1950-04-19

Mr. W. G. Weir (Porlage-Neepawa) moved:: That the name of Mr. Noseworthy be substituted for that of Mr. Maclnnis on the standing committee on external affairs.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


William Gilbert Weir: That the name of Mr. Cannon be substituted for that of Mr. Gingues on the joint committee on old age security; and that a message be sent to the Senate to inform Their Honours thereof.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received from Hon. Mr. Justice Belleau and Hon. Mr. Justice Savard, two of the judges of the Superior Court of Quebec selected for the trial of an election petition pursuant to the Dominion Controverted Elections Act, the report and judgment rendered by the said judges relating to the election for the electoral district of Dorchester.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Maclnnis:: 1.	Has the government made proposals to the provinces, seeking their co-operation for the establishment of a contributory scheme of old age pensions without a means test?
2.	If so, on what date were the proposals made?
3.	Have replies been received from any of the provinces, and what was the nature of such replies?


Mr. Marlin:: 1.	In 1945 the government of Canada, as part of the general proposals put before the dominion-provincial conference on reconstruction, proposed that the government establish a system of national old age pensions entirely financed and administered by the federal government and paid at the uniform rate of 55946-1081
$30 per month, regardless of means, to men and women aged seventy and over in all parts of Canada. Reference to this specific item will be found on pages 37 and 38 of the book entitled "Proposals of the Government of Canada" and commonly referred to as the green book. On page 42 of the green book, under the heading "Implementation and Financing of Old Age Pensions and Health Insurance", further reference was made to pensions payable without a means test, as follows:
"The proposed system of old age pensions payable as of right without means test to persons seventy or over would be instituted and administered by the dominion government and specific agreements with provincial governments would not be essential to its implementation.
"It is within the power of the dominion to finance its share of the combined cost of health insurance and of old age pensions out of the consolidated revenue fund with such modification of taxation as would be justified, in the opinion of parliament, by the universal benefits of health insurance and old age pensions and by the other purposes of dominion expenditure.
"There are, however, some definite advantages in terms of administrative efficiency, compliance, and popular understanding of the plans, in introducing features more specifically contributory in nature and tied up more closely with the provisions of health insurance and old age pension legislation. These additional and desirable features would be helpful in the early and effective inauguration of the plans and the dominion government asks that they be provided for in specific agreements with the provincial governments".
2.	In 1945.
3.	As the proposal of the federal government regarding national old age pensions was made as part of the general proposals put before the dominion-provincial conference, the replies of the provinces dealing with the general proposals embraced the proposal dealing with national old age pensions.


BAIT-FREEZING AND STORAGE PLANTS
Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelburne):: 1.	During each of the years 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949, how many applications were received for assistance in the construction and operation of fishermen's bait-freezing and storage plants?

Questions
2.	In each of these years, how many applications were (a) approved; (b) refused; (c) are still under consideration?
3.	To whom, and in what amounts was assistance given during each of these years?


Mr. MacNaughl:: 1 and 2.	1949	1948	1947	1946Applications for assistance	. . 5	4	2	3Approved	. . 1	3	-	-Refused 	.. 2	-	2	1Under consideration 2	1	-	2
3.
E. E. Cunningham & Sons, Clark's Harbour, N. S., $900, payment not yet completed.
Cheticamp Cold Storage, Cheticamp, N.S., $10,000, owned and operated by Nova Scotia government.
Eastern Packing Co., Souris, P.E.I., $4,100, payment completed in 1949.
P.E.I. Industrial Corporation (plants at Charlottetown and Tignish), $30,000, payment completed in 1950.
N. B.: In addition to above items, a number of inquiries concerning assistance have been received, and it is anticipated that some of these will lead to formal applications being received in the near future.


LABOUR CONDITIONS-CHATEAU LAURIER, OTTAWA
Mr. Blackmore:: 1.	What time in the morning do the girls working at the desk of the Chateau Laurier hotel, on the first shift, come on duty?
2.	What time does this particular shift finish work each day?
3.	How long do these girls have for lunch hour?
4.	How many Sundays off are allowed each month to the waiters in the main dining room of the Chateau Laurier?


Mr. Chevrier:: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Mail and information desks, 7.15 a.m.; cashiers, 7.30 a.m.
2.	Mail and information desks, 3.45 p.m.; cashiers, 4 p.m.
3.	One-half hour.
4.	None. The main dining room is the only room where meals are served on Sunday and the entire staff are required on duty that day. All employees in the hotel get one day off a week; where possible this is Sunday.


PUGWASH, N.S., LIGHTKEEPERS
Mr. Black (Cumberland):: 1.	Who are the keepers of the range lights at Pug-wash, Nova Scotia?
[Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelbume) .1
2.	What salary is paid per year for this service?
3.	Are the keepers under the civil service?
4.	Are the keepers allowed to actively engage in politics by (a) holding office in political organizations; (b) supplying and operating conveyances for voters at federal and provincial elections?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	William Donald Colborne; John. Fullerton.
2.	Salary range for each keeper is $315 to $345 per annum.
3.	The positions are exempt from the operation of the Civil Service Act.
4.	This question appears to fall within the same general category as certain questions which appeared on the order paper earlier in the session and which were answered orally toy the Prime Minister on pages 352, 842 and 1,004 of Hansard.


SURVEYS AND MAPPING
Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelburne):: 1.	What steps have been taken by the surveys and mapping branch of the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys with respect to the appointment of a chief engineer on the C.G.S. Fort Frances?
2.	Has such appointment been made?
3.	What are the names of those who made application for the position?
4.	What are the qualifications, including certificates, of each applicant?
5.	Did any of such applicants see service in the Royal Canadian Navy during world war II? If so, which of them?
6.	Does the person appointed or to be appointed possess the highest qualifications?


Mr. Maybank:: 1.	Applications from six candidates were studied and a recommendation made to the department for the appointment of the most suitably qualified certificated engineer.
2.	Yes.
3.	James Croy Handley, A. Y. F. Scott, J. R. James, Andrew Shaw Cleveland, J. D. Clark, Arthur C. C. Beaman.
4.	James Croy Handley. Holds first-class board of trade certificate (steam), No. 84314. Five years in Canadian ships, four years as chief engineer Scotch and water tube boilers, coal and oil burning, five years apprenticeship, 10J years' sea service, chief engineer
S.S. Shelburne County.
A. V. F. Scott. Holds first-class board of trade certificate (steam); apprenticeship on the Clyde, 1918 to 1923. Seagoing experience 1925 to 1939. Service with Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering, Glasgow; British India Steam Navigation Company; Imperial Oil Company; United States Lines; German and Milne, Montreal; Canadian Navy; Dartmouth ferry commission, Hudson's Bay Company.

Questions
James Russell James. Holds second-class certificate (steam). Fireman, great lakes, 1923 to 1925. Chief and second engineer inland waters, coasting and foreign trade, 1937 to 1950.
Andrew Shaw Cleveland. Holds second-class certificate (steam), No. 14710 (valid in United Kingdom); first-class certificate (motor) No. 638 (Canada); four years apprenticeship machine shop; twenty-four years at sea; Imperial Oil, Markland Shipping Company, Canadian National Steamships, Canadian Navy.
J. D. Clark, Lt. Cdr. (RCN). Holds firstclass board of trade certificate (steam), 1937; chartered member Institute of Marine Engineers, London, England, apprenticeship four years; marine engineer cable ships twenty years; Canadian Navy active service \\ years; naval manager, Shelburne naval base, two years. On staff of superintendent H.M.C. Dockyard, Halifax.
Arthur C. C. Beaman. Holds second-class certificate (steam), No. 13421 (Canada); marine engineer Canadian National Steamships 1936 to 1940; Lt. Cdr. Royal Canadian Navy (#), 1940 to 1946; assistant to commander (E) ship repairs (east coast) Canadian Navy; maintenance R.C.N. Algerine class ships (H.M.C.S. Fort Frances, etc.).
5.	Yes A. V. F. Scott, Andrew Shaw Cleveland, J. D. Clark, Arthur C. C. Beaman.
6.	Yes.


HEALTH AND WELFARE
Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: What amount was spent in Newfoundland, during the year ending March 31. 1950, for (a) old age pensions; (b) family allowances; (c) other expenditures by the Department of National Health and Welfare?


Mr. Martin:: (a)	To December 31, 1949 (the accounts for old age and blind pensions for the quarterly period January 1 to March 31, 1950, have not yet been submitted by the province of Newfoundland); old age pensions, $1,448,573.71; blind pensions, $19,155.00; total, $l,467,728.7l'.
(b)	To March 15, 1950, $9,747,121.00.
(c)	To March 15, 1950: (i) health grants,
$224,766.44; (ii) others, $81,502.46; total, $306,268.90.	'


INCOME TAX APPEAL BOARD
Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	How many cases have been tried by the income tax appeal board month by month since it was set up, and to date?
2.	How many of these cases were heard in camera, and of these how many were at the request of (a) the appellant taxpayer; (b) the Minister of National Revenue?


Mr. McCann:: 1.	The number of appeals heard by the income tax appeal board, month by month, from the time the board commenced hearings on April 12, 1949, up to and including April 5, 1950, is as follows:
April	   2
May	 5
June	 3
July	 Nil
August	 Nil
September	 4
October	 10
November	 10
December	 5

	39
January	  5
February	 6
March	 13
April	 1

	25
Total	 64
2.	(a) 13; (b) none.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	How many Canadian national officials whose salaries were over $5,000 per year have upon retirement, in addition to the customary pension since the first day of January. 1949, received allowances or a lump sum or sums, or emoluments of any kind?
2.	Are such payments submitted to, or approved by, the Minister of Transport?


Lionel Chevrier: The Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	It is not the practice for the Canadian National Railways to grant retiring allowances to any officers in addition to pensions, as provided under the regulations of the C.N.R. pension fund. The only exceptions have been an allowance, authorized by the board of directors, to the chairman or president upon retirement.
2.	See answer to No. 1.


MOTOR VEHICLES
Mr. Brown (Essex West):: 1.	Is it necessary to have a permit to take an automobile into the United States on a casual visit?
2.	Have there been any changes recently made in any regulations to take a motor car on such a trip?' If so, what are the changes?
3.	What has been the effect on traffic crossing the border at Windsor, Ontario, due to any such changes in the regulations?
Questions


Mr. McCann:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The old form has been discarded and replaced with a new document which is serially numbered. Provision has been made for ultimate surrender and cancellation within six months instead of one year.
3.	The introduction of the new form has not affected either the volume or the celerity of traffic movements at Windsor.


FISHERIES
Mr, Isnor:: 1.	Does the Department of Fisheries carry out Investigations of bacteriological changes in the ocean and ocean bottom (other than spoilage of fish after landing) ?
2.	If so (a) where is such work done; (b) what is the name of the person in charge; (c) how many persons are employed in this work?
3.	Is the establishment of the department complete in the matter of bacteriologists? If not, does the department find difficulty in recruiting properly trained bacteriologists?
4.	Has the department promoted or supported any program leading to the recruiting and training of general bacteriologists? If so, where, and to what extent?
5.	Is it planned in the near future to expand training and research in marine bacteriology?


