1950-03-22

Hon. Humphrey Mitchell (Minister of Labour):: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I should like to correct a statement made yesterday in reply to the hon. member for St. John's West (Mr. Browne) appearing at page 978 of Hansard. I spoke with the hon. member after the sitting concluded. I said that twenty per cent of the people unemployed in Canada reside in the province of Newfoundland. I intended to say that approximately twenty per cent of the employable people of Newfoundland are unemployed. The employable population of Newfoundland is approximately 112,000. The total number of those registered for employment wnh our national employment service offices at March 2 was 18,600, so the actual percentage is 17. I was using the approximate percentage. I might add that 13,700 of these persons seeking work are either in receipt of unemployment assistance or insurance benefits, or are waiting for their claims to be processed. The total expenditure on this account for the month of March will be almost $1 million.



STRAIT OF CANSO BRIDGE


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport):: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement on the strait of Canso bridge.
In March, 1949, the board of engineers which was appointed to review plans for the betterment of transportation facilities across the strait of Canso submitted their final report, in which it was recommended that a low level bridge for both highway and railway traffic should be constructed at an estimated total cost of $13,503,128. In May of the same year the Department of Transport entered into a contract with P. L. Pratley, consulting engineer of Montreal, Quebec, for the design and supervision of construction of the bridge on a fixed fee basis.
Dr. Pratley immediately established his necessary staff in order to carry out field and office investigations leading to the award of
a contract for the construction of the bridge. A contract was awarded to Foundation Maritime Limited for eight borings on the bridge site in order to establish definite foundation conditions. These borings were completed in the first week of September of last year. Negotiations were carried out by Dr. Pratley with both the province of Nova Scotia and the Canadian National Railways in order to establish the final location of the bridge and other factors.
The report of the board of engineers adopted a clear roadway width of 22 feet between curbs for the highway portion of the bridge. Contract plans and specifications were undertaken by Dr. Pratley on this basis.
The dominion-provincial conference on trans-Canada highways, at their meetings in Ottawa on December 15 and 16 last, adopted a minimum roadway width between curbs of 24 feet for all bridges in excess of 30 feet in length which were to be constructed as part of the highway system. As a result of the adoption of this standard, further negotiations were undertaken with the province in order to determine their wishes in respect of the roadway width of the Canso bridge in the light of the standard as adopted by the conference. Their attention was drawn to the fact that an increase in width from 22 to 24 feet would result in an increase in cost of approximately two per cent of the original total estimate and would also delay the calling for tenders for the work by three or four months due to the necessity of a complete redesign of the steel superstructure and foundations.
Under date of February 24, 1950, I received a letter from the Hon. Angus L. Macdonald, premier of Nova Scotia, in which he informed me that, while he agreed that the insistence of 24 feet would delay the undertaking, he considered that the bridge should be designed for a roadway width of 24 feet between curbs to allow for a reasonable safety factor in highway travel on the structure. On receipt of this letter, Dr. Pratley was informed by my office to immediately change his plans and specifications to conform to this standard.
Previous to this change, it was anticipated that final plans and specifications would have been ready to call for tenders on construction in March of this year with actual construction beginning by August or September. As matters now stand, it will not be possible to call

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for tenders until July, with actual construction work on the main piers deferred until early next spring. It is expected, however, that during this year the province will undertake work on the highway approaches on the Cape Breton side of the bridge, and likewise the Canadian National Railways will undertake the necessary revisions to railway lines on the island leading to the proposed structure.


Mr. Cruickshank:: May I ask the minister a question in connection with this statement? How many people will this bridge serve?


Lionel Chevrier: It is not a question of serving people; it is a question of connecting the mainland of Nova Scotia with Cape Breton island, by means of a provincial highway. The Canadian National railways will also operate over this bridge.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the pipe line also?



STAFF OF SERGEANT-AT-ARMS  ONTARIO WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION

Mr. James Sinclair (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: Last evening the member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) asked the Minister of Finance whether the staff of the Sergeant-at-Arms was covered by the Ontario Workmen's Compensation Act. The answer is yes.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fulton:: 1.	At what points have electric slide detector fences been installed on the Canadian National Railways line in British Columbia?
2.	What other safety warning devices against rocks and slides have been installed?
3.	Have any reports been received on the operation of these installations?
4.	Do the reports indicate that these types of installations are satisfactory for the purpose of giving warning of rocks and slides?
5: If not, in what way are they unsatisfactory?
6. What further or other installations for this purpose are contemplated, and when is it expected the work on them may begin?


Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	A test installation of 1,720 feet of slide detector fences has been made on the Ashcroft subdivision between mileages 93-7 and 94-0.
2.	In selected areas there is provided a twenty-four-hour inspection service by watchmen and patrolmen. Automatic signals have also been installed in certain sections to better facilitate train operations.
tMr. Chevrier.]
3.	Yes.
4.	Not in so far as slide detector fences are concerned.
5.	Difficulty is experienced in keeping slide detector fences in service at periods of heavy snowfall and of interference from snow slides.
6.	Additional installations of slide detector fences will be considered after reviewing results achieved from experimental installations.


NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: What amount has been collected in Newfoundland during the eleven-month period ending February 28, for (a) excise duties; (b) custom duties;
(c)	income taxes; (d) succession duties?


Mr. McCann:: (a) Excise taxes, $2,646,306.08; excise duties, $1,222,467.02; total, $3,868,773.10; (b) customs import duties, $3,011,714.12; (c) $3,446,248;
(d)	$30,990.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Mr. Isnor:: 1.	What quantity of coal (a) Canadian; (b) United States, was purchased by the Canadian National Railways in the years 1947, 1948, 1949?
2.	Of orders placed, what quantities of (a) Canadian; (b) United States, coal were delivered in each of these years?
3.	What are the names of coal suppliers (a) Canadian; (b) American?
4.	Have coal orders for years 1950 and 1951 been placed as yet?
5.	If so, for what quantity in (a) Canada; (b) United States?


Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Orders were placed as follows:
Canadian United States
N.T.	N.T.
1947	
2,349,400	8,692,9001948	
2,822,700	6,936,2001949	
2,515,200	4,223,1002.	Canadian United StatesN.T.	N.T.1947	
1,733,300	6,192,2001948	
2,123,600	5,376,5001949	
2,237,800	3,022,3003.	For competitive reasons it is not in the general interest to provide the names of individual suppliers.4.	Contracts involving prospective deliveries in 1950 are still under negotiation. No orders have been placed for 1951.5.	See answer to No. 4.



Mr. Knowles:: 1.	How many retired employees of the Canadian National Railways are in receipt of pensions of less than $25 per month?
2.	How many are in receipt of only the basic pension of $25 per month?
3.	How many are in receipt of non-contributory service pensions (a) $25.01 to $29.99 per month; (b) $30 to $39.99 per month; (c) $40 to $49.99 per month; (d) $50 to $59.99 per month; (e) $60 to $69.99 per month; (f) $70 to 79.99 per month; (g) $80.00 to $89.99 per month; (h) $90 to $99.99 per month; (i) $100 or over per month?
4.	How many retired employees of the Canadian National Railways are in receipt of pensions in part basic and in part contributory (a) $25.01 to $29.99 per month; (b) $30 to $39.99 per month; (c) $40 to $49.99 per month; (d) $50 to $59.99 per month; (e) $60 to $69.99 per month; (f) $70 to $79.99 per month; (g) $80 to $89.99 per month; (h) $90 to $99.99 per month; (i) $100 or over per month?


Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Thirty-one under C.N.R. prior plan.
2.	2,952.
3.	(a) $25.01 to $29.99 per month, 845; (b) $30 to $39.99 per month, 655; (c) $40 to $49.99 per month, 347; (d) $50 to $59.99 per month, 234; (e) $60 to $69.99 per month, 155; (f) $70 to $79.99 per month, 107; (g) $80 to $89.99 per month, 63; (h) $90 to $99.99 per month, 48; (i) $100 or over per month, 121-Total 2,575.
4.	(a) $25.01 to $29.99 per month, 450; (b) $30 to $39.99 per month, 2,064; (c) $40 to $49.99 per month, 1,588; (d) $50 to $59.99 per month, 1,135; (e) $60 to $69.99 per month, 896; (f) $70 to $79.99 per month, 751; (g) $80 to $89.99 per month, 652; (h) $90 to $99.99 per month, 513; (i) $100 or over per month, 1,806-Total, 9,855.


Mr. Knowles:: 1.	What is the total number of persons employed by the Canadian National Railways?
2.	Of these, how many are eligible to contribute toward a supplemental pension in addition to the basic pension of $25 per month to which they will be entitled on retirement at age 65?
3.	How many are now contributing toward such a supplemental pension?
4.	How many Canadian National Railways employees, upon retirement, will qualify, according to their present status for non-contributory service pensions?
5.	How many employees now working for the Canadian National Railways will be entitled on retirement, according to their present status, to only the basic pension of $25 per month?
6.	Is the basic pension of $25 per month available to all employees, and, if so, on what conditions?


Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	On Canadian lines at December 31, 1949, 103,939.
2.	All except temporary employees and those who commenced after age fifty-five and those who are now contributing to other
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railway pension funds, viz.: 5,091 contributors to Intercolonial provident fund and 18 contributors to Grand Trunk Railway superannuation fund.
3.	Contributors to C.N.R. pension plan, 37,702; contributors to I.C.R. and P.E.I. provident fund, 5,091; contributors to G.T.R. superannuation and provident fund association, 18.
4.	Service pensions are payable to employees who entered the service before attaining age fifty who at December 31, 1934, had at least ten years' allowable service and at age sixty-five have at least fifteen years' allowable service. It is not possible to say how many employees will meet these requirements.
5.	There is no record of the number of employees who on retirement will be entitled to only the basic pension of $25 per month. Approximately only 35 per cent of eligible employees are contributing to a supplementary pension.
6.	Basic pensions are payable to: (a) employees who entered the service before December 31, 1934, who had less than ten years' allowable service at that date and who have at least fifteen years' allowable service at age sixty-five; (b) employees who entered the service after December 31, 1934, at not over age forty-five and who at age sixty-five have at least twenty years' allowable service.


VETERANS AFFAIRS-ASSAULTS ON OFFICIALS
Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Was a D.V.A. official shot and wounded by a veteran of the first world war at Port Arthur recently?
2.	If so, what are the names of the official and the veteran concerned?
3.	Is the veteran in receipt of a disability pension? If so, for what disabilities and what degree of disability in each case?
4.	What was the subject of discussion, or the ostensible purpose of the visit, between the veteran and the D.V.A. official on this occasion?
5.	Has the minister or the department any information as to the grievance which caused the veteran to act as he did? If so, what are the facts in this connection?
6.	How many assaults with or without shooting have been made on D.V.A. or Canadian pension commission officials by veterans since the end of the war in 1945, and where did these take place?


Mr. Mutch:: 1.	Yes.
2.	C. H. H. Moss; A. J. N. Gagnon.
3.	No.
4.	Discussion with respect to the reinstatement of war veterans allowance.
5.	Yes. War veterans allowance was approved at the maximum permissive single rate of $40.41 per month, effective July 16,

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1948, the date the application form was received at the district office of the department in Winnipeg. On October 7, 1948, the veteran commenced employment as barn boss with the Long Lac Pulp and Paper Company, Long Lac, at a gross wage of $7.35 per day.
As he was thus employed and self-supporting, war veterans allowance was not indicated and was suspended as from the date of commencement of his employment.
War veterans allowance had been paid up to November 30, 1948, thereby creating an overpayment of $73, which Mr. Gagnon refunded.
His employment with the Long Lac Pulp and Paper Company terminated on February 8, 1949, and he immediately applied for reinstatement to war veterans allowance.
It was computed that his gross earnings during the above period of employment totalled approximately $900. After paying for his room and board, laundry, etc., during his employment, he had $600 cash remaining according to his declaration dated February 11, 1949, and this was the amount which the board took into account, as his earnings rather than the gross amount of $900, when considering his application for reinstatement to war veterans allowance.
Furthermore, from these earnings of $600 an additional exemption of $125 was allowed for various incidental expenses, such as transportation, extra essential clothing, etc., and the amount finally taken into account as net earnings was $475.
On the basis of a veterans allowance year commencing October 7, 1948, the date of commencement of the veteran's employment with the Long Lac Company, his income position was as follows:
Net earnings October 7, 1948 to February 8, 1949, $475; balance available for W.V.A. $135; total, $610; and war veterans allowance was reinstated at the rate of $18.76 per month, effective March 1, 1949, which, with his earnings, would have provided Mr. Gagnon with the maximum income permissive under the War Veterans Allowance Act during the veterans allowance year commencing October 7, 1948.
Then, under date of June 19, 1949, Mr. Gagnon advised that he had been working since June 1, 1949, but did not know how he would be able to keep it up. He stated that he could not maintain himself on $18.76 a month and so was obliged to work.
The letter was addressed from a depot of the Marathon Paper Mills, signifying that this company must be his employers.

As he was again employed and self-supporting, payment of war veterans allowance was cancelled effective June 1, 1949, and, in the communication to Mr. Gagnon informing him of the cancellation, he was also informed that if and when his present work ceased he was at liberty to apply through the district office of the Department of Veterans Affairs in Winnipeg for reconsideration.
This letter, which was dated July 18, 1949, was addressed to Mr. Gagnon care of Marathon Paper Mills, Caramat depot, Ontario, but, as he had left the employ of that company in the meantime, it was unclaimed and returned to the war veterans allowance board, and in August, 1949, was forwarded to the district office in Winnipeg with the request that it be forwarded on to Mr. Gagnon at his right address.
Under date of September 8, 1949, the district office in Winnipeg advised that the veteran's correct address was then care of Mrs. Ernest Gagnon, Ste. Amelie, Manitoba, and that the board's letter dated July 18, 1949, had been forwarded to that address.
On December 12, 1949, Mr. Gagnon called at the department's office in Port Arthur requesting immediate payment of war veterans allowance. He was again advised that it would be necessary to reapply, but he wanted to know what he was supposed to do in the meantime, remarked that the government could keep the allowance, and walked out. The war veterans allowance board heard nothing of the case between the time of reforwarding the letter of July 18, 1949, and Mr. Gagnon's visit to the Port Arthur office on February 10, 1950.
6.	There have been two cases of assault with shooting. Other minor incidents, due to over-indulgence in alcohol or other causes, have occurred, but no statistical record has been maintained by the department.


CRIMINAL CODE
Mr. Higgins:: What steps are being taken to make the provisions of the Criminal Code applicable to Newfoundland?


Mr. Garson:: 
IRRIGATION
Mr. Diefenbaker:: What have been the expenditures month by month since the first day of July, 1949, to date, on the South Saskatchewan river irrigation and development plan?


Mr. McCubbin:: July	 $ 136,637.76
August	 94,877.96
September	 74,700.99
October	 100,891.61
November	 91,527.62
December	 79,964.10
January	 50,052.72
February	 53,363.35

Expenditure prior to July, 1949	567,802.30
Expenditure to date	 $1,249,818.41


FISHERIES
Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelburne):: 1.	Have steps been taken towards setting up a joint committee representing the departments of fisheries, transport, and national defence, for the purpose of unifying and improving the coastal protection service?
2.	If so, has such a committee been set up?
3.	Has the committee been instructed to investigate improvements in the protective service for fishermen?
4.	If so, will consideration be given to the provision of a radio-equipped and all-weather sea rescue and emergency towing service for small fishing craft?
5.	When will the recommendations of this committee be made known, and when will action be taken to implement such recommendations?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	Yes.
2.	An interdepartmental committee has been set up to review the present arrangements for search and rescue and to make recommendations for improved and more efficient service.
3.	The search and rescue is intended to cover all seafarers operating off the Canadian coasts.
4.	The terms of reference of this committee quoted in answer 2 above are sufficiently embracing to cover this consideration.
5.	The recommendations of this committee will shortly be available when the action required to implement them will be considered.
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Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
Total tonnage (all traffic) handled at North Sydney in 1949 amounted to 64,129 tons. Considerable time and labour would be involved in order to ascertain tonnage handled between North Sydney and Port aux Basques as this would require the examination of waybills of every inward and outward shipment between the mainland and Newfoundland.


CENTRAL MORTGAGE AND HOUSING
[Stage Direction]
. HEIGHTS, VANCOUVER
Mr. Green:: 1.	What was the cost of building the houses constructed for Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in what is known as Renfrew heights in the city of Vancouver?
2.	What was the cost of servicing this development by installing services, sewers, water, paved roads and other services?
3.	Do either of these costs include any allowance for overhead or operating cost of the corporation?
4.	If so, what amount?


Mr. Prudham:: 1.	Building cost, $3,512,578.35; unit cost, $5,994.16.
2.
Sewer, water and
gas	 658,610.69
Street lighting ...	2,251.48
Sidewalks, curbs
and gutters .... 144,894.41
Street paving	 109,041.09

 914,797.67
Land and land improvements (including an amount of $10,000 representing the unexpended portion of the contract to landscape the project)	 538,562.02
1,453,359.69
3.	Yes. Construction overhead cost is included in building cost.
4.	$64,460.


