1950-05-31

HON. LIAQUAT ALI KHAN ADDRESS TO MEMBERS OF THE SENATE AND OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS TO BE PRINTED IN HOUSE OF COMMONS DEBATES

Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew):
That the address of the Honourable Liaguat All Khan, Prime Minister of Pakistan, delivered before the members of the Senate and of the House of Commons of Canada in the chamber of the House of Commons on May 31, 1960, together with introductory and related speeches, be included in the House of Commons Debates and form part of the permanent records of this parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
(For text of address of Prime Minister of Pakistan, with speeches of welcome and thanks, see Appendix, pages 3041-45.)

Mr. Speaker:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, May 31, 1950
Sir:
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Thibaudeau Rinfret, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on Thursday, the 1st June, at 5.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
J. F. Delaute
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General



DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT


[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Hodgson:: How many officials or employees of the Polymer plant at Sarnia, Ontario, receive $6,000 or more per year, and what are their names and official positions?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: It will be noted that this question really consists of two parts. The first part asks how many officials or employees of the Polymer plant at Sarnia, Ontario, receive $6,000 or more per year, and the second part asks for the names and official positions. The answer to the first part is eighteen. In connection with the second part, may I say that it has never been the practice to disclose names and positions. The reason is one that I think will be appreciated by all hon. members. This plant is a highly competitive manufacturing plant, and to give details of the names and official positions of these employees would be unfair. I am sure it is something that hon. members would not wish to have done. If there is any other information I can give that the hon. member would like to have, I shall be glad to give it.



POTATOES-IMPORTS FROM UNITED STATES

Mr. Hatfield:: What quantity of American potatoes was imported into Canada during the' year 1949, and also during January, February, March and April of 1950?


George James McIlraith: Potatoes, Potatoes, other than seed	seed
Cwt.	Cwt.
Calendar year 1949	
Month of January, 1950. Month of February, 1950 Month of March, 1950.. Month of April, 1950...
1,956	324,906
..	10,806
. .	35,809
1,850	53,720
not yet	available


Mr. W. G. Weir (Poriage-Neepawa) moved:: That the name of Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce) be substituted for that of Mr. Power, and that the name of Mr. MacDougall be substituted for that of Mr. Douglas, on the special committee on the Dominion Elections Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. Catherwood:: 1.	How many American firms were operating subsidiaries in Canada in 1948 and 1949?
2.	How many English firms were operating subsidiaries in Canada in 1948 and 1949?

Questions


George James McIlraith: The following figures cover firms with investment of $10,000 and over, which are controlled by companies outside of Canada:
1.	1948-2,172 firms (preliminary); 1949- 2,227 firms (estimate).
2.	1948-475 firms (preliminary); 1949- 485 firms (estimate).



PURCHASE OF GOVERNMENT LAND AT KIRKFIELD PARK, MAN.

Mr. Bryce:: 1.	On what date did Mr. Robert Mclnnes make an offer to purchase government land at Kirkfield Park, Manitoba?
2.	Was his offer accepted by the department? It so, on, what date?
1.
Elgin county
Cattle tested	
Reactors found	
Percentage	
Carcasses condemned	
Condemnation, compensation paid
Oxford county
Cattle tested	
Reactors found	
Percentage	
Carcasses condemned	
Condemnation compensation paid


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1.	November 3, 1949.
2.	Yes. November 7, 1949.



COMPENSATION FOR T.B. REACTORS

Mr. Coyle:: 1.	What number of cattle were condemned to the tank in the recent tubercular tests In each of the counties of Elgin and Oxford, for the years 1947, 1948, 1949 and to date, 1950?
2.	How many dollars have been paid to Elgin county farmers for condemned cattle since January 1, 1950?
3.	How many dollars have been paid to Oxford county farmers for condemned cattle since January 1, 1950?


Mr. McCubbin:: 1947-48	1948-49	1949-50	to May 8Nil	21	32,116	2,071Nil	2	3,812	62Nil	9-5%	12-0%	2-1%, Nil	2	436	8Nil	$330.46	$59,629.83	$1,140.941950-511947-48 1948-49	1949-50	to May 815,807	35,277	23,763	1,4132,855	7,677	5,662	5818-	0% 21-	8% 23-	8% 4-1%300	999	750	10$32,012.:	25 $156,625	.33 $106,431.64 $900.59	2.	Elgin county, $15,987.93 (136 condemned).3.	Oxford county, $3,553.48 (31 condemned).



PURCHASES OF CANADIAN LUMBER BY UNITED STATES

Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	Has the Canadian Commercial Corporation within the last month been negotiating or making purchases of lumber from the various mills on behalf of the government of the United States?
2.	If so, what has been the total amount of lumber purchased to date?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1.	The Canadian Commercial Corporation has received from the United States government several invitations to obtain quotations for various species of lumber. These inquiries were referred to the Department of Trade and Commerce, which endeavoured to obtain quotations. One quotation only was received, covering an alternative to the supplies required, and was not acceptable to the United States authorities.
2.	Nil.



SOLDIER SETTLEMENT


Mr. While (Haslings-Pelerborough):: With reference to page 322 of the estimates for 1950-51, Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act, item "Legal fees $100,000":
1.	What are the names and addresses of the firms or individuals who received payment under this item?
2.	What amount did each firm or individual receive?
3.	What was the nature of the work or services rendered by each firm or individual?



PENSION COMMISSION


George Stanley White: With reference to page 319 of the estimates for 1950-51, Canadian pension commission administration, item "Professional and special services, $100,000":
1. What are the names and addresses of the persons who received payment under this item?
2.	What amount was paid each individual?
3.	What was the nature of the service rendered by each individual?


Mr. Gregg:: Mr. Speaker, it will be noted
that with reference to these two questions the estimates for 1950-51 are mentioned. As these estimates have not been passed, of course the money has not been spent. I wonder whether the hon. member would care to

reframe his questions, or perhaps take them up when my estimates are before the committee of supply.


Mr. Speaker:: Is that agreeable?


George Stanley White: I was
speaking to the parliamentary assistant to the minister (Mr. Mutch), and I will reword the questions.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



UNEMPLOYMENT


Mr. Winkler:: 1.	By years from 1939 to 1949, how many females in Canada were without work and seeking employment?
2.	From 1947 to 1950, how many females among displaced persons were employed as domestic servants?
3.	By census years or other available figures since, and including 1931, what was the relation of female domestic servants to the total population of Canada?


Mr. Cole (Verdun-La Salle):: 1. From 1939-1942 no data are available on the number of women unemployed and seeking work in Canada.
From 1943-1945, when most women seeking employment were required to register at national selective service offices, the following numbers were reported as seeking work:
June 1,	1943	
29,000June 1,	1944	
24,000June 1,	1945	
24,000
From 1946-1949 the number of women without jobs and seeking employment, as estimated on the basis of a sample labour force survey, was as follows:
June 1,	1946	
18,000June 1,	1947	
16,000June 1,	1948	
18,000June 1,	1949	
16,000
2. Statistics are not available to provide a direct answer to this question. The following table, however, shows the number of female displaced persons entering Canada for domestic service employment under the group movement plan of the federal government:
1947	  700
1948	  6,500
1949	  2,500
1950	(to April 30)	 300
3.	Number of women employed in domestic service!:
June	1,	1931	
146,000June	1,	1941	
178,000June	1,	1946	
67,000June	1,	1947	
53,000June	1,	1948	
74,000June	1,	1949ft	
75,000
Questions
Total population of Canada:
June 1,	1931	
10,363,200June 1,	1941	
11,489,700June 1,	1946	
12,283,000June 1,	1947	
12,558,000June 1,	1948	
12,859,000June 1,	1949ft	
13,177,000
Per cent of population employed in domestic service:
June 1,	1931	
1-4June 1,	1941	
1-5June 1,	1946	
0-5June 1,	1947	
0-4June 1,	1948	
0-6June 1,	1949ft	
0-6
t Figures for 1931 and 1941 show the number of women who were gainfully occupied in domestic service, according to the decennial census at that date. In the census a person is classified according to his usual c*r customary activity during the past year. Figures for 1946 to 1949 are based on a sample labour force survey which classifies persons according to the specific work in which they are engaged during the survey week.
ft Excluding Newfoundland.



