1951-03-19

Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure I can feel I am speaking for all members of this house when I say how deeply shocked all of us were to learn today of the sudden death of one whom all of us had come to regard as a personal friend, Mr. Karl Homuth, the member for Waterloo South. I am sure Mr. Homuth was one of the most popular of our members, and would himself like to be remembered, first of all, as a good companion and a warm personal friend of each one of us on both sides of the house.
When I saw him take part in the division in the house only last Thursday I hoped, as I know most of us hoped, that he was recovering his health which had been so seriously impaired in these last years. I feel that all of us, regardless of party, were of the opinion that the house would be better for having him once more in a position to take an active part in its proceedings.
I will not attempt any long or detailed review of the late Karl Homuth's public service. As hon. members know, he was elected to the Ontario legislature over thirty years ago, in the general election of 1919, and he was re-elected at several subsequent elections. From the time he was elected to this house at a by-election in 1938, until his death, he was successful on every occasion in retaining the confidence and support of the majority of the electors of his constituency.
No doubt a large measure of the support he was given was the result of the political allegiance of the electors in his constituency. But I am told, and I am sure no one here will find it difficult to believe, that a large measure of support came as a personal tribute from his friends and neighbours in Waterloo South.
I should like to express our sympathy to the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) on the loss of one of his senior supporters, and to ask you, Mr. Speaker, to extend the sympathy of all hon. members to Mrs. Homuth and her children.


Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, it was indeed a very great shock to all of us to learn this morning of Mr. Karl Homuth's very sudden
and wholly unexpected death. As the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has so graciously said, he was a very warm friend of all the members of this house, regardless of their party affiliations. I think that few members here maintained their friendships on so broad a basis. For many long years he had been a figure well known here and well known throughout the country because of the vigorous views he had expressed, but views nevertheless expressed in such a way as to be accepted even by those against whom they were directed, in the generous and friendly spirit in which they were made.
Mr. Homuth was one of the many men who had served the public in a great many capacities; and over the broad field of public service that is open to every Canadian. As has been already pointed out, he was a member of this house continuously from 1938. Throughout those thirteen years he gave loyal and constant service to the people of the constituency which chose him. He also served for many years in the Ontario legislature. Prior to that he had served in the municipal council of Preston. His public service embraced the municipal, the provincial and the federal field. In each of those fields he was a good citizen in all that those words mean.
Many people are perhaps too often unaware of the extent of the service which is given by a good member to his constituency, and which is not in any way indicated by the contributions he may make to the debates in the House of Commons, or even to service on the committees. Karl Homuth played his full part in the debates of this house and in the work of the many committees. I think perhaps the members of the government know better than anybody else in this house that he was always an active representative of the people of his own constituency, no matter what their political affiliations were, in connection with every department of government where his services were required. That is a great and important part of the work of members of this house. I am sure that there were few members who were more successful in vigorously and correctly interpreting the needs of their own community than was the late Karl Homuth.
I join with the Prime Minister and, I am sure, with all the members of this house, in the expression of profound regret to his wife

The late Karl Homuth
and his family who have suffered this great and tragic loss. Karl Homuth will be remembered by everyone here as a good friend, a good Canadian and one who served his own community faithfully and well.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roseiown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, twice during the last few days I have been reminded of some lines I read some years ago, that:
Death rides on every passing breeze.
He lurks in every flower.
On Friday we learned of the death of a distinguished civil servant in the person of Mr. Riddell. This morning we were equally shocked at the loss of one who has been here a long time, one who, as both the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) have said, ably and well served his community and his country in this house and in representations before government departments.
Those of us who knew Karl Homuth in the old days, before his recent illnesses, remember him as a man full of vigour, whose witty interjections in this house often brought peals of laughter from all sides. He was never unkind; he was always friendly.
Those of us who have been associated with him for a long time, and even those who did not know him as well, today join the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, indeed all members of this house in regretting his passing and in expressing deepest sympathy to his widow, his immediate family and his brothers, who, I believe, have worked closely with him throughout the years.


Mr. Solon E. Low (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, sudden deaths such as that of our late good friend Karl Homuth are always shocking. I am sure that a pall of gloom has settled over us all. Yet, sir, though he is considered to be dead, that is not my attitude at all. I do not look upon Karl as being dead. I look upon him as having gone away on a journey. But we shall miss him sorely, just the same, while he is away on that journey.
I have formed the habit of taking men as I have found them. I found that Karl was a good man. He was always good to me; he was always friendly and congenial. Often, as he passed down the corridor by the open door of my office, he would drop in with a word of greeting or to tell me the latest joke. On such occasions he was always pleasant and jovial. After he had left I invariably felt that the world was a better place because of men like him.
I know that Karl had been in indifferent if not poor health for the past several years or even more. We do not know just how long it was, because he never complained.

In all the time that I knew him I never once heard him complain. Only Friday last, when he returned to this house after a considerable absence, during which, I am told, he had a serious illness, he dropped in for a moment; and although he admitted that he was rather weak, he was still cheerful and uncomplaining.
I looked upon Karl as a warm friend, and I shall miss him in his long absence from us. My sympathies, Mr. Speaker, go out to his family in this hour of their sorrow, and to the Conservative party in the loss of a devoted and loyal supporter.
(Translation):


Mr. A. Phileas Cote (Maiapedia-Malane):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say a few words in French to associate myself with those who have already expressed their sympathy on the occasion of the death of our friend, Mr. Karl Homuth. If, in this Holy Week, anyone should feel guilty for having prevented him from displaying his talents to the full during the last parliament, it is we of the "Little Chicago" group whose heckling I admit and regret. Fortunately, Mr. Karl Homuth was too broadminded and too much of a gentleman to hold that against us. If I have enjoyed the friendship of a member of the opposition like Karl Homuth, it is because he was big enough to put himself above anything we, without thinking of his illness, may have done to annoy him in the house. In fact, I was perhaps one of the first to shake his hand on his return to the house last Thursday.
I cannot express the regrets of the whole "Little Chicago" group, not being authorized to speak for the rest of its members. However, in view of Mr. Karl Homuth's attitude, I must say that I personally regret having said anything that may have offended a man who did so much good.
(Text):


Mr. Daniel Mclvor (Fori William):: Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted to do so, I should like to make a request. It is known that Karl Homuth not long ago composed a prayer, or poem, in which he described life as a game, the bible as the book of rules, and God as the great Captain. I think it would be fitting if the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) could secure this prayer or poem and have it sent to us as a memorial. I make this plea because I was the first Liberal to meet Karl Homuth when he came upstairs; and I will not forget saying to him: "On behalf of the honest Liberals in the house, we bid you welcome." He said: "Thank you for the information." From that time we were warm friends.


Mr. Jean Frangois Pouliol (Temiscouata):: Mr. Speaker, it is always a mournful sight to see the flag on the peace tower at halfmast. When one comes up the hill and sees the flag at half-mast the first question he asks is: For whom? Today I learned to my great surprise that Mr. Homuth had passed away. It was a great shock to me, although I knew that he had been ill. Last year he seemed to have recovered completely. I take this opportunity to add to the fine and well deserved tributes which have been paid to him.
We hear a lot about the fundamental freedoms, but there is no better example of the fundamental freedoms than this House of Commons. Members may hold diametrically opposite views, but when they depart this life their passing is lamented by the leaders and members of all groups in the house. We realize that in this house opinions are free, and the views of each member of parliament are respected by all.
I knew Mr. Homuth well enough to regret his passing, and I offer my deepest sympathy to the leader and other members of his party, his family, and his friends.


Mr. L. O. Breithaupt (Waterloo North):: Mr. Speaker, as the member representing the riding of Waterloo North I wish at this time to pay a tribute to my dear departed friend, Mr. Karl Homuth. We did not think along the same political lines, but I think we were pretty much of one mind when it came to human values and friendships. Karl, as he was affectionately known to all of us in that part of the country, will be missed greatly. I wish at this time to add my tribute to those that have been paid to our late departed friend by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew), and other hon. members.


Mr. L. E. Cardiff (Huron North):: Mr. Speaker, I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without having a word to say. Karl Homuth was one of my closest friends. He was a member of this house much longer than I have been. In the 1940 elections, when the Liberals won, leaving us only forty seats, Karl was my next door neighbour. He and I were the only ones left in that end of the province. Again in 1949, when there was another Liberal victory across the country, Karl and I were the only two left. I think perhaps he has been nearer to me than most.
He was a kindhearted man. I never knew him to hold spite against anyone. He had his own views, and he could express them before his first illness; but I think he held the respect of practically everyone on the other side of the house. I know that we are all going to miss him very much.
Reports and Papers



RAILWAYS, CANALS AND TELEGRAPH LINES FOURTH REPORT  CONCURRENCE IN RECOMMEN- DATION RESPECTING TRANS MOUNTAIN OIL PIPE LINE COMPANY

Louis Orville Breithaupt: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the fourth report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. By leave of the house I should like to move, seconded by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Murray):
That the recommendation contained in the fourth report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines respecting a charge on the proposed capital stock of Bill No. 115 (Letter M-l of the Senate), intituled: An act to incorporate Trans Mountain Oil Pipe Line Company, be concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting further supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1951, was presented by Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. G.	J.	Mcllraiih (Parliamentary
Assistant to the Minister of Trade and Commerce): I beg leave to table the annual report of Trans-Canada Air Lines for the year 1950.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 164, for the relief of Hortense Marie Therese Loiese Neveu.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 165, for the relief of Eileen Florence Alma Hinton Johnson.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 166, for the relief of Ritchie Leslie McEwen.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 167, for the relief of Catherine Marie Littlefield Stirling.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 168, for the relief of Marie Rose Vachon Orr.-Mr. Winkler.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)


Mr. Bryce:: 1.	How many employees of the income tax division have been laid off in the years 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950?

Questions
2.	What amount of income taxes has been written oil as uncollectable for each of the years 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950?
3.	How many individual income tax accounts have been written off for each of the years 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950?


Mr. McCann:: 1.	Calendar year 1946, nil; 1947, nil; 1948, nil; 1949, nil; 1950, 1,556.
2.	Nil.
3.	None.



SHIPBUILDING


Mr. Balcom:: 1.	How many new ships were procured by Canada during world war II period from September, 1939, to September, 1945?
2.	Of these, how many were built (a) in Canada; (b) in the United Kingdom; (c) elsewhere?
3.	What types of ships were built or procured1 from each of the above sources?
4.	How many new ships are proposed to be built or procured by Canada under present shipbuilding program?
5.	Of these, what number are to be built (a) in Canada; (b) in the United Kingdom; (c) elsewhere?
6.	Of those to be built in Canada (a) what types will be built; (b) what are names and locations of shipyards where same will be constructed?
7.	Were plans for new ships designed to Canada?


Mr. Campney:: 1.	322, but this figure does not include ships which were already built and which were taken over by the Royal Canadian Navy or craft smaller than Fairmiles.
2 (a) 299; (b) 23; (c) nil.
3.	Built in Canada:	Algerines, Bangor
minesweepers, corvettes depot ships, Fair-mile motor launches, frigates, 105-foot wooden minesweepers.
Built in United Kingdom:	corvettes,
cruisers, destroyers.
4.	Over 40 ships.
5.	(a) All; (b) nil; (c) nil.
6.	(a) Anti-submarine escort vessels, crane lighters, deperming vessels, gate vessels, icebreakers, minesweepers, seaward defence vessels.
(b) Halifax Shipyards, Halifax, N.S.; Pictou Foundry, Pictou, N.S.; Saint John Dry Dock, East Saint John, N.B.; Davie Shipbuilding, Levis, P.Q.; George T. Davie, Levis, P.Q.; Marine Industries, Sorel, P.Q.; Canadian Vickers, Montreal, P.Q.; Kingston Shipbuilding, Kingston, Ont.; Port Arthur Shipbuilding, Port Arthur, Ont.; Burrard, Vancouver, B.C.; Victoria Machinery Depot, Victoria, B.C.; Yarrows, Esquimalt, B.C. Other yards may be allocated.
7.	Yes.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-MARITIME PROVINCES  DIESEL OR OIL-BURNING LOCOMOTIVES

Mr. Stanfield:: 1.	Are the Canadian National Railways planning to put diesel or oil-burning locomotives on the main passenger and freight trains running in the maritime provinces?
2.	How many diesel engines have the Canadian National Railways operating at the present time in the maritime provinces; (a) Prince Edward Island; (b) Nova Scotia; (c) New Brunswick?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	The C.N.R. is not planning at the present to put either diesel or oil-burning locomotives on any main passenger trains running in the maritime provinces. It is expected to commence diesel operation of two manifest freight trains daily between Montreal and Halifax via Edmundston in the near future.
2.	Diesel locomotives in the maritime provinces: (a) Prince Edward Island, 20; (b) Nova Scotia, 6; (c) New Brunswick, 5; total 31. There are also three diesel locomotives operating on the C.N.R. lines in Newfoundland.



NATIONAL PARKS


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: 1.	How much was expended to the fiscal years ending March 31, 1948, 1949, 1950 and to date this year on (a) capital expenditures; (b) maintenance repairs and upkeep, on the Highlands national park in Nova Scotia?
2.	Were tenders called for?
3.	If so, who were the tenderers, and what was the amount of each tender?
4.	To whom were contracts let, what was the amount of each, and were they let on fixed prices?
5.	What has been the total cost under each contract in each year, and what amounts were paid each contractor?


Mr. Maybank:: 1.
For the fiscal year ending March 31
1948		
1949		
1950		
This fiscal year to
date	
Capital
expenditure
Nil


Mr. Campney:: 1.	No, except for children. If the soldier has a wife and child or children, allowances to the wife are increased by a flat rate of $15 per month regardless of the number of children. If there is no wife but the soldier has a dependent child or children in legal custody, or under his control, allowances are paid at the same rate.
2.	When the new uniform pay schedules were established in 1946, the basis of payment was changed so as to provide officers and men with rates of pay and allowances which, taken together with the value of supplies issued and services provided, put them on a basis equivalent to men doing similar work in the leading industries. Provision for families living together was made by a subsistence allowance and provision for families which were not living in the same place was made by a separated marriage allowance. All this takes the place of the wartime dependents' allowance. With subsequent increases, the arrangement has been continued with the additional payment of $15 above mentioned. The scale of pay and allowances will be found in answer given in House of Commons Debates, volume 92, number 15, February 19, 1951, page 454.



SUBSIDIES OR OTHER GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE

Mr. Kirk (Anligonish-Guysborough):: How much in subsidy or other government assistance has been paid each year from 1939-40 to 1949-50, in (a) Canada as a whole:	(b) each province
separately, on the following (i) cheese; (ii) cheese factory construction assistance; (iii) maple syrup; (iv) hogs; (v) freight assistance on coarse grain? '
[Mr. Kirk (Antigonish-Guysborougfc;.


Mr. McCubbin:: 



PAYMENTS MADE BY THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE ON SPECIFIED COMMODITIES FROM INCEPTION OF POLICIES, CANADA AND PROVINCES, 1939-40 TO 1949-50

[Stage Direction]
Fiscal Year	Commodity	Canada	Nfld.	P.E.I.	N.S.	N.B.	Que.	Ont.	Man.	Sask.	Alta.	B.C.Thou	sand dollar	s	1939-40	598	2	1	80	508	4	a	a	i46	3	43	1940-41	1,055	1	2	185	844	11	i	6	582	17	63	1	a106	106	1941-42	1,494	1	2	303	1,159	11	i	10	7182	132	46	2	1,7846	12	12	4,485	57	329	296	1,623	1,809	3711942-43	1,745	2	7	440	1,254	15	2	16	9217	186	28	2	110 242	285	1,026	718	4,000	3,194	1,0201943-44	1,482	5	329	1,124	8	1	7	8117	96	20	1,172	5	4	406	684	31	2	31	917 71fi	454	1,376	i, 022	5,892	7,394	1,5783,855	636	'445	'908	860	539	961	791944-45	1,602	8	444	1,123	8	1	10	846	28	17	1	-milk for cheddar cheese..	4,162c	23	1	24	1,363	2,538	93	23	88	2215 055	313	1,343	i,007	5,962	5,621	1,70914[091	2576	1,995	3,422	2,544	1,844	3,624	4051945-46	1,659	1	9	404	1,217	6	1	13	828	2	25	1	-milk for cheddar cheese..	4,156	20	a	29	1,401	2,562	85	12	78	1188	88	17 262	405	1 272	1,146	6,248	6,405	1,786Hog premiums	91573	1936	1,518	3 j 089	i, 284	922	2,i83	3841374	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
80709-88 £
Cheese-quality premium	
-factory improvement____
-milk for Cheddar cheese.
Maple production equipment	
Freight assistance on feed grain... Hog premiums	
1,2,54
4,983
18,945
4,506
Cheese-quality premium	
-factory improvement....
-milk for cheddar cheese..
Maple production equipment	
Freight assistance on feed grain_
Hog premiums	
139
203
20,094
5,474
Cheese-quality premium	
-factory improvement...
Maple production equipment....
Freight assistance on feed grain_
Hog premiums	
138
17,555
4,483
Cheese-quality premium	
-factory improvement...
Maple production equipment....
Freight assistance on feed grain_
Hog premiums	
149
16,682
4,937
Total paid under each policy-
Cheese-quality premium	
*-factory improvement... -milk for cheddar cheese Maple production equipment. ... Freight assistance on feed grain.. Hog premiums	
13,567
1,330
14,740
1,435
138,937
46,919
	1		7	249 153 2,285 194	977 32 3,371	6	1	8 1 101	5
									
26	1	29	110	10	17458	1,518	1,298	7,072	6,515	2,084886	805	1,897	484	297	761	1741	99	801	5	8	435	101	3	2	39	195	14	16	2203	423	1,364	1,254	7,390	7,544	2,1191336	1,156	2,259	527	339	850	2101	1	68	699	5	8	24	133	1360	398	1,446	1,056	6,745	6,156	1,7541896	1,126	1,796	348	182	647	1952	2	131	825	3	10	2114	34	1	472	276	363	1,299	844	6,938	5,481	1,4812036	1,211	2,111	381	183	622	22611	45	2,732	10,531	82	8	96	61770	542	1	11	274	2	88	5,494	9,350	333	47	314	611,435	276	3,i56	10 973	8,641	51,870	50,119	13,9021,1266	8,256	15,482	6,428	4,306	9,648	1,673
a Less than $500.
b No provincial breakdown available.
c Refunds and adjustments of previous year's expenditure deducted from the total for all Canada only (as no provincial breakdown was available) are as follows:- 1944-45, $13 thousand; 1945-16, $42 thousand; 1946-47, $967 thousand; total for all years, $1,022 thousand.

Questions
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	What is the number of persons comprising the labour force in the province of Manitoba?
2.	What are the major classifications of occupations into which the labour force is divided in Manitoba?
3.	How many are in each such classification?


Mr. Coie (Verdun-La Salle):: 1. Based on data from the latest labour force survey of the dominion bureau of statistics, the estimated labour force of Manitoba at November 4, 1950, was 315,000.
2 and 3. The labour force survey of the dominion bureau of statistics is based on a one to two per cent representative sample of all households in Canada. While this sample provides reliable data on the occupational composition of the labour force for the whole of Canada, it is not designed to provide detailed data such as this for individual provinces.
Some information on the number of workers in various occupational groups in Manitoba can be obtained from the 1946 census of the prairie provinces. The following figures show the number of gainfully occupied persons in Manitoba by occupation according to the census:
Number at
Occupational Group	June 1,1946
Managerial	  19,900
Professional	 15,435
Clerical	 26,946
Transportation	  16,648
Communication	 2,610
Commercial	 14,527
Financial	 1,524
Service	 36,919
Agricultural	 80,688
Fishing, logging and trapping... 3,552
Mining	 1,953
Manufacturing and mechanical..	30,733
Light & power, stationary
enginemen	 2,127
Construction	 12,457
Labourers (exc. agric., fish., log.,
mining)	 11,772
Not stated	 2,138
Total	 279,929
These data are not directly comparable to those of the labour force survey. The main difference is based on the fact that in the census persons are classified according to their usual occupation in the preceding twelve months, while the quarterly labour force survey classifies individuals on the basis of what they were actually doing in the particular survey week.



ASSISTANCE TO NOVA SCOTIA APPLE GROWERS

Mr. Kirk (Digby-Yarmouth):: In connection with, payments made by the federal government to the Annapolis valley. Nova Scotia, apple growers:
1.	What were the amounts paid towards the tree removal program in (a) 1947-48; (b) 1948-49; (c) 1949-50; (d) 1950-51, to date?
2.	What other forms of direct assistance were given from April 1, 1940, to date, and what was the amount paid each year?
3.	What was the total amount paid for all assistance from April 1, 1940, to date?


Mr. McCubbin:: 1.	1947-48	
None1948-	49	
$1,500,0001949-	50	
None1950-	51	
None2.	Guarantee of minimum returns to producers by means of deficiency payments and by sharing the purchase price of apples sold to the United Kingdom.1940-41 	$ 951,2901941-42 	
1,403,0611942-43 	
1,888,4571943-44 	
1,678,0751944-45 	
1,183,1651945-46 . .. .	
58,4071946-47 	
757,3581947-48 	
3,292,0591948-49 	
1,443,8091949-50 	
1,582,979$16,201,620.	SHAUGHNESSY	MILITARY HOSPITALMaclnnis:	
Who was the successful tenderer, and at what price, for each class of goods in the call for tenders by the Department of Veterans Affairs, No. Q.R. 2171, supplies for Shaughnessy military hospital?


Mr. Mulch:: Soap flakes, yellow: Kavanagh Soap Co., $6.19 (50 lb. bag).
Soap, yellow, 1 lb. bars: Kavanagh Soap Co., $6.85 (50 lb. case).
Soft soap: Western Soap Co., $5.00 (50 lb. drum).



FAMILY ALLOWANCES

Mr. Kirk (Aniigonish-Guysborough):: 1.	How many families have received family allowances from beginning of payments to date, giving the number for each year (a) in Canada; (b) in each province?
2.	How many children have received family allowances from beginning of payments to date, giving the number for each year (a) in Canada; (b) in each province?
3.	What was the total amount paid out in family allowances from beginning of payments to date, amounts to be given for each year (a) in Canada; (b) in each province?
Mr. McCusker



NUMBER OF FAMILIES IN RECEIPT OF FAMILY ALLOWANCES

[Stage Direction]
Provinces	As at 31 July 45	As at 31 March 40	As at 31 March 47	As at 31 March 48	As at 31 March 49	As at 31 March 50	As at 28 Feb. 51Prince Edward Island	11,702	11,999	12,280	12,748	12,920	13,165	13,317Nova Scotia	64,213	76,789	84,172	87,170	88,927	91,012	91,981New Brunswick	54,036	58,933	65,071	68,510	70,610	72,410	72,722Quebec	354,881	396,904	445,669	468,680	488,263	507,727	524,503Ontario	384,921	456,219	526,400	555,658	575,961	603,847	625,499Manitoba	80,106	87,252	97,698	99,954	101,917	105,611	108,159Saskatchewan	97,444	106,067	112,625	114,613	115,170	116,917	118,141Alberta	94,678	103,804	115,198	119,739	124,173	130,686	135,781British Columbia	95,773	106,840	126,622	139,627	147,630	156,367	1G0,669
tories		553	1,344	2,721	3,245	3,579	3,833	4,008
						50,694	51,466
							
Totals		1,238,307	1,406,151	1,588,456	1,669,944	1,729,150	1,852,269	1,906,246
							-

Questions

2.	NUMBER OF CHILDREN IN PAY
Provinces	As at 31 July 45	As at 31 March 46	As at 31 March 47	As at 31 March 48	As at 31 March 49	As at 31 March 50	As at 28 Feb. 51Prince Edward Island	29,207	30,541	31,203	31,861	32,621	33,588	34,235Nova Scotia	155,121	183,447	196,530	202,029	207,282	213,981	218,183New Brunswick	143,152	156,961	168,114	175,390	181,921	188,593	191,591Quebec	1,029,246	1,118,540	1,230,312	1,260,735	1,302,242	1,350,588	1,400,668Ontario	798,725	937,982	1,051,206	1,096,779	1,140,778	1,204,558	1,260,917Manitoba	169,686	184,692	203,681	207,544	211,752	220,862	227,707Saskatchewan	232,966	248,319	255,424	257,611	258,370	261,623	264,372Alberta	213,162	230,767	248,512	255,848	266,133	280,780	291,822British Columbia	185,579	204,754	242,010	260,752	279,769	299,838	312,447Yukon and Northwest Terri-	Not	tories	available	3,097	6,070	7,023	7,785	8,281	8,758139,571	144,569
Totals		2,956,844	3,299,100	3,633,062	3,755,572	3,888,653	4,202,263	4,355,269
1378	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Questions
3.

