1951-03-07

Mr. A. J. Brooks (Royal):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. On February 23 I was discussing certain industries in the province of New Brunswick. As reported at page 633 of Hansard I said:
The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra just spoke about brooms. We have one of the oldest and finest broom factories in Canada which has been operating for years.
The report continues:


Mr. Howe:: They do not make brooms; they
make brushes.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: They used to make brooms.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They do not now.
On the recent visit of the fifty members of parliament to Saint John, Mr. Speaker, we visited the T. S. Simms and1 Company factory.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Mr. Green:: Oh, let him finish.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I should like to point out that this is not a proper question of privilege. However, if the house would like to hear it, I have no objection.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: In that connection, Mr. Speaker, I might say that the adverse advertising given to this company was done here in the House of Commons. T. S. Simms and Company resented this advertising, because, as we had ample proof, they make brooms. While the fifty members were visiting this factory the other day, it was turning out brooms by the gross as well as brushes and other material.
I have been requested by the management of T. S. Simms and Company to have this correction made in the House of Commons. They also felt that they would be delighted' to present to the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) a broom which I have here, and which I shall send over to him. I might say that this broom was manufactured at the same time as the members were visiting the T. S. Simms and Company factory in Saint John a few days ago.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, I notice that Mr. Simms is in the gallery. I am sure he will be delighted with the advertising he has had in the House of Commons. I think that perhaps we can leave it at that.
Fourth and fifth reports of standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.-Mr. Winkler.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)


Mr. Fulton:: What was the total cost of recruiting advertisements and posters for all three services, including reserves and cadets, by months, during 1950?


Mr. Blanchette:: Total monthly recruiting advertising expenditures for the armed forces in 1950.
January 			 $ 87,520.74
February 			 86,822.48
March 			 117,874.06
April 			 180,246.52
May 			 42,162.45
June 			 5,209.34
July 			 10,203.74
August 			 17,320.20
September 			 169,940.32
October 			 85,711.84
November			 263,005.12
December 			 200,367.95
Total 			 $1,266,384.76



GOOSE AIRPORT


Mr. Higgins:: 1.	How many runways are there at Goose airport, Newfoundland?
2.	What is the length of each runway?
3.	Of what material are the runways constructed?
4.	Is it proposed to lengthen the runways?
5.	How many commercial planes use Goose airport per month, and what types are these planes?
6.	What is the amount of landing fees collected at this airport per month?


Mr. Blanchelle:: 1.	Three.
2.	(1) 5,845 ft. x 200 ft., (2) 8,114 ft. x 200 ft., plus 1000 ft. of steel mat at each end; (3) 9,570 ft. x 200 ft., plus 1000 ft. of steel mat at each end.
3.	Concrete.
4.	No.
5.	During 1950, an average of 68 commercial aircraft used Goose airport per month,

Questions
consisting of the following types: Anson, Constellation, DC-3, DC-4, Mallard, North Star, Stratocruiser.
6.	The average monthly collection from April 1, 1950, to January 31, 1951, was $9,583.



WHEAT BOARD


Mr. Wright:: 1.	What were the deliveries of (a) oats; (b) barley, to the wheat board by growers in each month during the 1949-50 crop year?
2.	What were the sales by the wheat board of (a) oats; (b) barley, during each month of the 194950 crop year?
3.	What amounts of (a) oats; (b) barley, were sold on the Winnipeg grain exchange by the wheat board during each month of the 1949-50 crop year?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1. Deliveries of oats and barley to the Canadian wheat board by growers in each month during the 1949-50 crop year were as follows:
Oats	Barley
(Bushels)
August, 1949 .	. 3,265,531-21	2,235,501-20September ...	. 19,893,287-17	18,868,508-06October 	. 18,727,414-10	13,672,419-04November ....	. 8,678,338-28	4,237,798-23December ....	. 5,003,173-20	1,672,268-20January, 1950 .	. 4,242,409-31	2,540,024-00February 	. 1,786,375-06	995,093-40March 	. 2,506,032-26	1,166,648-01April 	. 1,568,221-15	806,064-26May 	. 2,865,308-15	1,308,669-47June 	. 4,828,585-08	2,098,877-35July 	. 6,837,543-09	3,657,093-46Total 	. 80,202,222-02	53,258,967-282. Sales of oats and barley by the Canadian	wheat board in each month during the 1949-50	crop year were	as follows:	Oats	Barley(Bushels)	August, 1949 . .	. 6,843,319-11	6,386,088-21September ....	. 8,816,078-06	6,603,511-01October 	. 11,158,399-30	7,223,776-92November ....	. 11,653,206-30	4,126,609-40December ....	. 5,886,795-00	2,543,190-28January, 1950 .	. 3,693,156-27	2,120,570-09February 	. 5,020,729-10	3,366,076-05March 	. 5,855,812-10	4,833,681-47April 	. 4,057,431-30	3,296,571-25May 	. 3,534,331-31	3,075,099-04June 	. 3,039,441-09	2,883,801-19July 	. 8,817,105-16	6,070,062-36Total 	. 78,375,808-eg	52,529,039-24
Sales of oats and barley futures on the Winnipeg grain exchange by month during 1949-50 crop year were as follows:
	Oats	Barley
	(Bushels)	
August, 1949 	. . . 6,596,000	2,198,000September 	. . . 7,365,000	3,015,000October 	. . . 8,880,000	4,939,000November 	. . . 10,128,000	3,584,000December 	. . . 4,213,000	2,037,000January, 1950 . ..	. . . 2,661,000	1,551,000February 	. . . 3,891,000	2,783,000March 	. . . 4,726,000	4,291,000April	. . . 3,455,000	2,877,000May 	. . . 3,039,000	2,678,000June 	.. . 2,388,000	2,476,000July	. . . 8,443,000	5,379,000Total 	. . . 65,785,000	37,808,000



CENSUS COMMISSIONERS, MANITOBA

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Who are the census commissioners for Manitoba for the census to be taken this year?
2.	Did the Minister of Trade and Commerce receive recommendations as to these appointments (a) from members of parliament; (b) from others? If so, from what persons were such recommendations received, with specific reference to each census commissioner appointed for Manitoba?
3.	Was consideration given to any other factors apart from recommendations made?
4.	Was the opportunity to apply for these positions made known to the general public? If so, in what way, and on what date or dates?
5.	What course will be followed in the securing of census enumerators for each constituency in Manitoba?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1. Census commissioners for Manitoba:
Brandon, D. W. Clement, Clement Block, Brandon, Man.
Churchill, M. H. Solstad, The Pas, Man.
Dauphin, E. A. Marcroft, Dauphin P.O., Man.
Lisgar, William T. Pringle, Manitou, Man.
Marquette, W. T. Wherrett, Shoal Lake, Man.
Norquay, B. J. Lifman, Arborg P.O., Man.
Portage-Neepawa, Wm. M. Stewart, Portage la Prairie, Man.
Provencher, Albani Gallant, Letellier, Man.
St. Boniface, Gladstone Pickup Shearer, 71 Tache Ave., St. Boniface, Man.
Selkirk, Horace F. H. Thomas, 1867 Portage Ave., St. James, Man.
Souris, (Mrs.) J. M. McDonald, Boissevain, Man.
Springfield, William Horodoski, Beausejour, Man.
(Mr. Blanchette.)

Winnipeg North, Peter Taraska, 322 Mc-Adam Ave., Winnipeg, Man.
Winnipeg North Centre, Joseph R. Doiron, 868 Alverstone St., Winnipeg, Man.
Winnipeg South, Roger Teillet, 204 Bank of Commerce Bldg., Norwood, Man.
Winnipeg South Centre, H. R. Veales, 478 Sprague St., Winnipeg, Man.
2.	The appointments of the temporary census commissioners, field supervisors, and enumerators, required for the census, are exempted from the provisions of the Civil Service Act (P.C. 170/5322 of November 4, 1950) and the selection of these employees is left to the Department of Trade and Commerce. In making these appointments the minister did receive recommendations from various people, including members of parliament.
3.	Yes. The objective was to secure the most competent man for the job. The appointment of each commissioner was made on the basis of his qualifications, which were: a good education, with subsequent professional or business experience in a supervisory capacity; intimate knowledge of the constituency or district; proven executive and organizing ability; tact, good judgment and ability to deal with the public.
4.	The decennial census has been taken at the same time every ten years and the public should be well aware of it.
Considerable publicity has been given to the forthcoming census, its aims, organization, the numbers of commissioners and enumerators required, et cetera, by means of official releases and write-ups in the Canadian press.
5.	It is the duty of the commissioner to provide suitable candidates for enumerators for the various subdistricts in his area.
The procedure to be followed in the final selection of enumerators is as follows: -
(a)	The commissioner will supply the field supervisor with a list of candidates.
(b)	The field supervisor will notify each candidate to report on a day between May 12 and 14, inclusive, at his own expense, stating the time and place.
(c)	On the appointed day the candidates will be given a written test.
(d)	The field supervisor will forward the marks obtained by each candidate to the commissioner for transmittal to the regional census office of the dominion bureau of statistics. Test papers must be kept for the duration of the census.
(e)	After passing the initial test each enumerator will be given an intensive training and will be further tested as to his competence for the work of enumeration.
Questions



INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT BANK


Mr. Higgins:: Has the government given any consideration to amending the Industrial Development Bank Act so as to enable the bank to make loans for fisheries development?


Mr. Sinclair:: The Industrial Development Bank Act permits the making of loans for the processing of fish. Any amendment to this act to broaden its scope is a matter of government policy and it is not the practice to forecast government policy in answering questions.



IMPORTS OF BUTTER FROM NEW ZEALAND

Mr. Charlton:: 1.	What quantities of butter were imported from New Zealand into Canada since January 1, 1951?
2.	Who were the importers, and what amount was imported by each of them?
3.	What was the Canadian seaboard price in the case of each shipment imported?
4.	At what price was each such shipment sold to wholesalers in Canada?


Mr. Mcllraith:: 1. From January 1 to January 31, 1951, no butter was imported from New Zealand. Figures for the month of February are not yet available. It is understood, however, that a shipment of approximately 1,500 long tons was received during that month. This butter was for private importers, and therefore parts 2, 3, and 4 cannot be answered.



INVESTMENT IN PLANT AND EQUIPMENT


Mr. Winkler:: 1.	In Canada, in (a) current dollars; (b) constant dollars, what was the investment in (i) plant and equipment; (ii) gross national product, for the years 1939 and 1950?
2.	What was the percentage of (i) to (ii) in each case?
3.	What was the percentage increase in plant and equipment in each case in 1950 over 1939?
4.	What was the percentage increase in gross national product in 1950 over 1939?
5.	Are there comparable figures in industrial production in 1950 over 1939 for the other countries of the North Atlantic pact?


