1950-05-10

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Fulton:: 1.	How many contracts or arrangements are now in existence, or have been entered into in the three years ending December 31, 1949, in each province, for the construction, purchase or lease of complete buildings, or space in buildings, for federal government purposes, including crown corporations?
2.	Of these contracts or arrangements, have any been entered into without first formally advertising or calling for tenders? If so, how many in each province?
3.	In the case of each contract or arrangement to construct included in the answer to question 2, what is (i) the date of the contract or arrangement;
(ii)	the location (city or town and street number);
(iii)	the name of the building; (iv) the department, departments, or crown company, etc., to be accommodated; (v) the name and address of the builder or contractor; (vi) the total or agreed cost of construction; (vii) the builder's or contractor's fee?
4.	In the case of each contract or arrangement to purchase included in the answer to question 2, what is (i) the date of the contract or arrangement; (ii) the location (city or town and street number); (iii) the name of the building; (iv) the department, departments or crown company, etc., to be accommodated; (v) the name and address of the owner or vendor; (vi) the agreed purchase price; (vii) the amount of any agent's or negotiator's fee, or any similar fee or consideration paid, or to be paid, for negotiating the contract; (viii) the name and address of the person to whom such fee was paid, or is to be paid?
5.	In the case of each contract or agreement to lease included in the answer to question 2, what is (i) the date of the contract or arrangement; (ii) the location (city or town and street number); (iii) the name of the building; (iv) the department, departments or crown company, etc., to be accommodated; (v) the name and address of the owner or lessor; (vi) the annual rental; (vii) the duration of the lease or agreement; (viii) the amount of any agent's or negotiator's fee, or any similar fee or consideration paid for negotiating the contract; (ix) the name and address of the person to whom such fee was paid, or is to be paid?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Mr. Speaker, when this question was put on the order paper a memorandum was sent to me by the chief architect of my department which reads as follows:
With reference to the above-mentioned question, may your attention be drawn to the fact that in order to completely and thoroughly furnish the answers will involve a considerable amount of work.
There are a great number of contracts, and thousands of leases, which would involve an enormous amount of work in the way of checking and compiling statistics. In view of the detail required there is no doubt that it would take well over three or four months to answer this question intelligently.
After I received this memorandum I discussed the question with the member for Kamloops two or three times. In the last conversation I suggested that perhaps I could ask the officials to redraft the question in a manner that would meet the wishes of the hon. member. They did draft a question, which I sent over to the hon. member, but I am not satisfied that it would give all the information he seeks. If he needs more information I suggest that he drop this question, have the new question put on the order paper, and then perhaps draft another question covering the rest of the information he requires.


Mr. Fulton:: Mr. Speaker, as the minister has said, we have discussed this question on several occasions. If it meets with the approval of the house I would accept the minister's suggestion to drop the question as it stands now and substitute for it the question as drafted, while reserving the right to redraft the portion of the question dropped which is not covered by the new question.
Question dropped.


FISHERIES RESEARCH
Mr. Smith (Queens-Shelburne):: 1.	Has the Department of Fisheries given consideration to research in respect of (a) development of powdered fish as a protein food concentrate; (b) marketing of same?
2.	Has such research been carried on?
3.	If so (a) at what places were investigations made; (b) under whose supervision; (c) will results be made available to the fishing industry in Nova Scotia and elsewhere?
4.	If not, when will this research problem be considered?


Mr. MacNaughl:: 1.	The Department of Fisheries has not recently considered research in respect of (a) development of powdered fish as a protein food concentrate, or (b) marketing of same.
2.	Yes.
3.	(a) and (b) Research was carried on during war years by fisheries research board of Canada at its fisheries experimental stations at Halifax and Vancouver, in conjunction with similar work by the then Newfoundland

Questions
government laboratory at St. John's, by the United States at Seattle and by the U. K. department of scientific and industrial research at Torry, Aberdeen, (c) Yes.
4.	In view of somewhat discouraging results of the wartime effort, further research is not contemplated in the immediate future.


ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY
Mr. Pearkes:: 1.	What is the average daily operating and maintenance cost of H.M.C.S. Magnificent (a) when at sea; (b) in harbour; (c) in reserve?
2.	What is the average daily operating and maintenance cost of H.M.C.S. Ontario (a) when at sea; (b) in harbour; (c) in reserve?
3.	What is the average daily operating and maintenance cost of a Canadian destroyer (a) when at sea; (b) in harbour; (c) in reserve?
4.	What is the average daily operating and maintenance cost of a Canadian frigate (a) when at sea;
(b)	in harbour; (c) in reserve?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	(a) At sea, $11,200; (b) in harbour, $7,000.
(c)	This ship has not been in reserve since taken over from Royal Navy, April, 1948. Estimated daily cost is $250.
The above does not include the two air carrier groups, operating from ship and shore, the daily cost of which is estimated at $4,250.
2.	(a) At sea, $10,300; (b) in harbour, $5,400. (c) This ship has not been in reserve, but the estimated daily cost is $230.
3.	(a) At sea, $4,077; (to) in harbour, $1,900; (c) in reserve, $133.
4.	(a) At sea, $1,509; (b) in harbour, $997; (c) in reserve, $83.


REQUESTS FOR TRANSFER TO CANADA OF SOLDIERS BURIED OVERSEAS
Mr. Gagnon:: 1.	Have requests been made to the government by certain Canadian families with a view to repatriating the bodies of the members of such families who died during world war II and were buried overseas?
2.	Were arrangements made for meeting such requests?
3.	If not, for what reasons?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No.
3.	The question of repatriation of war dead to their respective countries received most sympathetic consideration by the governments of the countries of the commonwealth during and at the conclusion of the great war, 1914-18. At that time, it was decided by all the commonwealth countries that all should remain together in the cemeteries
(Mr. MacNaught.]
which would be attended by the war graves commission acting in the interest of all. After the most serious consideration by all the governments concerned, the same policy has been continued in respect to the fallen of the second world war. While representations have been received from individual next of kin seeking to bring the remains of the fallen to this side, these have been relatively few in number and there can be no doubt but that the policy adopted has met with the support of the vast majority of relatives. Undoubtedly, one reason for this has been that it has been applied without a single known exception ever since 1914.


HAGERSVILLE, ONT., ARMY DEPOT  LIVING QUARTERS
Mr. Catherwood:: 1.	Have any steps been taken by the Department of National Defence to construct additional living quarters at the army depot at Hagersville, Ontario?
2.	If so, will separate quarters be built for married personnel?


Mr. Blanchette:: 1.	No married quarters are under construction or planned for Hagersville, but the need for married quarters at this and other defence establishments is under constant review, having regard to the relative needs and long-term plans for each such establishment.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


FEDERAL BUILDINGS IN ST. JOHN'S, NFLD.
Mr. Higgins:: What steps have been taken with respect to the erection of federal buildings in St. John's, Newfoundland?


Alphonse Fournier: An investigation is now under way to determine suitable sites for federal buildings.


NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Has any application been made by Newfoundland for the establishment of a national park?
2.	If so, what site has been suggested as being suitable?


Mr. Prudham:: X. There has been an exchange of correspondence, but no formal application has been made.
2.	The federal government has been invited to investigate certain areas with a view to determining their suitability. It is expected this investigation will take place in the near future.


AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS
Mr. While (Middlesex Easl):: 1.	Upon what American agricultural products are dumping duties applicable, naming each, individual product separately?
2.	In the past five years, on what products have dumping duties been applied?
3.	In what year or years were dumping duties applied to each of the above products, and for what length of time in each case has it been applied?


Mr. Winters:: 1.	Dumping duty as provided by section 6 of the Customs Tariff applies in respect to all agricultural products of a class or kind produced in Canada.
Questions
2.	Imposition of dumping duties as provided for under section 6 was suspended under the War Measures Act from 19th December, 1941, until March 31, 1947, except in respect to fresh fruits and vegetables.
3.	In the fiscal years 1947-48 and 1949-50, fixed values for duty were established under section 43 of the Customs Act, with dumping duty, in respect to the fresh fruits and vegetables and for the periods as shown in the statement attached. In the calendar year 1948, importations of fresh fruits and vegetables were subject to the regulations under the Emergency Exchange Conservation Act and no fixed values were established.
Fresh Fruit and Vegetables on which values for duty were fixed under Section 43 of the Customs Act during the
Fiscal Years 1947-48 and 1949-50
Product	Actual	1947	- 1948	Actual	1949	- 1950Period	Effective Dates	Period	Effective Dates	days	days	158	Ont. and Que.	July	26-Dec. 31	Cantaloupes and Muskmelons	j	56 52	Ont. and Que. Man. and West	July Aug.	29-Sept. 23 2-Sept. 23	Cherries	49	Ont. and Que.	24-Aug. 12	63	Man. and West	July	18-Sept. 19	Peaches	63	Ont. and Que. Maritimes	July	26-Sept. 27	49	Aug.	12-Sept. 30	Pears	
j	45	Man. and West	Aug.	1-Sept. 15	105	Ont. and Que.	Sept. 30-Jan. 1360	Ont. and Que.	Aug.	9-Oct. 8	105	Man. and West	Sept. 30-Jan. 13Plums	
|	70	Man. and West	July	18-Sept. 26	70	Ont. and Que.	July	26-Oct. 4	Prunes	
|	19	Man. and West	Aug.	14-Sept. 2	22	Ont. and Que.	Sept. 30-Oct. 2256	Ont. and Que.	Aug.	21-Oct. 16	22	Man. and West	Sept. 30-Oct. 22Strawberries	
j	42	Ont. and Que.	June	12-July 24	42	Man. and West	May	31-July 12	Beans	98	Ont. and Que.	July	4-Oct. 10	
Beets		34-76	Ont. and Que.	/June \Oct.	24-July 28\ 16-Dec. 31/	67	Ont. and Que.	Jan. 24-Apr. 1
							
	52-76	Ont. and Que.	[May	30-JuIv 211	90-67	Ont. and Que.	/May 20-Aug 181
				16-Dec. 31/ 13-Aug. 8			\Jan. 24-Apr. lj June 23-Dec. 22
56	Man. and West	June	182	Man. and West	49-76	Ont. and Que.	/June \Oct. June	24-Aug. 2\ 16-Dec. 31/ 26-Oct. 17	69-113	Ont. and Que.	/June 10-Aug. 181 \Nov. 24-Mar. 17/ June 23-Dec. 22113	Man. and West	182	Man.and West	Celery	
j	181	Man. and West	July	3-Dec. 31\	168	Ont. and Que.	Sept. 14-Mar. 195	Ont. and Que.	Sept. 27-Dec. 31/	128	Man. and West	Sept. 14-Jan. 2055	Maritimes	Nov. 29-Jan.. 23Cucumbers	
j	140	Ont. and Que.	May	15-Oct. 2	119	Man. and West	June	20-Oct. 17	Lettuce	
j	126	Ont. and Que.	May	27-Sept. 30\	f 104	Ont. and Que.	May 6-Aug. 18126	Man.and West	June	4-Oct. 8/	\ 126	Man. and West	May 18-Sept. 211 81	Maritimes	May 31-Aug. 20Onions, n.o.p	
j	180	Man. and West	July	4-Dec. 31 \	276	Ont. and Que.	June 29-Apr. 1176	Ont. and Que.	July	8-Dec. 31/	276	Man. and West	June 29-Apr. 145	Maritimes	Feb. 15-Apr. 1Peas	84	Ont. and Que.	June	24-Sept. 16	
Tomatoes						1 141 \ 122	Ont. and Que. Man. and West	June 17-Nov. 5 June 28-Oct. 28
							
The only commodity on which the value for duty was fixed under section 43 of the Customs Act in the fiscal year 1948-49 was onions, n.o.p. The value for duty was fixed on importations all across Canada for a period of 64 days from January 27 to April 1, 1949.