RESTRICTIONS ON CANADIANS WITH DIPLOMATIC STATUS IN U.S.S.R.
Mr. Adamson:: 1.	How many Canadians are at the present time employed with diplomatic status in the U.S.S.R.?
2.	What restrictions are placed on our diplomats in the U.S.S.R.?
3.	How are their movements restricted?


Mr. Pearson:: 


FREIGHT TONNAGE THROUGH NORTH SYDNEY VIA PORT AUX BASQUES, NFLD.
Gordon Francis Higgins: What was the total tonnage of freight routed through North Sydney via Port aux Basques in 1949?
1.	Four.
2 and 3. The principal restriction on Canadian diplomats in the U.S.S.R. is an order of the Soviet foreign ministry of September 30, 1948, prohibiting foreign diplomats in Moscow from travelling to a very large number of

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places beyond a radius of 50 kilometres from Moscow, and most localities within that area. The list of places includes the Soviet Socialist republics of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia, Finno-Karelia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Turkmenia, Uzbekia, Kirghizia, Tajikistan, Kazakstan, and most of the Ukraine and Byelorussia, including Kiev and Minsk, the capitals of the two latter republics, which are, it will be recalled, members of the United Nations.
Some areas still remain accessible to foreign diplomats on condition that advance information about the proposed journey is given to the Soviet foreign ministry. Since the Soviet order was issued some members of the staff of the Canadian embassy in Moscow have been permitted to travel to Yaroslavl and Rybinsk, Kuibishev and Stalingrad.
This seems to be the only formal restriction placed by the Soviet authorities on our diplomats in Moscow but many Soviet administrative requirements, which are unobjectionable in principle, are applied in a restrictive and hampering fashion.
There are also restrictions placed on Soviet citizens in their dealings with all foreigners, including diplomats, such as the decree of December 18, 1947, regulating the relations between Soviet officials and foreigners.
Finally the hostile attitude of the Soviet government and the Soviet press has had the effect of convincing the citizens of the U.S.S.R., with few exceptions, that association with foreigners is dangerous, and hence the usual contacts of diplomats with ordinary people, and even Soviet officials, are greatly restricted.


RESTRICTIONS ON CANADIANS WITH DIPLOMATIC STATUS IN CERTAIN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES
Mr. Adamson:: 1.	How many Canadians are at the present time
employed with diplomatic status in each of the following countries:	(a) Hungary:	(b) Bulgaria;
(c) Albania; (d) Roumania; (e) Czechoslovakia; (f) Poland: (g) Yugoslavia?
2.	What restrictions are placed on them?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	(a) Nil; (b) nil; (c) nil; (d) nil; (e) three; (f) three (g) three.
2.	No formal restrictions are placed on our diplomats in Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia. But the same considerations mentioned with regard to the U.S.S.R. also apply in varying degrees to Czechoslovakia and Poland. It is not so much a question of carefully spelled out restrictions on our diplomats, as a general campaign by the governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia among their peoples to make it unhealthy for them to

associate with foreigners. For example, the expulsion by the Czechoslovak government of two non-diplomatic members of the air attache's staff in Prague was apparently motivated by a desire to get rid of two foreigners who had built up over two years a small circle of Czech friends.
So far our diplomats have escaped the more drastic treatment which has been recently meted out to some other representatives of the western powers in the satellite countries, but there has been pressure on our locally-employed staff in Czechoslovakia. One Czech clerk at the Canadian legation in Prague failed to report for work one day. All that has been learned of him since then was that he had been "detained by the police" and that he was in the local prison where political offenders are usually held. Another Czech clerk was refused a permit to continue working at the legation.
The cumulative effect is, of course, to isolate the western diplomatic missions from contact with the peoples of the countries where they are stationed, and to restrict very considerably the normal functioning of a diplomatic mission.


CANADIAN TRADE OR CULTURAL AGENCIES IN CERTAIN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES
Mr. Adamson:: Are there any Canadian trade or cultural organizations operating in any of the following countries: (a)	U.S.S.R.;	(b) Hungary; (c) Bulgaria; (d)
Albania; (e) Czechoslovakia; (f) Poland:	(e)
Yugoslavia?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Canada maintains diplomatic missions in the U.S.S.R., Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia. These missions have, among their other duties, the task of trying to develop trade and cultural relations in so far as this is possible in existing conditions with the countries where they are located. Canada does not maintain any missions in Hungary, Bulgaria and Albania.



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION


Mr. Wright:: 1.	Have any surveys been made by P.F.R.A. along the Saskatchewan or Carrot rivers in northeastern Saskatchewan or northwestern Manitoba, with a view to preventing flooding or reclaiming flooded land in these areas?
2.	If so, what reports or recommendations to the government were made, as a result of these surveys?
3.	If not, will the government give consideration to having this work done?


Mr. McCubbin:: 1.	Yes, with a view to determining whether land can be reclaimed or flooding prevented.
2.	Surveys not yet completed.
3.	See answers to Nos. 1 and 2.



MERCHANT MARINE


Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelburne):: 1.	What are the qualifications for the granting of a subsidy for Canadian merchant marine vessels whose owners desire to continue to operate under the Canadian flag?
2.	In view of the employment situation in Nova Scotia, will every consideration be given to Nova Scotia ships operating in the foreign trade with Nova Scotia crew members?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	The financial relief which it is proposed to grant the shipping industry is temporary and for one year only.
To qualify, ship owners must agree (a) to operate vessels for a period of one year; (b) to employ Canadian domiciled crews.
It is anticipated that some forty vessels will be assisted, and these will be selected on the basis of their usefulness to Canada in the event of an emergency. The employment of Canadian domiciled crews will ensure the maintenance in Canada of a nucleus of trained merchant seamen to man these and other ships which Canada may have at her disposal should a state of emergency arise.
2.	Yes, every consideration. It must be borne in mind that the employment of seamen from any particular area will to a large extent depend upon the owners' and operators' desire to avail themselves of the assistance afforded by the government.



* INCREASES IN BASIC STEEL PRICES

Mr. Maclnnis:: What increases were allowed in the price of basic steel from the establishment of price controls to date?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: It is not possible to answer this question as asked. I understand the hon. member has been given the information he was really seeking, and is agreeable to dropping the question.


Donald MacInnis: Yes, Mr. Speaker.


Mr. Speaker:: Question dropped.



EMIGRATION FROM NEWFOUNDLAND TO UNITED STATES

Gordon Francis Higgins: How many Newfoundland residents have entered the United States to take up permanent residence since April 1, 1949?


Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):: Information is not available, as statistics are not maintained of emigration from Canada.



IMPORTS FROM UNITED STATES

Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	How many bushels of American corn have been imported by Canada since January 1, 1949?
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2.	Has any of this corn been stored in elevator space allotted for the purpose by the Canadian wheat board?
3.	Who owns this corn?
4.	At what prices was this corn bought from the United States?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1.	Imports of corn from the United States entered for consumption into Canada, calendar year, 1949, 8,436,319 bushels.
2.	Yes. Imports of American corn for consumption in Canada are unrestricted. However, the Canadian wheat board maintains a liaison with the terminals to ensure that American grain, including corn received into Canadian terminals for storage and furtherance for export, does not unduly interfere with the movement of Canadian grain. The use of Canadian facilities for the handling of American grain including com is encouraged, provided that the movement of Canadian grain is not prejudiced.
3.	Owned by private companies and individuals.
4.	Not known, but the total declared value of the imports listed in answer No. 1 is $12,282,307.



YUKON COAL PRODUCTION


Mr. Green:: 1.	What amount was provided by the government, and by what department of government, for the development of coal in Yukon during the past five years?
2.	To what corporation or person was such amount paid?
3.	On what terms was such amount provided?
4.	What amount of said advance has been returned to the government?
5.	What tonnage of coal has been produced from the operation so assisted?
6.	What tonnage of coal is still available to be mined at said mine?


Mr. McCann:: Questions



WHEAT BOARD


Mr. Quelch:: 1.	How many inspectors are employed by the Canadian wheat board in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba?
2.	Is a Mr. R. Mahoney, formerly manager of the Manitoba wheat pool, still employed by the wheat board? If so, in what capacity?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1. 11.
2.	No.



YACHT &quot;SANS PEUR&quot;


Mr. Herridge:: 1.	Was the Duke of Sutherland's yacht Sans Peur requisitioned by the Canadian government for service in world war II?
2.	If so, was this yacht delivered to Canadian government completely furnished with silverware, crockery, linen, rugs, and furniture?
3.	Were these furnishings returned to the owner when the vessel was returned?
4.	If not, what disposition was made of these furnishings?
5.	Was compensation paid to the owner for loss or damage, if any, of these furnishings?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	No. The Sans Peur was chartered from the British ministry of war transport, from whom the ship was subsequently purchased by this department.
2.	No. Only crockery and furniture used by the ship's officers and crew were taken over with the ship.
3.	No. See answers to Nos. 1 and 2.
4.	Crockery and furniture taken over with the ship were used in the ship or elsewhere in the naval service.
5.	Answered by No. 1.



U.S.S.R. EMBASSY IN CANADA    PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES

Mr. Adamson:: 1.	How many persons enjoying diplomatic privileges are accredited to the embassy of the U.S.S.R. in Canada?
2.	What privileges- and- immunities do they enjoy?
3.	What restrictions, if any, are placed on their movements in Canada?
4.	What are their names?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	Eight.
2.	The immunities and privileges prescribed by international law, namely: immunity of domicile and from criminal and civil jurisdiction; general exemption from direct and personal taxation, where such exemption is administratively feasible.
3.	They are not, of course, permitted to visit classified establishments and areas such as
Chalk River. Moreover, since our service attaches in the Soviet union are not invited to certain soviet military functions, we have reciprocated by placing similar restrictions on soviet service attaches in Canada.
4.	Mr. Mikhail V. Degtiar, counsellor and charge d'affaires ad interim; Mr. Alexei Sokolov, first secretary; Lt.-Col. Grigori Volochko, assistant military attache; Mr. V. P. Bourdine, second secretary; Mr. Dmitri Moussine, second secretary; Capt. Ivan V. Poupychev, assistant military attache; Mr. Pavel Komine, attache; Mr. Valentin Voro-biev, attache.



FOREIGN LEGATIONS IN CANADA


Mr. Adamson:: 1.	How many persons enjoying diplomatic privileges are accredited to the legations of each of the following countries (a) Hungary; (b) Bulgaria; (c) Roumania; (d) Albania; (e) Czechoslovakia; (f) Poland; (g) Yugoslavia?
2.	What immunities and privileges do they enjoy?
3.	What restrictions, if any, are placed on their movements in Canada?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	(a) Hungary, nil; (b) Bulgaria, nil; (c) Roumania, nil; (d) Albania, nil; (e) Czechoslovakia, 2; (f) Poland, 4; (g) Yugoslavia, 5.
2.	The immunities and privileges prescribed by international law, namely: immunity of domicile and from criminal and civil jurisdiction; general exemption from direct and personal taxation, where such exemption is administratively feasible.
3.	Entrance to classified establishments and areas is by invitation only and the Canadian authorities naturally exercise discretion in issuing such invitations.



TRADE OR CULTURAL AGENCIES OF FOREIGN COUNTRIES IN CANADA

Mr. Adamson:: 1.	What known trade, cultural or any other agencies of the following countries are currently operating in Canada (a) U.S.S.R.; (b) Hungary; (c) Bulgaria; (d) Albania; (e) Roumania; (f) Czechoslovakia; (g) Poland; (h) Yugoslavia?
2.	What is the stated function of each agency, and to what country is it accredited?
3.	How many personnel does each employ?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	The U.S.S.R., Czechoslovakia, Poland and Yugoslavia maintain diplomatic missions in Canada. The normal activities of such missions include the development of trade and cultural relations with the country to which they are accredited. Hungary, Bulgaria, Albania and Roumania do not maintain official establishments of any kind in Canada. Poland maintains consulates in Montreal and Winnipeg. Czechoslovakia has a consulate general

in Montreal. Their activities include trade questions and normal consular affairs. In addition, the official Soviet government press agency, Tass, maintains a representative in Ottawa.
2.	The function of the diplomatic missions is that of facilitating the conduct of relations between their countries and Canada. The consulates are responsible for the carrying out of normal consular duties, which include trade questions and looking after the legitimate interests of the nationals of these countries in Canada.
3.	The diplomatic staff of the U.S.S.R. embassy numbers 8, and the non-diplomatic staff 15. The diplomatic staff of the Polish legation numbers 3 and the non-diplomatic staff 4. The consular staff of Poland numbers 2, and the clerical staff employed in the Polish consulates at Montreal and Winnipeg numbers 3. The diplomatic staff of the Czechoslovak legation numbers 2, and the non-diplomatic staff 3. The consular staff of Czechoslovakia is 1. The diplomatic staff of the Yugoslav legation numbers 5, and the non-diplomatic staff, 5.



FOREIGN CONSULAR OFFICIALS IN CANADA


Mr. Adamson:: 1.	How many consular officials are accredited to each of the following countries (a) U.S.S.R.; (b) Hungary; (c) Bulgaria; (d) Albania; (e) Roumania; (f) Czechoslovakia; (g) Poland; (h) Yugoslavia?
2.	What privileges and immunities do they enjoy?
3.	What restrictions, if any, are placed on their movements in Canada?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	In Canada; (a) U.S.S.R., none; (b) Hungary, none; (c) Bulgaria, none; (d) Albania, none; (e) Roumania, none; (f) Czechoslovakia, 1; (g) Poland, 2; (h) Yugoslavia, none.
2.	The privileges and immunities granted in Canada to consular officers of career in accordance with international practice, namely; inviolability of official premises, archives and communications; immunity in the performance of their official duties; exemption from customs duty; exemption from certain taxes such as income tax and succession duties; for consuls general limited excise exemptions.
3.	None.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT-FLOUR MILLING INDUSTRY

Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	Was a submission made to counsel following delivery to the Minister of Justice on the McGregor report on the milling industry for an opinion to ascertain whether the recommendations were such that proceedings either under the combines act or the Criminal Code should be taken?
Questions
2.	H so, to whom was the submission made and on what date? If not, why was such a course not followed?
3.	Was a legal opinion secured from the law officers of the crown or other counsel on the question as to whether the limitation of actions provided for in section 1141 of the Criminal Code applied to prosecutions under the Combines Act?


Mr. Garson:: 1.	Yes.
2.	On July 11, 1949, to J. J. Kelly, K.C., Winnipeg, subsequently appointed to the Manitoba Court of King's Bench. On September 20, 1949, to T. N. Phelan, K.C., Toronto.
3.	Yes.



SURVEY OF INVESTMENT INTENTIONS

Mr. Knowles:: 1.	By whom was the survey of investment intentions for 1950, referred to by the Prime Minister on February 20, 1950, made?
2.	When was this survey made, on what date were the results thereof reported, and to whom?
3.	Are the detailed results of this survey available to members of parliament? If so, how may they be obtained?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1.	Economic research and development branch, Department of Trade and Commerce, in conjunction with the dominion bureau of statistics.
2.	During the months November and December, 1949, and January and February, 1950. Preliminary results were reported to the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce, and were made available in the supplement to the February issue of the Canadian Statistical Review on February 20, 1950.
3.	See answer to No. 2. Final and detailed results will be included in "Private and Public Investment, Outlook 1950", to be tabled in parliament as soon as the document is available.



MOTOR VESSEL &quot;ESKIMO&quot;


Gordon Francis Higgins: Has a subsidy been promised to either the provincial government of Prince Edward Island or a provincial government company of Prince Edward Island for the operation of the motor vessel Eskimo, in trade between Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland?


Lionel Chevrier: No.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE


Mr. Argue:: 1.	Can a husband and wife receive separate payments under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act for land operated by each?
2.	If so, what are the regulations governing such payments, and what other factors, if any, are considered before payment is made?

Questions


Mr. McCubbin:: 1.	Yes.
2.	A wife is eligible for separate payment when evidence is supplied that she owns and actually operates herself a farm apart and separate from her husband; for example, a farm inherited from a relative, a former husband, or purchased with her own funds. Separate payment is not made to a wife on land rented by her when living with her husband who owns and/or rents a large acreage, and who does all the farm work.



BUTTER AND OLEOMARGARINE

Mr. Caiherwood:: 1.	What was the total consumption of butter in Canada during each of the years 1948 and 1949?
2.	What was the total consumption of margarine in Canada during the year 1949?
3.	What percentage of the oils and other ingredients contained in margarine is imported?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1.	370,153,000 pounds in 1948, and 315,338,000 pounds in 1949.
2.	71,992,000 pounds.
3.	Total utilization of oils and fats in margarine production during 1949 was 60,074,339 pounds of which 44,814,521 pounds, or about 75 per cent, consisted of cottonseed, peanut, coconut and palm kernel oils. These would be imported either as raw product, crude or refined oils. It is not known what part of the remainder, consisting of soybean oil, sunflower oil, marine oils, oleo oils and other fats, was imported materials.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


Mr. Aylesworth:: 1.	How many summer training camps were operated in 1949 by the Department of National Defence, and where were they located?
2.	To what persons or firms were the food and catering contracts awarded in the case of each camp, and what was the amount paid to each?
3.	How many summer training camps does the department propose to operate in 1950?
4.	Have any food and catering contracts been yet awarded for the 1950 camps, and if so, to whom, for what amounts, and for what camps?


