1953-03-30

[Stage Direction]
Mr. H. B. McCulloch (Pictou) presented the sixth report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.


Hon. J. J. McCann (Minister of National Revenue):: In order to clarify statements
which already have been made and to answer questions asked by several hon. members with reference to television, I wish to make this brief statement.
In my statement of December 8, 1952, I mentioned six centres in which Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television stations are to be established immediately, and indicated that applications would now be received for private stations to serve other areas. I pointed out that under the plan the private stations licensed would carry national program service of the C.B.C., besides having time for programming on their own. I also said, as reported at page 409 of Hansard of December 8, 1952:
Since the objective will be to extend services as widely throughout Canada as is practicable, no two stations will be licensed at the present to serve the same area. A television station can serve only a comparatively small area. Canada is very large and it will require a good many stations before television can be brought to the people in most parts of our country. It is desirable to have one station in as many areas as possible before there are two in any one area.
These words make it clear that it was not the policy of the government to create monopoly in television or to limit any one area indefinitely to one television station.
The principle of one station to an area is to apply only until an adequate national television system is developed. At the rate that applications for stations are now being received it may not be long before there is a sufficient degree of national coverage to justify the government and the C.B.C. giving
consideration to permitting two and perhaps in some cases more than two stations in certain areas. It is anticipated that, in due course, private stations will be permitted in areas covered by C.B.C. stations, and the
C.B.C. may establish stations in some areas originally covered by private stations.
The ultimate objective of the C.B.C. is to have at least one station in every province of Canada where that is practicable. We understand that private applications have been under development in the five provinces where no C.B.C. station is now under way, and the government does not want to discourage immediate establishment in these areas of private stations which will further extend national service coverage. For that reason licences granted for private stations in those provinces will contain a provision that, before establishing a competing station, the C.B.C. will ascertain whether the area is likely to afford adequate financial support for two stations. If not, it may offer to purchase the private station at a fair and reasonable price rather than set up a new one.


Mr. Drew:: In connection with that, may I ask whether the understanding is that the minister would regard an adequate national television service as having been established if there is at least one station in every province.


James Joseph McCann: That is the ultimate objective, and that, along with private stations, will constitute the national coverage.


George Alexander Drew: Well, am I not correct in my
understanding that the distance that one can be reasonably sure of good television broadcasting conditions is not more than fifty miles at the present time?


James Joseph McCann: That is correct, as far as my knowledge goes.


George Alexander Drew: That is correct, is it? With the recognition-


James Joseph McCann: That is the minimum.


George Alexander Drew: With the recognition of that limitation, do I gather that the minister says that one television station established in each province would be regarded as adequate television facilities across Canada?


Some hon. Members:: No.


James Joseph McCann: No, I did not say that. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that probably if the
3394	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry statement were studied any questions might be asked at a later date.


Mr. Coldwell:: May I ask the minister a
supplementary question in view of this statement? Has attention been given to the representations that were reported to have been made that the corporations controlled by foreign capital should not have a dominating interest in stations licensed by the C.B.C.?


James Joseph McCann: I am unable to answer that because my knowledge is not official; it is only what I have seen in the newspaper, and I have not yet had a report from the C.B.C. with reference to the meetings last week.



INQUIRY AS TO ESTABLISHMENT OF STATION IN NEWFOUNDLAND

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. F. Higgins (St. John's East):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue arising out of his statement on television made earlier this afternoon. I understand that the corporation plans to set up stations-


Mr, Speaker:: The hon. member should not make a statement. I will allow him to ask his question, but he should not make his statement.


Gordon Francis Higgins: What plans has the minister for television in Newfoundland?


James Joseph McCann: In the general plan ultimately the C.B.C. would like to have a station in every province.


Gordon Francis Higgins: How long is ultimately?


James Joseph McCann: As long as you want to put it.



STATIONS TO BE ESTABLISHED BY PRIVATE INTERESTS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. J. Browne (St. John's West):: wonder if the minister heard the announcement over the radio today that television stations were going to be set up by private organizations at Quebec city, Windsor and Sydney. Could he add to that list?


James Joseph McCann: I did not hear the announcement over the radio but I am acquainted with the recommendations that are to be made by the C.B.C. to the radio division, Department of Transport.


William Joseph Browne: What other cities besides Quebec city, Windsor and Sydney?


James Joseph McCann: It is proposed to recommend that licences be granted for Sydney, Nova Scotia; Saint John, New Brunswick; Quebec city; Hamilton; London, Windsor and Sudbury; one in each instance.


Mr. Pearkes:: What about Victoria?


James Joseph McCann: We have no application yet, and we cannot deal with them until we get them.


Mr. Gillis:: Might I ask the Minister of National Revenue who secured the television licence for Sydney, Nova Scotia?


James Joseph McCann: No licence has been given. According to the announcement that has been made, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation will make a recommendation to the radio division, Department of Transport, to grant a licence. Offhand I do not know who it is. I think it is the same people who have the radio station. I do not know their corporate name.


Clarence Gillis: 


James Joseph McCann: Cape Breton Broadcasters.



CANADIAN FORCES


Hon. Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Defence):: I should like to lay on the table copies in English and in French of a general agreement between Canada and Belgium, signed at Brussels today, concerning the transit through and the stationing in Belgium of Canadian forces. I might say that the object of this agreement is to arrange for certain small lines of communication and supply units of the 27th Canadian infantry brigade group to be stationed in Belgium in fulfilment of NATO requirements.
When arrangements have been completed with the Belgian government it is proposed that these units, which are now in Germany, will move into the Campine area near Antwerp.
(Translation):



DISTINGUISHED VISITORS-THE PREMIER OF FRANCE AND MEMBERS OF HIS CABINET

Right Hon. Louis S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find it fitting that I draw the attention of the house to the presence of the distinguished visitors who have just entered the diplomatic gallery, in company with the French ambassador, His Excellency Mr. Guerin; I refer to the President of the council of ministers of the French Republic, Mr. Rene Mayer, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Georges Bidault, and the Minister of Finance, Mr. Maurice Bourges-Maunoury.

It is important that mention be made of this visit in the official record of the House of Commons so that its readers may also be acquainted with the honour bestowed upon us this afternoon by the representatives of France, in thus attending one of our sittings.
It is important too that we say to our distinguished visitors in our capacity as representatives, in this house, of the people of the whole country, that we wish them to carry back from their short visit among us the vivid impression that all Canadians, from coast to coast, wish to carry out in an efficient and fruitful manner their co-operation with our mother countries, as well as with the other European nations, in order to defend this civilization for which we are indebted to them and of which our democratic institutions are an essential expression.
(Text):


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Cole (Maiapedia-Maiane):: Say it in
French, please.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, may I join with the Prime Minister in expressing the welcome that is in the heart of every hon. member to the distinguished representatives of France who are with us here this afternoon. To the Prime Minister and his associates may we say that under our democratic system we also have an opposition, and that opposition is part of our democratic procedure. But may I assure them, through you, sir, that in our welcome this afternoon there is certainly complete harmony, complete understanding, and only one thought, and that is to welcome them and to wish that in their high responsibilities they may guide their great nation to the destiny that we all wish it to share in these troubled years ahead. There are deep bonds of affection between our country and France that are not measured alone by the fact that France was one of the two countries from which those races which joined to make a nation came to these shores many years ago.
Then, there is the other point that is of great importance to all Canadians from every part of Canada. Hundreds of thousands of young Canadians came to know France, through the service they gave in a common cause. Many thousands of those Canadians sleep forever in French soil. The hearts of hundreds of thousands of Canadians here in Canada are forever deeply bound to the soil and people of France.
All those who have had the privilege of seeing what has happened in these past few
Welcome to French Officials years have great admiration for the magnificent work that has already been done to rebuild a nation which, for the second time in a single generation, has felt the devastation of war. The recovery of France, its physical rebuilding, and the unity of purpose which has become so apparent is of great advantage not only to France itself, but to the whole free world.
May I say to the distinguished visitors: I join the Prime Minister in the words he used when he said that it was the wish and hope of every Canadian that your cause may be advanced in every way. And I simply join with him in expressing what I know is the hope of every one of us, that the recovery and rebuilding of France may proceed to meet your highest dreams, and that in the years ahead France may take her proper place among the nations of the world in giving leadership to that ideal of civilization which is our common heritage.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 280, to incorporate Merit Insurance Company.-Mr. Macnaughton.
Bill No. 281, for the relief of Helen Vera Cater Morgan.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 282, for the relief of Theresa Hynes Gnatiuk.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 283, for the relief of Anna Kobitowich Gordon.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 284, for the relief of Mary Viola Yolanda Decorato Roy, otherwise known as Mary Viola Yolanda Decorato King.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 285, for the relief of Vincent John Laviolette.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 286, for the relief of Eileen Arthur Osborne Prescott.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 287, for the relief of Margaret Aziz Salhany.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 288, for the relief of Margaret Parker Graves.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 289, for the relief of Audrey Jane Clements Patterson.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 290, for the relief of Roland Masson.-Mr. Winkler.


Mr. Fair:: 1.	What is the amount of subsidies or other aid paid to mining companies (other than gold) during the past 13 years?
2.	During the same period, what subsidies or other aid have been given to oil or gas companies?

Questions


Mr. Prudham:: Department of Mines and Technical Surveys:
1.	Nil.
2.	Nil.
Dominion coal board:
1.	(a) As far as subsidy payments for coal are concerned the following table covers amounts paid during wartime. These were mostly to protect the general cost of living and were paid to mine operators who were unable, without sustaining losses, to meet increased labour costs arising out of awards of wage increases approved by the proper authority. The item "cost of living bonus" was paid to the operators for distribution to their employees for the same general purpose.
Production subsidies	 $36,917,011
Grants for direct development of coal mines		394,302
Grants for housing of
coal miners	 14,984
Wage equalization payments 685,700 Cost of living bonus	 3,453,286

These are reported upon in the report of the royal commission on coal at pages 551-2, 556-7-8-9 and 560.
(b)	There is a subsidy paid to coal mine companies on coal sold for export or ship's stores on the west coast. The total paid to mining companies for this purpose in the years 1938-1952 was $792,907.
(c)	In addition to the amounts paid to mining companies set forth in (a) and Ob) there is the matter of payments made to the Dominion Coal Company and Old Sydney Collieries Ltd. This assistance is not paid to these mining companies as such but in their capacity as transportation agents. In other words, they have chartered ships to transport their coal. The amounts paid in this connection are:
Dominion Coal Co. Ltd	$17,967,214
Old Sydney Collieries Ltd. ..	655,326

These payments are in the same category as amounts paid to the railway companies which are fully set forth in the annual reports of the dominion coal board.
As far as this department has been able to ascertain no other subsidy or assistance payments have been made to mining companies, except payments made under the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.
2.	Nil.



CHICOUTIMI HARBOUR, DEEPENING AND IMPROVEMENT

Mr. Gagnon:: Since January 1, 1945, what amounts have been spent, each year, by the national harbours board, for the deepening of the channel and the improvement of facilities at the harbour of Chicoutimi?


Mr. Dickey:: 1.	Nothing has been spent by the board since January 1, 1945 for deepening the channel at Chicoutimi.
2.	The following amounts have been spent
since January 1, 1945, for improvement of facilities at Chicoutimi "harbour:	1945,
$7,920; 1946, $6,770; 1947, $9,009; 1948, $7,478; 1949, $6,656; 1950, $7,665; 1951, $12,198; 1952, $7,518.



TORBAY AIRPORT, NFLD.'  U.S. JET FIGHTER PLANES

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: 1.	Has any request been received by the government of Canada or the Minister of National Defence from the United States air force eastern command or the United States government for permission to establish a squadron of jet fighter planes at Torbay airport, Newfoundland?
2.	If so, has permission been refused?
3.	For what reason?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1,	2 and 3. Provision for the air defence of the North American continent is made under a Canada-United States plan for integrated operations. It will be appreciated that information regarding arrangements mutually agreed to by the two countries including identity, composition and location of squadrons, together with the bases from which they operate, would be of use to a potential enemy.



TORBAY, NFLD.-USE OF LAND BY U.S. AIR FORCE

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: 1.	Has any application been received from the United States northeast air command in Newfoundland for the right to use land near Torbay for military purposes?
2.	If so, on what date was the application received and what is the location and area of such land?
3.	By whom is such application being considered and what is the cause of the delay in reaching a decision on the application?


Joseph-Adéodat Blanchette: 1,	2 and 3. The United States government has from time to time requested permission to use buildings and other facilities at Torbay airport for military purposes. As a result terminable rights of use have been granted to the United States covering a number of buildings and facilities at Torbay airport to be used for administrative purposes.



AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED AND IMPORTED

Mr. Higgins:: 1.	How many airplanes were produced in Canada in 1952 and what was the value of same?
2.	How many airplane engines were manufactured in Canada in 1952 and what was the value of same?
3.	How many airplanes were imported into Canada in 1952 and what was the value of same?
Questions
4.	How many airplane engines were imported into Canada in 1952 and what was the value of same?
5.	From what countries were the (a) planes; (b) engines, imported?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1.	Not in the public interest.
2.	Not in the public interest.
3,	4 and 5.
-	Country	Number	ValueAirplanes	ii i 4 1 444	$ 583,954 38,600 106,118 30,240 21,930,883Airplane engines	Trinidad	Egypt	Iceland	United States	Total	461	22,689,795United Kingdom	126 1 8 5 2,074	2,170,079 5,086 33,041 2,910 52,178,194
Trinidad			
	Egypt			
	Alaska			
	United States			
			
		2,214	54,389,310
INCOME AND CORPORATION TAXES, QUEBEC Mr. Balcer:
1.	What was the amount of individual income tax collected by the federal government, for the year 1951, in the province of Quebec?
2.	What was the amount of corporation income tax collected by the federal government, for the year 1951, in the province of Quebec?


James Joseph McCann: Amount
Fiscal Year ended	of Income
31st March, 1952	Tax Collected
1. Individuals	 $236,480,798.59
2. Corporations	 $344,175,722.37



SEA ISLAND AIRPORT


Mr. Green:: 1.	Has any estimate been made of the cost of constructing increased loading accommodation for aircraft in front of the administration building at Sea Island airport in British Columbia?
2.	If so, what is the amount thereof?


Mr. Dickey:: 1 and 2. No actual engineering survey has been made by the Department of Transport, but it is estimated that the plan submitted by the Vancouver airport board would cost $600,000.



GIMLI AIR FORCE STATION


Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	Have there been shortages in the inventory of stores and the theft of stores from the Royal Canadian Air Force station at Gimli, since the 1st day of November, 1951?
2.	If so, what was the total amount of the shortages and what was the nature thereof?
3.	When did the thefts commence and when were they first discovered?
4.	What disposal was made of the goods stolen and to whom?


Mr. Blancheiie:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Clothing, barrack stores and shotgun and rifle ammunition to a total value of approximately $15,000 were involved, some of which has been recovered.
3.	November, 1951 and July 22, 1952.
4.	To two civilians who ran a store in Selkirk, Manitoba. As a result of investigations by service police and R.C.M.P., the receivers were brought to trial and sentenced to eight months imprisonment. Five R.C.A.F. personnel received sentences of hard labour varying from five to nine months. One ex-R.C.A.F. member will be tried at the spring assizes.
3398

Questions



AIR TRAVEL, OTTAWA-TRENTON, JANUARY 31

Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	Was any Expeditor aircraft dispatched from Ottawa to Trenton on Saturday, the 31st of January, 1953?
2.	If so, what was the purpose of the said trip or trips and what was the estimated cost of said trip or trips?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Practice flying in accordance with requirements under which aircrew maintain their flying proficiency. Costs of practice flying are not broken down into costs of individual flights.
CANADIAN CHARTERED BANKS Mr. Quelch:
1.	What were the net profits of each of the chartered banks after published provision for dominion and provincial taxes, in each of the years 1950, 1951, 1952?
2.	What was the amount of dominion and provincial taxes, of each bank for these years?
3.	What percentage of paid-up capital are the profits shown in the answer to question 1, in each case?
4.	what was the total of the transfers made to contingent reserve fund from the earnings of each of the chartered banks, during above years?
5.	What was the total amount that each bank was called upon to pay in additional taxation as a result of excess transfers in each of these years?


Mr. Lesage:: -	a) Net profits	(2) Provision for dominion and provincial taxes	(3) Percentage of profits shown in (1) to paid-up capital	(3-a) Percentage of profits shown in (1) to paid-up capital and reserve funds$ cts.	$ cts.	%	%Bank of Montreal- Fiscal year ended Oct. 31- 1950 	5,942,897 69	3,594,000 00	16-51	7-071951 	5,355,373 66	5,001,000 00	14-88	6-161952 	5,668,778 38	5,918,000 00	15-75	6-37The Bank of Nova Scotia- Fiscal year ended Oct. 31- 1950 	2,297,542 08	1,045,000 00	19-15	6-381951 	2,428,256 14	1,210,000 00	16-40	5-471952 	2,538,165 87	1,900,000 00	16-92	5-64The Bank of Toronto- Fiscal year ended Nov. 30- 1950 	1,207,815 62	937,357 56	20-13	6-04195i 	1,116,234 35	946,583 70	18-60	5-581952 	1,163,220 00	1,055,481 00	19-39	5-82The Provincial Bank of Canada- Fiscal year ended Nov. 30- 1950 	336,493 73	150,000 00	8-41	5-611951 	306,024 53	270,146 27	7-65	5-101952 	332,844 71	367,137 27	7-92	5-28The Canadian Bank of Commerce- Fiscal year ended Oct. 31- 1950 	4,015,258 55	2,014,340 15	13-38	6-691951... 	4,023,145 46	3,005,000 00	13-41	6-711952 . 	4,510,641 00	4,330,000 00	15-03	6-94The Royal Bank of Canada- Fiscal year ended Nov. 30- 1950 	6,559,725 11	4,012,000 00	18-74	7-721951 	6,306,114 86	5,276,000 00	18-02	7-251952 	7,129,084 72	6,325,000 00	20-37	7-92The Dominion Bank- Fiscal year ended Oct. 31- 1950 	1,245,678 68	900,000 00	17-79	6-921951 	1,169,064 00	1,190,000 00	16-70	6-491952 	1,158,556 00	1,315,000 00	16-55	6-44

Questions
-	(1) Net profits	(2) Provision for dominion and provincial taxes	(3) Percentage of profits shown in (1) to paid-up capital	(3-a) Percentage of profits shown in (1) to paid-up capital and reserve funds$ cts.	$ cts.	%	%Banque Canadienne Nationale- Fiscal year ended Nov. 30-	1950	665,638 61	417,693 48	9-51	4-751951	802,612 18	713,354 76	11-47	5-731952	847,051 58	803,813 30	12-10	5-84Imperial Bank of Canada- Fiscal year ended Oct. 31-	1950	1,158,311 19	993,000 00	16-55	6-811951	1,236,400 25	1,150,000 00	17-66	6-871952	1,318,995 64	1,331,000 00	18-84	7-33Barclays Bank (Canada)- Fiscal year ended Sept. 30-	1950	12,160 57	674 09	*81	[DOT]411951	17,444 10 10,333 11	1-16 [DOT]69	[DOT]58 [DOT]341952	
Note to Column (2)
The amounts shown are those provided for taxes according to the annual statements of the banks and not necessarily the exact amounts paid. Provincial taxes are not included in some cases where amounts were not published.
Note to Column (3-a)
, 1 'Vs.!the r!*erve funds of the chartered banks represent moneys paid in by shareholders and undistributed profits, a more accurate picture is given by showing profits as a percentage of capital and
4.	It is not considered proper to disclose this information regarding individual banks. The government's policy in this connection was given to the banking and commerce committee by the Minister of Finance on June 6, 1944.
5.	During the fiscal years 1950 and 1951, none of the banks transferred from earnings to contingency reserves amounts which were considered to be in excess of reasonable requirements. The inspection of the contingency reserves of the banks for the 1952 fiscal years has not been completed.



TORBAY AIRPORT, NEWFOUNDLAND

Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Is Torbay airport, Newfoundland, to be removed from control of the Department of Transport and placed under the control of the Royal Canadian Air Force?
2.	If so, when is the transfer to be made?
3.	Have any requests been made by the United States government for the lengthening of runways at Torbay airport?
4.	If so, what requests have been made?
5.	Have other requests been made by the United States government in connection with facilities of the airport?
6.	If so, what requests have been made?
7.	Have any decisions been arrived at with respect to the request for lengthening of runways and changes in other facilities at the Torbay airport?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	Yes.
2.	As soon as the necessary arrangements have been made.
3 and 4. As a result of joint Canadian-United States discussions, agreement has been reached that it would be desirable to lengthen a runway at Torbay.
5 and 6. Yes.
7. One runway will be lengthened and the United States air force will be granted terminable use of certain buildings and facilities for administrative purposes.



DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT


Mr. Thatcher:: 1.	How many men and women were employed by the receiving licence section of the telecommunications division of the Department of Transport (a) December 31, 1952; (b) March 15, 1953?
2.	In view of the abolition of the $2.50 radio licence fee, what disposition is being made of the former staff?
3.	Has this abolition led to any reduction in overall civil service staff?
4.	If so, by what number?


Mr. Dickey:: 1. (a) Ottawa: male employees, 39; female employees, 65; outside offices, male employees, 4; female employees, 28; total, 136.

Questions
(b) Ottawa: male employees, 26; female employees, 54; outside offices, male employees, 3; female employees, 28; total, 111.
2.	All of the former staff will be reassigned to positions in the government service if they so desire. Permanent employees who do not wish to be considered for further employment will be retired on superannuation under the provisions of the superannuation act.
3.	Yes.
4.	A total of 115 positions on the establishment of this department will be abolished.



