1950-06-27

Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of ihe Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, I realize of course the reason for the beautiful flowers in front of the Prime Minister. This is a date which the Prime Minister has every reason to remember with satisfaction. I would point out that it is particularly appropriate that red flowers should have been chosen, because it is a colour I am sure he will remember for some time.


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the leader of the opposition for associating himself with members on this side of the house in this anniversary.



REPORTS OF COMMITTEES

[Stage Direction]
Fourth report of standing committee on external affairs.-Mr. Bradette.
Fourth, fifth and sixth reports of standing committee on public accounts.-Mr. Picard.


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, some time after the appointment of Mr. T. D. MacDonald, K.C., as the present commissioner of the Combines Investigation Act, he requested that a committee be convened for the purpose of studying the act and recommending whether it could be made a more effective instrument. I have agreed with his request, and a committee has been set up accordingly comprising the following members: Hon. Mr. Justice J. H. MacQuarrie, Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, Halifax; Dr. W. A. Mackintosh, vice-principal of Queen's university, Kingston; Professor Maurice Lamontagne, assistant director of the department of economics, Laval university, Quebec; and Mr. George F. Curtis, dean of the university of British Columbia law school, Vancouver.
The terms of reference are to study, in the light of present day conditions, the purposes and methods of the Combines Investigation Act and related Canadian statutes, the legislation and procedures of other countries, in
so far as the latter appear likely to afford assistance, and to recommend what amendments, if any, should be made to our Canadian legislation in order to make it a more effective instrument for the encouraging and safeguarding of our free economy.
To avoid any possible misunderstanding, I desire to emphasize that no suggestions of amendments are being made to the committee for its consideration. It is the practice, however, to take stock of such acts from time to time to see whether any modifications should be considered in the light of administrative experience, changed conditions or otherwise. It is for such a purpose that this study has been arranged.


George Alexander Drew: May I ask whether what the Minister of Justice has just read incorporates the actual wording of the terms of reference; or have the terms of reference already been stated?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: What I have read certainly incorporates the whole substance of the terms of reference. As formally submitted they may differ in a word or two, but there will be no significant difference in the substance.


George Alexander Drew: Then I suggest that the terms of reference should include a request to the commission to ascertain what steps should be taken to deal with any member of a government who breaks a law of this parliament.



INTERNATIONAL LABOUR ORGANIZATION


Mr. Paul E. Cole (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Labour):: In conformity with the provisions of article 19 of the constitution of the international labour organization, I desire to lay on the table the authentic text of the conventions and recommendations adopted at the thirty-second session of the international labour conference at Geneva last June and July.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. D. Fulion (Kamloops):: Has the
Minister of Agriculture yet received a report on flood conditions in the valley of the Lillooet river at Pemberton, British Columbia,

Inquiries of the Ministry where it was reported that dikes constructed under P.F.R.A. had been breached in one or two places and many acres flooded? I was in touch with the minister's office last week, but have not since heard from him.


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: The report concerning this matter came to me last week, when I was in the west. I discussed the present position with with Mr. L. B. Thomson, the commissioner under P.F.R.A., who informed me that he had been in touch with people at Lillooet and that all necessary work had been done in order to minimize the damage from flood conditions.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Gordon Graydon (Peel):: May I ask the
parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Finance when he intends to make a statement to the house with respect to the settlement of the debts owing this country which he made during his recent trip to Europe?


Mr. James Sinclair (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: The Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) spoke to me in this connection earlier this month and suggested that when he tabled the agreements or when his estimates were up for consideration I could make a short statement, if there is any desire to have it made.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. O. White (Middlesex East):: Since both the Minister of Agriculture and his parliamentary assistant are in their seats this morning, will they elaborate on the answer given yesterday concerning the requisition order for cheese and the possibility of increasing the price?


Mr. Speaker:: Orders of the day.


Some hon. Members:: Answer.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not read what was said yesterday, but will do so later.



CANADIAN MARITIME COMMISSION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver-Quadra):: May I ask the Minister of Transport whether

it will be possible for us to get copies of the annual report of the Canadian maritime commission within the next day or two?


Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport):: The last word I had from the commission was that the report was not ready yet. I do not know whether it will be possible to have it ready before prorogation, but if so I shall see that hon. members receive copies.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE General-Dominion coal board -
449. Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $101,040.


Mr. Gillis:: This board is relatively new, and I believe is a very important organization. We have done a great deal in the way of probing and searching the coal industry of Canada in the last few years. We had a royal commission that sat for about eighteen months and brought in a long report containing many recommendations with respect to the rehabilitation and modernization of the coal industry, particularly stressing the possibilities of marketing our coal. This board arose from that very expensive report; that was one of the recommendations of the royal commission. Of course it had been advocated in this house for many years previously, but the royal commission definitely pointed out the desirability of setting up a national coal board for the purpose of coordinating the industry across the country.
The legislation creating that board set out definite duties and responsibilities it was to undertake. It has a capable chairman, but I do not like the set-up with respect to representation from the industry and from those who produce the coal. I believe it is top-heavy with coal operators, and has very little representation from the men who dig the coal; in fact, it is four to one. Nevertheless the board has certain duties and responsibilities. It is doing some work, I admit, in the regulation of subventions, seeing that the money granted by parliament for purposes of expansion is spent properly, and so on. Meetings have been held in the coal-operating sections of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick at least, and I believe at the present time the board is engaged in a survey of the coal industry in the United States.
That is all to the good; but one definite responsibility placed upon that board has not been even touched. I refer to the responsibility of devising ways and means of

marketing Canadian coal, to put the industry in a better position than it has been for years past. That is the matter I am going to bring to the attention of the minister.
We import a huge amount of coal from the United States, while if our industry were operating at capacity we could produce perhaps one-third of our own requirements. We have made some progress by way of granting money as loans to the eastern operators for the purpose of modernizing the old collieries still in operation; and the whole trend has been to reduce costs. I am not going to argue that point, but I am convinced that it is not possible to reduce costs in the old collieries of Nova Scotia to any appreciable extent because of the long haul and the high pumping and power costs, which in my opinion are the main disabilities.
As I see it the problem has always been one of marketing. Back in the thirties and up until the outbreak of the war the industry in Nova Scotia was working two or three days per week, practically on a relief basis. When war commenced the demand for coal permitted full-time operations, but soon after the war the industry slumped back to parttime operations. Regardless of whether we increase production, the main problem so far as Nova Scotia is concerned is the problem of marketing. There are no assured markets. There is a hit or miss arrangement which prevents the operators, the customers, or the employees in the industry from making any definite long-range plan.
Before his estimates are concluded I want the minister to tell us what the dominion coal board is doing in the matter of providing long-range markets on a permanent basis for Canadian coal. On many occasions I ha:,m said in this house that that can be done only by a zoning of markets in Canada in which Canadian coal could reasonably compete with United States coal. From time to time the opinion has been expressed that there is no economic market in Canada for Canadian coal; that it is a straight matter of assisting coal operations by way of subventions or subsidies. So far as I am concerned that illusion was shattered, and I think it should be so far as the minister is concerned, in the committee on railways and shipping before which Mr. Donald Gordon appeared. The Canadian National Railways are large consumers of coal, and Mr. Gordon was questioned about the difficulty experienced by the railway because of the stoppage of work in the United States. The railways' stockpile of coal in eastern Canada was lowered to the extent that a curtailment of traffic was necessary. Mr. Gordon assured us that so far as the Canadian
Supply-Trade and Commerce National was concerned there was an economic area for maritime coal which extended from Sydney, Nova Scotia, to Coteau, about thirty miles west of Montreal. That area was never planned, for the simple reason that sixty or seventy per cent of the coal stockpiled by the railways in eastern Canada is coal from the United States. No arrangement was ever made to stockpile Canadian coal in that area, where it was available and where it was economical. There was a definite lack of planning for that Canadian market, and I want to find out if there is any planning being carried out at the present time.
Mr. Gordon pointed out to us that this year the Nova Scotia and New Brunswick coal operators could not supply the requirements of the Canadian National Railways in that area. Of course this year is an abnormal year owing to the depletion of the stockpiles and the necessity for rebuilding them. I might say that my discussions with Mr. Gordon represented the first time in my experience that officials in this country have made a practical and realistic approach to this problem. I am convinced there is an area there that can be allocated to eastern Canada on a permanent long-range basis. This area would absorb the main production of the maritimes and perhaps permit an expansion in that particular section.
The Alberta and British Columbia end does not look so good. The Canadian National is displacing the steam locomotive with the diesel and is thereby cutting into the coal market. Oil is backing the coal operators out of the picture in that area. In my own province the coal industry is the basic industry, and everything else is built around it. The steam locomotive has not been displaced by the diesel in that section, and that displacement will not take place for some considerable time. Despite the progress made in the building of that type of locomotive, the roadbed from Montreal to Halifax will not accommodate a diesel at the speed it travels. It means practically rebuilding the roadbed from Montreal east, so that the market for coal is likely to be there for some time, and advantage should be taken of it.
In order that stockpiling would be possible, the area from Montreal east should be allocated to the maritime coal industry. Although I am stressing this I do not want to make a long speech, because during the last ten years the minister and I have discussed this so often that we know each other's opinions. Mr. Gordon definitely gave me a new hope, because I feel that if such a zone is established and arrangements are made accordingly with the Canadian National

Supply-Trade and Commerce Railways, it would be a long step forward for the maritime coal operators. I want to emphasize again that it is not a matter of increasing production or lowering costs; it is a matter of permanent markets which would enable the industry and the people dependent upon the industry to plan their future with assurance. I should like the minister's comments on that particular aspect of the problem.


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I agree with the hon. member for Cape Breton South that the duty of the coal board is to find markets for Canadian coal. I suggest to my hon. friend that the board has been doing just that. Since 1942 the coal industry in Nova Scotia has had much wider markets available than it has been able to supply. There have been small interruptions, perhaps, because of situations that can be smoothed out and will be smoothed out, such as a member of the industry not doing the marketing at the right time. I do not know of a day lost in the coal fields that has been due to any basic lack of markets for maritime coal. At the moment the difficulty is that during this year the mines will hardly be able to produce all the coal that can be used in the maritime provinces.
The policy that is being administered by the coal board is a policy of flexible subventions, watched very carefully from day to day, and directed toward all the markets that can be found for all the coal that is mined. I believe that it is a policy that is meeting the needs of the maritime coal industry, and will continue to do so. My hon. friend is aware that the government is endeavouring to step up the production of coal in the maritime provinces. To do so the government is lending the greater part of $10 million to the industry. I suggest the government would hardly be willing to take that step without being confident it can find markets for that coal.
The hon. member suggests that a zone be kept exclusively for maritime coal. The difficulty is that if a zone is marked out and reserved entirely for maritime coal, we must be certain that the maritimes can provide all the coal needed in that zone. To mark out a zone as far west as Coteau Junction at the moment would be foolish, because we know the maritimes cannot supply much more than fifty per cent of the coal required in that area this year. Then, there is the matter of keeping alive the markets that have been developed in the past. Maritime coal has been used at Arvida and as far west as Kapuskasing. I believe the industry wishes to keep maritime coal in those markets, so that if lack of other markets

should develop, those markets could be quickly reclaimed. Those are factors, perhaps not important factors, but I mention them to suggest that a rigid zoning of an area for marketing Canadian coal is not in my opinion as advantageous to the industry as a flexible market administered by a coal board that is watching the situation from day to day and enlarging the markets as the day to day situation may require.
My hon. friend mentioned the western coal situation. That situation is much more difficult today than is the maritime situation, for the reason that oil is being produced in an area alongside that which is producing coal, and there is a tendency for oil to displace coal in the markets nearest to the mines. These are the markets that are easiest for the coal industry to compete in. That situation is being watched carefully. The coal board is making an effort to find new and more distant markets to replace nearer markets that are being lost to the competitive product. Every step has been taken that I can think of to protect markets for the western industry. Nevertheless it is obvious-and I am sure it is obvious to the operators of the mines in the western area-that the production of western coal is likely to be on a reduced scale, as oil continues to make inroads into markets that were formerly held by the western coal operators.


Clarence Gillis: May I give the minister a case in point? He says he is not aware of any curtailment of operations in any section of the maritimes because of lack of markets. On Friday of last week I received a letter from the board member of the united mine workers at Inverness. That is an operation that has been carried on by the provincial government for the last twenty years. Their main market in the past has been the C.N.R. This board member wrote to me-and I sent the letter on to the coal board-to the effect that they were practically closed down, that there was drastic curtailment of operations, and that the reason was lack of demand from the Canadian National Railways. He asked me to check here to see if there was not a possibility of arranging for the marketing of that particular coal with the C.N.R. I sent that letter along to the coal board. But that is one spot that I can mention.
I might say to the minister that it is the small operator who gets caught. The big fellow can look after himself, negotiate his contracts and fix the price with the railroads; and in many cases it is a price with which the small operator cannot compete. So far as the small operator is concerned there is reason there for the board to take hold and to see if it cannot work out some reasonable

arrangements for the small operators. I am not excusing the provincial government; they are the operators. The operation is carried on to maintain a fairly large community, and for no other reason. On economic grounds I do not think it could justify itself, but on humanitarian grounds it has been operated for years. I think the provincial government should have sufficient influence with the C.N.R. to arrange a market for the amount of coal that is produced in that particular community.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The coal board is aware of the Inverness situation, as I am myself. The difficulty there is the quality of the coal produced. The railroad would be delighted to take the coal if it were up to railroad specifications, but I think my hon. friend will agree that the coal board cannot insist that a customer take a quality of coal that is not up to the standard required by the service he operates.
My hon. friend suggests that it is the small mine operator who is being squeezed. I suggest to him that the province of Nova Scotia is no small operator-


Clarence Gillis: They operate on a small scale.


Clarence Decatur Howe: -and that it is well able to market coal if the coal is of a quality that is salable. But we are aware of the Inverness situation. It is an unhappy one. The operation lost $200,000 last year, and I do not know what the outcome is to be. Fortunately the provincial government is dealing with the problem.


Mr. Hansell:: I did not want to interrupt
the hon. member for Cape Breton South and the minister as they were discussing this matter. I largely agree with what both have said. In his reply to the hon. member I am pleased that the minister included some remarks with respect to western coal. I am glad he recognizes the fact that the western coal mine operators are fearful that the use of oil may almost put them out of business. During the last few months there has been some considerable curtailment in the production of bituminous coal in western Canada, partly owing to the fact that the railroads are beginning to convert their locomotives to diesels. I know that we have to trust the minister in these matters. It is pleasant to hear him say that the coal board is watching the situation closely; but I do not know how much hope that sort of phraseology is going to give to the coal mining industry of western Canada. Concealed within that phraseology may be a good deal of mystery as to the future of the coal mining industry in that part of the country.
Supply-Trade and Commerce
During this session the minister indicated that he was anxious to have the pipe lines bills passed. I am not going to say anything about that matter; but in his anxiety to have the pipe lines bills passed he must have also recognized the fact that even the pipe lines and the export of oil would have some repercussions in the coal mining industry. We know that we cannot stand in the way of progress. As time goes on and as civilization passes from one era to another there are discoveries and developments, and one thing supersedes another. At the same time I think it is the responsibility of government to guard industry as much as possible, even in the light of the development of new things which might displace the industries of the past. But I believe there could be another solution to this problem. Canada is not as broadly industrialized today as it might be. Nearly all the industries in Canada are fairly well concentrated in the central provinces of Ontario and Quebec. If the government, as the minister says, is watching the situation carefully, I think some consideration should be given to the greater industrialization of western Canada. The more industry we can have in western Canada, the greater will be the opportunity for the coal mining industry to survive; therein lies the opportunity, in my opinion, for additional markets for western coal. But to industrialize western Canada I know is a tremendous job. The provinces of the west are doing all they can to encourage industrialization. The government should give more tangible aid in the industrialization of western Canada.
I rose to ask a particular question, and I trust the minister may be able to answer it. When the government requires coal for its own purposes, such as the purpose of defence, at training stations and other government-operated enterprises, tenders are called for. As I understand it, the Canadian Commercial Corporation is the institution used for the purpose of preparing those tenders. I hold in my hand an "Invitation to Tender"-that is the title of the document. These go out to the various coal mining interests when it is coal that the government requires.
My attention has been called to the fact that the description given in the invitation to tender is such that certain coal mines that could supply an equivalent grade of coal, or a coal that would compare most favourably with that description, might be ruled out because the mines could not supply coal of the actual name and grade given in the description. The suggestion that has come to me, and perhaps it has come to the coal board also, is that in the description the phrase "or the equivalent grade" should be

Supply-Trade and Commerce added, thus enabling other coal mines to put in their bids and have their coal of an equivalent grade stand a better chance of acceptance. I am bringing this to the attention of the minister in the hope that he will pass it on to the coal board in some favourable light.
The document that I hold in my hand calls for quite a number of orders. Here is one for 800 tons, and the description is:
Coal-bituminous slack; 40 per cent Comox and 60 per cent Drumheller or McLeod. Suitable for use in low pressure steam boilers (stoker fired).
If the phrase "or equivalent" were added, it would not rule out some of the companies from the bids. Here is another one: 75 tons-a small order; nevertheless we have small mines too that might benefit from being able to secure an order of that kind. Here is another for 300 tons, and another for 25 tons, and so forth. I do not suppose this is the only invitation to tender that there is. There may be a great deal more coal required than what is called for in this invitation. I wonder whether the minister would give favourable consideration to this suggestion, so that other coal mines would not necessarily be obviously ruled out from bidding.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is my understanding that public tenders specify the B.T.U. value of coal, the moisture content and the ash content; that samples of coal are tested before the purchase is made, and the best value for the money is accepted. However, I shall be glad to call the attention of the Canadian Commercial Corporation to the remarks of my hon. friend and changes can be made that will not prejudice the right of the government to obtain the best value in the coal offered. If the tenders are restrictive in any way, I will see that the situation is remedied.


Ernest George Hansell: I quite agree that the government should get the very best value for their money, because they are spending taxpayers' money. I want to thank the minister for passing the suggestion on to the Canadian Commercial Corporation.


Mr. Brooks:: As the minister knows, we have a very small coal area in New Brunswick. It may not be important in the general picture, but it is very important to our province. We have had difficulties right through the piece so far as operating and selling coal are concerned, although as the minister knows we supply only about fifty per cent of the coal that is used in our own province.
Like the hon. member for Cape Breton South, I appreciate what the dominion coal board has done. We have a New Brunswick


representative on that board, which I think is giving very good satisfaction so far as our producers are concerned.
I might say that the only benefit that the coal operators in our province received from the Carroll commission report was the adoption of the recommendation that a dominion coal board be set up. The Carroll report mentioned many of the difficulties which we have in New Brunswick in the matter of the operation of coal mines, but I do not think it suggested any solution.
There is the general impression that subventions help the coal industry in New Brunswick to quite an extent. That was true some years ago, during the war, when we sold quite a lot of coal outside the province. But today, as the minister probably knows, the subvention that we receive for the carrying of coal in New Brunswick is very small. In 1948 and 1949 only 864 tons of coal were sold outside the province for which we received subventions. The amount we received was $693. It is practically nothing. Therefore in the matter of subventions New Brunswick is not receiving any assistance to amount to anything. In the same year Nova Scotia sold 144,332 tons of coal and received $1,008,934. My point is this, Mr. Chairman. New Brunswick coal would receive subvention assistance if it were sold outside the province, yet we have to compete with coal coming from Nova Scotia which receives subvention in New Brunswick, and the result is that Nova Scotia coal in some instances is carried to certain points of our province cheaper than our own coal can be carried. I do not know whether representations have been made to the minister, but it has occurred to me that if he wishes to assist the operators in the coal industry of New Brunswick we might be granted subventions in that province so as to place us on an equal footing in that respect with the coal from Nova Scotia. We have no objection to Nova Scotia coal coming into New Brunswick, but we would like to be in the same position as they are so far as transportation costs are concerned.
I suggest the government should exercise great care in connection with the supply of coal for public buildings in the different provinces. A short time ago tenders were called to supply coal for public buildings in New Brunswick, and the specification was for Nova Scotia coal. New Brunswick coal was not asked for. I called the attention of the Minister of Public Works to this fact and in very short time he remedied it. But in matters of this kind I suggest it should not be necessary to call the attention of the department to this situation. When tenders are

called for in New Brunswick, then New Brunswick coal should be specified.
Has consideration ever been given to assisting the transportation of New Brunswick coal in New Brunswick? What amount was paid Nova Scotia coal operators by way of subventions for coal carried into New Brunswick?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As the hon. member has said, there is no difficulty in finding a market for coal produced in New Brunswick. As a matter of fact New Brunswick is an exporter of coal, about 30,000 tons of the coal of that province having been marketed in the United States last year.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: That was to a pulp mill in Maine.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. We provided capital assistance to one operator in a substantial sum so that he could enlarge his operations and thereby sell more to the United States. As the hon. member knows, very little coal comes out of New Brunswick into other Canadian provinces. When it does it receives subvention assistance, the same as the coal from other provinces. The subvention policy, however, does not extend to the movement of coal within a province, and that condition applies all across Canada. My hon. friend is mistaken when he says that subvention is paid on Nova Scotia coal delivered in New Brunswick; that just does not happen.
If there were a problem in connection with the marketing of New Brunswick coal we should be only too happy to attack that problem and find a solution for it. At the present time the New Brunswick operators seem capable of taking care of themselves and able to find their own market. The industry is in a healthy state.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: It is better now than it was.


Mr. Smith (Calgary West):: It is generally conceded that the coal mining business in Canada finds itself in a difficult position. When I heard the hon. member for Macleod refer to diesel engines my mind went back to 1932, at which time, accompanied by a number of operators and the presidents of various local unions, I had the privilege of interviewing the then minister of labour and minister of mines, Mr. Gordon. At that meeting were Sir Edward Beatty of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and Sir Henry Thornton, representing the Canadian National. I cannot help recalling a reply I received from Sir Edward. While at that time they had not begun to use diesels, they had begun to use oil in the locomotives moving west from Calgary; indeed, that whole area out to Vancouver became an oil burning division. I remember suggesting to Sir Edward Beatty
Supply-Trade and Commerce that perhaps that should not be done, because it would be a blow to the coal mining industry of western Canada. I have thought many times since just how true his answer was when he said, "Smith, if there is no other answer, it is progress." I believe parliament would be most unwise, in connection with any industry, to do anything to stop progress. We know that things are progressing in other countries with which we may be in competition.
In connection with our excess supplies of coal I would ask the minister whether there has been any actual advance, or any prospect thereof, in utilizing coal supplies for purposes other than fuel. We have heard from Russian propaganda sources that they have been burning their coal underground to create power. I believe it can be presumed that that report was nonsense. I know we have some experimental stations, but would it not be wise to have some set up at the pit mouth? I am not advocating this; I am merely making an inquiry.
In these days when we speak about power we seem to think of nothing but hydro power. It seems strange that in the town of Drum-heller a plant has been operating successfully for a good many years on slack, the cheapest form of all coal mined. Would the minister make a statement as to power production when cheap coal, and perhaps gas, are available, and compare the cost with hydro power? We know it is true that once the water is harnessed the operating expenses are limited.
Will the minister indicate also whether the blow is going to fall on Alberta coal production next Saturday, July 1? I asked a question of the minister on the orders of the day to which he replied with a sound answer, namely, that that was not a matter of government business but rather an arrangement of rates between suppliers and distributors of coal, and that it was something with which the board had nothing to do. He said, however, that the situation was being watched.
My understanding is that there is a subvention of $2.50 paid to the railway companies for the hauling of this coal to the east. On top of that is an agreed rate of, I believe, $8.40. My understanding is that it is the intention of the railways now to resort to the normal rate of around $13. That, of course, would completely end the use of Alberta coal in these eastern sections. I recall having appeared before the railway commission on one occasion-it is now the board of transport commissioners. Our efforts were directed to finding the cost of hauling a ton of coal from Drumheller to North Bay and Toronto. That was at a time when cost

Supply-Trade and Commerce was not a factor in determining railway freight rates. I could not help but be amused. The Canadian National had brought from the United States an employee of the interstate commerce commission who belonged to a new professional classification; he was a railway cost accountant. The interstate commerce commission had begun the business of endeavouring to relate rates charged for the carriage of freight to cost, and I believe that was the first effort to do so on this continent. I will not mention the name of the gentleman, but he was one of the cleverest men I ever examined. I remember his saying that the haul from .western to eastern Canada was a one-way haul and the cars had to go back empty to Alberta. In building up the structure upon which a rate was finally found he charged so much a ton for the extra vibration of the bridges on the line caused by hauling empty cars back to Alberta. I thought that was wonderful cost accounting, but it struck me that they carried the use of figures a long way indeed.
I should like the minister to say something about uses of coal other than for the generation of heat. If he can tell me anything new about the impending fall of the sword on Saturday with respect to Alberta coal, I would be very happy indeed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As to the question whether any use has been found for coal other than for fuel, I think the answer is that on this continent no alternative use has been found which is economically sound. A good deal of money has been spent on experiments with the gasification of coal underground, and that has proven to be impracticable. Many millions have been spent on hydrogenation plants designed to make gasoline from coal. These have been found enormously expensive to operate, and have been pretty well rejected as impracticable. In my opinion the future of coal lies in keeping in step with progress in the development of the gas turbine. The gas turbine has economic advantages that are considerably better than those of diesel locomotives. Gas turbine engines are being operated in an experimental way today. The Brown Boveri Company of Switzerland is the leader in the development of gas turbine locomotives at the moment. Over the next few years there may be developments in gas turbines which will make them even more economical than diesels. One advantage lies in the faot that powdered coal is a first-class fuel. I think that is the hope for the future of the coal industry so far as railway operation is concerned.
My hon. friend asked whether coal can compete with hydro power as a source of


power. For a steady load the answer is no. To provide for a 100 per cent load factor hydro power will always be cheaper than power produced from coal. Nevertheless, with fluctuating power load, and especially where hydro power can take the base load, steam is often economical and may offer better economy than the enlargement of a hydroelectric installation.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Stand-by plants.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Stand-by plants perhaps, or rather plants used from time to time where expense can be saved when the power is not required. In the southern states you will find that steam is combined with hydro power and used together with resulting high economy.
My hon. friend asked if the blow to the coal mines is going to occur on July 1. The answer is no.
The hon. member for Macleod is very sceptical about the suggestion that the government is watching the situation. However, the government did watch the situation referred to. It intervened in the later stages and was able to persuade the railroads that the western mines should have a chance to adapt themselves to the changed situation. The result is that the present rates are to be continued until March 31 next. That gives the mines some opportunity to meet the changing situation.
The hon. member for Macleod suggested that there has been a drop in production. I know of no drop in production caused by any situation other than fire and flood. The Brazeau colliery plant above ground * was burned and the Cadomin mine was flooded a while ago. That has reduced the production of bituminous coal, but aside from that I know of no mine in the bituminous field that has curtailed production.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Mountain Park has given up its deep seam production.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As I understand the situation that seam is closed because of exhaustion of the seam:


Ernest George Hansell: There have been almost 200 men laid off in one mine in the Crowsnest pass.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will understand that domestic coal follows a pattern that means curtailment of operations in the summer months. The reason is that the western domestic coal cannot be stored, and usually moves directly from the mine to the consumer during the burning season.


Ernest George Hansell: It is a bituminous mine.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am told that it is a captive mine. It is owned by Consolidated Smelters. The reason it has curtailed production is that the coke ovens at Consolidated are closed down. I do not think the coal board can regulate that situation. It is not a mine that offers coal on the general market. Its coal output is used by Consolidated.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any future for Canadian coal in the chemical and plastics field?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Canadian chemical and plastics market is not one that can consume any large quantities of coal. Even in the United States that is a very limited market.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do I understand from what the minister has said that there is no improvement in the Fischer-Tropsch process?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No recent improvement.


Arthur Leroy Smith: It is not a practical thing to look forward to at the present time?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Arthur Leroy Smith: On account of the cost?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. Shaw:: I was particularly interested in the observations of the hon. member for Calgary West relating to research in this field. The minister's answer was indeed enlightening. It is my sincere hope that efforts will be continued in the field of research. I represent extensive coal mining areas, including the Brazeau colliery, where a disastrous million dollar fire has put more than 400 men out of work. It is expected they will be out of work for more than six months. When I go among the miners of Alberta I hear constantly expressions of concern as to the future of the coal industry, and as to their own employment. They refer to this matter of research, recognizing what the use of oil and gas may do to future markets for coal from the mines in that area. It is only natural that those miners, who have done nothing else throughout their working lives, should be greatly concerned. I repeat that I hope the research work will be carried on with all possible vigour.
When assistance was granted the coal mining industry of the maritime provinces for purposes of modernization, we gave our wholehearted support. We pointed out, however, that conceivably some assistance might be required by the coal mining industry of the west, and that when it became apparent that such assistance was necessary we trusted the government would be just as anxious to
give that assistance as it was to assist the industry in the maritime provinces. Only recently I was checking figures with respect to Alberta's potential coal reserves, together with information as to the actual development up to the present time. It was astonishing to learn how insignificant, if that is the proper word, the development has been in relation to the potential reserves. The operators assure us there is only one reason why the coal industry of my province has not been more fully developed; it is the insecurity of markets. They feel that if we had a clear-cut national fuel policy there probably would be a great expansion. At the present time they are also faced with high costs in relation to the sale price of their product, and a narrow margin of profit per ton.
We have some very large mining concerns in my province, such as the Brazeau collieries. We also have the small family mines, if we may call them that, where half a dozen persons or less carry on the work. Then we have a middle class group of mines such as those found at Alexo and Saunders, for example, producing what we often refer to as domestic coal. I believe that in this middle group we have reached the point where a certain amount of modernization is necessary if production is to be maintained and increased. So far as I can ascertain, however, at the present time those operators are not prepared to invest the money necessary to improve and expand their mines because the future of the industry is so insecure. I am not certain whether assistance has been made available to the coal mining industry of the west for modernization or in connection with production, and I would ask the minister whether any such assistance is granted at the present time, of course apart from subventions and things of that kind. I hesitate to ask whether any such assistance is contemplated, because the minister might tell me that is a matter of government policy to be announced in due course. Has any assistance been granted at all in the western coal mining field for such purposes as modernization?