TRENTON, ONT., AIRPORT  CONTRACT FOB SUPPLIES

Mr. While (Haslings-Pelerborough):: 1.	What firms or individuals received contracts for supplying gas, oil, grease, coal, fuel oil, bread, meat and milk for the R.C.A.F. airport at Trenton, Ontario, in each of the years 1948, 1949 and 1950?
2.	Were tenders called for these contracts?
3.	What are the names and addresses of the firms or individuals who submitted tenders?
4.	What was the contract price for each of the commodities mentioned in paragraph one above?


George James McIlraith: Mr. Speaker, I have consulted officials of the Canadian Commercial Corporation with regard to the information asked for in this question. To get the information requested would take approximately three months, and the cost would be very heavy. I wonder if the hon. member would consent to drop the question. If I can find out just what point he is seeking to get at, we can perhaps frame a question that will elicit the information without involving such a heavy expenditure of time and money.


George Stanley White: I will not agree to dropping the question. I rather doubt that it would take three months, but I will speak to the parliamentary assistant. I ask that the question stand.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.



INCURABLES

Mr. Fair:: 1. What number of incurables reside in each province?

Motions for Papers
2. How many of those are dependent upon their families for support?


Mr. Martin.:: No statistics are available. In view of that I am sure the hon. member will agree to drop the question.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



BURLIN GTON, ONT., PUBLIC BUILDING   ALTERATIONS OR EXTENSIONS

Mr. Lennard:: 1.	Has a contract been let for alterations or extensions to the federal building at Burlington, Ontario?
2.	If so, who got the contract, and at what price?
3.	If not, what is the reason for the delay?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: Public tenders for the construction of an addition and alterations to the public building at Burlington, Ontario, are now being invited, and will be received until Thursday June 8, 1950.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


NAVAL SERVICE


Mr. Pearkes:: 1.	What firms successfully tendered, during the years 1948 and 1949, for the supply of coal and/or oil for ships and shore establishments of the Royal Canadian Navy?
2.	What was the quantity of coal or fuel supplied, and the amount of each contract?


George James McIlraith: Return tabled.



PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS


Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Were two recommendations concerning public works projects received and considered by the Department of Resources and Development?
2.	If so, from what precise committee was each of these recommendations received?
3.	What was the result of the consideration given to each of these recommendations?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. Diefenbaker:: For a copy of all correspondence since the 15th day of January, 1948, and to date, between the international joint commission and the government of Canada relative to suggestions and recommendations as to means or methods or public works to be undertaken to prevent a repetition of the flood on the Red river of 1948.


Mr. Pearson:: I understand that the papers covered by this motion were in fact tabled on May 25 by my colleague the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton).


John George Diefenbaker: As I remember it, the only reference then made was that there had been no report. This motion involves an order for all correspondence in reference to the matter, including reports.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I am informed that the correspondence in question was in fact tabled, as noted in Votes and Proceedings of Thursday, May 25. Possibly I could have a word about it with my hon. friend, to see if in fact the tabling I have mentioned covers what he has in mind.


Mr. Speaker:: Stand.



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION


Mr. Thatcher:: For a return showing the names and addresses of all persons employed under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1949, together with wages, allowances, and travelling expenses received by each employee during that year.


Mr. Gardiner:: Mr. Speaker, the last time this motion was up I asked to have it stand because the hon. member was not here. I have found since that the same information was asked for by the hon. member for Assini-boia (Mr. Argue) on December 3 last and was brought down on March 14. It would cost about $500 to repeat the information, and all the hon. member needs to do is to look at the other record. I am sure the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Thatcher), of all members of the house, would not wish that I increase the costs of information in my department.


Mr. Coldwell:: I think all members sometimes make an error by oversight. I will draw this to the attention of the hon. member.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.



FLOOD CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Fernand Viau (St. Boniface):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Resources and Development. Have any arrangements been completed to repair and clean as early as possible all houses owned and operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, situated in the flooded area east of the Seine river, all rented by veterans, and within the limits of the city of St. Boniface?


Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Resources and Development):: All such houses owned and operated by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation will be restored to good condition at the earliest possible day.

Inquiries of the Ministry CZECHOSLOVAKIA



FISHERIES


[Stage Direction]
1949 STOCKS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. F. Higgins (St. John's East):: I should like to direct a question to the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Fisheries arising out of a press release of last Friday relative to Newfoundland fisheries. Has any decision been arrived at regarding the disposition of the surplus of the 1949 catch of Newfoundland salt codfish? Has any decision been made with respect to price support for the 1950 catch?


Mr. J. W. MacNaughl (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries):: The question of the hon. member for St. John's East is [DOT]divided into two parts. The first part is whether any decision has been arrived at regarding the disposition of the surplus of the 1949 catch of Newfoundland salt codfish. I should like to inform the house that the disposition of the unsold stocks of salted codfish produced in 1949, and currently held in parts of the maritimes and Newfoundland, was discussed last week in Ottawa with representatives of the salt codfish industry from the maritime provinces, Newfoundland, and Quebec. No decision on disposition could be made with the insufficiency of available data. To provide this information the Department of Fisheries has this week dispatched investigators to Newfoundland to elicit information on the stocks held, the costs, and returns made on the various varieties of 1949 salted fish. Such information is necessary before the department can consider any recommendation to the government.
The second part of the question is whether any decision has been made with respect to price support for the 1950 catch. On May 9 the hon. member for St. John's East put substantially the same question to me, and the answer then given still represents the action the prices support board will be prepared to take if conditions should so require.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I should like to ask the parliamentary assistant a supplementary question. Can he tell me the amount of the 1949 catch of codfish still held?


John Watson MacNaught: I cannot give the amount with any degree of accuracy. There seems to be some confusion in the minds of those connected with the fishing industry in Newfoundland as to the total amount still held. Some of the fish are held by fishermen, some by merchants, and there is some for which contracts are held; so the whole picture is quite confused.


Gordon Francis Higgins: But it is a considerable
amount?


John Watson MacNaught: It is a considerable amount.



PARTICIPATION IN INTERNATIONAL TRADE FAIR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of ihe Opposition):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, of which I have not had an opportunity to give him notice. There has just come to my attention an extremely well-illustrated circular issued by the republic of Czechoslovakia which is being distributed at the Canadian international trade fair, from space towards the cost of which the people of Canada make a substantial contribution. In view of the fact that the publication contains a good deal of propaganda for a communist state, will the Minister of Trade and Commerce indicate whether we have any similarly advantageous arrangement in Prague or any other city in Czechoslovakia?


Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I believe this is the third year that the republic of Czechoslovakia has been an exhibitor at the Canadian international trade fair. It is unusual for exhibitors to put out advertising matter. I have not seen the particular advertising matter to which reference has been made, but I shall have it examined. If there is anything seditious in it, we shall certainly stop distribution of it. So far as exhibiting in Prague is concerned, I may say that we have been invited to exhibit at that trade fair for the past three years, but to date we have not accepted the invitation.


George Alexander Drew: I am not suggesting there is anything actually seditious. I am merely pointing out that it is extremely clever and well-illustrated propaganda for what is taking place in Czechoslovakia today.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say that trade matters do not ordinarily concern themselves with political matters, but since this has been drawn to my attention I shall see if there is anything on the political side to which objection could be taken.


Mr. Cruickshank:: I should like to ask one question in connection with this picture. I have not seen it, so I hope the leader of the opposition will send me a copy; but is there a picture of the member for Coast-Capilano in that issue?



