1949-12-08

PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
Mr. Jean Fran$ois Poulioi (Temiscouata):
For a long time, Mr. Speaker, I have not risen to a question of privilege. I will do so now. My attention has been drawn to an article which appeared in the stalest of all weeklies, edited by the most self-complacent of all idiots; I refer to Toronto Saturday Night. The article is probably from the pen of a bureaucrat-minded, bigoted, besotted nonentity, the Canadian pocket edition of Harry Hopkins. It is on the word "blokes", which I have used in the past and which I will use again. I want to give my own definition of the word and what I mean by it when I utter it. It is quite different from the dictionary meaning. Whenever I use that word in the future everybody will understand what I mean.
Here is the article:
The word "blokes," which is not very familiar to English-speaking Canadians, has come into popularity with certain French Canadians as an uncomplimentary designation for Englishmen-probably in much the same way as "Boches" came to be applied to the Germans.
That is false. The article continues, speaking of the member for Temiscouata:
He is entitled to that view, but we do not think he is entitled to express it in the House of Commons in language of carefully calculated insult.
This is untrue. I do not call a "bloke" a man who is necessarily born anywhere outside of Canada. The word "bloke" applies to everyone, born anywhere, who is stupid enough to consider Canada a lemon to squeeze.

[Stage Direction]
First and final report of special committee on the operations of the atomic energy control board.-Mr. Mcllraith.


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: I should like to lay on the table copies in English and French of the letter
addressed yesterday to the premiers of the provinces with respect to the proposed conference on the procedure for amendments to the British North America Act. As was done on previous occasions, I imagine that hon. members would wish to have this letter printed as an appendix to Hansard.
Hon. members will note that in addition to this conference for the purpose of advising on a method of making in Canada amendments to the constitution, the government of Canada is proposing to the premiers of the provinces that there be another dominion-provincial conference after the next session, and that the preparatory work on such a conference be undertaken as soon as possible.


Mr. Speaker:: Is it the pleasure of the house that the letter appear as an appendix to Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.
(For text of further correspondence, see appendix, page 2976.)


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Hon. L. B. Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs):: Mr. Speaker, during the debate on external affairs on November 17, I said that Canada would be represented by a minister at the important forthcoming meeting of commonwealth ministers of external affairs to take place in Colombo, Ceylon, beginning January 9. I am now in a position to state that the government has decided that the Secretary of State for External Affairs should head the Canadian delegation to this conference.
The Minister of Fisheries, who will be representing Canada at the meeting of the governing body of the international labour organization at Mysore, India, at the beginning of January, will also, I hope, be available to attend the Colombo conference if the labour conference finishes in time.
The advisers to the Canadian delegation to the Colombo conference will consist of the deputy under-secretary, Mr. Reid; the head of the Far Eastern division of the department, Mr. Menzies; and Mr. Lepan, of the economic division of the department.
It has been arranged that the newly appointed Canadian high commissioner to Pakistan, Mr. Johnson, will travel with the

Questions
delegation to Colombo en route to his post, and will also act as an adviser. A senior official of the Department of Trade and Commerce will accompany the delegation, because we hope to take advantage of our presence in Karachi, New Delhi and Colombo to explore the possibilities of increased trade between Canada and Pakistan, India and Ceylon.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
^REPORTS ON PERSONS RESIDENT IN CANADA
['It is just all talk; that is all it is.']
Mr. Coldwell:: Are any reports on persons resident in Canada given confidentially, or otherwise, by the R.C.M.P. to private citizens, companies or corporations?


Mr. Garson:: Mr. Speaker, this question is rather wide in its scope. I conferred with the hon. member who asked it, and he has agreed to substitute for the question on the order paper the following:
Does the Royal Canadian Mounted Police make a practice of providing reports upon the request of employers as to the character of persons seeking employment with such employers?
The answer is no.



Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	What is the total number of employees of the national film board who have ceased to be employed by, or under, the national film board, since the first of January, 1949?
2.	Of these, how many have been transferred to, or have secured employment in, other departments or agencies of government?


Mr. Winters:: In answering a similar question orally yesterday, and from memory, when my estimates were under consideration, I said, as to employees who left the board this year, that the number was 61. Actually the number is 67.
The answer to the question of the hon. member for Lake Centre follows:
1.	Sixty-six appointed under authority of the National Film Act; one appointed under authority of the Civil Service Act.
2.	Eight have been employed by other departments or agencies of government.


Mr. Fraser:: The minister has corrected a statement he made in committee of supply yesterday having to do with the subject matter of this question on the order paper. He says the number should be 67, instead of 61 as he stated yesterday. Does that also change the number that have been transferred to other departments, which is given as eight?


Robert Henry Winters: No.


POTATOES
Mr. Hatfield:: 1.	How many bushels of (a) Irish potatoes; (b) certified seed potatoes, were exported to the United States each year from 1940 to date?
2.	How many bushels of (a) table potatoes; (b) seed potatoes, were imported from the United States during each of the years from 1940 to date?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1. Exports to	United States:	
	Table	Certified
	potatoes	seed potatoes
Calendar year	Bu.	Bu.1940 	... 621,790	911,8511941 	... 229,336	676,5001942 	. . . 7,798	878,4731943 	. . . 63,646	1,056,6221944 	. . . 3,460,971	1,995,5601945 	. . . 3,433,319	2,163,4771946 	. . . 166,319	2,057,9841947 	. .. 2,859,284	2,216,4971948 	. . . 1,967,797	4,331,707Jan. 1 to Oct.	31,	1949 	. . . 1,073,964	4,713,1632. Imports from United States:	Table	Certifiedpotatoes seed potatoes	Calendar year	Bu.	Bu.1940 	. .. 994,338	2,3571941 	
552,648	1,1101942 	... 671,408	3351943 	... 1,053,012	2,6071944 	. . . 348,220	5,7001945 	
3,312,675	11,6331946 	... 5,409,588	34,4921947 	
642,167	3,5671948 	
338,053	1,592Jan. 1 to Oct.	31,	1949 	
519,505	3,260


BRIDGE BETWEEN ALLUMETTE ISLAND, QUE., AND NORTH RENFREW, ONT.
Mr. Proudfoot:: Have any representations been made to the government by the government of the province of Ontario or by the government of the province of Quebec, asking for an interprovincial bridge between Allumette Island, Quebec, and North Renfrew, Ontario?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: No.


URANIUM
Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, on the orders of the day on Tuesday, December 6, the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) asked for a statement as to reports on the dispatch of uranium from Canada to Soviet Russia. I can now answer that question.

Uranium
A search of the files of the Department of Munitions and Supply and the files of Eldorado Gold Mines Limited, the predecessor company of Eldorado Mining and Refining (1944) Limited, reveals the following facts:
On May 6, 1943, Eldorado Gold Mines Limited received an inquiry from their New York selling agent, Canadian Radium and Uranium Corporation, reporting an order from Chematar Incorporated, a firm of reputable New York exporters, for 500 pounds of black uranium oxide and 500 pounds of uranium nitrate. The inquiry reported that the destination of the material would be Soviet Russia, where it would be used for purposes connected with the prosecution of the war against nazi Germany; that the black uranium oxide would be used for ferro-uranium compounds, which in turn would be used in the production of armaments; and that the uranium nitrate would be used for medical purposes.
Eldorado Gold Mines Limited, which was then a privately-owned company, applied to the arms export permit branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce for a permit for the export of this material to the United States. This was granted by the zinc control branch of the metals controller on May 11, 1943, after it had been determined in the meantime that an export licence from the United States bureau of economic warfare had been issued.
The invoice of the material indicates that 500 pounds of black uranium oxide was billed at $1,275 and 500 pounds of uranium nitrate at $1,180, making a total billing of this material of $2,455.
The material was shipped on May 22, 1943, to Colonel A. N. Kotikov, resident representative of the Soviet government purchasing commission, air service depot of the air transport command, Gore Field, Great Falls, Montana, U.S.A. Payment for the shipment was deposited to the account of Eldorado Gold Mines at the Royal Bank of Canada, New York. The documents covering this shipment appear to be all in order.
Since its mining operations commenced, Eldorado had been producing uranium as a by-product of radium, which was the product of commercial interest at that time. Uranium was being sold for a number of uses through ordinary commercial channels. It was natural, therefore, that the order to which I have referred was treated as normal in both Canada and the United States of America.
At this time, 1943, only a very few persons -very few indeed-knew that experiments in the use of atomic energy for weapons purposes were proceeding. Those who did know, however, realized the wisdom of not calling
attention, by refusing to fill commercial orders, to uranium as a material suitable for any use other than the commercial uses to which it had been put for many years-uses such as those stated for the shipment in question.
It will also be remembered that in 1943 we were at the very height of the war against nazi Germany. Naturally it was then the policy of all the western allies to render any help possible to the Soviet union in the gigantic war struggle which that country was waging, with its allies, against the nazis.
I should add that, as atomic energy research developed, uranium became valuable, of course, for weapons purposes. In 1944, therefore, the Canadian government expropriated Eldorado Gold Mines Limited, in order to acquire closer control of this new strategic mineral.
After the acquisition of the property, Mr. Grant Glassco, of the firm of Clarkson, Gordon, Dilworth and Nash, was appointed by the government as a commissioner to examine into the affairs of Eldorado Gold Mines and the successor crown company, and was instructed particularly to look for irregularities in the shipment of radium and uranium.
Mr. Glassco's investigation revealed nothing to suggest that, in disposing of radioactive substances acquired by them, Eldorado and its agents dealt with customers other than the United States government and the ordinary buyers and users of these substances in Canada and the United States. A close check of the files shows no evidence of any shipment from Canada being re-exported other than the shipment I have just mentioned. .


Mr. Green:: After I had asked the question the other day the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked a supplementary question in which he said:
Two years ago the Minister of Trade and Commerce undertook to table the investigator's report in the Eldorado investigation. I would suggest that that be brought to the minister's attention, with a view to having it tabled because of its particular interest at the moment, having regard to the evidence that is being given in Washington.
Would the minister be willing to table the report?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have had Hansard examined to see what I did say. I find that on March 24, 1947, on the order for the production of papers as reported at page 1657, the hon. member for Lake Centre moved that a copy of the evidence taken in connection with the investigation of Eldorado Gold Mines Limited and an alleged conspiracy by French, Pochon and Pregel to defraud the said company,

Inquiries of the Ministry and the report by the commissioner in connection therewith, be tabled. I said that the report was not yet in the hands of the government, but in any event from inquiries I had made "it could not be tabled, for the reason that it contains information which is of a secret character affecting other governments as well as the government of Canada". That is the position today.


Howard Charles Green: That is the position still taken by the government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


ELECTRIC POWER
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. Church (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker,
I have a question which I might have raised as a question of privilege. I am addressing it to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the statement made in this morning's issue of the Globe and Mail and in other newspapers I would ask him these questions:
First, has the government any further information on the development of power in the Niagara river? Officials say that nothing has happened there since 1920 or 1922.
Second, what hopes are there for the ratification of any treaty separately? The treaty with respect to additional power at Niagara was before the house in 1922 and 1923. Has the attention of chief officials of the government been called to a statement by chief officials of the Hydro Electric Power Commission of Ontario, who have been asking ratification of this for twenty months? A spokesman for the Hydro Electric Power Commission of Ontario has said that the report made in the house yesterday is erroneous; one of them went so far as to say-and used a word which I do not think should have been used-that it was "silly".
Is there any change in the international section of the St. Lawrence river regarding the use of power, either separately or in conjunction with the seaway plan? Will any further information be forthcoming before the session ends on these important matters? -because, as I said yesterday, no doubt blackouts are due in Ontario and in other places owing to the scarcity of power. Nothing has been done in the matter whatsoever. The Secretary of State for External Affairs should make a statement about it.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Speaker, at the present time there is nothing I can usefully add to what I said in this matter yesterday.


However I shall look into the questions raised by the hon. member and see whether a supplementary answer might be made tomorrow, or during the consideration of my estimates.


Thomas Langton Church: It is just all talk; that is all it is.



INQUIRY FOR RETURN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Howard Charles Green: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Mines and Resources. Some weeks ago I placed on the order paper a question having to do with the immigration branch, and concerning permits being given to persons of the Japanese race to return to Canada. On November 21 that question was made an order for return. On December 3 the Secretary of State (Mr. Bradley) said that the responsible official was away, but that the return would be brought down as soon as possible. The minister's estimates are to be called today. I wonder if it would be possible to have that return before the estimates are under consideration?


Hon. Colin Gibson (Minister of Mines and Resources):: Mr. Speaker, I have made
inquiries and understand that this return is about ready. It has taken some time to secure the information, because the Japanese admitted to Canada are screened over in Japan before they come here. There was some difficulty in getting answers as to the categories in which the Japanese should be placed. I shall try to bring down the return later in the day, if it is available.



INQUIRY AS TO CALLING OF COMMONWEALTH CONFERENCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Dufferin-Simcoe):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the rapidly diminishing market overseas, referred to especially the other day by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) in Brantford, would the government give consideration, at least before the calling of another session, to encouraging the taking of initial steps toward calling a British commonwealth trade conference?


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker-


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Wait for an answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The statement which preceded the question is one in which I cannot concur. I do not know of any rapidly diminishing market overseas. If there is any lack of trade, I suggest that at least we are having plenty of conferences.


William Earl Rowe: I suggest that the Minister of Trade and Commerce consult the Minister of Agriculture.


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: May I say to the hon. member that he might consult the report of the meeting. I did not include quite as much territory as he has referred to.


Mr. Casselman:: Quite a bit, though.



UNITED NATIONS

[Stage Direction]
Canada's vote as to international form of

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, how did Canada vote last Tuesday in the United Nations committee regarding a plan to give Jerusalem an international form of government? Has the government any announcement to make on the subject? In the event of Canada's supporting it, how will effect be given to it? What army will be assigned by Canada to it, either by voluntary recruiting or otherwise? Has this last-mentioned matter been considered by the government?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I believe the plan to which the hon. member is referring is that which was introduced into the United Nations by certain delegations for the establishment of an international form of government for the city of Jerusalem. There have been other plans, but I think this is the one to which the hon. member refers.
Concerning that particular plan before the political committee of the assembly, the Canadian delegation abstained. It abstained on the ground that it was not satisfied the plan could be carried out effectively. The plan was carried in the committee, and I believe is being voted on today in the general assembly of the United Nations.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
307. Departmental administration, $1,441,235.
Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Howard Charles Green: No. I should like to have a statement.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Mr. Smith (Calgary West):: I should like to have a statement on this from the minister. I do not even know what department it is until I get my estimates book open.
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Alphonse Fournier: Post Office.


