1953-12-08

Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce that, following consultation with the civil service commission, the departments mainly concerned and the national joint council, the government has decided that the policy of readjusting the working week of operating staffs in the post office, customs and various other operating branches of the public service to the five-day forty-hour week where that is the prevailing practice in the locality, which had been approved and announced in September, will be put into effect April 1 next.
Working arrangements will have to be extensively revised and additional employees recruited and trained before the change can be put into effect, but it is believed that this can be accomplished by the end of March with the co-operation of all concerned in assisting to meet the objective.
The civil service commission has been asked to make recommendations to the government for the extension of this new work week to operating staffs in those localities and those classes of employment where the five-day forty-hour week is the established pattern in business and industry.
This change in working hours will make it necessary to add substantially to the staff of the post office. These additions, following the improvements authorized by parliament for rural mail carriers and the salary increases which went into effect on December 1, will materially increase the cost of operating the postal service.
Like all other public utilities with fixed rates, the post office has already been facing difficulty in the past year or two in meeting steadily rising costs, including increased railway and other transport rates and increased remuneration for its employees.
It is anticipated that there will be a deficit on operating account in the present fiscal year and it will certainly not be possible without some increase in revenue to keep the
operations of the post office on a self-sustaining basis in the new fiscal year when the five-day week adds further to operating costs.
It is the view of the government that the people of Canada expect the post office to pay for its operations out of postal revenues and not out of taxes.
The government has accordingly decided to recommend the following adjustments in first-class postage rates effective April 1, 1954:
1.	A general increase of one cent per ounce over existing rates.
2.	The application of the so-called drop letter rate to rural routes as is now done in city and town deliveries.
3.	The reduction of the domestic air mail rate from 7 to 5 cents, with rates outside Canada unchanged.
While the government naturally regrets the necessity for any increase in postage rates, the proposed increase is much more modest than almost all other increases in prices, wage rates or service and transport charges which have been made in the past seven or eight years.
When the new rates come into effect all first-class mail will be carried by air if air carriage will speed up delivery. Canada already has the most advanced air mail service of any country in the world and this service will be further improved.
The government believes the Canadian people want good postal service and the Postmaster General is accordingly giving notice today of the proposed resolution to the effect that it is expedient to introduce a bill to make the necessary amendments to the Post Office Act.


Hon. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, this announcement is the first, I am sure, that most hon. members of the house have heard of this decision. I think that certain observations should be made immediately with regard to a statement such as that which has been presented to the house. With respect to most aspects of government activity where the government enters into the field of business operations, I should think there would be little doubt in the mind of any hon. member that, to whatever extent is possible, such operations should be put on a sound businesslike basis. There are, however, certain considerations

Increase in Postage Rates in connection with mail transportation which it seems to me might well have been given some consideration, even if only by the presentation of a substantive motion in the house, before another advance of this kind was made, and particularly at a time when there is such general complaint about the reduction of postal services and deliveries throughout the country.
Throughout the years the speeding up of business communication, the speeding up of personal communication, the speeding up of human contacts, whether it be by mail, telephone, telegraph or any other means of communication, has in itself been an essential part of the material advancement of society. There are few aspects of our social and business contacts which mean more to our people than the efficient delivery of mail at a cost which is consistent in every way with the general public interest. I would have hoped that before a decision of this kind was made, which creates still further differentials between our own postal costs and those of our neighbours in the United States, we might have had some consideration of the possibility of dealing with this problem in another manner.
One of the interesting things that emerge from the statement now presented by the minister is that the minister obviously does not think that the same principle should apply to the postal service as applies to other public services. Without in any way at the moment arguing the merit or demerit of a proposition that the postal service should carry its cost by the stamps purchased, it is interesting to note that no such argument is made as to radio or with respect to certain other public services which the people of the country want and expect to receive. I grant immediately that in the case of radio there are cultural considerations and also special problems connected with it. I am not sure that there may not also be special considerations that should be borne in mind in connection with the postal services as well.
I think there are in this country many people who have advocated over and over again measures of economy which this government has not been prepared to consider or introduce, and who are not convinced that the first consideration in connection with mail delivery in this country must be that, of necessity, the cost of the stamps pay the full cost. I think the first consideration is the efficiency of the service; the opportunity of those who are serving in the mail service itself to be able to perform their task well; and, on top of that, that in this country of ours there be due consideration to the fact that with mail, as with other services, there


are great areas of the country in which special costs are incurred unless there is to be a disadvantage by virtue alone of living in that area.
Those are all things that present certain special considerations. I simply rise at this moment, Mr. Speaker, without previous knowledge of the fact that this statement was going to be presented, to suggest that this is something that might well be given further consideration. I suggest there ought to be an examination of the whole organization and set-up of the postal service by a committee of this house, so that the hours of work and other details of that kind within the postal service could be examined. We should find out whether those working in the postal service are, in fact, receiving the consideration they should receive for this very valuable service.
There is a question raised by many as to whether the employees are not working excessive hours and under excessive conditions, having regard to the special terms of their employment. I am not making any positive statement in regard to these things, but I do say there are few subjects on which there has been more comment in recent months than the postal service. I would have hoped that before a blanket decision of this kind had been made there would have been an opportunity to examine the postal service, always bearing in mind that the efficiency of that service depends upon the feeling of confidence on the part of postal employees themselves that their services are being fully appreciated and employed to the best advantage.


Mr. Knowles:: Mr. Speaker,-


Mr. Speaker:: I take it that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) will be speaking on behalf of his group.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, only I was not claiming the right to make any statement. The rules do not permit me to do that, but I should like to ask the minister two questions that arise out of his statement. My first question is this. Is it clearly understood that the question of increasing the postage rates will be brought before parliament, and that if parliament does not approve the increases they will not be put into effect?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think I made that clear in my statement. The postal rates can only be increased by amendment to the Post Office Act. A bill to amend the Post Office Act will be in Votes and Proceedings today.


Stanley Howard Knowles: My second question is this. Can the minister make available in some

appropriate manner a list of the localities in which the five-day week will be put fully into effect?


Douglas Charles Abbott: If the hon. member noticed, in my statement I said that the civil service commission has been asked to make recommendations to the government for the extension of this new work week to operating staffs in those localities and those classes of employment where the five-day forty-hour week is the established pattern in business and industry. I think it will be possible very shortly, when we have the recommendations of the civil service commission, to make a public statement along the lines of the one for which the hon. member has asked.


Mr. W. G. Weir (Porlage-Neepawa):: May
I ask the minister-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It is the practice
when a minister makes a statement, a gentleman's agreement is entered into whereby one spokesman for each opposition party may comment on the statement. If the hon. member wishes merely to ask a question, I shall allow it even though that is not quite in order.


William Gilbert Weir: I wish to ask if consideration
has been given to reducing the hours of employment of those on the penitentiaries staffs?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I cannot answer that question offhand, except that I do know it is not the intention at the moment to introduce the forty-hour week into the staffs of the penitentiaries or the D.V.A. hospitals.


Mr. J. W. Noseworthy (York South):: I
should like to direct one question to the minister. Upon what information does the minister base his statement that the people of Canada expect the post office to pay its way?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Well, past performance, Mr. Speaker. I think it has been the generally accepted view that a public utility such as the post office should pay for its services by charges imposed on the people who use the post office and not out of collections from sales tax, the income tax or the tax structure generally. I believe that has been the accepted practice in the past, and I have made the natural assumption that that is what the Canadian people wish done in the future.



EMERGENCY GOLD MINING ASSISTANCE ACT


Hon. George Prudham (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys) moved: that the house
Inquiries of the Ministry go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to extend the application of the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act to the year 1954.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. M. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: I
should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. How far does the minister consider that the anti-dumping instructions given to customs officials yesterday can be effectively applied to industries other than the textile industry, which he mentioned, and also to other production including agricultural production?


Hon. J. J. McCann (Minisier of National Revenue):: The hon. member was kind
enough to give me notice of his question, Mr. Speaker. I mentioned the textile industry specifically in my statement yesterday because, in recent weeks, we had been hearing more about the difficulties which this particular industry has been facing. It will be noted on reference to the bill that no specific mention is made of any particular commodity, and any industry which finds itself suffering unfair competition in the same form as the textile industry would be in a position to receive the same relief from unfair competition.
It is too early as yet to assess the effect of this legislation, because our customs officers received the appropriate instructions only this morning.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: May
I ask a supplementary question? What steps will the government take to investigate an industry to see if there is actual injury to that industry from competition abroad?


James Joseph McCann: The answer to that question is that we have special investigators who are trained in particular lines of industry, and who make these investigations in the country of export.


George Alexander Drew: May I direct a supplementary question related to the minister's remark about the customs officials not having had the opportunity of exploring the effect of this measure. The question I wish to ask is, has

Inquiries of the Ministry the minister not given full consideration to the effect of this bill in regard to its impact upon industry and other production?


James Joseph McCann: Yes; we have given special consideration to that, but at this time it is impossible to make an appraisal of what the effect of these new regulations will be. I suggest that can only be done when we have heard from our officials throughout the country as to what the quantities of imports are in particular commodities.



RADIO BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Joseph William Noseworthy: Will the Minister of National Revenue comment on the press report to the effect that a Texas advertising agency requested radio station CFOR at Orillia to get off the air? I may say that I sent the minister a copy of the newspaper clipping.


James Joseph McCann: I did not receive the copy of the clipping, and at this time I am not prepared to make any comment on a press report.



TOTEM POLES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):: Mr. Speaker, has the government been informed that souvenir totem poles, not stamped as to the country of origin, are being imported, and that this condition is causing a hardship to our native Indians? If so, what measures of control are contemplated?


James Joseph McCann: Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge receipt of the hon. member's question. The answer is that under the present law souvenir totem poles are not required to be marked as to their country of origin. However, we received this morning a letter from a retailer in British Columbia, copy of which I have no doubt the hon. member has received, and that is being given consideration.



SUPERANNUATED CIVIL SERVANTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question of the Minister of Finance. Have further representations been received asking for an

increase in the pensions of retired or superannuated civil servants, particularly those in the lower brackets? Will the minister reconsider his position on this urgent matter?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I know the interest that my hon. friend has in this question and I shall be happy, of course, to reconsider it. I would be less than frank, however, if I held out any little hope that the considerations which prompted the government to decide that the request could not be granted do not still obtain.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A supplementary question: Is the minister aware of the fact that since he last considered the matter legislation along these lines has been passed in the United States?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, I was not aware of that. But they pass a lot of legislation down there that I am not aware of.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I will send it to the minister.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Would he care to make any comment respecting the accuracy of a press report to the effect that differences of opinion have developed between Canadian representatives on the one hand and American representatives on the other on the international joint commission with respect to the St. Lawrence waterway?


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of Slate for External Affairs):: No; I am not aware of any such differences of opinion, and therefore I am unable to comment upon them. However, I shall look into the matter and see if any light can be thrown on my hon. friend's question.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Harold E. Winch (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), but in his absence I shall direct it to his parliamentary assistant. Is the department aware of recent press reports from Vancouver to the effect that large amounts of veal

which federal government inspectors would condemn as unfit for human consumption are being eaten daily in Vancouver? And is he familiar with the expressed views of Dr. Stewart Murray, city health officer, in favour of a plan between the provincial and federal governments with respect to the inspection of meat? Can we have comment on this matter?


Mr. Robert McCubbin (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Agriculture):: With respect to the question asked by the hon. member for Vancouver East, our department has never heard of any veal being sold that has been federally inspected and condemned. Our authority covers only five packing houses in Vancouver, and we have no authority over all the meat that is being sold out of the butcher shops in that city. That comes under the city or provincial health authorities. But if they wish to have all meat federally inspected, our department would co-operate with them.



UNITED NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, will the Canadian delegation to the FAO conference in Rome propose any plan for the alleviation of our agricultural surpluses as a result of the reported statement in this morning's press by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) that there is no FAO plan to assist us or other nations with surpluses?


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: The hon. member's question is a little bit difficult to answer, if one is to be sure that one is answering what was intended by the writer of the question. I do not know what is meant by the "alleviation of our agricultural surpluses." I hope it does not mean any wish or any attempt to put us in a position where we would not have as large a production of agricultural supplies as we have had in the last three years. But if the hon. member's question is directed to ascertain whether or not our delegation is putting up any proposal to FAO to provide any kind of international fund to purchase agricultural surpluses, the answer is no.
Inquiries of the Ministry INCOME TAX



EXEMPTION IN RESPECT OF SHIPPING AND CRATING CHARGES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Revenue. I should like to know if the people who went to the expense of producing this item I have on my desk, crating it and expressing it to every member of parliament-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: A book on wine. I should like to know if the costs connected with this expensive crating and the express charges to all members of parliament will be allowed as a deductible expense in relation to income tax. If such application is made, will the minister see that it is disallowed.


Some hon. Members:: Order.



ELECTION MATERIAL


Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Secreiary of Stale) moved: the third reading of Bill No. 5, respecting use of election material for byelections and Northwest Territories elections.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



PIPE LINES ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon.	Lionel	Chevrier	(Minister	of
Transport) moved the third reading of Bill No. 10, to amend the Pipe Lines Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon.	Lionel	Chevrier	(Minister	of
Transport) moved the third reading of Bill No. 9, respecting the appointment of auditors for national railways.
Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Stanley Howard Knowles: On division.
Motion agreed to on division and bill read the third time and passed.
696	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Northern Affairs and National Resources



NORTHERN AFFAIRS AND NATIONAL RESOURCES


[Stage Direction]
Righl Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of Bill No. 6, respecting the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I think hon. members will realize that this bill now before the house is an important one, not so much because of what it contains or does, in precise terms, but because of what its passage will signify. The effect of the bill will not be to establish a new department of government, nor to extend the scope of government in any way, nor even to add new functions to those discharged by the department affected by the bill. The effect of the bill will be rather to give a new emphasis and scope to work already being done, and to indicate that the government and parliament wish to see such greater emphasis made a continuing feature of the operation of government.
One subject to which such increased emphasis will be given by passage of this bill is the administration and development of our northern territories. Perhaps I might say a brief word as background about the administration of those northern territories.
Hon. members will know that in 1870 the United Kingdom transferred to Canada Rupert's Land and the Northwest Territories. Rupert's Land at that time included the whole of the watershed of Hudson bay and Hudson strait, and had been under the administration of the Hudson's Bay Company since it obtained its original charter in 1670 [DOT]-that is, something over 200 years ago.
The Northwest Territories-or the Northwest Territory, because it was all one territory-comprised the vast region between Rupert's Land on the east and British Columbia and Alaska on the west. When these lands were transferred to Canada the department of the interior was set up to handle their administration, and in the same year, 1870, the province of Manitoba was carved out of the new lands added to the extent of Canada. The administration of the remainder continued under the department of the interior, though the active administration in the territory was in the hands of a lieutenant governor and an appointed council.
I do not want to go into the history of this form of government, but I might mention a few of the highlights of that period. In 1888 there was a first session of a partly elected legislative assembly for the territory. In 1897 responsible government was seriously fMr. Knowles.]
considered for the territories, but subject to the overriding control of the department of the interior and of the governor general in council.
In 1898 the Yukon Territory was separated from the Northwest Territories, and a separate organization was set up for the administration of its local affairs. That was probably the result of the growth of population in the Klondike at that time, as a consequence of the gold rush.
In 1905 the two provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta were created by acts of this parliament. Then, in 1912, the northern boundaries of Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba were extended to their present limits, and that took in a large part of the former Northwest Territories. Thus, by 1912 the northern territories of Canada had assumed their present limits and comprised practically all the lands north of the sixtieth degree north latitude, except a small portion of Quebec, which extends into the Ungava district beyond the sixtieth parallel and a small portion of the Newfoundland territory as well. The territories had, as they have today, administrations of their own different from that of the Yukon Territory; but the control of the administration continued to be in the department of the interior.
In 1936, as part of an economy measure, four departments of government were merged to form the department of mines and resources, and one of those four was the department of the interior, and the administration of the north country became one of the many duties of the department of mines and resources. Hon. members know that that department had the administration of mines, of immigration, of mapping and surveys, of Indian affairs, of national parks, of forest resources and so forth, and it was not possible that very much of the attention of the department could be given specifically to northern affairs.
After 1945 it became clear that the department of mines and resources had activities too varied and too numerous, and there was a need for rearrangement of functions. That department was replaced by three new departments. Immigration and Indian affairs, plus citizenship, which up to that time had been the responsibility of the Secretary of State, became the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. The duties in respect of mines, mapping, and surveys were grouped under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. The other functions of the former department of mines and resources made the third department of Resources and Development. Thus in 1950 the administration of the
[Stage Direction]
northern territories passed to the Department of Resources and Development. But that department had many other duties as well. It was in charge of the forest resources that belonged to the national government, irrigation and water power development, national parks, wildlife generally, historic sites and monuments, the national museum, the tourist services, trans-Canada highway and so forth, and the minister was also the minister to whom the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the film board reported, and through whom their reports were communicated to parliament.
It has seemed to us that with that set-up it was obvious that northern affairs could get only a part, and perhaps a rather small part, of the attention of the minister and of the department, and it was also apparent that throughout the whole history of the administration of our territories there had never been a department clearly charged with their administration as its first and primary duty.
Now, it seemed to us that it was becoming increasingly apparent that it would be desirable to alter the situation and to create conditions in which it is clearly indicated that the government and parliament want further attention given to the development of our north country, and I may say that that was further impressed upon us by the fact that there have to be quite a number of non-Canadians going into that territory. We felt that it was very important to have the situation such that whenever they went there they realized they were in Canadian territory and in territory that was administered by Canadian authorities.
The present bill is designed to give more emphasis to the fact that the people of Canada are greatly interested in this northern territory and regard it as an important part of the territory subject to the sovereignty of the Canadian nation. The purpose of this bill is to further that objective. The first step was taken in September 1953, when certain duties of the Minister of Resources and Development were transferred to other ministers. Housing, trans-Canada highway, planning of special projects were all transferred to the Minister of Public Works. The national film board was transferred to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Thus the minister and the Department of Resources and Development were relieved of some of the duties that do not relate to our north country; but it has seemed to us that the other remaining duties could well be corollaries of the principal duty emphasized by the act of administering the interest of the Canadian people in our northern territory.
Northern Affairs and National Resources
The government is now recommending to the house a redefinition of the duties of the department and a shift of emphasis and a new name. We think that the new name is rather important; it is indicative of the fact that the centre of gravity of the department is being moved north. That is the purpose of this measure. The Department of Resources and Development will become the department of northern affairs and national resources. It is quite proper that they should be together because the national resources subject to the jurisdiction of parliament and vested in Her Majesty in the right of Canada are the resources that are situated in the northern territories. All those that are in the older provinces, the original provinces, were vested in the Queen in the right of the provincial governments at confederation. When British Columbia, Manitoba, Prince Edward Island- in the case of Prince Edward Island there was no difficulty-and when the prairie provinces were established, the natural resources were retained. Hon. members will remember that that was a bone of contention for a long time between the federal authorities and the provincial authorities. They have now been surrendered to the provincial authorities and are vested in Her Majesty in the right of the respective provinces. The natural resources of Canada are now the natural resources in the territories that are outside those of provincial administration.
This will be .the first time that this designation "northern affairs" will have appeared in the name of a department of the government of Canada. I hope it will be felt, as we felt, that it is desirable that this be done as one of the indications of the growing interest in the importance of these northern territories. The functions of the department will remain essentially the same as those of the department of resources, except that hereafter responsibilities in relation to the north will be more fully and clearly spelled out. The minister will have the specific duty to co-ordinate the activities of all government departments in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. It will also be his responsibility to promote measures for further economic and political development in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon and to develop knowledge of the problems in .the north and the means of dealing with them through scientific investigations and technological research. *
I think it is rather fortunate to have the occasion presented by this bill, one that is perhaps too rare, to do something in the nature of national stocktaking. Occasions do not occur very frequently. We are usually too deeply involved in the urgent day to
698	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources day problems to take time off to do that, but it would seem that occasionally it is desirable to step back and to see where we are and how we are getting on and where we are going.
There have been some of these occasions during the time I have been in the house. There was such an occasion when the house debated the Canadian Citizenship Act in 1946; when it debated the United Nations agreements also in 1946; and when we had the interesting debate over the union of Newfoundland with Canada in 1949. There have been other cases; and then at every session we have general debates on trade, agriculture, broadcasting and shipping.
But there has not been for a long time any special occasion offered to discuss these vast areas of Canada which compose the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory. It has been said that Great Britain acquired her empire in a state of absence of mind. Apparently we have administered these vast territories of the north in an almost continuing state of absence of mind.
I think all hon. members now feel that the territories are vastly important to Canada and that it is time that more attention was focused upon their possibilities and what they will mean to this Canadian nation. We in the southern part of Canada have been so busy in recent years that we have given little close attention to the north country. In the thirties we were concerned with economic problems; then during the war years there was little that we could devote ourselves to but to the tasks of war. Since the war the growth and development in every province and the problems of the cold war have absorbed practically the whole of our attention.
The extent to which some of us are unaware of the north was brought home to me personally a few weeks ago. We were receiving a delegation which had set up in the room in which they were being received a large map of North America. I was looking at the map and it struck me that Alaska looked to be larger than Ontario. I said, "I am not saying that this map is not accurate but it must be drawn in such a way as to throw the northern portion out of perspective with the rest". However, on checking it I found to my surprise that in fact Alaska is larger in area than the whole of Ontario even with its augmented boundaries. It is just a trifle smaller than Quebec, which reaches almost up to the north pole with its extended boundaries.
There may be others who have the same concept that I had that these northern areas,
[Stage Direction]

