1952-06-25

EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

[Stage Direction]
Sixth report of standing committee on external affairs.-Mr. Bradette.


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, when I tabled in mimeographed form, in both English and French, the report of the committee to study combines legislation, I referred to the fact that the French translation did not contain appendices setting out present and past legislation. I now table a French translation of these appendices.



GERM WARFARE


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Mr. Speaker, at previous sittings of the house two members of the opposition have raised the question as to what action was to be taken with regard to Dr. James G. Endicott. I should like now to make a brief statement on the subject.
The Department of Justice has examined two issues of a communist publication entitled "Peace Review" and Dr. James G. Endicott's speech at Winnipeg of June 18, 1952, in order to determine whether Dr. Endicott and the publishers of this pamphlet should be prosecuted.
There is little in this speech of June 18 or these pamphlets which was not already contained in a speech of Dr. Endicott at Maple Leaf Gardens on May 11 last.
Dr. Endicott, as is well known, is an ordained minister of the gospel and a Doctor of Divinity. He is obviously permitting himself to be used as a tool by which the propaganda of the atheistic communist party is spread throughout the world, and I do not think that very many Canadians will be taken in by his statements. According to the information available to the Department of Justice, the activities of such people as Dr. Endicott and the promoters of the Canadian peace congress have had very little effect on public opinion.
It is probable that the ringleaders of the communist conspiracy would like us to prosecute their dupes and tools such as Dr. Endicott and the publishers and distributors of these peace pamphlets. Prosecution would give them more publicity and might give them the appearance of martyrs. It would probably not embarrass the communists if Dr. Endicott were prosecuted and convicted. On the contrary, it is altogether likely that their interests would be served by a conviction. So far as Dr. Endicott himself is concerned, a prosecution and conviction could add little to the discredit he has already brought upon himself by allying himself with the forces of oppression, terror and atheism. It is felt that the advantages of conducting a prosecution against him would be more than offset by the disadvantages.
The freedom of speech which Dr. Endicott has been so consistently abusing is the freedom of speech which all Canadian citizens enjoy. The freedom of the press which the Canadian peace congress abuses is the freedom of the press which every newspaper in Canada uses from day to day to discuss public events and criticize or defend government policy. These freedoms are what we regard as the fundamental rights of every citizen and of the press in a free society under democratic government. They are indivisible. In our consideration of Dr. Endicott's obvious abuse of these freedoms, we must be careful not to do anything to injure or destroy the freedom of all Canadian citizens and of all Canadian newspapers.
For these and other reasons, following the example of other free countries like the United Kingdom and France, the government of Canada proposes to take no action at this time against Dr. Endicott for his public support of the communist party line in the allegations, such as the libellous and false assertion that the United States, operating as part of the United Nations forces in Korea, is waging germ warfare. '
Each of Dr. Endicott's statements and each act of publication and of distribution of these pamphlets is a separate episode in the operation of the tools of the communist party in Canada. The fact that the government does not think that it is upon balance wise to prosecute for these acts now does not mean, of course, that Dr. Endicott and the publishers are being absolved from responsibility for their acts. Each of these acts has been noted

Questions
and if the time should come when it seemed wise to prosecute, each of them will be taken into account.


Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, first I should like to preface my remarks by saying that there can be no disagreement with what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) has said with regard to freedom of speech, but is it not a fact that under the law as it now exists there would be no ground whatever for the prosecution of any person making statements such as Dr. Endicott has made, so long as they have to do with another country within the United Nations? In other words, there is no law at the present time that denies any person the right to say what he will in Canada about any other nation within the United Nations.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: If my hon. friend had listened to the statement which I have just read he would have heard in it no admission of the proposition which he has just put forward. The statement which I have just read does not purport to be in any sense a statement of law. It is a statement of policy. I am not to be taken for a moment as agreeing with what I understood my hon. friend to state as his understanding of what the law now is.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, may I just say at this point that I think that what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) has said is in the best traditions of democratic procedure. I want to congratulate him upon it. I think we all agree that what Dr. Endicott has done is detestable, but nonetheless I think it is well that, at this time when freedom of speech and freedom of the press is being destroyed in so many countries, we take the stand which the minister has taken.



QUESTIONS


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Have the firm of Margison, Babcock and Associates Limited, of Toronto, been retained by the Department of Defence Production and/or the defence department or any branch thereof in connection with the design and/or installation of defence projects?
2.	If so, what are their duties in connection with these projects?
3.	When was this firm incorporated?
4.	Who are the members of the firm?
5.	Who are the active officers of the firm?
6.	What qualifications and experience have these officers for the work in question?
7.	What was the first date on which negotiations for any of these contracts were first entered into with (a) this company or (b) any person who is now a member of this company, and what was the name of the person, if any, referred to in part (b) ?
8.	What was the first date on which any contract referred to in part 7 was awarded, to whom was it awarded, and what was the amount of the contract?

9.	What is the total value of the contracts which have been let to or taken over by this firm to date?
10.	What is the total of fees paid or payable to this firm for the work done to date?
11.	For how many of these projects have contracts been awarded to this firm?
12.	Are these contracts on a cost plus percentage fee basis? If so, what is the percentage fee?


Mr. Dickey:: 

ARMED FORCES


Mr. Dinsdale:: 1.	Have any marriages been solemnized between Canadian servicemen serving in Korea, and (a) Korean girls; (b) Japanese girls?
2.	If so, what arrangements have been made for bringing these war brides to Canada?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	(a) No. (b) Ten.
2.	These brides as dependents of Canadian servicemen are entitled to free passage to their destination in Canada in accordance with existing regulations. Wherever possible they will be accompanied by their husbands under arrangements made by the Canadian army.



CHATHAM AIRPORT


Mr. Brooks:: 1.	Did the Department of National Defence issue contracts for the extending and laying of runways at the Chatham airport, during the years 1950 and 1951?
2.	If so, was the contract on a cost plus basis, and what was the cost?
3.	Did the contract include the clearing and cutting of lumber and pulpwood on this area?
4.	If so, how much lumber and pulpwood was cut, and what credit did the government receive for the same?


Mr. Dickey:: 1.	Yes, through the Canadian Commercial Corporation.
2.	No. The contract was let at firm unit prices on the basis of estimated quantities. The expenditure authorized to date is $860,599.95.
3.	The contract provided for the clearing of 97 acres and the clearing and grubbing of 133 acres of land. This would involve the clearing and cutting of any lumber and pulpwood on the site.
4.	As the contract was placed as a result of competitive tender, the value of lumber and pulpwood cut was not isolated.



APPEALS TO PRIVY COUNCIL SINCE JANUARY, 1949

Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	How many cases have been appealed to the privy council since the first day of January, 1949?
2.	In how many of such cases were appeals (a) allowed; (b) dismissed?
3.	How many of such appeals have been taken at the instance of the government of Canada?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: 1,	2 and 3. Twenty-three petitions for leave to appeal from judgments of the Supreme Court of Canada have been presented to the privy council since the 1st of January, 1949. 11 were dismissed; 12 petitions were granted; out of these 12, 1 appeal was withdrawn, 7 were allowed and 4 were dismissed by the privy council.
Two petitions for leave to appeal were lodged by the government of Canada. One of these appeals was later discontinued and one was proceeded with to judgment.
No information is available as to appeals to the privy council direct from the provincial courts of appeal.
Questions



INCOME TAX APPEAL BOARD

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	How many cases of individuals have been dealt with by the Income tax appeal board, by years, since the board was established?
2.	In how many of the cases referred to in question No. 1 has the board ruled in favour of the individual, and in how many cases has it ruled against the individual?
3.	How many cases of corporations have been dealt with by the income tax appeal board, by years, since the board was established?
4.	In how many of the cases referred to in question No. 3 has the board ruled in favour of the corporation, and in how many cases has it ruled against the corporation?


Mr. McCann:: 1.	No. of cases of individuals dealt with, by years: 1949, 32; 1950, 167; 1951, 231. Up to and including May 31, 1952, 118; total 548.
2.	In favour of individual; 1949, 5; 1950, 40;
1951,	105. Up to and including May 31, 1952, 53; total, 203.
Against individual: 1949, 27; 1950, 127; 1951, 126. Up to and including May 31, 1952, 65; total, 345.
3.	No. of cases of corporations dealt with by years: 1949, 6; 1950, 91; 1951, 182. Up to and including May 31, 1952, 51; total 330.
4.	In favour of corporation: 1949, 1; 1950, 22; 1951, 75. Up to and including May 31,
1952,	26; total, 124.
Against corporation: 1949, 5; 1950, 69; 1951, 107. Up to and including May 31, 1952, 25; total, 206.



OPERATION OF RIDEAU CANAL

Mr. Thatcher:: 1.	How many men were employed by the federal government in operating the Rideau canal, as at June 1, 1952?
2.	Do these employees work during the winter months?
3.	What revenue, if any, was received from freight passing through the canal in the past fiscal year?
4.	What was the total cost to the taxpayers for operating the canal in the fiscal year?


Mr. Chevrier:: Questions
the employment of casuals and provides experienced men for various work, (c) Casuals -as required.
3.	No freight passes through the Rideau canal, but the total revenue from other sources was $17,464.66.
4.	The total cost of operating the Rideau canal during the fiscal year 1951-52 was as follows:
Operation and Maintenance ....	$383,838.96
Construction and improvements 27,635.20
Total	 $411,474.16



RETIREMENT AGE

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Has consideration been given to lowering the retirement age of the judges of the Supreme Court of Canada and the Exchequer Court of Canada?
2.	If so, what is the result of such consideration?
3.	Has consideration been given to the amending of the British North America Act so as to make it possible for parliament to fix a retiring age for judges of all courts that come under federal jurisdiction, including those of the superior courts in each of the provinces?
4.	If so, what is the result of such consideration?


Mr. Garson:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Yes.
4.	No conclusion has been reached.



TUBERCULOSIS GRANT-ASSISTANCE TO PROVINCE OF QUEBEC

Mr. Healy:: What financial assistance has the federal government given to the province of Quebec under the tuberculosis control grant for the purpose of purchasing X-ray equipment for the detection of tuberculosis?


Mr. Marlin:: Since the national health grants program went into effect in 1948, $450,000 has been spent by the federal government for the purchase of X-ray equipment for the province of Quebec, under the tuberculosis control grant.
This amount was spent for the purchase of X-ray equipment ranging from small units used in clinic and survey work to large apparatus installed in sanatoria and for X-ray accessories and film.



HEALTH GRANTS


Thomas Patrick Healy: Since the national health grants program started in 1948, what is the total of the financial assistance approved by the federal government for the province of Quebec under the program?


Murdo William Martin: 

{Mr. Chevrier.j



MENTAL HEALTH GRANTS


Mr. Eudes:: 1.	How many mental health clinics have been established in the province of Quebec from funds made available by the federal government under the mental health grant?
2.	What population do they serve?


Mr. Marlin:: 1.	34.
2.	Approximately 1,900,000.



HEALTH GRANTS-PERSONNEL IN PROVINCE OF QUEBEC

Mr. Eudes:: In addition to those persons who are receiving training under the professional training grant or other grants in the national health grants program, how many health personnel are employed by the province of Quebec under the program?


Murdo William Martin: 1,350, consisting of physicians, nurses, mental health personnel, laboratory personnel, sanitation personnel, and others.



OLD AGE ASSISTANCE AND PENSIONS TO THE BLIND


Mr. Gourd (Chapleau):: 1.	What was the number of recipients of assistance under the Old Age Assistance Act in the province of Quebec, as at May 31, 1952?
2.	What amount was paid by the federal government to the government of the province of Quebec on account of old age assistance for the month of May, 1952?
3.	What amount was paid by the federal government to the government of the province of Quebec on account of old age assistance from January 1, to May 31, 1952?
4.	What was the number of recipients of allowances under the Blind Persons Act in the province of Quebec, as at May 31, 1952?
5.	What amount was paid by the federal government to the government of the province of Quebec on account of blindness allowances for the month of May, 1952?
6.	What amount was paid by the federal government to the government of the province of Quebec on account of blindness allowances from January 1, to May 31, 1952?


Mr. Martin:: 1.	19,566.
2.	$652,245.69 (this amount includes retroactive payments in some cases to January 1, 1952).
3.	$1,765,444.16.
4.	3,004.
5.	$89,838.01.
6.	$452,474.29.



HEALTH GRANTS


Mr. Stick:: 1. What is the total amount of financial assistance under the national health grants program approved by the federal government, for projects submitted by the province of Newfoundland, since April 1. 1949?

2.	How many hospitals in the province of Newfoundland are receiving or have received federal financial aid under the hospital construction grant?
3.	What are the names and bed capacities of these hospitals?
4.	What are the total' commitments to date under the hospital construction grant for projects submitted by the province of Newfoundland?


Mr. Martin:: 1.	$2,538,929.
2.	Ten.
3.	Name of hospital - Number of beds
Channel Cottage hospital, 27; 4-24 bed
equivalents.
Fogo Cottage hospital, 6; 3 nurses' beds; 1-772 bed equivalents.
Grace hospital, 96; 20 nurses' beds.
Hospital for mental and nervous diseases, 316.
Lamaline nursing station, 3-538 bed equivalents.
St. John's sanatorium, 116.
Springdale Cottage hospital, 27; 4-324 bed equivalents.
Trepassey nursing station, 5-9 bed equivalents.
West Coast sanatorium, 227.
Western Memorial hospital, 113; 35 nurses' beds.
Total, 928 patient beds; 58 nurses' beds; 19-774 bed equivalents.
4.	$922,487.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Knowles:: What are the names and ages of the judges of all courts in Canada which come under federal jurisdiction, including the Supreme Court of Canada, the Exchequer Court of Canada, and the superior courts in each of the provinces?



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Mr. Gillis:: 1.	What was the total amount of coal produced in the maritime provinces bought by the Canadian National Railways in the year 1951, from (a) Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation; (b) other coal operators?
2.	What was the total amount of subventions paid to the Canadian National Railways for carrying maritime coal to various subvention areas for the year 1951?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Robichaud:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, petitions and surveys, from 1949 to date, relating to the construction of a federal building
Motions for Papers
to house the post office and the customs office in the village of Caraquet, county of Gloucester, New Brunswick.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: If the reports referred to are of a confidential nature from employee to minister I would make the reservation that they be not tabled. This same reservation would apply to the following four motions for production of papers.


Mr. Speaker:: Shall the motion carry with the reservation as indicated by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Albany M. Robichaud: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, and surveys, from 1949 to date, relating to the opening of a central post office in the village of Petit Rocher, in the county of Gloucester. New Brunswick.



TRACADIE HARBOUR, N.B.

Albany M. Robichaud: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, petitions and surveys, from 1949 to date, relating to the dredging of the harbour at Tracadie, in the county of Gloucester, New Brunswick, and the construction of adequate breakwaters for the protection of said harbour.



POST OFFICE AND OTHER DEPARTMENTAL OFFICES, TRACADIE, N.B.

Albany M. Robichaud: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, petitions and surveys, from 1949 to date, relating to the construction of a federal building to house the post office and for other federal departmental offices in the village of Tracadie, New Brunswick.



MAIL DELIVERY IN BATHURST, N.B.

Albany M. Robichaud: For a copy of report made to the Post Office Department, relating to the survey made in Bathurst, New Brunswick, on house to house mail delivery.



INQUIRY FOR RETURNS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. E. Lennard (Wentworth):: I should like to direct a question to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Defence Production. When may I expect answers to five questions of mine passed as orders for returns on May 15 and also six questions of mine passed as orders for returns on May 28? The parliamentary assistant intimated to me several days ago that the answers to some of these questions would be brought down at the beginning of this week. I should like to know when I may expect the answers.

Inquiries of the Ministry Mr. J. H. Dickey (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Defence Production): The
answers to these orders for returns are being brought down as rapidly as possible. I think the balance of them were finally checked this morning and will be tabled before the end of the session.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: wish to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. It has to do with a press announcement that all United States citizens in Canada between the ages of 18 and 24 have to register with the American embassy. Has any arrangement been made, or have notes passed between the United States and Canada, to provide for the extraterritorial enforcement of that regulation so that the United States will have the power to enforce it in Canada?


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: My understanding is that there is no such arrangement and that no such notes have been exchanged but I will look into the matter and give a supplementary answer tomorrow.
(Translation):


GOVERNMENT CHEQUES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Wilfrid LaCroix (Quebec-Montmorency):: I would like to ask the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) if he can assure me that he will give an answer to question No. 8 which is on the order paper and reads as follows:
1.	Who is responsible for printing cheques of the Canadian government, such as those for family allowances, old age pensions, etc.?
2.	Why are not these cheques printed and distributed all over the country in the two official languages, as is the paper money issued by the Bank of Canada?


Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: I shall give an answer to the hon. member tomorrow.
(Text):


AMOUNT IN STORE IN COUNTRY ELEVATORS- WEEKLY LOADINGS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport):: Yesterday the hon. member for Melfort rMr. Lennard.)

asked for additional information concerning the amount of grain in country elevators. As of the 12th of June, the latest figures available being for that date, there were 164 million bushels of all grains *in country elevators. Loadings at country elevators are averaging 15-2 million bushels per week at the present time.


MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT
Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved: that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the establishment of a pension plan after long service for members of the House of Commons of Canada; to provide also for contributions by all the said members to a special account for such purpose; and to provide further that the pensions payable shall be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund and charged to the said special account.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Chairman, hon. members will find in Votes and Proceedings of yesterday the report made by the standing committee on banking and commerce recommending legislation for the purpose of establishing a pension plan after long service for members of the House of Commons on the basis of contributions equal to the contributions required by the Civil Service Superannuation Act and to be matched by like contributions from the treasury as is the case under the Civil Service Superannuation Act. Hon. members will recall that when I gave notice in the house of the motion to refer the subject matter of a pension plan for members to the standing committee on banking and commerce I stated that a number of hon. members had been working for a long time on the preparation of a plan which had been examined by the superintendent of insurance, his actuaries and by experts from the Department of Finance, and that the plan appeared to them to be actuarially sound. I pointed out that if it were felt generally in the house that the establishment of such a pension plan would strengthen our parliamentary institution by removing to a certain degree the feeling that long years spent in the public service made it impossible for a man to provide adequately for his later years such a plan would be of a nature to encourage the right kind of men to run for public office and afterwards, when they had acquired experience, to remain in public life as long as their constituents wished them to do so, it might be considered.
I said that if a sound scheme could be devised it would not be apt to meet with.

objections on the part of the government because I had made sure before making that statement in the house, by discussing the matter with the leader of the official opposition, the leader of the C.C.F. party and the leader of the Social Credit group, that they felt as I did that it was something that should be envisaged not merely in the interests of those who happened to be members of parliament at the present time. It was our view that if it was something that was merely going to be in their interest it should not be considered. However, if the opinion was that it was something that would really strengthen our parliamentary institution and make it easier to get and keep in parliament the kind of representatives necessary for the health of a democratic system, then, on the assurance that it was not going to be a partisan football of any kind and was something upon which there was general agreement by those who were more concerned about the interests of the public generally than the interests of their colleagues, for whom of course they have great friendship, I said that I would put the matter before my colleagues and get their authority to have the matter referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce. Before that committee the actuaries could be heard and could report what past experience would seem to indicate would happen under this kind of fund, and if it was felt to be the right thing by the committee there could be a recommendation [DOT] made as to the legislation required.
Of course I pointed out that any legislation would have to be preceded by a resolution and that such a resolution would have to be accompanied by the recommendation of the governor general as required by our constitution and by the standing orders of the house, but that if such were the development there would not be apt to be objections that could not be overcome so far as the constitutional requirements of the British North America Act and our standing orders are concerned. This resolution is the fulfilment of the implied undertaking I gave that if there was such a recommendation a resolution would be forthcoming. The purpose of the resolution is to enable the house to consider the legislation recommended by the standing committee on banking and commerce. I have gone over the bill. It is in print and I think it is already in the hands of hon. members.


Mr. Green:: No.


Mr.   Si. Laurenl@: It is ready to be put in the hands of hon. members as soon as the resolution is adopted, and the terms of the recommendation, with which the bill to be introduced conforms, are included in the
Members of Parliament-Pensions committee's report in yesterday's Votes and Proceedings. I have looked at them and they appear to be in line with the proposal that I had seen before the matter was referred to the committee, and about which I had ascertained from the superintendent of insurance and from the experts of the finance department that it was apt to be actuarially sound and a matter that would operate without any further charge on the public funds than the matching of the contributions to be made by all the members of parliament.
If that be so, and I have every reason to believe that it is so, it means that something of the order of $60,000 annually would be required to be placed in this fund and would suffice, with the contributions of the members, to provide for this additional security quite substantially although it will not operate in favour of very many of our members. It is the result of everyone being a collaborator in creating this security that makes it possible; but past experience has demonstrated that there will not be a substantial portion of the members of parliament in whose benefit it is apt to operate. That is like all co-operative undertakings. One does not know who will be in a situation where the benefits from the scheme would be very desirable but one does know that the additional feeling of security will be shared by all.
That being the case I feel it is a privilege, not as Prime Minister but as leader of the house, to provide all the necessary requirements to make it possible for the house to give consideration to this plan. If it comes to the conclusion to which it is apt to come from the information I have received I think it is a good thing and in the public interest to have it made law and become operative.
Once again, had I not had the assurance that the leaders of all parties of the house objectively felt that this was a good thing and in the public interest generally I would not have taken the responsibility of getting the authority of my colleagues to sponsor it. I know there is one hon. member who feels otherwise about it and perhaps there are others. So far one hon. member has expressed the view that there should not be in the case of members of parliament any contribution whatsoever from the public treasury to this pension fund. With that personally I do not agree. I do not see why those who serve their fellow citizens in parliament should not be entitled to the same consideration from their fellow citizens as the gentlemen who administer justice on the benches of our courts and as the officials who serve in the administration of our public affairs.
I have heard the suggestion that this would somehow lower the dignity of members of parliament. With that I am not in agreement.

Members of Parliament-Pensions 1 know, and all hon. members know, that the dignity of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom has never been affected by the fact that on becoming Lord Chancellor he gets the assurance of an allowance to continue throughout the whole of his natural life. I do not think that the dignity of the present Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has in the least bit been affected by the fact that the legislation of the United Kingdom provides that a former prime minister is entitled to a pension from the public funds without, as I understand it, any contribution at all. Here is a contributory system which if it is set up shows the desire of each one of us to make his contribution, that will give a feeling of security to each and every one, although we all know there is probably not more than one in twenty who will ever be in a position where actual benefits to himself will materialize.
I am inclined to think that most of our people in Canada are reasonably minded and that they will feel that this is a laudable thing for members of parliament to do for each other, and that by doing it for each other they are performing a service to the public generally by strengthening our parliamentary institution.


Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Chairman, before the resolution carries perhaps the Prime Minister would answer some questions in regard to this proposed scheme. Also, since the Prime Minister has referred to the views of a certain hon. member, obviously indicating myself, he will permit me to say that my questions stem from the views I hold.
If it is decided by parliament that the scheme should go through in its present form with the present benefits and with the present scale of matching contributions, I feel that it would be desirable to place it on a basis where it would be financed as far as possible by the contributions by members. Now I agree with, and I have said that I have no objection to, a pension scheme for members of parliament. I said that at the outset and still maintain that position, but my feeling is that we should if possible finance it ourselves. Even if this house feels that it is not possible for us to finance it ourselves and still have a good scheme I think we should lower as far as possible the contributions from the treasury. I am aware that the membership of the house seems to feel generally that this is a good scheme and I will therefore at this time at any rate confine my remarks to questions.
I want to point out to the Prime Minister, as a basis for the questions, that in every other parliamentary pension plan that was laid before us for purposes of comparison


there is an age floor-that is an age before
which no member can start receiving a pension.
We were given figures to show that if this pension were deferred to age 60 then on the basis of the same benefits as presently proposed the treasury contribution could be reduced to 4 per cent instead of the proposed 6 per cent. If the pension were reduced to 60 per cent of our payment, it would provide a pension of $2,400 a year and the treasury contribution would be reduced to 2-6 per cent. If the pension were deferred to age 55, on the basis of the same two sets of figures-


Mr. Sinclair:: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. Since there is no mention in the resolution of the type of contribution by either the individual or the state, is the member in order in discussing details of what he expects to be in the bill which has not yet been presented by the minister?


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: The bill is
in today's Votes and Proceedings.


The Chairman:: I am glad the hon. member has raised the point of order because, as I was listening to the hon. member for Kamloops I was just asking myself whether he was in order. The resolution is:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the establishment of a pension plan after long service for members of the House of Commons of Canada;
The hon. member has said he is in favour of that. And
to provide also for contributions . . .
He has also said he is in favour of that. What he is objecting to is the last part of the resolution which provides:
. . . that the pensions payable shall be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund and charged to the said special account.
At this stage, as the hon. member knows, we are studying the advisability of allowing an expenditure to be made, and he would be anticipating the discussion in committee of the whole on the bill if he were to refer now to what he thinks may be in the bill itself. I know that the draft bill has been referred to the committee on banking and commerce, so he knows some of the details. At this stage, however, discussion should be limited to the advisability of allowing the expenditure to be made.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The facts I was giving, Mr. Chairman, were to form the background of my question. I think I can ask the question without further reference to the details. I should like to ask the Prime Minister whether he would accept, and view with favour, an amendment which would insert an age floor

Members of Parliament-Pensions in the scheme, and whatever might be felt given in the committee, would have the effect would be the best figure which would be of appreciably reducing the treasury arrived at.	contribution.


James Sinclair: I rise to the same point of order, Mr. Chairman. There is no mention of an age floor in the resolution. The hon. member is just as much out of order in talking about an age floor as he was in talking about a contribution.


Louis-René Beaudoin: The hon. member is, of course, anxious to obtain certain information. May I suggest to him he will have ample opportunity to do that. The bill is not before the house at the moment. A minister is not allowed to divulge the details of a bill. I do not have the citation at hand which is applicable in this instance, but there is one which I have quoted several times in this house and which is to the effect that at the resolution stage a minister may, if he wishes to do so, sometimes reveal details, but he is not supposed to reveal the details of a bill.
If the hon. member is, therefore, asking whether those provisions will be in the bill, I believe he is anticipating the discussion in the committee of the whole. Perhaps he might consider that.


Howard Charles Green: On the point of order, there is a report from the committee which is involved in this whole measure. The Prime Minister himself has referred to that report. I submit the hon. member is in order in bringing up anything either contained in that report or to which reference was made in the discussion in the committee.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, the subject matter has been referred to a committee of the house, which committee has reported recommending draft legislation. The strict rule that applies to legislation, the form of which is still unknown, perhaps does not apply here because the subject matter and the manner in which it is recommended that the subject matter be handled is already in the possession of the house in the report that has been submitted. I am sure the hon. member does not intend to go beyond general questions, and will reserve his special arguments on his special views for the committee stage on the bill, if and when we get to that point.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I appreciate the Prime Minister's attitude, and I should like to ask him if he will give his view on this question of the insertion of an age floor. If you like, I can relate it to the definition of long service which forms a part of this resolution. I particularly point out that the insertion of an age floor, according to the tables we were


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The hon. member said he would like to know whether the Prime Minister would accept an amendment having to do with an age floor. My position is that, as leader of the house, I am moving the bill recommended by the committee on banking and commerce. It will be for the members of the house themselves to decide whether that recommendation meets with their approval, or whether they see fit to modify it. Of course they would not be allowed, under the recommendation made by the governor general, to amend it in such a manner as to increase the charges on the treasury, but there is no constitutional objection to modifying it in any manner that would diminish the charges on the treasury.


Howard Charles Green: This resolution, Mr. Chairman, reads as follows:


Some hon. Members:: We know, dispense.


Howard Charles Green: It is a strange thing that when we come to discuss a matter of this kind we hear shouts and catcalls from different parts of the house. Surely, as members of parliament representing the Canadian people, we have the sense of propriety to debate this measure without those interjections.


Mr. Poulioi:: I rise to a question of
privilege, Mr. Chairman. When the hon. member said that he intended to read the resolution, I said: "Dispense", in order to be gracious to him and to give him an opportunity of saving his voice for future occasions. He said that it was a catcall. I want the hon. member to understand that I always listen to him with great pleasure, and if I said "dispense" it was not a catcall at all but a gracious suggestion for his own comfort and well-being.


Howard Charles Green: This resolution reads as follows, Mr. Chairman:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the establishment of a pension plan after long service for members of the House of Commons of Canada; to provide also for contributions by all the said members to a special account for such purpose; and to provide further that the pensions payable shall be paid out of the consolidated revenue fund and charged to the said special account.
In his opening remarks today the Prime Minister has made it clear that, in addition to payments to be made by members, there will also be payments from the consolidated revenue fund. He has told us that this measure will strengthen our parliamentary institutions, and also that the plan is actuarially sound, although I would point out that it could only be actuarially sound, if

Members of Parliament-Pensions in fact it is, which I doubt, because of the contributions from the consolidated revenue fund. Then, he has stated that the money from the consolidated revenue fund will only be a matching contribution to that made by members of parliament. Again, my understanding is that that is not the case and that there will have to be more paid by the country than is paid by the members. He has said also that no increased payments will be required in the years that lie ahead. No one can foretell that, but I shall be surprised if his statement proves to be accurate.
I believe that the government must accept responsibility for this measure.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.
Mr. leader?	Stuart	(Charlotte): Where	is your


Howard Charles Green: The government	of this
country-


Mr. Abbott:: Where is your leader today?


Mr. Graydon:: The leader is in Fort William, and there is no use casting aspersions against him when he cannot be here.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I was not casting aspersions.


Howard Charles Green: The government of Canada, and of any other country governed under the democratic system, must accept responsibility for measures placed before the house involving the expenditure of public funds. This is a measure of that type, and try as the government will it cannot get away from responsibility for this measure.


James Sinclair: You have obviously no respect for the word of your own leader.


Howard Charles Green: Well, that is just typical of the kind of remarks that are made from time to time by the member for Coast-Capilano. I often wish that his constituents could hear him in the house. If they were to do so, I think they might get a shock.
I believe that the stand taken by my good friend the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) in this matter has been right from the start. I think he has shown great courage. May I say, as a native of British Columbia, that I do not believe our province has produced a finer young man in public life than the present hon. member for Kamloops.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The leadership campaign is beginning.


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. member for
Kamloops is blushing.


Howard Charles Green: I have never seen the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) blush.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have no reason to do so.


Howard Charles Green: I believe that any pension plan for members of parliament should be paid for by the members themselves. In this plan the members are paying far less than half the total expenditure.


Mr. Cleaver:: That is not true.


Howard Charles Green: The remainder will be paid
by our fellow Canadians. I believe that the people of Canada should not have to contribute to any scheme of this type.


Hughes Cleaver: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


Hughes Cleaver: The hon. member has made a statement which I believe, I know, to be untrue.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, that is an
unparliamentary remark.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. The hon. member wants to ask a question.


Hughes Cleaver: Mr. Chairman, I obtained
the approval of the hon. member. Once the approval is given-


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. What the hon.
member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) seems to want to complain about at this moment is that he thinks the hon. member is going to make a speech. I think he consented to allow a question to be asked. The hon. member will ask the question.


Hughes Cleaver: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understood distinctly that I had the consent of the hon. member.


Howard Charles Green: Ask the question.


Hughes Cleaver: The fact that the hon. member does not approve of the question I am going to ask does not detract at all from my rights.


Howard Charles Green: Well, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw my approval.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


Hughes Cleaver: I believe I have the floor as a matter of right.


Howard Charles Green: The hon. member can make his own speech.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. I believe we shall make better progress if this discussion is conducted in an orderly manner. The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra had the floor. The hon. member for Halton (Mr. Cleaver) asked consent to ask him a question. The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra gave way by resuming his seat, thereby acquiescing in the

hon. member's asking the question. When the hon. member for Halton began to ask his question it appeared to the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra that he was going to make a statement and not ask his question. The hon. member for Halton said that the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra did not like to have a question asked to which he would be opposed. That certainly is not the manner in which an hon. member should ask the hon. member who has the floor for permission to ask a question.