The Chairman:: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Howard Charles Green: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Chairman, when you called the item first-


Joseph-Alfred Dion: I have called it three times.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: A page boy was standing in front of the minister and no one could hear. I am wondering if the Postmaster General is going to make a statement at this time-


Some hon. Members:: No.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: -because there have been a great many changes in this department.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Shall item 307 carry?


Some hon. Members:: No.


Hon. Edouard Rinfret (Postmaster General):: Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to make a statement.


Mr. Maclnnis:: I do not know whether my question should come under this item, but as I do not see any other item covering letter carriers I shall ask it now. I would draw the attention of the Postmaster General to the fact-


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That would come under item 308.


Mr. Bryce:: In the reorganization that has taken place in the Post Office Department, where some post offices have come under the civil service, is it only the postmaster who is so affected? What happens to the employees in the post office? Do they or do they not come under the civil service? Do they participate in superannuation?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: For the moment, it is only the postmaster.


William Scottie Bryce: Where there are two or three employees in a post office, is it intended to take them into the civil service so that they can participate in superannuation benefits?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The department has that in mind for future reference. There are still some postmasters to be taken in, and the others will just have to wait.


William Scottie Bryce: Is it the intention to have employees in the post offices come into the civil service?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: No decision has been made as yet.


Donald MacInnis: As I understand it, this applies to the revenue post offices, and in that case the only person recognized as an employee is the postmaster, who in turn hires what staff he needs at whatever terms may be convenient at the moment?

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Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The answer to the first part of the question is yes. The answer to the second part is no, because we control the terms and conditions of employment.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has any consideration been given to allowing mail to be carried free to the different veterans district offices? When these activities were concentrated in Ottawa a veteran could send his papers addressed to Ottawa without having to pay postage, but now that he has to send them to a district office he has to pay postage, and at times it is inconvenient for him to get to a post office to have his letter weighed.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That would not be permissible under the statute; there would have to be a change in the legislation.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the Postmaster General not think that to change the regulations would be a move in the right direction?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I will consider it.


Mr. Shaw:: There are a number of postmasters in Canada who have been operating on a straight commission basis and who are now being retired at sixty-five years of age. Has any provision been made to grant superannuation to those postmasters?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Since April 1, 1948, superannuation benefits have been available to postmasters in post offices with a revenue of over $3,000.


Frederick Davis Shaw: When a postmaster is retired, is the vacancy advertised in all cases?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: In the case of a post office with a revenue of over $3,000, the vacancy would be advertised through the civil service commission. Where an assistant has been in the employ of the department for more than fifteen years, he may be exempted from competing. In all cases notice is given to the Legion to submit any names of veterans they wish.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Is the assistant who has been in the service for more than fifteen years automatically appointed to the position?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: No. He may be exempted from competing if it is felt to be in the public interest to have him appointed.


Major James William Coldwell: Provided that he is qualified.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is right.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to ask the Postmaster General a number of general questions because he is new to the position and probably it would not be fair, but I should like to call his attention to certain conditions in the Toronto post office.

The revenue and surplus obtained by this department in Toronto is considerable. In
1946	it amounted to nearly $11 million, but then the cost of rural mail delivery was charged against the surplus revenue and in
1947	it dropped to a surplus of $8,773,000, and in 1948 to a surplus of $9,827,000.
In view of the large surplus, would it not be possible to pay something additional to the low-paid employees of the post office? Ten thousand extra employees will be taken on during the Christmas season to help deliver mail, and they should be paid at a proper rate. I can remember when the Minister of Public Works, along with the former postmaster general, Mr. Mulock, accompanied me on a tour of the Toronto terminal "A" post office in order to see the conditions under which the workers were sorting the mail. There is one large room there that is not really fit for human habitation.	There is hardly any ventilation.
Employees should not be asked to work under such intolerable conditions.
I should like to compare the postal revenue of Toronto with that of Montreal, the chairman's district. I admit that in Toronto considerable revenue is derived from the two large departmental stores, but, eliminating that factor, the postal receipts for Montreal are about $10,500,000 as compared with $16,500,000 for Toronto. Yet we have no post office in that city. There is a terminal "A" which was built by the old Grand Trunk and then taken over by the Canadian National Railways and used as the main post office.
I should like to direct the attention of the Postmaster General to the difficulty encountered when trying to buy postage stamps. Many people will be travelling this Christmas, and they should be able to buy stamps on the trains, or at least in the larger railway stations. Many soldiers will be going home for Christmas, and they should be able to let their people know that they are coming.
I should like to see some action taken to give the low-paid workers a better deal as to pay and working conditions. An effort should be made to improve their hours of labour and their working conditions. With the amount of second-class mail they have to handle, they all have humps on their backs. I have seen them delivering mail in the various districts of our city. The amount of second-class mail that must be delivered is an intolerable burden on the poor postman who has to go out in weather such as we are having at the present time. There should be some other way of making effective second-class delivery. I hope that the minister, if he gets an opportunity during

the recess, will come to Toronto and investigate the post office situation. He has a good deputy and other competent officials in the department. In fact I know of no department of the public service that has more support of the people than the post office.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: They deserve it.


Thomas Langton Church: Everybody likes to see the postman coming around. They have a very efficient staff.
I am sorry to say that in this country the post office has not assumed many of the functions which it discharges in England. For example, telephones are under the post office in that country. I hope that in his travels the minister will go over to England with his deputy and investigate the functions which have been added to the post offices in England, France and other countries. As a result the post office in England is a great public utility, and is giving wonderful service to the people, as the post office here is giving to Canada. I believe there should be better working conditions and salaries for the rank and file members of Canada's Post Office Department.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The number of extra persons employed throughout the country for the Christmas rush is not 10,000 but 25,000. So far as the situation in Toronto is concerned, if action is necessary, action will be taken. As a matter of fact I have an engagement to go to Toronto on the 12th of December, provided that parliament prorogues before that time, and the deputy minister will accompany me. I will see what the circumstances of the situation are, and if there is anything to be corrected, I certainly will correct it.


Mr. Knight:: I should like to ask a question or two about the holidays of postal employees. I am thinking now about the larger post offices where there are large groups of workers. Is there any uniform system throughout the country by which holidays are rotated, or do the post office staffs make their own arrangements in that regard?
While the minister is thinking about the answer, there are two or three other points which should be considered. It is obvious in an institution of this kind that all employees cannot get their holidays at the most favourable time of the year, which, in our part of the world, certainly would be June, July or August. There should be a system of rotation by which these favourable periods would be allotted to everybody in turn, irrespective of rank, seniority or position. A system of rotation would give every worker reasonable expectation of enjoying
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at least one good holiday every few years in terms of weather and the facilities dependent thereupon.
Then there is the question of changing of classes. I understand that in some post offices the holidays are arranged on the basis of classes of employees. A difficult position arises where a man is promoted. I do not know what the grades are, but let us say that a mail porter is promoted to the position of clerk. It seems to me that his promotion would upset the particular rotation. I wonder how that is handled. Would he automatically go to the bottom of the list in his new position?
Perhaps the minister will comment on the questions I have raised.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As to the question of holidays,
I presume the hon. member for Saskatoon is talking about annual leave. If that is the question, they must of necessity be spread over a period of time-actually over a period of nine months. The choice is made by seniority, senior members having a preference over others in the choice of the time of the year at which they wish to take their holidays.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Do they have such a preference every year?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Senior members, yes.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Every year?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is right; and it is done in accordance with the wish of the employees themselves. As to the second matter, the question is under review, in consultation with the employees.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I suggest that the wives and families of those at the bottom of the list on a seniority basis will hardly approve that regulation. I have heard there is some idea on the part of post office officials of changing the nine months' period to one of six months. I do not know whether there is a change of policy in view. The minister may be right when he says that the present system is the choice of the employees themselves, but I cannot conceive of such an arrangement being pleasant to most of them. Personally I do not think that rank or income should have any part in it. As a matter of fact those who enjoy higher incomes should be willing to give up these rights, because they can afford to maintain their wives and families at summer resorts, whereas the poorer employees cannot do so. There should be a system of rotation universally applied. When a senior employee has had his holidays in July, at a time when he can get the most enjoyment out of them, he should then go to the bottom of the list.

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Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed that the system was organized as a result of the unanimous wish of the employees. The question has to do with consultations we are having with the employees at the present time, and if they wish a change to be made in this connection, the matter certainly will be studied. It does not follow that because a senior member has a priority of choice for his vacation period, he will of necessity choose July or August. He might be a hunter, a fisherman, or a ski enthusiast, and might very well choose times suitable for the enjoyment of such recreations to take his vacation.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I suggest that ninety-five per cent of the people living in our climate would choose the summer months if they had a choice in the matter. The minister suggested that this was done as a result of the wish of the employees themselves. Does he mean the employees generally across Canada, or the employees in a particular unit, for instance, Winnipeg, Regina or Saskatoon?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It was the unanimous wish of all employee associations, and they are Canada-wide in scope.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: The word "unanimous" means one hundred per cent.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is right. Of course we do not know what discussions took place within the associations, but the end result is one hundred per cent representation to us by the associations.


Donald MacInnis: Following what the hon. member for Saskatoon has said, I should like to say a word on this subject, because I think I know the issue involved. I have been associated with workers who regarded seniority as a very important matter. The hon. member for Saskatoon said he thought that ninety per cent of the employees might want a change made. I would agree with him if as individuals we were always able to look at things from the point of view of the majority. Unfortunately we are so constituted that generally we look at things from our own point of view. For years I was employed by an organization where seniority prevailed, and that seniority meant that some men worked on the day shift and others worked on the night shift. While a man was on the night shift he was always in favour of what we called the swing shift, but the moment he got on days he insisted that seniority should prevail. That is what happens here. The post office employees are organized; they have their associations, and there they determine how these things should be done. I would be reluctant to have the

post office authorities make arbitrary decisions in these matters. In my opinion the best thing to do is leave it with the employees.


Mr. Cardiff:: We have a new Postmaster General now, and often that means some changes are made. Has the Postmaster General given any further consideration to the extension of rural mail delivery?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: These rural mail routes are being extended every week, almost every day. Applications are received, they are studied by the department, and whenever possible they are granted.


Thomas Langton Church: I forgot to include one question in my remarks. In view of the revenues of the department, is there any hope of going back to the one-cent rate for drop letters for city delivery and the two-cent rate anywhere in the dominion?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am afraid the answer would be that there is very little chance.


Mr. Brooks:: I wanted to ask the minister a question in connection with rural routes. I understand there is a regulation under which there must be four mail boxes to the mile, and that regulation works great hardship in many country districts. On the one hand you may have fairly populous sections; then there will be other sections in which only a few people live, all covered by the one rural route, which means that the average will not be four boxes to the mile. It seems to me this is an obsolete regulation; it has been in force for a good many years, and I believe the time has come when people in the country districts should have daily mail delivery. In view of the large surplus the post office had last year, amounting to some $10 million, I do not see why this regulation should not be changed and the whole system revised.
While I am on my feet I should like to ask a question in reference to the post office in the village of Rothesay. I mentioned this matter last year. The situation there is almost intolerable. Rothesay is one of the finest villages in the maritime provinces, but it has a post office which would be a disgrace to any country crossroad. There are two large private schools at that point, a boys' school and a girls' school, in addition to a consolidated school; the population of that part of the county is growing rapidly, and I do hope the department will look into the matter. There have been a number of complaints, but nothing has been done as yet.
I would ask the minister to give the matter attention.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As to the first question, increased costs have affected the Post Office Department just as much as they have affected other departments, and the various extensions of service that have been given have quickly diminished our surplus. It is not, as the hon. member said, a surplus of $10 million; it has been diminished to $2 million.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The surplus last year was $10 million.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Yes, but this year it is only $2 million. If we grant too many extensions we may very well find ourselves in the red next year. As to the second question, I shall study the case of the post office the hon. member has mentioned.


Mr. Higgins:: I have three questions to direct to the minister. As he will remember, I have had some correspondence with him in connection with the special stenographic allowance of $5 a month, which affects some 200 stenographers in the Post Office Department. On October 21 he advised me that he was going to discuss the matter with the civil service commission to see if something could be done.
The second question has to do with the carriage of mail by the ships of the C.N.R. around the coast of Newfoundland. I understand the present situation is that the mail is carried by crew members in their off-watch hours, in other words in their free time. Often a man will have to carry a bag of mail on his back for a mile or two, and I do not believe any provision has been made for compensation. Perhaps the minister could tell me whether the matter is being discussed, or what is the position.
The third question has to do with a comparatively minor matter, that is, the post office at Holyrood, as to which the minister will remember we had some correspondence. On November 11 I asked him for some information, but the matter probably slipped his mind. On November 8 he said he would inform me when an appointment was made, and since that time I have learned that an appointment was made on November 1. I was further informed that the appointment was made upon my recommendation, though certainly there was no recommendation of any kind made by me. I do not know how appointments in connection with these small post offices are made generally, but in our province they used to be more or less given to people who needed the little income obtained from operating the post office and supplying the service. In this case, however, I understand the appointment went to the
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wife of a wealthy merchant in the village of Holyrood, so I would certainly like to keep my skirts clear in that matter.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As to the special stenographic compensation, that was disallowed or abolished, not only in the Post Office Department but in all departments, under an order in council passed September 21, 1949, effective October 1, 1949. We have made certain representations to the civil service commission in that regard, but up to the present there has been no change in that policy.
As to the second question, I may tell the hon. member that the matter is under active consideration and an answer will be forthcoming in due course.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Then may I say that compensation will be given these crew members?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I did not say that; I said we were considering the matter.
As to the third question, I am sorry I do not remember the circumstances in connection with the post office at Holyrood, but I shall have it checked and see what can be done.


Mr. Hansell:: I want to ask the minister a question with respect to post office accommodation in two localities. I am well aware that the construction of new post office buildings comes under the Minister of Public Works, but I believe that post office accommodation generally is initiated through the Postmaster General. First I should like to ask about post office accommodation at Coleman, Alberta?
During the war years application was made for better post office accommodation. At that time the reason given for not providing such accommodation was that, because of the war, materials were scarce and perhaps skilled labour was unobtainable, and as a result the government were not carrying on any extensive construction. I believe that was a good reason. But within the last few weeks the application has been made again. Perhaps it is a little too soon to ask what progress has been made in that respect. I should be happy to follow up this discussion with documentary memoranda to the minister, but I know that he has been written to by the board of trade, and perhaps others. I understand the process is that application is made to the minister. Perhaps there are inspectors sent from the department, then recommendations are passed on to the Department of Public Works, and, from there on, something is either done or not done. Can the minister indicate what progress has been made in that respect?
While I am on my feet I wish to ask a second question; it is in respect to post office

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accommodation at Nanton, Alberta. I should like to know what progress is being made there. The minister may have seen a return that was brought down in the house about a month ago in regard to that matter. I am not going to elaborate on it. The return did not show a pleasant picture as to negotiations respecting accommodation over the past few years at Nanton. The final result, however, is that the present postmaster was told to furnish better accommodation. That was the understanding. Does the minister care to say what progress has been made in that regard?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The first question has to do with the post office at Coleman. The revenue of that office is $15,410 a year. At Nanton it is $9,300. I might tell the hon. member for Macleod that the situation about which he has just spoken is not restricted to those two places; it is general throughout the dominion. The department is greatly concerned about it, because it hampers our operations throughout Canada. There is a big backlog of construction to be undertaken. We have adopted the practice of recommending to the Department of Public Works the construction of buildings in places where the revenue is over $10,000. Among those offices a priority has been established in the public works department. We are pushing the construction of these post offices as much as we possibly can, because every building constructed will help us in our service. Beyond that I do not care to go.


