1953-04-09

[Stage Direction]
Fifth report of standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Cleaver.


Mr. H. W. Winkler (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, I move:
That the report of the civil service commission respecting the position of assistant librarian, library of parliament, laid on the table of the house on Thursday, April 2, 1953, be now concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Fulton:: In connection with the George T. Davie and Sons Ltd. shipyard and the replies appearing at page 4615 of Hansard for June 25, 1951, in answer to previous questions:
1.	Was the full balance of $80,000 then owing to the government of Canada under the mortgage, duly repaid? If not, what further amount was written off?
2.	Has this company ever repaid, or indicated an intention to repay, the $450,000 cash advance from the government of Canada written off as at November 2, 1949, or any subsequent amount which may have been written off?
3.	Has the mortgage taken as security for the advances been released? If so, when?
4.	What was the total of payments made by the government to the company for its 5 per cent fee
as provided in the five contracts outlined in the answers referred to above?
5.	Have any other contracts been awarded to this company since the said 25 June, 1951?
6.	If so, when were these contracts placed, what was the subject matter of each contract, what is the cost or estimated cost to the government of the subject matter of each contract, and if on a cost plus fixed fee basis, what is the fee and what was or will be paid to the company in respect thereof under each contract?
7.	Has this company received any capital assistance grants or other funds or assistance from the government, apart from the $1,011,187 referred to in part one of the answers of June 25, 1951, during the period covered by those answers or subsequent thereto? If so, how much, giving dates, nature and amounts or value of assistance in each case?
8.	What was the reason for writing off the $450,000 of the company's indebtedness to the government referred to previously?
9.	Who are now the directors and majority shareholders of this company?


Mr. Dickey:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No repayment has been made by this company, as the $450,000 referred to represents the share of the loss on completion of the vessels which the government agreed to assume, as outlined by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in his statement to the House of Commons on April 7, 1949, which is recorded at page 2429 of Hansard, debates of the House of Commons, volume III, April 7, 1949.
3.	No, but a release is being prepared for execution.
4.	$192,611.34 to December 31, 1952.
5.	Yes.
6.
Date of contract	Subject matter
Present		Fees
Estimated	Fee	claimed
cost		to date
July 31, 1951	Refit and conversion of two (2)
river class frigates	
August 7, 1951	Refit and conversion of two (2)
Bangor class minesweepers December 29, 1951 . .. Class spares for Gate vessels
November, 1952	One (1) modified Norton class
tug

5 % of cost
5 % of cost Firm price
5 % of cost

Nil
807.98
7. On March 1, 1952, there was granted to machinery necessary in the construction of this company an amount of $9,702.29 as capi- minesweeping vessels, which machinery is to tal assistance, for the purchase of certain remain the property of the crown.

Questions
8.	The amount of $450,000 was not considered to represent "the company's indebtedness to the government". See answer to No. 2 above.
9.	The present directors are: Messrs. Andre Delagrave, C. G. Hoyt, J. E. Labelle, J. Mos-sup, J. Arthur Paquet, M. Paquet, Jean Raymond, Q.C., R. K. Thoman.
The majority shareholders of this company are not known.


CHICOUTIMI COUNTY, QUE.  TRANSPORT EXPENDITURES
Mr. Gagnon:: Since January 1, 1945, what amounts have been spent, each year, by the Department of Transport, in the county of Chicoutimi for (a) marine services; (b) railway and steamship services; (c) air services?


Mr. Benidickson:: Calen-	Railway &
dar	Marine	steamship	Air	year	services	services	services	Total1945 $	5,125	-	$ 1,780	$ 6,9051946	5,408	-	43,995	49,4031947	5,922	-	56,225	62,1471948	6,881	-	112,813	119,6941949	7,095	-	85,189	92,2841950	6,855	-	72,286	79,1411951	7,302	-	37,055	44,3571952	13,739	-	1,437	15,176$	58,327	$410,780	$ 469,107


PUBLIC BUILDING, ROBERVAL, QUE.
Mr. Spence:: 1.	During the years 1951-52 and 1952-53, was any amount spent, each year, in connection with the public building at Roberval?
2.	If so, what amount and for what purpose, in each case?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Fiscal Year 1951-52
Construction and improvements ..	$ 199.65
Repairs and maintenance	 657.92
Salaries and wages	 1,107.52
Furniture and fittings	 71.06
Fuel	 823.05
Light and power	 114.34
Water	   48.00
Caretakers' supplies and sundries	.	73.72

From April 1, 1952 to December
31, 1952
Repairs and maintenance	 $	11.78
Salaries and wages	 898.83
Furniture and fittings	 27.00
Fuel	  644.86
Light and power	 81.74
Caretakers' supplies and sundries .	46.46



$1,710.67 QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS CHICOUTIMI AND LAPOINTE COUNTIES, QUE.   MARKETING SERVICE EXPENDITURES

['1.\tHas the government or the Canadian National Railways sold any property in Sarnia or Point Edward, Ontario, within the last two years?\n2.\tIf so, (a) to whom was such property sold; (b) what was the price paid?\n3.\tWas the sale made by tender?\n4.\tIf not, by what method?']
Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Since January 1, 1945, what amounts have been spent, each year, by the Department of Agriculture in the counties of (a) Chicoutimi; (b) Lapointe, under the heading of "marketing service"?



Mr. Diefenbaker:: What are the names and addresses of barristers, solicitors and advocates to whom fees in excess of $1,000 have been paid by each department of the federal government, showing the amount paid to each of them by the respective departments, since the first day of January, 1951?


NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Fulton:: 1.	How many studies, investigations or surveys of the administration of the Department of National Defence or of the civil establishment of the said department or any part thereof, have been made by the civil service commission since January 1, 1947, as a result of any requests made or authorized by the said department?
2.	In how many such cases were the said studies, etc., followed by written reports or memoranda or other written submissions?
3.	What was (a) the particular subject of each such study, etc.; (b) the date of each such report, etc.?


PROPERTY SOLD, SARNIA OR POINT EDWARD, ONTARIO
Mr. Murphy:: 1.	Has the government or the Canadian National Railways sold any property in Sarnia or Point Edward, Ontario, within the last two years?
2.	If so, (a) to whom was such property sold; (b) what was the price paid?
3.	Was the sale made by tender?
4.	If not, by what method?



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Angus Maclnnis (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister

of Labour whether he can give the house any information on the grain elevator dispute in Vancouver and New Westminster.


Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, though my hon. friend notified me that he intended to ask this question, I *can only tell him that there have been no important new developments to justify me in making anything like an optimistic statement in the house today.
I regret that I was not able to be in the house last Tuesday when my hon. friend and the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) spoke on this matter, but I read carefully what they had to say. I assume, Mr. Speaker, that it would not be in order for me to attempt to deal fully with their remarks at this particular time. However, the impression was left that my department had not been doing all that it could do to help settle this dispute. That I wish to deny at once. This dispute has characteristics that do not lend themselves to some of the simple solutions that were suggested the other night, but patient and constant efforts which we believe best fit the situation have been conducted by my department before the strike started and ever since then, and we shall continue to carry on in that fashion.


Mr. Green:: May I ask the minister this
question:	Is he unwilling to invite representatives of the parties to come to Ottawa to discuss the situation?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If such a course would appear
to us, after careful study, to be the course that should be pursued to bring about a settlement, we would not hesitate a moment to invite them.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, may I make
a supplementary remark. I was going to ask the same question as the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra has asked. May I say that if, by what I said last Tuesday, I gave the impression that the department was not doing everything it could do in the matter, it was purely unintentional on my part. I thought I made it quite clear that the department was keeping in touch with the situation.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Defence. Has the minister's attention been directed to the publication, in the current
Inquiries of the Ministry issue of Saturday Night, of an exchange of correspondence between the deputy minister of national defence and Mr. John Stevenson, Ottawa correspondent for Saturday Night? If so, in the light of this correspondence and of the proven inaccuracy of the deputy minister's statement-


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I cannot allow the
hon. member to make statements. He is allowed to ask questions. I will allow him to ask a question but he must not make a statement with respect to the question he is about to ask.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What I want to know is
whether the government will now table the complete text of the MacNab report,


Hon. Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I think I should
answer the hon. gentleman by saying that the letter of the deputy minister which was shown to me is completely accurate in every respect. What is inaccurate-and, I may say, characteristically inaccurate-is the report appearing under the name of J. A. Stevenson in Saturday Night. I have seldom seen anything less competent in the way of reporting or more inaccurate than those stories.
The Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has already stated to the house the position with regard to the MacNab report; but it might be added that Mr. MacNab himself, in a statement to the press, said that it was not a report but was a memorandum intended for the information of his former superior officer in the civil service commission and that the allegations made were based largely on hearsay and would have to be verified before they were to be taken as facts.
The position with regard to this and other similar documents was stated to the house a couple of weeks ago but it is already thoroughly well known to the house and is thoroughly in accord with the practice at Westminster and here. The position is that documents of this character made for the confidential information of officers of the government or members of the government are privileged; and every hon. member knows that.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary question, may I ask the minister this. I am quite sure that the minister would not wish to leave an inaccurate impression-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Casselman:: Put the steam roller on.
3640	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am quite sure the minister would not wish to leave an inaccurate impression on the record. I would therefore ask him if he would not wish to amend his statement, with which I take issue, to the effect that Mr. MacNab said that his report was based upon hearsay. My recollection of the statement made by Mr. MacNab is certainly to the contrary and that his report was based on personal observations.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, this raises another question. The minister referred to the practice at Westminster and here.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I cannot allow discussion on that matter at this time.


John George Diefenbaker: I was just referring to the gratuitous statement made by the minister.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The minister answered a question. If the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) would like to ask a question, I will allow him to do so.


John George Diefenbaker: I will ask it in this way, Mr. Speaker, if I may. Has it not always been considered to be constitutionally inexcusable for a civil servant to enter into political controversy with regard to a departmental matter?


Brooke Claxton: Mr. Speaker, I can answer that question by saying that I do not think it is improper for a civil servant, with the authority of his minister, to correct a gross inaccuracy.


Mr. Rowe:: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the minister a question. Did he have authority from the minister in this case?


Brooke Claxton: Certainly.


John George Diefenbaker: That renders it all the
more inexcusable.


William Earl Rowe: I should like to ask the minister whether he believes it is proper for a deputy minister politically to defend the government.


Brooke Claxton: I know of no deputy minister less likely to enter into any political controversy than the deputy minister of national defence; and that is well known to all members of this house. He needs no defence from me on that score. I should like to say this. If a deputy wishes to make a correction of fact and does so with the authority of the minister, I can see nothing in the constitutional practice to prevent that course from being followed, as was done in this case.


Mr. Fleming:: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the minister this question. If he gave approval to this statement, why did he not make the statement himself?


John George Diefenbaker: Did he think it would be more creditable?


Brooke Claxton: I would have been very glad to do so but the deputy minister came to me and said, "Should I write this?" I said, "If you feel that way, certainly do so. It is in accordance with the facts."

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OP PUBLIC WORKS Architectural branch-
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-
325.	Nova Scotia, $1,200,000.


Mr. Noseworthy:: At six o'clock last night
we were discussing the question of revotes. I wonder whether the minister will explain why his department's record regarding the expenditure of money voted last year is so much better for Nova Scotia than for the other provinces. We pointed out, for instance, yesterday that eight of the nine items listed for Newfoundland were revotes, that seven of these were entirely revotes for projects on which nothing had been done during the year. In the case of Nova Scotia there are only nine out of fourteen revotes and only four of these are entire revotes. In other words, out of fourteen projects ten were started. A year ago the department estimated they had asked for $360,000 more than they were able to spend, yet they actually asked for $780,000 more than they did expend, which is only about twice as much as they estimated. In the case of Newfoundland they left unspent about four times as much as they estimated would be unspent. There may be some circumstances which explain why the department is so much more efficient in spending the moneys voted for Nova Scotia than for Newfoundland.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: There is just one
explanation I can give the hon. member. Newfoundland joined Canada only four years ago, and we had to set up in that province a district. We had to have people from headquarters go out to Newfoundland and make a study of the situation. Probably the progress is not as rapid there as it would be in a province which joined confederation in 1867, where we have an old staff and know the situation. That would be one reason.

The second reason probably is that our staff in Newfoundland is not extensive enough, and we were most ambitious in our estimates of the work we could do. The hon. gentleman who hails from that province would know that every Canadian wants to keep the friendship of that new province, and my department especially is doing its utmost to meet their requests and try to do the work they need done, but I think it will take me some time to succeed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Before we go too far into these other items, I recall that last night when we were on item 322 I asked certain questions concerning maintenance and upkeep of the prime minister's residence and the minister said he would obtain further information to give to the committee which he did not have available at that time. I wonder whether he could give it now.


Alphonse Fournier: I am always ready
to revert back, but I would not want this to become a habit. We spent two days on that item, and I did my best to explain. I shall send over to the hon. member the information that he asked for under that item, which concerns the expenditures on the prime minister's residence in the last fiscal year.


John George Diefenbaker: Read it out.


Alphonse Fournier: We carried that item. Do you want to start the resolution all over again? I am giving the information, and I want to be agreeable. I was held up on that first item for two days, and we covered every item in the book. I do not think that is regular. I am giving the information. If you do not like it-


John George Diefenbaker: Put it on the record;
we want it on the record.


Alphonse Fournier: All right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am hoping that we shall try to proceed in a co-operative spirit. Yesterday afternoon when I asked this question the minister said he would obtain the information.


Alphonse Fournier: Then I will read it because I want to co-operate, too. The expenditures are as follows:	Servicing oil
burner, $52.50; heating improvements, $30; freight, etc., $2.44; furniture and furnishings, $2,416.03; window cleaning, $132.50; fuel oil, $437.82; char service supplies, $53.15; other supplies, $169.15; repairs and upkeep of equipment, $36.91; light and power, $421.69; water, $119.96; unforeseen improvements, alterations for maid's quarters, etc., $4,948.33, making a total of $8,820.48.
Supply-Public Works Mr. Fleming: What were these unforeseen
improvements and alterations?


Alphonse Fournier: I hope, Mr. Chairman, we are not reopening that item. That resolution was carried. Before it was carried I undertook to give this information. If I am going to start over again on estimates that have been passed I do not think it will be in order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sure it is not the wish of the minister to be un-co-operative in any way. This is a special matter, and when it was before the committee yesterday I raised this question on this particular item following a lengthy discussion which took place on an entirely different aspect of administration in general. When the minister indicated he did not have the information and would produce it, then no obstacle was put in his way in proceeding to the next item. The information that he has brought to the committee, for which I thank him, naturally gives rise to one or two further questions. There is the item of $4,000 odd for unforeseen improvements and alterations that were required on which I should like to ask one or two further questions.


Alphonse Fournier: Do you want me to give the explanation that my officials give to me on that last item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes; I would say this to the minister, in order to save time, and1 that he may know what I have in mind. Naturally with respect to a building that was completed only a short time ago at very great cost, including the land and- furnishings, of something over $600,000, it is disturbing to find within the first two years that substantial expenditures are being incurred on repairs and alterations. We remember that the architect and the builder were given a very free hand when they went in there, and the minister will naturally understand the concern of hon. members that within so short a time we should be incurring further expenditures by way of repairs and alterations.


Alphonse Fournier: To complete the answer I gave a moment ago, this is the footnote to the figures which were handed to me before coming into the house. This note has to do with the last item I mentioned and reads as follows:
Finishing an attic room for accommodation of maid and an adjoining space for an ironing room; cutting door into washroom, lighting, linoleum, cutting dormer window, building cupboard; making storm sash for northerly exposure; alterations to humidifying system; wire mesh frames on four stove chimneys.


William Earl Rowe: How much?

Supply-Public Works Mr. Fleming: There is an item of $4,000 odd for furnishings. What is that for?


Alphonse Fournier: I have given the list. Do you want me to read it again?


William Earl Rowe: You did not say how much?


Donald Methuen Fleming: There was an item of $4,000 odd1 for furnishings.


Alphonse Fournier: These are estimates we have for this fiscal year. What I have given you now is what was expended last year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: While we are on that, will the minister give an explanation of the item of $4,000 he mentioned yesterday afternoon?'


Alphonse Fournier: I would have to ask my department to try to give me a detailed list. Yesterday I explained the total of $10,950, by saying that there was the payment to the steward as representative of this department in the household, amounting to $1,000. That would need no explanation. Then there was an item of $4,000 for furnishings. I shall have to ask my architect to make a list of all the details of this $4,000.
I do not have those details in this book, but I shall give them to my hon. friend as soon as I have them.


Mr. Balcom:: I should like to ask the minister a question and', for the comfort of the hon. member for York South, let me say that this one is a revote. Also for his comfort I would add that the public works staff in Halifax, while overworked, is very efficient.
I should, like to ask regarding the condition respecting alterations in the custom's annex building at Halifax. Has it been decided to make the alterations to the old customs building, or build a new one? And, as the building is so badly needed, can he say when the work will be started?


Alphonse Fournier: Is the hon. member speaking of the customs building, or the new building it is proposed to build there? There are two items.


Samuel Rosborough Balcom: The new building.


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is to provide a sum for the acquisition of a site and the erection of a new public building to accommodate the post office. It was originally proposed to erect a new customs building to replace the existing old customs building, which is beyond economic repair. Funds were provided for the project in the supplementary estimates of 1942-43. However, as a result of a complete study of space requirements in Halifax by officials of the architects branch, it is now proposed to erect

a new public building near the station of the Canadian National Railways.
The post office will occupy the major portion of it. The space vacated by the post office in the existing public building will be assigned to the customs department, which will vacate the condemned old customs building.


Samuel Rosborough Balcom: Is that the item of $200,000,
for the public building?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


Samuel Rosborough Balcom: Then, may I ask a third question. The department acquired property on Hollis street, the old Halifax hotel property, some years ago, for the erection of a public building. I wonder if plans have been completed for that, or are there any definite plans to begin the construction of that building?


Alphonse Fournier: That site was acquired some years ago. We prepared plans, but as yet we have not proceeded to put up the building.


Samuel Rosborough Balcom: Has the minister any idea when it will be done?


Mr. Higgins:: May I revert to a previous item? Last night the minister gave some information which I do not think is quite correct. I do not suggest that he did ft deliberately. I asked him the cost of Canada House in Newfoundland, and he referred me to the public accounts for 1946. The item does not appear there. Where would it be?


Alphonse Fournier: Did the hon. member look at the 1947 accounts?


Gordon Francis Higgins: I looked under both the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Public Works. Where else should I look?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told it was purchased in 1947 by the Department of External Affairs.


Gordon Francis Higgins: The minister told me last night it was 1946.


Alphonse Fournier: I do make mistakes.


Mr. Gillis:: I should like to ask a question respecting Nova Scotia public buildings. What progress is being made in regard to the public building at Sydney, Nova Scotia?
I notice that there is a revote.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. Property for the site has been acquired and plans submitted to the department for approval. Before we begin drawing our own plans we have to have requests from the different departments which will occupy the building, so that we may know how to draw up those plans and

give them the necessary space. All the departments which we believe will occupy the building have been canvassed, and we will begin receiving their answers which will be used as a base for the preparation of our own plans.


Clarence Gillis: Has the department purchased the site?


Alphonse Fournier: The site for the
proposed building was expropriated in the fiscal year 1951-52. The expropriation was filed in October, 1951, on a site located at the corner of Falmouth and George streets. It consists of a frontage of 224 feet on Falmouth street and 150 feet on George street. The present owner, R. J. Logue, asked $28,408 as compensation. An order in council dated March 25,	1952, granted
authority to accept this offer.


Clarence Gillis: Do you anticipate beginning to build in 1953?


Alphonse Fournier: I am going to see
that they do their utmost to complete the plans and ask for tenders. I cannot commit the department to a definite date, but we are working that out.


Clarence Gillis: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
326.	Prince Edward Island, $235,000.
Mr. McLure:: I am sure the minister will
be pleased with this item, because it consists of revotes. The first part of it refers to a public building in Charlottetown, involving a revote of $50,000. That has been carried over for the last eight or nine years. Then, why is a revote used in connection with the Kensington public building? I have no objection to the Kensington building, because they have need of it there. However, I notice that in connection with the Charlottetown building too small an amount was voted, and there has to be a revote. I would like to have an explanation.


Alphonse Fournier: Yesterday I gave an
answer which I think was encouraging to the hon. member. I would prefer to read what I said as it appears in Hansard, so that I would not change anything in that statement. I do not want to contradict myself at the same session when my estimates are being discussed.
However, if the hon. member would look at yesterday's Hansard he would see that 80 per cent of the architect's plans have been prepared. We are the owners of the site, and we are working on the other plans. I join with the hon. member in the hope that there
Supply-Public Works will be speedy action in connection with the Charlottetown public building.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
327.	New Brunswick, $1,215,000.
Mr. Brooks:: I should like to make the
same complaint as others have made, namely that most of these are revotes. My experience has been that a vote in one year becomes a revote in the next year. My question has reference to the vote for the public building at Rothesay. This has been a revote for years. Has the site been acquired for this building, and when will construction be proceeded with?


