1950-06-01

PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 253, for the relief of Margaret Mary Hamel Whittaker.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 254, for the relief of Lewis Benjamin Wyman.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 255, for the relief of Edna Dora Tucker Conley.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 256, for the relief of Dorothy Marguerite Lester McBride.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 257, for the relief of Josephine Rood Trottier.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 258, for the relief of Margaret Irene Sinden Brown.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 259, for the relief of Camille Poulin.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 260, for the relief of Elisa Macdonald Mitchell Brock.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 261, for the relief of Theodore Levasseur.-Mr. Winkler.
Bill No. 262, for the relief of Mary Marguerite Harvie Fine.-Mr. Winkler.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	What regulations prevent compensation being given to employees of the Winnipeg post office who were not given civic holiday as a holiday with pay in August, 1949?
2.	When were such regulations passed, and by whom were they made?
3.	What period did such regulations cover, and are they still in effect?


Mr. Lapointe:: 1.	The Civil Service Act (section 45) provides that any day appointed by proclamation by the governor in council may be observed as a holiday.
2.	In 1949 the proclamation provided that the holiday applied to Ottawa.
3.	Advice has been received from the civil service commission that in the calendar year 1950 any day proclaimed by the governor in council, designated as civic holiday in a particular locality, will be observed as a holiday by postal employees and other civil servants in that locality.



NOVA SCOTIA


Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelburne):: 1.	What was the total revenue collected by the
federal government from persons resident in the province of Nova Scotia in the fiscal year 1949-50, as direct and indirect taxes?	.
2.	What was the total expenditures of the federal government in the province of Nova Scotia in the fiscal year 1949-50, including direct payments to the provincial government and to individual residents as well as assistance to agriculture and industry?


Mr. Sinclair:: 1.	$31,178,000 (estimated). Customs duties and excise taxes on imports are not included as such figures are only available by ports of entry which is no indication of the point of consumption.. If customs duties are apportioned on the basis of population Nova Scotia's share would be approximately $11 million.
2.	$118,482,000 (estimated). These figures do not include:
(a)	The more general types of budgetary expenditures which are made for the benefit of the country as a whole and which are of direct benefit to all provinces. In this category are the expenses of the central legislative body and of the financial and administrative departments at Ottawa, research activities of the national research council and other bodies and commercial activities of certain government companies.
(b)	Payments to the majority of suppliers of goods, as the payments are in many cases made to the head office of the company and therefore do not lend themselves to an accurate segregation by provinces.
(c)	Purchases by government agencies on behalf of the United Kingdom and foreign governments. These purchases are financed partly through loans from the federal government.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Ross (Hamilton. East):: 1.	How many Canadians purchased livestock in the United States in the year 1949?
2.	What was the amount of money expended in; these purchases?
3.	How was it divided as to (a) cattle; (b) horses; (c) sheep; (d) swine?

Inquiries of the Ministry



CIVILIAN DEFENCE PERSONNEL


Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	What was the total amount of the travelling expenses and allowances of all officers and employees in connection with civilian defence during each of the fiscal years 1948-49 and 1949-50?
2.	What was the largest individual amount expended in each of said years?



PUBLIC WORKS IN NEWFOUNDLAND

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: 1.	What was the cost of public works in each of the ridings in Newfoundland during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1949?
2.	What amounts were spent for (a) wharves; (b) breakwaters; (c) dredging?



PUBLIC SERVICE


Mr. Diefenbaker:: How many civil servants or officials in the fiscal year 1949-50 received in addition to salaries and travelling expenses living allowances in excess of $5,000?



INDIAN ACT


Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend, consolidate and clarify the Indian Act, and to provide, inter alia, for band funds and expenditures therefrom, and for other appropriations in case of deficiency or lack of band funds.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: May I direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare? Can the minister say whether the report in today's press is correct that the federal authorities have called upon those responsible for old age pension administration in Ontario to tighten up their regulations, with the result that the pension of some 7,000 people in Ontario is being reduced?


Hon. Paul Marlin (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: I have not seen the report to which my hon. friend directs my

attention. All I can say is that there have been no changes in the regulations for over some two or three years.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. Hansell (Macleod):: May I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture? Can the minister facilitate the bringing down of a return which was passed in my name on May 3 respecting a small prairie farm rehabilitation project near Pincher Creek?


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: I will facilitate the bringing down of the return.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. William Bryce (Selkirk):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Resources and Development. In answer to a question yesterday the minister said, as reported at page 3030 of Hansard:
All such houses owned and operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation will be restored to good condition at the earliest possible day.
Will he tell the house at whose expense?


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Resources and Development):: I received
notice of this question just as I came into the house. I think I can inform the house that houses owned and operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation wil be restored to good condition at the expense of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.


William Scottie Bryce: It will not be charged up to the tenants or owners?


Robert Henry Winters: The expenses will be borne by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation.



EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver-Ouadra):: I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. When may we have a statement from him concerning the commonwealth conference which took place recently at Sydney, Australia?


Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: The Canadian representative at that conference, my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Mayhew), is on his way back to Ottawa. I think he will get here on Monday. It may be possible to make a short statement on the conference that afternoon after I have seen the Minister of Fisheries. I hope to be in a position to make a statement myself on that day on the results of the recent conference in London, and I may be able to associate with that statement a short one dealing with the Sydney conference.


CIVIL SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Stanley Howard Knowles: This is a question which perhaps should go to the Secretary of State. If someone is not acting for him in his absence, perhaps the Prime Minister can answer it. Will a statement be made soon as to the five-day week for civil servants in June, July and August?


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: A statement will be made just as soon as a decision is reached.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It has not been reached yet?


IRRIGATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Garfield Gardiner: Some days ago I was asked by the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Black-more) whether the contract for the St. Mary dam had been signed. I just want to say that it was signed some days ago.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.


DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND DEVELOPMENT
[Stage Direction]
358. Departmental administration, $370,640.
Mr. Fraser:: Does the minister wish to take these items up separately, or would he like general discussion on the first item?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I would of course like to expedite these items through the committee. I am in the hands of the committee as to where they would
Supply-Resources and Development prefer to discuss the different items. I have no objection to the practice of a general discussion on the administration item.
While I do not propose to make a lengthy statement, I should like to say that although the estimates of the Department of Resources and Development for 1950-51 show an increase of $19,081,710 over the previous year, a review of these estimates shows that they include a few new items authorized by statute or made necessary as a result of statutory obligations: for example, Trans-Canada Highway Act, $20 million; administration of Trans-Canada Highway Act (increase), $286,695; trans-Canada highway through Banff and Yoho national parks, $25,000; to recoup Minister of Finance for advances made to Northwest Territories Power Commission, $30,000. Deducting these items, there is an actual decrease of $1,259,985 in the normal estimates of the department.
It has been necessary to ask for an increase in several of the votes, while in others we expect to be able to get along with a lesser amount than that provided in the previous year. With the reorganization of the departments of mines and resources and reconstruction and supply into three new departments near the end of a fiscal year, it has been difficult so to divide the votes for 1949-50 that an accurate comparison of appropriations may be had. Consequently some of the increases are more theoretical than actual. However, I shall be glad to explain the reasons for these increases and decreases as each vote is under consideration.
As we come to the votes for Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the national film board I shall make separate statements.


Mr. Adamson:: Does the minister wish to discuss the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation now, or leave it until the particular item is called?


Robert Henry Winters: I think it would be preferable to leave it until we come to the item.


William Scottie Bryce: I want to take up the question I asked the minister a few minutes ago on the orders of the day. The minister said that the houses in the flooded area in St. Boniface, Manitoba, owned and operated by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation would be put in shape by that corporation. I do not know whether the minister is listening to me or not.


Robert Henry Winters: I am trying to listen, but I told the chairman that I could not hear the hon. member.


William Scottie Bryce: I want to get this clear in my own mind. Central Mortgage and Housing

Supply-Resources and'Development Corporation, the minister says, are to pay for restoration of the houses that they own. What is the position of the house the ownership of which has been transferred to a purchaser? Will Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation take any responsibility for it?


Robert Henry Winters: If the ownership has been transferred to somebody else, then the arrangement would fall, I should think, on the same iplan that is worked out for the general restoration of houses in Winnipeg.


William Scottie Bryce: These men would pay for them?


Robert Henry Winters: Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation would of course be in a position to pay only for repairs on the houses they own.


William Scottie Bryce: I am quite clear on that now. Those that have not been sold will be looked after by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation; those on which somebody has made a down payment, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation will not be responsible for.
In line with this policy, projects undertaken by all government departments since September 1. 1949, had lull regard to the employment situation.
I suggest there is a clear inference in this last sentence, namely that there were projects undertaken by government departments since September 1, 1949, and that those projects had full regard to the employment situation.
All right. Assuming from that answer that there were such projects, I draw the minister's attention to the following four questions I asked in relation thereto:
4.	What number of persons have been employed thereon?
5.	How much money has been spent thereon?
6.	To whom have contracts for such works been awarded?
7.	In what areas have such works been undertaken?
Surely those are specific questions calling for precise answers. But the answer of the Department of Resources and Development is as follows:	[DOT]
4,	5, 6 and 7. Answered by No. 3.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I want to say a couple of words on the national film board. Personally I feel that parliament is not yet in a position to know exactly what is happening there.


Robert Henry Winters: I wonder whether the hon. member heard me. I said that when we come to the national film board I will make a statement. I would prefer a disoussion at that stage, if it is satisfactory to hon. members.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am in the same position as the minister was; he could not hear, and I could not hear.


Stanley Howard Knowles: 
Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I am familiar with the sessional paper and the contents of it. The government investment program is not of course the responsibility of any one department. On the contrary it is a matter involving expenditures by all government departments. If the hon. member will refer to the estimates, as he has done on more than one occasion, he will see a great many votes for a great many projects in, for example, the Department of Public Works, the Department of Transport, the Department of Resources and Development, and other departments. Those projects are undertaken from time to time, and in each case before a project is begun full regard is had to the employment situation obtaining in the area concerned. That is what was intended by the explanation given in the sessional paper.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I submit that anyone looking at those answers will agree with me that there is simply no answer there at all. The answer to No. 3, which merely sets out general policy, is not an answer to my specific questions as to the number of persons employed, the amount of money spent, the persons to whom contracts were awarded, or the areas in which such works were undertaken. If the minister did not wish to answer those questions, he should have said so. But to say that those questions are covered by the answer to No. 3 is, to say the least, annoying.


John George Diefenbaker: There are two matters I should like to bring to the attention of the minister now instead of waiting for their being called in regular order, because I have to attend the committee on agriculture.
My first question is in connection with national parks and historic sites services, and the national battlefields commission. As the committee knows, in the rebellion of 1885, the outcome of which was the preservation for Canada of what is now known as Saskatchewan, and in which numbers of volunteers from eastern Canada lost their lives, the battles in northern Saskatchewan were fought in the main at Batoche and Fish Creek, adjacent to Prince Albert; and then in the area around North Battleford at Fort Pitt and Cut Knife. These particular areas today are remembered by many as the scene of the last warfare that took place in Canada for the preservation and perpetuation of this union.
I would point out particularly, to begin with, the situation at Batoche, which is located some miles east of Duck Lake. That is where one of the battles of the rebellion was fought, and it was the first place where trenches were used in warfare. Today all that remains to indicate that one of the most important battles of the rebellion was fought there are the trenches, which at this time are only six or seven inches deep, having been filled in by the erosion which has taken place over a period of sixty-five years. There and at Fish Creek a number of volunteers lie buried, as well as numbers of metis and Indians who fought in- those two battles. There is nothing to indicate that these are two of the great historic sites in Saskatchewan- nothing other than a small monument erected on the banks of the Saskatchewan river at Batoche through private contributions. There is nothing to indicate that Batoche and Fish Creek are indeed two shrines that should be preserved as such.
Having visited over the years a number of our memorial gardens, as I choose to call them, I submit that these two places, and the
1, 1950	3051
Supply-Resources and Development other to which I have made reference, should receive attention by the department even at this time. As I have pointed out, Batoche represented the first occasion on which trenches were used in warfare. One can still walk over that area and relive the romance of the days of the fur trader, of the metis, of Gabriel Dumont, the greatest metis leader of his time and the greatest buffalo hunter of North America, not excepting Buffalo Bill. By taking action in this matter the minister would be doing something worth-while for the maintenance of Canadian tradition and the cementing of the unity that today prevails among the whites, the metis and the Indians in that area, many of whom are descendants of those who participated on either side of that rebellion.
My first request is that these two areas be set aside as historic sites. The area does not amount to more than fifteen or twenty acres in each case, and these lands should be purchased by the Canadian government. In the years to come Canadians will look at these sites as being places worthy of preservation, because they represent battlefields, though they are small in comparison with modern battlefields, which are significant in that what occurred there contributed so much to the building of western Canada.
The second suggestion I bring to the attention of the minister has to do with Watrous lake, which lies partly in my constituency. Were this a matter that concerned only my own constituency I would not refer to it now. Since 1750, according to legend and history, Watrous lake has been regarded, first by the Indians and latterly by the settlers who came into the west, as a lake containing medicinal properties of great value. The lake is drying up, and in a matter of a few years will have disappeared unless something is done nationally to preserve it. The history of western Canada indicates that as early as 1750 Indians from as far east as Fort 'William and as far south as southern Nebraska made pilgrimages there to take advantage of the medicinal properties of this lake. Within the last twenty-five or thirty years many people suffering from arthritis, rheumatism and similar ills have found relief by bathing in the waters of this lake. It is several miles in length, and apparently the outlets of the springs are being closed off through the operation of the salts in the water. An expenditure on this lake by the national government would pay dividends that could not be estimated at this time. I know I speak for hon. members from all parts of Saskatchewan, and not just as one in whose constituency this lake is partly situated, when I say that anything done in this connection would be appreciated.
3052	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development
I ask the minister to consider making available members of the engineering staff or officials who would be able to give expert advice to the people of Watrous so that measures may be taken for the preservation of this lake. It might well be called an historical monument, because over the years this lake has been and still is regarded by the Indians, as the Ganges is in India, as a place where the spirit can be renewed by bathing ip the waters.
If we are to build up a true Canadianism; if we are to have unity with no division because of race, colour or creed, nothing will contribute as much as the preservation of sites and areas which are so much a part of our history and tradition. Both Batoche and Fish Creek are shrines to the people of Saskatchewan, and they should be preserved for the future. If something is not done within the next six months or a year-I visited these battlefields within the last few weeks-they will be lost completely to posterity.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: May I say a word in support of the idea of preserving these historic sites in Saskatchewan? In setting aside these sites as shrines may I suggest that a small niche be provided in which could be placed a bust or statue of Louis Riel, once a member of this parliament, to remind the people that a great leader died the death of a martyr while fighting for his own people. A few days ago we memorialized the anniversary of Jan Smuts, who at one time fought against the crown. Some days ago this parliament paid a tribute to Jan Smuts, who at one time was a rebel but who lived to play a great part in the cause of democracy throughout the world.
Students of Canadian history who have followed the story of the northwest rebellion must realize that the central figure in that rebellion-he may have acted unwisely or rashly-was a true leader of his people. Louis Riel who led a lost cause, though he died upon the scaffold, is today regarded as a patriot and martyr by a considerable section of the Canadian people.


Mr. Blair:: Mr. Chairman, I have a matter which might more properly be brought up under item 366 or item 370, but like the hon. member for Lake Centre I expect to be attending a committee meeting. I refer to the astrolabe of Champlain, who was one of the greatest early explorers of this country. Any hon. member who visits Nepean Point will find there a statue of this great early Canadian explorer, looking up the Ottawa river toward the scene of some of his early explorations, and holding in his hands a scientific instrument for the taking of latitude and longitude. He had used it when he was searching for the northwest passage.


In his memoirs Champlain tells of how he lost this instrument. Some years ago a farmer near Cobden found it when ploughing, but unfortunately it found its way to a collection in New York. This instrument should be in our national museum. Not only is it an instrument used by one of the greatest explorers; it is a tangible reminder of the great things he did for this country. I feel that it belongs to Canada, and I suggest that an effort be made to have it brought back and placed in our national museum.
At the same time I should like to pay tribute to the work of Harry J. Walker, of this city, who has written so much about this district and about early exploration in Canada. The other night Mr. Walker brought this matter up at a meeting in the county of Renfrew. He suggested that the department should make some effort to bring the astrolabe back to Canada and place it in our national museum. It belongs here. It is one of the most valuable scientific souvenirs of those times that is in existence. It is something that is closely linked with the history of this country. It is a part of Canada.


Mr. Harrison:: I should like to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Lake Centre as to setting aside the historic sites of Fish Creek and Batoche. I think there should be added to them for the benefit of posterity the historic site of Rat Foot hill. At this point the last battle ever fought on Canadian soil took place between Major Steele and Chief Big Bear. Close to this site is the location of the Frog Lake massacre. A short distance away from that is old Fort Pitt, which I visited last year, and where a private party has erected a monument. In farming operations they had plowed up the old Fort Pitt graveyard. The number of people who turned out for the ceremony lend point to the arguments raised by the hon. member for Lake Centre that there are a great many people interested in such things. They should be preserved for our children and our children's children through all generations, to bring to their attention our early history. I have no doubt that as time passes, these sites will become important places of interest. I strongly support the argument of the hon. member for Lake Centre, and I should also like to add the historic site of Rat Foot hill, where, as I have said, the last battle fought on Canadian soil took place.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Lake Centre always seems to have an interesting story to tell the house, and the one he told touching on Buffalo Bill and other similar characters was no exception. He has made a good contribution, as he

usually does. The matter of historic sites in the general area to which the hon. member for Lake Centre refers was brought to my attention some time ago by the hon. member for Prince Albert, who had in mind particularly the old R.C.M.P. barracks at North Battleford. We have referred that project to the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada, which happens to be meeting in Ottawa this week.
I can assure the hon. member for Lake Centre that I shall be very happy to ask the board to take into full consideration the remarks he has made this morning. I am sure they will find them interesting and helpful. Watrous lake is in an area that has been developed somewhat commercially. I understand the property is owned by the province. To my knowledge we have received no request from the province to develop the area, but should one be received we shall of course be pleased to give it full consideration.
As to the remarks of the hon. member for Lanark about Champlain's astrolabe, which I understand is a sextant type of instrument for determining longitude and latitude, as he said, it is now lodged in a museum in New York. We will see what can be done about having it returned to Canada. There are many instances in which valuable historic instruments have been given to Canadian museums and now form a part of the historic background of the country. I also wish to thank the hon. member for Meadow Lake and the hon. member for Cariboo for the remarks they have made, which have contributed to this phase of the discussion of the estimates.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, since the minister was kind enough to refer to my reference to Gabriel Dumont, may I say that what I said was indeed the fact. He was the greatest buffalo hunter that any part of North America ever produced, although his activities do not occupy such a prominent place in history as those of Buffalo Bill, by reason of the fact that the latter toured the world.
I should like to mention in connection with Batoche that there is another reason why the battlefield should be set aside as a national monument. At Batoche on May 9, 1885, there took place the only naval engagement that has been fought inland in North America since the war of 1812. In that area there are many metis descendants of those who participated in the rebellion under Louis Riel. They are good Canadian citizens. I know of nothing that would be more appreciated by them, as well as by the descendants of the whites who participated on the other side in
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Supply-Resources and Development the rebellion, than to set aside the battlefield at Batoche as a permanent memorial and as evidence of the unity of the descendants of those who were engaged on opposing sides in the rebellion.


Mr. Drew:: While we are discussing these historic matters there is one subject I should like to refer to which comes under the general heading associated with museums and is not actually covered by any item.
In view of the fact that this department is charged with the responsibility of supporting the national museum of Canada and national historic sites, I suggest that there is a most important historical collection which should be placed in a museum, not only in the interests of the locality where the collection now is, but also in the interests of the whole of Canada. Strangely enough, little is known throughout Canada generally of the remarkable collection of experimental telephone models, carried right through to the final stage of development by Alexander Graham Bell, which are now collected at Baddeck, Nova Scotia, in a building near his old home. When we speak of history it is not necessary that something be seventy-five or a hundred years old to make it an important part of the history of Canada. The achievements of Alexander Graham Bell in Canada constitute a great record of individual initiative which can be a source of inspiration and encouragement to Canadians young and old. In the building near his old home is a collection which I should think is quite as interesting as the collection of experimental models and actual finished developments of Thomas Edison, which are housed at Dearborn in buildings provided by the late Henry Ford. That in the United States the corresponding collection of a man who was engaged at the same time in many similar fields has been taken care of privately in no way alters the fact that we should all be interested in the preservation and the appropriate recording of the essential details connected with the great achievements of Alexander Graham Bell.
At Baddeck are the experimental models of the instrument which evolved into the telephone so widely used today. It is interesting to note that there were two men on the continent of North America carrying on experiments in similar fields. It was really a race whether Alexander Graham Bell or Thomas Edison would invent the telephone. Edison was experimenting with a telephone, but Bell perfected and patented the invention first, and the models and drawings are all there. Edison invented the phonograph. Bell was working on a phonograph, and was
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Supply-Resources and Development within perhaps a few weeks of obtaining a patent on it. His experimental models of the phonograph are also at Baddeck.
Bell was also one of the pioneers in the field of transportation by air, and began his experiments at the same time as the Wright brothers in Dayton, Ohio. He began extremely interesting experiments with tetrahedral kites, which he thought could be powered and developed into a more effective method of air transportation than the monoplane or biplane; and his tetrahedral kites, up to the model that actually lifted a man, are still in this building at Baddeck, along with his plans for the development of that kite into a machine that would carry human beings. Then he switched from that to the biplane, and it is a matter of historic record that the first aeroplane flown anywhere in the British empire was flown at Baddeck many years ago by the present lieutenant governor of Nova Scotia, John McCurdy. There is a monument commemorating that first flight, which occurred only a few years after the Wright brothers had flown their machine at Dayton. There are also models of propellers. There were no wind tunnels in those days, and Bell had to construct propellers with different angles to find which would produce the greatest drawing power as it revolved in the air.
Furthermore, there are interesting models of an invention he developed during the first world war, which was intended to be used against submarines. It might have had very important results if the war had continued longer. That invention was called the paravane, a name which was later given to an actual device attached to ships for use in connection with submarines. It was a long, narrow boat with lifting planes on the side which would carry the body of the craft out of water so that it could be carried along the surface by an air propeller. There are other unique inventions there. They have been recorded; information about them is available, but to nothing like the extent it should be, having regard to their immense scientific value, and above all to the challenge they constitute to young Canadians.
I mention this matter at this time because it is the first opportunity I have had to do so; the minister will recall that we had not reached this point in our discussions when the session terminated last spring. One of the things about which I am greatly concerned is the danger that this whole collection might be lost. While it is cared for at the present time, unless something has been done very recently it is not housed in a fireproof building. The whole collection, comparable to


Edison's collection at Dearborn, could be lost not only to Canada but to the world; and this is a world collection.
I would strongly urge the minister to consider whether this is not a subject that might well be discussed with the historical group now meeting here, so that steps may be taken, by whatever plan may seem practical, to provide a museum at Baddeck which will be fireproof-it should be equipped with a sprinkler system-to assure to future generations of Canadians an opportunity of examining these exhibits which show what a man of vision and initiative can do simply by his own efforts.
We now have available the opportunity to give all the schools in Canada a record of these things by means of coloured photographs, which can be prepared very simply. I first became interested in this subject when I was minister of education in Ontario, and greatly wished that it were possible to present in effective sequence and full visual form some of these developments which are the heritage of all Canadians.
For the reasons I have put forward-first, that of preservation; second, that of making these things available to all Canadians, and third, to add to the attractions of what is already one of the loveliest spots in the whole of Canada, and which I am sure in the years ahead will become an increasingly important place for tourists to visit-I would urge that, not in the distant future but as soon as possible, steps be taken to house this great collection in a fireproof building and to make it available for inspection under the most favourable conditions.


Robert Henry Winters: I want to thank the leader of the opposition for his remarks in general; and I cannot overlook the fact that they were made about Nova Scotia, which is a veritable treasure house of historic background. The subjects with which he dealt are of particular interest to me, particularly the telephone, and I should be quite happy to sit here and listen to remarks in that vein for a much longer period of time. The gentleman who made the first aeroplane flight in the British empire is of course very well known to me, and I have no doubt he will be delighted at this reference to his activities in that field. The area with which my hon. friend dealt is particularly dear to the heart of the premier of Nova Scotia, who is very familiar with it and very fond of it.


George Alexander Drew: He learned his Gaelic there.


Robert Henry Winters: That is where he learned his Gaelic, and where he still goes to practise

it. In that area the federal government chose to locate one of its national parks, Cape Breton national park, in which we have the Cabot trail, one of the most picturesque trails in Canada. I can assure the hon. gentleman that I shall be pleased to seek additional information on the ownership of these historic models, and to see what action, if any, the federal government can take to retain them in a good state of repair in perpetuity.


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: I should like to make a few general observations somewhat along the same lines as those that have already been made toy previous speakers. First of all, I should like to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that this year in Newfoundland we are likely to have serious unemployment. Those who have listened to the answers given by the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Fisheries must have some idea of the serious situation which has developed in the fishing industry in Newfoundland. As that industry concerns a greater number of people than any other, it is going to have a serious effect upon the economic situation this year. I have several letters which indicate that fishermen are not likely to go fishing because of the uncertainty of the situation. I do not wish to dwell on that matter now, except in so far as it refers to the answer that was cited here by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, in which it was stated that the government has certain projects of great value to the country which it proposes to introduce at times when they are needed.
In regard to the projects which might be introduced in Newfoundland, first of all there is an economic survey which was promised under the terms of union. The provincial government at the present time has made an agreement with a New York corporation, sponsored by the Rockefeller foundation, for the investigation of economic conditions. Already the Newfoundland industrial development board has completed an investigation with regard to Newfoundland's resources. The federal government therefore would be in a good position to help out in that respect. I hope that the results will be beneficial.
I have not yet heard from the minister whether the Newfoundland government has signed the agreement in connection with the construction of the trans-Canada highway. If it has not been done yet, I feel that everyone in Newfoundland would like to see two sections attacked this year. One is from St. John's to Gander, where our great airport is, and the other is from Port aux Basques to Corner Brook, because that is
Supply-Resources and Development the section of the country which offers the most attractions to tourists who are interested in fishing and shooting. A large number of American tourists come down there every year; and they are a source of profit to the guides and to those who operate hostels in that section of the country.
I am sure that the minister must be anxious to see a national park established in Newfoundland. One area which has been devoted by the government of Newfoundland for a long time to that sort of thing is on the Avalon peninsula, which has been a sanctuary. I believe that is the place where the government might establish a national park in the first place, on the Salmonier line, where it seems to me, from the difference in the climate between that section of the country and the east coast near the seashore, would be the most suitable place for encouraging the increase in game and the growth of various kinds of trees. It is a wonder to me that the Salmonier valley which is a most attractive place, with many natural advantages, has not been settled more than it has been.
With regard to the question of historic sites, of which mention has been made, may I say that we have some historic sites in Newfoundland. In fact so important are these historic sites that I think the history of Canada will have to be rewritten in order to do justice to those we have there. First of all, we have cape Bonavista, represented by the Secretary of State, where in 1497 John Cabot, who set out from Bristol, England, first saw land in the new world. We have St. John's which, according to tradition, is the place where John Cabot first dropped anchor on June 24, 1497, and where in 1583 Gilbert laid the cornerstone of what is now known as the British commonwealth of nations. We have Cupids, where in 1610 John Guy attempted to establish a settlement, and Bristol's Hope, where the first English-speaking child in Canada was born; Harbour Grace, where John Mason attempted to found a colony; Trinity, associated with Captain Whitbourne, who was a great lover and admirer of Newfoundland and wrote a book about it, and who fought in the Spanish Armada with Sir Francis Drake; Ferryland, where Lord Baltimore founded a settlement, but unfortunately, because of pirates and at the time the hostility of the French fleet, was forced to abandon the colony and establish a colony in what is now known as the state of Maryland in the United States.
We also had in Newfoundland a tribe of Indians that has been wiped out. They were known as Beothucks. There are many interesting points in Newfoundland where battles
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Supply-Resources and Development took place between white men and Indians and where the last of this great race of people were seen.
I come now to the question of reforestation.
I am sure it must be known to the minister that between seventy-five and eighty-five per cent of the forest lands in Newfoundland are now controlled by two companies. Did I hear the minister make a reference to sixty-five per cent?