Hughes Cleaver: My question is as to-


Howard Charles Green: I am not answering any
questions from the hon. member.


Louis-René Beaudoin: If the hon. member for
Vancouver-Quadra does not want to consent to the question being asked, that is his right. He has the floor and therefore may proceed.


Hughes Cleaver: That is on the record.


Howard Charles Green: As I was saying when I was interrupted, Mr. Chairman, the people of Canada should not have to contribute in order to provide pensions for members of parliament. The burden of taxation on our people is far too heavy now. It can only be described as crushing. Just to give one example, we have the 10 per cent sales tax, the highest rate there has ever been in the history of this nation. That tax is payable by everyone, poor and rich alike. Canadians should not now be called upon to help pay for security for members of parliament. The Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has put the matter in those words; he has said it would be a nice thing for members of parliament to have an additional feeling of security.
May I remind the committee that just today we shall be considering a vote of over $2 billion for defence purposes, in preparation to defend this country and to prevent a third world war which, if it comes, may well mean the wiping out of our nation. The taxpayers of Canada are having to provide over $2 billion in this very year for these defence purposes. I do not see how, under those circumstances, hon. members can justify calling upon the taxpayers to provide a further amount, no matter how small it is, in order to help members of parliament.
I would also point out that during this very week we considered the War Veterans Allowance Act which is a measure for the benefit of men who fought in the front line for this country. In my opinion the provisions made in that measure were entirely inadequate. In addition, these men are still subject to a means test. They have to pass a means test in order to get this miserably
Members of Parliament-Pensions small amount. There is no means test, however, in this pension scheme for members of parliament.
What will probably follow the enactment of a measure of this kind will be that most of the provincial legislatures will bring in similar measures. They will take the attitude that if members of parliament are entitled to a pension scheme, then so are the members of provincial legislatures. That is exactly what happened when the house raised the indemnity for members some years ago; it was not long until the various legislatures were doing the same thing. We set an example when we enact a measure of this kind.
I see no reason whatever for rushing through a measure of this kind in the dying days of the session. The details of the scheme have been available to the public only since the last week end. There has been no opportunity for people across the country to consider whether or not the scheme is a wise one. I think if a fair scheme could have been brought down there would have been general support for it across the country. But there has been no opportunity whatever for the press of Canada or the people of Canada to form an opinion on this particular scheme. We are asked to debate it today when we have not even the reports of what went on in this committee. There was quite an extended questioning carried on in the committee, and various other proposals were discussed. Government officials explained other plans. Yet we have not the reprint of those proceedings.
I suggest to the Prime Minister that this plan should stand over until the next session. That procedure would give time for thorough consideration not only by the members of the house but also by the people. Nobody is going to be hurt if the plan stands over. The pension would not be payable to anyone before the next election which we all understand is not to take place until after the next session. I repeat that no one would be hurt by letting this plan stand over until the next session. I believe that if that were done a better plan could be worked out. There is altogether too much haste, too much anxiety to get this through in a hurry; and we usually find that when that condition exists the measure as finally enacted does not turn out to be as sound as it would be in the ordinary case.	.
Then, finally, I differ from the Prime Minister in his statement that he believes this measure will strengthen our parliamentary institutions; I believe it will do exactly the opposite. I believe the measure itself and the manner in which it has been

Members of Parliament-Pensions brought into the House of Commons, and is obviously to be rushed through, can only lower respect for parliament across this country. I greatly regret that the measure is being brought in in this way, and at this time.


Mr. Mclvor:: Mr. Chairman, there is one argument involved in this pension scheme that has not yet been touched upon. There is a general opinion among certain people that the salary of members is but a small part of their income. And, using the language of the street, they say, "Look at the pickings they get!"
I do not know anything about income that comes from pickings, nor do I know any member in the House of Commons who knows. That is a point of view that we should disregard. I have heard men speak after they have passed through the House of Commons and, if I may quote the opinion of a young lawyer who had that experience, the only thing they gained was a few hot enemies and a lot of cool friends.
I commend the Prime Minister for not going ahead with this scheme without the co-operation of the leaders of the other parties. It is the perfect right of any individual to disagree with this group and to oppose any scheme that, according to his conscience, he does not think is right. I think the plan is fair to members of the House of Commons, and I commend the Prime Minister again for not proceeding without the consent of the other leaders.


Mr. Maclnnis:: Mr. Speaker, as one of the older members in the house, and one who would benefit if this scheme or this plan were to go through-if I should live long enough-I wish to say that I am in favour of the plan. I am in favour of the way it was introduced. With all due regard to the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, I do not think it is fair to say that the Prime Minister should take responsibility for the measure, in view of what has happened in the matter of communications with the various parties-provided, of course, that the same procedure was taken with the official opposition as was taken with the C.C.F.
There is, however, one thing I would like to say, and that is to suggest to my many friends on the other side of the house that they be not too hasty, and that they do not interrupt and be impatient when there is discussion from this side of the house. Nothing could cause more discredit to the House of Commons than to have it considered that members on any side or on all sides of the
!Mr. Green.]
house tried to force this measure through,
without the most ample discussion.
In my opinion the proposal of a pension after long service for members is so reasonable that we can afford to consider it calmly and dispassionately. I have the highest regard for my hon. friend from Kamloops. If he feels that he should oppose the measure, then we should consider that he is doing a favour not only to himself but to this house in opposing it. We are here to give expression to our opinions and our convictions. If either the hon. member for Kamloops or the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra feels differently to the rest of us he should be allowed to state his opinion, and with the utmost of freedom.
Hon. members of this house have been quite generous with pensions for various categories, if I may use that term, of the public service. We have provided pensions for judges, pensions that are very ample. Not only have we provided pensions for judges, but they have been so arranged that those pensions may be divided for the benefit of their wives or widows, as the case may be. We have provided pensions for our civil servants, and the contributions to those pensions are, as I understand it, pretty much in line with the contributions provided by this bill. We have provided pensions for the various commissions we have set up. And not only do we provide them with pensions, but we provide good salaries for them, as well.
Now, surely any member who has given long service in the House of Commons, long service to the people of Canada, does not feel he is receiving too much if he receives a modest pension upon retirement, after giving that service. I have had the honour of representing a constituency in Vancouver for twenty-two years, I believe it is. I feel I have given of my best to the people of Vancouver.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald MacInnis: I believe the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra has done the same. I do not believe the people of Vancouver would begrudge me a pension for the rest of my days-


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Donald MacInnis: -and I do not know how long they will be. I do not believe they would begrudge me a pension after my service to them is finished.
Surely any member of the house who feels he has given service to his people can feel that he is entitled to assume that he will not be up against hard economic conditions

when he is no longer able to give that service.
I think that is the way the question should be approached.
The position of the Prime Minister is quite simple. If he finds there is opposition to the measure from members in the house, then he can very easily say, "All right; we will not go ahead with it." But I would like to see this matter discussed calmly and on its merits, and decided by a vote of the membership, so that we would not put the Prime Minister in a position where he would have to take that responsibility; and I would not suggest that he take it. I suggest that it be left with hon. members where it belongs.


Mr. Low:: Mr. Chairman, I would feel that I was negligent in my duty if I did not at this stage say a few words in connection with this resolution. I want to begin by saying that I agree with everything the Prime Minister has said. I support him 100 per cent in what he has said. I want it understood that in saying that I do not hold the Prime Minister responsible for bringing in this measure although I honour him for doing what the members of the House of Commons asked him to do.
I have been studying this matter in my mind for many months. The general proposal has been known to me for at least four months and some of the details for six or eight months. I happen to know that a proposal for a form of pension for long service in the House of Commons has been under consideration for the past two years or more by members of the House of Commons, not by the government or by the Prime Minister aside from their positions as members in the house. That would apply to the members of all parties.
I wish to make it abundantly clear that I do not think this measure is being rushed through, nor do I wish the committee to take hasty action even now. I should like to see every member given the fullest opportunity to study it and to bring himself fully into knowledge of what we are doing.
I honour any member who feels that he cannot support this legislation, if he stands up and says so and gives his reason. He has that right. I do not hold it against the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra or the hon. member for Kamloops for taking the position they have. I have always found them to be men of great courage, men who were prepared to fight for their convictions, so I am not going to say one word now or at any other time against the stand they have taken. I believe that both of them are wrong, and I think time will show that they are wrong, but I shall fight for their right to be wrong at any time.
Members of Parliament-Pensions
I have definite reasons for feeling that a scheme of this kind will strengthen our parliamentary institutions. I am not going to speak at length, and 1 have not asked my colleague, the hon. member for Lethbridge, if I could use this illustration. The hon. member for Lethbridge came into this house in 1935 when he was requested by his people to stand for election. I do not know of any time in his life when he has sought to represent his people. He did not seek to represent them; he was sought by his people and asked to stand. He did stand and was elected at a time when he was at the height of his earning powers.
He has been in this house seventeen years during which time he has passed the most lucrative earning years of his life. Anyone who thinks that a member can stay in this House of Commons and do his duty toward the people of the country and accumulate anything honestly just does not know anything about it. He just cannot do it.
In addition my colleague surrendered seventeen years of pension rights in the professional body to which he belonged in the province of Alberta. He did that in order to serve the public and he can never get back those rights. He is at the point of years now where it would be impossible for him to start over again. Such surrender of rights is a serious thing for any man, I do not care who he is. The same thing can be said for the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, who is in exactly the same position.
These are things which must be considered seriously. When anyone says that it does not strengthen our parliamentary institutions to have a measure of this kind, I do not think he has thought through the details. It is all right for a man who has a profession to which he can go back every week end and keep up his earning powers. That is true largely of the legal profession, but who wants this House of Commons to be made up of lawyers entirely? I think I speak for the general public when I say that we want some lawyers, but we do not want all members to be lawyers.
Then there are hon. members who belong to other professions which they can carry on and keep up their earning capacity over the years. By and large, if we are to have a parliamentary representation that is a crosssection of the people we must have some arrangement of this kind. Otherwise we are going to eliminate the possibility of having cross-section representation. It will end in a situation where only privileged classes will be representing the people in parliament and I do not want to see that.
I do not want to labour this, but I do want to say that I agree 100 per cent with the

Members of Parliament-Pensions Prime Minister's statement that this will strengthen and give health and vigour to our parliamentary institution. I do not know whether I shall ever participate in this plan, but if I were going to retire tomorrow from this house I would still support it because I think it has merit. I want to absolve the Prime Minister from all responsibility for bringing forward this legislation and place that responsibility right where it belongs, on the members of all parties who agreed to have it brought in and who agreed to support it. As you no doubt know, I am supporting the measure.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to say that when my good friend, the hon. member for Vancouver East, spoke, he spoke for the whole of our group. This matter was discussed with the Prime Minister and after discussing the matter with my colleagues in the house I gave him the assurance that we were in favour of a scheme of this description. When I gave the Prime Minister that assurance I understood that a similar assurance had been received from the leader of the opposition to the extent that a substantial majority of the Progressive Conservative membership in the house was in support of a scheme of this description. Consequently I would take it that the opposition which has been indicated to this measure is from a minority in the Progressive Conservative party and we should regard it as such.
A minority has the right to express divergent views, but I do not think those views should be over-valuated at this stage of the discussion. I would hope that there would be a recorded vote on this proposal as that would clear the atmosphere and we would know just where every member stood.
I want to say to the Prime Minister that I think it was unfair to suggest that either the Prime Minister or the government should assume responsibility for a measure which has been brought before this house at the request of all parts and parties in the house, and after the assurance was given by the leaders of all parties in this house that a substantial majority of the members of the parties were in favour of this measure. This is a measure which is in the interests of all members of the house, and, if I may say so without being misunderstood, in the interests more particularly of the opposition members. It is generally known that the casualties in a general election on the government side of the house when the government is returned to power may be provided for by some other means, but it is very rarely indeed that when casualties occur among members of the opposition there are places


vacant after all the casualties on the government side have been taken care of. Therefore I say we should not try to place responsibility upon the government for a measure so favourable to the opposition if there should be any criticism of it here or elsewhere in the country.
As one of the senior members of the house with some seventeen years' service, I merely wish to state that during that period of time -hon. members will probably know some of the personnel to whom I refer-I have seen men and women who have served the country long and well pass beyond the portals of the parliament buildings after a general election, or forced to retire through ill health, only to return to a condition bordering on relative poverty. I do not think the people of Canada want that to occur in the future. In the last eight months or more I have talked to people about a scheme of this description. The hon. member for Peace River is perfectly right when he says there has been a good deal of discussion of the matter among various members of the house over many months. When I have gone to my constituency or have been talking to people elsewhere in Canada I have taken the trouble to say privately that such a scheme was being discussed by the members of the house, and I have not found any citizen, who has given any consideration to the matter and to the welfare of the membership of the House of Commons and of the country, who has uttered one word against a scheme of this description. I rose to say that my hon. friend spoke for us but as I was one of the three in this house who had given the Prime Minister the assurance that a substantial majority of our colleagues were in favour of such a plan I felt I owed it to the Prime Minister, yes, to the leader of the opposition, as well as to myself to say what I have just said.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: In fairness to the leader of the opposition, who is not here this morning, I think I should state that when he told me that he personally favoured such a scheme and that he knew that the majority of his group favoured it he did say that there might be members who would not agree. Therefore the situation which has developed is one which was implied in what the leader of the opposition said to me when I spoke to him about the matter.


Mr. Adamson:: I thank the Prime Minister for an eminently fair statement with regard to the leader of the opposition. As the senior member for the Conservative party on the banking and commerce committee, I wish to dissociate myself and the party from the remarks made by the two members from British Columbia. I do so with regret

because I feel that an agreement was reached by members and all party leaders on this subject. That is why I am particularly pleased with the statement the Prime Minister has made, and if I were to indicate that the Conservative party was not prepared in every way to accept full responsibility for agreement on this measure I would not be doing my duty as a member of the house and a member of that party.
We are responsible for our actions as individuals and as members of parties. We cannot delegate that responsibility to others. I take full responsibility for what I am saying and doing now. We as a party agreed to this measure and the huge majority of the Conservative party is in favour of it. The question of representation in this house is one of vital importance to the country. The calibre and quality of the people who can be induced to give up the best earning years of their lives to come here and serve the country is of paramount importance to the well-being of Canada. I say that as a professional man because I feel that the more professional men we can induce to take their places in this chamber the better the representation we shall have.
Under the present situation you cannot expect a professional man to give up his practice to come here. I do not care how carefully he works at his profession during the recesses and week ends, no man can be a member of this house and even do the necessary reading to keep himself up to date in any profession today in our modern world. Therefore we are virtually asking the professional man to give up his profession when we ask him to come here. If we are going to induce more people of that type to become members of parliament there has to be some small measure of security after long service. At one time in the thirties there were seven Canadians who had formerly held the high office of premier in various provinces and who were not then in office or members of any legislature. Of those seven four were in receipt of charity and one was on direct relief. If we are not prepared to look after those who, as a result of the judgment of the people in a free election, are called on to write and administer the laws of the country, we make a severe reflection on the whole status of our Canadian citizenship.


Mr. Pearkes:: Mr. Chairman, I am glad
that this discussion has taken place because I do not think it would have reflected any credit on this house had this resolution been passed without thorough consideration.
There is just one point that I wish to raise with the Prime Minister and possibly it may be considered as a personal point; I
Members of Parliament-Pensions do not know. I happen to be in receipt of a government pension at the present time. There may be other members who are in receipt of government pensions to which they have contributed, as I have contributed for a period of some thirty years. It is repugnant to me to ask for a second government supported pension.
I wonder whether the question of all members of parliament contributing to this scheme has taken cognizance of the fact that there may be members of parliament who are already in receipt of a government pension. As I say, I feel that it would be objectionable to me to be placed in the position of accepting two government pensions because I realize that there are many of my old comrades who are in a far less fortunate position and never had an opportunity to contribute to a government pension scheme.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that the attention of the banking and commerce committee was called to the particular circumstances to which the hon. gentleman has just referred. I know that an effort was made to avoid duplication and that is to be found in the draft report in Votes and Proceedings under Nos. 15 and 16.
When the matter is before the committee consideration can be given to the terms of sections 15 and 16 of the bill to see whether they are sufficiently extensive. It is provided, as I understand from reading the report, that one who would be enjoying a judge's pension, for instance, would not get any allowance under this scheme. It may be that when it is before the committee of the whole for consideration it will be found that the terms should be modified because I think the intention was that there should be no duplication. If it gets to the stage of the committee of the whole I think that the committee should then give consideration to the language used to see whether it is broad enough to carry out that intention in all cases.
(Translation):


Mr. Poulin:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words-and I shall not detain the house very long-on the principle of the resolution now under consideration. As I do not belong to any of the political parties represented in the house, needless to say I have not been consulted. This enables me to express more freely my humble personal opinion.
I must say at the outset that I cannot approve entirely of the principle of this resolution. I should immediately add that I am not saying this with a view to gaining a political advantage; on the contrary, for the

Members of Parliament-Pensions proposal I would put forward might be even less popular, since it would provide for an increase in the indemnity to members of parliament.
Until now only senior members of the house have expressed their views on the matter; I hope that a junior member might also be permitted to express his humble opinion.
I simply believe that a higher and more adequate indemnity than is now paid members of the house would tend to improve the quality of the representation. I do not object to members who have served their country for several years receiving a reward; reward is probably not the right word. I should rather say that the public should be grateful to those who have spent here, as members of this house, say, 12, 15, 20 or even 25 years, for the very valuable services they have rendered to this nation.
I was listening a moment ago to the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) who has submitted the most straightforward, but, at the same time, the most convincing arguments that I have heard in this house. Besides, the unanimous approval from the members proves it and reflects the general feeling of this house.
Mr. Chairman, this is what happens: A great many of the citizens of this country would be ready to offer their services, first as candidates, then as members, but they are prevented from doing so because of their responsibilities, as their financial situation would become a complete mess should they have to come here and represent their constituents during a period of four years.
I do not think that an uncertain pension, payable after 10, 12, 15 or 20 years, would be likely to improve their situation. On the contrary, if the members' indemnities were raised to $10,000 a year, they would be sure of receiving that amount and most of them could save say, $1,000, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 annually and so accumulate a little fund which would help them to straighten out their affairs. Such would unfortunately not be the case so far as a pension is concerned and the young man who seeks a mandate would not be in a position to depend upon it when making up his mind. Granted he has been elected, he will be a member for four years afterwards. If he is defeated later on what will be the use of a pension he will never receive? What can he do?
Precisely because he has been away from his home for four years, a larger indemnity would allow this member, at least in certain cases, should he be, for instance, a professional man, or a small businessman, to pay somebody a salary, to a manager for example


who would keep his business going, who would see to it that his employees would give the best possible service. In this way the members' financial position would be protected until his return.
I therefore wish to say to all hon. members of this house-as a matter of fact I am just repeating what I was saying a moment ago- that I have absolutely no intention of making any political capital from this situation, since my suggestion will certainly be far less popular than the idea of a pension. All the same it seems to me that would provide a way to improve the calibre of the representation in the House of Commons. I am not a lawyer; of course, I would naturally like to be one but I have been denied this tremendous advantage. However, I wonder if a scheme could not be devised to allow the present senior members of the house, who are about to retire, to draw such a pension and to grant from now on a higher indemnity to the younger members who happen to be in the house at the present time and to all future members. Such a plan may not be feasible but if it were it would offer, in my humble opinion, a means of doing justice to the older members who have sacrificed themselves and it would tend to improve the quality of those who will seek in the future to represent their county in parliament.
(Text):


Mr. Ashbourne:: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that I am strongly in favour of the measure now before the house and I give it my hearty support. I consider it a forward move, and I realize that it had to fall to the lot of some parliament to introduce such legislation as we are now called upon to consider.
In so far as the members from Newfoundland are concerned, I should like to point out that they could not have service in this parliament before 1949. There are some members here who did have service in the Newfoundland parliament and I think that, so far as Newfoundland is concerned, I can make out a special case for them. I think it equitable and right that Newfoundland members who served in the Newfoundland parliament before confederation in 1949 should be entitled to have the sessions which they served in Newfoundland counted as a basis for possible qualification. In order that there might be more parity in the matter so far as Newfoundlanders are concerned, I trust that when the bill is introduced a paragraph will be placed therein to cover the matter to which I have referred.
I should like to say that my seatmate, the hon. member for Burin-Burgeo, when he entered the house, relinquished his right to a pension after seventeen years of service. In so far as Newfoundland is concerned in this

matter, I do not see how there could be exact equality since, as hon. members realize, a commission of government took office in Newfoundland on February 16, 1934. Any service rendered by members from Newfoundland would be prior to that date.


William Joseph Browne: Before the resolution carries, I do not think I should allow the remarks of the hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay to pass without some comment. On the general question, I might say that when I first heard of it it seemed rather novel to me. I was brought up in the school that considered that members of parliament should be independent. Of course that idea has now been largely dissipated, and when we come here we are party members more than we are members of the House of Commons. Nevertheless, I have heard very eloquent speeches made on this subject today. During the past three years I do ndt think there has been any subject which has moved members to speak so fervently in the cause which they are representing. I have been much impressed by the arguments advanced today, and I can see that these arguments are such as would appeal to the great majority of members. Without any doubt, a very strong case has been made out in favour of pensions for members.
I think it was the hon. member for Beauce, as near as I could follow him, who pointed out that members' salaries have not been raised for a long time and that was a matter which certainly should have received consideration prior to the question of pensions. Nevertheless, if that were done it would not make provision for members of long standing who have given such valuable service to this house and to the country. It would only relate to the future, and would not provide any recognition of the valuable services which hon. members have performed. In regard to the special remarks which the hon. member who preceded me made in reference to Newfoundland, it is worth pointing out that Newfoundland was a separate country with a government of its own, and that it had members who are now representatives in this house. I should like to point out also that during the years 1934 to 1949 we had a commission of government, and there were members of that commission of government who may one day become members of this house. It seems to me reasonable and just that consideration should be given, as the hon. member has requested, to have the hon. members from Newfoundland enter into this scheme with recognition of the service which they have given in their own land.


Mr. Power:: If I may be permitted to mention a personal element for a moment in connection with this particular resolution, I may
Members of Parliament-Pensions say that I am probably the only member of the house who has a definite mandate on this question. It came about in this way. During the course of the last general election, the campaign in the constituency of Quebec South was based solely on the fact that the former member seeking re-election had grown old in the service of the state, had become decrepit, had lost influence in the House of Commons and, in fact, had been relegated to the doghouse where even his bark was not of very much interest. My political opponents carried on a campaign on the sole issue, as they put it in French, "met-tez Power a sa pension", or in English "Pension Power off". Every telegraph pole in my constituency was covered with this slogan "Pension Power off".
The result of the election would appear to be that my electors do not approve of pensions for members. By a majority of 13,000 they decided not to "pension Power off". But adhering as I do to the old constitutional principle that a member of parliament is not the delegate of his constituency but is sent here to represent the interests of the whole of Canada, and to use his own judgment and discretion in matters that are placed before the house, I therefore feel that I could, were I so inclined, or convinced, entirely discard the mandate received from the electorate of Quebec South.
In a more serious vein, I should say that in view of the fact, if this legislation passes, that I shall be immediately placed in a beneficial economic position, I feel it would be more appropriate and more proper if I did not cast a vote, should this matter be brought to a vote.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the resolution carry0


Edmund Davie Fulton: On division.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Carried on division.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Si. Laurent thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 392, to provide retiring allowances, on a contributory basis, to persons who have served as members of the House of Commons of Canada.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


FINANCE
Douglas Charles Abbott: the second reading of Bill No. 390, respecting currency, the Royal Canadian Mint and, the exchange fund.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I have a statement

Redistribution
which I think will take me ten or fifteen minutes to make. Perhaps we might call it one o'clock.
At one o'clock the house took recess.
The house resumed at three o'clock.


REDISTRIBUTION
Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table the third report of the special committee on redistribution.


INTRODUCTION OF NEW BILL
Walter Edward Harris: May I have leave to introduce a bill with respect to the Representation Act. The house will be aware of the fact that we now have on the order paper Bill No. 8 which deals with representation. At the committee meeting this morning-and this is incorporated in the report I have just tabled -it was decided to recommend to the house that another bill be introduced to replace Bill No. 8. The second bill would be ready and might be read a first time today. It could be printed, and then come up for discussion perhaps tomorrow-if that meets the wishes of those who arrange these matters.
This bill will be similar to Bill No. 8, except for the necessary amendments as a result of the passing of the amendment to the British North America Act. The intention is that if the bill is given second reading it would then be referred to the committee on redistribution in order to have the schedule of the constituencies added to it in the normal way. I presume that if leave is given to introduce this bill it will also be necessary to ask for leave to withdraw Bill No. 8.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: Has the hon. member leave to introduce the bill, and to withdraw Bill No. 8 on the order paper?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Speaker, I think this should be allowed to stand for a while, because the leader of this party is absent at the moment and I would not wish to give consent. I would have to refuse consent until a decision were made. If it could be held over until a little later in the afternoon it would be satisfactory.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, I believe it was understood by the various parties in the committee

this morning that this leave would be given, so long as it was understood (a) that no schedule would be included in the bill to be introduced at this time and (b) that its introduction today would be without prejudice to the rights of members to debate second reading of the bill. On these conditions we are quite prepared to give leave. I thought it would be well to make this statement now, and what I have said at this time would apply at a later time in the day when the Progressive Conservative party may have decided what to do.


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has stated the understanding we reached this morning. But, in view of what the hon. member for Lake Centre has said, perhaps we could let it stand until later today.


Walter Edward Harris: Earlier today I asked leave to introduce a bill but some hon. members did not find it possible to grant that leave and therefore I am giving notice that I shall ask leave tomorrow.


FINANCE
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Abbott for the second reading of Bill No. 390, respecting currency, the Royal Canadian Mint and the exchange fund.
Hon.	Douglas Abbott	(Minister	of
Finance): Mr. Speaker, as I explained at the resolution stage, the purpose of this bill is to bring together in a single measure a modernized version of our existing legislation relating to currency, coinage and the mint, together with the necessary provisions to continue and regulate the exchange fund when the Foreign Exchange Control Act is repealed.
The bill, as hon. members will have noted, is in four parts: part I dealing with currency and coinage; part II dealing with the mint; part III dealing with the exchange fund; and part IV providing for the repeal of old measures, and the coming into force of this new measure. I will say a few words about each of these parts in turn.
Part I provides a more up-to-date version, without significant change, of most of the provisions of the old Currency Act-the remainder of its provisions will be found in part II, relating to the mint, where they more appropriately belong.
The various clauses of part I, which are fairly technical, state that the monetary unit of Canada is the dollar, and then proceed

to deal with the denominations of our currency, the characteristics of gold coins and subsidiary coins to be provided, what constitutes legal tender and in what amounts, the currency to be used in public accounts and in contracts, and some other minor matters.
In this connection there are only three points to which I think I should make special reference.
First, in regard to subsidiary or token coins, which are defined in the bill as all coins with a denomination of a dollar or less but which, more technically, are coins which have a metal content less than their face value, in contradistinction to standard coins which have an intrinsic value as metal equal to their face value, the house will note from section 5 and the schedule that the same coins with the same denominations, the same composition and the same standard of weight and fineness are being provided. In the case of certain silver coins the remedy allowance is increased somewhat to the United States level, in order to make possible a more rapid production of coins.
However, we have also thought it desirable to provide for a situation which has arisen seven times during the last ten or twelve years, namely, that in war or emergency there may be a temporary shortage of some of the metals used for coinage-silver, copper, nickel-and it may be urgently desirable to conserve supplies of these metals for defence purposes. Hon. members will recall the various changes we have had to make in the composition of our nickel coin in recent years. We have had to make these changes under our emergency legislation. If this bill is enacted, the governor in council will in future have the statutory power to issue a proclamation changing the composition of any subsidiary coin when considered necessary to conserve some of these basic metals.
My second point relates to gold coins. In the old Currency Act there was authority to coin $20, $10, $5 and $2J gold coins with a standard weight and fineness which, at the old gold price of $20.67 per ounce, resulted in these coins having a gold content equal to their face value, and Canadian gold coins as well as British and United States gold coins were made unlimited legal tender for their face amounts. When in the mid-thirties the price of gold was raised to $35 per ounce, these coins had a metal content very much in excess of their value as coins. Consequently those held by private persons have tended to disappear from circulation. The house will realize that because at the present time we are not maintaining any fixed par for our monetary unit, it would be impossible to lay down at this time any fixed standard 55704-233
Finance Acts
weight for our gold coins, in other words, any gold parity for the dollar. Whatever may be the varying view of hon. members on this general subject of the so-called gold standard, I am sure all would agree with me that for the present it is, to say the least, impracticable to fix a gold parity for our dollar.
In this bill, therefore, we are simply trying to maintain the status quo. Section 4 provides that as and when the par value of the Canadian dollar has been established by or under an act of parliament and is being maintained, that is to say the par is being made effective, then the governor in council may by proclamation authorize the issue of gold coins with denominations of $20, $10 and $5, with a fineness of nine-tenths, and with a standard weight necessarily not specified but it must, of course, be such that the value of the gold contained in the coins is equal to the face value of the coins.
I may add that we have dropped provision for a $2.50 gold coin because at the present price of gold such a coin would be inconveniently small.
The third point relates to legal tender. The bill provides that a tender of payment of money is a legal tender if it is made in gold coins issued under the authority of section 4, which I described a few minutes ago; in subsidiary coins, up to certain limited amounts, issued for circulation in Canada or issued for circulation in any province of Canada before it became a part of Canada and which immediately before the coming into force of this act were legal tender in Canada; and, of course, notes of the Bank of Canada. As compared with the present legal situation, we are merely dropping the provision that British and American and Canadian gold coins issued in the past, on the basis of $20.67 gold, are legal tender for their face value; there is no longer any point in retaining this provision, as obviously these coins will not be turned over by a debtor to his creditor at their face value-certainly not except in the rarest of instances.
Part II of the bill brings together the provisions relating to the mint presently contained in part II of the Department of Finance and Treasury Board Act-part I of that act was repealed by the financial administration act passed last year-and certain provisions of the old Currency Act which are essentially related to the operations or functions of the mint.
This part provides that all coins of the currency of Canada intended for circulation in Canada shall be issued at and from the mint. It requires facilities for making coins and for the melting, assaying and refining of gold to be established at the mint in Ottawa-
[Stage Direction]
Finance Acts
which is set up as a branch of the Department of Finance-and it permits the governor in council to establish an assay office or branch of the mint outside of Ottawa to provide facilities for melting and assaying gold or performing any other function of the mint other than coinage. Hon. members will recall that we have an assay office to perform these limited functions of melting and assaying gold in Vancouver, thus providing convenient access for gold producers in British Columbia and the Yukon.
The master of the mint and such other officers, clerks, and employees as are required are to be appointed in accordance with the Civil Service Act. The provisions of the old Mint Act protecting the retirement rights of certain old employees of the mint who were employed when the mint was a branch of the royal mint are being carried forward in this bill.
This part of the bill also includes the necessary provisions for the making of regulations governing the purchase of supplies of metal for coinage, the purchase, assaying, refining and storage of. gold, the prices, charges and other terms upon which the minister may buy, sell, assay, refine and store metals, the making of coins for other countries, and all other matters relating to coinage. It also includes detailed provisions for the trial of the pyx, requires the auditor general to inspect the store of bullion and coin at the mint at least once a year, and requires the master of the mint to make an annual report on the operations of the mint.
I now come to part III. The house will recall that when I announced last fall the dropping of all foreign exchange control regulations, I intimated that it would be necessary at this session of parliament to repeal the Foreign Exchange Control Act and provide for successor legislation suitable for the continuing conditions of the post-war period. The Foreign Exchange Control Act is one of the measures to be repealed by part IV of this bill.
To take its place we are proposing to re-enact in part III of this bill the essential provisions of the Exchange Fund Act of 1935 which it will be recalled was passed at a time of fluctuating exchange rates not too much unlike the present. The whole purpose of that act was to establish an exchange fund to aid in the control and protection of the external value of the Canadian monetary unit.
This fund was continued by the Foreign Exchange Control Act. Provision for its further continuance and for the conduct of its operations is contained in part III of this bill.
All gold, currency, deposits and securities now held in the account will, of course, con-

tinue to be held and the Minister of Finance is given power from time to time to purchase or acquire, or cause to be purchased or acquired, with money in the exchange fund account, the following: (a) gold; (b) currency of the United States; deposits in currency of the United States held in the name of the minister with the Bank of Canada or any bank designated by the minister; treasury bills or other obligations of the United States; (c) currencies of any country other than Canada and the United States that are freely convertible into gold or United States dollars, and deposits in such currencies held in the name of the minister with the Bank of Canada or any bank designated by the minister; and (d) securities of or guaranteed by the government of Canada.
The minister, of course, is also given power to sell or cause to be sold any gold, currency, deposits or securities purchased or acquired by him or on his behalf at any time with moneys in the exchange fund account, and the proceeds of the said sales, together with all earnings and interest, are to be credited to the account. The minister is also given power to make advances to the account out of the consolidated revenue fund on such terms and conditions as the governor in council may approve. Any expenses incurred in the operation of the account are to be paid out of the account.
As in the old Exchange Fund Act, the Bank of Canada is relieved of the obligation to maintain a minimum or fixed reserve ratio of gold or foreign exchange to its liabilities, and there are certain provisions designed to maintain the secrecy of the fund's operations. The provisions of the Financial Administration Act do not apply to the account, and while the auditor general must audit it and the transactions in connection with it, his certificate in general is limited to certifying whether the transactions in connection with the account have or have not been in accordance with the provisions of the act and whether the records of the account do or do not show truly and clearly the state of the account. No civil servant and no person employed in the Bank of Canada is permitted to allow any unauthorized person to have information in regard to the fund or its operations.
As I indicated at the time foreign exchange control restrictions were removed, it will be our purpose not to attempt to maintain any stipulated parity or fixed exchange rate for the Canadian dollar, at least under present conditions, but rather merely to operate so as to minimize extreme fluctuations-to smooth a trend somewhat rather than to attempt to resist a trend in either direction.