Mr. MacNaught:: 1.	If the wording "investigations of bacteriological changes in the ocean" means study of the bacteria of the sea and of the sea bottom completely unrelated to fish and marine products, the answer is no. The department does study microfauna in the whole environment of fish as it is applied to fish preservation.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No. The fisheries research board requires one general bacteriologist at the Ph.D. level. The fish inspection laboratory now being organized in Newfoundland may need one or two bacteriologists at the B.Sc. level. There is difficulty in recruiting bacteriologists with Ph.D. degrees, but not with B.Sc. degrees.
4.	The fisheries research board in conjunction with the graduate school of Dalhousie university has within recent years given bacteriological training to approximately eight students who received graduate degrees from the university.
5.	No.



HEALTH GRANTS


Mr. Eudes:: 1.	Since the health grants program came into effect how many new general hospitals in the province of Quebec have been given federal assistance under the hospital construction grant?
2.	What are the names and bed capacities of these hospitals, and how many people will they serve?


Mr. Martin:: 1.	17.
2.
Name of hospital Hotel Dieu de Montmagny
Hopital St. Sauveur	
Hotel Dieu Notre Dame
Beauce	
Hotel Dieu d'Amos	
Hopital Notre Dame de
Ste. Croix	
Hopital Notre Dame de
Lourdes	
Hotel Dieu de Sorel	
Hopital Ste. Marie	
Sherbrooke	
Harrington (Grenfell) .... Hotel Dieu de St. Joseph Hopital Notre Dame de la
Recouvrance	
Hopital de la Providence Hopital Notre Dame de
Charny	
Hopital Lafleche	
Pontiac Community	
Hopital du Saint-Redemp-teur	
Estimated
No. of	population
beds	served
112	105,500
78	No data
166	60,000
205	90,000
65	85,000
23	1,800
161	61,000
100	207,000
136	120,000
13	2,500
238	25,000
29	6,000
53	105,000
59	28,000
113	90,000
52	19,110
159	50,000
1,762	1,055,910



CENTRAL MORTGAGE AND HOUSING


Mr. Coldwell:: 1 Did Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation sell a property situated at 10820 Laval road, Ville St. Laurent, province of Quebec, during 1949?
2. if so, for what reason was the property disposed of?
3.	What was the sale price?
4.	To whom was it sold?
5.	Were there any other offers?
6.	If so, what were the amounts of such?
7.	What was the original cost of this property to
the crown?	...	...	_...
8.	How many families were living on this property
at the time of sale?	,	_
9 Did Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation give the tenants of this property any understanding that their leases would be honoured and the facilities maintained subsequent to the sale?
10. What increases in rent have these tenants had to nav since January 1, 1949?


Mr. Prudham:: 1.	Yes.
2.	The buildings were constructed to serve as staff houses for workers employed in war industries in that area. When the buildings were no longer required for war workers they were used as emergency shelter accommodation for three years, during which a substantial operating deficit was shown. When an acceptable offer to purchase was received, the buildings were sold

with the understanding that the tenants would be given the same security of tenure as enjoyed by tenants of other landlords.
3.	$64,725.00 (land and buildings).
4.	The Colonial Corporation.
5.	No other firm offer to purchase was received.
6.	Answered by No. 5.
7.	$179,496.49 (land and buildings).
8.	There were 63 families living on this property at the time of sale.
9.	The tenants were advised by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation of the assignment of their leases. It was pointed out to them that the new owner was subject in all respects to the provisions of the wartime rental regulations and that their occupancy was protected as to termination and rental by existing legislation. The deed of sale in favour of the Colonial Corporation included the following clause as one of the conditions to be fulfilled by the purchaser:
"To accept and take over all tenancies and lease agreements now in effect in respect to the above described premises and in so doing the purchaser does hereby acknowledge that the rentals now being charged or which may hereafter be charged must be approved by the wartime prices and trade board as such lease agreements will be subject to the wartime leasehold regulations upon this purchase being completed and the purchaser becoming the landlord in the place of His Majesty the King as represented by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation."
10.	During the period from January 1 to October 4, 1949, while Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation acted as landlord, no rental increases were made.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


TOURIST TRAFFIC


Mr. Murphy:: 1.	What is the estimated tourist revenue for Canada for the years 1948 and 1949?
2.	Of the amount spent for advertising, (a) how much was spent in Canada, and (b) how much was spent in the United States?
3.	What advertising firms were engaged during 1948 and 1949?
4 How was the amount spent by each during each year?
5.	What magazines or papers were used for advertising in both Canada and the United States?
6.	Have any film depots been opened in the United States? If so, how many, and how many showings were made, and in what cities?
7.	Are any employees engaged to spend full time or part time in the United States to promote the tourist industry?
8.	Is any arrangement made for the showing of Canadian films in United States theatres to promote the tourist industry? If so. in what cities were showings made, and how many?
Motions for Papers



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE


Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of all persons employed under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act in Saskatchewan, during the year 1949?
2.	What sum of money was paid to each person, as (a) salary or wages; (b) sustenance; (c) mileage; (d) other allowances, and what was the nature of the work performed by each?
3.	How many persons were employed (a) part time; (b) full time, in 1949?
4.	What was the total sum paid to all (a) parttime employees; (b) full-time employees?
5.	At what rate are (a) salaries or wages; (b) sustenance; (c) mileage; (d) other allowances, paid to common labour, foremen, all other employees, under this act?



HOUSING


Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	Has any government agency made any effort to find accommodation for families under notice of eviction from accommodation administered1 by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, either at the present time or previously?
2.	If so, what agencies have undertaken to do this, and what actual steps have been taken?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Knowles:: For a copy of all correspondence between the federal government, including any minister, department, branch or official thereof, and Steep Rock Iron Mines, Limited, relating to governmental assistance, either direct or indirect, financial or otherwise, to the said company, in connection with its exploratory operations, the draining of Steep Rock lake, the company's mining operations, and the transport of its iron ore, also a copy of all agreements entered into between the federal government and the company with respect to any matters, and also for a copy of all orders in council relating to any of the matters referred to herein, dated at any time since January 1, 1939.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copy of all correspondence between the federal government, including any minister, department, branch or official thereof and the Canadian National Railways, relating to assistance to the said railway in connection with any of its operations having to do with the handling, loading or transporting of iron ore produced at Steep Rock Iron Mines, also for a copy of all agreements entered into between the federal government and the Canadian National Railways, and a copy of all orders in council, relating to the matters referred to herein, dated at any time since January 1, 1939.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, there is objection to this motion as it is worded. It asks for the correspondence between the federal government, including any minister, department, branch or official thereof, and the Canadian National Railways, on the one hand, and, on the other, all agreements

Old Age Pensions
entered into between the federal government and the Canadian National Railways having to do with the subsidy to Steep Rock Iron Mines Limited. There can be no objection, of course, to the latter part of the motion, which may be allowed to pass so far as the agreement and orders in council are concerned. There is objection, however, to the first part, that is the correspondence between the Canadian National Railways and the department or departments, because that correspondence has always been considered privileged. There is no difference between that correspondence and departmental correspondence. If it is agreeable to my hon. friend the motion may pass subject to those reservations.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion subject to the reservations stated by the minister?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Goode:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the minister and Tim Buck of the communist party of Canada in regard to passport applications, and a copy of the application for passport granted to this individual to allow him to proceed to a certain convention in Hungary.


Mr. Pearson:: I would ask my hon. friend if he would be good enough to allow this motion to stand until I can have a word with him about it. The motion is ambiguous, I think, in its present form.


Mr. Speaker:: Motion stands.



OLD AGE PENSIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Notices of motions. Mr. Little:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration the advisability of introducing an amendment to the Old Age Pensions Act so that it would be on a contributory basis with no means test and paid to all persons reaching the age of sixty-five years.
Mr. Little:: This matter has been brought up already, and, the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) having taken steps to have a committee appointed to look into this matter, I have decided to withdraw the motion for the present.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member leave to withdraw the motion?
Motion withdrawn.



RAILWAYS


Mr. J. G. L. Langlois (Gaspe) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, early consideration should be given by the proper authorities as to the advisability of extending railway communications from Mont Joli, county of Rim-ouski, to the Gaspe peninsula via Matane, county of Matapedia-Matane, and Ste. Anne des Monts, county of Gaspe.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this resolution calls for the extension of railway communications from Matane to Ste. Anne des Monts only, since Mont Joli is already linked to Matane by a railway owned and operated by the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway. I deem it proper to leave it to the government and the proper officers of our railway transportation system to decide the means by which the existing railroad between Mont Joli and Matane may be linked to the proposed extension from Matane to Ste. Anne des Monts. I feel, indeed, that the solution of this problem should be left to the competent authorities in that regard.
The railroad linking Mont Joli and Matane is thirty-six miles long. It was built some thirty-eight years ago by a group of citizens of the district who did not have much money. When the work was completed the sponsors were unable to settle the outstanding accounts, and the line was relinquished to the contractors, who formed a new company called the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway. The cost of constructing this line, was some $300,000 or $400,000. The Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway overcapitalized itself at $600,000, and received subsidies from the Canadian government and the interested municipalities. Finally it was sold for $1 million to the Hammermill Paper Company, a United States firm whose head office is at Erie, Pennsylvania. The Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway also disposed of some 143,000 acres of timber land which it had received from the province of Quebec. It therefore received a gross amount of approximately $1,600,000, and netted from these sales a profit of more than $1 million.
Since this line belonged to strangers who had no interest in the region other than their own financial success, it never served the public with any degree of satisfaction. I do not intend to elaborate on the many grievances in this respect; I merely mention them at this time to lead the discussion into the various representations made in the past in favour of the resolution which I am submitting to the house today.

Although the previous representations were not in exactly the terms I have used in my resolution, Mr. Speaker, and in some cases did not suggest the same solution to our transportation problem, they were made for the same purpose I have in mind, that is, the economic development of the region, which has been refused the bare minimum of transportation facilities-and this even in this modern age, four centuries after the first white man set foot on the soil of Gaspe. Among the early arid prominent advocates for better transportation facilities in the Gaspe peninsula, I must mention the late Bishop of Gaspe, Monsignor F. X. Ross, who in 1923, at a gathering in the old church of Bonaventure, explained the needs of the region to the late Sir Henry Thornton. On this occasion the bishop concluded his remarks to Sir Henry by saying: "The fate of Gaspe is in your hands." The same short and appropriate sentence was repeated to Sir Henry's successor, Mr. Hunger-ford, in 1932 by Hon. L. A. Taschereau, then premier of Quebec, who wrote:	"The fate of
Gaspe is in your hands."
In 1927 the Canadian National authorities refused to recommend the purchase of the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway at a price equivalent to par on the outstanding bonds, namely, $1,400,000. This figure was then deemed too high. A further refusal at the price of $828,000 was recorded in 1937. In 1941, Mr. A. J. Lapointe, then member of parliament for the federal constituency of Matapedia-Matane, made a fresh attempt, but his efforts were of no avail. One of the arguments put forward by the Canadian National at that time was competition from highway traffic. This argument was particularly weak, since it applied to a region in which the roads are virtually closed to traffic on wheels for a period of approximately six months in the year.
In 1944 strong representations were made before the committee on reconstruction of the House of Commons. During the same year an economic survey of the Gaspe peninsula had been made, and a report was prepared which was later published in the leading Quebec newspapers, such as Le Soleil of Quebec, which had sponsored the survey; La Tribune of Sherbrooke, and Le Nouvel-liste of Three Rivers. Later this survey report, which makes excellent and informative reading, was published in a book, a perusal of which I strongly recommend to those who are interested in this problem. Both in this book and in the report to the committee on reconstruction, the purchase of the Mont Joli to Matane railway line from the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway by the Canadian
Extension of Railway to Gaspe National was recommended, and also the extension of this line along the coast to Ste. Anne des Monts, and thence via the interior of the peninsula to the magnificent port of Gaspe. This recommendation was supported by La Chambre de Commerce de Matane and the federal and provincial representatives of Gaspe, Bonaventure and Matapedia-Matane. As everyone can now see, it is part of this suggestion that I have unceasingly requested the government to implement since my election to this House of Commons in 1945, and it is part of the same suggestion which the members of La Chambre de Commerce de Gaspe-Nord were strongly supporting when they came to Ottawa last year.
On August 11, 1946, at its regional congress held at Ste. Anne des Monts, La Chambre de Commerce du Bas St.-Laurent passed a resolution strongly urging the Canadian government to implement this unanimously approved petition. I forwarded a copy of this resolution to the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier). At this stage of my remarks I believe it is in order to read a translated excerpt from a letter addressed to Hon. J. E. Michaud, then minister of transport, under date of June 20, 1944, by Hon. G. E. Dansereau, minister of public works in the Quebec government. It reads as follows:
Dear Mr. Michaud:
My colleague, Hon. M. Perrault Casgrain, sent me a copy of the brief which is to be presented to the committee on reconstruction of the House of Commons relative to the improvement of communication facilities in, the Gaspe peninsula. I take the liberty of forwarding herewith copy of this brief.
You will surely concur in my view that the existing railroad facilities are not proportionate to the needs of this region, and I fully approve the proposed solution to this problem, that is, the construction of a new railway line from Matane to Gaspe, or the purchase of the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway and the extension of this line to Gaspe via Ste. Anne des Monts. We must prepare for the post-war period, and, as my colleague the Hon. Mr. Casgrain stated, the development of the Gaspe region will not normally occur if appropriate commercial avenues are not placed at the disposal of its population.
Late in 1947 the Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway was sold to Canadian interests represented by the Hon. J. A. Brillant of Rimouski.
I wish to give now a brief description of the region concerned.
The distance between Ste. Anne des Monts and Matane is approximately fifty-seven miles by road. The topography does not present any obstruction to the construction of the extension of this line, the cost of which should be close to the average for such a line. Most of the population is located along the highway closely following the coast and linking Ste.