CANADA GRAIN ACT


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, May 30, consideration of the motion of Mr. Howe for the second reading of Bill No. 249, to amend the Canada Grain Act.
[Stage Direction]
Canada Grain Act
Mr. H. O. White (Middlesex East):: Mr. Speaker, when the house adjourned last evening I mentioned the fact that there were a few matters related to Bill No. 249 which I desired to bring to the attention of the minister. While the matters I may touch upon do not deal particularly with the amendments now before us, I believe this is the only opportunity I shall have to bring them to the attention of the minister. These are some of the things in which the growers of cash grains in southwestern Ontario are interested. In schedule D of Bill No. 249 I notice there is a reference to white pea beans. The beans in which the southwestern Ontario growers are interested are soybeans and not those beans mentioned in this schedule.
On April 15 last a meeting of the soybean growers was called in Chatham. All hon. members in southwestern Ontario were invited to the meeting, and certain proposals were placed before us. Most of those hon. members are as interested in this matter as I am. The fact is that the soybean growers find themselves with only one or two buyers in Canada. The net result is that in most cases there is only one buyer, and one can realize the position in which the growers are placed in that case. Not only the soybean producers, but the producers of corn, fall wheat and other grains are interested in having the Canada Grain Act extended to the area of southwestern Ontario that is now engaged in the growing of cash grains. In pursuing the matter after the meeting of April 15 I addressed a letter to the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), asking him the proper procedure for those growers in having the Canada Grain Act amended so that it would embrace southwestern Ontario. I shall read a paragraph from the minister's reply:
Consideration will have to be given not only to the individual amendments that would be required to the Canada Grain Act but also to the extent to which the principle of this legislation, framed originally to apply to grain that is, in the main, marketed interprovincially and internationally, could be made to cover the marketing of crops that are sold wholly or chiefly within the province where they are produced.
That directs our attention to some of the difficulties with which these growers are faced. I wish to point out, and I believe it is significant, that the soybean growers of southwestern Ontario are not asking for subsidies nor for floor prices. In a country in which nearly every commodity group is asking for subsidies or floor prices, one must pay a little attention to a group of producers who say they want neither floor prices nor subsidies.
A large increase in soybean acreage is expected in the United States. Since we are

an importing nation so far as soybeans and soybean oil are concerned, an extremely heavy production of soybeans in the United States might result in a serious price drop, or the government might support the price in the United States and dump the surplus products on the Canadian market. The Canadian growers fear that possibility. I point that out so that you can see the position in which these farmers find themselves.
In order to give the house some idea of the enormous increase in the production of soybeans in southwestern Ontario, I might say that in 1945 the production totalled 842,000 bushels. This figure has gradually increased during the years, until in 1949 there were
2,600,000	bushels produced. When it is realized that this production means keeping Canadian dollars at home instead of sending them abroad to buy American soybeans and American oil, it can be seen it is an important factor.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the hon. member
permit a question?


Harry Oliver White: Yes.


George Alexander Cruickshank: What is soybean used
for normally?


Harry Oliver White: I understand
that some of it goes into margarine.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I hope that they all fail.


Harry Oliver White: I think that is outside the question at the moment. It was your government that put the Canadian farmer in this fix, and I am suggesting a means of helping him.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Our government did not get them into it.


Harry Oliver White: It certainly
did. It was not the province of Ontario that got them into it, anyway. I should like to refer to the importation of oil from the United States. According to Foreign Trade, published by the Department of Trade and Commerce, in the month of January, 1950, there was $2,111,000 worth of foreign oil imported into Canada. If we can encourage these growers in southwestern Ontario to continue growing soybeans, possibly we can reduce that expenditure of Canadian dollars on foreign oil. I just mention this in passing because, as I said in the beginning, I realize that this possibly is not the place that this can all be done. But I am going to use here the resolution passed by the Ontario soybean growers; and by the way, their association is set up under the Ontario products marketing act. I will read you the entire resolution and the facts that they have put before us leading up to this resolution.

During the past few months the directors of the Soybeans Grower's Marketing Board, who are elected representatives of the Soybean growers of Essex, Kent, Pelee Island, Lambton, Huron, Elgin and Middlesex counties, have given considerable study to the sale and handling of soybeans and other cash crops in western Ontario.
Increased production and higher prices received for soybeans, corn, wheat and pea beans has greatly increased the value of these crops to farmers. There are at present no regulations governing the handling, sale, storage and transportation of these products by country elevators, track loaders, and truckers, in western Ontario. Nor is financial responsibility required of them. A producer sells his grain or beans on a grade and moisture basis, but must accept the grade and moisture given him by the purchaser. He has no recourse to an injustice except through courts of law.
In seeking the means to give more protection to the producer a study has been made of the licensing and bonding of country elevators in western Canada under the Canada Grain Act.
The directors are impressed with the protection given the western producer under the act by regulations governing the sale, and transportation of grain in western Canada, and by the efficient administration of the act by the board of grain commissioners for Canada.
The following resolution was passed at a meeting of the board of directors of the Ontario Soybeans Growers' Marketing Board held in Chatham, Ontario, April 15, I960.
"That the board of directors of the Ontario Soybeans Growers' Marketing Board is of the unanimous opinion that the sale, storage and transportation of grain grown in western Ontario for which grades are established in schedule 2 of the Canada Grain Act, could be better regulated by the licensing and bonding of country elevators and dealers in Ontario, buying grain under the Canada Grain Act, than is now the case.
That the board of grain commissioners for Canada be requested to consider revision of the act, necessary to its application to western Ontario, for the purpose of giving protection to producers by:
1.	Insurance of the proper conduct of the business in accordance with provisions of the act and regulations and to guarantee the farmers from loss through mismanagement or dishonesty of the operator.
2.	Provision for sale by the farmer of his grain for cash on a grade agreed upon with the operator, or to have the right to demand that sale be made subject to inspector's grade and dockage.
3.	The inspection of scales, equipment, records and returns of licensees.
4.	Requiring a licensee to keep a complete record of his transactions and make reports to the board as required.
5.	Approving the form of tickets and receipts that shall be issued to the producer on the sale or storage of his grain."
This brief respectfully submitted to the board1 of grain commissioners for their consideration and direction. The directors are of the opinion that it is of vital importance that the producer be protected in the sale and handling of his grain.
This is signed by the president and the secretary of the association.


George Alexander Cruickshank: What did they say about the dairy farmer?


Harry Oliver White: We are not
discussing the dairy farmer at the moment.
Canada Grain Act


George Alexander Cruickshank: We are discussing marketing.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Harry Oliver White: I discussed this matter with some of the officials, and it just so happened that the flood at Winnipeg was at its height and it was difficult to make contact with Mr. Mackenzie at the time. Then the minister and Mr. Mackenzie went to Britain, and so we have not been able to get as far advanced with this as I had hoped at this particular time. It is because of that situation that I took these few minutes to explain to the minister and to the house what the aims and hopes of the growers in southwestern Ontario are.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Dion in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Publication.
Mr. Wright:: This is the clause under which the board makes regulations with respect to the tariff's that may be charged in country elevators or in terminal elevators. I wanted to bring one matter to the minister's attention with regard to the tariffs which are in force at the present time. That is the matter of the diversion charges on grain going to the port of Churchill. These diversion charges are, I believe, from one and a half cents to two cents a bushel; and they are charged by elevator companies who have control of the grain of any shipper when that shipper wishes to have that grain diverted to other than the terminal elevator either owned or controlled by the company shipping the grain. In that case a diversion charge is made.
At the port of Churchill there is only one elevator. That is a government-controlled or government-owned elevator, or an elevator operated by the government. Therefore that grain going to the port of Churchill must pay this diversion charge. On the other hand, grain shipped to Port Arthur-Fort William or to Vancouver seldom carries a diversion charge, the result being that most of the elevator companies either own or have leased elevators at Port Arthur and Fort William; so normally the grain handled by those companies goes direct to their own controlled elevators and there is no diversion charge. This results in a discrimination against grain going to the port of Churchill and results in an additional charge of one and a half cents on all grain being shipped to that port.
I should like to ask the minister if he would bring this matter to the attention of the board of grain commissioners. I feel that if

Canada Grain Act
the wheat board were to bring this matter to the attention of the board of grain commissioners, and were to make representation that this diversion charge in the case of Churchill be dropped, that matter could be accomplished. I just wanted to bring this matter to the minister's attention, and ask him to bring it to the attention of the wheat board and have them make application to the board of grain commissioners respecting it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Section 2 provides that instead of the regulations being published at the .end of the crop year, the consolidation be published at the beginning of the crop year. I think my hon. friend would be favourable to that procedure. I understand the problem to which my hon. friend has referred in the debate on his own amendment and again today. I did not realize that it infringes upon the duties of the board of grain commissioners, but I rather think it does; and I shall be pleased to call his remarks to the attention, of the board.


