1952-06-05

[Stage Direction]
Fourth report of the standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Cleaver.
Fifth and sixth reports of the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.- Mr. Winkler.

Hon. F. G. Bradley (Secretary of State) moved:: That the report of the civil service commission respecting a certain employee of the House of Commons, tabled on June 4, 1952, be approved.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Charlton:: 1.	Has any decision been made by the government to close the animal diseases research laboratory at Hull, Quebec?
2.	If so, where will the work now being done at the Hull laboratory be carried on?
3.	Has any offer been made to or discussions held with any officials of the government by any persons or organizations relative to the purchase of this property?
4.	If so, when and by whom?


Mr. Winters:: 1.	No. A reference to the fact that research work on foot-and-mouth disease has been transferred to an island in the St. Lawrence river, where some other highly contagious animal diseases are also under investigation, was evidently interpreted to mean that the Hull laboratory would be closed. This is not the case. Normal animal disease research work is continuing at the Hull laboratory.
2,	3 and 4. Answered by No. 1.



POSTAGE STAMPS


Mr. Brown (Essex West):: 1.	Has the postal department a committee of experts to advise in the selection of designs for postage stamps?
2.	If so, who comprise this committee, what are their names and addresses and the respective dates on which each was appointed to the committee?
3.	How often has the committee met within the past year?
4.	Have the designs of all postage stamps issued in the past year been approved by such committee?
5.	If not, who has approved the design of each postage stamp issued in the past year?


Mr. Cote (St. Jean-Iberville-Napierville):: 1, 2, 3 and 4. See answer to No. 5.
5. Eight new postage stamp issues were released during the year. Of the eight issues, the following seven were approved by responsible departmental officials:
3-cent Prime Minister Robert L. Borden, commemorative issue.
4-cent Prime Minister W. L. Mackenzie King, commemorative issue.
4-	cent postal centennial, commemorative issue.
5-	cent postal centennial, commemorative issue.
7-cent postal centennial, commemorative issue.
15-cent postal centennial, commemorative issue.
4-cent royal visit, commemorative issue.
The eighth postage issue, the 20-cen "Forestry Products", ordinary issue, wa: recommended for artistic quality by a selee tion committee appointed in November, 1950 to review designs received as a result of at invitation issued to Canadian artists. Thi committee included the following:
Rt. Hon. Vincent Massey, P.C., C.H., Chair man; Professor Charles F. Comfort, R.C.A. Toronto; Professor Arthur Gladu, Montreal.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	What reports have been received to date fron the dominion-provincial board, Fraser river basin appointed to study the question of flood control power development and irrigation, and relatec problems, on the Fraser river system?
2.	What progress has been made to date in thi; study, and what is, in general, the present positioi with regard to the work of this board?


BEACH INDUSTRIES LIMITED, SMITHS FALLS-GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS
Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):: 1. Have contracts been placed by any departmen of government, and in what amounts, since January 1, 1950, with Beach Industries Limited, Smith Falls, Ontario?

Inquiries of the Ministry
2.	If so, is there a fair wage clause in the contracts, and what is the clause?
3.	What are the prevailing wage rates in the
area?
4.	What are the fair wage rates set for the area by the Department of Labour?



TAX AGREEMENTS


Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to present a measure to authorize (a) the Minister of Finance, on behalf of the government of Canada, to enter into agreements with the governments of the provinces to provide inter alia, subject to terms and conditions to be agreed upon, that in consideration of the said governments agreeing not to levy income tax, corporation income tax, corporation tax or succession duties for a period of five years or any lesser period the government of Canada will pay compensation to the said governments; and (b) the Minister of Finance to pay to the government of each province one-half of the income tax collected from corporations whose main business is the distribution to or generation for distribution to the public, of electrical energy, gas or steam in respect of income of the corporations derived from the said distribution or generation in that province during the period commencing on January 1, 1952, and ending on December 31, 1956.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gordon Graydon (Peel):: Would the Minister of Defence Production care to comment upon the possible effects of the strike in the United States steel industry upon our own defence effort here in Canada?


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Defence Production):: Mr. Speaker, the effect upon Canada will depend entirely on the duration of the strike. Our stocks are reasonably adequate for the immediate future and if the strike is settled in the next two or three weeks the effect may not be serious. There will be some effect on individual situations where steel that is on order with United States mills cannot come forward.
One of the more serious effects may be in connection with the movement of iron ore. As hon. members know, all the iron ore mines in the United States have been closed down along with the steel plants. This is the season of maximum water movement for iron ore and there may be repercussions as to delivery
[Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North).!
of quantities required by our steel plants, although it may be possible to divert certain iron ore from Canadian mines to Canadian steel plants for the time being.
All I can say is that it would be most unwise at this time to plan new projects using steel, but we are hopeful that the situation will be clarified in time to avoid any serious effect on construction now in progress.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. J. J. McCann (Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart) asked the following question:
Does the announcement of a coast-to-coast hookup by private radio stations next Monday imply any change of policy on the part of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?
The answer is that there has been no change in policy. Monday is a special event on account of the queen's birthday. A few more private stations are being added to the dominion network, thereby constituting a hook-up of private stations. The dominion network is made up of thirty-one stations, one C.B.C. and thirty private stations.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Robinson in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND DEVELOPMENT

[Stage Direction]
Engineering and water resources branch-
396. To provide for surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks, $500,000.
Mr. Black (Cumberland):: This is a rather large appropriation and I should like to know what surveys are being made in the Nova Scotia Highlands park and what paving work has been done or is contemplated.


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Resources and Development):: This vote covers construction and surveys of the route of the trans-Canada highway through the national parks. The trans-Canada highway does not go through the Cape Breton Highlands national park and therefore none of this money will be spent there. The last time the estimates were before the committee, in reply to a question by the hon. member for Calgary East I gave a break-down of the estimated expenditures for construction of the trans-Canada highway in Banff national park.


Percy Chapman Black: Is it intended to construct branches of the trans-Canada highway to serve the different national parks in Canada?


Robert Henry Winters: No.


Percy Chapman Black: I would like to have the minister supplement some information which he gave on Monday night. There is an appropriation of $15 million to provide for contributions to provinces under the Trans-Canada Highway Act and I notice on page 2838 of Hansard of Monday-


The Deputy Chairman:: I am unable to hear the hon. member distinctly, but I understand that the matter to which he is referring has been disposed of.


Percy Chapman Black: I do not think it has because it is not a vote. I was referring to the statutory grant of $15 million. If we did not get the information we wanted the other -night I think we are entitled to have it now and I think the minister is prepared to give it.


Mr. Benidickson:: What item are we dealing with?


William Alfred Robinson: Item 396.


Percy Chapman Black: There is a
statutory vote of $15 million.


William Alfred Robinson: I am sorry to
interrupt the hon. member but he is referring to a statutory vote and we are now considering item 396.


Percy Chapman Black: The statutory vote of $15 million is not a regular vote; it goes through whether this committee votes this item or not. I am asking the minister to tell us how much of that appropriation is being allocated to the province of Nova Scotia. I do not think the minister will have any objection to telling us that.


William Moore Benidickson: That was carried on the previous day, Mr. Chairman.


Mr. Casselman:: Do you want to make any headway or don't you?


Mr. Johnston:: We cannot hear what is being said, and I do not know whether we are on item 395 or 396.


William Alfred Robinson: Item 395 was carried on the previous day. Item 396 has just been carried.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. McLure:: I asked a question with reference to item 396 the other night. The minister was not prepared to answer fully at that time. He has partly answered it today and his answer is different from the one 55704-184
5,	1952
Supply-Resources and Development he gave me then. Item 396 is to provide for surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks. I asked a question about the survey from North Rustico harbour across to Robinsons island and then down to Dalvay, all in the national park.


Robert Henry Winters: That is not on the trans-Canada highway. I would be glad to discuss it on another occasion or privately with the hon. member but it cannot be discussed under this vote, the purpose of which is to provide for surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks. The road to which my hon. friend refers is not a part of the trans-Canada highway.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The road to Dalvay is a part of the national park.


Robert Henry Winters: It is not a part of the trans-Canada highway. That is the point.


Gordon Graydon: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I have been listening to what the hon. member for Cumberland said, and it seems to me that when we have an amount of $15 million under a statutory item surely a member has a right to ask what part of that has been provided for the province from which he comes. Surely we cannot just put statutory items in the estimates and then say to hon. members that they cannot discuss them.


Robert Henry Winters: It was discussed.


Gordon Graydon: It is not a part of item 395 because, as you will see at once, item 395 calls for a vote of $424,785. The next item, which is statutory, and concerning which the hon. member was making an inquiry, is an amount of $15 million. I think that point ought to be cleared up because in my opinion certainly an amount of $15 million should at least be subject to inquiry. I cannot see how the hon. member for Cumberland is out of order in any way. I think you ought to allow him, Mr. Chairman, to make a complete inquiry.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not want hon. members to get the impression that we have not had a discussion of that particular item. We did have the last time the estimates were before the house.


Gordon Graydon: But not on the statutory item.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, on the statutory item. Now we are dealing with item 396. However, if the chairman and hon. members of the committee wish me to refer particularly to the question asked I will be glad to do so, but we are not on the item and it is not covered under the item we are on now.
2920	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development


William Alfred Robinson: Order. In view of the fact that the minister has explained that a previous discussion took place on a.n item which has already been passed, I do not think I can allow a discussion at this time under item 396 of this particular subject unless it is by the unanimous consent of the house.


Mr. Harkness:: On that particular point, I may say that I asked certain questions under item 395 with respect to this amount of $15 million. When item 395 was called I asked questions about the $15 million, but actually the statutory item of $15 million has never been called. Before some hon. members had an opportunity to ask questions that they wanted to about the $15 million item 395 was passed and then item 396 was immediately called. In other words, the item of $15 million was never called. The only questioning with respect to it, and it was comparatively short, was on item 395.


Mr. Fair:: I had intended to ask the minister a question also with regard to the $15 million. We in a certain part of the prairie provinces have been deprived of the benefit of the trans-Canada highway. It has been suggested now that for defence purposes some grant might be made by the dominion government so that the Yellowhead pass route could also be improved to some extent. We are not asking at this time that it be made a paved highway but we would like to have some money spent on it for defence and other purposes so that we might receive some benefit from federal assistance. Other parties concerned in that part of the country are willing to do a certain amount of work but they do not feel they should be expected to do it alone. I should like to have the minister tell us whether he has had that matter under consideration and if so what his decision is.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I think we should first decide which item we are discussing now.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Item 396.


Robert Henry Winters: If we are discussing item 396, then I say again that this provides for surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks. If my hon. friend is referring to that portion of the proposed Yellowhead route through national parks, then I can answer by saying that there has been no agreement with the provincial government of Alberta to co-operate with respect to the building of that highway.


Robert Fair: Would the minister give consideration to requests that have been made by different organizations, particularly the one interested in the Yellowhead pass route? Would he give consideration to the request by that body for some financial assistance so


that additional work may be done on the Yellowhead route?


Robert Henry Winters: That matter has already been given consideration but the trans-Canada highway route has been chosen by the provincial governments. There is only one trans-Canada highway being built at the present time, and it goes through Calgary in the province of Alberta. At the present moment we are not contributing toward any other trans-Canada highway.


Robert Fair: I wonder whether the people who made the decision have realized yet that they have made a grave mistake. I wonder if they recognize that they have made a mistake.


An hon. Member:: What about your government out there?


Robert Fair: I think they should rectify the mistake and build the highway along the northern route.


Mr. Ferguson:: I should like to make sure that the minister does everything in his power so far as his department is concerned to get ahead with the job and build the trans-Canada highway without the delay that has characterized both Liberal and Conservative administrations in the past.


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: You are not
referring to Quebec, are you?


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: The building of the highway is of vital importance to a growing country and all the municipalities within reach of the highway. The highway will help in the absorbing of much needed immigration in this country and be of benefit to all Canada. I certainly urge that the minister should not be picayune about the matter and pay starvation wages. Let him get on with the job and get the trans-Canada highway finished instead of puttering around, as Liberal and Conservative governments have done in the past. In thirty years only four or five miles of road were built.


Charles Edward Johnston: There has been a general discussion in the last few minutes with respect to this item. The minister will recall that the other day I had some questions on the order paper regarding the construction of the trans-Canada highway which he answered. It was very revealing to find that in the province of Ontario there has not been a solitary mile completed according to the federal government's standards of road construction. That is not a very good sign of progress. I realize that my question only referred to the province of Ontario but I expect a great many other provinces are in exactly the same position.


Mr. Noseworthy:: The Ontario Conservatives are not progressive.


Charles Edward Johnston: It does seem to me there should be a more concerted effort to extend new construction on the trans-Canada highway so that there will at least be some hope that within the seven-year period that is the life of the contract the trans-Canada highway will be completed. If I were a gambling man, which I am not-


William Alfred Robinson: Order. I have
already indicated that item 396 only deals with surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks. I would ask the hon. member to limit his discussion to that.


William Moore Benidickson: I think I owe an apology to the house in that when the hon. member for Cumberland rose I felt he was addressing the house on item 396 and I objected thinking that item 395 (S) had already carried.


Percy Chapman Black: It did not carry because it is a statutory vote.


William Moore Benidickson: It certainly was not
carried at the last meeting of the committee.
I just wanted to apologize to the hon. member and say that there was a substantial item on which I felt that he probably now is entitled to speak. I regret I challenged the item of only $425,000 which was carried.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have not finished with what I was speaking about a moment ago.


Some hon. Members:: You are out of order.


William Alfred Robinson: The hon. member for Bow River.


Charles Edward Johnston: I was discussing the trans-Canada highway and I just got up to national parks.


Mr. Dickey:: It took you some time.


Charles Edward Johnston: There is one point about the survey and construction of the trans-Canada highway in Banff national park. Last year, if I recall correctly, when this estimate was up there was a considerable amount of money spent on survey and construction in national parks. On that occasion the minister did indicate that the amount of money which was to have been spent last year would complete the survey in Banff national park. I think he even went so far as to express the hope that by this year it would be fairly well under way.
I would like to ask the minister just how much of that road in Banff national park has been completed and how much has even been started. I refer there to new construction of a road which when constructed will meet the requirements of the federal government.
I have travelled through that area on many occasions. Last summer I was through twice
55704-184|
5, 1952	2921
Supply-Resources and Development and, apart from a little survey work and some *construction work, not a great deal of progress has been made. I am not saying there was not some work done, but as far as actual mileage of construction is concerned very little is being done. When I say that, there is very little actual construction being done at all in the province of Alberta, and if the western provinces ever hope to have a trans-Canada highway things will have to develop more rapidly.
When that highway is completed through Banff national park and the other national parks, is it the intention of the government to permit highway transport to travel through those national parks just as it will be entitled to travel on other parts of the trans-Canada highway?


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item
carry?


Charles Edward Johnston: No.


Robert Henry Winters: I think the best answer I can give the hon. member is that which may be found in Hansard on page 2839. It is the same answer I gave on June 2 to the hon. member for Calgary East about construction in Banff national park. In respect to the last question I think I informed the hon. member, when these estimates were in the house either last year or the year before, that it was the intention to let commercial traffic flow over the trans-Canada highway through national parks.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item
carry?


Percy Chapman Black: I have to speak here until we get the other matter adjusted.
I noticed in Hansard, when the minister's estimates were up, item 395 for $424,785 was discussed and then we proceeded to item 396, $500,000, which is the item we have been discussing now. We apparently jumped over the appropriation, which is a statutory appropriation of $15 million.
I have been asking for certain information respecting the distribution of that appropriation. I feel the house is entitled and I am entitled to it. I have special reference^ to Nova Scotia. I also feel that the minister is the one to give me that information. The only way I can get it is when his estimates are before the house.
There is a statutory appropriation of $15 million and I want to know how that is distributed. The minister gave certain information on the last occasion when these estimates were up, but no reference was made to the province of Nova Scotia. When I add it up, $14,701,000 has been distributed but the province of Nova Scotia is not mentioned.
2922	HOUSE OF
Supply

Resources and Development I want to know how much of this large sum is made available for the construction of the trans-Canada highway in Nova Scotia. As a member of this house I am entitled to that and I would like to have it.
The Depuiy Chairman: Order. The hon. member has referred to item 395 as being passed, and he has also referred to item 395 (S) as not having been called. I would draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that item 395 (S) is a statutory item which is not called and any discussion on that item should have taken place in general discussion on the first section of these estimates. Therefore, I must rule that we must limit ourselves under item 396 to the subject:
To provide for surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks.
If the hon. member has the unanimous consent of the committee to ask this question or should his question involve moneys under this vote which would be used for the trans-Canada highways through national parks, then the question would be in order. Otherwise I do not think the question should be asked at this time.


Percy Chapman Black: I gather from what the chairman says that he refuses to give permission on his own unless I get the unanimous consent of the committee.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member had been here on Friday, and I regret that he was unable to be here, he would have been able to participate in the very good discussion we had at that time. The answers to the questions he asked, except for Nova Scotia, are to be found in replies to the questions by the hon. member for Calgary East at page 2838, and in reply to questions by the hon. member for Fraser Valley at page 2839.
The hon. member will recall that Nova Scotia entered into the agreement with respect to the trans-Canada- highway only recently. They entered into the agreement after the estimates were prepared and there is no specific allocation in this $15 million for Nova Scotia. That does not mean to say their program will not be able to proceed. They have not yet submitted a program but I presume they will do so shortly. If and when they do, and I do not think we need to be too much concerned about the "if" because I am sure they will, the necessary funds will be asked of parliament by way of a supplementary vote-unless there are sufficient funds in this vote to cover federal government participation.


Percy Chapman Black: Mr. Chairman, the explanation by the minister is satisfactory to 

me, but I would like to know what appropriation will be made. I want to point out to the minister and the committee that Nova Scotia did not enter into this agreement for the first three years. The agreement they do enter into must be completed within the regulation period of seven years, which will mean there will only be four and a half years left to run. I would presume that the province of Nova Scotia would want a very substantial appropriation this year, and if I get the assurance of the minister that any appropriation that is required will be provided in order to build the trans-Canada highway through Nova Scotia that will be satisfactory. I presume there would have to be at least $3 million earmarked for that province this year.


Robert Henry Winters: The funds will be available, Mr. Chairman.


Percy Chapman Black: The $3 million will be available.


Mr. Murphy:: No, he said funds will be available.


Percy Chapman Black: I understood him to say that the $3 million would be available. However, the required funds will be available, and that means if the province hesitates to proceed with the construction no funds will be called for and none will be required.
I do not want to take from the minister's reply that the province is not going to make application for a substantial appropriation in order to proceed with that work.
I should also like the minister to inform me whether a proportionate amount of the total vote of $150 million will be made available before the completion of the contract for the total requirements in Nova Scotia. It would seem that that province would require a much more substantial appropriation and construction program than if they had started two or three years ago at the beginning of the program.


Robert Henry Winters: I can assure the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, that funds will be available under the Trans-Canada Highway Act to pay the federal government's share of the trans-Canada highway program in Nova Scotia, on any basis on which the province wishes to proceed within the terms of the act.


Percy Chapman Black: That is quite satisfactory, Mr. Chairman. Will the minister state whether there will have to be a supplementary vote. The $15 million, which is a statutory vote, being provided this year is practically all taken up by the other provinces. If an additional $3 million is required for the work in Nova Scotia, will that mean that a supplementary estimate will have to come before this house?


Robert Henry Winters: It may be, Mr. Chairman, and it may not. It depends on how fast the other provincial governments get on with their work and require the use of these funds. I again assure the hon. member that moneys, under the terms of the act, will not be a stumbling block in the way of Nova Scotia's progress.


Percy Chapman Black: Then I understand from the minister that no definite construction program has yet been submitted by Nova Scotia?


Robert Henry Winters: That is righit.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Northern administration and lands branch-
399. Lands division-administration of territorial and public lands; seed grain collections, $301,629.
Douglas Scott Harkness: I see that this item deals with the administration of the territorial and public lands and seed grain collections for the Northwest Territories. What are those seed grain collections?


Robert Henry Winters: Seed grain collections are with respect to advances made by the federal government a considerable number of years ago to provide seed grain in three western provinces, not for the Northwest Territories.


Douglas Scott Harkness: This is an ancient business, and you have not collected this money although the business was transacted twenty years ago.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right, but it is being collected. We are making some progress in making collections, but the outstanding indebtedness has not yet been written off.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Is this money being collected from individuals or the three prairie provinces?


Robert Henry Winters: From individuals.


Douglas Scott Harkness: What is the amount still outstanding?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount still outstanding is $4,973,625.25.


Douglas Scott Harkness: How much was collected last year?


Robert Henry Winters: The total amount collected last year was $49,725.30.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Has the minister any figures to give us to show how much of the total vote went to collect this $49,000? It would seem a very small amount to have collected on a debt of nearly $5 million. It might be that the cost of collection was greater than the amount collected.


Robert Henry Winters: The amount for that purpose was about $15,000, Mr. Chairman.
5, 1S52	2923
Supply-Resources and Development


Mr. Wylie:: In what year was that seed grain distributed to, these farmers?


Robert Henry Winters: The distributions were made between the years 1886 and 1926.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: May I ask the amount of principal and interest on these debts?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount of principal owing is $1,767,618.10. The amount of interest is $3,206,307.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Requests have been made in this house on various occasions to the Minister of Trade and Commerce to have these old seed grain liens cancelled. They are nothing but a nuisance. It is costing the government a lot of money to handle them, much more money than they are receiving from the old liens being paid. In view of the fact that the three provincial governments, Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan, have cancelled all their old seed grain liens, it seems to me thal it is only fair that the dominion government should cancel theirs.
I have handled many of these cases, and I know what they mean. In one case the amount of the principal was $60, while the interest amounted to about $160. A settlement was made for slightly more than the principal, after about half a dozen letters had been written back and forth. It does seem to me that a large staff is required to handle these accounts. I believe the government would be well advised to do as the three western provinces did, and that is to cancel all of these old seed grain liens.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Is the minister going to saj anything about the remarks which have jusl been made?


Robert Henry Winters: That is a problem that ha: come up in connection with a variety oi items in this house. There are a great manj people who have received benefits from thi: distribution who have paid off their indebtedness over the years. There are a great manj other people who are anxious to pay of their indebtedness, and who are making ar honest effort to do so. There are instances ir which the titles to the lands have become so obscure that the original indebtednes; cannot be traced. For that reason, and i variety of other reasons, there has been i write-off. I can inform the hon. member tha there is a very sympathetic administration oi this phase of our activity.


Mr. Bryce:: Can the minister tell us hov much it has cost to administer this?


Robert Henry Winters: A moment ago I said that las year the cost of administration was abou $15,000.
2924	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development


William Scottie Bryce: It would be good business to cancel the debt.