Alphonse Fournier: Rothesay is another
project with which I am having trouble. My advisers are not all of the same mind as to this public building, although I am with the hon. member on this. They have other ideas. I am going to try to convince them that this item was put in the estimates for a new public building and I am going to instruct them here and now to go ahead with that project.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Thank you, Mr. Minister. An argument which the minister could very well use is that the population of this community is increasing very rapidly. There has been an increase of about 2,000 in the last four or five years.


Alphonse Fournier: This department
erects these public buildings to serve other departments and we generally try to get their co-operation and agreement. It is not always easy and that explains the delay in this case.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: When is the work on the
Chipman public building to be done? I hope that this amount will not be revoted next year because I know it is badly needed.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that the
contract has been let.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The third item is in connection with St. Stephen. This amount has been revoted for a number of years. As everyone in New Brunswick knows, a customs building is badly needed at St. Stephen, as there is no comparison at all between our building and the United States building. I hope the minister will be able to go on with this work very soon.


Alphonse Fournier: Notice of expropriation of the site was filed on January 21, 1952. We had valuations of the property made by two independent parties. We are waiting approval of the preliminary plans by the various departments which will occupy space
3644	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works in this building. The moment we get that approval we will complete the plans and then proceed.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: That will be customs and'
immigration.


Alphonse Fournier: Correct.


Mr. Montgomery:: I should like to inquire
about the public building at Plaster Rock. Is that to be a new post office? Are the plans completed so that you can get on with this work this year?


Alphonse Fournier: This is not a revote. This amount is to provide for the purchase of the site and the erection of a public building for postal purposes at Plaster Rock. This is the first time this item has appeared in the estimates and I hope it will not be revoted too often.


Gage Workman Montgomery: Have you been able to
get along with the plans at all?


Alphonse Fournier: This item was tabled only in January and I do not think much progress has been made.


Gage Workman Montgomery: You already own the
site, do you not?


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps the hon.
gentleman is right about that, but I have not that information in my notes.


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister gave a
logical answer to my question regarding the contrast in efficiency in spending money as between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, but his answer does not explain the difference as between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. New Brunswick is not a new province by any means. I take it that the minister has certain administrative machinery in the province of New Brunswick. The difference as between New Brunswick and Nova Scotia is just about as great as between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.
For instance, I find that of fifteen items for New Brunswick, ten are revotes amounting to $1,180,000. A year ago the department estimated that they had asked for only $450,000 more than they would spend, but actually they asked for $1,180,000 more than they spent. I notice that there are seven projects on which nothing whatever was done and no part of the votes spent. There must be some explanation other than what the minister gave in connection with Newfoundland.


Alphonse Fournier: If the hon. member
will look at the details on page 398 he will find this:
Less: Estimated amount by which actual expenditure on all listed projects will fall short of the total of amounts that may be required for each, $450,000. 

That leaves a total of $1,215,000. We know that in every instance we will not expend the whole amount, but I remember one year we spent $2 million more on a project than what we had asked for. I had a lot of trouble getting treasury board to approve a transfer from another item in the same vote to this project and I had to come back to parliament and ask for it. The real estimate here is not $1,665,000; it is less $450,000. That is by way of explanation.
I have explained to the hon. gentleman representing New Brunswick the situation that exists in connection with the four or five cases he put to me. I thought I was able to give logical answers, but perhaps I was mistaken. We did more work in one year in one province than in another, but that is only normal. Next year the probability is that more work will be done in the other province. The staff here in Ottawa cannot give the same attention to all parts of the country. When they start on certain projects they try to complete them.
I am not bragging when I say that I have had some experience in these matters as I have been handling this department for some time. Perhaps I should have a smile oh my face, but I know the matter is more serious. I am anxious to see buildings completed so that the country may have all the facilities required. I do not lose sleep over it, but it does keep my mind occupied. I appreciate that the hon. member is a hard worker and is endeavouring to cover the whole country. I will tell my officials to try to meet his wishes and spend the same amount in every province, as he would like them to do.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We appreciate very much the hon. member for York South fighting our battles, but if he will wait until we reach the item having to do with Ontario I think he will find a worse situation than that existing in New Brunswick. There are more revotes there than there are in our province.


Mr. Knowles:: Is it a coincidence that they both have Tory provincial governments?


Gage Workman Montgomery: Can we look forward to something being in the supplementary estimates in connection with the public building at Woodstock? I understand that the minister has some good intentions in connection, with that building.


Alphonse Fournier: This building was proposed some years ago and we had had from the departments particulars of their needs in the locality. The building will be two storeys and basement structure, 85 by 90 feet, brick and concrete blocks, stone trim

and tar and gravel roof. We are building on the site of the old building and the estimated cost is $195,000. All we need is the approval of the different departments of our plans because we cannot start construction before that. We have reached that stage.


Mr. Robichaud:: I would ask the minister to give some details with respect to the new vote of $70,000 for the Chatham public building.


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is provided for the construction of an addition and for alterations to the public building at Chatham. The proposed work is strongly-requested. by the Post Office Department which has placed the item in category A priority. The Department of Fisheries and the unemployment insurance commission have also requested accommodation at Chatham. Pending preparation of preliminary plans, we estimate the cost of this work will be $70,000.


Albany M. Robichaud: Has the minister had representations from the Post Office Department and the Department of National Revenue for much needed alterations and repairs to the Bathurst public building?


Alphonse Fournier: I would have to look over the file to furnish that information. I would have to look over the file concerning Bathurst to see if the departments have requested space or alterations there.


Mr. White (Middlesex East):: Is the new
proposed building at Plaster Rock for the post office only? If so, what is the population of Plaster Rock?


Alphonse Fournier: According to the notes I have here-and I read them a moment ago-this amount is to be provided toward the purchase of a site and the erection of a public building for postal purposes at Plaster Rock. The proposed work is strongly recommended by the Post Office Department which has placed this project in category A on their list of requirements. They state that their present quarters are entirely inadequate and that no other suitable premises are available for rental.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
328.	Quebec, $9,440,000.
Mr. Fraser:: With respect to Montreal, there is a vote and a revote for the national film board building. Is it the intention of the government to proceed with that building this year?


Alphonse Fournier: I am not too sure that we have completed purchase of the site. 68108-231
Supply-Public Works I think somebody raised that question earlier in the session and I answered that we were negotiating with two or three parties who are the owners of the site. Here is the information I have. Notice of expropriation was filed in January, 1951, on the property located on the north side of Cote de Liesse or Metropolitan boulevard, a short distance east from the Decarie and Cote de Liesse circle near the town of St. Laurent. In that instance we have engaged the services of architects for the preparation of the plans. If the hon. gentleman wants to know whether we are going to go ahead with the project, that is the intention of the government. I am under the impression that the architects are now working on the plans.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has the minister any estimate as to the total cost of the building?


Alphonse Fournier: It is pretty difficult for me to give an estimate because the plans are only being prepared, but I am told that the whole project will cost approximately $5 million.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is there going to be one theatre or more than one theatre in that building?


Alphonse Fournier: Will it have more than one?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will there be more than one theatre in the building?


Alphonse Fournier: I really do not know. I have not seen the plans.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The plans are not completed.


Alphonse Fournier: The firm of Ross, Patterson, Townsend and Fish of Montreal is preparing the plans. I have not seen the plans.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will it be a three-dimensional building?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has the minister any idea of the total cost of the building?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that right now they think that the building will cost $5 million, but we have not got the plans and it is quite difficult for me to make an estimate.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What will the site cost on top of that?


Alphonse Fournier: I cannot give an estimate for the building before the plans and specifications are prepared and I cannot say whether the site will be comprised in that amount. We have not completed the purchase of the land and I would not like to give the figures I have here at this time. We have got independent valuators for these sites. The valuations are prepared by Therien, by

Supply-Public Works Leblanc and by Hebert of Montreal. There are three different valuators. I can give these figures to my hon. friend but I would rather not have them published before we complete negotiations and the purchase.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You have not completed
negotiations?


Alphonse Fournier: In one case we took possession of the property and under authority of treasury board and council made an advance payment to Robert M. Cummings and Jack L. Cummings on account of the compensation to be paid as a result of the expropriation of their property. That is just a percentage of the amount of our valuation on the property. If we do not agree as to the balance of the amount we will go before the Exchequer Court because we have given notice of expropriation.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Have you your valuation on the property there?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And how many acres?


Alphonse Fournier: I would hesitate to give the amount. Our valuations would justify us in paying a percentage to the owners of the property in order to take immediate possession, and we would complete the deed as to the balance before the Exchequer Court. Perhaps I am not explaining myself clearly. Suppose the valuation we have is $250,000 or $230,000 or $200,000. We are justified in paying part of the price because we have decided on the project of expropriation. We have given notice. We take possession of the site for this payment so that we can proceed with the erection of the building, and so far as the balance of their claim is concerned that matter will be decided by judgment of the Exchequer Court.


Albany M. Robichaud: Will the minister please give us information about the purposes of the proposed public building at Cap aux Meules for which a revote of $25,000 is included in the estimates? Likewise I should like to have information as to the purposes of the proposed public building at Causapscal for which a new vote of $100,000 is provided.


Alphonse Fournier: The amount of $25,000 is required for the purchase of a site and towards the construction thereon of a public building to provide accommodation for the postal and customs services, Department of Transport and other government departments at Cap aux Meules, Magdalen islands. In the case of Causapscal the amount is required for the purchase of a site and erection thereon of a public building to provide improved accommodation for the postal service and the unemployment insurance commission. The deputy postmaster general reports that it has

been decided to amalgamate the offices at Causapscal village and at the station in a suitable public building to serve both these communities. At the present time these offices are located in separate premises in these two different places.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Would the minister make a statement with regard to the progress being made in connection with the building for the national printing bureau? Will he tell us when it is expected that the building will be completed and ready for the bureau to move in, and also how much money has been spent to date and whether or not the original estimate is being adhered to?


Alphonse Fournier: Last year I gave an estimate of about $13 million, but I can give a closer estimate this year. It has gone down to $12,800,000. This is a list of the contracts given on that to date. There was a contract in 1950 for $228,695; another contract in October, 1950, for $241,989; a contract for the power house and diesel generating unit, $71,000; a contract for the construction of the concrete structure of the power house, $822,-185-these are all after tenders. It is understood, and I shall not repeat it every time, that we called for public tenders and it is the lowest tenderer who gets the job.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The lowest tender in all cases?


Alphonse Fournier: The lowest tender in each case. There was a contract for the construction of the concrete structure of the main building including extra work authorized, $278,179, and the last contract that was just signed some time in December of last year or January of this year, for the completion of the building $7,999,982. If you add that to the cost of plans, provision for contingencies and so on, that makes up this amount of $12,800,000 which I have given.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister answer my other question as to what progress is being made and when the building will be ready?


Alphonse Fournier: That is a question I should like to answer myself, if I were sure I could give the right answer. This project started-[DOT]


Stanley Howard Knowles: You are speaking as the member for Hull?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, I am not speaking as the minister. This project started years ago, and if the hon. gentleman knew all the trouble I have had to get the project going, and even the trouble I have now trying to keep it going, he would not ask me for a definite date. I pray every day that some day I will see the building completed before I disappear.

(Translation):


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Could the minister give me the details pertaining to the amount of $75,000 for repairs and additions to a public building at Bagotville?


Alphonse Fournier: The amount is required for the construction of an addition and for alterations to the public building at Bagotville to give better accommodation to the Post Office Department. The Post Office Department has complained that the present post office was congested, that there was not enough space. The officers of my department have received a request from the Postmaster General (Mr. Cote) in that connection and they have placed that building in class A.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Does the minister believe that work will be started shortly?


Alphonse Fournier: If I could make any promise to my hon. friend I would do so, but I must tell him that even in my own county I have trouble in getting work done. However I am told that my officers are working on plans and specifications for that building, but I cannot say exactly when work will begin.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Will the minister oblige me with detailed information as to the item of $250,000 for the construction of a public building at Chicoutimi?


Alphonse Fournier: What I have just said with regard to Bagotville applies also to Chicoutimi. We are going to carry out this project but whether the building will be erected immediately is another question. I understand that the architect has been chosen and that he is going to get in touch with the various services for which offices are to be provided in that building. As soon as the plans and specifications are ready, we will call for tenders.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Could the minister tell me which government services will be housed in that building?


Alphonse Fournier: The post office, the customs office, the unemployment insurance commission office and, I am told, other government services. I suppose that it is intended to centralize in this new building the various federal services which now exist at Chicoutimi.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Does that mean that postal delivery in the district will originate from that place?


Alphonse Fournier: I suggest to my hon. friend to inquire from the Postmaster General, when his estimates are before the house, what his intentions are; that is something of which I am not aware.
9, 1953	3647
Supply-Public Works
(Text):


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I want to ask one more question about this $900,000 vote. Is this $900,000 for the land and the plans? Is that what it is to cover?


Alphonse Fournier: What we have in mind is the purchase of the land out of this vote and the preparation of the plans and specifications, as well as the commencement of the work. This is the amount the department thinks we would spend during this fiscal year. If we do not spend it I shall come back and say that I want an amount plus a revote of part of this $900,000. Those are the three things we have in mind.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
329.	Ottawa, $7,000,000.
Howard Charles Green: This vote covers buildings in Ottawa, and I should like to ask the minister about several of the projects. The first one is a vote of $50,000 for the construction of a parking area north of Wellington street. Can the minister tell us where that is to be, and why it is costing that much for a parking lot?


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is to provide for the construction of a parking area on the flat land north of the temporary buildings on Wellington street. Additional parking space is urgently required. The new area will serve buildings already erected and to be erected in this area. This is a new vote which was just introduced in January. I have not any more details in my notes. If the hon. gentleman knows where temporary buildings Nos. 1 and 4 are on Wellington street, the idea is to level out a space behind these buildings to construct this parking area. No work has been done to date.
If the hon. gentleman knows the city of Ottawa well, he knows that the parking situation in Ottawa is extremely difficult. We are trying to help out by having a parking space down behind the Supreme Court and behind these public buildings. I think we will do this work this year.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad to hear that the minister is making a parking space at the rear of the Supreme Court building, because I brought that matter to his attention the year before last. I just wondered why the dirt from the excavations for other projects was not put in there.


Alphonse Fournier: My information is that the dirt from the excavations for these buildings is put on other government properties in the district. I do not know exactly where they carried the dirt from the excavation of the Wellington street site, but we used it on other government property for levelling off and filling in.
3648	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: Then, there is a further item of $50,000 for the national library. Is it planned to commence construction of the national library during the present fiscal year or just what will that vote cover?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that this amount is for the preparation of the plans. The site chosen is still occupied by No. 1 temporary building, and whenever we can remove that building we want to have the plans ready to put up the national library.


Howard Charles Green: Then, there is a vote of $150,000 for a service building for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police near the seminary building. Apparently this is the first year there has been a vote for that building. Will the minister tell us what the total cost of the building is to be?


Alphonse Fournier: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police report that additional space is absolutely essential for the efficient operation of their headquarters and to take care of their normal expansion requirements for the next five years. It is proposed to provide the required accommodation by erecting a building at the rear of the Ottawa seminary building which is presently occupied by the mounted police under a five-year lease. It is proposed to erect a building in close proximity to the seminary to provide 12,500 feet of space. The preparation of plans and specifications has not yet been undertaken and a description and an accurate estimate of the cost of the proposed structure are not yet available. However, it is anticipated that the amount of $150,000 now requested will be sufficient to meet the requirements for 1953-54.


Howard Charles Green: But surely the department must have some idea of the total cost?


Alphonse Fournier: My officials tell me that this is about the amount for the whole of the building. The plans not being completed, it may be up or down some. It is a building of 12,500 square feet. I am told that $150,000 would be about right for such a building.


Howard Charles Green: Is this building to be in addition to the seminary itself which the minister told us last night was being rented for the mounted police at an annual rental of $370,000?


Alphonse Fournier: Even at that, when they moved out of the justice building and went over there, they still found that they did not have sufficient space. They made this request to the Department of Public Works to furnish them with another 12,500 feet. So this building, I am told, will not be of a permanent character as are the buildings you have on Wellington street, like the veterans' building or the justice building. It will


be to complete the space that they need for their operations.


Howard Charles Green: Then there will be this new building that will cost $150,000 and in addition to that the department will be paying $370,000 a year as rental for the seminary?


Alphonse Fournier: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any intention to
expropriate the seminary?


Alphonse Fournier: I would not give any inkling as to that. Actually, for the space we get in that building, I think we are paying a little bit less than we do in the normal unit price over the city. I would not say yes or no. The government has not considered that. We needed space badly for the staff of the mounted police who had been asking for it since the war, and this was the only place that we could get rapidly. We have taken a lease on it for five years. As to the future intention of the government, the matter has not been considered, to my knowledge.


Howard Charles Green: Is the rental the same for each year?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes; for each year.


Howard Charles Green: Then there is another vote for the parliamentary library, fireproofing and renovation, $500,000. Will that complete the renovation of the parliamentary library?


Alphonse Fournier: No. Our estimate is about $1 million. Plans are actually being prepared by Mr. Mathers, architect from Toronto, who is actually working on them. The moment we close the house here-on May 2, I hope-they will have workmen taking down the whole tower. This will be- and I am telling the committee this right now-one of those undertakings as to which I do not think that anybody, even with plans, would undertake to give a firm price. I have looked into the matter since we had that fire. I have consulted various people. I am told by the best architects and contractors in these matters that, with respect to an old building constructed just after confederation, nobody would want to give a firm price for the rebuilding and fireproofing of it, even if we had plans, because we cannot make definite specifications for that. They have to tear it down to see what is in it. I recall an instance, with regard to one of our buildings that we were repairing, where we even found secret rooms.


Howard Charles Green: You might find some of the party skeletons in there.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps of both parties. I am told that we estimate the cost at $1 million but that we do not expect in this fiscal year to spend more than half a million.


Howard Charles Green: Will that work be done on a cost-plus basis?


Alphonse Fournier: I do not like cost-plus contracts. What I have in mind is this, although I do not know whether I shall proceed. I intend to get in touch with the biggest contracting firms, or some of the biggest contracting firms-four or five of them in the country-and have them look over the building; then I shall ask them what fixed fee they will charge us with regard to this building, keeping the exterior appearance as it is, to make it fireproof and probably to extend the basement which would serve as stackrooms. If they give me a fixed fee price, through our audit branch and our budget people we would keep the amount of the expenditure down on the building. But I would not want to give out a cost-plus contract. It would be a fixed fee. Suppose they said they wanted so many thousand dollars to do the job. I would have them sign a contract. If I can succeed in that way, I think that is about the best procedure that I could take in this instance. I am telling the committee this beforehand.


Howard Charles Green: What will be the difference between that system and the cost-plus system?


Mr. Lesage:: All the difference in the world.


Mr, Fournier (Hull):: If I give a cost-plus percentage on the construction, what will happen I do not know and I do not think the hon. gentleman knows. The higher the cost, the higher the fee.


Howard Charles Green: That is true.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not like to give contracts of that kind. I like to know exactly where I am going.


Howard Charles Green: By working on the plan on the basis the minister has in mind, the contractor would get whatever the cost of the building would be, whatever it actually cost the contractor, and then in addition he would get a fixed fee?


Alphonse Fournier: That is right: His profit would be that fixed fee which I would know in advance.


Howard Charles Green: Of course that procedure would not have any tendency to bring down the actual cost of doing the work, would it?


An hon. Member:: No.


Jean Lesage: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The other method would tend to increase it.


Alphonse Fournier: It may not bring down the cost much but it would probably
Supply-Public Works have this result. When they have a fixed fee, they want to earn that fixed fee as soon as possible. That would be the incentive. They would not care about the cost so much but they would say, "If in a year we can make so much money out of this, let us do it;" and they would not let it spread over a lengthy period.


Howard Charles Green: Did I understand the minister to say that the exterior of the library would be kept the same; that is,, that it would look the same from the outside?


Alphonse Fournier: What we have in mind is to keep the exterior appearance of the library the same as it was. We will have no wooden rafters or things like that. We will have them all fireproof. I do not know how they will proceed with it but, from the exterior, it will be the same building as we had before this fire.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What about the interior?


Alphonse Fournier: The interior will be fireproof. How we will fix up those book shelves, in order to keep the wooden ornaments on the shelving, is this. I am told that they have a way of fireproofing that wood, of treating the wood with something that is fire-resistant. I am no expert in these matters, but that matter was discussed. I thought that if they could find a way to do that, it would be the best thing to do because we are trying to keep the same old library in appearance, but fireproof inside and outside.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is not only a useful building but it is a great attraction to tourists and I hope that it is kept "as is".


Alphonse Fournier: We are not unmindful of that fact.


Mr. Browne (Si. John's West):: I should like to ask the minister a question about the practice with regard to the payment for materials where a fixed fee is given the contractor. Are the bills for the materials examined by some official from the department before payment is made to the contractor or is he entitled to put in any price he likes?


Alphonse Fournier: In a case like this, when we pay the cost of everything, the finance department have what they call their audit branch. They are on the job and they handle this part of the work because that is the financial part of it. They are on the job and they handle this part of the work, because it is the financial part of it.