Part IV merely repeals the Currency Act, part II of the Department of Finance and Treasury Board Act dealing with the mint, sections 28, 29 and 30 of the Bank of Canada Act, and the Foreign Exchange Control Act; and provides for the coming into force of the new act on a day to be fixed by proclamation of the governor in council.
Perhaps I should explain that sections 28, 29 and 30 of the Bank of Canada Act are those sections which give to the governor in council power to require gold coin or bullion to be turned in to the Bank of Canada and to direct that in such a case the price paid shall be the old mint price of gold, that is to say $20.67 per ounce. The first subsection of section 28, which gave this power in respect of gold held by the chartered banks at the time of coming into force of the Bank of Canada Act, is already spent, and some other features of these three subsections relating to accounting are consequential in character.
I think it will be generally agreed that the primary effect of these subsections is to impose an unconscionable penalty and I think the time has now arrived when this penalty can be forgotten.
After the bill has been given second reading I shall move that it be referred to the committee on banking and commerce where the officers of my department will be available to explain its detailed and technical provisions.
Mr. J. M. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: Mr. Speaker, I have only a few comments to make as I think the proper place to deal with these matters at length is in the committee. However, there are one or two matters to which I should like to refer. I am sure the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) will realize how fully we are in accord with him when he says that the intention of the government is not to try to fix any parity to the dollar at the present time but to smooth out the irregularities.
It seems to me that perhaps the most important thing in this measure, although it will not create any practical difference at the moment, is that we now have legislative recognition of the fact that there is no fixed backing behind the Canadian dollar. The requirement of 25 per cent backing which was contained in the Bank of Canada Act is removed by this act. One question which I shall raise in the committee is in connection with the power being left to the governor in council to reassert it at their discretion.
Ever since 1939, and perhaps earlier, we have had nothing that could be referred to as a managed dollar. We did have the Exchange Fund Act, which was repealed by 55704-233i
Finance Acts
the Foreign Exchange Control Act. I take it that it is also true that there is no power now, short of legislation, to prescribe fixed rates of exchange as between Canadian and other currencies because that was contained in the Foreign Exchange Control Act which is now being repealed.
The third matter which is of importance will be dealt with by the hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson). I refer to the removal of what seemed to be a very arbitrary provision for buying gold below the market price.
There is one other matter I should like to refer to which no doubt will be dealt with in the committee. I take it that by and large the responsibility of operating our gold and United States currency account lies with the minister, and I take it also that the minister's agent in these operations, both during wartime and probably now, has been and is the Bank of Canada. I leave the matter to the committee with those comments.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Mr. Speaker, I of course welcome this bill, particularly those clauses repealing the arbitrary and wholly unjust sections of the Bank of Canada Act with regard to the enforced purchase of gold at $20.67.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Let us call them out of date.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Call them anything you like as long as you get rid of them and it will satisfy me. We have been pressing for the removal of these clauses for a number of years and welcome their disappearance. If anybody had any doubts on the matter I think the bill goes to show the use and effectiveness of gold as a monetary backing for paper currency. While the ratio of gold reserves to currency is done away with I do not see how you could have a fixed ratio of gold to currency without fixed parity. In fact I think it would be quite impossible. The point about gold coinage of course is not operative at the moment and will not be until such time as we return to a gold parity for our currency. As the minister says, when that will be no one can tell at the moment. I would hope that the bill would have the effect of restoring the use of gold as a backing for currency and would liberate a certain amount of the gold that is now being hoarded.
There is one other point in the bill which I think is a wise provision, the use of the exchange fund. At the present time with large capital movements particularly across the border it is necessary to have some fund that can prevent a raiding of currencies. When you have market manipulators you have to have some fund large enough to

Supply-National Defence prevent any manipulation of the currency for the pecuniary ends of speculators. I think that is a wise and justifiable provision. With the immense amount of foreign investment in Canada it seems to me there must be some organization capable of neutralizing panic conditions which may exist from time to time. We know that stock market crashes, rumours of war and many other things have an extremely jittery effect particularly on the New York stock market, and the exchange fund is most' necessary to prevent the full evil impact that such occurrences might have on our economy. When the bill goes to the committee we shall be able to discuss it in detail.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on banking and commerce.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE Defence services-
248. To provide for the Canadian forces, the defence research board and other expenditures relating to defence, including contributions toward the military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and notwithstanding section thirty of the Financial Administration Act, to authorize total commitments for the foregoing purposes of $3,988,568,232 regardless of the year in which such commitments will come in course of payment (of which it is estimated that $2,346,221,325 will come due for payment in future years); and to provide for the estimated actual expenditures in the fiscal year 1952-53, $1,642,346,907.
Louis-René Beaudoin: According to the agreed procedure we were examining the details as they appear in the book of estimates at page 297. When we were last considering these details I think we were studying the subheading, "Reserve force, including Canadian officers training corps."


George Randolph Pearkes: We had not finished with the army.


Louis-René Beaudoin: We had not finished with the army. Therefore we will consider the details as to the army.
Canadian army-active force and general.


Hon. Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Chairman, when the house rose last night the hon. member for Kamloops had just concluded some remarks about tanks with respect to which I should like to say a word. I believe his point was that we should not have sent 17-pounder self-propelled guns with the 25th infantry brigade to Korea but that we should have ordered Centurion or Sherman tanks before and supplied them to the brigade. He referred
IMr. Adamson.]
to a statement he had made on this subject in 1950. In the first place I should like to say that a 17-pounder anti-tank gun is a normal part of an infantry brigade group, and the decision to send a number of these guns with the brigade to Korea was arrived at for purely military reasons.
When the brigade arrived in Korea the brigade commander found he was to be associated with United States forces but working as an independent brigade. The commonwealth division had not yet been formed, and that was one of the reasons which led him on May 6, 1951, to recommend that we substitute Shermans of the M-4A3E8 type for the M-lO's which are the 17-pounders. His message sent on that date to the chief of the general staff read in part as follows:
Because Centurions are not immediately available I have now decided to request permission to change the M-lO's for the M-4A3E8. Cost of these tanks would be much less than Centurions or Pattons. My decision has been made with the advice of British and United States armoured men and commander C squadron.
That was before the brigade group entered into action so that none of the hon. gentleman's remarks bearing on that aspect of the matter had any relevance whatever. The brigade entered into action with the tanks which they have since used and employed very well. There is only one remaining point and that is whether it would have been possible for us, even if it had been desirable, to have acquired either Centurions or M-47 or M-48 Sherman tanks at the time he suggested, namely, on the 7th of September, 1950. The answer is that neither Centurions nor Shermans of that type were available for us at that time. Later we ordered Patton tanks, the M-47, just as soon as they could be delivered to us. Subsequently production of those tanks was suspended and we ordered Centurions; and we are having delivery of the Centurions as early and as quickly as we could have done by taking the course as early as September, 1950, which the hon. gentleman suggested-if that had been advisable. We submit that it was not militarily advisable and it was not possible.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I want to leave the subject that is being dealt with at the moment and bring to the attention of the minister a matter upon which I asked him a question about two weeks ago. It comes under the heading of acquisition of buildings and works, one of the items under this section of the army.
What I have to place before him are a number of suggestions regarding the Yellow-head route that have been made by the Trans-Canada Highway System Association which has its head office in Edmonton. This organization, representative of urban and

rural communities in British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan, asks, now that the trans-Canada highway location has been definitely established as the south route- with which this organization has no disagreement-and having regard to the tremendous developments that are taking place in northern Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, that in the interests of our national defence the highway between Winnipeg, Saskatoon, through Watrous, Saskatchewan, and thence through Edmonton and by the Yellowhead route to the Pacific coast should be proceeded with and a military defence road built either in co-operation with the provinces or directly by the Department of National Defence. I wish to bring to the attention of the committee and through you, sir, the minister, the representations made by these organizations and in particular a reference that is made in a letter of the 14th of May, 1952, wherein is embodied in short summary form the reason for the need of this highway. In that letter it is stated as follows:
In the case of a global war, northwestern Canada will very likely be one of the battlegrounds. Therefore, the Canadian National Railways must be supplemented-and with all haste-by a military highway in the same manner as the trans-Canada highway will supplement the Canadian Pacific Railway. In fact, northwestern Canada must have all three means of transportation-railways, highways and skyways. Even if the highways are knocked out at times as a rule they can be mended very much quicker and easier than railways.
I need not point out to the minister and the committee the development in northern Saskatchewan and northern Manitoba today in mineral production and in the production of uranium and other basic ores. That development makes northern Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba one of the most strategic places in Canada. Indeed, the minerals being produced and the minerals about to be produced there will I believe, as years go by, forge the shield of freedom everywhere among the freedom loving nations.
I am not going to go into the details of the mineral development nor of the tremendous oil development in the province of Alberta. Suffice it to say that, in so far as oil development is concerned, although only about three or four per cent of the total area available for production has as yet been investigated, the oil potential is twice as great as that in Venezuela, one of the great potential oil fields in the world, and it is within seven billion barrels of that still remaining in the United States of America.
I could mention too the vast supply of uranium and of other basic ores. Today in the event that war should come there is no means of those areas being protected unless
Supply-National Defence there is available a military highway such as is suggested by the Trans-Canada Highway System Association supporting the northern or Yellowhead route. I want to refer particularly to some recent editorials on the subject and also to some speeches made with which I am in agreement.
One of the questions asked is this: Why is it that the federal authority has not been building military highways? And the answer given by the association is:
In case of war there should certainly be a military highway over the Yellowhead route to connect the cities of Winnipeg, Edmonton, Vancouver and Prince Rupert and to supplement the Canadian National Railways.
On the 23rd of February, 1952, the Financial Post contained the following item:
There appears to be some difference of opinion in Ottawa as to what should be the policy on roads. Finance Minister Abbott has implied that they are relatively unimportant in defence and that their financing could not be undertaken at the same time as other defence needs. On the other hand Defence Minister Claxton is said to have admitted the inadequacy of the highway system. High army officers are reported to be alarmed at the state of the nation's roads.
Then it refers in the same issue of the Financial Post to the speech given before the Canadian Construction Association convention by president Robert Drummond in which he declared:
. . . that federal authorities have not fully recognized the vital importance of roads in time of peace or war.
Furthermore, a similar point of view was expressed by C. W. Gilchrist, managing director of the Ontario Good Roads Association who spoke in Toronto. He said:
The federal government's failure to recognize the importance of roads in defence is a policy which may, in the long run, prove hazardous to defence and detrimental to the well-being of the nation.
Again, the Financial Post, issue of February 15, states:
Mr. Gilchrist challenged a statement made by Finance Minister Abbott who had inferred that roads' are relatively unimportant in defence.
Then he goes on to say this:
Mr. Claxton said in the House of Commons that many bridges cannot carry the weight of even a medium tank. High ranking army officers have said that they are alarmed at the state of the nation's roads. Ottawa's plans for the proper use of roads and highway transportation in civil defence are also pitifully inadequate.
Finally, the Edmonton Journal of February 14, 1952, in an editorial dealing with Mr. Gilchrist's remarks, said this:
Of all highway projects none is more vital for Canadian defence that the evergreen highway from Winnipeg to Vancouver, of which the Yellowhead will be the western arm.
I want to add as well some of the views expressed by leaders in western Canada. The commissioner of the North Battleford board

Supply-National Defence of trade, Mr. Wright, set out the facts in a statement that he submitted to the department as to the vital need of this road for national defence. Mr. S. N. MacEachearn, commissioner of the Saskatoon board of trade, summed it up in these words:
Our highway committee has given considerable study recently to the problems of defence as they affect prairie centres. All across Canada citizens are being alerted to the need for instruction in civil defence in case war on a world scale again breaks out. Despite the efforts of leading citizens, many citizens in many of our cities are still apathetic. There seems to be a feeling that, as in the case of the last two world wars, Canada in the event of another outbreak, would still be free from invasion.
Then Mr. MacEachearn goes on to say this:
Canadians are now confronted with the possibility of an attack by a much more formidable enemy than the Japanese and by one at a much closer range. There is a feeling among citizens, particularly of the northern cities of the prairies, that there should be access to the Pacific coast and to Vancouver by a route additional to the ones now in existence. There may be a hurried need for the withdrawal of population from the Pacific coast to the prairies or for the supplying of defence equipment to coast points.
Then he goes on to point out that a highway such as this is necessary in the considered opinion of the Saskatoon board of trade, and the officials of that board of trade, many of whom had distinguished military records. The same applies to the Edmonton chamber of commerce and board of trade, and also to other boards of trade across northern Saskatchewan who are, as I find it, uniformly in support of action being taken in this regard.
A moment ago I mentioned something of the resources in northern Saskatchewan and Alberta as to minerals and oil. Let me also point out how necessary this road would be in connection with some of the defence projects that have recently been established in these four provinces. There is the vast aluminum plant at Kitimat, the estimated cost of which will be $550 million; an oil pipe line to Vancouver from Edmonton via the Yellowhead route, $82 million-the Yellowhead route follows in general the route of this oil pipe line; the chemical plant nine miles east of Edmonton, $54 million; the celanese plant at Prince Rupert, $24 million; the establishment at Edmonton of three new oil refineries, $20 million; the Sherritt-Gordon steel mills at Fort Saskatchewan, $17 million; the bombing site west of Cold Lake, $14 million; the new seaplane base at Lac la Biche, $12 million; a second chemical plant two miles east of Edmonton, $12 million. In addition to that, there is the establishment of the Greisbach barracks and ordnance depot at Namao, ten miles north of Edmonton, at a cost of $15 million. There is the housing


and equipment for 5,000 men at Wainwright camp, at a cost of $15 million.
In other words, there has been a concentration in the northern part of these four western provinces of defence works, without taking into consideration the development and the expansion in connection with the northern radar chain. I make this statement on behalf of these various boards of trade and chambers of commerce in northern Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia. I ask the minister whether or not consideration has been given to the building of this northern route as a military or defence project, having regard to the fact that billions of dollars' worth of necessary defence projects have been established in this area, and that in addition to that almost a billion dollars is now projected to be spent in connection with defence or quasi-defence projects necessary to the preservation of our freedom.


Brooke Claxton: This matter was brought up in the house before, Mr. Chairman, and I answered the question on June 11 of this year. The answer appears at page 3125 of Hansard. I have very little to add to the answer then given. There is no such thing, that I know of, as a military road of the character described by the hon. member. There is a road, and roads are the responsibility of the provincial and municipal governments, with the single exception of the trans-Canada highway where parliament has appropriated money to assist in the project because of its national significance.
The Alaska highway was built as a military project because at that time it served no civilian need and could not be justified on any civilian grounds. For the same reason, that road has been maintained by the Royal Canadian Engineers as a military project, which it is. The Department of National Defence is interested in any improvements, in communications or transportation. It all helps. As for assuming any part of the financial responsibilities we would have to consider that in the light of other defence needs. We cannot do everything we want. We cannot do one-tenth of what we want with the money available, which has to be spaced out in the program. So far that program has not contemplated assistance to provinces or municipalities to do what the provinces or municipalities would do anyway for local and civilian purposes.
Now, I cannot add anything more to that. It is a plain statement of our position. We have not got the money to do it, and it is not our responsibility to do it. If we had more money for defence, we would apply it on more urgent military needs than this one.


Mr. Gibson:: I welcome the statement of the Minister of National Defence, because I know he realizes how important the defences of the west coast are. As the member for Nanaimo has pointed out, he feels that perhaps there has not been the same consideration given to the west coast as there has been to various other parts of this country. I am not going to say that is true. I am very pleased with the development of the great airport at Comox, which has been proceeded with by the minister, as well as the one at Tofino. At this stage, I should like to express my personal appreciation of the assiduous attention the minister has paid to his job. I do not think there is any minister in the cabinet who has had a bigger job or who has worked harder.
The minister mentioned the fact that the road systems of this country are the primary responsibility of the provinces. I believe that all hon. members can agree with that. However, I have often thought that with the tremendous sums of money we are spending in national defence for the establishment of these various projects, it might be well if the minister were to approach the provincial governments to see if there were any joint projects into which they might enter on a basis of mutual profit. I recall a very important road that has been suggested since 1943. As a matter of fact, it would link up the airport at Tofino, which is a defence airport, with the road system of Vancouver Island. The road would be about 30 to 35 miles long, and would cost something over $1 million. I believe the hon. member for Nanaimo was the officer commanding that area at the time it was first contemplated. Whether or not he has changed his mind since then, I still believe that it would be a valuable and important road. I like to think that if such a road were established it would not be entirely a capital investment with no profit, because after all if the minister will look over the record of the cost of transporting equipment, supplies and personnel into the Tofino airport during the war, he will find that it amounted to a substantial figure. One might offset the million dollar expenditure for that road against the continuing cost of moving supplies in and out. I think the minister might find that he had made a good bargain by investing that million dollars.
I should like to point out also that to get personnel and equipment into the Tofino airport during wartime it was necessary to send convoys down there. Fortunately we did not have an instance such as that at Estevan Point 50 miles north, where a Japanese submarine shelled the coast during the war. But actually, to move troops in there with any safety by water, convoys would have to be provided at considerable expense. I would
Supply-National Defence .therefore strongly urge the minister to ask his officials to look into the possibility of establishing that road. After all, not only would it be of great military worth but I think that the province could easily be considered as going in on an economic basis with the minister and assisting him.


James Sinclair: A sound political project.


Mr. Balcer:: Will the minister give us some explanation with regard to this new service college that he intends to establish in Quebec, according to his statement made on Thursday, June 12? Can he tell us what type of school it will be? Is it to be a college or just a military school for French-speaking cadets prior to their entry into Royal Roads or the Royal Military College? Will the minister give us a few more details with regard to the matter?


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to do so. The purpose of this college is to supplement the officer training facilities we already have either at Royal Roads and the Royal Military College at Kingston, the Canadian services colleges, or at the universities and in other plans. In order to meet the particular needs and circumstances of the province of Quebec and of Canadians of French-speaking origin we have decided to establish a Canadian service college at St. Johns in the province of Quebec. It will be located in the present army barracks which are being substantially added to and renovated.
The intention is to open this college, in the first instance, for one year when students having the equivalent of junior matriculation will be brought up to the equivalent of senior matriculation, which is the requirement for entrance to Royal Roads or R.M.C. and is also needed for entrance to most universities in order to take a course having technical qualifications such as that of engineering. If the success of this operation warrants it, it would be our intention to carry on this particular college for a second and third year so as to have it on the same basis as R.M.C. and Royal Roads.
I should add that only a small proportion of the officers who enter the armed forces come from the services colleges. By far the greatest number do not come from college at all, but come in by direct entry, on short service commission or for aircrew in the air force. The second largest group comes through the universities, through the university training plan. It is only the third group that comes from the services colleges. We want the largest possible proportion of men coming from the services colleges to have technical qualifications, particularly as engineers or other classifications requiring

Supply-National Defence similar educational qualifications. That is a main justification for having Canadian services colleges.


Solon Earl Low: What would be the target at the new college?


Brooke Claxton: I should not like to set a target figure because the operation is quite experimental; but on the basis on which we plan to begin, it would be estimated at 100.


Léon Balcer: From the information the minister has given, are we to gather that it is the intention of the department to establish this college on a sort of permanent basis?


Brooke Claxton: It is on a permanent basis.


Léon Balcer: And are we to gather that it will be of the same type as Royal Roads and R.M.C.?


Brooke Claxton: Yes. That is right.


Léon Balcer: Can the minister tell me whether the cadets, if they have a three-year course at St. Johns, will go from there to R.M.C.?


Brooke Claxton: They could go either to R.M.C. or to a university.


Léon Balcer: It would be on the same footing as Royal Roads?


Brooke Claxton: Yes; or the first two years of R.M.C.


Léon Balcer: I should like to get a little bit more information. What will be the contribution of the Quebec universities? In his statement the minister said that this college would be carried on with the co-operation of the two universities. What contribution will they make? Will they supply professors?


Brooke Claxton: That is a matter that is still being worked out. I said that I had discussed this matter with the authorities of the university of Montreal and Laval university and that they had offered their co-operation which I was glad to accept. The department is now working out the detailed curriculum and the organization of the college. Before that is put into effect, we shall seek the views of the appropriate teachers and officials at Laval university and the university of Montreal. We may also go to them for assistance in supplying teachers as well as for advice and support generally in the operation of the college.


Léon Balcer: As I understand it, this will be a French college?


Brooke Claxton: It will be primarily French speaking, but the English language will also be used there.


Mr. Brooks:: The qualification for entrance to St. Johns college would be the same as to R.M.C.?	.


Brooke Claxton: No. It would be either junior matriculation or its equivalent. Generally speaking, it would be a year less than for entrance to R.M.C. or Royal Roads.


Mr. Macdonald (Edmonton East):: In the
first session of this parliament I pointed out the requirements for defence with regard to a highway which was under consideration in this chamber at that time and which was known as the trans-Canada Yellowhead route. In view of the remarks made this afternoon by the hon. member for Lake Centre I take this opportunity to draw the attention of the minister to the views that I expressed at that time. I believe they are as applicable today as they were then. Irrespective of a highway of national importance to serve the needs of the population, I believe that a Yellowhead pass highway would serve and meet the defence needs; I refer to a highway into Edmonton from the east and west of Edmonton through the Yellowhead pass. Were money made available, and consideration given to its early construction, I believe it would meet the defence needs. I am sure the minister is well aware of the situation with regard to representations that have been made from time to time to the effect that a defence highway in and out of Edmonton would serve the needs of the future and would also serve the defence needs for the present. I hope that every consideration will be given to some means of having that highway put over the Yellowhead route. It would serve not only the greatest number of people in western Canada and our defence forces but would be for the greatness of Canada in the years ahead.


Brooke Claxton: I appreciate what the hon. member for Edmonton East has said. I think he was the first to speak to me about this, and also about the highway to connect Edmonton with the Alaska highway. Hon. members from every province have made similar representations at one stage or another about roads in their provinces, and very good cases can be made for them. I can think of several in the maritime provinces, for example, as well as in Newfoundland and British Columbia, in fact in every part of Canada. But these roads are primarily for the use of the provinces and their inhabitants and, as such, are a provincial responsibility. If there are very unusual circumstances, where a highway would not exist and would not be practicable except for federal support, and if such a road were considered essential for military operations, then of course the situation would be different. But we do not know of any such road among those thus far suggested.


Mr.   Baler@: Mr. Chairman, I am in accord with what has been said by the hon. member

for Lake Centre and the hon. member for Edmonton East with respect to the Yellow-head highway from Winnipeg to Edmonton and the northwest. I have spoken on previous occasions with respect to this highway, and I wish to state again, I hope this will be given serious consideration. I contend that highway No. 5 between Winnipeg and Edmonton is the link between the east and the great northwest. The hon. member for Lake Centre has referred to the many millions of dollars invested in the city of Edmonton, but there are one or two spots he may have missed. I would refer again, as I have on other occasions, to the oil fields in the Lloydminster district. There are two refineries there, and a new plant was built last year by the Sidney Roofing Company. There is a great amount of bunker C fuel oil going out of these fields in the Lloydminster area, as well as a large amount of asphalt.
Not only should we look upon this as a defence highway, but I believe it would pay dividends by the future development of the northwestern part of this country, commercially. As I said before, this is the real link. No chain is stronger than its weakest link, and I believe this link would strengthen our defences, as well as bolster the economy between Winnipeg and the vast area around and northwest of Edmonton.


Mr. Fair:: Mr. Chairman, I am interested in this matter. Only a couple of weeks ago when the estimates of the minister in charge of federal highways were before the committee, I made reference to it. At that time I brought the Yellowhead pass route to the attention of the minister, pointing out that it would be important as a defence project, and asked him to bring it to the attention of the Minister of National Defence.
I hope the Minister of National Defence will realize that all defence projects are not necessarily located in this part of the country. This is a big country, and a potential enemy might use roads farther west. The project mentioned by the hon. members for Lake Centre, Edmonton East and The Battle-fords would take care of a problem out there. I wish to associate myself with the remarks of those hon. members.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I have one further reference to make. Apparently the minister has put a complete damper on the possibility of consideration of this matter. Let me point out to him that in the winter of 1950 the chief of the Canadian general staff pointed out, as it is reported, that the Jasper highway and its continuation through the Yellowhead pass to the Pacific coast is of high importance, to quote his words, "to the defence of Canada and the marshalling of 55704-234
Supply-National Defence military forces for the Pacific". The attitude taken by those who apparently know what the necessities are is that the chief of general staff was stating but the simple truth when he referred to the need of this highway as a strategic military highway. That fact has been accentuated by the development I tried to point out.
When the hon. member for The Battle-fords suggested that I had neglected to refer to the oil fields at Lloydminster, perhaps he had not noted that my reference was not to the oil fields of any particular province. I realize that the development at Lloydminster was the first in the northern Saskatchewan or northern Alberta area. It was of course included when I stated that, while only a small portion had as yet been surveyed, the potential oil supply was little less than that of the United States. The information is that at the present time the potential oil supply is about 20 billion barrels, as compared with a potential still existent in the United States of 27 billion barrels. Certainly I had Lloydminster in mind, though I did not specifically mention it. My reference was to oil developments generally.
While the minister has spoken as if this were a provincial matter, my personal belief is that it is a development necessary for our defence. If we are going to develop the northern parts of Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba and British Columbia, then in the absence of an adequate military highway we would find ourselves in a serious situation if -and God forbid-we should ever find ourselves in a war. Certainly in the light of the vast potentialities and developments in that area, there is no comparison between the requests and demands for this highway as compared with the demands for highways in other parts of this country where the development does not serve the potentialities now apparent in those four provinces.


Solon Earl Low: Mr. Chairman, I think we must revise our thinking on this whole matter to make it include the provision of military highways, or a network of highways to serve the forces for purposes of defence, just as we now think of them in terms of serving our civilian needs. The United States has not left the whole matter of strategic highways to the states of that great country. They recognized long ago the necessity for integrating their highway system with their defence problem. In that country the federal government has proceeded not only to build a number of trans-United States highways, but they have gone further and have contributed substantially to a network of secondary highways within the states.

Supply-National Defence
It looks to me as though many of our defence preparations would be rendered useless, or at least greatly minimized in their effectiveness, if we do not have ways of transporting overland some of the equipment that would be required at given places and times. What has been said by hon. members this afternoon ought to be borne in on the consciousness of those in the federal government who are concerned with the defence of the country.
If there is any doubt as to where responsibility lies, then it would seem to me to be wise for the federal authorities to confer with provincial authorities in an attempt to integrate the highways for defence requirements. I believe the hon. member for Lake Centre and others who have spoken this afternoon have made a strong point, and I support them in it.


George Randolph Pearkes: Mr. Chairman, while we are on the subject of roads, I would suggest that the Department of National Defence should confer with the department responsible for the trans-Canada highway with respect to the routing of that highway as it approaches Victoria. I think the Department of National Defence would be vitally interested in the route, as they have many establishments to the west of Victoria and the bottleneck which will exist in the vicinity of Parson's bridge might cause some concern. I suggest that before the government decides to assist the province to that extent the department should confer with the Department of Resources and Development.


Brooke Claxton: I shall be glad to look into that. When the trans-Canada highway was up for consideration I asked the chiefs of staff to advise me if there were any particular places where we should make representations that the routing of the highway might be more desirable from the defence point of view. Representations were made in connection with another location, but the province did not accept the view we put forth. While it will not make a terrific difference in our national defence it would have been preferable the other way.
The situation at Victoria is a local condition which I shall see is looked into. I know there are others, and I do not want to exclude from consideration at this time anything in which hon. members are interested. As I have said before, communications and transportation or anything that is useful in connection with defence will receive consideration.


Mr. Ferrie:: The trans-Canada highway is far from being substantial enough to stand the wear and tear of military movements. The

provinces could not afford to build a highway of that calibre. What we are asking for in western Canada is a highway for the protection of those provinces. We are not asking for a highway for tourist traffic or anything like that; we are asking for a highway which will give us protection in case of invasion from the north. It would be absolutely impossible to move an army with its heavy guns over this highway in the summertime. They just could not be moved through the western provinces. We feel that this highway should be built through the defence organization for the protection of the three western provinces.


The Deputy Chairman:: Shall we pass on to the air force?


Mr. Harkness:: I do not think the next item is air force; it is reserve army. Before we pass on may I ask the minister for an explanation of the item at the bottom of page 300, travelling and removal expenses, $12,100,000 as compared with $7,510,000 last year, and freight, express and cartage, $11,400,000 as compared with $5 million. In view of the fact that the brigade was moved to Europe last year and the additional fact that the other brigade was moved back and forth to Korea I cannot quite understand why there should be these large increases in the travelling and freight items.


