1950-05-24

Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, before proceeding with the business of the day, and on a matter of general privilege, I feel it would be appropriate to recognize the fact that today is not only the birthday of Queen Victoria, but it is also the birthday of the senior statesman of the British fellowship throughout the world. Today in South Africa Field Marshal Smuts is celebrating his eightieth birthday. It is appropriate that here in Canada we should indicate our own good wishes to a man who has contributed so much to the development of this great British association to which we belong; to a man who in his own life has given a remarkable demonstration of the way in which friendship may grow out of understanding, and, because of the genius of our system, those who have even been enemies can stand side by side in the great cause of freedom.
Field Marshal Smuts was actually in command of the Boer troops during a considerable period of the South African war. Shortly after that, when South Africa became associated with the rest of us in this common endeavour which is called the British empire, the British commonwealth, or by whatever other term one chooses to describe this really remarkable fellowship of free people, he showed the way in which the hand of friendship can be extended after hostilities have ceased. Surely there can be nothing more dramatic than the fact that one of the most gallant soldiers on the other side of the Boer war became the commander of the South African troops in the war of 1914-18, and again during the second world war was not only prime minister of South Africa but also the supreme commander of the South African troops.
Field Marshal Smuts has been a truly remarkable man, and his service has not by any means been confined to South Africa. Today, when thoughtful people everywhere are reaching out for a wider basis of understanding among the nations of the world, it 55946-177*	*	|
is interesting to recall that, out of his early experience, he has always sought the widest measure of understanding among nations. He is the only man in public life today who was an active representative of a government at the time the charter of the league of nations came into existence at Versailles in 1919. In the spring of 1945 he went to San Francisco with the experience of a man who had seen the dream of the league of nations emerge, and had seen that dream shattered. It was he who was largely responsible for the drafting of the opening paragraphs of the declaration of the United Nations. In that declaration he sought to overcome the weaknesses of the covenant of the league, which had failed to preserve peace.
Today this man, with eighty years behind him, still shows that out of all that experience he is building for the future. I feel sure that we in this House of Commons today, far separated in distance from South Africa, would wish to extend our best wishes for many happy returns to* this great citizen of the free fellowship to which we belong.


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Acting Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) is not here on this occasion, because I am sure he would have considered it a privilege to agree with what has been said by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew). Indeed, he probably would have taken it upon himself to express the congratulations which have been so well expressed by the leader of the opposition.
Since the Prime Minister is not here, however, I find myself in the position of speaking for the group who sit on this side of the house, and on the other side, nearest to you, Mr. Speaker, as well; and in doing so I want to join with the leader of the opposition in the expression of the points of view he has just stated. During the Boer war, General Smuts was one of the leaders who at that time opposed us, and after the war ended in peace he took a leading part in bringing together the peoples of the southern part of the African continent, in very much the same manner as the leaders on this continent had on a previous occasion brought together the two great races here. I have no doubt that had men such as Montcalm lived through the battles of those days and
2798	HOUSE OF
Felicitations to Field Marshal Smuts settled in this country, to carry on in relation to what has happened since they would have taken much the same position as General Smuts has taken in South Africa.
I would remind hon. members that when the terms of peace were being discussed and new organizations were being set up in South Africa to meet the new situation, Canada was copied perhaps to a greater extent than any other part of the British commonwealth. From that time until this, General Smuts has taken a great interest in what has been going on in this country, and in doing so has tended to bring our peoples closer and closer together. By applying the same practices and principles in the southern part of Africa as were followed here, he has done much in many parts of world to promote the interests of the commonwealth as they have been promoted here.
For these reasons it gives me great pleasure to join the leader of the opposition in extending congratulations to this grand old man who in his own country has seen so many of his efforts brought to fruition.


Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, although the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) said he was speaking for the group with which he is associated, and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) said he was speaking for the party sitting on the government side, which has an overflow on this side, they really expressed the sentiment of all hon. members, no matter where they may sit in the house.
I have much pleasure in associating the members of the C.C.F. party with the felicitations extended to Field Marshal Smuts. I believe the story of the lives of Smuts and Botha, and some of their associates who were leaders of the Boer forces against the armies of the empire during the Boer war, indicates that they rendered notable service in promoting the welfare of this commonwealth of nations.
Our good wishes go out to Field Marshal Smuts today, particularly in view of the disturbed conditions that prevail in South Africa. The field marshal has taken a much more moderate attitude than some others do toward racial difficulties in that country; and I hope the day is not far distant when the people of South Africa will join with the other members of the commonwealth in banishing for ever the racial discrimination that now mars the good name of the Union of South Africa.


Hon. Brooke Claxton (Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr Speaker, may I say in the first place that I understand the
[Mr. Gardiner.l

Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has already sent a message to Field Marshal Smuts on the occasion of his eightieth birthday.
It so happens that in 1946, during the conference discussing the terms of peace with Italy and the other four satellites of Germany, it fell to my lot to tender a luncheon party to some of the leading figures at the conference. On that occasion the guest honoured by all was Field Marshal Smuts, the only man present who had been prominently associated with the Paris conference which concluded the first great war. The event took place in the room in the Crillon where Field Marshal Smuts had worked with President Wilson to draft the charter of the league of nations.



RED CROSS


Brooke Claxton: Mr. Speaker, by coincidence the house is privileged today to have among those who sit in the galleries one who represents another great work for humanity, Dr. Paul Ruegger, president of the International Red Cross. I should like again to express the appreciation every Canadian feels for the splendid work done by that great organization, particularly in respect of the 9,552 Canadian prisoners of war, for whose care and custody and welfare the international committee of the Red Cross in Geneva, and also, in its capacity of protecting power, the country of Switzerland, were responsible. They won and earned our admiration, our gratitude and our continuing support for what was done on behalf of humanity.



OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT


Hon. Siuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):: Yesterday the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) asked me a question in the following terms:
Has there been any examination or re-examination of the loyalty of any of the 150 persons then resident in Canada listed in the notebook found as a result of the espionage investigations of 1945 and 1946, since the trial ot Dr. Fuchs?
The notebook referred to in the hon. member's question was in fact a pocket address book, containing, as the question indicates, the names of 150 persons then resident in Canada. It formed only one item of many thousands of documents seized in the searches made in conjunction with the arrests of spy suspects in 1946. In this mass of material so seized there were many such notebooks; also desk calendars, memo pads, telephone finders, mailing lists, etc., which

contained thousands of names, addresses, telephone numbers and miscellaneous entries. All this material was carefully examined, including the notebook in question.
The list of 150 names referred to was carefully checked to ascertain which of these 150 names, if any, were those of persons who could be suspected of espionage or subversive activity. It was found that a limited number of the persons named belonged to either or both of these groups. In all such cases where positive identification proved possible, the entries were then related to and dealt with on the appropriate investigation files. As some of these investigations are still current, it will be appreciated that it would not be desirable to specify the number of persons identified.
The majority of the entries in this notebook, however, refer to professional people and others of good repute whose loyalty is beyond question.
All these investigation files have since remained extant. They, and the notebook in question, have been examined from time to time as a matter of security routine on every occasion, both before and after the trial of Dr. Fuchs, when information secured in other police investigations or from other sources indicated that such re-examination might contribute to and strengthen security measures.

On the orders of the day:


Mr. Gordon Graydon (Peel):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice, arising out of the statement he made today about the espionage case. Without attempting to minimize the responsibility of the United Kingdom government with respect to the Fuchs case, I should like to ask the minister a question I directed to another minister in a committee but which did not wholly come within that minister's department. Does the minister know whether or not the person who had the notebook was carefully examined as to the qualifications and history of all the people mentioned therein? I mean the 436, not just the 150 who were Canadians. As I understand it, six were United Kingdom citizens.


Some hon. Members:: Question.


Gordon Graydon: I am asking the minister the question. Was the man with the notebook examined as to the six United Kingdom citizens? It seems to me that only the names were forwarded, and not the result of the examination, if any.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member was
Official Secrets Act
aware of the answer to the question while he was asking it. He wants to know whether I know anything about this matter, and he knows perfectly well that I do not. Not having had anything to do with the examination of the gentleman concerned, I could not possibly answer the question without consulting with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I shall be glad to do that, taking my hon. friend's question as notice for that purpose, but without making any commitment about bringing down an answer.


Gordon Graydon: I want an answer from somebody in the government.



DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
George Alexander Drew: I rise on a question of privilege. On Friday last I raised a question about the calling of the standing committee on privileges and elections, but I was in error in referring to that committee. What I intended to refer to was the motion moved on April 18 by the Secretary of State (Mr. Bradley) for the setting up of a special committee "to study the several amendments to the Dominion Elections Act, 1938, and amendments thereto, suggested by the chief electoral officer"; the motion then went on to enlarge upon the subjects to be considered. In view of the fact that that motion for a special committee was presented over a month ago by a member of the government, and was agreed to, may I ask the Secretary of State when it is his intention to call the committee together?


Hon. F. G. Bradley (Secretary of State):: I
understand that the committee is in process of organization. I shall make inquiries and give my hon. friend further information tomorrow.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


Mr. James Sinclair (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance):: Yesterday, at the request of the hon. member for Winnipeg South (Mr. Mutch), I tabled an interim report on the Fraser valley flood. At that time the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) asked whether there were any other reports that had been made by this rehabilitation commission and, if so, would they be tabled. I made inquiries and I find that that commission was appointed not so much to
2800	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry make surveys and reports as to do a job. They did that job, and did it well, and at the end of the job they sent a letter to the Minister of Finance. Of course they were working in the closest co-operation with the government of British Columbia which, as in Manitoba today, was the government which had the direct responsibility for the administration of flood relief. If the house wishes to have tabled the letters between the minister and the rehabilitation commission, I shall table them; but they do not constitute an official report such as the hon. member requested.


Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):: I thank the parliamentary assistant for the explanation he has given. I think it would be worth while to have this correspondence tabled.



SOUTHERN MANITOBA-TAX EXEMPTIONS ON RELIEF FUND CONTRIBUTIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. A. Ross (Souris):: I should like to direct a question to the Acting Minister of National Revenue, although I believe it will concern also the Minister of Finance. Will consideration be given to the request of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce that contributions to the Manitoba flood relief fund be exempted from taxation over and above the five per cent now allowed corporations and the ten per cent allowed individuals? If I may be permitted a word, it has been estimated that $5 million, half of the proposed objective of the fund, can be raised by corporations within Ontario if they are allowed this exemption.


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Acting Minister of National Revenue):: Mr. Speaker, the same point was raised a few days ago. The statement made then indicated that donations would be tax free provided they were supported by a proper affidavit that the funds were to be used for the purpose of flood relief.


James Arthur Ross: Over and above the five and ten per cent?


Robert Henry Winters: I will have to check that and refer to what was said a few days ago.


James Arthur Ross: I do not believe exemption was provided over and above the five and ten per cent.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it agreeable that the question be taken by the minister as notice?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Stuart Sinclair Garson: On May 3 a question standing in the name of the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Higgins), was answered, as appears at page 2124 of Hansard. I wish to table a revised answer to this question. The question and the revised answer follow:


Mr. Higgins:: 1.	Have steps been taken to appoint a fourth judge to the Supreme Court of Newfoundland?
2.	If so, when will such appointment be made?
3.	How many district court judges are to be appointed in Newfoundland?
4.	When are such appointments to be made?


Mr. Garson:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No district court judges can be appointed until the Judges Act is amended to provide the salaries. A bill will be submitted to amend the Judges Act by providing salaries for five judges.
4.	Answered by No. 3.


MIGRATORY BIRDS CONVENTION ACT
Mr. Gillis:: 1.	What is the maximum penalty provided by the Migratory Birds Convention Act for infractions of its regulations?
2.	What is the heaviest penalty paid under this act in Canada in the past five years?
3.	How many convictions have been secured in Canada under this act during the past five years, with names of offenders and fines paid, by provinces?
4.	Have any fines been remitted to offenders during the past five years by order in council or under instructions from any official of the responsible department?
5.	Have any representations requesting the remission of fines imposed been received from any (a) members of parliament; (b) members of any provincial legislatures; (c) other particular body that might endeavour to pressure the government in this respect?