Robert Henry Winters: We collected $49,000.


Robert Fair: I think this is one case where the government could save a little money by not going back to the last century to try to collect some of these debts. It is poor business. These amounts might be put in with the watered stock of the Canadian National Railways, and the whole thing could be written off. It is long past the time when this matter should be attended to so that we could have an honest statement of the account.


Mr. Lennard:: How are these collections made? Are payments made from the collections on a percentage basis?


Robert Henry Winters: The people concerned apply for a discharge of the liens against the property, and then a settlement is made directly with the Department of Resources and Development.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Before we leave this item I must say that any time I have taken this matter up with the officials in Ottawa they rave always given careful consideration to ;he standing of the parties who want to pay aff the debt. In the southern part of the province, where most of these debts are outstanding, it was a dried out area, and that seed 'rain was given in years when the people did aot have any money to buy it; otherwise they would have bought it themselves. The fact ,s that the department has been exceedingly 'air in connection with any cases that I have wrought to their attention, and we get good settlements. But it seems to me, as I have said before, that it is time that all of this debt was written off so that we do not have to lother with it.


Joseph Warner Murphy: The minister mentioned col-ecting some $49,000. I was wondering whether that was a percentage of what was swing; and if so, what was the amount swing?


Robert Henry Winters: I gave the total amount owing.


Joseph Warner Murphy: What I mean is this. Was :he amount you have collected a percentage )f the amount owing?


Robert Henry Winters: No. It does not bear any per-:entage relationship to the amount which is itill outstanding.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I wanted the minister to darify that point. I was wondering whether mu made a settlement on this basis: Suppose he amount owing was $200,000 or a quarter )f a million dollars. I wondered whether you ;ettled for $49,000. Was that the case?


Robert Henry Winters: No. That is not the nature if the settlement.


Frank Exton Lennard: What was the amount owing in connection with that $49,000 that was collected?


Robert Henry Winters: I do not have those figures before me now. I can get them and give them to the hon. member.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Looking at the details at page 455, under this item, I see an expenditure for advertising of $4,100. Last year the amount was $3,000 which was appropriated. I wonder whether the minister can tell us what type of advertising that is and why it was necessary to do this advertising with regard to this northern administration and lands branch?


Robert Henry Winters: It has mostly to do with oil leases and other administration of minerals in the north: calling for tenders, advertising and that sort of thing.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Can the minister tell us whether the $3,000 was required or whether more than $3,000 was required for that purpose last year?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount actually
expended last year was $3,788.75 and the balance had to be arranged by transfer between votes.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Can the minister tell us where those advertisements are published? Is it in the daily papers right across Canada or chiefly in the provinces of Alberta and British Columbia? I refer to the advertisements calling for tenders for these public lands.


Robert Henry Winters: It is usually in the area in which the sale of the land takes place. For the oil leases it is usually confined more especially to the province of Alberta; but they are advertised as widely as possible. If we sell land in the province of Ontario-I refer to crown land-it is advertised more particularly in the province of Ontario. I think it is fair to say that the advertising is greatest in the area in which the transaction takes place, but that we try to make it as generally known as possible.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I do not quite understand the minister's reference to the sale of crown lands in Ontario. Does this not apply only to the land in the Northwest Territories? The advertising he was talking about would be advertising for oil leases and so forth in the Northwest Territories, as I understand it.


Robert Henry Winters: This branch also administers the Public Lands Grants Act, and the department is authorized to hold public lands under that act. Occasionally they are sold; and when they are sold they are advertised for sale by tender.


Douglas Scott Harkness: What sort of public lands would that be in the province of Ontario?


Robert Henry Winters: Largely the old ordnance
and admiralty lands which have been transferred to this department for administration and disposal.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Northern administration and lands branch-
407.	Grant to the Arctic Institute of North America, $5,000.
Percy Chapman Black: Mr. Chairman,
before all these items carry in such a hurry, I think we should have from the minister a statement as to what work is being carried on and what is projected in these northern areas.


Robert Henry Winters: Which vote are we on, Mr. Chairman? Is it item 407?


William Alfred Robinson: We are on item 407.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


William Alfred Robinson: Is item 407 carried?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


William Alfred Robinson: Item 408.


Mr. Adamson:: I want to speak on item 408.


William Alfred Robinson: The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre on item 408.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I want to speak on that item.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I think that the hon. member for Cumberland asked me for an explanation as to what we are doing under vote 407, or was it 408?


Percy Chapman Black: Mr. Chairman,
some of these items were passed without any discussion at all. I thought it would be well for the committee to have from the minister a statement as to just what work is under way in these northern districts.


Robert Henry Winters: It would take me some considerable time to give a statement on the activities in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. I notice that we have passed most of the votes under which I could appropriately do that. If the hon. member has any particular questions that can be asked under any of the votes with which we are dealing now, I will, of course, be glad to deal with them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forestry branch-
408.	Branch administration, $132,885.
Mr. Knowles:: Under this item may I
remind the minister of previous discussions we have had with regard to the possibility of his research people in the forestry branch
5, 1952	2925
Supply-Resources and Development looking into the problem of tailor-made cigarettes as a forest fire hazard as well as i fire hazard generally. The minister knows that I have brought this matter to his attention on a number of occasions in the past and I believe it is fair to him to say that he has indicated that it was a matter that mighl be looked into by the research people in his department.
There is no doubt that tailor-made cigarettes are a greater fire hazard than are the other kind. I realize that the tobaccc manufacturing people take issue with thal statement; indeed they have written to me on various occasions after I have raised the matter in the house, but not very convincingly. Indeed, I think the evidence is incontrovertible. It is not necessary to take the time to give the minister again some o: the information that I have given him or previous occasions. On one occasion I tolc him of an experiment that I had one of mj friends conduct, since I do not use cigarette: myself. It was really quite clear that i tailor-made cigarette, once it has been li and has been left lying around anywhere continues to burn until it is completely con sumed whereas the roll-your-own kind tenc to go out right away. It could be that th< rolling has something to do with it, but mos people are agreed that in tailor-mad( cigarettes there is also something either ii the paper or in the tobacco itself that make: them burn easier.
As a matter of fact, on a Saturday night i week or two ago, when the house was no sitting, I went to a show in Ottawa, arrivin'; there at a time when I had to stand in line The minister had visited the first show because as I was going in I met him comin, out. While standing in line there on Elgh street I just happened to notice-


Mr. Fleming:: This was not David am Bathsheba, was it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No; I forget which show i was, but that does not matter.


Mr. Gibson:: It was educational.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No, it was recreational.


Mr. Riley:: Perhaps it was inspirational.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I noticed that a passenge in a car going along Elgin street tossed lighted cigarette butt out the window, so tha it landed in the middle of the pavement. I: the next few moments four or five cars passed in either direction, and the draft created b; those cars: in passing moved the cigarett butt back and forth across the street, unti eventually it landed in the gutter near th sidewalk where I was standing. It was stil burning.
2926	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development


Daniel Aloysius Riley: Did you pick it up?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Hon. members may think I lave some vices, but they know that smoking s not one of them. Standing there, waiting io get into the show, was just one other jccasion when it was drawn to my attention hat factory-made cigarettes seem to be made n such a way that they burn until completely :onsumecL There can be no doubt that many )f the fires in our forests, in our homes and n other places, could be prevented if we had egislation respecting the making of these dgarettes* which would require that they ie less inflammable than they are.
I bring this matter to the attention of the ninister because it is related to the subject )f forest preservation, and because on other iccasions I have asked the minister whether :ome research into this matter might be :arried out by the research officials in his iepartment. Has such research been made? f so, what have been the results?


Robert Henry Winters: To the best of my knowledge 10 such research has been carried out. I am iware that the hon. member raises this point ;ach year, and I would hope that the mere 'act that he raises it will emphasize for the lenefit of cigarette smokers and manufac-urers the real hazard the cigarette can be in :onnection with the creation of forest fires.
There is of course a wide variety of ways n which forest fires can be started, and I vould have no doubt that cigarettes play a imminent role. In the Department of Resources and Development, through various nedia including advertising, posters, films, tnd by other means available to us, we try o make the general public aware of fire lazards, and to create in the minds of smokers tn awareness of the danger. But, as for Loing actual research on the problem, I can-lot say that I know of any development.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I still urge the minister to lave some research done in this matter. I ippreciate his point, that it is well to raise he matter from time to time in the hope hat both smokers and manufacturers will [DOT]ealize the importance of exercising due care ind precaution. But that is not sufficient. There was a day when matches were more langerous than they are now. In those days t was hoped that the users of matches would ie more careful; but a time was reached vhen it was realized that legislation was [DOT]equired to make matches as safe as possible.
I suggest there is a parallel in this case, tnd that the time has come when not only ihould we urge smokers, through posters, tickers, film shorts and the like, to put out :igarettes, but when we may have to con-:ider legislation with respect to ways in


which cigarettes themselves are made. The minister knows that the fire marshals in this country have been interested in the matter and have passed resolutions in connection with it. I strongly urge the minister to have his research people give attention to this problem.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I would bring to the attention of the minister a matter which I believe comes under this vote for the forestry branch. It has been said that the greatest menace to the human race today is not war, communism, pestilence or atomic energy, but rather soil erosion. The amount of soil erosion now taking place in Canada, despite the efforts being made to prevent it, has reached an extremely dangerous level. I have not the figures here, but I know many hundreds of thousands of acres of good land are destroyed each year by soil erosion and lost for all time.
One of the chief reasons for the erosion is the destruction of forest cover. I was horrified to learn the other day that in Ontario hardwood forests have been depleted to such an extent that Ontario hardwoods for floors and other purposes will virtually disappear in a comparatively few years, and that such things as hardwood floors and other types of hardwood construction will be almost a thing of the past at the end of another decade.
It has been estimated that to maintain settled land in balance a forest coverage to the extent of 14 per cent of the land is necessary. I understand that in the settled or farming portion of Ontario-and in this I do not include the northern forest area, but rather what has been known as old Ontario-there is considerably less than five per cent of the land under forest cover. This is approximately one third of the amount considered to be safe or to constitute a balanced equation in respect of the land used.
I do not know what can be done in this regard to restore the land to a state of balance in old Ontario-and I imagine there is a similar condition in other provinces. I would suggest however that some encouragement might be given to municipalities to restore the forest cover in those areas. The old assessment plan in Ontario in connection with bush lots is not used to any great extent; it has fallen into disuse. In consequence, tree cutting and the destruction of forests has gone on to such an extent that, despite the excellent work being done by the department of lands and forests in Ontario, the forests are being depleted in southern Canada to such an extent that soil erosion is becoming progressively more dangerous.
Has the minister any remarks to make on this subject because I believe the question

of soil erosion is 'bound up in the whole matter. Despite the fact that forests and natural resources are considered a provincial responsibility, we have a tremendous responsibility to see that the soil of our country is preserved.
Can the minister state what is being done with regard to the control of the budworm and other pests, and also to avoid damage by fire? Can he state what quantity of wood is being cut? Can he give an estimate of the timber destroyed by pests and by fire and the value of timber that has been used either for pulp and paper purposes or for lumber? Is he having any success in this important matter of pest control?
I mention these things even though I come from southern Ontario because I realize that our forests are a national resource with which unfortunately we have been most profligate in days gone by.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the matters raised by the hon. member are most important. Conservation has been- engaging the attention of all levels of government. From the various reports that have been received it would appear that considerable emphasis has been placed upon this matter. Conservation authorities have been set up in Ontario under provincial legislation and at the present time there are some 13 of them operating. They jointly take over land that needs conservation and reforestation under a partnership ownership arrangement. The provincial government does the administration and reforestation and after a time the land may or may not revert to the municipalities.
The federal government has attempted to encourage conservation by a variety of measures, the most recent being provision in another vote to assist reforestation under an arrangement whereby the federal government will pay 20 per cent of the total reforestation costs of any province which enters into the necessary agreement. This has had the effect of stimulating reforestation in areas which needed it.
We also contribute toward setting up nurseries. The federal government has contributed toward the cost of building dams to conserve water. Particularly in connection with the Fanshawe projeot we made it a condition that we would assist with the project if the Ontario government would undertake a program of conservation in the drainage basin area. They are doing that just as it is being done in the Grand river drainage basin area. I think good results are being achieved. The encouraging part is that the problem is being recognized at 55704-185
Supply-Resources and Development the private ownership, the municipal, the provincial and the federal levels, all of which are concerned about it.
The hon. member asked about the spruce budworm and other pests. This problem is now handled by the Department of Agriculture, which has a fine laboratory at Sault Ste. Marie and at other places throughout the country. A spraying program is being conducted at the present time in New Brunswick toward which the federal government has contributed scientific help and other guidance. The provincial government and the company concerned are carrying the financial burden.
My hon. friend asked about losses. The average number of fires during the ten-year period 1940-49 inclusive was 5,431, and the number of fires in 1950 was 5,310. The average number of acres burned over during the ten-year period was 2,016,865, and in 1950, 2,226,765. The average extent of fires during that ten-year period was 371 acres, and for 1950, 419 acres.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What about budworm
destruction?


Robert Henry Winters: During the same ten-year period the average destruction of usable wood by insects and disease was 500,000 cubic feet.


John Lambert Gibson: I should like to start off what will be very brief remarks by commending the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre upon what he said with regard to the use of cigarettes in the woods. The hon. member indicated that this problem does not affect his own riding, but he did point out how hazardous the use of cigarettes is even in the centre of cities. Logging camp owners and logging workers appreciate the importance of this problem. Logging camp commissaries will not sell tailor-made cigarettes, and men are discharged who are found using this type of cigarette.
Considerable research has been done along the lines of damage to our timber resources, but I think the greatest destroyer is fire. If there is any further research the department could carry on along these lines I know it would prove most valuable. This research need not be very elaborate, and actually it could be carried on on an amateur basis. If this were done and the logging operators were informed of the results of the research the returns would be considerable for the outlay of a small expenditure.
How many timber cruisers and fores! engineers does the minister have in the forestry branch? This branch does very valuable work and I think it should be developed, So far as various forest industries in the province are concerned it would help in assessing the value of those if there could
2928	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development De an average spot check or audit of the Eorest resources. Incidentally, I cannot think of any department of the government that will not have some use for forest engineers or timber cruisers. I had occasion not long igo to discuss with the Indian affairs depart-nent what facilities they have for cruising ;imber on Indian reserves in Canada. I mderstand that department has no facilities it all, and I am wondering whether there s any liaison between the minister's depart-nent and other departments of the government in order to provide them with informa-don. It would seem to me there would be 10 sense in establishing a bunch of timber cruisers in each department that might use ;hem but I think it would be a very valuable :hing to have one department of the government adequately staffed for this very impor-;ant purpose.


Robert Henry Winters: I am very grateful to the hon. nember for Comox-Alberni for his remarks, le always adds to the debate on forestry >ecause of his intimate knowledge and his issociation with the subject. In reply to his larticular question about whether or not we lave a close liaison with other government lepartments, I can say that we do. He has tsked how many cruisers and forest engineers ve have on strength. We do not have any orest cruisers on permanent strength. What Tuising we have to do is done by parties luring the summer. We do have on strength '7 forest engineers and a total technical itrength, including forest engineers and esearch workers of various kinds, of 170.


Mr. Catherwood:: I appreciated the remarks he minister made in reply to the hon. mem->er for York West with respect to the matter if erosion and the work that his department s doing in this regard. I should like to say i brief word under this item concerning orestry branch administration because I ealize how important it is to all citizens of lanada. While I recognize the fact that the natter comes principally under provincial urisdiction, nevertheless it does apply to all lanada because of the importance of the orestry industry in our economy. When we top to consider that the forestry production if Canada equals, if not exceeds, the total iroduction of wheat and spring grains, and iven exceeds the total mineral production of lanada, it gives us some idea of the great mportance of the forestry industry to our leople.
In this connection, Mr. Chairman, I hope 'ou will allow me a little leeway for a minute ir two to outline to the minister, although
know he has probably already studied the natter, and to the committee, how forestry iroblems are met in Sweden, which country
think is perhaps the outstanding example of


forestry management of all countries in the world. In the year 1600 they established their first national forestry act, and from that time the state has continually strengthened the act until now their forestry conservation legislation is just about perfect.
I should like to refer to the paper industry of that country. Perhaps some hon. members who are connected with the paper industry will know of the Klippan mills in Sweden which have been in constant operation for over 300 years. Over that period of time they have continually used the products of their own lands without any depletion of their natural resources. A very good system of forestry schools has been established in Sweden. There are 55 of them in operation, and this industry is considered to be of such great importance that during the idle winter months when many industries are not in operation practically every family in Sweden has someone employed in the forest industry.
In that country out of a total of 60 millions of forested lands the state controls 11 million acres compared with a square mile production in Canada of 712,000 square miles of forests. In Sweden the district foresters are trained in special schools. There are 600 districts throughout the country and a working schedule is followed that is laid down by the headquarters board in Stockholm. They have built up a system of forestry in perpetuity that is considered the finest in the world. I think Canada could benefit very greatly from the forest policy in effect in Sweden. I suggest to the minister that his department should give this matter serious consideration. I suggest that he might consider sending some of his best forestry experts to Sweden to study their methods because we realize that we have reached the point in Canada today where we are beginning to deplete our supply.
In 1949 we passed the Canada Forestry Act which I think was a splendid piece of legislation in so far as the perpetuity of our forest production is concerned. Under this act the government was authorized to participate in measures for the protection of our forest areas. I think it was an excellent act and when it was before the house we all supported it. It also made provision for cooperation between the federal and provincial governments to combat fires and insect and other pest diseases. We all recognize the fact that many of our large paper and lumber companies throughout the country have done an excellent job in reforestation for the purpose of maintaining our forest lands. We read in the papers day by day of the amount of reforestation they are doing and their

plans for the future. We commend them for that but I say that the government should follow the example set by Sweden. I feel that Canada would benefit very greatly from the experience gained by that country over the years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
412. To provide for contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory and reforestation in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces, $1,225,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What amounts have been given to the different provinces for reforestation, and particularly what amount has been given to the province of Prince Edward Island?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount allocated to the province of Prince Edward Island for reforestation is $7,500. There are three other provinces that have entered into agreements with the federal government with respect to reforestation, the arrangement being that the federal government will contribute 20 per cent of the cost of reforestation projects. The amounts paid in the fiscal year 1951-52 are as follows: Ontario, $71,206; Saskatchewan, $1,235; and British Columbia, which is the fourth province, $75,146.


Percy Chapman Black: I understand that no appropriation is made for the benefit of the other maritime provinces and the other provinces of Canada.


Robert Henry Winters: There would be an appropriation under the terms of the policy that has been set out whereby the federal government will contribute toward the reforestation and inventory program of any province that cares to enter into an agreement with respect to these features of forest management, but Nova Scotia has not entered into an agreement, nor has the province of Newfoundland. New Brunswick has entered into an agreement with respect to forest inventory but has not yet participated under the reforestation plan.


John Lambert Gibson: Do we have to have an agreement before forest inventories can be obtained? They have to enter into an agreement with us?


Robert Henry Winters: Under the terms of this plan, which is formulated under the Canada Forestry Act, we do require an agreement and we have such an agreement with the province of British Columbia.


Mr. Nowlan:: Would the minister explain whether it is dependent upon the terms of the different agreements or in every case are the moneys administered by the province, and what are the details?
55704-185i
5, 1952
Supply-Resources and Development


Robert Henry Winters: With the exception of Prince Edward Island, where forestry conditions are entirely different and they are not concerned with forest inventories but rather witl reforestation, the agreements are the same and the expenditures are administered by the provincial governments.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry:


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
416. Grant to Pulp and Paper Research Institute of Canada, $100,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, will the minister explain what this body is? The item i: for a grant of $100,000 to the pulp and papei research institute of Canada. Is it a publii body or a private body? For whom do thej work and who gets the benefit of thi: $100,000?
Mr. V/inters: This, Mr. Chairman, is i three-way agreement under which the labor atories are operated by the federal govern ment, McGill university, and the Canadiai pulp and paper research institute. The result; of research are made available to the publii generally. The federal government's contribu tion to the project is $100,000. The project i going very well and I believe the taxpayer are getting full value for their money.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is the federal government' contribution one-third of the total or do thi other participants contribute more or less?


Robert Henry Winters: Speaking from memory, thi total cost of the operation is approximate!' $700,000.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
418. Federal contribution towards annual mainte nance, including staff and expenses, $75,000.
Percy Chapman Black: Here is anothe of those statutory items. The only opportunit; members have for getting a report from th minister and the department is now. Th item is:
(S) To provide for capital expenditures in con formity with section 8 (1) of the Eastern Rock; Mountains Forest Conservation Act (chap. 5! statutes of 1947), $1,050,000.
The appropriation was the same last yea and I think it is an appropriation on whic we should have a report. Just what was don last year and what is proposed this yea under this heading?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, this is a arrangement under an act which enables th federal government and the government c Alberta jointly to protect for twenty-fiv years the eastern slopes of the Rocky mour tains-to preserve those rivers runnin
1930	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development hrough the prairie provinces and involving he national interest. The program jointly is hat there will be a capital expenditure over six-year period in the total amount of 6,300,000.


Percy Chapman Black: How much from he federal government and how much from he province?


Robert Henry Winters: The federal government bears he total capital expenditure. The maintenance f the project is on a cost sharing basis etween the provincial government and the ederal government; and the cost of fighting .res is also on a shared basis. This year the udget is for $1,050,000 which hon. members /ill notice is one-sixth of the total capital ommitment. It is for roads, trails, buildings, urveys, radio communication system, and the urchase of equipment.


Percy Chapman Black: I understood the ainister's explanation was that this expendi-ure was made in conjunction with the pro-incial government, but I also understood him o say that the provincial government made
0	cash appropriation for this work.


Robert Henry Winters: I said the arrangement was
1	joint one between the government of llberta and the federal government under /hich the initial capital cost of $6,300,000 is ieing borne by the federal government.


Percy Chapman Black: Well, what
mount is to be appropriated by the provincial government in connection with this latter?


Robert Henry Winters: There is nothing to be approbated by the provincial government for apital expenditures through this six-year leriod for which the federal government has ontracted to bear the capital costs.


Percy Chapman Black: I do not quite inderstand the minister. He is making an ppropriation this year of $1,050,000 in con-unction with the provincial government. I iave understood the minister to say repeat-dly that the provincial government is not raking any appropriation although the work 3 being carried out jointly. What do they do?


Robert Henry Winters: I said a moment ago, Mr. Chairman, and I do not mind repeating, that be term of the agreement is for twenty-five ears. The capital expenditure period is for ix years at the present time. For the balance f the twenty-five years the provincial gov-rnment will be responsible for all mainten-nce costs. They are also responsible for heir portion of the fire fighting costs, but hey are not responsible for any capital xpenditure costs during this six-year period.