Clarence Decatur Howe: None of the mines mentioned
by my hon. friend has asked for assistance.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I did not say they had.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If he will look at the balance
sheets of those particular operations he will find that all are in a very comfortable financial position. There has been no plan for capital assistance for the western mines. It is felt that the economic position of those mines would not warrant the government's inviting expansion of the operation. Obviously it is not wise to stimulate production for which there is no sure market. That would be bad

Supply-Trade and Commerce economics, as I am sure my hon. friend will agree. With fuel oil, produced in the same area, undercutting the price of coal, I believe any western operator would be very unwise to invest more capital to expand his operation at the present time.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I just want to make clear that there is no question of the mines having asked for assistance as yet. In view of what the minister has said, however, it seems to me that research becomes very much more important, and I believe there should be a more concerted effort on the part of the government and the board to secure markets for the product of our Canadian mines.


Mr. Johnston:: When we speak of coal, as the minister indicated a moment ago, we must keep in mind the importance of maintaining a great industry. As I think the minister knows, the west is in a more precarious position than any other mining district in Canada, in that we have the close competition of oil, which certainly is going to make an inroad into the coal market. On the other hand the coal mining industry becomes of major importance in any national catastrophe that may come upon us, such as war. We saw what happened during the last war, when our coal mines had to make a supreme effort to help supply the demands of Canada during that emergency. So even if there were no other reason I think we should pay particular attention to that industry.
The minister indicated that the department was keeping its finger on the situation in the maritimes, and expressed the opinion that things were going along fairly well there. In western Canada, however, we have not that assurance, partly because of the production of oil. As the hon. member for Macleod indicated a moment ago, we cannot halt progress; but while no one would endeavour to halt the progress that is being made in the development of oil, it seems to me we must do something to maintain this other major industry. Large numbers of .families are dependent upon coal mining for a livelihood. A moment ago the minister said he did not know of any mines that had been closed down.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I mentioned the domestic mines.


Charles Edward Johnston: When I was home at Easter the miners had a meeting at which it was stated there were 1,400 unemployed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is always a good deal of seasonal unemployment in the mines at this time of year.


Charles Edward Johnston: But this was a very sudden cut-off. Some of the operators were at that meeting, and they pointed out the difficulty they had in competing with United States


coal. They said they just could not do it. Economically I suppose they were right. If I recall aright, one of the operators went on to indicate the handicap they were under through the lack of assistance to bring their mines up to modern standards of mechanization as has been done in the maritimes. I agree with the statement by the minister a moment ago that it would not be good business to encourage production for which there is no market. I believe the coal board has been doing good work as far as it has gone, but I wondered if through the activities of the coal board we could not give the western industry a little more encouragement in the finding of markets for western coal. A moment ago the minister said the board was keeping in close touch with the situation. I am sure it is, but if the minister could give us a little more definite information about what the coal board is doing to develop a market for western coal, it would be of great assistance and encouragement to those who are engaged in mining in the western part of Canada. What is the board doing, and where is it planning these markets for western coal? Can the minister tell us just a little bit about that, and at least give the western industry some encouragement? Exactly how does the board operate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The coal board, in short, assists the industry to continue as a prosperous operation. The coal board does not perform miracles. I should be reluctant to say anything at this time that would encourage the western coal industry to believe it has a bright future, because I believe the future is far from bright. This situation arises because of developments in its own province. We shall continue to find markets for coal just as long as we can. After we have bonused, to the extent of $2.50 per ton coal which costs only $3.50 or $4 at the pithead, it becomes cheaper to take the miners on the payroll and pay them directly rather than bonus the coal.


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: First, Mr. Chairman, I want to give personal recognition to what the minister has done, and recognition to him for his knowledge and grasp of the problems of the coal industry in Canada. I also want to express my confidence in the coal board, and the work it has undertaken although it is not complete. I have special confidence in one of the members of the board, who comes from Nova Scotia, Mr. D. W. Morrison. He has been associated with the coal industry for many years. The citizens of his own town of Glace Bay have shown confidence in him year after year by re-electing him as mayor. His health has been such, though, that he has not been able to

continue. I have had many contacts with him, in delegations he has headed, and as I say, I have great confidence in him. Another man who has been associated with the coal board for many years in Ottawa is Mr. Frank Neate, who gave such great service to the province of Nova Scotia in an effort to put the coal industry on a better basis.
The coal industry is a necessary industry. It is only in time of national emergency that we really appreciate it. In order to keep it operating it has been necessary to grant large subsidies, subventions, and so on. I am glad the minister has recognized that policy whioh was put into effect in the early thirties when this industry was at the lowest point it has ever reached in the history of the country. It was meeting competition from imported coal that was being placed on cars in the United States for as little as fifty cents a ton. At that time the Canadian National was getting coal from its own areas, taken over from the Grand Trunk for as little as eighty and eighty-three cents per ton. Coal was coming into Canada from Great Britain and European points as ballast. At that time surplus electric power was being used under boilers to replace coal. This was electric power which would otherwise not be utilized. There were labour difficulties in those days, but the industry was able to carry on, and is now on a better basis.
I was interested in and concerned with the voluminous report on the coal industry submitted by Mr. Justice Carroll, now the member for Inverness-Richmond. There is a tremendous amount of information in that report, but I do not know that any of the recommendations have been actually carried out. I do not know what has been done. Perhaps the hon. member himself will be able to tell us about that. It has been recognized that the coal industry of this country is necessary, and various governments have so recognized it. The chief problem is finding markets in Canada for this industry which would give it an assured production. Last year the government assisted the industry to the extent of a loan of $10 million. This loan was given for the purpose of putting in improvements, machinery, and so on. I would be interested in having the minister say to what extent this loan has been applied. I understand that $7,500,000 was to be applied to provide machinery for the largest industry in Nova Scotia, Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation. That left $2,500,000 to provide improvements for the smaller mines in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. I should like to know to what extent that money has been allocated, and what is being done. Recently the president of Dominion Coal and Steel
Supply-Trade and Commerce Corporation announced that, in order to enable continuous production during the slack season, the coal mines at Springhill in my constituency were to have a port established on the Atlantic coast. This would enable them to ship thirty miles by rail, and then by water to the larger markets in central Canada. While these subsidies have been quite substantial, there has also been a great saving of United States currency through the production and marketing of coal in Canada which has replaced some of the imported coal. It has not been a disbursement without direct returns to this country.
I do not know that there is much more I can say now. I have a good deal of sympathy for the workmen operating those mines. They have had to struggle for years to build up the position that is now recognized, namely, that they are entitled to the largest wage that can be justified. In the county of Cumberland we have a splendid body of workmen who have proven time after time their capabilities and their desire to do their part in operating the coal mines. The smaller mines in the Joggins, River Hebert and Maccan area do not produce coal with as high B.T.U.'s as the Springhill coal, which has the highest heat units of any coal on the continent, but that area does produce splendid domestic fuel. It could be improved if washing plants were established, and I was hopeful that some of this money, the $2,500,000 applicable to the smaller mines, would be made -available for this purpose.
There is much more I could say with respect to the coal industry and its significance in the economy of Nova Scotia, the difficult years through which it has passed, and its importance to Canada as a whole. We have the assurance of the minister that he will continue to do his part in carrying out this policy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I appreciate the remarks of the hon. member for Cumberland. He has been supporting the coal industry of Nova Scotia for a great many years. He asked for some information as to the appropriations under the capital loans. There have been only two: to the Dominion Coal Company, a loan of $7,500,000, and to the Avon Coal Company, a loan of $375,000. We have a few additional applications that are being considered at the present time, but those mentioned are the only two loans that have been completed.


Percy Chapman Black: May I ask the
minister why the 1949-50 coal report has not been made available to us? The latest one I was able to get was that of the previous year, 1948-49.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Clarence Decatur Howe: The difficulty has been that we cannot get the printing finished. If we are not able to get the printed report tomorrow, we intend to table a typewritten copy.


Howard Charles Green: What is the position of the coal mining industry on Vancouver island, British Columbia? They have their problems too, but I think they are different from the maritime problems.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is in bad shape. I do not know that I could give any details, but mines in British Columbia are fairly well worked out and the situation is not good.


Ernest George Hansell: I notice that the amount of subvention, for both this year and last, is $4,500,000. Can the minister tell us what was actually spent last year of that amount?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The amount is about $3,900,000 -a little more perhaps, but in that vicinity.


Clarence Gillis: May I ask the minister this
question? The statutory vote for subsidy payments is for the purpose, as I understand it, of providing a drawback on imported coal used for metallurgical purposes. Why is there a decrease of $50,000 in that amount? What is the amount of drawback paid now on coal used for metallurgical purposes? Does the drawback apply to Canadian-produced coal as well as to American?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is a subsidy paid on Canadian coal used in making metallurgical coke. The purpose is to place an industry that uses Canadian coal on at least as favourable a footing as an industry using American coal. The only company to which that subsidy is paid, I believe, is Dosco.


Clarence Gillis: What amount is rebated?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is 49} cents a ton.


Percy Chapman Black: I should like to ask the minister if he would answer my inquiry as to what has been done or is being done to provide a shipping port so that Springhill mines can ship, through the slack season in the summer, to central Canada points by water.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nothing has been done; but as far as I know, all the coal that is mined at Springhill is moved to market in central Canada. It has been for several years and I think it will continue to be. In other words, we do not intend to permit them to have any slack season.


Percy Chapman Black: This was an
announcement made by the president of the company, Mr. Forsyth, within the last few weeks.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to look into the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

National research council-
451. Salaries and other expenses of the national research council, $9,874,903.
Howard Charles Green: This is the first item for the
national research council. As the minister knows, these estimates have been reviewed by the special committee investigating the work of the research council, and I do not think there was any objection to them. What I should like to suggest to the minister is that he give some consideration to the salaries being paid to the research officers. If he will turn to page 281 of the estimates, at which are to be found the details of these votes, he will find that, apart from the directors and assistant directors, there are only 14 other research officers who are drawing a salary of $6,000 or more, and that there are 587 who are drawing less than that figure. If the salaries are sufficient to attract the best men in the country to this work, then of course there can be no objection to them. But I think it would be worth the minister's while to see whether the salaries, particularly in the middle group, are adequate to keep the best men in the country in this field. Personally I was greatly impressed by what we learned of the work of the staff of the research council, from Dr. Mackenzie down. They are doing a splendid job; they are doing work which is of the utmost importance to a young nation like Canada. Our university graduates seem to take naturally to work of this kind. With our natural resources and our comparatively small population, this research work seems to me to be as important as any other work being done in Canada. I would ask the minister to give some thought to the question whether these salaries are adequate.


Clarence Decatur Howe: A good deal of thought has been given to that subject. I think I can say that the research council does attract the best young men in Canada.


Howard Charles Green: I think that is true now. There is no doubt about that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend perhaps has in mind that the salaries paid do not hold these young men permanently. I think that is a highly desirable situation. The worst thing that could happen to the research council would be for young men to come in there at age twenty and stay there until age sixty. A young man gives splendid work to the research council and in return he obtains splendid training from the research council. I believe it is highly desirable, in the interests of the Canadian economy, that after the young man receives that training and has been there for a few years, he should find a place in industry and continue his work in that field.


Howard Charles Green: I have more in mind the men from thirty-five to fifty who are making a career of the research council work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Such men are carefully selected, and their salaries are better, we will say, than comparable salaries in universities. We can never compete with industry. If industry needs a man with particular qualifications, it will pay any price that it takes to get the man. For instance-and I am perhaps not telling tales out of school-recently one of the men was offered $25,000 a year plus a favourable retirement plan, but he decided to stay at the research council at a salary less than $10,000. If I give too many particulars, you might place the man. The work does attract first-class men. We think that the range of salaries is adequate to attract the kind of men that it is in the public interest to attract to the work of the research council.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: The name of that man should be taken and he should be considered for a position in the cabinet.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not know that he would take that job.


Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: I want to ask the minister whether he would say a word as to the co-ordination of effort that there is with other research organizations, for example, with the one in Ontario. I think there is co-ordination, but I should like to know more about it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The purpose of the national research council was to bring about co-ordination of Canada's research efforts. I believe it is doing just that. Efforts are being made to see that there is a minimum of duplication with other research establishments and with those of the national research council, and also to see that there is no great overlapping of effort between the work of the national research council and the work of private industry. If the field is covered by another agency, that work is not undertaken at the national research council.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic energy control board-
*454. Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $57,000.
Howard Charles Green: This is the first item for the atomic energy control board. Last year the special committee on atomic energy recommended that steps should be taken to establish a second pile at Chalk River. I cannot tell from this year's estimates whether or not that recommendation is being followed. Can the minister explain, and also at the same time tell us whether there has yet been a
Supply-Trade and Commerce decision reached by Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom concerning the release of more atomic energy data for peacetime purposes? In the report of the atomic energy control board I find a reference to that. Paragraph 10 reads:
At meetings of representatives of the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada recommendations were made looking to the wider declassification of fundamental scientific information while maintaining restrictions on publication of technological data that might be of assistance to a potential enemy.
It may be that the representatives of the three countries have decided that this is not the time to make any wider declassification; but will the minister tell us the situation on these two points?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As to the first point, those associated with atomic energy expect to be in a position to recommend to the government the building of a second pile. That recommendation has not been made as yet. I believe that the scientists would give as a reason the fact that they are not quite ready with the design. They are incorporating all the knowledge that has been developed since the first pile was built. While I cannot speak positively, it has been intimated to me that the design is not yet ready. There may be several other factors associated with the projects that are being worked out actively.
As to the declassification of information regarding peacetime application of atomic energy, there has been some, but the complete exchange of information that was hoped for has not been brought about, largely as a result of steps in that direction being interrupted by the Fuchs case.


Howard Charles Green: Is the production of uranium in Canada up to the requirements of the country?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Far beyond the requirements of Canada.


Percy Chapman Black: What have been the outside expenditures under this heading up to date?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not the exact figure, but the expenditures for capital and for operating to date run about $35 million.


Percy Chapman Black: Incidentally I want to remind the minister that with respect to this $35 million, plus the appropriations totalling about $8 million which we are putting through, none of it has been spent in the maritime provinces. Therefore in this as in many other large expenditures the maritimes do not share, and that contributes to their difficulties and their lack of prosperity in relation to certain other parts of Canada.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Clarence Decatur Howe: In that regard I would remind my hon. friend that considerable expenditure is being made in the maritimes for a new laboratory which it is hoped will be opened in October of this year. I am confident that that regional laboratory will make a decided contribution to the economy of Nova Scotia.


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: I did not
hear the question asked by the hon. member for Cumberland, but I heard the reply of the minister in reference to the maritimes. I should like to ask a question along that line. Is there a possibility of a regional laboratory being built in Newfoundland, or is there any work being carried on there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The purpose of the maritime regional laboratory was to serve Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. There is a regional laboratory in the maritimes which will be opened this October; there is a regional laboratory for the prairies, and there is a regional laboratory on the Pacific coast.


William Joseph Browne: They deal with problems that will be helpful to Newfoundland?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Percy Chapman Black: Will this laboratory be carried on as part of the operations of Dalhousie university?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Atomic energy control board-
456. Operation and maintenance, $6,113,530.
Mr. Knowles:: May I ask the minister
whether there is any revenue in connection with this project which might be regarded as an offset of this expenditure?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a substantial revenue item, but I would rather not discuss it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian Arsenals Limited-
458. Administration and operation of Canadian Arsenals Limited, $2,900,000.
James MacKerras Macdonnell: Will the
minister explain the figure of $1,300,000 which is indicated as not required for 1950-51?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Last year the estimates contained an appropriation of $2,900,000 for the operation of the dominion arsenals. The arsenals did not require that appropriation. They actually operated at a profit of about $2,500,000; in other words, the sales of products from the arsenals exceeded the operating costs of the arsenals by about $2,500,000. That was not a normal situation, in that there were certain wartime stocks of raw


materials that were being used up. The surplus stocks in the arsenals were not taken into War Assets Corporation and re-issued; they were left with the arsenals to liquidate, so that the profit of $2,500,000 from the operation of the arsenals is not a normal profit. However, an effort is made to operate the arsenals at least on a break-even basis, and the item that we are asking parliament to vote today is an insurance item rather than an item that will necessarily be expended.


James MacKerras Macdonnell: This is one of the cases where the minister's miraculous forecasting worked out. Seriously speaking, it does not look as if it had been a budget at all last year. As the situation worked out, there was a difference of several millions between what was estimated and what was needed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am neither a prophet nor a seer. I could not foretell that India, Pakistan, Israel and a few distant countries would come in with large orders for munitions. Had we relied upon our own requirements of munitions for the armed services we would have required the $2,900,000. That is the cost of maintaining the arsenals in a stand-by condition, if there is no work in progress.


Mr. Hodgson:: I should like to thank the minister for a note he sent me some time ago concerning the arsenal at Lindsay. He said the government would keep it running. The payroll means a good deal to that town. When I saw that this amount of $1,300,000 was not required I wondered if it had anything to do with that plant, but the minister's answer to the hon. member for Greenwood would indicate that that is not so. Shall we continue in the future as we have in the past so far as this arsenal is concerned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I was asked about the item of $1,300,000 not required this year. That was to replace the fire loss at Quebec arsenal. The hon. member will recall that one of the buildings was destroyed by fire last year. That was a capital vote put in to replace the building, and that is why this amount is not required this year.
Lindsay arsenal has been made an important unit of our arsenals system. It handles the manufacturing of the large*r types of shell cases. Every effort is being made to keep it well supplied with work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
784. To reimburse the Canadian Commercial Corporation for expenses incurred in purchasing materials, supplies and equipment, etc., on behalf of the Department of National Defence, under chapter 51, statutes of 1917; further amount required, $31,736.
Howard Charles Green: Is the construction of 135 housing units at the camp of the Royal Canadian Engineers at Vedder Crossing, British Columbia, being done by Canadian Commercial Corporation or by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: When was the work undertaken?


Howard Charles Green: I think it is almost completed.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The chances are it was undertaken by Canadian Commercial Corporation. Within the last year it has been the practice to have practically all housing work for the services carried out by the housing corporation. Prior to that, small groups of houses were handled by Canadian Commercial Corporation.


Howard Charles Green: I have had complaints about the construction and the inspection. I suggest that the minister have one of his officers investigate the situation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
823. To provide, subject to the approval of treasury board, for advances to Canadian Arsenals Limited to increase the working capital fund for the operations of the company, $2,500,000.
Clarence Decatur Howe: This provides for an increase in the working capital of Canadian Arsenals Limited to the extent of $2,500,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
269. Departmental administration, $1,373,625.
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make one or two brief observations. What I shall say first will, I believe, reflect the views of all hon. members on both sides of the house. May I say to the minister, who has returned to the house after an illness, how pleased we are that he has made such a complete recovery and is with us again in his normal good humour and good health.
On previous occasions I have asked, and I repeat the request now, that a committee be set up to deal with the question of rural mail couriers in Canada. I realize of course that it is too late this session to take that action. I cannot understand why minister after minister has declined to do it.
There may be a disposition on the part of some hon. members to think that the problem of rural mail couriers is an isolated one and does not deserve the attention of,a committee of the house. Nothing could be more remote from the fact, because, as the minister knows, the whole network of mail distribution across the country is of great importance not only to the couriers themselves but to those whom they serve.
Supply-Post Office
The minister is no doubt aware that there have been many criticisms of the manner in which rural mail contracts are let, and I suggest that a committee of the house could study the question and make recommendations so that the mail couriers from coast to coast would get a fair break. Those of us who for many years have been served by the couriers know that their problems should receive more attention than they have received in the last few years. If there are problems, then they should be dealt with by a committee of the house.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Gordon Graydon: Prior to the noon recess I
was calling on the Postmaster General to set up a special committee at the next session of the house to deal with the question of mail delivery by rural mail couriers. I want to add to what I said then the observation that the long history of the rural mail couriers has not been a very happy one, nor is it one for which parliament or the government can take much credit. The rural mail courier renders splendid service. He is an intimate part of the rural life of Canada, but unfortunately the remuneration he has received has been so scandalously out of line with that paid to others performing similar public service that it has called for condemnation by many members on both sides of the house.
I am not going to say that there have not been patchwork reforms aimed at attempting to relieve the position of this public servant. Bonuses have been given and changes made, but the objection is that he is still working under an outmoded system which perpetuates the inequalities under which he labours year in and year out. The association which has the interests of rural mail couriers particularly at heart has called incessantly for a committee of the house to hear witnesses, gather information and allow the employees concerned and others interested in the service to come to Ottawa to present their point of view for the purpose of having the matter thoroughly studied, and if possible the policy revised so that the rural mail courier will get a square deal.
There is another important point that the committee would normally deal with. While the dwellers in rural areas for the most part are provided with service to their gates six days a week, and while city dwellers on paved streets in the larger towns and cities have mail delivery six days a week, there is a vast section of our population which does not come within either of those classifications. With

Supply-Post Office
the housing programs and the extension of residential areas outside of the larger cities and towns, many rural sections have now been transformed into suburban areas with scores of thousands of people living there who used to live in the cities and towns. The difficulty arises from this vast extension and the increase in population in the suburban parts of the country.
In many instances these areas are too thickly populated for the ordinary rural mail route, yet they do not qualify under the regulations for city postal delivery service. I have been wondering what can be done in cases of that kind. I know that the Post Office Department has been making attempts to alleviate the condition. At this point I should like to say that in the representations I make from time to time to the department-and I am sure this is true of other members of the house-I have been met with courtesy and co-operation on the part of the Post Office Department in reference to these urgent and vital problems.
As I see it, the difficulty is that what is needed is a brand new policy as to suburban mail delivery. With a view to being of some assistance to the committee and the department I wrote last November to the Postmaster General of the United States. As a matter of interest and information I want to put on record the letter I received from Mr. Donaldson, their Postmaster General, dated November 10, 1949. It reads:
Dear Mr. Graydon:
This will acknowledge your letter of November 2, 1949, inquiring about the type of service rendered by this department to suburban districts throughout the United States. This department maintains rural delivery service on 32,556 rural routes which serve not only the farm areas of the country but cover many of the highways and roads in the suburban areas of our cities and towns.
When the population in such areas, particularly those adjacent to large cities, becomes congested to the extent that rural delivery service is no longer feasible either from the standpoint of mail volume or frequency of stops, such territory is transferred to the city delivery service and maintained by carriers who are provided with vehicles. This service is provided in territory adjacent to' the well developed city areas but in which sidewalks and other city improvements have not been provided. Where government-owned vehicles are available in postal units that equipment is used and in other cases where the government-owned trucks are not available, the carrier serving such a route is granted an allowance under contract for providing a privately-owned vehicle.
I am sure you understand that under our laws and regulations we maintain city .delivery service in about 4,400 cities where the delivery work is accomplished by carriers on foot. This service is maintained in cities under authority of law which requires that such service be maintained at every incorporated city, village, or borough containing a population of 50,000 within its corporate limits, and may be established at every place containing a population of not less than 10,000 within its cor-
IMr. Graydon.]
porate limits, or at any post office which produces a gross revenue of not less than $10,000 per annum.
The department follows a policy of withholding the establishment of city delivery service, either by foot carrier or mounted carrier, in communities having less than 2,500 population, even though the receipts of the office meet the minimum requirements of $10,000. Carriers in the rural delivery service sell stamps, accept parcels for mailing, register mail for the senders, and also accept applications and money for the purchase of money orders. City delivery carriers, whether on foot delivery routes or mounted routes, do not render such service to the patrons.
With every good wish, X am,
Sincerely yours,
J. M. Donaldson Postmaster General
As the minister will see from this letter, the problem of suburban mail delivery has been tackled with vigour and considerable effectiveness by the Post Office Department at Washington. If the Postmaster General would go into the southern end of my riding, or the suburban portions of other ridings, he would see a striking example of inconvenience and inefficiency with respect to mail delivery. That inconvenience and inefficiency are not occasioned by the quality of the service the rural mail courier tries to perform; they result from the fact that the system is not right. At one point in my own riding where there are perhaps fifty or sixty mail boxes, the last report I had indicated that the mail courier had no less than 465 stopping points. In addition we must remember that the danger on the highway is very great. In some suburban areas you can see almost a forest of mail boxes, extending perhaps a hundred yards along the highway. These involve considerable danger, not only because the mail vehicle has to stop so often on the highway, but also because many children have to cross the highway in order to collect the mail, having come a considerable distance from their homes in order to do so. Only this morning I had a letter from one of my constituents who said that having left Toronto and come to my riding to live, the nearest point at which he can get mail is a mile and a half away; and that situation could be duplicated thousands of times all across the dominion.	,
I suggest to the minister that this problem has assumed most serious proportions, and that it is daily becoming more aggravated because the building program is going ahead rapidly. Every time a new house is built the problem becomes worse. It seems to me that the whole matter of rural mail delivery, including the letting of contracts and the very low salaries which in the past have been paid rural mail couriers, ought to be dealt with by a parliamentary committee. The rural mail problem has never been given a

real going over by a committee of this house, though we have dealt with many other things that no doubt were important. Let us not forget, however, that these are the things that touch the home life of every rural community in Canada. We cannot simply sit here and discuss in a general way, toward the end of the session, matters so important in the lives of the people in our rural communities, and let it go at that. From time to time we have had committees to deal with matters which in my opinion have not affected the rural life of this country to anything like the extent it is affected by our mail delivery, and I believe it is time we gave that consideration to this problem.
Today I rose only to make what I hope have been constructive suggestions, because I do not believe there is any point in trying to be unduly critical of anyone in connection with this matter. It is a situation that has developed over the years. .If criticism should be offered, I think it would be that the department has not pursued the matter with the vigour which I believe our expanding suburban population have a right to expect.
I ask the minister, as I have asked him before and as I hope I do not have to ask him again, to set up a committee to deal with postal delivery service in Canada, a matter which affects the lives', the happiness, the convenience and the accommodation of people in the rural portions of this country.


Mr. Pouliot:: Before the minister replies I should like to say that I agree with what the hon. member for Peel has said, with the exception of his conclusion.
At the outset the hon. member made a courteous reference to the return of the minister. Everyone is pleased that he has returned in good health and is able to carry on the heavy work of his department. During his absence the acting minister was the Solicitor General, who did a very good job.
I am very much interested in the matter of rural mail delivery, and most of the remarks of the hon. member for Peel were to the point. It is my experience that rural mail delivery renders a great service to rural communities, but sometimes a contractor makes a low bid in order to obtain a government contract, which he frames and puts in his drawing room as though it were a Ph.D. degree or something of the sort. They put in the lowest bids, in the hope that their members of parliament will see to it later that the amounts stipulated in the contracts are increased. They want the contracts under any conditions; and those who make bids that are too low can blame no one but themselves if they are not well paid.
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On the other hand it very often happens that the officials of the department are stingy in dealing with the tenders. They do not know the geographical conditions; they do not know whether there are steep hills or whether the road is level, and they have established an average which is the same for a mountainous countryside as for a plain. The member of parliament is the one who knows best, and his suggestions as to a fair price for a service should be listened to. In the past it was the custom of the officials to ask tenderers to reduce their prices. In my humble view, when a tender is called for there should be no bargaining afterward. The contract should be given to the lowest tenderer, if he has the equipment with which to do the work. Sometimes there is some merchandising, some auctioneering by the officials of the communications branch. They think the tender is too high, and they ask him to bring it down and down until it reaches a point where it is no longer a paying proposition. In my humble opinion a man who bids for a mail contract should be allowed enough to pay him a legitimate salary, and to cover his expenses. No man is supposed to make a sacrifice to carry the mail anywhere in Canada. I would be interested in knowing the average price per mile paid to mail carriers in each province in Canada. I presume that in Quebec it is lower than anywhere else.


An hon. Member:: Higher.