Extension of Railway to Gaspe Anne des Monts and Matane, but there are also important colonization settlements ranging from ten to fifteen miles inland, all linked to the main highway by crossroads. From Mont Louis to Matane the whole population of this region is interested in and strongly supports this proposed extension to Ste. Anne des Monts.
I wish to present a table giving in the first column the population of each locality and in the second column its distance from the present railway terminal of Matane:
	Population	Distance from Matane
Mont Louis 	... 1,250	miles 96Riviere a Claude 	... 525	86Marsoui 	... 500	79Ste. Marthe 	... 905	74St. Joachim de Tourelle 	.. . 1,500	62Sacre Coeur des Landes 	.. . 500	70Ste. Anne des Monts 	.. . 4,200	57St. Bernard des Lacs 	... 529	65Cap Chat 	... 3,240	46St. Octave de l'Avenir 	.. . 1,210	56Capucins 	... 497	37St. Paulin Dalibaire 	... 1,200	45Les Mechins 	... 1,300	30St. Thomas de Cherbourg ..	... 940	39Grosses Roches 	... 756	20Romieu 	... 470	31St. Adelme 	... 976	17Ste. Felicite 	... 1,704	12Total population 	. .. 22,202	
The inland colonization settlements to which I referred previously in this area are as follows: Sacre Coeur des Landes, St. Bernard des Lacs, St. Octave de 1'Avenir, St. Paulin Dalibaire, St. Thomas de Cherbourg, Romieu, and St. Adelme.
These figures, Mr. Speaker, do not include the population of the town of Matane and the municipality of Petite Matane. The statistics used also are not recent. If we take this fact into account, and add the natural increase in the population and the population of Matane and Petite Matane, the population should be in the vicinity of about 30,000 in the region which the extension line will serve immediately.
It must be remembered also that, to consider the whole problem, we must also take into account the population already served by the thirty-eight miles of railroad linking Mont Joli to Matane.
I now pass on briefly to the industries of the region. The lumbering industry and agriculture, with the exception of those localities situated east of Ste. Anne des Monts,
TMr. Langlois (Gaspe).]
where fishing takes second place to lumbering, are the two main sources of revenue in that region. The tourist trade is also quite flourishing, especially during the summer months, but further development of this important and valuable source of revenue is greatly impaired by the lack of proper transportation facilities, particularly during the winter season. Indeed, this region affords the greatest opportunity for winter sports, owing to its rugged mountainous coast and the breath-taking beauty of its landscape. These new possibilities of the Gaspe coast were discovered some years ago by the so-called "white caravan", composed of leading newspaper men of Canada, sports writers and sports experts, who had their first opportunity of seeing Gaspe under the snow.
It is not my intention today to give an elaborate review of our forest operations, since my wish is to be as brief as possible and to avoid repeating data already accurately given in the publications referred to in this expose of our problem. However, Mr. Speaker, I would ask to be allowed to take a few minutes of your precious time to give you some figures; for I deem it to be necessary in order to correct the wrong impression created by a recent report made to the authorities of the C.N.R. with regard to this proposed extension line. I refer to the report made in 1943 from which the Minister of Transport quoted in reply to one of my numerous speeches in the house on the subject, made on August 12, 1946. I did not mention this report in the historical part of my remarks today; I wanted to avoid duplication, since I was going to make a brief reference to it at this stage. This quotation from the report refers to the actual and future development of our lumber industry. I have here the shipping program for the 1947 navigation season for the shipping points of Cap Chat and Ste. Anne des Monts only. I find that the total shipments of lumber, including spoolwood, lath, shingles, pulpwood and so forth, amounted to 57,970 million feet board measure, or 28,985 standards. With the permission of the house, Mr. Speaker, I wish to table this shipping program.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon. member leave of the house to introduce this table?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Mr. Speaker:: Do I understand that the hon. member would like to have the table appear in Hansard ?


J. G. Léopold Langlois: Yes.


Mr. Speaker:: Has the hon member leave of the house to have the table appear in Hansard?
19,	1950
Extension of Railway to Gaspe


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


J. G. Léopold Langlois: The table is as follows:
Lumber, Spoolwood, Lath, Shingles, etc. from Cap Chat and Ste. Anne des Monts
[DOT]	million feet standards
James	Richardson	Co.	Limited,	lumber,	end	May-S2654	James	Richardson	Co.	Limited,	lumber,	end	May-Local	James	Richardson	Co.	Limited,	lumber,	end	June-S2654	James	Richardson	Co.	Limited,	lumber,	end	June-Local	James Richardson Co. Limited, spoolwood, end June-Local	Le Magasin General Limitee, lumber, end June-S2595	North Quebec Lumber Limited, lumber, end June-S2570	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end July Ec. 36	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end July-Local	James Richardson Co. Limited, spoolwood, end July-Local	Le Magasin General Limitee, lumber, end July-Local	North Quebec Lumber Limited, lumber, end July-S2570	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end Aug.-Ec. 36	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end Aug.-Local	James Richardson Co. Limited, spoolwood, end Aug.-Local	Le Magasin General Limitee, lumber, end Aug.-Ec. 37	North Quebec Lumber Limited, lumber, end Aug.-S2570	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end Sept.-Ec. 36	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end Sept.-Local	James Richardson Co. Limited, spoolwood, end Sept.-Local	Le Magasin General Limitee, lumber, end Sept.-Ec. 37	North Quebec Lumber Limited, lumber, end Sept.-Ec. 38	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end Oct.-Ec. 36	James Richardson Co. Limited, lumber, end Oct.-Local	James Richardson Co. Limited, spoolwood, end Oct.-Local	Le Magasin General Limitee, lumber, end Oct.-Local	
North Quebec Lumber Limited, lumber, end Oct.-Local and export
6,240
1,000
2.500
1,000
1,130
1,200
1.500 1,000 1,000 1,000
2.500 1,000 1,000
1,100
2.500 1,000 1,000
1,000
2,000
1,000
1.500 500
1.500
3,120
1.250
150
600
500
500
1.250 500 500 375 550
1.250 500 500 375 500
1,000
750
750
Total
37,470	18,735
Add:
Various shippers: Birch (squares), lath, shingles, etc.
Lumber, spoolwood, etc	
Pulpwood, 20,000 cords	
5,500	2,750
5,000	2,500
10,000	5,000
Grand total
57,970	28,985
If in 1947 those two shipping points only could produce that much, with a shipping season cut to five months and the United States and local markets practically closed to our products owing to the non-existence of railway communication, one can easily foresee an immense increase in the production once this extension is provided.
For those who are apprehensive of the possibility of maintaining the cut of our lumber industry at this high level, I beg leave to refer to a report received in 1948 from the provincial department of lands and forests in Quebec, by the district engineer's office of the department of public works at Rimouski. This report was quoted in P.C. 702 of February 24, 1948, authorizing contracts for the reconstruction and extension of the Ste. Anne des Monts wharf, and I quote from P.C. 702 as follows:
That, according to information received from the local office of the provincial department of lands and forests for Quebec, the watershed of the Ste. Anne river and its tributaries cover an area of
about 220 square miles, of which a minimum of 150 square miles is good timber land containing over 1,000,000,000 f.b.m. of merchantable softwood timber.
In recent years a good deal of prospecting work was carried out by various companies and individuals in search of oil and base metals. Important discoveries were made, and one base metal mine is in operation near Marsoui, where Candego Mines Limited operates a silver-lead-zinc mill with a daily capacity of approximately seventy-five tons.
Further mining developments of this kind are prevented owing to the reluctance of those concerned to invest capital in such an isolated region.
Before leaving this section on our industries, I strongly recommend to the officials of the Department of Transport and of the Canadian National Railways that they make use of the information in possession of the federal Department of Labour, which information was gathered last fall in the course