ARMED FORCES BENEVOLENT FUNDS

Mr. Green:: 1.	Are veterans with Korean service eligible for assistance from the navy, army and air force benevolent funds?
2.	Is there a difference in the treatment of such veterans depending on the branch of the service to which they belong?
3.	If so, for what reason is such distinction made?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	(a) Canadian naval service benevolent trust fund: Yes.
(b)	Army benevolent fund: No.
The army benevolent fund was established by act of parliament to administer funds remaining from canteen operations during the second world war. It provides assistance for veterans who served in the Canadian army during the period September, 1939 to September, 1946. To be eligible for benefits, a Korean veteran must also have served during the above period.
(c)	R.C.A.F. benevolent fund: Yes.
2.	(a) No.
(b)	Not applicable.
(c)	No.
3.	Not applicable.



SHEDIAC BRIDGE WHARF, KENT COUNTY, N.B.

Mr. Robichaud:: 1.	Was the work performed in 1952 on the Shediac Bridge wharf, Kent county, New Brunswick, by contract or otherwise?
2.	If by contract (a) what are the names and addresses of each tenderer; (b) the amount of each tender; (c) to whom was the contract awarded?
3.	Has the work on the said wharf been completed as planned?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	No work was performed in 1952, but a contract was awarded on March 17, 1953, to Modem Construction Limited of Moncton, N.B., for the construction of a wharf at Shediac Bridge, N.B.
2.	(a) and (b):
Modern Construction Limited, Moncton, N.B., $20,085.50.
L. G. & M. H. Smith Limited, Port Hood Island, N.S., $20,469.50.

Wheaton Bros., Ltd., Moncton, N.B., $20,613.70.
J. W. & J. Anderson, Ltd., Burnt Church, N.B., $20,784.50.
J. S. Parker, Saint John, N.B., $21,940.00.
Whalen Bros. Construction, Newcastle, N.B., $22,086.16.
Diamond Construction Co., Fredericton, N.B., $22,358.00.
Frank H. Legoff, Richibucto, N.B., $22,995.00.
Comeau & Savoie, Caraquet, N.B., $26,548.50.
Clare Construction Co., Ltd., Little Brook, N.S., $28,712.00.
(c) Modern Construction Limited, Moncton, N.B.
3.	Work is expected to commence at the beginning of the construction season, 1953.



ARMED FORCES, PERSONNEL AND COST

Mr. Robichaud:: 1.	What has been the average annual cost to Canada for each person in our armed forces, during the years 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952?
2.	What is the total number of persons actually in our armed forces?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1. Average Annual Personnel Costs
Officers and
Officers Men Men
1949	
$5191	$2578	$29751950	
5459	2788	31741951	
5669	2993	33931952	
6094	3216	3645
Personnel costs consist of: pay and allowances; subsistence; maintenance of clothing and personal equipment; travel and transportation; medical and dental care; government contribution to pension fund.
2. As at February 28, 1953: 103,573.



CUBAN REFINED SUGAR

Mr. Murphy:: 1.	Did any representatives of the Canadian sugar refiners go to Cuba, as announced by the Minister of Trade and Commerce?
2.	If so, who were the representatives and with what companies were such representatives identified?
3.	If representation was made, was any report made to the government?
4.	Is the minister aware that Cuban refined sugar continues to be sold and delivered in the London, Toronto, Hamilton markets without interruption?
5.	If so. what action does the government intend taking regarding the importation of Cuban refined sugar into this area?


Mr. Mcllraifh:: 1. Yes.

2.	Messrs. J. R. Crawford, vice-president, St. Lawrence Sugar Refineries Limited, Montreal, P.Q., and Lewis J. Seidensticker, president, Atlantic Sugar Refineries Limited, Montreal, P.Q., proceeded to Cuba as representatives of the refineries and not as official representatives of the Canadian government.
3.	No, but the representatives have intimated that they will come to Ottawa as soon as convenient and make a verbal report.
4.	Yes, a few car loads have been imported through the United States.
5.	See statement on sugar situation by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, commencing on page 1836 of Hansard, February 11, 1953.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


DEPUTY MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	What is the total number of the staff of the ofBce of the deputy minister of national defence?
2.	What are the sub-totals directly under each of
the following:	(a) associate deputy minister
(special duties); (b) assistant deputy minister (finance); (c) assistant deputy minister (administration and personnel); (d) assistant deputy minister (requirements), giving the titles and numbers of positions in each case?
3.	What was the total establishment of the office of each of the deputy ministers of national defence for navy, army and air force during the years 1944, 1945 and 1946, respectively?


Joseph-Adéodat Blanchette: Return tabled.



FISHERY PRODUCTS IMPORTED

Mr. Higgins:: 1.	What was the value of fishery products imported into Canada in 1952?
2.	From what countries were such fishery products imported?
3.	What was the fishery product imported from each such country and what was the value thereof?



UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, NEW BRUNSWICK

Mr. Robichaud:: 1.	How many persons received unemployment insurance cheques in each month and in each county of the province of New Brunswick, during the years 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952?
2.	What were the total amounts paid in unemployment insurance in each county of the said province, in each month of the above mentioned years?
3.	How many unemployed persons were reported in each county of the province of New Brunswick, during the months of .January and February, 1953?



FIELD CROPS, DOLLAR VALUE

Mr. Diefenbaker:: What is the estimated gross dollar value of the principal field crops produced on Canadian farms in (a) 1952, and (b) 1951?
Orders for Returns



PORK PRODUCTS, ETC.-SALES TO BRITAIN

Mr. Fair:: 1.	What is the value of (a) pork or pork products; (b) cheese; (c) eggs; (d) butter; (e) apples, sold to Britain in each of the years 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951 and 1952?
2.	What is the value of contracts for each of the above commodities with Britain for 1953?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Robichaud:: For a copy of all payrolls, orders or vouchers for the purchase, transportation and hauling of materials and supplies in connection with the construction and/or repair of the public wharf at Cullens Brook, Bonaventure county, Quebec, from the 1st day of October, 1952, to the 31st day of December, 1952.



PORT ALFRED, QUE.-PUBLIC BUILDING

Paul-Edmond Gagnon: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents, exchanged between any person or persons and the Department of Public Works, or any other department of the government, from January 1, 1940 to date, relating to the construction of a public building in Port Alfred, Quebec, also a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the different departments of the government, during the same period, relative to this question.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: There is no objection to passing the first part of this order of the house, but the second part reads:
-also a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the different departments of the government, during the same period, relevant to the question.
That correspondence would be of a confidential nature. If my hon. friend requested a building at for example, Port Alfred, I would have to consult the officials of the different departments to see if the need was there before the government would make a decision. These documents would be of a confidential nature.


Mr. Speaker:: Will the motion carry with
the exception that all the words after "Port Alfred, Quebec" be struck out?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Paul-Edmond Gagnon: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and other documents, exchanged between any person or persons and the Department of Public Works, or any other department of the government, from January 1, 1940 to date, relating to the construction of a public building in Chicoutimi, Quebec; also a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the different departments of the government, during the same period, regarding this question.

Motions for Papers


Alphonse Fournier: The remarks which
I made on the previous resolution would apply to this resolution.


Mr. Speaker:: Will the resolution carry with the exception that all the words after "Chicoutimi, Quebec" be struck out?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Murphy:: For a copy of the report of the representatives of the sugar refiners on their mission to Cuba, following the announcement by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Mr. Mcllraith:: Mr. Speaker, there is no such report as the one requested in this motion for the production of papers; therefore I ask that it be dropped.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



INDIAN AFFAIRS-LEASES GRANTED IN SASKATCHEWAN

Major James William Coldwell: For a copy of leases granted by the Indian affairs department to individuals and companies in the province of Saskatchewan from 1945 to the present by reservations.


Alphonse Fournier: My colleague, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Harris), being absent, I would ask the hon. member if he will allow this motion to stand.


Major James William Coldwell: I shall be glad to have it stand; indeed I would be glad to withdraw it for redrafting, because I am told it would involve a long list of leases. I think I can make it more specific. If that is agreeable, I would ask leave to withdraw the motion in order to redraft it.


Mr. Speaker:: Withdrawn.



CANADIAN FORCES ACT


Brooke Claxton: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the National Defence Act in respect of certain offences committed by members of the forces out of Canada, to provide for the custody of members of the forces found guilty by civil courts in Canada or by civil or military tribunals of countries other than Canada, and to provide for the disposition of certain classes of appeals; also to amend the Defence Services Pension Act respecting the service that may be counted for purposes of the act and to make pensions payable to the widows and children of persons to whom section

46E of the act applies; and also to amend the Canadian forces voting regulations respecting the completion of statements of ordinary residence.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. A. Cruickshank (Fraser Valley):: I
should like to direct a question to the Right Hon. Minister of Agriculture. Is the government ready to make an announcement on butter prices?


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: Under authority of order in
council, P. C. 2023, of April 27, 1951, the agricultural prices support board was authorized to purchase first-grade creamery butter during the period May 1, 1951, to April 30, 1953. Under authority of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section 9 of the Agricultural Prices Support Act, 1944, the agricultural prices support board now proposes to offer to purchase from May 1, 1953, to April 30, 1955, first-grade creamery butter produced in Canada, and under authority of paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of section 9 of the said act proposes to prescribe the following prices therefor:
Fifty-eight cents per pound basis delivery Halifax, Saint John, Montreal and Toronto.
Fifty-seven cents basis delivery Vancouver.
All purchases to be subject to such terms and conditions as may be specified by the agricultural prices support board. I may say by way of explanation that four years ago we established floor prices of 58 cents basis Montreal and Toronto. Three years ago we reduced that to 53 cents. Two years ago we put it back to 58 cents and made it apply for two years instead of one. This year we are just extending the policy as it has been for the last two years for the next two years.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Major James William Coldwell: I
should like to ask the acting minister of external affairs if the government has joined in the protest reported to have been made by the United States embassy to the government of Colombia because of an attack upon

the Rev. Stanley Wright, formerly of Tisdale, Saskatchewan? If so, what acknowledgment, if any, has been made of the protest?


Brooke Claxton: The Canadian
ambassador took up his duties only on March 23. He has been asked to make inquiries and report. When the report is received instructions will be given to him to suit the circumstances.
(Translation):


NATIONAL DEFENCE
Mr. Leon Balcer (Three Rivers):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton) if he is now ready to answer the question I put to him last Wednesday about the firing range at Baie-du-Febvre?


Brooke Claxton: Not yet, Mr. Speaker.
(Text):



HOUSING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. R. R. Knight (Saskatoon):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Resources and Development. In view of the severe housing shortage in Saskatoon and in view of the fact that mortgage money for building is almost unobtainable, will the minister authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation under section 31A of the National Housing Act to use its own funds to provide housing loans?


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Resources and Development):: Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is authorized to make loans under section 31A of the National Housing Act where such loans are not being made available by lending institutions. In 1952 there were two major lending institutions making loans under the National Housing Act in Saskatoon. One of these lending institutions intends to make about the same number of loans this year and the other lending institution is giving consideration to whether or not they will operate in Saskatoon. These circumstances are now being reviewed with the lending institutions by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and it is hoped that National Housing Act loans in about the same amount as in 1952 will be available this year. It is not the policy of the government to authorize Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Inquiries of the Ministry to make direct loans under section 31A in areas in which the lending institutions are operating, which is the case at the present time in Saskatoon.
I might add that in 1952 there were 651 new starts in Saskatoon compared with 410 in 1951. As of January, 1952, there were 264 units under construction whereas on January 1, 1953, there were 468 units under construction, thereby ensuring a good level of completions this year.



FISHERIES RESEARCH BOARD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. Watson MacNaughi (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries):: On
Friday last, when the supplementary estimates of the Department of Fisheries were being considered by the committee of supply, the hon. member for St. John's West asked the Minister of Fisheries when the report of the fisheries research board would be available. In reply thereto, I may say to him that at the present time the report is being printed by the queen's printer, and as soon as copies are available they will be tabled.



PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Francis Higgins: I
should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Is he in a position to make a statement with respect to pensions for former members of the Newfoundland railway, postal and telegraph services?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport):: I am not in a position to make a statement because this is a matter which concerns not only the Department of Transport but other departments. It is a very complicated question and, as the hon. member knows, it is also receiving the attention of my colleague, the Secretary of State, as indicated in the letter which he was good enough to send over to me. Until such time as there is greater opportunity to consider the points at issue, I am afraid I cannot make a statement.
(Translation):



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Albany M. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, may I put a question to the Secre-

Customs Tariff
tary of State (Mr. Bradley)? When will his department finally decide to table the file which is the subject of a motion for papers appearing in my name and adopted by the house on January 28 last?
I had asked, at that time, for a copy of all correspondence exchanged in connection with the teaching of religion and French at Wood-falle School, Royal Canadian Air Force station, Rockcliffe, Ontario. This order appears at page 193 of the Votes and Proceedings of January 28.
(Text):


Hon. F. G. Bradley (Secretary of State):: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately my knowledge of the French language is not profound enough for me to have gathered completely the purport of what my hon. friend has said, but I shall be glad to look into the matter.



CUSTOMS TARIFF

Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 227, to amend the Customs Tariff.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Jutras in the chair.
On section 1-Schedule A amended.
Mr. Fleming:: The explanatory note indicates that the purpose of the bill is to implement the budget resolutions relating to the Customs Tariff. I must say that, notwithstanding a very diligent review of the budget resolutions in relation to the Customs Tariff, I do not find any corresponding with the first section of the bill having to do with cigarettes. Will the parliamentary assistant to the minister favour us with an explanation of section 1 of the bill?


Jean Lesage: If the hon. member for Eglin-ton will look at the resolutions, he will see that resolution No. 2 covers section 1 exactly.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Resolution No. 2 under the Customs Tariff?


Jean Lesage: Under the Customs Tariff.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What page?


Jean Lesage: Page 6.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Can the parliamentary
assistant give us the Hansard reference?1


Jean Lesage: I do not have Hansard in front of me but I have the budget resolutions as they were distributed to all members, and I remember quite vividly that a week ago Thursday we adopted resolution 2. We dropped resolution 1 and adopted resolution 2.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I was referring to the Hansard containing the budget speech of the minister followed by the budget resolutions. On looking at these it strikes me that it may well be that a couple of the resolutions were not printed in the Hansard of April 8. If the parliamentary assistant will look at page 1262 he will find there under Customs Tariff resolution No. 1-


Jean Lesage: The budget was brought down on February 19 this year. April 8 was the date of the bringing down of the budget in 1952.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sorry; I have the wrong copy.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I should like to ask a question regarding the duty on cigarettes inasmuch as we are now getting certain American cigarettes that are regularly imported into Canada. I tried to get the information from the department this morning. I called the minister's office. I am told that there is a difference between the tax and duty on United States cigarettes coming into Canada and the taxes on our own cigarettes. I should like some information about that. At the same time I should like the parliamentary assistant to tell me whether the fact that a pack of twenty imported cigarettes is lighter in weight than a similar package of twenty Canadian cigarettes also enters into the picture so far as the cost to the consumer, the rate of duty and the customs tariff are concerned. The reason I would like to have an explanation is that there is an ad valorem tax. I assume it is based on value and, inasmuch as tobacco that goes into American cigarettes may be purchased at a price lower than we have to pay in Canada, that would also enter into the picture. If by any chance there is a difference in the tax it would, of course, be reflected in our growers' prices as well as the manufacturers' prices.
I hope I have made that clear.


Jean Lesage: Mr. Chairman, I am holding in my hands two tables showing the combined duties and taxes on cigarettes of various sizes imported into Canada, together with the corresponding figures for excise duties and taxes on Canadian cigarettes. The first table shows the figures before the proposed changes and the second table shows the figures after the proposed changes. If it is agreeable I would like to have these two tables placed on Hansard at this point.


The Acting Chairman (Mr. Jutras):: Is that agreeable to the committee?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.

Customs Tariff


Jean Lesage: The tables are as follows:
DUTY AND TAXES ON 1000 CIGARETTES VALUED AT $3.55 PER 1000 Before the 1953 Budget .
-	Weighing 2i lbs. per 1000	Weighing 2-74 lbs. per 1000	Weighing 3-2 lbs. per 1000When Imported from the U.S.- Customs duty of $2.00 per pound	$ 5-00 .53 2.00 4.00 1.10	$ 5.48 .53 2.00 4.00 1.15	$ 6.40 .53and 15 p.c. ad valorem	Additional duty of $2.00 per 1000	Excise tax (2 cts. on each 5 cigarettes)	4 00 1.05Sales tax (10 p.c.)	When Canadian Made- Excise duty	$ 12.63	$ 13.16	S 11.98$ 6.00 4.00 .95	$ 11.00 4.00 1.46	$ 11.00 4.00 1.46Excise tax (2 cts. on each 5 cigarettes)	Sales tax (10 p.c.)	
$ 10.95	$ 16.46	$ 16.46
DUTY AND TAXES ON 1000 CIGARETTES VALUED AT $3.55 PER 1000 After the 1953 Budget
-	Weighing 2\ lbs. per 1000	Weighing 2-74 lbs. per 1000	Weighing 3-2 lbs. per 1000When Imported from the U.S.- Customs duty of $2.00 per pound	$ 5.00 .53 4.00 .90	$ 5.48 .53 4.00 .95	$ 6.40 .53 4.00 1.05and 15 p.c. ad valorem	Excise tax (2 cts. on each 5 cigarettes)	Sales tax (10 p.c.)	When Canadian Made- Excise duty	$ 10.43	$ 10.96	$ 11.98$ 4.00 4.00 .75	$ 5.00 4.00 .85	$ 5.00 4.00 .85Excise tax (2 cts. on each 5 cigarettes)	Sales tax (10 p.c.)	
$ 8.75	$ 9.85	$ 9.85

Customs Tariff


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does the statement cover both customs duties and excise taxes?


Jean Lesage: Yes, and I am going to explain. The table shows, for instance, that up to February 1, or February 20 in the case of the customs tariff, the customs duty on regular size cigarettes, Camels and Chesterfields for example, imported from the United States, was $2 per pound plus 15 per cent ad valorem, a total of $5.53 cents per thousand cigarettes. The customs duty of $2 per pound is the equivalent of $5 per thousand cigarettes. The ad valorem duty is the equivalent of 53 cents. Then there was an additional duty of $2 per thousand and an excise tax of 2 cents on each 5 cigarettes. If you add the sales tax of $1.10 you get a figure of $12.63 for the total aggregate customs and excise taxes on American cigarettes imported into Canada. The addition of the excise duty, excise tax and sales tax on Canadian cigarettes before the proposed changes give a figure of $10.95 which means that the difference, the protection for the Canadian cigarettes, is $1.68.
In this bill it is proposed to take off the $2 additional duty on imported cigarettes, not only American, and reduce the excise duty on Canadian cigarettes from $6 to $4. The reduction is the same in each case and, consequently, the spread will be the same- $1.68-which will remain the protection in favour of Canadian cigarettes. That means that American cigarettes cannot compete on the market any more now than they could before the proposed changes.
There is a difference with respect to king size cigarettes and that is the reason for the proposed change in the excise duty instead of the excise tax. Up to now there was no additional customs duty on imported king size cigarettes, and the combined customs duty, excise and sales taxes on imported king size cigarettes was $11.98. Because of an excise duty of $11 per thousand on Canadian-made king size cigarettes, had they been manufactured, the aggregate of such excise duties and sales taxes would have been $16.46, which would have given a spread in favour of the American or other imported cigarettes of around $4.50. Therefore, in the proposed changes in the Excise Act, which we will study in a few minutes, the duty will be dropped from $11 to $5. The protection in favour of any Canadian-made king size cigarettes from now on will be $2.12 per thousand.
I believe that all that I have said can be much more easily understood by looking at the two tables which are very clear and give every tax and duty in detail.
;Mr. Lesage.]


Joseph Warner Murphy: There is just one point which I would like to have clarified. I understand from the parliamentary assistant that $1.68 is the difference between the combined duties and taxes on Canadian cigarettes and American cigarettes. The tax on the imported cigarettes is that much greater. Is that right?


Jean Lesage: That is right.


Joseph Warner Murphy: There is the question of weight. Do you know what our ordinary cigarettes weigh per thousand? The way you have it figured there, at $5 for customs duty, that would be two and a half pounds per thousand cigarettes. However, do our cigarettes weigh more than that?


Jean Lesage: Our cigarettes weigh 2'49 pounds per thousand. Our ordinary cigarettes are about the same weight as the ordinary American cigarettes. No Canadian king size cigarettes are manufactured and I suppose that one of the reasons is that there was a combined excise duty, excise and sales tax of $16.46 per thousand. That will now be reduced to $9.86.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Do you happen to have the invoice price of American cigarettes-for instance Shirley cigarettes?


Jean Lesage: I am informed that it has been $3.55 until lately when the price increased to $3.90.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I wonder if this could not stand, because I would like to take a look at the schedule you have. It will only take me a few minutes, and I will give the copies back to you.
(Translation):


Albany M. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, I should like to direct a few questions to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Lesage). These questions have nothing to do with cigarettes but rather with a tariff item having to do with the act to amend the Customs Tariff, but which, unfortunately, does not appear among the tariff items to be amended-


Jean Lesage: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Could I ask that we stick, for the time being, to the question of cigarettes. I do not want to prevent the hon. member from speaking about an item which is not mentioned in the list, although we could prevent him from doing so, under the rules of the house; however it seems to me that the discussion would be very much simplified if he would only wait until we came to the next clause of the bill.


Albany M. Robichaud: If it will suit the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance better I will be happy to accept his suggestion and I will tell him immediately what interests me, as he probably has guessed- it is the tariff item that pertains to ropes used by fishermen in the fishing industry.