Robert Henry Winters: I did not say anything.


William Joseph Browne: The great bulk of these timberlands are controlled by two companies, the Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company, and the Bowaters Company, operating at Corner Brook. Reforestation has never been practised on any considerable scale. It is a policy that I advocated previously, and which I now advocate as being essential for Newfoundland. Anyone who has read the writings of Sir Edmund Gosse, the famous curator of the British museum and a great literary man, will remember his statement that when his father went to Conception bay a hundred years ago the trees of pine and spruce came down to the water's edge. If anyone travelled along Conception bay now he would see only small patches of trees near the water's edge, and he would notice that large areas have been burnt over.
This brings me to a subject in which I am specially interested, namely, the prevention of forest fires. It seems to me that in this country sufficient attention has not been given to the prevention of fires. I would recommend strongly that every fire should be carefully investigated in order to find out what the cause was, and then that rules be drafted to try to prevent recurrences. During the time that I was magistrate in St. John's, I remember personally conducting an inquiry into every fire that took place there. It may have been a coincidence, but as a result of those inquiries, I believe, we went for a long time, for months in St. John's, without hearing a fire alarm. That situation perhaps has been considerably changed through the introduction on a great scale of oil-burning stoves for domestic use.
In regard to forest fires, the department must take all the precautions they possibly can. Only last week we heard of fires along a nine-mile front. Anyone who has seen a forest fire in action realizes how terrible it can be. It destroys not only the forests but also wildlife and sometimes settlements. Occasionally there is also loss of life.
We have had very serious forest fires in our country. In fact I believe there has been


more destruction of timber resources by forest fires in Newfoundland than have actually been used by the paper companies since they were first established there in 1904. Therefore I would recommend most strongly to the minister that, so far as he is able, he give particular study to this question, and to the introduction of any preventive measures that might come as a result of that study.


Mr. Carroll:: Without attempting to divert
the discussion that we have had, I think it would be unfortunate if in considering what was accomplished by Bell and his associates at Baddeck, both in relation to telephone communication and in flying, the name of Casey Baldwin should be omitted. The hon. member for Cumberland knows Casey Baldwin very well. I suggest that the name of Casey Baldwin will long be held in the greatest respect and admiration for the things that he helped Mr. Bell and his associates to accomplish in Baddeck.
I invite the minister, when he comes down to look over the historical material that is there, to partake of a late breakfast with me, because I am building a little house at Baddeck in the prettiest spot on the ocean lakes.


Mr. Brooks:: I agree with what has been
said with reference to the marking of historic sites. I want to pay tribute to the memory of a man who I think has done more in Canada to preserve historical sites than any other. I refer to the late Dr. Clarence Webster, of New Brunswick. I am sure that Dr. Webster's name is familiar to everyone in Canada. His name is a household word in the maritime provinces. He was born in Shediac and studied medicine and practised his profession in the United States, where he made an international reputation for himself. In his later years he returned to his native province of New Brunswick and devoted his time, to the marking and perpetuating of historic sites. I do not suppose there is any man on the North American continent who has done more along this line than Dr. Webster.
The maritime provinces, like the province of Newfoundland, were more or less the cradle of history in the Dominion of Canada, and Dr. Webster devoted his time to the recovery of old sites and forts and of obtaining information on relics relating to the early days, of the time of the Indians, the French regime, and later when the English-speaking people were in possession of the country. I might just mention too that his collection of relics of General Wolfe, for instance, is considered the finest in the world.
Dr. Webster devoted his time to the uncovering of the massive ruins of Fort Louisbourg, Cape Breton. He has done a great work there

lor posterity. I think his most notable work was in connection with Fort Beausejour, which is one of the great historical museums of Canada. Thousands of people from the United States and Canada visit this museum every year.
I rose merely to pay tribute to this great Canadian and to call attention to the splendid work he did for the people of Canada, which I hope will be continued by others in the future.


Mr. Stick:: I should like to thank the hon. member for St. John's West for mentioning the historical places in Newfoundland, because 'they are all pretty well in my riding. May I return the compliment by drawing the attention of the committee to the historic site of Signal Hill in St. John's. It is rich in history, and goes back for hundreds and hundreds of years. Very little has been done to preserve it. It was on Signal Hill that Marconi received his wireless signal from Penzance. In my riding there is a place called Heart's Content, where the first transatlantic cable was landed on the American continent. These are historical events, and now that we are a part of Canada they should be preserved. I do not think that we in Newfoundland appreciate their significance as much as we should. Now that the question has been raised, perhaps the minister will see to it that his department and our province work out some scheme of preserving these historic sites; otherwise they will be lost. There are many of them in Newfoundland, and a great many of them are in my riding. I would like to see them preserved. When the people from this part of Canada come to Newfoundland they will have something worth-while to look at and they will realize that that part of Canada, now the tenth province, is rich in history which will add to the history of this dominion.


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: I should like to associate myself with my deskmate, the hon. member for Royal, in his reference to Dr. Webster. I had many contacts with him in recent years. Dr. Webster was a great Canadian. Only a few weeks ago he passed away. He was at the unveiling of the extension to the museum at Fort Beausejour last summer. He then said that his day was about done. He asked those who would come after him to preserve the relics and to add to those that were in that museum.
On that occasion, Dr. Charles Eaton, a prominent member of the United States congress, who now lives in New Jersey, but was born in Pugwash, Cumberland, was there and gave the main address. The minister's predecessor, now Mr. Justice Gibson, was there to represent his department and the government of Canada. I want to join the member for Royal
Supply-Resources and Development in paying my sincere tribute to Dr. Webster, one of the great Canadians who gave his very best to make known our history and to preserve those relics of the past. He pointed out to the people of Canada their duty and their obligation to have them preserved.
I should also like to join with the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond in his tribute to Casey Baldwin. Casey Baldwin too was a great Canadian. He took a deep interest in these matters of scientific concern to Nova Scotia and to Canada. He carried out the work inspired by Graham Bell in connection with the aeroplane, and the improvement of an appliance attached to boats, to which reference was made by the leader of the opposition; paravanes, in the nature of wings, served to lift boats as they reached higher speeds, thus preventing friction in the water and increasing greatly their speed. He made an intensive examination into the possibilities connected with the speed of boats, with particular application to their use in time of war.
Casey Baldwin was for a time a member of the legislature for Victoria county. No man took a greater interest in the development of highways than he did. Votes did not mean much to him; he was more interested in the actual work that could be done on the highways. It was Casey Baldwin who was instrumental in doing the pioneer work that resulted in the establishment of Highlands national park. In the days of depression the money was not available, but Casey Baldwin pioneered in the development of that park, which is now being improved from year to year.
It was he who suggested to me, when I was minister of highways, that we build the Cabot trail. He claimed, and had evidence to prove it, that the first landfall made in North America by Cabot was on Cape Breton island. It was his recommendation that this trail, one of the most famous in North America, should be known as the Cabot trail, and it is so known today.
I join with those who have paid tribute to these two great men whose names mean so much in Nova Scotia. Graham Bell is buried in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, although he was not born there. However, his heart and his interests, as the leader of the opposition has said, were there. Many of his experiments were carried out in Nova Scotia, and no time should be lost in seeing that his memory and his works are preserved.


Mr. Herridge:: I had not intended to speak, but I could not sit here longer, listening to references to historical aspects of the maritime provinces, without bringing to the atten [DOT] tion of the minister the great explorer who discovered the Columbia river which flows
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Supply-Resources and Development through my constituency. I refer of course to David Thompson. Regardless of the fact that both provincial and federal governments have had departments dealing with historic sites, one cannot find a single monument or cairn erected at any point over the whole length of the Columbia river to indicate its discovery by this great explorer. There is nothing to show where his encampments were made, or anything of the kind.
Neither the provincial nor the federal government has done anything to record the historic work of that great expplorer. I cannot understand why as a nation we are so slow in marking the points in this country having historical significance, because in relation to the extent of our other expenditures the amounts required in this instance would be small indeed. It would not cost a great deal to erect cairns bearing bronze plaques for the information of the public. Will the minister tell the committee whether there is co-operation between the federal and provincial departments concerned with the preservation and marking of historic sites? What determines which government shall carry out the restoration or marking required?


Robert Henry Winters: The marking of historic sites is the function of the department acting on the advice of the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada. Where the site in question is of national significance in the history of Canada it is handled in that way. There are many other sites of course which have only local significance, and in those cases provincial or municipal governments take the proper steps to commemorate the occasion. I can assure the hon. member that there is co-operation in the matter of marking sites.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Would the minister consider the discovery of the Columbia a matter of national significance?


Robert Henry Winters: I do not think anyone could overlook the significance of the Columbia river in the national development of Canada. Whether or not its national significance historically comes within the administration of this department is something that would have to be determined by the historic sites and monuments board.


Mr. Gillis:: I do not wish to break up this friendly discussion, but I find it hard to understand why the only subject under discussion now is that of museums and historic sites. We are discussing the first item in the minister's department, which has reference to departmental administration. While I do not wish to detract from any of the glories of the past, still I am not too much interested in them.

I have gone over the minister's estimates, and I should not like Hansard to go out leading people to think, Well, this is the department responsible for the future development of Canada and for mapping out our potentialities from coast to coast; this is the department which will follow the government's policy regarding the future development of the country, as announced by many of the ministers, that it will support the system of private enterprise where it works, and, where it fails, supplement such private enterprise by government action.
I was surprised when going through the minister's estimates to find very little about' the development of the resources of the country, or the supplementing of free enterprise where it has failed. True, there is a good deal about water, about the Arctic, about scientific surveys, and all that sort of thing; but there is nothing concrete in his estimates that fits in with the picture across the country as I see it today.
I am disappointed in that. For instance, in the matter of housing, for which the minister's department is responsible, I find very little. His statement has indicated that he has taken an interest in this subject, and that he has a program; but in the estimates before us one would imagine nothing is being done by the department in the matter of housing.


Robert Henry Winters: Why would my hon. friend come to that conclusion?


Clarence Gillis: Because I have read the estimates. I cannot see in them anything which would show that the minister has a program in mind.


Robert Henry Winters: I believe that as we go through the estimates the hon. member will find that his point will be covered-certainly in respect to housing.


Clarence Gillis: I hope so. If we are honest with ourselves, if we go across this country today and visit the industrial sections, we will find great anxiety in the minds of those who are operating industries about markets for the future. There is in every section a process of laying off help, and a bad unemployment situation is developing. The government did have a shelf of public works that was intended to fit into the picture so as to absorb the unemployed until international trade problems could be ironed out. They have shelved that public works program, and I have no hope of finding anything in the minister's estimates to cover the situation in areas where unemployment is not seasonal or regional; and I refer particularly to the maritimes. I do not think the discussion we have had on this administration item

is at all realistic. Before the minister finishes with his estimates I hope he will be able to tell us that something is to be done. The maintenance of monuments, historic sites and national parks is not going to feed these people or cure our unemployment situation. It is not enough to arrange for things to go into our museums, because that will not solve the problems that are developing today.
I consider the minister to be a capable man who has had practical training. He is from Nova Scotia, and I have a lot of respect for him, because I believe he is loyal to that part of the country. I hope he will be able to tell us that some permanent measures are to be taken to relieve an unemployment situation which is more or less permanent in character.


Robert Henry Winters: If hon. members consider that they have had ample opportunity to discuss the administration item, perhaps we could move on to the detailed items, when the answers to the questions raised by the hon, member for Cape Breton South will become apparent. Considerable amounts are provided for projects in Nova Scotia, and in most cases, if not in all, a consideration for initiating the project was the unemployment that existed.


Clarence Gillis: Will the minister give me the number of one of those items?


Robert Henry Winters: A large amount of work is to be done in the Cape Breton national park, by way of highway construction, and so on. There is also the trans-Canada highway program, although Nova Scotia has not signed as yet. A considerable amount of money is being allotted for housing under the dominion-provincial program, and .would be available to any province, including Nova Scotia, if it cares to use it.


Mr. Rowe:: I hope I am not out of order, but I feel that this first item should permit a discussion of our natural resources. So far no mention has been made of fire protection for our forests, and I am beginning to think that we have overlooked the importance of our- great forest resources. During the last ten years spectacular changes have occurred in the development of these resources, and it might be said that we sometimes failed to see the forest for the trees.
Members representing both rural and urban ridings have stressed the importance of agriculture to this country. We are spending perhaps $60 million or $70 million under the agriculture items, and in addition there are the subsidies that are being paid to
1, 1950	3059
Supply-Resources and Development advance the development of our great agricultural industry. But we should not forget our forest resources and the industry that is dependent upon them.
I notice there is an item covering the forestry branch, and I suppose further discussion could be carried on under that item. Under our present constitutional set-up the provinces have to do with property and civil rights, but in the general development of our country there has been overlapping in connection with many services, such as health and agriculture. At one time or another some of these matters were more specifically provincial in character, but I fear of late we have had what amounts to duplication of services. .
Our forest resources and our forest industry seem to have been forgotten so far as this house is concerned, and so far as this and previous governments are concerned. I would emphasize that there is little apparent change this year. Although there is some increase in the vote for the forestry branch, the total expenditure is still something under $3 million. We should realize what the forestry industry means by way of employment and national development, by way of the creation of national wealth and favourable balances of trade. In my opinion too little attention has been paid by our national government to the protection of our forest resources, to their development and to their conservation. Not enough attention has been paid to this growing industry.
I appreciate the responsibilities that the provinces have, and perhaps this matter is more specifically provincial than some of the other items. However, it might be of interest to outline some aspects of our forest industry. One out of every ten carloads of freight moving across the country is made up of forest products. Twenty per cent of Canada's trade is made up of forest products. Thirty-eight cents out of every United States dollar received for commercial exports represents forest products.
In the last twenty years we have more than doubled our exports of pulp. Our pulp production has doubled in ten years, and we now supply twenty-seven per cent of the world's needs, whereas less than ten years ago we were producing only sixteen per cent. We now provide fifty-seven per cent of the world consumption of newsprint, where previously we supplied only forty-one per cent. The production ten years ago was something like 3,300,000 tons, whereas today it is 5,200,000 tons. The importance of this in actual dollar value is enormous.

Supply-Resources and Development
I feel that we have overlooked the importance of this industry in our economy. Tremendous advancement occurred in the two great wars, especially in the latter one. Today more people are reading newspapers and more people are using forest products. World consumption is increasing, and one of the greatest resources Canada has is her forests. There has been an increased consumption of rayons, celanese, wallboard, milk cartons, and hundreds of other articles, all produced from this great resource.
Just as our agricultural fields must be kept fertile, so must our forest resources be preserved by proper scientific methods. I hope I will be pardoned for speaking like this. Along with other members I have spoken in support of our agricultural industry, but 1 feel that anyone who is interested in the development of Canada should not overlook the vital importance of doing everything possible to protect our forest resources. The greatest need is for protection from fire and insects. Millions of cords of timber are being destroyed annually by insects and fire. I can illustrate this point best by saying that more good timber is destroyed by insects and fires per annum than is used in the whole pulp and paper industry to bring nearly a billion dollars into this country. When you stop and realize the situation, it is so gigantic and tragic that we should not overlook it any longer.
I feel I am consistent in what I say, because a few years ago our former leader emphasized that we should have a national forestry policy, and that we should establish a department to co-ordinate the efforts of the different provinces. I am not speaking politically on this issue, because it far transcends party lines. No matter what government has been in power in past years it seems to me they have overlooked the importance of an over-all national policy to co-ordinate the efforts of the provinces in this regard, in their respective fields.
Someone might ask how I would propose to have the dominion help. The minister knows very well that constructive work has been done and is being done by his department with reference to protection from insects. Nevertheless even if all this money were spent in any one of these ventures it would be very small indeed compared with the great industry that is involved and the tremendous amount of work to be done. Perhaps the provinces might be criticized for not doing as much as they might have. It is important that the Department of Resources and Development study carefully what might be done by way of a national policy. Many companies operating in the forests have extensive road programs running into 300 or 400 miles of roadway. These roads serve to

bring out timber, and also serve as a means for transporting personnel engaged in fighting fires and protecting our forests from fire.
It is not much help if in one area there are 200 miles of highway, and only about 40 miles between that area and another company's operations across the border of the limit. One hundred miles of road would link up two systems covering 1,000 miles. Our forest rangers could travel on these roads and be available in case of fires that mean so much to the industry and to the country generally. As everyone will recall, we have had fires that have destroyed hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of virgin timber that might have been saved. The aeroplane has been of great help. While it has been accepted that the provinces should assume the responsibility for our forests, nevertheless Canada cannot afford to allow this great resource to be treated on any other basis than that of the treatment accorded to agriculture, mining, fisheries, and many other industries and enterprises vital to the welfare of our people.
I hope that at the dominion-provincial conference the government will discuss ways and means by which we may have a broader national co-ordinated plan of forest protection from fires and insects. There is every justification for the government of Canada spending several million dollars on a national forest highway policy to connect areas in different provinces and operations within areas. I should like to say in fairness to all classes of society that no industry has got along for a longer period of time and shown greater development with less government assistance than the forest industry of Canada. As you know, what has been spent on our forests by the provinces is infinitesimal compared with the revenues the provinces have collected. We are spending only $2,500,000 or $3 million on a forestry branch involving an industry responsible for 38 cents of every United States dollar produced by all our commercial exports, and an industry that is growing in importance in relation to the general development of the country.
We should realize, Mr. Chairman, that it takes 100 acres of Canadian forest to produce one of the biggest newspapers in the United States every day that the sun rises. There is an increased demand for pulp and paper products. Hundreds of new uses are being discovered almost every decade. Fine papers and other products are being produced in addition to timber and products of heavier tonnage. When you realize that it takes 100 acres every day to print one daily paper in New York, it is evident that we must perpetuate our forests if we are to have a lasting industry. It takes from fifty to sixty

years to grow a tree in the northern parts of our dominion. Therefore a plan must be evolved for the perpetuation of tree growth in order that the industry may operate.
Many of our pulp and paper industries today have twenty-five and thirty year clubs. Some of our companies have workers of the third generation employed. Those of the second generation have never been employed anywhere else, and now the third generation is employed in the same plant. The industry is permanent and stable, but their stability will depend on the protection of their resources, their supply of raw materials.
I believe the department should spend much more money in the protection of the forests from insects. In the Thunder Bay district of Ontario about ten million cords of wood are affected by budworm infestation. Some of you may have gone through the forests and seen the budworms in action. You will hear stories about how the timber should be salvaged. I have stood in the forest and watched one of our sawyers saw pulpwood. I have seen him make seven cuts before he got a log that would scale and for which he could get paid. That will give you some idea whether a man will go in there to cut wood. This area stands there as a stark monument of the budworm infestation.
I am not blaming the department. You have some excellent men, and there are excellent men in the provincial departments. Vigorous campaigns have been carried on in co-operation with the department for the last two or three years, but it seems that there is no way to overcome the situation. Aeroplane dusting and other methods have been employed, but it just seems to be one of those things that it is almost impossible to eradicate.
The control of forest fires and other types of insect infestation such as fungus should be given more study. When you have an industry the size of the Canadian forest industry, one that means so much to this country, it is not nearly sufficient to have in the estimates an item of less than $3 million, in these days when the dollar will only go about one-third as far as it did ten or twenty years ago. The amount of this item has changed very little over the years. It is only something like $133,000 more than last year; and this seems to me to be a glaring example of the failure on the part of the government to appreciate the importance of this great national asset and this important industry.
I urge that careful consideration be given both to highway development and to greater research with respect to insects and everything else that will help protect the forests.
Supply-Resources and Development Canada is the centre of the pulp and paper industry of the world. The industry is growing, and to realize its importance it is only necessary to look at the records of our exports, at the employment it gives and the income it provides for those enga'ged in it. I hope the government will consider increasing the expenditure along these lines, and I urge in all sincerity that another year, and especially after another dominion-provincial conference, the government take another look at this new industry, which has shown greater growth than any other on this continent. When we consider that we supply eighty-five per cent of the newsprint requirements of 150 million people to the south, we realize what a great resource this is. If we have not been neglecting it, at least we have not been husbanding it as we should. I do not particularly criticize this department or the minister's stewardship; this has been an oversight of governments for many years; but this industry has doubled in ten years and more than trebled in thirty years, and we should appreciate its importance in our economy. I believe that with greater utilization of our forests, with the discovery of new uses to which these products can be put, this industry can double again and carry on for the next fifty years as one of our great basic industries. We should look upon forestry as we look upon agriculture, because since the beginning of this country they have been the great basic industries; they have been the great sources of wealth; they have provided employment and opportunity for sound investments.


Mr. McLure:: I am not going to say anything about historic sites, because everyone knows that my province is the most historic site in the whole dominion. However, when we speak of museums I believe I could locate the first automobile made and operated in Canada. It was made by a parish priest at Rustico, in my constituency. I believe it would be worth looking up, because it was put together and operated a great many years ago.
The estimates for this department amount to something over $26 million. I want to draw to the attention of the minister, as I did last year, the fact that included in this amount is a blank cheque for $2,416,539 for temporary assistance. In other years we could never find out how many temporary employees there were; but after pounding away at this for a long time I am very glad to see that we are now given the number of both temporary and permanent employees. The permanent employees number 575; the temporary employees amount to something around 1,200. There is still another class,
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Supply-Resources and Development the casually employed, and we do not know how many come within that group. I should like to go one step further, and get more information about these temporary employees. According to the amount being voted they are being paid an average salary of $2,050 per year; and I believe this committee is entitled to know how many it is going to be possible to make permanent. Personally I believe many of these people are useful employees, especially at election time, when we always find a great deal more money being voted for them. I know that in my own constituency over 150 temporary employees were put on before the last election, and we had a hard time to hold them down. They even split their votes. However, we were able to assure them that once the election was over, win, lose or draw, they would be dismissed.


An hon. Member:: Were they?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Most of them lost their jobs, because the work ended then.
I was going to say that many of these people should be made permanent, and we should be told why all these temporaries are employed. If there is work for them, all the better. It seems to me the administration of this department is a pretty expensive matter, amounting in all to something under $3 million. However, the things I desire to take up can be dealt with as the various items are called, since it is now one o'clock; but I repeat that I believe the committee is entitled to more information with respect to temporary employees.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Mr. Hodgson:: This morning in our deliberations much was said about historical events and all that sort of thing. I can concur in everything that has been said. I agree with my leader that a permanent home should be built for the relics of historical events and achievements so that they may be preserved for the education, benefit and pleasure of future generations.
There are, however, a few other things that I want to go into now rather than on each item. I am not going to ask the minister now to answer questions in full or any part of them as far as that is concerned. He can take the matters up as each item comes along, if he wants to. The matter of travelling expenses has come to my attention, because it seems to me to be a large amount for one department. I am not going into each item, but the amount ranges from $300 up to $34,000. The whole total is $309,150. This is an increase of $70,650 over last year. That


seems to be a terrific amount for travelling. I do not know how many people have been travelling or where they have been travelling, but there must have been a great number and they must have travelled elsewhere than in the Dominion of Canada in order to spend that large amount of money.
The next thing I want to mention is the sundries accounts. I think these things should be more specific and that they should be set out so that we would know more about what they are. Probably the minister and his assistants can tell us just what these sundries are as we go along. The sundry accounts run from $100 up to $96,500. That seems to be a great deal of money for an account called a sundries account. The total for the sundries account is $327,354, an increase of $62,490 over last year. It seems to me that in, some of these things there might be a saving, or at least they might be set out in such a way that we could understand them better. As we go over the estimates item by item, we hope that the minister will be able to clear up these matters.
Then the publicity account runs into $3,617,834 or an increase of $343,894 over last year. On this one item for publicity more money is spent by the department than is spent on forestry, of which the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe spoke this morning. I think that we shall need to have quite a few questions answered, and the minister had better get his assistants or helpers prepared to answer them when we go through the estimates item by item. I want to know about many things, and I am sure that there are others in the committee who feel the same way as I do about these large expenditures and large increases over last year. That is all I have to say now. We will take the estimates up item by item, as far as I am concerned.


Howard Charles Green: There is one matter to which I should like to refer on this administration item because it really does not come under any one of the specific items. It has to do with the question as to whether or not the government has an iron and steel policy. Today is the first opportunity we have had to discuss the estimates of this new department which, significantly, is known as the Department of Resources and Development. May I suggest to the minister that one of his main tasks should be to initiate policies that will lead to the development and the use of our Canadian resources. That is set out in the statute under which this department was formed. In section 7 (1) of last year's act we find the following language: The minister may formulate plans for public works and improvements, housing, community development, research-*

And then the section goes on:
-and the conservation and development of the resources of Canada . . .
Then subsection 2 reads:
The minister may co-operate with the provinces and with municipalities in carrying out any development programs.
Subsection 3 reads:
In carrying out his duties and functions under this section the minister may consult with and inaugurate conferences of representatives of producers, industry, science, labour and provincial and municipal authorities.
At this particular time in Canada's history it seems to me that this question of developing and using our resources is of the utmost importance, particularly the new resources which have been recently discovered such as the iron and titanium in Quebec, the iron in Labrador, the oil and gas in Alberta, and also uranium which is so essential for the development of atomic energy.


Robert Henry Winters: If the hon. member will permit me to do so, I should like to say that I think that this matter would more appropriately be discussed under the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Howard Charles Green: No, Mr. Chairman, I think that the responsibility rests with the Minister of Resources and Development. It is not only a question of mining the iron or these other commodities; it is a question of the development of Canada with these resources, and that comes directly under the minister in the same way that he has responsibility for the trans-Canada highway, which is in reality a development project.
I believe that these new discoveries of natural resources are the most important ones that we have had in Canada since confederation. Granted that it would take some time to work out a policy as to how they can best be used, I think the time has now come when the government should be able to tell the Canadian people what the policy is to be with regard to these resources. The minister himself, speaking at St. Catharines in February of this year, pointed out the great importance of the discoveries of iron ore and oil; and Donald Gordon, the new president of the Canadian National Railways, had this to say last year, on October 13, 1949-


Robert Henry Winters: I wonder if the hon. member will permit me to say again that this department is not responsible for the development of iron ore, oil or any similar resource that can be depleted. We are responsible for the development of resources of the renewable type. If it were a matter of building roads
Supply-Resources and Development to facilitate the mining of iron ore or that sort of thing, it might be a different problem. But the development of the ore body, let us say, and the utilization of the ore, is not a function of this department.


Howard Charles Green: I submit that the minister is responsible for policies having to do with the use of these resources. The very name of his department, the Department of Resources and Development, indicates that. I am afraid the position is that there is no policy whatsoever, and the responsibility comes back to this particular minister.


The Deputy Chairman:: I do not know whether the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys have been before the committee of supply. I do not think they have. The Minister of Resources and Development has said that it is not his responsibility. I would suggest to the hon. member that he wait and discuss the question when the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys are before the committee. Even if in the opinion of the hon. member it should be the responsibility of the Minister of Resources and Development, the minister has twice said that it is not. I do not think we would be saving any time by continuing to discuss these questions.