William Joseph Browne: Whether the contractor supplies the materials or whether the government supplies it.

Supply-Public Works


Alphonse Fournier: When the contractor gets a contract on a firm basis, well, he handles all the material part of it. That is his problem. In this case we would have it because these materials would be bought by finance or by public works on a certificate of finance, who would be right there. They have their men on the job, that is, the audit branch of finance, and as soon as we get the bills certified by the finance department we would pay them.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I notice that Ottawa is
me place in Canada where the minister's department succeeds in at least getting started on most of the projects for which money is voted from year to year. Of twenty items listed for Ottawa, only three are complete revotes, three small items, two for the mines branch and one for the Department of Agriculture. Apparently on the other seventeen the minister's department has some work in progress. Will the minister tell us why?


Alphonse Fournier: I have a good answer to that. Ottawa is the capital city. Two hundred and sixty-two members spend six months of the year here watching what is going on, and pressing for this to be done in the house. So my officials, who are listening, just get to work quicker probably than if it were out in some little place where it is never mentioned except by our officials out there. Do not compare Ottawa with Hull. Ottawa is the capital city.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Move the capital.


Alphonse Fournier: Every day in this
house somebody will speak of some building or some facility, some elevator that is not working, or some clocks that are not running well, so we have the staff here that tries to meet the wishes of the members of parliament and the population. Is that a good answer?


Joseph William Noseworthy: I was really congratulating the minister and not criticizing him in any way. Am I to understand from the remarks of the minister that the extent to which the government proceeds with works for which money is voted depends largely upon the members of parliament in the constituencies or within these premises.
. Mr. Fournier (Hull): May I ask the hon. gentleman a question? Would it not be human nature, when you have 262 people around you who are trying to find fault all over the place, that my officials do not want me to be blamed day in and day out so they get to work and I help them sometimes myself.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Will the minister tell us why he was not able to proceed with the two buildings for the mines branch for which estimates were voted last year to the extent of $50,000 each?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told by my
officials that this was not considered as urgent as the other buildings that were on the list. The sum of $50,000 is just a start. I understand that the project will run into a good many hundreds of thousands. I cannot think of any better answer than that.


Joseph William Noseworthy: There is a $50,000 revote for a chemical laboratory, and a $50,000 revote for another building for accommodation of the mines branch. There must be some reason why the minister could not get started on these.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that we did quite a bit of work for that department in the city of Ottawa, and the other departments had more pressing things, and we gave priority to the other departments. That would be the only reason, I would think.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: About three years ago I asked the minister a question and he promised to look into it. It had to do with the main heating plant and the smoke from that plant which just covers this building at times; so much so that in the parliamentary restaurant you cannot have the windows open because the soot comes in the windows and covers the tables and it also happens in the members' rooms.


Alphonse Fournier: I am glad the hon. gentleman brought that question up. This is another one of those questions where the officials do not agree among themselves as to whether we should experiment with smoke abatement in the city of Ottawa. I think we are trying some experiment some place with some company from Toronto to see what the effect is. In this city you see reports from the authorities showing that some of them believe in it while others say there is not very much to it. We have nothing that is guaranteed that will cure this. We are experimenting at the Elgin building right now.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is there not a bylaw in Ottawa which says that the smoke has to be kept down as much as possible?


Alphonse Fournier: There is a law over in my town, too, but the Woods Manufacturing just dirty my paint every year and I have to paint over. They have bylaws, and everything, but I have not found them of very much help though I am personally interested. The same thing applies here.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister given up all thought of trying to get tenders for the library?


Alphonse Fournier: Well, since the fire took place I have done quite a bit of work on this. I cannot find anybody who will advise me that they can prepare detailed plans with these specifications down to the point where any contractor would like to bid a firm price. It does not mean that we will spend more, but the risk of undertaking this on a firm price is great. Yesterday, we were speaking of people who have contracts with the government and who go bankrupt. Some other people who are contractors do not want to take those chances. If I were a contractor, after listening to everything that was explained to me, I would hesitate to undertake that job on a firm price. We have been experimenting on the quality of the material. There is steel and iron in that building that came over from Britain in 1776. We do not know what remains of the building will be used or what new materials will be needed to make it a really permanent fireproof building. This is really one instance where I think I shall get the unanimous consent of members that we are not getting into a venture that we know we cannot have executed, and a fixed fee will be the guarantee, at all events, on what it will cost, and we shall have a finance audit for the materials and work done on it.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: My understanding is that the building is far too small. Are we to understand now that we shall have a library constructed of the same size as the one that is there?


Alphonse Fournier: We have a report from the parliamentary librarians and the archivist and a committee that was set up for that purpose, that if we can excavate two tiers below the surface we shall have two floors or stackrooms for these books. The report of these men is that the space we shall have when the building is renovated will be sufficient for the parliamentary library.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: You are going underground.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That takes into account the building of a national library as well.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. Probably they are taking into account the fact that we shall have a national library in the future.


Howard Charles Green: The minister can rely on the advice he gets from the librarians and the archivist. In my opinion they are very reliable people.


Alphonse Fournier: I have named these two and the archivist.
Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: There are two other items here that I wanted to ask a question about; one is an item for $700,000 for a site for departmental buildings. Where is that? Does it cover anything more than the actual land? My other question has to do with a vote of $650,000 for testing laboratory for the minister's own department. Where is it to be? What will be the total cost? What is to be tested?


Alphonse Fournier: This item of $700,000 is to extend the site we have at Tunney's Pasture, where we now have the statistics building and three other buildings. This falls in line with the plan of the capital planning committee. This is a site, adjacent to the centre of the city, where we will centralize a good many of our activities.
I have here a list of estimated costs of that site, and the improvements to be made on it so as to bring in the ordinary services required. I have not all the details. This is an extension of the site I have mentioned. In addition to the statistics building we have two storage buildings, and are planning a further one.


Howard Charles Green: How much will be paid for the land?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told we own the site. These are the services for the buildings to be put up, and would include sewage, water distribution, excavation for heating and underground electrical work, and amounts for earth and rock grading, and filling. There is a contract for the sewage and water distribution system, for excavation, for construction of the electrical underground service. All this is under contract and is being done now. This is the amount we would spend during this fiscal year.


Howard Charles Green: The $700,000?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: What about the testing laboratory?


Alphonse Fournier: This will be a two-storey building, with basement, the main section to be 202 feet by 50 feet. It will have two wings, each of 50 feet by 96 feet. It will have a reinforced concrete frame, brick and tile walls, with brick facings and concrete trim. This is for our testing laboratory connected with the Department of Public Works. Because of the increased amount of construction, the amount of work we have to do has developed tremendously. At the moment we are operating in the basement of the west block; but we are told we must leave there because that space could be used for some other purpose.

Supply-Public Works


Howard Charles Green: Will this amount cover the total cost?


Alphonse Fournier: No. The estimated cost is $1 million. This would be the amount we expect to spend this year.


William Joseph Browne: Where is the building to be erected?


Alphonse Fournier: At the same location, Tunney's Pasture.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Has the government any vacant land adjoining the mines branch buildings, on which to erect the buildings for which money was voted last year?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes; we have expropriated the property on Booth street, to continue the properties occupied by this department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
330. Ontario (other than Ottawa), $10,500,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have thanked the minister personally for fulfilling eventually his promise that the Peterborough federal building would be erected. When does he contemplate that it will be finished?


Alphonse Fournier: The minute I finish my estimates I will make inquiries. It is quite consoling to the poor minister who is trying to make headway with his estimates to hear what the hon. member for Peterborough West has to say.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad the minister has fulfilled his promise, because I have been asking for the building for thirteen years.


Alphonse Fournier: Well, you were patient.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I have been asking for only three years; I have ten to go.


Harry Oliver White: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask two or three questions. The first will have to do with the city of London, and the other two with St. Thomas and Port Stanley. I notice that in 1952 there was a vote of $25,000 to purchase a London postal terminal, now described as the former International Harvester Company building.


Alphonse Fournier: In London the amount is required for the alteration of the International Harvester building in that city to provide accommodation near the Canadian National Railways station for the postal service. Is that what the hon. member has in mind?


Harry Oliver White: Yes.


Alphonse Fournier: With the exception of the amount for supervision, this sum seems

to cover the amount required for alterations to be made to the building. My notes show that, under an Exchequer Court award, the amount paid is $155,000. There will be about $60,000 more. We have not begun those alterations. I am asking for this amount so that we may begin.


Harry Oliver White: To date, what has been the cost of the International Harvester building? In the estimates for 195253 there was an amount of $300,000. Then there was a revote of $200,000, and I find that in this year's estimates there is a revote of $50,000.


Alphonse Fournier: The whole thing, when completed, will be $215,000. The cost of the building is $155,000; there is the sum of $50,000 for alterations and supervision, and a contingencies fund of $10,000.


Harry Oliver White: At the time the deal was being consummated there appeared to be some procrastination. The final purchase was not made from the International Harvester Company, but through some other firm that had come in and made the purchase. It cost $50,000 more than it would have otherwise.


Alphonse Fournier: My information is that we went to the Exchequer Court and got an award from that court.


Harry Oliver White: My next question deals more particularly with St. Thomas. A year ago there was an estimate for $100,000 for a new post office at that point. What progress has been made?


Alphonse Fournier: This future building, Which is not yet constructed, would be used by the Post Office Department and the customs branch, as well as the unemployment insurance commission, the Department of National Health and Welfare and the Department of Transport. We did purchase from the city, if I remember correctly, a site at a cost of $55,000. We have not made much progress, to date. The site is described as lots 7, 8 and 9, east on Mondamin street. The lots are set out on plan 179. I would rather not give a definite answer concerning the project right now.


Mr. While (Middlesex Easl):: Then, I am interested in Port Stanley, partly because of the fact that a railway runs from London to that point. I mention it, too, because my colleague is not in his seat.


Alphonse Fournier: There is no item for Port Stanley.


George Stanley White: No, but there should bfc


Alphonse Fournier: You had better sit
over here, and put it in.


Harry Oliver White: Just a moment, now. I hold in my hand return number 39 which shows that the department spent $44,200 at Port Stanley in an attempt to raise a dredge that sank there a year ago.


Alphonse Fournier: This would not be under the architects' branch. Would the hon. member wait until my engineers are here?


Harry Oliver White: There is something else I want to take up.


Alphonse Fournier: This is not the same branch of the department.


Mr. Mclvor:: As Fort William is in Ontario I should like to have assurance from the minister in connection with the buildings for customs and immigration at Pigeon River. I understand that difficulties have been encountered for which the Department of Public Works are not responsible. I was much concerned last fall when a report came out that these buildings would never be completed. People came to me about this and I told them that when the Minister of Public Works says that he will do a thing, he does it, or he gives a good reason. I have not heard any reason why he is not going to do it.
The report came out that the trans-Canada highway was going to be rerouted. I do not think that will happen but that report has been coming out for twenty years. I should like to have the assurance that the immigration officials at Pigeon River will not have to put in another winter in the building they have been living in for the last forty years.


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is required toward the construction of a customs-immigration terminal, including a warehouse and bus terminal at Pigeon River, Ontario, to provide improved accommodation for the immigration service. Plans and specifications for the proposed buildings have not yet been prepared and it is anticipated that the required accommodation will cost around $250,000. I must admit that not much has been done about it. Additional property will be needed at the international bridge adjacent to the existing building as a site for the proposed new facilities. We will give this our attention and do the best we can.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: That means that we will have these buildings before next fall. That is good enough for us.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Apparently the minister objected to my contrasting the work done by his department in Ottawa with that done in other parts of the country. Perhaps a comparison of the work done in the two central 68108-232
Supply-Public Works provinces would be more appropriate. I find that of the items listed for Ontario there are 38 revotes, while in the case of Quebec there are 21. Of the 38 revotes in Ontario, 27 are complete revotes and amount to $2,650,000. That means that last year we voted $2,650,000 for public works of one kind and another in Ontario which were not even started. In contrast with that there were only 7 or 8 of the revotes in Quebec that were not started.
I am not objecting to where the minister spends his money or where he puts up public buildings, but I do object to his department coming to parliament, as it did last year, and getting votes of over $12 million for public works in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces which were not used. In the case of prefects amounting to approximately one-half of that $12 million, nothing was done. I do not know what the total would be for all Canada, but if in the case of five provinces it amounts to $12 million I think some criticism is warranted. In the case of half that amount the department did not even begin to do any work.
That is my criticism of the department. In some provinces the minister is able to make a beginning on practically every project for which money is voted, but in the case of Ontario there were 27 communities which were promised public buildings last spring and for which the money was voted but still nothing has been done. I think that feature of the minister's department requires more explanation than has been given.


Alphonse Fournier: I will try again to convince my hon. friend that when I submit my estimates to treasury board everyone knows that I will not spend more than 80 per cent of what I am requesting. I am told by them that in the case of construction work I cannot commit the department without the assurance of these extra amounts being voted. Perhaps they are all wrong, but I think the hon. member knows that the treasury board with its financial experts are far more critical at times than members of parliament. The members of the treasury board do not make requests for public buildings while members of parliament do.
Suppose the Post Office Department makes a request for a building in a certain town which is given top priority. The member approves and the public bodies in the town request the building. We know the work we have to do during that year. I cannot convince those organizations that I should not have an amount in the estimates. I will tell my hon. friend why.

Supply-Public Works
Once an amount is in the estimates it is quite difficult to go back on your word. It may take time to put up the building, but the amount has been passed by the government, the treasury board and parliament. Take this item of $15,000 for Rothesay. As a responsible minister I think I am bound to erect that building despite what the other departments, or even my officials, may say. The building has not been put up because they have found reasons for not putting it up. They say that perhaps it could be done another way; perhaps there is enough space; perhaps it would be better to rent space.
If a minister of public works came into the committee and said: "I am asking for these amounts and I give my word that during the fiscal year I will spend every cent", I do not think he wguld be kept as minister of public works.


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister still has not explained to me why his department could make a start on all but seven projects for which money was voted last year in the case of one province and yet was not able to make a start in the case of 27 projects for which money was voted in another province.


Alphonse Fournier: Probably in the preceding year or two years ago the reverse was true. Has the hon. member looked over all the estimates since confederation?


Joseph William Noseworthy: I am considering last
year only.


Alphonse Fournier: That is the only way the hon. member can back up his argument. He would have to make a real study of the matter and take all the estimates since confederation.


Mr. Aylesworth:: Would the minister give the total cost of remodelling the customs house at Kingston, the total cost of the furnishings for the same building, and whether the work was done by tender?


Alphonse Fournier: I can give my hon. friend all that information, but it is not in these estimates. If the hon. member wishes, I will get every detail for him and have the information sent to him. We have no item here for that project at all, so I will have to ask my officials to look over the file. We will answer it for him.


Wilbert Ross Aylesworth: I understand the building is nearly completed so you will have the figures some place.


Alphonse Fournier: That is why we have not got an estimate for it. That is one of the projects where we have no revote. I will give the hon. gentleman every detail.


Wilbert Ross Aylesworth: Has it all been done without any authority?


Alphonse Fournier: No. You can be sure if I tried to do work and did not have the money it would not only be members of parliament who would check me. There is the auditor, the comptroller of the treasury, the Department of Finance and the treasury board. Do not think I am alone in this. I have company. I will undertake to give the hon. member every detail on short notice the moment 1 am through.


Mr. Ross (Hamilton East):: I want to know something about this vote of $500,000 for an office building at Hamilton. We have had that property for quite a while. What progress has been made? When are you going to call for tenders?


Alphonse Fournier: This is the new public building for veterans affairs, the unemployment insurance commission, trade and commerce, national defence, the air force, labour, transport, agriculture, national revenue, health and welfare, customs and immigration, and citizenship and immigration. This is a new item. I cannot be blamed for having a revote. It is not a revote. It was only brought in in January. I may say we have appointed an architect, Hugh D. Robertson, to prepare plans. The site acquired for the building is the block bounded by George, Caroline and Main streets. The property has a frontage of 194| feet on Caroline street and a depth of 241 feet. We brought the property for the site from the Hamilton board of education. We are having plans prepared, and the moment we have the plans and specifications we will ask for tenders.


Thomas Hambly Ross: Wait a minute. The plans have been prepared for a couple of years. When are you going to call for tenders on the job?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Before the snow flies.


Mr. Cardiff:: Just before the election.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told this item was included in the estimates for a few years and then dropped. We have now come back to it, and we did not want to put it in as a revote in order to please certain members. We expect to start work this year. I am serious.


Thomas Hambly Ross: No fooling? I see there is $500,000, but what is the estimated cost?


Alphonse Fournier: Three and a half million dollars.


Mr. Tustin:: Inasmuch as we have been talking about revotes, there is one small project under item 330 that I would not like to see

dropped as in the case raised by the hon. member for Hamilton East. About three years ago the department purchased a building in the village of Bloomfield for a post office. Last year there was a vote of $15,000 for renovating the building, but no work was commenced. I notice that it is being revoted this year. Yesterday the minister said that there was a shortage of contractors and materials, but I can assure him that there is no shortage of contractors in that district to undertake this small job. All he will have to do will be to hand a blueprint and the specifications to any one of the contractors and they will be delighted to carry out the work for him. I can assure him they will do an excellent job. It is most essential that the work be done as soon as possible because the situation is very inconvenient as it is at the present time.


Alphonse Fournier: I have good news for the hon. member. I am told that the plans are nearly completed and my chief architect says that he is going to start. It is not a very big project and we can complete it in a short time.


George James Tustin: From the smile that came over the minister's face while I was speaking, I thought that was likely the case.


Harry Oliver White: In looking further through the estimates I find that Port Stanley is mentioned.


Alphonse Fournier: Certainly, but not in the architectural branch. When I have my engineers in front of me I will be ready to answer the hon. member.


Harry Oliver White: I refrained from taking part in the administration debate for the very reason that the minister wanted to get on so that he could give us the details, but I find now that the proper thing to do is to take part in the administration debate and also get the answers when we come to the items.


Alphonse Fournier: So they are repeating themselves.


Harry Oliver White: Never mind. I find it difficult to get what I want. I notice that there is an amount of $160,000, including a revote of $75,000, set aside for work at Kagawong. As I said, I am interested in Port Stanley because of the fact-


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is dealing with the engineering branch. What he is mentioning now is in the engineering branch. I have my architects here and not my engineers. I do not want to stop the hon, member, but if we can finish 68108-232J
Supply-Public Works the architectural branch then I will have the engineering staff and will be ready to answer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
331. Manitoba, $1,450,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to ask the
minister one or two questions about the new post office building that is being erected in Winnipeg. First of all may I say that we were glad to get his answers to certain questions of mine which appear in Hansard for March 9, at pages 2731 and 2732, and which indicated that provision was being made in the construction of the building for a certain amount of off-street loading and off-street parking. As the minister knows, the problem of parking is an acute one in most of our cities, and while it might be argued that it is not the responsibility of the federal government to solve the Winnipeg parking problem still I am sure he will agree with me that no federal building should be allowed to aggravate the problem.
It is on that basis that some of us from Winnipeg have urged that the fullest possible provision for off-street parking be included in the plans for the building. After receiving a favourable answer to questions which I placed on the order paper last March, we learned that the plans for the new post office building did not include provision for a full basement. I was rather surprised when that information came to my attention. As a matter of fact I learned it in a letter from an organization known as the downtown business association of Winnipeg which, over the signature of Mr. C. A. Campbell, the president of that association, wrote to the minister on March 25. The association learned that provision was not being made for a full basement and expressed the hope that consideration would be given to revising the plans to include such provision. After hearing from the association on the matter, I wrote to the minister in support of Mr. Campbell's representations. As the minister appears not to have had the opportunity to reply to my letter yet, perhaps he might give the answer now.
Is it true that there is no provision for a full basement? If that is true, and thus far it has not been possible to change those plans to include such a provision, these Winnipeg businessmen suggest that additional parking facilities could be provided in such a basement if the post office has no use for it. As a matter of fact, any additional expenditure required could easily be recovered through the provision of parking space in that area where parking is a very serious problem. There are one or two other matters
3S56

Supply-Public Works suggested in this correspondence to which I have referred, and perhaps the minister could give a reply to those matters now.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not know what definition is given to the words "full basement" in the mind of the hon. gentleman. We did receive that correspondence, and we referred it to the architect for further study to ascertain whether or not such a thing would be feasible and economic. I am told that we will use part of that basement for the storing of post office vehicles.
I am glad the hon. member brought up this Winnipeg question. We expect to call for tenders for the excavation in the very near future. The plans are to be completed some time late in the summer or early fall. This is one of those buildings that does compare with other large buildings, even those in the capital city. The estimate I have here for that Winnipeg public building is $14,900,000, and that beats the printing bureau in Hull. You see, we are not limiting our activities to the capital city. This is a big building.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Winnipeg is a big city.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, but we have other large cities in the dominion. This project has been under consideration for some time, and the plans have been changed because we could not get the post office to give us the space they needed. This year we expect to call for tenders for the excavation and complete the plans, and next year complete the building.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The minister will forgive me if I did not follow him closely enough to understand completely what he said about the full basement. I should like to read one sentence from the letter from Mr. C. A. Campbell to the minister, dated March 25 of this year. He said:
At the same time, we were disappointed to learn that the plans provided for only a partial excavation of the basement.
Then Mr. Campbell went on to suggest not only the desirability of having a full excavation to provide for parking facilities, but the suggestion was also made that it may be worth while to think of plans for a bombproof shelter in the event that such should be necessary. Do I understand from the minister that it is still the case that there is to be only a partial excavation, or has that question been reviewed in the light of these rc presentations?