Mr. Blanchetle:: 1 and 2. Location-Catering by
Navy, 5-Mahone Bay, N.S., arranged by Navy League of Canada; Choisy, P.Q., arranged by Navy League of Canada; Midland, Ont., arranged by Navy League of Canada; Kenora, Ont., arranged by Navy League of Canada; Gambier island, B.C., arranged by Navy League of Canada.
Location-Catering by-Amount paid
Army, 16-Vernon, B.C., Pederson Catering Co., $17,500.39; Esquimau, B.C., messing provided through service sources; Chilliwack, B.C., messing provided through service

sources; Wainwright, B.C., Sleen Catering Company, $14,156.02; Banff, Alta., messing provided through service sources; Dundurn, Sask., R. Smith and Company, $21,700.55; Shilo, Man., Hubbert's Food Services, $25,395.89; Clear Lake, Man., Hubbert's Food Services, $8,329.02; Petawawa, Ont., Hubbert's Food Services, $55,942.94; Ipperwash, Ont., Dominion Catering Co., $34,430.77; Picton, Ont., Hubbert's Food Services, $27,084.81; Barriefield, Ont., messing provided through service sources; Camp Borden, Ont., The Mc-Keefery Catering Co., $37,165.12; Valcartier, P.Q., Hubbert's Food Services, $47,194.88; Utopia, N.B., Dominion Catering Co., $13,071.99; Aldershot, N.S., Dominion Catering Co., $15,267.42.
Air Force, 6-Aylmer, Ont., messing provided through service sources; Gimli, Man., messing provided through service sources; Summerside, P.E.I., messing provided through service sources; Trenton, Ont., messing provided through service sources; Abbotsford, B.C., messing provided through service sources; Deseronto, Ont., messing provided through service sources.
3.	Navy, 5; army, 15; air force, 5; total, 25.
4.	No.



* PATRONAGE

Mr. Knowles:: Who administers, handles, or has charge of, the patronage, on behalf of the federal government, in or for each of the following areas: Montreal and district, Toronto and district, Winnipeg and district, Vancouver and district?


Mr. St. Laurent:: This question is similar to questions asked by the same hon. member on March 1 and March 16. The only answer must be one similar to the answers given to those questions, which will be found on pages 352 and 842 of Hansard.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I point out to the Prime Minister -


Some hon. Members:: Sit down.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That does not save time, does it, Mr. Speaker? May I point out to the Prime Minister that notice of this question was given, and can be found in Votes and Proceedings, prior to the time the last question was answered.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: That is correct.



FUR PELTS

Mr. Lennard:: 1.	Of the fur pelts imported into Canada from the United States during the year 1949, was Russia the country of origin of any of these pelts?
2.	If so, in what varieties, and what quantities of each variety?


George James McIlraith: Information not available.



INCOME TAX


Mr. Thalcher:: How many farmers were specifically requested to file income tax returns by the Department of National Revenue in (a) Saskatchewan; (b) Manitoba; (c) Alberta; (d) Quebec, during each of the years 1946 and 1947?


James Joseph McCann: The tax rolls in district income tax offices are not maintained in segments as to occupations or classes of business. Accordingly, no statistics are available to show the occupation of .persons on tax rolls who appear to be delinquents and are requested to file income tax returns.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Mr. Isnor:: 1.	How many Canadian National Railways trains were discontinued in January, 1950, and (a) what are their names or numbers; (b) region in which they operated; (c) points of beginning and ending of runs?
2.	What was the reduction in manpower (employees) of the Canadian National Railways, by regions, during the month of January, 1950?
3.	What was the cause of reduction?


Lionel Chevrier: Return tabled.



BUTTER IN STORAGE

Mr. Aylesworih:: 1.	How many pounds of butter are in storage in
Canada?
2.	How many pounds of this butter were purchased by the government, and at what price per pound?
3.	How many pounds of butter have been sold by the government since the 1st of January, 1950?
4.	To whom was the butter sold, and at what price per pound?
5.	Has any of the butter been sold because it became rancid?


Mr. Bradley:: Return tabled.



WINCHESTER, ONT., POST OFFICE BUILDING

Mr. Casselman:: 1.	Did the government purchase a building for a post office at Winchester, Ontario?
2.	If so, what was the purchase price of said buildings, and when was the transaction completed?
3.	Since that date, what repairs, if any, have been made on said building?
4.	Was the post office formerly operated from the building purchased?
5.	If so, for what period of time?
6.	Is the post office at present being operated in the building purchased?
7.	If not, where is it being operated?
8.	What repairs, if any, have been made on the building to which the post office has been moved?
9.	What expenses are being incurred in operating the post office in its present location?


Frederick Gordon Bradley: Return tabled.
Orders for Returns



BEEF CATTLE, MEAT AND MEAT PRODUCTS   EXPORTS TO U.S.

Mr. Argue:: 1.	What quantity and value of beef cattle was shipped to the United States, by months, since January 1, 1947?
2.	What was the value and quantity, by months, of other meat and meat products shipped to the United States since January 1, 1947?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.



NAVAL SERVICE


Mr. Isnor:: 1.	Have plans been prepared in connection with fireproof barracks for naval personnel, Dartmouth?
2.	H so, under whose supervision have plans been prepared?
3.	What are the names and addresses of firms making plans and writing specifications, and were any other firms consulted in reference to this project?
4.	What is the size of proposed barracks, and how many personnel will barracks accommodate?
5.	When will tenders be called?
6.	Will the calling of tenders and the awarding of same be handled by the Canadian Commercial Corporation?


Frederick Gordon Bradley: Return tabled.



COLD STORAGE ACT


Mr. Casselman:: 1.	How many contracts have been entered into in pursuance of the Cold Storage Act, in (a) the calendar year 1949; (b) the calendar year 1950, to date?
2.	What amounts were (a) paid; (b) contracted to be paid in each of the said years?
3.	In the case of each cold storage warehouse in respect of which a contract to pay a subsidy was entered into each of the said years: (a) what is its name; (b) what is its location; (c) what is the volume of storage space; (d) what is the amount of the subsidy contracted to be paid; (e) what amount of subsidy has been paid to date; (f) what amount of subsidy remains yet to be paid and on what dates; (g) what is the total amount of provincial subsidy paid or contracted to be paid?
4.	What applications under the act are now in the hands of the department awaiting decision, and what is the nature and location of the project and the amount applied for in each case?
5.	(a) What principles are followed in determining whether and to what extent subsidies should be granted under the act?
(b) What steps are taken to prevent duplication of warehouse facilities?


Robert McCubbin: Return tabled.


Mr. Hatfield:: 1.	What quantity of wool was on hand in Canada in the years 1945 to 1949 inclusive?
2.	What quantity of wool was exported from Canada, and to what countries, from 1945 to 1949 inclusive?
3.	What quantity of wool was imported into Canada from 1945 to 1949, and from what countries?'


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.
Orders for Returns



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-SASKATCHEWAN   TEMPORARY FIELD MEN

Mr. Sluder:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the temporary field men employed by P.F.A.A. in Saskatchewan, during the year 1949-50?
2.	What amount was paid to each of them for (a) salary or wages; (b) expenses, during the same period?
3.	How many of these employees are returned soldiers?


Robert McCubbin: Return tabled.



ITALIAN BONDS HELD BY CANADIANS

Mr. Hansell:: 1.	What responsibility does the government assume in respect to Italian bonds bought and1 held by Canadians previous to hostilities?
2.	What is the present situation in respect to Italian bonds held by Canadians?
3.	Does the custodian of enemy property seek to obtain settlement of these bonds which have already become due?


Frederick Gordon Bradley: Return tabled.



BRIDGES BETWEEN CANADA AND UNITED STATES

Mr. Benidickson:: 1.	Has the Canadian government made any financial contributions towards the construction costs of bridges between Canada and the United States of America?
2.	If so (a) where are these bridges located; (b) when were they constructed; (c) what amounts of money were contributed to each by the Canadian government?



RESERVE AND EXPORTS

Mr. Boisvert:: 1.	What was the gold reserve of the Bank of Canada as at December 31, 1949?
2.	What amount of gold was exported during 1949, and what countries received gold from Canada?
3.	What amount of gold was received by each country?
4.	What amount of gold has been sold to private persons during 1948 under section 25 of chapter 43 of the statutes of 1934?



BOARD OF TRANSPORT COMMISSIONERS-FREIGHT RATE EXPERTS

Mr. Hatfield:: 1.	What are the names and ages of each of the transport commissioners?
2.	When was each appointed?
3.	What was their business or profession before appointment to the board of transport commissioners?
4.	How many freight rate experts are employed by the board of transport commissioners?
5.	What are their names and what was their former employment?


Lionel Chevrier: Return tabled.



PROPRIETARY OR PATENT MEDICINE ACT AND FOOD AND DRUGS ACT

Mr. MacNaught:: What is the per capita cost in Canada of the protection given by the Proprietary or Patent Medicine Act and the Food and Drugs Act?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Return tabled.



CRUDE OIL

Mr. Murphy:: 1.	What quantity of crude oil was imported into Canada, and from which countries, during the years 1947, 1948 and 1949?
2.	At what places of entry into Canada was same imported?
3.	Is there any charge or tax imposed on the importation of such oil and if so, how much?
4.	Did Canada export any oil during the years 1947, 1948 and 1949, and if so, to what countries?
5.	Is there any duty, tax or other charge on crude oil exported to the U.S.A.? If so, how much, and when was same imposed?



TRACADIE, N.B., MILITARY CAMP

Mr. Brooks:: 1.	What was the cost of operation of the military camp at Tracadie, New Brunswick, during the past winter, for (a) army pay; (b) supplies?
2.	Were tenders called for providing supplies? If so (a) what was the amount of each tender; (b) who received the contract?
3.	If not, how are the supplies purchased, and from whom?



LABORATORY OF HYGIENE

Mr. Breithaupt:: What are the functions of the laboratory of hygiene?


Alphonse Fournier: Return tabled.



HOG GRADERS

Mr. Bryce:: 1.	How many hog graders are employed by the Department of Agriculture?
2.	What are the different positions in this service?
3.	At what places' are they employed?
4.	How often are they changed to different plants?
5.	How many have served in one plant (a) one year; (b) two years; (c) three years; (d) over three years?



PAYMENTS FOR OLD AGE PENSIONS, FAMILY ALLOWANCES, ETC.

Mr. Noseworthy:: 1.	What is the amount paid out by the federal government for old age pensions during each of the months January to June inclusive, 1949?
2.	What is the amount paid out by the federal government for old age pensions during each of the six months January to June inclusive, in 1945, 1946, 1947 and 1948?
3.	What is the amount paid out by the federal government for old age pensions in each of the six months July to December inclusive, in each year, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949?
4.	What is the amount paid out in pensions to the blind during each of the six months January to June inclusive, 1949?

5.	What is the amount paid out in pensions to the blind for each of the six months January to June inclusive, in each of the years 1945, 1946, 1947 and 1948?
6.	What is the amount paid out in pensions to the blind for each of the six months July to December in each of the years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949?
7.	What is the amount paid out for family allowances in each of the months January to June, inclusive, 1949?
8.	What is the amount paid out for family allowances during each of the months January to June inclusive, for the years 1945, 1946, 1947 and 1948?
9.	What is the amount paid out for family allowances in each of the months July to December in each of the years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949?
10.	What is the amount of any other direct payments made to Canadian citizens by the Department of National Health and Welfare during each of the months January to June inclusive, 1949, for reasons other than family allowances, old age pensions and pensions for the blind?



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE


Mr. Wright:: 1.	What sections were ruled ineligible for payment under P.F.A.A. in 1949 in township 36, range 7, west of the 3rd meridian?
2.	What was the average yield of these sections?
3.	How many sections, if any, had less than ten bushels per acre?
4.	Under what section of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act were these sections declared ineligible?
5.	Under what section of the act was the remainder of the township declared eligible?
6.	What townships or parts of townships adjoining township 36, range 7, west of the 3rd meridian, were eligible for P.F.A.A. payments?



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION


Mr. Argue:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of all persons employed under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act in Saskatchewan during the year 1949?
2.	What sum of money was paid to each person as (a) salary or wages; (b) sustenance; (c) mileage; (d) other allowances, and what was the nature of the work performed by each?
3.	How many persons were employed (a) part time; (b) full time in 1949?
4.	What was the total sum paid to all (a) part time employees; (b) full time employees?
5.	At what rate are (a) salaries or wages; (b) sustenance; (c) mileage; (d) other allowances, paid to common labour, foremen, all other employees under this act?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all directives and instructions issued to unemployment insurance offices since January 1, 1949, having to do with the handling of unemployment, including ways and means of dealing with applications for unemployment insurance benefits', advice as to the meaning of the words "suitable employment"; any special directives or instructions with reference to displaced persons, and any other related matters.


Mr.   Coie@Verdun-La Salle: Before the question is put, Mr. Speaker, I wish to remind
Motions for Papers
the house that this motion, in principle, would be objectionable as being against the rules of the house, since it refers to the production of departmental papers. But upon reading it, hon. members will realize that it refers to instructions and directives from the unemployment insurance commission to the field staff of the commission, which instructions would fall in the category of public papers. I therefore wish to waive any objection and to allow the motion to pass, now that this explanation has been made.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Thank you.



UNEMPLOYMENT


Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all reports made to the unemployment insurance commission and/or to the Minister or deputy minister of Labour, dated since September 1,	1949, having to do with the unemployment
situation.


Mr. Cote (Verdun-La Salle):: I should have liked to adopt the same attitude with regard to this motion, Mr. Speaker, but unfortunately it is impossible to waive any objection here. These are departmental papers of a strictly privileged character, and should be treated as such. On that ground I respectfully submit that this motion is out of order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: May I ask the parliamentary assistant a question? Would the motion be acceptable to the government if the words "and/or to the Minister.or deputy minister of Labour" were deleted? That would leave the motion asking simply for reports made to the unemployment insurance commission itself.


Paul-Émile Côté: If I may, Mr. Speaker, I should like to request the privilege of giving an analysis of what is involved in this request for an order of the house for the production of these papers.
Reports having to do with the unemployment situation coming to the Minister or deputy minister of Labour which are prepared and made from time to time fall into the following categories:
1.	Reports by officers or committees of the Department of Labour for the purpose of advising the minister on these matters: They are in the same category as other memoranda prepared within the department for the use of the minister, and are therefore privileged.
2.	Statistical data on local employment
office operations relating to unplaced applicants, benefit claims filed, referrals to employment, etc.:	They are forwarded at
regular intervals from the employment service offices in the field for use by the economics and research branch of the

Motions for Papers
Department of Labour and the bureau of statistics in the compilation of statistical returns for the information and advice of the Minister of Labour and other departments of the government. Reports based on these returns are issued from time to time by the minister, and are available for the period of time mentioned in the question and will be tabled if desired; but the local office returns upon which these reports are based are, it is considered, privileged in the same manner and for the same reasons as those referred to in category 1.
3.	Employer reports on payroll turnover and employment forecasts sent in by employers for use of the economics and research branch and the bureau of statistics: These are used in the preparation of employment statistics and forecasts and are sent in by employers for confidential use for this purpose. In view of the basis upon which they are forwarded for use, the individual reports must be regarded as privileged documents and not subject to production.
4.	Reports other than statistical reports made by officers of the employment service to the unemployment insurance commission which may come forward from time to time in the operations of the commission for the information of the commission and for use in reports by the commission to the Minister of Labour: While the unemployment insurance commission is a corporate entity, it will be noted that section 88 (1) of the Unemployment Insurance Act provides as follows:
The commission shall organize and maintain an employment service for Canada and in respect of that service shall be responsible to the minister.
That is, to the Minister of Labour. Consequently it is clear that the commission in carrying on its employment service operations is doing so as a department of government directly responsible to the Minister of Labour. The reports coming in from employment offices on employment conditions to the commission are designed for, and are utilized in, the preparation of information for the use of the Minister of Labour, and are in the same category as other memoranda prepared in the Department of Labour for the minister's use and information.
For all these reasons, Mr. Speaker, I submit that the motion is out of order.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Without prejudice to my right to put the motion on the order paper again in different form, I am prepared to withdraw it at this time.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



CROWN PROPERTIES


Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all correspondence, including briefs, and replies thereto, in the possession of the Minister of Finance, dated since January 1, 1949, with reference to the matter of payments to municipalities in lieu of taxes on federal crown properties.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all orders in council, or a consolidation thereof, dealing with the inclusion of fair wage provisions and any other requirements respecting labour conditions in contracts let by the federal government or any department or branch thereof.


Paul-Émile Côté: Return tabled.



GANDER, NFLD., AIRPORT

William Joseph Browne: For a copy of all correspondence, documents and other papers relating to the agreement recently made between the government of Canada and the government of the United States, or any aviation companies of the United States, for the use of Gander airport.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, there are certain difficulties in the way of the production of correspondence between two governments arising out of negotiations for a treaty or agreement. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this motion be allowed to stand so that I can discuss it with the hon. member for St. John's West.
Motion stands.



ELBOURNE, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of all correspondence, directives and instructions, from October 1, 1948, to date, in connection with the removal or change of postmaster at Elbourne, Saskatchewan.