Mr. Mcllraith:: 

DUMPING DUTIES

Mr. Wright:: 1.	On what imports from Great Britain or other commonwealth countries have dumping duties been applied from January 1, 1947, to date?
2.	For what periods of time were such dumping duties applied?/
3.	What was the rate of such dumping duties and the amount collected in each case?
4.	What, if any, was the regular tariff on each classification of goods on which dumping duties were charged?
5.	What was the amount of imports into Canada for each classification of goods on which dumping duties were charged (a) for the six months period prior to the application of such dumping duties; (b) for the six months period subsequent to the application of such dumping duties?
6.	On what imports from Great Britain or other commonwealth countries has the government announced that they intend to apply dumping duties

at some future date, and (a) what is the rate of such duties; (b) what is the regular tariff on these goods?


Mr. McCann:: 

POSTAL SERVICE


Mr. Noseworthy:: 1.	What was the total cost to the Post Office Department for the use of air mail service by Trans-Canada and all other air lines employed?
2.	Will the curtailment of delivery service involve any change in air mail service? If so, what changes?
3.	How many postal routes in the Toronto postal district formerly receiving two deliveries of mail per day will in future be reduced to one delivery?
4.	How many of these are composed in whole or in part of business areas?
5.	How many letter carriers will be relieved of postal routes?
6.	How many of these will be employed by the post office in other positions?


Mr. Rinfret:: 1.	Fiscal year 1949-50. Trans-Canada Air Lines (including transatlantic and Caribbean service) $6,578,403.01; all other air lines, $1,719,799.30; total cost, $8,298,202.31.
2.	No major changes in air mail schedules are anticipated solely as a result of a revision of letter carrier service.
3.	547 residential routes.
4.	All routes mentioned in No. 3 contain less that 25 per cent business calls. Very few of them contain no business firms.
5.	182.
6.	No estimate can be given now, as this will depend on the number of vacancies occurring prior to the 31**. March.



NATIONAL CAPITAL PLAN

Mr. Hodgson:: 1.	What has been the total cost to date in connection with the general plan for improvement of the national capital?
2.	What amount has been paid to Mr. Jacques Greber in this connection?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	$453,538.87 (amount expended by the Department of Public Works).
2.	$51,114.38.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: 1.	How many employees of the Department of Agriculture are working in Newfoundland?
2.	What are the positions and respective salaries of those appointed since April 1, 1950?
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND AGENCIES-* ADVERTISING AND PUBLICITY CONTRACTS


Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	In the fiscal year 1949-50, what firms have supplied or contracted to supply advertising and publicity for each of the government departments and agencies?
2.	What amounts were paid for these services to each of these firms in the fiscal year 1949-50?



WEBBER BUILDING, KINGSTON

Mr. Aylesworth:: 1.	Does the government rent the Webber building in Kingston?
2.	If so, from whom, and at what annual rental?
3.	What department of the government is using the building?
4.	Do they use all of the available floor space? If not, what percentage do they use?
5.	Were any repairs or alterations made to the interior of the building?
6.	If so, who paid for these repairs or alterations?
7.	If the government paid, who were the contractors?
8.	What was the cost of these repairs or alterations?
9.	Is there a staff employed to maintain this building?
10.	If so, how many are on the staff, and what are their positions and salaries?
11.	Has the government taken steps to purchase this building?
12.	If so, what is the proffered purchase price?
13.	Has it been accepted?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Carroll:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, memoranda, or other documents exchanged during the past year between the Minister of Trade and Commerce or any other minister, department or official, and the premier of Nova Scotia, and the Nova Scotia Minister of Trade and Industry, dealing with the question of steel expansion.

Social Security



POST OFFICE


[Stage Direction]
"cost of maintenance"
Mr. Noseworihy:: For a copy of the most recent report "Cost of Maintenance" made by the Post Office Department to the district directors.


Mr. Rinfrel:: I am sorry, but I must oppose the production of this document. The report that is mentioned here as being "Cost of Maintenance" is in reality a report of costs of ascertainment. This is a privileged document, prepared for the exclusive use of the employees cf the department, and must be considered not as a public document but as a private one for the use of departmental officials.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Edmund Davie Fulton: For a copy of the report and findings of the board of transport commissioners following their inquiry into the collision which occurred on the main line of the Canadian National Railways at Canoe River, British Columbia, on November 21, 1950.



SOCIAL SECURITY


Mr. Lionel Bertrand (Terrebonne) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should during the present session take into consideration the advisability of including in their social security program a system of allowances to every person without any sufficient income or means of support, who, by reason of an injury, accident, congenital infirmity or incurable disease, is at a disadvantage in seeking or obtaining employment, or incapable of providing for his subsistence, and whose age prevents him from benefiting by the social security legislation now in force.
He said: I presented this motion the first time in 1946. It was discussed in 1946; it was again discussed in 1947, and there were questions about it in 1949. The motion has appeared on the order paper for six sessions, session after session, but there has never been an opportunity to discuss it thoroughly or to take a vote to ascertain the feeling of the house on it. I would surely like to know what the opinion of the house is on the matter, and my speech will last only two or three minutes.
The motion itself explains fairly well what the whole question is. Family allowances stop at the age of sixteen; old age pensions start at seventy. The fifty-four years difference between the ages of sixteen and seventy represent more than the average human life. A certain section of the people, especially those between the ages of sixteen and seventy, are left unprovided for. Victims of infantile
(Mr. Carroll.]
paralysis, victims of all kinds of accidents who do not fall under the benefits of any provincial accident insurance act, persons suffering from congenital deformity, and other people who cannot be cured, are not provided for:	If they or their families are wealthy,
these invalids can obtain all the necessary treatments. If they have no money, or if they are poor, they fall under public charity. No municipal bylaws provide any help for them. I have found no provincial law that gives them any grant. I could discover no federal statute which could give them assistance of any kind. No one will employ an invalid; they are not accepted on the labour market.
Crippled and invalid persons deserve their share under the sun. They have a right to happiness, to the same extent as any one of us. Therefore would it not be proper for the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) to study the problem, to make a statement respecting these indigent persons, and then to recommend a suitable system of allowances which would be paid by the federal government, or a system of subsidies by both federal and provincial authorities? The social security program cannot be considered complete if invalids and crippled persons, without sufficient income or means of support, are left to their unfortunate fate.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure all members, regardless of party affiliations, are glad indeed to see a resolution of this kind come before the house. I know of nothing which would be of greater benefit to large numbers of people in Canada than the putting into effect of the proposals and suggestions it contains.
Those of us who have been here for a number of years have been glad to welcome an extension of benefits to the blind. In my opinion we should now be considering the extension of such benefits to those who are physically incapacitated from any cause whatsoever. In many homes, particularly where incomes are small, it is a tragedy when any member of the family is permanently laid aside through physical incapacity; it is. of course much more serious when the breadwinner or the mother of the family is so handicapped.
But whether it be the mother, or a child, or any other member of a family, it is a severe handicap not only to the family but also to the individual suffering the disability. I believe the people of Canada are willing- I was going to use the word "anxious"; indeed, I shall use it-to see Canada do something for the type of person who is permanently incapacitated.

The facts are so evident to everyone that I am sure there will not be any difficulty whatever in obtaining support of all hon. members in the house. If from time to time, under conditions of great necessity, we can find hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars, for the defence of our country, surely we can find lesser sums for the defence of our homes, the comfort of our people and the relief of those who suffer the disabilities visualized in the resolution.
Without prolonging the debate-because I suspect a number of members will want to speak in support of the resolution-I would say on behalf of my colleagues and myself that we welcome the introduction of this motion and will give it all the support of which we are capable.


Mr. Charles Cannon (Iles-de-la-Madeleine):: Mr. Speaker, already on two or three occasions I have expressed my views in connection with this matter. Therefore 1 shall not speak at length, but will say at once that, like hon. members who have preceded me, I support the resolution before the house.
1 know this is a problem that confronts all hon. members from every county. In all parts of Canada we find invalids who are not able to provide for themselves. We all receive letters requesting that we intercede in their behalf, and obtain some relief for them. Unfortunately we are obliged to reply that at present there is no federal legislation permitting such help.
In the Magdalen islands we have our quota of invalids-perhaps even more than are found in some other constituencies, because the great majority of my electors are fishermen whose work of wresting their livelihood from the sea is most difficult. Men age quickly, with the result that many of them are unable to earn their living long before they reach the age of seventy, at which time they would be eligible for old age pensions, or even sixty-five, at which age the old age pensions will begin if the recommendations of the committee that examined the matter at the last session are implemented.
On other occasions I have made the comparison which was made this afternoon by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), who referred to the blind. Exactly the same principle applies to injured or crippled people as applies to the blind. The blind are unable to earn their own living, and invalids who are also unable to earn their living should be treated in the same way.
I would ask hon. members to give sympathetic consideration to the resolution, and to vote in favour of it.
Social Security


Mr. Solon E. Low (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to take only two or three minutes to express on behalf of the group I represent our pleasure that this resolution is now brought before the house. We believe it should be given the most sympathetic consideration of all hon. members and that it should be passed as an expression of the attitude of the house toward giving help to those who are physically incapacitated.
I do not believe this question and its ramifications was ever brought to our attention with greater force than when the Association of Incurables sent their representatives here not so long ago. I believe they waited upon the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin). I know they visited me and other members of this group, and presented their case. Surely those people are to be pitied, and I believe every member in the house must feel like trying to do something for them.
I know that in practically every session since I became a member this group has had something to say by way of requesting that the incurables and physically incapacitated be placed in a position similar to that of old age pensioners. There are thousands of homes across this country in which there are persons who are not employable, persons who by reason of physical disabilities have not been able to earn their own living. Parents, brothers and sisters have not been able to look after them properly.
When the representatives of the Association of Incurables came to Ottawa they told me that there were many of their members who could work and who were constantly seeking employment. But even when they were taken on to do jobs they were capable of doing, the public would not accept them in positions where members of the public were passing to and fro. For example, I was told of one worthy individual who had obtained a job as elevator operator in a large building. He was doing well at his job, until someone complained to the manager about having an incurable person operating the elevator. It is a tragedy when the public will not permit such a man to work and earn his living. I think we ought to do something about it.
When this question was up before I asked the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) if he would have his department conduct a survey to find out how many incurables there are in Canada.


Mr. Martin:: That survey is under way
now.


Solon Earl Low: That is fine. When we know
that, we shall be able to determine the magnitude of the problem. I suggest that

Social Security
*hat survey as to how many incurable or physically incapacitated people there are in Canada be completed as soon as possible, and that a report be made by the minister so that we may be able to discuss the matter when his estimates are before us. We would then know what it would cost, and we would be able to see if an appropriation could be made so that what is envisaged in this resolution could be put into effect.
I support the resolution.