[Stage Direction]
Provinces	July 45 to to March 46	Fiscal year ended March 47	Fiscal year ended March 48	Fiscal year ended March 49	Fiscal year ended March 50	April 50 to February 51 inclusive	TotalsPrince Edward Island	1,620,561	2,194,372	2,257,561	2,296,604	2,412,613	2,261,022	13,042,733Nova Scotia	9,547,995	13,416,762	14,252,586	14,541,859	15,303,166	14,352,780	81,415,148New Brunswick	8,123,483	11,402,915	12,097,153	12,471,426	13,383,573	12,570,479	70,049,029Quebec	57,978,816	82,614,860	87,630,726	89,478,061	96,084,580	91,210,197	504,997,240Ontario	49,421,887	70,628,176	77,585,749	80,240,657	85,025,470	81,539,947	444,441,886Manitoba	9,932,877	14,052,301	14,834,198	15,028,912	15,685,145	14,880,199	84,413,542Saskatchewan	13,210,097	18,129,468	18,570,216	18,541,002	18,964,463	17,636,454	105,051,700Alberta	12,300,428	17,186,896	18,225,052	18,723,691	19,842,615	19,030,318	105,309,000British Columbia	10,719,729	15,743,010	18,037,675	19,383,427	20,848,799	20,117,870	104,850,510Yukon and Northwest Terri-	tories	169,675	332,924	465,589	525,936	608,983	581,560	2,684,6679,752,377	9,357,475	19,109,852
Totals		173,025,458	245,701,684	263,956,505	271,321,575	297,911,784	283,538,301	1,535,365,307

Questions
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Mr. Poulin:: 1.	How many milk cows were exported to the United States during each of the years 1949 and 1950?
2.	How many heifers, two years old or under, were exported to the said country during the same two years?


Mr. Mcllraith:: 1949	1950
	Number	Number
Dairy cattle, weighing		
200 lbs. to 700 lbs. ..	199	584
Dairy cattle, weighing		
over 700 lbs		46,845	46,459
No break-down is available by age groups.


Mr. Fraser:: 1.	What was the total production of wire nails in Canada during (a) the year 1950; (b) the months of January and February, 1951?
2.	Were any nails exported from Canada during (a) the year 1950; (b) the months of January and February, 1951?
3.	If so, to what countries were they exported, and what quantity to each country?
4.	Were any wire nails imported into Canada
during (a) the year 1950;	(b) the months of
January and February, 1951?
5.	If so, from what countries were these nails imported1 and what quantity from each country?
6.	What was the Votal value of steel rods imported into Canada for the manufacturing of wire nails during (a) the year 1950; (b) the months of January and February, 1951?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1. (a) and (b).	1950	1951(Cal. Year)	Jan.	Feb.Net	tons Net tons	Production of:	NotSteel wire nails .. 85,425	7,820	avail-Aluminum nails .	331	38	able2. (a) and (b). Yes.	O . 1950	1951	(Cal. Year)	Jan.	Feb.Cwt.	Cwt.	Exports of wire nails	Bermuda	20	Jamaica	6	Leeward and Wind-	ward Islands ..	58	NotCuba	5	.	Portuguese Africa	-	100	avail-St. Pierre 	12	Surinam	12	ableThe Netherlands	Antilles	2	2	United States ....	365	1	Totals	480	103	
3. (Cone.)
	1950	1951	
(Cal. Year)		Jan.	Feb.
	Cwt.	Cwt.	
Exports of other nails			
Union of			
South Africa .	. 4	12	
Bermuda		. 10			
Leeward and Wind-			
ward Islands ..	21	10	Belgian Congo ..	. 2	-	Colombia	. 5	200	NotCuba 	. 53	-	Dominican	republic	. 350	-	avail-St. Pierre 	. 32	1	Guatemala 	. 20	-	ableIsrael	. 	3	The Netherlands	Antilles 	. 3	-	Venezuela	. 368	-	United States ...	. 230	4	Totals 	. 1,098	230	4. (a) and (b).	Yes.	5. Imports of wire roofing nails of all sizes	and wire nails 1 inch or more in length*	1950	1951	(Cal. Year)	Jan.	Feb.Cwt.	Cwt.	United1 Kingdom	.18,758	2,463	Austria	. 2,100	483	NotBelgium	. 1,440	-	Germany	. 5,032	1,323	avail-Japan 	. 6,146	100	The Netherlands	. 345	359	ablePoland	. 2,210	-	United States ...	.33,368	4,079	Totals	.69,399	8,807	*Information not	available	for wire	nailsless than one inch	in length.	6.	Information not available. Not separately classified in trade statistics.



NEWFOUNDLAND


Mr. Higgins:: What geological investigation has been done in the province of Newfoundland since the date of union?


Mr. Prudham:: In 1949 the geological survey had four field parties in Newfoundland, distributed as follows:	one on the Avalon
peninsula; one on Bonavista bay; one at the head of Fortune bay; one on Notre Dame bay.
In 1950 the geological survey had four field parties in Newfoundland, distributed as

follows: one on the Avalon peninsula; two on Notre Dame bay; one party for one month in Bonavista bay and for three months on the coast of Labrador.
Since union, the following results have been attained:
Standard one-mile geological maps completed	 6
(a standard one-mile sheet is 15 minutes of latitude by 30 minutes of longitude)
Non-standard one-mile geological maps
completed	 2
Non-standard one-mile geological maps
published (preliminary)	 2
Standard one-mile geological maps being
drafted for publication	 2
Non-standard one-mile geological maps
being edited for drafting	 1
Non-standard one-mile geological maps
being drafted for publication	 2
Standard four-mile half-sheets, geological
completed	 2
(a standard four-mile half-sheet is one degree by one degree)
Standard four-mile half-sheets published
(preliminary)	 2
Reports published (all maps are accompanied by full descriptive notes where no
report is published)	 2
Reports in process of publication	 2



MARKETING OF COARSE GRAINS

Mr. Sinnoii:: 1.	How much (a) rye; (b) oats; (c) flax, was marketed during each oi the months of September, October, November, December, 1950, and January, February and March, 1951?
2.	What percentage of these grains was marketed at November 30, 1950?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1. Marketings of grain in the			prairie
provinces:	Oats	Rye	Flaxbus.	bus.	bus.Sept., 1950	.. 11,049,283	3,299,273	104,016October .	. . 14,303,434	717,626	523,642November	.. 15,976,115	581,291	1,805,232December	. . 9,911,694	266,374	182,721Jan., 1951	. . 6,245,964	208,560	80,739February	.. 2,638,244	76,445	83,373March 1-8	* 1,615,307	60,765	21,508Totals	.. 61,740,041	5,210,334	2,801,231* Latest	data available.	
2. September-November marketings as a percentage of marketings from September 1 to March 8: Oats, 66-9 per cent; rye, 88'3 per cent; flax, 86-9 per cent.
Questions



GREECE AND ROUMANIA


Mr. Thatcher:: 1.	What is the outstanding debt owed to Canada by (a) Greece; (b) Roumania?
2.	What proportion of these amounts have been outstanding since the first world war?
3.	When was the last payment made by each of these countries?
4.	Has the government requested payment in recent years?
5.	Has the government considered the recommendation made by the public accounts committee, June 22, 1950, that the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act should be amended to authorize the writing off of uncollectable debts that have accumulated up to 1940 in the government accounts?
6.	If so, have any been written off?


Mr. Sinclair:: 1 and 2. By agreement dated March 21, 1919, Canada made advances to Greece in the amount of $7,521,300.67, to facilitate the purchase in Canada by the government and citizens of Greece of goods produced in Canada. In 1923 the principal amount together with unpaid interest were consolidated and 5 per cent debentures in the principal amount of $8 million were issued to the government of Canada. The amount of these debentures presently outstanding is $6,525,000.
By agreement dated March 6, 1919, Canada made advances to Roumania in the amount of $20,449,083.94, to facilitate the purchase in Canada by the government and citizens of Roumania of goods produced in Canada. In 1922 Roumania made a consolidation of its external debt. At that time Canada received $23,969,720 4 per cent consolidation loan bonds due April 1, 1968 representing the principal amount of the advances together with unpaid interest.
The government of Canada received in 1938, consolidation (funding) loan bonds in the principal amount of 5,662,792.50 fcs, ($359,542.40) payable in gold, representing 75 per cent of the amount of interest due on October 1, 1933, on the Roumanian government consolidation lo<m bonds, not paid in cash. The amount of the bonds of these two issues presently held by Canada is $24,329,262.40.
3.	Greece-principal and interest, June 30, 1931.
Roumania-47 per cent of the interest due October 1, 1939.
4.	No.
5 and 6. In the speech from the throne it was stated that parliament would be asked to consider a complete revision of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. Details of the proposed legislation will be available to members of the House of Commons when the bill is introduced in the normal course of business.

Questions



PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS


Mr. McGregor:: 1.	Were any alterations or repairs done to the east block of the parliament buildings since 1949?
2.	If so. were tenders called for this work?
3.	Who were the successful contractors?
4. What work did each of these contractors do?
5. How much did each of them receive for his work?
6.	Has the work in the east block been completed?
7.	If not, what work remains to be done?
8.	Has the work which has been done reduced the fire hazard?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	Yes.
2.	No. '
3.	Doran Construction Company.
4.	The Doran Construction Company did general masonry work, carpentry work, sheet metal work, plastering, painting and glazing, electrical work, and plumbing, heating and ventilation improvements.
5.	The Doran Construction Company was paid $788,134.19 to March 10, 1951.
6.	No.
7.	Elevator shaftways, new elevator cars, fireproofing stairways, fire-escapes to court area, improvements to entrances and sprinkler system.
8.	Yes.



POULTRY


Mr.   Moil@: In connection with the federal policy of free distribution of the Doyle-Wright vaccine for Newcastle disease:
1.	When was the vaccine made available in British Columbia?
2.	What special veterinary staff was sent to British Columbia in this connection?
3.	How has its availability been made known to poultrymen?
4.	How many birds have been treated to date?
5.	What percentage is this of estimated birds that should be treated to provide protection?


Mr. McCubbin:: 1.	Vaccine was made available week of February 17, 1951.
2.	One senior veterinarian from Ottawa. In addition, three poultry inspectors from the prairie provinces and four from British Columbia were especially trained and have been made available to work under direction of the district veterinarian and thereby supplement the staff in British Columbia.
3.	Through the press and various poultry associations and British Columbia poultry industries council.
4.	155,307 as at March 10, 1951.
5.	7-76 per cent.



BROOKS, ALTA., PUBLIC BUILDING SITE

Mr. Wylie:: 1.	How many lots were purchased in the town of Brooks for the site of the dominion government public building?
2.	What is the size of the lots?
3.	From whom were the lots purchased, and what amount was paid in each case?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	No lots were purchased, but four were expropriated.
2.	Each lot is 26' x 130'.
3.	Lots Nos. 1 and 2, (a), Ingram Bros.; lot No. 3, (a), town of Brooks; lot No. 4, (a), Justin M. Calwait; (b), no settlement yet made.



NEWFOUNDLAND AND QUEBEC BOUNDARIES

Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Was any work done in 1950 on defining the boundaries between the province of Newfoundand and the province of Quebec?
2.	If so, what work?


Mr. Prudham:: 1.	No.
2.	None.



NEWFOUNDLAND


Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Does the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys do magnetometric surveys?
2.	If so, was any request for this service made by the province of Newfoundland at any time since the date of union?


Mr. Prudham:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.



COUNT JACQUES DE BERNONVILLE

Mr. Courtemanche:: 1.	Has the Canadian government received a request from the government of France for the extradition of Count de Bernonville?
2.	If so, what action has been taken?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	No.
2.	Not applicable.



NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR COASTS


Gordon Francis Higgins: What sounding and chartings were done on the Newfoundland and Labrador coasts in 1950?


George Prudham: Sounding and hydrographic charting surveys were carried out in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, in 1950, at the following places:
Bell island, Conception bay; St. John's harbour; Cape Race; Botwood; Lewisporte; Hare bay; Ariege bay; How harbour; Cre-maillere harbour; Goose cove; Great Islets

harbour; St. Julien harbour; Spring Inlet; Maiden Arm; Battle harbour, Labrador; Hopedale, Labrador.



PRAIRIE PROVINCES


Mr. Sinnoli:: 1.	How many tractors were purchased in each of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, from the United States during the year 1950?
2.	What was the total amount of such purchases?


George James McIlraith: 1 and 2. Not available.
Imports of tractors from the United States entered at customs ports in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta during the calendar year 1950 were as follows:
Number Value
Manitoba ... Saskatchewan Alberta ....

7,264	11,288,155
9,608	16,148,315
8,298	15,304,182
Note: Imports into a particular province are not necessarily sold in that province.



PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS


Mr. McGregor:: 1.	Was any work done to the roof of the east block of the parliament buildings since 1949?
2.	If so, what has been done to the roof?
3.	Were tenders called for this work?
4.	If so, who was the successful contractor?
5.	Did the contractor agree to do the work in a certain time?
6.	If so, has he fulfilled his agreement?
7.	Has he completed the job?
8.	If not, when does he expect to complete the job?
9.	What has the job cost?
10.	If not completed, what is the estimated cost to complete the job?
11.	What material is being used to cover the roof?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	Yes.
2.	The old slate roof was removed, woodwork repaired and a new copper roof was applied over the repaired area.
3.	No; work is part of the Doran Construction Company contract.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	No.
6.	Answered by No. 5.
7.	No.
8.	The end of June, 1951.
9.	$56,643.47.
10.	$33,143.58.
11.	Copper.
Questions



NATIONAL REGISTRATION

Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Is a preliminary investigation now being carried out on the question of whether or not there should be a national registration, following the report of the national advisory council on manpower?
2.	If so, who is conducting the investigation, of what does it consist, and what progress has been made to date?


Mr. Cote (Verdun-La Salle):: The Department of Labour has under study all aspects of the question of national registration in relation to the most effective utilization of the present and potential Canadian working force in the national interest. It is planned that the results of these studies as available from time to time will be placed before the national advisory council on manpower for consideration at future meetings of the council.



PRAIRIE PROVINCES


Mr. Sinnoli:: 1.	How many tractors were purchased in each of the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, from eastern Canada, during the year 1950?
2.	What was the total amount of such purchases?


George James McIlraith: 1 and 2. Not available.
Total sales of farm and garden tractors in the prairie provinces during 1949 (latest available) were as follows:
Number Value

Farm tractors .... 36,006	65,495,176
Garden tractors ..	1,535	290,708
Break-downs by geographic source or individual provinces are not available.



FREIGHT RATES


Mr.   Moil@: What is the total subvention paid on the movement of feed grains to British Columbia for each year since its inception under the federal freight assistance provision?


Robert McCubbin: 1941-1942 (Nov. 1 to Mar. 31).$ 371,061.65
1942-	43	
1,019,538.431943-	44	
1,577,976.411944-	45	
1,708,936.701945-	46	
1,786,338.941946-	47	
2,083,980.741947-	48	
2,118,683.461948-	49	
1,753,757.021949-	50	
1,481,194.651950-	51 (April 1 to Jan. 31)..	912,542.87Grand total	$14,814,010.87
Orders for Returns



FREIGHT RATES-FEED GRAINS-PROVINCE OF QUEBEC

Mr. Boisvert:: 1.	What quantities of feed grains were bought by the farmers of the province of Quebec for each of the years 1945, 1946. 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950?
2.	What was the amount of money paid by the Canadian government as freight assistance on western feed grains to the farmers of the province of Quebec for each of the years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950?


Mr. McCubbin:: 1.	No figures available to show quantities of feed grains bought by the farmers of the province of Quebec during the years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950.
2.	The Canadian government paid as freight assistance on the movement of western feed grains to the farmers of the province of Quebec:
Fiscal Year Tonnage moved Amount paid
1945-	46	
1,170,281	Tons	$ 6,247,662.151946-	47	
1,326,924	"	7,072,504.921947-	48	
1,389,173	"	7,390,400.361948-	49	
1,053,410	"	6,744,934.181949-	50	
987,505	"	6,937,544.151950-	51 (Apr. 1to Jan. 31) ..	743,592	"	5,549,553.86
Totals for
the period .. 6,670,885	"	$39,942,599.62



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Hodgson:: 1.	Were any properties of old age pensioners taken over by the government in 1950?
2.	If so, what amount of money was acquired by the government in this connection, by provinces?
3.	How much money was paid to old age pensioners during the year 1950, by provinces?



TRAVEL BUREAU


Mr. Murphy:: 1.	What was the estimated tourist revenue for Canada in the year 1950?
2.	Of the amount spent for advertising by the Canadian government travel bureau during the year 1950, how much was spent in (a) Canada; (b) the United States?
3.	What advertising concerns were engaged?
4.	How was the money spent by each of them?
5.	What magazines and papers were used for advertising in both Canada and the United States?
6.	What films were used in the United States to promote our tourist industry, and in what places was each film shown?
7.	Were such films shown in Canada? If so, where?
8.	Does the travel bureau have offices in the United States to promote the tourist industry?
9.	If so, where, and how many persons are employed in each office?


Mr. Maybank:: Return tabled.



NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY


Mr. Pouliot:: 1.	Since September 1, 1939, what gifts have been made by Canada to (a) each of the countries signatories to the Atlantic treaty, before and after the signing of the said treaty; (b) each of the other countries of the world?
2.	Since the same date, what gifts have been received by Canada from (a) each of the countries signatories to the Atlantic treaty, before and after the signing of the said treaty; (b) each of the other countries of the world?
3.	What was the amount or value in Canadian dollars of each gift mentioned in the two preceding questions?



CABANO, QUE., FIRE    DEVASTATION OF B.C. ORCHARDS

Mr. Fullon:: 1.	What was the total actual cost (or if not known, the estimated cost) of repairing the damage done by the fire at Cabano, province of Quebec, in 1950?
2.	Did the provincial or local authorities request a contribution from the federal treasury towards the relief of this disaster? If so, how much?
3.	What was the amount actually contributed from the federal treasury in this case?
4.	What was the estimate of the cost of rehabilitating the orchards of British Columbia devastated by the winter of 1949-50?
5.	Did the provincial authorities request a contribution from the federal treasury towards the relief of this disaster? If so, how much?
6.	What was the amount actually contributed from the federal treasury in this case?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Major James William Coldwell: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, memoranda, or other documents between any minister, department, official, or the government of Canada and any minister, department, official or His Majesty's government of the United Kingdom, relating to the final settlement of the four-year agreement, 1946, for the sale and purchase of Canadian wheat, including correspondence, and other documents relating to the price agreed to be paid during the last two years of the agreement.
He said: As arranged, I am prepared to withdraw the motion, now that the documents have been filed.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



BROOKS, ALTA., PUBLIC BUILDING SITE

Mr. Wylie:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, memoranda and other documents exchanged during the past year between any person or persons and the Department of Public Works, relating to the location and purchase of various lots in the town of Brooks, Alberta, to be used as a site for a dominion government public building.



NATIONAL COUNCIL ON PHYSICAL FITNESS

Mr. Noseworihy:: For (1) a copy of any suggested amendments to the National Physical Fitness Act submitted by the

national council on physical fitness, since 1943, to the Department of National Health and Welfare; (2) a copy of any recommendations made, since 1943, by the national council on physical fitness to the Department of National Health and Welfare in regard to expenditure of funds for carrying out the purpose of the act; (3) a copy of all correspondence, legal or otherwise, exchanged since 1943, between the national council on physical fitness and the Prime Minister and/or the Minister of National Health and Welfare regarding the status of the council as an executive body.



FEDERAL ASSISTANCE TO B.C. FRUIT GROWERS

Mr. Herridge:: For a copy of all correspondence and telegrams exchanged between the government of British Columbia, or any minister or department thereof, and the federal government, or any minister or department thereof, in reference to the question of federal assistance to certain British Columbia fruit growers, whose trees were destroyed by frost during the winter of 1949-1950.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Subject to the usual reservation with respect to obtaining the consent of the government of British Columbia.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


Mr. Brooks:: For a copy of all tenders submitted under quotation requests Nos. 3331, 3333, 3417 and 3418, Department of Veterans Affairs, for the supply of coal to Lancaster military hospital and Ridgewood hospital, New Brunswick.


Mr. Thomas:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports and other documents exchanged between the Department of Public Works and any person or persons, during the past two years, relating to the purchase of a site for a public building in the town of Leduc, Alberta.


Mr. Nowlan:: For a copy of all payrolls, time sheets and other documents relating to labour employed, together with invoices and vouchers for material purchased in connection with moneys expended by the Department of Public Works at the Northwest Cove breakwater at Tancook island, Lunenburg county, Nova Scotia, during the calendar year 1950.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Secretary of State for External Affairs whether he is in a position to say what steps are being taken by the Canadian government in the light of the reported arrest by the present government of China of five missionary sisters under obviously trumped-up charges?
Inquiries of the Ministry


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: This information has been brought to our attention and we are taking what steps we can to inquire into the basis of it. On the face of it it would appear that the charges have been made for communist propaganda purposes of a kind with which we have become all too familiar in recent years.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Clarence Gillis (Cape Breton South):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. No notice is necessary. Has the Department of Transport requested the consent of the government of Nova Scotia to the bringing down of the return moved in this house on February 26 relating to the Canso project?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport):: The answer is yes.


Clarence Gillis: No answer has been received?


Lionel Chevrier: Not at this date.



OLD AGE PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: I should like to ask the Minister of Justice whether he has done any of the longdistance telephoning that he offered to do in his letter to the provincial premiers of February 28. If so, can he advise the house as to what progress is being made in reaching an agreement with respect to the new old age pension program?


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: If my hon, friend will read that letter carefully he will see that the long-distance telephoning in question was to be done after we had received replies to this letter of February 28 to the various provincial premiers, and after we had endeavoured to reconcile any divergence of opinion that might be expressed in those replies. We have now received replies from eight of the provinces, but I have not as yet, unless they came in this morning, received a reply from Manitoba or Saskatchewan. Until we receive those and endeavour to reconcile them, there will be no occasion for the long-distance telephone calls, because such telephoning will be done for the purpose of reconciling any residual difference of opinion, which has not as yet emerged.

Inquiries of the Ministry


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask a supplementary question? Had not these two provinces indicated their stand before this letter was written?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Yes; they had indicated their stand before this letter of February 28 was written; but this letter dealt with viewpoints expressed by at least four of the other provinces, and resulted in new drafts of these constitutional amendments upon which we sought to get the views of the various premiers in the form of replies to my letter of February 28 to which my hon. friend is referring.


Major James William Coldwell: If there is anything further to report, will the minister bring us up to date before we rise on Wednesday?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Yes, indeed.


Jean-François Pouliot: May I ask the minister what provinces have not answered yet, in addition to Saskatchewan?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Manitoba.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Both of them answered
favourably long ago.



LAKE ONTARIO


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. E. Lennard (Wentworth):: I should
like to ask a question or make a request of the Minister of Public Works. The information upon which I am basing this request has just been received; I have not given the minister notice, and do not expect an answer now, but would ask him to take it as notice. I have been informed that buildings at Van Wagner's beach, near Hamilton, are being washed away by a storm which is raging on lake Ontario. I would ask the minister if it might be possible to instruct the Hamilton harbour commission to give whatever assistance it can in this emergency.


Hon. Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works):: As the hon. gentleman mentioned,
I am not aware of these facts. I shall inquire into them and give the hon. member an answer as soon as possible.



WINNING OF WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP BY LETHBRIDGE MAPLE LEAFS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. Blackmore (Lethbridge):: I rise
on a question of privilege. Your Honour will desire to know, I believe, that Canada, on the night of March 17, at Paris, France,
(Mr. Garson.]

retained the amateur hockey championship of the world, won for her last year by the Edmonton Mercurys of Alberta. The team which played for Canada this year was the Lethbridge Maple Leafs, also of Alberta, all Lethbridge boys, supported by Dinny Flanagan, Mickey Roth and Billy Flick, hailing from Stratford, Ontario. These latter boys, having played this season with the Kitchener-Waterloo team, were flown to Paris after their 1951 play-offs by the Canadian amateur hockey association, to help the Leafs win and to be on hand in case of injuries.
The names of the Lethbridge Maple Leafs are: Dick Gray, formerly of Medicine Hat, coach and defence player; Mallie Hughes; Carl Sorokoski; Don Vogan; Jim Malacko; Whitey Rimsted; Bill Gibson; Hector Negrello; Don MacLean; Stan Obodiak; Tom Wood; Bill Chandler; Lou Siray; Nap Milroy; Bert Knibbs.
Many of the players are married and the fathers of children. During their absence the salaries of the members of the team are being paid by the people of Lethbridge, who donated $10,000 in a drive to help make the trip a possibility.
Lethbridge invites all Canadians to be glad with her that reports convey that her boys, chosen and commissioned to represent Canada, have been: first, gentlemen on and off the ice; second, ambassadors of good will to all they met; third, a team genuinely great; fourth, an attraction of the first order, playing to over 250,000 people in their lengthy tour of Europe and frequently drawing crowds of 15,000 and more; fifth, an honour to their country in this additional respect, that in their tour they won the last 29 games. Then in the play-off they defeated Finland, 11-1; Norway, 8-0; Britain, 17-1; United States, 16-2; Switzerland, 5-1 and Sweden, 5-1.
This, I am told, is the thirteenth such title won for Canada since 1924. Will you join with me, Mr. Speaker, in congratulating Alberta, the fine young city of Lethbridge, and the Lethbridge Maple Leafs?