Jean-François Pouliot: No; I may be wrong, but it is my contention that the price the Post Office Department accepts in the province of Quebec is lower than anywhere else. I well remember the fight I had to try to have a fair price paid for mail service in a mountainous countryside. I am glad to tell the minister that conditions are now much better than they were under his predecessor. My post office, and rural route No. 5, are not so thick and heavy as they were under his illustrious predecessor. I had to write letter after letter to try to get an answer, and it was always the same. If the present incumbent were not in charge of the post office, I would vote to reduce the estimate to $1 because I had no satisfaction before he took charge. Conditions have improved, and I thank the minister for that.
I should like to ask the minister when mail delivery service will be established in the city of Riviere du Loup. I hope it will be done soon. Yesterday I was told that an order in council was required for that purpose. Everyone is in favour of it, and I expect the minister to establish it at the earliest possible opportunity. I should also like him to establish a rural route in the

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parish of St. Patrick, Riviere du Loup, to the east of the present post office, to serve that rural community. It could be easily done. In the first place the petition was not understood but I hope it is now, and the farmers who live in that part of my constituency will enjoy rural mail delivery service in the near future. I thank the minister for having established many new rural routes in my constituency. I do not understand why at times it is so difficult to have these routes established. Naturally, there are geographical difficulties, and there may be some argument about the price asked, or there may be some divergence of opinion in the community, but as a rule all the people who do business want to have their mail as soon as possible. It is not the same today as it was fifty years ago. The amount of mail has increased, and it makes quite a difference to the rural mail carrier. He has to buy a bigger truck to handle all the material, and that means greater expense.
In conclusion, my hon. friend asked for the establishment of a committee to study the case of the rural mail carrier. I do not think that is necessary at all, and I shall tell him why. It is for this reason I wanted to speak before the minister. During the war we established a system of adjustments for mail carriers who had more mail, more parcels, newspapers and so on, to carry. By virtue of an act that was passed by parliament, a bonus was allowed. The minister dealt with the mail carriers fairly; even the predecessor to the present minister was quite fair, but more argument was needed to get results from him. The matter was handled fairly without any political partisanship, and an adjustment was made so that the mail carriers would have a fair deal. We have the example of the past, and judging by the revenues of the Post Office Department, which are as large as they were during the war, we have as much mail passing through the office as we had during the war. If that legislation was good during the war, because of the increase in correspondence at that time, I do not see why the same legislation is not used again. This would ensure that the mail carrier who has more mail to carry now than he had before would have an opportunity for righting the wrong he is suffering. I am in favour of a fair deal. After that legislation is re-enacted we might adopt the suggestion of the member for Peel. If that legislation did not work so well in the future as it has in the past, then we might have a committee of the house to study the matter.
I have been here longer than my hon. friend. I remember a time when Mr. Anderson was the superintendent of mail service, and there was a fellow who was asking the
.[Mr. Pouliot.l
mail couriers to contribute some money for an organization to increase the price paid to mail couriers. It was pure humbug, and I do not know what happened to the fellow but nothing was done to help the mail couriers until remedial legislation was introduced. This legislation gave everyone a fair chance. In conclusion, sir, I should like to say to my hon. friend that I am not in favour of a committee. We have enough committees. We have committees for this and that. The members are never in the house because they are sitting on committees. They are listening to what this expert says. We do not need an expert. When the minister suggested that the officials of the department should explain the functions of the Post Office Department to hon. members, I told him we did not need those officials to give lectures to members of parliament. We know what is going on in the Post Office Department. The only thing the minister needs to do is to tell his officials that they are to be fair with the members of parliament, to respect them and not inaugurate any new, complicated system for efficiency. Some foolish people think only of efficiency. If I want this to be sent to the member across the way, I call a page and he takes it there. An efficient method would be scientific. It would be a new world. Do not pay any attention to the new world. I say that to the minister. Do not pay any attention to superefficiency: just pay attention to efficiency. That is enough for me and I think it is enough for everybody.


Hon. Edouard Rinfret (Postmaster General):: At this stage, Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank the hon. member for Peel and the hon. member for Temiscouata for their kind words. The committee may be sure that I am pleased to bd back. As a matter of fact, if I had listened only to myself I would have been back much e rlier because I was eager to be here. But unfortunately there was a watchdog, in this case my doctor, who prevented me from being here sooner. I wish to thank the Solicitor General for the wonderful work he did while I was away. It has even been suggested to me that I should have stayed away a little longer because people were getting along with him so well. At this stage, Mr. Chairman, I should like to put on the record certain facts dealing with the post office and its activities during the year. This is the first time that the gross postal revenues of the postal service have exceeded $100 million. The figure for the fiscal year 1949-50 is $101,277,435, an alltime high. Part of the increase is accounted for by the fact that this is the first fiscal year in which the revenues have been included from Newfoundland. The actual amount of revenue from that province during

the fiscal year was $1,023,693 and the expenditures on postal service for the same period was $1,532,363. The estimates for the fiscal year 1950-51 which are now presented provide for an increase of $2,087,780 over the fiscal year which ended on March 31.
The main item of increase is for salaries and allowances of employees which amount to $3,455,014. This increase is due in part to additional employees necessary to give service and also to increases in salary rates recommended by the civil service commission and approved by the governor in council. On other items there is a decrease in the amount asked for. During the past year 50 post offices have been raised from a revenue to a staff post office rank. This means that staffs of offices are put on a more stable basis. The employees are classified as civil servants and will enjoy civil service rates of pay and be eligible for the benefits of superannuation.
Letter carrier delivery service has been inaugurated at five points during the fiscal year 1949-50 and door-to-door delivery is in contemplation at approximately 13 different points during the present fiscal year. There has been a decided improvement in the transportation of international mails. This is due in great part to the return to the merchant service of ships which were formerly on war service which have now been reconditioned and placed back into service and also a number of entirely new vessels have been added.
Steady progress has been made in the field of international air mail. At the present time almost half the letter mail between Canada and Great Britain travels by air. This volume of mail which amounts to approximately 240,000 pounds annually is transported almost entirely by Trans-Canada Air Lines. There has been a sharp reduction in the number of parcels sent to Great Britain and other European countries. This reduction is almost entirely in the food parcel category. In 1947 the weight of parcel post carried was 27 million pounds. In the calendar year 1949 the weight carried was 22 million pounds, a reduction of 5 million pounds. This is due in great part to improvement in living conditions in European countries and also to the establishment of special agencies whose mission it is to dispatch food and other supplies to those countries where these necessities are in short supply.
Of the total estimates presented amounting to $85,674,757, 55-96 per cent, or in figures $47,946,100, is for the payment of salaries and allowances. The next large item is for transportation which accounts for 38-42 per cent
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or a figure of $32,910,747; 94-38 per cent of the post office expenditures being for salaries and transportation. Supplies, equipment and miscellaneous expenditures make up the balance.
In the realm of transportation there does not seem to be any immediate prospect of price reduction. As a matter of fact, the railway companies have made a request for a drastic increase in mail pay rates. The department feels that the increase requested is excessive and the matter is now under consideration. Pending final decision, payments are being made to the railways at the former rates. Any substantial increases granted will turn the small surplus for the fiscal year 1949-50 into a deficit. We have continued to give air mail service in Canada on an all-up basis. The volume of such traffic increased gradually within the year but is still within the estimates on which the experimental rates of payment were calculated. Payment to Trans-Canada Air Lines for this transportation continues to be made on the experimental basis pending agreement at a regular contract rate. We are hoping that the company will be able to agree to rates which will permit the continuance of the all-up scheme as a permanent feature.
The powers to grant supplemental payments to mail contractors ended on March 31, 1949. Supplements granted prior to that date have been continued for the term of the respective contracts. New contracts established as a result of tenders continue at fairly high rates, and there is no visible sign of any decrease in prices.
The money order and savings bank service continues to grow. During the fiscal year ended March 31, 1950, the number of money orders issued and paid shows an increase of 2-35 per cent over the previous fiscal year. There likewise has been an increase in the number of savings bank deposits.
In the realm of new service, consideration has been given to the establishment of an air mail service for parcel post and printed matter, but investigations so far indicate that there is not sufficient demand to justify such a service in the domestic field. The same situation applies in the international sphere. However, the situation is one which is being closely watched and when it is felt that worth-while advantages would be gained the service will be introduced.
In 1949 a departmental committee was established to examine all printed forms and other types of stationery used in the department. This committee has met and still meets regularly and, ns a result of its operations,

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there has been a sharp decrease in the number of forms used, which has not only added to the efficient operation of the service but has resulted in worth-while economies.
The department has continued its program of training employees and arranging exchanges between the operating and headquarters services with beneficial results. We have also placed at the service of the mailing public a group of public relations officers who not only explain the facilities which the department offers but help the various mailers with their individual postal problems.
We are continually studying ways and means of improving service and effecting economies. There is under consideration at the present time the experimental installation of a mechanical sorting machine. This machine has been used effectively in other administrations, and we feel it can be adapted to the Canadian service with savings in manpower and improved working conditions.
The . improvements so far made have increased the output of each employee by approximately 6-6 per cent over the last five years.
The growth of the service to its present structure with an increase in postal revenue, year by year, to an all-time high of $101,277,435.43, has always been marked by a judicious combination of the best in traditional postal experience and the adoption of new ideas and modern procedure in its administration and organization. The result is that today the Canadian postal service ranks with the best to be found in any country in the world.
During the fiscal year 1949-50 its activities were as follows: it carried 1,365,492,384 letters and postcards; 612,000,000 newspapers; 790,912,000 pieces of printed matter. Through its money order system it handled $479 million -I am leaving out the thousands-in money order transactions.


Gordon Graydon: How many people have you counting these letters?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It is automatic. It encouraged thrift in its savings bank system to the extent of $38,754,000. It carried goods to the extent of 69,201,000 parcels; it operated an insurance system insuring 225,000 parcels. In its c.o.d. system it handled over 8,364,000 c.o.d. articles. It provided a registration system handling 18,500,000 orders. It gave rural delivery to 368,758 rural boxholders. It operated 57 air mail services with a total route mileage of 29,095 miles.
The number of employees required to operate and maintain the Canadian postal
[Mr. Kir.fret.J
service at its present high level of efficiency is approximately 46,000, which is approximately one-third of the civil servants serving the country. This covers staffs at headquarters in Ottawa, the operating service in the field, the revenue postmasters and their assistants, and mail contractors.
This is a brief statement of what has been accomplished during the past fiscal year. I cannot let this occasion go by without expressing my appreciation of the loyal and efficient service given by the employees of the department generally in their desire to continue to make the postal service of Canada the best of all.
On the question of mail couriers, the hon. member for Peel said that we pay salaries scandalously out of proportion to other salaries. The first remark I would make is that it is not a salary because all rural mails are carried on tender. If I may answer the hon. member for Temiscouata at the same time, I would say that the very considerations that he himself gave with reference to the various hills or conditions of the land make it practically impossible for us in the department to fix a uniform salary throughout Canada, or even to establish any sort of zone where salaries could be paid. We feel -and I think we are correct in this assertion -that the rural couriers themselves when they are making their tenders know the conditions of their land much better than anybody else, and that that should determine the prices that should be paid per mile in the various areas.
In this connection I might say that the average price per mile paid to the rural mail couriers since 1939 has increased by 65 5 per cent, which I think corresponds to the increase in the cost of living, and also corresponds to the increase that has been given other civil servants.


Gordon Graydon: The minister thinks they are getting enough?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am not in a position to answer that. They themselves fix the amount that they are to receive, because they are the ones who make the tenders. If at the present time a courier feels that he is not receiving sufficient for the services he is performing he has the right under his contract to give three months' notice to the department, and the department will have to call for tenders. If the amount that is actually paid is not met by a smaller tender, or if the tenders for similar service are higher, the department will have to accept the higher tender unless they can get a reduction in it.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister this one question? Why should they be singled

out as the only branch of the public service that must have their jobs given by tender?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It is not a job that they are performing; it is a contract that they have with the government. I know of no contract that is given by the government except by tender. In 1939 the average cost per mile per annum-that is a daily frequency-was $32.35. In 1950 it had gone up to $53.55, which, as I have just said, equals an increase of 65.5 per cent. May I at this time answer the hon. member for Temiscouata. The price per mile throughout Canada is as follows. Unfortunately I cannot give him the information by provinces, but I will give it to him by district. In Vancouver the average cost per mile, based on a service of six times per week, was $71.53, which represented a cost per box per annum of $7.43. As I continue I shall give the two figures that represent these two things. At Edmonton, $60.41, and $14.18; Calgary, $56.48 and $14.96; Saskatoon, $60.02 and $16.38; Moose Jaw, $62.36 and $16.72; Winnipeg, $60.08, and $14.67; London, $52.27 and $13.21; Toronto, $54.49 and $12.84; North Bay, $57.92 and $19.27; Ottawa, $49.44 and $17.49; Montreal, $51.72 and $15.25; Quebec, $52.77 and $16.87; Saint John, $51.45 and $19.68; Halifax, $55.54 and $18.33 and Charlottetown, $53.18 and $17.07. As I have already pointed out, that represents service to 368,758 rural box-holders. It represents a daily mileage of 101,452.5 miles.
On the question of rural mail, I know that my hon. friend is very much interested. We have a long-range plan that we are working on, but we feel that by putting it in operation too soon we would disrupt the service as it is at the present time.
We have more than 5,000 rural routes at the present time. Those must be permitted to operate, and we find it necessary to make changes from time to time.


Gordon Graydon: Is the minister considering inaugurating a system similar to that which has been introduced in the United States?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I was about to deal with that question. In the matter of suburban delivery one must always keep in mind density of population. I am not ready to follow all the practices in use in the United States, one of the chief reasons being that at the close of last year they showed a deficit of $551 million. I think therefore that if we were to put into operation all their practices-I shall not call them schemes-we might find ourselves in a bad financial position.
We are considering however the possibility of giving added service to suburban areas. We have our regulations which must be
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followed. The difficulty is that there is always a limit as to the points on the outside of villages, towns or cities, which can be served. At what point are we to stop? If we stop at one place we will find some person perhaps only 75 or 100 yards farther on who would want the service. If we agree to give that service, then we will find another one perhaps another hundred yards farther on who will expect to have delivery.
For these reasons standards have been established. The distance, for two deliveries per day, is up to twenty yards; for one delivery it is between twenty and forty yards; and, generally speaking, over forty yards delivery is not warranted. That is the standard upon which we have based our operations.


Gordon Graydon: But that is a city rather than a suburban delivery service.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As a city grows the suburban areas are taken in. As I said earlier, we are considering another plan at the present time. However, it has not yet been advanced to the stage where I can give any particulars with respect to it. This very point has been considered, because we feel that this may be one place where our service is not quite equal to our usual standard.
The hon. member for Temiscouata asked when the service in Riviere du Loup is to be inaugurated. That is one point where it is possible a service may be established this year. In order to obtain letter carrier service we have established certain standards. The first of these is that there must be at least two thousand points of call, and the postal revenue collected must be more than $35,000. Walking conditions must be good, and there are certain other conditions which must be complied with. As soon as the Various centres on the verge of becoming letter carrier centres meet these conditions we will give the service to them.
The hon. member for Temiscouata also referred to the bonus which, until March 31 of last year, was given under the legislation. To my mind this legislation was tantamount to giving to the Postmaster General complete discretion in respect of each of the rural contracts in this country. I do not believe that is what the House of Commons would want.
When about fifty years ago the system was established of giving full discretion to the Postmaster General in all mail contracts below $200, that represented about 87-6 per cent of the contracts. Today, however, that $200 represents only 17-6 per cent of the contracts. That legislation under which the Postmaster General was given full discretion gave him authority, not only over the 17 6 per cent,

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but over 100 per cent of the contracts. I am sure hon. members would not be prepared to accept that.


Gordon Graydon: When the bonus system was inaugurated one of the weaknesses was that, unless a rural mail courier knew about the legislation and made application for the benefits thereunder, he was forgotten. In my own constituency I wrote to all the rural mail couriers telling them about the legislation, and in this manner they were informed. I am not sure that was done throughout the country, however. There must have been hundreds of rural mail couriers who did not know they were entitled to a bonus until it was too late for them to get it. I am sure that if the minister looks at the records he will find that the great proportion of rural mail couriers across the country were denied the right to the bonus because it was not made general. Why it was not made general, or why they were not notified with respect to it, I cannot say.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It was fully publicized at the time.


Gordon Graydon: All people do not read the
same newspapers.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It was in all the papers.


Mr. Fleming:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to open my remarks this afternoon in the same way as did the hon. member for Peel prior to the noon adjournment, by expressing my personal pleasure at seeing the Postmaster General back in his place in the house, and looking the picture of health. It is a pleasure indeed to welcome him back to his post and to his duties.
The Postmaster General has just concluded his remarks on one subject concerning the administration of his department by what I thought were commendable references to the undesirability of extended discretionary authority in him as Postmaster General. I could not ask for a better theme for the few remarks I am about to make.
May I say at the outset that I am directing my remarks to the principle involved in a subject that has been dealt with on several occasions during the present session. One recalls the discussions on April 18, May 9, May 16 and May 24. I participated in the discussions on two of those occasions. Today I do hot propose to traverse the ground covered on those occasions, but so far as possible shall focus attention on the principle involved in the exercise by the Postmaster General or officials of his department of powers conferred upon the Postmaster General by section 7 of the Post Office Act.
We are told that the powers conferred by this section upon the Postmaster General go

back to 1889 in their origin, that they have not been changed since, and that the powers thus conferred are widely used. We are told, for instance, that there are about 1,100 orders outstanding at the present time denying the use of the mails to persons in Canada. Only yesterday an instance was brought to our attention where this power was exercised in the case of the Calgary Stampeders, where they and certain persons associated with them have been denied the use of the mails.
The powers conferred by section 7 Cd) empower the Postmaster General, subject to the provisions of the act, to make regulations declaring what shall and what shall not be deemed to be mailable matter for the purposes of the act. Then there are certain direct instances cited and we have these important words:
. . . and for marking on the covering of letters, circulars or other mailable matter suspected to concern illegal lotteries, so-called gift concerts, or other illegal enterprises of like character, offering prizes, or concerning schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences, whether such letters, circulars or other mailable matter are addressed to or received by mail from places within or without Canada, a warning that they are suspected to be of a fraudulent character and for returning such letters, circulars or other mailable matter to the senders.
I invite the attention of the committee to one fact that seems to me to be of fundamental importance in the interpretation of this section. It is the emphasis placed upon the words "fraud" and "fraudulent". The section does not simply stop with a reference to such things as illegal lotteries and so-called gift concerts. It goes on to refer to "other illegal enterprises of like character, offering prizes, or concerning schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences." In the concluding words it is made clear that this applies "whether the letters, circulars or other mailable matter are addressed to or received by mail from places within or without Canada," and that power is given to attach a warning that these are suspected to be of a fraudulent character. It is quite clear, sir, that the power is intended to be confined to use in cases where fraud exists or is, on reasonable grounds, suspected to exist, and in the latter case a warning that the contents are suspected to be of a fraudulent character may be given by the marking of certain words on the envelope.
It seems to me that in the interpretation of this power, and of regulations 204 and 206 passed under the authority of the act, sight has been lost of the fact that it is only in cases where fraud exists, or the scheme that is suspected is of a fraudulent character or designed to deceive or defraud the public for

the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences, that the power was intended to permit refusal of the use of the mails to any person. Section 204 of the regulations passed under the act largely repeats the language I have just read from section 7(d). Again the emphasis is placed upon the word "fraudulent". The regulation adds:
... it is hereby declared that no letters, packet, parcel, newspaper, book or other thing, sent or sought to be sent through the post office by or on behalf of or to or on behalf of such person shall be deemed mailable matter.
Section 206 of the regulations is declaratory in its nature. It provides:
The Postmaster General has power, under the statute, to mark or cause to be marked upon the covers of letters, circulars or other mail matter suspected to concern schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences, whether such letters, circulars or other mail matter are addressed to or received by mail from places within or without Canada, "suspected to be of a fraudulent character"-
That quotation is taken from the words of section 7(d). Then it proceeds:
-and to return such letters, circulars or other mail matter to the senders.
The Postmaster General's department has attempted to exercise this power in cases where no fraud existed or could by any stretch of the imagination be suspected. The case I referred to on an earlier occasion was one in which the Leaside Lions club, a highly reputable organization, was conducting a raffle as part of a money-rais'ing effort to assist the Manitoba flood relief fund. On that occasion the Postmaster General's department, regardless of the worthiness of the cause, regardless of the fact that the police in the area had been made aware of the fact that lucky number prizes were being offered in this way and that tickets were being sold, stepped in and denied the use of the mails to the club and to the chairman of the committee in charge of the raffle for the club. The ban affected -his personal mail as well as mail received by him on behalf of the club. The Post Office went so far as to return mail in which his own pay cheque was being received from his employer.


Gordon Graydon: Shame.


Donald Methuen Fleming: When the power is exercised or attempted to be exercised in a case of that kind, where there can be not even the slightest suspicion attached to those concerned and no suggestion whatsoever of the scheme being fraudulent or intended to deceive the public, then I think two facts are laid bare before the house. The first is that the Postmaster General's department is undertaking to use this power in cases where the statute 55946-266
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does not authorize it, and in the second' place, this legislation must be brought under review by the House of Commons.
We have courts to deal with offences against the criminal law. We have a considerable volume of criminal law in this country. Surely it is not the intention of the House of Commons, in carrying forward on the statute books the Criminal Code and legislation of a similar nature, to leave it to a department to step in and create criminal law, or to set itself up as a body that assumes the function of filling in any gaps that may have been left in the criminal law enacted by the parliament of Canada. That never was and never could have been the intention of parliament in 1889 in enacting section 7(d) of the act. If there are gaps in the criminal law today it is the duty of the government, and particularly of the Minister of Justice, to bring legislation before the house to be enacted for the purpose of filling the gaps in the criminal law, but it should not be left to officials of a department to create law or to take upon themselves the function of the parliament of Canada.
On the question of enforcement, with all respect to the officials of the Department of the Postmaster General, it seems to me that in the case I mentioned-and there must be many others like it such as that of the Calgary Stampeders mentioned yesterday- the matter of law enforcement could very well be left to the law enforcement officers of the area concerned. There are efficient law enforcement authorities in these areas without requiring some special supplement by officials at Ottawa in a department whose principal concern is not the enforcement of the criminal law. The instances I have cited cannot be said to be in any way similar to the case conjured up by the Minister of Justice on a previous occasion during the present session where the offence involved the purchase and sale of securities and he contended it was not covered by the provincial law. Here is a situation which may have been a lottery but certainly could not be said to involve any wilfully illegal lottery, and by no further stretch of the imagination could be said to involve any attempt to deceive or defraud the public.
I think great care must be taken by the post office authorities in lottery cases. I do not propose here today to discuss whether lotteries are right or wrong. I suspect that the view I entertain on the subject of lotteries per se would not be any broader than the view of the Postmaster General, but not every lottery is illegal under the Criminal Code. Section 236 of the Criminal Code, while making certain games of chance and lotteries illegal and attaching penalties for

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breaches of the law, goes on in subsection 6 to provide that the section does not apply to a considerable list of things, five in all, which otherwise obviously would fall within the definition appearing earlier in the section; and included in that list is the following:
6. This section does not apply to
(b) raffles for prizes of small value at any bazaar held for any charitable or religious object, if permission to hold the same has been obtained from the city or other municipal council, or from the mayor, reeve or other chief officer of the city, town or other municipality, wherein such bazaar is held, and the articles raffled for thereat have first been offered for sale and none of them are of a value exceeding fifty dollars.
I do not say that in the case of the raffle conducted by the Leaside Lions club the prize was not worth more than $50, but I cite this section of the act to lay emphasis upon the fact that not every lottery is illegal under the Criminal Code, and that in any case not every illegal lottery gives the minister occasion to exercise power under section 7 (d) of the Post Office Act. It is only in cases where it is part of a scheme to defraud or deceive the public for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences that power is given to ban the use of mails.
On an earlier occasion during this session we heard an interesting discussion by the Minister of Justice with respect to the discretion conferred by this section upon the Postmaster General. I regret that the Minister of Justice is not here now, because I should have liked to address these remarks rather directly to him. He sought to place before the house the argument that this was not a power that could be exercised capriciously by the Postmaster General; that if his use of power was arbitrary or capricious it was open to any person aggrieved to resort to the courts in an action against the Postmaster General. I have read the case to which the Minister of Justice referred on that occasion in support of his argument. I cannot find that it lends any colour or justification to his argument. It is well established law, of course, that any public officer who exceeds the authority conferred by any act is liable to an action in the courts by any person aggrieved by that act, so far as it is not justified or authorized by statute; but that is very different from saying that if the Potsmaster General confines himself to his statutory powers, yet exercises those powers in a capricious or unreasonable way, any person can bring action against him. The decision referred to falls far short of laying down any such proposition. The case is Literary Recreations Limited v. Sauve and Murray, reported in 58 Canadian Criminal Cases at page 385. This was a decision in

1932 of the Court of Appeal of British Columbia, and the headnote reads:
Under the Post Office Act . . . and the regulations made thereunder, the Postmaster General of Canada has the right to determine what is "mailable matter" and has a discretion to prohibit the use of the mails for the sending of non-mailable matter, and his discretion is not open to review by a court.
One would have thought that was very clear, but if the Minister of Justice still persists in an unsound argument I invite his attention to the language used by Mr. Justice McPhillips at page 391, where the learned justice refers to parliament and deals with this very section 7(d) of the act and regulations 204 and 206. He had this to say:
The legislature having clothed the Postmaster General with these extreme powers-
I pause there to draw attention to this very apt description applied to these powers by the learned justice of appeal.
-but I have no doubt proper powers concerning the question of peace, order and good government -it is not within the province of a court of justice to say what is the reasonable use of the conferred powers granted by statute. That is to say tile discretion given by statute to the Postmaster General is an unfettered discretion to determine what shall and what shall not be deemed to be mailable matter.
In my humble submission the matter could not be put more clearly. The court there is saying that the discretion conferred upon the Postmaster General by section 7(d) is an unfettered discretion, and no court has the power to review the exercise of that discretion or to say whether it is reasonable or unreasonable. It is only when the Postmaster General goes completely outside those powers that any person aggrieved by his act has a right against him in the courts. So, Mr. Chairman, I submit to the committee that the argument addressed to the house on a recent occasion by the Minister of Justice was completely unsound.
I go on from that to this point. This discretion, being unfettered and not open to challenge or review in the courts, is so broad, especially having regard to the striking instances in which it has been exercised of late, that I earnestly submit that this house must assume responsibility for reviewing this legislation. If legislation of this kind is capable of such arbitrary use, if the use of the powers conferred under it is not subject to review by a court, then I submit it is high time this parliament qualified the powers conferred upon the Postmaster General by this act. No official of government, however reputable he may be, or however sound his judgment, has any right to possess powers as sweeping as these without any recourse on the part of those thereby affected to a court

or other body by way of review of his decisions. The rights of people as citizens are being freely interfered with. In the case to which I referred a reputable citizen of the community, engaged in charitable work out of which he was not receiving a cent but to which he was contributing a great deal of time and effort, has his personal mail stopped as well as the mail of the Leaside Lions club, in whose behalf he was engaged in this charitable work. I think it is high time this house took steps to see that this power is not left in the unfettered and untrammelled form in which it seems to exist today.
Therefore I repeat, Mr. Chairman, that the time has come when parliament must take the responsibility of limiting this power, making sure that it is not capable of being used in any case where fraud is not involved, and also that where the power is exercised it is subject to review in the courts in a speedy manner. In concluding his remarks on May 16, at page 2534 of Hansard, the minister said something that was very sensible. I believe many of us in this house hoped that the hon. gentleman would follow up the sound views and good intentions he expressed on that occasion by introducing legislation to give effect to them. These were his words:
I do admit, Mr. Speaker, that the remedy presently available to challenge an action-
That is to say, an action by the Postmaster General in the purported exercise of his power under section 7(d).
-if it happens to be arbitrary is a little difficult from the legal standpoint.
Now, it is something to wring a statement like that from the Minister of Justice on an occasion of this kind. He proceeds:
We have been quite frank with this house in saying that the present remedy is not very satisfactory. It may cause a legal delay . . .
May I interject again, sir, to point out that what the Minister of Justice was referring to as the "present remedy" is a remedy that exists only in cases where the Minister of Justice has gone beyond the powers conferred on him by the act. Even in those cases the remedy, according to the Minister of Justice, is admitted to be not very satisfactory. He continues:
It may cause a legal delay, and it may in that way create secondary effects upon the offending person which are out of all proportion to his deserts. The move which we have under consideration, therefore, is that of providing an appeal from the order, and not an obscure appeal or an appeal which will take a long period of time, but a summary appeal. Once an order had been made, the citizen offended could make a quick application to the courts and get the whole matter before a judge, with the power to bring In any relevant evidence which he could adduce in addition to that
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which the Postmaster General considered. Then the whole matter could come before the courts in such a way as to completely minimize the harm that would be done to an innocent person.
Mr. Chairman, where is the legislation designed to provide that summary appeal to the courts, the necessity for which was acknowledged by the Minister of Justice when he spoke in this house on May 16? We have waited hopefully for it, and we are now told, in these closing days of the session, that no more legislation is to be introduced at this session of parliament. It must be a matter of very grave regret, Mr. Chairman, on the part of all members of this house who dislike arbitrary powers, and dislike even more the exercise of arbitrary powers where they can be found to exist in the statute books. While the Minister of Justice and the government delay introducing legislation to provide a remedy, which the Minister of Justice admits to be so necessary, the arbitrary use of the power continues. The member for Calgary West has drawn to the attention of the house an incident this week illustrating the further use of this power under arbitrary circumstances. This points even more directly than ever to the necessity for action on the part of parliament to put an end to this arbitrary power; to remove the breadth of this power; and the necessity of providing that powers of this kind, as well as the arbitrary exercise of which they are capable, as we have seen in those cases, in the hands of the Postmaster General's department, are made subject to review by the courts.
In most cases the decision of a judge in the courts is subject to appeal. There are few cases in which we leave a matter to the decision of one man. Even judicial determinations in a judicial tribunal are subject to a right of appeal in all except a relatively few cases. Yet today, from the exercise by an official or the minister of the power conferred upon him by this section, there is no right of appeal. How long can this parliament tolerate the continuance of a situation of that kind, sir? I submit to this parliament that a remedy must be provided of the kind acknowledged by the Minister of Justice to be needed, and shown now by this further exercise of this arbitrary power in an irresponsible way to be so necessary at the present time that it can brook no more delay.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Mr. Chairman, I should like to answer the last part of the argument put forward by the member for Eglinton. I still have ringing in my ears the arguments that were put forward last week when the Indian

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Act was brought before this house. Practically every member on the other side of the house said that this late hour in the session was no time to present new legislation; yet today we are told that, even at this late hour in the session, we should introduce new legislation. There seems to be a direct contradiction in those statements. I was under the impression that this matter had been threshed out. The Minister of Justice presented the judicial position, and the Solicitor General, as the Acting Postmaster General, gave the circumstantial evidence in this case. I am not going to take the time of the house to review the whole question. I must say I think the member for Eglinton was very clever in presenting the argument he did, because he continually mixed up the question of lotteries with that of the brokers.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I did not say a word about brokers.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The whole argument was based on the action that was taken against the brokers.