Brooke Claxton: It is largely due to the increase in military strength and the amount of transportation that will be needed to replace the brigade in Korea and to provide for rotation in Europe. There will be a steady movement in the build-up of the air force in Europe during the year. The increase in the size of our forces during the year was some 30,000. There is an item for posting, $1,191,115; on cessation of service, transportation for a larger number of officers and men, $965,715; on intake planned throughout th'e year, $602,205. Then there is reinforcement and rotation in connection with the Far Eastern theatre, $2,058,365; by ocean, $990,870; disembarkation leave, $615,120; embarkation leave, $1,674,655. For the 27th Canadian infantry brigade there is an item for leave, $449,495; rail in Europe, $451,795; rail to units in Canada, $481,535.
It can be said that the increase was due partly to the increase in the size of the armed forces and partly to the fact that we have a brigade group in Europe and another in Korea on opposite sides of the world twelve thousand miles from each other.
I should add that while the estimate for last year totalled $7,510,000 it was found necessary to spend $12,808,870 because at the time the estimates were prepared it was anticipated

that we would just have a battalion in Korea, instead of which a brigade group became necessary.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I think the latter explanation is the one that will satisfy me. I could not understand, when the army had increased by less than one-third, why these expenses should be more than doubled.
What the minister said about the air division being built up in Europe would have no effect upon these figures because that would come under air. As far as I can see these figures relate entirely to army. I understand now that the estimate last year was less than was required, the amount spent being close to the figure for this year.
The Depuiy Chairman: Shall we pass on to air force?


Douglas Scott Harkness: The reserve force is the next item.


William Alfred Robinson: When I took the chair I understood that the hon. member for Lake Centre was discussing the northwest highway system, to be found on page 302.


Douglas Scott Harkness: No, he was not; we were dealing with army items.
The Depuiy Chairman: Have we disposed of "Canadian army active force and general"?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Yes.


William Alfred Robinson: Then shall I call "reserve force, including Canadian officers training corps"?


Mr. Catherwood:: Before you do that, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say to the Minister of National Defence that while we do not always approve of some of the expenditures made by his department, so far as the army military vehicle depot at Hagersville, Ontario, is concerned it has been my privilege to visit that establishment on a number of occasions and I think it is operated in a very efficient manner. I should like to ask the minister to visit that vehicle depot some time in order that he may see for himself how well conducted that branch of the department is.


Brooke Claxton: Thank you very much. It is one of the few defence establishments I have not visited.
Reserve force, including Canadian officers training corps.


Douglas Scott Harkness: On page 7 of the white paper recently tabled in the house there is a reference to the reserve army reading as follows:
The reserve army strength has increased by over 13,000 since March, 1948, to a present total of approximately 47,000. Despite the fact that 5,000 members of the reserve army joined the active force in 1951 . . .
Supply-National Defence
I think that statement is likely to create something of a wrong impression because it happens that 1948 was the year in which the strength of the reserve forces, including the army, was at the lowest level that has ever existed. If one looks at the report of the Department of National Defence for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1950 one sees that on page 88 the strength of the reserve and active forces is listed. The strength of the reserve army in 1925-26 was 49,000 and by 1927-28 it had risen to 52,000. From then up to 1935-36 the strength remained in the 50,000's. In 1935-36 there were only 45,000, and just before the war the figure rose to 51,000. During the war of course their number greatly increased, so we will have to leave that out of consideration. In 1945-46, however, the figure was 56,000, in 1946-47 it was 37,000 and in 1947-48 it was 33,591. Then the figure rose until in 1949-50 it was 43,047.
I mention that because I think as the sentence in the white paper stands now it gives a wrong impression as to the way in which the strength of the reserve forces has increased. It gives the general impression that the increase in numbers has been extraordinarily good. I think one of the weaknesses in our entire set-up is the relative weakness of our reserve forces. It has been my opinion ever since I have been a member of the house that not enough attention has been paid to our reserve forces and particularly to increasing their strength so the units will have enough men with whom to carry on adequate training. I do not propose to take up the time of the committee now to go into the various ways in which that might be done, but I should like to urge the minister to use more energetic means than have been used so far to attract recruits into our reserve forces, not only the army which we are discussing at the moment but also the other two services.


Howard Charles Green: Would the minister give the committee an explanation of the present position with regard to that force which was to be known as the Canadian Rangers? As he knows, during the second world war a force was established in British Columbia known as the Pacific Coast Militia Rangers which did excellent work. The units were located in the rural areas of the province where there were no reserve force formations, and I think at one time over 10,000 belonged to the rangers. Their esprit de corps could not have been higher. Most of the members of the force were not of an age to be in the active forces. They were mostly men who understood getting around in the rural areas of the province, and they did a grand job. I do not think the minister will question that fact.

Supply-National Defence
Some years ago it was indicated that this force was to be reconstituted, but very little progress seems to have been made. In fact I am wondering whether the idea has been abandoned. If that is the case I think it is a great mistake, because many of these men who did such good work during the war are prepared to carry on. There are functions for them to fulfil. For example, some of their functions were to assist in repelling any invader, to assist in anti-sabotage precautions, to assist the active forces in the isolated areas of the province, to do coast watching and to report any unusual occurrence. I believe that the numbers allowed for these formations are so small that it is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to establish the units again.
I hope the minister can assure us that the intention is to drive ahead with this plan. There were to be units not only in British Columbia but also in the Northwest Territories and possibly in the Yukon. I believe there is a great work to be done. One aspect of the matter is that these units had a great influence on the young men in the districts. They got young men to join the active forces. They built up morale throughout the districts where the units functioned. Will the minister tell us the present situation with respect to this force?


Brooke Claxton: The force was reconstituted some four years ago under the name Canadian Rangers as an element in the reserve militia, and organization has been pressed forward. It was never the intention to secure a large number of men in any one locality. The object was to cover as far as possible every isolated part of Canada, and there are units in virtually every community in the more isolated sections of the country. I have seen maps showing where they are located, and I would be glad to have one shown to the hon. member from which he would see that there is very wide coverage not only of the coast of British Columbia, and to a lesser degree the Atlantic coast, but also the Yukon, the sub-Arctic, the Arctic and other localities where there are no other forms of organized police or military formations. Our object has not been to build up large units. We thought if that were done the men would get browned off and the effort of organization and maintaining interest would far outweigh the usefulness of the results obtained. On the other hand the object was to secure an organization of key personnel, and I believe that has been done.


Howard Charles Green: How many have been enrolled in the Canadian Rangers?


Brooke Claxton: I have not the figure. The establishment was set at some forty or fifty


companies but no particular strength was set for each company. I will get the figure of enrolments for the hon. member.


Howard Charles Green: I am afraid the minister's approach is not the right one, because where there are just a handful of members in a community you cannot maintain interest. I have seen these maps too, and companies are shown as covering areas hundreds of square miles in extent. It might take a man a week to get from one end of the company area to the other-certainly that is true in British Columbia-and the idea of simply having a total of ten or twenty in a unit in an area of that kind means that the men never get together and there can be no efficient organization whatever. I believe many of the men who rendered such good service in the Rangers during the war are thoroughly discouraged about the picture, and it would be far wiser to set up a unit in a place where there could be enough men to keep up the interest. I hope the minister will look over this whole picture again to see whether some such plan can be worked out.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall reserve force carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.
Royal Canadian air force-regular and general.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister what the policy is in regard to promotions within the R.C.A.F. So he may know what I am getting at perhaps I had better give the background for this question. My understanding is that approximately 400 officers in the R.C.A.F. were promoted effective the 1st January, 1952, and a further 324 were promoted on the 1st June, 1952, making a total during the past year of 725 or thereabouts. I further understand that there are about 125 officers in the R.C.A.F. on the administrative staff who are known as administrative officers. Amongst the 725 promotions that took place there were none for administrative officers of the rank of flight lieutenant and above. In other words there was no promotion to any senior rank during this period for administrative officers. There were approximately 40 flight lieutenants and 25 squadron leaders who had long service but who were passed over for promotion.
I am led to believe that the result of this is that the feeling has become rather widespread amongst administrative officers in the R.C.A.F. that there is no future in that branch of service. I do not think the effect on morale needs any explanation. Officers serving in a branch who think they are going to receive no promotion or very little promotion naturally become disgruntled. I would

think that if a policy of that kind is to be followed, and according to my information that seems to be the case, it would have a very bad effect on the administrative branch of the R.C.A.F. I would like the minister to tell us what is the general policy of promotion within the R.C.A.F. and how a situation of this sort could come about.


Brooke Claxton: This is the first I have heard of it, but I will be glad to look into what the hon. member has said. R.C.A.F. officers are divided into general list officers and administrative officers. Promotions take place in each section according to a scale that has been established, and they are very similar to divisions. It may be that at the time to which the hon. member refers there were no vacancies in the administrative list or that there was greater expansion in the work being done by the part of the R.C.A.F. that had to do with the general list. That might explain the discrepancy to which he refers, but 1 will be glad to look into it.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I would like to say further that my understanding is that there were appointments made to senior administrative posts during this period, but they were not given to officers who were In the administrative branch. These appointments to the senior administrative jobs were given to officers from other branches.


Brooke Claxton: That is not my information, but I will be glad to look into that too.


Mr. Dinsdale:: There are just three things I would like to deal with briefly, if I may bring them up while I am on my feet now.
The first has to do with the question of fighter armament. I have been pursuing that question for some time and all I want to say at the moment is that I thank the minister for the information he has provided in this regard. I had the opportunity of discussing the matter personally with the armament officer, and I am now more or less fully satisfied concerning the present course of action.
The second item I refer to appears on page 302 and is concerned with the possibility of expansion of the air force training scheme. There is a slight increase in the estimate for this year, and I am wondering if it has any connection with information that has been published in air magazines of good standing to the effect that enlargement of training activities is being contemplated, which could possibly mean a further expansion of airport facilities over those already under development. I would appreciate having a statement in that connection.
On my final point I perhaps should wait until we come to the reserve force, as it concerns that force.
Supply-National Defence


William Alfred Robinson: Yes.


Brooke Claxton: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the question of armament I appreciate what the hon. member has said. Just recently I have received some additional information which I will be glad to pass on to him privately.
With regard to the expansion of the air training scheme, we have no present intention of increasing facilities for air training by . adding to the number of airfields. At present some twenty airfields or training establishments are engaged in training under the present air training plan, and they are just about working at their fully planned rates. It will interest hon. members to learn that we are training more men per station than we did during the war, through a more efficient use of both aircraft and training facilities.
What we propose to do is increase the intake just as much as we can with the existing facilities. I have told both the North Atlantic nations and the United Kingdom authorities that if we can train more aircrew for them and if they have more applicants, we will be glad to do so. The main reason for an increase in the expenditure on this account, however, is that we are beginning to approach the peak of the operation.


George Randolph Pearkes: During the past twelve months the recruiting for the women's division of the R.C.A.F. has been opened up. I want to raise a question with regard to the discipline of that force, and I refer particularly to the attitude of the service towards the women in it. I think I can best illustrate my point if I refer to a detailed case, but I would prefer to do so without mentioning the name of the party concerned.
A young lady who was brought up in a Victoria home recently joined the women's division of the R.C.A.F. She was posted to Aylmer, and during her service had written continually to her relatives in Victoria. Suddenly, on April 10, those letters ceased to reach the relatives. After a long period during which their own letters were not replied to and telegrams were not answered, they became very concerned about the whereabouts of this young lady. They therefore communicated with the chaplain on the station at Aylmer, Ontario and on May 17-please note the date, May 17-they received word that this young woman was absent without leave.
In the letter from the commanding officer he advised the relatives that the security police had been notified, and then he went on to use these words:
No further action was taken at this point, as it would be a waste of the taxpayers' money.
3704	HOUSE OF
Supply-National Defence
Then he went on:
The practice of personnel absenting themselves without leave is not unusual in the service, and not too much weight is placed upon these actions,
I hardly like to put on record the words which were used by the relatives of this young woman, after suffering terrible distress during this period of her absence and then being told that further action would be a waste of the taxpayers' money. It certainly caused them terrible heartburnings, because no matter what value the R.C.A.F. might place* on this young woman, her relatives' affection for her certainly could not be assessed in dollars and cents. I quote from the letter from the relatives:
This young woman must be found no matter what the cost may be to the taxpayers. We have paid taxes for more than thirty years, and we demand this protection and consideration. In any case, whatever of suffering or misfortune has overtaken her, we hold the R.C.A.F. responsible. We feel that they have been guilty of gross neglect and brutal indifference regarding the welfare of our dear girl who was placed under their authority.
Personally I can think of no statements which could be made by a commanding officer which would show less consideration or be more brutal than to tell the relatives no further action was being taken because it was a waste of taxpayers' money. I know that is an isolated case; but I do think that, at a time when we are just taking women into the services, if the attitude expressed by that commanding officer is also the policy of the department or the general attitude of the R.C.A.F., then there must be a change in that attitude if the women's division is to attract the right sort of young women. While it may quite possibly be the attitude of some of the services in so far as a man is concerned who goes absent without leave or becomes a deserter, that is good riddance to bad rubbish, that attitude must not exist so far as the women in our services are concerned.
I feel that if a real effort had been made to locate this young woman, who to date has not been located in spite of inquiries I have made personally through the various police forces, surely the first people to communicate with would have been her next of kin. I do feel there may have to be a somewhat different attitude adopted, so far as the women's services are concerned, to that which is normally adopted with regard to a man. A man may go absent without leave and there is probably every justification for not notifying the parents or the next of kin about him; but where a young woman is in the service I cannot help feeling that a different attitude must be adopted. The first action to be taken should be to notify the next of kin that a girl is either absent without leave or cannot be accounted for.
IMr. Pearkes.]

There is just one paragraph in the letter from these people which I think describes the mental anguish that they are suffering. It reads as follows:
Naturally, we fear that some dire calamity has overtaken our girl. She may be in dire need, and any number of dreadful things may have happened to her. This long silence from one who has always been so kind and considerate is very hard to bear and impossible to understand.
I am quite certain the minister will appreciate the anxiety of these people in this case. I am not raising any point about the particular case. I am simply saying that at this time when we are taking women into the services there should be a careful review of the attitude of the services towards the women for whom the senior officers are, in some measure, responsible.


Brooke Claxton: I must say I should think the normal procedure in a case of this kind would be for the unit concerned to get in touch with the home without any delay at all.


George Randolph Pearkes: It was not done.


Brooke Claxton: Apparently it was not done. I know the hon. member will not mind my looking further into the case when he gives me the name privately afterward. I shall be glad to go right to the bottom of it.


George Randolph Pearkes: The minister will recall that I have already given him the name. I did so when I spoke to him about it some three weeks ago.


Brooke Claxton: The letter is certainly most unfortunately worded, when the officer refers to the waste of taxpayers' money. Undoubtedly he was thinking in terms of steps to apprehend the person who was absent without leave. In that respect he was taking the ordinary military attitude, no doubt. I will be glad to look into the case and to follow it up. I might add that I have a close relative now engaged in the university training plan of the R.C.A.F. at London, and reports are that the treatment there is excellent in every way.


Douglas Scott Harkness: 
Brooke Claxton: With regard to the radar stations, the manning is beginning. The commanding officers of the stations are beginning to take up residence, and some men have arrived. The operation is therefore beginning and will be carried on during the summer.
With regard to the ground observer corps, this has recruited about 35,000 personnel. Filter centres are being set up at a number of points which may later be increased. Detachments of regular force personnel are being located at these points to provide a permanent nucleus and to organize and activate the corps in their respective areas. All the top civilian positions have been filled with volunteers. Despite the fact that no national call for volunteers to serve as spotters has yet been made, applications have been received from enough persons to fill about 65 per cent of the positions required at the outset which will number about 75,000. Consideration will be given to the timing and the extent of further expansion.
The main purpose of this corps, as the hon. member knows, is to supplement the R.C.A.F.'s early warning chain by reporting
Supply-National Defence low flying aircraft seen or heard and aircraft in distress. The organization and the control of the corps is the responsibility of R.C.A.F. air defence command which also controls the early warning system. The air defence command is working closely with the other armed forces, R.C.A.F. association, air cadet league and civil defence officials in setting up the corps.
There has also been good co-operation from the provinces and organizations that employ people like fire rangers and the like. Reports from the observer posts which are to be set up would be funnelled in by telephone, telegraph and radio, which would pass on the information to the proper R.C.A.F. authority. This corps is to be organized so that in the event of an emergency it could provide a 24 hour service. But its peacetime activities will be limited to training exercises involving R.C.A.F. aircraft.
This is quite an experiment in a country having the low density of population that Canada has and we are proceeding step by step with the experiment. As the hon. member sees, it is being brought along.


Douglas Scott Harkness: From what the minister said I do not gather that what you might call the preliminary part of this would actually be in existence. Possibly I missed it in the answer of considerable length which he gave. Can he tell us how soon any of this spotter system will be in operation? Might I also point out to the minister that he did not say anything with regard to my question as to how many of the radar stations are to be manned by the United States air force.


Brooke Claxton: As to the number of radar stations, that is information which I do not think it is in the public interest to give. As to the coming into effect of this organization, it is beginning. It has begun. We have a number of premises already belonging to either the Department of National Defence or other government departments and we are leasing a number of others. Equipment will be installed. Arrangements have been made with the Bell Telephone Company for communication, and all that work is proceeding. It is therefore a matter of weeks or a very few months before this system will be in effect.


Douglas Scott Harkness: May I ask the minister whether this spotter system or ground observer corps is being organized entirely by the R.C.A.F. or whether there is a civilian organization of any sort involved.


Brooke Claxton: It is organized by the R.C.A.F. but using civilians both as leaders and spotters.


Douglas Scott Harkness: As personnel?


Brooke Claxton: That is right.
3706	HOUSE OF
Supply-National Defence


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the first heading carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.
Royal Canadian Air Force (Reserve).


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: I am glad to see there is the intention of expanding the use of reserve personnel. In view of the fact that most of our active squadrons are going overseas, I conclude that it is the intention of the department to depend upon auxiliary squadrons to provide the backbone of our home defence. That is, of course, surmise on my part, but it seems to me to be a logical conclusion. Perhaps the minister could make some statement in that regard.
The second division of reserve activity is the Chipmunk training scheme. I understand there is some expansion in the Chipmunk scheme, which operates in connection with flying club organizations. I have had a personal interest in these particular reserve activities, because our flying club in Brandon has been endeavouring to come under the provisions of the scheme. Upon making inquiry I discovered that the reserve potential available in Brandon was insufficient for the inauguration of the Chipmunk plan at the Brandon Flying Club.
Since that time, through the facilities of the air force recruiting depot in Brandon, we have gathered together something like 36 or 38 names, and this information has been submitted to the proper authorities. I believe five additional units are being established, and I am wondering whether the Brandon Flying Club is going to have the opportunity to make use of the air force potential living in the western Manitoba area for participation in this scheme.
Finally, last summer a program was inaugurated which I believe will play an important role in making use of the rich resources of reserve personnel. I refer to the mobilization training scheme, whereby a double banking system will operate. There will be a reserve officer for every active force officer. I understand this program is being continued this year, and its activities enlarged.
I have only one question to ask concerning the scheme. Originally it was restricted to a ten-day period of service. I am wondering if it is the intention to make the period of service flexible according to the ability of the reserve personnel to serve. Further, there is the difficulty of uniforms for reserve personnel serving in this capacity. For some reason or another, since the war either their old uniforms have shrunk or the personnel have stretched. To equip themselves for this


period of service would require an expenditure far beyond the limitations of the temporary pay provided.


Brooke Claxton: First of all, with regard to the use of the reserve formations in providing personnel to operate radar stations, the hon. member is quite correct in what he says. The organization of these reserve formations is proceeding satisfactorily. A considerable number have been added during the last year.
The Chipmunk training scheme was considered by the Royal Flying Club at their annual meeting held here recently, and a recommendation was made by them for the extension of the scheme to several additional communities. I understand this is being considered by the R.C.A.F. and by the Royal Flying Club with a view to making more effective use of the facilities they have so as to bring more communities into the plan. That work is being pressed on.
With respect to the length of training a man may take in a reserve unit, I am informed that in addition to the regular period of ten days there are a number of other possibilities, so that a man who is exceptionally keen or who has special requirements can usually And something which will enable him to take a further period of training.
I have not heard before about the need for the replacement of uniforms, but I shall be glad to look into the matter.
Royal Canadian Air Force-search and rescue. _


A. Earl Catherwood: I should like to ask the minister whether the search for the well-known hockey player Bill Barilko and his companion Dr. Hudson, who disappeared on a routine flight in the James bay area, has been abandoned. Has the department any estimate of the total expenditure involved in the search for these two men? Has the department given consideration to supervision or control of these flights, particularly in remote sections of Canada?


Brooke Claxton: The last matter is one for the Department of Transport and the air transport board, rather than for the R.C.A.F. I believe control is exercised through the licensing of aircraft and pilots. However, for further and more detailed information my hon. friend would have to go to the Department of Transport.
The R.C.A.F. co-ordinates search and rescue operations for all government and civilian services. I shall be glad to look into the particular case he mentioned, and give him full particulars at once.

Contributions towards the military costs of NATO.


George Randolph Pearkes: Are any contributions contemplated in addition to those announced now? I presume there are not.


Brooke Claxton: There are not at the present time. The contribution to be made out of this vote covers what is called the third slice of infrastructure or, as was reported to the house before, the hard core of the third slice of infrastructure. But there will be a fourth slice, and we will be expected to contribute to that on about the same basis as to the previous ones.
Perhaps at this point I should answer one or two points raised by the hon. member in his opening remarks concerning airfields in Europe. As reported at page 3646 of Hansard he said that the danger of the lack of airfields was brought to my attention many months ago by the leader of the opposition who, at the last session of this parliament, called attention to the lack of technical troops in Europe and advocated the provision of engineer units which would assist in the construction of these necessary airfields in France and Germany.
The leader of the opposition did make that suggestion; but I do not think he referred to the danger of our not having airfields. In fact, as I remember the discussion, his observations were almost surprise at my having stated that we would need airfields in Germany.
I would point out that engineers, and particularly service engineers, are the class of men of which perhaps we are in shortest supply in Canada. We have an acute shortage of service engineers in this country. There is no shortage in Europe of civilian tradesmen, including construction engineers and the like. So it would be most uneconomical and wasteful for us to send engineers from Canada to do this job in Europe, particularly as I believe a rather moderate estimate would be that a Canadian would cost about five times as much per day to do the same amount of work as a European. It would be somewhere between five and ten, I would think.
With regard to airfields, our difficulty is to get the North Atlantic Treaty Organization through SHAPE to allocate to us airfields which it would be possible for us to use. That allocation has been made in respect of two airfields in France and two in Germany, but the location of only one, in France, has been formally settled. Arrangements have been made with the French government to handle the construction of that airfield, as was announced in the house some time ago. I understand that these arrangements are capable of being extended to other similar developments in France. In this I think we
Supply-National Defence are a bit ahead of some other countries which have not yet made any arrangements whatever.
The arrangement is quite satisfactory. Under its terms the French government are calling for tenders for the construction of the necessary works at the airfield near Metz. The contractors are taking a good interest, and the matter is being handled in a businesslike fashion. When tenders are received they will be considered by representatives of the French government, of the Department of Defence Production and of the R.C.A.F. working together. The Department of Defence Production and the R.C.A.F. will be represented at all stages and will exercise the closest . possible supervision over the awarding of contracts and the execution of the work.
The situation in Germany is still unsettled. As hon. members know, the state of occupation is being brought to an end and in consequence the operation of the occupation agreement. This is not the best time at which to negotiate either with the British, French and United States authorities or the German government. However, these negotiations are going on steadily and I expect will reach a satisfactory conclusion. The delays for which we were not responsible have postponed the construction and use of these air stations by several months.


George Randolph Pearkes: The minister will appreciate that our suggestions have been made with the idea of assisting him to expend money as economically as possible. There is one matter which I think would come under this heading. We have a staff at SHAPE and in various other countries connected with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Is it necessary for us to continue to maintain a fairly large number of military and naval attaches in the various countries of Europe? Surely all the information regarding the European forces which would be co-operating with Canadians would be available through the various national headquarters connected with SHAPE. I do not want the minister to give a definite answer at this moment, but I do suggest that this matter might be investigated.


Brooke Claxton: I have asked the chiefs of staff to discuss with me the allocation of military attaches at all posts so we can make absolutely certain that the expenditure in any given locality is warranted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
249. To authorize and provide for additional expenditures under the provisions of section 3 of the Defence Appropriation Act. 1950, and supplementary
3708	HOUSE OF
Supply-National Defence
contributions towards the military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, in the amount of $324,000,000 and commitments against future years in the amount of $32,550,000, $324,000,000.
George Randolph Pearkes: I do not think we can allow this item of $324 million to pass without some general explanation.


Brooke Claxton: The 1952-53 program includes -perhaps I should not give the details- radar mark IV; 155 mm. howitzers; walkie-talkies; F-86 airframes-those are for Britain.


George Randolph Pearkes: All these are for other countries?


Brooke Claxton: Yes; also aircrew training, as well as contributions to NATO over and above capacity to pay basis. That is a total of $191 million, of which $47,700,000 is for aircrew training. Then in addition we are going to continue transferring stocks of United Kingdom pattern equipment, $64,979,000. We have additional present pattern equipment of the navy and R.C.A.F. to a value of about $15,-
300,000	which we are offering to various NATO countries. Then in addition we are considering the question of making available a quantity of bombs, shells, rocket launchers, depth charges, projectiles, cartridges and possibly some new minesweepers. These will bring the total to $324 million.
In so far as new equipment is concerned, we are offering to NATO the things we need ourselves in considerable quantity so we will have the advantage of an economic run. With regard to old-type equipment, we are offering things we think we should replace and which we can replace.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General services-[DOT]
250. Grants to military associations, institutes and others, as detailed in the estimates, $227,325.
George Randolph Pearkes: A total of $82,925 is to be spent on rifle associations, of which $60,000, which is a considerable sum, is for the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association. I appreciate that it is nice to encourage this form of military sport and to send a team to take part in the matches at Bisley, but I wonder if in this time of changing conditions in the services, changes in armament and so on, we are justified in expending so much of the taxpayers' money in this direction?


Brooke Claxton: I think the hon. member knows that the character of the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association has changed considerably since the second world war. Now all firing is done with service rifles and service personnel are participating to a much greater extent than before. It is quite interesting to see members of the navy and air force taking part in the competitions. I think it is fair to say that these competitions have been most


successful, especially with regard to the attendance of participants. It is regarded by all three services as being a desirable thing to encourage and consequently it is felt that this grant is justified.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Brooke Claxton: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might have the permission of the committee and, if required, of the house to follow a practice followed during the war. I should like to table and ask permission to print as an appendix to Hansard the list of orders, decorations and medals awarded officers and men of the Canadian forces for gallantry or outstanding service in the Far East.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(For list of awards, see appendix, pages 3741-51.)


DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
527. Departmental administration, $2,217,425.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to make any extended remarks at this time on this item. We have had a veterans affairs committee and we have discussed there matters having to do with the affairs of veterans. The main problem that has concerned veterans for the past year or so has been the question of war veterans allowances. As hon. members well know, this subject was dealt with by the veterans affairs committee and by the house a day or two ago. Whether or not it was dealt with satisfactorily is a question for the veterans themselves across the country to determine. Some of us felt it had not been dealt with very satisfactorily but it is a matter of history now, and I have no intention of saying anything further in that connection.
With respect to the work of the department in general, I would think that by now it must of necessity consist of a more or less routine carrying out of the provisions of the veterans charter which has been in effect for the last five or six years. The veterans of the second world war no doubt are well rehabilitated by now. So far as student veterans at our universities are concerned, I believe the university courses taken by different ex-servicemen are now completed, and I do not think it is out of place to say that I am sure the people of Canada have been well pleased with the splendid record made by the young men who took part in the second world war and who have taken university courses. They have shown that they can more than hold their own with students from civilian walks of life.
Another big rehabilitation problem that has confronted the department and the government has to do with the Veterans Land Act, where the success of the government perhaps

has not been as great as in the case of education. I am not going to dwell on that point at the present time. In general I think the hospitalization of veterans has been very acceptable to the people and that the veterans themselves consider they have been well looked after. There' is one problem that I think concerns us all and is of very great concern to veterans throughout the country.
I refer to the matter of housing. It is not my intention to go into the question to any extent today realizing of course that perhaps it is only a problem of the veterans affairs department to a very small degree. However,
I know the department is very much interested in it, particularly in view of the fact that 60 per cent of the people looking for houses in Canada today are veterans. It might interest hon. members to know that in Canada at the present time there is a shortage of some 700,000 housing units affecting an estimated two million people. This is a very serious situation indeed and one which is of great concern to veterans all across the country.
There are many reasons why the problem is not being solved more readily. One is the great shortage of building materials throughout the country. Another is the increase in the rate of interest for those who have to borrow in order to build homes, and the third is the scarcity of labour. I need not dwell on the necessity of houses. As I said a few moments ago it is a problem of which we are all aware and which we all understand. A house is the foundation of the home, and the home of course is the foundation of our society. In this connection I should like to read a paragraph from a report of the dominion housing committee of the Canadian Legion. The report is issued under the name of T. A. M. Hulse, chairman of the Legion housing committee, and in it there is the following:
It is not an overstatement to point out that the moral basis of our system and our national security even, as well as health and welfare standards, could be influenced adversely by poor housing conditions. One of the leaders in social work study of the Toronto university has said: "Housing is the basic factor which underlies most of the problems which are faced by health and welfare organizations in this country. If we can do something about the housing problem we might actually do a great deal to reduce efforts dealing with problems of public and private welfare. Federal social security programs are now more significant than ever. These will continue to be frustrated in large measure by this basic underlying shortage."
As I said a moment ago, I do not think it is necessary to dwell on this very serious problem. I simply call it emphatically to the attention of the house, the people of the country and the different governments and departments of government throughout
Supply-Veterans Affairs Canada. It is a most serious problem so far as veterans are concerned, and I hope something will be done to improve the situation in the coming year. There are other matters which might be discussed at this time, but we can discuss them as the items come up.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I should like to say a brief word about the patience of the officials of the pensions and war veterans allowances branches. I have given them some pretty bad cases to handle, and I must say they have handled them with outstanding patience and with satisfaction to the veterans and their wives.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
536.	War veterans allowance board-administration, $178,347.
Stanley Howard Knowles: There is one question I would like to ask the minister and if it has been answered in the last day or two he will understand that there have been a lot of committees sitting and we have not been able to keep in touch with everything that has been said in several places.
Would the minister say when the increases in war veterans' allowances authorized in the bill passed a day or two ago will reach the recipients? There are two aspects of this matter. One is: When will their current cheques be at the higher rate. The other is: When will they receive an adjustment cheque covering the retroactivity from January 1, 1952?


Mr. Lapointe:: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend will of course realize that the operation of changing from one rate to a higher rate is quite complicated, particularly when the increase is made retroactive. This particular increase also brings back under war veterans allowance people who were not covered from the 1st of January to date because of their income which barred them. Because of the complication of the operation it is not feasible for the cheques with the increase and the adjustment to be issued before August. The August cheque forwarded will contain the increase and the adjustment retroactive to January 1, 1952, which means that the July cheque will be at the former rate.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In other words, the intention is to cover both points in the one cheque, the current increases and the retroactive adjustments?


Hugues Lapointe: In the one cheque.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That will be the cheque the veteran receives at the end of August?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes.
3710	HOUSE OF
Supply-Veterans Affairs Mr. Knowles: Can the minister say whether it is the hope of his officials that all cases will be covered by that August cheque?


Hugues Lapointe: It is expected that all cases will be covered by the August cheques.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
537.	Veterans insurance, $97,024.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: I would like to ask a question here. I note that the expense for item 537 amounts to $97,024. I would like to ask the minister if any part of the premium paid for war veterans' insurance goes to pay expenses in connection with war veterans' insurance and, at the same time, I would like to ask what is the amount in the fund at the present time, how much was paid out this year, and also the number of policies in force.


Hugues Lapointe: The answer to the first question, Mr. Chairman, is that no expenses are taken from the premiums. The amount in the fund, the balance as at the 31st March, 1952, was $10,124,989.32.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How much was paid out last year?


Hugues Lapointe: The amount paid out in 1951-52 was $531,947.66. There are 32,142* policies in force.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I assume it would be the expectation of the department that as time goes on the yearly amount which must be paid out would be more than it is at present; that is, as the veterans become older?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, but not for some time yet.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The department is of course endeavouring to build up a large fund for that emergency later on?