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY

Mr. Abbott moved:: Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $413,758,902.33. being one-sixth of the amount of each of the several items to be voted, as set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1952, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament; and in addition thereto, a sum not exceeding $1,644,656.25, being three-quarters of the

amount of items 62, 121, 204, 470, a sum not exceeding $4,040,634.67, being one-third of the amount of items 39, 456, 463, a sum not exceeding $536,759.17, being one-sixth of the amount of items 88, 566, 206, 209, 210, and a sum not exceeding $1,322,403.33, being one-twelfth of items 86 , 386, 395, 398 , 401, 411, 412, 415 , 417 , 420 , 451, 458 , 460, 495, of the said estimates, be granted to His Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1952.
He said: Mr. Chairman, the bill to be founded on this resolution is in exactly the same form as the bill we passed about this time last year.
It will provide one-sixth, that is to say two months, of all the items to be voted in the main estimates for the fiscal year 1951-52.
It will provide an additional three-quarters of four special items to provide for services on which the whole or greater part of the charges will come for payment within the first few months of the year.
It will provide an additional one-third of three special items to provide for services coming for payment within the first few months of the year but which do not require as great a proportion as the items to which I have just referred.
It will provide an additional one-sixth of five special items of which two are required to meet early in the year requirements of external affairs officers abroad, and three to cover the sessional expenses of the Senate and House of Commons, on which, as hon. members of the committee are aware, the heaviest charges come early in the year.
It will provide an additional one-twelfth of fourteen special items, mainly of a seasonal nature, connected with the experimental farms and so on, where heavier than normal proportions .are required to get activities under way in the early part of the year.
The general proportion of one-sixth for all services is intended to provide for all necessary ordinary requirements to the end of May. The additional proportions requested for certain special items, as I have indicated, are necessary because of the seasonal and sessional services affected, such as the sessional expenses of the Senate and the House of Commons, seasonal expenses of the Department of Resources and Development, early-in-the-year requirements of external affairs and trade of commerce for their offices abroad, and other services involving total commitments coming for payment in the first few months of the year.
In no instance is the total amount of any item being released. The form of the bill is exactly the same as the bill I introduced last year at about this time, and the several items are approximately the same as well. I give
Interim Supply
the usual undertaking that the passing of this bill will not prejudice the rights and privileges of hon. members to criticize and discuss any item in the estimates which will come up for consideration from time to time during the balance of the session.


George Alexander Drew: In view of the statement that has been made by the Minister of Finance perhaps it is hardly necessary to add anything; but so there may be no doubt about it, approval of this motion does not imply acceptance of the contents of any of the items to which this resolution refers. It simply follows the established practice of making the necessary amount available to carry on the business of government until the accounts can be fully examined.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


Clarence Gillis: In the past it has been the practice of the government to give financial assistance in the marketing of feed grains across the country. Last year I believe about $18 million was spent for this purpose. I notice that in the regular estimates there is an amount of $4 million allotted, but there is nothing in the supplementaries. I should like to find out from the minister if it is the intention of the government to discontinue the feed grain subsidy, and if not, can he so assure the committee?


Douglas Charles Abbott: The estimates, Mr. Chairman, are in exactly the same form as they have been for several years past in so far as this item is concerned-freight assistance on western feed grain. It has been the practice to include in the main estimates an amount sufficient to pay this assistance until the end of the current crop year. The crop year, I understand ends about the end of July, and our fiscal year ends on March 31. We now have in last year's estimates an amount sufficient to carry it until the end of this month. The main estimates now before the committee provide for the continuance of feed grain assistance until July 31, the end of the crop year.
As has been the case in previous years, during the period between now and the time the main supplementaries are brought down, usually in June, the question as to the continuation of this assistance in the same or some other form will be considered. In past years, an amount sufficient to continue the freight assistance has been included in those supplementaries. As my hon. friend has pointed out, it amounts to between $18 million and $20 million to cover a full year. No consideration has yet been given as to what policy shall be followed with respect to the period after July 31. That will be brought, of course, before the house when the main

Interim Supply
supplementaries are tabled, late in May or early June. Does that answer my hon. friend's question?


Clarence Gillis: No, not exactly. I did have unofficial assurance that it was not the intention of the government to discontinue the feed grain subsidy. There has been a lot of anxiety among farm organizations, in maritime organizations particularly, concerning not only feed grains but fertilizer which was also subsidized. In view of that anxiety, and certain statements that have been made in the press, can the minister not give the assurance that it is not the intention of the government to discontinue the feed grain subsidy? I would interpret his statement to mean that at least the present arrangement will carry on until the end of July, but that there has-been no decision whether it will be continued beyond that date. That sort of statement is likely to convince those who are anxious about the present arrangement that there is some doubt whether the feed grain subsidy is to be continued. It certainly leaves a doubt in the minds of those who may read that statement.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The situation is exactly the same as it has been in past years. The doubt may have arisen by reason of the fact that in this year's estimates, following a suggestion by the public accounts committee, a great deal more detailed information has been included. It is pointed out that the $4 million for this year is approximately the same as the amount in the estimates for last year, and it covers only the time up to the end of the current crop year. It is not customary to forecast government policy in advance of final decision.
I do not think I should add anything to the statement I made a moment ago. We are following the same practice as has been followed in prior estimates for several years. The reason why the small amount is included now is that the crop year overlaps the fiscal year.


Major James William Coldwell: I do not want to be out of order when the further supplementary estimates are before the house; consequently I am taking this opportunity of drawing the attention of the government, particularly of the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Finance, to a situation to which I referred just a year ago. In 1944 we appropriated $200 million for the support of agricultural prices other than wheat. This year I have again received, from the same person who wrote to me last year, a complaint about the lack of support for the potato growers of Prince Edward Island.
	Iff j
The minister will recall that last year I referred to a complaint from O'Leary railroad station in Prince Edward Island. Within the past few days the gentleman who wrote to me from there last year has written to me from Toronto. He says that he is in Toronto because the price received for his potatoes this year has been so low that he has had to move there to try to earn a little money to carry on his farming operations in Prince Edward Island. With his letter he enclosed his receipts for potatoes sold. I find that, between January 10 and February 22 of this year, the range of prices he received for his potatoes, before paying four cents a bushel for trucking, was 45 cents per bushel at the highest point and 40 cents per bushel at the lowest-that is for No. 1 Canadian table potatoes.
It seems to me that there is ground for complaint on the part of the potato growers of Prince Edward Island, and the other maritime provinces. I would draw attention to the fact that the appropriation which we thought was going to be used for the support of such agricultural prices has not been used to the extent that the house expected. As a matter of fact, in 1949, immediately before the general election, money from the agricultural price support appropriation was used, and that winter this man received an average of 69 cents a bushel. As 1 have said, within the last few months he received 40 to 45 cents per bushel, less the four cents for trucking, which brings it down to 36 and 41 cents respectively. I believe every hon. member will agree, without going closely into costs of production-and we know that they are not low for that type of produce in Prince Edward Island, because of the cost of fertilizer and so on-that those prices do not return to the producer a reasonable amount to enable him to live in the way we expect the producers of agricultural products to live in this country.
I am seizing this opportunity to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Finance, indeed the government as a whole, to the end that some support may be given to these potato growers in the maritime provinces to enable them to continue to produce and to have a decent standard of living. After all, in the maritime provinces potatoes are an important agricultural product.


Mr. Fraser:: Mr. Chairman, I suggest that in addition to support the potato growers need protection. Today United States potatoes are being served in the parliamentary restaurant. These people are not getting any protection at all.


Mr. Gardiner:: The question which has just been brought forward is one which has been under discussion continually throughout this season. Arrangements have been made from time to time which have been helpful, but have not brought a final solution of the problem involved. About a week ago the minister of agriculture of the province of New Brunswick telephoned me to know whether or not we would be willing to receive a delegation which would present to the government the problems of the maritime potato growers. That delegation is here today. I have been discussing potatoes all forenoon with this delegation from the maritime provinces.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Can you see eye to eye?


James Garfield Gardiner: They are here this afternoon, as a matter of fact, meeting with a committee over in the agriculture department; and they are trying to work out some plan which may be of some assistance. I shall have a report, I expect, some time later in the day, or if not today, tomorrow morning, on the discussions which are now going on.
There are about 4,000 cars of potatoes unsold of this year's crop. That is not a quantity which is great as compared with other years. But the chief difficulty this year is that the potato price is very much lower in the United States than it was last year, or had been for some years previously, and when the double duty is applied at the end of the quota there is some doubt whether there is any market left in the United States for a considerable quantity of the potatoes, indeed probably for any of them. Under these circumstances it may be necessary to try to arrange some plan under which all the surplus can be converted into starch, or sold on the market in other parts of Canada as table potatoes. In any case, that is under consideration.


Major James William Coldwell: This condition has existed for some time. The house appropriated $200 million for support of such agricultural products, and apparently the support has not been given.


James Garfield Gardiner: There was support given earlier in the year, but it was to assist in marketing the potatoes in Europe. These markets did not develop, for reasons which I shall be in a better position to discuss when we get to the appropriate item in the estimates.


Mr. Hatfield:: I should like to draw to the attention of the minister the fact that the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar says that the price received by his friend on the island was 40 cents a bushel and 45 cents a bushel, less
Interim Supply
the trucking charge. The potato growers in New Brunswick sold potatoes as low as 25 cents a bushel, and some lower, less trucking charge, this fall, especially the veterans who had just taken up farming under the Veterans Land Act, and the young growers who have just started to farm.
The minister mentioned that there were
4.000	cars unsold. I believe there are 8,000 or 10,000 cars left in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. In New Brunswick there are six or seven thousand cars left, and I should like the minister to understand that. Every day now the banks and the machinery companies are seizing machinery from these potato growers, and the growers are leaving their farms by the dozens every week and going to Ontario to try to earn enough money to come back and pay their fertilizer bills so that they can carry on next year's farming operations.
I knew about the delegation being up here today. I hope that the minister will give them every encouragement, and that he will report to the house.


George Clyde Nowlan: The minister referred to the delegation that is here and the conferences which are going on. If it is decided to give support in this instance, will the Nova Scotia growers be accorded the same consideration as that which may be accorded to the growers of the other two provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: That question of course will come up, as it always does immediately any decision is reached on the other areas. But I would just like to correct what the hon. member (Mr. Hatfield) said. I think when information is given out which is correct it is hardly proper for an hon. member to rise in his place in the house and say that it is not correct. I went all over this with the representatives from New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island this morning, and it is not correct to say that there are 8,000 or
10.000	carloads now unsold. There are
4.000	carloads unsold; the others are sold but not yet delivered. The position is that there are 4,000 for which there is yet to be a market found. I think it is much better to take the correct information rather than a statement that is not correct.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I have been in this business for the last forty-five years. I do not know where the minister got his figures, was it from the members of the marketing board? I do not think he got them from them.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is exactly where I got them.


Heber Harold Hatfield: If I am any judge, there are
2.000	cars left in Prince Edward Island, and

Interim Supply
I am sure there are over 4,000 cars left in New Brunswick. After this time last year we had shipped over 3,600 cars to the United States; this year we are shipping very few cars there.


James Garfield Gardiner: According to the latest
information, there are 2,000 cars in, each province not sold.


Edmund Davie Fulton: When this problem of potatoes is under consideration and the whole matter is being looked into, I hope the minister will not lose sight of the fact that the potato growers in the interior of British Columbia had a very difficult year last year, mainly on account of the early United States competition. I am not going to take the time at this moment to go into that, because I do not think this is the right time to discuss the whole question of protection, but I do hope when this matter is under consideration the minister will bear that in mind. I am sure they would rather have steps taken to ensure them a local market than be dependent on subsidies. The two problems are interrelated, and I hope they will be so regarded.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.


Douglas Charles Abbott: that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Dion in the chair.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1952, the following sums be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, namely:
1.	The sum of $413,758,902.33, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1952;
2.	The sum of $1,644,656.25, being three-quarters of the amount of items 62, 121, 204, 470 of the said estimates:
3.	The sum of $4,040,634.67, being one-third of the amount of items 39, 456, 463 of the said estimates;
4.	The sum of $536,759.17, being one-sixth of the amount of items 88, 566, 206, 209, 210 of the said estimates; and
5.	The sum of $1,322,403.33, being one-twelfth of the amount of items 86 , 386, 395, 398, 401, 411, 412, 415 , 417 , 420, 451, 458, 460, 495 of the said estimates, as set forth in the resolution concurred in this day in the committee of supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Abbott thereupon moved tor leave to introduce Bill No. 169, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March, 1952.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Dion in the chair.
Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
On section 5-$536,759.17 granted for
1951-52.
Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: Mr. Chairman, are we supposed to get copies of what you are reading from? They have not been distributed.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Mr. Chairman, I doubt if there are copies yet available. It is the standard form of interim supply bill. Usually, by agreement, we put it through all stages at this time. I have given copies to the leader of each of the parties but it has not yet been made available for general distribution, although I think my hon. friend could get a copy a little later this afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 6 agreed to.
On section 7-Power to raise sums required for redeeming loans or obligations.
Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the minister whether there is, in section 7, any variation from the usual provisions.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am informed there is not. I have been assured that the terms of the bill, except for the appropriate changes in amounts, are identical with the interim appropriation bill which we passed last year.
I have not checked it myself.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 8 agreed to.
Preamble agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE Contingencies and miscellaneous-
5S4. To authorize the write-off from non-active assets to the consolidated deficit account of the net trading loss in the securities investment account incurred between April, 1940, and November, 1949 ($8,299,183.77), $1.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: We are always suspicious of these one-dollar items. I should like to know what this is for.


Douglas Charles Abbott: These proceedings this afternoon have gone so rapidly that I have not yet here with me my book containing the detailed information. I will have it here in a moment. Speaking from memory this item 584 is one of the dollar items which I think was indicated in the public accounts committee as a perfectly appropriate item. It is to authorize the write-off of the net trading loss in the securities investment account incurred between April, 1940, and November, 1949. I recall to the committee that there was some discussion in the house last year, and I indicated in some detail the operation of the securities investment account, colloquially known as our "X" account, in which the government purchased fairly substantial quantities of Dominion of Canada securities for various government funds. On the operation of that account, over the period referred to, there was a trading loss of some $8 million; but as against that, we earned some $50 million in interest accruals. This was taken up and explained in some detail, as I have mentioned, last year; and the insertion of this item in the estimates is to authorize the formal write-off of the trading loss in that account.


Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: Does this mean that we are now dealing in this way with the loss practically over ten years? And does this mean that this is the first time that this loss has come before us? I remember there was discussion about it.


Douglas Charles Abbott: We hold no securities in the account at the moment.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister just say a word about it? It was active and large over a period of years?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: And, as I
recall it, it covered several different accounts. Can the minister explain just what it is that has happened to cause the cessation entirely of that system?


Douglas Charles Abbott: One answer would be that the demand for dominion government securities has been such that it was found desirable to sell the securities in the account. That is a matter of monetary management, management of the public debt, as my hon. friend appreciates, and involves some exercise of judgment as to when these securities should be sold. As he has pointed out, it covers a period of some ten years.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What are the divisions of the accounts?
Supply-Finance


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am sorry, but I am without the memorandum to which I referred but for which I have sent. The item could be allowed to stand, but, speaking only from memory, I did give the house last year the approximate amount of the trading losses and this is to give statutory authority to writing those off the books.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I would be grateful if the minister would allow the item to stand.
Item stands.
General items of payroll costs including superannuation payments-
585. To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for supplementing other votes for the payment of salaries, wages and other paylist charges-further amount required, $2,000,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I take it this is the item that makes provision for the increases in civil service salaries which are to be made effective as from December 1, 1950?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct. This is the balance of the amount we estimated we would need to pay arrears from December 1 to March 31.


George Alexander Drew: Is the minister going to make a statement in regard to this?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I shall be happy to do so. The Prime Minister made a public statement on December 14, 1950, indicating the basis upon which it had been decided to give increases to the civil service. That statement indicated that it would be necessary to obtain a supplementary vote from parliament to cover them. I think I may have indicated previously that the cost of these increases for a full year will be something in the order of $30,000,000, so that for the four months of December, January, February and March something in the order of $9,000,000 will be paid out as supplementary payments.
There is a certain amount of money available to meet those payments in the votes of the various departments. In addition there is a certain amount left in the general salaries vote which, as the committee will recall, is the general vote available to provide for salary adjustments during the year. The information which we have received from the departments indicates that an additional amount of approximately $2,000,000 will be required in order to make the additional payment of some $9,000,000 representing the increases effective from December 1.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I certainly shall support this item and the proposal that our civil servants should get the increases which have been indicated. However, I should like to point out that civil servants are like other workers in this country in that the increases they get are all gone before they get them.

Supply-Finance


An hon. Member:: Before they are spent?


Stanley Howard Knowles: My hon. friend says, "Before they are spent." What I had in mind was the fact that the value of any increase is more than absorbed in the rising cost of living. The indication is that this increase is to be effective as from December 1, 1950. The last increase to civil servants was effective in October, 1948. During the period from October, 1948, to December 1, 1950, the cost of living rose by 11-5 points. Since the increase in civil servants' salaries and wages is put in terms of percentages it is only fair that I should translate that rise in the cost of living index from points to percentages. Therefore, I must say that the rise I have just referred to from October 1948 to December 1, 1950, was a rise of 7-2 per cent over the level as it stood in October 1948.
Before we get to the implementation of these increases we have had two further reports from the dominion bureau of statistics as to the cost of living index. The latest report is for February 1, 1951, at which time the over-all index stood at 175-2. That figure represents a rise in points from the last date of a civil service increase of 15-6 points. May I repeat that in terms of percentages? The cost of living has risen from October 1, 1948, the date of the last civil service increase, to the present time by 9-8 per cent over the October 1948 level.
I imagine that the minister will argue that the government is doing a fairly good job when they increase civil service salaries by what is reported to be an average of ten per cent. I understand that these increases vary from a low of four per cent to a high of 12-5 per cent.


Douglas Charles Abbott: The four per cent is in relation to the higher group. It starts at 10 per cent, goes up to 12J per cent and then drops rather sharply to four per cent.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Correct, and the over-all
average is about 10 per cent. May I point out that by the time the civil servants get this 10 per cent increase in salary to take care of the 9-8 per cent rise in the cost of living we will have passed the date at which the cost of living had risen by that amount. I am prepared to make the prediction that today the cost of living index is already considerably higher than it was on February 1.
In addition to the increased cost of living faced by civil servants there has also been an increase in the number of hours per week that they work. If my arithmetic is correct that works out to an increase of 6-8 per cent. In other words, this increase in salary will just compensate for the increase in the cost

of living up to February 1, 1951. It will not compensate for the increased cost of living that has taken place since then, and for the further increases in the cost of living that are bound to take place before civil service increases are considered again. Further, it does not compensate for the increased work week which is the lot of the civil service.
I do not want to go into too many figures, but if you were to work out an index for the civil service and were to start with October, 1948, as 100 across the board and then take into consideration the rise in the cost of living and the increased hours per week that civil servants work you would find that the index of real hourly earnings for civil servants as at February 1, 1951, would be 93-8.
All of this it seems to me highlights the problem of our civil servants. I know the minister will say that it is the usual role of members of the opposition to approve of what the government has brought down and then say that it has not gone far enough, but I ask him to consider seriously the position of the civil servants. The government denies to them any effective collective bargaining rights. There are various civil service organizations, but collective bargaining as we know it under the provisions of the Industrial Relations and Disputes Investigation Act is not open to civil servants. It is also a matter of record that once an increase has been brought down there has to be a considerable period before another one is provided. It is a relatively short period this time if you take it from October 1, 1948, to December 1, 1950, but that period of two years and two months means that they can hardly look for a revision of this new scale until some time in 1953.
It seems to me that raises the whole question whether consideration should not be given to some sort of automatic cost of living bonus for our civil servants. That idea has already become quite current in contracts that trade unions are able to negotiate with their employers. That is particularly true in the United States where quite a number of employees work under an escalator clause which provides that whenever there is a certain increase in the cost of living index there is an automatic increase in the salaries or wages of those covered by that contract.
I have been trying to find out whether there are any recent examples of the same practice in Canada. I understand that recently, as reported on page 9 of the Montreal Gazette of March 12, 1951, the Robert Simpson Company approved of a plan whereby for its employees there is to be a 30 cents per point per week increase, in other

words $1.30 a month, as the cost of living index goes up. Similarly on page 5 of the Toronto Globe and Mail of March 6, 1951, it is reported that General Motors of Canada has agreed to a similar escalator clause. In this case the provision is for $5 per month for each 4-point rise in the cost of living index. I am interested in those figures because they seem to have a scientific basis. As I understand it, the cost of living index was worked out for the years 1935-39 on the basis of what was taken to be the average expenditure of a group of typical wage earning families surveyed in the middle of that period. The budget of this group, so I am told, was $1,453 per year.
That means therefore that a rise in the cost of living index of 1 point represents an increase of $14.53 a year in the retail prices of goods priced in the index budget. I may say when one takes that figure of $14.53 for one point, which is one hundredth of the total budget of the families who were surveyed, that no account is taken of the increased standards of living which we all accept as part of the progress that we are pursuing. I recall as a matter of fact a discussion with the minister's parliamentary assistant on that very point. He may have thought he was arguing with me, but the fact is that we both took the position that we do not want a return to the standard of living envisaged by the cost of living index basket of goods and services that was taken as the norm in the years 1935-39.
In other words what I am saying now is a case for arguing that a one point rise in the cost of living index should be considered as requiring more than $14.53 per year to meet that rise. Nevertheless I am prepared to take that figure as a minimum because it can be argued mathematically on the basis of the figures that were taken in arriving at the cost of living index. If a one point rise in the cost of living index means an increase of $14.53 a year in the prices of the goods and services covered by the cost of living index, that means that for any employee to be compensated for an increase of one index point he should receive an additional 28 cents per week or $1.21 per month.
I point out that the figures I have just given for the Robert Simpson Company and General Motors of Canada are reasonably close to the figure of $1.21 per month per point increase in the cost of living index. With regard to our civil servants my feeling is that they are not going to be greatly comforted with the increase they are now to get. They are counting on what they know has been announced by the government but as
Supply-Finance
they look into the future, realizing it will be two or three years before their salaries can be reviewed again, they face the prospect of the cost of living index continuing to go up with the result that their latter position will be worse than what it was before the increase became effective.
It seems to me that the only solution to this kind of situation is for the government to work out a plan similar to that in effect in the case of many collective agreements in industry whereby our civil servants would automatically receive an increase in their income as the cost of living index goes up. As a matter of fact I went to the trouble to ascertain figures as to what increases in the cost of living index would involve. For example, if the cost of living index reaches a figure of 180 the supplement on that basis would have to be $11.12 per month, over and above the present increase, on the basis of the rise in the cost of living as from December 1, 1950. If it reaches 185 it would have to be $17.37 per month. If it reaches 190 it would have to be $23.62 per month.
I submit with the way the cost of living index is rising that those figures are not unlikely at all. My guess is that when we come back after the Easter recess and have the figure for March 1 we will find' that it has gone up another two or three points above 175-2, perhaps to over 178, and that before the end of the year we will be up to a figure such as 190. If the minister says that my figures indicate that it would be a costly business for the government to consider an automatic increase in the salaries of civil servants, may I reply to him that those figures indicate the loss that the cost of living increase means to the civil servants themselves. Certainly it would cost the government $23.62 per month per employee to compensate for a cost of living index of 190. Similarly the average civil servant will be just that much short over his position as at December, 1950, namely, $23.62 a month, if the cost of living index goes up to that figure, and there is no compensation. I would be glad to hear from the minister as to what consideration has been given by the government to the position of civil servants from here on until the next time when their salaries might be subject to revision.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Mr. Chairman, I do not know that I can add very much to what the Prime Minister said in the statement which he made outlining the proposed basis of increase to the civil service. In 1947 and 1948 the various civil service organizations urged upon the government the principle that salaries in the

Supply-Finance
public service should be directly related to the cost of living; in other words, that there should be an automatic increase with an increase in the cost of living index. As the committee will recall, that was tried during the war, and in the view of the government at any rate it had some very considerable defects. On both occasions to which I referred, in 1947 and 1948, the government decided not to accept that principle, mainly on the ground, I think, that it was not widely accepted in private employment, and because of the fact I think that we all recognized it would be very difficult to lower the bonus in the event of some decline in the cost of living. So on balance the government felt it was better to proceed on the principles I have outlined on several occasions, and which I think were reiterated by the Prime Minister in his statement to which I referred. As I have had occasion to say at other times, if the cost of living continued to climb of course the remuneration of civil servants would have to be adjusted, in the same way the remuneration of other groups in the community would have to be adjusted. Further than that I do not know that I would be prepared to elaborate at this time.


Mr. MacDougall:: The hon. member who spoke a moment ago dealt very effectively, I thought, with the question of the cost of living in connection with those who are now inside the service. I wonder if I would be in order now to discuss the question of those who are without the civil service, who also are in very dire straits.


The Chairman:: No.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I should like to accommodate my hon. friend but I am afraid he would be completely out of order. If we were to open that door I do not know just where we would be able to stop.


John Lorne MacDougall: Very well.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the hon. member mean government employees outside the civil service?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, I think he means wage earners generally.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
584. To authorize the write-off from non-active assets to the consolidated deficit account of the net trading loss in the securities investment account incurred between April, 1940, and November, 1949 ($8,299,183.77), $1.
Douglas Charles Abbott: I am sorry the hon. member for Greenwood has left the chamber; I now have the information he requested, which I might put on the record. I am sure it will meet his desire.