Alphonse Fournier: According to the plans this building will have a full basement, which is needed for the building. Now, we never thought of building under that basement a bomb shelter or garage for the public; that is another project. When we put up a building

for the government service, I do not know if parliament would authorize me to start building a garage for the public. I do not feel like going into the garage business in the future. If we are going to have a bomb shelter under there two or three storeys deep, that is another problem. I would have to be advised by the military authorities, or those who know something about civil defence. What I am interested in at the moment is giving Winnipeg the best building we can for the government services that are provided there.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In the light of what the minister has said may I just read another excerpt or two from this same letter, to make it clear that we are not suggesting the federal government is obligated to deal with Winnipeg's parking problem. We do suggest that the federal government should take into consideration the extent to which that building may aggravate the problem. Let me read this part of Mr. Campbell's letter:
The tenants of the building and the employees of the post office will require parking space which, if not provided in the building, will have to be found elsewhere. For this purpose alone, parking space in the building merits serious consideration.
In the same letter Mr. Campbell says:
As businessmen we are not ones to advocate unnecessary government expenditures, but this is one project where we feel the additional expenditure is not only justified but absolutely essential.
In another place in the same letter he suggests that we now have parking meters in Winnipeg and we are used to paying for our parking, so any additional expenditure would be recovered in a short period of time.


Mr. Churchill:: Mr. Chairman, I thought the minister was going to have something to say in reply to that last statement by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. I want to support what has already been said with regard to this matter. I think it is a subject which deserves serious consideration. I am not sure the minister wished to convey the impression that the department is under no obligation to provide garage facilities

I think he used those words. I do not think that enters into it at all. The problem is one of off-street parking which, in part, has been dealt with by the minister and his department in his plans.
This committee in Winnipeg which has been working on the matter has put forward a reasonable proposal. As the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has pointed out, revenue would be derived from the off-street parking in a full basement, which would offset any extra costs involved. I noticed also in the ministers remarks that he said a full basement would be provided for the requirements of the building. I think the word "full"

3S57
requires a definition. What is being requested is a complete basement under the structure that will provide for the two purposes that have been outlined.
The second purpose, I think, is deserving of very serious consideration, and that is the shelter in case of air raids. We are living in an age when this problem should be taken into consideration. It does not necessarily imply, as the minister suggested, a deeper excavation for air raid shelter purposes. An underground basement, with a properly reinforced structure overhead, will provide a certain amount of protection.
I should like further comment from the minister on this point and he might, perhaps, add an answer to this question. In the construction of public buildings across our country now, is consideration being given to the provision of bomb-proof shelters? I think that might well be considered for all our public buildings.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that we have not reached that stage of development in my department where we will ask parliament for money for the building of bomb-proof shelters. Perhaps as time goes on, we will. This is a new idea, that when I have a $14,900,000 building to put up for the service of the people of the country, you add to that a substructure the size of the building which would serve as a bomb shelter and as a garage for the public. Then you are getting into something that I have never considered. I am having enough trouble in getting the ordinary buildings erected without starting on this. My officials tell me that is the most expensive thing we can do, to build garages below the surface and man and maintain those garages. Whether they are right or wrong, I do not know. They tell me they have discussed this with the people concerned. I am told that such a project would cost over a million dollars. I do not know whether parliament would wish to give me that authority.
This is a new question. I do not say there is no merit in it when money is no object, but I have to limit myself to what parliament gives me, and I think I am asking for substantial sums right now. Oh, I would not want to discourage all good improvements for public buildings, but this is one as to which I think I should wait perhaps another session before I would undertake anything.


Gordon Minto Churchill: I do not think the minister can have it both ways. He cannot say that no consideration has been given to this-


Alphonse Fournier: It has been considered.


Gordon Minto Churchill: -and then say he would be asking for $1 million. What we are asking is this. Will consideration be given to matters
Supply-Public Works of this nature in the construction of public buildings? Simply to brush it aside with the suggestion that this will cost another million is not, I think, exactly what was in the minds of those who were asking those questions.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not want to leave a bad impression, but my officials tell me they have been considering this with a committee here in Ottawa and to date have not come to a decision. The same request might be made with respect to almost all public buildings in cities. This would be a matter of government policy on which I would not want to undertake to make a decision myself. It is quite a huge proposition.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Without pursuing the argument any further, Mr. Chairman, there is one point I should like to make clear and one question to which I should like to get a clear answer. The point I wish to make clear- and I am sure the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre agrees with me in this-is that we are not asking the government to deal with a problem that is Winnipeg's responsibility, but rather that it should be prepared to deal with a problem created by the fact that the federal post office is being placed in that area. We feel that undoubtedly it will aggravate the parking problem in that area, and that it is not inconsistent with federal responsibility to ask that consideration be given to dealing with the aggravated part of the problem.
The question to which I should like to get a clear answer is one which the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre suggested. I should like to get a precise definition as to what the minister means when he says there will be a full excavation for the purposes of the building. Let us suppose for the moment that the request made by this association is not being met. I think the minister would agree that even so, it would be less expensive to have the entire area of that city block excavated now before the building is put up rather than to leave it until later.
Therefore my question is this. When the minister says there will be a full excavation of the basement for the purposes of the building, does he mean just that portion of the city block which is necessary for what they have in mind or does he mean the basement will be excavated for the entire city block bounded by Graham, St. Mary's, Smith and Garry?


Alphonse Fournier: This building will not cover the whole block, I understand, because you have to have circulation for those trucks and vehicles that service the post office. But the whole basement ground, according to the plans, is needed for the operation of the building. What you people suggest is that I

Supply-Public Works go further underground to build this special bomb-proof shelter and garage; and that is what my officials tell me is terribly expensive and is not needed for the public building.
As to the hon. member's other thought, namely that this building will aggravate the parking situation, may I say that I suppose they have these parking problems in every city where buildings are going up, and we try to meet them as they come. What the remedy would be I do not know. I do not know what the city or the province has in mind to do. It is their capital city, as Ottawa is here. As to the building itself, I would ask hon. members to let me have a go at it and try to put it up.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We have been trying to get the minister to do that for several years.


Alphonse Fournier: I know. I am just on the brink of starting. Do not stop me.


Mr. Ross (Souris):: There is one small item here which is rather insignificant when compared with the Winnipeg post office. I should like to support the arguments just made by the other two members from Manitoba, but there is an item here for Boissevain, customs and immigration buildings. It is a revote. Some years ago there was an item in there for this purpose. It was dropped and was put back a year ago; and now it is a revote. There is a great deal of traffic on No. 10 highway through the international peace garden. I am wondering whether the minister can tell us just what the position is, or whether he has anything definite on the matter of construction there?


Alphonse Fournier: Now we have a site. Preliminary plans have been approved for that building. It will be a customs office 32 feet by 65 feet, basement and one storey; public immigration office, 32 feet by 35 feet, basement and one storey; bus terminal building, 21 feet by 74 feet, basement and one storey and rear wing 11 feet by 32 feet with concrete foundation, masonry walls, felt and gravel roof, etc. Estimated cost of the whole project would be $160,000.
After the preliminary plans have been approved I think it will take a few months to complete the plans, and then we will ask for tenders.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements ot public buildings-
333. Alberta, $2,300,000.
Mr. Quelch:: I should like to ask the minister a question with regard to the revote for Banff. Has a final decision been reached with regard to the location of the site for
[Mr. Fournier (Hull) .1
the post office at Banff? If so, where will the location be?


Alphonse Fournier: The site selected for the proposed public building consists of lots 35, 36 and 37 at the corner of Bear and Buffalo streets, and has been made available by the Department of Resources and Development. We have engaged the services of Dewar, Stevenson and Stanley, architects of Edmonton, to prepare the plans. We are waiting on the approval of the preliminary plans by the Post Office Department. The moment we get that approval we will complete the plans and ask for tenders.


Victor Quelch: It is expected to proceed with the project this year?


Alphonse Fournier: I hope so.


Victor Quelch: What will the building provide for? Will it provide only for a post office, or will there be other features to it as well?


Alphonse Fournier: They tell me that it will house the postal activities and some activities of the national film board.


Victor Quelch: I have just one other question. Can the minister say whether it is expected to proceed with the new post office at Stettler?


Alphonse Fournier: I see that we have not yet acquired the site. The site selected for the proposed building consists of the westerly 75 feet of lots 25 and 26 and the westerly 100 feet of lot 27. This gives a frontage of 75 feet on 50th avenue and a depth of 100 feet to the south line of lot 27 and a frontage on Taylor street of 150 feet. A survey and valuation of this property are being obtained by the department. We are just at that stage of purchasing it.


Mr. Thomas:: For the public building for Wetaskiwin there is a revote of $50,000 plus an additional $25,000. Can the minister tell me whether it is intended to erect a new building or to continue with the plans for renovating the old one?


Alphonse Fournier: This is a new building that we are going to put up. I am told this amount is to provide for the purchase of a site for the erection of a new public building. The post office has put this item in category A of their list of projects. At the moment we have to purchase the site and prepare the plans, and then we shall proceed with construction.


Ray Thomas: Has the site been chosen as yet?


Alphonse Fournier: I do not think we have acquired the land yet. We have only received the report on the lots that we propose to

purchase, but I have no notes on that report yet.


Ray Thomas: Is this building going to be used just as a post office, or is it intended to use it for other purposes?


Alphonse Fournier: The firm request comes from the post office, but when it is decided to have a building we ask the other departments, if they have any branches or offices there, what space they would need in the building, and I have not reached that stage yet.


Ray Thomas: The reason I ask is that there is an R.C.M.P. detachment there, and I was wondering whether it was going to be used to house them as well.


Alphonse Fournier: No, unless they request it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
334. British Columbia, $3,850,000.
Mr. Pearkes:: I wish to ask questions regarding the Nanaimo public building and the Victoria public building. With regard to Nanaimo, I do want to stress the importance of making a start on that new building. The item has been revoted for a number of years, and it is imperative that a start be made on that building in the immediate future because money is being lost every year by reason of the fact that the post office has to go out and hire temporary accommodation during rush seasons. Other offices of the government are distributed through the city, and it is really of the utmost importance that a start be made on that new building. Can the minister say whether a start will be made this year? It has been revoted too many times already.


Alphonse Fournier: Well, the trouble in this instance, as I understand it, is that when we started out on this the mounted police wanted to occupy space and we prepared our projects to cover post office, different departments and the mounted police. But now they do not wish to occupy space in that building and we have had to revise our plans. The plans are 50 per cent ready architecturally, and wq are proceeding with them. We will lose no more time now that we know who will be in that building and what space we will need.


George Randolph Pearkes: I do hope that no further time will be lost, because it is very questionable whether a post office building is a suitable building for the mounted police. I am glad to hear that the mounted police are now going elsewhere.
Supply-Public Works
I want to ask a question with regard to the Victoria public building mail-handling equipment. The new post office in Victoria was opened last year. The Prime Minister came out and informed everybody that it was a splendid building, as it is, and that it had modern equipment. Why is it necessary to expend another $60,000 on mail-handling equipment? I understand-I am not certain whether it is correct-that there is no elevator system for conveying the mail from the basement where it is delivered up to the sorting rooms which are on higher storeys. Is this $60,000 to be used to provide an elevator service?


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that in these post offices where they have conveyors for taking the mail, as the hon. member says, from the basement up to the fifth floor, the conveyors are not included in the main contract. The design for these is made after the building is put up, and space is allocated, but it comes under another heading. They have their experts in these matters. What we do after we get their designs and their specifications is to call for these tenders. Am I correct, or are my officials correct, when I say that in these post offices where there are conveyors they are a separate installation? This amount would be for that special equipment which the post office needs. It is not a part of the main contract for the building according to the plans and specifications.


George Randolph Pearkes: The point I want to make is this. This $60,000 is going to provide that carrier service? That is what this amount is for?


Alphonse Fournier: That is what I am told, and it is not comprised in the plans and specifications of the building. It is separate equipment. Once the building has been erected the post office tell us what they want there; and once they decide on this, we do it.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are any structural alterations necessary to put this equipment in?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told not. I am told that the openings for these conveyors are put in the plans, but the conveyors themselves do not form part of the building.


George Randolph Pearkes: That is satisfactory. I hope this work will be done immediately, because the men are given a lot of additional work in handling the mail from the basement up to the fifth floor of this new post office.


Alphonse Fournier: I think you are right.


George Randolph Pearkes: It is a matter of urgency. Will it be spent this year?
3660	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


George Randolph Pearkes: Has the equipment been purchased?


Alphonse Fournier: I do not think I will need a revote on this next year. I will try to spend it this year.


George Randolph Pearkes: I hope it will not be necessary to ask for a revote; perhaps you will not be here to revote it.


Howard Charles Green: There are two or three questions I should like to bring up on this vote. The first has to do with the policy of the department in regard to putting up buildings and purchasing property in centres where there is a town plan. For example, in Vancouver we have a town plan and a town planning commission. The type of building that can be put in certain areas is governed by that plan.
There has been considerable trouble with the minister's department because of the fact that on some occasions the department has erected buildings in an area where office buildings are not supposed to go. We believe the department should do its utmost to cooperate in that regard. I hope the minister will adopt the policy of not breaking down the town plan in these centres and will put his buildings in a part of the city where private individuals can construct buildings of the same type. It is very unfair for the department to go into a one-family dwelling district and put up an office building. I see no reason for the department following a practice of that kind. I hope we can have an assurance from the minister that he will not allow that in future.


Alphonse Fournier: I would not hesitate to give that assurance, because I want to keep our public relations at a high level, and would not want to lose the confidence of the people. I am told by the officials of the department that they try to conform to the planning in different towns and cities. In Vancouver we have three architects, and I would hope they would not advise us to erect buildings that would be contrary to any of the planning regulations of the city. However, I will give the assurance that the officials will co-operate with local authorities before putting up buildings.


Howard Charles Green: A further question of policy has to do with the refusal of the department to instal washroom facilities for the general public in public buildings. I realize that is a wise policy in respect of most buildings. However, in Vancouver we have what is known as the Alvin building, of which the minister has heard a good deal


in the last few years. It should have everything that could be imagined, in view of the price the government paid for it.


Alphonse Fournier: Now surely we are not going to start that again.


Howard Charles Green: This building is the headquarters of the unemployment insurance commission and the national employment service. Many people go in there each day, and frequently they must wait for hours before they receive attention from the officials. On February 9 these questions of mine appeared in Hansard:
1.	Are washroom facilities available in the Alvin building, Vancouver, British Columbia, for the use of persons waiting to interview employees of the national employment service or the unemployment insurance commission?
2.	If not, will provision be made for such facilities?
The answer to the first question was No, and to the second-
No. The Department of Public Works does not provide public washrooms in government buildings under its jurisdiction.
I can understand that in respect of most buildings that is a proper policy, but I do suggest that in a building of this type there should be washroom facilities. We had the same difficulty in connection with the immigration building at the boundary point of Douglas. The first plans did not call for any washroom facilities, but after protests had been made in the house the plans were changed and provision was made.
Different organizations in Vancouver have requested that a similar change be made in connection with the Alvin building. Can the minister tell the committee whether something can be done along this line?


Alphonse Fournier: We are certainly considering the question of having washrooms in our public buildings. However, the difficulty is to know where to stop. Once we have put washrooms in one public building, are we expected to put them in the three thousand buildings we occupy across the country? The problem is greater than it would appear at first glance. I can understand that it may have been justified in connection with the immigration building. However, I am told there are not many such buildings, indeed, that the one at Douglas may be the only one. If we do it in a building dealing with unemployment insurance, why should we not do it in a post office building?


Howard Charles Green: People do not have to wait in a post office.


Alphonse Fournier: In the small towns people will congregate at the post office until the mail is received from the train. It is a

place in which they can meet, and if washroom facilities were provided it would become a public place. It is really a complicated problem. All I can say is that the department will continue to consider it with a view to finding some solution. However, I would not be prepared to commit myself.


Howard Charles Green: I am asking only that the department consider the Alvin building.


Alphonse Fournier: We will do that; we will look into it.


Howard Charles Green: I see in the item an amount of $200,000 for a customs building at Vancouver, and $800,000 for a post office building in that city. How far has the department gone in connection with those two buildings?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that in respect of the customs building we are almost ready to advertise for public tenders. In respect of the post office, the site belongs to us and has belonged to us for some time. We are carrying out demolition in preparation for the new building. The architects, McCarter and Nairne, are preparing the plans. We are past the preliminary planning stage, and have reached the stage of preparing working drawings. We will be asking for tenders in the near future for the customs building.


Howard Charles Green: When will tenders be called for the post office building?


Alphonse Fournier: I could not give a definite date. This is another one of those Winnipeg buildings-and it will be quite a building, too. I cannot say how long the architects will require to prepare final plans and specifications. We have to have the plans completed during the year, but that is about all I can say.


Howard Charles Green: Does that mean during the present fiscal year, or the calendar year?


Alphonse Fournier: The fiscal year.


Howard Charles Green: Then it is unlikely that tenders will be called in the present fiscal year?


Alphonse Fournier: We hope tenders will be called during this fiscal year, and the contract awarded. But I cannot make any statement as to the date.


Mr. Herridge:: On February 13 I wrote the deputy minister concerning this and two or three other items. Am I likely to receive a reply before parliament dissolves?


Alphonse Fournier: When I meet my deputy minister outside the house I shall make inquiries and let the hon. member know.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Public Works
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
336. Unforeseen improvements, $1,200,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I wonder if the minister could give us an example of the kind of expenditures made under this item? I notice from the details at the back of the book that these amounts are usually pretty well spent. In the fiscal year 1951-52 the amount expended was $1,180,703. For the fiscal year 1952-53 the amount actually spent, up to December 31, plus the estimated balance for the remainder of the year, adds up to an estimated total of $1,200,000. What are the types of expenditures made under the item?


Alphonse Fournier: I have a list of the
items here. Last year we were authorized to the extent of $785,129.17, and out of that we paid $566,396.27. I have a list of about 15 pages of all these items. As an example, there was the installation of dust collectors at the central heating plant, $22,989.89; quonset huts, additional ventilation, $2,827. The list is not even typed; it is just in handwriting.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does it cover items right
across the country?


Alphonse Fournier: All over. These are
unforeseen items. Here is another one, steel grills, mint building, $1,845; new ash hoist, $6,517. These requests come in from all departments, and these small items are paid for out of this vote. I am told that except in a few cases they do not go over $10,000. The items are too small to be detailed as separate votes. I could probably have the list typed and send a copy to the hon. gentleman.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What is the procedure for
approving these items?


Alphonse Fournier: If they are within
the range provided by the statute they are approved by the officials. If the amount is small, it may be approved by the resident architect, that is if it is $200, $300, $400 or $500. If the amount is greater it would have to come to headquarters to be approved by the chief architect. If it is still greater it would be approved by the deputy minister. When it reaches a certain level the attention of the minister would be called to it. Here is an item:	Chilliwack public building, $1,683.


Stanley Howard Knowles: How many items were in excess of $10,000?


Alphonse Fournier: I think the largest
item was for the installation of the dust collectors at the central heating plant, Ottawa, $22,989. There are other items of $1,000, $458, $911, $275.
3682	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works


Gordon Francis Higgins: May I go back to item 234
and give the minister some information in connection with Canada House? This was purchased in 1947 for $32,500. The only question I want to ask is how you are able to rent it for $125 a month.


Alphonse Fournier: When we expropriate a property and then rent it we follow the principle of charging 5 per cent of the cost. Five per cent of $32,500 would be about $1,600. We are renting for $125 a month and I think we are within that principle.


Gordon Francis Higgins: But you maintain it as well. One year the cost of maintenance was $300.


Alphonse Fournier: That was spent on
the building before it was leased to the provincial government. I suppose they put some hinges on the doors.


Gordon Francis Higgins: You spent $200 last year,
and it has been leased now for four years.


Alphonse Fournier: Before the lease was signed with the province we heated the building. In 1949 we paid Imperial Oil Limited for fuel oil, $181.50; Newfoundland Light and Power Company, electric lighting, April 1 to July 16, 1949, $31.90; Ottawa Typewriter Company, one filing cabinet for high commissioner, $68.36.


Gordon Francis Higgins: There is an item for 1951-52, and it has been leased for four years.


Alphonse Fournier: We expended $34 for mothproofing of furniture, but that was before we signed the lease. We did not want our furniture to deteriorate. That was for battling the moths.


Gordon Francis Higgins: What about the $200
expenditure in 1951-52?