VETERANS-SETTLEMENT WITH ALBERTA IN SPECIAL AREAS

Mr. Quelch:: For a copy of the agreement signed between the dominion and the province of Alberta, dealing specifically with the settlement of veterans in the special areas.


Mr. Gregg:: I am willing that this motion be passed, subject to two reservations: first, as soon as we are sure that all steps have been taken by both parties for the approval of the agreement, and, second, as soon as we are sure that the province of Albeita has no objection to the publication.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Hon. Douglas Abboll (Minister of Finance):: Yesterday evening when we were considering the supplementary estimates in committee of supply I explained that there was some urgency in having passed at a fairly early day the supply bill based on these estimates. X also explained that it was not possible for me to be in the house tomorrow. The committee indicated at that time that it would probably be prepared to give unanimous consent to proceeding with that business today, before private members' notices of motions were taken up. I would appreciate it if the house would give that consent.


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Drew:: I certainly support the suggestion that has been made that these estimates be dealt with, but since it is a matter of procedure by consent I suggest that permission be granted for the asking of questions from the floor of the house as we do when the orders of the day are called.


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is quite all right.


Mr. Speaker:: Would it be agreeable to the house if I called orders of the day, and afterwards put the motion to go into committee of supply?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Orders of the day.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Alexander Drew: I should like to take this opportunity to ask the Prime Minister to take such steps as may be necessary to the end that the committees which have been set up be called together for organization purposes well in advance of the house rising for the Easter recess, so that the necessary preliminary steps can be taken to plan the work of the committees before hon. members leave for home. While I recognize it is not directly the responsibility of the Prime Minister, I feel sure that a suggestion from him in that regard will be followed by those who are directly responsible.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I shall be very glad to have the co-operation of the leader of the official opposition and also that of the leaders of
Inquiries of the Ministry the other groups. All the standing committees have been organized. It is not a matter of organizing the special committees, but of getting the house to establish them. We shall try to bring that about just as soon as an opportunity can be found to do so. As soon as they are set up I will undertake to see that measures are taken to have them organized at the earliest possible moment.


George Alexander Drew: I wish to explain, Mr. Speaker, that when I used the term "organized" I meant actually organized for the carrying on of their work. I know that so far as the formal steps are concerned, these have been taken. It is now a matter of proceeding to the actual organization of the work. I am particularly concerned with the setting up of the public accounts committee at the earliest possible moment.



ELECTRIC POWER


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. W. George (Westmorland):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Resources and Development. Has the minister given any consideration to implementing the study of the St. Mary's tidal project at the head of the bay of Fundy, as suggested by me on March 13 in the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne?


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Resources and Development):: I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of his question. I read his speech with keen interest, and I am aware of the Acres and Melanson reports. I have requested the engineers of the department to conduct an investigation with a view to conducting an on-site survey, if this appears desirable.


George Alexander Cruickshank: And the pipe line too?



ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES INQUIRY AS TO REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinfon):: I should like to direct to the Prime Minister the question that I put in the committee of supply last evening when the Prime Minister was not present. It had to do with item 594 of the further supplementary estimates. I asked if the government had any intimation as to when the royal commission on the arts, letters and sciences expects to complete its sittings and present its report.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I have no precise information. My

Supply-Trade and Commerce understanding is that the sittings are to be completed at a relatively early day. I was told that substantial progress has been made in draft form on a large part of the report, and that it is hoped that the report will be filed with the government in time to have it printed before there is another session of parliament.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I take it that it is not likely that a report will be available before the close of the present session?


Mr.   Si. Laureni@: No; it is not likely that the commissioners will have completed their consideration of the draft before this session ends-at least it is my hope that this session will end before the autumn, and my intimation was that the commission hoped to have a report ready for us early in the autumn so that it could be printed before the opening of another session of parliament.



NEWFOUNDLAND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I wish to take the opportunity to say a few words about a booklet that has been placed in the hands of hon. members within the past few days, giving a description of the new province of Newfoundland. I express my warmest congratulations on the workmanship and the content of this booklet, which has been produced both for general circulation to the public and for the information of hon. members. May I at the same time say that this is the type of publication that helps greatly to create a wider understanding of our own country. May I offer the suggestion that it would be helpful if a similar booklet were issued, for general circulation in the same way, describing the activities of each of the other provinces as well.


Mr. Lesage:: What about provincial autonomy?


An hon. Member:: Smart aleck!


Mr. Rowe:: You could learn something from that.


William Joseph Browne: Without wishing to take anything away from the compliments which have been offered to those responsible for the preparation of this pleasant and interesting booklet, I should like to point out that it contains some serious errors. When the next edition comes out I hope that they will be corrected. I have already drawn the attention of officials

of the Department of External Affairs to one in particular, which has to do with the decision in regard to the Labrador boundary between Quebec and Newfoundland at the time that Newfoundland was a dominion. It states that the result of the decision was that Newfoundland gained Labrador, an area of 110 square miles.	It should be
110,000 square miles.

Hon. Douglas Abbot! (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Dion in the chair.


[Stage Direction]
Atomic energy control board-
614. Chalk river project-capital and operating expenses-further amount required, $200,000.
Mr. Coldwell:: Last evening the Minister of Trade and Commerce was asked if the committee on atomic energy could be reconstituted this year, and his answer was a categorical no. I was interested in hearing at the last meeting of that committee last session the suggestion that this year we might have a committee on the work of the national research council, a body which has done an excellent job, and whose activities are not well known either to the house or to the country. I believe it would be worth while, for the education of both this house and the public, to set up a committee this year on the national research council. I hope that the minister will consider this suggestion.


Mr. Howe:: I think my hon. friend is not correct in saying that I gave a categorical no last night. I said I would give consideration to the proposal. I was then asked if I would promise a committee on atomic energy, and I said no. There are objections to having a committee on atomic energy this year. I need not go into them.
Personally I should be glad to see a committee review the work of the national research council. I think hon. members would find its work exceedingly interesting. Since it is only three or four months since a committee examined the atomic energy project, I suggest that a committee this year could consistently examine the work of the national research council. It would give the committee a more comprehensive view of Canada's activities in the field of research. I shall be glad to consult my colleagues and, if they have no objection, to arrange for the formation of a committee to examine into the national research council.


Mr. Low:: I should like to say a word on this. I was a member of the committee which

was established last year, and I believe it did *excellent work. Naturally, a corollary to the work of the atomic energy committee would be a committee to examine into the national research council. I appreciate very much the minister's willingness to make that recommendation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The Chairman:: Item 615.


Mr. Green:: Before we go on to item 615, I wonder if I might ask a question in connection with item 609. The minister was not in the chamber when the item was before the committee last night. I understand this is the final vote for the Fraser valley diking board. It will not appear in the estimates again.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: My information is that the board have done fine work. I believe they have completed it at less than the estimated cost, and in a shorter time than expected.
I would ask the minister, however, what has happened to the dominion-provincial Fraser river basin board. That is a board which was set up to investigate the whole question of flood control in the Fraser river basin, and also the matter of power development. Can the minister tell us what progress has been made with the work of that particular board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Fraser river diking board reports to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but the board mentioned by the hon. member reports to the Minister of Public Works. I am afraid I cannot give any information on the work of that board.


Alphonse Fournier: I recall having received a preliminary report from this board, but I did not expect to be questioned with respect to it. However, if the hon. member wishes, I shall try to have a copy of the report sent to him as soon as possible.


Howard Charles Green: Would there be any objection to tabling it?


Alphonse Fournier: I would like to study the report myself before I can give that assurance.


Mr. Fulton:: I think the minister tabled the first report at my request.


Alphonse Fournier: I believe last year a report was tabled, yes. I shall consult my colleagues, and if there is no objection I can have it tabled, or have a copy sent to the hon. member.
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[Stage Direction]
615. Departmental administration, further amount required, $16,700.
Gordon Francis Higgins: There are one or two matters I should like to bring to the attention of the Minister of Transport, who has been most co-operative on all occasions I have discussed matters with him. I am sure there will be no difficulty in the present instance.
Again I make reference to the newest province, and refer particularly to conditions at the port of Louisburg. That is the winter port of the Newfoundland railway, when ice conditions at North Sydney force the ferry to go to Louisburg. The Minister of Trade and Commerce will recall what was agreed at the time the terms of union were drafted. His words are quoted in the Daily News of September 29, 1949. The article reads as follows:
Premier Smallwood stated that he remembered clearly when this matter had been brought up during the drafting of the terms of union that Mr. Howe had stated that adequate facilities for the handling of traffic at these alternate ports would definitely be made available if they were not there already.
The reference to alternate ports is a reference to Sydney and Louisburg. Perhaps the Minister of Trade and Commerce will remember that statement. I was not present with the last delegation, but it was understood that in the event of ice conditions at North Sydney which would prevent the use of that port proper facilities would be provided at the port of Louisburg. The hon. member for Grand Falls-White Bay and, I believe, all other members from Newfoundland, with the exception of the hon. member for St. John's West, came through Louisburg on their way to Ottawa to attend this session. From the port one has to use a railway which is not part of the Canadian National Railways. I believe it is known as the Sydney-Louisburg Railway.
The Sydney-Louisburg Railway is very fine for people who have money and who do not have to travel over it. The hon. member and I, who were in a hurry, could hire a taxi. But the people who do have to use the railway have some very trying conditions with which to contend.	.
Since arriving in Ottawa I have received communications from a number of people who have had to use the railway at night, and I am told that travelling conditions are not very pleasant. My information is that the train is not heated, except by a stove in the middle of the coach. There is no lighting except for an oil lamp. No provision is made for passengers coming off the boat, except a narrow gangplank. People have arrived at

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a quarter to nine in the morning and have waited until after two in the afternoon before any accommodation was offered them.
This is a most unfortunate situation. I am bringing the matter to the attention of the Minister of Transport because I have always found him co-operative, helpful and courteous. These people say that this is proof that, so far as the Canadian National Railways are concerned, Newfoundlanders just do not count.
I do not believe that. I asked the agent at Louisburg on the day we arrived why it was one of the regular Canadian National coaches could not be put on at that point, and I was told that a proper car could not be used because the cars were too long for the curves.
I do not know what the facts are, but that is what I was told. In other words, they could not just put another car on that road. I am sure the minister will understand that I am speaking in good faith, and I hope he will take the matter into consideration.
As I said before, the Minister of Trade and Commerce did undertake, as Premier Smallwood stated-and he always says what is completely true-that proper accommodation would be provided. This is another little incident which is of interest in Newfoundland, and which is set out in a newspaper published in that province. This newspaper The Sunday Herald has a circulation of 19,749. Without delaying the house longer I shall read this article, because I believe it will appeal to the minister. The headline says: "Passengers spend hours in darkness, with madman aboard train". Then the subheading is in these words: "Harrowing trip." The article goes on to say:
Passengers on a recent C.N.R. St. John's bound express were treated to a rare experience when those in the first class coaches were forced to sit for hours in the darkness, listening to the ravings of an insane person being brought to St. John's in a strait-jacket. In addition, those going to the diner had to eat their meals by flashlight thoughtfully provided by the steward.
This article is under dateline of March 18. It continues:
The incident occurred about a fortnight ago on an eastbound train. At Clarenville, shortly before dark, a policeman boarded the train escorting a mental patient in a strait-jacket.
This is in the district represented by the Secretary of State (Mr. Bradley).
The two sat in a first-class car, amongst the other passengers, two of whom were expectant mothers. Soon after the train got under way it was discovered that at least a portion of the lighting system had broken down and there was no light in the first-class car.
For several hours the passengers were forced to sit in complete darkness until a makeshift battery system was set up which provided a small amount of light on one side of the car only. In the meantime the mental patient had not been exactly quiet, and many passengers, especially the expectant mothers, were greatly frightened that he might

get loose in the darkness. Other passengers complained to the conductor, but of course there was little he could do about the matter.
In the diner, a part of the special Bonavista branch car, the steward had to place a flashlight in a drinking glass to enable passengers to see what they were eating, but even then, as one passenger put it, "You couldn't tell the pork chops from the sausages."	.
When the train arrived at St. John's, passengers had to use matches to find their luggage, and all are hoping that they will never again have such an experience.
I am quite certain the Minister of Transport will take care of these matters.


Mr. Isnor:: I should like to direct the attention of the minister to the answer given today to a question standing in my name. It has to do with purchases of coal by Canadian National Railways. The first two parts of the question were as follows:
1.	What quantity of coal (a) Canadian; (b) United States, was purchased by the Canadian National Railways in the years 1947, 1948, 1949?
2.	Of orders placed, what quantities of (a) Canadian; (b) United States coal were delivered in each of these years?
Those parts were answered in full, but then followed what I considered the important part of the question which read:
3.	What are the names of coal suppliers (a) Canadian; (b) American?
The answer given by the minister was as follows:
For competitive reasons it is not in the general interest to provide the names of individual suppliers.
I feel that a more complete answer should be given, because it is in the interests of the small operators, particularly those in Nova Scotia, that this information should be available. I did not ask for the prices paid; I simply asked for the names of those supplying the coal. I think the minister should look into this further, and, if possible, furnish the names of the Canadian suppliers at least. I am not so much concerned with the names of the United States suppliers.


Lionel Chevrier: The answer given was the answer the officials of the Canadian National Railways indicated to me should be given. The attitude taken by the officials is as stated in the answer, that for competitive reasons they should not toe asked to give this information. The committee on railways and shipping is master of its own destiny, and if the committee decides that that information should be given, the officials will have to give it. But I do not think the committee will insist upon its being given if the officials can give a good explanation of the competitive reasons. It may be that because of competition with other railroads it is not in the interests of the government-owned railroad to give this information. My

hon. friend is perhaps a member of the committee, and he may wish to raise this question in the committee.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: I am not a member of the committee, and that is why I refer to this matter here. In the past I have placed questions indirectly before the committee without getting a satisfactory answer. I know the minister well enough to know that he would not accept an answer like that if he were making inquiry about a subject in which he was interested. I sincerely trust that he will point out to the officials of the C.N.R. what I have said today. I feel that they should be asked to give full information as to the names of the suppliers of coal, particularly those in Nova Scotia.


Mr. Hatfield:: What is being done about the shortage of refrigerator cars in the maritime provinces? I understand that the railroads sent a number of these cars to British Columbia because of the cold weather, and have not received a sufficient number back to meet the needs of the maritimes for the loading of potatoes. There is a great shortage of refrigerator cars in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.


Lionel Chevrier: I think perhaps we had better settle this question right away. My information is that there is not the shortage of cars to which my hon. friend refers. I stated the position in the house the other day, and I am prepared to state it again. I wish hon. members would agree on what the position is, because it is impossible to get agreement. Some say to me that the position is excellent, and then the hon. member for Queens and now my hon. friend states that it is not. I have a letter here from someone who should-


Heber Harold Hatfield: The minister mentioned
Prince Edward Island the other day, not New Brunswick.


Lionel Chevrier: I am dealing now with Prince Edward Island, and I am also dealing-


Heber Harold Hatfield: I am dealing with New Brunswick.


Lionel Chevrier: -with the mainland. I have here a letter dated March 10, 1950, from the director of transportation of the Department of Industry and Natural Resources, Prince Edward Island, addressed to the deputy minister of transport. It reads:
The real facts are that during the past several months we have had the best refrigerator car situation here for some years and I, for one, have no hesitation in going on record as stating that the Canadian National Railways have done everything in their power to aid us in this refrigerator car situation. 1 feel very strongly that they should be given full credit for this, and to my personal knowledge the Canadian National Railways officials
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at Charlottetown, at Moncton, and at Montreal, have given every attention to this matter and I feel very confident they will use all means within their power to aid our shippers in the months of March and April.
He goes on to refer to the additional service rendered by the Abegweit.
My hon. friend has referred to New Brunswick. The information I have from the Canadian National Railways is that there is no shortage, but in view of what my hon. friend has said, I shall make further inquiry. The director of transportation in Prince Edward Island should know what he is talking about, and from statements which I have made from time to time in the house-


Mr. McLure:: To whom is that letter directed?


Lionel Chevrier: To the deputy minister of transport.


Heber Harold Hatfield: To my knowledge there is a great shortage in New Brunswick on the transcontinental and on the Saint John valley line. We have been trying to secure cars for weeks, and I am receiving telegrams every day.


Mr. Argue:: On April 7, 1948, by order in council P.C. 1487, the board of transport commissioners was directed to conduct a general inquiry into the freight rate structure. As was recognized in that order in council, prevailing freight rates are discriminatory against certain parts of Canada; and as the minister well knows, any subsequent increase means an increase in that discrimination. My question is, how soon does the minister expect that a report will be made by the board on the general freight rate inquiry, and how much work has been done on that inquiry to date?