Ernest George Hansell: I will say just a further word with respect to the post office at Coleman. The situation is serious. The building is not adequate; it is extremely old, and there are not enough post boxes. While the minister says that the Coleman office has a revenue of around $15,000, the population of Coleman is over 4,000. Application has been made. I will follow it up with a letter to the minister. I wish that he would give every possible consideration to Coleman. With respect to Nanton, I will not ask a question but I will urge the minister to see that the plans that are now ready are speeded up as much as possible.
I have a question on another matter. Will the minister inform the committee what the procedure is with respect to contracts or agreements for the printing of postage stamps? Does that come under the Post Office Department, or under the Department of Finance? I believe there are several engraving companies. What is the procedure? Are tenders asked for? On what basis are contracts let?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It comes under the Minister of Finance, but we are consulted as to the

printing of the stamps. The printing of postage stamps is provided for by contract. The duration of the current agreement with the manufacturer, the Canadian Bank Note Company, is from October 5, 1948 to March 31, 1950.


Ernest George Hansell: For the printing of postage stamps they are carried over a period of time?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is right-under contract.


Ernest George Hansell: How did they get the contract? Did they make a bid? Does the other company also make a bid?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Public tender.


Mr. Gillis:: I did not intend to question the minister about the construction of post offices, but as he himself has referred to the matter, there is a question I should like to ask him. In the public works estimates in the last session of the last parliament the Minister of Public Works had an estimate of $35,000 for a building in the town of Dominion, Nova Scotia, to replace an inadequate building. Replacement of this building has been promised over the last ten years, but nothing has been done. I understand that an official of the department looked over a building that might be purchased. I do not know how true this is, but I have been informed that local patronage skulduggery has prevented the spending of that $35,000 to improve the service there. Does the minister know anything about it?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The revenue from the
Dominion office is $3,854. It is therefore not a project that the Post Office Department will recommend. The building he refers to is probably a public works project. If public works erects a building and offers us some space, of course we will take it, but it is not at the initiative of the Post Office Department that the building is being erected, if there is one being erected.


Clarence Gillis: That is quite right. The public works department did their part. They made the appropriation of $35,000 to build that post office.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: And other things.


Clarence Gillis: If they are to build a post office, the building then belongs to the minister's department. It was to be built exclusively for the purpose of providing his department with adequate facilities in that particular town.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Was there to be only a post office.


Clarence Gillis: 
Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: In any event they would keep the title to the property. It does not pass to the Post Office Department.


Clarence Gillis: I do not care who has the title. What I am concerned about is the performance of the service, and why that $35,000 has not been spent for the purpose for which it was intended.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am afraid the hon. member will have to ask the Minister of Public Works.


Clarence Gillis: I intend to do so.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: In the estimates this year for the town of Dominion there is a vote of $25,000 for a public building, not a post office.


Clarence Gillis: He has cut it down $10,000. You fellows were slow. You should have got that money spent and had this post office building constructed. I had no intention of raising the question with the minister; but when I heard him answer questions asked by the hon. member for Macleod with regard to the construction of buildings, I thought I might as well find out what he knows about this particular case.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How is it that the town of Dominion, in Cape Breton, with a revenue of only $4,000, can get a post office, and the village of Rothesay, with a revenue of twice that amount, cannot get one?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As I have just said to the hon. member for Cape Breton South, it is not a post office building; it is a public building put up by public works, for some purpose of which I am not aware.


Mr. McLure:: Mr. Chairman, like many ather hon. members I regret that the Postmaster General did not make a statement. It would have saved a great deal of time when we are hurrying to get through his estimates. Had he made a statement he could have given us post office policy, but now we have to dig in and ask a hundred and one questions. However, in his wisdom he did not see fit to make a statement; therefore we shall have to extract from him, by the best means possible, the information we require.
One thing I did not know is that post office revenue had shrunk and that the net profit had dropped from $13 million to about $2 million. I cannot say that that is owing to a reduction in postage rates. A few years ago postal rates were raised 33J per cent. The letter rate was raised from three to four cents, and that increase is still with us. I would not urge that the rate be reduced 33J per cent and put back to where it was before if the money were used to give rural mail couriers a decent living wage.
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There are a number of things that I wish to draw to the attention of the Postmaster General. The first is what I understand to be the new policy of the department in calling for tenders in the rural mail districts. I do not know whether I am properly informed, but I understand that before a man can tender on a rural mail route he must have certain equipment-and some of it is expensive-to carry on the work. Is this so? Has the policy changed in that regard?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Has the hon. member any more questions?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Yes, twenty-five more.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The answer to the first question is that the revenue of the post office has not shrunk as the hon. member for Queens has just asserted. What is true is that we have been giving better service, and that therefore our costs have increased in comparison with the revenue. Our costs having increased, of course our profit is less. We have absorbed the increased costs instead of asking for an increase in postal rates.
So far as rural mail is concerned, there is no new basis. It is true that in certain contracts a certain kind of equipment is required, but that is not new policy. It has always been that way, because we want to be sure that whoever gets the contract is equipped to carry it out.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Either the minister is right or I am right, or we are both wrong. I hold in my hand a copy of a mail contract which reads: "Sealed tenders will be addressed . . ." and so on . . . "to the Postmaster General." It goes on and gives a list of the mileage, where to call, and so on. Then there is this vital part: "Any tenders submitted must be with the clear understanding that this service is to be performed by a truck in summer and a snowmobile in the wintertime." That is certainly new policy.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: What is the service to which the hon. member is referring?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Rural mail route No. 3, in Queens county, a distance of twenty-one miles. Just imagine asking a man, before he can expect to get a contract, to provide himself with a truck and a snowmobile! It is not possible to buy these vehicles at less than $4,500 or $4,000. The department is asking a man to provide himself with equipment at a cost of $4,000 to tender for a job on which he can get only $1,000 a year for four years, and then he would have to tender over again. It seems to me to be a ridiculous policy. If that is to be the policy, the department will have to provide the mail couriers with this equipment and charge them a rental. How

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can you expect a mail courier to pay $4,500 for equipment to run a service out of which he gets only $1,000 a year for four years? There is no guarantee of anything. That is driving the rural mail couriers to a pretty hard decision if they are to tender.
There is another thing with reference to tendering that I think is a new policy, and it is this. Suppose a man has had a contract- and I can give the names of a couple of men who have had contracts for from ten years to thirty years and have given the best of service. No civil servants in any part of Canada could give better service than the service that these men have given, and I can mention their names. They have worked all through the years at a salary or indemnity which was not giving them a livelihood. Now they are getting a little older, and what happens? When they ask for a little more for the mail route-and I do not believe anybody else would tender against them-the department says that it is too high in comparison with other mail routes. That is not much of an argument when some of the other mail routes are not paying a living wage. The question then arises, what is the man to do? Instead of the department making some compromise with him, as I think it should do, and give him a chance, it scouts around and finds some veteran who is getting a small pension of $300 or $400 a year, and says to him: You can tender at $300 or $400 less than the regular contract man. I have no objection to veterans getting the contracts, but I do object to a veteran having to use his small pension to tender in opposition to the other man. The Postmaster General should clear up that matter.
1 should now like to refer to our own post office in Charlottetown. Prince Edward Island was the ninth province. Now there are ten. It is an island province, and it is entitled to whatever consideration is given to the other provinces of Canada in the way of transportation, postal accommodation or anything else. We are not rated as a province at all.
Under the new set-up the department has put in a regional controller, and that is all right. This regional controller is situated at Moncton. But under the regional controller there is a district director of postal services. One of these is located at Saint John and the other at Halifax. We should have a district director in Charlottetown, where we have a good post office staff. But no; we are attached to New Brunswick. I do not know what Newfoundland is going to be attached to, whether it will be with Nova Scotia or will have its own district director of postal services.

I should like to know why our province is not treated properly in this regard. Prince Edward Island should have a district director of postal services. Of late years under this government we have become accustomed to that type of treatment. A year ago it took away from our city the branch of the Bank of Canada. However, we have forced them to the point where they are going to put it back. The government has also placed the headquarters of the Bank of Canada, as it affects Prince Edward Island, in New Brunswick. It has also taken away from us the head of the fruits and vegetables branch, and placed that centre in Saint John, New Brunswick.
I say we should not stand for it any longer. We should be told whether we are to have a district director of postal services in Prince Edward Island, to which we are entitled. Any important postal business in our province must pass through the Charlottetown post office, then to the district director, and then on to the regional controller at Moncton. From there it goes to Ottawa before any decision can be made in any matter of vital importance in connection with our postal service. I hope the Postmaster General will look carefully into this matter with a view to giving us better treatment.
The attention of the Postmaster General has been called to the fact that in the post office at Charlottetown there is a position known as the vendor of postage stamps. It is one worthy of some consideration, especially at the present time. The man who has been in charge of the office for the last forty-nine years, Mr. Aubrey F. Brown, has been one of the best public servants to be found anywhere. He accepted his position under contract on November 13 forty-nine years ago. He is now in his fiftieth year of service. His contract was for the sale of postage stamps, cards and the like, and was made under an agreement with the government of that day.
This man has continued his work without one complaint. His hours are long; I do not know why the authorities have made him work such long hours. Under his contract he must go to work at eight o'clock in the morning and must keep his office open until eight o'clock in the evening, with no time for lunch or dinner. If he leaves for any length of time, or is ill, he must employ and pay for assistance. This is certainly contrary to all the labour laws of this or any other country. He has three days' holidays throughout the year. It would seem that the postal department are endeavouring to get rid of him and to handle postage stamps through the main office, at

which point they will have to hire two clerks to do the same work. This will give employment to two people and throw one out of employment.
The procedure of getting rid of this man seems peculiar. His contract calls for two per cent on all sales of postage stamps, cards and the like in that postal area. A few years ago when he applied for a higher rate he was told that he could not have it, because the contract called for only two per cent on all sales. At this time, however, the postal department are putting in meter machines. It may be said that for the businessman these machines are more efficient, but when this man suggested that he should receive his two per cent on the amount handled by the machine, which has reduced his income by over fifty per cent, he was ;old he could not have it. The postal department take all the revenue and do not allow aim the two per cent to which his contract, signed by the postal department, entitles him.


Mr. Lennard:: That is not a contract.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: It was a contract when it was drawn, but it has never been renewed. The contract is broken when they want to [DOT]elieve him of his job. The desire seems to )e to put in two clerks to do the work he has leen doing for so long without complaint. \fter all those years of service, in view )f the small wages he was able to make-and t was all on a commission basis of two per sent, with some lean years-he is just able
0	make a living. He has always had to smploy an assistant for an hour at noon and in hour and a half in the evening, and this las taken a considerable portion of his evenue. I hope that some arrangement can >e made by which he can be retired on a small >ension. It may be said that he is not a sivil servant. But there is still no reason vhy the government should not make some illowance for his service of fifty years. I vould ask the Postmaster General and his issistants to take this into consideration so bat some satisfactory settlement may be made.
There are other matters I shall discuss later, iut with one of them I will deal now. It vas suggested to the postmaster general vho held office three years ago that a com-nittee be set up to study rural mail problems, 'he Postmaster General's reply to that, as eported on page 360 of Hansard of February 2, 1947, was as follows:
1	have no objection to having a committee con-ider this matter in an effort to improve the service.
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In the following year, in reply to a question asked by myself, the minister stated, as reported on page 1039 of Hansard of February 10, 1948:
It is not the intention of the government to establish a committee, but as I said before, a bill will be brought in to give authority to make further supplementary payments.
The Postmaster General might indicate whether at the next session he will set up a committee to study the problem of the rural mail courier. It is a problem that needs consideration.
The hon. member for St. John's East referred to the reduction of $5 a month in stenographers' salaries. According to the Postmaster General that reduction took place right across Canada. I should like to know if the government authorized it.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Replying to the question relating to rural route No. 3, Queens county, and the matter of necessary equipment, the department does not establish what equipment is required; that is left to the inspector to determine. The department insists that service shall be given under all circumstances, that the mail must be delivered every day. At times the contract requires that snowmobiles be part of the equipment available so that the mail may be delivered without delay.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Has the department one contract containing a condition of that kind?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: There are quite a number of contracts in which the notices for tenders required that snowmobiles be provided. It might be that when a man makes his tender he has not a snowmobile, and I can quite understand that he would not purchase one before actually getting a contract. But no one has been prevented from getting a contract provided he can satisfy the department that he can acquire a snowmobile as part of the necessary equipment.
As to the men who have had contracts for ten and thirty years, I am sorry I have not the names. If the hon. member will supply me with the names, I shall have the matter investigated. I might say that as far as contracts are concerned, veterans have no priority. Also the amount of tender is not disclosed.
A complaint is made by the hon. member that there is no director located at Charlottetown. Directors are not appointed for each provincial district. We try to see that the directors are kept busy, and as the director in that part of the country would not have sufficient work from just one province, he is given jurisdiction over more than the one

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province. It is said that the post office inspector at Charlottetown must go to the director, then to another man and then to Ottawa, but that is not so. The post office inspector at Charlottetown has authority to deal directly with the department if he wishes to do so.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What is the need of having a director?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: We have to be kept informed in a general way of what is being done.
With regard to the stamp vendor, Mr. Brown has been a vendor of stamps for the last forty-nine years under a contract. He is not an employee of the government, and therefore we do not regulate the hours he keeps. His contract calls for certain things, and he is the one who is the employer.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Who signed the contract?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It was signed forty-nine years ago. I have not seen it.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Whom was it between?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I have not seen the contract. I do not know.