Extension of Railway to Gaspe of a survey of labour conditions in my constituency, made at my request by competent officers of that department.
I said a while ago that Ste. Anne des Monts was to be the proposed terminal for this railroad extension, and it is proper, before going into the general considerations that I wish to make before closing my remarks, to give some particulars of its strategic position, since it is to play a very important part in the future development of the Gaspe peninsula.
Located some fifty-seven miles east of Matane and some 146 miles west of Gaspe, Ste. Anne des Monts is the seat of the provincial constituency of Gaspe North. There is a courthouse and jail, a hospital, two convents for girls, and a college for boys. It is the terminal of the Matane-Ste. Anne des Monts mail contract, and the starting point for the Ste. Anne des Monts-Fox River mail contract, a distance of some 114 miles. Being approximately ten miles from Cap Chat and St. Octave de l'Avenir, four miles from St. Joachim, and within some seven miles of Sacre Coeur and St. Bernard des Lacs, there is a population of 10,519 within a radius of some ten miles.
The Perron boulevard, which passes through, links it to Matane and Gaspe. From Ste. Anne des Monts, and proceeding in a southeasterly direction, there is the road leading to the Gaspe national park. This road follows the Ste. Anne des Monts river, and there remain only some eleven miles of road to be built to connect it with the road following the Cascapedia river as far south as New Richmond, county of Bonaventure. Once completed this road will cross the whole Gaspe peninsula, and the distance between Ste. Anne des Monts and New Richmond will be approximately eighty-five miles, through a real paradise for game and fishing. There is also some sixty miles built on the road which will eventually connect this Ste. Anne des Monts-New Richmond road with Gaspe, thus rendering possible access to Gaspe through the interior of the peninsula.
Ste. Anne des Monts is being provided with a sheltered deep-sea commercial wharf, the construction of which, it is expected, will be completed this summer.
Ste. Anne des Monts is situated some forty-five miles by sea from Seven Islands on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, which will be linked by rail with the Ungava iron ore centres, for which Seven Islands will become the sole shipping point. This most advantageous position of our proposed railway terminal, namely Ste. Anne des Monts, cannot be overlooked by anyone 
studying its possibilities of future development. When one knows that a regular service by ship can easily be maintained twelve months a year between Seven Islands and Ste. Anne des Monts, one can easily foresee the great advantage it would be if Ste. Anne des Monts were linked by rail with the industrial centres of Canada and of the United States.
Seven Islands possesses no other means of communication with the rest of the world than the St. Lawrence river and its canal system, which are navigable only from the end of April to the end of November. This shipping point is therefore closed to the traffic by water for five months in every year. Even if Seven Islands or Ste. Anne des Monts were not considered quite safe for year-round water traffic-that I do not believe -it is commonly admitted, and rightly so, that the ordinary type of ship, without any special assistance from icebreakers or otherwise, could use these two ports until late in January and as early as the end of March. Thus the use of Ste. Anne des Monts as a point for forwarding the new Quebec iron ore would in this case increase the shipping season for this important metal by three months in every year. The same remarks apply of course to the ore coming out of Havre St. Pierre, where the Quebec Iron and Titanium Corporation are preparing for extensive mining operations, the output of which will be directed towards Sorel.
It might be argued that this suggested method of shipping the ore from Seven Islands and Havre St. Pierre via Ste. Anne des Monts would not be economical, but I strongly feel that it is the duty of our Canadian government to provide year-round shipping facilities for this most important metal in case of national or international emergency. Moreover, it must not be forgotten that Ste. Anne des Monts will in any event become the natural outlet for the manpower, products and materials needed for the new Quebec mining developments.
I wish to close my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by referring to my previous speeches made in this house on this subject, and more particularly to my speech of August 12, 1946. I refer to this latter speech because I then gave general aspects of the problem and referred to publications which cannot be overlooked by anyone desirous of giving serious consideration to my resolution.
Indeed, in my opinion it is not improper at this stage again to draw the attention of my colleagues to the inventory made in 1937 by the Department of Trade and Commerce of the province of Quebec, entitled "Inventaire des Ressources Naturelles, 1937, Gaspe" and

to another important publication published in 1940 by the American Association of Geologists, entitled: "Possible Future Oil Provinces of the United States and Canada." As I have stated on many previous occasions, this latter publication referred to the Gaspe peninsula as one of the richest regions of Canada, and perhaps of America, in petroleum fields.
It is not my wish to indulge in repetitions of my previous statements with regard to oil possibilities in Gaspe, but I wish to give a brief summary of a recent report on the Gaspe petroleum developments made by Mr. I. W. Jones, chief of the geological surveys branch, Quebec, dated February 23, 1950. This report mentions that four companies are now searching for oil in Gaspe: Gaspe Oil Ventures, Limited; Continental Petroleum, Limited; Peninsular Oil Corporation Limited, and Quebec Oil Developments. These companies have special exploration licences ranging from 8,496 acres to 74,180 acres. Three wells were being drilled in 1949, with the following results: Continental Gaspe No. 1, Galt township, depth 1,380 feet; Quebec Oil No. 1, Joncas township, depth 349 feet; Peninsula Deardorf No. 1, Holland township, depth 4,126 feet. Work was also done on two other wells as follows: Imperial Gaspe No. 1, Fletcher township, depth 6,360 feet; Venture No. 3, Galt township, depth 2,399 feet.
Small quantities of oil were found in Venture No. 3, depth 2,297 feet, up to one gallon per day, and in Continental Gaspe No. 1, depth 928 feet, one-quarter to three-quarter barrels, or 10 to 30 gallons per day. On Imperial Gaspe No. 1 stains of oil were seen on rock at about 2,600 feet.
In November and December, 1949, these three wells were acidized by introducing acid in the well, as is the current practice in oilbearing regions, especially where there is limestone. The acid acts on the lime and makes the rock more porous, thus facilitating the flow of oil.
Acidizing of Venture No. 3 and Continental Gaspe No. 1 increased the flow of oil to about one to four barrels per day. Gas is also coming out of Continental Gaspe No. 1.
Approximately half a million dollars have been spent in the search for petroleum in Gaspe during recent years, but this amount is not great in comparison to expenditures made in search for oil in other parts of Canada. One has only to bear in mind that Imperial Oil alone spent more than $25 million in Alberta before attaining major success, to realize that our search for oil in Gaspe has been done so far on a very minor scale.
19, 1950
Extension of Railway to Gaspe
The main difficulty in increasing this search for oil is the lack of transportation facilities. This is stressed in all the reports made by mining engineers connected with drilling or searching for oil in Gaspe peninsula. Also there is the normal and comprehensible reluctance of those interested in investing further capital in a region devoid of such facilities.
In addition to the silver-lead-zinc mine already in operation in the region to which I made reference previously, it is interesting to mention the results attained in the prospecting operations for copper.
The 1949 annual report of Noranda Mines Limited lends support to the view that their property in Gaspe is taking on real importance. Mr. H. L. Roscoe, general manager, confirmed current reports that the drilling done in 1949 is quite encouraging. Four bands of ore, overlying each other, have been located, with the lowest of these apparently running the best grade. Extensive drilling has been done, and the diamond drill program is continuing steadily.
Drilling before the war indicated 35 million tons of material at Noranda's Gaspe Copper Mines Limited, subsidiary, averaging 0-9 per cent copper. Drilling in 1948 added a further 6 million tons of 1-8 per cent copper grade. Results since then have continued encouraging. Deepening of old holes through 150 feet of barren material resulted in exploration getting into better grade.
The property of Gaspe Copper Mines Limited is located at Needle Mountain in Holland township. As it is not far from the St. Lawrence, construction of a railway to carry copper concentrates to deep-water wharves would not present any great problem.
Though as yet this has not been officially confirmed by either the company or the provincial government, Gaspe Copper Mines Limited have already obtained the permission to build a dam on the Magdalen river in order to supply electric power to their mining operations. There are even rumours that the contract for the building of this dam has already been awarded to a construction company. The tonnage drilled in 1949, some 7 million tons, has an average of better than two per cent copper, and the total tonnage drilled now amounts to over 48 millions tons.
I tabled a few minutes ago a report showing shipments of lumber made in 1947 from Cap Chat and Ste. Anne des Monts. The shipments from these two shipping points amounted to only 57,970 million board feet or 28,985 standards. The lumber industry is the most important one in our region, and our production could be increased if our producers could ship all year round to markets

Extension of Railway to Gaspe in Canada and in the United States. As it is, our shipments are confined to a period of five months only, and the American markets are practically closed to our producers owing to lack of railroad facilities. In this respect it is worth noting that since the American markets are restricted to dressed lumber, our producers cannot sell on this market, because dressed lumber cannot be shipped by water without deterioration in transit.
I therefore strongly urge that a complete and thorough survey of the proposed extension be made now, so that the construction may be started in the very near future. I repeat that there is a natural obstruction to the construction of this railroad line, and the cost of building it would be relatively low.
Upon the construction of this extension depends the assurance of a sound economy for this region of Canada which I have the honour to represent in the house.
In conclusion, through you, Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, to the government and to my colleagues in this House of Commons: "The fate of Gaspe is in your hands".
(Translation):


Mr. A. Phileas Cote (Matapedia-Matane):: Mr. Speaker, if I resort now to my native tongue it is, first of all, to ensure its continued use, and maybe also because in this parliament it is unusual to speak French and to be understood by the Prime Minister of Canada (Mr. St. Laurent), as is the case now, and also, I hope, by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew). It hardly seems possible that having spent twenty-five years of wedded life with his charming wife, who speaks and understands French so well, he would not have learned the beauties of the French language.
I have no wish to delay the progress of the debate on this motion which has already been discussed by the house. Still, I believe it to be my duty, as the member for Matapedia-Matane, to show this honourable house that the people of my constituency are broadminded. If there were to be any opposition to this measure it should normally come from the member for Matapedia-Matane and from the splendid inhabitants of the town of Matane which is the terminal point on that line.
I would also point out to the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) that we who live in Matane, which is located in the lower St. Lawrence region, are not opposed to his St. Lawrence seaway project, although some claim that to make the St. Lawrence navigable as far as Toronto would be detrimental to Quebec. I make it a point of telling him that we have no objection to the Matane railway
[Mr. Langlois (Gaspe) .1
going as far as Ste. Anne des Monts. The Matane board of trade and the Matane city council have already furnished evidence thereof. As their representative, I am anxious to reiterate their wishes.
However, if I may be permitted-I direct this request to my good friend and colleague from Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) and my good friend the Minister of Transport-to make a slight correction in the motion although I do not intend to move an amendment, I would say that before pushing the Matane railway as far as Ste. Anne des Monts, the Canadian National would be better advised to start by buying the Mont Joli-Matane railway, for the simple reason that this line has never given satisfactory service to date. It was the centre of a series of speculations which may have served private ends, but were never in the interest of the users.
For my part, after the election of 1945, I had to fight to get the company to reduce its freight rates. Thank goodness I succeeded, but only after many sacrifices and numerous attempts. The freight rates between Matane and Mont Joli were brought down to the level of the C.N.R. Since then, the company has been reorganized. It made a few improvements, but I am convinced, as are many others, that because of its set-up it is physically impossible for the management to give the people concerned with this 26-mile stretch the kind of service provided in other parts of the country.
If, after buying this part of the railroad from Mont Joli to Matane, the Canadian National should want to continue to operate this railway, we, the people of Matane, would surely have no objection to their doing so.
I wish to add something to the splendid speech made by my colleague.
(Text):
He has surveyed the situation thoroughly. I am not going to repeat anything that he has said, but if I am not mistaken he may have overlooked two small details which I believe are of paramount importance. One is that I do not see why there should be anything scandalous in an endeavour on the part of the government or the C.N.R. authorities to take over a stretch of line twenty-six miles long, and even extend it to Ste. Anne des Monts, with low revenue from freight rates and a small volume of business for a period of time, when the same thing was done at much greater expense for Churchill. I will not mention of course the great success that my colleague, the hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Gourd) had in having a line constructed there. I hope it will prove to be an asset. Even if the extension now proposed is not such a great

financial endeavour I would say that it should be done not only on a sentimental basis but also on the ground of national importance. I emphasize that because such a course cannot be followed by parliament, by the government or even by the C.N.R. unless the matter is proven to be of national importance.
I should like to emphasize that point because I think it was overlooked. It is of course of national importance. It is of national importance on the basis of sentimental loyalty to this part of our country. No one should forget for a moment-and I hope no one does -that the Gaspe peninsula is the cradle of this continent. I think it should be done if only as a gesture of recognition for those who have pioneered in that area for so long a period of time and nearly starved to death. I think recognition should be granted to them in this way because it is the proper time and way to do it. It is the most vital thing that can be done to bring about proper communication in order to assist in the development of that particular part of the province of Quebec and Dominion of Canada.
The second reason why it is of national importance is that we must build up Canada from one end to the other. That is becoming more apparent every day. It should be done to strengthen national unity and in order to give this part of the country a break and the opportunity to develop its natural resources. The natural resources of that particular area, as has been demonstrated by my colleague, are of such great importance that they should be drawn to the attention of the membership of the house, and hon. members should realize that they will do no harm to anyone but on the contrary will do good to everyone by helping to develop that part of our country.
I do not want to emphasize any of the angles that have been so brilliantly expounded by my colleague. I believe it is not necessary to say much more to establish that the development of this region is of national importance, that the development of a railroad there is of national importance, and the same thing should be done for Gaspe, with its more brilliant prospects, as was done for Churchill.


