Canadian Pacific has operated steamers on these lakes since about 1896. In fact, it was the main route of the Canadian Pacific from the interior of British Columbia to the coast until the Kettle Valley railroad was built. If one peruses the minutes of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company up until the early twenties, one can see that the company made substantial profits out of the operation of this steamship service until that time. However, we admit that during the last years increasing losses have been incurred. Because of the changing circumstances a great deal of the traffic that formerly went up the lake is now going over the Kettle Valley railroad.
As a matter of fact, the company has discouraged traffic on this steamship service by failure to advertise. I know many people who tried to buy tickets for this service from agents in various parts of Canada, and they were told there was no service operating. The company in recent years has rerouted all the heavy freight, and instead of carrying it on the steamers have carried it on the railroad. This means a loss of credit to the steamers in question. I know that during the summer months last year this service was packed. Hundreds of cars, for which no reservations had been made, were turned away during the season and this happened at Nakusp, Arrowhead and West Robson at which points cars are taken aboard. This matter is of serious concern to the people I represent.
Strangely enough, while there has been an operating loss of something like $100,000 a year for the last two or three years, this loss has occurred in one of the best paying divisions of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Indeed, the plants of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company are situated in the district and according to the latest balance sheet of the C. M. and S. Company the Canadian Pacific will derive a net revenue of something over $10 million from this source alone. As I said, this service is of vital concern to many of my constituents, until other means of transportation is provided. It is essential to the settlers and the fruit farmers, who depend upon it for shipping fruit, in carload lots or less. It is important to the general farmers who ship carloads of hay and the

dairy farmers who ship produce to Nelson, Trail, Revelstoke and other points. We have two summer resorts on the upper lakes. One is at Halcyon, which is fairly large with accommodation for fifty guests and to which there will be no steamer service and no access by road. The same thing is true of St. Leon, where there are a thirty-five room hotel, hot springs and resort facilities.
This steamer also provides service for the logging operations along the lake which, in the last year, produced timber products to the value of about $1 million and in doing so, created considerable rail traffic for the C.P.R. I have mentioned the farmers and the loggers, as these people are the real backbone of the community. As a result of this announcement on the part of the Canadian Pacific, the people in the district have been very agitated. I have received a lot of letters from individuals and telegrams and letters from various organizations concerned. The people from the whole length of the lake attended a public meeting at Nakusp, called under the auspices of the Nakusp chamber of commerce on March 22 of this year. At this meeting all the angles of the question were discussed.
The people want to be fair about this but, as a result of that meeting attended by some 175 delegates from all points between Castlegar and Revelstoke, this resolution was passed:
That this meeting of 175 Arrow lakes citizens Deer Park to Arrowhead vigorously protest the discontinuance of steamer service on Arrow lakes. We respectfully request both federal and provincial government intervention and protest. We further request that the present lake transport service be maintained until an alternate satisfactory service is made available.
The resolution is supported by the West Kootenay central farmers institute; the associated growers of British Columbia, Kootenay section; the women's institutes of the district; all the co-operative fruit unions; by editorials and letters in the press and by dozens of letters that I have received. Yesterday I was informed that the government of British Columbia has also protested the announcement of the C.P.R. that the steamer service will be discontinued, and so informed the Minister of Transport.
It has been suggested that there will be a tugboat and barge service on the lower lake. So far as the people around the lower lakes are concerned, this is an entirely unsatisfactory arrangement, especially for handling soft and other fruits. When dealing with this question I want to emphasize to the minister, and I am sure he will bring my
Supply-Transport
remarks to the attention of the Minister of Transport, that the people of the district speak with one voice because they are very concerned and united about this matter. In my opinion, the responsibility for the maintenance of the service should be jointly shared by the federal government, the provincial government and the C.P.R. This steamship line was incorporated under an act of this parliament in 1890, and the crews who serve on these steamers come under federal labour legislation and the board of transport commissioners has issued certain directives concerning the operations of these steamers throughout the years. In my opinion the provincial government is also the government responsible for providing road transportation. Road transportation has been promised by successive provincial governments in British Columbia to service this lake area so that the steamship service would not be so essential. In election after election, from the McBride government on, these people have been promised road transportation along the lake. I say the Canadian Pacific Railway is responsible partly because the steamship service was established as part of its national operations. It received land grants from the federal government in the area so that it could build its railway lines and establish this steamship service. The railway company also promoted the settlement of the district. As a matter of fact my family was one of the victims of that early settlement promotion. Land was sold to early settlers; in fact half the town of Nakusp was given to the C.P.R. This land was sold at high prices to pioneers in the early days of the century.
I say the company has a moral responsibility to the people directly concerned. It is all right to talk about losses; one might just as well talk of losses along the north shore of lake Superior, for which provision has to be made by subsidies from this government. However, the service to which I have referred is an essential one, and I feel sure other hon. members from British Columbia share my views in this matter. I feel sure they hold the opinion that this service must be maintained until an alternative form of transportation is provided.
I have hurried along in order not to take up unnecessarily the time of the committee in a discussion of this item. However I would urge that the minister's department take action before the order of the C.P.R. goes into effect. There should be a conference of representatives of the Department of Transport, of officials of the provincial government, which has indicated its interest by protesting

Supply-Transport
against the decision of the C.P.R., and of the C.P.R. By consideration and co-operation they could work out jointly some scheme to continue the service on the Arrow lakes until some other satisfactory form of transportation is provided.
I have dealt with the subject hurriedly; but it is important and urgent for at least three thousand people whom I have the honour to represent. I do urge that the Minister of Transport take action along the lines I have suggested, because the people in the Arrow lakes district are certainly looking forward to the maintenance of this service until other satisfactory transportation is provided.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall see that my hon. friend's remarks are called to the attention of the minister, who is now appearing before the railways committee.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, like yourself I am a native of the West Kootenay district and I endorse the remarks of the hon. member who represents that riding. In addition, the hon. member for Kamloops has asked me to express to the committee his support of the remarks just made. The service in question is vital to that part of British Columbia. I believe it might be possible for the government to work out some agreement with the province of British Columbia under which the two governments would arrange to subsidize the service to an extent sufficient to keep it in operation.
Some hon. members may think that this would be breaking fresh ground. However, I have here the estimates of the Department of Transport for the year 1954-55, and I find at page 568, in the vote for the Canadian maritime commission, an amount of $100,000 as a subsidy for a boat service between Owen Sound and ports on Manitoulin island and Georgian bay, Ontario. There is also a vote of $35,000 for a boat service between Pelee island and the mainland, again in Ontario. Then, in addition, there are votes for salt water services.
I have given two examples of subsidies voted for fresh water services; and I believe this service on the Arrow lakes in West Kootenay would come in the same category as the two services to which I have just referred. I would hope the Minister of Finance would discuss the matter with the Minister of Transport with a view to including a vote in the 1954-55 estimates which would result in the maintenance of this Arrow lakes service.
fMr. Herridge.]


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall see that what has been said is brought to the attention of the minister.


Mr. Goode:: Mr. Chairman, this is a matter to be discussed not only by hon. members on the other side of the house. The hon. member for Kootenay West spoke to me about it this afternoon, knowing very well that I have used this steamship service on many occasions. I was astounded to learn from the hon. member for Kootenay West that the service was to be taken away from these people. I have travelled on that lake perhaps hundreds of times, and I do not know how the people affected will be able to get into or out of that locality unless something is done. I am pleased to know that the Minister of Finance is going to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister of Transport. I am sure however that it will be placed before the house again if something is not done about it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canal services-
606. To provide for expenses in connection with the St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations (including St. Lawrence seaway investigations)-further amount required, $200,000.
Howard Charles Green: This item calls for a further amount of $200,000 for expenses in connection with the St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations. I notice in the details at page 22 that all of the amount is for professional and special services. How is this money to be spent?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Aerial surveys of the St. Lawrence river basin, $30,000; field surveys in the Cornwall and Lachine areas during the winter, $120,000, and a hydraulic model of the Galop section, the Cardinal-Iroquois area, to be constructed and housed by the national research council, $50,000. The total is $200,000.


Howard Charles Green: To what persons and firms are those payments to be made?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have not that data here. The aerial survey would be made by regular aerial survey companies. However, I could get that information.


Howard Charles Green: I would be grateful if the minister would.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall do that.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps the item might be
allowed to stand in the meantime.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The hon. member could ask the same question when a similar item in the main estimates is discussed. He could

Supply-Transport
place his views on record at that time. I could down, and they cut a narrow channel and get the information and send it to him, if it keep it open as far as Sorel, during most of is merely for his private information.	the winter.


Howard Charles Green: Would the minister try to get it from the Minister of Transport? There are many questions to be asked him in respect of other items in his department.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I understood there was one item in particular about which the hon. member wished to question the minister. As I said before, he is now attending a meeting of the railways committee. I would be prepared to let this item stand so that the minister could deal with it.


George Stanley White: There is an
item in the main estimates for the St. Lawrence seaway, and I have one or two observations to make.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think we will be having items in that connection in the main estimates for some years to come.
Item stands.
Marine service steamers-
607. Construction or acquisition of vessels and equipment, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $291,907.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I notice that this item is for icebreaker service in the St. Lawrence and northern areas. What is the cost of the icebreaker service in the St. Lawrence river, and what is the main purpose in opening the river? Those of us who come from the maritime provinces realize that every day the St. Lawrence river is open before its normal time means a day less in the use of the winter ports of Saint John and Halifax.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Coming from Montreal, the
sooner the St. Lawrence is opened the more pleased I am.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I do not see why we should spend this large amount of money simply to please the minister.


Douglas Charles Abbott: But Montreal pays its fair
share of the taxes to open the river, too.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: There is no question about that. Is there any other reason for these icebreakers being used? I understand it is on account of flooding, and I should like to have some information.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is my understanding. I cannot claim to be an expert on this matter of course. I understand that the operation of the two icebreakers in the river in the winter is to minimize the danger of flooding, particularly the Sorel islands and further


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The main object is not to steal business from Saint John and Halifax.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Oh, just the reverse.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
River St. Lawrence ship channel service-
609. Contract dredging-further amount required, $1,899,989.
Howard Charles Green: May we have an explanation?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes. This is the St. Lawrence ship channel dredging contract which runs over a period of years, I think it is five years, and is paid for on a progress basis. At the beginning of the year we included in the main estimates an estimated amount of dredging that would be done, and the amount in the main estimates this year was $2,500,000 under vote 462. The item here of $1,899,989 is to cover the cost of additional dredging performed during 1953, arising as a result of favourable weather and availability of the contractors' equipment. With this supplementary the total payment to the end of the current fiscal year under the existing contract, the 1952 contract, will be $7,533,290.


Howard Charles Green: That covers more than one year?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Oh, yes, that covers the work done to date, on the five-year contract.


Howard Charles Green: What was the total paid for the fiscal year?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The total paid for the fiscal year with this amount will be $2,500,000 plus this $1,899,989, $4,399,989.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway and steamship services-
612. Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited, deficit, 1953-To provide for the payment to the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited (hereinafter called the company) of the amount of the deficit for the year ending December 31, 1953 in the operations of the company and the vessels under the control of the company, as certified by the auditors of the company to the Minister of Finance and approved by the Minister of Transport, $649,662.
Mr. Bell:: Can the minister tell us how many ships are in active operation now and is it the intention to keep them in operation?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The fleet now consists of eight vessels. The Lady Rodney and the Lady Nelson were withdrawn from service and

Supply-Transport
sold late in 1952. My understanding is that it is the intention to keep these eight ships operating this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
614. To provide for reimbursement of the Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $12,275.
Howard Charles Green: I ask that this item be allowed to stand.


Douglas Charles Abbott: All right.
Item stands.
Item 616 stands.
General-
Air transport board-
61*. Subventions for air carriers, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $80,000.


Harold Edward Winch: In view of the fact that an additional sum of $80,000 is required for this service in British Columbia, can the minister give an explanation of the need for it, particularly since in the past twelve months another company has said they could put on another service without any subsidy?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The minister will be here shortly. He is at the railways and shipping committee. Perhaps he had better deal with this. As my hon. friend has indicated, it deals with a supplementary payment to the Queen Charlotte Airlines Limited for subsidized services on the west coast of British Columbia. Perhaps the item can stand until the minister comes.


William Alfred Robinson: Item 618 stands.
Item stands.
Canadian maritime commission-
620. Steamship subventions for coastal services, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $144,971.


Howard Charles Green: There is a vote of $136,616 for the Newfoundland coastal steamship services. Just how does that vote arise?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Since Newfoundland joined confederation the Canadian National Railways have undertaken reorganization of the coastal steamship service, that is the coastal steamships of Newfoundland. Subsidy contracts have been executed between the Canadian maritime commission and the Canadian National Railways based upon estimates of annual loss. In each of the five years since 1950, the Canadian National Railways have absorbed the loss which has been incurred in excess of the subsidy provided. This has been included in the deficit of the railway in respect of its operation in Newfoundland. It is now considered that this loss in excess of the subsidy provided, which is based upon

estimates made prior to the year in which it is incurred, should be made up by an additional subsidy and provision made for it included in the further supplementary estimates. Due to increased wages and cost of materials, the loss on operation in 1953 exceeded the subsidy by the sum of $136,616, and this amount has been certified by George A. Touche and Company, the national company's auditors.


Howard Charles Green: Then this amount will be payable to the Canadian National Railways?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: And is that the total deficit for the year?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No.


Howard Charles Green: On the steamship services?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No; this is in addition to the subsidy originally provided.


Howard Charles Green: What was the original subsidy?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is provided for in the
previous estimates, $1,766,500.


Howard Charles Green: That is the deficit.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The total subsidy cost including the loss is $1,903,116.


Howard Charles Green: What was it in the previous year?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have not that figure today, but I will get it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
War veterans allowances and other benefits-
622. War veterans allowances-further amount required, $550,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Before this item carries I want to express the earnest hope that the government will soon bring in its legislation amending the War Veterans Allowance Act. I hope it is not presumptuous for me to assume that an amendment to that act is on the books for this session, for it is certainly long overdue. I am sure the committee is glad to vote this item and provide whatever additional money is required to pay war veterans allowances according to the present schedule. I am sure also that if the house as a whole were given the opportunity to do so, it would vote wholeheartedly for increases in the amount of war veterans allowance and for other changes, particularly with respect to the amount of permissible income. I am glad that a committee is to be set up. The notice has been on the order paper for some time and it has been made to stand.