Jean Lesage: I think I can reply immediately. It is our intention, when we examine the bill to amend the Excise Tax Act-and I think that will come up tomorrow-to move that the sales tax be abolished on all ropes used in the fishing industry, including all those measuring one and a half inches or more in circumference.
As far as the small protection on ropes measuring more than one and a half inches is concerned, such protection is necessary, according to the information I have been given, because there is in Canada a rather important rope manufacturing industry. Therefore, although the government's policy is to make international trade as free as possible, it remains that Canadian industries- within the framework of international agreements to which we are party with regard to tariffs-are entitled to a certain degree of protection.
It is the best answer I can give to my hon. friend, although I would add that following his speech on this subject, I discussed the matter at length with the tariff commissioner and officers of the Department of National Revenue, and I was given the assurance that the question will be studied by them before the next budget is prepared, because they want to obtain information both from those engaged in commercial or industrial fishing operations and the people who manufacture such ropes.


Albany M. Robichaud: I wouldn't like to miss this opportunity of expressing my appreciation to the parliamentary assistant for the remarks he has just made, ensuring me of a rather substantial reduction with regard to the excise tax on cables and ropes used by our fishermen.
Now I have certain observations which I would like to put in Hansard with regard to the tariff on ropes and cables. Would the parliamentary assistant indicate when it would be best for me to do so, because I would like to say a few words on the matter before we pass on to the next bill.


Jean Lesage: I think that the hon. member may as well make his remarks immediately, because I am waiting for the hon. member for Lambton West (Mr. Murphy) to finish examining the statements I have just given him, before proceeding with our discussion of the duty on cigarettes.
. Customs Tariff


Albany M. Robichaud: I should like to ask the parliamentary assistant a question. Would he have any information on the quantities of hempen or manila cables imported into Canada from British commonwealth countries during 1952?


Jean Lesage: In 1951, ropes imported from all countries amounted to 1,861,000 pounds and were valued at $658,600. Over one million pounds were imported from the United Kingdom and approximately 637,000 pounds from The Netherlands, or Holland.
Now I must say that those figures include all kinds of rope, including that of less than one and a half inches in circumference.


Albany M. Robichaud: Those figures are for 1951?


Jean Lesage: I do not have them for 1952.


Albany M. Robichaud: You do not have them?


Jean Lesage: No, not for 1952.


Albany M. Robichaud: You mentioned Holland and The Netherlands; I understand that those countries-


Jean Lesage: It is the same country.


Albany M. Robichaud: I understand that the mostfavoured-nation tariff applies to those countries?


Jean Lesage: The British preferential tariff, applies to the United Kingdom, while the most-favoured-nation tariff applies to Holland.


Albany M. Robichaud: Now, according to the present rates of duty, manila rope or hemp of more than one inch in circumference is, according to tariff item 575, subject to a rate of 20 per cent under British preferential tariff, of 22J per cent under the mostfavoured-nation tariff and of 25 per cent under the general tariff; are my figures correct?


Jean Lesage: Yes, but importation of manila ropes and other vegetable ropes is not covered by item 575. Our importations, I think, under item 575 do not amount to very much-


Albany M. Robichaud: Refer to item 539.


Jean Lesage: Importation of rope and lines is covered by item 539.


Albany M. Robichaud: I have looked over the list of customs duties and I feel somewhat perplexed as to item 539-which we both mentioned a moment ago-and item 575; could you make this clearer?


Jean Lesage: Mr. Chairman, it has to do with nylon rope. Nylon rope is the one which has a wire through the middle; it is imported under item 575 whereas those of vegetable origin are imported under item 539. I could

Customs Tariff
also correct the figures given by my hon. triend in so far as the commonwealth preferential tariff is concerned; it is 17J per cent minus a discount of 10 per cent, under item 539, with regard to the rope my hon. friend referred to a moment ago. In other words the duty on rope valued at $500, at the rate of 15J per cent, will therefore be $78.05 and the sales tax $57.88, totalling $135.93 and not $160 as was claimed by my hon. friend. He will see tomorrow that with regard to this year's budget there will be a reduction from $160 to $78.05 since the sales tax will disappear through an amendment which I intend to move.


Albany M. Robichaud: May I interrupt my hon. friend? I had based my calculations on $1,000 and not on $500, as far as item 575 was concerned. That is why there is a difference.
Now will the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance tell me if there have been any changes or amendments with regard to item No. '539, in the past 20 years, shall we say?


Jean Lesage: My hon. friend will understand that I have not all the relevant information before me, because this tariff item has not yet been amended this year; but, according to the information I have at hand, there has not been any change in the last few years.


Albany M. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, I made some inquiries-and I believe that I have already referred to that in my remarks to the house- and was assured that there have been no changes, either in item 575 or in item 539, in over 20 years; therefore, the information I have on the subject would be correct.
Now, it is a fact that the rope or cable which does not exceed 1J inches in circumference-that is, the rope used in commercial fishing-comes in free.


Jean Lesage: I regret to say I did not understand.


Albany M. Robichaud: You did not understand and I know why, it is because you were talking with the minister; therefore I shall repeat what I said. It is a fact that the rope or cable used for commercial fishing purposes and not exceeding 1J inches in circumference enters free of duty under the present customs tariff. The tariff item which deals with that is No. 682.


Jean Lesage: You are right, that is exact; under No. 682.


Albany M. Robichaud: On the other hand, any rope or cable over 1J inches in circumference, even if it is to be used for commercial fishing purposes, is subject to the rate of duty which I mentioned a moment ago.


Jean Lesage: Everything hinges on the interpretation given by my hon. friend and on the words used to define the lines or ropes used for fishing. If the hon. member includes the rope which for instance is used to secure the fishing craft to the pier or wharf, then his interpretation is not exact because such rope enters duty free. The duty applies only to rope used solely for fishing purposes, when such rope exceeds 1J inches in circumference.


Albany M. Robichaud: I assure my hon. friend that I do not mean the rope used as fittings on the ships themselves, because such rope becomes part of the ship.
But I mean any rope over 1J inches in circumference which is used for fishing-for instance the rope which is used to link up lobster traps or generally used for fishing; such rope is subject to the rate of duty we mentioned a moment ago.


Jean Lesage: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to repeat what I said, but for the last 15 or 20 minutes we have been a little out of order.


The Chairman:: Order. Then if these items are not mentioned, I am sorry that my attention was not called to that fact sooner; I would ask the hon. member to confine himself to the items under disscussion.
(Text):


Joseph Warner Murphy: Perhaps this can be clarified. What is bothering me is the ad valoreum duty. Am I correct when I say that that is based on the invoice price of the cigarette, which of course would be based on the cost of the raw material?


Jean Lesage: The ad valorem duties in general, and it includes this case, are always based on the fair market value in the country of origin.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Would it be agreeable to hon. members if I were to call the schedule page by page?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.

Customs Tariff
415a (iii) Refrigerator parts, of iron or steel or of which iron or steel or both are the component materials of chief value	
443d Gas control devices of a class or kind not made in Canada:
(1)	for use on cooking apparatus or on apparatus for heating
buildings or in the gas line between such apparatus and the meter; and parts thereof	
(2)	for the manufacture or repair of, or for conversion to, gasfired apparatus for cooking or for heating buildings; and parts thereof	
per cent	per cent	per centn	20	35per cent	per centFree	n	30Free	n	30


Mr. Knowles:: I should like to make a few comments and ask a few questions which I would relate to item 415a and also to item 443d. The parliamentary assistant will note that these items refer at least in part to refrigerators and cooking apparatus. I would appreciate it very much if the parliamentary assistant could tell us just what the present situation is with respect to duties on refrigerators and on stoves. I have in mind various kinds of refrigerators and stoves, but in particular electric refrigerators and electric stoves because they are so largely used in this country.
As hon. members realize, these articles have become almost necessities in the average Canadian household, and I am sure it is correct to say that a great many Canadians are painfully aware of how much more these articles cost in this country than they do for example in the United States. That has always been the ease, but with the increase in the cost of these articles the differential has become even greater, and many of our people wonder whether it is not time, particularly with a Liberal government in power, for some of these customs duties against these articles to be reduced or removed so that our people might be able to purchase for their households these articles at more reasonable prices.
As I say, I should like to have from the parliamentary assistant a statement as to what the situation is with respect to customs duties on stoves and refrigerators. I should also like to hear from him whether he can inform us what consideration has been given by the government to reducing or removing these duties so that electric stoves and refrigerators might come down to more reasonable prices for the Canadian consumer.
While I am on my feet and making these references to electric stoves, may I also ask the parliamentary assistant whether he can tell us why there is a ban against the importation of certain new types of electric ranges. I do not wish to give free advertising to any one particular manufacturer, but I could send across to him and to the officials who are with him this little folder advertising a certain type
of electric range known as the table top type which is becoming very popular amongst the women of the United States and popular in anticipation amongst the women of this country. I know that the Canadian Association of Consumers has circularized its members to ascertain from them what type of electric stove would be most desirable at the present time. The percentage who have expressed preference for this table top type is very high. Women in Canada know about it, but only through reading advertisements in American magazines showing these innovations. Yet I am told there is a complete ban against the bringing of this type into Canada at all. It has been suggested to some of the distributors who have made inquiries that these articles do not meet the electrical standards established in this country. *In reply to that I am told they do meet the standards approved by underwriters laboratories in the United States and it would seem-


Jean Lesage: There is no federal ban on these stoves. If there is any difficulty it will have to be taken up with the hydroelectric authorities in the provinces.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is not the information I have.


Jean Lesage: It is the information I have from the officers administering customs.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Then I shall take up that aspect of the matter at a later time with the officials. I am glad to hear the parliamentary assistant say that, so far as the federal government is concerned, there is no such ban. I hope this is not a form of protection under a false guise.
To return to the other question, I would ask the parliamentary assistant to give us the picture respecting customs duties on refrigerators and stoves, and what consideration has been given to the adoption of a more Liberal policy with respect to the importation of these important articles.


Jean Lesage: Item 415a deals only with refrigerator parts, not with complete refrigerators. It reduces the British preferential tariff from 10 per cent to 74 per cent and the most-favoured-nation tariff from 224 per


Stanley Howard Knowles: Has any consideration been given to either reducing or eliminating the tariff on these items?


Jean Lesage: Consideration is given continually. It was reduced at Torquay, and the subject is continually under review. The same applies to all these tariff items. This is in line with the general policy of the government I indicated the other day, under which foreign trade should be as free as possible. On the other hand we have some industries in Canada manufacturing both refrigerators and stoves.
May I draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that under 443d, as originally drawn in the resolution, only gas controlled devices for heating apparatus were mentioned. When the resolutions were under discussion the Minister of National Revenue moved an amendment to include gas controlled devices for use on cooking apparatus, so that it would not apply only to heating apparatus. Those devices, as well as the timing apparatus, are not made in Canada.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Do the tariff rates on cooking apparatus as a whole correspond to the rates listed opposite item 443d, or do they correspond with the refrigerator rates? Could we have the figures?


Jean Lesage: The rates are 15 per cent and 22J per cent.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On stoves?


Jean Lesage: Yes, on stoves.


Stanley Howard Knowles: 
Jean Lesage: Yes, and 35 per cent.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It seems to me the parliamentary assistant has not made out a very good case in support of his contention that this government believes in as free trade as possible, when he has to announce that there are still in existence tariff rates as high as these on items as important to the Canadian consumer as refrigerators and stoves.
(Translation):


Albany M. Robichaud: Mr. Chairman, may I be permitted to revert to customs tariff item No. 403 at page 2140? I overlooked that item because you mention the page instead of the individual numbers. This new item relates
fMr. Lesage.]
to wire cable. May I ask the parliamentary assistant to give me the value of imports of wire cable in 1951?


Jean Lesage: The imports were approximately $50,000 per year. That is an approximate figure.


Albany M. Robichaud: About $50,000?


Jean Lesage: Yes, approximately $50,000 from what the officers can estimate.


Albany M. Robichaud: In connection with that figure of $50,000 could you tell me how much was imported from British commonwealth countries and how much from countries subject to the most-favoured-nation tariff?


Jean Lesage: I do not have exact figures, but I am told that imports are mainly from the United States. That is the best reply I can give to my hon. friend.


Albany M. Robichaud: Would it be correct to state that wire ropes and cables for use in commercial fishing operations are imported mostly from the United States?


Jean Lesage: Wire cable imports for other use than for rigging ships, sinking wells, forestry operations, amounted to $1,535,509 in 1952. Of this amount, of $1,535,509, as I said a moment ago, $50,000 represented wire cables imported for use in commercial fishing operations. May I add that half of that amount of a million and a half represented the value of imports from the United States, less than half the value of imports from the United Kingdom and the rest, that is to say approximately $100,000, from Germany, Holland and Belgium.


Albany M. Robichaud: May I ask the parliamentary assistant to be more definite and tell me, for instance, what is the total value of imports from the United States as compared with those from the British commonwealth?


Jean Lesage: United States, $767,471; United Kingdom, $648,412; Germany, $75,375; Netherlands, $26,787; Belgium, $11,271.


Albany M. Robichaud: Now, could the parliamentary assistant indicate what quantities of these importations are for use in commercial fishing operations?


Jean Lesage: I said I could not, Mr. Chairman, since these figures are not kept separately by the officials of the Department of National Revenue.


Albany M. Robichaud: But where do they get the figure of $50,000 which, according to them, is supposed to represent the imports of metal rope used exclusively in commercial fishing operations.


Jean Lesage: That is the information I got from the officials of the Department of National Revenue.


Albany M. Robichaud: But where do they get it?


Jean Lesage: I have no idea. I do not think they would be able to give me that information.
(Text):


Mr. Fair:: When the budget resolutions were under discussion some days ago I brought up the question of small gasoline engines and the conditions under which they are allowed to enter the country. I understand that the parliamentary assistant was going to give this matter some consideration because in my opinion, and I think in his also, some of the conditions attached to the importation of these engines are not very practical. I wonder if consideration has been given to this matter?


Jean Lesage: May I say that the engine does not have to be bolted to the machine or attached to the machine; it is permitted to come in duty free if it is on the same skid as the machine. As I said the other day, consideration will be given to the possibility of allowing more latitude to farmers in this connection. I would state however that small engines are made in'Canada in considerable quantity, the three horsepower and five horsepower size particularly. It is estimated that about 70 per cent of all small engines used in Canada are now admitted duty free for use with agricultural implements or agricultural machinery. I repeat that the situation with regard to small engines for use on the farm will be further reviewed. We hope to be in a position to arrive at a decision before the next budget is presented. These matters require a lot of information and that is in the process of being gathered.


Robert Fair: That is a little better than we had a year ago. These engines can be brought in from the United States at prices lower than youi must pay in Canada. The previous regulations made it necessary for the engine to be bolted down. If you are using a small engine with a fanning mill you do not bolt it down, you simply set it on the ground and possibly drive in a stake or two to keep it in line with the mill. The regulations should be made practical as well as possible. If that were done I do not think there would be so many kicks coming in from the farmers. The forms that have to be filled out by the dealer and the farmer are simply impractical and impossible to live up to if you are going to make general use of engines on the farm.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall we pass on to page 7 and page 8?
Excise Act


[Stage Direction]
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

Alphonse Fournier: the second reading of Bill No. 226, to amend the Excise Act, 1934.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make just a brief comment on the motion for the second reading of this bill. This is a short bill and its provisions are quite clear. I recall that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) had this to say in. his budget speech on February 19 in connection with this particular proposal, and I quote from page 2132 of Hansard as fallows:
A further reduction in the levy on cigarettes seems desirable. It is clear that following the reduction made last year there was a quite definite increase in cigarette sales which, from the point of view of the revenue collector, is very encouraging. Smuggling, I regret to say, is still a difficult problem. I have accordingly decided to recommend that the excise duty, and correspondingly the customs duty, on cigarettes be reduced by $2.00 per thousand which, for a package of twenty cigarettes, means four cents off. Not knowing in advance what effect this further cut will have on the volume of consumption, or the amount of smuggling, it is impossible to estimate what the revenue loss from this move will be. A fair estimate is that it will not be more than $17 million.
I speak as one who does not smoke and who is not personally affected by this present bill. But as a non-smoker I wish to say that I think the taxes on cigarettes and tobacco are still too high. I wish to say also that if we have a smuggling problem at the border today with respect to cigarettes it is largely the creation of this government by the boosting sky-high of excise taxes and other impositions on cigarettes, particularly the large advances in taxes that were made two years ago.
At that time you will remember that the total government imposition on cigarettes in this country amounted to almost three times the taxes in effect in the United States. If you are looking for an explanation of the smuggling I think it can be placed right on the doorstep of the government because of its policy of high taxation. We are glad to see this very modest reduction in taxes being made. It is a step in the right direction. However, it seems to me that it is going to take more than this modest step to break the habit which the government by its unwise policy has taught many people to form.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
3412	HOUSE OF
Farm Improvement Loans Act On section 2-Coming into force. (Translation):
Albany M. Robichaud: In the schedule to this bill I note, under the title "Marine and Fisheries", rope and cordage of cotton, hemp-


Jean Lesage: Mr. Chairman, I think my hon. friend is mistaken. We are on the bill to amend the Excise Act and not on the Excise Tax Act. We are on Bill 226 which is merely concerned with the tax on cigarettes. The other will be taken up tomorrow.


Albany M. Robichaud: I am sorry, I had Bill 225 before me.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.
On the title.
Donald Methuen Fleming: May I just say that when I referred in my remarks on second reading to the habit that the government was causing certain people to form, I was not referring to the cigarette habit; I was referring to the smuggling habit.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Alphonse Fournier: the second reading of Bill No. 143, to amend the Farm Improvement Loan^ Act, 1944.


Mr. A. Earl Catherwood (Haldimand):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a word or two on this bill. When the Minister of Finance brought the measure to amend the Farm Improvement Loans Act, 1944, before the house considerable discussion took place at the resolution stage and the majority of those who spoke at that time were in complete accord with the terms of the resolution which raised the figure under the act to $200 million to the end of March, 1953, and to $300 million to the end of March, 1956.


Jean Lesage: Might I correct my hon. friend.
It did not increase the figure from $200 million to $300 million. It created a new period with a new amount of $300 million. The $200 million which was approved in 1951 will be exhausted in a few weeks. That is why we are pressing the passage of the bill at this time.


A. Earl Catherwood: It is $300 million to the end of March, 1956.


Jean Lesage: That is quite right. It is a new amount.


A. Earl Catherwood: There was complete
agreement with the proposal made at that time. We all recognize the increasing demands involved in farming operations, particularly arising because of the fact that agricultural operations are constantly becoming more mechanized, and increasing use of the facilities of the Farm Improvement Loans Act is most necessary. In outlining the results achieved since the measure was first introduced in 1944, the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance presented some very interesting figures. They indicated that up to December, 1952, almost one-third of a million loans had been negotiated, totalling $350 million. That is a very remarkable figure.
I think it is also amazing that the total losses guaranteed to the banks and paid by the government only amounted to something like $38,000 over the eight-year period, or an average of $4,800 per year. I think that indicates clearly that generally speaking farmers are very sincere and honest and will always make every effort to meet their obligations when at all possible. In view of the fact that there was only an insignificant loss averaging $4,800 per year over the period of eight years, and in view of what the Farm Improvement Loans Act means to the farmers, while we probably cannot do so in our consideration of the present measure I should like the parliamentary assistant to recommend to the minister and his staff that serious consideration be given to increasing the guarantee to the banks from 10 per cent to 20 per cent, with the understanding that the banks might lower the rate of interest to farmers from 5 per cent to 4 or 4J, per cent.
I know that the minister has studied the matter very carefully in his department and has given it serious thought, but we must remember that today many young people are drifting away from the farms and are not following that occupation. In fact I understand that the average age of farmers today is well up in the fifties. If we are to make full use of the purposes for which these loans were first made, then I think we should give earnest consideration to broadening the terms under which such loans are made. No one realizes more than I that this is a good act. That was pointed out at the resolution stage and we all agree, but I think we can make it a still better act.
Personally I would hesitate to recommend that any young man should commence farming operations today because of the fact that it takes a considerable amount of money to

finance such operations. We have to consider the fact that these loans have helped so many of our farmers considerably. I know personally that they are of great benefit to agriculture, and if we want to help our young people in particular who are starting to farm then I suggest that it would be most acceptable and beneficial if the rate of interest on such loans could be reduced to 4 per cent. The fact that only $4,800 a year has been paid out over a period of eight years indicates that farmers make every effort to repay their loans in full, and I know they will continue to do so. A considerable amount of money running into millions of dollars has been paid out under the agricultural prices support legislation, and I believe that under the terms of the Farm Improvement Loans Act we can give considerable help to our younger farmers. I trust the parliamentary assistant will recommend to his department that serious consideration be given to what I have suggested.


Jean Lesage: Mr. Speaker, may I say now-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Order. We are now
dealing with the second reading of a bill. I think it would be more regular if all other members who want to speak on the bill would do so now. Then the parliamentary assistant can reply.


Jean Lesage: I merely wanted to advise the house that, when we are in committee, I intend to ask a cabinet minister to propose an amendment so that the maximum loan may be increased from $3,000 to $4,000 in order to meet the request of many hon. members.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, the announcement the parliamentary assistant has just made deals with the point about which I was going to question him. At the resolution stage members of this group indicated their support of the measure. I am sure we all agree with the views expressed by the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Catherwood), but it was also our hope that when we got into committee on the bill the government would indicate that consideration had been given to the plea to raise the maximum amount of loan permissible under the act. We welcome the announcement that has just been made that there is going to be an increase in that amount, but I think there will be disappointment that consideration was not given to the higher figures suggested during the course of the debate at the resolution stage.
After all, the cost of setting up business as a farmer has certainly gone up a great deal more than would be indicated by an
Farm Improvement Loans Act increase in the maximum amount of loan from $3,000 to $4,000. The figures suggested during the course of the debate were $5,000 or $6,000. We hope that even yet consideration may be given to a higher figure than that which has been suggested by the parliamentary assistant.


