1952-05-20

Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I think members of the house would be interested in an up-to-date report upon the proceedings between Jeremiah J. Nolan, Hallet and Carey Limited et al, and the Attorney General of Canada and the Canadian WTieat Board. The most succinct statement I might make in that connection is to read a self-explanatory wire which we have just received from our agents, Charles Russell and Company of London. The wire reads as follows:
Nolan appeals allowed.
The reference here is to the attorney general's appeal against the judgment in favour of Mr. Nolan. The wire proceeds:
Orders Supreme Court Canada court appeal court Queen's bench Manitoba in both actions set aside except as to costs. Judgment dismisses action commenced by Nolan and as regards action commenced by board judgment is for board against Nolan for amount moneys remaining in court.
Actions remitted to court appeal and court Queen's bench Manitoba for order payment out to board of moneys in court. Costs proceedings Canada and privy council in accordance with terms granting special leave. Airmailing reasons.
The wire is signed by Charles Russell and Company.



PRIVATE BILLS


Mr. W. G. Weir (Porlage-Neepawa) moved:: That the petition of Frank Ashworth for a bill of divorce, presented on May 19, 1952, together with the report made thereon by the clerk of petitions on May 20, 1952, be referred to the standing committee on standing orders for such recommendations as may be deemed advisable in relation to standing orders 92 and 93 (3) (a) and (c).


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Rodney Adamson (York West):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of
National Revenue. I regret that I have not had an opportunity to give him notice of it but he may take it as notice now. Have subscriptions to relief funds for the rehabilitation of persons who have suffered from high water levels of lake Ontario, specifically the fund raised in the municipality of Long Branch, been allowed or disallowed as deductions from income for tax purposes?


Hon. J. J. McCann (Minister of National Revenue):: It is a question of dealing with each application upon its own merits. Those who are interested would have to make application to the department-it is an administrative problem-and an answer would be given in due course. I shall take the hon. gentleman's question as notice and give him a more detailed answer tomorrow.



INQUIRY AS TO REPORT OF CONFERENCE ON USE OF COLOURING MATTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: May I ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare if he is yet in a position to make a report on the conference which was to have been held recently respecting regulations to make sure that brown bread is wholewheat bread and not white bread dyed brown.


Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: I am in a position to make a statement, but I shall be very glad to deal with this when my estimates are up for discussion.



NATIONAL LIBRARY


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the establishment of a national library and for the appointment and remuneration of a national librarian and an assistant national librarian; to provide also for the appointment, in accordance with the provisions of the Civil Service Act, of such officers, clerks and employees necessary for the proper control and management of the national library; to provide also for the establishment of an advisory council and for the payment of the travelling and living expenses of the members thereof; and to provide further for the establishment in the consolidated revenue fund of

National Library
a special account to which shall be credited any money appropriated by parliament for the purpose of acquiring books and of a special account called the national library special operating account to which shall be credited all moneys received by way of donation, bequest or otherwise and that any amount required for the purpose of the said1 measure may be paid out of the national library special operating account or out of any money appropriated by parliament for such purposes.


Mr. Drew:: Is the Prime Minister going to make a statement?


Mr. SI. Laurent:: I have a statement to make but it seemed to me that it might be more convenient it I made it when the house was in committee because then questions could be asked and answered to elucidate the statement and to give such further information as I might have available. There is another reason for my preference to do it that way. This is a motion under standing order 60 and that standing order provides:
If any motion be made in the house for any public aid or charge upon the people, the consideration and debate thereof may not be presently entered upon, but shall be adjourned till such further day as the house thinks fit to appoint; and then it shall be referred to a committee of the whole house, before any resolution or vote of the house do pass thereupon.
The motion being moved at this time is merely a motion that Mr. Speaker do leave the chair so that the standing order can be complied with. There cannot at this stage or until the committee has considered the resolution be any vote of the house upon its substance. So that it would not seem to be in accord with the standing order to discuss at this time the merits or demerits of the resolution. That has to be considered first of all in committee before there can be any expression of opinion by the house upon its merits or demerits.
I do not want to start a long discussion about procedure at this time, but I think it is a matter worthy of consideration. There is the practical advantage that if I make my statement when the house is in committee hon. members will have the opportunity of asking me for further information about any points I may be suggesting in support of the resolution.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that this is a most important subject and it is desirable to proceed upon the basis of a statement from the government as to its general intention. I am certainly of the impression that when we have had similar motions before us in regard to other matters statements have been made and that it has been customary for other members to express their opinions in regard to the matter under consideration.
I would point out that if a statement is made now by the Prime Minister (Mr. St.
tMr. St. Laurent.]
Laurent) as to the general intention of the government in connection with this important matter it will then be possible for hon. members to ask questions when we have gone into committee. I think what should be borne in mind in connection with this is that the subject matter is something about which I am sure there is no dispute. I feel sure that all hon. members welcome the decision to proceed with something which has been requested for a great many years.
I think it would be helpful if hon. members had a statement from the government as to the way in which they propose to proceed with this matter. Doubtless other hon. members besides myself will wish to say something in the light of what the Prime Minister would say. Then, if the motion is adopted, as I trust it will be unanimously, it will be possible to ask any question that may suggest itself when we have proceeded into committee. I respectfully ask the Prime Minister to follow that course.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it would take some time perhaps to reach a definite decision as to what standing order 60 really means because of the practice which has grown up in the past I have no objection to making my statement now. But I make it under reserve of my request to His Honour the Speaker to consider standing order 60 and at some future time give us the benefit of his opinion as to its proper construction.
As the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) has said, I am sure that there will be no one in this house who will not consider that this matter is of sufficient importance to warrant taking up the time of the committee of the whole to consider whether a bill should be introduced. I think it is safe to assume that all members of the house will be glad to see some step made toward the realization of a national library for the Canadian nation. I think it is also safe to say that there was nothing included in the speech by which His Excellency opened this parliament which was more decidedly commended than- the announcement that there would be introduced at this time legislation preliminary to the establishment of a national library.
The leader of the opposition is right in saying that for some time past a number of requests have been made that steps be taken toward establishing this kind of public service for the Canadian people. Late in 1946 a brief was presented to the government by a group of societies, including the Canadian Library Asssociation, the Royal Society of Canada and others, asking that the first

preliminary steps toward the organization of a national library in Canada should be taken at the earliest moment.
In September, 1948, the newly appointed dominion archivist was given the special assignment of preparing the way for the establishment of a national library, and a national library advisory committee was appointed under his chairmanship. On the advice of this committee the government approved the establishment in 1950 of the bibliographic centre which was intended to be the first unit of the national library. This centre is temporarily located in the public archives building.
Then in 1949 the royal commission on national development in the arts, letters and sciences was appointed and asked to consider the national library question. The purpose of the bill to follow this resolution is to carry into effect the recommendation of the royal commission that a national library be established without delay.
Just a word about the present plan. The bill to be introduced if the committee approves the resolution will give ample authority for the organization of a full-fledged national library. Of course this is not something that is going to be realized overnight. It may be that under existing conditions some time must necessarily pass before the project is well advanced in implementation. In the first place, defence requirements make the immediate construction of a new building impracticable for the time being and a national library cannot function with maximum benefit to the community without suitable quarters.
In the second place a great amount of cataloguing of books and other preliminary work must be done before the national library itself can begin to lend books, to give an adequate reference service to inquirers and perform other functions of a public library. It is this essential preliminary work which the government is proposing should be pushed forward immediately, in the hope that the day when a suitable building can be erected will not be too far distant.
I should like now to say a word as to the character of the library. Hon. members who have read the recommendations of the advisory committee which was tabled on March 3 last, and which the government has accepted in principle, will know that the proposed national library promises to be somewhat different in character from the national libraries in many other countries.
It is axiomatic that no modern government can function without books, and the government of Canada is no exception. Since no national library has been in existence, essential book needs have had to be met from other
National Library
sources. The library of parliament has done its best to fill partially that gap, and the public archives have for many years been performing services normally associated with a national library rather than with archives. Many of the department libraries came into existence originally because there was no national library to furnish the services that were necessary. It is not proposed that the new national library should absorb all these collections, but that it should complement them where needed, and by pooling their catalogues should make them into a more closely knit library system so that what is already in existence elsewhere will become available to those who might require the information from those books through the national library.
In making its plans for the national library the government has assumed that there will be the closest possible co-operation between the new library, the library of parliament, the libraries of government departments and agencies, and also between the national library and many of the public libraries throughout the country. We want to reduce to a minimum unnecessary duplication. For example, there is no thought of building up new scientific collections that would rival or duplicate those already in the library of the national research council. Those books will be included, however, in the general catalogue, and on proper occasions they will be made available through the services of the national library to students who may require to consult them.
One basic objective of any national library, I think, is to become the most comprehensive library in the world on its own country. It is proposed that Canada's national library should try to reach that objective, but that in working towards that end it should co-operate with other government libraries, and with a large number of other institutions throughout Canada. The bill to be introduced, if and when the resolution is adopted, will contain a deposit law. The Massey report recommends that the national library should secure as complete a collection as possible of books published in Canada, books published by Canadians and of books on Canadian themes, all to the end that it might be the most comprehensive collection of books in the world relating to Canada.
In other countries corresponding publications are secured mostly under the provisions of their respective copyright or deposit laws which require the publishers to send copies of new books, pamphlets or maps and so forth to the national library. The proposed bill would establish a deposit system in

National Library
Canada, but perhaps not as stringent and rigorous as the systems that exist elsewhere, at least not initially.
This deposit requirement is not entirely new. There is already a partial requirement for deposit under section 11 of the Copyright Act amendment of 1931, which directs that two copies of every work copyrighted in Canada should be sent to the library of parliament. In drafting this bill, care has been taken to avoid any clash between the copyright provision and the intended provision with respect to deposit under the new act. A deposit law supplementary to the copyright law is, I think, very desirable, because a considerable number of publications which the national library will wish to secure and preserve are not formally protected under the copyright act. Some of them could not be copyrighted as they consist mainly of material already in the public domain.
With respect to imported books, the government is well aware of the large proportion of books, listed on the catalogues of Canadian publishing firms, which are printed in other countries and imported into Canada. Most of these originate in Great Britain, in France and in the United States. Those publications number many thousands each year, and although they are published in Canada, in the sense that they are released here for public distribution or sale, the firms handling them are actually acting more in the capacity of agents than publishers. It seems to me it would be unfair to claim two free copies of all these thousands of titles, and it is proposed that regulations will be made under the new legislation which will provide suitable exemptions and will, in fact, confine the deposit requirements to books wholly or partially produced in Canada, books published by Canadian authors and books the contents of which relate in some significant way to Canadian affairs.
To cite a theoretical example, a history of Canada published in Great Britain and imported through an agency in Canada for distribution and sale would have to be sent to the national library. A history of China, however, similarly published outside of Canada and of which some copies might be imported for distribution, would not be required to be deposited in the national library.
It may be well to point out at once that the deposit provision in the proposed bill is much less onerous than similar provisions existing in many other countries. In France, where the law of deposit has been in effect for more than four hundred years, both the printer and the publisher must deposit copies

and an additional copy must be sent in every time the book is reprinted, even though the reprint may not contain any new material. In Great Britain, where deposit is made under a copyright law, as many as six copies may be requested. The Oxford university library, the Cambridge university library, the national library of Scotland and other institutions have, by law, the right to claim copies under the British Copyright Act.
By contrast, the bill we propose to introduce would require a maximum of two copies, and if the work exceeds a certain retail value this requirement is reduced to one copy. The retail value suggested is $25. If the retail value of a book is more than $25, the requirement provided by the bill would be that the deposit of one copy would be sufficient.
I should like to say a word about the union catalogue. I believe that one of the most important duties of the proposed national library will be the preparation of a union catalogue. As this name implies, it is a catalogue in which the individual catalogues of many libraries will be combined in a single alphabetical system. Work on such a program has been in progress in Ottawa for the last two years.
The catalogues of most of the libraries ini Ottawa are now included and those of half a dozen important collections elsewhere have been either completely secured or partially secured. The ultimate aim is to build up a -complete key to the contents of every important collection- of books in Canada, With such a catalogue -in its possession the national library will be able to -tell anyone in the matter -of a few minutes whether a copy of any particular book is to be found in -Canada, and if one exists, the name of the library in which it is located. It is hoped that there will be organized a service whereby the national library will be able to have that book sent here so that it may be available -to the inquirer.
The national library would have the task of preparing and maintaining a national bibliography. By that, -as hon. members know, is meant a complete and systematic listing of all new publications issued in Canada, written by Canadians or relating in any important way to this country. Work on -this project has been in progress since the beginning of 1951, and the bibliography is already being published monthly under the title of Canadiana. I should like to table a complete set of the monthly -bulletins that have been issued so that hon. members may see that already a great deal of valuable work of lasting benefit to the Canadian public has been accomplished by this germ

of our national library, with the modest funds that have so far been voted by parliament to that end.
The bill proposes to continue in a formal way the somewhat informal national library advisory committee which has been in existence since 1948-49. This committee has over the last three or four years been meeting twice a year, and it is not anticipated that the new advisory council would need to meet more frequently than a couple of times a year. It is proposed that it be made up of twelve members, that there be at least one member for each of the ten Canadian provinces, and two others selected at large.
As to the operating policy, it may be well to note that ultimately the new national library is intended to serve both the government and the public. The value to the government is obvious enough. But the library is also planned to serve any citizen of Canada who has need of the information available in the national library itself, or in one of the libraries throughout Canada represented in the union catalogue.
Service to the public will normally be given through another library. If, for example, a person residing in Vancouver has need for certain books that are in the library in Ottawa, he will apply to the Vancouver public library or to the library of the university of British Columbia, and the librarian there would borrow the books from the national library here, instead of the national library here sending them direct to the inquirer. By arranging the loan in this way, the responsibility for borrowing the material will be taken by an institution which knows the person concerned and which will be in a position to supervise his use of the book and to make reasonably sure that no abuses will be committed in that way. I think there is already a mutual arrangement between the university of British Columbia and two or three United States universities whereby their joint library treasures are available to the public of the various communities they serve, and that it is done in that way.
The Canadian Library Association has emphasized many times the importance of having adequate photo-duplicating equipment available in a national library. The reason they give is that many requests will be received for rare or valuable books, or for material which it would not be prudent to allow out of the premises. Photographic copies of these, which can- be made very cheaply, would be furnished instead of the books themselves. Such a procedure would safeguard our rare books and yet make their contents available to those who have a real interest in securing such information. I understand that that is also something which 55704-150
National Library
has had the benefit of practical experience in other institutions where union catalogues are used.
With respect to a building, the proposed legislation has been modelled in large part on the legislation respecting the national gallery which was enacted at the last session of parliament. The gallery, of course, is a corporation having its own board of trustees whilst, under the proposal to be submitted following the adoption of this resolution, the library will be under the direct responsibility of a minister of the crown, the national librarian and the assistant national librarian, but its operations will be largely parallel to those of the national gallery. This will also probably be true in the case of building policy.
The government last year authorized the board of trustees of the national gallery to take appropriate steps looking to the erection of an appropriate building to house the national gallery. Hon. members know that a competition for the selection of an architect has been established by the board of governors of the national gallery. The site for the national gallery has been selected. The site that has been selected is Cartier square where are to be found the temporary buildings now housing much of the Department of National Defence. This competition gives every promise of having excited the interest of the best architectural talent in Canada. The competition is to run until the autumn. It is a competition not necessarily to select the plans for the gallery but to select the architect who will draw the plans; and it is expected that the sketches that will be submitted in this preliminary competition will reveal to the board examining the sketches the qualities of the architect who will prepare them, and his competence or otherwise to carry out the undertaking of providing a suitable national gallery.
There has been no definite selection of a site for the library, but the report suggests that an appropriate site might be on the banks of the Ottawa river at the end of Bank street where a building could be erected with several storeys below the street level, which building would provide valuable and reasonably safe stack space and would be connected with the library of parliament by an underground passage that would provide a physical connection between the two places where the books were being kept. That question has not yet been definitely decided, but it is hoped that it will be possible at an early date to select at least tentatively an appropriate site for a building.
The present thought is that it would be desirable to have a competition open to all

National Library
Canadian architects to submit sketches from which selection of an architect to prepare the plans could be made, and that the plans could be got ready, so that, as soon as circumstances warranted the expenditure and the use of the manpower and material for the erection of the appropriate building, it could be proceeded with and the hazards to which this valuable collection housed in the parliamentary library are subject could be substantially diminished. There is great congestion in the parliamentary library. It contains many many books that could not be replaced at any cost, and I think it is desirable to look upon the provision of proper safekeeping for these treasures as a matter worthy of pretty high priority.
With respect to administration, the bibliographic centre and such national library activities as are being carried on at the present time are conducted under the direction of the dominion archivist. If this proposal meets with the approval of parliament, it is the intention to make the dominion archivist the national librarian, and to continue the policy of developing the national library under his supervision.
The Massey commission expressed the opinion that ultimately the national library and the public archives should develop separately under independent heads. That may be desirable, but the commission went on to say, however, that it felt "it would be unsuitable at this time to break the personal union between the (bibliographic) centre and the archives." And I think some practical experience of joint administration of these two services would appear to be desirable before there is any policy determined with finality with respect to separating them.
There are a good many points in favour of the closest possible relationship between the national library and the public archives, perhaps particularly in view of the special conditions under which we find ourselves here in Canada, and of the fact that public archives are the material upon which many of the books that will come in future into the national library will be based.
In order that the national library may adequately serve the needs of those who habitually work in both official languages, it is proposed to make the first assistant national librarian at this time French-speaking because the librarian will be English-speaking. It is hoped that that kind of precedent would be considered seriously with respect to future appointments. I think it might very well be, as provided in 'the rules of this house, that the principal assistant to the librarian be
IMr. St. Laurent.]
perfectly familiar with the tongue which is not the mother tongue of the librarian.
There is also a provision in the estimates for a small amount for continuing this bibliographic centre's work. It is probable that if the house looks favourably upon this proposal there will have to be another modest provision made in the supplementary estimates. It would be a provision that would be substantially below $100,000 this year; but the amount that is already provided in the estimates would not appear to be sufficient to do what the dominion archivist feels could be accomplished to good purposes at the present time.
I hope that the reaction of all hon. members to this proposal will be much like the reaction of the press since the introduction of the resolution has been announced in the press, and that everyone would feel that this is a matter of national consequence that should be proceeded with with reasonable dispatch and should have among the civilian activities of the Canadian people a high priority.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated
earlier, I am sure that all hon. members will welcome the first step in what would appear to be the fulfilment of a dream that has engaged the imagination and the hopes of Canadians for a very long time.
Ever since this country became one nation at confederation there have been repeated suggestions that a national library would be in keeping with the status and dignity of the nation which had been brought together in that way. One of the things which undoubtedly present a special problem is that the very size of the country itself makes it difficult to determine exactly how far a national library will go in providing books which will be available for all Canadians in every part of Canada.
It is inevitable that a very large proportion of the people of Canada will not find it possible to avail themselves of whatever facilities are provided in the city of Ottawa. For that reason it would seem of very great importance that from the very beginning the thought should always be in the minds of those who are planning the procedure and acquiring the books that whatever is done should be done in a way that will, on the one hand, establish a library truly national in its structure and in the contents of that library itself, and at the same time make it something that as far as possible is available to all Canadians who seek the opportunity to gain knowledge from the books that are stored here and made available under some procedure such as that outlined by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent).