Percy Chapman Black: Is the capital expenditure administered by the minister's department?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, it is administered by a board which consists of two members appointed by the federal government and one by the government of the province of Alberta. The chairman at the present time is General Kennedy.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian government travel bureau-
419. To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,496,900.
Joseph Warner Murphy: Mr. Chairman, I will only take a few minutes of the time of the house on this item. I have spoken on this subject practically every year, and, as a matter of fact, I think the first speech I made in the house primarily concerned the tourist industry.
This item involves one and a half million dollars and at the moment it is not so much the item itself that I am concerned about, but rather the tourist business or the potential tourist business in Canada. I am concerned with what we are doing to obtain it and with what we are not doing. In no sense can anything I say be termed provincialism because I think every member of the House of Commons is concerned over this industry. I do not think there is any industry which affects every segment of our society as does the tourist industry. Whether we derive revenue from the maritimes or from British Columbia, from Ontario or Quebec, the overall picture remains the same as far as Canada is concerned. Fortunately for some provinces they obtain a great deal more tourist business than others. I think perhaps it is because they apply a greater effort toward obtaining those U.S. dollars.
We have a travel bureau presently set up under the Minister of Resources and Development. I have said before that this bureau was set up under R. B. Bennett in 1934 and it has operated under some eleven different ministries since that time. It has been a sort of Topsy that has been bandied about without proper regard for its importance. Some years ago, when tourists from the United States accounted for about $300 million some odd, I said that our tourist industry should amount to about a billion dollars per year. Unless we set our sights on that objective, I do not think we will ever attain it. We are certainly not going to attain it the way we are going.
First, I should like to mention that most of the tourists enter this country on rubber. They come in automobiles, and mostly from the United States. The majority of United

States tourists come from the area around Chicago and east. I mention that because, living in Sarnia as I do, it is not news to any member in the house that within about eight hours' drive of that city there are more people in the United States than live in the whole of the Dominion of Canada. Many of those people do not realize what Canada offers in the way of tourist attractions. This country is fortunate in being in a position to offer so much to so many, and I regret that we are not taking advantage of those circumstances by using the proper method to invite those people to enjoy their vacations in this country. Today everyone takes a vacation, because even the dinner bucket man gets two, three or four weeks' vacation. These people usually go on their vacation in an automobile.
The first people these tourists meet upon entering Canada are the immigration and customs officials. While these two departments do not come under this minister, I think every member of the house will agree with me when I say that we are very proud of the staffs we have at the border points. I am very enthusiastic about the calibre of the employees we have in Sarnia, Windsor, Niagara Falls, and in fact at any place where I have had the opportunity of crossing into this country from the United States. We might well be proud of them, because the impression the tourist gets upon entering Canada is very important. Most of these tourists have travelled in foreign countries, and they are pleased at the kindly reception they meet with from the customs and immigration officials. I am proud to stand up in this house and say that the ministries who employ these two groups of people must be satisfied in their own minds that they have very efficient staffs. I mention that because it plays a large part in the tourist industry. Where I live I meet many tourists, and I have no hesitation in saying that many of them volunteer information on how well they were received when they entered Canada.
We are spending a million and a half dollars to develop the tourist industry. I recall that my first speech on the tourist industry in 1945 took almost forty minutes, and each succeeding speech has occupied a little less time. It seems that the longer I speak about this business the less the tourist industry develops, so perhaps I should limit my remarks to about five minutes. I am disturbed about the apparent lethargy which seems to exist in the development of this industry. It is so apparent to anyone who is interested in the tourist business. Practically one million dollars of this vote is for advertising. We do not seem to be getting any results, because the business has not increased.
Supply-Resources and Development When we look at the dollars and the dollai value, our tourist industry is down aboul fifty per cent compared with some years age when our dollar was worth a great deal more than fifty-four cents. I got sick and tired ol asking for returns on who had the advertising account, and what magazines anc papers were used. I received a list amounting to about three pages.
I believe that the head of any industry ir this country that was spending a millior dollars on advertising its product, whether i be Ford Motor Company or Imperial Oil would certainly find out if they were getting value for that amount of money. We ar< not receiving value for the money we ar< spending. I spent many thousands of dollar: advertising the five-cent cigar when it wa: worth smoking, and I know a little bit abou advertising. You must judge this thing oi the results, and we are not getting result: from this advertising. The same firm o Cockfield, Brown and Company have had th advertising ever since I came to this housi in 1945. I would suggest to the minister it i about time he had someone make a surve; of the effectiveness of this advertising, be cause we are not getting results for tfi million dollars we are spending. I say tha that million dollars is being thrown dowi the drain.
When you look over the list of magazine on which the advertising appears, and se some of these picayune publications upo which the money is spent, you realize the there is not one chance in ten thousand c any of the people of the United States wh want to come to Canada ever seeing thos advertisements. The minister has had thre years' experience in this department, and : I were the minister I would make an inquir to ascertain what return he is getting fc this million dollar expenditure. I hesitat to go much further into this thing, but whe I see this inactivity it reminds me of marsh into which you cannot see for th moss on the trees and the scum on the wate: I think it is about time this governmer revised its ideas on the value of the touri: industry to this country. In years gone b I have suggested that we have a separal ministry for it, because I think it could fc developed into a billion dollar industry. ] that is so, it is certainly worth a speci: ministry. There are some departments i this government that might be merged, bi at no time since I came into this house hE this government approached the tourist indu: try with the zeal and determination nece: sary to obtain the United States dollars whic these tourists could bring. I say that witl out any hesitation, Mr. Chairman.
2932	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development
I do not pretend to speak for any one province, because this industry is as impor-:ant to the west as it is to the east. When myone travels across this country of ours :rom British Columbia to the east coast, he inds that there are thousands of places in vhich anyone would be glad to enjoy a loliday, whether he be a Canadian or a :itizen of the United States. I think that his government must recognize that they lave more incentive today than they ever had o build up the tourist industry of this coun-ry. There was a time when the various fates of the United States did not bother o advertise their attraction lure, but today he situation is different. If you pick up my New York, Boston, Detroit or Chicago >aper or even our Canadian papers you will ind such advertising. There are states in he union whose tourist business is three to our times ours in Canada for a whole year.
say that is because of the aggressive policy if those various states, which are favoured >y weather or climate. But it is true enough hat we have here weather that is incom-larable for a vacation. In addition to the veather we have the scenery, the lakes, the nountains and everything else that goes to nake up a good holiday. We have plenty of ;ood resorts, with more being built every lay.
Those in the tourist industry are extremely ourteous, thank goodness. I think we must lay tribute to those who endeavour to cater o the tourists. We do not find here-as ve do in some foreign places; I will not mention any particular place-the tourist ieing gypped by those with whom he has o do business. In travelling in this country rom coast to coast I have found out that ny tourist, no matter whether he comes from >ur own country or from the other side, gets . fair deal from those who are in the tourist adustry.
I have said before on more than one occa-ion that there should be closer co-operation ietween the dominion government and the irovincial governments. There seems to ie overlapping. They have a couple of d'ays' onference in the fall, but that is not enough.
say without any hesitation that if the ominion government cannot do better than t is doing here, it should transfer the money hat is being asked from this parliament to he various provinces, let the provinces get n with the work and do a job of it. Some f them are doing a job. I hesitate to say hese things, but I think we are entitled to
billion dollar industry; let us get it. We re not going to get it by going along in he way we are now and have been going or the last ten years.


Let us consider the province of Ontario. I will just refer to that one particular province. I said a moment ago that Cockfield Brown got a million dollars for advertising and we are getting a poor job. The province of Ontario gets practically 60 per cent of the tourist industry. Their advertising for last year amounted to $155,000. It must be obvious to anyone who can listen or read that if Ontario can get that percentage of the tourist industry by spending $155,000, the whole dominion should certainly get a great deal more than some $280 million by spending $1 million in advertising.
As I have said before, Mr. Chairman, the trouble has been that these suggestions have fallen like seed; they grow up, and then somebody comes along and destroys them or ignores them. Maybe that is the reason we have lots of ragweed these days. Years ago I suggested that instead of spending so much money on advertising from which we get so little value, we should apply a more aggressive method of getting entree to those places in the United States from which tourists are apt to come to this country. We need United States dollars, and we shall continue to need them.
I said before that we should have motion pictures in every city from which we get tourists in any numbers. Let there be teams who will go out from this country. It is not good enough for one or two men in this department to go over to the United States and tell them we have a great place to have a holiday. If you attacked this thing in a businesslike method, you would have teams of, we will say, two people or four people, as the case may be, who would be on a yearly schedule in the various states throughout the United States from which we get the most tourists, who would be able to show motion pictures illustrating what we have to offer, and who would be able to give talks to various service clubs and so on.
The same thing could be made available through the motion picture industry. We get most of our pictures from Hollywood. I would not have any hesitation in saying to Hollywood producers: If you want to put your pictures in Canadian theatres, you must show something about Canada in all the theatres or many of the theatres in the United States. I have said that before. Here we have, within this last year, three, four or five speeches about the tourist industry; but that is not good enough, Mr. Chairman. We have too much to offer, to do so little.
There are many other ways of developing the tourist industry. I see in the details an item of $18,000 rental for an office in New

York. When the minister replies I should like him to give some information on that item and other matters with which I am dealing. With respect to offices in these various cities, I say we should take part in various trade fairs and all that sort of thing in order to develop this industry. But it is not going to be developed unless some other method is adopted by this government, one of realism and with a proper approach, in order to get the results to which we in this country are entitled.
I am going to mention something I think is extremely important. I have here an Ontario publication and I take it for granted that it is accurate. This bears out exactly what I said a few minutes ago. They have gone to the trouble to make a survey. As you will yourself recall, Mr. Chairman, and as will many members of the committee, one of the greatest boosts this country ever got for the tourist industry was under the premiership of the present leader of our party, when he had some twelve editors make a ten or twelve-day jaunt in the province of Ontario, with the result that we obtained an enormous amount of splendid publicity in the United States. I think I recall an article by Rex Beach on this subject in the Saturday Evening Post; and we all know the circulation of that magazine in the United States. That is another method of approach.
I think this dominion government surely has time, through this department, to consider some avenues we can follow to get more revenue. This is a questionnaire. One question is: What prompted you to choose Ontario? This might apply to any other province in the Dominion of Canada. The 2,782 answers out of 3,000-which is an astonishing proportion to me and I think to hon. members of the committee-gave these results:
Results were:
Per cent
Travel show	 3
Ontario government ad	 16
Canadian government ad	 11
Resort or camp ad	 4
Recommendation of friends	 51
Travel agents' choice	 1
Other (mostly curiosity, desire for a foreign vacation, interest in Canada)	 35
In that 35 per cent are a great many people to whom our appeal must be made and Intensified. What astonishes me is that here the Ontario government spent $150,000 for advertising and the dominion government spent $1 million. Yet to the question, what prompted you to choose Ontario, the answers showed the Ontario advertisement had influenced 16 per cent and the Canadian government advertisement 11 per cent. To me or to any man in business that is evidence that there is something wrong with the
Supply-Resources and Development advertising method that is being used. Wher we are spending $1 million I think we arc entitled to get value. That is the reason ] am taking some time today to speak aboul the matter, because we are not getting tha1 value.
Here is another interesting item in thi: same questionnaire:	Who helped plan youi
Ontario vacation? There were 1,686 replies The answer to that is this, and I take it foi granted that it is accurate; I do not questior it for a moment: Ontario government department of travel and publicity, 52 per cent Canadian government travel bureau, 21 pe: cent; other state or provincial travel bureaux 6 per cent. There again is evidence that ai aggressive department, as they have ii Ontario, can get results while we, who ari spending six and a half times more, are no getting results.


Mr. Byrne:: They are not spending it all fo: Ontario alone.


Joseph Warner Murphy: They are not spending it al for Ontario, and I did not say they were If you would clean out those ears of your you would hear what I am saying.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Say something sensible and will listen.


Joseph Warner Murphy: You would not know wha something sensible was. I have heard yoi interrupt so often, and it is sickening enoug] listening to you.
If I were in the minister's place I wouli certainly have a survey made of the result we are getting from the amount of mone; spent, and why we are not getting mor tourists into this country. He would also hav to appreciate the competition we have t face. He should study what some province are doing more successfully than the domin ion department.
I suggested before that when the conferenc is held in the fall between the provinces an the dominion they should bring in advertis ing executives from successful corporation: We have plenty of them in this country wh would be only too glad to come to a sessio of that kind. These big companies in Canad have become big because they have studie the best methods not only of production bi of selling what they produce. If they hav good products they advertise those product That advertising is a proper procedure. I suf gest that advertising by the department migl follow some of the first class advertising Vi see done by the railway and steamship con panics in this country. Let us compare wh; they do with what is done by Cockfiel Brown. There is no comparison whatsoeve
In conclusion, I hope the minister will m take unkindly what I have said, because
2934	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development mean every word of it. The tourist industry means so much to every province that there must be an awakening as to what we have to offer for so many people. We can get tourists if we go after them. I believe if the minister were in a position to increase his present responsibilities and give more time to the work of the travel bureau, the country would be well rewarded.


Robert Henry Winters: Let me say at the outset that [ regard the hon. member's speech as nonconstructive, unfair and inaccurate. He has every right to say what he has said but he contributed almost nothing to the solution ef the tourist problem in Canada, and he has shown that he knows very little about our cperations.
Now let me say one or two things about what is being done and, in doing so, let me ;ry to be constructive. We spend about $1 nillion a year of the taxpayers' money in idvertising Canada in the United States. Visi-:ors to this country spent last year in Canada 3271 million. I do not want to say all that 3271 million came to Canada because of our idvertising; but I will say that the $1 million spent by the taxpayers was very well spent. \nd in terms of money brought back to Canada it more than paid its way. I believe he taxpayers of this country as a whole are sound and sensible and will realize that fact.
The hon. member asks why we do not evaluate what we are doing. There is an ndependent research organization known as he Starch research organization, which we lo not pay but which nevertheless does inalyse tourist (advertising each year. They how consistently the advertising sponsored >y the Canadian government travel bureau o be better than that of any other agency vhich advertises anywhere in the travel field. Ve also have our advertising evaluated by he national opinion research centre. We herefore do scrutinize what we are doing in very searching way, and we do try to mprove it at all times. The hon. member riticized us for not getting the benefit of he advice of travel people, of what he called ravel executives in this country. I am sur-irised he does not know that each year in our ominion-provincial tourist conference we ave every top advertising executive of every ompany in this country-


Joseph Warner Murphy: I said business executives.


Robert Henry Winters: -who is concerned with *avel; and they give us the benefit of their dviee.


Joseph Warner Murphy: On a point of order; I said usiness executives.


Robert Henry Winters: That is not a .point of order.


The Chairman:: The hon. member may clarify a point in 'his speech either by asking the minister if he wishes to yield and resume his seat, thus permitting the clarification to be made; otherwise he must wait until the minister has finished his speech.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I would like to ask a question., and have it clarified. Is it not true that I said I would like to see him have advertising men from responsible and successful business' firms? I was not talking about other agencies.


Robert Henry Winters: I think the hon. member's question will stand on the record; and I think, too, the impression the hon. member was trying to convey is evident.
Then he suggested that we should do more to get the picture across to people in the United States. We have travel shows which last year visited Chicago, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle. We have films in about 63 libraries in the United States, which have a wide distribution and circulation, showing Canada to people in the United States.
He suggested that we should try to get Canadian content into United States films. That was a constructive suggestion, but he is considerably behind as the facts of the situation reveal. Some years ago under the Department of Trade and Commerce a Canadian co-operation project was set up, the sole aim of which was to get Canadian content into Hollywood films. That was one of the arrangements under which Hollywood was given permission, one might say, to continue to show their pictures in Canada and to take funds out of this country at a time when we were trying to build up our reserves of United States dollars.
I understand that at the present time some of the private distributors such as Famous Players have agents in Hollywood whose major job it is to get references to Canada and other Canadian content into Hollywood films. Of course no one can induce people to go to theatres to see pictures that do not appeal to them. Therefore we cannot dictate what sort of content should be put into pictures distributed by private distributors. But every effort is made, and I think successfully, to get Canadian content into United States films.
I had the privilege this year of visiting some of the studios in Los Angeles. The producers were most anxious to show me what they were doing by way of inserting Canadian content into their films, and were very proud of what they had accomplished. Some of the films they had before them at that time are in Ottawa theatres at the moment.

In the New York office we spend $18,000 a year for rental of the accommodation, but I am satisfied that there again the Canadian taxpayers are getting a good return for their money. Over 1,000 potential visitors to Canada are serviced every week by the New York office. That office also sends 700 to 800 queries a week to Ottawa to be serviced here. In addition that office provides information to writers, newspapers and magazines. I am sure the hon. member also noticed a considerable increase in the number of references to Canada in United States magazines. We have an office in Chicago which is also quite successful in inducing visitors to come to Canada.
My hon. friend may say: What is the result of all this? The result is that last year we had more visitors to Canada than in any year in Canada's history. They spent less per capita, but even in the mood he is in today I do not think the hon. member would blame the Canadian government travel bureau for not inducing tourists to spend more money once they get here. The main function of the travel bureau is to advertise all parts of Canada, not just Ontario, Nova Scotia or any other particular province, so that tourists will come here. Once they get here it is the responsibility of those concerned with the tourist trade to see that they are made sufficiently welcome so they will want to stay and spend their money.
When the hon. member attempts to compare the record of the province of Ontario with that of the government travel bureau he is comparing unlikes. The Ontario travel bureau is doing an excellent job. It is well staffed and presents its material in a good way. The Canadian government travel bureau devotes time and money to advertising Ontario. If Ontario is enjoying success as a result we are more than pleased. We are not competing with them in any way, we are simply trying to help the provincial governments stimulate their tourist trade.
What is the situation this year? For the five months for which we have records we have had more queries than ever before. These have been the biggest five months in point of interest in tourist activities in Canada of any period in Canada's history. We have dominion-provincial conferences every year during which representatives of all provincial governments come to Ottawa. As I said before, advertising executives of companies concerned with travel come to Ottawa and sit down with us. We try to work out ways whereby we can stimulate tourist traffic to Canada. I think I am reflecting very fairly the views of those people who sit down with us when I say that the Canadian taxpayers,
5, 1952
Supply-Resources and Development money spent on tourist promotion is spent to good advantage. I believe they consider that a good job is being done. I think the provincial governments from one coast to the other will take from my hon. friend's remarks this afternoon the inference that he is reflecting against them as well as against the Canadian government travel bureau by saying that we jointly are not doing a good job in this field.
It is our aim to do the best we can. We are open for constructive suggestions this year just as we have been in other years. I think we are making progress. I believe if hon. members reflect soberly on the problem and the results that have been achieved through the efforts of the Canadian government travel bureau under its well-known director they will realize that there is not the lethargy to which my hon. friend referred. We are in fact doing what we set out to do, seeing that the taxpayers of Canada get a good return on the money they are spending in this field.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Will the minister give the revenue from the tourist industry during the years from 1945 down to last year? That will indicate whether there has been any lethargy.


Robert Henry Winters: That again is the sort of unfair approach to the problem to which I referred earlier. I said that more tourists came to Canada last year than during any other year in Canada's history. My hon. friend is trying to show that in point of dollars spent this industry is down. Manifestly our job is to bring tourists to Canada. Whether they spend money here is something beyond our jurisdiction.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Just give us the figures for those years.


Robert Henry Winters: I will give the figures asked for by the hon. member. The total expenditures in Canada were as follows:
1945		 1946			million 	 $166 	 222
1947 			 251
1948 			 280
1949 			 286
1950 		 ..		 275
1951 			 271


Joseph Warner Murphy: Those figures verify what I said a few moments ago. Despite what the minister has said, despite the increased population in the United States, we find this decrease in revenue. Any business executive who found that his revenue had decreased from $280 million in 1948 and $286 million in 1949 to $275 million in 1950 and $271 million in 1951 would be concerned about his business. Is it any wonder that we are concerned about the return that we are getting for our money?
2936	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development I resent any sugestion by the minister that my remarks are going to be misinterpreted by the provinces. Not one province in the country will misunderstand what I said. I think there should be closer co-operation between the dominion and the provinces. I believe much could be learned from some of the provinces which get a good share of the tourist industry.


Mr. Cavers:: The minister has indicated the amounts spent in Canada from 1945 down to 1951. Can he tell us the number of persons who came to Canada during that period?


Robert Henry Winters: I have not the figures before me for all the years involved, but I will be glad to get them for the hon. member.


Joseph Warner Murphy: What amount of advertising has been done during the last four years, and what firms got that advertising? How much was spent in Canada and how much in the United States?


Robert Henry Winters: The total advertising budget is spent in the United States, and in each of those years was placed through the firm of Cockfield, Brown and Company.


George Clyde Nowlan: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to become involved in any discussion as to the propriety of these expenditures because I am not qualified to speak on that matter. I do suggest to the minister that when the hon. member for Lambton West, who has had considerable business experience, speaks as he did this afternoon it is hardly becoming to say that he knows nothing about this matter. The minister is not reflecting his usual genial nature when he speaks in that manner.


Harry Peter Cavers: The hon. member was not very genial.


George Clyde Nowlan: I do not think the minister is facilitating the passing of his estimates.


Mr. Martin:: We are all happy now.


George Clyde Nowlan: The Minister of National Health and Welfare will pour some oil on the waters. I think this year the department is perhaps facing a more difficult problem than in the past due to the situation with respect to the Canadian dollar. It is all right for the minister to say that last year more tourists came to Canada from the United States than ever before. We are very glad to have them, but I am sure the minister would not assume that the credit for that necessarily rests with the administration of his department.


Robert Henry Winters: I said I would not attribute that all to the department.