Alphonse Fournier: I made a mistake
when I gave you that answer; all I have is $118.17.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Was that for moths?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that that
was a mistake, that it should have been part of the cost. We do not spend anything on the building and we get a good revenue.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Why do you not sell it?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-
Engineering services-
338. Salaries, surveys, inspections, etc., $1,917,701.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Would the surveying of
Rustico harbour be included) in this item? There was an extensive survey carried out last summer by five or six men.


Alphonse Fournier: This would not be
the item under which the hon. member (Mr. Fournier (Hull).]

would get the information he requires. The details of this item will be found on page 407, where will be found the details of the salaries paid to technicians and engineers. The list continues over to page 408 and totals $1,326,776. At the end you will find that there is an amount for overtime, subsistence allowance, travel and removal expenses, materials and supplies, rentals and so forth. This is the general administration vote of the engineering branch. If you want surveys and works I think you have to go down to item 348.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: All right.


Alphonse Fournier: I will give all
explanations on item 348.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dredging, including snagboats-
340. Maintenance and operation of plant and contract and day labour works, $3,332,175.
William Joseph Browne: Can the
minister tell me how much money was spent for dredging in the different districts of Newfoundland in 1952-53?


Alphonse Fournier: In Newfoundland?


William Joseph Browne: Yes, in the various ridings. The minister gave me the information for 1951-52 in an answer that is in Hansard. I notice that the riding of
Bonavista-Twillingate got nearly half a million dollars, Burin-Burgeo, $126,000, and the rest of the districts among them got $50,000.


Alphonse Fournier: Under this vote we are spending in Newfoundland)-


William Joseph Browne: You spent
$676,000 in 1951-52. Is this the amount voted for dredging?


Alphonse Fournier: Just one moment. Contract and day labour work come under this vote, and there is $2,000 for Branch in St. John's West, $2,000 at Gaskier's, $2,000 at Daniel's Harbour in the riding of Humber -St. George's-


William Joseph Browne: Is that the vote for the coming year, 1953-54?


Alphonse Fournier: There is $2,000 for Gaskier's and $2,000 for Daniel's Harbour in Humber-St. George's for hand dredging, $2,000 in Bonavista-Twillingate, $5,000 at Long Pond in St. John's West, $1,500 at Petty Harbour in St. John's West.


William Joseph Browne: What is the last one?


Alphonse Fournier: Petty Harbour. Then there is $1,500 at St. Anthony Bight.


William Joseph Browne: Does that come under the vote of $130,000, the details of which are given on page 414?


Alphonse Fournier: I will have to explain this vote. Under this vote you get maintenance and operation of plant and contract and day labour works all over Canada. If you will refer to page 409 of the estimates that is where you will get the details of the expenditure of this money. On page 409 you will see that it starts out with one engineer, grade 7, and then continues with all the staff working in the dredging plant, numbering 484 people. We pay to these people-


William Joseph Browne: I see all
that. I do not want the minister to go into that.


Alphonse Fournier: You are satisfied with those details?


William Joseph Browne: I am not
dissatisfied with anything. I merely want to get an answer as to how much money was spent in the different ridings of Newfoundland in 1952-53. In 1951-52 there was apparently $676,000 spent.


Alphonse Fournier: Here is one answer that I am sure the hon. member wants anyway. Here is the dredging in the different ridings of Newfoundland by day labour. That would be one part of it. There is only $4,718.76. Of that amount there is $1,740 in St. John's West, $1,534.97 in Grand Falls-White Bay, $1,314.09 in Trinity-Conception and $129.70 in Grand Falls-White Bay. That is under day labour.


William Joseph Browne: There must be some mistake there. In any case, Mr. Chairman, here is what I want to draw attention to. I look upon the minister as a just man. In' 1951-52 the Secretary of State had $494,000 spent in his district for dredging, and other works brought the total to $1,098,000. I honestly believe almost that amount was spent each year in that riding. Last year $8,000 was spent in St. John's West for dredging, compared with that half a million dollars. So far as dredging is concerned, we are looking for the following items this year. I wish the minister would look them up afterward because they are not very big, and I think in justice we should have these amounts spent. First of all there is Branch, which is a fishing village almost entirely.


Alphonse Fournier: What place is that?


William Joseph Browne: Branch. Then there is Gaskier's, $2,000; Petty Harbour, which is a fishing village near St.
Supply-Public Works John's, $1,500. Then there is Trepassey, where there is a wharf, but the wharf is no good unless some dredging is done. The wharf has been built and extended by the government but unless dredging is done it is useless. Vessels cannot be brought alongside it. Therefore I plead with the minister to make a note that the dredge should operate there. I do not think the dredge operated anywhere in St. John's West last year. It cost $476,000 just to hire one dredge for six months, and I believe it was used entirely in Bonavista-Twillingate or Burin-Burgeo. Renews has had money voted but no money has been spent. Two years ago a survey was made of the harbour but there has been no dredging done yet. There is no use building a wharf there, for which money is provided, unless dredging is done.
I have seen men with poles trying to pole their way up the harbour. I do not think it is fair. I have been asking for this for four years. There is one other little place where nothing has been done. It is entirely a fishing village. It has about 75 families who are all dependent on the fishery. I refer to Little Harbdur East. All they want is a small amount of dredging, which I think could be done by day labour. I have made the recommendation and I hope the minister will keep it in mind.


Alphonse Fournier: I can tell the hon. member that in the case of Renews our dredge will be working there for two to three weeks this summer, and also at Ferry-land. Two weeks dredging will be done there with our plant.


William Joseph Browne: Do you
know which dredge that is?


Alphonse Fournier: Dredge 400.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Now that my colleague has been so successful may I also make two requests of the minister. I last raised the matter in 1951. I refer to the necessity for dredging at Avondale and Holyrood. A report has been made by your engineer, Mr. Millar, and I should like to say for him that he has been very generous in his treatment, so far as I am concerned. He is also very competent.


Alphonse Fournier: We shall certainly take these remarks into consideration, and if I can send the dredge there I will.


Mr. Balcer:: Will the minister tell us what he intends to do around Three Rivers harbour so far as dredging is concerned?


Alphonse Fournier: That does not come under public works. That is the national harbours board.

Supply-Public Works Mr. Balcer: I mean near the Yamachiche river. I think something was voted for this dredging on the Yamachiche river, but I do not think the money was spent.


Alphonse Fournier: I cannot recall if we did some dredging there.
(Translation):
The Yamachiche river; where is it?


Léon Balcer: The minister told me in his letter that his department intended to dredge the river. An amount of $500 was to be appropriated for this work, but I do not think it was ever spent.


Alphonse Fournier: We will check to see whether the work can be done and we will do it.


Léon Balcer: For my information only, could the minister tell me whether maintenance dredging at the mouth of the St. Maurice river is the responsibility of the national harbours board or of the Department of Public Works? It seems that in this case they are * passing the buck.


Alphonse Fournier: Tam told that it is the responsibility of the national harbours board and not of the Department of Public Works.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dredging-*
341. New plant and equipment, $1,726,300.
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, this is a vote
which provides for the acquisition of new plant and equipment. Is the department procuring any new dredges for the west coast?


Alphonse Fournier: I understand there is an amount of $300,000 in that vote which would go toward the replacement of dredge No. 305, the King Edward. This dredge was built in about 1901, and it is being replaced.
I am told that the plans for this new dredge are practically completed, and we will let the contract this summer.


Howard Charles Green: Will the dredging in the first
narrows of Vancouver harbour be done by a government dredge or by contract?


Alphonse Fournier: Contract. The
government has n6 dredges available to do work of that type. We have not the equipment. There are a good many of these companies that take dredging contracts out [DOT]on the west coast. We will ask for tenders.
I am told that we have no equipment for deep dredging.


Albany M. Robichaud: May I ask the minister
how many departmental dredges there are now in New Brunswick?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that this
is the first time in fifteen years that question has been put to the department. We usually have a list of the names and numbers of the dredges. Would the hon. member accept this information if I have it sent to him? I do not think I have it in the books.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Roads and bridges-
345. Maintenance and operation, $386,936.
Howard Charles Green: Can the minister say whether
any progress has been made with regard to an agreement for the replacement of the Marpole bridge in Vancouver?


Alphonse Fournier: We have no Marpole bridge on the list of bridges.


Howard Charles Green: No, but negotiations have
been under way for some years for the replacement of the bridge on the basis of the federal government, the provincial government and the city of Vancouver contributing different amounts to the cost.


Alphonse Fournier: If the hon. gentleman waits for the Department of Transport estimates I think he will get a more satisfactory answer, because this bridge would lead to the island airport. It is that department which would be interested.


Howard Charles Green: It would have nothing to do
with the Department of Public Works?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects-
348. Newfoundland, $1,600,000.
William Joseph Browne: This item has to do with major works in Newfoundland, improvements in harbours and river works.
I notice that there is a vote of about $1,600,000, in which would be included some revotes. The total amount voted for St. John's West this year, not including the revotes, would be $19,000. There were two places where I recommended work should be started which are not included. I do not know why they are not included. They have been recommended by the district engineer, who has been very appreciative of the local difficulties.
The first project is at Calvert, and the amount is small. It is only $10,500. This is a fishing village and there is no public wharf. There used to be one, but it has disappeared. A private party has a wharf there which he is allowing the fishermen to

use, and which I believe he may be willing to let the department use as the basis for a new wharf.
The other project is at a place called Reginaville, about which I have had some correspondence with the minister, and with which I think he is familiar. This is also a fishing centre, but it is an exposed place. The fishermen have to let their boats ride out in the open sea, and for an expenditure, recommended by the district engineer, of $30,000 a harbour could be made by digging a channel through the beach. I trust these two matters will receive due consideration, and perhaps the minister could put them in his supplementary estimates.


Alphonse Fournier: They may come
under the general vote. I am told that one of them would be a very small project which would be taken out of the general vote. We shall certainly give that consideration.


William Joseph Browne: There is
only one other matter about which I should like to ask the minister, and that is in regard to Long Harbour, where the Department of Fisheries is going to repair a wharf in front of the cold storage plant. I asked for an extension so the fishermen could back up their trucks and take on bait supplies.


Alphonse Fournier: We can look into
that, too.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I should like to direct the
minister's attention to one major problem which I have had for some time, and that is the terminal facilities at Bell island. The minister will recall that I presented a formal petition shortly before Christmas asking for proper terminal facilities for Bell island. In case the minister has forgotten the situation, Bell island is the place where the iron ore mine has been in operation for about 50 years. It supplies the blast furnaces at Sydney, as well as a lot of other blast furnaces. It is a community of over 11,000, and the only way they have of bringing in supplies of all kinds is by water and over these wharves that are there now. They are not in very good condition. The citizens have met, and as a result of their meeting I presented this petition to the house in December.
In the present estimate-the first time that St. John's East has really obtained a fair deal, I may say-you have set up a fund of $250,000 for the construction of one work. As I understand the position, your engineer in Newfoundland, Mr. Millar, made a survey of Portugal Cove and reported that it would cost $500,000 to put a proper wharf there and build a roadway approaching the wharf; and that through some deal that was made-
Supply-Public Works I assume through the department-Mr. Millar wrote the deputy minister of public works in the provincial government in March of 1952 and submitted this offer of 50 per cent of the cost. I understand, and the minister can correct me if that is not the correct position, that the cost was to be $500,000 and that the federal government was prepared to put up half the cost. I think that is correct, is it not? Does the minister say that is not correct?


Alphonse Fournier: That is Portugal Cove. That is not Bell island.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Yes. I am correct in that point?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


Gordon Francis Higgins: May I make a plea for a proper terminal for Bell island?


Alphonse Fournier: Our engineer has been instructed to make a report oh Bell island. We have not made our decision yet, and will not do so until we get that report.


Gordon Francis Higgins: A new ferry is being purchased by a private operating company, and that new ferry will require proper terminal facilities. It is not for the ferry, by the way. This wharf will be used by all kinds of ships, and it will also be used by fishermen. It will not come within that particular category known as a ferry wharf. I can assure the minister of that. But the need is great. If the minister would do a great right and a little wrong, I think it would be fine for the people of Bell island. I will not bother the minister any more about small things if he will do that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering branch-
Acquisition, construction and improvements o£ harbour and river works-
350. Prince Edward Island, $1,800,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I want to get a little bit of information on this item. According to the details I notice that a certain amount is provided for Pinette wharf, or for the landing there. Last year a certain amount was spent there. I should like to know whether the work was done by contract or by the regular patronage system.


Alphonse Fournier: This work will be done by day "labour and will cost $10,500.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Just by day labour?


Alphonse Fournier: Day labour, under the supervision of our engineer.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: There is another item there about which I should like to get some information. I refer to Point Prim. I notice

Supply-Public Works there is a revote there. What amount of repairs was done there last year?


Alphonse Fournier: 


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: But there was a much larger vote.


Alphonse Fournier: We have given out a contract for $19,282.50 to the lowest bidder, Morrison and MacRae Limited.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Will this be done by day labour too?


Alphonse Fournier: No. This is a contract publicly advertised, and the lowest tenderer was Morrison and MacRae for $19,582.50.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: As to both those jobs last year some people were hard up for work, but unless they were dyed in the wool Grits they could not get a job at all.


Alphonse Fournier: They generally vote for the hon. member anyway.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I tried to get a couple of returned men on there-they were good citizens, I may say-but they could not get a look-in on either of those jobs. I do not like to see any of these departments going back to the old patronage system and doing away with the tender system.


Alphonse Fournier: This is a contract on a firm price.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I know it is a contract.


Alphonse Fournier: I have the same thing in my riding, and they do not want my friends to work on the job.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: But you could control who
might get to work on them, whereas I cannot. There is another item in which I am interested, namely Rustico harbour. A while ago I was asking about the survey that was made there last summer. I do not know whether or not it comes under the Department of Public Works, but in any event an extensive survey was made of the harbour. First of all the breakwater was rebuilt. That was done on a contract that is completed. Then there was the survey. I notice that this year there is a vote of $100,000. Last year the survey was made, and it has been extremely difficult to get any report on why they are making the survey. Is it to build a bridge across the harbour to connect the national park of Cavendish and Rustico with Brackley Beach? However, the survey ought to give us some idea as to why it has been done. I also notice that a survey was being made of tidal water. That took over a month. I have not been able to get details from any other department, and I thought perhaps I could get them from the Department of Public Works.


Alphonse Fournier: Is this a revote? No, this is a new item. I see that there is a survey and investigation being conducted, and here is a part of the report of our engineer.
The development of a definite proposal for the closure of Little harbour, Rustico, should be deferred until the report of the Nova Scotia technical college science service is received. A report from the department's engineer, H. E. Miller, has just come in, in which he recommends that provision for 1953-54, to include continuation of the investigation in actual harbour developments, be made in the amount of $170,000. As it appears unlikely that any large project would be completed during 1953-54 it is recommended that an item of $100,000 toward harbour improvements at Rustico be included in the estimates of 1953-54. That is following this survey and investigation, and it is recommended that we do this work. I think this is one of the dreams of the hon. gentleman. He has spoken many times in the house about this matter. Now he is near to his dream becoming a reality. He will see this work done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
351. New Brunswick, $2,500,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: With regard to the accommodation for the ferry at Campbellton, the minister will remember that I have raised this matter several times in the past. At one time people thought a bridge might be constructed there. I believe they are still anxious to have a bridge constructed between Campbellton and Cross Point. I notice that this item provides for the accommodation for a ferry. Have they abandoned the idea of construction of a bridge from Campbellton to Cross Point in Quebec, or what is the situation?


Alphonse Fournier: As the hon. gentleman knows, many representations have been made to the department and the government to have this bridge at Cross Point-Campbellton. After the provincial elections last summer I had the pleasure of receiving in my office the present premier of New Brunswick, with his minister of finance and the local member at Campbellton. We had quite a conversation about this project, and I gave him all the information I could. I mentioned to them that if the province agreed to put up one-third on a project of $1,500,000, and the other province the same amount, and we would put in that amount, the project would be considered. We had a most agreeable conference, but no practical result has come out of it.

These interprovincial bridges are three-way operations. Sometimes it is difficult to get the three minds together to agree on what should be done, but I am still open for any representations, and I would be pleased to speak to my colleagues on any proposal the provinces might make to me. Pending that, we will have to have a ferry.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I might say that when this was brought up in 1951 the ex-premier of New Brunswick, Mr. McNair, thought it was the federal government's responsibility. He quoted the British North America Act and some other authorities which were very convincing. At that time the Minister of Public Works said that he would get an opinion from the Department of Justice, which I do not think we have ever had brought down. At page 4473 of Hansard of 1951 the minister told me:
But in any event I will make a thorough study of that legal opinion and will follow it when the occasion arises.
Has he a definite opinion of the authorities as to the construction of these bridges between different provinces? Subsection 10 of section 92 of the British North America Act reads as follows:
(a) Lines of steam or other ships, railways, canals, telegraphs and other works and undertakings connecting the province with any other or others of the provinces, or extending beyond the limits of the province.
Ex-premier McNair of New Brunswick contended that under that section these bridges were the responsibility of the federal government. Has the minister an opinion from the legal department of the federal government in this connection?


Alphonse Fournier: If you want to know my personal opinion, I recall all that correspondence with Premier McNair in which he said the federal government was responsible for every interprovincial bridge, and he quoted that section of the British North America Act. I looked at that myself, and I would perhaps think there was some weight in his opinion, but I would not want to express my own. I know that with respect to all these bridges in the past the provinces have agreed with the federal government to make their contribution to the cost of erection. Why New Brunswick would not do as Ontario and Quebec have done, I do not know. It takes time. You never agree at the first meeting, but we do get results after a certain time.
My problem in that district is that if you look over it you will find that the population is not too large, and when you think of the expenditure involved I do not know what the decision of the hon. gentleman would be.
Supply-Public Works I have discussed this with the premiers, and when we get down to real cold facts they are not too hasty about their decisions any more than I am. Personally I should like to see a bridge there. I visited the place and have had the chance of making political speeches in that district, but I have not yet made up my mind to tell my colleagues we will spend the whole amount. A little cooperation from the provinces sometimes is appreciated, you know.


Albany M. Robichaud: In connection with this bridge which is in the neighbouring county to mine, I may say I gladly extend an invitation to the Minister of Public Works to come and make as many political speeches as he wishes in the county of Restigouche, as long as he keeps clear of Gloucester.
I wish to add this to the remarks already made by the hon. member for Royal. Camp-bellton is quite a substantial town. It has quite a population. I will admit that on the Quebec side Cross Point is only a small village. But I think the minister should bear in mind that a considerable number of tourists cross from Campbellton to the Quebec side, not only in Canadian cars but United States tourists as well. This is the main thoroughfare, and I submit these factors should be considered by the minister-


Alphonse Fournier: And by the provinces as well.


Albany M. Robichaud: Yes; I quite admit they
should be considered by the provinces. I know the province of New Brunswick is quite willing to co-operate. I cannot say anything for Quebec. This factor should be considered. While the village on the Quebec side is small, yet a considerable number of people use this highway, and they would use this bridge to go to Quebec and to come back from Quebec to New Brunswick.
There is another matter I should like to bring to the attention of the minister.


An hon. Member:: Six o'clock.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Albany M. Robichaud: When the committee rose at six o'clock I was about to draw three matters to the attention of the minister, because they affect the interests of my constituency of Gloucester. Before doing so, however, I should like to correct a faux pas I made this afternoon in limiting my invitation to the minister to visit the neighbouring county of Restigouche. Let me assure him that the doors of Gloucester county are always

Supply

Public Works open to him. As a matter of fact my submission is that counties such as ours, with such great needs for federal public works, should be visited occasionally by the Minister of Public Works.
The first matter I would submit to the attention of the minister is one dealing with new undertakings. I know I am treading on dangerous ground when I refer to new undertakings. However, these are new works which I submit are of vital importance to three very important fishing communities in the northwestern section of my county of Gloucester.
I would ask the minister to consider seriously the possibility of constructing landing accommodation and providing shelters for our fishermen at Miscou Lighthouse or Miscou Point where there is an almost natural harbour provided at Lake Fry. I wish also to underline the necessity of providing similar accommodation for fishermen at Island River and Little Pokemouche.
Second, I would stress the importance of major repairs to three very important public wharves, those at Shippigan, Lameque and Lower Caraquet. I hope the minister will see fit to place something in the supplementary estimates to provide these wharves with their much-needed repairs.
Finally I would stress again the importance of dredging Shippigan gully. I would state that Shippigan gully is the most important entrance for the whole fishing fleet of Gloucester county, as it is the gateway between the gulf of St. Lawrence with its great fishing banks and Shippigan harbour, and thence to the Baie de Chaleur. I am informed there has been absolutely no dredging at Shippigan gully for the last five years. With the moving sands and strong currents at that point, it is high time something was done.
These were the three matters I wished to submit to the minister. Before taking my seat I would ask him to explain why the estimates for 1953-54 show a decrease of 8445,000 for New Brunswick, but an increase of $785,000 for Nova Scotia. I know the minister has already intimated that he does not like comparisons. I do not wish to elaborate upon any such comparisons, and I am not at all jealous of what Nova Scotia has received. However, I would ask for an explanation as to why New Brunswick, with such great needs, should this year be faced with a decrease in the estimates, when at the same time there is an increase for Nova Scotia.