Perhaps the reason for that is that something is coming in respect to the War Veterans Allowance Act. I urge the government not to delay any longer in connection with this important matter.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: For fear that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre may get a copyright on this request that the War Veterans Allowance Act be amended to provide for an increase in war veterans allowances I should like to state also, as I have on many previous occasions, that I hope this will be given very serious consideration by the government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
War veterans allowances and other benefits-
623. Hospital and other	allowances-further
amount required, $100,000.
Frank Exton Lennard: What is meant by "hospital and other allowances"?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The explanation I have here is that the item is required to provide for expenditures arising from the payment of allowances and provision of comforts and clothing to certain classes of veterans receiving treatment, examination or care under the authority of the veterans treatment regulations. It is part of a larger vote of $2,750,000, making a total vote of $3 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian pension commission-
628.	To provide for payment, in respect of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1954, of a monthly pension of $100 to Mrs. Annie Elizabeth Cronk, and to authorize the Canadian pension commission to pay thereafter to Annie Elizabeth Cronk an annual pension during her lifetime, in the same manner and subject to similar terms and conditions as if she were the widow of a soldier holding the rank of private who died while rendering military service in world war I, $1,200.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I would appreciate it if the minister would explain this item. I do not rise to ask for an explanation in any critical vein. I know nothing of the circumstances of this case at all. It looks to me as though there must have been a deserving case that provision could not be made for in the normal way and for which special provision is being made. It may be that this is a precedent that might be useful on some future occasion. I would be glad if the minister would tell us what the circumstances are.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The item is required to provide for payment to be made to Annie Elizabeth Cronk of a monthly pension of $100 during her lifetime.
Private Cronk received an eye injury due to the discharge of a blank cartridge in his
Supply-Veterans Affairs face during active militia training at Niagara-on-the-Lake in 1905. He was subsequently awarded a pension under orders in council P.C. 42/2749 and 16/2857 dated October 23, 1936, and November 18, 1937, respectively, at schedule A rates, under section 49 of the Pension Act.
Private Cronk died on March 30, 1953 and the widow lodged claim for pension and burial grant. The Canadian pension commission ruled that there are no provisions in the Pension Act which would enable the commission to authorize a burial grant or an award on behalf of the widow in this case.
Treasury board minutes T.B. 461111 dated January 29, 1954, and directed to the Department of National Defence concurred in the proposal that a pension of $100 a month for life be paid to this widow effective April 1,	1953, subject to parliamentary
approval.
Pensions of a similar nature have been paid in the past from the appropriation applicable to the Pension Act and in accordance therewith the Canadian pension commission were requested to place this pension in payment.
This provision is, therefore, required to cover the pension retroactive to April 1, 1953 and to authorize its payment hereafter as a charge against the appropriation for pensions for disability and death. I have not before me the full details which would have been available to the treasury board when they approved the recommendation, but as a rule approval is usually granted on compassionate grounds of a strong nature.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian pension commission-
Terminable services-
629.	Post discharge rehabilitation benefits, including the training of merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners-further amount required, $560,000.
Howard Charles Green: Can the minister explain this vote and in particular let us know whether any of it will be used for the training of merchant seamen? They are referred to in the description of the vote but from the details it appears to me they do not receive any assistance.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The increased expenditure
under this vote is to provide unemployment insurance contributions. There was an underestimate made when the main estimates were prepared. Various calculations were made as to the requirements to be met for payments by the department of combined contributions for employers and veterans in regard to the veterans unemployment insurance fund and they proved to be inadequate.
3442	HOUSE OF
Supply-External Affairs


Howard Charles Green: Has there been any money paid out during the year for the training of merchant seamen?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I have not that information here. This item covers both merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps the minister could get that information?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I can get that information but perhaps the hon. member will allow this item to pass and I will provide him with that information later.


Thomas Miller Bell: I would also like to have information as to how many merchant seamen have been receiving benefits due to the scrapping of the fleet. Perhaps the minister will provide that information?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I will see that that information is furnished.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS Loans, investments and advances-
630.	To provide, subject to regulations of the treasury board, for working capital advances in the current and subsequent fiscal years to posts and employees on posting abroad, and to authorize the creation of a special account in the consolidated revenue fund to which shall be credited expenditure made by and advances recovered from the said posts and employees, the excess of the amounts charged over the amounts credited to the account at any time not to exceed $1,000,000. Vote 655 of the Appropriation Act No. 2, 1952, is hereby repealed, $1,000,000.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this vote? It seems to set up one of these revolving funds which appear to be a new departure in government finance. We have had one other example of this during the present session and I would like to have an explanation from the minister.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Vote 655 of the supplementary estimates 1951-52 set up an account to provide working capital advances, not to exceed $600,000, to facilitate the financing of external affairs posts abroad. The setting up of the account was an attempt to meet a very difficult financing problem in providing funds for posts abroad. The time lag between the receipt of expenditure accounts and the forwarding of the advances makes it necessary for a second advance to go forward before the first has been accounted for. Thus, at any point in time, there is a substantial amount of "in transit" funds. Before the device of the working capital accounts was introduced, the advances were made from a departmental appropriation and it was necessary for that vote to be much larger than the actual amount required to meet the total expenditure which remained as a charge to it when the books


were closed at the end of each fiscal year. Similarly, serious bookkeeping difficulties were encountered in making advances from several votes and then distributing the expenditure among their appropriate allotments. By charging all advances to the special account, these difficulties were considerably eased. The department now finds that the present amount in the account is not adequate to meet the expanding needs. Factors contributing to this inadequacy are: (1) opening of new posts; (2) increase in amounts required due to general rise in prices; (3) increase in interest-free loans and security payments; (4) additional requests for expenditures by posts on behalf of other government departments; and (5) increases due to expanded program of furnishing and other capital items at posts abroad.
In view of the department's request, treasury board, under T.B. 463061 of March 5, 1954, approved the increase in the working capital account from $600,000 to $1 million and its inclusion in these further supplementary estimates. It seems to work out pretty well in departments which have expenses of this kind all of which, of course, are kept under strict treasury control.


Howard Charles Green: They previously had $600,000?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: Was there a vote of $600,000 in the regular estimates?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It was set up in further supplementary estimates for 1951-52 as a revolving fund for which a loan of $600,000 was authorized in the supplementary estimates for 1951-52, which covered the amount of advances. The purpose of this vote was to consolidate that $600,000 with an additional $400,000 to make a revolving fund of $1 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE Loans, Investments and advances-
Customs and excise divisions-
632. To authorize and provide for the operation of a revolving fund in accordance with section 58 of the Financial Administration Act for the purpose of acquiring and managing material to be used in the manufacture of uniforms, the amount to be charged to the revolving fund at any time not to exceed, $90,000.
Howard Charles Green: This appears to be another example of the revolving fund. Is this the first time the Department of National Revenue has had such a fund? If so, why is it necessary to have it?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I believe this is the first time. My hon. friend will recall that the establishment of revolving funds generally was authorized under the Financial Administration Act

and this is the first time they have had one in the Department of National Revenue.


Howard Charles Green: Why is it necessary for the Department of National Revenue to have this money in order to obtain clothing with which to manufacture uniforms? Why is that not covered by an ordinary vote in the estimates?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The present practice is to purchase material for the manufacture of uniforms from the current fiscal year's allotment and uniforms cannot be made available for the start of the tourist season which is the heaviest time for customs officers. The requested revolving fund will permit the purchase of material the previous fall so that uniforms can be manufactured and made available early in the season. The procedure would be for the department to purchase the material from the revolving fund so that uniform quality, weight and colour can be assured. The material would then be sold to the manufacturer and the revolving fund reimbursed. When the uniforms are completed and delivered the complete cost of same would be paid from the allotment voted by parliament. It is really to provide a revolving fund so that they can maintain a modest inventory reserve of the correct weight and type of material required. I had the treasury board look into this matter very carefully when the suggestion came up and they informed me that in their opinion it was a sound and economic measure.


Howard Charles Green: I presume this is only the start of these revolving funds. No doubt there will be a demand from different departments for increases in their revolving fund just as the Department of External Affairs has asked for an increase of $400,000 this year. Is this, in reality, a new policy under which amounts of money are to be made available for the different departments rather than having a vote?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. It is only in the operating departments. In most cases the moneys have to be paid out of the appropriation. In the case of contracts for uniforms, contracts will be let for the uniforms required by the Department of National Revenue and there will have to be a vote in the estimates to provide for the total cost of these uniforms, but the $90,000 will enable them to acquire an inventory of cloth which will be sufficient to take care of, let us say, the cloth requirements for two or three months or something of that sort. They will purchase the cloth before the commencement of the season and turn it over to the manufacturer at the appropriate time when they let the contracts for the uniforms. The manufacturer will pay for the cloth but the department will have to
Supply-National Revenue get a vote from the house to pay for the full cost price of the manufacturer which will include the cost of the cloth as well as the cost of making it up.


Howard Charles Green: But in effect the setting up of these revolving funds means, does it not, that the money is spent before it is voted? It is spent by the department without having a vote for that purpose from the house.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Subject to reimbursement. That is right.


Howard Charles Green: Then the vote is approved at a later date?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In some cases that is true. It is a working capital advance. If you want to use the terminology of accountancy, it is a working capital advance to the department. That is what it is.


Howard Charles Green: Is similar provision to be made for the other departments?


Douglas Charles Abbott: In appropriate cases; not in every department. A good many departments will not need it. There is another one coming a little bit later for the R.C.M.P.


Howard Charles Green: I know that. I have my eye on it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What will happen if the department sells the cloth to the manufacturer for an amount less than that which the department paid for it, or for an amount greater than that?


Douglas Charles Abbott: As Minister of Finance I can say that whoever authorized that in the department would not stay in that position for very long.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Loans, investments and advances-
Royal Canadian Mounted Police-
633. To authorize and provide for the operation of a revolving fund in accordance with section 58 of the Financial Administration Act for the purpose of acquiring and managing material to be used in the manufacture of uniforms, the amount to be charged to the revolving fund at any time not to exceed $450,000 of which $250,000 was provided under vote 547, Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953-further amount required, $200,000.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this item? It appears to be for the manufacture of uniforms. It permits an amount up to $450,000. Why is it necessary to have this change made in the manner of financing R.C.M.P. purchases?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Maybe here is a case where you had the fund set up and you did not put enough into it. Is that the story?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is right.

Supply-R.C.M.P.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Maybe you sold the cloth too cheaply.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am sorry to delay the committee. I should have had this item taken when we had the Department of Justice before us earlier. Vote 547 of the main estimates which we had earlier this year authorized and provided for the operation of a revolving fund for acquiring of material to be used in the manufacture of uniforms; that is R.C.M.P. uniforms. Of course their requirements are very much greater than are those of the Department of National Revenue. The maximum chargeable to the fund was placed at $250,000 which has proved to be inadequate, and it is estimated that a further $200,000 will be needed in order that the revolving fund may be put into operation.


Howard Charles Green: Is the same system used by the Department of National Defence for acquiring uniforms?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I cannot answer that question offhand.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Has the minister no further explanation as to why this amount proved to be inadequate? A moment ago when the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra wondered whether the $90,000 item might have to be supplemented another time, the suggestion was not taken too seriously; but here we have just this very thing happening.


Douglas Charles Abbott: My hon. friend will appreciate that I do not go into the detail of these amounts. I ask my officials who have charge of these matters to look into the cost of inventory requirements and advise me if the amounts requested are reasonable. The explanation which was given to me, and which I accept as being accurate is as follows.
The revolving fund, as presently authorized, is inadequate for requirements, and an additional amount of $200,000 should be provided in the supplementary estimates in order to bring the fund up to an amount which will permit normal operation during the coming year. With this additional amount, the total fund will be $450,000. Against this must be charged the present inventory value of $292,000 in round figures, leaving a balance available for purchase of materials of $158,000. This amount will not be excessive and is considerably below annual requirements.


Stanley Howard Knowles: How do they get $292,000 of inventory when they had only $250,000 in the fund?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I suppose they must have had some other vote that they could buy it with. This is a sound accounting and bookkeeping

device to enable what are really operating departments to operate efficiently and smoothly and yet maintain the principle of parliamentary control. It is essentially a bookkeeping operation, of course, as the committee appreciates.


Howard Charles Green: I notice that the Associate
Minister of National Defence is now in the chamber. Perhaps the Minister of Finance could ascertain from him whether this same system is used in purchasing uniforms for the defence forces.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think probably not. He tells me that, so far as he knows, it is not used by them. Of course, the requirements of the defence forces are on such a much larger scale and no doubt other considerations apply there. Contracts are let in very large amounts and, as the committee knows, mobilization stores of certain types of uniforms are provided; but so far as I am aware, there is not any revolving fund. It might be desirable to have one introduced.


Mr. Monteith:: When this revolving fund is set up do you have to come back to parliament again in order to spend that money the second time?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No. When they let a contract for uniforms, they have to pay for them out of a vote which is voted by parliament. But this revolving fund-taking the one which is now before us-would enable the R.C.M.P. to hold a continuing inventory of up to $450,000 worth of cloth; and they would have an asset to represent a loan which we make to them when acquiring that inventory. As they turn over the cloth to the clothing contractors to make it up into uniforms they get paid for the cloth and the moneys go back into the revolving fund. They must pay the uniform contractors the price of the uniforms, which price will of course include the amount he has paid for the cloth out of a vote which has to be authorized by this parliament. But we start them off with a loan to provide an inventory of $450,000 worth of cloth.


Jay Waldo Monteith: When that inventory is
used up that money can be spent again for more inventory without coming back to parliament?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is a revolving fund. The fund has been used to buy cloth. It is sold to the clothing contractor and the price goes back into the revolving fund. That is the essence of a revolving fund.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Canal services-*
606. To provide for expenses in connection with the St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations (including St. Lawrence seaway investigations)-further amount required, $200,000.
Howard Charles Green: On this item I was asking
particulars of the payments made for professional and special surveys.


Mr. Chevrier:: On this amount of $200,000?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: It is divided as follows: $30,000 for aerial surveys in the international rapids section of the river; $120,000 for field surveys and borings made in the Lachine section, the international section and the Cornwall section; and finally $50,000 for a hydraulic model of a section of the St. Lawrence which is also in the international section, that is the Cardinal-Iroquois area, which was constructed at the request of the special projects branch of the Department of Transport by the national research council. It was found advisable to have a model in case it should become necessary in connection with the development of the seaway. That model has been used and has proven its value.


Howard Charles Green: To what persons or firms were payments made?


Lionel Chevrier: They were made to individuals. In the case of field surveys, in the Cornwall and Lachine sections they were made to employees of the department, drillers, field men. Speaking from memory, I think there are about forty or fifty people employed by the public projects branch in the Lachine section and in the international section.


Howard Charles Green: Casuals?


Lionel Chevrier: Some of it is casual and some of it is professional. I would think there are four or five engineers employed in that area. They have charge of the borings. They have taken borings in the Apple Hill area. They have taken them in the Montreal area, in Laprairie basin, at Cornwall and at Cardinal. It has been necessary to let out a number of small subcontracts in order to assist the drillers. They would be perhaps $2,000 or $3,000. That is included in this.


Howard Charles Green: What about the aerial survey?


Lionel Chevrier: The aerial survey-again I speak from memory-was made by Photographic Surveys for the purpose of making a map of the international section.


Howard Charles Green: That is a private firm?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Transport
614. To provide for reimbursement of the Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $12,275.
Howard Charles Green: This item has to do with the Department of Transport stores account. The minister will remember we had quite a discussion about his stores account three or four years ago. I wonder whether he could explain this item.