Mr. Graydon:: You will have to put the Conservative party in power to get that.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is impossible.


Mr. Cote (Malapedia-Malane):: This will not wait that long.


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I might add something to the two brilliant speeches that have just been delivered by the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) and the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane (Mr. Cote). At the
Extension of Railway to Gaspe outset I should like to commend the hon. member for Gaspe for his brilliant advocacy of this resolution. This is not the first time he has placed a resolution of this nature on the order paper, and neither is it the first time that he has discussed at some length the merits of an extension of the railway along the north shore of the Gaspe coast. I commend him for the great confidence he has in his constituency, that part of the province of Quebec which is so dear to him. I should like also to thank the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane (Mr. Cote) for his contribution to the debate in both English and French. The resolution now before the house reads:
That, In the opinion of this house, early consideration should be given by the proper authorities as to the advisability of extending railway communications from Mont Joli, county of Rimouski, to the Gaspe peninsula via Matane-
I pause there for a moment, because on reaching this point anyone reading the resolution would immediately feel that it should be accepted, for the simple reason that there is now an extension of a line from Mont Joli to Matane, namely the Canada and Gulf Terminal. So on the strict interpretation of the resolution thus far I believe the house would have to accept it. But then it goes on to say:
-county of Matapedia-Matane, and Ste. Anne des Monts, county of Gaspe.
I take it what the hon. member really had in mind was the construction of a line from the present terminal at Matane to Ste. Anne des Monts; and on that point I think I should bring to the attention of the house two matters which I believe are of great importance in reference to railway construction. The Canadian National Railways, with which I am particularly associated and for which as a rule I speak in this parliament, approach projects of this nature from the standpoint of certain particular aspects. That is, before entering upon a project of this nature the Canadian National would want to know, for instance, whether the natural resources were such that the line would be a paying proposition; or, again, whether the density of traffic would be such that the line, if constructed, would be profitable. They also would like to know the cost of the project since there are lines which because of the terrain cost tremendous amounts of money, while others cost much less. As a rule the Canadian National looks upon new construction in a businesslike way, and when it can it likes to obtain some sort of guarantee that the minimum volume of traffic to be expected would justify consideration of the project.
What I have said heretofore deals with the attitude taken by the Canadian National
1698	HOUSE OF
Extension of Railway to Gaspd Railways. Over and above that, however, there are other considerations which must be looked into. New railway construction, I think, can be placed in two categories. The first is construction which the Canadian National feels it should recommend on the basis that it will improve or round out the system, or that it will serve additional territory, or that it will act as a feeder to an established line, and also that it can be economically justified. The second category is the construction of what might be regarded as colonization or development lines, which the railway could neither construct nor operate without assurance that any losses would not have to be borne through its ordinary operations.
That, I think, is the general approach one must make to new railway construction. If I were to leave it at that, however, I would be challenged, as indirectly as I was challenged a moment ago by the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane, who asked, "Well, what about the case of my hon. friend from Chapleau (Mr. Gourd), who was able to have a line constructed from Barraute to Kiask Falls?" The position with respect to that line was entirely different, I believe. The situation with regard to the Barraute-Kiask Falls line was that the Canadian National Railways obtained in advance the assurance of a minimum volume of traffic which would render the line a paying proposition. As far as the Churchill railway is concerned,
I would say that came within the second category I mentioned a moment ago; and I should like to discuss that point in a moment as it relates to the extension to which my hon. friend has referred.
Dealing now with the new construction which my hon. friend would wish to have carried on from Matane to Ste. Anne des Monts, one must first look at the cost. The information I have is that the cost would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $8 million. That is a substantial amount of money to expend on new railway construction. I do not want to refer to the route that would be followed, because the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) dealt with that. He also dealt with the question of population and with the natural resources; ar.d unquestionably there are extensive natural resources in that part of Quebec, as well as a substantial population. Whether or not the density of traffic and the business that would be obtained through the construction of this line would be sufficient to ensure its economical operation is another matter. From the studies made by the Canadian National it would appear that such would not


be the case. It would seem that the construction of a railway in that area as an entity separate from the Canada Gulf and Terminal would result in a substantial operating deficit. Assuming that all the traffic passing over the Canada Gulf and Terminal interchanged with the Canadian National, if it were called upon to construct this new line, is new traffic, the deficit to which I referred a moment ago would be cut only in half.
The conclusion from the remarks I have made, of course, at first sight would be that from the standpoint of prospective earnings the line in question could not be operated at a profit, nor would it have sufficient feeder value to justify it on that basis. However, at the outset of my remarks I said there were two categories in which new constructions could be placed, those which from the point of view of the Canadian National might be expected to be profitable, and those which should be considered from another aspect. So the whole question of whether or not this railway should be constructed would depend upon whether it could be justified upon grounds other than those I have mentioned. It may very well be that the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Gaspe would warrant additional consideration to that already given. I am happy to be able to say to him that following his remarks and those of the hon. member for Matapedia-Matane I shall be glad to give consideration to these additional reasons which he has placed upon Hansard. It may very well be, and I think it is so, that the time is not now-by "now" I mean immediately-for the construction of a railway such as this. I think the day will come when it will be possible to give more careful and more immediate consideration to the construction of this line. When that day is here I can assure my hon. friend no one will be happier than I, should I occupy the seat and the position that I occupy now, to introduce in the house a bill which would give to the population of the Gaspe coast a line in accordance with their wishes, in accordance with the natural resources, the density of traffic and the population, and which would serve the needs of the people.
In conclusion I return to the resolution, and say that I do not think there can be much objection to its acceptance since the larger part of it at least is completed, that is the part which refers to the line extending from Mont Joli, county of Rimouski, to Matane. In so far as the other part is concerned, I have no hesitation in declaring to you, Mr. Speaker, that the extension referred to will receive proper and I hope adequate consideration.


Gordon Graydon: I said we would have to do the job.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I told you that you would never have the chance.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: If the hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) speaks, he will close the debate.
(Translation):


J. G. Léopold Langlois: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to add anything to the remarks I made at the beginning of this debate. I only wish to thank my hon. colleague from Matapedia-Matane (Mr. Cote) for the generous support he gave me when my resolution was introduced. My hon. colleague had already given me all the support I needed when this request was made. Indeed, last year, I was delighted when, with his usual eagerness, he agreed to join me in meeting C.N.R. authorities. On that same occasion, my hon. colleagues from Rimouski (Mr. Belzile) and Bonaventure (Mr. Arsenault) also gave me their valuable support.
I want to tell my colleague from Matane that he has my unconditional support in so far as the objections, restrictions and conditions he has made are concerned, and I want to point out that, from the beginning of my remarks, I have stated that I was willing to let the authorities concerned, that is, the federal government and the Canadian National Railways, decide how they could most profitably make the people of the Mont Joli to Matane area benefit from railways already at their disposal.
I should now like to answer the remarks made by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) who, a while ago, pointed out that that part of the railroad mentioned in this resolution has already been built. If my resolution mentions the building of a line between Mont Joli and Ste. Anne des Monts, it is precisely because the line joining Mont Joli to Matane belongs neither to the federal government nor to the Canadian National Railways.
That is why I am of the opinion that the government itself, and not a private company, must take over, not only the line between Mont Joli and Matane, but also the one which it is proposed to build to serve the district between Mont Joli and Ste. Anne des Monts.
I thank the minister for having extended his support to this resolution. I also wish to thank him for having assured my colleague from Matane and myself that our remarks will be carefully considered by his depart-
Soldier Settlers
mental officials and that he will give them his closest attention.
(Text):


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. Robert Fair (Battle River) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration the advisability of giving clear titles to all soldier settlers of great war I who hold land under contract with the soldier settlement board.
He said: In moving this resolution today, I express the hope that this is the last time it will be necessary for me or anyone else to deal with this question, and that the government will see to its immediate solution. This matter has been dealt with from time to time since 1937, and it is now a little more than thirty years since these settlers first took up their land. I feel it is long past the time when a disposition of this matter should have been finally made.
In this house a great deal has been said about the sanctity of contracts. It has been mentioned by cabinet ministers and others, and this afternoon I am basing my appeal on the sanctity of contract. I have before me a copy of an address delivered by the late Sir Robert Borden, then prime minister of Canada, to the Canadian expeditionary forces in 1917. He said:
You are men actually facing the enemy day and night. You are suffering greatly from fatigue, overstrain, and lack of rest. The marvel of it is that men could undergo such a strain without breaking; but you have never yet broken and history will appreciate that in days to come.
You men are about to enter one of the most serious engagements that ever faced the Canadian corps. I cannot, at this moment, give any information as to where this attack will be staged, whether it be successful or not, it is to be borne in mind that it will not be an easy success . . . We feel confident that you will succeed where others failed; for you have never yet failed in anything you have set your hand to, as a Canadian corps.
You can go into this action feeling assured of this, and as the head of the government, I give you this assurance; that you need have no fear that the government and the country will fail to show just appreciation of your service to the country and empire in what you are about to do and what you have already done.
The government and the country will consider it their first duty to see that a proper appreciation of your effort and of your courage is brought to the notice of the people at home, and it will always be our endeavour to so guide the attitude of public opinion, that the country will support the government to prove to the returned man its just and due appreciation of the inestimable value of the services rendered to the country and empire; and that no man, whether he goes back or whether he remains in Flanders, will have just cause to reproach the government for having broken with the men who won and the men who died.