George Clyde Nowlan: There were more United States cars on the road. There was probably a higher standard of prosperity there, and there


was a depression of currency here. It is impossible to use a mathematical yardstick to determine what caused that situation. However, we know that we will have a slightly different situation this year and perhaps the department will be put to a greater test. Far be it from me, with a Nova Scotian in charge of the bureau and another Nova Scotian as the head of the department, to suggest that they will not meet that test.
I was down east the other day and there is one particular problem which is concerning the people there and with which I am sure the minister is conversant. It is a recent development arising out of the catastrophe facing the whole nation as a result of the foot-and-mouth disease. It affects that part of the tourist industry which depends upon hunting in the fall of the year. The intimation that has come from the United States is that no game can be exported from this country. I should think that is a rather farfetched ruling arising out of the problem in western Canada, and through the influence the government can bring to bear I hope the minister will be able to do something in that connection. He may have made a protest along that line already and some results may have been achieved.
I happened to be in one of the maritime provinces a week or so ago in the northern part of which the people are dependent to a large extent on tourists hunting for game in the fall. They were tremendously concerned about the matter. I have stood on the pier at Digby and have seen fifteen, twenty or twenty-five cars in an afternoon ready to go across the bay with deer carcasses in the cars or in trailers which were being taken back to the United States. Many of these people will not be coming to this country this fall because, though they come for the sport, they like to take visible proof of their success home with them. If they are forbidden to export game they will at least be discouraged, and I would think definite steps should be taken to deal with the situation now.
Speaking of advertising, I think there is one point wherein we fail, at least in our part of the country and I think generally throughout Canada. We fail to advertise our historic sites, and we should emphasize and develop them. I can think of a building in Grand Pre which is the only remaining home of those built by the American planters when they came to this country after the Acadians were expelled. It is a home in which one of the prime ministers of this country was born. That home was sold a short time ago for purposes which certainly will not result in its being maintained much longer. If a house like that were in existence in the

United States it would be marked by flagpoles for ten miles on either side, and signs telling you that you were approaching a historic site and you should take off your hat and walk reverently. This house is hidden in the shrubs, and is not marked in any way and requires expenditure of substantial moneys for maintenance. This is the type of matter which I think should be given attention in the development of our tourist industry.
The minister knows the habitation in the lower end of my constituency which is the exact replica of the first white settlement north of the gulf of Mexico. It is something for which the government should be commended, but there it stands bare and barren in the centre of a hay field. We have been considering estimates for reforestation this afternoon, yet at this particular place not a tree has been planted. When the tourist approaches such an environment it certainly does not appeal to him. The expenditure of a few hundred dollars there would add tremendously to the investment the government has already made.
There is one other matter I should like to mention in passing because this industry, as the minister knows, is of tremendous importance to all Canada but particularly to the east where we have not the industrial life on which other parts of Canada can draw. I believe the development of the tourist industry is one of the greatest contributions the minister and the government can make toward the economic stability of the mari-times, and particularly of my own province. As someone said a few moments ago, the tourists all move on wheels, and when they come to Nova Scotia they have to move on wheels over a long and tortuous route through various states and provinces. I hope the minister will exercise his influence on his colleagues to see to it that a more adequate transportation system is provided between Yarmouth and the state of Maine so that tourists can come to Nova Scotia without these long, dusty drives.
I am sure the minister rather deplores that situation, too. One finds that keels have been laid for over thirty steel ships in the last year, yet steel is not available for the construction of that promised ferry which is so badly needed. I think the minister should and can give us a lead and in that way make a real contribution toward the development of the tourist industry in the mari times.


Joseph Warner Murphy: The minister did not give the amounts spent for advertising in the last four years. I think he overlooked that. He just said one firm handled the advertising. While he is looking that up, I might say
5, 1952
Supply-Resources and Development that naturally I resent his introductory remarks. I might remind him that pretty much what I said this afternoon has been said before on many occasions, not only to him but to former ministers.


Robert Henry Winters: Repetition does not make it correct.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I think they have even acted upon some of the constructive ideas I have suggested. From the minister's attitude this afternoon, apparently if he did receive a constructive suggestion he would ignore it.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Would the minister tell us-


Joseph Warner Murphy: I have not had the answer to my other question.


Robert Henry Winters: We are looking it up.


Louis-René Beaudoin: While the minister is looking it up perhaps the hon. member for York South might proceed.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Was the whole amount of $953,000 for advertising in United States newspapers actually spent on advertising, or does that include the commission paid to the advertising firms?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The firm, just one.


Robert Henry Winters: The Canadian government pays no commission directly on its advertising. The commission is paid by the newspapers and magazines with whom the advertising is placed.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the government not know how much Cockfield Brown is making by way of commission out of this huge sum of money?


Robert Henry Winters: Cockfield Brown get 15 per cent from the magazines and the newspapers.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item carry?


Joseph Warner Murphy: No, Mr. Chairman.


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member for Lamb-ton West asked for the figures for 1945-


Joseph Warner Murphy: The last four years will be
all right.


Robert Henry Winters: In 1951 we spent $553,920 for magazine advertising.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I mean the total amount for advertising.


Robert Henry Winters: I will give the newspapers separately. In 1950 the amount for magazine advertising was $665,350. In 1949 it was $573,648 and in 1948 it was $426,003. The corresponding figures for newspaper advertising are: 1951, $284,034; 1950, $256,665; 1949, $251,913; 1948, $75,410.

Supply-Resources and Development


Joseph Warner Murphy: Have you the totals there for each year?


Robert Henry Winters: No, I have not the totals for each year.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On what basis is the firm that places this advertising chosen by the government or by the department? It has already been indicated that the same firm has had this advertising for a number of years. I note in the public accounts for the year ended March 31, 1951, the last year for which the public accounts are available, payments made on behalf of the travel bureau to Cockfield, Brown and Company Limited, Montreal, amounted to $608,377.25. The minister has just told us that this is the total amount paid for the advertising itself and that Cockfield, Brown and Company gets 15 per cent as its commission. Fifteen per cent would be $91,256.58, the amount Cockfield Brown made out of this business in that year.
May I ask my question in these terms: Are tenders called or is any inquiry made as to the possibility of other firms handling this business? Has consideration been given to the possibility of the travel bureau placing this advertising directly?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, that would be an expensive way of doing it, if it were practical. The advertising agency prepares all ads, and its expense for preparing the ads and doing other work in connection with placing the ads comes out of the agency's percentage. The Canadian travel bureau's arrangement is that it pays the media which carry the travel advertising through the agency which places the advertising, but they get their fee in turn from the media which carry the advertising.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It seems to me that if the same firm is doing this over and over again, the cost of preparing ads, handling business and placing ads should be decreasing. I would still like to know how this firm was selected in the first place, and why it is still the same firm. There are other advertising firms in the country-if I cannot persuade the minister that the government should do this work itself.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not know how the firm was picked in the first place but it is an outstanding advertising firm.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It does most of the Liberal party's work.


Robert Henry Winters: It has been doing an excellent job of work as witnessed by the fact that the Canadian tourist advertising excels that of all other agencies interested in tourist trade. That is an indication of a pretty good job.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Before this section carries, I understood the minister to say, with respect to advertising, that it is mostly done by the federal government. That does not interfere with provincial governments doing their own advertising.


Robert Henry Winters: That is quite right.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Today I met two men from Washington and their inquiries were with reference to a good place to spend their vacation during this present summer, bringing: their families. I happened to have some of the travel bureau advertising material in my possession which I was very glad to pass on to these gentlemen, who will be going back to Washington in a day or two. I have made a note of what the minister has said about the advertising being very good and I hope we get these people with their families down in Prince Edward Island, the greatest tourist resort in Canada, of course. The only results we could ever see from advertising was from advertising for which we never paid, given to our island by our great authoress, the late Lucy Maud Montgomery MacDonald.
As an hon. member said a while ago, if we specialized in our advertising, giving some of the specialties in the different provinces, people might come to us. If the advertising is following the right channels the amount spent is not too much, in my opinion. In fact I would like to see more spent on advertising, and I hope we can get up to-the billion dollar mark in this business. The tourist industry is one of the greatest industries we have, especially in the maritimes.
I asked the minister when these estimates were up before whether he would not help us in fixing up six miles of roadway leading to our tourist camps and cottages. He declined to say that he would do this though it is one of the worst hindrances we have, it is so dusty. However, we will likely get him down there this summer and we will take him for a swift drive over those six miles to the greatest golf course anywhere in the land. In fact the Minister of Defence Production says it is the finest golf course in America. I think the reason he said that was because when he played there he won a trophy.
We should advertise so we can get more tourists. We are anxious to get more tourists into our province because we can give them the best of seafood to eat; the best of butter that can be produced anywhere-no margarine on their slices of bread-good beef and lamb; everything that is good to eat. There are lobsters galore, and oysters if people stay long enough in the fall. Those are the things which should entice people, and I am sure I for one will not take objection if the minister-

spends $1 million or $2 million as long as we get some results.


Mr. Cardiff:: I would like to suggest to
the minister if he is spending that much money he should tell the advertising agencies what a wonderful place Goderich is. People have not seen anything until they get down there.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Would the minister tell us what is involved in the $11,000 item for living and rental allowance?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, that is for the personnel in the New York and Chicago offices.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I wonder if this advertising firm submits its ideas for advertising to you and to the department prior to the advertising season, and if by chance you have ideas submitted to you by other advertising firms.


Robert Henry Winters: All plates are submitted to us before they are sent out to the distributor and, of course, many ideas are submitted to the Canadian government travel bureau. Many of them are adopted and find their way into the advertising of various parts of the country.


Joseph Warner Murphy: Who indicates where this
advertising must be placed?


Robert Henry Winters: The Canadian government
travel bureau is responsible for that but it is guided by the agency which has broad experience in those fields. We look to them for advice but the Canadian government travel bureau is responsible.


Joseph Warner Murphy: What other advertising firms have submitted ideas over the last two or three years?


Robert Henry Winters: I cannot answer that, Mr. Chairman. I do not have that information before me; but we get a wide variety of ideas from a great many people across Canada.


Joseph Warner Murphy: It seems strange to me, Mr. Chairman, that with a million dollar account involved the minister now states he gets ideas from different people. I am wondering if he has asked other advertising firms to submit ideas, and I say that because this firm has had this advertising account ever since this government came into power. I believe we are entitled to an explanation.


Robert Henry Winters: The explanation is that they are doing a good job in getting out the type of advertising which rates highest in the field. Surely that merits confidence when we are looking to people to place our advertising for us.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I would not think the results bear out the minister's statement, at least
5, 1952	2939
Supply-Resources and Development from the figures he gave a few minutes ago showing the revenue from the tourist industry for the last few years and the amount spent in advertising for those same years. It is for that reason I have been very disturbed about this matter.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If we cannot get the information at this time, at another session I think we should have a more informative statement from the minister as to how this firm got this advertising in the first place, and how it has been able to continue to get it. A few minutes ago, in answer to one of my questions, the minister said he did not know how this firm got it in the first place. I remind him that this is not the first session we have asked questions about this matter. It does seem strange that this one firm has been getting the account all the time, and there has been no explanation of it. It seems to me that close to $100,000 could be saved if the government handled this business itself, but at any rate the next time this estimate is before us we should have a statement from the minister that will indicate clearly how this firm got the business in the first place and why it continues to get it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: I am informed that items 255 and 256 concerning the national film board also come under the jurisdiction of this minister.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I make a suggestion to the minister in regard to those two items covering the national film board? I suggest that they be allowed to stand over until the special committee appointed to study the film board has submitted its report. The same thing has been done with the items covering housing. This method would avoid duplication in the discussion and contribute to a more orderly debate on the subject, Mr. Chairman.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the committee that was examining the report of the film board has now concluded its hearings but has not yet reported. If hon. members feel it will assist them and make for a more orderly consideration of these estimates, I would have no objection to that course of action.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thank the minister, and I believe it will contribute to a more orderly discussion if the report of the committee is before the house. It would avoid duplication of the debate now, and it seems when the committee is ready to report that it would be a waste of time to discuss these items at this point.
2940	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare


Louis-René Beaudoin: Items 255 and 256 will stand for the time being.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE

[Stage Direction]
257. Departmental administration, $970,160.
Mr. Blair:: Does the minister wish to make a statement?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I thought we would deal with the items as we went along, and that it might be better if questions and answers concerned specific items. However, I am in the hands of the committee.


William Gourlay Blair: It is always a matter of regret to me that the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare are covered in a few hours some afternoon or evening. I have always felt that a committee should investigate something as important to the people of Canada as sickness and the causes of death. For that reason I have always advocated a committee. When I started to look into the statistics on the prevalence of disease and the causes of death, I came upon some rather startling information. For that reason it appeared to me that more than a few hours should be spent on these matters.
I believe the members of the house are and should be interested in such things as the prevalence of disease in the country, and especially mortality rates. To show the importance of this matter I am going to discuss something which really does not come under this department but which, nevertheless, is listed as a cause of death in Canada. I refer to the number of accidental deaths. This does not concern the minister; but nevertheless it is listed under the causes of death. I find that I have to use statistics for the year 1948, because those were the only figures available to me. I find that accidental deaths, suicides excepted, in the Dominion of Canada amounted to the rather startling figure of 7,958 in 1948. Going back to the years 1946 and 1947, I find that this figure has been steadily creeping up.
From this one figure it would be difficult *to estimate the number of deaths from motor accidents and industrial accidents or from other accidents such as drowning. Two things stand out. I think the number of motor accidents in Canada is becoming appalling. Possibly our attention has been drawn to that in the last month or so because of the casualties suffered by the members of this party. We -are glad there have been no fatal results, but at the same time the figure of 7,958 is something to which this committee should give attention.
During the last winter the number of people who were burned to death, especially little children, throughout the whole of


Canada was something that bothered us a great deal. Practically every morning when we read the newspapers we found that some family had been wiped out by fire, or little children had been burned. So far as motor accidents are concerned, I know that every department of highways, every minister of highways of every province in the dominion is doing his best, both by publicity and warning the people over the radio, to cut down the number of accidents. In spite of that we still have this ghastly toll of 7,958 deaths. I am quite sure the number of people killed in industrial accidents would be comparatively small in relation to the number killed in motor accidents. As our population increases, no doubt the number of these accidents will become greater. On Memorial day in the United States the casualty list went up to something like 400 or 450. When we are considering immigration, bringing people into this country, and thus building up our population, these seem to be such useless and unnecessary deaths. Accidents will happen; but a toll of 7,958 is something to which this committee could well give some consideration, even if it is outside the ordinary duties of the minister or this department to do something about these deaths. I therefore recommend to the committee that, allowing just a little bit of leeway, Mr. Chairman, we should have some discussion on measures to prevent this sort of thing in this country.
I now come to the principal causes of death in Canada. Though it is a rather morbid subject, we cannot fully analyse the work of the department and the position of health in Canada unless we give consideration to these figures, because these statistics are all-important in a consideration of health estimates.
At the top of the list, in the first ten main causes of death in Canada from all agencies, I find that deaths from diseases of the heart amounted to 33,901. I find that cancer is on the increase, although our population is increasing; and in the last year for which I have statistics 16,258 people died of cancer. The next largest cause of death was intracranial lesions. That, of course, might mean anything occurring, but I think it refers principally to people dying of strokes and cerebral accidents. Violent deaths were in fourth place, the matter I was considering before. Nephritis accounted for 6,805; diseases of infancy, 7,045; pneumonia, 5,700; tuberculosis-and I include in that figure tuberculosis of all kinds-4,773; disease of the arteries, 2,349; and influenza, 911. In consideration of the tenth category I gave, diseases of the arteries, possibly some of those could have been added ip with No. 3 on the

list, casualties from intracranial lesions, because many of those were owing to what we call cerebral accidents.
There are, however, some bright spots when we look over this table. Diphtheria has almost been wiped out as a cause of death. In the last year for which I have statistics 86 people died of diphtheria. Tuberculosis has been greatly reduced. With the campaign that is going on at the present time in the province of Ontario I think this figure for tuberculosis will be steadily reduced as the years go by. But as the age of the population increases the probability of death will be greater from diseases which mainly affect older people. For instance, cancer and heart disease may account for a larger proportion of the deaths than formerly. When the age to which people in Canada live is increased, it is normal to believe that in their later years some weakness will become apparent that will carry them off. According to the statistics,, an increasing number of heart cases and cancer are unfortunately making their appearance. In analysing these statistics we must bear in mind the fact that while heart disease and cancer are increasing, there may be a reason for these increasing numbers finding their way into our statistics.
As to heart disease, one is struck by the number of cases of coronary disease occurring at the present time, especially among younger people in the thirties and forties, not in the older group to which I have referred. From reading the press, we are all aware of the number of prominent businessmen or men who have taken an active part in the affairs of our country who are suddenly wiped out owing to coronary disease. I shall say something later about research with regard to this disease. It is becoming a problem; there is no doubt about that.
So far as older people are concerned, while cancer is increasing-and this would refer also to people in the younger age groups-one must remember that the population is increasing, and that possibly we are getting better methods of diagnosis than we formerly had. This fact would probably be one reason for the statistics showing an increase in the number of cases in our country.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Our statistics are better. Our techniques are better.


William Gourlay Blair: Yes. The techniques used in building up those statistics are much better. Nevertheless, making allowance for an increasing population and for the fact that there is better diagnosis with regard to this disease of cancer, we have a problem in the fact that 16,258 deaths from cancer occurred during the last year for which we have statistics. Possibly one should also look at the
Supply-Health and Welfare number of cases where, because of early treatment, deaths from this disease were avoided. In mentioning this matter I should like to refer to the prevalence of the disease in this country. In doing that I shall also refer to the necessity for opportunity for early diagnosis and treatment not only to people living in urban centres but throughout the whole of Canada.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
William Gourlay Blair: Mr. Chairman, before the dinner recess I was discussing mortality rates in Canada, and the incidence of certain diseases.
I wish now to discuss the matter of infantile mortality in Canada. I am glad to say the rate in Canada has been dropping steadily. Possibly there are good reasons for that, because increased hospitalization, as well as widespread pre-natal and post-natal care have cut down the percentages of deaths. But there are other factors involved, such as improved water supplies, improved sanitation and the pasteurization of milk, which have had a great deal to do with the cutting down of the mortality rate.
I am going to give the committee the mortality rates in other countries in the world, by way of a comparison with Canada. The first country on the list, and the one with the lowest mortality rate in the world, is Iceland. The figure I give for Iceland is the 1947 figure, whereas the others I shall give are those for 1948. Iceland had an infantile mortality rate of 22, New Zealand, 22; Sweden, 23; Australia, 28; The Netherlands, 29; Norway, 30; England and Wales, 34; the United States, 32; Denmark, 35; the Jewish portion of Israel, 35; Switzerland, 36; the white population in the Union of South Africa, 37. Then I come to Canada with a rate of 44, exclusive of the Northwest Territories.
It is interesting to compare this over-all rate of 44 with the provincial rates. In British Columbia it is 33; Prince Edward Island, 34; Ontario, 35; Alberta, 39; Nova Scotia, 39; Saskatchewan, 40; Manitoba, 41; Quebec, 54; New Brunswick, 61; and I give the rate for Newfoundland before joining the rest of Canada as standing at 74.
We come now to other countries with approximately the same rate. There is Northern Ireland at 45; Scotland, 45; Eire, 49; and then, down at the bottom of the list, Roumania with 199.

Supply-Health and Welfare
There is one notable feature in connection with this comparison of rates. We look to the United States with its large coloured population, as well as a large population in cities, in which there are slums. It has a rate of 32, as compared with our rate of 44. This gives us something to think about, I suggest. It gives us something to shoot at. In spite of the fact that we are doing what we can in this country, and that our rate is steadily dropping, this difference of 12 points over the United States rate is worth considering, because it shows that we must be lax in some way, when we compare the figure for this country with that of the great country to the south.
There are certain things that come to our notice when we consider causes of death in infantile mortality rates. Communicable diseases have been dropping steadily. The loss rate in 1948 was 815. Pneumonia remains about the same, with 2,220 children dying in that year from pneumonia and bronchitis.
But there is one other disease which stares us in the face, showing a casualty rate of 1,472 from diarrhoea and enteritis. Perhaps that might be improved as we proceed with our program of better water supplies, pasteurization and better sanitation. I feel more could be done in the matter of premature births, because there we had a casualty list of 3,892 in 1948. But from all causes-and I have not included some of the others- we have an infantile deaths casualty list of 15,164 in Canada.
I remember stating before, and I state again, that I think many of these children- and we shall refer to them as babies, because most of them were in their first year of life-could have been saved. Quite a large percentage could have been saved, and no doubt will be saved as we proceed with our program.
It is interesting to note the improvement shown in the past 25 years. Of the children born between 1944 and 1948, approximately 72,000 who would have died at the rate prevailing between 1926 and 1930 lived to their first birthday. So I feel we can go ahead with our program, although not feeling satisfied with it, because there is room for great improvement. We bring people into this country. As I remember stating once before, if the 15,164 children could be saved they would be the best immigrants we could bring to this country.
Mental diseases continue on the upgrade so far as numbers are concerned. It is rather disturbing to note that on December 31, 1948, we had 55,858 people confined to mental institutions. I think in this program we could save many of those people

before they ever get to the institutions. There was a time when mental institutions simply gave custodial care, but now a large percentage of those who enter are coming out cured. With the program carried on in the schools and mental health clinics it is possible that many of those people would never reach the stage where they would have to go into institutions.
Again it is alarming that, even though our population is increasing, mental disease seems to be increasing at a faster rate. Our great neighbour to the south gave some alarming statistics at the time of the examination of their recruits. It disclosed that the number of young men being refused entrance into the army because of nervous and mental conditions is alarming. I hope that the same condition will not be found to exist in Canada in case there is a general call to the colours in the event of war. There is a great lack of trained psychiatrists in Canada. I would hope that more of the young men graduating would enter this field, because there is a great need for their services in order to cut down the alarming increase in patients entering our hospitals suffering from mental diseases.
I come now to the matter of hospital beds. Due to the program of grants for hospital beds, inaugurated by the province of Ontario, as well as the assistance given by the dominion government for the same purpose, many new beds have been added but there is still a grave shortage in almost every hospital. There is also a great shortage of nurses, and some program should be arranged to attract more young women to the nursing profession. If the profession were made more attractive I am sure many more young women would enter training. You cannot operate hospital beds without nurses. More nurses will be required for mental and other specialized hospitals, as well as in industry. As we go on increasing services of this type there will be a greater demand for nurses.
Hospital executives are finding increasing difficulty in maintaining their institutions. There was a time when hospitals depended upon donations and fees received from patients, and were regarded as institutions supported by philanthropy. Our health plans are broadening out and we are bettering conditions in Canada. The time has come when hospitals should receive more aid from the provincial and federal governments. We have reached a period when they must be regarded as a public utility. It has always been amazing to me that suffering and misery should be considered as something to be alleviated mainly by philanthropy or grants.