Frank Exton Lennard: It is the general contract.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Is it a contract between the Post Office Department and the vendor?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed that actually there is no contract, that he is just allowed to continue as is.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I beg leave to say that there is a contract. There was a contract when he got the position, and the Post Office Department must have it somewhere in its archives.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed that there was a contract, but it has not been renewed, that he is allowed to continue as is. Complaint is made about the remuneration he receives, but there would have to be a change in the legislation to correct that situation. Section 7, paragraph (o) of the Post Office Act reads:
. . . (o) grant licences to agents other than postmasters, for the sale to the public of postage stamps and stamped envelopes, and allow to such agents a commission not exceeding two per centum of the amount of their sales.
The vending machine to which the hon. member refers was put in to take care of the Christmas rush, and will be taken out in January. As this man is under contract, I do not think the question of pension can be considered for a minute. He is not an employee of the government, and I do not think a pension scheme could be evolved in that connection.
With regard to the reduction in stenographic pay, I have just drawn the attention of the hon. member to order in council 19/4847,

passed on September 21, 1949, to be effective October 1. I think about 200 of a total staff in the Post Office Department of about 42,000 were affected.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I was under the impression from a letter I received that the civil service commission had ordered this reduction.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The civil service commission recommended it.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: It is now established that the government made the reduction. The minister says that according to law they can pay this stamp vendor only two per cent, but I would ask him to note that he is taking away from him fifty per cent of his revenue by the use of the meter machine. Not only is that so in the post office; the larger firms are being induced to put them in. This stamp vendor is entitled to two per cent on the sales indicated by the meter machine.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The authority given to the Postmaster General is to issue a licence. It is not an exclusive licence; it is a licence for the sale of postage stamps to the public.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: He had that licence under his contract.


Mr. Fleming:: There is one question I should like to ask the minister about rural mai] boxes. As I understand it, at the present time they are purchased by the department from one source and are sold to or put at the disposal of persons on rural mail routes. 1 am also informed that the department does not permit persons on rural mail routes tc have other mail boxes, or to purchase boxes from other sources, even though other boxes may comply in all respects with the specifications followed in the case of boxes furnished by the department. I should like to ask the minister whether this monopolistic arrangement prevails, and, if so, why persons on rura: mail routes should not be at liberty tc purchase boxes for their own use from any source they choose, provided that they comply with the specifications that apply to boxes furnished through the department.
I am told that this rigidity on the par of the department prevents people from having anything more ornamental in the way of a mail box, and that highway authorities in Ontario, in the case of some of the nev improved highways, have felt that the boxes in use, furnished by the department, are no very ornamental. May I ask the minister foi a statement on this matter?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The hon. member for Eglintor has given only one side of the case; we mus also look at the other side. People could pu up all sorts of makeshift boxes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I expressly said that whateve: is done must, of course, comply with thi

specifications of the department in relation to the box. All I am saying is that when anyone is prepared to comply with the specifications of the department in the case of his own box, there should not be any requirement that the boxes must all come from one particular source.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed that the complaints about the boxes really resolved themselves into suggestions regarding the supports. Certain gentlemen visited the office yesterday, and an arrangement is being worked out so that it will be taken care of.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Am I to conclude then, that so far as the department is concerned there is nothing to prevent someone else from supplying mail boxes to persons on rural routes, provided that they comply with the specifications laid down by the department as to the type of mail box that is now in use?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: We cannot possibly do that. There must be uniformity in the boxes throughout, and if we allow an exception in one direction we will have to authorize it in the other direction. We want our boxes to be uniform, and not makeshift. One way or the other it is the same thing.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Does that mean the boxes must all be purchased from the same source?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The answer is yes.


Donald Methuen Fleming: That is a monopolistic
arrangement.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The post office is probably the biggest monopoly in Canada.


Frank Exton Lennard: If that is so, in my own district I have seen about half a dozen different sizes and types of boxes that have been provided by the department.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: In different years.


Frank Exton Lennard: There is nothing uniform about them at all.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: We are not going to ask people to change their boxes every time there is a change in the type. At the present time we have a new type of box which I believe will hold twice as much as the old one. We are not going to force all the users of boxes to change the ones they have already purchased.


Donald MacInnis: Following the question about a monopoly in the making of the boxes by one particular firm, will the Postmaster General tell the committee whether the price that the resident pays for the box is also stipulated?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The answer is yes. There is no monopoly, because it is under contract,
45781-185J
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and before the contract is let, tenders are called for. The contract awarded is to the lowest tenderer.


Mr. Major:: What is the normal price charged for these boxes?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Four dollars.


William Joseph Major: Would that price compete with anything people could make themselves?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: If a person made one box I imagine it would cost much more than the department would pay per box for the manufacture of thousands.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: This is the time of year when a good many people are sending food parcels overseas, chiefly to Great Britain. I am well aware there is a special rate on such parcels. In the first place, I should like to ask what the difference is between the rates applying to recognized Christmas food parcels and that applying to ordinary parcels?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The rates are as follows: Up to and including five pounds, 50 cents; up to and including ten pounds, $1; up to and including fifteen pounds, $1.50; up to and including twenty pounds, $2.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: My question concerned a comparison.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It is fifty cents less than the regular rate.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Perhaps that will help to console the man in the street, but sometimes he does not realize he is getting a special rate on these parcels. The point to which I want to draw the Postmaster General's attention is that the rates for such food parcels are set in five-pound divisions. For instance, I mailed a package the other day which I estimated to weigh about five pounds. Unfortunately it was five pounds five ounces, and therefore I had to pay the ten-pound rate for what was virtually a five-pound parcel. As I say, the man in the street does not appreciate that, and perhaps does not appreciate he is getting a cheaper rate on that particular type of parcel.
Is the five-pound idea merely a convenient figure to divide or multiply by? Was it chosen for that reason, or is there another reason why five-pound divisions were selected? I would not mind so much paying a rate for six pounds on a five pounds-five ounces parcel, but it seems to me it is too. much to pay double for a small parcel. Could the divisions not be in single pounds rather than five pounds? If one has a parcel that is an ounce or two over fifteen pounds, he pays the twenty-pound rate. Possibly the cheaper rate justifies that, and possibly not; but the people who are sending these parcels

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would much rather put the money expended on postage for the extra five pounds into additional food than give it to the department for not doing any work.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: These rates have been fixed in agreement with the British authorities. As to fixing another limit for the packages, let us take six pounds; the same thing will still happen if somebody has a package weighing six pounds one ounce. We will be in the same position. We have to fix a certain poundage and not go beyond it, because there would be no use in setting a limit of five pounds if we were to accept five and a half pounds or even five pounds one ounce. We have to fix a limit, and that limit has been set at five pounds, ten pounds, fifteen pounds and twenty pounds.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I was wondering why it had been fixed at five. Why not four, or six, or three?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is the arrangement we have with Britain.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: My own suggestion is that one pound would cover it.


Frederick Davis Shaw: An examination of the Post Office Department balance sheet indicates that in the past year it repeated its performance of previous years-that is, it piled up a considerable profit. In considering these profits we cannot be unmindful of the fact that the public works department bears a substantial burden so far as capital costs are concerned. The minister has not occupied his present office for very long, but I am sure that, like those who have preceded him as Postmaster General, he will be anxious to do everything possible to endear himself to the Canadian people. If he wishes to accomplish that purpose I suggest that a most effective way of doing so would be to recommend to the Minister of Finance, before the next session of parliament, that the four-cent postage rate be reduced by one cent. After all, that rate was increased during the war, and the minister might advise the Minister of Finance that the war has been over for some years. I am quite sure that if before the next session of parliament comes around the regular postage rate is reduced from four cents to three cents, it will meet with the general approval of the people.


Frank Exton Lennard: I want to ask the Postmaster General one or two questions in connection with alterations to public buildings in which post offices are located, referring particularly to a public building in my own constituency. Has the Post Office Department any planning experts who advise the Department of Public Works when these alterations are being made?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The department has an engineer, but unfortunately he also is very hard pressed at the present time.


Frank Exton Lennard: I ask that question because in the town of Dundas the government is spending between $30,000 and $40,000 on alterations to the public building in order to meet the needs of the Post Office Department. That is a two or three storey building, the second floor of which has been occupied for the past several years by the Veterans Land Act administration for that district. Now the post office needs more space, and that is why the alterations are being made. In the meantime I find that the Veterans Land Act administration is moving to Hamilton, and that the building in Dundas will revert to the condition it has been in for the last twenty-five years-that is, only half used.
There are several matters in connection with these alterations that I could mention, but the point is that the only steps necessary to make that additional space available to the post office would have been the installation of an elevator. Then the second floor of that building would have given all the space needed, and the people of Canada would have been saved more than $30,000. This is one project I feel was not fully considered, and in connection with which the planning was not properly done. Even after these alterations are carried out, the premises will be very unhandy from the point of view of the staff, and it seems to me if the postmaster had been consulted he could have offered suggestions which would have made these alterations much more satisfactory from the standpoint of both the staff and the public.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I shall bring that matter to the attention of our engineer and of my colleague the Minister of Public Works.


Mr. Calherwood:: What population must a town have before postal delivery service can be inaugurated?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: It is not a question of the population of a city; it is a question of how many people are to be served. Two thousand points of call are usually required, provided that conditions for delivery are satisfactory and other requirements are met.


A. Earl Catherwood: Then it is not on a population basis?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: No, it is not; it is the points of call.


Mr. Harris (Danforih):: We are now considering item No. 307, dealing with departmental costs and so on. I want to put on record in a few words a request on behalf of a community in the eastern part of Toronto which is not serviced by a post office as such,

but where the department is renting suboffices. In that fast growing section, which now has a population of about 200,000, we require adequate postal facilities. I do not expect the minister to give me a reply now, but I am asking the department to give that community the same consideration that was given west Toronto, where a public building was established on Keele street. I am not asking for this just because west Toronto was given that consideration, but because these facilities are needed in east Toronto.
I am asking the departmental officials if they will make a study of the situation in that community, which in the last quarter of a century has increased in population from 10,000 or 15,000 to well over 200,000, and to get together with the Minister of Public Works to see if those people cannot be given a dominion public building to provide accommodation for the Post Office Department and other departments of government such as customs, excise, immigration and so on. At the present time if an individual or business firm wants to clear post office parcels or to bring anything through customs, it is necessary to go almost ten miles down into the busy heart of the city of Toronto, clogging traffic and taking all day to do a chore which might be done in an hour if the facilities were available in that community. In the last two years we have had more than a hundred new factories in the area of which I speak, and about which the officials will know; and it is developing rapidly for the reason that industries have no other place to go; they must come to the eastern section of the city.
Without a long petition, which I could easily obtain, without bombarding the Post Office Department and the Department of Public Works with letters, I am making this request. All that is necessary, I think, is that a little common sense, good judgment and co-operation be shown by the officials of these two departments to see that this community, which is a city in itself, gets the facilities necessary if it is to conduct its business in a proper way.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As usual we shall use our best judgment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
308. Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices, $37,804,896.
Donald MacInnis: There is a matter that I was going to bring up on the first item,
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but the minister told me that this was the proper one. I understand that the department has adopted a new system with regard to letter carriers in the matter of their transportation when engaged in the delivery of mail. My understanding is that formerly letter carriers travelled free on streetcars, or at least that they did not have to pay fare while in uniform. They are now required to pay fare when they travel on streetcars in the course of the performance of their duties.
I should like to point out that the letter carrier is not in the position of an ordinary passenger. In the first place, he has his load of mail. He may have to use the streetcar several times a day in the course of his work. I was a streetcar conductor for many years, and I know that under those circumstances letter carriers had their transportation taken care of. I should like to have the assurance of the Postmaster General that this matter, whether it has been decided or not, will be reconsidered. At this time of the year when a person is expecting a Christmas box but receives one in reverse, it is not cricket, as the English would say. It may seem a small thing to us, but I assure the minister that it is not a small thing to the letter carrier. I should like to have the assurance of the Postmaster General that he will reconsider the matter.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: For some time the letter
carriers have been getting free transportation while in uniform. The contracts were to the effect that the letter carriers would be allowed transportation from the post office to the beginning of their routes and from the end of their routes back to the post office. It never was the intention to include in those contracts travel between their places of residence and the post office. There is no special reason why they should be given a privilege which is not enjoyed by other employees who have to pay their fare from their homes to work and from work to their homes.
At the present time we are considering the various contracts relating to city transportation. In Ottawa we inaugurated a system of tickets. We are looking at the rates in the various other cities, because we are now faced with a demand by the transportation companies for increases in the current amounts of the contracts. In Montreal, for instance, the demand is for an increase of 33J per cent. We are considering those contracts at the present time. We have not yet made any final decision.


Donald MacInnis: I wonder whether I understood the Postmaster General aright. Instead of travelling free when in uniform, the letter

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carriers now get tickets that will take them from their homes to the post office and from the post office to their homes?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: No. They have no ticket when travelling from their homes to the post office, but they are entitled to a ticket from the post office to the beginning of their routes or from the end of their routes back to the post office, or back to their homes if the distance between the end of their routes and their homes is greater by at least five hundred yards than the distance from their home to the post office.


Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):: Can the
minister give us a progress report as to what is happening to the suggested new post office in Winnipeg?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am told that the plans are in process of being completed by our department, and should be turned over to the public works department in a matter of days.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Have there been any complaints from the owners of properties that were expropriated? Have all the dealings been on an amicable basis, or have there been complaints?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: To our knowledge there have been no complaints.


Mr. Mclvor:: It is a well-known fact that if a man serves in the House of Commons for fifteen, twenty, twenty-five or thirty years and then does not wish to go to the Senate, or does not have an opportunity to do so, when he is no longer a member of the house he is out of all the things that went to make him an efficient member. A corporation will give a pension. Civil servants get a pension. But a member of parliament will get nothing but bumps. I suggest to the Postmaster General that if a man serves twenty-five or more years in the house he should at least have his franking privilege, whether he is a former private member or former prime minister. I would ask the Postmaster General to consider this request. I think the member of parliament has earned it. I do not doubt that some of these men today get letters with no stamps on them, and are obliged to pay double postage.


Mr. Noseworthy:: While we are on this item, can the minister tell me just what constitutes need for a post office in a district?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: What does the hon. member mean by "need"?


Joseph William Noseworthy: How badly does a district or a municipality have to be in need of a post office before it gets one? I am thinking now of a postal station, not just a sub-office.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Does the hon. member mean a post office building?


Joseph William Noseworthy: Yes.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The Post Office Department of course considers the needs of the various municipalities concerned. It is concerned also with the size of the municipality, and the revenue. Where the post office has a revenue of less than $3,000, it is up to the postmaster himself to supply the necessary premises. With regard to post offices with revenue of $3,000 up to $10,000, it is the public works department which usually arranges for locations, by way of lease, after conferring with our officials as to suitability of location. With regard to offices with more than $10,000 revenue, it is the principle of the department that post office buildings should be built, and recommendations to that effect are made to the public works department. As I explained this morning, there is a big backlog in this respect, owing to scarcity of materials, etc. We have had to establish some sort of priority with regard to these. We are pushing the public works department to erect these buildings, because we realize that in order to give good service we must have good buildings.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Is it the officials of the Post Office Department who determine whether there is a genuine need for a post office building?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The inspector usually makes the report.