Alphonse Fournier: One explanation is that we do not expect to spend there this year more than the amount we have placed
(Mr. Robichaud.l
in the estimates. The hon. member has. said that I do not like comparisons. That is true. One looks at expenditures for his own province or his own constituency and compares the amount spent there with what is spent elsewhere. But it must be kept in mind that all these items in the estimates are for works that are needed; and we are trying to do the best we can to have them completed.
Last year the amount of $2,945,000 was set aside for New Brunswick. I recall that an hon. member from another province said to me, "Why is there so much for New Brunswick, and so little for us?" I feel these comparisons are not fair. We try to use our best judgment, in an effort to be fair to all.
The hon. member has extended an invitation to me to visit his province. He will realize, however, that I am a little shy about it, because when he spoke the other evening he almost appointed me to a court.


Albany M. Robichaud: And I think the minister will land there before long.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
353. Ontario, $7,346,000.
Harry Oliver White: I should like to repeat the questions I asked the minister earlier today. Anyone who tries to follow my remarks as they are set out in Hansard
may reach the conclusion that they go from Genesis to The Revelation, because we begin one place and end somewhere else. I have been looking over the answers the minister gave regarding the International Harvester building at London, and I would renew my question by asking how much was actually paid for the property.


Alphonse Fournier: The sum of $155,000, by an award of the exchequer court.


Harry Oliver White: Part of the city of London is in the constituency of Middlesex East. That city is interested in the port at Port Stanley, and the city of St. Thomas also has an interest there. I bring this matter to the attention of the committee partly because my roommate and colleague is unavoidably absent, attending a funeral.
I notice in the estimates that there is an item of $126,000 for the harbour at Port Stanley. Last May one of the government dredges sank in that harbour, and I have noticed in a return to the hon. member for Elgin that $44,200 was spent in an effort either to raise or move the dredge. Nothing has been accomplished.

I would point out also that there is an item of $160,000 for wharf construction at Kaga-wong. I suppose the minister and hon. members will wonder why I am jumping from Port Stanley to Kagawong, but I would like the minister to tell me a little more about this particular harbour. Is there a fishing fleet located there, and what commercial boats use the harbour?


Alphonse Fournier: The vote this year for Port Stanley is $126,400, of which $68,400 is to provide for yearly maintenance dredging formerly performed by dredge No. 117 which sank in 1952. There is no departmental dredge available to do this work. The balance is to provide construction of a steel pile wall.
The amount of $160,000 for Kagawong includes a revote of $75,000. This is required for the reconstruction of the wharf which is in a badly deteriorated condition due to storm, ice and wave action. The structure was built in 1920. It has been held together by means of temporary repairs carried out annually and has now reached a stage of disintegration where temporary repairs are no longer effective. The approach for a distance of 40 feet has become separated from the pile caps. This work has been strongly recommended by my officials. As I say, the wharf was built in 1920 and we do not think it should be allowed to disappear. The need is there and the officials recommend that there be an estimate in order that we proceed with the reconstruction.


Harry Oliver White: Is there a fishing fleet anywhere along that coast?


Alphonse Fournier: The ships of the Dominion Transportation Company make regular calls at this port during the navigation season, which opens about the middle of April and closes about the 1st of December. Probably the hon. gentleman knows more about the place than I do. The wharf was constructed some time ago and there seems to be some traffic there by the Dominion Transportation Company. I rely upon the recommendation of the district engineer, who strongly recommended this work.


Harry Oliver White: The reason I am curious about this is that I made a visit there last summer and made some inquiries about this work. Back in the days when the wharf was built there used to be a fishing fleet in those waters, but apparently with our scientific developments they have fished out the waters and the industry has disappeared. I was told also that there was not a great deal of commercial shipping coming into the harbour.
It seems curious with all the ports we have along the great lakes and with the development of the St. Lawrence seaway in the offing,
Supply-Public Works we should not be spending more on some of these great lakes ports which will probably be ports of call for transatlantic freighters.
There is another curious coincidence. This port happens to be located in the riding of the minister of external affairs, and there were some suggestions made to me that considerable pressure may have been brought on the department to improve that harbour. The minister did not say whether they are planning to raise the sunken dredge at Port Stanley.


Alphonse Fournier: The department
engaged the best contractor in this line but he has not succeeded in refloating the dredge. The hon. member says these works are being done in certain ridings. He would be surprised to know how many times people say to me, "How come you are doing this work in that riding when it is not represented by someone who sits over here?" I get quite indifferent when I receive a report that seems to justify certain work being done. I am not always hasty in doing it, and in this case the hon. member will notice that there was an item last year and the work has not been started as yet. We take great pains to see if the need exists before we spend the money.


Harry Oliver White: A considerable number of the men who were employed on the sunken dredge are out of work. There was a possibility that another dredge would be sent up to take care of Port Burwell, Port Bruce and Port Stanley this summer. With this dredge being sunk in the harbour there is a chance the channel may silt up and create a menace to navigation. The men who were employed on the boat lost their personal belongings, and I believe a request was made to the department for compensation.


Alphonse Fournier: That would not be under my department; that would be a matter for treasury board, which operates under certain principles in connection with losses of personal property. I am told there were 15 people working on that dredge, and I am sorry if they have not found work. I hope that as time goes on they will not suffer too much from that.


Harry Oliver White: Is there some way in which these labourers could recover their losses?


Alphonse Fournier: They present a sworn statement giving the details of their losses. In my department we generally make a recommendation to treasury board and abide by their decision. My officials tell me that this claim was passed on to treasury board and the answer was that in cases like this they should insure their effects. It was stated that if we started to pay in all cases of this
3670	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works kind we would not know where to stop. I cannot recall this particular case, but I am always sympathetic to people who lose things and I try to help them along.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does that include losing elections?


Alphonse Fournier: No, that is general; I do not think about elections.


Harry Oliver White: Is the minister a member of treasury board?


Alphonse Fournier: I do not believe I am called upon to-I could not answer that question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Don't you know?


Joseph William Noseworthy: I notice that there is an item of $160,000 for repairs to the Burlington breakwaters and piers. Has the minister any information as to when those were built and how much money has been spent on Burlington harbour in the last few years? It seems to me that these piers are of quite recent construction.


Alphonse Fournier: In 1952-53 a section 60 feet in length was repaired under a contract with McNamara Construction Company Limited. The probable expenditure is $16,000, chargeable to harbours and rivers generally. The seawall was originally constructed in 1913-16, and was extended in 1926. It is 14 feet wide and 1,827 feet long. We have an amount here of $100,000-I hope this is not a revote-to provide for urgent repairs to the centre section of the breakwater to prevent further damage to the structure and town property.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Has the minister any idea what use is made of these piers and breakwaters? I drive by them quite often and I have never seen anything tied up to them except seagulls.


Alphonse Fournier: The purpose is to provide protection for the lake embankment comprising the central portion of the town. In recent years this structure has also provided a harbour for the use of small craft.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
harbour and river works -
355. Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $178,000.
John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ask one or two questions with respect to this item. To begin with, I should like to ask the minister what is the nature of the work to be done at Lac La Ronge. What is the purpose of it? What has been the expenditure to date on the project in question, and what is the anticipated expenditure?


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is required for improvements consisting mainly of the construction of a wharf with a landing head or "L" to provide urgently needed facilities for ever-increasing water-borne traffic. La Ronge is the centre of a rapidly expanding area of various activities consisting of mining, fishing and the tourist trade. It is the northern terminus of a road from Prince Albert. It is also a base for aircraft on both wheels and pontoons. All freight for more northerly points passes through La Ronge and is transshipped by boat, cat-train or plane, all of which would use the proposed landing facilities.
The proposed work consists of the construction of a rock-filled timber cribwork wharf 66 feet by 16 feet with a landing head or "L" 59 feet by 16 feet and a rock and gravel approach 55 feet long. The estimated cost is $10,000, and the work is to be done by day labour.


John George Diefenbaker: I am not one of those who make application for expenditures from time to time unless I believe those expenditures will be self-liquidating in their result. I think this is a very worthy piece of work on the part of the minister, and one that deserves further expansion. I believe the development that is taking place in northern Saskatchewan is unknown to the people of Canada generally, particularly in connection with uranium prospecting and development. Lac La Ronge serves that northern area and I should like to see extensive improvements made there, because the situation today is such that the available facilities are not capable of meeting the demands of uranium and other mining developments.
During recent years most of the developments in northern Saskatchewan have been advantageous not particularly to northern Saskatchewan but generally speaking to the city of Edmonton. We in northern Saskatchewan believe that, with the potential uranium area in that part of Canada, the area immediately adjacent to and north and west of Lac La Ronge, if anticipated prospects are eventually achieved that area will produce uranium to such an extent within a very few years that it will be the greatest uranium area in all the world. That is not exaggeration.
Recently when I was in New York, as were two or three of the ministers of the crown, in connection with the Town Hall meetings, I had the opportunity of meeting various New York industrialists. They realize something of the potentialities of northern Saskatchewan. When I ask for improvements which will assure a greater measure of air transportation there, I do not lose

sight of the fact that in addition to facilities for air transportation, facilities should also be made available, in the interests of the country as a whole and the common aims of the NATO countries, to achieve the largest potential possible in mineral development, particularly uranium development. I think the federal government should give consideration not only to assistance such as this, which is infinitesimal compared with the possibilities of the area, but that there should be cooperation between the Department of Public Works and the defence department in providing landing facilities in the area, and also co-operation with the province of Saskatchewan in the building of roads so that ground transportation will be available.
As it is now, the tremendous impetus that would be given to the country as a whole through uranium, gold and other mineral production will be held back unless something in the nature of a national development policy is achieved through co-operation between the dominion and provincial governments, in which policy the Department of Public Works will play its part. This item of $10,000 is more or less a token item. It will achieve all that $10,000 can achieve in providing the necessary water facilities to permit the landing of aircraft, in particular. But I do impress upon the minister, and through him the government, the need of something being done. Now that uranium is required as it has never been required before, and with a uranium potential available unequalled anywhere in the world, cooperation should be achieved between the Department of Public Works and the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys so that the available resources may be exploited for the benefit of our country and the achievement of our defence purposes.
I do not want to speak at length, but I wish to place this matter before the minister. I know his personal interest in achieving a national policy for Canada under which each of us recognizes the need of full development in every other part of Canada. In recent months mineral resources have been discovered and development has been taking place in all provinces of Canada except one. This area of northern Saskatchewan, with its tremendous possibilities in the world of today, with the challenge of communism having been held back in large measure by the fact that we are becoming powerful in atomic weapons, is an area that deserves full support from the government.
An item like this, welcome as it is, is but a drop in the bucket compared with the expenditure that should be made there in order to assure that available resources will
Supply-Public Works be developed. After all resources, however great, of minerals or uranium or other metals that go into the forging of the shield of freedom will be worthless should communism march, unless they have in fact been developed.
One thing that is holding back development in northern Saskatchewan is the lack of available transportation facilities on land. We have them in the air, although we have no airport facilities worthy of the name in the city of Prince Albert which is the northern outpost in our province. This vote is but the beginning, I hope, of further votes that will have to be made if the available resources, now estimated at $200 million a year in uranium production, are to be made available for our common defence.


Ray Thomas: I wonder if the minister could give us some of the details in connection with this item under "wharves" for Ma-Me-O Beach? It should be easy to find because it is the only expenditure under this item in Alberta.


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is required for improvements to the wharf consisting of the construction of a cribwork pierhead and a rock causeway condition. The submerged ballast from the outer 330 feet is a serious hazard to navigation and must be removed. The ballast of the inner 220 feet remains above the water and will form the base for the causeway. The cribwork pierhead will provide landing facilities for the shallow draught boats now used on the lake. During last year approximately 250,000 pounds of fish with a value of $30,000 were taken commercially, being processed and shipped through Ma-Me-O Beach.


Ray Thomas: That is not going to be quite as long as the original wharf. You intend taking off about 100 feet of ballast on the end and just running the wharf out about 240 feet?


Alphonse Fournier: I think it is 330 feet. I do not know enough about the details of the construction. What we are going to do is remove submerged rock ballast for a distance of 330 feet, placing same in a causeway 220 feet long from shore, and gravel-surfacing it. We shall also undertake construction of an open-faced cribwork pierhead 17 feet by 33 feet.


Ray Thomas: I want to thank the minister for this because, as I pointed out last year and as the minister indicated in his report tonight, there has been a great deal of damage done to the boats on that lake as a result of these rocks. The condition has been dangerous for quite a number of years. I know

Supply-Public Works the people of Ma-Me-O Beach, and those who have summer cottages there, will appreciate this expenditure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
356. British Columbia and Yukon, $6,000,000.
Angus MacInnis: There is a small item under this vote to provide a harbour at False creek. I notice that this is a revote, and I wonder if the minister would let me know if a site has been chosen for that fishing wharf?


Alphonse Fournier: Would the hon. member tell me the name of the place?


Angus MacInnis: It is False creek. The minister may recall that it is in the constituency of the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard. I know he has had considerable correspondence with the minister about it. I suppose the hon. member is fence-mending in British Columbia at the moment, and is not here.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Have those fellows any fences left?


Edmund Davie Fulton: You are doing a certain amount of it yourself out there.


Alphonse Fournier: This revote of $100,000 is required toward the cost of establishing a harbour and storage space for fishing gear at False creek, Vancouver, for the large fleet of fishing boats operating from this place. The total estimated cost of the project is $725,000. There is a definite lack of mooring space and harbour facilities for the larger type of fishing vessel, and accommodation is required for a minimum of 200 such boats. Total value of boats and gear is approximately $3 million. The proposed work has been urged by the fishing vessel owners' association of B.C., Vancouver city council, Hon. Mr. Mayhew, the hon. member for Vancouver East and the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard. Those are the people who have been pressing for this work.
The proposed work consists of dredging a mooring basin, constructing creosoted timber bulkhead, backfilling and bank excavation, constructing wharf, floats, gangways, three sheds for storage of fishing gear, toilet and washroom facilities, water and light fixtures and roadways. The estimated cost is as follows: Purchase of land, $48,000; dredging, $287,500; bulkhead, floats, sheds, backfilling roads, etc., $382,700; surveys and inspections, $6,800.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to know how much of that $750,000 has been expended to date?
[Mr. Thomas.1


Alphonse Fournier: According to my report this project has been delayed due to the difficulty in acquiring the necessary site and opposition from interests presently operating there. Steps are being taken to acquire the necessary land in the Kitsilano Indian reserve through the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. However, no agreement has yet been reached.


Angus MacInnis: One more question. Can the minister say whether the work will be carried on there now? We have been asking for it for a long time and it has been agreed to. Can the minister say it will be carried on with as much dispatch as possible?


Alphonse Fournier: It is the intention of the department to proceed with this work. We are trying to negotiate the purchase of this site. We are seriously interested in this project.


Howard Charles Green: On that point, are the plans ready yet?


Alphonse Fournier: The expenditure of money for dredging would not entail very much planning, and that amounts to $278,000. The site will cost $48,000, and that would not need very much planning. The bulkhead, floats, sheds, backfilling of roads and so on will cost $382,000, and I do not think the planning for that would take very long. I am told that if we had the site we could have the plans ready by summer.


Howard Charles Green: When is it expected that agreement will be reached with the Indian affairs branch?


Alphonse Fournier: My officials tell me we are negotiating and writing to that department, pressing for an agreement.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us any assurance that work will be commenced this year, because there have been delays already for two or three years. There is a great need for this dock.


Alphonse Fournier: I am fearful about giving assurances right and left, because tomorrow morning I will wake up and read in Hansard that I am committed to a lot of things. I did that once with the hon. member for Queens, Prince Edward Island, and I have regretted it ever since. I think the hon. member should take my assurance that we are serious about this thing, and let it go at that.


Howard Charles Green: This business of being serious does not seem to get us very far in a great many cases. I should like to ask the minister about the vote for the Marpole wharf; that

is a revote of $32,000. Why was the work not done during the last fiscal year?


Alphonse Fournier: This revote is required to provide for the construction of the wharf, which is in a state of complete disrepair; and it is imperative-that is what we say- that steps be taken to renew it as soon as possible. Having said that, we are going to go ahead with this. Contract plans were prepared, but as they embraced a larger area than the original wharf and overran the boundaries of foreshore property allocated to the department, it has been necessary to negotiate with persons having rights on the adjoining foreshore areas before reconstruction of the wharf could proceed. It is anticipated that these legal matters will be settled in the near future, with public tenders being called so work can be undertaken early in 1953-54.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister tell us under what department there will be a vote to pay for the committee which has been set up to study the problem of widening the harbour entrance at Vancouver and removing Ripple rock? The Minister of Public Works apparently has been able to wash his hands of Ripple rock.


Alphonse Fournier: After spending a million on the project.


Mr. Adamson:: You surely cannot wash your hands on Ripple rock. It would be safer if you could.


Howard Charles Green: On February 25 an announcement was made in the house by the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the effect that a committee had been set up to study these two problems. In the estimates of the Minister of Public Works I see no vote for the work of that committee. In what way will that study be financed?


Alphonse Fournier: The main estimates had been tabled before the decision had been taken. That explains why the hon. member does not see the item in the main estimates. There will probably be an item in the supplementary estimates. The only thing I can tell the hon. gentleman is that it will not come under my department.


Howard Charles Green: Neither the widening of the harbour entrance nor the removal of Ripple rock?


Alphonse Fournier: I cannot have an estimate for the widening of the harbour before I get the report. Parliament would refuse to give me that money. I will base that estimate on the report of this committee. I have an item in the supplementary estimates for the dredging of the first narrows; but
Supply-Public Works for the widening I have to wait until I get a report from this committee. I understand that national research is heading this committee composed of personnel from the national harbours board, Department of Transport, Department of Public Works and national research council.


Howard Charles Green: Any work actually done in widening the harbour entrance or on Ripple rock will be financed through the Department of Public Works?


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, no. I did finance Ripple rock for quite a while, and I am not going to finance it any more.


Howard Charles Green: The minister did not get very far with it.


Alphonse Fournier: No. I got so far
that I spent a million; and if I had listened to members of the opposition I would have spent many more millions, but I stopped. I had to spend a day on that Ripple rock matter to convince the members that I could not continue spending the public's money on a rock that was immovable. A study is being made. They are taking the best men they have, even out of the universities, to study this problem. Who will undertake the work, the government has not decided yet. We are waiting for this report to see what should be done. Then as time goes on you will see an item in the estimates. Next year I will probably have something to do with that.


Howard Charles Green: Then the minister may have Ripple rock back on his doorstep after all?


Alphonse Fournier: If I can help it, I am not going to touch it. I can tell the hon. member that. Let someone else handle that rock for once.


The Chairman:: The hon. member for
Kootenay West.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have been trying to ask a question for half an hour. What amounts are included in this vote for the dredging of the Arrow lakes and clearing the Duncan river? I have one more question to ask while I am on my feet.


Alphonse Fournier: I am sorry but I must tell the hon. gentleman that I have not the book here. Any dredging on the Arrow lakes in British Columbia would be under the dredging vote. This is not the dredging vote which is under discussion here. The hon. member can look at page 425 and he will see exactly where we are intending to spend all this money in British Columbia. Quite a large list is given.

Supply-Public Works


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I heard the minister mention certain expenditures for dredging in several projects when he was answering other members.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, yes. That was for False creek. That was part of the project of 3725,000 I just mentioned. But if the hon. member is speaking of dredging, it would come under the dredging vote. I could give all the information tomorrow, but we passed that item long ago. I am ready to give the information tomorrow, if the hon. member does not want to delay my estimates.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: That would be satisfactory to me. Just while I am on my feet, although I missed the item, I should like to say that some two or three years ago a vote was passed for a portable suction dredge for British Columbia. They have been using a clamshell dredge for fifty years and they have got by during those years, but it is quite insufficient under present conditions. Can the minister tell us what progress is being made in the building of the suction dredge?


Alphonse Fournier: This year we have in the dredging estimates a vote of $300,000 for a suction dredge which could be used there, I suppose. We have an estimate that was passed this afternoon, telling us to go ahead with that dredge.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Does the minister expect to be building that dredge soon?


Alphonse Fournier: I am going to press them as much as I can to go ahead with it, but that is about where my power stops. When I have given instructions and I can find companies that will take the contract, we will go ahead. I would not be discouraged if I were the hon. member.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I might just mention the fact that this suction dredge is badly needed. The present clamshell dredge is quite insufficient for opening the channel, in view of the large industrial development coming on the Arrow lakes.


Alphonse Fournier: I agree with the hon. member. I will impress that fact on my officials.