Hospital boards are mainly in the red so far as their finances are concerned. They are running behind each year, and finding it increasingly difficult to keep their institutions on an even keel. Hospital executives feel that it will create a bad impression if they keep on raising fees. That just cannot be done. Fees have had to be raised, and in doing this the cost of sickness has been placed far beyond the means of the average man. Quite often a man on a moderate salary has illness in his family requiring a long period of hospitalization, and he soon finds himself in a financial position from which it is pretty hard to recover. Something will have to be done to maintain our hospitals, and I tie in with that the high cost of hospitalization. We must continue to try to reduce our mortality rate. If we are to reduce our infant mortality rate it should be made possible for people to enter hospitals at rates they can afford to pay. These costs are rapidly getting beyond the power of the average person to pay.
This committee should consider seriously the position in which our hospitals are at the present time in spite of the grants given by the federal government and by some of the provinces, including my own province of Ontario. But every province in Canada is not in the same position and we must realize that any citizen of Canada, no matter in what province he lives, is as important to the whole of Canada as the citizen living in a province which has the financial ability to carry out certain health plans.
This is a most important matter. I find these mortality rates most appalling, and we should do more about them. We should institute a program; and in considering that program more time should be given by this committee, instead of passing these items in just a few hours at every session of parliament.
I mentioned one matter which I said did not come within the realm of the minister's portfolio, our high accident rate; but we also have very high infant mortality rates. Many young citizens are being lost to our great dominion. These are matters in which this committee should be greatly interested. When an accident occurs a coroner's inquest is held and the matter is thoroughly investigated, but the fact that so many babies die during the first year of life is something far more important and should receive much more consideration.
Hon. members can find the various mortality lists in the Canada Year Book. They will find the rates for the various diseases and how the different areas are affected.
Supply-Health and Welfare Without naming any particular province, there are some which are somewhat-I do not like to use this word-backward and whose mortality rates are higher than others. A citizen in any province in Canada is just as important as any other citizen in any over-all plan.
There are special cases in connection with which I should like to make an appeal. For years I have talked about arthritis, but new groups are coming forward for various diseases which require special attention. One which is seemingly becoming more prevalent is disseminated sclerosis. I receive a great many letters on this matter. I know plans are being made by people who are interested, to do something about this dread disease. I received an invitation the other day to attend a meeting in Ottawa to discuss this matter. We are gradually becoming aware of the number of people Who are suffering from this condition.
I am also interested in the rehabilitation of the victims of infantile paralysis. We have not yet found a cure for infantile paralysis, but I am proud of the efforts being made by the province of Ontario to rehabilitate the victims of this disease. Every child suffering from infantile paralysis is sent into an approved hospital where there are members of the staff trained in the rehabilitation of these cases. It is simply amazing to see these cases when they go into some of the hospitals-the Ottawa Civic hospital is one that is doing a splendid job-and when they come out. It is interesting to see a child go in with a very marked paralysis and come out some months later with no visible signs of paralysis. If this plan could be carried out in all the provinces of Canada it would prevent a great deal of crippling of little children who are afflicted with this dread disease. I am proud of the efforts made by -the province of Ontario, but possibly other provinces are not as financially able to assist. I think statistics will bear out that the way the province of Ontario has handled this disease has been most worthy and has prevented a great deal of crippling. All expenses of the patient are paid. The province pays the cost of all hospitalization and specialized treatment up to the point where patients have gone as far toward recovery as they possibly can. Then they are treated later at outdoor clinics. Instructions are given to parents on how to carry on massage and various exercises.
If this program could be put into effect all across Canada I am perfectly sure we could rehabilitate many of these children and restore them to perfect health. I remember the old days when we had nothing whatever
2944	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare to offer. We used to try some massage after the acute part of the disease had passed away, and we had many cripples. I have seen cases nowadays come out with no apparent paralysis and make a complete recovery. Before this program was instituted I am sure they would have been crippled.
I mentioned before the dinner hour the matter of coronary thrombosis, and that brings me to the question of research. The high rate of casualties in cancer, tuberculosis, coronary thrombosis and other heart diseases demands that we along with other countries keep up our research. We have a brilliant record in the Dominion of Canada in the field of research. Our scientists have contributed a great deal to the cure of certain diseases that were formerly thought to be hopeless. I think we should do our share in the granting of money for research in such diseases, and especially the ones I have mentioned, coronary thrombosis and arteriosclerosis. Every day the problem of coronary thrombosis is before us.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to mention in passing that so far as all these matters are concerned, research funds have been made available, as my hon. friend knows, out of the grant.


William Gourlay Blair: I am aware that research funds have been granted, but I am calling for more and more research to help Canadians who suffer from these conditions. So far as coronary thrombosis is concerned, there is not a day when we are not made aware of this disease having affected people in our circle of friends or prominent men in the life of the country. There must be a cause. There must be something we can do in order to halt the increase in the number of people who are being carried off by this disease.
I come now to the problem of our aged people. It is true that under legislation passed by this parliament the old age pension came into effect. It is doing a wonderful job so far as helping our aged citizens is concerned, but when they become disabled sometimes it is difficult to find places for them. They become chronically ill or are considered ill by reason of their age, and we find them in public hospitals and institutions, places where they really should not be.
I think the time is coming when we will have to give more thorough consideration to the building of hospitals for those who are chronically ill, and especially for our aged citizens.
Some organizations are doing work along the line of propaganda of a type that warns people about the danger of certain of the diseases I have mentioned. I do not mean the type of propaganda you sometimes hear


on the radio or see in the press that really frightens people. The desire is not to frighten people but to make them more aware of their own physical condition so they will take an interest. This applies principally to the early diagnosis of cancer, and it might apply to tuberculosis. Even in the province of Ontario, where we have mass X-rays and mobile X-ray clinics, it is sometimes difficult to get the odd person to have an X-ray. They say they are afraid that something might be found. That is the reason they do not want to have a chest X-ray. These are all things that I suggest to the committee we should carry out. It is a mark to shoot at. We should try to cut down the incidence of these diseases, to cut down, as we have been doing, the incidence of infantile mortality. Cut down the rate of maternal mortality. Keep up the good work we have been doing in tuberculosis, and above all let us have research into some of these diseases whose cause and cure are unknown.
That should be the basis of any health plan in the Dominion of Canada. We should establish new forms of treatment that would be available for every citizen. We should make the opportunity for treatment available to every citizen. I place these matters before the committee knowing that the committee is sympathetic. Again I voice the opinion that it is unfortunate that a committee of the house could not be allowed to help the department by considering what more could be done to cut down the incidence of diseases and the mortality rate.


Mr. Pouliot:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the minister one question. I am sure he will reply, and it will save a lot of correspondence between us. I have received representations from a few of my electors asking that the family allowance should be double what it is now. Would he be kind enough to tell me what is the official answer of the department so that I may have it published in the local weekly down home.


Louis-René Beaudoin: At this stage we are having a general discussion. Hon. members may ask questions, but they will have to wait until the general discussion is finished for the minister to reply.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, members in all parts of the house will agree that one of the greatest disappointments at this session of parliament is the failure of the government to take any steps in connection with the establishment of a nation-wide program of health insurance. As the committee knows, in June, 1951, the Minister of National Health and Welfare indicated to us that it was his hope that at the 1952 session of parliament we would have a special committee to study

all aspects of health insurance. There have been many examples of committees of the house which have been simply a means of delaying action, but some of us hoped that a committee on health insurance would not fall into that category. The reason we dared have that hope was because of the success that resulted from a similar committee in 1950 on old age security. Indeed I think it is fair to say that the idea of having a special committee on health insurance was born in that committee on old age security. The terms of reference of that committee in 1950 limited us to the subject of old age security, but other matters in the field of social legislation were constantly impressed upon us as requiring attention. One of them was the need for health insurance. I am sure it is correct for me to say that the members of that committee on old age security felt that it would be most useful if, with the least possible delay, we could have had a similar committee on health insurance.
It was, therefore, a matter of keen disappointment, which I am sure has been felt not only on this side of the house but by many members on the government side, when during the first week of this session the Minister of National Health and Welfare in answering one of my questions indicated that the government had decided there was to be no committee on health insurance at this session of parliament. For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I take the opportunity in this general discussion of the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare to impress upon the minister, and through him the government, the urgent and crying need for health insurance for the people of this country. Not only is it an urgent need; it is a subject about which a great deal has been said, written, and studied across many years. In fact, Mr. Chairman, a good deal of politics has been played with this question of health insurance, dating right back to 1919. In August of that year the Liberal party held its last national convention but one, and included in its platform a pledge to bring in health insurance, along with certain other items.
That was 33 years ago, and we are still waiting for the implementation of that promise. The greatest amount of activity with regard to health insurance, at least in terms of talk by the Liberal party, took place in the forties, particularly in the early forties during the second world war. For example, in the speech from the throne that was read on January 28, 1943, as recorded at page 2 of Hansard for that year, there is this paragraph:
My ministers believe that a comprehensive national scheme of social insurance should be
Supply-Health and Welfare worked out at once which will constitute a charter of social security for the whole of Canada.
The government-
That was the Liberal government which we still have with us.
-accordingly proposes to recommend the early appointment of a select committee to examine and report on the most practicable measures of social insurance, and the steps which will be required to ensure their inclusion in a national plan. Among matters which will be referred to this committee for study and consideration will be the establishment of a national system of health insurance.
That was in January, 1943. If one looks at the speech from the throne in January, 1944, we find the promise repeated again in these words taken from page 2 of Hansard for that year:
When suitable agreements are reached with the provinces, my ministers will be prepared to recommend measures to provide for federal assistance in a nation-wide system of health insurance . . .
Now, Mr. Chairman, during those years 1943 and 1944 a number of other things were done. We have, for example, the Marsh report. The official title is "Social security for Canada, prepared by Dr. L. C. Marsh for the advisory committee on reconstruction". Hon. members will recall that this was at the time of the well-known Beveridge report in the United Kingdom, and it seems that the government here felt it should match the Beveridge report. So Dr. Marsh was called upon to produce this report on rather short order, and it was made available to the special committee on social security which met in 1943. It has a number of pages dealing with the question of health insurance and urging the importance of early enactment of legislation in that field.
We also had in that same session of 1943 this voluminous book entitled "Health insurance-report of the advisory committee on health insurance, appointed under order in council P.C. 836, dated February 5, 1942." It contains a mass of information about matters related to health in Canada and other countries; and it also contains a draft bill for health insurance in Canada which later was incorporated in the report of a special committee of this house, which was tabled in the house and which may be found in the Journals of the session of 1944.
In other words, Mr. Chairman, during these years as evidenced by the speeches from the throne, and as these documents show, a great deal of attention was being given to the question of health insurance, and the people of Canada were led to believe that a nationwide health insurance program was just around the corner.
We had these moves in the direction of health insurance not only here in the House of Commons. A resolution on the matter was

Supply-Health and Welfare passed by the national Liberal federation in September, 1943, which read in these terms:
The Liberal federation commends the government . . . for the steps already taken to prepare the way for a comprehensive system of health insurance and recommends inclusion of health insurance in a nation-wide scheme of social insurance.
Well, Mr. Chairman, despite all this activity -this printing of books and preparing of reports and a draft bill-nothing was done. The draft bill was never introduced in the house and certain questions which I asked this year would seem to indicate it has gathered considerable dust since that time.
The next important step in this direction came in 1945, when the dominion-provincial conference met after the election of that year. Hon. members will recall that very prominent among the proposals of the government of Canada to the governments of the provinces were proposals for health insurance. These proposals appear on pages 28 to 31 of the green book entitled "Proposals of the government of Canada". There are a few paragraphs from these proposals which I feel I should put on the record. I am quoting from page 29:
Health insurance has been widely adopted because it is regarded as the best means of meeting and of distributing fairly the costs of illness and, in conjunction with preventive services, of improving the general health of the nation. Specifically:
(1)	Health insurance enables the cost of illness to be prepaid, so that by paying regular sums when they are well people are able to meet the costs of illness when they are ill without being financially crippled.
(2)	Health insurance not only enables individuals to prepay their medical costs, but does this in such a way as to secure a wide pooling of risks and distribution of costs in much the same manner as any other form of insurance.
(3)	The provision of funds by all persons within a large area makes it possible for hospital and medical services to people in that area to be planned and administered more efficiently and economically than could be done by any other method.
(4)	The provision of better facilities for treatment and advice also operates to reduce the total incidence of disease and preventable death. Health insurance must be accompanied by adequate public health measures of a preventive character, but health insurance itself also provides important preventive benefits.
(5)	Health insurance permits the steady extension of health services into areas not previously covered, and the rapid application everywhere of new methods and services as they are discovered and developed.
I am putting that section of the federal government's proposals on the record at this time not only to indicate the very close and detailed attention which was given to the problem before these proposals were made, but also to point out that despite the argument that is sometimes used that we must get our health facilities first and wait until after that before we establish health insurance, it was contended in the paragraphs I just

read that the establishment of health insurance actually facilitates the development of the health services that are necessary to a complete program. That is our contention.
I cite as another example what has happened because of Blue Cross and similar types of programs. The very fact that they have come into being, the very fact it has been possible for many more people than was formerly the case to have hospital care, has played a part in creating a greater demand for hospital beds and has helped facilitate the development of health services,
The Liberal government has continued to talk about health insurance; yet that set of proposals was made nearly seven years ago and we still do not have a health insurance program. The proposals in 1945 were spelled out in considerable detail, and the amount of money involved was worked out. The government was prepared, in fact, to put the sum of $150 million into health insurance. That was the federal government's proposal in 1945.
I know we have had a good many arguments as to who was to blame for the break-up of the 1945 conference. Every time we raise some of these points it is suggested that that is the reason these matters have not been proceeded with. I would point out that some of the things that were proposed in 1945 have been implemented since, even though it took a great deal of activity from this side of the house, such as the removal of the means test from the old age pension. It is also true that despite the fact that an overall agreement regarding taxation matters between the federal and provincial governments has not been achieved, agreements with eight of the individual provinces have been made. In my view the break-up of the conference is no excuse for the federal government having failed to go ahead with the nation-wide program of health insurance.
Subsequent to these proposals, every time we have raised these matters we have had some sort of promise from the government to the effect that it was still its intention to bring in health insurance when it could. For example, during the debate on the minister's estimates in the session of 1947, as found in Hansard for June 20 of that year, some of of us raised the question as to why we were not making more progress with respect to health insurance. The minister said, as recorded at page 4423:
I can only repeat that we are engaging the full time of at least six persons in the department with four additional persons who have other duties to perform. When we have the type of conference with the provinces which we envisage we shall be prepared at that conference to submit details in respect to the studies we have been making and

are making and to bring about at the earliest possible moment the realization of a health insurance scheme.
I point out that in those promises that have been repeated time and time again, reference has been made not just to the health grants about which the government boasts so much, but specific reference was made to a nationwide program of health insurance as part of a nation-wide program of social insurance. Yet despite these repeated promises we still have no program of health insurance for the people of Canada.
Some members in this house will remember the day in May, 1948, when the late Mr. King, as prime minister, announced the health grants program. He told us then very clearly, and it has been stated to us since, that that program was to be the foundation of an over-all program of health insurance. We welcomed and applauded the announcement Mr. King made that day, even though we recognized that we were getting just twenty cents on the dollar so far as the 1945 proposals were concerned, as contained in the green book from which I quoted a few minutes ago.
I have in my hand a copy of the front page of a newspaper that is not unfriendly to the Liberal government, the Toronto Daily Star of May 15, 1948.


Daniel Aloysius Riley: An independent newspaper.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I missed that.


Daniel Aloysius Riley: I said "an independent newspaper".


Donald Methuen Fleming: Do you wish it were?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hear Liberals on the other side say they wished this paper did not support them quite as much as it does.


Daniel Aloysius Riley: That was a Flemingism you heard.


Stanley Howard Knowles: At any rate, this newspaper's attitude toward Mr. King's announcement of May, 1948 was characterized by this banner headline, "Can't Wait for Ontario-King" Another heading: "Delayed health plan as long as we could for Ontario-Mr. King". Another heading: "New plan gives every individual Canadian ticket to healthy life". As one reads the articles by Borden Spears and Robert Taylor on the front page of this newspaper it is clear that these correspondents for the Toronto Daily Star thought this announcement of Mr. King's really envisaged health insurance as just around the corner. In fact they even got a bit political about it in a story down in the lower left-hand corner which is headlined, "Plan seen '49 vote move; C.C.F., Tories embarrassed". This was a story which suggested that the purpose of Mr. King's announcement was to steal the
Supply-Health and Welfare platforms of other parties, and that this announcement that health insurance was just around the corner would do the trick in the 1949 election. Well, Mr. Chairman, maybe it did the trick in the election, but the people are beginning to think it was a trick because there is still no health insurance, despite the great ado that was made at that time over the health grants program.
I repeat that we welcomed that program with enthusiasm. We are delighted with what has been done under it, but it is just twenty per cent of what was promised in 1945, and there has been no implementation of the promise that we would have health insurance.
I move on to Hansard for June 20, 1950. This was another occasion when we were debating health insurance on the present minister's estimates. He gave us another of those assurances that we are going to get there some day. These were his words on June 20, 1950, as found at page 3906 of Hansard for that year:
We are making most careful studies of this whole problem. We are waiting now for the results of the important surveys that are being conducted by every one of the provincial governments. The cost figures that will come out of those surveys are an integral part of anything that might be done. I want to assure my friend that we are making most serious studies. As he knows, we have brought into the department a number of individuals, one of whom has had previous experience in the matter of health insurance with one of the provinces. We are constantly encouraging, through that division and through our research division, a most careful study of this matter.
I am sure if I had not told the minister those were his words, he would have recognized them. They are the sort of words he has given us so often: The matter is being studied, or it is being given careful consideration.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Good thoughts expressed in elegant language.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, good thoughts expressed in elegant language, but still no health insurance; and that despite the fact that it has been a good thought expressed in elegant language ever since 1919. We are kept waiting for the election after the next. That seems to be the Liberal slogan: The election after the next we will win on health insurance. I can tell the government that some day the trick will be turned.
In the same year from which I have just quoted some of the minister's elegant words we had the tabling of the report of the special committee on old age security. I have already indicated that, despite the fact that its terms of reference were limited to old age security, we found it impossible in that committee to refrain from discussing

Supply-Health and Welfare a number of other related questions. In fact we not only discussed them; we made reference to them in our report. For example, on pages 103 and 104 of that report we had a section entitled "Other Claims to Priority", and there are several paragraphs which speak of the fact that old age security has to be looked at in relation to the total problem of social security. One of the other problems which we said was most important was that of health insurance. For example, let me read paragraph 25 at page 104:
Nor has the committee overlooked other social security programs which have been widely advocated such as health insurance, invalidity pensions, etc. These are not, of course, matters which come within the committee's terms of reference. Furthermore, the committee has not been able to obtain precise data which would enable it to assess accurately the magnitude of the cost of programs of this nature. It has been estimated, however, that the over-all cost of a comprehensive system of health insurance would probably be not less than $300 million annually, although it must be added that a large proportion of such an amount would represent not a new burden on the people of Canada, but merely a rechannelling of existing expenditures on various forms of health care.
I have read that paragraph and I referred to what went on in that committee to indicate that in the committee on old age security we gave thought to this question of health insurance and made references to it in our report, which was unanimous. I repeat what I said a moment ago, namely that I am sure most if not all of those who were on that committee thought it would not be long until we obtained a similar committee to go into this whole question of health insurance. Some of us kept asking for that committee, and finally on June 21, 1951, as recorded in Hansard at page 4462, the minister intervened in a debate which, under two or three headings, had been going on for three days in relation to this question of health insurance, and this is what he said:
We will examine that problem,-
The reference is to health insurance.
-and in the regular session of 1952 I hope that we may be able-and I think I may go further than that and say that we are giving consideration to the matter-to set up a parliamentary committee to examine this whole problem.
I recognize the fact that what the minister said there was in two parts. He did not say categorically, "We shall have the committee"; but he did say categorically, "I hope that we may be able to set up a parliamentary committee to examine this whole problem."


Paul Joseph James Martin: No; I did not say that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute. I read the whole of the sentence first; and then to make clear that the minister was saying two 
things, I left out in what I just said- but I intend to bring it in now-the part between the dashes; in other words, the part in parenthesis. The minister expressed his hope that we might have the committee. That was one statement. The other was in parenthesis when he said:
-and1 I think I may go further than that and say that we are giving consideration to the matter-


Mr. Marlin:: In order that the matter will be correctly stated, may I say this. I know what my hon. friend's argument is going to-be. That statement is clear. What I said there was that I hoped we would be able to-give consideration to the setting up of a committee. The words are clear. We have given the matter consideration, and I have given the reasons it has not been set up. My hon. friend must not say the words mean something that I did not intend them to-mean.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I have the floor. I do not want this to go further without getting on the record precisely what the minister said. He did not say that he hoped to give consideration to the matter. He said he hoped we would have the committee and in parenthesis he said that they would give consideration to the matter. Let me put the statement on the record again, direct from Hansard, in his own words, including the part that is there between the dashes:
We will examine that problem, and in the regular session of 1952 I hope that we may be able-and I think I may go further than that and say that we are giving consideration to the matter-to set up a parliamentary committee to examine this whole problem.
Mr. Chairman, the -country thought that was what was going to happen. Indeed, those of us who have been disappointed by many committees in the past dared to hope that the work of that committee would result in steps in the direction of health insurance, even as the committee on old age security resulted in positive steps in the direction of new old age pension legislation. Hon. members know that when we arrived back here this year, on Friday, February 29, 1952, as recorded at page 18 of Hansard, I asked this question of the minister:
Will the special parliamentary committee on. health insurance, which the minister on June 21 last said he hoped to set up at this session, be established at an early date?
The minister's reply was:
My hon. friend did not give me the usual notice,, and possibly on that account my answer will not be as complete as it otherwise would be.
There is an interjection of mine to the effect that he had had eight months to think about it, and then the minister said:
I did say, as my hon. friend said in part, that the government would give consideration to the-

setting up of such a committee. The hon. member did not use those words when he put his question to me. The government has given careful consideration to this matter and has come to the conclusion not to set up such a committee at this time.
Mr. Chairman, I regarded that statement- as I am sure many hon. members of the house did, including members on the government side-as one of the most disappointing replies we have had to questions on the orders of the day, for we had counted on that committee.


Mr. Blue:: The hon. member is wound up tonight.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, what is the situation at the present time? Support for health insurance is growing in many parts of this country. For example, everyone recalls the strong support it was given last fall all over this province of Ontario by the then leader of the provincial Liberal party, one Walter Thomson.


Donald Buchanan Blue: He was a good man.


Mr. Hees:: A fine boy. He was the best friend we ever had.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: He was the best friend the Conservatives ever had.


George Harris Hees: I hope you can keep him going.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Hear, hear.