Mr. Slewarl (Yorkion):: I have been asked by some of the members from Quebec and Ontario to raise a question with regard to franking. It has no particular application to the members who live a considerable distance from Ottawa, but rather to members from Ontario and Quebec who are frequently in the city on government business and have communications to send from the parliament buildings. I understand that the franking privilege ends ten days after the session ends. Some of these members request that the franking privilege be extended so that when they are in Ottawa on business they may frank their letters from the buildings here. I appreciate the fact that there might be an abuse of the privilege, but I am asking that the minister give the matter his consideration.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The suggestion certainly has merit, but we would have to amend the act. Section 43 of the act respecting postal service, in dealing with the frank, says:
. . . letters and other mailable matter addressed to or by any member of either house at the seat of government, during any session of parliament, or to any of the members at the seat of government as aforesaid, during the ten days next before the meeting of parliament, shall be free of Canada postage.

Therefore the law itself would have to be amended.


Mr. Hatfield:: I should like to refer to a request for a post office in my constituency. The former postmaster general promised to give it priority. A contract was called for this post office in 1939. The contract was let, but on account of the war construction was stopped. A piece of land was secured in 1939. When the contract was stopped the people in that district were promised that as soon as the war ended a post office would be erected. At that time the revenue was some $3,593. Today the revenue is beyond $9,000. The place is Plaster Rock, New Brunswick, a large lumbering and agricultural centre. In 1939 they had a large building. Today they have moved out of that building into a small building. The postmaster has only a small building in which to work. It is not becoming to the town. Since the revenues of this office have increased I hope that it will receive attention soon.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I shall be pleased to look into the matter.


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: I have not very much to say except commendation of the Post Office Department. So far as the public are concerned in my constituency they have been getting, on the whole, good service. The matter of how many boxes to the mile entitle a community to a rural mail service was brought up this morning. In my constituency there is one locality that had a rural route in previous years. The operation for over a mile in that district was discontinued. Justification for its discontinuance, as explained to me, was that instead of having four boxholders it had only three to the mile. I think it is desirable that the three boxholders should be served. Those who have been boxholders in the past should not be denied the privilege of a rural mail delivery.
Today we are at some disadvantage in discussing these estimates because we have not the last report from the department. I was able to get only the annual report for the year ended March 31, 1948, which is a year and nine months ago. Why should we not have the report for the year ending March 31, 1949?
The minister has stated the conditions under which post office buildings are erected. There is one locality in my constituency, namely, Pugwash, a seaboard town, the annual revenue of which must be practically up to the $10,000 minimum requirement. In
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any event, that community should be provided with a post office building. The building they have is not adequate to serve the requirements. I am sure there are many communities that have post office buildings where the revenue is much less than in the town of Pugwash.
Our service has been kept fairly free of political influence. I have had few complaints. That is a good thing for the service and a good thing for the department, and the public appreciate it. Where we do get complaints of political interference with the service and with appointments it has a bad effect all round. I believe it should be the policy of the department to keep it free from such influence. I have brought one instance to the attention of the minister. I shall not refer to it here. If the circumstances are as represented to me the department should take steps to correct this interference.
One of the complaints I have had in my constituency in recent years is the unfairness of the department in granting bonuses. Some mail couriers who made application for bonuses and pressed their claims were granted these bonuses or subsidies. Other couriers who felt that it was their duty to carry out their contracts, in accordance with the terms under which they tendered, did not know that increases were being paid and did not press for additional allowances. They continued to carry out their contracts at very small remuneration, while others received these bonuses. I consider that very unfair. Every person carrying on a service under the same conditions should have an equal chance to get these additional amounts which were granted during the war. I do not believe these bonuses are being renewed at the present time. That is one of the serious complaints I have had in my constituency. The department has shown great unfairness and discrimination to persdns who got these increases.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The authority for the bonus was abolished on March 31, 1949. I thank the hon. member for his suggestion as to the reduction in the number of people holding boxes per mile. We are always eager to improve the service and we shall certainly study his suggestion. I accept with pleasure and thanks the hon. member's praise.


Mr. Browne (St. John's West):: Mr. Chairman, I should like to draw the attention of the Postmaster General to a petition, which I received in August before I left St. John's, from two small settlements near a post office in Trepassey. The two places are Daniel's Point and Small Point. When I received those petitions I got in touch with the district inspector, and he told me I would hear about

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it when I got to Ottawa. Well, I have been here three months and I have not heard anything about it. I wrote to the Postmaster General a day or so ago. I wonder whether he is in a position to tell me if it has been decided or not.
In support of the request I may say that between 1931 and 1933 we had a depression in Newfoundland also, and we cut out a lot of post offices, cut down the service greatly. Now times are better and business is better, and there is a lot more mail coming. These two settlements are from four to six miles in from the main post office, and the practice is to send children across in dories to the post office. If they have to walk, they must go a distance of five or six miles each way to bring the mail back.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I have not seen the letter to which the hon. member refers. I shall certainly give it my best attention.


William Joseph Browne: 1 put in a
petition.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: The hon. member referred to a letter sent to me, which I have not yet seen.


William Joseph Browne: Just a couple of days ago.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I have not seen it yet.


Percy Chapman Black: Why have we not the report of this department for the past year? It is about twenty-one months since the last report.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed this is due to delay in printing, which is brought about by the heavy business of the session.


Percy Chapman Black: The committee should have in its hands a report as important as this one before we have to deal with the estimates of the Post Office Department or any other department. It is most unfair to the members.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: And to the minister, too. He has not got it either.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Have any of the minister's officials looked into the need for a post office in Forest Hill and York township? A request was sent to the postal authorities about three years ago, at which time we were informed of the shortage of materials. That request has been renewed by some of the councils. There is a community of around 100,000 people. The post office nearest to some of these people is at least seven or eight miles away. I am informed that there is difficulty in mailing parcels or securing money orders for people outside Canada. In most instances the residents have to go to the postal station for that service.
(Mr. Browne (St. John's West).]
I have received a good deal of criticism concerning some of the substations tucked away in little corners of drugstores and grocery stores. I have been in some where a person who goes for mail is the last person to receive attention. Those who are making purchases are served first. I wonder if any of the departmental officials have looked into that situation in York township and Forest Hill?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: A delegation was received recently and we are now studying their recommendations.


Mr. Charlion:: The minister has said there are 25,000 temporary employees taken on for the Christmas rush. The estimates disclose an expenditure of almost $10,250,000 for temporary assistance. How many of those temporary employees are on a full yearly basis?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: In this department on March 31, 1949, the number was 4,535 temporary employees on a yearly basis.


John Alpheus Charlton: Why are so many of these temporary employees kept on so long on a temporary basis?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed the chief reasons are, first, the question of the quota per post office and, secondly, that certain people are not yet qualified through examination of the civil service. There are also other people acting as replacements for those on vacation, and matters of that kind. The two first named reasons are the chief ones.


Mr. Knowles:: May I impress upon the Postmaster General the claim for a postal station in the Weston and Brooklands area of Winnipeg. I have had correspondence with him concerning this proposal, and would refer particularly to his letter to me of October 19. The information contained in that letter, bearing in mind what he said a few moments ago, strengthens my plea for consideration of this proposal.
As I understood the minister, an area in which a sub-office has a revenue of $3,000 to $10,000 a year merits a certain status, whereas once the revenue is greater than $10,000 a year consideration is given to the building of a post office building. The minister's letter to me of October 19 indicated that the revenue of the Dickens sub-office is approximately $9,000 per year, and that of sub-office No. 18 approximately $9,500 per year. Both those sub-offices are on Logan avenue, one at the corner of Keewatin street and the other at the corner of Quelch street, a very few blocks apart. They are in the same area about which I am speaking.
Their total revenue is $18,500 per year, according to the minister's letter to me of

October 19. That seems to be considerably in excess of the $10,000 figure the minister mentioned a little while ago. His letter also confirmed what I had said to him, that there is a population of over 9,000 people in this area of Weston and Brooklands. It is true that there is a letter carrier service, but in a sense the area is separated from the other parts of Winnipeg.
I have received complaints similar to those mentioned a moment ago by the hon. member for York South. It has been pointed out that while there are these two substations in the area, one of which is in a drugstore- I am not sure of the location of the other one -there is a tendency for the customers of the store to receive attention before those persons who come in to buy postage stamps or to mail parcels. It has been suggested to me that it is time this community had a post office building. I would ask for any comments the Postmaster General would care to make, and I would hope that this matter might be kept under consideration by him until something is done about it.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: What I said before applied to rural areas. There has to be a distinction between rural and urban areas, because if we were to build small post offices in cities where substations have revenues of more than $10,000 we would find that we would have post offices almost every mile. My earlier remarks were applicable to rural districts.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
310.	Railway mail service, $15,614,667.
William Joseph Browne: Has any
figure been set as a payment to the Canadian National Railways for carrying the mail from Port aux Basques to North Sydney?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: No, the matter is under
consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
311.	Air and land mail services, $22,743,141.
John Alpheus Charlton: I have here a resolution, a copy of which was sent to the minister under date of November 22. I have not heard from the minister and I just wanted to make sure that he has the resolution and that the matter will be considered. The hon. member for Huron North (Mr. Cardiff) brought up this matter this morning. This resolution was passed by the Oxford county council which sent it on to the Brant county council, who in turn forwarded it to me:
Whereas, many farmers and individuals in the rural areas are not properly served by the rural mail couriers,
We, the council of the county of Oxford, hereby petition the Postmaster General to extend routes of
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the rural mail courier, so that mail may be delivered on every township road, county road and highway on which a person is residing.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I have received the resolution and the matter is under consideration.


John Alpheus Charlton: Has a decision been arrived at?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am still considering it.


Joseph William Noseworthy: It has come to my attention that the postal rates on parcels from Canada to Europe are just about twice what they are on parcels from the United States and I should like to know if there is an explanation for this?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am informed that the transportation charges in the United States are paid by the recovery plan and we have no such plan here.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What are the regulations governing the keeping of mail overnight by a rural mail courier?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: They are not supposed to do that.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: There are points in Prince Edward Island where the mail is dropped off the train at seven, half past eight or even half past ten o'clock at night. The rural mail courier is not obliged to deliver that mail at that hour and I should like to know what understanding there is with regard to the mail courier keeping that mail overnight?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: In principle we are against the practice, but no one is supposed to do the impossible. The mail is under lock and is well protected and I think that provides all the guarantee we can ask.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I take it from the Postmaster General's answer that under certain conditions it is quite in order for a mail courier to keep the mail overnight. The rural mail carriers working out of Charlottetown must sort the mail for their own routes. When they come into the post office in the morning they have to look up a stable for their horses and it takes at least an hour and a half to sort the mail for their particular routes. There are only five mail routes out of that post office and if one or two clerks were put on the sorting of the mail for a couple of hours in the morning it would save the courier that much time and he could make his deliveries that much earlier. It is a pitiful sight to see seven or eight horses standing in the cold wintry weather instead of being out on the mail route.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: I am afraid the same situation exists throughout Canada. If we were to provide this supplementary service we would

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have to have 12,000 more men to do the work. That has always been and still is considered part of the work of the contractor.


Mr. Gibson (Comox-Alberni):: Mr. Chairman, I am sure we are all glad to see the new Postmaster General putting through his estimates and I feel certain he is going to do a good job. I have wondered what is the fundamental philosophy of the Post Office Department? Is it a profit-making organization or is it a service organization for the people of Canada? I think it is important that that fundamental philosophy should be established. We have all been proud of the fact that this department operates at a profit, although I am sure the Postmaster General knows that that is not really true.
In connection with this air mail service I find the Post Office Department very loath at times to provide this type of service. They admit that there are places that should have air mail service but they consider it too expensive. Could there not be some co-ordination between the Department of Transport and the Post Office Department, each of which has a certain responsibility in connection with the transporting of passengers and mail.
The town of Courtenay in my riding is on a scheduled air line. Air mail service to this place has been requested but the answer has been that the department cannot afford it. It is difficult to sell the Canadian people the idea of using slow trains when a regular scheduled air service is available. If a letter is mailed at Courtenay at eleven o'clock in the morning it does not arrive at Vancouver until ten o'clock the next morning, almost 24 hours later. It could go by plane at five o'clock, arrive at Vancouver at six o'clock and make connections with the east-bound mail the same evening.
The people in that area are quite prepared to pay the seven cent air mail rate. I should like to see the department put in an air mail service on a three-months trial to see if the extra revenue would not compensate the department for the increased expense involved. I would appreciate it greatly if the minister and his officials would give this matter their consideration.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: As far as the first part of the hon. member's question is concerned, this department is one of service, but due regard must always be had to the pockets of the taxpayers. As to the second question, last year we spent $8,213,000 on air mail service, but if we can give improved service there we shall certainly attempt to do so.


John Lambert Gibson: How much of that went to T.C.A.?
tMr. Rinfret.l


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: 


John Lambert Gibson: The great bulk of it went to T.C.A.?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: Yes.


John Lambert Gibson: So it was just a transfer of government funds?


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: That is right.
Mr. Cold well: If I am on the wrong item I hope you will excuse me for a moment. I know this matter concerns the Department of Public Works more than the Postmaster General. Some years ago a site was purchased for a post office in the town of Biggar, Saskatchewan, and an item was put in the estimates of the Department of Public Works to construct a building. It is a project that should be considered because Biggar is an important divisional point on the Canadian National Railways, a town with a population of over 2,000 and a large adjacent territory which the post office serves. I believe the revenue would warrant it. All I am asking is that the Postmaster General co-operate as much as possible with the Minister of Public Works for the erection of a proper building.