Questions


LABOUR CONDITIONS
Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Has the government any Information on the purpose and functions of the women's bureau of the United States Department of Labour?
2.	If so, is such information available (a) to members of parliament; (b) to the public?
3.	What are the titles of any documents in possession of the government dealing therewith?
4.	Has the government any information on equal-pay-for-equal-work legislation in the United States, or in any of the several states thereof?
5.	If so, is such information available (a) to members of parliament; (b) to the public?
6.	What are the titles of any documents in possession of the government dealing therewith?


Mr. Cole (Verdun-La Salle):: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) and (b) Yes. On application to the librarian, Department of Labour, Ottawa.
3.	United States Government Manual, 1949, pages 329-30.
"The Women's Bureau; its Purpose and Functions", leaflet issued by the bureau.
Weber, G. A., "The Women's Bureau; its History, Activities and Organization." Baltimore, the Johns Hopkins Press, 1923. 31 pages.
All publications of the women's bureau are currently received by the departmental library.
4.	Yes.
5.	(a) and (b) Yes. On application to the librarian, Department of Labour, Ottawa.
6.	"Equal Pay for Women." Women's Bureau of the United States.
"State Laws of Special Value to Women", January 1, 1950. Women's Bureau of the United States.
"Summary of State Labor Laws for Women", January 1, 1950. Women's Bureau of the United States.
"Annual Digest of State and Federal Labor Legislation" issued by the Division of Labor Standards, United States Department of Labor.
"State minimum wage laws and orders", published at irregular intervals by the women's bureau, United States Department of Labor. (Latest bulletin covers period July 1, 1942, to January 1, 1949).
United States federal and state bills and acts pertaining to labor; "Labor Relations Reporter", issued by the Bureau of National Affairs.
ILO legislative series.
New York State Department of Labor: Industrial bulletins (monthly); Weekly Legislative Digest.
Other publications.


DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR
Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Is there any branch or division of any department of the federal government corresponding to the women's bureau of the United States Department of Labor?
2.	Has consideration been given to the establishment of a women's bureau of the Department of Labour here in Canada?
3.	Have any representations been received by the government asking for the establishing of a women's bureau? If so, from whom, and under what dates?


Mr. Cote (Verdun-La Salle):: 1.	In Canada there is no federally-operated agency which is comparable to the women's bureau of the United States department of labor.
There is, however, a division of the national employment service which corresponds to a degree with the women's bureau of the United States department of labor. This division is headed at head office by an adviser on women's employment. A brief statement of her duties is as follows:
(a)	To deal with the special interest/', and problems of women in relation tc their interests in the employment field.
(b)	To develop and maintain liaison with women's national organizations which are interested in the employment of women.
(c)	To represent women and to advise on the woman's viewpoint in regard to the establishment of policies and procedures in the national employment service.
(d)	To functionally supervise all operations of the service dealing with women.
(e)	Administrative and consultive duties dealing with the general administration of the service and with special projects such as female displaced persons, domestic service, et cetera.
There are similar positions at regional level, and the commission's policy is to have female officers deal with women in so far as possible. Where the volume warrants it, women's supervisors are female; and where the supervision is over a joint male and female function, the supervisory position is open to either males or females on equal terms.
2.	The needs of the service are constantly under review.
3.	Yes. From the Young Women's Christian Association, in 1945; from the National Council of Women, in 1945 and in 1946.


TORBAY, NFLD., AIRPORT  LANDING EQUIPMENT
Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Have any steps been taken to instal instrument landing equipment at Torbay airport?
2.	II so, when is such installation to be made?


Mr. Marlin:: 1.	Yes.
2.	During the present year.


DORVAL, QUE., AIRPORT  EXTENSION OP RUNWAYS
Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Are the runways at Dorval airport to be extended and reinforced to accommodate Boeing aircraft?
2.	If so. when is construction to begin?


Mr. Marlin:: The runways are not being extended this year, but the possibility of designing and strengthening them for heavier aircraft loading is now under study by departmental engineers.


IMPORTS OF STARCH
Mr. Hatfield:: 1.	What quantity of potato starch was imported into Canada, and from what countries, during the year 1949?
2.	What was the value of same?
3.	What quantity of corn starch was imported into Canada during 1949, and what was the value of same?
4.	What other starches were imported into Canada during the year 1949?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1 and 2.
Country	Lbs.	ValueUnited Kingdom	
200 $	40Netherlands	
98,854	5,340United States	
1,065,120	67,596Totals	
1,164,174	$72,9763.	Corn starch is not separately classifiedin Canadian trade statistics. It is included in a classification which reads:	"Starch,
including corn starch, and all preparations having the quality of starch, n.o.p.". Imports under this classification during the calendar year 1949 amounted to 3,980,451 pounds valued at $254,011.
4.	"Sago starch or flour and cassava starch or flour, for edible purposes". Imports in 1949 amounted to 223,888 pounds valued at $19,371.
"Dextrine and combinations or preparations of starch and dextrine without admixture of foreign material, n.o.p.". Imports in 1949 amounted to 2,987,643 pounds valued at $253,868.
"Combinations or preparations of starch and dextrine with admixture of foreign material, n.o.p., which, when mixed with cold water, do not form an adhesive paste". Imports in 1949 amounted to 116,600 pounds valued at $12,440.
Questions


KIRKFIELD PARK, MAN., D.V.A. PROPERTY
Mr. Bryce:: 1.	Has the property at Kirkfield Park, Manitoba, on which certain buildings had been started by D.V.A., been sold?
2.	If so, to whom?
3.	Has transfer to the purchaser been effected?
4.	If not. what is reason for delay?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1.	Offer to purchase the land has been recommended for acceptance.
2.	Mr. Robert Mclnnes, 238 Arlington Street, Winnipeg.
3.	No.
4.	Awaiting signed agreement and balance of purchase price.


SALE OF THOROUGHBRED HORSES IN THE UNITED STATES
Mr. Ross (Hamilton East):: 1.	How many Canadians received American dollars
in the year 1949, and what was the total amount received for the purchase of (a) thoroughbred race horses:	(b) thoroughbred standard bred
horses; (c) thoroughbred hunters: (d) thoroughbred show horses?
2.	How many Canadians sold horses such as above and received American dollars, and what was the total amount received?


Mr. Sinclair:: The records of the foreign exchange control board are not maintained in such a manner as to make it possible to obtain the answer to this question.


PUBLIC SERVICE
Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	Was the advertisement appearing in the Ottawa Citizen during the past two weeks and reading, "Secretaries required by interesting organization, male or female. Experienced stenography necessary. Starting $125 to $180 depending on qualifications. Box 341 Citizen," inserted by any government department or board?
2.	H so, which?
3.	How many applicants replied to the advertisement?
4.	Were such applicants required to undergo a verbal or written examination by any officials of the said department as to qualifications?
5.	Did the civil service commission authorize such department to proceed in this manner rather than through the medium of the commission?


Mr. Prudham:: 1.	Yes; on April 17, 18 and 19.
2.	The national film board.
3.	Three.
4.	Each applicant will be interviewed by a personnel officer. If they appear suitable, each will then be given a qualifying test.
5.	No. Appointments at the national film board are made under authority of the National Film Act.

Questions


EXPORTS AND IMPORTS VIA NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Browne (Si. John's Wesi):: What Is the value of (a) imports; (b) exports, via Newfoundland ports, for the year ending March 31, 1950?


George James McIlraith: (a)	Imports, $22,493,607.
(b)	Exports (Canadian produce), $92,035,066; exports (foreign produce), $1,404,841.


PULPWOOD, VENEER AND LUMBER LOGS    EXPORTS TO UNITED STATES
Mr. Hodgson:: 1.	What was the value of pulpwood exported to the United States in the year ending March 31, 1950?
2.	What was the value of veneer or lumber logs exported to the United States in the year ending March 31, 1950?
3.	How do the above exportations of veneer or lumber logs and pulpwood compare with the years 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949?


George James McIlraith: External trade statistics are maintained on a calendar year basis. Exports of pulpwood and logs to the United States during the calendar years 1946 to 1949 were as follows:
Pulpwood Logs
Year	$	$1946	
28,731,150	1,508,6061947	
34,053,976	2,077,8901948	
42,237,021	3,611,2521949	
30,592,706	2,648,049


IMPORTS OF WOOD AND WOOD PRODUCTS
Mr. Hodgson:: 1.	What is the value of wood and wood products imported into Canada during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1950?
2.	How does this amount compare with the value of the imports of wood and wood products during the years 1946, 1947, 1948 and 1949?


George James McIlraith: External trade statistics are maintained on a calendar year basis. Imports of wood and wood products during the calendar years 1946 to 1949, were as follows:
Value
Year	$
1946	  20,052,363
1947	  34,586,001
1948	  25,249,352
1949	  30,180,225
IMMIGRATION, 1949 Mr. Hodgson:
1.	How many displaced persons were brought to Canada during the year 1949?
2.	How many other persons immigrated to Canada during the same year, and from what countries?
3.	How many from each country?


Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):: 1. 37,764.

2. Immigration to Canada, other than displaced persons, by country of last permanent residence, for the calendar year 1949:
Africa, British	 144
Africa, not British	 81
Asia	 1
Australia	 354
Austria	 216
Belgium	 837
Bermuda	 44
Bulgaria	 15
Central America	 23
China	 855
Czechoslovakia	 1,261
Denmark	   851
Eire	 927
England	   14,403
Estonia	 232
Finland	 168
France	 1,106
Germany	   117
Greece	 667
Holland	 6,812
Hong Kong	 179
Hungary	 190
Iceland	 7
India, British	 108
Ireland, Northern	 1,058
Italy	 7,654
Japan	 18
Yugoslavia	 43
Latvia	 68
Lesser British isles	 42
Lithuania	 42
Malta	 251
Mexico	 41
New Zealand	 232
Norway	  353
Palestine	 53
Poland	 2,384
Portugal	 16
Roumania	 84
Russia	 13
St. Pierre and Miquelon	 31
Scotland	 [DOT] [DOT]	4,925
South America	 472
Spain	 13
Sweden	 453
Switzerland	 394
Syria	 88
Turkey	 6
Ukraine	 2
United States	 7,756
Wales	  339
West Indies, British	  404
West Indies, not British	 57
Other European countries	 10
Other countries, British	 528
Other countries, not British	 25
Total	 57,453
3.	See answer to No. 2.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	How many copies of the following reports of the former combines investigations commissioner were printed, and how many have been distributed: dental supplies, optical goods, bread baking industry in western Canada, flour milling industry, flat glass, matches?
2.	Has the government taken any steps to ascertain whether the flour milling industry has continued or resumed the price fixing and other arrangements which the combines commissioner reported, or to prevent their continuance or recurrence?


Mr. Garson:: Return tabled.



ILE A LA CROSSE, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP- L. M. MARION

Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	Is the present temporary postmistress at lie a la Crosse, Saskatchewan, the wife of Mr. L. M. Marion?
2.	Did Mr. L. M. Marion construct a telegraph line between Dillon and Bull's House in Saskatchewan?



DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR


Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	How many copies of "2 Minutes of Employment Facts" are issued, and how often?
2.	What is the cost per issue (a) for printing; (b) for distribution?
3.	Is the distribution franked?
4.	What would be the cost of postage if not franked?
5.	What would be the saving in cost if issued quarterly?
6.	What would be the saving if printed in one colour only?


Mr. Cote (Verdun-La Salle):: Return tabled.