Donald Buchanan Blue: The shades may come down on you too.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I hope you do not forget that I am the one who has the floor. We now have Mr. Lapalme, the Liberal leader in the province of Quebec, coming out with a Liberal program for that province. It was published in a striking advertisement in the Montreal Gazette of Tuesday, June 3, 1952, at page 21. He has eight points against Duplessis and eleven points for himself.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It will not be enough for him to win.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Point No. 7 for Mr. Lapalme, the Liberal leader, is health insurance. It is short, but there it is. So we have the Liberal party in Ontario and the Liberal party in the province of Quebec both committed to programs of health insurance.
In addition we have had a number of provincial health surveys tabled by the minister during the last few weeks. A number of them have gone the other way but two in particular-one from Saskatchewan and one from Alberta-have strongly recommended a nation-wide program of health insurance, with provision for provincial participation as fast as individual provinces wish to participate in such a plan. I strongly urge upon the government that consideration be given to just such
Supply-Health and Welfare a plan of operation, and that there be no further delay in going ahead with this matter.
As the minister knows, a number of questions about this subject have been placed on the order paper at this session, a number of them in my name and some in the names of other members. From the answers to those questions we have obtained a good deal of information. Some of the sessional papers were tabled just today; hence I have not had time to collate all the information contained in them, but that information is extremely interesting and significant. I find, for example, that a very large number of people are already covered to some extent under Blue Cross and provincial schemes, which makes it clear that it would not be breaking brand new ground, not launching into a field in which nothing is being done, to go into a nationwide program of health insurance. It is simply a case of expanding upon something we now have, expanding upon a principle that has been proven to be worth while, and making it available to all Canadians regardless of their individual financial position.
It has now come to our knowledge that the minister's department apparently expected a committee, and has done a great deal of work upon it. I have on my desk two monographs from the research division of the Department of National Health and Welfare, one of which is entitled "Health Insurance in Sweden", social security series memorandum No. 10. The other is "Health Insurance in Denmark", social security memorandum No. 9, revised. On the back cover page of each of these memoranda I find a list of some 15 documents which have been prepared. They include social security legislation and old age legislation in various countries; and they also include health insurance legislation in those countries, plus surveys of physicians and dentists in Canada.
One of the points which interests me is that these booklets are prepared in precisely the same form as were the booklets prepared for our old age security committee by the same research division of the Department of National Health and Welfare. This suggests to me that the officials in the minister's department not only expected the committee, but are ready for a study of health insurance to be made by members of the House of Commons. In fact one of the sessional papers, No. 85A, tabled on Monday, April 7, 1952, in response to questions of mine, indicates that the Department of National Health and Welfare has considerable information on this whole question.
I also asked at that time this question: "Has there been consultation with the provinces

Supply-Health and Welfare concerning a program of health insurance?" The answer to that was:
Yes, at each meeting of the dominion council of health composed of the federal and provincial deputy ministers of health.
Thus the documents I have referred to, which have been prepared in the minister's department, and the answers in these various sessional papers on my desk all show quite clearly that the department has done a great deal of work on the question; and I commend the minister for that. There was a day when, on the item of health insurance studies, we criticized the minister strongly because he was not even using the money we were voting for this purpose. But now they are using it. They have done the studying. They have sent officials of the department to other countries. They know the story. They could call a committee together even now, before the end of this session, and lay a great deal of information and material before it which its members could study, and on the basis of which we could come to some conclusion.
I said a few moments ago that at least two of the provincial health survey reports have strongly recommended a nation-wide program of health insurance. For example, I hold in my hand a copy of the Saskatchewan health survey report, which was tabled by the minister not long ago. At pages 225 and 226 there are recommendations with respect to this question. It states:
Now that the health grants and especially the grant for hospital construction have paved the way for a health insurance program, there is no longer cause for further delay in bringing the benefits of health insurance to the people of Canada. It is recommended that:
The federal government should extend the scope of the national health grants program by adopting immediately a national health insurance program.
In the interests of assuring uniform benefits for all Canadians, a national health insurance system should be established with administration decentralized to regions corresponding to the several provinces or delegated to official provincial health agencies.
In the event it is decided that health insurance is to be organized and administered on a provincial rather than on a national level, the federal government should adopt immediately the provisions for a national health insurance program as contained in the proposals to the provinces in 1945. The federal government should establish basic standards to be met by the provinces as conditions for receiving the grants in order to provide at least minimum uniform benefits throughout all Canada, with reciprocity of benefits for insured persons moving from one province to another.
In connection with the suggestion made by the Saskatchewan health survey committee to the effect that if the federal government is not ready to launch a program immediately effective in the whole of Canada, at least they should launch the kind of program that would permit provincial participation, may I remind the government of

the stand Mr. Mackenzie King took on April 15, 1926, in relation to old age pensions which is similar to the stand we are asking the government to take now. On that day Mr. King, as reported at pages 2501 and 2502 of Hansard, had been asked by the Conservative opposition to have the old age pension bill delayed. This was the reply of the then prime minister:
The bill has been prepared with a view to avoiding delays and in order to enable any provincial government that may care to enact at once, with respect to old age pensions, legislation in conformity with the requirements of this measure to take advantage of the proposed scheme. If some provinces do not desire to pass such legislation, that determination will in no way affect the situation except in so far as they are concerned. But as a federal government we want to show our readiness at the earliest moment to assist any province as soon as it is prepared to enact legislation along the lines here laid down.
I am simply asking this Liberal government to take the same position with respect to health insurance that Mr. King took in 1926 with respect to old age pensions. His stand then was that if there was some province that did not wish to go ahead with old age pensions, that was not to be an excuse for denying old age pensions to people in provinces that were prepared to go ahead with it.
Today some of the provinces are ready to join with the federal government in the establishment of health insurance. I suggest the people of those provinces should not be asked to wait because some other provinces are not yet prepared. The time for action has come. A committee would not now be good enough; it is time for legislation. The time has come for the government to bring in a nation-wide program of health insurance. And in the light of the situation at the moment the most realistic and best scheme would be one that provides for provincial participation just as fast as individual provinces are prepared to participate.
I will let it go at that for the time being. The minister will hear more from some of us on this matter as time goes on, because we feel it is one of the most important questions before this country. We deplore the way in which politics has been played with this question since 1919. We deplore the continuing delay, the continuing refusal to deal with it. We would like to know what or who it is that stands in the way of action on this important question; and we urge the government to take action on it without delay.


James Joseph McCann: May I ask the hon. member a question? In the light of the present budget and defence expenditures, how would he propose financing it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hope the Minister of
National Revenue heard the paragraph I read from the report of the committee on old age security, which pointed out that a program of health insurance would be largely a rechannelling of the money that Canadians, either out of their own pockets or in groups, are already spending on health. The figures tabled today by the Minister of National Health and Welfare in response to my question show that as Canadians we are now spending on hospitalization and doctors' bills some $400 million. A health insurance program would not cost much more, if any more, than that sum of money. A health insurance program would be a means of rechannelling on a more sensible basis the efforts and money we are now expending so it would be spread over the entire community and so all Canadians would have the benefit of health care whether or not as individuals they could afford it.


Robert Fair: Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of going into a detailed survey of the health of the Canadian people, but I do want to say again that our people are the most important thing we have in this country. We should do everything possible to look after the health of our people, particularly in the way of research, as has been pointed out so well this afternoon and this evening. Research into cancer, tuberculosis and other diseases which are causing so many deaths each year should be carried on more extensively than is being done at the present time.
I want to renew my request to the minister to bring in legislation as soon as possible to take care of the physically incapacitated. Many of us who have the use of our limbs and senses find it difficult at times to make a living, and we should remember that those who are physically incapacitated find it most difficult to do so. Many of them are a heavy burden on their relatives and friends. I hope the minister will take cognizance of my request and, if not at this session, at least at the next session introduce legislation to provide pensions for these people.


George Harris Hees: Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has said, the Liberal party have had health insurance in their platform ever since 1919. As far as I can see, and as far as the people in my riding to whom I have talked can see, we are just about as close to having health insurance today as we were 33 years ago.
Ever since 1919 the people of Canada have been promised before each election that they would have health insurance as a reward for voting Liberal. As soon as each election was 55704-186
Supply-Health and Welfare over, health insurance was wrapped up in mothballs and carefully put away until the next election.
As late as the recent by-elections we saw health insurance once again making its expected appearance. In the Toronto Daily Star of May 14 last we saw a large and handsome picture of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration posing with the Liberal candidate in Ontario riding, under the banner headline: "Foresees Health Insurance".
As the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has said, judging by the results in the by-elections the people are getting wise to what used to be evergreen bait. Perhaps it is losing some of its allure because it did not seem to have its usual resiliency in the byelections just over. It seems to me that whenever an election comes along the Liberal party look into the crystal ball. They see everything clearly, and there they see health insurance, no doubt about it. However, just as soon as the election is over, the crystal ball clouds up again, and health insurance fades into the distance.
Whenever the Minister of National Health and Welfare is asked when the government is going to bring in health insurance, he usually replies by alluding to the setting up of a committee to give the matter more study. I happened to be in Calgary last September when the minister was there, and though I did not see him personally, I read the report of his speech in the papers the next morning. According to the report, health insurance was going to be set up practically immediately. You could just see health insurance coming right along.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Has the hon. member my words there? I would like to hear them.


George Harris Hees: I have not, but they made an indelible impression upon my mind.


Stanley Howard Knowles: They were the minister's usual elegant words.


George Harris Hees: The government has in its possession all the information it needs to make a decision on this matter, and present a plan to parliament. In fact it has all the information that would be presented to a committee if one were set up. If a committee were set up, everyone knows that with its large Liberal majority, it would simply be a rubber stamp for the minister, and a time-consuming device to fill in the time between now and the next election. Then when that time arrived, we all know that health insurance would once again be used as election bait. If by some colossal mischance the Liberal party were again returned to power, it is just as certain as we are sitting here that

Supply-Health and Welfare health insurance would again be wrapped up in mothballs, and put away for another live years.
A question I want to ask, a question that the people I represent want to ask is this: Why is it necessary to carry on this prolonged double-dealing with the people of Canada on this vitally important matter? The people want health insurance, and the Canadian Medical Association is in favour of it, as evidenced by a statement of its president when speaking in Toronto on May 25 of last year. On that occasion the Canadian Press reported Dr. Gosse as follows:
He told the Ontario Medical Association that he favoured co-operation between citizens, doctors and government in developing health plans. He said the Canadian Medical Association believes citizens should pay their own contributions if able to do so, with governments bearing the cost for persons unable to contribute.
When speaking in the house last year, I stated that in my opinion the plan in operation in Great Britain would be unsatisfactory for this country. I then went on to outline the plan which had proved to be so successful in Sweden for the past 25 years and which I believed would do an excellent job in this country.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend has referred to the Swedish scheme, and in order to know exactly what his position is I should like to know whether he is in favour of the new act in Sweden or the situation that has existed there for the last 23 years. Could he tell me which of the two schemes he favours? It would help me a great deal because I would like to compare what he has just said with statements that have been made by other members of his party with regard to this problem.


George Harris Hees: I believe in the scheme which has been in successful operation for the last 25 years, with any modifications which may have been brought in as improvements on the plan. I have talked both to doctors and patients from Sweden and they tell me they believe it is a very successful plan from all points of view.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member is not in favour of the new act?


George Harris Hees: I am afraid I am not familiar with the new act. I am familiar with the plan which proved successful in that country for a period of 25 years. I think anything that is satisfactory for 25 years is a good plan. That does not say it cannot be improved. If it has been improved, then that is something again.


An hon. Member:: What is that plan?


George Harris Hees: The plan I suggested would not interfere with the present doctor-patient


relationship but would simply provide an easier method for people to pay their bills for the health services they receive.


An hon. Member:: Louder.


George Harris Hees: It calls for the patient to pay 25 per cent of the doctor, dentist or hospital bill with the remaining 75 per cent to be paid out of a health insurance fund maintained by regular contributions by all those who are financially able to contribute. The 25 per cent which is paid by the patient-


Murdo William Martin: It is just the other way around.


George Harris Hees: -removes the something for nothing aspect of the British plan, which has caused those who do not actually need treatment to flock to the doctors' offices in Great Britain. They have done so in such large numbers that the treatment they can receive is, of necessity, superficial. On the other hand, the 25 per cent which the patient pays is not so much as to impose a severe financial' burden on the individual or on the family. It also ensures that the cost of the plan is kept to a minimum, because only those who actually need treatment apply for it. I ask the minister to say what he thinks of this plan or any modification of it. I am not an expert on health insurance. I am here to learn.


Murdo William Martin: I will answer him right now.


George Harris Hees: I should like the minister to answer when I am finished, and I will not be very long. I should like him to say what he thinks of the plan.


Murdo William Martin: I do not think very much of it, nor do very many people in Sweden.


George Harris Hees: I should like him to say what defects he thinks the plan possesses and how the plan can be improved. If he thinks this plan is of no use whatsoever, then I should like him to tell us what would be a better plan. That is what the people of Canada have been waiting to hear the minister and the government say for 33 years.


An hon. Member:: What about the Tory government?


George Harris Hees: I think the answer is long overdue. The people of Canada have been waiting for a long time. I think it is about time the government told us what they have been thinking about for the past 33 years and what they think would be a good health insurance plan. Let them tell us about the health insurance plan they have been talking about before every election for the past 33 years, the health insurance plan they foresaw in the by-election campaign in the riding of Ontario and other ridings,

and in fact what is the plan about which they have been talking for a great many years.


Donald Buchanan Blue: Give us your plan, George.


Mr. Gillis:: It is always a pleasure to discuss the estimates of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. I do not want him to interpret any remarks I make at this time as carping criticism. I think members of the house should keep most of the matters handled by the Department of National Health and Welfare out of the realm of politics. They are mostly humanitarian matters. There is lots of room for us to quarrel and be political on many other issues that come before the house. I know that as one member of the house I could not get up and criticize the minister personally for being uninterested. I have known him for a long time and, regardless of where he sits in the house, I think he is just as much interested as I am in any problem affecting the health of the people of Canada. He is moving slowly within the machinery with which he has to work. He is possibly going as fast as the many factors with which he has to contend will permit him. I would, always give him credit for being sincere in going as far and as fast as he can within these limitations. I say that because I know the minister pretty well personally.


Paul Joseph James Martin: You are not a bad fellow
yourself.


George Harris Hees: Do you fellows dance?


Clarence Gillis: I like to pat on the back people who deserve it, and I love to kick people in the teeth when I think they deserve it. I did not like the speech made by my young and gallant friend from Broadview a few moments ago. I did not like it because first of all he said he believed in a national health insurance program, although he did not say exactly what he meant by that-


John Lambert Gibson: He was talking through his false teeth.


Clarence Gillis: -and in the next breath he condemned Britain where they have implemented a national health insurance program. The program in that country is only in the experimental stage and a national health insurance program, like many other social problems with which you have to deal in life, is something you cannot finalize overnight. You cannot measure it in terms of days or years. When you are dealing with the problems of humanity in their various aspects, and health insurance is one of them, you are dealing with things that will be matters of trial and error for a long time. It will take a considerable time before you reach the 55704-1S6J
Supply-Health and Welfare point where you will get unanimity among the doctors, hospitals and patients and cooperation in all the machinery that has been built up in that field over the last 150 years.
It is not as easy as my hon. friend thinks to uproot one system overnight and transplant something else that is going to be 100 per cent perfect within a period of a year or two. I think my hon. friend was ill-advised to recommend that the Canadian government do something that is being torn to pieces slowly but surely by the Conservatives in Great Britain, and then suggest that he favours national health insurance. He cannot have it both ways. I am interested in this subject and I think the Department of National Health and Welfare is interested. I am not saying that in order to pat anyone on the back. I like to be honest about these things.
Within the last year the Department of National Health and Welfare asked the different provinces to make surveys of their ability at this time to handle a national health insurance program, because under our constitution the field of health is a provincial responsibility. Such surveys were conducted. Only two provinces in Canada said they wanted a national health insurance program, and they were named by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. They are the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. I did not pay very much attention to the surveys made in the other provinces but I did read the report of the survey made in the province of Nova Scotia which was tabled a week or so ago. In the final summary of that report they recommend against the adoption of a national health insurance program at this time. Some 28 reasons are enumerated as to why a national health program could not be implemented now.
I do not agree with that report. I do not agree with the summing up; because if the report made by the province of Nova Scotia indicated anything it indicated the complete inability of that province to cope with their health problem with their present finances and within the constitutional limitations, inasmuch as health comes within provincial jurisdiction.
Health has been a problem for the provinces since confederation, since 1867. Since that time the provinces have worked on a solution for that problem and the report I read from Nova Scotia proved conclusively, to my mind, that they have accumulated disabilities such as inadequacy of hospitals, lack of trained personnel, and lack of research facilities. Those disabilities have accumulated since confederation under the management of the provinces and, instead of indicating that
2954	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare a national health program is not advisable at this time, it proves conclusively that the provinces are not able to handle the problem.
I believe the only solution is an over-all health insurance program by the federal government on a contributory basis with the country zoned so that proper facilities may be set up. The continuation of what we have today places most of the people in this country in the position of not being able to take advantage of the medical skills and hospital facilities which are available because the cost is prohibitive.
I think that instead of accepting these reports the federal government should take a good look at them and decide that the time has come when the federal government must step into the field and clean up the disabilities which have accumulated under provincial management since confederation. I do not know all the details of the reports, but I agree with the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre when he says there is no reason now why two provinces, like Alberta and Saskatchewan who have done a good job and have to a large extent removed the difficulties that exist in some of the other provinces, as they are ready to take part in a national health program, should not be able to meet with the federal government to work out an agreement and establish a health program. In my opinion that would be setting a basis for other provinces to "come in when you can". If you started to work with the two provinces that are ready and arranged your financing that would be, in my opinion, a lead to other provinces in perhaps a year or so to also come in and work the thing out on a national basis.
I know that the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia are trying to work the matter out on a provincial scale. I am sure anyone who has watched the development of the provincial health program in any of those provinces would come to the conclusion that there is no solution on a provincial scale. Saskatchewan has done a good job with limited finances. I think they have gone perhaps as far as they can go. They have done an excellent job, and have provided pretty full coverage from the standpoint of hospitalization. They have set up their regions as an experiment and have covered their people for both doctor and hospitalization. They receive the co-operation of the medical people in that area and there is complete coverage for many specialized services, which are not available in other parts of the country under the local health schemes.
I know that the cost of doctor and hospitalization, under the panel system that has
[Mr. Gillis.1

been working in the part of the country I come from for a good many years, is just about five times as expensive annually as what they are doing in the province of Saskatchewan; and the plan I speak of has not nearly the coverage. I also know that hospitals in the area I speak of are getting into the position where they are continually stepping up the rates. They have more than doubled since 1939. Every time you pick up the paper the hospital board is going back to the subscribers asking for an increase in rates because the hospital is going in the hole and is being threatened with bankruptcy. In my opinion, instead of there being any improvement in the last ten years the services have been deteriorating and the costs have been mounting all the time.
Another thing is that every time you begin to talk about health insurance something else is born immediately. Personally I do not believe in the Blue Cross and all of these stopgap programs we have, because all they have succeeded in doing is preventing proper discussion and proper analysis of the whole problem of national health insurance. They are merely prolonging the agony.
The matter is a national one and it cannot be handled on any other than a national basis if it is to be financed and regulated properly. I have been convinced of that for a long time. I believe if this was done on a national scale and set up properly the cost per capita would be less than it is at the present time when we are trying to do it only in British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan on a provincial basis. British Columbia has discovered that it is a pretty tough proposition, and perhaps one of the worst tangles they have on their hands in that province today is their provincial health program. I believe they got into a field they did not understand. They have not the finances, the personnel, or the facilities to handle the thing on a provincial scale. Alberta is doing fairly well, and Alberta and Saskatchewan are prepared to go ahead with a national plan.
When the minister is answering questions and criticism I would like him to comment on whether it is practical to do what was done with the old age pension originally; that is, to establish basic legislation so provinces which are in a position to come into this scheme may do so if and when they are ready. I think it is unfair, it is shortsighted, and it is bad organization for the federal government to take the position that two governments which are ready for something must stand out because seven or eight other provinces in the country are not ready.
There are just one or two other things by way of grievances which I would like to direct the minister's thoughts toward. One

is the matter of the old age security pension. When we took the means test out of old age security pensions we thought we had solved the situation. Like many cases, when you solve one problem you create three or four more. I am particularly concerned about the means test in two types of pensions. One is the blind pension.
The blind pension is paid because of disability. It is a separate act from the Old Age Security Act, but as soon as a blind person reaches age 70 he is immediately transferred from the blind pension to the old age security pension. In my opinion that is not right, and I do not think it would cost very much money to remove that very burdensome grievance.
My other point in connection with pensions to blind persons is that I believe the ceiling on permissible earnings is wrong. That ceiling is $600. I had thought it was always the policy of the department to encourage blind persons particularly to take some kind of occupation to interest themselves, instead of sitting around on pension brooding. Many of them are willing to occupy themselves, but they run into the problem of the ceiling on permissible earnings when they try to build up a little bit of a business. About all they can do is sell brooms or pencils, or operate a little canteen. Any time those earnings go over the $600 there is a deduction from the blind pension.
Those are the two complaints on the blind pension about which I should like the minister to do something. I believe it is wrong to pay the old age security pension and couple it with the blind pension, because the pensions are paid under two separate acts. The blind pension is paid for a disability, and when such a person reaches the age of 70 the disability is worse because there is infirmity along with it. If the person is lucky enough to be still alive at that stage, he is entitled to the old age security pension. I believe such a person should be paid the old age security pension without any reference to the few dollars he receives for his disability under the blind pension.
The next thing about which I wish to complain is coupled with the Pension Act. There is a type of pensioner, an old lady or an old gentleman who lost a son in the service who might have been the breadwinner at this time had he returned, who receives a pension of $40 a month. As soon as the pensioner reaches the age of 70 that dependent's pension is cut off by the Canadian pension commission. I realize that the means test is in the war veterans legislation, but I am just jogging the minister's memory about it. The Minister of National Health and Welfare and the Minister of Veterans Affairs are both members of the
Supply-Health and Welfare same cabinet. They should get together and remedy this situation. It is a rather sore spot, and I do not think very much money is involved. Either a blind person or an aged pensioner receiving that dependent's pension who reaches the age of 70 is not going to be here very much longer, and I think for the short period they are going to be around that means test should be removed. I am going to leave that thought with the minister. It is very difficult to make people understand why, after years of wrangling, the means test was removed from the old age pension and then have it immediately affect other pensions that had been in existence over a period of years.
I shall not take up more time, Mr. Chairman. I agree with what the member for Winnipeg North Centre had to say. He spoke at some considerable length and put all the facts and figures on the record. I believe he proved conclusively to the Minister of National Health and Welfare that the cost of an over-all health insurance program in this country today could be easily met out of the moneys that are already being spent in the field of health for hospitalization, doctors and so forth. There is another angle to this national health program which the hon. member for Broadview did not think about. While the health insurance program in Great Britain was on a contributory basis, it gave millions of people the right to a doctor and hospitalization which they had never had before because they could not afford it. Certainly in the experimental stages of the legislation mistakes were made. I never agreed with the idea of supplying wigs, false teeth, hearing aids and that sort of thing. I believe that was a premature step; but if the hon. member had stopped to think for a moment he would have realized that millions of people in Britain were provided with dental care who had never before had an opportunity to visit the dentist. There was a run on that sort of thing, and why would there not be? Those administering the health program were placed in a position where the results of fifty years of neglect in this field had to be cleaned up. Thousands and thousands of people made a run on this service because of those years of neglect. Perhaps such a run would last for three or four years, but after that condition was cleaned up the expenditures for this program would have been whittled down a great deal. Ultimately the program would have systematized itself.
I believe Mr. Churchill is doing the people of Britain a disservice by knocking off a lot of these health benefits. I believe he will re-create conditions which the Labour party was well on the way to cleaning up had they retained office long enough, or had the present

Supply-Health and Welfare government been wise enough to retain those benefits. While it may have appeared as though a considerable amount of money was being spent on the program, at the same time millions of pounds a year were being saved in other directions. How many of us stop to think about the tax we are paying at our door from week to week? Hardly a day goes by but what someone at the door is looking for a donation to the cancer fund, the Red Cross, the institute for the blind or the community chest. If you added up all the money you gave away at your door for health programs, which in my opinion is expended in a misdirected way, it would go a long way toward providing for health insurance. I believe a health program should be established in this country on the same basis as old age security, with a certain percentage of the taxes collected for that specific purpose. Then there would be no need for all this haphazard method of collecting money for health purposes. In my opinion money enough is provided to carry on research and set up clinics all across the country at which people could get proper examination and be directed to the proper treatment.
Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say on the subject. I believe hon. members, regardless of where they are sitting, will realize that this question is not a political one so far as I am concerned. National defence is not a political question either. Whether or not my friends to the right think that I am justified in giving the minister a pat on the back, I believe any member who is honest will realize that since the establishment of that department under his direction we have taken many long steps forward in the field of social security in comparison to what we had at the time the department was formed. So far as I am concerned I am prepared to give credit where credit is due. I am not prepared at any time to play politics with the health of the people of this country. I believe that is the position of every member.
I am willing to kick the government around when it is necessary, but on this question I am willing to co-operate in any way I can in order to find a solution to this problem. Any time a member is in his riding, one of the most difficult problems facing him from day to day is the plea of the aged, or of crippled children, and the attempt to find some way by which hospitalization or treatment can be provided. I do not think that is good enough. I am prepared to support the government in anything they may o toward getting in this country a national health program on a contributory basis and keeping it out of the realm of politics.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: Mr. Chairman, I had not anticipated taking part in this debate at this stage.