Robert Fair: Mr. Speaker, I want to express my appreciation of the suggested amendment, but like the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) I should like to see the maximum amount increased to at least $5,000 because the cost of farming operations has certainly increased considerably since the bill was first passed. Perhaps it is not yet too late for the amount to be increased to $5,000 rather than $4,000.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
On section 1-Limitation of liability in respect of loans made during loan periods.
Jean Lesage: Mr. Chairman, when we were in committee on the resolution stage the hon. member for Nanaimo asked me if it were possible to give a breakdown of the tables that I had put on Hansard, showing the amounts and numbers of loans, as between Vancouver island and the rest of British Columbia. I have here the figures for each district of Vancouver island and I would seek agreement of the committee to have the table printed in Hansard.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Jean Lesage: The table is as follows:
Farm Improvement Loans Act
Loans since Inception on Vancouver Island to Dec. 31/52
	No.	Amount
Alberni 	... 8	$ 13,795.00Campbell River ..	.... 1	2,828.00Courtenay 	.... 20	23,778.00Duncan 	.... 37	35,926.16Ladysmith 	
1	570.00Nanaimo	.... 43	46,141.00Parksville 	.... 1	591.00Port Alberni 	.... 16	14,220.00Qualicum Beach ...	.... 2	2,150.00Sidney 	.... 12	8,066.66Victoria 	.... 57	61,711.06Totals 	.... 198	$209,776.88
The hon. member for St. John's West asked me, when we were at the resolution stage, if it were possible to give a breakdown of the eighty claims that had been paid by the federal government to the banks up to the end of December, 1952. I have here a table showing by provinces the number of loans,

Farm, Improvement Loans Act the amounts of the loans and the classification


Some hon. Members:: Agreed, of the loans according to their purposes. If it	.
is agreeable I will table the figures in Hansard	Lesage: The table is as follows:
at this point.
FARM IMPROVEMENT LOANS ACT Total Claims Paid as at December 31, 1952
-	Implements	Livestock	Construction	Improvements and Developments	Totals	No.	Amount	No.	Amount	No.	Amount	No.	Amount	No.	AmountS cts.	$ cts.	S cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.1	489 78	1	445 58	2	935 3616	5,098 51	1	1,014 99	2	1,102 70	19	7,216 2014	7,305 94	1	47 12	2	826 01	17	8,179 077	2,727 85	3	908 34	10	3,636 196	2,038 07	5	1,407 18	4	5,921 59	15	9,366 846	3,315 18	9	5,229 30	15	8,544 481	186 46	1	319 33	2	505 79
Totals		44	17,660 15	16	6,832 15	16	11,962 92	4	1,928 71	80	38,383 93
3.	Insert the following in part II as clause 3: "3. Paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of section
3 of the Farm Improvement Loans Act, chapter 110 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1952, is repealed and the following substituted therefor:
(d) the principal amount of the loan did not at the time of the making of the loan, together with the amount owing in respect of other guaranteed farm improvement loans previously made to the borrower and disclosed in his application, or of which the bank had knowledge, exceed the sum of four thousand dollars;' "
4.	Strike out lines 20, 21 and 22 on page 2 and substitute therefor the following:
"4. Sections 4 and 5 of the said act are repealed and the following substituted therefor:"
5.	Renumber clause 3 as clause 5.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Hon. members will notice that if this amendment carries the bill will have five clauses instead of three. Shall the amendment carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall clause 1 as amended carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall clause 2 as amended carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall new clause 3 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall new clause 4 carry?

As I said a few moments ago, when we were on second reading, after considering representations made from all sides of the house on the advisability of increasing the maximum loans from $3,000 to $4,000, the government has come to the conclusion that it would be advisable at this time to do so and see how this increase will work. I do not have to repeat all the reasons which brought the government to that conclusion, but of course the representations made by members of the house from all sides have been taken into consideration. I would, therefore, ask the hon. Minister of National Revenue if he would kindly move an amendment to the bill.


James Joseph McCann: I would move:
That Bill 143 be amended as follows:
1.	Insert the following as clause 1:
"1. Paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of section 3 of the Farm Improvement Loans Act, 1944, chapter 41 of the statutes of 1944-45, is repealed and the following substituted therefor:
'(d) the principal amount of the loan did not at the time of the making of the loan, together with the amount owing in respect of other guaranteed farm improvement loans previously made to the borrower and disclosed in his application, or of which the bank had knowledge, exceed the sum of four thousand dollars;'"
2.	Strike out lines 4, 5 and 6 on page 1 and substitute the following:
"2. Sections 4 and 5 of the said act are repealed and the following substituted therefor:"


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall new clause 5 carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD ACT


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 223, to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act, 1935.
He said: I would like to make a statement on the bill, if I may.
The main purpose of the bill that is before us today is to extend to August 1, 1957,-


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thought, Mr. Speaker, that you were calling the Statistics Act. In the order announced by the minister on Friday night the next bill concerned the Statistics Act.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Unfortunately the parliamentary assistant is in a committee and we propose to change the order for that reason.
The main purpose of the bill that is before us today is to extend until August 1, 1957, certain vital sections of the Canadian Wheat Board Act which would otherwise expire at the end of the current crop year. So that hon. members may consider the legislation in its proper perspective, I intend to outline briefly the record of the Canadian wheat board, to review events that have occurred since a similar extension of powers took place in 1950, and to set forth the position as I see it today.
The Canadian' Wheat Board Act was enacted in its original form in 1935. The 1935 legislation empowered the board to accept wheat, to pay a specified price, and to distribute the profits of the board, if any, in the form of participation payments. It was what we nowadays refer to as a voluntary board; a floor price was provided but the farmer could, and from time to time many of them did, sell on the open market rather than to the board.
In September, 1943, to meet wartime emergencies and under the authority of the War Measures Act, all commercial stocks of western wheat were taken over by the crown at the prevailing prices and the wheat board became the sole marketing agency through
Canadian Wheat Board Act which western producers could sell their wheat. This was the beginning of the present system of wheat board marketing. In effect, the board became a wheat pool handling all western wheat, making an initial payment at time of delivery and declaring interim and final payments as the wheat was sold out of the pool.
Until 1947, the wheat board operated under emergency legislation, first the War Measures Act and later the transitional powers act. By that time it had become quite clear that an overwhelming majority of western producers preferred this board method of selling their wheat. Agricultural organizations were unanimously in favour of continuation of the wheat board as the sole marketing agency for western wheat. Accordingly, in 1947, the Canadian Wheat Board Act was amended giving the board the necessary powers to continue marketing wheat as it had been doing since 1943.
So popular, in fact, was this system of marketing wheat that strong representations were made to the government by the Canadian Federation of Agriculture that the system should be applied to western oats and barley. The 1947 legislation enabled this to be done. But because a high proportion of oats and barley is marketed within provincial boundaries, and because we were anxious that the extension of the monopoly powers of the board to these grains should have the full support of provincial legislation and all three provincial legislatures, the government agreed to implement the relevant sections of the act only if the three prairie provinces passed complementary legislation. They did so, and the wheat board commenced the handling of oats and barley on the same basis as wheat on August 1, 1949. Again in 1950 the act came before parliament for another extension and again there could be no doubt whatever of the western farmers' overwhelming support for the prevailing system of handling their wheat, oats and barley. The government had no hesitation in recommending a further extension for three years to July 31, 1953.
A further proof of farm support came in 1951 when a plebiscite was held on the subject of the marketing of oats and barley. Thirty-four thousand farmers in Manitoba voted on this question:
Do you wish to continue to sell your oats and barley as at present-that is, through the board?
A total of 30,622 or 89 per cent voted "Yes".
To many hon. members these are familiar facts. I give them here so that all members may be aware of the continuous support that has been given by western farmers to the
3416	HOUSE OF
Canadian Wheat Board Act present system of grain marketing and why the government has no hesitation whatever in recommending a further extension for four years. It is truly remarkable that in spite of the attacks that have been made from time to time on grain marketing policy, both within this house and elsewhere, the present wheat board method of handling grain continues to be supported so strongly. To me this support indicates that the methods of handling grain which have been followed have met the requirements of the day, and that the members of the wheat board have discharged their duties with a high degree of competence.
' It is not my usual practice to refer to the services of particular public servants, but I should like on this occasion to express a word of appreciation of the great service rendered to the people of this country and in particular to the farmers of western Canada by the chief commissioner of the wheat board, Mr. George Mclvor. Mr. Mclvor has been connected with the board from its beginning, first as sales manager, then as board member and for the past 16 years as chief commissioner. Throughout that period he has discharged his duties with a high degree ol competence and good judgment.
I should also like to express my appreciation of the work of the other members of the board, Mr. W. C. McNamara and Mr. W. Riddel. Both these men came to the board after serving the producers of western Canada in an executive capacity with the Saskatchewan pool elevators, and they brought to the board an invaluable experience in the handling of grain.
The present method of marketing western wheat has been approved on two occasions by parliament: in 1947 and again in 1950. On both occasions it was possible to point to satisfactory operating results, results which returned good prices to the producer. Now, in 1953, over nine years after the wheat board became the sole marketing agency for western wheat, it is appropriate to look back over the record. The striking fact about that record is the high and stable level of returns to producers. In 1943-44 the producer received a total return for No. 1 northern wheat, basis in store Fort William-Port Arthur, of $1.37 per bushel; in 1944-45, $1,434; in the five-year pool period 1945-46 to 1949-50, $1.83; in 1950-51, $1,854; and in 1951-52, $1,834.
In other words from August 1, 1945, to July 31, 1952, a period of seven full crop years, the price realized by the board and paid to the producer was between $1.83 and $1,854 for No. 1 northern, basis in store at the lakehead. When one is looking for reasons why the board method of handling

Canadian Wheat Board Act possible to point to satisfactory operating results. Deliveries from each of the three crops of oats and barley-the 1949, 1950 and 1951 crops-were virtually all sold within the crop year. In November, 1952, when the transfer was made to the present crop accounts, there were no oats or barley to transfer except those which were covered by futures contracts. Prices realized will be found in the wheat board reports. Let me, however, put on the record now, total returns to producers for the leading grades in each of the three years, again basis Fort William-Port Arthur:
1949	1950	1951Oats	$	$	$2 CW 	*SiVio	.831No. 1 feed 	. .79J	co	.775Barley No. 3 CW 6 row	.. 1.50|	1.33s	1.29|No. 1 feed 	.. 1.31J	1.23	1.21We are now in the	crop year	1952-53.	As
hon. members are aware, the 1952 crop was the largest ever harvested on the prairies of Canada-664 million bushels of wheat; 346 million bushels of oats, and 281 million bushels of barley. It was a high grade crop. Almost 80 per cent of the wheat will grade No. 3 northern or better. Although the protein content, as might be expected, is a little below average, we are once again able to offer our customers the high grades and heavy weights per bushel which, over the years, they have come to associate with Canadian wheat.
Our problem this crop year is rather different from the problems experienced in the past two years. We have no worries about excess moisture, and low grades do not form an undue proportion of our stocks. Our main problem is to move the grain forward from the farms into position for export. Sales have been excellent, surpassing any previous crop year at this date, and with a little luck I think we shall establish new records for export clearances of grain from Canada, even exceeding the record established in 1951-52 when 509 million bushels were moved out of this country.
I have already mentioned the contribution made to the movement of earlier crops by the transport controller. During the present crop year the value of Mr. Milner's work in co-ordinating the lake and rail facilities of this country has been immeasurable. In spite of the steel strike and its aftermath, grain clearances down the lakes in Canadian vessels during the 1952 season established new records. Deliveries by producers since August 1, 1952, have been greater than in any postwar year.

Although our sales are heavy and our export clearances of record proportions, there will be a big carryover of grain at the end of the current crop season; but this does not necessarily mean that Canada is beginning to accumulate burdensome surpluses. We shall have a big carryover simply because for three years we have harvested extraordinarily large crops and in 1952 raised a crop almost twice normal size. It is a good thing for the world that we did raise big crops, for the world has been especially dependent on North America for essential food supplies. And, if nature is less bountiful in the future, we may be thankful that we have something left over at the present time.
When I was preparing for this debate I came across something I said on April 20, 1950, during the debate on the 1950 amendments to the wheat board act. This is what I said, as reported at page 1734 of Hansard:
One can be either an optimist or a pessimist about the ability of Canada to dispose of her wheat at reasonable prices in the trading world of today. I prefer to be an optimist. In fact, if I were not an optimist at this stage, I would be a poor selection for the minister in charge of our wheat selling organization. I believe that we can sell our surplus wheat at prices that will return a profit to our farmers in the future as we have in the past. The reputation of Canadian wheat is unquestioned in world markets. Under the trading conditions of today, price and quality are not always the determining factor to the extent that they were in prewar days, but price and quality still count for much. Canada has established a reputation in world wheat markets for fair dealing, which will stand us in good stead. The deficit countries of the world will continue to require wheat, and I believe that Canadian wheat will continue to find a market in those countries. The Canadian wheat board has demonstrated its ability to handle Canada's wheat marketing problems efficiently, and I have every confidence that this ability will be further demonstrated in the years to come.
That is the end of the quotation. Perhaps if I had known what was going to happen to our crops in 1950 and 1951 I might not have put myself so clearly on the record as an optimist. In the event, however, optimism was fully justified.
I am still an optimist. I continue to believe that Canada will be able to find markets for her grain at satisfactory prices. I do not mean that the world will beat a path to our door clamouring for our wheat, or that we shall always get the prices we would like to get. What I do believe is that importing countries will require wheat in substantial and growing quantities over the years to come, and that Canada is in a good position to get a share of the market sufficient to dispose of her exportable surpluses at reasonably satisfactory prices.

Hon. members are aware that negotiations are under way for a renewal of the international wheat agreement. You will not expect me to comment at this time on the progress of the negotiations. We hope for a favourable outcome, but we shall not be easily satisfied. It is the government's view that an international wheat agreement can be of benefit to both exporting and importing countries, but if mutually satisfactory terms cannot be agreed upon we can, as we have done in the past, sell our wheat successfully without an agreement. If and when an agreement is signed in Washington, legislation will be presented to parliament to ratify the agreement. The amendments in the present bill are not contingent upon renewal of the international wheat agreement. I have heard suggestions that the continuation of the wheat board in its present form is contingent upon an agreement, but this is not so. The two matters are quite unrelated.
As I said ait the outset, the main purpose of the bill before us is to extend until July 31, 1957, those sections of the act which give the board powers to continue as the sole marketing agency for western wheat, oats and barley. These powers might have been extended indefinitely, but it is the government's view that they ought to come before parliament for review and extension every few years. There are also a few amendments of a more technical nature, including one to close out old and inactive crop accounts.
The government has received a number of suggestions regarding use of these unclaimed funds for which no owner can be discovered. As none of the suggestions seem to meet with general approval, it has been decided that funds that have been unclaimed for six years or more will be transferred to a separate wheat board account to be used for such purposes as the governor in council, upon the recommendation of the wheat board, may deem to be for the benefit of producers.
This bill is recommended to the house as the continuation of legislation that has enabled western grain to be marketed successfully, and that carries the support of an overwhelming majority of western grain producers.


Mr. D. S. Harkness (Calgary East):: Mr. Speaker, this discussion on this bill at the present time, on the motion for second reading, has caught me a little off base, with the result that I do not have with me my notes and statistics on the subject. As the minister has said, the main purpose of the bill is to continue the present system-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I point out that since the minister has spoken he has concluded the debate.
Canadian Wheat Board Act


Major James William Coldwell: No; he just moved second reading.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Perhaps I was slow in rising. It was my intention only to open debate when I made my statement.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Then the hon. member may proceed.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As the minister has said, the main purpose of the bill is to continue the present system of marketing wheat for another three years. As he has further stated, the great majority of wheat producers in western Canada appear to be in favour of this system of marketing their grain. Under those circumstances I do not think any useful purpose can be served by prolonging unduly the debate concerning this particular method of marketing.
The minister gave a laudatory account of the way in which the wheat board has handled the marketing of grain in the last two or three years, an account in which I think a considerable number of people would not entirely concur. However, on this occasion I do not want to revive arguments we have heard in the house on several occasions in the past concerning the way in which our grain has been handled, the prices secured for it and the losses incurred, estimated at many hundreds of millions of dollars. A large number of people believe that this has resulted from the way the grain was handled.


Mr. Smith (Moose Mountain):: Do you
believe that?


Douglas Scott Harkness: I certainly believe very large losses were experienced.


John James Smith: Why are you in favour of the bill, then?


Douglas Scott Harkness: As I say, the great majority of farmers in western Canada are in favour of this method of marketing grain. This is a democratic country; and if that is what the majority of producers of wheat want, by way of marketing that wheat, then certainly I am one who is prepared to give it to them.
I think wheat producers would be much better satisfied with the board if its composition were somewhat different. The legislation makes provision for from three to five commissioners. Up to this moment only three have been appointed, and it is the hope of many farm organizations that the other two appointees might be representatives of the wheat producers themselves, so that producer representation on the board might dictate policy to an extent greater than has been the case in the past. I think producer representation to that extent would strengthen the board, and that this suggestion should be followed.
3420	HOUSE OF
Canadian Wheat Board Act Alternatively the wheat producers have asked tor an advisory board with powers considerably increased over those held by the present so-called advisory board, and that such a body might consist of representatives of the wheat producers. It is the view of the wheat producers that this advisory board should have much greater influence than have any of the producer representatives at the present time with respect to policy decisions.
These are suggested reforms of the wheat board which have been sought for a considerable period of time, and should now be put into effect.
In his speech the minister has given a general account of the amount of wheat marketed and the prices secured for it in the last two or three years. I am sure all hon. members were pleased to hear that as much had been marketed as he indicated, and that prices have held up as well as would appear to have been the case. I am sure, too, that all who are concerned with wheat production will hope that the minister's optimism in respect of the marketing of the present crop is justified. I am not making any predictions in the matter; therefore I am not putting myself in the position of the gentleman whom the minister to some extent castigated during the course of his remarks.
Then I am not particularly clear as to the effect of the section in the bill dealing with unclaimed balances. I have no doubt, however, that we will have a full explanation of how exactly it will work and what disposition will be made of these balances. The bill is somewhat vague in that it says only that these balances shall be disposed of in the interests of the producers as the governor in council may decide. I think we should have some more information on that; but, as I say, perhaps the place to get it is when we are in committee on this bill.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I think all of us from the prairie provinces are glad to know that embedded in our statutes today is the Canadian Wheat Board Act, which has been on the statute books since 1935 and is now to be extended to 1957. Those of us who can look back over the last 30 years on the prairies can remember the long, arduous fight that was put up by the farmers of the prairie provinces to obtain this board, and the controversies that arose in 1935. I remember those controversies very well because I was a new member of the house and took some part in the discussions of those days.
However, I hope that as far as we in western Canada are concerned, those controversies are ended. We have seen this board [Mr. Harkness.l

in operation and we know the benefits that have been conferred upon the people who produce grain. We know that the farmers in the wheat growing industry have achieved something in the nature of stability.
During the course of his remarks the minister gave the details of the quantities of wheat that had been sold through the board over the last year or so. That was indeed a most satisfactory statement. As he said, we shall probably have a large carryover this year which undoubtedly the world needs if ways and means can be found of paying for the wheat and giving our farmers a reasonable return for their labours when the grain is marketed. No one can foretell what the future holds, but it is obvious that the world will need quantities of wheat for a long time to come.
I believe we have been fortunate over the last period of time because there were short crops in Australia and in Argentina, and also rice was not available from Burma and Indochina for India and Japan. That gave us additional markets for our wheat and helped considerably. I hope those countries have acquired a taste for wheat so that we may have markets even though other countries increase their cereal production, and even though our cereal production is maintained or increased, as we all hope it will be.
We may talk about the value of our minerals and our forest products, which I noted the other day have exceeded the value of our agricultural production, at least in the export market; nonetheless grain is still one of the major factors in our economy and one of the foundations of our economic stability. In this country we all hope the farmers will be able through good weather and through the methods they are now using in the production of grain to continue at least this high production, and that the world will find ways and means of taking that production in a manner which will be satisfactory to those who produce the crops.
The minister was not in a position today to say anything about the prospects of renewing the international wheat agreement. I hope an agreement will be reached. I hope the price under that agreement will be satisfactory. As I have said already, we do not know what the next few years will bring. We may have a higher production and other countries like Australia and Argentina may have a higher production. Northern Africa under the French regime may be exporting wheat again, or new lands may be opened up for cereal production. We cannot get any

information regarding the outlook, but we may see wheat available for export from the Soviet union.
We remember how they exported large quantities of wheat and took low prices in the early 1930's. We remember what that did to our market for Canadian wheat. It is often said that the depression in the prairie provinces was due to crop failures. To a large degree it was; but it was also due to the exceedingly low prices obtained for wheat when it was sold on the speculative market without any real attempt at maintaining real stability. In my own constituency farmers hauled their wheat to the market at 19 and 20 cents per bushel at the country elevator. That was ruinous. The wheat board and international agreements have permitted Canada and other producing countries to attempt to give some stability to the market along with a more reasonable return to the producers.
Therefore I hope the international wheat agreement will be renewed. I hope our government will do everything possible to get such an agreement. I hope the consuming nations will realize that our farmers' costs of production have increased drastically over the past five years, and that they will be willing to pay a price which will give our farmers a reasonable return for their labour. Various prices have been named to me by some of my constituents ranging from $2.05 up to $2.35 per bushel. They are most anxious, however, that a reasonable market be assured to them once again through a satisfactory international wheat agreement.
I hope ways and means will be found of achieving a satisfactory agreement and, as far as our country is concerned, of permitting the nations that will buy our wheat to obtain the dollars to pay for that wheat from this country. In other words I would like to see a still further downward revision of our customs duties and tariffs. These tariffs have bedevilled trade as far as our farmers are concerned over a period of years. These are barriers against our own income. They are not just barriers against manufactured goods coming in to compete; they are barriers against the returns which must pay for the things we can produce and need to export.
So I am happy this afternoon to have the opportunity of supporting this bill, and to see that it is the intention to maintain the act until August 1, 1957. When the time approaches for its renewal I feel sure that our farmers will want to see the wheat board act renewed again.
The hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) said a few moments ago that undoubtedly the minister would give us some
(58108-217
Canadian Wheat Board Act information with regard to these unclaimed balances when we are in committee on the bill. I should like to say at this stage that as I read this section of the act it gives our farmers some assurance that before any disposition is made of the accumulated surpluses a real attempt will be made to adjust the fund so that those who are entitled under it to payments on certificates will get all that can possibly be paid to them. Then, when that is over, any undistributed balance should be used for the benefit, as it is put here, of producers.
How can these balances be used? Various methods occur to those of us who have thought about this matter in the past. The money might be distributed for the improvement of cereal crops, for assistance in the production of new and better types of wheat. It might be used for agricultural education, particularly in those branches of agriculture that have to do with cereals. In any event, it should be used for the benefit of producers.
That brings me to support a view already expressed by the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Harkness) with respect to the wheat board. Over the years our farmers have asked for more adequate producer representation on the wheat board, and we have discussed that matter back and forth in the house. It is perfectly true that persons who understand the actual mechanics of the marketing of wheat must be on the board, and in the person of Mr. Mclvor I think we have a man who has been a very good chairman of the board in the past. But our grain producers want more adequate producer representation. It might be wise to consider enlarging the board to seven members, but in any event of the five members now on the board I think two or even three should be directly interested at all times in the production of wheat.
As far as an advisory committee is concerned, that is another way of giving the producers representation; but our farmers would be much more satisfied with the operations of the board and the negotiation of agreements by it if they felt that they were more adequately represented than they have been in the past.
The wheat board act was placed on the statute books after many years of effort on the part of western farmers and those of us who supported them. I remember the period before 1921 when we had a wheat board. I remember the interim period after 1921 when we were without one. I remember the years between 1930 and 1935. I remember the controversy that followed the passage of this act in 1935; but one thing that those of us who come from the prairie provinces and

Canadian Wheat Board Act represent agricultural constituencies can say is that today there is unanimity among prairie representatives in the House of Commons and substantial unanimity on the part of the farmers themselves.
Surely no one wants to go back again to the old open market method, with its dealings in futures and gambling on the grain exchange. In those days farmers hauled in their wheat in the fall, received low prices, and the speculator benefited the following spring. No one wants to return to that situation. The wheat board act has been something of a charter for the western wheat grower, and I am very happy this afternoon to be able to support the bill for its continuance until 1957.