Mr. Graydon:: The minister had better put it in the "imperative" class.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, I shall not go back to dredging, although there is a certain amount of dredging that I and my constituents would like to see done on Shuswap lake and the Thompson river. In connection with this present vote, No. 356, I want to speak on another matter which is also of concern to the hon. member for Kootenay West, although the project itself lies in my constituency at

the moment. It has to do with the wharf at Arrowhead for which there is to be appropriated the sum of $57,000 this year.
The history of that wharf, as the minister will appreciate, has been one of disappointment and delay to the people of the district. The wharf needs to be relocated at a new site because the present site is constantly silted up by the mud brought down by the Columbia river. A new site, I understand, has been surveyed and approved; but there has been difficulty and delay because of the problem of getting a right of way for a road out to the new site. When I ask the authorities-the local board of trade-they tell me the minister says the difficulty is that they have not been able to get a right of way over the C.P.R. tracks. When I take the matter up with the Canadian Pacific Railway they tell me it is because the provincial department of public works is not doing something. When I go to the provincial department of public works, they tell me that the federal Department of Public Works has not given them the green light. When I go to the federal Department of Public Works, they refer me back to the C.P.R.


Mr. Chevrier:: That is the place to go.


An hon. Member:: The run-around.


Edmund Davie Fulton: My most recent information is that the problem of acquiring the right of way over the C.P.R. tracks has now been satisfactorily dealt with by the provincial department of public works, who are prepared to pay for the road leading to the new wharf site. That is my most recent information. It is cleared, so far as I know, with the provincial department and the C.P.R. Will the minister now tell me, please, where his department stands in the matter?


Alphonse Fournier: I can read what I have here.


Gordon Graydon: Do not drag in the treasury board on this one.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, no.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is like a game of Russian roulette.


Alphonse Fournier: A suitable location has been found about half a mile east of the C.P.R. wharf. It will be necessary to acquire an easement and a foreshore for this site from the Arton Lumber Company Limited, who own the upland property and have the foreshore lease.
Later on in this report which they show me I see the action taken in 1952-53 was: Preparation of plans and specifications was delayed pending acquisition of a suitable site; however, it is anticipated that work:

will be advertised and contract let so that work may be undertaken in the fall of 1954 when water levels are low.
Now, to one who knows how to read between the lines this is not very definite, even in my own mind. I will have to see if we have reached agreement with this Arton Lumber Company Limited, the Canadian Pacific Railway and the provincial government. This is a pretty good report but I could give it a different interpretation. I could take it that plans are being prepared and they are telling me that they are going ahead with tenders and will start work in the late fall. I could say that, yes; but when I am back here next spring, if the work has not been done the hon. gentleman will say: "Why did you say you would go ahead?" I do not see in this report that we have cleared the matter with the Canadian Pacific Railway and the company. Moreover, I am told that it takes a long time when we deal with these companies and governments.


Agar Rodney Adamson: A five-year plan.


Edmund Davie Fulton: They tell me the same thing applies when people deal with the minister's department; but let us not try to assess the blame within too narrow limits. Do I understand the minister to say that the plan is not to start construction until 1954? I had hoped that it would read 1953.


Donald Methuen Fleming: After the snow flies.


Alphonse Fournier: I am not going to change what is written here, and I see right before me: "It is anticipated that work will be advertised and contract let so that work may be undertaken in the fall of 1954 when water levels are low." That may mean 1953, and then we would be satisfied.


Edmund Davie Fulton: One other thing. Have the minister's officials any up to the minute information on the status of the negotiations with regard to the right of way?


Alphonse Fournier: Their difficulty is that they are negotiating for this site but they have not as yet reached agreement. I cannot ask for any more than that. If they are trying to get this site, and trying to do the best they can, then I cannot ask for more.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I appreciate that, and I am not so concerned with the site because 1 believe that difficulty will be fairly easily resolved. I am concerned with the right of way leading to the site.
I hope that the minister * will take what I say at face value. Members of the opposition sometimes are able to help even government departments clear up problems. What I
Supply*-Public Works want to do is help the minister and his department clear up this problem. I happen to know the C.P.R. officials, and I know the officials of the department of public works in the province. I could go to them and perhaps help the minister's department if he will let me know what the situation is.


Alphonse Fournier: Well, do not go to the
province. I think they have built the road leading to the site, so that part has been settled. As to the site itself, I am told that the difficulty will be to obtain from the Canadian Pacific Railway a right of way. That matter has not been agreed. The province, as I say, has constructed or is constructing the roadway leading to that site.


Edmund Davie Fulton: May I make one further suggestion, and it is that the minister ask his officials, and he should consider this himself, to relax the requirements for a right of way. I believe one of the difficulties is that the Canadian Pacific Railway is reluctant to part with the fee of the soil, if I may use a technical expression, but they are willing to give an easement for a specified number of years. I understand that the department normally requires the absolute right or absolute guarantee of a perpetual right of way. The C.P.R. is unwilling to give such a perpetual right. However, we are after all dealing in good faith; and if the minister received word from the Canadian Pacific Railway that they are willing to give an easement for 99 years, or a lease, with the option of renewal, although it might not meet the technical requirements it might meet the requirements of common sense and we could proceed on that basis.
Would the minister then have his officials review the situation with respect to relaxing one or two of the technical aspects in order to get on with this project? To my knowledge it has now been delayed four years because of this run-around.


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, I will do my best; but if there is a legal question and if I am barred by my own statute from dealing with it in the way suggested-well, I could not do very much. However, if there is no bar against an easement for a time period then I will see if we can get the agreement.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I want to support what the hon. member for Kamloops has said. This wharf is at the head of the Arrow lakes, and for five or six years now a steamer of about 900 tons has had to land on the beach for a large part of the year because of the ice and the condition of the old wharf. I do hope every effort will be made to start on the wharf early in 1954.

Supply-Public Works
I can understand why the year is given as 1954. It is because the high water has to come down; they cannot start until the water is at low level. The present situation is a great inconvenience to the boats that now use those lakes.


Alphonse Fournier: I am convinced.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item carry?


Mr. Applewhaite:: No. If we may get out of the interior and to the coast for a few minutes I would like to say that the particular section of the coast of British Columbia which runs from the north end of Vancouver island to the Alaskan boundary is the part of British Columbia for which I am the mouthpiece down here. As the minister knows, it is a section of the country where a large number of small communities are entirely dependent on water transportation for their economic livelihood. I wish to bring one or two of them to his attention, and I propose to deal with them together to save the minister's valuable time.
Even though I know how anxious he is to see this item passed, I am going to take a minute to say on the floor of this house how much I and the other residents of the coast of British Columbia feel indebted to his officers in the New Westminster office for the thorough, complete, and very sympathetic interest and knowledge they have of the problems we have in those small communities.
In the particulars under this item on page 425 there is a reference to harbour improvements at Bella Coola. I would like to urge upon the minister the fact that Bella Coola is one of those communities entirely isolated by every other form of transportation except steamship. There is no road, there is no railway, and there is no commercial air line. This item, which to a very large extent is a revote, has been in the estimates for more than one year, and I would urge upon the minister that he show to the people of Bella Coola that kindness of heart for which he is so famed and proceed to have this small harbour job done this year. The cost is only $49,000.


An hon. Member:: That is a lot of money.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: I also wish to express to the minister the appreciation of the people concerned for the dredging votes for Delkatla slough at Masset on the north end of the Queen Charlotte islands and for Inverness passage near Prince Rupert, for which tenders have been called and I understand it is the department's intention to let those contracts this year.

I cannot emphasize too strongly that in both these cases dredging is required because there is now not sufficient water there to enable the large halibut packers and vessels of that type to come in, unload or lie during low tide. Therefore I hope the minister will take one further step, after providing funds, and make certain that the work is done.
That leads me to one other point I wish to make in connection with dredging. The department has decided this year to undertake two major dredging projects on the north coast. That means it will have dredging equipment in that area, either of its own or under contract. It has taken a long time to get dredging equipment in there, and if it gets away it will take a long time to bring it back, because they will not bring in dredging equipment to do a little $5,000 or $10,000 job. Therefore I urge that certain small dredging requirements be undertaken at the present time. Two I have in mind are not included in the present estimates. The amount involved would be small, and I think there would be time to include them in the supplementary estimates.
At this time I am not asking for a major expenditure. I would urge, however, the dredging of Skidegate channel, between the north and south islands of the Queen Charlotte islands group. That is the only way one can get to the mainland of British Columbia from the west coast of the Queen Charlotte islands, without going around the north or south end or, in other words, without a voyage of about 180 additional miles.
It is a big undertaking to make a real, deep channel through there; but that is not what we are asking. We are asking only for a channel which would enable ships of the size of small packers and fishing vessels to go through the channel. I am not asking even that it be dredged so they could go through at low tide, only that they may be able to go through at half tide to high tide, with reasonable safety.
This is not a little, local proposition asked for only by the residents of a small community. It has attracted the attention of the Prince Rupert fishermen's co-operative association, which represents all the fishermen on the north coast, and the suggestion has been heartily endorsed by them. It has also attracted the attention of the fisheries association of British Columbia.
I should like to read to the minister part of a letter written to me by that association. It is dated February 14 of this year, and says;
I have been directed by the fisheries association of British Columbia to write you in connection with Skidegate narrows and the possibility of dredging this channel. For many years this matter has been discussed in the fishing industry ge:ier-

ally, and we believe, in the department of defence, but to date nothing conclusive has developed.
When Mr. Sinclair, Minister of Fisheries, was in Vancouver we brought this request to his attention and he suggested that we communicate with you as you were very familiar with the district and would be appreciative of our problem.
The fisheries association suggests that immediate consideration be given to the dredging of Skide-gate narrows. During last year's heavy run of pinks on the west coast of the Queen Charlotte islands, there were many delays in the dispatching of the fish to the canneries on the mainland. There were delays in the movement of boats north and south on account of weather, and their inability to navigate through the channel. We believe that such a program would add materially to the protection of fishermen, the efficiency of fishing in this area, and assure the processors of receiving fish in a better condition, which is foremost in our minds.
Then there is the matter of the use of such a channel for defence purposes, crash boats, and other services required in the country's defence.
We recommend, therefore, that a survey be carried out as soon as possible as we feel that the dredging of the channel does not present too great an engineering problem, and believe that the cost of such a project would not be prohibitive.
We would like you to consider this letter as a formal request to initiate the interest of all those concerned. All fishing organizations will support us in this project.
I believe it is the opinion of some officials in the Department of Public Works that this project involves greater expense and a bigger undertaking than they would feel justified in promising at this time. I suggest to them, with all deference, that the people who are actually making their living in the fishing industry on that coast know that channel very well. They know what they want. They know they are not asking for a St. Lawrence seaway; they are asking for the removal of certain obstructions. They are asking for the clearing of brush from points on shore so that one can see from point to point. They are asking for an expenditure which I suggest with respect would be well under $50,000; and $50,000 is a pretty small sum to ask when compared with the value of the fisheries production on the Pacific coast.
Then, on the subject of dredging equipment, I would refer to Digby island, and the little community of Dodge Cove. This is a community of some 60 or less fishing families who make their homes there the year round. It is the site of a small saw mill and a reasonably good-sized privately-owned boat-building establishment. They have a harbour which has a sand bottom, and which should be dredged to a depth of approximately six to eight feet. This would not be necessary over a large area, but only sufficient to afford berthing space for ships to lie in there. These would be fishing boats, and not large ones at that. They could lie in there over low tide without their keels
Supply-Public Works
touching bottom and, with the water going out, the ships falling over on their sides.
The approach to the harbour is only a small item. May I emphasize to the minister that if we had no dredging equipment in the district perhaps I would not be justified in asking him to dredge Dodge cove, or to go to the expense of bringing in dredging equipment from the south to do that work. However, with dredging equipment in the area, as there will be this year, it is in the interests of economy and of the residents of the area, as well as the interests of the fishing industry as a whole, that these small dredging jobs be done now, while they can be done cheaply and quickly.


Agar Rodney Adamson: How much will that cost?


Edward Turney Applewhaite: About $15,000.


Alphonse Fournier: Every remark made by the hon. member will be taken into consideration. It is worthy of note that these requests come from every part of the house, not only from one side.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers generally-
357.	Repairs and unkeep for the maintenance of services, including reconstruction and replacements, and to authorize commitments against future years in the total amount of $420,000, no new works to be undertaken, $3,535,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I notice in this item there is the sum of $200,000 for Prince Edward Island, and a commitment authority for $35,000. Where is that work being done, or going to be done? When will the work commence? Will it be done by tender or otherwise? What other places are being considered in the matter of repairs and improvements, payment for which would be out of the balance amounting to $165,000? A petition was sent to the department some time ago by the fishermen of North Rustico harbour. It was signed by all the boat owners at that point, asking for the building of a protective harbour such as was built at Harris bay or Rustico bay last summer.
Those are questions to which I hope the minister will give answers, because it is important to the fishermen of Prince Edward Island and those interested in harbour improvements that action be taken.


Alphonse Fournier: This item, as it has been repeated year after year, is a general vote for maintenance and repairs of our piers, wharves, breakwaters and harbour facilities. Details are not known in advance. If something happens to a pier or a wharf in Prince Edward Island, and repairs are urgently needed, it is taken out of this vote. If the
3678	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works hon. member will look at page 427 he will find set out the amounts we are allowed to spend in each province for the upkeep of our harbour works. In the case of Prince Edward Island it is $200,000, plus commitment authority of $35,000. I cannot state in advance exactly where these amounts will be spent. The engineers report on the state of these different works. That is about the best explanation I can give. When the engineers tour the provinces inspecting these works they make out their reports as to needed repairs and the amount required.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Your engineer, Mr. Miller, made a recommendation in connection with this boat harbour protection, and I want to know if anything is to be done this year to protect these boats in time of storm.


Alphonse Fournier: If he made a recommendation and there is a sufficient amount available we will certainly follow his recommendation. What is the name of the place?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: North Rustico, the greatest fishing village in the maritime provinces.


Alphonse Fournier: I know that, because every year the hon. member tells me about it. If it is recommended by the engineer we will repair it.


William Joseph Browne: I am glad to know that the minister follows the recommendations of his engineers, because I understand that in the case of Newfoundland there have been a great many recommendations by the district engineer, particularly in the riding of St. John's West. I wonder if the minister has those recommendations, because I have a copy here.


Alphonse Fournier: I gave the hon. member a copy.


William Joseph Browne: You did not.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member asked me for a copy of the recommendations and I gave it to him. There is no secret about these things.


William Joseph Browne: I have an accompanying letter from one of your engineers.


Alphonse Fournier: Do you think he would write the letter without my authority?


William Joseph Browne: The minister may have been absent at the time.


An hon. Member:: Let us have the letter.


William Joseph Browne: I do not
intend to read the letter. I am asking the minister if he has the list there.
TMr. Fournier (Hull).]


Alphonse Fournier: If the hon. member got it from someone other than myself, how could I have it?


William Joseph Browne: I want to know if the items mentioned in this letter will be carried out this year.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not even know what the items are. Is that my letter or the letter of somebody else?


William Joseph Browne: It is from Mr. Anderson, your assistant chief engineer.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not blame any hon. member asking the engineer to give him a list of the works he has recommended to the department, but I do not know whether this particular list has been approved.


William Joseph Browne: That is what I want to know, whether this list has been approved.


Alphonse Fournier: If you got the list before I did, it would not be approved.


William Joseph Browne: I do not
know. I may have spoken to the minister about this matter and he may have directed me to write to the engineer. I did not think I was getting anything exceptional, because I have done this in previous years. I am not sure that it does much good, because the other members from Newfoundland seem to have much more influence with the minister than I.


Alphonse Fournier: Don't start on that.


William Joseph Browne: I have all the figures, and I can quote them to the minister.


Alphonse Fournier: That won't advance things.


William Joseph Browne: Am I going to be penalized-


Alphonse Fournier: I think the hon. member is wrong to argue by comparisons. If he has a good case he should advance it, and not rely on the other fellow's case.


William Joseph Browne: I understand that the minister is tired as he has had a pretty stiff time.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, no.


Mr. Dickey:: The hon. member is tired.


William Joseph Browne: The hon. member should keep to his cost-plus contracts?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


William Joseph Browne: It is no
pleasure to get up here in this House of Commons and have to plead-


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member seems to enjoy it.


William Joseph Browne: I do not
enjoy it any more than the minister enjoys making promises which are not carried out.


John Horace Dickey: Shame.


William Joseph Browne: I have here-


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, I would like the hon. member to tell me when I made him a promise that I did not keep. Will he give me the place and the amount?


Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: Just good intentions.


Alphonse Fournier: That is more than some people have.


William Joseph Browne: Here is the list, and I would like to know whether these items are included in the vote we are dealing with now. That was all I wanted to know when I first rose but I have been subjected to so many interruptions-


Mr. Mcllraiih:: Why not ask?


John Horace Dickey: Oh, oh.


William Joseph Browne: The hon. member for Halifax is used to dealing in millions and billions, while I am dealing with only a few thousand dollars. I wish he would keep from interrupting. The first item is Bay Bulls and the next is Branch. I have been to both these places and I know the conditions that exist, especially at Branch. This is a fishing village, and a harbour has been made by means of a breakwater on both sides of the river where it runs into the sea. But the harbour fills up with silt. If the minister is listening I would like to tell him about this little fishing village where the fishermen have to work very hard to get their boats over the gravel. I trust it will be possible for him to help out in maintaining that breakwater so that it does not fill up so easily. Some dredging is required, and the wooden bridge is in a dilapidated condition and should be repaired.
A vote was recommended for Calvert, and one for Long Harbour and one for Mobile. Then there was a small recommendation for Petty Harbour, another place which I know quite well. Work has been going on there and the men are carrying out their tasks very conscientiously. Then there is Point La Haye and Trepassey, the latter the one I mentioned this afternoon. Is the minister in position to say whether those will be recommended?


Alphonse Fournier: While the hon. member was giving me that list I was just thinking that there are 262 ridings and people 68108-2334
Supply-Public Works come to me every day and ask me to do this and that. I ask for reports from the engineers or the architects in connection with these different works. I have a certain amount of money voted by parliament, and we try to use our judgment in expending that money. It might be interesting to stand up and make a ten or fifteen-minute speech on each vote, but I cannot give a final answer when I am trying to get my estimates through. If the hon. member would come to my office and confer with my deputy and the officials who know the details he would get a much better answer than I can give, even with all the good intentions and good will that I have.


William Joseph Browne: There is just one observation I would like to make. The hon. members for Bonavista-Twillingate and Trinity-Conception do not have to get up here. There were millions spent in 1951-52 in their ridings, and I do not think I am exceeding my rights when I ask-


Alphonse Fournier: If the hon. member's case is not a good one he will not get anything.


William Joseph Browne: I do not
think I should be called down by the minister for having done that.


Alphonse Fournier: I am not calling you down. Do not get mad over anything like that.


William Joseph Browne: I am not
mad.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. Hon. members should address themselves to the chair. I have noted several occasions during this evening when hon. members have not referred to other hon. members in the proper manner. I have heard a great many remarks made in the second person, such as "you know this" and "you assured me". It should be "the hon. member assured me". I should like hon. members taking part in the debate between now and the adjournment, and of course at all times, to keep these remarks in mind.


William Joseph Browne: Mr. Chairman, I hope that in the heat of the debate I did not fall very far away from the strict letter of the law in committee.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It was the minister.


William Joseph Browne: I am trying to hew to the line as closely as possible. I should like to ask the minister if he is in a position now to say that these matters have been recommended. He has read me a lecture about what I should not do. He has said that if he had representations from all

Supply-Public Works 262 members across the country he would never get through his work, but he does not have them. Hon. members of the Liberal party do not come here and make any claims. They do not have to. Looking around the house in the last three days we have been discussing the estimates of his department, he should be flattered by the attention which members of the opposition are giving to his estimates. His own members are not interested in them at all. Of course there is a reason for that. They do not have to come here.
The last speech we heard by an hon. member from British Columbia was held up to us as an example of demands from all parts of the house and the country; but that speech stands out alone and solitary. We have to come here. We have to plead with the minister. I did it this afternoon and I am doing it now. I have asked him whether or not these votes have been recommended. He should be in a position to tell me whether or not they are.


Alphonse Fournier: I have not even seen that list. It has not been submitted to me. My deputy says he has not seen it. You must know a lot about my department to have a list of recommendations which should be Blade to the minister first. Don't you think so? How can I give you an answer?


William Joseph Browne: I am supposed to be the representative from this district, and I am making-


Alphonse Fournier: Don't you think I represent something, too?


William Joseph Browne: Pardon?


Alphonse Fournier: Don't you think I represent the Department of Public Works?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Address the chair.


Alphonse Fournier: I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I want to say to the hon. gentleman that I am not trying to lecture him. There are many members on the other side of the house who have not made a single speech, but if you look at the estimates you will see that their cases have been discussed. When they had a good case they got something in the estimates. What I do not like is when the hon. member tries to make comparisons with other ridings. If you have a good case-and I am sincere in saying this- you are bound to succeed if I can get the money voted. I have tried to do that for the last eleven years. Just because you happened to come into the house only a few years ago, don't tell me that I am not being fair. I think you are unfair in saying that.


William Joseph Browne: I have told you that for four years.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps the hon. gentleman has been unfair for four years and that is why he is not having any success.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is there anything for the poor orphans in St. John's East? I am not asking about any particular amount. Is there anything?