Mr. J. H. Ferguson (Simcoe North):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words in support of this resolution. I am sure that every hon. member of the House of Commons, if he stops to think, can recall many blind people in his constituency who are receiving a pension. He can recall many people over seventy years of age who are now receiving pensions. He will know that those receiving old age pensions are in many cases able to do a good deal for themselves. He must realize that those of his fellow citizens who are incapacitated through blindness and who are receiving pensions are quite often able to do something for themselves. If he stops to think further he will be able to recall many men, women and children who, because of their being incapacitated, are utterly unable to earn a livelihood for themselves. This creates a greater burden for the family than does one who has lost his sight or who is over the age of seventy years.
This matter has been talked about for years in the house; surely it does not need *ny further consideration or investigation. The taxpayers of Canada, I am sure, would be more than willing to grant aid to these people. They should be looked after.


Mr. John Hunter (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker,
I have a special interest - in this matter because in the federal riding of Parkdale is the Queen Elizabeth hospital for incurables, while in the provincial riding of Parkdale is located the Mercy hospital which performs the same task. In these hospitals are large numbers of people who have been pronounced incurable. While many of them improve, it is very rarely that they recover completely. When they reach the age of seventy years they are able to obtain a pension which permits them to buy many small things to make life more comfortable. Those who are below the age of seventy years and without private means find themselves unable to purchase such things as cigarettes, chocolate bars and so on, and yet they may be in such an institution for as long as ten, twenty, thirty or forty years. These people should be given support.

Some people are discharged and are able to take up again the burden of life, but they are rarely so completely cured that, employment is readily obtainable. Usually their history is against them. They may have suffered from arthritis or some other complaint and thus not be able to do work that can be done by other healthy people. As a result employment is difficult to obtain. At most, all they are able to get is specialized or limited employment.
I remember the by-election of 1946 in which I ran when the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) came down to help me. As he was a medical man I thought the logical place for him to accompany me would be to the Queen Elizabeth hospital. We went there and we saw many sad sights. Such sights are depressing to anyone who is unaccustomed to seeing them. I must say that many of the patients display a courage under most adverse conditions which must be seen to be believed. However, when we were about half way through our trip I could detect signs of paleness in the minister and he declared that he had business elsewhere and excused himself. I did not blame him in the least, because such sights really break your heart.
I cannot urge too strongly that hon. members support this resolution. Personally I feel that this measure is long overdue. There should be no objection to supporting the resolution in its present form, because it merely asks that the government consider the advisability of taking such action.


Mr. J. L. MacDougall (Vancouver-Burrard):: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to support the resolution moved1 by the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand). The hon. member who has just spoken (Mr. Hunter) stated that there are two institutions in his riding which take care of people afflicted in this way, and in which they are looked after, so far as it is humanly possible to do so, within the capacity of their families, the municipality or the institution itself.
In Vancouver-Burrard there is one of the larger hospitals in Canada. Before I represented that riding in this house I knew something of what was going on within the walls of that huge institution. I think today more than ever before we have a greater consciousness of being our brother's keeper. I need not reiterate that, because I know all hon. members have found that a certain stigma has been attached to the individual or to his family by virtue of there being an incurable within the family circle.
In the good old days our pride in looking after our own immediate family was a great

deal more virile than it is today. We must realize that as time goes on this condition of incurability is a great deal worse than it was twenty-five or thirty years ago. The hon. member has referred to the situation faced by the blind. We all know that in the larger cities, and even in the rural areas, as stated by the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low), it is sometimes possible to give employment to people in this category, but the public object to their being employed. This condition exists from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Regardless of our political beliefs I feel that we as a group in this house should give wholehearted support to this resolution.
I am not prepared to say to the government at the present time, and I do not think anyone else in the house is, what the bill of goods may cost. I am very happy to note that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) has stated that the survey is now under way. Regardless of what the specific disease may be, where an incurable mark or scar has been left on an individual surely that is a condition the betterment of which should meet with the wholehearted support of members of the House of Commons individually and collectively. Therefore I am more than happy to support the resolution and to learn that the government is now making a survey so that in the not too far distant future it may be able to come to the house and give us some idea of what this program may cost the taxpayers of Canada. I am sure the taxpayers will be glad to bear the burden.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I too wish to indicate my wholehearted support of the resolution now before the house. Like the others who have preceded me I want to congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) upon bringing forward this resolution, and I want to commend him in particular for his persistence in introducing it year in and year out. I hope the time has now been reached when the house will have an opportunity to record its opinion in favour of the resolution, and that government action will follow.
It is not my intention to take more than a few minutes, because this is a matter on which, from the speeches made thus far, apparently we are all agreed. I felt, however, that I should like to call to the attention of the house the fact that the special joint committee of the Senate and the House of Commons on old age security which met last year found itself face to face with this problem repeatedly, despite the fact that the committee recognized that its terms of reference did not permit it to discuss the problem. I note in particular that on page 101
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of the report of that committee, which was tabled in this house on June 28, 1950, there is this sentence:
The committee has been deeply impressed by the evidence presented as to the position, in which invalids and incurables find themselves at present.
I am sure that any members present who were members of the committee will agree with me that that is a very accurate statement of how members of that committee felt about the problem of incurables. I go on:
It has also received representations from organizations representing the blind, and blindness is, of course, part of the total problem of invalidity.
Then the committee had to say this:
The committee has felt, however, that the terms of reference established for it ruled out the possibility of a detailed examination of this problem as it applies to the younger age group.
I want to emphasize the fact that, although the committee realized that the problem of incurables was outside its terms of reference, the problem was so pressing that we kept coming back to it time and again. If I were to go through the mountain of evidence that we had before the committee I would be able to show that the question was referred to many times, both by delegations and by witnesses who appeared before the committee, and by members of the committee themselves. In the committee's final report, which is all I am referring to now, I find this further reference on page 103 under the heading "Other claims to priority". It reads:
Finally, in its study of the old age security systems in effect in other countries, and1 in its consideration of the evidence presented by representative Canadian organizations and individuals, the committee has had to keep constantly in mind the place of old age in an over-all social security program. While the terms of reference of the committee have limited its study to the specific field of old age security, it has not felt it advisable to overlook the fact that there are other areas of social need in which governments, both provincial and federal, may be called1 upon to take in the future a substantial measure of responsibility.
The committee went on to deal with these other matters that had to be looked at as well as old age, with which we were particularly concerned, including the problem of invalidity, and again I say, despite the fact that it was outside our terms of reference, the problem pressed itself upon us so deeply that the committee went to the extent of getting from officials of the Department of National Health and Welfare a figure as to what it might cost to provide pensions for invalids and incurables. That figure is contained in a paragraph on page 104 of the report. The reference is as follows:
So far as pensions for invalidity are concerned, an amount of the order of S40 to $50 million might be involved, depending on the details of the program and the nature of the eligibility test which might be applied.

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When the committee was dealing with this matter in April, May and June of last year, the figure of $40 to $50 million was still thought to be a rather large sum. That was before trouble broke in Korea. But now, in the light of the total money we are being called upon to vote this year, that amount dwindles to the point where surely no one in the house can object to the motion of the hon. member for Terrebonne on the ground of what it might cost to implement the recommendations contained therein.
That is all I wish to take time to say just now, for I want to see this motion voted on, and passed. My point is that the old age security committee is the one committee in recent years that has taken time to go into all these various problems. Our terms of reference required that we stick to old age pensions, but this problem was so pressing that we commented on it, we indicated what it might cost-a really small figure in terms of present day budgets-and we made it clear that in our view something had to be done for these people. I hope that the motion will come to a vote today and that the house will support it.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Speaker, like the members who have already spoken, I intend to take only a few minutes. I recall the work of the committee on old age security, to which the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) has referred. We were all disappointed that the terms of reference of the committee did not include the persons mentioned in the resolution of the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand). The fact that so many members feel they should say but a few words and that it is not necessary to make a long speech indicates, I think, that this is a subject which speaks for itself. I, like other members, have had the serious situation of crippled people brought very clearly to my attention many times. Some years ago I was a school inspector, and in going through my district I often met young people who were crippled. At that time I was so impressed by their helplessness that I thought it was a shame that something was not done for them.
I also sympathized with the situation of the parents. They used to bring their children to school, and I would say to them that it was going to be a very difficult matter to look after the crippled boy or girl; they would answer that they did not mind so much while they were living, but what worried them most was what was going to happen to the boy or girl after they had ceased to be able to care for them.
This is indeed a problem for the people of Canada. We have looked after our old people. We have looked after our blind. I know of many old people who need far less attention than the crippled children we see in our communities. The old people have lived their lives; many of them have homes and children to look after them. In many cases, however, the parents of these young people are dead and they have no one to look after them except perhaps their brothers and sisters. You go into the homes of these brothers and sisters who are married and have their own children growing up, and you find these poor young men and women sitting there, unable to look after themselves or to do anything to help themselves.
I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that this matter will come to a vote in the house. I congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) upon having brought it up again, and I believe it should receive the support of every member here. [DOT]
(Translation):


Mr. Pierre Gauthier (Porineuf):: Mr. Speaker, just a few words to congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) on the motion he has placed before the house.
Every time a motion such as this is being considered, I am reminded of two names that were familiar when I represented my constituency in the provincial legislature. They are that of Mr. David and of Dr. Lessard. As Mr. David so often said, he was always trying to help the unfortunate in his province. Working in close co-operation, Dr. Lessard and Mr. David established the basis of legislation that brought assistance to those who did not have the strength to resist the onslaught of disease.
They are responsible for the establishment in my province of health units that seek to prevent disease, thereby contributing to lower the number of disabled. In setting up the bases for the present health units, they established in the province of Quebec a system whose value does not seem to be fully appreciated.
Many years ago, when preventive medicine first appeared, I remember that Quebec city's best physician, Dr. Ahearn, who had gone to France at the end of the nineteenth century, used the aseptic method. At the time, several reports were published on the methods used in surgical techniques. Physi-
I Mr. Knowles.]

cians came to realize that it they wanted to help suffering humanity, all they had to do was to take steps to prevent disease in all its forms.
When the system of sanitary units was created in my province, a great step was made towards curing the disabled and those who would have become invalids because of a lack of preventive medicine. I would not want to enumerate at length the causes of disability in general. Far too often our people were slow in accepting the views held by doctors with respect to preventive medicine.
I remember that during my first years in practice my patients would often say to me: "I hope you will not stick posters on my house to show that there is diphtheria inside." Thanks to preventive medicine these contagious diseases have all but disappeared. Nowadays everybody asks, not only to be preserved from the complications following badly treated eruptive ailments, but that the public in general be warned about them in order to reduce the danger of contagion. While on the extended calls which are the country doctor's lot I have often noticed that though there are some invalids who ask for public assistance, others refuse to bother those whom they believe to be, like the representatives of the people, kindly disposed and ready to help the seriously affected victims of poorly treated and misunderstood eruptive ailments.
The House of Commons, the hon. member for Terrebonne and all those who spoke on this motion deserve credit for their interest in the disabled, particularly those who are reluctant to ask for help, and for seeking to allow those people to find some measure of enjoyment in a life that has been more or less favourable to them.
I said that I did not intend to give the list of all the disabilities which may follow poorly treated or misunderstood eruptive diseases. May I be permitted to mention only kidney, eye and ear troubles, which may cause deafness or blindness at an early age. Everyone knows the discomfort attending arthritis. At the risk of drawing criticism from those who do not believe in this remedy, allow me to suggest a preventive remedy for arthritic troubles which are too often the cause of disabilities among our citizens. I refer to the more or less rigid abstention from alcoholic beverages.
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I shall not dwell on this subject today for I might be beyond the range of the motion before us.
Those who are entrusted with the care of public moneys-


Paul Joseph James Martin: You speak very well.