Donald Methuen Fleming: No.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That was the whole argument, as I understood it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sorry that my friend was not here, and the whole house regrets his absence due to illness. Altogether there were three occasions involving the use of this power which have been discussed in the house. The first related to the question of the brokers; the second was an incident I brought up in connection with the denial of the use of the mails to the Leaside Lions club. I did. not say a word about brokers, Mr. Chairman, but I did speak about the denial of the use of the mails to the Leaside Lions club. The third matter to which reference was made was the denial of the use of the mails to the Calgary Stampeders. Those incidents have been touched upon in this house at this session. I did not mention the brokers today.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am sorry to contradict the member for Eglinton but when he cites the statement of the Minister of Justice at page 2534 of Hansard, in which the minister mentioned an appeal, the minister was dealing with the situation in regard to the brokers. If he did not intend to speak about the brokers' situation, I do not know why he referred to that statement by the Minister of Justice on the question.
The powers under the act are very precise. Section 7 of the act says:
The Postmaster General may, subject to the provisions of this act,
(d) make regulations . . . for marking on the covering of letters, circulars or other mailable matter suspected to concern illegal lotteries . . .

The member for Eglinton has given us the definition of what constitutes an illegal lottery according to the Criminal Code. A legal lottery is one in which the prizes offered are no more than $50; where it is for a charitable purpose; and where a permit has been obtained. When any one of these three conditions does not exist, that is where the prize is more than $50 or when the purpose is for other than charity, or when no permit has been obtained, it is an illegal lottery and has to be treated accordingly under section 7 (d). We do not stop the mails for any lottery which is legal. We have never stopped the mails in any such case. In the case of the Leaside Lions and the Stampeders, the prizes were for much more than $50 and therefore did not come within the exceptions the hon. member has mentioned.
I continue to read from section 7 (d):
. . . so-called gift concerts, or other illegal enterprises of like character, offering prizes, or concerning schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences, ...
As hon. members can see, section 7 (d) gives the Postmaster General authority to make regulations, and in this connection


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister permit a question?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Yes, but before that I should like to pay a compliment to the member from Eglinton. I should like to compliment him and the others who have brought this matter before the house for giving the public in general throughout Canada the possibility of knowing what the postal regulations are, how rigid they are and, with the idea of saving quite a lot of money in publicity, telling the various people who would like to put in schemes like that through the mails that they have no chance of passing through.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thank the minister for his remarks. From his closing remarks I was not clear whether he interprets section 7 (d) as giving him power to deny the use of the mails in the case of "illegal lotteries", period. I think it is quite clear that the words "illegal lotteries" are qualified by the following words:
. . . concerning schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences . . .
I think that is quite clear.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The context reads:
... to concern illegal lotteries, so-called gift concerts, or other illegal enterprises . . .
The word "or" I suppose should have been put in after every one of those things, but the context I think is clear. If I may continue-


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does the minister not agree that the following words:
. . . concerning schemes devised or Intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences . . .
qualify the words "illegal lotteries"?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am sorry, but I have to disagree with that interpretation. As a matter of fact, the interpretation that the department has had from prominent solicitors also disagrees with what my hon. and learned friend wishes to convey at this time.
I may say that on this question of the broker-dealers there was a long discussion while I was away and there has been some discussion since I came back. The discussion that took place since I have been back did not take place in this chamber. I had occasion, with the Minister of Justice, to meet the representative of the brokers' association and we discussed with Hon. Mr. McTague the various circumstances surrounding this matter. The Minister of Justice, in his letter of May 2 to Hon. Mr. McTague, indicated that if the broker-dealers organization wished to present a brief on any of the matters under the Post Office Act in which it has an interest, the government would be glad to give such representations most careful and thorough consideration.
The broker-dealers association accepted this offer and a brief was prepared which was presented on behalf of the association by Hon. C. P. McTague on June 12. The Minister of Justice and the Postmaster General represented the government.
As a result of the ensuing discussion, it was agreed that in future, where complaints or information indicated that the mails were being used for fraudulent purposes, before prohibitory action was taken by the Postmaster General the cases would be reviewed by a special board appointed for that purpose. The alleged offenders would have an opportunity of appearing before the board, and would be allowed the services of counsel, if so desired. The board would also be permitted to have the advice of such technical and professional assistance as it might deem advisable. Evidence would be taken under oath.
The board would comprise the following officials: director of administration, chief post office inspector and the departmental solicitor. The place and time of the hearing would be determined by the Postmaster General, and due notice would be given to those concerned. Any costs or expenses in connection therewith incurred by the alleged offenders or those acting in their behalf would be borne entirely by them, irrespective of the eventual finding of the board.
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In cases where the board considers that there is evidence to the effect that the person or company has used the mails with intent to deceive or defraud, or to obtain money under false pretences, it shall so be reported to the Postmaster General who, if he finds that there is evidence satisfactory to him that the person or company has used the mails with intent to deceive or defraud, or to obtain money under false pretences, shall thereupon cause to be issued a fraud or prohibitory order denying the use of the mails to the offenders for any such improper purpose.
Initially, the board would be set up and the related procedure formulated and established under the powers vested in the Postmaster General by the Post Office Act, sections 7 (x) and 8.
At a future session the authority could be specifically included in the act itself which is due for revision. This would remove any doubt of the future continuance of the arrangement outlined, and preclude any modification thereof without consent of the house.
The board has been established, and any cases which are now being examined by the department, on the ground that the mails are being improperly used, will be submitted to that board for review in accordance with the procedure herein outlined.
I may say' that this matter has been fully discussed with Hon. Mr. McTague and he agreed as to the procedure that is outlined here, that this protects the interests of the brokers or the interested parties, or at least affords them the opportunity of being heard before the prohibitory order is issued.
Another matter that has been discussed with Mr. McTague is the question of appeal. It was recognized by Mr. McTague that the question of appeal was quite a tricky one and that it would require more time than we had before the end of the session in order to establish the proper procedure to be followed. However, we recognized by these instructions, which have already been given for the constitution of this board, the possibility of an appeal because we want the evidence to be taken under oath and in writing which would form the basis of any possible appeal to a tribunal or other board that might be decided on in the future.
We also discussed with Mr. McTague the possibility of launching criminal prosecutions. While I was away there was discussion in the house to the effect that we had no right to stop the mails of any broker without afterwards launching a prosecution. I have in my

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hand-and I am authorized by Mr. McTague to cite it-a letter dated June 16 which reads in part as follows:
I think we are prepared to admit the proposition that the Postmaster General should not be obliged to launch a criminal prosecution. That might be left to his discretion. Some definite provision, however, should be made that a person so convicted of misuse of the mails should have the right to apply to be allowed mail privileges again upon such terms, conditions and undertakings as may be imposed or required by the Postmaster General.
I was not here to hear the leader of the opposition make an objection as far as this was concerned. We were accused of putting a gun to the heads of these various persons in order to oblige them to sign certain guarantees. If it had been our intention to launch criminal proceedings, I would have said that that was the case. But I should like the leader of the opposition to tell me how it was possible to restore the mailing facilities to these persons unless we had certain guarantees. Surely he is not going to pretend that we were going to leave this stoppage of mail forever. Therefore some means had to be provided whereby we could restore the facilities, and this is exactly what Mr. McTague said: that some way should be discovered in order to return or to restore the mail facilities. We have asked those brokers to give us (a) an assurance to the satisfaction of the Postmaster General that in future the offensive literature in question will not be sent through the mails; (b) the company, the shares of which are being offered to the public, will undertake that no literature shall be sent through the mails in connection with the sale of the shares without its approval; (c) the broker dealer will give an unqualified assurance that he will not make any improper use of the mail in future in connection with the issues of shares.
One other matter we discussed with Mr. McTague was the definition of the word "fraud". He thought that on this proposed board there should be somebody properly qualified in the field of what constitutes fraud in the legal sense. When I spoke to Mr. McTague after this and told him that it was our intention to have the departmental solicitor acting as part of this board he was completely satisfied on this score. This is how the matter rests. The board has been constituted. Companies or individuals dealing with fraudulent ventures will receive a notice from the Postmaster General to appear on a certain day. They will have an opportunity to give the evidence that they wish to present. They will have their counsel and all the experts they need. The evidence will be taken in writing under oath, and the whole factum will be deposited before the Postmaster General for decision after they have been heard.
[Mr. Rinfret.l
As has been said by the Minister of Justice, it is the intention of the government, as soon as the matter has been finally determined, at the next session to ask for permission to constitute a body-it might be a tribunal, we have not decided yet-where an appeal could be launched against the decision of the Postmaster General.
What makes this question of procedure a little tricky is the question of lotteries. The procedure I have outlined touches only the broker-dealers organization. We cannot possibly adopt the same kind of formula procedure in the question of lotteries, because by delaying this procedure before this investigation board the person conducting the lottery could very well keep the mailing facilities until such time as the lottery had been concluded. We do not wish to be in that position, because we want to be able to fulfil the obligation that is ours of protecting the Canadian public.
Reference has been made to the sweeping powers that have been given to the Postmaster General. Well, I think reference should also be made to the very great responsibility that the Postmaster General has of protecting the whole population of Canada, thirteen million people, against some scheming people. I am not saying that every person against whom we stop the mail is a scheming person, but I do say that unless in the process of things we do catch some innocent people we shall soon be faced with a multitude of schemes that will put the population of Canada in very great danger.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I have no intention of entering into any discussion with respect to brokers, honest or dishonest. I agree with what the Postmaster General has said, namely, that where there is fraud we should have wide measures not only to limit but to destroy the means and methods by which these frauds are being perpetrated. But that is not what I have in my mind. On the streets of Ottawa and on the streets of every city in Canada there are motorcars publicly advertising and inviting you to buy a ticket. The sum of money that you pay varies between fifty cents and a dollar, in order that you might have the opportunity of telephoning your wife on a given day and saying: "Wife, you have got a new motor car."
At noon today I bought a ticket for a dollar. It is called "CHML Dream Home." It is for the city of Hamilton flood relief fund. His Worship Mayor Garnet Coulter of Winnipeg will present the dream home in Hamilton on Wednesday, July 5, 1950. This is for the Manitoba flood relief fund. No one is going to tell me that this department is ignorant of what is going on there, and it

has done nothing. Yet when a little football club in which I am interested, and from whom nobody makes any money, puts on a raffle they choose-I will repeat the words-this bureaucratic, arrogant, stupid method of enforcing the wishes of some servant somewhere down the line. What happened?' Every football club in Canada is doing exactly the same thing. It is common knowledge. We all know it. The minister can stand up and say: "I have a regulation here; they are in breach of it." Suppose we are. I do not think we are, but suppose we are. What has happened? Why are we singled out for punishment in this arbitrary and extraordinary manner?
Let him remember, and the people of his department remember, that there are provisions in the Criminal Code whereby persons connected with or conducting lotteries can be punished. Why do they now-I am not worrying about the legal right-in fact step in and usurp the function of every provincial court in the Dominion of Canada? -because our courts are provincial courts. Why do they do it? It is nothing but stupid- slipshod is too mild a word-it is nothing but a stupid move made by some bureaucrats in charge of the business. They need not tell me that the attorney general in any province has not acted. He does not need to act. Anybody who is aggrieved in the Dominion of Canada may sign and swear to an information when he sees wrongdoing, if he has courage enough to sign that information. But that is not the way this is done.
I have no doubt that the Stampeder football club are raffling a car. They have done it every year since I can remember. They have used the mails very, very little. I venture to say that all they have got is some returned tickets, and they have not got one ever sent out by the Stampeder football club. But then they go further. This is what they have done. Mr. T. L. Brook is a friend of mine. He is president of the Stampeder football club. He is a prominent businessman. He, as an individual, has done as much to promote the oil industry in that province as any other individual. They have stopped his personal mail until the 14th day of July. Talk about czarism; use any word you like! To treat Tom Brook in that way because he happens to be president of the second-best football club in Canada is, it seems to me, carrying the law a tremendous distance. You are making a laughing stock of it when you are carrying it to such absurd lengths. There has been some discussion most certainly in the newspapers, and probably in the house, although I am not sure about it, concerning our franking privilege. I know I am going to say something that will be unpopular with most hon. members. It is this: I personally
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am opposed to ourselves and those in the other place being granted the franking privilege, except for our correspondence. I believe that is essential and necessary. I am one however who is strongly opposed to a system whereby I, or someone else, making a speech in the House of Commons, am able to frank that by the thousand and send it all over the country.
Why do I say that? For this reason, principally: We happen to be those persons who have been elected and who, if we are but honest with ourselves, must admit that we are sending these words of wisdom to the electors so that we may be elected again.


Mr. Gibson:: They may be able to judge us from our words.


Arthur Leroy Smith: If you wrote about me and I wrote about you they would not frank anything.
Our opponents have not that opportunity; and to my mind this process of mailing tons of mail from this building is propaganda for ourselves and taking an unfair advantage of those persons who do not agree with us and who might in fact oppose us when the next election comes along.
As I said at the outset, that may not be a popular statement. However, I submit it; there it is, and I believe it. I want the Postmaster General to tell me this: Who in Canada are entitled either to frank or to send free mail? I know that is true of members of the House of Commons and of the other place. I know it is true of government departments. What I am particularly interested in is this little word in black print, "free", on the upper righthand corner of an envelope. I want a definite answer to this: Aside from those of us who frank by putting our names or initials on our mail, and besides departments which have some way of marking their letters, what persons or groups of persons in Canada, if any, have the right to send mail free through our post office? I would ask the minister to take time to consider my question because I have reason for wanting to have the list he gives very accurate indeed.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Let me say to the hon. member for Calgary West that I completely agree with him on the question of the franking privilege. However, I must say it is impossible to control the mail because we have no way of opening envelopes to know what is in them. We must rely upon the honour of anyone who has a frank not using it for purposes other than those for which it was meant. But I agree with the hon. member that it should not be used for any purpose other than correspondence.

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Replying to his second question I would refer him to section 42 and following of the Post Office Act, chapter 161, where it refers to the franking of free mail material.


Arthur Leroy Smith: That is allembracing?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Yes, it is.


George Alexander Drew: Are there any cases not covered by that section whereby any organization of any kind has the privilege or is able to obtain the right to have the word "free" stamped on the upper righthand corner of an envelope?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The answer is no.


Mr. Hosking:: I should like to bring a message from the members of my constituency to the Postmaster General. We are pleased to see him able to assume his duties again. I am sure we are all hoping that his health is as good as it would seem to be.
May I pay a compliment or two to those who organize and direct this great service in this dominion. When we think of posting a letter in Vancouver and having it delivered in Halifax without loss or restriction and for the very small sum of four cents, we must be at once aware of the great service thus rendered. If we are willing to pay an additional ten cents we can have it delivered in person, and if we wish to transmit money we can be sure that it will be received without loss. May I commend the staff that carry out the duties and make this great service possible for the people of Canada.
My constituency is located in Upper Canada. Many of its citizens were United Empire Loyalists. The descendants of those people still believe that their representative in parliament is the representative in the House of Commons, and that as such he has duties to perform. Therefore when I mention the great and good work of the department I allow myself to bask in some of the credit.
It is because of accepting some of that credit that I now call the attention of the committee to some of those things which I do not feel reflect credit on the department. Because I am a member representing a constituency I feel it my responsibility to place these facts before the minister.
In my riding I am served by a postman who has carried the mail since 1926. In 1924 he wrote two examinations, one for postal clerk and one for mail carrier. The record of his having tried these examinations appears to have been lost. For a number of years he has performed in an excellent manner, and without loss of time through sickness the duties entrusted to him. For the past four or

five years, whenever there has been a man short in the postal department, this man has been called in to act as clerk, and has been entrusted with the sorting of the mail, the registering of parcels and the selling of stamps. Indeed, he has performed those various tasks which are the duty of any clerk in a post office. I commend the choice of the Postmaster General in permitting this to take place. It has been most fortunate that for perhaps half of the last year he has been permitted to do this work, because during that time he has developed an arthritic spur on his heel and could not possibly carry the mail on his route every day without some days of easier work. It is with great pain that he walks his ten or twelve mile route every day. I quite realize that the civil service regulations are such that unless a man is qualified to hold a certain position he is not entitled to fill it. The record will show that he is not qualified to hold the position although he has been doing the work for the past number of years, by replacing those on sick leave or holidays, in order to assist the operation of the Post Office Department in Guelph. A week or so ago an hon. gentleman in my riding asked me to go for a ride with him around the city. I did so, and eventually I found myself following this mailman who was stepping gingerly on one foot. You could see that without doubt he was in pain every time the foot touched the sidewalk. This hon. gentleman said to me: "If that were a horse and you drove it ten miles every day on a mail route you would likely find yourself in jail."
I should like to point out to the civil service and to the members of the Post Office Department that that is not a humane thing to do. I should like to give a little more of the history of this man, and I hope the committee will bear with me while I do so. He joined a machine gun battalion in 1914 and learned to take apart and reassemble his machine gun in the dark. No papers were required for that. He was in the front lines and was wounded. A piece of shrapnel blasted away a section of his forehead, and he now has a silver plate in place of the original bone that God gave him. He was not questioned whether he had papers to qualify him to perform that duty. As a member whose constituents believe that he should represent them, I put this case before you, and I ask that between the Post Office Department and the civil service commission a slight bit of humanity be displayed, and that a good servant be rewarded in the way he should be.


Mr. Fraser:: During the past few weeks I have had a number of protests from people in certain sections of Peterborough city because of the fact that in seven different postal districts deliveries have been cut from two to one per day. The districts now having only one delivery have been enlarged to take in other territory. I do not know the reason for the change but if the minister knows I should like him to tell me what it is. The seven postal mail carriers for these districts have to work six full days a week instead of the usual five and a half days worked by the other twenty-one postal carriers in the Peterborough district.
In addition, the seven carriers covering the districts where there is only one delivery a day have a lot of difficulty in sorting their mail in the post office. I know the deputy minister is aware that the Peterborough post office is an antique. We have been promised a new one since 1913. The seven postal carriers have to use a rope hoist to lift their mail from the ground floor to the second floor. When they have sorted it they have to use the hoist again to lower it to the first floor. As I say, they are working six days a week and the other twenty-one carriers only work five and a half days. I understand the seven working the full six days receive the same pay as the other twenty-one.
The Peterborough post office was built when the population was not more than 10,000. Today the same post office is servicing over 50,000 people. I should like the minister to check not only the question of the districts that have only one delivery a day but also the matter of the hours that these seven men have to work. I had a call from Peterborough the other night about an order in council, I believe it was, having to do with the five day week for civil servants for the summer months. I should like to know whether that applies to mail carriers. I should also like the minister to tell me if he can when the new federal building in Peterborough embodying the post office is to be started. I understand that the requirements have been presented to the Minister of Public Works. We have a new postmaster now. I believe the death of the former postmaster was caused partly as a result of the conditions he had to contend with in the old office. I hope that something can be done to speed up the construction of the new building. If the Postmaster General can say anything about the special features to be incorporated in it I should like him to do so. I understand that Mr. Blackwell, a Peterborough architect, has some of the plans, and I wish the minister would give me any information on that matter that he can. I should also
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like to know whether the men who are working six days a week instead of five and a half are allowed overtime. I notice there is an amount of $600,000 in the estimates for overtime.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The answer to the last question is no. We are well aware that there is great need for a post office in Peterborough city, and we are going ahead full steam to replace the present building. So far as the actual construction is concerned, of course you will have to look to the Department of Public Works for information as to that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What about the one delivery
a day?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I will look into it. When we extend service we have to take this precaution, but I will look into the matter.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The point I am getting at is that we had two deliveries before. Now you have extended the districts, but at the same time you are depriving people of two deliveries who had that service before, which is not right.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I will see what I can do about it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I know the Postmaster General will agree with me.


Mr. Cardiff:: Has any effort been made in the past year or two to bring rural postmasters in small post offices under the civil service? I should like to refer to what was said by the hon. member for Kamloops on June 3, 1948, as recorded at page 4775 of Hansard. He said:
I have three or four matters I should like to take up with the Postmaster General. The first is the question raised by the announcement made in the press, and I believe also in the house, to the effect that rural postmasters, or postmasters of small offices, were to be made civil servants. So far as 1 know, the necessary legislation has not gone through the house. Is it intended to introduce a bill this year, or is that to be done by order in council?
The then postmaster general replied:
According to the rules, that is done by the Postmaster General himself. An explanation as to why it is done in that way would take some time, but I would point out that it has always been within the jurisdiction of the Postmaster General.
It is true, as the hon. member says, that a greater amount of post office revenue and a greater number of postmasters are being brought under the civil service, with fair salaries. In the meantime, in respect of post offices with revenue of over $3,000, we are now taking care of rentals ourselves to ensure that we have better places in which to install our post offices. Also, if help is required we see that the salaries of the helpers are fixed by and paid for by the department. The postmaster will have a fixed salary. Postmasters in post offices with revenue of more than $3,000 will, we hope, be eligible for superannuation, if they are not too old. In this way they become permanent employees.

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We are working on this matter. A beginning has been made and we hope to be able to continue. It will be remembered, of course, that there are over 12,000 post offices in Canada, and it will take considerable time before we can establish this procedure at every point.
The question I want to ask the Postmaster General now-


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: All that has been carried out. We have transferred 1,300 in the last two years.


Mr. Mallais:: I have a simple question to direct to the Postmaster General arising out of a letter which I found in my box today forwarded by the Canadian peace congress, on which appears the name of Dr. J. G. Endicott. This letter was sent without a stamp, bearing the words "On His Majesty's service," and from what I have heard from time to time the activities of this organization seem to be more or less communistic. I should like to know who are permitted to send letters to members of this house without stamps, on His Majesty's service?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Letters addressed to members of parliament are of course on His Majesty's service.


Lauréat Maltais: Perhaps my next question should be directed to the Minister of Justice, but I should like to know whether within the Post Office Department there is any machinery to investigate anything suspicious that may be going through the mail. It is not that I want to cast suspicion on this particular . organization, but I should like to know if there is any machinery to investigate people having suspicious propaganda circulated and give an opinion as to whether they should be permitted to send material through the mail labelled "On His Majesty's service." I am not saying this is communist propaganda, but it seems very queer that letters promoting the Russian way of life should come to us bearing those words.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: No one in the Post Office Department, not even the Postmaster General, with the exception of those in the dead letter organization, has any right to open a letter, so there is no way of knowing what is inside it, and therefore no way of knowing whether it contains propaganda, whether good or bad.


Mr. Fulford:: I should like to call the attention of the Postmaster General to a matter of great historical importance to his department. Next year Canada will be celebrating the centenary of the issuing of our first postage stamps. Other countries in the world have celebrated their centenaries by holding expositions and issuing special commemorative sets of postage stamps. In 1940, for 
instance, which was Great Britain's centenary, they issued a set of six stamps containing on one side a reproduction of the original Queen Victoria one penny stamp and on the other side a modern picture of King George VI. In the United States in 1947 a special three-cent stamp was issued as well as a souvenir sheet of two stamps containing reproductions of the two original stamps issued (by the United States post office. Within the empire, in the island colony of Mauritius, a set of four commemorative stamps was issued in 1948.
International exhibitions have been held in United States, Switzerland, Belgium, and France, and just last month in London. There is an organization in Canada known as the Canadian association of philatelic exhibitions which is arranging an exposition in Toronto to commemorate this historic occasion, to be held from September 21 to 29, 1951, and I am sure it will be the desire and intention of the Postmaster General and his department to co-operate with this association to the greatest degree possible.
The situation in Canada with regard to the issuing of postage stamps is somewhat different to that in most countries, owing to the fact that before confederation various provinces issued their own stamps. For instance, British Columbia and Vancouver island started issuing postage stamps in 1861, New Brunswick in 1851, Newfoundland in 1857, Nova Scotia in 1851, Prince Edward Island in 1861 and Upper and Lower Canada in 1851. That issue, of course, really marked the beginning of the issuing of Canadian postage stamps. The three prairie provinces never issued stamps. It seems to me it would be very opportune if a special commemorative set were issued in conjunction with this exposition which is to be held in Toronto, which it is hoped will attract visitors from all over the civilized world. Incidentally, stamp collecting is said now to be the most practised hobby in the world.
In issuing these stamps I hope and believe designs can be found which will commemorate the very fine stamps issued by the post office in 1851. I need hardly warn the Postmaster General not to repeat the mistake made by one Charles Connell, who when postmaster general of New Brunswick had a five-cent stamp engraved with his own likeness. That stamp never went into circulation, because the ridicule was so great that he ordered the entire issue destroyed. I know these remarks would not be applicable to the present Postmaster General. I feel confident that he and his officials will take into serious consideration the issuing of appropriate stamps which will bring to the attention of

the world the fact that Canada was one of the first countries to use the postage stamp as a means of prepaying mail.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: If I may ask the Postmaster General a further question, what qualifications must be possessed before a postmaster is given consideration as a civil servant?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: He must possess the usual qualifications. That is, he must toe well educated and have some experience; and, in offices of more than $3,000, he must pass the examinations of the civil service commission.


Gordon Graydon: A moment ago an hon. member mentioned the question of communist literature being circulated through the mails of Canada. I am not sure that the organization to which he referred admits being a communist organization, so perhaps I need not take it as a case in point. The Postmaster General indicated that no one except officials of the dead letter office has the right to open a letter. I think no member of parliament would want his mail opened, regardless of who was writing to him. I well remember the great protest that arose during the war over the alleged opening of certain letters coming to members of parliament. I fancy that every member would be jealous of his right in that regard. Nevertheless, the hon. member does raise a point which perhaps I might pursue along a slightly different line. If no one except the dead letter office officials has the right to open letters, how is it that the Leaside Lions club, Calgary Stampeders, and such organizations seem to have the use of the mails denied to them-Even the personnel connected with those organizations have been denied the use of the mails. How is it the Post Office Department knows what is in those letters? More than that, if they know what is in those letters it would seem to me rank discrimination against a good Canadian citizen to have his mail disturbed and his mailing privileges stopped, when there must be in Canada from time to time communist propaganda of various kinds circulating, and so far as I am aware the Post Office Department has not stopped the mails going to any of those people. This may be carrying out a general policy that may be quite proper, but it does seem to me that if you are going to make scapegoats of Canadians, there are some of these other people whom I would rather see made scapegoats. I think we ought to have something from the minister about that.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The information we receive comes in the form of complaints from various organizations. In these lottery schemes there are always some of those letters that do find their way to the dead letter office.
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Just how it happens, I do not know. They are opened there because they do not show any return address on the envelope. Of course when someone puts a lottery ticket in a letter he usually puts his address on the lottery ticket, and that is how we know where the letter comes from.


Gordon Graydon: Unless a mistake is made in the address, you never catch them?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I would not go that far, because that would be encouraging them.


Jean-François Pouliot: I shall not be long, but since I have not time to read novels, I enjoy myself by reading reference books and making comparisons. According to the Canadian almanac, I see that there are thirteen Ph.D.'s in the Department of Agriculture. The chief of the tobacco division is a Ph.D. I am wondering why, in the list of post office officials, there are no Ph.D.'s. I wonder if they are Ph.D.'s and are too modest to mention it, or if they do not care about it. I should like to know if there are any Ph.D.'s in the Post Office Department, and I intend to ask a question about that of all the departments. I want to know more about mortarboards.