Lionel Chevrier: The answer to the first part of the question is, unfortunately, that it will not be very soon. Perhaps I should amplify that by saying that after the government instructed the board of transport commissioners to make an equalization of the freight rate structure in Canada, a royal commission was established to dispose of a number of matters concerning transportation. Meanwhile the board proceeded, under P.C. 1487, to ask the various provinces to make submissions, but the provinces took the position that the submissions they had to make at the time to the royal commission were of such importance that they would have to defer, for some time at least, their submissions on the general question of equalization.
In the meantime the board have not lost their time. They have instituted a waybill study. That is a study which will take some considerable time; also the recommendations

Supply-Transport
or representations the provinces may care to make to the board will have to await the conclusion of the hearings of the royal commission on transportation. So in short the answer to my hon. friend's question is that the investigation under P.C. 1487 is proceeding; that the board is not losing its time, since it is conducting a waybill study which will have to go into literally hundreds of thousands of various freight rate tariffs. Just as soon as it is possible to hand down a decision, which I am afraid will not be before some months, the board will proceed to dispose of that matter.


Hazen Robert Argue: I might remind the minister that the board already has had two years in which to make the general inquiry. I hope it will not be another two years before anything is done about these discriminatory freight rates. I just wonder if the board is short of personnel, if this job is not too big for them, when they also have to consider applications from the railways from time to time. Could not this inquiry be expedited if the personnel of the board were increased, or if they were given additional technical assistance?


Lionel Chevrier: I should think it would be the other way around. I do not want to cast any reflections upon anyone, but it is easy to appreciate why the provinces could not submit representations to two bodies. They had to choose between making representations to the board of transport commissioners on the matter of equalization and making representations to the royal commission; and I presume they came to the conclusion, for various reasons, that priority should be given to the royal commission. The provinces have expert counsel, and while I do not know this for a fact it is my feeling that until their representations to the royal commission are terminated they will not want to make representations to the board of transport commissioners under P.C. 1487.
When my hon. friend says he hopes it will not take another two years, it is simply a matter of the time not being available to make representations to two bodies. As I understand it, there is no question of whether it will take two or three years. Neither do I think it is a question of personnel, because I am firmly of the opinion .that if the provinces desired to make representations to the board right now under P.C. 1487 there is ample personnel, on both the technical side and the rate expert side, to deal with the situation.


Hazen Robert Argue: Could they not do it concurrently with the application for increases that is now before the board?


Lionel Chevrier: Oh, no; this is a different thing altogether. That was decided by the board away back in 1946, I believe, when the first application for the 30 per cent increase came before them. It was decided that the two things were separate and distinct. One was a revenue case for a 30 per cent increase in rates; the other was an inquiry to equalize and dispose of unjust and unfair discrimination, and it was felt that both could not be heard concurrently.


Solon Earl Low: I should like to ask the minister why he and his colleagues did not make use of the powers given in section 52 of the Railway Act to stay the application of any new awards by the board of transport commissioners, in the light of the very serious situation which has developed, particularly among farmers and others in western Canada. I know that on two or three occasions the minister said it never had been done, as if that were a reason. That is not a reason. The fact of the matter is that powers were placed in section 52 of the Railway Act giving the government authority to deal with just such a situation as has arisen. Why in the world the government would not feel that delay of a few weeks or even two or three months would be in the best interests of Canada, particularly since we are expecting reports not only from the royal commission but on the hearings before the board, is something I cannot quite understand. I should like a little better reason than has been given so far.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not agree with my hon. friend that the powers in section 52 to which he refers are as he says they are. I placed on record a complete definition of those powers in 1946. I do not remember everything I said at that time, but my recollection is that as far back as 1903 parliament decided that the way to dispose of freight rate matters was by a board of transport commissioners, and they were a technical body set up and established to deal with those problems. They took it away from the government. Before 1903 a committee of the privy council handled these matters, but parliament decided they should not be dealt with in that way but should be handled by a technical body, which was set up.
I could go on at some length and give additional reasons, but that was the main reason, because the powers of the governor in council are judicial in nature. The government did not interfere because it did not think it was proper to do so, since it is not the practice to interfere with the ordinary processes of courts of record. My hon. friend says the fact that it has never been done is not a reason. Well, other governments have been

faced with the same problem since parliament set up the board, and as a general rule they have taken the position that it is up to the board to decide these questions, not up to the governor in council.


Mr. Ross (Souris):: I should like to support the remarks of the hon. member for Peace River, but in view of the statement just made by the minister I would like him to tell us who are the members of the transport board, that is the names of the various members, and what were their qualifications and experience for appointment to the board. What experience did they have in dealing with transportation problems, that is in railroading or otherwise, before their appointment?


Lionel Chevrier: I gave that information too, at some length, in the general freight rates debate that took place in this house in 1946 or 1947.


James Arthur Ross: Are they the same members today?


Lionel Chevrier: I believe it was the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton who asked that question today; and the question was answered. If my hon. friend looks at that return, he will find it contains the names and occupations of those commissioners. I might be mistaken, and perhaps it was another hon. member who asked the question, but I think you will find the return was tabled today.


James Arthur Ross: Does that return contain their past experience, as well as any previous experience they may have had in transportation matters before their appointment?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


James Arthur Ross: Then, if it is a matter of a return, why not put it on Hansard?


Lionel Chevrier: It was put on Hansard today.


James Arthur Ross: If it is a return, it does not appear on Hansard, but appears in Votes and Proceedings.


Lionel Chevrier: I have no objection. I am not trying to hide anything, and I hope my hon. friend is not attempting to indicate that I am. There is no secrecy about any of this information. I could give the names of the transport commissioners to my hon. friend now, but for the sake of saving time, I think he can find them in the return.


Stanley Howard Knowles: It was an order for return.


Lionel Chevrier: What member was it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The member for Victoria-Carleton, and it was question No. 48.


Howard Charles Green: If the minister will recall, there was quite a lot of discussion about this question in 1948 and the year after. The board of
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transport commissioners handed down its first judgment and then on April 7, 1948 the minister, who had been under considerable pressure on this question, made a statement of government policy, and I have that statement here. In it, he announced that there was to be this general investigation of freight rates conducted by the board of transport commissioners. The words used by the minister on that date were very significant. He said:
The government has taken into consideration the fact that no general investigation of freight rates has been made in Canada since that conducted in 1925 by the board of railway commissioners. In the circumstances, the government has decided it would be in the public interest to have the board of transport commissioners make a thorough investigation of the rate structure of railways and1 railway companies which are under the jurisdiction of parliament, with a view-
This is the crux of the whole plan.
-with a view to the establishment of a fair and reasonable rate structure which will, under substantially similar circumstances and conditions, be equal in its application to all persons and localities, so as to permit the freest possible exchange of commodities between the various provinces and territories of Canada and the extension of Canadian trade, both foreign and domestic, having due regard to the needs of agriculture and other basic industries. This investigation will be subject, of course, to the statutory provisions affecting freight rates known as the Maritime Freight Rates Act and the Crowsnest pass agreement.
Then, the minister tabled order in council P.C. 1487, to which he referred today, and which authorized the board of transport commissioners to make this general investigation of freight rates. The minister said that the government would not agree to a royal commission on transportation. Later in that year, as a matter of fact, after the Liberal convention, that policy was changed and a royal commission on transportation was set up.
In the session which followed, some of us pointed out to the minister that there was bound to be confusion between the functions of the board of transport commissioners conducting a general investigation into the whole freight structure, and the business of the royal commission on transportation. He ridiculed our remarks, but today he said the same thing himself in answer to the member for Assiniboia, that as the provinces could not deal with two investigations at the same time, they decided to make their representations before the royal commission. That is all water over the dam, of course, but I do think the minister should make it clear to the committee whether or not the board of transport commissioners is still to conduct a general investigation into the whole freight rate structure on the basis outlined in his remarks of April 7, 1948. The facts would seem to indicate that no such investigation is under way yet. Practically two years have elapsed,

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and it looks to me as though there is not the slightest possibility of the board of transport commissioners carrying out an investigation on that particular scale.
Today the minister says they are busy investigating the forms of waybills. He says that is going to take them months and months. That is a far cry from a general investigation of our freight rate structure in Canada. I do ask the minister to tell us frankly today whether it is expected the board of transport commissioners will carry out such a broad inquiry. If they are going to do it, all right, but they should be busy at it now. It appears to me as though the government is waiting for the report of the royal commission on transportation, and that this whole plan of having the board of transport commissioners make a general inquiry has been sidetracked, if not completely abandoned. If that is the case, the house should know. Let there be no misunderstanding or confusion about the situation today.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is the slightest misunderstanding, neither is there any confusion. I wish my hon. friend would decide what it is he has in his mind. By that I mean, when it was suggested that the board of transport commissioners undertake a freight rate investigation in Canada under P.C. 1487, my hon. friend said, "No, we should not do that."


Howard Charles Green: No.


Lionel Chevrier: Just a moment, let me finish.


Howard Charles Green: On a question of privilege, the minister must not put words into my mouth. This happened two years ago, but I think if he will look at Hansard he will find I made no such statement at that time. I do not think the minister should base his argument on something I did not say.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not going to argue with my hon. friend, Mr. Chairman, as to his exact words. Perhaps he did not say no, and I accept his statement. I know his whole attitude was that of one opposed to the order in council 1487, and Hansard will bear me out. What he did want and what his colleagues wanted was a royal commission on transportation. The hon. member is quite right when he says I opposed it, because at that time I did not feel it was the thing-


Howard Charles Green: The minister is making a statement-


Lionel Chevrier: I did not interrupt my hon. friend.


Howard Charles Green: I did not make a misstatement. At the time this debate took place, I do not believe I was in Ottawa at all. I spoke on freight rates either in the fall of 1948-I believe I did speak later in that session of 1948. When I dealt with this royal commission and the general investigation by the board of transport commissioners, it was a year later, in 1949. At that time, the minister was asked how he was going to sort out these two inquiries. There were others who, in 1948, took the attitude the minister is now mentioning, but I did not take it.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not want to get into an argument with my hon. friend. On the other hand, I do not like him to make the statement that I have been ridiculing the attitude taken by him and by his colleagues. It is not my habit to do that. The point I am making is this. When we brought forward order in council 1487 for a general investigation of freight rates, that was objected to generally because it was said we had not gone far enough. Then, when the government decided to establish a royal commission and, at the request of the provinces put into the terms of reference almost everything the provinces requested, the answer then was, "That is not sufficient; why do you not carry on your investigation under P.C. 1487?" I have been trying to explain to the hon. member who first asked this question and I am trying to explain to the house now, that it is not possible, as I understand it, for the provinces to be in two places at the same time. Is this clear?
It is the intention of the board of transport commissioners and of the government to see to it that the general investigation of the freight rates structure in Canada be continued under P.C. 1487. My hon. friend asked for a clear and frank statement. I made the statement last year-I think I made it in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue)-and I make it now, that the only reason why the board cannot proceed more quickly and with more dispatch is that it must, of necessity, hear the representations of the provinces; and until it hears the representations of the provinces, how is it going to consider the equalizing of the freight rates structure?
After the royal commission on transportation has made its report, it may be that the board of transport commissioners may have enough information to warrant a decision. I do not know. But my understanding is that they will want to hear representations and submissions from the provinces. They cannot do so at the moment because the provinces

are engaged before the royal commission. Meanwhile they are conducting an investigation or a study into the waybill structure. That is a considerable study. It is a matter that is going to take some time because it has never been done in Canada. My information is that it has never been done in the United Kingdom or in the United States, and it is a big job. The board of transport commissioners inform me that until they have that study completed it is impossible to deal with equalization of the freight rates structure across Canada. I do not think I can go any further than to tell my hon. friend that it is the intention to proceed with the investigation. There has not been one since 1926; and the board and the government feel that there should be one now.


Howard Charles Green: Then the situation is that, after the royal commission on transportation has reported, the board of transport commissioners will proceed with the general inquiry into the whole freight rates structure. Am I to understand from the minister that that is the plan?


Lionel Chevrier: It is; and more than that, they are proceeding now.


Howard Charles Green: Oh, well-


Lionel Chevrier: They are proceeding now with the waybill study which is a matter that is taking some time.


Howard Charles Green: Have the provinces taken the position that they will make representations to the board of transport commissioners on this general inquiry?


Lionel Chevrier: I cannot answer that; but I would think they would want to make representations.


Howard Charles Green: Is the minister satisfied that the board of transport commissioners is strong enough to conduct a thorough and worth-while inquiry? And has the board a strong enough staff to enable it to carry out a proper inquiry? As we all know, in 1948 the commissioners made a decision which was reversed by the cabinet, and last year they made a decision which was reversed by the Supreme Court of Canada. They are now in difficulty again over their recent decision. I am asking the minister whether he believes that the board of transport commissioners as set up at the present time and the staff are strong enough adequately to deal with this freight rate question by way of a general investigation.


Lionel Chevrier: I am firmly of that view. I think it is borne out by the fact that the board of transport commissioners in 1926 conducted a fairly good examination into the freight rates structure of Canada at that time. I think it was called an equalization of freight rates
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then. From the point of view of staff, freight rate experts, statistical experts and the like, I would say that the board is in a stronger position today than it was then. It is not for me to compare the personnel of the board today with the personnel of the board in those earlier days. I would not attempt to do so. But since my hon. friend asked me for my opinion, I say that I am of the view that they can conduct a fair and thorough investigation at this time.


Major James William Coldwell: In view of all that has been said with regard to freight rates and transportation generally, both here and across the country, it seems to me that the time has come when the government and the House of Commons should consider what can be done for the whole transportation system of this country. What I mean is this. We are discussing this matter piecemeal. We are not facing the difficulties. I do not want to say anything that I should not say at the moment because of the inquiries that are now going on. But having regard to the proposals made by the president of the Canadian National Railways a few days ago, with the uneasiness all across the country and particularly on the prairies and British Columbia with regard to the increases in the freight rates, with the decline in railway traffic and the competition that has come to the railways by way of trucks picking up the most profitable business, and the dependence that we have in some parts of the country for the removing of our heavy commodities like wheat, coal and so on, it seems to me that the time has come when the House of Commons and the government of the country should face up to this whole transportation problem and try to straighten out the discriminations that exist, and which are oppressive, and try to have a real transportation policy for this country that would give us a chance of having freight rates and so on that would be within the reach of the people. I think the time has come when we must consider transportation not as a matter of railway rates but as a matter of integration of all our various transportation facilities, with a view to finding a solution for this grave problem; for grave it is when you see the manner in which deficits have piled up over the years when times have not been as prosperous as they were during the war years.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not think there is much fault I could find with what the leader of the C.C.F. party has said. I would point out to him, however, that the difficulty lies in the fact that if you have a general over-all policy on general transportation matters you then enter the provincial field. You must of necessity do that.


Major James William Coldwell: Yes, of course.

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Lionel Chevrier: For instance, the question of highway transport is one which is under the jurisdiction of the provinces; and the question of international and interprovincial highways is one for agreement between the provinces. Then again it is a question which has been referred to two royal commissions already, namely the Duff commission and the Rowell-Sirois commission. Both of them pointed to the difficulty and indicated some of the solutions; but because it has been impossible to reach agreement with the provinces, the problem still remains. I do not know whether the provinces would be willing to reach agreement on that matter.
To deal with the matter more particularly, I say that the royal commission on transportation as now established has as its reference the general transportation problem in Canada. It may be that we can hope for some recommendation from them on that point.


Major James William Coldwell: In view of the situation that has developed, perhaps further discussions with the provinces might bring about some better understanding.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to see that.


Major James William Coldwell: I have no doubt the government has it in mind. When the commission reports, no doubt some discussions will be held with the provinces with regard to the recommendations. I hope that something will come out of it. That is what I mean,


Mr.   Johnsion@: I did not intend to discuss this question under this item; but as the question has arisen now, probably I shall be quite in order in what I am about to say. I agree that there should be some general over-all policy with regard to transportation in this country. It has been pointed out that the great discrimination in rates has affected different parts of the country. We out in the west particularly bear the brunt of that unfair competition; and it is my judgment that the time has come when there should be a thorough going-over of the transportation system of this country, particularly as it applies to the west.
My mind goes back immediately to a statement that was made by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier), and which was carried in an article appearing in the Ottawa Citizen of February 23, in which he outlined his view in regard to competition with the railways brought about by trucking. I am fearful lest the minister adopt the policy that was attributed to him in the quotation from the Citizen that I referred to when I spoke the other day. In that quotation he said he feared that competition from trucking would be a serious handicap to the railways. On that occasion

he went so far as to say that the trucking business was operating beyond its economic radius. Out west we have only one source of competition with the railways. It is entirely different in eastern Canada, and it is also different in British Columbia. In eastern Canada there are the great lakes and the canal systems along the St. Lawrence river which offer fair competition in freight rates. In British Columbia they have the advantage of water transportation from Halifax and through the Panama canal up to British Columbia. That is a source of competition with the railways. In western Canada, and particularly in the western provinces, we have to depend on the competition of trucks to get us anywhere near a reasonable transportation rate.


Mr. Bryce:: The trucks are bound by the policy of the public and utility boards to charge railway rates.


Mr. Johnston:: Exactly. If the minister's ideas were correctly expressed in the Ottawa Citizen on February 23, then we can see a grave danger ahead for us, particularly in view of the increases already given to the railway companies, which affect us very materially in the west. I am wholeheartedly in favour of having a complete discussion of the freight rate structure carried on in the house. I should like to see a policy outlined which would benefit all of Canada, and not particularly one or two sections.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not want to enter into a discussion with my hon. friend on this subject at this time, because I know it could lead to some time being taken up in the house. I would like to suggest to him respectfully that he read the speech which I made. All he did was to read an article which was given to the press. If my hon. friend has not a copy of my remarks perhaps I can get him one.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have not a copy of the speech. I have to take what I saw in the press.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I asked the minister to table it.