Howard Charles Green: Surely, the Department of
Resources and Development has some responsibility for the use of Canadian resources. The Department of Mines and Technical Surveys may be involved in the actual mining of ores, but I am not concerned about the mining. What I am worried about is what is going to be done after this iron ore is mined. What is to be done in the way of using the iron ore to produce steel? That certainly does not come under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys.


Robert Henry Winters: That is more appropriately a matter for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I suggest again that it does not come under the jurisdiction of this department.


Howard Charles Green: I am submitting that the minister is quite wrong. It is a matter of the development and use of our resources, and that certainly comes under his department, in the same way that he is responsible for various resources of Canada. Whatever dominion responsibility there is rests with this minister whose estimates are before us today.


Mr. Milchell:: On a point of order, I may say to my hon. friend that he is in the right church but in the wrong pew. I think he should take the minister's word for it. There will be ample opportunity to make a speech when the question involved is before the
3064	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development house. I think the hon. member should take the minister's word for it. I think he knows his responsibility.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I must advise the minister immediately that the point of order he raised is not a point of order.
I understand the hon. member for Van-couver-Quadra is of the opinion that these matters to which he has referred should be within the jurisdiction of the Minister of Resources and Development. It is a matter of opinion. It is a legal question which the chairman is not called upon to decide.


Howard Charles Green: I was going on to quote a statement made by Donald Gordon, the new president of the Canadian National Railways, in which he was quoted on October 13 of last year as saying:
There is an obvious feeling in the air which bespeaks a new era of Canadian progress, and in that development, the railroads will have to develop too.
Then he went on:
The new era's roots lie in Alberta oil, in iron ore, titanium, base metals and numerous other sources.
I think Mr. Gordon's statement was correct, that the foundation for great developments in Canada is available in these resources and particularly in the iron ore. In the speech from the throne of January 26, 1949, we find these words:
You will be asked to make legislative provision for governmental assistance by loan to the producers of basic steel for the purpose of increasing production.


Robert Henry Winters: I must rise again on a point of order. While this is all very interesting and true, it is not a matter for this department. Whether in the opinion of the hon. member it is, the fact is that it is not, and these duties have not been assigned to me.
I do not think the committee is in order in discussing it under this item.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, you have
already given your ruling on this same point of order which was raised by the Minister of Labour a few moments ago.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


Howard Charles Green: I submit that the minister is not in order in raising the same point again. There is no other department under which this comes.


Robert Henry Winters: Mines and Technical Surveys.


Howard Charles Green: If the name of the minister as Minister of Resources and Development means anything it certainly covers this field, and I submit that I am entitled to proceed. If the minister or the government have any policy with regard to the iron and steel industry-


Robert Henry Winters: I did not say that. I simply said that this matter could be more appropriately discussed under the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. Surely there will be ample opportunity to discuss an item which cannot be properly discussed here.


Howard Charles Green: I cannot discuss this under Mines and Technical Surveys, because I am concerned with the use that is to be made of this iron ore. It simply does not come under Mines and Technical Surveys.


Mr. Fournier (Maisonneuve-Rosemont):: The
hon. member says it comes under this department.


Howard Charles Green: The minister must at least listen to my representations. If he cannot make any statement of policy, that is another matter, but I am entitled to make my submission to him.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Not under this item.


Howard Charles Green: This policy should be initiated by the Department of Resources and Development. We have the situation that in northern Quebec the estimates are that Canada will be producing from 10 million to 20 million tons of iron ore annually.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, surely we should have a ruling on this.


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. member is out- of order.


Robert Henry Winters: Decidedly out of order.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I think it will be admitted that the chairman has been quite generous. I have tried to see that both sides are treated fairly, and I have tried to arrive at some sort of agreement. The Minister of Resources and Development says that it does not come within his jurisdiction. He has also said that he could not effectively reply to the hon. member's remarks or give any additional information which the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra would like to have. In these circumstances the hon. member should decide how far he can go on this item. This is the item under which a general discussion about the estimates of the department takes place, but only in so far as it relates to the estimates of the department under the jurisdiction of the minister.
When the minister says that the matter which the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra is discussing does not come under his jurisdiction, it seems to me that the hon. member should accept that statement; and that the matter could more properly be discussed when the estimates of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys are before the committee. If they had been before the committee and had been carried it would be
30S5

a different matter, but they have not been carried so far. As a matter of fact they have not yet come before the committee. It is a question which is difficult to settle. To a certain extent it is a matter of legal opinion. What I am interested in is to expedite the business of the committee and also to see that all remarks made are relevant to the items before the committee.
It will be pretty hard to convince some hon. members that what the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra is saying now is relevant to the item under discussion. The minister has stated three times that it does not come under his jurisdiction. I would ask the hon. member to govern himself accordingly.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps I can put it in this way -and, incidentally, I think the minister protests too much-that there certainly should be some jurisdiction in this department with regard to an iron and steel policy. Can the minister tell us whether the government as a whole, of which he is a part, has any iron and steel policy for Canada at this time? If so, what is that policy?


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I understand the hon. member is trying to be helpful-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Robert Henry Winters: -but the fact is that he has talked a good deal with respect to a matter that does not come within the ambit of these estimates. There will be opportunity under the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys, which come at the moment under my acting jurisdiction, or under the estimates of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, to give adequate attention to the points he has in mind.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, I think probably the time taken in arguing this matter has equalled the time the hon. member would have devoted to the subject.


Some hon. Members:: No.


George Alexander Drew: But I would suggest to those hon. members who seem so impatient in regard to the exercise of free speech in this chamber, that it is not going to facilitate procedure if they become impatient about the estimates- because these estimates are going to be dealt with, and dealt with very carefully. I do submit that there is the very sort of problem here which you, Mr. Chairman, have indicated in what you have said. There are these borderline problems. I would remind hon. members and the minister that this was one of the very difficulties I pointed out, namely the division between the Department of Resources and Development and the Department of Mines
Supply-Resources and Development and Technical Surveys. I said there would be some doubt as to where the border would be drawn between the two departments.
When the estimates of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys are examined it will be found that there is no provision in that department for a program of development. This program is important for the purpose of dealing with the general matter of supervising mining, the investigating and mapping of mining areas in this country, particularly in view of the fact that the supervision of mining comes under provincial governments.
In this instance I understand the hon. member seeks to discuss the development of a great resource. Even though in the opinion of the minister there may be some borderline difficulty, and even though the minister thinks it does not come under his supervision in this department, my understanding is that the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra thinks there should be a provision for a policy of this kind.
I would point out to the minister that already in his department there is provision for development of forest resources and water resources in the forest areas and in the Northwest Territories, and the development of different types of resources involved there.
I am suggesting that the hon. member be permitted to discuss this subject, unless it becomes apparent that it would be quite out of keeping to do so at this time.


Walter Edward Harris: Will you guarantee there will be no other speeches on the subject?


George Alexander Drew: I will not give that guarantee, if that is what you are concerned with.


Robert Henry Winters: The question is whether or not we will address ourselves to the item before the committee or address ourselves to random items as they happen to occur to hon. members.


Howard Charles Green: That is not the situation at all.


An hon. Member:: Yes, it is.


Howard Charles Green: The question is as to whether Canada has an iron and steel policy.


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, may I-


Howard Charles Green: Wait until I make my statement.


Alphonse Fournier: You have made it twice.


Howard Charles Green: There is a question which must be faced, now. This is not a matter of bringing up something at random; rather it has to do with the resources of Canada, and it certainly has to do with the development of those resources-


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman-

Supply-Resources and Development


Howard Charles Green: -and with the development of Canada. And if-


Alphonse Fournier: On a point of order.


Howard Charles Green: I am on a point of order now.


Alphonse Fournier: No, the hon. member is trying to discuss the iron and steel policy of Canada.


Howard Charles Green: If the minister has no item in his estimates dealing with the iron and steel policy of Canada, that does not mean that the subject does not come under his department, or that he is not responsible for it. My contention is that there should be an iron and steel policy for Canada, and that it is a tragedy that there is no such policy. When a question of this kind comes up, and is not faced by the department which should be responsible for it, then we are entitled to make our complaints that the department is doing nothing to deal with the question. That is what I was endeavouring to do. But to brush me off with the statement that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys or the Minister of Trade and Commerce is responsible is just as ridiculous as to say that this Department of Resources and Development has nothing to do with an iron and steel policy for Canada. The result of the minister's position today is that the question simply could not be discussed on the estimates.


Mr. Mcllraiih:: Of course it can.


Alphonse Fournier: On a point of order, if the hon. member would look at item 445 in the Department of Trade and Commerce he would see that it is a vote to provide for production and transportation subsidies on steel and iron under such terms and conditions as may be approved by the governor in council. The amount of the vote is two million dollars. Does not the hon. member think, in all fairness, that that is where the matter should be discussed? Would he not defer the argument until we come to that item? I suggest that would be the logical way to proceed-unless he insists on making his speech about iron and steel. But I do not think he would be right in doing so.


Howard Charles Green: I am not trying to make a speech; I am trying to get a statement from the government.


Alphonse Fournier: But the minister states it does not come under him.


Howard Charles Green: I am trying to get a statement on government policy with respect to iron and steel in Canada.


Alphonse Fournier: Ask it under that item.


Howard Charles Green: If there is any such policy, then the Minister of Resources and Development should be able to explain it to the committee.


Alphonse Fournier: No.


Robert Henry Winters: That is neither a correct nor a fair statement. I submit it should be discussed under the item brought to the attention of the committee by the Minister of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: The item in question is not broad. It does not deal with the broad question of an iron and steel policy for Canada, it deals only with one small subject. If this new minister is to face his responsibility as Minister of Resources and Development, then he must be prepared-


Robert Henry Winters: As assigned to me by the Prime Minister. I do not face responsibilities assigned to me by the hon. member for Van-couver-Quadra.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I believe I have heard sufficient representations to make a ruling. We cannot carry on this legal and academic discussion throughout the afternoon. Item 358 is now before the committee, and it deals with departmental administration of the Department of Resources and Development. I have looked at the statute and, as the minister has pointed out several times, the matter of an iron and steel policy does not come within his jurisdiction. The Minister of Public Works has told us that this subject could be discussed under item 445, and that is where I say the discussion should come. Furthermore there is the administration item of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys which has not yet been before the committee. In all fairness I do not see how the hon. member can continue to discuss this matter under this item, especially when he will have an opportunity to discuss it under the first item of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys or under an item of trade and commerce which has not yet been called.
A general discussion of matters that come within the ambit of the department is allowed on the first item and I think I have been generous in granting latitude to the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra. We cannot go on forever arguing whether or not this matter should be discussed here. I am informed, and I am satisfied, that this matter could be discussed at another time and I ask the hon. member not to discuss further the matter of government policy in connection with iron ore or steel.


John George Diefenbaker: I have a question I should like to ask the minister. Just as a passing observation may I say that it appears difficult to get a declaration from any minister of the government with regard to the development

of our natural resources. Did not the minister discuss the development of our natural resources in two speeches, one delivered in Toronto and the other in Montreal? Did he not enunciate a great system of development to aid in the expansion of this country?


Some hon. Members:: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: Order?


An hon. Member:: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: You know nothing about order. I am asking the questions. Apparently some hon. members think that by making a noise and by howling they are making an intelligent contribution, but I tell them that they are not going to stop the discussion of these items.


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: That is very
clever.


John George Diefenbaker: You are not one of those in that position.


Pierre Gauthier: I hope not.


John George Diefenbaker: I am asking the minister what happened to that policy which was enunciated when he spoke in Montreal and Toronto. Sometimes we have to read statements made outside the house in order to find out what government policy is going to be. I was much in accord with what the minister said and I am sure the Canadian people read his remarks with interest. But I would like to have the minister enunciate those plans in the house, plans which to say the least are ephemeral until they are discussed in the House of Commons.
I am not arguing whether my hon. friend has the right to discuss iron ore or steel, but I would like the minister to enlarge upon the remarks he made in Toronto and Montreal. The Canadian people want to know if Canada has assumed responsibilities under the North Atlantic pact as was evidenced in press dispatches of the last few days dealing with a meeting in London. The Canadian people want to know to what degree Canada's resources are to be utilized and its development expanded to the end that we may assume our responsibilities under that pact.
This department was set up to deal with the development of our resources and Canadians as a whole should know what we are going to do in regard to the production of minerals and other war materials which will be needed in the event of defence becoming necessary. The United States resources of oil, iron and many other requirements for defence are rapidly being diminished and are passing out of existence. The only country of the north Atlantic group that can supply many 55946-194
1. 1950	3067
Supply-Resources and Development of the materials that will be necessary to the composite defence of the members of the North Atlantic pact is Canada. I should like to hear the minister speak with the same authority, the same vision and the same challenge to the Canadian people that he evinced when he delivered the two speeches to which I have referred.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that that is a sound argument as to why I should go outside my jurisdiction in this House of Commons. It is true that I have made speeches in various parts of the country dealing with different subjects. For example, I represent a fishing constituency and whenever I get a chance I speak about fish, but that does not mean that I can discuss fish in this house when we are dealing with the administration item of the Department of Resources and Development.	[DOT]
I give the undertaking that hon. members will be able to discuss this matter more appropriately at another time. Surely it is a matter of timing and in the interests of expediting the work of the house I suggest that hon. members address themselves to what is before the committee and what is within the jurisdiction of this department.


Humphrey Mitchell: Mr. Chairman, you ruled me out of order but I find that I am now in order.


Mr. Thomas:: Mr. Chairman, I want to say just a few words this afternoon to add my voice to what was said this morning about the problem of reforestation. I realize that this matter comes under the jurisdiction of the provinces, but I submit that the federal government has not taken an active enough part in a matter that concerns the lifeblood of our civilization. It is estimated that up to the present time at least fifty per cent of our forests have been depleted and that fire and insects are destroying 800 million cubic feet of timber per year. Then I should like t'o stress that 900, million cubic feet per year are being lost through wastage in the industry.
Many hon. members may wonder why a member from a prairie province should take an interest in this particular matter, but I would point out that more than three-quarters of Alberta is covered with timber of one kind or another, some good, some not so good. There are something like 59,000 square miles of marketable timber in Alberta and there are something like 400 permanent and over 300 portable saw mills in operation.
Considerable lumbering is carried on in the western half of my constituency around Breton and Winfield. Last spring while

Supply-Resources and Development travelling through that country I saw literally hundreds of fires. Those areas will be ruined for all time unless some reforestation is carried on. As was ipointed out this morning, lumbering is of infinite value to the Canadian economy.
However, there is another matter that is possibly even more important. That is the fact that forests exercise a strong measure of control over the amount of run-off and flood conditions. Possibly the best example to which I can refer is China. When Marco Polo went to China he described it as a land of forests, rich pastures and rich soil. During the course of the years the trees were cut down for one purpose or another and the land was over-grazed. No effort was made toward reforestation or reconversion of the land. The upper reaches of the rivers gave forth torrents of water causing floods up and down their courses. Silt and gravel were carried down into the lowlands. Erosion set in over huge areas of land, and many thousands of square miles were ruined. In some periods they would have floods and in other periods droughts.
To come a little closer home, there is the Mississippi river basin in the United States. It has been discovered that through the creation of tree belts in dry areas partial control at least can be exercised over the flood situation along the Mississippi river. What has taken place there could quite easily take place here. Students of civilization have found that where land goes to waste civilization declines. Many notable examples can be cited such as North Africa, the Middle East and China, to which I have already referred. They are major examples of what happens. We have in Canada a few minor examples of dried-out areas where people are living a subnormal existence. Let us get together and see that we do not have any such examples here. I strongly urge the minister to take up the matter with the government for the purpose of extending much more assistance to the provinces in the matter of reforestation.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: As to this item, I had a return tabled on April 19, 1950. The first question had to do with what departments of the federal government have information and publicity divisions. The second was as to how many employees there are in each of these divisions. The Department of Resources and Development answered that publicity for the administration branch cost $4,670. I notice in the details on page 246 there is one item of $10,000 for publicity and information under the first item of departmental administration. I should like the minister to explain that

to me, and also why he did not include in the return the travelling expenses of the other branches of his department.


Robert Henry Winters: I gather the question is why we are showing $10,000-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why was that not shown in the administration section of the return to which I have referred?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount referred to in the return was the amount spent last year. The $10,000 is the amount estimated for this year. That does not mean we will spend the money. It is just an appropriation to cover what may be spent.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There was $10,000 in the estimates for last year. How did you come to put that $10,000 in there when you had nothing to go on so far as your publicity and information service is concerned?


Robert Henry Winters: That is just an estimate. I should remind my hon. friend of what he already knows, that the Department of Resources and Development is one of those that resulted from a split of two other departments. That amount was put in the estimates for publicity at that time but that does not mean of course that it will be spent. It was an estimate at that time, but it is receiving very close scrutiny at the present moment.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is hard to follow the minister because under printing and stationery the amount in the estimates for 1949-50 was $9,700 but for 1950-51 it has jumped to $15,000. Can you explain why that should be? The item is exactly the same. The minister has explained that it was not all spent.


Robert Henry Winters: On the split, $9,700 was the amount taken over by this department. It was found that it was too low, and it was estimated that an amount of $15,000 would be required for this year.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The minister said that was too low. How much of that was spent last year?


Robert Henry Winters: About $25,000 was spent by
the three departments, and of that amount $9,700 was assigned to this department on the split.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The $9,700 was all spent?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And still you say it is not
enough and that is why you have raised the amount.


Robert Henry Winters: This year we think we will
need to spend more.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does your department employ any commercial advertising agency?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, in the Canadian government travel bureau. But not in the other branches of the department.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: There is no other outside commercial agency?


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Mr. Kent:: I wish to make a few remarks
about national parks. When the departmental item was called this morning I was out of the house attending a committee meeting. I will have to leave again shortly, and therefore my words are going to be brief indeed. I assume the time will arrive in the near future when the possibility of establishing national parks in Newfoundland will come under consideration. I should like to draw the minister's attention to a couple of locations on the west coast of Newfoundland in my riding of Humber-St. George's which I think might receive consideration. My constituency has been described by a former prime minister of Newfoundland as the garden of Newfoundland. There are many places where national parks could be established. I particularly wish to mention the Serpentine area and the upper Humber. The valley of the Serpentine river is renowned both in Newfoundland and outside for its beauty. Standing on the well-wooded hills overlooking Serpentine lake and river one beholds a panorama of beauty. As I understand a national park it is a place where travellers, visitors or tourists may drive off the highway, enter and relax. To my mind the Serpentine area is ideal for this purpose, and the same remarks would apply to the valley of the upper Humber. These areas abound in wildlife of all kinds, including caribou, moose, wildfowl, and so on. There are other similar places in my riding as well, but all I wish to do is draw the attention of the minister to these points and to my riding in general, so that when the time comes to consider the establishment of a national park the west coast may not be forgotten. I feel sure Newfoundland will be treated well, that it will be surveyed and the most suitable place for the park selected.


Robert Henry Winters: Possible sites for national
parks in Newfoundland have been under consideration and study by officials of the department. At the present time one of our officials is on his way back to Ottawa after conducting a survey of the Serpentine area to determine its suitability as a national park.


Percy Chapman Black: I should like to direct one inquiry to the minister. Though it is not covered by any particular item, I know it has his personal blessing and the blessing of the department and the government. I refer to the possible tidal development at the head of the bay of Fundy, 55946-194J
Supply-Resources and Development which was brought before this house by the hon. member for Westmorland. At that time the minister gave the assurance that a survey would be made. I understand that a survey has been made, and I should like to know if the minister is prepared to make a report. This is one of the greatest tidal development possibilities in the world; it is calculated that more power can be produced there than in the international section of the St. Lawrence river. It is estimated that the power available will amount to 2,300,000 horsepower. Is the minister prepared today to report on the position at the present time?


Robert Henry Winters: I am well aware of the interest my hon. friend has in that project, which has tremendous potentialities. It involves the use of the great tides in the bay of Fundy. The particular one to which he has reference would require both a low water basin and a high water basin with an average head, I would imagine, of from twenty to twenty-five feet over the twenty-four hour period. Mr. W. A. Melanson, of whom we have heard in this house before, wrote a report on this development, which I have read. It really was not an engineering treatise, but was more of a general treatment; so we sent one of our departmental engineers from Halifax to discuss the project with Mr. Melanson and make a general survey of the area. That has been done; the matter was discussed with Mr. Melanson, and the engineer flew over the site my hon. friend has in mind at the moment, as well as the other site where the Petitcodiac meets the Memramcook. As yet he has not sent in his report, at least it has not come to my attention.


Percy Chapman Black: I thank the minister for the information he has given, though it is still very indefinite. I want to point out how important it is that a decision be arrived at as soon as possible; for this proposal is in conflict with the suggested Chignecto canal, which is being urged so diligently by a great many people in the maritime provinces, and is also in conflict with the reclamation of the largest portion of the marshlands in Nova Scotia. If this tidal development is proceeded with, it will mean that another, though equally effective, plan must be drawn up with respect to the marshlands. That is why I point out that it is doubly urgent that a decision be arrived at as soon as possible.


Mr. Higgins:: I should like to endorse the plea of the hon. member for Humber-St. George's with respect to a national park in the area he mentioned. In my opinion that is the most suitable area in Newfoundland.

Supply-Resources and Development Unfortunately it is not in my riding, but that is where I believe the park should be established. I notice that according to the estimates this vote has been cut by $1,178,872, from which it would appear that it is not intended to do very much this year. I believe some $50 million have been spent on national parks in Canada, of which I understand some $30 million has been spent in Alberta. I do not know how much you would expect to spend on a national park in the newest province if you should decide to establish one, but it will take a considerable amount of money, and I suggest that an item be placed in the estimates very soon.
This brings me to my next point, in connection with the trans-Canada highway. I take it the idea would be to put that highway through the national park, or at least have it go to the park. I do not know whether the minister is prepared to tell us anything today about the proposed trans-Canada highway in Newfoundland. If he is not, I shall not embarrass him by asking the question, but it has been announced that some changes have been made and that the provincial minister of public works has agreed to them. I was wondering if the minister could tell us what those changes are.
My next question has to do with a water power survey, which I understand comes under this department. Has any application been made by the province for a water power survey, and, if it has, was it agreed to or turned down?
My last question has to do with the development of the tourist industry in my province. I understand the gentleman you call Mr. Travel of Canada will be going to Newfoundland shortly, and we are hoping for great things as a result of his visit. Through the minister, however, I would ask the government to assist in every way in developing the tourist industry in Newfoundland, because we need a great deal of help to make up for the unfortunate results of things over which we had no control so far as the development of our tourist industry was concerned.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. It seems to me the last three speakers have asked questions which would come under specific items. Matters relating to the trans-Canada highway, for instance, would come under item 394. Parks and historic sites would come under item 365, and water power projects might properly be discussed under item 360. If the general discussion is finished I think item 358 should be carried and specific questions asked on the particular items.


Gordon Francis Higgins: The only reason I asked those questions was that I have to go to a committee meeting at four o'clock.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I can appreciate the hon. gentleman's position, but the rules do not provide that hon. members may ask specific questions on the general administration item just because they have to go to committee meetings. It is unfortunate, but I must abide by the rules.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, I have one subject to which I wish to refer.


Robert Henry Winters: In that case, I wonder if the leader of the opposition would allow me to answer the questions which have been raised?


George Alexander Drew: Certainly.


Robert Henry Winters: The trans-Canada highway
project in Newfoundland is one that I hope will come to a head shortly. It was suggested here this morning that the first work should be on a road from Gander to St. John's on the east and from Port aux Basques to Corner Brook on the west. With that I agree. I hope that if and when the agreement is completed, Newfoundland will see fit to proceed on that basis.
Reference was made to the policy as to the trans-Canada highway going through a national park. That situation occurs, of course, in some of the western provinces, in which case the federal government pays the total amount of the costs of building the trans-Canada highway.
The question was asked whether we had been asked by the government of Newfoundland to undertake a water power survey. To my knowledge, and since my time in this department, there has been no request from the government of Newfoundland; but we have entered into an arrangement with Newfoundland for the normal stream surveys involving water flows and that sort of information. These surveys are going forward now in co-operation with the government of Newfoundland.


George Alexander Drew: The subject that I wish to discuss is one which admittedly embraces the activities of different departments, but it relates to a definite responsibility of this department. For that reason I believe it is appropriate to bring it up for consideration on this first general item, because I do not know that there is any one department to which it could more appropriately apply. The subject to which I refer is the manner in which the problem that has been presented by the flooding in Manitoba is to be dealt with.


Robert Henry Winters: Would that not be more appropriately discussed under the heading of the international joint commission under the Secretary of State for External Affairs?


George Alexander Drew: No, Mr. Chairman; not the aspect that I propose to deal with. I would point

out that the Department of Resources and Development has a direct interest in this problem through its interest in the National Housing Act and the effect of these floodings on its own interests in that area. There is also the question of the waterways involved, because this department is already making surveys of other waterways. It is for the reason that these two subjects come directly under this department that I believe it would be appropriate that I make certain observations now, recognizing as I do that a number of related subjects are obviously at the present time outside the field of this department.
I wish to place before the government my belief that some new approach should be made to the over-all problem that is faced today in Manitoba. First of all may I make it quite clear that in any remarks I make I am certainly not suggesting that there should be the slightest attempt to override the executive jurisdiction of the provincial governments over municipal law and municipal administration. Nor am I suggesting that the plans that should be developed would at any time fail to recognize the authority under the British North America Act of the provincial or municipal elected bodies and their administrative officials. There are, however, reasons why, it seems to me, I should place this suggestion before the minister now, so that if the government finds that it can agree with the proposal put before it, there will be time to bring it into effect.
There has been a certain amount of discussion of the question whether this great disaster, affecting not only the city of Winnipeg but also the tremendous area from Winnipeg south to the border of the United States, should be dealt with entirely by the provincial government or by some combined organization within the provincial area, or whether there should be some direct intervention by the dominion government. I believe that it is necessary that a bill be introduced in the House of Commons-I suggest it would be appropriate that the Minister of Resources and Development introduce it, having regard to the concern of his department already with this question-so that provision which does not now exist might be made for effective co-operation among dominion, provincial and municipal authorities in dealing with this complex question.
When it is said that this is entirely a provincial matter-and I qualify that by making it quite clear that the Prime Minister stated that the dominion government intends to accept responsibility for the financial aspect of the problem-when it is said that it is a matter that should be be handled entirely within the province, it should be pointed out that the dominion government is irrevocably
1, 1950
Supply-Resources and Development involved in this whole question now, and that it cannot divest itself of the direct responsibility and the direct interest that it already has on a large scale.
It is my opinion-and I believe it is shared by everyone else who has seen that area- that this is the greatest disaster of the kind which has ever occurred on this continent. It is nothing but a miracle that there was no substantial loss of life as a result of the floods. But although there was not a large number of deaths

and all of us will rejoice in that fact-we have seen nothing comparable with the damage .to this large city itself and to the country stretching more than eighty miles to the south.
My own impression is that the extent of the disaster will not be known for some considerable time. The unhappy truth is that many people will hardly be aware of the extent of their own losses until the water has receded and they can determine not only the damage to their houses, their furniture and other belongings, but also the immense amount of work which will be required to restore the land around the house, to remove the wreckage and to repair the erosion that has taken place in areas where a heavy current has been running continuously for weeks.
I would point out that the dominion government is deeply and directly committed in several ways. For instance, it has direct interest and direct obligation under such legislation as the National Housing Act, the Veterans Land Act, the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation Act and related legislation.
A great many of the homes, still largely under water even at this date, in the flood area of Winnipeg, are homes where these direct interests of the dominion government are substantially involved. Moreover, in the great area to the south of Winnipeg the dominion government has a direct concern under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, and other legislation which affects the rural areas.
There is another way in which the dominion government comes directly into this. The Red river is a navigable stream; so also are some of the other rivers concerned. For that very reason they come under the authority of the dominion government, and the working out of arrangements in connection with these rivers would, I submit, come within the scope of the responsibilities of this department.
There is another aspect to this problem. In both the Red and the Souris, which empties into the Assiniboine, the waters rise on the United States side of the border. Therefore, since they are international waters, those waters can only be dealt with effectively by

Supply-Resources and Development the dominion government. In the period of reconstruction that will follow the arrangements that are made to deal with this situation, it will be necessary to have regard to the international aspect of this whole question, and it will be necessary for the dominion government to bring into operation the machinery of the international joint commission, and also to take care that on the Canadian side of the border whatever is done is done in conformity with the international arrangements.
Furthermore, it will be necessary for the Canadian government to take such steps as are appropriate to persuade the federal government of the United S-tates, and through them the state governments concerned, that certain things should be done if an examination should determine that there are things to be done on the other side of the international boundary.
I submit that with all these direct interests and responsibilities of the dominion government involved it is essential that there be some general authority which can bring together dominion agencies concerned, whether they be departments of government or agencies of government, and also the provincial government within its own field and others who are concerned with this work.
May I emphasize again that in setting up any such authority I would be very insistent that there should be no attempt in any way to invade the field of provincial jurisdiction under the British North America Act. However, that is not necessary because if this agency is created it can bring the provincial and municipal authorities into a joint plan which would make it possible to deal with the whole broad question without always being uncertain as to how the various rights of the dominion government were to be dealt with when they arose in these areas.
As the minister knows from having seen this area personally, it is going to be a heartbreaking experience for many thousands of people. The exodus of people from the city of Winnipeg, involving some 110,000, is the largest movement of people out of any city in our history. We probably would never have expected that even in war it would have been necessary to contemplate the movement of people out of any city in such numbers as that. That movement, made necessary by the threat which was so gallantly met by the people of Winnipeg and of the surrounding country, has of course imposed tremendous financial obligations on all the people who are affected; and those financial obligations are 

Supply-Resources and Development the minister himself went to see what the problem was. I feel I am not assuming too much when I say confidently that every member of the House of Commons will wish that whatever can be done for these people shall be done just as quickly and as effectively as possible.