Pierre Gauthier: Thank you. Those who are entrusted with the care of public moneys-like the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) who always listens to us with kindness-fear that the number of pensioners may keep on increasing until one day the government will be unable to cope with all applications for pension.
However, in view of the enormous progress achieved in that field, through the help of the medical profession and of people outside the profession who understand the necessity of preventive medicine, the number of disabled will tend- to decrease from day to day, from year to year. That is because the dangerous after-effects of various diseases will be avoided, thanks to the discoveries of research scientists.
I believe that the cost of such protection would not be as heavy as is thought at the present time. In any case, it would constantly decrease. I therefore beg the minister of national health and the government not to fear that too much money is involved. The house should support the motion of the hon. member for Terrebonne, and the government should introduce legislation which would make it possible, following the report on the survey which is still going on in connection with disabled people, to look with mercy on the lot of our invalids and hold out a helping hand in order to give them what is needed to lighten their burden at last.
I do not want to delay the passing of this motion. I only wanted to speak as a doctor, because I know that those who have access to the darkest recesses, farthest from the public gaze, can understand how much the disabled are hoping that the House of Commons and the federal government will act in that direction.


Mr. Azellus Denis (Si. Denis):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to join the previous speakers in supporting the motion of the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand).

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I am confident that, if a vote were taken on the motion, it would be carried unanimously.
I don't see why we should not take as great an interest in the sick and the disabled as we do in the blind and old age pensioners. We are also looking after wounded or disabled veterans. They are now drawing an allowance, although still able to earn their living. In my opinion, the disabled and the sick deserve as much attention as blind people, old age pensioners and veterans.
This resolution has been on the order paper for several years already. It is time to do an act of Christian charity, which would also be an act of justice on behalf of our own people, by coming to the assistance of the underprivileged. This, moreover, would be to the credit of the Liberal party to which I am happy to belong. The people of my constituency would be delighted to hear that the dominion government has passed legislation to assist our underprivileged, incapacitated and ailing citizens.
(Text):


Mr. Clarence Gillis (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to make any apologies for saying a few words on this resolution. It has been up for discussion on previous occasions, and I think this time we should make a decision on it. In my opinion the meaning of the word "incurable" is a matter of definition. The solution to this problem is not as simple as just deciding that you are going to pay a pension. In my opinion a large percentage of the people who today are termed "incurable" are people who could have led normal and useful lives if the disabilities from which they suffer had been taken care of early in life; and they were not taken care of simply because they could not afford the type of medical attention necessary for their particular disability.
In my opinion, the matter we are now discussing on the basis of what we term "incurable" is a matter that ties back in with an over-all health program in this country, by means of which every type of medical service may be placed at the disposal of those requiring it. Until that is done we are going to have more and more of the type of disability that we are now discussing.
I am sorry that the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Lapointe) is not in his seat. There are in this country on pensions and on war veterans' allowances thousands of war veterans with families. While the veterans themselves are protected as to hospitalization and medical attention, in the great majority of cases neither their wives nor children can afford medical attention of any kind. Many people in the categories I have just mentioned have come to me, and they have wanted to

know if there was not something we could do to enable them to get some medical service for their wives and families. In the veterans categories, for economic reasons, there will be in their families thousands of cases of the type we are now discussing unless we devise ways and means of providing medical attention for them.
Another case that you might put in this category is that of the mother who raised a family, who has sent her children out into the world, and who is between the age of fifty and sixty, or even up to sixty-nine. These women are too young for the old age pension; they are too old to work. There are thousands and thousands of mothers of boys who performed great service in the country and out of the country, who are broken down prematurely in life because of hard work and inadequate equipment ini the home to help them with the work, and who have no income whatsoever. The most pathetic figure in our midst, I think, is that woman. I know that in every member's constituency there are hundreds of them. They come in and say: My family is gone; I have no home; I am an object of charity; I have no income; I am between fifty and sixty years of age. There is no mother's allowance from the province, as there are no children under sixteen years of age; and there is no federal legislation. That type of case should be taken care of by way of pension. It should be done immediately.
As to this other matter, that of incurables, I think the root cause of a large percentage of the people being in that category is lack of medical attention at the time that something might have been done with regard to that particular disability. As to many that you meet across the country, it is obvious even to a layman that the type of disability from which they suffer is one of such a character that, if it had been taken in the earlier stages and medical science had been applied to it, they would not be in the condition in which they find themselves today.
I suggest to the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) that he hurry that survey up and that he include in that survey serious consideration to making medical science available to the people of this country. A large percentage of our people today cannot afford medical attention of any kind. If you happen to put a member of your family in the hospital for two, three or four months, when you get the bill it looks like the national debt. You are mortgaged for the next ten years in trying to take care of it. I am not blaming the hospitals nor the medical associations for this situation. I am blaming the government for failing to consider this problem seriously.


Mr. Marlin:: Your speech has been good up till now. Do not spoil it.


Clarence Gillis: I ask the government to consider seriously the enactment of an over-all health plan immediately. I think it is one of the basic needs of the country.
I also want to compliment the hon. member who has brought this resolution before the house. He has done it time and again, and this time we intend to see that he gets a vote on it.


Mr. W. G. Blair (Lanark):: Mr. Speaker, I remember well when, in 1946, the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) brought this resolution into the house. I supported it at that time, and I am glad to say that the discussion took place all that afternoon and continued on until almost eleven o'clock at night, such was the interest of the house. But although I supported the resolution at that time I pointed out to the hon. member that there was with regard to it some faulty draftsmanship which defeated the object of the resolution itself. But now I find myself in complete agreement with the resolution as it is presented today.
I am glad the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) raised the matter of incurables. It is quite true that it is extremely difficult to define "incurable", and it is also extremely difficult, as we shall discover when we draft legislation for this bill, to state really what you mean by an incurable disease. That is more difficult to define than it would appear to be on the surface. To declare that a person is unemployable, as we are sometimes called upon to do, is also a matter of difficulty.
The hon. member was on sound ground on one matter to which he directed attention. I have had some personal experience in the matter of crippled children and service clubs. I happen to belong to a local Rotary club in my own home town, and I must say I was amazed at the results they have had in their campaign for crippled children. I sometimes wonder where the committee in charge of that work found all the cripples, inasmuch as I thought I knew most of the people for many miles around my own town. The work that they are doing to save people from the condition mentioned by the hon. member for Cape Breton South, namely being permanently disabled, is a marvellous one. But something more should be done, because we cannot expect the service clubs to cover a whole area or a whole county. It just cannot be done. But I have seen enough of this work to agree fully with the hon. member for Cape Breton South that much more could be done especially if it were a national project.
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There is no doubt that some of the people who are mentioned in this resolution might be considered under other classes. We have arranged for the care of our veterans, and so far as they are concerned, in the matter of wounds and disabilities, they are very easy to judge because these things are apparent. But when the pensions board get down to the question of defining the amount of disability in regard to sickness, it is not always easy to deal with.
I call the attention of hon. members to the fact that this resolution is not as easy as it looks; but it is something that we must get down to business on and deal with. I have had other experiences in that matter. I have seen these crippled children, crippled mentally, in their homes. Just as the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks) mentioned this afternoon, while their parents are living it is quite all right, they will be taken care of. When the parents die then the trouble begins. Sometimes they are found in very distressing circumstances, and they end up in the public ward of a hospital.
Perhaps there is no chance of doing anything along that line, except at the time they come in to build them up and recapture their health so far as you can. Then the hunt begins for a public institution to take care of them. Very little in the way of any arrangement has been made for these people who are below par mentally. They are really most difficult to deal with, because they are not of sufficiently low grade to be accepted in the mental hospitals, and it would be difficult to teach them and rehabilitate them in the way of carrying on some useful occupation.
I was impressed by the amount of work that has been done of late years in rehabilitation, especially of veterans. Many of these people-and I mention this to the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) -can be rehabilitated in some way to get a proper education to make a living for themselves. Many of these people never had the advantage of a proper education that they could use in earning a living.
I remember last spring when a group of incurables came to the House of Commons seeking some redress in this matter. Many of them were pitiable cases. You felt that something should be done for them. One could not see these people without being impressed with that fact. Later we had the old age security committee. That committee, sir, felt that something should be done, but there was nothing in the terms of reference which made it possible to deal with this situation.
I happen to be physician to a home for the aged in my own county. The other day