If anyone examines the things that have been said about libraries he will find that there are two very widely separated points of view. To the cynic, a library is merely a cemetery of books. To the person who wishes to dominate the minds of the people, a library is a danger. We have seen in recent years that those who sought to set up dictatorships in different countries in Europe and elsewhere burned some of the great library collections so that those thoughts which might in themselves give heart and vigour to the people who loved freedom would disappear from the country. That has gone on for many centuries, and we read of the similar destruction of libraries even as long as 2,000 years ago. It does seem, therefore, that what is essential in planning this library is that at the outset there be a very clear understanding of the real function of this library in the national life of Canada, and the manner in which it will be made available to the people generally.
A library can either be a mere cemetery of books or it can be a repository of the living thought of the ages depending upon the procedure that is followed in establishing a direct contact between that library and the people themselves. The great task of the highly skilled librarian is to develop an interest in the books of the library, to keep before the people the availability of those books and to encourage their use for whatever purposes they may be sought.
The Prime Minister has spoken of the cataloguing of the books and the setting up of appropriate plans which will lay the foundation for the future acquisition of books throughout the years ahead, A clear determination now of what is to be placed in the national library, and what is to be acquired for that library, as distinguished from the many great public libraries across the country is essential at this time.
I was very interested in the Prime Minister's statement that, following the recommendations of the advisory committee, it was hoped that a site such as that which could be found at the end of Bank street, on the banks of the Ottawa river, might be chosen; because it would then be possible to connect that library by a passage to the library of parliament. In those words the Prime Minister answered a question I had in my own mind. I was interested to know what the future of the library of parliament was to be, and I take the statement he has made as an indication that the library of parliament is to be continued, and that its work will be closely associated with that of the national library. I believe members of parliament will welcome that information, because 55704-1504
National Library
it would be a great inconvenience to them if those books which are normally required by members were not readily available in this building.
On the other hand I am sure there are in the parliamentary library at this time precious volumes it would be wise to move to the new national library building, for purpose of safekeeping. One of the points raised in the report of the Massey commission is that there are in the parliamentary -library extremely valuable volumes which are not adequately protected against the danger of fire.
Also at this time I should like to pay my own tribute, one in which I feel sure every member of parliament will join, to the librarians and the staff of the parliamentary library. I feel sure that every member of the House of Commons has shared my experience in this respect. It would be impossible anywhere to find greater courtesy, greater industry and a greater desire to be of service to the members when they seek information which can be obtained in that library. I have had some experience with libraries in different places, and I must say that I have been deeply impressed with the way in which the librarians, and those associated with them here, are able to find quotations and references in a very short space of time, when requisitions are made to them with a sufficient indication of what is really sought to make it possible for them to use their excellent indexing system. I mention this not only to pay a well-deserved- tribute to these splendid public servants, but also simply to emphasize the fact that in building up a national library here we have the advantage of long years of experience and a skilled staff close at hand who can be of immense help in considering the plans that should be made in connection with the early purchases for the new library, and the plans for acquisitions to be made in future years.
I was happy to hear what the Prime Minister said with regard- to the preparation of a union catalogue. In this vast country-and sometimes I think we are inclined to forget how vast it is-there is great difficulty in integrating activities of a similar nature. Nevertheless it is doubtful if anything could be more helpful to Canadian students of all ages than a union catalogue which will make it possible for them, to learn where they can obtain information on any subject in which they m-ay be interested.
The Prime Minister touched upon an important point when he referred to the close association of the archives with a national

National Library
library. The archives will provide a considerable amount of material which can be used by those Canadians who will write our own history and those works of fiction which, in themselves, in due course become a part of our history.
There are many exciting examples of what our archives have already meant to us. For that reason I should like to recall what seems to me to be one of the most romantic examples of the value of public archives well indexed under various subheadings, so that people may know where to seek certain information. I mention this only in the hope that this particular part of our recent history in Canada may stand as a challenge to the imagination of Canadian youth, when they are told that they will have available to them not only the archives but a national library of this kind.
Our thoughts have been directed in recent years, and in most dramatic circumstances, to the importance of uranium and the various products of pitchblende. For that reason it is of more than passing interest to Canadians to recall how the great radium mine on Great Bear lake came to be discovered. Only a few days ago in the house, in an entirely different type of discussion, reference was made to the fact that the Eldorado mine was discovered by those who had been associated with a gold mine that had ceased to operate profitably, with the result that they had begun to seek a new mining property. It is not very often that a mining company finding itself near the end of its resources in one area goes out and succeeds in finding another mine. These men were looking for another gold mine. They found something that turned out to be infinitely more important, but the way in which they came to find it has a direct bearing on the importance of archives and the indexing not only of the contents of the archives but of the national library which is to be associated with it.
When Gilbert La Bine decided to seek a new mine he recalled having heard something about the discoveries of Samuel Hearne in the Arctic when he was travelling through that region in the 1760's. Hie recalled some reference to mineral deposits in that northern region. He came here and in the archives at Ottawa he found a reference to evidence of a shining metal that Hearne had seen on a promontory which might well be on the shores of Great Bear lake. It was for that reason that he engaged the services of one of the great pioneer bush pilots to fly him to the shores of Great Bear lake. There he sought the mineral deposits of which Hearne had written so many years before.
IMr. Drew.]
Of course there was no map at the time Hearne was there which even gave an indication of that enormous lake in the distant northland which is larger than lake Ontario or lake Erie. They were leaving the area in which they had sought to find a mine and were flying south at a time when the sun was fairly low. They saw the gossan which indicated mineral deposits. It was approaching the time of the freeze-up. They flew farther south and then arranged for dog teams. They went back, and to make an exciting story of Canadian adventure short they found what would appear to be the very mineral outcroppings that Hearne had seen so long ago. That discovery became one of the vital factors in Canada's important part in the recent struggle for freedom.
I mention that incident because it is quite possible that hidden in the archives at this very time there may be other equally interesting references from the past which may well be the guiding star for some Canadian of imagination and enterprise at some time in the future. But whether it be in the field of material achievement as in the case of the discovery of the Eldorado mine or whether it be in the achievements of the mind which in the years ahead will be still more important, the archives and the library will lay the foundation for Canadian development and for the improvement of the life of the country in its most important aspects.
The Prime Minister has spoken of the possibility of employing photography to make copies of important documents. I would hope that those documents which are distinctly a part of the early history of Canada would be photographed and made available in all the main libraries throughout Canada. It can be done at moderate expense and in a way that will make all the information available while [DOT]leaving the original documents safely in Ottawa under the type of protection which should be afforded to the basic history of Canada.
In this respect may I recall that our history has been closely associated with the building up of collections of books. So far as I can ascertain, the first collection of books that might be regarded as a real library was to be found in the early settlement of Port Royal about 1606. It was a private collection which became a source of great satisfaction to the people of the community in those early days. I understand that the first lending library of which there is a record was one established in Quebec by the Jesuit fathers who created a library of some 2,000 volumes. The very existence of these libraries indicates the extent to which those who built the country paid

attention to the importance of books and literature in the building of the culture and fabric of the nation.
In more recent years what are described as free libraries have become commonplace throughout the whole of Canada. At this time there are nearly 700 public libraries throughout Canada circulating close to 25 million volumes of books a year without charge. These are circulated to approximately 1,200,000 registered borrowers. One of the things I should like to emphasize in this connection is how much we are all indebted to the unselfish service of librarians throughout Canada who too often have not received the remuneration that their great responsibilities really merit. I sometimes think that perhaps we have not emphasized sufficiently the great extent to which the librarians in each community are responsible for the quality of the reading of the people of the community. They are not only the individuals who hand out books that are requested but they are the individuals whose advice is sought respecting the type of books that should be read so far as particular subjects are concerned. Their advice is sought frequently in regard to the general type of reading that should be undertaken, and particularly in the case of our children we are greatly indebted to the unselfish service of these librarians across Canada who without very much regard to the amount of money they receive have performed a great service in advancing the culture of this country.
Mr. Speaker, up to this time Canada has been one of the few countries of our stature, wealth and general development which have not been able to claim a national library. Perhaps in times gone by it was thought that there were other things that called for more immediate attention, but after all a library does provide the bread and butter for the mind. In the long history of human conflict the inspired thoughts to be found in the books which record the history of nations have provided the inspiration for the preservation of the things that we thought were worth while. Without in any way seeking to place more importance on one man than upon any other, I should like before closing my remarks to suggest that perhaps there is no case on record where a nation owed so much to libraries as did Great Britain in the days of the war just past.
In this respect 1 apply my remarks particularly to one man. Perhaps it may be some encouragement to many students today, particularly students who at this time are looking forward to impending examinations without too much confidence, to learn that the greatest writer of this day in the
National Library
English tongue, perhaps the greatest writer of English apart from Shakespeare, was a most uncertain and unsatisfactory student at school. It is a matter of record that Winston Churchill developed his facility in English and his capacity for writing from a collection of books which had been sent to him in India from a library at a time when he wanted to fill in the spare moments he had out there.
In his reading, we are told, particularly of history, he laid the foundation for a grasp of history that qualified him, not only as the greatest historian of our day but as a man whose every act has been inspired by the confidence that has come from the record of history throughout the years. I like to think that at the time when all the arithmetic of war made it clear that there was no reason for Great Britain to survive in the spring of 1940 it was knowledge gained from the pages of history, which was in Churchill's mind, that right has given might in the years that have passed, that gave him the fortitude and courage and spirit to give leadership to the whole free world in those desperate days.
The words that he spoke to the British people and to the people of the whole world over the radio at that time came from the pages of history. Even those classic words "blood, sweat and tears" came from an ancient volume which he had read long years before. The thoughts of those who built this nation are thoughts that should be carried into the mind of every Canadian. The high hopes, the great aspirations and the clear moral purpose that inspired our forefathers in the building of this country can best be passed on to the youth of Canada and to the coming generations by making available to them in this way the best that is past and the succeeding thoughts of the present.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all members of the house join in expressing appreciation of the moving of a resolution which foreshadows the establishment in Canada of a national library. I think it has long been a reflection on our national life that Canada was one of the few important nations in the world without a national library. The Massey report made a recommendation which is being carried out, at least in part, today. It was:
That a national library be established without delay; that a librarian be appointed as soon as may be expedient: that the national library advisory committee be reconstituted as a board of trustees of the national library with the librarian as chairman ex officio; that the librarian be charged with the direction of the bibliographic centre which shall be responsible through the librarian to the board of trustees.

National Library
That is substantially the intent of the resolution before the house. As hon. members know, I have long been interested in the establishment of a national library. Indeed during the war, when there was some discussion of a suitable war memorial for Canada, I suggested on more than one occasion that the time had arrived when we might establish as a memorial, not a pile of stone but something that might be regarded as a cultural centre for a national library, a national gallery and a national theatre.
If I had been asked at that time to suggest a suitable site for such a memorial I would have suggested a site in the neighbourhood of the present printing bureau, after that bureau had been removed, and close to the archives. However, this afternoon the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) suggested another site near the supreme court building. I believe that suggestion is a particularly good one. As the Prime Minister pointed out, there are physical features to that site which would make it possible to house, to care for and to protect valuable books. It would also be in close proximity to the parliamentary library. I understand that in connection with the heating system there is a partly completed tunnel which would provide quick means of transporting books between the national library and the parliamentary library as such books were required.
I agree with the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) and the Prime Minister that there should be no thought of displacing the parliamentary library as the library of parliament. I join with other members of the house in expressing personal appreciation to the librarian and the staff of the present parliamentary library. I wonder how they can carry on with the very inadequate facilities that exist. A short time ago I read that when the library was built it was built to accommodate some 60,000 volumes. I am told that today nearly three-quarters of a million volumes are housed somehow in and under the parliamentary library. Anyone who has gone into the basement or the vaults, as they are called, under the present library, with its wooden shelves and structural inadequacies, must be impressed with the danger to the very valuable volumes that are housed beneath the floor of the present library of parliament, and indeed which occupy the shelves of the library itself. Consequently, in the interest of the preservation of the valuable volumes for future generations, it is well I believe that we are taking this initial step to establish a modern fireproof library in Canada.
I hope that, while this establishes a national library, thought is being given to the building of a national gallery more suitable than the

rather dismal and dark halls in which the very valuable pictures owned by Canada are housed today, and that we may be able to round that off in the not too distant future with a national theatre where drama, opera, symphony and cultural activities of that description may be available to the Canadian people, and perhaps through the magic of television carried from that central theatre to even the remote parts of this country. A library, then, is something that the nation requires, and I am sure it will receive public support. I believe it was significant that when the Massey commission on arts, letters and sciences was hearing representations some 90 or 100 briefs were submitted by organizations pointing out the desirability of founding a national library for Canada. In that library could be gathered together the important books of the nation.
I understand that today many of the important volumes are scattered in various departments. I am told that there are something like 200,000 books and valuable pamphlets housed beneath the supreme court building. I am told that there are thousands of books scattered around the departments of government and with the national research council. Not all of those books need be included in a national library, but undoubtedly many of them are volumes that should find a suitable place in a library of this description. I hope that that library will contain all kinds of books. I am a bit alarmed when I hear about the censorship of books. I think a good case can be made out for preventing the circulation of salacious and pornographic literature, but when I look over the list of books I see, for example, books that may be instructive to us or contain warning of the dangers to our way of life which are banned from entry into Canada. If I may mention one without, I am sure, being misunderstood, there is the "Problems of Leninism", by Joseph Stalin.
Now, if we are going to fight Stalinism, if we are going to fight Leninism and communism, we have to know something about them. I am a bit leery of preventing the importation into this country of books which deny to us an understanding of the kind of thing that we may have to fight in Canada. I remember very well reading during my student days, and subsequently, Milton's great work pleading for freedom from censorship, called "Areopagitica"; that plea still lingers in my memory. I remember the remarks of Voltaire when he saw his books being burnt on the streets of Paris. He said, "They can burn my books but they cannot burn my ideas."

I say to the house that I hope in a national library there will be no limitation as to the kind of books that are included in that library, so that students may get a complete understanding of what we may have to cope with in the future and may not be blinded by some kind of censorship. If I may recount a personal experience, some few years ago-I have forgotten the year but about 1924 or 1925-I had a friend in the city of Regina who sent to a secondhand book dealer in Great Britain for a number of books. When these books arrived one was missing. Upon inquiry he was told that the book had been sent back to Ottawa to see if it was fit for importation into Canada. The book was entitled "Socialism, Critical and Constructive", by James Ramsay MacDonald, who had been a prime minister of the United Kingdom. Consequently, when we have any sort of censorship we should make sure that the matter is gone into very thoroughly and very carefully, and those who exercise the censorship should not be, for example, an overworked minister of the crown, as an answer to a question I placed on the order paper indicated yesterday, but persons who are both thoroughly competent and who can devote the necessary time to making an appraisal of the books that may be suggested for censorship.
As I said, the parliamentary library lacks a good many modern facilities today, facilities for students who want to use the library- yes, even for members of parliament. Sometimes members of parliament find it difficult when they go into the library to consult volumes to find a suitable place where they can be quiet and alone to conduct the research they desire to do. Ordinary comfort facilities for the staff are lacking in that library, and consequently we need something more modern. At the moment, we are getting copyright books in the library and that should give us a complete set of the volumes written and published in Canada for which copyright is taken. But as the Prime Minister said, there are written and published outside of Canada many books which deal with Canadian affairs. They should be assembled, cared for and catalogued.
I understand that the work of cataloguing the library has been going on for a couple of years, but it is still incomplete. Moreover, what we need is a catalogue not only of the books in our own national library and parliamentary library but a catalogue of the books scattered around the country in many other libraries. There are some wonderful volumes here and there across Canada. A year or two ago when I was in Fredericton the legislative librarian said she would like
National Library
to show me one of their great treasures. I was shown one of the few large authentic copies of the Doomsday book. That is a treasure for which the province of New Brunswick cares, but which would find a place in a catalogue of valuable volumes in Canada. I also saw one of the original copies of the Audubon series of books, illustrated.
I think it is regrettable that in so many of our provinces, in years gone by, we have not had a library or archives where the letters and books of some of the old-timers and settlers could have been assembled and kept for future generations.
In my own province of Saskatchewan I know that it has only been in the last few years that a competent archivist-and an exceedingly competent one, incidentally-has been appointed and when the records of that province which were lying scattered in the basement, subjected to destruction by mice, moths and other insects, have been properly assembled, sorted out and preserved for the benefit of future generations.
The archives and the library must work together. In this city I have spent days in the archives of Canada, although I have not been there lately. In it there are some wonderful volumes. We have there interesting letters, including correspondence of former prime ministers of Canada, some records of the early explorers and so on. I am happy indeed to hear the Prime Minister say that the present archivist is to be, at least temporarily, the chief librarian and that the two offices are to be combined in one exceedingly able and capable gentleman. I think that is an excellent idea.
I am also happy to support the Prime Minister in the suggestion that the assistant librarian should be one who speaks the language of the other great language group in Canada. As an English-speaking person myself, I realize that that is as it should be.
The leader of the opposition mentioned, as did the Prime Minister, the necessity of photographing documents. A great deal of microfilming has been done already in connection with the present library. With the modern microfilm and the modern process, it will not be necessary to pile up vast quantities of old newspapers. They can be microfilmed and still be available for generations yet to come.
I therefore think that this is a splendid project. I hope the government will be able to proceed with it as rapidly as possible. I hope that we may have a suitable building as soon as conditions permit. I also think that the idea of an advisory committee representative of all the provinces and the official language groups in our country is an excellent idea. I hope that that advisory committee

National Library
will be chosen by the government not because somebody would like to go on it from a certain city, perhaps a friend of the government in power-not necessarily this government, but succeeding governments-placed there as a sort of recognition of political support for a party in power. I would hope rather that persons will be chosen for that advisory committee because of their knowledge of and their interest in books and libraries. I think that is quite important.
Now I have said all that I wish to say, Mr. Speaker. I am speaking not only on my own behalf but on behalf of those associated with me when I say that we welcome this resolution and we hope that the idea will be brought to speedy fruition.
The leader of the opposition mentioned the great contribution that the Right Hon. Winston Churchill had made to the winning of the war because of his knowledge, and his gift in the use, of the English language. I do not think that fact can be overestimated. The more we can encourage our rising generation to understand their own language, be it French or be it English and to be able to speak their own language well, be it French or be it English, the better it will be. It would be better still, of course, for them to be able to speak both languages equally well, as does the Prime Minister, but they should be encouraged to understand at least their own mother tongue and to appreciate its beauties. French is a charming and beautiful language; English, too, is a stately and a beautiful language. Some of us look back over the years to our early training in the English tongue and realize how few were the books that we read. I often say that any gift I may possess I owe not only to my mother tongue but to my mother, at whose knee I learned the beauties of the English language through three simple books, namely the Bible, the Book of Common Prayer and the Pilgrim's Progress.


Mr. Solon E. Low (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, this is one of those happy occasions on which all parties in the house find themselves in agreement. I am glad that in this particular instance it was on a resolution introduced by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) that we could find such happy agreement. We also welcome the resolution, containing as it does the program for the establishment in Canada of a national library.
We want to compliment the Prime Minister on the initial good progress that appears to have been made toward achieving the objective that is outlined in this resolution. From what he said this afternoon I think we can all feel quite happy about the progress that has been made.