Mr. Calherwood:: I should like to take about five minutes of the time of the committee to say a word on these estimates, and in doing so to commend the minister on the excellent report he presented to this committee. The fact that we have an income of over $101 million is a credit to his department, and indicates the progress Canada is making generally. I wish to say a word about the Post Office Department, because I believe it is rather unique amongst the various departments of government in the fact that it serves all the people of Canada. The Department of Agriculture serves the agricultural interests of the country; the Department of Transport serves the great ramifications of the transportation system of our country, and the same is true of other departments, but the postal department is one that is interested in every man, woman, and child in the Dominion of Canada.
As the Postmaster General has indicated, there are 46,000 people employed in this department. I believe every member of this house will agree that those 46,000 employees have done a marvellous job in the capacity in which they are working. I believe every member of the house will also agree that, particularly at the Christmas season, they do a excellent job in dispatching the mails day by day. I should like to add a word to what the member for Peel stated in regard to rural mail administration. The rural mail delivery service is one that we in rural Canada do

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appreciate greatly. We accept it as part of the great network of services rendered to the people of rural Canada. It was in the year 1908 that the Postmaster General inaugurated the first rural postal delivery service in Canada, patterned on a plan in effect in the United States. This delivery service has grown rapidly, as the Postmaster General has said, until today it serves almost 350,000 boxholders across this dominion in those great areas that lie outside our towns and cities.
The reason, Mr. Chairman, for this brief outline is to bring to this committee a general picture of how the rural people of Canada depend upon this delivery service. I do feel that the rural mail couriers are perhaps the lowest paid class of people in Canada. I was glad to hear the Postmaster General mention the setting up of a plan for the improvement of the rural mail couriers' situation. I know the member for Temiscouata will not approve, but I do believe a committee should be set up to review this whole situation with a view to improving conditions for the rural mail couriers. The average mail route, particularly in the area from which I come, is twenty-five miles in length. The mail couriers average about four stops per mile, so that means about one hundred stops during the route. I believe that a rate of pay of about nine cents per mile would be a fair allocation of the cost of mail service. For the average twenty-five mile route, the courier would travel 7,500 miles a year. It would cost about $675 to operate a motorcar in the section where I live, and there would be approximately $575 left for his income after his operational costs were paid, basing it on a $50 per mile tender.
I do feel, Mr. Chairman, in view of the foregoing remarks, that the minister should take into consideration the facts I have mentioned. I realize that a great many people will say that tenders were called and were accepted. That is true, and in most cases I suppose the lowest tender was accepted. At the same time, many of those tenders were called for at a time when figures on cost were going down, and instead of that they have increased. The cost of operating motorcars has increased since those tenders were accepted. I believe some consideration should be given to that fact. All over rural Ontario we find that the mail .couriers have to drive older model cars in order to show a profit on the operation. I do say that should not be. The custodian of the king's mail should be able to drive a motorcar that is in keeping with his duties. I know a particular mail courier who has had a route for thirty-three years. He was telling me he had to tender so low in order to get the position that
[Mr. Catherwood.l
he is no further ahead today than he was. when he started. I believe that a committee, as suggested by the hon. member for Peel,, could take all these matters into consideration. After so many years' satisfactory service with the department, I believe these men should come under the superannuation system. I hope the minister will take these matters into consideration.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I shall certainly take them into consideration, but I do not think any members of this service would like to be government employees. If we gave them salaries, they would be.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to take up with the Postmaster General three matters which are of concern: to my constituency, but I think they cover problems which are common to other constituencies as well. The first of these is the question of the extension of the air mail service to two areas where scheduled flights have recently been inaugurated. The first of these is between Kamloops and Penticton. It serves the cities of Kamloops, Vernon, Kelowna and Penticton. The other is the service from Vancouver to Prince George, via Kamloops, Williams Lake and Quesnel. That service goes on to Fort St. John.
This matter has been discussed with the department ever since the services were inaugurated, and I regret to have to say that the decision so far has not been favourable, even though for a time the Acting Postmaster General-that is, the Solicitor General-was looking after the affairs of the department. Although the Postmaster General, whom we are all glad to see back here today, said that the Acting Postmaster General was generous during his absence, I regret to say that his generosity did not extend to approving air mail service on those two routes, as requested. Now that the Postmaster General is back and restored to health, perhaps he will be feeling generous, and I am encouraged to believe that we can hope for success in making this request.
I base the request for air mail service on these routes on two premises: first, the populations to be served, which speak for themselves; and second, the necessity of giving a better service to those areas, and particularly perhaps to the area of the Cariboo, than they have had in the past. I understand that the principle is that air mail service will not be approved where surface mail provides an alternative delivery as fast as it can be delivered by air mail. In this respect the argument that I am about to make applies particularly to the service from Vancouver to Kamloops, Williams Lake

and on up to the north, because those areas up through the Cariboo are not served adequately by daily surface mail.
Here I want to advance again an argument that I have advanced before with respect to the development of our pioneer districts. No one will object, on the face of it, to the inauguration of the all-up air mail service; but that service applies at the moment only to the main line T.C.A. routes between our main centres, and those centres were already served by a good surface mail system. There were no great delays in the delivery of mail between our large cities. While, as I say, no one could object to the general principle of improving and speeding up that system, I feel that the pioneer areas which suffer from an inadequate mail service are entitled to at least as much consideration and are certainly entitled to have their inadequate mail service made adequate when other areas have their adequate service made superlative. The mail services in the districts to which I refer are certainly not first-class.
Another argument in that regard is that those areas pay their full and fair share of taxes; and the inauguration of all-up air mail service on the main lines does not benefit them. They do not begrudge, and speaking as their representative I do not begrudge, the superlative service which all-up air mail service gives; but the point I want to urge strongly is that the tax money of the people in the pioneer areas, in its proportion, goes to support those superlative or improved services whereas they themselves get no corresponding benefit or improvement in service. I think that they are entitled now to have a recognition of their position and, where the facilities make it possible, as is now the case with the institution of these scheduled air services to which I have referred, they are entitled to have their tax contribution recognized by improving their services, and by granting in this case an air mail service on the Vancouver, Kamloops, Williams Lake, Prince George run.
Mr. Murray (Caribool: May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?


Edmund Davie Fulton: Perhaps the hon. member might address his question to the Postmaster General when I have finished.


George Matheson Murray: I should like to ask a question of the hon. member who is speaking. He is making a statement which is not just factual.


Edmund Davie Fulton: What I would suggest is this, Mr. Chairman. If the hon. gentleman thinks that my plea for the area that I represent is not justified-
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George Matheson Murray: I was asking you to stop at the boundary.


Mr.   Chairman@: Order. The hon. member for Kamloops has the floor.


An hon. Member:: Let him ask a question.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Incidentally, if what I gather from the interruption of the hon. member for Cariboo is that he does not wish the extension of the air mail service beyond Williams Lake to his constituency, I should be glad indeed to confine the request in the remarks I have made to my own constituency.
With this request for that air mail service, I should like to couple a request for a daily mail service by surface to the way post offices up the Cariboo highway. I have taken this matter up previously with the department, and an investigation was made into the cost. The figures produced were said to be such that the cost of the increased service made it impossible to approve the request. I do not know the basis upon which the department made this investigation and obtained the figures, but I was advised that they were obtained from one carrier only. What I want to suggest to the minister is that he should obtain figures from other carriers who serve the area.
My suggestion is this. The mail might be carried to Williams Lake by the present service from Ashcroft, and the possibility should be investigated of having some of the trucking lines make a distribution from Williams Lake on their journeys up and down the Cariboo highway; or alternately, the possibility should be investigated of having them make a distribution from Ashcroft.
I have a great deal of correspondence on this matter; and a number of my correspondents advise me that over the past twenty years there has been no improvement in the mail service in these areas on the Cariboo highway. Twenty years is a long time to wait for an improvement in the mail service. As a matter of fact, in the old days when they had the horse-drawn stage coaches, those points had a better mail service than they have now, because then they had a daily mail service. Now most of those points have service only three times a week in the summertime, by the P.G.E., and twice a week in the wintertime. To those people who depend on these post offices up and down the Cariboo highway, many of whom are in business, running tourist camps and guest camps, the present system results in a serious loss of business; because by the time a person will write in from, say, Seattle or some other point down in the states, and the letter comes through Vancouver and up the P.G.E., it is not delivered to these points until perhaps four

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days after it has been written; then by the time it goes out on the rural mail route and a reply is sent in and back down via the P.G.E. from the post office, it is up to ten days before the writer of the letter receives an answer. I have been told of cases where business has been lost as a consequence, because those writing in for reservations or to find out if they can be accommodated at certain times will not wait that long for a reply. Since there is a daily stage service and trucking service passing directly up and down the Cariboo highway it is time that these people received daily mail service to the way post offices on that route. I again advance the argument that these people contribute their full share of taxes to the general revenue of the country. If we can institute a superservice by way of an all-up air mail to areas which were already receiving a fast surface delivery, surely it is time' that we provided an adequate service to those areas which have been struggling for so long with an inadequate mail delivery.
I appreciate the work that the Post Office Department does. I am sure that the Postmaster General would like to grant these requests, and if he feels that he has not yet been able to justify it, I urge him to bear in mind these considerations on which I have based the request. These people contribute their share of taxes. In proportion they pay just as much as the other areas, and it is not fair to penalize them any longer, and to deny them longer the adequate service to which they are entitled, and which they need.
Then I should like to ask the Postmaster General if he will consider another matter, and here I am speaking also on behalf of the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green). It is a question involving the shipment of parcels to the United Kingdom. It has been drawn to my attention that many people have found-and I have personal knowledge of this-that food parcels have been lost and no trace can be found of them; and no report can be made of what has happened. This has had a cumulative effect and lias discouraged people from sending parcels. The suggestion has been made that some process be worked out whereby it would be possible to trace the parcel from the time of mailing to the time of delivery or loss. Could such a system be instituted with respect to parcels to the United Kingdom without great expense? I appreciate that if it were very expensive the department would be reluctant to do it. Would a system comparable to the registration system be feasible with respect to these parcels? Even if it were necessary to charge three cents or five cents for the registration, could it be done on that

basis so as to provide a means of tracing the parcel? Will the Postmaster General give us an answer to that question?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The expense of registration
would be about 25 cents per package. That would be half of the actual rate.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I put this before the Postmaster General: the expense of registering a letter is only 10 cents. I wonder whether it would not be possible to-


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Registration price and cost are not the same. The price is 10 cents; the cost is 20 cents.


George Matheson Murray: We will never get a perfect mail service. That would be a service where the deliveries would be made every hour or so even if you were out on the Cariboo road or back in the Peace river country. I must take the hon. member for Kamloops to task to a certain extent. Of course he is doing good work when he is urging the department to extend service.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: Do you want to go back to the dog team days?


George Matheson Murray: No, nor the horse and buggy days or the stage coach days. The situation on the Cariboo road today

and I speak with direct knowledge of course- is this. At the town of Quesnel we receive at least one air mail service daily, and at the town of Prince George somewhat further on we receive two air mail services daily, plus the rail service, plus the mail that is hauled in by the stage. Below Quesnel we have the rural route recently installed. Coming then further along the Cariboo road we certainly have a very good service, but not throughout its entire length, but certainly in that area. Out of Prince George we have two rural routes, and we are going along very nicely along the Cariboo road. Back in the country for some distance in some of these mining camps, and so on, the deliveries are not as regular as they might be, but you must expect that in a rough country.
While I am commenting here, I join with the hon. member for Kamloops, in asking for a little more money for some of our post offices. We have a very good country up there and the revenues are good, especially at Dawson Creek and at some other points, namely, Fort St. John and Quesnel. All that we need is about $50,000 post offices at each of these points and we would be delightedly happy.
I want to say a word with regard to these couriers. It is unfortunate that these people are encouraged to bid against each other until the mail which is hauled by land up there is often hauled at much less than

the cost of transportation. The department might put a base price on for hauling the mail. Something should be done along that line, and in the meantime I want to thank the minister for the excellent service being given at Quesnel and all through other points in the Cariboo riding.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Will the minister comment on my request for more service?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I have taken due note of the requests and I shall consider them.


John Lambert Gibson: I should like to join the hon. member for Cariboo in expressing to the Postmaster General and to his efficient administrative staff my appreciation of the excellent job they have done throughout Canada, and particularly in my own riding, and I am quite sure in all ridings. As far as I am concerned I was particularly pleased to hear the hon. member for Cariboo express his thanks for the service which has been given to the city of Prince George, which is a very fine city. I do not think it is quite in the same class as the Comox-Courtenay area and the Campbell River area. I would like the minister further to consider the proposition I have offered him that we should also receive only one first-class air mail service a day. We have an air passenger service in there twice a day now. We would be quite content to accept just one service by plane a day. I would ask the Postmaster General to see if it is not possible for him to extend that service to that area in the very near future.


Mr. Fair:: There are just one or two small matters that I should like to bring to the attention of the Postmaster General before this item carries. First, a word in connection with the rural directories. I should like to know whether it is possible to have greater co-operation from the postmasters at various country post offices because the directories are not at all up to date. In some instances we get from fifty to sixty or seventy-five letters back that are sent out according to the latest directories.
Another matter is the question of the lobby in the post offices being left open on Sunday. In my particular territory the mail trains come through during the night, and the mail is sorted and placed in letter boxes for those who have letter boxes. It was the custom until about a year ago to leave the post office lobby open on Sunday mornings for about an hour so that the people around could get their mail. However an inspector came along and said that the doors could not be left open on Sundays. A number of subscribers to boxes would like to have that service returned to them. I might say that
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the postmaster has no objection at all to leaving the lobby open for a while on Sunday mornings. In fact, he would be glad to do it because it would dispose of an accumulation of mail, and permit him to be ready for the next mail on Monday. What can be done about it?


Mr. Higgins:: I have one request to make in connection with the establishment of rural mail delivery on Bell island. This is one of the important parts of Newfoundland. Apart from St. John's, it is perhaps the largest community, with a population of about 9,000. At present it has only three post offices, consisting of a main office and two branches. The mail is brought to the main office and distributed to the two branch offices.
I would point out that in the main office only three persons are employed, whereas at Corner Brook there is a staff of twenty. These people have to call at the post office for their mail. I_believe this matter has been referred to the minister's assistant, and I would urge upon the minister the very great necessity for establishing an adequate delivery service either rural or suburban.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I shall consider that for sure.


William Joseph Browne: At various times since August I have received requests to have post offices re-established in places where they were discontinued between 1931 and 1934, the years of depression. I have written to the inspector of post offices and have received the assurance that matters would be investigated. I have also written to the Postmaster General and received a cordial reply in which he has said that an investigation would take place.
Up to the present time however I have received no report on any of these requests. My letter of June 24 refers to post offices to be established at Daniel's Point, Regina, Colinet Island, Point la Haye, Mobile and Brigus South. I know this community well, and I know also that people have to go five or six miles to get their mail-and this at a time when the couriers are passing through these areas. I suggest this is a matter worthy of consideration.
Since April 1 of last year only one post office has been restored to Newfoundland. I believe we have 526 post offices, and one more has been added. On the other hand, there are about 1,400 in Nova Scotia. I am suggesting that we should have many more, because we used to have about 800. We are not asking for very many; there have been only four or five applications. I wonder whether the Postmaster General would see that these matters are investigated?

Supply-Post Office
Then, the people at Witless Bay would like to have established a postal money order post office. I have received no word as to what is to happen in connection with that. Has anything been done, or will anything be done?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I shall consider it.


William Joseph Browne: I should
like to have an answer.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It is impossible for me to remember each of these cases. I shall look up the files and do what I can.


William Joseph Browne: I should like to have a reply, because I have had no information since last August.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The reports have not yet come to my hand. As soon as I have them I shall *consider them and advise the hon. member.


William Joseph Browne: If there has been no report, what is the delay? This request was made last August.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is exactly what I am going to inquire about.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Mr. McLure:: No, it is not carried. I have been taking my daily dozen, trying to get to my feet all afternoon. I shall commence my remarks by reiterating what was said by the hon. member for Peel in welcoming back the Postmaster General after his illness. I too am delighted to see him in his seat. At a time when we are rushing to pass the estimates it is unfortunate that those of his department should be left until this time, when we will not have an opportunity to go into them in the fullest detail. We will do our best in the next day or two, and I hope we will give them the once over they really deserve.
The hon. member for Peel concluded his remarks by making what amounted almost to a motion for the setting up of a committee to deal with the problem of rural mail delivery. This was supposed to be considered by a committee in 1945 or 1946. I support the hon. member in the suggestion he made today.
At this point I would ask to call it six o'clock.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that we sit a few moments later, because at eight o'clock we would wish to take up the rest of the estimates of the Department of Resources and Development. My colleague wishes to leave this evening, and we will not be able to continue with the post office estimates at eight o'clock. We have been discussing them since three o'clock,
IMr. Browne (St. John's West).]
and have covered almost the whole field. Perhaps if we were to sit a few minutes longer we might finish it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Don't forget public and private bills.


Alphonse Fournier: I was thinking of public and private bills. However, I should think that after this long discussion we might complete this department-unless someone has a desire to speak at some length.


Charles Edward Johnston: I would ask the minister to reply to the hon. member for Battle River in the matter of the closing of post offices on Sundays. I have had the same complaint in my constituency, and I should like to be able to reply to those who have complained to me about it.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The question of Sunday services is of course a ticklish one. Postmasters, in common with all other employees, are entitled to have some rest. We do not discourage a postmaster who, of his own accord, wishes to give additional service. On the other hand we believe they are entitled to the day of rest. Then, so far as the directory matter is concerned, I shall see what I can do about it.


Robert Fair: The postmasters are not complaining. It was the inspector who closed the lobbies; the postmasters were satisfied to leave them open.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am told the postmasters have asked for overtime pay. We are not ready to give it; if they wish to give the service to the public, that is their business.


Robert Fair: The mail is in locked boxes. If a postmaster would leave a lobby open, it would be sufficient. My understanding is that postmasters would be satisfied to do that, but that the inspector objects.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: No, it does not carry. Are you going to call it six o'clock?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


The Chairman:: Unless there is unanimous consent I shall call it six o'clock.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I understand that we are to take up the estimates of the Department of Resources and Development.


Alphonse Fournier: Yes, the other minister is going away.


Stanley Howard Knowles: We could sit two or three minutes for that.


Alphonse Fournier: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I was not listening to what was said. Will the hon. member repeat his suggestion?


Stanley Howard Knowles: I find there is not unanimous consent to the suggestion I made, so there is no use repeating it.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



QUEEN MARY'S CARPET

[Stage Direction]
PURCHASE BY IMPERIAL ORDER DAUGHTERS OP THE EMPIRE *
Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, with the unanimous consent of the house I should like to make an announcement that I am sure will be pleasing to all members of the house. This afternoon I received a telegram from the president of the Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire in the following terms:
Following is text of release made today: "Imperial Order Daughters of the Empire announce that word has been received from Queen Mary carpet committee in England of the acceptance of the I.O.D.E. offer to purchase the royal carpet for Canada. The order is sponsoring a Canadian fund to raise as large an amount as possible with a minimum of one hundred thousand dollars to which all loyal Canadians are asked to contribute. No contribution will be too large or too small." British committee indicated delight of United Kingdom that carpet to be in Canada.
Helen Chipman Mrs. John H. Chipman
Mrs. Chipman is the president of the I.O.D.E. I am sure we shall all be delighted to learn that this work of love and devotion to the restoration of the United Kingdom will permanently remain as a treasure of the Canadian people.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table a letter I have received from the premier of British Columbia expressing his satisfaction at the manner in which the diking work erected in 1948 stood the test of the recent floods in that province.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILL


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 301, for the relief of Ernest Beliveau.-Mr. Winkler.
Pipe Lines Act PIPE LINES ACT

[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Resuming debate on the motion of Mr. Sinnott for the second reading of Bill No. 132, an act to amend the Pipe Lines Act, and on the proposed amendment thereto of the Minister of Trade and Commerce.
Some hon. Members:: Stand.


Howard Charles Green: What is the position, Mr. Speaker? Does the motion stand?


Mr. Speaker:: The rule is that the bill should stand when the sponsor or someone authorized to act in his behalf is not in the chamber. However, this is probably the last evening on which these bills will be called. While I would not permit a vote to be taken, in view .of the speeches that have been made I would not stop the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) if he wished to speak. I do not know whether or not the hon. gentleman desires to proceed.


Some hon. Members:: Stand.


Howard Charles Green: I understand Your Honour is ruling that I can speak but no one else may do so, and there can be no vote. Is that it?


Mr. Speaker:: I could not permit a vote in view of the ruling I have made, but in view of all the circumstances in connection with this bill I would not stop the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra if he wanted to speak on it.


Howard Charles Green: I would not want to ask any favours of that kind.


Mr. Speaker:: I was not suggesting it as a favour but as the fair thing in the circumstances.
Order stands.


Mr. Speaker:: The business for this hour having been concluded, the house will revert to the matter under consideration at six o'clock.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCES AND DEVELOPMENT Loans and Investments-
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
562. To provide for advances to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for the acquisition of land, the installation of services and improvements in respect thereof, the purchase of building materials and the construction or conversion of housing projects for veterans under the authority of section 34 of the National Housing Act, 1944, and, with the approval of treasury board, for the Department of National Defence, including construction of school buildings, $75,000,000.

Supply-Resources and Development


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman-


Mr. Winters:: Since it appears that at least one hon. member wishes to speak on this item, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should make a brief statement. This vote covers moneys required (1) to complete the veterans' housing programs, with $18,500,000 required for that purpose; (2) to complete the 1949-50 program of houses for the use of married personnel in the three armed services, an amount of $26,500,000; (3) to construct the 1949-50 program of schools and services for housing projects built in army camps, air stations and naval establishments, in the amount of $10 million; and (4) to finance the 1950 program for houses for married personnel of the Department of National Defence as well as ground services for such houses, an amount of $20 million.
The 1949 veterans' rental program amounted in all to 4,798 units. As at March 31, 1950, there were 1,415 units still to be started, as well as 2,278 units which had been started before March 31, 1950, but which were still to be completed. This, together with some landscaping and miscellaneous work to complete the 1948 program, involves $18,500,000.
The sum of $26,500, is required to complete houses for married service personnel. The 1949 program amounted to 4,530 units in thirty-four projects. As at the end of the fiscal year 273 of these units were completed and 2,585 had been started but were not complete. Some 1,672 units were to be started after March 31, 1950.
Arrangements have been made under which approximately $10 million is required for twenty-two schools. In every province we received co-operation from the department of education, both in respect to the design and type of school as well as to its operation after completion.
Though the 1950 program for married personnel for the Department of National Defence is still under consideration, we have included in this estimate an amount of $20 million to provide for approximately 2,000 additional houses. Because basic arrangements have been determined with the Department of National Defence for the 1949 program, it is anticipated that an earlier start can be made this year than last. I hope that all contracts will be awarded for the 1950 program, with very few exceptions, before too long.
Hon. members will recall that though this construction is carried out by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation each project, both in respect to the number of units and their cost, is approved by treasury board
Mr. Speaker.]

before Central Mortgage undertakes the contract. The government has not finally determined the size of the 1950 housing program for the Department of National Defence, but should it exceed 2,000 units additional funds will be requested at a later date.
During the first four months of 1950 residential construction has continued at approximately the same level as during 1949. During the first quarter of 1950 new residential starts in all parts of the country were 5 [DOT] 5 per cent above those in the corresponding period of 1949. Completions during the first quarter of 1950 were almost the same as in the first quarter of 1949. In cities and towns with populations of 5,000 and over, starts during the first four months of 1950 were 12-2 per cent in excess of starts in the same period in 1949. This reflects greater residential activity in the maritimes, Quebec and Ontario. Starts in the prairies and British Columbia were three per cent and ten per cent respectively below starts in the first four months of last year.
I wish to emphasize, however, that because of climatic and other conditions, starts during the first three or four months of any year may or may not be indicative of a trend for the year as a whole. It will be recalled that although first quarter starts in 1949 exceeded those for 1948, 1949 starts for the year as a whole were slightly below those of 1948.
Furthermore, the recent change in the lumber situation may have an important bearing upon the number of starts in 1949. Prices of lumber have increased sharply in all parts of the country, and there is now evidence that even at increased prices lumber is not readily available to house builders. In the program of married quarters for the Department of National Defence, four projects have been postponed because the prices bid by contractors range from $800 to $1,300 per unit above prices for similar houses in 1949. We do not intend to proceed with projects at this price level.
The same trend is showing in private house building. The cost of individual houses will increase, and already in certain areas there is a shortage of lumber which is stopping the framing of houses. This condition is likely to reduce the number of new starts for the year, notwithstanding an increase in the number of new starts during the first four months of 1950.
The increase in price is occasioned by the buoyant demand for lumber in the United States. This has had the effect of a sharp increase in prices in the United States, with the result that our exports to that country have increased to such a point that domestic supply is not generally sufficient.

As far as the operations of central mortgage are concerned, we have no intention of supporting the "demand" side of the market by building married quarters at greatly increased prices, nor do we intend to adjust loans under the National Housing Act to take care of marked increases in cost both to the builder and the home owner resulting from the increase in the price of lumber. We deem it better to face a decline in the number of starts rather than add to the inflationary trend. For these reasons I cannot give the house an estimate of starts and completions for the year 1950.
Hon. members will recall that the National Housing Act was amended at the last session of parliament by the introduction-through section 35-of an arrangement for the federal government and the provinces to enter into agreements which would lead to public assistance in the field of housing. When the various provincial legislatures met this spring, seven of the ten provinces passed legislation complementary to section 35 of the National Housing Act. Since then we have been working with the provinces to determine mutually satisfactory activity in this field. Activity in some twenty to thirty municipalities has now been discussed with the provincial governments. Over-all agreements with Ontario and British Columbia have been entered into whereby preliminary expenses may be incurred.
In Ontario there is a lack of serviced land within the larger municipalities. At this stage we are working with the Ontario government towards a substantial number of land assembly projects, whereby land will be serviced and made available to private builders who are prepared to build houses of a type and at a price satisfactory to the two governments.
The province of New Brunswick is actively considering proposals for housing in the city of Saint John. Today we received a proposal from the government for a housing project in that city.
Because of flood conditions it is not likely that a start will be made in the use of this legislation in Manitoba in 1950. Preliminary conversations were under way with the Manitoba government, but have been suspended during the period of emergency in that province.
In British Columbia negotiations are under way, and I hope that before long it will be possible to announce the projects which will be undertaken in that province.
Preliminary conversations have taken place with Saskatchewan, although we have not yet reached a point where specific projects are under consideration.
Supply-Resources and Development
An agreement has been signed with the government of Newfoundland for a subsidized low rental housing project in the city of St. John's involving 140 units. The contract has been awarded and construction has started. Negotiations are under way with the government of Newfoundland for the installation of services such as water, sewer, roads and sidewalks for a land assembly project of approximately 100 acres. The purpose is to make serviced lots available to individuals who wish to build homes.
Changes made in the National Housing Act at the last session have doubtless been an important factor in the increase in the number of joint loans. Some 8,800 units have been approved under part I of the act during the first four months of 1950, as compared with 4,650 units in the same period in 1949 

an increase of almost 90 per cent.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Chairman, I think it is rather remarkable that this is the first occasion in this 1950 session when there has been a debate on the subject of housing. It is no doubt regrettable, but it seems that this is the first occasion, in the absence of any legislation dealing with housing, for any extended discussion on the situation. I do not propose, Mr. Chairman, even under those circumstances to speak at length. We are so close to the end of the session, it seems to me that the occasion calls only for touching on the highlights of the situation, rather than for an extended review of the problem. I do hope, however, that the fact that the debate on this occasion may be brief, and the fact that there was little said about housing at this session, will not be construed by anyone as indicating, on the part of the house, a feeling that the housing problem has greatly improved.
One wishes that at this late date, June, 1950, one could say that the housing problem has shown substantial improvement. But one cannot say that. The problem is still very serious, and has grave aspects to it. The minister has touched on certain figures in regard to completions and starts. The figures that were released on June 16 by the dominion bureau of statistics indicate that in the first quarter of 1950 completions totalled 17,873 as compared with 17,826 in the first quarter of 1949. The results of completions thus are almost the same. Starts in the first quarter of 1950 numbered 9,015, as compared with 8,396 in 1949. At the end of March there were 50,161 units under construction as compared with 46,886 a year earlier.
4222	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development
The same bulletin issued by the dominion bureau of statistics, Mr. Chairman, has this interesting comment to add:
From the types of dwelling units constructed during the first quarter of 1950, it is estimated that 28 per cent were for rental purposes, showing no change from the same period of 1949.
So that relatively, of the housing that is now becoming available, the proportion available for rental purposes, of which the need is very acute, has not increased.
Members who sat in the last parliament have been accustomed to hearing the present Minister of Trade and Commerce, when he had Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in his department, touch upon the question of the relationship between the housing problem and the family formation rate. How he used to let that expression, "the family formation rate", with its alliteration, roll off the end of his tongue! On June 23 the dominion bureau of statistics issued some figures as a result of a study in that field. The bulletin reads as follows:
Between June, 1941, and June, 1949, the number of families in Canada increased by slightly more than 26 per cent and the number of households by slightly more than 24 per cent, according to estimates by the dominion bureau of statistics. Since 1947, however, the rise in number of households has exceeded the increase in number of families.
The estimated number of households in June, 1949, was 3,360,000, an increase of 125,000 or 3-9 per cent over the estimated 3,235,000 in June, 1948, and
232.000	or 7-4 per cent over the estimated 3,128,000 in June, 1947. In comparison, the estimated number of families was 3,187,000 in June last year, showing a rise of 99,000 or 3-2 per cent over the estimated
3.088.000	a year earlier and 150,000 or just under five per cent over the total of 3,037,000 in June, 1947.
Now, sir, it may be that those figures, in the light of the statements made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in earlier sessions, are capable of having more than one inference drawn from them. I think, however, that this is at least one inference that may be drawn from these figures: if we are not making the progress with the housing problem that we should like to see made, it can no longer be attributable to any acceleration of the family formation rate over the rate at which housing is being constructed.
Building costs today are a serious problem in relation to the construction of housing accommodation. The Minister of Trade and Commerce said on June 23 that "building costs have risen substantially since last September." That is an unfortunate fact, particularly with respect to certain classes of building materials. I place that statement alongside a statement appearing in the January quarterly issue of "Housing in Canada",


the publication of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, in which we find on page 23 this statement:
The trend in house-building costs showed a distinct tendency to level off in 1949.
That seemed to be the picture that confronted the house when the housing question was last discussed in this chamber at the end of November, seven months ago; and I think many members of the house indulged in some hopefulness on the subject, feeling that now, with a measure of stability in housing costs appearing, more people would find it within their means to build. But the fact that housing construction costs seem to be rising again does give cause for concern when we measure the still tremendous shortage of housing in Canada. The need of rental housing is still acute. Many of the purchases of new houses that are being made today are being made by people who are stretching every resource to buy or to build because rental accommodation is not available to them, or is not available to them at a rental that they can afford to pay. One views that fact with some degree of deep concern, because if we should encounter anything in the way of a recession in this country-and we hope that will not occur-and if land and building values should fall, it may leave many of these people, particularly the young people among them, with grave problems on their hands in financing these purchases on which they have embarked.
Marginal purchasers have been coming into the house purchasing market to a greater extent than previously. I do not mean to say that there are more purchasers in the market but I do say that, of those who are purchasing today, a much higher percentage falls within the class of marginal purchasers than ever before. We hope that the wage and salary levels in this country will be maintained so that those people will not be faced with a serious problem in meeting their obligations under their purchases.
The supply of building materials still presents some serious difficulties. Steel has been coming off control this year and we are told in the booklet "Supply of Building Materials in Canada: "Outlook, 1950", issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce, that most steel supplies, as they enter into house construction, are going to be available in greater quantities than previously. However, our familiar subject of nails is one that is still cause for some concern. On page 11 of this issue we read1:
Imports of finished nails have been heavy, increasing from 6,300 tons in 1948 to 13,300 tons in 1949. Canadian mills have also proceeded to manufacture nails at a higher rate.

