1951-06-28

Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Defence Production):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of personal privilege. On Tuesday last, during my absence from Ottawa, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) made certain statements on the radio, and on Wednesday a debate occurred in this house in which my name was mentioned. This same matter had been raised in the house some time ago. I made a very short statement then, but I think the house is entitled to a more complete statement at this time. I might add that I make this statement on my responsibility as a member of parliament and as a member of this government.
The paragraph to which I refer in the broadcast-this purports to be the script of that broadcast-reads:
We found out last week after considerable effort that Mr. Howe has arranged government contracts with his own family company, C. D. Howe Company Limited, which will give that company more than five hundred thousand dollars in fees. Those contracts were secretly arranged without tender and without competition.
I have stated in the house that I have had no connection with C. D. Howe Company Limited since 1935. The circumstances then were that I was asked to contest a seat in parliament; Mr. Mackenzie King pressed me to accept the nomination, and I told him I would do so if I could divest myself of my interest in C. D. Howe Company Limited. At that time I owned all the shares of the company. I called in the man 1 thought was capable of carrying on the work of the company, and talked over the matter with him. I may say it is not easy for a man to divest himself of an association that has continued for twenty years. I had gathered together a very competent staff, many of whom I had brought to Port Arthur, and many of whom had homes there. I also had a responsibility to a number of my clients, some in Canada and a few outside Canada, in that we were custodians of the plans of the various structures we had designed for them and it was our duty to keep those plans and calculations available for their use.
In any case I decided that I could not divest myself of the company unless I could arrange for the company to continue. I talked the matter over with this man, one of my senior engineers, and he thought he could carry on if he could use the company name. He said he would not undertake to carry on if he had to start afresh and operate the company under another name. I was rather reluctant to make that arrangement; however, I thought any personal objections I might have should be overlooked in the overriding interest of keeping the company in operation, and it was agreed that the name could be used. It was decided to form a group of competent men to take over the shares of the company. I sold all the shares in the company to that group. I sold them at a nominal price which represented the cash which was invested in the company at that moment. No one in that group had any connection with the Howe family; they were neither members of the family nor related in any way, directly or indirectly, to any member of the Howe family.
That arrangement was completed before nomination day in 1935. I allowed myself to be nominated knowing I was free from any connection with C. D. Howe Company Limited. None of us has enough foresight, but if I had known what was to happen subsequently I think I would not have allowed my name to be used. I am sure the company would not have wanted to use that name, because of the embarrassment it has caused the company subsequently.
I have given no business whatever to C. D. Howe Company, outside of the business that must flow to it anyway. They are the only firm in Canada that specializes in grain elevator work. They have been doing the work of the board of grain commissioners since the inception of the board. I noticed that in the years 1930 to 1935 the company collected $89,000 in fees for work performed for the board of grain commissioners. The company has continued to do work for the board of grain commissioners, even when that board has been my responsibility, as it has been for the last two or three years. I looked over the list of recent jobs, and they each represented work carrying a fee of less than $6,000, although in the aggregate the fees over the last sixteen years, while less than those collected in the five years of the Bennett regime, were still a substantial sum.

C. D. Howe Company Limited
However, during world war II, every engineering company of any standing had government contracts, with the one exception of C. D. Howe Company. The firm did not ask me for participation in government war contracts, nor did I call on the firm for work of that kind. That was one of the penalties that we both paid, and I suggest the government paid, in a way, from the fact the firm carries my name.
Now, I come to the family side. I might say I do not like to discuss my family in this House of Commons. I have always tried to separate my family affairs from public life. Members may have noticed that my wife does not appear on the political platform, and that my family are not active politically. However, in 1945 Captain Stedman returned from overseas. He came back, with a fine war record and a Military Cross, to resume his studies in the university of Toronto. He completed an engineering course which was interrupted by the war. While he was in the university of Toronto, he married my daughter. When he took his degree in mechanical engineering in 1947 he applied to the C. D. Howe Company Limited fox work. I might say it has been the practice of the company, ever since I started it, to take a few graduates each year from Canadian universities. In fact, practically all the engineers in the company came from that source. Stedman applied for work with the company. I do not know why. Perhaps my daughter liked the idea of going back to Port Arthur where she was born and brought up. His application was accepted, and he joined the firm at the usual beginner's salary. That was in 1947, four years ago.
In 1948 my youngest son graduated from McGill as a civil engineer. He also applied to the C. D. Howe Company for a job, perhaps for the same reason. His application was accepted and he went to work with the C. D. Howe Company Limited at the usual starting salary. These men are still with the firm. I suppose the firm has at least fifty engineers, and some of them have seniority of at least twenty-five or thirty years. These boys have seniority in the firm consistent with their length of service with the firm. If that makes the C. D. Howe Company Limited a family company, my idea of a family company and that of the leader of the opposition are vastly different. That is the association of the family with the C. D. Howe Company Limited.
Certain statements were made in the debate that perhaps should receive comment. The leader of the opposition said he used the term "family company" advisedly, "because my son and son-in-law are actively engaged in

the company", and he said he understood that a son and son-in-law are members of the family. Then he mentioned the fact that when the matter was brought up in the house originally he talked of nepotism. Well, I got that reference, but it took a little time to penetrate. By that time the debate had moved on to something else. At the time I thought he was referring to another son of mine, William Howe. I might say that the name "William Howe" has been used in every French constituency in which a Conservative member has been the speaker, and has been freely used in the French language press. I might as well tell you about my son William Howe.
In 1940 my son William Howe, at the age of seventeen, enlisted as a midshipman in the Canadian navy. He has served continuously in the navy since that day, and is still serving in the Canadian navy. He has never at any time had any association or interest in the firm of C. D. Howe Company Limited.
Just to make the story complete, I have two other daughters whom I have not mentioned. One of them is married and lives in Montreal, and the other is a war widow living in Halifax. Neither of them has ever had any association with or interest in the firm of C. D. Howe Company Limited.
Now, we come to the two contracts that have been mentioned here. One was the contract for the Department of Public Works to design and supervise the construction of a dock at Seven Islands. I can say quite honestly that I never knew the company had that contract until after the agreement had been signed. I asked the deputy minister of public works why he gave the contract to the company, and he said the reason was that the company had a contract from a private firm to build a dock at Seven Islands, and so were working in that locality. For that reason he thought they were the logical firm to undertake the work. Then we have the contract with the national research council for the atomic pile at Chalk River. I knew about that contract. Dr. Mackenzie, president of the council, came to me and said he would like to give the work at Chalk River to the C. D. Howe Company Limited. I asked him why. He said that he had tried to place it with Defence Industries Limited, the firm that designed the original pile, but they had so much work in hand on projects of their own that they were unable to take the work. I said, "Who else is in the field?" He said, "We know of no Canadian engineering firm that has the experience in the structural, mechanical and electrical branches of engineering that are required on this job other than C. D.

Howe Company Limited." I said, "Why do you ask me about it? The national research council is an autonomous body; its charter provides that it shall place its own contracts, and no reference to the government is necessary. It has not been your practice to refer contracts to the government." He said, "Just for one reason, and that is that the firm bears your name. I shall not do it if it is going to be embarrassing to you." I said, "It is embarrassing, but is that the most important consideration? What will you do if you cannot get C. D. Howe Company Limited?" He said, "We shall have to go to the United States and get our engineering there." I thought the matter over and I said, "You need not worry about embarrassing C. D. Howe. I will take care of that. If the right thing to do is to give this job to the C. D. Howe Company Limited, give it to them." That is the last I heard of the matter, and the job was duly awarded.
Either the radio statement or the statement in the house mentioned that for these two jobs the company will receive fees of $500,000. I looked that up and found that the fee for the Chalk River pile is 1-07 per cent of $20 million, which is the agreed cost stated in the contract. This would give the company a little over $200,000. I do not know how big the dock job at Seven Islands is, but I suppose the fee on that would be five per cent gross, from which expenses have to be paid by the firm. That might be five per cent of $600,000, and if that is the amount, the fee would be $30,000. I would therefore judge that the statement that fees were $500,000 for those two jobs is at least double the amount represented by the actual situation.
That is the story. I think I have given all the facts. If the leader of the opposition wishes to carry the matter further, I think he should adopt the practice that has been standard in this parliament and in every British parliament for many years past, namely, that he should rise in his place, make a charge, and stake his seat on his ability to prove the charge. If he is willing to do that, it is immaterial to me whether the charge is investigated by the public accounts committee, by a special committee of this house, or by a royal commission. I would point out to him that I am staking my seat in parliament on the accuracy of the statement I have just made to this House of Commons.
This is not the first time that smear tactics have been used by the leader of the opposition against myself. Hon. members will recall the broadcast made in the last federal election campaign in which he accused me of
C. D. Howe Company Limited taking graft from Canadair, and also of having other improper relations with that company. His charge was denied by every director of Canadair individually and publicly; and incidentally some of the directors were his own supporters. Later the Canadair transaction was investigated by the public accounts committee of this house. The leader of the opposition himself was a member of that public accounts committee at the time. The public accounts committee brought in a unanimous report to this house. That report contained no criticism of the transaction so far as the government's interest was concerned. I suggest to hon. members that this is a further smear tactic against myself. While I do not worry too much about it, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that I was entitled to make this statement of the position.


Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I might have had a good deal of sympathy with the position of the minister in what he said had he not closed his remarks in the way that he did.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


George Alexander Drew: May I say at the outset that his statement that I charged him with taking graft from Canadair is a complete and unqualified falsehood, and he knows it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: On a question of personal privilege, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I will endeavour to obtain a transcript of the national broadcast to which I refer, made by the leader of the opposition from Port Arthur, in which he made the charge, and I will leave it to the house to decide whether or not a charge was made.


George Alexander Drew: I repeat the statement exactly as I said it. I withdraw no statement that I made at that time. But when the Minister of Defence Production winds up with a repetition of loose charges of smear tactics which we heard in this house yesterday,-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Alexander Drew: -then it does become-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I think the leader of the opposition should be heard.


An hon. Member:: Let him talk.


George Alexander Drew: As I was saying, it becomes necessary to deal with what has been said and to point out at the very outset that the Minister of Defence Production has himself brought this matter before the house. When he talks about the necessity for inquiry, may
4810	HOUSE OF
C. D. Howe Company Limited I point out that there is no such necessity, because he has confirmed every fact that I stated,-


Mr. McCann:: You are backing up now.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


George Alexander Drew: -except for one thing, and that is that he now says that the cost of the Chalk River project is $20 million.


Mr. Mcllraiih:: He did not say anything of the kind.


George Alexander Drew: I have in my hands a release headed:
Atomic energy control board, Ottawa.
For release after 8 a.m. (E.S.T.) Tuesday, 2nd January, 1951.
Every hon. member of this house knows the extent to which the Minister of Defence Production has exercised full control over atomic matters, and has at no time in any way questioned the fact that he was exercising that measure of control.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, on another question of privilege, in connection with the assertion that I made a statement about the cost of the work, I will now read the contract between the C. D. Howe Company Limited and the national research council. I am not sure whether it has been tabled in this house, but I think it has. In case it has not, however, I shall be glad to table it. It reads as follows:
Fee
The council agrees to pay to the consulting engineer for the services a fee calculated at the rate of 1-7/100 per centum on twenty million dollars ($20,000,000) which last-mentioned sum has been accepted by the council and the consulting engineer as a proper estimate of the cost of the work in relation to which the services are to be performed and on which the fee payable to the consulting engineer is to be based. The said sum ($20 million) does not include the cost of heavy water or uranium to be provided for the plant.


George Alexander Drew: What is the date of that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is a contract which is dated the first day of January, 1951.


George Alexander Drew: That contract was dated the first day of January, 1951; and the statement issued by the government on the second day of January closes as follows:
Estimates will be placed before parliament at its next session to cover the cost of this new pile, which is expected to be approximately $30 million.


George James McIlraith: That is right.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is including the uranium and heavy water. I did not say what the cost would be. I said that the fee of the consulting engineer was based on $20 million, and that is written into the contract.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker-


An hon. Member:: Apologize.


George Alexander Drew: That was a statement issued by the atomic energy control board on January 2. In view of the fact that those statements are distributed to members of this house, I should think that the members of this house would have a right to rely on their accuracy.


An hon. Member:: You do not understand them.


Mr. Abbott:: Make another broadcast.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: Table some other documents that we have not seen.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Time to make another broadcast.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, the figures that were included in this total of $500,000 are made up as follows. The total fees are those that have been paid and will be paid.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is not what you said in the broadcast.


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is better in the broadcast than in the house.


George Alexander Drew: It must be a relief for the Minister of Finance to make these jocular interjections after what the people of Canada said about him last Monday.


Douglas Charles Abbott: It is never a relief to listen to the leader of the opposition. It is entertainment, but not relief.


Mr. Mutch:: We are having a little bit of trouble in following him.


George Alexander Drew: The figures are made up as follows: Amounts already paid: defence production assistance, Dominion Foundries and Steel Limited, $840.00; Sept lies, wharf, Quebec, $8,186.40; Chalk River reactor, $26,725.42; board of grain commissioners, $43,314.64; national harbours board, $81,542.39, making a total paid of $160,608.85. The amounts to be paid on the basis of percentages stated in relation to the stated amounts of the contracts: Sept lies, still to be paid, $41,813.60; Chalk River reactor, $294,274.58; board of grain commissioners, $208.00; national harbours board, $17,000, making a total of $353,296.18, or a grand total of $513,905.03; and it was to that figure that I referred.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce has quite clearly indicated the association of his family with the company, and since he has brought that up, then he has established exactly what was said.


Some hon. Members:: No.


George Alexander Drew: In so far as the Seven Islands job is concerned, when the Seven Islands job was undertaken the C. D. Howe Company Limited opened offices at 1421 Atwater street in Montreal, which was formerly the office of War Assets Corporation. Then I find that in the Advertising Journal of January, 1951, there is this advertisement:
Wanted-20 graduate engineers and draftsmen, mechanical, civil and electrical for projects in Ontario and Quebec by C. D. Howe Limited, 1421 Atwater street, Montreal, Quebec.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce is well aware that the member of his family in whom he has such confidence-and this is not in question-is pretty actively associated with a responsible position with that office that has been opened up in Montreal. These are the contracts that form the substantial basis of the work that is now being done by this company.
When the question is raised about "smear" tactics-and my remarks in this respect apply with equal force to the Prime Minister- before talking about smear tactics it is time that the government cleaned up this improper situation, and made it clear that no further contracts of this kind will be awarded. And that does not apply only to members of families, but also to friends, political and otherwise; because there has been a long established principle in regard to matters of this kind which is of the utmost importance at any time, but which assumes added importance when under any emergency or so-called emergency situation, the government, or any minister of the government, is placed in the position where he can exercise wide powers, not under the continuing supervision of parliament, as a result of the emergency powers conferred upon him. That is the situation in which the Minister of Defence Production is placed today.
The members of this house, by a majority vote, imposed upon the Minister of Defence Production the responsibility for the supervision of contracts running into hundreds of millions of dollars, which, by the very nature of those contracts, are not brought before this house for discussion. At the present time, as was pointed out, there are contracts, for instance, being awarded across Canada for the construction of radar stations involving very large expenditures. In the very nature of things those stations are not discussed in detail here in this house. I am not suggesting they should be; but the very fact that operations of that kind, and other operations of a similar nature-and many of those operations are carried out at the request of the Department of National Defence by the Department of Defence Production-cannot be discussed, having regard to the nature
C. D. Howe Company Limited of their activities, does impose a special obligation upon the Minister of Defence Production to leave no doubt that there shall be no contracts awarded which in any way would offend the strict and unwritten rule that there shall be no advantage to any member of a family or friend of any member of the government in connection with contracts awarded in that way.
That principle has been so deeply embedded in the practices of our British parliamentary system that the time has long since passed when it was necessary to restate them, but it obviously is. They were as clearly stated as I have found them anywhere by Mr. Asquith at the time of the famous Marconi scandal in Britain, and I should like to quote from what he said about that situation. I am reading now from Mr. Asquith's own report of what took place at that time, and his enunciation of the principles which had been broadly accepted in regard to matters of this kind. He said this:
I took the opportunity to formulate rules, which I divided into two categories of rules of obligations and rules of prudence.
The first, of course, and the most obvious, is that (1) ministers ought not to enter into any transaction whereby their private pecuniary interests might, even conceivably, come into conflict with their public duty. There is no dispute about that. Again (2) no minister is justified, under any circumstances, in using official information, information that has come to him as a minister, for his own private profit or for that of his friends. Further (3), no minister ought to allow or put himself in a position to be tempted to use his official influence in support of any scheme, or in furtherance of any contract, in regard to which he has an undisclosed private interest. That again is beyond dispute. Again (4), no minister ought to accept from persons who are in negotiation with or seeking to enter into contractual or proprietary or pecuniary relations with the state, any kind of favour. That, I think, is also beyond dispute.
I will add a further proposition, which I am not sure has been completely formulated, though it has no doubt been adumbrated in the course of these debates, and that is that (5) ministers should scrupulously avoid speculative investments in securities as to which, from their position and their special means of early or confidential information, they have, or may have, an advantage over other people in anticipating market changes.
These, Mr. Speaker, were what Mr. Asquith described as rules of obligation and rules of prudence.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Have you any quotations from Mr. Duplessis?


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, we are dealing
with a subject which the Minister of Defence Production has properly regarded as an important one, and it is not assisted by the jocular and childish remarks of the Minister of Finance as to whether I have any quotations from Mr. Duplessis.


Mr. Maltais:: He knows a lot about it.

C. D. Howe Company Limited


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, it is regrettable
that Hansard does not record the fact that the Minister of Finance and a great many of his supporters are regarding this as a hilarious subject in which they can inject very silly comments which really indicate that they do not recognize the seriousness of this subject.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Not the subject; just the
speech.


George Alexander Drew: I am continuing to quote what Mr. Asquith said at that time-


Some hon. Members:: Dispense.


George Alexander Drew: The laughter again of hon.
members apparently shows that they do not want to be reminded that there are principles which have applied to matters of this kind.


An hon. Member:: Do you know?


George Alexander Drew: They might well go out if they are not prepared to listen, because I think there are those who do want to hear.


Mr. Fournier (Maisonneuve-Rosemont):: Humbug.


George Alexander Drew: I remember very distinctly
what happened to a famous public man in England who used that expression, and I think the same thing will happen at the next general election to the hon. member who has just used it.


Mr. Maclnnis:: May I rise to a point of
order? The house listened with, I think, complete silence, and I think with relief, to the statement made by the Minister of Defence Production. Now I think the leader of the opposition is entitled to the same kind of hearing, whether we like what he says or not. That is all. I think he should be heard -but I am not sure that he is quite in order now.


George Alexander Drew: Well, Mr. Speaker, since the
admonition in regard to order has not come from the expert on rules of the C.C.F. party, I shall continue.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That will hold you, Angus.


Mr. Speaker:: May I interject by saying
that I think the leader of the opposition is in order, under the circumstances.


An hon. Member:: On division.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I am continuing
to quote from what Mr. Asquith said at that time:
I think that in addition to those rules, which I have described as rules of obligation-because it seems to me that they have an ethical value and sanction, as well as being based on grounds of expediency and policy-there are, or there certainly ought to be, rules of prudence specially applicable to ministers and to persons in positions of official
[Mr. Maltais.l
responsibility, rules which perhaps never have been formulated, and which it would be very difficult to formulate in precise or universal terms. One of those rules is that in these matters such persons should carefully avoid all transactions which can give colour or countenance to the belief that they are doing anything which the rules of obligation forbid.
I have read this quotation because, so far as I can ascertain, that was the last time it became necessary, either in the House of Commons at Westminster or in the House of Commons here, to state in such clear and explicit terms the rules of prudence and the rules of obligation which have come down by trial and error, with centuries of precedent, under our type of parliamentary system.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce has indicated that if he had thought there might be the association between himself and the government and the public that has happened, then he might have questioned the wisdom of continuing the use of that name. That is exactly the point before us.
When a minister has the immense power that the Minister of Trade and Commerce has, powers conferred upon him because it was stated that these wider powers would be necessary so that the government could deal with price controls and other controls -when a minister has these wide powers, then that minister surely will not suggest that the name C. D. Howe Company Limited has not some significance beyond that of an ordinary company name.
In any event at a time like this, when in the very nature of things hundreds of millions of dollars of the taxpayers' money are to be spent under the full and unrestrained authority of the Minister of Defence Production, in the preparation of those defence measures which were under discussion in the house yesterday, then there not only should be nothing done which can be open directly to criticism, but there should be nothing done that is open even to indirect criticism, or that gives any colour to the possibility that members of the House of Commons have not reason to repose full confidence in that minister in regard to the expenditure of the enormous sums we are called upon to approve.
Now, the minister himself has stated the relationship of his own family to this company. There is one way in which he could avoid any criticism, and that is to make sure that this company does not retain a name which has a very special significance at this time, and also that no contracts are awarded -and particularly in the circumstances under which these contracts were awarded-in a way that leaves every other contract open to question in so far as that department is concerned.

It is not only government money that is being spent; it is hundreds of millions, billions, of dollars that axe being spent by private companies that must look to the Minister of Defence Production for priority and otherwise. Now, there is no member in this House of Commons who does not know that a nod to any of those private companies, in regard to a company that bears the name of the minister with these immense powers, would be most suggestive and decisive as to what should be done.
It is not necessary to do more than point this out, and to ask the Prime Minister to end the possibility of anything of this kind and to accept these rigid but unwritten rules of obligation and prudence which have been so deeply embedded in our tradition. Unless that is done, then there is only one thing to be said, and that is that from a guilty conscience the charge of "smear" is being made by those whose shameless behaviour opens them to condemnation from every part of this country.


Mr. St. Laurent:: Mr. Speaker, may I,
through you, ask the leader of the opposition if we are to take this merely as a more or less successful attempt to retire behind a smoke screen, or if he does in a manly way take the responsibility of asserting any charge whatsoever on the floor of this house.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I do not take
very kindly to the inference by the Prime Minister that I am not acting with proper courage, but I do not think that my remarks indicate that I am as cowardly as the Prime Minister is in acting in the way he has in regard to a minister with the powers that this minister has.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I will ask
the hon. member to withdraw the word "cowardly".


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, the words used
by the Prime Minister have only one inference, and I will withdraw when the Prime Minister withdraws his remarks.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I insist
upon my rights to ask you to have the leader of the opposition withdraw the unparliamentary word he has used.


Mr. Speaker:: Without doubt, the word
"cowardly" is unparliamentary.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, when the Prime
Minister has withdrawn the word "smear"-


Some hon. Members:: No, no.


George Alexander Drew: Very well. Mr. Speaker, I
repeat that I ask the Prime Minister at the same time to withdraw the statement as to "smear" and "lack of courage".
C. D. Howe Company Limited


Mr. Speaker:: Order. Yesterday the word
"smear" was used several times. I did not ask that it be withdrawn-in fact the leader of the opposition did not ask that it be withdrawn. I realize and can understand that there is considerable heat in this debate, but there is a limit to which we can allow language to be used. I think the word "cowardly" is going just a little too far, and I would ask the leader of the opposition to withdraw it.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, the words "lack
of courage" are the same as "cowardly"; and I will have to say that I shall not withdraw, but I will leave the chamber unless you-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Alexander Drew: Are you prepared to ask for
a withdrawal of the words "lack of courage"?


Douglas Charles Abbott: It was not used.


Mr. Fraser:: Yes, it was.


Mr. Speaker:: If the words "lack of courage" were used, they also must be withdrawn.
I do not recall that they were used. I do not think one should attribute lack of courage to any hon. member. If the words were used, they were not brought to my attention at the time. I will leave it to hon. gentlemen, and if the words were used I would ask that they be withdrawn.


An hon. Member:: They were.


An hon. Member:: Withdraw.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, there is no rule
for one member and not for another.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The word "cowardly" was used, and that word should be withdrawn. If the hon. member was accused of lack of courage, if those words were used, I ask the hon. member who used the words to withdraw them.


An hon. Member:: The Prime Minister.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I do not think I did. The
report can be scrutinized. I asked the hon. member if he was going to take the manly course of maintaining charges, and I am still waiting for an answer.


Mr. Speaker:: My ruling is that the word
"cowardly" was used, and it should be withdrawn.


An hon. Member:: It was used.


Mr. Speaker:: If the hon. member was
accused of a lack of courage, that must be withdrawn. I do not know whether he was. If so, I order that it be withdrawn. Likewise I order that the word "cowardly" be withdrawn.
4814	HOUSE OF
C. D. Howe Company Limited


An hon. Member:: Withdraw.


An hon. Member:: Retract.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Both stand up.


George Alexander Drew: I indicated my willingness to
withdraw, provided that the Prime Minister withdraw the very clear implication of his remarks, but he either withdraws them-they were very clearly heard-or I do not. There was no possibility to demand a withdrawal, because I rose immediately he used those words and said that unless he was prepared to do these things, then I stated that I thought it was a cowardly course that he was following. The qualification was there, and I leave those remarks there. I ask the Prime Minister, if he has the frankness which he talks about, not to try to dodge away from the clear implication of his words and to join with me in withdrawing those remarks.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I made no charge against the hon. gentleman of lack of courage. I asked if he would or would not take the manly course of making a charge on the floor of this house. If there is any implication from his conduct, that is not my fault.


Mr. Coldwell:: It seems to me that the
best way to settle this is by getting a copy of the Hansard typescript.


John George Diefenbaker: After all, this is parliament.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


John George Diefenbaker: Sometimes I wonder
whether it is. I want to make a suggestion-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: I must insist on the hon.
gentleman being heard. I cannot make my ruling if I do not hear what is being said.


John George Diefenbaker: Heated words were used; "smear" was used by members on the other side, and that is scarcely a parliamentary word. The Prime Minister is the first citizen and the leader of this house. Let us not continue a scene like this. Let the Prime Minister say "I withdraw" and the leader of the opposition-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Mr. Speaker:: The situation is quite clear.
If I understood him correctly, the Prime Minister stated that he did not accuse the leader of the opposition of cowardice.


An hon. Member:: He said "lack of
courage".


Mr. Speaker:: Or of lacking in courage.


An hon. Member:: He did.


Mr. Speaker:: The Prime Minister has
stated that he did not make that accusation. If he did not make that accusation, it is impossible for him to withdraw it.


An hon. Member:: He did make it.


Mr. Speaker:: The question remains as to the word "cowardly", and I ask the leader of the opposition to withdraw the word "cowardly". I think the situation is quite clear.


Mr. Harkness:: I do not think the situation is clear.


An hon. Member:: Sit down.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I and all the people around here heard the Prime Minister use the words "lack of courage."


Some hon. Members:: No.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: That can be very easily cleared up. I do not think I did say that, and I think it can be established by the report of Hansard which has taken down just what was said. I think it would be convenient to get a transcript of what was said, and if it is found from the transcript that those words are there, I will withdraw them; but I do not believe they are there.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I shall let Hansard speak for itself, and if the Prime Minister used words-


Some hon. Members:: No, no.


Mr. Graydon:: Please.


George Alexander Drew: If the Prime Minister used words different from those which I heard, and which I think I heard correctly, then obviously my remarks were related to words which were not said. Hansard will speak for itself. If they were not said, then I withdraw what I said in relation to them.


Some hon. Members:: No, no.


George Alexander Drew: Now, Mr. Speaker, in regard to what the Prime Minister saifl, I have said nothing that is open to question. The Minister of Defence Production has indicated quite clearly the status of this company, and the members of his family associated with it, and the contracts it has. There is nothing further. What is already before us shows a type of transaction that should not be permitted to continue. Far from being called upon to repeat what I said, all I do is repeat my demand that the Prime Minister recognize these unwritten rules of prudence and obligation and announce to the house that further action of this kind by the Minister of Defence Production will not be permitted.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, the record of Hansard will show what is the position of the leader of the opposition when he is up against facts.


George Alexander Drew: Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to let the inference of that remark pass. The Prime Minister knows perfectly well that this is part of a general pattern. He knows of the money handed by this government to its friends. He knows of other acts of this kind, and that this had a relation to those other things. At this time, when we are asked to approve by far the largest peacetime budget in our history, he has the highest obligation to remove any possibility of any question being raised about the handling of public funds.



TABLING OF CONTRACT WITH NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL

John George Diefenbaker: should like to direct a request to the Minister of Defence Production. During the course of his statement on privilege this morning he referred to the contract with the C. D. Howe Company in reference to the Chalk River project, and said that he thought it had been tabled. I would ask him to table it. At the same time perhaps he would table the order in council which confirmed the granting of the contract.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Speaker, there is no order in council confirming the granting of the contract. The national research council is a corporation with its own board of governors, and has complete control over the funds placed at its disposal by parliament. Its only connection with the government is that it reports to the government through a committee of the cabinet of which I happen to be chairman.
As to the contract, in pursuance of a request made to me I have just sent it to Hansard to aid the reporters in their transcription. When the contract is returned, if it is understood that it is now tabled, I will see that it goes to the table.



REPORTS OF COMMITTEES

[Stage Direction]
Tenth report of standing committee on banking and commerce.-Mr. Cleaver.
Fourth report of standing committee on public accounts.-Mr. Picard.


Mr. W. G. Weir (Portage-Neepawa):: Mr. Speaker, on June 15 the house directed Your
House of Commons
Honour and others to meet and set up a committee to deal with the revision of the procedure of the House of Commons. I now have the honour to submit the report of that striking committee, as follows:
The special committee appointed to confer with Mr. Speaker and with his assistance to prepare and report a list of members to compose a select committee of the house to consider with Mr. Speaker the procedure of this house for the purpose of suggesting any changes that may be desirable to assure the more expeditious dispatch of public business, recommends that the said select committee be composed, together with Mr. Speaker, of the following members: Messrs. Bradette, Brooks, Fleming, Fournier (Hull), Graydon, Harris (Grey-Bruce), Knowles, MacNaught, Pouliot, Quelch, Weir.
Your committee further recommends that five members will constitute a quorum of the said committee.
If I have unanimous consent I would move that this report be now concurred in.


Gordon Graydon: Would it not be possible for this committee to meet at once, perhaps this afternoon? We have not very much time before this part of the session concludes, we hope, and I think there should be one or two meetings of that committee, or perhaps more, so that at least we would have some plan to consider individually during the recess. Then we could follow the proposal made in the house by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) previously and have our committee meetings start on the second day of the new session. That would give us an opportunity at least to get the work under way, because I think there is some urgency with respect to one or two major changes upon which I believe agreement can be reached and which might be put into operation on an experimental or trial and error basis during the next session. I would ask the hon. member for Portage-Neepawa if it might be possible to get away from the red tape at this stage of the session and hold a meeting, perhaps this afternoon, so that the work could be got under way as soon as possible.


Mr. Jean Francois Pouliot (Temiscouata):: Before the hon. member replies, I appreciate the fact that I will have the honour to be a member of that committee, which will have important work to do, and which will have to see that the privileges of members are not dispensed with. But as we will sit only next session, would it not be best for each member of the committee during the adjournment to read the rules in order to be familiar with them? They might go through the book two or three times during the summer, under the shade. It is a small book. I do not mean Beauchesne's big book; I mean the small book with the standing orders. Then hon.

Ming Sung Industrial Company members would be in a position to discuss the matter with intelligence during the fall session.


William Gilbert Weir: I do not think any purpose would be served in discussing at this time what may or may not be done by this committee. In reply to the hon. member for Peel, however, I would say it seems to me that whatever procedure might be adopted this session would come very largely under the direction and convenience of Mr. Speaker.


Jean-François Pouliot: Hear, hear; well said.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I table herewith parliamentary return No. 129, mover Mr. Diefenbaker, being copies of letters, and so forth, since January 1, 1949, between any department of the government of Canada and any official of the government of Hong Kong relating to exemptions granted to the Ming Sung Industrial Company Limited.
The return just tabled contains the official correspondence between the trade commissioner and the authorities at Hong Kong; that is the manner in which the matter was handled. Subsequently some question was raised in a confidential memorandum from a law officer of the Hong Kong government, in view of the terms of the ordinance of 1899, I think, of Hong Kong with respect to shipping, as to the sufficiency of the exemption granted by the Canadian authorities. In order to remove any doubt about that, at the request of the Canadian government the government of the United Kingdom instructed that exemption from the Hong Kong ordinance be also granted, and that was done. I understand that similar exemptions are in effect with respect to some thirty or more other ships of British registry which are operating out of Hong Kong.


John George Diefenbaker: thank the Prime Minister. I should like to ask how long after the Canadian directive or order was made by the Minister of Transport the governor of Hong Kong passed the necessary order to assure the legality of the operation of the Canadian directive.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The hon. member's question included the words "the necessary order" and I would not like my answer to imply that we regarded it as necessary. It was considered that there might be some doubt as to its sufficiency. I cannot tell the hon. member

from memory the respective dates of the two orders, but I will get them and give him the information.


John George Diefenbaker: Thank you.