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I was looking at some of these people who have been there for years and years, who did not qualify in any way by age, but there was no place for them. Young men came in there crippled, but bright mentally. If something had been done for them at the time they contracted whatever disease was causing their affliction they would not be in an institution of that kind, but would have been able to earn their livelihood.
Another thing that impressed me very much last year at the time we had our short session is this. I received three letters from people suffering from multiple sclerosis. They had gone as far as they possibly could. Naturally they sought to be cured. They had spent all their money trying to be cured, and the three of them had arrived at that stage when they wondered what was going to happen. They had no homes, or there were no facilities in the homes, if they had any, for their care. Certainly there was no one in particular to care for them. The difficulty was to get them into some institution.
You find these people in all ages of life. As has been suggested this afternoon, there are in the old age group people over seventy much better able to care for themselves, to work and to earn a living, than many of these people. That is something that I think hon. members should not simply pass by. Many hon. members have said that this afternoon. We should go a little further than we have ever gone before.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare has brought out something when he says that he is making a survey to find out the number of people who will require treatment under this resolution. But I think we can progress somewhere a little further along the road, without waiting for the complete results of the survey. Surely we can take some of these people, such as we saw last spring, into a welfare group as a beginning.
Therefore today I congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne on being sufficiently aggressive to have kept this going since 1946. I think it is a good resolution. It is a resolution which every hon. member should support. Let us make a beginning by taking in some of these people even without the complete results of the survey, although the results of any survey are important. What I am trying to say is, let us try to get this group of apparent cripples, who are absolutely incurable, for whom there is no place, into a welfare group at the beginning. Let that be a start.
It is very easy of course to talk on a resolution like this. But I think that group

should be taken first. The other group mentioned, namely, those suffering from an incurable disease, will require sufficient careful thought before we can take them all into the welfare group.- It is not going to be so easy always to define the man or woman as being incurable, or to define them as being permanently unemployable. Therefore I think this survey should show the number of people permanently unemployable for whom there is no hope whatever, the number of people who can be rehabilitated in any sense to make a living, and the number of mental cases. I would imagine that there is very little hope for many people who are in that class.
Hon. members are aware that hospitals, especially mental hospitals, are jammed to the doors. We should take recognition of the lower-grade types, the types just below par mentally but who are not sufficiently mentally ill to become an inmate of an institution, but are handicapped in earning their own living.
There is another group of people who are mentally alert, but are subject to chronic diseases such as epilepsy. Some of these people are difficult to rehabilitate. It is dangerous to have them around machinery. They must be in some place where there is some supervision. Much can be done to help these people. Any doctor who has been in practice for some time knows very well that if he can get some of these people under treatment he can do a great deal for them.
I support this resolution in its entirety today, realizing the difficulty there would be in drawing the line between certain of these cases; but I suggest we make a beginning to deal with this question and not just pass it by as a resolution that we think should deserve some support and then forget about it for a year. We should make a beginning by taking into the welfare group as soon as the minister's survey is completed these people, the type we saw here last spring, where their permanent disability is apparent, and let us move on from there, carefully watching the type of legislation that we bring in. Let us move to the place where all people who are handicapped in earning a livelihood, who are incurable, will become a public charge, and will go into the welfare group, or receive sufficient money to keep them out of institutions, because one might use the term "cluttering up". They sometimes find their way into the public wards of institutions anid take up beds that could be used for acute cases. There is not one of us who does not want to do something for these people.
The need is great; it is apparent to everyone. Let us make a start on it today; and as soon as the survey is completed, as soon as

the number of cases of disabilities and permanently unemployable can be learned by the minister's department, let us place those people in the welfare group, and get on with what is suggested in the resolution, so that no longer will we see these people selling pencils on street corners and tolerated by the police only because they are crippled.
We could go further than that. I believe this group is just as important to the house as is the old age group; certainly we have been very slack in dealing with invalids, with those who have suffered these afflictions, and we should begin today to do something about it.


Mr. Robert Fair (Battle River):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to say only a few words in support of the resolution moved for the second time by the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand). On other occasions I have raised the matter, and I shall be very happy indeed to do anything to help at this time.
We must not be told now, as we have been in the past, that we have not the money to take care of these people. In the near future we shall be asked to make provision for between five and six billions of dollars for the purpose of destroying and crippling people in other countries, and perhaps in our own. Let us spend at least a portion of that amount to take care of those in our own country who cannot take care of themselves.
I speak at this time because, like many other members, from time to time I receive letters from people in my constituency who are physically incapacitated. Up to the present time my replies have not satisfied me, and I am sure they have not satisfied them. Many of us who have full use of our limbs and senses are finding it difficult to make a living; we should be able easily to picture the task faced by those who are physically incapacitated. I shall support the resolution, and I offer my congratulations to the mover.


Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Dufferin-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, it is unusual to find, as in this case, unanimity on any issue in the House of Commons. This afternoon I am impelled to say a few words in support of the resolution. In doing so I shall not take much time of the house, because I am in agreement with what has been stated by men in the medical profession who have spoken, the hon. members for Portneuf (Mr. Gauthier) and Lanark (Mr. Blair), each of whom has studied this social problem for many years.
It seems to me that our common interest in the resolution should prevent its being talked out this afternoon. I often think that in our democratic form of government on
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many occasions we put first things last, and last things first. Already in Canada we have an extensive social security program. The unanimity expressed in respect of this resolution is a further indication of that human sympathy aroused in each of us from our respective districts, each of whom has seen pitiful cases such as have been described today. It seems to me that these crippled and maimed people should have been looked after long ago, even before other social security measures were instituted. Not only have crippled children and other handicapped people in our society suffered, but they have been a source of embarrassment to their families and a charge against the good friendship of neighbours. Many times the support they have received has been meagre, and those charged with that support have found difficulty in maintaining their families.
Aside from political considerations altogether, I say this is a reflection upon our country. We have clamoured for those kinds of security which would find popular appeal, have given security to the many and have neglected the few. While this may have been an oversight, I have felt for many years that the condition should be rectified. Within the knowledge of all in this chamber today there are cases where the nature of the handicap has been such that the families have not had the money to give the necessary relief and treatment. There has not been sufficient money to give even that degree of care which would give comfort to those suffering.
I find myself in full support of the resolution, and I note with pride the unanimity of feeling among hon. members who have spoken. I have no doubt further that those who have not spoken will share in that spirit of human sympathy so that we may join in a common effort to see that the suggestion in the resolution is made effective.
I do not often speak at length in the house, because I feel that on many occasions the time of parliament is wasted. However, if we are sincere in what we say, and if we are not just talking to please those who are handicapped, then I am sure we will see to it that the resolution is not talked out and that effect will be given to it. While the application of the suggestion in the resolution may not have as broad application as in some other types of social legislation, it would serve to satisfy many anxious and deserving people.
Canada is a great country; we are a strong, rich and virile nation, and we should be ashamed of ourselves if we are content to give security to the strong and fail to provide for those who are handicapped and who,

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through no fault of their own, find themselves crippled, handicapped, impoverished', unhappy and uncomfortable, while we give service to others.
As was said so well by the hon. member for Lanark, the Lord has made some people so strong that, even after reaching the age of seventy years, they are still quite capable. I have known many men in politics who would have debated with vigour any suggestion that they had lost any of their ability because they had passed1 the seventy-year mark. There are others working in the bush who are still capable and who can do a good day's work. Then there are many men of that age engaged in the practice of law-indeed, I am sure that within the next twenty years, even after he reaches the age of seventy, the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) will still be an able man.
We must not overlook those who have been handicapped for so many years. We are strong enough and, as a country with our vast resources-the greatest of any country with a small population-we must not fail to look after those who should have been looked after first in our social security program. I am not speaking in a derogatory way about the present government; I am saying that as a country we should have looked after those people first, and that those who needed help less could have been considered later.


Mr. Jean Frangois Pouliot (Temiscouata):: Mr. Speaker, I must answer the call of the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe). First of all may I congratulate the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand), who has sponsored the resolution, and also another pioneer in social legislation, the hon. member for Compton-Frontenac (Mr. Blanchette), who introduced similar legislation several years ago.
The question of giving assistance to invalids is one deserving consideration by the whole country. It is pitiful when we think of those neediest cases, to which reference was made in the Christmas edition of the New York Times. There have been great strides in social legislation during the last twenty years. In former years no one thought of giving a pension to the old, to the blind, to needy mothers, or providing family allowances. If someone who lived a quarter of a century ago came back to this world and visited Canada he would see the great progress that has been made in the way of social legislation.
I can remember that when I started my law practice there were very few children who were not supporting their parents. I practised for about fifteen years before giving all my time to politics and I can remember only two such cases. Then old age pensions

were brought in by the Liberal government and people over the age of seventy years are receiving $40 per month or less. A pension of $40 per month is paid to blind persons over the age of twenty-one years. Family allowances are paid for children until they reach the age of sixteen years.
For those people who are incapacitated but who are not blind there is a gap between the ages of sixteen and seventy years. The pension to the blind as well as the old age pension is paid jointly by this government and the provinces.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We pay 75 per cent.


Jean-François Pouliot: I know that. What astounds me is that the administration of these pensions is not under the control of Ottawa but rather under the control of the provinces who pay only twenty-five per cent. It may be that the government of the day did not want to infringe upon provincial rights and wanted to make an outright gift to the provinces which would be distributed as wisely as possible to the old of seventy years and over and to the blind. When the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) took charge of the department he reduced the eligible age for blind pensions to twenty-one years.
A person of seventy years of age and over is entitled to a pension of $40 if he is needy. If he has put aside a bit of money for his burial or for masses after his death, he must render an account of that to the pension authorities or his pension may be reduced. I must say that in past years the management of old age pensions and pensions for the blind in Quebec has been most satisfactory. I have had to write quite often to the authorities about different cases and the answers I have received have been satisfactory.
In view of the fact that there is only one branch of the department in each province dealing with family allowances it means that the member of parliament must act as the agent of the government to see that there is a proper distribution of family allowances in his constituency. That duty is added to his other duties. I do not consider it to be patronage because there is no political partisanship in the awarding of allowances and the making of requests or representations to the minister. On the other hand, it means considerable work to see that there is a reasonable and fair distribution of family allowances in the constituency.
I should like to make one suggestion to the minister who I know is on good terms with the department of health of the province of Quebec. 1 want to take advantage of this