Then this disquieting sentence appears at the conclusion of the paragraph:
However, wire nails and certain gauges of steel sheet and small sizes of pipe were still difficult to obtain in necessary quantities.
There are also some other kinds of building materials that are admittedly not in too plentiful supply. But the most serious problem confronting those engaged in house construction today, from the point of view of the supply of building materials, relates to lumber. As often happens, the scarcity of a commodity may not be general in all parts of the country; but certainly in the part of the country from which I come the scarcity of lumber is presenting serious problems. At page 6 of this booklet we read the following paragraph:
The domestic supply of lumber Is not expected to change materially in 1950-
And I interject here, Mr. Chairman, that this pamphlet was issued in February last. -and special types and grades may still be difficult to procure despite the fact that production may at least equal 1949 levels. Sales in the United States are expected to continue at a relatively high level throughout the year and any possible decrease in United Kingdom contracts may be taken up by that market. Besides this, manufacturers' inventories are at a low level and United States prices are appreciably above those in Canada. Therefore, it appears that prime quality lumber suitable for sale abroad may not be readily available in Canada throughout 1950. Export controls on lumber and wood building materials with the exception of pulp and fibre wallboard were discontinued at the end of last year.
The problem of lumber supply is assuming quite serious proportions in view of the way in which the market in the United States has been draining off some of the most suitable lumber in Canada for building purposes.
Mr. Chairman, let me now turn briefly to the subject of legislation. The amendments to the National Housing Act which were enacted by parliament at the end of November, 1949, came too late in that year to make much impression as yet. It had been hoped that, with the opening of the building season in earnest this spring, agreements might have been entered into which would provide for extensive use of the provisions of the new section 35 of the act. There have been difficulties in the way-the minister has referred to some of them- such as the necessity of negotiation with the provinces and the difficulties confronting many of the municipalities with whom, after all, these projects must be initiated. As one may fairly repeat on looking back, I think it is regrettable that those amendments were not introduced at a much earlier date. As to the municipalities, this committee must
Supply-Resources and Development recognize the fact that the municipalities- particularly those that are faced with the most acute housing	problems-have	a
variety of complex problems on their hands. The minister has referred to the shortage of serviced land. That situation is particularly serious in some of the larger urban municipalities and their suburban areas. For instance, in the city of Toronto-that is, metropolitan Toronto, greater Toronto-this is an extremely serious problem. It also has a relation to the other financial problems that these municipalities are facing, because many of the municipalities, particularly the suburban municipalities surrounding the large cities, are themselves faced with so many problems that the provision of serviced land itself offers to them in many cases problems with which they are not financially able to cope.
One welcomes the evidence that a number of the provinces have entered into agreement, and are prepared in this way to pave the way for the use of the provisions of section 35 of the act for the benefit of projects in certain of their municipalities.
I cannot forbear, sir, Irom expressing the hope, as I did when these amendments were under discussion in the house last November, that steps will be taken to broaden the provisions of section 12 of the act, so that it may not be more difficult for municipalities to proceed with redevelopment projects in crowded areas and slum areas than to proceed with development projects that do not involve the clearing of areas that have been built up in the municipality. You will remember, sir, that under section 35 the dominion contributes 75 per cent of the cost and bears 75 per cent of loss; whereas the province is called upon to bear only 25 per cent. But in the case of slum clearance projects or redevelopment projects, which are seriously needed in many of the urban areas, the provisions of section 12 remain, and the municipality must find 50 per cent of the cost of acquiring and clearing the land. I submit to the minister that the government must recognize the social and economic aspects of this problem, and that there is no justification for this discrimination between new development and redevelopment projects.
Sir, there is one final matter upon which I think the committee will wish to ask the minister for more information. As I followed his remarks none was given by the minister on this subject in his introductory statement. I am asking about the extent to which the new amendments to section 4 of the act in relation to second mortgages have been put to use.

Supply-Resources and Development
The minister did not give a very encouraging picture in regard to the mortgage lending operations under the National Housing Act. In fact he has said that, faced with rising building costs again this year, the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is not prepared to raise its lending values. One can sympathize with the corporation in this problem; one can frankly say that one does not wish to see the corporation participating in a process which may be inflationary in its nature; nevertheless, sir, unless the department presided over by the minister is prepared to say that this present rise in building costs is only very temporary, then I am afraid the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is going to have to face the facts. They will have to make up their minds whether this rise in building costs is to be shortlived, or whether it threatens to be of long duration; because, if it is of long duration, then I submit, sir, that the provisions of this act will be at least in part nullified by freezing the lending values of houses to be constructed under the terms of this act.
We had this problem in previous sessions and some of us had to complain strenuously that many of the beneficial provisions of the National Housing Act were denied that beneficial operation which parliament intended when it enacted those provisions, by such an administration of those provisions as has largely nullified their operation by insisting on writing down lending value. I have admitted that the problem is not free from difficulty. I see the difficulties facing the administration in this respect, but, sir, unless they are prepared to say that this present rise in building costs is to be very short-lived, then I am afraid they will simply have to accept the situation and raise lending values in keeping with the rise in building costs.
In that' regard one may well ask, Mr. Chairman, as to what use has been made in the meantime of the amendments to section 4 of the act. The committee will recall that new subsection 3 was added to that section of the act last November, in these words:
In addition to the joint loan referred to in this section a loan may be made by the corporation to the home owner or home purchaser in an amount not exceeding one-sixth of the joint loan if the cost of the house to the home owner or the purchase price thereof to the home purchaser is, in the opinion of the corporation, fair and reasonable.
You remember, sir, this was pictured to us as the government, through Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation going into the second mortgage field to supply a need that was represented in the widening split between the cost of house construction or house purchase on the one hand and the amount available by way of first mortgage under the National Housing Act up to the lending

value on the other hand. When this measure was under consideration some of us pointed out that while it purported to fill the gap and while the province of Ontario, for instance, which had entered this field nearly two years before, was in the face of this legislation now withdrawing from that field as there would be no further need for them to be in it, the efficacy of this section would depend very largely upon the interpretation and administration of it. Therefore I ask the minister whether he will give the committee some report on the operations of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation under that section, and in doing so I express the hope that that new provision to which great hope was attached in all quarters of the house-certainly much was made of it by the government in introducing the amendment-has not been nullified by rigidity in the administration of the act and of the section by those charged with administration in the department and in Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation; because if lending value is to be frozen, and rigid interpretation is to be given to the provisions of this section and of the sections in relation to lending value applied to the old first mortgage then, Mr. Chairman, the house might as well have spared itself some of the efforts put into amending this act in 1949.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, whether one agrees with the hon. member for Eglinton or not, it is evident that tonight he has offered some constructive remarks. He said there was no debate on housing at this session, and that no new housing legislation has been passed. I wonder seriously if he needs new legislation to get elevated inspiration for a fine speech?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I agree with many of the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Eglinton, and I shall not take the time of the committee to repeat those things with which I agree. There are however some aspects of the problem of housing which I suggest might well be underlined both from my own point of view and from that of the people in constituencies such as the one I have the honour to represent.
We have heard tonight, as we always hear when this subject comes up, a number of statistics. We have heard references to the legislation on the statute books. But the fact remains that despite statistics, despite legislation, despite the large number of very fine homes in Canada-and I, for one, am very happy to see more and more fine homes across this land-despite all those things, the fact remains that for thousands of our people

fine homes, even decent homes in which to live, are still dreams of the distant future.
Constituencies such as the one I represent have in them thousands of people who live in overcrowded conditions in the kind of housing that certainly does no credit to twentieth century civilization. I plead again for more of a social conscience in connection with this question, for greater realization on the part of the government that it is our collective responsibility as a people to do what we can to solve this social problem, and to see to it that all our people have a chance to live in decent homes.
To bring that down to some of the specific things that should be done, I should like to say a word about the matter of low-rental housing. I realize, as does the hon. member for Eglinton, that section 35 was written into the National Housing Act last fall to make provision for low-rental projects on a 75/25 basis. That basis involves the province putting up 25 per cent of the cost of such a project, the dominion putting up 75 per cent, and the two jurisdictions taking any loss that might follow in those proportions.
However, despite the fact that that legislation is there, provinces such as the one I come from have not seen fit to take advantage of it; and it has been represented to me that although some of the provinces feel that they might be able to stand 25 per cent of the loss involved in a low-rental housing project, they could not stand the financing of 25 per cent of the capital cost. I still hope that some projects under that plan will get going. Certainly there is pressure being exerted at all levels of government and by all groups of people in my province, and particularly in my city, to have the government of Manitoba enter this field. However, I think it becomes obvious already, even though the minister may say that we should give section 35 of the act more than six or seven months' trial, that it is not going to be the beginning of a great program of low-rental housing for the people of this country who need it.
I insist that when we talk about low-rental housing, particularly for the working people in industrial areas, it should be not just the kind of buildings that provide roofs over the heads of families, but rather it should be a modern layout that makes available to our workers and their families the best that modern architects, engineers and community planners can design for modern healthful and decent living.
I am one of those who last November welcomed the step taken in this legislation, but I submit that in the face of the problem, and in the face of the challenge that presents
Supply-Resources and Development itself to us as a civilized nation to do something in the field of housing, we have not even started.
In addition to this problem of more effective legislation in the matter of low-rental housing, it must also be pointed out, as has been done by the hon. member for Eglinton, that there is room for real improvement by way of redevelopment or slum clearance under section 12 of the act. There again the minister can say that the legislation is on the statute books-indeed, it has been on the statute books considerably longer than has section 35; indeed it has been there for the last six years. However, the amount of slum clearance and redevelopment of housing areas that has taken place under that legislation certainly is nothing to write home about.
Then, may I refer to the rising cost of building that has taken place particularly since export controls were taken off and Canadian lumber allowed to go freely to the higher priced market in the United States. The result has been that prices for lumber are rising in this country, too. I heard a news report over the radio, or saw it in the press not long ago, to the effect that it was hoped that these increased lumber prices would not result in a rise of more than two or three per cent in building costs. But when one thinks of two or three per cent in terms of $10,000 or $12,000, or whatever it costs to build a house today, he realizes it is quite a sum.
Somehow or other these percentage increases seem to have a way of pyramiding and making it more difficult for people to get decent homes. So whether it is in the field of low-rental housing for people who cannot afford to have their own homes, or in the field of home ownership, which is certainly desirable, the barriers which crop up seem to wipe out, almost before they are enjoyed, any of the advantages found in the legislation the government brings down from time to time.
I should like to ask the minister a question regarding the quality of lumber and building materials and also the inspection service that is available. It -has been represented to me that the urgency of the situation and the need people have to get lumber are such that there are cases of second-grade lumber being sold as first-grade, or at first-grade prices, thus adding to the cost of building and reducing the quality.
Surely our people deserve protection in this field. I would ask the minister whether Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are interesting themselves in this phase of the matter. I do not need to take more time
4226	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development to emphasize the importance of the problem. It is unfortunate that the layout of the session is such that we have not reached this important problem until what may be the next to the last day. I do urge however that hon. members in all quarters of the house, and the government in particular, look upon this question of housing not just as a case of putting a roof over the head of every Canadian, but rather as a real challenge to use all the ingenuity we possess and all the advances that have been made in architecture, engineering and community planning really to house our Canadian people at the standard they deserve.


Mr. Blackmore:: Mr. Chairman, with what has been said by the two previous speakers I agree, and I believe every other member of the house will also agree. Nevertheless that does not come anywhere near finding a solution to the problem, something which we all desire. The simple facts confronting us at the present time are that the cost of building a house, such as the great majority of the Canadian people deserve to have, is so high that they simply cannot afford it. The taxes on such a property will be so high that the income of the average Canadian will not be sufficient to enable him to pay such an amount. The cost will be so high that the Canadian of average income will be unable to pay for his home, so that whichever way he looks at it he stands to have a number of years of headaches and worry, and then lose his home.


An hon. Member:: Carried.


John Horne Blackmore: There are three or four Liberals who I hope will speak later on and have something more than "carried" to say in their speeches. What are we going to do about the problem? Has the minister given any thought to the possibility of purchasing prefabricated houses from Great Britain? It seems to me that not so long ago I read that Australia had made an agreement with Great Britain for a certain number of prefabricated houses to be delivered at a price far lower than it was possible for Australia to build comparable houses. It seems to me I heard that New Zealand had made a similar bargain with Great Britain. Has the minister given any thought to making an arrangement with Great Britain for prefabricated houses?
I should also like the minister to give the house some account of what he has been able to discover in his studies as to the possibility of using aluminum for prefabrication in Canada. Certainly we do not have to go without houses in this country because the lumbermen choose to run the price of lumber up so high that they render building economically impracticable. Can the minister tell us what he has found with respect to aluminum?


Robert Henry Winters: I do not know whether hon. members will wish me to assume that everybody has spoken and that I should deal with the questions they have raised now. The hon. member for Eglinton requested some information as to the effectiveness of the one-sixth additional loan provided under the act last year. As he said, it replaces the second mortgage that Ontario was making available. I think it can be said that the position the federal government has taken, which has enabled Ontario to withdraw from their second mortgage arrangement, has been entirely satisfactory to the government of Ontario, and I put that forth as evidence of-the fact that it has worked.
As I pointed out when introducing these estimates, some 8,800 units have been approved under part I of the act during the first four months of 1950 compared with 4,650 units in the same period of 1949, an increase of almost 90 per cent. I think it fair to say that can be attributed largely to the additional amount of loan made available by the revision of the act last year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: May I ask the minister if the additional one-sixth was made available in the case of each of the 8,800?


Robert Henry Winters: The additional one-sixth is made available for about 75 per cent of all houses that are qualifying for loans under the N.H.A. joint loan arrangements.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is about 6,600 of the 8,800.


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


Donald Methuen Fleming: And what was the figure for the previous year?


Robert Henry Winters: There were 4,650 units in the same period of the previous year. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre deplored the fact there was not sufficient development of low-cost subsidized housing. I say again, as I said last year, that the revision of the act, as enacted by parliament last year, is broad enough to enter that field of housing, as in fact we have done in Newfoundland, and are prepared to do in any other province that wishes to participate. The hon. member spoke about slum clearance. We realize that there are shortcomings in the application of the slum clearance section. It has not been as broadly applied as one might expect that it would be. If the hon. member will refer to page 7 of the annual report of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for 1949 he will see set out there, in what I consider to be a logical way, the reasons why the slum clearance section has not found broader application to date.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Will the minister say whether the government will reconsider the position it took last November with regard to amending section 12 to bring it into line with the percentages in section 35 in order to assist in redevelopment and slum clearance projects?


Robert Henry Winters: The section is under constant consideration. While I cannot of course give the committee any assurance that there will be amendments, I can say that it will be considered, as my hon. friend requests. The hon. member for Lethbridge asked about the use of aluminum. Aluminum has been used by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for siding, insulation, window frames and other incidental parts of houses. It has been used with satisfaction in most regions of Canada but there are some areas where, when aluminum is exposed to the air, it does not stand up too well. The seacoast is one of those areas, and aluminum has been used under those circumstances with only mediocre success.


John Horne Blackmore: Can the minister tell us whether he has been in contact with Great Britain to see whether or not the British can supply houses at a price lower than we are able to construct them in Canada?


Robert Henry Winters: We have not been in direct contact with England on that question. There is no evidence at hand to lead us to believe that they can supply houses cheaper than we can. In fact the fabrication of the house is not always the main problem in housing. As my hon. friend knows, the big problem in most instances is the provision of serviced land.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Reverting to the remark made by the minister a short time ago concerning the work done by his department in Newfoundland, I should like to refer to one of those associated with him of whose ability we have a high opinion and for whose interest in Newfoundland we are very grateful. I refer to the president of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. He was in the newest province quite recently. I believe he has concluded certain contracts and made certain arrangements for housing. Will the minister tell us exactly what has happened, and what Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation proposes to do in the future so far as the provision of houses is concerned?


Robert Henry Winters: As I said in general terms, we have entered into an agreement with the province of Newfoundland under section 35 of the act to provide 140 housing units. The basis of participation is 75 per cent by the 55946-267
Supply-Resources and Development federal government and 25 per cent by the government of Newfoundland. The undertaking is that the capital cost will be shared on that basis, and any operating losses that may accrue will also be shared on the same basis. The accommodation is being provided for people in the low income groups, and might be referred to as low rental housing. We have also entered into negotiations with Newfoundland for the servicing of one hundred acres-that is, the provision of water, sewers and all the other elements that go into servicing land-in the city of St. John's. Those are the only two projects that have been worked so far, but we are open to consider any proposals they may lay before us.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Exactly what does servicing mean? Does it mean only providing water and sewers, or also putting up the houses?


Robert Henry Winters: The project I refer to, in
connection with the servicing of one hundred acres, does not include the building of the houses. It has to do with the provision of services normally supplied by a municipality. It is understood that there are builders in Newfoundland who would be prepared to go ahead on a private enterprise basis and construct houses on the land made available by these services.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is that part of the area known as the St. John's housing corporation area?


Robert Henry Winters: That is right.


John Horne Blackmore: I find one remark by the minister very difficult to comprehend. He says the main difficulty is in getting serviced land. That does not make sense to me. I can understand how he might have difficulty getting serviced land in a city like Ottawa, but there are thousands of small towns of 1,500, 2,000 or 2,500 throughout this country that could supply so much serviced land that I do not believe the minister could find enough material in Canada to build the houses; and these towns would be delighted to have more people come there. What is the minister doing about that? Taking my own district, we have towns like Raymond, Picture Butte and Stirling, all in my constituency. There would be no trouble getting serviced lancl there. In view of what I have just brought to his attention, then, how does the statement by the minister make any sense?


Robert Henry Winters: I am differentiating, of
course, between land and serviced land. As everyone knows, plenty of land is available in Canada; but land with the services provided, water, sewers, sidewalks and the like, is not available in the amount required for building houses.
4228	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development


John Horne Blackmore: Still the minister's remarks seem palpably unrealistic to me. The people who lived in this country one hundred and fifty years ago did hot have any of the things he is talking about, yet they carried on, raised their families and made the Canada we have today. Surely it is not necessary to have all these services before we can build houses to shelter the young Canadians who are growing up in our country today. What is the matter with houses in Raymond, Picture Butte and all these other little towns all over Canada; and why cannot houses be built there? Can the minister explain that? For the first forty years of my life I lived without a sidewalk, and I imagine my sons and daughters can do the same. Does the minister not build houses in any places where there are not sidewalks, sewers, water and all the rest of it?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I realize that many houses are going up on land which is not serviced, and that many fine people will grow up in those houses, just as my hon. friend grew up in one. But in this matter of housing we are dealing with municipalities, and, by and large, have to meet their wishes. If they say they do not want houses to go up on land that is not fully serviced, under normal circumstances it is not within our power to proceed. We have to conform to the wishes of the municipalities.


Gordon Francis Higgins: What is the arrangement with respect to the servicing of this one hundred acres, as far as cost is concerned?


Robert Henry Winters: I thought I had outlined that, but perhaps I did not make it clear. The cost of servicing the land-that is, acquiring, assembling and servicing-will be on the 75 per cent 25 per cent participation basis. If the land is then built upon by private contractors the cost of servicing the land will become a charge against the houses then built.


William Joseph Browne: Since the development referred to by the minister is in the constituency I have the honour to represent, I should like to thank him for the interest he has shown in it. It is going to be a great blessing to the people who will be moved from the slum areas *to this new development. It is a good beginning, and I am sure the houses will be more than welcome. Through the kindness of the minister I saw the plan, and I noticed that a playground is to be provided, which will be a great benefit. I am only sorry it was not possible to have more land attached to the houses, and I hope that when another development of this kind is being considered it will be in an area where more land will be

available. This is a good beginning, and I know the people of St. John's are very grateful.


Gordon Graydon: Is this the item under which normally the minister would expect to answer inquiries concerning the sale of wartime houses generally?


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, under this item we would consider those questions.


Gordon Graydon: I want to ask just this general question, which may only call for a general answer. What is the policy of the department relative to the sale of wartime houses to the tenants now occupying them, particularly in various parts of Ontario?


Robert Henry Winters: Generally speaking the policy is that houses built during 1947 and prior to that are being made available to veterans on a sale basis.


Gordon Graydon: To veterans?


Robert Henry Winters: Generally they are the
tenants.


John Horne Blackmore: How large must a community be before it is eligible to have houses built in it? Will the minister build houses in a hamlet or village, or must a community have a population of 1,500, for example? I am still troubled about all those services.


Robert Henry Winters: The only requirements we have specified is mutual acceptability as between the federal and provincial governments. If a provincial government were to say it was satisfied to have houses built in a municipality, no matter how small, and asked us to proceed, the chances are that if the project were mutually satisfactory we would do so.


Stanley Howard Knowles: With respect to houses the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has for rent to veterans, has any consideration been given to enlarging the government's policy in order to make those houses available to veterans of world war I, at least in certain cases? I ask this question on the basis of the experience of a world war I veteran in Vancouver, who says that in the area where he wishes to rent a house- he is being put out of his place and therefore needs something else right away- Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation have houses vacant but refuse to rent or sell them to veterans of world war I. This case was placed in the hands of the hon. member for Vancouver East, who is now in Geneva. He took it up with Mr. Mansur, president of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and of course the only answer Mr. Mansur was able to give was that the government had laid it down as a policy that


these houses were to be restricted to veterans of world war II. I understand the reasons for that, but I am wondering if consideration has been given to modifying the policy so as to include veterans of world war I, particularly if, as this correspondent says, there are vacant houses in the district in question.


Robert Henry Winters: Mr. Chairman, the policy of the government, as approved by this parliament, is to make the houses available only to veterans of world war II.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Is that in any statute?


Robert Henry Winters: No, it is through the vote that parliament makes of funds available for building the houses for veterans of world war II.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I will have to be shown that there has been any decision made by parliament to limit wartime housing to veterans of world war II. Even Mr. Mansur does not blame it on parliament. He says it is a policy laid down by the goyernment. I believe that if the minister will consult with the Minister of Trade and Commerce he will find that this was laid down by government regulation. I hope that matter might be reconsidered.


Robert Henry Winters: No, Mr. Chairman, I think it has been clearly understood by this house, ever since the housing was being considered following world war II, that these houses were being built for the veterans of world war II.


John Horne Blackmore: I have listened with a great deal of disappointment to the answers the minister has given. No doubt those are the best answers he can give, Mr. Chairman, but the people of Canada want houses. They do not want to wait 20 years to get them. I say that up to the present time the minister, in explaining the difficulties with which he is confronted, indicates that he will never catch up with the need for houses if he has a thousand years to do it. He had better sit down and plan a real housing program under which the Canadian people will have a real chance to have houses.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The Deputy Chairman:: Perhaps I should point out at this time that there is a further supplementary item, number 820, to extend the application of the terms of vote 562 relating to the housing corporation.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
820. To hereby extend the application of the terms of vote 562 in the main estimates. 1950-51, to include the acquisition of land, the installation of services and improvements in respect thereof, the purchase of building materials and the construction or conversion of housing projects for residents of Deep
55946-2674	'
27, 1950	4229
Supply-Resources and Development
River, Ontario, and to authorize commitments against future years for the purposes of the said vote to amount of $14,208,000, $1.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What does the $1 stand for? The note says it is to extend the application of the terms of vote 562.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The experience the house had last year with these votes of $1 has put the house on its guard against any repetition. Has the minister some explanation as to why this item is required? I refer to the fact that there was a vote of $1 under which the government proceeded to expend great sums of money in purchases through blocked currencies abroad available to the government. I think where we have an item of $1 the house ought to have a full explanation of it.


Robert Henry Winters: The reason for this particular item is that it seeks future commitment authority to spend money on behalf of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. It is thought that perhaps, under the $75 million we have just passed, there might not be an opportunity for spending the full amount available against the projects which I cited in presenting that vote to the house. This seeks authority to spend some of that money against other projects than the ones to which I have referred.


Percy Chapman Black: May I ask the minister why special consideration is given in this way to Deep River, Ontario. The explanation reads:
[DOT] [DOT] [DOT] housing projects for residents of Deep River, Ontario, and to authorize commitments against future years ...
I ask the minister why Deep River is specially selected.


Robert Henry Winters: Because, Mr. Chairman, in the statement I just made I said we are seeking authority from the house now to spend certain moneys on projects to which I had referred under the main $75 million item. At Deep River certain houses will be built for the employees of the national research council, and this item seeks authority of the house to spend money on that project.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does it come down to tH i that the terms of vote No. 562 are not as broad as the minister first thought would be required, and that in effect vote No. 820 is not designed to increase the amount so much as to widen the terms of vote No. 562?


Robert Henry Winters: That is, in general, quite correct. Deep River was a project that developed after item No. 562 was made up.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are no details of these items. Has the minister had estimates prepared indicating how much of the total of

Supply-Resources and Development $75 million it is proposed should be spent on the various projects mentioned in the two items?


Robert Henry Winters: It is estimated that the Deep River project will cost $1,108,000, and that that can be obtained from the total $75 million vote.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What about a break-down of the $75 million in relation to those projects?


Robert Henry Winters: I gave that earlier, Mr. Chairman.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The minister did not give the amount; he gave the various uses to which the money would be put, but did not indicate the amount for each.


Robert Henry Winters: I did give the amounts, Mr. Chairman.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am sorry I missed them. I am not quite clear yet, Mr. Chairman, as to the significance of the concluding words of item 820, which are as follows:
. . . and to authorize commitments against future years for the purposes of the said vote to an amount of $14,208,000.
From the last answer the minister gave, I understood him to indicate that the amount being made available for this coming year, and chargeable against the $75 million voted in item 562, is something just over $1 million. What is the explanation for the reference to the $14,208,000?


Robert Henry Winters: The $14 million will be made up of D.N.D. schools, $1,600,000; non-urban units for Department of National Defence, $3,855,000; D.N.D. units in remote areas, $6,145,000; and permanent improvements to war workers' and servicemen's houses, $1,500,000.


Donald Methuen Fleming: How does this relate to the program for this present fiscal year? As I understand, we are not being asked to provide money in these votes for any year beyond the present year; am I correct?


Robert Henry Winters: That is right, Mr. Chairman, we are simply asking for a commitment to undertake this additional work which, as my hon. friend says, was not contemplated when the item in the main estimates was made up.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What I want to be quite clear about is what the house is being asked to do. It is being asked to vote something over $1 million this year so far as Deep River is concerned, but I trust there is no suggestion that the passing of item 820 carries with it approval to expend in the future $14,208,000; am I right in that?


Robert Henry Winters: That is correct, Mr. Chairman,
yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall we now consider item 400? Order. I should like all hon. members to give all their attention to the study of the estimates. With all the conversation that is going on, it is extremely difficult for speakers to be heard by the Chair or by the minister who has to give his answers. It is also difficult for hon. members to understand the chairman. We shall now revert to item 400 on page 48.
Housing-
400. Emergency shelter-administration, $300,000.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item
carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Donald Methuen Fleming: 1 think the minister should have something to say to us on this item of emergency shelter.


Robert Henry Winters: The amount of $300,000 here for emergency shelter is made up as follows: administration expenses, $3,000; projects operated by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, $97,000; municipal and university projects, settlement of leases, restoration of leased land, $100,000; payments re commitments on account of structural maintenance, $100,000. Those are the moneys required to operate the emergency shelters which are still operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and to restore land to the condition in which it was when taken over for emergency housing, at the time the emergency housing is closed up and the land is returned to its previous owners.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Can the minister not be more informative in his statement? He has not told us where they are located or much about them. Those are general statements.


Robert Henry Winters: In 1945 the administration of the emergency shelter regulations was a responsibility of the wartime prices and trade board. The principal functions of the administration were to expedite the release of government buildings suitable for conversion to emergency shelter and the bringing of vacant houses into occupancy. By order in council P.C. 7502, of December 28, 1945, the administration was transferred to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. As the housing situation became more acute in early 1946, a more positive approach was adopted in emergency shelter matters. Municipalities were directly encouraged to anticipate their shelter needs and to establish a "cushion" of shelter against future demands. To this end the administration began to give financial

assistance to municipalities in connection with "out-of-pocket" expenses of providing emergency shelter. A program was initiated to assist universities to provide emergency shelter for married veteran students and financial aid was granted to universities to cover the cost of providing such accommodation. The pattern of financial assistance was generally grants of one-half the cost-


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not wish to interrupt the minister but perhaps we can shorten this a little bit.


Alphonse Fournier: You knew all that.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Yes. That is not what I asked the minister. I did not ask him to go back and review the history of emergency shelter administration. I think we are familiar with that. What I was getting at-


An hon. Member:: Finish it.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order.