although very vast, are not of the extent which on checking one finds them to be. The Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory together have an area of 1,511,979 square miles. The total area of Canada, including the territories, is 3,847,774 square miles. The Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory constitute 39-3 per cent of the total.
The area of the Yukon Territory is 207,076 square miles, nearly as large as any one of the three prairie provinces. Taking the three districts of the Northwest Territories, Mackenzie district, the most westward, has an area of 527,490 square miles; Keewatin, which is west of Hudson bay, has an area of 228,160 square miles; and Franklin, or the islands of the Arctic, has an area of about 550,000 square miles. Mackenzie and Franklin are each larger than any province in Canada except Quebec with the northern extension which it got in 1912.
Of course the population of the territories is still small in relation to their area, but it is growing percentagewise quite rapidly. It is a healthy growth based upon proven resources that are being used and are providing a livelihood for the population. In 1941 the population of the Yukon was just about 5,000; in 1951 it was around 9,000. In 1941 the population of Whitehorse was 754; according to the 1951 census it had a population of 2,594.
The growth in the Northwest Territories themselves is also quite striking. The population in 1941 was 12,000; in 1951 it was 16,000. The population other than Indian and Eskimo in 1941 was 2,290; in 1951 it was 5,344. The growth and development of the territories is perhaps somewhat reminiscent of what took place in the Canadian west at the end of the last century. They have not yet reached the stage of full bloom which occurred when the west filled up in the early years of the century, but they have reached a stage where it is clear that the north, just as certainly as had the west fifty years ago, has a great future for the benefit of the Canadian nation.
Of course, it will not be the same kind of a future that brought about the rapid development of the prairie provinces where the principal resource that could be exploited was agriculture.
In the north the basic industry for growth and development is mining, and important discoveries have already taken place; and in the Yukon gold is still a commodity of importance. In 1952 the amount of gold produced, according to the bureau of statistics, was of the value of $2,700,000, and silver and base metals were also produced in increasing volume and value. In 1952 the

value of silver mined in the Yukon was $3,300,000; lead, $2,950,000; zinc, $1,900,000. In the Northwest Territories the value of gold grew from $1,800,000 in 1939 to $8,-
400,000	in 1952.
We all know that discoveries of uranium are of the greatest importance economically, and also have political significance. Petroleum and silver have been found in encouraging amounts at various points, and I think that the developments so far are an indication of what we might expect in the future in regard to these northern areas.
I am not a geologist, but I am told that the largest part of the Northwest Territories is made up of ancient rock of the preCambrian shield, and all of the eastern and central mainland and much of Baffin island as well, while the western edge of the Northwest Territories and all of the Yukon lie across the Cordilleras. The Pre-Cambrian shield and the Cordilleras are, I am told, the two great metal-bearing regions of North America. The Mackenzie basin is an extension of the central plains and it is well known that oil discoveries have been made in that region, and it is coming to be regarded by many, who I hope are not overenthusiastic, as the great oil-bearing region of North America.
Up to the present, development has been held up by the remoteness of the area, the problem of transportation, the rigorous nature of the climate, and the toughness of the terrain; but from what I know of the geology of the territories, and what has been learned by experts, the resources there are sufficient to give confidence that the present output will be quite dwarfed by the developments of the future. We know that at the present time in parts of Canada, some of which are perhaps less remote and less difficult of access, great new wealth is being discovered.
I had the advantage at the end of last summer of visiting Knob Lake in Labrador, and the Ungava district, 360 or 370 miles north of Seven Islands, and I felt I was pretty far north. But the territories beyond that are greater than what is between that place and the latitude of Seven Islands. I was astounded at the work that is being done there to take out ten million tons of iron ore a year. That means ten million tons in six months because the season does not last beyond that period. Of course that development would have been quite impossible without the use of air transportation. Machines had to be brought in in order to do anything at all and a railway of 370 miles was being completed from Seven Islands to the mineral deposits. There are other interesting deposits in that
Northern Affairs and National Resources same region, and there is abundant water power. Natural conditions in the territories are such as to make anyone who is at all optimistic feel that there is a great future for this Canada of ours because of the tremendous extent of its territory and the natural resources with which it has been so generously endowed.
I am told that over $2 million worth of fish annually is being taken out of Great Slave lake at the present time. This fish was trucked to the railhead and shipped to Chicago. The hydroelectric possibilities of the region are immense. By the construction of dams at appropriate places, some of them reversing the flow of certain rivers and lakes draining into the Yukon river, and by taking advantage of the large drop of the level of that country to the Pacific, power can be developed in enormous quantities. It was suggested to me that there was more than 4 i million horsepower that could be developed in that way. Hon. members will remember that some time ago there was a suggestion that these waters, or much of them, could be diverted for development into Alaska. Well, they are Canadian waters and while we do not want to adopt any dog in the manger attitude about our resources which cannot be used in our own country, I think that those which can be used in our country must be reserved for the generations that will follow us and who will develop this country. I was happy that the minister's declaration in that regard was applauded in the house on December 17, 1952, and I am glad to see that my reference to it today meets with the unanimous approval of the representatives of all the Canadian people. We do not want to be isolationists but we do feel we have a trust to future generations for the resources with which Providence has endowed this vast land over which now our people exercise sovereignty.
There is another aspect which makes it necessary for us to give more attention to these northern territories and that is the fact that the Canadian northland lies between the two greatest powers in the world at the present time, namely, the United States of America and the U.S.S.R., and our own security is probably made more difficult to provide for by the fact that this northland of ours is between these two great world powers. There will, no doubt, have to be joint measures taken for the security of the North American continent. It is a continental problem that presents itself for solution by that mere fact of geography. I am not going to say any more about it than was said by the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton), but all these joint undertakings are
700	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources carried out under the principle which the President enunciated from the head of the table here only three or four weeks ago. They are implemented with full respect for the sovereignty of the country in which they are carried out.
We must leave no doubt about our active occupation and exercise of our sovereignty in these northern lands right up to the pole. That is something which puts these lands in a somewhat different position from other parts of Canada. From other parts of Canada we get representations from the localities about the things that are required for their development. Here I think there must be someone having ministerial responsibility to take initiatives so we will not have to wait until there are representations from the so sparse population in the area as to what is required. It was for these reasons that it was held it would be desirable to have on the statute books a department of northern affairs and to have representatives of the department of northern affairs present in various parts of these territories and symbolic of the actuality of the exercise of Canadian sovereignty over them.
There is another aspect, too. I have been quite impressed by what I have read and seen in films about the Eskimos. They seem to be a very sympathetic group of people. I understand there is a young Eskimo attending university in Calgary now who is taking technical and engineering training and showing that he is an outstanding pupil. I think this department will have to give close attention to what can be done to integrate the native Eskimo population into the development, and probably the administration also, of parts of these northern areas.
Having a demonstration of what they can do, it is probably a responsibility that the Canadian people would want to have their government discharge to provide them with opportunities for developing their talents and making themselves real citizens of the Canadian nation. It is for all these reasons that it has been felt that it would be desirable to have an energetic young minister be conscious that his principal responsibility will be to devote his attention to the northern affairs of this nation in that area which is 40 per cent of the area of the whole of Canada.
Mr. Rodney Adamson (York West):: Mr. Speaker, I was particularly interested in listening to the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) to hear him reiterate what I think are the two salient points of government policy. The first is that water power and the development thereof in Canada shall remain


for the benefit of Canada. The second point is that the present administration, although in my opinion somewhat belatedly, is looking to the north.
This is an omnibus bill. It is a somewhat smaller omnibus than it was before, and as such I welcome it. But it shows what happens in a government when it gets into so many activities. I suppose that this is a bit difficult to avoid, but it seems that such matters as the tourist trade and the national museum are slightly out of place in a department of northern development, although in part they do depend on the north. The tourist trade depends on the north to attract tourists to Canada, although not the north as we are referring to it in this instance, and no doubt the geological section of the national museum has many specimens from the north. However, I point out that neither the tourist trade nor the national museum is really a part of northern affairs.
As I have said, this bill is a simplification and as such I welcome it. Dealing with the first point in the bill, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory, as the Prime Minister pointed out, these regions consist of the Cordilleras, which are of course the Rocky mountains, the Pre-Cambrian shield and the area of the great plains. All of these areas are host to minerals. They are probably the greatest host to minerals to be found anywhere in the world today. The development of those minerals is a challenge which this and succeeding generations of Canadians will have to meet if our nation is to prosper and remain a sovereign state even in the way it has up to now. I say that with the utmost seriousness because I do not know whether hon. members are aware of what has happened in the rest of the world, and more particularly in the United States, with regard to the exhaustion of natural resources.
It may astound some hon. members when I say that as far as metals are concerned the United States is at present self-sufficient only in magnesium and molybdenum, and as magnesium is obtainable from sea water through a certain process it is a mineral in which any country can be self-sufficient. So we see that the United States, the great leader of western civilization, the nation whose prosperity has been built on the resources of iron, coal and petroleum, is today in a deficient position. I have here a pamphlet containing an address by a very eminent Canadian, one to whom every Canadian should be deeply indebted. I refer to Dr. George Sherwood Hume, O.B.E. He addressed the geological association of Canada at its sixth annual meeting; and while I will not go into these

matters in detail I do want to point out the have-not position of the United States at the present time with respect to so many minerals, and the challenge that presents to us in Canada. I shall quote this one short paragraph:
In former times much of the requirements of the United States was produced within the borders of that country which, with less than 10 per cent of the free world's population and 8 per cent of its land area, consumes close to half the free world's volume of materials. But far from being wholly self-sustaining, the United States is now the world's largest importer of copper, lead and zinc. The United States also imports considerable amounts of petroleum and iron ore, as well as most other minerals.
Dr. Hume then refers to the now famous Paley report in these words:
It is pointed out in the Paley report that the countries with undeveloped resources do not look with favour on the total exportation of raw materials to be processed by the importing countries. That sentiment certainly exists to some extent, and rightly so, in Canada and the Paley report clearly recognizes the fact that in the United States, as a seller, the emphasis shifted from raw materials to manufactured goods, and as a buyer from finished goods to raw materials. Thus a certain amount of processing of raw materials in the country of origin is not an unreasonable position for the exporting country to assume.
Now, in the language of one of our best known geologists, that means we have to be prepared to do more of the processing and developing of our natural resources in Canada. I do not want to hark back to the days of 1911 when an election was won on the slogan that Canadians were going to be hewers of wood and drawers of water for the United States. Dr. Hume says virtually the same thing, in reverse. This means, Mr. Speaker, that the great mineral resources in the Yukon and Northwest Territories must be processed at least in part in Canada.
The processing of these materials requires one thing predominantly, and that is primary power. I am pleased to hear the government reiterate the fact that it is basic Canadian policy, and speaking as a Conservative I assure you that it is basic Conservative policy, that we will not export primary power which we need in Canada. I hope to show this house that we do need every kilowatt hour of power that we can possibly produce.
I should like to compare two recent major developments. The first is the Alcan project in British Columbia, and I am using it as an example to show what is possible on another project in the Yukon. In connection with the Alcan project it is estimated that by diverting a river through a tunnel which goes through the coast range, and dropping to tide water, a million and a half horsepower can be generated. This power will produce 80,000 metric tons of aluminum per
Northern Affairs and National Resources annum, will result in the establishment of Kitimat, a town of some 35,000 people within less than a decade, and require a capital expenditure of about $500 million, all of which is being raised by private enterprise. Now, that is a stupendous undertaking.
A little farther north, at Tulsequah, by diverting the Yukon river by a somewhat similar engineering feat, through tunnels down to sea level at Taku inlet, approximately 5-5 million horsepower can be developed. That is potential energy greater than exists on the entire St. Lawrence seaway and Niagara river together. The industrial heart of Canada, the cities of Toronto and Montreal, all the industries which we know in that section, were built upon the primary power in the Niagara and St. Lawrence areas. These industries came into being because of the abundance of cheap electric power. Canada has not been a fuel-rich country, except in the last few years owing to the discovery of oil and gas. Each of these two developments approximately equals the primary power which built industrial Canada.
In this same area we have a potential in minerals, the extent of which is only vaguely understood despite years of prospecting and all the modern tools which have been produced to aid prospecting. With this and the power we have in this area, at least in part, the answer to the have-not position of the United States. This is a challenge which we cannot afford to let pass. It must be met, otherwise our economy will remain a small adjunct of the United States economy. I mention that, Mr. Speaker, to show how important I consider this development really is. Over the next quarter century it could, in the main, be the answer to our international balance of payments.
We now know metals do exist at places like Arch Creek near Kluane lake where new deposits of nickel and copper have recently been discovered which also contain precious metals. The St. Elias range in the Selwyn mountains is known to contain iron in considerable quantities. The recent discoveries this summer of lead and zinc are also important, but we have merely scratched the surface of the area which will be served by this vast hydroelectric source of energy.
So much for the primary development. Now let us look at the reason why North America has been prosperous. We have been able to pay our workers high wages. We have been able to live in what people who are not on the North American continent consider to be a state of absolute luxury. We have our motor cars, houses, ample food, cheap clothes and

Northern Affairs and National Resources hundred of thousands of miles of good roads, all those things which the non-North American considers great luxuries.
What is the reason for this? The reason is that we have been able to provide our workers and ourselves with power and tools. I would show here the way in which electrical energy at the hands of industrial workers has increased since 1929. In that year the worker in the industrial part of North America used 2.61 kilowatts of energy per man-hour. This had increased in 1939 to 4.60, in 1940 to 5.71 and in 1950 to 6.29. It is estimated that at the present time the figure has reached almost 8 kilowatts per man-hour.
That is a staggering increase in the use of energy; but it, together with the machine it drives, more than anything else stand as the reason we have been able to maintain our prosperity in the face of low wages, cheap materials and all other threats from abroad. We and the Americans have been able to export throughout the world simply because we have had this abundant source of electrical energy. This we must not jeopardize.
In our basic industries in Canada the use of electrical energy is, of course, very considerably greater than the figure I have placed on record. The 8 kilowatts might be multiplied many times over; and in some industries such as the aluminum industry, it might be multiplied many hundreds of times per man-hour. Therefore this source of electrical energy is of vital importance to us.
I do not propose to say anything about Eskimo affairs, except that the Eskimo is not an Indian, and must be treated differently. He lives in a different part of the world.
I notice the bill makes reference to the forest and water resources of Canada, and I assume it refers only to those forest and water resources which are not within provincial jurisdiction. Therefore I should think that this bill will not require any alterations in the terms of the British North America Act.
The subject of national parks has been dealt with in another bill, but I am glad to see it in the omnibus legislation before us. There is also in the bill reference to historic places and monuments, also a subject dealt with in another bill.
Then we see reference to the archaeology, ethnology and fauna and flora of Canada, as well as reference to the national museum. I should like to mention briefly some of the problems which present themselves in connection with the national museum. I would say that it is in a most unsatisfactory state in that it is too small and is crowded with people and things from other departments.