Hugues Lapointe: The fund is under the control of the Department of Finance and is on an actuarial basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions and other benefits-
538.	Pensions for disability and death, including pensions granted under the authority of the civilian government employees (war) compensation order p.C. 45/8848 of 22nd November, 1944, which shall be subject to the Pension Act, $125,546,000.
Mr. Cardiff:: I am not complaining, but I would like to ask the minister if he can explain the reason for the $26 million odd increase in this item.


Mr. Lapoinie:: The 33J per cent increase which was made in the basic rate of pension in the fall of 1951.
See corrected, figure on page 3720.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I would like to ask the minister a question with reference to world war I veterans. Is there a decrease each year, quite a large decrease, in the number of world war I veterans receiving pensions?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes. There is a small and steady decrease every year, just as there is at the same time a small and steady increase in world war II veterans.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: What would be the percentage?


Hugues Lapointe: Perhaps my hon. friend will get the information he wants from this answer. As of 31st March, 1951, there were 66,001 disability pensioners and 16,141 dependents; that is for world war I. On the 31st of March, 1952, there were 64,438 disability pensioners and 15,863 dependents. That is the normal decrease from year to year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
540. War veterans allowances, $22,505,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: In connection with this item, I notice it is practically the same as last year. This does not include the proposed increase in veterans allowances as passed by the house the other day?


Hugues Lapointe: No. There is a special vote of $5,850,000 in the supplementary estimates to cover those increases.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask one other question with respect to the results of the amendments to the War Veterans Allowance Act. In the case of a war veterans allowance recipient who was receiving the allowance prior to January 1, 1952, and who had his allowance completely withdrawn because of the subsequent receipt of old age security, will it be necessary for that former recipient of war veterans allowance to apply for reinstatement because of the increase in the allowance, or will that be dealt with automatically?


Hugues Lapointe: No, it will be dealt with automatically. Every one of these cases will be reviewed, and if the former recipient now qualifies he will receive his cheque automatically in August.


Mr. Gillis:: I should like to ask the minister a question. When the recipient of war veterans allowance enters an institution and becomes a veterans care case he is now allowed $10 a month for comforts. Will the increase from $40 to $50 per month affect that $10 per month?


Arthur-Joseph Lapointe: No, the amount of the comfort allowance bears no relationship to the payment of the war veterans allowance. It is

Supply-Veterans Affairs
based on the minimum price of the various allowance. It only applies to world war I articles which make up those comforts, veterans, who are mostly taken care of under cigarettes and so on.	other legislation.


Clarence Gillis: When he was receiving $40 a month and was taken into the institution, he received his care for $30 a month and $10 went to him.


Hugues Lapointe: Actually it is $7.


Clarence Gillis: That is worse. Now that the allowance has been increased to $50, is it the intention to still give him that $10 a month? If he were outside he would be entitled to an increase in the allowance, so you are really going to increase the cost of maintenance and care in the institution. I think he is entitled to that extra $10 a month.


Hugues Lapointe: This comfort allowance of $7 is payable to patients under class 5A, 5B and class 6 treatment. It has no relationship whatever to the war veterans allowance. These people are not necessarily under war veterans allowance.


Clarence Gillis: But many of them are.


Hugues Lapointe: Anyone who goes in for treatment under those classes is entitled to that $7.


Clarence Gillis: It very definitely has a relationship, Mr. Chairman. A person who is taken in under 5A or 5B, whichever it is, and who is in receipt of war veterans allowance while outside would be drawing $40 a month war veterans allowance. Then he enters an institution and the war veterans allowance is discontinued, but he is permitted to receive $7. The minister says that is for comforts. If that person were outside, or if he left the institution, he would go back on war veterans allowance. Under the new schedule he receives $50 per month, and this payment for comforts is definitely related to the war veterans allowance. I do not want to argue with the minister, but it has been a sore spot for some time. It is a small amount that is allowed the inmate of an institution for comforts and so forth. I would ask the minister to look at that angle to see if an adjustment cannot be made. I think the amount allowed is too small.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
542. Unemployment assistance, $25,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: I wish to ask the minister the reason for the reduction to $25,000 in this item this year.


Hugues Lapointe: It is simply due to the fact that the demand on this fund has decreased considerably due to many of these people being able to qualify under war veterans


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
543. Hospital and other allowances, $3,225,000.
Mr.   Baler@: With respect to war veterans who are receiving allowances on entering a hospital, is the amount of deduction while in hospital decided upon an individual basis or is there a flat rate right across the board?


Hugues Lapointe: It is, as a rule, considered on an individual basis, and the circumstances are looked into. In a case where a man has many dependents, that is taken into consideration.


Mr. Bryce:: I should like to see if the minister can clear up a point for me. I received a return from him the other day showing that the ward maids in the Deer Lodge hospital were receiving $60 a month, while in other hospitals they were receiving $120 a month. There may be discrepancies due to wage rates and labour conditions in different parts of the country, but I do not think they should amount to $60. Can the minister explain how that is?


Hugues Lapointe: The rates paid to these particular employees are generally the prevailing rates in the locality, and are given to us by the Department of Labour following a survey by that department.


William Scottie Bryce: I am going to appeal to the minister to review it. Surely, one woman in British Columbia is not worth $60 more than one woman in Winnipeg?


Mr. Cruickshank:: Sure, she is.


Hugues Lapointe: I would not like to debate the point with the hon. member.


William Scottie Bryce: I think it is an insult to the people of Winnipeg to offer them $60 when $120 is being paid in British Columbia. It is so late in the session that I cannot do anything about it, but I could not believe that it was true until I received the return from the minister. Since it is true, I think the minister should look into the matter right away and have something done about it.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Have them all moved to British Columbia.


William Scottie Bryce: I think you are going to have an awful lot on your hands in British Columbia, so you had better keep quiet.
I should like to ask the minister another question about the chauffeurs, the fellows who drive the ambulances. Recently, they received an increase of $8. Now, was that $8 a raise in wages or was it in lieu of not getting any uniforms?

Supply-Veterans Affairs


Hugues Lapointe: I am informed it was a
straight salary increase.


William Scottie Bryce: What about the uniforms? They do not get any clothes now, so they should be entitled to a raise in their wages.


Hugues Lapointe: I will look into this matter. I am afraid I am not too familiar as to what clothes a chauffeur wears when he drives an ambulance. I shall be glad to look into the matter.


William Scottie Bryce: As long as I have the assurance from the minister that he will look into the matter and straighten it out, I am satisfied.
I	am not going to say anything more about it. In any event the minister must agree with me that Winnipeg will not sit down and take that sort of treatment.


Mr. Mutch:: The hon. member who has just been speaking knows very well that both these questions have been under review at Winnipeg as well as here for the past two months, in conjunction with the Department of Labour. A decision has not been given, but it will be given in due course.


William Scottie Bryce: I thank the parliamentary assistant. I know he told me that it was being reviewed, but so long a time has been taken in reviewing the matter that the men can go hungry.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: I can explain anything but that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
548.	To provide for the cost of administration of Veterans Land Act; soldier settlement and British family settlement, $4,780,354.
Mr. Quelch:: I should like to ask the minister how many veterans of world war
II	had to give up their farms for one reason or another, and how many veterans of world war II are in arrears of payment under the Veterans Land Act.


Hugues Lapointe: I am afraid I have not the figures just at hand. I wonder if the question might be allowed to stand for the moment; I will give him an answer at eight o'clock.


Victor Quelch: That will be fine.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: With regard to British family settlement, how many families come under this item? I might also ask why British family settlement is under the Veterans Land Act or under the veterans affairs department.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: It was under the soldier settlement.


Hugues Lapointe: It was under the old soldier settlement board.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: That does not explain why it was under the soldier settlement board.


Hugues Lapointe: As of March 31, 1952, there were still outstanding 389 veterans and 413 civilians settled under this particular scheme.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Why did it come under the soldier settlement board?


Hugues Lapointe: Right from the start of the scheme it was administered by the director of soldier settlement.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: That is not the British settlement scheme in the province of New Brunswick, is it? There was one scheme there.


Hugues Lapointe: There are two different schemes, but both are administered by the department. The other scheme is the one I imagine my hon. friend has in mind, namely the New Brunswick family scheme.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Yes.


Hugues Lapointe: One other reason the matter comes under this department is this. My hon. friend will recall that last year there was in the estimates an item to buy out the United Kingdom equity in these properties. That item was in our departmental estimates last year. The whole thing is now administered by us.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Is there an increase in the number of cases coming before this board?


Hugues Lapointe: That is applications for settlement under the Veterans Land Act?


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Yes.


Hugues Lapointe: The numbers are gradually decreasing.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: But your administrative costs are increasing. Your administration costs are up by $180,000.


Hugues Lapointe: The increase in administration costs reflects the increase in salaries which took place during this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
549.	To provide for the upkeep of property, Veterans Land Act, including engineering and other investigational planning expenses that do not add tangible value to real property; taxes, insurance and maintenance of public utilities, $77,000.
William Scottie Bryce: Will the minister make a statement as to what progress is being made with regard to sewage disposal in the Charleswood settlement? I think something is being done. The parliamentary assistant is quite well aware of what is going on.


Hugues Lapointe: I will ask my parliamentary assistant, who is familiar with this particulai problem, to answer the question.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: Following the difficulties which took place in the Charleswood settlement and in St. Vital last spring as a result of freezing of the septic field, an undertaking was given by the department to make a survey, once conditions had been restored to normal, with a view to discovering whether or not the fields were properly laid, whether they had been properly maintained, and what caused the difficulty; and to determine what it might be possible to do to take care of it.
Within ten days I had a report by telephone that the examinations in those fields were taking place. I believe they began in Charleswood and were then going on to St. Vital. I am not certain as to which place they began, but that examination is in the process of being made. I am told that the fields which are being examined are test fields suggested by the tenants themselves- that is, by the occupants of the houses themselves-and that they are proceeding at the present time. We are awaiting a final report as to what the discoveries were. I believe the original commitment was to test five of these fields in each district in the presence of and in circumstances suitable and agreeable to the occupants of the houses. That is proceeding and we are anticipating a report shortly.


William Scottie Bryce: Is it the case that the department has employed Mr. Scott, the water engineer who laid out the system to begin with, to give advice?


Leslie Alexander Mutch: At the time we committed ourselves to making an examination, the first suggestion which was made by the department as to officials to give expert opinion on it was as the result of a question by some of the veterans concerned. They wrote to the department-as a matter of fact, they wrote to me-and asked whether it would be possible to secure the services of Mr. Scott who, as the hon. member knows, is retired. He was the former water district engineer and the man whose advice was sought in the first instance as being an expert in these matters. I consulted officials of the department and the minister, and consent was given to employing Mr. Scott if he was available. My understanding is that at the request of the veterans themselves he is being called in as consultant to pass judgment upon the efficiency or otherwise of the fields as laid out.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Six o'clock.


William Scottie Bryce: Would the minister make the evidence available?
Supply-Veterans Affairs Mr. Mulch: When the report is available I will be glad to make it known.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: I think item 548 stood at six o'clock and there was a question or two I wanted to ask. Can the minister state how many veterans are settled under the Veterans Land Act and what the situation is with reference to keeping up payments?


Leslie Alexander Mutch: Is that farming, or is the hon. member including small holdings?


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Including small holdings. How many have kept up their payments in full; how many have kept up their payments in part and how many have made no payments at all during the past year?


Leslie Alexander Mutch: I doubt if we have the information in that form, but we can give you the number settled under the Veterans Land Act and the number in arrears.


Hugues Lapointe: There were 75,340 veterans who qualified; there were 55,464 who were approved for assistance, and there were 55,121 for whom disbursements have been made.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Have the payments been satisfactory? Perhaps the minister cannot give full details, but he could give some idea of the situation.


Hugues Lapointe: In full-time farming there were 4,023 in arrears out of 24,155 who have been settled.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Have any abandoned their holdings at all?


Hugues Lapointe: There were 37 veterans in full-time farming and 38 with small holdings whose cases have been referred to the provincial advisory board for consent to the recession of their contracts, as of March 31, 1952.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I notice that on page 589 a large increase in the number of settlement officers, grade 2, is indicated. There are now 223 settlement officers as opposed to 64 in the previous year, which seems to be an increase of three and a half times.


Hugues Lapointe: As will be noted on page 590, the over-all picture shows a decrease. The present total is 1,198 as compared to 1,209 last year. With respect to settlement officers, grade 2, it is due to a reclassification of these employees by the civil service commission. Similarly a little lower down on

Supply-Veterans Affairs the page under the heading "settlement supervisors, Veterans Land Act" there is a decrease from 209 to 46.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I noticed that, and I also noticed they were all grade 1 with a salary of $2,436 to $3,240. In this case they were grade 2 with a salary of $3,240 to $3,888. It does seem like quite a wholesale promotion.


Hugues Lapointe: The reason is that we have been endeavouring to get the best possible calibre of employee. The great majority of these employees are university graduates who have specialized in agriculture, and naturally we have to pay to get the better class of man.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: They were already employed?


Hugues Lapointe: Not all of them, though most of them were. I am informed that many were threatening to leave the service unless a reclassification was made.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
550.	To provide for the payment of grants to veterans settled on provincial lands in accordance with agreements with provincial governments under section 35 of the Veterans Land Act, 1942, as amended, and payment of grants to veterans settled on dominion lands, in accordance with an agreement with the Minister of Resources and Development under section 35 of the Veterans Land Act, 1942, as amended, $600,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: I should like to ask the minister where these settlements are in the different provinces.


Hugues Lapointe: The total number of veterans settled on these lands is 4,655, made up as follows: British Columbia, 146; Alberta, 2,056; Saskatchewan, 1,541; Manitoba, 422; 84 in eastern Ontario; 333 in Quebec and 73 in the maritime provinces.


Victor Quelch: Are these all on provincial lands?


Hugues Lapointe: Provincial lands and dominion lands.


Victor Quelch: In what form are the dominion lands?


Hugues Lapointe: There are some in Yukon, some in Banff national park and some at Whitehorse.


Mr. Herridge:: Under this item I should like to draw the minister's attention to the fact, which of course he knows, that British Columbia is being developed at a very rapid rate. Provincial lands close to settlements are getting scarcer and scarcer. I suggest that his department should make a survey of the provincial lands available in British Columbia within a reasonable distance of small communities, get in touch with the provincial lands department and ask them to reserve any lands that are thought suitable. I find

that more and more men are becoming aware of the opportunities for settlement on provincial lands, but then they find they are too late because somebody else has bought the land.


Hugues Lapointe: I will be very glad to keep my hon. friend's suggestion in mind.


Mr. Fraser:: I do not know whether I am on the right item, but I should like to ask the minister whether he has considered further a question I have asked in the past regarding veterans whose small holdings are taken into cities. Will they be allowed to sell part of their property in order to save taxes? It is pretty hard on a man when his property is taken into a city, because taxes have increased so much.


Hugues Lapointe: There has been no final decision but the matter is being explored very actively at the present time, and there will probably be an announcement of policy in a short time.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am very glad to hear that because in every city across the country veterans are in the same position, and they are very much affected by the burden of heavy taxes.


Victor Quelch: What are the veterans doing who have settled in the past on these lands? Are they small holdings? I take it they would not be farming?


Hugues Lapointe: They are small holdings.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: The minister mentioned small holdings. I do not think I am quite in order in saying this, but I have been so busy I have had to be out of the house all day. In the interior of British Columbia it is very difficult for men to find two acres or more in the form of small holdings on which to settle. As the minister knows there has been considerable demand for the return to the requirement of only half an acre. It is a serious matter. Land is scarce, and I wish the minister would see that the regulation is changed so these veterans may settle on a small holding of half an acre or a little more. It is a very serious matter in my constituency. Over 250 veterans were denied the opportunity to settle on small holdings because of the increase from half an acre.


William Joseph Browne: Are any of
these payments made in Newfoundland?


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, there are some settlements in Newfoundland. Some of the veterans devote their full time to their holdings, and there are some with small holdings who are engaged in commercial fishing. There are some settled on provincial lands also.


Mr. Goode:: I wish to support the hon. member for Kootenay West. I think he has brought up a very important point. No doubt the minister has been giving a lot of consideration to it. British Columbia is peculiar-


Alfred Johnson Brooks: In many ways.


Tom Goode: -in the nature of its territory, and I think we have a different situation from any other province in Canada. The hon. member for Kootenay West has talked about the interior of British Columbia. What he has said is not only applicable to the interior but also to the lower mainland including my constituency of Burnaby-Rich-mond. We have a large number of veterans there who wish to settle on the land but the acreage requirement is too high. I support the hon. member for Kootenay West in bringing this matter to the minister's attention.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister given any consideration to these suggestions? I think the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond is quite right about the situation on the lower mainland of British Columbia.


Hugues Lapointe: I am sorry, I did not follow my hon. friend's question. What was it exactly?


Howard Charles Green: Has the department given consideration to the suggestions advanced by the hon. member for Burnaby-Richmond? I believe he has pictured a condition which certainly exists on the lower mainland of British Columbia.


Hugues Lapointe: We have considered the situation. Certain representations have been made at various times. I will keep in mind particularly the circumstances mentioned by the previous speakers with respect to British Columbia.


Tom Goode: May I bring an example to the minister's attention and put a direct question to him. I do not expect him to answer now but I know he will consider it. Would the minister please investigate the situation so far as the riding of Burnaby-Richmond is concerned? There is a large amount of land which is mainly settled, but there are a lot of veterans in that part of the country who want small holdings. I should like to take this opportunity to ask the minister to have an investigation made by his officials and to let me have the answer as soon as possible.


Mr. Laing:: Has the situation in this regard changed? I recall that close to Vancouver the department bought four or five farms, only one of which was developed. The other farms were resold, and that took place in
Supply-Veterans Affairs recent years. I assume if there had been a demand at that time the land would have been subdivided. Were the veterans requesting small holdings at that time? Those farms were sold. The department did not develop them.


Hugues Lapointe: As to the instance mentioned by my hon. friend, I am informed that the reason the project was not developed was that it was found it would have been uneconomical to do so in view of the high cost of providing the necessary services.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
552. To provide for the reduction of indebtedness to the director of soldier settlement of a settler under the Soldier Settlement Act, in respect of a property in his possession, the title of which is held by the director, by an amount which will reduce his indebtedness to an amount in keeping with the productive capacity of the property and his ability to repay his indebtedness to the director, under regulations approved by the governor in council, $150,000.
Robert Fair: Before this item is carried may I ask the minister a question. What is the position of the old soldier settlers under this item? He will remember that about thirty-three years ago there was an act to provide for the settlement of farmers and others, many of whom were totally unqualified to settle on the land, and I think the object then was to get those people out of the towns and cities. Some fifteen years ago I started a campaign to get those fellows clear title because I felt they had all paid in full at that time. Only three years ago did we get some action, and an amount of $150,000 was placed in the estimates. That has appeared annually so the people who were most in need could get their accounts straightened out. That has been some little relief and I see that a similar amount is in the estimates for this year.
In my opinion these accounts are not being cleared up fast enough, and I would like to know the position of these people today. The last figure I got, some five or six months ago, showed that they still owed an average of over $1,100 each. At that rate they will all be dead, and in some cases their families as well, before the estates get clear title.


Hugues Lapointe: Mr. Chairman, at the time this scheme of debt reduction was started, and I think the first estimate was in 1948, there were 2,637 active soldier settlement accounts with a total debt of $2,842,534.30 and an average debt of $1,077.94. As of March 31, 1952, there were 746 accounts with a total debt of $799,729.69, so my hon. friend can see that nearly three-quarters of the accounts which existed when we started this scheme in 1948 have now been closed. The average debt of the 746 accounts which now remain is $1,072.02. Included in the 746 accounts are

Supply-Veterans Affairs 225 in which reductions to a total of $108,821.77 have been approved on a time basis not exceeding three years. This leaves 521 of the original 2,637 whose accounts have not been adjusted. My hon. friend can see that there has been considerable steady progress in the settlement of these accounts.


Robert Fair: Mr. Chairman, it may be rather remarkable that the average debt in 1948 was $1,077.94 and at the end of last March that average debt had only been reduced by $5.92. I think we are still getting a certain number of these people who are owing a lot of money to the department. From the last figure of $1,072.02 it is going to take a long time to get the debt squared up. Instead of $150,000 I would like to see an amount to take care of the whole thing and let these people get clear once and for all. They have done their bit for the country and now I think it is time for the country to do its bit for them.


Hugues Lapointe: Mr. Chairman, I know my hon. friend does not do it intentionally but the way he puts it does not give a true picture of the situation. It is true that the average debt has been reduced by only a few dollars, but I mentioned that of the 2,637 accounts which existed when we started this scheme more than three-quarters have been closed and settled. There are only 521 with whom there have not been adjustments. Their debt has not been reduced because these people have not paid.
It is all very well to say we would like to have just one large amount in the estimates and close up these books. However, in all fairness to all the other settlers who have met their obligations, and in fairness to all the veterans settled under the Veterans Land Act who meet their obligations, when there are cases of these older settlers who are quite capable of paying but who have refused to do so I hardly think it would be the proper thing to close out their account.
I know they are not in the majority but there are cases which I can quote to my hon. friend. There is one settler who, besides the land on which he was originally settled, owns land which is fully paid for and is valued at $17,000. He owns $15,000 worth of machinery which is fully paid for; and when he came to the supervisor and asked for an adjustment of his debt which was under $1,000 he was refused. But he walked out and bought a new car, and informed the supervisor that he was going away for a three-month holiday. I hardly think the parliament of Canada should be asked to close out that account.


Robert Fair: It is rather a funny case for the minister to put up.
[Mr. Lapointe.3


Hugues Lapointe: All right; I can quote you some more. I mentioned that these might be extreme cases but I think the mere fact that cases like that do exist justifies the procedure we have been following over the last five years which permits the reduction of debt and a grant of full title to the men who deserve it and who are trying to do their best to meet their obligations.


Robert Fair: We have odd cases such as the minister has quoted, but I can point out others throughout the country-


Mr. Sinnolt:: Tell us who they are.


Robert Fair: It seems the wind is blowing through and there does not seem to be anything to stop it over by the curtains.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


Robert Fair: I think the minister might take this matter into consideration and clean up the mess. It has been a mess. We had the gentleman in charge of the department when this scheme was set up say it was a hastily improvised scheme to get these people out on the land. Having an admission like that from a gentleman who was there for a number of years prompts me to suggest that we might review the matter again.


Hugues Lapointe: I might add that when we are considering the supplementary estimates after the main estimates are through there is one vote, a dollar vote, covering this subject. At that time I will explain why the vote is there and my hon. friend will realize that we are even broadening the policy to permit more generous settlement of these cases.


Robert Fair: I am glad to hear that.


George Randolph Pearkes: Might I ask the minister what is the basis of payment. Does the department put up one dollar for every dollar the veteran pays, or just what is the scheme?


Hugues Lapointe: The debt reductions have averaged between 40 and 50 per cent. As a matter of fact of the amounts which have been reduced, and which I mentioned before, 45-56 per cent has been paid by the department and 54-44 per cent by the settler.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The soldier has to pay something himself.


Hugues Lapointe: Yes, we reduce his debt according to the new terms over a period of three years.


Arthur Laing: Might I ask what the terms of this indebtedness are? In the rather extraordinary case recited by the minister, has

the department no means of collecting such a debt? It would seem to me that would be the logical thing to do.


Hugues Lapointe: There are the normal legal steps that could be taken, but I do not think it has ever been done. I can just imagine what the reaction would be if at any time, even in extreme cases such as the one I mentioned, one of these men was evicted from his farm.


Arthur Laing: Is there any more fairness in allowing this debt to pile up than there is in writing it off?


Hugues Lapointe: We keep the title.


Robert Fair: In the past there have been many cases where old men have been put off their land and other cases where settlers were compelled to sign quit-claim deeds. At that time the department had as director a Mr. Murchison who would have been much more in place working for some mortgage company instead of administering a soldier settlement scheme. I believe many more settlers would have been put off their farms if their treatment had not been exposed in this house.


Hugues Lapointe: There may have been such cases in the past, but there have been no evictions under the new scheme.


Robert Fair: I should like the minister to
tell us the cost of administration of this particular project during the past year.


Hugues Lapointe: Unfortunately it is not kept separately, but is part of the whole cost of administration under the Veterans Land Act.


Mr. Wylie:: I want to support what the hon. member for Battle River has said. I think the cost of administration of this work should be kept separate. The case to which reference has been made is one of the extreme cases, and I know of many cases in the dried-out areas where the farmer cannot pay but the debt is still charged up against him. I am sure that the minister cannot refer to a case in the southeastern area of Alberta in which the same circumstances apply as the case to which he referred.
It does seem to me this is another matter that could be disposed of very easily. This is not the first time I have spoken in this house about old debts. The other evening I mentioned the subject in connection with another matter, but I know I would be out of order if I referred to it. Just because certain of these people are able to pay their debts does not mean everyone is able to do that. It depends entirely upon the circumstances, not only in the west but in the east as well. I think it is about time this matter
Supply-Veterans Affairs was given serious consideration and these old debts were cancelled.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Terminable services-
555. Post discharge rehabilitation benefits, including the training of merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners, $3,677,500.
Mr. McLure:: In this item what is meant by the training of merchant seamen-I know what that means-and salt water fishermen pensioners? What training and educational benefits have been given to salt water fishermen, and what fishermen in Prince Edward Island have had any benefit from that item?


Hugues Lapointe: I could not tell the hon. member how many Prince Edward Island men are affected by this vote, but it covers vocational training for these people. I am informed that at the present time we only have 190 veterans left in vocational training.


William Joseph Browne: Are any
veterans in Newfoundland receiving benefits from this vote?


Hugues Lapointe: I am not sure if I have the information broken down by provinces. I shall look it up.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Under this section I should like to refer to a matter that has come to my attention on several occasions recently. It concerns the administration of the army benevolent fund. I trust I am in order in mentioning it here, because it is not mentioned elsewhere specifically.


Leslie Alexander Mutch: It is not administered by the department, so you will not find it in the estimates.


Hugues Lapointe: The army benevolent fund operates under an act which was amended the other day. It is administered by a voluntary board which reports through the Minister of Veterans Affairs to parliament. The annual report is tabled in this house, but the department has nothing to do with the administration of the fund.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Under what item or circumstances could one refer to the army benevolent fund?


Hugues Lapointe: You mean in the house?


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Yes.


Hugues Lapointe: Well, there was a bill that came up the other day, and upon which there was a short debate.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps the minister could answer the question.


Hugues Lapointe: I would suggest that it might come under the item of administration, since
3718	HOUSE OF
Supply-Veterans Affairs the board must report to the minister. However, I have no objection if the hon. member wants to put a question.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Perhaps the hon. member could ask a question and the minister will see if he can reply.


Walter Gilbert Dinsdale: Briefly, the problem is this. Under the present set-up of the act only veterans of world war II are covered by the army benevolent fund. I understand that this is due to the fact the fund was created from amounts of money that were accumulated during world war II. The problem arises, however, with the increasing number of Korean veterans who are applying for benefits under this act. Those responsible for administering the fund must inform these Korean veterans that they are not eligible.
Upon making inquiries I find that the air force benevolent fund and the navy benevolent fund, which I understand are privately operated, have overcome the difficulty and apply the same treatment to Korean veterans as to veterans of world war II. They do it by a simple formula, in that they receive one per cent of all canteen funds. The information I have is that the only way the present anomalies in the army benevolent fund can be remedied is by government action. I am assured that the officers administering the fund are willing to take on this added responsibility, if there were a means whereby they could do so.


Hugues Lapointe: The hon. member is quite right in saying that only world war II veterans can benefit from the army benevolent fund. This fund was made up, as the hon. member knows, from regimental and canteen funds during world war II. He is also quite right in saying that the only manner in which the Korean veterans could be permitted to benefit from the fund would be through an act of parliament, because the board must necessarily administer the fund according to the act and the benefits are extended only to world war II veterans.
Each year the board makes recommendations to the minister, and as a result of those recommendations this year we had certain amendments to the act. I shall be pleased to discuss with the members of the board any further extensions which they might think appropriate.
While I am on my feet I might also answer the question asked by the hon. member for St. John's West with regard to the number of Newfoundland veterans who might have received vocational training. I am informed that at the time of union we took over sixty-two veteran trainees of Newfoundland who


had not yet completed their rehabilitation training. Of these, seventeen were being trained in Newfoundland, forty in other provinces, three in the United States, and the remaining two in the United Kingdom. Of these, sixty were being trained in universities and two in vocational courses.


William Joseph Browne: Are they all finished now?


Hugues Lapointe: It is exceedingly difficult to say. I would not have that information. I would venture to say that most 'of the university trainees would be finished by now.


Howard Charles Green: This item covers post-discharge rehabilitation benefits. For some time there has been a considerable amount of veteran opinion in favour of some action being taken to extend benefits of this type to the children of those men who lost their lives in the service of the country. For example, at the recent dominion convention of the Canadian Legion two resolutions dealing with this subject were passed. The first one read:
Whereas knowledge of resulting hardships encountered by widows and children of veterans of world war II who made the supreme sacrifice, when the age limit is reached and no further allowances are paid on behalf of the dependent children; and
Whereas it is desirable that the children be given an opportunity to continue their education and where the widow may desire to build a home or purchase new furniture, etc., for the benefit of her children:
Therefore be it resolved that all such entitlement and credits, etc., which the veteran would have received had he been spared to return be made available to his family.
There was a further resolution which read this way:
Whereas the widows of servicemen who were killed or who died during service will be unable to educate their children to the same standard which might have been attained had the father returned; and
Whereas it is in the best interests of the nation to have the rising generation well educated, particularly the children of men who died for their country:
Therefore be it resolved that the federal government be requested to instigate a policy for such dependents similar to that in force for single student veterans attending university or vocational training schools and receiving a monthly allowance under the Rehabilitation Act.
Following that convention the new president of the Legion presented a supplementary brief to the special committee on veterans affairs, as the minister knows. At page 5 of that brief we find this statement with regard to these rehabilitation credits. He quotes part of these resolutions I have read, and in addition says this:
The convention further indicated that it felt that the country, in memory of its war dead, could do something more for the family of one who died in service, and recommended that the rehabilitation

credits which would have accrued had the husband or father lived or some equivalent provisions be made available for his family.
Then after quoting the resolutions the Legion end their submission in this way:
These two resolutions are similar in purpose, and we are sure will commend themselves, both to the members of this committee and to the government. The people of Canada through their government would want to assume the obligation indicated in these resolutions, and see that these young people be assured of an opportunity for training and education which we may reasonably assume the father would have provided had he not laid down his life for his country.
In connection with this suggestion there are two features which I think merit consideration by the department. The first is that there was, of course, no liability to the country for the rehabilitation of these men who lost their lives. The second is that these children whose fathers were killed or who died in the service of the country are unlikely to have the same chance to obtain an education or to obtain a thorough training that they would have had if the father had returned to Canada. I believe that veterans generally are in favour of some proposal such as that suggested by the Legion. I would ask the minister to let us know the views of the department on this question.


Hugues Lapointe: The resolution was passed on to me by the executive council of the Legion and along with other resolutions it is now being studied by the department and will be considered by the cabinet. That is all I can say at this stage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
561. To provide for protection of security-soldier settlement, and refunds of surplus to veterans, $25,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: May we have an explanation of this item?


Hugues Lapointe: That is the usual vote for the settlement of veterans under the Veterans Land Act, to purchase property and so on. My hon. friend will see that there is also a supplementary estimate.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: Might I point out that the purchase of property at Montney in the Peace river country for some 32 veterans has turned out successfully. This land was acquired from the Indian affairs branch, or at least from the Indians. It was reserve land. I think you have there an example that might be copied all over British Columbia and in many other parts of the country. Arable land owned by the Indians or reserve land not being cultivated could profitably be
Supply-Veterans Affairs taken over, as was done at Montney, and good prosperous homes could be provided for many of our veterans.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: There are four supplementary estimates to be found at pages 21 and 22 of the white book.
Pensions and other benefits-
816.	War veterans allowances-further amount required, $5,850,000.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: May we have an explanation of this item?