Mr. Fulton:: I should like to make a request which concerns most of the subsequent items in the minister's department. Reference has been made to increases in details common to every item. I refer to travelling expenses and sundries. I would ask the minister, before we reach a discussion of details of the estimates, whether it will be possible to have the details I have indicated, including the figures for actual expenditures for the fiscal year ended March 31, so that we may compare what was spent last year with what is being asked for this year.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes; we have the figures showing actual expenditures last year in respect of each item.


Percy Chapman Black: I would ask the minister for information respecting the details in these items. I find provision for editorial costs sufficient to run most of the newspapers in this country. Here are some of the positions:
1 chief, editorial and information division..	$5,280
1 editor, grade	3	
3,9601 editor, grade	2	
3,5401	editor, grade	1	
2,8802	assistant editors: one at $2,580; one at$2,550	
5,130
Then in addition there are other administrative officers, stenographers, clerks and so on. Most of these positions are new and I think the committee is entitled to an explanation.


Mr. Graydon:: With all these editors it looks like a newspaper office.


Robert Henry Winters: By way of general explanation to the hon. member for Cumberland I would say that this department results from the reconstitution of two other departments and naturally in the reshuffle many of the positions went with one or another department, while some new positions had to be set up as are shown in the estimates at this time. If the hon. member has any particular item in mind I shall be pleased to explain it.


Percy Chapman Black: Does the minister state that all these editors are necessary?


Robert Henry Winters: Most of these positions were
in the old department of mines and resources and are now in this department. The editorial staff is considered necessary for the editing of the many publications got out by the department. For example, the parks branch 
and the forestry branch issue many publications which are considered to be in the public interest.


Mr. Noseworthy:: Could the minister make
a statement with regard to the original wartime houses that were turned over to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation? What is the average amount per house that has been spent to make these houses permanent? What number has been sold and what number remains unsold? What price is being asked for those still unsold?


Robert Henry Winters: If the hon. member has no
objection I should like to deal with those questions when we are discussing the item on housing. There are two items dealing with housing, one covering loans and investments, and then there is another direct vote.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I notice from the details that there is a new position, director of administration. Is that a transfer from one department to the other?


Robert Henry Winters: That is simply a change in
title; it is not a new position.


Edmund Davie Fulton: How many publications were
issued by the department last year?


Robert Henry Winters: I do not have the exact figure, but I am informed it is something over 100.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Would that be the total number of publications or would there be magazines going out every month?


Robert Henry Winters: One hundred different publications. We issue technical data from time to time on research matters, and then the parks and forestry divisions and national museum put out publications dealing with a wide variety of subjects. In all they total up to at least 100 publications.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Would it be possible between
now and the time we conclude with these estimates for the minister to furnish a list of the publications put out in the last fiscal year?


Robert Henry Winters: I will undertake to get that
information. If I cannot have it by the time these estimates are concluded I shall send it to the hon. member.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The total travelling expenses for this department are $309,000, with $7,000 for the administration section. Could the minister give us the details of that item of $7,000?


Robert Henry Winters: That would cover the travelling expenses of the minister, of the parliamentary assistant, of the deputy minister, of the secretaries and of everyone that would come under this general administration vote.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: How much of that $7,000 was spent last year?


Robert Henry Winters: The total amount spent last
year was $12,982.61.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: You overran your vote last
year by $5,000, nearly double?


Robert Henry Winters: It is difficult to sort these out because three departments have resulted from two old ones.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Your vote last year was
$7,000, and $12,982 was spent.


Robert Henry Winters: If you prorated it for last
year the amount relating to the Department of Mines and Resources would be $7,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I understood the minister to
say that some of this was for travelling expenses of the parliamentary assistant. I have no grudge against parliamentary assistants but I am concerned about their technical position. I would point out that item 178 provides for additional salaries for the parliamentary assistants and it goes to the length of stating that they can get this money notwithstanding the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act and the Senate and House of Commons Act, and so on. In the one experience I had of travelling on government business when I was sent over to the United Nations an order in council was necessary so that my expenses could be paid.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: You are sitting with the
opposition.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I imagine other hon. members have had the same experience. I would not want the parliamentary assistants to lose their seats because they are getting money that they should not be getting. I might want them to lose their seats for other reasons.


Robert Henry Winters: The travelling expenses of the parliamentary assistant come within this administration vote.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I will not pursue it much further, although I may seek information from different sources, from the Auditor General for example. I am simply wondering why it is that the salaries of the parliamentary assistants must be provided for Ijy a special item so that they will not lose their right to be members of parliament by accepting this money. Why is it, when a member is sent on a trip on government business, that there has to be an order in council to make sure that he can get the money without losing his seat in parliament, and yet here expense money can be paid without any such provision being made?


Howard Charles Green: Why was it necessary to increase the staff for departmental administration from 93 to 122? When there were additional departments established last year we understood
3075
Supply-Resources and Development it would mean each of the new departments would be smaller. Here we have an increase from 93 to 122.


Robert Henry Winters: A number of people were brought under administration who previously were in other branches of the department or in the departments that were split up to form this department. Here again it is very difficult to compare directly. What we have tried to do is to make the best breakdown we can for 1949-50 and show against it the number of people employed for 1950-51.


Mr. White (Middlesex East):: Mr. Chairman, the discussion has ranged all the way from national historic sites to iron mining and back again. There are one or two observations I should like to make as a result of the remarks of the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe. I refer to the enormous waste of our forest resources by forest fires. In the province of Ontario if I do some damage when driving my motorcar I am held liable for it. It would seem to me that more thorough investigation of forest fires should be carried out, and where it is possible to fix the blame the person responsible for the damage should be made to pay for it. There would not be as much carelessness in starting fires or careless use of inflammable materials causing this great loss throughout the nation. I also think a greater amount of research and investigation should be carried on as to insects and fungus diseases attacking our forests. May I say that a celebration is to be held this summer at what was once known as Fairfield village in southwestern Ontario, which is now a national historic site. It is planned that the President of the United States, the Prime Minister of Canada and other dignitaries will be present to commemorate Fairfield village. I should also like to mention the name of a former member of the house, John R. Mac-Nicol, who was most interested in Fairfield village and devoted a lot of time and work to it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Development services branch-
Water resources division -
360.	Water resources division, including the administration of the dominion water power and irrigation acts, and including grant of $350 to the international executive council, world power conference, $541,766.
Mr. Lennard:: Some time during the discussion of the estimates I wish to raise the question of the serious erosion taking place along the shores of the great lakes. I rise now to ask the minister whether it comes under his department or that of the Minister of Public Works.
3076	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development


Robert Henry Winters: It does not come under the jurisdiction of this department. As I understand it, that is a matter for public works.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to ask the minister whether the administration of the Dominion Water Power Act and that of the Irrigation Act come under his department.


Robert Henry Winters: They do.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Section 11 of the Dominion Water Power Act states:
All investigations and surveys and all undertakings shall, subject to the control of the minister, and for the purposes of this act, be under the direction of a duly qualified officer to be designated the "director of water power."
That is in the revised statutes of 1927. It is possible there has been an amendment to the title since then but I could not find it. Is that the name under which that officer is still known or is there a change in it?


Robert Henry Winters: He is known now as chief of the water resources division.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Then he is the man who is No. 1 in the details of this item at page 247.


Robert Henry Winters: That is correct.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is he a member of the Fraser river basin board, or is there anyone from this branch on that board?


Robert Henry Winters: It is either he or one of his staff.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Mr. Chairman, the Fraser river basin board was appointed after the Fraser river flood of 1948. From time to time we have asked questions in the house as to the progress being made by the board. The latest report I have was sent to me in a letter dated May 12 by the Minister of Public Works. The report was dated March 8, 1950, but it is entirely an interim report. At this stage I will not weary the committee with any of the details but I will say that it is entirely an interim report. Although the board has been constituted now for a year and a half it makes it clear that it is unable to make any specific recommendations. The work has not progressed to that extent. From time to time I have had conversations about this matter with the Minister of Public Works, a member of whose staff is also on the board.
I think I would be fair in saying as a result of those conversations that it appears -and I think it is borne out by the fact that we have not got any further than the stage of an interim report so far-that no department of the federal government has taken this matter completely under its wing to push it along so far as the dominion is concerned. Would not the minister consider


it appropriate, since the water resources division is under this department-and I am not in any sense trying to cast aspersions on any other department-that the federal side of the Fraser river basin board be placed squarely under his department and that he be given charge of the matter in so far as the federal interest is concerned?


Robert Henry Winters: The Minister of Public Works now has the responsibility for federal operation in that field. I am sure he and I can discuss the point raised by my hon. friend and give it consideration.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I hope the minister will do that. I should like to make one other observation in this connection. As I say, I am genuinely not trying to raise an issue for the sake of making difficulty. I think that if progress is to be made in this matter it might more properly come under the Department of Resources and Development. I do not want to take up too much time in discussing floods or the possibilities of floods in British Columbia when there are at the present time floods and other disasters in other parts of the country. I will not go any further at the present time than to say this. The possibility of floods in the Fraser river system in British Columbia is still present at this moment, and has been causing a great deal of concern to those who remember what happened only two years ago. The suggestion put forward in connection with flood control for the future is that a survey be made of the whole river system, which in this case is entirely within Canada, with a view to putting up dams or reservoirs at the headwaters and source lakes of the system, and that the whole projeot be carried out having in mind the possibility of developing a joint flood control, irrigation and power development scheme.
All these aspects are covered in this interim report, and for that reason I say that if this aspect is to be put forward particularly the matter which would fall more properly under the Department of Resources and Development, working in conjunction with the provincial authorities, might then become a matter for the Department of Public Works. So I I hope the minister will have those conversations with the Minister of Public Works, and that if the project is transferred from one department to the other he will take a personal interest in it, since he has an official working on it, and try to get the survey speeded up and a recommendation made so that work may commence.


Mr. Argue:: I want to ask just a short question for the sake of information. Could the minister inform the committee whether

under this vote any surveys are being conducted in Saskatchewan with respect to irrigation development, and just what is the division of work and responsibility between his department and the Department of Agriculture, under item No. 40?


Robert Henry Winters: No work is being carried on under this vote in Saskatchewan in connection with irrigation. The only work carried on under this vote is stream measurement. As between this department and the Department of Agriculture, if a project is primarily one of irrigation it comes within the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture. If it is primarily a matter of power development it would fall within the jurisdiction of this department.


Mr. Catherwood:: Under this item I see an amount of $121,200 for field surveys. Would the minister tell us just where this work is being done?


Louis-René Beaudoin: We are now discussing item No. 360. I believe the hon. member's question would come more properly under item 361.


Robert Henry Winters: This item is to provide for operations in six district offices based at Vancouver, Calgary, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and Halifax, with nine sub-offices from which some fifty field engineers are engaged upon field hydrometric work throughout the year. These men travel almost continuously establishing and maintaining gauging stations, making measurements, and so forth. It applies in all provinces of Canada.


A. Earl Catherwood: In connection with this Columbia river watershed, I believe the minister who was in charge of the Department of Mines and Resources last year told us it would take two years to complete this work. I believe some $1,125,000 has been spent already. Can the minister say whether this work will be completed this year?


Robert Henry Winters: That comes under the next item. Am I to understand that we have completed item 360?


A. Earl Catherwood: I thought the chairman said we were on item 361.


The Chairman:: No; I said the question asked by the hon. member should have been asked on item 361.


John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ask a question referring to the prairie provinces water board. I understand the controller of the dominion water power bureau, which comes under this department, is one of the two federal representatives on this board. Last year we were told there were meetings of this board with representatives of the govern-55946-195J
Supply-Resources and Development ments of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba in reference to the possibilities and results of the diversion of the waters of the Saskatchewan, particularly at a point near Elbow, Saskatchewan. I should like to ascertain whether this board is meeting, how many meetings it held last year, and what arrangements if any have been entered into with the representatives of the western provinces as to the diversion of some of the waters of the Saskatchewan in order to establish irrigation or power projects on that river.


Robert Henry Winters: When this matter was dealt with last year I believe I informed the hon. member for Lake Centre that it is being handled by the Department of Agriculture, since it is primarily an irrigation problem. It is true that people from my department serve on that board, but it is subject to call by Mr. Thomson, who is an officer of P.F.R.A.


John George Diefenbaker: How many members
make up the board, and how many are from your department?


Robert Henry Winters: I believe there are two from the Department of Resources and Development. I shall be glad to give my hon. friend the full composition of the board later; I do not have it here at the moment. I now understand from the Minister of Agriculture, who is in the chamber, that the board is composed of five members.


John George Diefenbaker: And has this board
arrived at any agreements or arrangements with the provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, or either of them, in regard to the diversion of water?


James Garfield Gardiner: If I may say a word, I
think it would be better to ask that question when my estimates are before the committee, because I will have all the information available at that time. There have been meetings and discussions as to the amount of water that might be permitted to go from one province to another, but I will have all that information when my estimates came up. There are five members on the board, and the chairman is Mr. L. B. Thomson, director of P.F.R.A. work. There is a representative from each of the three provinces and one from the Department of Resources and Development. The board meets from time to time and relies upon information such as that mentioned a few moments ago, concerning streams which are measured and have been measured for a number of years by the department concerned. Those measurements are matters of record with the P.F.R.A. at Regina.

Supply-Resources and Development


John George Diefenbaker: As long as it is clearly understood that when we get to P.F.R.A. we will not be met again with the argument that this board is under the Department of Resources and Development.


Robert Henry Winters: I think that has been made clear.


John George Diefenbaker: Then wiho has responsibility for the administration of this board, the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Resources and Development?


Robert Henry Winters: The Department of Agriculture.


John George Diefenbaker: Has it been transferred to the Department of Agriculture?


James Garfield Gardiner: It was never anywhere else.


Robert Henry Winters: The minister is quite right; it was never anywhere else.


John George Diefenbaker: It is right in the report of the Department of Mines and Resources as being under the charge of the Minister of Mines and Resources. As a matter of fact, it cannot be in the Department of Agriculture because it is in the annual report of the Department of Mines and Resources.


Robert Henry Winters: That may be. Each department may report its operations as a contributor to that board since they have representation on that board.


Gordon Graydon: Is Mr. Howe in there somewhere?


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


John George Diefenbaker: How many meetings of this board were held in 1949?


James Garfield Gardiner: The proper time to have that question answered is on my estimates. There have been two or three that I know of, but I am not going to give that as an answer to the question. The records are in our department and they will be here when we are considering our estimates. I do not think, however, that I should try to answer that question on the estimates of the Department of Resources and Development.


John George Diefenbaker: I quite agree with that statement. What has surprised me is that the minister came into it at all; because this board is set up under the department of the minister whose estimates are now before the committee.


James Garfield Gardiner: No, it is not. You are wrong.


John George Diefenbaker: It operates under that department. In that report of 1948-49 that is made clear in these words:
The controller of the bureau acts as one of the two dominion representatives on this board which

was organized during the year to study the interprovincial waterway problems of the prairie provinces. Meetings were held at Regina in November and February.


Robert Henry Winters: That of course just means, as I understand it-and I think this is correct -that each department operates within its own jurisdiction and makes what contribution it can to the board. But as the Minister of Agriculture has said, the board operates under Mr. Thomson who is a member of the P.F.R.A. committee.


James Garfield Gardiner: Our representative is the chairman.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: What contribution does the Department of Resources and Development make to this board? It has a representative on it. There are quite a few expenditures in connection with it from this department. What do the minister's officials do, and what contribution does his department make to this board to justify the expenditure that is charged under the estimates by this department?


Robert Henry Winters: We attempt to provide technical assistance and advice to the board as required.


John George Diefenbaker: Has any technical assistance been given? If so, what? This matter of irrigation plans in Saskatchewan is one which it is difficult to get to the bottom of. I want to know as much as I can before the Minister of Agriculture comes along. The people in the province of Saskatchewan are asking what is being done. With the bifurcation of authority and responsibility between the department of the minister whose estimates are now before the committee and the Department of Agriculture, it is difficult to get any information. I ask the minister this question. How much is the anticipated expenditure by his department in respect of this board during the coming year?


Robert Henry Winters: The only expenditure charged against this department for the work of that board would be the travelling expenses of the officials concerned.


John George Diefenbaker: Just travelling expenses?


Robert Henry Winters: Just travelling expenses.


John George Diefenbaker: Nothing else?


Robert Henry Winters: Nothing else.


John George Diefenbaker: Who are the technicians? What technicians are attached to it?


Robert Henry Winters: You mean the names of the officials from this department on that board?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Marr, chief of the water resources division; and Mr. Hoover, who is the department representative in the Calgary office.


Edmund Davie Fulton: To go back to the matter of the British Columbia board which I was referring to before, under the Dominion Water Power Act, section 10, subsection 4:
The minister may enter into co-operative agreements with the authorities of any of the provinces for the making of stream measurements, the carrying on of investigations, and the collection and publication of data respecting water and power resources, and the best methods of utilizing the same.
Apart from this Fraser river basin board to which reference has been made, have any studies been carried on by this department under that section in so far as British Columbia is concerned? If so, what were the reports? Where are they available? How can one get hold of them?


Robert Henry Winters: Stream measurements are
made of all the important streams in British Columbia. The results of the surveys are available in the department office in Vancouver. They are published from time to time.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What I am wondering is whether they cover the same information as is now being covered by this board; because the board makes it a large task, they have to make the surveys and get the information necessary before any work can be started. I have been protesting the length of time it is taking to get this work going. That is why I am wondering how complete any previous work and surveys may have been under that section.


Robert Henry Winters: By and large, the measurements of streams just cover water flow and that sort of thing. This is a broader survey that is dealt with, as my hon. friend will find under the Department of Public Works vote 351, which is for the Fraser river, "50 per cent of cost of investigations to be carried out by the dominion-provincial board Fraser river basin".


Edmund Davie Fulton: I know that. As I said earlier this afternoon, I think that the Minister of Resources and Development should take a personal interest in the matter. I find that under the Dominion Water Power Act there is provision for these joint surveys to be made with provincial authorities, and I am asking the minister to what extent those surveys were made in the past. I cannot quite understand why it has taken all this time since the Fraser river basin board was set up. All we have at the moment is merely an interim
Supply-Resources and Development report. I am asking the minister to what extent these joint surveys were made in the past and why it is necessary that there should be such great delay now.


Robert Henry Winters: This is a much broader survey.
The normal surveys in the past, under the act to which my hon. friend refers, were usually confined to measurements of stream flow.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The minister said that he will follow the matter up with the Department of Public Works, so I will not press it now except to ask him if he can give me the names and positions of the officials from his department who are members of that board.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes. I will get that information, Mr. Chairman, and send it to the hon. member.


William Joseph Browne: Has the
department any official permanently located in Newfoundland?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, we have.


William Joseph Browne: Will you give me the name of that official and tell me where he is located?


Robert Henry Winters: There is an official in Newfoundland. His name is Mr. J. E. Peters.


William Joseph Browne: Situated in St. John's?


Robert Henry Winters: In St. John's, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Development services branch-
361.	To provide for studies and surveys of the Columbia river watershed in Canada, $380,000.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I was shocked this morning to hear from the Minister of Resources and Development that he was not quite certain whether the discovery of the Columbia was of national significance. 1 am pleased to see that from the point of view of development the minister considers it of national significance, although I cannot follow his reasoning in that respect.


Robert Henry Winters: No, Mr. Chairman; I said the discovery of the river was of the greatest national significance but that the historical significance was something to be determined by the national historic sites and monuments board.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think the minister is splitting hairs, but I am pleased to see that he considers the development of the Columbia of national significance, by this vote 361, to provide for studies and surveys of the Columbia river watershed in Canada. This item is a matter of great interest to my constituents, because the whole of my constituency lies within the Columbia river basin. They have

Supply-Resources and Development been interested in these surveys and studies while they have been in progress since 1945, I think.
Can the minister give the committee a statement as to the progress made to date in connection with these studies, and the possible time it will take to complete them? Can he assure the committee that when the final development takes place on the Columbia we will not do as was done when the Grand Coulee dam was built, and surrender a treaty right granted to us under article II of the Oregon treaty, 1846, without any protest whatever from any department of this government? When the United States government built the Grand Coulee dam on the Columbia river in contravention of article II of the Oregon treaty, which provided navigation in perpetuity to the sea for Canadian residents on the Columbia river, there was no protest from the Canadian government.
In addition, will the minister tell the committee what notice will be given to the people of Canada, and the people directly concerned, with respect to hearings by the international joint commission before developments take place? Can some further publicity be given in the press for the information of the Canadian people regarding these most interesting surveys and studies in relation to, shall I say, the Garden of Eden of Canada?


Robert Henry Winters: To answer the last question first, the international joint commission operates under my colleague, the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and I would not like to attempt to answer the question as to how much notice can be given. I understand that an attempt is made to give adequate notice.
The total amount of work done so far since 1944 in connection with this work is as follows: The amount of $1,176,544.45 has been expended by the government of Canada on the investigations of the Columbia river. It is not known how long it will take to complete this work because of the uncertainties entailed, as one goes along with the surveys; but it would appear that on a rough guess it will take about five years to complete the field work necessary, and that there will be a further considerable amount on money required over that period of years.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I wish to associate myself with what has been said by the hon. member for Kootenay West. He and I share the river. My part of it lies between the two that go through his. It is a matter of great concern and urgency to the people out there if for no other reason than that, at the present time, for one thing, there is a lot of bank erosion caused by the flood waters of the river. I would hope

that the field work might be done in even less than five years. I simply support the hon. member in his request that it be proceeded with as rapidly as possible.


A. Earl Catherwood: We have not been given a breakdown of the details. Can the minister give the details of this expenditure?


Robert Henry Winters: I presume what my hon. friend wants is a breakdown of $380,000. It is broken down as follows: river investigations, $50,200; collection of stream flow data, $29,075; geological investigations, $4,000; topographical surveys, $84,000; meteorological surveys, $3,800; soil surveys, $3,500; groundwater surveys, $3,860; damsite investigations, $106,985; bathymetric surveys, $21,000; supervision and office, $48,580; design and estimates, $25,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
362.	Lake of the Woods control board, $12,480.
Clayton Wesley Hodgson: What is the function of this
board?


Robert Henry Winters: The board is set up to exercise the responsibility for regulating lake levels in accordance with the treaty and protocol between Canada and the United States, and concurrent legislation with the province of Ontario and the tripartite agreement between Canada, Ontario and Manitoba.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
364.	To provide for excavation of a flood channel at Dalles rapids in Winnipeg river in Ontario to reduce flooding of riparian property affected by regulation under the Lake of the Woods Control Board Act (revote), $60,000.
A. Earl Catherwood: There is a large reduction in this proposed expenditure. Is it because of the completion of the channel? What is the situation in this area with regard to the previous expenditure of $170,000?


Robert Henry Winters: This amount of $60,000 will complete the contract.


Harry Oliver White: Are these properties along the river privately owned?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes-privately owned.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Wildlife division-
365.	Wildlife resources conservation and development, including administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act, $300,000.
William Joseph Browne: Can the
minister tell me whether there has been any investigation of wildlife in Newfoundland?


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member means bird life?


William Joseph Browne: Yes, not night life.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes; there is an officer in Newfoundland to carry out investigations of wildlife.


William Joseph Browne: Has he a
staff?


Robert Henry Winters: He has not yet acquired a staff. Up to date his time has been largely spent in travelling to gather information.


William Joseph Browne: Could I be given his name?


Robert Henry Winters: Would the hon. member let it go for the time being and I shall pass the information on to him.


William Joseph Browne: Yes.


Edmund Davie Fulton: This is one of the very important items in the estimates of this department. I am sure the minister also feels that it is important. The actual division between the federal authority and the provincial authority under this Migratory Birds Convention Act is a matter which I for one have never been able to get clearly in my mind. If it will not take too long I hope that when the minister deals with this item he will give us a brief outline of the division.
As I understand-I am referring particularly to the ducks and geese which are some of the migratory birds referred to in the act-one of the major difficulties is the fact that these birds are shot in the United States and in Mexico all the way up and down the flyways which they follow on their various migrations. Some of us in the province from which I come would like to see consideration given to the possibility of a restricted season for at least a year or two. I am not saying it is a firm opinion, but our people feel the possibility should be examined because a lessening of the number of ducks and geese is very noticeable. Naturally our game branch would not contemplate such a thing unless some similar or reciprocal arrangement could be made with the Mexican and American authorities, and those in other countries concerned. I saw figures recently in one of the newspapers of this country indicating that the number of ducks on this continent has gone down to an estimated 47 million when, at one time, I believe there were hundreds of millions. There appears to be a constant increase in the number of those sportsmen who take pleasure in this sport, probably the finest of all sports.
Measuring this against the decline in the number of birds, a decline which I believe was arrested for a while but has since begun to go on the downgrade again, one can see the seriousness of the problem. I have mentioned only one aspect of the matter. It is
Supply-Resources and Development not in any sense a recommendation, but I do know consideration has been given to the question whether or not it is desirable or necessary to declare a closed season.
Would the minister give his views in the matter, and tell us our relationship to the American and Mexican authorities in this sort of matter, and what has been proposed between the authorities in the dominion and the provinces in this connection?