Many of the exhibits are crated and hidden away, and they must remain so for years to come. I hope that when the federal plan for the beautification of Ottawa is fully developed one of the first projects will be adequate provision for the proper housing of a national museum, separate and apart altogether from the art gallery.
There is one other point I would mention, and which might be classified either in the subject of ethnology or in that of historic places and monuments. I refer to the decay on the Pacific coast of the totem poles, something which I consider nothing less than a disgrace. The modern Indian is not interested in the traditions and history signified by the totem pole. The result is that many of these historic monuments-for that is what they are-are now lying rotting, or in a state of decay. These are found all up and down the Pacific coast. I would sincerely hope that one of the first acts of the new minister would be to see that these relics of our history, because that is what they are, might be restored, or at least that there might be preservation of those parts remaining.
Then I find here reference to the tourist industry, and I would hope that in that connection there might be a greater national appeal. It seems to me that the average tourist, particularly from the United States, can leave that country, pass through minor formalities at the frontier, and spend a week or two in Canada without ever realizing that he is in another country. There comes to mind little things like the flying of the stars and stripes rather than the Canadian flag at tourist resorts. I think anyone touring this country should be impressed by the national characteristics and life of the country. I realize that this is not something to be legislated for, but certainly it can be encouraged. When a visitor comes to Canada he should be made to feel that he is in another country; that we are Canadians; that we have a definite, specific national life and we are Canadians, not merely Americans living across an invisible line. There are many ways of doing that; but I just venture to say that that would be one of the things that would make tourist travel in Canada at least distinctive, which it is not at the present time.
I should also like to see the encouragement of things like the Shakespearean festival at Stratford and perhaps the summer symphonies, which could make this country alive for the tourists to see, and not merely endless roads, excellent as they are in many ways but not distinguishable from roads in any United States state.

Before I close I want to mention one further thing, because this bill deals with irrigation. At the present time the world is suffering from a food famine. One would not believe it, listening to debates here in which are mentioned hundreds of millions of bushels of wheat in storage without any market for them. Nevertheless the world is suffering from a famine. There are more people with not enough to eat today than at any time in the present century. I think I am safe in saying that. The growth of the population has brought that about.
Sir Dudley Stamp, who was the director of food production in the United Kingdom during the war, and who at one time was professor of agronomy at either Wisconsin or Minnesota, has, with the help of the world food organization, shown that the greatest potential increase in the production of food is in the great plains area of North America. We have not considered this to be as important as we might because we have been bedevilled with the problem, and we still are bedevilled with the problem, of finding a market for our surplus food. Nevertheless, if we are to endeavour to be citizens of the world, there is a problem which we must face, namely, the finding of ways in which to produce and market the increase of food which the great plains can and will produce. It is a matter that I will not go into at this moment because it concerns the delicate subject of the convertibility of currency. Nevertheless it does present a challenge to us in Canada.
Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I welcome this bill. I wish the new minister well in his department. I hope that his annual reports will tell a story of production and development as substantial as I optimistically believe the situation warrants.


Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo):: Mr. Speaker, I was particularly pleased, in listening to the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent), to hear him state that this gave the house an opportunity for a national stocktaking; for it seems to me that is an undertaking that is long overdue and it is something in the nature of a national stocktaking that I wish to undertake this afternoon.
In British Columbia we are particularly interested in the development of the northern territories, owing to our close association with the Yukon Territory and to the fact also that from the ports of British Columbia go many of the ships that traverse the northern coasts of this continent. We are also interested in this bill from another point of view, namely, that in British Columbia we have had, possibly not alone, among districts in
Northern Affairs and National Resources Canada, some unfortunate experiences in the past with measures taken in previous years for the development of our resources.
We have a long history of expropriation, shall we say, of resources by private individuals with the aid and the help of past governments and parliaments. We have in the area which I represent in this house one of the most striking examples of that perhaps in the whole of Canada. I refer to the notorious-and I use the word "notorious" advisedly-Esquimalt and Nanaimo land grant, whereby a grant of a quarter of the whole of Vancouver island was given to a group of enterprising gentlemen as a subsidy or part of a subsidy for the building of 70 miles of railroad, and in addition they got some $750,000 in cash and very valuable tax exemption privileges.
In British Columbia we do not forget that, because we come up against it every day in our provincial and in our local financial problems. These tax exempt privileges are now a burden on the people of that part of British Columbia. We have had also in more recent times in British Columbia a development, perhaps one of the new methods, by which private enterprise manages to dig its fingers into the public pocket. We have on Vancouver island now the site of a large publicly-owned hydroelectric development, and it is interesting because of the circumstances which surround that particular development in my province. It was developed ostensibly for the purpose of bringing cheap electrical power to rural areas, to the farm and to the rural homes of Vancouver island. It was only later of course that it became plain that this large investment of public funds had been undertaken for the prime and sole purpose of pro viding very cheap power for one particular interest, to such an extent, sir, that the rates charged to that corporation which were divulged only a year or two ago-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The hon. member will realize that when he discusses the rates charged by hydroelectric plants it is a matter with which this government cannot interfere. It is a matter which comes under provincial jurisdiction. It is true to say that the Prime Minister talked about stocktaking, but I do not think he wanted to embrace the very many questions which concern the entire economy of the country. The accent is on the importance to be given to northern affairs. If the hon. member will direct his remarks toward stocktaking in connection with the northern sections of our country, I think they will be more relevant to the bill before the house.
704	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources


Colin Cameron: I introduced that matter in order to preface the argument I wished to make with regard to the type of development that in my opinion should take place in the northern territories. I trust I shall be in order in making that explanation. I have here a list of some of the investments of public funds which have taken place in other parts of Canada and which I trust will not be taken as an example to be followed in future action on the part of the government with regard to the northern territories.
For instance, the subsidies paid to the iron and steel industry of Canada between 1939 and 1951 totalled $61,457,663. The coal subventions paid to one firm and its subsidiaries between the years-


Mr. Speaker:: I do not think the hon. member is in order in putting on Hansard details of the moneys paid to these firms. What is now before the house is the creation of a new department to replace the present Department of Resources and Development. The new department is to be known as the department of northern affairs and national resources. In effect this is a consolidated act which we have before us. The procedure could have been followed by amending the present act which is to be repealed by the last section of this bill. If the hon. member directs his remarks to the bill along the lines that have so far been followed I think he will be in order.


Colin Cameron: I was basing my remarks upon the Prime Minister's statement that this bill dealt with the administration and the development of the resources of these northern territories. I assumed that it would be quite in order to discuss the various types of resource development that might take place in these areas.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member is discussing what he considers to be abuses or defects in the manner in which these developments have been brought about elsewhere. He hopes by citing these abuses and the expenses involved therein that this will not be repeated in the new development. But he should not discuss the abuses in detail. If he does discuss them, then he is not discussing the creation of this department. The legislation under which these so-called abuses might have been permitted may not have been federal legislation. Many of these laws have been passed by provincial legislatures. In such case the hon. gentleman would be discussing something with which this parliament is not concerned.


Colin Cameron: With all due
respect, the figures that I cited were taken


from the records of this house and referred to subventions paid by the government of Canada. Are they not in order?


Mr. Speaker:: We do not want to spend too much time on the point of order. The hon. member may carry on keeping in mind the observations that I made.


Mr. Hansell:: May I draw your attention to
this point. We are discussing whether or not it is advisable to open a new department. I submit that members of the house should be able to say why they want the department opened or why they do not want it opened. Therefore it may be necessary to discuss certain ramifications such as the hon. member has been doing in order to indicate why we want it opened, what we expect the new minister to do or what we want to warn him not to do. That may involve going back into history to show what has happened before. I submit that there should be a fair amount of latitude in connection with argument on the matter.


Mr. Speaker:: I thank the hon. member for his remarks, but my first point is that by this bill we are, as he says, creating a new department. Under section 13 the Department of Resources and Development is to be replaced by the department of northern affairs and national resources. I do not want to limit the scope of the discussion, but when the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Cameron) was talking about development in the northern territories, with which this bill is concerned, he went on to say that he hoped that certain developments which had taken place, and which according to him had not been conducted to his satisfaction, would not be repeated when the development of the northern regions took place.
From there he went on to quote examples to show the abuses that had been committed, in his opinion, and how certain matters had not been correctly done. If he were to continue in that manner he would be discussing something with which the minister would have nothing to do. The subventions he has mentioned are matters of policy that possibly come under another department of government. I was merely pointing out that if we are to discuss matters which are not pertinent to this department we may be wasting the time of the house. In any event, the hon. member may continue with his speech.


Colin Cameron: I shall not pursue the citing of those examples as I do not wish to trespass on your time. However, I do feel at this time when, as the government realizes in setting up a new department, we

ire facing a planned and proper development if our vast northern territories, we should ake stock not merely of what we have done n the past but also of some of the develop-nents that have taken place in other parts if the world, which indicate that while there till are very vociferous voices raised on lehalf of private enterprise, in actual fact n many parts of the world, not the least n North America, the actual practice has >een in complete contradiction of those irinciples.
The hon. member who spoke before me cientioned some of the developments which tave taken place in the United States. One f the most important developments there, conomically, politically, and socially, has een that of the Tennessee valley authority, 'his was a multiple-purpose development diich literally transformed the life of the /hole area. It was not confined to one aspect f the economy but covered the whole range f human activity. Conducted as it was under erhaps the modern democratic idea, it was ot a regimented system, it was a system rtroduced after careful consultation with the eople involved and by planning, and of ourse through the investment of vast public jnds. I am suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that ur government will have to bear these xamples in mind, particularly now when 'om all sides of this house and from all arts of the country there come statements 'hich signify that our people realize that 'e have a profound responsibility to the 2st of the world, a responsibility based on ur extremely fortunate economic position. The question I should like to pose to this ouse is this: In complying with the wide-pread demand, in which I am sure we all rare, and remembering that when we comply rith that demand we are asking the Canadian eople to pay the bill, should we at the same me ask them to pay as part of that bill the rofit of private organizations? In fact, when hear hon. members, such as the one who soke before me, speaking of the way in 'hich these developments have taken place ad are taking place in my province, being )lely the fruit of private enterprise, I wonder ist how close an eye people keep on exactly hat happens in the Canadian economy; scause this particular project of which he as speaking, the Alcan project, is of course a undertaking by the same company which as properties at Arvida, as I recall.
The history of this house will demonstrate tat the Canadian people granted to that comany very valuable tax concessions in the ay of accelerated depreciation on the ground iat the company's plant, expanded for war 83276-45
Northern Affairs and National Resources purposes, would produce far too much aluminum for post-war needs. I suggest that many of the claims of free enterprise are in fact fraudulent claims, and that what we are told is free enterprise is in large measure the activity of people who come hat in hand to this parliament and to this government for help in the form of subsidies, subventions, tax concessions and accelerated depreciation, all of which come out of the Canadian taxpayer's pocket. When they make these investments they are in fact investing money that rightfully belongs to the people of Canada.
I would suggest to the government that now it is taking an active interest in our northern territories it should consider the example of the United States administration of the late President Roosevelt when he inaugurated the Tennessee valley authority, and the government should consider whether the time has come when this vast public expenditure on investments, which I think most of us know is going to be necessary in the future to assist our economy, should not be made by this government from public funds with the return coming to the people of Canada either in the form of additions to our public treasury, or in the form of services and goods produced for our own consumption and for aid to those abroad.
I think the historians of the future, if indeed there are historians in future and we have not all become fissionable material, will look at this mid-twentieth century as, shall I say, the watershed of political and economic thought, and the point from which the world began to move with ever-accelerated speed towards a collectivized and co-operative world. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that if Canada is to play her part in that and the basis on which she will play her part is the development of our northern territories, then it is time that we and our government took account of these wide trends in world development today instead of relying, as they have done in the past, on that course, disastrous to the Canadian people, called free enterprise, which actually in many instances is merely a disguised form of contributions from the public treasury invested under private auspices.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would the hon. gentleman permit a question? Am I not right in thinking that the Tennessee valley authority, while it developed power under public auspices, nevertheless had as its main object the provision of power for use by various private enterprises? That is my understanding of this project as set out in a book written some years ago by Mr. Lilienthal, who, I think, was one
706	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources of the authors of the project. That is my understanding and I wonder whether the situation has changed.


Colin Cameron: The hon. member's understanding is true to a certain extent, but if he examines the operation of the Tennessee valley authority-and I may say that I had an extensive correspondence with Mr. David Lilienthal some years ago-he will find that a very large part of their energy was devoted to the regeneration of areas that had deteriorated both agriculturally and economically and the recovery of which necessitated a wide program covering even the fields of education and health services before the Tennessee valley authority's underlying economic purpose could be fulfilled. Moreover, not only was power sold to private enterprise, but in that Tennessee valley authority scheme certain products were produced by the Tennessee valley authority itself, very valuable products such as fertilizer for use on farms in that area and in the rest of the southern states.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would again urge this government to look to the development of the northern territories as an opportunity for trying out these new economic, social and political tools that are being developed all around us whether we are prepared to admit it or not.


Mr. B. R. Leboe (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to this bill I would like to say, as a new member, that in listening to some of the speeches made in this house I often wonder whether these speeches are intended to be a demonstration of the respective members' speaking ability or are a sincere attempt to contribute something to the debate.
I must confess I am not an excellent speaker, but I hope to be able to contribute to this debate something that will be of value to members of this house and also of assistance to those who are charged with the responsibility of developing our northern resources.
I think the greatest aid to development is the provision of communications, the railways, highways and telephone systems which I think are required more than anything else at this time in order to assist this projected development. We have found in the past that capital has been available for the development of areas where ample communication services were available. It seems to me that wherever we have provided these services people have been prepared to go into such places. If people can have a fairly respectable living and decent conditions they are only too willing to pioneer. Possibly I come
[Mr. Macdonnell.l

from a pioneering family. I lived in a land of promises where we were promised things for 30 or 40 years and they never came.
There are various matters that should be taken into consideration so far as northern development is concerned, and I am going to refer particularly to the area which I represent because the development of the northern part of Canada and the Yukon is directly related to that of the part of British Columbia from which I come. First of all I want to mention the highway situation. There should be co-operation between this department which we are now creating, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Public Works, as hinted in the Prime Minister's address a short while ago. In order to have development we must have co-ordination of the efforts of these various departments. Too often we find that we have isolated the different departments too well, and that there is not enough dovetailing of effort to secure the most for the taxpayer's dollar.
There is a new highway that runs right through my riding from north to south. It enters the riding at Marguerite and a thousand miles to the north passes into the Yukon at Lower Post. This is an arterial highway in the province of British Columbia which carries traffic from the United States to Alaska, passing through the Yukon. I consider that as an arterial highway it deserves the consideration of the federal government with respect to support. I am not suggesting how this is to be accomplished or how much the support should be; I am only saying that in my opinion financial support should be extended.
There is another matter which is directly concerned with northern development, and that is the development of highways in Canada on the basis of their classification as arterial highways. I suggest that they should be so classified and that federal support should be granted on that basis. Telephone communications should naturally follow the development of our highways. On our highways we find that we have the ribbon development that is so necessary to take care of travellers passing back and forth over these roads.
I am not going to take much more time. I should like to mention the railway situation. There is a railway running from Squamish at the present time-and we hope in the not too distant future it will be extended to Vancouver-north as far as Prince George. I think it is essential that the departments of the federal government and the provincial government co-operate with respect to pushing railroads northward

from Prince George, and perhaps also from Dawson Creek or Hines Creek through the Peace pass to Finlay Forks and thence north to the Yukon with a connecting link to Hazelton and Prince George.
Without seeing these places on a map it is rather difficult for hon. members to visualize exactly what I am speaking about, but those who are interested only have to glance at a map to realize that this is an important step in the development of the north country.
There is only one more point I wish to make. I do not know whether this bill will be the means of making provision for the reclamation and recognition of historic places, but I should like to say that I believe at one time Barkerville was the largest city west of Chicago. Today there are many historic buildings in Barkerville which should receive some consideration if it is within the scope of this measure to do so.
That is all I have to say at this time. I know there are other speakers who have a great deal to contribute to the debate. I certainly appreciate the time afforded to me, and I hope that when the matters I have mentioned are examined it will be found that in some way I have contributed to this debate.