Mr. Prudham:: On behalf of the Minister of Resources and Development I should like to table the answer to this question with the exception of part of section 3 which asks for the names of persons who have been convicted under the act. I have consulted with the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) and he has agreed to withdraw that part of the question on the condition that the list is made available to him or any other hon. member wishing to see it.
The answers follow:
1.	The maximum penalty provided by the Migratory Birds Convention Act for infraction of its regulations is a fine of $300, or

Questions
imprisonment for a term of six months, or	2. Where are these houses located by provinces?
both fine and imprisonment as stated.	3- what was the cost Per 111111 for each erouP?
2.	The heaviest fine imposed under the Mr. Prudham: The department was unable above act in Canada from April 1, 1945, to to get complete answers to this question, but March 31, 1950, according to the records of such information as is available has been the department, was $100. In many cases the forwarded to the hon, member for St. John's imposition of a fine was accompanied by for- West, and he has agreed to drop the question, feiture of weapons and equipment. The Question dropped, records place no specific value on the goods
confiscated.	rates for carrying of freight by trucks
3.	From April 1, 1945, to March 31, 1950, departmental records show that 579 convictions were secured under the Migratory Birds Convention Act, distributed territorially as follows: Prince Edward Island, 47; Nova Scotia, 66; New Brunswick, 52; Ontario, 77; Quebec, 250; Manitoba, 8; Saskatchewan, 59; Alberta, 11; British Columbia, 7; Yukon Territory, 2.
In some cases the same person was convicted on the same day of more than one offence, with separate penalties being imposed; such convictions are recorded separately. The names of the offenders are not being tabled with this return, but the list is available to any member wishing to see it. The figures quoted include only convictions secured on information laid by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and do not include convictions secured on information laid by provincial game officers holding the appointment of game officers ex officio under the act. It is not the practice of provincial authorities to report such cases to the federal government.
4.	Departmental records indicate that only one fine of $10 imposed for infractions of the Migratory Birds Convention Act has been remitted to an offender during the last five years. Evidence submitted to the Department of Justice after conviction was that a provincial game officer had previously given this offender incorrect information regarding the boundaries of a bird sanctuary in question, and that he had been apprehended while he believed, in accordance with that information, that he was outside the bird sanctuary. On the strength of this evidence his Excellency the Governor General requested that the fine be remitted.
5.	No representations requesting remission of fines, other than the one mentioned, imposed under the Migratory Birds Convention Act, have been received by this department during the period since April 1, 1945, from any person or organization.


HOUSING
Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: 1.	How many houses have been built by co-operative groups during each of the years 1946 to 1949?


Mr. Hansell:: 1.	Who is responsible for determining rates for carrying freight by truck within each of the provinces?
2.	Who is responsible for determining rates for interprovincial freight by trucks?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	Each province has full jurisdiction over intraprovincial traffic on provincial highways.
2.	The federal government has claimed the right to exercise jurisdiction over interprovincial highway traffic, but this claim has been disputed by certain provinces.


LEGAL SERVICES
Mr. Conacher:: 1.	What was the result of the case of Paul C. Gilbert, sued by the crown on October 27,. 1949?
2.	What amounts were paid to Douglas McNish and D. W. H. Henry as legal fees?


Mr. Garson:: 1.	No decision has been given.
2.	No legal fees have been paid.


TAX AGREEMENT WITH NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: 1.	What amounts of money have been paid to the government of the province of Newfoundland since April 1, 1949, by virtue of the recent tax agreement?
2.	On what dates were these payments, and what amount on each occasion?


James Sinclair: 1 and 2. $4,859,747.46, on March 29, 1950.


ESPIONAGE-NOTEBOOK OF KLAUS FUCHS
Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police been able to identify all of the 150 persons then resident in Canada, listed in the notebook found as a result of the espionage investigations of 1945 and 1946, containing the name of Klaus Fuchs?
2.	If not, how many have they been able to identify?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The notebook referred to in the hon. member's question was in fact a pocket address book containing, as the question indicates, the names of 150 persons then resident in Canada. It formed only one item of many thousands of documents seized in the searches made in conjunction with the

Questions
arrest of the spy suspects in 1946. In this mass of material so seized there were many such notebooks, also desk calendars, memo pads, telephone finders, mailing lists, etc., which contained thousands of names, addresses, telephone numbers and miscellaneous entries. All this material was carefully examined, including the notebook in question.
The list of the 150 names referred to was carefully checked to ascertain which of these 150 names, if any, were those of persons who could be suspected of espionage or subversive activity. It was found that a limited number of the persons named belonged to either or both of these groups. In all such cases where positive identification proved possible, the entries were then related to and dealt with on the appropriate investigation files. As some of these investigations are still current, it will be appreciated that it would not be desirable to specify the number of persons identified.
The majority of the entries in this notebook, however, refer to professional people and others of good repute whose loyalty is beyond question.


Mr. Fulfon:: How many of the 150 Canadians listed in the notebook found as a result of the espionage investigations of 1945 and 1946 and containing the name of Klaus Fuchs (a) have been in the employ of the dominion government at any time since June, 1945; (b) are now in the employ of the dominion government?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: This question cannot be
answered with precision in view of the time covered by (a) and the vagueness of the identifying data available in the notebook. It can be said, however, that the number involved was small. With the exception of two persons who appeared before the royal commission on espionage and subsequently relinquished their positions, there can be no reflection upon the loyalty of the other government employees identified.


NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL
Mr. Fulton:: 1.	How mar.y employees of the national research council have been discharged for security reasons since January 1, 1946?
2.	What were the dates of such discharges?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1.	Two.
2.	March 4, 1946, and March 29, 1946.


SOLDIER SETTLERS-SECURITY ON LAND
Mr. Fair:: 1. Under the soldier settlement board legislation dealing with veterans of world war I was it the practice or policy to take a mortgage on a settler's

own land to provide security for the soldier settlement board's loan for the purchase of land?
2.	If so, in how many cases was security taken on the settler's land?
3.	Did the soldier settlement board take foreclosure proceedings to secure title to such land given as security?
4.	If so, in how many instances?


Mr. Mutch:: 1.	Yes, under the terms of section 32 of the Soldier Settlement Act, in some cases where security was insufficient. In other cases, second mortgage was taken; in the case of dominion lands, a charge was registered.
2.	There is no statistical record of these cases, and the expense of examining all soldier settlers' accounts is not considered justified.
3.	Yes, in some cases.
4.	There is no statistical record of these cases, and the expense of examining all soldier settlers' accounts is not considered justified.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	For each branch or department of government as shown at pages 2 and 3 of the estimates for the year ending March 31, 1951, how many different types, sizes and forms of stationery for correspondence are presently authorized?
2.	How many different types, sizes and forms of envelopes are presently authorized?
3.	How many different types, sizes and forms of memorandum paper are presently authorized?


IMPORTS FROM JAPAN
Mr. Hansell:: 1.	What was the value in dollars of imports from Japan during the years 1948 and 1949?
2.	What were the chief classifications of these products in 1949, and what is the value of each?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: Return tabled.


T.C.A.-TRANSPORTATION FOR GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL
Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	What is the total amount paid to the T.C.A. for air transportation for government officers, employees or officials in each of the fiscal years 1948-49 and 1949-50?
2.	Of the said amount what was the amount expended for travelling (a) within; (b) outside of Canada?


R.C.A.F.    TRANSPORTATION FOR MINISTERS AND PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANTS
Mr. Fraser:: 1. What cabinet ministers and parliamentary assistants used R.C.A.F. planes for travel during (a) 1949; (b) first two months of 1950?

2.	Where were these trips to, and was return made by air?
3.	What was charged each department for each of these trips?
4.	What was the estimated cost for each of these trips to (a) the R.C.A.F.; (b) government-owned planes; (c) other commercial planes?


NORTH CHANNEL SHIP AND YACHT REPAIR COMPANY
Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Has any effort been made since May 4, 1950, to ascertain whether Mr. H. K. Hill is connected in any way with the North Channel Ship and Yacht Repair Company?
2.	Is the North Channel Ship and Yacht Repair Company registered at the local registry office at Kingston, Ontario?
3.	If so, who is listed as the owner or proprietor thereof?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Diefenbaker:: For a copy of all engineering reports concerning the feasibility of the South Saskatchewan river and irrigation project that have been received since the first of August, 1949.


John George Diefenbaker: For a copy of all correspondence between the government of Canada and the government of the province of Saskatchewan since June 1, 1949, and to date, in connection with the South Saskatchewan river power and irrigation project, and in particular concerning the division of financial responsibility in and for the construction of the said project as between the two governments.


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. Speaker, may I point out to the hon. member for Lake Centre that the same information as is sought by this motion was requested before and was brought down on April 17.


John George Diefenbaker: I am concerned only
with anything since that date.


James Garfield Gardiner: There has been nothing
since.


John George Diefenbaker: Dropped.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



CARLETON COUNTY, N.B., RURAL MAIL SERVICE

Stanley Howard Knowles: For a copv of all correspondence in the possession of the Post Office Department with reference to the establishing of rural free mail delivery routes for the communities of Holmesville, Mineral, Moose Mountain and Killowen, in Carleton county, New Brunswick, and the eliminating of the post offices at Mineral. Moose Mountain and Killowen, including (without restricting the generality of the foregoing) a copy of all correspondence, and any maps or charts referred to therein, exchanged between the Post Office Department or any officers thereof and Mr. D. R. Bishop.
Inquiries of the Ministry



RADIO BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton):: I should like to ask the Acting Minister of National Revenue if he will give consideration to having items 267 and 268 of the estimates, relating to the international shortwave broadcasting station, referred to the special committee on radio broadcasting for study and report.


Robert Henry Winters: I will take the question
as notice and give an answer later.



ENEMY PROPERTY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops):: I should like
to ask the Secretary of State to be good enough to give the information I asked for on May 16 as a supplementary statement or explanation of an answer to a question I asked about assets of former enemies in the hands of the custodian of enemy property.


Frederick Gordon Bradley: I
have been in touch with the officials of the department, and a statement is being prepared.

The house resumed, from Tuesday, May 23, consideration of the motion of Mr. Fournier (Hull) for committee of supply.



FLOOD CONDITIONS

Mr. Alistair Stewart (Winnipeg North):: Mr. Speaker, I have not time to give continuity to the remarks I was making last night by recapitulating what I said. My concluding words were that we had not yet received word from any senior government as to what financial aid was to be given. I shall deal with the provincial government later. At the moment let me deal with the federal government.
We have been told that aid will be given on the same terms as aid was given to those who suffered from the floods in the Fraser valley. I feel that that would be excellent, if it is correct. I am informed that a grant of $5 million was given to British Columbia in the case of the Fraser valley, which rather more than covered rehabilitation costs. An order in council, P.C. 2644, passed in June, 1948, declared the British Columbia flood to be "a national disaster so serious and pressing

Manitoba Flood
as to make it necessary for the good government of Canada that the government of Canada join with the government of British Columbia in taking relief and rehabilitation measures."
I know of no such statement being made so far about the flood situation in Manitoba. I know that the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has called it a misfortune of the first order, whereas we in Manitoba are inclined to call it, on the basis of our experience, a national disaster. When the Prime Minister was in Winnipeg the other day he attended this by now notorious press conference. He was asked by a reporter if the government had formally recognized the flood as a national emergency. As reported in the Winnipeg Free Press for May 22, 1950, he replied:
I do not like the words "national emergency." When something happens to Canadians, then all Canadians are interested. Already there is ample proof of the widespread effect upon Canadians that this flood has had.
May I say that there is most widespread and generous proof indeed, but not yet proof from the senior governments. At a later stage the Prime Minister was asked if he had found the picture as black as it had been painted, and he replied, "Perhaps not". We are told on the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press that the Prime Minister made a four-hour tour of the dikes. One cannot hope to see the misery which prevails in the community in a tour lasting only four hours. The Prime Minister also said at the same conference that relatives of his had been affected by floods, that they had recovered and re-established themselves by their own efforts, and so far as they were concerned good luck to them. But the Prime Minister's relatives did not have the flood problems from which the people of Point Douglas in Winnipeg are suffering today. Working class people there have lost their homes and their jobs. Families have been evacuated to points all over the prairies.
In British Columbia the grant was for one phase of the flood. We do not know whether that is going to be so in Manitoba. In addition to the grant there was, however, another seventy-five per cent paid by the federal government toward the cost of fighting the floods, and for the building of permanent dikes. I should also like to point out that the commission which has been appointed has been requested to ascertain the cost of emergency precautions to guard against the recurrence of floods. We are not at all interested in emergency precautions. What we are interested in is something much more permanent. It is plain that the federal government must make its position amply clear so that the people of Winnipeg and Manitoba generally may know where they stand.