William Gourlay Blair: I should like to add to what has been said by the hon. member for Kamloops, and make special reference to the season. Last year the season was set back from September 15 to October 15. In eastern Ontario this meant that all local ducks had departed by that time. The season was too late for the northern ducks coming in, with the result that sportsmen in eastern Ontario who were interested in duck hunting enjoyed practically no shooting.
As a matter of fact I was one of the duck hunters who went out on October 15. I went to a place where normally we had obtained a good bag. May I add that I believe the sportsmen adhered to the restrictions as to the number they should have shot either in one day or in a season. There were no ducks. Later in the season there was no possibility of getting northern ducks.
Another point is this-and I am glad the hon. member for Kamloops has mentioned it -that in this section of the country we are in some places on the flight of the ducks flying down the Atlantic seaboard. We read about ducks along the Atlantic seaboard being destroyed by patches of oil, and that sort of thing. I have always suspected that in Canada we are in the position of raising ducks, but that we do not get a chance to shoot them. We are raising them for somebody else to shoot.
I am not suggesting that we should have a wholesale slaughter of ducks, but I do feel that the ducks nest in Canada. The experience last year certainly showed that there was no possibility in eastern Canada of duck shooting. The other point is that when they fly into the United States they are on the wing and have banded together so that the American sportsmen can follow them all the way down through the United States to the gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean area. It is estimated that last year there were more than two million duck hunters in the United States.
I should like to see preservation of the duck population in this country, and I believe we should do everything possible to maintain it. At the same time our position seems foolish when it appears that we are making an attempt to preserve in this country a duck
3082	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Supply-Resources and Development population which flies into the United States. While they may make regulations, I should like to learn from the minister if those regulations are being observed by the other signatories to the Migratory Birds Convention Act.
As the hon. member for Kamloops has asked, are the terms of the convention being carried out in Cuba, Mexico, the islands of the Caribbean, or the American states bordering the gulf of Mexico? This particular type of wild fowl will never change because it has always nested in Canada. I believe stronger pressure should be put on those countries, and especially the United States, if we are going to preserve the sport of duck hunting-and it is a king's sport. There is not a person who gets it into his blood who does not want to get out in the fall of the year to enjoy duck hunting. We are now in the position where we raise the ducks which go down the flyways and are slaughtered on the other side.


Mr. Smiih (Calgary West):: When the
minister replies I hope he will tell us about the mechanics of fixing the open season. I am a charter member of the Calgary fish and game association which, incidentally, is easily the largest association of its kind in Canada. Also I have been closely associated with Ducks Unlimited. We find from various sources much criticism which, in our area, is quite unwarranted. Of course it may be a bad thing to provide water, where there was no water before, where ducks may breed. Then we hear complaints from farmers who live in the neighbouring areas to the effect that the ducks have destroyed their crops.
Lest anyone think that that is nonsense, I know personally that a decent-sized flock of ducks-and by that I mean many thousands -will in one night destroy a quarter section of wheat. So that the complaint is a real one. The difficulty is not so much in what they eat, but in what they destroy with swathed grain. In the swathed grain the duck tramps up and down, eating only a small part of what it destroys. However, I imagine that is a provincial matter.
In other words I believe that under any and all regulations the provinces have the right to issue a special licence to shoot when destruction of grain is imminent. Upon whom does the department rely? I admit that there are different open seasons in different parts of Canada, depending upon the different flyways and the climate in the various areas. How does the government arrange with the United States, for example, that we in Alberta shall have open season on ducks between September 15 and November
[Mr. Blair.l
15? Is that entirely within our own authority? I think probably it may be, although I do not know.
Out in Alberta we have the experience where no duck is worth shooting on September 15. It is too small and too thin. At that time as a rule they have not begun to eat grain, and we know that the grain-fed duck is the only duck worth eating. When I refer to grain I am referring to many types of grain sown by man.
We used to have it so that the season closed at the end of November. Last year we had a heavy frost which closed all the water in Alberta, so that the ducks went down to our friends in the United States and, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Lanark, they were all gone before anyone had an opportunity to do any shooting. Last fall I saw them on the beautiful fine days, but I found you needed a much stronger weapon to reach them than the gun I had, which was one of the best of those made in England.
I wonder if there could not be a movable feature in setting the end of the season? Last year I believe the season was closed on November 15, but the frost came along before that and we had no shooting. In other years the best shooting has been in the last fifteen days of November. I should hope it would be practical to provide in the regulations a fixed time for opening, but also possible to have a movable date for the close of the season depending on the type of weather that was prevailing. I do not think there would be any objection with regard to the opening date because no sportsman wants to take a bird that is thin and immature, but it is different with regard to the closing dates. These dates could vary in different parts of the country because it is logical that the climatic conditions differ along the border, and the border between Canada and the United States is a long one.
It is important that inquiry be made as to whether other people are observing the rules they have agreed to observe. I do not know what has happened in Mexico recently, but I know up until two years ago shooting for the market was still going on. Now that we have a convention with them it may be that they are carrying out their undertaking much better than they used to. I wish the minister would consider my suggestions, particularly with regard to the end of the season. I know certain people will disagree with me, but my own view is that ample time should be allowed before the season is opened to permit the birds to be fully grown. Then

the local authorities should be able to make such regulations as are necessary to protect farmers' crops in the interval.


Mr. Coldwell:: In dealing with migratory birds, has consideration been given to paying compensation for the very thing mentioned by the hon. member for Calgary West? Those of us who have lived in the country for a long time have seen crops of wheat, and particularly crops of barley, utterly destroyed by flocks of ducks. Many people enjoy duck shooting but very few farmers whose crops are ruined by ducks or geese feel kindly disposed toward either the birds or the hunters. Some thought should be given to finding ways and means of compensating farmers for their losses.
I am not suggesting that Canada alone should do this as this is an international problem. As has been pointed out by the hon. member for Calgary West and the hon. member for Lanark, most of the ducks raised in Canada are shot south of the line. Whether they are shot in the United States, in Mexico or elsewhere does not matter, but certainly some consideration should be given to providing compensation for these farmers. This destruction occurs mainly when the ducks are migrating from the north to the south.
I agree with what the hon. member for Calgary West has said about ducks being immature in September. As a matter of fact, they require some grain to become fleshy or palatable. Ducks that come down from the north often have a strong Ashy flavour. I do not want to see these birds suffer the fate of the migratory pigeon which used to come down in thousands but has been extinct for a number of years, but I think we have to consider both the person who enjoys shooting and the farmer who loses his crops because of these migratory birds.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am in entire sympathy with the hon. member for Rose-town-Biggar but may I say that the fish and game association to which I belong has already done a great deal along that line.


Major James William Coldwell: I know that some organizations do that.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Will the minister take into
consideration complaints similar to those raised by the hon. members for Lanark and Calgary West in connection with geese and brant? The complaints in this connection are the same as those in connection with ducks.


Mr. Huffman:: I am in accord with what the hon. member for Calgary West has stated with respect to the closing dates of a season. Representations have been made to me on behalf of hunters along the shores of lake
Supply-Resources and Development Erie. In an adjacent area a number of game preserves are registered with the department and no shooting is permitted within a half mile of those preserves. These preserves are in the marshy areas and the ducks are fed there. But the ducks are chased from one preserve to another, the shooting taking place in between. Many people do not have a great deal of time to spend in duck shooting and the representations that have been made to me have been that they would like to be able to shoot over baited areas and the bag limit striotly enforced. I would ask the minister to give this request consideration. They would prefer to have the bag limit examined and carefully taken care of.


William Gourlay Blair: Before the minister replies, I should like to point out that there is also the question of geese. We know the good work that was done by Jack Miner at his place near Windsor so far as the preservation of geese is concerned. I should like to call the attention of the minister to a situation that existed along the Ottawa river in Renfrew county this spring. Geese came there and there was no previous sanctuary. I understand that the province of Ontario gave some money and possibly there was a dominion grant. Apparently, however, there was not sufficient money to buy enough grain to feed the geese. Some arrangements should be made. I do not know whether there is any idea of establishing a sanctuary but apparently a farmer in the district gave all the grain he could possibly afford to give to feed the geese. He received some small help from the province and I think from the dominion but it was not sufficient. The game wardens were attempting to drive the geese off the grounds before they were ready to go north where the lakes were still frozen. If that situation should develop again I think we should do everything possible to preserve the wild geese together with the ducks because I think wild geese are in the same class as other migratory fowl.


Robert Henry Winters: At the outset may I say to my hon. friend for St. John's West that the name of the wildlife officer in Newfoundland is G. L. M. Tuck. The matter of the seasons for shooting wildlife is rather complicated. There is an international convention between the United States and Canada, and there are conventions between the United States and Mexico. From time to time we have meetings of our wildlife officers with the provincial wildlife authorities to which we invite people from the United States and Mexico in an effort to co-ordinate the over-all policy as to shooting ducks and other migratory waterfowl. The provinces have their own game legislation and regulations. In

Supply-Resources and Development general practice once the birds are within a province they are the responsibility of that province. Any change that seems to be indicated in the season would have to be undertaken only at the request of the province concerned.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You fix that. The province does not do it.


Robert Henry Winters: We fix it but in all cases it is fixed as a result of conferences with the provinces. A survey is continually being carried on as to the habits of ducks, trends in population, reproductive success in Canada, feeding habits and other factors which might have a bearing on the season. These factors are under continual survey, and when and as changes in the seasons are indicated steps are taken to that end. The officials of the department feel that vis-a-vis the United States the hunters of Canada individually enjoy more privileges than do their opposite numbers. The question of compensation for damage is of course a very difficult problem. Many times ducks light on farmers' lands and destroy crops. The farmer may take compassion on the ducks and perhaps put out some feed. Some people feel that induces the ducks to come back there another year whereas if some other steps were taken to discourage the ducks from coming back the destruction might be avoided.
The fact of the matter is that once the ducks are in the province the problem is a provincial one and compensation must be regarded in that light. Permission is normally given to shoot ducks when they become destructive, or to persuade them to go away by some other means. There was the problem in Renfrew county this year to which the hon. member for Lanark referred. The provincial and federal governments put up equal amounts of money for feed. It was reported that there were a large number of geese in the area in a very distressed condition. We sent officials there who reported that there was a sizeable number of geese but not nearly as many as had been reported. We worked in close co-operation with the provincial authorities. We told them that if in their judgment they thought certain action needed to be taken we would co-operate with them to that end. Their officials and ours felt that the best arrangement was not to provide feed to the point where the geese would be encouraged to come back next year to the same area and destroy crops again. The matter is under continual survey, and perhaps some other means can be taken another year.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What is the information of the department as to the present trend in the duck population? I referred to this article which

said that it had fallen substantially in the last couple of years. I think the figure given was 47 million, and it was suggested-and I think there is good ground for it-that that is getting dangerously low. What is the information in the department on that question?


Arthur Leroy Smith: While that is being looked up I should like to ask the minister a simple question. Is it your statement that if the province of Alberta in the fall of 1950 asked you to postpone or advance the closing date of the duck season your department would immediately agree?


Robert Henry Winters: No, I said that if the province of Alberta, in this case, asked us to change the season we would certainly give the matter consideration but that no change would be put into effect unless a request came from the province.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Let us get this straight. I am not being critical.


Robert Henry Winters: I know.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I said that the season was a matter that was entirely in your hands, as I understood.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You then said that once the ducks were within the province the season was then fixed only on the recommendation of the province. If what you then said is the fact-and I do not mean that you are not doing the best you can-and a telegram came to your department next fall from the Alberta government recommending the closing of the season on the 15th of November rather than on the first-


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Order. The Gentleman
Usher of the Black Rod is waiting.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


THE ROYAL ASSENT
[Stage Direction]
A message was deliverd by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, the Right Honourable the Deputy Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly the house went up to the Senate chamber.
And being returned:
Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bills:
An act for the relief of Doris Joan Guest Rigg.
An act for the relief of Cora Elizabeth Jamieson Southam.

An act for the relief of Audrey Brenda Holmes Burnett.
An act for the relief of Barbara Edna Brownrigg Johnson.
An act for the relief of Aili Katriina Salokannel Martel.
An act for the relief of Velma Elizabeth Buchanan Lowson.
An act for the relief of Gladys Harriet Hassall Thom.
An act for the relief of Elisabeth Mavis Cann Jousse.
An act for the relief of Eric Lacate,
An act for the relief of Dorothy Margaret May Harris McCormick.
An act for the relief of Sigrid Denston Day.
An act for the relief of Beatrice Campbell McClay.
An act for the relief of Catherine C. Goodrow Rogers.
An act for the relief of Miriam Roberta Weir Caryer.
An act for the relief of Marjorie Frances Murphy Cozzolino.
An act for the relief of Mary Thomson Cadieux.
An act for the relief of Veronica Pearl Faulkner MacKenzie.
An act for the relief of Elizabeth Hampshier Atyon Reilley.
An act for the relief of Sybil Elliott Karr Boulanger.
An act for the relief of Mary Kennedy Dunn Anderson.
An act for the relief of Albert Ernest Curtis.
An act for the relief of Annie Swales Barber.
An act for the relief of Rebecca Catherine Pitts Duquette.
An act for the relief of Edith Mary Stone Ryan.
An act for the relief of Pearl Greenspan Abramo-vitz.
An act for the relief of Harry Rudner.
An act for the relief of Dorothea Joan Lawrence Gamble.
An act for the relief of Walter St. Andre Bawn.
An act for the relief of Alison Hamilton Brown Weldon.
An act for the relief of Hazel May Wilkie MacLeod.
An act for the relief of William Gordon Cas-cadden.
An act for the relief of Romeo Lefebvre.
An act for the relief of Kathleen Veronica Thompson Davidson.
An act for the relief of Joseph Arthur Winsorlow Brisebois.
. An act for the relief of Margaret May Tuck Reicker.
An act for the relief of Mabel Kearley Budgell.
An act for the relief of Zina Sarah Fletcher Tannenbaum.
An act for the relief of Fred Marcus.
An act for the relief of Belva Rubin Bercusson.
An act for the relief of Reginald E. Martin.
An act for the relief of Dora Moore Holland Towers.
An act for the relief of Betty Benditsky Kursner Koberniek.
An act for the relief of Elizabeth Goodman Goldberg.
An act for the relief of Helene Eugenie Hortense Holmes Said.
An act for the relief of Amanda Doris Drachler Segalowitz, otherwise known as Amanda Doris Drachler Selton.
An act for the relief of Florence Druckman Oliver.
An act for the relief of Albert Gedeon Martin.
An act for the relief of Brandel Avrutick Cutler.
An act for the relief of Freda Geraldine Rodgers.
An act for the relief of Hattie May Dawson Wood.
The Royal Assent
An act for the relief of Marie Yvonne Bouchard O'Rourke.
An act for the relief of Ethel Margaret Murphy Watson.
An act for the relief of Clifford Willis Collins.
An act for the relief of Alfred Beatty Harris.
An act for the relief of Claire Jeanne d'Arc Sagala De Montignac.
An act for the relief of Nora Maria De Montignac Des Jardins.
An act for the relief of Rita Annie Wylie Morrow.
An act for the relief of Olga Veleky Stepanovitch.
An act for the relief of Beatrice Norma Sabbath Finestone.
An act for the relief of Adele Kuznetz Paquette.
An act for the relief of Jessie Ferguson Deans McKenzie.
An act for the relief of Daisy Muriel Smallcombe Devaney.
An act for the relief of Stella Burns Herdman Elder.
An act for the relief of Ethel May Alice Turnbull Colligan.
An act for the relief of Effie Irene Collier Newman.
An act for the relief of Phyllis Anne England McNab.
An act for the relief of Martha Jean Brooks Markell.
An act for the relief of Kathleen Zawitkoska Symianick.
An act for the relief of Jeannine Martineau Masse.
An act for the relief of Betty Borman Archam-bault.
An act for the relief of Edwin Dawson.
An act for the relief of Mavis Barker Billingham.
An act for the relief of Roland Gour.
An act for the relief of Margaret Elizabeth Taylor Clarke.
An act for the relief of Sylvia Singer Mepham.
An act for the relief of Mabel Kathleen Baxter Simons.
An act for the relief of Vittoria Minotti Mastrac-chio.
An act for the relief of Dent Harrison.
An act for the relief of Margaret Mahajahla Aitken Schoch.
An act for the relief of Esther Spector Gelfand.
An act for the relief of Sophie Roth Pliss.
An act for the relief of Gertrude Howard McWilliams Rubin.
An act for the relief of Remenia Bertha Duguay Briggs.
An act for the relief of Blanche Naomi Greenlees.
An act for the relief of Leslie William McNally.
An act for the relief of Jacqueline Marie Scully Sirois.
An act for the relief of Phyllis Christina McLeod Daly.
An act for the relief of Winnie Florence Clitheroe DuVal.
An act for the relief of Muriel Elizabeth McCurry Welham.
An act for the relief of Betty Margaret Slinn Metivier.
An act for the relief of Fanny Abramowitch Mergler.
An act for the relief of John Wood.
An act for the relief of Olivia Mary Tipping Morris.
An act for the relief of Mable Veronica Askin Williamson.
An act for the relief of Christine Rachel MacLeod Nicholson.
An act for the relief of Anne Halperin Perel-mutter.
An act for the relief of Phyllis Rochlin Rabino-vitch.

[Stage Direction]
The Royal Assent
An act for the relief of Mary Kaybridge Goul-bourn.
An act for the relief of Muriel Alice Mary West-gate.
An act for the relief of John Elliot Cumming.
An act for the relief of Ethel Bell Lifshitz.
An act for the relief of Martin Matthew Waage-mans.
An act for the relief of Elaine Ruby Cooper Pierre.
An act for the relief of Gertrude Toulch Standard.
An act for the relief of Thomas Gordon Williams.
An act for the relief of Ethel Lerner Baker.
An act for the relief of Robert Earl Skinner.
An act for the relief of Chasia Berger Wolf.
An act for the relief of Henry William Askew.
An act for the relief of Leman Makinson.
An act for the relief of Rose Anna Levesque Kirkland.
An act for the relief of Douglas Barrymore Stone.
An act for the relief of Nancy Doria Evan-Wong Meade.
An act for the relief of Louise Elizabeth Garner Mitchell.
An act for the relief of Vivian Pearl McCrea Gunning.
An act for the relief of George Bruce Lancaster.
An act for the relief of Lillian Soper Pearce Smith.
An act for the relief of Antoinette Carriere Lepine.
An act for the relief of Marjorie Blythe Shore Marriott.
An act for the relief of Norman Harold Lucas.
An act for the relief of Blanche Irene Aurore Schryer Batryn.
An act for the relief of Leah Judith Godfrey Green.
An act for the relief of Phyllis Martin Payne.
An act for the relief of Geraldine Estelle Leduc Brunet.
An act for the relief of John Allen Young.
An act for the relief of Laura Kathleen Potter Stewart.
An act for the relief of Edna Hannah Keene Ley.
An act for the relief of Ada Friedman Mendelsohn.
An act for the relief of Ann Mitchell Rabinovitch.
An act for the relief of Ernest Joseph Poirier.
An act for the relief of Maria De Gregoria Zar-batany.
An act for the relief of Jean Paul Verret.
An act for the relief of Gladys Eileen Hungate Norman.
An act for the relief of Marie-Anne Alice Lalonde Campey.
An act for the relief of Sadye Gasn Blidner.
An act for the relief of Lera Mary Rombough Kirkey.
An act for the relief of Micheline Loranger Major.
An act for the relief of Jane Letitia Hardie Ball.
An act for the relief of Russell Mowbray Meredith.
An act for the relief of Jack Elmhirst Webster.
An act for the relief of Annie Kwiat Maislin.
An act for the relief of Douglas Charles Blair.
An act for the relief of Therese Simonne St. Onge Laurier.
An act for the relief of Carmen Emily Adelle McCoy Jackson.
An act for the relief of Helen Alma Lambert Anderson.
An act for the relief of Bertha Marks Cohen.
An act for the relief of Stella Margaret Rollo McKee.
An act for the relief of Helena Matyla Martyniak.
An act for the relief of Marie Rosanna Emelda (Imelda) Lecomte Bolduc.
An act for the relief of Rose Slosarczyk Bydlinski.
An act for the relief of Helen Meadows Mac-Naughton.
An act for the relief of Walter Kerr Dow.

An act for the relief of Thora Yvonne Easy Weaver.
An act for the relief of Robert Cohen.
An act for the relief of Ruby Gladys Burns Thornhill.
An act for the relief of Joseph Francois Xavier Beland.
An act for the relief of Joseph Neist.
An act for the relief of Harry Goldbloom.
An act for the relief of Winnifred Julia Lester Stockless.
An act for the relief of George Eustorgio Lanzon.
An act for the relief of Laurette Amyot McGroarty.
An act for the relief of Hilda Marie Adeline Bouvier Cardy.
An act for the relief of Reuben Robert Shapiro.
An act for the relief of Mary White Sheppard.
An act for the relief of Ulderic Cadieux.
An act for the relief of Helen Irene Barney Hutchinson.
An act for the relief of Alice Jean Young Gulliver.
An act for the relief of Joseph Lucien Alphonse Martel.
An act for the relief of Georges Emile Bernier.
An act for the relief of Margaret Veronica Quinn Davies.
An act for the relief of Max Gurevitch.
An act for the relief of Romuald Joseph Jean Lamoureux.
An act respecting the purchase by Canadian Pacific Railway Company of shares of the capital stock of the Shawinigan Falls Terminal Railway Company.
An act respecting the Limitholders' Mutual Insurance Company.
An act respecting United Grain Growers Limited.
An act to amend the Canadian Red Cross Society Act.
An act respecting the appointment of Auditors for National Railways.
An act to amend the Manitoba Boundaries Extension Act, 1912, and the Ontario Boundaries Extension Act.
An act to incorporate Ukrainian National Federation of Canada.
An act to amend the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act.
An act to amend the Precious Metals Marking Act,
An act respecting Grants of Public Lands.
An act respecting Crown Lands in the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories.
An act to amend the Excise Tax Act.
An act to amend the Railway Act.
An act to amend the Customs Tariff.
An act to incorporate Alberta Natural Gas Company.
An act to incorporate Prairie Transmission Lines Limited.
An act to incorporate United Security Insurance Company.
An act to incorporate the Apostolic Trustees of the Friars Minor or Franciscans.
An act to incorporate the Canadian Commerce Insurance Company.
An act to incorporate Saskatchewan Mutual Insurance Company.
An act to amend the Customs Act.
An act to amend the Cold Storage Act.
An act to bring the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act into force in Newfoundland.
An act to amend the Criminal Code.
An act to amend the Research Council Act.
An act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1951.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND DEVELOPMENT Wildlife division-
365. Wildlife resources conservation and development, including administration of the Migratory-Birds Convention Act, $300,000.
Clayton Wesley Hodgson: There is quite a large amount for travelling expenses in this item, namely, $22,000. Will the minister give us a resume of what it is?


Robert Henry Winters: There are wildlife officers in every province in Canada. As I explained before, their job is to travel around and get statistical information and secure data on the development of wildlife population, their habits and reproductive possibilities, and so on. In doing so, they accumulate the expense which is shown against this item.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Is the minister sure they are all on government business?


Robert Henry Winters: They are all on government business.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I have not bothered the minister about sundries in other items. There is quite a large sundries account in this item, amounting to $13,000. Can the minister give us an idea of what it is?


Robert Henry Winters: "Sundries" amounting to the total of $13,632 is made up as follows: dominion-provincial wildlife conference, $2,000; motion pictures, $5,000; legal fees, $1,200; commission on fur sales, $1,500; hire .of motor boat in Newfoundland, $2,500; incidentals, $1,432, making a total of $13,632.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Tell us what the motor boat was hired for. It was not for election purposes, was it?


Robert Henry Winters: It certainly would not be so long as this party is in power.
As my hon. friend knows, Newfoundland is the type of country the shore line of which is very hard to get around. Travel between outports must be done by boat, and naturally the amount for boat hire would be considerable.


William Joseph Browne: What does the boat cost per day to hire, and what is its size?


Robert Henry Winters: This is an estimate; it is not an item of past expenditure. It is an estimate of what we might expend during the present fiscal year.
Supply-Resources and Development


Edmund Davie Fulton: When the committee rose just before six o'clock the minister had not an opportunity to answer the question as to the information of the department on the trend in the population of ducks and geese; nor had he an opportunity to make reference to the question which was asked before as to the relation, under this Migratory Birds Convention Act, with such countries as Mexico and the other countries of the central and Caribbean area where these birds spend the winter, and where it has been suggested considerable slaughter is taking place.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, I think I explained the latter part of the question. Under the Migratory Birds Convention Act we have an understanding with the United States, and they in turn have understandings or agreements with Mexico and I believe with other countries. The only agreement we have is the one with the United States.
As to trends in population, according to detailed information I have, the annual waterfowl inventory, which is carried out throughout North America each January when waterfowl are concentrated on the wintering grounds, indicates that there has been a reduction in the number of waterfowl from year to year.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Has the minister an estimated figure of the present population on this continent?


Robert Henry Winters: There is no estimated figure before me now. I understand we have a figure that can be obtained if my hon. friend would be satisfied to have me send it to him.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Thank you. Did I understand the minister to say we have no direct relation with the countries of the Caribbean? Has he any knowledge of the sort of agreement that they and the United States have, and is it the sort of agreement we have with the United States? In other words, if we have regulations and laws, as we have, with respect to closed seasons and protective measures and so on, which obviously operate to the benefit of the sportsman not only of Canada but of the United States and other countries as well, do those arrangements that we have with the United States give us a fair reciprocity? Has the minister any knowledge of that situation?


Robert Henry Winters: I have no detailed knowledge of the relationships between the United States and Mexico and other countries. We do have contacts, for example, with Mexico. We invite them to our conventions, and exchange ideas with them. The United States is doing a considerable amount of good work with
3088	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development these countries in an effort to bring their regulations into line with what is mutually acceptable to our two countries.