Édouard-Gabriel Rinfret: With pleasure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department and missions abroad-
51. Departmental administration, $2,170,510.
['I had intended to make a statement on the next item, but in view of the suggestion of the hon. member for Calgary West it might be advisable to make it at this time.\nThe committee will recall the statement I made the other evening with respect to cortisone and ACTH, and the circumstances surrounding them, which I felt could be made public at that time. In view of certain conferences which have since taken place here in Ottawa and elsewhere, it is now possible to supplement that statement.\nOn November 28 I announced that limited supplies of cortisone manufactured in the United States would be made available after January 1 by Merck and Company Limited, Montreal, for research to be undertaken in Canada. Today I can reveal that, as a result of negotiations that have been going on for some time, Connaught Medical Research Laboratories at the university of Toronto are going to undertake immediately to get production of ACTH under way in Canada for investigation and clinical research by Canadian scientists.\nThe federal government, the Canadian packing industry and the university of Toronto are all co-operating in the project of producing ACTH in Canada. Supplies of ACTH made available in this country will be allocated exclusively for research by a special committee of eminent Canadian medical men named by the president of the national research council. This committee, besides advising on the allocation of ACTH, will approve financial support for research on both ACTH and cortisone to ensure that all available facilities in Canada are fully utilized to speed the research program. The cost, estimated at about three-quarters of a million dollars in the first instance, will be provided for by the federal government through the national health grants and the national research council.\nACTH, like cortisone, seems to hold promise for the treatment of a number of diseases, but since on the basis of present knowledge only exceedingly small quantities of these drugs can be produced, they will be used exclusively for research to determine their\n\nfull effects, to discover new or improved methods of production, and to study the possibility of developing related products having similar efEects. Only by limiting these drugs strictly for research purposes now can we hope for progress in finding out how to produce enough for whatever treatment purposes are proved to be of lasting value.\nThe medical scientists with whom there has been collaboration have urged that persons suffering from arthritis or other disease for which ACTH and cortisone are possible remedies should not neglect the treatment they may presently be taking. As I mentioned in the house a few days ago, with Dr. Cameron, deputy minister of National Health and Welfare, I had an opportunity in New York recently of discussing these drugs with Drs. Hench and Kendall of the Mayo clinic, who are best known among the many scientists who have been associated with their development and use. Both emphasized to us that no responsible prediction could be given as to when adequate quantities of cortisone will be available for treatment purposes. Canadian medical scientists have urged me to state that the same is true for ACTH.\nACTH-known to scientists as the adreno-corticotrophic hormone-is a substance obtained from the tiny pituitary gland located in the centre of the brain of animals. It gives promise of highly important discoveries which may lead to advances in the treatment of a number of diseases. It is, for example, believed to stimulate the body to produce its own cortisone, which has already been found by Drs. Kendall and Hench of the Mayo clinic to produce "encouraging results" in the treatment of certain types of arthritis.\nUp to the present, ACTH is being extracted from the pituitary glands of hogs. This gland is about the size of a pea and only a fraction of it contains the hormone. It is estimated that 1,700 hogs produce a pound of glands, and that 400,000 hogs are needed to yield a pound of ACTH.\nAt present, the entire production of ACTH in the United States is 60 pounds per year, enough for the continuous treatment of only a thousand patients. ACTH can also be obtained from the glands of cattle and sheep, but the yield is not nearly as large as from hogs.\nWhat I am going to say now is said in part with the view of placing on the record the contribution made in this highly important field by our own Canadian scientists-medical men and chemists, particularly steroid chemists.\nSince the interest and help of the Canadian packing industry is assured, the maximum\nSupply-National Health and Welfare amount of glands will be collected. This entails special arrangements being made, as the glands must be quickly removed from the slaughtered animal, frozen and kept frozen until processed. Dr. R. D. Defries, the director of the Connaught Medical Research Laboratories, is my authority for saying that during the past few months Armour Laboratories in Chicago have been able to forward limited supplies of ACTH to a few centres in Canada for investigation. Although chemists in Canadian laboratories have been interested in this material for some time there has as yet been no production trere of this drug in more than the most minute experimental quantities.\nTo ensure a continuing supply of ACTH in this country without drawing heavily upon the necessarily restricted supply available for research in the United States, it is planned to use as large a quantity as possible of pituitary glands from Canadian sources. Small quantities will be used at first to develop a method of production in the Connaught Laboratories and the balance will be forwarded to Armour Laboratories in Chicago, who have developed successful processing techniques and will make a supply of ACTH available for use in this country. I am further empowered to state that as soon as production is well established, in keeping with the general policy of this widely known research organization, the product will be made available at the minimum cost.\nTo assist in financing this undertaking, with the co-operation of the Ontario department of health, a federal grant has been approved from the funds available for public health research under the national health program. An equal amount is being granted by the medical division of the national research council. These grants will be used for developing the process of production.\nIn the initial stage of making ACTH and cortisone available for research in Canada, an expenditure of as much as three quarters of a million dollars will probably be required during the first year. It is not possible yet to predict the probable cost in succeeding years. The material purchased by these funds will be very limited and sufficient, as I have already emphasized, for research purposes only.\nIn order to have a supply of ACTH for assay purposes, the food and drug laboratories of the Department of National Health and Welfare have made arrangements with Canada Packers of Hull for enough hog pituitary glands for [DOT] the preparation in Ottawa of very limited quantities of ACTH.\n2970\tHOUSE OF\nSupply-National Health and Welfare The product of this federal laboratory will be tested for potency and stability against preparations of known strength prepared in Chicago and Toronto. It will then be assigned a potency value and retained as a reference standard for the testing of preparations from all manufacturers. This work is being directed by Dr. L. I. Pugsley, chief of the laboratory services in the food and drug division, who in 1933 worked with Dr. J. B. Collip, then professor of biochemistry at McGill university, on some of the first studies made of ACTH. This Ottawa project is the immediate responsibility of W. D. Snair, who has had considerable experience in the preparation and assay of ACTH, having taken his M.Sc. degree in this branch of endocrinology at the university of Toronto.\nThe development of ACTH and cortisone is an outstanding example of international co-operation in medical research, and of the value of the free interchange of scientific information. It is a notable fact that although the first regular production of both ACTH and cortisone has taken place in the United States, Canadian scientists have been kept fully advised and are co-operating in this undertaking. For several months we have received progress reports from the officers of our department, and also from Canadian scientists who have attended meetings of the committee of the National Academy of Science in Washington that was established to correlate information in this field. We have also established liaison with those who perhaps can be described as mainly responsible for the development of these new drugs.\nEarly in the 1920\'s American research scientists demonstrated that the functioning of the adrenal cortex is under the influence of the anterior pituitary, a tiny gland controlling growth and sexual development as well as influencing the functioning of the adrenal and thyroid glands. In 1933 Dr. J. B. Collip, one of our outstanding research men, then at McGill and now dean of medicine at the university of Western Ontario, demonstrated that what had been believed to be a single, simple hormone from the anterior pituitary gland could be broken up into fractions to perform several functions. One of these fractions is ACTH.\nIn this work Dr. Collip was assisted by Dr. Evelyn Anderson, now in the United States public health service, and Dr. D. L. Thomson, now dean of graduate studies and research at McGill university. The first report of these studies was published in the English medical journal, the Lancet, in', "\nAugust 1933. Dr. Hans Selye, also working at McGill at this time, who is now head of the institute of experimental medicine and surgery at the university of Montreal, devised a practical method of removing the minute pituitary glands in animals used for experimental purposes.\nThree years later, Dr Selye first announced his theory-which is of great interest-about the body's defensive mechanisms against injury and disease and the way in which they involve the pituitary-adrenal linkage.\nIt was not until several years later that- at about the same time-Dr. C. H. Li and Dr. H. M. Evans of the university of California and Drs. Sayers, White and Long of Yale university, obtained purified ACTH from the anterior pituitary glands of sheep and swine. Dr. Long also worked at McGill university for some years.\nIn 1947, J. B. Fishman of Yale university developed a method of preparing ACTH which gave yields considerably higher than those obtained by previous workers, and last year Dr. Li's work opened up the possibility of synthesizing ACTH. Also in 1948, Dr. J. S. L. Browne, professor of medicine at McGill university, and his associates carried out studies on the metabolic effects of ACTH on the human system.\nAs yet it is beyond the powers of scientists to produce these drugs in quantity. Efforts are being made to find better sources or less complicated and time-consuming production methods. Meanwhile, we are ensuring that funds will be available in Canada to further all useful lines of investigation both into the production and the use of these drugs. To do this we must resolutely conserve them exclusively for research purposes as this is the surest guarantee of shortening the time that must elapse-and it might be a very long time-before they can be made available for all that they can benefit.\nI have made this statement in collaboration, of course, with the officers of my department, but also in collaboration with some of the men whose names I have mentioned and who have deemed it necessary to state some of the things I have said. I have done so because of the great importance attached to cortisone and ACTH by leading authorities in Canada, and indeed all over the world. The considerable resources of Canadian scientific research are now being mobilized to ensure a worth-while Canadian contribution in a matter so important to humanity.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported."]
The Deputy Chairman:: As the committee knows, the estimates of this department were carefully studied in the standing committee on external affairs.


Alistair McLeod Stewart: I rise on a question of privilege. I said yesterday, at page 2587 of Hansard, that the film board had sold 1,733 prints, which did not appear to me to be terribly severe competition so far as the professional photographers association was concerned. The hon. member for Peterborough West attempted to correct me, and pointed out that up to September 30 of this year 57,755 prints were sold. The misunderstanding arose through my not making it clear that the 1,733 prints had been sold at commercial rates to whoever solicited them. From January 1 to September 30, 1949, as the hon. member for Peterborough West said, 57,755 prints were sold. Of this number 1,733 prints were sold at commercial rates to whoever wanted them, and the balance were sold to government departments.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I also rise on a question of privilege. At page 2837 of Hansard I am reported as saying "quite true" after you, Mr. DECEMBER 8, 1949
Chairman, had made certain remarks. The first part of your remarks had some reference to item 934, and then you added this sentence:
He is reported to the extent of about half a page on television as it appears in Hansard of yesterday.
You were referring to me, Mr. Chairman. After that remark I am reported in Hansard as saying "quite true". My remark applied only to your last sentence, namely, that I had spoken to the extent of about half a page on television. It does not apply to your previous remark about its having a bearing on item 934.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I have listened to the two questions of privilege raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North and the hon. member for Eglinton. I should like to refer them to citations 192 and 193 of Beauchesne, third edition.


Donald Methuen Fleming: As you have said, Mr. Chairman, these estimates were carefully reviewed in the standing committee on external affairs, and I am sure there is no disposition on the part of anyone to go over the same ground that was covered there. Nevertheless, as that was done a matter of several weeks ago and events have been moving pretty swiftly in certain quarters, I wonder if the minister has any further information to give the house concerning any of these matters, particularly with reference to the Far East.


Lester Bowles Pearson: Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is very much I can add on the general international situation to the statement I made in the house a few weeks ago. On the particular point raised by my hon. friend, conditions in the Far East, there have not been any developments of which I am aware that have altered the situation, and our attitude towards it. As to the question of the recognition of another government in China, I do not think I would have anything to add at this time to what I have said previously. If there are any other specific points which are of particular interest to the hon. member, I shall be glad to deal with them, but in general there is nothing I would care to add to what I said a few weeks ago.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
S3. Representation abroad-including payment of salaries of high commissioners, ambassadors, ministers plenipotentiary, consuls, secretaries and staff appointed as directed by the governor general in council, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act or any of its amendments, $5,172,363.
['Mr. Chairman, I do not think there is very much I can add on the general international situation to the statement I made in the house a few weeks ago. On the particular point raised by my hon. friend, conditions in the Far East, there have not been any developments of which I am aware that have altered the situation, and our attitude towards it. As to the question of the recognition of another government in China, I do not think I would have anything to add at this time to what I have said previously. If there are any other specific points which are of particular interest to the hon. member, I shall be glad to deal with them, but in general there is nothing I would care to add to what I said a few weeks ago.']
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: What is the total number of commissioners, ambassadors, plenipotentiaries and consuls, and how many different countries do they cover?
Supply-External Affairs


Lester Bowles Pearson: The total staff of the department situated abroad is 635, and that includes Canadian representation in forty-four offices in thirty-four countries. Of that total number there are fourteen ambassadors, six ministers, six high commissioners, one head of a military mission-that is in Germany-three consuls general, 69 foreign service officers of the seven grades, four consular officers; and administrative officers and subordinate staff make up the remainder.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Would that include trade commissioners as well?


Lester Bowles Pearson: No, trade commissioners would come under the Department of Trade and Commerce, and would be in addition to the number I have mentioned.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: How are these commissioners and ambassadors selected; by the civil service commission or are they straight government appointments?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The heads of missions,
whether they are ambassadors, ministers or high commissioners, are government appointments. Foreign service officers in our missions abroad are all appointed after competitive examination through the civil service commission.


Mr. Murray (Cariboo):: Is there any policy outlined for the employment of young Canadians at these offices abroad? I mean as typists, filing clerks, and so on. Our young people should be trained in this particular field of service rather than employing personnel in the places where the offices are located.


Lester Bowles Pearson: We employ Canadians in clerical, administrative and stenographic work in our offices abroad. We recruit them through the civil service commission, and train them in the department for service abroad. Subordinate appointments abroad are sometimes filled by local recruitment, but in general the stenographic, clerical and administrative staffs are recruited in Canada for service abroad and trained for that purpose.


George Matheson Murray: Would the minister consider employing only Canadian-born people in these offices?


Lester Bowles Pearson: We try to do that, but for appointment to very subordinate positions, such as messengers and so on, we do not think it would be economically desirable to send people from Canada. Any position involving any degree of responsibility, however, should be and is filled by a Canadian official.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-External Affairs
60.	Grant to United Nations Society in Canada, $5,000.
['We try to do that, but for appointment to very subordinate positions, such as messengers and so on, we do not think it would be economically desirable to send people from Canada. Any position involving any degree of responsibility, however, should be and is filled by a Canadian official.']
Donald Methuen Fleming: The standing committee on external affairs adopted a resolution recommending that the government give consideration to increasing this amount, presumably in next year's estimates. I would ask the minister if he will give consideration to that recommendation.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I shall be happy to give consideration to that recommendation by the committee.


Major James William Coldwell: I should like to support that request by saying that all of us who are interested in the United Nations organization would be grateful if that could be considered. Are we also considering item 779 of the supplementaries?