CAPITAL COST ALLOWANCES


[Stage Direction]
Righf Hon. C. D. Howe (Minisler of Defence Production): I table herewith order in council P.C. 3237, dated June 26, amending the regulations relating to deferred capital cost allowances.
Before explaining the changes that have been made in the regulations it may be useful for me to give a short summary of experience under the deferred depreciation plan since it was announced in the budget on April 10.
Between April 11 and June 19, 1951, 257 applications for certificates granting exemption from deferment have been received. Of these 63 have been approved, involving capital expenditures of $12-4 million. Certificates of eligibility granted fall into two groups. One group has been approved under subsection 5 of section 1107 of the income tax regulations, on the ground that they were necessary for the execution of a defence contract or subcontract or were for a purpose which contributed to the defence of Canada. Certificates approved under this section numbered 14, involving capital expenditures of $3-9 million. The second group of certificates granted was under subsection 6 of section 1107 of the income tax regulations. These certificates were approved for capital expenditures required by certain basic industries listed in the regulations for the carrying on of their business. A total number of 49 applications were approved, involving capital outlay of $8-5 million. Certificates have been denied for 26 applications involving $3-4 million. The remaining 168 applications are pending, and these include many applications which will probably qualify for the issuance of a certificate under the regulations as amended.
There is no direct way of measuring the results of the plan. We know how many applications have been received, how many certificates have been issued, and how many have been denied. What we do not know is how many plans have been changed because the businessman knew that depreciation would be deferred for four years. I should point out that the authority to grant certificates for current depreciation is limited, and that many contemplated transactions could not possibly qualify. From information available to the government from various lines of business I think it is fair to say that while the

results cannot be measured precisely, they are substantial. The government believes that the plan has contributed in some measure to the recent reduction of inflationary pressures. It has been a useful supplement to other fiscal and monetary measures and credit restrictions.
On February 8, 1951, I advised the house that our surveys showed investment plans of a record total of $4-3 billion for 1951, or a thirteen per cent increase over the $3-8 billion estimated to have been spent in 1950. The investment plans of business and others have now been resurveyed.
Briefly, the mid-year survey of investment intentions suggests that capital outlays contemplated for 1951 as a whole, including actual expenditures made during the early part of the year, may exceed $4-5 billion. This is five per cent higher than anticipated at the beginning of the year, and twenty per cent above 1950. The increase in capital plans as indicated at mid-year over what appeared to be the outlook at the beginning of the year is almost entirely due to higher purchases of machinery and equipment contemplated mainly by industries either directly or indirectly associated with the defence effort. Such industries include principally those engaged in the production of strategic raw materials and large sectors of manufacturing. In construction little change is indicated, even though the amount of new construction work planned for 1951 is $2-7 billion, or about sixteen per cent above 1950.
While the greater emphasis on investment in defence and defence supporting industries is a change in the right direction, the record capital expenditure program contemplated for 1951 emphasizes the importance of businessmen reviewing carefully their investment plans at the present time and postponing all projects that can, in the judgment of industry, be deferred to a later date.
I turn now to the amendments which have been made in the regulations. These are of five kinds:
1.	Exempting properties acquired by inheritance.
2.	Exempting property depreciable when the order first became effective which is later transferred to a related person or corporation; for example, by incorporation of a sole proprietor or partnership.
3.	Making technical changes in the wording of the order, that is, clarifying the description of certain eligible basic industries.
4.	Adding to the eligible list of basic industries those producing basic chemicals, and filaments, fibres and yarns.
5.	Making the purchase of an existing business, including all the depreciable property,
Capital Cost Allowances eligible for a certificate for current depreciation if the assets involved were depreciable property of the vendor on April 10, 1951.
A number of representations have been made that deferment should not apply to properties which were in existence on April 10 and which merely change hands. The problem is exceedingly complex because of the ease with which such a change if it were adopted could be used to circumvent the purpose of the regulations. The further away we move from April 10, 1951, the more difficult the problem would become. Nevertheless there are certain cases which can, the government believes, be handled.
The amendments exempt from deferment properties acquired by bequest or inheritance and those acquired when the taxpayer and the vendor are not dealing at arm's length, that is, mergers, incorporation of partnerships, incorporation of sole proprietorships, etc. This amendment removes one of the main causes of complaint.
In addition, the purchaser of a business, if he acquires all the depreciable property of the business, may apply to the Minister of Trade and Commerce for a certificate entitling him to exemption from deferment. This certificate will relate only to properties which were used by the vendor in his business and were depreciable property of the vendor on April 10, 1951.
The other amendments are of a more technical nature and are in the main selfexplanatory. The principal changes are those extending the list of industries for which certificates may be issued to include the production of basic chemicals for use in primary industry and the production of filament, fibres or yarns. The principle underlying these changes is consistent with the original intent of the order which was to restrict the list in the main to basic industries which provide the materials for fabrication or which provide transportation or power or some vital utility.
There is another phase of the deferred capital cost allowance provisions which several hon. members have raised here in the house and on which the government has received a number of representations. I am referring to capital expenditure commitments made or projects started before April 11, 1951.
The government is not yet in a position to reach a definite decision on this point. Where genuine commitments were made before April 10, 1951, and must be proceeded with a good case for relief can be made. However, the variety of circumstances is extremely broad and requires careful study. I am not yet in a position to say what can or
[Stage Direction]
Questions
should be done. Probably the government will not be able to go as far as some taxpayers would wish; on the other hand it should be possible to work out something that will give a measure of relief where the taxpayers had no option but to carry out commitments made before April 10, 1951.
Finally, as the Minister of Finance said in the house a few days ago, it is the intention to publish periodically in the Canada Gazette a list of certificates issued. The first list will appear shortly.
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinlon):: May I
say to the minister that I think the house will be pleased to hear about these amendments which have been made, and that the question of making provision for commitments entered into prior to April 11 is still under consideration. May I ask the minister when he will be able to table the order in council embodying the changes in the previous order in council?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The changes have been tabled. I tabled them when I started my speech.



QUESTIONS


Mr. Couriemanche:: 1.	Was any construction or repair work done on the Capian river wharf during 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1950?
2.	If so, was the work done by contract or by day labour?
3.	If by contract, what was the total amount paid with respect to each contract, and to whom were such contracts awarded?
4.	Were tenders called for the said contracts?
5.	If by day labour, who were the foremen of such work?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	Yes, during the years 1947, 1948 and 1949.
2.	By day labour.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Answered by No. 2.
5.	Joseph Poirier.



PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND PARKING AREA


Mr. Green:: 1.	What tenders were received for the construction of new customs and immigration buildings and a parking area at Osoyoos, British Columbia?
2.	When, and to whom was the contract for such construction awarded, and for what amount?
3.	What was the estimated cost of such construction as made by or for the Department of Public Works, and when was such estimate made?
4.	What was the estimated difference in cost between using reinforced concrete and bituminous pavement for the parking area?
5.	What land was acquired for the construction of such buildings and parking area, from whom was it acquired, and at what prices?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	Geo. D. McLean and Associates Limited, Vancouver, B.C., $332,696; Bennett and White Construction Company, Limited, Vancouver, B.C., $363,920; Dominion Construction Company Limited, Vancouver, B.C., $399,498.
2.	(a) October 5, 1950; (b) Geo. D. McLean and Associates Limited; (c) $332,696.
3.	(a) $375,927; (b) July 27, 1950.
4.	Bituminous pavement for parking area was not called for in the specifications.
5.	Part of lot 640, map 1950, district lot 2450S, Similkameen division of Yale district in the province of British Columbia, amounting to 1-37 acres, was purchased from Mr. A. Neuman for $5,000. Notice of expropriation was filed against a portion on block 1 of lot 2, map 3958, district lot 2450S, Similkameen division of Yale district, province of British Columbia, owned by D. P. Simpson. No settlement has as yet been made.



POSTAL SERVICE


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: 1.	Has the government dropped from its Post Office Department operations the term "Royal Mail"?
2.	If so, what was the reason for such a step?
3.	Does this step represent government policy in connection with other departments or services now using that term?


Mr. Langlois (Gaspe):: For more than
twenty-five years the designation "Canada Post Office" has been generally used on mail trucks, mail receptacles and other equipment. There is therefore no change in policy or in practice.



POSTMASTERS AND MAIL COURIERS, HALIFAX CITY AND COUNTY

Mr. Balcom:: 1.	How many post offices are there in Halifax city
and county?	-
2.	How many changes in postmasters were made in Halifax city and county since January 1, 1951?
3.	How many changes in couriers were made since January 1, 1951?
4.	How many vacancies were caused through resignations?


Mr. Langlois (Gaspe):: 1.	139, including staff, revenue and sub post offices.
2.	11.
3.	11, including two letter carriers.
4.	18.



GRANTS TO SCHOOLS OF SOCIAL WORK

Mr. Balcom:: 
Mr. Martin:: These grants are intended to make possible an increase in the number of adequately trained social workers, of which there is a great shortage in Canada. The universities use a certain portion of their grant to provide bursaries for suitable students who would otherwise be unable to take the necessary training. This assistance becomes increasingly important as the number of students receiving DVA benefits is steadily declining. The balance of the grant is used
Inquiries of the Ministry to provide facilities to deal with the increased enrolment. This may take the form of additional staff for teaching or for supervising field work. It may also be used for additions to the library or teaching materials.
The schools of social work have recommended a basic grant of $3,000 to each school, the remainder of the money to be divided on the basis of this year's enrolment of full-time students in each school. Approval is being sought for distribution on this basis.
The proposed grant would result in the following increases:
School of Social Work	1951 Grant	1952 Grant	IncreaseMaritime School of Social Work 	..$ 2,390	$ 5,890	$ 3,500Laval University School of Social Science ....	. . 4,690	9,350	4,660University of Montreal School of Social Service	.. 7,310	9,920	2,610McGill University School of Social Work	. . 7,150	13,100	5,950St. Patrick's College School of Social Welfare	.. 2,390	6,890	4,500University of Toronto School of Social Work ..	.. 12,060	23,040	10,980University of Manitoba School of Social Work	.. 3,870	8,190	4,320University of British Columbia School of Social Work 	. . 12,640	23,620	10,980



INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. J. Brooks (Royal):: Mr. Speaker, an order for return in my name was passed about three weeks ago. It had to do with correspondence between the Department of Public Works or the Department of Justice and the government of New Brunswick in connection with the construction of a bridge from Campbellton to Cross Point. I should like to ask either minister if he is prepared to give me that return. The session is getting near to its close, and I should like to have that correspondence if possible.


Hon. Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works):: I will give my immediate attention to that request, and will do my utmost to please my hon. friend.



SOUTH SASKATCHEWAN RIVER PROJECT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: The
other day the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) undertook to table a return asked for by myself with reference to the South Saskatchewan river dam and irrigation project. As we are approaching the end of the session, I would ask that it be tabled. It was understood that would be done so that it would be available today.


Alphonse Fournier: Was that under a motion for the production of papers?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes.


Alphonse Fournier: I will communicate with the Secretary of State to see if-


Gordon Graydon: He is right here. You do not need to do that.


John George Diefenbaker: Is that return available?


Hon. F. G. Bradley (Secretary of Stale):: I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I have not seen the return, but I will look into the matter.


John George Diefenbaker: There is only a short time available to look into it.



FRED ROSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Knapman Fraser: should like to address a question to the Minister of Justice. As Fred Rose will be on the loose again on August 9, will the minister tell us what steps the government is taking to have his Canadian citizenship revoked, and also to see that he is deported to the country that he loves better than Canada?


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that I cannot answer that question. I think it should be addressed to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

Supply-National Defence


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Surely the Minister of Justice has to take a hand in this matter. We should not have these rodents here.

On the orders of the day:


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration the question that I addressed to the Minister of Justice. Will he please give me an answer?


Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration):: Yes, Mr. Speaker; I will accept the question as notice, and will give my hon. friend an answer on my estimates.



FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 397, to amend the Federal District Commission Act, 1927.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, amendments read the second time and concurred in.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE Royal Canadian Air Force (regular) -
Civil salaries and wages, $12,554,139; civilian allowances, $253,135; pay and allowances, $66,003,768; travelling and removal expenses, $6,852,014; freight, express and cartage, $4,307,300; pensions, superannuation and other benefits in respect of personal services, $104,256; total, $90,074,612.
Mr. Cold well: Last evening, Mr. Chairman, I began to discuss a matter which I said would not take me long, but I acceded to the request of the Minister of Public Works to defer any further mention of it until this morning. Hansard indicates that last night I was speaking of wastage by the armed forces. I said that my attention had been drawn particularly and recently to the loss of a couple of aircraft in the Northwest Territories and in Saskatchewan. Both were Canso planes. One came down in the Northwest Territories on Spitfire lake, about one hundred miles north of Goldfields. When this incident was reported to the government of Saskatchewan, which is extremely anxious to obtain this type of plane because they are excellent for carrying supplies into the far north-I am informed that the plane will carry about four tons of freight-they sent up a pilot and a competent engineer to see if

this plane could be brought back, reconditioned and utilized. When they looked over the situation they found that the engine had been removed and that the plane had been destroyed by fire and, from all appearances, hacked to pieces with axes.
The other similar case was on Ennadai lake, about one hundred miles north of Wollaston lake in the province of Saskatchewan, and the same sort of report was received. This procedure fits in, of course, with what was done after the last war, when a great deal of the equipment was mutilated and destroyed. Indeed, if I may just speak on another branch of the minister's department, it is said that in Saskatoon tires that are taken off army vehicles after they have run a certain distance are destroyed when they could be reconditioned or sold to civilians for farm use. I am reminded that, in connection with the same city, early in the war, I brought to the government's attention or to the attention of the minister of munitions and supply, as the present Minister of Defence Production (Mr. Howe) was then, the matter of the wastage of oil. After some considerable time the minister authorized that the oil might be reconditioned and sold locally for tractors, and so on.
I think that wastage of this description is something that the department should check. We are spending hundreds of millions of dollars for defence supplies with respect to the navy, army and air force; and, as a friend of mine said to me a few days ago, it seems to me that sometimes military men have the idea that army supplies running into millions of dollars can be requisitioned without much question. A careful check should be made on the manner in which supplies are destroyed as unusable when, in my op'inion, in many instances, they could be used. In this particular instance I am of the opinion-as are others, including competent engineers-that the aircraft could have been salvaged, reconditioned and used for the carrying of supplies through northern Canada.
I bring this to the attention of the minister. I mentioned it to him before, and I have no doubt that he has made some inquiries about it. I shall be very glad to hear the results of the inquiry, and to receive, as I know the committee will wish to receive, assurances that instructions have been given that in the event of such occurrences every attempt will be made to salvage rather than to destroy navy, army, and air force equipment.
Hon. Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Defence):: I am very glad indeed to give the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar the facts on the two Cansos to which he has referred.

He was good enough to mention this to me, and I had the cases looked up. Neither of the accidents occurred in Saskatchewan, but rather in the Northwest Territories.


Major James William Coldwell: I thought the second one
was within the Saskatchewan boundary.


Brooke Claxton: Canso 9815, while landing
at Ennadai lake, Northwest Territories, on September 10, 1950, was damaged. The aircraft was beached and a repair party was flown in. It was decided that owing to the lateness of the season the engines and ancillaries would be inhibited and the aircraft would be flown out at a later date when a runway could be prepared on the ice. Emergency repairs were carried out on the spot, a runway made on the ice and the aircraft flown to No. 10 depot, Calgary. It is being repaired there and will soon be returned to R.C.A.F. service.


Major James William Coldwell: I am glad to hear that.


Brooke Claxton: Canso 11018, while employed on operation magnetic, struck a reef while taking off from Spitfire lake, Northwest Territories, on July 15, 1950. The captain tried to run the aircraft on the beach, but it sank about 150 feet from shore. The salvage crew with equipment were flown in by Canso and were able to float and winch the aircraft partly out of the water. The load and the accessories, the instruments, compasses, radio equipment and auxiliary power unit, together with engine and ancillary equipment, were salvaged. The engines were not salvaged because they could not be loaded with the equipment available on a Canso aircraft. They were badly corroded and considered beyond economic repair. Salvage equipment was not available to salvage the engines. I may say that the air force have very much heavier and more powerful equipment than the province of Saskatchewan or any commercial operator to do the job.


Major James William Coldwell: I understood that the
engines had been salvaged.


Brooke Claxton: No, they could not be
salvaged because in that location they were too heavy to lift on to the only type of aircraft that could land there, and that was a Canso. These are the only two accidents happening in that area in 1950 and 1951. I hope that clears up the matter.
With regard to the suggestion that tires were destroyed, this charge had been made on a good many occasions back as far as 1941. I remember them long before I had this portfolio. The Minister of Trade and Commerce and of Defence Production is responsible for the procurement of tires, and also for the disposal of tires that have ceased to be
Supply-National Defence serviceable. He assures me that he knows of no case where tires were destroyed. Certainly I have heard of none during the last four and a half years that I have been in this position. All tires that can be made serviceable again are recapped. We even build up the walls of tires. That is done at all the main R.C.E.M.E. depots of the army, and also in the air force and navy. I have watched this operation, and looked into its cost, and I believe it compares very favourably with the cost of any civilian operation, and that we get as big a use out of our tires as any commercial operations.
With regard to oil, that is strained and used over and over again just as long as it is possible to use it. I can assure the hon. member that as far as humanly possible, using the most modern methods, every effort is made to get the utmost use out of our military equipment.
When these estimates were before us previously the hon. member for Kootenay West made reference to a similar case, as recorded at page 3436 of Hansard, where he said he had been, told that an army car was used by a provost marshal in Montreal. That was looked into very thoroughly. It was found not to be the case. However, the explanation of the report is that by arrangement with the police of the city of Montreal, provost officers are not only allowed but in fact asked to put on their own private cars "O.H.M.C.S." stickers so as to enable them, when necessary, to be recognized by civilian police. That seems to be a convenience for the civilian police, and that no doubt is the explanation of the story.


[Stage Direction]
Subitem agreed to.
Search and rescue-
Pay and allowances	 $1,514,512
Professional and special services	 12,363
Travelling and removal expenses	 158,721
Freight, express and cartage	
Telephones, telegrams and other communication services	 22,767
Printing of departmental reports and
other publications	 1,650
Office stationery, supplies and equipment	 2,280
Materials and supplies	 433,985
Major procurement of equipment	 898,836
Repairs and upkeep of equipment		700,200
Sundries	 115,309
Total	 $3,860,623
Mr. Catherwood:: I should like to ask a question or two on this item. Is this item the search and rescue that was formerly carried on by the Department of Transport for civilian purposes?


Brooke Claxton: The co-ordinating agency for all search and rescue operations at sea and

Supply-National Defence on land throughout Canada is the Royal Canadian Air Force. It has the communication services, the control centres and the plotting rooms from which search and rescue operations are conducted. It co-ordinates all activities, and that includes the Department of Transport in respect of its communications, its transport, its ships, and also in so far as relations with the merchant marine are concerned, so that we have a close working relationship co-ordinated by the R.C.A.F.


A. Earl Catherwood: I am happy to hear that, because I think it is a splendid idea to have civilians and the Department of National Defence working in conjunction with those other departments.
I should like to bring to the attention of the minister an incident that occurred in March of this year. A number of small fishing craft out from the port of Port Maitland were on a fishing operation five miles off shore when a large ice floe enveloped them. They were unable to reach shore, and had to spend the night out on the ice floe. On the following day three of these craft were able to get to shore. The remaining four were still enveloped in this ice floe. The situation was desperate. There was no way of getting food supplies or fuel to them. A telephone call was put through to the life-saving station at Buffalo to send a helicopter to the rescue. That was the only thing that could drop supplies. These people were trapped in the ice floe three days before a rescue was effected. Food supplies and fuel were dropped, as I say, and if this had not been done they would not have been able to reach shore safely. The situation was indeed desperate.
We in that section of the country were deeply grateful for those services that were provided by the life-saving service of Buffalo. I believe there is an international arrangement between Canada and the United States-


Brooke Claxton: That is right.


A. Earl Catherwood: -in respect to those services. As was pointed out by the Dunn-ville Chronicle, which is an excellent weekly newspaper, we in Canada should also have these facilities available. Had this helicopter not been available from Buffalo, the situation would have been serious and lives would have been lost.
In view of the importance of the fishing industry and of the great amount of shipping on the great lakes-there are millions of tons of shipping on the great lakes each year-I would like the minister to give consideration to having some sort of service such as they have in Buffalo provided for our own fishing industry and our own shipping on the great


lakes. If a service such as this were provided, with headquarters at possibly Hamilton, Toronto, Windsor, London or at some of those other places on the great lakes, it would be greatly appreciated by the people in that section. I would ask the minister to give this matter due consideration.


Brooke Claxton: Mr. Chairman, we have a complete pooling arrangement with the United States by which we work as a team. It is interesting to note that we have made more rescues of United States vessels and aircraft with our service than the United States has made of Canadian vessels and aircraft with theirs. So that we are carrying our fair share of the load.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General services-
247. Grants to military associations, institutes and others, as detailed in the estimates, $215,925.
Mr. Pearkes:: I have only one brief observation on this, and I am not sure whether it is in order. Owing to the reports as to the unsatisfactory state of welfare services in Korea, would the minister look into this matter and see whether it can be improved?


Brooke Claxton: Yes, indeed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
728. To authorize the governor in council to increase the pension granted to SP 38171 Warrant Officer class I William Edward Tyrell under the Militia Pension Act effective January 25, 1950, by including for purposes of calculation of his pension the amount of dependents allowance which would have been paid to his wife had she not been a member of the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service during the period July 28, 1945 to October 20, 1945, $1.
Mr. Stanfield:: Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege, may I for a few moments revert to the matter of war graves?


The Chairman:: On which item?


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member
wants to make a general observation.


Frank Thomas Stanfield: I should like to speak about war graves and to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Nanaimo, that the remains of boys killed in Korea be brought back to Canada. I realize that the circumstances in connection with the burial of boys killed in France and Belgium in the first and second great wars are very different from the circumstances in connection with the boys killed in Korea. Korea is a country which will not be and has not been visited by many Canadians, nor do I expect it will be after the war is over. A boy named Leslie Field, from my own town, was killed there, and also another boy. Those are the only

two from my part of Canada. We hope there will not be a large number of our boys killed over there.
In view of the fact that Korea is a dismal, bleak and entirely foreign country, I believe we would be wise to do as the Americans are doing, namely, to bring the remains of our boys home so that they may be buried in graves in Canada and monuments may be erected to their honour. I would certainly like to see this done, and I recommend it to the minister's department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Militia Pension Act-
730. Government's contribution to the permanent
forces pension fund, further amount required, $14,030,538.
Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Brooke Claxton: There are one or two corrections I should like to make. I told the hon. member for Calgary East that there were not more than 500 acres involved at Sarcee. I find it is 1,055, with the possibility of obtaining a lease for 11,000 additional.
The hon. member for Chicoutimi referred to the case of Flight Lieutenant Desrochers. That had been referred to me, and I have written him fully on the subject. He was released from the Royal Canadian Air Force because he failed to pass the qualifying examinations in 1948, 1949 and 1950.
With regard to the case of Forrest, I would say that he is well over the age for the rank for which he applied. He was not an officer overseas in commissioned ranks, and therefore is not eligible.
The hon. member for Three Rivers asked, as set out at page 4762 of Hansard, if 10 per cent or 25 per cent was correct. I do not know where the hon. member got the figure of 10 per cent, but the correct figure is 25 per cent.
I believe I have answered all the points.


Mr. Murphy:: Perhaps I am out of order, Mr. Chairman, but with permission I should like to refer to the proposed erection of an airport at Sarnia.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Joseph Warner Murphy: I did make a submission before, and I think the minister made a statement. However, since that time there has been an increase in the war potential of that area. We have important industries there, including Imperial Oil, Polymer and Dow Chemical-and since that time Canadian Oil. Other chemical industries are coming in. These are of such importance to our war effort that I was hoping the Minister of National Defence would consult with the
Supply-Public Works Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, in view of the fact that we have in that area 4,400 acres now used as an Indian reserve. At the present time there are about eighty families there, and it is as a matter of fact within the limits of the city of Sarnia. It has some frontage on the river and would make an ideal site for an airport. I submit that, because of the importance of the industry there, the government and the minister should give very special consideration to the construction of an airport for the defence of those industries. I believe we would receive co-operation from the city and from industry.


Brooke Claxton: If and when we have to have additional airports, very serious consideration will be given to the representations of the hon. member, and of many other hon. members who made requests and recommendations that airports be established in their vicinities.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
343. Quebec, $7,968,000.
Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Speaker, when we last discussed the estimates of the Department of Public Works the hon. member for Calgary East asked me a question about the estimated cost of the printing bureau at Hull. He had put a question on the order paper, and we had answered it to the effect that the original estimate was $11,300,000, and that the actual estimate was $11,300,000. He thought these two figures did not agree because there was an interval of time of two or three years between the two estimates.
I find he was right. I have had a memorandum prepared by the officers of the department, and they say that in 1946, when it was decided to look into the question of relocating and rebuilding the printing bureau, it was considered then that to replace the facilities in the present printing bureau and to expand them to the point where they would meet the requirements of today, an expenditure in the neighbourhood of between $8,000,000 and $10,000,000 would be required.
In the next year, 1947, we had come to the conclusion that the job was of such magnitude that the best interests of the public would be served by our engaging an industrial engineer, experienced in the construction of public printing plants. We accordingly made arrangement with Mr. M. E. Powers, of Chicago, who made a trip to Ottawa, and we worked with him and the king's printer in an endeavour to
4824

Supply-Public Works determine primarily the facilities to be provided, and, secondly, the size and type of building required to have them operate in the most economical way.
Two years later, in 1949, after we had studied the problem and determined the size of the building, we engaged the services of a Montreal architect to prepare detailed plans and specifications. In April, 1949, we received a preliminary estimate from him of $9,293,818. This estimate has been revised since 1949, and on May 1, 1951, the estimate given by our architect is $11,300,000.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I should like to thank the minister for that statement, because it clears up some of the points I questioned before.
There are two other points. I asked what the present estimate of the total cost would be, and I got the figure of $11,300,000. Then I asked what the present estimated total cost of the building would be. The answer was, "Answered by No. 1". In other words, this $11,300,000 is the cost of the building alone and does not include the cost of the land or the cost of flood prevention.


Alphonse Fournier: When the building is constructed there will be no flooding. This spring the creek which runs behind the site overflowed, and as the work was not advanced the water went into the excavation which was referred to by certain newspapers as a lake. They brought in a rowboat when they took a picture of the site. When the building is completed there will be no flooding. The water that did come in had to be taken out by the contractor.
In answer to the second question I am told that the cost of the site is included in the $11,300,000.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The returns state that the cost of the building is $11,300,000, and therefore I would take it that that includes the cost of the site. The minister says there will be no flooding, but I would think there will be considerable expense in diking or filling in the land so that the property will not be flooded. This water was not only in the excavation; it covered the surrounding land, and there will have to be some kind of antiflood protection provided in the way of dikes or filling to make the land higher.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that no diking will be required once the building is completed. If the water should come up to the building there would be no flooding because it is built on solid rock.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I still am not too clear on this matter. Does the minister now say that the return was incorrect, and that the figure of
IMr. Fournier (Hull).]

$11,300,000, which- was given as the present estimated cosit, is not the cost of the building?


Mr, Fournier (Hull):: I would not say that there was a mistake in the answer, but there was certainly a misunderstanding. We never take as the final estimate guesses made in 1946, or preliminary estimates made in 1946 and 1949. The final figure which I considered at the time as the real estimate is $11,300,000. There may be a misunderstanding as to the next part. I am told by my officials that the cost of the site is included in that amount of $11,300,000.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It is getting a little late in the session to pursue this any further, so I shall leave it until next year.


Alphonse Fournier: We will have made more progress by that time and I shall have more information.


Douglas Scott Harkness: It seems to me that the way this return has been prepared is open to considerable question. As the minister has stated, there was a mistake in answering the first two questions. At the next session I should like to get these things straightened out, because I think they are far from clear. I should like to know what is the exact situation as far as the cost of this printing bureau is concerned, the cost of the site, the cost of the building and everything else.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall do my best to meet the wishes of the hon. gentleman at the next session.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of buildings-
344. Ottawa, $5,783,000.
Mr. Hansell:: I understand that this item would include work on the centre block. Has the minister given consideration to modernizing the elevator system in this building? Much of the time it does not operate. In this modern age, when automatic elevators are installed in apartment blocks and public buildings, our elevator service should be completely revamped and installed.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps the hon. member is right, but I am under the direction of a government that wants to economize at this time. The elevators in this building are maintained in a state of repair by the Otis-Fensom Elevator Company, which is one of the outstanding companies in that field. We try to maintain them in as good a state of repair as possible. Until I am authorized to replace them I do not think the hon. member should insist at this time that we go on with that work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
346. Manitoba, $430,000.
Mr. Knowles:: For information only, may I inquire as to the status of the proposed new post office building in Winnipeg?


Alphonse Fournier: As the hon. member knows, we have .acquired the site, and plans and specifications have been prepared. However, we hesitate to call for tenders at this time because of the steel situation. I dioubt if a contractor could get steel, as there is no steel priority for public buildings. As soon as conditions change, or as soon as a contractor can be assured that he will be able to get steel, we shall be just as anxious to proceed with this project as the hon. gentleman.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In other words, there would seem to be no intention at the present time of going ahead with it?


Alphonse Fournier: Not right now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
347. Saskatchewan, $1,168,000.
Mr. Wrighi:: The other day I asked the Minister of Agriculture about the construction of a bridge across the North Saskatchewan river on the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and he replied that if this bridge was constructed it would be constructed by the Department of Public Works. Have any applications been received from public bodies in the area for the construction of this bridge? What would be the position of the government with regard to it? The rumours circulating in the area are to the effect that the dominion government would be prepared to construct the bridge if the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan would be prepared to construct the approaches and highway.


Alphonse Fournier: I am informed that no request has come from outside bodies, but we have had correspondence with the province of Saskatchewan. I mentioned yesterday that we had received a request from the province to construct this bridge, and, if I recall correctly, I gave a general answer, that along with other requests with regard to interprovincial bridges it would be considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At one o'clock the committee took recess. 80709-306J
Supply-Public Works The committee resumed at three o'clock.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
348. Alberta, $1,073,000.
Ernest George Hansell: I know all hon. members
would like to have public buildings in their constituencies, and I would not raise this question now if I had not brought it to the attention of the minister on previous occasions. My question is as to the possibility of a new public building or post office at Coleman, Alberta. I have spoken to the minister, and also to the Postmaster General, and of course their answer was that they would like to proceed with this building, and that it was on the list. I fancy it should have worked pretty well to the top of the list by this time, and I am just wondering whether the minister can say whether there is very much hope of getting that building soon. It is not in this year's estimates.
While I am asking the minister that question may I point out that there is a decrease of a million and three-quarters in the appropriation for public works in Alberta this year. I notice, of course, that there is a decrease in almost every province; but the largest decrease, except that in Quebec, is in Alberta. That may be a good sign; it may mean that Alberta has a good government, but it does seem to me that one or two more projects that may be necessary in Alberta might have been proceeded with. In fairness to the minister I should point out that the summary for his department shows a decrease of $18,721,310, which is commendable in these days when we want to cut our expenditures a little.
Would the minister say whether there is any hope for the building at Coleman? That town is very badly in need of a post office. The matter has been investigated; the department has had its officials there and they have seen the situation. The post office is in a dilapidated building which is. beng rented. The population of Coleman is some 4,000.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member is
correct in saying that there has been a decrease in every province but one. I had to cut down these estimates on instructions from the government. I think one of the largest cuts was made in my department, amounting to over $18 million. I would like to extend to the people of the nice town of Coleman all possible hope at this time, but I would not want to go too far; I may be checked in my enthusiasm for that town. The decrease in Alberta is largely due to the fact that we have completed some of our largest buildings ir>
that province. Last year

Supply-Public Works we had $595,000 for the Edmonton postal terminal. That has been completed, and that would explain in part this decrease. But even if they try to cut me down I will certainly not forget about this town recommended by the hon. gentleman.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The minister will perhaps remember that for the last five years I have been bringing up the question of the customs house at Coutts, and finally, I think about two years ago, construction was started. I see there is a further vote of $170,000 to complete that building. Would the minister say what stage construction has reached, and how soon it will be completed? Will it be ready soon, now that the tourist season is just starting to roll?


Alphonse Fournier: This revote of
$170,000 is to provide for the completion of the contract with the Bird Construction Company for $444,752, for the construction of a customs and immigration building and a customs examining warehouse at Coutts. We had two tenders on. that contract; one was from the Bird Construction Company for $444,752, and the other was from the General Construction Company (Alberta) Limited! for $567,962. Last year we spent $277,000 on that building, and this is to complete the building this year.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Has the minister any
information as to the position of the building now, whether it is nearly finished?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that construction is more than fifty per cent completed.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Then I take it the building
will not be finished this year?


Alphonse Fournier: It is our hope that
it will.


Mr. Johnston:: I notice under this item $125,000 for a public building at Banff. What is that for? Is it the administration building?