I think it only right that I should indicate in chronological order the sequence of events. Here I want to refer to the Winnipeg Tribune, a newspaper to which C have made uncomplimentary references in the past and to which I shall probably refer in the same way in future. I am retracting those references for the period of this crisis, however, for this newspaper has shown courage, vision and a consciousness of responsibility which I find heart-warming in a time such as this. On April 4 the newspaper reported that there were serious floods along the Red river in North Dakota. I believe the permanent officials of the provincial government knew of the situation long before that and that they advised their superiors; nevertheless no action was taken. On April 10 this newspaper warned the people that snow and cold would increase the city flood danger. No action was taken by the premier. On April 11 the Tribune warned the city that floods threatened its well-being; still no action by the premier. On April 12 the people of Fort Garry and East Kildonan, without any help, started to reinforce their own dikes; still no word from the premier. On April 14 an agreement was entered into with the Department of National Defence under which the province of Manitoba agreed to pay for whatever services were rendered; yet the services of the army, the navy and the air force were not utilized until May 6.
I can find no explanation for such a lack of action. It may have been a complete failure to appreciate the devastation which threatened. It may have been a matter of pettifogging parsimony; I do not know. I am only reciting facts as I know them.
On April 18 the Red Cross proclaimed that the floods at Grand Forks in the United States were a disaster; no word from the premier. On April 21 the river was over its banks in certain areas of Winnipeg; the premier was quiet. On April 24 the river was two feet under the 1948 peak; still no word from the premier of Manitoba. On the same date Elm Park, a residential area, was cut off; yet the premier was silent. On May 1, as hon. members will recall, members of all parties in this house discussed the matter of the floods in Manitoba, and we urged the premier of that province to declare it a national emergency. Still he was silent. During that week thousands of homes were evacuated; still there was silence. Thousands of people left the city; the silence continued.
Finally, on May 6, Brigadier Morton, G.O.C. prairie command, was appointed controller of flood relief; but let there be no misunderstanding as to the meaning of that word

"controller". It meant very little indeed; ior when I went to the dikes and asked people who was in charge, they said no one was in charge. They were doing the work themselves, without supervision or direction, in order that they might save the city. The army had no power either to requisition materials that were needed or to direct people to the areas which needed help most. During those days the Winnipeg Free Press was asking for some centralized control or authority that could give priority to the needs of the city, but to the best of my knowledge that action was never taken.
When I speak of Brigadier Morton, let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the tremendous efforts of the men of the navy, the army and the R.C.A.F. to help save the city. In particular, my colleagues here from Quebec might be interested to learn that the men of the Vingt-deux regiment played a great part in building that forty-foot dike which today protects the city hydro power station from immersion.
Finally, on May 7, the premier of Manitoba asked the federal government to recognize the situation in that province as a national disaster. Only then did he make his request, but after that he resumed the lethargy which had characterized him up to that time and said nothing more, even though representatives of the city and municipalities went to him and pleaded for some statement as to what part of the cost the province would be prepared to bear. Still there was silence. A meeting of that kind took place only a week ago, and the only result was a wire from the premier to the Prime Minister of Canada asking him to visit the flood area. The premier would give no commitment to those people who were carrying on the battle against the flood. By his silence he piled indecision upon frustration. It is true that night after night he would go on the air to tell the people what he thought was happening. He told of the grand work the people themselves were doing, and of the committees that were going to be set up to help them, but there was not a definite word as to what assistance would be forthcoming to any municipality. Then, just about a week ago today, he told us that his conscience was clear. No one had questioned the clarity of his conscience. No one gave a continental red cent as to the condition of his conscience. A statement like that shows how fatuity has been heaped upon futility by the provincial government throughout.
Today the people are still doing the job that has to be done. Our citizens, without leadership, have shown that inner strength
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which comes to free people in times like these. They went out and provided their own leadership to do the job that had to be done.
My words of criticism of the leadership in the province should not in any way lead hon. members to think that the need for help is not great indeed. There are those who have travelled with tragedy; who, as far as practical offers of help are concerned, are still doomed to dwell in despair. What is the reaction of the premier to this?; Just a few days ago he broke his silence and said that, in cases of need, substantial financial help would be forthcoming. What he meant was that there would be a means test on misery; and that is precisely what is happening. Families have lost everything. There is a tension amongst those who know they have nothing left in the world. There is a tension amongst those who fear they may still lose everything they have; yet we have no leadership and no hope of leadership from the provincial government.
Now, what are the needs? Over 100,000 people have been evacuated. I hope many of them may be able to return to their homes very shortly. Many others will not be able to go back to their homes for several months. Here, then, is a terrific problem in social rehabilitation. How are those people to be kept away from Winnipeg? Who is going to pay the cost if they have to board in other areas or other cities? The Prime Minister says some 8,000 homes have been damaged. I do not think that is correct; I dispute it. The figure is over 12,000 or I miss my guess. Not only have homes been irretrievably damaged; whole city streets have gone. I know of one stretch in my own constituency, at Cathedral and Aikens, which has collapsed to a depth of four feet. Today the city is literally resting on water.
What is the condition of the homes? Take the place in which I used to live, for instance, where the water is right up to the ceiling. Obviously the plaster will be destroyed; and this applies to all homes of that kind. If there is stucco on the outside it will be ruined. If there is insulation it will have soaked up water right to the top storey. All that insulation will have to be torn out; and anyone who knows anything about houses will realize what a task that is. Flooring is completely sprung. Joists, sills and beams are swollen and twisted out of shape, because this water has not been there for only a few days; in many cases it has been there for three weeks, and may well be there for another three weeks. Electrical appliances and electrical wiring are ruined. All these things will have to be rebuilt. In effect new

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houses will have to be built; and that will perhaps give members an indication of the task which faces us.
I maintain that the very least we can do in the face of this disaster, a disaster which perhaps the insurance companies may term an act of God, is that there should be complete rehabilitation for the victims of these floods. I doubt very much whether the generosity of either this government or the provincial government will permit that to be done, because the damage is extraordinary. I would hesitate to hazard a guess, but if I say the damage amounts to $100 million I am sure I shall not be far out. If we are not going to have complete rehabilitation, then I suggest as the very minimum that all those who receive salaries up to $300 a month be put back in their homes as they were before the flood and without cost to them; all those who receive salaries between $300 and $400 a month might perhaps get ninety per cent, and all those between $400 and $500 a month might perhaps receive eighty per cent. All this, of course, would be subject to any payments made by insurance companies.
I suggest further that those who have lost money due to the floods be permitted to charge those losses against income tax next year. There is a commission to assess the damages which has been asked to give this house accurate data. It will not be possible for any commission to give this house accurate data in time for us to consider the report before the house rises. The best it can do is to give us a progress report, but even then the commission will have to be arbitrary. How will it assess the damages? Will it go around to each house, in each locality, and say that so much damage has been suffered? How can the commission state the damage when the damage will not be seen for months yet? There is only one thing which can be done, and that is to make the houses livable, to refurnish them as far as possible so that the owners may live in them. After that, we can find out the cost.
Let me say that the construction industry and the electrical industry in Winnipeg are more than willing to co-operate with civic authorities. They have already indicated they are at the disposal of the municipality in the tremendous task of rebuilding homes. The electrical industry, for instance, has said that a meeting would be held to decide what charges should be made for each particular item of repair. Flat rates would be set up, and there would be no profiteering by that industry. The building industry has to be mobilized, but what about the contractor who has contracts to build other houses? I do not

think this is the time for building new houses. There is too great a problem of rehabilitation, and in some way or other the contractors will have to be protected against suits for breach of contract if they do emergency work. There will be a great demand for skilled craftsmen, such as carpenters, electricians and plasterers. The Department of Labour must,consider this problem. There are not enough craftsmen of these types in Manitoba, so we may need a reserve of skilled labour upon which we can draw.
Those are just some of the problems which face us. I could continue enumerating them almost indefinitely, as I am sure other members could, but time does not permit. There is a job of work to be done. I can assure members that every contribution they make to the fund which is being raised in the house is going to be needed desperately. Every contribution which the people of Canada can make is going to be equally needed. It is not right that the people themselves should have to suffer because of the indecision of their leaders. In the final analysis, the collective responsibility of our society, and the financial power of our society, lies in the parliament of Canada. Our people are stricken. As I said before they are not out, and they never will be out; but they are grievously hurt. The federal government must be more positive than it has been up to the present. It must be more generous than it has yet indicated it intends to be.
May I suggest that at the moment the most practical thing we could do here would be to establish a minimum grant in aid, an interim payment as it were, of about $10 million, which could be given to the provincial government, so that it, in turn, could hand the money over to the municipalities to enable them to assume the responsibility which the provincial government has given up by default.


James Arthur Ross: Mr. Speaker, as has been pointed out by the previous speaker (Mr. Stewart) the Winnipeg Tribune of April 4 carried headlines to the effect that the Red river floods in North Dakota were becoming alarming. Everyone knows that the Red river flows north through Manitoba from North Dakota. It is quite some time since April 4, and I am told by very reliable authorities that the engineers in the United States, from both North Dakota and Minnesota, have shown fine co-operation with the authorities of Manitoba. I believe that to be true.
I wish to refer to a statement by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) which is to be found on page 2478 of Hansard of

May 15. I am not finding fault with the statement, but I want to clarify it to some extent. It reads as follows:
Right from May 6, the day on which Premier Campbell as head of the provincial authorities instructed Brigadier General Morton to take over, he and his staff have been performing a simply magnificent feat of organization and direction.
With that I agree. Now, to people of military service at least, that statement instructing Brigadier General Morton to take over should be clarified. He has only been given authority to fight the flood and to say what districts should be evacuated. That is as far as his authority extends. Then the Red Cross takes over, and it is in charge of the evacuation of the people. I want to say that organization has done a magnificent job. Brigadier Morton and his staff of some 4,000 service personnel and 50,000 civilian volunteers have done a splendid job, as has the Red Cross, the railway companies and their employees, the bus companies and their employees, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Many other organizations have taken part.
I want to make that clear, because many people in Manitoba think that the military had complete authority from that date forward, and that is not so. In fact I shall give the house a concrete example. In Premier Campbell's own constituency there are two airports, one just outside Portage la Prairie, and one at Macdonald. The buildings at these airports I believe could accommodate a thousand people each, but no one had authority to use those buildings. I wanted to make that quite clear. It was referred to in the Winnipeg Free Press of May 12. The editorial reads as follows:
Many people assume that Brigadier Morton, in the present situation, is the agent of the federal government and in charge of the fight against the flood. He is not either one or the other. He is the agent of the province which is paying the cost of the services of the military employed in the flood. Able and resourceful as he is showing himself to be, he has been given no power. He has no powers except over a limited number of military personnel and such results as he can secure by persuasion. The statements regarding the national emergency, made last Saturday and Monday, do not alter in any respect the responsibility of the provincial government.


Mr. Weir:: Would my hon. friend permit me to clarify the matter to which he has referred? Representations were made to me with respect to making the airports around Portage la Prairie available, and I immediately took up the matter with the proper authorities. Incidentally, the ownership of the buildings is an involved matter, but I was finally assured by the Minister of National Defence, that the problem was within the control of
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the army officers in Winnipeg and the buildings would be available for use at their discretion if requested.


James Arthur Ross: I thank the hon. member for that information, but as I have already pointed out, the army authorities have no authority beyond fighting the flood itself and stating what districts should be evacuated. The authority of the armed forces terminated at that point; therefore the responsibility was that of the Manitoba provincial government.


William Gilbert Weir: In that same connection I might say that the army authorities did go to inspect these buildings to which my hon. friend has referred in case they might be needed for greater service in evacuating people. The inspection was made and the whole set-up reviewed as one being available if required.