Robert Fair: Mr. Speaker, as a representative of western agriculturists I am very glad to see this bill introduced this afternoon. I am not speaking only for myself, because all in this group will give the bill their full support. I can look back a little over 30 years to the time when the first wheat board legislation was introduced, in 1919. I must say that we regretted very much when that legislation was done away with a few years later. As the result of it being done away with, the farmers then got busy and organized the wheat pools. The province of Alberta did the job first, and Saskatchewan and Manitoba followed. I am glad to say that the pools are still doing a good job.
In my opinion the Canadian wheat board, which has been talked about and opposed for many years in certain parts of Manitoba, still continues to do an excellent job. It is doing a good job of selling and a good job of satisfying agriculture as a whole in the western provinces. The handling of the crops of the past two or three years has been referred to by the minister. I can remember quite well that on September 25, 1950, and on the same date in 1951, the weather broke and at that time very little of the crop had been threshed. That brought about particularly tough conditions, and we had a lot of out of condition grain. I am glad to say that the vast majority of the farmers are very well satisfied with the prices that have been obtained for them by the wheat board.
As the minister has pointed out, the 1952 crop is the largest that western Canada has ever grown, and to a very great extent that accounts for the degree of prosperity existing in agriculture at the present time. I am sure, though, that we would have been much better off if certain safeguards had been provided when framing the international wheat agreement. We have pointed out our
[Mr. Coldwell.l

reasons for suggesting that in the past, and I hope some safeguards will be placed in the agreement that is now under discussion. I also hope that in the near future the minister will be able to give us the definite information that an agreement has been concluded. Whether or not an agreement is successfully concluded, I believe we need the wheat board to market our grain. It has done an excellent job in the past; and if an international wheat agreement should not be successfully completed then the board- will be able to carry on and I am sure it will do a good job.
I should like to see this legislation made permanent rather than go out of existence after July 31, 1957. I agree with the minister that it is a good idea to have matters reviewed now and again, but even though the legislation were made permanent such a review could undoubtedly take place. I hope that neither the present minister, as long as he holds his office, nor his successor, whoever he may be, will change their minds about the benefits that accrue to western farmers and Canada as a whole as the result of the operations of the Canadian wheat board. Over the years that the present chairman, Mr. Mclvor, has held his position, I believe he has done a very satisfactory job indeed. That is true not only in his handling of his regular work, but when many of us have had complaints about shortages of box cars and other matters Mr. Mclvor has always been right on the job and has taken immediate and effective action.
I want to pay my compliments to the chief commissioner on this occasion. I believe the closing out of certain accounts will be satisfactory. I am glad to learn that efforts will be made to find the owners of the moneys in those accounts. It is true that many farmers move around quite a bit and do not realize that they have credits in the wheat board account. It is good to see that the moneys will be retained for a certain number of years before being disposed of in some other manner. I also hope that the government will see to it that the moneys are properly spent in the interests of agriculture when these accounts are finally disposed of.
Dealing with our internal wheat policy, I am not yet in agreement with the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe). I have told him that on several occasions. I cannot see yet any sound reasoning why we subsidize our Canadian people at the expense of the prairie wheat growers.


Major James William Coldwell: Hear, hear.


Robert Fair: On more than one occasion the minister has stated that he was not going to

have the Canadian taxpayers subsidize the wheat growers of Canada. To get the matter straight, instead of that I would suggest that the Canadian wheat growers, the wheat growers of the prairie provinces, are subsidizing not only the people of Canada but also to a certain extent those of other countries. I say that because certain precautions have not been taken to safeguard the interests of the wheat growers. I have pointed out on different occasions that the cost of production has increased very materially since the contract was made.
At the time the agreement was being entered into we pointed out that these conditions could occur. I believe it was only a week ago today that I pointed out that the index of farm machinery prices has increased by 54 points during the past five years and that freight rates, I believe, have increased by some 87 per cent during the past few years. There is no safeguard there at all; and do not forget that the Canadian farmers, the wheat growers on the prairies, bear the brunt of every one of those freight rate increases.
I have not prepared a speech on this matter and I will not say any more at the present time. We shall perhaps have something to say on the different sections as they are being discussed. I do want to say that we are glad to see this legislation introduced, and we shall give it our full support.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
On section 1-Constitution of board.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would tell us if any consideration has been given recently to filling the five commissioner appointments, as they will now be called, particularly with producer representatives.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, I would gladly fill the other two vacancies if I could find men as competent as the three men who are on the board at the present time. My hon. friend talks about producer representatives, but I might explain that the purpose of this board is to sell wheat, not to grow it. I suppose we could specialize on the growing end by appointing a producer but I do not see that it would strengthen the selling end very much.
The present members of the board are the same men whom the wheat pools themselves have called upon in the past to sell their wheat. They are all from the sales departments of the wheat pools, the men whom the farmers hire. I think they are the type of 68108-2171
Canadian Wheat Board Act men necessary to handle this enormous business of selling wheat, oats and barley from the prairie provinces.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As the minister well knows, the idea of having representatives of the producers on the board is not for the purpose of producing grain. It is for the purpose of allowing the producers to have a greater hand in determining matters of policy for the selling of grain. The grain belongs in toto to the producers, and theirs are the interests to be served. It would seem reasonable that they should have some representation on the board to help determine policies to be followed in matters of entering into agreements and so forth, as far as the selling end is concerned. I am sure there would not be undue difficulty in getting two men from the ranks of the producers who could serve an extremely useful purpose, men who would have knowledge for selling purposes as well as knowledge of the producers' problems.


Major James William Coldwell: I do not think this means that farmers have had any lack of confidence in the men who have been selling our wheat, at all, but I think it is quite important to* have the closest possible co-operation from the producers. If the producers feel that they are more or less directly represented by two producers who understand their problems, they will feel more satisfied with what the board does. Those men, moreover, would be able to report back to other producers of wheat. I think the idea is to keep the closest possible liaison between the board and the producers.
What I, at least, have to say is not implying any criticism of the present board; but in the interests of close co-operation with the producers the board, I think, might include at least two producers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I might explain that the selling of wheat is itself a highly technical matter. It takes years of training to know really what the mechanics are. I do not think my hon. friend would suggest that we should have a board of five, three with technical knowledge and two without technical knowledge. The whole board is not always in one location. We have never appointed to the board a man who has not had years of technical training in the actual selling of the grain, and I would hesitate to change that pattern.
As far as keeping in touch with producers is concerned, the board attends meetings of the producers every year-their annual meetings, the annual meetings of the pools and farmers' unions. The board is always prepared to answer invitations to farmers' gatherings and, in fact, welcomes the opportunity to discuss the business of the board

Canadian Wheat Board Act with producers. In addition there is the advisory board which meets at frequent intervals, and that board is made up at least in part of producers, the other part being millers and retailers. The meetings provide a useful contact with those with whom the board does business.
I cannot endorse the idea that it would be wise to put men on the board who know all about producing wheat but who have no technical knowledge of selling.


Major James William Coldwell: Well, the pools have been very successful.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They hire this kind of man.


Major James William Coldwell: Yes; but if you look at the people who operate them you will find they are very largely producers.


Mr. Bryce:: You say that the advisory committee meets every month. How many members are there and can you let us have their names for the record?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The composition of the board is specified by parliament in the Canadian Wheat Board Act. It is a board to consist of not more than eleven members, but I do not remember who they are. It is a board that is very useful.


William Scottie Bryce: There are producers on that board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes; largely producers.


William Scottie Bryce: Could you put on the record who they are?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would be glad to get the information, but I do not have it here.


Mr. Hansell:: Mr. Chairman, to put my thinking straight on this matter, is it not so that since the closing of the grain exchange there has been no open market and that, in reality, the wheat board does not sell wheat? It is the government that strikes trade agreements with other countries, the agreements such as the British wheat agreement or the world wheat agreement; and the wheat board, therefore, in reality becomes the technical adviser to the government. Is that not what is really happening today?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, there are agreements, but the selling of wheat under an agreement is a technical operation-day by day pricing, charging and forwarding. The over-all agreement is made by the government but the spacing of the wheat, the forwarding of the wheat, and the sales are made by the wheat board. In other words, we probably could not sell any more wheat in May if we wanted to because all the forwarding capacity and all the dock space is fully booked. All these


matters have to be considered. They are technical matters.


Mr. Maclnnis:: The international wheat
agreement is an agreement on price, is it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; it is an agreement on price.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Can the minister tell us what the purpose is of changing the wording from "member" of the board to "commissioner"? What advantage is there in that change?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no particular advantage except that it is difficult to write to a man and call him "Dear member of the board". The title of "commissioner" is a little bit more distinctive, that is all. There is nothing more in it than that.
I can now give the names of the members of the advisory committee. I find this list in the annual report of the wheat board already tabled. The members of the advisory committee during the crop year 1951-52 were: L. Hutchinson, chairman, Calgary, Alberta;
D.	I. Walker, Toronto, Ontario; J. C. A. Nijdam, Winnipeg, Manitoba; F. H. Clenden-ning, Vancouver, British Columbia; J. Theo Roy, Montreal, Quebec; J. H. Wesson, Regina, Saskatchewan; R. C. Brown, Winnipeg, Manitoba; F. Pettypiece, Auld, Ontario; J. A. McCowan, Summerberry, Saskatchewan; P. Farnalls, Halkirk, Alberta; C. E. Hayles, Winnipeg, Manitoba. Of those-


Mr. Charlton:: Three are producers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Six out of the eleven are producers.


John Alpheus Charlton: Did the minister say that six out of the nine were producers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will count them again.


John Alpheus Charlton: The minister had better do that.


Mr. Sinnott:: Can the minister give any specific reason why rye cannot be brought under the same board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just because the government has not made provision for including rye in the pool. Rye is a crop that is not used in Canada. It is sold outside of Canada. It is not a crop that the government is particularly anxious to encourage. It is a crop that fluctuates widely in price. My feeling is that if anyone wants to grow rye, he had better sell it himself.


William Scottie Bryce: The minister does not need to tell the farmers that; they know it.


John Alpheus Charlton: Can the minister say whether he has figured out how many growers there are on the advisory committee? Can he also

tell us what is the salary of the commissioners and what that of the two additional commissioners will probably be?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Six out of the eleven are
producers. The salaries of the commissioners are paid by the producers of western Canada, and I do not think I should disclose the salaries to the committee. They are not paid by the federal treasury.


Robert Fair: Is it correct to say that all expenses of the board are paid out of the producers' money that is returned for their wheat?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Robert Fair: I think that fact should be made plain, because some people feel that some of the expenses are coming out of the dominion treasury, and that is not correct.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. All expenditures of the board, including salaries of the commissioners and of all its staff, are paid by the producers.


Robert Fair: Will the minister say whether any consideration has been given to making the Canadian Wheat Board Act permanent rather than having the three-year or four-year extensions?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. Consideration has been given to that possibility but it was felt that with an act of this kind, as conditions vary from year to year, it was just as well to let every parliament make up its mind as to what it should do about wheat marketing. Personally I would have no objection, but in considering the matter the government thought a four-year extension was a wiser procedure than to make the act permanent.


Robert Fair: I do not think there will be any disagreement whatever among the provinces concerned because they include only Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and the Peace river block in British Columbia. I think they are all fairly well decided about what system they want.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am sure that is true, Mr. Chairman; but I see no objection to allowing them to say so every three or four years.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
On section 5-Transfer of undistributed balances.
Douglas Scott Harkness: Can the minister give us any more information with regard to how the unclaimed balances are going to be dealt with? I should like to know particularly what steps are being taken at the present time to ensure that holders of certificates which are long overdue are found. In other
Canadian Wheat Board Act words, are these unclaimed balances advertised as are dead bank balances? What other steps are taken in order to get that money into the hands of the people to whom it rightfully belongs?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Every effort has been made to locate the persons to whom this money is due. Advertisements have been used. Letters have been sent. The help of the wheat pool organizations has been requisitioned to try to trace them down. The balances that it is proposed to set aside at the moment are those from the 1940 crop wheat account, the 1941 crop, the 1942 crop and the 1943 crop. The total of these four accounts is $247,289.78; and from other operations, the 1942 crop oats and barley equalization fund, $58,905.57; the 1943 crop oats equalization fund, $98,717.59 and the 1944 crop barley equalization fund, $52,431 63. The balance from the wheat amounts to $247,289.78 and from the other operations, $211,054.59, making a total of $458,344.37.


Major James William Coldwell: Has the minister any idea how many certificates are involved?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. I understand the fund in hand is made up of cheques issued and uncashed and certain certificates that the board was never able to call in. It was on account of the difficulty in calling in certificates that that system was abolished. Today cheques are sent to producers without calling in certificates. These funds have been carried on the books of accounts, as I say, for more than six years. There are other funds accumulating each year. Today it is largely as a result of uncashed cheques. There are ample funds accumulating from following crop year accounts. Of course we honour these cheques or claims whenever they are made.
There has been some discussion about the use of these funds. It has been suggested that they be put into a current pool. There are objections to that procedure because the members of the current pool have no particular claim on the funds. One hon. member has on the order paper a resolution proposing that a fund be set up for young men and young women in the prairie provinces who are sons and daughters of wheat growers, which would provide for scholarships in prairie universities. There was some objection to that suggestion. Since no two representations seemed to agree, it has been decided to set the funds aside in a special account, and at such time as agreement can be reached on using those funds for the benefit of the prairie producers, that method will be followed.
3428	HOUSE OF
Canadian Wheat Board Act


William Scottie Bryce: I should like to pursue that matter just a little bit further. A few minutes ago the minister said the members of the wheat board were hired because they knew their business, which is that of selling wheat. When it comes to dividing up the funds, I think the farmers should be given the same consideration; because the farmers put those funds there in the first place through neglect in collecting them. I think it is done by the governor in council on the recommendation of the board. The reference there is to the wheat board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


William Scottie Bryce: May I put it this way. I should like the minister to give this further consideration so that the producers, the people who put the money there in the first place, would have something to say as to how it should be spent. The hon. member who puts a resolution on the order paper year after year would have it go for the benefit of farmers' sons. That money should be paid to train men in agriculture, to make them veterinary surgeons or something like that, that would contribute something to the livestock industry. A little further consideration should be given to the matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say that I thought it was an excellent suggestion myself, but on questioning hon. members from the wheat-growing provinces I found that there were as many ideas as to how the fund should be used as there were members. I was told that the suggestion, however good it was, would not carry a majority of the members of the house. I found that each growers organization had a different idea, and none of them approved of the scholarship idea. They each had suggestions that were varying.
The wheat board is a producers' board, and the purpose of having recommendations of the wheat board and the approval of the governor in council is to make sure that there is a general agreement among the producers as to how this money should be used.


William Scottie Bryce: I agree with the minister on that point, that the producers should decide and not parliament.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: I have a suggestion to make. Since the minister has said it is very difficult to find men who have the ability to sell Canada's wheat crop, I would suggest that a portion of this money be set aside to train men for that purpose.


Mr. Ferrie:: With regard to these undistributed balances, the main thing I see is that under my suggestion the capital stays intact. You use only the interest. I cannot


see why anyone should have anything to say with respect to this money. It does not belong to anybody. If it did, then the right and proper thing would be to have it go to the treasury. We want to prevent it from going there. Another government might say that it does not belong to anybody; it belongs to the government, and nobody can claim it. My suggestion is that this money be invested in government bonds and that the interest be used for the benefit of the boys and girls of western Canada, to help them get an education.
This money is not really under the control of the government. The government has one thing to do with it, really, namely to put it in the treasury. We do not agree with that. As long as this board exists there will be money of that description. If that fund is there it can be added to and the interest could be used, and we would not need to interfere with any other pool money.


Douglas Scott Harkness: If I understood the minister correctly, this provision having to do with six years' unclaimed balances that go into this fund will not in any way prejudice the owner of a certificate which is more than six years old.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Douglas Scott Harkness: He will still be paid for it in spite of the six-year provision?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: the second reading of Bill No. 148, to amend the Statistics Act.


William Joseph Browne: Explain.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, this bill does not involve any change in the nature of the work being done by the bureau of statistics; it does not involve any matter of principle in relation to that work. It rather has to do with a number of small changes in the authority of the bureau in respect to certain of the techniques of operation.

It is of a nature that the amending clauses contained in the bill are not directly related one to the other. For that reason it is probably something that could best be discussed in committee, but I should say a word, perhaps, about each of the clauses in the bill.
The first part of clause 1 merely deals with an omission in the act when it was passed in 1948, in that the definition dealing with transportation statistics omitted the term "persons", so the bureau could collect statistics of transportation as to goods but not as to persons. Then there is a change in the language used in the definition of public utility.
Section 3 authorizes the minister to utilize the services of employees of other departments, and in addition the effect of it is to make them subject to the penalty for breach of the secrecy provisions of the act. The necessity for that section comes about in connection with the use of census records under the old age security legislation. It merely authorizes the minister to utilize the services of employees of another department. The effect of that is, of course, as will be seen, to prevent a duplication of work by an employee of the Department of National Health and Welfare and the bureau of statistics.
The next clause has to do with the returns made by hospitals, mental institutions and the like. It permits a lesser degree of secrecy with respect to parts of these returns and the publication of them. The publication of information given by hospitals and other similar non-commercial institutions is of such a nature that it must be related to a particular institution to be valuable. This change meets with the wishes of the institutions and the health and similar authorities supplying and using this information.
Paragraph (c) of that clause permits the publication of the names and locations of firms and their products. Formerly that exception was not made, and there was a question about the right to publish certain trade information. Hon. members will notice that the language used in this paragraph is very narrow; publication is confined to the names and locations of the individual firms and the types of products processed.
The next clause concerns the census of population and agriculture. Under the present section the provisions are absolutely rigid, so that it is necessary for the bureau to include in the census questionnaires information it may already have. The modified language in section 4 permits more flexibility, and should result in the cutting down of questions on census forms.
Statistics Act
Then section 5 in the bill has to do with statistics on inland waterways. Part of those statistics is already authorized, but there is no comprehensive statistical information authorized in respect of inland waterways, and the point is clarified in section 5 of the bill.
Section 6 merely provides that statistics relating to criminal offences will be collected at periods more agreeable to the proper working of the courts and the provincial authorities giving the statistics, rather than on the rigid basis defined in the older legislation.
Sections 7 and 8 have the same effect. They simply change the rigid period for the giving of information concerning criminal statistics, as set out in the old legislation, and make the system more flexible. I understand this meets with the approval of those who will give the information.
There is not much more that could be said usefully on this motion for second reading. It seems to me that the points might more properly be dealt with when we are in the committee stage.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, the changes contemplated in this revision of the Statistics Act do not seem to be extensive. I trust they will not produce the effect of piling up more useless statistics, at considerable expense to the people of Canada who have to supply them.