Lionel Chevrier: I remember the discussion that took place in the house quite well. Since then, however, the Financial Administration Act has been passed and that act provides that the minister of any department where stores become obsolete must, in order to dispose of them, get the approval of treasury board. In this item of $12,275 there is $9,535 representing obsolete stores. I might give two examples. In the case of the Trent canal the disposal of the tug Fenelon rendered obsolete certain spare parts. On the Cornwall and Lachine canals we have moved from manually operated gates to electrically operated gates, and it has become necessary to dispose of certain canal equipment and spare parts that are no longer of use.
At Gander-I move now to air services- it has been found necessary to dispose of certain English type motorcycles. Spare parts are practically impossible to obtain. There is also a large quantity of carbon paper that has deteriorated to such a state that it can no longer be used. Stocks of various departmental forms have become obsolete through revisions of those forms. Then there is also a list of hardware goods that have become obsolete; also oils, greases and things of that kind that have become stale and can no longer be used because they have been there for so long. Under section 60 of the Financial Administration Act it has become necessary for the minister to report these things to treasury board, and I understand that treasury board has approved of this.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil aviation division-
616. Control of civil aviation, including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder-further amount required, $46,000.
Howard Charles Green: This item deals with control of civil aviation, including administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder. Apparently there has been some difficulty between Canada and Australia concerning the right of Canadian Pacific Air Lines to have a weekly service between the two countries. I had a press dispatch which seems to have become mislaid, but it was dated earlier this month and indicated that it was unlikely that an agreement could be

Supply-Transport
reached with the result that C.P.A. would not be able to fly to Australia. Can the minister tell us what the situation is at the present time?


Lionel Chevrier: I do not think there is any decision that C.P.A. cannot fly to Australia. On the contrary, C.P.A. can fly to Australia. The only point was a greater frequency of the service. I did not expect this matter to come up and I must draw on my memory. My recollection is that C.P.A. was applying for a higher frequency of service.


Howard Charles Green: Once a week.


Lionel Chevrier: I think that is it. They are operating now on a temporary permit, and there has been no question of the Australian government not renewing the temporary permit. When C.P.A. applied through the Department of Transport for increased frequency I am informed that the government of Australia countered with a proposal for additional facilities in Canada. For instance, I think they asked for a through service to London via Montreal. That really is the state in which the matter stands at the present time. Canadian Pacific Air Lines is not affected in any way in its right to fly under the present schedule of service, but the additional frequency is being held up until attention can be given to the demand from Australia.


Howard Charles Green: The Australian air line flies into Canada twice a week, does it not?


Lionel Chevrier: I believe it does.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently C.P.A. is only allowed to fly to Australia once every two weeks and cannot maintain that operation unless it is allowed to fly every week. Is that not the position?


Lionel Chevrier: No, I would not say that. While C.P.A. would like to get greater frequency, I do not think they are too anxious about the whole position.


Howard Charles Green: The minister feels that some agreement can be worked out so that the service to Australia by C.P.A. will not have to be discontinued?


Lionel Chevrier: Oh, I would hope that it would not. It is my strong hope it will not be discontinued and that it will be possible to find ways of increasing it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Mr. Green.3	_
Air transport board-
618. Subventions for air carriers, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $80,000.
Harold Edward Winch: I asked that this item stand so that the minister could explain the situation with respect to the requirement of an additional subvention of $80,000 which I understand is for Queen Charlotte Airlines. I ask the question in view of the situation that has existed during the past year where Q.C.A. has had a virtual monopoly on certain runs and some other companies have said that they were prepared to go in there without any subvention.


Lionel Chevrier: Queen Charlotte Airlines has no monopoly. Last year and again this year Q.C.A. found itself in very difficult economic circumstances, and the government decided to come to its assistance rather than abandon some of the services that it was providing. For instance, if it were not for the subsidy which the government granted last year and the subsidy which is in the estimates this year it would not be possible for Q.C.A. to fly from Vancouver to Tofino on the west coast of Vancouver island, from Vancouver to Alert Bay and the Minstrel island area, and from Vancouver to Powell River. These are services which were considered essential by the government, and on the assurance from Q.C.A. that, with this additional subsidy, they would be able to provide the service we decided to put this amount in the estimates.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently the minister's
department has authorized some investigation into the affairs of Queen Charlotte Airlines. I have here a press dispatch from the Vancouver Sun of March 22, a week ago today. It reads:
Investigation of the operations of Queen Charlotte Airlines is being conducted by the Department of Transport and the Vancouver firm has been ordered by the government to "put its affairs in order".
The dispatch goes on to say that there has been competition from another line, Pacific Western Airlines, which does not ask for any subsidy, and it quotes the minister as saying, with respect to Q.C.A.:
We told them to put their house in order on their profitable lines. Then we'll see what can be done to maintain service on their unprofitable lines.
The dispatch continues:
The minister stated flatly that it is not the government's policy to subsidize air lines and he admitted that Ottawa has been embarrassed by the necessity to aid the losing air line.
That report may not be correct, but would the minister say something about it?


Lionel Chevrier: Part of it is correct, that part which says that we are conducting an investigation to ascertain which portions of this line are unprofitable and if there are services that are unprofitable. If there are services that are unprofitable they should be cut out so we would not have to pay the subsidy. In any event, I think it is essential we carry on this investigation while the subsidy is being paid to ascertain which of these services are necessary from a public standpoint, and which are not. Those which are not necessary certainly should not be subsidized.


Howard Charles Green: Is there to be a subsidy in the coming fiscal year?


Lionel Chevrier: This covers the present year from December 1953 to April 1954.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.

["Mr. Speaker, I have followed this debate with great interest. May I say how greatly I have been impressed by the high level which has been maintained throughout. I feel that everyone who has spoken in this debate has been fully conscious of the sombre background against which the debate is being held. I refer to the black cloud which arose in the Pacific on March 1, the time of the experiment with the hydrogen bomb. The lurid flash of that bomb illumined, as it were, the thinking of mankind upon the tremendous and terrifying situation in which we find ourselves. We realize, I believe, that for the first time in his history man now has the power to destroy himself and all his works. The seriousness of this situation has been reflected in the high seriousness and tone of this debate.\nWe are all conscious of the frightening tragedy that would ensue if the hydrogen bomb were used. I think we feel that at all costs we must avert the tragedy of a third world war. But if that tragedy is to be averted, the first essential, in my humble opinion, is that there must be clear and complete understanding amongst the governments and peoples of the free nations. It is for that reason that I should like to congratulate most heartily the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) on the signal\n\nservice which he has rendered by inducing Mr. Dulles, the Secretary of State of the United States, to clarify that momentous statement he made on January 12.\nI was greatly surprised to hear the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) assert in this house tonight that the speech made by our Secretary of State for External Affairs to the national press club in Washington and the statement that followed it by Mr. Dulles in his article in Foreign Affairs has shed no light on the original statement by Mr. Dulles. I certainly cannot agree with that estimate. That statement of January 12 by the United States Secretary of State I have described as momentous. I think it was momentous for several reasons. First, it gave a clear and unequivocal warning to potential aggressors; second, it seemed at first sight at any rate, to place great emphasis upon the utilization by the western powers of those resources in which they have the greatest advantage such as, for instance, their scientific supremacy, their technical know-how, their industrial skill; all of which may be regarded as offsetting the vast, almost unlimited manpower of the Soviet bloc. But nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, that statement inspired serious misgivings.\nWhat were some of the causes of the uneasiness produced by the Dulles new look statement. First of all, of course,-as the Secretary of State for External Affairs clearly showed in his speech on Thursday in this house-there was the question as to whether there would be prior consultation between the United States and its allies before resort was had to this policy of instant and massive retaliation. Fears were expressed in many quarters that the United States might be lapsing into a policy of continentalism.\nI have before me here extracts from Mr. Dulles' article in the April issue of Foreign Affairs, an article which followed the speech by our Secretary of State for External Affairs in Washington. I quote from Mr. Dulles' statement as follows:\nThe cornerstone of security for the free nations must be a collective system of defence. They clearly cannot achieve security separately. No single nation can develop for itself defensive power of adequate scope and flexibility. In seeking to do so, each would become a garrison state and none would achieve security.\nAnd Mr. Dulles went on to say this:\nThis is true of the United States. Without the co-operation of allies, we would not even be in a position to retaliate massively against the war industries of an attacking nation.\nExternal Affairs\nThen he added a reference to the use of bases of the United States in foreign countries:\nThe free world system of bases is an integral part of its collective security. At the recent four-power conference in Berlin, Mr. Molotov repeatedly attacked these bases as evidence of aggressive purpose. Actually these bases on the territory of other sovereign countries are merely a physical expression of the collective security system.\nThen he went on to say this:\nThey were constructed only at the request of the host nation and their availability depends upon its consent, usually as a legal condition and always as a practical one. The requisite consent to the use of these bases would never be accorded unless it was clear that their use was in response to open aggression, and reasonably related to its scope and nature. This gives assurance of their community function.\nWhat Mr. Dulles said in his article in Foreign Affairs he restated, perhaps even more emphatically, in a press conference which he held in Washington on March 16. I quote from the report of that conference as it appeared in the New York Times of March 17. This is Mr. Dulles answering a question, and he said:\nIt is, I think, well known that the bases which we have in foreign countries are in general not usable as a matter of law, and as a practical matter are not usable except with the consent of the countries where the bases are. For example, the bases which are available to our strategic air force in Great Britain are not usable as a base of attack except with the consent of the British government. The same is true in general with all our foreign bases. Therefore, it is implicit in our security system that it operates with the consent and acquiescence of the other partners who have helped to provide the facilities which create a sort of international police system.\nLater in that same press conference when asked if there would be consultation Mr. Dulles said:\nYes, there would certainly be consultation in most of the cases that I can conceive of.\nNow, Mr. Speaker, admittedly Mr. Dulles' statement does not say that there will be consultation in every conceivable case, but it does say that there will be consultation in most cases and that there could not be use made of United States bases in other countries without the consent of the host country. That, I think, is important for us to know in Canada, particularly for those of us who live in parts of Canada where the United States has military bases as, for example, in Newfoundland.\nAnother question which the new look statement of Mr. Dulles on January 12 raised in the minds of many people is this: Would the apparent reliance upon massive retaliatory action necessarily mean a general war? Would it mean that whenever aggression of any kind, even of a small kind, took place in any", "External Affairs\npart of the world retaliation would be atomic? Would the effect of this new look policy be exactly the opposite of the effect which the United Nations strove to achieve in Korea in 1950 namely, to confine and localize the conflict and to prevent the extension of a local conflict into a world conflagration? Here, too I think the statement of our Secretary of State for External Affairs led Mr. Dulles to give us clarification because in that same article in the April issue of Foreign Affairs Mr. Dulles stated:\nTo deter aggression, it is important to have the flexibility and the facilities which make various responses available. In many cases, any open assault by communist forces could only result in starting a general war. But the free world must have the means for responding effectively on a selective basis where it chooses. It must not put itself in the position where the only response open to it is a general war.\nAgain, he said:\nThis calls for a system in which local defensive strength is reinforced by more mobile deterrent power.\nHe added:\nIn every endangered area there should be a sufficient military establishment to maintain order against subversion and to resist other forms of indirect aggression and minor satellite aggressions. This serves the indispensable need to demonstrate a purpose to resist and to compel any aggressor to expose his real intent by such serious fighting as will brand him before all the world and promptly bring collective measures into operation.\nHe concluded:\nThat does not mean turning every local war into a world war. It does not mean that if there is a communist attack somewhere in Asia atom or hydrogen bombs will necessarily be dropped on the great industries of China or Russia.\nThere, Mr. Speaker, is another very important point that has been clarified as a result of the questions put by our Secretary of State for External Affairs. Yet another misgiving has been removed by the same cause. One question which I think suggested itself to many of us after reading Mr. Dulles' January speech was whether the new look policy would involve United States withdrawal from western Europe, whether it would mean a retreat into continentalism. There is no need for me to emphasize how serious that would have been, particularly in its psychological effect upon the continental countries of western Europe, and more particularly France about whom I propose to say a little more in a few moments. But here again we have an assurance from Mr. Dulles as found again in the article in Foreign Affairs. He says:\nMoreover, the program does not mean that we intend to pull our forces out of Europe. It is, of course, essential that the continental nations themselves provide a harmonious nucleus of integrated defence. If they do so, the United States would\n\nexpect to maintain substantial forces of its own in Europe, both in support of the forward strategy of defence and for political reasons.\nI feel that assurance will have a useful psychological effect, more particularly in France where, as we know, there is even now very great reluctance to ratification of the EDC treaty. We were all glad, I know, to note from the speech of the Secretary of State for External Affairs that substantial progress has been made toward the realization of that very important project, but we are all aware, as he himself pointed out, that there are still serious hurdles to be surmounted. Perhaps the crucial obstacle is France herself. We know that France fears the resurgence of German militarism, and I would agree with the hon. member for Bosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) that we have every reason to sympathize with France. We know that she has been invaded three times in the last eighty odd years by Germany, that she has suffered grievously at Germany's hands. It is only natural that she should suspect the consequences of German rearmament, but surely the choice is not a simple choice between German rearmament and no German rearmament.\nSooner or later German rearmament would, it seems to me, be inevitable. The vacuum that at present exists cannot continue indefinitely and the true choice seems to be a Germany rearmed within the confines of an international system, international control, and a Germany rearmed outside such a system as EDC. Nor should we forget that the author of the EDC project was a Frenchman, Mr. Pleven, and that the best minds in France have seen in EDC perhaps the only solution.\nAgain, Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out that without some such form of international co-operation in western Europe, the defence of the continent will remain very weak indeed. Anything that can be done, therefore, to reassure France and to make her more likely to accept the EDC program seems to me to be an important step forward.\nFinally, Mr. Speaker, I should like to turn for a few moments from Europe to the Far East, and to join with other speakers from all parts of the house in welcoming the statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) on Thursday with reference to the recognition of the communist regime in China. I believe, and I am sure that many will agree with me, that statement showed a most statesmanlike approach to this very delicate problem. Personally, I was glad to hear that at present there is no intention to consider or even to contemplate recognition of the communist regime in China. I feel\n\nthat the communist regime, if it is to be recognized, must work its passage. The forthcoming conference at Geneva will, I think, be the first occasion upon which communist negotiators have sat down at a conference table with negotiators from the west. I believe we should perhaps regard that as a test of the good faith of the communist regime, not necessarily the one and only or final test but at least one test. I believe we should proceed in this matter with caution and make haste very slowly.\nOn the other hand I believe the Prime Minister was wise in pointing out that to adopt a never, never policy would not be sound. It would tie our hands diplomatically. It would not enable us to maintain a freedom of diplomatic manoeuvre. After all, in the changing circumstances of this age, no one can predict with certainty how far conditions may change in the years to come. For that reason, I think it is wise to maintain a flexible policy and to forswear a rigid course in these diplomatic matters.\nIn conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I mentioned the Geneva conference. I feel that we are doing the right thing in being represented there. I hope that it may achieve a great measure of success. I am afraid that hope is more in the form of a wish rather than based upon fact and may contain a degree of optimism. I believe we should take advantage of every opportunity to negotiate, because eventually out of negotiations may come understanding and agreement. It may take time. It will take patience, but the alternative is so disastrous that negotiations must continue. Of course, I do agree with the sentiments that have been expressed in different parts of the house that in these negotiations we should negotiate from strength.\nOn motion of Mr. Green the debate was adjourned."]
Douglas Charles Abbott: that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that towards making good the supply-granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1954, the sum of $98,214,350 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Abbott thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 392, for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending March 31, 1954.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
['Resolved, that towards making good the supply-granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1954, the sum of $98,214,350 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.']
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Shall this bill be read the second time now?