At this moment, Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to take up any great length of time because I am afraid that it would be merely repetition. I should like to leave the matter pretty much as it is, because the speeches that have been made this afternoon have been eloquent and have fairly well covered all phases of the problem that confronts us.
The suggestion that the site for the building be down at the end of Bank street is, I think, a happy one. It seems to me quite clear that the future of the parliamentary library has been assured. For the convenience of members of parliament I think it would be a good thing to have a connecting passage between the library of parliament and the new national library when it is completed. I therefore say that the suggestion that the site be at the end of Bank street down near the Ottawa river is a happy one. I have no better suggestion to offer. I can say that.
As to the advisory board which it is proposed to set up, I should like to make this suggestion. I think Alberta has a representative on the present board; but if my information is correct, that representative is not a well-known person interested in national libraries. Also, if I am correctly advised, that person has not attended the meetings of the board. I should like to see appointed from each province someone who has indicated in the past a real and sincere interest in the development of the national library and who will make it a point to attend meetings when they are called and to contribute, out of his experience, to the achievement of the fine objective that we have set before us.
In connection with the provision of a building, it must be remembered that we are a young country; and we do not want to repeat the experience that we have had with the parliamentary library. As the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) has already pointed out, it was originally anticipated that the parliamentary library would perhaps accommodate 60,000 volumes. But today it is called upon to accommodate, to administer and to take care of something like 750,000 volumes. It seems quite clear that because we are a young country and have much time before us and great development ahead of us we ought to plan carefully so as to provide adequate space to take care of our needs for many many years to come.
I think that that is about the only suggestion I might make in connection with the provision of a building. I do feel, Mr. Speaker, *that there are many services which the *national library could extend to the people of Canada, and especially to the struggling community libraries all across this great country.

The idea of a union catalogue is a splendid one; in fact it is one which I am sure has within it a great many more good things and possibilities for our country that we now envision. I am very happy to learn that steps have already been taken to start the registration in such a union catalogue.
Let me just conclude by saying, Mr. Speaker, that we in this party feel that priority should be given to this great project, and that the work should go forward with that speed that is consistent with the importance of the project itself.


Mr. R. R. Knight (Saskatoon):: I cannot let this motion pass without saying a word or two on this subject, which is very dear to my heart. It is unusual to speak in an atmosphere of such accord, and I should simply like to endorse most, in fact I think nearly all, of the things which have been said by previous speakers. The only thing I might find fault with in what the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) said is that he said that existing conditions may cause some delay in the carrying out of the fulfilment of what has been up to the present a dream to many. I know it has been a dream of my leader, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), ever since I have known him. As a matter of fact, before I was associated with him at all I heard him make a speech on this particular subject.
I was particularly interested in the Prime Minister's statement, and it is to that that I might address my remarks. The Prime Minister said there would be, he hoped, the closest co-operation of the new library with many of the public libraries throughout the country. That is perhaps one of the most important things that he said in his very pleasant announcement.
There has been a word or two of protest on the part of some of my correspondents as to the location of the national library. Their view was that perhaps Ottawa, with the national gallery and other cultural things, might be getting more than its share. I may say that my view does not coincide with that of those correspondents, because if we are to have a truly national library, then Ottawa is the place in which it will have to be built.
When I speak of the great assistance that a national library can be to outlying centres I would like to point out that most of our library facilities are in the city. That is no doubt natural but perhaps unfortunate. Libraries and books are to me, and I think to all of us, the greatest source of adult education. May I say, without any disparagement, that we are in need of adult education. It is true, as I said in another speech the other day, that 50 per cent of the people in Canada today have 55704-151
National Library
a grade VIII, that is a public school, education standard, or less. For a country with our potentialities, with our present wealth and potential resources, I do not think that is a good record. In these days one needs something better than a public school education, although many of the men who served this country best did not have anything more.
There is an unfortunate feeling around, and I think particularly among high school graduates, that those who attain the standing of a university entrance, or grade XII as it was called, have more or less completed their education. I think, sir, we should agree that they have only begun their education; that they have only become equipped with the tools through which they can gain an education for themselves which after all is the best way and the only way that one can gain it in any case.
I think reading is the greatest thing, the greatest asset, the greatest instrument of that education. We have not been noted as a nation of readers. I was looking through an interesting lot of statistics, a survey of libraries, issued by the government of Canada for
1948-50, and I was startled by some of the figures that I found there. I was looking at the summarized expenditures on public libraries for 1949. On page 9 I find for example- and I do not want to enter into any particular disparagement of any particular province; I can only give the figures as they come-that on books and periodicals the expenditure in the different provinces in the year 1949 was as follows. I will give merely the round figures. In Prince Edward Island, $6,000; Nova Scotia, $5,000; New Brunswick, $6,000; I shall now give some of the higher ones: Ontario, $582,711; Manitoba, $39,000; Saskatchewan, $36,000; Alberta, $56,000; and British Columbia almost $100,000. Those figures are amazing to me. Perhaps it will come out more clearly when I give the table which is found on page 12. This is a table on service and support of city libraries by geographic areas. The table is given in expenditure per capita. I would have you note, sir, that it is not in dollars, but in cents. The expenditure per capita on libraries in the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick combined is 28 cents; on public libraries, in the province of Ontario, $1.03. Then we come to the prairie provinces and we find that it averages 90 cents. As I say, I am not bringing these out for any invidious comparison as between provinces, but generally to show the condition all across the country, a condition of which I am not particularly proud.
We are on the eve of, if we are not already in, a great period of expansion, a period in which more leisure may be anticipated. It

National Library
is a fact that our working hours are shorter. We have a five-day week in many places; we have a clear week end; and there is one thing we need to learn, if we need to learn anything: we need to learn how to use our leisure time properly, how to spend it. As one solution to that problem we should put books in the hands of the people. Classical and standard works should be available, not just in some places, not just in cities, but everywhere. At the moment there is a deplorable lack of facilities for reading.
At this point I would give another example and, again, I must go to one of the maritime provinces. I do not recall the name of the town-and, even if I did, perhaps I would not give it; because I have discovered in the house that one is likely to get into difficulties with members representing the places named. However, I do recall that the town in question was on the bank of a river-and I believe it was either in or not far from the constituency represented by the Minister of Resources and Development (Mr. Winters).
I was there one Friday evening and on the following Saturday morning had some time to spend. With the time available, I took a walk around the town. I would have said, looking at that town, that perhaps it was one of the most prosperous in Canada. There was an excellent high school, and it occurred to me that on a Saturday morning I would meet large numbers of children returning from the public library with great bundles of books in their arms-just as I see them coming from our own public library, and its various branches, in Saskatoon.
I did not see any of that. I met an old gentleman on the street and said, "Could you direct me to the public library?" He looked at me in astonishment and said, "We have no public library here." In conversation with him I said, "What do you do when you want to read? You must find it expensive to buy all your own books at present prices." He said, "I assure you we have no reading facilities here." He did point out to me that a group of ladies-I believe it was the I.O.D.E.-had a few books in their clubroom for the use of their members, but apart from that there were no other reading facilities. I have never forgotten that little experience.
It was the experience I had in that town that prompted my search for the statistics I have just placed on record. Then, if we are to have a national library, as well as efficient branches throughout the country to co-operate with it, we must have more and better trained librarians. I do not know what the experience has been in the different provinces, but I know in my own province we
[Mr. Knight.l
grant scholarships to send young people east to learn to be librarians. But that is only a drop in the bucket.
Then, we have travelling libraries serving the scattered rural areas. In the pioneer days we found those most beneficial. The travelling library, set up by the provincial government, may establish a local branch in a store or some other place that would be handy for those people wishing to borrow books. I think it is part of the responsibility of the government to see that there is a wide dissemination of books. I believe it is the responsibility of any government to encourage the cultivation of public tastes. I have no doubt there will be disagreement with that statement. I may be told that this is a free enterprise business, that there is no demand for books, that they will not find their way to the market, and so on. With that in mind I shall be content to let the statement go as I have made it.
The people of Canada find difficulty in obtaining books. I know that, because I have lived in country places and have known a total absence of books. In some places the only reading material available is a weekly newspaper; there is not even a daily paper. Then, there may be a dozen or so books to be found in the little country school library.
In this respect there is a remarkable difference between Canada and Britain. Everywhere one goes in Britain he will find book stores. That is one of the most noticeable features. There are book stores everywhere, in every little town-book stores handling secondhand books, and those handling new books. There are available first-class cheap editions of classical and standard works, which used to sell for sixpence, but would now sell for perhaps a shilling. For the expenditure of that sum one can get good reading material.
We have now made in Canada a beginning in literature and the arts. We are the heirs of those who have gone before us, of the thousands of years in the development of civilization. For the creation of things now and in the future we are dependent upon those of the past. Even original creators must have those things available to them as a basis for their ideas. That is true of the expression of ideas by the great minds of our time and of all preceding times.
As my leader has said, I believe there should be freedom in reading. With him, I am concerned about censorship, and particularly political censorship. Were it not for the youth of the country, and those for whose choice of reading material we are responsible, I would be inclined to say that, outside the provisions of the Criminal Code, there should

be no censorship at all. 1 realize that in this respect there is a problem, and that in some cases we are dealing with people whose judgment is immature.
Generally speaking, however, I would like to see the table set with a generous diet of all types of literary food; and I have enough confidence in the good sense of the Canadian people to believe that they will pick those things for their intellectual nourishment rather than those which would be injurious.
The mind must be free; the intellect must be free. The adult at least must have liberty of choice in his literary diet, so that he may choose those things which are good for him. No one, least of all some customs officer, should be able to prescribe the things the citizen shall or shall not read. I have said the need for books in Canada is great and that books are the greatest concern in national education. They are only the Cinderellas among its agencies. They have not the glamour of the radio or of the comic strip or of the movies, or the potentialities of television. Books must be made available; they must be on the shelves, and should be there in cheap editions. They should be in the public libraries of every town, of every hamlet and of every village across this country.
Yes, the need for libraries is great. They deserve all the support the government can give them, and the support and co-operation about which the Prime Minister spoke this afternoon which may be accorded to them by the national library. I would like a measure of federal aid to the humanities in somewhat the same proportion as it is being given to science. Education through books is the common concern of all parts of this nation; for the stature of the nation will ultimately be determined by the physical, spiritual and intellectual well-being of its citizens.


Mr. Daniel Mclvor (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I shall have a few questions to ask but, without making a speech at this time, I shall ask them in committee.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I should like to express personally and on behalf of the government, and I think also on behalf of the people of Canada, appreciation of the attitude taken by the leaders of the different parties in the house, and those for whom they speak, in regard to this resolution which has for its purpose the establishment of a national library for the Canadian people.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
55704-151J
National Library


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I must admit that before I heard the statement of the Prime Minister and the discussion I was critical of the resolution for two reasons. In the first place I was critical because of the amount of money it would take from the taxpayers. However, the leader of the opposition and the leaders of the other groups have not said a word about extravagance; therefore it must be all right, and that satisfies me. In the second place I thought there would be some overlapping. In Ottawa we have the parliamentary library, the public library and certain other libraries, but the Prime Minister has indicated that there is to be a national library and that there will be distributing centres-if I am wrong I should like to be corrected-in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Fort William, let us say. Will these books be made available free of postage to those who want to become acquainted with Canadian affairs? I do think that the national library will provide an opportunity to sell Canada to Canadian citizens, and I think that is one of the glaring needs today. Our citizens want to know about the greatness of our land. High school teachers and university professors will welcome this library.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I am not able to give the hon. member the assurance that no postage stamps will be required on correspondence with the national librarian, but I am sure experience will show what is the best manner in the interests of the greatest number to make the national library of service to the development of our pride in Canadian citizenship, and that whatever experience shows to be desirable will be considered at the appropriate time in order to make the library fulfil the purpose for which it is intended.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Thank you.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There are a few questions I should like to ask the Prime Minister. They are based on complete support of the proposal for a national library, support which has been expressed already by all those who have spoken on the resolution. First of all I should like to ask a question or two relating to the matter of the building itself. I listened with interest to what the Prime Minister had to say, which was of course based very largely on what is set out in the Massey report and in the progress report of the national library advisory committee. We are all interested in the suggested site for the building, and it does seem to have a number of points in its favour. In fact the national library advisory committee in discussing the matter says that it has come across only one objection to the proposal, namely that it would do away with a certain amount of parking space available there at the present time, but the committee

National Library
immediately points out that even that problem could be solved in a way that the committee suggests.
We are all conscious of the problem that arises in connection with any building project at the present time because of the shortage of steel and other building materials. But I should like to emphasize the fact that the national library advisory committee in its progress report and recommendations made in November, 1951, did pronounce rather strongly on this matter. I point out that this report was made after the Massey report, and it was made in the light of present conditions. Recommendation No. 3 reads:
In order that the national library proper may be able to function effectively at the earliest possible moment, three steps should be taken without delay:
A site for the national library building should he chosen, and the committee recommends strongly that the building be placed on the bank of the Ottawa river, immediately to the west of parliament hill.
An architect should be appointed to design the building.
Construction of the library, or of a first unit, should be begun as soon as is consistent with the needs of the defence program.
The question I should like to put to the Prime Minister is whether the legislation forecast by this resolution provides authority to go ahead with the selection of the site, the appointment of an architect and perchance the construction of the building itself. Would further legislation be required for these steps or can these steps be taken under the legislation now proposed?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The legislation now proposed would give authority to go ahead when parliament will have appropriated funds. The only further requirement would be a vote by parliament of the funds required to carry out projects for which there would be authority to make proposals to parliament in the present legislation.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I take it the statement of the Prime Minister that the government accepts the progress report and recommendations of the national library advisory committee means that the government is in sympathy with the views expressed as to the desirability of proceeding with the building as soon as possible.


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: That is quite true. I thought I had emphasized that in expressing my concern, which I am sure is that of all those who know the facts, about the safety of the valuable records that we already have. I think it would be very desirable just as soon as it can be arranged to have safer storage quarters for those things that could not be replaced if we were so unfortunate as to lose them.


Stanley Howard Knowles: My next question relates to something the Prime Minister spoke about earlier. He referred to recommendations both in the Massey report and in the national library advisory committee's report that the library should provide certain services such as microfilming, duplicating books where necessary, getting copies of them in from other parts of the country and so on. What I should like to know is whether this legislation will cover all these various services. My reason for raising the question is because of the wording of the resolution which says in part that there is to be "a special account to which shall be credited any money appropriated by parliament for the purpose of acquiring books." I should like to know whether that fund can be used for these other purposes and services to which the Prime Minister referred, or is it contemplated that they will be taken care of in some other way?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Of course there is nothing very definite about it, but it is contemplated at the present time that there might be votes by parliament for the acquisition of books and that those votes should not lapse at the end of the fiscal year but should be like the votes that are made for the acquisition of pictures by the national gallery. If a vote is made for the national gallery for the purpose of acquiring pictures or objects of art it does not lapse. It is available until it has been expended, but the ordinary normal administration expenses are provided for each year by a special vote.


Stanley Howard Knowles: My next question relates to the recommendation of the Massey commission that the present national library advisory committee should be reconstituted as a board of trustees. I note that the resolution indicates, and the Prime Minister did likewise when he spoke, that rather than a board of trustees, and rather than an advisory committee, we are to have an advisory council. I realize that the Prime Minister did comment on this. For example, he referred to the situation with respect to the national gallery as compared to the national library. Would he comment further on why the government decided to have an advisory council rather than a board of trustees as recommended by the Massey commission?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: This is intended to take care of the experimental stage. The Massey commission recommended that ultimately there be two separate organizations for the national library and the archives, but that provisionally it might be better to have the two administrations under the same head. The government accepts that recommendation. The archives, the library of parliament,

the library of the national research council and those of various departments will be called upon during the organizational stage to contribute to the establishment of the national library. It was felt that during that period it would be more desirable to have it part of the civil service of the Canadian government rather than to have a board of trustees for the national library at a time when a large portion of the organizational work would be done through agencies of the civil service which exist already.
It may be that when the set-up has been completed it will be found desirable to have it under a board of trustees, but it was felt that for the organizational period it would be better to keep it part of the ordinary civil service under the direction of the gentleman who is now the archivist and who is most competent as such. We think he would be most competent too to direct the organiza'-tional work of the national library.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is it the intention to appoint as members of this advisory council the same persons who are now members of the national library advisory committee?


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: No consideration has been given to the personnel of the advisory council beyond the fact that it was felt that the two librarians of parliament should be members of that advisory council.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I hope it will not hurt her chances if I recommend that you keep the person who has represented Manitoba. Miss Elizabeth Dafoe is a most competent person in this field.
What steps are being taken to carry out the recommendations of the Massey commission with respect to rearranging things in our own library of parliament? I have in mind the specific recommendation that the books and works there might be divided into two groups. There is one group of books and works that are referred to more regularly and then there is a large group of books and material which are not looked at very often but which are kept there because of their value and for safekeeping. I realize that when the whole program is carried out eventually that problem can be dealt with, but I was wondering if there is any plan to deal with it in the immediate future so that even now the library of parliament may work along the lines suggested by the Massey report?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: No, the only planning that has been done at the present time has been to have this union catalogue completed at the earliest possible moment. That will be
National Library
most helpful in determining the place where books belonging to the Canadian people through the Canadian government should be placed. When there has been a cataloguing of those books and sufficient stack space has been provided it will be a matter for the librarian and the advisory council to determine where it will be most convenient to have these books kept.
There is no doubt that there are too many books in the library of parliament for convenient access and the proper carrying out of the work of the librarians and their assistants. At least two-thirds of those books should be kept elsewhere. A selection will have to be made. That selection will be made in the knowledge revealed by this cataloguing of all books belonging to the people and now distributed throughout the several government offices.


Mr. Graydon:: The Prime Minister may have dealt with the matter I have in mind during the short time I was out of the chamber when he was speaking, but I should like to ask what provision is being made for the safekeeping and preservation of information in the way of recordings both on records and film. In recent times this information has assumed a significance that never was thought of a few years ago. Many of these sound films and recordings will have a historical value in the years to come and they will have to be stored somewhere. Perhaps as years go by there will be an even greater volume of this type of information which will form part of our history of today in the days of tomorrow.
Over the week end I listened to a recording of the life of the present Queen Elizabeth which in my opinion was one of the finest of its kind, both from a historical standpoint and from the point of view of current history. I am wondering if attention has been drawn to the importance of the matters I have mentioned and what is proposed to be done about it.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Up to the present time all sound recordings have been kept by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. They have at the originating studios a large number of recordings. I have not looked at them recently, but I know they have a system of cataloguing because when I have applied for certain recordings it never took them very long to tell me where they were. With regard to sound films, the film board has a catalogue of everything that it is keeping as part of its accumulation of treasures. It may well be that the time will come when certain of these things will not be looked upon as current, and will be housed merely for
23S8

National Library
safekeeping in some kind of structure that will protect them against destruction from one cause or another.
I know that not very many months ago, in connection with the film board, we were very much concerned over the danger of the destruction of some films and the danger of fires or explosions resulting from the accumulation of these films at the film board studios in Ottawa. Premises were secured in a remote area where provision was made for the proper storage of the films, to protect them and to avoid having them be a source of danger to their surroundings. No doubt that is a matter which will have to be dealt with some day, because we cannot go on accumulating films in the operating studios which are not apt to be referred to at all frequently. In this legislation no provision is being made for anything but writings and books and the like. The other matter will no doubt press forward for consideration as time goes on. We have had to provide storage facilities for films because there is a danger of their being destroyed and they are, themselves, dangerous after a certain period unless they are properly cared for.