Between the fiscal years 1940-41 and 1949-50 the government of Canada purchased and sold its own securities pursuant to P.C. 10061 dated December 24, 1941. The purpose of these bond transactions was twofold; first, to profitably employ idle cash balances which the dominion had in the Bank of Canada and the chartered banks and which were not bearing interest; and secondly, to promote a better and sounder market for dominion securities during those years.
The face value of Dominion of Canada bonds purchased and sold during this period totalled $2,674,790,000. The cost of such securities was $2,715,145,837.34 and the proceeds from the sale thereof totalled $2,706,846,653.57, leaving a net trading loss of $8,299,183.77. Against this trading loss there was a total revenue from interest on the securities purchased of $53,067,559. This interest was taken into revenue each year as received and no portion thereof was used to reduce any possible losses on the principal amount involved in these bond transactions.
Last fiscal year, i.e., 1949-50, the amount of trading loss of $8,299,183.77 was written down in our books to non-active assets and accordingly constituted an expenditure charge in arriving at the budgetary surplus or decrease in net debt for the year. The purpose of this dollar item is merely to provide the necessary authority to write off this non-active account to the consolidated deficit account of Canada, which would have no effect on the budgetary surplus for 1950-51, nor on the net debt.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The other day in the public accounts committee it was brought out that securities totalling some $51 million had not been cashed by the public. I wonder if it would not be possible for the finance department to notify bondholders when a particular issue is going to be called, or when an issue is due. I say that because many people purchasing bonds today know nothing about such things. People have had bonds left to them, and they are just put away. We were told in the committee that one bond was taken and framed. So I wonder if it would not be possible for the department to notify these people that their bonds are being called or are maturing.


Douglas Charles Abbott: As my hon. friend knows, the great majority of the bonds outstanding are bearer bonds, so there is no way of knowing who the holders may be. My recollection is that when bonds mature, and certainly if they are called ahead of maturity, the practice invariably is, as is required by the bond, to publish in various newspaper and other organs of public information-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But that is only in the financial journals.


Douglas Charles Abbott: No; when bonds are called we publish in the daily press. I know, because we have an item in the finance department appropriations to cover the cost of that advertising. In the case of the different series of victory loans we have been calling progressively for the last few years, notices have been published in the newspapers. As to the publication of a notice in connection with a bond which on its face falls due on March 1, 1951, whether we should remind the public of that by advertising in the newspapers, I shall be glad to consider. I must say I have always felt that in the interests of economy and the wise use of public funds we should not spend money to draw attention to the fact that people hold an obligation of the dominion which is coming due on a certain date. But we all know people are apt to be a bit careless about these things and not pay too much attention to the due date of a government bond, so possibly consideration should be given to a modest expenditure for that sort of thing.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister says he has no record in connection with bearer bonds, but the department must have some kind of record because when a person cashes a coupon at the bank he must sign a slip.


Douglas Charles Abbott: We have no record at all. The income tax department may have some record of those who are cashing coupons; but the bearer bond, by its terms, means that it is a bearer security, and neither the finance department nor the bank of Canada has any idea who may be the owners of those bonds.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am grateful for the statement given by the minister, which makes it clear that actually you did charge this amount as an expenditure in the year ending March 31, 1950.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I believe that is correct.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Therefore
you put yourself in the position of turning it into a non-active asset which you could write off, and you are now writing it off. The amount involved was very large, $2,715,145,837.34, and the minister has pointed out that this was done for two reasons, first to employ idle cash balances, and second to promote a better and sounder market for dominion securities during those years. Could the minister say what was the total amount in those votes at any one time? That would give us an idea how much of that $2,700 million is buying and selling.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am afraid I could not, from memory. It was several hundred million dollars at one time, but it varied.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Finance
587. To provide for the transfer to the civil service superannuation account of a special government contribution of a portion of the amount by which the estimated liabilities exceed the balance in the account, $75,000,000.
Douglas Charles Abbott: I think perhaps I had better make a brief explanatory statement on this item, and give the house some background to this amount of $75 million which we are proposing as a special contribution to the superannuation account in order to provide for part of the deficiency which was accumulated in that account over a long period of years.
Under the Civil Service Superannuation Act, employees to whom the act applies contribute for current service at rates which range from 5 per cent to 6 per cent. In that regard may I say that male employees who were contributors prior to August 11, 1939, contribute 5 per cent. Other male employees in receipt of a salary of $1,200 or less contribute 5 per cent. Those in receipt of a salary of over $1,200 and not over $1,500 per annum contribute 51 per cent. Those in receipt of a salary of over $1,500 per annum contribute 6 per cent, while female employees contribute 5 per cent. Contributions may also be made for prior employment in the civil service, for some types of war service, and, under certain conditions, for prior pensionable service with a previous employer. The act does not require any specific contribution by the government but the practice has been to include annually an item in the estimates for a government contribution in an amount equal to the estimated current contributions of individuals in the previous fiscal year. In addition, interest at 4 per cent per annum is credited annually to the account, but no provision has been made heretofore for the matching by the government of past service contributions of employees.
The principal benefits under the act are calculated on the number of years of service, and the average salary for the last few years immediately preceding retirement. Contributions as provided for in the act with a matching contribution by the government will in general provide these benefits so long as the general level of salaries does not change appreciably. However, during the last decade or so there has been a substantial rise in the general salary level and future benefits under the act, being based on these higher salary levels, are thus greater than past contributions can provide.
I have been advised by the actuaries of the department of insurance that a substantial deficiency has accumulated, due principally to the rise in the general level of salaries and to the practice over the years of not crediting

Supply-Finance
the account with any government contribution for other than current service. An improvement in mortality among pensioners generally, and a tendency towards retirement at earlier ages, have also been factors contributing significantly to the deficit.
On the basis of an actuarial investigation made in the early thirties, there was a deficit of over $53 million in the account as of March 31, 1933. Two or three years ago we asked the actuaries of the department of insurance to undertake a further investigation and bring their earlier valuation up to date. While their report is not as yet in final shape, they advise me that the estimated accrued liability in respect of benefits under the superannuation act has continued to increase, and as of December 31, 1947, was in fact several times as large as the amount which we are providing for in this estimate. Hon. members will, of course, realize that what we are doing here is essentially to make a bookkeeping adjustment to reflect more accurately in our public accounts the magnitude of the liability to which the government of Canada is committed under this act. It is our hope that over the next few years it may be possible for us to make similar provisions for the remainder of the deficiency which has now been disclosed by the actuaries.
Although there is a substantial deficiency in the superannuation account, I think it is desirable to emphasize that it has arisen out of events of the past. While at a later date we propose to review the benefit and contribution provisions of the act with great care in the light of the detailed findings of the actuaries, present indications are that current contributions as provided in the act together with a matching contribution by the government will be probably about sufficient to cover benefits for employees entering the service in the future. If it should be found that the joint contributions of civil servants, and of the government as employer, are insufficient to cover the benefits provided by the act, we would hope to be able to suggest at this or the following session suitable amendments for the consideration of parliament.
I might also mention that the influences that have resulted in this deficit for which we are now making certain provision have not affected the civil service superannuation account alone, but have had a like influence on pension funds throughout the country. A great many other employers have had to make special contributions to their pension funds to offset similar deficits.


William Joseph Browne: Can the minister state whether there is any difference
(Mr. Abbott.]
between "superannuation fund" and "superannuation account", two expressions he used?


Douglas Charles Abbott: No, they are the same. The superannuation account is the account we carry in the public accounts of Canada.


William Joseph Browne: It would
seem, then, that contributions have about equalled payments out?


Douglas Charles Abbott: There has been a small surplus of $2 million or $3 million a year in the last couple of years in the actual payments into the fund as against payments out. That is not particularly significant from an actuarial point of view, because of the fact that the number of people in the service has been growing and, as I indicated in my statement, rates of pay have been increasing.


William Joseph Browne: Can the
minister give a little more detail about this vote of $75 million which his advisers have told him is needed?


Douglas Charles Abbott: If my hon. friend will read
my statement in Hansard, I think he will find I have given a comprehensive statement of the principles involved in this vote. The actuaries are still working on an analysis of the fund. As he will appreciate, and other members who know about these matters will appreciate, it is an extremely complicated calculation which involves the question of mortality tables, the ages of the civil servants, the contributions which are being made, the rate of growth in the service, and so on. I indicated that in 1933 when a survey was made during Mr. Bennett's time, the indication was that there was an actuarial deficit of approximately $50 million.


William Joseph Browne: A liability.


Douglas Charles Abbott: My friend appreciates that
this is a charge against the government of Canada. There is a contractual obligation that when an employee has served so long in the public service, having made certain contributions, he receives a retiring allowance based upon that length of service and upon his average salary prior to the time of retirement. It is to reflect more accurately in our public accounts the ultimate liability of the taxpayers of Canada with respect to this superannuation that we are now suggesting that this transfer be made.


William Joseph Browne: This $75
million will merely represent a book entry.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I said that in my statement,
that it is a book entry. We will credit the aocount with 4 per cent each year as earnings on the payment.


William Joseph Browne: There will be another vote for that?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is statutory; that is
included each year.


Mr. Gibson:: Did I hear the minister state
it would be 4 per cent?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Yes, that is right, on the funds in the superannuation account. That is the rate at which interest is credited on that account, and that has been the case ever since the fund was set up, I believe.


John Lambert Gibson: Would it not be more realistic to take the rate which the government pays on annuities to the general public?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is certainly favourable
from the point of view of the civil servants, yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I cannot but approve of
the action of the government in making good the bookkeeping deficiency which has been brought to their attention in connection with this matter. As the minister knows, there is another deficiency which I wish he would make good as well. He need not lounge back in his seat too far, as though I were going to make a long speech on this question. But I should like to remind him that the position of quite a group of our retired civil servants is still worsening.
On March 12 of this year, in response to a question of mine, sessional paper 102-C was tabled, bringing us up to date as to the number of retired civil servants that we have, and as to the amount of their pensions in various brackets. The total number of retired civil servants on pensions of one kind or another as at February 28 of this year was 9,877. In addition to that, there were 4,667 widows of pensioners drawing their share of the pension.
I find in this return, however, that of the 9.877 retired civil servants, 1,478 of them, or 15 per cent, are receiving pensions of less than $40 a month. That includes a group of 291 receiving pensions of less than $20 a month.
With respect to the widows, I find that out of 4,667 who are drawing their widows' pensions, being widows of retired civil servants, 2,647, or 57 per cent of them, are drawing pensions of less than $40 a month. That includes a group of 906 who are drawing pensions of less than $20 a month. I picked that particular figure of $40 a month because it is the old age pension figure; at least it is the maximum provided under federal legislation.
And as we know from the rising cost of living index, that figure of $40 a month today, in terms of 1935-39 dollar values, is worth less than $23 a month. I know all the arguments on the minister's side, as he knows
Supply-Finance
all the arguments on my side, because we have been throwing them back and forth for the last seven, eight or nine years. But it does seem that just as the minister now is bringing in an item of money to take care of something that arose out of a situation in the past, so he should face up to the problems of these people.
It has been pointed out that many of these people, whose case I argue, were people who v/ere working in the civil service during the early 1930's when there was a cut in their wages and salaries. Accordingly, the amount of the pension that they receive reflects the cut that they had to take at that time. But in the meantime-and the government has had something to do with it-the cost of living has gone up tremendously. I contend there is a moral obligation there that is equal to the contractual argument that the government uses, and that it is time that something was done to improve the position of those old, retired civil servants, particularly those in the lower brackets.
There were many above the $40 figure who would feel that their case should be argued as well, and so it should, but I make a special plea for those down in the very lowest brackets. The minister knows, because I have gone into it before, that some other governments do something about the position of their retired civil servants. I refer particularly to the three I mentioned on previous occasions, namely, the United Kingdom, Newfoundland and Saskatchewan; and I urge that further consideration be given to this matter.
I have had a great deal of correspondence with these people, as one might expect. Just a few days ago I was sent an exchange of correspondence between two retired civil servants one at The Pas, Manitoba, to a fellow retired civil servant in Winnipeg. They were discussing back and forth the situation, and the prospect for their future, and one asked the other what the situation might be if the new old age pension plan were to come into effect, and this was the reply:
I understand that we would come under that in addition to the pension that we are receiving now. According to reports, 19=2 may be when that would go into effect if passed. Unfortunately, a great number of us may be under the sod before then, or perhaps it might be fortunate for some of us if that happened.
That is not a nice way to put it, but it expresses the opinion of a great many of these people. They feel that, partly because their numbers are so small, they are literally being left out in the cold. I will not take more time on it now. I dare to hope that something might have got into the minister's

Supply-Finance
heart since the last time this was up, and that the matter might be reconsidered, namely, the matter of providing some cost of living bonus or other supplement for these people. I know the kind of letters I will get from them if nothing is done in the next little while-the minister will get them too-when they learn of the increase that we are providing for the civil servants, which I support. As a matter of fact, a few moments ago I was arguing that they should have a cost of living bonus as well. When they hear of this $75 million which is being provided to take care of the situation that flows out of the past they will wonder what it is that stands in the way of their getting an adjustment on their situation, their deficiency, which to them is very serious.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, it is not only a question of having a big heart. The minister has one, and everybody knows it. The hon. gentleman who has just spoken has said that the minister knows all about it. I know that he does. But I do not want him to forget one class of former civil servants, employees of the state. I mean the old employees of the Intercolonial Railway and the Prince Edward Island Railway and even the Temiscouata Railway. The former were civil servants inasmuch as the old Intercolonial was owned by the government before it was transferred to other companies with which it has been amalgamated. As the minister knows, the amount of superannuation of these employees is just a mere pittance, and I hope that the matter will be reconsidered by the government in due course. I know that the Prime Minister and all the members of the government are sympathetic to these people.
There is one thing that I want to say about the remarks made by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. He has asked for bonuses without any discrimination between the civil servants. I presume it was that. Well, there should be a difference established between civil servants, the difference between those who are useful to the state and those who are not. There must be some means to establish the value of any civil servant to the state. It is not only a matter of commiseration and pity. I realize as well as the hon. gentleman that not only civil servants are affected by the rise in the cost of living index. It affects us all. I know. If you have one civil servant who does positively nothing and is surrounded by his staff, just as the sultan is surrounded by his harem, and surrounded by girls who do nothing except knitting, and by men who do nothing but chew gum and read the paper, then I do not see what increase that man
should have. We should see the efficiency and the usefulness to the state of each civil servant, and that seems only fair.
When they get into the service they think they are into a charitable organization, and then they have only to repeat their laments for an increase in salary. Members of parliament should have the courage to say that some civil servants are not worth their salt.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We are talking now about
retired civil servants.


Jean-François Pouliot: Some are retired, yes. I am speaking of those who will be retired afterwards and1 will enjoy the benefits of that legislation. I do not say that of all civil servants. There may be the exception, I do not know; but there are some civil servants who are completely dumb, who are not worth their salt, who refuse to work, who are procrastinators. They are good for nothing. They come here and ask for an increase in salary just the same as those who work and do well. There is something else that struck me forcibly the other day. I was listening to the radio and I heard the voice of a youngster who was speaking in a high-pitched voice to a gathering of civil servants. He said: Gentlemen, if you are not satisfied with the answer of the Minister of Finance, remember the railway strike, and we will tell the government what to do. That fellow should have been fired at once. There should be no strikes among civil servants. There is no reason for that. That is not the tone in which to speak. If they come to speak to the government, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has said, submitting their grievances, I have no objection; but if they come on the warpath to tell the government: You must do this or we will strike; we will have a sympathy strike along with this group or that one, then I say they should not be received, and that the government should show a firm hand in dealing with them. Is the tail to run the head? We have seen that.
To the late prime minister I offered on a silver platter the control of the whole civil service, but he refused it at the time and it was lost forever-well, I hope not forever because I trust that the Prime Minister may be firm at the right moment, the Minister of Finance also, and all members of the government. As the supplementary estimates show clearly, they are ready to come to the assistance of civil servants who are worthy of consideration; but it is time to draw a distinction between those who are useful to the state and those who are not. I wonder how long it will take. They do not all deserve the same sympathy. There is a necessary distinction which must be made, and I hope that it will
[Mr. Knowles .1

be made in due course. I do not want the hon. member who has just spoken to say that I am not in sympathy with his suggestion. I am in sympathy with it, provided that those who get any benefit from it are those who are worthy of it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am glad to have the sympathy and support of the hon. member for Temiscouata for my suggestion that something should be done to improve the lot of retired civil servants, particularly those in the lower brackets. Since he has indicated his agreement with the basic contention that I am making, I will not take the time to spell out my disagreement with a number of things that he has said. I should like to say this, however, on behalf of civil servants generally. I think that they accept-not only because it is in the law, but as a matter of principle -the denial to them of the use of the strike weapon. There is no question about that so far as civil servants are concerned. What they complain about is the feeling that at times advantage is taken of them because they have not the same effective bargaining power that is enjoyed by some other workers in this country. That was the point I was making.


Jean-François Pouliot: If my hon. friend will pardon me, may I say that the other day I heard, with my own ears, over the radio, a man holding up the railway strike as an example, as a threat to the government, in order to get exactly what my hon. friend is advocating for them. I thought that was not the proper way to go about it. I hope that sort of thing will not occur again. That is all I want to say. But I was a witness to the lecture that was given on that occasion.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I will not deny that, but-


Douglas Charles Abbott: I have only one comment I want to make on my hon. friend's remarks. I do not know what the civil servants feel and I do not know whether my hon. friend can speak with authority as to what they feel; but they certainly are not justified in feeling that the government takes advantage of the fact that they are not organized and do not exercise the strike weapon in order to fix unfair levels of salaries and wages. So far as my own experience goes, it has been that we have tried to lean over backward for that very reason. I do not think there is any justification for saying that the civil servants' salary scales are lower because of the fact that they, quite properly, have not the right to strike. I could not allow that sort of statement to go unchallenged.


William Joseph Browne: Since the cost of living, from the time that controls
Supply-Finance
were first taken off, has risen about 60 points, has any consideration been given by the government to the giving of a cost of living bonus to these retired civil servants, especially those in the lower brackets to whom the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre referred?


Douglas Charles Abbott: My hon. friend has been in the house only a short time. As the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has said, I have dealt with this matter on numerous occasions. I do not know that I should attempt to reiterate what I then said, but briefly it is this. The right of the civil servant to superannuation is the same as any other contractual obligation. There are a great many people in this country who are not entitled to superannuation from anybody. They have to provide their own superannuation. There are a great many taxpayers in that position. I have never been able to see why one particular group who are paid out of taxpayers' money should receive preferential treatment. The people who have had to provide their own social security by small holdings of victory bonds and others who have had to provide their superannuation or its equivalent in other ways are not compensated out of public moneys for whatever increase there may have been in the cost of living. I am perhaps oversimplifying my argument, but the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre knows that I have elaborated it a great deal more on other occasions. In essence, that is the reason why the government feels that it is not justified in increasing this particular type of contractual obligation.


William Joseph Browne: I have only one comment to make and that is that I do not agree with the position taken; I think it is unsound and unjust.


Stanley Howard Knowles: As the minister says, we are both speaking in shorthand today, so far as our arguments are concerned. I simply want to make this reply to what he has said. These people are our employees, and I think that the government should be the model employer in this country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
588. Notwithstanding section 32 of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, to authorize payment under votes 678 and 679 of the Appropriation Act No. 4, 1950, of the federal government's share of the claims received after March 31, 1951, in respect of costs incurred as a result of the large fires in Rimouski and Cabano in May, 1950, where such claims are certified for payment by the commission named for that purpose by the government of the province of Quebec, $1.
Douglas Charles Abbott: Perhaps I should give a word of explanation of this item. In the further

Supply-Finance
supplementary estimates for the year now closing, the two votes referred to in this item were provided:
678.	To authorize and provide for a grant to assist the province of Quebec to meet costs incurred as a result of the large fire in Rimouski in May, 1950, $2,500,000.
679.	To authorize and provide for a grant to assist the province of Quebec to meet costs incurred as a result of the large fire in Cabano, in May, 1950, $300,000.
The wording of those original items, the votes to which I have just referred, envisaged the federal government making grants to the province of Quebec to meet costs incurred as a result of these fires. Subsequently, however, an arrangement was entered into between the federal and provincial governments whereby the two governments would share equally in such claims as were determined as justified and approved by the commissions set up to investigate claims arising out of the large fires at Rimouski and Cabano, in May, 1950.
In view of this new arrangement some payments will have to be made directly from the federal treasury after March 31, 1951.
During consideration of the main estimates for 1951-52-that is, the coming year-it was decided not to include therein items to continue these programs of assistance because it was felt that a final supplementary estimate amendment of this type, the type we are now considering, would be most in keeping with the original intention of parliament and of the government and would be most workable in the pursuit of that intention.
In other words, it is intended that the dollar item is really an amendment to the wording of the two original votes and is intended to constitute this as a continuing appropriation.


Jean-François Pouliot: Is it possible to have a list of all those who have made claims, showing the amounts they have received from this government and from the provincial government, in connection with Cabano at least, if not for both places?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Claims are paid after the two commissions, one for Cabano and the other for Rimouski, have approved them. On that authorization payment is made to the extent of 50 per cent from the federal treasury and 50 per cent from the provincial treasury. I would be glad to get that list and give it to my hon. friend.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
592. Expenses of work In the interest of fire prevention-further amount required. $3,000.
[Mr. Abbott.!
William Joseph Browne: What is this item for?


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is for printing, stationery and office equipment and the actual cost of reprinting 25,000 copies of a textbook on fire prevention education which exceeded the estimated cost by $4,700. This was due to changes having been made in the reprint. A portion of the excess cost will be paid from surplus and then the further additional amount will be required.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is this branch now fully staffed?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I think so, although I cannot answer that positively.


Stanley Howard Knowles: But the minister is not sure.


Douglas Charles Abbott: I do not think we have any authorized positions which are not filled at the moment. I might say that I consider this staff to be a highly competent one.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: How is this book distributed?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I am sorry but I cannot give my hon. friend that information. It is distributed under the direction of the dominion fire commissioner, but I cannot say just where it goes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS B-General-
580. The Canadian government's assessment for membership in the food and agriculture organization of the United Nations, further amount required. $109,000.
Mr. Wright:: Can the minister give us a brief outline of the work being carried on by this organization?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I think possibly the Minister of Agriculture would be-in a position to deal with this matter with more authority than I possess. As hon. members know, the food and agriculture organization is a specialized agency of the United Nations which deals with food and agricultural questions. Its membership consists of approximately 70 states, each with one vote in the conference or in the governing body which meets between conferences. The FAO is divided into technical divisions, of which I think there are seven. There are the divisions on agriculture, distribution, commerce, statistics, forestry and fisheries products, nutrition and rural welfare.
These divisions provide a wide range of fact-finding and advisory services designed to furnish information to the member states and to help them in the formulation of their agricultural policies. Canada has a real interest in the technical information obtained from

these various divisions. I believe the Department of Agriculture feels that useful services are being performed by them.
The FAO has been in existence for five years and during that period has established statistical services in the field of food, agriculture, forestry and fisheries which have been of use to our government and to the provincial agricultural services. The organization has also collected a great deal of technical information in these fields which has been made available to us and which has been of special assistance in the development of the agriculture of backward countries. If the hon. member would like to have more detailed information I can secure for him a copy of the report of FAO which deals with these matters at much greater length.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Is not most of this money being spent to send agricultural representatives behind the iron curtain to teach the people there how to farm with tractors and agricultural machinery bought with Marshall aid funds in order that the products may be shipped back to this country or to the United States?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I am not sure that I quite gather the import of my hon. friend's question. I would point out that there are no countries behind the iron curtain which are members of the food and agriculture organization. They have all withdrawn from that organization and are not now receiving any assistance from it.


Heber Harold Hatfield: They were receiving assistance. I was at the United Nations at Lake Success and we heard a man who had just come back from the Ukraine where he said he had been trying to show the farmers how to use tractors, gang plows and other agricultural machinery that had been shipped under the Marshall plan. Before that time they were using only wooden sticks for plows. He said he had been there all this time trying to show those people how to grow wheat with agricultural machinery sent from the United States under the Marshall plan.


George Clyde Nowlan: Could the minister tell us on what basis this amount is arrived at? Is it prorated between the countries?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The budget of this organization has been fixed this year by the United Nations at $5,000,000, and Canada's contribution is 4-11 per cent, which is slightly lower than the figure of 4-5 per cent, for last year. Our proportion on that basis would be roughly $205,500 U.S. or $217,000 Canadian.
The organization decided this year to move its headquarters from Washington to Rome
Supply-External Affairs and some additional expenditures must be made immediately. We, along with other countries, have been requested to make the contribution on next year's assessment available at as early a date as possible and this item is one-half of next year's contribution.


Heber Harold Hatfield: What can the Canadian
farmer expect to learn about agriculture from Rome?


Jean-François Pouliot: What is the total personnel of FAO? How many members of that personnel are Canadian? What is the top salary paid to any member of the FAO? Are they allowed travelling expenses?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have not that information available at the moment but I shall be glad to get it for my hon. friend. I know that the staff is pretty efficiently managed. I know the Minister of Agriculture will agree that there are some Canadians in important positions, the director of the fisheries division, for instance. As to salary scales and allowances and all that sort of thing, I shall have to secure that information and give it to my hon. friend.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am not so much interested in the efficiency as in the number.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Terminable services-
5S2. Contribution for the United Nations relief and rehabilitation program for Korea, $7,250,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: I wonder if the minister could give us a few comments on this item. It certainly deals with a very desirable move. Is this the first amount that we have been asked to vote for rehabilitation in Korea? What is the total amount being undertaken under the auspices of the United Nations? Can the minister give some comment as to the nature of the program and as to what progress is being made?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, at the last session of the general assembly a resolution was passed providing for a program of relief and rehabilitation for Korea where of course the need is very great and getting greater every day. A committee of the assembly discussed this matter at great length and a United Nations commission for relief and rehabilitation of Korea was set up. That organization drew up a plan of action and reported back to the United Nations. Its plan was also very carefully considered by the economic and social council. It is estimated that about $250 million will be required to meet the immediate needs. That of course will not begin to cover the whole problem of rehabilitation.