Mr. J. A. Simmons (Yukon):: Mr. Speaker, after listening to previous speakers in this iebate I am sure you would wish me to confine my remarks directly to the principle rf the bill. I am sure it will be quite obvious Erom the remarks made by the Prime Minister Mr. St. Laurent) on second reading that the aouse will be glad to give unanimous endorsa-;ion to the principle of the bill, which gives lew emphasis to the important part which lorthern affairs and northern development play in the welfare of this country. The bill represents an achievement which will be leneficial to the development, welfare and administration of the Yukon.
It is most gratifying to see the renewed [DOT]ecognition which this bill gives to the vital a art played in the economy of Canada by ;hese northern areas, a most important section >f which I have the honour to represent in he house. It is also pleasing to note the 'reater emphasis with respect to the power vhich is given to the minister to co-ordinate he activities in the north of all federal lepartments and agencies, to formulate plans or the conservation and development of these *esources, and to undertake, promote or [DOT]ecommend measures for the further eco-lomic and political development of the Yukon ind the Northwest Territories. I can assure he minister that he will have my whole-learted support and that of the people of 83276-45J
Northern Affairs and National Resources the Yukon in any sound measures he undertakes for the further economic and political development of the Yukon Territory, and I hope he will take into consideration the views and experience of the people who have spent a lifetime in the Yukon.
The economic development of the north is primarily dependent upon the development of its mineral resources, and the people are looking to the government to provide encouragement and help. The development of other resources such as water power, lands, forests and so on will follow and be dependent upon the development of its minerals. When our two great natural resources, minerals and water power, are brought together, great developments that contribute to the welfare of the Yukon and of Canada generally are possible. I feel gratified, consequently, that this fact has been recognized by various mining and development companies which have been investigating in the field the mineral and power potential of the Yukon Territory and northern British Columbia. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that great progress has been made to date.
I suggest the policy in regard to this vast enterprise, now in its early stages, should be one of energy and vision with the realization that here is an opportunity to really develop the Yukon Territory. I do not doubt the government fully realizes the possibilities. I have every confidence that the minister will have ample opportunity to display vision in formulating plans for the development of these resources. I hope also, Mr. Speaker, that he will be blessed with the same vision the fathers of confederation had when they laid the plans which cemented the widely scattered provinces into this nation of which we are so proud.
It is not so long ago since we were pushing our frontiers to the west, but our new frontier is now to the north. It is in that direction we must now face, and it is this frontier that we must roll back so Canada will have depth as well as breadth. The opening of the west was accelerated by the provision of transportation and communication facilities. The provision of these facilities was not left entirely to private enterprise, but was assisted in varying ways by the federal government.
We all know that the improvement of communications in any part of Canada helps to bind our country together, to make us more united and to speed up the development of our great resources. There is no part of Canada where transportation and communication are more vital than in the Yukon and in the north country generally. The economic development of the north will be encouraged and accelerated by the provision of these
708	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources facilities. The area of the north is so vast, and the distance is so great, that it would seem only wise for the federal government to assume a much greater share of the burden in providing these essential facilities and services.
I am sure we all agree, Mr. Speaker, that one way of ensuring a period of prosperity and development for the next century would be to embark on a wholesale development of our northern heritage. There is a job to be done in the Yukon and Northwest Territories for the benefit of this and future generations, so we may reap the harvest of our northern inheritance.
Section 6 of the bill delegates responsibility to the minister to undertake and promote measures for the further economic development of the Yukon and Northwest Territories.
At this time I should like to briefly mention some of the more important projects which, in my opinion, would contribute to the immediate economic development of the Yukon territory. I hope that at another time I may have the opportunity of enlarging on the benefits of these projects, but at the moment I shall only mention them briefly.
They are the construction of an all-weather road from Dawson westward to the Yukon-Alaska boundary to connect with the existing highway system in Alaska and the Alaska highway; improvement of the road from Stewart Crossing to Dawson to the same standard as the Whitehorse-Mayo road; construction of permanent bridges along the Whitehorse-Mayo road to replace the ferries; construction of an all-weather road from Mayo northward to tap the rich mineral resources known to exist in the watersheds of the Beaver and Peel rivers; participation in the construction of an all-weather road from Carcross, Yukon to tidewater at Skagway, Alaska; rehabilitation of the Canol road in the Yukon; expansion of stream measurement programs to encourage hydroelectric development; improvement of the presently hazardous airfields at Dawson and Mayo to provide safer runways and modern flying facilities; construction of a radio station powerful enough to provide news and cultural programs to all people in the Yukon Territory, such as are now enjoyed by people in less remote parts of Canada; construction of a railway from Prince George, British Columbia northward through the Rocky mountain trench into the Yukon and thence to Alaska.
There are other important projects which I shall not mention at this time. Section 6 of the bill, Mr. Speaker, also delegates to the minister responsibility for planning


and promoting measures for the further political development of the Yukon and Northwest Territories. As the population increases with the growing economic development there will undoubtedly have to be a parallel development of the political institutions of the territory. We have experienced representative government in the Yukon for well over 50 years. With the great development and the increasing population we will experience in the next few years, the time will then be ripe to provide a further step in constitutional development, so the executive will be responsible to the territorial legislature which has been accepting the responsibility without a corresponding right of control. X feel confident that a large measure of selfgovernment will naturally follow.
I am pleased to say that the present financial arrangement between the Yukon government and the federal government has led to a better understanding between the two governments, but it does not take sufficiently into account the accelerated tempo of development which we are now experiencing in the Yukon Territory. It is to be hoped that this agreement will be amended to provide for more generous recognition of the true situation. I certainly hope the minister and the deputy minister will pay a visit to the Yukon this summer. I can assure them that they will be welcomed by all Yukoners.
I wish to express my appreciation also of the Prime Minister's action in creating this department to deal with northern affairs. He has shown farsightedness and a sound and sympathetic human reaction to the often unexpressed but deep feeling of the people of our north country. The signs of the times appear to justify Laurier's forecast that the twentieth century shall be a century of Canada and of Canadian development. Let us approach the question of developing our northern frontiers in the earnest and candid spirit of men bound by the same interests, seeking the same common end, and loving the same country.


George Alexander Drew: Less than half an hour ago the President of the United States of America completed one of the most significant speeches of our time. It is a speech which should offer greater encouragement than the people of this world have had for many years. The fact that it was so clearly a speech which represented the united opinions of the United States, Great Britain and France gives it a significance and meaning that should reach the heart of every person in this world,

whether beyond the iron curtain or on this side of it, who looks toward that day of peace for which we have all been hoping.
I mention this because that speech in many ways was directly related to the subject matter of the bill now before us, which has to do with the possibilities of that immense area within which was first discovered on this North American continent the fissionable material from which such destructive forces have been built as part of the common defence of freedom throughout these past years.
After having reviewed the terrifying increase in the power of atomic weapons which find their source in minerals which have been discovered in abundance in our own north country, the President placed before the United Nations and the world proposals for a peaceful solution of this terrifying problem, which could mean not only the fulfilment of the hope of peace but could also mean an entirely new concept of the importance for us and for the whole world of that northern area, where there is not only an abundance of mineral resources of many kinds and a vast abundance of water power and other basic power, but also the fissionable materials from which undreamed of possibilities may emerge for those countries deficient in power, and because of that deficiency almost without hope of removing the poverty and distress which has been their lot for so long.
After a positive, clear and definite proposal for disarmament under international supervision and protection the President of the United States, speaking obviously not only on behalf of that country but also of Great Britain and France, proposed that there be set aside a great international pool or stockpile of fissionable materials for the continuing supply of such atomic and hydrogen weapons as might be necessary for the common defence of freedom, and also for the purpose of peaceful experiment and research, as a result of which fortunate lands like Canada and the United States might find new opportunities and other lands now in poverty might be offered resources of electrical power and agricultural advancement through the scientific employment of these minerals for peaceful purposes.
Surely a thought that will appeal to all mankind was the statement by the President this afternoon, made with unexcelled knowledge of the possibilities of its employment, that this most destructive of all forces, which today hangs as a cloud over the whole world, can become a boon greater than any that man has yet known. After proposing this
Canada Grain Act
international stockpile of normal uranium and fissionable material, he then challenged the imagination of his audience at the United Nations to contemplate what could be done if the scientists who are now devoting their energy to destruction used that accumulated knowledge in this new branch of science to explore the possibilities of the peaceful use of what he described as a bank of fissionable material for the production of electrical energy, which could be sent to the power-starved areas of the world, thus giving the nations which today see little sign of hope the possibilities of security, of happiness and of advancement which they could not foresee only a few years ago.
I find it difficult to believe that it is only a little more than 20 years ago that I flew to Great Bear lake and saw the new discovery of uranium at that distant point. At that time we thought simply of the possibilities of radium and of the scientific developments led by the Curies in Paris. It was on a later and tragic date in 1945 when the full menace of this new discovery dawned. Within those 20 years we have entered a new period in the history of the world.
If the offer extended so open-handedly today by the President of the United States at the United Nations, and so obviously with the support of Great Britain and France, is accepted in that spirit by the nations of the whole world-and I hope, as I believe we all hope, that it will be so accepted-then this northern area of Canada may become the centre of one of the greatest peaceful developments ever known to man.
Mr. Speaker, it is now five o'clock.


Mr. Speaker:: It being five o'clock the house will consider private and public bills.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


Hazen Robert Argue: the second reading of Bill No. 3, to amend the Canada Grain Act (distribution of box cars).
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity of once again proposing a new system for the distribution of box cars among elevator companies in western Canada. I believe the time is long since past when such a new method of box car distribution is necessary. Some may think, some may say, that the congestion now existing in western Canada in our grain marketing facilities is something of a very temporary nature, but I take issue with that point of

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view. I believe the congestion, we now have is likely to continue for some considerable time.
It used to be back in the 1930's, when grain crops were small, that elevators were often half empty or totally empty. And with a situation such as that you had real competition in the buying of grain. The farmer had a choice; he could take his grain to any elevator that he might wish to patronize, but the situation recently has been very much different. Elevators are almost always plugged. Farmers are short of money because they are not able to deliver a substantial quantity of grain. Therefore as soon as an elevator has some space available, farmers in that area feel obliged economically to haul grain to such elevator.
It used to be that elevator agents, like other business people, would obtain patrons if they had good business acumen I suppose you might term it, but such is not necessary now. The amount of business that is done by each elevator company at all of the points in western Canada is dependent almost solely on the number of box cars that are spotted at that company's elevator. The ability of the elevator agent does not matter so much. It does not matter too much whether farmers prefer that elevator company above others at that point. If the elevator company is given two box cars on a certain day, then the elevator agent will announce that he is prepared to buy 4,000 bushels of grain. Farmers will line up in front of that elevator the next day, and the grain will go into the elevator. When the 4,000 bushels have been marketed the sign will go up that no more grain can be accepted, and any farmers who have not been able to dump their loads will have to take them home. I say this is a situation that is not likely to be ended soon.
When I spoke in the debate a year ago on the same kind of bill I suggested to the minister that we might have a carryover at the end of July 31, 1953, of more than 330 million bushels of wheat. He said he did not believe those figures at all and called such a statement nonsense. But the actual carryover turned out to be 363 million bushels of wheat. Therefore I was a little too conservative in my estimate, but I was substantially correct. On the basis of the available quantities of wheat in the four exporting countries of the world today, in my judgment, we are going to face plugged elevators for another few years, at any rate. According to the wheat review for the month of October, on October 1, in the four exporting countries in the world, there were available for export and carryover 1,862 million bushels of wheat. That is sufficient wheat to All the international agreement as proposed before Britain withdrew.

It has been said by the Minister of Trade and Commerce and others, "Oh, well, this situation comes about because we have had two or three abnormally large crops." They go on to say that if we get back to normal crops it will probably correct the situation. I think we are likely to continue for some time to get average crops or higher than average crops; and if I were to hazard a guess as to the size of the 1954 wheat crop I would say, on the basis of ample reserves of moisture on the three prairie provinces and bearing in mind that farmers are using better agricultural practices than ever before, that we are likely to obtain in 1954 an average or a better than average crop. If that should come about, then we are going to face once again the same kind of congestion we are facing at the present time.
Somebody of course distributes box cars among the elevator companies at all the marketing points. The way in which it is ordinarily done is to leave it in the hands of the local railway agent; to leave the distribution of box cars to the railway companies. Very often the railway agents take this attitude. If there are four elevator companies doing business at a certain marketing point, and eight cars come into that marketing point, they say that a fairly equitable system of distribution is to give each of the four elevator companies two box cars. They do not-and I do not think they should be asked to-attempt to assess whether the farmers in that locality want to deliver larger quantities of grain to one elevator company than to another. They just say, "Oh, well, this is a fairly equitable method; it is an easy method, and it is the one we shall follow."
The minister said last year his understanding was that the normal method was to give the pool elevator company twice as many box cars as any other elevator company. I doubt very much whether that kind of formula is followed at many points. If you had at a given elevator point just two or three companies involved and the wheat pool was given twice as many box cars as the other company, or as each of the other two companies, it would be a somewhat equitable method; but even that method, when followed at an elevator point that had six or seven or eight competing companies, would mean that the wheat pool system would be tied down to about 25 per cent or less of the box cars, and therefore it could not accept a quantity of grain in excess of 25 per cent of the grain hauled to that elevator point.
Someone may say all is well, we have a transport controller. We have, but the

transport controller himself would be the first to point out that he does not control the distribution of box cars among elevator companies at any of the marketing points in western Canada. In other words the transport controller is not in the business of box car distribution at all. The transport controller merely looks over the situation in western Canada, as I understand it, and if he sees a certain area that is getting fewer box cars than he thinks it is entitled to, he asks the railway companies to spot within that area a larger number of box cars. At what elevators the railway companies spot their box cars is the business of the elevator companies themselves.
There is another method of box car distribution that is used. It is a method that is provided for in the Canada Grain Act, and it is known as the car order book or the car order book system. Under that method a farmer may go into the railway station, direct the railway agent to produce the car order book, and order a car. Other farmers may come and each order a box car. This method was intended originally to protect the farmers against elevator companies that were taking excessive dockage or were underweighing; but it is now used instead to distribute box cars among the elevator companies. If one looks over the situation on the prairies it is very easy to see what elevator system is being discriminated against when box car distribution is left to the railway companies. You now have wheat pool farmers promoting the use of the car order book at as many marketing points as possible. Why?
Wheat pool officials have informed me that at almost every point where the car order book has been put into effect, wheat pool purchases have increased. So you have the wheat pool organization throughout western Canada promoting the use of the car order book system, a system which they would be the first to admit was not provided originally for that purpose. It is a clumsy system but it gets the pool more box cars.
It may lead to ill will when a certain farmer or group of farmers go into a railway station and order cars without notifying the community that they are putting the car order book system into effect. The larger farmers have an advantage because even with the small quotas in existence at the present time such a farmer may have sufficient grain to fill a box car. The smaller farmers must go together and order a box car collectively in order to market their grain.
The car order book system as we now have it is being used for purposes for which
Canada Grain Act
it was not intended. Because of that it is a clumsy and outdated method. The suggestion I make is not to dispose of the car order book provision, because the farmers of western Canada have come to regard the Canada Grain Act as their charter of rights and the car order book section as being an important provision. I would not want to interfere with the provisions of the car order book section, but I do ask the minister and the government to give consideration to a new and additional method which might be used for the spotting of box cars at any elevator point when the car order book system has not been put into effect.
My bill asks for a new section in the car order book provision so that when a farmer is filling in his permit book he might, before October 1 of any year, post his acreage among the elevator companies at that marketing point. For example, if a farmer had 300 acres of crop and there were three elevator companies doing business at that marketing point, he might want to deliver the product of 100 acres (to each of the three elevators. Or he might want to distribute 50 per cent of his acreage to one elevator and divide the remaining 50 per cent between the other two. Or he might want to post his entire acreage to one elevator company.
This new system would place once again in the hands of the producers the right to deliver grain to the elevator of their choice. They would assume the right to decide the proportion of box cars going to each elevator company. As I said at the outset, it does not matter now too much where the farmer wants to deliver his grain, as he is forced to deliver grain to the elevator company which has room. The elevator company which has room is the elevator company that is being given box cars.
I believe this provision is a sensible one. If the minister or the government believe that any improvement can be made in a principle such as this, I am not tied to the wording of this bill; but I do believe that such a provision, or a similar provision at any rate, is absolutely essential.
One of the things that has disturbed me is the practices that have been followed from time to time which I believe have resulted in a larger quantity of grain going through the line elevator companies than would otherwise be the case if the farmers had a method by which they could determine the distribution of box cars.
In July of this year quotas were removed completely, before the end of the crop year. I do not think my statement can be contradicted when I say that when those quotas

Canada Grain Act
were removed in July, the line companies throughout western Canada had a greater proportion of empty space than had the pool elevator systems. The quotas came off and the farmers were able to haul grain to any elevator at any point. It was by that method that the line elevators were filled.
On October 9 the car order book provision of the Canada Grain Act was arbitrarily discontinued by the transport controller. I am not saying there were not reasons for doing that, but one result was that further hundreds of thousands of bushels of grain were put through the line elevators. In support of that statement I have a letter from D. H. Munholland, secretary of the wheat pool at Strasbourg, Saskatchewan, dated December 1, 1953. It is addressed to my colleague the hon. member for Moose Jaw-Lake Centre (Mr. Thatcher), and I would like to read two short paragraphs from the letter as follows:
When the transport controller discontinued the use of the car order book in October we were forced to accept 25 per cent of the box cars as there are four companies doing business on this market.
We have also records to prove that we have enjoyed 52 per cent of the grain receipts for the past 15 years.
In other words the pool elevator at that marketing point had 52 per cent of the business when the farmers were allowed to select their own elevator. Then the transport controller took away the car order book provision. The railroad companies then said, "We will not distribute box cars on the proportion of 52 per cent to the pool elevators where 52 per cent of the farmers want to do their business. We will give each of the four elevator companies 25 per cent of the box cars."
How would any hon. member of this house, particularly any member of the Conservative party, of the Liberal party or of the Social Credit party who professes to believe in free enterprise, like to be told that gasoline would be distributed in such a way that he must buy part of his gasoline requirements from a certain company? How would he like to be forced to buy a certain percentage of his repairs for his automobile from a certain company?
When cars were distributed at Strasbourg on the basis of 25 per cent to each elevator company you were forcing farmers at that point to market 75 per cent of their grain through the line elevators and 25 per cent through the pool elevator, even though 52 per cent of the grain under ordinary free competition would go through the pool elevator system.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Would the hon. member permit a question? I hope he will appreciate that I am asking this question seriously, as I am seeking information on this point. When this matter was under debate on April 21, 1953, the then hon. member for The Battle-fords said, as will be found at page 4180 of Hansard:
I think I am correct in saying that at the annual meeting of the Saskatchewan wheat pool delegates last November or December a proposal similar to this was brought forward, and I think I am correct in saying it was voted down.
Could the hon. member give us detailed information on that subject?