opportunity to pay a special tribute to Dr. Jean Gregoire and Dr. Beaudet, whom you know very well and who made such a success of setting up health units in Temiscouata county when he was stationed there. These are men of great heart. They understand human misery and, like the Minister of National Health and Welfare, they are always ready to help those who suffer. They deserve commendation, not only in this House of Commons but anywhere their names are mentioned.
There is no control over the expenditure of family allowances and I suggest to the minister that he should get in touch with the provincial governments. Arrangements should be made to have those who receive family allowances visited once a year or every two years by the nurses of the health units so that it will be known whether family allowances are being used for the purposes for which they are given.
There are many poor families who live on the family allowances. The father may be ill or disabled and the mother may have many children to look after. Sometimes the only income is the family allowance cheque. That is pitiful, but it is more pitiful when some of the children are incapacitated, some from birth, some because of accident or others because of illness. They have not the means to pay for their own care. The situation in my constituency is no different from that of any other constituency in Canada. There are some human beings who are physically infirm or abnormal. They may suffer from any illness or disability. The rich may go to a hospital and always find a room but these other people cannot always do so. Sometimes they go to the hospital. Sometimes they live far away in the back country. They are isolated and they need help.
I read a Canadian Press dispatch last week telling about a woman who was alone in her cabin in the north country. Her husband was a lumberjack and was far away from home. The nearest settlement was quite a distance away. She was suffering from an attack of appendicitis. She had to go to the nearest settlement. She had two young children. She put them on a sleigh and brought them to the nearest settlement in the cold of winter. There was nobody in the house but the door was open. She could telephone somewhere else. One of the children had his feet frozen and had to be operated on later. I think of that woman of the far north of one of the western provinces-I believe it was British Columbia-who was alone with her young children, became ill, and had to walk so far with them in the cold.
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That is a deserving case, and there should be an organization through which the children could be looked after. It is probably done in all the provinces. On one occasion a man from my constituency was taken sick in the province of British Columbia. I wrote to the then minister of health of that province who saw to it that he was hospitalized there. In the same way people from other provinces who fall ill in the province of Quebec are looked after when the occasion arises. This is a matter of Christian charity.
Last Sunday evening, Mr. Speaker, you probably listened to the excellent broadcast by Rev. Father Desmarais, a Dominican, at 7.30 p.m. over the trans-Canada network of the C.B.C. He spoke about charity and talked about a very well dressed old lady who was attending a melodrama in Montreal, or wherever it was. It was called "The Two Orphans". It was pathetic at times and she shed tears. She had her handkerchief in her hand and she was shedding tears while listening to the story of the two orphans. After the play was over the priest stood at the door of the theatre and the old lady came out. A limousine was waiting for her, and two little kids in rags were asking for charity. They had no rubbers, their clothes were torn, and they seemed to be suffering from the cold. They said to the lady: "Charity, please, in the name of God." She said: "How dare you impertinent children bother me when I am on my way to my car?"
I know that is not the feeling of any member of the house. We all understand that according to the doctrine of Christ the way to deal with our neighbours must be entirely different. That is not the way our Lord taught the gospel during His lifetime. There is one thing I want to tell the minister, and he probably knows it. I refer to the extent and depth of the love of parents for their children. One may read the resolution and say:	We will send these invalids to the
nearest hospital.


Solon Earl Low: It does not say that, does it?


Jean-François Pouliot: No. I say that we may say: We will send the invalids to the hospital. I want to tell the minister that the love of parents of disabled children is so deep that they do not want them to be taken away from them under any consideration. The mother wants to look after her sick child.


Pierre Gauthier: That is right.


Jean-François Pouliot: And when the father comes home at night he always inquires about the sick child before thinking of the others who are in good health. It is precisely because of that affection which I might call deep love,

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real love, that parents would not be separated from their children. They would object to their children being taken away from them to be sent to a hospital.


Solon Earl Low: Hear, hear.


Jean-François Pouliot: It must be the same in my hon. friend's constituency. It is the same all over Canada. I am not speaking of an exception. I am speaking of the love of parents for their children, a most admirable thing. If these children were sent to a hospital it would be much more costly than if a pension were awarded to these families as suggested in the resolution of the hon. member for Terrebonne. It will be much cheaper for the country to pay to such children or older people the same amount paid to people seventy or over, to the blind of twenty-one or over or to needy mothers who are paid directly by the provinces without any federal contribution. The dominion government should do something to equalize the pension paid by the provinces to needy mothers for their children up to the age of sixteen, and it should look after the invalids of the whole country. Here we have a country where the climate is healthy, the surroundings are beautiful and the scenery is glorious. In this country there is no reason why the sick and disabled should not be looked after by the state if their families have not the means to do so.
I do not want to take too much time of the house, but this is a matter I have at heart. I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, and the minister what have been my observations in travelling around my constituency and visiting the poor among my constituents. I am interested in them largely because they never complain. They are proud and they have the dignity of pride. They are timid; they do not want to talk about their misfortunes. We have to become friends with them to learn about their lives; and to anyone who is given the privilege of hearing their sad stories of human misery there is a strong appeal. This is a confidence that can be given only by a friend to a friend; it is never given to a stranger. If I have suggested to the minister that there should be a check on the distribution of family allowances by means of the admirable nurses with the health units throughout Canada, it is because these women while visiting families where there are young children would be able to report to the government these sad cases of disability. Then many times the minister would have the joy of helping young people improve their lot by giving them better health. While the amount paid in family allowances is very large, about $200 million-


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was $307 million in the last calendar year.


Jean-François Pouliot: So much the better. We cannot complain about moneys spent to ensure the good health of all who live in this country. I am not for socialized medicine, but I am in favour of the extension of pensions to those who suffer most. Naturally there is a difficulty, and that is to establish what constitutes a disability which would entitle a person to that pension. That is a matter to be discussed by the learned members of the medical fraternity; but it can be done. It can be said that a child who suffers from infantile paralysis, and who will suffer from it all his life because he had not the opportunity the child of wealthier parents would have to go to hospital when the disease struck him, should be given every opportunity to recover and live to a ripe old age.
These are matters of the utmost interest to all, as will be agreed by any member of parliament who lives among his electors and listens to them. No one would refuse to help these people. At Ceylon it was decided that Canada should subscribe $25 million to improve the living standards of Asia. We may think a lot about China, but the United States is spending more in a month bombarding Korea, destroying lives, than this government has undertaken to spend in that area in a year. I am not for the destruction of life; I am for the improvement of health conditions throughout Canada. If this country is rich enough to give away $25 million and more to help improve conditions in Asia, I believe we should look after our own conditions first. We should be ashamed of ourselves if we do not pay attention to the poor, the humble and the sick in this country.
The minister has done very well. He has improved his department to such an extent that it is a pleasure for me to tell him so in this house; but his job is not finished. We are on the eve of social reform, which must start at the bottom. It would be ridiculous to give the old age pension to the rich and leave without help the sick and needy between the age of sixteen and seventy. Their sickness is an urgent call to the government, particularly to the minister, requiring their immediate attention to this matter. If we are to prepare for war, that is no excuse for not looking after our own people in this country who suffer in silence. If I speak loudly in this house today it is on their behalf. I am sure I have been heard, and that the minister will not do what has been done in the past. I am sure he will not postpone the matter until another session, but will see to it at this session that some help is given to invalids between the ages of sixteen and seventy; that is, excluding

those who are blind, who thanks to the present minister are already in receipt of some help from the age of twenty-one.
Now, sir, I will not speak any longer. I have said part of what I wanted to say; but before closing I want to mention one instance. In my county there is a family of which five children, varying in age from twenty to thirty, are hunchbacks and dwarfs; but they are extremely intelligent. Think how deserving that mother was to bring them up. They have brothers and sisters who are normal, but the mother also looked after these children and brought them up very nicely. They are clever children, and I like them. When I see them, they say, "Mr. Pouliot, when will you speak over the radio again? We like to listen to you". You know, a statement like that is wonderful. I said to the mother, "Why do you not send your children to the hospital to be looked after?" She said, "Never. I will look after them." The father is not a rich man. He is getting old now. I mention the mother as one of the admirable ones who look after their own children. She brought up these invalids with such devotion and care that it deserves special acknowledgment and a special tribute.
I am not going to say any more; I am through. I thank the house and the minister for having listened to the plea for those who suffer and deserve immediate help.


Mr.  W. Chester S. McLure@Queens: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to take any length of time at all. All I want to say is one thing, and I want to say it to the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin); but he has left the chamber for the time being. In 1945 I brought this matter to his attention; and since then, if he looks over his file, he will find at least thirty-five or forty requests of him for people in my constituency.
I am glad that this resolution is before the house today because when the vote is taken on it this afternoon I think it will be a unanimous one; and it will be a most wonderful thing if it has the support of the entire house. I am not going to put up any further arguments in support of the resolution because it is not necessary. Every hon. member of the house believes in it. I just want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I want to support it by a vote this afternoon.


Mr. C. E. Johnston (Bow River):: Mr. Speaker, I see that there are quite a few members yet who wish to speak on this motion. I do not want to take too long. Certainly I do not want to be accused of attempting to talk this matter out. Yet I want to add my voice to those who have already spoken in its support.
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I think every member of this house recognizes the worthiness of such a motion. They also recognize the necessity for this house doing something. We all quite well recall that just about a year ago a delegation of incurables came to this house. Most of them were in wheel chairs or had to be assisted from one part of the house to the other. On that occasion they visited every party represented in this house, and I am sure that they had a most wonderful reception. But although every party in this house received them with the greatest courtesy, listened to them patiently and endeavoured to do everything they could for their assistance, nevertheless I wonder just what has been done. That was a year ago. Even though this motion were passed today-and I suppose that if it comes to a vote it will pass; I hope it will-what is going to be done?
I recall quite well that about a year ago, before I left Calgary, I had the pleasure-if one can call it that-of attending one of these incurables' meetings. I was pleased to go there and assist them in what way I could. But it was certainly a pathetic scene, to see about thirty or forty of these cripples congregated in that one room in the home of one of them. Some of them had to be assisted there. Others were brought by cars. They could not walk. Some even had wheel chairs on that occasion. Some of those people were employed. I recall one lady who was employed; and she had to be assisted every day down to her work.
It is true that the blind are in a pathetic plight. It is terrible to be blind. We are assisting those people to some degree. But I just wonder how much worse it is for persons to be crippled by poliomyelitis or arthritis or something like that, as a result of which they cannot use their hands or their legs; they are absolutely dependent upon somebody else for everything. Yet we do not do a thing for them. Some of these people are compelled either to eke out an existence on their own behalf or to submit to charity. Th&t should not be. As was said by the hon. member who preceded me, we are giving $25 million to the Colombo plan, to assist these needy peoples in other countries. That is a worthy cause, but it seems to me that it is just as worthy, if not more so, that we should immediately begin to take care of some of these incurables within our own boundaries.
I know that the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) is sympathetic to these people. We were told by the delegation that. came here a year ago that the minister received them most courteously,

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listened to them carefully, and was sympathetic. But a year has passed since then and nothing has been done. Sympathy is not going to get them anywhere. We must do more than that. Canada is not such a hard-up country, financially or otherwise, that we could not begin to do a little bit. I should like to see the minister come forward with some sort of plan during this session, even though it be not very great. It will be a start in the right direction. I hope something will be done.
(Translation):