Supply-External Affairs


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is just relief?


Lester Bowles Pearson: That is relief only.


Mr. Graydon:: It will be worse now.


Lester Bowles Pearson: This was some weeks ago. Of course there has been more damage done since that time, and there have been more refugees moving south. It was felt that $250 million might see the organization through the immediate period of relief. Our delegation at that time thought it would be most desirable if this amount could be raised by assessment of all members on the basis of their proportions of contribution to the United Nations itself. We were not able to get sufficient support for that idea but a committee was set up to try to raise this money on some equitable and proportionate basis. As a result a high proportion of the $250 million has now been earmarked by various governments.
We felt that as a government we might ask parliament to agree to appropriate an amount which would be roughly proportionate to our share of the United Nations budget. For that reason we are asking approval for this estimate of $7,250,000 for Korean relief. The organization to supervise the expenditure of this money has been set up. The director general of the organization is Mr. Kingsley, who has been director general of the international refugee organization. He has been to Korea and has made arrangements that these relief supplies should be distributed through the unified command while operations are going on. We hope that this effort will be successful because there is no part of the world now where relief is more urgently needed than in Korea.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Can the minister give a list of the different nations that are contributing?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have at least a partial list. In addition to its military appropriations, the United States has already pledged some $162 million for Korean relief. The United Kingdom has allocated $28 million for relief. We are asking for an appropriation of $7,250,000; $4,500,000 has been appropriated each by Thailand and Australia, and something between $2 million and $3 million by the Philippines, Brazil and Uruguay. We also expect other contributions from other countries.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The communist nations are not contributing.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Not a bit.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I take it that thus far the money has been spent mainly on medical supplies, food, clothing and other things necessary for immediate relief. Do the terms


of the resolution voted by the United Nations envisage going on with a program of rehabilitation if and when the shooting is over?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes. This is a program of relief and rehabilitation but the funds that are being raised now will not be sufficient even to cover the immediate cost of relief.


Solon Earl Low: Is there any possibility of Russia and her satellites making a contribution eventually to this rehabilitation fund?


Lester Bowles Pearson: They have been given the opportunity but they have not seen fit to take advantage of it, and I think it a highly unlikely contingency that they will contribute.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Let us do our share anyway.


Gordon Graydon: In other words, the Soviet nations are doing the damage and we are having to pay for it.


Jean-François Pouliot: In the first place I would ask the minister to give the same information about the United Nations relief and works agency for Palestine refugees, the vote that was just passed, and the United Nations program for Korea as was requested for FAO. I should like to know the number of Canadians on the Palestine agency, the number of Canadians who have contributed to the rehabilitation program for Korea, the size of the staff, the highest salary and the lowest.
We are now rebuilding what we have destroyed. The temple of Jerusalem was destroyed and it was hard to rebuild it in three days. The destruction has taken place, and what surprises me is the amount of the contribution of the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada. I wonder if the amounts for rehabilitation are in proportion to the loss and damage caused to Korea by each of those countries. Naturally no one knows about that. United States bombers were there. They were very active and caused more damage than the Canadian destroyers or the few Canadian soldiers who have been there. That is evident.
I should also like to know how the United Nations came to establish Canada's share for the rehabilitation program in Korea at $7,250,000. What is the use of destruction when we have to rebuild afterwards? I know that life is perpetually recommencing. On the other hand, a country is destroyed and then we proceed to rebuild it again. Coventry is not yet rebuilt in its entirety. In many parts of Europe there are still ruins dating from the last conflict, and no new buildings have been erected there. I find it very sad. I am not a pessimist but we hear of war every time that there is a sitting of

the house. It is war, war, war. Now we are trying to rebuild what has been destroyed. Would it not have been easier not to destroy and therefore not have to rebuild?
That is a suggestion that may arouse the minds of some of my colleagues but I find that the war in Korea is very pitiful. I was the only one to say that in the house last June, and some hon. members gave me the cold shoulder at the time. What progress has been made in Korea up to now? The armies go up to the 38th parallel and they come down. Now they are nearing the 38th parallel and the newspapers are full of news of a possible total war. How can we rehabilitate Korea if we have a total war? There are some Canadians in Korea in the Canadian army. For a time they complained that they were not dressed warmly enough. I have every sympathy with the Korean people. It is not because they live in the antipodes that we have the right to be indifferent to their sufferings. As human beings they are entitled to our consideration and the consideration of the whole world. No country has publicized the tragedy and misery of Korea to such an extent as the United States, through the big magazines of that country which have published illustrations showing refugees wandering about in numbers, without shelter, deprived of food.
I ask the minister a supplementary question, which he may answer whenever he feels like it. If we vote this amount of $7,250,000 for the rehabilitation of Korea, can we be sure that our men there who may be wounded, and the Koreans themselves, will get some advantage from it? I hope so.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will try to get the information the hon. gentleman has requested in regard to these other agencies. As far as the Palestine agency is concerned, I do know that the director is a Canadian, and I can assure the hon. gentleman he is doing that work as an international duty and not because of any salary involved. The figure of $7,250,000 was not established for us by the United Nations; it is a figure this government thought fit to recommend to parliament as an estimate for this purpose. The other information I will get as soon as possible.


Jean-François Pouliot: But what was the basis for the computation of that amount? What made the minister come to the conclusion that $7,250,000 should be voted by the house?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The amount requested by the United Nations was $250 million. Our proportion of the expenses of the United Nations has been laid down as 3-2 per cent, and the application of that principle to this amount gave us roughly this figure.
Supply-External Affairs


Gordon Graydon: I congratulate the minister on at least having some principle and some mathematical calculation for this amount, which has been lacking in other instances.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I wonder if the minister could say anything in the most general way as to how the work is going to be done. What is the plan? How will this money be handled? He has explained the basis for the amount; perhaps he can tell us something about the way the undertaking will be proceeded with.


Lester Bowles Pearson: It is very difficult to answer that question at the present time. The director himself has just returned from Korea. He had long talks with the commander in Tokyo and with the commanders in the field, trying to work out an organization by which these relief supplies could be distributed. At the present time, with military operations going on, it will probably have to be brought under the supervision of the military in the field, but it is hoped that conditions will soon become stable enough so that the administration of relief may be turned over to this civilian agency and removed, to some extent at least, from military control. The position in that regard is not unlike what it was after the war in Europe, when the first stage of relief was handled by the soldiers in the field as military relief until UNRRA came in as a civilian organization. It is hoped that this will be done in Korea, but for obvious reasons these plans are still in a very formative stage.


Gordon Graydon: Will this relief and rehabilitation apply only to the portion of Korea south of the 38th parallel?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, it will apply to all that part of Korea which is under United Nations and republican Korean control. At present, of course, that does not include any territory north of the 38th parallel.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Can the minister give us any information regarding what relief is now being given in Korea? A great deal of relief work is being carried on in Korea at the present time, and I wonder if the minister could tell us about it.


Lester Bowles Pearson: There is a very great deal of relief work being carried on for several hundred thousands of these people. That is being done by the military authorities as part of military relief. It is also true, I think, that there have been some voluntary contributions to Korea, and that the Red Cross is helping out there under arrangements with the unified command. So far the relief has been largely military, however.

Supply-External Adairs


Gordon Graydon: From time to time we have seen in the newspapers reports of the movement by the military of certain civilian refugees from Korea to some adjoining islands. Could the minister give any indication of how many people have been taken off the mainland and what provision is being made for them at other places?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I am afraid I have not all those details at my command. I do know some thousands have been taken to islands not far from Korea and looked after there in relief establishments. There again, those establishments have been kept up by the military authorities at their expense, and by and large that means at the expense of the United States. So far relief has been almost entirely military, and it has covered many thousands of Korean refugees, some of whom are in these island camps.


Gordon Graydon: In the discussions at the
United Nations did the Soviets, either for themselves or speaking on behalf of red China, refuse to accept any responsibility for the damage that had been done?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Yes. The U.S.S.R. and the satellite states were invited to appear before this committee which was arranging for relief contributions and give some assurance that they would participate in this work. Naturally they refused to take any part in it. That is what one might have expected. They disclaimed all responsibility for this work because, again as one might have expected, they claimed it was due to the aggressive policies of the United States and other countries that this relief was necessary. Therefore, in their estimation, that relieved them of responsibility.


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not want to be considered heartless, but my impression of the whole thing is that the population of Korea has been bombed, revived, bombed again, and revived again. How long are we to continue that?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister has made it clear that at the moment, naturally I think, relief is being directed to the first and obvious necessity of keeping people alive. Is it possible now to say how far the objectives of relief go? For example, what measure of reconstruction of physical damage would it cover?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Any rehabilitation or reconstruction which is incidental to military operation no doubt will be carried on by the military. It is hoped that this United Nations agency will have responsibility not only for relief but for civilian rehabilitation and reconstruction afterwards, but of course that


Edmund Davie Fulton: This is another dollar item, one of those referred to in the public accounts committee as having a legislative effect. We have not had time to study the details, so would the minister give us some information in connection with this item?


Mr. Gregg:: Mr. Chairman, the purpose of this item 594 is to provide authority to effect the transfer of certain group annuity contracts to successor employers when a change of ownership has occurred, so that the pension rights of the employees under the group contract of such employers will not be affected. In the back of the book there is a list of such employers who, in many cases, have just changed their name. Legally that is interpreted as another corporate entity, and consequently it would be impossible to pay the pensions unless some such item as this were approved or unless an amendment were made to the act. This will be looked into when the act is again opened up.


Jean-François Pouliot: Just before the item is carried, may I say that I regret that government annuities are not more publicized because they are the best system of saving something for old age. I hope the minister will see to it that in due course government annuities receive greater publicity than ever so that people will know the advantages of that scheme.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the Minister of Labour to take into consideration a suggestion made three or four years ago in connection with the annuities act? Apparently it was given some consideration at that time, and it was that the annuities act be referred to a special committee for study. There is an exchange of questions and answers between the former minister of labour and myself which I shall not bother to recall in detail at this time. At any rate, that idea, though it was considered, was never carried out. If the minister does not give me a direct answer now, will he consider the idea of having this aot referred to a committee for study to see if there are not ways in which its benefits might be improved, and its publicity widened, as has just been suggested by the member for Temiscouata?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
595.	To authorize and provide for federal contributions to reimburse the province of Quebec for one-half the expenditure for the reconstruction of buildings of technical and marine schools, Rimouski, Quebec, and one-half the cost of re-equipping the technical school and to authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into an agreement with the province of Quebec for such expenditures, $330,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: Before this item is carried may I ask the minister if he would be kind enough to give me a list of the firms engaged in the construction work mentioned in this item, and the members of each of those building firms?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, the question refers to the item covering 50 per cent of the cost of the schools at Rimouski. I am sorry that I have not the detailed information available that my hon. friend is requesting. Our negotiations in this matter have been entirely with the government of the province of Quebec. We have received a report by the Theriault-Laurent commission indicating the validity of this total amount, which I believe they said would total about $659,000. On the basis of our regular participation of 50 per cent with the province, this amount is included in the estimates. Later I shall attempt to get perhaps the information for my hon. friend, if it is obtainable.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you.


Mr. White (Middlesex East):: Are funds available to the other provinces on the same basis as this grant to the technical school at Rimouski?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Well, funds have been available under the vocational training plan for some time. There is an item in the main estimates under that heading.
Supply-Labour


Harry Oliver White: This is not a special contribution of any kind?


Milton Fowler Gregg: This is a very special one, yes.


Harry Oliver White: Will the
minister go into a little more detail about it?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Chairman, this item covers the cost of replacing two schools that had been in operation there for a number of years, and which were destroyed in the the conflagration that occurred at Rimouski last spring. Arrangements were made with the provincial government that there would be a contribution of 50 per cent towards the damages suffered by a number of individuals, and in addition to that the federal government and provincial government would contribute on a 50 per cent basis to the rebuilding of these two schools which had been erected originally as a consequence of joint contributions made by these two governments.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will the minister state whether there is any insurance on buildings of this kind held by the government?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: There was insurance, and it was applied to the rebuilding, but the insurance was quite insufficient. The cost of the equipment is much more than the amount of the insurance. Originally the equipment for the marine school had been provided from war assets out of the "innards" of one of the corvettes. The insurance was for a sum much below the market value of equipment of that character when new. It cost more than the amount that was provided by the insurance to instal the kind of equipment required for this training.
When this matter arose I was concerned. I had been down there at the time of the fire, and I knew something of the situation. When these accounts were submitted, I found that they were high, and though the commission originally did not have any jurisdiction in respect of government property or property that had been contributed to jointly by the two governments, we asked that the commission check all the items to make sure whether or not proper care had been taken in the restoring of the schools. As a matter of fact the people down there had gone ahead with the work, making their own arrangements. There was a corporation administering this marine school, and they had gone ahead on their own because they wanted it re-established as rapidly as possible. We had agreed that we would contribute 50 per cent of the cost of the contract provided it was let to the lowest tenderer. As a matter of fact, when that arrangement was made the thing was already more than two-thirds completed. In order to be sure that it had been carefully handled, we asked

Supply-Labour
the commissioners to go down and inquire into the whole situation. Their report was that if we were going to do the work now, because of cost increases, it would cost even more; that they bad salvaged everything that could be salvaged, and that the matter had been handled in a workmanlike manner by the corporation comprised1 of citizens of Rimouski. It is on the basis of the certificates given by the commission that the item was proposed in the estimates.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The Prime Minister suggests that the original equipment for the school was obtained from a corvette and so obtained cheaply?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Originally, yes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: And for that reason he suggests the insurance on it was very low. Is that the principle on which they base their insurance when they equip other government buildings?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: This was insured in the name of the corporation that is made up of the citizens of Rimouski who had founded this thing in a spirit of public service, and they had been supplied with the equipment for the training of sailors.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It happens all over Canada.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: If I remember rightly they had insured for $75,000. That was the amount of insurance that they carried on the equipment. That was probably more than they had paid War Assets Corporation for the equipment, but it was not anything like the cost of new equipment today to replace it.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
The Deputy Chairman:: The committee was considering item 595, in the Department of Labour. Shall the item carry?


Mr. Knight:: Mr. Chairman, this is an item to authorize and provide for federal contributions to reimburse the province of Quebec for one-half the expenditure for the reconstruction of buildings of technical and marine schools at Rimouski, Quebec, and one-half the cost of re-equipping the technical school, and to authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into an agreement with the province of Quebec for such expenditures.
May I say first of all that this item has my hearty support. I presume these unfortunate people lost their schools through the fire, and they are now being helped by the federal government to restore those educational facilities.

It is a worthy cause, and I hope the government has made the grant sufficiently large.
However while supporting this expenditure I would point out that this is a grant in aid to education in Quebec. It is a grant from the dominion government to a province, and earmarked as an expenditure for education. The last three words in the item, "for such expenditures", are reminiscent of the last few words of the resolution I moved on February 22 of this year. Those words were, "by the granting of financial assistance to the various provinces for that purpose." I see my genial friend, the Minister of National Health and Welfare, in his seat, and I would recall to his mind that it was on those words that he based his special and final argument.
Here is a dominion grant for an expenditure on education, such expenditure to be given to a province. We have every sympathy in the world for this town which suffered so disastrously from fire, and we are pleased to see that they are being given this assistance. However I would point out that while this is a special case-and this is what I rose to say-a district such as the town of Rimouski which was prosperous enough to afford that type of school on its own account, but which lost it through fire, is in no worse plight than many corresponding districts which have never been able to afford that type of school, simply because of a lack of ability to pay for it.
I hope the people of Quebec will not feel that this grant is interfering in any way with their autonomy in matters of provincial education, or that that autonomy has been violated by the giving of this grant, or that dominion-provincial relations will be impaired thereby. I presume this grant is being given without suggestion of any control whatsoever by the dominion government, except that it be spent for the purposes indicated in the vote. I am sure someone will disagree with me before long when I say that this is just another precedent in a long list of precedents of grants earmarked for purposes of education, and which have been granted by the federal government to a province.


Harry Oliver White: Mr. Chairman, all hon. members appreciate the full explanation given by the Prime Minister with respect to this grant. I am wondering however, as did the hon. member who has just taken his seat, if we are now setting a precedent, and whether we may look forward to its being extended over a wider area so that it will not be confined alone to the province of Quebec; or is it a precedent which in future the government may regret? If we are going to base our grants on needs and expectations- and I refer in passing to the $65 million grant

-there will be many municipalities in Canada that will be hoping to come under the same provision or to receive the same help from the federal treasury.
Some time ago I mentioned that the burden of taxation on real estate was becoming very heavy, and that I hoped the federal government would see its way clear to give grants in aid of education to a degree greater than has been done in the past. I have been wondering how many students were going to the school in question, and how great an area it serves.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, I am not able to answer the last question, but I shall try to get the information for my hon. friend. Referring to the comment made by both hon. members, however, they both know that in their respective provinces, as in all provinces of Canada, a federal-provincial program has been under way in the field of vocational and technical training. This operates on a two-way basis: on the one hand by way of assistance in capital expenditures, which would correspond with the present instance- and consequently this does not set a new precedent-and, on the other hand, assistance to vocational training students.
When the main estimates are before the committee I shall be able to give a full report in this matter as it affects all provinces, and at that time I shall endeavour to have details with regard to this particular school.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Chairman, I have a figure here which indicates that 342 students had been enrolled up to October. I understand that a considerable number have been refused because they were being housed in what formerly had been a shed, and such facilities could not be made sufficient to care for any more than the 342.
This happened to be a school; but it was a part of the aid extended in the province of Quebec because of the disaster that had occurred. That aid was extended, not particularly in respect of schools, but as a part of the general aid extended following the precedent that had been established in connection with the Fraser valley floods, and then the Red river floods, as a consequence of a disaster that, rightly or wrongly, was regarded as being too extensive to be left to the resources of the locality.
It happened to be a school; but it was because of the nature of the disaster-and in that respect I am sure the hon. member hopes, as I do, that it is a precedent of disaster that will not occur very often elsewhere.


Jean-François Pouliot: I must thank the Prime Minister for what he has said. But I will say to
80709-9O2
Supply-Labour
the member for Middlesex East, who is a popular member in the house, that his remarks about Rimouski were most untimely. I am not the member from Rimouski, but I know the situation there, and I was greatly surprised that the hon. member for Middlesex East had no observation to make about an amount which is twice as large for the Palestine refugees. Over $7,250,000 was voted for Korea, but here is an amount of only $330,000 which is to equal the amount being spent by the province of Quebec. Yet questions are being asked about it. I notice the hon. member for Peel was in favour of the money being spent for Korea, but my friend complains about this grant for Rimouski. I hope in future he will be more judicious about his parliamentary intervention.


Harry Oliver White: The hon. member for Temiscouata seems a little touchy on this subject.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, I am.


Harry Oliver White: I was seeking information; I was not complaining.


Mr. Maclnnis:: Mr. Chairman, I am sure that all members of the committee will approve wholeheartedly of this appropriation and its purpose. As the Minister of Labour has said, aid for technical education by the federal government is nothing new. We have been giving such aid for many years. If the federal government can constitutionally make grants in aid of technical education, they can make grants in aid of any kind of education. All this argument about the federal government not being able to do it because of the constitution is just so much nonsense. It is just merely something that is said because there is no will to do it.
The Prime Minister is usually quite logical and clear on nearly all matters that he discusses in this house, and he stated that this grant was made because of the fire last summer in Rimouski. If a disaster of that kind is sufficient basis for a grant of this kind I think teachers and those who have to do with education throughout the provinces would be able to tell the Prime Minister that there is a condition existing that amounts to disaster in the failure of the provinces to provide all the education required to equalize educational opportunity among the people of the provinces. There is an urgent situation there which makes nonsense of the government's argument that nothing can be done because education is a matter that is under the control of the provinces. Where there is a will there is a way, as this item so well demonstrates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Labour
B-Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-
596.	Government's contribution to the unemployment insurance fund-further amount required, $3,350,000,
John Lorne MacDougall: Mr. Chairman, this is the second attempt today I have made to speak about a matter which I think is of extreme importance to all members of this house. I shall start off by complimenting the government, and particularly the Minister of Labour, upon the work they are doing with respect to the screening of the film "Date of Birth." The pamphlet which has gone out with respect to that film I believe has done a tremendous amount of good for a great number of people in Canada. It is of that particular group that this film was designed to assist that I wish to speak tonight.
There has been a tendency to refer to men and women in industry and unfortunately in the civil service as being too old at forty-five years. I think that argument is completely and utterly erroneous and in order to indicate what happens when we consider a cross-section of Canada, I have tabulated, not to the nth degree, what would happen to the membership of this House of Commons if everyone over forty-five years was ruled out of court. It was rather startling to me when I went through the red bible of the parliamentarians to find that if we removed those who are forty-five years or over from the house with a membership of 262, we would have only 66 members, and among those would be just two cabinet ministers. It might be that such a housecleaning would expedite the business of the house, but I rather doubt it. If the numerical strength of the house were decreased, the quality generally of the house would be decreased.
I give those figures simply to illustrate the over-all picture in the Dominion of Canada. I intend to deal only with the age group of 45 to 69. I find that there are 1,431,000 males in that group and 1,312,000 females, or a total of 2,743,000, or roughly 20 per cent of our total population. I have taken those figures from the Canada Year Book of 1950 and they are applicable to the end of 1948.
Coming now to what the Department of Labour is endeavouring to do with respect to this age group, I commend for hon. members' consideration a pamphlet which has been put out by the Department of Labour over the signature of the deputy minister entitled, "A progress report on 'Date of Birth' ". In that pamphlet we find some helpful information. It brings us up to January 15, and on page two there are certain

comments which I should like to draw to the attention of the committee as follows:
The film was designed to bring to the attention of the Canadian public, and community and national leaders in particular, the problem of the older worker in obtaining employment with a view to expanding employment opportunities for these workers.
We find that this film has been shown in Canada 751 times, and that it had a total audience of approximately 58,000. Here are some of the comments after the film had been seen by various executives and businessmen across the length and breadth of our land. On the same page paragraph (b) reads:
In an Alberta city the personnel manager of a large department store telephoned the local office to state that as a direct result of seeing the film this firm was placing an order for five older people to train as sales clerks.
Paragraph (c) reads:
. . . the sales manager of a large firm reported he was hiring thirty salesmen in western Canada. After seeing the film he decided to insert in his advertisement "that age is no barrier." This advertisement was to appear in all western newspapers.
Paragraph (d) on the same page reads:
After a showing of the film to the personnel managers' association the personnel director of one department store reported that he had revised the age radius in several occupations in their store to include workers from forty-five upwards in their hiring program.
On page 4 we also find some very revealing information. Toward the bottom of the page, with reference to the Ontario region there is the following:
I unhesitatingly believe that this film has done an outstanding job in placing before the proper persons the problem of the older worker with a lasting effect, and in many cases direct results.
There have been beneficial and practical results. In addition there is the following:
For example, there is no doubt that the twenty-eight showings of the film in the Toronto area have developed an impetus in opportunities for senior citizens. Many individual orders have resulted from this publicity. As a result of one showing six orders were received in the local office for older workers.
I think that this is one of the very important bits of work that the present government is carrying on to a degree of great fruition. We are short of many skilled labourers in the Dominion of Canada. We also have many semi-retired people who actually are not desirous of attaining full retirement and have not at the present time . a sufficient bank roll to maintain themselves. They have a great desire to work if and when work is provided for them to do. Many authorities have been quoted in this house, all of whom I presume are in the nature of things much greater authorities than I, but I should like to quote what I stated with

respect to this problem on a radio broadcast to the Vancouver area on March 6. At that time I said:
It seems to me there is one particular class in the Canadian community that must now be afforded some additional protection against the high cost of living. That is the great community of people across Canada who are on fixed incomes. It matters not whether those fixed incomes are old age pensions, annuities, disability pensions, veterans allowances, or retired pensioners from industry and the civil service. It seems to me that these groups are the ones who should have greatest consideration immediately by measures which will alleviate their present situation. I think it is also fair to say that the time is now opportune for the government and parliament to consider the question of men and women who are considered too old at forty-five . . . I am sure we are all agreed that forty-five years of age does not mean that a man's or woman's capacity to produce is over, and with such a great amount of manpower being required in our defence efforts this is the logical time for parliament to consider giving a better deal than now exists for those in this age category.
There are revealing figures in the Canada Year Book with respect to this problem. I think it was Horace Greeley who at one time said:	Go west, young man, and grow up
with the country. I might reiterate that when you look over the list of figures compiled in the Canada Year Book you find that there is a surplus of men in Canada in all age categories from forty-five up to seventy-five. But apparently when one reaches the three-quarter century mark in one's travails through this mundane sphere the old man of the family sloughs off through hard work in order that his wife may have some of the better things of life to think about after he has gone.
At seventy-five we see there is a complete balance of 85,000 males and 85,000 females. The ratio from then on up to 90 plus is all in favour of the widow or spinster. I am informed that there is a great plethora of females in the city of Ottawa, and so I say that what the girls should do is go west and grow up with the country. In the riding of Cariboo in the northern part of British Columbia-my hon. friend behind me nods his head-it has practically become a matter of notable history in Prince George that no girls who go into that country as nurses and school teachers have ever lasted in single blessedness for more than eighteen months.
To me there is a great urgency with respect to this problem. This afternoon one hon. member raised the point about securing a higher standard of living for our civil servants. I am all for that but, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I want to make a plea to you that we do something now, not next year or the year after, for men and women who are forty-five and cannot get into the civil
Supply-Labour
service. It seems to me a great many of those people are living on fixed incomes on a pension basis which have long since lost their purchasing power in the markets of this country. So I am very much in sympathy with doing something now to better the living conditions of those men and women on fixed incomes. As I have stated, only 66 persons in this house are under the age of 45, so I think it must be recognized that people over that age make a tremendous contribution to the biggest business in Canada, the business of governing the country. On the same basis, Mr. Chairman, I say those people have a great contribution to make whether within or without the civil service, provided the government will give them the opportunity to do so.
In thinking of this great question I tried to find out something about a gentleman who a few years ago started a business in one of the larger metropolitan centres of Canada. This man was disabled in the first war. When the second war broke out things were not too good, and he determined to start a business where the first consideration in hiring personnel would be that men or women should be selected who were 45 or over, either fit or suffering some disability from one cause or another. He found by actual comparison with conditions in a similar industry in another city that he was getting much less absenteeism from those employees of mature age who were to some extent physically handicapped. He also found that while a group of younger personnel might do a certain task quicker, over the long haul the older workers, men or women, disabled or otherwise, gave more continuous, active and efficient service.
Having that in mind I think we as members of parliament should give all possible assistance to the work outlined in this pamphlet, "Date of Birth", because this is the sort of liaison between employer and employee that industry throughout Canada needs today more than ever before, when in many categories of labour we are actually scraping the bottom of the barrel. Surely working together we can evolve some scheme to assist these people who will find themselves in dire straits unless they are able to secure employment.
I appreciate that people over this age have not been able to get into the civil service because of pension qualifications. Well, we have some excellent actuaries employed by the government, and I believe a way could be found to open the door to employment in the civil service for these people of 45 or over, who are so much steadier than people of 25. Surely we can find a way of making their employment possible, just as the provincial

Supply-Labour
government took steps to aid in the employment of disabled persons who returned from overseas after the last war. Arrangements were made in factories under provincial supervision whereby certain percentages of their time off through illness or accident were paid for by the employers as well as by the employees under the Workmen's Compensation Act.
I believe we should give this matter very serious and earnest consideration, because in this category of men and women across Canada I think we have a most stable influence in our whole national economy. It is not good enough for any government at any level to say these people on meagre pensions, regardless of the source of those pensions, have contributed to what they are now receiving and it is simply unfortunate that the purchasing power of the dollar now is not what it was when they were pensioned off. I join heartily in what was said today by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre about those in the civil service, only in reverse. I am expressing the same sentiments, I trust, when I say I am for those who are outside the civil service. I am anxious that they should get consideration equal to that given those in the service, and I believe a way can be found to do that.
I am going to conclude by suggesting to the government with all the force at my command that we come to grips with this problem, not next year or the year after but now. We should avail ourselves of the services of this group of men and women who do not desire charity but who are determined now as always to make their own way in life. Their only desire is to be of service to Canada, either their native or their adopted land. So, sir, in all sincerity I ask the most serious consideration of this problem by the government, so that before many days or weeks, we may come up with an answer that will give us individually and collectively a great lift because we will have done something for Canada. If it is good for Canada it is good for them and good for us. Vive le Canada! God save the King!