Gordon Graydon: In connection with the
national library when it is finally established and in operation, will it be working in conjunction or in collaboration with any of the other libraries across Canada? If so, what will be the degree of co-operation that may be expected between the central library and other libraries?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Their relations will be on a contractual basis, and a contract requires at least two parties to make it. Their relations will be the result of a contractual arrangement between them, and the only thing I had in mind was the illustration I gave about the exchange system that has been developed between the university of British Columbia and three or four universities in the United States. They have a union catalogue, and if someone in Vancouver wants something that is not available in the library of that university but is available in one of the associated libraries, the librarian of the university communicates with the library where the book is to be found. It is sent to Vancouver on the responsibility of the university of British Columbia, and there the librarian makes it available in the manner he feels fitting to the person who wants to consult it. In some cases that person is not allowed to remove the book from the reading rooms of the library, and in another case it can be removed as if it were a book belonging to the library of the university.

There is also frequent recourse to this procedure: instead of sending the book a microfilm is made of the pages or material that is required and the microfilm is sent. The intention is to have this developed by expert technicians, making use of the experience of others, to establish and operate a system that will make the organization as beneficial to as many as possible.


Mr. Thatcher:: Will the Prime Minister
indicate in a very general way at this stage of the resolution just what this is going to cost us? Would he indicate how much the building is going to cost and how much the general administration is going to cost?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I cannot indicate how much the building is going to cost because building costs are not very stable at the present time; and I cannot indicate when the building is going to be started, nor even what its dimensions are apt to be. The pattern is very apt to be the same as has been followed by the national gallery. If the hon. gentleman will get a copy of this booklet which is available, "The National Gallery of Canada Competition", he will see how the board of governors of the national gallery is proceeding with that competition to choose an architect, and what is apt to follow the selection of the architect.
With respect to the increase in expenditures over what is provided for in the estimates which are before the house, the estimate for the bibliographical service now is $48,109, and that is to carry on the same work as has been going on for the last two years. The actual expenditure for 1950-51 was $30,339; in 195152, it was $37,151. Dr. Lamb estimates that the additional work for a full year might amount to something of the order of $60,000, making about $108,000 in all. That would be the expenditure that would be incurred for the organizational work until we get around to the point of either purchasing new books or putting up a new building; that would be for the completion of the work required to publish this union catalogue, which it is hoped to complete within five years; to add to this "Canadiana" which is now being published monthly, other departments making it a full fledged national bibliography, and to organize the first unit of the cataloguing department of the national library proper in order that work may start on the task of cataloguing the thousands of books now under the supreme court building and elsewhere. The additional expense that is apt to be required for the current fiscal year might be of the order of $50,000 or $60,000.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: Very respectfully, I wonder if no estimate has been made whatever of what this project is going to cost the taxpayers; that is what I should like to get at.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: No, Mr. Chairman, no estimate has been made of what this project will cost the taxpayer. It is felt that it will not cost the taxpayer more than its intrinsic, monetary value, and that its developmental value for the Canadian people will be beyond its intrinsic monetary value or cost.


Wilbert Ross Thatcher: I agree that probably it will. But it seems strange that the government of Canada should come before parliament asking for a project and not give us some idea of what the cost is going to be. I should like to be respectful but may I at the same time ask this question: Is this going to be another project-like, for instance, the Prime Minister's house-where we start out, keep adding and adding, and do not know where we are going? I think an estimate should be made. I do not see why it should be difficult for it to be made.


Mr.   Si. Laurenl@: Mr. Chairman, when there is the prospect of going ahead with the work an estimate will be prepared and there will be a request to parliament to vote the money. If the hon. member is here at that time, he can criticize it and vote against it if he thinks it is extravagant.


Gordon Graydon: As a matter of information, may I ask the Prime Minister how many books there are now in the present library of parliament? Perhaps the Prime Minister did not come prepared to give that information; but if he has it, we should like it to be given.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I should not like to be positive about that figure. At the present time about 2 million books are listed in what has been done so far on the union catalogue, most of those books being in libraries in Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal. I do not know how many belong to the Canadian people and how many belong to the other libraries of the number that are comprised in this figure of 2 million that have already been catalogued.


Gordon Graydon: If the Prime Minister can get the information, perhaps he might give it to the committee some time. It is a matter of some interest. Those who go through the library from time to time ask how big the library is and how many books are in it. This information would, I think, satisfy the curiosity of the members of the house. There is a wide area covered by the books that are in the library. As the Prime Minister knows, they go all the way from children's books to books on Einstein's theory of relativity. That
National Library
illustration shows the extent of the fields they cover. I had occasion to find that fact out for myself through a rather interesting experience some years ago when one of the junior members of our family was down here and found herself in the library taking out a book which satisfied her extent of learning. Some six months later I was amazed to be billed for the book. The communication I received stated that Mr. Graydon had taken out a volume entitled "The Bobbsey Twins in Toyland" and that I ought to return it at once. I therefore have occasion to speak with some measure of personal experience with regard to the capacity of the library to satisfy readers of all ages.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) mentioned about three-quarters of a million books. I think that figure is somewhat exaggerated. The figure I get from Dr. Lamb is that there are about 550,000 books in the library of parliament. The other information I had was that the cataloguing that has been done thus far comprises something over 2 million books in Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto, which it is hoped by this system to make available. There may be quite a lot of duplication in the 2 million volumes that have been catalogued but the effort will be to avoid unnecessary duplication. There are, of course, some books that it will be desirable to have in all these libraries; but there are others the presence of which in one library may be sufficient for the needs of those who apply to libraries elsewhere.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, a number of references have been made this afternoon to the large number of books in the parliamentary library and to the difficulty that confronts any of us who go there if we try to find certain books ourselves. Nevertheless, I think a tribute should be paid to the staff of that library for the efficient service they give us. They seem to be able to find almost any book we can possibly ask for, and they are able to dig it out quite readily. The service is of the best, but even so, I am sure we all agree that the facilities, for their sake and ours, should be greatly improved.
A few moments ago the hon. member for Peel and the Prime Minister were discussing the question of films and recordings of one kind or another. I noted that the Prime Minister's reply was to the effect that at the moment it is not contemplated that the national library collection should go beyond books and similar items. I should like to draw to the attention of the Prime Minister the fact that this question was discussed in the Massey report. On pages 104 and 105 there is a record of the representations made

National Library
to the commission on these matters. Then there is a recommendation over on page 332 of the Massey report. In the earlier part of the volume it is pointed out that representations were made that the national library might be a depository for, amongst other things, maps, music, art, photographs, films and recordings. When one hears art mentioned, he realizes that is something that would seem to be better in the national gallery. But at page 332 of its report, the Massey commission made this recommendation:
That the board of trustees be empowered to add to its collection Canadian music, in printed or manuscript form, and such records, films and photographs as are considered necessary supplements to the printed collection of books, pamphlets and newspapers ...
And so on. I do not press it as an argument at this time, but I think it should be on the record at this point. I trust that the authorities will bear in mind this recommendation when the national library is being set up. Indeed, if it is recognized that one of the functions of the national library is to be that of a repository not only of material that is referred to day by day but of items that tell the story of Canada across the years, it would seem that items of this other kind should be there along with books and similar documents.
I wish to say one other word, Mr. Chairman. I make this suggestion on behalf of my leader, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, who had to leave the chamber in order to attend another meeting; it is in connection with the building itself. We all understand that the motion before us does not provide for the erection of a building. In answer to a question of mine earlier, the Prime Minister made it clear that authority will be provided by this resolution to look into the question of the site, the engaging of an architect and the collecting of designs. I express the hope -and in doing so I support the recommendation of the national library advisory committee and others-that as little time as possible will be lost in proceeding with the project of the building itself. The national library will not be a reality until we have a building. Let us hope it can be erected soon. *
The suggestion that my leader was anxious to make, had he been able to stay, was to the effect that consideration be given, when the plans for the building are in contemplation, to both the artistic and the functional aspects of modern architecture. There are libraries that go in for the artistic type, and there are libraries which are designed on functional lines; there are many of the latter in the world today. It would seem that there is room for both considerations. We hope

attention will be given to both of those aspects when the time comes-and we hope that time is not far off-to consider the project of the building itself.


The Chairman:: Shall the resolution carry?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
Resolution agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall I report the resolution?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. St. Laurent thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 245, respecting the establishment of a national library.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Canada Grain Act to provide for the reappointment of grain commissioners and for increases in their salaries; to provide also for the appointment and salaries of three assistant grain commissioners instead of four; and to provide further for certain technical amendments of the statutory grades of grain.


Mr. Ross (Souris):: Will the minister be making a statement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The proposed amendments to the Canada Grain Act fall into four general categories.
The first relates to the salaries and appointments of the members of the board of grain commissioners, and of the assistant grain commissioners. The present salaries, fixed in 1930, are no longer adequate. The lack of any specific provision in the act for reappointment of the commissioners is being corrected. The number of assistant grain commissioners is being reduced from four to three.
Secondly, there is a revision relating to section 85 of the act which specifies the form in which certain records maintained by the elevator operators must be kept.
A further amendment is intended to give authority to the governor in council to issue regulations. In the act, as it is now, only the board of grain commissioners may make regulations or orders.
Finally, there are some amendments to the definitions of statutory grades which are set out in the schedules to the act.

At this time, Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer briefly to the work of the board of grain commissioners. Usually when wheat matters are being discussed in this house, attention is centred on particular marketing or delivery problems. Because the board's work is of a detailed and technical nature, it is very easy for the public to overlook the importance of it and the competence with which it is being done. We all speak frequently of the high reputation enjoyed by Canadian grains in the markets of the world, a reputation which is a direct result of the efficiency of the inspection and grading system administered by the board of grain commissioners. I am happy to have this opportunity to pay tribute to their work.
Referring again to the amendments which are being proposed, it should be noted that they include no amendment with respect to overages at country elevators. This question has been referred to frequently in this house, particularly during the last two sessions. Representations have been made to the government that overages arising as a result of country elevator operations should be confiscated and the proceeds distributed through the wheat board to producers. After careful consideration the government has come to the conclusion that such a proposal could lead only to greater difficulties. Moreover, it would not provide a satisfactory solution for the individual farmer who feels that he has special ground for complaint. All that such a farmer would receive by way of recompense would be a minute addition to his participation payment.
The record shows that, year in and year out, shortages or overages are an extremely small fraction of the total quantities of grain handled. In a return tabled in the house recently it was shown that during the crop year 1950-51 gross overages of all country elevators were only -08 of 1 per cent of total quantities received at country elevators and net overages were only -28 of 1 per cent. Under the exceptional conditions of the preceding five years the net overage for wheat was -24 of 1 per cent. Some elevator houses, of course, experienced shortages.
In the light of all the information it has had available, the government has not felt justified, without having the soundness of such a course much more clearly established, in putting forward an amendment which would carry out the recommendation that country elevator overages should be confiscated and delivered to the wheat board. The matter of finding the best solution of this problem is a difficult one, and I hope it will be given thorough study in the agriculture committee.
Canada Grain Act
I may say, Mr. Speaker, that it is my intention to recommend that the bill which will be based on this resolution, after it has obtained second reading, be sent to the agriculture committee for study.


James Arthur Ross: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to hear the minister announce that the bill will be referred to the agriculture committee for study. I think that should reduce considerably the comment at this particular stage.
The duties of the board of grain commissioners are very important. They have a heavy task. I was also glad to hear the minister pay a tribute to the commissioners for the very onerous work they have had to perform in the past. Many people in this country do not realize what the duties of the grain commissioners really are. In fact many grain producers get the grain commissioners mixed up with the wheat board, whose functions are very different. For example, the board of grain commissioners are responsible for the grading of grain; the weighing of any grain; the deductions made from any grain for dockage or shrinkage; any shortage appearing upon the delivery of any grain into or out of any elevator; the unfair or discriminatory operation of any elevator; the deterioration of any grain during storage or shipment; the refusal or neglect of any person to comply with any provisions of the act or of any regulation made or licence issued pursuant thereto. Then they are also responsible to some extent for the transportation of grain and the allocation of cars and so forth.
When the matter is referred to the committee on agriculture for further study, I would hope that some of the officials responsible for grading, and even the chief chemist, might be available for questioning before the committee. I say that because some doubt has arisen as to whether the weather conditions of the past couple of years or anything else have been responsible for difficulties in grading. There is some doubt in the prairie provinces as to whether we have the best system of grading wheat and cereals in this country. Just across the border in the United States their wheat is graded, I think, more on the protein content than in this country. Therefore I think it will be very useful if the minister or his proper officials would arrange to have Dr. Anderson, I think it is, the chief chemist of the board of grain commissioners, and such officials as that available for questioning before the committee, because it certainly would be very instructional to the members and to the producers of wheat back home who have a very vague understanding, and in some cases a misunderstanding, of this whole undertaking.

Canada Grain Act
Since the measure is to be referred to the committee I do not wish to take up any further time. I hope the minister will make these officials available to the committee so we can obtain information and try to come to an understanding as to whether we really have the best system of grading grain at the present time in Canada. It is a very vexed question, and X hope that will be done.


Mr. P. E. Wright (Melfort):: I should like to say a very few words at this stage of the proceedings. I am glad the minister is having this bill referred to the agriculture committee, and also the annual report of -the board of grain commissioners, where they can be discussed and we can get further evidence. I think the suggestion of the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) with regard to having certain officials of the board before the committee is very good. The board of grain commissioners for years have had the reputation of being the watchdog of the farmers' interests in the grain trade. Sometimes I think, particularly during the last few years, they have lost contact with the farmers. Just whose fault that is, I do not know. I think sometimes the duties of the board should be given more publicity by the board itself, so that they may keep that direct contact with the farmer.
The result of this is that there has been considerable criticism of the board in the last two or three years with respect to the matter of overages, and certain other matters. The minister has stated that the government have considered the representations made to them with respect to overages and decided that no further amendments should be made in this matter. I suggest that before he closes his mind on the subject some of the farm representatives should be heard before the committee on agriculture. I do not think any harm could be done by that. If they have a case, well and good; if they have not, then the committee on agriculture would: be able to listen to their evidence and to the evidence given by the handling firms in the trade, and come to some conclusion in the matter.
The present amendments are not major amendments. I think through the years we have to take the Canada Grain Act at certain intervals, and go over it to see that it is up to date and in line with our present methods of handling crops in western Canada. There has been a revolution in the last ten years in the marketing and handling of western grain. The combine has displaced the old threshing machine, and trucks have displaced the wagon in which, grain used to be delivered. Today crops are handled much faster and under conditions quite different from what they were ten or fifteen years

ago. This has created problems, and those problems can be ironed out only through consultation with farm, organizations and handling firms. That is why I think we should have a thorough discussion of this whole grain handling question before the committee on agriculture.
The matter of the car order book has been to the front in western Canada. The controller has discontinued the use of that book, and he may have very good reasons for doing so. In western Canada, however, there has been criticism of this procedure, and I think we should hear representatives of farm organizations before the minister comes to any firm decision. Witnesses should be called from handling firms and farm organizations in western Canada. If out of that discussion come some further amendments which the committee believes should be included, then they should be placed in this measure before it is returned to the house.


Mr. Victor Quelch (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to support the resolution, and I am also pleased that the minister proposes to refer the matter to the committee on agriculture. As was stated by the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright), I hope the agricultural organizations will be permitted: to make their submissions to the committee. When the matter is being dealt with I hope the minister will allow a full discussion of matters connected with the Canada Grain Act, and that we will not be tied down to a discussion of only the amendments in the measure.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think I could, even if I tried,


Victor Quelch: I am glad to have that assurance. I realize the question of overages is a difficult one. On the other hand I am sorry there is no amendment proposed to deal with the matter. I have always felt that to a large extent the solution lies within the hands of the farmers. They sell their grain to the pool elevators, and the benefits of the sales of overages come back to them in participation dividends.
I realize, of course, that it is not possible for all farmers to sell grain to the pool elevators, because if all grain were held there we would find congestion. I have always sold to the pool elevators, and the question of overages has never worried me because I feel I will get back any adjustment there may be, or at least my proportion of it, when the participation dividends are paid.
As I am a member of the committee, I shall not say more at this time.


Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia):: Mr. Speaker, with other members I welcome the minister's announcement that this bill will be sent to the committee on agriculture. I hope and expect that in that committee, under the Minister of Trade and Commerce, we shall have a full, fair and ample discussion of all the matters referred to it. I am certain we will not be in the position we have been in that committee in the last few weeks, when discussions have been curtailed and much information withheld.
I noted that the minister said he did not think anything would be done in regard to overages or shortages. I am not an expert on the Canada Grain Act or the provisions dealing with shortages and overages; but as I read the act it would seem to me that the overages in eastern elevators shall become the property of Her Majesty. If that section is not followed, or if it is not going to be followed, then I suggest it should be removed from the act. So long as it remains in the act I suggest it should be respected in every way.
I agree that the car order book should be returned at the earliest possible date. The obtaining of the car order book by western farmers was one of their great early achievements in their endeavour to have fair trading practices in connection with the selling of their grain. I believe one of the reasons there was so much objection to the cancellation of the car order book system was the importance farmers attach to that achievement.
I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if you would call it six o'clock.


Mr. Sinnott:: It is three minutes to six; go ahead.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Perhaps with the unanimous consent of the house the hon. member would wish to continue, if he has only a few more observations to make.


Hazen Robert Argue: No, I am not asking for unanimous consent. I am asking that you call it six o'clock.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. J. W. Welbourn (Jasper-Edson) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 225, to incorporate the Hotel Mutual Insurance Company.


Mr. Green:: Would the sponsor explain the bill?
Private Bills


John William Welbourn: The purpose of the bill is the incorporation of the Hotel Mutual Insurance Company by a group of Albertans, namely Douglas Earl George, bank manager, of Edson, Alberta; and Eugene Pechet, hotel proprietor and Russell Driscoll, barrister, both of the city of Edmonton. These three men are the provisional directors. After the formation of the company a board of directors will be elected consisting of not less than nine and not more than twenty-one members. The capital stock of the proposed company will be $3 million of which $250,000 shall have been subscribed before the general meeting is called. Business may be commenced only after $500,000 of the capital stock has been subscribed and $300,000 paid thereon.
Section 6 of the bill sets out twenty-six classes of insurance for which the company may make contracts. Section 7, however, lists the types of contracts in which the insurance company is immediately interested. The company will operate under the general rules and provisions of the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932. As the name of the company would indicate, its main purpose is to insure hotels. However, it is to be both a mutual and a stockholders' company. The policyholders as well as the shareholders will participate in the profits. Persons who buy a policy of not less than $5,000 will be entitled to attend the annuel meeting and vote for the election of directors.
This bill has had first and second readings in the Senate, has passed the Senate committee, has been given third, reading in the Senate, and is now referred to this house. The bill has the complete approval of the superintendent of insurance. It is my hope that after second reading the bill will be referred to the House of Commons standing committee on banking and commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Friday, May 16, consideration in committee of Bill No. 62, to incorporate Boundary Pipeline Corporation- Mr. Larson-Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
On section 1-Incorporation.
Mr. Blackmore:: On the night of May 16 when this bill was last before the house I had considered it advisable in the interests of all concerned to say something as regards the stability of the oil industry in Alberta so that all those interested might be able to form some sort of estimate with respect to
2394	HOUSE OF
Boundary Pipeline Corporation whether the industry is a fly-by-night affair. I presented some evidence to show that the Alberta oil development is not a windfall but that it has taken place as the result of very careful, wise and prudent planning based upon fundamental principles which have been laid down as a consequence of the most thoroughgoing inquiry and study, and which have been adhered to religiously. They are principles to which the Social Credit administration now in power in Alberta is committed. It committed itself definitely in a statement by Hon. N. E. Tanner, minister of lands and mines at the time in the Social Credit government, who probably more than any other one man in Canada was responsible for the drafting and laying down of the policy and the administration thereof as a result of which the spectacular development of the oil industry in Alberta has taken place.
From a statement made by Mr. Tanner to the people of Alberta in 1948 I had read the five fundamental principles upon which the policy for the development and maintenance of the Alberta oil industry was established- and was to be maintained. I think it well to give a few more details along the same line I followed the other night.
Referring once more to the question whether the Alberta oil development was a windfall,
I might liken it to an irrigation district. After an irrigation project is thoroughly established and in operation it may be said that it was a windfall. It is true it was a windfall in so far as the fact that the water was there, the land was there and money was spent to develop the irrigation canals, distribution ditches and all the other things; but to say it was a windfall would give an altogether wrong impression as to the part played in the development of it by the men whose responsibility it was to bring about that development. Therefore I think we are safe in saying that the Alberta government earned the oil development just as thoroughly as the group of men in charge of the irrigation project earned that project by doing the work and spending the money involved in developing it.
I had begun to refer to the question of private enterprise. The Alberta people believe in private enterprise. Social Credit believes in private enterprise. Social Credit believes that public ownership of industry in a general way is a false principle and that it is not in the best interests of any economy. It is largely as a result of the attitude of the Alberta people and the Social Credit government in this respect that those with great sums of money to invest in the development of oil have been encouraged to come to Alberta, spend the great amount of money they have spent and remain there to proceed 


Mr. Laing:: How did this one man make $90 million.