Mr. Raoul Poulin (Beauce):: Mr. Speaker, with my colleagues' permission, I shall say only a few words in support of the motion put forward by the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand).
I well understand that this is an extremely involved matter. I have no wish of complicating it further by a long speech. Nevertheless there are certain aspects of the question which are quite simple, as all here will readily agree. We do have in our midst disabled people, incurables, from the mental or physical points of view, who are worthy of our attention.
One of the aspects of this matter is that very often the permanently disabled are unhappy not so much because of their physical disability, but because of a feeling of inferiority, as well as the anguish and anxiety they feel about their future. If these incurables could feel that the government of their country and their representatives dealt appropriately with their case, it is certain that their disabilities would seem less of a burden and that they could put up with their condition.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) told us a while ago that a survey was already under way to determine how many people are permanently disabled in this country. The hon. minister and the house may be surprised at the very large number of these incurables. Naturally, this condition would involve quite a financial problem. Fortunately, it is not my problem but that of the government.
However, I want to point out another aspect of the matter which the hon. member for Port-neuf (Mr. Gauthier) mentioned a moment ago. It is a fact that if they are granted an allowance many disabled would be in a position to improve their condition and perhaps to be made well again.
There are undoubtedly a great many families without sufficient means to give medical attention to their members suffering from a

chronic disease. With proper care, a great number of these sick people could be restored to health. Naturally one cannot blame our large families for not giving their disabled members all the care their condition would require.
I have nothing more to add. May I say, however, that I quite understand the government's reluctance. I realize it takes time to settle a matter like this. Apart from any political motive, even if it has been said, a few moments ago, that this measure was a measure of the Liberal party, I believe all parties will admit there is something to be done in this field.
The Minister of National Health and Welfare will surely consider this highly important problem. I hope that in the not too distant future he will find a way to help our incurables.
(Text):


Joseph-Adéodat Blanchette: Mr. Speaker, I need not tell you that I am heartily in accord with the mover of this resolution as well as in accord with hon. members who have expressed themselves on this matter this afternoon. As the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) has said, it is true that some few years back, after the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) had introduced this resolution, I myself in the following year introduced a resolution along the same lines. My explanation for it is that I did not know the tenacity of the hon. member for Terrebonne as well then as I do now. Knowing how tenacious he has been since then I have supported him in each succeeding year since he first introduced the resolution in 1946.
I feel, Mr. Speaker, you will agree with me that the discussions this afternoon have been most interesting, most beneficial and most comforting, especially to the invalids and to those who are incurable. Perhaps it will give them a certain hope, because some of them have felt that they have been forgotten in the social legislation.
It is true, as we all know, that certain assistance has been given to needy mothers by way of family allowances to children, and also pensions have been given to the aged and to the blind. It seems to me that we should go a step farther in our social legislation and do all that we can to hasten assistance to the invalids and to the incurables.
I have had the privilege of being mayor of a municipality and warden of my county in the province of Quebec for the past twelve or fifteen years. It is true that in that province we have the public assistance act, but this act does not seem to be operative when

certain cases of invalids or incurables come up, for the simple reason that the different municipalities have to contribute a certain percentage, which they cannot do at times.
I know that this measure will involve an expenditure of money by the government when it is placed on the statute books of the country; but if up to this time it has been impossible for the federal government to do that, and if it has been also impossible for some of the provincial governments to do it, I know you will admit with me, Mr. Speaker, that it has also been impossible for some of the municipalities to give the aid which we think should be given to the invalids and to the incurables.
I know that in my riding we have exactly what we have in all of the ridings of the country, namely, certain cases of invalids, most meritorious cases, that cannot be helped because of lack of legislation either in the federal field or in the provincial field. Therefore I know that these people will be greatly comforted today by the speeches which have been made, and especially by the declaration of the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin), who has said that a survey is being made at the present time.
Like the hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Blair), I trust that this survey will be expedited. I also associate myself with the suggestion made by the hon. member for Lanark that once this legislation is enacted the first step that should be taken should be that of caring for those who are readily recognized by the layman as being invalids and incurables.
I may be permitted to make a suggestion to the Minister of National Health and Welfare because this legislation, if enacted, will be hard to follow and difficult to apply. There will also be a certain amount of money to be allocated1 to care for those unfortunate persons. I am wondering, and have been thinking for some time, whether it would not be possible, when the legislation is enacted, to specify that a certain tax-call it an invalid tax if you wish-might be charged at all sporting events that are held throughout the country during the year. I feel that no one who attends those sporting events would object to the payment of five cents or ten cents extra which might be directed toward the assistance given to the invalids and the incurables.
The hon. member for Temiscouata has said that this country has voted a certain amount of money to be devoted to the alleviation of human suffering throughout the world. Perhaps I can associate myself with him to a certain extent and with the sentiments
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expressed in the lines of the poet, which most of you know. They are as follows:
We have kind words for strangers And smiles for the sometimes guest.
But oft for our own, the bitter tone,
Though we love our own the best.


Mr. J. H. Rooney (St. Paul's):: I should
like to make a few remarks in this debate. I do so because, coming from the city of Toronto, I have often claimed that the riding of St. Paul's is the richest riding in Canada and still the poorest riding in Canada. I believe that the Minister of National Health and Welfare is very sympathetic to this matter. I can say much of what I have seen in the past in the city of Toronto, where I have seen much suffering. If there is any reputation I have in Toronto it is due to the work that my friends and I have done in the past years for the benefit of the poor, the sick and the weak.
In 1932, at a little house in Toronto, four of us sat and we joined together to see what we could do for the poor and the sick. We soon were meeting in the different homes every week in different parts of the riding. I mention that to indicate that what I speak about I know from the practical experience of the work we did during those trying times. I have often said in the past that if someone were lost in the wilds we would never think of the money that we would spend to save that one life. Yet we stand aside, we sit here and talk, and we forget that every day there are people dying, people in different parts of this great country of ours, a country supposed to be one of the wealthiest in the world, who are suffering untold agonies.
I have been censured sometimes for what has been called wholly thinking; but when I came to Ottawa as the member for St. Paul's I came with one idea, and that was that perhaps I could do something for the benefit of mankind. I say that here and now, in this resolution, we have an opportunity to do something for mankind.


Solon Earl Low: Hear, hear; if we can get a
vote, we will.


James Hendrick Rooney: The resolution refers to:
. . . the advisability of including in their social security program a system of allowances to every person without any sufficient income or means of support, who, by reason of an injury, accident, congenital infirmity or incurable disease, is at a disadvantage in seeking or obtaining employment, or incapable of providing for his subsistence, and whose age prevents him from benefiting by the social security legislation now in force.
That covers nearly everything. I heard an hon. member opposite say that if we could get to a vote we would accomplish something. Because I am deeply interested in this resolution, and so that I may not be

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accused of prolonging the debate, I shall close in the hope that it may come to a vote immediately.


Mr. Bona Arsenault (Bonaventure):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to be brief in what I have to say. At the very beginning of my remarks may I state that the object under consideration at this time is one which, according to the provisions of the British North America Act, falls within the exclusive jurisdiction of the provinces. Therefore it seems to me that unless and until our Canadian constitution is amended no plans can be worked out or carried into effect by the government, or by any other federal administration, to provide pensions to the disabled, without first seeking the approval and the co-operation of the provinces to that effect.


An hon. Member:: Family allowances.


Bona Arsenault: It does not apply to family allowances at all; they are paid to all children within a certain age. In this instance we will have to have provision such as is made for the blind. According to section 92(7) and 92(13) of the Canadian constitution this is a matter which falls within provincial jurisdiction.


Solon Earl Low: But it is not insurmountable, as it was in the case of the blind.


Bona Arsenault: A plan should be worked out.


Major James William Coldwell: The same as in connection with old age pensions.


Bona Arsenault: Yes, otherwise it would infringe upon provincial autonomy.
It is urgent, most urgent, that adequate assistance be provided to Canadians, to men and women who, on account of permanent disability caused through sickness, accident or otherwise, are in need of relief. Assistance must be given to these men and women whose cases are not already covered by provincial legislation.
How often do members of the House of Commons stand helplessly, confronted with heart-breaking cases of disabled persons in distress. How often do all of us, on both sides of the house, and without exception, receive letters and requests for help of some sort from unfortunate persons belonging to the category set out in the resolution, what I would describe as the out-class of our population, those who are disabled and in need. They are too old to receive the benefits of family allowances and too young to receive old age pensions. Yet they are unable to earn their own livelihood. Their cases are not covered by any legislation, and our society seems to deal with them most unfairly.
IMr. Rooney.]
Whatever the cost-and I repeat this- whatever the cost to the provinces or to the federal treasury, something must be done, and done without delay, for this forgotten class in our population. No civilized government in the world, no Christian democracy, can let any section of its citizens suffer. I contend some means must be found, some provision must be made at the earliest possible date for the care of the disabled in our country, those who are unable to support themselves, and who do not already receive assistance from provincial administrations.
Naturally this will add to the cost of providing social security for Canadian citizens. But the more highly civilized a country, the greater the expense of carrying on its government. I believe that by an expenditure of not more than five per cent of the amount already provided for social security the disabled and others in need of financial assistance could be adequately cared for.
Yes, I know some will claim that it is not the function of either the provincial governments or the federal government to undertake what can be accomplished by private charity. They are afraid of the so-called welfare state. Let me tell them that we have no choice: we will either have a welfare state in some measure or, sooner or later, we may be a communist state. Faith, hope and charity provide the only fertile soil for freedom, the only air in which a true democracy can breathe.
In conclusion, my proposal is that this government now-not later-should seek the co-operation of the provinces in order to find a means to provide a pension of at least $40 a month for the disabled in the country who are unable to support themselves, and whose cases are not already covered by provincial legislation. Pensions for the disabled would be provided with the co-operation of the provincial administrations, on the same basis as the provision already made for the blind.
(Translation):


Mr. L. D. Tremblay (Dorchester):: Mr. Speaker, I have only a few words to say on this resolution which, obviously, has the whole-hearted support of all members.
I join with previous speakers in warmly congratulating our excellent colleague from Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) for the initiative he takes every year in putting this resolution on the order paper.
A few moments ago, he recalled with the perseverance and persistency typical, I assume, of the people from up north, that this was the sixth time he was moving a similar resolution in the house.