Lionel Chevrier: I think he should read the speech, and when the main estimates are up, or on some other occasion, I should be quite willing to enter into discussion with my hon. friend on the subject. At this juncture, if I may, I should like to say this, Mr. Chairman. If we go into a general discussion on transportation matters I am afraid the Minister of Finance will never get his estimates through. I do not think it was the intention that we should do that. These are specific items. I am prepared to deal with general items, if that is the wish of the house. I do not think

it is the wish of the house. I think the wish of the house is to deal with these particular items in detail. With the co-operation of hon. members I would hope that it would be possible to get on with this.


Charles Edward Johnston: I would not like the impression to go abroad that the statement which was carried by the Citizen was wrong, because I now have a copy of the minister's speech. As I look over it I find that the statement which was carried by the Ottawa Citizen on February 23 is quite correct. Possibly the minister will say that it is a part taken from the whole. He could have some argument there. But the quotation carried in the Citizen is exactly the same as the text.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not saying that the Citizen's report is incorrect. I have not seen it. I think that it would be correct. All I am saying to my hon. friend is that the speech was fairly long, and in a report in the Citizen he would not get what is contained in the speech. I suggest to him that he read the speech. We can defer this discussion to a future date.


Douglas Charles Abbott: May I add my appeal to that of the Minister of Transport, Mr. Chairman? We are asked to vote $16,700 to cover additional amounts for telephones, telegrams and sundries, to clean up items for which commitments already have been made. I think a strict interpretation of the rules of these supplementary estimates is that hon. members' remarks should be directed to the item under discussion. Under the general item of departmental administration in the main estimates, by practice or convention, we discuss all the administration of the department. But if we are to finish today I would appeal to hon. members to restrict their remarks. There are a number of very important estimates to come before us, including the deficit of the Canadian National Railways. If we discuss transportation matters generally we shall be here forever.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I rise not to discuss this matter but to ask this question. Does the government look to the royal commission to make some finding or recommendation on this question of the relationship of federal and provincial jurisdiction with reference to the whole transportation problem, particularly with regard to, let us say, interprovincial and international traffic?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I cannot give a definite answer to that, other than to say that the terms of reference of the royal commission are pretty broad. They include quite a number of matters; they also include a general reference to transportation
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policy as a whole. What the royal commission will recommend I am not in a position to say, although I believe they have powers to recommend a general transportation policy for Canada.


Howard Charles Green: When is the report expected?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The point I want to make is that it is within the scope of the reference.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Further in regard to the severe shortage of refrigerator cars in New Brunswick, I should like to read the following telegram which I received from the Canadian Pacific Railway. It reads as follows:
Montreal, March 16, 1950-Your message yesterday to general freight manager Canadian Pacific Railway shortage refrigerators New Brunswick due to unusual demand this class car for movement apples from British Columbia to Vancouver account donation British Columbia to England also as result slow return our equipment to us due shortage coal United States railways we expect gradual improvement.
R. E. Taylor


Mr. Fraser:: I do not want to hold up this estimate, but on this item I want to ask one question. There was a million dollar fire in the transportation building in Quebec city last Friday night. The minister has not said anything to the house about it. According to the report the transportation building on the Quebec waterfront belonged to the Department of Transport. I wondered what that building was for and who did own it?


Lionel Chevrier: It is the building of the marine agency of the Department of Transport in the city of Quebec. It is the building which is connected with the agency which looks after administration of marine services for the lower St. Lawrence area. I have not had a complete report from our officers. There is someone down there now dealing with it. Until I have a report I am not in a position to say anything more.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: According to the report, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police are probing the fire. The reason I bring it up is this. We had another fire in an airplane hangar up near London, Ontario, which ran into a million dollars; we had one in the ordnance depot in Ottawa, which ran to three-quarters of a million dollars or more, and I wondered whether there, was not something wrong with the set-up. There is no proper fire protection or sprinkler system in those buildings or that would not happen. The minister might try some of the fire-resistant paint that I mentioned some time ago. It might help.


Howard Charles Green: When is it expected that the royal commission on transportation will report?

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Lionel Chevrier: The last discussion I had with the chairman was to the effect that he expected the completion of the arguments by the provinces to be effected fairly soon, and that after that the commission would have to give consideration to the tremendous volume of evidence. I am hopeful that it will be possible to have a report in 1950. I would not want to be committed to that. I would think that it would be sometime in 1951. I am speaking from the impression I received. I do not want my hon. friend to come later and say that the minister quoted such and such a date. My impression is that it is not likely to be much before 1951.


Howard Charles Green: It is perfectly clear, in any event, the report will not be in early enough for there to be any legislation introduced at this session.


Lionel Chevrier: I would say not.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: May I clear up a slight misunderstanding. At no time was I complaining about the Minister of Transport, so far as the supply of reefer cars was concerned. At all times I was endeavouring to give him information, and I accepted what he said as his understanding of what was correct, having in mind the source from which he was getting his information. I do say however that I knew it was not correct because the source from which I gained my information indicated clearly that there was a shortage of reefer cars.
Never at any time however did I complain, nor do I now, about the Minister of Transport. It was not his fault that the shortage existed. I shall not take further time to discuss the matter although, if time permitted, I would place on record some telegrams I received today.


Lionel Chevrier: I thank the hon. member for his remarks.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
616. Administration of pilotage, including authority for temporary recoverable advances; contributions and the operation and maintenance, as required, of necessary pilot vessels in certain pilotage districts-further amount required, $5,000.
Gordon Benjamin Isnor: When will the minister be in a position to make a report concerning the collision off Halifax harbour? I use the word "off" instead of "in", because it would be difficult for anyone to understand how a collision of that type could take place in Halifax harbour. The minister will recall that in that collision eleven fishermen lost their lives. He has already ordered an investigation and, if not today, I trust that in the near future he may be able to make a report.

Would he be good enough to have his marine officials look into the matter of setting up proper paths for incoming and outgoing shipping, such paths to be properly marked by buoys. I do not know whether this suggestion is feasible, but it has been placed before me in a letter.


Lionel Chevrier: I shall be glad to ask my officers to look into that suggestion. Also, when I have the report following the investigation-and I do not have it today-I shall be glad to give it to him.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
617. Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping-further amount required, $16,914.
Howard Charles Green: The minister will recall that late in the last session there was considerable discussion concerning the need of amending the shipping law and shipping regulations which became apparent from the Noronic disaster. I understand the department has drawn up new regulations which have been submitted to different parties across the country for their suggestions. Is it the intention of the minister to give the House of Commons, or any committee of the house, an opportunity to look over those regulations before they become law?
I understand there have been some substantial changes, and I suggest the regulations should be placed before a committee of the house, perhaps the committee on marine and fisheries. What is the plan in this connection?
On November 25, 1948, I asked him about the wreck of the steamship Chelohsin, off Stanley park, in Vancouver. At that time he said he was having an investigation made, and promised he would advise me of the results of that investigation. Has the report been made available? If so, would the minister table it?


Lionel Chevrier: I shall have to ask my officers where the matter stands. My recollection is that a report did come to my attention. I shall be glad to see that the hon. member gets it.
Then, as to the regulations arising out of the Noronic disaster: May I say there will be full opportunity for discussion of those regulations. When that will be I do not know. First of all, I made the statement, as the hon. member will recall, that the recommendations of the Kellock commission would be carried out.


Howard Charles Green: The new regulations?


Mr, Chevrier:: Yes. The regulations were made, but not put into effect. They were sent to all the bodies who would be interested, including ship owners and operators on both coasts. Representations were thereafter made to departmental officials and to me with respect to those regulations. I am not in a position yet to say that there has been any finality; but there will be full opportunity for discussion.


Howard Charles Green: Would there be any objection to furnishing members with a copy of the proposed regulations?


Lionel Chevrier: I would have to look into it, but I would not think there would be.


Mr. Stuart (Charlotte):: Mr. Chairman, may I refer to examinations of young men and old men who are applying for certificates to carry on their vocations on the water. I know of several cases where they have had difficulty because of the eye test given by officials of the Department of Transport.
I learned recently about a young man, forty-one years of age. I know this man well, and I know that he has been engaged on the water for twenty years. This man wished to obtain a certificate to engage in day work which would have involved his travelling four or five miles in each direction. On his eye test he was turned down.
That young man, his father or, if he were living, his grandfather, could go to the provincial government and obtain a permit to drive a car in traffic moving at 50, 60 or 70 miles an hour. Yet, when he wishes to travel on water at only eight or ten knots he is refused a certificate because of the failure of his eyesight. Perhaps many of the regulations might be enforced to a greater degree, but I believe the enforcement of this one should be given careful consideration. Young men who have spent their lives on the water, and who must have a certificate, should be given every consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
619.	River St. Lawrence ship channel-contract dredging in the St. Lawrence river and Montreal harbour, including cost of administration-capital- further amount required, $435,295.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: I should like to have further details on this item, because none are given. Does Montreal pay anything toward harbour costs?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is not like Toronto in that respect.


Lionel Chevrier: In Toronto the board of harbour commissioners is a corporate body,
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whereas in Montreal it is part of the national harbours. We vote money for the development of the harbour at Montreal, under the act.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does this amount of $435,295 represent the complete contract price?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What was the full contract price?


Lionel Chevrier: The full contract price for last year was $2,939,500.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is the name of the con-contracting firm?


Lionel Chevrier: Marine Industries Limited.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is that in rock or mud?


Lionel Chevrier: Both.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: In there it would be limestone.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Does this represent all the dredging contracts on the St. Lawrence in the year 1949-50?


Lionel Chevrier: I am not competent to answer that, because it is a matter which would come within the control of the Minister of Public Works. So far as the Department of Transport is concerned, this is the only division of my department that deals with dredging.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
620.	To provide towards the acquisition and reconditioning of two vessels for Pacific ocean weather station "P" (estimated cost $750,000) - capital, $165,000.
Donald MacInnis: This appears to be a new item, because there is no indication that it is a further amount required. Would the minister tell the committee from whom these vessels are to be acquired, where they will be stationed on the Pacific coast, and when the work will be completed? This is only a small part of the reconditioning expenses.


Lionel Chevrier: These vessels are being
acquired from Marine Industries Limited at a cost of $57,500 each. Speaking from memory only, their position will be approximately 500 miles north and west of Victoria.


Donald MacInnis: How long before the ships will be ready for service?


Lionel Chevrier: It is expected they will be ready some time this year.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is there only the one ship in the Atlantic in connection with the joint operations with the United States?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.

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Howard Charles Green: What company is building these ships?


Lionel Chevrier: They are being purchased from Marine Industries Limited and will be converted as weather ships.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service-Hudson Bay railway-
621.	Construction and improvements-capital-further amount required, $8,300.
Mr. Knight:: I have the greatest respect for at least one reason which motivates the Minister of Finance in trying to get these estimates through the committee, but this item represents such an important matter to northern Saskatchewan that I cannot let it pass without a word. We consider the development of the Hudson Bay railway as being vital to northern Saskatchewan. Reference was made last night, particularly by the hon. member for Souris, to the grain elevator at Saskatoon and the fact that it is not put to proper use.
It is our hope that in the days to come when the present wheat agreements will have run out there will be more occasion to store grain in northern Saskatchewan, particularly in Saskatoon. Our hope is that the elevator there will be used to a greater extent than it has been used during the past few years. With the wheat contracts there was a need for speedy delivery but that condition will be changed from now on and it is to be hoped that this grain elevator will be used for the purpose for which it was built.
I could make a speech on the notes I have here, but I shall reverse the method and instead of making a speech I shall simply use the notes. I have put down one or two things which I think are important and I shall state them in the shortest possible time. All things being equal, there is no doubt that it would be advantageous for the importers in the province to use that route. With a lengthening of the insurance period and a consequent lengthening of the navigation season the farmers could save money by shipping their wheat over this railroad, I believe to the extent of eleven or twelve cents per bushel. Because of the contracts with Great Britain our farmers have not been able to take advantage during the past few years of the saving that was possible.
A bill has been introduced by my colleague, the hon. member for Melville, to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act to place Churchill on the same footing as Vancouver, Port Arthur and Fort William as shipping points for wheat. Such an amendment would be of great help. The principal association promot-

ing the use of this port, the Hudson bay route association, are sending a delegation to Ottawa to ask for a greater use of this route. I plead with the government to give favourable consideration to their representations.
Because of the limited time in which insurance is applicable, only a partial use has been made of the time during which the port facilities could have been used. Insurance is applicable for 65 days from August 8 to October 10, and during that period the port facilities for the shipment of wheat were used for only 18 days last season. I am thankful that five and a half million bushels of wheat were shipped last year which was some small advance over the year before, but, as the Minister of Transport knows, that is only a token shipment from that port. With the full use of the facilities there is no reason why 20,000,000 bushels of wheat could not be shipped out during that time. If the period during which insurance is applicable were lengthened the amount that could be handled would be correspondingly greater.
We will be having certain gentlemen in eastern Canada, and perhaps in this house, saying that this railroad is a white elephant, that it is costing the taxpayers money, but I want to say to them that it has been demonstrated that if 15 million bushels were shipped through the port in one year it would eliminate that contention. If I am to keep my promise I shall have to stop, but there are three or four points I should like to stress.
First, we need the co-operation of the interested parties, the wheat board, the railways, the harbours board, the provincial governments and above all the federal government in order to encourage the use of this route.
Second, we should have the greatest possible quantity of imports and exports moved over this route.
Third, there should be a lengthening of the insurance period at both ends of the present period. It is rather ridiculous that a ship should be in that port a day or two before the insurance period commences and remain there for a couple of days in quiet waters waiting for that period to commence. As I have said on other occasions, this period should not be inflexible. After all, the weather varies from year to year and with the navigation services we have in those northern seas I do not see why the insurable season could not be made flexible. Captains of ships operating this route have brought that to my attention.
Lastly, I see no reason, from the surveys and reports we have received, why the insurance

rates should not be the same as those applying on shipments from other ports in Canada. The captains who sail these seas back me up in that contention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS Payments' to or for veterans and dependents-*
627. War veterans allowances-further amount required, $60,000.
John George Diefenbaker: Could items 627 and 628
stand? The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra has been here all afternoon but has been called away and will return momentarily.
Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Government-owned enterprises-deficits-
630. Additional amount in excess of the sum of $1,159,000 already appropriated, to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1949-further amount required, $62,230.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I suppose that under any one of these items reference may be made to the Canadian National Railways?


Douglas Charles Abbott: I would think that item 632 would be the most appropriate.


John George Diefenbaker: I shall restrict my remarks to just one phase of the operations of the Canadian National Railways. It has to do with a matter I brought to the attention of the Minister of Transport on one or two other occasions, as far back as July 2, 1947. I am not one of those who follow a course in the house of asking for expenditures to be made by the government and then, the expenditures having been made, rising subsequently to object because taxation is high. Any suggestions I have made concerning expenditures have been with respect to developments of a national character that will pay dividends.
I now want to bring to the attention of the minister a matter that is of transcendent importance to the employees of the Canadian National Railways, having to do with the improvement of the situation regarding their pensions, as provided for under the Canadian National pension fund. I speak particularly for the employees in the lower brackets, and I ask the support of hon. members in all parts of the house in behalf of those employees. On November 12 last a question
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was asked as to the number of retired employees of the Canadian National Railways in receipt of pensions of less than $25 a month. That question was asked by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, and similar questions have been asked on one or two occasions by myself as well. According to the figures brought down then there are in this country 55 retired employees of the Canadian National receiving less than $25 a month, and some 2,743 receiving only the basic pension of $25. Those receiving between $25 and $30 a month number 841. Between $30 and $39.99 per month the number is 664, and some 354 receive between $40 and $50.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I wonder if the hon. member would permit an interruption at that point. Similar questions were answered today, showing that in the lower brackets the situation is a little worse. It so happens that the 55 who were getting less than $25 a month are now down to 31, no doubt owing to deaths, but the group getting only $25 has gone up in number to 2,952.