George Alexander Cruickshank: As Vancouver has been mentioned, I should like to make one remark. Although I do not happen to represent that particular city, I am from British Columbia. I should like to point out to the committee that the port of Vancouver, unlike Churchill, is open three hundred and sixty-five and a half days of the year, not just about thirty days.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 3 to 5 inclusive agreed to.
On section 6-Grain to be received as offered without discrimination.
Mr. Charlton:: By section 6, subsection one of section 133 of the old act is to be repealed and the following substituted therefor:
Subject to this section, the operator of every licensed public or semi-public terminal elevator and, unless otherwise provided by the terms of his licence, the operator of every eastern elevator, shall, without discrimination and in the order in which the same arrives at such elevator and is offered, receive into such elevator all grain of any grade for which there is available storage of the kind required by the person by whom such grain is offered.
Does that include all grain elevators? Section 10 reads:
All elevators in Canada heretofore or hereafter constructed are hereby declared to be works for the general advantage of Canada.
Does section 6 include all elevators? If it does, 1 think it is going a little too far.


Clarence Decatur Howe: According to the definitions of the act:
"Elevator" means any premises into which western grain may be received, or out of which it may be discharged, directly from or into railway cars or vessels, and, notwithstanding anything contained

in any other general or special act, includes any such premises owned or operated by His Majesty, either directly or through any individual, public body or company.
Therefore, if it is an elevator to receive and discharge western grain it comes under the act. If it is holding only local grain it does not come under the act.


John Alpheus Charlton: It does not include an ordinary feed elevator in eastern Canada-


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


John Alpheus Charlton: -buying western feed grain?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, it would not; it speaks of shipping western grain. It would not include a feed elevator that ships western feed.


John Alpheus Charlton: This section does not mention anything about reshipment at all, as I see it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The elevator definition is as I just read it. An eastern feed mill is not a work for the benefit of Canada and does not come under the grain act.


John Alpheus Charlton: I do not think that is a satisfactory answer because there is nothing in the bill which says it is confined to grain in transit, western grain or eastern grain. The words "eastern elevator" are used in section 6. If this is discrimination against an eastern elevator that is buying feed grain and has to accept grade 3 grain in lieu of grade 2, which it ordered, I do not think it is right.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Which would my hon. friend consider discrimination

to have it declared a work for the benefit of Canada and subject to the jurisdiction of the board of grain commissioners, or otherwise?


John Alpheus Charlton: I am not saying anything about that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend spoke of discrimination.


John Alpheus Charlton: As I see it the discrimination is right in this section of the bill.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Does the hon. member want the feed mill to be a public elevator or not?


John Alpheus Charlton: It is right in the bill. He must accept the grain regardless of whether it was what he ordered or not. That is the discrimination I am speaking of.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. A feed mill in eastern Canada is a private institution. The owner of the mill does not have to accept any grain unless he wishes to. He does not handle the public's grain. I do not know of any feed mill in eastern Canada that handles public grain.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 to 9 inclusive agreed to.

On section 10-Elevators declared to be for general advantage of Canada.
John Alpheus Charlton: Section 10 reads:
All elevators in Canada heretofore or hereafter constructed are hereby declared to be works for the general advantage of Canada.
I would like the minister to explain that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It turns on the definitions of the act, and I have read them two or three times. It refers to elevators handling western public grain. If it is a feed mill, all grain is bought by the owner of the feed mill before it goes into the elevator. Therefore, if it is a private feed mill it does not come under the act. If it does not handle the public's grain it does not come under the act. In some instances, feed mills in western Canada do both kinds of business, handle public grain and also act as a part of a feed mill. In that instance they are works for the benefit of Canada; but there is nothing parallel to that situation in eastern Canada that I know of.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 11 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
Schedules A, B and C agreed to.
On schedule D.
John Alpheus Charlton: Apropos of what the hon. member for Middlesex East has asked, does schedule D include soybeans?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It includes white beans, so-called. Soybeans are graded by the province of Ontario, assisted by the Department of Agriculture of the federal government. It is questionable whether the board of grain commissioners would have the constitutional authority to grade grains which are grown and consumed in the one province. The board of grain commissioners handles grain that moves in interprovincial traffic or for export.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Chairman, when I hear the word "soybean" I become very interested. I should like a little further explanation from the minister because I am doubtful and sceptical about soybeans grown in any quantity in Canada, since they are detrimental to the dairy farmers of Canada. What are these soybeans to be used for? How are they to be protected? Are they to be protected to the detriment of the dairy producers of Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The present act does not cover soybeans, Mr. Chairman. In other words the question is irrelevant to the act.
I should say to the hon. member for Middlesex East that his problem has been put before the board of grain commissioners. I received a letter from the board today which I shall be 55946-192
War Veterans Allowance Act glad to pass on to him. The problem cannot be dealt with in this amendment to the grain act, for various reasons; but I shall be glad to give him such information as I have, and perhaps it can be held over for another revision of the act.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like this schedule to stand until an explanation is given.


[Stage Direction]
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice) moved: the second reading of Bill No. 250, to bring the Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act into force in Newfoundland.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Dion in the chair.
Sections 1 to 6 inclusive agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Monday, May 29, consideration in committee of Bill No. 180, to amend the War Veterans Allowance Act, 1946-Mr. Gregg-Mr. Dion in the chair.
On section 6-Part V.
Mr. Green:: This is the section which adds a new part to the War Veterans Allowance Act and provides for the setting up of district authorities who, as I understand the bill, are to have practically all the jurisdiction hitherto exercised by the war veterans allowance board. Is it the intention to set up an authority in each district composed of certain men who will act continuously, or will there be different officials in the district doing the work at different times? Will the boards be different from time to time? This is not made clear in the new section 31.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, it is the intention to set up these district authorities in
3036	HOUSE OF
War Veterans Allowance Act each district. It is also the intention that the members of each district authority shall be officials then in those district offices. For instance, it might well be that the chairman of the committee would be the senior administrator, or the second in command in the district. Depending upon each district, of course, one of the members may be a representative of the Veterans Land Act administration, if such representation would be useful and would be the means of co-ordinating and unifying all the information. As will have been guessed at once, the official who has been chiefly responsible up to now for obtaining information on applications, and investigating them, will play an important part and more than likely would be the secretary of the district authority. I hope that answers the hon. member's question.


Howard Charles Green: Not quite. Will the authority set up act continuously? For instance, will A, B and C be appointed the authority in the Vancouver district and deal with all applications, or will three officials be picked out from the department to work on war veterans allowances for one month, and a different group be picked for the next month? The act is so worded that either procedure could be followed. This brings up the question as to whether it would not be wise to have one group dealing with all the applications, so that a procedure may be established in the district, rather than to have different sets of officials acting at different times.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I am glad the hon. member has raised the point, because that is exactly our intention, namely that there shall be continuity, and that the persons constituting this district authority shall be in a general sense permanent. Of course there would have to be changes from time to time, as there are in other posts; but it is our intention that to all intents and purposes those constituting the district authority shall be permanent.