Hugues Lapointe: This is to meet the increases which were provided by the amendments to the War Veterans Allowance Act.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
817.	Gallantry awards-world war 2 and special force-further amount required, $3,000.
Alfred Johnson Brooks: May we have an explanation of this item?


Hugues Lapointe: This is to provide for the payment of money for gallantry awards for the Korean force, the same as were given to veterans of world war II.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Has the government ever considered giving money awards to veterans of world war I for these military awards? I do not think they received the same consideration as that received by veterans of world war II or that which is being received by the veterans in the Korean war.


Hugues Lapointe: This matter was brought up before in the discussion on the estimates. During the first world war we were not paying; the British government was paying the monetary awards attached to these decorations. During the second world war we took over the payment of the awards that had been paid by the United Kingdom government in respect of world war I. Then during the second world war there were pecuniary awards given in connection with other decorations, which were not given during the first world war. We now assume payment for all. But we follow a uniform policy with the rest of the countries of the commonwealth as regards world war I decorations.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Has any consideration been given to Canadians who were imperial veterans of world war I and were paid in pounds sterling? Has there been any consideration of the fact that the pound sterling is so low in value?


Hugues Lapointe: I would not think that question would come under this item. These veterans are receiving disability pensions from the British government.

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Lewis Elston Cardiff: But due to the fact that the pound is so low in value they would not be receiving very much.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: How many South African war veterans do we still have in Canada? I notice that we have a pension fund for them.


Hugues Lapointe: I shall endeavour to get those figures. We would have the number of recipients of war veterans allowances, but I do not think I have the figure the hon. member seeks.
While I am on my feet I should like to correct an answer I gave to the hon. member for Royal this afternoon in connection with veterans insurance. He asked me the number of policies in force at the present time and I replied that there were 32,142. The figure should have been 26,985.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
421. To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements: cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; refund of surplus to veterans (section 19); and for protection of security under the Veterans Land Act-further amount required, $2,500,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the minister explain this item.


Hugues Lapointe: This deals with the same subject matter as the vote in the main estimates in respect of settlement under the Veterans Land Act. It was found that the number of veterans qualified would be such that we would require this supplementary amount of $2,500,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
330. Departmental administration, $584,997.
Howard Charles Green: Is the Minister of Public Works making any statement concerning the work of his department?


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, I could make a real statement by reading what is in the estimate book. The Department of Public Works is not a policy-making department; we service departments, and we try to help every department of government as well as hon. members and people throughout the country who require public works. If it would please the hon. member I would be prepared to read the list of works we are undertaking, but I believe this would be an expenditure of time that would not be justified because hon. members have had this book of estimates for the last three or four months, and I know they are familiar with nearly every item. However, if they have any questions in

respect of any project I shall be ready to do my best to answer them.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, there is one feature about the department which gives me some concern, and which I think could be dealt with by the minister. I refer to the extent to which other departments of government are doing construction work.
I have had this matter in mind for some time, and I see by the morning press that the special committee of the Senate has made a recommendation on this same point. The dispatch I hold in my hand is headed "Ottawa is hit for by-passing Public Works". That makes it look as though the minister is being by-passed and we do not like to see that happen.
The report of the Senate committee has not yet reached us, but I have here the proceedings of the meeting of the committee where they cross-examined the deputy minister of this department. According to this press dispatch several definite recommendations were made concerning the Department of Public Works. The article sets out these recommendations:
(1) That federal government departments stop by-passing the public works department to build their own works. The report said this should be handled by the public works department, as the law intended.
Then the second recommendation deals with postage. The article then goes on to say:
Regarding public works the report said that departments other than the public works department plan to spend more this year than the $80 million budget of the public works department for this purpose.
Then follows this quotation from the report of the Senate committee:
It certainly appears this can have no other effect than duplication and overlapping and the inevitable general increase in costs that is bound to result from this practice.
Then the dispatch goes on to say:
Although provision was made in legislation for other departments to build their own works-
And again the article quotes from the report of the Senate committee:
-surely this was only intended to meet special circumstances, and was never meant to be used in the broad sense in which it is used today.
The hon. senators brought out during the course of their cross-examination the fact that public works were being constructed by the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. They refer also to canals being constructed by the Department of Transport, to the Canso causeway and to the airports also under the jurisdiction of that department. Then they make reference to armouries being built by

the Department of National Defence, though I think they meant the Department of Defence Production. There is reference to the new building on the Montreal road for the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, which is being constructed by that corporation. There is further reference to buildings being constructed by the Department of National Revenue, to buildings by national parks branch, by the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, and to construction being done by the Department of External Affairs, the Department of Fisheries and by the commissioner of penitentiaries. I have only had time to glance through the report of this Senate committee rather quickly. I think other departments or branches of government are mentioned there, and it would look as though something of a raid is being made by other departments on the functions of the Department of Public Works. They seem to be wolfing the Department of Public Works.
This is really a serious matter because the Department of Public Works was set up, I think at the time of confederation, for the purpose of constructing public works in Canada. The department was entrusted with the construction of public works. I should like to know why that situation is being changed. It appears that under part II of the Public Works Act there is provision for another department to take away from the Department of Public Works the building of projects, and we have had many examples of this.	.
I raised this matter yesterday with the Minister of Defence Production. That department does all the building for the Department of National Defence, but that was not so before the second world war. Hon. members will remember that at that time defence building was done by the Department of Public Works. Certain forts were built in Vancouver, and if my memory serves me correctly they were built by the Department of Public Works.
Some weeks ago the Minister of Defence Production explained that his department was temporary, and it was hoped that eventually the work would be handed over to other departments. I would have thought that when that time came defence projects would go back to the Department of Public Works. When I asked the Minister of Defence Production about that yesterday he replied, as reported on page 3631 of Hansard:


Howard Charles Green: The minister said a few days ago
that he did not expect the Department of Defence Production to be carried on indefinitely. I presume that in due course this work of building projects for the Department of National Defence will revert to the Department of Public Works? Is that the intention?
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Mr. Howe:: That is a matter that cannot be predicted at this time. When the work handled by the Department of Defence Production becomes so small that it does not warrant the overhead of a separate department, the work will be placed elsewhere; but I cannot predict at this time where the work will be placed.
Apparently it is quite indefinite as to just which department will take on this work when the Department of Defence Production folds up. I am afraid that if this trend continues of having construction work done by different departments it will be more expensive than having the work done by the Department of Public Works. After all, the minister has trained men in his department and it has been their job for many years to build public works. I do not see why other departments should step in and take away that construction work. If it goes on the Department of Public Works will soon be in a position where it is not qualified to handle many of these projects. None of us would want that to happen. I do not believe the department is being given a proper chance at the present time, and I hope that the minister will put his foot down with his colleagues and see that these projects become the responsibility of his department.
Mr. Fournier, (Hull): Mr. Chairman, I am sure the praise and the encouragement of the hon. member in connection with the work of the officials of my department will be greatly appreciated. I was really flattered when I saw this Senate report where they indicated that all construction should come under the Department of Public Works. I would be the last to object to that. They indicate that more construction is going on outside the Department of Public Works than is done by that department, so I can visualize the department with a staff two and a half times as large as we have at the present time. I ask myself whether that increase would be justified when we know that most of the construction being done by other departments is of a temporary nature and may disappear within one, two or three years.
The hon. gentleman mentioned that the Department of Public Works was an old department of government. It was created at the time of confederation and has existed ever since. It has under its control all buildings and the housing of government services, and I am referring particularly to office space. Other departments have handled construction work. The Department of National Defence has always had an engineering staff in charge of the construction of barracks and other works which were never under the Department of Public Works.

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In former years practically all works along rivers and harbours were under the Department of Public Works, but then the national harbours board and other harbour commissions came into being and they undertook these works themselves. Then as to Indian schools, the Indian affairs branch has architects with special knowledge in these matters, and they are handling this construction. In the past this was handled by the Department of Public Works. In the matter of hospitals we do act for the Department of National Health and Welfare, as we do for many other departments.
My hon. friend should not fear that the Department of Public Works will disappear or that the officials in the department will not be able to handle any construction that is approved by hon. members in the way of estimates. Our present staff is not sufficiently large to handle all the construction work mentioned in the estimates. There is a shortage of this type of technical men and we cannot always undertake all the public works that are approved. They may drag on for a year or two, but eventually we are able to construct the authorized wharves, piers and breakwaters and do the dredging that is called for.	*
I think this department should avoid haste in the development of projects. I cannot change the mentality of the staff of my department. These men come in at an early age and are trained under a certain procedure and technique. It is often said that the Department of Public Works has the most red tape, and after ten years at the head of that department I think it is true. Hon. members may not realize how many reports must be made before a recommendation can be made to the treasury board and cabinet for authorization to present an estimate to parliament. For the sake of protecting the public I think it is good that we follow this procedure. Quite often hasty work is wasted work, and we pride ourselves upon having the most economical department in the government. This means that we have many revotes every session, but that in turn indicates that we have given a lot of thought and are ever aware of the responsibility which devolves upon us under the statute governing this department. I am always pleased to hear it said that certain works should come under the public works department. Nothing would please me more than to handle a good many projects, but I do not believe I could give satisfaction without increasing the staff. I think other temporary departments could do the work more expeditiously than it could be done by the public works department. The hon. member spoke of Central Mortgage

and Housing Corporation. I would not contest their right to put up their building. They must have experts. That is their line of business; but that organization did not exist when the public works department was created. It is another creation of government which has come about in modern times.
As to canal work, I think in the transport department they have people with special training who are capable of doing that work. I would not want to undertake to handle all construction work. Being a servant of the other departments and the public is quite difficult enough with the task we have now, because you would be surprised how many people are not satisfied with what we are doing. We are not doing it very quickly, so I think I would leave well enough alone as Minister of Public Works and do the best I can with the works we have to handle.


Howard Charles Green: I am afraid the minister is a real Tory.


Alphonse Fournier: I beg your pardon; oh, no. That is the only word I object to in what the hon. gentleman has said.


Howard Charles Green: I am afraid we have a real reactionary here.


Alphonse Fournier: That is not what they say on my side.


Howard Charles Green: After all, this department is meant to be the building department of the government. That is its job. The minister himself has pointed out that he believes the taxpayers get better protection from his department than they do from the other departments.


Alphonse Fournier: I did not say that.


Howard Charles Green: That is what it meant.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, no; I did not say it and I did not mean it, so do not put a meaning on my words that I did not intend to give. Other departments are doing a wonderful job under the circumstances. I am trying to give the traditions of the Department of Public Works. We have certain traditions. It is not only the Tories who have traditions. They exist in other parties too.


Howard Charles Green: The minister put it in this way. He said that his department gave great protection to the public. He explained what great trouble they went to in preparing their estimates. He told us all about the red tape and all the precautions to protect the public. Surely the public is entitled to just as much protection in the other departments.


Alphonse Fournier: Ask the other departments. Don't ask me.


Howard Charles Green: I will be glad to help the minister.


Alphonse Fournier: I don't need that help.


Howard Charles Green: I am afraid the minister is getting an inferiority complex.


Alphonse Fournier: That may happen.


Howard Charles Green: He seems quite prepared to sit back and let other departments kick him around. I suggest in all seriousness-


Alphonse Fournier: The only man who has kicked me around is you.


Howard Charles Green: The minister does not mind that. He kicks back, and well, too. I suggest in all seriousness that the present trend means the building up in other departments of staffs to carry on these building projects, adding an engineer here and an architect there, whereas that work should be done by the staff of the Department of Public Works which has facilities for doing these jobs. I believe no one would quarrel with the minister making additions to his staff so they could handle most of these public works projects. I do not believe there can be any question that there is bound to be duplication and waste of public money where you have a dozen or more different government departments doing their own building.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: The minister was kind enough to say that if there is any project about which we wish to inquire now is the time to do so. I should like to tell the minister that we have an outstanding need in Fort William. I have been after the project for over twelve years and we are still keeping at it. I refer to a breakwater in front of island No. 2 for the storage of pulpwood and logs for our two large paper mills, our sawmills and the use of industry generally on that island. Two large delegations came here last March, and I expect their number will be doubled next year. All I want the minister to do is consider this as an important project, because we hope to get it next year.


Mr. Hees:: I have spoken to the minister on several occasions during the past few months in an endeavour to ascertain from him what the government is going to do to prevent further deterioration of the Toronto islands. I have not yet had an answer from him, and I hope I shall be able to get one tonight. I have emphasized to the minister the essential part these islands play in the formation of Toronto harbour. I pointed out that without these islands, there would not be any Toronto harbour at all. 1 have also pointed out to him that the Toronto harbour is a very important part of the projected St. Lawrence seaway and that if the situation with respect to the islands is allowed to deteriorate further, the cost of repair in the years ahead will be many times more than it would be at the present time.
Supply-Public Works
Eventually that cost will have to be borne by the federal government, because harbours are a federal responsibility. I have talked recently with Mayor Lamport of Toronto, and he tells me that he is getting nowhere with the Department of Public Works. Frankly, he thinks he is getting the run-around from the minister. I should like to make a suggestion to the minister, who is a very practical politician. It is well known that the Liberal party would like to have Allan Lamport as its leader in Ontario, and he is pretty reluctant about taking on that rather thankless task at the present time.


Alphonse Fournier: That would not come under any item of public works, Mr. Chairman. I am sure of that.


George Harris Hees: I am just making a helpful suggestion. A very good way to persuade Mayor Lamport .to take on that rather unattractive task at the present time would be for the federal government to assist the city of Toronto with regard to the Toronto islands. I am trying to help the minister, who is a practical politician.


Alphonse Fournier: You are not going to get me to choose the leader in Ontario. I have enough troubles in Quebec.


George Harris Hees: All I can do is make all the suggestions possible. I am simply trying to help the minister.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: One mistake was enough.


George Harris Hees: As the hon. member for Peterborough West says, one mistake was enough. I would appreciate it very much if the minister would tell me, at long last, what the department intends to do with regard to assisting the city of Toronto in building protective works to help stop any further deterioration of the Toronto islands which, as I pointed out, are a vitally important and necessary part of the Toronto harbour.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that the damage to the islands is caused by high water and floods-


George Harris Hees: Storms.


Alphonse Fournier: Storms-and that high water in a harbour does not do any harm. It may damage the islands, but the islands do not come under our jurisdiction at all. If we were to undertake to repair damages every time there was a flood or high water in the district I do not know if we could cope with the situation. I have said many times in the house that no district has suffered more from floods and high water than my own home city right across the river here. You see the Gatineau flowing into the Ottawa river, and every spring one-third of a town of about 4,000 people is flooded. When I was

Supply-Public Works
a member, before I became a minister in the government, I did make requests and pleas to get help for those poor people in Gatineau Point who were flooded. I never succeeded. When I became minister I had the dual capacity of member and Minister of Public Works, and I have had many discussions with myself as to what should be done for those people. If you are speaking about politics, and I know a little about that subject, I do not know why the member for Hull should not have had the best of the Minister of Public Works.


George Harris Hees: I am surprised that he didn't.


Alphonse Fournier: To date I have not convinced myself that it is any responsibility of the federal government; and if that principle is good in my own riding I think it should be equally good in Toronto. We have no jurisdiction unless it becomes a matter of a national disaster. When the municipality asks the province of Ontario for help in this direction, and when the province of Ontario will say: we cannot cope, the expenditure is too large, they can always come to the federal government and I am sure the federal government would consider any request from the province of Ontario under those circumstances.


George Harris Hees: I quite realize that every time there is flooding or erosion the federal government cannot be expected to right the situation. That would not be reasonable, and I have not appealed to the minister to do anything about the great losses and damage done to the shores of Toronto itself by erosion and flooding, nor have I appealed on a humanitarian basis for those who live on the islands, for property damage and so on. I am simply appealing on the basis that harbours, as I understand, are federal responsibilities. If this deterioration continues, then you are going to have no Toronto harbour. If you want to have a Toronto harbour as a vital part of the St. Lawrence seaway, it will have to be built up in the future, which will cost many, many times more than it would cost at the present time.
If the federal government has no intention of assisting Toronto in preserving its harbour, I would like the minister to say that now. If they do intend to help Toronto preserve the harbour I would like to know what steps they intend to take. I would like to know how we stand. Does the dominion government intend to help or not:


Alphonse Fournier: I would like to know the answer the hon. gentleman received from the province of Ontario.


George Harris Hees: As I understand it, harbours such as this are a federal responsibility.


Alphonse Fournier: I told you that high water helps us.


George Harris Hees: There is deterioration of the harbour.


Alphonse Fournier: My officials tell me there is no deterioration of the harbour.


Mr. Ferguson:: I do not intend to advise the Liberal government how to select a leader for the province of Ontario; if they continue as they have in the past it will be very satisfactory, in my opinion. However, I would like to mention to the minister the drydock contemplated for Collingwood.
This is a coldblooded business proposition, because I believe it is most essential to the shipping facilities on the great lakes. It is the logical location for it, and considerable progress has been made on the project. Owing to the fact that nowadays they are building large tankers and large iron ore carriers it has become more essential than ever that a big drydock capable of handling this type of boat be constructed at Collingwood. Can the minister inform me how rapidly that work might be expected to proceed?
Recently, within the last few months, one of the newer tankers was damaged by fire at Sarnia, and I believe the repairs alone amount to approximately $1J million. They found it necessary to take that boat to the United States for repairs because we have no drydock on the great lakes capable of handling the large tonnage boats that are now being constructed.
I am sure the minister would be glad to give me information on when the work may be started on the new drydock at Collingwood which is so essential to all great lakes shipping.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand there is a company called the Collingwood Drydock Company that wishes to undertake these works. They are associated with Canada Steamship Lines and they are actually negotiating with the officials of my department to see whether they can come under the Dry Docks Subsidies Act. They are preparing plans, and if they meet the conditions set out in the Dry Docks Subsidies Act they will benefit from the act and get a contribution or a grant spread over so many years. They have hot finalized their plans or the negotiations for this grant.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Thank you very much.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Referring to the point raised by the hon. member for Broadview, my recollection is that when this subject was up in March the minister did say he was getting a report on the situation

from one of his engineers. Am I right in that? And if I am right, has that report been received? Because, as the member for Broadview said, it seems to me it is very desirable that we should know whether any responsibility is assumed here. Somebody certainly should be assuming responsibility, and if the minister's engineer has reported then can we not know; and if he has not, should we not know what is going on?


Alphonse Fournier: That is right; and the engineer reports that it is not our responsibility, that the harbour did not suffer any damages. I just explained before the hon. gentleman came in that for flood situations, high water and damage by storms we have no jurisdiction or responsibility unless the damage is to our own works. As the high water in the harbour of Toronto does not stop the traffic or harm the harbour we have no responsibility for the damage on the island. As I explained, if we were to cover all damage occasioned by storms and floods I would be the first to try to benefit from that responsibility because in my own district, two miles from here, every spring you will see the most terrible flood conditions.


George Harris Hees: But there is no harbour there.


Alphonse Fournier: There is no harbour but people are living right alongside that river.


George Harris Hees: We are talking about a harbour.


Alphonse Fournier: If you are speaking on humanitarian grounds, and as you said a moment ago you were speaking for the people on the island-


George Harris Hees: As I explained to the minister I am not speaking on humanitarian grounds, because I realize that is not a federal responsibility. I am speaking because I believe this is a harbour which is a federal responsibility.


Alphonse Fournier: That is your opinion, that it is our responsibility. Not being my deputy minister nor my adviser, do you think I should take your opinion on this or take the opinion of those who have spent their lives on these works? Perhaps I am all wrong; perhaps I should tell my officers: Don't tell me these stories; the member for Broadview knows best.


George Harris Hees: We are beginning to get
somewhere.


Alphonse Fournier: Up to now I am not
convinced I would be right in doing that.


George Harris Hees: I am most amazed that the minister took the trouble to send his engineer to investigate the matter if all along it was not a federal responsibility. It seemed to me
55704-235J
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that by sending his engineer, the minister agreed that it was a federal responsibility, but I take it that the federal government refuses to do anything in that regard.


Alphonse Fournier: You will not make me say what I do not want to say. The gentleman asks: why did you send your engineer? What would you have said if I had not sent an engineer to look at the damage?


George Harris Hees: I would expect you to have said that it was not a federal responsibility and that there was no reason for sending an engineer.


Alphonse Fournier: I have told you twice
what the report was.


George Harris Hees: The report of your engineer is different from the report by the city of Toronto.


Alphonse Fournier: I am neither the mayor nor a councillor of the city of Toronto. I happen to be the minister of the federal public works department. I have listened to the praise given by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, and if you and he agree that we have the best of officials and do the best of jobs, then we will make some progress with these estimates.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to ask a question, but unfortunately I lost my voice down on the Saguenay. Well, I enjoyed the Quebec hospitality down there. I think the minister can hear me. Tonight I am not speaking just about the Fraser valley. One of the Quebec members had a resolution on the order paper concerning river bank erosion on the St. Lawrence. In my own district river bank erosion is the most important thing facing us. I am not talking about harbours now. In the old days the municipality or local authority could care for this, but surely the minister realizes the problem has gone far beyond the ability of the local authority to cope with. He must realize that from his experience in his own district across the river. I thought the minister said, and I should like to be corrected on it, that the request must come from the provincial authority if assistance is required in connection with river bank erosion?


Alphonse Fournier: Our department
undertakes certain works when they affect our own federal works or if the damage is caused by our own work or by navigation. That is a clear principle. People suffer from floods or high water or storms, and we believe it is the responsibility of the municipality to cope with the situation. They generally address themselves to the parent who created the municipality, and that is the provincial government. If it is a disaster

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of national character and of such importance that the province just cannot cope with it, then the province asks the federal government for help. That is what happened in the Fraser valley flood, in the Winnipeg flood and the Rimouski and Cabano fires. I do not know of any other incidents. We have no direct relationship with the municipalities. They are not our creatures at all. When they have complaints to make they address themselves to the provincial government.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am afraid the minister did not quite understand me. I am not complaining about the generous treatment we received in so far as the floods were concerned, from both the federal and provincial governments. Unlike the member for Broadview, I am not trying to promote anybody at all. Unfortunately we have no government in British Columbia, so I am promoting nobody out there. However, the Canadian National Railways is one of the most valuable assets of the people of Canada. Am I to understand that in this modern day and age the local municipality-I am not talking about floods or diking now but the natural erosion which occurs every year.- is expected to pay the cost of preventing future river bank erosion such as that which occurred within the last ten months within one hundred yards of the great Canadian National right of way? Is the municipality expected to protect the farmers of the Fraser valley, to protect the Canadian National Railways as well as the investment of the Minister of National Defence of over a million and a half dollars in this area? Am I *to understand that is the responsibility of the local municipality, with a revenue of perhaps $60,000 a year?
From a selfish point of view, I shall tell you the first thing I would have done if I had been Minister of Public Works and the member for that little district across the river, a very enjoyable district. I would have built a dam around that new $2,500,000 building we have been putting up over there, and which has been flooded. I cannot understand why, in this day and age, the Minister of Public Works should tell me it is the responsibility of the local authorities to protect the Canadian National Railways and the investment of the Department of National Defence in a secret naval station. I could tell you what it is. The hon. member for Vancouver South can talk about canoes, but the interceptor station for the whole Pacific coast, in case of a Russian invasion, was endangered within the last ten months by the falling away of a bank. Am I to believe it is the responsibility of a little municipality with a revenue of $50,000 or $60,000 a year
[Mr. Fournier (Hull).l
to protect the Canadian National Railways? One hundred feet of erosion would tie up the whole Pacific coast. It does not make sense to me. I have asked the minister a direct question. Is it the responsibility of the provincial government to make application? Obviously the municipalities cannot apply to the federal government.


Alphonse Fournier: I have stated the general principle, Mr. Chairman, and that policy was announced in the house by the Prime Minister himself. In answer to the hon. member I may say that the Department of Public Works was not set up to protect national defence or the Canadian National Railways. They have their budgets, and they have their obligations. They should protect themselves, and I think they do. Why ask the public works department to do everything that can be done in the country, when it is only one of the departments of government acting under a special statute setting out its jurisdiction? I could be the protector of orphans, the Canadian National Railways and all these works, but they do not come under my department.
I think the member for Vancouver-Quadra was right-


Howard Charles Green: Do not drag me into this fight.


Alphonse Fournier: -when he said I was too soft, and that members asked me for all kinds of things. They do not come under my department. To be polite, I am ready to help. If you want me to see someone from the Canadian National to ascertain if they will protect their own property, I can do that. But do not ask the Department of Public Works to take a responsibility which does not come under the department at all.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Before making my few
remarks I should like to make a suggestion to the minister once again. I made one last year, in fact I have made several of them. Whenever the Department of Public Works has men whom they are proud to bring on the floor of the house, I think those men should be introduced to the house. We permit them to come in here to assist the minister, and every time he has new assistants he should introduce them to the house. I know some people near me have asked who these gentlemen are. I happen to know one of them fairly well, perhaps better than he wants to know me. Apart from that, I believe this should be done for the benefit of members who might not have had the opportunity to know these gentlemen.
I want to say that I was rather amazed when the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra said that he was greatly concerned over the public works department. I wonder how

many headaches he would have had if he had had as much to do with the public works department as I have in the last five years, in requesting the construction of a building in Charlottetown known as a post office. Imagine the headaches the member for Van-couver-Quadra would have had if he had had to follow that scheme as I have tried to follow it. Still, I am getting good promises.
I believe those promises will be fulfilled. The minister has been praised tonight as the builder for all the departments, or as the public works man for all the departments. In our case I am afraid he is not even a demol-isher of property, because he and his department have bought a new site for a building they have promised to erect there. They have bought a great deal of property. I understand they have paid for nearly all of it; perhaps they have paid for it all. Now they have become land owners, or property owners, and are renting the property. I suppose they are making quite a good revenue out of it. I know that some of the tenants are paying fairly high rents. The department have a man down there collecting the rents. They are really in the rental business down there.
There is an election coming on next year or probably the year after. What I have been urging them to do is demolish these old buildings and have the site all ready for the new federal building they are going to build there. Time after time we have men down there approaching members and asking them for work. The work they could be doing right now would be demolishing these buildings. The department could get that work done now for a good deal less than it will cost later on when they start to build in a rush. Moreover, by doing it now it would give employment to men who need it today.
So much for the post office. I have been told that we are going to get it. I believe the minister will make good on that promise, because he must make good fairly soon. I know it is going to arrive just in the nick of time, just before the next election.
There was another matter that was mentioned here tonight. I am not going to speak on it now but I just want to say to the Minister of Public Works and to the aides he has with him that I am going to speak on harbour improvements at the appropriate time and also on the building of a marine railway slip, which is another matter to which I have directed attention time and again. There is no disputing that it is a matter that is under this department, because it is for the benefit of the harbour. However, there is an item for that project, and I shall speak on it later. I just want to remind the minister that we still have his promise about
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the post office. I feel certain that he will build it. When he will do it is something which it will be up to him to tell us, probably tonight.


William Joseph Browne: There are three items of a general nature that I should like to speak about at this time. One is in connection with the wharf at Portugal Cove. That is a matter which has been raised on several occasions, and on each occasion the minister has said he has no responsibility. I understand that lately there have been conferences between representatives of the provincial government and the federal Department of Public Works on this subject. Portugal Cove is a vital link between the city of St. John's and Bell island. Bell island is the site of the iron ore mines from which between 2 and 3 million tons of iron ore are shipped to the United Kingdom, Germany and Sydney annually. It is an extremely prosperous community. Portugal Cove on the mainland is the place where people have to take a boat and where goods have to be put on board ship to be brought to Bell island.
It seems to me the Department of Public Works should take responsibility for that wharf. There is a tremendous amount of traffic going over it. The great earning power of Bell island is a source of revenue that comes to the federal government through customs and excise duties, sales tax and income tax. There is a big trade between St. John's and Bell island. I should think all of this would be sufficient justification for the minister to say "We will go ahead and we will fix that wharf" and not only fix it but make a decent harbour there. When the princess was there last year, those who have seen the picture "Royal Journey" will remember how rough it was when they were taking the tug to board the liner to take them across the ocean. It is a dangerous harbour in rough weather. There is a big rock right out in front of the wharf. Notwithstanding all the revenue that is pouring into the federal government from Bell island they have not spent any money in connection with it up to the present time. I urge the Minister of Public Works to reconsider his attitude in that respect.
The second matter about which I wish to speak is another hardy annual that has been brought up for consideration each year. I refer to the public building for St. John's. The minister and his officials have been looking around for three years for a site for a public building for St. John's and each year there has been a vote or a revote for that purpose. When the minister is good enough to reply, I should like to know what progress he has made with regard to selecting a site for the public building at St. John's. It

Supply-Public Works
is certainly necessary there. The various departmental offices are all over the place. If he carries out the policy he has adopted elsewhere, he will have a public building erected.
The third point I wish to bring to his attention is in connection with the dredging of the smaller harbours in Newfoundland. Dredging has been going on to a considerable extent in the constituency represented by the Secretary of State, particularly at Bonavista where hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent not only on dredging but on other matters as well. The same thing applies with respect to Grand Bank and Fortune. At these three large settlements dredging has been done. But none has been done in the smaller places, where the fishermen are practically obliged to pole their way in at high water only, such as Renews of which I have spoken half a dozen times here when the estimates have been before the committee. Can the minister not say that something is going to be done for Renews this year? The vote is provided. So will he see that the work is done? It is still a question whether it is going to be done or not, because a dredge may not be sent there.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. gentleman has mentioned three subjects. The first was Portugal Cove. Our difficulties started there because it would be a wharf for the ferry crossing over to the island. This department does not build wharves for ferries, but it builds wharves for the general public use. I am told that my officials down there are negotiating with the province in order to see whether we can come to an understanding with regard to putting up the real facilities that are necessary. If we come to an agreement and have a joint project down there, I think we would go right ahead with it. We have not yet reached that agreement.
As to sites, may I say that I have heard a great deal about a site for that public building at St. John's. I am having trouble in getting a meeting of minds with regard to a site. Personally I favour the Paddock site on government property, which has been recommended to me even by a delegation sent down to St. John's some years ago, on which was Mr. Norman Robertson, clerk of the privy council. I personally spoke with the premier of Newfoundland and he was all ready to sell us that site; but to date, though I have written to the premier to ask what price he wants for it, I have not received an answer. I could hardly conclude that deal without having an answer from the premier of Newfoundland. With my usual 
patience, I am awaiting an answer from the premier with regard to the price he wants for that site.
As to dredging, may I say that we had a new dredge built for the use of the island and for doing dredging in these smaller harbours; but there was a great deal to be done in Newfoundland when it came into union. We have done a considerable amount of work on that island and in the harbours since Newfoundland joined with us. But we cannot do the whole works in one, two or three years. There are 6,000 miles of coast line around that island, and people are living along that coast line. A great many of them are fishermen who expect facilities such as wharves, breakwaters, harbours and dredging. Each year we do a certain amount of that work.
We are still young enough, both the hon. member who put the question and I, that we will see the day when all those harbours will be perfect, and probably the population will be up.


William Joseph Browne: I should like to reply to the first point raised by the minister in connection with this wharf. He speaks of it as a ferry wharf, and because it has so much traffic it is not a place in which the Minister of Public Works considers he should take any interest. Yet he knows that he is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on other wharves where the traffic will not be one per cent of what it is at Portugal Cove. That is not only in Newfoundland, but in other parts of the maritime provinces.


Alphonse Fournier: Name me one place.


William Joseph Browne: I will name two of them, where the total population is not 300, and where you are spending half a million dollars.