Agar Rodney Adamson: While this item on wildlife resources conservation deals to a degree with birds, I want to mention something which should be brought to the attention of the committee and of the minister particularly, namely, the question of predator control. The decimation of our wildlife, owing to predators, is something which cannot be allowed to continue for many years longer without serious destruction in the whole game picture in Canada.
In this connection I want to mention particularly the northern wolf and the grizzly bear. Today in our national parks, and in a vast area of northern British Columbia and northern Alberta, the northern wolf has attained such proportions not only in his ferocity but in numbers that the game resources-I speak of the deer, caribou, moose and to a certain extent even the elk-are in very great danger of such serious decrease as to be a menace to the whole economy of the area.
Not only does the wolf hunt in packs, but the depredations of the northern wolf have got so bad in comparatively recent years that the packs will co-operate with each other in order to destroy whole herds of game animals. The fiendish brutality of this animal is something which should be brought to the attention of the house and should be dealt with by this department. Not only will the northern wolf destroy animals for food, but they will hamstring those animals in order to keep them alive until such time as they are ready to eat them. So true is this that the southern limit of game animals in British Columbia and Alberta, and throughout the whole Rocky mountain range, is being driven north by this ferocious killer. With regard to the national parks I have one or two suggestions which I would ask the minister to consider seriously.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I understood the hon. member was referring to wildlife, but he is now referring to national parks. There is another item dealing with the national parks.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I know; but wildlife does exist in the national parks, and the very next item in the estimates deals with those national parks. What I am saying refers to wildlife in the national parks, and in what I say I am combining the two items, and offering the suggestion that it is extremely germane to the item before the committee.
The position taken by the national parks administration is that every wild animal in


the parks is a sacred cow. The wolf, and to an extent the grizzly bear, is by no means a sacred cow. Rare animals peculiar to the Rocky mountain range, including the Rocky mountain goat, bighorn sheep, deer and other animals, are being decimated by these killers. Recently the parks administration passed regulations preventing wardens from shooting or otherwise destroying these predators. Having in mind the damage which can be caused by these killers in reducing the number of unique animals which exist in our national parks, I feel that steps should be taken immediately to prevent an increase of this predatory force before it has reached proportions sufficiently great to drive north the unique and fine game animals that exist in the Rocky mountain range.
Years ago one could not go through the area of the Simpson pass without seeing excellent specimens of bighorn sheep, goats and other game animals. Today, owing to the depredations of the grizzly and the wolf, the herds of these animals are being decimated. I suggest two things:	First of all
my suggestion is that the wardens be allowed to shoot a wolf, or otherwise to get rid of the predators. The case against the grizzly perhaps is not so well proved as that against the wolf; but I do suggest that the regulations of the national parks administration should be amended so that the wardens may be allowed to shoot or otherwise to dispose of these predators.
There are other things I think should be done, but I shall not discuss national parks while we are dealing with the wildlife item. I should like to see it made an offence to shoot an eagle anywhere in Canada. Every time we hear about some individual who has shot an eagle we see that great publicity is given to him in the press, and it is considered that a most remarkable thing has been done. The eagle today is becoming almost an extinct bird. It is unique and magnificent, and its predatory instincts are of such minor importance that its adverse effect on game is almost negligible. Without question it is one of the really great birds of the Rocky mountain range, and I would hope that protection would be given to it.
The control of killers of our game, not only our game birds but our wild big game in Canada, is not only a great asset from the standpoint of our tourist business, but a great asset from the ethical point of view in our country. More destruction is caused to wildlife by protecting the predators than has ever been caused by even the greatest extent of hunting by man. I make that statement excepting always the history of destruction

of the buffalo. But the natural enemies today of our wildlife are the greatest menace we have to meet in preserving the one thing that makes the Rocky mountain area and the western provinces the tourist Mecca and the unique place they have become for the sportsman.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
366. National parks and historic sites services, $10,138,886.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Before we begin discussion on this item I would remind hon. members that there was a general discussion on the first item, and a discussion as to what procedure should be followed. As hon. members know, the discussion in committee of the whole must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration. Notwithstanding the general discussion which was allowed on the first item dealing with departmental administration, some hon. members seem to think that there should also be a general discussion on the first item of any branch of the department. The hon. member who has just taken his seat was discussing wildlife generally and in my view he was not in order. The item now before us deals with national parks and historic sites, but I do not think there should be a general discussion under this item. Then later on there is an item in connection with the national museum of Canada. Then we take up northern administrations.
To have a general discussion on the first item of every branch is not in my view within the spirit of the general practice of having a discussion on the first item. There are experienced members in this house who surely can assist me and tell me whether my view is right. I do not see how we can have a general discussion on the first item of each branch if speeches in committee of the whole are to be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. In my view what should be discussed under the items are the details at the back of the book, instead of having a general discussion.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Item 365 was not passed.


Mr. Harris (Danforth):: I have profound respect for the views you have voiced, Mr. Chairman, but with all due deference I ask you to give consideration to the magnitude of this next vote, which is for $10 million. That is a lot of money in any man's language. I think you, Mr. Chairman, might be considerate enough to allow us a little latitude because of the size of this vote.


Agar Rodney Adamson: On a point of order-
Supply-Resources and Development


Major James William Coldwell: I think perhaps one of the unfortunate features of dealing with these estimates is that so many hon. members are attending committees when general discussion occurs. I am never very long if I can help it, but I rose to say that I regret I was not in this committee this morning when the hon. member for Royal discussed this particular item 366.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: We are on 365.


Alphonse Fournier: 366.


Louis-René Beaudoin: 366.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I tried to get on my feet on several occasions.


Alphonse Fournier: One at a time.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I was on my feet when you carried it.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I think it should be decided whether we are to have a general discussion on the first item of each branch after having had a general discussion on the first item, departmental administration.


Agar Rodney Adamson: On a point of order-


Louis-René Beaudoin: The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar.


Major James William Coldwell: I understand that a tribute was paid to a great man who had a great deal to do with marking our historic sites and I want to say that this country owes much indeed to the late Dr. Webster. I hope the new minister will endeavour to see that more of our historic sites are marked before it is too late.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Will the hon. member permit me before he launches into a discussion of this particular item 366? I should like to point out that two members were on their feet when item 365 was called carried but I did want to ask one or two questions on that particular item.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I have already said that 365 is carried but we can revert to that item and the hon. member can ask his questions after the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar has completed his remarks. I should like the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar to indicate whether or not he agrees with what I have said about general discussion.


Major James William Coldwell: I quite agree with what the chairman has said. I make a plea that the minister endeavour to see to it that more of our historic sites are marked. I notice the hon. member for The Battlefords is in his seat and I think perhaps he will rise later on to say something about this matter. In Saskatchewan such places as Battleford, Duck Lake, Batoche and other places have historic

Supply-Resources and Development sites that are largely unmarked at the present time. Some little time ago 1 was at Duck Lake and I found that that condition existed. At Battleford the old rifle pits are being obliterated and many of the locations of old Hudson's Bay posts are being lost. I repeat that I hope the minister will see that more of these sites are marked.
Is a grant made to the historic society of Canada? I cannot find it in the estimates. The work performed by men like Dr. Webster is of the utmost value and a society of this kind should be assisted if it is not already receiving assistance.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Reverting to item 365, I notice there are two superintendents of hatcheries. Could the minister tell us what type of fish were hatched last year?


Robert Henry Winters: There are hatcheries at Banff, Jasper and Waterton where sporting types of fish are raised. I have no figures as to the quantities hatched last year.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Do they deliver them to the lakes and streams, or are they handed out to other people for delivery?


Robert Henry Winters: That is quite right-to lakes and streams.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I tried to catch your eye before item 365 was carried. The minister has said that statistics and other information in the department indicate that our migratory bird population is declining. Has the minister any plans for a discussion with other countries to devise ways to reverse that trend?


Robert Henry Winters: That particular matter is under constant study by the officers of the department in co-operation with wildlife officers of the provinces and the United States. Within the next few weeks there will be a meeting in Ottawa of wildlife people from all over Canada to discuss that and other problems allied to wildlife in Canada.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Has the department any recommendation that it is going to put forward and insist be carried out in this connection? I understand these are annual conferences, and I do not wish to minimize the importance of the conferences or what has been done, but the fact is that the migratory bird population is still declining. Has the minister any proposals, and has his department any program which they intend to put forward and to press to the hilt so as to reverse the trend?


Robert Henry Winters: The department has views on what should be done. For example, there is the matter of tightening up the seasons. The whole idea of the conference is to get people together from all over Canada to obtain their 
views and see if some policy cannot be evolved to cope with the problem which will be satisfactory to all concerned.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I hope you do it.


Agar Rodney Adamson: On a point of order, you suggested that I was out of order in discussing the specific item of wildlife resources conservation. I deliberately waited until the item came up to discuss this one matter of wildlife conservation. I could have discussed it this morning on the general item. I did not do so because I thought it was better to wait until the specific item was called in order to discuss it. If it is going to be the general practice in this committee that we are to be shut off from discussing specific items then we will have to consider carrying on a more general discussion on the initial item. If the committee is going to function in the way it should the discussion should be germane and detailed, and should apply specifically to the item under discussion. If we are going to have a general discussion on everything and then be shut off when we discuss a specific item I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we will waste a great deal of time. I was discussing wildlife conservation under the specific item. I waited for it and was discussing it. There is nothing doing more damage today to our game than the predators, the wolf and the grizzly bear. That is what I wanted to say and that is what I said. If we are going to be prohibited from saying these things on the specific item then I suggest discussing the estimates has become a mockery.


Alphonse Fournier: Nobody stopped the
hon. member.


Agar Rodney Adamson: No, but they did everything they could to stop me.


Some hon. Members:: Louder.


Agar Rodney Adamson: My anger is not synthetic.


Louis-René Beaudoin: The hon. member
will remember that I intervened only when he mentioned national parks together with the subject about which he was talking, wildlife. The very fact that the hon. member discussed the two items together indicates that his remarks were of such a nature that in my view they should have been made on the administration item. Then he could have come back and discussed only wildlife on item 365 and everybody would have been happy. I suggest the item under discussion relates to the details on page 249.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The great asset of our
national parks is the wildlife in them.


Arthur Leroy Smith: On the same
point of order, I never get annoyed but I did not like very much your cutting off the hon. member for York West.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I did not cut him
off.


Arthur Leroy Smith: You lectured
him. Let us put it that way. Your lecture was full of such words as "I allowed so and so." With the greatest respect, sir, you do not allow anything. We have certain privileges in discussing these items as a matter of right, and you may stop us only when we exceed those rights. I have great respect for you personally and for the position you occupy, but you are not allowing us to do anything. You can disallow but you do not allow us. The rules of the house do the allowing.


Mr. Mclvor:: Mr. Chairman-


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order. I quite
appreciate the assistance which I receive from the hon. members. I want to assure them that I try at all times to give the greatest freedom of discussion.


Arthur Leroy Smith: May I quickly
agree with that, but do not use that word again. Do not say what you allow us to do.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Perhaps the expression does not suit my hon. friend but what I intended to convey was that the standing order which says that speeches in committee must be strictly relevant to the item must mean something. All hon. members will agree that we had a general discussion on the first item. When I began my explanations, the hon. member for York West had completely finished his remarks. I waited until the very end. What I want to get at now is that there are many other branches in this department. For example, the national museum will come later, and the next item is national parks.
I should like to ask for the opinion of experienced members. As they understand the rule that speeches in committee must be strictly relevant to the item, is it their view that when the first item of a branch comes before the committee a general discussion should be allowed, notwithstanding the fact that by practice a general discussion is allowed on the first item, departmental administration? I do not want to cut off anyone but here is the position in which I find myself. Some hon. members take the floor and others do not. When an hon. member takes the floor and starts to discuss something which he should have discussed on another item, it is quite understandable that other members feel that the chairman should intervene more than he does. That is the situation in which I find myself. I have to expedite the business of the house and at the same time permit free discussion. I am quite willing to do that. That is exactly
1,	1950
Supply-Resources and Development what is required by my position and it is what I am doing. I am asking now for the views of members of the house. Should another general discussion take place on the first item of each branch notwithstanding the fact that a general discussion was allowed on the first item concerning departmental administration, and notwithstanding the rule which says that speeches in committee must be strictly relevant to the item under consideration?	If hon. members want to
co-operate I am sure we can achieve the purpose for which the committee is set up, that is, to examine the estimates properly and at the same time expedite the business.


Arthur Leroy Smith: On the same point of order, may I say that I am so happy to agree with the general remarks which you have made, sir, because I too read the rules many years ago. Nevertheless you have suggested that an hon. member is out of order when he refers to national parks in discussing wildlife. Wildlife is largely contained in our national parks, is one of the greatest tourist attractions and assets of our national parks, and predators in those parks are destroying the game animals which have a sanctuary there. When you tell the hon. member for York West that he is out of order because he mentions national parks, that is- forgive me-something beyond my very limited understanding.


Louis-René Beaudoin: The hon. member will understand that I do not want to delay the discussion any longer than is necessary. Wildlife comes under item 365 and national parks under item 366.


An hon. Member:: Item 365 was passed.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Oh, no, it
was not.


Mr. Johnston:: Mr. Chairman, you have suggested that we should not carry on a general discussion under these items. I had some remarks to make on an item we have not reached yet, and I refrained from making those remarks earlier because on one or two occasions the minister himself pointed out to hon. members that they should wait until the item is called and then have their discussion. I followed the minister's suggestion; I waited for my item to be called. Now you come along with a ruling under which we are going to be held strictly to the item before the committee and may not speak generally. You are putting us in this position, that when the administration item is called every hon. member is going to be forced to carry on his discussion at that time. I do not believe the minister wants that; I think he would rather wait until the item in
3092	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development question is called and then have the discussion, but I think we should have it very clear. Either those of us who want to speak on these items will have to carry on our discussion on the administration item, or we must be allowed some latitude when we come to the particular items to be considered. Some of us who have refrained from taking part in the discussion on the first item will be placed in a very difficult position if you apply the rule as you have just indicated.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I must inform the hon. member that I did not make a ruling. There is a citation in Beauchesne, third edition, citation 107, which provides that in case of doubt the 'chairman may ask the opinion of experienced members, and that is what I have done. After having listened to the views expressed by the hon. member for Calgary West, the hon. member for York West, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and the hon. member for Bow River, I have come to the conclusion that we must try to observe this rule which restricts speeches to the item under consideration, but having in mind that a wide discussion must take place on certain items because of what has been said previously, it is up to each hon. member to exercise some self-restraint, in order that we may get on with the business. We are on item 366.


Mr.   Baler@: The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar was quite correct a short time ago when he stated that in all probability I would be rising to speak on this item. I do so in the belief that I am speaking on the proper subject, at the proper time and in the proper place. The item deals with national parks and historic sites services, and I want to ask the minister for just a small portion of this $11 million odd. I am appealing to the minister for financial assistance for the Battleford police memorial and Indian museum. This memorial and museum is located on a plateau practically on the historic old townsite of Battleford. Some miles below this site the North Saskatchewan and Battle rivers meet on their march to Hudson bay. Just three miles to the north is the city of North Battleford, and just one mile to the south is the first parliament building of the Northwest Territories council, located on the south bank of the Battle river immediately . south of the historic town of Battleford. I believe this building was erected in 1875 and was used by the council until 1878. It is still there, in a good state of preservation. This memorial and museum was opened by His Excellency the Governor General on May 24, 1948, at which time we were honoured by a visit of their excellencies. Perhaps I might mention the plans that have been drawn up


by those who have given much of their time and energy to this project, and who are in urgent need of funds to carry it on in a proper manner.
In the year 1876 the Battleford mounted police post was established by Colonel James Walker and linked up with such posts as Macleod, Fort Walsh, Calgary, Edmonton, Carlton and Swan River. This force served the Northwest council from 1878 to 1881 at Battleford. It served the Department of Indian Affairs. From this point its force went forth to battle at Duck Lake, Carlton, Cut Knife, Fort Pitt and Frenchman's Butte. Later, during the settlement days, it beoame a stabilizing and encouraging factor in our civilization. This locality is the home of the Cree Indian. In the early days it successfully held back the Blackfeet. There are also tribes of Saulteaux, Assiniboine and Sioux, with their long history and cultural development. The Indian agency office is still located here. The little red brick building which served as an office is still standing on the Northwest Council hill. Such early explorers as McGilli-vray, Pike, Cocking, Frobisher, Pond, Henry, Pangman, Umfreville, Thompson and Harmon passed up the North Saskatchewan and crossed to the Beaver river and lie a la Crosse to Churchill. Their fur post sites are still to be seen. It has been a pleasure to search for these and have Professor A. S. Morton come up from Saskatoon and check them over. These posts should be rebuilt or remarked, and the thrilling story of early fur days retold: Manchester House, Pine Island Post, Eagle Hills Post, Turtle Post, Buckingham House. The rich fur and pemmican trade of the Hudson's Bay and Northwest Company was centred in this part of the Saskatchewan river and at Green lake, lie a la Crosse, Prince Albert and Edmonton. As our young citizens grew up in the midst of this rich romantic and sacrificial story they too caught the spirit of enterprise. Such localities gave their best youth to the first and second world wars when the call came.
Peace has come again to our beloved Canada. A new youth is re-examining our national life. It asks, "How can harmony, brotherhood and culture be advanced and what shall we save in a new civilization?" Shall we study the social and economic factors of our localities in such a way as to engender love for nobler purposes and make the land blossom and sing? It is a land with a tradition and a promise. What shall be done with these historic spots? Once more we have asked the government to help. The Saskatchewan government consented to renovate the famous mounted police barracks. This cluster of some dozen buildings has been

standing idle since 1923. The superintendent's house, the inspector's house, the jail, the hospital, stable and mess room are to be saved. The renovation work was commenced in August, 1945. All the main buildings are ready for use. Our citizens suggested a mounted police memorial and Indian museum. The government accepted this plan provided citizens would furnish and equip this memorial and museum. The challenge was accepted. Men and women of training and ability offered to help plan, equip and interest their fellow citizens. Our plans are well advanced. Citizens are being asked to furnish the necessary funds. This endowment fund will be used to furnish and operate this memorial and museum. Our citizens may elect to honour mounties and old-timers by their gifts. It is aimed to clothe this memorial with dignity, reverence and beauty, vitalized from the rich pages of history. May its best traditions be preserved in our future citizens.
Rooms of the superintendent's house are reserved for this memorial. A room will be reserved for each of the following phases of police history: the march of 1774; the early police posts; the rebellion of 1885; the story of the Yukon and South Africa; commemorative days; and the force in wars I and II.
Actual objects used will be taken from these days and donated in memory of these men. The mounties colour scheme will be used in the furniture and draperies. The hospital stable will honour the mountie's horse. It will contain the museum of agriculture. It will be used to depict western drama from a stage overlooking the junction of the Saskatchewan and Battle rivers three miles distant. The Eagle Hills, the city of North Battleford, the town of Battleford, St. Thomas college and the occupational therapy buildings of the mental hospital are within a three-mile radius. There are 40 acres reserved for gardens and recreation grounds on this magnificent plateau. These will be beautified.
The guard room will contain the famous pictures of the force and serve as an art gallery, containing the best pictures interpretative of western life. The famous old mess hall building will be used for an auditorium and an Indian museum to interpret the culture of Crees, Blackfeet, Sioux and Assini-boines. One wing will be devoted to the story of fur companies and natural resources. The inspector's house contains the orderly room of early days. Five rooms upstairs will be set aside for the scientific section, archaeology, minerals and soils, astronomy, ceramics, stamps and coins. Located in suitable corners will be the natural history story told in habitat groups, visualizing the scenes of
Supply-Resources and Development the mounties, the trapper, the settler, and at the same time showing the birds, animals, insects and plants of the Red river trails. The advisory committees of each division are free to plan for their own division. It is planned to build a fund for each division to make this an institution of national importance and relate it to the museums of Canada and thS United States. Books, documents and pictures will be preserved in the archives for the scholar. Monthly lectures will be given to interpret the fields covered in the museum. There will be social gatherings especially for the pioneers. The old palisade which sheltered the beleaguered garrison in 1885 is to be partly rebuilt around the main gates. The bastions will be replaced.
Not only will the memorial and museum preserve and enlighten, but it will serve as a link with old posts of the past. Fort Pitt of 1829 days is to be rebuilt this year by Mr. Hougham. It is hoped other old fur posts will be rebuilt throughout western Canada. May our citizens read the cultural story as they journey from one pioneer locality to another. Each has its wonderful story. From this point other centres may be revitalized. Thus may the spirit of creativeness be fostered to enrich the economic, social and cultural life, giving new hope and faith in ,a brave new world such as our pioneers struggled to build.
I could go into many details, Mr. Chairman, to show why we require some financial aid in connection with these projects, but I will not take up the time of the committee to do so now. I will take that matter up later with the minister.
In conclusion I should like to say that I trust the minister will give favourable consideration to our request for financial aid for these worthy projects. They will cherish memories of these great men who played' so admirable a. part in the early history and development of our great northwest, and preserve the folklore and tradition of our real Canadians, our Indians.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I should like to come back again to the question of travelling expenses of $38,850, and the sundries of $67,041. This seems to me to be a tremendous amount on travelling expenses and sundries account in one item of this department. Can the minister give us a breakdown of that?


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: While the minister's assistants are looking up this information, perhaps I could make my request and speech now.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Very well.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I have my first request to make of the minister; and of course in another

Supply-Resources and Development sphere of life first offences are treated generously. We have been trying for a good many years to get a national park at the lakehead. We have perhaps the finest sight there is anywhere in Canada, in Mount McKay, Squaw bay and the Chippewa Indian reserve. No place that I have visited in Ireland, in England, or in Canada presents a more remarkable view from the standpoint of scenery. If the trans-Canada highway is going through that way, it would be a thrilling stopover for any of our tourists. Mount McKay is 1,400 feet high. The water supply of Fort William is away up behind the peak. We have a good road halfway up; and when you get up to that halfway mark, there is a thrilling view. We think it would be a great attraction for the wise men of the east if they could see the things we have there.
The other attraction that we have and that I should like the minister to consider is Kakabeka falls. Many times during the week hundreds of cars are parked there and thousands of people enjoy the beauty of these falls. My request, Mr. Chairman, is that the minister send out some of his experts this year, during July or August, and back up the request of our city, the parks board, the trades and labour council, the chamber of commerce and all sensible people at the lakehead.


Mr. Hatfield:: Mr. Chairman, I want-


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Just a minute. I should like an answer to my question first.


Robert Henry Winters: Sundries for the national parks, $67,041; the question was for the sundries breakdown as against the estimate?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I should like to get the sundries broken down and to have some details of the travelling expenses.


Robert Henry Winters: Which sundries are you referring to, the estimates for this year?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The estimates for this year, and you can give us anything you may care to for last year. The increase is $22,000 on the sundries, and on the travelling expenses the increase is about $13,000.


Robert Henry Winters: Sundries for last year of record were expenses of advertising, $17,000; rental of equipment, $15,000; unemployment insurance, $14,000; electric power for parks, $12,000; laundry and towels, $8,000; professional services, golf course experts, $6,000; technicians' fees, including architects, $6,000.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is that the actual expenditure?


Robert Henry Winters: Those are actual expenditures for last year of record.
IMr. Mclvor.]


Edmund Davie Fulton: What is the total of those items?


Robert Henry Winters: I would have to add them up. I have not the total here. The expenses are the normal expenses of the wardens and so on in national parks. The increase is occasioned by what we think will be the additional expenditure in Newfoundland by possible air charters and examining territory, and the additional expense resulting from taking over some work of the battlefields commission.


Mr. Fulford:: I am sure I am in order this time, because I am going to deal with matters that have to do with both national parks and historical sites. First I want to ask the minister to commend his department on the splendid progress which is being made in the St. Lawrence river national parks, the series of islands which stretch from Morris-burg, Ontario, on the east to Kingston, Ontario, on the west. The item in connection with the maintenance of all historic sites and national parks amounts to $10 million; but the cost of maintenance and further improvements to these parks amounts to but a fraction of the $10 million appropriation. Yet I venture to say that there is no group of national parks in Canada that give more pleasure, and to a greater number of people.
All one has to do is to go by the parks which are on the islands and mainland to see at all times during the summer months the canoes, rowboats, motor boats and the expensive cruisers drawn up at these docks, and to see the fireplaces, pavilions, the bathing houses and the other facilities which are used by the rank and file of the public. These facilities are used not only by Canadians but they are becoming increasingly popular with the citizens of the United States.
I want to commend the minister on the recent acquisition or transfer of property from the Department of Transport to the Department of Resources and Development. I refer to Windmill point, just below Prescott, Ontario. It is a very historic point and very near a town which in the past has not had the facilities of a nearby national park. I would like to suggest that further property be acquired. I understand that the property is owned by a department of government, namely the national harbours board. I would suggest that further property be acquired so that there would be adequate land available for the public to use.

At this time I should like to recommend to the minister's attention the possibility of acquiring Hill island. I might explain that Hill island is the island over which the road runs connecting the Canadian span of the

Thousand islands bridge with the international span. To me it is a very historical point, inasmuch as this bridge was opened on August 18, 1938, jointly by the late President Roosevelt and the Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King. Unfortunately, steps have not been taken to safeguard the beauty of this island, with the result that already a great deal of timber has been cut off the island adjacent to the road. I realize that this part is under the jurisdiction of the province of Ontario, but unfortunately it seems to have been neglected. There are a great many unsightly buildings such as travellers' cabins, hotdog stands, souvenir booths and so on. I suggest that it is one of the most beautiful sections in eastern Ontario, and it is the gateway for thousands of United States tourists. It could be made something of which all Canada could be proud. It is definitely an historical site, and it definitely should form one of the most beautiful points of entry to our country.
Actually the bridge now spans two national parks, Georgina island and Constance island. The span on Hill island should also be on a national park. If feasible, negotiations should be entered into with the United States to make this entire section an international park, because certainly that site is of sufficient international significance to warrant such a monument for posterity.
There is another section in the district in which I live, particularly in the county of Leeds, the county I have the honour to represent, namely, the great chain of Rideau lakes, which form an integral part of the Rideau canal system. As we all know, the Rideau canal is of particular historic importance. It was built after the war of 1812 by British army engineers. There was a rather quaint treaty signed between Great Britain and Canada when the canal system was handed over to Canada. One of the clauses of the treaty said that Canada would maintain the canal system so long as the grass was green and the skies were blue above. In that respect the canal is being well maintained.
I wonder how many of us realize the great tourist attraction that the Rideau chain of lakes is, and how an ever-increasing number of Americans and Canadians are coming to view and use this magnificent national resource. Starting at Kingston Mills on the southwest one comes into the "river Styx", and gradually going up through a series of locks one is locked into Cranberry lake, and then into Whitefish lake, to the famous Jones Falls, up to the Officers Quarters, to Sand lake, and Opinicon lake; thence through Chaffey's lock into Clear lake, Indian lake, Newboro lake; through a lock and small canal into the little Rideau lake, where one comes to the dividing
Supply-Resources and Development line of the land. Then one starts going down the canal toward Ottawa, and one comes to the big Rideau lake. The big Rideau lake stretches from the Narrows lock almost to the town of Smiths Falls.
Since the national parks on the St. Lawrence have proven so popular I see no reason why the department should not embark by degrees-it is not necessary to rush matters- on a plan to acquire gradually more islands in these Rideau lakes and develop them into national parks. There could be two or three of such islands in the big Rideau lake, perhaps one in the little Rideau lake, and so forth and so on through the various other lakes. I feel that by developing these national parks in the Rideau chain of lakes the department would be rendering a great service to the public of Canada. It would be a great attraction for the United States tourists, and at the same time it would become a living monument to the memory of those early British engineers who did such a magnificent job after the war of 1812 in creating an allCanadian route from Montreal to Kingston.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I should like the minister to answer my question on the travelling expenses. He has been interrupted by two Liberal speakers.


Robert Henry Winters: I was under the impression that I had answered it.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: You had answered the question on sundries, but not on travelling expenses.


Robert Henry Winters: I said that travelling expenses were incurred by the park wardens in the line of their duties and by the officials of the department. There is an increase in expenditures. That is occasioned by certain work we expect to undertake this year in Newfoundland, and certain other additional work we expect to do by taking over certain work from the battlefields commission.


William Joseph Browne: Can the
minister tell us whether they are battlefields in Newfoundland or battlefields in Europe?


Robert Henry Winters: The battlefields commission applies only to the battlefields of Quebec.


William Joseph Browne: I should like to draw attention to the old historic forts I mentioned at Placentia, Trepassey and Carbonear island. Carbonear island especially is of significance, because it was the one place in Newfoundland that held out against the French in one of the wars between Englaid and France. A moment ago, in answer to the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton, the minister gave us a breakdown of expenditures

Supply-Resources and Development for 1949-50 which, as I have totalled them, amount to $78,000, although only $45,000 is voted. Is that correct?


Robert Henry Winters: I shall have to re-check that.


William Joseph Browne: I took down the figures given to me. I should like to know the amount spent on salaries and wages last year, as well as the amount spent on the acquisition and construction of buildings, and the two following items which refer to the repair and upkeep of buildings and the acquisition of equipment. I presume the officials have that information. Referring to the first item, what was spent on salaries and wages last year?


Robert Henry Winters: The officials inform me they have not the information of expenditures for last year on specific items such as that. They have the over-all expenditures on the parks item.


William Joseph Browne: I thought the minister told us a while ago that they did have these expenditures, and I presumed he gave us the figure for the sundries, beginning with an item of $17,000 for advertising. The figures given totalled $78,000. If the minister has not the details, can he get them?