James Arthur Ross: The parliamentary
assistant to the Minister of Finance made a rather significant statement this afternoon on the orders of the day when he said that the Fraser river valley commission was appointed not so much to obtain information as to do a job, which they did. That seems to be the real difference between the handling of the Fraser river situation in 1948 and the Red river flood of today. There is a real difference. I pointed that out to the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) yesterday when I asked him whether he had any idea as to when this commission might report. I also pointed out to him how difficult it might be for him to answer the question. Apparently this commission can get information only and report back, as I understand it. I may be wrong.	,
I asked further whether there had been a request from the Manitoba government for an interim grant, as was done for the British Columbia government in the Fraser river flood in 1948, and the Prime Minister said, not to his knowledge. I am surprised there has not been a request of that kind from the provincial government.
If one has not seen the situation out there, as has the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson), the Prime Minister, and I think all the members from Manitoba, one cannot appreciate it. I was there on the first day of the evacuation to any great extent. On the night before I was there and on that day they moved out over 15,000 people. I talked with railway people who had not slept for forty-eight hours. Unless you saw these mothers and little children gathered around them with no means left, you cannot appreciate it. I went through one of the special trains and I interviewed many people who had not a dollar of

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their own money with them. The Red Cross had looked after the transportation, but they were not sure where they were going.
Apart from shells bursting over a city, I have never seen anything that looked more like the picture I witnessed during the first war in France and Belgium when the evacuation from the front lines area was taking place. That is how it impressed me at that time. These people have gone through a great deal. Since then-I am not sure of the figures-in the neighbourhood of 100,000 people have been evacuated from Winnipeg. The people, who out of the generosity of their hearts have taken these families into their homes, and the municipal corporations, are responsible for them.
Yesterday I received a letter from the mayor of a town in my constituency which is at the far end of the province from Winnipeg. They are happy to be looking after these people, and he told me of their problems. He said that the town corporation and the rural municipalities are financing the entire business without, so far, a promise of reimbursement from anybody. He was not complaining about it. He was writing about some other matters, and happened to point out the situation.
As a citizen of Manitoba I am very sorry to say that the only organization that has failed, and has failed miserably to date, has been our provincial government and our Premier Campbell. I do not think people can misconstrue my making that statement, because I have been a supporter of the coalition government. I voted for one of their candidates last fall. I am ashamed of the situation today. I have been in and out of Winnipeg several times in the past few days and have seen this matter from several angles, and what I say is my candid opinion. I want to say in all fairness that some departments of the government and many government employees have done and are doing a magnificent job with respect to the disastrous Manitoba Red river flood problem. I think I should say that on behalf of these people.


An hon. Member:: The department of public works?


James Arthur Ross: I am not mentioning any names. I want to say that they too did a good job. I did not see the minister of public works when I was in Winnipeg, but I have seen his staff. I can tell you that on one Sunday the entire staff worked from daylight to dark.
I do not know where the minister was. I presume he was busy in cabinet council. As I say, I did not see him. The deputy minister of public works and his staff worked from 
daylight to dark and did a magnificent job,, as did other members of the provincial government. I saw that myself.
I want to say something about the statement of Mayor Garnet Coulter*, whom I have known for many years. In fact when I had the honour of being president of the Manitoba union of municipalities he was then an aider-man in the city of Winnipeg and a member of the executive serving with me. I always considered him a mild-mannered, even-tempered, careful public official, careful about his statements. I think anybody else who has known him will bear me out in that statement. When I read in the newspapers that he was reported as saying-and as I listened to the report over the air-that Premier Campbell was guilty of criminal negligence, I was surprised. I was surprised at that language coming from him, but that is how serious the matter has become.
Many of us from Manitoba used to know Mrs. McQueen and her husband, who was killed in an air crash going west doing war service work. Mrs. McQueen is now doing social service work in Manitoba. According to the press, she used the very same terms. This is a serious business. Both of these public officials stated that Premier Campbell and his government were guilty of causing undue mental suffering to many of these people. As I say, I am sorry about that whole situation.
I said something about the municipalities taking care of these people. On the radio farmers for forty or fifty miles around Winnipeg who had farm tractors that were useful, large trucks and all that kind of thing, were appealed to. They were asked to come in and use that equipment in Winnipeg. I witnessed some of these huge trucks getting into difficulties in the subway going across to St. Boniface. You have all heard and read much of the Norwood dike. I want to tell you of the great piece of human effort that was put into that dike. It has been nothing short of a miracle that it has stood up and that there has been no great loss of life. But I watched those huge trucks going into the subway in several feet of water. The motors would stall, and a caterpillar tractor would be hitched onto them in an endeavour to pull them out and the chain would snap. Any man who is familiar with machinery or is of a mechanical turn of mind knows what damage that would do to those motors and to that equipment. These farmers have been doing that kind of work, supplying their own gas and fuel and that type of equipment without any promise of satisfactory reimbursement. In fact those from Manitoba will bear this in mind. The [DOT]See also page 2850.

city of St. Boniface has gone through financial difficulties, and they are not yet in a position to make expenditures of that kind freely. They are making a great comeback; it is a great city, but they are in an embarrassing financial situation right now. I just give that as a concrete example of the difficulties.
There is a great deal of that kind of work being done by private individuals, and some municipalities are not even in shape to reimburse those people who should at least have some definite promise, because it is just about two months since the first warning was given; and even the rural people, whom we are now forgetting to some extent because of the great disaster in the city of Winnipeg, were first to be overrun in this flood. Their homes were flooded, and many of them were destroyed. Some of their stock were lost and they went through terrible difficulties. That is now quite a while ago.
I do not want to repeat many of the arguments that have been made by the previous speakers. I recently received a letter from the Winnipeg chamber of commerce, dated May 15, 1950, which reads as follows:
At an emergent meeting of the executive of the Winnipeg chamber of commerce held Saturday morning, the following resolution was unanimously adopted:
The chamber Is strongly of the opinion that capital costs and/or restoration and reconstruction of damage occasioned by the flood are the sole responsibility of senior governments and that the chamber make strong representation to the authorities concerned in support of this position. Further, that funds supplied by these governments be administered by a strong independent commission appointed jointly by the senior governments.
With that resolution I agree. That is the least that can be expected.
Then, with respect to the campaign for funds for Manitoba flood relief, in my opinion that certainly deserves the wholehearted support of every citizen and every organization throughout the nation. One may hear the argument that this was advertising on the part of the T. Eaton Company. But, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Van-couver-Quadra (Mr. Green) in connection with the great contributions made by people throughout this nation to the Fraser valley flood relief, I can tell you that if some people had been living in Manitoba, where I was, last year, and listened to some ministers of this government stating that you could not trust a past head of an Ontario government, and other eastern people, then this contribution by this great company which originated in the east is very heartening.
It is heartening to know that the T. Eaton Company and other companies have done
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what they have. One thinks of the employees of the T. Eaton Company, which originated in eastern Canada, raising over $153,000, and this sum was matched dollar for dollar by the company executive, making a total of $307,000 from that organization. Surely that gives one fresh faith in humanity. That is being done not only within this nation, but in other nations throughout the world.
I hold in my hand a quotation which states:
To pity distress is but human; to relieve it is God-like.
So long ago wrote the American philosopher Horace Mann as he meditated on the spontaneous kindness of warm-hearted people of differing faiths and beliefs as they instinctively rushed to aid their fellow human beings in great distress.
The people of southern Manitoba have suffered a catastrophe from flood unequalled in the history of Canada. All those in a rural area containing twelve towns and villages, seventy miles long and thirty miles wide, have been obliged suddenly to leave their farms and homes. Everything they possessed is under water, much of their belongings and a good deal of their livestock and seed is destroyed. Tens of thousands of city people in Winnipeg likewise have had to flee from their homes, leaving behind clothing, household equipment, furniture and possessions of all kinds.
These thousands of refugees-men, women and children alike-now sit sad and bewildered in strange places, far from their once happy farms and homes, wondering what the future holds for them.
But their hearts will be gladdened, their spirits uplifted and their hopes renewed as they hear the tidings that their warm-hearted fellow citizens are donating generously to the Manitoba flood relief fund. Contributions made to this most worthy fund will relieve human distress and, more, will ennoble the giver.
I should like to refer to a question asked on the orders of the day. I did realize that the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) announced that contributions of this nature would be exempt from taxation. I believe that under the act goes to the extent of five per cent for corporations and ten per cent for individuals of income. I know personally of individuals who have already obligated themselves to charitable institutions to the extent of ten per cent of their incomes. Some people did that for their churches alone.
Then, in respect of corporations, it has been pointed out by an organization in Toronto that if full exemptions were granted in respect of contributions, throughout the province of

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Ontario alone one-half the proposed fund of $10 million would be raised. They point out that they believe those corporations would raise $5 million in that province alone. Surely this should be given serious consideration. I know of individuals who, as I say, have obligated themselves to the extent of ten per cent to their churches alone. There are branches of the Legion, and many other charitable institutions to which people make donations each year. If they wish to increase those amounts, surely they should be granted exemptions above the ten per cent for individuals and the five per cent for corporations.
I do not know how to go about it, but I would like to be able to bring some pressure to bear on our provincial government, to give a greater lead for the benefit of these poor, suffering human beings in Manitoba. I have talked with people who have put all their investments into their homes in Winnipeg. In earlier statements I have referred more particularly to rural areas. But those people in Winnipeg have been paying for their homes on the instalment plan, and buying furniture in the same way, in many cases to the extent that they did not have a dollar with which to get out of the flooded area. Surely the senior governments will give these people a greater lead than they have yet seen.
I have seen some terribly disappointed people out there. And while the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) is sitting here I wish to say this, that I have heard many people in Winnipeg state publicly that they think the premier of Manitoba has depended too much for advice on the ex-premier of Manitoba, now the minister from Manitoba in this government. If that is not right, then I hope the Minister of Justice will make it clear, because one may take that from his statement which can be read in Hansard for May 1.
As I say, that is the prevalent feeling among those people. Many thousands are in a troubled state of mind. I hope that as members of this House of Commons we can put pressure on the provincial government in Manitoba to give greater leadership to the people of that province who are greatly distressed as a result of this most terrible catastrophe that has befallen any part of this nation.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Mr. Speaker, it certainly had not been my intention to take part in this debate. I feel sure that if the level which was set by the admirable statement by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) had been maintained, I never should have taken part in it. Let me pay my small tribute to the leader of the opposition:

there have been very few occasions where in any gathering I have heard a statement that was more appropriate to the occasion than the one he made in this same connection yesterday.
It is therefore most regrettable that the hon. member who has just taken his seat has not seen fit to follow the example of his leader.


James Arthur Ross: My leader has not been out on the ground there yet.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I would repeat my statement whether my hon. friend the leader of the opposition had been on the ground or not because, if I may be permitted to say so, I have sufficient confidence in the leader of the opposition to believe that if he had been there he would still act in the same way he did yesterday.
May I make this clear, that I speak today in this House of Commons with a strong bias. Members of the present Manitoba government, both Liberal and Conservative, were personal friends and colleagues of mine over a considerable period of years. During that time I had never associated with men of greater loyalty, better judgment or greater experience in public life than they displayed. The very Premier Campbell, whom my hon. friend from Souris (Mr. Ross) now traduces, is a man who went into the legislature in 1922 and has continued to enjoy the confidence of his constituents, and whose government has continued to enjoy the confidence of the people of Manitoba during the intervening twenty-eight years. '
Speaking with that bias, and speaking in my capacity as a private member of this House of Commons-not as a member of the government-I think it is very desirable that there should be placed upon the record certain facts if for no other reason than that the position of Manitoba shall not be misrepresented in respect of the appeal for funds which is being made.
I am free to confess that, although these gentlemen are friends of mine, in one important respect they have been, in my judgment, derelict.
In this modern age when industry and government pay a good deal of attention to public relations, and for the most part have their public relations in the hands of professionals, my friends and former colleagues in Manitoba were. so busy doing a job that I regret to say they seriously neglected to tell the people of Manitoba and the world of the job they were doing. Having regard to the fact that in a disaster of this sort the maintenance of public confidence is an important element in the handling

of the situation I would be free to confess that in that regard they are subject to criticism.
In respect of that shortcoming, they provided their own penalty of being seriously misjudged by a number of sincere people, two of whom we have heard this afternoon in this debate. For in spite of the fact that I disagree with both hon. gentlemen in some matters I believe they are fair-minded and would not be disposed to criticize too severely if they were convinced there was no proper ground for doing so.
I intend to relate certain facts this afternoon, but I do not think I could achieve any greater over-all effect upon the minds of my listeners than by describing a short episode which took place when the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) met the reeves and mayors and representatives of the municipalities concerned in the Fort Garry hotel in Winnipeg last Sunday night.
Because of the travel over water and land that was necessary many of the reeves in the rural areas found it impossible to be present, but there was at least one reeve from a rural area present. I had rather gained the impression from this storm of criticism which appeared in certain newspapers and on the part of certain members of the House of Commons that when this meeting with the representatives of the municipalities took place there would be more protest and criticism against both governments, in particular against the provincial government which was represented at the meeting by Premier Campbell himself.
When his turn came to report, this rural reeve said, "We have no complaint to make. We were advised six weeks ago by a representative of the provincial government in plenty of time to make all necessary preparations for the flood. Of course no kind of preparation would enable us to cope with a flood of this size. But we took every step that was possible and were as well prepared as we could be for the flood when it did come." He then went on to relate what assistance they had been receiving, and I intend to lay the statistics with regard to this assistance before the house, and indicated that they wanted to carry on on that basis.
There was none of the deep anxiety and apprehension voiced by the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart), nor was there any of the criticism that has been voiced by the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross). These people were right in the middle of the flood and were responsible to the municipal citizens. -All this bears 55946-178
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out a report which I placed on the record on one of the previous occasions when I addressed the house.