Alphonse Fournier: Where is that?


William Joseph Browne: At Chance Harbour and at Lorneville in New Brunswick. He is spending $280,000 in one place and $200,000 in the other. I took the trouble to look up the population of those places. I could not find it myself. I searched in the library, and they did not have the population. The dominion bureau of statistics spent a week trying to find out what the population was.
But there are 10,000 people living on Bell island, and they are doing a tremendous trade as I said before. Yet the minister says this is a ferry wharf. What is the wharf at Digby? Is that not a ferry wharf? Why are you spending money on the wharf at Digby? There is not half as much trade over the wharf at Digby as there is at Portugal Cove.


Alphonse Fournier: Now that you have given your story, I will tell you this. I have explained that this is a wharf for ferry purposes. If you can tell me that at Chance Harbour in New Brunswick we are spending that amount of money for ferry wharf purposes, then I will have to admit that I was wrong.


William Joseph Browne: I did not
say it was for ferry purposes.


Alphonse Fournier: I am telling you that Portugal Cove is a ferry proposition, and you know what the premier said against my engineers down there.


William Joseph Browne: That has nothing to do with it.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, yes, it has. They have their obligations and we have ours.


William Joseph Browne: That is a personal matter.


Alphonse Fournier: No, it is not; it is a public matter.


William Joseph Browne: No.


Alphonse Fournier: If the ferries in a province are under my jurisdiction, I will build wharves. If they are not, the provinces will undertake it, and it will not be for the federal government. Sometimes I get tired of being blamed for everything that is going on in the country, when all the time I am doing my best to help satisfy everybody. If you are speaking about Chance Harbour, just let me tell you what the story is about Chance Harbour. I do not know all the places in this country, but it appears that Chance Harbour is in the riding of Saint John-Albert. The cost is stated at $280,000. This item provides for the construction of a breakwater to replace the existing structure which can no longer provide adequate shelter and landing facilities for fishermen at this port. Now, I suppose you want me to help the fishermen, do you not?


William Joseph Browne: How many fishermen are there?


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, let me finish. Let me give my story; you have given yours. The sheltered area behind the existing breakwater is dry at low water and is exposed to the easterly winds, affording little if any protection to fishing boats in storms. The lack of proper landing and mooring facilities at all stages of the tide has retarded the development of the fishing industry and has seriously hampered the activities of the winter seining fleet of the herring fishery.
Supply-Public Works It is proposed to construct a creosoted timber breakwater 330 feet long by 25 to 40 feet wide, with a timber trestle approach 210 feet long by 60 feet wide. The estimated cost is $280,000, and the work is to be done by contract. This was requested by Hon. R. W. Mayhew, Minister of Fisheries, in a letter dated January 11, 1949.


William Joseph Browne: What has all this to do with it?


Alphonse Fournier: I am going to give you the story. You wanted to know, and I want to tell you my story. Mr. Stewart Bates, deputy minister of fisheries, in a letter dated May 3, 1950, states as follows: Referring to your letter of April 4 asking for an expression of opinion on the justification for an expenditure at Chance Harbour-
And it will be noted that before we act we get the opinions of experts in these matters.
-to improve landing facilities and sheltered mooring for fishermen at that port, I would advise you that a report from the chief supervisor furnishes the following information:
Number of fishermen operating out of this
port-33.
24 motor boats valued at	 $ 9,072
35 rowboats valued at	 1,225
5 herring scale boats valued at	 1,000
64	$11,297
It will be noted that there are 64 boats going in and out of that harbour. We are advised that the existing breakwater is inadequate. During low water, for about two hours, boats are unable to get through the breakwater. The harbour is exposed to easterly winds and gets exceptionally rough during a storm, the present breakwater affording little if any protection.
I have three or four pages of this report, in which are set out the opinions of people who know something about the fishing industry, in which they ask the Department of Public Works to do this work. What would you answer to these poor fishermen at Chance Harbour?


William Joseph Browne: Do you want
an answer?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes; I am sure you would give the same answer I would.


William Joseph Browne: The minister has given us the information in connection with building a breakwater at a village where there are 33 fishermen. Remember, 33 is the number.


Alphonse Fournier: Fishing boats.


William Joseph Browne: But there are more than 33 fishermen at Portugal Cove who use this wharf.

Supply-Public Works Mr. Fournier (Hull): I never told you that you did not have a case; but I have told you the difficulties we have. State your difficulties, and we will see what we can do about it.


William Joseph Browne: It is the
federal government which takes the responsibility for the wharves.


Alphonse Fournier: Not all the wharves.


William Joseph Browne: Let us suppose there were a catastrophe, which I trust will never occur. If Bell island were to sink beneath the waves, there would still be the boats of fishermen at that wharf at Portugal Cove. The federal government would then have to take an interest in it. But because there is some difficulty with the province the minister says his department should not take an interest in it. I repeat that the minister should take an interest in it, and a complete interest.


Mr. Hodgson:: I should like to ask a very simple question that I think will make the minister feel good. On September 7, I believe it was, I received a letter from his department granting a dock on the Gull river at Minden, Ontario. I was wondering how soon the department would begin work on the building of that dock.


Alphonse Fournier: If it is a project under $5,000 it comes out of the general vote which the hon. member will see in the estimates. Items under $5,000 are not specified. If the hon. member has made a good case, then as always the Department of Public Works will do the work. But make a good case, and have the right approach to it.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I was wondering if the work could be started before too long. It is about a year since it was granted.


Alphonse Fournier: I said that sometimes we do not act very quickly, but when we do something it is well done.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: That is fine, thank you.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It is seldom I am able to assist the minister, but when I get a chance I like to do so. I do not like to let it slip. It happens that I have gone a good many times from the wharf at Portugal Cove, on Bell island, and I am able to underline everything my colleague has said about the big rock just off the wharf.
I do hope the minister will be able to make a careful review of the serious representations which have been made.


Alphonse Fournier: You may be sure I will. However, I do not like a member making comparisons with works at some other place which were justified, when he is pleading (Mr. Browne (St. John's West).]
for his own town. I do not think it is the right approach to the question at all.


William Joseph Browne: It is not my
town, at all.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: He is just enthusiastic.


Léon Balcer: I might tell the minister that I nearly ran a ship on the same rock during the war.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	1
331.	Branch administration, $506,848.
Howard Charles Green: Now, speaking about rocks-


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, don't speak about Ripple rock.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister tell us whether his department has taken any steps recently with regard to the removal of Ripple rock?


Alphonse Fournier: We became discouraged with the project and have dropped it for the time being. I do not know what my successor may do, but for the time being we are not undertaking the removal of that rock.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Architectural branch-
331.	Branch administration, $506,848.
Howard Charles Green: Does the Department of Public Works do any building research work?


Alphonse Fournier: We get "advice from the national research council, and when any research is to be done they handle it.


Howard Charles Green: That is research work in connection with types of buildings.


Alphonse Fournier: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
332.	Ottawa-maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, including repairs, and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $500,000, $12,112,418.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: On a number of occasions I have asked the minister what progress is being made in regard to the abatement of the smoke nuisance in Ottawa.


Alphonse Fournier: A firm in Toronto has developed a system which apparently is successful in that city, and in the near future we may give this system a trial.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am glad the minister is going to do that. Smoke from the heating plant the other side of the supreme court building is not only spoiling the face of that building, it even comes into this building and dirties things up quite a lot. It is a shame that a beautiful city like Ottawa should be faced with such a smoke nuisance. Is anything

being done with regard to parking facilities back of the supreme court building?


Alphonse Fournier: Not long ago a bill was passed in the house to control traffic and parking on government property, and regulations will be passed under that bill by the governor in council.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I was referring to the improvement of the parking space at the back of the supreme court building. The number of cars is increasing every day, and I am wondering if some improvement could not be made.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall ask my officials to look into that.


Solon Earl Low: I do not want to cause the minister any trouble, because he has plenty, but I should like to know what progress is being made with the public building at Grande Prairie. Is it expected to have the building completed this year?


Alphonse Fournier: A contract was let on September 12, 1951, to the Poole Construction Company Limited of Edmonton, who were the lowest tenderer at $207,283. There were three tenders, the highest being at $249,000. I do not know the present state of the construction, but the contract was let some time ago.


Solon Earl Low: I understand that they are making good progress with the building. I notice it was necessary to revote $25,000 of last year's appropriation.


Alphonse Fournier: They have not reached the stage where progress payments are justified for that amount and we have to carry it over as a revote.


Solon Earl Low: I was merely wondering if there was any hope that it would be completed this _ year. I want to thank the minister for having made that appropriation. The building was certainly justified. Has the minister received any recommendation with respect to a post office building at Fairview?


Alphonse Fournier: We get requests from the Post Office Department graded A, B, C and D according to urgency, and we generally follow their advice.


Howard Charles Green: This vote covers a rather substantial amount, over $12 million for the maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds in Ottawa, and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $500,000. Why is that provision included?


Mr, Fournier (Hull):: If we undertake works and order goods which cannot be delivered during the fiscal year we must commit the government, but those commitments are
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limited to $500,000. The comptroller of the treasury checks every commitment we make and when we reach a certain amount we are not permitted to go any further.


Howard Charles Green: Is that over and above the amount of the vote?


Alphonse Fournier: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: The details on page 392
indicate an increase in repairs and upkeep of buildings, including materials required therefor, from $1,537,050 to $2,561,005. Why is there such a large increase?


Alphonse Fournier: We are making some repairs to buildings that have been neglected. In fact there have been accidents because buildings were not in good repair. This year there is an unusually heavy program of repairs and upkeep of buildings in Ottawa and this allotment has been increased by $1,023,955. Included in this increase is an amount of $345,000 for repairs of stonework, cornices and pointing of various buildings. There is also a good deal of work to be done in the parliament buildings, including extensive repairs to plumbing, pointing, stonework, the roof and electrical work. A considerable number of alterations and repairs to buildings will be necessary when new buildings are completed and vacated space is reassigned. We are making some expenditures this year and this increase is due to the fact that many buildings were far from being in a good state of repair. We have even had some serious accidents on account of the condition of the buildings, and it was thought this was an appropriate time to make repairs.


Howard Charles Green: Then there is an increase in rentals in Ottawa from $1,175,000 to $1,560,000. That is an increase of about $400,000 in rents for one year.


Alphonse Fournier: An increase of


Howard Charles Green: Why was that increase
necessary?


Alphonse Fournier: Provision for rents has been increased by $385,000 to cover twelve new leases and increases in eighteen existing leases. The allotment for acquisition of equipment and repairs to equipment has been increased by $68,300. The allotment for light, power and water has been increased by $133,215 to provide for new buildings now nearing completion. The allotment for taxes on diplomatic properties has been increased by $10,000. The allotment for freight, express and cartagd has been increased by $3,000 and the allotment for rental of sound reinforcing equipment for
3732

Supply-Public Works
the House of Commons for the next six months is an amount of $3,750. The total amount is $603,265.


Howard Charles Green: Increase?


Alphonse Fournier: Increase.


Howard Charles Green: With respect to the sound reinforcing equipment for the House of Commons, does that mean the loudspeaker system for the house? When is that to be installed?


Alphonse Fournier: The moment we can get out of the house. I am told they are making the castings for the loudspeaking and receiving microphones which will be on each desk. I understood they will start work a [DOT] week or ten days after prorogation. On Tuesday at one o'clock we even had a meeting of Mr. Speaker's committee at which the chief architect of my department gave explanations.


Howard Charles Green: Is it the intention to have the system installed for next session?


Alphonse Fournier: That is in the contract, and they have assured us everything will be ready for the next session, whenever that will be.


Howard Charles Green: What will be the cost of that installation? I do not see it anywhere in the estimates.


Alphonse Fournier: The installation cost is $35,000. I have not the contract here, but I recall that I tabled and read a part of the contract that was entered into with Tannoy of London, England, and Cossor of Halifax, their agent. When we negotiated the deal for the installation, maintenance and operation of this system they undertook to have it ready for the next session.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister tell us the approximate cost?


Alphonse Fournier: The cost of installation is $35,000 or $37,000. We are paying a rental of $7,500 a year and we pay for the operators, but they have the whole responsibility of maintaining the system in a good state of repair and operating it to the satisfaction, we hope, of the majority of the members.


Howard Charles Green: What is meant by this item for taxes on diplomatic properties?


Alphonse Fournier: Ever since we have had an external affairs service we have paid the city taxes on their properties and they reciprocate in the countries where we have ambassadors or ministers.


George Harris Hees: I should like to ask the minister a question I have been wanting to ask ever since I came here. Why is it necessary to cover up the windows of this chamber with canvas so that even on a bright day the inside of the chamber resembles the inside of a tomb? Why can we not take the canvas off and have a little sunshine?


Alphonse Fournier: It was recommended years and years ago to help the acoustics of the chamber. I am told when the canvas is not there the acoustics are far worse than they are now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
333.	Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $800,000, $18,273,243.
Howard Charles Green: This is another large item of over $18 million with an increase of almost $2,500,000. Will the minister give some explanation of the increase?


Alphonse Fournier: This is the maintenance item. There is an increase of $2,432,228. Statutory increases in salaries amount to $60,789; reclassifications, $9,520; increases in prevailing rates, $101,674; positions not provided for in 1951-52, $59,401; salary revisions (underestimated 1951-52),	$139,354;
positions omitted in 1951-52, $11,399; increases in rates of pay effective December 1, 1951, $303,000. There is an increase in the allotment for the purchase of office furniture including desks, chairs, tables, filing cabinets for all government departments. The allotment of $850,000 requested for 1952-53 is an estimate based on expenditures for the fiscal year 1951-52. Then there is an amount of $20,000 for telephones and telegrams, $13,000 for, postage, $40,000 for freight, express and cartage and $85,000 for moving government departments and services.


Mr. MacLean (Queens):: Under this item I see that expenditures in Prince Edward Island have decreased from $624,799 in 195152 to $171,000 for the coming year. Would the minister explain the reason for that?


Alphonse Fournier: Probably we had more repair work last year. We have made those repairs and this year we need less repairs. I have only one thing in mind in that province now, the public building in Charlottetown. Whenever we can erect it we will also have to increase the amount to maintain it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-
334.	Newfoundland, $700,000.
William Joseph Browne: Can the
minister tell me the estimated total cost of the public building at Bonavista? It must be nearly finished now.


Alphonse Fournier: The contract was awarded on the 1st February, 1951, by public tender. The lowest tender was made by the North Shore Construction Company in the amount of $257,232. The highest tender was $387,450. It goes without saying that we gave the contract to the lowest tenderer.


William Joseph Browne: Is $257,000 the amount that will be spent?


Alphonse Fournier: It is a firm price contract. That is the price of the contract.


William Joseph Browne: Have there been any extras in connection with that building since the contract was awarded?


Alphonse Fournier: I have nothing in my book for extras.


William Joseph Browne: There is $272,000 provided now. That is $15,000 over the amount the minister mentioned.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that outside of the contract, which did not cover the grading and the fixing of the grounds, this amount is to be used.


William Joseph Browne: The other question I have to ask is: What is the position with regard to the customs building? There was $100,000 voted last year and that sum is revoted now.


Alphonse Fournier: That is in St. John's?


William Joseph Browne: In St. John's.


Alphonse Fournier: Proposed work and estimated cost; pending final selection of site, plans and specifications for the proposed building have not yet been delivered and full cost for the entire building is not yet available. However it is estimated that $100,000 will be sufficient to meet the requirements for 1952-53 for site and plans. This is requested by customs, and I am told that we have not bought the site as yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
335.	Nova Scotia, $1,250,000.
Clarence Gillis: I would like to ask the minister a question on this item. In the details on
Supply-Public Works
page 396 there is a revote of $15,000 and also an item of $100,000. I would like to ask the minister if that is an appropriation for the beginning of a public building at Sydney, Nova Scotia. Whether or not I will pursue the subject further depends on his answer.


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is to provide toward the erection of a proposed new public building to accommodate post office, customs, and mounted police. The existing building, which was erected in 1889, is in poor condition throughout and does not provide sufficient space for post office and customs. Total estimated cost is divided as follows: site $28,000; building, $430,000; supervision and contingencies, $42,000-these are estimates, amounting to nearly a half a million dollars.


Clarence Gillis: I want to thank the minister for that information; but I would suggest that while he states it is to house the post office and the customs, in addition there are about four other federal department offices in that city for which you pay rental of $50,000 a year. You might as well make the building big enough to house all those federal offices under one roof.


Alphonse Fournier: We will consider that.


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: I am interested In these appropriations for Nova Scotia. I have two main complaints, one of which is that some of the localities have been looking for public buildings and no provision appears to have been made for them. I refer to such places as Pugwash, River Hebert, and Wallace. I also take some objection to the delay in getting these buildings constructed. They have been in the estimates in previous years and appear in the estimates being passed by the committee, at the present time, yet no headway is apparently being made. There is the item just referred to by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, and there are other appropriations here; but it does not seem to me that the department is considering the erection of those public buildings.
I would like to ask the minister how many of those projects are actually under construction or under contract at the present time. Fourteen of them were apparently lifted, and the total vote is $1,610,000. I would ask the minister how many of those projects are actually under construction at the present time or on how many is it expected that work will be started in the summer of 1952.


Alphonse Fournier: The first one is the
Antigonish public building. That one is not under contract yet. Next is the Bridgewater public building. That one is under contract to Rodney Contractors Limited, $83,095.
55704-236J

Supply-Public Works
Next is Halifax-addition and alterations to customs building. Sketch plans were prepared and those were approved by the customs division. When these estimates were being prepared contract plans and specifications were nearly complete, and an early call for tenders was anticipated.


Percy Chapman Black: Do I understand tenders are being called for the Halifax customs building?


Alphonse Fournier: No, plans are being prepared.


Percy Chapman Black: My complaint is that $100,000 was provided last year but no progress has been made, and that amount is now being revoted by this committee. The request is being made that it be revoted. I would ask the minister why when that sum of $100,000 was provided last year no headway was made.


Alphonse Fournier: I would not say no
headway has been made. Plans and specifications are being prepared.


Mr. Dickey:: As I have some personal knowledge of this matter perhaps I might say a word. This vote which is for $250,000- $100,000 being a revote-is for addition and alterations to the customs annex building at Halifax. This is a building that is used in connection with the reception of very large numbers of immigrants coming into this country through the port of Halifax. The building is located on national harbours board property and is in the vicinity of the sea wall-piers 20, 21, and 22-and in the vicinity also of the Canadian National Railway station at Halifax and the freight yards in the area of the station.
.The delays which have been occasioned are regretted I know by this department, by the department of customs and also by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. However, having been in constant communication with the three departments mentioned, I know the reason for the delay has been the difficulty in getting agreement with respect to the location and actual addition to the customs annex building, the relocation of the railway tracks in the area, and provision of the necessary facilities without unduly hindering the other activities of the national harbours board and the Canadian National Railways. They have been difficult problems and I know that certainly the Department of Public Works has not been solely responsible for the delay.
I am glad to say that I think all of these difficulties have been ironed out and work is going ahead.


William Alfred Robinson: Shall the item carry?
IMr. Fournier (Hull).]


Percy Chapman Black: No. Does the minister have some further information to give us respecting these other projects in Nova Scotia?


Alphonse Fournier: The postal station at Armdale-


Percy Chapman Black: That has now been before the house for several years.


Alphonse Fournier: I have a note here that tenders were supposed to be called for that in June, but as we are nearly through June I expect he will be calling for them in July. There is the Rockhead immigration hospital, alterations and repairs, $150,000, to complete the contract of T. P. Lusby and Company Limited, at $152,085. The next one is the workshop and storage building, $50,000.


Percy Chapman Black: Will the minister state what kind of repairs and improvements were made to the Rockhead immigration
hospital?


Alphonse Fournier: Here is what I have. Strong representations were received from the Department of National Health and Welfare with regard to the urgent need for extensive alterations and additions to the plumbing, heating and ventilation systems at the Rockhead hospital. Plans and specifications were prepared and a contract was awarded in October, 1951, the expenditure in 1951-52 being chargeable to the vote for maintenance and operation. An order in council dated October 3,	1951, granted
authority to enter into a contract with the lower tenderer, T. P. Lusby Company at Halifax. There were two tenders. One was $152,085, and the other was $162,260. I understand this work is proceeding.


Percy Chapman Black: Can the minister state the names of the two tenderers?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. One was T. P.
Lusby and Company Limited, which had the lower tender of $152,085. The second was Barrett and O'Regan, who had a tender of $162,260.72.


Percy Chapman Black: What about this other proposal for the public building in Liverpool, $100,000? Is it proposed to proceed with that?


Alphonse Fournier: A site for the proposed building, known as the Elmwood hotel property, on Main street, was acquired in 1948 through War Assets Corporation. The existing building was erected in 1898-99. It is proposed to erect a two-storey structure, 70 feet wide by 80 feet long, with basement, concrete foundations, masonry walls, brick

lacing, stone trim and felt and gravel roofing. The total construction cost is estimated at $190,000 for the building, $12,000 for boxes and fittings, $5,000 for grading and sidewalks, $3,000 for supervision and $15,000 for contingencies, the total estimated cost being $225,000. This year we have asked for $100,000. This building is for the customs and excise division and the Post Office Department; and we have not asked for tenders as yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
336.	Prince Edward Island, $175,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The hon. member for Queens has mentioned it before, but I just want to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that out of nearly $35 million for new buildings, Prince Edward Island receives only $175,000. It seems to be a very small amount, but when the minister builds the new public works building down there, it might be all right. We may have a bigger item next year.


John Angus MacLean: In connection with item 336, I presume the plans have already been drawn for the proposed public building in Charlottetown?


Alphonse Fournier: We have not taken on a firm of architects. We shall have to have an outside firm, and I am consulting on that. This $50,000 goes for that.


John Angus MacLean: Could consideration be given to the advisability of providing a separate building for the offices of the Department of Agriculture, which I believe were supposed to be housed in this building? If a separate building could be provided adjacent to the new science services building somewhere near the experimental farm, it might provide for greater efficiency in the department.


Alphonse Fournier: We can consider that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
33S. Quebec, $9,741,000.
(Translation):
Mr. Denis:: I understand this includes an expenditure for the construction of a post office:	Youville station in Montreal. Could
the minister tell me whether the site chosen is still the same and if the work is to be undertaken soon?


Alphonse Fournier: This is a property situated at the corner of Cremazie boulevard and Drolet street, consisting of six subdivisions of lot No. 2643, comprising subdivisions Nos. 2368 and 2369 belonging to Mr. H. Cam-peau and purchased at a cost of $6,462, subdivision No. 2367, belonging to Mrs. Bernadette Laframboise and purchased at a cost of $4,374, and subdivisions Nos. 2370, 2371 and 2372, belonging to Mr. Gerard Bouthillier and purchased for $38,585.
Supply-Public Works
The post office will be erected on these lots.


Azellus Denis: Thank you.
(Text):


Léon Balcer: There is an item for a public building in Joliette, for which there is a vote of $155,000. Is that the same building for which a contract was awarded without tender?


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, no. That is what you are saying in the province, but we did ask for tenders.


Léon Balcer: That is not what the auditor
general said.


Alphonse Fournier: The auditor general said we did ask for tenders, and then we extended the building at the request of the Post Office Department. I know what is being said about that building in my province. It was mentioned at a meeting in Joliette not long ago. I know the whole story about it. This amount is required to complete the contract with Alphonse Gratton Incorporated for the construction of an addition and for alterations to the public building at Joliette. The work under contract was requested by the deputy postmaster general who reports that the provision of additional space for postal purposes at Joliette is most urgent, as the post office is now overcrowded and congested. The addition to the building will provide additional space for the postal and customs services, and accommodation for the unemployment insurance commission, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Department of Agriculture.
The work under contract consists of the construction of a basement and two-storey addition approximately 87 feet by 78 feet and extensive alterations to the existing building. The original amount of the contract was $179,182. The mounted police and the unemployment insurance commission, when we started that building, asked for an addition, the authorization for which was given at the same unit prices to the same contractor for $186,049. The addition to the site was purchased by expropriation at a cost of $41,000. Supervision and contingencies amounted to $18,381. The plans were prepared for post office use, and the mounted police and unemployment insurance had their offices there. Here we have complied with the principle of centralizing our offices which was mentioned tonight by the member for Cape Breton South. The same contractor, at the same unit prices, extended the building to house the mounted police and unemployment insurance offices. There has been more noise about that building than any other in the country.


Léon Balcer: I wonder if the minister has read the report of the auditor general about this?

Supply-Public Works


Alphonse Fournier: The auditor general took it as an extra. If I had been a witness before the auditor general I would have explained that the same unit prices were extended by the same contract. We could not ask for tenders, because the first portion of the wall that was there would not exist with this extension and we got about the best conditions a man could get. This tender was the lowest when we called for public tenders.
(Translation):


Mr. Langlois (Gaspe):: Moreover, the building did not fall, as did the Three Rivers bridge.
(Text):


Léon Balcer: The fact remains that the auditor general criticized the department for giving a contract without calling for tenders.


Alphonse Fournier: The auditor general is a friend of mine, and he is a high official. I receive his opinion and I even ask his advice. He has his officials in my own department under the comptroller of the treasury. We do not move without seeing these people. The law forbids us to do so. My practical advisers have told me, in this instance, that in the public interest we could not ask for tenders for this extension whilst the first contract was under way. Sometimes I should like to take everybody's advice except that of my own advisers; but I cannot see how I would run the department if 1 did not follow their advice in technical matters at least.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
339. Ottawa, $7,945,000.
Mr. Fleming:: There are several features of this item concerning which I should like to ask the minister certain questions. I think 1 might as well deal with them all together while I am on my feet.
The item proposes works within the city of Ottawa totalling approximately $8 million. This will mean more buildings owned by the crown in the right of the dominion within the city of Ottawa, thus creating a greater burden on the municipality in the way of providing services. In view of this increase in federal buildings in Ottawa I should like to ask the minister whether any increase is contemplated in the present federal grant to the city of Ottawa. That is the first question.
The second matter has to do with an item on page 399, "Sound reinforcement system for the House of Commons, $35,000" of which $15,000 is a revote. Can the minister tell the committee what progress is being made with that interesting project which has been on foot for so long?


Howard Charles Green: He gave that information.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am told that the minister made a statement on that matter earlier.

The third matter arises out of the fact that a good many of the items here are works to be undertaken for other departments. I take it that in no case is any of this property to be taken under lease. It raises a point which was before the public accounts committee at a meeting last week, when the deputy minister of public works appeared in connection with several items in the report of the auditor general. In the course of his testimony he expressed the opinion that in this respect the present system, which has been in vogue for a long time, is not sound, and that it would be much better if all the departments were charged rent on the property they occupy. He expressed the opinion that by such procedure there would be a much truer accounting as between different departments, in the first place, and in the second place there would be more of a check against departments asking for or retaining space beyond their strict requirements.
The fourth matter I should like to mention under this item relates to work of the department in connection with research. I am aware that earlier this evening the minister stated that all research work for the department was done by the national research council and that none is done within his own department. My information-and I have no doubt as to its accuracy-is that there is research work carried on over here in the west block; my information is that there is a branch there which carries on research work in connection with concrete, for instance.


Alphonse Fournier: It is a testing
laboratory.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not believe it is confined to concrete, either.


Alphonse Fournier: It is not a research branch. It is a testing laboratory for public works. It is not for research.


Donald Methuen Fleming: All right. It is your testing laboratory.


Alphonse Fournier: That's right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If my information is correct, that testing work could be carried on just as well and more economically by the national research council.


Alphonse Fournier: Don't take anything away from me.	[DOT]


Donald Methuen Fleming: That particular branch in the department is increasing in size; it is increasing in the number of persons employed. If he will, I should like the minister to tell the committee just why it should be necessary to have a testing laboratory in his own department when the national research council has facilities and extremely capable people who are fully equipped and thoroughly skilled to carry on that work without this unnecessary duplication.


Alphonse Fournier: Let us speak like two experts. I am told that in the national research council they have no testing laboratories. We have one. Tonight the plea was made that I should not divest myself of the activities that come under my department. Now an hon. member wants me to throw out this testing laboratory.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I want the minister to eliminate duplication.


Alphonse Fournier: This is what I am told; and may I say that I did not visit the national research council. As I am telling the hon. member, I follow advice. I am told by my deputy that they have not the testing facilities at the national research council for these classes of materials. If those facilities do not exist there, there cannot be duplication. We need some testing place with our own engineers and officials. But if the hon. member is right-and I will get further information-I am still ready to hand that laboratory over, if the hon. member for Van-couver-Quadra agrees that I should continue to give out work.
Then as to grants with regard to the increase of buildings in Ottawa, that is a special statute which comes under the Minister of Finance. It is a formula devised by some financial experts. I know about it because I happen to live in this district and my town probably would fall under that formula or under that grant; but I think the question would be better directed to the Minister of Finance. I really would not want to take it upon myself to give an answer, because I do not know enough about it.
As to the loud speakers, we had quite a full explanation given. A contract was signed with Tannoy of London, England, to instal here a system similar to that in Westminster. That was in accordance with a report made by a committee under Mr. Speaker. Their agents in Canada are Cossor (Canada) Limited. They are actually casting microphones and loudspeakers. I am told that some days after prorogation of this session they will get to work doing the wiring and installing the system which will be ready for the opening of the next session. The installation of the system will cost the government $35,000. They will put in the system, maintain it and operate it. We will pay the operators and rental fee; we are not purchasing the installation. We are paying a rental of $7,500 a year. The contract was tabled some days after it was signed, at the beginning of this session.


Donald Methuen Fleming: When is it expected that the work will be completed and the system will be in operation?


Alphonse Fournier: They have assured us that it will be ready for the next session.
Supply-Public Works


Donald Methuen Fleming: When is that going to be? This is extremely interesting. We might kill two birds with one stone here, Mr. Chairman. I hope the minister is not going to call a fall session. I am not asking for that much speed in connection with the installation.


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, I do not fix the date of the opening or of prorogation.
1 am trying to fix the date of prorogation but I am having a great deal of trouble right now.


Mr. Hansell:: In connection with the amplifying system here I want to make only one suggestion, although perhaps it is too late now. I hope those who are installing the system do not clutter up this chamber with a number of wires hanging from the ceiling.
I happen to have been in the British House of Commons during the past year. While they have an amplifying system there, I believe they have largely spoiled their chamber.


Alphonse Fournier: I may tell the hon. member that this matter really does not come under my jurisdiction. Mr. Speaker went over to Britain and visited the House of Commons there. He had a committee. They made a report to the House of Commons here, and it was concurred in. All I am doing is following out what was concurred in by the House of Commons.


George Harris Hees: We rely on the minister, though.


Ernest George Hansell: The minister has no need to hold up his own estimates. I am simply suggesting something that I do not want to happen here. While I am on my feet I should like to ask the minister if his department has considered modernizing the elevator system in the House of Commons.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Hear, hear.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told an investigation was made concerning elevators, and I am told further that there is an amount in the supplementary estimates. When it was discussed last I thought we would begin by making one or two changes. We cannot replace them all at one time. The changes will be made in the electrical equipment and controls. I am told that the moment the vote in the supplementary estimates is passed work will begin on the changes in connection with the electrical equipment and controls.


Percy Chapman Black: All hon. members are interested in national buildings. What national buildings are under construction or are proposed at the present time? I would point out to the minister the advisability of deciding on the stone to be used. The province of Nova Scotia has been interested in this matter for many years. The trim of these parliament buildings-the tower, the windows, the doors, and the like-is of
3738	HOUSE OF
Supply-Public Works
Wallace stone. The same applies in the museum building, Confederation building, and several other government buildings. There is no question whatever as to the high quality of that stone. I would ask the minister as to the material being used in the larger buildings in this capital city.