John George Diefenbaker: The hon. gentleman
received replies to certain questions today that are generally similar to the statistics I gave as of November last, except that the situation has been intensified in respect to the number in receipt of the basic pension only.
When I brought this matter to the attention of the minister almost three years ago he stated that the attention of the board which looks after the administration of the pension scheme for the Canadian National would be directed to the representations made. I have no doubt the minister carried out that pledge, but it is apparent that nothing has been done to remedy the situation. It is a serious matter for the employees of the railway who, receiving the lower salaries, are unable to make provision for their own security. Indeed, those receiving this basic pension of $25 a month find that when they reach the age of seventy they are definitely prejudiced as compared with those who receive old age pensions at that age. After the basic pension is allowed for and a valuation of the property owned by the pensioner has been arrived at, in many cases the individual railwayman is denied a portion of, if not the entire, old age pension.
The basic pension paid by the Canadian National Railways is both picayune and inadequate. I am sure no one in this country, neither the government nor the people who own this railway, would have any objection to the payment of a fair and reasonable basic pension in place of that which prevails. In

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these days when private industry is prepared to pay a basic pension of $60 or $65 a month, with some contribution on the part of the employees, I believe the government as an employer should show the way in assuring a reasonable degree of security for its own employees.
Then I want to bring to the attention of the minister a complaint in connection with the administration of the pension fund. Altogether too much red tape is insisted upon in connection with proof of age and continuity of service. Numbers of Canadian National employees object most strenuously to the fact that, their continuity of service having been interrupted by being placed on the spare or *slow board, they are denied the pension for the entire period of their service. While they were unemployed they could not seek employment elsewhere; but, having a break in their service, are denied a pension proportionate to the period of time they have been with the company. I believe something should be done in this regard. Then, there is no reason why proof of age should be insisted upon to the *extent of a birth certificate or its equivalent. Surely the census information given by the parents of these employees seeking pension should be accepted as the best evidence of age in the absence of official documentation. Persons now approaching the age of sixty-five may have been born in an area where birth registration certificates were not as generally available as they are now.
The third suggestion I make is in connection with those who are out of work by reason of illness and are denied unemployment insurance. These employees contribute regularly to the unemployment insurance fund; it is compulsory. The only time they are able to collect any return under that insurance is when suitable work is not available. As far as railway and other similar employees are concerned, I believe provision should be made to ensure them protection under the Unemployment Insurance Act in the event that they become unemployed by reason of illness.
I am not going into further detail in connection with the pension system, except to say this. I think the time has come when we should enact legislation similar to the United States Retirement Act. It protects men in service on the railways, no matter where performed. Some Canadian National employees began their service on other lines and yet their service on those other lines cannot be counted in the computation of their pension.
I wish to ask the minister what was the result of the negotiations last fall between the unions and the Canadian National Railways in connection with the demand for a five-day

week and a seven-cent per hour increase in wages. I have been asked that question by a number of employees. What are the possibilities of acceptance of those terms, or at least a compromise?
Finally, sir, there is one other matter affecting the province of Saskatchewan, and northern Saskatchewan in particular. I know that the minister and nearly every other member of the house from Saskatchewan has received letters from Mrs. Gibbs, who lives in northwestern Saskatchewan, and who for some time has been conducting a one-woman campaign for the completion of the gap between Heinsburg and Frenchman's Butte in northwestern Saskatchewan. Persistently, in season and out of season, Mrs. Gibbs, representing the view of the people of northwestern Saskatchewan, has demanded the completion of this gap. The settlers who went in there twenty-five or thirty years ago find themselves in a forty-mile gap between the ends of a railway which begins nowhere and ends nowhere. To make it a useful, worth-while and paying railway branch line, I submit it should be completed. The gap between Bonnyville and St. Walburg should also be completed.
Anyone who goes into that area cannot but be impressed by the disadvantage suffered by the people who are served by railway lines in which a gap remains to be completed. Those settlers went in there believing that those lines would be completed. I ask the minister, when he replies, to give those people some hope that this work will soon be undertaken.
Again I ask the minister to bring to the attention of Canadian National Railways the fact that they have several thousand employees whose basic pension, after many years of service, is out of line, having regard to any other pension system in effect today; that it is unjust as to its amount, and that it denies to employees the security they rightfully should have, having regard to years of service rendered at comparatively low rates of pay.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I shall take only two or three minutes, for the obvious reason that my views about this matter are on record a great many times. But I want to support the representations put so well by the member for Lake Centre. I feel it should be indicated that there is wide support for the request that is being made for the reconsideration of the position of Canadian National employees, so far as pensions are concerned.
I want to thank the minister for his readiness to secure information and put it on Hansard every time I have asked a question

about the pensions of employees of the Canadian National. I think it is regrettable that the Canadian Pacific has refused to give the minister the same information, which he has tried to get, at my request. I believe we should have the figures for both railroads. My conversations with employees of both lines lead me to believe that the situation on the Canadian Pacific is probably even worse than it is on the Canadian National.
Since in the midst of what the member for Lake Centre was saying, I indicated that I had been given answers that were a little more up to date than what he was quoting from, may I summarize, in so far as I may be able to do it in a few moments, the information that was put on Hansard today? I point out that there are 15,413 Canadian National employees on pensions of various kinds. Of that figure, 6,997, or 45 per cent, are drawing pensions of less than $40 per month. One other figure I should like to give; of that total of 15,413, 12,210, or almost 80 per cent, are drawing pensions of less than $80 per month. I use those figures of $40 and $80 for the same reason I used the same figures last evening in connection with another item. Those are the amounts by way of old age pensions that a single or married person could draw if he had been unable to save anything else.
Some of these employees are receiving a basic non-contributory pension, it is true, but many of them have been contributing towards these pensions, and they have all been working for the railroad for many years, yet they draw a pension which, in some cases, is less than they could obtain under the Old Age Pensions Act. There seems to be an opinion abroad that railroad workers are in a preferred class; that they receive high wages and generous pensions. Well, here are the figures, and they show that that impression is wrong. The details supporting what I have said in these few remarks will be found, by those who are interested, in that portion of today's Hansard which gives the answers to the questions that were on the order paper.
Now, I need not go further today, Mr. Chairman, because of the pressure of time under which we are working, and because I have argued this matter so frequently. I do press upon the minister, however, the need for considering the position of Canadian National pensioners. I press upon the Canadian Pacific Railway as well the necessity for reconsidering the position of its pensioners, including its retired employees who get no pension at all. I hope it will not be long before something is done.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Just before the item carries, I understand the minister is going to make some
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reply, so I want to say in brief form that I support the representations which have been made by the two hon. members. I do hope the minister can consider the matter, not only with regard to the retirement pensions themselves, but also with respect to the position of those railway employees who have become sick, and particularly those who are forced to retire before the normal retirement age owing to ill health, and that he will impress upon his colleague, the Minister of Labour, the desirability of making some provision in the Unemployment Insurance Act so that these people who, in effect, are out of work because they are sick

that is not the technical position, I know, but that is what the position is in effect-will not be denied the benefits from the fund into which they have been paying over many years of employment.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


John George Diefenbaker: What has the minister to say generally? I think the railway employees have the right to a declaration.


Lionel Chevrier: I consider these matters to be of such importance that I do not think I can in a minute or two reply to the questions that my hon. friend has raised. My hon. friend has taken about fifteen minutes-I know he has covered it quickly-to deal with several fairly important matters. My suggestion to him and to the committee is that perhaps I might be allowed to make a statement when my main estimates are up for consideration.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


John George Diefenbaker: I will not raise any objection to that procedure, but would the minister not be in a position to state the present position of negotiations with the union with regard to the five-day week?


Lionel Chevrier: No, I am not. That is a matter which concerns the Minister of Labour. I have some knowledge of it; but as it is a matter which comes under his jurisdiction, I think I should not attempt to deal with it.


John George Diefenbaker: It is under whose jurisdiction?


Lionel Chevrier: The Minister of Labour's.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
632.	Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company, to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of
55946-65-66
[Stage Direction]
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the national company) arising in the calendar year 1949, this amount to be applied in the repayment of accountable advances made to the national company from the consolidated revenue fund

Canadian National Railways, exclusive of eastern lines, $25,709,703; eastern lines, $16,333,325; total, $42,043,028.
George Alexander Drew: It is not my intention to discuss the details or the background of this item, large though it is. There is one reason particularly why I do not intend to do so at this time, in addition to the fact that these are supplementary estimates closing the accounts of the past fiscal year. The royal commission which is now considering all aspects of this problem has already had certain representations made to it, and will have others, which have a bearing on this large item that we are now called upon to deal with. There is, however, one subject that I think should be mentioned at this time.
Recently the services of the Canadian National were greatly reduced because of the statement that there was a shortage of coal. That matter can be discussed at a later time. However, in regard to this whole subject, the responsibility for what took place rests ultimately upon the government. The explanation that the reduction in services was due to a shortage of coal is one that I do not think can be accepted as covering the whole period during which that reduction of services was in effect. After all, this is not merely a question of cutting down services. What was extremely important, in addition to the inconvenience to the public, was the result to those who were working on the railways, and particularly those in the lowest income bracket. No matter what steps may be taken to economize on this road between now and the time that the royal commission will report, I believe that great care should be exercised so that in the future those steps of economy shall not cause the uncertainty and concern and the real difficulties which resulted from the curtailment in the past few months. The morale of those working on the Canadian National will be greatly affected by the course that is followed. I can only repeat that the explanation to the effect that this curtailment of services was due to a shortage of coal is hard to accept for a period of that kind when in this country we have such enormous supplies of coal both in Nova Scotia and in Alberta. Certainly some way could have been found if that was, in fact, at any time the real explanation. The workers on this railway during the years of war and under heavy pressure have given loyal and faithful service. I can only repeat that in whatever steps are taken in the future to meet the situation, in any steps of economy
[Mr. Chevrier.l
that may be taken, we should make sure in every possible way that it is not done in a manner which will affect the workers on the railway.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
633.	To hereby authorize and provide for payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to Trans-Canada Air Lines to be applied by Trans-Canada Air Lines in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of Trans-Canada Air Lines) resulting from the operations of Trans-Canada Air Lines and its subsidiary, Trans-Canada (Atlantic) Limited, during the calendar year 1949, this amount to be applied in the repayment of accountable advances made to the company from the consolidated revenue fund-Trans-Canada Air Lines, $1,419,444; Trans-Canada (Atlantic) Limited, $2,898,150; total $4,317,594.
George Alexander Drew: This item is one which calls for a somewhat different approach from that taken to the other items that have been before us. The other items that we have been discussing, are items which are closing out the accounts in regard to the various activities under the direction of the government; but this is the first time in the whole fiscal year that anything relating to this item has been before the house. There are reasons why an explanation should be given at this time for the figures that are now before us. The figure that we are called upon to deal with is a payment of $4,317,594 as a deficit in the operation of Trans-Canada Air Lines over the operating year of 1949. This item should certainly not be passed without an explanation to the committee as to why there has been this large increase in the deficit. At this point I think it would be well briefly to put on the record the trend that should be in the mind of every hon, member in being called upon to deal with this item.
In 1943 there was a surplus for the yeai of $147,888. I will simply use the ever dollars. In 1944 there was a surplus for the year of $7,409. In the year 1945 there was a surplus for the year of $32,722. In 194( there was a deficit for the year of $1,269,624 In 1947 there was a deficit for the year oi $1,624,739. In 1948 there was a deficit foi the year of $2,933,240. Now we are askec to provide for a deficit of $4,317,594 foi the year 1949. That figure is broken intc two amounts, according to this item ir the estimates. On the domestic services o1 Trans-Canada Air Lines for last year then is a deficit of $1,419,444; and on the transatlantic operation there is a deficit o: $2,898,150. The latter figure is of importance in view of the statements that wen made before the committee that dealt witl the previous report. That represents ai increased deficit of $236,422 on the domestii

services or the North American services, as they are described; and it represents an increased deficit of $1,147,932 on the overseas service. That large increase in the deficit on the overseas service follows an assurance last year by the general manager of the Trans-Canada Air Lines that there was every reason to believe the situation in regard to the overseas services would improve. It would be well now to go back to the time that this bill was put before the house and the anticipated situation at that time. On page 2043 of Hansard of March 22, 1937, there is a statement by the minister who was then introducing the bill, the present Minister of Trade and Commerce, and I quote these words:
It is thought that from the start the mail contract and such passenger and express business as is immediately available should cover the cost of the service. We have made provision, however, for a subsidy to protect the service in that period. After 1D40, as I have said, the subsidy provision expires, and the mail contract will be on the basis of cost of the service. I think that outlines fairly well the intention of the bill. The whole matter can be more fully considered when the bill is brought down.
In other words, at that time it was expected that the extension of the service was going to make the Trans-Canada Air Lines selfsupporting. Today we find ourselves in the position where the surpluses of the years during the war are now giving way to greatly increasing deficits. I might point out that in 1940 there was a surplus of something in the neighbourhood of $500,000. In a speech on March 20, 1941, the present Minister of Trade and Commerce estimated that the surplus for that year would be $60,523. In view of those surpluses, in view of the increasing deficits, it seems that before we are called upon to pass on this there should be a detailed explanation of the reason that the expectation of the general manager of the Trans-Canada Air Lines last year was not fulfilled, and why we have this large increase in the deficit on the overseas services, in addition to a smaller increase in the deficit on the domestic operations.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Mr. Chairman, the annual report of the Trans-Canada Air Lines has just reached my desk. It will be tabled in the house on Friday. We hope the committee on government-owned enterprises will sit next week and will examine the results of the operations for the fiscal year 1949-50 and the forecast of this year's operations. I think my hon. friend will agree that to try to duplicate that work, or to anticipate it, in committee of the whole, would be defeating the purpose of having estimates referred to committees of the house.
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Edmund Davie Fulton: Estimates are not referred.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This particular estimate will not be, but the estimates of the railways will be.


Edmund Davie Fulton: As I recall it, it is not the practice to refer the estimates to the committee, but merely the reports.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure the hon. member that the estimates will be referred to the committee.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Only the estimates of External Affairs are ever sent to a committee.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have been associated with this for many years. I can assure my hon. friend that certain items in the estimates are referred to that committee and are reported back to the house.


Edmund Davie Fulton: If the minister will permit me, Mr. Chairman, I have in my hand the report of the committee of last year. Subject to correction, my reading of the third report does not indicate that the estimates were before the committee. I was a member of the committee. I do not remember that we considered the estimates, certainly not any estimate-


Clarence Decatur Howe: I assure my hon. friend that torn irrow the Minister of Transport will move that certain items in the estimates be referred to the committee on government-owned railways and shipping.


Edmund Davie Fulton: This one will not be referred.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, that is correct. Trans-Canada Air Lines had a very bad year last year, much worse than anticipated. Several factors contributed to that. The fundamental factor is growing pains. In July, 1948, the number of seat miles flown by Trans-Canada was more than doubled by the introduction of bigger equipment. As far as the transatlantic service was concerned, it was realized that there would be a movement from summer peaks to empty seats in the wintertime. To offset that, services were developed to the Caribbean, which are showing much better results this year than were shown last year when the routes were being initiated. Put simply, the load factor was below the break-even point of the system. Of course the system has also been faced with increasing operating costs, just as every other transportation system has been faced with higher operating costs. That is a summary. I could go into some of the circumstances that were responsible for the loss of a good deal of traffic last year; for instance, crashes all over the world were responsible. I may say that a crash in India has a repercussion on domestic and particularly on overseas lines of Trans-Canada Air Lines-or a crash anywhere in the world, for that matter.

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Somehow or other the rumour started last April and May that the North Star planes were, unsafe, and there was a very marked drop in traffic during the months of May and June, arising out of that rumour, which I think we now know was wholly unfounded. That is a broad sweeping outline of the reasons why we had a bad statement last year. This year we predict an operating result which will show a substantial profit for the domestic lines, and a substantial loss for the overseas lines. I am happy to say that in the two months to date a very substantial improvement has been made on the operating results that were predicted by the management at the turn of the year.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us those figures?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not got them now. They will be available to the railway committee of which I believe my hon. friend is a member. The beauty of the committee is that the management is there with every possible figure that anyone may require. As I say, this annual report just reached me today. I have not the figures available to go into any extensive analysis.


George Alexander Drew: Did I understand the minister to say that this committee will be sitting this week?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We hope so, yes.


George Alexander Drew: If that is so, it may of course be possible to deal that much more quickly with these items.
I want to refer to one statement that the minister has made. There were no rumours last year about the North Star. There were statements that were related to instructions that were given by the officials of the Trans-Canada Air Lines, which referred to the difficulty that they were having in regard to the engines in those planes. If there was any public impression related to those statements it was a public impression that was related to instructions that were given primarily by Mr. Slemon, who was directing flying operations of the Trans-Canada Air Lines. However, that can be dealt with in the committee, and will be dealt with then.
At the moment I was referring particularly to the break-down of these losses, because it would help hon. members to have some understanding of where these various increased deficits have arisen. If the statement is to be available to us on Friday, and this can be considered in the committee next week, I do agree that this subject could very well be discussed at that time. Of course we are called upon to pass on an item of $4,317,594.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Unfortunately that money is spent.