Soldier Settlers
In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that is a definite promise on behalf of the government of that day. It is a promise that has not been kept, the fulfilment of which I hope the people of Canada will see is no longer delayed. The soldier settlement legislation was passed in 1919. As a result of that legislation, which some people thought was good and which was passed hurriedly by men who had no previous experience in the matter but were merely interested in getting the ex-soldiers out of the towns and cities, 25,017 veterans were given average loans of $4,358.40 each. These loans totalled $109,034,331.
For the information of those who have not heard this argument before, I might say that those soldier settlers were beaten before they ever started. Immediately after the war the price of land was high, as were the prices of grain and livestock. At that time-and I am not saying this from hearsay because I was in the country then-wheat was selling for as high as $3 a bushel; milch cows were selling for as high as $125 to $150 each; and horses for as high as $500 a team. Again let me state that in many cases the horses that were purchased by the soldier settlement board and sold to the settlers should have been used for crow bait rather than for the purposes of those veterans; the. same might be said of some of the cows and other stock that were purchased and also a good deal of the farm machinery was ready for the scrap-heap.
I have here a statement or "authority to sell chattel equipment". I might say that the livestock all belonged to the soldier settlement board, and the settler could not sell any of it without authority from that board. This is an authority granted to one George Connon, Junior, of Hazeldine, Alberta, a man in my constituency, who gave me this paper with permission to use it if I felt that I should do so. This is an authority granted to Mr. Connon to sell some livestock, and this is the appraisal placed upon the livestock by the officials of the soldier settlement board:
1 cow, 1,100 pounds	 $10
1 black cow, 10 years old, 1,000 pounds	 10
1 roan cow, 9 years old, 1,000 pounds	 7.50
1 red cow,	9 years old,	1,000 pounds	
101 cow,	tan	and white,	10 years old	
101 cow,	red,	8 years old,	1,000 pounds	
101 cow,	black and white,	8 years, Holstein_	101 cow, black, 8 years old	
101 roan bull, 3 years old	
102	yearlings, 1923 increase	
20Total	$107.50
That meant eleven head of cattle for
$107.50, less than the price of one animal four or five years prior to that time. I stated that these men were beaten before they ever started out, and I think that statement from 
one of the settlers or that official paper of the soldier settlement board will bear out the statement I have made.
Another thing I see wrong with the contract was that, while there was a definite stated price in the contract that the settler should1 pay to the soldier settlement board, there was no guarantee whatever of the price that the settler would receive for his grain or livestock as time went on; and we know from sad and expensive experience that shortly after war broke out prices broke also and as a result the soldier settlers and many of us out in the country at that time had quite a hard time to get enough to eat, without paying interest, taxes or any of the principal of our debts.
Another injustice in the act at the time was I believe section 57, which took away from the settler the oil rights that went with his holdings. I am glad to say that some of this has since been restored. Back in 1937 or 1938, I am not sure which, legislation was brought in which would restore those oil rights to the settlers who were entitled to them; and while the legislation went through this house without much discussion, when it went to the other chamber we find that it was conveniently sent to a committee, and in that committee certain members, led by Right Hon. Arthur Meighen, saw to it that those oil rights were not restored to the settlers. The result was that it was not until a couple of years ago, since the present Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Gregg) came into office, that these men have been able to get back that right. In that case I feel that the soldier settlement board might just as well have sold buildings off the farms as to have taken away the oil rights that went with the land.
Shortly after the settlers bought their land, as I stated before, prices dropped. We also had a series of poor crops out in that part of the country. As you know, the settlers were mainly located in Saskatchewan and Alberta. As soon as the prices dropped and the crops were short, we had a number of failures. Many of the settlers at that time who were wise enough, who could see far enough ahead -or perhaps through disgust-got off their farms and made a living in other occupations; but many of the others who were determined that they would some day own their land stayed with it', and are still staying with it. I shall deal later with the number who are still on the land.
From practical experience I know that some grades of oats sold for as low as three cents a bushel and in many cases where farmers hauled grain to the elevator and shipped it out in carload lots, after it got down to Fort

William they had to turn in either an additional car of grain or some cash in order to pay the freight. The farmers in general went through those conditions, and the soldier settlers of course were not in a condition to stand those things.


Mr. Blackmore:: Will my hon. friend permit a question?


Robert Fair: Yes, certainly.


John Horne Blackmore: Can he tell us whether or not those low prices were given in the depression or before the depression?


Robert Fair: In the depression, mainly. The government felt that a mistake had been made and certain debt reductions were made, including a cut of interest. But it will be readily understood that while prices like those existed, and they had existed for a good many years, the reduction did not keep pace with the losses sustained by those settlers. As a result, instead of getting out of debt, they were going deeper and deeper into debt and they had no way of helping themselves.
A little later on, the government passed legislation providing for a dollar for dollar bonus on arrears. This would have been fine if we had been getting either good crops or good prices; but, as I stated before, all during the depression years good crops and good prices were in a few instances only experienced out there, and the people were not able tp take advantage of the dollar for dollar bonus. It was only applicable on arrears and the people had a great deal of difficulty in finding the money with which to buy enough to eat, without paying taxes or interest or principal on their debt.
Hon. members will recall that by 1939-that is twenty years after this legislation was passed-we had the start of another boom, and that start was caused by the outbreak of another man-made war. Many of the old settlers who were in good enough physical *condition joined up again, and went and served their country for the second time. Those who were not in good enough physical condition to join up stayed home, worked long hours, and produced food and sent it overseas, besides supplying our own needs. At that time, I might say, they were not aware of the income tax collections that would be made a little later on in 1946, 1947, 1948 and so on covering the years when they had worked long hours and when they should tiave been taking life easy.
There is another injustice that many people will not believe. In those cases where a soldier settler enlisted and his wife and family stayed on the home farm, and there was no provision being made for the settler's wife to keep up the payments while he was away,
Soldier Settlers
the then director, Mr. Murchison, under the supervision or the lack of supervision of the then minister of mines and resources (Hon.
T.	A. Crerar), under whose department the legislation was administered, saw to it that a certain amount was deducted each month from the allowance that was made to the wife so that the debt of the settler might be taken care of while he again served his country. Many people will not believe that, but if there is any doubt about it let them look up order in council P.C. 138/1936, passed on March 19, 1941. I am just going to read the very meat of this.
It says:
Accordingly the board recommend that notwithstanding any provision to the contrary contained in any of the regulations providing for payment of dependents' or marriage allowances in respect of dependents of members of the Canadian armed forces, that in all cases where the dependents of an enlisted person continue to occupy the farm for which such person is indebted to the director of soldier settlement and in respect of which the contract terms are not otherwise satisfactorily provided for, there may be deducted from the dependents' or marriage allowances amounts sufficient to provide for payment of taxes levied by the local taxing authority in respect of the property in question and interest accruing annually on indebtedness to the director of soldier settlement, such deductions to be made monthly and in no case to exceed $20 per month except with the consent of the dependents concerned.
On many occasions we have pointed out to the government that the then director of soldier settlement was not a fit person to be in charge of operations, particularly when his minister, whose name I have already mentioned, and who is now in another ' section of this parliament enjoying security for the rest of his life, was not minding his business. After some time, and a whole lot of pressure, the government finally did remove this director, Mr. Murchison, and I think-in fact, I am sure-that many of the settlers were quite relieved as soon as that removal took place. I believe we now have a man as director who is a businessman, a man who looks after human values rather than dollar values, and I feel that he is making a success of his work.
Because of the inability of the settlers to secure clear titles there was a movement started back in 1937 in Lloydminster, to have those clear titles granted without any further payments, and the Soldier Settlers Association of Canada was formed a little later on at Saskatoon. That association has had several delegations down here, I believe on five different occasions, and they have done a lot of work in an effort to secure clear titles. We have had several discussions here in the house. Delegations appeared before the veterans affairs committee on two or three occasions. Let nobody think that

Soldier Settlers
this cause is not being supported by many people all across Canada. Perhaps a tew names will suffice to back up my argument. More than 12,000 signatures were secured on a petition for this purpose. A resolution was passed by the Alberta legislature and also by the Saskatchewan legislature; by the Alberta farmers union; by the Saskatchewan association of rural municipalities; the Saskatchewan wheat pool; the united farmers of Canada, Saskatchewan section; the united farmers of Alberta; the Alberta branch of the Canadian Legion; the executive of the British Columbia branch of the Canadian Legion and many others asking that clear titles be granted. We also had a recommendation by the dominion command of the Canadian Legion asking that certain reductions be granted. The hon. member for Acadia asked the question and the then president of the Canadian Legion said that he would not object to clear titles being granted.
The last presentation was made on the 17th of June, 1948. At that time, I am very glad to say, the veterans affairs committee, a committee that has done its work without any political wrangling, gave this delegation's brief favourable consideration, and when the report was presented to the house later on they had this to say under the heading "Soldier Settlement Act":
Your committee recommends that all indebtedness of soldier settlers under the provisions of the Soldier Settlement Act, 1918, be remitted, and that they be granted clear title to their holdings.
Right here I want to pay tribute to the then chairman of the committee, the hon. member who is now parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. He was very sympathetic, and when I brought this matter up first in the house some years ago he was one city member who supported the idea because he felt it was good business. It would cost much less to give them clear title than it would to continue collecting from and persecuting these people. In spite of the fact that the veterans affairs committee recommended that clear title be granted, the government has not up to the present time seen fit to grant clear titles.


Gordon Graydon: Why is that?


Mr. Low:: That is what we should like to know.


Gordon Graydon: So would I.


Robert Fair: Sanctity of contract again!
Sanctity of contract; that is the only reason that I know of. I remember going into the office of the then minister of finance, the Right Hon. Mr. Ilsley, with a delegation from the Soldier Settlers Association. The first

thing he fired at us, after the suggestion was made that clear titles be granted, was that these men had made a definite contract with the government, and it was the government's business to see that those contracts were fulfilled. I feel quite satisfied that that was not a sufficient argument. It is not a sufficient argument because the government saddled these men with contracts which it is impossible to fulfil. The men did their best on practically every occasion to fulfil their contracts; but because of policies laid down by the government and because of crop failures, and in many instances because of sickness also in the settlers' families, they were unable to carry on.
I must give the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the government credit for coming to the relief of the settlers to some extent. During the past two years they have placed certain amounts in the estimates for the purpose of relieving distress in those cases. They have begun to deal with the most needy cases. When the settler cannot pay his debt, and many of them are not in a position to do so, they give him a chance to square his debt by paying a nominal amount.
Certain reductions were made last year. In 1949, 911 altogether paid off their debts. They paid off $830,308.71. Of those we find that 692 got reductions of $269,311.95. The individual average would be $389.18. But in spite of these reductions, and in spite of that large number having paid off their debt, we find that on the 1st of January, 1950, there still were 1,634 of those settlers who owed $1,838,303.18, or an average of $1,125.
As I said before, the amount advanced to them more than thirty years ago was $4,358.40, and they still owe a little better than 25 per cent, or $1,125 at the present time. Somebody may come back and say 911 paid off their debts in 1949, and in less than two years the rest will be able to clear up theirs. That is not so. Do not forget that the average of the 1,634 who still are in debt to the board is $1,125. Knowing conditions as they are, I am quite satisfied that these men will not be able to pay off their debts.
Some claim that these farmers should have paid their debts. Having been on the land myself since 1914 I know the conditions under which farmers work. Some of those conditions, of course, were not the fault of the government; but many of them were. Some of the men who were unsuited for farming were placed on the land. Land, livestock and implements were purchased at high prices. In some cases the land was in drought or frost areas. Prices of agricultural products reached a very low point, and interest rates which had been originally five per cent on current

account were seven per cent on arrears. Let us compare that with the rate of interest to the veterans under the present Veterans Land Act, where they are being charged three and one-half per cent. Many of the settlers, who have written to me a good deal about the matter, say, "Let the government give us the same rate of interest they have given the veterans of the last great war. There is no reason why we should pay more. Then we would have money coming from the government, instead of having the government collect from us." That is one argument the government might use if it wished to clear up this trouble for the benefit of these old veterans.
Then let me turn to some of the reasons why these titles should be granted now, rather than having to wait any longer. I was going to say when I began to speak that before all the debts are cleared up this resolution will be eligible for the old age pension. Knowing many of the old settlers I feel that unless some action is taken many of them will not be there, in person, to receive their clear titles when they are granted-that is, if the government ever does make up its mind to do so. I believe the average age of those men at the present time is about sixty years, and some are considerably more than that, reaching the age of eighty.
The scheme was hastily improvised and was intended as a rehabilitation measure. However, for reasons I have already given it has turned out to be one of persecution. If those men were not able in thirty of the best years of their lives to pay off their debts, what hope is there of being able to do so in the near future? The prices of farm products are going down while the cost of living and farm operating costs are going up. I feel that again the cards are stacked against those old settlers. Many who paid off their debts in 1948 and 1949 did so at great sacrifice to themselves in order to take advantage of the government's offer of debt reduction. In having done so they have denied themselves and their wives and families many of the comforts which should belong to those veterans who went overseas to defend Canada.
The failure of old settlers to get titles will also have a detrimental effect upon those veterans who are now settling. While we have been assured that there is no depression in sight, we have also been given indirectly reason to believe that the same old cause for bringing on another boom is in the offing. It is not to me, and to many others, a pleasant way of bringing about prosperity.
I do not feel I should speak long on this matter. I have set out my arguments in detail on many occasions before, and what I
Soldier Settlers
have said has been supported from many sections of the house. Yet the government has not seen fit to grant these clear titles.
In conclusion let me repeat that it should never again be said of the Canadian government and members of the House of Commons -because, after all, we have our responsibilities-that:
We love our nation's heroes dead;
We very much adore them.
And since they haven't to be fed
We build grand tombstones o'er them.