Louis-René Beaudoin: For the sake of order perhaps we should dispose of item No. 60, which covers a grant to the United Nations Society in Canada. The item to which the hon. member refers deals with the international children's emergency fund, and we shall come to that later.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-The Canadian government assessment for membership in the following international or commonwealth organizations.
61.	United Nations, $1,335,000.
["For the sake of order perhaps we should dispose of item No. 60, which covers a grant to the United Nations Society in Canada. The item to which the hon. member refers deals with the international children's emergency fund, and we shall come to that later."]
Howard Charles Green: Press dispatches of yesterday, December 7, indicate that there was a vote in the United Nations concerning Southwest Africa. As I read the dispatches, a resolution was put through asking the international court of justice to rule on the status of Southwest Africa. That resolution was bitterly opposed by South Africa but was carried; and I believe Canada supported the motion. There may have been good reasons for that action on Canada's part, tout the minister should explain them to the committee. South Africa is a sister nation in the commonwealth. Over a period of years she has been severely criticized by some nations which really have not much right to criticize, because they do not deal with their own problems any better than South Africa has dealt with hers; and I believe some nations at least have been very unfair in the attitude they have adopted toward our sister nation. South Africa is facing a very difficult problem in Southwest Africa, and it is all too easy for these other nations to throw bricks at her.
Personally I rather regret that Canada joined with the other nations in voting against South Africa on a question of this kind, which must make things very awkward for that country. One has only to think back


to the meeting in San Francisco, where Field Marshal Smuts was one of the key men in bringing about the organization of the United Nations. If it had not been for his wise leadership perhaps there would have been no United Nations organization. In other years he has been attacked personally before that assembly; and now, this week, we have this further attack on South Africa in which Canada joined with these other countries. I should like the minister to give us some explanation.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I think there is some misunderstanding in the mind of the hon. gentleman as to what we actually did, that is what the Canadian delegation did at Lake Success, on this matter. We have had close and very friendly co-operation with the South African delegation at the assembly. As the committee is aware, that delegation was under attack because of certain alleged inadequacies in its policies with regard to Southwest Africa.
We did not support certain efforts made by other delegations to impose obligations upon the Union of South Africa in respect of this territory which we thought she was not obliged to accept under the charter, but there was some doubt whether the obligation of supplying information to the United Nations on behalf of that territory rested with South Africa, and we supported a resolution to refer that and related matters to the international court to obtain a legal opinion as to whether South Africa was under an obligation to submit that information to the United Nations. That is all we did in that regard, and in the circumstances I do not think the South African delegation would quarrel with our attitude on that resolution.


Howard Charles Green: Then the press dispatch is wrong. According to it there were two votes. The first was on a motion to have the international court of justice rule on the status of Southwest Africa, and the report says Canada voted for that motion. Then apparently there was another vote concerning this matter of submitting information to the United Nations, and the report indicates that Canada abstained from voting on the second motion. Is the newspaper report correct?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I have not seen the newspaper report, nor as yet have I seen the official report from our delegation, which will probably arrive today. We did vote for a resolution to submit to the international court the question of South Africa's obligations in respect of Southwest Africa, whether it is or is not analogous to a trust territory. All we wanted to do by that vote was to have this question cleared up by a legal opinion. We may have abstained on the other question,

as to whether South Africa should or should not supply the United Nations with certain information; but if we did abstain, as I see it, that would not necessarily mean a judgment on South Africa's policy. One reason we may have abstained in regard to whether South Africa should or should not supply certain information would be that we felt it might be undesirable to take a definite position in that regard until we knew what was South Africa's legal position in regard to Southwest Africa.


Howard Charles Green: If Canada abstained from voting on the resolution asking for further information about Southwest Africa, why on earth should she vote for the resolution asking the international court of justice to go into the question of the status of Southwest Africa?


Lester Bowles Pearson: With all respect, I do not think those two positions are inconsistent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Specialized agencies-
62.	Food and agricultural organization of the United Nations, $191,000.
['With all respect, I do not think those two positions are inconsistent.']
Mr. Fair:: Could the minister give us a brief outline of the present position of the food and agricultural organization, particularly with respect to the setting up of a fund for the purchase of food in surplus areas for distribution in the deficiency areas of the world today? Just what is the position in that regard?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The food and agricultural organization has just concluded its annual assembly. The leader of the Canadian delegation to that assembly was my colleague the Minister of Agriculture, and I believe he would be in a much better position to deal with that question if that would be agreeable to the hon. member.


Mr. Wrighi:: It is agreeable, provided that we can get something on it from him on some of his estimates. We are having difficulty.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I will bring it to the attention of the minister in the hope that he is able to say something about it on his estimates later.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
64. United Nations educational, scientific and cultural organization, $306,500.
['I will bring it to the attention of the minister in the hope that he is able to say something about it on his estimates later.']
Mr. Low:: Reports in various papers recently indicate a concerted effort on the part of some of the European countries to devote moneys from the contributions that are made by the various nations for the purpose of educating groups of children that have been taken away from Greece and lodged in countries like Roumania. Can the minister give us
Supply-External Affairs some late information on just what is being done with the moneys which are voted to UNESCO by this parliament and whether or not there is any danger that some of these moneys will find their way into the effort to educate people who have been gathered together in what are called the communist camps or atheist camps in Europe?


Lester Bowles Pearson: With regard to the activities of UNESCO, the hon. member will recall that a statement was made on this subject in the committee. On page 136 of No. 4 of the committee reports he will find outlined certain projects that UNESCO has undertaken.
He has mentioned the particular question whether UNESCO funds are being used for the purpose of educating Greek children who have been taken from Greece as the result of the civil war and put in communist camps in Bulgaria, Roumania and other communist countries. I certainly have no knowledge of any such funds being used for that purpose, and I would be greatly surprised indeed if that has happened; but I shall be glad to look into the matter. In regard to these children, I might say that at the recent United Nations assembly we passed a resolution which I think will be effective in bringing about their repatriation to Greece, and I hope that will happen before long.


Solon Earl Low: In the meantime, if there is any pffort on the part of the various organizations or of UNESCO itself to make use of Canadian contributions for such education as has been mentioned, I am sure that the minister will give the committee the assurance that he will resist it to the utmost.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I shall be glad to give that assurance now.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I will go further and say that if it is found that Canadian money is being used for that purpose or any money of UNESCO is being used under conditions of that kind, Canada should give serious consideration to abandoning UNESCO; because I do not think there is any Canadian or any member who wants to see moneys put at the disposal of UNESCO used for that purpose. I am quite sure that situation does not exist, but in line with what the minister said in reply to the hon. member for Peace River, I am sure that the feeling in this country would be just as strong as I have sought to indicate.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I gave that assurance, and I am glad to repeat it. But I would not want it to be understood that I think for a moment that funds are being used by UNESCO for that purpose, because we have no reason to believe that to be the case.


Clarence Gillis: This question is not on that particular point. Can the minister tell us

Supply-External Affairs what means or methods they adopt to keep the people informed with regard to what discussions and decisions are taking place and what decisions are being made through the medium of that organization? About all we get is what the press gives us or what the minister reports to the house. Is a verbatim report kept of the committee meetings, of the general assembly meetings and of decisions that are made? Is there something that is reliable and that you can send back to people that are interested? I think the success or failure of that organization will depend on how well people are informed.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I take it that the hon. member is now talking about UNESCO.


Clarence Gillis: No, about the whole set-up.


Lester Bowles Pearson: With regard to the United Nations organization generally, I think we disseminate a certain amount of information through our department. There are other ways by which the people are kept informed. The United Nations division of information itself is a very active agency, and information from that quarter comes to Canada and other countries; in fact a considerable portion of the budget of the United Nations is devoted to the information division which is supposed to keep the member countries informed by radio, the press and through other sources of information. I think they have done that with some measure of success.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
65. World health organization, $108,000.
['With regard to the United Nations organization generally, I think we disseminate a certain amount of information through our department. There are other ways by which the people are kept informed. The United Nations division of information itself is a very active agency, and information from that quarter comes to Canada and other countries; in fact a considerable portion of the budget of the United Nations is devoted to the information division which is supposed to keep the member countries informed by radio, the press and through other sources of information. I think they have done that with some measure of success.']
Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister indicate the reason for the reduction in the amount of the item? Has it anything to do with the budget of the organization or does it indicate any lessening of activity on its part?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I do not think that the reduction in the budget of that organization has anything to do with the lessening of its activities. There is a statement about the organization, which may be found at page 142 of volume 4 of the committee reports. From a study of the organization I think it will be found that it is maintaining its activities and that the reduction is a technical one which I believe will not interfere with the work. The reason why we reduced our own contributions was a purely technical one, namely that we had paid part of the contribution in the previous year, which meant we had less to pay this year.


Donald Methuen Fleming: Today's press indicates that Bulgaria has withdrawn from the world health organization. Has the minister any information as to whether this indicates a
general withdrawal on the part of those members of the world health organization that are behind the iron curtain?


Lester Bowles Pearson: The Soviet union withdrew from this organization about a year ago, and it is therefore not surprising that the governments controlled by the Soviet union should follow that policy. Bulgaria's withdrawal is probably due to that fact.


Donald Methuen Fleming: What about the other
countries behind the iron curtain?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I think some of the other countries have withdrawn as well. If they have not, I should not be surprised if they did so before long.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-
70. To provide for the Canadian government's contribution to the international refugee organization, $5,425,000.
['I think some of the other countries have withdrawn as well. If they have not, I should not be surprised if they did so before long.']
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: Will the minister give us an idea of the total amount of contributions to the organization? I notice that the Canadian government's contribution is $5,500,000.


Lester Bowles Pearson: The hon. member will find a good deal of information about this organization on page 145 of volume 4 of the proceedings and evidence of the committee, where a report was made on it by the department. A good deal of detail is given in that report, and possibly the hon. member would not wish me to repeat those details now.
The total budget of the organization is $4,500,000 for administrative expenses and $150,000,000 for operational expenses. Of the $155,000,000 our share is, as the estimate shows, roughly about 3 * 5 per cent, which is generally in line with the proportion of the expenses of international organizations that this government bears.


Frederick Davis Shaw: There are a couple of matters to which I should like to refer. Can the minister give us any information as to the number of displaced persons who have gone to each of the various countries that now contribute to this $155,000,000 fund?


Lester Bowles Pearson: Since July 1, 1947, when IRO began its work, some 260,000 refugees have been resettled, some of them in their own countries of origin, some in other European countries and others in countries abroad. At the moment I have not before me a breakdown of that number, but again that is to be found in the report of the committee where figures are given on this matter. In Canada I believe we have taken since that time somewhere around 45,000 displaced persons, but I am not sure of the exact number.


Frederick Davis Shaw: In the return which was brought down in my name and also in the evidence to which the minister referred, I noticed that certain expenses incurred in connection with displaced persons coming to Canada are met out of IRO funds. My experience with this has been that in some instances they have been paid, and in a great many instances they have not been paid. In my own constituency I know of two instances at least where the sponsors had to pay as high as $900 and $1,000 in order to bring displaced persons, refugees, to this country. In that connection I should like to ask two questions.
Since there are, or are presumed to be, a number of organizations in Canada which contact the sponsors of displaced persons and ask for certain amounts of money to be paid before these persons can come out, will the minister give us a list of what might be regarded as legitimate organizations which are now contacting the relatives of displaced persons and asking them for the payment of certain amounts of money before these persons can come out? Is there any method by which those who have paid these large sums of money can secure refunds? It seems most unfair when you take two cases. In the one case the bulk of the expenses have been paid, and in the other case none of the expenses have been paid even though it worked great hardship on the sponsor.


Lester Bowles Pearson: So far as the government is concerned we deal only with the international refugee organization.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Displaced persons?


Lester Bowles Pearson: All displaced persons coming to this country under the auspices of that organization are treated in the same way. There may well be, however, other displaced persons who find their way to Canada in other ways, and I am not sure what the situation is in regard to the payment of their travelling expenses. The IRO does pay the travelling expenses of the people under its jurisdiction coming to Canada. I shall be glad to look into that and see if there are organizations of the kind the hon. member suggests, and find out whether injustices have been done through the activities of those organizations whereby some displaced persons get their expenses paid and others do not.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I would certainly appreciate an investigation. The individual sponsor has no way of knowing whether an organization is legitimate or not; and of course they are so keen about getting those people out that they will sacrifice to the limit. I know of cases where it has occurred in order to get enough
Supply-External Affairs money to meet the demands of the organization. I certainly hope this matter will be looked into.


Major James William Coldwell: May I just say a word on this? I think the Department of Labour and the Department of Immigration ought to be commended on the manner in which they have dealt with this question of displaced persons in the last two years. One should express appreciation of the manner in which this has been dealt with latterly. For a year or two we were prone to complain that Canada was not doing her part in giving refuge to those who had suffered from nazi oppression and the threat of communist retaliation if they were returned to their countries of origin.
I have had something to do with the setting up of the IRO and have had considerable correspondence with the department in regard to people, particularly from the Baltic states, whom I regard as very desirable settlers in this country. I have found that the Department of Labour and our representatives overseas have given every attention to any request that has been made.
With regard to the point raised by the hon. member, I wonder whether it is because persons who wished to bring relatives and displaced persons had been, shall I say, sufficiently ill advised to accept approaches by certain people offering to bring relatives over for a consideration. I came across an instance in my own constituency a short time ago of an approach from Paris, as a matter of fact, in connection with the coming of the mother of a gentleman in my constituency. The amount asked for was $1,000. Fortunately the man who had been in contact with the people in Paris asked me about it when I was out there last summer. I said: "Don't send the $1,000. I shall inquire of our own department." I inquired in the department and the department made inquiries overseas. The result was that the necessary order in council was passed. The money for the passage of this lady from Germany to Canada has been paid to the Canadian National Railways and I have no doubt that if she can get out of Poland she will arrive here at a fraction of the cost that was originally asked.
As far as possible people should be advised to get in touch with responsible government officials or organizations, and get advice before they pay out large sums of money to get people into this country. As I understand, there is no need for them to do that. If the person is in a displaced persons camp the IRO looks after it. If they are not in such a camp the thing to do is to get in touch with the Canadian National or the Canadian
2928	HOUSE OF
Supply-External Affairs Pacific or one of the transportation organizations and the department, get the necessary permission, and the cost will be a fraction of what is asked.
I rose to say I have appreciated the co-operation of the department and the manner in which they have in the last two years at least endeavoured to work out the settlement of displaced persons and particularly the persons who I think can make a contribution to this country. However, I must add this. There is growing in the displaced persons camps a hard corps of persons who are not easily integrated, shall I say, into the life of the various countries. Because of war disabilities some of them have become deafened. For example, I know of a Latvian family where two of the children were deafened in an air raid by the British forces on a German city and the parents cannot come without them. On the other hand, I understand, this country is hesitant about bringing them in, or perhaps some people who have contracted lung trouble or something of that sort because they were refugees running away from the oppression of Hitler, or if it was in the Baltic states, from the Russians when they came in. They have suffered in the common cause, and perhaps I might suggest to the minister that some attention should be given to seeing whether the nations together can come to an arrangement whereby perhaps at least some of these people can be taken care of in our country. Indeed, perhaps if we erected institutions for some of these people, in years to come those institutions might be very valuable to this country in the field of public health.
I know it is a difficult problem, but I feel that as a Christian country, and actuated as most people in this country are by humanitarian principles, we should consider those who are not as physically fit as others we have taken to assist us in the performance of various types of labour in this country.
I am speaking to the minister on behalf of these unfortunate people in the camps in Europe.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I appreciate what the hon. member has said. A few moments ago I mentioned a figure of 45,000 d.p.'s having entered Canada. I find that up to December 31, 1948, 54,733 had entered this country.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I intended no criticism of IRO or the minister's department. However, this matter has come to my attention, and in the second place I was thinking only of Canadian organizations, and did not have in mind organizations or individuals outside Canada who might be trying to secure money.
[Mr. Coldwell.l


Clarence Gillis: I might say my experience in connection with a sponsor bringing in a person from a displaced persons camp was not along the lines indicated by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar. In the several cases I have in mind there was no organization such as that described by the hon. member for Red Deer. There did come to my attention, however, cases concerning people who were in displaced persons camps in Germany. The negotiations in connection with bringing them in were all carried on through the immigration branch. In one instance it took about three years before the person affected could be screened and brought through. All the expense was paid by the sponsor in Canada-every cent of it. To the best of my knowledge, in the several cases with which I was concerned the sponsors in Canada paid all the expenses, after a considerable amount of delay and difficulty, in connection with bringing in the remains of a family in Europe.
If the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar is of the opinion that all one has to do is to get in touch with the immigration branch or the Department of Labour, and that the expenses will be paid and the job done, I can tell him that certainly has not been my experience. Perhaps those people should ask for a refund.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
774. International civil aviation organization, $138,759.
['I might say my experience in connection with a sponsor bringing in a person from a displaced persons camp was not along the lines indicated by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar. In the several cases I have in mind there was no organization such as that described by the hon. member for Red Deer. There did come to my attention, however, cases concerning people who were in displaced persons camps in Germany. The negotiations in connection with bringing them in were all carried on through the immigration branch. In one instance it took about three years before the person affected could be screened and brought through. All the expense was paid by the sponsor in Canada-every cent of it. To the best of my knowledge, in the several cases with which I was concerned the sponsors in Canada paid all the expenses, after a considerable amount of delay and difficulty, in connection with bringing in the remains of a family in Europe.\nIf the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar is of the opinion that all one has to do is to get in touch with the immigration branch or the Department of Labour, and that the expenses will be paid and the job done, I can tell him that certainly has not been my experience. Perhaps those people should ask for a refund.']
Stanley Howard Knowles: Has the minister any further statement to make in connection with the matter about which I spoke to him a few days ago, involving the United States and Canada?