George James McIlraith: These amendments are
designed to cut down rather to increase.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I hope that will be the effect. I have heard a number of complaints from businessmen concerning returns they have to make to the statistics branch. The information I receive in many cases is that the material they have to supply is completely useless.
I have been approached on this matter on numerous occasions, and have a considerable pile of correspondence from what I believe to be the largest distributor of motor car products in western Canada. This organization has had to employ considerable staff, at great expense, to engage in the process of filing these numerous returns. It handles items of equipment and the like. The information I have indicates that this distributor, and one other concern in eastern Canada, are the only people doing this particular kind of business. He believes the statistics he has to turn in are quite valueless; nevertheless he has to keep turning them in year after

Statistics Act
year. If he does not he is subject to the penalties, stated as follows in the act:
Every person who, without lawful excuse, . . .
(b) refuses or neglects to furnish any information or to fill up to the best of his knowledge and belief any schedule or form-
-shall be liable, upon summary conviction, to a penalty not exceeding $100 and not less than $20, or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months and not less than thirty days, or to both fine and imprisonment.
It seems to me there should be a bit of housecleaning, so far as the statistics branch is concerned, particularly in the matter of information which is not going to be of any particular value. There seems to have been a great tendency to pile up statistics. It is the sort of thing that snowballs. I am sure there is a great deal of validity in the complaints I have received concerning the statistical information which businessmen must file. I believe the work of the statistics branch and of private business could be speeded up by cutting down much of the useless information now required. I would hope that some effort might be made in that direction.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Other public servants.
William Joseph Browne: Is this not a very wide power to give a minister, when he is given control over officials in all departments in the manner set out here?


George James McIlraith: It does not give the minister control .over them, but only the authority to utilize their services. It is not authority to take control of them from other departments. It is authority to use services made available from other departments.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
On section 9.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Perhaps I might point out at this time that, as hon. members will have noticed, in each bill, in order to amend the revised statutes there have been duplicates of some of the sections carried in the first part of the bill. Therefore in this bill, as in others, and as in bills which will follow, sections 9 to 16, comprising part II of the bill, are merely duplicates of part I.
I point this out because I take it for granted that hon. members, having carried the original sections, will wish to carry the duplicate sections. Therefore I shall call

the last sections quickly, and when I do so I hope hon. members will keep this fact in mind.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 10 to 17 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Robert Henry Winters: the second reading of Bill No. 110, to establish the historic sites and monuments board of Canada.
He said: A famous Nova Scotian and Canadian statesman, Joseph Howe, once said that "a wise nation fosters national pride and love of country by perpetual reference to the sacrifices and glories of the past". One expression of the interest which we Canadians have in the history and tradition of our country is the recognition we have given to the importance of preserving and marking our ancient monuments and historic sites. These things recall not only great moments of the past, but thoughts and doings of other days, different from our own and yet a part of all that we are.
The object of the bill now before the house is to provide for the placing of the historic sites and monuments board of Canada on a statutory basis. Public interest in the board has increased greatly in recent years and more emphasis has been placed on the value of its work. The royal commission on national development in the arts, letters and sciences recommended a more comprehensive program of preserving and marking historic sites and monuments. The reconstitution of the board under the authority of an act of parliament would give fuller recognition to the importance of its function.
It is many years now since the federal government first recognized its responsibilities to honour and preserve this national heritage. The national parks branch, which was established in 1911, administered several historic sites, being primarily interested in scenic preservation. In June 1919, following extended representations from numerous organizations and individuals across Canada, the then minister of the interior nominated

an honorary historic sites and monuments board to advise the department in the selection of sites and events of national historic importance and thus worthy of commemoration. This first board was composed of a chairman, Brigadier General E. A. Cruick-shank, LL.D., F.R.S.C., of Ottawa, and five other recognized authorities on the history of the different parts of Canada. Among the members was the commissioner of the parks branch, who was the officer representing the department of the interior. The board served without remuneration, but the members received an allowance of $10 a day and their ordinary travelling expenses when attending meetings away from their places of residence.
In 1923 the board was reconstituted and the members were appointed by the governor in council. It was provided in the order in council that "the board is honorary, serves without remuneration and acts in an advisory capacity to the Department of the Interior, in regard to the historic sites of national interest". The reconstituted board consisted of seven members, and Brigadier General
E.	A. Cruickshank was appointed to carry on as chairman.
Subsequent orders in council were passed from time to time, adding to the membership of the board and filling vacancies as they occurred. The board is presently composed of thirteen members, including one member from each province; the dominion archivist; a representative from the national parks and historic sites division of the Department of Resources and Development and a retired official of the department. The members of the present board are:
Professor Fred Landon, M.A., LL.D., D.Litt.,
F.	R.S.C., London, Ontario-chairman.
Professor D. C. Harvey, M.A., LL.D., F.R.S.C.,
archivist, the public archives of Nova Scotia, Halifax, Nova Scotia.
The Honourable E. Fabre-Surveyer, LL.M., B.C.L., LL.D., F.R.S.C., the judges' chambers, superior court, Montreal, P.Q.
The Reverend Antoine d'Eschambault, D.S.T., D.J.C., Genthon, Manitoba.
Professor M. H. Long, M.A., F.R.S.C., department of history, the University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta.
Walter N. Sage, Esq., M.A., Ph.D., F.R.S.C., F.R. Hist. S., head of department of history, the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia.
The Honourable Thane A. Campbell, M.A., LL.D., chief justice of Prince Edward Island, Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island.
W. Kaye Lamb, Esq., M.A., Ph.D., LL.D., F.R.S.C., dominion archivist, public archives of Canada, Ottawa, Ontario.
Charles E. A. Jeffery, Esq., M.B.E., editor, The Evening Telegram, St. John's, Newfoundland.
Alfred G. Bailey, Esq.,.M.A., Ph.D., F.R.S.C., dean of arts, the University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, New Brunswick.
Historic Sites and Monuments
Campbell Innes, Esq., M.A., honorary superintendent, Fort Battleford national historic park, Battleford, Saskatchewan.
W.D. Cromarty, Esq., Ottawa, Ontario.
C.G. Childe, Esq., B.Sc., national parks branch, Ottawa, Ontario.
The board meets each year. In addition to the meetings a considerable amount of work is carried on by correspondence. The work of the board has been increasing and it is possible that in future more than one meeting each year will be necessary.
Hon. members will note that the board's function is advisory only. The implementation of their recommendations is subject to the approval of the minister and to funds being voted by parliament.
Hon. members may ask what criteria can be adopted in deciding whether an historic site is of national interest and significance rather than of only local interest and importance. What the board has done is to recognize certain broad and flexible divisions of Canadian history within which lie events and persons properly of interest to Canadians wherever they may be. These divisions reach back to prehistoric times, which have bequeathed to us relics of Indian life such as are to be found in Ontario and in British Columbia. Then follow the discovery and early exploration of Canada; the earliest French settlements in Quebec and Nova Scotia; the events of the Seven Years war in America; the defence of Canada during the American war of Independence and the war of 1812; the rebellion of 1837 and subsequent "patriot" invasions; the Fenian raids and the uprisings in the northwest in 1870 and 1885; and the exploration of the Canadian west from lake Superior to the Pacific ocean and northward to the Arctic.
In addition to this pageant of our history there are included as well the political development of Canada from the struggle in Nova Scotia for responsible government onward through confederation and the creation of new provinces; the entry into confederation of Newfoundland; our economic development; the social development of the Canadian people; and lastly the achievements of distinguished Canadians both at home and abroad.
Hon. members may be surprised to know that since 1919 the historic sites and monuments board has examined for their historical significance the circumstances surrounding more than one thousand historic sites. It has declared 623 of these sites to be of national importance.
Recommendations by the board, whose functions as I have said are purely advisory, would, under this bill, be submitted to the

Historic Sites and Monuments Minister of Resources and Development. On his approval, appropriate action is taken by the national parks branch, which has the responsibility for marking and preserving historic sites, subject of course to parliament providing the necessary funds. Already 429 historic sites have been marked or acquired. The remainder, together with future additions, will be dealt with as circumstances permit. The extent to which new projects can be undertaken is, of course, necessarily limited to the appropriations made available. In the three fiscal years ending 1952-53, total appropriations for the construction and operating costs of historic sites and national historic parks have averaged some $226,000 annually.
Perhaps I should refer now to the authority under sections 11 and 12 of the National Parks Act for the establishment of national historic parks. These sections provide that the governor in council may set apart any land, the title to which is vested in Her Majesty, as a national historic park to commemorate an historic event of national importance or to preserve any historic landmark or any object of historic, prehistoric or scientific interest of national importance and to bring it under certain provisions of the National Parks Act for administrative purposes. There are now eleven national historic parks in Canada, from the fortress of Louisbourg in the east to the recently acquired Fort Battle-ford in the west, administered by the national parks branch. At the present time certain sites are being considered as national historic parks in our newest province of Newfoundland. On the recommendation of the historic sites and monuments board, important preservative action has been taken in these parks, and several museums established to house important exhibits relating to the early histories of the surrounding districts.
In recent years there seems to be a growing desire in Canada to have commemorated the achievements of distinguished Canadians. Names of such prominent Canadians as Sir John A. Macdonald, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Mr. W. L. Mackenzie King and others have been established in perpetuity in a variety of ways both in the minds of our citizens as well as in plaque and statue. It may be of interest to hon. members that the board recommended at its meeting in May, 1952 that memorial tablets be erected in honour of the late Viscount Bennett at Calgary, Alberta, and at Hopewell, New Brunswick. Arrangements are under way at the present time to have this recommendation carried out. I might also mention that the board has for consideration at its next meeting the question of suitable commemoration of the birthplace of Sir Robert Laird Borden at Grand Pre, Nova Scotia.


The bill now before the house provides for the establishment of a board of twelve members; ten to be appointed by the governor in council and representing each of the provinces. The other two members would be the dominion archivist and the chief curator of the national museum. The chairman is to be appointed by the governor in council. The appointed members would hold office for periods not exceeding five years and any retiring member may be eligible for reappointment.
The powers and duties of the board as set forth in the bill are to receive and consider recommendations respecting the marking or commemoration of historic sites, the establishment of historic museums and the administration of such places, and to advise the minister in carrying out his duties under the act.
The bill defines an historic place as a site, building or other place of national interest or significance, and power is given to the minister to mark such places and to provide for their care and preservation. Authority is also sought subject to the approval of the governor in council to establish historic museums and to acquire land for such purpose.
I believe that hon. members will regard this bill as a tribute to the outstanding work successive historic sites and monuments boards have done over the years. It recognizes the need for permanency in this important phase of our Canadian growth and development as a nation. As Canadians, we cannot but be impressed by the greatness of the legacy our history has left to us to cherish and preserve. By continuing to work toward our objective of preserving the historic sites, buildings and objects of national interest, we shall be making a significant contribution to the education and inspiration of all our people and of visitors from other lands.


Mr. P. C. Black (Cumberland):: Mr. Speaker, I know that all members of the house are interested in and find themselves in sympathy with the statement that has been made by the Minister of Resources and Development (Mr. Winters). As he pointed out, no part of Canada has more historic sites, with only a few of them having been marked, than Nova Scotia. No part of Canada has had more individuals, whose record in the life of Nova Scotia and the life of Canada as a whole is more deserving of commemoration, than the province of Nova Scotia. The minister quoted in his remarks the well known words of Hon. Joseph Howe, one of the great Nova Scotians, with which words we are all in agreement. A great deal could be said about and direct references made to the past and present of Nova Scotia.

The minister referred to two prime ministers of Canada, Sir Robert Borden and Viscount Bennett. There are two other Nova Scotians who also became prime ministers of Canada, Sir John Thompson and Sir Charles Tupper. They were both great Canadians who left their imprint on the life of Canada. I have said before and I repeat that Canada would not be what it is, and perhaps would never have existed as it does today, if it had not been for the work carried on by Sir Charles Tupper in the days of confederation. In my native town of Amherst we had four fathers of confederation, Sir Charles Tupper, Hon. Robert Barry Dickey, great-grandfather of the senior member for Halifax (Mr. Dickey), Hon. Edward Chandler and Hon. Jonathan McCully.
The historic sites and monuments board has provided for the commemoration of these four great fathers of confederation in a very meagre way. In the sixtieth year of confederation four tablets were erected on the post office in the town of Amherst commemorating the names of these fathers of confederation. More permanent monuments should be erected to each of these famous men whose birthplace was in or near Amherst, Nova Scotia. There were five fathers of confederation from Nova Scotia, and four of them came from the county of Cumberland.
I know that all will be pleased that the board is being placed upon a more permanent basis than it has been in the past, although great credit is due to Sir Robert Borden, Viscount Bennett and the other prime ministers of Canada for what has been done and the appropriations that have been made from time to time, small though they have been. To name one other historic site in the county of Cumberland, there is the birthplace of Simon Newcomb, one of the greatest astronomers in history. A monument was erected to him at his birthplace at Wallace Bridge in 1930, if I remember rightly. There was a large gathering there on that occasion and among those who attended was Dr. Charles A. Eaton, who was born within a few miles of that site. Dr. Eaton, who was a member of congress in Washington for 28 years, died in January of this year, and it would be most appropriate indeed if a monument could be erected in his memory at his birthplace at Pugwash, Nova Scotia.
I gather from the statement by the minister that it is proposed to pay the members of this board a fee in addition to their expenses. As I understand it, they have carried on up to the present being only reimbursed for their out of pocket expenses and no fees have been paid to them. That is 68108-218J
Historic Sites and Monuments to the credit of the men who were members of the board, and it might be just as well if that practice could be continued. Members of the board, who would be willing to serve in the same way as their predecessors, could be selected from each of the provinces of Canada.
For many years Dr. J. C. Webster, of Shediac, who unfortunately died recently, was the maritime representative. In his day he did more to build up the prestige of the board than any person who ever sat on the board. He must be given credit for the erection of the museum at Fort Beausejour. He enlisted the co-operation of Prime Minister Bennett in the 1930's when it was very difficult to get appropriations; and the museum at Fort Beausejour was built. It has been enlarged and extended since, and tens of thousands of visitors from Canada and the United States go through it every year. The same work has been carried on at Louisbourg and at Annapolis.
As I have pointed out there are a great many similar sites and birthplaces that should be preserved and commemorated in the province of Nova Scotia and other parts of Canada. There are many individuals, such as the fathers of confederation, such as Dr. Charles Eaton and many others, to whom monuments should be erected in Nova Scotia. I doubt whether there is a proper monument erected at the birthplace of that great Nova Scotian mentioned by the minister in his address, Hon. Joseph Howe, although he has a monument at the provincial building, Halifax.
I was greatly pleased a few weeks ago to hear the Prime Minister announce that a monument was to be erected shortly to the memory of Sir Robert Borden. I believe there should be a statue erected to the memory of all the fathers of confederation, and all the prime ministers of Canada. As years go by, if this is done, it will be for the benefit of the younger people of Canada as well as all Canadians.
Mr. Speaker, I am entirely in sympathy with the proposals in this legislation, and I hope the minister will secure larger appropriations than have been available in the past to carry out the invaluable work of this historic sites and monuments board.


Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, a number of my constituents are particularly interested in this bill and in the subject of historic sites. I think it is a very nice, quiet, non-partisan subject after a very busy day; and I am quite sure, Mr. Speaker, considering the bills that have been put

Historic Sites and Monuments through the house this afternoon, that neither the government nor the minister will mind members taking a few minutes to express opinions on the bill.
I rise to support the bill, and I am very pleased to see that the historic sites and monuments board of Canada is now going to have a statutory basis.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think it is quite right to say that an intelligent awareness of history is a sign of maturity in the individual and in the community. A sense of history is necessary for a sense of continuity or understanding of the society in which we live. I understand that the board is composed of historians of recognized standing across the country. They have done worth-while work throughout the years with but very little public understanding and appreciation. For that I blame the government and to some extent the officials of the department concerned. I trust that this legislation is a step in the direction of correcting that situation. I might say as well that I am of the opinion that the members of the board have been somewhat of the nature of shrinking violets, because they have not given enough publicity to the excellent work they have been doing throughout the years.


Mr. Stuart (Charlotte):: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very pleased to hear that favourable comment from the member for Charlotte (Mr. Stuart).
I understand that it is the board's function to make recommendations to the minister concerning the marking of historic sites. According to the last report of the Department of Resources and Development, for the year ended March 31, 1952, there have been 429 sites marked or acquired, and there are 194 recommended for attention at a later date. On the basis of the rate of progress since 1923 it appears to me that it will take at least 20 years to give effect to the recommendations in hand at the present time. Mr. Speaker, I wonder why there is this unusual delay. This is not an expensive work and it does not occasion the outlay of a great deal of money. To me it indicates a certain lack of policy and vigour in proceeding with this work in which a large number of people across this country are interested.
I understand that some of the provincial government make grants, and that actually some municipal governments contribute to the marking of sites of provincial or local importance. It is quite safe to say, from a reading of the various estimates throughout


the years, that money which has been available from either federal, municipal or provincial sources has been insufficient to adequately mark the historic sites of this country.
Before going on to the meat of my speech, shall I say-and I trust it has some meat in it, Mr. Speaker-


Andrew Wesley Stuart: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: -I do want to pay tribute to the good work that has been done by the following organizations across this country: The Canadian historical society; the Champlain society; the British Columbia historical society; the Kootenay historical society.


Andrew Wesley Stuart: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The last two organizations are greatly interested in marking the very important sites we have in the Kootenay district and in British Columbia. I would like to mention a few individuals, and I have time to mention only a few. The first is Dr. Lamb, director of the archives of Canada. I think we are very, very fortunate in having a man like Dr. Lamb in charge of our archives. I would also like to mention Mr. Willard E. Ireland, provincial archivist for British Columbia and Mr. Bruce McKelvie, unofficial historian for British Columbia, who did an immense amount of work without remuneration and without thought of return in bringing to light historic sites and events. I would also mention Miss Molly Cottingham who spent three years writing, for her master's degree, an excellent history of Kootenay West which has not been published yet. There is also Mrs. Kate Johnson, a neighbour of mine, who last year published a history of Nakusp and the Arrow lakes. I must also mention Mr. R. G. Joy, unofficial historian of Nelson and the late Mr. B. Aitkins of Revelstoke. Both these gentlemen have made a great contribution to our knowledge of Kootenay history. Also there is Mr. John Nelson, a historical writer living in the north Arrow lakes at Galena Bay; and Mr. E. Picard who lives in my own village of Nakusp, who has collected a great deal of the early history of the district, some of which I have handed on to the national archives here. I mention those people, Mr. Speaker, because those who were willing to give their time to this sort of work are making a great contribution towards a more complete knowledge of our history, our social development and so on.
I just want to bring to the attention of the house one interesting incident that occurred at Arrowhead in the north Arrow lakes. In that district lived this gentleman who went there in the early days, Mr. John

Nelson of Galena Bay, who has located Indian graves that had been unknown previously, the sites of Indian camps and things of that sort. He has done this work over a period of many years and has written many interesting articles, and has supplied information for other people who were writing books.
In the early days of our country there was a Frenchman known as Jean Baptiste who came in from Quebec some time after Hudson Bay days and lived there until the early part of this century. While he was there the main company in the district at that time were a group of Englishmen who came from Great Britain, and he and some other French Canadians got on with them very well indeed. He was so surprised at what good-natured people these Englishmen were and how easy they were to get on with that he made a large flagpole, erected it on his property and on it flew the Union Jack on every public holiday. And when he came to leave, I think about the year 1905, he said to his friend Mr. John Nelson that he had so enjoyed his experience in western Canada and his association with these people of British extraction that he asked Mr. Nelson, to whom he gave the flagpole, to continue to fly the Union Jack on every national holiday. That gentleman has continued to do that up to date, and the flag was flown at half mast on his hearing of the death of the Dowager Queen Mary.
I just mention that incident, Mr. Speaker, as one of interest in connection with the activities of one person who has spent a lifetime gathering the notes and the information which will be of value in the years to come.
While the board has done a great deal of work-and I notice there are 194 sites that have been recommended still to be dealt with -I want to take this opportunity to bring to the attention of the house a few things that I think should be given consideration in the constituency of Kootenay West. I am not sure whether they are national, provincial or entirely local in scope, but I am going to mention them at this time. I am quite sure some of them are national in scope.
I think a suitable cairn should be erected somewhere at the crossing of the Columbia, either on the Robson or Castlegar side of the Columbia, to commemorate the discovery of the Columbia by David Thompson. At the present time Fort Kootenay is marked on the upper Columbia quite close to the headwaters and away from the travelled route, but there is no cairn or monument erected anywhere on the Columbia which can be seen by large numbers of local people and visitors. Once again I suggest that a cairn should be erected at the crossing of the Columbia, either on the Robson or the Castlegar side, so the people of
30. 1953	3433
Historic Sites and Monuments the district and particularly the children of the district will be inspired to know of Thompson's discoveries in the early years of the last century.
Then as a boy I went to school and played with a small band of Indians. When I was a boy the surviving Indians of the Arrow lakes district were mostly living in a band in the upper Arrow lakes, with a few of them at the junction of the Kootenay and the Columbia. I went to school with those Indians. Apparently for centuries before the coming of the white man these people had lived there in peace, security, and relative plenty. Yet today, within 100 years of the coming of the white man, we find that tribe so decimated that there is only one surviving squaw. I think that the memory of that quiet, small band of Indians-the Arrow lakes band-should be commemorated by the erection of a cairn or monument.
Then I think something should be done to mark the first discovery of gold on the mainland of British Columbia at the junction of the Pend-d'Oreille and the Columbia. Many of my constituents are interested in the mining and refining of base metals. The first discovery of base metals was at the Bluebell mine near Riondel on Kootenay lake. I could go on and mention a number of others of importance.
While we frequently mark historical sites to record achievements of individuals who have painted large brush strokes on the canvas of history, in my opinion the policy of the board should also be directed towards marking the sites on which occurred events of great permanent social significance. I want to draw to the attention of the minister one or two locations in my constituency in which events happened which had a tremendous effect upon the development of the district and an impact upon the whole British commonwealth.
In the 1890's United States capitalists first became interested in the Slocan country in connection with the mining of lead, silver, gold and other minerals. As a result there was a great impetus in mining in the 1890's in the Kootenay district. Miners came, some from the old countries, some from Cape Breton, and some from the states to the south. A reading of the record on my part clearly indicates that these Americans were primarily interested in quick profits, and not at all in the welfare of their men.
The need for organization soon became evident and the miners in the Kootenay in 1895 joined the western federation of miners. When the union sought collective bargaining and satisfactory conditions for the miners,
3434	HOUSE OF
Historic Sites and Monuments they were met with stiff opposition by the companies and the result was frequent strikes. As a result of these conditions, Mr. Speaker, the first organized support for the principles of socialism in British Columbia occurred at Sandon, British Columbia, in 1895, when the Kootenay miners, who were affiliated with the western federation of miners, advanced a program which was similar to that advanced by the C.C.F. group in this house, and supported Labour candidates for the legislature.
I remember quite well the story that during one strike the union hall in Silverton and the office of the management were on the same party line telephone. So that the management would not know what the miners were intending to do from day to day, they got two Scotsmen from Cape Breton who spoke Gaelic, one on one end of the line and one on the other; and for a period of over a month all conversations were carried on in Gaelic, much to the consternation of the mine owners and the management. In fact the management were under the impression that foreigners had taken control of the camp, and as a result they asked the government of British Columbia to send in the troops.
In this connection I want to say that at that time the late Senator Green was the provincial member of the legislature for the Slocan district. I must say that although he was a Conservative, to his undying credit it was on account of the efforts of the late Senator Green-who was the uncle of the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green)-that the government of British Columbia was restrained from sending troops into Sandon and the Slocan area to quell the strike. As a result, whether he ran for the provincial legislature or later to become a member of parliament, as a Conservative, he received the support of the miners because of the action he took in preventing the troops from coming in to break the strike.
Another interesting thing in connection with that situation was that the present Senator Thomas Farquhar was president of the western federation of miners in Sandon during the period of the strikes and those most difficult days. Senator Farquhar was then very active as president of the union, and is still remembered by a few of the older miners for his work on behalf of organized labour and his support at that time of a socialistic policy very closely resembling that of the C.C.F.
Well, as a result of this difficulty and other labour conditions in British Columbia, as I said before, there was a consolidation of support for socialistic principles; and I am sug-
[Mr. Herridged

gesting, Mr. Speaker, to the minister that an event of such social significance should be recognized. It would be well worth while for us to strike a plaque or erect a cairn to indicate the birth of socialism in British Columbia at Sandon.