Alphonse Fournier: This amount of
$125,000 is required for the construction of a public building to provide improved accommodation for the postal service.


Charles Edward Johnston: The minister says this is to fix up the post office. Has the government any intention of building a new post office at Banff? That has been rumoured for some time now, and the need is there. As the minister probably knows, the post office is on the other side of the Bow river, entirely away from the town, and there is need of a new post office there. Has the government given any consideration to that?


Alphonse Fournier: This vote of $125,000 is for a new building.


Charles Edward Johnston: Where is it to be built?


Alphonse Fournier: The site selected for the proposed building consists of lots 9, 10 and 11, in block 7, located on Banff avenue between Caribou and Wolf streets. This site, formerly under the jurisdiction of the Department of Mines and Resources, has been transferred to the Department of Public Works for the erection of the proposed building.


Mr, Johnsion:: That will be right in town, will it?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told so.


Mr.   Johnsion@: I want to commend the government on their action in this regard. It is long overdue.


Mr. Shaw:: I believe it would please the
minister for me to assert that I am not asking for anything at this particular moment.


Alphonse Fournier: Thank you.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Has the minister any information with respect to the possible date of completion of the Red Deer public building, and the opening of it?


Alphonse Fournier: We have spent
$268,000 to date, and we have this revote of $130,000 to complete the building. I am told that between forty and fifty per cent of the work has been completed.


Mr. Hosking:: On behalf of the citizens in
my riding, and the townspeople of Fergus particularly, and on behalf of the Postmaster General I wish to thank the Minister of Public Works for the beautiful post office which he has had built for these citizens.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of
public buildings-
349. British Columbia, $3,294,000.
Mr. Fulton:: There is an amount of $90,000 for the completion of a public building at Williams Lake, British Columbia. It is a revote from last year. Can the minister say what is the position with respect to the likelihood of construction being commenced this year or at an early day?


Alphonse Fournier: I am informed that if the steel is available we would be ready to ask for tenders in the near future. I am not the controller of steel, and I have no priority, but I shall do my best, as I am doing for every other member.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would that refer to Peterborough as well?


Alphonse Fournier: I shall do the same
thing for Peterborough.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I could not ask the minister
to make any promises about steel. I understand the plans have been prepared and the site has been chosen, so it is only a question of the availability of materials which would hold up the commencement of construction this year. Is that the situation?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told it would
be the lack of materials, and especially steel, that would hold up the asking for tenders.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is the minister in a position
to make a sort of general statement?


Alphonse Fournier: Actually I do not
know how many contracts I have on my table which cannot be finalized, because we cannot guarantee steel to the contractor. If the situation changes, we shall certainly go ahead with every project we have proposed in our estimates.


Mr. Cruickshank:: I should like to ask one
question in this connection; possibly the answer is in the supplementary estimates, but I am not sure. There is an item of $1 in the supplementaries for Fraser Valley, and that is probably my answer. In Huntingdon, which is the second port of entry in the province of British Columbia, a building was to be constructed and a sum was put in the estimates to cover it. This year, unless this $1 is for that purpose, I see no amount for the construction of the building. I understand the property has been or is being acquired. Will the property be acquired and construction of the building commenced?


Alphonse Fournier: This is a question
which should be asked) on1 the supplementary estimates, but I have no objection to answering it now. The item of $1 for that fine town in the hon. gentleman's riding is to authorize the department to apply to the treasury board to have a transfer of funds from the main vote, which will not be expended on certain public buildings because of the material shortage, to be applied to Huntingdon for the purchase of a site and the preparation of plans.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Is that just for Huntingdon or the Fraser Valley riding? Is that dollar for the whole of British Columbia?


Alphonse Fournier: If you look at page
38 of the supplementary estimates you will see that we cover Abbotsford and Huntingdon, buildings for customs and immigration. Then, there is that $1 item which will allow funds to be taken out of the main estimates for buildings in British Columbia, and applied to Huntingdon, which was not mentioned in the main estimates.
Supply-Public Works


Ernest George Hansell: I notice, Mr. Chairman, that there are a couple of items in the British Columbia appropriation for customs and immigration buildings. I might point out to the minister what I believe is a general feeling among our people in respect to the public buildings at various ports of entry into Canada along the United States boundary. I have had to cross into the United States and back into Canada on a number of occasions and at a number of different places. I urge the minister to do what he can for the improvement of our buildings at these ports of entry, because when we compare these buildings with the ones on the United States side of the line there appears to be quite a difference. There are just as many people going one way as coming the other, I fancy, unless there are settlers who are coming here to stay.
First impressions are very important. I am afraid that quite often our friends from the United States receive an unfavourable first impression. They pass their own public buildings, and then come to ours. Some of them are just not in the same class at all. The impression they immediately receive is that we are not so up and coming as they are; we are a poor country compared with their country. That is not so, because we are a wealthy country. I am going to suggest that the minister do what he can or what the government will permit him to do along that line. It may be a fancy of mine, but even the immigration and customs officials do not seem to be as well dressed as the United States officials. I hope that is not regarded as a harsh criticism, but to me, and I believe to many others, all these things are important.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to come back to Huntingdon. If my memory serves me correctly, an item of $200,000 was placed in the estimates for that building, and voted. I appreciate the shortage of steel, though sometimes when I hear from my motorcar dealers who are endeavouring to sell cars that are stacked a mile wide and a mile high in British Columbia, I do not think there is a shortage of steel. I see $250,000 voted for Osoyoos, which is in the riding of the member for Yale. I have no objection to Osoyoos securing a customs and immigration building. I happen to know Osoyoos probably as well as the average member in this house. With one good hop and a jump one could drive right over the place. I do not customarily boast about the Fraser valley. The records will show what the traffic is both from the customs point of view and from the immigration point of view through Osoyoos and through Huntingdon, and there is no comparison whatsoever. I do not need to say that the records of the Department of

supply-Public Works National Revenue will show that. I do not want to blame the minister and his department unfairly. For that reason I should like him to tell me on whose recommendation $250,000 was put in the estimates this year to build a customs building at Osoyoos, when Huntingdon, the second port-


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


George Alexander Cruickshank: You know, Mr. Chairman, some of my good friends in that minority group over on the opposite side of the chamber, between eight and nine o'clock, sometimes take a little bit of extra time by saying "carried, carried". But when one represents the second largest port of entry in British Columbia, he is entitled to know why there is no item in the estimates this year for Huntingdon. If it is a shortage of material, all right; I can appreciate that difficulty and I believe my people can understand it. But we cannot understand a shortage of material at Huntingdon and no shortage at Osoyoos. We cannot understand $250,000 for a building at a small port of entry when there is no item to construct a building at Huntingdon. I should like to know from the minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, the reason for that and if it is going to be sidetracked definitely or if it is going to be carried through. In this case, for once at least, I can be substantiated by records of the Department of National Revenue-I could not be substantiated particularly on my own income tax, but I can in this case-that the entry from the main city of Seattle in the state of Washington is through this district. Why has it been overlooked?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Alphonse Fournier: Just a minute. I think I owe the hon. member an explanation. As to Osoyoos, the contract was given last year. The work is proceeding along, and "this item of $250,000 is to complete the work. At Huntingdon, the site has not been purchased and the plans have not been prepared. That is why I have an item in the supplementary estimates

so there would be no feud between those two places. We have a supplementary estimate for the purchase of the site and the preparation of the plans. A building started last year would be advanced to such a point that we would have to complete it. As to a building not started yet, I am held back by lack of materials. But my hon. friend knows that he can rely on me, on my good will, and my good intentions.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I have just one word to say. The Minister of Public Works is probably the fairest man in this committee, with the possible exception of the hon. member for Fraser Valley. I know that he will do the

right thing for my riding. As I understand it, an estimate will be put in next year for some $500,000 for Huntingdon.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, I would not make that promise.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Well, between $400,000 and $500,000. I want to make this suggestion to the minister now, as a result of the experience in my riding which has been fairly treated by the minister's department. I want to suggest to him that, before plans are prepared for the new building, his architect or whoever is responsible for this work should visit our particular district and size up this particular building. The reason I am emphasizing that point, Mr. Chairman, is this. We have had three new post offices built. As I say, the department have been extremely fair in my riding. We had three new post offices built. We have a basement in there big enough for a bowling alley but which is of no use at all. That sort of thing may be all right in eastern Canada. It is the taxpayers' money that is going to pay for these benefits in my riding; and I am merely suggesting that the department either have a British Columbia architect prepare the plans or that they give me the assurance that the local architect will view the site prior to the preparation of the plans, and prepare their plans according to the needs of western Canada, not along the lines of what may be necessary in eastern Canada. As I stated, two buildings were built within two years. They built fine buildings. But thousands of dollars have been spent on basements which are unnecessary and are unused in our province. I should like the assurance of the minister that the matter to which I have referred will be given consideration.


Alphonse Fournier: Oh yes; I certainly will consider the remarks made by the hon. gentleman.


Edmund Davie Fulton: No basements in Fraser valley.


Mr. McLure:: I should like to draw to the attention of the Minister of Public Works the fact that, in most cases where these post offices are not being built, he has used the same excuse for their not being built, namely that there is a shortage of steel.


Alphonse Fournier: That is right.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I was wondering whether the steel companies are brushing him off in that way. I notice that one post office is being built-in fact there are a couple-and that there was no shortage of steel for them; and those post offices had not been promised as had other ones. For instance, I referred to the new post office being built in Montreal, on Windsor street. It is to take a whole block there from St. James up to St. Antoine.

There is no scarcity of steel there. It is a big building, having seven storeys or perhaps more. I see that they have been allowed steel, and we did not hear anything about that post office as we did about the others three and four years ago; yet the shortage of steel exists with regard to them.


Alphonse Fournier: In all fairness to my department, may I say that the building mentioned by the hon. gentleman was started two years ago. The steel was ordered two years ago. I do not know whether it is near completion or not. It has been on the way. I can tell the hon. member that two months ago I still had trouble with regard to the steel for that building. Actually I had contracts ready to be finalized, but the contractors hesitated to take the contract because I could not give them any assurance that they will get the steel. I have no control over the steel. That is the real reason.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: You had no difficulty in getting that steel for that big building.


Alphonse Fournier: That is two years ago.


Alphonse Fournier: That steel was ordered two years ago.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
351. Unforeseen improvements, $2,200,000.
Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: Mr. Chairman, this item is entitled "unforeseen improvements". What I want to ask the minister is how he can foresee that unforeseen improvements are going to be up by $961,250.


An hon. Member:: The crystal ball.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Is it just his natural optimism?


Alphonse Fournier: If I could foresee the unforeseen, I would give a definite figure.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister has given a definite figure.


Alphonse Fournier: May I tell the hon. gentleman, and not in a jocular way, that my officials know the number of buildings we own and the number of buildings on which work may have to be done. But they do not know whether some accident may happen or some deterioration may take place; we therefore must put in figures based on the past experience in the department, and ask for so much in the vote. I will admit that this is one of the few items in which I just throw up the sponge and say to my officials: Tell me frankly what you think we need for this purpose.
Supply-Public Works Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood): I am interested in this matter. It must be done on a percentage basis. The buildings cannot be up 50 per cent in the last year.


Mr. Bater:: I notice that this item is called "unforeseen improvements". The project that I intend to mention now is quite noticeable,
I think, and will not take up a great deal of this $900,000. Might I suggest to the minister that the little shelter at the northwest corner of the parliamentary grounds get two or three coats of paint. I consider the shelter is quite an eyesore when visitors are around the parliament buildings.


Alphonse Fournier: I am pleased that the hon. gentleman has called my attention to that because I can see that kiosk from my own window. I do not like it. I shall try to have it painted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering services-
353. Salaries, surveys, inspections, test borings, etc., $1,588,512.
Mr. Proudfoot:: I hope I am speaking on the right item. I should like to draw the attention of the Minister of Public Works to something that exists along the Ottawa river which I think is detrimental to many of the people using the river. I refer to the fact that every Saturday the water in the Ottawa river below Des Joachims is lower by at least 18 inches than on Monday morning.
I think that is due to the controlling of the water at the hydro project at Des Joachims, or possibly our own dam at Timiskaming. It is quite costly to many of the lumber companies and others who use the river, as well as the men who transport us across the river at Pembroke and Allumette Island. Can something be done in regard to it?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, that does come under my department. We have employees at the Timiskaming dam which regulates the flow of the water according to the demand for power. On Sunday when they close it the water rises in the headrace and decreases in the tailrace. This man has been on the job for years, and I am told that he knows his work quite well. He is doing his best so that people will not suffer because of the difference in the level of the water. We cannot keep it at the same level always, but we try.


John Hugh Proudfoot: I think that possibly the hydro dam at Des Joachims is the cause of the lowering of the water. There must be some agreement in respect to that dam. I think the trouble is with the dam at Des Joachims. They are not regulating water as they should.

Supply-Public Works


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that we have something to do with the hydro dam. This is the first year of operation of this new dam, and we are trying to find the real level that will satisfy everybody in that part of the country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
364. Towards interprovincial bridge over the Ottawa river between Pembroke, Ontario, and Allumette island, Quebec, the provinces of Ontario and Quebec each to pay one-third of the cost and maintenance thereof, $50,000.
John Hugh Proudfoot: What is being done at the present time in regard to this interprovincial bridge? I know that steel is one of the reasons delaying construction at the present time. Are we getting an agreement with the provinces so that we can go ahead with this bridge when steel is available? The people of Pontiac and the people of north Renfrew feel that we should get this bridge as soon as possible. There is one thing that I should like to tell the committee. There are five bodies still in the Ottawa river between Des Joachims and Portage du Fort, the only two bridges that we have across there. What is being done in regard to having surveys and estimates accepted for this bridge? Has anything been received from the provinces?


Alphonse Fournier: I believe this is one of the projects that we are committed to, and we will proceed with it as soon as circumstances permit the obtaining of the material. To date the Ontario government has approved in principle of the construction of a bridge, and the Quebec government has stated that they are willing to co-operate in the matter. This is a resume of the letters that we received from Mr. Frost and Mr. Duplessis, and I think they are binding on the different parties. We will certainly proceed with this bridge the moment that we can have the materials.


John Hugh Proudfoot: Has any plan been prepared for this bridge? I understand that Quebec maintains that they are not able to get the necessary information that they wish to have.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps the plans have not been completed yet, but the actual estimate for these three bridges-I understand there will be three bridges-will be $950,000. I understand furthermore that the engineers of the Quebec government, the Ontario government and our government are studying these plans.


John Hugh Proudfoot: May I have the assurance that as soon as these can be completed and steel can be obtained this bridge will be built?


George Alexander Cruickshank: It will be a steal for Pontiac then.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects-
373. British Columbia and Yukon, $4,784,500.
Mr. Sinclair:: In the main estimates there is an item for $100,000 and in the supplementary estimates $325,000 to rebuild a wharf at Westview, in my riding, which was burned just eight months ago. This wharf is the only means of access of a community of 15,000 to the outside world. Just what progress has been made in the rebuilding of the wharf? We are very gratified to have these votes, but some evidence of construction would be even more gratifying.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member knows that my work is to try to get these votes through the house, and if the house is satisfied with that, then I have fulfilled part of my duty. As to the putting up of this Westview wharf, nothing is being neglected to proceed with this project as soon as the plans are completed. I understand that we did receive the plans for this pier or wharf today. I understand also that tenders will be called for in the very near future.


James Sinclair: Thank you.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Just one question in connection with this: is this for repairing a wharf that was originally initiated by the member for Fraser Valley on behalf of the hon. member for Vancouver North while he was away?


James Sinclair: Probably so.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told by the hon. member for Coast-Capilano that that may be right.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In connection with this item, there are certain appropriations for the bank protection of the various rivers. Has there been any change in the policy which lays down the circumstances under which federal money will be expended on bank protection on the various rivers across the country? One of the reasons I ask the question is that we quite frequently get requests from various localities asking whether the Department of Public Works can give any help in bank protection. Sometimes they do, and at other times they say it is not the responsibility of the department. Therefore it would be helpful if the minister would say whether there

has been any change in policy, and very briefly what the policy is which determines the responsibility of the federal department.


Alphonse Fournier: Is the hon. member referring to these works north of Revelstoke?


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is one place where the federal government did come in at one time with fairly substantial help. On other occasions and in connection with other rivers the department says it is not considered to be a federal responsibility. Has there been any change in the policy which determines the basis on which federal policy is decided? In order that we may have a clear statement to take back to our people, would the minister outline briefly what the policy is?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that if we did not protect the shoreline the dredging would become useless, and the falling away would be very rapid. That would be one case where the Department of Public Works would take full responsibility. In other cases we divide the responsibility with the local government. In the case of Revelstoke I am told that the Canadian Pacific Railway paid for part of the work, and the public works paid for part. But we have not changed the principle. Where it is the clear responsibility of the federal government, we do it ourselves. But we do certainly share in other works to protect these channels.


Mr. Fair:: Mr. Chairman, the estimates of this department have gone so fast that, in one particular, I have missed the boat. I had intended to ask a question about the bridge on the meridian north of Lloydminster.


Alphonse Fournier: That question was asked by the hon. member for Melfort this morning.


Robert Fair: It was asked by the hon. member for Melfort, and also I believe by the hon. member for The Battlefords, but we did not get much of an answer. The Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Agriculture should get together to discuss this matter, because certain promises were made in the summer of 1949 in connection with this bridge. The result of those promises is that Saskatchewan and Alberta are now building an all-weather road from Lloydminster, north to the river. A road to the river, without a bridge to get across, is not much good.
I shall not say more at this time, but at the next session I intend to say something further. I would like the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Agriculture to get together in the meantime so that they may give a definite promise in connection with it. Promises were made in the summer of 1949.
Supply-Public Works


Edmund Davie Fulton: Under what circumstances is the item of $10,000 for bank protection of the Capilano river awarded? I should like to have this information so that we may have a basis when comparing requests for similar works in the future.


Alphonse Fournier: This is an item for the construction of bank protection at the mouth of the Capilano river. This river protection work is required to prevent deposits of material in the dredged channel entering Vancouver harbour. The dikes require rebuilding, and there is some additional rock protection.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Would this be for the purpose of protecting navigation?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
375. Grand river-contribution towards improvements (revote $78,000), $93,750.
Mr. Charlton:: What is this vote for? Have any previous amounts been spent on the Grand river-and I am not going back as far as 1937, because I know some was spent at that time. What is this amount for?


Alphonse Fournier: This is to provide for a contribution of 37 J per cent toward the cost of construction of a dam on Luther marsh located on the upper reaches of the Grand river, near the village of Grand Valley. The dominion's contribution is on the same basis as that of the Ontario government's, and the balance of 25 per cent from the municipalities benefiting therefrom. This dam is part of the original scheme proposed by the Grand river conservation commission in 1939.
In the past we completed the first phase of that project. This is the second phase. It does not complete the whole system, because there will be a third phase of the work. We actually have not come to any definite decision as to that last phase. It is to the second phase we are paying our share. I believe the works are proceeding.


John Alpheus Charlton: This is not the phase of the Conestogo dam?


Alphonse Fournier: No.


John Alpheus Charlton: That is the third phase?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: May I urge the minister that the department go ahead as quickly as possible with that third phase, because every year there has been a considerable amount of damage caused at Brantford, Galt and Paris; and I am sure the Conestogo dam would help that condition.

Supply-Public Works


Alphonse Fournier: We are giving it close attention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
377.	Protection works generally-to provide for remedial works where damages are caused by, or endanger, navigation or federal government structures, $200,000.
John Hugh Proudfoot: I should like to draw the minister's attention to the need for protection works in the vicinity of Fabre, Ville-Marie and Notre Dame du Nord, all on lake Timis-kaming, and along the shores of Quinze lake. I would ask the minister to have his engineers look into this right away.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
378.	National Gallery of Canada, $285,977.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: I would ask the minister to comment on one or two of the details. In view of the fact that we are to have the report of the Massey commission before us in the fall, this may not be the best time to discuss the national gallery, but I would ask one or two questions in connection with it, prefacing my remarks by saying that I am in favour of expenditures for the national gallery. However, there are one or two expenditures about which I should like more information.
I see here an amount for the printing of national gallery reports and other publications, to the amount of $32,000. What is the nature of those reports, and to whom do they go?


Alphonse Fournier: This allotment of
$32,000 is required to provide for the cost of the preparation of photographic records of works in the national gallery collection, and of Canadian art generally. It also covers the cost of reports and surveys prepared by the national industrial designs committee. It is estimated that the $32,000 will cover the requirements for 1951-52, thereby decreasing this allotment by $5,000.
The directors of the national gallery prepare their budget, and we follow the advice of those gentlemen, who give their time and work gratuitously. The chairman of the board is Mr. Massey.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I see an item of $5,000 for preliminary investigations with respect to the proposed new national gallery building. What is the status of that project?


Alphonse Fournier: This allotment is to provide the trustees with funds to conduct a preliminary investigation as to the most suitable type of building for the national gallery, and to secure the services of qualified experts to make recommendations based upon the
(Mr. Charlton.]

best experience in other countries. This investigation would involve careful studies by such experts in this very specialized type of building, with a view to providing the best facilities for the protection of the now highly valuable national collection. It is estimated that the requirements for 1951-52 will be $5,000, thereby decreasing this allotment by $10,000.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Are these
contributions made for the encouragement of artistic work?


Alphonse Fournier: This allotment provides for the payment of memberships in various museum associations, the national film society; grants to Canadian art galleries and other contributions related to the national gallery's share of travelling exhibitions initiated by the national gallery and circulating in co-operation with other Canadian art museums. Based on the estimate of the 1951-52 requirements, this allotment is increased by $1,244.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
379.	Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $7,000 to be expended upon any one work, $300,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I should like to direct the
attention of the minister to the need of protection works at North Rustico in order to prevent the fishermen's houses and the fishing stations falling into the bay. Some work has been done by the department in the past, but protection is needed before the storms of this fall occur. It would not take more than $7,000 to complete the breastwork that was started a couple of times but which was washed out. The last start is the only one that has been any good.


Alphonse Fournier: I understand that the breastwork put up during the past three years is still there. If the hon. gentlemen tells me that it will cost only $7,000 to complete it, I am ready to endorse this project. However, I do not know if his estimate is correct.


Mr. Higgins:: I received a letter from the
resident engineer in connection with the dredging required at Avondale indicating that 80 days' work will be required and the cost will be more than was expected. I should like to ask the minister if it is at all possible to have this work proceeded with?


Alphonse Fournier: We have not received the report from the resident engineer. If it is going to take 80 days' work I would not like to commit myself before receiving the report.
.JUNE 28, 1951


Gordon Francis Higgins: I ask the minister to take
this under consideration and do the best he can. This is an important settlement and if something can be done the people will be most appreciative.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
380.	National capital planning service, $66,344.
Mr. Adamson:: I think this is the appropriate item under which to raise a matter which came to my attention during the sittings of the committee on amplification in connection with the lighting in this chamber.
I refer particularly to the canvas screens covering the windows. I do not wish to put words in the mouth of the departmental architect who appeared before the committee, but as I remember he said that the lighting in this chamber would be improved by about forty per cent if the screens were removed. The lighting in the west corner of the general gallery where there is no screen is much better than the lighting anywhere else in the chamber.
I am told that the screens were put on because the afternoon sunlight shone in the eyes of hon. members on this side. There is not the same reason for having screens on the windows on this side because the sun shines through only for a short period in the morning. A number of hon. members have referred to the impairment of their eyesight through having to work in the chamber. Daylight is allowed to come through into the British house and things are so regulated that the illumination at desk level is constant both day and night. I wish the minister would experiment with taking these screens off before the next session so that we may have a little more sunlight in this lucifugous assembly.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. gentleman
was kind enough to discuss this matter with me some days ago. I have inquired why the screens were put on but nobody seems to know. They have been up ever since I entered the house a long time ago. During the recess we may make experiments to see what the effect would be if they were removed. I shall have to follow the advice of my architects. After serving a good many years in the house our eyesight is bound to be affected.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should
like to associate myself with what the hon. member for York West has just said, although I do not understand the last word he used.


Major James William Coldwell: I agree with what the hon.
members have said, although I think a good cleaning would help.
80709-307J
Supply-Public Works


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Who is in
charge of the national capital planning service?


Alphonse Fournier: There is no department to handle the expenditures for this planning service and so we provided space in the Hunter building for these gentlemen so that they might be close to our own engineers and architects. I was requested to place a vote in our estimates to cover their expenditures, and this year the amount is $66,344 as compared with $117,000 last year. Mr. Greber is the consultant engineer, but the head of the office is Mr. J. M. Kitchen. He was an employee of the city of Ottawa years ago and we are fortunate to have his services as an associate of Mr. Greber. His salary under this would be $6,700 a year. Then Mr. Fiset was another assistant to Mr. Greber. His salary was $6,000. I have the details of this vote; I do not know if they are given in the estimate book. Salaries amount to $29,884-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I do not
want to trouble the minister by having him read those details. My question really is, who takes the responsibility for saying that is necessary? Is this as much a responsibility of the minister's department as any other, or is it just attached to it?


Alphonse Fournier: We work hand in
hand with the federal district commission on this. The federal district commission is in daily contact with these people as to plans.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That was in my mind, as to just where the federal district commission comes into this. This speaks about the national capital planning service. Would the minister explain the relationship of the federal district commission to this service and to his own department?


Alphonse Fournier: There is a subcommittee of the federal district commission called the national capital planning committee, and the advisers to this committee are the staff mentioned in this service. The national capital planning committee is composed of people who work gratuitously, but they need the assistance of the experts in their decisions and their planning. I do not think I have any special responsibility except to scrutinize their requests for expenditures and to check and bring before the house the estimates for the year; and we do check those expenditures regularly. We have no direct authority over this staff.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That is my
point. I am not going to take much time on it, but it seems hard to find who really does take the responsibility for exercising

Supply-Public Works strict economy here. As the minister says, the members of the federal district commission work gratuitously, to their great credit, and it does not seem likely to me they will feel that they have this responsibility. As far as I can make out the minister is not very clear that he has it, either; and I am just wondering who has it.


Alphonse Fournier: The explanation I
am given is that these gentlemen are architects and engineers. They are very closely associated with our own staff of architects and engineers, and if you look at the expenditures you will see that their salaries correspond with those paid in my own department. That is the way we can follow their expenditures. Personally I think this should become-no; I am not going to give a personal opinion, because I have not discussed it with the officials of the federal district commission or with my colleagues. One way to look at it is that perhaps we should maintain this service with a reduced staff, who could advise not only my department but also the federal district commission and the municipal authorities with regard to future construction, so they would follow the master plan. I think they would render useful service in that capacity as time goes by.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If the
minister will allow me I am going to finish what he did not say himself, or at least I will put my interpretation upon it. I think the minister was going to say that he thought this might be more closely knit, and that there should be stricter supervision of it by his own department. That is exactly my own opinion, and I hope that may be done. I should think the minister would be grateful to me for interpreting his words.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Architectural branch-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that the treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-further amounts required-
746. Newfoundland, $142,000.
Gordon Francis Higgins: According to the details on page 36 this amount is for the site and plans for a customs building in St. John's. This is not the building the minister was speaking about on Circular road, is it?


Alphonse Fournier: No, this would not be the building I mentioned the other day when I gave a description of the site on Circular road. This is a customs building. The property under consideration as a site for the

proposed building consists of the existing customs building site as well as vacant property adjacent to the present customs house extending from Water street to Duckworth street and measuring approximately 200 feet by 100 feet. It is also proposed to acquire property facing on Cochrane street, thereby providing a site with streets on three sides.


Gordon Francis Higgins: That is an excellent site; there is no question about that. The other building the minister was speaking about the other day, on Circular road, is to house what departments?


Alphonse Fournier: This building will accommodate income tax, unemployment insurance commission, national health and welfare, public works, immigration, agriculture and other government services that require space at St. John's.


Gordon Francis Higgins: What is to be the size of that building?


Alphonse Fournier: The tentative estimate as to space would be 90,000 square feet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
748. Prince Edward Island, $12,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What new building is to be built at Kensington to cost $12,000? Is that another post office?


Alphonse Fournier: The Kensington post office; for the purchase of the site and probably starting the preparation of plans. Does that mean anything to my hon. friend?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
753. Manitoba, $300,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: This item includes $265,000 for the purchase of a building to accommodate the Department of Veterans Affairs at Winnipeg. Will the minister say what building that is?


Alphonse Fournier: We have been occupying this building for years.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is the Commercial building, then?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. The lease expired and we received notice to vacate or else.


Stanley Howard Knowles: So you are buying the building you have been renting?


Alphonse Fournier: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for harbour and river works listed in the details of the

estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects- further amounts required-
759. Newfoundland, $137,600.
Gordon Francis Higgins: The report I was referring to a moment ago was from Mr. Millar to your chief engineer, dated June 25. I do not know whether you have a copy of it; if not I could refer to it briefly. It is a copy Mr. Millar sent me. He says:
This will refer to Avondale dredging, which was included in the program of dredging for dredge No. 400 and approved on March 12, 1951.
A survey with soundings has been carried out at Avondale recently and in this connection I am enclosing herewith accompanying report . . .
He goes on to say that the dredging may take more than the eighty days mentioned in the report. He says he is not able to carry it out without authority. His actual wording in the letter is:
You will see from the report that this dredging is quite extensive and may have to be postponed indefinitely, although this is for my headquarters in Ottawa to say.
In these estimates you have dredging and a deep-water wharf at Bonavista, $75,000; a wharf extension at Fortune, $25,000; reconstruction of harbour works at Grand Banks, $20,000; a wharf at Norris Point, $17,000. I certainly want to reiterate the fact that this is in St. John's East, but I do urge the minister, in view of the other extensive work being carried out, to have an arrangement made in the near future to complete this work. It is a rather important settlement in my riding, and it would be appreciated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
761. Prince Edward Island, $263,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: There is a vote here for a landing at Rustico harbour, $33,000. Is this in addition to the tenders that are being called for repairs of $34,000?


Alphonse Fournier: This item provides for the erection of a landing in the harbour to relieve the congestion in front of thirteen fishing stages and permit landings and to dredge a channel in front of the stages. Rustico harbour is one of the most important fishing places in the province with the lobster industry which has an annual value of $120,000. There are twenty-six boats operating from the landing to be prepared. I did not know this was in the hon. member's riding.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Is this in addition to the $34,000 contract for the breakwater? Has the contract been let as yet for the breakwater?


Alphonse Fournier: This is a different item. The $34 000 is in the main estimates,
Supply-Public Works and I understand that these two amounts will be spent in Rustico harbour. This amount is to repair the breakwater in the harbour at Rustico, Prince Edward Island. Recent winter storms and abnormally high tides have caused considerable damage which must be repaired in order that the breakwater be not completely destroyed. This is not a landing, but covers repairs to the breakwater.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
764.	Ontario, $990,000.
A. Earl Catherwood: Will the minister state whether any provision is being made for dredging at Nanticoke harbour? I have had considerable correspondence with the deputy minister about this matter, but I do not see any mention of it in the details of the estimates.


Alphonse Fournier: I am told by my
deputy we are going to do dredging at Nanticoke. He informs me that some work will be done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
765.	Manitoba, $10,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the minister two questions with regard to engineering matters in Manitoba. One I believe comes under this supplementary item, but perhaps I should have asked the other under the corresponding item in the main estimates. With respect to this $10,000 vote for remedial work at St. Andrews, may I ask if the minister can indicate when that work might be completed and the bridge opened to traffic. As the minister knows, that bridge at St. Andrews forms part of the No. 1 highway, and it is a matter of some inconvenience that it has been closed for this considerable time. I know representations have been made to him and to his officials to see if additional crews could not be put on the job so as to expedite its completion.
The other question concerns the progress being made in connection with the work at Gimli, to try to prevent erosion by the lake there. There is a fairly substantial amount in the main estimates for that. I understand the work is under way. Perhaps the minister could make a statement on those two engineering projects.


Alphonse Fournier: The first one, the
$10,000 at St. Andrews, is to provide remedial work to prevent erosion of the bank where it follows the Red river. We have done work in this area but further erosion of the bank necessitates extending the protective work. I am not sure that we have started this work

Supply

Public Works because it is covered by a supplementary vote. We probably intend to do so as soon as the money is voted.
In connection with Gimli, when this work started it was intended to use Armco steel bins for this protective work, but owing to the shortage of steel and uncertain deliveries, it is now proposed to use-


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is this Gimli?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. Our first plans contemplated steel piling, but now we shall have to revert to concrete construction. The estimated cost is thereby reduced to $35,000. The whole work to be done is a ballast construction, rock filled protection wall with concrete backing, riprapped faced casing, plus a concrete cut-off wall on the lake side for a length of 1,840 feet out of the town limits and 600 linear feet in the rural municipality, and the completion of two hundred linear feet of wall in the town, the core of which was constructed in 1950-51.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister say when that work might be completed?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that the department are working on plans for this. The scheme was changed. That explains the delay in beginning the work. We had to change over from steel to concrete. The plans have not been completed, and it is not thought that they will be ready before the end of August, to call for tenders. I was just remarking that that is quite late in the season to start this work. But it is one of those projects that I think everybody understands we will proceed with.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I want to thank the minister for that information. I hope that project can be gone ahead with as early as possible. Some hon. members might ask whether this is in my constituency. I may say that it is not, but it is in a constituency in which I hope to be spending a few weeks as soon as parliament rises.