Stanley Howard Knowles: By leave.


Douglas Charles Abbott: the second reading of the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.
On clause 1-Short title.
['the second reading of the bill.']
Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask if the bill has been printed?
External Affairs


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes, I have a copy here. I thought I handed it to someone to give to my hon. friend. I believe this will be appropriation bill No. 2.


[Stage Direction]
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported.
['Yes, I have a copy here. I thought I handed it to someone to give to my hon. friend. I believe this will be appropriation bill No. 2.']
Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Shall this bill be read a third time now?


Stanley Howard Knowles: By leave.


Douglas Charles Abbott: the third reading of the bill.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Friday, March 26, consideration of the motion of Mr. Pearson:
That items Nos. 84 to 103 inclusive, of the main estimates, 1954-55, be withdrawn from the committee of supply and referred to the standing committee on external affairs, saving always the powers of the committee of supply in relation to the voting of public moneys.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, on Friday evening at ten o'clock I was just dealing with some of the references made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) to the need for consultation. I had made the point that consultation should involve more than mere consultation between governments to work out a course of action in external affairs, but that this parliament had the right to be informed by the government as to what its policies and intentions are in this matter; and in that sphere I had directed attention particularly to the question of the government's intention with respect to the Geneva conference. I had suggested that we are entitled to receive some assurance from the minister as to what the Canadian delegation at Geneva will do, and even more particularly what it will not do, in the way of making concessions to communist delegations.

External Affairs
I should like now to discuss this matter of consultation in its international aspects. I think that in addition to a clear explanation from the minister as to what the policies of the Canadian delegation will be at Geneva, we are also entitled to a clear explanation from the minister and the government as to how, in their view, the international consultation that he referred to as being so necessary, and to which he referred at such length, is going to be achieved.
1 am not going to follow him in all the tortuosities of his interpretation and his misgivings, and his subsequent reassurance as to the meaning of a speech made on January 12 by the Secretary of State of the United States. I must say that to me, at any rate, it seemed that his belief that he had received an undertaking that there would be consultations is like a certain form of hypnosis, that is to say it was self-induced. I can see nothing in the various statements of the minister, and the subsequent statement by Secretary Dulles, which would entitle the government, this House of Commons or the nation to believe that it had an ironclad assurance any more after the minister had spoken in Washington on this matter of consultation than before he had spoken.
The minister himself has told us that he took exception to three words in the speech of Mr. Dulles, when Mr. Dulles was outlining what is sometimes called the new concept of defence policy. Those words were "instantly", "means" and "our choosing". Using those words in the full context of the sentence, we find it reads in this way:
The basic decision was to depend primarily upon a great capacity to retaliate, instantly, by means and at places of our choosing.
The Secretary of State for External Affairs told us that in his view, after he had made his statement in Washington, all three of those words had been satisfactorily explained; so that he now felt, he said, very much reassured that American policy did not mean that there would be instant action or reaction on their part without consultation with their allies.
But, Mr. Speaker, if the minister was worried before he went to Washington, I can see no reason for his satisfaction now. The problem of course is, and always has been, one of consultation. Well, what did Mr. Dulles say about this matter of consultation which would justify the minister in that feeling of reassurance which he says he has? The minister did not summarize the effect of Mr. Dulles' subsequent reassuring words. As I recall them, it seems to me that the effect of what Mr. Dulles had subsequently said was something very much like this: Certainly, we

will as a general rule consult you before acting in any international situation, and we will consult you wherever possible.
What other answer could be given? But I think we are entitled to ask: What sort of assurance is this? Here is one of the sentences used by the Secretary of State of the United States as quoted by our own minister at page 3330 of Hansard:
In no place did 1 say we would retaliate instantly, although we might indeed retaliate instantly under conditions that called for that.
Well, that is just the point; what sort of assurance is that? What is the difference after that statement was made from what it was before it was made? In fact, it seems to me that it is pretty fatuous to say that we now have an assurance that there are ways of consultation, and that we have any right to be more reassured now than we were before. I think the fatuity that would there apply is made clear by the minister's own summary, as it is set out at page 3331 of Hansard, where he said:
Mr. Speaker, I think the effect of this exchange of views, this conference, these statements and these clarifications has been that we now have a fairly clear and reassuring idea of what this new strategy and this new planning for defence is. One thing this interpretation does make clear is that diplomacy and consultation, which is part of diplomacy, is under this doctrine not less important but more important than ever before.
Well, the whole atomic age and the speed with which things move, as well as the terrible and devastating results of atomic attack obviously make consultation more important than ever before. Then the minister goes on to say:
Any decisions must surely be collective, whenever that can be done, before action has to be taken.
Well, of course they should be collective. But the great question is-and it is the great and unanswered question; and until it is answered I cannot see how we can accept the minister's feeling of reassurance-when can that be done and what means are being worked out to ensure that it will be done? Until we have that answer it seems to me that a statement of that sort-"Any decisions must surely be collective, whenever that can be done, before action has to be taken"- leaves us perhaps even in a more uncertain frame of mind than we were in before.
The next question is: What decisions are meant? Is it decisions as to general objectives, or decisions as to methods of retaliation, or decisions as to circumstances under which any sort of policy or retaliation will be followed; what sort of decisions are meant?
Then the other great question is: When can and when will that be done? What measure of agreement between nations is there

as to when it can and will be done? And so we are left with the essential problem on which I maintain we are entitled to be informed by the government: What does this government intend to do to assure that there will be brought into existence, if it does not exist now, adequate machinery so that there will be prior consultation, and that there will be agreed courses of action before those courses of action have to be implemented, in other words before the event of any Russian attack. Because, as I see it, there is not anything now in existence to ensure that there will be always that prior consultation and those agreed courses of action which can be set in motion immediately.
It seems to me that no country, least of all the United States, can contemplate the sort of delay that working out an agreed course of action might entail, after an attack against the West had been commenced. Therefore in the absence of evidence that there exists that consultative machinery now, which will enable us to arrive at an agreed course of action before attack, I cannot see any reason for reassurance, or any reason why the minister should be more satisfied after he was in Washington than before he went to Washington.
I should like the minister to tell us what is the Canadian policy, because certainly no country has a greater stake in this matter than Canada. What is the Canadian policy? What courses are we going to urge upon our allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to make sure that that organization becomes and is used as a consultative machinery to enable us to work out those great courses of action in so far as that is humanly possible in advance of a Russian attack? I say, "in so far as that is humanly possible" because it seems to me that where it is not possible-and we cannot anticipate every potential attack that may be made and where it may be made and when it may be made by the Russians or by any other aggressor-there has to be good faith and not all this trouble and to some extent these unrealistic misgivings that our allies intend almost to react or to act without consulting with us. But in those acts which cannot be foreseen and where even general principles cannot be worked out in advance, then we do have to rely upon good sense and mutual understanding.
I should like to return to another aspect of this whole matter of consulting which seems to have worried the minister so much, but on which he has also left us, or in certain very important aspects of which he has left this house, this parliament, in the dark. I refer there again to the matter of consultation or
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information, if you like, between the Canadian government and the Canadian parliament. That it seems to me has become a very immediate problem in the light of the developments which have taken place in our foreign policy, and particularly in the light of the fact that Canada has now undertaken commitments under a treaty of alliance, which is a relatively new departure in this country. It is interesting to note that the minister made an implied condemnation of Mr. Dulles for what he said by almost a suggestion-that is, before it was satisfactorily explained-of a return to a continental security complex. Here I read what the minister said at page 3329 of Hansard of his statement on Thursday. After analysing what Mr. Dulles might have meant in his January 12 speech, he said:
And yet, if we relied too much on that and depreciated the importance of local defence, that would be interpreted in many countries as meaning that some countries were expendable. And I doubt if we could maintain a coalition, even NATO, very long, on that basis. Inevitably there would be a retreat to isolation.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, this was by inference, as I read it at any rate, suggested by the minister as being a possible interpretation of Mr. Dulles' speech. The minister went on:
There would be a move towards what sometimes is called continental security, both in North America and-and this is sometimes forgotten-in Europe itself.
But security of this variety, continental security, is a delusion, because, and I think the house will agree with me, there can be no continental security without collective security. And there can be no collective security without collective arrangements for collective action.
Well, as I say, it is interesting to trace developments in this country, and it is interesting to contrast that with what was Canada's policy just four short years ago when, in the clearest possible language, the Prime Minister himself outlined the policy of continental security, that particular policy which the minister has said it would be so wrong for the United States or anyone else to put forward today. I am reading now from page 680 of Hansard for the second session of 1950. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that this session was called not very long after the outbreak of war in Korea, and the Prime Minister was discussing Canada's position with respect to sending forces to Europe under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. He said that what we were going to do was to make $300 million available. We were not going to make any commitments to send troops to Europe under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization because he said:
I say that because it seems perfectly obvious to me that if we are to get the greatest possible effective strength in Europe for the money and resources we devote to national and international security, $300 million spent on the equipping and

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arming of men already in Europe, men who are there, who have to be fed, clothed and lodged even if they are not armed, is going to provide much larger forces than the expenditure of the same amount of money in raising, equipping, arming, training, feeding, clothing and sheltering young Canadians who would, under the present condition of full employment, have to be drawn from the productive stream of this nation.
And the Prime Minister at another point on that same page said to an hon. member who had asked him a question:
I will say to him at once that the government of Canada at this time is not considering the raising of Canadian forces to dispatch to Europe as a deterrent to aggression in Europe.
So that we can say that just four short years ago no country was following more clearly and laying down more clearly a policy of continental security; that the job of European defence is a job for the Europeans. Surely, we shall help them with money and so on, but we are not going to help them with armed forces because their defence is primarily their own problem. And four short years later, not even four full years later, our Secretary of State for External Affairs condemns what he says is the implication in Secretary Dulles' speech of the return to continental defence policy.
It is interesting to see how far we have come in those four years along lines which I think we now all agree are correct; and the development which is important there is that we now have forces in Europe. We have a brigade group, we have an air division. The question now before us and the question with which most hon. members will agree with me is one that we are entitled to demand that this government should answer is: What happens under these conditions to the concept which has always been the accepted principle in Canada that there shall be consultation, not only between governments but between government and parliament before Canadians are permitted to act?
One recalls the history of discussions of this type. One realizes immediately that it has always been the accepted principle that the government will consult parliament, not only before there shall be declaration of war particularly but even before committing Canadian troops to military action. We can remind ourselves of what the Secretary of State for External Affairs said in March 1949, when he was discussing the North Atlantic treaty which had then just come into effect. At page 2098 of Hansard of March 28, 1949 the Secretary of State for External Affairs is reported to have said:
I need hardly add that If, in spite of our efforts to keep the peace, some member of this alliance is attacked and we are called upon to fulfil our

commitments, this country, this parliament and this government will act with the necessary determination and dispatch. So far as this government is concerned, Mr. Speaker, in the face of a national emergency so grave as to call into force our commitments under this pact, it would immediately desire to consult parliament. This has now become a regular procedure in our history, and no one of course would wish to depart from it. No government could fulfil the responsibility which action under this treaty would impose without being certain of the support of the people of this country expressed through their representatives in parliament.
There we have the principle enunciated by the Secretary of State for External Affairs in the first discussion of the North Atlantic treaty that before committing our forces to action we would consult parliament. If that were not definite enough the minister repeated himself on September 6, 1950, at the special session, where his remarks are reported at page 351 of Hansard. May I just remind the house that article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty states:
The parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all; and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by article 51 of the charter of the United Nations, will assist the party or parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
It was in the light of that commitment and speaking on this subject at a later date that the minister said as reported at page 351 of Hansard for September 6, 1950:
If there is an attack made on a member of the North Atlantic group, that is an attack on all the members of the group.
He was then asked by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green):
Including Canada?
And the minister answered:
Including Canada.
After some further words which do not change the substance of the quotation the minister said:
Parliament would then decide whether an attack had or had not been made on Canada. If parliament decided that such an attack had been made and we were at war, it is the custom of Canadians when they are attacked to fight back with materials and with men.
Then a little later he said:
I thought I had made that clear. An attack on western Germany which involved Canada by the decision of its parliament and its obligations under the North Atlantic pact would be met by materials and men.
What then is the position in the light of the fact that we have a brigade in Europe? Supposing the Russians attack in Germany

or in Austria. What is the position? What is the relation between the government and parliament it that development should occur while Canadian troops are in Europe? Are they to wait there until the government consults parliament?
The minister has laid great stress on this matter of consultation in the international sphere, but he has left us in the dark on the question of national consultation. The minister said on Thursday last, as reported at page 3330 of Hansard:
There is a second word to which I devoted some attention in my Washington speech, and that was the word "instantly". That word, in connection with the strategy we are discussing, involves no problem, as I see it, if there is a direct attack on your own territory, or indeed possibly on the territory of your neighbour, because then it becomes a question of self-preservation and quick, effective, and instant action is essential and would be taken by any country attacked. No one, I believe, would take exception to that.
What happens then in the light of those statements and in the light of the present position in Europe with Canadian forces there in an atomic age with the possibility of atomic attack? What happens to the principles enunciated in 1949 and 1950?
I conclude, sir, by repeating my position. This parliament is entitled to demand from the government a statement as to government policy on these issues. We are entitled to know from the government what they would do with respect to the matter of consulting parliament in this sphere in the event of an attack in Europe.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Mr. Speaker, I believe this has been quite a useful debate and I believe it wise that hon. members should periodically discuss international affairs in the world today.
I read some of the remarks made yesterday by the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) and I must congratulate him on his speech. The minister said as reported in this evening's newspaper:
If the nations of the world engage in a third world war, civilization would be destroyed, external affairs minister Pearson warned Sunday. . . Mr. Pearson said that "horrible devastation" would be brought about by the new atomic and chemical weapons devised by men.
"Should we ever get into world war in, there probably won't be more than a handful of people left", Mr. Pearson said.
He referred to the hydrogen bomb explosion in the Pacific and said he was glad that the public was now becoming acquainted with the fantastic power of the weapon. "That one bomb in the Pacific was more devastating than all the bombs dropped on Germany and Italy during the last war."
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The minister then blasted communism and used language similar to that often used in the house. He went on to say:
"But we will never defeat communism unless we understand it. We must have faith and a positive approach. We have to confront communism with something stronger and more dynamic."
There was little danger of communism triumphing in Canada, Mr. Pearson observed, so long as the people held to a "living belief". If they did not, the country would go by default.
Later on the minister added:
"So often in the international field today, problems are not all black and white. They are often in terms of grey and it is hard to find what is right and what is wrong".
Tonight, Mr. Speaker, I wish to deal with that suggestion that everything is not black and white. If I thought world war III were inevitable I would probably be using the sort of language used by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) and the leader of the Social Credit party (Mr. Low) in this debate. But I do not believe that we are going to have a third world war. I could be wrong; it is possible that we could have war, but I have no interest in being in this world if I am proved wrong. I believe that as long as there is a possibility that we can solve our problems peacefully we should refrain from using the sort of language used by the leader of the Social Credit party the other day when he took our leader to task. The hon. member said, as reported at page 3346 of Hansard:
This afternoon the C.C.F. leader said that we have got to live with the communists. I ask, "Is that right"? He says that the only alternative is to exterminate them or to be exterminated. In the light of these things, what should our policy be? Should it be our policy to resign ourselves to the hopeless future of trying to live with the devil himself?
Later on he said:
Of course it would mean the extermination of the venal tormentors and betrayers of humanity. Certainly it would, but better a few men shouid perish than the whole earth should waste.
Likewise, the Leader of the Opposition, winding up his speech on January 29, as reported at page 1622 of Hansard said:
Let us prevent this supreme catastrophe but, Mr. Speaker, let our voices be raised in a way that will leave no doubt that in Canada we want no bargain with the devil.
In the home in which I was brought up I was taught that that was a naughty word, and I went to the library to find out what it meant. There were quite a few definitions and I shall not place them on the record, but those of us who have some respect for the teachings of our parents would, I believe, wish that hon. members should refrain from using that sort of language. We have a great