Mr. P. E. Wright (Melfori):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to compliment the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair) upon having brought this matter to the attention of the house again. He has done this consistently for the last ten years, while I have been in the House of Commons.
As he has stated, at one time a few years ago we did think the government had made up its mind to make a final settlement with respect to these old settlers. However, it did not turn out that way. At the last moment apparently someone, in a position of higher authority than the government members who sat in the veterans affairs committee, was able to set aside the recommendation of that committee with respect to this matter of giving clear titles to soldier settlers.
I am particularly interested in the matter because in 1920 I settled under the Soldier Settlement Act, and bought land by virtue of it. I know the circumstances which obtained. I believe that in the particular area I represent there was a greater concentration of soldier settlers than was to be found in any other area of Canada.
During the last thirty years I have seen those settlers, one after the other, fall by the wayside; until today in the same area only about 20 per cent of the original settlers who settled under the Soldier Settlement Act are to be found. That is an area in which we have not had crop failures, and is considered to be one of the best crop areas in the Dominion of Canada.
Let me give some of the reasons for the failure of some of those settlers. When I have done so I think hon. members will agree that it has not been the fault of the settlers themselves. I would mention first a neighbour of mine who bought land in 1920 under the board. In 1919 the dominion government controlled school lands, but it had not yet taken over the school lands of the provinces in western Canada. Those school lands were turned over to the soldier settlement board for the settlement of returned soldiers.
The land to which I am referring in the school section had been offered for sale in 1918 at a regular auction sale held to dispose of

Soldier Settlers
school lands. This land was offered at an upset price of $10 an acre, but there were no bids on it. No one thought the land was worth that much, with the result that it was not sold. In 1919 it was turned over to the soldier settlement board for the use of soldiers. Did they offer that land to the soldier settlers at that price? No, they did not offer it to them, even on a bidding basis. The price of that section of land was set to the soldier settlers at $21 an acre, take it or leave it. Three-quarters of the section was bought by soldier settlers at that price when, the year before, it had been offered to the general public at the upset price of $10 an acre, and no one had seen fit to bid on it.
Under the circumstances how could soldier settlers be expected to be able to pay for that land when farmers in the area who knew the land had not been prepared to bid $10 an acre for it? As a matter of fact a quarter of the section was not sold. It came up for sale in the sale of school lands in 1927 and was sold for $15 an acre to the general public.
The government said to our returned men, "If you want land, here is the price you must pay for it." I have mentioned only one instance, but I know of others. I could tell about dozens of chaps in my particular area who had homesteads in the area at the time of their enlistment. They went overseas and upon their return wanted to extend their holdings to the extent of another quarter section. They bought those quarter sections through the soldier settlement board, and obtained additional loans for stock and equipment. But when they obtained those loans the board demanded that they be given a lien on the original homestead.
In many cases soldier settlers ended up by losing both the homesteads and the land they had bought through the soldier settlement board. Is that fair? Is that the way we should deal with our returned men? It is an old story. We remember the prices charged at that time for stock and equipment. When I went west in 1919 I worked for a farmer who had a large number of cattle. He was anxious to sell some of his milch cows to the soldier settlement board. I remember well his selling ten milch cows to the board on the basis of two calves he owned on that farm. The soldier would come in and say: Here is a nice fresh cow tor you and here is a calf. The inspector of The soldier settlement board would come along and pass that particular animal for purchase through the soldier settlement board although he must have known when he went back there ten different times that certainly the ten cows did not all have one calf.

That sort of thing went on with the result that many of our soldier settlers were loaded up with equipment, cattle and horses whose value was not represented by the amount which they had paid. We recognized that in the house later on when we reduced some of that indebtedness. Today the indebtedness of the soldier settlers has got down to the amounts given by the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair), a small hard core or residue of settlers who, in my opinion, still owe the board through no fault of their own. I am sure that ninety-five per cent of the settlers who are still in debt to the board today are indebted because of circumstances over which they had very little control. I know that is true of the men whom I know personally in my own area. Perhaps they have had large families; perhaps they or their families have had a lot of sickness. Perhaps the land which they obtained was not the best; perhaps it was land that was either of poor quality or in an area where it was subject to frost. Through circumstances over which they had no control they find after twenty-five or thirty years that they owe the board a considerable sum of money.
I think hon. members should at least give consideration to the resolution of the hon. member for Battle River and give these settlers clear titles to their lands. The government has recognized that something should be done. They have set aside a certain sum of money each year to deal with the more difficult cases, but I do not think it is a very businesslike way in which to handle the matter. For instance I have a letter from an old soldier settler in British Columbia. In it he states that one of the officials of the board visited him last year at the request of the settler that they review his case and discuss the matter of his indebtedness to the board. He states that he came to an agreement with that particular official for the payment of a stated sum of money-I believe it was $600- to take care of his remaining indebtedness. He thought that the matter was settled. This particular inspector apparently was not able to persuade the people in the head office that his recommendation for reduction was correct, with the result that the settler received notice that the offer would not be accepted. The impression was immediately created that somebody at head office, who had never visited the farm and knew nothing about the circumstances, was overriding the judgment of the man who was actually familiar with the case, and whose judgment should have been accepted.
I wrote to the board about the matter, and they indicated that, although their man might

have suggested this was an equitable settlement, nevertheless the final settlement was at the option of the board and could only be made on their recommendation. The letter I received from the director of the board reads in part:
I have reviewed the information on file and I sincerely regret that Mr.-
I will use the name "Smith".
-was given encouragement to expect a reduction in his debt; however, to do so at present would mean that we would be giving him preferred treatment as adjustments are handled on a priority basis.
What does that mean? It simply means that the settler is not in a serious enough position for his debt to be reconsidered. Is he likely to try to get into a better position if he knows that by being a little more careless, by paying a little less, in another year they will give consideration to a reduction of his debt? I do not think that method of dealing with these cases is satisfactory at all. I think that a much more satisfactory way would be to recognize the fact that the small core now remaining under the soldier settlement board are in the main-I would say in 98 per cent of the cases -in the position they are in because of circumstances over which they have had little or no control. I believe that the government should be prepared to recognize that, and to give them clear titles at this time.


Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Lake Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to take very much time because I do not want to talk out the resolution. I want to give it my support first of all on the ground of equity, and I concur in what the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) has said as to the general conditions under which settlement took place. Second, I support the resolution on the ground of economy. In 1946 it was made clear in the house that it would cost three times the amount of the indebtedness then owing to collect it. Surely in these days, when we talk of economy, to continue on the books an indebtedness of veterans who took up land in 1919 and 1920 under the soldier settlement board, if it is going to cost three times as much to collect it as the amount of the indebtedness, is entirely unreasonable. When one takes into consideration the equities of the situation, ordinary business sense, apart altogether from sentiment, prompts one to support the resolution
I should like to cite as a supporter of the resolution the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mutch). If he can use on the minister and the government the arguments that he advanced in the house in 1945 and 1946 this resolution will indeed receive the support of all members
Soldier Settlers
of the house. After all, argument is unnecessary on such a resolution when one can call as a witness the hon. gentleman who occupies the high position of parliamentary assistant to the minister. I should like to refer to page 2854 of Hansard for June 26, 1946. This is what the hon. member said at that time:
Mr. Speaker, I fancy that I am in a unique position in rising to speak on this resolution, not because of my attitude toward the resolution itself, but because of the fact that so far the discussion has had little or nothing to do with the subject matter of the resolution. I am one of those who in this house a year ago advocated the granting of clear title, for reasons which I gave at the time. I think it is uneconomic to send good money after bad. If we are not going to leave it to the house and the people of this country to read the proceedings of the committee,-
He was referring to the veterans affairs committee.
-I am entitled to say on my own behalf that when a member of the committee brought forward a resolution to grant clear title I supported it. I think that was the only recorded vote that has taken place in the veterans committee in the last two parliaments.
The resolution is a simple one. It reads:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration the advisability of giving clear titles to all soldier settlers of great war I who hold land under contract with the soldier settlement board.
Many Legion branches in the province of Saskatchewan have given support to the purport of this resolution. On more than one occasion my own branch in the city of Prince Albert has passed resolutions in favour of granting clear title to those veterans who today find themselves in this position by reason of what might be called the uneconomic purchase of land at a time when land prices were high, or who were settled in localities where through the years they suffered successive crop failures as a result of drought or, when they had reasonably good crops, found prices at such levels as made it uneconomic for them to continue. These men have struggled through the years. Surely this is not a case of discharging an indebtedness that ought not to be discharged. Parliament gave a lead in adopting the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, to permit the reduction of the indebtedness of many farmers.


Mr. Warren:: Who was prime minister then?


John George Diefenbaker: It does not matter who the prime minister was. It has been used under this government to an extent that it, was never used under the government which brought it in, the government of Right Hon. R. B. Bennett. It was a piece of legislation that helped many farmers in this country to continue on the land. I was not dealing with this matter from the political angle. I know

Soldier Settlers
my hon. friend wanted to give approval to Mr. Bennett and the benefits that flowed from that legislation when he asked the question; that is the only reason I considered it necessary to reply.
From the point of view of equity and fairness, Mr. Speaker, and if we want to look at it from the narrow angle, from the economic point of view, I believe we should take this action. I am sure the parliamentary assistant, having expressed the views he did in this house in 1945 and 1946, and having voted in the committee on veterans affairs for the discharge of this indebtedness, will join with the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair) and others in this house who support this resolution and with the branches of the Canadian Legion in western Canada who have asked for this action, in removing one of the greatest causes of unrest and ill feeling among the veterans of the first great war.
I want to add one further word. I believe the hon. member for Battle River is entitled to great credit for the persistence with which he has carried on his crusade on behalf of those unfortunate veterans who ask parliament for action this session.