NAVAL SERVICE


Mr. Knight:: 1.	Did certain Canadian naval vessels spend some time in Hudson bay and the port of Churchill in 1949?
2.	Did their crews make a meteorological survey of those waters?
3.	If so, has the government used the findings of such survey as a basis upon which to urge upon insurers of shipping a reduction in marine insurance rates over the Hudson bay route?
4.	Were any representations to insurers of shipping made by 'any department of the government since the close of 1949 shipping season asking for a reduction in marine insurance rates on that sea route?
5.	Has the government given consideration to the setting up of a naval establishment of a permanent nature at Churchill?



NATIONAL COUNCIL ON PHYSICAL FITNESS

Mr. Knight:: 1. In what ways and to what extent has the national council on physical fitness carried out the duties outlined in section 4(1) of the National Physical Fitness Act?
Orders for Returns
2.	What activities are carried on by the provincial authorities who are responsible for the use of the grants made under the terms of the act?
3.	What proportion of their programs is conducted for pre-school children, school children, out-of-school youth, adults under 60 years of age, and adults 60 years of age and over?
4.	Have special programs and/or services been organized for industrial and agricultural workers?
5.	What contracts has the council entered into since the passing of the act, and what personal and real property has the council acquired as provided for under section 6 of the act?



OLEOMARGARINE

Mr. Kickham:: 1.	What duty, if any, is imposed on edible fats coming into Canada for use in the manufacture of margarine?
2.	What quantity of edible fats used in the manufacture of margarine has been imported into Canada during the last twelve months?
3.	Under what brand name are these edible fats used in the manufacture of margarine known?
4.	From what countries are edible fats used in the manufacture of margarine in Canada imported?
5.	From what source are edible fats used in the manufacture of margarine derived?
6.	Is the product known as margarine imported into Canada from any country?
7.	What quantity of margarine in pounds has been manufactured in Canada during the last twelve months?
8.	Is margarine exported from Canada to any country?
9.	What quantity of edible fats used in the manufacture of margarine has been produced in Canada during the last twelve months, and from what sources have they been derived?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Brooks:: For a copy of all correspondence, directives and instructions, from January 1, 1947, to date, in connection with the removal or change of post office and postmaster at Dorchester, New Brunswick.



GRAND RIVER, QUE., PUBLIC WORKS

Mr. Couriemanche:: For a return showing a copy of payrolls and lists of materials used in connection with the work performed on the Grand river (Grande riviere), county of Gaspe south, during the summer of 1949.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture) moved: that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939, to exclude certain areas of land from the operation of the act; to repeal the limitation that the shape of blocks of sections brought into payment in ineligible townships should be rectangular in shape; and to provide further for the exemption from payment of the one per centum tax previously collected from certain flour mills.
2358	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. Sinnott (Springfield):: Mr. Speaker, two hundred and fifty families have been evacuated from the city of Winnipeg to the town of Beausejour, Manitoba. I had to say those few words to indicate the importance of my question. Will the Minister of Public Works issue definite instructions that the gates which are used for navigation purposes at Lockport, Manitoba, be immediately lifted to alleviate flood conditions in Manitoba?


Alphonse Fournier: Just before entering the house I was told that a question would be asked concerning the opening of these gates. I have been informed that they are open to a certain extent, but that there is still some ice which prevents them from being opened completely, and there would be danger in trying to open them completely. As soon as they can be fully opened, instructions have been given that this be done.



JAPANESE PROPERTY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Angus Maclnnis (Vancouver East):: should like to ask a question of the Minister of Justice. Has the minister received the report of the royal commission that was appointed to inquire into the properties of persons of Japanese origin who were evacuated from the defence coast of British Columbia in 1942? If the report has been received, will it be tabled, or will the minister make a statement in regard to it?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The report to which my hon. friend refers came in in this morning's mail; at least it came to my desk this morning. I presume it was in the morning's mail, perhaps from the justice department in the Justice building.
I should like to have an opportunity of perusing it before I table it. It will be considered shortly.



NATIONAL HOUSING ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. Earl Cafherwood (Haldimand):: should like to direct a question to the Minister of Resources and Development. Has the government given consideration to the proclamation of that section of part IV of the National Housing Act, providing for loans for home improvements, which was passed in parliament in August, 1944? If consideration has been given, is the minister prepared to make a statement as to what action is contemplated by the government?


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Resources and Development):: I thank the hon. member for giving me notice of this question. A number of requests have been made for proclamation of this section and a number of recommendations have also been received to the contrary. The matter is being considered by the government.



PUBLIC LANDS GRANTS ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, May 9, consideration in committee of Bill No. 12, respecting grants of public lands-Mr. Winters-Mr. Dion in the chair.
Section 4 as amended agreed to.
On section 5-No title by prescription.
William Joseph Browne: I notice that this section reads:
No right, title or interest in or to public lands shall be acquired by any person by prescription.
Then the note on the other side of the page says:
Title by prescription has been abolished in many provinces under the provincial land titles acts.
It does not say that all the provinces have that condition. I am under the impression that in Newfoundland at least there is no such act. Is the minister in a position to say how many provinces have a provincial land titles act which applies? Because if it does not apply, the effect of this section will be to bring in a prescription act that will affect property rights in a province in which a provincial land titles act does not apply.


Robert Henry Winters: I am not familiar with the particular situation in Newfoundland. I will attempt to obtain the information. This regulation with respect to prescription states that, where people occupy land for a period

of sixty years, the land in effect became theirs. That is being abolished under this act.


William Joseph Browne: Is that not interfering with the jurisdiction of the provinces with respect to property rights? People who now have prescriptive rights on property will have their rights interfered with.


Robert Henry Winters: I do not see that it is, Mr. Chairman. This has to do only with lands held by His Majesty for Canada.


William Joseph Browne: Suppose a man acquires property after this date, which is passed over to him by the province, but the people have already had prescriptive rights earned against that property. Then this act will apply, and they will lose whatever rights they had gained.


Robert Henry Winters: No; I cannot see that that would in any way be interfering with provincial rights. If it were turned over to the crown by the province, it would be accepted by the crown as property turned over by the province as of the date on which it was transferred.


William Joseph Browne: Suppose, for instance, there is certain land in the province of Newfoundland at the present moment on which a person has been squatting for twenty years, and that land is then transferred to the Dominion of Canada. The Dominion of Canada, I suggest, would normally take that land subject to the right of twenty-five years; unless they take action about it, this will wipe out any rights they have earned.


Robert Henry Winters: The prescription in that case would run from the date of the original; and the example that my hon. friend quoted would run for another thirty-five years.


Mr. Knight:: We had opened up an interesting discussion last night. I think the minister was to carry on with the discussion I had started under section 4-but it is perhaps more applicable to section 6-in regard to a timber lease in Riding Mountain park in Manitoba. I think the minister said that he was going to look the matter up. The hon. member for Dauphin had begun to speak about the matter when he was overtaken by the clock. Has the minister had any information on the status of that lease, whether it is still in operation, or whether it has been totally done away with?


Robert Henry Winters: I think I intimated last night, although probably not clearly, that there are no such leases now existing in Riding Mountain park; that there are only about eight or nine such leases in Canada, and that they are
Public Lands Grants Act all in British Columbia. The problem therefore no longer exists in Riding Mountain park.


William Joseph Browne: I must come back to the section again, Mr. Chairman. I am not satisfied with the answer I received from the minister. 1 suggest to him that any rights which a person has will be completely wiped out by this section. The note he has there does not give us the information we should have as to how many provinces are governed by provincial land titles acts. Are all the provinces except Newfoundland governed by provincial land titles acts which are supposed to have wiped out a person's rights under prescription?


Robert Henry Winters: No; not all the provinces have provincial land titles acts. I think the eastern provinces generally do not have them, but the western provinces do.


William Joseph Browne: If they have not such acts, 1 suggest that the effect of this is to interfere with property rights in the provinces and that it is therefore unconstitutional. Has the minister had an opinion from the Minister of Justice on this section?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, we have; and the opinion is that we are not interfering with the legal rights of the provinces.


William Joseph Browne: What are you interfering with? You are interfering with something.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 6 agreed to.
On section 7-Defence lands.
Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: Mr. Chairman, I suggest that clause 7 quite clearly may take away certain rights. I also suggest one obvious mistake in the wording. I shall read the clause:
Such of the lands mentioned in the schedule to the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act as at the commencement of this act are vested in His Majesty in right of Canada, by whatever mode of conveyance they were acquired or taken, whether in fee, for life, for years or for otherwise,-
The word "for" is obviously wrong.
-and all appurtenances thereof, are and continue absolutely vested in His Majesty for the purposes of Canada.
I suggest that what this means is that a title which may now be conveyed for years, as indicated in the earlier part of the section, by reason of these unqualified words at the end, "are and continue absolutely vested in His Majesty," might very well be altered to extend the rights of the crown in a way that was never intended. I suggest there
2360	HOUSE OF
Public Lands Grants Act should be words added to the section to indicate that they are to be vested in His Majesty -some such words as these: for all of His Majesty's right, title and interest therein. Otherwise I suggest what you are doing is making what is now a partial title into an absolute title.


Robert Henry Winters: This section as drafted carries the judgment of course of the Department of Justice, and is, I believe, almost word for word a reproduction of section 2 of the old act, the act respecting ordnance and admiralty lands, which reads:
All the lands mentioned in the schedule to this act, by whatever mode of conveyance the same have been acquired or taken, whether in fee, for life, for years or otherwise, and all the appurtenances thereof, are and shall be and continue absolutely vested in His Majesty for the purposes of Canada.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not
interested in what other section there may be in another act. What I am interested iri finding out is what this section means. What I want the minister to tell me is whether there is any substance in what I have said.
I think there is. I have consulted with one lawyer of some eminence on these words. I want an answer, not merely a statement that it is in another section. So far as I can see on the face of it, it is wrong. I want an answer which has some reasoning attached to it.


Robert Henry Winters: As I understood the hon. member's question, it was whether or not this was correct and did what it purported to do. My answer is that in my understanding and to the best of the judgment of the Department of Justice, it does.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That again is a general assurance which carries very little value. I should like to see a definite opinion from the Department of Justice that indicates no such result as I suggest would ensue. If there is such an opinion, if this point has been considered, perhaps I can be answered, but I have not been answered yet. I may say, Mr. Chairman, there have been times, even in my short time in parliament, when governments were prepared to consider suggestions made from other quarters; but so far as I can see they are not even prepared to consider them now.


Mr. Sf. Laurent:: Mr. Chairman, I do not think that remark was called for. We have treated the hon. member with deference, the deference which he deserves, because I think he is always anxious to improve, if he can, the legislative language that is used in the statutes we propose. I do not think he listened carefully to what the minister said. The minister said that in the Ordnance and


Admiralty Lands Act there was a provision which declared that all the lands mentioned in the schedule, at whatever date they had been conveyed to the crown, were vested absolutely in the crown. That is a statute that has been in existence over the years. This has to do only with those lands, and purports to say that they will continue to be vested in the crown. That is, those that were declared by the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act to be and to continue to be vested in the crown are being declared by this section, which replaces it, to continue to be vested in the crown. It is not something having a new effect; it is something which continues the effect of chapter 115 of the revised statutes, which itself was a revision of a prior act.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to ask the Prime Minister this question. After all, no one questions the Prime Minister's standing in the legal profession. Does the Prime Minister think there is nothing' in the suggestion which I have made, that as this matter stands it might very easily convey a title which, though covered by the previous act, may still be a title for years, and can by these words be turned into an absolute title? Will the Prime Minister say whether, if there is no possibility of that, there would be the slightest objection to putting in the proper words to indicate that the title, which is to remain in the crown, is merely such title as they have had? That is my whole point, and I think the Prime Minister appreciates it.