James Sinclair: Do we have to build a wharf there just for that?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No. Indeed, where I go is seven miles from Gimli, but I happen to know the situation and to know how urgent it is to the people of Gimli, as a good part of that town has suffered considerably from this erosion. As to the first question I asked about that $10,000 for remedial work at St. Andrews, I thought that money was for repair work being done to the bridge at St. Andrews; but the minister's answer was in relation to erosion of the shore.


Alphonse Fournier: Erosion.
IMr. Fournier (Hull).]


Stanley Howard Knowles: Cdfl the minister", while we are on that item with respect to St. Andrews, say when the repair work to the bridge itself might be completed?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that this contract is being proceeded with. This contract was given out. I am told that it is a long slow job because they have to raise one end of the bridge and take out the step. We have given instructions to the contractors to proceed as rapidly as possible. We know that the people in the neighbourhood are inconvenienced by the slowness of the work.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am glad to hear that that instruction has been given to the contractor, because it seems to the people in the vicinity that the work has been proceeding too slowly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Leeks and dams-
767. British Columbia and Yukon, $1,400,000.
Mr. Laing:: I rise for the rather unusual purpose of thanking the minister for a vote included in this item, found in the estimates under the item:
Richmond island (Fraser river)-towards bank protection, $92,500.
This is the first protection of this particular type that has been done on the north arm of the Fraser river. In the past the minister's department has expended considerable sums on dredging and in rock piling on the river bank. But I want to draw to his attention how important this particular area of our city is at the present time, because Vancouver is the most rapidly growing industrial city in Canada-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Arthur Laing: -without a doubt.


An hon. Member:: Oh, oh.


Arthur Laing: You have not been there.


Mr. Wylie:: Yes, I have been there; I was there two weeks ago.


Arthur Laing: If it was two weeks ago, it was no good. You had better come again.
This particular area of Vancouver is the most rapidly growing area. Within the last three weeks we have had the announcement of no less than $4,500,000 of new investment in the approximately six miles along the north arm of the Fraser river, involving Dominion Glass, Canadian Canners and developments of the plywood plant of MacMillan Industries and Western Plywood. In thanking the minister now, may I say that I want his officials to pay an increasing amount of attention to the north arm of the fraser river where, at the present time, our

wages are $40 million per year; and they are growing rapidly. As I say, in thanking the minister, I am doing so in lively anticipation of further favours for that area.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers generally-
768. Repairs and upkeep for the maintenance of services, including reconstruction and replacements as detailed in the estimates, no new works to be undertaken-further amount required, $85,000.
Gordon Francis Higgins: This item provides an additional $60,000 for Newfoundland, over and above the item of $540,000 already included, making $600,000 altogether, I believe. Can the minister tell me where that money is to be spent?


Alphonse Fournier: Repairs and upkeep, for the maintenance of service, including reconstruction and replacement, with no new work to be undertaken. This item is to supplement the repair item when any damage is caused to our works and the work is urgent.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is it in addition to the
$540,000? '


Alphonse Fournier: Yes. That is in addition to the $540,000.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Where is that money to be spent?


Alphonse Fournier: I am told that our engineers sent up a long list of repairs to be done at these various places, but I have not the list here.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
771. Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $7,000 to be expended upon any one work-further amount required, $30,000.
Mr.   Kaiiield@: I was not in the chamber when the other estimates were called; I therefore ask my question under this item for miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for. I should like to ask the minister why the vote for the Woodstock post office was taken out of the estimates this year?


Alphonse Fournier: As I explained previously-and I am pleased to explain it again- I was given instructions to pare down the estimates of my department by some $18 million or $19 million. I was put in that position, to try to have in the estimates the most urgent projects. I know that the Woodstock post office is urgent; but it is not as urgent as some other post offices. Although I was sad about it, I had to postpone that item. But I am not forgetting that I once put it in.
Mr. Hal field: Do you ever intend to put it back in?
Supply-Resources and Development Mr. Fournier (Hull): I am considering that; really I am.


Major James William Coldwell: May I also remind the minister that the appropriation for a federal building at Biggar is one which is urgent.


Mr. Hatfield:: I would say that the post office at Woodstock is an obsolete one which was built just after confederation. Some of it is useless. This town has grown and it needs a post office badly. I would ask the minister not to forget it in his estimates next year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND DEVELOPMENT Engineering and water resources branch-
402.	To provide, subject to allocation by treasury board, for the design and planning of deferrable projects, the acquisition of sites and the initiation of construttion, $1,000,000.
Mr. Nowlan:: Will the minister give us a statement with regard to item 402? I notice that no details are given there. It is a deferrable project of some kind and the detail mentioned on the page is exactly the same detail given in the summary. I think the minister might like to give us a statement with respect to it.


Mr. Winters:: This vote is one that has been carried in the estimates for some years subsequent to the termination of hostilities. It was provided as part of the shelf program to enable the government to plan for deferrable projects to be implemented if, as and When the employment situation warranted it. The vote was $2 million for the last two or three years; but in view of the prevailing high level of employment and the general occupation of most construction industries, the vote this year was reduced to $1 million. I might say that the full amount provided in the estimates has never been used in any year in which it was provided.


George Clyde Nowlan: Has the minister the details of this item? Since there is a high level of employment in the central provinces I presume it must be intended to spend this in the maritimes and in the west. Can he give me the details?


Robert Henry Winters: No; it is the type of vote for which there is no previous specific plan. It is to be available if and when required. I hope it will not be required.


Mr. Benidickson:: What percentage of contribution is made by the federal government under item 402?


Robert Henry Winters: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
4838	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development
Trans-Canada highway division-
403.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $353,269.
George Clyde Nowlan: Can the minister tell us whether there is any change in the situation with respect to Nova Scotia on the trans-Canada highway since he last mentioned this item?


Robert Henry Winters: Nothing that I know of. No difference has come to my attention.


Mr. Balcer:: Does the same apply to the province of Quebec?


Robert Henry Winters: The same applies to the province of Quebec, yes.


Charles Edward Johnston: What progress is being made on 'the construction of the trans-Canada highway north of the great lakes to complete that link between Sudbury and Winnipeg?


Robert Henry Winters: Some progress is being made in that part of the route, Mr. Chairman. The route has now been determined between Sudbury and Chapleau. It was a matter that had not been finally determined at the time the agreement was entered into. Further surveys are being conducted between Chapleau and Thessalon on that part of the route. I am told a considerable amount of work is in progress west of Sudbury, between Sudbury and Thessalon along the route.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is construction actually
taking place from Chapleau west, or just a survey?


Robert Henry Winters: From Fort William east there has been quite a lot of work put into progress.
Mr. Cold well: Are you using the old roads? Quite a lot of work was put into that?


Robert Henry Winters: By the old road the hon.
member means the road that was built as a relief project?


Major James William Coldwell: Yes.


Robert Henry Winters: The answer is yes.


Major James William Coldwell: The Bennett road.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I have one question I would like to ask. I do not expect the minister to have all the answers at his fingertips. With respect to the trans-Canada highway, in British Columbia we have a portion of the route between Fry's corner and King George highway. This highway is a main part of the trans-Canada highway within our province. It was built many years ago and is totally inadequate under present conditions.
I notice by the press that the minister's department has informed the provincial government that they are not prepared to reconstruct this portion of the trans-Canada highway, owing to the fact that it requires


paving and, under modern conditions, hard surfacing. This particular portion of the highway serves not only the district that I happen to represent but the entire lower mainland of British Columbia.
That part of the trans-Canada highway was constructed prior to modern road building. Because it affects that forgotten district of Vancouver island to Victoria all the tourists coming into that part of the country-in Victoria our slogan is "Follow the birds"- have to come over this highway.
I am perfectly satisfied to accept any of the minister's decisions as to the amount of traffic on the highway, but what I am particularly concerned about is this. According to press reports the minister's department has said that this must lie in abeyance until normal conditions return. This is the main part of the highway entering into the city of Vancouver; it is a main part of the trans-Canada highway. It is the route adopted by the provincial government and by the federal government, I understand, leading into Vancouver across the Pattullo bridge. I am referring particularly to that part between Fry's corner and the King George highway. Is the minister's department prepared or willing to pay the federal share now for the construction of that piece of the trans-Canada highway according to the qualifications laid down?


Robert Henry Winters: To the best of my knowledge we have had no specific application with respect to that portion of the highway. Under the terms of the agreement the federal government contributes 50 per cent of the cost incurred by the provincial government. Where the highway is within a municipality, the normal arrangement exists for payment of that portion of the cost normally incurred by the municipality, and then the federal government shares the provincial government's cost on the 50-50 basis, under the terms of the agreement.


George Alexander Cruickshank: That brings in something new. Am I given to understand that a municipality is called upon to bear their share of the cost of the trans-Canada highway within that municipality? I want this to be particularly clear because I do not think the people of British Columbia understood it that way. Are we as a municipality called upon to bear a share of the costs of the trans-Canada highway in conjunction with the provincial and federal authorities?


Robert Henry Winters: That is a matter to be determined between the provincial government and the municipality. The federal government undertakes to pay half the cost incurred by the provincial government. If in the

normal arrangement the municipality is required to contribute toward the cost of roads, then that is something between the municipality and the province.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I think that is bringing something new into the trans-Canada highway as I understand it.


Robert Henry Winters: No. If I may answer that I can read the section from the trans-Canada highway agreement. It is section 3 (5) and reads as follows:
If the provincial practice has been to assist the municipality financially in the construction of its highways cr bridges and proposes to follow this practice in regard to the trans-Canada highway, the federal contribution will be considered to an amount not greater than one-half the contribution made by the province. The province, however, must give prior advice to the federal authorities of its intentions in this respect.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The minister has
explained the situation.. Constructing highways in my province is entirely different from constructing highways in the prairie provinces, for example. In the prairie provinces they can construct 20 miles of highway at the same price that it would cost us in British Columbia to construct half a mile. That is known to everyone. As it was explained by the minister I understood that the municipalities would not be called upon to contribute in any way. I wish to make it clear that I did not think they were to contribute to the trans-Canada highway.
The section to which I am referring leads into the third city of Canada. After all, that third city of Canada is entitled to some consideration. From the monetary point of view, the influx of American dollars through the great port of Vancouver means something to the foreign exchange situation in this country. The impression I was given from press reports, rightly or wrongly, was to the effect that the federal government had said that it would not contribute at this time to the rebuilding of any highway. Let me make it clear that that was stated in the press of British Columbia, particularly Vancouver- that the federal government would not contribute to the rebuilding of any highway that called for pavement or hard-surfacing. I believe one of those expressions was used.
To my mind that is a serious statement. I had not intended before to say anything, but I think now I shall have something to say about the matter. I want to have that point cleared up for the constituency of Fraser Valley particularly the municipalities of Chilliwack, Sumas and Matsqui. Are the taxpayers of those municipalities to be asked in any shape or form to contribute to the cost of the construction or reconstruction of the trans-Canada highway?
Supply-Resources and Development


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


George Alexander Cruickshank: No. I have asked a
question.


Robert Henry Winters: I can only say what I have already said, and that is that that is a matter between the provincial government and the municipalities. They will follow their normal practice in that respect.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I appreciate what the
minister has said, that we will have to contribute our normal share, whatever the percentage is. But that is certainly new to me. When I first heard about the trans-Canada highway I had no idea-and I do not think the people throughout the province had any idea-that at the will or whim of the provincial government the individual municipalities could be called upon to contribute a share of the costs of the trans-Canada highway. I do not think the minister is correct in his interpretation, and I think he should bring in another official to check upon it. With the best of intentions I think he is incorrect in his statement. I do not think it was intended for one moment that the municipality within the provinces which the highway passed were to be called upon for one dollar to defray the cost of the trans-Canada highway. I wish the minister would get more authentic and more definite information.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Well, I do not come from the maritime provinces. I come from that great province of British Columbia, where the tourists go. Hon. members may call "carried" all they like; but in my riding the municipalities are not going to be called upon to pay any share of the trans-Canada highway until we have a better definition than has been given to me thus far. I would ask the minister to explain a little more fully.
I know he wants to do the right thing and that the government wants to do the right thing. I believe the provincial governments want to do the right thing. But in my province we have the privilege of saying that we come from the old state of Missouri, from which the president of the United States comes-and I am referring to that old expression, that we are from Missouri. Will the municipalities of Chilliwack, Sumas and Matsqui be called upon to contribute any share toward the cost of the trans-Canada highway?


Charles Edward Johnston: Before the item carries-


George Alexander Cruickshank: Just a minute; I asked a question.


Robert Henry Winters: I repeat that the federal government's agreement is with the provincial governments. I read the section from the

Supply-Resources and Development agreement which covers that particular phase of the operation. I think that is clear. I do not think there is any misunderstanding in the interpretation. My hon. friend may not like the interpretation, but that is a quite different matter. We have undertaken to pay one-half of the cost incurred by the provincial governments. I am sure the government in British Columbia, as well as other governments in the various provinces, will deal fairly with their municipalities. While I do not know whether the municipalities to which my hon. friend referred will be required to pay, I do know that the policy followed by the government of British Columbia is a fair one. I think he can be assured that his municipalities will receive fair consideration.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I know that, so far as the minister is concerned, we will receive fair consideration. I must say however that I did not understand when the act was passed to build the trans-Canada highway that the provinces were to assess the municipalities. I speak for the people I represent. I believe such a procedure would be a very dangerous thing and should not be permitted. It is within the jurisdiction of the provinces to tax or not to tax local landlords.
In other words all hon. members know that a sidewalk or street lights may be placed [DOT]on Sparks street here in Ottawa and benefit the property owners on that street. But to permit the province to tax the taxpayers in a rural municipality is not fair. It may be different out in the middle of Saskatchewan, although I do not think they are very prosperous out there. I do not think the province should assess through the municipal authorities to pay a share of the cost, in conjunction with the provincial and federal authorities. My understanding was that the trans-Canada highway was to be built by the federal and provincial authorities. I did not understand that it involved municipal taxation.
I happen to own a farm. To be frank about it, I have heard something about personal interests entering into things-which they should not, I know. But is my farm to be taxed so as to build the trans-Canada highway through it?
Well, Mr. Chairman, pressure has been brought to bear upon me, and I have confidence enough in the federal minister that it will not be permitted. I have not equal confidence in the ministerial authority within my own province. I have registered my objection and I can say nothing more. All this appeared in the press, including the Vancouver press. It was stated that the federal government would not let them build this section of highway because it was really

a repaving project. The minister can shake his head, but that was in the press where the people of British Columbia could read it. I do not believe everything I read in the press, but I do want to make sure that the people of my riding are protected, not against the press who have always been fair, but against other people who have not been so fair.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I agree with the hon.
member for Fraser Valley that no municipality should have to pay the cost of a trunk highway going through its town. I know this is a provincial matter, as the minister has pointed out, but I submit there should be something in the act to stop the provincial government charging any part of its share of fifty per cent of the cost to any municipality. I am absolutely against this and I have always been against it. I do not think any small municipality or town should have to bear any part of the cost of a trunk highway going through that municipality or town. Very little has been done in New Brunswick with regard to the trans-Canada highway. As our trunk roads are in bad condition I should like to ask if anything is to be done this year.


Robert Henry Winters: I understand that the provincial government of New Brunswick intends to go ahead this year with some of the work on the trans-Canada highway.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Has there been any change
in the route through New Brunswick? I do not agree with the present route up the Saint John river valley because within forty miles there are fourteen railroad crossings which could have been eliminated by going up the opposite side of the river.


Charles Edward Johnston: I am somewhat in agreement with the hon. member who has just taken his seat when he says that we are not making much progress with the construction of this highway. I refer particularly to the new sections, particularly in Ontario, not to sections that are being reconstructed. I was interested in the remarks of the minister about the road from Sudbury to Chapleau being designated as the trans-Canada highway. There was a great deal of talk that the trans-Canada highway would run from Sudbury to Sault Ste. Marie and then north to Port Arthur.	,


Robert Henry Winters: It runs from Sudbury to
Chapleau via Thessalon, which is in the general direction of Sault Ste. Marie.


Charles Edward Johnston: Those of us who have
travelled the road between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie know that there has been a great deal of construction on this section. I

think it would have been possible for them to have completed the road from Sudbury to Sault Ste. Marie this year and progress could have been made in building north to Port Arthur. I think the whole section could be completed within a short time. It does not make much difference how rapidly the other provinces complete their sections of the trans-Canada highway if the section north of the great lakes is not completed. We are losing millions of dollars in tourist trade every year because the road north of the great lakes is not completed. My judgment is that that section is not being built as rapidly as it could be.
I believe the federal government should take steps to see that a province builds so many miles of new trans-Canada highway each year before it qualifies for the grant. By the time the agreement has expired there is bound to be a lot of the highway not completed. Most of the provinces in western Canada will have their sections completed within two or three years at the most, but I venture to predict that the section north of the great lakes in Ontario will not be completed.
The progress made on the new sections of the trans-Canada highway has not been too rapid within the last two or three years. I should like to see the minister get after the department in Ontario that has jurisdiction over the trans-Canada highway and put on a little pressure in an effort to have this section completed. It would be of benefit in increased tourist business as well as from the military point of view. It would enable Canadian citizens going to western Canada to travel an all-Canadian route instead of having to go down through the United States.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I take it that there is no objection to the federal government reconstructing the trans-Canada highway between the King George highway and Fry's corner?


Robert Henry Winters: We have not had representations from the provincial government with respect to that particular section and we would not make a decision until such representations are received.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I presume there would be no objection to the federal government hard-surfacing the trans-Canada highway?


Robert Henry Winters: We propose to carry out the terms of our agreement and I think the province will find us pretty easy to get along with.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Has there been a slowing down of work on the trans-Canada highway in Newfoundland, and has that been done at the suggestion of the Minister of Finance?
Supply-Resources and Development


Robert Henry Winters: As a matter of general policy the federal government has asked the provincial governments-it has taken the same attitude with its own operations-to go forward only with those projects which they consider essential. Of course we have no control over the provincial governments and would not attempt to influence them in any way. We let it be known that that was the policy we were adopting, but at the same time we told the provincial governments that, if they attached a high order of importance to the trans-Canada highway and considered it to be essential to the development of their economy, they would find us willing to co-operate. I know of no slowing down in Newfoundland.


Gordon Francis Higgins: The premier made the statement that he was deliberately slowing down the work at the suggestion of the Minister of Finance. The minister knows very well that this is an extremely important matter to the province and I do hope something will be done by the minister to try to have the premier change his attitude. It is going to be unfortunate if we have to keep on waiting for a road across the island. I think we are safe now in saying there is no necessity for slowing down this work, that it is purely the decision of the premier if he wishes to do so. Is that the situation?


Robert Henry Winters: Well, it is up to the provincial governments to evaluate the importance of this work. I think I should say to the hon. member that in point of work committed Newfoundland stands fourth among the eight provinces participating in this agreement.


Gordon Francis Higgins: That is in work completed?


Robert Henry Winters: No; in work committed.


Gordon Francis Higgins: That is for this year?


Robert Henry Winters: Since the agreement was entered into.


Gordon Francis Higgins: That is the work that has been done, not the new work coming up. Is not the minister aware that the premier has decided not to go ahead? Has he not told you that?


Robert Henry Winters: I have not seen the statement the hon. member attributes to the premier of Newfoundland.


Gordon Francis Higgins: It was published quite openly in the Newfoundland press. There was no necessity for him to do that, was there?


Robert Henry Winters: He can use his own judgment on that.


Gordon Francis Higgins: But there was no pressure from here to make him do it?

Supply-Resources and Development


Robert Fair: I agree with the remarks as to the building of the road through northern Ontario north of the great lakes; but I cannot agree with the route further along, as I did not agree at the time the original route was being mapped out. At that time I pointed out to the minister and others that the highway would be blocked by snow during the winter. Recent storms have proved me right. Apparently it is going to be blocked by snow in the month of June as well. The hon. member for Medicine Hat, the hon. member for Bow River and all the others along that southern route should now admit they were wrong and the government was wrong in following their suggestion to have the highway go through the southern part of the provinces. I am going to suggest now that if that route is still to be followed work should commence immediately on another highway following the Yellowhead route from Winnipeg west to Edmonton. I believe the present defence program demands that this be done. I hope the minister will take very serious notice of this and act accordingly.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I had no intention of getting into this argument until the hon. member for Battle River had his say. We must agree that he tried to have the highway follow the northern route, but I believe the dominion and provincial governments were very wise in putting the trans-Canada highway where they did. If it went through the northern part of the province United States tourists would never get up there. So I am very happy that the road is to go through Medicine Hat.


Mr. Nixon:: I think I would be remiss in my duty if I did not urge the minister to reconsider, with the province, the route designated for the highway north of the great lakes. My riding includes Sault Ste. Marie, which is the gateway used by forty million tourists from the south. If this highway were to go north of Sault Ste. Marie, up around the north shore of lake Superior, I am sure the revenue from the tourist trade alone would more than pay for the construction of the road. Sault Ste. Marie is the only port of entry between Sarnia on the south and the Manitoba boundary on the west. Once more I urge the minister to reconsider if at all possible the route that has been chosen, and have this highway follow the shore north of lake Superior. At present the road is built some eighty miles north of Sault Ste. Marie, and should be continued. While the country I mentioned is rugged, that is one of the main reasons for urging that the road be taken through it, because the ruggedness of the country does attract tourists from the United States.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Has the federal government supervision over this trans-Canada highway, or are they going to let the provinces build it as they please? Who is to have supervision, the provinces or the federal government?


Robert Henry Winters: We are both giving supervision. The provinces are building the road to standards which were mutually agreed upon and which are laid down in the agreement. They have their engineers on the road, and we have our engineers to see that the standards jointly agreed to are maintained.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Are some of the provinces going to be allowed to put off old highways on the federal government to make up their fifty per cent?


Robert Henry Winters: No, sir, they will not.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I understand that is what is being done in New Brunswick.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
404.	To provide for surveys of the trans-Canada highway through national parks, $12,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: In 1949 extensive surveys were made from Rustico harbour across to Robinson's island and on down, and a bridge was to have been built to connect-


Robert Henry Winters: This has to do with the route of the trans-Canada highway through the national parks. What my hon. friend is referring to is not part of the trans-Canada highway.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Was that not the survey of Robinson's island?


Robert Henry Winters: Not for the trans-Canada highway.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: It belongs to the national park.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, but not part of the highway.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Then why did they make the survey there?


Robert Henry Winters: That was part of the national parks construction program.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
406. To recoup the Minister of Finance for advances to be made to the Northwest Territories power commission during the fiscal year 1950-51 for power developments as provided under section 17 (2) of the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act, chapter 64, statutes of 1948, $110,000.
Mr. Hodgson:: Would the minister explain this item. It shows an increase of $80,000, and the explanation given on page 401 is the same as in the item itself.


Robert Henry Winters: Under the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act, which as my

hon. friend knows was extended last year by the action of parliament to embrace the iTukon as well, the federal government is empowered to build power plants in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon on a basis under which the crown recovers its money. Advances are made, and this is a repayment to the Minister of Finance of advances made against these projects. It is ill recoverable.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Northern administration and lands branch-
Forest conservation and wildlife management, including Wood Buffalo park-
412. Operation and maintenance, $276,633.
Agar Rodney Adamson: I would like to ask a question concerning wildlife services. I do not know whether this was brought up on the national parks estimates or on any previous occasion, but I would like to know what is being done by this department, if anything, in connection with predator control. I mention this because of the serious damage that is done to our game animals iby the predators, particularly wolves. As I mentioned' before, these wolves are protected in the national parks; they increase rapidly; they form gangs or packs of killers, and do enormous damage both inside and outside the parks. I had hoped the policy of the department would be altered so that wolves and certain other predators could be shot within the national parks, but that has not been done. It has been decided by those in charge of national parks and by others, that in order to preserve their game, predator control is one of the most important measures they can take. Predators do infinitely more damage to game, animals than overshooting or overhunting. I do not know whether this question has been brought up before, but if it has I apologize. I did not hear it. If it has not, will the minister make a statement?


Robert Henry Winters: The matter has not been brought up this year, but it was brought up last year. I well remember the hon. member referring to it in an interesting way when the estimates were before the house. The problem, which receives a great deal of attention from that branch of the department, is one of trying to maintain a proper balance, which often is a matter of judgment. In the national parks in particular, part of our job is to maintain the park area in its natural state, having regard to (both vegetation and wildlife. We are trying, by various means, to maintain a proper balance. We have provided for the payment of bounties and taken other measures from time to time for the killing of predators as the situation warranted. We take whatever steps seem to be indicated, in
28, 1951	4843
Supply-Resources and Development the light of conditions as they are found, to maintain the proper balance of predators to other types of wildlife.


Donald MacInnis: I wish first of all to commend the minister for the program announced earlier in the year in connection with forest conservation. I believe that forest conservation is one of the most important types of conservation of our natural resources. I am sorry that the estimate for this year is down considerably from last year.


Robert Henry Winters: Might I raise a point of order to remind my hon. friend that he might more properly discuss that item under vote 416. This vote No. 412 is for forest conservation and wildlife management, including Wood Buffalo park.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forestry branch-
416. Branch administration, $81,971.
Donald MacInnis: I note that the amount for operation and maintenance is considerably up from last year, which in my opinion is all to the good. I come from a province which, perhaps at this date, is one of the best forested provinces in Canada. But I am quite satisfied that during the past decade we have been losing more by cutting, fires and insects than we are making up by natural growth. This state of affairs cannot continue for very long. So far as we in British Columbia are concerned the depletion of our forests would be a national calamity, because a large amount of our revenue comes from that source. I realize that only a small proportion of forest conservation could, of necessity, come under the jurisdiction of the minister's department. I would urge him to continue trying to get the provinces, particularly those of them that have not realized the dangerous situation confronting us, to put more and more effort into conservation. Then, instead of taking more out of our forests each year than comes back through natural growth, the natural growth will more than meet the depletion.
There is a great deal that could be said on this subject, but I am not going to take up the time of the committee at the moment. The benefits of forest conservation are not limited to the forest, but they extend to the whole economy of our country. I would commend the minister for what he has done, and urge him to approach this subject with real effort and determination.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
419. Forestry operations division, including forest insects control board, $63,858.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Can the minister say if his department is doing anything in regard to
4844	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development the army worm or tent caterpillar as it is called, which has covered nearly all of Ontario this year, killing trees. I know that oak trees that have been infested with the worm for the last two years have died. Poplar, elm and birch trees are dead from the effects of these worms.


Robert Henry Winters: The problem of studying the army worm or tent caterpillar, and insects of that kind, is the responsibility federally of the science service of the Department of Agriculture.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Can the minister say if the Department of Agriculture is doing anything about it? Last year the Minister of Agriculture said that these caterpillars would not kill the trees, but that was wrong because the trees are dead. Surely, one of the departments must be doing something about them. This is the forestry branch, and surely insects must come under that branch. The description of the vote is, "Forestry operations division, including forest insects control board."


Robert Henry Winters: This is a vote that was set up to provide for administration of the dominion-provincial operations that I announced earlier in the house under the Canada Forestry Act. But a portion of the vote is for the forest insects control board, and this is a small vote of $3,600 which is for travelling expenses in connection with the operations of that board.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is not necessary to provide for any travelling expenses for the caterpillars, because they travel under their own power.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: As to this matter of insect control, this department is, I would say, responsible for a certain amount of the control of insects, especially the caterpillar and also of the grub that eats or kills the birch in New Brunswick. Because of the fact that great timber areas in the various provinces are close to each other, if one province does something and the other one does not, the action does not have the effect it should have. We should therefore have, coming from the dominion, some control of the tent caterpillar, the birch worm and the sawfly. I think that is the proper place for it to come from because we have a good, young minister who is full of energy. I think he should take this matter up with the provinces and do something that will really produce an effect.


Heber Harold Hatfield: This is an extremely important item, Mr. Chairman. The budworm has killed practically all the birch in the province of New Brunswick.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: And it is coming into Quebec and Ontario now.


Heber Harold Hatfield: As my hon. friend says, it is now coming up into Quebec and Ontario. If something is not done, a great Canadian industry will be put out of business. Practically all of the birch mills and the hardwood mills in New Brunswick have been closed down on account of this worm. Something must be done. Instead of this item being lowered, in my opinion it should be increased. We must do something about this problem. This infestation will cover Ontario and Quebec in a few years if it is not stopped.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And it will kill the tourist traffic undoubtedly because there will not be any trees for the tourists in Ontario or in any other part of the country.


Robert Henry Winters: As I told my hon. friend earlier, this is a matter that is dealt with by the science service of the Department of Agriculture. We assist them where we can and to the extent that we can.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Will the minister say that he will take the matter up with the Department of Agriculture and see that something is done about it?


Robert Henry Winters: I shall be glad to take the matter up with them. I cannot guarantee that something will be done about it, but I will take it up with them.


Mr, Fraser:: We should not have the thing tossed around. Somebody has to do something.


Robert Henry Winters: They have the vote.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: It seems to me that this matter is still left in an unsatisfactory position. I am not undertaking to say what the division of duties is; but we have really a very slight acceptance of responsibility, if indeed any, by the present minister. Yet this is a thing that stares us in the face. It is something for which some minister ought to be made fully responsible now, so that we cannot have it just tossed around from place to place.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Carried under protest.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I understood the minister
to say that part of this money was for the administration of the forestry act. May I ask whether, under that act which amongst other things provides for research, there has been any research-in recent months or indeed since the act was put through the house- into the question of the part played by tailor-made cigarettes in causing forest fires? As the minister will recall, I raised this matter a number of times. I do not want to repeat the speeches that I made on those occasions, but I still feel that it is a subject concerning

which some useful and valuable research might be done. There is no doubt in my mind that, with regard to our forests, greater danger is created by tailor-made cigarettes than by any other kind. Indeed I believe they are the cause of a great many fires, in our cities as well as in our forests. It seems to me that something might be done with regard to the chemicals, either in the tobacco itself or in the paper, to make sure that the cigarettes do not produce quite so much danger. My question is this. Has there been any research by the branch with regard to this matter?


Robert Henry Winters: The department has done no active research in the matter. I well remember my hon. friend raising the subject last year. The cigarette manufacturers are aware of the problem and are trying, by means of advertising, to undertake a program of fire prevention. I am well aware of my hon. friend's representations and I will keep them in mind.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What the minister says is quite correct, namely that since we raised this matter in the house on a number of occasions, the cigarette companies have been spending money on advertising campaigns in the interests of fire prevention. But I have seen no report from them indicating that they have done anything with regard to changing their product so that the tailor-made cigarette in itself would be of less danger to our forests.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They are doing research work.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am glad to note that the minister says he is aware of the problem. I hope that he will see to it that some research work is done by the department at an early date.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No, Mr. Chairman, I want to revert to this matter and just draw the minister's attention again to the wording of this item. I want to ask him what those words mean. The item reads:
Forestry operations division, including forest insects control board.
Do those words mean what they say? Is there a forest insects control board? Is it under the Department of Resources and Development or is it to be tossed back to the Department of Agriculture?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the board is an advisory board which was set up in 1945 under the direction of the minister of reconstruction for the specific purpose of investigating into and trying to determine methods of control of the spruce budworm. Since that time it has continued as an advisory board
Supply-Resources and Development under the direction of the Minister of Resources and Development. What I said was that the science service, which is responsible for doing something about the problem, is in the Department of Agriculture.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No. I still do not feel that this matter is left in a satisfactory shape. Does the minister say that the Department of Agriculture definitely deals with forest insects control or does he just say that he does not do it and that therefore presumably it is done by the Department of Agriculture? Does he tell us that the Department of Agriculture assumes full responsibility for this matter?


Robert Henry Winters: No. What I say-and it is what I said previously-is that there is an advisory board known as the forest insects control board which reports to me, but that there is another service in the Department of Agriculture known as the science service-the science service of the Department of Agriculture-which has laboratories and which has assumed the responsibility-and had done so before my time in this department-for investigating into measures for controlling insects.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That also seems to leave the matter at a loose end: investigating into measures for controlling insects. We are interested in something more than investigation. We want to know what happens after the investigation. If the minister is not prepared to state that someone is responsible for action, I suggest that this item stand over, that he might speak to the Minister of Agriculture and let us know where we are; because at the present time we are just going down the garden path and getting nowhere.


Gordon Graydon: What we want to know is: What do we do and who does it?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: We want to know who controls what.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: No, it does not carry. I think we should be entitled to know, as the hon. member for Peel has just said, whose job this is. At the present time we have not got past the suggestion of a scientific interest that somebody presumably is taking. We want much more than that.