John Horne Blackmore: I would imagine he would do that by ordinary dealings. There is a good deal of speculating possible, even under the arrangements made out there, but that does not mean the man who made that money-he might have bought speculation stock and sold it-had any control over the oil-producing lands of the province. They went on under these regulations just as rigidly as the sun

Boundary Pipeline Corporation rises according to the time of year. There is no deviation from the principle which I have laid down.


Arthur Laing: He is reported to have had property.


John Horne Blackmore: Just what those properties were, I do not know. He may have had freehold property. It must be borne in mind that a considerable amount of Alberta's oil-producing land was alienated from the province before the natural resources of the province were given to it in 1932. In former times, even before 1905, the federal government at Ottawa was in a position to alienate this land. Some of the land would1 naturally be in the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company, some in the hands of the Canadian Pacific and some in the hands of the C. and E. Corporation. Where oil was found on property belonging to any of these people possessing a prior right, it is not under the same regulations as are the lands which belong to the province. Is that clear?


Arthur Laing: Is an individual limited as to acreage?


John Horne Blackmore: That is an individual company that comes in to obtain crown lands within these regulations?


Mr. Stick:: Are the bon. members addressing the chair or carrying on a private conversation?


Mr. Wylie:: We did not hear a word you said.


John Horne Blackmore: This regulation, of course-


Louis-René Beaudoin: The conversation that is being carried on at the other end of the chamber must be very interesting. The members at this end and the chairman would like to hear it.


John Horne Blackmore: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I thought I was speaking loudly enough to enable everyone to hear everything I said, even though I was directing myself towards the person who was asking the questions. There were persons who were endeavouring to get accurate information about the situation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman; I shall be guided by your suggestion. I believe I have made it quite clear now how that man could have made money in spite of these regulations which apply to all crown lands. Of course the province of Alberta has only indirect control of lands which have been alienated to the Canadian Pacific, the Hudson's Bay Company and other concerns.


Arthur Laing: He made a little more money than the province.


John Horne Blackmore: That was not the fault of the province but the fault of the dominion

government that had alienated the property. It must be borne in mind that in the case of the two provinces, Alberta and Saskatchewan, a great amount of the natural resources were alienated even back as far as 1885, before the provinces were organized.
The next important matter in which I think nearly everyone is interested, and which I believe has a bearing on the general matter we are discussing tonight, is how much money has been made by the province as a result of these oil developments. Some people act as though they thought something like billions had fallen down in a cloudburst of financial returns, but no such thing is true. Those are only rainbow dreams. I give these figures, not only for the sake of those who desire to know about that, but to show the rate at which the oil industry has developed, thereby indicating the possible development for the future.
Alberta received in revenue from oil in 1948-49, $10,340,000. That was the first year after the amazing development took place following the discovery of the oil in the famous Leduc field. In 1949-50 she received $26,550,000; in 1950-51, $32,768,000; in 1951-52, to December 31, 1951, $20,262,000. Those figures will be found in Premier Manning's 1952 budget speech. This indicates that no such unbelievable streams of money flowed from the oil industry. The estimate for 195253 is $38,300,000, which will include $12 million from crown reserves and $10,300,000 from oil royalties, $12,500,000 from fees and oil lease rentals. For the facts pertinent to these statements we can refer to Premier Manning's 1952 budget speech, and those who want to read it can find it in the Lethbridge Herald of March 8, pages 1 and 19, which can be found in our reading room. These facts show that all those who attribute the whole of Alberta's financial success to the oil industry are just a little wide of the mark.
It is important to bear In mind, summing up in a general way, that thus far the Alberta Social Credit government did everything it could to help those who came to develop her oil industry, realizing the value of the companies who came in and not making it difficult for them. In the first place, the government learned all the known facts about the oil industry. Then it set up a source of information to be available to all comers, so that any company entering the field could go to the fountain of this information and get millions of dollars worth of valuable facts about the sort of thing that might be encountered, before it did a tap of prospecting or drilling. The very best experts were available at all times to give the finest advice that could be obtained.

This is one of the great things to the credit of the administration of Alberta in respect of the oil development.
I have already referred to the information that answers the question:	Is the Social
Credit government permitting the big oil companies to commit abuses? I have pointed out that "no" is the answer. No Alberta oil lands have been alienated from the crown. All development is purely on a lease basis. No monopolistic development is permitted. No special privileges are permitted. No injury to owners of the lands is permitted without compensation. It can readily be seen that if companies are allowed to go rambling all over the province drilling here, there and everywhere, spoiling men's farms, knocking down their crops and all that kind of thing without any remuneration to the property owners, in all probability the people of Alberta will become weary of that sort of thing and turn out a government that would permit it. The government is not permitting any such thing as that. People will be interested to know what the Alberta government does concerning the surface rights. I read again from Mr. Tanner's statement:
The government has set up a right of entry arbitration board to see that farmers get fair and generous treatment where oil wells are drilled on their farms. If the oil company and the farmer cannot make a satisfactory settlement it is referred to the board for settlement.
I might say there are no costly court cases in respect of this matter. The people concerned get around the table with the referee and stay there until they come to a friendly agreement.
The following are examples of rulings made in the Leduc area for each well and in many cases there are four wells on one quarter section.
First year's payment $1,592.50 $1,292.50 $2,000.00 Annual compensation 532.00	470.50	700.00


Mr. Cannon:: I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Might I suggest that the hon. member who is now speaking talk about the bill before the committee, which is a gas pipe-line bill and which has nothing to do with the oil policy of the Alberta government.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: It is the same thing.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, this bill not only asks for the right to pipe gas but also to pipe oil. I would suggest that the hon. member should read section 6.


Charles-Arthur Dumoulin Cannon: Even piping it has nothing to do with the policy of the government of Alberta.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Surely it does.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. Perhaps I might dispose of the point of order by informing the hon. member for Lethbridge that he has now spoken for more than forty minutes.
Boundary Pipeline Corporation


Mr. Hodgson:: Mr. Chairman, in taking part in this debate tonight, I want to assure you at the outset that I will not ask for the privilege of having my time extended beyond the forty-five minute limit.
I am opposed to this bill in the first place because the line stops at Winnipeg. The incorporation of this Boundary Pipeline company would mean that it would build a pipe line to Winnipeg. I am anxious that we receive this power in Ontario; we need it now in Ontario to develop the province. Industry here is short of power. Therefore we need this gas which belongs to Canada. We need it in the eastern section of Canada now.
In the first place, this small pipe line going to Winnipeg was intended to go to the boundary, but certain objections were taken in the committee and the applicants withdrew that part of it, and said: We will stop at Winnipeg. There is no doubt in my mind that this pipe line was meant to go to the boundary and then be taken over by some other company which would deliver gas to the different parts of the United States. I think it has been proven that throughout the years we have been the suppliers of natural resources for the large cities of the United States. That is probably one reason Sir Wilfrid Laurier's dream has not come true yet, when he said that the nineteenth century belonged to the United States but the twentieth century belongs to Canada.
If we are going to develop Canada, we must have cheap power and we have to develop our natural resources here at home. This is one potential source of power we must make use of. We can make use of it to the great benefit of this nation. I do not see the United States shipping to us over here anything they require first at home. That is probably one reason they have developed so much faster than we have over the past seventy-five years. They are a great nation and a developing neighbour. But I should like to tell this committee that the greatest asset they have is not the Atlantic ocean, the Pacific ocean or Mexico but rather this northern boundary alongside of which lies Canada which is supplying them with gold, iron ore, pulp-wood, timber, lumber and nickel which is necessary in any kind of a war, machine or defence program.


Mr. Gibson:: They are the best customers we have, too.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Yes, they have been good customers of ours; but this is not a oneway street. I think we should protect Canada and Canadian interests first. Do not

Boundary Pipeline Corporation forget that our large cities along the border will need this gas and this power in order to compete with the large cities that lie along the border in the United States. Are we going to go on developing those large cities of the United States, or are we going to make possible more employment and more industry in Canada?
The pipe line is to be a small one, to start with. I think it has been proven in committee-it was to me, anyway-that the potential market for what power will be used from the oil fields to Winnipeg will not warrant, financially, a pipe line of any kind, but it might have the effect of stopping the Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Company, which was granted a charter last year, from coming on through Ontario, Quebec and the eastern provinces, because it will absorb the market provided by all the towns and cities from the oil wells to Winnipeg. Therefore the pipe line for which we have already granted a charter, to be built right across Canada and which I think is most necessary, might not have enough market to warrant its construction for some 1,200 or 1,300 miles before it would get one customer. The first customers would be in northern Ontario, and would be such large cities as Fort William and Port Arthur.


An hon. Member:: There would be a
monopoly.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Talking about monopoly, we
talked out this same pipe line last year and your city of Vancouver was one that benefited by our talk last year.


Mr. MacDougall:: I didn't make any remark.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The pipe line we talked out last year would have gone down through the United States, and Vancouver would not have had any oil for the next twenty years.


An hon. Member:: It still would not.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: However, it is not that pipe line we are talking about. It is the one going through Ontario I am interested in. The Boundary pipe line is out so far as I am concerned. It is only a detriment to a bigger and better line going across Canada and one that I think should be built as quickly as possible. They have spent a great deal of money and have done a great many things toward getting ready to build that line. We do not want to pass this bill in respect of which it has been proven that the market wili not warrant building it, financially.


An hon. Member:: Where?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: In the committee; or it should have been. It will probably be the

means of blocking a bigger and better line. If you take away the nearest market, then the other line has to build across that 1,200 miles before it reaches its first customer, as I said before. There are great cities in northern Ontario. The hon. member for Fort William speaks about Fort William every time he has the opportunity to do so in this chamber. He has also spoken about this line and has mentioned the fact that he is extremely anxious that oil or gas go to Fort William. It has also been proven that the potential market in Port Arthur and Fort William will not warrant the building of a pipe line. Therefore those cities in northern Ontario must have a line that goes on through to the larger cities of Ontario, Quebec and eastern Canada, to make it a sound proposition.
In northern Ontario we have such cities as Fort William, Port Arthur, Sault Ste. Marie, North Bay, and the towns and cities along the line to Toronto. Then west from Toronto we have London, Hamilton, Sarnia, and to the east we have Brockville, Kingston, Ottawa, and then on to Montreal and Quebec. It was explained to us many times in the committee that you cannot pipe gas in the same way you string telephone and electric wires. The gas that goes into a pipe has to be pumped, and it must go to towns and cities where there is a large population to use it in volume. It will never go into individual houses throughout the country; it must go to towns and cities.
We need gas in Ontario to develop hydroelectric power. We are short of electric power in Ontario. We need cheap fuel in order to generate electricity to be used in the rural districts of Ontario and Quebec. Do not forget that when you turn on a light in a home in the country you not only turn on a light in the kitchen or living room of the house, but in the heart of the housewife.
I can tell you why we are short of power in Ontario, and why we need this gas. In Ontario we have had a great hydro development going on for the last eight years. Power lines, dams and power projects have been built as fast as the Hydro Electric Power Commission could get steel, wire, cement, machinery and things to do it with. It has been a wonderful development. However, it has not caught up with the shortage of power, and it has not coped with the speed of industrial development throughout the province. I do not mind telling the committee why there is a shortage of power in Ontario. In 1934 a Liberal government came into power in this province. One of the things the premier, Mr. Hepburn, who was elected at that time, fought the election on was the building of .power

lines. He said the building of power lines and power dams was a waste of money, and that Ontario had enough power to do it for a hundred years. But he was very shortsighted because before 1940 we had caught up with all the power we had developed and needed more.
In 1943 the government of the day began a program of hydro development, and it is still developing as fast as it can. The hydro commission built some steam plants to try to cope with the situation. In Ontario today the Hydro Electric Power Commission has steam plants using from 900 to 1,000 tons of coal a day. If anybody tells me that we do not need gas for cheap power in Ontario I will tell them that they do not know what they are talking about. They certainly do not know anything about eastern Canada.
That coal is coming in from the United States. Just think of the amount of foreign exchange that could be saved in Ontario if instead of buying that coal we could buy Alberta gas. The money we saved in that respect could be passed around among Canadians. The same thing applies to Quebec, which is rapidly becoming short of power. Perhaps one of the reasons is that they had a Liberal government down there too long.


John Lambert Gibson: You have a good point there.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: We are not going to get gas in Ontario with any help from some of these hon. gentlemen around me; we are going to get it with the help of friends of Canada from one coast to the other. We cannot divide Canada into provinces; we cannot divide one section from another. We do not want to divide our people; we want to stand together as one nation. The things that are good for the east are good for the west, and if gas is good for the west it is good for the east. So far as I personally am concerned, I would rather be using gas from Alberta in Ontario than buying coal from the United States, even if it cost the same. There is no doubt about that. Any engineer will tell you that gas will be cheaper than coal in Ontario. It will mean cheaper power; so when we are talking about exporting our products we have to get the cheapest power we can in order to be able to compete with the nations of the world. We have to take care of our trade and our industry, and this is one way to do it. The way is to process our own natural resources in Canada with our own natural resources. The gas in Alberta was discovered more or less suddenly. There is no doubt in my mind that the government in Alberta has given great encouragement to the development of gas and oil wells. Therefore we have a natural resource in Canada that is the best that could
Boundary Pipeline Corporation be obtained anywhere. If we had anything in Ontario that was needed in Alberta I would be the first one to give it to them, and just as cheaply as possible. Someone has said that it is a poor hand that will not wash the other. Let us get on with this job; let us get the trans-Canada pipe line built from one end of Canada to the other. I feel sure that the development of gas and oil in Alberta is such that it warrants marketing in the east.


Mr. Decore:: Mr. Chairman, I did not intend to participate in this debate tonight, but in view of some of the remarks that have been made by the hon. member for Lethbridge, I feel compelled to make some reply in connection with the oil development in Alberta.
The hon. member for Lethbridge has stated, or he tried to impress upon this committee, or even to convince it, that it is erroneous to state, or even to suggest, that the Alberta Social Credit government has sold out the oil industry to big interests and foreign corporations. Let us examine the situation. My submission-and I challenge the hon. member for Lethbridge to disprove this-is that since the discovery of the Leduc field at least 75 per cent of the proven oil reserves in that province-and it may be as high as 90 per cent-are not in the hands of Albertans, not in the hands of Canadians, but in the hands of foreign corporations. As I say, I challenge the hon. member to disprove that.


Mr. Johnston:: What corporations are they?


John Decore: United States corporations.


Charles Edward Johnston: Name them.


John Decore: There are many of them; I am not going into details now. So much so, Mr. Chairman, that if the United States army had invaded the province of Alberta and in the field of battle we had been decisively beaten, and if there had been a treaty, as there usually is after all battles, then I submit we would not have been given a worse deal than the deal we are getting now from the Social Credit government with regard to the oil industry in that province.


John Horne Blackmore: I want the hon. member to tell us what he means by being "in the hands of". What do you mean by being "in the hands of"?


John Decore: When the hon. member is suggesting that the Alberta Social Credit government are the champions of private business, my submission is that they are not the champions of private business but that they are the champions of big business, so far as the oil industry is concerned in Alberta. I must also say this, that the farmers in that province have made repeated demands from time to time urging that the farmers who
2400	HOUSE OF
Boundary Pipeline Corporation have no mineral rights be given some consideration. Up to now that government has turned a deaf ear to the representations made by these farmers, through their organizations.
We have heard all kinds of wild statements in the house and in other places, for instance statements such as those made by the hon. member for Macleod, that the oil was underneath the ground, that the Lord waited until such time as a good Christian government came into power, and then that oil was developed. That is what is being said throughout Canada, and particularly in British Columbia today, as well as in Saskatchewan. Sometimes we hear it in this house.


Mr. Nickle:: Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest to the hon. member for Vegre-ville. I was glad to see a member of the Liberal party taking part in this debate. I am sorry, however, that thus far only two Liberals have taken part in it, and neither of them has devoted his remarks to anything relating to the Boundary Pipeline bill. Neither of those Liberal members has spoken a word about the very basic effect of a national gas policy for Canada.
In the few minutes left before nine o'clock I should like to say something about what would seem to be confusion with respect to Liberal policy on natural gas and oil, and I shall refer specifically to the Liberal party in Alberta, private Liberal members in this House of Commons, and to the Liberal government of Canada.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. I hope the hon. member will confine his remarks to the bill.


Carl Olof Nickle: I shall be dealing specifically with the bill in relation to government policy. Before going any further, however, let me say a few words in connection with statements made by two members of the Social Credit party who come from my own province of Alberta. I would refer first of all to what was said by the hon. member for Bow River.
I regret deeply that in his statement in the house last week he made some observations in relation to oil and gas in Alberta and the developments going on in that province which indicated an attitude of provincialism. In other words he took the view that western members may stand together, and that they owe nothing to the east.


Charles Edward Johnston: I did not say that.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Carl Olof Nickle: In that connection, let me quote from memory what the hon. member for Bow River did say. He said, first of all, that British Columbia should have the first right


to Alberta gas, and then would come the province of Saskatchewan, and then Manitoba and then, eventually, perhaps eastern Canada.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is better.


Carl Olof Nickle: Of course that statement must be taken in relation to present political activities in the west. The Social Credit party is naturally anxious-and again I am quoting what has been said by a Social Credit speaker-to unite the west under the banner of social credit.


Charles Edward Johnston: It has pretty nearly accomplished that now.


Stanley Howard Knowles: More gas.


Carl Olof Nickle: Let me say only this, that the natural resources of all parts of this country are, in my opinion, resources belonging to the entire country, and should be put to use for the maximum good of the whole country. And to get back to the hon. member for Vegreville, he made the statement that 75 per cent of the oil of Alberta is under foreign control.


Solon Earl Low: He said 90 per cent.


Carl Olof Nickle: The only thing I need say about that is, thank God that a great many foreign oil corporations or individuals were willing to join Alberta, and other Canadian risk capital, to get out and explore and discover those resources in my own home province.
And may I add that, unlike the hon. member for Lethbridge, I do not give credit to the Social Credit government for all that has happened in Alberta by way of oil and gas development. I think the great bulk of the credit must go to those Canadians and those foreigners who have been willing to risk their money in the development and exploration of my home province, as well as other parts of Canada.
Now, as to this business of confusion of Liberal policy on natural gas: First of all, of course we have the Alberta Liberal party which has taken a most unfortunate stand for that province and for Canada-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Carl Olof Nickle: -a stand in complete opposition to any export to any other province, or anywhere else, of natural gas from Alberta.