However, as usual, I have listened to the hon. member for Cape Breton South with rapt attention. I would not go so far as to say that he has upon me the same effect the Minister of National Health and Welfare has upon the hon. member for Broadview. However, I listened to him carefully and agreed with many of the things he has said.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: He is a miner, like yourself.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: That would not necessarily mean I would agree to everything he has said. While speaking of the western provinces and their health programs, he indicated that the plan in British Columbia was not meeting with the general favour of the people.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Was that not right?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: While I was at home during Easter I had the pleasure of attending a convention of the Liberal party, at which time they reaffirmed their desire to keep the hospital plan as it exists. They feel that it is giving the finest possible coverage, and compares favourably with anything that is in existence today.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: It is the biggest headache they ever had.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: It is more comprehensive in its scope than any program that has been instituted in any other province of Canada. It is granted that there has been some criticism of the plan. However, that criticism has been mainly with regard to its cost.


Clarence Gillis: That is exactly what I said, that there were financial difficulties.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I am glad to hear the hon. member say that financial difficulties were the basis of the criticism. Financial difficulties under present costs are something we all share these days. Naturally a plan as comprehensive as the one in existence in British Columbia would be costly. While difficulty arises with regard to the financing, it arises because there is on the part of the individual the desire to avoid paying the cost. However, I am sure the plan is working out to the best interests of all.
I propose to read a statement made b>
a member of the legislative assembly who was a member of a committee set up to study the hospitalization plan in British Columbia and compare it with various other plans in order to determine how the plan could be improved. This M.L.A. made a considerable study of the matter. I believe that committee was in existence for some four or five months and that it made an exhaustive study.
The hon. member for Cape Breton South indicated that the plan in British Columbia

was not as good as that in effect in the province of Alberta. The one in effect in Alberta, as far as the province is concerned, is not having a great deal of financial difficulty. The reason is that they are not giving the coverage. To substantiate that statement I will read what Mr. Hendricks said:
-dealing with the BCHIS-
That is the British Columbia hospital insurance scheme.
*-and re statements by Social Crediters re their $1 a day rate, Mr. Hendricks stated that his audience could readily verify this statement-the dollar a day rate does not provide more than "bed care, person care and meals." Medicine, doctor, surgery, X-ray, etc.,-
That is provided within the hospital.
-are extras, even for a patient in his own municipality-unless the municipality pays for it.
I know the $1 a day rate is paid by the individual, but those in the municipality are taxed to pay the difference; they pay on their property. The property taxes make up the difference. Of course the amount will not be as great, because they do not give the coverage. To continue:
Also, if the patient is taken to a hospital in Alberta other than his own municipality, he is not eligible for the $1 a day rate. The speaker likened the Alberta hospital insurance benefits to a coal-oil lantern compared with 100 candle-power electric light representing the much belaboured B.C. hospital insurance system, even as it stands today.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I would not pay too much attention to that statement. The hon. member knows it is wrong.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I have sat here in the house now for some four months this session and have listened to statements from members of the party represented by the hon. member for Medicine Hat; and to give credence to 10 per cent of the statements they have been making would require one to stretch his imagination greatly.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I am afraid the hon. member's percentage is dropping.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: I have in my hand a facsimile of a receipt obtained by a constituent of mine recently, where the hospital insurance had been paid; it was a receipt from BCHIS to this patient. It only came to my attention because there were some difficulties with respect to the family allowance; but these of course have now been straightened out. This is a receipt for $1,130, representing some 120 days in hospital. That is complete coverage for everything this patient required.	I have seen
receipts for amounts as high as $5,000 which have been paid by BCHIS.	To say that
British Columbia is not ready to go ahead with any comprehensive plan for hospital
Supply-Health and Welfare insurance would be to say something which is contrary to the fact.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: May I ask the hon. member a question before he leaves this subject? Will he tell the committee-


William Alfred Robinson: The hon. member for Eglinton.


An hon. Member:: Let him ask his question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I thought the hon. member for Medicine Hat had a question to ask of the hon. member for Kootenay East.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I just wanted to ask the hon. member for Kootenay East a question before he leaves this matter. Can he tell the committee the percentage of citizens of British Columbia who have paid for their hospitalization, and those who have not?


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: As I have already indicated, Mr. Chairman, I was only drawn into this debate by something that was said by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. However, let me assure the hon. member for Medicine Hat that the BCHIS collections have been made from approximately 97 per cent of those who are covered by insurance. Those who have not paid are in all probability those who, in some way or another, have been unable to pay. Our social welfare program looks after that matter very well.


John Lambert Gibson: They were not paying in "funny money" either.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: The hon. member has plenty of funny money, so he need not talk.


William Alfred Robinson: Order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, in dealing with the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare I consider we are dealing with estimates which are as important as any we will find anywhere in this volume of estimates.
In looking over the figures for the current year one sees, using round figures only, that this year there will be spent through the department $734 million, which is the highest figure in the department's history. This compares with $479 million last year, or an increase over last year of $255 million. Practically all this sum is accounted for by increased payments on the welfare side of the department. New old age security payments will amount to $322 million; the federal government's half-share of old age assistance payments for those between 65 and 69 years will amount to $20 million, and the blind persons allowance will total $3 million, making a total of $345 million as compared

Supply-Health and Welfare with expenditures last year of $110 million for the old age pension then in effect. So on account of these payments for old age security, old age assistance and blind persons allowances there is an increase of $235 million in 1952 as compared with similar payments in 1951. Payments on account of family allowances are increased from $320 million to $332 million, due of course to increase in population. The remaining increase of $8 million is scattered through many items of the department. There are no significant increases this year in other items.	*
I am sure it does not require to be said again, because it is the view of all members in the house, that health is an asset. It is an asset not only to the individual who is fortunate enough to possess it, but it is an asset to the nation. Equally, ill health is a loss not only to the individual but to the nation as well.
On the welfare side of the work of this department, welfare payments are supported by all parties represented in the house, and I share the view expressed by the hon. member for Cape Breton South that these subjects are too important and mean too much to the people of this country to be made a matter of mere partisan exploitation.


An hon. Member:: Listen to that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If you wish to get me started on that, I will have a good deal to say about it.


Clarence Gillis: You are doing all right as you are.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are so many good ways of using money in connection with national health and national welfare that it seems to me we must be vigilant at all times as members of the House of Commons to assure ourselves that we are devoting to the very best possible use the money made available by parliament for expenditures on national health and national welfare.
There are so many things to be done that we are far from having reached the ultimate goals in either of these important fields. A number of the things lacking were mentioned this afternoon and this evening by my colleague the hon. member for Lanark in his very able speech. There is the field of preventive medicine, the need for research; and to this I would add the need in this country for a very great increase in hospital accommodation. There is still in all parts of Canada a very serious shortage of needed hospital accommodation. We cannot be content to rest, in view of the statistics available to us as to the national loss wrought by the scourge of disease.

From the daily bulletin of the dominion bureau of statistics of October 19 last I read this, concerning tuberculosis in Canada:
There was a slight increase in the number of tuberculous patients admitted to sanatoria and other hospitals which had facilities for their care and treatment in 1949, as compared with the preceding year . . . The total number of admissions during the year was 16,492 as compared with 16,326 in the preceding year. In 1949, 15,487 or 93-9 per cent of admissions were tuberculous as compared with 15,278 or 93-6 per cent in 1948. New cases admitted to sanatoria in 1949 numbered 9,340 as compared with 9,541, readmissions, reviews and transfers accounting for the remainder.
Then for the year 1950, from preliminary figures supplied by the dominion bureau of statistics, and which are to be found in the bulletin of the Canadian Tuberculosis Association for September and October last, we read that the rate of deaths per 100,000 from tuberculosis in 1950 for all of Canada was 25-9, and the provincial rates varied all the way from 13 in Ontario, which has the best record, to 68-5 in Newfoundland, a very startling figure.
Then there is the scourge of mental illness. In the dominion bureau of statistics daily bulletin of March 10 last one reads this:
Both the number of admissions to Canadian mental institutions and the admission rates per 100,000 of the general population increased in 1949 and 1950 over the preceding year, while discharges also rose in number and rate per thousand patients, and deaths decreased in relation to number of patients, according to a preliminary report on mental institutions covering the years 1948 to 1950 released by the bureau.
The total number of admissions for all Canada increased from 14,184 in 1948 to 15,476 in 1949 and 16,377 in 1950, the rate per 100,000 of the estimated population rising successively from 110 to 114 and 118. Discharges in the three years numbered 9,952, 11,303, and 11,714, respectively, the rate per 1,000 patients moving upward from 144 in 1948 to 158 the following year and 159 in 1950.
Those figures as to admissions to mental institutions would unquestionably have increased if there were more accommodation available for patients in that category.
Then, too, it must be with a measure of disappointment, which all of us will share, that one reads reports like the one I find in the Globe and Mail of February 5, which reads:
Any suggestion that young people of today have better teeth than their parents would appear to be contradicted by the dental records of recruits now joining the Canadian Army.
Most of these recruits are in their twenties or late teens but nine out of ten of them need dental treatment of some kind, according to dental officers at defence headquarters here. The dental officers have been appalled at the general oral condition of the young men who have been enlisting since the start of the Korean war in the summer of 1950.
Then follows an extensive review of statistics on this subject. All Canadians are thankful for the progress that has been made

in combating the scourge of disease in Canada. But let no one think we have made such progress that we can afford, with smugness or self-satisfaction, to sit back and rest upon our oars. There is much work yet to be done in these two fields of vital importance, national health and national welfare. And it is because of the importance of these fields, and because there are so many ways in which assistance can be used to advantage, that it seems to me our duty is very high to continue at all times to use every means to improve governmental services, and to obtain always better value for the taxpayers' dollar.
That fact is impressed upon us all the more when we realize that the formula put forward by the Minister of Finance last October, the 2-2-2 formula, is not going to meet the cost of the new welfare payments. According to the Minister of Finance there is going to be in 1952 a deficit of $58 million on account of the new old age security and old age assistance payments.
Having regard to the factors I have mentioned I think we must search diligently in order to satisfy ourselves that the available funds for health and welfare are put to the best possible use. It was with not a little disappointment that in reviewing the figures of the details of this department I find that those two old items, travelling expenses and publicity, which have claimed so much of the money of the taxpayers in the past, seem to be still holding out their hands for more.
Travelling expenses this year for this department will total $1,023,700. I think in fairness there should be deducted from that at least a substantial part of the $300,000 item 271 earmarked for the transportation of patients and the travelling expenses of other than the staff. To the extent to which that sum provides for the transportation of patients and those travelling with them I am sure there will be no comment of disapproval. But even deducting all of that item we find that the total for travelling expenses for this department is $723,700.
Then there is the old and familiar item bearing the euphonious title of "educational and informational publications". I remember that item when it appeared under the simple title of "publicity". That did not appear to be a very popular title, particularly when it was found to cover some silly expenditures, and in later years it was given the more respectable title of "educational and informational publicity". Further respectability is now given to it by providing two new names. The first is "educational and informational 55704-187
Supply-Health and Welfare publications" and the other "educational and informational materials other than publications".
Whatever the appropriate name may be, the fact is that expenditures on that account in this department are going to total $707,920 this year. The two items of travelling expenses and publicity will require an expenditure this year in this one department of just about $1-5 million, apart from the item of $300,000 to which I made sympathetic reference.
Is an expenditure of those proportions necessary for the purposes of travelling and publicity? When we look at all the useful ways in which expenditures can be made to contribute directly to the improvement of the health of the nation it seems to me that to expend sums of those proportions upon travelling and-


Murdo William Martin: Will my hon. friend permit a question? When he was giving the information figure he may have noted that it includes a civil defence item. Apparently he has failed to note that there is actually a decrease in the item for information in connection with the normal activities of the department of health and welfare. I am sure he would want to make that very clear before the opposite impression got out.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am aware that on account of civil defence there are two items, one for educational and informational publications and the other for educational and informational materials other than publications, the amount being $108,500 in the former case and $204,500 in the latter. Taking account of those factors I am still submitting that too much money is being spent by this department upon travelling expenses and publicity, especially when we consider what the need is in this field of health and how the money could more usefully be spent in other ways.
As all of us who have reviewed government accounts well know, travelling is most expensive. If we had an adequate method of scrutinizing estimates in a select committee instead of this awkward and clumsy procedure in committee of supply, a committee of the whole house, there would be an opportunity of really sifting through these numerous items of travelling expenses and seeing just how much was really necessary and how much could be dispensed with without any effective loss in the administration of the particular department.
Not only do I think too much money is being spent on travelling and on publicity; I think some of the expenditures are unquestionably extravagant and wasteful in nature. Surely if money is going to be spent on

Supply-Health and Welfare publicity we want to see some return in useful instruction for our money. Let me consider some of the publicity issued by this department. Here is one rather colourful booklet entitled "Good Habits for Good Teeth". It shows a totem pole and an illustration of four little Indians polishing the teeth of the face on the totem pole. It contains six verses and is illustrated in various colourful ways, some of them amusing but none of them very dignified or I suggest very necessary. This piece of publicity like all the others bears the inscription, "Department of National Health and Welfare by authority of the minister Hon. Paul Martin."


An hon. Member:: Read it.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Read the whole thing; it is very useful. I may tell the hon. member that the department of health in Ontario has ordered many copies of that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I tell the minister that many taxpayers in Canada can think of more useful ways of spending money than on that and some of the other issues that are coming out over his name and whose principal purpose apparently is to publicize the name of the minister.
Here is another one entitled "Industrial Health Bulletin." The February, 1951 issue contains a reproduction, extending over two pages, of an article on the subject of success in management. It goes on to enumerate eleven qualities which a successful executive will find useful. What on earth has that to do with national health? The minister is telling the people how they may become useful executives if they have:
1.	Achievement desires.
2.	The idea of authority.
3.	Strong mobility drive.
4.	Organizational ability.
5.	Decisiveness.
6.	Firmness of conviction.
7.	Activity and aggression.
8.	The need to overcome a sense of frustration.
9.	Realism.
10.	Relations with others.
11.	Attitude toward parents.
What on earth has all this to do with health?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Ontario department of health has ordered many copies.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I come to a later issue of the same industrial health bulletin. This time it is the issue of March, 1952. It bears the caption, "Pictorial Presentation". The whole issue this time consists of twelve

cartoons which have been selected out of previous issues. In my submission there is nothing here that has anything to do with health, or with industrial health in particular. It is just a series of cartoons. They may be very amusing, but I do not think they are very amusing to the taxpayers who have to pay for them.


Mr. Cannon:: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


Charles-Arthur Dumoulin Cannon: Have you ever heard the old saying, mens sana in corpore sano?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes.


Charles-Arthur Dumoulin Cannon: The purpose of the publication is to improve the minds and mental health of the people, and then bodily health will follow.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What a wonderful explanation! I am sure we listened with most rapt attention to that extraordinary justification, that apologia we heard from the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine. Look at what he calls that which contributes to a healthy mind.


Paul Joseph James Martin: May I ask my hon. friend a question?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Here is one cartoon which shows a machine and the operator. It is a very big machine with a little wee operator beside it. The hon. member thinks such a cartoon will contribute to a healthy mind.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to ask my hon. friend a question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then there is another cartoon with the note under it, "No caption was considered necessary for this illustration on employee relations". It shows-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to ask the hon. member a question.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Who has the floor?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend asked me-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Who has the floor?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


Paul Joseph James Martin: My hon. friend asked me a question.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. The minister would like to ask a question of the hon. member but he cannot ask it unless the hon. member consents.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If it is only a question the minister wants to ask me I will certainly be glad to answer it, but I do not want him smuggling a speech into the middle of my remarks.


Murdo William Martin: The hon. member knows I would not do that. I understand my hon. friend has to leave tonight.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No.


Murdo William Martin: If my hon. friend were going to have to leave I was going to point out to him that no publication from this department goes out without a request coming first of all from one of the provincial departments of health in our ten provinces.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, there you have the minister's idea of what a question is. Where in that effusion from the minister do you find a question? I suggest that the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine ought to contribute some of his advice to the minister about a healthy mind. He might at least give the minister some instruction pertaining to a healthy mind on what a question is.
Again dealing with this particular publication which the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine thinks contributes so much to the healthy mind, here we have another cartoon in which an executive apparently is lifting a hangman's rope out of a suggestion box in the office, and we read that no caption was considered necessary for this illustration on employee relations. Then again there is a third cartoon with the caption: "Floor levels may be raised to compensate for the shorter height of women employees". We have an illustration of a movable part of the floor being lifted for the benefit of the female employee so she is at a proper height alongside her lathe.
The fourth cartoon is entitled, "Conference, do not disturb". It pictures five cavemen gathered around a table. One of them apparently has just been knocked out by a second one who holds a big club and the other three are holding their hands up. Has this anything to do with the nation's health, Mr. Chairman?


Stanley Howard Knowles: It sounds like a Liberal caucus.


Donald Methuen Fleming: So it goes. Here is another with a pretty nurse holding a workman's hand and it is called, "The nurse and the pulse of industry".


George Harris Hees: Oh, Paul, you can do better than that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Here we have another cartoon depicting a workshop with many workmen standing around watching and another who has a red paint pot in his hand is running for dear life with a bull after him. Is this a contribution to education in the view of the minister and the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine? Under the cartoon is the following:
This sketch, on colour in the plant, was entitled, "This always happens when he uses the red paint."
Supply-Health and Welfare
The taxpayers of Canada are paying to have that printed and circulated throughout Canada. Here is another one depicting a workman with a light finding another workman sitting in darkness with various machine parts scattered about, and we read this caption.
Illustrating an article on plant lighting conditions, this item was captioned: "Has anybody seen my lathe?"
Here is another showing the wreckage of an industrial plant and underneath it are these words:
The article was on industrial laboratories. The caption: "Our tests indicate a high explosive content in the sample."


Paul Joseph James Martin: Don't you think that is pretty valuable?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I cannot see that it is valuable unless your mind is in such a condition that you think a statement, albeit a very extraordinary one, is a question, or unless you have the view of the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine that these cartoons have the effect of creating a healthy mind. I can think of many better ways to expend the taxpayers' money in contributing to mental health than putting out cartoons of this kind. Mind you, I suppose everybody likes to see cartoons, but why at the expense of the taxpayers?


Paul Joseph James Martin: You do not think they should do that?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not think you have any business wasting other people's money putting out things like that.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Then you disagree with the Canadian Congress of Labour.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I disagree with the minister or anybody else who says that particular issue, or issues of that kind, contribute anything to a healthy mind or a healthy body.
I note too that in the issue of the industrial health bulletin for February, 1951 the illustration of the successful executive who had those eleven useful attributes shows the executive holding a telephone receiver upside down because the cord is attached to that portion of the piece which is closest to his ear. Apparently he was talking into the receiving end of the set and listening through the speaking end.


Murdo William Martin: He is not the only one.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That represents the idea of the minister and the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine of what contributes to a healthy mind.


Murdo William Martin: He is not the only one who is speaking through the wrong end.

Supply-Health and Welfare


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sure the minister likes company when he does not know the difference between a question and a statement, albeit a foolish one.
There is something that is common to all these publications. You know what it is, Mr. Chairman. You know well what it is, because they all bear the same so vital, so important inscription. Take the little booklet showing the Indians brushing the teeth on the totem pole. On it I read the following:
Department of National Health and Welfare by authority of the minister Hon. Paul Martin.
The last three words are in extra firm, clear and heavy type, "Hon. Paul Martin".


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


George Harris Hees: The workers' friend.


Donald Methuen Fleming: You see, Mr. Chairman, the cheering section behind the minister is quite happy to see the money of the taxpayers of this country squandered on giving personal publicity to the Minister of National Health and Welfare.
You know quite well, Mr. Chairman, the kind of inscription that appears on these industrial health bulletins to which I have made reference. It does not matter what other things are in them or left out of them as long as this very important statement is included, namely:
Published monthly for the industrial health division of the Department of National Health and Welfare, Ottawa, under the authority of the minister, the Hon. Paul Martin.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It does not matter what foolish squandering of the taxpayers' money the contents of the balance of the publication may represent as long as those essential words appear and are scattered throughout the length and breadth of Canada in all ten provinces. Of course one can say the more the better, according to the ideas prevailing on the other side of the house, as long as they contain these essential words, "The Hon. Paul Martin".