Heber Harold Hatfield: It has nothing to do with agriculture.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: As the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton says, it really has nothing to do with agriculture; at least not to the ordinary, common-sense man.
4846	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Robert Henry Winters: Is there a question to be answered?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am pointing out what I think is an unsatisfactory situation. I am asking the minister if he will let this item stand, and if he will speak to the Minister of Agriculture so that we can have some assurance that somebody is responsible for doing something here.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not think that is warranted. Although my hon. friend does not understand it, the line of responsibility is clear. There is an advisory board set up which is responsible to this department. There is a separate service in the Department of Agriculture which has laboratory facilities and which were added to as the result of the work of the insects control board. It investigates into matters respecting the control of insects. My hon. friend asks: who does something if they find something? Well, that sort of control is a matter for provincial governments which have the responsibility for the resources. The arrangement would be, if science service found something such as a spray or some other means, it would be made generally available to anybody who is responsible for the operation and conservation of forests. It seems to me that the arrangement is quite clear.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: That is the point I tried
to bring out a few moments ago. Something should be done by this department of the dominion government. If the province of Ontario does something and Quebec does not, this is what happens. You have areas of timber lying side by side. You kill the bugs on one side of the line today and tomorrow it is infested again from the other side. That is the reason why this should be a dominion government job.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I understand that
British Columbia has been brought into this. This is the way we solved it. We have insects in British Columbia.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I was waiting for that
laughter, Mr. Chairman.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: That is an unkind way to
speak of your own party.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The way we solved it
was that on June 27, 1949, we brought in legislation universally across Canada to take care of it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
423. Grant to Pulp and Paper Research Institute of Canada, $100,000.
Heber Harold Hatfield: The pulp and paper mills
have their own laboratories. What is this vote for?


Robert Henry Winters: This is an operation in Montreal, Mr. Chairman. It is located on the premises of McGill university. There was an arrangement which at the outset involved participation of the federal government, the pulp and paper institute and McGill university. It was rather a complicated arrangement and the responsibilities were not clearly defined. Last year there was a re-organization, and the federal government's responsibility is now limited to a grant. This is the grant for that purpose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian government travel bureau
[Stage Direction]
426. To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,503,197.
Joseph Warner Murphy: This deals with the Canadian government travel bureau, and is an item involving over $ 1 .j million. I must say that this is one item of the minister's department that I do not look at with any great degree of satisfaction, and I do not think that any hon. member does. We in this country have a great deal to offer to the tourist. As we all know, this particular part of the present minister's department has been kicked around like a football ever since it was initiated under a former administration. What alarms me, Mr. Chairman, is some of the returns which I have. I say this in view of the increased amount of money spent on the tourist industry in every country that enjoys a tourist industry.
According to the return I received a few days ago, I find that in 1950 the estimated tourist revenue for Canada was $275 million. The other item in the return which also concerns me is the advertising which went to Cockfield Brown advertising agency, namely, $921,925.10. I am putting these figures up against the total revenue in 1948 of $280 million and in 1949 of $288 million. In other words, in 1950 we dropped some $13 million at a time when the tourist industry in the United States, France, Switzerland and elsewhere was very much increased. If I were to look at these figures as a businessman, as I think the minister should, and see what they reflect, I do not think I would hesitate very long before doing something about them.
I have spoken on this subject at great length at different times. I do not intend to take up a great deal of time at this moment discussing it, but I am going to suggest to the minister that he might well consider some of the suggestions that have been made from outside the house in the last four or

five years relative to an increase in this industry. We want United States dollars. We on this continent have more to offer than any other country, and yet our tourist industry is going down instead of up. More money was spent last year on the tourist industry elsewhere than ever before. Our revenue decreased, yet we have greater accommodation available and more roads. I do not think we got our fair share of the tourist dollar that was spent last year. I know that the minister has various branches in his department, but I am saying quite sincerely that we should develop a billion dollar industry in this country and not a $280 million industry. Switzerland gets close to a billion dollars from the tourist industry. It is her main source of revenue, but she has not one-tenth of what we have to offer, nor has she the number of people so close to her borders. We are living next door to more than 150 million people who are vacation-minded, and who would be glad to come to this country.
I want to conclude with this point. When the minister and his department face these figures let them face them with reality and realize that there is something wrong when they cannot produce more revenue in this branch of the department.


Major James William Coldwell: When hon. members put questions on the order paper and an order for return is passed, that return should contain the information which is asked for. I placed a question on the order paper, which was passed as an order for return by the house, asking for expenditures of government departments for advertising during the fiscal year 1949-50. When I got the return I found that practically all the departments had given me pretty detailed statements of the amounts expended in advertising. But the Department of Resources and Development was quite conspicuous by its answers to the questions. I found the Department of Resources and Development advertising placed with Cockfield Brown and Company Limited, Montreal, Quebec; and two, the amount, nil. No amounts paid. The answer said that they work on commission from magazines and newspapers in accordance with established agency practice. But obviously the information was available in the department because when I turned up the public accounts and saw how vote 383 of that year was expended on the Canadian government travel bureau I found advertising and publicity. I find that under "advertising and publicity" note A includes payments to Cockfield Brown and Company Limited, Montreal, $910,567.92, and national
Supply-Resources and Development film board, $56,020.25. The total spent for advertising reported altogether was $977,067.15.
It seems to me that when a member of the house puts a motion for a return asking a department to give the expenditure in regard to any estimate, the return should give the information requested. I found it in the public accounts. It seems to me that Cockfield Brown and Company are receiving very large advertising fees from this government, very large commissions therefor for the magazines and periodicals. And when we know who is the representative of Cockfield Brown in this city-the national secretary, I believe, of the Liberal association- it seems to me that they are getting a very large amount of advertising, and that the commission is very considerable.
But what I am objecting to is that when I place a motion for a return showing certain expenditures, the return made in the house indicates nil. Yet when I look up the public accounts I find nearly $1 million given as the expenditure. The house has a right to expect that when it passes an order for return, no matter who moves it, the information will be brought down, and brought down in full; and that we will not have to turn to some other document and find that instead of nil the expenditure is almost $1 million. As I say, this was not the case with the other departments of government. This department was conspicuous because it did not do what the other departments of government did when they were asked to fill in answers by the Secretary of State for the return tabled in the house.
I say that because I think when on another occasion one moves an order for return of this description he is entitled to at least the same information as is provided in the blue book, the public accounts.
While I am on my feet I want to say that with its limited means the travel or tourist bureau is doing a commendable job. I think a better one could be done, and I think it could be better if there were more supervision by the provinces of the accommodation provided tourists when they come to Canada. I think that much of the tourist accommodation outside private homes is rather primitive. Americans who come to Canada go back with a very bad impression of our sanitary arrangements, and very often a bad impression of the general conditions of tourist accommodation.
It used to be that in some provinces our roads were a barrier to bringing tourists to the country; but to a large extent that is no longer true. Some of the roads into this country from the south are now equal to

Supply-Resources and Development anything they have in the United States. I am glad to say that in the last six years my own province of Saskatchewan has done a tremendous job in that respect. But today it is tourist accommodation that is required, and I think that in respect of both living accommodation and the provision of food the department could do a great deal to encourage the provinces-and here I blame the provinces to some extent-to give closer supervision to the type of tourist accommodation offered, and particularly the sanitary conveniences and arrangements in connection with those places.
Today people will not come to this country unless they can get something comparable to that which they are able to get in their own country. I said "something comparable"; I do not mean that in a country like this, with our great distances and our smaller population, we can give them altogether the type of accommodation they get in the United States. But I think if the department brought more pressure to bear on the provincial authorities to see that at least sanitary arrangements were better, it would help our tourist business considerably.
I think, too, that a great deal more could be done by way of advertising Canada in the United States. I am not offering any suggestions, but the amounts we allow the tourist bureau are not large. I hope more can be done to encourage people to come and see this very magnificent country. I know that a great deal of country has been opened up in Ontario, Nova Scotia, the maritime provinces, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, where there is beautiful scenery, splendid fishing and hunting, and all the rest of it.
An. hon. Member: And Quebec, too.


Major James William Coldwell: Quebec, too. I am sorry I overlooked that, because Quebec offers much that the other provinces cannot give. When you step into the city of Quebec you step into old France; and that has charm for tourists which cannot be duplicated anywhere else in Canada. When I spoke I was thinking of the opening up of the wilder parts of the country.


James Sinclair: Fraser valley.


Major James William Coldwell: A great deal more can be done by the department with respect of the convenience and attractiveness of our country generally. However, I rose particularly to criticize, rather than to suggest. I believe the minister is anxious to comment on what I have said.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, I do wish to answer a criticism which I am sure was made in good

faith, and which I shall answer in good faith. This question was put on the order paper by the hon. member: In the fiscal year 1949-50 what firms have supplied or contracted to supply advertising and publicity for each of the government departments and agencies and, secondly, what amounts were paid for these services to each of these firms in the fiscal year 1949-50? The answer to the first part of the question was Cockfield Brown and Company Limited of Montreal, and the answer to the second part was nil, that they worked on a commission from magazines and newspapers in accordance with established agency practices.


Major James William Coldwell: All the other departments gave the information.


Robert Henry Winters: But not under similar conditions. The arrangement is that the agency lets advertising to magazines and newspapers which, in turn, submit bills to the agency for the amount of space in the magazines or newspapers. Those bills are submitted to us and paid. The service charge for the agency is paid on the basis of commissions from the magazines and newspapers, and not by the department or the federal government.
Just to convince my hon. friend that we are not trying to conceal anything I would refer him to sessional paper 148A for Monday, March 19, 1951, in respect of a question by the hon. member for Lambton West, in which he asked what amount had been spent for advertising by the Canadian government travel bureau during 1950 in, first, Canada and, second, the United States, and also what advertising concerns were engaged. There are other questions and answers. In reply we stated that there was nothing spent in Canada; that $921,925.10 was spent in the United States, and the advertising agency concerned was Cockfield Brown and Company Limited, Montreal. The information is there; it is a matter of public knowledge.


Major James William Coldwell: It is in the public accounts, but it should be in the return.


Robert Henry Winters: It is a matter of interpretation. I interpreted it one way and the hon. member meant it to be interpreted another way.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to commend the minister and pay a tribute to the director in charge of this branch. I think he is doing a wonderful job for Canada. It is not very often I have the privilege of praising a so-called bureaucrat but I do it in this instance. We have no flagpole sitters in the Fraser valley.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

National parks branch-
National parks and historic sites services-
773. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $219,000.
Robert Henry Winters: When item No. 368 of the estimates of the department was before the committee on June 8, 1951, the hon. member for Cumberland asked certain questions about contracts in Cape Breton national park during the fiscal years 1948-49, 1949-50 and 1950-51. In particular he sought information about the fee involved and the total amount of contracts awarded to the Fundy Construction Company for each of those three years. Much of the information sought was given in reply to a question asked earlier by the hon. member for Cumberland as reported on pages 1372 and 1373 of Hansard of March 19, 1951.
In 1948-49 tenders were invited and the Fundy Construction Company submitted the lowest tender on the basis of rentals of equipment and fixed fee. The total amount paid to the contractor was $413,101.15, including the fixed fee of $24,500, rentals for contractors' equipment, materials and supplies and labour.
In 1949-50 tenders were invited but the Fundy Construction Company was the only company to submit a bid. The fixed fee involved was $22,620 on an estimated expenditure of $377,500. This contract was extended for additional work estimated to cost $90,000. The fixed fee for this extension was $5,400. A further extension involved the building of the Cheticamp bridge, in the amount of $38,882 and a fee of $2,332.88.
In 1950-51 tenders were invited and three firms submitted bids. The tender of the Fundy Construction Company contained the lowest fixed fee in the amount of $20,000. The total amount paid to the contractor including the fixed fee of $20,000 was $930,563.44.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering and water resources branch-
Projects division -
775.	To provide for a contribution to the cost of constructing a mining road between Black bay and Ace lake in Saskatchewan in accordance with the terms of an agreement to be entered into between Canada and the province of Saskatchewan, $50,000.
William Moore Benidickson: Is this on a percentage basis and, if so, what is the percentage?


Robert Henry Winters: It is on a percentage basis and the federal government share is one-third.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Trans-Canada highway division-
776.	Notwithstanding the Trans-Canada Highway Act, to authorize and provide for payment to the
Supply-Resources and Development provinces of British Columbia and New Brunswick, which have entered into an agreement with Canada for construction of a part of the trans-Canada highway, in respect of construction of the highway carried out between December 10, 1949, and the day on which these provinces respectively signed the agreement with Canada, in accordance with the regulations of the governor in council; the amount paid to each province, however, not to exceed fifty per centum of the cost to the province of the said construction as determined by the governor in council; the maximum amount authorized to be expended by section 7 of the Trans-Canada Highway Act to be decreased to the extent of any amount paid pursuant to this vote, $210,000.
Heber Harold Hatfield: I should like to have this item explained as I notice it covers British Columbia and New Brunswick.


Robert Henry Winters: This item is to cover interim payments. The act received the royal assent on December 10, 1949, and it was not possible to enter into agreements with the respective provinces until some months subsequent. The act enabled us to pay moneys in respect to contracts entered into after the signing of the agreement and it therefore became necessary to put a vote in the estimates to cover the period of time between the time the act received the royal assent and the contracts were signed with the provinces.


Heber Harold Hatfield: How much to New Brunswick?


Robert Henry Winters: Of that amount, the estimate for New Brunswick is $200,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forestry branch-
Forestry operations division, including forest insects control board-
783. To provide for contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory and reforestation in accordance with agreements to be entered into by Canada and the provinces, $1,023,000.
Mr. Gibson:: Have the provincial governments applied for grants under this heading?


Robert Henry Winters: After I announced this
program in the house there was a dominion-provincial conference called at which we discussed arrangements which might ultimately become the basis of agreement. That agreement has been put in draft form and sent to the provincial governments. While it has not been finalized, progress is being made. I understand that the provinces intend to take advantage of this; at least most of them have signified that they will.


Mr.   Baler@: Has Saskatchewan indicated
that?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, Saskatchewan has
indicated that it wishes to co-operate and participate fully.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Resources and Development Loans, investments and advances-
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
824. To provide for the restoration of the special account in the consolidated revenue fund established by section 35 of the National Housing Act by the amount paid out of the special account in respect of housing projects undertaken jointly with the governments of the provinces during the fiscal year 1950-51, $1,500,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: This is a supplementary
item with regard to section 35 of the National Housing Act and I should like to say a few words and indicate the increasing seriousness of the housing problem and the increasing difficulty people have getting housing accommodation. This fact was brought to my attention by a resident of Winnipeg who sent me a questionnaire which had been sent to him in response to his effort to obtain an apartment being built in one of the suburbs of Winnipeg. I might say that I have checked with the department and I want to make it clear that the builder of this block is not getting any assistance under the National Housing Act or in any other way from the government.
I should like to draw attention to this questionnaire in order to indicate how difficult it is for some people to get housing accommodation and to indicate the sort of questions that some landlords are asking before they will rent premises. This questionnaire was addressed to a person-a person whom I know-who was seeking accommodation and it is signed by the man who was building the block. It starts with the usual questions as to name and address and then the applicant is asked to state his nationality. I do not like that kind of question. Then several other questions are asked and then these follow:
Are children included in your plans for next three years?
You understand and agree to automatic cancellation and vacation in the advent of a family?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Shocking.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I note the interjection from the hon. member for Kamloops and others that questions like these are shocking. I suggest that this sort of questionnaire should be condemned. It indicates the difficulties that people are having in getting housing accommodation.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Was that built with government assistance?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I made it quite clear that this block is being put up by a private individual and that I had checked with the department to ascertain whether he had obtained any government assistance. He is getting no help under the National Housing Act. My point is that this demonstrates just how serious the situation is. I think this kind

of thing should be condemned. I think the minister will agree with me that people should not be asked questions like that in order to obtain housing accommodation, and I gather that he does agree with me. The questionnaire continues:
Would you be willing to sign a three-year lease?
Would you favour three months advance payment of rent, two months being credited to your last two months tenure?
That is quite a price to pay to get into an apartment. You pay the first month's rent and then pay for the last two months you will be in the suite; and apparently, from the other questions, the length of time you are there depends upon the arrival of a family. Then the next question is:
Would you consider six months prepayment?
The next question is one I would approve, though some hon. members might object to it.
Are you prepared to live and entertain in moderation?


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Stanley Howard Knowles: And then:
Are you prepared to accept responsibility for property damage, other than normal wear and depreciation?
Are you willing to pay $80 per month for a wall-to-wall carpeted three-rocm suite, and $5 per month for garage accommodation?
The last sentence is:
A prompt return of this questionnaire will expedite the problem of allotment of available accommodation.
I may say this is a genuine document, addressed to a person who had applied for accommodation and signed by the owner of the block.


Major James William Coldwell: Who signed it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The owner of a new apartment block-the Marner block-in St. James, Manitoba. As I have said already, I have raised this matter for two reasons; first, because I think that sort of questionnaire should be condemned and discouraged, and second because this underlines how serious the problem is. So I hope the minister and his department will greatly expand their plans in the field of housing.
In driving out the Montreal road a few days ago I was interested to note a very substantial building going up, which I had not seen before. I wondered what it was, and I discovered it is to be the head office of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. It is quite a project; it will be quite a substantial building, and this indicates to me that the government recognizes that it is in this business of housing for keeps. I hope they will not just play around with it but will really deal with this matter as the serious and important social problem it is.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


The Deputy Chairman:: There are only two items left to complete this department, items 253 and 254 on page 37. Shall these items carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is the minister not going to make a statement on the film board?


Robert Henry Winters: If hon. members wish I will be glad to make a short statement at eight o'clock.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.



AFTEH RECESS

[Stage Direction]
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, in introducing the estimates of the national film board for the current year, it might be helpful to hon. members if I made a brief statement; having in mind particularly the reorganization of the board which took place last year, and its results. '
It will be remembered that, on March 29, 1950, I tabled a report on the national film board by Messrs. J. D. Woods and Gordon Limited, a firm of business consultants. The recommendations made in this report fell into two main categories; (a) those which could be implemented without legislative authority, and (b) those requiring legislative authority before they could be implemented.
In presenting the estimates for the board last year, I informed hon. members of progress with respect to the recommendations in the first category. These have been largely implemented. In particular, I would like to draw attention of hon. members to the consolidation of production services which had been effected.
Following a detailed study by the board of all the activities in which it was engaged, three of these activities were transferred to other departments or agencies where the functions will have more logical application. The displays division has now been taken over by the exhibitions branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce, while the posters and design section and the microfilming section have been absorbed by the king's printer. As a result, the board's activities are now concentrated on the production of films, filmstrips, and still pictures. Furthermore, all three types of production have been placed under one director of production. This
Supply-Resources and Development has resulted in a closer integration of the three services and a reduction in administrative overhead.
In regard to recommendations requiring legislative authority, hon. members will recall that a new National Film Act was enacted by parliament in June of last year. This act:
(a)	Clearly defined the functions of the board.
(b)	Clearly established the board's responsibility to parliament through a designated minister of the crown,
(c)	and reconstituted the board on a basis making it possible to carry out its functions efficiently.
The new National Film Act was proclaimed on October 14 of last year at Which date the new board members took office. We were extremely fortunate in securing the services of the following members, all of whom have great ability as well as wide and varied experience: Mr. Charles S. Band, Toronto, Ont.; Mrs. A. L. Caldwell, Saskatoon, Sask.; Mr. Gratien Gelinas, Montreal, Que.; Mr. A. D. P. Heeney, under secretary of state for external affairs, Ottawa; Mr. Stuart Keate, Victoria, B.C.; Dr. Arthur MacNamara, deputy minister of labour, Ottawa; Mr. Charles Stein, under secretary of state, Ottawa; Dr. Albert W. Trueman, Fredericton, N.B.
I wish to take this opportunity of thanking them for the constructive, energetic and enthusiastic manner in which they have applied themselves to the board's affairs.
As a result of the changes which have taken place, the board's operating efficiency has improved and production has increased while staff has decreased.
Hon. members will be interested in the following comparisons between the operations of last year and those of the preceding year:
As of March 31, 1950, the board's actual working force stood at 577. On March 31, 1951, this force stood at 533, a reduction of approximately 8 per cent.
During the fiscal year recently concluded the board completed 187 film projects of which 130 were full length films of one reel or more. The previous year's figures were 177 and 125 respectively. Production of filmstrips increased from 33 to 48.
The total footage processed by the motion picture laboratory increased 5-4 per cent with a reduction in staff of 7 per cent. The total laboratory output of 11,278,000 feet was the highest for any year since the board was established in 1939.
There were substantial increases in all phases of the distribution field. For example, television bookings increased by 260 per cent.
4852	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development
Members may be interested to learn that, as of May this year, the board had in distribution 62,264 prints, of which 34,017 were in Canada and 28,247 abroad.
There has been a healthy growth in the number of film councils which co-operate with the board in distributing films non-theatrically throughout the dominion. There are now 338 film councils in which 6,670 organizations hold membership. These are serviced by 310 film libraries and the board's non-theatrical films are regularly shown at some 3,300 points across Canada.
The board won nineteen film awards during the year. Six of these were won at the Canadian film awards while the other thirteen were won in countries outside Canada such as the United States, the United Kingdom, and Italy. Members will have seen some of these films during the screenings which are held weekly in one of the committee rooms of the parliament buildings in both English and French.
In presenting the estimates of the board for 1951-52, it will be noted that this year the total figure submitted is $2,602,066, an increase over the preceding year of $307,525. Hon. members will find on page 278 of the estimates the details of services under the various headings of administration, production and distribution.
The increase to which I have referred is occasioned by three factors: (a) The general salary revision which, in the case of the film board, required an additional annual expenditure of $145,000. (b) An increase of $30,000 in the cost of supplies largely resulting from price increases, (c) An item of $250,000 for the introduction of a new international information film program known as the "Freedom Speaks Program." It will be noted that these increases total $425,000-a considerably larger amount than the increased vote asked. This means that the proposed new program, in considerable measure, will be financed through cut-backs in the board's operations.
The primary purpose of the "Freedom Speaks Program" is to try to reflect to peoples of other countries something of the values which we, as a free people, believe to be basic in a democratic society. We propose to employ film as a means not only of depicting and publicizing those principles for which we stand, but of helping at the same time to promote the mutual understanding and solidarity of the free nations.
The program's subject matter will be drawn from the everyday pursuits of Canadians In their work and worship, in their homes


and schools, in their social and political relationships. It will present the drama of ordinary people in a democracy and its approach will be realistic and honest.
To make an interpretative statement on film of the Canadian way of life is by no means easy, but I believe that, in the national film board, there is the capacity and vision to meet this test. Another important factor, when contemplating the possible success of such a program, is that the work of the film board is held in high esteem abroad.
In conclusion, I should like to say that the figures which I mentioned earlier relating to the improvement in output and services indicate the increased efficiency which the new legislation and the new administration of the national film board have achieved. I hope hon. members will share my view that this has been a year of progress and improvement for the board.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I wish to thank the minister for his statement, and I agree with him in regard to the improvement in the board during the year. I think there has been improvement, but there is still room for improvement in that board.


An hon. Member:: Are you never satisfied?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No, I am not. I feel that everything can improve, even ourselves.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Even Peterborough?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Even Peterborough, yes, which is the most beautiful city in Canada. The minister mentioned the fact that the poster section and the microfilm section had been transferred to other departments. Later on I should like the minister to say what savings there would be to the film board as a result of that.
The estimates of the film board are up approximately $307,000. In the Ottawa Journal of Monday, June 4, this item appeared:
John Statton, 23, 38 Eddy street, Hull, and his companion, Joan Hossack, 27, 22 Glendale avenue, escaped serious injury early Sunday morning when the "drive-yourself" car in which they ware travelling east went out of control on Carling avenue at Archibald street, rolled over and crashed into a culvert.
Statton had borrowed the car from a fellow national film board employe, Donald Welder, who had rented the vehicle on behalf of the film board.
Both Statton and Miss Hossack were taken to Ottawa Civic hospital with minor injuries but were released after treatment. The car was damaged to the extent of $1,000.


Robert Henry Winters: What was the date of that
item?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That was June 4. That
accident would therefore have happened over the week end. I should like to know

who in the film board is entitled to hire automobiles or "drive-yourself" cars to use as they like over a week end or at any other time and, on top of that, if they cannot use them themselves, pass them out to other friends. I was dumbfounded, and so were many others, to see that report in the paper. If it is true I personally feel that the person who got that car should be put out of the film board. That is something that is just as bad as it can be. The minister might tell us who is going to pay the bill.
The minister also mentioned that some 11,500 feet of film were produced during the year.


Robert Henry Winters: Eleven million.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is right; 11,500,000 feet.
Can the minister tell us what the wastage was in that amount? I should also like to know what the film board was paid for the T.V. production. I should like to know what they were paid by the film companies or the theatres for that production.
The minister spoke of awards. I have here the Motion Picture Herald of April 7, 1951, and it has this to say:
"They say" the movies are very educational. We have immediately at hand an announcement of a release entitled "Fiddle De Dee" made at the National Film Board of Canada and declared by the International Film Bureau, Inc., of Chicago, to be "perhaps the best known and most widely acclaimed film by Norman McLaren." That could be. "It was awarded first place in music and arts at the world film festival in Chicago"-ever hear of it?-"and was a prize winner of a recent Brussels film festival."
Now some technical details: "Celluloid dyes, inks and transparent paints were applied directly to the film. Often both sides were painted . . . the surfaces were stippled, scratched, pressed with cloths while the paint was wet . . . The musical accompaniment is 'Listen to the Mocking Bird' played by a folk fiddler . . ."
It is in colour, 16mm, four minutes and the print is yours for only $29.75. At the same price you can have a print of "Hen Hop," which it is said "children inevitably enjoy." Drawings made on film with a pen.
Then the Motion Picture Herald says this:
Wonder how many of the taxpayers of the great dominion of Canada know what is going on?
Evidently they feel that was a waste of the taxpayers' money. I should also like to know if the national film board is contemplating a building in Ottawa or any place else at the present time. I understand that down at Tunney's Pasture the film board have property to put up a building on. Will the minister say something about that?


Robert Henry Winters: With respect to the automobile accident, all .1 can say at this time is that the matter is under investigation. I was not aware of the full details of the
Supply-Resources and Development accident, but I am assured that the matter is being looked into.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What will happen to the
people that were interested in it?


Mr. Ferrie:: Oh, do not be too hard on
him.


Robert Henry Winters: We want to find out the
details first of all. I can assure the hon. member that those involved will be dealt with in relation to the misdemeanour, if any, involved. I do not know the circumstances, and I should not like to commit myself beyond that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Before the minister leaves
that subject, may I ask who is authorized to rent these cars or to take them out in the name of the film board when they are not used by the film board but are used for joy rides?


Robert Henry Winters: As the hon. member for Peterborough West says, it was a you-drive-it car, as I think they are called, and it was used by some of the film board on location. Of course, nobody is authorized to have an accident with automobiles. As I have said, I will be very glad-indeed I will consider it to be my duty to do so-to look into the matter and to see that appropriate action is taken.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That was not on location. This car was lent to this other fellow; it was transferred from one to another.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: Let the minister find out about it first.


Robert Henry Winters: I have not any further details to offer at this time.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I hope that the minister will look into the matter carefully.


Robert Henry Winters: I will indeed. I shall be glad to do so.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is things of this nature, Mr. Chairman, that give a board-the national film board or any other one-a bad name. I think that something should be done to check up on the matter.


Robert Henry Winters: It will be looked into. The figure of wastage in the approximately eleven million feet of film processed was 419,000. The savings involved in the transfers of the display section and the posters and design section as well as the microfilming section was $39,500 per annum to the film board. With respect to the revenue from television, the revenue for the year in question was $14,243.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
4854	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION Immigration branch-
59. Administration of the Immigration Act, $799,197.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Are these the main estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, Mr. Chairman?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I want to say a few words on the general subject of immigration, and I am taking this opportunity of doing so. My remarks result from a visit to several of our immigration missions abroad and some firsthand knowledge of the problem of displaced persons in Europe. What I shall say on the subject of immigration is not a criticism of our present basic policy; rather it points out the failure of its operation and effectiveness, which is certainly not in any way a reflection on the work being done by members of immigration missions abroad. My statement is based, however, on personal observations of our immigration missions in Germany, Austria and the United Kingdom, as well as visits to several displaced persons camps in various parts of Europe. What I propose to say is, I hope, constructive criticism directed toward the important objective of getting an adequate number of suitable immigrants into Canada with the greatest possible speed in which they can be assimilated.
The subject falls into three main classifications. First, there is the question of the displaced persons and the IRO. Second, there is the problem of population of Germans expelled from other parts of Europe, who are now living on the German and Austrian economies. This is by far the more serious problem at the moment. And third, there is the question of the operation of our immigration policy as carried out at the present time by the department.
Dealing with the displaced persons as distinguished from nationals is at present of minor importance. Nearly all the displaced persons who can be moved have already been dealt with and we are, to use the well-known phrase, now scraping the bottom of the barrel with regard to these camps. As a matter of fact, it can be considered that this problem has been solved as far as it is in our power to do so. The residue now in the camps is almost entirely unacceptable immigrants to Canada. They are unacceptable for several basic reasons. The first of these of course is health.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order; I do not like to interrupt. Like everybody else I hope to get home at least before the middle of next month. May I be informed what the hon. member is quoting


from? There is a rule, Mr. Chairman-and I am insisting that at this stage of the game rules should be obeyed-that speeches must not be read.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am carefully following my notes, Mr. Chairman. I continue. The first of these of course is health, and the incidence of tuberculosis which now exists amongst these people is unfortunately very high. While we may feel justifiably sorry about this-


George Alexander Cruickshank: On a point of order again; if the rules are not to be followed and my hon. friend, with your permission, Mr. Chairman, is to read his speech, for goodness' sake let him pick it up and read it.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. May I point out to the hon. member that the hon. member for York West has indicated that he was merely following his notes.


George Alexander Cruickshank: What notes?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. I think it will greatly facilitate the progress of the work of the committee if we refrain from-


George Alexander Cruickshank: Reading.


Louis-René Beaudoin: No; raising points of order-unless they are absolutely well founded-and co-operate with hon. members generally.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I assure you that I have not used up as much time of the house on the important subject of immigration as the hon. member has on butter substitutes.
The residue now in these camps is almost entirely unacceptable as immigrants to Canada. They are unacceptable for several basic reasons. The first of these of course is health. The incidence of tuberculosis which now exists among these people is, unfortunately, very high. While we may feel justifiably sorry about this, I would not advocate or suggest that any relaxation of the present medical standards be allowed.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the hon. member permit a question? What page is he quoting from now?


Mr. Gauthier (Sudbury):: From the notes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am quoting from the second paragraph of my notes, and I shall shortly come to the third and fourth paragraphs.
I would not advocate or suggest that any relaxation of the present medical standards be allowed. One of our doctors told me that it was considered that just one active tubercular lesion permitted to slip through the control could cost Canada as much as the salary of the entire mission for one year.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
The second bar to these displaced persons is what might be called mental instability. This may follow all the way from reckless irresponsibility, right down to outright insanity. Naturally we should not accept any persons in this category.
The third category contains people Who have had criminal records, who are morally unstable or who are politically dangerous. Here again I would not recommend any loosening of the present regulations.
It has been said that there exist today about 200,000 to 300,000 persons who form the hard core of displaced persons. The solution of this problem is an international one, and we in Canada, who have done proportionately as much as any other nation in the world to assist these unfortunate people, can now help only if we get genuine international action and full co-operation, particularly from the United Nations and the United States, whose record up to now has not been as co-operative as could be desired. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, the new United States regulations have made it much more helpful recently.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Stay with your notes and you will be more accurate.


Agar Rodney Adamson: A suggestion in regard to this problem has been given to me on several occasions, and I give it to the committee as the considered opinion of several officials, both Canadian and European. It is that, first, the hard core does represent an international obligation of the free peoples of the world; second, no country should be asked to accept people who are immediately going to become a charge on that country. Therefore the suggestion made is that an international financial agreement should be made for the care of these people within the countries now sheltering them, who should not become a burden on these countries in which the camps are now situated. This international agreement should, by the provision of funds, jointly bear the cost of providing for the people. When the IRO comes to an end this fall, the remaining displaced persons will become a burden on the economy of the countries in which they are living at the present time and their presence will naturally be resented by these countries.
Coming now to the more serious question of expelled persons of German and Austrian nationality, the situation is far more dangerous. As I have already said in this house at the present session, the impact of this surplus population in Germany, and the damaging effect it has on German economy, is a direct and major cause of the rebirth of nationalism, now called neo-nazism in 80709-308
Germany. Unless this pressure and the unemployment caused by the surplus population are relieved the future of democratic government in Germany is in jeopardy. The German people will no longer believe the pious platitudes about the benefits of democracy if at the same time the democratic world will not help them with this problem which threatens their very ability to survive. This is caused, of course, because western Germany today has been separated from the food-producing areas of the east, which she used to depend on for feeding her population.
What are the figures of this surplus population? The statistics made available by the German government on January 1 show that the number of expelled Germans, including those in the Soviet zone and in Berlin, was 11,396,000 persons. This of course exceeds by nearly 3 million the total number of immigrants absorbed by the whole North American continent during the past 40 years. It is almost equal to the total population of Canada. Of this group, 8,964,000 are directly registered and under the care of the west German government. They are distributed as follows: British zone, 4,811,000; United States zone, 3,839,000; French zone, 314,000. These expellees consist of Germans who in and subsequent to 1945 had to leave areas ceded to the U.S.S.R. and Poland in accordance with the Yalta and Potsdam agreements. They also include the nationals of the Volksdeutsch who were expelled in the same period from Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rouma-nia and other Soviet satellite countries.
To show how serious this condition is I will give one or two examples.