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many words in the English language and I think hon. members who wish to express themselves should be able to find other words.
I wish to place myself in line with the leader of the C.C.F. party and the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Cameron), and to make sure I will be in good company I would like to call Sir Winston Churchill as our witness. I believe it is important that we should emphasize that the record in the present situation is not all black and white. We are not arrayed in snow-white garments and I do not believe the people behind the iron curtain should be described in the sort of manner in which they have been during this debate. Sir Winston Churchill said on May 19, 1953:
It is the policy of Her Majesty's government to avoid by every means in their power doing anything or saying anything which could check any favourable reaction that may be taking place and to welcome every sign of improvement in our relations with Russia.
A little later on he said:
It would certainly do no harm if, for a while, each side looked about for things to do which would be agreeable instead of being disagreeable to each other.
And a little later:
We all desire that the Russian people should take the high place in world affairs which is their due without feeling anxiety about their own security. I do not believe that the immense problem of reconciling the security of Russia with the freedom and safety of western Europe is insoluble. Indeed, if the United Nations Organization had the authority and character for which its creators hoped, it would be solved already.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, with Sir Winston Churchill, the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Cameron) and the leader of this group, I think we should try to realize that we are confronting very complex problems and that we want to explore every possible avenue to solve those problems without resorting to war. Let me remind the house, particularly the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of the Social Credit party, of the words in the preamble of the charter of the United Nations:
We the peoples of the United Nations determined to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, and for these ends to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international

peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples, . . .
I think one should not be branded as a fellow traveller or as using words that have not been used since Fred Rose was here when one suggests that Canada should be going "all out" to try to see if some method cannot be found to reconcile the differences which are very real between two giants, the one to the north and the other to the south.
I think it is a pity that Canada has not done as effective a job probably as has India in trying to bring together those great forces. I think it is unfortunate that the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) was not acceptable as secretary general of the United Nations. I am sure that people in all parts of the world have great admiration for him. Partly because of the policy of his government I think Canada failed to take the sort of stand that should have been taken on a number of occasions and thus prevented the Secretary of State for External Affairs from having one of the most important positions in all the world. I therefore think, Mr. Speaker, that Canada should be working harder than we are to promote better international understanding.
I think it was the hon. member for Simcoe North (Mr. Ferguson) who suggested that the Leader of the Opposition should be supplied with an R.C.A.F. plane for a trip around the world. I should like to develop that suggestion. It is my opinion-and I made this suggestion before the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) left-that someone from Canada should visit the U.S.S.R. I must say that, after I made my remarks, I had quite a number of letters, and they were all of a complimentary nature. I am surprised that some people thought that all I had to do was to make the suggestion and that the Prime Minister would have changed his itinerary and included a visit to Moscow; but the arrangements were made. I am sure the Prime Minister did not resent my suggestion.
I think we are all proud of the fact that our Prime Minister has been such a good ambassador in so many countries, and I hope he will live long enough to have a visit to the U.S.S.R. But in the meantime I would suggest, in all seriousness, that an effort be made to send from the Canadian parliament a delegation to visit the U.S.S.R. I hope that Your Honour the Speaker would be persuaded to lead the delegation and that

the Secretary of State for External Affairs, the Leader of the Opposition, the leader of the C.C.F. group and the leader of the Social Credit group would be members of it. Then I think the women should be represented. We have three women on this side of the house. I think they should select one of their number and I feel that the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mrs. Shipley) should be on it. Then we are fortunate in having in the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll) someone who was born in Russia. Although he has not had a chance to speak the language for some time, I am sure that he could, without too much trouble, act as interpreter for the group. I make this suggestion in all seriousness.
I think it is a great pity that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) has been the only member of the Canadian parliament who has made an effort, as far as I know, to visit the U.S.S.R. since the war ended; and no one has ever suggested he was a communist because he had gone there or that his visit had converted him to communism. But I think the visit that was paid by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre at least made a start in trying to convey to the people of the U.S.S.R. that all Canadians do not share the hatred that is expressed by some of our people who are most vocal.
I have over 2,000 people of Russian origin living in my constituency and I have no reason to think that their cousins, uncles or aunts who are behind the iron curtain are beasts or people who would not be reasonable. I am not suggesting that this delegation go there with the expectation that they would not return. I am sure they are all courageous people who would be prepared to take the risk, but I do not feel that there would be any risk at all. I think that Senator McCarthy would not be in a strong position in complaining about a group of Canadian members joining the communist party. I think that a visit such as the one I have proposed would at least indicate that Canada would like to find out a little bit more about Russia and would like to find out whether we could find a basis for agreement. I would not imagine that the Leader of the Opposition or the leader of the Social Credit party would make the sort of speeches that they made here, but if they felt like making them in Moscow I feel sure that they would find an interesting hearing. As I said, I throw out this suggestion for what it is worth. I hope that the committee that is going to consider these estimates will give consideration to it and that some time action will be taken.
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I want to say a few words about the work of the United Nations, especially the specialized agencies. The hon. member for Mount Royal (Mr. Macnaughton) made an interesting speech the other night. I am sorry that there were not more in the house at the time to listen to it. He made in quite a friendly tone some remarks to which I think the minister and the department should pay some attention. He complained about the fact that we are giving very poor publicity in Canada to the work that is being done by the United Nations and the specialized agencies. He mentioned the fact that the C.B.C. has not a full-time person at the United Nations and that the Canadian press is not represented. None of the wealthy papers, or none of the syndicates in Canada are represented. I think we should not put the blame on the newspapers. I think it is a pity, though, that the work that is being done at the United Nations is not being relayed back to Canada as actively as it is being carried on.
I am happy to say that in Canada up to the moment there is not any active opposition to the United Nations. South of the border I found quite a number of publications at United Nations headquarters to answer the anti-United Nations propaganda there. Here is one that I brought back. It is entitled "The United Nations-Facts and Fallacies". It outlines some of the fallacies and gives the answers. Among the fallacies mentioned are:
The U.N. threatens to destroy U.S. sovereignty...
The U.N. charter threatens the destruction of our constitution . . .
The U.N. is a nest of communist spies . . .
The U.N. is controlled by Soviet Russia and communists . . .
The U.N. dragged the U.S. into the Korean struggle . . .
The U.N. can send American boys to fight anywhere any time . . .
Then there is this one:
The U.N. does not name God in its charter, does not open its meetings with prayer, and is therefore atheistic.
Again:
The U.N. costs too much. It is a heavy burden for the U.S. taxpayer to bear.
And so on.
I am very happy as I said that we have no organizations in Canada that are active in trying to get the Canadian government to reduce the very small expenditures that have been made for the work of the United Nations and the specialized agencies, but I would remind the minister that the hon. member for Mount Royal pointed out that we are only paying 10 cents per person per

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year for the work of the United Nations and another 10 cents per person for the work of the specialized agencies. That is not good enough. If we can spend $2 billion on our defence program I think we can spend more than 20 cents per person per year for the work of the United Nations and the specialized agencies. The Canadian people are, I think, tremendously concerned about the fact that two-thirds of the people of the world are hungry all the time. We know that we have food and could produce more. We have the know-how, and we should be doing something to bring about a realization of the aims and objectives of the food and agriculture organization.
Speaking on the 10th of February, the minister made reference to the work being done by the specialized agencies. He told us about the amazing results achieved by the common hoe, of the farmer from Arkansas who obtained great results by introducing the hitherto unheard-of common hoe. Apparently 30,000 hoes were sent. Having spent some time at the business end of a hoe, I know that it is an effective weapon, but I think that anyone who can operate a hoe can in a reasonable period of time operate a tractor. I think that most people in this day and age, having had experience fighting weeds both with the tractor and cultivator and the hoe, will prefer to use tractors, discs, one-ways and cultivators to eradicate this enemy, the weed. But it is possible that having a hoe is better than having no hoe, and until we can get our tractors over there it is probably a very good thing to send a few thousand hoes. But I think that we should be spending more than 10 cents per Canadian per year to try to get the productive areas in the world producing food.
Then we have the world health organization. Half the people of the world are sick all the time. If we have the good fortune to choose Canada for our birth place we can hope to live longer. I think the age is going up all the time. According to the last figures I saw it was 64 for males and 69 for women. But in half of Asia you cannot hope to live beyond the age of 30. With half the people in the world unable to read or write they are not going to make very rapid progress in solving the problems of shortage of food and shortage of nurses and doctors.
Therefore I submit that the Secretary of State for External Affairs must get backing from parliament to make additional funds available, and Canadian delegates at the United Nations must be able to give more leadership with a view to tackling the problems of hunger, illiteracy and sickness

throughout the world. I might add that in preparing my remarks for this evening I got in touch with the minister's office to try to get some up-to-date information as to just what Canada has done in the fields of technical aid, UNESCO, health and agriculture. I was very kindly referred to the Department of Agriculture which is in close touch with FAO in Rome. The man I spoke to in the Department of Agriculture was very co-operative but apparently he had a limited amount of time in which to do a great many jobs.
I had the same experience in the department of health. When I called the branch that is supposed to be responsible for UNESCO I was told that the man who really is in charge is spending his holidays preparing a report that he could not prepare in office hours in order to have something available on the work of UNESCO. All I wanted to find out was who are some of the Canadians who have gone overseas in the fields of agriculture, health and education. The men of the departments were all very apologetic but they were not able to supply the information. They really should have it but they did not. Before a condition of active opposition to the work of the United Nations and its specialized agencies develops, I think we should make information available to the Canadian public that will challenge their imagination.
For example, Dr. Harrington of the university of Saskatchewan had an assignment in Egypt for FAO and another one in India. On his return from these places I heard him tell a most fascinating story of these FAO projects in Egypt and India. By doubling the production of rice they are going to make some contribution to relieving a condition where two-thirds of the people are hungry every year. But apparently Dr. Harrington is not known in Ottawa. I think there should be some place in Canada where information could be made available to the Canadian public about work such as Dr. Harrington and Professor Hardy have been doing.
The Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) had a very brilliant student in his university, the University of New Brunswick, who had a distinguished record in the air force and went to Ethiopia after graduation. I think it would be interesting to find out what he has done there but I cannot find out where he is living or what he is doing. I am sure this chap, who did such an outstanding job with the air force and at university, will be doing an impressive job in Ethiopia or wherever he is. I suggest that the minister should find the necessary funds to set up the kind of information service we had in Canada during the

war when the work of the air force, the army, the navy and the industrial machine was made known to the Canadian people. We knew as we went along something of the things we were able to achieve collectively. Even though we are only making a modest contribution to these specialized agencies, I think it is a pity to make it so difficult for a member of parliament or anyone else in Canada to find out where Canadians are, what they are doing and what they are planning to do.
I conclude my remarks by quoting the concluding paragraph in this publication of the United Nations from which I read before. It reads:
Never has a generation had such a challenge. Never has a generation had such an opportunity. It can be done. It will be done when we the people of the nations will it so and put into full action the basic purposes and principles upon which the United Nations is founded. We the peoples . . . determined, can have the kind of world we want.


Mr. J. H. Blackmore (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, it has been suggested that Canada recognize the present red regime in China. To see such a proposal in its true perspective it is necessary to know, to realize and to appreciate several generally not too well recognized facts which pertain to the situation confronting us. First, the coming to power of the red regime in China was the result of red conquest, not successful red revolution. There may be discussion concerning that matter, but I am prepared to take on all comers on that proposition any time they desire to come to the committee where we can get at each other. May I suggest that the main cause of disagreement in the country and in the house between the Social Credit group, for example, and the C.C.F., between the Conservatives and the C.C.F., centres right around that point.
The C.C.F. and the C.C.F.-Liberals seem to take for granted that what has happened in China was a successful revolution, and that the government which now controls China is a Chinese party which rebelled, honestly and straightforwardly, against the existing government, and unaided and of its own will and volition, supported by the majority of the Chinese people, succeeded in defeating the existing government.
Now, if that were the case the story would be one way. But suppose it were found that at every stage for twenty-five long years the Russian government was sinisterly behind the Chinese communist organization, and wherever the Chinese nationalists defeated the Chinese organizations, the Russian government came in to support them and give every advantage. Now, that would make a tremendous difference, would it not? If what happened in that case were found to be 83276-219i
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in the process of happening all over the world, it would be a very serious situation for everybody concerned.


Mr. Sluder:: It would be worse than that.


John Horne Blackmore: That is right. This is the first important fact to bear in mind. The second is that the red conquest of the mainland of China was but one more step in Stalin's twenty-five-year-long campaign against the stubborn and heroic resistance of the Chinese nationalist government of China, behind which nationalist government the overwhelming majority of the Chinese people were at all times solidly standing, right up to the very end, the close of world war II. Now, that makes another serious difference.
The third important fact is that this twenty-five-year-long red campaign was characterized by a bewildering combination of cunning, duplicity and treachery such as has accompanied all the moves of an utterly unmoral, unscrupulous, unrelenting and insatiable monster. A good many who laugh may laugh on the other side of their faces if that monster gets into Canada, as it is rapidly getting in. This insatiable monster is the Turko-Mongolian-red conspiracy which the free world faces today.
The fourth fact is that this twenty-five-year-long red campaign, and the final conquest of China is but one more move by this Turko-Mongolian conspiracy in a deliberate, century-long campaign, secretly and craftily designed many generations ago, to bring the whole world into abject and perpetual servitude to an absolute world government, the personnel of which will be clandestinely selected Turko-Mongolian reds or their dupes. Now, there will be those who will doubt that such a gloomy picture could have a solid basis in fact. May I draw the attention of such people to this exceedingly serious matter, in my mind: As we trace and study all the conditions in the United States concerning red spies in the administration, we find that these red spies are chased from one section to another of the administration until they are finally weeded out, and then where do they go? They go to the United Nations.