Mr. St. Laurent:: If this were new legislation we might be concerned about the possibility of its being construed as changing the title; but if the title was changed it was changed years ago by the previous statute. This is merely a repetition of what was in the previous statute. It is not new legislation. It was so drafted by the Department of Justice, which does, I think, endeavour to avoid in its drafting doing anything to which attention is not directed. May I send over to the hon. member the provision in the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act? This applies only to the lands mentioned in the schedule to the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act. It is the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act which was in force before the last revision of the statutes in 1927, and which, when it was originally adopted, might have been open to the objection the hon. member suggests; but that is something that was done I do not know how many years ago. This section merely restates what has been the effect of the other act.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If the Prime Minister says, as I understand he does, Mr. MAY 10. 1950
Chairman, that this point which I raise may have been perfectly relevant and proper and practical at the time the previous statute was enacted, then I want to ask this question. Is it not possible there may still be instances of land held for a term of years, which under this continuation as we now have it, and which I assume does replace the present act, may be changed? Is there any reason, if we made a mistake a considerable number of years ago, why we should perpetuate it?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I am not conceding that there was any mistake made. This applies only to the lands that were described in the schedule to the previous act, and the previous act had the same language that is to be found here. If that is language which operates, it operated a great many years ago when the original statute was passed, and if it was something which could modify a title, the modification took place several years ago. There are no others than these with respect to which it did take place several years ago which can be affected by this new provision of the present bill. If the hon. member will just look at chapter 115 of the revised statutes he will find that, comparing the drafts of both, this does not and cannot do anything new.


Mr. Fleming:: Do I correctly understand that the Prime Minister is saying that regardless of the nature of the title, whether in fee, for life, for years or otherwise, which was vested.in the crown at the date of the coming into effect of the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act with respect to the lands in the schedule, the effect of that act was to vest in His Majesty in right of Canada an absolute title to these lands?


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: No; my reading of it was that it merely vested in His Majesty the title that had been conveyed to His Majesty. Perhaps there might be grounds for another interpretation of the language that was used in the original Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act. But if there was, that is past history. If it was something which could change a title, the change was made a very long time ago, and no change is being made at this time.


Donald Methuen Fleming: With respect, it seems to me we are left in this dilemma, that if the effect of the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act with respect to these lands was to vest absolute title in His Majesty in right of Canada, then these succeeding words in the present section 7 are quite unnecessary. All that would be needed would be a declaratory statement that the lands in effect continue to be absolutely vested in His Majesty. The other horn of the dilemma is this, that if
Public Lands Grants Act absolute title was not vested in His Majesty in right of Canada by the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act, then it would be only fair and proper that this section should not go any further, and that it should be followed by some such words as, "for all the right, title and interest of His Majesty therein and thereto."


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I do not think there can be any legal objection to adding as many words as you like to say that this does not give any greater title than existed in His Majesty at the date of the sanction of this act. If it is felt that such words should go in, it would not have any effect, in my view, but having no effect the additional words could not do any harm. If it will ease anyone's mind to have it stated that they are and continue absolutely vested in His Majesty for the purposes of Canada in the same manner and to the same extent as at the date of the passage of this act, then I can see no objection to putting in those words. I do not think that it is wise to add unnecessary words, but if hon. members feel they are desirable, there can be no objection to putting them in-because that is the purpose, merely to have these lands continue to be vested to the same extent that they are vested at the present time. Perhaps the words would be, "in the same manner and to the same extent as at the time of the coming into force of this act."


James MacKerras Macdonnell: If the Prime Minister will agree to that, I should be very glad to see those words introduced. I do suggest that the word "for" in the fifth line, before the word "otherwise", should not have crept in. Would the minister care to make that alteration?


Robert Henry Winters: I agree that the word "for" does not appear to be necessary in that section. If an1 amendment is required, perhaps the Prime Minister would be good enough to suggest it.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Well, I would not care to suggest an amendment, but if the hon. member for Greenwood wishes to suggest an amendment along the lines I have indicated, there could be no objection to its being inserted. However, I should not like to appear on the record as having thought it was necessary to put that language in.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I shall be very glad to move an amendment in the language used by the Prime Minister, which I shall have to get from Hansard.


Mr. Adamson:: Why not let the section stand until the hon. member for Greenwood prepares his amendment?

Public Lands Grants Act


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: I would be pleased to
move:
That the word "for" before the word "otherwise" in the fifth line of section 7 be deleted.
I believe that is just a misprint.


William Joseph Browne: Is there any reason why the schedule is not added to the bill to show precisely what lands are intended?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: This is a reference to a schedule which forms part of an existing act. I do not think we can go to the extent of saying, "When we refer to the schedule we mean the schedule which is appended to chapter 115 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, and which is in the following form." We cannot be expected to rewrite into the annual statutes these schedules which are readily available and which form part of the existing legislation.


William Joseph Browne: I have not heard anyone tell us what lands are mentioned in the schedule to which this bill would apply.


An hon. Member:: Read it.


William Joseph Browne: I have not seen it yet.


An hon. Member:: Get it.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Perhaps when the hon. member for Greenwood has finished with it he would be good enough to hand the copy of chapter 115 to the hon. member for St. John's West.
Amendment (Mr. St. Laurent) agreed to.


The Chairman:: Shall the section as amended carry?


Donald Methuen Fleming: The hon. member for Greenwood is preparing an amendment.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: This is my understanding of the language used by the Prime Minister. I move, seconded by the hon. member for Eglinton:
That section 7 be amended by adding thereto the following words:
"In the same manner and to the same extent as at the date of the coming into force of this act."


William Joseph Browne: My understanding of this section of the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act is that it refers to all the lands. Why do we not say "all the lands"? That would make it clear.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Because some of these lands have been alienated since. I should think parliament would not contemplate taking back lands from those to whom they have been granted since the original act was passed.
	.
Amendment (Mr. Macdonnell, Greenwood! agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 8-Defence lands not to be sold.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Subsection 1 states:
Public lands that are declared by the governor in council to be necessary for the defence of Canada shall not be sold, alienated or otherwise disposed of but may be leased or otherwise used as the governor in council thinks best for the advantage of Canada.
I should like to ask two questions of the minister which arise in connection with specific pieces of defence lands which I know have been considered for sale. I do not mind mentioning them; they are the Long Branch rifle range, which is just outside Toronto, and situated at the present time on an extremely valuable piece of building property in a built-up area. Representations have been made by the municipal authorities to the Department of National Defence for the release of these lands for building or industrial sites. I understand also that the small arms factory in that location, as well as the military camp used during the war, and which is now a housing project, are also situated on defence lands.
What is the procedure under this act for disposing of those defence lands? The subsection says they shall not be sold or alienated. What happens? Does the governor in council on the advice of the Minister for National Defence declare such lands as not required for the defence of Canada?


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Agar Rodney Adamson: And after that happens they come under and are sold pursuant to the machinery set up in section 4 (b) which was amended last night. Which minister sells them? What department finally sells those lands, if they are to be sold?


Robert Henry Winters: As my hon. friend will see by referring to section 4 (b), it will be the minister having the control, management and administration of the lands in question.


Agar Rodney Adamson: If the Department of
National Defence decided that these lands were not necessary, they would be declared not necessary under section 8, subsections 1 and 2, and the governor in council would then declare by order in council that they be not for the use of Canada and the Minister of National Defence would sell them. But no machinery is provided, no method is set out, as to how those lands shall be offered for sale, at least so far as I can see from reading the bill. It would be entirely up to the minister to decide how they would be offered for sale.


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: I know that in practice they go to the War Assets Corporation, because yesterday I had to deal with some lands that were declared to be surplus to requirements in the city of Quebec. They were turned over to War Assets Corporation which is arranging for their disposal.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Could the Prime Minister state how that was done? These lands are extremely valuable. Were they advertised, or how were they sold?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: For something approaching ninety-nine years these particular lands were under lease and the department has now declared them surplus to requirements. The War Assets Corporation is negotiating with the religious order which has had a school on these lands for the sale of the lands. In that case negotiations are being carried on to determine what is a fair price. I am not in a position to inform my hon. friend as to what are the usual proceedings.


Robert Henry Winters: A considerable amount of this land is held, toy the Department of Resources and Development and administered for the Department of National Defence or some other department. If the Department of National Defence decided that certain lands were no longer necessary to the defence of Canada, it would then toe the responsibility of the Department of Resources and Development to dispose of the lands as it saw fit. In such cases, unless there was occupancy of the lands in question, it would advertise through the press for sale to the highest bidder.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I think this particular
parcel of land is at least two or three hundred acres in extent, and it represents some of the most valuable property in the vicinity of Toronto. If the department does decide to dispose of it, great care should be exercised, because if things are not properly planned and developed, serious congested conditions may result. I strongly urge that if this or similar lands are to be advertised, the experts of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and of other authorities should co-operate. Care should be taken to see that restrictions are placed on the sale of the lands so that there may not be unplanned building on the property.


Robert Henry Winters: I can assure my hon. friend that the greatest care will be exercised.


Mr. Graydon:: I should like to say just a word in connection with the matter raised by the hon. member for York West. As the minister perhaps knows, negotiations have been on foot for some considerable time in connection with the lands referred to by the 55946-150
Public Lands Grants Act hon. member, and the question of the advisability of the Department of National Defence getting some other location for these rifle ranges has been raised in the House of Commons. I think the Department of National Defence has pretty well decided that when it can get a proper alternative location, it will move from the presently congested area.
, I only hope that that move will not be too long delayed. This piece of property has a considerable lakeshore frontage, and also fronts on the highway, but up to the present it has been a sort of blind spot in the development of the lakeshore area. The rifle ranges are no longer satisfactory to the military authorities because of the constantly increasing population of the area. I think the military authorities will agree that eventually some change will have to be made. All of us who come from that area are of the opinion that that change should not be held up any longer. Subject to the caution and the warnings which the hon. member for York West has sounded with respect to the method of disposal and the manner in which these lands shall find themselves under new ownership, the move should be made by the government as quickly as possible.
As the minister no doubt knows, in the metropolitan area of Toronto it is no longer a question of materials and labour; it is more a question of finding the right kind of land for building. I think this property is the right kind of land, and it will be sought after by builders generally as a preferred location. I hope there will be some expedition to this matter, because there is a great demand in that part of the country for the type of land which the Long Branch rifle range would provide. I should like to add my word to that of the hon. member for York West, who has so well placed the matter before the minister.


Robert Henry Winters: I am familiar with the deep concern of the hon. member for Peel in this problem. I have some knowledge of the difficulties in respect to the provision of new housing in Toronto, and I shall be glad to bring his representations to the attention of the Minister of National Defence.


Mr. McCusker:: The hon. member for Peel speaks most convincingly since he joined the rump.


Mr. Hunter:: According to subsection 1 of section 8, once lands are declared to be necessary for the defence of Canada I do not see how they could be disposed of other than by lease.


Robert Henry Winters: The wording of the section is that they shall not be sold, alienated or
2364	HOUSE OF
Public Lands Grants Act otherwise disposed of, but may be leased or otherwise used as the governor in council thinks best for the advantage of Canada.


John William Gordon Hunter: Possibly I am not making my point clear. I suggest that once the lands have been declared necessary for the defence of Canada, under the wording of that subsection it would certainly be arguable whether they could ever be disposed of. In other words you could not alienate them once they had been declared essential for the defence of Canada, even though later they might be declared no longer necessary for that purpose. I am not pressing the point, but I think it is fairly clear that there could be an argument on the matter, so why let it go through when the point could be so easily clarified?