An hon. Member:: Let us hear about the Tories.


Carl Olof Nickle: Now, as to the Progressive Conservative private members in this house: the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra and the hon. member for Lambton West have made statements in the house as to proceedings before the committee on railways, canals

and telegraph lines. It is obvious, upon reading the minutes of those committee meetings, that either the Liberal members on the committee were confused with respect to natural gas and pipe lines, or they had no policy to start with.
As was previously mentioned by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, two members of the Liberal party in this chamber, who come from Quebec, moved the resolution which barred any further cross-examination of witnesses for the oil pipe line company. I regret that that took place because those two members, in effect, have given their considered view, apparently, that the province of Quebec should not get natural gas from western Canada.


Some hon. Members:: Nine o'clock.


Louis-René Beaudoin: It is nine o'clock. Shall I report progress and ask leave to sit again?
Section stands.
Progress reported.


Mr. Speaker:: It being nine o'clock, the house will revert to the business at hand before six o'clock.



CANADA GRAIN ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Howe that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Canada Grain Act to provide for the reappointment of grain commissioners and for increases in their salaries: to provide also for the appointment and salaries of three assistant grain commissioners instead of four; and to provide further for certain technical amendments of the statutory grades of grain.
Hazen Robert Argue: Mr. Speaker, at six o'clock I had expressed the hope that the car order book system would be reinstated at an early date, and I trust that conditions might be such this year that there will be no question in anyone's mind but that the car order book system should be maintained. Another aspect of box car distribution in western Canada that I should like to mention is this. The experience I have seen from one elevator marketing point to another is that the elevator houses themselves are filled up early in the crop year, perhaps a few days or a week after harvesting becomes general. Then when railway companies bring in box cars to the elevator points they are usually divided on an equal basis amongst the elevator companies doing business at a particular elevator
Canada Crain Act
point. On the surface such a distribution of box cars may appear fair, but I believe that at the vast majority of marketing points most farmers would like to market their grain through their own co-operative elevator system. Therefore I suggest that to allocate box cars on the basis of the same or nearly the same number of cars per elevator company is not fair. I should like to see the wishes of the producers surveyed-and I believe their wishes could be ascertained before the season commences-to find out at any given marketing point the percentage of producers who wish to deliver their grain to each elevator company provided space is available.
I would say if three-quarters of the producers at a given elevator marketing point indicate that they would like to deliver their grain to their own co-operative elevator, then the co-operative elevator, that is the wheat pool at that particular local point, should get three-quarters of the cars spotted available for that point. As long as cars are spotted on the basis of dividing them approximately equally between all the elevator companies the farmers' wishes to deliver their grain to their own elevator company will not be met.
Because it is at the printers, I have not seen the last annual report of the board of grain commissioners. I pointed out on one occasion previously during this session, and I should like to point out again to the minister, that the Canada Grain Act requires that in the month of January the minister shall receive a report from the board of grain commissioners. The minister indicated earlier that the report had not been received by him some months after the beginning of the year and the report has not yet been printed. I am not attempting to blame anyone for the fact that it is not printed and is not available, but I would hope that in future the minister will receive the report on time and that members of parliament may receive it shortly thereafter.
I should also like to suggest that in the report of the board of grain commissioners there should be more detailed information on overages and shortages. The question of overages and shortages is very much in the minds of western producers. The three prairie farmers' unions have taken great interest in the subject, and I believe have written to all western members of parliament asking that certain information be obtained. I think it would be more satisfactory if that information were placed in the report of the board of grain commissioners each year.

Canada Grain Act
The minister mentioned the figures for overages and shortages in the elevators operating in the prairie provinces. On May 12 a return was tabled in answer to a question of mine as to the reduction in quantities of wheat, oats, barley and flax resulting from drying operations. As a result of drying, I would say from quick calculation that the reduction was some one and a quarter million bushels. A part of the answer to my question reads as follows:
No reduction or loss in weight occurs in the natural drying process whereby tough and/or damp grades are dried by mixing with grain of straight grade.
That was one of the pieces of information the farmers' unions wished to secure. I also asked if the books of the elevator companies for their terminal operations reflected a change in inventories at the end of the year and this is the answer I received:
Elevator book stocks are adjusted tor any drying loss through the cancellation of warehouse receipts covering the quantities of tough and damp grain to be dried, and by the registration of new warehouse receipts for the amount of the dried grain in accordance with the board's regulation No. 15, section 6 (g).
If at all possible I believe that kind of information should be placed in the annual report. I do not know whether or not it is in that report, since it has not been printed and distributed, but I believe that is the kind of information the prairie producers would like to obtain.
There is one other matter I should like to raise at this time, the question of introducing a protein factor into the grading system for wheat. As the minister knows, over the years farmers, particularly in the drier sections of western Canada, have advocated the grading of wheat on a protein basis. I have noticed that the chief chemist of the board of grain commissioners, Dr. J. A. Anderson, has given a good deal of thought and study to this problem. Reports have appeared in the press from time to time with respect to papers he has delivered to meetings of various farm organizations. I think he has done a service to western Canada by the study he has made of a protein grading system. It is his opinion that a protein factor introduced into the grading of wheat would be advantageous to western wheat producers in that it would likely result in a greater economic return for wheat.
He outlines the way such a protein factor could be introduced into a grading system for wheat. He goes on to explain that there is no quick method of ascertaining the amount of protein in any given sample of wheat, and because there is no quick way of obtaining the protein content it is difficult to grade

wheat on a protein basis when the wheat must be moved quickly to marketing positions. Dr. Anderson goes on to point out that a study is being made of possible methods to quickly determine the protein content of wheat. I hope that the minister, the national research council and other government departments have been working with Dr. Anderson and giving him every assistance possible so that a mechanical device to rapidly determine the protein content of wheat may finally be invented. From Dr. Anderson's comments apparently that is the only major hurdle that needs to be overcome to place the grading of wheat on a protein factor basis.
As I have said, he points out that such a protein grading system would increase the economic return to western producers, would probably be more satisfactory for most milling companies in Canada, and should result in Canadian wheat obtaining a somewhat better price on the world's markets. For this reason I hope Dr. Anderson will be given every encouragement and assistance in his very valuable work.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, resolution considered in committee, reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Howe thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 246, to amend the Canada Grain Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 194, to amend the Aeronautics Act.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide for airport zoning. I will now endeavour to deal at some length with the principles embodied in this measure.
Airport zoning consists of the promulgation of comprehensive zoning regulations dividing the area surrounding an airport into zones, specifying the uses of the land permitted in these zones, and regulating and restricting the height of structures and trees. The parliament of Canada having exclusive jurisdiction over air navigation and airports, it appears that enabling legislation of this parliament is required in order to deal with this pressing problem.
The bill to amend the Aeronautics Act may be considered under two heads. The first deals with the authority for making zoning regulations and the second with the procedure to be followed and the payment of

compensation in respect of property injuriously affected by the application of the regulations.
The layman is apt to think that an airport consists solely of its material features, its runways, taxiways, loading areas, lighting equipment, buildings and other facilities. But all of these would be of little practical value if the airport did not have adequate aerial approaches. Aircraft ascend and descend at a very gradual rate. A clear slope must be allowed for in approaching the field and in departing from it. Moreover, the clearance must not be such that the planes will just scrape over the tops of obstacles. The margin allowed should be such that normal landings and take-offs may be made with the planes always some distance above the tops of buildings, power lines, trees and other obstacles.
It must be evident that the effective size of an airport is determined as much by its surroundings as by its own ground area. The erection of buildings and other structures in the vicinity of an airport which are an obstruction to aircraft using the airport would threaten and perhaps destroy the utility of the airport and the large investment of public funds it might represent. But this is by no means the only or most serious consequence of such obstruction of an airport approaches. Of even greater concern is the fact that an approach obstruction endangers the lives and property of flyers and their passengers as well as those of occupants of land in the vicinity. Obstructed approaches are the cause of many aeroplane crashes and a contributing factor in a great number of others.
The problem presented by this necessity for clear aircraft approaches is not only one of removing, lowering, marking and lighting existing airport hazards but one of preventing the establishment or creation of additional hazards. Unless ways are found and steps taken to limit to the extent necessary the height of future buildings, transmission lines, other structures, and objects of natural growth located on property in the vicinity of an airport, it may be expected that many such structures and objects will be erected or allowed to grow to heights making them obstructions or hazards to aircraft using the airport.
Air transportation in the past few years has increased at a phenomenal rate and the future promises further expansion. Since this expansion is bound to bring with it rapid industrial or residential development of areas near airports, it will become increasingly more difficult to deal with the problem of preventing obstruction of airport approaches if the present situation is allowed to continue. The
Aeronautics Act
more airport obstructions that are permitted, the more difficult and expensive will be the task of eliminating the existing obstructions and preventing the establishment of others.
The international civil aviation organization has studied this problem and has recommended certain practices in respect of airport zoning to which Canada has subscribed and which the government proposes to follow so far as the circumstances in each case will permit. The requirements vary somewhat according to the use to which an airport is to be put and the type of aircraft that will be using it under a variety of conditions. On the major civil airports certain runways may be designated for use on instrument landing approach. The requirements in respect of these particular runways are naturally more exacting than in the case of those that are limited to the use of visual flight rules. On certain military airports the characteristics of the aircraft using them are such that severe limitations in the matter of airport zoning are necessary.
There are several methods by which airport approaches may be protected against obstructions. One is for the owner of the airport to obtain title to the property in the vicinity of the airport upon which obstructions might be erected. Any hazards already in existence could then be removed or lowered and the land retained or sold subject to restrictions limiting the height of buildings and other objects that might be constructed thereon. In the case of federal airports resort may be had to expropriation if the land owners are unwilling to sell. However, the expense involved is the principal drawback to this method of zoning as the acreage required would be many times that necessary for the airport proper.
At this point I should like to repeat what I said then when speaking on the resolution. It is not the intention of the bill to provide for the removal of existing obstructions. This will be taken care of by the normal procedures of acquiring lands or easements by purchase or expropriation. The zoning regulations contemplated by this legislation would apply to prevent the future erection of buildings or other structures which might become obstructions to aircraft.
The method of zoning by regulations as provided for in this bill is the most satisfactory solution to the problem in that it may be applied to all airports whether government, municipal or privately owned. It is the least expensive method, but at the same tSne provides for adequate compensation to property holders whose lands are injuriously affected. It avoids separate dealings with a

Aeronautics Act
multitude of property holders. Few steps are of such urgency and few steps are so essential to promote safety.
Generally, the nature of the proposed zoning regulations will follow a plan which will be somewhat as follows. From the centre of an airport a circle may be described having a radius of thirteen thousand feet. Within this circle no structure will be permitted to have an elevation above 150 feet.
In addition to this restriction, the approach flightways which commence at the end of the runways and extend outward from the bound-iary of the airport will be restricted to structures not exceeding one foot in height for every fifty feet that these structures are located from the boundary.
There will also be restrictions on the lateral slopes on each side of the flightways extending outward and upward at a ratio of one foot in height for every seven feet of horizontal distance. This is rather technical but I think it conveys the general idea of what restrictions may be expected. As each airport has different characteristics, the zoning regulations will be adapted to the plan of the individual airport.
There may also be odd cases where the use of land adjacent to an airport may have to be restricted. For instance, it would be dangerous to have machines in the vicinity of an airport which give off smoke or fumes hazardous to aircraft.
It is proposed to take immediate action, if this measure becomes law, in respect of certain airports operated by the departments of Transport and National Defence. Over a period of years it will be necessary to give this protection to all government airports. At the present time there are 114 of these, not including military airports. In due time it will also be necessary to deal with the zoning of municipal airports where the problems will have to be discussed with the municipalities concerned. There are now 17 airports on the transcontinental airways system operated by the Department of Transport which require immediate protection.
I turn now to the second part of the bill. Provision is made for adequate publication of the zoning regulations which in the case of civil airports will be made by the Minister of Transport and approved by the governor in council. The plan and description of the lands affected by a zoning regulation will be signed and deposited in the land registry office in the same way as is now the practice under the Expropriation Act. A copy of the regulation will be published in the Canada Gazette and in two successive issues of at least two newspapers serving the area where
[Mr. Chevrler.l
the airport is located. This should give sufficient publicity to the regulations.
As I have stated, the bill provides for payment of compensation in cases where property is injuriously affected by the operation of the zoning regulations. The yardstick for measuring compensation will be the amount by which the property is decreased in value by the enactment of the regulations, less the amount by which the property has increased in value after the claimant became the owner, and is attributable to the airport. This is a well known and accepted principle of compensation, and is to be found in the Exchequer Court Act where the court is directed to take into account any advantage or benefit that accrues or is likely to accrue from the construction or operation of a public work.
I have already indicated my view that in the long run owners of property in the vicinity of an airport will benefit from the orderly development of the area under a zoning plan. I recognize, however, that cases will arise where a property owner may be prevented from proceeding with plans for the development of property which will have to be altered or abandoned. In these cases claims will be dealt with by negotiation and fair settlements made. If the parties are unable to agree, the claimant has recourse to the exchequer court which will settle the compensation.
The bill provides for a time limit for making claims of one year from the date of deposit made in the land registry office. It is not proposed to pay out public moneys to claimants unless they come forward within a reasonable time to make their claims.
In the preparation of this legislation considerable study was given to action taken by the United Kingdom and the United States to meet this problem. In both these countries provision has been made by legislation for zoning airports. The physical details concerning the limitations to be imposed are based on international recommendations.
I consider this bill to be a forward step in the field of aviation. It should be enacted as a necessary protection for those who travel by air and those who dwell near airports. The development of the aviation industry in Canada is proceeding rapidly and deserves the support of all members of this house.


Howard Charles Green: When the resolution preceding this bill was under debate some days ago, Mr. Speaker, I understood that the minister had agreed to have the bill considered by the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


Lionel Chevrier: If I may interrupt the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, I perhaps should have indicated, following my statement, that after

Aeronautics Act
this debate I do propose to move that the bill be referred to the committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


Howard Charles Green: In view of that fact there is very little I wish to say this evening on behalf of the official opposition. We shall reserve our judgment on the bill until it has been considered by that committee. Generally speaking we are in favour of any reasonable safety measures being taken. There is no doubt that safety must be the main consideration in dealing with the questions raised by this bill. But I suggest to the minister that it would be worth while if, before the regulations are deposited covering an airport, he have his officials confer with the municipality or municipalities concerned. As he has said, conditions will be different for different airports. For example, one set of problems may arise at the Uplands airport in Ottawa while an entirely different set may obtain at Dorval, Malton or Stevenson field in Winnipeg, or at Sea Island where we have the Vancouver airport.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is on the other side of the Marpole bridge?


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps the minister might even do something about the Marpole bridge.


Lionel Chevrier: Surely not under this bill.


Howard Charles Green: The government has failed to do much under any other measure, so perhaps this is oUr last hope.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It may be a hazard to air traffic.


Lionel Chevrier: It must be a lift bridge, then.


Howard Charles Green: I do suggest that an attempt be made to reach an agreement with the municipalities concerned with regard to the zoning regulations which are to apply to these different airports. Here we have a clear infringement of property and civil rights, although possibly there is power to take this step under the "Aeronautics" decision. It would avoid a good deal of trouble, and help greatly in the administration of the act, if some attempt were made to get the co-operation of the municipalities.
Then we are of the opinion that the compensation provisions set out in the bill are not fair to the people who will be affected by these zoning regulations. There will be many people across the country who have property near an airport. I believe the minister mentioned a distance of nearly three miles from an airport for one type of regulation, so there will be many people holding property in the vicinity of these airports who will be affected by the zoning regulation. We believe they should be given a reasonable opportunity to get proper compensation. It would be far
wiser to leave it to the discretion of the judge to decide what reasonable compensation would be.
Instead of doing that we find a provision written right into the bill that the compensation shall be the amount, if any, by which the property was decreased in value by the enactment of the regulation but with the qualification that it shall be less the amount by which the property increased in value after the claimant became the owner. Now, that is a very indefinite provision, and may well have the effect of depriving many people of the compensation they should receive.


Lionel Chevrier: That is written into the Exchequer Court Act.


Howard Charles Green: We believe there should be a wider discretion left to the judge who will have to decide the case. After all, it is not an easy or cheap procedure for the claimant to go to the exchequer court to have his claim adjudicated upon, and we think no handicap should be placed in his way.
Then the other provision which seems to be much too drastic is the one which says that unless the owner takes action within one year from the time a zoning regulation is filed in the land registry office, he has no claim whatever.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. It seems to me the hon. member is discussing the details of the bill at this time; that, of course, is something that is not permitted on second reading.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, these very details have just been discussed by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) and I submit that I am entitled to answer.


Mr. Speaker:: I do not think that, on second reading, a detail such as the time for filing a claim can be discussed. That is definitely a detail which must be considered in committee. If the hon. member wants to refer to it I will not stop him from doing so; but I hope that he will not discuss it at length.


Howard Charles Green: Your Honour, there are only two features to this bill. One is the power to make regulations and the other is a provision that the person who is injured by the regulations can claim compensation. I am dealing with this second subject at the moment. Surely I must be permitted to bring out the fact that the bill does not give the owner a reasonable time in which to make his claim for compensation. That is all I am trying to do.


Mr. Speaker:: I said that I would allow the hon. member to refer to the matter, but I hope he will not go into it in too much detail.

Aeronautics Act


Howard Charles Green: It all depends on what Your Honour considers to be too much detail.


Mr. Speaker:: I am sure the hon. member understands the rules, and I am sure that he will abide by them.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, we suggest that claimants should be given a longer time than one year. The plan set out in the bill is that the Department of Transport files this copy of these regulations in the land registry office and then inserts two advertisements, I think it is, in a local newspaper. The owner may not learn about that for many months. He may be away. There are a dozen different possibilities which would prevent him from taking action within a year. There is the very fact that the minister has said it is the intention to negotiate with these owners before they have to take action. I have been involved in some negotiations with the Department of Transport at different times, and certainly in my experience they have never broken any speed records.


Lionel Chevrier: My recollection is that they have dealt very fairly with you.


Howard Charles Green: That is true; but it takes a long time for them to make a decision. It may be months before the poor claimant can find out what the department is going to offer him. Just to sum up, we believe that a longer period should be provided within which the claimant may take action. We think it is only fair that there should be a longer period.
Then there is one other point. When the resolution was under discussion I asked the minister whether or not the municipalities would be required to pay any of this compensation. I have here the exchange of questions and answers, which is to be found at page 1972 of Hansard. It is as follows:


Howard Charles Green: Is there to be some responsibility on
the municipality for the payment of compensation?


Lionel Chevrier: I would think so.


Howard Charles Green: The government is not paying all the compensation?