George Alexander Drew: I recognize the fact that the money is spent and nothing we can do will unspend it. I do agree, therefore, that it will be best to dispose of this item now, and then to go into the component features of it before the committee so that we shall have the information available to us in dealing with the estimates for next year.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Before the item carries it should be pointed out that the remarks made by the minister this year, as to the forecasting of greatly improved conditions, particularly in the Atlantic service, bear a striking similarity to the forecast made last year, when an improvement was forecast. Despite that we are now asked to authorize the payment of a deficit of over a million dollars greater than the one before.
In this connection I would refer to the observations made by the general manager of the air lines, as reported at page 313 of the proceedings of the committee on railways and shipping for 1949. On that occasion I was asking him why the emphasis was being placed on this transatlantic service when the trend seemed to be toward deficits. The manager stated at that time, and was supported by the minister who was also before the committee, that he felt confident this position of deficits would not long continue, and that substantial improvement would be shown in the year's operations. Those are the operations for the year now reflected in this deficit of $2,898,150.	.
This is what took place on that occasion, when I had said that the report showed an increasing trend toward deficits in the overseas service:
Mr. Fulton, again, as yesterday, I disagree, both as to the interpretation of the wording and what I believe to be the trend. It says, "at the present time,"-referring to the 1948 conditions, and the 1948 report,-and this certainly was the case, but I can very definitely assure you that our financial returns on our overseas operations for 1949 show improvement, and that the months that have already gone by would indicate that these estimates are very close to accurate.
That was on April 6, 1949. Three months of that year had already gone by, and the manager, supported by the minister, said that the conditions showed that there would be a further improvement for that year.
Then, earlier in the same sitting, as reported at page 275, he is reported to have said:
The trend in the Atlantic operation, as forecast for the year 1949, is also a reduced deficit.
I point out the striking similarity between what was said last year, in forecasting a

reduced deficit, and what the minister has just said this afternoon. The fact is that we are dealing with a deficit which is over a million dollars greater than that in the preceding year. I cannot see where the minister has given us any concrete reasons for believing that we will not be called upon next year to vote an even greater deficit than that for which we are asked this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS Loans and investments-
634.	To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; refund of surplus to veterans (section 19); and for protection of security under the Veterans Land Act-further amount required. $1,425,000.
Mr. Wright:: May I call to the attention of the minister the matter of making loans as well as grants available for the purchase of farms in western Canada. Out there, there are numbers of large farms on the market, which have been operated as units. Some returned men are desirous of going on the land but, as individuals, they find it impossible to secure these farms, because they are too large. However, if they operated co-operatively, and if loans as well as grants were made available, they could purchase these farms for operation co-operatively. We have had considerable experience in Saskatchewan in the operation of such farms, and such operation has worked out successfully. I suggest it would be advisable for the minister at this time to give consideration to a request which has been made by, I believe, the Saskatchewan government, that these loans be made available to returned men who wish to take part in co-operative farming. Co-operative farming has been done successfully where grants have been made available, and this has been of great assistance to the returned men.
However, they would ask the minister to go a little further, and make loans as well as grants available.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I shall study the situation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Joseph-Alfred Dion: Only items 627 and 628 are
left for consideration. We will proceed with the first of these:
627.	War veterans allowances-further amount required, $60,000.


Howard Charles Green: The committee will notice that one of these items asks a further amount for war veterans allowances, while the second is for a further amount in the special assistance fund, from which extra payments can be made to recipients of war veterans allowance. It is obvious that the Department
Supply-Veterans Affairs of Veterans Affairs underestimated the amount that would be required. That means that they underestimated the hardships and sufferings of the veterans entitled to war veterans allowance.
That is the first point I wish to make. My second point is that in the break-down of the item, as set out at page 14, we find that a third of the amount required for war veterans allowances is for veterans of the second world war. I do not know what proportion of the special assistance fund is to be applied to help those veterans. It is now perfectly obvious however that the war veterans allowance is becoming of great importance not only to the veterans who served in the first world war, but also to those who served in the second.
I suggest the time has now come to increase these war veterans allowances to the amount received by old age pensioners. The veteran of both world wars is the charge of the dominion government. As such he should receive just as much as is paid to a civilian who is primarily the charge of his or her province. The time has come to give consideration to an increase in war veterans allowances.
Furthermore, I would urge again upon the minister the necessity of setting up at this session a special committee to deal with veterans affairs. He is proposing changes in the War Veterans' Allowance Act. He proposes to bring in men who served in the allied forces, and is also proposing to decentralize the administration so far as the making of awards is concerned.
These are important changes in the act- sufficiently important, I suggest, to call for the setting up of a special committee. This is not the opportune moment to discuss the matter at length, but I would ask the minister whether or not under the circumstances he would reconsider the stand taken by the government, to the effect that there will be no increase in the war veterans allowance, and that there will be no special committee at this session. Is the minister not willing to reconsider those decisions?


Percy Ellis Wright: May I support the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra in what he has said with respect to setting up a committee to study war veterans allowances and other matters affecting veterans. Today the war veterans allowance is $40.41, I believe, and in at least three of the provinces the old age pension exceeds that amount. In addition, in at least three of the provinces, old age pensioners get complete medical services whereas our war veterans get only partial medical services.

Supply-Veterans Affairs


Howard Charles Green: The wife gets more as well.


Percy Ellis Wright: That does not seem fair. I submit that the department should provide an additional grant of at least $85 to take care of emergency cases.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is in addition to half a million provided before.


Percy Ellis Wright: In addition to that.


Douglas Charles Abbott: There is $60,000 of an underestimate in connection with an item of $20 million.


Percy Ellis Wright: That simply proves my point. The emergency exists and it must be met by these additional votes. If the war veterans allowance was sufficient and if complete medical services were provided these emergency grants would not be necessary. I am quite sure the minister will agree that about 75 per cent of these cases are due to sickness, either of a veteran or of members of his family. I think it is time that we gave complete medical services to those who are receiving war veterans allowances. The only way this matter can be dealt with effectively is by setting up a committee where these things can be discussed and given fair consideration.


Victor Quelch: Mr. Chairman, I would have liked to speak at some length on this item but in view of the fact it is only a few minutes to six o'clock I rise simply to support what has been said by the two previous speakers. I think the Minister of Veterans Affairs should explain why the government has refused to set up a committee on war veterans affairs. In the past it has been customary to set up such a committee at the start of each new parliament. I presume the government must have some special reason for refusing to set up a committee, but the fact is that hon. members are receiving resolutions from the Legion and other organizations asking for amendments to the War Veterans' Allowance Act and these matters can be discussed effectively only in a committee.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I am going to take only a minute or two to indicate my support of the opinions expressed by the previous speakers. The proposal by the Canadian Legion that a parliamentary committee on veterans affairs be appointed should receive further consideration by the minister. I am sure the minister and all hon. members will admit that throughout the years the Canadian Legion has made constructive and sound proposals to the government and to hon. members of this house, as a result of which we have the present War Veterans' 
Allowance Act, the amendments to the Pension Act, to the Veterans' Land Act and to the rehabilitation act.
I think the request of the Canadian Legion that the rate for single men should be increased to $50 and for married men to $85 is modest. While the special assistance has been of great help to a large number of veterans, [ think hon. members will agree that a satisfactory solution will not be reached until the basic rate is increased. I could go on at some length and I shall have more to say on veterans affairs when the main estimates are under consideration, but in conclusion I urge the minister to reconsider the proposals of the Canadian Legion, particularly those affecting war veterans allowances.


Douglas Charles Abbott: May I just interject to say that perhaps Your Honour will not watch the clock too closely, particularly as there is another item of $1,425,000 in connection with the Veterans' Land Act. This is one of the most urgent items in the bill as we have had to stop making these payments. I have two bills to put through and I would hope that perhaps you would not watch the clock too closely.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I am sure that none of the hon. gentlemen who have spoken expect me to deal with these questions in full this afternoon. I shall be prepared to do so on my main estimates. However, to answer the question asked by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, first as to the setting up of a committee and second, as to increasing the basic rate, I would say that I have considered the matter fully and up to the present time I am not prepared to recommend an increase in the basic rate or the setting up of a committee at this session.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.

Douglas Charles Abbott: Perhaps I should formally move:
That the house be not adjourned at six o'clock p.m. this day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Douglas Charles Abbott: that the house go into committee of ways and means.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee, Mr. Dion in the chair.
Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1950, the following sums be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, namely, the sum of $65,986,459, being the amount of each of the items as set forth in the further supplementary estimates (3) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1950.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Abbott thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 14, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1950.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.
Douglas Charles Abbott: that the house go into committee of supply.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Dion in the chair.



INTERIM SUPPLY

Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $233,837,011.33, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the several items to be voted, as set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1951, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament; and in addition thereto, a sum not exceeding $1,125,000, being three-quarters of the amount of item 170, a sum not exceeding $1,900,666.66, being one-third of the amount of items 30, 430, 497, a sum not exceeding $324,283.16, being one-sixth of the amount of items 70, 172, 175, 176, and a sum not exceeding $2,614,658.75, being one-twelfth of the amount of items 66, 94, 189, 191, 192, 361, 362 , 366 , 374, 375 , 377, 380, 384, 385 , 386 , 425, 432, 434 , 559, of the said estimates be granted to His Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1951.
He said: Mr. Chairman, this is the usual resolution asking for interim supply. The general proportion of one-sixth, that is two months, for all services is intended to provide for all the necessary ordinary requirements; and in addition, as usual I am asking for one-third of certain special items. The item in agriculture covers the freight assistance on western feed grains. The item in trade and commerce covers the Canadian international trade fair. The item in transport covers the royal commission on national transportation. An additional one-sixth is being asked of certain items. The item in
Interim Supply
external affairs has to do with Canadian representation at international conferences, to meet the expenses of certain conferences which will be held in the early months of the year. The items under the Senate and House of Commons, general administration, are necessary because our heaviest expenditures come in the early months of the year. An additional one-twelfth, that is one month, is being asked on the vote under finance covering the wartime prices and trade board administration, while the additional one-twelfth under mines and technical surveys is required to enable the department to provide for the early equipping of survey parties and their dispatch to the field as soon as possible.
There is one item which is unusual, and to which I direct the attention of the committee. I am asking for an additional three-quarters of one item, that is the vote in the main estimates covering unemployment assistance to certain residents of Newfoundland, to give effect to the terms of union with Canada. In this case it is found that the expenditures are running greatly in excess of what was estimated by the Department of Labour, when the estimates were prepared in January; and I should say here that it will be necessary to ask for a supplementary estimate at a fairly early date.
The form of the bill is exactly the same as the one which was passed at this time last year, and as the bills that have been passed in previous years. Of course I give the usual undertaking that the passing of the bill will not prejudice the rights and privileges of hon. members to criticize any items in the estimates which may come up for consideration from time to time during the rest of the session. The undertaking is given that such rights and privileges will be respected and will not be curtailed or restricted in any way as a result of the passing of this interim supply bill.


George Alexander Drew: It is not our intention to discuss the details of these matters, because this is just the formal procedure to meet the requirements until the general estimates can be discussed. We accept the assurance of the Minister of Finance that this is done without prejudice to the further discussion of these items.


Douglas Charles Abbott: May I add that I greatly appreciate the co-operation which has been shown in the committee yesterday and today.


Stanley Howard Knowles: In the special case the minister referred to, did I understand he is asking for three-quarters in addition to one-sixth, making a total of eleven months?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.

Ways and Means


Stanley Howard Knowles: But one month is still left so we may discuss the item?


Douglas Charles Abbott: That is correct.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I believe the minister referred to expenditures on the Newfoundland services being in excess of what was estimated.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Unemployment assistance.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I believe receipts are equally in excess of what was anticipated.


Douglas Charles Abbott: This is not the insurance item; this is for unemployment assistance.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.


Douglas Charles Abbott: that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Dion in the chair.


Douglas Charles Abbott: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1951, the following sums be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, namely:
1.	The sum of $233,837,011.33, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1951;
2.	The sum of $1,125,000, being three-quarters of the amount of item 170 of the said estimates;
3.	The sum of $1,900,666.66, being one-third of the amount of items 30, 430, 497 of the said estimates;
4 The sum of $324,283.16, being one-sixth of the amount of items 70, 172, 175, 176 of the said estimates; and
5. The sum of $2,614,658.75,. being one-twelfth of the amount of items 66, 94, 189, 191, 192, 361, 362, 366, 374, 375, 377, 380, 384, 385, 386, 425 , 432, 434, 559, of the said estimates, as set forth in the resolution concurred in this day in the committee of supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.
Mr. Abbott thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 15, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1951.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.

Alphonse Fournier: the adjournment of the house.

He said: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow is government day, so we shall proceed with the following items: Resolution No. 16 on today's order paper, concerning a bill to amend the Agricultural Products Act; resolution No. 18 on today's order paper, concerning the Agricultural Prices Support Act, 1944. Those resolutions are in the name of the Minister of Agriculture.
Then we shall proceed with resolution No. 19 on today's order paper, concerning the Fisheries Prices Support Act, 1944. There are three resolutions in the name of the Minister of National Defence, Nos. 21, 22 and 11 on today's order paper. If those resolutions are carried, and we have time left, we will proceed with the resolutions in the names of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Nos. 12 and 20 on today's order paper. We still hope to have time left to pass the motion of the Secretary of State for External Affairs to refer his estimates to the committee.


Howard Charles Green: After that?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, if we have time. We really hope to make progress, because those are only the resolutions, and we would like to have the bills before the house for early consideration.


Donald MacInnis: Mr. Speaker, will the resolutions be taken in the order in which they were named by the minister?


Alphonse Fournier: As for the first three, we will proceed in that order. As to the three resolutions in the name of the Minister of National Defence, I have not consulted him about the order but I would advise him. to start with the small resolution, I suppose.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 6.15 p.m.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:	[DOT]



DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
B-General-
Atomic energy control board-
614.	Chalk river project-capital and operating expenses-further amount required, $200,000.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department-
615.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $16,700.
Marine service-
616.	Administration of pilotage, including authority for temporary recoverable advances; contributions, and the operation and maintenance, as required, of necessary pilot vessels in certain pilotage districts-further amount required, $5,000.
617.	Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping-further amount required, $16,914.

618.	To provide for the repayment to a proper authority or to the government of the United Kingdom of excepted expenses, as defined in section 286(5) of the Canada Shipping Act, incurred by the said government for the relief, maintenance and repatriation of distressed seamen left behind out of Canada, from ships registered in Canada, or of distressed Canadian seamen left behind out of Canada from ships other than of Canadian registry, and to provide for the repayment to shipowners, or agents, up to the amount of the seamen's forfeited wages, of expenses incurred by such owners or agents and referred to in section 283 or 295 of the Canada Shipping Act, $3,000.
619.	River St. Lawrence ship channel-contract dredging in the St. Lawrence river in Montreal harbour, including cost of administration-capital- further amount required, $435,295.
620.	To provide towards the acquisition and reconditioning of two vessels for Pacific ocean weather station "F" (estimated cost $750,000)-capital, $165,000.
Railway service-Hudson Bay Railway-
621. Construction and improvements-capital- further amount required, $8,300.
Maritime Freight Rates Act-
622.	Additional amount in excess of the sum of $5,503,000 already appropriated to authorize and provide for the payment from time to time during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company of the difference (estimated by the Canadian National Railway Company and certified by the auditors of the said company to the Minister of Transport as and when required by the said minister) occurring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (upon the same basis as set out in section 9 of the said act with respect to companies therein referred to) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1949 under the tariffs approved on the eastern lines (as referred to in section 2 of the said act) of the Canadian National Railways-further amount required, $190,771.
Air service-civil aviation division-
623.	Control of civil aviation, including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder-further amount required, $13,000.
624.	Contribution to the government of Denmark as Canada's share in the joint support of north Atlantic air navigation facilities in the Faroes and Greenland1, $174,967.
Demobilization and reconversion-air service-civil aviation division-
Airways and airports-
625.	Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport-further amount required, $8,000.
B-Canadian Maritime Commission-
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-Eastern local services-
626.	Campobello, N.B., and Lubec, Maine, service between-further amount required, $667.

[Stage Direction]
Payments to or for veterans and dependents-
627.	War veterans allowances-further amount required, $60,000.
628.	To authorize under regulations to be approved by the governor general in council the establish-
Supply
ment of an assistance fund (war veterans allowance) from which shall be paid supplementary assistance in cases of acute financial distress as may be found to exist from time to time among recipients of benefits under the War Veterans Allowance Act, 1946-further amount required, $85,000.
Miscellaneous payments-
629.	Employers liability compensation-further amount required, $25,000.

[Stage Direction]
Government-owned enterprises-Deficits-
630.	Additional amount in excess of the sum of $1,159,000 already appropriated, to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance, and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1949-further amount required, $62,230.
631.	Additional amount in excess of the sum of $360,000 already appropriated to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited (hereinafter called the company) of the amount of the deficit occurring during the year ending December 31, 1949, in the operations of the company and the vessels under the control of the company, as certified by the auditors of the company, and upon applications made by the company to the Minister of Finance and approved by the Minister of Transport-further amount required, $100,498.
632.	Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company, to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) arising in thq calendar year 1949, this amount to be applied in the repayment of accountable advances made to the national company from the consolidated revenue fund-Canadian National Railways, exclusive of eastern lines, $25,709,703; eastern lines, $16,333,325, total $42,043,028.
633.	To hereby authorize and provide for payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to Trans-Canada Air Lines to be applied by Trans-Canada Air Lines in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of Trans-Canada Air Lines) resulting from the operations of Trans-Canada Air Lines and its subsidiary, Trans-Canada (Atlantic) Limited, during tlie calendar year 1949, this amount to be applied in the repayment of accountable advances made to the company from the consolidated revenue fund- Trans-Canada Air Lines, $1,419,444; Trans-Canada (Atlantic) Limited, $2,898,150, total $4,317,594.
DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS Loans and investments-
634.	To provide for purchase of land and permanent improvements; cost of permanent improvements to be effected; removal of encumbrances; stock and equipment; refund of surplus to veterans (section 19); and for protection of security under the Veterans Land Act-further amount required, $1,425,000.