Mr. Stewart (Yorkton):: Following what the hon. member has said, should you not add the words "subject to the provisions of section 4" which gives the governor in council power to declare a sale?


John William Gordon Hunter: Or add something like "provided, however, that upon being declared no longer necessary for the defence of Canada the property may be alienated," or something to that effect.


Robert Henry Winters: I think it is clear that if they were declared no longer necessary for the defence of Canada they would come under section 4, in which event the governor in council could make regulations with respect to their disposal.


John William Gordon Hunter: I am not going to press the point, but I think you are leaving room for argument.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 9 to 11 inclusive agreed to.
On section 12-Repeal.
William Joseph Browne: I see that by this section the Ordnance and Admiralty Lands Act is repealed. Would it not be advisable to have the schedule to that act attached to this measure, so that anyone desiring to look up the schedule would not have to go to an act that has been repealed? Since the Prime Minister has stated that some of the lands have been disposed of in the intervening years, I presume that schedule would be somewhat out of date; but I think it would be better to have the two things together. The government are revising the statutes again at the present time, so I should think this suggestion might be of some help to them.


Robert Henry Winters: The schedule to which my hon. friend refers is out of date now, of course, and is being changed constantly. I


believe the terms of this act get us away from the need for a schedule, and in my opinion we might be better off without a schedule attached to this act.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On the title.
Mr. Herridge:: I should like to bring something to the attention of the minister, and ask a question. Many years ago a gentleman came to my district from the old country, purchased some land and settled there. Later Jhe returned to England, and willed this parcel of land to the dominion government. That was a good many years ago, but I understand nothing has been done about it; I do not think the dominion government has even secured title. It is a small parcel of timbered land, but it could be used by present or incoming settlers. They are unable to purchase it, however, or get possession of it in any way. I should like to know why a small matter like this should have been delayed for so many years and not cleared up so that some Canadian citizen might make use of that land and timber.


Robert Henry Winters: I should think that would be a matter of probate. That problem would not come within the scope of this legislation.


[Stage Direction]
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Robert Henry Winters: the second reading of Bill No. 81, respecting crown lands in the Yukon Territory and the Northwest Territories.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Could we have an explanation, please?


Robert Henry Winters: The purpose of this bill is to revise the Dominion Lands Act and bring it up to date under the name of the Territorial Lands Act. In the process of this revision all outdated and unnecessary provisions have been dropped. The Dominion Lands Act, originally enacted in 1872, was designed to assist in the proper and orderly development of the west and to provide appropriate regulations in connection with homesteading, the use of patents, and related matters. After the transfer of natural resources to the prairie provinces in 1930, however, the application of the Dominion Lands Act was restricted to the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory.

The act as it stands does not suit conditions prevailing at the present time in the territories. It is considered desirable, therefore, to place in one measure all the powers of the Department of Resources and Development necessary for dealing with crown lands under its administration in the Northwest Territories and Yukon Territory except, of course, lands under the Indian Act and lands in the national parks.
Since no homestead entry was ever permitted in the Northwest Territories, and since the practice of allowing homestead entry in Yukon Territory was discontinued some years ago, the sections of the act dealing with homesteading are now obsolete. Other portions of this legislation ,which have also become obsolete relate to school lands and Hudson's Bay land, provisions which applied only to the provinces. Provisions relating to the holding of public competitions for the right to cut timber in berths were discontinued many years ago; the practice at present is to issue a permit and to charge dues for the timber cut.
The proposed new act will apply to all lands in the Northwest Territories and Yukon Territory under the control of the Department of Resources and Development, but will not in any way limit the operation of the Yukon Placer Mining Act, the Yukon Quartz Mining Act, the Dominion Water Power Act, or the National Parks Act. There is only part of one national park in the Northwest Territories, namely Wood Buffalo park.
In addition to repealing the Dominion Lands Act this bill also repeals the Irrigation Act and Reclamation Act. The Irrigation Act is now in force only in the district of Keewatin, where it has no practical application. The Reclamation Act applies only to vacant dominion land in the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan; since the transfer to these provinces of all vacant dominion land, it has no practical application.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Dion in the chair.
Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
On section 5-No sale of lands suitable for muskrat farming.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the
minister explain the reason for this provision?


Robert Henry Winters: For which part of section 5?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Subsection 1.


Robert Henry Winters: 
James MacKerras Macdonnell: There are two questions which arise in my mind. It is quite easy to determine what lands are suitable and what are not. Is that the general practice? Is it a well-considered policy that none of these lands should be sold, and that muskrat operations must be carried on on leased land?


Robert Henry Winters: That is regarded as the best practice, Mr. Chairman. I understand that certain provinces, the province of Manitoba in particular, have decided also that that is the best practice and have made provision accordingly.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I notice in looking ahead to section 8 that a discretion is reserved to the governor in council, but in this section there is an absolute prohibition which ties the hands of the authorities. There is no option, and I wondered if that was intended?


Robert Henry Winters: Large areas are involved, Mr. Chairman, and the land is usually swampy. It is felt that, having regard to the size and nature of the land, the question of sale is not an important one. The department has felt that, in the best interests of all concerned, it should make a provision against the sale of this land.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-Limitation on sale.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Again I want to ask why there is such a strong feeling against selling more than 160 acres. I see there is a power reserved to the governor in council, but nevertheless the [DOT] policy is evidently against the sale of the land.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: May I ask the minister if he proposes to encourage a certain amount of settlement in the Yukon Territory? The territory of Alaska is shortly to be admitted as the forty-ninth state of the union. It is many hundreds of miles further north than Whitehorse and these settled areas of the Yukon, but thousands of settlers are moving into the fertile valleys of Alaska and developing agriculture there. I think the Canadian government ought to encourage settlement in these valleys in which there is fertile land, and where it has been proven that people can grow food and establish homes. I disagree with this clause that the land must be surveyed first. In the province
23S6

Territorial Lands Act
of British Columbia it is possible for settlers to go ahead of the survey, and then make application to purchase or homestead the land. It should be possible to bring this legislation into line with the policy in British Columbia.
In so far as the defence of the country is concerned, it is in the interest of Canada to get as large a population as possible in northern British Columbia and the Yukon, especially in the territory contiguous to the Alaska highway.


Robert Henry Winters: In answer to both questions, Mr. Chairman, I should say that the former act said that parcels of land up to 640 acres could be disposed of without reference to the governor in council. That has been reduced to 160 acres, in order to ensure that a proper amount of land will be available for people who wish to develop the north country. I would say that it is definitely the policy of the government to encourage people to go into the north country and develop that vast and rich area.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 7-Leasing of mining rights.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Apparently the department is following the practice of the prairie provinces, in that the mineral rights are separate from the agricultural and surface rights. I should like to ask the minister why he decided upon -that policy? I should like to explain to him that if ore is discovered in that area and a mine is developed, the surface rights are almost completely subjected to the. mining operation. The mining operation really requires all the surface that it has. I want to know how the minister expects anyone to prospect in that area if the surface rights are separate from the mineral rights.
In so far as oil is concerned, it is quite a different thing. You dig a hole in the ground, but even so it upsets the surface rights to a considerable degree. In developing a mine you have the question of disposing of the refuse, you have houses and many other things which almost certainly preclude the use of the surface of the land for anything else but mining.


George Matheson Murray: In regard to oil I think the law ought to be made as generous as possible to encourage people to prospect for oil. I have been informed that at Norman Wells in the Northwest Territories there are approximately 31 million barrels of oil in reserve. There are 62 wells which have been capped, and one well is now being used to supply a small refinery. This oil field is merely a continuation of the field at Leduc, and simply because it happens to be just on +he other side of the Yukon border or the

Northwest Territories border is no reason why any reservations should be placed upon it. It should be made available to those who search for oil.
At the moment a pipe line is in existence in the Yukon Territory. We have heard a lot of chaff about pipe lines in this house, but the only pipe line of any consequence in this country is the one running from Skagway to Whitehorse and 500 miles north to Fairbanks, Alaska. It is not an allCanadian route because it begins in Skagway, continues into Canada, and then goes on to Fairbanks, Alaska. The oil resources of the Northwest Territories are likely to exceed those of the province of Alberta, and the world should be invited to come in to search for and develop this valuable resource. Again this looms large in the defence of our country. We are all familiar with the fact that this very field which I mentioned was drawn upon during the war to supply the American refinery at Whitehorse, and the United States navy in the Pacific, at a time when the Japanese were in the Aleutians. One refinery has been dismantled and sent to the Leduc field, but the oil wells are there and can be called upon at any time in the defence of this continent. I say that prospectors for oil, oil companies, pipe line companies and so on should be encouraged to pay attention to the Northwest Territories.


Robert Henry Winters: In reply to the first question, may I say it has been the practice of the government since 1889, when the first regulations were made, to have the mineral rights and surface rights separate. What my hon. friend said, of course, is true. On the other hand, considering the manner in which the north country is being developed now, it is the mineral rights that are really important, and the surface rights are secondary.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Actually, as to the McIntyre mine, one or two of the original claims were known as the Platt Yet claims, granted to veterans of the South African war.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8-Reservation of strip of land to crown.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Section 8 begins by saying:
Unless the grant contains a provision to the contrary, a strip of land one hundred feet in width-
And so on. If the provision of the reservation of one hundred feet is one considered to be highly desirable, as I imagine it is, then I raise this question. Who has the right to derogate from that provision? That seems to

be wide open. In another case we have, I think, a reference to the governor in council. Yes, in section 6:
Not more than one hundred and sixty acres of' territorial lands may be sold to any one person without the approval of the governor in council.
But here it seems to be wide open. Who can disregard the provisions of the section?


Robert Henry Winters: The section starts by saying, "unless the grant contains a provision to the contrary"; the grant would be authorized by order in council and may well contain a provision to the contrary. [DOT]


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would all those grants be authorized by order in council?


Robert Henry Winters: There will be some.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Perhaps 1 was under a misapprehension. May I explain to the minister that I was assuming that these were transactions carried on perhaps in a routine manner and perhaps by local officials. If I am wrong about that, maybe my question falls to the ground. But if I am not, does it mean that the local official has a right to put in a provision to the contrary? If so, may that not defeat the provision in ways that are not intended?


Robert Henry Winters: As my hon. friend has said, by reference to a previous section, if the area of land concerned is greater than a certain amount-and the reference he made was to one hundred and sixty acres-there must be a reference to the governor in council. If the area is smaller than that, it is a matter of regulation and in many instances can be done in a routine way. If there is to be some deviation, then it must be by regulation and must be referred to Ottawa for approval.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Am I right in thinking that one or two exceptions, let us say along a waterway of some importance, might be extremely serious to the whole result? I mean, if one or two people went right down to the water's edge, they might defeat the whole aim of this legislation, might they not? Again I question whether this section is not too wide open.


Robert Henry Winters: No, I do not think so. That would only happen with the approval of the appropriate authorities at Ottawa.


William Joseph Browne: I think by section 4 the minister will be given authority by the governor in council to sell these lands, because the grant refers to a sale only. I do not know what the practice is in other provinces, but perhaps the minister may know. It is not generally provided, even though you have not a navigable river- because with falls and so on it may not be
Territorial Lands Act
navigable-and is it not desirable that the crown should reserve the right to a strip of one hundred feet from the centre line of the river and so on? I am sure the minister is familiar with that provision. Do you think that is desirable?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, I think that is desirable. Moreover, there is a section later which again has reference to something of the nature of what my hon. friend has in mind.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I come back to this, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to be too persistent, but I .think there is. a real point here; and it seems to me that it could be easily remedied. The provision for approval by order in council applies only to sales in excess of one hundred and sixty acres. Then let us suppose that, just by inadvertence, some sales of less than one hundred and sixty acres are made without this reservation. Then, it seems to me, real difficulty might be caused. What would be the objection-because, as I understand the minister, it is in accordance with the practice which will probably be followed-to saying "unless the grant contains a provision to the contrary evidenced by order in council." That, it seems to me, would avoid any difficulty. I do not want to suggest something that is not practical, but it does seem to me that you are opening the door here in a way you may regret.