Mr. Philpott:: Nonsense.


John Horne Blackmore: Once more-


An hon. Member:: Name them.


John Horne Blackmore: I could easily name them.


Alfred Claude Ellis: Give us one name?


John Horne Blackmore: I have them right here and when the time comes and we get into committee, I will take on all the C.C.F. group, one at a time, on this proposition, and establish the proposition beyond any shadow of a

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doubt. I have the document right here which will establish the matter quite rightly.


Elmore Philpott: What is the name of it?


John Horne Blackmore: It is the report of an eminent body in the United States that everyone will accept once it is given. I do not propose to cover that tonight. I am speaking in purely general terms and our object is to determine whether or not, in the face of existing circumstances, Canada is wise in even considering the recognition of Red China.
The fifth extremely serious fact is that this twenty-five-year-long Red campaign and final conquest of China was decisively aided and abetted by the communist organization in the United States. Prominent among the communists and communist dupes whose efforts defeated Chiang Kai-shek was for example Lauchlin Currie. There is one of your men. He is not in the United Nations as yet, but he is on his way. As an example of the kind of thing that was done, this communist Lauchlin Currie signed an order, written on White House stationery, ordering that none of the mountains of captured guns and ammunition held in the possession of the United States be sent to Chiang Kai-shek and his friends in China. This was done in spite of the fact that General Eisenhower and his advisers ordered a vast amount of that material to be sent to friends of the United States in China. Now how many moves like that in the United States administration would it require to destroy all possibility of Chiang Kai-shek standing up against the innumerable communists who were pouring down from the north?
Here is another serious point. I give only one illustration, but I could give dozens of them if it were fitting to give them tonight. The sixth very important fact bearing upon this whole matter is that Russia and her satellites, her immediately prospective victims, as well as the whole of the free world, would immediately look upon Canadian recognition of China as another surrender to Russia and consequently another victory for Russia.
The seventh important fact is this: Bearing in mind what has been happening for thirty-five years now, any Canadian government official who can believe that recognizing Red China could persuade Red China to desist from further attempts at conquest must be regarded as naive, if not puerile.
Contemplating these seven facts, one must, I submit, agree that under present circumstances for Canada to recognize the red government in China would be for Canada to give comfort to her greatest enemy,

and incidentally the greatest enemy mankind ever saw on the face of the earth, and to scatter dismay among the world's millions of her friends and potential friends.
Once again may I say that if I am wrong in the assumption that there is a conspiracy of men working together consistently and determinedly and unscrupulously for conquest of the world; if I am wrong in that assumption, I say, then the validity of my whole position naturally would be weakened. But the evidence I have been able to gather in the last few years indicates beyond per-adventure that I am right in my assumption.
Now, just to give a bit of the evidence: I know in this strange generation, in which everything is denied and controverted, it is extremely difficult to find witnesses, documents or authority that any considerable number of people will accept. Nevertheless we must try to find such documents-those of us who cannot go to every individual corner of the globe and acquire all the knowledge there is to be acquired. And we are all in that class. It is therefore of importance that we have some documents which might reasonably be accepted as authentic.
I wish to read to the house the last two paragraphs of an open letter dated August 31, 1953, for release on September 6, 1953, from the American China Policy Association, Incorporated, located at No. 1 west 37th street, New York 18, New York. These paragraphs are as follows:
Is it true that some of the foreign service officers are still pressing for recognition of Red China, which we all know would mean Chinese consulates from Pearl Harbor to Boston, loaded with spies;
Then, second:
our 80,000 Chinese non-citizens in this country delivered over to the ruthless power of Red China;
And, third:
-and which would amount to notice to Japan, the Philippines, and the rest of Asia that they had best make their deals with Red China before it is too late?
In short, Mr. Secretary, will the sound advice the president is sure to get from you, Senator Knowland, Congressman Judd, etc., be, as before " . . . challenged by reports from certain foreign service officers . . . praising the communists and recommending a course of action directly contrary . . .*'?
Very sincerely yours,
George Schuyler, President American China Policy Association, Inc.
The general tone of those words seems to indicate that what I have said is probably based upon a considerable amount of solid realism. This letter was written to the Hon. Walter S. Robertson, assistant secretary of state for far eastern affairs, Washington, D.C. As I have indicated these paragraphs show

clearly that the American China Policy Association believes that recognition of Red China would mean, first, the establishment of Chinese Red consulates in Canada, and I am applying this to Canada, just as the letter applies to the United States. It would involve Chinese consulates in Canada, each filled with swarms of the most evil enemies Canada could possibly harbour in her bosom.
There will be members like the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) who will wish to challenge the word "evil". I ask any member in the house if he could possibly apply any word other than the word "evil" to the communist agitators in Canada today. Get around where they talk; listen to the words they use; read the directives they issue. Evil just fairly exudes from every single word they utter, and the spirit with which they speak. There is nothing about them but evil. Why have a whole lot more of this same disreputable type of people who are at the present time such an unqualified curse to the United States; and to Canada, so far as they have become established in our country?
Secondly, these paragraphs indicate that the recognition of Red China would mean turning over to the unprincipled mercy of Red tyranny all of Canada's Chinese noncitizens. How many of these we have in Canada I am not sure; but just imagine turning over innocent men and women to a group of people as unprincipled as communists have proved themselves to be, at all points in the world to which they have extended their power. These people could be called to China and subjected to the utterly unbelievable tortures the communists inflict.
Again, recognition of Red China would mean giving notice to Japan, the Philippines and the rest of Asia that they had better make the best possible deal with Red China before it is too late. The news indicates today that dismay is being spread throughout Indo-China. Great numbers of people who up to the present time have fought courageously to withstand the communists are now becoming terrified and are thinking that if, after all, everybody is going to desert them, they might as well join the reds and escape as much of the punishment as they can.
The letter I have just read was written to the Hon. Walter S. Robertson, assistant secretary of state for far eastern affairs, Washington, D.C. And who are the members of this American China Policy Association who wrote the letter? I shall place those
External Affairs
names on record. I am sure some will expect to hear Chinese names, but they will be disappointed.
These are the names:
President: George S. Schuyler.
Vice presidents: Alfred Kohlberg, Irene Kuhn, William Loeb, Dr. Maurice William.
Secretary and treasurer: Emma DeLong Mills.
Board of directors: Alfred Kohlberg, chairman; Marguerite Atterbury, Dr. Alexander Baird, John Earl Baker, Maj. Gen. David P. Barrows, William E. Bohn, Rt. Rev. John P. Boland, Edna Lee Booker, Dr. Karl Brandt, William Henry Chamberlin, Admiral Chas. M. Cooke, Jr.; Bishop Fred Pierce Corson, George Creel, Frank R. Cross-waith, Dr. Benedict J. Duffy, Jr.; Hon. George H. Earle, Max Eastman, Rev. James W. Fifield, Jr.; Geraldine Fitch, Varian Fry, Rev. J. C. Jensen, Lois Butler Jensen, Rear Admiral I. C. Johnson, Rep. J. Leroy Johnson, Rev. William R. Johnson, Rep. Walter H. Judd, William C. Kernan, Lucian S. Kirtland, Irene Kuhn, William Loeb, Edna Lonigan, Rev. Daniel A. Lord, S. J.; Dr. Frank L. Meleney, Emma DeLong Mills, Mrs. Victor Morawetz, Hon. James R. Nolen, Rev. Ronald Norris, C.P.; John O'Connor, John S. Potter, Dr. Roscoe Pound, Dr. Leland Rex Robinson, Mrs. Joseph Schumpeter, George S. Schuyler, Dr. Charles Ernest Scott, Dr. Aura Severinghaus* Margaret Proctor Smith, William H. Smyth, Freda Utley, Dr. Donald D. Van Slyke, Louis Waldman, Dr. Jerome P. Webster, Dr. Maurice William, Maj. Gen. Charles A. Willoughby.
Do not these people appeal to hon. members as being pretty solid and steady citizens of the United States? You find no Chinese names there. You certainly find no communist names there.


An hon. Member:: How do you know?


John Horne Blackmore: Because they simply would not be on this list. They would all be like the C.C.F.; they would be in favour of recognition. You could approach a C.C.F. person from coast to coast and you would find that he would want recognition of China. It is the way they think. May I point out that in that list is one Freda Utley who is the writer of "The China Story", which is one of the most realistic and thoroughly documented books to be found anywhere, which bears out in great detail the general statements that I have made here tonight.
In the course of my remarks later I propose to refer to certain contents of a letter by Mr. Walter S. Robertson, this very man who is now assistant secretary of state for far eastern affairs in Washington. He wrote the letter dated October 8, 1949 to Ambassador Philip C. Jessup of those days. I propose to select certain passages from that letter so that we might judge as to what that man thought of the recognition of Red China. By the way, Philip C. Jessup at that time was ambassador at large of the department of state, Washington, D.C.

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Hon. members would naturally desire to know who this Walter S. Robertson had been just before he wrote his October 8, 1949 letter to the Hon. Philip Jessup.
Walter S. Robertson served in China for approximately eighteen months, first with the United States embassy as minister counsellor and second between the ambassadorships of General Hurley and Dr. Stuart as charge d'affaires, all of this in China. He was then for ten months commissioner and chairman of the Peking executive headquarters. Here is a man who, if he had his eyes open and was honest, probably knew a good deal about China. Mr. Robertson's duties brought him into close personal contact with the highest government officials and with the highest communist officials. He was going back and forth between the two groups of men. Mr. Robertson's reactions to the chaotic scenes in China were at least based upon firsthand impressions. All that I have just given you is to be found in the second paragraph of the letter-which I shall not read to hon. members. It contains the facts which I have given concerning his eighteen months of experience in China.
What does Mr. Robertson think of recognition of China? May I read some very brief extracts from his letter which tend to indicate that. In the letter of October 8, 1949 at page 4, we find these words:
I am strongly of the opinion that recognition of the communist regime would not be to the best interests either of China's suffering millions or of ourselves.
Further down at the end of the paragraph he uses these words:
... if the communists were allowed to stew in their own juice for a time, they would, in my opinion, soon begin to be confronted with the same overwhelming economic and social problems which contributed so largely to the downfall of the national government.
Again he says:
Recognition would bring re-establishment of trade and possibly economic assistance, both vitally necessary to the permanent maintenance of any semblance of economic stability. It would also bring tremendous prestige to the communist movement throughout Asia.
In the next paragraph he uses these words:
Withholding recognition would seem to offer the Chinese people some hope of eventually escaping communist domination and control. And important from our standpoint, it would seem to offer the best hope of re-establishing American prestige and influence in the Pacific.
A final brief quotation closes the letter:
Of one fact we can be certain. The leaders of the communist movement in China are zealous consecrated Marxists intense in their loyalty to Moscow and haters of everything we are and stand for.
[Mr. Blackmore.l
If these words do not bear out exactly what I have said about the nature of the Turko-Mongolian conspiracy which confronts the world today, then I would be very much surprised. Hon. members can draw their own conclusions. Walter Robertson is a man who had been away from the United States long enough so that one would not feel that he was actuated by too much political animosity on one side or the other. I would imagine that you would be justified in trusting this man's words as those of a realistic, objective observer of conditions in China.
I now wish to raise another question. I do not wish to quote anything the minister said. By the way, I do not want to be hard on the minister. I realize that he is in about one of the most difficult positions a man could possibly be in, and I want to approach these problems with sympathy, but at the same time I must be as critical as he has a right to expect an opposition member to be, because that is the only way in which he can get support from the opposition.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John Horne Blackmore: That is, in having observations which will point out anything that he may overlook in his earnest desire to solve the problem which confronts him.
I think the minister indicated in one of his talks recently that he had been greatly disillusioned. He had been an idealist; he had been hoping that by constantly extending the hand of fellowship to these communist people he could by and by satisfy them, by and by get them to the point where they would say: we shall try to be decent from here on. But he has discovered that notwithstanding his good will, notwithstanding his every effort-and I think every hon. member will agree that our Secretary of State for External Affairs has certainly done his best as far as talking reason, moderation and common sense to everybody connected with this is concerned-despite all of this the minister has just begun to realize what he should have known six years ago. It was not the minister's fault. I am not saying it is the minister's fault. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that the things which I have said here tonight are based on information which largely came into my possession only within the last two years, things which I have discovered and which I had only just had an inkling of previously to that time.
I had thought at one time that perhaps if we gave the Soviets safe borders they would probably be content. They are always clamouring for "security on boundaries," but the more security of boundaries they obtain

the more they want. I would not be surprised that if they got everything except the North American continent they would want to be given some bases in Canada as a means of security against the United States. Well, what can you do with people like that?
There is going to come a time when you have got to draw the line and say: Now, friends, thus far and no farther! Where are you going to draw that line, and when are you going to draw it? The minister realizes how dangerous the situation is in Indochina today. He is fully aware of it. He probably knows things that we do not know because we have to rely only on the press, but certainly the story from Indo-China is anything but reassuring today. It is still serious and if the Russians continue-and it is Russia; let us not delude ourselves that it is China that is going into Indo-China; it is Russia using Chinese manpower-if Russia pursues her course and keeps on going down the direction she is going she will cut off from us many of the most vital supplies for the conduct of war. Everybody remembers what a dangerous position we found ourselves in in the last war with Japan. That country captured island after island after island, and thus we lost such things as rubber and other commodities which we basically needed. Everybody realizes that. Well, Russia is doing exactly the same thing; every square mile of that territory she brings under her control puts us to a great disadvantage and her to a greater advantage. When are we going to draw the line? We must draw it at some time; otherwise we are simply going to sit here trembling like a bird charmed by a serpent, waiting for the serpent to come up and accommodatingly swallow us.
Reference was made to the minister's remarks yesterday concerning the great hydrogen bomb. Well of course those bombs terrify; of course they do! If it had not been for the unbelievable spies in the United States and in Canada Russia would not have had those bombs today. It is almost certain that she has just as big bombs as we have, and maybe she is farther along in the development of the cobalt bomb than we are. Well, to use the common expression: So what! Are we going to sit quivering and give up everything our fathers fought and died for for thousands of years simply because it is possible that one of these bombs might be dropped and wipe us out of existence? If so, let us get together and send a gold-plated invitation to Russia and say: "Come on, brethren, we are not going to fight you. Come on over here and we will tell
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you where to set up your headquarters. We are not having any more of this, we know you have got us licked." I would ask hon. members, is that the way our fathers acted? Do you suppose that is the way our greatgrandchildren should read of how we acted? We face a serious responsibility.
I am not sure whether it is fitting that I should go into this matter; but I feel I should. Let me point out that one man who seems to be realistic and competent in matters of military strategy emphasizes that the very best means of attacking Russia today is through Formosa and Korea. He points out that if we will pour our forces in behind Chiang Kai-shek and supply him with a vast amount of arms, ammunition, airplanes and all the other things necessary, he will fight his way on to the Chinese mainland. Chiang Kai-shek will be supported by tens of millions of Chinese who were his loyal supporters before he was driven off the mainland by United States communists working through the American administration.
If we support Syngman Rhee in a similar way he will renew his struggle with the northerners. He and Chiang Kai-shek appear to be the only men, as far as I have been able to find out, who have what it takes to stand up to the enemy. Both these men seem to possess that quality.
We all know perfectly well from the reports we received from General Van Fleet and General Douglas MacArthur that we could have defeated the North Koreans. There is no reason why we could not defeat them today if we gave Syngman Rhee our support.
When we recognize Red China we will put ourselves in a very compromising position. If we decide to fight later on, after Russia has another two or three hundred million additional people on her side, then we shall really be in a compromising position, because we should be fighting Red China which through our recognition of Red China we had signified as our friend and supporting Chiang Kai-shek, whom by the same action we had signified as our enemy.
I do not believe there is any military strategist in this house who does not see the possibilities in that situation. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, when the time comes, and it will come, because we are not going to lie down -there is not a man in this house who will vote for giving in to Russia-when we decide, as we will decide, where are we going to attack? How are we going to attack? Are we going to endeavour to send our few boys against approximately 800 million Russians? Or are we going to endeavour to do what Russia does?