Howard Charles Green: Under this part the new authorities are given very wide powers in dealing with applications. Indeed, I believe their powers are just as wide as those possessed by the war veterans allowance board. In the event of the granting of an application by the district authorities, is the veteran to be faced with an appeal by the department to the war veterans allowance board in Ottawa, or will such award be left untouched?
There is provision in the new part for appeal by veterans if they are dissatisfied with awards by district authorities. However, the sections are not clear as to what is to be done in the event of a successful application by a veteran. Is it to be the practice that a favour-


able award by a district authority will be final, or is there to be an appeal by the department to the war veterans allowance board here in Ottawa?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No award is final in the absolute sense, as my hon. friend knows. I believe I would be answering his question if I were to say that it is the intention that an award made by a district authority shall stand, subject to review later either by the district authority or by any member of the board. But it is not the intention that members of the board, as they visit districts, shall immediately review the awards made by a district authority to ascertain whether or not they were correctly made.


Howard Charles Green: This is an important matter,
because the new district authorities are given the power to review their own decisions. In effect they may keep on dealing with an application. That of course is the jurisdiction of the present war veterans allowance board as set out in the old act. It does seem to me that, in view of these facts, if a district authority makes a favourable award the war veterans allowance board at Ottawa should keep out of the picture and not interfere with such favourable award.
My understanding of the minister's explanation made earlier in the discussion on the bill was that the war veterans allowance board is to be turned into an appeal board, and that its chief job will be to deal with appeals by veterans from unfavourable decisions made in the districts. If that is so there cannot be such objection to the change; but if on the other hand the members of the war veterans allowance board are now to go around from district to district reviewing decisions made in the districts, then I believe there will be a great deal of difficulty.


Milton Fowler Gregg: I believe I can answer the
question by repeating what I said two or three weeks ago. As the hon. member has pointed out, I did indicate that members of the board will now be able to spend more time in the districts than they have in the past. They will be able to have appearing before them those applicants who have felt that they have been treated unfairly. I stated also that it will be the duty of members of the board to make absolutely certain that fairness and uniformity are maintained right across the country. It would be difficult to set out exactly how they would do that. I think they will have to look over what has been done and discuss the whole situation with the district authorities. I can assure my hon. friend that they are not going to sit down and say, "You have made mistakes on this and we are going to cancel it out and make new decisions right away." There will be

continual consultation with the district authorities in an effort to maintain fairness and uniformity.


Howard Charles Green: The war veterans allowance board has always sat in Ottawa but apparently it is now to start travelling. I am not so sure that that is a good idea unless the board is to be restricted to hearing appeals by veterans from decisions of the district authorities. If this board is to go around from district to district reviewing cases, it is going to make a lot of trouble. If the minister intends the district authorities to do a job they must be given the responsibility. The burden of making these decisions must be left with them and not be subject to review by a board travelling out of Ottawa.
It should be definitely understood whether this war veterans allowance board is to be just an appeal board or whether it is to be a board of review. There is a great deal of difference in the two types of board. Personally I do not think it should be a review board going around to the different districts and interfering with them. My own opinion would be that it should be an appeal board, not a review board.
The war veterans allowance board here in Ottawa will not be in touch with the veterans in the same way as the district authorities will be, and the district authorities should have the right to decide whether a veteran should or should not get an allowance. If they decide that he should not get an allowance then it is quite proper that he have an appeal to the war veterans allowance board, but that board should be restricted to hearing such appeals.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Chairman, I shall be brief because I understand some other legislation is coming up before six o'clock. I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra except as far as repetition is concerned. My first complaint about the war veterans allowance is that it is not a proper allowance. It does not equal the old age pension. Supplementary payments totalling $500,000 were put through last year. As I said before, you would need to be a Philadelphia lawyer or come from Ontario to be able to understand the form that must be filled out.
I agree entirely with the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra that this whole procedure should be simplified. If the local authorities think a veteran is entitled to an allowance it should be given to him without all this red tape he must put up with now. I want to tell the minister that there are veterans of the first great war who are unable to have the necessities of life because of the 55946-1924
War Veterans Allowance Act mass of red tape in his department. I know he does not want that and I do not believe the officials want it, so, for goodness sake, let us wake up to the realities of life and wipe out these things. It should be easy to do.
I believe that this government and this parliament want to do everything possible for the war veterans. I do not like the term "war veterans allowance" because I believe these men have a right to be treated in a proper manner. They served their country so that you and I might sit here in freedom and be well paid and well fed.


An hon. Member:: And well watered.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Some members from
certain provinces are not as wise as they might be when you consider whence they come, but I think we can understand it.


An hon. Member:: Coming from British Columbia.


George Alexander Cruickshank: If one of my hon. friends wants to make a speech I shall be glad to sit down and let him do so. I want him to get up on his hind legs and make a speech on behalf of the veterans of Canada, not just to voters who are building the car that I am going to pick up in Oshawa next Monday. As I say, I do not think this allowance is adequate and I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra that the provisions should be simplified. The red tape should be eliminated so that the veteran in British Columbia or in Newfoundland can obtain this allowance without having to go-before some red cap in Ottawa.
I have had some experience with these matters on behalf of veterans in my riding. Even though I may not agree with all the provisions of the act I do suggest seriously that they be made more accessible to the veteran without the present unnecessary red tape.


Mr. Brooks:: How many districts have asked for this change? My experience in my own district is that they are quite satisfied with war veterans allowances being handled from, Ottawa. I think they would be quite satisfied if no change were made. I do not see how a board travelling around is going to simplify matters. I think the chairman of the war veterans allowance board has been doing an excellent job.
We have found in my province that in matters like old age pensions-this is really a form of old age pension for the soldier- when they are turned over to be administered by the province they become looked upon as being more or less political patronage. That should be avoided. The further it is away
3038	HOUSE OF
War Veterans Allowance Act from Ottawa and the more the provinces have to do with it, the more political patronage enters into it.
Not so long ago I brought up before the board in Ottawa certain cases which were turned down. I felt they had been turned down for good reasons, but around election time, if I may mention such times, some of my political opponents thought that these men should make further application for war veterans allowances. They were told that if they made application it was quite likely they would get it. They were turned down for the same reason as they had been turned down before, for which I commend the board.
I repeat that once this matter is decentralized, once the administration is placed in the hands of the provinces or districts, the more political patronage there will be. I fear that that is what is happening at the present time with a lot of our social security measures. Unless strong representations are received from the different districts throughout Canada I think this matter should be left with the board in Ottawa. I do not think a travelling board will improve the situation at all.


Milton Fowler Gregg: Mr. Chairman, I will not extend the discussion because I know that all who have taken part are anxious that the department should be given an opportunity to work this out carefully. I should like to thank the hon. member for Royal for his kind words about the chairman and the members of the board, with which I heartily agree. I think his remarks illustrate the point I was trying to make to the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, namely, the importance of the board, which has held and will continue to hold the resiponsibility for this matter, having a chance to review the work that is being carried on within the districts, and to give guidance and direction. I am sure that, during the coming year there will be an opportunity to work it out to the satisfaction of all districts concerned.


George Stanley White: Did I understand the minister to mean, in reply to the objection raised by the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, that all applications that go through the district authority will be reviewed by the board?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No.


George Stanley White: Which ones will be reviewed, those that are appealed?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Let me put it this way, and I am not attempting to tie the hands of those who will administer this legislation but rather to answer the question of my hon. friend. My opinion would be that in the ordinary case it would be those that the district


authority wanted to discuss with the board, or a representative of the board, on their next visit.


George Stanley White: Where an application is turned down by the district authority will it automatically be reviewed by the board without request?


Milton Fowler Gregg: If the applicant desires it, it will be reviewed by a member of the board.


Mr. Fulton:: I cannot quite appreciate the effect of the change that will be made when this goes through compared with the situation now existing. I understand that at the present time when applications are made by veterans living outside centres where the district offices are located the procedure is that an investigator is sent by the office to the outlying point to make an investigation and, as I understand it, his recommendation. Then the recommendation is simply approved or disallowed by the board in Ottawa. What will be the new procedure when the minister has gone through all this routine of setting up boards in the district offices?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I think 1 can answer more clearly by stating that it is an attempt to simplify and speed up applications. From now on it is the intention that decisions shall be made at the district office instead of down the street from here in Ottawa. Most of these decisions will be made by the district authority. The applications that are so approved by the district authority will be put into payment immediately, I hope, with less delay than in the past.