Robert Henry Winters: We can get them, yes.


William Joseph Browne: I should like to have the figures on salaries, acquisition and construction of buildings and works, repair and upkeep of buildings and works, and the acquisition of equipment. Then, what amount out of this $10 million does the minister expect to spend in Newfoundland this year?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount earmarked against this for Newfoundland in 1950-51 is $10,000 for surveys.


William Joseph Browne: That is $10,000 out of $10 million.


Mr. Gibson:: Give us time to take a look at it.


William Joseph Browne: It is over a year now.


Heber Harold Hatfield: What has been the cost of the national park in New Brunswick? What has it cost to date, and has it been completed? What will it cost when it is completed?1


Louis-René Beaudoin: May I ask hon. members to stand when they wish to ask a question. Otherwise it is very difficult for the Hansard reporter to know who is speaking.


Gordon Graydon: He did stand up in the first instance.


George James McIlraith: A long time ago.


Gordon Graydon: You are living in the past, anyway.


Robert Henry Winters: So far the expenditure has been about $850,000. The expenditure earmarked for the park this year is $978,855. There are continuing expenses in a park such as that. I would imagine, at a rough guess-and it is always dangerous to guess- that another million dollars beyond the amount I have mentioned would complete the work.


William Scottie Bryce: I have not had the opportunity to visit some of these national parks, but if they are all as well maintained as Riding Mountain park in my own province, then I shall be content. The display of flowers in that park last year was a credit to the parks administration. I had the opportunity of taking some coloured photographs and showing them to the minister.
Have the camp sites in that park been extended, and have more been established this year? Has the electrical wiring been continued past the three or four streets, and have more sewers been laid? I believe it was the intention of the department to do that work last year, and I should like to know if it has been done. Otherwise it would be a menace to the park to have visitors who come there using coal oil lamps when they could use electric lights if the cable were extended another two or three streets.


Robert Henry Winters: Some of the work to which the hon. member refers has been completed, and some is being done this year.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I am not satisfied with the answer I was given. Cannot the minister give a breakdown of the travelling expenses for last year?


Robert Henry Winters: We have not a detailed breakdown before us now.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: What was the total amount spent last year in travelling expenses?


Robert Henry Winters: I understand from the officials that the accounts are just closing, and that at the present time we do not have the total amount spent last year.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I thought the accounts
closed at the end of March?


Mr. Charlton:: In view of the fact that there is an amount of $10,138,886 to be spent by this department, and almost $8 million of that is for the acquisition or construction of buildings, repairs and upkeep of buildings and works, and acquisition of equipment, I should like to bring to the minister's attention one important historic site located oa

the Six Nations Indian reserve at Brantford. I am sure most hon. members will remember Chiefswood, as the birthplace of Pauline Johnson, which is now in a state of bad repair. I am sure it is beyond the means of the Six Nations council to undertake the necessary rebuilding. I would urge the minister to use all possible influence to allocate part of this $8 million to be used as a grant to help the Six Nations council to repair Chiefswood.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I understood the minister to say that in the breakdown of sundries there is an item of $17,000 for advertising. Is that correct?


Robert Henry Winters: The actual expenditures in 1948-49 for advertising were $17,000.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What was the purpose of the advertising?


Robert Henry Winters: Largely for the calling of tenders for various projects in the national parks and to inform people of events of interest that are to take place in the parks.


William Joseph Browne: The figures the minister gave me were for 1948-49?


Robert Henry Winters: That is what I said.


William Joseph Browne: They total $78,000.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, that was the total for 1948-49.


William Joseph Browne: I am afraid the minister is wrong because the amount for sundries shown in the public accounts for 1948-49 is $91,000. I should like to have some explanation of that discrepancy.


Robert Henry Winters: The hon. member is quite right in his addition.


William Joseph Browne: The amount is given as $91,000 in the public accounts.


Robert Henry Winters: I have not the public accounts before me.	.


William Joseph Browne: I can send them over to the minister.


Mr. Stanfield:: What is going to be done about the proposed Blomidon national park which the government said before the last election it would build? During the last campaign many ministers and others were running up and down the country trying to convince the people of the wonderful park they were going to build if the Liberal government was returned. The Liberal government was returned and we have not heard anything about the park since. As the minister knows, that park would be situated in the middle of the Annapolis valley which is the centre of the most flourishing tourist business
1,	1950
Supply-Resources and Development in Nova Scotia as well as being an historic site. I understand the provincial government is anxious to have the park constructed and the Liberal government said they were going to build the park. We do not intend to let them off without a statement as to why they are not going to build it. I think we should have a statement from the minister as to the situation with regard to that park in Kings county.


Edmund Davie Fulton: He is saving it for the byelection.


Robert Henry Winters: I made no such promise. If certain people made such a promise all I can say is that it is "small potatoes" compared to what I have heard from members of the party to which my hon. friend belongs.


George Alexander Drew: There is a lot to do before they catch up.


Arthur Leroy Smith: They have all their small potatoes still left down there.


Robert Henry Winters: That is a beautiful area regardless of any political connotation my hon. friend wishes to read into it.


Frank Thomas Stanfield: I was not trying to read any political connotation into it at all.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not think my hon. friend should generalize. To my knowledge no one has made a promise. There has been discussion and correspondence between the Nova Scotia government and the department. The site has been surveyed but before an area can become a national park it must be offered by the provincial government. So far there has been no offer and it has not been decided whether the area is suitable for a national park and whether the Nova Scotia government should be invited to make an offer.


William Joseph Browne: What figures is the minister using to base his estimate on? Surely he is not relying on the 1948-49 expenditures when he has the 1949-50 expenditures to go by? How does he come to have this estimate? There was a supplementary estimate of half a million, but it included no sundries.


Robert Henry Winters: The items I have indicated to my hon. friend are the type of item that come under this general sundry item. If the hon. member wishes specific information we will get it and send it to him.


Percy Chapman Black: As the hon. member for Colchester-Hants has said, there is only one major park in Nova Scotia and a great many people are looking forward to the construction of Blomidon park. I should like to have some information as to what is being spent in the Highlands national park

Supply-Resources and Development in northern Cape Breton. Has any contract been let? How many tenders were received? Who was the successful tenderer?


Robert Henry Winters: The amount earmarked for Cape Breton Highlands national park is $1,338,478. It is for the construction of the Cabot trail from Ingonish to South Mountain including bridges, and the reconstruction of the Cabot trail from South Mountain to Cabot bay, including bridges and culverts, also the construction of low-rental tourist accommodation. The contract for the road work has been let. As I recall, there were three tenderers, the successful tenderer being the Fundy Construction Company.


Percy Chapman Black: What mileage is covered by the tender, and how many miles of the Cabot trail have been constructed? I think the original mileage was 186 with the trail starting at Baddeck and returning to the same point. I understand it has since been shortened a few miles by eliminating curves and bends.


Robert Henry Winters: In 1948-49, 6'2 miles were completed; in 1949-50, 8-2 miles were completed and in 1950-51 a proposed mileage of 15-5 will be completed.


Percy Chapman Black: Has that mileage been graded and hard-surfaced?


Robert Henry Winters: It is not hard-surfaced yet.


Percy Chapman Black: That mileage is still to be hard-surfaced?


Robert Henry Winters: That is correct.


Edmund Davie Fulton: If anyone looks at the breakdown on page 250 he will see that four persons have been added to the branch under the category of permanent and temporary assistance. Then there is a large item for casuals and others, although the number to be employed is not given. With an increase of only four in the number of personnel the total amount for salaries and wages has gone up $119,000 over last year. It seems that there is a large increase not altogether accounted for unless it be by casuals and others. If it be by casuals and others it would seem that the department must be intending to undertake a good deal of extra work this year over what was done last year. .Can the minister explain the reason for the increase and say whether I am right in that assumption?


Robert Henry Winters: The increase to which my hon. friend refers is something of the order of 10 per cent which is taken up by increases and adjustments of salaries.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Does that apply to casuals and others, the item for whom has gone up $42,000?


Robert Henry Winters: There have been increases in wages for casuals, and in many instances they will be employed for a longer period this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
367. Trans-Canada highway-surveys of route in Banff and Yoho national parks, $25,000.
Charles Edward Johnston: First of all I should like to congratulate the minister on taking immediate steps to have the trans-Canada highway surveyed through the national parks. It would indeed be a shame if the rest of the highway were completed and the section within the national parks were not. I think the minister deserves credit for getting this part of the work done. Under the survey which is going to be conducted in the national parks is provision being made at this time for a four-lane highway, and is the national highway to be of sufficiently sound construction to carry freight hauled by motor transport? As the minister knows, it has been the policy of the present government to prohibit the passage of motor transports carrying freight through national parks. This affects us particularly in western Canada because it absolutely prohibits the transfer of freight by motor transport from the prairie provinces to the province of British Columbia. The federal government has put an embargo on the transportation of freight through the national parks. To my mind it is not good enough merely to have a highway so that people in motorcars may enjoy the scenery and prohibit the transportation of freight. I do not think that is the intention of the minister. In fact I am quite sure it is not, but inasmuch as it is the policy of the government I should like to know what provision is being made to have the road surveyed in such a way that it will be wide enough, and to provide for sufficiently sound construction to permit the transportation of freight and tourist traffic through the parks.


Robert Henry Winters: The trans-Canada highway through national parks will be of the same standard as the trans-Canada highway elsewhere in Canada.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is that a four-lane highway?


Robert Henry Winters: It is a two-lane highway. The basic specification calls for a hard-surfaced road 24 feet wide with 10-foot shoulders on each side, where obtainable. The loading permitted on the highway will be in conformity with that permitted on the highway elsewhere in Canada, and in conformity with the regulations of the province through which that part of the highway goes.


Charles Edward Johnston: Then I can take it if the
province allows certain haulage on its provincial highways the same traffic will be allowed through the national parks. Is that right?


Robert Henry Winters: That is the general policy
being considered for the trans-Canada highway through national parks.


Charles Edward Johnston: Will that be the policy of the federal government?


Robert Henry Winters: That is the policy of the
federal government.


Charles Edward Johnston: Of course the minister is
aware of the fact that the federal government does not now permit the haulage of freight through national parks. I do not know whether it is because they are trying to bolster the inefficiently run C.N.R. railway which goes in the hole every year, but certainly we should not allow them to say that the roads are not to be constructed in such a way as to carry freight over them.


Mr. Mutch:: A fine example of irresponsibility.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am not quite clear as to the
implication of what the minister said. When the highway is completed it will pass through Banff and Yoho national parks. Will through trucking be permitted? Will trucks be permitted to enter from the west, pass through the parks and leave at the east exit, and vice versa, without off-loading onto another vehicle in transit?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes; that will be the arrangement.


Howard Charles Green: Under the statute the trans-
Canada highway need not be completed for several years.


Robert Henry Winters: Seven years.


Howard Charles Green: Is it the intention that this road may be used by trucks this year, or will the new policy be held in abeyance until the whole trans-Canada highway has been completed in British Columbia?


Robert Henry Winters: I am not familiar enough
with the type of road existing through the parks at the present moment to be able to say. That will depend on the engineering standard of the road, but I can say that when the highway is completed and we are satisfied the standard is satisfactory to carry the traffic, which is what we are aiming at, we will allow the through transport of commercial vehicles.


Howard Charles Green: Is the road being completed
this year in the national parks, or when is that work to be done?
1, 1950
Supply-Resources and Development


Robert Henry Winters: We have the same restriction imposed upon us, that there will be a period of seven years in which we can complete the road.


Charles Edward Johnston: I feel quite certain from what the minister has said that he hopes- and I use that word advisedly-that when the road is constructed freight hauled by motor transport will be allowed to enter one gate of the national park and pass right through to the gate on the other side. I hope that policy has the approval of the Minister of Transport. If it has not, the condition will be the same as it is now. Motor transports carrying freight may enter the east gate of Banff national park and proceed as far as Banff but they cannot go on through. You cannot haul a load of freight by motor transport right through the park. That is a ruling made by the board of transport commissioners under the Department of Transport. The minister may be quite sincere-and I am sure he is-when he says that he desires freight to go right through the parks from Alberta to British Columbia.


An hon. Member:: He said it would.


Charles Edward Johnston: He said it would, and I am quite convinced that the minister is of that view. What I want to know, however, is whether that policy has the approval of the Department of Transport.


Robert Henry Winters: The restriction my hon. friend refers to is a park regulation.


Charles Edward Johnston: No. You must understand that park transportation is controlled by the Department of Transport. It is the Department of Transport that lays down the ruling.


Robert Henry Winters: I am told by the officials that there is no restriction imposed by the board of transport commissioners. The restriction is one laid down by the parks branch.


Charles Edward Johnston: For what reason?


Robert Henry Winters: It was a matter of regulating traffic on the road.


Charles Edward Johnston: Was it because the road was not in sufficiently good condition to carry freight, because they did not want the freight to be taken away from the railways, or because they did not want to frighten the wild animals?


Robert Henry Winters: It was a matter of the adequacy of the highway.


Charles Edward Johnston: I should like to pursue that one step further. I am glad that the minister has stated that the reason such traffic was not permitted was that the highway was not able

Supply-Resources and Development to carry it. My information is just the opposite to that, and it comes from a very reliable source. My information is that it is the policy of the government. In fact the statement was made in the public accounts committee a few days ago that it was the policy of the government to prohibit truck traffic in the national parks. Of course that is right along the line of closing the national parks to trucks. I am going to take the minister's statement as the truth. I hope it works out that way, though I am still a little sceptical, not of the minister's statement but of the policy of the government. After this highway is completed I hope the minister will see to it that trucks are allowed to pass through our national parks.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Following that same line, going out the west gate the highway goes around Big Bend, and it is purely a gravel road. Certainly from personal observation I would agree with those who believe it is not ready for heavy freight yet. But that is not what bothers me at the moment. Here we have an expenditure of $10 million with respect to parks. It may be that I have missed the boat under item 366. I was referring to the details on page 250, where these million dollar expenditures are shown, and we have not heard a word about them yet. However, if that section has been passed I accept the fact and am not going to ask for any favours.
Now we are dealing with item 367, which provides $25,000 for surveys of the route. I will leave the other matter as my own misfortune, but dealing with this item of $25,000 I should like to know where it is intended to spend that money, in view of the fact that the route of the trans-Canada highway through Alberta and British Columbia has been agreed upon. Where and how are you going to spend $25,000 on surveys for a road which is now very well established?


Robert Henry Winters: This amount is to cover location surveys for the road through our national parks, not through the provincial areas of Alberta or British Columbia. It is not at all certain that the present route of the highway through those national parks is the best, and it is proposed to run location surveys to determine whether the trans-Canada highway should be relocated through the national parks or whether the existing routes are the best available.


Mr. Smiih (Calgary Wesi):: Let us take the route from the east gate, which is in the neighbourhood of Campbell. That has been altered. Then take the route west from there. I happen to know that country rather well, and I was wondering if the minister


could tell me where it was contemplated that this surveying would be done within the park. I am not speaking of what may happen outside the park, but I would like to know where you intend to spend this money, near what town or place?


Robert Henry Winters: The survey parties are not going to be tied to any location. Their instructions will be to go in there and make location surveys, to survey the general area and find out what would be the best route for a road. That is common practice.


Sidney Earle Smith: That is rather overdoing it, is it not? These survey parties have gone through there time and again; and I can assure the minister that the route within the park is well located at the present time. As a matter of fact the western end was rebuilt within very recent years; that is the approach into Lake Louise from Banff.


Robert Henry Winters: It may very well prove to be the best route.


Sidney Earle Smith: I am sure it is, and my opinion will not cost $25,000.


Mr. Byrne:: I am quite familiar with the area in question, and I am quite sure that if these surveys are made as cheaply as the pipe line surveys were made, for instance, the whole of this $25,000 will not be required. However, that is difficult terrain, and this survey will require a considerable time. With the river and gorge-


Arthur Leroy Smith: There is no gorge.


James Allen (Jim) Byrne: -it is going to be very difficult to properly survey a good route. However, that is not what I intended to deal with. There has been some confusion with respect to transport trucks going through the park. Owing to my intercession last fall the department relaxed their restrictions on trucking to the extent that at the present time farmers are allowed to take trucks weighing up to three tons through the park. Then I have had assurances, and I know similar assurances have been published, that when the trans-Canada highway is completed transport trucks will be permitted to traverse that highway just as if it did not go through the parks. Everyone knows the federal government would not undertake these expenditures and then have trucks stopped at each gate of the park.


Percy Chapman Black: The minister gave certain standard specifications for the highway. I should like to know the standard specifications for the right of way. Is it to be 100 feet or 66 feet?


Robert Henry Winters: The conference last December agreed that the optimum right of way would

be 100 feet, but that there were certain circumstances in which 66 feet would have to be accepted; and we have agreed to that. We hope most provnces will be able to provide a minimum of 66 feet, but we also have regard to the fact that in certain areas of British Columbia and perhaps Newfoundland and elsewhere it may not be possible to'attain even that. However, we hope every effort will be made to do so.


Percy Chapman Black: I think that is a sound decision. I know in Nova Scotia and particularly in Cape Breton when we were building what we considered to be the trans-Canada highway back in the thirties, the right of way was 100 feet. Then I should like to know what progress is being made toward the conclusion of a contract with the province of Nova Scotia. If it has not yet been agreed upon I should like to know what is holding up that contract.


Robert Henry Winters: There is a vote for the trans-Canada highway, if my hon. friend would care to defer his question until then; or with your permission, Mr. Chairman, I can answer it now.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: The minister may answer it, but I think it is quite out of order on this item.


Robert Henry Winters: There is another item for the trans-Canada highway.


Percy Chapman Black: That is the $20
million item?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


Percy Chapman Black: That is a statutory item. We have been carrying on a rather extensive discussion of the trans-Canada highway under this item of $25,000, but if the minister prefers I have no objection to waiting for the other item.


Robert Henry Winters: This is just in the national parks of Yoho and Banff.


Percy Chapman Black: That will be all right, if it is the wish of the minister.
Item agreed1 to.
370. National Museum of Canada, $250,000.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I want to ask a question about a song book that came to my desk from the national museum entitled "Come A-Singing". Can the minister tell me how many of these song books were printed, or why they were printed? It is headed, "National Museum of Canada" and on the inside it gives the price as 25 cents and says it was printed by the king's printer.


Mr. Sinclair:: Sing one of the songs.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The only song I can sing well is "Far, Far Away." These are Canadian folk
3101
Supply-Resources and Development songs, and" I wondered whether other books of this kind were printed, and if so how many of each and how they were distributed. I should also like to know what the cost was.


Robert Henry Winters: I have not seen the book to which my hon. friend refers. The national museum has quite a collection of old folk songs of various types which they usually try to have reduced to steel tape recordings, and eventually to get them on paper in the form of books. We have no record before us now of how many of that particular publication there were; but I can find that out and give my hon. friend that information.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I wish the minister would find that out and also what other books the national museum publishes. I think we should have that information for the record; and I think we should know what they are costing. Songs of this kind perhaps are all right, although I am not too keen about the illustrations in the song book. I think the minister should have a look at it also. If he wants to see it, I will let him have it.


Robert Henry Winters: I will get the information and give it to my hon. friend.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In connection with this item, on page 251 in the details a breakdown is given showing field surveys, $31,000. What field surveys does the national museum conduct?


Robert Henry Winters: I have a note here which says that last year the national museum was able to extend its field activities on the amount of money voted owing to the fact that the geographical bureau looked after the field expenses of two of the museum field officers, and also owing to the fact that two other scientists worked without remuneration, and all the parties put in a shorter season than was desirable.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That does not sound good to me. I think the minister should read on.


Robert Henry Winters: The surveys are: botanical surveys, for which we have an amount of $4,600; zoological surveys, $7,000; archaeological surveys, $10,600; and ethnological surveys, $8,800.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Why does the national museum carry on these surveys when in the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys there are survey branches? I do not quite see the need for field surveys by the national museum.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Looking for trilliums.


Robert Henry Winters: I would think, Mr. Chairman, that these would be two quite different fields. The technical surveys which the Department

Supply-Resources and Development of Mines and Surveys is responsible for are topographic, hydrographic and geodetic surveys and the like.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I thought the minister said geological surveys was one type.


Robert Henry Winters: I said zoology, archaeology, ethnology and botany; surveys in natural history.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In connection with this item, which is $31,000 for this year, how are the costs differentiated from travelling expenses?


Arthur Leroy Smith: They are not.


Edmund Davie Fulton: They are a separate item.


Robert Henry Winters: The travelling expenses of the people engaged in those survey parties are included in that $31,000.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Just the people in the survey parties?


Robert Henry Winters: Just the people in the survey parties. The other people in the museum who travel have their travelling expenses shown under the other item.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Has the minister the report on the pre-glacial botanical discovery made by Dr. Porsild comparatively recently in the Northwest Territories?


Robert Henry Winters: The report is not in yet.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It was reported at some length. It has been one of the outstanding botanical discoveries of the century. It was reported in the New York Times comparatively recently. I wonder if it is possible to have a copy of the report, because it is of some considerable botanical importance.


William Joseph Browne: A few
moments ago when we were dealing with another item, I was told that the department is using the 1948-49 expenditures in connection with the illustrations of the estimates. In the public accounts I find that the expenditures for 1948-49 for the national museum were only $144,000. Then the estimate for 1949-50 went up to $209,000 and this year it has gone up another 25 per cent to $250,000.
I think the minister should give some explanation of that increase.


Robert Henry Winters: The museum is an organization that has been neglected for a long time. It had been behind in its field work and in its publication of various scientific activities and findings. I am told, and I have every reason to believe it is correct, that the amount voted this year is certainly not too much for the sort of museum we should have as a national museum of Canada. The fact is not that this is too much; it is that the other amount to which my hon. friend referred was far too little.


William Joseph Browne: I agree with that view. But you have not the place to put the exhibits. You will have to get another place. That building down there is not sufficient.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Parliament sat there once. ,


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: My view would be that there are not sufficient funds available to do the work that a national museum in Canada should be doing.


Robert Henry Winters: That is what I said.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I hope that this committee will support the granting of more funds for this purpose in the future. I am of the opinion that our national museum has a shoddy appearance inside. Are there any proposals or plans for improving the interior of the present building or for extending the national museum?


Arthur Leroy Smith: Where is it?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I think that is most necessary.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do you know where it is?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Yes. I have been there several times.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that matter is receiving active consideration; and we hope some improvements will be made in the near future.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Actually, there is more material stored and out of sight in the museum than there is on view.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Development services branch-
371. Lands division-administration of dominion, ordnance and admiralty, and public lands; seed grain collections, $282,200.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What does the seed grain collection have to do with this ordnance and admiralty, and public lands administration?


Robert Henry Winters: These are as a result of advances made years ago in western Canada when the lands were still administered by the federal government and the responsibility for collections still remains with this department.


Edmund Davie Fulton: An increase is shown here in total salaries of $32,000, and only one more person is shown in the breakdown at page 251. I understand that there have been increases in salaries, but this is a good deal more than 10 per cent. One approves of the increases that have been made in the civil

service scale, but why should the addition of one person in the department result in an increase of $32,000 in salary?


Robert Henry Winters: This is a matter of salary increases and adjustments of salary, and also transfers between departments on the formation of the new department from the old department. It is entirely a matter of increases and adjustments.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I can appreciate that there has been some difficulty in making a breakdown of personnel from the old department to the new. The breakdown that is given here shows a personnel of 82 employed in the Department of Resources and Development, lands division, last year; whereas there are 83 employed on the same work this year. Therefore there is only one extra person doing this work in the lands division this year and yet the same people appear to be getting $32,000 more this year than last year. That is more than 10 per cent.


Robert Henry Winters: If my hon. friend goes through the breakdown that we are discussing he will find that there are ten people under the classification of clerks this year as against six last year; although there is just one over-all increase, he will see that there are changes at different levels which account for the difference in salaries.	[DOT]


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I have to go back to the
travelling expenses again. I see they are five times as high this year as they were last year. Last year they were $500; this year they are $2,500. Can the minister give us a little explanation of that?


Robert Henry Winters: What was the figure my hon. friend referred to?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I was mistaken. The increase is from $10,000 to $14,000.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right. Last year the
expenses of the travelling auditor were paid by the comptroller of the treasury. This year his travelling expenses are paid out of this vote, which would account for some of the increase to $14,000. Of course, the $14,000 is an estimate of what we think will be required this year.


Mr. Low:: I wish to ask the minister a
question in connection with surveys. I notice that $10,000 is allocated for surveys. By whom are the surveys made? Is the geographical section of the general staff of the army employed on this work?


Robert Henry Winters: What is the amount my hon.
friend is asking about?


Solon Earl Low: It is my mistake; it is only $1,500.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.
Supply-Resources and Development


Solon Earl Low: Are army personnel of the geographical section employed on this type of work?


Robert Henry Winters: No; this is just for surveys
of lands that are being sold under the act, under this section.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Northern administrations-Arctic division-
378. Operation and maintenance of services, including Eskimo affairs, $300,935.
Edmund Davie Fulton: This item reads:
Operation and maintenance of services, including Eskimo affairs.
What services does this department supply to the Eskimos? Are there any similar services supplied by the Indian affairs branch of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration?


Robert Henry Winters: No; there is no duplication.
This department is responsible for matters pertaining to Eskimos, and is quite separate from any work done in the field on behalf of Indians.


Mr. Harkness:: What matters in connection with Eskimos does this particular subdivision of the minister's department deal with?


Robert Henry Winters: The purpose of this vote is to provide for salaries and expenses connected with the administration of the Northwest Territories Act, ordinance and regulations and order in council P.C. 709 of August 31, 1927, within the Arctic areas of the Northwest Territories, including the districts of Keewatin and Franklin and the coastal area of the Mackenzie district; Eskimo affairs, excluding medical care and hospitalization within the province of Quebec, education, welfare, investigations leading to improvement of native economy, development of handicrafts, administration of justice, inspections, preparation and publication of factual material, acquisition and maintenance of equipment and purchases of supplies and so on.


Douglas Scott Harkness: Education of Eskimos and welfare work would come under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration?


Robert Henry Winters: No; for Eskimos it comes under this department.


Douglas Scott Harkness: They also have a vote for it in the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Heretofore we have always dealt with it under that division. They certainly have a vote for Eskimos so far as hospitalization and welfare are concerned. We had quite a discussion last year in connection with the payment of family allowances to Eskimos under the Indian affairs branch.


Robert Henry Winters: No; the Indian affairs branch has not had anything to do with the affairs
3104	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development of Eskimos. That has been the responsibility of this branch.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I notice that this vote calls for a total expenditure of $25,385 for salaries and wages. Last year the amount was $500. Can the minister explain that increase?


Robert Henry Winters: It is due to the educational system under which we operate. We now have a number of schoolteachers that we did not have before. This large increase is attributable to the increase in the number of schoolteachers for Eskimos.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Can the minister explain the allowances of $7,200?


Robert Henry Winters: That is $1,500 for married men working in the department in the district, and $900 for single men.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What is the reason that the Department of Resources and Development is responsible for Eskimo affairs when another branch of another department is looking after Indian affairs? From what the minister says the two of them appear to be carrying on much the same activity in their respective spheres. Would it not be more efficient to have the Indian affairs branch deal with both Indians and Eskimos?


Robert Henry Winters: No; that of course is a matter that receives consideration from time to time. This department is charged with the administration of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. The predominant people up there are the Eskimos. They live under conditions different from the Indians, and a great attempt has been made to assimilate them into modern ways of life and so on. They are not the same type of wards as Indians are, and the over-all conditions are sufficiently different that it would appear to be the proper thing to do, so far as we are concerned at any rate, to have them included in the northern administration of this department.