Hazen Robert Argue: I think I could on that subject, but not on that specific question. I believe I stated at that time I would be extremely surprised if any such motion were defeated at the wheat pool convention in 1952. However, the wheat pool had its 1953 convention a few weeks ago, in the first part of November. I am coming to that at a later point, but let me tell my hon. friend right now that a resolution was passed at the annual wheat pool convention held in Regina early in November asking for a new system of box car distribution along the lines I have outlined in my bill. Naturally, in a resolution they could not set out a bill, but I shall quote to the house the exact wording of that resolution; and I can also report from conversations I have had with officials of pool elevators that they would support the principle of the bill that I am moving this afternoon.
I do not say they would not want their law officers to go over it and perhaps make minor amendments, but certainly they would support the provision that farmers be allowed to post their acreage among elevator companies thereby deciding the percentage of box cars that shall go to each elevator. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the action that has been taken by the wheat board in removing quotas and by the transport controller in cancelling the car order book has resulted in the line elevator system being given additional millions of bushels of grain when, if the western farmers had a free choice, these line elevator companies might never have received any of it.
I am hopeful the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who believes in free competition and certainly I think should believe in giving people freedom of choice, should restore some competition in the buying of grain in western Canada, since that competition, because of congestion, is largely non-existent at the present time.

I have a letter from Mr. Peter Eppon, secretary of the Wilkie, Saskatchewan, wheat pool committee in western Canada. This well-documented letter contains a wealth of information, but I shall read only the last two or three points from his letter to me. He states that on May 5, 1953, when the quota was raised at Wilkie from 8 bushels to 15 bushels per acre, the space distribution was as follows: In the pool elevator there was space for only 5,893 bushels of grain, and in the other two line elevator companies there was space for 52,900 bushels.
In other words, there was over eight times the space in the other two elevators as compared with that available in the pool elevator, when the quota was raised. On May 6, 1953, Mr. Eppon said the quota was raised at Wilkie from 15 to 18 bushels per acre and the space distribution was as follows: The space available at the pool elevator was 4,992 bushels, whereas the space available at the other two elevators was 57,900, or a ratio of 11 to 1. Once again the quota was such that these other elevator companies would soon have their space filled. On July 21, when the quota was taken off, there was space at the pool elevator for 9,429 bushels, and at the other two elevators for 74,500 bushels.
I repeat the result of the policy now followed, and as outlined in the letters I have read to the house, is to force farmers to market a large percentage of their grain through the line elevator system. I must point out that the adoption of the bill could and no doubt would at some elevator points in western Canada result in the line elevator agent receiving a higher proportion of box cars and a larger proportion of grain because some line elevator agents are very popular persons. They may be at what is ordinarily a weak pool elevator point, and if farmers were given a free choice in box car distribution it is more than likely that at a large number of points the line elevators would buy a larger proportion of grain than the pool.
Fine and good; I would not object to that at all. I would like to see it happen, because what I want to see happen is the producers having the right to market grain at elevators of their own choice, but until they have control of box car distribution that cannot happen.
When I spoke in this debate last year the Minister of Trade and Commerce had some objections which I do not think were particularly valid. The minister said that to bring in provisions such as I have included in Bill No. 3 would mean a great rigidity in the distribution of box cars. Supposing,
Canada Grain Act
he asked, an elevator has a lot of spoiled grain? That elevator company, he asserted, would need quite a substantial number of box cars in order to move out the grain that might be in danger of spoiling.
I would be quite happy to see, as I probably would in any case, section 68, paragraph 2, of the Canada Grain Act applied to this provision as it now applies to the car order book, which gives the board of grain commissioners the right to send in more box cars in order to prevent grain from spoiling. I would go so far as to say that I would not object to this formula not being followed for a substantial period of time if there were valid reasons just so long as each company had received its percentage of box cars at the year's end. I would not care if I knew that my pool elevator on this formula was to get 60 per cent of the box cars and the line elevators got 20 per cent each. If the line elevator got 20 one day and the pool got none it would make no difference as long as over the period of a year box cars would be provided up to 60 per cent to the pool and 40 per cent for the line elevators, as determined by the producers.


Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):: The hon. member is asking us to enact a perfectly rigid law which allows no flexibility whatever, and then he says he does not care whether there is a lot of flexibility. How does he reconcile these two points?


Hazen Robert Argue: I have had a little experience in drafting private members' bills and a little experience with the government, and I have found that if you try to prepare yourself against every argument that may be advanced by the government then you get a bill that bogs down in detail, and then you would be in exactly the same position as that in which I have seen the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) when he tries to argue on the details of a particular measure instead of keeping to the principle.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member then wishes to reverse things and put the government in that position. If the government allows that there will be no flexibility whatever. My hon. friend is seeking to amend the Canada Grain Act by a perfectly rigid section that allows no flexibility whatever.


Hazen Robert Argue: To that statement I reply that the Canada Grain Act with this provision would be much less rigid than it now is with the car order book system, which provides that the next car that comes into Smithville shall be spotted for farmer A at a certain elevator. That system has been so
714

Canada Grain Act
rigid that the transport controller from time to time has suspended the provisions of the car order book. I say that if this formula were placed in the Canada Grain Act it would be much less rigid than the present system and would serve a very useful purpose.
I will read the provisions I have suggested. My bill provides that the Canada Grain Act is amended by inserting therein immediately after section 72 the following sections:
72A. Any producer, as defined in section 15 of the Canadian Wheat Board Act, chapter 44 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952, may, before the first day of October in any year, enter in the car order book his acreage seeded to grain as shown in his permit book pursuant to sections 18 and 19 of the said act, and may assign that acreage among the elevator companies at his marketing point.
72B. If-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Before the hon. member leaves 72A, the permit book does not give his seeded acreages.


Hazen Robert Argue: Oh, yes, it does.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Hazen Robert Argue: I have filled out my own.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It gives his cultivated acreages.


Hazen Robert Argue: It gives all the acreage. It gives the acreage seeded to wheat, the acreage seeded to barley, the acreage seeded to oats, the acreage seeded to flax and the acreage in summerfallow, the total of all these acreages being the farmer's cultivated acreage. The permit books do give the seeded acreage. Otherwise when the supplementary quota is put into effect at so much per acre on barley, how can they establish such a quota if the seeded acreage is not given?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is based on cultivated acreage.


Hazen Robert Argue: Section 72B reads as follows:
If, at any time, no unfilled application for a car appears in the car order book at a marketing point, the railway agent shall then apportion railway cars among the elevator companies in the proportion that the acreage has been divided among the elevator companies.
I say that provision is a whole lot less rigid than listing 100 farmers under the car order book system and having to spot in rotation at a certain elevator, as specified in the car order book, each individual car as it comes in. We have a rigid formula now. The trouble is that when it is removed the producer has no control. As was done in the case to which I referred, the railway agent can say that each elevator shall get

25 per cent of the box cars. That is a rigid formula. The elevator agent can spot the box cars as he sees fit.
This is another thing that happens. Everybody is human. We all like to have friends, and some people are better friends of ours than others. You have the human element, and I know it is true there are instances of definite favouritism shown by railway officials when they themselves, not the transport controller, have the right as they now have to distribute box cars when the car order book system is not in effect.
I come to the question asked by the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) with respect to where the farm organizations, and particularly the wheat pool, stand with regard to this matter. In the Western Producer of November 19, which is the wheat pool publication, there appears an article headed "Seek Changes in Grain Act". The article goes on to say that a committee composed of officials from the three prairie pools was set up last year, that a submission was brought in and that certain recommendations were agreed to. The article continues:
In the directors' report to the delegates, the board recommended an effort be made to find a workable plan for the equitable distribution of cars between elevators and shipping points throughout the three provinces on the basis of the amount of grain handled-
That is on the basis of past experience. If the pool elevators handled 52 per cent of the grain in the last 15 years they would want 52 per cent of the box cars. I continue: -or to be handled during the season, to the end that growers may be able to deliver grain to the country elevator of their choice.
I say my bill is perfectly in keeping with that recommendation, which asks for a new provision for the spotting of box cars in such a way as to enable farmers to deliver grain to the elevator of their own choice. We have the wheat board system of marketing grain, which the producers support. We have a quota system established from time to time, which the producers support. We have the Canada Grain Act with certain provisions in it for a car order book, but from time to time somebody comes along and interferes with the quota system and removes it altogether, or interferes with the operation of the Canada Grain Act by cancelling the car order book.
Then you are faced with the situation we now have, where farmers, because of economic necessity, are forced to market their grain at elevators where they would not otherwise market it.

I believe this problem can be solved. The transport controller has said that he is not in a position to solve it, and he will not try to do so. But the wheat pool officials in western Canada have definite recommendations as to how the problem can be solved.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They have never made them.


Hazen Robert Argue: If they have not made them I am sure they will make them soon.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might say for my hon. friend's information that the only representation I have had from the west is a letter from the solicitor for the Saskatchewan pool saying the bill the hon. member is presenting to the house is unworkable. That is the only official recommendation I have had.


Hazen Robert Argue: I should like to have that letter placed on the record, and I should also like to have Mr. Milliken's suggestion through the minister as to what amendments may be necessary to the Canada Grain Act to provide a workable solution. Let me say to the minister that I have talked with officials of the pool elevator system, I have talked with delegates, I have talked with directors of the pool organization, and from the statements made to me I can say they feel that a bill along the lines of the one I am presenting is workable and is in the interests of the producers of western Canada.
I say to the minister that there is a better method for the distribution of box cars than either letting the railway companies do it, which is what prevails in most instances now, or the car order book system which the pool officials have said is out of date. I suggest that by allowing the farmers to post their acreage and decide what percentage of box cars shall be spotted at the various elevator companies at the different points in western Canada you would have a method that is not nearly as cumbersome and rigid as the present car order book system, and a method similar to the one now followed in the distribution of box cars by railway agents with the great difference that whereas the railway companies now decide the percentage of box cars spotted at each elevator this bill would enable the producers to determine the distribution of box cars.


Mr. Rene N. Juiras (Provencher):: I feel, Mr. Speaker, I should say a word on this bill at this stage. To begin with, I do not agree with the hon. member who has just taken his seat on the point he has been trying to make for the last forty minutes, that the distribution of box cars throughout western Canada
Canada Grain Act
has been most inequitable. So far as I could ascertain throughout the country I think it is fair to say, and I think it should be said in fairness to the railways and the officials of the Canadian wheat board concerned in this business, that a sincere effort has been made to distribute the box cars as equitably as possible under all the circumstances. I know that in my home town and many other centres throughout the country I never heard anyone complain that the distribution of the box cars was made in the inequitable way that has been mentioned this afternoon.
This does not mean, of course, that there is no criticism of the system as a whole. We have been going through a period when the box car situation has been very tight. There have not been enough box cars to go around at each point, and as long as this situation continues there will be some people who will be dissatisfied at not getting as many box cars as they want. My impression is that the criticism is of the distribution of box cars as between areas or between provinces. Of course that is a different question than the one which is dealt with in this bill. So far as the distribution locally in a given centre is concerned, I want to repeat that the distribution has been done as fairly as was humanly possible in view of the shortage of box cars and the shortage of space.
The hon. member tried to make quite a point out of the free choice by the producers between elevators and box cars. This is a very laudable objective and what everybody is working toward, but so long as box cars are not available it will be very difficult to achieve that objective. He argued that the alternative to this was the car order book. This is not the first time the hon. member has used strong words in complaining about the arbitrary way in which the controller suspended the operation of the car order book. Yet in the same breath the hon. member made it quite clear that he did not believe the car order book was a good system to follow.


Hazen Robert Argue: Not at all; I did not say that.


René Jutras: That was the impression I got. If the hon. member believes in the car order book system, why would he request an alternative to that system? I think it should be said that the car order book system has not been removed from the act, as was stated by several members in this house in a previous debate. This provision is still a part of the Canada Grain Act, and I believe it should remain a part of the Canada Grain Act. I believe the principle is a good one. Whenever we reach the stage where the controller says the number of box cars is sufficient, then
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Canada Grain Act
by all means the producer should have the right of choice. If the producer is not satisfied with the line elevator company, then he should have the right to load his grain in box cars. So long as these box cars are not available, I would go so far as to say that I doubt very much if the car order book system could be operated successfully or even equitably.
When the controller was appointed a few years ago, as all hon. members know, we had one of the most difficult situations we have had at any time. One of the first things the controller did was to suspend the car order book. There has been quite a demand from various quarters to have the car order book reinstated. I understand that this system will be reinstated on the 14th of this month. Although I agree with the principle of the car order book system, I have some doubt that this procedure should be followed so long as there is a shortage of cars and a shortage of space. My opinion is that when the system is reinstated there will be an abuse of it, and it will have to be suspended again in the near future.
What the hon. member is trying to do is suggest a method of replacing the car order book, but if we proceed on the basis that the car order book has not flexibility and cannot be successfully operated during a period when cars are short, such as we have now, then his argument fails. Apparently this bill would put into the Canada Grain Act loading measures that would have the same practical effect as the car order book. I might say in passing that the hon. member is trying to get the support of the house for the principle of this bill, if not for the bill itself. Of course we are considering second reading of the bill, and we have no choice but to support the principle and not the bill. We have no alternative at this time.
In considering this bill we must consider the exact wording of it, and how it will affect the Canada Grain Act. I think that rather than amend the Canada Grain Act by inserting a provision which is so fluid and so uncertain, we should leave the field open for the controller and give some leeway, especially in view of the experience we have had with the car order book. If a system could be devised that would give the producer a free choice to go to any elevator, then it would presuppose that there are sufficient cars and sufficient space.
The hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue) more or less left the impression that he was quite disturbed that such large quantities of grain were delivered to the elevators. He made a point of saying that the elevator companies benefited greatly from this. Of course at the time the idea was to give the

farmers an opportunity of delivering their grain in order to realize cash. They tried to get all the space they could and fill it with grain.
Naturally that enabled a lot of farmers to deliver grain and realize some money on it. That is the very complaint at this moment, the complaint connected with surpluses on the western farms. What we want to do is get the grain away from the farms so we will still realize money on it. Surely hon. members should not critieize the board when it takes the grain and stores it, and at the same time criticize it for not taking the grain out on the farms. Hon. members cannot have it both ways. Certainly the board made an honest effort at that time. In criticizing what it does, hon. members should try at least to be helpful in their criticism.


Hazen Robert Argue: Does the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Jutras) know whether or not the Canadian wheat board, when it lifted the quotas on July 21, consulted farm organizations in western Canada? If so, did any farm organization .recommend the removal of all quotas.


René Jutras: Of course I know very well the quota was opened last summer. As to whether or not the wheat board consulted the farm organizations, one must keep in mind that after all the handling of grain by the board is no small business, no small responsibility. Surely it would be too much to expect the wheat board, at every move they make, to hold conferences and consultations for a week before taking action. I do not know whether the time element permitted them to have such consultations, or whether they were in a position to consult. It may be that they had phone calls; they might have phoned two or three people in the farm movement group, but this would not appear on the files. For all I know they might have held consultations.
The point I make is that their action was certainly an earnest effort to try to relieve the situation. This is not the first time that my hon. friend and some of his followers in the socialist group have advanced criticism of this type. I well recall that when an advance payment was made a few years ago there was an outcry from the socialist group to the effect that the advance payment should not have been made. That action was followed by a very persistent attempt by all groups in the opposition to have an advance payment made. Then the moment it was made there was an insinuation that it had been made for political purposes, and all that sort of thing.
Well, time has proved that this has been done year in and year out, in election years

and in years when there have been no elections. Yet the fact that it was made that year prompted criticism from certain quarters, and my hon. friend was one who joined in that criticism.


Hazen Robert Argue: That was an interim payment.


René Jutras: Yes, it was an interim payment, an advance interim payment. This year the crop year is extended for a little while, and we have another situation. I do not know if the board has consulted every organization, but it is very conceivable that the time element would not allow the officials of the board to hold conferences with various groups. The only reason they extended the crop year was on account of the wet weather, the rain that came during the last few weeks of that year. The farmers were not able to haul their grain during that time, so the crop year was extended for a few days to allow delivery in that year.
Then again we have heard the cry that this was done because it was an election year. Well, probably it was an election year; but surely we had no control over the rain, even if we did control certain things in the election.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