Edmund Davie Fulton: The recommendations for payment will still have to come to Ottawa?


Milton Fowler Gregg: No, they will be paid from the district office.	.


Edmund Davie Fulton: There is authority now in the district office to issue cheques?


Milton Fowler Gregg: Yes.


Mr. Herridge:: Before the section carries I should like to express my approval of it. I think it is an excellent section. I think when it is put into effect we in the province of British Columbia will benefit from it because there has been a certain loss of time owing to the present centralization. That is not the fault of the board. With other members of the house I want to commend the work the board has done. I think the procedure of a travelling board will result in much more benefit to those seeking war veterans allowance. In that way the board will obtain knowledge of the situation across the country and get closer to the veteran and the local situation. It will also standardize procedure, and I can see the advantage of that. I suggest that we would be well advised to watch the

administration of this section for a year and see how it functions. Personally I think it will be of great benefit to veterans in every section of Canada.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I do not think the minister answered my question. I asked how many districts have asked for this change. Frankly I do not think there has been a general request across Canada. I understand it has been mostly from the province of British Columbia.


Milton Fowler Gregg: There has been no formal request for it from the districts. As in a number of other cases in our legislation, it has been the result of our own departmental experience and the feeling that this would improve the situation. There has been no formal request.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 and 8 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: the second reading of Bill No. 89, to provide for the publication of statutory regulations.


Howard Charles Green: Will the Prime Minister explain the bill?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I have a statement to make which I can make now or in committee stage if it is more convenient. If any hon. member prefers that it be made now I am quite prepared to do so.


Howard Charles Green: We would like to have it now.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The main purpose of the bill is to ensure that all orders, regulations and proclamations, made or issued in the exercise of legislative powers delegated by parliament, are published and tabled in a systematic and uniform manner. There is no provision here for enlarging the powers to make orders or regulations. It is merely to deal with the exercise of powers already existing under prior legislation. It is to provide that there be one uniform system of tabling and publishing these orders. Such publication and tabling is to be compulsory. The provisions embodied in this measure are the result of comparative studies of procedures followed in other countries, notably in the United Kingdom, and of experience gained in the application of the provisions of the statutory orders and regulations order made during the war.
Regulations Act
Perhaps it might be useful to review briefly the practice presently followed in the publication of statutory orders and regulations. As hon. members know, since the first of January, 1947, all proclamations, orders, rules and regulations of a legislative character or of an administrative character having general effect or imposing a penalty, whether these instruments are made by the governor in council, a minister, a board or other agent empowered by act of parliament, are published fortnightly in part II of the Canada Gazette, known as "statutory orders and regulations". This procedure was established by order in council P.C. 4876 on the 26th of November, 1946, under authority conferred by section 30 of the Public Printing and Stationery Act. This order in council also authorized the compilation and publication of a consolidation of all orders, rules, regulations and proclamations of a legislative character which were in effect on a given date.
A consolidation of such statutory orders and regulations in effect on December 31, 1949, has been prepared and is in the hands of the king's printer. I had hoped it would be available for distribution even before we reached this bill. I believe that early next week we shall have one or two volumes of the compilation. We wanted to get together, in convenient form, so that people could have ready access to them, everything that is now in force. Then we would have a systematized regular form for publishing anything new, so that it would be easier for all those who ought to be informed to know that, if it is not in such and such a place, it does not exist, and there is no need for taking into account anything that is not in this consolidation or that has not been published in the form called for by this bill.
The order in council to which I have just referred is known as "The statutory orders and regulations order, 1947". It was an attempt to find a practical and workable solution to the increasingly difficult problem of delegated legislation. This problem is not by any means restricted to Canada. The same difficulties have had to be met in all democratic countries. Particularly in the years during and since the war, the ramifications of public business have multiplied to such an extent that the representatives of the people have found it a practical necessity to delegate an increasing amount of subsidiary powers to the executive, or to boards or other agencies. Canada is no exception, and our parliament has delegated more and more regulatory powers to the governor in council, ministers, boards and other crown agencies.
For many years now, the government has been concerned with the problem of keeping parliament, and the public, fully informed

Regulations Act
with respect to this increasing volume of so-called delegated legislation. It is for this reason that during the war orders in council were passed directing that all orders, regulations, and proclamations of a legislative character, or even of an administrative character that provided for penalties, should be published. It was also for this reason that the statutory orders and regulations order, 1947, was passed. This procedure was adopted because we thought we would take some time to find out, by practical experience, how it worked before we brought something to parliament in the form of a statute. Three years have now elapsed since the passing of that order. Considerable experience has been gained during that time, and has resulted in amendments that, from time to time, have been made to the original 1947 order. We feel that the time has now come when we can bring to parliament something that should be practical and workable, and which may not have to be varied too frequently or too soon. This does provide unequivocally for the compulsory publication and tabling of all instruments made under the delegated legislative powers; that is the sole purpose of this measure. Although largely based on the statutory orders and regulations order, 1947, this bill will further clarify and extend the procedure, in order to ensure that it covers the whole field of delegated legislation.
The statutory orders and regulations order was passed only after a comparative study had been made of the procedure followed in other countries, notably in the United Kingdom. At that time, careful consideration was also given to the United Kingdom parliamentary committee on delegated legislation. Following a suggestion made in this house on September 22, 1949, by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), I undertook to give renewed consideration to the operation of the United Kingdom committee and, in the light of its operation and of such other considerations as might seem relevant, to indicate at an early stage in this session whether we would be prepared to support the establishment of a similar committee. We do not believe we should recommend at this time that sort of committee because most of the statutory regulations have to be made by the governor in council, and that gives considerable time for checking, whilst in the United Kingdom most of these things are done by boards or other agencies of the crown. No one who is responsible to parliament or to the public hears of these regulations until they have become law. This United Kingdom committee has strictly limited terms of reference that probably would not fit our situation. They have to
report on whether or not the order infringes seven stated principles. If it does not, the committee has nothing to do with it. If it does, they call attention to that fact. We do not believe that would be a remedy that would fit our situation.
It was not possible to make a definition of regulations that would exclude the sort of thing one does not want to have in this. For instance, it might be that an order given to an aeroplane from a control tower would be a regulation. That would be one thing for one occasion. This bill provides that the general rule will be that everything has to be published, but that the governor in council may except certain classes. In order to do so, however, that class or those classes would have to be published and tabled, so that members of parliament will see what is to be excepted. Then they can make such comment as they think justified upon the exception that will be made.
We think that we have here made a serious attempt to be as helpful as possible. All those who want to know their way about in this quite large number of things that operate by virtue of acts of parliament, having that consolidation-I think there will be four or five volumes of it-will find we are trying to have a proper table made, because it will be just as convenient to us as it will be to other members of parliament. After that, we shall have this compulsory practice of having to table and publish in a systematized way, and register in the privy council office, the things that are in force. By consulting that register, even the things that will have ceased to be in force will be found, including the date when they came into force and when they ceased to be in force. The register will be easily accessible, so that all those concerned will be able to get, as expeditiously as possible, the information they require to govern their own conduct or, with respect to lawyers, to advise their clients.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It being six o'clock, I move the adjournment of the debate.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we shall go into supply and take up the estimates of the following departments:	National Resources
and Development, Veterans Affairs, Citizenship and Immigration.


Howard Charles Green: In that order?


Alphonse Fournier: In that order.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.