Edmund Davie Fulton: There is an increase in sundries under this item from $42,000 to $96,000, or an increase of $54,000. What is the explanation for that?


Robert Henry Winters: The item of sundries totals $96,500, made up as follows:
Film rentals, advertising teachers' positions,
miscellaneous	 $ 1,500
Relief of indigent Eskimos of Quebec, $30,000 Relief of indigent Eskimos of Labrador	 25,000

 55,000
Allowance	for old	age	Eskimos	 12,000
Investigation and removal of Eskimo families to areas where game is more plentiful	 3,000
Rehabilitation of Eskimos, including those who have been	victims of	polio	 25,000


$96,500 COMMONS
Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to make a Suggestion. As we go through these details we see large items for sundries which, on the surface, appear to be open or general expenditures accounts. In most cases, at least in this department, there has been a complete explanation of how those are made up. I suggest that in future years the minister consider including that detail in his estimates.


Robert Henry Winters: I shall certainly bring it to the attention of the Minister of Finance and treasury board.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Does the minister have no responsibility in respect of the detail in which he breaks down his estimates?


Robert Henry Winters: We are governed as to how they are printed by the Department of Finance and treasury board.


George Alexander Drew: That is quite contrary to the information I understood we received from Mr. Bryce. I understood the explanation as to why there was not uniformity * was that the minister in each department was responsible for the manner in which his estimates were presented.


Robert Henry Winters: Well, as I said, I do not think it is a major point, so far as I am concerned. I should be very happy to break them down. I simply said that I would bring it to the attention of my colleague and consult him on it.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Looking through the public accounts for 1948-49, the last volume available, we find that for the department of mines and resources, as it was then known, there is a total expenditure for Northwest Territories, Arctic division, of $110,000. Of the sundries only $2,000 was expended. We now have a breakdown showing sundries of $96,500. Are these new expenditures-particularly the large items of welfare which the minister detailed?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, they are new expenditures.


William Joseph Browne: Do the
Eskimos of Labrador come under this vote?


Robert Henry Winters: The matter of how Eskimos in Labrador will be handled has not finally been settled. However, we have put $25,000 in here for the relief of indigent Eskimos.


William Joseph Browne: In Labrador?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, in Labrador. And at the same time we are working on a final settlement with Newfoundland as to how this should be handled.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Are the herds of reindeer which support the Eskimos now selfsupporting?


Robert Henry Winters: Some of the herds are selfsupporting and some are not. A great deal of attention has been given to that, as my hon. friend knows. Suitable Eskimos have been picked out and put in charge of reindeer herds, to take care of them and do what they can by way of protecting them.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Are the herds increasing, and is the experiment a success?


Robert Henry Winters: The answer is yes.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I see here an item for hospitalization, professional and other special services. Do I understand that this department looks after the hospitalization and medical care of Eskimos?


Robert Henry Winters: The hospital expense shown here is for indigent whites and half-breed patients in hospital.


Douglas Scott Harkness: The minister's department has no responsibility for the hospitalization and medical care of Eskimos?


Robert Henry Winters: That is correct.


Douglas Scott Harkness: That comes under the
Department of National Health and Welfare.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: While last year there was no expenditure for temporary assistance, the amount this year is $24,285, and a further amount of $1,100 for casuals. Will the minister explain that, please?


Robert Henry Winters: The temporary assistance is largely for welfare teachers, grade III. There are listed six welfare teachers.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Is that something new this year?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes; the rest is for labourers.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: The expenditure for supplies and materials has increased from $5,000 to $41,500; can the minister explain that?


Robert Henry Winters: The expenditures are as
follows:
Direct relief to indigent whites, Eskimos, and those of mixed blood living in the
Arctic area,	Northwest Territories		$25,000
Fuel for heating school and teachers' residences		 10,000
Food for noon-day lunches for about 400
Eskimo school	children	 2,500
Films, rations for teachers, miscellaneous items	 4,000


George Alexander Drew: Where do they use telephones and telegraphs up there?
Supply-Resources and Development


Robert Henry Winters: It is a matter of communication, wireless messages to and fro.


George Alexander Drew: From where?


Robert Henry Winters: Mostly from Ottawa.


George Alexander Drew: If they were wireless messages
they would be sent from the government stations as a direct operation.


Robert Henry Winters: I am told that if we use the facilities of the Department of Transport we pay their operating tolls; if we use the facilities of the Department of National Defence we are able to send the communications free of charge to the department.


George Alexander Drew: Do you pay for that here?


Robert Henry Winters: We pay the tolls charged by the Department of Transport out of this vote.


George Alexander Drew: It was explained to us yesterday by the Minister of Finance that all departments are now paid through the Department of Finance.


Robert Henry Winters: The fact of the matter is that this amount is required for telegraphic communications to the area concerned.


Mr. Applewhaile:: Under the heading of
northern administration this committee has passed without the slightest hesitation or criticism items totalling approximately $5 million, but we now have some petty little sum of $300,000 to be spent for the benefit of our Eskimo population and it is being picked 1 to pieces. I trust sincerely that neither the minister nor the government will assume from that that this country begrudges the small amount we are now expending upon the Eskimo population and which in my opinion might well be increased without in any way over-pampering the Eskimo.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: It has been doubled in one
year.


George Alexander Drew: Having heard this-I hesitate
to use the term "claptrap"-


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Some hon. Members:: Shame.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: I rise on a question of
privilege. I am not certain whether the word "claptrap" is parliamentary but assuming that it is not I am willing to consider where it comes from and let it go at that.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


George Alexander Drew: We have the trained seals again. Let us come back to the item. This is the kind of item that should be explained, not from the point of view of taking care of the Eskimo, about whom other hon. members are just as concerned as the hon. member who has just made these utterly inane remarks-

Supply-Resources and Development


Some hon. Members:: Order.


George Alexander Drew: I am simply asking where this
payment is made. I ask that because it is important that we know through which channels these things are handled.


George Matheson Murray: Recently there was an outbreak of poliomyelitis among the Eskimo and it is thought that these germs were brought down the Mackenzie river-


George Alexander Drew: They are not brought by telegraph.


George Matheson Murray: -by white men. No doubt they originated with troops from the southern states who were brought up to build the highway and airport.


Arthur Leroy Smith: They are brought by telephone.


George Matheson Murray: Probably some money was spent on telephone communications by the government in order to get doctors and nurses to help the Eskimo. The Eskimo is a law-abiding decent little sort of man, although he may be slightly unusual in his marital relations according to our beliefs. However, he is a citizen of Canada and is entitled to just as much consideration as anybody else. I think this money is being well spent on hospitals, doctors, nurses and schoolteachers.


Arthur Leroy Smith: We were told a minute ago that we should stay on the item, but could we get further away from the item than this?


George Alexander Drew: This is not a single item, nor is it a case of the concern that hon. members of this house may have for the Eskimo. I do not think there is any doubt that everyone here is anxious to see them cared for. This item of telephones and telegrams is repeated under the various headings, and in this case I am simply asking where this is paid and to whom.


Robert Henry Winters: As I said before, this is paid to the Department of Transport for the dispatch of messages by radio telephone and by ground wires which deal with the administration of the Arctic areas, including messages to and from vessels other than the C. D. Howe.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Is that a vessel?


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: At the bottom of page 254 there is an item of $30,000 for acquisition of equipment. Last year this item was only $400 and I think there should be some explanation.


Robert Henry Winters: This item of $30,000 is to cover miscellaneous small items required by officials of the eastern Arctic patrol, and

includes the purchase of two 16 mm. film projectors; handicrafts; home economics; manual training; athletics; musical instruction; school equipment for the new school at Coppermine; school equipment for the new school at Pond Inlet; school equipment for another new school at Iglookik; equipment for seasonal schools, nursing stations, and additional equipment for five schools already established; it also includes six radios; six record players; fifteen film strip projectors; furnishings for three teachers' residences.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Those are all new projects this year?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Engineering and construction service-
380.	Engineering and construction services. $500,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Is this construction work carried on in the national parks? A lot of surveying and engineering work was done in connection with a bridge in the national park from Rustico harbour to Robinson's harbour, and then a roadway to the other end of Robinson's island with another bridge connecting with Covehead. I have not been able to get very much information with reference to this matter from the minister and I should like to know whether the surveying of this bridge has been completed and when construction of the bridge will start.


Robert Henry Winters: This is still a matter of discussion. The survey has not yet been made.


William Joseph Browne: Public accounts show that on March 31, 1949, there were 99 employees in this division.	The
estimates show that in 1949-50 there were 122 employees, and for 1950-51 the number is increased to 141. The cost has gone up from $304,000 in 1948-49 to $411,000 in 1949-50 to $500,000 for the current year. I think we should have an explanation when there is such a large increase in a vote like this.


Robert Henry Winters: For the period of years to which the hon. member referred there has been a considerable increase in the amount of work undertaken by these engineers. The figures I have show that for 1939-40 there was an amount of $1,896,456, with an engineering staff of 54. In 1949-50 this amount had increased to $10,176,778 with a staff of 122.


William Joseph Browne: I do not
think the minister understood me. I stated that according to the public accounts on March 31, 1949, only a year ago, there were

99 employees. The estimate last year was 122 and this year it is 141. The expenditure has gone down $1 million instead of going up.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, this department has been shorthanded for some time. We have been attempting to put our engineering work into better shape before contracts are let. It had been the practice in many instances to let contracts in national parks on some basis such as cost plus a fixed fee because the engineering staff simply was not available to undertake the necessary surveys to let contracts on a fixed cost basis. We are now making every attempt to get around that situation and develop our engineering staff to the point where engineering details and drawings can be made available before tenders are called so that contracts can be let on a fixed basis.


William Joseph Browne: Have you let any contracts this year?


Robert Henry Winters: We have let some contracts this year.


William Joseph Browne: Have they been let on a fixed cost basis or cost plus?


Robert Henry Winters: The contracts that have been called have been firm contracts in a sense but only in a sense. They have not been let on the basis of actual unit costs for quantities. They have been let on the basis of a firm price for fees and a firm price for rentals of the equipment involved, which is one of the big items in any road building contract.


William Joseph Browne: You have not stated they have been on a fixed cost basis.


Robert Henry Winters: No, I did not.


William Joseph Browne: Because we have been told in the public accounts committee that is a very rare thing.


Robert Henry Winters: The contracts let this year were, as I said, on the basis of a fixed fee plus fixed rentals for the equipment used in carrying out the contracts.


William Joseph Browne: Can you say
how many employees you have now in that division?


Robert Henry Winters: I am told that the number is a few less than the 141 shown in the estimates because there have been some transfers recently.


William Joseph Browne: You have some vacancies now.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Edmund Davie Fulton: As I understand it this amount is for work in the national parks. Why is it not included under the general item for
Supply-Resources and Development administration of the national parks for convenience of reference, or do they do other general work for the department as well?


Robert Henry Winters: They do other general work as well, especially in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. Perhaps I should read the explanation I have before me. The total increase is due mainly to (a) the inclusion of provision for general salary revisions and statutory increases; (b) provision for new positions and additional equipment, services, supplies, et cetera, as a result of the increased activities of the services required to cope with the expanded improvement and development program in the Northwest Territories, the Yukon and the national parks; (c) the constantly increasing price level which affects every service and commodity required in the administration of the various functions of the service.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Under temporary assistance there is an increase of about $60,000 over last year. The amount for temporary assistance is more than twice that for permanent positions. Can you explain that situation?


Robert Henry Winters: It is the practice of the department to hire most of these people on a temporary basis and hire them later on a permanent basis if they prove satisfactory. I think that is a common practice. At the present time there is a large percentage of temporary assistants.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: That would be for summer work?


Robert Henry Winters: Most of it is for summer work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Stony Rapids-Black lake road-
381.	Contribution to the cost of constructing a mining road between Stony Rapids and Black lake in Saskatchewan in accordance with the terms of an agreement to be entered into between Canada and the province of Saskatchewan (revote), $12,500.
George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, under what
statute is this item provided?


Robert Henry Winters: It is not a statute. It is a vote of parliament which enables this work to be done.


George Alexander Drew: There is no covering statute?


Robert Henry Winters: No.


George Alexander Drew: What is the agreement that is referred to?


Robert Henry Winters: It is an agreement between the government of Saskatchewan and the government of Canada for the carrying out of this work.

Supply-Resources and Development


Mr. Wrighl:: I should like to ask the minister what percentage this amount is of the total cost of building the road.


Robert Henry Winters: The total cost of the road is $37,500, and this is the federal government's share.


Percy Ellis Wright: Approximately one-third.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
382.	Cranberry Portage road-to provide funds for the 1950-51 contribution to the cost of section B, Cranberry Portage to Cuprus mines, of the proposed road between The Pas and Flin Flon in Manitoba, in accordance with the terms of the agreement between Canada and the province of Manitoba, dated September 30, 1948, $32,000.
George Alexander Drew: Item 382 is in the same position as 381. It is not covered by any statutory provision and refers to an agreement. This is the type of provision in the estimates that has been under discussion before. Since there are various provisions for highway construction in which the dominion government has some participation, I should like to know whether these are the same type of agreements or whether they are special agreements, and the nature of them. It is not the amount; it is the practice that is of importance.


Robert Henry Winters: This is an agreement entered into between the province of Manitoba and the Dominion of Canada for a road into Flin Flon. The terms of the agreement were that the cost of the road would be shared on a fifty-fifty basis up to a total expenditure on behalf of the federal government of $437,000. The $32,000 shown in the estimates is the balance of payment on behalf of the federal government.


George Alexander Drew: What I am interested in is why this provision for a mining road is not dealt with under the statute which deals with minings roads.


Robert Henry Winters: 
George Alexander Drew: There is assistance to mining roads.


Robert Henry Winters: I am told that to the best of the recollection of the officials before me there is no statute for mining roads.


George Alexander Drew: I do not want to extend the discussion. There is a practice-and perhaps it is also covered by votes-of assisting mining roads.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, there has been a practice, not by statute but by votes.


Percy Ellis Wright: What percentage is the $437,000 of the total cost of this road for which assistance has been given by the dominion government?


Robert Henry Winters: As I said, it is supposed to represent half the cost of the road. I understand that the total cost has overrun the anticipated figure with the result that the province of Manitoba will probably put up more money as its share than it expected.


Percy Ellis Wright: That is the point at issue. As a matter of fact the province of Saskatchewan agreed to build a road from Nipawin to Flin Flon in 1947, before the Manitoba government decided to build its road into this area. Saskatchewan spent half a million dollars in the construction of that road, building from both ends, but so far this government has not seen its way clear to contribute toward the cost of the construction of that road into this mining area.
Under the previous item, in connection with the construction of a road from Stony Rapids into Black lake, the minister stated that the share of the dominion would be one-third. I should like the minister to explain how he can justify giving assistance to one province to the extent of one-half the cost and to another province only one-third, and just why the province of Saskatchewan should be penalized as compared with the province of Manitoba in connection with the construction of a highway into the mining area of Flin Flon, when Saskatchewan was the first to commence construction of a road on its own account. It seems to me the dominion government should deal with the provinces on an equal basis.


Robert Henry Winters: Every effort is made to deal with the provinces on the same basis. Each project is different, and different circumstances exist. The project we discussed under item 381 was a three-way project involving a private company, the province of Saskatchewan and the federal government. Item 382 involves only two parties, the province of Manitoba and the federal government. That is why in one case there was a three-way split and in the other a two-way split.


Percy Ellis Wright: The company did not enter into the contract in Manitoba? I can see that in that case the company might not be brought . in, though the Black lake project was entirely for the benefit of the mines in that area. It was not intended to assist the general population of the area, because there just is not any population there at the present time. This is simply a road to move mining machinery into that area. Certainly the minister has not given an explanation that satisfies me as to why assistance should have been given Manitoba in connection with the construction of a road

to Flin Flon while Saskatchewan, the first province to commence the project, has not been assisted at all.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


Percy Ellis Wright: No, Mr. Chairman. I want some explanation from the minister of the different treatment as between the two provinces concerning assistance in constructing a highway to Flin Flon.


Robert Henry Winters: I can only repeat that every effort is made to deal with all provinces on the same basis. Certainly there is no discrimination for any reasons other than those arising out of the conditions surrounding a particular project. In the one case the road went through the heart of a mining area and opened up that area. While this was done before my time, I have reviewed the situation and I find nothing that could be construed as discrimination against the province of Saskatchewan. It was a matter of circumstance.


Percy Ellis Wright: There are no other mines along the highway that has been built from The Pas in Manitoba to Flin Flon. It does not open up any mining area; as a matter of fact the possibility of opening a mining area was as great in connection with the construction of the highway from Nipawin to Flin Flon as it was in the construction of the road in Manitoba. Certainly the explanation by the minister cannot be accepted, because the road from The Pas to Flin Flon does not open up any mining area. It is an old area, and the road pretty well follows the railway that was built from The Pas to Flin Flon a number of years ago. On the other hand the road from Nipawin to Flin Flon opens up new forest reserves and possibly new mining areas.


Mr. Weaver:: I think I can explain some of the statements just made by the hon. member for Melfort, who has said one or two things that are not quite accurate. In the first place the road from Nipawin to Flin Flon was not the first road to be started. The famous highway from The Pas to Flin Flon was under construction prior to the war, and on the outbreak of war was abandoned half way between The Pas and Cranberry Portage. Work was not commenced on it again until almost three years ago. So that deals with that point. With regard to mining areas, the province received no assistance until this road actually entered what is known as the pre-Cambrian shield at Cranberry Portage, and it is only thirty-eight miles from there to Flin Flon, for which this vote helps to pay. Saskatchewan received the same treatment. The highway from Nipawin to Flin Flon enters the pre-Cambrian shield approximately at a point known as Beaver Lake, and 55946-1971
Supply-Resources and Development as a result only fourteen miles of that road can qualify for this assistance. As to the proportion of cost I have not the actual figures, but the total cost of the road from The Pas to Flin Flon was in the neighbourhood of $1,250,000, which would make the contribution of this government a relatively small proportion of the total.


Percy Ellis Wright: If what the hon. member for Churchill has just said is correct I should like the minister to tell us how much his department paid Saskatchewan with respect to the fourteen miles that are said to be within the pre-Cambrian shield.


Robert Henry Winters: Subject to correction when I check the figures, which I do not have before me at the moment, it was something in the order of $50,000 or $60,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forestry branch-
383.	Administrative division, $70,000.
Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to ask the minister whether this is the point at which to bring up a question concerning a contract referred to in the last report of the public accounts committee. It has to do with the report of the Auditor General for 1948-49, dealing with the Department of Mines and Resources, at page 20, where the Auditor General commented as follows:
Order in council P.C. 5510 of November 30, 1946, authorized a contract for the construction of a "temporary building for the forest products laboratories" at Ottawa, the cost to be $50,200. Payments in the year amounted to $40,713. Attention is drawn to the transaction because the building has been erected on rented property, the lease for which expires on April 30, 1950.
That was a month ago yesterday.
The property has been under continuous lease by the crown since 1927. The file discloses that the owner, on August 30, 1948, consented to the erection of the building on the condition that if the crown vacated the premises and removed the building, "any excavations will be filled in and the ground restored to its present condition at the expiration of the existing lease or any renewal of same . . ."
Would the minister tell us the position with respect to the renewal of the lease which expired on April 30 of this year and what provision is in the renewed lease, if there is one, with respect to the removal of the building?


Robert Henry Winters: That is a matter of contract being negotiated by my colleague the Minister of Public Works, who is generally responsible for the accommodation in which the rest of us work.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I see it in the Auditor General's report to parliament under the Department of Mines and Resources. If the present minister has no information on the matter, I could wait until we reached the estimates of the

Supply-Resources and Development Department of Public Works. Is that the position? Has the present minister no information on the matter?


Robert Henry Winters: That is the position.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I wonder what I should do, Mr. Chairman. I certainly should like to follow this matter up. Should I ask that the item be allowed to stand until the minister can get the information?


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. gentleman is speaking of an expenditure which appears in the Auditor General's report. I do not know about this matter; I have not any information on it, but I will try to get any information he wishes to have. If I rightly understood what was just read, we put up a building on rented property. I am under the impression that the building is still there and occupied. If we have not renewed the lease, I hope we will come to some agreement with the owner, because we do not generally build on rented property without some guarantee or some assurance that we will have a renewal of the lease. I will try to get all the information the hon. gentleman wishes.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What I am asking now, Mr. Chairman, is to be told the proper place to discuss the matter and to obtain the information. It seems to me that the item now before us would be the place to do it, because it is not in the estimates of the Department of Public Works.


Alphonse Fournier: I think there is some confusion, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member is speaking of an expenditure, and what the minister is asking for is a vote on an estimate for this fiscal year. Any questions as to expenditure we can answer, I am sure.
I have not the story ready right now.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Alphonse Fournier: It is the first time I have heard about it, but I am fairly sure that I could get a good story from my officials. We do not spend the public's money without having assurance that it is well spent. But I can give all the information the hon. member wishes on my estimates, or I can try to get it before that time.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to be quite clear on this point. I am quite sure that the Minister of Public Works can get an explanation. But while it is an expenditure, my view is that one of our duties in examining the estimates for the current year is to compare what is asked for this year with what has been spent previously, and that has been the practice as we go along. At the moment all I am asking is what would be the correct 
procedure. I think this matter should be discussed in the committee; but should it not be discussed under the Department of Resources and Development, or do I take it from the statement of the Minister of Public Works that he will allow us to discuss it on his estimates?


Alphonse Fournier: Certainly. If we in public works spent that money, you will certainly have all the time you wish to discuss it in committee on my estimates.


Mr. Casselman:: What about the chairman? Will he agree to that?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Who did spend the money?


Alphonse Fournier: If I correctly understand it, it is under his estimates. We probably had a transfer of funds in the putting up of this building. We are responsible for putting up the building and renting the land. I am glad the hon. gentleman has given me this advance notice so that I will be well prepared when he brings the matter before the committee on my estimates.


George Alexander Drew: This whole group of estimates covers undoubtedly one of the most important activities of the new department whose estimates are under consideration. This afternoon the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe raised a point that I believe should be given earnest consideration and one which calls for a plan of co-operative effort between this department and the provincial departments which are handling the problem of forest protection, particularly the prevention of fires. This subject was discussed briefly on an earlier occasion. I wish, however, to emphasize the point that no matter how carefully plans may be drawn to ensure the perpetuity of the forest crop by the ordinary cutting methods, those plans will be defeated and there will be continuity of the forest threat unless more effective measures can be taken to prevent the tremendous devastation by fire that occurs each year. It is doubtful whether it is possible to prevent fires, but there is no question about it that a large percentage of all fires are preventable and a large percentage of all fires can be stopped in the early stages if the proper steps are taken just after the fire has broken out.
The prevention of fire is something that can well be considered on a wider basis than a division of areas by provinces. Some of the provinces now have effective fire protection services of their own. Other provinces are not able to maintain the fleet of aircraft necessary for that purpose. There is not a single province, however, that would not benefit greatly by some arrangement under

which highly-trained firefighters could be carried quickly into threatened areas far from roads and far from ordinary water communication, and dropped by parachute. For that purpose it would seem to me that a plan of co-operation with the Royal Canadian Air Force could be worked out under which various commandos could be trained to go into any area where fires have broken out as a result of lightning or from other causes, and where they are remote from ordinary direct access.
I do not want any suggestion to be made that I am proposing that the Department of Resources and Development attempt to supplant, or in any way to enter into the field of direct responsibility of, the provincial departments. I feel sure, however, that the provincial departments would welcome some plan which would make it possible to fly in either their own or other trained men to some of these areas, with aircraft in the possession of the Royal Canadian Air Force which could do a job that the highly effective but smaller aircraft of the various protection services are not able to do.
This whole problem is one that goes beyond that of protection of the forests themselves. This department has under its administration the encouragement of travel into this country. Right at the present time there are a number of areas in different parts of Canada where travel is prohibited because of fires, even at this early season. This therefore is a matter of direct concern not only from the point of view of protection of the forests for commercial services but also because of its effect upon the tourist business. Once again I am placing before the minister the importance of a plan whereby the transport aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force could be brought into operation under some cooperative arrangement, and whereby they could fly, into areas not otherwise accessible, parachute firefighters with special equipment who could drop in and do this job. It is not any new suggestion over here, nor is it a suggestion of something that has not worked. It is being worked today very successfully in a number of areas in the United States.
I make this proposal to supplement what has already been said by the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe as to the immense importance of taking every step possible to prevent loss by fire, which actually is eating up more wood than all the industries that are producing so much in dollars at this time.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
Supply-Resources and Development BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Mr. Fournier (Hull):	Mr. Speaker, as
arranged some time ago, tomorrow we will have a discussion on freight rates under item 524 of the Department of Transport. Then we shall try to dispose of the few items that are left in that department. I understand there are a few left. We hope to conclude the estimates of the Department of Resources and Development and then we shall proceed with the estimates of veterans affairs and citizenship and immigration.


[Stage Direction]
At 11.03 o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
A-Department
[Stage Direction]
358.	Departmental administration, $370,640. Development services branch-
359.	Branch administration, $55,215.
Water resources division-
360.	Water resources division, including the administration of the Dominion Water Power and Irrigation Acts, and including grant of $350 to the international executive council, world power conference, $541,766.
361.	To provide for studies and surveys of the Columbia river watershed in Canada, $380,000.
362.	Lake of the Woods control board, $12,480.
363.	To provide for the expenses incurred under the agreement between Canada, Ontario and Manitoba, confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928, moneys to expended to be largely reimbursed, $17,750.
364.	To provide for excavation of a flood channel at Dalles rapids in Winnipeg river in Ontario to reduce flooding of riparian property affected by regulation under the Lake of the Woods Control Board Act (revote), $60,000.
Wildlife division-
365.	Wildlife resources conservation and development, including administration of Migratory Birds Convention Act, $300,000.
National parks and historic sites division-
366.	National parks and historic sites services, $10,138,886.
367.	Trans-Canada highway-surveys of route in Banff and Yoho national parks, $25,000.
368.	Grant to the Jack Miner Migratory Bird Foundation, $5,000.
369.	Grant to aid in the development of the international peace garden in Manitoba, $15,000.
370.	National Museum of Canada, $250,000.
371.	Lands division-administration of dominion, ordnance and admiralty, and public lands; seed grain collections, $282,200.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Resources and Development
Northern administrations-
372.	Administration, $151,000.
Mackenzie river division-
373.	Operation and maintenance of services, including Wood Buffalo park, $678,415.
374.	Forest conservation, including Wood Buffalo park, $337,295.
375.	Roads, buildings and other works, as detailed in the estimates, $715,450.
Yukon division-
376.	Operation and maintenance of services, including forest conservation, $174,500.
377.	Roads, buildings and other works, as detailed in the estimates, $2,741,000.
Arctic division-
378.	Operation and maintenance of services, including Eskimo affairs, $300,935.
379.	Buildings and other works, as detailed in the estimates, $35,000.
Engineering and construction service-
380.	Engineering and construction services, $500,000.
381.	Stony Rapids-Black lake road-contribution to the cost of construction a mining road between Stony Rapids and Black lake in Saskatchewan in accordance with the terms of an agreement to be entered into between Canada and the province of Saskatchewan (revote), $12,500.
382.	Cranberry Portage road-to provide funds for
the 1950-51 contribution to the cost of section B, Cranberry Portage to Cuprus Mines, of the proposed road between The Pas and Flin Flon in Manitoba, in accordance with the terms of the agreement between Canada and the province of Manitoba, dated September 30, 1948, $32,000.	,
[Stage Direction]
Friday, June 2, 1950