Andrew Wesley Stuart: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am very pleased to see that I have the support of some of the Liberal members.
The first socialist paper in British Columbia was the Lardeau Eagle, published at Ferguson, British Columbia, by Mr. R. P. Pettapiece, who I think is retired and still living in Vancouver. How about another cairn to mark the publication of the first socialist paper in Ferguson, British Columbia, which is a small mining camp at the present time?
I want to bring to the attention of the house one event of particular and international significance. Owing to the labour troubles in the Kootenays in British Columbia at the beginning of this century, the federal government appointed what was called a royal labour commission to investigate the whole situation and former prime minister Mackenzie King, who was then deputy minister of labour, was the secretary of the commission. When that commission reported to the government it recommended the legal prohibition of socialism in Canada, and prohibition of the publication of all socialist literature. Anyway, this clash between the owners and the workers continued, and as a result of the continued organization of the workers the first move was made in Rossland that resulted in labour for the first time in the British commonwealth being able to strike without suffering action for damages.
The first right that labour won was the right to organize; the second right was to strike without the union being sued for damages, and that right was first won in the British commonwealth in the town of Rossland, British Columbia, in my constituency. In that connection I just wish to quote briefly from the Labour Gazette of 1904: An act to amend the law relating to trade unions was passed in British Columbia; and from the Labour Gazette I quote the following:
This act is of extreme importance in trade union history, not only in British Columbia hut also in Canada and the British empire. The statute originated from circumstances similar to those that made necessary the passage of the trade disputes act in Great Britain in 1906, but it will be noted that the provincial statute was passed four years earlier. From July to November, 1901, about one thousand miners at Rossland, organized as a local of the western federation of miners, struck for higher wages and union recognition by the Le Roi Mining Company. In October the company sued the union for damages and asked for an injunction to restrain local unions for attempting to persuade

others not to work for the company; the company was particularly annoyed when members of the union succeeded in getting imported strikebreakers to cease work. The courts awarded $12,500 and costs to the company and a receivership was established. Following this decision in British Columbia protests were made regarding the law relating to trade unions as they were later in Britain following the Taff Vale decision. Martin's legislation was a direct response to these protests and in general provided simply that no trade union was to be liable in damages for any wrongful act in connection with a labour dispute unless such act had been authorized or concurred in by the members of the union or by its officers acting within their powers under the rules of the union.
Now, Mr. Speaker, that was an event of international significance. I again suggest to the minister that the place where for the first time in the British commonwealth a trade union won the right to strike without being liable to damages is a place where a significant social event occurred and justifies recognition by the historic sites and monuments board.


Clarence Gillis: Hear, hear.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Hear, hear.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I am glad to see that I have support from Cape Breton and from Newfoundland. I have mentioned a few places that I think should be given consideration by the board; I could go on, but I do not want to delay the house too long. In general I support the recommendations outlined in the report of the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences, but I wish to place particular emphasis on the following paragraphs:
a. That the historic sites and monuments board undertake a much more comprehensive program in the future and that it be provided with funds adequate for its important responsibilities.
I do want to emphasize that, Mr. Speaker, because I think the government has been very stingy so far as funds are concerned for use by the historic sites and monuments board. Then I go on to paragraph c.
c. That where the site alone of an important historical event has survived without buildings or other evidence of the past, markers be devised with suitable aesthetic and imaginative appeal and with inscriptions more legible and shorter than those now commonly used; and that consideration be given to the commissioning of Canadian sculptors to create suitable and worthy memorials.
There is room for more imagination with respect to the type of marker and cairn used. Paragraph e. reads:
That the board review and establish clearly its policy on the preservation of historic sites-	.
That is very important. The public should be informed of the policy of the board. As I said before, so far as general knowledge of the activities of the board is concerned, the public know very little about it. The policy
Historic Sites and Monuments of the board should be clearly established, and should be published so that all Canadians know what work the board is undertaking. Then I go on to paragraph f:
That the board by every means, but without encroaching on matters of provincial responsibility, maintain close and friendly relations with provincial authorities which have responsibilities similar to its own; that there be the fullest possible exchange of plans and information; that the board consider whether periodic conferences with provincial authorities might not be practical and desirable.
That is an excellent recommendation. There should be more done along the line of defining the jurisdiction of the historic sites and monuments board, the jurisdiction of the provinces, and the jurisdiction of municipal and local authorities. Then I go on to paragraph g:
That in general the board act as a clearing house for information on all questions pertinent to the appropriate and accurate restoration, preservation and marking of Canadian historic sites and monuments.
The board is a natural clearing house; and if they find a recommendation is made that comes strictly within the purview of provincial or local authority they simply pass it back and inform these people accordingly. In addition to that I suggest there should be close co-operation with national and local historical societies; with teachers' associations, women's organizations, service clubs and other organizations that are interested in this work. I do think there should be a recognition by the board of the related organizations in the provinces and the local districts. This should be some form of official recognition of the work undertaken by people who have spent years gathering information, looking for sites, and making very valuable contributions towards a permanent record of our history. This recognition would not cost very much.
It would be only proper if the gentleman of whom I was speaking in the north Arrow lakes section were to receive some recognition in the form of a scroll, or something of that type, showing an appreciation of the work he has done in connection with the preservation of sites and the gathering of historical information, and others likewise.
I believe there should be co-operation at all levels. While I have offered some criticism of the board and its work, I wish to express my appreciation of the work it has been doing throughout the years. And before concluding may I express my personal appreciation and admiration of the work done by voluntary effort on the part of the board and officials associated with it. I would hope that in the future it might be provided with
3436	HOUSE OF
Historic Sites and Monuments funds sufficient to give effect to the recommendations of the royal commission on the arts, letters and sciences.
The work of the board in my opinion is to restore a sense of history and tradition in our people, and in the lives of those who have been cut adrift from a real partnership in that history by the trivia of modern life.


Mr. S. R. Balcom (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, as Nova Scotia is steeped in history I should like to take a few moments to speak in this debate. The Minister of Resources and Development (Mr. Winters) and the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) have mentioned Joseph Howe. I was very glad to hear his name mentioned, as indeed I am at all times, for about the time of confederation that great Nova Scotian, who fought and obtained responsible government for Nova Scotia and thus for the rest of Canada, said that a wise nation preserves its records, gathers up its muniments, decorates the tombs of its illustrious dead, repairs its great public structures and fosters national pride and love of country by perpetual reference to the sacrifices and glories of the past.
I suggest that the works Joseph Howe advocated and revered are being carried out efficiently and well in all ten provinces of Canada by the minister. He is following the precepts of Joseph Howe; he is conscious that sites and monuments must be preserved for posterity and that our great men of history must be honoured.
Mr. Speaker, we from the bluenose country are very proud of our history and the part played by our forefathers in the development of Canada. Nova Scotia has the proud distinction of being the only province of Canada and the first colony of Great Britain to possess, through royal charter, a flag of its own. The flag of Nova Scotia traces its origin to the charter of New Scotland granted in 1621 to Sir William Alexander, afterwards the Earl of Stirling, by King James VI of Scotland and I of England.
And here, sir, may I say that we have no desire to flaunt this flag; for I believe, Mr. Speaker, that there is one flag for Canada, not ten; as far as I am concerned personally that good old historic flag, the union jack, is adequate. Indeed, we do ourselves honour thereby. Our people must possess a full appreciation of our history; they must place a value on the links with the past. Too many of these links have already been lost through sheer neglect-to cite only one, the routes of the early explorers.
What appeals to me, sir, and I am sure it must also strike every hon. member in this 

house, is the fact that all provinces of Canada are receiving equal attention from the Department of Resources and Development; no one part is favoured. I am sure, if I might be permitted to speak for Nova Scotia, I could name many parts of the province that have had suitable monuments erected or parks opened in commemoration of some great historic event. May I mention only a few: Shelburne, the Loyalist town; Louisburg and her forts; Wolfe's Landing; King's College, the oldest university in the Queen's overseas dominions, or rather in the British commonwealth as it is known today. Then there is Liverpool, Nova Scotia; Lunenburg, the home of the minister; Annapolis, the home of the "Firsts" in Canada, and where Champlain built his first trading post. And I must not overlook Halifax and Dartmouth, two places full of history which are very well monu-mented and marked by the historic sites board. For this we are very grateful to the minister for his co-operation and consideration.
Among the places suitably marked in Halifax are: The site of the first printing press in Canada; a plaque in commemoration of the battle between the Shannon and the Chesapeake, when the Shannon defeated a very brave foe and towed her into Halifax; the site of the first post office in Canada; a monument erected on the grounds of Dalhousie university known as the Castine cairn, erected to commemorate an expedition of combined forces of the army and navy, when it invaded Maine and captured Machias. A customs office was set up; and if the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) were in his seat tonight he would be interested to know that they collected this money, brought it back to Canada and established a university.
Then there is the site of the first zoo in North America; a monument to Captain Samuel Cook, the world explorer once stationed in Halifax; and there are many other things. But all attainments are climaxed by the minister's department taking over the rehabilitation of historic Citadel hill, Fort St. George, and the old town clock, saving them for posterity. Both of these were built by the Duke of Kent, the father of Queen Victoria. The fort gets its name from the duke's father, King George III.
In this connection I wish to refer to the invaluable contribution to these developments by our Nova Scotia archivist, Dr. D. C. Harvey. He is not only making a fine contribution in that capacity and in the field of historical writing, but he has given devoted service on the historic sites and monuments

board. His work is best summed up in the words "modesty and integrity", qualities which arise, in part, from a keen historical sense and which all citizens would do well to emulate. Let me pay tribute here also to Major William Coates Borrett, whose work has been of particular interest to Halifax city. He is making his mark in the restoration of Citadel hill.
Across the whole length and breadth of this country there is ample evidence that Canadians as a nation, and this Liberal government of today, possess a full realization of the importance of preserving our records and keeping alive the glories and achievements of the past. These will be an inspiration to the present generation and the generations to come, for as time goes on immigration will bring in those not so familiar with our history. Our historic sites and monuments from Newfoundland to the Yukon should be a panorama of past achievements in one form or another.
Already the Citadel hill restoration has created interest in all parts of Canada and the United States, for no less than 40,000 visitors registered there last summer. My colleague, the senior member for Halifax (Mr. Dickey), and myself would like at this time to make the hon. minister aware that Nova Scotians are most grateful for his farsightedness, his broad vision, his devoted interest and his introduction of Bill No. 110.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Speaker, when this bill has been passed, I trust that the historic sites and monuments board of Canada, being then on a statutory basis, will feel sufficiently secure in their position to be able to go ahead and suitably mark and otherwise deal with historic sites without giving consideration to religious or other matters which may come into the question.
I say this because of what happened a year or two ago. An association was formed in and around Calgary for the purpose of restoring and suitably marking the first church built in southern Alberta, at Morley, between Calgary and Banff, on the Stony Indian reservation. This association wanted some official backing and financial assistance. They wrote to me and asked me to take up the matter with the minister and the historic sites and monuments board. I spoke to the minister about it and he seemed quite favourably disposed. He thought perhaps it was a good idea to have this church restored and properly looked after. However, he said the thing would have to be referred to this historic sites and monuments board. It was duly referred there and the answer came back that they did not make it a practice to mark
Historic Sites and Monuments or otherwise deal with sites in connection with which there was any religious association, or something along that line. As a result that particular church and site, at which the first church was established in Alberta, has not yet received any help or been recommended for recognition.
It seems to me that considerations of that kind should not enter into the matter. As I say, I would hope that when this board is set up on a statutory basis it will feel sufficiently secure in its position to deal with these questions of historic sites which come to its attention on their merits and not from the point of view of religious, racial or other considerations which may affect the site and its marking. I mention this matter again at this moment, not only to recommend 'it once more to the minister but to bring it again to the attention of the historic sites and monuments board in the hope that something definite will be done with regard to this particular historic site.


Mr. G. M. Murray (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker, the bill before this house will perform a most important service if it merely keeps the story correctly recorded. We are proud of our historical background in the Cariboo. Anyone who lives as I do on the banks of the Peace river would naturally be interested in the history of that northern area.
In 1805 a magnificent trading post was established at the headwaters of the Peace river by Alexander Mackenzie of the North West Company at Fort McLeod. Fort McLeod appears in all the histories of British Columbia and western Canada. When Alexander Mackenzie made his historic journey overland to Bella Coola he made a journey that stands out in the history of America. He directed that Fort McLeod on McLeod lake be established.
One would think that an historic site of that kind would be marked by a cairn or monument, possibly to the great highlander Mackenzie. But time marches on and what do we find? About one year ago "Fort McLeod, B.C." was removed body and breeches to Alberta and placed in the riding of the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell). The name was taken off the official records of Canada. This fort, established as it was in 1805, was taken to Macleod, Alberta, and attached to that small cattle town down below Calgary, possibly for the enjoyment of United States tourists.
That incident was most regrettable, and is something which should be corrected through the provisions of this bill which is before the house. There is an ancient moral

Historic Sites and Monuments law that you must not change boundary lines or historical monuments in a country.
It is a great pleasure to us that Dr. W. Kaye Lamb, a native son of British Columbia who was born on the banks of the Fraser river, now the dominion archivist and one of the most distinguished members of the public service of our country, is a member of this board. I know Dr. Lamb will cooperate in seeing that in future there are no more of these gross deeds committed such as changing British Columbia historical place names. I hope that in due time Fort McLeod will be returned to its ancient and beautiful site on McLeod lake in northern British Columbia, on the pine pass highway.
There is one other matter I should like to bring to the attention of the minister, in the hope that under this bill something will be done to improve and make beautiful the cemetery at Barkerville, British Columbia, which contains the ashes of some of the most gallant and distinguished pioneers our country has known. Barkerville cemetery at the present time is overgrown with thorns, thistles and other wild things. The fence is broken down.
There should be a permanent monument to these men who were actually the first gold seekers in British Columbia, regardless of what the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) has to say about it. In 1858 they were taking small quantities of gold out of Williams creek at Barkerville, and in 1860 the value increased to millions of pounds annually, though the mines were five hundred miles from the Pacific coast and accessible only by means of a very rough trail.
In that historic cemetery are the remains of the great Cariboo Cameron who came from Glengarry. He went into Barkerville in the early sixties and made a vast fortune in the mining of gold which he took back to Glengarry and spent handsomely on his relatives and friends. He then returned to Barkerville to make a second fortune. The story of Cariboo Cameron is one of the epics of Canadian frontier life, as is also that of Twelve-foot Davis, who was one of his associates.
The remains of men of that type lie in Barkerville cemetery. Something should be done to make this cemetery a permanent memorial to the early pioneers of our country, as has been done at Halifax and elsewhere.
I want to say a word with respect to the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) and his fine tribute of a purely political nature, which I do not think had any place at all in this debate, in which he referred to Hon. Joseph Martin, who was
IMr. Murray (Cariboo).]

premier of British Columbia in 1900. If I heard him correctly, he identified Martin either with the socialists or with what at that time was the embryo of the C.C.F. If he did that he did an injustice to one of the great men of that day, Joseph Martin, a Liberal and Liberal premier of British Columbia for a very brief period, but one of the great reformers of his time. He was a native of Milton, Ontario, who sat not only in the British Columbia legislative assembly but was at one time or another attorney general of Manitoba, a member of the Canadian House of Commons, and to top it all went over to England and became a member of the British house for East St. Pancras. He was a distinguished lawyer and statesman, perhaps a bit rebellious and original in his approach to matters of state but nevertheless a very great man.
Together with the late Mackenzie King and the late Ralph Smith of Nanaimo, who was president of the federation of labour in Canada at that time, he brought about labour legislation which had such an influence upon the industrial life of our country. Let us keep the record straight, give credit where it is due and certainly erect appropriate memorials. As a matter of fact some of these Liberals do not need anything in brass or stone. Their names and their works live after them, and that is about the best memorial any man could wish for.


Mr. H. P. Cavers (Lincoln):: Mr. Speaker, when I heard the Minister of Resources and Development (Mr. Winters) refer to a famous Nova Scotian, Joseph Howe, I thought it was a creditable thing that he should refer to a celebrated figure of his native province. However, it occurred to me that probably we are not carrying out the suggestions of Joseph Howe as we should be. Our neighbours to the south have found it to their advantage to take note of and mark some of their famous historic sites in order that their newer citizens and the young people of their country may have some interest in their past history.
In the constituency which I represent we have Fort Mississauga at Niagara-on-the-Lake which is not only a place of local interest but one of international importance. It was a celebrated fort in the war of 1812. In recent years it has fallen gradually into a dilapidated condition, a state of disrepair. I suggest that the board which is being set up might consider the restoration and preservation of the fort in its natural state in order that it might retain its place in the historic life of the country.
I should like to refer to another place which, although probably not an historic site,

certainly is a hallowed spot; that is the memorial tower in these buildings. I am informed that the Book of Remembrance contains the names of veterans of the war of 1914-18. I should like to see a book of remembrance prepared commemorating the names of those persons who gave their lives in the second world war. I am not prepared to say whether there is sufficient space to house a book of this kind in the present memorial tower, but I believe that certainly some place in this building should be set aside as a sacred spot to house a book of remembrance containing the names of those persons who gave their lives in the second world war.
I believe the permanent board that is being set up to look after matters of historic importance might consider these facts. If they undertake their work in a conscientious manner-and I know they will-there are many places throughout the length and breadth of the country that should be suitably marked in order that they may stand as monuments to the efforts of people who in past years have helped to build the history of the country.