Mr. Carroll:: I agree with the hon. member who has just taken his seat, that this age limit that is placed against people forty-five years of age and over by both the civil service and industry of this country should not exist. As the hon. gentleman has pointed out, the reason industries say they cannot take these people into service is that they cannot make their pension plans actuarily sound. It is not on this particular matter that I wanted to say a few words this evening. We have a very serious situation in the coal mining town of Inverness. The

principal coal operation there is carried on by the government of Nova Scotia. It has been losing between $350,000 and $400,000 a year. Today there is a motion before the provincial legislature to have the government close down this mine. I may say that the members who are proposing it are not Conservative or C.C.F., but are supporters of the Liberal government of Nova Scotia.
Strange to say the man who is doing most of the objecting to the continuance of this operation comes to Ottawa about four or five times a year in order to get $125,000 to help a concern in the northern part of Cape Breton county get their products to market by giving them deeper dredging. I have supported that, too, but it does seem to me to be a dangerous precedent for the gentleman from Halifax who has made this motion. However, that is by the way.
I am in hopes, Mr. Chairman, that this mine will not be closed down this year. I should like to bring to the attention of the Department of Labour the fact that if this mine is closed down all those miners who are over forty-five years of age and out of employment will find it difficult to get work. The chief employer of miners in that area is the Dominion Coal Company and, rightly or wrongly, they do not employ people who are over forty-five years of age. There are a few other small coal operations around Inverness county, but they are well manned now. I am fearful of what is going to happen to those miners, roughly between 300 and 400, and their families if this mine should be closed this year or in the near future.
I am bringing this to the attention of the Minister of Labour in the hope that something can be done to assist those coal miners by way of unemployment insurance if this disaster should come about. Last year something very helpful to many people in my constituency was done, and that was the supplementary aid in connection with unemployment insurance. I know of eight or ten persons, not fishermen but people who were doing different work, who did not get the required number of days' works to qualify. The Department of Labour, through this unemployment insurance commission, did come to their aid when the matter was brought to their attention. Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether it is possible to do something about a situation such as this, but I am bringing it to the attention of the minister because I am fearful of what will happen in that time.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I want to express my gratitude to the member for Yancouver-Burrard for his encouraging words. I am sure that they

will, in truth, be encouraging to the officials of the national employment service, who come under the Minister of Labour, and also those who are also working to assist in the employment of older veterans, who come under my colleague the Minister of Veterans Affairs. The hon. member has brought forward a very important question. It is true that the employers of labour are increasingly sympathetic and receptive to the idea of employing older people. Owing to the depression of the thirties, the gospel was then preached that we should get people out of employment somewhere around sixty to make jobs for those coming along. Now we should, from two points of view, reverse our steps. First, from the point of view that those who want to work should have an opportunity to work, and also because of the need for greater production.
The film to which the hon. member referred has been well accepted across the country. While my officials have co-operated in its preparation, the fulsome compliments I have to divert to the national film board under the direction of my seatmate the Minister of Resources and Development. To the imagination and ability of the people on the film board who are responsible for producing this film goes most of the credit.
In speaking of the older workers may I say that they have, in fact, been incapacitated for work because they have not been given the opportunity to get jobs. We are trying our best to overcome that. These people are thus associated with another group namely those who are incapacitated for work because of some physical disability, and the reluctance on the part of industry in offering them jobs as compared with fit men and women. As for the second group, I am hoping that before too long my colleagues the Minister of National Health and Welfare and the Minister of Veterans Affairs will have an opportunity of telling the house some of the plans that were evolved during the federal-provincial conference at Toronto attended by the three of us early in February. At that time the important voluntary agencies, all provincial government departments affected, and all three federal government departments affected, were represented, and they worked out recommendations which I believe will be useful in helping to solve the problem of those incapacitated owing to physical defects. I can assure the member for Vancouver-Burrard that this whole problem is receiving the full consideration of the government, of my department, of the unemployment insurance commission and of the national employment service. These organizations are now
Supply-Labour
actively engaged in efforts for the improvement of the lot of the older and incapacitated workers.
In so far as the request made by the member for Inverness-Richmond is concerned, I shall be glad to look into that situation and see what we can do.


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Chairman, I just have a few observations to make on this item. At this stage of the session when the supplementary estimates are before us, I know it is not the proper time to make an extended speech. I should like to support the statement made by the member for Inverness-Richmond. That particular town has taken a bad beating for the past twenty years. It is a mining operation that was destroyed by faulty development under free enterprise. When it was no longer profitable it was taken over by the provincial government, and has been operating for the last twenty years more or less as a relief project.
Like many other industries in our economy, it is necessary but not self-supporting. That industry has been subsidized and operated by the provincial government over the years because it provides the means of a livelihood in that particular area, and is necessary to the economy of a large section of Cape Breton Island.
I have commended the provincial government for doing it. They pay wage rates prevailing in the rest of the industry, but because of the shrinkage of that particular operation over the past couple of years men have been laid off periodically. They have no chance of employment elsewhere because, as the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond pointed out, they have reached the age when organizations like the Dominion Coal and Steel Company will not take them on, and they are permanently unemployed, despite the fact that they are still productive.
There is a threat of closing the mine; and, as the hon. member has suggested, it will throw out of employment perhaps 300 men who have families, and who have a stake in the community. A town has been built around that industry. There is a big investment there on the part of the community. There are schools and churches, and that has to be taken into consideration.
My main objective in rising was to ask the Minister of Labour whether any thought has been given to the possibility of extending the unemployment insurance benefits, I do not say right across the country, but in areas such as the one referred to, which is affected in the manner indicated. A man becoming unemployed in that particular area, with a family on his hands, is through. There is not much chance of his getting out, and most

Supply-Labour
of them are over the employable age, because it is the national policy of every industry in Canada, and has been since 1945, not to employ a person over 40 years of age, and they are sticking to that policy.
With his officials the minister might consider the possibility of extending unemployment insurance in an area such as the one I describe until such time as more gainful employment can be found for these people either in that community or elsewhere, because if we can take 600 Germans to northern Ontario, pay transportation and train them in the metal industry of northern Ontario, then we certainly have a similar obligation to Canadian citizens who have been paying taxes over the years. That is not an unreasonable request. I would ask the minister to take a look at that particular subject.
My second point is this. Over the years there has been a demand to take in the fishing industry. There are hundreds of fishermen who are employed probably eight months or nine months of the year, but there is a period when they are out of employment. I do not think you would be adding any additional burden to the Unemployment Insurance Act if the fishing industry were taken in, because they are totally unemployed for only a couple of months of the year. The contribution you would get from that industry would offset any expenditures you may have to make during the seasons when certain types of fishermen are unemployed. I bring that again to the attention of the minister so that his actuaries may have a look at it and ascertain if it is not possible to. bring them under the act. But I want him definitely to be able to make an answer to the house before it closes next June or July on this particular program of extending the benefits of unemployment insurance to areas such as Inverness, and to other places where unemployment is a permanent thing, where, because of the present industrial policy right across the country, people over 40 years of age are not going to be employed any more. They are too young for pensions. There is no picture into which they can fit.
Another thing I want to mention to the minister is this. Anyone who says that industry is co-operating a hundred per cent with the employment offices does not know very much about it because it is not. In practically every industry that I know of employment offices have been set up. These industries have their own employment agents, and they by-pass completely the unemployment insurance offices which have a tabulation of all the unemployed in the area. Those offices know what these unemployed

people are fitted for, how long they are unemployed and what their family obligations are, and the unemployment insurance offices are in a position to give proper direction in every community across this country to the employers, if the employers will make their needs known to them and take direction from the offices, instead of setting up their own employment offices. In that respect they are not co-operating. They by-pass them.
But more than that, contracts are let by the government in many communities across this country. They are federal contracts. When the contractor comes in, instead of going to the employment offices and getting his men through those offices, he will accept slips from people all over the community, from local politicians of all kinds. I have been on jobs, and I have seen the type of personnel that a contractor had to take because of that vicious patronage system. His work was hampered, he told me, because he did not get the right type of man. He knew that if he had the right to go to the employment office, and if the employment officer could direct personnel to him, he would have obtained the kind of people he wanted.
I said I was not going to take very long. I hope the minister will take a look at tonight's Hansard before the end of the session and see if he cannot correct these few sore spots in the act.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is fortunate that the
Minister of Labour follows the footsteps of his predecessor, the late Mr. Mitchell. He is sincere and friendly and that is why he so often meets with success.
Unemployment insurance is a big organization, and the personnel is working in a satisfactory manner. I have just a question to ask the minister. I am sure he is not in a position to answer now but I hope he will be kind enough to convey the information when he gets it. I should like to know the number of people who have received unemployment insurance during the last twelve months in each of the constituencies of the city of Winnipeg. How much was paid during that period for unemployment insurance in each constituency?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
597.	To reimburse the unemployment insurance fund under section 87F(1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act. 1940, as amended by statute of 1950, $1,780,000.
William Joseph Browne: I notice that this item comes under section 87F (1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act. There were four new classes added by the amendment of last year. Has the minister figures to show

how much is for each class? What I particularly rose for was to speak about the operation of the unemployment assistance that we had in Newfoundland in the winter of 1949-50. Through inexperience I suppose as much as inadvertence, several hundred, I believe indeed thousands, of persons were not considered eligible for this unemployment assistance. Mistakes were made by the officials handling unemployment insurance for the first time. I was speaking to the manager down there, Mr. O'Grady, of the case of several workers who had 85 days in instead of 90 days. He admitted to me that it was possible to work now the other five days, on this new arrangement. That was done in several of the cases of the workmen, but one of the minor officials said it could not be done in the other case. I wonder if the minister knows now about that position? My first question was with regard to the proportion of this money which will be spent on the different classes.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall read the remarks of the hon. member for Cape Breton South as they appear in Hansard, and do what can be done.
The hon. member who has just taken his seat will recall that last year upon the amendment made to the Unemployment Insurance Act the supplementary payments were payable only from February 28 until April 15. Consequently it was quite a rush for the officials in all parts of Canada to get the new changes into the picture. I would imagine there may have been cases where some who felt they were entitled to supplementary benefits did not get them because of a lack of a clear understanding of the regulations. I have in my hand a document which shows that the amount of supplementary benefits paid in Newfoundland during that short period was $3,955.90. This amount was expended in the last fiscal year, and this item in the estimates is to reimburse the fund to the extent of $1,780,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE National health branch-Health services
[Stage Direction]
604. Food and drugs, further amount required, $10,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: I was under the impression that the Food and Drugs Act was still under the Department of National Revenue. Apparently however it has been transferred to the Department of National Health and Welfare.
There are three kinds of gin: there is gin; there is compound gin, and there is blended gin. I would ask the minister for the formula for each kind of gin.
19. 1951
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Alphonse Fournier: May we have these two items in the department stand; the minister is not here. I suggest that we take item 577, in the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.


Jean-François Pouliot: I would like to have a description of each of those gins. It may be printed; it may be publicized-I do not know. However I do not want the item to stand, because I am sure the minister would be willing to give the information tomorrow.


Alphonse Fournier: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall item 604
carry?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Some of us have questions we would like to ask the minister.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Then items 604 and 605 will stand.
Item stands.


[Stage Direction]
Immigration branch-
577. To provide for payments to Trans-Canada Airlines of the difference in cost between air transportation and minimum tourist class ocean transportation for immigrants transported from the United Kingdom by Trans-Canada Airlines during the period of November 29, 1950, to March 31, 1951, $380,000.
Frank Exton Lennard: May we have an explanation?


Major James William Coldwell: This is something that
members of the house know very little about?


Frank Exton Lennard: That is why I wish to have an explanation.


Major James William Coldwell: Could the minister give us a brief explanation of what this means, what is being done, and how the money is being spent?


Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Mr. Chairman, in order to speed the movement of immigrants to Canada it was decided at December 1 that T.C.A. might be used to some extent. The plan evolved was that any immigrant starting from the United Kingdom, though not necessarily a person resident in the United Kingdom, might come by T.C.A., upon the payment of $160, which is the tourist passage by steamship, and that the remaining portion of the normal passage cost on T.C.A. would be met by the government. That works out to $215.50. There will be something like 1,750 of these persons between the period December 1 and March 31, at the end of the fiscal year.


Major James William Coldwell: Are those specially selected people? Are they technicians or specialists of any kind?

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Walter Edward Harris: We try to give priority to them. But a good deal of it depends upon the desire of the immigrant to come by that particular form of transportation.


Frank Exton Lennard: How does the minister arrive at this amount?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister has explained with regard to the difference between the $160 and the T.C.A. fare paid under this item. I do not think he told us however who pays the $160.


Walter Edward Harris: The immigrant pays the $160.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would the
minister take us into his confidence and tell us more about the plan? What happens to the people when they get the fare? Do they have to have a certain minimum of money when they arrive? There are several things of which I am ignorant and which it seems to me would be of interest to hon. members- unless, of course, others are better informed than I am. If not perhaps the minister would give some further information.


Walter Edward Harris: There is nothing unusual about this. It applies to any immigrant who can meet our requirements otherwise. I could discuss the requirements in connection with immigration when we are discussing other items, quite as well as in connection with this one. There are absolutely no strings attached, except that one who wishes to come by T.C.A. has to pay the $160. And of course such persons must have met all the other requirements of our immigration program.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is this the
appropriate place to ask what arrangements if any there are for his housing when he arrives, and for his employment? If the minister would prefer to discuss the matter at some other time, I do not mind. However, it is a question which it seems to me is relevant.


Walter Edward Harris: Those matters
are relevant to all problems of immigration, of course. But anyone from the United Kingdom is entitled to come to Canada, if such person has met the health requirements and has some means whereby he will not be a public charge. He does not necessarily have to have assured employment, although in most cases he should have a sponsor for that purpose. I venture to say that ninety-nine per cent of these people are either persons coming to assured employment, or the dependents of persons already here.


Edmund Davie Fulton: How many did the minister say he anticipates will be here by March 31?
[Mr. Coldwell.)


Walter Edward Harris: About 1,750,
within a few one way or the other.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am not very good at
arithmetic, but if one divides this $380,000 by $115, the amount the minister said the department had put up-


Walter Edward Harris: It is $215.50.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Oh, I did not hear the figure.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are these all from the United Kingdom?


Walter Edward Harris: No. It applies
to anyone who is in the United Kingdom and who wishes to come forward by this means.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They must come to the United Kingdom first?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, the real crux
of the problem of immigration has not been touched by hon. members who have asked these questions. The real crux of the problem is this: Do we need immigrants?


An hon. Member:: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: One hon. member says yes.


Frank Exton Lennard: I say yes, too.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is a matter of opinion. When I went to London some years ago I met a gentleman who told be that Duchess So and So desired to see me. I was greatly impressed because that was the first time that such a thing had happened to me. I went to pay my respects to the beautiful duchess and she told me she had been in Canada and had found it a beautiful country, but there were not enough people there. I told her that if she decided to come to Canada again she would be one more charming person in our country. She smiled graciously.
Then I went back to where I was staying and another gentleman came to see me and told me another lady would like to see me. I told him I was pleased but I had just been to see a duchess and did not want to see anyone else. He told me that she was Marchioness So and So, and I told him I would go to see her. The marchioness asked me if I was a member of parliament and I told her I was. She told me that she thought Canada was a great country, that she understood its motto was, "From sea to sea," between two oceans. I told her in that way it was the same as England, only larger. She also thought that there was not enough population. She told me we needed more people in Canada.
That is the kind of propaganda that is used, flattery and fine words from attractive women. It did not go further. I am sure the hon.

member who suggested a minute ago that there should be more immigration has met many duchesses and marchionesses and countesses who think Canada is a great country but without enough people.
There are many unemployed in this country and I do not think they are all just day labourers. We are told that the immigrants who come here are technicians and specialists in trade and industry. If they are, well and good. But if they are coming here to take the place of Canadians in our hospitals or in our labour ranks, then I am opposed to it. I am making a clear distinction. There are some hon. members who are such imperialists that whenever a man or woman comes from any European country through Great Britain they consider it is something like the buildings that were marked with the blood of the lamb at the time of the Jews in the Old Testament-they are O.K., they have passed through the holy land of our time. That is not enough.
On the part of all men in the labour ranks who are not employed I protest against the bringing to Canada of anyone who is not a specialist in industry.


An hon. Member:: From where?


Jean-François Pouliot: Anyone from anywhere who is a specialist in industry. I am not anti-British, I am pro-Canadian. I want to make that clear because there are some people who do not seem to understand it. They are ready to swallow anything under a British label. We must be Canadians first. I know that many people are unemployed and what has been said tonight about unemployment insurance confirms that fact. We are having to pay unemployment insurance benefits to Canadians and yet the doors are wide open for people to come in from outside to enjoy these benefits at the expense of the Canadian taxpayers.
I am not against immigration, but as I said in Westminster hall in London, Canada is not to be a dumping ground for all the nations in the world. We have to look after our own people first. We have unemployment insurance and it must be available to those who have been here long enough to qualify them for the payment of taxation that is paid by other Canadians.
We should welcome specialists in industry from all countries of the world, but we should not have to receive migratory birds who will be just passers-by with an ultimate destination in the United States or some South American country. I am in favour of bona fide immigrants, but I am not in favour of the other type. I ask the minister how many 80709-9U
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration immigrants have come here during the last twelve months to take the place of Canadians in hospitals?
How is it that no member of the opposition has given any information to the minister about the charges that have been laid against immigration officials in the old country or on the continent? Do they suffer from amnesia?


Edmund Davie Fulton: The hon. member has been
speaking most of the time.


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. member from
Kamloops is like all the other Tories. They are all ready to swallow anything, to swallow immigrants from all parts of the world who come here to take the place of Canadians who are unemployed.


An hon. Member:: Liberal policy.


Jean-François Pouliot: Hon. members should remember that their leader hired planes to bring more Britishers to Ontario and I would refresh their memories in regard to that.


An hon. Member:: Good immigrants.


An hon. Member:: None better.


An hon. Member:: Where would you get
them?


Jean-François Pouliot: Immigrants from Great
Britain, immigrants from Europe or the continent, immigrants from the United States if they find Canada to be a better country, immigrants from anywhere provided they are willing to be Canadians, provided that they are fit, provided that they are self-supporting.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: We were
all immigrants originally.


Jean-François Pouliot: They may come from anywhere. I know people from the Nordic countries and central Europe who are excellent Canadian citizens. I know of people from the British isles who are good Canadians. As I said before in the house, some of them are better than people who were born here. That is not new. I said it before.


An hon. Member:: Say it again.


Jean-François Pouliot: If the hon. member does not
remember what I said a minute ago he is too hard to teach and I shall not repeat it. We hear speeches about the fundamental freedoms and the rights of men but when anyone expresses his own opinion in the house in the defence of Canadians by birth, or Canadians by adoption, it is taboo. It should not be said. Well, no Tory or anybody else will prevent me from saying what I sincerely believe it my duty to say in the House of Commons.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: We like to hear you rant.
1416	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you. My hon. friends know that I have no rancour but I want to warn the government against the intrusion into this country of many people who will be a burden for the taxpayers within a short time.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Jean-François Pouliot: Now that my hon. friends
agree with me I thank them, and I hope in the future they will always agree with me.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Are any of these fares
xecoverable or are they entirely subsidized .by the government?


Walter Edward Harris: The $160 is paid by the immigrant. The $215 is paid by the government and is not recoverable.


Mr. Fleming:: Mr. Chairman, the committee lias been given some information as to what seem to me to be the bare essentials that go Into the making up of this item. Certain questions have .been asked by the hon. member for Temiscouata concerning which I think the committee is entitled to an answer. I think there are answers to some of the questions he has asked, and it seems to me it is the duty of the minister to provide them.
I should like to make one or two observations about the item. As we have been told by the minister, it provides for assistance of this particular kind to immigrants during the four-month period commencing December 1 and ending on the 31st of this month. It is anticipated there will be approximately 1,700 to 1,750 immigrants who will be taking advantage of this subsidy towards the expense of their air transport.
We should be told how this fits into some scheme. This is more than a four-month scheme. When it was announced in December I think the country was given to understand this was the beginning of a scheme that was to be continuous. It seems to me that the committee has not yet been given information on some essential aspects of this matter. It is obvious that the 1,700 people are merely a fraction of those who will be coming to our shores as immigrants during this four-month period. One must naturally ask, how is it that certain immigrants are selected to have the benefit of this subsidy, some small fraction out of the total? What is the basis of selection? Is it simply those who wish to come by air, or is it rather those who have special aptitudes or skills that are in urgent demand in this country at the present time?
We have been given no information on that subject, and it seems to me it is highly essential information that the committee ought to have. If there are intending immigrants who have skills that are in urgent demand in this


country at the present time, is 1,700 the total of such or is 1,700 the total for whom in this four-month period transportation space is available? What is it that determines the number, 1,700 or 1,750 in the four-month period? How then does this plan relate to plans for the coming year? Surely there is something much more in the minds of the government than simply a limited appropriation now to meet the needs of a limited number of immigrants for a limited period. Surely we should have a more comprehensive statement from the government. We sit here and' have to prod and needle all the time to get little tidbits of information. It seems to me it is high time the government came out in the open and made a comprehensive statement on the subject.
That leads me to make an observation concerning the questions put to the minister by the hon. member for Temiscouata. One does not have to share all the views expressed by the hon. member for Temiscouata to appreciate the force of some of the questions he has asked. I am. quite sure the minister has the answers to some of the questions put by the hon. member for Temiscouata. I am another member of this house who would like to hear a statement from the minister as to the number of immigrants who have become charges, who have been found later .to have health defects that were not discerned at the time of entry, and how many of them have become charges on the unemployment insurance fund.
Let us have the information in order that we may determine whether the hon. member for Temiscouata is drawing sound or unsound inferences. I think the minister has the answers to these questions, and I urge him to give them to the house so that there may be some serious attempt to set at rest a lot of these questions that are raised from time to time as they have been tonight.