René Jutras: Yes, and the people had the final control of it; my hon. friend should know that. As a matter of fact the very members who levelled that criticism against the interim payment have stayed home from this parliament, with probably the one exception of a member who went to an urban seat to get elected.
Then I come to the next subject, that of farm storage. I shall not deal with it because there is another bill on that subject.
In conclusion let me say that in my humble opinion since this measure is designed in effect to replace the car order book, I do not believe it would help the problem in any way, shape or form. Indeed, there is a great possibility that it may make the condition worse. I do not suppose anyone would quarrel with the general principle of the bill, that of trying to obtain fair and equitable distribution. From my own personal experience, however, I would say that I know of no railway agent who has shown what my hon. friend has described as favouritism. All the ones I have known have tried to do the best they could in the circumstances, and they have done pretty well.
The railways have tried to distribute their box cars. Unfortunately, however, in the last two years, for one reason or another, I know in my own district the Canadian
Northern Affairs and National Resources Pacific Railway has to some extent fallen down on the job. I am sure they would have a very good explanation for having done so, but the fact remains that box cars have not been forthcoming from the C.P.R. to the same extent that they have been available from the Canadian National Railways, despite the fact that the two railways are close to each other. At one point only a few miles separate the two lines. Apparently they were committed beforehand last year, but I was surprised when they found themselves in the same predicament this year.
All in all, however, they have tried to make a fair allocation and have done their best to meet the situation. I think the answer should be left to the controller himself. Possibly he could look into the matter even more closely.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.
On motion of Mr. Jutras the debate was adjourned.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) for the second reading of Bill No. 6, respecting the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.
George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I think there has been ample indication of the general support of the measure before the house to leave no doubt that anything that may be said is simply to emphasize the belief of hon. members who speak that in all our minds there is a firm conviction that great days lie ahead in the development of the northland of this country of ours.
In presenting the bill now before us the Prime Minister gave some figures which indicate the vastness of the area that will be affected by that part of the activities of the department that is directed mainly to our northland. It is a challenging thought to realize that today we live in the third largest country in the world, and the largest country in the free world at this time. It is also a challenging thought to realize that
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Northern Affairs and National Resources such a large part of the 3,800,000 and more square miles that make up the area of Canada lies in the distant north.
There was a time when well-informed writers could speak of Canada as a whole as a land of ice and snow. Today, throughout the whole modern world the eyes and the thoughts and the hopes of many people are turned toward this country. Even yet many of us living in Canada are inclined to have that same thought of that vast northland. Nothing will ever change the fact that the true north, the far north, is bound to be a land of ice and snow for a considerable part of the year, but it can also be a land of great beauty and great attractiveness. It is a land of great opportunity, a land that beckons to the able and the vigorous and to people of all ages who still seek adventure and are prepared to put effort into that adventure which pays great rewards.
It is still difficult for us to visualize the distances that separate some parts of that great northland from our centres of population. Only in these past few days we have been learning of the plans that are being made for the removal of Aklavik and Coppermine on the Arctic coast to more secure sites. It does arouse the imagination of every Canadian to think that the distance from Edmonton, which we sometimes regard as one of our northern cities, to Aklavik is something over 1,200 miles straight north. That is not an area barren of opportunity, no matter how barren it may be in appearance.
I spoke for a moment this afternoon of being on the shores of Great Bear lake more than twenty years ago, just after the discovery of the first uranium mine in this country. At that same time I visited different parts of the Arctic coast during the brief period of the year which has twenty-four hours of daylight, and I can scarcely recall having seen more beautiful or more vivid flowers anywhere in Canada than I saw along the Arctic coast around the settled communities from Aklavik to Coppermine. It is a rugged country. It is a country that is certainly not meant for those who expect any easy return for their efforts, but it is a country that offers many possibilities to us and to future generations, with the modern devices which have now become available and have changed the whole way of life in that distant land.
As we now join in emphasizing our faith in the future of the Canadian north, in expressing our support for this measure, we might well recall those gallant young men who had so much to do with this new day that has


dawned in that great northland. There is no more romantic story in Canadian history, or perhaps in the history of any country, than the story of those young bush pilots who more than twenty years ago were carrying tremendous loads of freight into the uncharted settlements of the north, who were making possible those discoveries which have meant so much to us within these past few years and are going to mean so much to us in the years ahead. They carried every conceivable kind of supply that could be freighted. They carried machinery; they carried fuel; they carried the needs of those who were exploring for mining properties at that time.
It is a great story of courage, of achievement and of adventure, one that every young Canadian should know. Now that airfields, organized air routes and highways have been built right through to Alaska it is a very different picture. Most of us, perhaps all of us, will join with the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Simmons) in the hope that a road may be completed from Dawson that will connect with the Alaska highway and bring direct communication to that extremely encouraging part of our great northland.
I do raise one question in regard to this measure. I do so with the hope that it may be given consideration. I certainly have no intention of moving an amendment to the bill, because it is starting a department, which already exists substantially in the same form, on a new course, with greater emphasis on northern development. I should like to refer only to the fact that one of the subjects that is referred to this department and placed under its control is Eskimo affairs. Already the suggestion has been made that it is natural to place Eskimo affairs under one department and Indian affairs under another. I do not know whether I can entirely agree with that suggestion, although I appreciate the reasons that support it.
If there is one aspect of our collective responsibility as a society which should give us no feeling of satisfaction it is the plight today of more than 100,000 Indians in this country. No matter what the explanations may be, no matter how we may explain the position of the Indians under the ancient treaties which gave them their special position and certain protection and certain rights, I do not see how any person who believes in equality within this democracy of ours can be satisfied with the status of the Indians of this country at this time.
We have not succeeded in giving them the kind of equality that we say should be extended to people in other countries. I am

Northern Affairs and National Resources
not prepared to agree that there is any inherent weakness in the Indians that makes them incapable of development by proper education if that education is extended to them at the right time. I have seen the results of education among the Indians where that education was accorded in early childhood. I recall a most interesting experiment with which I had some association as minister of education in Ontario when we opened a modern, well-equipped school on the shore of James bay. There young Indians have been receiving the same kind of education as other children in Ontario, and the results demonstrate that a young Indian, given the same opportunity, even at a point in the fairly distant north, can absorb that education and benefit from it.
I realize all the difficulties presented by this problem. I realize that many of the Indians themselves feel that there is a certain measure of protection under these ancient treaties which they would not lightly abandon. To them their tribal customs are cherished traditions. Nevertheless we cannot be satisfied until in some way we have found a method by which every young Indian, wherever that is possible, is given a chance to obtain at least a satisfactory elementary education.
Having said that, I wish now to return to Eskimo affairs. There are a number of hon. members who have seen the Eskimos along the Arctic coast and elsewhere. Those who have will agree that they have never seen such a naturally happy people anywhere at any time. That is the most distinguishing characteristic of the Eskimo. They seem to find something to laugh or to smile about in every event of their very stern life. They are brave, they are courageous, they are energetic; they are a most attractive people.
We are not hampered in the plans that may be made for their advancement by any of these ancient arrangements which in some measure cannot be disregarded and under which the government of course must recognize its obligations. However, it does not seem to me that the reason is too clear why these two problems should be separated. Granted, a very large part of our Indian population is in the southern part of Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific. On the other hand, a considerable part of the population where the greatest problems arise in according equality of citizenship is in the northland where nomadic Indian tribes move about and present increasing difficulties by their very movement.
However, these people do come in contact with the Eskimo. As you travel through the Northwest Territories you pass from the land
occupied by the Indians immediately into the land occupied by the Eskimos. In years gone by they used to constantly fight each other. One of the famous spots on the Coppermine river running north into the Arctic is a place known as Bloody Falls near the town of Coppermine where a tremendous battle was fought years ago between the Eskimos and the Indian Dogrib tribe occupying that area.
Historic spots of that kind simply serve to emphasize that there are differences, that there are reasons for dealing with this subject in a way that recognizes the basic differences in the problem itself. Nevertheless it does seem to me that consideration might be given to the advantages that would be gained by bringing Indian affairs and Eskimo affairs together in the same department so that health experts, experts in the educational field and others, finding reasons to go into the northland to visit the Indians, could extend their" trips only a short distance further and visit the Eskimos. That would seem a reasonable economy of effort. It would seem also to suggest the possibilities of finding ideas that might be helpful in dealing with the affairs of these two native groups of people within our country.
I have indicated on many occasions in this house my own faith in the opportunities of the north; I hope that in some measure I demonstrated that faith on earlier occasions when I had some responsibility in regard to what we called the north, but which is really the south when we examine the great map of Canada.
Events of the past few years; new types of vehicles; the possibility of electric power; transportable diesel power, and certainly the development of uranium and fissionable energy which we are assured can become a reality in the near future, are things that call for the imagination, vision and faith of a people who have seen great developments take place but who live in a country which in terms of history is still very young. As we express our faith-we have every reason to repeat it over and over again-in Canada we have every reason to also express our faith in the great future of the northland which has been under discussion today.
I should like to think of the appeal to our imagination that came years ago in the poems of Robert W. Service, which made the distant north a land of romance to many of us. But Robert W. Service never left any doubt that it was a land that would be developed only by the hardy, the strong and the bold,
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Northern Affairs and National Resources and I am sure most members here, probably all, will remember those opening lines of the "Song of the Yukon":
This is the law ol the Yukon,
And ever she makes it plain:
Send not your foolish and feeble;
Send me your strong and your sane.
That was the beginning of a poem that pictured the challenge of the north and the great possibilities of the north which Robert W. Service saw so clearly so many years ago.
These lines I have just read apply with equal force to all that great north with its rewards in return for the effort that is made in building for the future. It can support a great population. It can make a great contribution to the future of Canada, and I am sure all of us agree with what has already been said about the advantage of extending more and more and as rapidly as possible a form of self-government comparable to that now shared by the provinces of that country. I am sure there will be members of this house, particularly the younger members who are with us now, who will see the time when a new province of Canada will emerge in that great northland.
It offers a challenge to every young Canadian, and I for one support this measure with the greatest enthusiasm in the hope that it will not merely be a change in the name of a department, but that with the introduction of this measure and with the aid of the minister who will guide its affairs every Canadian will be reminded that such a large part of this country still remains to be developed, and that the future of Canada will very largely be measured by what we do in the north.


Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, as the Mackenzie constituency extends to the Northwest Territories I would like to make some comment on the bill before the house, but before proceeding I would like to comment very briefly on the outstanding statement made at the United Nations this afternoon by President Eisenhower. As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) pointed out before dinner, this statement would indicate that this new department may become one of the very important departments of the Canadian government. I quote from this afternoon's press:
President Eisenhower called today on the world's atomic powers to reverse "the fearful trend" of the atomic arms race and to set up under the United Nations an international atomic energy agency to develop the peaceful potential of the atom. In a dramatic speech made against the [Mr. Drew.l

background of the Bermuda conference, the President declared "the Soviet union must, of course, be one" of the nations participating in any such project.
Then the President put forth these proposals:
First-Encourage world-wide investigation into the most effective peacetime uses of fissionable material;
Second-Begin to diminish the potential destructive power of the world's atomic stockpiles;
Third-Allow all peoples of all nations to see that, in this enlightened age, the great powers of the earth, those of the east and the west, are interested in human aspirations, first and foremost, rather than in building up the armaments of war;
Fourth-Open up a new channel for peaceful discussion and initiate at least a new approach to the many difficult problems that must be solved in both public and private conferences if the world is to shake off the inertia imposed by fear and make positive progress toward peace.
I believe, though I have not any information to support it, that Sir Winston Churchill should receive some credit for this important statement. When I was in London in October there was a good deal of gossip there to the effect that Sir Winston was more concerned about being remembered as helpful in saving the peace than he was in playing the important role that he did play during the second world war, and it had been suggested by his friends that he should go to the United Nations and make the sort of speech that President Eisenhower made this afternoon.
This suggestion apparently was not accepted but I feel that the discussions at the Bermuda conference will give people all over the world hope and confidence in our ability to resolve our differences peacefully. I think this statement made by the President should add some weight to the suggestion made by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Cameron) this afternoon that consideration should be given in Canada to setting up an authority similar to the TVA in the United States. With the great resources we have in the north country and the part uranium is likely to play in the future, I think favourable consideration should be given to this sort of proposal.
The dominion government already has a very large investment in the Eldorado Mining and Refining corporation, and I am sure much larger investments are going to be made in future. Like other members who have spoken in this debate I am very enthusiastic about the possibilities of the north country. The Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company has its offices in Manitoba, but the largest part of their underground operations are carried on in the province of Saskatchewan. The boundary between the two provinces runs right through this rich deposit. While we hear a great deal about:

the part free enterprise has played in the development of the country, and I would like to give credit to the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company, I think we should not lose sight of the fact that all of the people in Canada have a part in any great development.
When the ore was discovered a number of years ago it was recognized immediately as a very rich ore being composed of 3-2 per cent copper, 4-0 per cent zinc, 1-06 per cent silver and 0-075 ounces of gold. When this ore wTas discovered there was no known process that would enable any mining corporation in Canada or the United States to separate these valuable deposits, and it was here in Ottawa in the old department of mines and resources that civil servants worked out a process that later made it possible for the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company to proceed with this very large development. When the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) pleads on behalf of the retired civil servants I think we should remember that civil servants never stake a claim, are never able to invest large amounts in gold or uranium, but carry on a day to day work that must be done; and in doing this they discovered how copper, zinc, silver and gold could be separated.
I think the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company has as good a record as any large corporation in Canada. The fact that the provincial boundary runs right through their operations creates some border incidents from time to time. In Saskatchewan the workmen's compensation benefits are a good deal more attractive than in Manitoba. One story relates that a man started up a ladder which had its base in Manitoba and the top in Saskatchewan. He fell and landed partly in Manitoba and partly in Saskatchewan. His friends came to his rescue and brought him across the line, and he was therefore in Saskatchewan when the case was reported. On the whole, though, we are able to resolve these differences without any serious difficulty.
A subsidiary of this company, the Churchill River Power Company, Limited, has its operation entirely in Saskatchewan on the Churchill river. Island Falls is a company town, but if all company towns were like it I am sure there would not be too many criticisms levelled. Since I first started going to Island Falls some twelve or thirteen years ago all the old log houses have been replaced by attractive modern houses. I imagine they would cost from $12,000 to $15,000 if built in Ottawa. They are all electrically heated, and all have electric lights, frigidaires and electric ranges. The only two chimneys in
Northern Affairs and National Resources the town are for the fireplaces in the homes of the superintendent and the assistant superintendent. The schools are very well equipped. The teachers are paid higher salaries than teachers in the cities in the province, and the people who live at Island Falls have what would be considered a very high standard of living.
But as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) suggested, conditions for the Indian people living nearby are very different. The Indian village over at Sandy Bay is quite a different world, but I do not propose to discuss that tonight. However, I say that when the white man brings liquor to these Indian communities, and brings the knowhow for the making of illicit liquor, the rest of us have some responsibility for the very demoralizing influences that liquor has in these Indian communities.
Farther north in Saskatchewan, of course, we have these rich uranium deposits, and according to the information in the publication, "Saskatchewan, Its Resources and Industries", Saskatchewan uranium promises to place Canada on a par with the Belgian Congo as a source of atomic fuel.
There is one important section in the bill that has not been mentioned yet, that having to do with historic sites and monuments. While I think it is very important that we look to the future, we should not forget the past; and I am very glad the minister is to have this responsibility because I feel that with his imagination and energy he will give our historic places and monuments the attention that they deserve. When I travel over the northern part of my constituency by air with all the ease and pleasure of modem travel, I never forget that two and three hundred years ago people travelled through that country by very different methods.
I suggest to hon. members that they have a look at Kelsey's Papers which are available in the library. In 1689 Kelsey travelled over the northern part of my constituency when the going was very different. On the 2nd of July he made this note:
The same going as before at noon it raind hard having no shelter but y heavens for a cannope nor no wood to make a fire came dist twelve miles.
Of course there were other days when things were a little rosier. On the 28th of August he had good luck with geese, because his note reads;
Today about noon I went home w y Indian y came last night & carryed w us 19 geese.
That was quite a red letter day for Kelsey, because the whole of his travels from Hudson bay down as far as Touchwood on the plains was apparently a series of hardships. For
722	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources a number of years the national parks and historic sites service have had a good deal of trouble in getting enough money from governments of all complexions to do a worth-while job. I have had a report on the Fort Pelly situation. I have a letter from Colonel Childe, superintendent of the historic parks and sites branch, written on the 27th November, 1953. I am sure the material will be of interest to hon. members. He says:
Some thirty years ago we had considerable correspondence with the Hudson's Bay Company regarding the five acre plot on which the remains of Fort Pelly then stood. The company offered to sell this property to the department for the sum of $1,125-
When one considers the price the Hudson's Bay Company paid for the millions of acres they got it is pretty hard to understand why they put a price of $1,125 on the five acres representing the old site of Fort Pelly. I continue:
-later reduced to $750, and finally to $500, but the historic sites and monuments board of Canada decided that the latter figure was still too high, and the matter was dropped. This five acre plot was acquired later by the Pelly ladies homemakers club.
You will remember that you brought to the attention of the then deputy minister of mines and resources in August, 1949, a letter you had received from Mr. Lome M. Brandon, stating that the Pelly ladies homemakers club had decided to sell this property back to the original owner, as a result of which the matter was referred to the historic sites and monuments board at its meeting in 1950. The board deferred action to its 1951 meeting, in order to enable the Saskatchewan representative, Mr. Gregory, to make further investigation. Unfortunately, Mr. Gregory was forced by ill health to resign from the board, and his successor, Mr. Campbell Innes, who had just been appointed, was not in a position at the 1951 meeting to make a report, so the matter was again deferred. At its 1952 meeting the board again deferred its recommendation for further study, but in June, 1952, we were advised that the recently formed Fort Pelly historical society had purchased this five acre plot and offered it free to the government of Canada as a national historic site.
At its meeting in May, 1953, the board declared the site of Fort Pelly to be of national historic importance and recommended that the department accept the gift of the five acre plot of land on which the fort stood. Subsequently, we requested the surveyor general to arrange for a survey and to supply a copy of the survey plan and legal description of the site.
I am very happy to see that this transaction has been completed. I should mention that up in that area they have a very active historical society, and I am sure the minister will be interested in knowing that a paper like the Canora Courier, for example, carried three important articles of special historic interest in its issue of November 19. One is a letter from Fort Ellice to Fort Pelly written in 1864 by a W. McKay. Another is a report
IMr. Nicholson.]

of the annual meeting of the Fort Pelly historical society which contains the following:
With its membership of 93, the society is the largest historical society in Saskatchewan, said President Wylie in his opening remarks.
As I said, I think hon. members should be interested in the fact that at a time when the Hudson's Bay Company, which really should have been interested in having this spot developed as a historic site, was holding out for $1,125, then $750, and finally $500, we had a group of public-spirited citizens who on their own account raised money to buy the property so they could make a gift of it to the crown, and I say we should at least be able to find some funds to help to restore this old establishment. I hope the minister will accept an invitation from me at this point to visit the Fort Pelly historical society when he is making his tour across Canada in connection with his duties, so that he may be able to see some of the most interesting places in that area.
Another story in the newspaper to which I have referred tells about mine detectors being used in the Fort Pelly area with the result that two sites were located where posts are said to have been built. The article reads in part as follows:
Marlboro house was built in 1793 and old records show that Belleau's outpost was in existence during the trading season 1795-6.
My forebears went up to Queen's Bush in Bruce county about one hundred years ago.
I should like hon. members to recall that in the new north years before, between 1793 and 1795, there was a great deal of activity. Quite near Fort Pelly is found Fort Livingstone. The federal government, I am happy to say, has erected a plaque there which says:
Fort Livingstone First Capital of the
North-West Territories.
Here Lieutenant Governor Laird and his Council were sworn into office ' on 27th November, 1876, and here, on 8th March, 1877, was held the first session of the North-West Council.
Mrs. Gertrude S. Telford, now of Regina, did an interesting study for McMaster University when she was living in Pelly some years ago. She has this to say about Fort Livingstone:
In 1873 the site of Fort Livingstone (named for the great missionary who died that year) was chosen as the seat of government for the Northwest Territories and as headquarters for the newly-formed North-West Mounted Police.
In 1874 the contract for buildings was let to Hugh Sutherland who, with a gang of eighty to

one hundred men, began work on the site selected, September 1874. October 21 the same year the police arrived under the command of Colonel French who was dismayed to see the nature of the site chosen.
Apparently even in those days the people who were responsible made mistakes in selecting sites. Colonel French wrote in his diary as follows:
To my horror I found the barracks in course of construction on the top of a hill covered with large granite boulders, no trees to protect the buildings and these latter strung out in a line of a thousand feet long, exposing a full broadside to the north, the ground burned up to within 20 feet of the barracks. Still worse half the hay cut had been burned, the Hudson's Bay Company from whom we might have purchased losing 300 loads.
General Steele described the place as follows:
The Swan river barracks (Fort Livingstone) were built on a most extraordinary spot. How on earth any person in his senses could have selected it is difficult to imagine. The surface of the ground was covered with boulders and before space could be cleared to enable the men to form properly on parade we had to build large fires over the rocks and then pour water over them when hot to split them. Moreover the place was alive with snakes which were sometimes found even in the barrack rooms.
I suggest that before the minister visits the site of Fort Livingstone he should get a model A Ford, if possible, because the road is a hazardous one. There are so many good sites in the area it is difficult to imagine why this particular site was chosen. It may have been a good place for horses, but it is quite hazardous for one travelling in a modern car. I hope the new department will be able to find ways and means of making it possible to get into the old site safely because it is a lovely location overlooking the Swan river.
In conclusion may I say that I am sure the minister, who has many years of service ahead, will be bringing imagination to this important post. I am happy that he has agreed to meet the Saskatchewan minister of highways on the 15th to discuss the important question of building roads in the north. I think it is quite obvious that, in view of the potential wealth in the north, federal funds should be made available for road construction in that area.
I appreciate the fact that the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Harris) has been able to make an arrangement with the Saskatchewan government for fuller cooperation. Shortly before this session opened I was in the school at Pelican Narrows where a new arrangement is being worked out for the first time. There I saw the children of treaty Indians, metis, and white children studying together in a two-room school. The minister, as the one in charge of the Indians,
Northern Affairs and National Resources signed an agreement with the Saskatchewan minister of education to provide joint-educational services	to make	this experimentpossible. I am	sure	that	what has	been
achieved in the field of education can be achieved in other fields.
I express the hope that the minister will live to see this become one of the very important departments of government, with ample resources available to embark on a program such as the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Cameron) suggested this afternoon when he	said	that	we might	have
publicly-owned utilities to harness the great resources of the north.