Mr. Rodney Adamson (York West):: Mr. Speaker, I would not have entered the debate if it had not been for the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) making some reference to the first case of trade unionism in the British empire. Apparently the house is not aware of the case of the Tolpuddle martyrs. I want to bring to the attention of the house that the first member for Bytown, Mr. S. Derbyshire, was the defender of these martyrs. He was one of the counsel employed to defend them in 1834. I think that shows that predecessor parliaments in the days of Upper Canada were founded on a spirit of tolerance and justice. I merely wanted to mention that because it appears to be a historic fact that has not been remembered.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, sometimes during a session there are occasions when one can look over our country and pick out bits of history that need to be recorded. I am very happy indeed that the historic sites and monuments board does such recording almost continuously. A short time ago I became interested in reading something of the early explorations of the prairie provinces. What intrigued me first of all was to learn from Rev. J. W. Whillans, of Vancouver, that in the call letters of the C.B.C. station at Watrous, Saskatchewan, CBK, the K stands for Kelsey, the man who first travelled along the North Saskatchewan river in 1690. That story has only recently come to light in our archives. I believe his
30, 1953
Historic Sites and Monuments diaries were read after having been lost for almost two centuries.
We know very little about the early history of the prairie provinces, and it seems to me that a great deal more research should be done for the purpose of marking historic sites and remembering those who have explored the regions which today have become settled and are becoming more important to our country and more prosperous as the days go by. As I understand it, there are few monuments to this young man who at 20 years of age was sent to Churchill by the Hudson's Bay Company. After he had been there for a while he was sent out to get furs and to try to negotiate with the bands of Indians who then roamed our western plains. On that journey he spent two years. I am told there is a cross to his memory at The Pas, but I believe that is the only monument to his memory to be found anywhere on the prairies or elsewhere in Canada. Yet it was this forgotten young explorer who first saw the North Saskatchewan river flowing through the prairies and who penetrated to the South Saskatchewan and the Battle river. He probably was the first English-speaking explorer to see either northern Saskatchewan or northern Alberta.
It seems to me the board, with the assistance of the archives and the government, might do a little more to give us a story of the early explorers, both of the French who saw the southern plains first and of this young English explorer who saw the northern part of the prairie provinces-Manitoba, Saskatchewan and probably Alberta-for the first time in the year 1690.
Since we are discussing these historic sites and historic monuments, there indeed is a field that might be explored a little more than we have been able to explore it in years gone by. There is, too, the problem of the preservation of historic spots. In my own province of Saskatchewan we have the rifle pits around Duck lake where the last Riel rebellion was fought. Some may object to calling it the Riel rebellion because it was the protest against the threatened loss of the lands of the French-speaking metis who were in that area of Saskatchewan. The rifle pits are being obliterated.
These historic sites, so few of them, which are marks of our early years in our prairies and indeed in other provinces, should be carefully preserved so that in future years students and others interested may visit them.
After all, to appreciate the history of a country and its people, one needs to know something of what they did, how they lived and what they went through, particularly in

Historic Sites and Monuments their early years. I think the reason we find it sometimes difficult for boys and girls, students of our primary schools and high schools, to become interested in the history of our country, which is very fascinating, is because we have not marked some of those spots, and we have not shown them where certain events of interest to our country occurred in days gone by. I think perhaps those of us who had the opportunity when we were young of living in a historic city, for example, and of learning our history by visiting places in those cities-the city gates, the city walls, the city castle and the old cathedral with its wonderful craftsmanship of the middle ages-have a greater interest in the history of our people and our country.
It seems to me that this parliament might do more, as outlined in the Massey commission recommendations, to assist with the marking of historic spots and with their preservation so that young Canadians in years to come can better understand the history of French Canada, the history of English Canada, the history of Acadia, and of the explorers who crossed the Rockies and went down the rivers of British Columbia. Canada might, of course, have owned the western states of Washington and California if our forebears had indeed known more about the country.
I just wanted to rise, when this opportunity was given to the house, to suggest that a great deal more should be done to encourage the board and the government to mark places of significance in the early history of Canada. One of the individuals whose life, explorations, diaries and works should be studied is the young man whose surname gives the call letter to CBK at Watrous, the young man who served the Hudson's Bay Company and explored our northern prairie region, Henry Kelsey, who thus deserves more recognition than he has received.


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a word on this matter by reason of the fact that a few moments ago the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Murray) spoke and registered some little complaint. In listening to him I gathered that it was assumed that Fort McLeod had been taken from his constituency and moved to mine. Now that is just not so. It is true that there was a community in the Cariboo constituency known as Fort McLeod, but Fort Macleod has been an historic spot in southern Alberta for around 75 years. That figure would not perhaps impress those from eastern Canada very greatly, but 75 years back, nearly a hundred years back, there was nothing at all in western Canada except Indian tribes.

Fort Macleod was known in those days and established as an outpost by what was then the North West Mounted Police. The town of Macleod, from which the constituency which I have the honour to represent is named, was in the early days known as Fort Macleod. Eventually the post office there became known as Macleod, and it was so indicated in the post office guide.
In the early days that fort was a landmark in the southern part of Alberta and the post of the historic North West Mounted Police. I am reminded by my leader here that Fort Macleod of that area was for many years the only outpost of the North West Mounted Police west of Regina. It was largely because of the establishment of Fort Macleod in southern Alberta that law and order was brought to western Canada, at least to the regions beyond Regina.
The old barracks of the North West Mounted Police stood for many years in the town of Macleod, but one by one they were allowed to deteriorate until today there is not much of the original buildings left standing. I believe it is a shame that this fort with all its historic significance was allowed to deteriorate. Had this present measure been effective right along throughout the years perhaps these buildings would not have been allowed to deteriorate and almost completely disappear.
I therefore welcome this measure and ask the minister to exercise his authority under it, as will many other hon. members for certain sites in their own constituencies. I believe that Fort Macleod in southern Alberta has a sort of priority in claim to be restored and for suitable monuments to be placed there. Many books have been written about the experiences and the life of the people in that part of the country in the early days.
I might mention this, Mr. Speaker, in connection with what was said by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Murray). He assumed that the fort was moved. That is not so. What happened was simply this. Interested and civic-minded citizens of the town of Macleod, seeing what was happening in respect to the old fort, wanted to call a halt to it. Recognizing that the town of Macleod had a historic background, they desired only to restore the original name, and they took appropriate action. Today that town is now known as the town of Fort Macleod. I believe it will now become necessary to amend even the Canada Elections Act to have the constituency known as the constituency of Fort Macleod. That is desirable, in any event.

I might say this. Perhaps I am a bit rusty on my western Canada geography, but quite frankly I may say that I did not know there was a post office named Fort McLeod away up in the Cariboo country until the name of the town of Macleod in southern Alberta was restored to its original name of Fort Macleod. Then I addressed a letter to one of my constituents in Fort Macleod and had it returned by the post office authorities, who said that the only Fort McLeod they knew of was in British Columbia. That was the first time I had known that there was a Fort McLeod in British Columbia.
The only thing that has happened is that the town of Macleod has now reverted to its original name of Fort Macleod. It does have a history, and an exceedingly important one. I ask the minister to take this fact into account when he exercises his authority under this particular measure.
(Translation):


Albany M. Robichaud: Mr. Speaker, I only wish to add a few words to the interesting and constructive remarks made this evening concerning the bill now before the house. I make it a point to speak in my mother tongue because I deem that it is appropriate and advisable that a French voice should intermingle with others tonight to speak briefly about the establishment of a historic sites and monuments board for Canada, as expressly provided for in this bill.
Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, the descendants of old France have been, along with those of the emerald isle and of the Anglo-Saxon race, the architects of Canadian history. That is why I rise tonight to bring my small contribution to this debate.
The historic sites and monuments board of Canada, which is provided for in the bill, should be, as I have pointed out, truly representative of the country, not merely from a geographical or purely provincial point of view, but especially from the ethnical point of view. The government should not forget that. I wish to stress that the ethnical factor must not be overlooked and that one of the members of this (commission should be of Acadian descent, a son of old Acadia. Consequently, I am making the suggestion to the Hon. Minister of Resources and Development (Mr. Winters) that at least one representative of Acadian origin should be appointed to this commission. After all, Mr. Speaker, we Acadians have a history and it is quite a history, some chapters of which were
30, 1953	3441
Historic Sites and Monuments extremely tragic and even prompted one of the greatest American poets, Longfellow, to immortalize the history of Acadia in his poem "Evangeline".
We have our own mentality, our own ways and customs. We have also our culture. I say that we make up a very important element in the French population of this country. We should be represented on this commission.
I contend that, if there is no historian of Acadian origin on this commission, very important chapters of our history will be overlooked.
I therefore suggest to the minister that since the Acadians now make up one of the most important groups out of the total population of New Brunswick, it would only be fair and logical that the representative of our province on this commission be an Acadian. We do have highly competent historians. Why should a place not be found1 for them on the commission?
Those are the remarks, Mr. Speaker, I wished to make with regard to this debate.
I .could of course go on to mention the very important historic sites in our province of New Brunswick, especially in the northern part, but I realize that the minister, coming as he does from the maritimes, will see to it that after the demands of the western provinces have been satisfied,, those of the maritimes will be looked after, but especially that the Acadians will have one representative out of three. Once more I stress the importance of having a historian of Acadian origin as a member of this commission. Before resuming my seat, I thank the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) for having mentioned Acadia in his remarks.
(Text):


Mr. Maurice Boisvert (Nicolel-Yamaska):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say a few words with respect to this legislation. I think it is appropriate that a voice from Quebec should be raised in support of this motion. History is the background of any civilization and, as everybody in this house knows, Quebec is the background of the national history of this country.
We do not envy any historical site in any other province. We are in full agreement with all those who have taken part in this debate and who have claimed that historic sites in various provinces should be brought to the attention of the children and also of the grown-up people. Nevertheless I think great consideration should be given to the his-
3442	HOUSE OF
Historic Sites and Monuments torical sites of the province of Quebec because we have sites whence came discoverers of the western provinces, of the western part of the United States and of many other places in America.
I am therefore asking the minister that, in organizing the body which will take care of the historical sites of the province of Quebec, he give great consideration to those various sites in our province which are known by us but not always by everybody else in this country. I have confidence in the government that our province will not be neglected in the organization of a scheme which will appeal to the people of Canada in regard to these sites. If they come to my constituency they will discover quite a lot of historical sites that should be known by many people in our country.


William Joseph Browne: I think representatives from nearly all the provinces have had something to say on this bill with which everybody is in agreement. I do not think there is any voice that could be raised against a constitutional board of this kind; but I am wondering whether it is going to make any difference to the work that has been carried on by voluntary organizations for so long. They have found and. marked over four hundred spots in the dominion and I think there is only one place now that has not been given due attention, namely the new province of Newfoundland, which tomorrow will commemorate the fourth anniversary of its entry into the Dominion of Canada.
When we came into the Dominion of Canada four years ago we may not have brought very much material wealth, but we brought a wealth of historical tradition, because we can lay claim now to being the oldest part of this dominion, having been discovered in 1497 by John Cabot, and having had people settled there before Champlain came to Quebec. We had efforts at settlement made in 1610 by John Guy, but there are people in Newfoundland today who claim that their ancestors were settled in Newfoundland before John Guy attempted to found his colony. We have on the east coast of Newfoundland an area between Bonavista and Trepassey which is full of historical places. There I could mention Cupids, where John Guy attempted to found his colony; Ferry-land, where Calvert, Lord Baltimore, attempted to found a colony until he was driven off by the hostilities of the French fleet and went to found a colony at Baltimore, Maryland. Then we have Carbonear and Bonavista, two places which were able to hold out against the attacks of the French army, which had come overland and captured all the fishing settlements except these two places. We have Placentia, which was 

for many years the headquarters of the French occupation, and where the French Franciscans appointed from Quebec by Monsignor de St. Valier were established for many years and where were found up to a few years ago Basque tombstones going back to the sixteenth century. I saw them myself, but I believe they were removed by people who came and saw those ancient monuments and took them away.
We have a good many other historical places which I hope will soon be marked. I do not know of anything that has been marked down there since we came into confederation, except a monument to Alcock and Brown, who were the first airmen to fly directly across the Atlantic. We had the first trans-Atlantic wireless, the first trans-Atlantic cable and many other interesting historical associations that have yet to be marked. But the principal part, it seems to me, is that area that I have described: Bonavista, which was supposed to be the first place in North America which was seen by a person coming from Europe, and St. John's, which was supposed to be the first place that Cabot entered.
I certainly agree with the previous speaker with respect to the importance of Quebec. There is no doubt that Quebec has a glorious history, from the time of Cartier, Champlain, Maisonneuve and all those wonderful Franciscan, Sulpician and Jesuit missionaries who went with the explorers across this country and into the trackless wilderness and lived for many years with the Indians, endeavouring to bring to them the virtues and benefits of Christian civilization.
It seems to me that perhaps the historic sites and monuments board has not given as much consideration as it should to some of the places where these people laboured. I am thinking particularly of Huronia, where the Ontario government and private archaeologists have done so much work in digging up the remains of the forts at Midland where the Jesuit Brebeuf and his companions were martyred over three hundred years ago.
There is no doubt there is a great work ahead for this board, and now that they are going to be put on a new basis where they will receive compensation for their services,
I hope the work they do will be such as will merit the gratitude of hon. members and the people of this country. I hope, too, that it will mean a new inspiration to the youth of this country to labour as those distinguished people whose names I have mentioned, or who have been mentioned in this debate this evening, have laboured for the benefit of those who were to come after them.


George Alexander Cruickshank: want to take a little different line from the

previous speakers I have heard-and I have only heard a couple. Nevertheless I am not particularly interested in having any new historic sites erected in my riding. The very name itself is historic enough. It is one that will be historic here long after many other ridings are no longer remembered.
We have three historic monuments in my riding, Mr. Speaker, that I am particularly interested in. The hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Murray) spoke of the historic sites in my riding. I presume the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Gibson) has also spoken. He has a very historic site in his riding, Bamfield, an outstanding part of his riding.
I am not so much interested in the board as in the sites that we have now, namely at Alexander, Yale and Hope in my riding.
Not so long ago I got a letter from somebody in the department asking me for the name of an individual who would take care of one of these sites-and this is not patronage; if my hon. friends in the opposition think so I will give them that part of the patronage. In the province of British Columbia we either give our services for nothing or we believe that the labourer is worthy of his hire. We go to a lot of trouble and write a lot of books about these historical sites; we give people degrees and they put D.P.Q.'s and O.B.C.'s and other titles after their names, but what do they offer a man to care for one of these sites? They offer him $40. If I were a minister I would not even have my tongue in my cheek if I offered anybody the sum of $40 a year to care for a site.
I live in British Columbia near one of these sites.


An hon. Member:: Are you trying to delay the passage of the bill?


George Alexander Cruickshank: We have ample time to get it through before ten o'clock. I live in a place where there are real sites. I want to mention one. At Hope there is a cairn on the bank of the Fraser river to mark the site of Fort Hope which was built by the Hudson's Bay Company in 1848, about the year some of the members over here were born. They offered a caretaker the sum of $40 to look after that site for one year.
We have another site here, and the caretaker does not even get $40. At Yale a large boulder with an inscription is being placed to mark the site of old Fort Yale, one of the terminals of the Cariboo wagon road built in 1862-65, which extended north 400 miles to the gold mines of the Cariboo, the area to which one of the speakers referred this evening.
30, 1953	3443
Historic Sites and Monuments
These are historic sites. At Yale they had to discontinue their vegetable gardens because the gold was getting mixed in with the roots of the carrots and killing them off. They pay $35 a year for the care of that site.
And then, under this bountiful historic sites branch, there is the cairn to mark the site of Fort Alexandria, built in 1921. This was the last post established by the North West Company west of the Rocky mountains, and the farthest point reached by Sir Alexander Mackenzie in his descent of the Fraser river in 1793. Adjacent to this point is the old Cariboo road across the Fraser, and the first suspension bridge ever built in the province. It was constructed in 1863.
The nearest residents are the people in an automobile camp located about two miles away. The only other people in the locality are those on an Indian reservation about eleven miles away. Back here in the east they will get a man to come and look after the grass, possibly without charge. In the cases I have mentioned they pay $40 a year in one instance and $35 in another.
And if we are going to have monuments erected to historic structures, let me say that I travelled on one of them tonight, one of the original street cars brought over by Christopher Columbus. They are still operating right here in Ottawa. If we are going to look after historic sites, then I believe in looking after the ones we have right here.
I do not wish to speak longer, because I would like to see the bill go through before ten o'clock. I am going out to British Columbia on Wednesday, and I want to be able to tell the people of Hope that they are not going to be insulted by having only $40 a year paid to care for a memorial, and at a time when Ottawa is surrounded by monuments to the dead and to the living. The monuments to the dead are all around the building, maintained at great expense, while the living are being looked after by the taxpayers of Ottawa.
I am serious about this. I ask the minister to give a reasonable amount to pay for looking after these historic sites, and not to insult the people in British Columbia, particularly those in the Fraser valley, by offering only $40 a year to look after an historic monument.
(Translation) :


Mr. Wilfrid LaCroix (Quebec-Monlmo-rency):: Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, the best way to preserve these relics of the past which will be for growing generations undying memorials, is to contribute to the preservation in our historic sites of these old houses, old sections, such as the fortified walls of Quebec, for example. Let us remember these immortal verses of the poet who said once:

Historic Sites and Monuments
Voulez-vous qu'une tour, voulez-vous qu'une

Soient des monuments dont l'ame idealise A Ja fois la forme et la hauteur,
Attendez que de mousse elles soient revetues Et laissez travailler a toutes les statues Le temps, ce grand sculpteur.
Mr. Speaker, we have in the old city of Quebec, symbolized in the maze of our streets, an epic of our history. The old city of Quebec was the first to be founded on this North American continent. I am myself a member of the Quebec town planning commission and whenever a problem relating to the preservation of an historical monument arises, we are faced with the following question:	Where will we find the money to
preserve it? Where will we find the money to restore it, to compensate the owner? Where, finally, can we find what is needed to ensure that this building retains its historical appeal?
I congratulate the Minister of Resources and Development (Mr. Winters) who has seen to the setting up of this board. I wonder though if it would not be possible for this board, set up by the federal government, to co-operate effectively with the similar boards already set up in our municipalities. In this way Quebec may be ensured this perpetual reminder of its historical landmarks and the rising generations, as well as the tourists who visit this country, will therefore see how we respect these old stones which, in every case, mark a passing stage in our history.
In my capacity as a member of the Quebec town planning commission I have often noticed how commercialized vandalism had invaded our old city, at certain times, so as to satisfy the claims of an exaggerated materialism. In each case we have always been unable, for lack of money, to find a solution to this problem.
I know that the hon. minister is well disposed towards the old province of Quebec and I presume that his enlightened patriotism will enable him to find some means of ensuring the survival of the local boards which were created in order to preserve these old houses of ours. He will thus contribute to the maintenance in Quebec of a group of historical monuments, an action for which the province of Quebec will be grateful.
(Text):


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Mr.   Baier@: I wish to adjourn the debate.


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Speaker, I appeal to the house. This legislation is to put in

statute form what has existed for about 25 years. We have had a commission looking after historic sites; and the government thought in its wisdom, and I thought myself, that we should put this in statutory form. There is nothing new in it. We have had some very nice speeches. I applauded most of them, and enjoyed all of them. Why could we not pass this bill tonight?


George Alexander Drew: Yes, I think so.


Mr.   Baier@: Then I shall withdraw, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
Sections 1, 2 and 3 agreed to.
On section 4-Board established.
Mr. Churchill:: I wish to say a word or two with regard to this section, as I have been waiting most patiently listening to some of the very interesting speeches that have been made. I am concerned with the actual functioning of this board, and I think the attention of the committee should be directed to the fact that not all the recommendations of the Massey commission have been carried into effect in drawing up this bill. There has been one major omission and one addition which I should like to query and ask the minister to comment upon.
This section provides that the chief curator of the national museum of Canada shall be a member of the board. I question very much the necessity of that provision, which was not a recommendation of the Massey commission. I do not see any connection between the national museum and the historic sites and monuments board. It is not a question of personalities at all, or who happens to be the chief curator of the national museum at the present time, or who may hold that position in the future. I repeat that there is really no connection between that position and the work of the historic sites and monuments board.
In fact if the recommendations of the Massey commission are carried out with regard to the national museum there will be more than sufficient work for the curator of that museum to attend to without having any additional burden placed upon his shoulders as provided for in this bill. The objectionable feature is that it creates a statutory obligation upon the chief curator of the national museum to attend meetings of the historic sites and monuments board and have placed

upon his shoulders responsibilities connected with the work of that board. As the Massey commission points out, the national museum will be concerned with such matters as geology, botany, zoology and natural history, all of which have nothing particularly to do with historic sites and monuments. I shall not deal further with that point.
My second comment is that the Massey commission recommended that two members of this board be nominated by the Canadian historical association, and I quote from page 348 of the report as follows:
Two members to be nominated by the council of the Canadian historical association, similarly for five-year terms and similarly eligible for reappointment for one further term.
I think there is a great deal of merit in that recommendation, for several reasons. The present and future members of the board may be either professional historians, if I may use that term, or amateur historians, as are many members of the House of Commons. They may very well be people who are keenly interested in the history of Canada. On the other hand, from time to time the membership of the board may comprise those who have not an adequate knowledge of the history of Canada, such as obviously is in the possession of the members of the council of the Canadian historical association. I think it would be most useful to have, as has been suggested, two members of that association appointed to this board. It would have value in that you would have on the board competent and trained historians. It would have value in that the Canadian historical association would have a continuing interest in the functioning of the board, and at its annual meetings or on other occasions would presumably have reports from the members of this board and would give close attention to what the historic sites and monuments board was doing.
I think it is in the general interest of this board and of Canadians that there should be wide interest throughout Canada in the work of this historic sites and monuments board, and that can be provided by members of the council of the Canadian historical association who are trained historians and have a background connected with this work.
I would imagine that if it were given the privilege to do so, this organization would from time to time appoint to the board men of outstanding qualities and with special interest in historic sites and monuments. Those are the two things I wanted to draw to the attention of the minister and I would appreciate his comments.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, very briefly may I say that the national museum has an
30, 1953	3445
Historic Sites and Monuments archaeology section which is concerned with the excavation of historic sites in many parts of Canada, including some outstanding ones now being made on Manitoulin island. It seemed important to the members of the historic sites and monuments board, to myself and to the government that the curator of the national museum, which is responsible for archaeological work on behalf of the federal government, should be a member of this historic sites and monuments board.
I think the recommendation that there should be members of the Canadian historical association on this board is a good one, and for the information of hon. members I would say that most members of the board are also members of the historical association of Canada and therefore almost all of them meet the qualifications set forth by the hon. member in his remarks to the committee.


Gordon Minto Churchill: Although they may be members of the Canadian historical association, I suggest that if that association had the responsibility of nominating two members on its own account instead of its being done by the governor in council you might get a more satisfactory result.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 5 to 9 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported.
Robert Henry Winters: the third reading of the bill.


Stanley Howard Knowles: By leave.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we shall take up the third reading of Bill No. 107, to amend the Post Office Act; then Bill No. 225, to amend the Excise Tax Act; then Bill No. 230, to provide for the government of the Yukon Territory; then Bill No. 109, to authorize the grant of assistance to a province for the conservation of water resources; then Bill No. 293, to implement the international convention for the high seas fisheries of the North Pacific ocean; then Bill No. 37, to amend the Indian Act; then Bill No. 190, to amend the Canadian Citizenship Act. If we have time we would like to pass the resolution respecting the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act.


[Stage Direction]
It being ten minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Tuesday, March 31, 1953