Donald Methuen Fleming: There are some hon. members on the other side, Mr. Chairman, who apparently wish to hear the minister's statement. I thought I was saving the minister some time, but if the hon. members wish to hear it I will not interfere with him. What I hope to hear from the minister some time is some information with relation to the particular items he mentioned as making up the figure of $300,000. He has not indicated one place to which reference was made. Can he not give us some idea just what is the exact scope of the operations under this item? That is all we are asking for.


Robert Henry Winters: There are still under emergency shelter about ten projects on direct account operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and about one hundred that are operated jointly by the corporation and provincial and municipal governments. I can get for my hon. friend a list of them and of where they are. I do not have it before me at the moment, but I can see that he is given it.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Can expenditures under this item be made on all those? Is that correct? I did not get that impression from the statement.


Robert Henry Winters: Yes, that is correct; for maintenance, where dry rot and deteriorating elements such as that are setting in. Also, as I mentioned before, for restoring the land to the same condition it was in when it was taken over for emergency shelter purposes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Resources and Development Special projects branch-
393. Trans-Canada highway division, $300,000.
Percy Chapman Black: I have a question or two to ask the minister, but I am not going to delay the committee as this item was fairly well discussed the other night. There may be some other members, however, who want further information. I want to be brought up to date. I want to know if there is any further communication with the province of Nova Scotia and whether that province has entered into the agreement with respect to the construction of the trans-Canada highway. I should also like to know what proportion of this $20 million that is being provided this year by the federal parliament for the construction of the trans-Canada highway is being earmarked and set aside for the province of Nova Scotia, assuming that an agreement will be entered into. The province of Nova Scotia has announced the location of the trans-Canada highway although we may not all agree with the decision. I said the other night that the Nova Scotia legislature had passed legislation giving authority to build this highway and it would appear that the difficulty with regard to their not entering into the agreement and not having the work proceeded with must be the fault of the minister or of the federal government pending the production by him of the correspondence between himself and Nova Scotia. I should like an answer from the minister before this item passes.


Robert Henry Winters: On the question of allocating funds for the province of Nova Scotia, I may say that there has been no attempt to allocate funds for any particular province. We have agreed to undertake to pay for work as it is completed. As I said earlier, we will pay for back work as new work is completed. My hon. friend asked the other night if I would table the correspondence we have had with the province of Nova Scotia. I undertook at that time to contact the government of Nova Scotia. I have done that, but I have not yet heard from them as to whether or not they have changed the stand they took when I put the same question to them previously.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have just one question. Are you going to have a special trans-Canada highway marker? The reason I ask that question is that in the United States there are such markers on trans-continental roads and I wonder if we are going to have them here, because they are helpful.


Robert Henry Winters: During our conferences we have said that we would leave to the provinces matters of that nature but that if we could help out in any way by co-ordinating the efforts of the provinces, we should be glad to do it. We also expressed the view

Supply-Resources and Development that the Goods Roads Association would also be pleased to have uniformity with respect to such matters.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I should like to ask the minister if the federal government or his department intends to build any of this road themselves, or is it all being built by the different provinces?


Robert Henry Winters: The only part of the highway that the federal government itself will build is the highway through national parks.


Mr. Ferrie:: I want to bring to the attention of the minister the road that has been proposed through Manitoba, Saskatchewan and up through Alberta. When you consider that, I think you will realize that the point where this highway is going is away from the populated area of the three western provinces. I should like to bring to his attention the fact that from Winnipeg west we have a railroad that belongs to us, to the people of Canada. The highway that is to go through the three provinces in western Canada is to go down along the southern route, which does not help our own railroad. The highway should really and truly head in a northwesterly direction from Winnipeg. It should start out from the bridge at Lock-port and head west till it hits the C.N.R. railroad. It should then hit northwest right through Dauphin and Kamsack. If the road were built that way it would help in another direction during the course of its construction. It would help with regard to the railroad bridges. There are railroad bridges that will have to be built very soon along the Canadian National railroad. They could be put in and serve a double purpose. There is the one across the Assiniboine between Dauphin and Kamsack. There is another one between Humboldt and Saskatoon at Clark's crossing. The highway should follow the Canadian National railroad right from Dauphin. It should run in a northwesterly direction right clean through to Edmonton.
One of the important sections of the agreement was that the road had to go by the shortest route. The route that the highway is taking from Winnipeg west is not the shortest route. It is wrong for the government to spend that large amount of money going down through that dried out area, through a part of the three western provinces where it will not serve the population that it would serve if it were three hundred miles farther north.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Look at the kind of government you have.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: So far as governments are concerned, we have three different kinds in


western Canada. I am not going to say what I think with regard to the payment being made on highways that are not and never will be up to the standard that we expect in western Canada and in all of Canada for a $300 million expenditure.
This money should be expended to give the best service to everybody in Canada. The southern route is not the best route, and it is not the route that will serve the people of Canada best. The southern route goes within fifty miles of No. 2 highway in the United States. That is not rendering a right and proper service to the people of Canada. The development of Canada today, and more especially in western Canada, is in the northern areas. The northern area is the area that will be developed. If anything should be done, then this highway should be headed in a northwestern direction from the big city of Winnipeg to the city that is going to be one of the biggest cities in Canada, namely, Edmonton.
Let me say something else. We should have put the pipe line down alongside the railway. The three should run together, the railway, the highway and the pipe line. Why should they run together? For the simple reason that the people of Canada have a railroad that is running up deficits, and it would help to pay the deficit.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Why did you vote against us?


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: The taxes that the people are going to have to pay because of the deficit of the Canadian National Railways could be very easily taken care of by a good highway alongside the people's railroad. The people's railroad is the Canadian National railroad. Where this highway is going belongs to the Canadian Pacific Railway. It is time we began to realize that the people's money should be spent where it can render the greatest service to the greatest number of people in Canada.
I want to bring to the minister's attention- and I see he has gone and has left a substitute. If his assistant were to do what is really and truly in his mind I am sure he would see that that highway went the way that I am asking that it should go, namely, through the Yellowhead pass.


Some hon. Members:: Ask him.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: Put him on the spot.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Order.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: Hon. gentlemen on my left say: "Put him on the spot." I say to them: I am not that kind of a boy. So far as you fellows are concerned you think that you can say certain things.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: You don't know the way to vote.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: I don't have to vote the way that you tell me to, but you have to vote the way you are told.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: You have not got a mind of your own.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: I want to bring to the attention of the parliamentary assistant-


Lewis Elston Cardiff: If you have, you don't know how to use it?


An hon. Member:: The provinces choose the route.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: I am not talking about the way in which the provinces choose the route; I am not talking about that at all. We know that the province chooses the route. We know that the province has done what we think should not be done. I am talking in this house not for the provinces but what I feel is for the good of Canada. I want to say this. I have been a municipal man in this country for many years. I have come to realize that today Canada is on wheels, and we need good roads. If these gentlemen to my left want to know something-


An hon. Member:: We do not want to know anything.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: No, you don't want to know anything. You never did anything but talk, in Ontario, as long as I have known Canada. And as far as this highway is concerned, I want to make it definitely clear that we have produced in western Canada, and these gentlemen on my left know that we have produced and done things in western Canada which have made them very well off, so that they could have good roads in eastern Canada. They have them in Ontario, and they have them there because they get the money from us in western Canada.
[Inaudible interruption.]
As one hon. member says, we never had money in western Canada. I want to tell hon. gentlemen that between 1920 and 1946 we produced in western Canada ten billion bushels of wheat. Who got the money for it? Yes, who got the money? The people of Ontario and Quebec; they got it.


Mr. Adamson:: Boo! boo!


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: You can boo as much as you like, but I want to tell you that so far as you are concerned you have had your benefits from the people of western Canada. And I can tell you a little more, but I don't want to.
Supply-Resources and Development


Agar Rodney Adamson: Tell me everything.


Gladstone Mansfield Ferrie: Maybe I would fill your ears too full. So far as we are concerned in western Canada, we want a highway for that part of our country. We will not have the money to provide a highway of the standard we should have. Therefore we have to come to the federal authorities for help. If that highway is to be in the southern part of the province it will cost a great deal of money; that money will be spent down there in the building of the highway, and the people in the northern part of the province will be taxed to keep the highway in condition. Only a limited amount of money can be taxed in western Canada for highway purposes.
In Saskatchewan alone we have more highway service than Manitoba and Alberta put together. We have to provide highway facilities to more people than use such facilities. I want to bring this to the attention of the minister, that it is going to be a very serious thing for the people of Saskatchewan. It does not matter which government is in power in that province, because only a certain amount of money can be spent on highway construction. I am asking the minister to see that something is done to provide a highway system in the northern part of the three western provinces.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: They will not pay any attention to you; you do not vote the way you think.


Mr. Ward:: Mr. Chairman, it is not for nothing that I rise to delay the passage of this item, and particularly at this stage of the session when I know all hon. members wish to finish the work. Indeed, I believe many of them have made reservations for their passage home.
However, I am so dissatisfied with the terms of the agreement, from the point of view of the dominion government and the federal treasury, that I feel we are justified in delaying the passage of the item until we have had some further discussion. Had the minister been here I should have liked to ask him three questions, and the first would be this: Are the terms of the agreement being lived up to by the provinces?
From evidence gathered to date it is my understanding that those terms are not being lived up to, and nothing is being done to see that they carry out their side of the agreement. That agreement calls for certain specifications and, secondly, that it shall follow the shortest feasible route. I am not particularly interested in Ontario, but I am
4234	HOUSE OF
Supply-Resources and Development told that the route as laid out in this province is 160 miles longer than it should be. Certainly that is not carrying out the terms of the agreement.


Mr. Warren:: Keep to your own province.


William John Ward: Coming to those provinces in western Canada in which I am most interested, I find that the route laid down and accepted under the terms of the agreement is one hundred miles longer than would have been necessary had it taken a more northerly course, and a course which would have been more in keeping with the hopes and dreams of the Canadian people. Certainly that is true of the people in western Canada.
As was pointed out by the hon. member for Mackenzie, according to reports which have been made the route is laid out along the southern part of the three prairie provinces in what might be called the dust bowl, within fifty miles of the international boundary. Just over that boundary line to the south there are several of what might be described as No. 1 highways.
We in Canada should build a trans-Canada highway worthy of the title. What could be more embarrassing than for us to proceed in a manner whereby we would accept, as I believe some governments are expecting the federal government to do, number two and number three grade highways as part of the trans-Canada system. We would end up with the federal treasury paying 75 per cent of the cost and still not have a highway worthy of the name.
To show that this dissatisfaction did not arise since we came to this session of parliament, or since the item appeared in the estimates, I should like to read a letter which appeared in one of the Winnipeg papers several months ago. It was in reply to an editorial that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press and indicates that our satisfaction with the agreement certainly is not all that might be desired. I shall tell you who wrote the letter after I have finished reading it. It reads:
Commendations are in order for the keen interest the Free Press is taking in the proposed trans-Canada highway. In your leading editorial of December 1, 1949, however, you have left at least some of your readers rather confused as to just where you do stand on the all-important issue of standard plus location.
Then he quotes the editorial:
"The new highway has been too much discussed in terms of parochial benefits and not enough in terms of nationhood."
The letter continues:
And, further on in your editorial you state: "As far as Manitoba is concerned one-third of the work has already been done." Where the confusion arises, Mr. Editor, is as to which road you are referring to."


I pause here to point out that the one-third of the highway through Manitoba referred to in the editorial is the portion from Winnipeg to Brandon. The letter continues:
Surely not the present No. 1 highway from Winnipeg to Brandon for if this at best third-rate highway is to be the standard of a trans-Canada or coast to coast highway, then God forbid that we should be so nationally indiscreet, so prejudiced, so short-sighted as to think that we can fool other Canadians and much less Americans, by designating a third-rate highway by a first-rate name.
If we are to keep our Canadians travelling east and west in Canada and attract Americans to do the same we will have to do better than that. As the writer sees it, the thing that is bedevilling the issue in Manitoba and likely in most other provinces is the painful amount of selfish parochialism. As you so well put it, Mr. Editor, we must, if the highway is to justify the expenditure, make it so good in standard and location as to be not only a practical alternative to the highways of the United States: it must be even more attractive, more appealing.
^ To continue with your editorial, what does the "shortest practical east-west route consistent with the needs of the provinces" mean? Does it mean a wandering road, meandering here and there to take in as many local communities and constituencies as possible? If the reports we get here are even half true that is exactly what some provincial governments would do.
For example, reports reaching Ottawa, in some cases from provincial government level, are to the effect that the route already chosen by them is through the extreme south or dust bowl of the prairie provinces, and will meander around to the extent of lengthening the distance over the three prairie provinces by more than a hundred miles-
And that is correct.
-in excess of what would be necessary if a more northerly route was taken-
That is what the hon. member for Mackenzie suggested.
-and one eminently more desirable, and passing as it would through our wooded areas, closer to our many beautiful lakes surrounded with summer resorts, and above all closer to our magnificent western parks second to none.
I might point out that the number of people who visited Riding Mountain national park in Manitoba last year almost exceeded the number who visited Banff, and the way it is progressing perhaps in another year or two it will be Canada's No. 1 park. Yet we are going to skip it, not go near it. Apparently we do not want the public to see it. The letter continues:
Yes, Mr. Editor, politics and shortsighted parochial benefits may, if left unchecked, bedevil and destroy the hopes and dreams of millions of Canadians in the pleasure and economic benefits to be derived from a real trans-Canada highway.
There is a world of truth in that statement. As the highway is now laid out through western Canada there are no trees, lakes or parks. Neither is there any fishing or boating. There is nothing to attract anyone. To go back a few years to the period

of drought in Saskatchewan-and there are some from Saskatchewan who will remember this better than I do-I recall driving through that province on one occasion when I had to drive most of the way from the Manitoba boundary to Regina with my car in low gear in order to plow through the sand that was blowing across the country. Is that the show we want to put on for our United States friends and others when they visit our part of the country? I do not think so.
If we take the more northerly route we can save 100 miles in the distance across western Canada and we would tap some of the finest lakes in the country. Although I represent the district in which Dauphin is located, I am not particularly interested whether the road goes that way, but if it does then it will pass through timber country where there are many fine summer resorts and good fishing and boating. In the district of Grand View and the Duck mountain area there are eight or ten beautiful lakes. The mountain rises 2,700 feet above sea level. It is a wooded area with fine spruce, jackpine and other types of trees. Last year the provincial government constructed a good highway to Duck mountain. There are many beautifully treed lakes around the mountain. There are lakes like lake Laurier, named after Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Blue lake, as blue as the ocean, Child's lake, Wellman lake, and Jack-fish lake. They are all good fishing and boating lakes with excellent summer resorts, but we are going to skip all this.
The more northerly route would then proceed west to the region of Madge lake in the constituency of the hon. member for Mackenzie where there are beautiful summer resorts and lovely wooded country. Then it would continue westward to Saskatoon and Edmonton, and last but not least, the Alaska highway and the Yellowhead pass. There is everything to attract the public to travel over a route in the more northerly part of our western provinces, while there is nothing at all in the south. There must be an answer, and that is what I want to ask the minister. I should like to know why the terms of the agreement are being ignored, why the shortest practical route is not being followed, and why we are accepting third-rate highways, referred to in the letter which I read as a part of the trans-Canada highway. It would appear to me that we will end up with no trans-Canada highway at all. It is so ridiculous to think that out of the conglomeration of bits and scraps of roads across Canada we are going to build a trans-Canada highway and the dominion treasury is going to pay for it.
We have undertaken to pay 50 per cent of the cost of roads already constructed, and 55946-268
Supply-Resources and Development many of them are already worn out. I know they are in the province of Manitoba. They are only third-rate highways, and that is no reflection upon that province because they are just as good there as they are in most other provinces, and probably better than some. What we will have will be a highway that will not be worthy of the name "trans-Canada", just as the letter pointed out. Could anything be more embarrassing to the travelling public, to Mr. and Mrs. America who come to Canada to travel over our new highway, only to find that instead of the highway they had dreamed of and heard of up here in Canada, they must travel on only a third rate road? I can imagine Mr. and Mrs. America coming to Manitoba, perhaps from the northwest states, intending to go west over our trans-Canada highway, and coming to the city of Winnipeg. As the highway is laid out now it could not follow a more tortuous route, taking people right through the heart of the city. What could be more ridiculous? They would be lost before they got out of Winnipeg. Then when they had travelled another forty miles west Mr. America would think surely they must be on the wrong highway. Mrs. America would say, "No, the sign says trans-Canada highway." So they drive on and at the next town inquire where they missed the trans-Canada highway, only to be told that they are still on it.
Then they drive on through the sandhills, over a second or third class highway to Brandon. When they get there they find that the road takes a sharp turn down a steep hill crossing a long, narrow bridge, with room for only two cars, over the C.P.R. tracks. Again they will be lost before they get out of Brandon. When they do. get out of that city, what do they find? Talk about a dog's hind leg; no dog had a leg as crooked as the route from Brandon to the Saskatchewan boundary. Then when they get to Saskatchewan it is still worse; and that is to be the trans-Canada highway.
It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that if we are going to spend $300 million on a highway we should start right. There may be an answer; there may be some reason for the rush to build the trans-Canada highway out of these bits of roads we now have. If there is we should be told the answer; but I do say this question should have been fully discussed on the floor of parliament before any agreement was entered into or a dollar was pledged. I do not want to delay the committee, though many other things could be said in opposition to the proposed route. The trans-Canada highway should be better

Supply-Resources and Development than the other highways; it should be something that would be a credit to Canada, that would make those travelling over it want to come back again and again to see our country. For goodness sake let us put it through that part of the country which has some attraction for tourists, not through the dust bowl of western Canada.
I am told the situation in Ontario is just as bad as anywhere else, and perhaps a little worse. I am told that parochialism has so bedevilled the plan in Ontario that they are taking the highway away down around by Peterborough. The hon. member for Peterborough West must be a good1 pleader to have the highway extended 160 miles further than it should be.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is a new highway, and they have to come to Peterborough, which is the best part of Canada.


William John Ward: That is just an example of what the editorial meant when it referred to provincialism and parochialism. Why, the way the highway wanders around western Canada, nearly every cabinet minister has had it come through his constituency; and we are asked to vote $300 million to build a road like that, which some day will bring us terrific embarrassment.
I do not know whether these words will do any good. I very seldom speak in the house because I have discovered that talking does not do much good. About eighty-five per cent of the speeches made this session were not listened to by anyone, and that is pretty well true of every session. I do my work outside, where I hope it is more effective. I made every appeal possible to the minister to try to prevent this thing happening, but the agreements were signed. I noticed that someone down in Nova Scotia was hesitating about signing it. Well, if that man belongs to the provincial government there is something wrong with his head if he hesitates to sign this agreement, because if ever anything was loaded in favour of the provinces, this is.
I have no objection in the world to the federal government giving the provinces some money for the construction of roads. That is all right, but let us not call those roads a trans-Canada highway. If we do we will only fool ourselves and others. If we want to give the provinces money to help them build roads, all right; but when we set out to build a trans-Canada highway let us build one worthy of this country. We are a great country, a big country, a wealthy country. We prate about our standards, our prestige in international affairs, and so on. Let us build a highway that will be a credit

to Canada, that both Canadians and Americans will talk about and be proud of. Let us not build a road that will be forever an embarrassment to all of us.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The hon. member who has just taken his seat wondered why the highway should go through Peterborough. I believe No. 7 highway was selected because it is practically new; it has been paved and is almost as smooth as the rug on the floor of this chamber. It goes through the centre of the greatest tourist area in Canada, through Peterborough, Victoria and Lindsay and up through the Muskoka lakes. By going through Peterborough the people of Toronto and other highly populated sections have a chance to reach that highway without having to travel a great many more miles.


Mr. Stewarl (Winnipeg North):: In view of the representations that have been made, does the parliamentary assistant think the trans-Canada route should go through Edmonton?


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am going to help the parliamentary assistant answer that question; we have been friends for a long time, and I am sure he will be grateful. It does seem to me that we are wasting a great deal of time. This matter has been settled for so long that perhaps many of us have forgotten. To hear some people speak you would think they had never heard of Banff or Lake Louise, but in spite of their short memories those two most popular resorts in Canada are still doing business. I was interested in hearing the last speaker tell us about the attractions of his constituency, and I am quite prepared to admit them; I am sure it is the garden of the world. He forgot two of the main attractions on the route he suggested, however; one is gophers, and the other is mosquitoes.


George Matheson Murray: It is too late now to change the decision to permit the province to decide the route, but the natural and proper route for the trans-Canada highway east and west is through Edmonton to the city of Prince Rupert. That would join the great Cariboo highway on the one hand, and the Alaska highway to the north. Tonight the Pacific ocean is the centre of world attention, and Prince Rupert, as my hon. friend from Skeena would say, is two or three days closer to the ports of Asia than any other port on the American continent. It is a strategic city, a city of great promise in the future from an industrial angle. The proper place for the trans-Canada highway is to bisect Canada at depth, and pass through the city of Edmonton through the priceless tourist area of Jasper to Prince George and to the seaport of Prince Rupert.


Mr. Prudham:: I should like to say a few words, but I am not going to become involved in the controversy over the route. The specifications laid down at the dominion-provincial * conference last December are being rigidly adhered to by the provinces. I would remind hon. members that the agreement specifies that the route shall not only be the shortest, but the shortest practical route.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I would be glad if the newest province's share of the trans-Canada highway could be carried by somebody other than the newest province. One day this week the minister announced that the specifications for the Newfoundland part of it were going to be exactly the same as the specifications for all other provinces. When the provincial minister of public works came here in April to sign the contract, he said he could not sign it because he felt the specifications could not be met owing to the cost. I should like to ask the parliamentary assistant what has happened to enable those specifications to be adhered to, and who is meeting the cost, if any?


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, I understand that in the case of Newfoundland, certain modifications of the specifications are now being considered under the agreement. It will still be a serviceable highway, but not of the standard required in more densely populated centres.


Gordon Francis Higgins: You do not mean to tell me that the minister's statement was not correct?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian Government Travel Bureau-
399. To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,514,421.
Clayton Wesley Hodgson: There is a large item in this vote for advertising and publicity, amounting to nearly a million dollars. Will the parliamentary assistant tell us where this advertising is being conducted?


Jean-François Pouliot: Before there is an answer, may I say something about Mr. Leo Dolan, who is in charge of the travel bureau. He has done an excellent job of advertising Canada in the United States. Due to his efforts-


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I asked the parliamentary assistant to answer this question.


Jean-François Pouliot: My hon. friend is not alone in the house, and while the parliamentary assistant weighs the argument he presented, I do not see why another member of parliament has not the right to speak. The hon. member who has put the question has no 55916-268 \
Supply-Resources and Development mortgage on the time of the house. He has an opportunity, in common with other members, to ask his question, and the parliamentary assistant has a right to answer whenever he feels he has to do so. In the meantime another member of parliament has unquestionably the right to say what e has to say about a matter of this kind involving an expenditure of a million and a half dollars.
I recall the time when another party was in power, and we had the travel bureau. A large amount was spent under Mr. Manion, who was the leader of the Conservative party. He appreciated the work that was done by the travel bureau, and believed that Canada should be advertised. How many people in he United States are interested in Canada, but do not know much about it? It is my duty as a member of parliament to congratulate Mr. Dolan on having publicized Canada, as he has so successfully in so many of the large cities in the United States. He has made the tourist industry an important business in Canada. Very often I have complained about some civil servants, and I am pleased at this time to be able to say I am satisfied with one. I do so with the utmost pleasure.


George Prudham: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the member for Victoria (Ont.), the money is all spent in the United States.


Mr. Herridge:: Mr. Chairman, I have sat here all evening without making any comment on these items, and I intend to make a few comments on this item regardless of the "Oh's". First of all I am pleased to see there is an increase in this item of $216,000 because I think that this department is one which is well worth any extra expenditure. Before proceeding with the brief remarks I wish to make on this item, I want to say that I think Mr. Dolan and his staff are doing an excellent job. I have found evidence of that from people I know in the United States, and from people across Canada. One thing I liked from what I have seen of the staff of the Canadian travel bureau is that they actually do attempt to promote tourist travel in Canada. I believe there is excellent esprit de corps amongst the staff of the travel bureau.
Mr. Chairman, I rise to make my annual speech on this subject, and to urge again that as much advertising as possible be undertaken of the smaller resources in Canada, whether they be in central Canada, western Canada or any other part. We can leave the advertising of the larger resorts, such as Lake Louise, Jasper, the Seigniory club and the Chateau Frontenac to the railroads. I noticed an excellent article in the

Supply-Resources and Development Christian Science Monitor dealing with tourist opportunities in Canada. It dealt entirely with the larger resorts in Canada. Mr. Chairman, there is a small percentage of the Canadian people of modest means, or people from the United States of modest means, who are able to visit the larger resorts. The average Canadian of modest means wants to attend a place at modest cost, where he can have his meals without having to put on his best bib and tucker. I do urge that everything be done to advertise the resorts all across Canada that are operated by the smaller people for the smaller people of modest means. That would be my only criticism of the literature published by the Canadian travel bureau. There happen to be in my constituency numbers of very excellent small resorts which some of the members of the House of Commons visit periodically. We have fishing, hunting, swimming, boating, mountain climbing, hot springs and skiing in the riding of Kootenay West. On the Kootenay lake we have the Kootenay cottages, Kootenay bay resorts, the beautiful Balfour beaches and resorts, the areas around Nelson, the north shore, and the beautiful fishing camps and resorts around the city of Kaslo. In the Arrow Lake district we have Halcyon hot springs for those who want medical treatment and Saint Leon hot springs for those who want to sun bathe, fish, hunt or swim. We have the lovely district around Nakusp and we have the district of Deer Park and the Lardeau where any member of this committee can go and be certain of getting a grizzly bear in the season at any time. In addition to that we have the remarkable community enterprise in the Rossland ski lift on Red mountain.


An hon. Member:: Krestova.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: An hon. member opposite mentions Krestova, but that would be a tourist resort from an entirely different angle from the one I am mentioning now.
I do urge that these smaller resorts throughout Canada be advertised to the fullest extent because they are the type of resorts that the bulk of the American people of modest means and the bulk of Canadian people of modest means want and are able to patronize; and they are operated by people of small and modest means. In the district of southeastern British Columbia one finds 40,000 square miles of mountain scenery, and everything the tourist delights to enjoy. I do urge in conclusion that the full facilities of this bureau be used to advertise the beautiful but smaller and in many cases almost unknown resorts in Canada.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I want to ask the minister one question. I should like him to ask his highly efficient travel director, the next time he is in Montreal, if he will tell the Canadian Pacific Railway that there is $300 million invested every year or spent every year in skiing. Along the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway is the finest skiing in the world and practically nothing is being done about it. I wish that the government would try to nudge the railway to do something about it because we have the greatest potential tourist asset along that main line of any anywhere, not only in North America but anywhere in the world.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: I want to ttiank the minister for answering my question. I am glad they are doing their advertising in the large cities of the United States, because I feel that the American tourist industry is one that can be developed. We have quite a number of American tourists coming up into our section of the country each and every year; and more are coming year by year. These American tourists, our cousins, make arrangements for anywhere from $200 to $3,500 per family in American exchange when they are coming over here. They make that arrangement before they come here, so that I know they are spending a great deal of money. We know from the banks the amount of American money that perhaps is collected from time to time in our local banks. It is a great asset to us to have the American tourists come in here. It is new money. It is therefore fine for everybody within our area. I am saying thanks to the minister, and I am glad they are spending as much money as possible in promoting the tourist industry and advertising in the United States.


George Matheson Murray: I find myself in sympathy both with the C.C.F. gentleman and with the hon. member for Victoria (Ont.). On opening the New York Times the other day I read a wonderful article dealing with the Alaska highway. Nobody had paid for the article; I mean, it was not an advertisement; it was a descriptive article dealing with the Alpine attractions or the tourist attractions of that area. I found out later that it had been placed there by this agency which is under this department. The Chicago Tribune also from time to time, in its Sunday edition, carries extensive articles dealing with northern British Columbia and the Yukon, and the attractions there. It costs us nothing but still these articles are written and the photographs are supplied by Mr. Leo Dolan and his department here in Ottawa.
I think that there are two sources of foreign exchange coming into Canada this summer. One is the sale of our gold and the

other is the receipt of American dollars from the tourist traffic. In the little rock garden represented by the hon. member for Kootenay West there are many attractions, but you can go a thousand miles from there and the attractions increase as you go north. This department is presenting those attractions favourably to the tourists.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I understand that the gentleman you know as "Mr. Travel" is going to Newfoundland in the next two months to assist in the promotion of the tourist industry. I want him to know that, with his past record, we are looking ahead with great interest to the work he is going to do. As far as Newfoundland is concerned, we wish him all sorts of luck. I am speaking of Mr. Dolan.