Robert Henry Winters: While I do not think it is necessary-of course, I can give the hon. member the assurance that there will be the greatest control over this-I would have no objection to adopting the words he suggests. If he would care to make an amendment to that effect, I should be happy to accept it.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then I will move, seconded by the hon. member for St. John's West, the following amendment. I am not sure that these words are the best, but for want of something better, I will say: "Unless the grant contains a provision to the contrary"-then I think there should be a bracket-"(which shall be evidenced by order in council)". That would seem to me to cover the matter. Shall I write it out?


Joseph-Alfred Dion: It would be better to have it in writing.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Very well; I will write it out. I will now bring it to you, Mr. Chairman, myself because I may have to interpret some of my writing to you.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood) moves an amendment to section 8 as follows:
That the words "evidenced by order in council" be inserted after the end of line one.

Territorial Lands Act
Shall the amendment carry?


Robert Henry Winters: I wonder if it would not be a little bit simpler as to wording and have the same effect if line one were deleted altogether and were replaced by the following words: "Unless otherwise ordered by the governor in council"?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I agree. That is much better.


Alphonse Fournier: I so move.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Mr. Fournier (Hull) moves that the first line of section 8 be deleted and the following substituted therefor: "Unless otherwise ordered by the governor in council". Shall the amendment carry?


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 9-Reservation of bed of body of water.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Section 9 reads as follows:
Unless the grant contains a provision to the contrary, the bed, below ordinary high water mark, of a body of water shall be deemed to be reserved to the crown out of every grant of territorial lands where the lands border a body of water.
_ Does the minister not think that wording is somewhat ambiguous? It does not describe the area of the body of water; and according to the section, as I read it, it could include a small body of water say within even a quarter of a section, which is not the usual practice in the granting of a title. Will the minister explain that section?


Robert Henry Winters: I think it is the practice, Mr. Chairman, with people who have a body of water, no matter how small.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: It is a most unusual procedure in the granting of title to land. Many farmers have 10 acres of land with a small pond upon it, possibly an acre in area, or they may have a quarter section with 20 acres or 5 acres of water on it. This is a most unusual section to apply, if it is to apply to all bodies of water regardless of size.


Robert Henry Winters: If the area of water is large enough to be shown on the township plan or the surveyor's plan then it is reserved under this section.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Will the minister say what size a body of water has to be to be shown on the township plan?


Robert Henry Winters: The size may vary, as my hon. friend knows; but there is a great deal of water on almost all land in the Northwest Territories, and it is intended to reserve to the crown the rights of that water.
[The Chairman.]


George Matheson Murray: Does the minister mean to say that that applies to placer mining lands? Must the owner stop at the edge of the stream?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Very important to use the water.


George Matheson Murray: Yes, or the water may come under some other legislation. The hon. member for the Yukon has just told me that in the Yukon Territory alone, since the discovery of gold there, they have produced $220,000,434 worth of gold. Up until the end of 1949, 9,941,000 ounces of gold have been taken out of the Yukon, and they are taking it out now at the rate of many millions of dollars a year. It should be interesting to this committee to know that if there ever was a field for young men to go to, to get rich, the Yukon still offers that great opportunity. I would not like to see any legislation pass which would limit mining operations in any way, or hamper men who go in to stake property in good faith, and who desire to carry on with the placer mining of gold.


Gordon Graydon: Can they make any money at present prices?


Robert Henry Winters: Under this act the governor in council may make regulations which give rights to use that water for placer mining operations. There is an act called the Yukon Placer Mining Act which contains similar provisions.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In accordance with the
practice established for the seat in which I have been sitting this afternoon, I want to rise on a point of order. We have been using the word "carried" too frequently. I want to ask the minister another question with respect to the small body of water. I am much interested in this point. According to this section the water belongs to the Dominion of Canada, and I presume the land under the water also. Therefore, the public, the people of Canada, have a right to go on that property. How are you going to provide legal access to a publicly owned body of water surrounded by privately owned land?


An hon. Member:: An airplane.


Robert Henry Winters: It would boil down to what is written in the grant. If the water is of sufficient size to be referred to in the grant as being exempted, then it would be exempted, and I have no doubt the proper words would be put into the grant to reserve, or grant the right of access to it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.

On section	10-Mines	and minerals
reserved.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to ask a question with regard to paragraph (b). It reads:
There shall be deemed to be reserved to the crown out of every grant of territorial lands
(b) all rights of fishery and fishing and occupation in connection therewith upon or around or adjacent to such lands.
Does that apply in the case of a small settler who buys a small amount of land which actually abuts on some fishing ground? To what extent is he limited from using his own lands? Is he committing a trespass if he fishes off his own land, or is it only to be permitted-


Robert Henry Winters: In some circumstances he might be committing a trespass, but in actual practice, he would certainly be permitted to fish the waters in question, if that would in no way interfere with the right of the crown to the fisheries in those waters.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Suppose the crown grants fishing rights in the whole body of water. That cuts him off entirely, does it?


Robert Henry Winters: I did not quite catch that.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The minister said that as a matter of practice-and I would think he is quite right-notwithstanding the wording of this section, they would put their blind eye to the telescope, so to speak, in respect of any man fishing from his own ground. Would that still be true if in fact rights of fishing in the whole body of water were granted to some third party?


George Matheson Murray: Are there not great commercial fisheries in both the Yukon and Northwest Territories? Naturally they have to be brought under some sort of control. I am told that the establishment of the fish trade on some of these great lakes is of very great importance and is part of the commerce of that country. For instance, from Teslin 'ake, Kluane lake, and Great Slave lake and on down in the Mackenzie valley they are shipping fish to Chicago and elsewhere by aircraft.


Robert Henry Winters: In reply to that question I would say that this applies only where there has been a grant of territorial land. There are of course large commercial fisheries in the north.	.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Territorial Lands Act
On section 11-Grant does not convey water rights.
William Joseph Browne: Does the minister not think that clause 11 is very poorly drafted? It says:
Unless the grant or other document establishing a grant, lease or other disposition of territorial lands expressly states the contrary, no grant, lease or other disposition of territorial lands shall convey . . .
Does the minister not think that this is unusually clumsy and could be improved?


Robert Henry Winters: As a matter of fact, it has already been reworded to improve it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 12 agreed to.
On section 13-Timber regulations.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Are these regulations common? Do they follow practices in other parts of the country pretty well, or is there anything special in regard to them to which our attention may be drawn?


Robert Henry Winters: To all intents and purposes, Mr. Chairman, they follow the common practice, and are a matter of provincial regulations where the provinces are concerned.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 14, 15 and 16 agreed to.
On section 17-Appeal.
Mr.   Baler@: Probably I am a little late in asking this question. Suppose someone should settle on some of this land with the intention of purchasing it after it is surveyed. Does he get a prior right to purchase? Does the squatter or settler get a prior right to purchase?


Robert Henry Winters: The governor in council has the right to make regulations with respect to the disposal of land. The chances are that if the man who was on the site in occupation is a desirable sort of person he will have a prior right to it, but there is no guarantee of that, of course. It depends on the circumstances.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 18-Powers of governor in council.
Robert Henry Winters: There is no reference in
section 18(f) to any authority for the laying of pipe lines through the area in question. Since I have heard it said in the house that it is highly desirable to make it possible tc

Territorial Lands Act
lay pipe lines through any area in Canada, I would suggest an alteration so that section 18(f) would read as follows:
Authorize the acquisition by any railway, power company or pipe line company, upon and subject to such terms and conditions as may be deemed proper, of a right-of-way for a road bed, for transmission lines or for pipe lines through territorial lands together with such othet territorial lands as may be deemed necessary for stations, station grounds, workshops, buildings, yards, pumps, tanks, reservoirs or other appurtenances in connection therewith.
I would ask my colleague the Minister of Veterans Affairs to move the amendment.


Mr. Gray  don:@: The Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Mr. Gregg:: I move:
That paragraph (f) of section 18 be deleted and the following substituted therefor:
"(f) Authorize the acquisition by any railway, power company or pipe line company, upon and subject to such terms and conditions as may be deemed proper, of a right-of-way for a road bed, for transmission lines or for pipe lines through territorial lands together with such other territorial lands as may be deemed necessary for stations, station grounds, workshops, buildings, yards, pumps, tanks, reservoirs or other appurtenances in connection therewith.


Gordon Graydon: Did the minister discuss this with Mr. Howe, before it was brought in?


George Matheson Murray: This is an excellent opportunity to decide whether it is to be an all-Canadian route, and to see how sincere certain hon. members in this committee are in connection with it.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: I think the hon. member is out of order.


George Matheson Murray: I do not think it is out of order.


Gordon Graydon: That means you sit down.


George Matheson Murray: In all seriousness-


Joseph-Alfred Dion: The hon. member may be serious, but I think this is not the proper time for that discussion.


George Matheson Murray: I think it should be asked.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall the amendment
carry?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: This paragraph refers to the authorization of acquisition. Is it necessary to have any reference to building? I suppose that is covered, is it? My thought is that the wording refers only to something in existence, and not to the building of it. How would the section read as amended?


Robert Henry Winters: There would be only a few changes. It would read:
Authorize the acquisition by any railway, power company or pipe line company, upon and subject to

such terms and conditions as may be deemed proper, of a right-of-way for a road bed, for transmission lines, or for pipe lines through territorial lands together with such other territorial lands as may be deemed necessary for stations, station grounds, workshops, buildings, yards, pumps, tanks, reservoirs or other appurtenances or works in connection therewith.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: That seems all right.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Sections 19 to 24 inclusive agreed to.
On section 25-Amendment to the Dominion Water Power Act.
Robert Henry Winters: Just to be consistent I should like to suggest a change in section 25 so as to make it agree with the definition of "public lands" in the bill we have just passed, respecting grants of public lands. I would ask my colleague to offer this amendment.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I move:
That for clause (a) of section 25 the following be substituted:
"(a) Paragraph (b) of section 2 of the said act is repealed and the following substituted therefor: 'Public lands'
(b) " 'Public lands' means lands belonging to His Majesty in right of Canada and includes lands of which the government of Canada has power to dispose."


Agar Rodney Adamson: I suppose this covers the water power development at Yellowknife, does it?


Robert Henry Winters: Another bill will be introduced later today to amend the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act to make the services of that commission available to the Yukon. That will be dealt with later today.


William Joseph Browne: Where is it
proposed to put that definition?


Robert Henry Winters: In section 25.


William Joseph Browne: Why not
have it in the definition section?


Robert Henry Winters: This constitutes an amendment to the Dominion Water Power Act.


William Joseph Browne: I see; this is an inset within the section?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Section 26 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
1947-48 TO YUKON TERRITORY
Robert Henry Winters: the second reading of Bill No. 90, to amend the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act.


Some hon. Members:: Explain.