James Arthur Ross: To what official is the minister referring?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: It was Reeve Arthur Beau-bien of St. Jean, whom my hon. friend knows personally and who is a very good man.


James Arthur Ross: He is.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Of course he is. This experience bears out what I told the members of this house on a previous occasion when I voiced my admiration for what the provincial government had done.
May I say to the hon. member for Souris, if he thinks I am trying to take some credit for having advised them, that I must expressly disclaim it because being a reasonably modest man I do not undertake to advise people how to cope with a disaster which is taking place 1,500 miles away when they are in the midst of it and I am on the outside.
The report I previously put on the record was made in writing by John Conner, head of the livestock branch of the department of agriculture. If I am not mistaken, the hon. member for Souris said that he is a very fine man.


James Arthur Ross: He certainly is. I know him quite well.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Hon. members will perhaps recall that the first report was made on April 28 after he had returned from a trip through this area. He stated that he had gone out to warn the people that a flood was coming. Reeve Beaubien told us that the provincial authorities had warned him, had told him that the flood would be two feet higher than it was in 1948, and that the steps they would have to take to meet the situation would have to take that additional height into account. Conner's report was to the effect that many farmers, having so recently suffered the 1948 flood, had taken steps already before he warned them to evacuate their animals, their seed, their feed and the like.
It certainly does not look as though the government were lacking in foresight. It does not look as though they were, as I understood the hon. member for Souris to imply, paying no attention to the views of United States engineers. But they did not have to pay any attention to the views of United States engineers. At a critical stage of the flood they brought up a man-


James Arthur Ross: I gave credit to certain departments and to certain government officials for the splendid work that was being done.

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Stuart Sinclair Garson: I shall deal with the departments to which my hon. friend did not give credit. By a most extraordinary coincidence the department to which he gave credit, public works, happens to be headed by a Conservative minister.


James Arthur Ross: The minister has referred to Mr. Conner, who is a member of the department of agriculture in the provincial government. He is one of the finest officials in the government.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: My hon. friend and I can agree that Mr. Conner is a fine man.


Mr. Bryce:: I will agree with that also.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: As I was saying, they did not need to have the advice of United States engineers because when they brought a United States engineer up to Manitoba at the request of certain people who wanted to be reassured one statement that he made was this: "I wonder why you went to the trouble of bringing me up here from the Twin Cities when you have here in the person of Don Stephens, deputy minister of mines and resources, a man who knows more about the Red river than I." I believe the hon. member for Souris will agree with that.


James Arthur Ross: I respect him as an
engineer.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: That was the basis of the information that they had; that was the basis of the action that was taken. At an early stage in the proceedings the government of Manitoba entered into an agreement. This was a long while before Brigadier Morton was put in charge; that came later. They entered into an agreement in case the flood, which it was anticipated would be two feet higher than the 1948 level, by some unforeseen circumstance rose to a still greater height, to provide that the army would in the meanwhile have some legal status and be ready to take over at a moment's notice. The prognostication of the engineers proved to be remarkably accurate. The flood rose to about that level.
I remember the circumstances very well because I was in the midst of them a little over two weeks ago when I visited Winnipeg over that week end. I am sure that those who have been back to their constituencies will bear me out that for a couple of days there were heavy rains throughout the whole of the Red river valley.


Mr, Ross (Souris):: And snow.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The expert brought from the United States is authority for the statement that those rains, falling on the various tributary streams in the Red river valley, accounted for not less than an increase of

four feet in the level of the river. This created in a matter of a day, in fact in a matter of hours, an emergency of the direst character. On Friday or Saturday night-I am not sure which-after I had had a pretty strenuous day spent in part on the river in the Kingston Crescent area, I was on the point of going to bed when I received an emergency telephone call from Premier Campbell asking me to attend a meeting of all the city and municipal authorities, engineers, officials of the health department, various other civic and provincial officials, the army, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Red Cross and the like to deal with this emergency piled upon an emergency created by the heavy rainfall on top of the spring flood.
I cannot recall whether I indicated this before, but one of the first steps that had to be taken after midnight that night was to evacuate the tuberculosis and contagious diseases hospitals operated by the city of Winnipeg in the Riverview area. Because of the great rainfall that was taking place the dikes in that area were said by the engineers to be in such a condition that they could not guarantee they would hold until morning. If the leadership and the provision for the immediate future to which my hon. friend has referred was one-quarter as bad as he painted it, they might have had casualties in evacuating those hospitals. In a matter of minutes almost they had to evacuate people suffering from tuberculosis and contagious diseases, and transfer them to another hospital where provision for quarantine had to be made. If the government had not three weeks before, with the assistance and co-operation of the Red Cross, made all the necessary arrangements for the evacuation of those hospitals, it would have been impossible to carry it out that night.


John George Diefenbaker: To which government does the minister refer?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I am referring to the provincial government. It would have been impossible to accomplish this evacuation if the provincial authorities were as bad as the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) says they were. Practically out of a blue sky we were told by these highly competent engineers-


James Arthur Ross: Which department would that be?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The engineers?


James Arthur Ross: No, the one concerned with the evacuation.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: That would be the health department.


James Arthur Ross: I give high credit to the department and its minister right now, and he is a Liberal too.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I am very glad to hear that. We may gradually get down to the things my hon. friend thinks were not right. It appears to me that he is searching around for a scapegoat upon whom to put all the sins of Israel.


James Arthur Ross: No, I am not.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: We can be sure the scapegoat will not be a Conservative. To give hon. members some conception of how urgent the situation was, the meeting lasted until about half past two in the morning. At that meeting Brigadier Morton and the army were put in charge of the whole situation. When the hon. member for Souris, and to a lesser extent the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart), although I am not quite sure that I understood the meaning of all he said because although I am a Scotsman myself-


James Arthur Ross: You are not Scotch enough.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: May I ask
on what point the minister is not clear?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: There was the odd word or phrase I did not get the meaning of, and therefore I am refraining from quoting my hon. friend to any great extent.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: What I said was that the army did not have effective control.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I am glad to have that interjection because the position the hon. member takes is pretty much the same as that of the hon. member for Souris.


James Arthur Ross: It is true, isn't it?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I am coming to that very point, and this is a good introduction to my remarks. I speak with a certain amount of personal knowledge because I was present and took some part in the meeting which decided to put the army in charge. The Red Cross and all these other organizations were represented there and, believe me, Mr. Speaker, we did not split any legal hairs or engage in legal technicalities as to the precise legal status of the army. Everyone present at the meeting agreed to have Brigadier Morton put in charge. They wanted to have one man to boss the show and they said, "If you come in we will do what you tell us." He said, "I am quite willing to tell you what to do but I want your advice. You advise me as to the decisions I have to make when I order you and we shall all get along splendidly together." And that is how they have got along.
55946-178|
Manitoba Flood
I am sure that the hon. member for Winnipeg North and the hon. member for Souris will not say that the achievements of the people of Manitoba and of Winnipeg during the emergency were in any way inconsiderable. They have been great achievements. For example, miles of the most formidable dikes were constructed. With all deference to the arguments of the hon. member for Souris and the hon. member for Winnipeg North, I do not think that such achievements would have been possible if the degree of disorganization existed which it has been their purpose to urge was the case in their arguments this afternoon.
The fact of the matter is that the organizations represented at the meeting that night either expressly or by clearly implicit terms pledged the co-operation which they have given in full measure ever since. Their co-operation, together with the support of the people of that community given without stint, have made possible their achievements in fighting the flood.
The provincial government is supposed not to have done anything at all to help the municipalities. I will not get into any argument over this. I am now going to talk about the department of public works, of which my hon. friend's friend is the head. They gave every support they could; sandbags, sand, pumps, motors of various types and so on The province supplied these materials, largely for the municipalities, at a total cost to date of some $1,750,000. I do not know whether my hon. friend knew that was the
mint WhSn he W3S criticizing the govern-


James Arthur Ross: I certainly did. I got it firsthand on Sunday in Winnipeg, when you were in the same building.	[DOT]


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Then if my hon. friend was trying to give a balanced, careful, accurate representation of the situation to his fellow members of the house, I am at a loss to understand why he did not tell us that.


James Arthur Ross: I was talking about the head and most of the members of the government. I give high praise to the department of health and its officials.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The government provided well on to five million sandbags, and they had to be handled three times. That handling was largely carried on by the provincial department of public works. Outside of the cities of Winnipeg and St. Boniface and possibly some of the suburbs, that department was dealing with municipalities which had no engineering staffs capable of coping with a disaster of this magnitude, and it provided all

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the engineering advice for all the municipalities involved in the disaster. It brought from various parts of Manitoba all its road building and other grading machinery, and put it on the dikes to meet the emergency.
When I say this I do not mean to suggest for a moment that there is anything extraordinary about it. That is what they did. That is what they should have done, but having done these things it does not seem fair that they should be accused of having been deficient and inadequate in their provisions to meet this situation.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Can the
minister tell us how many sandbags were made available? I said last evening that in West Kildonan there were none, and the municipality could not afford to buy them. I believe that is so.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: In speaking of some particular area my hon. friend may be quite right. I have already given the number of sandbags made available through this source, which was close to five million.


James Arthur Ross: Over four and a half million, I am told.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: My hon. friend is checking me up.


James Arthur Ross: I was around there.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I know, and my hon. friend is quite right; the figure is between four and a half and five million. Manitoba is not a large province. The public works department has not a large staff, but of that staff they had an average of ninety men engaged continuously in this flood work. In the mines and resources branch they had over ninety men working full-time on the floods. Of the equipment in that other branch, which is not large, they had over forty pieces of automotive equipment working, four yawl boats, a large number of canoes, outboard motors and seventeen pumps. All the equipment they could lay hands on was thrown into this emergency.
Then I think perhaps the department of agriculture is another department of which the hon. member for Souris approves. Already they have distributed 700 tons of hay, or about sixty carloads, for feeding stranded and evacuated animals; and of their small staff they have had twenty men working steadily from the beginning of this disaster. Through the efforts of the staff of that department, including the same John Conner whom my hon. friend admires, they have evacuated six thousand head of livestock, and have co-operated in the evacuation by private efforts of another three thousand

head. It was they who made the arrangements for pasture and care; because, as in the case of human beings, it is one thing to take them from a place of danger and another thing to make proper provision for them in a place of safety. I think I am safe in saying that thanks to the recollection the farmers had of the 1948 flood, and thanks to the timely and adequate warnings given by the provincial government, the total number of livestock evacuated, some nine thousand, was very much larger than the total number lost in the floods. I think my hon. friend will agree with that.


James Arthur Ross: Certainly.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: They have also made other arrangements. They have set up a seed grain committee to make sure that seed and feed of all kinds are available, with particular reference to coarse grains, the only crop that can be put in at this late date with any hope of success. They have arranged to have a supply of transplants of all the standard vegetables ready for the market gardeners. A farm machinery director and committee have been set up to arrange for the reconditioning of the tractors, trucks and other farm machinery damaged by the flood.


James Arthur Ross: The good old Massey-Harris Company.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Perhaps, though some people think highly of International Harvester.