Percy Chapman Black: I have been interested in the development of the tourist trade ever since the department at Ottawa was established at the instance, I may say, of Senator W. H. Dennis of Halifax. I agree with what has been said with respect to the director, Mr. Dolan, the one who took over this work at the very beginning. It is true that he has been under many ministers in the intervening years. I suppose if he got a little bit of wisdom from each of those ministers, it would be some explanation of the development.
Since the department was established we have gone through some unfortunate years of depression and war. The construction of highways has greatly interfered with tourist traffic. I hope and expect to see greater development in the years directly ahead. If there is one criticism or wish that I might express, it is that more attention should be given to the people in central Canada, to whom we in the maritimes have contributed so much, to encourage them to visit the maritime provinces. There are a number of them who do come down to the maritimes, but a great many go to other places, especially to Maine in the United States, and who should properly come to the maritime provinces and in particular to Nova Scotia which has attractions for tourists unequalled anywhere in any country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
269. Departmental administration, $1,353,625.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: We have been a long time getting to this department, but we are there. We were on this item at six o'clock, Mr. Chairman, when you and I had a little difference of opinion about the time, whether it was 5-59 or 6-01. Eventually it was called six o'clock.
Supply-Post Office
The item before us is one of the principal items in the Post Office estimates. I wish to direct a few remarks to the Postmaster General. As I said at the beginning, I endorse the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Peel with regard to the minister's return to the house, and also his remarks with regard to the setting up of a committee at another session.
The Postmaster General gave a very good account of the work of his department and of the increase in sales in his department amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars. We always look upon the Post Office Department as a department that has the opportunity of making large profits. I now ask the minister what was the net profit in the Post Office Department in the last fiscal year. In other years it has been as high as $13 million. With the volume of business that the department has done the net revenue I suppose will be larger than ever. I do not know whether he gave the figure when he was speaking this afternoon.
There is nothing in business that can be produced cheaper than a four-cent postage stamp. It produces the greatest profit of anything that can possibly be produced. Its sales are the largest in the entire department. In this connection I notice one item here that is a Uttle bit discouraging. I refer to the mail service of Canada. An amount of $11,859,213 was paid last year for the mail services by ordinary land conveyance, including rural mail delivery. There is no breakdown for the year 1951 to show what it will be, but in this vote which includes air mail delivery as well as the rural courier delivery, there is a decrease of almost a million dollars, to be exact $948,264. Whether or not this decrease comes entirely out of the earnings of the rural mail couriers is something that I should like to know from the Postmaster General.
The problem of mail couriers has been with us for years. On many occasions in the house and in committee it has been discussed. When we were discussing the vote in 1946 the then Postmaster General promised to set up a committee to study the problem of the rural mail couriers. However, he did not last too long in office, and went out with the promise unfulfilled. If you compare vote 269 with 270, 269 dealing with mail couriers and 270 dealing with the employees of the central offices, you will find quite a difference. During last year there was an increase in salaries amounting to something over $4,450,000, but, as I said, at the same time the rural mail couriers took a decrease of almost a million dollars. I am not objecting to the salaries paid to these officials, but I do object to the

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decrease that was handed out to the rural mail couriers, because they are the people who distribute the mail and finally get it out to the people in the different parts of the country.
I might say that there is no class of servant in this country serving the public or His Majesty that can compare to the mail couriers. They have a hard job, and they do it well. I want to draw the attention of the Postmaster General to what happened in Prince Edward Island during last year, and to the mail couriers in my constituency, and I can speak for most of them. They have always been excellent couriers. Some of them have been in the service from 18 to 45 years, and are still key men. They have never had a complaint registered against them either by the public or by the department. I want to mention one of these men who had a mail route of about 28 to 30 miles. During the Christmas season last year we had very bad road conditions in Prince Edward Island. This courier was so anxious to serve the public, especially during the holiday season, when it was impossible for him to take a car over the dirt roads and he found that he could not make it with a horse and rig, that he went and hired a jeep. He also hired a driver for that jeep, and for six days he went with the driver of the jeep and delivered the mail, and did it on time. It cost that mail courier $9 a day for six days, which is quite a sum, besides his own costs. That is the type of men we have down there. I saw another man on the road at one time during that season when it was muddy. He took a car for seven miles on the highway. At the end of the seven miles he had to have a horse and wagon. He drove five miles more with them, and when he got to the end of those five miles there was a crossroad where there was from three to five feet of snow and he had to have a horse and sleigh to cover that distance. Then he had to double back over that same road. I just mention this because the contract of one of these men came up. I say the department should give careful consideration to a faithful man and give him a contract at a reasonable rate, one which would permit him to live and not necessitate his going into debt or to suffer undue hardship. However, the department said that it was not agreeable, and that it felt this work could be done for less money. It was further pointed out that tenders must be called for.
Where a man has given good service for a good many years, and continues to give it, where a man is prepared to serve the people properly, the Postmaster General and the department should be able to figure out what his services are worth so that he can be paid
[Mr. McLure.l
accordingly. It is all- very well to say that the average price per mile in Prince Edward Island is $53.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is the average.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Yes, the average. That may be so, but at the same time that is where the discrimination comes in. For instance, I know of mail routes in Prince Edward Island where they get only $35 a mile, and I know of others where they get as high as $87 a mile.
I could mention one route in particular where the contract calls for $2,400. That is not too much money-not a nickel too much for the 28 or 29 miles that must be travelled. However, I know of another man who travels 27 miles over a harder route and who receives only $1,625, or about two-thirds of the former amount. That is where the discrimination comes in under the present tendering system. The sooner this department can establish some principle whereby it could figure out what would be fair and honest for all these drivers, the better it will be for the service. So much for the mail couriers.
Then, I have another matter to draw to the attention of the Postmaster General, namely one having to do with an official who has been in the service for a long time as stamp vendor. He is now serving his forty-ninth year in the service, is still going strong and giving good service. He has not been pensioned off, and I am told that he has no opportunity of receiving any pension. This man is working under contract and cannot be dismissed unless it is shown that he is not giving proper service.
However, after serving for forty-nine years, without complaint either from the public or from the department, it is time something was done for him. Let us look at his contract. It states that he shall go to work at eight o'clock in the morning and must keep his office open until eight o'clock in the evening every day of the week except Sunday. Every year he is allowed two or three statutory holidays.
Let me contrast this with the average clerk in the postal department. The man to whom I am referring works a day and a half for every day the ordinary clerk works. Therefore, contrasting this man with a clerk, it is clear that while a clerk was working forty-nine years this man would have worked seventy-three.
His contract stipulates that he shall receive as payment two per cent on all sales. He applied for an increase in that percentage when the cost of living drove expenses higher and higher, but was unsuccessful in

his application, and was reminded of the terms of the contract under which he had been operating. What happened? To get rid of this man who had been giving good service, meters were installed. I have no objection at all to stamp meters. According to his contract however he should have received two per cent on all meter sales. Despite the fact that his revenue has been cut in half, the Post Office Department does not allow him that two per cent on meter sales.
I say it is a mean thing when we find a big department such as this one trying to get rid of an employee by taking away his sales through the installation of a meter system. The time has come when this man should be given some kind of pension. I hope my suggestion will not be brushed off, because the plight of this man stands as a blot against the department. He has been working at a low wage, but the department is now proceeding to make something extra by taking sales away from him through the installation of stamp meters.
Last year we discussed the promise to reduce the postage rate from four cents to three cents. I would rather see it retained at four cents until such time as the mail couriers are properly paid for the work they do. I hope it will not be reduced until those people have received something for the fine service they have rendered.
In the post office at Charlottetown there are excellent officials, but the objection I have always taken is that while Prince Edward Island is a province, we have been tacked on to New Brunswick in this particular. We should have the very same rights as any other province-and we are going to get them some day. While this government discriminates against Prince Edward Island, there will be a change of government some day and we will get rid of the discrimination. There is no justice in our being tacked on to any other province. We are a province in ourselves, and according to the terms of our contract of 1873 we are entitled to whatever any other province can have, even though it be on a smaller scale. I would ask the Postmaster General to answer this point.
I would ask the Postmaster General to take up with the Minister of Public Works the matter of a new post office building.


Alphonse Fournier: Where?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The one there now is fair, but for the last six or seven years they have been drawing plans for a new one. When the final plans are prepared it will be up to the Postmaster General to see that the
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post office at Charlottetown is properly located in the new building that has been promised for such a long time. In closing,
I hope the Postmaster General will meet our request to set up a committee at the next session of the house for the purpose of studying the problems of the rural mail couriers, and laying down a policy by which they may have some sense of security and appropriate pay for their services.


Stanley Howard Knowles: On April 6 of this year there appeared in the Hartland Observer of Hart-land, New Brunswick, a news item to the effect that certain changes had been effected with regard to the postal service in that part of Carleton county. Apparently this item of news was rather offensive to one D. R. Bishop, who lives in Woodstock, New Brunswick, which is located in Carleton county. I find that a few days later he published a paid advertisement in the Hartland Observer taking exception to the news item that had appeared some days earlier. I should like to call the attention of the Postmaster General to two or three sentences in this paid advertisement over the name of D. R. Bishop. They are:
I have documents in my file on this matter-
The matter has to do with certain changes in postal delivery.
-to show that I and no one else made all arrangements concerning this matter. Every detail concerning the cancellation of the original plan of the department, the setting up of a new route, additions to the new one, and as to what post offices would be closed, was arranged by me with the department. That can be clearly proven by records not only in my office but by records and road maps sent by me to Post Office Department at Ottawa.
The advertisement continues, but I need not bother reading it all. As I have already indicated, it is over the name of D. R. Bishop, and apparently is an advertisement which he paid for. I was a bit shocked at this barefaced claim to what amounts to the control of patronage in that area, and I felt I would like to get more information about it.


James Sinclair: Is that in your capacity as parliamentary assistant to the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton?


Stanley Howard Knowles: It is in my capacity as one who asked' a number of questions earlier in the session concerning patronage, the answers to which may be found on Hansard. As a matter of fact, on page 352 of Hansard for this session the Prime Minister told me that there were no official records indicating patronage. At page 842 of Hansard for this session he said to me:
The only knowledge I have of anything of that kind is that one of the defeated candidates in a by-election asked ipe who was going to handle

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patronage. I told him that to my knowledge there was no patronage, that there were persons who made certain recommendations to which more or less importance was attached, but that was all there was to it.
The Prime Minister went on to complain about my putting questions of that nature on the order paper. The assurance of the Prime Minister that there was no such thing as patronage really did not convince me, and from time to time during the session I have had instances of it drawn to my attention.


James Sinclair: By whom?


Stanley Howard Knowles: This is one to which I have just referred.


Mr. Laing:: Is that a reliable newspaper?


Stanley Howard Knowles: At least the advertisement was paid for by Mr. D. R. Bishop who, I have learned, by checking the parliamentary guide and other documents, was the Liberal candidate in the constituency of Victoria-Carleton in the election held a year ago today. It is quite fitting that we should deal with this matter today. I felt that this claim on the part of Mr. D. R. Bishop that he was telling the post office what to do in Carleton county was one that needed to be investigated. I put a rather all-inclusive motion on the order paper asking for the return of papers concerning this matter, feeling that I would either get the papers and see that Mr. Bishop was right, that he is in charge of patronage down there, and thus patronage would be revealed, or that there would be nothing on the record and he would be shown to be wrong.
It turns out that Mr. Bishop is substantially correct. As a matter of fact, sessional paper No. 85K, tabled on Wednesday, June 21, 1950, in answer to the motion I put on the order paper, reveals even more information than I asked for. By going through this document of some ninety-four pages, I discovered that not only does Mr. D. R. Bishop, the defeated Liberal candidate in that area, have a good deal of influence with the Post Office Department, but so does the senator from that region, to whom communications are addressed from time to time.
I rise deliberately to complain about the affairs of the Post Office Department being handled in this way. It seems to me that it ought to be on a civil service basis, or on a business basis, but not on a patronage basis.
Let me draw your attention to a couple of letters in the file which, as I say, my motion produced even though I did not know they were there. At page 78 of the file I find a letter addressed to the Hon. F. W. Pirie, the Senate, Ottawa, Ontario, over the

signature of one of the officials in the operations branch of the Post Office Department. In the letter Senator Pirie is informed that there is a certain vacancy at Mineral, New Brunswick, in the electoral district of Victoria-Carleton. It does not say it is in Carleton county; it is in the constituency of Victoria-Carleton. Then there is this sentence:
Would you be good enough, therefore, to submit for the consideration of the Postmaster General, on the official form attached, your recommendation of a suitable person who will be willing to accept this position.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: What is the date of the letter?


Stanley Howard Knowles: July 8, 1946.


Jean-François Pouliot: Was his advice good or bad?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Just a minute-


Mr. Harkness:: Eleven o'clock.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I turn to page 72 and I find a letter from the director of operations of the Post Office Department. The department is ready to make the appointment to the post office at Mineral, New Brunswick, but there is this letter of July 21, 1947, to the Hon. F. W. Pirie, Grand Falls, New Brunswick. It states that the department is ready to confirm the appointment of Mr. So and So, but then there is this paragraph:
Before issuing instructions the department would like to know whether Mr. Kinney's appointment meets with your approval. An official form is attached for your convenience.
I remind hon. members that the Prime Minister assured me there was no such thing as patronage, no one handled it, and one of the reasons that one of my questions about patronage could not be answered was that there was nothing on the record. I now have some of the material respecting patronage that is on the record by the medium of asking this question about what is going on in the electoral district of Victoria-Carleton. In this paid advertisement Mr. D. R. Bishop states that he has documents, letters and maps to show that he is responsible for the arrangements that have been made at some of these places such as Holmesville, Mineral, Moose Mountain and so on, and sure enough in the sessional paper for which I asked here are the maps that Mr. Bishop drew and submitted, which apparently have become the basis for the routes that have been established down there. In this file are at least three maps submitted by this same Mr. Bishop.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: What are the maps?


Stanley Howard Knowles: They are maps of rural routes for that area. Then I look at page 34 of this interesting file and find a lengthy

letter under date of January 20, 1950, over the signature of Mr. G. Herring, director of communications, addressed to Mr. D. R. Bishop, Woodstock, New Brunswick, setting out the arrangements finally agreed upon for the postal service in this area. It reads exactly like a letter from an official at head office to an official out in the field; you would not think it was just to a defeated Liberal candidate, but there it is. It is lengthy, so I will not read it, but I will read the reply, which is businesslike and direct. It is addressed to Mr. Herring and reads:
Re Upper Kent R.R. No. 1
This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of January 20. The arrangements mentioned in your letter seem to cover this matter excellently. Therefore I am very satisfied with them.
Very truly yours,
D. R. Bishop
There is no such thing as patronage, says the Prime Minister, and of course no one controls it; but Mr. Bishop certainly thinks he does. In a paid advertisement he claims he does, and the documents he says are on file certainly seem to be there. Then I come back to page 30, where I find that on February 6, 1950, Mr. Herring addressed a communication to Daniel R. Bishop, Woodstock, New Brunswick, as follows:
Re Bath rural route No. 3
I am enclosing herewith a copy of the notice inviting tenders for the above mentioned mail service together with form 95-A for your information.
Yours truly,
G. Herring,
Director of Communications
The next several pages consist of applications that were sent in response to the invitation to tender. Then another letter goes to Mr. Bishop from Mr. Herring on March 20, 1950, informing him that the department intends to award the contract for this service to Mr. Saunders Giberson, the lowest tenderer, at the rate of $1,200 per annum.


James Sinclair: Anything wrong with that?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No, but listen to the next letter, dated March 24, 1950:
Dear Mr. Herring,
I have received your letter of March 20, and have had several protests from very responsible people to the effect that the lowest tenderer in this case is and always has been a most irresponsible person.
It, therefore, would seem that an investigator should be sent up there before this contract is awarded to him.
Yours very truly,
D. R. Bishop
I suppose you would call that patronage in reverse. The next letter is dated March 30, and is from Mr. Herring back to Mr. Bishop,
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and I think hon. members should get this. It is a most interesting document, and if you did not know who Mr. D. R. Bishop was you would think this was an exchange of correspondence between an official at head office and a responsible official out in the field. But that man out in the field is just a fellow who was a Liberal candidate in the last election. In reply to Mr. Bishop's letter saying that Mr. Giberson is and has always been a most irresponsible person, which is a pretty sweeping statement to make about anybody, Mr. Herring wrote as follows:
Dear Mr. Bishop:
I have your letter of the 24th March with regard to the conveyance of mails over Bath rural route No. 3 and I note your remarks concerning the lowest tenderer.
In reply I may say that this matter will be looked into at once.
Yours very truly,
G. Herring,
Director of Communications


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: What is wrong with that?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Bishop did not take too long to reply. The previous letter was dated March 30, and this one back to Mr. Herring is dated April 3:
I have your letter of March 30 in answer to mine of the 24th. The matter is further complicated by the fact that the present tenderer has requested to be relieved of this contract forthwith.
The general opinion is as I stated in my former letter, but since no one will make any specific charge, I do not feel their complaints should be listened to, and would advise that this man begin his contract as quickly as possible.
Yours very truly,
D. R. Bishop
First of all the man writes a most damning letter saying this fellow is and always has been most irresponsible and should not get the job. Then a few weeks later he writes and reverses his decision, and says that Mr. Giberson should be appointed. On April 6 Mr. Herring replied to Mr. Bishop as follows:
With reference to your letter of the 3rd instant concerning contract arrangements for the conveyance of mails over Bath rural route No. 3, I wish to inform you that instructions have been issued awarding the contract to Mr. Saunders Giberson at $1,200 per annum, subject, of course, to his being in a position to perform service satisfactorily.
Yours very truly,
G. Herring,
Director of Communications
Who is this D. R. Bishop? First of all the department writes telling him that invitations to tender have been sent out. Later on they tell him that so-and-so is going to be awarded the contract. He says no, that fellow is no good; don't give it to him. The department says they will hold up the contract. Then Mr. Bishop thinks it over again and says Mr. So-and-So should get the job, and he gets it.

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I could go on, because this is a most interesting file, but I think the point has been established that this hardly conforms to the assurance the Prime Minister sought to give me that there was no such thing as patronage anywhere in the government service, that there was no such thing as defeated Liberal candidates having certain powers in connection with these matters. The hon. member for Red Deer says he knows now why a parliamentary committee will never be appointed to look into post office matters. Not many days ago I had something to say about this same Mr. D. R. Bishop in connection with another department. That stirred up a bit of interesting newspaper comment down in that part of the country, and I find that a letter has been brought to light which this Mr. Bishop circulated before the last election, and even before the Liberal nomination in that constituency. In that letter, which apparently was sent to a number of people and which is reprinted in The Observer of Hartland, New Brunswick, of June 22, 1950. Mr. Bishop said:
You will therefore understand what may seem to be my inaction, but after Saturday I will be around in support of whoever the convention chooses. As you know, I do not particularly want this nomination, but with a new four-lane highwav to be constructed under federal supervision from Grand Falls to Eel River, it means a lot of money will be spent here, and that somebody must be in charge of it.
As I say, hon. members must not forget the positive assurance I was given by the Prime Minister on March 1, 1950, at page 352 of Hansard and on March 16, 1950, at page 842, that there is no such thing as patronage in the government service and no such thing as defeated Liberal candidates having any say in connection with these matters.
Mr. Chairman, we hear about this sort of thing too often. It just so happens that in this instance one has the evidence. There is more if I want to take the time to read it. If hon. members desire to know about it I advise them to look at sessional paper No. 89C of March 18, 1948; 89E of April 27, 1948 and 87E of April 25, 1949. They will find that all those sessional papers, brought down on motions of other members of the house, produce documents showing the influence that Liberal members of parliament and defeated Liberal candidates seek to bring to bear upon the Post Office Department with respect to its affairs. We know that when there are vacancies in the postal service, advice is sent to the Liberal members. We hear of that from time to time. We do not get it. We do not want it.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I have taken a note of that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, I wish the extent of that Liberal laughter could be properly recorded in Hansard. The fact of the matter is that Liberals are so immersed in this business of patronage and controlling things their way that they cannot understand anyone not wanting to be a party to it in any way, shape or form. I am protesting against patronage in so far as there is full evidence of it in sessional paper 85K; I am protesting against it in so far as we hear of its taking place in various places. I do insist there is need for getting rid of this kind of thing in the Post Office Department. I strongly support the suggestions that have been made during the course of this debate today that there should be a committee to o into post office matters-not just into the question of the rural mail couriers, but into T e whole question of the post office as it is run

with particular reference to the part that senators, Liberal members of parliament and defeated Liberal candidates play in relation to post office matters.


Jean-François Pouliot: I just want to say a word in answer to my hon. friend. He has read some excerpts from letters by Mr. Bishop an-1 Mr. Herring, acknowledged in a natural way, in a democratic way. Canadian citizens in New Brunswick did write to the department and they were answered by the department much better than I am myself as a member of parliament. I ask a question of my hon. friend, and I am speaking of the Bishop-Herring file. The most important thing in what he has said is not whether the suggestion came from Bishop or from anyone else: the question is whether the suggestion made by a New Brunswicker to the department is a good one or a bad one. My hon. friend did not discuss that point. The most important point in connection with the business is not who made the suggestion, but the suggestion itself. I challenge my hon. friend to say that the advice given to the Post Office Department by Bishop was not good.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Which advice? The advice to hire him or not to hire him?


Jean-François Pouliot: Both. I challenge the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton to repeat what has been said by the member for Winnipeg North Centre. He will not dare touch it because it happened in his own constituency. It is better for the Post Office Department to listen to Bishop of New Brunswick about New Brunswick matters than to listen to the member for Winnipeg North Centre. The member for Winnipeg North Centre is one of my colleagues for whom I have great admiration. I admire his industry, and I

admire his good intentions; but he does not know anything about the post office business in eastern Canada.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about patronage?


Jean-François Pouliot: Patronage is a good thing. Those who pretend to the contrary and do not know about it may be excused. Those who pretend to the contrary and know about it are just hypocrites. It is essential that the Post Office Department or any other department should be informed by men in whom the government has confidence, and who will not betray the government in the advice they give to the department. Is it clear now?
If the department were to listen to the Tories about recommendations, the department would be led into error. If a Conservative government had been in power and the member for Victoria-Carleton had been a supporter of the Tory government, he would never have been able to give such good advice as Bishop did. I have great admiration for him, and I have more admiration for the way he used the member for Winnipeg North Centre as his dummy.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, on a point of privilege, I think the hon. member on reflection would rather not be recorded as making that statement. The member for Victoria-Carleton, knowing I am interested in this question of patronage, showed me the original advertisement to which I referred. Members of this house who know me do not need to be told a second time that, the minute I saw it I decided I was going to do something about it-on my own. I do not even know whether the member for Victoria-Carleton likes my taking this up, and I do not care whether he does or not. To me it was a most bare-faced claim to be in control of patronage, and I was concerned to find out all I could about it.
While I am on my feet may I say to the member for Temiscouata that when he tells me the government Post Office Department should get its advice from people in whom it has confidence, I agree. The department, however, should get its advice from the officials who the department knows are experts in the field. I am not suggesting they should get advice from the member for Victoria-Carleton, or from the member for Temiscouata.


Jean-François Pouliot: I would not touch it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am suggesting that we pay considerable sums of money for civil servants in this department, so that the department can have experts to decide on these matters. As for the matter of a person in whom someone has confidence, surely the member does not
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suggest that a candidate who has been rejected by the constituency is a person to whom the government should look as the man in whom to place confidence. Far better for the department to get its advice from its own experts in the field.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will tell my friend one thing. If he is offended by the word "dummy" I will substitute an argument on the word and I will tell him that I never contended that he was magnetized or hypnotized by the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton. All I meant to say was that the member for Victoria-Carleton had made him believe that it was an awful thing, but did not go so far as to admit it. He has admitted that the member for Victoria-Carleton had shown the paper to him, and the light was on the paper, and it induced him to do a lot of work to find that file in which there was nothing wrong. He was easily scandalized.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Jean-François Pouliot: What is wrong with that?


Stanley Howard Knowles: The hon. member for Temiscouata has already said that he wants patronage. We know where he stands.


Jean-François Pouliot: If we continued that argument for five minutes, the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre would admit that I am right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Oh, no. Never.


Jean-François Pouliot: So much so that the hon. mem-be for Victoria-Carleton will never dare to repeat what has been said by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, oh.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Order.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman-


Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I should like to ask the unanimous consent of the house to present a motion that I discussed earlier in the day with the leaders of the various groups to the effect that tomorrow and the other days of the session there be no intermission from one o'clock to three o'clock nor from six o'clock to eight o'clock. I move:
That notwithstanding the terms of standing order 6 and of the special order of May 29 last, on

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Wednesday, June 28, and every sitting day thereafter there be no intermission of the sitting from one o'clock to three o'clock p.m., nor from six o'clock to eight o'clock p.m.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we shall continue with the estimates, beginning with the estimates of the Secretary of State, then Transport, National Revenue, Mines and Technical Surveys, Fisheries, Justice and legislation.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What about Post Office?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: We shall try to get something done.


[Stage Direction]
It being twenty-five minutes after eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:

[Stage Direction]
Dominion coal board-
449.	Administration and investigations of the dominion coal board, $101,040.
450.	Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $4,500,000.
National research council-
451.	Salaries and other expenses of the national research council, $9,874,903.
452.	Construction of buildings and works listed in the details of the estimates, provided that treasury board may increase or decrease the amount within the vote to be expended on individual listed projects (revote $915,000), $2,210,800.
453.	Grant to the Royal Society of Canada, $8,000. Atomic energy control board-
454.	Administration expenses of the atomic energy control board, $57,000.
455.	Researches and investigations with respect to atomic energy, $150,000.
Atomic energy (Chalk river) project-
456.	Operation and maintenance, $6,113,530.
457.	Construction of buildings and works, $1,671,000.
Canadian Arsenals Limited-
458.	Administration and operation of Canadian Arsenals Limited, $2,900,000.
782.	Canadian International Trade Fair, 1951, including authority to refund from revenue deposits received for contracts for space, $296,500.
Dominion bureau of statistics-
783.	Statistics-further amount required, $119,335. Special-
784.	To reimburse the Canadian Commercial Corporation for expenses incurred in purchasing materials, supplies and equipment, etc., on behalf of the Department of National Defence, under chapter 51, statutes of 1947-further amount required, $31,736.
Atomic energy control board-
785.	Atomic energy (Chalk river) project-construction of buildings and works-further amount required, $100,000.

823. To provide, subject to the approval of treasury board, for advances to Canadian Arsenals Limited, to increase the working capital fund for the operations of the company, $2,500,000.

[Stage Direction]
393.	Trans-Canada highway division, $300,000.
394.	Capital investment data, $12,935.
395.	To provide for general investigations by the Northwest Territories power commission of the electric power requirements of settlements and industries in the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory, $10,000.
396.	To recoup the Minister of Finance for advances to be made to the Northwest Territories power commission during the fiscal year 1949-50 for power development as provided under section 17(2) of the Northwest Territories Power Commission Act, chapter 64, 11-12 George VI, $30,000.
397.	To provide, subject to allocation by the treasury board, for the design and planning of deferrable projects, the acquisition of sites and the initiation of construction, $2,000,000.
398.	To provide for contribution towards cost of subway at Sudbury, Ontario, to implement agreement entered into in 1939 (revote), $100,000.
Canadian government travel bureau-
399.	To assist in promoting the tourist business in Canada, $1,514,421.
Housing-
400.	Emergency shelter-administration, $300,000.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
562. To provide for the advances to Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation for the acquisition of land, the installation of services and improvements in respect thereof, the purchase of building materials and the construction or conversion of housing projects for veterans under the authority of section 34 of the National Housing Act, 1944, and, with the approval of treasury board, for the Department of National Defence, including construction of school buildings, $75,000,000.
758.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $23,239.
Development services branch-
Water resources division-
759.	Water resources division, including the administration of the Dominion Water Power and Irrigation Acts-further amount required, $71,597.
Wildlife division-
760.	Wildlife resources conservation and development, including administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act-further amount required, $20,307.
National parks and historic sites division-
761.	National parks and historic sites services- further amount required, $106,500.
762.	National Museum of Canada-further amount required, $16,284.
Northern administrations-
763.	Administration-further amount required, $18,095.
Mackenzie river division-
764.	Roads, buildings and other works, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $102,000.
Arctic division-
765.	Operation and maintenance of services, including Eskimo affairs-further amount required, $28,240.

766.	Buildings and other works, as detailed in the estimates-further amount required, $3,000.
Engineering and construction services-
767.	Engineering and construction services-further amount required, $67,125.
Forestry branch-
768.	Forest research division-further amount required, $56,888.
769.	Forest products division-further amount required, $14,211.
Special projects branch-
770.	Projects division-further amount required, $4,000.
771.	Notwithstanding the Trans-Canada Highway Act, to authorize and provide for a payment to the provinces of Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and Newfoundland, which have entered into an agreement with Canada for construction of a part of the trans-Canada highway, in respect of construction of the highway carried out between December 10, 1949, and the day on which these provinces respectively signed the agreement with Canada, in accordance with regulations of the governor in council; the amount paid to each province, however, not to exceed fifty per centum of the cost to the province of the said construction as determined by the governor in council; the maximum amount authorized to be expended by section 7 of the Trans-Canada Highway Act to be decreased to the extent of any amount paid pursuant to this vote, $250,000.
Supply-Resources and Development
772.	To provide for a contribution by Canada to the improvement and reconstruction of the road between Patricia Bay airport, Vancouver Island, and the city limits of Victoria, B.C., subject to the completion of an agreement between Canada and the province of British Columbia (revote), $150,000.
B-National film board-
773.	Administration, production and distribution of films and other visual materials, including authority to finance temporarily work performed for other public authorities or other agencies as the public interest requires-further amount required, $78,524.
774.	Acquisition of equipment-further amount required, $5,600.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation-
820. To hereby extend the application of the terms of vote 562 in the main estimates, 1950-51, to include the acquisition of land, the installation of services and improvements in respect thereof, the purchase of building materials and the construction or conversion of housing projects for residents of Deep River, Ontario, and to authorize commitments against future years for the purposes of the said vote to an amount of $14,208,000, $1.
Resources and development-
822. To provide for advances to the Northwest Territories power commission for the construction on the Mayo river, Yukon territory, of a storage and hydro-electric development, to serve the Mayo mining district, $500,000.
[Stage Direction]
Wednesday, June 28, 1950