George Alexander Cruickshank: On a point of order, I want to keep track of this. I am trying to follow it very attentively. I am speaking on a point of order. Would the hon. member keep us informed in order that I may keep track of the page in his notes from which he is quoting, and which he is following so closely?


Agar Rodney Adamson: You know, Mr. Speaker, when one thinks of the amount of time the hon. member for Fraser Valley has wasted in this House of Commons, and who now has the temerity to try to hold up a discussion on this serious question of immigration, one must have serious doubts, not of his intelligence, but the intelligence of the people of Fraser Valley.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Now he won't get away with reading it, I can tell you that.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. To facilitate business in committee I think hon. members will have to co-operate. The hon. member for York West indicated at the beginning of
4856	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration his remarks that he was going to speak on immigration, and follow his notes closely. The hon. member for Fraser Valley has brought to the attention of the Chair the fact that the hon. member for York West is reading his speech.
Since the hon. member for York West has been following his notes for five or six minutes or more, I think at this point the chairman is inclined to agree with the hon. member for Fraser Valley when he states that the hon. member for York West is reading his speech. Of course the hon. member knows that citation 238 in Beau-chesne, third edition, states:
It is a rule in both houses of parliament that a member must address the house orally, and not read from a written, previously prepared speech, for the reason that, "if the practice of reading speeches should prevail, members might read speeches that were written by other people, and the time of the house be taken up in considering the arguments of persons who were not deserving of their attention.''
There is no doubt that speeches must not be read. The hon. member knows that rule.
I would imagine that his chief purpose in following his notes closely is to make his remarks as quickly as possible. However, after the last intervention of the hon. member for Fraser Valley the hon. member for York West made some remark which I am sure he will wish to revise, because to indicate that an hon. member representing a riding has been sent here by electors whose intelligence perhaps does not measure up too high is an implication that I am sure the hon. member for York West would wish to withdraw.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Mr. Chairman, I willingly
withdraw those remarks. I followed my notes carefully because they contain a great number of figures. I believe these figures are of interest to the house and country, and I believe the procedure I am following will expedite our business.
These expellees consist of Germans who in and subsequent to 1945 had to leave areas ceded to the U.S.S.R. and Poland in accordance with the Yalta and Potsdam agreements. They also include the nationals and Volksdeutsch who were expelled in the same period from Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Roumania and other Soviet satellite countries. To show how serious this condition is, I will give one or two examples. In Schleswig-Holstein, 890 original inhabitants of the district Segeberg sheltered 2,300 refugees; a little village in the Starnberger See near Munich had 561 inhabitants. To this were added 300 new evacuees from the city of Munich and 516 expellees from other parts of Europe.
[The Deputy Chaimian.]

These examples show, I think, how intolerable the pressure of surplus population has become. Again I say that the solution of this problem must be undertaken on a world basis, but here Canada has a special incentive for acting alone.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Again on a point of
order. Two years ago-and I have a long memory-I remember that-


Mr. Cardiff:: Go on with the point of order.


George Alexander Cruickshank: If my hon. friend would like to take over and to read an essay on the point of order, I would be glad to sit down. Otherwise-


Lewis Elston Cardiff: State the point of order; don't waste time.


George Alexander Cruickshank: It is possible to remember what happened two years ago. I do not forget. With unanimous consent we can dispense with the reading of any essay. I move that unanimous consent be given so that the hon. member may put his essay on the record.


Mr. Crestohl:: Would the hon. member inform the house as to the authority for his statistics?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes; they are west German government statistics, published recently in Germany. As a matter of fact I give them to the House of Commons because I want to show that the situation with respect to surplus population in Germany is one of the world problems, and one of the problems we can do most to solve.
The first incentive, of course, is that Canada is desperately in need of immigration. Agriculture and industry are at the present time short-handed and, as the Minister of Trade and Commerce said only the other night in this house, the whole labour situation in Canada is tight. Spokesmen for the federation of agriculture and the Canadian chamber of commerce, together with the various boards of trade, have repeatedly stressed the need for further immigration. Surely it is not necessary to repeat that if we are to fully develop our heritage of natural resources in Canada we must have a population which can do it. Natural increase, unfortunately, will not accomplish this fast enough.
The second point here is that the Germans want to come to Canada. Since the announcement of assisted passages, applications have been coming in to our missions in Germany and Austria at a rate which sometimes exceeded 2,000 a day. When I visited the missions at Salzburg and Karlsruhe, I found that the staff was absolutely swamped by applications. So serious was this condition that it took as long as three months before

an applicant received a reply from the mission. The letters of application were piled on the floor around the walls of the offices three and four feet high because there were no filing cabinets to hold them. The officers worked from eleven to sixteen hours a day trying to cope with what can be described as a virtual inundation. Canadian immigration teams were constantly on the go and one team I talked to had processed 300 people in that day, which they admitted was too great a number to receive proper attention and processing.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to be objectionable, but I rise again to a point of order.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Go on with your point of order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Maybe the hon. member could sing it.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am asking-I am insisting upon my rights that the rules be followed to this extent. I have no doubt that what the hon. member is attempting to say is of interest, at least to himself-and I hope to others. But by unanimous consent it can be recorded in the minutes. I am asking that that unanimous consent be given, and that it be put into Hansard.


An hon. Member:: No.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I fail to see the point of order there.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I should like to point out to the hon. member that it appears that, generally, hon. members would wish that he refrain from reading such a long statement in committee on this item. I believe the hon. member for Fraser Valley is right when he states that the speech should not be read. There is no question about that. This has reached the stage where the committee is anxious to transact business. I think the general opinion was that the hon. member might be permitted to follow his notes very closely. I think if the statement had been brief there would not have been any objection, but it appears to be rather lengthy. I do not know how many more pages the hon. member has before him, but I think I can sense that the feeling of the committee at this moment is that the hon. member would be imposing on his colleagues if he were to carry on for any length of time reading his speech.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: On a point of order, probably the hon. member for York West has been reading part of his speech or probably all of it, but I think at this late date in the session it is an odd and funny time to enforce the 80709-308i
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration rule with regard to the reading of speeches. Last night an hon. member read all of his speech lasting twenty minutes. Most of the speeches during this session have been read.
The Deputy Chairman.: The hon. member says that it is too late in the session to enforce this particular rule, and he refers to a speech lasting twenty minutes which was read. I do not think that was in committee; it must have been on the first or second reading of a bill.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: It was last night when we were trying to finish up at eleven o'clock.


Louis-René Beaudoin: If it did happen, no hon. member rose on a point of order. It is quite easy to tolerate occurrences of this type when no one rises to a point of order but when some hon. member does rise the Chairman must give his ruling. This is my position now. I might have applied citation 328 the first time the hon. member for Fraser Valley rose on a point of order; I could have done so again the second time he rose on a point of order; but it was only after he had risen for the third time and sensing the feeling of the other hon. members that I feel I must ask the hon. member for York West not to continue reading his speech. As long as he does not read his speech he can carry on with a discussion of this subject. That is his right, but it is against the rule to read a speech.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: I wonder if the hon. member for York West encountered many persons in Germany who would make good settlers for Canada, particularly western Canada, and more particularly the Peace river country which I represent?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Or the Fraser valley?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Mr. Chairman, thank you for your ruling. I was only following my notes carefully because I thought it would expedite the simple statement I had to make on immigration. As there has been objection to my finishing up the last two pages I shall have to take a little longer.
As I have pointed out, our missions in Germany are inundated with applications and in my opinion the department has not provided those missions with sufficient facilities to handle the tremendous rush. There was a piece in the press the other day that over a thousand Germans a week were coming to Canada and if it is true it would show that the conditions to which I have referred have been remedied. I am speaking on this subject tonight because I feel there is a tremendous job to be done in Europe by our immigration missions.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
When I was there they certainly were not being provided with the facilities to enable them to do the required job. For instance, there were no X-ray machines in any of our missions on the continent. As has been pointed out, the admission of one immigrant with active tuberculosis lesions may cost this country as much as the cost of operating one of our missions for a whole year. X-ray pictures can be procured in several places in Europe for comparatively small sums and it is extremely difficult for our doctors to spot that the X-ray picture being shown is not in fact the X-ray of the applicant. Our doctors are good at it, but there is no question that some do slip through.
I should like to see our missions equipped with X-ray machines so that our medical staff on the continent may be in complete control of the people to be admitted to Canada. That is extremely important. There were no X-ray machines when I visited our mission in London, tout I understood that some were coming over. It is most important that active cases of tuberculosis be prevented from entering Canada. I certainly would not advocate any relaxation of the regulations and the standards with regard to health.
A word with regard to specialized persons coming to Canada. As I have said, the day of the displaced person is practically over. The best immigrants are the West Germans and there are literally hundreds of thousands who are still anxious to come to Canada. These people are some of the best in Europe today. My criticism is not of the work being done by the mission but rather of the lack of facilities provided to process these immigrants. In the past some of the finest immigrants we had in Canada were of German descent. As a matter of fact if you were looking for a typically Canadian town I doubt very much if you could improve upon the twin cities of Kitchener and Waterloo. A number of those who have contributed greatly to the debates in this house and to the whole Canadian scene politically have been of German dlescent. My former seatmate, the late Karl Homuth, was an example of the second generation Germans who have added so much to the stature and economy of Canada. These people want to come here in their thousands, and I do not believe we have adequately provided1 for their admittance to Canada.
I believe an effort should be made in co-operation with Canadian industry to greatly increase the number of proper types of immigrants from Germany. While I know many representatives of industry have visited our missions, particularly in search of such


people as miners and lumbermen, nevertheless I believe such bodies as the Canadian chamber of commerce and the federations of agriculture, working together with the Department of Labour, could bring about a great speed-up in immigration. I would ask that industry and agriculture co-operate, even to the extent of sending representatives to work with our immigration missions in Europe.
The second point is that in the past we have received a large number of displaced persons, I think over 100,000, who have come to Canada to enter agriculture or domestic service. Many of those people were totally unsuited to work in agriculture, domestic service or the other jobs in which they had agreed to remain. Almost immediately on coming to Canada they became dissatisfied and left their jobs. As a matter of fact many of them remained in their original jobs for only a few weeks, and then left. I believe it was unwise to bring technical and professional people to this country and expect them to make suitable workers in industry, domestic service or other employment. I believe more screening should be done so that this mistake will not be carried on. Personally I have been well satisfied with the displaced persons who have worked for me, but they have told me that out of an entire shipload they were the only people who remained with the same employer until their contract was up. I believe that must be unsatisfactory not only for the displaced person coming to Canada but for the employer as well.
I believe something else should be done when we bring immigrants to this country. When the Ontario scheme was working at Rainbow Corner the prospective immigrant was interviewed and typed, and his ability to do a job was well known before he left England. His papers came ahead of him, and immediately on landing in Canada he had a job and a place to spend the first few days in his new country, so he felt he was being looked after. I realize that the federal authorities carry on that sort of supervision of displaced persons, who upon landing are looked after at places like Ajax before they proceed to the labour offices and are given employment. I believe an immigrant should be made to feel that he is wanted, that his abilities should be known, that a job should be arranged and that for the first few days in this country he should be looked after. I realize that this would mean a considerable expansion in the department, but there is no more important job to be done in connection with our new citizens than to make them feel they are welcome in their new home. I feel

that what the Ontario government did at Rainbow Corner could be copied with profit by the federal government. I know a great many immigrants are looked after by relatives or friends, or by industry; but I have heard of many others who on coming to Canada have landed cold at some station not knowing where to go, and have had to be looked after by one society or another. I believe that is a mistake, and that looking after the immigrants and providing for their immediate employment is of enormous importance.
I have just one other suggestion to make to the minister. There is still in Germany if not a feeling of hostility at least a refusal to accept responsibility for the last war. I should like to see all the immigrants who come from Bavaria and the district around Munich forced to go through the concentration camp at Dachau to see the evidence of the crimes committed at that concentration camp by the nazis. I know it is impossible, but I think it would be a salutary thing for those immigrants.
I want to say again, Mr. Chairman, that this problem is of enormous importance. First of all, the problem of the displaced person, and secondly the expelled surplus population of Germany, are going to upset the economy of Germany and prevent European recovery unless something is done. Then, you have the problem of obtaining the right type of immigrant in sufficient numbers, bringing them rapidly to Canada and putting them into suitable employment. There never were such hardworking people as the minister's staff in Berlin. They were working eleven, twelve and sometimes sixteen hours a day. The various teams visited the camps and travelled many thousands of miles a week. I feel that steps should be taken, if they have not been taken already, to assist those people who are working so hard and doing a good job for Canada. These doctors, the security people and others, should be able to work the normal hours of other professions.


Leon David Crestohl: I should like to put a question to the hon. gentleman. Can he tell us whether these Germans whom he wishes to import into Canada are people who were reared in the democratic way of life known to us in Canada, or were they brought up with the totalitarian philosophy of life?


Agar Rodney Adamson: No one in Europe is brought up with what we know as the democratic philosophy of life. Here I want to say that the Germans today are as democratic as any people in Europe. The fact that they had national socialism is, I believe, a salutary
28, 1951	4859
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration reminder to many of them. It is only with regard to certain people that I made my suggestion about Dachau.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I do not want to lengthen this debate at all, but there is one point I want to bring to the attention of hon. members. I shall not exceed three minutes. What I have to say will be entirely read from a book which I recommend to hon. members. It is entitled "Round Table", and there are a couple of extremely pertinent comments on immigration into Canada. I should like hon. members to bear them in mind. The first one is as follows, and it is at page 400:
In the second place, the laws of population suggest, what is after all most obvious, that land from which a living can be got must be available if settlement is to succeed. The mere fact that land is empty is no reason for believing that it ought to be filled. The highlands of Scotland are comparatively empty, but they cannot be "filled" for the simple reason that they cannot sustain much life. So the first rule for making a settlement is to find some area where it can be made.
Here, again, Canada is a misunderstood country, a country to which the map does much disservice. The map impresses us with size but it has nothing to say about usability. Usability depends upon fertility of soil or presence of other resources, and upon climate. Climate cuts down the usable area of Canada in two directions:	In the southwestern
prairies and the interior of British Columbia, where semi-desert conditions prevail, and towards the north, where temperature sets an iron limit to agriculture. Settlement is already not far from this limit.
He thinks the amount of fertile usable land, compared with the total area, is minute. That, Mr. Chairman, is a most extraordinary statement to make, and the man who writes that chapter says, we have now reached that limit for immigration possibilities in Canada. I should like to know what the minister has to say in that connection.


Henry Alfred Hosking: I wish to compliment the
minister upon making a port of entry in the city of Guelph. As is known we have one of the largest sections of population composed of former Europeans, who have turned out to be very fine Canadian citizens. Many of those citizens have brothers and close relations in other European countries. This port of entry which has been situated in Guelph has been very helpful to them in bringing out several of their relations, who I hope will become as fine Canadian citizens as their predecessors.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There are
one or two bits of information I want to secure, and I presume this is the best time to get them. I should like the minister to say a word as to the means taken to look after arriving immigrants, particularly as to the number of officers he has throughout the

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration country. Perhaps while he is doing that he may just give us the figures as to the number of arrivals?


Walter Edward Harris: I did not hear the last
part of the question, Mr. Chairman.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: There are
really two things. How are the incoming immigrants dealt with pending their becoming self-sustaining? What are the numbers currently arriving? What number of officers has been established by the department throughout the country to deal with these immigrants?


Walter Edward Harris: To deal with
the numbers first, the officers in Canada total 314. When the immigrants come forward they are in roughly three categories: Those who have been sponsored in the first place and have a direct destination to which to go to enter into employment at once, and there are the dependents of that group. Then, there is another group who have come forward because they are entitled to come by our laws and seek employment when they arrive here. The latter group constitutes much the smallest group of all, and they usually have facilities of their own. Nevertheless, we have settlement offices and settlement officers in practically all parts of Canada to which immigrants go, who make it their business to receive those people, to see that they have facilities to use pending their getting employment and generally assisting them in getting that employment.
With respect to the number who come, we have had quite a different picture than we had a year ago. For the benefit of my friend the hon. member for Greenwood I should perhaps say that I have not yet made a statement on the estimates owing to the fact that the hon. member for York West preceded me. But the figures for this year show that there has been a decided increase in immigration to Canada over the comparable period in 1950. For example, beginning in November of last year the figures show that from that time until the end of May, 74,247 immigrants came to Canada as compared with 41,863 in the same period of the preceding year. The total numbers for the first five months of this year were 60,356. This represents an increase of 99 per cent over the corresponding months of 1950.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: 99 per cent?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes, 99 per cent. The February, March and April totals were the highest for these months during the post-war period; and the May total of 20,254 was the highest for any month since the
(Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood).]
end of the war, 4,931 above the previous record month of June, 1948, when 15,323 immigrants entered Canada. The total of 60,356 for the five months ended May 31, 1951, exceeded by 18,404 the total of 41,952 during the comparable period of 1948, during which year 125,414 immigrants entered this country. In point of fact, arrivals during June will result in a figure for the six' months ending June 30 which will exceed the total of 73,912 who came here during the entire year of 1950.
I think perhaps those are the figures my hon. friend wanted.


Gordon Francis Higgins: From the time of confederation-and I do not mean with respect to Newfoundland but rather general confederation-is there much difference between the figure for immigration and that for emigration?


Walter Edward Harris: It is quite true that in the period of the 1880's and the early 1890's there was an excess of emigration over immigration; and it is quite true that the same condition obtained after the first world war for a short time. I am informed that until perhaps the first world war there was not a great difference in the figures spread over the period from confederation. But dealing with the present, since the end of the second world war, the numbers who have come here have greatly exceeded the numbers who have left this country.


Gordon Francis Higgins: May I ask the minister this
question: In his opinion, from his knowledge of the department, how much more of population can Canada absorb?


Walter Edward Harris: I am sure that
the committee would be interested to know what opinion the hon. member for St. John's East holds on that point. There are distinguished members of the House of Commons who have expressed opinions, including the leader of the party to which he belongs. My recollection is that the leader of his party has said that this country can maintain between 50 million and 100 million people.


Gordon Francis Higgins: What does the minister say?


Walter Edward Harris: The minister
says that, for the moment, he is considering the year 1951-52 or the year 1951, during the course of which we are contemplating a figure of somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 people coming into this country. We feel that they can be absorbed into the economy this year.


Major James William Coldwell: That is an exceedingly
interesting statement which the minister has

made. Can he give us a break-down of the immigrants by countries of origin? That would be best. Inasmuch as so many of them have come from displaced persons camps, it would be better if you have the break-down of them by countries from which they originally came.


Walter Edward Harris: If I have unanimous consent, I would put on the record a statement, for the first five months of this year compared with the first five months of last year, of the country of racial origin, of persons entering Canada. Perhaps to make
28. 1951	4861
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the record a little bit more complete, I might also supply a statement of the breakdown with respect to males, females and the occupations which they reported on arrival.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Is it agreed that
the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has the consent of the committee to put these statements on the record?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Walter Edward Harris: The statements are as follows:
Immigration to Canada, by Origins from Overseas and Total from the United States
Origine ethnique des immigrants arrives au Canada d'outre-mer et immigration totale des Etats-Unis
Five Months	Five Months	Percentagesended	ended	OfMay 31, 1950	May 31, 1951	increaseCinq mois	Cinq mois	Pourcentagestermines le	termines le	de l'augmen-31 mai 1950	31 mai 1951	tationEnglish-Anglais 	3,433	6,462	Irish-Irlandais 	560	856	Scottish-Ecossais 	1,263	3,091	Welsh-Gallois 	95	190	Totals-Totaux 	5,351	10,599	98-0United States-Etats-Unis 	2,493	2,926	17-4N. European Races-Races du N. de l'Europe	Belgian-Beiges 	183	866	Danish-Danois 	523	1,598	Dutch-Hollandais 	4,533	9,132	Finnish-Finlandais 	198	502	French-Frangais 	418	1,747	German-Allemands 	1,600	5,993	Icelandic-Islandais 	3	4	Norwegian-Norvegiens 	84	218	Swedish-Suedois 	47	215	Swiss-Suisses 	179	402	Totals-Totaux 	7,768	20,677	166-2Other Races-Autres Races	Albanian-Albanais 	12	18	Arabian-Arabes 	22	26	Armenian-Armeniens 	10	26	Bulgarian-Bulgares 	20	126	Chinese-Chinois 	495	1,106	Czechoslovakian-Tcheques 	445	1,401	East Indian-Hindous 	26	41	Estonian-Estoniens 	639	2,434	Greek-Grecs 	234	862	Hebrew-Hebreux 	1,100	2,416	Iranian-Iraniens 	3	Italian-Italiens 	3,291	6,076	Japanese-Japonais 	8	2	Jugoslavian-Yougoslaves 	393	1,238	Lettish-Lettons 	941	1,059	Lithuanian-Lituaniens 	498	407	Magyar-Magyars 	620	1,456	Maltese-Maltais 	118	306	Mexican-Mexicains 	1	2	Negro-Negres 	29	30	North A. Indian-Indiens de l'A. du N	i	Polish-Polonais 	3,401	4,113	4862	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration
Portuguese-Portugais	
Roumanian-Roumains	
Russian

Russes	
Spanish-Espagnols	
Syrian-Syriens	
Turkish-Turcs	
Ukrainian-Ukrainiens	
Others-Autres	
Totals-Totaux	
Grand Totals-Totaux generaux
for the Five Months ended May 31, 1951
Five Months	Five Months	Percentagesended	ended	ofMay 31. 1950	May 31, 1951	increaseCinq mois	Cinq mois	Pourcentagestermines le	termines le	de l'augmen-31 mai 1950	31 mai 1951	tation36	34	104	306	237	475	17	59	34	56	5	2	1,998	2,073 1	14,735	26,154	77-530,347	60,356	98-9c, Occupation	and Destination,	
Sexe, occupation et destination des immigrants arrives au Canada au cours des cinq mois termines le 31 mal 1951
Sex-Sexe
Adult Males-Hommes (adultes)	
Adult Females-Femmes (adultes)	
Children under 18-Enfants de moins de 18 ans
Totals-Totaux	
Occupation
Farming-Agriculteurs	
Unskilled and Semi-skilled-Travailleurs nonspecialises et semi-specialises	
Skilled-Travailleurs specialises	
Clerical-Commis	
Professional-Hommes de profession	
Trading-Commergants	
Female Domestics-Servantes	
Others-Autres	
Total Workers-Total des travailleurs

Dependent Wives-Epouses a charge	
Dependent Children-Enfants a charge	
Total Dependents-Total des personnes a charge	
Destination
Newfoundland-Terre-Neuve	
Nova Scotia-Nouvelle-Ecosse	
New Brunswick-Nouveau-Brunswick	
P. E. Island-lie du P.-Edouard	
Quebec-Quebec	
Ontario-Ontario	
Manitoba-Manitoba	
Saskatchewan-Saskatchewan	
Alberta-Alberta	
British Columbia-Colombie-Britannlque 

Yukon and Northwest Territories-Yukon et Territoires du Nord-Ouest	
From Overseas	From U.S.A.	TotalsD'outre- mer	Des Etats-Unis	Totaux26,779	1,055	27,83415,911	1,125	17,03614,740	746	15,48657,430	2,926	60,3569,845	115	9,9607,775	203	7,9787,871	246	8,1171,595	156	1,7511,039	211	1,250897	229	1,1262,174	20	2,1941,451	280	1,73132,647	1,460	34,10710,306	736	11,04214,477	730	15,20724,783	1,466	26,24977	16	93603	101	704486	60	54676	10	8610,768	520	11,28832,571	1,399	33,9702,624	76	2,7001,511	66	1,5774,854	256	5,1103,859	417	4,2761	5	6


John Lambert Gibson: I should like to ask the minister if he has given any further consideration to the problem of allowing children over 21 years of age of Canadian Chinese to come 
into Canada? I realize that this has been an extremely difficult problem. It has taken quite a long time to look over the cases of all these Chinese children.


Mr. Blackmore:: Will the hon. member
speak a little bit louder?


John Lambert Gibson: I am speaking of the problem of Chinese immigration. As the minister will realize, it has been quite difficult to look over all the cases. In some cases the children who were then eligible to come to Canada have now become 21 and it is not possible for them to come in under the present regulations. I was wondering if the minister had anything new to give to the House of Commons in regard to that matter.


Walter Edward Harris: As the committee knows, P.C. 2115 governs the admission to Canada of immigrants who are children of Canadian citizens of Chinese origin. That order in council permits the entry of unmarried children to the age of 21 years. We have found that, in some -cases, there have been evidences of real hardship and perhaps suffering if that rule were to be applied rigidly. It has been applied rigidly, Mr. Chairman, and I do not know of any exceptions which have -been made to it up to -the present time. Nevertheless, there have been cases -presented to me by hon. members, including the hon. member for Comox-Al-berni-


Edmund Davie Fulton: And the hon. member for Kamloops.


Walter Edward Harris: -the hon. member for Kamloops and many others. Having in mind the present situation in China and the known desire of parents to have their children with them, we have come to the conclusion that we will give consideration to those cases of unmarried children over 21 up to the age of 25, to see if the circumstances warrant their admission on the grounds I have stated.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If one of His
Majesty's ministers will accept a suggestion from a humble member of the opposition, whil-e I admire the neatness of the answer he gave to the hon. member for St. John's East a moment ago, in confining himself entirely to this year, I suggest that the minister in charge of immigration will have to have a view a little beyond that, because those who are thinking of coming to this country will want to know something of his views not perhaps in tens of millions -but at any rate some indication of what he thinks on this subject. B-ut that is merely i-n passing.
The question I want to ask the minister is this. He has told us he has 314 establishments in his own department, I understand. Will he say something about co-operation? Let us take the province of Ontario, for example, and the provincial authorities. Do they have any organization of their own?
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration Do they collaborate in any way? If so, what is their organization? There is a second branch of this matter that I wish to inquire into, but I will ask those questions first.


Walter Edward Harris: All provincial governments have a department in which there is some officer responsible for immigration, although all provincial governments do not, in fact, engage directly in it. To take the question with respect to the province of Ontario, there is a department there which has been actively interested in immigration.
I think I can say that between that depart- [DOT] ment, this department and the Department of Labour of this government there is the closest co-operation to see that the needs of any particular industry that specifically wants help will get it; or alternatively, to see that there is a general flow of acceptable and desirable immigrants to that province. I can only add that all the steps that have -been taken by this department have been discussed with -the representatives of the province of Ontario, and with other provinces from time to time, as the circumstances may require. And we are sometimes rivals perhaps in the field under certain circumstances, but only rivals in order to have the most advantageous kind of immigrants.


Robert Fair: Is there any relaxation of the rules concerning the adopted children of Chinese coming into Canada?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Adopted children of anyone.


Walter Edward Harris: We have not been able to make any relaxation in that rule yet, and might I explain why. Immigration to Canada from China has been on the increase since the beginning of the year. The numbers that are coming forward are quite substantial. The figure for last year was I think about 1,741. That will be exceeded substantially this year, so that our facilities at Hong Kong are limited, and we have felt that as long as there are unmarried children who come within the regulations, and as long as there is this other group I have just mentioned, we could not go outside of that, until at least the future should make it desirable to make the exception my hon. friend has suggested.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Will the minister tell us what inspection facilities there are at Hong Kong and what medical facilities for the purpose of examining those children who are brought forward?


Walter Edward Harris: Early this year it was evident that the number of approved applications from Canada were not being dealt with so that the backlog would be brought down in Hong Kong, and we sent

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration additional inspectors and stenographic help to that office. The office consists of inspectors and clerical staff. The medical staff is a local medical staff from whom we get our reports. We are processing now somewhere between 200 and 250 applications a month in Hong Kong and feel that that is adequate at the moment, because in fact the numbers did drop in May just a few. We think that perhaps we have reached the peak of the present group of applications, and we can handle them satisfactorily in the future.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to come back to the question I was asking the minister. He half anticipated the further question I was going to ask by mentioning himself the fact that the labour department also has certain staff which deals with this same problem. Perhaps the minister can tell me how many of these officers are in Ontario; that is, of the department of immigration, how many of the 314 officers are in Ontario, how many of them were there last year? How many officers has the labour department? How many officers would the department of Ontario have? The minister very frankly used the word "rivalry" which of course was in my mind. I would be very glad if he would give us these figures. Then there is one other thing. What is the size of his staff, not merely the number of officers, but the size of the staff? For purposes of simplification, let us take Ontario.


Walter Edward Harris: There are 64 offices in Ontario, and 469 on the staff in Ontario.


Mr. Noseworthy:: I should like to suggest to the minister that in the interests of immigration he go into a huddle with the Minister of Resources and Development and with the Minister of Defence Production. Unquestionably we need in Canada today a great many skilled workers, particularly from the British isles. I understand that they are being brought into this country in considerable numbers. At the A. V. Roe plant near Toronto there are several hundred of these skilled workers from the British isles. They tell me that the housing situation in the Toronto district was very much misrepresented to them before they came. These men now have to live at considerable distances from the plant. As a matter of fact, they live all over the city. They pay as much as $120 a month for accommodation, and are very discontented over having to live under these conditions. These are skilled mechanics. They tell me that they are quite willing to build their own houses and to assume the financial responsibility for the building of them if the government will give them some fMr. Harris (Grey-Bruce).]
help, in securing either the land or the materials. Even under the new regulations, they are somewhat limited as to the amount of money they can bring into the country, but they have all the skills necessary. They are quite prepared to build their own houses in their off hours, and they are anxious that the government shall give them some co-operation by way of making land available for which they can pay over a period of time. Has the minister given any thought to that? I am sure that something of that kind would encourage these people, who are very desirable immigrants and are very essential.


Robert Fair: Before we get away from the Chinese question may I ask the minister what are the qualifications of Chinese immigrants between the ages of 17 and 25?


Walter Edward Harris: Between the ages of 17 and 21, they are admissible upon proof that they are in fact children of the applicant here. I have just explained the policy we are to follow in the future with respect to those over 21. I hope my hon. friend heard me. If he did not, I can explain to him later.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps the minister would take a moment longer to comment on the other points that were brought to his attention in the memorandum recently presented to him by the group representing the Chinese. I hold in my hand a copy of the memorandum, but I will not take the time to read it. If he does not have his copy with him I can send him mine. I can say to the minister that there are about five headings. He can get the gist of each point by looking at the headings, and I would appreciate his comment on the five points dealt with in the memorandum.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I want to remind the minister that I asked him a triplebarrelled question, and he answered only one-third of it. I asked how many officers of the department of immigration there were in Ontario, how many in the Department of Labour, and how many in the department of immigration of Ontario, and he answered only the part about his own department.


Walter Edward Harris: I would not want to misinform the committee on anything in the Department of Labour. I am sure the minister can inform the committee correctly on that. With respect to the officers of the provincial government, I do not know of any except those in the city of Toronto in connection with the provincial capital. We deal with the office at that place; and that, so far as I know, is the only office they have.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the minister explain how the rivalry works?


Walter Edward Harris: I think I made it clear that I said it was a friendly rivalry for the best type of immigrant. The Ontario government has been seeking to obtain immigrants by selection abroad-and in London, particularly-for persons who require their services here. There is no rivalry, in the sense that we are not hunting the same person; but there is a demand at Ontario House in London for immigrants for Ontario, as there is a demand at our headquarters in London for immigrants for the whole of Canada. To that extent there may be some rivalry in seeking persons for this country. But we do not seek a person for the same applicant.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: We hope.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to ask two or three questions, the first of which has to do with the inspectional facilities at Hong Kong. Has the minister anything to say as to the efficacy of X-ray methods to determine the age of children? I know of certain cases where children have been applied for by bona fide Chinese residents in Canada, and they have been refused admission on the ground that the X-rays determined that the ages were not those specified in the applications. What medical facilities are available at Hong Kong in connection with inspections of that kind? The minister did not refer to the question of X-rays. Is he prepared to say that the X-ray method is sufficient to establish the age of a child?


Walter Edward Harris: I am not sure whether the hon. member for Kamloops fully understands the procedure at the Hong Kong office.


Edmund Davie Fulton: You will have to fully
explain it.