External Affairs
Russia does not win new states with Russians. She did not win China with Russians. She won China with Chinese working under Russian direction. If we are going to win China back we should win it back with Chinese aided by our own forces. If we decide to stand up to Russia where could we attack? I know there are a number of men in this house with considerable military experience, good strategists, and I would like to know where they would attack? Could anyone suggest a better method of attacking than the one through South Korea and Formosa which I have suggested? An attack which would enable us to use the enemy's men instead of our own? I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this matter of future military strategy is one which must weigh heavily in our minds whenever we contemplate this question of the recognition of China.	*
There is another matter to which I wish to give some attention and that is the matter of Chiang Kai-shek. I do not wish to go into much detail concerning this man, but it is surprising to hear the kind of stories that are circulated about Chiang Kai-shek. There seems to be an idea in the minds of a great many people that Chiang Kai-shek was corrupt. As far as I can find he was not corrupt, but it seems to be supposed that because he was corrupt we were entitled to throw him off the mainland and let the communist government in no matter how corrupt it may be. That seems to be the sort of slant we find in the minds of a great many Canadian people. I talked with one the other day and he said: "I cannot be very enthusiastic about Chiang Kai-shek. He is a sort of rotter." Who told that person Chiang Kai-shek was a rotter? The communists in the United States.


Some hon. Members:: No.


John Horne Blackmore: Yes. What do we know about Chiang Kai-shek? I have already stated that Chiang Kai-shek was thrown off the Chinese mainland by a conspiracy in the United States. The public in the United States and Canada had foisted upon them a ruinous program in China. In regard to that matter I would like to draw to the attention of hon. members a very fine speech delivered by Senator Owen Brewster of Maine on June 5, 1951. That speech can be found in the records of the United States. The subject of the speech is "A Guide Book to Ten Years of Secrecy in our Chinese Policy." Why secrecy in dealing with China? That secrecy has spread from the United States to Canada.


Elmore Philpott: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think the hon. member's time is up.


John Horne Blackmore: It would have been rather more gracious on the part of the hon. member to let Mr. Speaker point out that fact.


Elmore Philpott: Others may want to speak.


John Horne Blackmore: I notice that the hon. member always gets up whenever I begin to speak about something which the hon. member does not want to hear. Here is a very fine book called "While You Slept" by John T. Flynn, published in 1951. From that book may I quote these very brief words:
The only difference between Russia's war on China and her war on Korea was that in Korea we aided and armed the South Koreans to fight communism, while in China, incredible as it may seem, we actually told the Chinese government to do what Russia wanted-unite with the communists. When Chiang Kai-shek refused, we disarmed him.
I think that would be rather conclusive. That is from "While You Slept", at page 15.


Mr. Depuiy Speaker:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but I am obliged to advise him that his time has just expired.


John Horne Blackmore: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I shall have more to say about this matter in the future. I want members of the C.C.F. to remember what I said about meeting them straight on when we get into committee.


Mr. A. M. Fraser (St. John's East):: Mr. Speaker, I have followed this debate with great interest. May I say how greatly I have been impressed by the high level which has been maintained throughout. I feel that everyone who has spoken in this debate has been fully conscious of the sombre background against which the debate is being held. I refer to the black cloud which arose in the Pacific on March 1, the time of the experiment with the hydrogen bomb. The lurid flash of that bomb illumined, as it were, the thinking of mankind upon the tremendous and terrifying situation in which we find ourselves. We realize, I believe, that for the first time in his history man now has the power to destroy himself and all his works. The seriousness of this situation has been reflected in the high seriousness and tone of this debate.
We are all conscious of the frightening tragedy that would ensue if the hydrogen bomb were used. I think we feel that at all costs we must avert the tragedy of a third world war. But if that tragedy is to be averted, the first essential, in my humble opinion, is that there must be clear and complete understanding amongst the governments and peoples of the free nations. It is for that reason that I should like to congratulate most heartily the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) on the signal

service which he has rendered by inducing Mr. Dulles, the Secretary of State of the United States, to clarify that momentous statement he made on January 12.
I was greatly surprised to hear the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) assert in this house tonight that the speech made by our Secretary of State for External Affairs to the national press club in Washington and the statement that followed it by Mr. Dulles in his article in Foreign Affairs has shed no light on the original statement by Mr. Dulles. I certainly cannot agree with that estimate. That statement of January 12 by the United States Secretary of State I have described as momentous. I think it was momentous for several reasons. First, it gave a clear and unequivocal warning to potential aggressors; second, it seemed at first sight at any rate, to place great emphasis upon the utilization by the western powers of those resources in which they have the greatest advantage such as, for instance, their scientific supremacy, their technical know-how, their industrial skill; all of which may be regarded as offsetting the vast, almost unlimited manpower of the Soviet bloc. But nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, that statement inspired serious misgivings.
What were some of the causes of the uneasiness produced by the Dulles new look statement. First of all, of course,-as the Secretary of State for External Affairs clearly showed in his speech on Thursday in this house-there was the question as to whether there would be prior consultation between the United States and its allies before resort was had to this policy of instant and massive retaliation. Fears were expressed in many quarters that the United States might be lapsing into a policy of continentalism.
I have before me here extracts from Mr. Dulles' article in the April issue of Foreign Affairs, an article which followed the speech by our Secretary of State for External Affairs in Washington. I quote from Mr. Dulles' statement as follows:
The cornerstone of security for the free nations must be a collective system of defence. They clearly cannot achieve security separately. No single nation can develop for itself defensive power of adequate scope and flexibility. In seeking to do so, each would become a garrison state and none would achieve security.
And Mr. Dulles went on to say this:
This is true of the United States. Without the co-operation of allies, we would not even be in a position to retaliate massively against the war industries of an attacking nation.
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Then he added a reference to the use of bases of the United States in foreign countries:
The free world system of bases is an integral part of its collective security. At the recent four-power conference in Berlin, Mr. Molotov repeatedly attacked these bases as evidence of aggressive purpose. Actually these bases on the territory of other sovereign countries are merely a physical expression of the collective security system.
Then he went on to say this:
They were constructed only at the request of the host nation and their availability depends upon its consent, usually as a legal condition and always as a practical one. The requisite consent to the use of these bases would never be accorded unless it was clear that their use was in response to open aggression, and reasonably related to its scope and nature. This gives assurance of their community function.
What Mr. Dulles said in his article in Foreign Affairs he restated, perhaps even more emphatically, in a press conference which he held in Washington on March 16. I quote from the report of that conference as it appeared in the New York Times of March 17. This is Mr. Dulles answering a question, and he said:
It is, I think, well known that the bases which we have in foreign countries are in general not usable as a matter of law, and as a practical matter are not usable except with the consent of the countries where the bases are. For example, the bases which are available to our strategic air force in Great Britain are not usable as a base of attack except with the consent of the British government. The same is true in general with all our foreign bases. Therefore, it is implicit in our security system that it operates with the consent and acquiescence of the other partners who have helped to provide the facilities which create a sort of international police system.
Later in that same press conference when asked if there would be consultation Mr. Dulles said:
Yes, there would certainly be consultation in most of the cases that I can conceive of.
Now, Mr. Speaker, admittedly Mr. Dulles' statement does not say that there will be consultation in every conceivable case, but it does say that there will be consultation in most cases and that there could not be use made of United States bases in other countries without the consent of the host country. That, I think, is important for us to know in Canada, particularly for those of us who live in parts of Canada where the United States has military bases as, for example, in Newfoundland.
Another question which the new look statement of Mr. Dulles on January 12 raised in the minds of many people is this: Would the apparent reliance upon massive retaliatory action necessarily mean a general war? Would it mean that whenever aggression of any kind, even of a small kind, took place in any

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part of the world retaliation would be atomic? Would the effect of this new look policy be exactly the opposite of the effect which the United Nations strove to achieve in Korea in 1950 namely, to confine and localize the conflict and to prevent the extension of a local conflict into a world conflagration? Here, too I think the statement of our Secretary of State for External Affairs led Mr. Dulles to give us clarification because in that same article in the April issue of Foreign Affairs Mr. Dulles stated:
To deter aggression, it is important to have the flexibility and the facilities which make various responses available. In many cases, any open assault by communist forces could only result in starting a general war. But the free world must have the means for responding effectively on a selective basis where it chooses. It must not put itself in the position where the only response open to it is a general war.
Again, he said:
This calls for a system in which local defensive strength is reinforced by more mobile deterrent power.
He added:
In every endangered area there should be a sufficient military establishment to maintain order against subversion and to resist other forms of indirect aggression and minor satellite aggressions. This serves the indispensable need to demonstrate a purpose to resist and to compel any aggressor to expose his real intent by such serious fighting as will brand him before all the world and promptly bring collective measures into operation.
He concluded:
That does not mean turning every local war into a world war. It does not mean that if there is a communist attack somewhere in Asia atom or hydrogen bombs will necessarily be dropped on the great industries of China or Russia.
There, Mr. Speaker, is another very important point that has been clarified as a result of the questions put by our Secretary of State for External Affairs. Yet another misgiving has been removed by the same cause. One question which I think suggested itself to many of us after reading Mr. Dulles' January speech was whether the new look policy would involve United States withdrawal from western Europe, whether it would mean a retreat into continentalism. There is no need for me to emphasize how serious that would have been, particularly in its psychological effect upon the continental countries of western Europe, and more particularly France about whom I propose to say a little more in a few moments. But here again we have an assurance from Mr. Dulles as found again in the article in Foreign Affairs. He says:
Moreover, the program does not mean that we intend to pull our forces out of Europe. It is, of course, essential that the continental nations themselves provide a harmonious nucleus of integrated defence. If they do so, the United States would

expect to maintain substantial forces of its own in Europe, both in support of the forward strategy of defence and for political reasons.
I feel that assurance will have a useful psychological effect, more particularly in France where, as we know, there is even now very great reluctance to ratification of the EDC treaty. We were all glad, I know, to note from the speech of the Secretary of State for External Affairs that substantial progress has been made toward the realization of that very important project, but we are all aware, as he himself pointed out, that there are still serious hurdles to be surmounted. Perhaps the crucial obstacle is France herself. We know that France fears the resurgence of German militarism, and I would agree with the hon. member for Bosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) that we have every reason to sympathize with France. We know that she has been invaded three times in the last eighty odd years by Germany, that she has suffered grievously at Germany's hands. It is only natural that she should suspect the consequences of German rearmament, but surely the choice is not a simple choice between German rearmament and no German rearmament.
Sooner or later German rearmament would, it seems to me, be inevitable. The vacuum that at present exists cannot continue indefinitely and the true choice seems to be a Germany rearmed within the confines of an international system, international control, and a Germany rearmed outside such a system as EDC. Nor should we forget that the author of the EDC project was a Frenchman, Mr. Pleven, and that the best minds in France have seen in EDC perhaps the only solution.
Again, Mr. Speaker, I should like to point out that without some such form of international co-operation in western Europe, the defence of the continent will remain very weak indeed. Anything that can be done, therefore, to reassure France and to make her more likely to accept the EDC program seems to me to be an important step forward.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I should like to turn for a few moments from Europe to the Far East, and to join with other speakers from all parts of the house in welcoming the statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) on Thursday with reference to the recognition of the communist regime in China. I believe, and I am sure that many will agree with me, that statement showed a most statesmanlike approach to this very delicate problem. Personally, I was glad to hear that at present there is no intention to consider or even to contemplate recognition of the communist regime in China. I feel

that the communist regime, if it is to be recognized, must work its passage. The forthcoming conference at Geneva will, I think, be the first occasion upon which communist negotiators have sat down at a conference table with negotiators from the west. I believe we should perhaps regard that as a test of the good faith of the communist regime, not necessarily the one and only or final test but at least one test. I believe we should proceed in this matter with caution and make haste very slowly.
On the other hand I believe the Prime Minister was wise in pointing out that to adopt a never, never policy would not be sound. It would tie our hands diplomatically. It would not enable us to maintain a freedom of diplomatic manoeuvre. After all, in the changing circumstances of this age, no one can predict with certainty how far conditions may change in the years to come. For that reason, I think it is wise to maintain a flexible policy and to forswear a rigid course in these diplomatic matters.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I mentioned the Geneva conference. I feel that we are doing the right thing in being represented there. I hope that it may achieve a great measure of success. I am afraid that hope is more in the form of a wish rather than based upon fact and may contain a degree of optimism. I believe we should take advantage of every opportunity to negotiate, because eventually out of negotiations may come understanding and agreement. It may take time. It will take patience, but the alternative is so disastrous that negotiations must continue. Of course, I do agree with the sentiments that have been expressed in different parts of the house that in these negotiations we should negotiate from strength.
On motion of Mr. Green the debate was adjourned.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr, Harris moved: the adjournment of the house.
He said: We have been making good progress today, and I have hopes that we will do that tomorrow in this debate so that we might wind it up by five o'clock, after allowing ample time for the Secretary of State for External Affairs to fully answer the questions that have been raised during the course of the debate. If that occurs, we shall take the Criminal Code afterwards and will continue with it on Wednesday.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 9.57 p.m.
Supply
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:



DEPARTMENT OP AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Production service-
Health of animals-
547.	To provide for the payment of compensation to owners of animals affected with diseases coming under the operation of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, which have died or have been slaughtered under circumstances unprovided for under the above act and regulations thereunder, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $838.
548.	To provide for grants to fairs and exhibitions in accordance with the regulations established by order in council of December 22, 1952, P.C. 4602; for payments on account of agreements in force on December 22, 1952, with exhibition associations covering the construction of buildings and other major undertakings-further amount required and to authorize grants to the exhibitions as detailed in the estimates, $108,000.
Marketing service-
549.	Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, and grants, in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $63,083.
Terminable services-
550.	Agricultural lime assistance-further amount required, $85,000.
Special-
551.	Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and water storage-further amount required, $139,600.
552.	Major irrigation and reclamation projects in the prairie provinces-further amount required, $230,207.
553.	Estimated amount required to recoup the agricultural prices support account to cover the net operating loss of the agricultural prices support board during the fiscal year 1953-54, including authority to credit to the account the net revenue received into the agricultural products board account from the sale of New Zealand meat received in exchange for beef shipped to the United Kingdom, $37,758,894.