George Prudham: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to extend the provision of the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act to the Yukon Territory. The Northwest Territories power commission was established by statute in 1948 to construct and operate power plants in the Northwest Territories.
The commission has since October, 1948, operated on a self-sustaining basis a hydroelectric power development on the Snare river 94 miles northwest of Yellowknife, and now supplies power to gold mines at Yellowknife and to the Yellowknife Power Company Limited for distribution in the town of Yellowknife. Power is supplied at a cost calculated to meet operation and maintenance costs and interest charges on capital investment, and to amortize the capital cost over a period of twenty years.
At the present time the commission is constructing and will have in operation during the present year a plant to provide dieselgenerated electric power at Fort Smith in the Northwest Territories, which will supply electric power on a financially self-sustaining basis to the town of Fort Smith and to the various federal government establishments located there. A similar plant will be constructed at Hay River in the Northwest Territories, and it is expected that it too will be in operation before the end of the present year.
From the earliest days of settlement in the Yukon, mining has been a vitally important industrial activity of the territory. It remains so today. As this industry grows, the need for electric power will increase. On the other hand, the availability of power would encourage and stimulate the mining industry. Both the extraction and processing of ore would be made easier and more economical.
The Northwest Territories power commission is functioning efficiently and it is considered inadvisable to establish another authority to supervise and administer any proposed development and distribution of electric power in the neighbouring territory.
The whole purpose of this bill, therefore, is to extend the application of the Northwest 55946-151
Northwest Territories
Territories Power Commission Act to Yukon Territory, and thus enable the commission, whose operations in the Northwest Territories have been of considerable value toward the development of the mining industry in that part of Canada, to render a similar service in the Yukon.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Dion in the chair.
On section 1-Powers.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: We have had a general statement from the parliamentary assistant, but can he tell us if there is some special project in mind which makes this bill especially necessary at the moment?


George Prudham: This is merely legislation to enable the power commission of the Northwest Territories to extend their operations to the Yukon. It is intended to cover all developments for the use of mining properties. During 1949 surveys and investigations were carried out by the government to determine the feasibility of hydroelectric power development on the Mayo river in the vicinity of one of the larger mines.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The parliamentary assistant stopped just when he was beginning to be interesting. Could he tell us a little more as to what use is to be made of these investigations?


George Matheson Murray: Has the minister received applications for power from any new industry, such as the aluminum industry?


George Prudham: No application has been received from the Aluminum Company. The United Keno Hill mines I believe are interested in obtaining power from any development that may take place.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Could the parliamentary assistant give us the cost per horsepower year or per kilowatt year for power from the Snare river plant for delivery to Yellowknife? Also the maximum horsepower available from the Snare river plant, and the extent of the present development? Also the method of contracting with the mines, whether the life-of-mine contract or the sliding-scale contract in force in Ontario is used.


George Prudham: The contracts with the mines are for twenty years. The cost is $100 per horsepower year which works out to about 1-53 cents per kilowatt hour.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I know the original intention was to have a development of 5,000 horsepower. Is that all being used and is it the intention to instal extra generators? What is the maximum possible development at Snare river?

Northwest Territories


George Prudham: The installed capacity of the Snare river plant is 8,350 horsepower and they are now using about 4,500 horsepower.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is the total estimated development at that site?


George Prudham: The total possible development on the Snare river is 27,600 horsepower.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Could we have the same information with regard to the Mayo river project that has been given to the hon. member for York West? I imagine that there are no security reasons which would justify holding back this information.


George Prudham: The location chosen for the power plant on the Mayo river has a possibility of developing 8,000 horsepower and the original installation would be for a capacity of 3,000 horsepower. The estimated cost of developing that 3,000 horsepower is about $3 million.


William Joseph Browne: Where is the diesel power plant referred to by the minister to be located and how far has that been developed?


George Prudham: There are two plants, one at Fort Smith and the other at Hay River. The first is well under construction and their completion is expected this. year.


William Joseph Browne: What is the capacity of the plant?


George Prudham: 350 horsepower each.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is the estimated cost?


George Prudham: At Fort Smith it will be $125,000 and at Hay River approximately $150,000.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I was rather interested in the figure of 1-53 cents per kilowatt at Yellowknife because I rather think that is cheaper than the power being supplied in the United Kingdom by the socialized coal industry. It is rather interesting that power can be supplied so cheaply in these extremely out of the way places.


George Prudham: The present cost of diesel power in the Yukon is approximately 6-8 cents per kilowatt hour and it is estimated that the new hydro project, if and when installed, will provide power at 2 cents per kilowatt.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Do I understand that the full anticipated production at the Mayo river plant is only 8,000 horsepower as compared with 27,000 horsepower in the other case?


George Prudham: That is the proposed Mayo river canyon development. No doubt there are other sites, but that is the one that has been surveyed.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: How far has
the project gone? Is there anything definite beyond the government having made surveys? Is it proposed to construct it as a public work, or are there private individuals who are ready to undertake it?


George Prudham: The present proposal is that it will be carried on as a public works enterprise; in other words, by the government. There has been no decision yet as to whether it will be undertaken by the government.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am not
criticizing that; I am just interested in the considerations involved. For instance, I am not familiar with the Snare river plant. How was that done?


George Prudham: The Snare river plant is a government operated enterprise under the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act, and we are now asking for power, under the proposed amendment, to do likewise in the Yukon Territory.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Commission to investigate supply of power in Northwest Territories and Yukon Territory.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: When the parliamentary assistant said they were now asking for power, did he mean in this bill?


George Prudham: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
PRECIOyS METALS MARKING ACT

Alphonse Fournier: the second reading of Bill No. 83, to amend the Precious Metals Marking Act, 1946.


William Joseph Browne: Explain.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, in 1906 the Gold and Silver Stamping Act was passed] to provide for the accurate stamping of articles made of these metals. This became known as the Gold and Silver Marking Act in 1913, and in order to include platinum, which was becoming increasingly important in jewelry production, the act was amended in 1928 to include this metal, and became the Precious Metals Marking Act. Various amendments were made in

later years, and in 1946 those amendments were consolidated and the act generally revised.
Briefly, the purpose of the act is to provide that when articles composed of, or plated with, gold, silver or platinum are marked, such markings shall indicate the actual quality of the metal content. Licences are issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce to manufacturers to permit the use of the national mark on articles made of gold or silver and wholly of Canadian manufacture.
The Department of Trade and Commerce maintains a constant check on applied quality marks, and makes tests to ascertain the fineness of precious metals in articles. As a result, the illegal description of articles manufactured of gold, silver and platinum has practically disappeared. The group of metals classed as precious include gold, silver, platinum, palladium, ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium. Until recently only gold, silver and platinum were used commercially to any extent. Palladium is a white metallic element of the platinum group. It is produced in Canada, and is a by-product of nickel refining. The by-products from such refining contain metals of the platinum family in a manner in which further refining is necessary.
In its pure state palladium is malleable and ductile, and is slightly harder than either gold or platinum. It can be hardened for jewelry manufacture by the addition of small amounts of other metal, usually ruthenium. This produces an all-platinum metal alloy that is resistible to wear, has the strength and toughness to retain gems permanently, is highly resistant to tarnish, and will retain a brilliant polish. Recently the jewelry industry has started the manufacture of articles composed of palladium. As it is the view of the industry that the use of this metal will likely increase as time goes on, it is desirable that it be brought within the provisions of the Precious Metals Marking Act, and that is the purpose of the present bill.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I want to make one or two brief general observations on the Precious Metals Marking Act. I did so when the act was under consideration in 1946, and the minister then piloting the bill through the house said he would give consideration to my suggestions.
The principle is very good, and there can be no objection whatever to having articles of jewelry, particularly, stamped with the fineness of the precious metal used in making the object. However, I believe a strong case could be made for the adoption of a Canadian hall-mark. This act, in common 55946-1511
Precious Metals Marking Act with the 1946 act, merely states that the fineness of the metal shall be stamped on a piece of jewelry, for instance. It does not provide that the jewelry shall be stamped with the date, the country of origin, or anything else. The English hall-mark, and some of the continental hall-marks, though not to the same extent, are extremely valuable and useful methods of marking articles made of precious metals, particularly gold and silver. As the age of the object increases, so does its value. These hall-marks enable those concerned to ascertain where the article was made, when it was made, and other pertinent facts concerning it, whereas under our system we merely designate the type of metal and the fineness.
I mention this point for the reason that in Canada today the goldsmithing and silver-smithing industry is increasing rapidly, and a great deal of the very finest jewelry as well as flatware, silver, cutlery, and other things are now made in this country. In order to encourage this industry, and in order to show the rest of the world that we in Canada do produce high quality articles of great artistry, I believe a Canadian hallmark should be devised which would not only show the fineness of the metal but also the year of manufacture and the fact that it was made in Canada. I feel that by including these markings on precious metals we would be aiding our craftsmen and our precious metals industry. We would also be advertising throughout the world the fact that we in Canada had a goldsmiths' and silversmiths' industry of which we were proud.
I mention that because the International Nickel Company, which advertises all over the world, is now making a special advertising drive in some of the quality papers of the United States concerning the use of this metal palladium. It is said to be one of the most useful metals for the setting of jewels. I think it would be of assistance if metals such as palladium were marked as being of Canadian origin by having a "C", or some other insignia, stamped upon it. I suggest that to the parliamentary assistant as a means of encouraging our own industry, and advertising our own craftsmen.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Dion in the chair.
On section 1-Palladium.
Mr. Green:: Mr. Chairman, is this amendment being made at the request of the jewelers' association?
2374	HOUSE OF
Precious Metals Marking Act


George James McIlraith: That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: Is there only the one new metal, that is palladium? Has consideration been given to including any other metals?


George James McIlraith: There is only the one new metal being used commercially in the manufacture of jewelry. The use of it has only recently started. This new metal is a little harder than platinum, and has been used heretofore in the mounts for holding gems. It is now being used in the articles themselves. No other metal, apart from those mentioned in this act, is in that position. None of the other metals I have mentioned are being used in jewelry manufacture.


Howard Charles Green: There is one other question with regard to this section, I notice in clause 2 that a plated article is being made to apply only to articles which are plated with gold and silver. Formerly it also applied to articles plated with platinum. Why is that change being made?


George James McIlraith: The reason for that change is that there is no such technique as platinum plating in use. There is just gold and silver plating in use.


Howard Charles Green: The original act contained an error?


George James McIlraith: Yes.


George Matheson Murray: I hope this measure will assist in creating a market for sterling silver in Canada. It would be a great thing for the silver mines of British Columbia. If -one reads the magazines and newspapers one finds that articles which are merely silver plated are described as being of silver. Even In the parliamentary restaurant, we have articles placed before us which are merely silver plated. Silver is not so precious that we could not have sterling silver in every household in Canada. The use of Canadian-mined silver should be encouraged. Anything that disguises, debases or misrepresents either gold or silver is a severe blow to the mining industry of this country, and to the miners who are engaged in that industry. Reference has been made to the Keno Hill mine which is producing thousands of dollars' worth of silver per day. Probably most of that silver goes to Belgium and the United States, although some of it remains in Canada. I believe very little of it goes into the manufacture of that splendid ware called sterling silver which, as I say, should be prominent in all homes in Canada.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Can the parliamentary assistant give us some information as to the procedure which is followed in conjunction with the marking, and how it is


regularized? Is it done by the public authorities? 1 notice there are stringent penalty clauses in this act, and I was going to ask one or two questions about that, but perhaps the parliamentary assistant would describe to us-it may be in the original act but I have not had time to read it fully-just how the markings are made and how infractions are dealt with.	.


George James McIlraith: Mr. Chairman, the applying of the markings to articles manufactured in Canada is done by the manufacturer. The actual working out, in conjunction with the standard branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce, is not difficult, but perhaps I could best illustrate it by indicating that regular inspection is made of the manufacturing premises so that there will be no breach by the manufacturers. It is something that, in practice, works out rather easily.
Then, on the other side, the retail trade, imported articles can be picked up and dealt with from the point of view of infractions. Perhaps the best way of illustrating the whole matter is to give the committee the number of inspections made last year. I think that will perhaps more effectively answer the inquiry than anything I could say. During the year 1949 the total number of premises inspected under this act was 4,164.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Different
premises?