Lionel Chevrier: I hesitate to answer that at this
time. I think that is really a matter which should be considered when the bill is before us.
An indication was given by the minister that the municipalities would have to pay some of this compensation. I suppose it would be in a case where the airport is owned by a municipality; but there is nothing whatever in the bill to indicate that there is to be any contribution made by the municipality. I would ask the minister, when he closes the debate, to indicate whether or not the municipalities are to be expected to contribute something toward the compensation paid. It does not seem to be reasonable that they should have to do that. If they have purchased and developed the airports, I doubt

whether it is fair that they should have to pay compensation because of the effect of government regulations. However that may be, we ask the minister to make that poin* clear when he closes the debate.
As I said in opening, we reserve our judgment on the bill until there has been an opportunity to hear the departmental witnesses in committee and to give consideration there to the different terms.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I wish to take just a few minutes to confirm the support of this measure which we indicated at the time the resolution was before the house. As I said on that occasion, all of us are extremely proud of the safety record we have in this country in the field of aviation; and any measure that is designed to protect that safety record, and indeed to improve that position in the-years that lie ahead, is commendable.
We feel that it is well to take measures of this kind in advance rather than to wait until the areas surrounding airports have been completely built up. In fact I could not help but wonder the other day, when the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) was speaking on the resolution, why there had been such a long lapse of time from the days when similar regulations under the War Measures Act went out of existence.
I listened with interest to the explanation the minister gave tonight. As he spoke it became clear that what looked like a simple bill-it has just one section-in fact contains a good deal. The meat of the bill, of course, is in the power that is conferred for the making of regulations to zone areas surrounding airports. In that connection we appreciate the fact that the minister tonight indicated in some detail the nature of these regulations, and they seemed to be based on common sense. I noted his reference to the fact that these regulations are in line with the commitments we have made as a member of the international civil aviation organization.
With regard to the question of compensation, on which the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) has had something to say, we shall await with interest what the minister says in closing this debate on second reading. Likewise we look forward to an opportunity to have that aspect of the matter discussed a little more fully in the committee. However, looking at the bill as it stands, I confess that I am not unduly concerned. It seems to me to suggest that compensation is available so long as a party can establish the fact that there has been a net loss in the value of his property as a result of the operation of these zoning regulations. I trust that we shall be given the assurance that a person

who has any disagreement, shall we say, with the government over what the actual loss is, will have the usual recourse to the courts. So long as that right is guaranteed there is something to be said for wording the bill rather carefully and cautiously, as it seems to me has been done.
I do not wish to make any final commitment on the compensation aspect of the bill, but I do feel I should say that the terms of it do not worry me in quite the way they seem to worry the hon. member for Van-couver-Quadra (Mr. Green). Nevertheless we shall wait further information on that aspect of it. But certainly with regard to the first part of the bill, the part that deals with zoning for the purposes of safety, on that score the bill has our wholehearted support.


Solon Earl Low: I should like to say a word in connection with the bill. I listened to the minister's explanation with interest, and I must say we favour the type of measure which is included in the bill for improving the safety of air travel in connection with the location of buildings, structures and so on in our airports. I feel, as my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) does, that anything we do to increase the length of time during which we continue to have an enviable record here in Canada is justified.
I think the first provisions of the bill are perfectly justified. However, there are some things in connection with it on which we may wish to gather more detail, and for that reason I am glad the bill is being sent to the standing committee.
My only concern about a bill of this kind is always in connection with the compensation clauses. I cannot discuss them in detail here, but it is not clear to me just what sort of set-up is envisioned to enable a claimant to get compensation that is due him. I simply hope that in committee we shall be able to get the details of that set-up, and before the minister closes the debate it may be possible to get them here. All I am saying is this: I hope it is not made too difficult for a claimant to get justice. Too often when compensation clauses of this kind are included in bills we expect the claimant to go before the exchequer court, or some other court, which is often a long drawn out and costly procedure, and all too often I am afraid that the claimant does not get just treatment.
I should like to have the minister explain, if he can without breaking the rules, just a little more in detail what he has in mind in respect to the compensation as provided
Aeronautics Act
for in clause 8. If he prefers not to, we can get that in committee. That is my only concern in any of these bills. We commend the minister for bringing in the measure at this time and getting in on the ground floor before a good many airports are approved, extended or established. That is the time to have your regulations set up. Then you do not have too many claims for compensation. I would just like to register my one concern before the bill goes to committee.


Gordon Graydon: Before the minister closes the debate I want to say a word in connection with the legislation which is now before us for second reading. In my constituency is the Malton airport, which is one of the largest if not the largest, and certainly the most important, of any of the airports in Canada. I want to make some observations with respect to the effect or probable effect of these zoning regulations on the area surrounding that airport.
When the legislation was first brought into the house last year a considerable amount of public interest was displayed in it in the area which I just mentioned. The question at that time of course resolved itself into two parts. One was the question of the jurisdiction of the federal government with respect to the property and civil rights which are normally enjoyed by provincial jurisdictions in matters of this kind.
My understanding is that some questions were raised in connection with this jurisdiction in other areas of Canada, but it was not pursued so far as the Malton district went. I take it that the minister is now satisfied with respect to the rights of the dominion to legislate in connection with this type of restriction. However, at that particular time I had a conference at the request of adjoining owners and those who had neighbouring properties near the airport in the Malton area. The whole matter was discussed very fully and in a very friendly way at that time, as to the possible effects of these zoning regulations. I think it only fair to the minister and to the house to say that there was no disposition on the part of anyone who attended that conference, despite their individual interests being so important, to suggest that there should not be something in the nature of regulations with respect to the safety of those who were travelling by air and the safety of those also who might be affected in the event of accident in the immediate vicinity.
I suppose since that time public consciousness has been aroused, and certainly has became more manifest, by virtue of the series of very unfortunate plane crashes

Aeronautics Act
in thickly settled areas of papulation in and around the city of New York. That I think has to some extent, in any event, made it advisable for the government to see that every possible means is taken by the department and by others to see that this kind of disaster shall not be experienced in any major way by our own aircraft and our own system here in Canada. It is always a matter of pride to the Canadian people at large that we have so far escaped any major catastrophe so far as air travel on Trans-Canada Air Lines is concerned. The best possible advertisement for an air line is to say that they transport their passengers in safety. Perhaps that is the best advertisement our Trans-Canada Air Lines can make, and they have been continuing to make that assertion with an almost unbroken record since the line was first instituted, I think in 1936, if my memory is not faulty.
However, to return to the question of zoning which of course is connected very directly with the question of safety, I think it can be said that in some of the areas such as Malton there has been a rather close relationship in the past between the Department of Transport and those who are responsible for the planning of the area under the Ontario planning act. I believe there has been fairly close liaison1 between those two bodies, and in the meantime that may have made the situation somewhat less difficult in connection with the acceptance of reasonable regulations at this time.
During the last couple of weeks I took the trouble to communicate with municipal and other representative people in the area so as to gain some idea of their views with respect to the regulations the minister has in mind. No grave objections have been raised, so far as the general principle is concerned; but when the matter is before the committee, if they find it necessary or advisable they might like to have the opportunity of coming to Ottawa to give their evidence, or to make their suggestions, as the case may be.


Lionel Chevrier: By all means.


Gordon Graydon: I am glad to have the
minister's assurance on that point; because if there are difficulties remaining to be solved I think we ought to have the suggestions and advice of those who are directly affected.
Let me point out that at our conference a year ago the chief apprehension seemed to centre around the matter of compensation. I must say there is still some apprehension on that score. It is all very well for the minister to say that fair settlements will be made. I have no doubt that is in the forefront of his mind at the moment. Nevertheless the fact that some have had to enter

into costly arbitrations and court actions to enforce their rights has constituted a type of discrimination against those who, in many instances, cannot afford to have prolonged lawsuits and negotiations, with all their attendant expense, when they are faced with a suit against the government.
I look with some concern upon the minister's suggestion that a judge of the exchequer court would be bound by two restrictions which the minister seems intent upon including in the regulations. The first one, to which reference was made by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green), was the time limit placed upon the filing of claims. I would be the first 1o admit, with the minister, that there ought not to be a wide-open field for the making of claims, years and years afterwards, and that there should be some finality and some area of restriction in the matter of time as to the date upon which a claim might be filed. Nevertheless I would not like to have included in the regulations an iron-clad restriction or limitation as a result of which, no matter what the circumstances might be, and regardless of the position in which people might find themselves, a judge would not have the right at least to take into consideration equitable factors which might obtain in a particular case.
I think there ought to be some way of meeting a situation with which both the government and those who may have claims might be faced. I am optimistic in my view that a position midway can be found whereby owners would not be given carte blanche rights to claim against the government all through the years, but at the same time the government would not leave itself in a position where it would be completely and perfectly protected the minute one year had expired.
The minister is a distinguished member of the bar and I should think he would be the first to admit that, in all these instances, there is the odd case where a great deal of injustice might result from the too stringent application of a time limit. I think there ought to be something in the regulations which would give a judge of the exchequer court some latitude when dealing with a case where extreme hardship is shown as the result of the one year limitation.
Then I should like to deal with a matter raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green), and which I wish to emphasize. I refer to the question as to how compensation is to be arrived at or adjusted. I cannot see why a court should be put in a position where it is in a strait-jacket when it comes to the manner in which it can arrive

at proper compensation. In the first place the minister indicates that the regulations will call for compensation as a result of damages flowing from the zoning regulations in the vicinity of an airport. At the same time, while he gives with one hand he takes away with the other. He indicates that consideration must be given also to the fact that, while in the hands of the owner, the properties may have increased in value by virtue of the location of the airport.
I take objection to the stand taken by the minister, and hope when the committee sits he will not be adamant in the position he has taken in this regard. I have a feeling that this restrictive portion of his regulations, which he proposes to enforce through the exchequer court, might easily have the effect of rendering an injustice to many land owners whom, normally, the court would wish to help.
I would suggest to the minister, who has given a great deal of study to this matter and who has not pressed the legislation too hastily-and I must give him full marks for that, because there has been a considerable lapse of time to give those who are interested an opportunity to come forward and make their suggestions-that these are two points to which he might give special attention. When he comes before the committee I hope he will not appear as an adamant defender of the regulations he now proposes. I would hope that he would be amenable to suggestions and would see, in the name of sweet reason and justice, just how important these two suggestions are, coming as they do from people representing those who may make claims in the future.
Like the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, who has spoken officially on behalf of the official opposition, I would hope that in having this matter placed before the committee these two changes might be made, in the interests of those who may be dealing with the government as a result of zoning regulations in the days ahead.


Mr. T. H. Goode (Burnaby-Richmond):: Mr. Speaker, if I may take a minute, the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) has spoken for about thirty minutes on behalf of a very small airport near Toronto. I should like to say something about the Vancouver international airport which is a much larger operation. I think the minister is quite conversant with some of our problems on the coast. Two members of the Richmond council came to Ottawa a couple of weeks ago and had a meeting with the parliamentary assistant to the minister. May I pay tribute to him for his understanding with respect to our problems on the west coast. There
55704-152J
Aeronautics Act
are some homes close to the Vancouver airport which constitute a great problem. I think the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) will agree with me that there are six or eight properties close to the new airstrip that should be taken care of by the Department of Transport immediately. They should not wait for the institution of the regulations under this legislation. I have stood in one or two of these homes when large airplanes have flown over the immediate vicinity and I have noticed that dishes on the shelves and other cooking implements have suffered by reason of the large engines used in these planes.
More particularly, some of the young people owning these homes have small children. In some cases they are V.L.A. properties. I do not think anyone in the house will mind my speaking about these people because I think the matter comes under the bill. For instance, I stood in the attic of one house one night where a man and his wife and a couple of little children live. I certainly would not want to live there. I hope the minister will not wait until the bill is on the statute books, because help is needed now. The minister and his parliamentary assistant understand this matter, and I hope we will not have to wait for the bill to become the law of the country. Let us do something about these young people who are living near the Vancouver civic airport.


Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: Mr. Speaker, may I add a brief word largely along the line of the speeches made tonight by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) and the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon).
Every member of the house of course supports the principle of ensuring as far as possible safety around our airports, particularly in the light of the recent disasters in the neighbourhood of Newark. However, attention has been drawn very properly to the features of the bill which pertain to compensation for those whose use of their property is going to be detrimentally affected by the regulations which will be made in pursuance of the powers conferred by this legislation.
In my submission the language of the bill with reference to the basis of compensation is unduly narrow. Account should be taken of the fact that power is given by the bill to limit or restrict not simply the height and location of buildings but their use. If the use of buildings is interfered with it may give rise to a form of damage which cannot be measured in terms of the reduction in the value of the land. It must be measured

Aeronautics Act
also in many cases in terms of loss of business profit or the prospect of business profit. I am sure the minister is well acquainted with the problem that arises in compensation cases where in one class of case the [DOT]claimant is limited to the reduction in the value of his land and in other cases is permitted to make a claim as well for loss of business profit.
It seems to me this is a situation where the widest basis of claim should be permitted, and where anyone who happens to suffer a business loss, quite apart from reduction in the value of his land, in consequence of zoning carried on in pursuance of the powers conferred by the bill, should be entitled to compensation for that type of loss as well as for the reduction in the value of his property.
My second observation relates to the period of limitation of claims. There are not a few statutes, both federal and provincial, where a similar period of limitation is imposed upon claims. In this case it is one year. I think if you will examine most of these other cases you will find that the date from which the period of limitation runs is a date clearly defined and by its nature bound to be known at once to the person who is about to make the claim. That is not the type of situation we have under the bill. The year begins to run not from the date of some physical injury sustained by the claimant, some incident that impresses upon his mind at once that he may have a claim, but, if you please, the period of limitation runs from the date of deposit of the regulation. The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra points out that it is not even from the date of the advertisement.
The deposit of the regulation is something that may not come to the attention of a person who has property in the vicinity of the airport for months and months afterwards. It is not something that impresses itself upon his mind. It is not something that comes directly to his notice. Therefore the circumstances contemplated here are not at all to be compared with the circumstances upon which periods of limitation fixed by certain provincial and dominion statutes are based. Accordingly I would urge that these provisions, both in defining the scope of compensation, which is unduly narrow, and the period of limitation, which is unduly short, should be reviewed and revised when the bill goes to the committee. Otherwise I predict now that hardship is going to be suffered by many people. It may be that the government is animated in this situation by the best of intent, but what would happen is what has happened in other situations where cases of hardships arise

and are put before the department. The minister will feel he is bound to take this stand: "This is what the legislation says, and I cannot make exceptions. It is true that hardship results, but I am powerless to deal with it unless I am going to open the door to a great many claims for compassionate consideration."
A period of one year, Mr. Speaker, is very short. It is altogether too short in normal cases unless the nature of the claim is such that it impresses itself forcibly upon the mind of the person in whose favour the claim arises. That is not the situation here. Therefore I would urge not only that some better definition be written into the act of the time from which the period of limitation is to run but also that the period of limitation be extended. I am sure I am not alone in this house in having had professional experience of the way in which these altogether too short periods of limitation in our statutes very often work to the detriment of people who have otherwise legitimate claims. It cannot be said that these unduly short periods of limitation are necessary to protect the public interest. Very often it is simply a case of cutting off claims on an arbitrary basis so that government departments will not have to be bothered by the possibility of claims hanging over the department for a period of time beyond a year or so.
It seems to me that what we should have uppermost in our minds is the desire to do justice to people who are sustaining damage as a result of steps taken in pursuance of statutory authority by the government in the general public interest. It seems to me that the language in which the bill is drawn in that respect at the present time is bound to create hardship in many cases. I offer these suggestions in the hope that the minister will give them serious consideration, and that when the bill goes to the committee it may be revised accordingly.


Mr. G. M. Murray (Cariboo):: Mr. Speaker, may I commend the minister for this bill. These problems would seem to arise in the southern part of Canada and do not apply to that part of British Columbia which I have the honour to represent. So far as my riding is concerned, the heaviest air traffic north and south is from Vancouver north through Cariboo and Whitehorse to Fairbanks. This is a good piece of legislation. It will eliminate the difficulties which other hon. members seem to think will have to be cleared up.
The large airports in our part of the country are not located near municipalities as the airports at Toronto and elsewhere are. Naturally there will be developments near these airports and this bill will prevent the creation

of obstacles to aircraft. Therefore it is good legislation and the minister is farsighted in bringing it forward. I am sure he has in mind the northwest staging route for which he and his department are responsible. The main airports on that route are Prince George, Quesnel, Fort St. John, Fort Nelson, and other points.


John Lambert Gibson: Mr. Speaker, there are just one or two comments I should like to make. It would seem that this bill applies only to land airports because the words used are "on lands adjacent to." I am thinking of an incident which arose this week in my riding having to do with the mooring of ships adjacent to a marine landing and I am wondering if that would be covered.


Lionel Chevrier: It is wide enough to cover sea bases.


John Lambert Gibson: There might be other floating objects to consider.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, in order to cover all the points that have been raised this evening by hon. members I suppose I would have to infringe the rule you laid down, but I think the house will want me to deal generally with some of the objections that have been raised. In doing so I shall try to keep in mind the ruling of His Honour the Speaker.
This is a simple bill. While the zoning regulations may be somewhat complicated I am afraid there is some misapprehension about the application of the restrictions. I should like to deal with that because it is dependent upon the matter of compensation which follows. There seems to be an idea in the minds of hon. members that this legislation is going to affect far more people than in fact it will. It is intended by this bill to create three zoning areas or restrictive areas surrounding airports. The first is that within a radius of 13,000 feet from the centre of an airport no building shall rise to a height of more than 150 feet. My information is that at airports such as Malton and Dorval no building exists that would be in contravention of that zoning regulation.
The second zoning restriction is that in the approaches at the end of the runways having a width of 1,200 feet at the runway end, by a depth of 10,000 feet, and a width of 4,000 feet at the outer end, no building shall rise more than one foot for every 50 feet out. In the third area on the lateral slopes of the flightways no building shall rise more than one foot for every 7 feet out.
I am not able to say how these restrictions will affect different airports such as Vancouver, Malton, Dorval and the like, but it is my understanding that the results of this
Aeronautics Act
legislation will not be nearly as serious as seems to be the thought of some hon. members.
The hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming), when dealing with compensation a while ago, said that adequate or fair compensation should be paid for the use of the property.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Not paid for the use, paid for the interference with or the restriction upon the use.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not going to enter into an argument with my hon. friend but he did use the word "use". He may not have intended to use it. The point I want to make is that these regulations do not interfere, broadly speaking, with the use. They are easements in connection with the area at the end of runways and on the side. In other words, they are in effect avigation rights, as they are called in the United States.


Gordon Graydon: How do these compare with the United States?


Lionel Chevrier: I am going to come to that at a later stage in my remarks.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask the minister if he has considered the opening words of section 1 (1) (j) which gives the power to make regulations and where the words "use and location of buildings, structures and objects" are used?


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Perhaps I should say at this point that we should not deal with the bill section by section on second reading.


Lionel Chevrier: That confirms my impression of my hon. friend having used the word "use". I do not want to get into an argument with him about what he said or did not say. I am simply trying to be helpful. If there are any buildings that must be taken down they will be taken down in the ordinary manner. They will be expropriated under the ordinary rules of expropriation and compensation and will be paid in the ordinary manner. There should not be any difficulty as to that and I presume that is why the word is used in the section to which I have no right to refer.
The three zoning areas that will be established will, as I tried to indicate a while ago, create what are known as easements over property or avigation rights. It is proposed to compensate to the extent mentioned in the bill for those rights. My hon. friend has said that the time limit is not long enough and that the compensation provisions are not fair. We gave this matter careful consideration and we think they are fair having regard to the law elsewhere.

Aeronautics Act
This is a departure from ordinary practice. We are entering into a new field. There is no provision for compensation under the law of the United States. I understand that the federal government there has no zoning regulations; it is the states which pass legislation authorizing the municipalities so to do. Airports are zoned there in the same manner as municipal buildings are zoned and no compensation is paid. I am informed that the practice is somewhat different in the United Kingdom and that in certain cases compensation is paid in accordance with the statute which defines the method of compensation. Our officers have studied the methods of procedure in those two countries, and have come to the conclusion that this would be as fair a method of dealing with the situation as can be found.