Nearly everyone in the province of Quebec is aware now of the resolution moved, by the hon. member. It has indeed received well deserved publicity. The motion reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should during the present session take into consideration the advisability of including in their social security program a system of allowances to every person without any sufficient income or means of support, who, by reason of an injury, accident, congenital infirmity or incurable disease, is at a disadvantage in seeking or obtaining employment, or incapable of providing for his subsistence, and whose age prevents him from benefiting by the social security legislation now in force.
All members who were elected in the last few years certainly have received applications for assistance from invalid or disabled persons from their own or some other counties. Those were of course extremely sad cases they would have liked to help. Unfortunately, they can only answer that there is no legislation allowing the federal government to deal with such cases.
Every member naturally passes those requests on to the government. Everyone submits such requests to the minister in order to emphasize to him the unanimous desire of charitable societies and associations for the blind to receive greater assistance for their charges.
It is encouraging to note that the present government is looking into these matters with sympathy. We are happy to recall that the father of social legislation in Canada-and this can be said without fear of contradiction-is none other than the former leader of the Liberal party, the late prime minister, Mr. William Lyon Mackenzie King. Many days have passed since that great humanitarian, that great economist, who became a great statesman, wrote, in 1909 I believe, a book entitled "Industry and Humanity." In it he outlined a program of social legislation an important part of which can now be found in our statute books. In fact a former Liberal government introduced the first social legislation years ago and the Liberal administration has been fulfilling that program to this day as is evidenced by unemployment insurance, old age pensions, pensions for the blind and family allowances.
Among other incidents, I remember one which took place some twenty years ago when old age pensions had been brought in in the province of Quebec. An old chap came to my house one day and asked to speak to me privately. I ushered him into my office and he told me, in his own words, that he
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wished to show me a few bits of paper he had received in order to find out whether they were of any value. These slips of paper happened to be two old age pension cheques. He could hardly believe his own eyes. This man who, after a full, active and useful life, was unable to look after his own needs, received his old age pension.
Well, in my opinion, we have been enjoying for many years the social services which were inaugurated by the present administration; we are proud of the government and we know it will continue its good work. In the resolution introduced today, the hon. member from Terrebonne expresses the feelings of the whole population with regard to those unfortunate people, and he will evidently receive the support of everyone in this house.
We have reason, however, to ask ourselves whether this is the proper time, when we are faced with an emergency, when we have to meet extraordinary expenditures which many, even among our opponents, look upon as exorbitant.
We may justifiably ask ourselves whether the time has really come to adopt such legislation, since there is a desire to grant a pension to elderly people of seventy or more, without a means test. That is the proposal which was submitted to the provinces by the federal government as early as 1945. There is another proposal, which, if implemented^ would have us give old age pensions at 65. We all remember that in 1945, the federal government offered the provinces to pay one hundred per cent of the costs of pensions for people over seventy, and half the cost of pensions to people aged sixty-five. That was six years ago and unfortunately we have made no progress since. We hope that, with the co-operation of the provinces, we may soon be able to give a pension to those of our people who are sixty-five.
But there are also the disabled persons, who have a claim upon our immediate attention.
Here I want to speak in praise of the present Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin). I believe that often, in the face of many requests that are submitted to the government, we forget what has been done by the young, active and tenacious Minister of National Health and Welfare. I am glad to see him in his seat at this time. After listening to the speeches made this afternoon, I feel sure he will give particular attention to this request, which seems to meet with general approval, and that he will submit a bill on this matter as soon as possible.

Social Security
We can be sure of the understanding, the zeal and the sympathy of the Minister of National Health and Welfare, since he himself, as a few at least know, has suffered from poliomyelitis-to which reference was made this afternoon-as did also one of his sons. I therefore earnestly hope that the unanimous wish of the house and of the people of Canada will soon come true by means of proper legislation.
It has been mentioned that a survey is under way to determine exactly how many persons would benefit from such legislation. This is proof of common sense. The government being responsible to the people for the public funds and their administration, could it embark on this venture without considering what the cost would be? It is perhaps a bit premature to ask the government to make a decision now on this matter, when the situation of invalids in Canada is presently under survey.
I do not wish to detain the house any further. In conclusion, I wish to say to the hon. minister and to the government that we rely upon them, that we have confidence in them. We ask them to do their utmost to help those poor invalids. And your petitioners will ever pray.
(Text):


Mr. J. S. Sinnott (Springfield):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to concur in everything that has been said so far. I think great credit should be given to the hon. member for Terrebonne (Mr. Bertrand) for his steady insistence that this form of help should be afforded. I believe that at the present time we have in the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) one of the most sincere men that the Liberal government has ever had. I know that he cannot help but be impressed by what has been said from all sides of the house, namely, that this situation is one that cannot be tolerated any longer. The parliamentary assistant, who was just appointed a short time ago, is a man who has served for a long time in a medical capacity. I am sure he will be of great assistance to the Minister of National Health and Welfare in carrying out the intent of the resolution on today's order paper.
In my capacity as reeve of a municipality for almost ten years I have been somewhat closer to these social cases than in my capacity as a member of parliament. I have had occasion to see these cases for a long time. I should like to draw the attention of the house to one case in particular, a girl stricken with infantile paralysis who has been crippled

for a long period of years. She has not been able to earn one cent for her own livelihood and has been dependent on her mother and father for a number of years. She has now moved into the city of Winnipeg but is still the responsibility of the municipality which I represent. Up to the present time it has cost the municipality somewhere in the neighbourhood of $6,000 for this one case. We have another case of a boy who fell in his infancy and broke his back. His mother and father care for him, and the municipality is giving him a limited amount of aid at the present time.	.
As I said in the throne speech debate, assistance should be given to such cases. Not only for the municipality which I represent, which has to pay in the neighbourhood of $5,000 a year for these cases, but for all municipalities throughout Canada such care has been quite a drain on their funds, and their only means of securing revenue is by taxing the land. Educational facilities are costing much more now than previously. When we drew our budget this year I noticed that the school taxes of the municipality have increased by almost $11,000 for that one small municipality. If we are to keep on providing for these social cases as well as all these other things it will be beyond the ability of the municipalities to do so.
Therefore we are looking to the federal government for help. I believe another man of great ability has recently been appointed leader of the Liberal party in Ontario. I refer to the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Thomson). I am sure that those of you who have read the newspapers of late will have learned something of the foresight and vision he has concerning cases such as are covered in the resolution before us today.


Mr. Graydon:: Don't link him with disability insurance.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: When we want to link anybody with disability it will be the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon). The hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) has rightly said today that if we can find money for war purposes, if we can find money for charitable purposes to assist the people of undernourished countries, surely we have the ability to find the money to take care of those of our people who are not able to take care of themselves.


Mr. Ross (Souris):: Let us vote on it.


John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott: It is going to cost a little money. There are about 147,000 such cases throughout Canada. At $40 a month it will mean some $5,800,000 a month or between $60 million and $70 million a year. When we can prepare for war to the extent of $5 billion, surely the capable parliamentary assistant

to the Minister of Finance can find between $60 million and $70 million somewhere to take care of these unfortunate people. I think I have said practically all I wish to say at the present time. In view of the fact that so many have already voiced their opinions that such help should be forthcoming at the earliest opportunity, I wish to urge this matter upon the minister and his parliamentary assistant. Knowing their ability, I am sure that help will be forthcoming for many of these unfortunate people in the very near future.


Mr. Raymond Bruneau (Prescott):: Mr. Speaker, I shall not be more than five minutes so that there will be an opportunity to call a vote. I will support to my utmost the resolution now before the house, namely, that the government should during the present session take into consideration the advisability of including in their social security program a system of allowances to every person without any sufficient income or means of support, who, by reason of an injury, accident, congenital infirmity or incurable disease, is at a disadvantage in seeking or obtaining employment, or incapable of providing for his subsistence, and whose age prevents him from benefiting by the social security legislation now in force. Many such sad cases have been brought to my attention, where for years people have been left helpless and forced to rely upon their own resources, which for the most part were nil. They were human beings like ourselves, left to their miseries, but unlike ourselves incapable of providing their own subsistence and already too handicapped to do so. They had no silver lining to look forward to, and were left to mourn their hopeless existence.
A person so physically handicapped finds it impossible to even seek employment, and if he does he is often brutally informed that he is not suitable for any job. I know of people so disabled that they find it almost impossible to walk, or to seek employment for which already they are sadly handicapped. There are also those whose age prevents them from benefiting by the social security legislation now in force, because they have not reached the age of seventy which would permit them to come under the Old Age Pensions Act but already are too old to continue their employment. Invalids without income or means of support, whose disability puts them at a disadvantage in seeking or obtaining employment, are incapable of providing for themselves and almost inevitably are left to get along on a meagre fifteen dollars a month or so from their municipal government, when they are lucky enough to receive such a ridiculous allotment
Social Security
as a means of subsistence. It is most embarrassing to a member of parliament to have to interview such sad cases and be obliged to inform them that at present there is no legislation enabling us to help them in any way, but that a resolution to this effect is under study in the Commons. Then we have to inform them it is our sincere hope that a bill will be enacted which will enable us to be of assistance to them. As for our old people, as I have stated already in the debate on the address in 'reply to the speech from the throne, let us make it possible for those who have attained the twilight of life to have a little more happiness. In preparing the coming budget let us not forget the helpless, the handicapped and the aged, and let us do our utmost to see that those less fortunate people share in the social security program through a system of allowances. In doing so let us remember the beautiful words of Shakespeare's immortal "Merchant of Venice":
The quality of mercy is not strain'd.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice bless'd:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.


Mr. Paul E. Cote (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, I submit respectfully that this debate should not be allowed to come to an end before a case has been made for what has been achieved already under this or other governments in the way of relieving the handicapped, the disabled, or those otherwise prevented from competing in the labour market. In my opinion the way the resolution is drafted-in good faith, I am quite sure, knowing the mover as I do-it casts a certain amount of blame on the government by requesting immediate consideration, or consideration during the present session, of the advisability of including, and so forth.
As parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Labour it is my duty to bring to the attention of this house what has been done by the department in the relief of the disabled and the rehabilitation of those handicapped, and placing them on the labour market in a position to get and hold jobs. I mention more particularly the special section under the national employment service called the special placement section. At the present time this service has officers stationed in 32 of the 186 offices of the unemployment insurance commission and the national employment service across the country. These officers have found jobs for 81,731 handicapped persons in the past six years. In 1947, the peak year, placements totalled 14,844, and just last year 10,970 handicapped people were successfully placed in employment. When

Social Security
my hon. friend first moved this resolution, in 1946, I had the privilege of participating in the debate, and I should like to recall the stand I took at that time.


Mr. Argue:: Did you talk out the motion
at that time, too?


Paul-Émile Côté: If my hon. friend would be fair he would recognize what has been done by the government or what is in the process of being done. Does he know that on February 1, 2 and 3 there was a conference in Toronto the purpose of which was to co-ordinate and integrate the various services actually in existence at municipal, provincial and federal levels for the relief of the handicapped? Not much has been said about that this afternoon, but this is a start in a matter where the primary responsibility rests with the provincial authorities. It is not by an act of this parliament that such a project can be launched with chances of success. I believe the conference that took place last month will do more to meet what is intended by this resolution than any resolution that could be passed this afternoon. No relief can be given distressed people in this category except in co-operation with the province. The federal Department of Labour
have done what they could within their own sphere, as I mentioned a few moments ago. Other things can be done; and the department, in co-operation with the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of National Health and Welfare, can surely work out a formula which can be implemented in co-operation with the other authorities in such a way as to largely meet the views of the mover of this resolution.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: Order. I must inform the hon. member that it is six o'clock.


Some hon. Members:: Question.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Tomorrow we will
continue the consideration of Bill No. 77, respecting the department of defence production; Bill No. 5, to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act, 1935; the resolution in the name of the Minister of Finance respecting the Foreign Exchange Control Act; and Bill No. 79, respecting Indians.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.