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A-Department-
Indian affairs branch-
Education-
554.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $120,000.
B-National Gallery of Canada-
555.	Payment to the national gallery purchase account for the purpose of acquiring works of art, in conformity with section 8 of the National Gallery Act-further amount required, $360,000.

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A-Department and missions abroad-
556.	To provide for official hospitality-further amount required, $4,000.
B-General-
Terminable services-
557.	Contribution to the United Nations relief and works agency for Palestine refugees in the Near East, $500,000.
558.	To provide for aid to Greece for reconstruction and rehabilitation following earthquakes In the Ionian islands, $500,000.
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Supply
559.	To provide for a gift of wheat as a contribution to famine relief for Pakistan, $5,000,000.
560.	To provide for a gift of food as a contribution to flood relief for Japan, $50,000.
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General administration-
561.	Departmental administration - further amount required, $5,800.
562.	Comptroller of the treasury-central office and branch offices administration-further amount required, $220,000.
Administration of various acts and costs of special functions-
563.	Superannuation and retirement acts, administration-further amount required, $132,404.
564.	To authorize and provide for adjustment payments in respect of subsidies previously paid and administrative expenses incurred by:	(a) Commodity Prices Stabilization Corporation Limited, and (b) the Minister of Finance on behalf of Her Majesty, pursuant to the agreement entered into between the said corporation and Her Majesty on the 25th day of June, 1953, under the authority of order in council P.C. 1953-868 dated the 1st day of June, 1953, $310,000.
Payments to municipalities-
565.	Grants to municipalities in lieu of taxes on federal property-to provide for payments to municipalities in accordance with the Municipal Grants Act, and the rural municipal grants regulations established by order in council of August 6, 1952, P.C. 3729; and to provide for payments to municipalities under order in council of July 19, 1950, P.C. 3456, in respect of the cost of medical and hospital services and supplies furnished to federal employees and other persons specified therein-further amount required including authority to regard the admiralty properties in the city of St. John's, Newfoundland, as federal property notwithstanding that formal transfer of administration has not been completed, $343,783.
Contingencies and miscellaneous-
566.	To authorize the write-off to the consolidated deficit account of costs incurred in 1951 in engraving blank bonds in anticipation of a loan which did not materialize, $11,200.
567.	To authorize the write-off from non-active
assets to the consolidated deficit account of the net trading loss in the securities	investment account incurred prior to April 1, 1952 ($40,072.79), $1.
General items of payroll costs including superannuation payments-
568.	Government contribution to the superannuation account in respect of additional liability consequent upon the salary increases effective December 1, 1953, $38,000,000.
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Special-
569.	Amount required to recoup the fisheries prices support account to cover net operating loss of the fisheries prices support board during the fiscal year 1952-53, $36,526.
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A-Department-
570. Combines Investigation	Act-Office	for
investigation and research-further amount required, $65,000.
General-
571.	Expenses of committee appointed to advise on principles and procedures relating to remission service, $1,000.
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A-Department-*
General administration-
572.	Labour Gazette, authorized by Labour Department Act-further amount required, $20,000. B-Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-
573. Administration-further	amount required, $571,625.
[Stage Direction]
The Senate-
574.	To provide, notwithstanding anything contained in the Senate and House of Commons Act, for the payment of indemnity relating to the first session of the twenty-second parliament, 1953-54, to members of the Senate for days lost through absence caused by public or official business, by illness, or on account of death. Payments to be made as the treasury board may direct, $10,000.
575.	To provide, notwithstanding anything contained in the Senate and House of Commons Act, for the payment to each member of the Senate who attended the first part of the first session of the twenty-second parliament which commenced on November 12, 1953, and ended on December 16, 1953, of an amount representing the actual transportation and living expenses of such member while on the journey between Ottawa and his place of residence after the Christmas adjournment of parliament on December 16, 1953, and on the return journey from his place of residence to Ottawa at the end of the recess which commenced on that date or at any other one time during that session, $5,500.
House of Commons-
576.	To provide, notwithstanding anything contained in the Senate and House of Commons Act, for the payment of indemnity relating to the seventh session of the twenty-first parliament and for the first session of the twenty-second parliament, 1953-54, to the members of the House of Commons for days lost through absence caused by public or official business, by illness, or on account of death. Payments to be made on the recommendation of the board of internal economy and as treasury board may direct. Each such payment to be deemed, for the purposes of the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, to be part of the sessional indemnity of the member for the session in respect of which he received it- further amount required, $10,000.
577.	To provide, notwithstanding anything contained in the Senate and House of Commons Act, for the payment to each member of the House of Commons, who attended the first part of the first session of the twenty-second parliament which commenced on November 12, 1953, and ended on December 16, 1953, of an amount representing the actual transportation and living expenses of such member while on the journey between Ottawa and his place of residence after the Christmas adjournment of parliament on December 16, 1953, and on the return journey from his place of residence to Ottawa at the end of the recess which commenced on that date or at any other one time during that session, $20,000.
578.	To authorize payment, during the present and subsequent fiscal years out of the unappropriated

monies in the consolidated revenue fund, to members of the House of Commons for the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories, in respect of actual transportation expenses incurred by each such member for one journey for dependent members of his family from his place of residence to the most convenient railway point, and return, for each session of parliament (commencing with the first session, twenty-second parliament) attended by him, the estimated amount required for 1953-54 being $1,000.
579.	General administration-estimates of the Clerk -further amount required, $213,500.
580.	Estimates of the Sergeant-at-Arms-further amount required, $6,000.
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A-Department-
Geological Survey of Canada-
Geological surveys-
581.	Construction or acquisition of new equipment -further amount required, $18,600.
B-Dominion coal board-
582.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council-further amount required, $2,370,700.
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Pensions and other benefits-
583.	To authorize in respect of members of the Royal Canadian Air Force on leave without pay and serving as instructors with civilian training organizations operating under the British commonwealth air training plan who were killed, payment to their dependents of amounts equal to the amounts such dependents would have received under the Pension Act. as amended, had such service as instructors been military service in the armed forces of Canada, less the value of any benefits received by such dependents under insurance contracts which were effected on the lives of such members of the Royal Canadian Air Force by or at the expense of the civilian organizations -further amount required, $2,640.
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Welfare branch-
584.	Grant to British Empire and Commonwealth Games Association of Canada to assist in defraying expenses of the Canadian team, $10,000.
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585.	Salaries and other expenses-further amount required including authority for additional expenditures from revenues derived from publications, laboratory fees, plant engineering, shop work and the conduct of its operations generally, $1.
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Atomic Energy of Canada Limited (research program) -
586.	Current operation and maintenance-further amount required, $265,000.
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Customs and excise divisions-
587.	Inspection, investigation and audit services -further amount required, $27,000.
Ports, outports and preventive stations-
588.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $303,000.
Supply
[Stage Direction]
(Formerly Resources and Development)
Northern administration and lands	branch-
Northern administration division-
Northwest territories, including Wood Buffalo park and Eskimo affairs-
589.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $2,500.
Yukon Territory, including forest conservation-
590.	To provide for a special grant to the government of the Yukon Territory to help defray the costs of the severe poliomyelitis outbreak in 1953, $43,282.
Forestry branch-
591.	Branch administration-further amount required, $7,000.
Forestry operations division-
592.	To provide for contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory and reforestation in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces-further amount required, $100,000.
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593.	Operations - further amount required,
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Federal district commission-
594.	To provide for maintenance and improvement of grounds adjoining government buildings at Ottawa-further amount required, $44,260.
[Stage Direction]
595.	Distribution of official documents-further amount required, $5,385.
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Architectural branch-
596.	Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc.-further amount required, $270,000.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-further amounts required-
597.	Quebec ($420, less the amount, of $419 available from savings in other listed projects detailed in previous estimates for 1953-54 for this province) , $1.
598.	Yukon and Northwest Territories, $100,000. Engineering branch-
Graving docks-
599.	Prince Rupert dry dock and shipyard and appurtenant works-additional amount in excess of the sum of $110,000 already authorized by vote 343 of the Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953, for the payment of operating losses and essential repairs, all such payments to be made in respect of operations during the calendar year 1953-further amount required, $103,324.
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Supply
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects-further amount required-
600.	Quebec ($17,000, less the amount of $16,999 available from savings in other listed projects detailed in previous estimates for 1953-54 for this province), $1.
General-
601.	To provide for the expenses incurred by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in constructing and supervising construction of married quarters, schools and related services on behalf of the Department of National Defence (formerly under Department of Resources and Development) -further amount required, $130,000.
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602.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $15,700.
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General administration-
603.	Commodities services, including contributions as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $21,127.
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A-Department-
604.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $161,000.
Canal services-
605.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $177,450.
606.	To provide for expenses in connection with the St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations (including St. Lawrence seaway investigations)-further amount required, $200,000.
Marine services-
Marine service steamers-
607.	Construction or acquisition of vessels and equipment, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $291,907.
Pilotage service-
608.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $12,848.
River St. Lawrence ship channel service-
609.	Contract dredging-further amount required, $1,899,989.
Railway and steamship services-
610.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals deficit, 1953-additional amount in excess of the sum of $1,459,000 already appropriated, to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 195354 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1953-further amount required, $143,855.
611.	North Sydney, Nova Scotia-Port-aux-Bas-ques, Newfoundland, car ferry and terminals deficit, 1953-additional amount in excess of the sum of $1,870,000 already appropriated to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1953-54 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport made by the national company to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in the payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the North Sydney, Nova Scotia-Port-aux-Basques, Newfoundland, ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1953-further amount required, $366,393.
612.	Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited, deficit, 1953-to provide for the payment to the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited (hereinafter called the company) of the amount of the deficit for the year ending December 31, 1953 in the operations of the company and the vessels under the control of the company, as certified by the auditors of the company to the Minister of Finance and approved by the Minister of Transport, $649,662.
613.	Maritime Freight Rates Act-additional amount in excess of the sum of $10,453,000 already appropriated for the payment to the railway companies operating in the select territory designated by the act, during the fiscal year 1953-54, of the difference occurring on account of the application of the act, between the tariff tolls and normal tolls under approved tariffs (estimated and certified to the Minister of Transport by the Canadian National Railway Company and approved by auditors of the said company respecting the eastern lines of the Canadian National Railways, and in the case of other railways by the board of transport commissioners for Canada) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1953 (chap. 174, R.S.)-further amount required, $199,002.
General-
614.	To provide for reimbursement of the Department of Transport stores account for the value of stores which have become obsolete, unserviceable, lost or destroyed, $12,275.
Air services-
Telecommunications division-
Radio Act and regulations-
615.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $50,000.
Civil aviation division-
616.	Control of civil aviation, including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder-further amount required, $46,000.
617.	Grants to organizations for the development of civil aviation, in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $30,000.
B-General-
Air transport board-
618.	Subventions for air carriers, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $80,000.
Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada-
619.	Administration, operation and maintenance -further amount required, $49,200.
Canadian maritime commission-
620.	Steamship subventions for coastal services, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $144,971.
[Stage Direction]
Treatment services-
621.	Operation of hospitals and administration- further amount required, $749,615.
War veterans allowance and other benefits-
622.	War veterans allowances-further amount required, $550,000.
623. Hospital and other	allowances-further amount required, $100,000.
Miscellaneous payments-
624.	Employers liability compensation-further amount required, $55,000.
625.	To authorize and provide for payment to Pearl Margaret Putnam, widow of the late Ross Hartwell Putnam, of the benefits to which she would have been entitled under the Veterans Insurance Act had his application for insurance thereunder been formally approved, by the superintendent of veterans insurance, before his death, $10,000.
626.	To authorize the write-off to the consolidated deficit account of the amount of $570,539.67, which was due in respect of pensions paid by the Department of Veterans Affairs to members of the R.C.A.F. who served in the R.A.F. in world war II, payment of which by the United Kingdom was waived in accordance with the provisions of P.C. 1953-522 of April 2, 1953, $1.
Canadian pension commission-
627. Administration expenses-further	amount required, $15,000.
628.	To provide for payment, in respect of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1954, of a monthly pension of $100 to Mrs. Annie Elizabeth Cronk, and to authorize the Canadian pension commission to pay thereafter to Annie Elizabeth Cronk an annual pension during her lifetime, in the same manner and subject to similar terms and conditions as if she were the widow of a soldier holding the rank of private who died while rendering military service in world war I, $1,200.
Terminable services-
629.	Post discharge rehabilitation benefits including the training of merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners-further amount required, $560,000.

[Stage Direction]
Loans, investments and advances-
630.	To provide, subject to regulations of the treasury board, for working capital advances in the current and subsequent fiscal years to posts and employees on posting abroad, and to authorize the creation of a special account in the consolidated revenue fund to which shall be credited expendi-
Supply
ture made by and advances recovered from the said posts and employees, the excess of the amounts charged over the amounts credited to the account at any time not to exceed $1,000,000. Vote 655 of the Appropriation Act No. 2, 1952, is hereby repealed. $1,000,000.
[Stage Direction]
Loans, investments and advances-
631.	To authorize and provide for an advance to the government of Nova Scotia in accordance with the terms of an agreement between the government of Canada and the government of Nova Scotia to be entered into with the approval of the governor in council (in place of the agreement authorized to be entered into by vote 765 of Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953) in an amount not exceeding seventy-five per cent of the loans made by the government of Nova Scotia to fishermen for the purpose of replacing abnormal losses of equipment suffered by reason of severe weather conditions in the 1951-52 fishing season; the amount to be advanced not to exceed $106,500 of which $80,000 has already been provided under vote 765 of Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953, $26,500.
[Stage Direction]
Loans, investments and advances-
Customs and excise divisions-
632.	To authorize and provide for the operation of a revolving fund in accordance with section 58 of the Financial Administration Act for the purpose of acquiring and managing material to be used in the manufacture of uniforms, the amount to be charged to the revolving fund at any time not to exceed, $90,000.
[Stage Direction]
Loans, investments and advances-
633.	To authorize and provide for the operation of a revolving fund in accordance with section 58 of the Financial Administration Act for the purpose of acquiring and managing material to be used in the manufacture of uniforms, the amount to be charged to the revolving fund at any time not to exceed $450,000 of which $250,000 was provided under vote 547, Appropriation Act No. 3, 1953- further amount required, $200,000.
[Stage Direction]
Loans, investments and advances-
Soldier Settlement and Veterans' Land Act-
634.	To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; refunds to veterans (sections 11 and 21); and for protection of security under the Veterans' Land Act-further amount required, $500,000.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, March 30, 1954