James Arthur Ross: I use all International Harvester machines myself, but I give thanks to Massey-Harris for doing this.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The provincial department of agriculture is taking the lead, along with the local people, in arranging co-operative feeding assistance from the area outside the flooded portion, and arrangements are being made now for the return of the livestock from the places to which it has been evacuated.
Strangely enough the next department I come to is another that my hon. friend admires; that is the department of health and public welfare.	We have not struck
a single department yet that he does not admire; but when you add together all the parts he does admire they make up a whole which he does not admire. In the health department the organization of health facilities to meet flood conditions was undertaken six weeks ago, coincident with the advice from the engineers and the allocation at that time of extra staff to the threatened areas. It was only by reason of those provisions that when we had to evacuate people from the tuberculosis and contagious diseases hospitals, following two days of rain, it was

possible to do so safely and avoid the worst kind of disaster. When that meeting broke up at half-past two in the morning it had been arranged that the Free Press siren was to sound a warning which would indicate that a dike had broken. Having a few things to clean up, it was three o'clock when we walked out of the office where the meeting had taken place, and the first siren had gone before we left. We were praying that it would not be the siren for the Riverview dike. All those people were evacuated, involving the moving of seven hundred patients into Saskatchewan, the province to which most of them were taken.


James Arthur Ross: A great airlift job was done that Sunday.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: That is right; it was a great airlift job, which would have been impossible if proper provisions had not been made in advance to take care of it. One of the things that they had to take care of was the obvious need for drinking water throughout the flooded area. It had to be moved in by tank car. Provision for that was made by the department of health and public welfare. Then, free vaccine had to be provided against typhoid for 125,000 people, and a reserve sufficient for 60,000 people had to be built up. In meeting this need all the supplies of vaccine in Canada were exhausted, and it had to be flown in from places as far away as New York city. Plans have already been organized and worked out for health control at municipal level during the return and rehabilitation of the evacuees. I am informed that at every place in the flooded area where there is what they term a beachhead, there is a representative of the health and welfare department on hand to take care of the people as they move back.
The member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart) was rather harsh in his criticism of the two governments for not having used this magic term "national emergency".


Alistair McLeod Stewart: My complaint was that it had been used in the Fraser valley flood, but not in this case.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Yes, that is right. I should like to think, Mr. Speaker, that some magic existed in these words, but I must confess I have not been able to find any support for that idea. In these cases it seems to me that the principle is quite clear. If I am a farmer and suffer from a hail storm when I have not provided hail insurance, that is my misfortune. If the disaster is municipality wide, there is some foundation for moving-it is largely on the basis of public opinion-the municipal corporation to make some provision at the expense of the general body of
Manitoba Flood
taxpayers for those who have suffered the misfortune. When the disaster gets beyond municipal competence, then it is necessary for the province to step in to aid the municipality. When it gets beyond the competence of the provincial government, which in the case of both the Fraser river valley and the Red river valley flood was the set of circumstances with which we were faced, then the federal government has to step in to help the provincial government and the municipalities. It is done in somewhat the same way, although this is not perhaps a good analogy, as the matter of relief during the thirties. I wish to make it clear at once that I do not think that is the proper way to handle relief. In respect, however, of matters which in the first instance come under municipal and provincial authority, that is the method of handling them, as my hon. friend knows. It has always been done in that way. It is the facts of the case, rather than the magic of the words used, which determine how the cost is to be divided between the governments.
The thing to be done in the present case is to ascertain the facts, and then on the basis of the facts to make claims. But in saying that I admit, and that is one of my criticisms of the Manitoba government, the psychological value of using the term "national disaster". It makes an appropriate conces-' sion to a state of mind, but so far as the final disposition of the matter is concerned nothing turns on the use of the term.


John George Diefenbaker: You used the words "national disaster" in the order in council relating to the Fraser river disaster, and you omitted those words from the order in council respecting the Red river valley disaster.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Yes, that is correct; but there are reasons for that. I believe that in the British Columbia case the term had been used in the negotiations, and carried over into the order in council. The actual basis is, as I am sure my friend agrees from his knowledge of the principles that are involved, where the disaster goes beyond the financial or administrative competence of the province, the federal government, having a responsibility to the same body of citizens, has to step in. In this case it was beyond not only the financial but the administrative competence of the Manitoba government. No provincial government, no matter how efficient and capable, has a staff available to deal with a disaster of this sort. All the existing staff of that government are doing jobs they are supposed to do, and the army is the obvious organization to take care of the matter.


John George Diefenbaker: Will the minister permit a question, in view of his most interesting

Manitoba Flood
recital and his statement that the omission of the words "national emergency" from the Red river order in council has no significance. This simple question will remove any doubt as to his meaning. In effect the federal government paid 81 per cent of the cost of rehabilitating the property that was damaged in the Fraser flood, and building permanent dikes to prevent a recurrence. Is the same course going to be followed in the Red river valley?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I think if my hon. friend reflected upon that for a moment he would not ask the question. Precisely the same course cannot be followed because there are no dikes in Manitoba comparable to those in British Columbia. As my hon. friend knows, in British Columbia the larger portion of the federal contribution was to rebuild an elaborate set of dikes along the Fraser river. What has been said in the present case is that the principle of the Fraser valley settlement will be applied-to what?


John George Diefenbaker: To what extent, that is all I want to know.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: There is no limitation upon
the extent. I am sure the hon. member will agree with me when I say that, as a lawyer, he knows you apply principles to-what? You apply principles to facts, and it is not yet certain that the facts of the Manitoba disaster have all taken place as yet. If we have another two days of rain, as we had a while ago, we shall have more facts to deal with than we have right now.


John George Diefenbaker: It will become a greater national emergency, that is all.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Right. Then when those facts have been ascertained, the two governments will get together and apply the principle of the Fraser valley settlement. This government of Canada has not arrogated to itself the responsibility or privilege of finding all the facts. A fact-finding board has been set up by the two governments for this purpose. I think I should say a word or two about it. I believe the member for Souris (Mr. Ross) is under a misapprehension, as is the member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart). There is this difference between the Fraser river valley board and the one that has been set up in Manitoba. The one set up in Manitoba went into a situation that was already under the direction of the army, the Red Cross, the government and so on. The administrative end of it had already been taken care of. One of the first jobs of the Fraser valley board was to start this administration. The sole task of the Manitoba two-man commission will be to ascertain, as quickly as possible, all the facts and report them as promptly as possible to the two governments.


John George Diefenbaker: What do you mean by "the facts"?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Well-


John George Diefenbaker: The loss?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: May I ask this question? It is such a simple thing. If responsibility has been accepted by the dominion government, does it intend to do what it did in British Columbia, namely, accept 75 per cent of the financial loss, the 25 per cent to be allocated as between the province and the municipalities?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I do not think I should spend too much time discussing this Fraser river valley thing with my hon. friend. He has not the facts straight.


John George Diefenbaker: Oh, yes. I have the Free Press here. I was reading it a moment ago.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I am not speaking from the Free Press. I am speaking from the documents themselves. The settlement in connection with the Fraser river, as my hon. friend knows, consisted of two things: one, the payment of 75 per cent of the cost of rebuilding the dikes, and two, a lump sum settlement of $5 million which was based upon a set of facts.


John George Diefenbaker: That is right.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: In this case, when the facts are known the settlement will be determined, and the settlement, having been determined, will be administered by the province, as it was in the case of British Columbia, and as it must be in all these cases.


John George Diefenbaker: Therefore you have not determined whether it is going to be 75 per cent or less that the government of Canada is going to assume?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Well-


Alistair McLeod Stewart: It may have to be more.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: There is your answer.


John George Diefenbaker: At least 75 per cent. Do you accept that?


Mr. Stewart (Yorkton):: When is the river going down?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: There was some criticism by the hon. member for Winnipeg North of the statement which was issued in Winnipeg by Premier Campbell saying that compensation for property loss would be paid on the basis of need. As I have said to the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) before, I wish to

disclaim credit for any of this advice to Premier Campbell that he was attributing to me.


James Arthur Ross: I was passing on other comments.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I see. But I think probably Premier Campbell may have had some other advisers. He had a delegation from the C.C.F. party in Winnipeg, and they brought in a memorandum which was signed by the hon. member for Winnipeg North, the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bryce) and many of the local representatives. This is what it said. I am not implying any criticism; it is an intelligent and proper suggestion.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: The minister will remember that in my speech I defined the word '"need."


Stuart Sinclair Garson: The hon. member may have, but I am going to read the statement he signed and it will speak for itself. The statement reads:
As members ol parliament and of the Manitoba legislature, we strongly urge the government of Canada and the government of Manitoba to make an immediate and definite statement that proper compensation will be provided individual farmers, home owners and tenants of the Red river valley and of greater Winnipeg, for personal and property losses that they have suffered in this disastrous flood. It is our firm conviction that the two governments, federal and provincial, should state now that financial assistance of this kind will be provided. Assurance of financial aid has been given in general terms but it is extremely important that it be made clear immediately that such financial aid will include compensation for the individuals who need it.
When the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross) is casting around to find out who is the adviser to Mr. Campbell may I say that he will find a very good example right in the document I am reading. That is the basis of need, if it means anything at all. Then it goes on:
Thousands of people have lost heavily . . .
Would the house like me to read it all?


Major James William Coldwell: You had better put it all on.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Yes. I continue:
Thousands of people have lost heavily and many have lost everything and will find it impossible to re-establish themselves without assistance. Our pledge to the people of Manitoba is to do everything within our power to persuade the two governments to take such action. Next to the immediate emergency, this matter of compensation for individual victims of the flood, so far as we are concerned, has top priority.
May I suggest that that is a very clear indication that the compensation should be made on the basis of need.
My only reason for intervening in this debate was that, in line with the admirable
Manitoba Flood
statement made by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew), I thought if we were to have any attacks or criticisms on any person connected with this matter, it is only fair that if we are to have one side of the story we should have the other side. I am sure the hon. member for Souris will agree with that.


James Arthur Ross: Always.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: I think he well knows that I should place against this rather harsh criticism that he has made nothing more than just the statement of the facts, and it is with that unvarnished statement of facts that I close my remarks.


William Scottie Bryce: I was not here last week to take part in the debate that went on in connection with the floods. I was out in Winnipeg getting firsthand information. When I landed in Winnipeg, along with the hon. member for Winnipeg South (Mr. Mutch), I was alarmed when I saw the constituency of the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Viau). It was practically all water. It was the most terrible thing that I had ever seen. After having lived there for thirty years, and seeing it that morning, I thought it was terrible. We would need somebody with the ability and eloquence of Mr. Brockington or of John Fisher to describe it adequately. It is too bad that either of those gentlemen with no axe to grind could not have visited the area and written a story. It would give the rest of Canada a picture of what has taken place. It would bring it home to them perhaps better than anything else.
I had the opportunity of meeting the mayor of Winnipeg, the mayor of St. Boniface and the reeves of the different municipalities around Winnipeg, some of them from my own constituency, and some of them from outside my own constituency. Naturally I confined most of my activities to my own constituency along the Assiniboine river, St. James and West Kildonan.
I have heard different hon. gentlemen speak about the number of houses that have been damaged and we get different figures. I do not think I should attempt to say how many because the area is so great. When you look at the constituency of the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Jutras) from the air, there is nothing but water. Everything is ruined there. It will not be possible for these farmers to have a crop this year. Not only will they lose their buildings; they have lost their livestock. They have lost their feed, and they will lose a year's work as well. The men in the city are losing their work. Of course they are still working because they are on the dikes.

Manitoba Flood


Major James William Coldwell: They are working for nothing.


William Scottie Bryce: They are working for nothing, but they are working to keep Winnipeg on the map. I tried to estimate the number of homes that were damaged between that part of the constituency of the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart), that is on Scotia street, and along West Kildonan, in my own constituency. I think I would be quite safe in saying that 800 homes had been severely damaged, as well as many more in the municipality of St. James. I think the reeve agreed with me that 200 homes would be damaged there or at least under water.
I travelled along with the hon. member for Winnipeg North. We both wore waders or rubber boots. Hon. members can imagine the disadvantage I was at in trying to go into water that he could go into. But we were able to get a good view of the situation. Some of them took pity on me when they saw the water running into the top of my boots. They took me into a boat, and I was able to see both sides of the river, from the boat.
The spirit of the people has been wonderful. On the morning I arrived back I saw the St. Boniface radio station which had been moved to the top of a house, and that station was carrying on as usual. The same thing can be said of the different people who make up the community. There was no work for them to do down town, because the basements were flooded, and the power was cut off. They immediately got out on the dikes. Sometimes my face was red when I was seen without a shovel in my hand or carrying a sandbag, particularly when I saw people older than I shovelling sand and carrying sandbags.
It is greatly to the credit of the people of Winnipeg and Manitoba that they rallied so completely to this situation. I am proud to belong to Winnipeg; I am proud of its people.
I am sure every member from Manitoba will put political difference aside to see that Manitoba gets a square deal. I am most serious when I say that I cannot describe the condition as I would like to. It was deplorable; no doubt some hon. members will pass through Winnipeg and will be able to see it for themselves.
I said before that I want to thank the Red Cross. I repeat that desire. May 1 also thank the Salvation Army, and the emergency centres established in Winnipeg. Among the volunteers who came along to do work were men who had never had shovels in their hands, men who went away after a few hours of work with blisters on their hands. These are the things for which we are thankful.
I am not going to enter into this dispute about who is to blame; that is water over the dam. The people of Manitoba will lay the

blame where it should be. Mistakes have been made, but my getting into the dispute would only aggravate matters. I want to see the dominion government do what is right; let us look to ourselves. I say this government should send $10 million to Winnipeg right away.