[Stage Direction]
of
HONOURABLE LIAQUAT ALI KHAN	*
Prime Minister of Pakistan to

[Stage Direction]
in the
House of Commons Chamber, Ottawa on
Wednesday, May 31, 1950
The Prime Minister of Pakistan was welcomed by the Right Honourable L. S. St. Laurent, Prime Minister of Canada, and thanked by the Honourable Elie Beauregard, Speaker of the Senate, and the Honourable W. Ross Macdonald,
Speaker of the House of Commons.
Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Prime Minister, members of the houses of parliament: In welcoming you today, sir, we wish to pay a tribute to your great country, which in so short a time has attained a place of prominence in the world community; to the rank it holds in the concert of nations as an active member of the United Nations and a sister nation of the commonwealth, and, last but not least, to the record of your personal achievement as Prime Minister of Pakistan.
We in turn are honoured by your presence in this House of Commons. These words of greetings are naturally addressed to you on behalf of the whole population of Canada; I find it particularly fitting, however, that this welcome be extended to you in our own House of Commons, the centre of the political life of Canada and the very heart of our democratic institutions. It is fitting indeed that greetings from one democracy to another originate in the House of Commons chamber.
The accomplishments of your country since it began its separate political existence on August 14, 1947, evoke sincere admiration. Your countrymen had a long tradition of history in the Asian subcontinent. Still it is only less than three years ago-and what are three years in the life of a nation?-that the dominion of Pakistan came into being. The
astonishing progress made during such a short time augurs well for the future, and you may rest assured, sir, that we in this country will watch your future achievements with the same friendly interest we have had in what has already been accomplished in so short a time.
The future of Pakistan, notwithstanding differences in religion and language, in customs and habits, notwithstanding lands and oceans which separate it from Canada, is closely related to our own through our common association in the United Nations, our partnership in the commonwealth, and, most of all, in our common belief in those values which form the very basis of democratic life. We hope therefore that our association will become closer and closer as we get to know each other better. The exchange of high commissioners between our two countries is but a first step in this direction.
At present Canadians are wont to associate particularly the names of two men with Pakistan: that of Mr. Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who is regarded as the father of his country and whose name has been immortalized by a grateful people's use of the title "the Great Leader", and your own, Mr. Prime Minister. Mr. Jinnah, in creating a new nation, relied heavily upon you, Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, whom he described as his "right-hand man'*.
3042	HOUSE OF
Hon. Liaquat Ali Khan As his death occurred so soon after the establishment of the independence of Pakistan, there fell upon your shoulders, sir, the tremendous task of giving substance to the blueprint of building the machinery of government in order that your nation might effectively express the will of the Pakistan people to contribute, through democratic processes, to the welfare of mankind.
(Translation):
Mr. Prime Minister, your stay in Canada, short though it may be, will allow you, I hope, to realize the interest we take in your country and your people. As our contacts become closer and more frequent, we shall better understand our mutual problems and be in a position to find a more satisfactory solution.
I wish to assure you that you may count on the understanding and good will of the Canadian people as Canada expects the same from your fellow citizens.
(Text):
In greeting you on this occasion, may I be permitted, Mr. Prime Minister, to state how happy we are that you are accompanied by your charming wife. Her gentleness and gracious manner almost belie the dominating force which the Begum Liaquat Ali Khan is known to exercise in organizing the women of Pakistan to meet the challenge of providing social security under most difficult circumstances.
On behalf of the parliament and people of Canada I ask that the Honourable Liaquat Ali Khan convey to the people of Pakistan, on his return, our best wishes for their wellbeing and happiness, together with the assurances of deep friendship.
Members of the houses of parliament, I present to you the Prime Minister of Pakistan.


Hon. Liaquat Ali  Khan@Prime Minister of Pakistan: Mr. Speaker of the Senate, Mr. Speaker of the House of Commons, honourable members of the Canadian parliament: In permitting me to address you here today within these walls, you have conferred upon me a great honour and privilege which I value very highly and for which in the name of my country and my nation I thank you.
As the recipient of this signal token of your esteem my thoughts at this moment turn to the struggle which made it possible for our people to emerge as a free democratic nation to take their rightful place amongst the free nations of the world. For in honouring me today you honour them, their freedom, and the memory of that courageous man who guided their footsteps towards the goal, of liberty. You will pardon me, therefore, if on this memorable occasion I am reminded of

the father of our nation and the founder of our freedom, our Great Leader, our Quaid-e-Azam, Mohammed Ali Jinnah of revered memory, without whose vision, determination and burning honesty Pakistan might have remained a vague longing and a distant dream, and the reality, of which my humble presence in your august company today is but a symbol, might never have been born. A sincere patriot, a passionate follower of the democratic idea, and a man who saw farther and more clearly than his fellows, he led the Muslims of British India out of their perplexities and frustrations into the open air of freedom, and gave shape, significance and direction to their quest for liberty. All his life he fought for freedom, but since he fought for the substance and not for the shadow, for the thing and not for the word, he let no illusions or catch-phrases obscure his penetrating insight or confound his grasp of the essentials. He struggled long and hard to forge the diverse peoples of his subcontinent into a mighty nation. But foremost as he was in the ranks of those who fought for independence, he was also the first to perceive the inexorable logic of facts, and, when the time came, to proclaim fearlessly that the people of British India, bound together though they were in their common subjection, were not one, but two nations, and that to relegate one hundred million Muslims to the position of a perpetual political minority and to force the Hindu nation and the Muslim nation into a single unwieldly state would be the negation of democracy and would create the greatest single unstable area in the world. The great truth that he uttered was so startling in its simplicity that for a long time even some of his close friends and companions found it stimulating, but strange. But the hundred million suppressed Muslims knew instinctively that what he said merely gave coherence and dynamism to their own hesitant, inarticulate feelings. When on the 14th of August, 1947, our flag was unfurled in Karachi, a nation of eighty million people thanked God that the Quaid-e-Azam had lived to see his dream come true. And when he left us to rest in God, to whose greater glory he had dedicated himself, we knew that he had bequeathed to us a great destiny to fulfil. Wherever the flag of Pakistan may fly, its capital shall always be that hallowed piece of earth where he lies buried.
The three years that have elapsed brought with them many a trial that we expected and many others that we did not. The mass migration that took place between our country and our neighbour, and caused much unhappiness to people on either side of the border, was a great shock to our economy

and a great strain on our administrative machinery, which, it will be recalled, had had to be set up within a period of two months for a population of eighty million and for a territory that was spread far and wide. But our experiences, whether grave or stimulating, only convinced us that the historic decision that the Muslims of British India had taken, to work for a state of their own., was eminently justified. What is more, the events of these early years and the manner in which the people of Pakistan faced them have filled us with hope and confidence for the future. It was not the maturity of our administration or any previous experience or preparation that helped us to tide over the almost insurmountable difficulties that appeared in our way. Experience or preparedness we had none; for there had been no time for these. It was the fortitude and the determination and the self-sacrifice of the common man and woman which came to our rescue and gave our young state a momentum which will not be easily exhausted and which we believe will grow in strength. No new state could have been launched on its career under greater handicaps. But these three years of struggle have made us a wiser and more unified nation than we could have otherwise hoped to become within such a short time. Although they demanded great courage, patience and vigilance, they have endeared our freedom to us even more and have shown to us very clearly the path to a bright future.
To what use do the Muslims who form the majority of the people of Pakistan propose to put their freedom? This is a question which we as a nation have pointedly asked ourselves and to which we have a clear and unhesitating answer.
First, we are determined that the Muslims iu our state shall be enabled to order their lives in accordance with their faith; that at the same time our minorities shall enjoy full rights of citizenship and shall freely profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures, and that their legitimate interests and the interests of the backward and depressed classes shall be adequately safeguarded.
Second, we are pledged to the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice as enunciated by Islam. This does not mean theocracy; for Islam does not believe either in priesthood or in the caste system. On the contrary our conception of democracy is possibly even more comprehensive than that which is contained in the institutions of universal franchise and majority rule. For it embraces social and economic justice, the right of 55046-193
Hon. Liaquat Ali Khan private ownership, of each individual to enjoy the fruit of his honest labour.-and yet with laws and institutions designed to eliminate destitution and to place healthy checks on vast accumulations of unearned wealth.
All this we call the Islamic way of life and pursue it because as Muslims we could not follow any other ideology or seek guidance from any other source but God, whose injunctions we believe these to foe. To abandon these principles would be for us to destroy, instead of create, what we hope to build up and for which we demanded independence and freedom and a separate state.
Third, we are resolved to safeguard our freedom at all costs, whatever the threat and whatever the quarter from which aggression may face us. For our own part we have no aggressive designs and consider it our moral responsibility to pursue the path of peace and to help in the maintenance of peace and stability everywhere, particularly in the uneasy continent of Asia, on whose future, according to our way of thinking, world peace very largely depends. Nowhere in Asia are the circumstances for the development of the democratic idea more naturally favourable than they are in Pakistan; for nowhere are people more unified and more determined to apply their moral concepts of equality and social and economic justice to promote human welfare and to resist any attempt to tamper with their beliefs. But democracy, in Pakistan or elsewhere, is of little use to the common man unless its advantages are made available to him in his daily life and his standard of living is raised at least to a level which gives him a substantial stake in the way of life which he has chosen for himself.
We are fully conscious of this, and consider it our foremost duty to develop the resources of our country at the greatest possible speed. Even in the days of our greatest anxieties we were able to go ahead with this task, and though much remains to be done we are glad that we have been able to revive our trade, to plan the development of our irrigation, the expansion and modernization of our agriculture and the utilization of our power resources; to keep our budgets balanced and to throw the gates wide open to private enterprise in our industrial development. For this task there is nothing more essential to us and nothing that we could or do desire more passionately than peace.
I know that in Canada I am among friends and speaking to people who are in the same family circle as Pakistan. I feel therefore that I can speak somewhat more intimately