Walter Edward Harris: What happens is this. We approve of an application in Canada by a Chinese resident here for a child. That application is forwarded to the Hong Kong office. The parent here is notified that it has been approved; and both the Hong Kong office and no doubt the parent notify the child to appear in the Hong Kong office for examination.
As the hon. member knows, there are no birth records in China. When our inspector interviews a young man who says that he is the son referred to in the application, he is obliged by our regulations to determine whether in fact that is the son of the person in this country. He can do that only by his estimation of the age, to see if it corresponds with the age stipulated in the application, and by asking questions as to the family connections, and by any other 80709-309J
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration form of examination which would elicit facts to correspond with the application.
It happens that in some cases our inspector comes to the conclusion that the boy who presents himself is of a quite different age from that of the son in question. The boy is informed to that effect by our inspector. If he disputes the decision of the inspector he is told that if he would like to go to his own medical practitioner in Hong Kong and have an X-ray taken it might indicate that our inspector was wrong, and that the age was as stated in the application. When he does that those X-rays are read by the local practitioner who takes them, by our inspector and, ultimately, by our officials here in the Department of National Health and Welfare.
As to the efficacy of X-ray examination, speaking generally it would appear that they are reasonably accurate for our purposes. We are dealing with a group of people who, at least up to the present time, are under twenty-one. And while, as I am sure the hon. member for Lanark would agree, there can be a difference of opinion about almost anything in the medical world, there is nevertheless a reasonable certainty that these X-rays can give a clear indication, within certain limits, of the age of any person in that age group.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Let us suppose that a prospective immigrant boy is able to answer the questions regarding his family connections. In those circumstances are the X-rays relied upon exclusively? In other words, if in the opinion of the medical officer the X-rays disclose a difference in age, would they be relied upon exclusively, in spite of the fact that the boy was able to answer the other questions satisfactorily?


Walter Edward Harris: We begin with the fact that, even if the examination has been satisfactory so far as the information is concerned, and if after that our inspector concludes that the age of the boy is not that of the supposed son, it is at that point that he is given the option of having X-rays taken to see if they will convince the inspector that he has estimated the age incorrectly. We have had cases where applicants have answered examinations with reasonable satisfaction, but the X-rays have shown them to be four or five years beyond the ages stipulated in the applications.


Mr. Quelch:: Mr. Chairman, I have received several complaints from farmers in western Canada regarding immigrants who, apparently, had come out under contract to work for so many months, so as to repay the money advanced for their fares. The complaints

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration were that many of them did not stay the specified time, so that the farmers were out the amount of money advanced.
Has this experience been general? In cases where it has happened, has it always been the immigrant who was to blame or, on the other hand, have some of those immigrants been asked to live under conditions under which they should not have been expected to live. Could the minister say whether that policy is being followed today?


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, so far as the government's assisted passage scheme is concerned, I doubt if the persons my hon. friend mentioned would have been under that scheme. The plan went into effect only on February 1, and I suppose the persons about whom he has spoken came forward to farmers who prepaid their passages so as to get them out here.


Victor Quelch: Apparently the inspector went out to inspect the accommodation before the immigrants came; so it must have been under a government plan of some kind. The farms were inspected before the farmers were allowed to have the immigrants.


Walter Edward Harris: If a farmer has applied for a farm worker, we inspect the premises to see if (a) he needs the worker and (b) he has reasonably good facilities for accommodation. That is part of the preliminary inquiry as to whether the application will be approved or not.
Having done that, the information with respect to conditions is given to the immigrant abroad. We may not go into great detail, but I want to assure the committee that we do not paint a rosy picture if there is not one there. If at that time the local employer, in order to expedite the coming of the immigrant, chooses to advance money, that is his own responsibility. We do not ask him to do it-although we are often asked if they should.


Victor Quelch: At the present time I understand the government puts up the money. The farmer is not asked to put up the money at all.


Walter Edward Harris: Since February 1, the plan has been in operation, and is just beginning to function.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Referring back to the discussion of the X-ray method, may I ask the minister if it is not a fact that the American immigration authorities have discarded the X-ray method of checking with respect to Oriental immigrants?


Walter Edward Harris: I am not aware of that although it has been stated during debates in this house. We have found X-ray

examination to be reasonably accurate for our purposes and I think it will be continued.


George Matheson Murray: Could a greater
number of immigrants be sent to British Columbia and north of Edmonton? I looked over the records some time ago and found that some 3,000 had come to Ontario, a similar number to Quebec, but only a few hundred to British Columbia. It is most important that white population be placed in the valleys that face the Pacific coast. Is the department getting any co-operation from the government of British Columbia in respect to settlement, from the transcontinental railroad who paid great attention to settlement in former years and from the Northern Alberta Railway which is supposed to be a colonization road running from Edmonton into the Peace river country and to the north.


Walter Edward Harris: At the moment the great emphasis on immigration is for workers rather than for land settlers. Nevertheless we recognize that British Columbia and the Peace river area offer a good field for settlement. We have taken steps to see if we can get people to go there as part of our settlement scheme. To that end we have continued the pre-war close arrangement with the railroads to bring forward settlers on terms which perhaps are rather detailed. We do encourage the railroads to continue the colonization schemes they had prior to the war.
With respect to the immediate future we have made a decision which I think will aid my hon. friend in the plans he has in mind. We have provided that the Canadian government will absorb the differential in the cost of inland rail transportation between points west of Winnipeg for immigrants who come to Canada under the assisted passage loan scheme, provided they stay in the class of employment for which they are selected for a period of one year. Our reason for doing that is the reason my hon. friend has given, because a large percentage of the immigrants have been coming to Quebec and Ontario.


John Lambert Gibson: I wonder if I might refer to the remarks of the hon. member for Battle River who asked some questions with regard to the entry of adopted children of Chinese. I know that this concerns only a small number of Chinese children but I am sure the minister has had brought to his attention these unfortunate cases of children who have been adopted by Chinese in Canada. I wonder if he would put this matter up to his cabinet colleagues and ask them to pass an order in council granting permission to these adopted children to enter Canada, provided the minister is satisfied that they are really the adopted

children of Chinese citizens of Canada. I doubt if there would be more than fifty or one hundred children involved. As I have made clear in the past, I am opposed to unlimited Chinese immigration, but I think there are strong compassionate grounds for permitting such children to enter.


Charles Edward Johnston: Are Chinese now living here exempt from military service? Are Chinese who are coming in under this new policy exempt from military service?


Walter Edward Harris: I am not aware of any exemption from military service except of those groups which were admitted by order in council under a special arrangement in 1898. There may be certain Men-nonites and what are commonly known as Doukhobors in this class.


Major James William Coldwell: I hope the minister will consider the representations with regard to the adopted children of Chinese, but that is not what I really rose to ask. We have had some interesting figures regarding immigration and I should like to know if there have been any deportations in the last year and, if so, for what causes. I ask this because of the letter I received some months ago complaining that some of the immigrants were afraid they might be deported if they applied for public assistance.


Walter Edward Harris: That information appears in the annual report for the year ended March 31, 1950. The total number deported was 422, for the following reasons:
Medical cases	 50
Public charges	 33
Criminality	 103
Other civil cases	 230
Dependents accompanying those deported.. 6


Major James William Coldwell: There is a medical examination in the country of origin and it seems to me that if we examine these people medically and accept them we are under obligation to permit them to remain. It seems to me that to deport these people is creating a great hardship after they have been allowed to come to the country.


Mr. Low:: Could the minister give the details of the other civil cases?


Walter Edward Harris: Most of those wouldi he deserters from ships who have been picked up and ordered deported.


Edmund Davie Fulton: A question was raised the other day regarding a sect of the Doukhobors known as the Sons of Freedom and it appears that consideration is being given in British Columbia to moving this sect from its present location in the southeast comer of the province to a lower central location.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


James Sinclair: Hear, hear, Kamloops. A splendid idea. Everybody approves.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am glad the hon. member for Coast-Capilano is so disinterested in the welfare of the constituency which I represent that without further consideration he says, "Hear, hear".


James Sinclair: The Doukhobors would be so well represented.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I did not catch that remark.


James Sinclair: I was pointing out that for the first time the Doukhobors would have adequate representation in the House of Commons.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Well, I am not quite sure I could accept that at the expense of the hon. member for Kootenay West, who at the present time has them in his constituency. I did not intend to get into an argument with the hon. member for Coast-Capilano, who I am sure would be delighted to have these people settle in his constituency, since after all he does not have very many people there to represent. It has been suggested that there is a certain interest on the part of the federal government in this question of the movement of the Doukhobors, and I have been receiving representations in that connection. It has also been represented to me that certain untoward incidents have occurred, I believe in connection with what they call stripping; and I have also been informed that there is a consultative committee of the provincial and federal governments. But it does not seem clear what is the situation and who is responsible for the settlement of this Doukho-bor colony, and I would be grateful if the minister would make a statement that would settle the question of responsibility.


Walter Edward Harris: This question was raised the other day by the hon. member for Kootenay West, and I was quite surprised when it was addressed to me, since in the past questions having to do with the Doukhobors have been addressed to the Minister of Justice. Upon looking into it, however, I find that a committee has been established by the provincial government, which asked an official of the citizenship branch to assist them. Our regional liaison officer in citizenship appears to be sitting on that committee trying, I have no doubt, to improve the status of citizenship of these people. In doing so he is only aiding the provincial government in the field of citizenship, as any official would if asked by a provincial government to aid in a matter having to do with improving citizenship. I cannot make any statement as to what the committee is discussing or deciding, but in any event there is no responsibility in this department for what is happening.
4868	HOUSE OF
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Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: I cannot possibly let these remarks go without saying a word. I have a number of Doukhobors in my constituency, and I want to say they are some of the finest people who ever came to Canada. They are good, industrious, clean and fine farmers; and just because the Sons of Freedom have gone bad, as you might say, is no reason why anyone should get up in this house and say things about the Doukhobors who came to this country to make homes for themselves. They have done their best, and they have done a great deal to make western Canada what it is today.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I want to make it quite clear that I agree with the hon. member who has just spoken that the Doukhobors are good farmers indeed. Unfortunately the group to which I referred have become the subject of some controversy in my province. All I am asking is whether the federal government has any responsibility in the matter of their movement or resettlement, and I understand the minister to say the federal government has no responsibility in that connection.


Walter Edward Harris: My answer was that this branch of the government has no concern with that matter.


John Lambert Gibson: The minister did not answer my suggestion that he discuss with the government the matter of the admissibility of adopted minor children of Canadians of Chinese ancestry.


Walter Edward Harris: Cases have been brought to my attention in which it would appear that Chinese parents in this country are applying for the admission of children who have been adopted while one parent or the other was in China. It is difficult to determine just how far these adoptions have taken the form of what we would consider western adoptions rather than those which are common in the east; nevertheless the government is at all times ready to give consideration to any matter raised by an hon. member, and I promise to give consideration to what has been said by the hon. gentleman.


Agar Rodney Adamson: In saying what I did about German immigration I would not want it to be taken from my remarks that I would not welcome the greatest possible percentage of British immigrants. When I was in London there was a backlog of some 50,000 names in the Ontario office of people who had indicated that they wanted to come to Canada, but were waiting because of financial or other reasons. A tremendous number of British people want to come to Canada, and I hope they will come.


Then I have one more suggestion to offer the minister. I suggest that he send to his missions pictures of the king and queen, of these parliament buildings and possibly of this chamber.


John Lambert Gibson: How about George Drew?


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is a bright one. I make that suggestion because of an incident that occurred while I was in Salzburg, where the picture of the Prime Minister was on the wall. One of the Czech immigrants, not knowing who it was, asked another, and the reply was, "That is Juan Peron." The first one replied, "Well, where is Evita?" It is not quite dignified for the Prime Minister to be mistaken for Peron. I suggest there is nothing the European so admires about Canada, apart from its physical attributes, as our form of government and our monarch. So I think the minister would be well advised if he had pictures such as I mentioned displayed at the missions, setting out very clearly the type of government we have here. Several prospective immigrants suggested to me they had no idea what form of government we had in Canada.


George Alexander Drew: 
Walter Edward Harris: 
Major James William Coldwell: How many of those have come through the assisted passage? I think the assisted passage scheme, so far as I can understand it, is a good one.


Walter Edward Harris: It is not possible to say yet. The number of warrants which have come forward total only 1,840 because of the time lag, and a large percentage of those are from the United Kingdom.


George Alexander Drew: I asked the question because I was under the impression that the minister had stated on earlier occasions that a request had been made that the government of the United Kingdom give consideration to the relaxation of the restriction on funds. Is that not correct?


Walter Edward Harris: I said that a year ago. I said that we were going to do so.


George Alexander Drew: Then I understand from the minister that he thought it was done?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes.


George Alexander Drew: The reason I ask that question is that on Thursday, April 26, there appears the following question and answer in the Hansard of the British House of Commons:
No. 54. Mr. Leather: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, what requests the Canadian government has made to His Majesty's government to increase the present amount of transferable funds for emigrants; when such requests were made; and what action His Majesty's government has taken.
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Mr. Douglas  Jay@: No formal request has been
made on this subject by the Canadian government.
That, Mr. Chairman, is a record of the question and answer that appears in Hansard for April 26 of this year. I think that the minister should give us some explanation as to the reason why the representative of the chancellor of the exchequer stated that no formal representations had been made by the Canadian government regarding this subject, in view of the earlier statement made to this house.


Walter Edward Harris: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, we are not understanding the use of our own words. In the speech I made a year ago I did suggest that our troubles lay partly in the restrictions on currency, and I expressed the hope that those restrictions would be lifted. I do not know whether or not that would be a formal application, but it was a statement of the hopes of this government that the restrictions would be lifted. I have repeated that on many occasions since. I have no reason to doubt that those representations were known, because they were debated in the house at Westminster.


George Alexander Drew: There is a vast difference between a statement being made in this house and representations being made. I simply asked the question in view of this question and answer to which I have referred. Were formal representations made by the Canadian government to the government of the United Kingdom requesting relaxation of their restrictions on the transfer of funds by immigrants coming to Canada?


Walter Edward Harris: The answer is no.


George Alexander Drew: 
Walter Edward Harris: Perhaps again we are misunderstanding each other, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member asked me a moment ago if formal representations had been made. I thought he meant at that time, in April, and I answered no. Formal representations have been made since that time, leading I take it to the announcement which was made the other day in the house at Westminster. Should there be any doubt about the situation with respect to immigration from the United Kingdom, I should like to point out that we have at the moment 35,346 British subjects who have had their applications for immigration to this country approved. This has been due in large part, I think, to the increased interest in immigration which became apparent about November, perhaps October of last year. Now, it may very well be that the number greatly increased when we announced the assisted passage scheme in late December. At any rate, all winter our officers have seen a substantial increase in the number that they have handled. We think the announcement made the other day will stimulate the numbers who will apply, although there was no sign of let-up before the announcement was made.
Nevertheless, it would appear that we are in agreement that the currency restrictions did bring about the drop in numbers applying in the late 1948, 1949 and early in 1950, but numbers applied before the present change in restrictions.


Major James William Coldwell: How many points are now available to the immigrants on the continent of Europe? At what points may immigrants be examined who wish to leave the continent of Europe? Have some new points of examination been added?


Walter Edward Harris: We have officers at Athens, Berne, Brussels, Copenhagen, Hanover, Karlsruhe, Paris, Rome, Salzburg, Stockholm and the Hague.
IMr. Drew.]


George Alexander Drew: In order that we may be quite clear on what has taken place, on what date was the formal representation made to which the minister now refers, and what was the nature of that representation?


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman, I do not think I should disclose the representations which were made, except to say that they were to the effect that we would hope that the British government would ease the restrictions. The formal representations were made since the Secretary of State for External Affairs left a week ago.


George Alexander Drew: So that the first formal representation that has been made by the government under this new department is within the past week?


Walter Edward Harris: I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman; the formal representations were made in May and were followed up by the Secretary of State for External Affairs since.


Mr. Lesage:: May I ask the minister if there are any currency restrictions in France that would affect French immigrants? And are there any currency restrictions in Belgium and Holland which would affect immigrants to this country?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The government of the Netherlands restricts the amount which can be brought out to $200. That was $100 up until recently but those restrictions were eased. The government of France restricts the amount to $300, and there has been some hope recently that it may be increased to $600. The government of Belgium restricts the amount to- and I am speaking from my recollection- $2,000. I have not the figures with regard to that.


Jean Lesage: The minister has said that some representations have been made to the United Kingdom government in the hope of obtaining relaxation of the currency regulations. Have some similar representations been made to the governments of France, Belgium and Holland?


Walter Edward Harris: No formal representations have been made; but as I pointed out a while ago, I have repeatedly made statements that we would hope that these currency restrictions would be lifted.


Léon Balcer: May I ask the minister if he is ready to give an answer to the question asked by the hon. member for Peterborough West with regard to the deportation of Fred Rose?


Walter Edward Harris: Fred Rose was convicted and sentenced to prison for an

offence under the Official Secrets Act. At the time that was done the citizenship act was so worded that it did not cover that particular crime as one which could be used to revoke his citizenship. When the citizenship act was introduced into this house in the fall, I take it, of 1946 the provision was made that citizenship might be revoked with respect to a person who has shown himself by act or speech to be disaffected or disloyal to His Majesty. There was a lengthy debate in the house, in which many opposition members contended that that was too broad a definition, with the result that an amendment was presented by one of the opposition members, and the section was amended to read as follows:
A person who has been convicted of treason or sedition by a court of competent jurisdiction.
That was the state of the law at the time of this conviction. The result was that Fred Rose could not have his citizenship revoked under the law as it was at that time. The committee will remember that this year we amended the law to put it substantially in the words in which it had been first introduced into the house. But at that time I pointed out that it was not retroactive and would not affect Fred Rose. The result is that he cannot have his citizenship revoked under the law at the present time. That brings the further result that you cannot deport a person who has Canadian citizenship.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-
Welfare of Indians-
69. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $911,570.
Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the minister
whether the rebuilding of the Indian residential school at Norway House will be proceeded with this year or some time soon?


Walter Edward Harris: We have provided the money for Norway House school. We are now in the process of trying to lead up to letting contracts. The work will be begun this year. It may not be completed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-
Education-day and residential schools-
72. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $2,737,075.
John Alpheus Charlton: This is an item of almost
$3 million for the construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment. I wonder if the minister can give us some idea of where those buildings are going to be put up?
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


Walter Edward Harris: Mr. Chairman,
we have twelve pages in this book with respect to this matter, and I would prefer it if my hon. friend would look at them rather than ask me to read them.


John Alpheus Charlton: There may be twelve pages there, Mr. Chairman, but after all the minister is not going to read the whole twelve pages. Surely there are some items there which are of more importance than others. This is an item of almost $3 million. The amount is not going to be divided up into $10 bits, surely.


Walter Edward Harris: The largest one I see on the first page is $35,000, which is in Restigouche. The largest on the second page is $100,000 at Moose Fort; the largest on the third page is $35,000 at Sturgeon lake; the largest on the fourth page is $40,000 at Stand Off in Alberta; the largest on the fifth pags is $50,000 at Fort Babine in Babine agency; the largest one on the next page is $20,000 in the west coast agency; the largest on the next page is $9,875 at the arctic Red river, followed by Norway House, $350,000. The largest on the next page is equipment for these day schools, $150,000. Equipment at Seven Islands, $30,000; at Lower Post, $15,000; at Cariboo, $3,200. I have chosen the largest items on each page.


George Alexander Drew: Where is the school at Moose
Fort?


Walter Edward Harris: This is to provide for the purchase of the existing school of the Church of England.


George Alexander Drew: Whereabouts?


Walter Edward Harris: Well, I must
say I could not give the precise point.


George Alexander Drew: I am interested in it for a
particular reason. Is Moose Fort the island of Moose Factory?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes, there is a
residential school there, and it is at what we call Moose Fort, and is at Moose Factory.


George Alexander Drew: Is that day school to be
expanded? Is the $100,000 to be spent for the improvement of the present school or the construction of a new school?


Walter Edward Harris: It is for the
expansion of the present school to provide for a new classroom.


George Alexander Drew: Has the minister any indication of the effect that will have on the present attendance of pupils at the school a few miles away at Moosonee?


Walter Edward Harris: I presume that the school at Moosonee is a provincial school.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration


George Alexander Drew: That is right.


Walter Edward Harris: We think that the accommodation we have, or that we are providing for, is required. They are taking in Indian pupils at the provincial school, but this additional accommodation is necessary.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Is there anything in this vote for expansion of the school at Tobique reserve?


John Alpheus Charlton: Did I understand the minister to say that they are acquiring a school now run by the Church of England?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: Is that the one?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes.


John Alpheus Charlton: And the $100,000 includes the purchase and the repair of it?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes; we have been negotiating for some time to purchase the Church of England school and to add to it, and this is for that purpose.


John Alpheus Charlton: Have there been any other purchases of that kind across Canada?


Walter Edward Harris: There is one other in the northwest, and there are several others that the Church of England has suggested we might buy, and we have been obtaining reports on them.


George Alexander Drew: Will that be operated by the department or by the Church of England?


Walter Edward Harris: Operated as a departmental school, but retaining the present connection of the Church of England in the sense that the facilities will be continued.


Major James William Coldwell: In the event of a change of this description can these schools be operated in conjunction with the provincial departments of education so that the certification of teachers and inspection of schools and conditions generally are analogous to those pertaining in the provinces that are contiguous
to those areas? Has any attempt been made by the department to enter into negotiations with any of the provinces? If so, with what results? I do think, in taking over schools like these and the department operating them, the department has not the facilities to do this kind of job that the provinces have. It seems to me that it would be sensible to work in co-operation with the provinces and with departments of education that would certify teachers, inspect the system and so on, supervise the schools and bring them up to standard. I think we are all anxious that the Indian children shall have the same levels of education as the other children in the country. I have always been of the opinion that given the opportunity the Indian children would measure up just as well as the children of any other group of Canadians, and would be able to play a much greater part in the life of the country, and do much for their own people in the way of giving those who have not those advantages a great deal of leadership.


Walter Edward Harris: As the house knows, Mr. Chairman, we have followed a policy of permitting Indian children to attend provincial schools wherever convenient and possible, and that policy has shown that we have increased during the past year by something over 400 the numbers attending provincial schools. For example, in the last fiscal year, ended March, 1950, there were 1,645. There are now 2,032. If the committee would permit I would put on the record a statement showing the enrolment at Indian schools and the numbers attending the provincial schools as well, by grades and so on.


Major James William Coldwell: And by provinces?


Walter Edward Harris: And by provinces.
The Depuiy Chairman: Is it agreed?


Some hon. Members:: Yes.


Walter Edward Harris: The table follows;

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ENROLMENT AT INDIAN SCHOOLS

[Stage Direction]
1.	Fiscal Year Ended March 31,1950
-	I	II	III	IV	V	VI	VII	VIII	IX	X	XI	XII	TotalsP F, T	19	8	5	2	7	3	1	1	46N S	175	81	121	80	49	49	18	10	9	592N P	126	661	49	50	47	19	20	20	397691	348	269	214	166	132	88	41	8	1,9571,708	744	* 741	585	534	417	262	261	91	21	26	8	5,3981,371	488	480	312	219	122	115	53	48	3,2081,157	503	424	368	319	221	144	60	32	1	3,229'919	449	380	346	273	204	131	50	18	4	1	2,775B.C	1,612	848	696	502	489	322	205	118	73	9	11	1	4,886N.W.T	303	98	81	58	41	42	15	6	3	2	1	1	651118	53	48	23	15	6	4	3	270
Totals		8,199	3,686	3,294	2,540	2,152	1,541	1,005	623	283	37	38	11	23,409
													1,645
													25,054
													
Enrolment for Fiscal Year 1950-51
Total Enrolment-Indian Day schools	 15,478
-Combined schools	 36
-Residential schools	 9,357
Indian children attending provincial and private schools-elementary grades	
Indian children attending provincial and private schools-secondary grades and special courses (7 at University)	
24,871
1,468
Total
26,903
3.	New Class Rooms
Erected fiscal year 1950-1951	 72
Provided for in estimates 1951-1952	 102
Heber Harold Hatfield: May I have an answer to my question?


Walter Edward Harris: There is a provision of $2,000 to complete the Tobique school in the Tobique agency.


George Alexander Drew: I want to be clear about this school at Moose Factory, because it raises a question which has been referred to by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, namely, the desirability of attaining some uniform standards or some uniform standard right across the country, which is in keeping with the general educational levels.
I happen to know that there is an excellent school at Moosonee, which is only a few miles from Moose Factory. That school is being maintained on the ordinary standards of the schools of the province. I am interested in why this department should be taking over a school on the island at Moose Factory when
I gather that the school at Moosonee is not yet overcrowded and is capable of taking care of children from the island. I know that there is a problem of communication for the period of the freeze-up and the break-up, but in between that there is no great problem moving backward and forward. Because of the desirability of attaining standards of this kind, I should like to know whether the plan that is under way is one which has been considered in consultation with the department of education in the province of Ontario.


Walter Edward Harris: The day school at Moosonee is, I am informed, practically full and Indian children who are attending there have been the subject of discussion with the provincial government. We feel, however, that we need these additional facilities. In these facilities we will be providing the
4874	HOUSE OF
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration same curriculum as is provided in the provincial school and with practically the same standard of examination and inspection.


George Alexander Drew: The minister did not answer my question. He has said that they have been discussing the attendance of Indian children at the school at Moosonee. My question was: Has the department of education of the province of Ontario been consulted as to the desirability or wisdom of operating this school on the island, because it would seem to me that from their experience at that point they would have some knowledge as to how this matter could best be dealt with.


Walter Edward Harris: No, Mr. Chairman, This is a residential school, at the moment owned and operated by the Church of England. It is contemplated to acquire it as part of the educational system of the Indian affairs branch; but the department of education of the provincial government, while I have no doubt that their advice would be of advantage on any matter of education, are not directly concerned with the education of Indian children except in so far as we may be able to arrange suitable school accommodation rather than to build it or provide it ourselves.


George Alexander Drew: I am not going to extend the remarks beyond saying that I think the course being followed is far from progressive, because the provinces have departments of education. Much could be gained by seeking co-operation with them in regard to decisions of this kind.
The minister has said they have discussed with provincial authorities the attendance of the Indian children at the day school at Moosonee. He did not say what the nature of the discussion was, or the reason for it. I am not in any way questioning the standard of education or the qualifications of those handling the school at Moose Factory. But, I think, too, there was a great deal of discussion as to the wisdom or otherwise of extending the school facilities at two different points only a few miles apart. If this has not been proceeded with, then I would urge strongly that the department should not proceed with it until the matter has been discussed with those who have had a good deal of experience in Moosonee, what the problems are and how this subject can best be tackled. I say that because those teachers at Moosonee have now had a great deal of experience in teaching Indian children in the day school. I know the school at Moose Factory, and they also have had considerable experience.
But they are two different types of school. I think here, and right across the country,


there should be a rationalization of the handling of education as between schools operated by the department and provincial schools, so that so far as possible the whole educational procedure is brought within the same standards and, so far as possible, within the administrative jurisdiction of the provincial authorities.


Walter Edward Harris: Let us be perfectly clear. The new Indian Act, or Indian bill, has not yet been proclaimed. In it for the first time we have provided for the making of an agreement with the provinces with respect to the education of Indian children. Until it is proclaimed there is no practical result to be obtained immediately from any such contract.
Nevertheless the particular problem at Moose Factory is one in which the provincial government at the present time could not be of any assistance. This is a residential school, a school to which children come and stay, and whose parents are not looking after them. That group has to be provided with accommodation, which cannot be provided for in the day school at Moosonee. That is the reason we have the school as it is.


George Alexander Drew: Can the minister say whether the contractors who have been building the hospital are going to carry out the additions to this school at Moose Factory?


Walter Edward Harris: I am informed that the heating, lighting and water system is being provided from the hospital. As to the other improvements, I must say I am not familiar with who is doing them.


George Alexander Drew: Does the minister mean that the lighting and heating and other facilities are being installed by the same contractors as are building the hospital?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes.
74. Fur conservation-operation and maintenance, $313,063.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: We generally have a statement from the minister on this item. It is revenue producing, and it would be well for the committee to know what the prospects of revenue from this conservation would be, after this expenditure of $313,063. What furbearing animals are bred and conserved? Are they the property of the federal government or the provincial governments? I notice a reference to expert fur graders, and to other officials. The committee should have some statement from the minister.


Walter Edward Harris: The amount is divided as follows:	In Saskatchewan the
increase is $45,000, in Manitoba $60,000 and in Ontario, $75,000. These are agreements with the provincial governments whereby

fur-conservation schemes are maintained in the trapping areas. The purpose is not only to aid in fur-conservation but to increase the income of Indian trappers. The facilities are supplied by the provincial governments. We are represented on the planning committee by officials of the appropriate branch, and we contribute in most cases a fixed percentage of the annual budget, with a ceiling.
The hon. member asked this question last year, and I answered that there was no revenue to this department or government from this work. That is true at the present time as well. This is a straight case of trying to help the Indian trappers who, in turn, will retain their trap lines and get better revenue, and-at the same time provide a system of conservation in that remote area so that the fur-bearing population will be maintained and increased to the advantage of all in the trapping business.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What kind of fur-bearing
animals are you endeavouring to conserve?


Walter Edward Harris: Largely beaver and muskrat.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Last year there were some millions of muskrats from that area. That must have brought in a greater revenue than is shown in these figures. Two million muskrats are supposed to have been taken out of there.


Walter Edward Harris: That is true;
but I believe the provincial authorities make a small charge for the services of the persons who do the organizing, and deduct that from the income. But the remainder of the income goes to the trappers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
672. Citizenship branch; further amount required. $24,484.
Mr. Fulford:: Those of us who are fortunate enough to live near Ottawa have brought groups of school children here. From the county of Leeds I have brought here about a thousand, representing more than twenty schools. There is no souvenir those children can take home to remind them of what they saw while they visited these parliament buildings. There is available, of course, a rather expensive publication; but it is beyond the pocketbook of the average school child.
I suggest through you, Mr. Chairman, that the minister consider the publication of a pamphlet similar to that put out by the federal district commission in which the new Ottawa plan is described. Such a pamphlet need not be long, but I believe it should contain some illustrations of the parliament buildings, including perhaps this chamber
28, 1951
Supply-Citizenship and Immigration and the Senate, and other points of interest they have seen while they have been here. It should contain a description of Ottawa and a summary of its history-something they could take home to study, and to bring back to mind what they saw while they were here.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
673. Administration of the Immigration Act, further amount required, $50,000.
Donald Methuen Fleming: Early in this session, I
believe it was on the debate with respect to the Canadian Citizenship Act, the minister indicated it was the government's intention at this session to introduce an amendment to the Immigration Act. Is it the intention to introduce those amendments at the fall session?


Walter Edward Harris: Yes. We had
them ready but we thought that with the present agenda they would not be reached at this session and they will be reached at an early date in the fall session.


Stanley Howard Knowles: About an hour ago I condensed what might have been a ten minute speech into about half a minute by telling the minister that I had in my hand a copy of a memorandum which had been submitted to him by certain Chinese organizations. I gathered from the gestures made by the minister at that time that he did not have his copy so I sent my copy over to him. That meant that I did not have the memorandum on my desk to use in questioning the minister. I recall, however, that there were five headings in the memorandum -I am glad to note that the minister is now looking at it. He commented on the question of determining the age of children by the use of X-ray; he commented also on the question of abolishing the age limit with respect to children, but he has not commented on the questions of prospective brides, agricultural workers and citizenship for Canadians of Chinese origin now in Canada under special permit. I would appreciate it if he would make a statement on these matters now.


Walter Edward Harris: I apologize for
not following up the kindness of the hon. member in sending me his copy of the memo which contained five points. First was the matter of X-rays, which we have covered. Second was the question of abolishing the age limit, which has been covered. Third was the matter of permitting prospective brides to come here to marry Chinese citizens. I can only give the committee the answer I gave to the delegation which submitted this memorandum and that was that we had rather unfortunate results with this

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration practice previously and unless we could be sure that other results would ensue we would not try the experiment again.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Has the minister noted the suggestions they make in the brief in that connection?


Walter Edward Harris: I think in fairness to those who made the representations, and I am quite sure they did so with the best of intentions, I should say that I pointed out to them that it was unrealistic to take a bond from anyone that he would perform a future act of this kind and then try to enforce it. They understood my point.
The next representation was that certain trained Chinese agriculturists should be permitted to come to Canada. I pointed out that this was the first such representation we had received from any group and we would consider it and advise them of what our policy would be.
The next matter had to do with granting permanent landings to Chinese who were here under temporary arrangements. Early this year we began a study of the files of all Chinese who are here under temporary permits to see if we were justified in granting permanent landings to some of them. I indicated that some had been granted permanent landings and we would continue the examination of the files and if the circumstances warranted we would grant further permanent landings.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-
Indian agencies-
676. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $105,400.
Mr. Applewhaiie:: I have received a request from the Indians at Greenville asking me to make another attempt to have a water service provided in the village. The present water service, if you can call it such, is very unsanitary. There is no fire protection in the village and this is a matter which has been before the department in one form or another for several years.


Walter Edward Harris: There is a vote here of $16,000 in connection with the Greenville water supply and we will try to have it done this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Alphonse Fournier: If I may have the unanimous consent of the committee I would ask the consent of the committee to have the supplementary estimates of the Department of Agriculture taken up now. These were

not announced last night but if there is no objection we would like to proceed with them now.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Experimental farms service-
657.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $267,210.