James Arthur Ross: Maybe they will not take it.


William Scottie Bryce: Because the city of Winnipeg is building up a debt at the bank. If the money is to be paid to the provincial government, then make an interim payment now, and let them get going. Do not hold it up.
I had the pleasure of meeting Mayor Coulter and Mayor MacLean, and I learned that the amount of money they have to spend each day is very great. They have nothing to back it up, but they must have the money to keep going. I believe in the sincerity of the Prime Minister and I believe the premier of Manitoba means well. That being so, let us give the people of Winnipeg something to work with, instead of having them run up an interest bill at the banks. The government has said, "We will stand by you." Yet, when it comes to the final say-so, the municipalities and the city of Winnipeg will have to foot the bill and pay the interest. Even now they have a large overdraft. The deputy mayor of Winnipeg told me that they have four hundred trucks operating at $2 an hour. That has been going on for three weeks. No municipality or town can stand that drain on its resources.
Call it a token payment or an interim payment, call it whatever you like, but send them some money. Send them a few million dollars so that they may save themselves this bill of interest which is gathering at the banks. They should have prompt and proper treatment coming to them. The Prime Minister has said he will help; then, help now, and do not wait until it is too late.



SEX COMICS AND SALACIOUS LITERATURE

Mr. W. D. Wylie (Medicine Hat):: Mr. Speaker, before you leave the chair I have a matter I should like to discuss at this time. Possibly I could have dealt with this subject either in the debate on the address in reply, or in the budget debate. Perhaps I could have waited until the estimates of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) were before the house. However I feel this is an important matter, and I make no apology for discussing it now.
My subject is that of sex comics and passionate literature. It will be recalled that during the last session of parliament we passed Bill No. 10, to amend the Criminal Code, in connection with the portrayal of

crime. That act, sponsored by the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton), has done a wonderful job, and I am sure many citizens feel that it has been worth while.
However certain publishers in Canada have found a loophole, with the result that today they are bringing out something that is perhaps worse than some of the crime comics. Bill No. 10, as I see it, and as many others see it, did not go far enough. Certain publishers in Toronto and Montreal have taken advantage of the situation and are flooding the newsstands with literature not fit to appear on any newsstand.


James Ross Fulton: It is not literature.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I believe I should place on
record the names of some of the publishers who are publishing this literature. The ones I have before me all publish in Toronto. I have always been told that Toronto was a good city, and I have heard it described as "Toronto the good". No wonder it is styled as "Toronto the good', because they must ship all the bad out of it.
Some of this trash bears on it three initials. One might see the initials S.D.D., which refers to Superior Distributors located at 21 Wellington Street East, Toronto. Another is C.D.L., Colonial Distributors Limited, located at 2001 Eglinton Avenue East, Toronto. Then there is Magazine Distributors and Sales Limited, 149 Church street, Toronto. I am sure if one of our late members were here today and heard mention of Church street he would get up and say that he had nothing to do with that company. Those are some of the publishers.
Every newsstand in this country is being flooded with trash published by these companies, which have a monopoly on the printing of sex comics and obscene literature. They tell the distributors in the small centres that they must put these books on their newsstands or they will lose their licences. I should like to read an article that appeared in the Medicine Hat News of Wednesdayj February 15 of this year, under the heading of "Watson to ban shack-up girlies." It reads:
Local news dealer takes own action to clear stands of salacious literature published ini Toronto.
The most erotic, two-bit pocket editions about the "shack-up girl" and the "reckless maiden" in the "furnished room" in the flood of licentious literature now sweeping Canada will disappear from local newsstands on Saturday. Oscar Watson, proprietor of'Watson's news agency, the principal magazine distributor of Medicine Hat, announced today he has cancelled contracts with Crow library and Newsstand library publishers of Toronto for this type of "torrid tales of turbulent passion."
I admire what Mr. Watson has done in that respect. The trouble is that under the present act the publishers in Toronto and 55946-179
Sex Comics and Salacious Literature Montreal are allowed to publish this junk which is sent out to the distributors in the cities and small towns across the country who are expected to decide what should be placed on the newsstands. That is entirely wrong. The responsibility should be placed upon the publishers. I am not alone in this and I intend to read letters or excerpts from letters I have received from various organizations across this country. The first letter I should like to read is from the Local Council of Women in Medicine Hat. It is dated February 21, 1950 and reads:
Dear sir:
The Local Council of Women of Medicine Hat would like you to know that they strongly approve of the stand you have taken against the salacious literature that is appearing on our newsstands today.
We wish you every success in getting an amendment to Bill No. 10 to cover this literature.
Yours truly,
Mrs. Marjorie Copp, Corresponding Secretary for L.C.W.
Another letter is from Macleod, Alberta, dated February 17, 1950, and reading:
Mr. W. D. Wylie,
Medicine Hat, Alta.
Sir:
Your campaign to curb the sale of cheap trashy literature is in my opinion highly commendable. I wish you every success in your endeavour in this matter.
Olive R. Killoran
The next one is from New Brunswick and this should interest my hon. friend from Saint John. It is from the Catholic Women's League of Canada, dated March 10, 1950, and reads:
Dear Mr. Wylie:
Through an editorial in our paper printed from the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, I note your efforts in regard to the banning of crime comics and salacious literature. On behalf of the Catholic Women's League of Canada of the diocese of Edmundston, I wish to express to you our sincere appreciation of your work in this matter. We realize that the law recently passed against crime comics, et cetera, is by no means adequate, but we feel sure that if we continue to work on the matter we can accomplish a great deal of good. Be assured that we wish you every success in the move you are making, and that, in this matter, you have our complete co-operation.
Sincerely yours,
Mrs. Frank J. Toner,
President, Edmundston Diocesan Council, C.W.L.
Then I have a letter from Arthur L. Davis of Moose Jaw, but as it is rather lengthy I shall not read it. The next item I should like to place on the record is a copy of a newscast which was sent over station CKY, at 8 p.m., February 16, 1950. It reads:
The possibility that the federal government will be asked to investigate the distribution of "lurid"

Sex Comics and Salacious Literature literature at this session, indicated today that "clean-up" legislation would have a considerable effect on local sales.
Social Credit member of parliament, W. D. Wylie, promised recently that he would ask parliament to take immediate action on the sales of what he termed "filthy sex magazines." His contention was that while last year's bill which banned crime comics in Canada was praiseworthy, Canada's newsstands still carried a tremendous amount of indecent literature. He indicated that while children have been denied their diet of cops and robbers, they don't have to go hungry if they want top-flight-if sexy-excitement.
A group of CKY reporters made a survey of Winnipeg newsstands today, and their reports showed that while gangsterism in print has disappeared, what has taken its place is much worse. For every decent or "family" magazine, the survey showed, there appear to be two others which are crammed with lewdness and sensationalism. The "come-on" is usually an alluring title or photograph, and the publications are available to anyone, including children.
Here are some of the titles and stories available almost anywhere in Winnipeg to young children as well as adults. Are Canadian women sex starved? Why European Women are the Sexiest; Smouldering Secrets of Sultry Sirens; Lover's Triangle; A Daring Expose of How a Woman Snares a Man; Sex Comes to Tarzan; Marriage in a Chemise; Pre-Wedding Madness; I Had to Marry; Wicked: She Was Easy With her Kisses and Free with her Charms; I was Hungry for Love; Striptease Goes West; What Sells You-Sex or Facts; Long Lost Passion; My Scandalous Affair; My Husband's Infatuation; and Vice in Los Angeles.
It was noted that these magazines were exposed prominently on newsstands, and in some cases purchasers had difficulty in concealing their embarrassment. The provincial government department under whose authority these matters are handled says there have been no complaints, and therefore no action is contemplated toward cleaning out newsstands. However, church and youth groups in eastern Canada have gone on record as condemning the magazines, and challenge the government to pass a law similar to the one which last year made the sale of crime comics illegal. Observers stated that if and when such a law is passed it would leave newsstands a little bare but clean.
This newscast was broadcast over CKY, Winnipeg, and that is what they found on the newsstands in that city. I want to refer to one paper in western Canada which is very much worried about the censorship of sex comics and passion literature, the Calgary Herald. This newspaper went all out in an editorial on February 15, 1950, against myself and expressed alarm over the censorship of crime comics, sex comics and passion literature. I must admit this same paper supported the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. Fulton) when Bill 10 was introduced in the house. I am not going to read all of the editorial because most of it is so silly that it does not even make sense. However, I am going to read what they say in the last two paragraphs.


An hon. Member:: Read it all.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: You would not enjoy it if I did, and you might consider where it comes from. The last two paragraphs read as follows:
If Canada as a nation has any sense of morality at all and if Mr. Wylie's private book collection is as dangerous as he says it is, then it may be assumed that moral pressure will cause these books to be withdrawn. In the meantime, we suggest that Mr. Wylie devote his attention to the more important matters with which the Canadian parliament would do well to concern itself.
The Calgary Herald surely must realize, Mr. Speaker, that Canada's most valuable asset is the youth of the country. Their good citizenship depends entirely on the bringing up they have in their own homes, and the education they receive in the early days of their youth. For a paper such as the Calgary Herald to publish such an editorial certainly demonstrates their ignorance. I am greatly surprised at their doing so. The Medicine Hat News in an editorial on Monday, February 13, 1950, showed the need for sex comics control. I want to read the editorial because I believe it is a good one and should cause many members of the house to think as I do. It reads:
The need for governmental action to dam the flood of "passion" literature now evident on the shelves of newsstand retailers must be apparent to every thinking adult. It is a wicked business conducted by a few men who are profiting by this mental seduction of youth. It is a deliberate move to compensate for the loss of the crime comic book trade and it replaces one evil with another, an even more serious threat to the moral fabric of this nation.
It is a flouting of the good intentions of Bill 10, designed at the last sitting of the Canadian parliament, and the only way in which it can be stopped is an attack on the fountainhead. The Toronto and Montreal publishing cartel which is trafficking in this epidemic of salacious literature is the group against which restraining legislation should be aimed, not the wholesalers, distributors and retailers who are compelled to handle the filth. In order to obtain the slicks and standard periodicals for distribution dealers are told to take a certain quota of the romance pulps and "comics."
That is the editorial which appeared in the Medicine Hat News, and I believe it is worth while. I am going to read a few titles of books that have appeared on newsstands in Medicine Hat and which were removed by Mr. Oscar Watson, the distributor of this literature in Medicine Hat. One is "Eager is the Flesh", a tale of violent men and surging passions. The trouble is that in every case the cover is the most prominent part of the book; it always shows a picture of a nice looking girl to attract everyone's attention. Another one is "WeekEnd Girl", an intimate story of reckless love. Then there is "Reckless Maiden"; her love was a mad obsession. Another one shows a picture of a nude girl through a window and its title is "Furnished Room". The minute

you look at the cover you think the book will be a spicy one and that you had better buy it and read it.


Mr. Fraser:: She should have pulled down the blind.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: They have no intention of pulling down the blind. I have another one showing a girl in the nude, and its title is "Shack-up Girl".


Mr. Cote (Malapedia-Malane):: What does it mean.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: You should know. I hope the hon. member does not expect me to explain it to him. These 25-cent novels are brought out in such a way that the cover looks good. They are printed on the cheapest paper that can be obtained.