Mr. L. A. Mutch (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, an eminent Conservative statesman in another country once said that the man who never changed his mind was in the same category as the man who never changed his shirt. Let me assure the house at once that any honours and responsibilities which have come to me as an individual since 1945 or 1946 have not altered my judgment as to the desirability of liquidating, as quickly as may be consistent both with the public interest and the interests of the veterans themselves, this question which has been hanging over their heads for many years, and which has been repeatedly brought before this house with such sympathetic fervour, persistence and argument by the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair).
I am not one who speaks generally and lightly on public questions; in fact I do not speak very often on anything. I appreciate the way the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) referred to my remarks as a private member of this house in reference to what I might almost call this perennial resolution. Had I been sitting where my hon. friends are I might have been more pointed and even less generous. I have had the high privilege-and latterly some responsibility-of serving on every veterans' committee, I believe, that has dealt with this and similar questions since coming to this house some fifteen years ago. I am, of course,

fully aware that on two occasions these committees have expressed sympathy and support for the measure of relief suggested in the resolution now before the house. However, with all due appreciation of the kind words of the last speaker, I have not yet reached the position, either as a former chairman of the committee or as parliamentary assistant, where I can direct policy. It will not come as a shock to my hon. friend, who knows me fairly well, but perhaps it may surprise some other hon. members that in more than one instance I have been unable, either through the committee or through my present position, to bring my views before the government as forcefully as he suggests I might be able to do.
However, Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to confirm what has been said by others this afternoon, that as a result of the discussions that have taken place on these resolutions, and as a result of the actions of the committees on veterans affairs, some steps have been taken. During the last two years, and the proposal is before us now for another year, there has been a steady and progressive liquidation of this problem, beginning where anyone who recognizes the problem must begin, which of course is where the need is greatest. I am a little resentful when some of those who plead the case of these settlers continue to offer as evidence in support of what I personally think is a good case the fact that the lands and the men selected for settlement under that scheme were not always chosen as well as they might have been. In fairness to the government in office when the scheme was conceived and to successive governments since, and indeed in fairness to Canadian taxpayers generally, when we discuss this question we should bear in mind that many millions of dollars have been written off these contracts from time to time in recognition of the fact that we in Canada did not know as much about land settlement in those days as we have learned during the somewhat bitter years that have intervened.
Making due allowance for that, however, the administration has realized that with the passing of time, the difficulties in the way of fulfilling these contracts have been too great for some, as they will continue to be too great for others. So we have had what I like to think of as an orderly liquidation of this problem in the last two years, which is being projected into the coming year. That is a recognition on the part of the administration, Mr. Speaker, and I think the member for Battle River is entitled to take whatever comfort he wishes to take out of the fact that some method has been found for the orderly liquidation of this problem. I will not either

retract or reiterate my own views on the subject, which were quoted a few moments ago from a speech I made. At that time I was looking at it as a business proposition. I should like to remind the house that as far back as 1945 or 1946 the view of the people in the country, as well as the members of this house, was that the economic future of agriculture in Canada was cloudy. This doubt arose out of our experience at the conclusion of world war I. I am happy to say that, as a result of arrangements which have been made in the last two years, the number of those who have not yet been able to get clear title to their farms has decreased sharply, and the number of those who have continued to make payments has shown a sharp increase. I believe this reflects the increased economic stability of agriculture, particularly in western Canada.
Had I known that this resolution would come up, and that the minister would not be able to be here, Mr. Speaker, I would have brought down the statistics concerning the improvement in the position. This improvement is due first and foremost to the effort of the soldier settlers, and secondly to the cooperation which has been possible as a result of the grants which this house has made at the instigation of the department, looking forward to the orderly liquidation of this problem. When I learned that this debate was taking place and came into the chamber, I did not have the opportunity of getting those statistics.
There is one thing which I think the mover of the resolution, and those who have, with myself, supported it during the years, would be willing to admit, and which merits consideration when we deal with the question, and that is that the present policy of the government is in fact doing what the member for Battle River suggests should be done. In my view the difference arises because the resolution proposes that this matter should be concluded at one fell swoop. On other occasions I have supported the hon. member in that stand, but that recommendation has not been accepted for reasons which have been given from time to time, and which have some validity. The other policy, that of the orderly liquidation of this problem, has been followed.
Soldier Settlers
cerned-who as a result of negotiation and extreme hardship have succeeded in concluding their contracts. To exact payments on contracts from those who can pay, while letting the others go free, would be unfair to those who had made sacrifices and would be a bad example to those whose contracts have some time to run. That is an argument which one has to meet.
I am not one, sir, who finds himself either comfortable or consistent or even sensible in arguing both sides of the same question. This is a matter which was referred to the government as late as 1948 by a committee of this house dealing with veterans matters, of which committee I had the responsibility of being chairman. In view of the fact that this debate was not expected, and it was not possible for the minister who heads the department to be here to present the views of the government, I desire to move the adjournment of this debate. This would enable a full answer to be given to the house from the one whose responsibility it is. I move the adjournment of the debate.


Major James William Coldwell: I do not think this debate should be adjourned. This matter has been before the house for the last fourteen years, so far as I can remember, and we have had a similar debate every year initiated by the member for Battle River (Mr. Fair). It seems to me that the house is surely in a position to make a decision on the matter. I am not going to talk longer because I think a decision should be made. I do not think the debate should be adjourned, and if an attempt is made to adjourn it I think we should call a vote.


Solon Earl Low: I feel the same way. I am opposed to the adjournment of the debate at this time. Surely if we are ever to finalize this problem, we could let the house settle it now. I do not think the hon. member is taking the wise course in asking for the adjournment, and I am opposed to it.


Gordon Graydon: Come to grips with the problem now.


Mr. Ross (Souris):: I was paired with the hon. member for Melville (Mr. Gardiner). Had I voted, I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. Cruickshank:: I was paired with the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Wylie). Had I voted, I would have been more careful than I was in my vote the other night.


Mr. Mitchell:: I was paired with the hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Homuth), If I had voted, I would have voted for the motion.


Mr. Sinnott:: I was paired. Had I voted, I would have voted for the motion.


Mr. Harris (Danforth):: I was paired with the hon. member for Waterloo North (Mr. Breithaupt). Had I voted, I would have voted against the motion.


Mr. White (Middlesex East):: I was paired with the hon. member for Middlesex West (Mr. McCubbin). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION


Mr. F. H. Larson (Kindersley) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into early consideration the advisability of increasing the expenditures under P.F.R.A. for the purpose of (a) the reclamation of agricultural lands wherever advisable; (b) removing families from unsuitable lands to suitable lands; (c) accelerating the construction already planned or under construction under present statutory authority, and to extend construction into areas not already affected.
He said: Mr. Speaker, this matter is not new to this house, and I am prepared to have the house consider the question without any further explanation unless the house desires it.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


Frederick Hugo Larson: The federal government by means of special votes has already gone a long way in alleviating the various problems with which agriculture is faced, and the only purpose in introducing this resolution at this time is to get the consensus of this house regarding the consideration of these reclamation projects as a national policy. The problem is national in its scope, as will be brought out in the argument.
There is no doubt that as the years go by Canadians in every part of Canada are developing a national rather than, should we

say, a sectional outlook. Many of our underlying prejudices have been broken down and I am sure that as time passes our bonds of unity will strengthen.
No matter how rich we become in the development of oil, uranium, iron and the various other metals, the main bulk of our people will still be engaged in farming, and agriculture will continue to be the industry to which most of our people will devote most of their efforts and from which they will derive their living. It is a well known fact that when agriculture is prosperous there is a vast market for the products of our mines and factories right in our own country. When agriculture is not prosperous goods stack up on the merchants' shelves. The people employed in factories and distributing agencies are laid off and there is great hardship throughout the nation.
Science and technology have been employed to increase the productivity of industry. These same facilities have been used to increase the living standard of our farmers. There are certain phases though that the individual farmer cannot carry on by himself. He knows that this must be done by a public body, such as the government.
As agricultural lands opened up in this country, there was lots of good land for everybody. However, as we are growing and developing we are running out of good land that is easy to put into production. There is, however, lots of good land that could be prepared; and if as a nation we desire to put this land into production to make homes for more farm families-and I think it is very necessary that we do this-we must be prepared to make further use of science and technology to prepare the many more acres which are available.
Our farmers have always had problems of a localized nature and the usual way to meet them has been through local municipalities and departments of agriculture in provincial governments.
The first problem which faced agriculture, which can in any way be termed a national emergency, was the threat in the early thirties that all of western Canada would become a desert of drifting soil. It was absolutely beyond the resources of the provincial governments involved to face this problem, and the federal government with its greater resources stepped in. The situation was faced and the problem was solved.
The policy that was established to overcome the situation had several most important and far-reaching results, in our thinking both as to the solution of such problems and as to the actual increase in prosperity of farmers. Wind
Prairie Farm Rehabilitation erosion was cut to a minimum by improved tillage methods and the seeding to grass of large areas of land which could be termed submarginal. The resulting areas of pasture land produced put our beef cattle industry on a stable basis. The people were shown that in years when it was too dry for cereal crops the farmers' living could be augmented by having beef cattle to sell.
The development of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and the gradual increase in the ability of the engineers belonging to this department to cope with land-use problems lead to the work which has been carried on jointly by the federal government and the British Columbia government in matters of flood control and irrigation in that province. The province of Quebec has been very keenly aware of land-use problems, and has for many years been carrying on a program which can take second place to none. The province of Ontario has done-a good deal of work, and the maritime reclamation is going to result in quite large areas of land flooded by sea water at high tide being reclaimed and made available for agricultural purposes. All these various policies have been concerned with those three most important factors in an agricultural economy -land, people and water. In western Canada-it is a matter of getting more water to the-soil. In eastern Canada it is a matter of soil drainage and flood control. In British Columbia it is a mixture of both these things. In Ontario there is a further problem of soil fertility, and I presume as western Canada becomes older she will eventually also face the problem of soil fertility.
It may be felt by many people that we are already producing enough agricultural commodities to supply any possible markets we might have. This is probably true, but the farm is the only unit in our economy where a man and his family can produce a good proportion of the commodities he uses. His living is tied very closely to his home, and for this reason there is no limit to the number of people that Canada could accommodate if agricultural policy were such that people could produce a living on smaller areas of land.
Saskatchewan and Alberta, because of climatic conditions, cannot accommodate many more people than they already have because the production per acre of cereal crops is so small that to make an adequate-living one family must occupy a tremendous-number of acres.
There is much of our western country that will probably still continue to produce-cereal grains mostly for export for many years to come because they are suitable for

Prairie Farm Rehabilitation that type of farming, and within the foreseeable future will not foe suitable for intensified mixed farming.
However, we are being shown by the irrigation projects already in operation in Alberta that as long as the water holds out in our major rivers there is no limit to the amount of land that can be put under irrigation, thereby bringing about that ideal farm unit where the mixed farmer can produce practically everything he needs.
It is the ambition of the Department of Agriculture to make further use of the South Saskatchewan river to make available half a million acres for small farm units, and by use of the Red Deer river in Alberta make available many more acres for small farm units. There are many other projects which could be carried on which would tend to do the same job for the people of Canada. The great advantage of this type of farming is that the farmer has pretty well an assured living, whereas with our great areas of wheat land the farmer may be a wealthy man one year and then a series of dry years can completely take his resources away and throw him on the-should we say-mercy of the government for his living within a short space of two or three years. These factors have impressed upon the Department of Agriculture, farmers themselves, people in business who realize the farmer must be kept at a high rate of income, and upon others, the necessity of implementing a national policy of using all the resources at our disposal to stabilize our vast agricultural industry.
I notice it is nearly six o'clock. I have many statistics here, but I would rather not use them until a later time when the debate is resumed.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Tomorrow we wish to proceed with four resolutions, the basis of bills we would like to have distributed. The order would be the following: First, the resolution concerning the amendment to the Canadian Wheat Board Act, 1935; second, the resolution to amend the National Research Council Act.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) will be in the house until six o'clock. During the evening he has official duties to perform, and cannot be here. We hope therefore that these resolutions may be passed before six o'clock so that the bills may be introduced. The reason is that next week it is the intention to proceed with the budget debate, and for ten or fifteen days we would not have a chance to proceed with these resolutions.
Then there are two other resolutions, one in the name of the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Gregg), No. 16 on today's order paper, and one in the name of the Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier), No. 23 on today's order paper. Then there are still four small bills, numbers 86, 87, 12 and 81 which will be proceeded with if we pass these resolutions.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, April 20, 1950