George Clyde Nowlan: Can the parliamentary assistant give any information with regard to the possible acquisition of additional land for the branch station at Kentville, Nova Scotia? Unless this land is purchased it may be used for a residential subdivision which would impair the value of the experimental farm.


Mr. McCubbin:: I understand that that has already been bought.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production service-
Health of animals-
658.	Administration of Animal Contagious Diseases Act and Meat and Canned Foods Act-further amount required, $53,894.
Mr. Darroch:: I should like to make some suggestions to the parliamentary assistant in connection with the administration of this branch. I am not objecting to the amount of the vote, but I think arrangements could be made that would facilitate the movement of cattle from the western provinces to feeder farms in Ontario. A year or two ago arrangements were made whereby an Ontario farmer could purchase a carload or carloads of cattle in the western provinces and have them needled in Winnipeg for t.b. If three days had elapsed before they arrived at his own farm and the results were known the cattle could be retained. If that time had not elapsed, they would be held in the Ontario yards at Toronto. I think that was a very good arrangement. At the present time if an Ontario farmer wishes to purchase a carload of feeder cows, that arrangement does not apply. I think it would be a service to Ontario feeders if the same arrangement applied to feeder cows that applies at present to feeder heifers. At the present time these cows are unloaded at Toronto, needled, and held there for three days. The objection is not so much because of the cost of keeping the cattle there as because they are exposed to disease, particularly what we farmers call shipping fever. This is something that could be remedied very easily, so these cows could go through without being exposed to this disease. When a farmer comes to the yards at Toronto and wants to buy a truckload of cattle, he might take nine or ten feeder steers and perhaps three or four dairy

heifers, as they are termed by the veterinary. The steers can be bought and a clearance obtained to take them out, but they hold the dairy heifers for three days until the tests are completed. Again these cattle are exposed to such diseases as shipping fever with which those yards are reeking, particularly in the fall when they are handling many carloads a day.
I suggest to the department that it is time for a change. Probably this procedure had its place in the past but it has served its purpose now that the whole province is tested, so I do not see why these dairy heifers should be held, particularly at a time when we need more dairy cows. I know from my own experience and the conversations I have had with commission men in the yards at Toronto that many sales are lost of heifers which ordinarily would be taken to the country. I also suggest that the facilities at Ontario yards, which are under the control of federal health of animals branch, should be improved. There are not enough needling pens. In the fall when there is a considerable run of stockers the facilities are quite insufficient, and many people are inconvenienced by not being able to get their stock out the day it is purchased. These are some things I think might very well be taken care of and improved.


Robert McCubbin: I am in hearty sympathy with the hon. member's request, and we will see what we can do in respect to it.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: I would like to say a word also about feeder cattle. Does the dominion have jurisdiction over the yards in the big cities of Ontario, or is it the Ontario government?


Robert McCubbin: As the hon. member knows, the yards are owned by the provincial government, but we supervise them.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: That is exactly what I am getting at. I think something more should be done than is being done, because we get so much shipping fever through those yards. Last year I bought a load of cattle that came from Montreal, and I lost five. I would have lost more but for the fact that we caught it just in time. It is a disease that spreads very quickly, and unless it is caught in time it is difficult to handle. I think there should be a stricter check of cattle in transit from one place to another. Certainly they should be inoculated before they are loaded and again as soon as they arrive at any city to be transferred elsewhere.


Robert McCubbin: I am certainly in accord with what the hon. member has said, and I lan tell him that last year we supplied some 540,000 worth of vaccine in an endeavour to assist.
Supply-Agriculture


John Alpheus Charlton: Could the parliamentary assistant tell us what counties are left in Ontario still not tested under the accredited area plan?


Robert McCubbin: I am sorry I cannot answer that question. The great majority are done but there may be some left. I will try to get the information and give it to the hon. member.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
660. Grants to agricultural organizations, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required. $7,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: This is a grant to the Canadian national livestock records. What livestock records are not included? Are any records kept apart from the national livestock records, and if so do they receive grants also?


Robert McCubbin: The only one that is out is the holstein association, and they do not receive any grant.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: How is it they can operate very successfully without a grant while the Canadian National has to have a grant each year, and their registration rates are higher than the holstein association? Is it bad management by the government, or what?


Robert McCubbin: There are a number of small breeding associations that cannot operate successfully by themselves. The holstein association is the largest one. The others operate co-operatively. Some of them are not able to manage, but they share the cost between them.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Do not some of these organizations have large surpluses? Does not the Canadian livestock association have a large surplus?


Robert McCubbin: It is true that some of the breeding associations have large surpluses. Other smaller associations have not, but they all pay their share in respect to these livestock records.


Heber Harold Hatfield: But why should we give them a grant when they have surpluses?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The silver fox association have a very large surplus; yet they are in these national records the same as the others.


Robert McCubbin: They have a surplus, but they pay their share the same as the other associations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Terminable services-
662. Freight assistance on western feed grains- further amount required, $10,500,000.
Major James William Coldwell: This is an additional amount for freight assistance on feed grains, and I

Supply-Agriculture
notice that taken together the two items in the estimates amount to about $15 million. We are very glad to support this, but I point out that when $65 million was voted to the western farmers a short time ago as compensation, some people misunderstood it. That covered a period of five years, or an average of $13 million a year. This vote is $15 million for one year. We are glad to support it because we think it is in the interests of agriculture generally, but I want to bring that point to the attention of the committee.


George Clyde Nowlan: This is a matter on which I would like to comment for a considerable time, but will not do so tonight because of the lateness of the session. I quite agree that this is important to agriculture. Without discussing the merits of the $65 million vote I want to state that in my opinion and I think in the opinion of anyone who has any knowledge of eastern agriculture scarcely any expenditure that could be made by the government would result in a greater production. You may spend a few million dollars on this item. I have the figures, and if I were not patient and respectful of this committee I would have them put on the record to show that hundreds of millions of dollars of increased production have resulted from this expenditure.
I have one regretful suggestion with respect to this. Each year we have to wait until the supplementary estimates come down before we know whether these payments are to be continued for another year. This is one of the most important factors contributing to the success of at least the dairy industry and poultry industry-I will not say eastern Canada because I am not competent to say that, but I can say in the maritime provinces. I know that the producers of those two foodstuffs have been anxiously awaiting the supplementary estimates to ascertain whether the payments were included. I would urge upon the parliamentary assistant and the government that this matter should be incorporated as a permanent feature of our agricultural economy. We should not be dependent upon yearly grants, and waiting in doubt and uncertainty. This expires at the end of July, and we are now almost at the end of June. We do not know until these estimates come down whether the matter will be covered. I want to put that on the record.
I also notice that the amount for this year included in the general estimates comes to $15 million, whereas last year I believe it was $18 million or $18-5 million. Can the parliamentary assistant tell us what the reason is for the decrease in the vote?


Robert McCubbin: I am certainly in hearty accord with what the member for Annapolis-Kings has said, as well as the other two members. I think it should be a national policy, and I am going to bring it to the attention of the government. In respect to the amount, last year we only spent $15,600,000, and with the large crop in the offing we felt that $15 million this year would be sufficient.


George Clyde Nowlan: You expect to move as much grain or give as much assistance this year as you did last year?


Robert McCubbin: We expect the volume will be smaller than it was last year.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: At what time does this
terminate?


Robert McCubbin: March 31, 1952.


Mr. George:: I was pleased the subsidy was being continued. I say so because it is a subsidy which enables cheaper food to be produced for the citizens of our country. If the assistance were not given on the freight, we would have either to increase the price of food or decrease the price of grain to the western producers.


Robert Fair: The hon. member suggested a few minutes ago that he hoped this subsidy on feed grain would be continued. I hope he has not got the same opinion about the $65 million subsidy which was paid because of the price at which our crops were sold. I hope that after this we shall get the full price for our wheat rather than have to accept the token payment of conscience money offered by the government, as was the case with the $65 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
663. Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and water storage-further amount required, $65,000,000.
Major James William Coldwell: Before this item is carried may I ask the parliamentary assistant, in view of the regrettable absence of the Minister of Agriculture who is on very interesting business in western Canada-I believe there is a by-election-if he can make any announcement regarding the appointment of the experts in connection with the South Saskatchewan river scheme? As many hon. members are returning to the west, they would like to know before the house rises exactly what the position is since the situation has changed so frequently over the last several years.


Robert McCubbin: In respect to the question I shall have to say that I do not know who they are. I shall leave it to the Prime Minister to make that announcement.


Major James William Coldwell: Will the parliamentary assistant ask the Prime Minister to make that announcement?


Robert McCubbin: I will transmit that request to him, but I cannot promise that he will do so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Mr. Chairman, it is eleven o'clock. I move the adjournment of the debate.


Alphonse Fournier: I do not know if the hon. gentleman knows, Mr. Chairman-


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: We cannot continue. Sitting here from eleven in the morning until the late hours, wasting time, and then staying all night.


Alphonse Fournier: I discussed the matter with the leaders of the opposition parties, and I thought it was understood that we would sit some time after eleven o'clock if we had unanimous consent.


Heber Harold Hatfield: We are not going to do that.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: It is eleven o'clock.


George Taylor Fulford: If we sit after eleven o'clock, I would move that we send the page boys home.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Does the committee give unanimous consent to sitting for a few minutes.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
665. Land protection and reclamation; clearing and settlement of new lands under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council-further amount required, $100,000.


Percy Ellis Wright: It states that this item is for the clearing and settlement of new lands as well as land protection and reclamation. I understand that part of the money goes towards clearing new lands, but I understood that lands were under provincial control. Just what does that mean, clearing and settlement of new lands? Where is this clearing and settling taking place, in what provinces? What is the amount in each province?


Robert McCubbin: Any money that is spent for this purpose is in co-operation with the provincial government. The only two places are Manitoba and Ontario.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is it being spent for clearing land or reclamation? I thought it was land protection and reclamation for which this money was being spent in Manitoba and Ontario. Is any of the money being used in those provinces for the clearing of land in the northern part of the provinces?
Supply-Agriculture


Robert McCubbin: For the last two years it has not been done.


Percy Ellis Wright: There is $250,000 in the
regular estimates and $100,000 here, so that $350,000 is all being spent for protection and reclamation of land; is that correct?


Robert McCubbin: That is correct, yes. This is a revote to continue the work in those two places.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
668. Amount required to recoup the agricultural prices support account to cover the net operating loss of the agricultural prices support board during the fiscal year 1950-51, $1,743,515.
Robert Fair: Before this item carries I should like to know what amount was expended under the prices support act in the last fiscal year, and what products were affected.


Robert McCubbin: The amount that is in the supplementary estimates is the amount we have spent in the last fiscal year.


Robert Fair: What products were affected?


Robert McCubbin: The products that were affected were dried skim milk, apples, honey, cheese and butter.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I should like to point out to the house that owing to the fact no support was given potatoes last fall in the provinces of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, thousands of bushels are now being dumped. At a late date this spring they did give us support through the starch factories, but those factories have not been able to take care of all the potatoes. Good potatoes are now past being ground into starch and they are being dumped daily. That is what is taking place with good foodstuff the price of which is so high in Canada. It is being dumped. I should like to ask the minister why no support was given to the potato crop or with respect to the surplus potatoes this last fall when it was asked for?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item
carry?


Some hon. Members:: No.


John Horne Blackmore: Let us have an answer to the question.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: We had better let this item stand over.


Robert McCubbin: Naturally this is a matter of government policy. They committed themselves to the extent of $300,000. That was the extent to which they committed themselves.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Would the parliamentary
assistant say that $300,000 compared with the $65 million given to western Canada? The

Supply-Agriculture
sum of $300,000 is enough for the maritimes, but you do not stop at any $300,000 when it is to go to the west. When potatoes were selling for 20 cents a bushel last fall, I want to know why these growers were not protected in Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Farmers under the Veterans Land Act were forced to sell their potatoes last fall at 20 cents a bushel. Those farmers had no relief whatever. Those who were able to hold their potatoes until spring had some relief as a result of the starch program. But the starch factories in the maritime provinces were not able to grind all those potatoes until they became too bad for starch purposes. Now those potatoes are being dumped. Thousands of bushels of good food are being dumped. This is something which should have been taken care of by the government or by the agricultural prices support board last fall.


John Horne Blackmore: I think that question is one that really ought to be answered by the Department of Agriculture. I realize that the parliamentary assistant is at a disadvantage in undertaking to deal with this matter; but it seems to me that sooner or later-and perhaps the sooner the better-we in Canada must decide what agricultural commodities are going to be supported under the Agricultural Prices Support Act, and when they are going to be supported; that is, at what prices it will become necessary to support them.
We must regularize this matter of the support of agricultural products from coast to coast in Canada. Just such a remark as that which the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton has made is thoroughly understandable and thoroughly justifiable as long as we have no regular policy announced and understood throughout the country. If the parliamentary assistant has the information, I wish he would tell us when the dominion government would be prepared to support potatoes. We fully realize that to the maritime provinces this is important. Once more we see some people making light of this matter. I do not know when the time is going to come when the members of the House of Commons are going to realize that the welfare of Ontario and Quebec depends on the welfare of the maritime provinces.


An hon. Member:: And Alberta too.


John Horne Blackmore: That is perfectly right. I thought that hon. members would know the rest of it. I could name the others. That is perfectly true. We should know what we can count on. As I say, I have a great deal of sympathy for the maritime provinces because they are specializing in potatoes for several reasons, one of them, I suppose, being

their climate and the other their soil. We certainly should have some over-all policy under which we shall say to the producers of potatoes in the maritime provinces that when the price of potatoes falls below a certain point we are going to support them with assistance; and it should be fairly well known what that point is, why that point is chosen, how much assistance will be given and why. Has the parliamentary assistant any information that he can give the committee as a basis upon which to work from here on?


Robert McCubbin: I will admit that that is an extremely difficult question to answer. Nevertheless supports are given to assist and to help any industry that is in difficulty. Potatoes are a difficult product to support because they are grown everywhere and anywhere. The United States tried price support for them, and had a formula for the purpose, but they had to stop after spending a few hundreds of millions of dollars. The only formula that we can go by is that we will endeavour to support any product under a marketing board or assist a marketing board of a province so as to help the board set up by each province in Canada. 1 know about the one in respect to our own province of Ontario. It is only assistance, to assist them in order that they might in their wisdom, through these boards, be able to try to meet their own difficulty if that is at all possible. But we should try to help and to assist them if it is possible to do so.


Heber Harold Hatfield: When the Minister of Agriculture put this act through the house in 1944 he made the statement that no agricultural product would be dumped during the time that he was Minister of Agriculture.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: But that was before an election.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Yes. It was before the election in 1945. The department of agriculture of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island met a delegation from this department; and a delegation from the marketing board and the board counsel of those two provinces made a great many trips up here last fall when potatoes were selling for 20 cents a bushel. That was the time to remove the surplus from the market. If something had been done at that time with regard to the starch program, we would not have to dump potatoes today. Last fall was the time to do something.


George Clyde Nowlan: As I understood the parliamentary assistant, he stated that support might be given or could be given when the product had been marketed under the provisions of a marketing act. We have that situation in Nova Scotia, with the marketing of

apples under the Nova Scotia marketing board and the marketing act. I would ask the parliamentary assistant if he is prepared to state what assistance the government or his department is prepared to give the Nova Scotia apple growers for the losses sustained during the preceding season.


Robert McCubbin: No decision has been made on the matter. This is, of course, a matter of government policy over which I have no control.


An hon. Member:: Eleven o'clock.


George Clyde Nowlan: It is still under consideration?


Robert McCubbin: That is right.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Mr. Chairman, are you going to continue on? You cannot get this item passed tonight, anyway. I move that this item stand over for further consideration. I want to draw to the attention of the chairman that any items passed after eleven o'clock without the full consent of the committee can be reopened by any member afterwards on a question of privilege. Proceedings cannot be carried on without consent.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I should like to point out to the hon. member that I have asked several times whether it was agreed to carry on after eleven o'clock. I understood that we had the unanimous consent of the committee. Otherwise I would have risen, reported progress and asked leave to sit again.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I oppose it.


Louis-René Beaudoin: If the hon. member wishes to withdraw his consent at this time, I have no alternative but to rise and report progress. Shall I do so? Shall I report progress and ask leave to sit again?


Some hon. Members:: No.


An hon. Member:: Keep going.


Louis-René Beaudoin: If I do not have unanimous consent, hon. members will understand that I cannot carry on.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: No consent.


Sarto Fournier: On division.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall I report
progress?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
Supply



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow if possible we will take up the remainder of the estimates. At eleven o'clock we will take up national revenue. At two o'clock we will take up the remaining item in external affairs and then fisheries will have priority over the others.


Robert Fair: What about agriculture?


Alphonse Fournier: I will handle these
tomorrow if I have not the parliamentary assistant. I have named three departments. After that I shall do my best to meet the wishes of all hon. members.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Do I understand that the
house will meet at two o'clock following the luncheon adjournment tomorrow?


Alphonse Fournier: This evening we did
have some discussion with the different parties, and it seemed agreed, and I hope I shall get unanimous consent to sit from eleven to one and take one hour for lunch, and sit from two to six and take an hour for dinner, and then from seven to eleven.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is fine.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: Is
that procedure agreed for tomorrow?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


[Stage Direction]
It being twenty-five minutes after eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
Defence forces-
245.	To provide for the defence forces of the navy, army and air services and defence research and development, and to authorize total commitments for this purpose of $3,831,270,000 including authority notwithstanding section 29 of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, to make commitments for the current year of $1,924,170,835 and commitments against future years of $1,907,099,165 against which commitments it is estimated that actual expenditures in 1951-52 will not exceed $1,595,050,000 of which $183,050,000 will be provided from section 3 of the Defence Appropriation Act, 1950, as supplemented by item 246, $1,412,000,000.
Special-
246.	To authorize and provide for additional expenditures under the provisions of section 3 of the Defence Appropriation Act, 1950, in the amount of $61,383,108 and commitments against future years in the amount of $29,720,000, $61,383,108.
General services-
247.	Grants to military associations, institutes and others, as detailed in the estimates, $215,925.
248.	War museum and erection of headstones in Canada, $61,492.
249.	Battlefields memorials, $55,617.
[Stage Direction]
Supply
Pensions and other benefits-
250.	Civil pensions, as detailed in the estimates, $2,977.
251.	To authorize in respect of members of the Royal Canadian Air Force on leave without pay and serving as instructors with civilian training organizations operating under the British commonwealth air training plan who were killed, payment to their dependents of amounts equal to the amounts such dependents would have received under the Pension let as amended had such service as instructors been military service in the armed forces of Canada, less the value of any benefits received by such dependents under insurance contracts which were effected on the lives of such members of the Royal Canadian Air Force by or at the expense of the civilian organizations, $2,358.
Militia Pension Act-
252.	Government's contribution to the permanent forces pension fund, $16,681,239.
Pensions and other benefits-
728.	To authorize the governor in council to increase the pension granted to SP 38171 Warrant Officer class I William Edward Tyrell under the Militia Pension Act effective January 25, 1950, by including for purposes of calculation of his pension the amount of dependents allowance which would have been paid to his wife had she not been a member of the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service during the period July 28, 1945 to October 20, 1945, $1.
729.	To authorize payment to Stuart Davis Houston under the Pension Act and the Veterans Affairs Act of such benefits as would be awarded under the said acts if the disabling condition had been incurred by him during service in world war 2, $1,128.
Militia Pension Act-
730.	Government's contribution to the permanent forces pension fund-further amount required, $14,030,538.

[Stage Direction]
343.	Quebec, $7,968,000.
344.	Ottawa, $5,783,000.
345.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $4,625,000.
346.	Manitoba, $430,000.
347.	Saskatchewan, $1,168,000.
348.	Alberta, $1,073,000.
349.	British Columbia, $3,294,000.
350.	Yukon and Northwest Territories, $200,000.
351.	Unforeseen improvements, $2,200,000. Engineering branch-
352.	Branch administration, $399,104.
Engineering services-
353.	Salaries, surveys, inspections, test borings, etc., $1,588,512.
354.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $178,500.
Dredging-
355.	Maintenance and operation of plant and contract and day labour works, in the amounts by divisions as detailed in the estimates, $3,625,379.
356.	New plant, in the amounts by divisions as detailed in the estimates, $749,100.
Graving docks-
357.	Maintenance and operation, in the amounts by docks as detailed in the estimates, $324,271.
358. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, in the amounts by docks as detailed in the estimates, $44,000.
Locks and dams-*
359.	Maintenance and operation, $158,054.
360. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $14,845.
Snagboats-
361.	Maintenance and operation, $111,976.
Roads and bridges-*
362.	Maintenance and operation in the amounts by roads and bridges as detailed in the estimates, $278,118.
363.	Towards international bridge over the St. Croix river between St. Stephen, N.B., and Calais, Me., the state of Maine to pay a like amount (revote), $10,000.
364.	Towards interprovincial bridge over the Ottawa river between Pembroke, Ontario, and Allu-mette Island, Quebec, the provinces of Ontario and Quebec each to pay one-third of the cost and maintenance thereof, $50,000.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects-
365.	Newfoundland, $1,744,200.
366.	Nova Scotia, $2,757,000.
367.	Prince Edward Island, $1,588,500.
368.	New Brunswick, $2,531,500.
369.	Quebec, $5,815,900.
370.	Ontario, $4,948,000.
371.	Manitoba, $234,000.
372.	Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $114,000.
373.	British Columbia and Yukon, $4,784,500. Harbours and rivers generally-
374.	Repairs and upkeep for the maintenance of services, including reconstruction and replacements, and to authorize commitments against future years in the total amount of $560,000, as detailed in the estimates, no new works to be undertaken, $2,960,000.
375.	Grand river-contribution towards improvements (revote $78,000), $93,750.
376.	Fraser river-fifty per cent of the cost of investigations to be carried out by the "Dominion Provincial Board Fraser River Basin," $150,000.
377.	Protection works generally-to provide for remedial works where damages are caused by, or endanger, navigation or federal government structures, $200,000.
General-
378.	National Gallery of Canada, $285,977.
379.	Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $7,000 to be expended upon any one work, $300,000.
380.	National capital planning service, $66,344.
381.	To supplement, on approval of treasury board except where less than $1,000 is required, any of the appropriations of the Department of Public Works, $400,000.
382.	To provide for balances required to complete any projects undertaken in previous fiscal years and for which no specific provision is made in the fiscal year 1951-52, $250,000.

Architectural branch-
744.	Ottawa-Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc.-further amount required, $431,794.
745.	Maintenance and operation of public buildings and grounds, other than at Ottawa, including repairs and upkeep, rents, furnishings, heating, etc.- further amount required, $180,007.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of public buildings-
Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for, public buildings listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects-further amount required-
746.	Newfoundland, $142,000.
747.	Nova Scotia, $140,000.
748.	Prince Edward Island, $12,000.
749.	New Brunswick, $21,000.
750.	Quebec, $238,000.
751.	Ottawa, $30,000.
752.	Ontario (other than Ottawa), $267,000.
753.	Manitoba, $300,000.
754.	Alberta, $100,000.
755.	British Columbia, $1.
Engineering branch-
Dredging-
756.	Maintenance and operation of plant and contract and day labour works, in the amounts by divisions as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $125,700.
757.	New plant, in the amounts by divisions as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $16,000.
Locks and dams-
758.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $15,000.
Acquisition, construction and improvements of harbour and river works
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Construction, acquisition, major repairs and improvements of, and plans and sites for harbour and river works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended upon individual listed projects -further amounts required-
759.	Newfoundland, $137,600.
760.	Nova Scotia, $600,000.
761.	Prince Edward Island, $263,000.
762.	New Brunswick, $186,000.
763.	Quebec, $809,000.
764.	Ontario, $990,000.
765.	Manitoba, $10,000.
766.	Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $125,000.	_
767.	British Columbia and Yukon, $1,400,000. Harbours and rivers generally-
768.	Repairs and upkeep for the maintenance of services, including reconstruction and replacements as detailed in the estimates, no new works to be undertaken-further amount required, $85,000.
Generally-
769.	Protection works generally-To provide for remedial works where damages are caused by, or
Supply
endanger, navigation or federal government structures-further amount required, $200,000.
General-
770.	National Gallery of Canada-further amount required, $10,000.
771.	Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $7,000 to be expended upon any one work-further amount required, $50,000.
772.	Portrait of the late Sir Charles Fitzpatrick (revote $1,500), $1,700.

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National film board-
253.	Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, $2,474,366.
396.	Lake of the Woods control board, $13,565.
397.	To provide for the expenses incurred under the agreement between Canada, Ontario, and Manitoba, confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928, moneys expended to be largely reimbursed, $17,750.
398.	Engineering and architectural division-administration, operation and maintenance, $368,020.
Projects division-
399.	Administration, $40,433.
400.	To provide for a contribution by Canada to the improvement and reconstruction of the road between Patricia bay airport, Vancouver island, and the city limits of Victoria, B.C., in accordance with the terms of the agreement between Canada and the province of British Columbia, $200,000.
401.	To provide for a contribution to the cost of constructing a dam on the upper Thames river near Fanshawe, Ontario, for the purposes of flood control and conservation, in accordance with the terms of an agreement to be entered into between Canada, the province of Ontario and the upper Thames river conservation authority, $580,000.
402.	To provide, subject to allocation by treasury board, for the design and planning of deferrable projects, the acquisition of sites and the initiation of construction, $1,000,000.
Trans-Canada highway division-
403.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $353,269.
404.	To provide for surveys of the trans-Canada highway through national parks, $12,000.
405.	To provide for general investigations by the Northwest Territories power commission of the electric power requirements of settlements and industries in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon territory (revote), $1,000.
406.	To recoup the Minister of Finance for advances to be made to the Northwest Territories power commission during the fiscal year 1950-51 for power developments as provided under section 17 (2) of the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act, chapter 64, statutes of 1948, $110,000.
Northern administration and lands branch-
407.	Branch administration, $16,194.
408.	Lands division-administration of territorial and public lands; seed grain collections, $278,883.
Northern administration division-
409.	Administration, $266,724.
Northwest territories, including Wood Buffalo park and Eskimo affairs-
410.	Operation and maintenance, $976,366.
411.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $237,215.
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Supply
Forest conservation and wildlife management, including Wood Buffalo park-
412.	Operation and maintenance, $276,633.
413. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $64,804.
Yukon territory, including forest conservation-
414.	Operation and maintenance, $475,717.
415. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $190,450.
Forestry branch-
416.	Branch administration, $81,971.
Forest research division-
417.	Operation and maintenance, $842,803.
418. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $53,176.
419.	Forestry operations division, including forest insects control board, $63,858.
Forest products division-
420.	Operation and maintenance, $500,034.
421. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment, $35,945.
422.	Grant to Canadian Forestry Association,
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423.	Grant to Pulp and Paper Research Institute of Canada, $100,000.
Eastern Rockies forest conservation board'-
424.	Salaries and expenses of federal' members of the board, $16,680.
425.	Federal contribution towards annual maintenance, including staff and expenses, $175,000.
Canadian government travel bureau-
426.	To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,503,197.
567. To provide for advances to the Northwest Territories power commission for the construction on the Mayo river, Yukon Territory, of a storage and hydro-electric development, to serve the Mayo mining district, $1,200,000.
Trans-Canada highway division-
776.	Notwithstanding the Trans-Canada Highway Act, to authorize and provide for a payment to the provinces of British Columbia and New Brunswick, which have entered into an agreement with Canada for construction of a part of the trans-Canada highway in respect of construction of the highway carried out between December 10, 1949 and the day on which these provinces respectively signed the agreement with Canada, in accordance with the regulations of the governor in council; the amount paid to each province, however, not to exceed fifty per centum of the cost to the province of the said construction as determined by the governor in council; the maximum amount authorized to be expended by section 7 of the Trans-Canada Highway Act to be decreased to the extent of any amount paid pursuant to this vote, $210,000.
Northern administration and lands branch- Northern administration division-
777.	Administration-further amount required, $7,350.
Northwest Territories including Wood Buffalo park and Eskimo Affairs-
778.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $22,900.
779.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $16,740.
Yukon Territory, including forest conservation-
780.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $95,300.
781.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $35,000.
Forestry branch-
Forestry operations division, including forest insects control board-
782.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $25,000.
783.	To provide for contributions to the provinces for assistance in forest inventory and reforestation in accordance with agreements to be entered into by Canada and the provinces, $1,025,000.
National parks branch-
National parks and historic sites services-
773. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $219,000.
Engineering and water resources branch-
Water resources division-
Water resources division, including the administration of the Dominion Water Power and Irrigation Acts-
774. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $10,000.
Projects division-
775.	To provide for a contribution to the cost of constructing a mining road between Black Bay and Ace Lake in Saskatchewan in accordance with the terms of an agreement to be entered into between Canada and the province of Saskatchewan, $50,000.
Loans, investments and advances-
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
824. To provide for the restoration of the special account in the consolidated revenue fund established by section 35 of the National Housing Act by the amount paid out of the special account in respect of housing projects undertaken jointly with the governments of the provinces during the fiscal year 1950-51, $1,500,000.
National film board-
254.	Construction or acquisition of new equipment, $128,300.

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56.	Departmental administration, $208,564. Citizenship-
57.	Citizenship registration branch, $202,811.
58.	Citizenship branch, $274,388.
Immigration branch-
59.	Administration of the Immigration Act, $799,197.
60.	Field and inspectional service, Canada- operation and maintenance, $4,351,609.
61.	Field and inspectional service, abroad-operation and maintenance, $958,988.
62.	To provide for payments to Trans-Canada Air Lines of the difference in cost between air transportation and minimum tourist class ocean transportation for immigrants transported from the United Kingdom by Trans-Canada Air Lines during the months of April and May, 1951, $231,125.
Indian Affairs branch-
63.	Branch administration, $297,619.

iidian agencies-
64.	Operation and maintenance, $1,959,846.
65.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, vorks, land and new equipment, $559,034.
ieserves and trusts-
66.	Operation and maintenance, $110,513.
67.	Acquisition of land, $16,000.
Welfare of Indians-
68.	Operation and maintenance, $3,323,954.
69.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, and and new equipment, $911,570.
70.	Grants to agricultural exhibitions and Indian airs, $7,350.
education-day and residential schools-
71.	Operation and maintenance, $4,917,224.
72.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, and and new equipment, $2,737,075.
73.	Grant to provide additional services to Indians if British Columbia, $100,000.
74.	Fur conservation-operation and maintenance, 313,063.
litizenship-
672.	Citizenship branch-further amount required, 24,484.
mmigration branch-
673.	Administration of the Immigration Act- urther amount required, $50,000.
674.	Field and inspectional service abroad-opera-ion. and maintenance-further amount required, 366,168.
675.	To provide an amount, additional to the sum irovided by item 62 of the main estimates, 1951-52, equired to extend to December 31, 1951, the period uring which payments may be made to Trans-ianada Air Lines of the difference in cost between ir transportation and minimum tourist class ocean ransportation for immigrants transported from he United Kingdom by Trans-Canada Air Lines uring such extended period-further amount retired, $955,312.
ndian Affairs branch- ndian agencies-
676.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, mrks, land and new equipment-further amount equired, $105,400.
Iducation-day and residential schools-
677.	Operation and maintenance-further amount equired, $485,405.
678. Construction or acquisition of buildings, rorks, land and new equipment-further amount equired, $265,223.
iffice of the chief electoral officer-
55. Salaries and expenses of the office, $43,004.

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cience service administration-
651.	Construction or acquisition of buildings, forks, land and new equipment-further amount equired, $536,000.
Supply
Animal and poultry pathology-
652.	Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $8,500.
653.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $83,600.
Botany and plant pathology-
654.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $14,300.
Forest entomology-
655.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $85,000.
Experimental farms service-
Central experimental farm-
656.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $36,300.
Branch farms and stations and illustration stations-
657.	Construction	or	acquisition	of	buildings,
works, land and new equipment-further amount required, $267,210.
Production service

Health of animals-
658.	Administration of Animal Contagious Diseases Act, and Meat and Canned Foods Act-further amount required, $53,894.
659.	To provide for payment of compensation to owners of animals affected with diseases coming under the operation of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, which have died or have been slaughtered under circumstances unprovided for under the above act and regulations thereunder, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $5,001.
660.	Grants to agricultural organizations, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $7,000.
Marketing service
[Stage Direction]
661.	Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, and grants, in the amounts detailed in the estimates-further amount required $88,355.
Terminable services-
662.	Freight assistance on western feed grains- further amount required, $10,500,000.
Special-
663.	Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and Water Storage-further amount required, $65,000.
664.	Land protection, reclamation and development in British Columbia under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council-further amount required, $132,600
665.	Land protection and reclamation; clearing and settlement of new lands under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council-further amount required, $100,000.
666.	Maritime Marshland Rehabilitation Act-further amount required, $408,800.
667.	Assiniboine river-surveys, diking and cut-off $75,000.
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Friday, June 29, 1951