An hon. Member:: It looks bad to me.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: These are 25-cent pocket editions of trash. Then they brought out some more in the comic book style: "Women in Love. Here is my sin. My heartbreak, plus other real love secrets." The picture shows a very nice girl. Here is another: "My life. Her kisses were tainted. I hated my home, plus other true to life stories." These are what are taking the place of crime comics, and they are much worse. "Miss Beverley Hills." "Secret loves. Thrilling tales of intimate romances. I had two loves." "First romance. True love stories." Then I assume this one is very good: "Saddle romances. Western love." Here is another one: "Flaming love." I have many more here that I can let hon. members have to read, if they wish.
Today all these love stories I have shown you are on the newsstands. Then on the back of some appears an advertisement, telling you that you can send to the Herald Publishing Company, 2382 Dundas Street West, Toronto-you will notice I am giving the address in case any hon. member wants to take it down-and get twenty-four of these books for $1. Bargain prices! These other books are not on the newsstands, but you can get them by sending to Toronto. When I came down here I wasted a dollar sending for twenty-four more of these books. I really never expected to get them, but when they came I found them to be the same as those selling for 10 cents on the newsstands. Apparently they have more trash they cannot get rid of, so they try to fool you by offering a bargain. I may as well put a few of these titles on Hansard as well. The first is "Nellie the nurse." Then "Teen-age diary secrets," published by Superior Publishers Limited, Toronto. "Aggie Mack," "Dogpatch," "Horse
Sex Comics and Salacious Literature Feathers," "Black diamond," "Venus." There are fifteen or sixteen more, but I do not think it worth while to read them all.
I believe something should be done to prevent this type of literature going out across Canada. I do not think it should be left entirely to the distributors in each town or city to look through all this trash before it appears on the newsstands. Furthermore I believe anyone publishing this sort of thing should be-one hon. member says "shot" and another says "prosecuted"; perhaps "prosecuted" is the best word. People across the country are up in arms about this sort of thing. The only way we can get action is through the House of Commons, as we did with Bill No. 10 last year, which did away with crime comics. Let us do away with these sex comics disguised as literature, which are just as bad if not worse.
I hope the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) will see his way clear to do something in this matter, and not leave it entirely to the provincial authorities. After all, this trash is published in Toronto and shipped to every province in Canada. No doubt complaints have been made; no doubt the minister has received many complaints with respect to this literature. It should be stopped at the source, where it is published. I am sure the minister would have the support of hundreds of organizations throughout this country, as well as every member of the House of Commons.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, the grievance I am going to bring before the house concerns the Post Office Department-


Mr. Knight:: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) would permit me to continue the discussion initiated by the hon. member for Medicine Hat (Mr. Wylie). I shall take only two minutes, if that. Of course it is for the hon. member to say.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not expect to be long-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: If the
hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight) wishes to speak on the subject introduced by the hon. member for Medicine Hat he must do so now, unless the hon. member for Eglinton intends to speak on sex comics as well.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I do not wish to speak on that subject.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: If not, no other hon. member can go back to that subject.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Mr. Speaker, there is one phase of the subject introduced by the hon. member for Medicine Hat, in regard
5594&-1791

Sex Comics and Salacious Literature to this business of the debasement of womanhood, to which I want to draw the attention of the house and the people of this country; that is, the willingness of certain people in business and certain business institutions to sell anything to anybody, irrespective of the harm that may be done, as long as it is within the law and there is profit in it for them. Thus it is that we must have laws in this country to keep people from selling narcotics and other kinds of dope to high school pupils, or cigarettes and liquor to children.
There is one aspect which I should like to draw to your attention with respect to what I call this debasement of womanhood. This is the stuff we have been hearing about, which is purported to be the glorification of womanhood, the glorification of the female body and all that sort of thing. Let me point out to you, sir, that it is not the glorification of womanhood as motherhood that we get. It is not the idea contained in that old song "Mother Machree", which you may remember:
I love the dear silver that shines in her hair,
And the brow that's all furrowed and wrinkled
with care.
That is not the sort of thing we get in these articles. It is the glorification of another type of womanhood, and that is responsible for the creation of false ideas, and wrong human values.
I should like to say that one of the greatest causes of this very type of trash being produced, about which the hon. member has told us, is the low debasement to which the publications known as the "slick" magazines have descended in the matter of their advertising. The United States publications are mostly guilty in that respect, but I blush with shame at some of our own magazines. One or two of them boast about being national publications. I believe this thing is our fault, because we put up with it in those magazines. I might sum it up in this way. The habitual use of the female human body as a means of promoting the sale of anything from gas engines to canned peas is an abomination, and I think it should be eliminated. 1 do not know how. I do not know to what extent legislation will effect this, because there are ways of getting around legislation. The liquor interests are not supposed to use our magazines for advertising, but what do you see? You see that a brewery is promoting the breeding of good race horses, or a distillery is doing something else for the fine young boys and girls of Canada or promoting some worthy object. I had a letter this morning from some cigarette outfit stating that they are trying to keep down fires in Canada. You and I know that the papers on their cigarettes are saturated with saltpetre, or some other chemical and if you light a cigarette, as one often sees a public

speaker do, even though he does not know it is there, it is finished long before he has completed his speech. A speaker may even lay down his cigarette, but it keeps on burning. Any part of a cigarette discarded in the woods is a fire hazard if conditions are right. A lot of our advertising is untruthful, insincere and immoral. Is it any wonder that it creates in the minds of the young false values and wrong ideas, and makes them susceptible to the kind of lurid trash the hon. member for Medicine Hat has just described?



POST OFFICE


Donald Methuen Fleming: Mr. Speaker, yesterday's Globe and Mail carries on the first page an article under this caption, "Denied Use of Mails: Leaside Lions under ban for Conducting Raffle". The article is brief and I shall read it:
Postal authorities have denied the Leaside Lions club and a member, Jack Wyler, use of the mails as the result of a number of tickets for a raffle being sent to club members by mail.
Club president William Priestly said last night the ban was to be in effect until after the raffle has been held on June 6 at the annual Lions carnival. The prize is a car.
Mr. Wyler was chairman of the raffle committee, Mr. Priestly said. The tickets were being distributed by mail to club members for sale to the public, he explained.
"All of Mr. Wyler's personal mail including his pay cheques have been withheld from delivery to his home," said Mr. Priestly. Semi-monthly bulletins of the Leaside Lions club have had to be delivered by hand.
Mr. Priestly said the club received notification of the ban on the use of the mail service in a letter from a district postal inspector. The ban has been in effect for three weeks.
He said the club had signified in writing to the post office that no further infractions of regulations would occur.
After the discussion that has been held in this house in recent weeks in regard to the arbitrary banning by the postal authorities of the use of the mails to certain citizens, I am sure that this latest episode will be viewed by members with real concern. I hope so.
Let me explain, sir, the purpose of the Lions club is carrying on this raffle. The Lions club is doing welfare work, and the purpose of raising money at this fair, by this raffle and other means, is to provide funds for carrying on welfare work, including aid to Winnipeg; that is one of the purposes for which this particular raffle was being conducted. The persons concerned are all thoroughly reputable citizens. Not one of them is getting a cent out of it for himself. The organization is a highly respected organization, and is getting nothing out of the raffle for the benefit of the members. This represents a part of their effort to contribute to worthy welfare objects. The tickets which

were going in the mail, and which led to this arbitrary and high-handed action on the part of the post office authorities, were not going to the public. They were going from the chairman of the particular committee in charge of the raffle to the club members. I think, sir, in the face of this action, the members of the house will realize that this arbitrary and abusive power on the part of the postal authorities has gotten to the point where a stop must be put to it. If the postal authorities are going to start interfering with organizations of this type, where there can be no question whatever of an attempt to defraud the public, then the House of Commons should certainly put its foot down, and put it down soon.
What is the next step in the situation, sir? Today's Globe and Mail carries this further information in an article which says:
Both the club and a member, Jack M. Wieler, were placed on the denied mail list by the post office after it was discovered the club had been sending raffle tickets through the mail to members for distribution. Mr. Wieler is chairman of a club committee which is raffling a motor car.
Mr. Priestly estimated that 1,500 raffle tickets were sent out through the mail by the club. "The executive did not know that it was an illegal act," he said.
Last night members of the Lions club were out selling tickets for the raffle on Bayview avenue. On Saturday members will again conduct street sales and the money collected that day will be donated to the Winnipeg flood fund.
The raffle will be held June 10 at the annual club carnival. Postal officials in Ottawa have stated the ban would not be lifted until either the raffle is held or cancelled.
Members of the club have described the action of the post office as unfair and ridiculous. Mayor G. T. Manes said: "I can't understand why the government would clamp down on a charitable organization." The proceeds of the raffle, it was stated, will go to welfare work only.
Mr. Manes is a past president of the Leaside Lions. The town clerk, Richard V. Burgess, also a club member, commented that if service clubs were going to be stepped on like that it would stop all charitable activities.
But, sir, the action on the part of the postal authorities has not been confined to the club's mail. It has been extended to Mr. Wieler's personal mail.


James Garfield Gardiner: Is my hon. friend suggesting that just because a thing is done for a charitable institution that should excuse its being done, even though the law says it is illegal?


Donald Methuen Fleming: If the Minister of Agriculture will be patient for a moment, he will hear what I have to say about the clear distinction in the law between the cases that were described by the Postmaster General and these cases. In my submission there is no authority for the post office people to do what they have done here. The action was not confined to the mails of the club.
Postal Service


James Garfield Gardiner: Six o'clock.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thought hon. members wanted to dispose of this motion now-


An hon. Member:: We have wasted three days now; we might as well use another day.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I shall try to be brief about it. The article in the Globe and Mail states:
All Mr. Wieler's personal mail including his pay cheques are returned to the dead letter office.
The executive of the club has assured the post office in writing that no further infractions of regulations will take place.
Chief constable Russell Spanton said the Leaside police department had sanctioned the draw each year. "It is an understood matter," the chief said.
A draw is an illegal lottery if the prizes offered individually exceed $50, Inspector Albert Lee, head of the Toronto police morality squad, said yesterday.
The Minister of Agriculture has raised a point. He said: If this is illegal, how can you draw-


Mr. Mitchell:: I rise to a point of order. It is now three minutes after six. All during this debate this afternoon the members of the other place have been discussing reform of the House of Commons. After listening to some of the drivel this afternoon, I do not object to it.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: Unless the hon. member has unanimous consent he cannot continue.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I thought I was co-operating with the government in trying to abbreviate my remarks and bring them to a conclusion today.


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: May I intervene? I have been waiting for two days to try to get two departments in. I have listened to many speeches, good ones and bad ones. This one is no worse than some of the others. If the hon. member can conclude in two minutes he should be permitted to go on. I should like to try to get these departments in. I am appealing to the house. I have been waiting four months to try to get some departments in.


Donald Methuen Fleming: The words of the minister are most encouraging. I tried to start last night and to be very brief about it, and I tried to get on earlier today and to be very brief about it.
Sir, the question I raise is whether the postal authorities can distinguish between one kind of illegal act and another. The Post Office Act draws a clear distinction between the different kinds of illegal acts. The language of section 7 (d) reads in this way. The Postmaster General has certain powers in these words:
. . . and for marking on the covering of letters, circulars or other mailable matter suspected to concern

Postal Service
illegal lotteries, so-called gift concerts, or other illegal enterprises of like character, offering prizes, or concerning schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences,' whether such letters, circulars or other mailable matter are addressed to or received by mail from places within or without Canada . . .
It may be one thing to suspect brokers of intention to defraud; but there is not the slightest evidence in this case, nor can there be the slightest suspicion, that those to whom the use of the mails has been banned here had any intention whatever of deceiving or defrauding the public. Regulation 204, passed under that act, is in the same language. The reference to illegal lotteries is confined, sir, to those in the language used, "concerning schemes devised or intended to deceive or defraud the public, for the purpose of obtaining money under false pretences." There can be no suggestion whatsoever that there was anything of that kind involved here. There are courts to deal with illegal lotteries. The police and the courts in the Toronto area and in Leaside are quite competent to deal with this matter without having arbitrary intervention on the part of the postal authorities in an arbitrary abuse of power. I say this sort of thing must stop.
Motion (Mr. Fournier, Hull) agreed to, and the house went into committee, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR

[Stage Direction]
150. Departmental administration, $540,260.
Item stands.
LEGISLATION	'
172. General administration, $327,378.
Item stands.
Progress reported.

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we will take up Bill No. 153, to amend the Aeronautics Act. Then we will go into committee of supply and take up the estimates of the Department of Transport. We will take up the estimates of the Department of Veterans Affairs if we conclude transport.


Mr. Green:: Only the one bill?


Alphonse Fournier: One bill.


[Stage Direction]
It being six minutes past six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, May 25, 1950