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, I do not have at this moment any figures to indicate that any persons in hospitals- have been displaced by immigrants. There may be some. If there are complaints of that kind of course we will look into them. We do have these complaints made regularly. We investigate them, and we do not say that there is not an immigrant hired in the place of someone but in many cases it is found that the inference to be drawn from that very thing is not that the immigrant has displaced the person who has lost his employment. I did not think that the house would want to engage in a long discussion of immigration. We have provision made in the main estimates for a continuation of this policy. I thought

that when, the main estimates came before the house we could have an extended debate on the whole policy of immigration, and the experience that has been built up in the past year. I think we could then debate it under circumstances that would be more conducive to coming to good conclusions than on the supplementary estimates of two or three items which are the result of a new policy devised since the house last met, and for which money is being voted for the limited period covered by the supplementaries.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not wish to be querulous with reference to the statement of the minister, but I do say that the committee has not been given the information at the present time that it ought to have. After all we are not suggesting-


Walter Edward Harris: What do you
want?


Donald Methuen Fleming: -an extended debate on the question of immigration policy. We are asking for essential information with respect to the plan for which an appropriation is to be provided for a four-month period. I have asked certain questions and the minister has given no information with regard to them. Has the minister nothing to say about this particular plan? I was not suggesting that we enter into a debate on the whole policy of immigration. I think, however, that a house that is being called upon now to vote $380,000, a tidy sum, for a four-month period for a particular plan is entitled to a good deal of information. Therefore I come back to the questions which I asked before and which were in the main unanswered.
How does this tie in with the plan? What is it that has established the figure of 1,700 or 1,750? Is it a limitation of the number of those who are applying for emigration from the United Kingdom and who have aptitudes and skills that are in urgent demand in this country at the present time? Is it a limitation on air transport facilities? What is it that has fixed this number? Let us have some information about it.
May I ask the minister also to be a little more explicit in dealing with the questions thrown about by the hon. member for Temiscouata, who seemed to be throwing them at the opposition benches instead of in the proper direction, namely, at the minister. Why should the opposition be expected to answer for the shortcomings-and goodness knows they are plenty-of the immigration policy of the government? I suggest to the hon. member for Temiscouata that this is an example of the error into which habit can lead even an earnest member of the house. When you get into the habit of railing at
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration those who happen to be sitting on the opposition benches, you are led info the habit of directing to the opposition benches questions concerning government policy and the elaboration of government immigration plans for which we modestly profess our inability to answer for the government. But I do think the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration owes it to all members of this house, not only the hon. member for Temiscouata but all those of us who have been asked by the hon. member to provide him with answers, to provide the information and answer the questions.


Jean-François Pouliot: I want to correct what has
been said for the hon. member for Eglinton. I never asked the opposition to give me any information about the immigration policy of the government. All 1 said was that they were completely silent on what I considered the essential matter in the immigration policy. I did not blame them for not answering me. I said I was very much surprised that they had not asked those questions on the basis of the immigration policy; that is all. Now I will excuse myself for having intervened at this point, because I see the minister is very anxious to answer the questions that have been put to him by myself and rebroadcast by the hon. member for Eglinton.


Mr. Gauthier (Porineuf):: I should like to say a few words on this very important matter, and at the outset of- my remarks I think I can say I concur to a certain extent in the words that have been uttered by the hon. member for Temiscouata. As he is against immigration unlimited, so I always will be opposed to immigration unlimited. I do not say that the plan mentioned by the minister is what we may call immigration unlimited; but while I am -not qualified to give the minister advice or warnings or anything like that, I can utter what is in mind on this special question, as I have always desired to do every time it has come before the house.
I should like to know, of those who have been coming and those who are to -come under this special arrangement how many technicians there were or will be, how many day labourers, how many farmers and so on. That would be very interesting to know, because as everyone is aware the percentage of population as between the cities and rural districts of Canada is increasing every day in favour of the cities. That situation should not exist, and certainly it should not be allowed to increase. Then I should like the minister to say whether under this scheme the screening of these immigrants will be as
1418	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration severe as the screening I called for the last time I took the floor on our immigration policy.
The hon. member for Temiscouata says no one has ever touched the main point of the immigration policy. There was an immigration policy which I believe is still the policy of the present minister; that is, that Canada must not receive more immigrants than she can absorb. This is the main point to be made on this question of immigration. If Canada cannot absorb more than let us say
75,000	or 100,000 a year, we should not bring in more than that number. There is one feature of this scheme I do not like very much, because I am afraid it might develop into some kind of a trade. I believe the minister stated that these immigrants will leave the United Kingdom by plane. That is O.K., but let us say a few thousand come from other countries on the continent. They cross to the United Kingdom to comply with this scheme. It could develop into some kind of a trade, which would not be desirable because it would make the screening that much harder.
I believe we cannot talk too often and too firmly on this question of the screening of immigrants, not only in relation to physical health but in relation to mental health, intellectual and moral health, and political health. I believe those requirements are not too hard to comply with, but in any case I feel they are absolutely necessary especially in this period in which we are living. I have great confidence in the minister. Last year he told me the screening was to be very severe, and I hope he will not forget that this screening should cover the various issues I have mentioned, especially moral and political health.
Sometimes, even in the rural districts, we hear criticism which appears to be well founded. Some say these immigrants, not all but a few or perhaps many, come here with the assurance that they will have jobs. They even leave the United Kingdom or some other country of Europe with the assurance that their jobs are here waiting for them. That is a criticism we hear very often. Another is that we have a very real problem of housing in this country. I have been told by people in Montreal that some immigrants even have houses ready for them here. I was told of two instances in which friends of mine wanted to buy houses built under a certain housing scheme, only to be told that those houses were being kept, or had even been sold to some company, for the use of immigrants. That is another criticism I should like the minister to deal with, if not on this item then on the general item in the estimates having to do with immigration.


Walter Edward Harris: As I said a moment ago, I would be pleased to do that. I think we could debate immigration policy much better on the main estimates than on this item; but with respect to the questions asked by the hon. member for Eglinton, as I understand it he wants to know why this was done, why it is apparently limited to 1,750, and the basis of selection of those 1,750.
It was done because one of the problems we had to face in immigration was the lack of transportation. T.C.A. is flying certain regular flights from the United Kingdom here. It seemed logical, if there was space on T.C.A., that we should take advantage of that space. The numbers who are coming forward are the numbers that can be provided with transportation on the regular flights for immigrants in seats that are not taken up by other types of passengers.
As a matter of interest, the plan was announced on December 1, and because it took some time for arrangements to be made, and because of the Christmas season, there were not many who wished to come forward at that time. There were 79 in December; in January 461; in February 577, and the first two days of March, 48, making a total of 1,165. We have estimated that there will be 1,750 by the end of March. As I said before, there is an item in the main estimates continuing this plan. We believe that as long as there is available space we could use it in this operation. Have I covered all the questions?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Would the minister just confirm one inference I have drawn from his remarks? That figure has been arrived at because of the limitation on space available by T.C.A.; that has been the factor that has established the number?


Walter Edward Harris: On the regular flights, yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then, within the ceiling established by the limitation of space on regular flights on T.C.A., what has been the basis of selection of the 1,700 from what must have been a larger number of applicants?


Walter Edward Harris: 
Donald Methuen Fleming: It comes down to this, then, that up to the present time the entire number of applicants has been contained within the limitation of space available on T.C.A., and there has been no selection?


Walter Edward Harris: And the numbers who indicated a desire to come in the summer months rather than in the winter months. As I say, we have bookings after March 31 of persons who in January said they would like to come by air in May or April or some other month.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Then what has been done to make the plan known in the United Kingdom or elsewhere where this type of immigrant has been invited?


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, there was a poster issued immediately by T.C.A. Shortly after, in connection with another item we have here providing for assisted passage, we put out posters on a limited scale. I should say that the transportation agencies found it most convenient to advertise the schemes themselves, and there is ample publicity now in the United Kingdom and elsewhere for this plan.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I quite agree with the member for Temiscouata that we should not dump a lot of people in this country unless they have employment. I take it that most of those people who are coming here have employment somewhere in Canada. Could the minister give by provinces the number of people who are coming in under this system?


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that this is not a special scheme, but only provides additional transportation facilities for those seeking to come to Canada from Europe. The persons who come under this scheme are persons who are otherwise admissible and who would come by ordinary passage if it were not for this scheme.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: They would come in the regular quotas?


Walter Edward Harris: We have no
quotas against any particular country. We have certain qualifications which were mentioned by the member for Portneuf. I could give the house the statistics for last year's immigration, which would be a good guide to what we would logically expect this year, but perhaps I would do it at a later time. The figures show that roughly 60 to 65 per cent of the immigrants indicated a desire to go to Quebec and Ontario, and the remainder to the maritimes and the west.


Major James William Coldwell: Will some of this amount of $380,000 be repayable? What I have in mind
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration is that I believe there are some assisted passages when an immigrant comes here for a special purpose, when the employer pays part of the $160 and the balance over a period of time. I was wondering if that is done by the Department of Immigration or is that a matter which is looked after by the Department of Labour? Does this item include any portion which is repayable?


Walter Edward Harris: No, Mr. Chairman, no part of this is repayable. The assisted passage item appears under loans and investments at the end.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I still have the feeling which the member for Eglinton expressed that we are still not getting this story except in bits and pieces. The minister has said this is not a special scheme but is part of a larger undertaking. I believe that is what the member for Eglinton had in mind. The member for Temiscouata made a particular suggestion which, so far as I know, has not been answered. It came to me as a surprise, but he suggested that the whole thing was unsound because of a substantial amount of unemployment. I have not heard that answered. It came to me as a surprise, but perhaps the minister can answer it.
Another thing one hears is that private organizations have immigration plans and are making their own attempts to get people in substantial numbers. Are those in any way integrated with the larger plan? From before Christmas I carry in my mind that we heard a number, not 1,700 or 17,000, but many tens of thousands, perhaps over 100,000 immigrants for this year. I cannot see why this is not the natural time for us to get a somewhat comprehensive outline as to what the plan is. It may be many weeks before we are on the main estimates concerning immigration, and surely plans must exist. Why is this not the natural time for us to hear about them? For some reason the minister does not want to give them out.


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, there is a later item for the assisted passage scheme, and I am sure that is what my hon. friend has in mind. If the committee reaches that item I shall go into detail on it, but I can only repeat what I said a minute ago that this is merely one method of providing transportation which is vitally needed because there is a scarcity of transportation for immigrants coming to Canada.


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister states that anyone who desires can come by air. I think that is what he said. Who determines whether an immigrant from the British isles comes by air or by boat? Is it entirely up to the immigrant?
1420	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Walter Edward Harris: It is entirely up to the immigrant.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Then, Mr. Chairman, are we bringing any immigrants from European countries by air?


Walter Edward Harris: T.C.A. only operates as far as the United Kingdom. If people come to the United Kingdom they can then use this plan if they can make arrangements with T.C.A.
Mr. Cold well: When the service is established to Paris, will Paris be a place of embarkation?


Walter Edward Harris: That is a matter of government policy and the decision will be announced in due course.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister said an immigrant can apply to T.C.A. I have cases of people in my riding who have sent transportation, or arranged for transportation with the Trans-Canada Air Lines, to bring immigrants from the United Kingdom to my riding. These people have had to pay the full fare. It happened within the last month or so. Has any arrangement been made to reimburse these people? The immigrants are coming here definitely to do a job as domestics. In most cases the domestic promised to pay half the fare and the employer the other half. Has any arrangement been made to reimburse them?


Walter Edward Harris: I shall look into the matter that my hon. friend has mentioned and see him privately about it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Something should be done about it. The people who have arranged the fares do not know about the assisted passage arrangement. They go down to the Trans-Canada Air Lines office and say: I want this to go to such and such an immigrant. The passage is arranged as to when the person can leave the United Kingdom to come here and that is all there is to it. It costs them full fare.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I was hoping that the minister was not going to brush off the questions put by the hon. member for Temiscouata without a fuller answer than he has just given. I should like to hear the minister make a comment on the suggestion that immigration has caused unemployment. The minister ought to be prepared to make a statement on the remarks made just a few minutes ago by the hon. member for Portneuf. He raised the question as to the absorptive capacity of this country. What has the government to say about the absorptive capacity of the country at the present time? How does it relate to the government's plans for encouraging immigration? We heard the


statement last December about the new plans. A question has been raised about the absorptive capacity of the country. The government should be prepared to give us a statement. They must have some conception of what they consider the absorptive capacity of the country to be at the present time. I ask the minister, for the benefit of all hon. members of the house, to answer these two important questions by the hon. member for Temiscouata and the hon. member for Portneuf, in relation to the plan of which this item is to provide for a part.


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: On the question
of the capacity of absorption, I said to the minister that I was ready to wait until the main item having to do with the policy on immigration was before the committee. I did not ask for a declaration from the minister right now. I am ready to wait until the special item on immigration comes before the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: It is before the house now.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: What is before the house now, Mr. Chairman, is a supplementary estimate to carry out the policy that was announced and approved by the house in the general estimates for the year 1950-51. All those who are coming by these amounts are immigrants who have been certified as admissible to Canada. There is not sufficient transportation for them all to get here by ship, and there were regular flights on the Trans-Canada Air Lines that were not taken up by the ordinary passengers at that season of the year, and it was thought that that would be a convenient way of hastening the transportation to Canada of persons who had been certified under the plan that was approved in the general estimates for the year 1950-51.
In the estimates for the year 1951-52 there are substantial sums for the whole of the services of the immigration department, and when they are being discussed I think the whole policy for the year 1951-52 should be discussed, but I do not think it is usual to discuss the policy for the coming year on a supplementary estimate to take care of the expenses incurred in the current year; and that is all that is provided for by the supplementary estimates. They are all persons who have been certified by the services established as admissible to Canada. They have not been able to get here by boat, and there were those empty seats, or there would have been those empty seats, on the Trans-Canada Air Lines. Trans-Canada Air Lines operates only between England or Scotland and Canada, and it was made known that those who wanted to come could be accommodated in that way when there were seats that had not been sold to the ordinary

passengers. They get notice that there are a certain number of seats available, and they have to be prepared to come on very short notice. They express some ultimate desire to come at a certain time. They are told, if there is space you can come at that time; but this will not provide for the 1951-52 program. That program will be up before the house in a general estimate, and there will be full opportunity to discuss it then.
I do not think anyone feels that there has been, up to the present time, any overtaxing of the absorptive capacity of the country with respect to immigrants who have come forward.


Jean-François Pouliot: This is the first satisfactory
explanation that the committee has got about item 577 of these estimates.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Are there among those
who find their way to England and come by air any number of displaced persons? Will the minister tell us how these displaced persons are screened? Who does the screening?


Walter Edward Harris: I do not use the
phrase "displaced persons" but those who do, I think, refer to persons under the management of the international refugee organization. If that is what my hon. friend has in mind, they do not come forward in this manner. They come from Europe by ordinary transportation.


Donald Methuen Fleming: It would be much easier to follow the Prime Minister in the statement he has just made if this item were not directly related to what was put before the people of Canada last December as a new plan.


Walter Edward Harris: By whom and when?


Donald Methuen Fleming: By the government in an announcement of the plan that was made. It may have been another case of someone speaking for the government; but certainly it was put before the people of Canada in the way I now describe and the government, so far as I am aware, has made no attempt to correct or alter the statement. It was that a plan was being inaugurated to bring 150,000 immigrants to Canada, and a concerted effort was to be made to interest in coming to Canada artisans and persons having those skills that are in urgent demand at the present time; and that to facilitate early movement of such immigrants into Canada with their skills the government was going to assist air passages and take other means to help bring these people to Canada at a time when their skills were in urgent demand. That, it seems to me, is the reason, and a very proper reason, why some of us have been asking questions
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration tonight designed to elicit necessary information relating to this item, because this item certainly represents the first four months' instalment of the new plan if the new plan is what the people of Canada were given last December to understand it to be.


Walter Edward Harris: The hon. member for Eglinton has entirely misconceived the information that he thinks he has received. In December the government of the province of Ontario made some announcement about their plans, and that is what I think my hon. friend was referring to, and what I think the hon. member for Greenwood was referring to.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is not what I was referring to.


Walter Edward Harris: We made no announcement whatever in December except the plan we are now debating which was to bring forward people by Trans-Canada Air Lines, and that took effect on the 1st of December. There was no other announcement made in that month except with respect to persons under P.C. 2115. Well, during January the minister made a speech in which he said that it was expected that 150,000 people might come to Canada during this year, if that is the matter that my hon. friend has in mind. It was at that point that we announced assisted passage, which may be debated under a subsequent item of the supplementaries.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister has shed some light on the subject. I should like to ask him, in view of the answer he has just given, if then it is a fact that there is no new plan, so far as the government is concerned, with respect to encouraging further immigration to Canada?


Walter Edward Harris: If my hon. friend will look at page 13 of the further supplementary estimates he will see there item 648, which has to do with an assisted passage scheme. That is the only scheme I think we have any purpose in debating at this point- when we come to it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is not an answer to my question. I do not want to take up the time of the house -


Alphonse Fournier: Oh no!


Some hon. Members:: No!


Donald Methuen Fleming: I can tell some hon. members that I do want to get on with the business of the house, and if they want to do so the best thing they can do is to encourage ministers to give direct and simple answers to questions.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member is out of order.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Douglas Charles Abbott: Ask simple questions, then.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not think I could put a more simple question than the last one, and it has not been answered yet.


Walter Edward Harris: What was that?


Donald Methuen Fleming: I will put the same question, to which I wish to have a short answer, in keeping with the standard prescribed by the Minister of Finance.


Douglas Charles Abbott: A high standard.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Am I to infer that there is no new plan with respect to immigration, so far as the government is concerned?


Walter Edward Harris: Of course not. I have said twice that there was one, and it is described in item 648, which we will come to shortly-if this is passed.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The answer is yes and no.


James Garfield Gardiner: The answer is that you are out of order.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, the Prime Minister has not clarified things at all. He has referred to a statement made in the session last year, when the regular estimates were before the House of Commons. There was no statement at that time which would explain the item now before us.
The minister knows perfectly well that the item now before us relates to an announcement made some time subsequent to the regular session, when it was stated that the government planned or that the government intended to provide part of the cost of air passages. There was some suggestion that it would apply particularly during the off season, when there would be space available on the transatlantic planes.
Now, that is a new plan, since the session. It being a new plan, a plan related.to this particular item, then I say this is the time for hon. members to find out why they are being asked to vote $380,000. I know that the figure mentioned here, without any explanation, of $380,000, may seem a mere pittance to a good many members; but the fact remains that at a time like this members should be asking themselves why they are voting this amount.
The minister has given a number of explanations in regard to the procedure by which intending immigrants may avail themselves of the funds available. A plan for assisted passages is justified only if it is a plan that is going to mean some substantial movement of people. If it is going to affect only a few people, then it simply means that some people who happen to learn about it will get a cheaper passage than others get, and it does


not mean any really important part of a planned immigration to this country. And, having regard to the expense of maintaining immigration offices, and carrying out the ordinary duties related to immigration, there simply is no justification for a plan of this kind, unless it is a real plan, and one that will bring a substantial number of people to this country.
The minister has explained that this is an additional amount which would take care of a substantial part of the passage-ini fact, more than half of the passage, where an immigrant applies for transportation by air and succeeds in getting it. It is available not only to people living in the British isles but it is also available to anyone who wishes to come to Canada, gets as far as the British isles and then decides to come the rest of the distance by air.
One of the things the minister certainly should explain in this connection, at a time when we are being asked to vote an item for the first time relating to this plan, is this: By what device does the immigration branch determine whether the individual who has arrived in England and is coming here is in fact a prospective immigrant, or is just a tourist who finds that this would be a cheap way to get to Canada?
Do not let the minister suggest that that does not happen. I know it does happen- and under a very much more carefully arranged plan than this. After all, why would not a person avail himself of this, unless there were some process which actually determined how this money is to be allocated? What the committee should have is an explanation in detail of a plan of this kind. We should know what the process is, from the time a person makes application until the time he gets here. Do they go to some office and do they then qualify before an immigration official for this special allowance, or do they simply go to the T.C.A. office in London, explain they want to fly to Canada and, if they get their reservation, make application under this plan?


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, I can well understand that the leader of the opposition has had some experience in this. It may be that the plan he had in mind did work in such a way that occasionally some took advantage of it as tourists. There is always the possibility that that would happen. But so far as I know now, we have not found that to happen in respect of the eleven hundred, odd, who have come forward.
The procedure is simple. The applicant arrives at the immigration office. He passes through all the processes of becoming an

immigrant. He is investigated1, as is any ordinary immigrant. If after that he is passed as an immigrant-not as a tourist-he then may obtain passage by T.C.A. under this plan. That is always provided, of course, that there are demands for his services in this country, and that he is in all probability urgently needed at this moment, or will be very shortly.


George Alexander Drew: That, Mr. Chairman, does not explain the detail at all. May I tell the minister, in case he has any wrong impressions, that not a handful of people among close to 20,000 who came into Ontario by air, under a different device, came for any purpose other than as straight immigrants. Nevertheless we did find that there might have been fifteen or twenty who availed themselves of the opportunity to come to Canada on a cheap fare-at that time it was $170.
I am only pointing out that in a plan of this kind, if an assisted passage is justified, there must be some definite procedure which assures that the assisted passage is for the purpose of bringing immigrants with a definite objective and who are going to be useful citizens in this country.
Now, it seems to me we have not yet anything before us to indicate that the immigration branch has assured itself in any way, first, that these people are really going to be able to fit into satisfactory jobs and, secondly, that they really are people who are coming out here with the idea of settling down as citizens in this country. If the minister has any explanation of that, then I certainly have not been able to find it in what he has said.


Walter Edward Harris: Perhaps the
leader of the opposition would accept my assurance that that is the case. I can disclose to him all the files of the 1,160 who have come. But let him for the moment, I hope, take my assurance that we check this movement of people, having in mind that it is an assisted passage-we check very carefully-and having in mind the necessity of bringing forward persons of the class he has described.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, this item 577 is to provide for payments to Trans-Canada Air Lines of the difference in cost in air transportation and minimum tourist class [DOT]ocean transportation for immigrants transported from the United Kingdom by Trans-Canada Air Lines during the period November 29, 1950, to March 31, 1951. This is the 19th of March and in twelve days we will have reached March 31. Is this $380,000 going to the T.C.A. to pay for past transportation or is it to pay for future transportation?
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Walter Edward Harris: It is for the
transportation of the 1,165 who had come up to March 2, and of the roughly 600 more we expect to come between March 2 and March 31.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: When the
minister was describing the requirements which are required in the case of people coming to Canada under this scheme he used the words, "provided that there is a demand for his services in this country." Will the minister state what means are taken by the authorities to satisfy themselves on that point?


Walter Edward Harris: If I understand the question correctly it relates to the destination of the immigrant. If the immigrant is coming to assured employment he will qualify under this if that employment is in something which is urgently required.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does that
mean that he will have made his own private arrangement with some person for employment?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes and no. There may be a demand sent by an employer to our offices in London which is filled in this manner or, alternatively, he may have made his own arrangements.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, a very
widespread impression has been created throughout this country that the government has inaugurated some new plan or policy with respect to immigration into Canada. Statements have been made and if they do not reflect government policy then I think in the interests of a proper understanding of the situation the house and country should be told.
Last September two senior officials of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, on the immigration side, when departing for Europe in connection with certain duties, were quoted in the newspapers as saying that the Canadian government aimed to step up the flow of immigrants to 150,000 or 175,000 a year. The two officials concerned were Mr. C. E. S. Smith, director of the immigration department, and his deputy, Mr. George A. Benoit. They were leaving for Europe with a view to concentrating their efforts, so the newspaper statement indicates, on Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland, and attaining that which had been described as the goal of the government in this stepped-up program.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Would the hon.
member quote the newspaper?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It appeared in several papers.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


An hon. Member:: Globe and Mail?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The statement was issued on September 25 on the departure of these two officials for Europe.


An hon. Member:: What paper?


Donald Methuen Fleming: It appeared in a number of papers. I am informed that it was made in Montreal on their departure for Europe. Whether the minister intended it or not, the speech which he made in Winnipeg on January 19 of this year was interpreted by many people as confirming the statement attributed to these officials in the previous September. The minister is reported in a Canadian Press dispatch from Winnipeg of January 19 as saying:
Our Objective-
Note the word "objective."
-for this year, assuming that conditions remain the same, is in the neighbourhood of 150,000. Of this number it is expected that over 30,000 will come from the United Kingdom. The balance will come largely from western Europe and will include some refugees.
Later on in the same dispatch the minister is quoted as saying:
Immigration is of great importance to Canada today. Through a vigorous, yet carefully controlled immigration program lies the solution to meeting, in part at least, the problem of national defence, and any real ability to participate fully in united undertakings against aggression. I
I think the minister should indicate whether the two officials who were quoted in the statement I have referred to were speaking with authority and were making a statement that reflected government policy, and whether the government has committed itself to an objective, as the minister put it, in the neighbourhood of 150,000 immigrants this year as compared with only 74,000 in 1950. If the minister is not prepared to say that the statement attributed to those two officials reflects government policy, then why did he use the word "objective" in his Winnipeg speech as indicated in the dispatch I have referred to? At that time, I repeat, he said:
Our objective for this year, assuming that conditions remain the same, is in the neighbourhood of 150,000.