Mr. Solon E. Low (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, I listened with very great interest to what the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) had to say this afternoon. I was particularly interested in hearing him say that the bill now before us	not	only	provides a	new
name for the present Department of Resources and Development, but it also indicates a shift in emphasis. I believe he said also that with the introduction of this bill he was indicating to the people of Canada that the centre of gravity in the department concerned is being moved north.
Now, because of that shift in emphasis and the fact that the centre of gravity of the department is being shifted to the north, those of us whose constituencies border on that great northland are perhaps a bit more interested in what is going to happen than those who are living farther away. I would judge that those of us who come from constituencies in the far north will have ideas to express to the Prime Minister and to the minister of the new department in the course of this debate tonight.
While it is quite clear, I think, that the great northland is a land of tremendous wealth my experience with it-and I have been travelling into the north country for about seventeen or eighteen years-would indicate that the resources are many in variety. They are resources that need developing. When they are developed they will contribute greatly to the strength of Canada as a whole. I am hoping also that they will receive the kind of development which will promote the well-being of the people who live in the area, as well as the people of Canada as whole. Of course that will depend on the manner in which they are developed.
I am directing my remarks more particularly now to the young man who is to be the new minister of northern affairs and national resources. I represent a constituency that borders on the Northwest Territories,
724	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources and I know something about the resources of that great area. I hope the minister's department will not follow the pattern that has been followed so often in the past in developing natural resources, the pattern associated with the granting of large blocks of resources to certain interests by deed of gift. Then they say to those people who receive these deeds, "All we expect of you is development; if you give employment to our people that is all we expect of you".
So far as I am concerned I think that is the wrong kind of development, and I would not suggest that the minister is even thinking in those terms; at least I should hope not. There is another way of securing the development of these vast resources of the north country. I think the federal government should keep title to all the resources in that 40 per cent of Canada's total area, and should never part with them under any circumstances. Having the title to those resources vested in the federal government is in my judgment the best insurance that the development will be orderly and in the interests of all the people of Canada. We have proved that method of development in the province from which I come. Ever since 1935 our program has been one of development under private enterprise, but with the government retaining possession of the resources and not parting with them under any circumstances.
In my judgment that is the only way we can be sure the development will be orderly and in the interests of the people. It is the only way, to my mind, whereby conditions can be laid down by the owners and regulations applied by the owners to see that the development is done according to rules.
I do not mean by this that it is necessary for the government to enter into developmental work. Quite frankly I am of the opposite opinion. I think there is good opportunity for private enterprise to be directed into the area and given every incentive to develop resources on behalf of the people of Canada so that, under a system of leases, rentals and royalties, the people of this country can profit in dollars and cents as well as in the strength that will be added to this great country of ours.
So I say I am hoping the minister will study very carefully means by which he can keep his fingers on the development of those resources and see that they do not get out of hand; and, moreover, so he can ensure that there will be forthcoming to the treasury of Canada some income that will make it possible for the people of this country to enjoy the benefits of their resources. That is the position we have always taken, a position that is not at all new to this group.


I wish to say something about the strategic importance of the territories. Not only is it a land of great wealth and of tremendous possibilities, a land holding great attractions for the young people, but it is also a land of great strategic importance to the whole of the North American continent. Whoever controls the great northland-and I refer to control of all the territory and all the strategic places therein-will to a great extent control the whole of the continent of North America. For that reason we should be very careful how we enter upon the development of the Northwest Territories.
I think one of the great need's today is for transportation and communication facilities, as was outlined by my colleague from Cariboo (Mr. Leboe) this afternoon. I might point out that one of the very few connections with the Northwest Territories passes north and south through the northern part of the Peace River constituency which I have the honour to represent in the house. That highway begins at the town of Grknshaw on the Northern Alberta Railways and snakes its way northward through more than 200 miles of excellent farmland and forests and bushland to Hay River and Great Slave lake, which lies just across the northern boundary of Alberta in the territories.
This 200 miles of highway through the territory runs through an area that is fairly flat and presents no real problem whatsoever to highway or railway building. The present highway was built or thrust into that Hay River area across the border of the territories about 16 years ago by the combined efforts of the federal government and the government of Alberta.
Seventeen years ago, the year before the highway was started, there was only a winter trail for tractor trains passing through much of that 200 miles between Grimshaw and Hay River. Now the road is a well-travelled highway with a gravel surface; and over that highway a very large tonnage of heavy machinery and materials is carried every year into the great northern territory to help in the development of that area.
There are only two other means of transportation. Before the highway was thrust into the country 17 years ago there was heavy traffic on the Peace river itself, by boat and barge. I believe it was the Northern Transportation Company as well as the Hudson's Bay Company which operated barges on regular schedule into the north country. They hauled huge tonnages in and hauled the produce of the farmers out. I am referring to the farmers in the area around Fort Vermilion and the territory along the river.

However, that was a slow means of transportation, and during the winter months it could not be used. As a consequence air traffic became important. But in that area, Mr. Speaker, we are lacking in airport facilities. We need them in the worst way. Up to this time a heavy air traffic has been conducted largely by bush pilots who engage upon what they call hedge-hopping expeditions. In that area we do need airport facilities in the worst way, well developed facilities.
Then the country needs a railway. I have said that the land between Grimshaw and Hay River, which is not very far from Great Slave lake, is flat country in which there would be no real problem in connection with building a highway or a railway. It would seem to me an important project to build a railway in that area so as to link up the territory, not only to facilitate strategic development but also to develop the resources. Huge tonnages of very valuable metals are now coming out, but they have to be brought out in the most expensive way. I feel certain that in the next few years we are going to see the need multiplied many times over and a railway going into that territory. It is quite possible that it would not be a very expensive project.
The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) has made a plea on behalf of the Eskimo. I suppose he did so chiefly because he noted from the section in the bill that Eskimo affairs are to be attached to the new department. I listened with great interest to what he had to say, and was in agreement with him. He suggested the Eskimo might react to education just as many Indians have, and that the very best educational facilities should be made available. However, I am not forgetting some of the things that were done among the Eskimos up in Alaska not so many years ago, when the United States government was prevailed upon to do some work there. They sent so-called experts into the Eskimo country. These experts were supposed to civilize the Eskimos, and I may say that there were some tragic results.
For the benefit of the young minister and any others in the house who may be thinking in terms of the superiority of the white man in the matter of knowledge, understanding and education, I shall point out one or two of them. Everyone knows that for many years the Eskimos have been skilful workers in ivory. They used primitive tools and instruments to do their carving. Though the work was slow, they persisted in it, and did a remarkably fine and artistic job. Very often the ivory products commanded high prices and returns. However, when the United States experts went up into the
Northern Affairs and National Resources Eskimo land to educate those people, they got them to come into certain centres of population and proceeded to teach them how to use electric styluses in the work of carving out their ivory trinkets and statues and that sort of thing, and then sent them with their new-found knowledge back to isolated igloos, hundreds of miles in many cases from any electric outlet, and expected they would be able to use their new knowledge. Of course it does not work out that way.
They found, as they went up amongst the Eskimos, that the practice had been for many, many years for the mothers to nurse their babies until they were about six years old. That was a practice unheard of amongst white people, to have a child up to six years of age nursing, so they undertook to teach the barbarians that it was not wise to follow this barbaric habit; that those youngsters should be taught to eat by themselves while they were yet young. So those enlightened nurses from the United States got the mothers to wean the babies when they were nine months or a year old. The consequence was that the children never developed any teeth. The reason was quite obvious. The only source of calcium on which the children could draw to produce teeth in their mouths was from the mothers' milk, and until the children were about six years of age they did not have a full set of fine baby teeth. The consequence of new enlightenment being spread amongst them was that instead of helping the barbarians of the north, they were enlightening them to their detriment.
In the course of educating these people we ought to take into consideration the possibility that maybe they can teach us a great many things. Another thing that comes to my mind is this, and this was given to me by one of the head physicians sent by the United States government up into the Eskimo land to help to civilize those people. He said the Eskimo have been habitual users of the contents of the stomachs of the musk-ox and the reindeer. It was their salad and the only salad that they ever had, because these animals go about cropping the buds and the little green shoots of the trees and the bushes.
But that was supposed to be a very bad habit; it was dirty; it was unsanitary, said the medical people who went up there as teachers, and they must not do that. The thing to do was to gather your own salad, though there are times in the winter when the Eskimo could not possibly gather these things. However, they took the advice of those who went in there to teach them and stopped using the contents of the stomachs of the musk-ox and the reindeer. The result was
726	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources that various, serious diseases developed amongst them and many of them were wiped out.
Oftentimes that is the kind of thing we do in our efforts to be helpful to what we think are primitive people. In our enlightened efforts to help the Eskimo we often impose upon them a lot of foolish ideas. What we should be doing up in that country is teaching the Eskimo to make the wisest possible use of the things that are at hand in their own land, and then we should learn from them how to live in that north country. They have survived in that country over many, many decades, and have survived well.
I think a word of warning of that kind is quite justified. I do not want to lengthen the debate, Mr. Speaker, but I want to tell the young minister that I am glad to see a young and vigorous Canadian in charge of the department of northern affairs and national resources. I hope he will accept the invitation of the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Simmons) and visit the area. I invite him at that time to drive with me over the Grimshaw-Slave lake highway in the north and on to see the hon. member for Yukon.
I would like to go with him. I would like first to drive in through the entrance, the gateway to the great north country, the Hay river and Great Slave lake area. I would like him to enjoy the matchless hospitality of those northern pioneer people. He will never experience anything like it elsewhere in this great country. I would like him also to get a little bit bushed. You know, people get that way up in the north country. They get bushed, meaning they get so attached to the country and what it has to offer that they want to come back and see it often. I want him to enjoy the friendliness of the people up in that territory and see what it has to offer.
I would not suggest, however, that he take his wife along. I will tell him what happened to one family. A chap took his wife along on a nice trip up in that territory. I tell the minister there is something about the area.
I do not know whether it is the moonbeams or the night air or what, but it was not long after that young couple came back to Ottawa that they had a fine, bouncing baby boy. I do not know anything else to blame it on but the north country. I do suggest, however, that he accept our invitation.
I want to assure the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) tonight that I certainly wholeheartedly support the principle of this bill.
It is a step in the right direction. It marks a milestone in the history of the development of that great north country, which is a young man's country.


Mr. G. D. Weaver (Churchill):: Mr. Speaker, even though this is a subject that is very dear to my heart I do not expect to take a great deal of time tonight. But I must on this occasion say how pleased I am to see the name of the Department of Resources and Development being changed to the department of northern affairs and national resources. It shows that the government is awake to these great resources, and that adequate development will take place not in the distant future but in the future that is not as far away as some of us might think.
One of the reasons I rise tonight is to correct something the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) said. In speaking of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company he said that their process had been worked out here in Ottawa. Far be it from me to take anything away from the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys in Ottawa, but credit must be given where credit is due. This is one process that was worked out by private industry. It was worked out not in this country at all but somewhere in the vicinity of Arizona. Many tons of ore from the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company were shipped by rail down to a university in Utah or in Arizona, and the process was worked out at that time.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Will the hon. member say who worked out the process?


George Dyer Weaver: The name most commonly connected with it is that of a Professor Cool-baugh.
Many hon. members in the house have heard me speak before of the great size of Canada. In fact I once said that I wished there was a map of Canada in this chamber so that when we were speaking of Canada we could always have it before our eyes. Just to give the house some idea, it takes two days and nights to travel by rail from Winnipeg north to Churchill. That is longer than it takes to travel from Winnipeg to Ottawa. Some two years ago many hon. members of this house visited Churchill, and they will probably be surprised to know that they would still have to travel 75 miles farther north before coming to that part of Canada which we have been speaking about this evening.
The Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) mentioned the Pre-Cambrian shield which runs in a northwesterly direction taking in a large pant 'of Manitoba, part of Saskatchewan, a corner of Alberta and all the area of the Northwest Territories. Most of our great mines have been found not too far distant from where this Pre-Cambrian shield emerges from the parklands of the western

prairies. I have often called the route running parallel to the Pre-Cambrian shield the Main street of the Canadian future.
If you look at a globe you will see that the shortest distance from Alaska to the industrial east is along this Main street, coming out at Winnipeg and then going southeast and east. Earlier I mentioned in this chamber that the railroad which now ends at Lynn Lake and which roughly parallels this Main street is in a good location to be continued to serve the area about which we have been speaking.
Shortly after I mentioned that, the president of the Canadian Pacific Air Lines said he thought that route would eventually be built, but it would be flown by C.P.A. long before that. I hope it will not be too long before they have an opportunity to fly that route.
At the present time conditions in the world are such that we have not the funds available to develop these resources in the way we would like to see them developed. However, I hope the world situation will clear up in time for us to see that great country opened up and developed in the way all Canadians want to see it done.
1 was very happy to hear the words of the Prime Minister this afternoon. I would commend his address to some of the provincial governments in connection with the development of their own resources. There is much that they could take from that address. I want to wish the new minister well in bringing about this development. He has a great responsibility, but I know he will be able to carry it out as we would like to see him do.


Mr. M. A. Hardie (Mackenzie River):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) for introducing this bill, which places great importance and emphasis upon northern development. lit is evident that he realizes the great and growing importance of our northland, and especially the urgent need of accelerated government participation in the affairs of the constituency which I have the honour (to represent in this house.
I wish also to congratulate the minister on his appointment to this department, and I am confident he will administer the affairs of the north effectively and diligently and while doing so will have regard to the great responsibility of this government toward the opening up of an area that has an enormous potential in mineral wealth, water power, and oil resources.
Northern Affairs and National Resources
While I am in a congratulating mood I wish also to take this opportunity to thank the government for providing a separate constituency for the Mackenzie River district; and to give credit where credit is due, we of Mackenzie River wish to thank my colleague, the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Simmons), for his assistance in this regard during the last parliament.
The Mackenzie district of the Northwest Territories lies between the northern boundaries of British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan on the south and the Arctic ocean on the north, and from the Yukon boundary on the west to the 102nd parallel on the east, a total area of 527,000 square miles. A large portion of this area lies within the PreCambrian shield and contains such famous gold mines as Giant Yellowknife and Rycon within the confines of the Yellowknife district, and the Consolidated Discovery mine in the Giauque. lake area.
You all know of the large part played by Eldorado Mining and Refining, situated on Great Bear lake, in the production of uranium which has played such an important part in the destiny not only of Canada but of the free world. Also within the district of Mackenzie River there are known deposits of lead and zinc at Pine Point, and on the east arm of Great Slave lake there is a uranium potential in that area which lies between Fort Rae and Port Radium, and between the east arm of Great Slave lake and lake Athabasca where Eldorado Mining and Refining are developing their second uranium find. There are also great copper deposits along the Arctic rim which some day will prove of great economic importance to the north and Canada in general. These deposits have been known for some time but the lack of transportation and hydroelectric facilities has hindered their development.
At this time I should like to suggest to the government that consideration be given to the extension of the railroad from Lynn Lake, Manitoba, in a northwesterly direction to the north shore of lake Athabasca, to the uranium fields now being developed by the crown-owned company, Eldorado Mining and Refining, Gunnar Gold and many other companies which have spent considerable money in opening up this vast area, thence northwesterly from that point to Pine Point where there are great lead and zinc deposits which have been explored and developed by Consolidated Mining and Smelting, and thence southerly to Grimshaw, Alberta to connect with our present system of railroads in Canada.
728	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources
It is gratifying to note that the minister is charged also with the responsibility of coordinating the activities of the several departments of government in relation to northern affairs. In this connection I would respectfully suggest to the minister that consideration be given to the construction of a chain of airports throughout the north which will provide for the defence of the continent as well as the economic development of the north.
The house will be interested to learn that up to date there have been 500 oil and gas permits covering 25 million acres issued by the Department of Resources and Development.
It is also interesting to note that this bill enables a far more active part to be taken by the government in the welfare of the Eskimo people. These people, who have been called primitive and uncivilized by some writers, have intellectual and physical capabilities which in my opinion could be cultivated and put to the service of Canada, particularly in the defence of our far north. Who knows the Arctic better and who can stand its rigorous conditions better than the Eskimos? In my opinion the Eskimos would make an ideal ground defence force in the event of invasion from the north.
Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to take up any more of the time of this house, but I hope to deal with more of the problems of my constituency when this bill reaches the committee stage.