Alphonse Fournier: Offhand I could not make a statement with respect to the stone going into those buildings. I would have to ask for a report from my officials, and I would be prepared to communicate that report to the hon. member. But when he asks me for a statement as to the different kinds of stone which will be employed in the buildings, I cannot answer him. Although I have some capabilities, I do not think I could go that far.


Percy Chapman Black: The matter is so important I would expect the minister to be familiar with it. I would be pleased to have him give us the assurance that due consideration will be given to continuing the use of Wallace stone as it has been used in previous years by architects in his department, in connection with other buildings in Ottawa.


Alphonse Fournier: I will keep my hon. friend informed. Architects generally advise us as to the stone to be used in certain buildings. I do not have very much to say about it because, though the hon. member thinks I should know a good deal about stone, I admit that I do not. If after looking at specifications I think the architect is right in his plans, I rarely raise a question as to the kind of stone to be used, either as to its source or quality. I must say that I throw up the sponge; I do not know enough about stone to discuss it, really.


Percy Chapman Black: I would ask the minister to look into the question of the quality of stone to be used in buildings of this kind.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall do that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister dealt with several of the matters I mentioned briefly a moment ago, but he did not deal with the evidence given recently by his deputy minister before the public accounts committee concerning the matter of charging the different departments rent for the space occupied by them.


Alphonse Fournier: That question has been discussed many times in the last ten years. To date the government policy has been to follow the statute which places all public buildings under the control of the Department of Public Works. We meet the


requests of the different departments for their needs.
To establish another branch of the department in which we would charge each department for rental would require an extension of activities. Perhaps it would be a good thing, so far as the other departments are concerned, if they could come to the House of Commons and ask for rent when they present their estimates, but we would have to have some organization to control that. It would simply be a matter of taking money from one pocket and putting it into another. Thus far, and since confederation, the Department of Public Works has provided space for the offices and facilities of other departments. This involves a question of policy which, up to now, has not been changed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the minister will read the evidence tendered by his deputy minister before the committee on public accounts a week or so ago he will find in it a very strong condemnation of the present policy, and a strong advocacy of a change in that policy with a view to accomplishing two results: first, truer accounting among different departments of government as to their cost to the public treasury and, second, providing some check upon the demands of departments either for new space or for the retention of space beyond their requirements.


Alphonse Fournier: My deputy tells me that he never interferes with government policy. He advises me as to what he thinks best, but policy is decided by the government. As a respectful civil servant he has not tried to dictate policy to the government; at least he has not done so during the ten years he has been with me.
However, there is some good in what he said before that committee, as to the matter of accounting, knowing exactly about expenditures, and how these departments are run. But until the government changes its policy the Department of Public Works must conform to the statute and administer the act the way it is now written.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Some hon. Members:: Eleven o'clock.
Progress reported.


BANKING AND COMMERCE
[Stage Direction]
Ninth and tenth reports of standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Cleaver.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Supply
[The following items were passed in committee of supply on Tuesday, June 24, 1952]:

[Stage Direction]
80.	To provide capital assistance for the construction, acquisition, extension or improvement of capital equipment or works by private contractors engaged in defence contracts, or by crown plants operated on a management-fee basis, or by crown companies under direction of the Minister of Defence Production, subject to approval of treasury board, $85,000,000.
81.	To provide for the liquidation of contracts, including commitments of previous years related to the acquisition of assets operated by the Departments of Munitions and Supply and Reconstruction and Supply or an agency of these departments, the liquidation of the assets and liabilities of closed crown companies and crown plants; and for miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses, $150,000.
B-Crown companies-
82.	To provide for expenses incurred by Defence Construction Limited in procuring the construction of defence projects on behalf of the Department of National Defence, $3,308,500.
Canadian Arsenals Limited-
83.	Administration and operation, $750,000.
84.	Construction, improvements and new equipment, $1,650,000.
National research council-
295.	Salaries and other expenses, $12,198,684.
296. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment (revote $1,345,000), $3,358,320.
Atomic energy control board-
297.	Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $59,302.
298.	Researches and investigations with respect to atomic energy, $300,000.
Atomic energy project-
299.	Operation and maintenance, $7,089,371.
300. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, and to provide for payment to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for housing and other works to be constructed at Deep River during 1952-53, $3,141,850.
301.	Construction of a new reactor and auxiliary buildings and services (revote $4,300,000), $7,000,000.
684.	To provide capital assistance for the construction, acquisition, extension or improvement of capital equipment or works by private contractors engaged in defence contracts, or by crown plants operated on a management-fee basis, or by crown companies under direction of the Minister of Defence Production, subject to approval of treasury board-further amount required, $25,000,000.
685.	To provide for payment of grants to municipalities in lieu of taxes on crown-owned defence plants operated by private contractors, $250,000.

[Stage Direction]
Exhibitions-
788.	Canadian International Trade Fair, 1953-to provide for preparatory expenses of a Canadian international trade fair in 1953, the remaining amount required to be provided in the main estimates for 1953-54, $319,000.
Canada Grain Act-
Canadian government elevators-
789.	Operation and maintenance expenses-further amount required, $192,909.
Special-
790.	To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Financial Administration Act or any other act or law, for payment out of the consolidated revenue fund to the widow of the late Joseph MacLeod Boyer of an annuity at the rate of $1,248 to commence from February 1, 1952, and to continue during her lifetime, $1,456.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply on Wednesday, June 25, 1952]:

[Stage Direction]
Defence services-
248.	To provide for the Canadian forces, the defence research board and other expenditures relating to defence, including contributions toward the military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and notwithstanding section thirty of the Financial Admininstration Act, to authorize total commitments for the foregoing purposes of $3,988,568,232 regardless of the year in which such commitments will come in course of payment (of which it is estimated that $2,346,221,325 will come due for payment in future years); and to provide for the estimated actual expenditures in the fiscal year 1952-53, $1,642,346,907.
Special-
249.	To authorize and provide for additional expenditures under the provisions of section 3 of the Defence Appropriation Act, 1950, and supplementary contributions toward the military costs of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, in the amount of $324 million and commitments against future years in the amount of $32,550,000, $324,000,000.
General services-
250.	Grants to military associations, institutes and others, as detailed in the estimates, $227,325.
251.	War museum, $22,518.
Pensions and other benefits-
252.	Civil pensions, as detailed in the estimates, $2,977.
253.	To authorize in respect of members of the Royal Canadian Air Force on leave without pay and serving as instructors with civilian training organizations operating the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan who were killed, payments to their dependents of amounts equal to the amounts such dependents would have received under the Pension Act, as amended, had such service as instructors been military service in the armed forces of Canada, less the value of any benefits received by such dependents under insurance contracts which were effected on the lives of such members of the Royal Canadian Air Force by or at the expense of the civilian organizations, $2,172.
Defence Services Pension Act-
254.	Government's contribution to the permanent services pension account, $30,008,601.

[Stage Direction]
527.	Departmental administration, $2,217,425.
528.	District services-administration, $2,867,375.
529.	Veterans' welfare services, $3,355,306. Treatment services-
530.	Operation of hospitals and administration, $37,828,001.
531.	Medical research and education, $350,000.
532.	Hospital construction, improvements, new equipment and acquisition of land, $4,865,050.
[Stage Direction]
Supply
533.	Prosthetic services-supply, manufacture and administration, $1,056,117.
Canadian pension commission-
534.	Administration expenses, $2,166,655.
535.	Veterans bureau, $517,075.
536.	War veterans allowance boards-administration, $178,347.
537.	Veterans' insurance, $97,024.
Pensions and other benefits-
538.	Pensions for disability and death, including pensions granted under the authority of the civilian government employees (war) compensation order P.C. 45/8848 of 22nd November, 1944, which shall be subject to the Pension Act, $125,546,000.
539.	Newfoundland special awards, $30,000.
540.	War veterans allowances, $22,505,000.
541.	Assistance fund (war veterans' allowances), $950,000.
542.	Unemployment assistance, $25,000.
543.	Hospital and other allowances, $3,225,000.
544.	Gallantry awards-world war II, $18,000. Miscellaneous payments-
545.	To provide for payments to the imperial war graves commission, for battlefields memorials and erection of headstones in Canada (formerly provided for in Department of National Defence appropriations) and for payments to the Last Post fund, maintenance of departmental cemeteries, payments of funerals and cemetery charges including costs of headstones and cemetery plots, $1,638,655.
546.	Employers liability compensation, $180,000.
547.	Grant to Canadian Legion, $9,000.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
548.	To provide for the cost of administration of Veterans Land Act; soldier settlement and British family settlement, $4,780,354.
549.	To provide for the upkeep of property, Veterans Land Act, including engineering and other investigational planning expenses that do not add tangible value to real property taxes, insurance and maintenance of public utilities, $77,000.
550.	To provide for the payment of grants to veterans settled on provincial lands in accordance with agreements with provincial governments under section 35 of the Veterans Land Act, 1942, as amended, and payment of grants to veterans settled on dominion lands, in accordance with an agreement with the Minister of Resources and Development under section 35 of the Veterans Land Act, 1942, as amended, $600,000.
551.	To provide for the payment of grants to Indian veterans settled on Indian reserve lands under section 35A of the Veterans Land Act, 1942, as amended, $175,000.
552.	To provide for the reduction of indebtedness to the director of soldier settlement of a settler under the Soldier Settlement Act, in respect of a property in his possession, the title of which is held by the director, by an amount which will reduce his indebtedness to an amount in keeping with the productive capacity of the property and his ability to repay his indebtedness to the director, under regulations approved by the governor in council, $150,000.
553.	To authorize and provide, subject to the approval of the governor in council, for necessary remedial work on properties constructed under individual firm price contracts and sold under the Veterans Land Act to correct defects for which neither the veteran nor the contractor can be held financially responsible and for such other work on other properties as may be required to protect the interest of the director therein, $15,000.
554.	To authorize and provide, subject to the approval of the governor in council in each case, for the completion of necessary remedial work to houses and services constructed under the 1945 building program, $16,700.
Terminable services-
555.	Post discharge rehabilitation benefits, including the training of merchant seamen and salt water fishermen pensioners, $3,677,500.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
561.	To provide for protection of security-soldier settlement, and refunds of surplus to veterans, $25,000.
562.	To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment, refund of surplus to veterans (section 19); and for protection of security under the Veterans Land Act, $18,000,000.
Pensions and other benefits-
816.	War veterans allowances-further amount required, $5,850,000.
817.	Gallantry awards-world war II and special force-further amount required, $3,000.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
818.	To authorize the expenditure of funds provided under vote 552 of the 1952-53 main estimates for the reduction of indebtedness to the director of soldier settlement of a settler in respect of a property in his possession, the title of which is held by the director, or such soldier settler loans which are administered by the Indian Affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, by an amount which will reduce his indebtedness to an amount in keeping with the productive capacity of the property or his ability to repay his indebtedness under regulations approved by the governor in council, $1.
Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-
821. To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; refund of surplus to veterans (section 19); and for protection of security under the Veterans Land Act-further amount required, $2,500,000.

[Stage Direction]
330.	Departmental administration, $584,997. Architectural branch-[DOT]
331.	Branch administration, $506,848.
332.	Ottawa-maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, including repairs, and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $500,000, $12,112,418.
333.	Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc., and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $800,000, $18,273,243.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-
334.	Newfoundland, $700,000.
335.	Nova Scotia, $1,250,000.
336.	Prince Edward Island, $175,000.
337.	New Brunswick, $1,130,000.
338.	Quebec, $9,741,000.
339.	Ottawa, $7,945,000.

[Stage Direction]
Orders, decorations and medals awarded officers and men of the Canadian forces for gallantry or outstanding service in the Far East

[Stage Direction]
Number	Rank	Name	Previous Decorations	Unit at Time of Award	Residence Prior to Enrolment	Present Location0-8900	Brock, Jeffrey Vanstone	DSC, CD	RCN	National Defence College, Kingston.

[Stage Direction]
0-45770			Madgwick, Edward, Thomas, George.		RCN		Shoreham by the Sea, Sussex, Eng.	"Bytown" Ottawa, Ont.
						
0-14820			Collier, Andrew, Lawrence.		RCN			"Stadacona" Halifax, N.S.

[Stage Direction]
0-76950				DSC, CD		RCN		
		Phillip.

[Stage Direction]
21480-E		Chief Petty Officer (First Class).	Pearson, Douglas James		RCN			''Naden" Esquimalt, B.C.
						
6625-E		Petty Officer (Second Class).			RCN			"Naden" Esquimalt, B.C.
						
4194-H		Petty Officer (Second Class).			RCN		Halifax, N.S		"Stadacona" Halifax, N.S.
						
0-8900.

[Stage Direction]
Brock, Jeffrey, Vanstone.	DSC, CD		RCN			National Defence College, Kingston.
					
	Taylor, Paul Dalrymple.		RCN			"Niagara" Washington, D.C.
					
3742	HOUSE OF COMMONS
0-76950	Commander	Welland, Robert,	DSC, CD	RCN	"Stadacona" Halifax, N.S. "Stadacona" Halifax, N.S. "Athabaskan" Far East. "Stadacona" Halifax, N.S. "Stadacona" Halifax, N.S. "Stadacona" Halifax, N.S. "Stadacona" Halifax, N.S.0-25245	Commander	Phillip. Fraser - Harris	RCN.	HnlifflY N S	0-35175	Commissioned Gunner.	Alexander Beauport Fraser. Hurl, David, William..	RCN	0-18885	Commissioned Engi-	Dear, Edward Victor..	RCN .	40774-H	neer. Chief Petty Officer	Emmerson, Frederick,	RCN...	St. John, N.B	3592-H	(First Class). Chief Petty Officer	Charles. Winter, Reginald	RCN	7524-H	(First Class). Leading Seaman	Roberts, William,	RCN	John.	COMPANION OF THE	CANADIAN ARMY MOST HONOURABLE ORDER OF THE BATH (CB)	ZK 4050	Brigadier	Rockingham, John Meredith.	CBE, DSO, ED...	25 Cdn Inf Bde	Vancouver, B.C	Army Headquarters Ottawa.

[Stage Direction]
Brigadier
Fleury, Frank James...

[Stage Direction]
Canadian Military Mission, Far East.
Montreal, P.Q,
Commander Eastern Quebec Area, Quebec, P.Q.

[Stage Direction]
ZK 107	Colonel	Bailey, Anthony John Beswick.	DSO, ED	2 Regiment, RCHA	Ottawa, Ont	CO Royal Cdn School of Artillery Shilo, Man.ZD 4622	Lieutenant-Colonel	Dextraze, Jacques Alfred.	DSO	2 R 22e R, RCIC	Montreal, P.Q	Cdn Army Staff College Kingston, Ont.ZH 106	Lieutenant-Colonel	Keane, Robert, Angus.	DSO	2 RCR, RCIC	Edmonton, Alta	Army Headquarters Ottawa, Ont.ZB 450	Lieutenant-Colonel	Rochester, Donald, Harvey.	57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn, RCE.	Toronto, Ont	Cdn Army Staff College Kingston, Ont.
OFFICER OF THE MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MOST EXCELLENT ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (OBE)-Cont'd
Number	Rank	Name	Previous Decorations	Unit at Time of Award	Residence Prior to Enrolment	Present LocationZD 1026	Lieutenant-Colonel	Sare, Paul Francis Lionel.	Canadian Military Mission, Far East.	Montreal, P.Q	Army Headquarters Ottawa, Ont.ZK 108	Lieutenant-Colonel	Danby, Ernest Deighton.	DSO	HQ 1 Comwel Div	New Westminster, B.C.	National Defence College Kingston, Ontario.

[Stage Direction]
TM-80874.... zT-znn	Major		George, John Herbert Both well.		1	Battalion, PPCLI, RCIC. 2	Battalion, R22eR, RCIC.	Edmonton, Alta		2 PPCLI, Calgary. 1 Personnel Depot, Halifax.
						
BARS TO THE DISTINGUISHED SERVICE ORDER (DSO)						
ZK-4311		LieutenanUColonel		Stone, James Riley		DSO, MC		2 Battalion, PPCLI, RCIC.	Salmon Arm, B.C		OC. 2 PPCLI, Calgary, Alta.
MEMBER OF THE MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MOST EXCELLENT ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (MBE)						
TH-9140		Captain		Stevenson, Henry, Carson.		RCAMC-Medical Officer, 2 RCR, RCIC.	Minnedosa, Man		Winnipeg Military Hospital.

[Stage Direction]
TH-8894		Mills, John, Graham Wallace.		2 Battalion, PPCLI, RCIC.	Winnipeg, Man		2 PPCLI, Calgary, Alta.
						
ZB-4391		Mastronardi, Edward, John.		2 Battalion, RCR, RCIC.	Toronto, Ont		2 RCR, Petawawa, Ont.
						
ZB-800		Freeborn, Frederick, Roberts.		57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn, RCE.	Edmonton, Alta		57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn, Chilliwack, B.C.
						
3744	HOUSE OF COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Lieutenant
McKinlay, James, George, Clyde.
1 PPCLI, RCIC,
Vancouver, B.C,
11 Personnel Depot, Vancouver, B.C.

[Stage Direction]
Lieutenant.
O'Brennan, Matthew, Terrance.
2 Regiment, RCHA...
Regina, Sask
2 Royal Cdn Horse Artillery, Shilo, Man.

[Stage Direction]
M 800148				2 PPCLI, RCIC			Released: Dauphin, Man.
		Robert.				
H 800021				2 PPCLI, RCIC			Released: 268 Nairn Ave.,
		Allan.				Toronto.
D 801889				2 R 22e R, RCIC		Baie St. Paul, P.Q		4 Personnel Depot,
		Andre.				Montreal, P.Q.
L 800192					Duff, Sask		2 RCR, Petawawa, Ont.
		William.		2 RCR RCIC.		
F 800160				2 RCR, RCIC		Halifax, N.S		
		Edward.				Winnipeg, Man.

[Stage Direction]
D 800999			DCM		2 R 22e R RCIC			
						Montreal, P.Q.

[Stage Direction]
M-800022	2 PPCLI, RCIC	Released: Delburne, Alta.B 801304 ...	2 PPCLI, RCIC	6 Personnel Depot Toronto,Ont.C 800133	King, Allan, Osborne	2 Regiment RCHA....	Kingston, Ont.D 801275	2 Regiment, RCHA....	Martin.	Montreal, P.Q.L-800032	2 Regiment, RCHA....	Ochre River, Man	1 Light Bty, RCA, Shilo,Wilfred.	Man.C-800000	2 RCR, RCIC	Owen Sound, Ont	6 Personnel Depot,Archibald.	Toronto, Ont.
THE MILITARY MEDAL (MM) (Cont'd)
Number	Rank	[DOT]Name	Previous Decorations	Unit at Time of Award	Residence Prior to Enrolment	Present LocationA-800042	Private	Bell, Curtis, Ora	2 RCR, RCIC	2 Personnel Depot, Fredericton, N.B.
B-801683			Rowden, Gordon, George.		2 RCR, RCIC...		G Personnel Depot, Toronto, Ont.
						
B-800926					2 PPCLI, RCIC	Carleton Place, Ont....	Royal Cdn School of Infantry, Borden, Ont.
						
E-800043					2 R 22e R, RCIC		3 Personnel Depot, Quebec, P.Q.
						
D-801131					2 R 22e R, RCIC ..	Granby, P.Q		4 Personnel Depot, Montreal, P.Q.
						
SE-800150	2 R 22e R RCIC	2 R 22e R, Valcartier, P.Q. 6 Personnel Depot, Toronto, Ont.B-800203	Private	2 RCR, RCIC .	
G-800518					RCASC, Attached to 25 Cdn Fd Amb, RCAMC.	Moncton, N.B		2 Personnel Depot, Fredericton, N.B.
						
M-800036		Private		Barwise, Kenneth, Francis.		2 PPCLI, RCIC		2 PPCLI, Calgary, Alta.
						
SD-800167		Lance-Bombardier		Dorman, Francis, Merton.		2 Regiment, RCHA...	St. Eustache-sur-le-Lac, P.Q.	UN Forces, Far East.
						
SE-6576					2 R 22e R, RCIC	Ste. Angele de Merici, P.Q.	1 R 22e R, Far East.

[Stage Direction]
M-800366	Lance-Corporal	McCreary, Herbert, John.	57 Ind Fd Sqn, RCE..	'Treherne, Man	8 Personnel Depot, Winnipeg, Man.SH-237	Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant.	Eveleigh, Douglas, Fred.	"C" Squadron, LdSH (RC), RCAC.	Virden, Man	25 Cdn Rft Gp, Far East.3746	HOUSE OF COMMONSSF-800173	Sergeant	Parker, James, Willard.	25 Cdn Fd Amb, RCAMC.	1 Personnel Depot, Halifax, N.S.
SG-9020		Staff-Sergeant		Clouston, Byron		25 Cdn Inf Bde RCA SC.		HQ 25 Cdn Inf Bde, Far East.
		Clifford.				
MENTION-IN-DESPATCHES (MID)						
SD-109658		Sergeant		Taylor, Frank		RCAMC Attached to 2 PPCLI, RCIC.		Camp Headquarters Petawawa, Ont.
		Henry William.				
B-801433	Private	Kawanami, Masao	2 PPCLI RCIC	25 Cdn Rft Gp, Far East. Next-of-Kin: Mrs. M. C. Dube (Wife) 338 Champlain St. St. Jean, P.Q.ZE-1110	Major	Dube, Joseph Leopold Yvan (deceased).	9 R R RCTC	Three Rivers, P.Q	
ZK-9686		Captain		MacGillivray, Charles Allan.		2 Regiment, RCHA...		Instructional & Administrative Cadre, Winnipeg, Man.
						
ZE-4132		Lieutenant 		Plouffe, Joseph		2 R 22e R RCIC		2 R 22e R, Far East.
		Fanida, Orphila.				
TB-1794		Lieutenant		Webb, Thomas		2 PPCLI RCIC		Madigan Army Hosp. Fort Lewis, Wash.
		Robert.				
SD-46008		WO II		Fuller, George Hubert.		2 RCR RCTC		5 Personnel Depot, Kingston, Ont.
						
SB-15152		Staff-Sergeant		Henderson,		C Int C. . .		6 Personnel Depot, Toronto, Ont.
		Robert.				
F-800140		Sergeant				RCASC		6 Personnel Depot, Toronto, Ont.
		Cuthbert.				
SC-850431....	Corporal		Carriere, Albert		RC Sigs		13 Personnel Depot, Ottawa, Ont.
		Robert Joseph.				
SC-850052....	Corporal		Disley, Joseph		RC Sigs		13 Personnel Depot, Ottawa, Ont.
		Anthony.				
B-800296		Private		Tremblay John		2 RCR RCIC		6 Personnel Depot, Toronto, Ont.
		Daniel.				
C-S50031		Corporal		Gingras, Paul		2 RCR, RCIC		13 Personnel Depot, Ottawa, Ont.
		Francis.				
ZD-5021	Lieutenant	MacDuff, Raymond. Nash. Walter Georee	2 R 22e R RCIC	2 R 22e R, Valcartier, P.Q. 2 R 22e R, Far East.TB-13009	Lieutenant	2 R 22e R, RCTC	Joseph. 1	
MENTION-IN-DESPATCHES (MID) (Cont'd)
Number	Rank	Name	Previous Decorations	Unit at Time of Award	Residence Prior to Enrolment	Present Location2 R 22e R, RCIC	Hull, P.Q	13 Personnel Depot,Ottawa, Ont.Prud'homme, Daniel.	2 R 22e R, RCIC	Hull, P.Q	13 Personnel Depot,Ottawa, Ont.n i	McEwan, Gerald Edward.	RCOC	Ottawa, Ont	UN Forces, Far East.
MacDonald, Strathcona, Clifton.		LdSH (RC) RCAC....	Toronto, Ont		6 Personnel Depot,
						Toronto, Ont.
		Thwaites, George Herbert.		LdSH (RC) RCAC...	Charlton, Ont		"C" Sqn. LdSH (RC)
						RCAC Far East.
7. TC_dKS7		Hallam, Richard, Edwin.		RCEME, 191 Cdn Inf	Vancouver, B.C		Vehicle Development Est,
				Wksp.		Ottawa, Ont.
		Crowe, John Douglas.	MC		2 Regiment RCHA-	Guelph, Ont		6 Personnel Depot,
						Toronto, Ont.
		Forbes, Jean, Charles, Bertrand.		2R22eR, RCIC		Matane-sur-Mer, P.Q...	3 Personnel Depot,
						Quebec, P.Q.
		Gunton, Gordon, Arthur.		1 PPCLI, RCIC		Montreal, P.Q		1 PPCLI, Far East.
						
		McKenzie, John, Henry.		RCASC, HQ 25 Cdn	Hamilton, Ont		RCASC School, Borden,
				Inf Bde.		Ont.
		Tierney, Angus, McDougall.		2 Regiment, RCHA...	Vancouver, B.C		2 Regt. RCHA, Shilo, Man.
						
				2R22eR, RCIC		Quebec, P.Q		3 Personnel Depot,
						Quebec, P.Q.
				1 PPCLI, RCIC		Winnipeg, Man		HQ 1 Comwel Div.
		Arthur.				Far East.
ZM-2911			Day, Richard, Mac-Kreth.		54 Cdn Tpt Coy,	Salmon Arm, B.C		RCASC School, Borden,
				RCASC.		Ont.
		Glendinning, David, Lome.		"C" Sqn, LdSH (RC)	Vancouver, B.C		"C" Sqn LdSH (RC),
				RCAC.		1 RCAC, Far East.
3748	HOUSE OF COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Lieutenant
Keating, John, Hugh
SD-116748___
[Stage Direction]
WO 2	
Sergeant__
A/Sergeant.
Sergeant___
Sergeant___
Sergeant___
A/Sergeant
A/Corporal
Winterson, Stanley, Alexander.
Chillman, John, William.
Dee, Vincent	
Forbes, James,	MM
Floyd.
Hunt, George, Mervyn. MM Stone, Joseph, Ernest	
Zaluski, Walter
Charpentier, Marc (deceased).
H-800326	 Corporal...
SE-103717____ A/Corporal
Harrison, Sydney Michaud, Jules____

[Stage Direction]
Lance-Bombard ier
Lance-Corporal___
Lance-Corporal___
Private	
Private	
Bird, Gerard, Everett.
Hoffman, Cyrille, Cedric.
Mathews, Glen, Abbott.
Brown, Raymond, Paul.
Copley, Donald, Reg.

[Stage Direction]
Private
Doucette, Cornelius, Joseph.
57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn, RCE.
RC Sigs, 25 CIB Sig Troop.
54 Cdn Tpt Coy, RCASC.
2 RCR, RCIC	
"C" Sqn, LdSH (RC) RCAC.
25 Cdn Fd Amb	
1	PPCLI, RCIC	
2	R 22e R, RCIC...
2 R 22e R, RCIC...
"C" Sqn, LdSH (RC) RCAC.
RCAMC Medical Assistant, 1 PPCLI, RCIC.
2 Regiment, RCHA....
2 PPCLI, RCIC	
1	PPCLI, RCIC	
25 Cdn Fd Amb RCAMC.
2	PPCLI, RCIC	
2 R 22e R, RCIC...
Ottawa, Ont	
Montreal, P.Q	
Toronto, Ont	
Montreal, P.Q	
Hopewell, Pictou Co. N.S.
Gravenhurst, Ont	
Maple Creek, Sask____
Cowansville, P.Q	
Three Rivers, P.Q____
Flin Flon, Man	
Lac Frontiere, Montmagny Co.,
[Stage Direction]
Lorlie, Sask	
Vancouver, B.C	
Edmonton, Alta	
57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn, Chilliwack, B.C.
Quebec Comd Sig Sqn, Montreal, P.Q.
Released: 32 Guthrey Ave., Etobicoke, Ont.
4 Personnel Depot, Montreal, P.Q.
"C" Sqn, LdSH (RC) RCAC Far East.
6 Personnel Depot,
Toronto, Ont.
Royal Cdn School of Infantry, Borden, Ont.
4 Personnel Depot, Montreal, P.Q.
Next-of-kin, Mr. R. Char-pentier (Father), Rang St. Marguerite, Three Rivers, P.Q.
"C" Sqn, LdSH (RC) RCAC, Far East.
1 PPCLI, Far East.
10	Personnel Depot, Calgary, Alta.
11	Personnel Depot, Vancouver, B.C.
1 PPCLI, Far East.
Mansonville, P.Q	 4 Personnel Depot,
Montreal, P.Q.
Toronto, Ont	 Released: 1863 Dufferin St.,
Toronto, Ont.
West Bathurst, N.B....
4 Personnel Depot, Montreal, P.Q.

MENTION-IN-DESPATCHES (MID) (Cont'd)
Number	Rank	Name	Previous Decorations	Unit at Time of Award	Residence Prior to Enrolment	Present LocationSK-14352...	Friesen, Henry, Kenneth.	57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn RCE.	57 Cdn Ind Fd Sqn RCE Far East.
B-800429				2 RCR, RCIC			G Personnel Depot, Toronto, Ont.
						
G-800054		McIntyre, George, Leonard.		2 RCR, RCIC		Barker's Point, York Co., N.B.	2 Personnel Depot, Fredericton, N.B.
						
SD-802313			Mahoney, Brendan, Leonard.		2 R 22e R, RCIC			2 R 22e R, Valcartier, P.Q.
						
SM-800357....		Ragan, Harold, Richard.		2 PPCLI, RCIC			2 PPCLI, Calgary, Alta.
						
R-800206		Sharp, James, Dockerty.		2 RCR, RCIC			25 Cdn Rft Group, Far East.
						
SN-111J		Tobin, Alexander, Joseph.		38 Motor Amb Coy RCASC.	St. John's, Nfld		12 Personnel Depot,
						St. John's, Nfld.

[Stage Direction]
19523		Wing Commander		Mussells, Campbell, Haliburton.	DSO, DFC, CD...	426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.	Montreal, P.Q		Air Transport Command, Lachine, P.Q.
MEMBER OF THE MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MOST EXCELLENT ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (MBE)						
1874		Wing Commander		Lord, William, Henry..		426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.	Ottawa, Ont		Air Force Headquarters.
AIR FORCE CROSS (AFC)						
19984		Wing Commander		Morrison, Howard, Allan.	DSO, DFC		426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.	Lauder, Man		412 Squadron, Rockcliffe, Ont.
3750	HOUSE OF COMMONS
19812	 26365		Squadron Leader	 Flight Lieutenant		Dickson, James, Donald. Payne, Donald, Melvin	DFC, DFM	 DFC		426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q. 426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.	Rothesay, N.B	 Toronto, Ont		RCAF Station, Lachine, P.Q. 2 Personnel Selection Unit, London, Ont.
AIR FORCE MEDAL (AFM)						
21603		Flight Sergeant		Drackley, Alfred, Arthur.		426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.	Birsay, Sask		426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.
BRITISH EMPIRE MEDAL (BEM)						
2414		Warrant Officer Class II	Engelbert, Arthur, Leroy.	CD		426 Squadron, Lachine, P.Q.	Manitou, Man		4 Operational Training Unit, Lachine, P.Q.

[Stage Direction]
23526							
		Edward.		P.Q.		Clinton, Ont.
17706				DFC
[Stage Direction]
Edwin David.
[Stage Direction]
P.Q'.
[Stage Direction]
Man.
[Stage Direction]
6552
[Stage Direction]
Finklestein, Abraham.
[Stage Direction]
CD
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
quarters, Trenton, Ont.
[Stage Direction]
17600
[Stage Direction]
Gainsborough, Sask....
[Stage Direction]
Air Force Headquarters.
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
20405
[Stage Direction]
Kirkcaldy, Scotland...
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
Edmonton, Alta.
[Stage Direction]
22554
[Stage Direction]
Scott, Morrison.
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
16396
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
P.Q.
[Stage Direction]
co
cn
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Thursday, June 26, 1952