Gordon Graydon: You did not enlarge on the United Kingdom regulations.


Lionel Chevrier: I could; but I should like to go on and deal with some other points that were raised.
It has been suggested that this is a clear infringement of property and civil rights. If there were no Aeronautics case, if there were no Johannsen versus the rural municipality of St. Paul case, it would be. In view of those two decisions, it is not. According to those decisions the federal government, under the sections of the British North America Act mentioned particularly in the latter decision, has the right to zone airdromes.
The member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) asked whether the municipalities will be required to pay compensation. I should like to answer that question in this fashion. We propose to proceed with the zoning of a number of federal airports almost immediately, that is the main transcontinental airports that perhaps require zoning more than others. This might well include a number of municipal airports. In the case of the Calgary, Fredericton and Saint John airports, no question will arise at all because I do not think- I say this subject to correction-anyone will suffer because of the three zones to which I referred earlier. I am not able to speak with the same authority in so far as Edmonton is concerned. At that point another problem arises because the airport is used partly by civilian aircraft and partly by military aircraft.
In that case it would be unfair, I think, to ask the municipality to pay compensation when the traffic is in part military. But on the other hand it is expected that the municipality will pay a portion of the contribution. How much will it amount to? In some cases

it may amount to absolutely nothing. In other cases it may be a very small amount. In any event it will be impossible to determine the amount until such time as the regulations have been made for each and every airport separately. In order to answer my hon. friends I must qualify any definite yes or no in that fashion.


Howard Charles Green: May I ask the minister a question. If it is the intention that the municipality should pay a portion of the compensation, why is there no provision in the bill covering that payment?


Lionel Chevrier: We do not think that is necessary, any more than it is necessary-


Howard Charles Green: To clarify my question may I say that the right is given to sue the crown for compensation. There is no such thing as suing the municipality, and yet in some way or other the municipality is to be dragged into this picture to pay part of the compensation. What puzzles me is why there is no provision in the bill to make that possible?


Lionel Chevrier: There is no provision in the bill for two reasons. First, because in some cases the municipal airport lies outside of the boundary of the municipality. Certainly that is the case in one municipality I have in mind now, and it probably is the case at Vancouver although I am not sure.


Howard Charles Green: Yes, it is.


Lionel Chevrier: That is one difficulty that lies in the way. Another difficulty is that I believe it is not an ideal way of drafting legislation to spell out all the eventualities that may arise.
The hon. member asks whether we shall confer with municipalities. Yes, of course; it is the intention to do that just as soon as a regulation covering an individual municipal airport has been drafted. We hope and believe that it will be possible to negotiate not only with the municipalities but with most of the property owners without the necessity of going into court.
There seems to be a great deal of objection to the time limit of one year. Again I am afraid I am infringing the order of the Speaker, but in order to answer that I shall have to deal to some extent with the bill. I shall try to avoid it if I can. If the bill is read carefully it will be seen that the one year does not begin to run until such time as the plan is deposited in the registry office. The plan is not deposited until, first of all, the regulations have been made covering the individual airport, and next those regulations have been published in the Canada Gazette and in two newspapers serving the area.
For instance, in the case of Malton, the property owners have been dealing with these

questions for some months, in fact some years. They have gone ahead on their own, and I commend them for it. Unquestionably those people will immediately be notified of what is happening by the discussion in parliament, by the notice in the press, by the deposit of the plan in the registry office, and so I do not think they will suffer because of the time limit of one year. Surely there has to be a limit to the time within which a property owner can make his claim for compensation.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister explain how people are going to know that the regulations have been deposited against their titles? The mere deposit of the regulation does not bring it to the attention of the property owners.


Lionel Chevrier: No, but the notice in the press, the notice in the Canada Gazette, the discussion in the house, the fact that the bill came up here over a year ago and has been held ever since then, surely is some indication that the government intends to deal with zoning. Furthermore, the pressure that has been exercised by municipalities and various other public bodies upon the Department of Transport and the government to zone airports is, in itself, some indication of that intention.
I believe I have covered the ground as adequately as I can, Mr. Speaker. The bill will be referred to the committee where there can be a more minute and detailed discussion. I am sure the discussion which has taken place in this house will be of great benefit to the members of the committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


Hon. Alphonse Fournier (for the Minister of National Defence) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 224, respecting the Canadian forces.


Mr. G. R. Pearkes (Nanaimo):: I do not know whether the parliamentary assistant to the minister intends to make a statement on this bill. Might I suggest that when we go into committee, since the bill deals with amendments to four separate acts, an explanation be given for each of these sections as we come to them. For instance, the first section deals with the National Defence Act. When we start with the paragraphs dealing with that section, perhaps the parliamentary assistant would make a statement. Then the next part deals with the Civil Service Superannuation Act, the third with the Defence Services Pension Act and the fourth with the Senate
Canadian Forces Act
and House of Commons Act. Rather than have a general statement now, perhaps it would simplify things if we had in committee a statement on each of those sections.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Louis-René Beaudoin: In order to meet the wish of the hon. member for Nanaimo, may I ask if he wishes me to call each section as a whole?


George Randolph Pearkes: I think you would have to call each section, Mr. Chairman.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Oh, yes.


George Randolph Pearkes: But when we come to section 2, for instance-


Louis-René Beaudoin: I mean by subheadings. For instance, since the parliamentary assistant will make a statement on the amendment having to do with the National Defence Act, does the hon. member wish to have all clauses of the bill under that subheading considered at the same time?


Stanley Howard Knowles: There is only one clause under that heading.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Yes, there is only one; and there is only one having to do with the Civil Service Superannuation Act, only one having to do with the Defence Services Pension Act and only one having to do with the Senate and House of Commons Act. Then, shall clause 1 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2, subsection 1-Definition of "service estate".
Mr. Campney:: If I may make a suggestion, I should like to do so. As the section to which we are now addressing ourselves contains I think seventeen subsections, and they deal with a number of different matters in relation to the National Defence Act, it might be more helpful if we took each subsection by itself and dealt with it on its own.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Is it agreed that we should follow that procedure?


Stanley Howard Knowles: There are 18 subsections.


Ralph Osborne Campney: Yes, there are 18.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Is that suggestion agreed to?


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes, I think that is agreeable. Would the parliamentary assistant like to make a general statement now covering these amendments or is he going to explain each subsection?


Ralph Osborne Campney: I think the minister on the resolution, on two separate occasions-on May

Canadian Forces Act
7 and 13-covered the scope and purport of the bill. It might be more expeditious therefore if I dealt briefly with each subsection as it is called.
Subsection 1 of section 2 is a minor amendment. The National Defence Act defines "service estate" and sets the procedure as to how service estates shall be handled. It has been found in practice that there are occasionally portions of a serviceman's or a servicewoman's estate which it is not convenient to deal with under the administrative provisions of this act such as trust benefits or something of that nature, which are in the hands of other administrators. The purpose of this subsection is to permit the governor in council to exempt from the present definition of "service estate" any specific item in any instance in which it is deemed in the interests of the estate that this should be done.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On subsection 2.
Ralph Osborne Campney: I should like to suggest that subsections 2 and 3 stand until we come to subsection 17 because it also deals with the Geneva conventions which I think can be more appropriately explained at that time. May we allow those two subsections to stand for the moment?
Subsections 2 and 3 stand.
On subsection 4.


Ralph Osborne Campney: The purport of subsection 4 is to eliminate from the National Defence Act reference to the summary of evidence. The new regulations under the National Defence Act do not provide for a summary of evidence as experience shows that summaries of evidence tend to lead to error and sometimes may even prejudice an accused. This is due to the fact that summaries of evidence are prepared in many cases by persons without legal training. The amendment in subsection 4 of section 2 brings the National Defence Act in line with the regulations in that respect.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On subsection 5.
Ralph Osborne Campney: Subsection 5 does two things. Some years ago a system of progressive increases in rates of pay was established. A new punishment known as "forfeiture of service toward progressive increase in pay" was provided for in the National Defence Act. Regulations governing the administration of this punishment proved to be impracticable and consequently, when the Queen's regulations under the National Defence Act were promulgated, it was decided that the 
punishment should be abandoned. That is the first point covered by this subsection. The second is that in the descending scale of punishments set out in subsection 1 of section 121 of the National Defence Act, "severe reprimand" and "reprimand" are placed below punishment by fine. Experience has demonstrated that a fine in fact should be treated as a lower punishment than either a reprimand or a severe reprimand and it has therefore been decided to have its position in the scale changed accordingly. It is felt that about the most minor punishment that a commanding officer can give to a soldier for an offence is a fine of $5 or $10, and that a fine ought to be treated as less serious than a reprimand or a severe reprimand.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On subsection 6.
Ralph Osborne Campney: Subsection 6 is a consequential amendment dealing with the same matter.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On subsection 7.
Ralph Osborne Campney: Mr. Chairman, subsection 7 in conjunction with subsections 8 and 9 is inserted in the act for the purpose of extending, under certain restrictions, the categories of officers in the three services who can approve of punishments. Under the present regulations such an officer must be of the rank of commodore in the navy, brigadier in the army or air commodore in the air force. It has been found that, especially in view of the growing numbers of persons now in the services, quite occasionally a man of suitable rank is not quickly available to deal with and approve of punishments. It is sought by this subsection to make it possible to create an approving authority in the navy of a rank not below that of captain, in the army, colonel, or in the air force a group captain, in each case to be designated by the minister. The amendment is proposed in the interests of facilitating approval of punishment.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On subsections 8, 9 and 10.
Ralph Osborne Campney: Subsection 10 merely
increases the authority of the commanding officer to delegate his powers to officers under his command within the limits set out in the subsection.


[Stage Direction]
Subsections agreed to.
On subsection 11.
Ralph Osborne Campney: This is a consequential
amendment dealing with the same subject I

have previously referred to and which changed the order of punishment in regard to reprimand and fine.


Mr. Sinclair:: I should like to ask a question on subsection 10. Does this mean that a junior officer, for example a flight commander, can now give up to fourteen days' detention on the delegation of powers by a commanding officer?


Ralph Osborne Campney: The provision to which this subsection is an amendment itself qualifies that by saying that the commanding officer may, again subject to regulations made by the governor in council and to such extent as the commanding officer deems fit, delegate his powers.


James Sinclair: It may be possible for a junior officer to sentence a man of that rank to fourteen days.


Ralph Osborne Campney: If he was so authorized by his commanding officer.


Tom Goode: I should like to know if the parliamentary assistant can clarify this. I should like to know how far a commanding officer can go in delegating his authority. I have known a lot of second lieutenants in the army who should not have that authority. How far can a commanding officer go down the line before it stops?


Ralph Osborne Campney: The power of delegation is limited; the most serious punishment which can be given by a delegated officer is detention not exceeding fourteen days, and lesser punishments, namely severe reprimand, reprimand and fine not exceeding basic pay for fifteen days and what are termed minor punishments.
Subsection 11 has already been dealt with by me. It is the same point, the relative position of fines, reprimands and severe reprimands.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
On subsection 12.
Tom Goode: I am still not satisfied. I had quite a little to do about this, and I am quite sure the hon. member for Coast-Capilano had also, and that is why he asked the question. How far can this go? I would like an answer from the parliamentary assistant. If he cannot give it now perhaps he will let me know in a couple of days how far the commanding officer can go down the line before he reaches the point where he cannot delegate the authority to a junior officer. I would not want to think that this house was going to pass an amendment under which a second lieutenant, or a lieutenant in a junior command, could give a man fourteen days. I would like to have that information.
Canadian Forces Act


Ralph Osborne Campney: It is my understanding that the commanding officer, subject to approval, can give punishments up to 90 days detention, but under this subsection as it is now proposed he cannot delegate the giving of punishment by a junior officer beyond 14 days detention, and the lesser punishments to which I have already referred.


James Sinclair: Does the accused still have the right to ask for a court martial in this case? If there is a summary trial before the commanding officer or a junior officer where he is going to be sentenced to detention, has he the right to ask for a court martial?


Ralph Osborne Campney: As I understand it under the new code of service discipline, a private has no right under the circumstances mentioned by the hon. member for Coast-Capilano to ask for a court martial, but a non-commissioned officer would, as detention automatically involves reduction in rank.


James Sinclair: My recollection of the last war is that in a case where the commanding officer was going to pass punishment which affected the man's pocketbook, as a detention does, he asked the man this question: Are you going to accept my punishment? The hon. member for Nanaimo will confirm me in that, I am sure. Then, with respect to the point raised by the hon. member for Burnaby-Rich-mond and myself, in the case of a man being sentenced to 14 days, has he not the right to ask for a full court martial as he had before? Then there is the other point raised by the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond, to how junior an officer can these powers be delegated to put a man away for 14 days?


Tom Goode: Before this subsection passes I should like an undertaking that we will get some information on it. I am surprised that the hon. member for Nanaimo has not raised some question on this because no one in the house has more experience in these matters than he has. I have taken men up in front of junior officers for punishment, and I would not want to see this power delegated to those ranks by any amendment. Before this amendment goes through I should like to have a full understanding from the department that this authority is not to be delegated to junior officers.


Ralph Osborne Campney: The regulations provide that the authority may not be delegated to officers below the rank of captain in the army and an equivalent rank in the other services.


Tom Goode: I would take it that this amendment has to do with captains handling these matters, and that is quite satisfactory.


Mr. Mulch:: Would that delegation of power apply in the case of a detachment commander of lower rank than a captain?
2416

Canadian Forces Act


Ralph Osborne Campney: I am informed that under the Queen's regulations the detachment commander has the same power as the C.O., subject to the C.O. in his case having approved of his having that power.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: So that in such a case the detachment commander can be and very often is an officer junior in the army to a captain or a similar rank?


Ralph Osborne Campney: It could be in that case, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
Subsections 13 to 16 inclusive agreed to.
On subsection 17.
George Randolph Pearkes: We would like to get an
explanation, because this is the most important subsection of these whole amendments.


Ralph Osborne Campney: In August of 1949 the
Geneva conventions were entered into. I think they were instituted under the leadership of the Red Cross and resulted from a conference held under the aegis of the Swiss government. They provided for, I think it may be said, the creation or the definition of a series of new crimes called grave breaches, such as torture, biological experiment, and generally a type of crime that I suppose arose in the second world war from the activities of the nazis and from the same type of crime perpetrated by the communists, and which have come to be quite widespread. These conventions provide that countries which subscribe to the conventions agree to enact legislation to enable them to bring persons guilty of such crimes before their courts. In other words the people who have charge of such persons are to be charged with the responsibility of bringing them to trial. Canada has not yet subscribed to the Geneva conventions; but in the event that such action is taken it will be necessary to have certain provisions in the National Defence Act to establish the authority of Canadian tribunals to try alleged offenders. In the opinion of the authorities in the departments of justice, of external affairs and of national defence, such trials, if held in Canada, should take place in the civil courts. The two subsections I had stand over, and this subsection 17, seek to provide the legislation which would make the sanctions of the Geneva conventions operative, if subscribed to by Canada.


George Randolph Pearkes: Is it not rather unusual to put on the statute books legislation in connection with an international treaty which, I understood the parliamentary assistant to say, had not been ratified by Canada?


Ralph Osborne Campney: The last section of the bill provides that those sections dealing with grave breaches under the Geneva conventions of 1949 will not be effective so far as Canada is concerned unless and until brought into effect by the governor in council. That, of course, would only be in the event that the Geneva conventions are ratified by Canada.


George Randolph Pearkes: Would these regulations apply to a person who was not a citizen of Canada, but was residing here? I am referring to a foreigner who is not one of our nationals, but who committed a crime in Canada? Would it also apply to a Canadian national, if the crime were committed outside Canada? In that event, would that Canadian national be tried by a Canadian court martial, or would he be tried by the court of the country in which the crime was committed?


Ralph Osborne Campney: If the foreigner were in Canada he would be tried here in Canada by the civil courts. But if a Canadian citizen were abroad, then under the terms of the Geneva convention he could be tried by the country by which he is held in custody if it, too, were a subscriber to the conventions. Or he could be handed back to Canada, or tried in any way the country in whose custody he was-that country being a signatory to this convention-should see fit.


George Randolph Pearkes: Well, may I have a clearer interpretation? Let us say there is a Canadian soldier in Korea or China at the present time who is accused of committing one of these crimes. I think the parliamentary assistant suggested something in connection with germ warfare, when he explained the nature of the crimes. Then do I understand we are agreeing that the Canadian soldier could be tried by a Chinese court, and punished while he is in China? Surely that is taking a very different attitude from that which is being taken now when the United States, or perhaps I should say the United Nations, object to the returning of prisoners of war who do not wish to be returned. This, it seems to me, is going in the very opposite direction. We are saying here that a Canadian who is charged with such a crime as this may be tried by an enemy court, or a court of a country which may at least be only a neutral.


Ralph Osborne Campney: My understanding is that if a citizen of one country that is a party to these conventions, whether he be a soldier or a civilian, were in another country which is also a party to the convention, he could be dealt with by the country in which he is located in regard to these grave breaches of the article of the treaty to which I have referred.


Howard Charles Green: That is, if China were a party to the convention-


Ralph Osborne Campney: Yes; both countries have to be parties to the convention, of course.


George Randolph Pearkes: Can the parliamentary assistant tell us which countries are signatories to the convention?


Ralph Osborne Campney: So far the following states have ratified: Chile, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, the Holy See, India, Italy, Yugoslavia, Lebanon, Monaco, Norway, Pakistan, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Jordania.


George Randolph Pearkes: I notice that neither the United States, the United Kingdom, France nor Canada have signed.


Ralph Osborne Campney: Canada has not ratified.


George Randolph Pearkes: Then I suggest that we are moving too quickly in this matter. A great deal more consideration should be given to it. I asked some questions at the resolution stage, as to whom this applied, and I think we should have some further detailed explanation before we agree to allowing our nationals to be tried in foreign courts for these grave breaches of the Geneva convention. Apparently none of the major nations of the world have agreed to a similar condition.


Alphonse Fournier: Have it stand.


Howard Charles Green: Eleven o'clock.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall this subsection stand?


George Randolph Pearkes: Yes.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Is it carried?


George Randolph Pearkes: No. 18-but not No. 17.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Then I understand that subsection 18 will carry, and 17 stand.
Subsection 17 stands.
Subsection 18 agreed to.
Business of the House
Section stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we will proceed with the following bills and resolutions: Bill No. 63, to amend the Prisons and Reformatories Act; Bill No. 196, to amend the Supreme Court Act; Bill No. 197, to amend the Interpretation Act; the resolution to approve the supplementary extradition convention; Bill No. 210, to provide for carrying into effect the treaty of peace between Canada and Japan; and the resolution to approve ratification of the convention respecting the crime of genocide.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask the minister whether it is understood that if second reading is given Bill No. 210, to provide for carrying into effect the treaty of peace between Canada and Japan, the bill will then be referred to the standing committee on external affairs?


Alphonse Fournier: That is what I think, although I have not consulted the interested minister. However, to date every proceeding that has come from his department has been sent to that fine committee on external affairs, and if he consults me I will advise him that it may be a good thing to refer it to that committee.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I understood there was an arrangement to that effect.


Alphonse Fournier: I am not the minister interested in that department but I will do my best to convince him that it should go to that committee.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
55704-153J
	
	
	
[Stage Direction]

Wednesday, May 21, 1952