George Prudham: Mr. Speaker, hon. members will be interested to learn that the map division of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys is at present working on a new large-scale map of Canada to replace the map that formerly hung in the railway committee room. This new map will show Canada from the United States border to the north pole and in an up to date manner will show the many new developments and the mineral prospects that were never even thought of when the first map was produced.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Applewhaite in the chair.
On section 1 -Short title.
Mr. Green:: One of the most interesting prospects for the development of northern Canada appears to be the use of the waters of the Yukon river for the production of electricity. We hear reports from time to time as to potential developments, but I wonder if the Prime Minister or the minister who is to be in charge of this department


will tell us what the situation is at the present time. For example, there is apparently the question of whether Canada has a seaport which could be used. I do not know whether there is any such port available on the northwest coast, but I am sure members of the committee will be interested in learning the latest information with regard to these proposed developments.
The former Minister of Resources and Development told us about a year ago that surveys were to be made, presumably during last summer, by the people who were interested in this development. Has that been done, and just what is the situation at the present time?


Mr. Lesage:: Surveys were made last summer, and I have been visited by the interested parties who are making these surveys. Two weeks ago they reported their views to me about the prospects of the development in regard to the headwaters of the Yukon river, that is north of British Columbia and in the southern part of the Yukon. They believe that about 4,500,000 horsepower can be developed there, as the hon. member for York West mentioned this afternoon, but their survey is still incomplete.
If I might just clarify the situation, on December 29, 1952, there was issued through the water resources division of the Department of Resources and Development to Quebec Metallurgical Industries Limited, a subsidiary of Frobisher Limited, a survey permit which authorizes entry of the company and its agents upon all lands in Yukon Territory within the drainage basins of the Alsek river, the Yukon river above and including the Teslin river and the Donjek river above a point ten miles below its junction with the Kluane river.
The company I was told is interested in the step by step development in Canada of the estimated potential of approximately 4J or 5 million horsepower involved on these rivers, and officers of the department, especially of the water resources division, together with the deputy minister and myself, are following developments very, very closely.


Howard Charles Green: What about a potential site
for the power plant and seaport?


Jean Lesage: That is still under survey, but it is felt that the power site when chosen should not be too far from the Pacific ocean. The possibilities of the Taku river are under careful study.


Howard Charles Green: Would there be a seaport, if
that site was chosen on the Taku river, open to ocean shipping?


Jean Lesage: It is difficult for me to say
at this stage, since that port project is still under study and survey.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any thought of
negotiating with the United States for the use of an American seaport?


Jean Lesage: The Prime Minister made the policy of the government on that point quite clear this afternoon.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: No negotiations have
been instituted for the acquisition of United States territory on which would be installed power houses for Canadian purposes. We have not yet come to the conclusion that we would need any concession on American territory to make use of this water power, but these surveys have not been completed and we have not had any engineering reports as to what might be a good site that would be accessible to ocean traffic for a power development.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Just in reply to the Prime Minister, may I say that I had information yesterday that no United States territory would be needed for either the power development or the smelter.


Mr.   Si. Laureni@: I hope the surveys and engineering studies that are being made will confirm the impression we have that we will not need any concession from our neighbours to make use of our own resources.


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra has brought into the discussion the matter of power development. I think hon. members will agree with me that in the particular age in which we are living, a very scientific age and one in which a good deal of industrial expansion is going on, the matter of power development is extremely important. With the north country opening up, and with the minister giving some special attention to the development of the north country, this becomes very important by reason of the fact that in that country we have vast rivers and streams and great possibilities so far as power development is concerned.
But I should like to venture this suggestion to the minister. It does occur to me, and perhaps it is the old question of the chicken and the egg, that it is a case of whether population follows development or whether development follows population. It seems to me that we must give consideration to that particular point. We know that the north country is rich in natural resources, but so are other areas of the country where people have already settled rich in natural resources. Yet by very reason of these riches many of these natural resources are still left in the ground.
Northern Affairs and National Resources
I remember talking some time ago to an official of one of our largest coal mining companies. He pointed to a large map of the province of Alberta and the Northwest Territories on the wall. He pointed to the eastern slope of the Rocky mountains and the foothills. He said, "Mr. Hansell, in these hills all the way up to this northern part there are so many millions"-he may have said billions; I do not know-"of tons of coal". He said this coal was capable of taking care of a population of anywhere from 30 to 50 million people for many generations to come. The coal is there. There are less than a million people in Alberta to whom coal is supplied. Yet the coal mining industry there is pretty well going bankrupt. It is on its last legs because of the development of the diesel engine and because of the vast quantities of oil and gas that have been found there.
I am sure we are all in favour of the bill. I am sure we are all desirous of having the north country opened up, but it takes money and population to do so. I happen to have on my desk some printed matter which refers to an article in a publication known as Monogram, which I believe is put out by the Canadian General Electric Company. The article is written by J. L. McKeever, manager of the engineering apparatus division of that company. He refers to the St. Lawrence project and other developments in Canada, and I want to read a squib or two from his article. He says:
First, there is the problem of transmission of large blocks of power. So far in North America, 300 miles is about the longest transmission distance. However, in Sweden lines have greatly exceeded this length.
We may be able to have a great power development in the north, but it will cost a tremendous amount of money to put high tension wires through to the places where industry may see fit to invest its millions. Later he goes on to say:
. . . in special cases, where being near to power sources is more important than being near markets and materials, we may have to bring industry and population to the source of power. This was the case with the development of the tremendous aluminum industry in the Arvida region of Quebec, and it continues with the Kitimat development in British Columbia and the projected giant power scheme in the Yukon.
Then there is this little squib from the same article:
Whatever happens, it is imperative that if Canadian industry continues to expand at its present rate, our power generation must keep pace. This power will be obtained from whatever sources are most economical and feasible at the time.


Mr. Gillis:: Will free enterprise develop that for you?
730	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources


Ernest George Hansell: I am always glad to have these interjections about free enterprise.


Clarence Gillis: It makes a new speech for you.


Ernest George Hansell: If the northern part of Canada can be developed by private enterprise as other parts of Canada have already been developed by private enterprise then, believe me, it will be developed.


Clarence Gillis: You know that is a lot of nonsense.


Ernest George Hansell: I am going to say this in answer-


Clarence Gillis: Would Canada Packers go up there and build these railroads?


Ernest George Hansell: -to the hon. member. I am quite certain that if the people of Canada are to be bled to death by taxation to put billions of dollars in the development of that country they are not going to stand for it. Take, for instance, the oil industry. We were discussing that the other day when dealing with the matter of pipe lines. Billions of dollars have been put into the development of oil. Do you believe the people of Canada-


The Chairman:: Order. It is very hard to define relevancy in this particular debate, but I do feel that the hon. member is dealing with something which we dealt with a few days ago, and that should not be permissible.


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Chairman, I agree with you it is not in order in this debate to deal with private enterprise versus socialism-


Clarence Gillis: A little far-fetched, though.


Ernest George Hansell: But when somebody-


Clarence Gillis: You cannot answer it.


Ernest George Hansell: -jabs you with a question 'of that kind-


Clarence Gillis: And you cannot answer it.


Ernest George Hansell: -and it goes on Hansard without an answer, and then I send out Hansards, at least copies of those containing my speeches-


James Joseph McCann: Free?


Ernest George Hansell: -at least I frank them, anyway, and people read a jab like that when Hansell has no answer to it-


Clarence Gillis: And still has none.


Ernest George Hansell: I ask the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) if he is upholding the Russian method of development.


Clarence Gillis: I think that is a statement which should be taken off the record. If the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low) is making

an interjection through his deputy leader as to whether I am upholding the Russian method of development of our natural resources and he wants to get up and ask me that question, I shall answer it for him.
I think the interjection as put on the record by the hon. member is unworthy of a man of his calling. He is a minister of the church, you know-no innuendoes.


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Chairman, in the first place a member of the house should not interject without asking permission. Since the hon. member interjected, I simply answered the question.


Clarence Gillis: That applies to your leader, then.


Ernest George Hansell: All I would say is that in my belief communism-


William Alfred Robinson: Order. I really believe the hon. member who has the floor should address himself to clause 1 of the bill we are now discussing, and then he will not invite the interjections which are being made.


Ernest George Hansell: I move then, Mr. Chairman, by some sort of mental transportation from Russia to the northwest part of Canada.


Mr. Dickey:: Stay in Russia.


Clarence Gillis: Stay in Russia; you are using their tactics.


Ernest George Hansell: In connection with this matter of the development of the north and the necessity for population, I should like to ask the government a question. It might be in order on this bill, or if it is not they can answer it some other time. Over the last few years there has been quite an influx of people from other countries who are desirous of carving out a destiny for themselves in this country. I am inclined to think that perhaps they are not going to the parts of Canada which we are desirous of developing, such as the north. It may be that they are, but I should like to know if the government has any information on that subject.
My impression is that these people go to our farms and perhaps remain there for a short time, then become absorbed in industry and in our cities. I am not against that, particularly. Perhaps that is their own business, but I should like to know if they eventually find their way to new areas which require development. It is very important that we have a population in these northland areas that are still underdeveloped. With a population, we must again look forward to having railroads, highways, telephones, telegraphs. air transoortation facilities and so forth.
nvir. Gillis.1


Mervyn Arthur Hardie: The hon. member for Macleod has surprised me very much this evening, particularly after listening to the premier of Alberta and the premier of British Columbia a few months ago in their attempted marriage to the Northwest Territories. The hon. member is worried about spending money. He is worried about the population of the north. I should like to tell the hon. member that in Yellowknife in gold mines we have Italians, Czechoslovaks, people of Russian descent, people of German descent; we have them all.
Coming back to the egg and the hen, I think it is the responsibility of this government, not of the Social Credit government of Alberta or British Columbia, to look after the development of the north. When the government does take that initiative, I think people will gladly go to that section. I think they will have plenty of opportunity to stay there and make their living there.
After listening to the Prime Minister and the other members of this house, I do not think the hon. member for Macleod needs to worry about the chicken or the egg. Today the government have told us they are interested in the north. Perhaps the hon. member for Macleod knows more about the north than the people who live there. We in the north are very happy to see the government's interest in us. We feel that all these problems will be looked after in the course of time.


Ernest George Hansell: I can assure the hon. gentleman that I am not worried a bit. Whether or not I wear a worried look on my face I do not know. If I do, I cannot help it. I was just born that way. I assure the hon. member I am not worried about chickens or about eggs-


Douglas Charles Abbott: Order, order.


William Alfred Robinson: Order. Will the hon. member please address himself to clause 1?


Ernest George Hansell: Yes, I will, and I am addressing myself to it. I agree with the hon. member exactly. I enjoyed the Prime Minister's speech. I want the north to develop. I want money put in there. I want people to go there. I am not opposing the bill. All I say is that if it is to be developed properly you must be able to get the natural resources out and you must be able to get people in, and that requires railways, highways and communications.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
On section 5-Duties, powers and functions.
Northern Affairs and National Resources
Mr. Hahn:: The particular point in this
section which interests me relates to tourist information. A short while ago some reference was made to the fact that we did not want the Northwest Territories developed. I do not think very many in this house feel that way at all. I am sure the hon. member for Macleod does not feel that way. However, there is a particular point here that is of interest to each and every Canadian citizen in the south. We have a very large tourist traffic that should be given consideration by this government.
I refer specifically to a business that netted Canada approximately $12 million last year. We in the southwestern part of British Columbia have a very fine port of entry at Douglas, but we find that one of the poorest features happens to be that there is no tourist bureau there which can give information either about the northern part of British Columbia or, in fact, any other part. Let me tell you that thousands of people come from the United States on any holiday in that country. I happen to have a store on the trans-Canada highway, and I know that on one of those holidays there was a line-up of cars for 14 miles coming into the city of New Westminster from the United States.
Most of those were United States cars. Those people had come to Canada to see the features of our country in which they would be interested. I find in talking to these visitors from day to day that they say they do not know where to go. I suggest to the minister of this new department that he might arrange to place one of the red-coated members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in that area, one who would know something about our great northland, our hunting and fishing, and could recommend places to go. That would be a very important factor so far as we are concerned. We know we are missing millions of dollars because those who are visiting us do not know what can be done if they enter our country as tourists.
I suggest further that this same tourist information bureau could give publicity to a national dish for each province. In the case of British Columbia it might be barbecued salmon. And let me tell you that you have not tasted anything until you have tasted barbecued salmon. Such a publicity feature could do the same thing for each part of Canada, including the northern section. I feel that by doing this we would create more interest in the minds of people living to the south of us, who are only too happy to come here and spend their money.


Mr. Zaplilny:: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to hold up the progress of the bill, but I notice that it refers to historic places and
732	HOUSE OF
Northern Affairs and National Resources monuments. I am wondering if this would cover the international peace garden which is on the southern border between Manitoba and the United States.


Jean Lesage: The annual grant to the
international peace garden is given now through the Department of Resources and Development. There will not be any change; it will come under the new department.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: Then, Mr. Chairman, I
should like to place on record a resolution coming from one of the chambers of commerce. I have no doubt some other hon. members know something about this. Hon. members are familiar with the international peace garden-


Douglas Charles Abbott: Discuss it on the estimates.


William Alfred Robinson: I suggest to the hon. member that the proper time to discuss a particular project would be when the minister's estimates are before the committee.


Frederick Samuel Zaplitny: I would be happy to do that, Mr. Chairman, were it not for the fact that on some occasions when estimates are before the committee we have difficulty in getting information. However, if I can have some assurance that the minister will give consideration to the request made by various chambers of commerce that a contribution be made by the government toward the upkeep of this project, I would have no reason to pursue the matter further now.


Jean Lesage: I have considered this matter with officers in my department, and I can assure the hon. member that consideration will be given to the representations made. I shall do my best with treasury board.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, I should like to have some explanation as to why it is deemed advisable to place Eskimo affairs under one department and Indian affairs under another, since both are in the north country and both have many similarities and are subject to similar problems. I realize, of course, that there are clear differences between their present status and the way in which they live.


Mr. Harris:: I shall try to reply briefly. The Leader of the Opposition is right to this extent, that both these peoples have problems in common. The Eskimos are not subject to a special act of parliament, and are not under a department of government with respect to their daily lives. I do not see anything in this bill which would indicate that that was the intention. On the other hand Indian affairs are, and since 1872 have been, under a statute which does direct in many ways the life of the Indian.


For that reason, since the Department of Citizenship and Immigration was established we have not thought it advisable to deal with Eskimos. They are not dealt with under a special act; and' because practically all of them live in the Northwest Territories we have felt that they might more properly be the responsibility of the minister who has the administration of that area.


George Alexander Drew: I do not wish to pursue this matter unnecessarily, but I would point out the fact that Eskimo affairs are dealt with as a specified subject, that the name in itself recognizes that no matter how different the status of the Eskimo may be from that of the Indian, the fact remains that they have no organized municipalities or anything of that nature which provide them with a local educational system or other local facilities.
While it is perfectly true that they are not under any treaty arrangement or anything of that nature, nevertheless there is a tremendous responsibility resting upon the government to provide education. Many things must be done if the Eskimos are to be brought to the full status of citizenship.
In saying that I recognize once again that the Eskimos are accorded the privilege of voting, and that they have other privileges withheld from those Indians who avail themselves of treaty rights. Nevertheless I must repeat what I said before, that I see many similarities, particularly in the northland where the Eskimos and the Indians live fairly close together.


An hon. Member:: No.


George Alexander Drew: Yes; I have been through there. When you go through the Dogrib country you go into the Eskimo country, and it is the same in other parts of the northland. They do not live in the same areas but they do live in adjacent areas. The hunting area of the Dogribs extends to the Eskimo country.
All I am pointing out is that anybody who is trying to carry out health or educational measures or anything of that kind in that area might be going into the Eskimo country and doing the same sort of thing. I have pointed out that this new measure makes reference to Eskimo affairs, and I am suggesting that the problems to be tackled will have many similarities with Indian affairs, although there are fundamental differences relating to the treaty rights of the Indians.


Walter Edward Harris: So there will be no misunderstanding, the essential difference is that if there are complaints against the administration of Indian affairs it has been over the reserve system. Whether that is a correct or

an incorrect criticism, we ought to agree that we do not want to start imposing upon the Eskimo people as such any of the restrictions, if you like, now imposed on the Indians. But with respect to the medical services there, of course, they are administered by the other department and are available to both groups.
However, what the Leader of the Opposition has said is undoubtedly true, that the problems of dealing with these people are much similar, in that their background is common, and their standard of education is as high as all the others. Certainly every effort will be made, I am confident, by the minister in charge of this department to see that the Eskimos are given treatment on a standard comparable to that of the white people in the Northwest Territories. It is for that reason that I am particularly pleased that he should have charge of the Eskimo problem as such, in order to have it dealt
Northern Affairs and National Resources with in common with all those in the Northwest Territories.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-Further duties.
William Alfred Robinson: Shall the section carry?


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is ten o'clock. If the committee thought it could get through this bill tonight we could continue, but I have one brief remark to make on clause 6.


Mr. Fulton:: No; 5 is not carried.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall I rise and report
progress?


Edmund Davie Fulton: I have been waiting all evening to ask a question on clause 5.
Section stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
It being five minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, December 9, 1953