George James McIlraith: The total number of warnings issued under the act was 49; the total number of items of advertising examined was 4,483; and the total number of assays of the materials and tests was 306. The total number of prosecutions under the act was nil. There was .no need for any prosecutions. In this legislation the jewelry trade is very alert to protect itself against any debasement of materials, or anything even bordering on fraud or misrepresentation to the public. For that reason it is relatively simple to administer the act because, in effect, you have the benefit of the watchful eye of the trade at all times.
The history of the act is that it was brought in to prevent the false passing of articles as being gold and silver when they were not gold and silver. In fact, it has now become so well accepted and so generally recognized as beneficial to the trade that the trade itself does a great deal of the policing and sending in information as to suspected infractions.


Howard Charles Green: The industry polices itself.


George James McIlraith: Yes. They are quick to pick up anything that appears like an irregularity and send in information. Then it is a simple matter to inspect from that point on.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I understood the parliamentary assistant to say that over 4,100 establishments were inspected.


George James McIlraith: Yes.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I should like to know how many of those are what could be called manufacturing establishments, because I understood him to say that there were some 306 tests. I suppose they would be made perhaps in the manufacturing establishment. Perhaps the parliamentary assistant, when he answers that question, would also tell us how imports are dealt with, because that seems to me to raise a question.


George James McIlraith: It will be seen from the provisions of the act itself that imports are covered by certain sections; that is, imported articles. But they can easily be checked through the retail outlets. It is easy. As to any jewelry store selling an article if it does not comply with the act, first you have the jeweler himself who is probably alert to it and to see that it does meet the requirements of the act before he will handle it. And if it does get on the market, of course, there is quick complaint from others.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Am I right in thinking that articles may still be imported from countries in which there is no similar regulation or at any rate no exactly similar regulations? What is done with regard to markings there if they do not correspond with ours?


George James McIlraith: The effective point is that the retailer will not buy them. The trade channels will not purchase an imported article if it does not comply with them. That is the effective check in the trade.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then are these regulations international?


George James McIlraith: No, they are not international. They are Canadian regulations.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I am sorry, but I do not understand it yet. Suppose some article is imported. First of all, you test the jeweler and perhaps even more you test in another way. There would be a duty on some of these. They are not free.


George James McIlraith: I am afraid I cannot give the tariff.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: My question, at any rate, is this. Is there a problem when they are imported? Exactly how is it ascertained that they comply with our tests or what alternative marking is taken as an equivalent?


George James McIlraith: As a matter of practice, the first check you have is the purchaser or the
Precious Metals Marking Act importer of the article. This act is well established in the trade. The trade finds the act beneficial. The first effective check is your purchaser; that is, the trade purchaser, the wholesaler, the person who may be importing. After that, there is no effective check other than-


James MacKerras Macdonnell: May I interrupt and ask what precaution the purchaser takes when he is importing? Does he raise the question of the markings?


George James McIlraith: Yes, definitely. Otherwise he would be in the position of selling an article that was contrary to the act.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Then I
understand the markings may not be the same, and that is my question. If there is no international convention, in importing, let us say, from Switzerland or the United States, how does the importer comply with the requirements of the Canadian markings?


George James McIlraith: He has the manufacturer put the marking on. That is a common practice in the trade, generally. It applies, for instance, in the car import. If you go into a foreign manufacturing establishment, you will see that there are certain things on the cars or bicycles going to different countries that are different. The same thing applies here.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: As I understand it, in Canada the department carries out tests. They do not just take it for granted that when a marking is put on it necessarily complies with the requirements. The department makes tests?


George James McIlraith: It has tests made.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Does the department have similar tests made abroad or have they any arrangement whereby they accept some certificate from abroad?


George James McIlraith: I would ask my hon. friend just to wait a moment until my officials get here.


William Joseph Browne: I suppose that question has to do with the protection of the public and the inspectors.


George James McIlraith: No; that question has not to do with the protection of the public, because the public is fully protected when the inspection is made; and it does not matter whether the inspection is made in Canada or abroad, as far as protecting the public is concerned. No inspections are made by our department abroad under this act. There are, by the way, samples sent in for inspection here; but no inspection is actually made abroad. I might add one supplementary part to my answer. They are not cleared by the
2376	HOUSE OF
Precious Metals Marking Act customs, of course, until there is a clearance from the standards branch of our department, so that they do not get out where the public would purchase them.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I go back to my other question. May we be told just what the procedure is? Let us trace an article coming from Switzerland, and let us find out what the importer does, then how it comes into Canada, who scrutinizes it and how we are satisfied that the standards are maintained.


George James McIlraith: The actual practice is for the inspectors of the standards branch to go to the customs warehouse and to make an examination there. If the markings are in accord with the act, then an article may be released for assay.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Can they test quality on the spot in that informal manner?


George James McIlraith: I said that if the markings are in accord with the act the article may be released out of customs for assay; and that tests quality as well.


Howard Charles Green: Do they have inspectors in each of the main ports?


George James McIlraith: There are inspectors in the areas adjacent to all the main ports.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The point is somewhat
similar to the one I raised. In the United States marking of silver they use the word "sterling". As far as I know, there is no designation of the fineness on the article. Continental silver-Swiss, Austrian, German -has the fineness designated; I think it is 800 fine. I think that is the standard. The American regulations, before the word "sterling" can be put on a piece of silver, require a standard whereby it shall be of such and such a fineness; but that fineness, as far as I know-and I think I am correct in this- is not put on the article. Mexican silver has the fineness put on it. I think it has a national mark as well. Many of the manufacturers of silverware, Jensen and others that are internationally known, put their own mark on it, but-and this is the thing I am getting at-because the Jensen mark is on a piece of silver marked "sterling" or marked even with the fineness it does not necessarily mean that that piece of silver, as far as my information goes, was in fact made by the Jensen factories in Denmark. We should insist that a piece of Canadian silver shall have a distinguishable Canadian mark, giving both the hallmark itself, as in Britain, and the country of origin and the date. As far as I can see, the difficulty that the hon. member for Greenwood raises is that in the importation of a piece of silver or any precious metal, particularly a


piece of artistic work, no definite custom in marking is followed, because each country has its own way of marking silver, or any precious metal.


George James McIlraith: I had intended to deal with the earlier remarks of the hon. member for York West on section 6 of the bill, but perhaps I can deal with them now on this section. I should point out that the practice in the European countries is to use the word "sterling" and indicate the fineness at the same time. In Canada and in the United States the use of the word "sterling" itself indicates that it is of a certain fineness, well recognized by the trade.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What is it, 800?


George James McIlraith: It is 925/1000, so that the Canadian product in that respect is put in an advantageous position.
Dealing with the point raised earlier, it seems to me that it ignores the basic fact that this act is an act for the protection of the consumer. The point raised by the hon. member for York West, and it is an excellent one, had to do with bettering the trade advantage in the export markets; that is, by building up a reputation through identification of the product by a well-known identification mark that would, I presume, bear a very high reputation in the markets of the world. It seems to me that that problem is not something to be dealt with in this act, and is something that is not basically for the protection of the consumer in Canada, but for the improvement of the trade. It is something that should not be imposed in absolute terms in an arbitrary way by the statute but rather should be brought forward and developed voluntarily by the trade, and then applied under the terms of the national trade-mark legislation. On examination I think that that would be found to be the satisfactory way of achieving the desirable ends that the hon. member for York West hoped would be brought about.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I do not want to labour this point at all. I thank the parliamentary assistant for his understanding of the problem which I did raise. This act deals primarily with the sale of bullion before it is manufactured into articles. I would imagine that is so particularly as it is dealing with palladium, and the huge percentage of the palladium produced in Canada is exported in bar form or bullion form for manufacture in the United States or in Holland, Switzerland or in the other jewelry-producing countries.


George James McIlraith: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not quite the situation with respect to the

act. The act is primarily concerned with the protection of consumers against wrongly labelled retail articles.


Agar Rodney Adamson: If that is so, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the parliamentary assistant consult with the trade and see whether something of this nature cannot be written into the act at another session, because several people I know have started off in the manufacture of really first-class high-grade silver articles and have built up quite a business; and while they did not consider themselves penalized, they have wished that, as their product grew older, one could recognize its age as one can the date of a piece of Georgian silver in England. It has the Georgian hallmark on it. It may be from the Dublin mint, the Birmingham mint, or the London mint, but it is valued as it grows older for the different hall-marks it bears. Since we are building up a very important jewelry trade in Canada I suggest that this protection, which seems to be so valuable for English silver and plate, should be granted our manufacturers.


George James McIlraith: I shall be very glad to see that that point is taken up with the trade.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I have a point. I introduce it by reading just a sentence or two from section 13 of the original act, subsection (d):
Every dealer is guilty of an offence who
(d) makes, sells, or imports or otherwise brings into Canada, an article to which any mark not authorized by this act or by regulation is applied...
My question is this: Are there any standards of any kind anywhere else which are as well recognized as, and bear a reputation equal to that of, the English hall-marks? Are there any standards of any kind that we will accept as equivalent to our own, or must everything have our own markings?


George James McIlraith: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are certain marks that we very definitely accept.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: How does the subsection I have just read apply to them? Does not everyone who uses them and does not use our own marks come within the terms of the section?


George James McIlraith: Will the hon. member look at section 6, subsection 4, paragraphs (a) and (b), of the 1946 act?


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I have not got it now.


George James McIlraith: The hon. member will find it squarely covers the point raised.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What is the section?
Research Council Act


George James McIlraith: Section 6 (4) (a) and (b). Paragraph (a) covers the point particularly.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: The subsection says:
Subsections two and three of this section shall not apply to any article
(a) that is hall-marked in accordance with the laws of the United Kingdom; or-	*
And so on. In other words the parliamentary assistant is confirming what he said a moment ago to the effect that other standards are accepted. What is the test? How does he determine which one we accept? Do we test them in terms of our own requirements, or do we follow their general reputation? How many tests are there?


George James McIlraith: The practice in the United Kingdom is to have these articles assayed before the hall-mark may be applied. We in fact take the hall-mark without further assay.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: What other tests are there?


George James McIlraith: That same procedure would apply to certain articles from Holland, Switzerland and France-other than the United Kingdom.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 to 7 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Alphonse Fournier: the second reading of Bill No. 179, to amend the Research Council Act.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Would the parliamentary assistant, in his speech, give us the general background of the research council?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I did that rather fully at the resolution stage. After doing it I came to the conclusion that I had gone into a great deal more detail in respect of the bill than probably I should have at that stage.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: I was not
here.


George James McIlraith: Immediately this motion passes, it is my intention to ask that the bill be referred to the committee set up to examine into the operations of the national research council?
2378	HOUSE OF COMMONS
Business of the House


James MacKerras Macdonnell: Very well.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.
Motion, agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the special committee appointed to examine into the operations of the national research council.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: the adjournment of the house.
He said: This is the first time I have been at a loss to indicate what we should do. If we were to use the short time left before six o'clock I would have to make the formal motion to go into supply.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps we might call it six o'clock.
Tomorrow we will take up Bill No. 178, to amend the Excise Tax Act. That is the only financial bill we can take up tomorrow, I understand. Then we will proceed to Bill No. 181, to amend the Railway Act. That is the grade crossing bill. We will then take Bill No. 153, to amend the Aeronautics Act. We will then go into supply and take the estimates of the Department of Transport.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 5.50 p.m.

Thursday, May 11, 1950