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is what counts, Mr. Chairman, as you well know.
Now we know, of course, what the minister says every time people take issue with this silly squandering and improvident waste of the taxpayers' money. The minister gets up and, with his favorite lamentation, points to issues like "mother and child", and he just wracks our hearts as he pictures what is going to happen to the health of this nation if you cut out any of his precious publicity. The health of the nation is going to fall to pieces overnight unless he has his publicity going out.


Mr. Chairman, I think the minister has tried to scare the house often enough. Perhaps wie have come to the point where the boy sent to watch the flock has cried, "Wolf! Wolf!" often enough, and perhaps the house is not going to be quite so ready to be frightened this time if somebody tries to apply a little common sense and a sense of responsibility to wasteful expenditures of this kind.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I wish to touch for a moment on another subject of very considerable importance. This subject from time to time confronted the special committee which studied the subject of old age security at the 1950 session of this house. It was the problem of the disabled person. We were told the following year that a study was to be conducted, and I am hoping the minister will be able to make a report on this subject which will indicate that we are coming closer to dealing with this problem. I am referring to those persons who are totally and permanently disabled.
The house knows that at the recent session of the Ontario legislature an important step was taken in meeting this problem when provision was made for the payment of a monthly pension of $40 to persons in the province who are permanently and totally disabled and who are between 18 and 64 years of age. I suggest to the minister that there is a lead which can be commended in the recognition of the existence of a problem which has as much claim to consideration as other problems which have been dealt with. The house gave unanimous support to the legislation of a year ago dealing with the payment of pensions to the blind, as it had given strong support, unanimous support, to the previous provision that had been made for blind persons. Blindness is a particular form of disability. Mr. Chairman, by what logic do we differentiate between those on the one hand who are afflicted by blindness and those on the other hand who suffer permanent and total disability for other reasons? I submit there can be no distinction in logic in our approach to this problem.


Jean-François Pouliot: If the hon. gentleman permits? If I could not see you, I would be very unhappy.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thank the hon. gentleman for his very kind and generous comment. I can assure him it always gives me pleasure to look across to the other side of the house at him and, no matter what may be said for the rest of the scenery, as long as I can see him I feel happy.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will be your ghost writer.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, the problem of providing for the total and permanently

disabled is one that is necessarily linked with the problem of rehabilitation. Here is a field in which much remains to be done. I am not suggesting that there has been in this respect a retardation of effort on the part of this department, because it is a field in which steps have to be taken in association with the province. I well recall the statement made by Dr. Davidson, in the committee on old age security two years ago, that a grant that had been made available for rehabilitation of the blind had not been fully taken up. However, Mr. Chairman, I have read with interest a statement attributed to the Minister of Labour at Montreal on March 6. A Canadian Press dispatch of that date reads:
More than 100,000 Canadians, men and women of working age, who suffer from physical disabilities that prevent them at present from earning their own living, can be rehabilitated to the social and economic advantage of Canada, Labour Minister Gregg told the Montreal Klwanis club today.
In conjunction with the provinces and various voluntary agencies, the federal government has in mind giving effect to such a program, he said.
The program, he declared, must include medical treatment, therapy, convalescence, vocational guidance and training. All this will be directed toward eventually placing the rehabilitated person in a suitable job in industry.
That is a field in which much useful work remains to be done and, it seems to me, a very challenging field with which we are confronted in this house, in relation to the problem of making provision for the needs of those who are socially and permanently disabled and without means of support.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, I mention just briefly a subject that I have been harping on for many years in this house. In returning to it I feel I need make no apology. I feel there ought to be a select standing committee of this house charged with the responsibility, and I may say, given the opportunity of studying matters pertaining to the health and welfare of this nation.


George Harris Hees: Is the minister going to answer some questions now?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I want to thank the hon. members who have taken part in the debate thus far, including the hon. member for Temiscouata who asked me a very important question which I will deal with on the appropriate item, for the level of this debate. I would be lacking in gratitude particularly to the hon. member for Cape Breton South if I did not say at once how much I appreciated his encouraging words about the work we are trying to do in this department.
I do not propose to deal at this hour with all the questions brought up, because I will deal with a lot of them seriatim as we come to the various items.
Supply-Health and Welfare
I shall deal first of all with the remarks of the hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat. He referred to the travelling expenses of this department. He referred to them as though they were excessive. I want to say that you cannot run the Department of National Health and Welfare as it should be run without incurring travelling expenses. Remember that our job is one of co-ordination with the provincial departments of health. Our food and drug inspectors carry on a tremendously important job and they are in continuous travel, as they should be. Our officials in the operation of the national health plan, with all of its divisions, are constantly being called upon by the provinces for consultation which involves travel. I am not saying there does not have to be a most careful scrutiny of these expenditures- there has to be-and I assure my hon. friend that there is such scrutiny. What he has failed to point out is that there was actually a decrease in the travelling expenses of the entire department, outside of civil defence.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Is that a decrease in the estimate or in comparison with the actual expenditures last year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: In staff. That does not include civil defence, which has been added to this department. That is the statement he should have made instead of letting it go out to the country that this department was profligate. Let my hon. friend show me one instance, instead of making carte blanche remarks which give a wrong impression. I shall take the responsibility as minister for this department. It cannot be run on any other basis. If the hon. member will show me where there has been improper travelling I shall be the first to correct it and I would thank him for it.
Then with regard to information, the hon. member did not point out that our total budget, apart from civil defence, is $72,000 less this year than it was last year. This is not due to the fact that we have cut out important services, but because projected films that had been ordered were not ready for production, for one reason or another. I would say to the hon. member that I would have thought he would be the last man in this house who would criticize this particular aspect of the department's work. He knows, just as the hon. member for Iles-de-la-Madeleine pointed out to him, and as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre insisted last year in dealing with this point when replying to the hon. member for Eglin-ton, one of the essential jobs of this department is sending out this kind of information. The department would not be doing its job if it did not make films, and if it did not have
2964	HOUSE OF
Supply-Health and Welfare pamphlets. I must say that the hon. member was in good form, and I enjoyed his speech. It was just like reading the comic strips which I read every night, and I enjoyed it. It was good fun, but it was not good war.
Every one of the publications to which the hon. member referred, I shall admit, may be a little out of place in the hands of a mature and highly intellectual man like the hon. member. Even I, with my lower intellectual qualities than the hon. member, have had difficulty sometimes in appreciating them. However, there are not many people in the world as mature as he and I, so there have to be ways and means devised of imparting information to those various groups in our population.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There have to be some things to be thankful for.


Murdo William Martin: Seriously, before any publication in our department is approved' by the minister it is first of all gone over with a committee representing the ten provincial departments of health. They aid in distributing the information, and also frequently pass on the form of the material. Apart from the expenditure, they are parties to the projects as I have indicated.
Now then, with reference to the industrial health bulletin to which the hon. member referred, that was one which received the backing of the three large congresses of labour in this country. The hon. member may have his view, but it will be very interesting for those labour organizations to know the view he has taken of the value of this information.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The value of your cartoons.


Murdo William Martin: I know what really troubled the hon. member. It was not the value of the information. He and I are old classmates. We have been together many years, and I know him just as well as he knows me. It is just like the old days in college, and Donald does not like to see Paul's name ahead of his. Unfortunately for the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, Paul is the minister, and as long as he is the minister he must accept the responsibility, as he does. If he accepts the responsibility, he has to have his name on the pamphlets, as is the case with every member of any responsible government in this country. If perchance the hon. member should ever become a minister-I do not think there is immediately a great possibility -he will have to subject himself to the inconvenience and embarrassment that attends the use of his name.


George Harris Hees: How you hate it!


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member for Lanark made an excellent speech. He was fair


enough to say that many of the things to which he referred were not within the competence of the federal government. As usual he made, I thought, a careful and considered statement. I may tell him that his urging for research, and so on, is something I fully support. This year we are spending $3-5 million on medical research, as compared with less than $1 million five years ago. This covers many fields. It now covers some 112 projects in cancer compared with only two research projects in cancer when the national health program was established. It touches multiple sclerosis, and it touches the various things to which the hon. member made mention. It touches crippling conditions in children, tuberculosis control, cancer control, and mental health.
A few minutes ago one hon. member referred to the need for additional hospitalization in the mental health field. We have assisted in the building of 8,000 additional mental hospital beds. As the hon. member for Lanark pointed out today, together with the provincial governments in a scheme of co-operation we have been able to supply some 38,000 hospital beds in addition to the numbers that existed four years ago. When we come to the various items we can go into further details. Under the national health program the federal government, together with the provinces, has embarked upon a program of the greatest significance to the people of this country. This program has been pursued without political interest, as every provincial department of health will confirm.
I propose to leave most of these subjects for discussion when we come to the various items. I would simply say this. The questions raised by the hon. member for Broadview I think have answered themselves. When he said he was in favour of the existing Swedish system I was most amazed. I think no other person sitting in his group would be in agreement. Certainly, to answer his question directly, I would not give that program my support, nor do I think anyone would who has followed this problem closely.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister permit a question at this point? I agree with him. I favour the new plan proposed in Sweden. But just to have the picture clear, has the new plan really been brought into effect?


Paul Joseph James Martin: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It was passed by the Swedish legislature, but it has not been brought into effect, although it is a better plan.


Paul Joseph James Martin: No one speaks enthusiastically of it, and I am sure that on reflection and

when he does some research on the matter, the hon. member will agree. I am sure he would not seriously urge that plan in this country. There is nothing further to add.
The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has spoken with vigour and at length on the matter he raised. In another debate I have stated the present position. All but two of the health surveys are in. The sickness survey, which will be the most significant survey of its kind ever attempted in any country-at least so we are informed by the American medical public association -we hope will be completed soon. We are now making a condensation of the various provincial health surveys which are part and parcel of the nation's health program. I can add nothing more, except to say that I share the view that has been expressed by hon. members who have spoken here tonight as to the importance of this work. There is no department of government that is engaged in more important work, and when we come to these various items the tremendous progress that has been made will be indicated. I have no hesitation in saying at once that there can be no stopping, no letting up in our efforts to try to battle the greatest enemy of mankind, disease. This is something that depends upon the collaboration of governments, the medical profession, the nursing profession, voluntary organizations and so on. I believe that, while we must never relax our efforts, the general picture in this country is one that shows constant activity and continuing interest.


George Harris Hees: I should like to ask the minister a question. He made some derogatory remarks about the Swedish plan which I understand is now being revised. That plan has been in existence for many years and has proved satisfactory to a great many people. It just goes to show that anything can be improved; and it would be extraordinary if it could not. If the minister finds so much wrong with the plan which they are changing, he must of necessity have in mind some better plan. I would be greatly interested in hearing what the minister's ideas are on this matter.


Murdo William Martin: When we come to that matter we can deal with it.


George Harris Hees: There is no item I know of that deals with health insurance. Will the minister answer that now or under health insurance studies?


Murdo William Martin: Yes; when we come to the item.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the minister will turn to the details of this item on pages 318 and
Supply-Health and Welfare 319, he will find some items about which I should like to ask a couple of questions.


Murdo William Martin: Could we not wait until we get to the items?


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is what we are into.
I am asking a question about the details of the first item. At page 318 we find provision for one economist, grade 9; one economist, grade 6; two economists, grade 4; one economist, grade 3; five economists, grade 2; and one economist, grade 1. I note that provision is made this year for what appears to be a doubling of the number of economists in the department.


Murdo William Martin: Yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What specific work are the economists doing; and what work are the additional economists engaged in at the moment?


Murdo William Martin: The national health program is entailing the greatest administrative responsibility and work.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Are you charging those under this item and not under health insurance studies?


Murdo William Martin: Some of them. They do that as well. We have approved over 3,000 projects. That is a tremendous amount. We have to assess those. Every year we drop some of them; we do not think some should go on. The job of appraising has to be done. These people are assisting in much of that work. That is not their only work. For instance, we have made a study of the various health insurance programs in other countries, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has pointed out, and so on. We really should have more, but that is all I was able to get.


George Harris Hees: Before I leave that matter, may I get the minister's assurance that when we get to this item he will tell me specifically what he finds fault with in the plan I mentioned?


Murdo William Martin: I shall be glad to.


George Harris Hees: Will he give us the assurance that he will deal with what he told us was a good plan and will he also give us some ideas that he has?


Murdo William Martin: I will not promise to do the latter; but I will tell you what is wrong with yours.


George Harris Hees: No. I think it only fair that the minister give us some ideas he has after this great length of time he has obviously studied health insurance plans. Will he tel] us what his ideas are and will he tell the committee at that stage when we may expect

Supply-Health and Welfare actually to come to grips with this problem and stop shadow boxing?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I shall be glad to deal with all those questions in my humble way.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No; do it the other way, your usual way.


George Harris Hees: Yes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Let us pass this item tonight.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am trying to be helpful. At page 319, under the same item, the second last detail, No. 22, we find "Allowances and other expenses of delegates to international conferences, $6,000." May I ask what international conferences the department is sending delegations to this year?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The world health organization.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What did the expenses amount to of the delegation last year to the world health organization?


Paul Joseph James Martin: 


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister came fairly close in his estimate.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We estimated very accurately. That is one place where we hit the bull's eye.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask the minister this question, and I am sure he would be disappointed if I did not ask it of him-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will give my hon. friend the answer right now.


Donald Methuen Fleming: -because it is a time-honoured one.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will give my hon. friend the answer right now. I anticipated my hon. friend, knowing his great interest in these problems. I would ask him to sleep on this answer, or to read it instead of the book he was going to read tonight.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I take it that this is a statement of the details of the actual expenditures, item by item, in this department last year.


William Alfred Robinson: Is it agreed that this document be printed in Hansard?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The document is as follows:



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE EXPENDITURES 1951-52

[Stage Direction]
1952-53 Item No.	Services	Expenditure to Mar. 31, 1952
s		$ 12,000
		
257		831,562
		
	National Health Branch	
258		104,379 293,837 1,281,438 564,073 2,600
259		
260		
261		
262		
263		367,849
264	Laboratory of hygiene-construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new	31,461 142,512 180,348 240,288 63,919 823,574 150,134 10,735,763 924,070 356,649 65,234 30,000
265	Public health engineering		
266	Industrial health		
267	Civil service health		
268	Epidemiology (including the former V.D. control)		
269		
270		
271	Indians and Eskimos health services- Operation and maintenance		
272		
273	Special technical services		
274		
		
		
		16,357,948
		
275	General health grants		24,381,911
		
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Health and Welfare EXPENDITURES 1951-52 (Concluded)
Services
Expenditure to Mar. 31,
Item No.
276
278
280 281 282
284
286 287
Canadian Mental Health Association	
Health League of Canada	
Canadian Public Health Association	
Canadian National Institute for the Blind	
L'Association Canadienne Francaise des Aveugles
L'lnstitut Nazareth de Montreal	
Montreal Association for the Blind	
Canadian Tuberculosis Association	
Victorian Order of Nurses	
St. John Ambulance Association	
Canadian Red Cross	
Canadian Paraplegic Association	
10,000
10,000
5.000
45.000
6.000
4.050
4.050 20,250 13,100
10.000 10,000 15,000
Total special health grant
Total national health branch
152,450
40,892,309
289
(S)
(S)
(S)
(S)
(S)
292
Welfare branch administration	
Family allowances and old age security-Administration	
Family allowances payments	
Old age security payments	
Administration of the Old Age Assistance and Blind Persons Allowances Acts....
Old age assistance-payment of federal share of assistance	
Blind persons allowances-payment of federal share of allowances	
Old age pensions and pensions to the blind-payment of federal share of pensions.,
National physical fitness act	
Assistance to provinces	
Grant to Canadian Welfare Council	
Appropriation not required for 1952-53 (Assistance to schools of social work).
31,297 2,356,700 320,457,673 76,066,834 93,808 2,277,238 725,120 80,214,558 68,240 82,214 16,000 100,000
Total welfare branch
482,489,682
Total dept, other than civil defence
524,225,553
Civil Defence
Civil defence
844,851
Summary
To be voted	
Authorized by statute
45,316,981
479,753,423
Total
Minister's salary etc	
Departmental administration
National health branch	
Welfare branch	
Civil defence	
525,070,404
12,000
831,562
40,892,309
482,489,682
844,851
Total
Item agreed to.
525,070,404
National health branch-health services-
258. National health branch, administration, $139,507.
William Alfred Robinson: Are there any questions on item 257? That is the first item in this national health branch.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute. What item are we on?


William Alfred Robinson: Item 257; no, item 258.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is the reason I asked. We had been discussing item 257. We are now on item 258.

Supply-Health and Welfare


William Alfred Robinson: I said that item 257 was carried and I passed over to item 258, which is the administration item of the national health branch.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is a question I wanted to ask on item 258. Perhaps while I am on my feet I should say I am glad to note that the Minister of National Health and Welfare has indicated his approval of the new plan suggested in Sweden.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I did not say that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: He said he preferred it to the old one.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I did; but because I prefer my hon. friend to somebody else, that does not mean to say that I prefer my hon. friend to my brother.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In view of the fact that the minister indicated that the new plan is preferable to the old one, we will point out what the new plan is when we get to the item on health insurance studies. On this item 258, national health branch, I should like to ask the minister what consideration his department is giving to the question we discussed under another heading, namely vitamin E and other drugs in relation to the sales tax and so on. Mr. Chairman, do not get the notion that I am talking about something that should come under the Minister of Finance; because when we discussed this matter with the Minister of Finance he pointed out that his department agrees to the removal of the sales tax on various drugs only when they get a recommendation that this should be done from the Minister of National Health and Welfare. I should be glad if the minister could tell us what progress is being made in his department toward the day when vitamin E will be included among those products so recommended to be free from sales tax. Also what progress is being made in the consideration of other drugs for the same exemption?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I just want to get that item through.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The first item has passed. Item 257 has passed.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to make even greater progress.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute. I know the minister is the Hon. Paul Martin-


Paul Joseph James Martin: I will tell you. The committee is in such a good mood that I ought to be prepared to give a reply to that question. My hon. friend will realize that I cannot very well say in the committee what government policy is until government policy on a particular matter is subscribed to by the government as a whole.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Or until there is a government policy.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The Minister of Finance, who has great responsibility in these matters, has to take into account the requirements and the money he has available to meet those requirements. I may tell my hon. friend that the department naturally follows these matters with great interest. I cannot say any more than that. I am sure he will understand.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am sure I would understand that it was the minister speaking even if I could not see him. That is the kind of answer we get far too often. Let us look at the situation. The Minister of Finance says, "We have to consult the Minister of National Health and Welfare". The Minister of National Health and Welfare says, "The Minister of Finance has to consider these matters in the light of his total financial responsibility".


Paul Joseph James Martin: Surely the hon. member does not expect me to say that I recommended such and such to the Minister of Finance and that the Minister of Finance did not accept that recommendation. The hon. member surely does not expect me to enter into a discussion of that kind of cabinet debate. I just could not do it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: We understood him to say that he accepted your recommendation.


Murdo William Martin: I am sure my hon. friend would recognize the fact that it would be improper for me to enlarge on that any further. I will not say it is improper for him to ask the question, but I doubt if he should persist in it.


Some hon. Members:: Eleven o'clock.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I think it is in ordier for us to expect the minister to tell us what the thinking is of the people in his department with regard to vitamin E products and other drugs.


Murdo William Martin: That is a very important matter. My hon. friend can understand the situation. I forgot to say this. For business reasons, even if the situation were otherwise, I could not say in this 'committee what our view is with regard to certain tax relief on certain kinds of drugs.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If the minister suffers under that disability, some of the rest of us do not. I want to say I feel that vitamin E and a good many other drugs should not be taxed.


Murdo William Martin: I was not referring to vitamin E. I was referring to the general problem. There would be companies who would take advantage of what I said, and I do not propose to be put in that position.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I come back again to what I was saying, namely that if we cannot get information out of the minister, at least we can give him information and give him our views.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should be glad to have them.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There are a great many of us in this chamber who feel it is grossly unfair that these taxes are kept on vitamin E and many other drugs that we might name. Since the Minister of Finance has told us he will not take the tax off unless the Minister of National Health and Welfare recommends that it be done, we urge the Minister of National Health and Welfare to make such a recommendation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
259. Administration of the quarantine and leprosy *acts, $322,001.
Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Murdo William Martin: Could we carry item 259?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have some questions to ask on this item.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we will consider the estimates of the following departments: national health and welfare, labour, fisheries.


Mr. Green:: What about public works?


Alphonse Fournier: And if we have time we will take up public works.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will that be the order?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, that will be the order.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
396.	To provide for surveys and construction of the trans-Canada highway through national parks, $500,000.
397.	To provide for general investigations by the Northwest Territories power commission of the electric power requirements of settlements and industries in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory (revote), $1,000.
Northern administration and lands branch-
398.	Branch administration, $23,180.
399.	Lands division-administration of territorial and public lands; seed grain collections, $301,629.
Supply
Northern administration division-
400.	Administration, $262,212.
Northwest Territories, including Wood Buffalo park and Eskimo affairs-
401.	Operation and maintenance, $772,851.
402. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $227,400.
Forest conservation and wildlife management, including Wood Buffalo park-
403.	Operation and maintenance, $332,717.
404. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $94,211.
Yukon Territory, including forest conservation-
405.	Operation and maintenance, $309,898.
406. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $328,050.
407.	Grant to the Arctic Institute of North America, $5,000.
Forestry branch-
408.	Branch administration, $132,885
Forest research division-
409.	Operation and maintenance, $909,447.
410. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $54,161.
Forestry operations division-
411.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $93,092.
412.	To provide for contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory and reforestation in accordance with agreements that have been or may be entered into by Canada and the provinces, $1,225,000.
Forest products laboratories division
[Stage Direction]
413.	Operation and maintenance, $515,729.
414.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $41,955.
415.	Grant to Canadian Forestry Association,
[Stage Direction]
416.	Grant to Pulp and Paper Research Institute of Canada, $100,000.
Eastern Rockies forest conservation board-
417.	Salaries and expenses of federal members of the board, $13,680.
418.	Federal contribution towards annual maintenance, including staff and expenses, $75,000.
Canadian government travel bureau-
419.	To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,496,900.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
257.	Departmental administration, $970,160.
National health branch-
Health services-
258.	Administration, $139,507.
Loans, Investments and Advances-
558. To provide for advances to the Northwest Territories power commission for the construction on the Mayo river, Yukon territory, of a storage and hydro-electric development, to serve the Mayo mining district, $1,300,000.
[Stage Direction]
Friday, June 6, 1952