Hon. Liaquat Ali Khan than is perhaps usual on formal occasions. Your great country and our young state both belong to the commonwealth of nations. I am not one of those who would demand that the bond which exists between the various members of the commonwealth be minutely defined. It is enough for me to know that they all basically have the same constitution, even though one of them may be a monarchy and another a republic, and all subscribe to the common principles of democracy, freedom and peace. In the uneasy, apprehensive world of today, such a large group of nations with so much identity in their declared aims should be a heartening spectacle to mankind. No practical person would therefore wish wantonly for its disintegration.
Two facts, however, I would humbly and respectfully commend to your1 attention. First, that with the growth of three Asiatic members of the commonwealth to the status of dominions, the notion that the commonwealth ties are mainly religious, historical or racial must be regarded as having outlived its use. If the commonwealth does nothing more than give the world a lead in establishing the brotherhood of man, irrespective of race, creed or colour, it will still have made a notable contribution to the cause of human welfare. Second, that since the greatest fear of the world is the fear of war, under whose shadow progress alters its aims and millions of humble men and women wait helplessly and apprehensively for an undeserved doom, the commonwealth has great opportunities for raising the hopes of mankind by outlawing war and aggression and the use of coercion or force as a method of settling disputes amongst its own members. We sincerely believe that in this way this free association of free nations can set the world an inspiring example and can give greater reality and efficacy not only to itself but also to the charter of the United Nations, to whose aims we are all pledged and whose success we all pray for.
The ideals of a freedom-loving, democratic, but young and underdeveloped country such as ours, could be epitomized in three words- peace, progress and co-operation. These three are but aspects of the same fundamental urge; for there can be no progress without peace, no peace without progress and the removal of the economic disequilibrium, so apparent in Asia, which keeps more than half the world in poverty and the ferment of discontent, or without international cooperation, which we believe to be the greatest need of all countries, great and small. In the pursuit of democratic ideals few countries have shown greater sincerity of purpose and a higher quality of quiet determination than yours. Blessed with the wealth of natural
resources, you have shown the world how a nation, by dint of hard work, by its unity, its sturdy moral qualities, its progressive yet modest outlook, its wide international sympathies and its neighbourliness, can raise itself to great heights, bringing happiness to many and fear to none among those who love peace and honour the freedom of others as they do their own. I am sure that we can look forward to a long period of friendship between our two countries, and that in any joint moral undertaking to promote the welfare of mankind and good will and peace amongst nations, Pakistan and Canada will be more than friends. God bless your country and its people.
(Translation):


Hon. Elie Beauregard (Speaker of the Senate):: Your Excellency, the Upper Chamber and the French-speaking people, on whose behalf I am now speaking, are pleased to welcome both yourself and your charming wife and collaborator, and to thank you for the friendly visit you have paid the Canadian parliament as well as for the substantial speech you have delivered. In you we greet a distinguished representative of a commonwealth nation which, in addition, is one of the world's great countries.
By its spiritual unity, based on the teachings and tradition of Islam, the sovereign state of Pakistan binds two territories that, oddly enough, are divided geographically. This thousand year old bond, of which religion and culture are the warp and woof, you recognize as stronger, as more imperious than that of mere neighbourhood or of the continuation of the land.
Pakistan's evolution provides one of the most interesting chapters of world history. In a sort of prophetic vision, your great poet Iqbal foresaw the development which you have made it your mission to achieve.
Under your leadership, your country, which throughout the ages has known and absorbed many civilizations, has progressed rapidly in the economic field. Though this is somewhat contrary to our conception of a legendary and static Orient, we can but rejoice at its march towards progress and a better standard of living, benefits which are common to all true democracies.
Following in the footsteps of the illustrious Mohammed Ali Jinnah, you recognize, as the leader of your country, that your authority comes to you from the people. You have desired to establish your country's constitution on a democratic basis and to complete its independence by making its policy as one with its ideals.
Through your character and your culture, as well as through the exigencies of our time, you are enabled to understand to the full

what democracy really means. You know that a strong nation is one in which the several units are made responsible for national development, by being called upon to participate in the administration of public affairs.
Your industrial and social program is commensurate with your overflowing personality. You are extending in the economic sphere the reform accomplished in the political field. Without breaking your age-long traditions, you are leading your people to the development of natural resources, industry and world trade. Pakistan will thus be a democratic, industrial and prosperous country.
May we, Your Excellency, greet in you the great architect of this national revival and offer you a tribute of admiration and the expression of our best wishes.
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Hon. W. Ross Macdonald (Speaker of the House of Commons):: Honourable members of the Senate and of the House of Commons: From time to time our parliament has been honoured by visits from internationally known statesmen. Once again this honour has come to us. Today we have had the privilege of receiving the Prime Minister of a new nation which has been formed by people of ancient lineage and great traditions. The history of our country is very short compared to that of the country of our distinguished visitor, but we are a few years older in the status of nationhood. We are both young nations. I am sure we were all very much pleased to hear our Prime Minister say that we are sister nations; and then,
Hon. Liaquat Ali Khan shortly after, we were happy indeed to hear our distinguished visitor say that we belong to the same family circle.
Pakistan and Canada have many things in common. Allow me to mention but one. Both countries are bordered by powerful nations which speak the same or a similar language, and which have the same customs and traditions. Canada has lived in peace with her powerful neighbour for nearly 150 years. I am sure that I speak for all our members when I say that we hope our younger sister, Pakistan, will enjoy with her neighbour the same peaceful relations as her elder sister, Canada, has enjoyed with her neighbour.
Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, may I express to you our admiration for the statesmanship which has already been demonstrated by you in facing the problems which have confronted you. We are deeply impressed by the high morale of your people and their faith in the belief that their new status as a sovereign independent nation will gradually bring to them a better way of life.
Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan, on behalf of the members of the Canadian House of Commons, I extend to you our deep appreciation for your very informative and inspiring address this afternoon. Our Prime Minister has asked you to convey a message to all your people. May I, as Speaker of the House of Commons, ask you upon your return to Pakistan to carry our greetings to your constituent assembly, and to tell your members how happy Canadians were today to have in their houses of parliament the Prime Minister of Pakistan.
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Thursday, June 1, 1950