Walter Edward Harris: The quotation
from the officials that has been read is new to me, but since the figure is approximately that which I gave in Winnipeg I do not think that any explanation is needed. As my hon. friend has quoted, in Winnipeg I said that under present conditions we thought that perhaps 150,000 people would come to Canada. I went on to say, what my hon. friend did not quote, that we thought those people could be absorbed into the national economy.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I still come back to the
purpose of this discussion and that is to find out whether there is a government plan with reference to this objective. The minister has just said that he thinks that 150,000 people will come this year, but that is not what the minister said in Winnipeg. In Winnipeg he said:
Our objective for this year, assuming that conditions remain the same, is in the neighbourhood of 150,000.
To an intelligent Canadian the use of the word "objective" would imply that the government has set a goal for itself. That is quite different from saying in a casual way, "Well, we think 150,000 people will come this year as compared with 74,000 last year."


Mr. Blue:: What was your objective when
you were married?


Donald Methuen Fleming: Those who are not prepared to take the discussion of an important problem seriously should find means of amusing themselves elsewhere. I want to say to the minister, and I say this in a friendly spirit, that what he has said now is not what he said at Winnipeg. What he has said now does not indicate an objective set by government policy. What he had said is very different from indicating an objective which would be a matter of deliberate, conscious government policy.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Do I understand correctly that the T.C.A. is used to bring immigrants whose fares are partly paid by the government only when T.C.A. planes would be coming back without paying passengers?


Walter Edward Harris: In these particular seasons.


Heber Harold Hatfield: What becomes of these particular immigrants after they land in Canada? Has the department anyone there to guide them to their destination? I ask the question because I was coming up on the train the other day from Saint John, New Brunswick, and there were a dozen immigrants on it. They were on a C.P.R. train and they all had C.N.R. tickets. The conductor was going to put them off. I told him he had better take the tickets. They were going through to Grand Falls. I should like to know who was at the port to guide these immigrants when they came here.


Walter Edward Harris: I am glad the hon. member drew my attention to this. I am sure that everybody in the maritimes has been at a port at one time or another when a ship came in with immigrants. If they have they will realize that we have a large staff of persons there to look after them, to see that they get on the right trains and arrive at their destinations.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Why were they given Canadian National tickets on a C.P.R. train?


Walter Edward Harris: I must say I cannot understand that but I will make inquiries.


Jean-François Pouliot: Was it not a pool train?


Mr. Ferguson:: Mr. Chairman, the immigration department during the war and since has certainly been neglected by the government either intentionally or because of the fact that they believe that Canada does not need any immigrants. My hon. friend who is now in charge as minister of the department has proven his outstanding ability in other matters in this house. If he is given the department to run without unnecessary and continuous restraint and restriction I believe he is far-sighted enough to realize what Canada needs in the way of immigrants. If he is restricted it will certainly not be through lack of ability and knowledge on his part because in his heart he knows what Canada needs so far as immigrants are concerned. He knows that this land has not been given to the present generation of Canadians. He knows that our forefathers came here to expand a profitable and rich gift from God.
So far as the government is concerned, in the last fifteen years absolutely no desire or ability to expand this great country and develop its natural resources has been displayed by any of the minister's predecessors. Whether or not that is the wish of the cabinet nobody knows. I want to say that it is up to the minister not only to make speeches in Winnipeg and have representatives of his department make statements to the press prior to departing for Europe. He must realize, and I know he does, the serious attitude of the citizens of Canada with respect to what is going to happen so far as immigration is concerned. Are we going to be told there are not sufficient boats to bring these people here? Are we going to have curtailment of expansion of our industries owing to lack of labour?
We know that we are preaching unity in the world. We know that our representatives in the United Nations are preaching brotherly love but it was only recently that we considered this country no longer at war with Germany. Some of the finest settlers in this country were men and women who came from Germany, people of whom we are proud, and we are exceedingly proud of their children and grandchildren. We have men from Yugoslavia and their descendants, men from Iceland. Citizens of Canada have every right to point to them with pride and call them citizens of Canada because they have earned that title. Yet we are continuing a
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration policy of a paltry 75,000 immigrants a year. Knowing the minister as we do we know that is not his plan, and we know that is not his wish. We know it is somebody else's wish, somebody else's planning in the typical manner in which this government has been planning immigration for at least the last twenty years.
Some of us fought against the Germans. We took pot shots at them and they took pot shots at us. Sometimes they hit and sometimes we hit but when they were taken prisoners there was not the slightest animosity towards them for having been good soldiers. Why should we bear them ill will for being Hitler-trained in the last war? We could almost do the same thing with our youth under certain conditions and with the same kind of training that produced the SS troops. We point to them as people who should almost never be associated with again. That is poppycock and nonsense. Give these people what we have got to give. Set an example for these people from all these European countries and bar none excepting those from Russia.
Bring them here and spend one-tenth of what we spend to educate every man and woman in this country, which is approximately $5,000. Give them a break, and it is a cheap investment at $500 per educated person over the age of twenty, able bodied, medically examined, whom we bring to the Dominion of Canada. Let them help us develop the country. On the day the house closed last June I was travelling to my home town of Collingwood on the train from Toronto to Allandale.


Donald Buchanan Blue: Looking for help.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: You would not have been much good if I had asked you to do the job. You would have done more talking than work. Let us get on with the talking now and I will proceed. There was a Roumanian doctor on the train with his wife who was a Viennese. They had tabs on them indicating that they were D.P.'s. With them were a man and his wife from Yugoslavia marked "domestic". There was another man and his wife marked "domestic" from Poland. With my poor French and the doctor's good French I was able to carry on a conversation with him. He in turn carried on a conversation with the people from Yugoslavia and Poland. That was the latter part of June when this house closed. Two months later I received a letter from the doctor written in almost perfect English saying that this was a land of opportunity and a great country. He is now working as a doctor in the Gravenhurst sanatorium and his wife is helping around the institution. A month
1426	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration later, I received word from the man from Yugoslavia who is working in am hotel in a northern town with his wife. Two months later the Pole wrote and thanked me for the information I had given to new citizens. I had told them that if they played the game they were just as good as any other Canadian citizen from the day they landed here. We Canadians came from the same kind of stock, the stock that is in a man from any country who is willing to work be he from the British isles, Yugoslavia, Poland, Germany or any other European country. He comes, he brings the right kind of stock and if he is a willing worker he is willing to become a loyal citizen of Canada. We cannot monopolize this country. The world has its eyes on Canada, a country of fourteen million people.


Donald Buchanan Blue: Hear, hear.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: I suggest to my hon. friend who keeps interrupting that the new immigrants will forgive him. They will understand him the same as I do. He will not make any more impression on them than he makes in the House of Commons. He will not prevent them from becoming good citizens.


Donald Buchanan Blue: I want to prolong your speech.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Maybe it would not hurt, but it is time some of us said something that this government will understand, and make an appeal for broadening immigration. It is time that a man with the ability of the present minister was permitted to do something to tell the world that Canada, not only by words but by deeds, intends to show itself in its true colours and to open its doors to the right kind of immigrants without any nonsensical strings on them. Hundreds of thousands of people in devastated, grief-stricken Europe would be very happy to travel in boats with the same equipment we used to transport our brave soldiers during both wars. There are women in those countries who would make wonderful Canadian citizens and be the mothers of the children of the future, also willing to travel in that type of accommodation. But our ships are now gathering barnacles in our harbours, with the crews laid off. We have the transportation-


An hon. Member:: And the water.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Please make your own speech later. We are not getting along very quickly, with your foolish interjections. Please behave yourself. I would1 hate to have you called to order, but it will have to be done soon because your interjections are simply nonsense. You make your speech; I will make mine.


We are asking these people to pay $500, $600 or $700; people who have gone through a dreadful ordeal, who will be under the handicap of not being able to speak our language, and that money must be in American or Canadian dollars. That is a fortune to them. It seems to me that a little sincere effort on the part of the minister and his department should make it possible for these people to be brought here with about $350 left of their $500, to keep the wolf from the door and worry from their minds for a few months after their arrival. In other words they should be able to get here by paying $150 instead of $500. We have been trying to tell the Chinese we are pretty good people. We have been telling them we do not bear any animosity, and that they should not believe Mr. Stalin when he puts his arm around them. The truth is that the Chinese has proven himself a good citizen. But he wants to bring his wife from Hong Kong, and there is no effort on the part of the government to help him. He has to pay $1,000 to bring the wife that he loves as dearly as we love our wives.


An hon. Member:: Hear, hear.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Well, the hon. member probably would not love anyone, but after all the Chinese is a human being. We tell him we are the broadminded, western people; but we also tell him it will cost him $1,000 to be reunited with his wife. He may have been a Canadian citizen for years; he may have contributed in his own way as much as most Canadians and far more than many who have been here for generations and who are too proud to work. You know whom I mean as well as I do. Let us be realistic about this immigration situation. Many members of the cabinet are right-thinking; many of the men in the Liberal ranks are businessmen, but even today there is no semblance of business practice in the department. I should like to believe the minister has a plan almost complete. Dear knows he had to start from scratch to get that department in any kind of workable condition. But if he has a plan that would appeal to Canadians let him announce it in this house; let him tell the country all about it. Do not bring these immigrants and displaced persons here piecemeal. The minister knows as well as I do that any businessman, given authority to go to Europe with good screening teams, could bring back numbers of carpenters, bricklayers, farmers and all the rest of it. We could load our boats with bricklayers, carpenters, masons, plasterers, barbers, cooks and all the others we need. There should be nothing difficult about that. But there is no sign of a concrete

immigration plan even today with the possibility of an all-out war facing us. How are we going to man our munition factories, when our Canadian boys will have to go into the ranks?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. I have given the hon. member every possible chance, I think, to discuss this item, which relates to payments to Trans-Canada Air Lines to make up the difference in cost between air transportation and minimum tourist class ocean transportation for immigrants, and I would ask him to direct his remarks to the item under consideration.


Julian Harcourt Ferguson: Very well, Mr. Chairman; I have never tried to be objectionable at any time. In conclusion let me simply say that I pray the minister to enlighten this country on one of the most vital subjects confronting Canada today, affecting as it does our hopes for the future.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
648. To authorize and provide for a special account in the consolidated revenue fund from which interest-free loans may be made to heads of families or single persons, whose services are urgently required in Canada, towards the cost of ocean transportation to Canada and rail transportation in Canada from port of entry to destination-including cost of meals en route-under conditions fixed from time to time by the governor in council; and to authorize the crediting to such special account of repayments by immigrants and the readvancing of such repayments, $3,000,000.
Walter Edward Harris: In view of the
previous discussion I am sure there will be a few questions and I should make an explanation. This is the item everyone seems to want to talk about, but they wanted to do it under the previous item. We announced a policy for the purpose of bringing to Canada single persons or the heads of families whose skills are urgently needed in Canada at the present time. That plan calls for the loan to that person of his passage money, except for the sum of $30 which he is expected to put up himself in the currency of his own country. The loan of the passage money will be repayable by arrangement with the immigrant and his employer by deduction from his wages monthly over a period of twelve months in some cases but in no case to exceed twenty-four months. We expect we will require the $3 million to be voted here so that by the time the money starts coming in again by way of repayment we will have expended approximately this amount.
The reason for this is that the cost of transportation has been one of the factors which have delayed immigration to Canada, as the hon. member for Simcoe North just said. At
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the same time we have done what we could to provide transportation for these people, and if the committee will permit me I should like to give an explanation of the transportation facilities. More than 30 vessels will make scheduled stops at Canadian ports during 1951. Five of these vessels did not visit Canadian ports last year. They are the La Guardia, the Homeland, the Europa, the Stockholm, and the Stavengerfjord. Several others have increased the number of scheduled stops. For example, the Scythia will make six more visits to Canada than she did during 1950. The Neptunia and the Italia will each make five additional visits to Canada. The Washington will make four more visits than she did last year.


Mr. Riley:: On item 648, Mr. Chairman, I
should like to say a few words in tribute to the minister and his department for the new immigration facilities which were recently opened at the port of Saint John. When the member for Simcoe North was describing the lack of evidence of an immigration plan a few moments ago, I could not help but feel that he should have accepted my invitation to come to the port of Saint John a few weeks ago. He would then have seen some really concrete evidence of an immigration plan, because this building was opened a few short months ago.
We were given a picture of a bright future for this immigration policy which would be carried on by the department under the leadership of the present minister. This building is most modern, and probably the best equipped immigration station in North America. The building was commenced in 1948 and opened last December. It is located on the dockside and is more than 130 feet by 330 feet. It is bright and airy, and has excellent hospital facilities. It has the latest in restaurant and cafeteria equipment, and the detention quarters are of a superior nature.
The member for Fraser Valley is making a few suggestions, but I would suggest that he hold back for private members' night, because I am sure that before this session is completed he will have every opportunity to exhaust himself on the pipe line bills. I should like to pay particular tribute to the immigration work that is being carried on in the port of Saint John by the splendid volunteer organizations who are meeting the new immigrants and adding that touch of welcome which cannot be given by the regular efficient employees of the department. I should like to mention the Salvation Army, the lay members of the Baptist church, the Presbyterian church, the British and Foreign Missionary society, the Canadian Red Cross,
1428	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the Catholic Women's League, and the Sisters of Service. The Canadian Red Cross is operating an excellent nursery which is staffed and equipped through voluntary effort and subscription. I am sure that the excellent work carried on by these voluntary organizations in welcoming these new immigrants to our country could be helped by other organizations throughout the country who may wish to lend a hand.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Mr. Chairman, when we were asking questions on the previous item, I understood that the minister rather preferred to have us wait for item 648. I thought that when we came to this item our questions would be answered. So far as I am concerned they have not been answered at all. I can add one or two more to give the minister a start.
We have heard a description of the fine set-up at Saint John, but I should like to know something more about it. How many are employed there? How many people came through that port of entry? Is it going to be operated during the summer? How is this $3 million to be used? How much is to be for each family or each unit? Is there any estimate as to how often the fund will revolve? How many can be brought out under this plan during the year, and what is the relationship of this figure, which I understand is still an accepted figure, more or less a basic figure, of 150,000? We are still in the dark about that.


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, to answer the first question first, the personnel at the port of Saint John in the immigration building totals about 15 to 18. For the period when a ship comes in, there are a good many more on a temporary basis.
The second question, as I understood it, was how much money is to be loaned? A person who benefits from this scheme provides $30 in the currency of his own country, and the Canadian government will lend him the difference between $30 and the cost of his transportation to Canada, including his transportation to any point in Canada, which works out to about $40 on the average.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister must have in his mind an average amount of money to each person on that basis?


Walter Edward Harris: It works out to just about $200.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: In the case of a family?


Walter Edward Harris: This applies only to single workers or to the head of a family.

In other words, it is working hands that are required here, and the members of the family do not receive the benefit of this loan.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I was very much interested in what the member for Saint John-Albert said.
I had the pleasure, of course, of seeing this splendid shed, and I have known something about it. I agree when he says it is one of the finest immigration sheds in Canada, and perhaps in North America. There is one thing the people are very much concerned about, especially those who are employed in the shed, and that is whether these splendid facilities would be used for only a few months during the winter, or whether ships would be brought into Saint John to use those facilities which cannot be excelled anywhere else in Canada the year round. Really, I believe it is a great loss of money if those sheds are not used during the summer, just as they are during the winter. I should like the minister to say whether there is any intention of using these splendid facilities at the port of Saint John during the summer months.


Walter Edward Harris: I believe it is the desire of the department to use all its facilities to the maximum efficiency.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: One of my
questions has not been answered. It was, how many came through the port of Saint John? I might ask the minister if my arithmetic is correct. He says there would be about $200 each, so the maximum would be about 15,000 people that might be accommodated under this particular item?


Walter Edward Harris: The first question was the number who came in. In December, there were 1,533; in January 280; and in February, 1,625. The 15,000, the expected number who will benefit by this plan, will probably come in, in the course of the next three, four or five months. We have only an estimate to go on. Over 30,000 persons applied in the offices in the United Kingdom and western Europe in the months of January and February for immigrant status. We are processing these now, and I should imagine that a very large number of these will come forward under the assisted passage scheme.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the
minister say how this compares with figures of a year ago?


Walter Edward Harris: We had no
assisted passage scheme a year ago.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No, but
would you not have figures of the applicants of a year ago?


Walter Edward Harris: Only 13,000 came forward from the United Kingdom in the whole of last year, so that my hon. friend can see that in the two months of January and February we received twice as many applications as came forward during the whole of the year.


Jean-François Pouliot: Just before my hon. friend
goes on, these are further supplementary estimates, 1950-51, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1951. What has been said about item 577 was about an amount that has to be spent from now until March 31; but item 648 is entirely different, and I wonder why it was not put in the main estimates which were tabled not long ago, because this amount of $3 million is apparently not for the supplementary estimates of 1950-51, but for the main estimate of 1951-52, and it is for future payments, not four or five months only. I ask the minister why it was not in the main estimates of 1951-52?


Walter Edward Harris: The plan was
announced effective February 1, so that to the extent of two months it would have been included in these supplementaries in any event, but in order that it should be made clear that it was a continuing plan on a revolving fund basis, we put it in for the full amount that we expected to use while the plan was in operation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall we revert
now to item 578?
Indian Affairs branch-Reserves and trusts-
578.	Administration-further amount required, $22,082.


Mr. MacKenzie:: Under this item I want to clarify something that has appeared in the press just recently. This item has to do with reserves and trusts. In the riding that I have the honour to represent, Lambton-Kent, there is probably the largest Indian reserve in Canada. It contains something over 40,000 acres. There are close to 1,000 Indians in my riding. Adjacent to the reserve is a shooting and hunting marsh that the Indians have had the rights to for many years. This has been under lease and was called the St. Anne's lease. It was leased by a Toronto firm mainly for several years, but the department decided that it should be advertised and leased to someone else. They called for public tenders.
My experience with the Indian branch has been that the officials of the Indian affairs branch are very zealous of the Indians' rights. Any time that I have talked to them they have claimed that their first consideration is the Indian. I was rather bothered and
19. 1951	1429
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration disturbed over an item that appeared in the papers a few days ago. As a matter of fact, it appeared in the Journal last Thursday night. It was in the Globe and Mail, and I clipped this little item from the Windsor Star last Thursday. I will read it:
Hunters ask lease probe.
A parliamentary investigation of the federal government's action in leasing St. Anne's island in lake St. Clair, near Wallaceburg, to a private sportsmen's club was asked today by the Ontario federation of anglers and hunters in a brief to the legislature's fish and game committee.
K. S. Clarke, federation president, said that the lease had been "slipped over" by the federal department of Indian Affairs to a "highly objectionable" private club, whose members are mostly from the United States. "The amount of game that is taken from the island is something that the police might well look into," he said. The province had offered to pay the same amount, but the lease had been granted to the private club "for purely political reasons."
As the representative of that riding I want to know why it was granted for political reasons, because if it was I have no knowledge of it in the least.


Walter Edward Harris: I probably would not have commented except for the conclusion of the quotation. The St. Anne's lease is a well known lease in southwestern Ontario, and as my hon. friend says, the only interest that this department has in it is to obtain the maximum return from these grounds for the Indian band who surrendered part of the island in the first place. It has been under lease for something over sixty years, I think. Last year, as a result of a lawsuit, this lease came to an end and we had to re-lease that portion of the island because that was the basis on which the Indian band council had surrendered it. We advertised the hunting privileges in the Toronto Star, the Toronto Globe and Mail, the Windsor Star, the Chatham News, the London Free Press, the Sarnia Canadian Observer and the Detroit Free Press during July and August of last year. We asked for tenders, and they were opened on August 30, 1950. At that time there were three bids in the tenders, and we accepted the highest tender. That happened to be a number of persons, some Canadians and some Americans. A suggestion has been made that we ignored certain representations which had been made by a sportsmen's association in southwestern Ontario, but we did not receive any firm undertaking or bid from either the Ontario federation of anglers and hunters, the Kent county sportsmen's association or any similar organization in the province of Ontario.
I may repeat, our only interest is on behalf of the Indians who in fact are the beneficiaries of the lease.

Supply
In regard to remarks in the paper that the amount of game taken from the island is something that the police might look into, it is to be observed that in the lease there is a section stating that the lessee will at all times co-operate as closely as possible with the dominion wildlife authorities and the game and fisheries branch of the province of Ontario in all matters pertaining to wildlife conservation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch; education-
579.	Grants to residential schools, further amount required, $60,668.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item carry?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Eleven o'clock.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Carry that one.


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, this in the final item of the Indian affairs branch in the supplementaries. Would it not be possible to carry it?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


An hon. Member:: By leave of the house.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Is it the pleasure of the committee that this item be carried?


An hon. Member:: Unanimous consent.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Carried?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Carried.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Item 579 does not carry. Shall I report progress?


Douglas Charles Abbott: Who opposed it?


Mr. Sinnoll:: He is just kidding.
Item stands.
Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported, read the second time and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

['We were trying today to place before the committee the less contentious ones. However, perhaps I misjudged the situation. Tomorrow I will do my best to have the less contentious estimates come up first. Then we will take the difficult ones -if there are some.']
Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we will continue with these further supplementary estimates. Then we will take up Bill No. 79, an act respecting Indians. If the second reading of this bill is given, the bill will be sent to the special committee on Indian affairs. Then, we have some other small bills which could be taken up too tomorrow.
'Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce).]


Edmund Davie Fulton: Would the minister indicate the order in which the supplementary estimates will be dealt with?


Alphonse Fournier: We were trying today to place before the committee the less contentious ones. However, perhaps I misjudged the situation. Tomorrow I will do my best to have the less contentious estimates come up first. Then we will take the difficult ones -if there are some.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
B-General-
580.	The Canadian Government's Assessment for Membership in the Food and1 Agriculture Organization of the United Nations-further amount required, $109,000.
Terminable services-
581.	Contribution to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East-further amount required, $750,000.
582.	Contribution for the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation program for Korea, $7,250,000.
[Stage Direction]
Contingencies and miscellaneous-
583.	Cost of telephone service at Ottawa for all departments-further amount required, $100,000.
584.	To authorize the write-off from non-active assets to the consolidated deficit account of the net trading loss in the securities investment account incurred between April, 1940, and November, 1949 ($8,299,183.77), $1.
General items of payroll costs including superannuation payments-
585.	To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for supplementing other votes for the payment of salaries, wages and other paylist charges-further amount required, $2,000,000.
586.	To provide for the government's contribution as an employer to the unemployment insurance fund in respect of government employees paid through the central pay office-further amount required, $80,000.
587.	To provide for the transfer to the civil service superannuation account of a special government contribution of a portion of the amount by which the estimated liabilities exceed the balance in the account, $75,000,000.
Special-
588.	Notwithstanding section 32 of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, to authorize payment under votes 678 and 679 of the Appropriation Act No. 4, 1950, of the federal government's share of the claims received after March 31, 1951, in respect of costs incurred as a result of the large fires in Rimouski and Cabano in May, 1950, where such claims are certified for payment by the commission named for that purpose by the government of the province of Quebec, $1.

Insurance-
591.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $10,000.
592.	Expenses of work in the interest of fire prevention-further amount required, $3,000.
[Stage Direction]
A-Department-general administration-
593.	Labour Gazette and other publications authorized by Labour Department Act-further amount required, $48,000.
Annuities Act-
594.	Notwithstanding the Government Annuities Act, to authorize the Minister of Labour in consequence of the transfer of employees from the original employers to the new employers specified in the details of the estimates to enter into contracts with the original employers and the new employers, to provide that the new employers shall, effective on the dates respectively specified in the details become parties to group annuity contracts specified in the said details respectively in the place of the original employers with respect to employees to whom those contracts applied and who were transferred to the new employers and for the application of the contracts in respect of service with the original employers and the new employers and for such other terms as the minister deems necessary for the maintenance and continuity of pension rights of the employees under those contracts, and to provide for payments in the current and subsequent fiscal years in accordance with the contracts so entered into out of the government annuities account, $1.
Special-
595.	To authorize and provide for federal contributions to reimburse the province of Quebec for one-half the expenditure for the reconstruction of buildings of technical and marine schools, Rimouski,
Supply
Quebec, and one-half the cost of re-equipping the technical school and to authorize the Minister of Labour to enter into an agreement with the province of Quebec for such expenditures, $330,000.
B-Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-
596.	Government's contribution to the unemployment insurance fund-further amount required, $3,350,000.
597.	To reimburse the unemployment insurance fund under section 87F(1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940, as amended by statute of 1950, $1,780,000.
[Stage Direction]
Immigration branch-
577.	To provide for payments to Trans-Canada Airlines of the difference in cost between air transportation and minimum tourist class ocean transportation for immigrants transported from the United Kingdom by Trans-Canada Airlines during the period November 29, 1950, to March 31, 1951, $380,000.
Indian Affairs branch-Reserves and trusts-
578. Administration-further amount required, $22,082.
Loans, investments and advances-
Citizenship and immigration-
648. To authorize and provide for a special account in the consolidated revenue fund from which interest-free loans may be made to heads of families or single persons, whose services are urgently required in Canada, towards the cost of ocean transportation to Canada and rail transportation in Canada from port of entry to destination-including cost of meals en route-under conditions fixed from time to time by the governor in council; and to authorize the crediting to such special account of repayments by immigrants and the readvancing of such repayments, $3,000,000.
[Stage Direction]


Tuesday, March 20, 1951