Alphonse Fournier: I will explain how we proceed under this vote. The resident engineer in Newfoundland is Mr. Millar. He is an experienced engineer. He was sent to that province to establish the district. After his tours around the province he sends in reports on the state of our works there and makes recommendations for repairs or alterations to those works. He may recommend them to his chief engineer, who will make a recommendation to the minister. When I receive these recommendations they are compared with the requests from all other provinces and we take into account the amount that is allotted to the province and the amount that is appropriated.
Suppose the engineer recommends far more than the amount that has been voted by parliament? What happens? We have to use our judgment as to the works which are to be done. Here is where I differ with the hon. member for St. John's West. If on the report of the district engineer and the chief engineer we think that work on one project is more needed or more urgent than on another project, then the first project will receive priority. I have tried to follow that practice all through the years.


Gordon Francis Higgins: You really have a revolving fund.


Alphonse Fournier: It is voted every year. We have an amount every year.


William Joseph Browne: Is the
minister in a position to say whether or not the names I have read out have been recommended? They have been recommended by the district engineer.


Alphonse Fournier: What good will it do you if it is recommended and I do not approve it?


William Joseph Browne: Has it been recommended by you?


Alphonse Fournier: I will make the decision when it comes to the spending of the money. Somebody will make a recommendation to the minister. They may recommend anything. You have been recommending things to me, and sometimes you do not succeed. There has to be a decision. I look over the list in my office with my officials. That is where we will apportion the amount of money to the works that are most needed or urgent. The hon. gentleman may have a list which

will have top priority. I do not know. It has not come before me yet.


William Joseph Browne: But I have talked like this for four or five years now-


Alphonse Fournier: You are still a young man.


William Joseph Browne: -and I have heard the minister give the same reply. I am familiar with the system under which he operates. I am familiar with what he has said about how these things come to be recommended and how he has to make a final decision. I know that. But has he made a final decision with regard to this case yet?


Alphonse Fournier: I have not seen the list. How can I tell the hon. member I have made a final decision?


William Joseph Browne: The minister seems to blame me for having obtained the list. I hope nothing will be done to the officials. I have the highest regard for them, especially for Mr. Millar. I think Mr. Millar is doing a great job in Newfoundland, and I have always got along well with him. I must say that the minister's officials are very interested in the work they have to do down there. However, I do not think I can be blamed for obtaining this list. I did it quite innocently, and I hope no one will suffer as a result of my receiving it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Generally-
358.	Fraser river-50 per cent of the cost of investigations to be carried out by the "dominion provincial board, Fraser river basin", $137,500.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, we all
appreciate-and I say this with the best of intentions-that this may be the minister's valedictory, and we are all anxious to give him the chance to make it a good one. I am sure the minister will join with us in the effort we are making to give him the opportunity of reviewing his estimates to the fullest possible extent on this occasion.
The minister will appreciate that this is an item in which I and other members from British Columbia on all sides have taken a very active interest. It is an item for the expenses of the board which is carrying out a survey of the whole Fraser river system with a view to bringing in a program of flood control, irrigation and power development. The board, which goes under the difficult name of the dominion-provincial board, Fraser river basin, is a joint dominion-provincial board which was set up following the disastrous floods of the Fraser river in 1948.
Supply-Public Works
We are sometimes conscious, Mr. Chairman, of a feeling that this is where we came in before, and perhaps never more so than in the department of the Minister of Public Works, who always gives us disarming replies which we accept with great hope. But then we find we have to come back next year and ask the same question all over again.


Stanley Howard Knowles: And get the same reply.


Edmund Davie Fulton: And get the same reply. I know the minister's intentions are good. I know the minister appreciates that this is a most important project. I know he will understand that I appreciate that the very importance and magnitude of the task mean that progress may not always be what we would hope for, but I do hope that this year the minister can say more than that the studies are continuing. I would ask him whether he is in a position to let us know what concrete recommendations the board has made and what program is being developed for carrying out their recommendations. I believe there is no more potentially important project in British Columbia than the development of the advantages which could follow from the co-ordination of a program of flood control, irrigation and power development in the whole Fraser river system. I would appreciate it if the minister, in what may be his last opportunity, would give us a comprehensive report of the work of this board.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that this is really an important question. The hon. member knows how this board was set up by agreement with British Columbia. I have quite a long expose of the whole situation, and I have a list of the members representing the federal government and the provincial government. I received, I think about a year ago, an interim report from this board, and I am told that I have received no other report. I think I did show that report or give a resume of it to the members, but it was in such general terms that we could not base any immediate works upon it. This is a survey and study of the whole Fraser river basin. The people on that board seem to have quite a reputation. They are outstanding citizens and engineers.
This is the information I have been given. This amount of $137,500 is required to pay the federal government's share of the cost of investigations proposed, to be carried out during 1953-54 by the dominion-provincial board, Fraser river basin. The board was established by authority of order in council P.C. 247/288 dated January 22, 1949, for the purpose of conducting an investigation to determine the improvements which might be undertaken to develop the water resources of the Fraser

Supply-Public Works valley, British Columbia, in the interest of fish and wildlife, water power, flood control, irrigation, reclamation of wet lands and other beneficial purposes. It is for that reason that there are representatives of these different departments on that board. The board consists of officials of the provincial government of British Columbia and the government of Canada. The province of British Columbia and the government of Canada will share the cost of the said survey and report equally.
The amount asked for during 1953-54 is $137,500. This amount is to cover the federal government's share, 50 per cent, of the cost of the following work proposed to be carried on in 1953-54: Aerial photography and bathymetric survey, $75,000; Department of Resources and Development, gauging stations and metering, $13,200; Department of Fisheries, Canada, gauging stations, $4,250; department of lands and forests, water rights branch, flood control, power and sedimentation investigation, $74,500. The board will spend $34,000 for damsite exploration; $22,500 for pollution investigation; $3,500 for land use mapping; $31,500 for administration, salaries and operation. The total amount is $258,450. The federal government's share is $129,225. The amount necessary for the department to meet monthly payments pending receipt of the province's share of the cost is $8,275. To the best of my ability I have given an outline of the way this money is to be spent, giving the details of the work that is to be done and the amount stated.
As to the progress they are making, as the hon. member says it is a long-winded investigation and I suppose when they have all their data gathered together they will make a final and comprehensive report which will be the basis of the works that may be undertaken by the federal government in conjunction with the provincial government. I realize that it is most important to that province that we continue these surveys and research.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I appreciate the full extent of the analysis which the minister has given of the money that is being spent under this item. I am going to resist the temptation, Mr. Chairman, I assure you and the minister, to make any sort of a speech on this project, although I can assure the minister it is probably one the importance of which is not readily apparent to him or to the members of the house. This Fraser river system takes in the larger part of the dry belt area of the province. It may be' news to the minister, but I want to impress upon him that the Fraser river system takes in far more than what is known as the constituency of Fraser Valley. Its tributaries flow through my own riding, and the problems of irrigation, power development and flood control are of immense importance to us there.

I am sure the minister remembers the number of times I have seen him in his office or have come over to sit beside him in the house to discuss this matter and express the view that, although we appreciate the painstaking and methodical care that must be shown in developing a program to deal with this problem, it does concern us that there is not more positive progress evident. With the greatest respect, I think it is fair to suggest to the minister that the outline he has given us tonight is really nothing more than an outline of expenditures to cover further studies. It does not do very much to reassure us that there is that sense of urgency in developing this work which we sought to impress upon him and have him in turn, as the responsible minister in this government, impart to and impress upon his officials on that board who are undertaking this work.
I do not want to labour any particular point. We understand that this may be the last opportunity we will have to discuss this matter with the minister because other activities may absorb his attention. May I suggest to him that if he does nothing else but get this work going, and get some positive results, he will have erected for himself a lasting monument to his career as Minister of Public Works. Not in jest but with the greatest good will in the world and appreciation of the minister's interest in the whole of Canada, which embraces of course the interests of the province of British Columbia, I do ask him to give this more than just a passing interest. I ask him to devote some time and some effort, if I may use that word, toward impressing upon all the officials in charge of this work the importance of producing a concrete plan and program of development upon which some initial steps may be taken before the close of this fiscal year which we are discussing now. If he does that, and if he takes even one positive step toward construction, the minister may be satisfied that his name will go down in the annals of British Columbia as one of its greatest benefactors.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Generally-
359.	Protection works generally, $1,000,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I note in. the details, over on page 428, that this item includes $25,000 labelled as "contributions." To whom are those contributions made?


Alphonse Fournier: I am sorry, but I was looking up my book and did not catch the question.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I said that this item 359, "Protection works generally, $1 million", according to the details on page 428, includes an amount of $25,000 listed as "contributions". To whom are these contributions made?


Alphonse Fournier: I can give instances, I think, in certain provinces where the province has some interest in erosion and the protection of banks, where we did pay up to 50 per cent. I think I have one case on the Fraser river. We have certain cases. I am thinking of a case now in British Columbia, at Chilliwack, where we put up $6,000, the municipality put up $6,000 and the province put up $6,000. This would be under those contributions. I wonder whether the hon. gentleman followed me. Where there is bank erosion, partly occasioned by navigation but in which the province and the municipality were interested, we each put up one-third of the cost. That is what we call here a contribution.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Arising out of this item, there is one other comment I should like to make. It seems to me that in the minister's estimates there are a number of items, including this one, which provide a leeway; in fact, I would call it a rather comfortable leeway. Earlier today we passed item 336 Which was for unforeseen improvements, amounting to $1,200,000. That was after we had passed items for specific amounts under the architectural branch. Now, after having passed specific votes under the engineering branch, we come to this item of "Protection works generally", and it is for $1 million. We have already had a number of items covering protection works under the engineering branch. Then when we move on to item 360, we find it is for-
Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $10,000 to be expended upon any one work.
The total amount there is $590,000. Later we come to . item 362 which is-
To supplement, on approval of treasury board except where less than $1,000 is required, any of the appropriations of the Department of Public Works.
That item is for $400,000. Then the last one, No. 363, seems to me to be in the same category. It is for another $400,000, and it reads:
To provide for balances required to complete any projects undertaken in previous fiscal years and for which no specific provision is made in the fiscal year 1953-54.
It seems to me that these items are not quite in keeping with the precise and specific nature of the department's items generally. For the most part they specify what they are
Supply-Public Works for. They are broken down as to types of work and as to provinces. But here we have five different items that seem to be for the purpose of making up for underestimates or what have you. When you add those five amounts together they come to $3,590,000. Am I not right in suggesting that that is a fairly comfortable leeway?


Alphonse Fournier: I think we should discuss these items together, if the committee is agreeable, because they are of the same nature. I just want to explain how we proceed. These are not new items. They have existed for years and years. If you read them carefully-


Stanley Howard Knowles: This one is for $400,000 more than it was last year; I refer to the one we are on now.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. These come in from the different districts, from the engineers, when they tour their districts, I do not know most of these things in advance and if the recommendation does not come in, the money is not expended. But I want to point out the way it is proceeded with here. Let us take this vote 360, for example. The amount we ask for is $590,000. Under that vote we have spent in the province of Newfoundland, in the architectural branch, $1,101.95. This was recommended after an inspection of this building by the resident architect or one of his officials. We have the obligation of maintaining these buildings in a good state of repair.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Pardon the interruption but may I ask, Mr. Chairman, whether these items or amounts that are spent on the recommendation of the district architects are covered in this item? Is this item not under the engineering branch?


Alphonse Fournier: This is item 360.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No; we are on item 359.


Alphonse Fournier: Those are protection works generally. They are under the engineers. There is no architect. I was discussing the other one, item 360. When we get a report from the engineers of our districts, where erosion has been caused by navigation, or by federal works that have been constructed and have influenced the current of the water, or if the damage is done to public works, the report comes in after the inspection and then we will allow an amount, ask for tenders and give out a contract. At this time of the year, before they have made their inspections in all the districts, I can hardly give even the places where this money will be expended during the balance of the year. That system has been in existence for a long time.
3684	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works
The Department of Public Works is the only department that I know of which gives specifically the list of its expenditures in every instance. There are four or five general votes to supplement the specific items that we have in our estimates and which we expend. I am told by those who administer the department and who are doing the work that unless they had these votes it would be impossible to operate; that at times it would be against the public interest if we did not have the amount required to complete the work if it was $1,000, $2,000 or $5,000. You have items limited by $10,000, and other items not comprising new works, just to supplement or complete. I am told that it is the only way the department can operate.
As to those votes, I tell you really that I have to rely on my officials for their reports because they say they would not know how to administer the whole department, after giving all these specific details and exact amounts, if they did not have some leeway in these votes.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I just want to say a word or two on this item, Mr. Chairman. I heard the minister mention contributions toward the prevention of erosion. We have severe erosion on the Columbia river at Revelstoke and at Trail at times, and we have it on the Kootenay river.


Alphonse Fournier: At Revelstoke?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Yes.


Alphonse Fournier: I did work there, did I not?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Some years ago. We want more.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: What I want to ask the minister is this. I heard him mention the fact that the federal government assumes responsibility if the erosion was occasioned by navigation or by some work of the Department of Public Works, or if some work of the Department of Public Works requires protection. My question is this. If, in order to meet this problem, the province concerned makes application to the federal government for assistance in meeting the cost of preventing erosion, and where the municipalities pay part of the cost, will his department give that matter consideration?


Alphonse Fournier: I do not think the federal authority would go farther than the definition I have just given now, namely erosion caused by navigation, by federal works being done affecting the current of the water or damages done to federal works. Those would be the three divisions on which they would base their reports.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: As I understand it the contributions were apparently made for some works by municipalities which were undertaken on the river.


Alphonse Fournier: In certain parts of the Fraser where there is navigation and where we did works and dredging, those works did influence the current of the water and erosion took place. We did pay certain amounts for those works. I do not know whether that is clear enough, or whether I am putting it the right way.


Albany M. Robichaud: Would the construction of breastworks for the protection of our shores in the bay of Chaleur, for instance, against the encroachment of tides and currents be covered by this item?


Alphonse Fournier: That would be in the specific amounts. If a wharf, pier or breakwater was affected by the stream or tide in certain places we would have a special item to cover that damage. Erosion, however, is not the same thing.


Albany M. Robichaud: I mentioned the shoreline.


Alphonse Fournier: No; just damage occasioned by navigation or by public works, or to public works.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
360.	Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $10,000 to be expended upon any one work, $590,000.
William Joseph Browne: On item 360 I have one more question to ask the minister. Are there any specific votes under this item for Newfoundland?


Alphonse Fournier: I am afraid I have not been clear in the way I have explained it. This vote is not allotted to any province in particular. If an amount is required to complete a job-and they are generally small amounts of $1,000, $2,000, $3,000-and if we have expended the total amount of the specific vote, then we will complete it out of this vote.


William Joseph Browne: There were a number of things to be done, and I will just mention the places because the engineers may be familiar with them. They are: Arnold's Cove, Admirals Cove, Long Beach, Mosquito, Portugal Cove South, St. Shott's, St. Stephens. Those are all fishing settlements where the work is very necessary. Nothing has ever been done before, and I hope that the minister will keep them in mind when they come before him.


Alphonse Fournier: Well, even though we have had most agreeable discussions this evening, may I say that I do take these things into consideration. I want to tell the hon. gentleman that I am not so tired that I will forget about them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
363. To provide for balances required to complete any projects undertaken in previous fiscal years and for which no specific provision is made in the fiscal year 1953-54, $400,000.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Before the items are completed I recall that a few minutes ago the minister spoke of his attachment to the principle that engagements should be carried out.
I know he would readily agree that promptness is of the essence of performance. This afternoon the minister was good enough to promise that he would give me the detail of the item of $4,000 in his estimates for this year for furnishing the prime minister's residence. Has the minister that information to give the committee now?


Alphonse Fournier: I left the house about half past six, went out to have my dinner, came back at five minutes to eight, and I have been here ever since. A promise is a promise, however, and I will give you those details the moment I have a chance to go back to my office and get them. There will be nothing hidden, and if we do not need the money we will not spend it. If we are going to spend it we will tell you how, where and when; and we will go into the detail for every last cent.
Before you leave the chair, Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the hon. gentlemen for the co-operation and good will and help they have given me. I was thinking during these three days that if hon. gentlemen had had, as I had, requests from all of these gentlemen in the House of Commons they would be astounded at the amount I am asking parliament to vote-as compared to the total of the requests of all of the gentlemen.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman-


Louis-René Beaudoin: Does the hon. member for Eglinton wish to say something more on this item?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have indicated my desire to be co-operative with the minister, and I do not wish to delay the conclusion of the estimates of his department. At the same time I hope the minister will give the information to the house. It is not just for myself, it is a matter of interest to others.


Alphonse Fournier: I may have the
information tomorrow at the opening, and I
Supply-Public Works will just table it or give it to the hon. gentleman. I think I will have time to get the information tomorrow morning, and I give the assurance that tomorrow, or Monday at the latest, I will give the information to the house.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thank the minister; but has he looked into this matter carefully himself? After all, it is a very substantial amount to be spent on the furnishing of the prime minister's residence, which was furnished just two years ago.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Here we are this year with another expenditure of $4,000. We have not the information here, so I am left with the alternative of asking the minister if he has looked into the matter personally and is satisfied that this is something that is required. It is a very substantial amount after the fabulous sums spent on this residence and its furnishings two years ago.


Alphonse Fournier: If I was not satisfied that it was required I would have refused to bring it before the treasury board and before the cabinet; but there is no home in this country that I know of that does not require something to be done in it every year. I happen to own a home and I would like to skip a year in which I would not have to make certain expenditures.
Whilst I am Minister of Public Works I will not allow this residence to get into a state of disrepair. I am going to try to keep it in good repair, but the hon. gentleman will get any information he wants. He has that assurance from me.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We are not discussing repairs at the moment. This item covers furnishings; and there are not very many homes that spend $4,000 a year on furnishings, especially after being set up handsomely just two years ago.


Alphonse Fournier: This is included in an estimated expenditure of $10,500 which was passed yesterday. I promised that I would give the details of that vote, and I will.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: The next item is 57, Department of Citizenship and Immigration.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we shall first take up the Income Tax Act, then the resolution which is the basis for the superannuation bill. That bill will be sent for study to a committee, and we are anxious to have
3686	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works it go through as soon as possible. Then we shall take up the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.


[Stage Direction]
At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
The following items were passed in committee of supply:

[Stage Direction]
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
325.	Nova Scotia, $1,200,000.
326.	Prince Edward Island, $235,000.
327.	New Brunswick, $1,215,000.
328.	Quebec, $9,440,000.
329.	Ottawa, $7,000,000.
330.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $10,500,000.
331.	Manitoba, $1,450,000.
332.	Saskatchewan, $2,400,000.
333.	Alberta, $2,300,000.
334.	British Columbia, $3,850,000.
335.	Yukon and Northwest Territories, $1,000,000.
336.	Unforeseen improvements, $1,200,000.
Engineering branch-
337.	Branch administration, $526,822.
Engineering services-
338.	Salaries, surveys, inspections, etc., $1,719,701.
339.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $110,850.
Dredging-
(including snagboats) -
340.	Maintenance and operation of plant and contract and day labour works, $3,332,175.
341.	New plant and equipment, $1,726,300.
Graving docks-
342.	Maintenance and operation, $386,794.
343.	Prince Rupert dry dock and shipyard and appurtenant works-to provide for operating losses and essential repairs for the fiscal year 1953-54, $110,000.
Locks and dams-
344.	Maintenance and operation, $267,009.
Road and bridges-
345.	Maintenance and operation, $386,936.
346.	Towards international bridge over the St. Croix river between St. Stephen, New Brunswick,
[Stage Direction]
and Calais, Maine, the state of Maine to pay a like amount (revote $10,000), $125,000.
347.	Towards construction of spans of bridge over the interprovincial channel of the Ottawa river between Pembroke, Ontario, and Allumette island, Quebec (revote $50,000), $200,000.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects-
348.	Newfoundland, $1,600,000.
349.	Nova Scotia, $5,000,000.
350.	Prince Edward Island, $1,800,000.
351.	New Brunswick, $2,500,000.
352.	Quebec, $6,000,000.
353.	Ontario, $7,346,000.
354.	Manitoba, $76,000.
355.	Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $178,000.
356.	British Columbia and Yukon, $6,000,000.
Harbours and rivers generally-
357.	Repairs and upkeep for the maintenance of services, including reconstruction and replacements, and to authorize commitments against future years in the total amount of $420,000, no new works to be undertaken, $3,535,000.
Generally-
358.	Fraser river-50 per cent of the cost of investigations to be carried out by the "dominion provincial board, Fraser river basin", $137,500.
359.	Protection works generally, $1,000,000.
General-
360.	Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $10,000 to be expended upon any one work, $590,000.
361.	National capital planning service, $52,226.
362.	To supplement on approval of treasury board except where less than $1,000 is required, any of the appropriations of the Department of Public Works, $400,000.
363.	To provide for balances required to complete any projects undertaken in previous fiscal years and for which no specific provision is made in the fiscal year 1953-54, $400,000.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, April 10, 1953