Lester Bowles Pearson: I take it the hon. member is referring to the difficulty in connection with Colonial Air Lines?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes.


Lester Bowles Pearson: No; I have nothing further to say, except that we have received the note and will be answering it and will be having our discussion in due course with the United States authorities. The Colonial hearing meanwhile begins on Monday.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
779. International children's emergency fund, $1,075,000.
['No; I have nothing further to say, except that we have received the note and will be answering it and will be having our discussion in due course with the United States authorities. The Colonial hearing meanwhile begins on Monday.']
Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Chairman, I am glad to see this appropriation in the estimates. The people in Canada have shown their interest in this fund because when last April an appeal was made a very considerable sum

of money was raised voluntarily, as well as a contribution of some $6 million which I believe has been made to this organization.
I do not believe there is anything which can create more good will for this country and the other countries participating in the fund than can this international children's emergency fund. These children are helped wherever they may be, in any and every country. While it may be said that children are being helped in countries unfriendly to us, nevertheless I believe that when the children in those countries grow up they will appreciate what has been done for them, not only in the matter of providing food and clothing to meet their present distress, but also in the medical care and the treatment given them to make them useful world citizens.
I have always been interested in seeing this sort of thing undertaken, not only by private organizations-and I believe we should use private organizations as well-but, when the need is as great as it is now, by nations making contributions from the public purse. I am glad Canada is doing that.
Perhaps on another occasion I may point out the need of doing something for our own children in our own country. But the fact that we have to do so is no reason why we should not participate in a worth-while international fund to help children throughout the world. It is true that charity begins at home; but there is another part of the good book which says that if we cast our bread upon the waters it will return to us after many days. I think this is one way of casting bread upon the waters, and I am sure that one day we shall be rewarded tenfold for what we are trying to do now.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I have only one comment, and it is this: We are just completing a review of the estimates of one of the most important government departments, and we have done it in the space of forty-five minutes, despite the fact that there are, I believe, thirty-five items. This has been made possible because these items were reviewed in the standing committee on external affairs.
This gives me an opportunity to repeat what I had said before, that I think parliament will do infinitely more efficient work on the estimates-


Louis-René Beaudoin: Order; the item under discussion has to do with the international children's emergency fund.


Donald Methuen Fleming: I am making the observation-


Louis-René Beaudoin: Speeches must be strictly relevant to the item.
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Donald Methuen Fleming: What I am saying applies to this item as it does to the others, that the example here is one worth repeating in other departments, namely that the estimates be referred to a committee before they are taken up here.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
455. Canals service, administration, $81,400.
Percy Chapman Black: I shall not take up much time in discussing the estimates of this very important department. So far as the maritime provinces are concerned this department is most important. We have already had some discussion with respect to the transport board. The other night the hon, member for Charlotte made a scathing denunciation of trading relations with central Canada and of present government policy, and condemned the present situation as between the maritime provinces and central Canada. This is remarkable when one considers that this government has been in office continuously, with the exception of the depression years, since 1921. It might be worth while for me to read what the hon. member for Charlotte said, as reported on page 2785 of Hansard:
I often wonder if the people of Ontario and Quebec realize just exactly the position we are in down in the maritimes. There is nothing that we have to offer that they want in central Canada. We are obliged to go to our neighbours to the south of us in order to sell our products. But when we bring that money back into Canada, if there is anything that we might want for our homes we have to go to Ontario and pay two prices for it.
That is a serious denunciation of the government's policies as they affect the maritimes. The freight rates with central Canada are excessive and it is most difficult for the producers of natural products in the maritime provinces to get their goods to the markets of central Canada. I am not going to follow that up except to point out that this matter is exceedingly important to the maritime provinces and we are not satisfied with what has been done by the government, by the minister or his predecessors in order to make it more profitable for us to trade with central Canada and attain that measure of prosperity we should have.
I am going to take a few minutes to refer to canals, to the Chignecto canal. The building of this canal has been before this house ever since confederation. The hon. member for Royal has brought it up recently, as well as the hon. member for Queens and the hon. member for Gloucester. This session it was brought up by the hon. member for Saint-John-Albert, the hon. member for Antigonish-Guysborough and other hon. members.

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A committee has been set up in the maritime provinces to press for the construction of this canal. Many agree with me, that there is sufficient information in the hands of the department to permit them to announce a policy for the construction of this canal. We heard yesterday, and again today, oft repeated reference to the St. Lawrence canal. Everyone in central Canada seems to be straining at the leash to get that canal and power development under way. More than $350 million has been expended in central Canada on canals, and though the Chignecto canal was promised to us from the days of confederation, nothing has yet been done for us.
The minister has had this matter brought repeatedly to his personal attention and I am going to ask him to make an announcement today. I base this request on the premise that it is due to the maritime provinces, that it will have strategic defence value, that it will be commercially worth while and will provide needed employment as well. There should be sufficient information on the records to show that it is feasible. Engineers report possibilities of large power development.
I should like the minister to state what the government proposes to do in connection with the construction of this canal. If the minister states that he has not sufficient surveying and engineering data available, competent men should be appointed by the federal government and recommended by this Chignecto canal committee, which has been doing such good work in the maritime provinces. We would then know where we were. A declaration of policy should be made immediately by the government.


Clarence Gillis: A couple of weeks ago I asked the minister what progress has been made on the Canso project and he promised to make a statement on his estimates.


Mr. Chevrier:: That item is considerably down on the list and perhaps I shall say something on it when we reach the item. With all the respect that is due to the committee I should like to remind it that this is the third day we have had the estimates of the Department of Transport before us. If there is to be a full discussion, of course I am prepared to answer all questions, but I should like to draw that fact to the attention of the committee at this time.
The hon. member for Cumberland made certain statements with regard to transportation generally and I am sorry that I must disagree entirely and fully with what he said about the manner in which transportation services in the maritime provinces are handled. I am sorry that I have not the

data at my fingertips to confront the hon. member with what has been done transporta-tionwise in the maritime provinces.
The chief matter with which the hon. member seems to be concerned at the moment is the building of the Chignecto canal. If one were to take for granted everything that has been said, one would come to the conclusion that little or nothing had been done by the Department of Transport or the government in connection with the building of this canal. As the hon. member has said, there is a great deal of data in the files of the department but that data indicates clearly that from an economic point of view this is not the time to build the Chignecto canal.
When I say that that indicates that this is not the time, I refer to the last report made in 1931. I would say to my hon. friend that in view of the representations that have been received from the maritime provinces and elsewhere- since the beginning of the session and a short time before; in view of the further fact that the evidence now in the department is against the building of the canal from an economic standpoint-


Percy Chapman Black: There has not been a canal built in Canada on an economic basis from the viewpoint of traffic.


Lionel Chevrier: If the hon. gentleman will permit me to complete my statement he can ask his questions afterward. I was saying that I would be prepared to give consideration to the appointment of a board of engineers to ascertain if in view of all the circumstances that exist today and which have changed since the last report was made it would be economical to construct this canal, having due regard to the possibilities of power development.


Percy Chapman Black: I point out again that, unless power development was also involved, there has not been a canal built in Canada on a purely economic basis. All canals are operated free of tolls. I would point out that there are hundreds of millions of tons of iron ore which will be looking for a market in the eastern United States, which will make use of this canal at a great saving in transportation charges.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canals service-
912. Canals service - administration - further amount required, $2,500.
Heber Harold Hatfield: Has item 911 been carried?


Lionel Chevrier: What was the question?


Heber Harold Hatfield: Has item 911 been carried?


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Item 911.

911. Departmental administration-further amount required, $20,000.


Percy Chapman Black: How	much
revenue has been received by the department from the operation of canals? In the main estimates the annual amount appropriated for canals service is $7,501,000.


Lionel Chevrier: For the last fiscal year the revenue was $1,756,000.


Percy Chapman Black: From	what
canals was that revenue secured, and was it from use for power purposes or transportation?


Lionel Chevrier: It was for leases for power purposes and other revenue accruing to the department from all the canals under the administration.


Percy Chapman Black: Was there any revenue for transportation purposes?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to be clear as to what items have been passed in this department, and what the program is. For example, did we carry 453, or does it still stand?


Lionel Chevrier: We carried both 453 and 454. Just a moment ago we carried 455, and I understand we are on 456 now.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Are we on 456, or has the chairman called 911?


Joseph-Alfred Dion: I will call the main estimates first, and the supplementaries afterwards.


Stanley Howard Knowles: You have not yet called 911?


Joseph-Alfred Dion: I called it.


Mr. Fulton:: Are we on item 911?


Heber Harold Hatfield: What item are we on?


Stanley Howard Knowles: We started today on 455,


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Item 455 is carried.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I want to say something on item 911. Tell me when you are calling it.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: I called it, but if you prefer to deal with the main estimates now I will take them first.


Stanley Howard Knowles: And then come back to item 911 afterwards.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is all right.
Item stands.
Canals service-
456. Canals-operation and maintenance, $3,809,650.


Howard Charles Green: I have a question on item 456 which also applies to item 457. There has
Sup p ly-Transport
been a substantial increase in both these votes, and I do not think there has been any increase in the mileage of canals in operation in Canada. Will the minister explain why it is there is such a large increase?


Lionel Chevrier: In the first case the increase is due almost entirely to increases in salary. In the second case the increase is due to the construction of a tunnel under the Lachine canal, which amounts to over $1 million, the revote being $910,000.


Howard Charles Green: There has also been a large increase in the number of personnel. Why was that necessary?


Lionel Chevrier: I am informed there has been no increase in personnel.


Howard Charles Green: If the minister will refer to page 276 of the estimates he will see that under canals operation and maintenance there is an increase of nearly 100. What was the reason for that?


Lionel Chevrier: I am informed there is no over-all increase. The increase referred to by my hon. friend is a transfer from one division of the department to another, and also from temporary personnel to permanent.


Howard Charles Green: The vote for temporary assistance is $150,000 higher for this fiscal year than it was in the last. There would not seem to be very much of a switch from temporaries to permanents, when one considers this amount.


Lionel Chevrier: I am told that is due to higher rates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
458. To provide for expenses in connection with St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations, $20,000.
Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like information as to whether anything under this item is allocated to survey or development work or investigation in connection with what is commonly known as the St. Lawrence seaway project, or is it entirely for existing navigational facilities?


Lionel Chevrier: Indirectly it is survey work. It is survey work in connection with the Lachine section of the St. Lawrence waterway. There was a report made under the supervision of a board of engineers, the chairman of which was Mr. R. A. C. Henry, and it was tabled in the house.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
460. Marine service administration, $17,830.
Mr. Drew:: Under this item I wish to direct some remarks to the administration of the marine service generally.

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On November 21 the Minister of Trade and Commerce read a report, on behalf of the Minister of Transport, who was not present at the time, giving what purported to be a summary of the findings of the Kellock commission in regard to the Noronic tragedy. At page 1991 of Hansard for November 21, I find that the following are the opening words in the presentation of the report:
I wish to give the house a summary of the report of the court of investigation into the loss of the steamship Noronic by fire on September 17 last.
What follows is a summary which was read to the house and appears in the record. In the report there was reference at a number of places to the outstanding examples of negligence which had contributed in some way to what took place. At one point I find these words:
Moreover, complete complacency had descended upon both the ship officers and the management. The fire which actually occurred found officers and crew without any organization designed to deal with such a situation.
I do not suggest that these words in any way failed to interpret correctly the situation which existed so far as the shipowners, officers and management are concerned as it appeared from the evidence. But there is one consideration which I think should be in the minds of hon. members. This was one of the most important statements made to the house during the present session. A tragedy had occurred which shocked not only members of the house, but every Canadian, and I imagine also every citizen of the United States who read of that disastrous fire and its appalling consequences. For this reason special significance attaches to this report, because everyone is concerned about the possibility and the danger of fire. No one with a sense of responsibility would refuse to do everything possible to prevent tragedies that result from fire breaking out where human beings are in a position of danger. It was essential, therefore, that a balanced picture of what was contained in the report should be presented to the members of this house, and, through the reporting of proceedings here, to the people of Canada.
What actually was not contained in the summary was a very important part of the findings of that report. When the summary used the expression that "complete complacency had descended upon both the ship officers and the management", it should have added that the report made it clear that complete complacency had descended upon the inspection staff of the Department of Transport, which was charged with this responsibility.
None of us here has any desire to direct unpleasant criticism at anyone, but we would

not be doing our duty if we did not make sure that all the lessons to be gained from this report are placed before the members of the house and the people of Canada. Such a summary as was presented to hon. members, purporting to give a balanced picture of a finding of this kind, should have contained every essential consideration that might be in the minds of those who read it. That, I must say, is not my interpretation of this summary as I compare it with the report of the court of investigation set up by the minister under Mr. Justice Kellock, acting as commissioner.
On page 9 of the report, under the heading "Legislation, including regulations", I find these words:
Before dealing with the actual events of the night in question, it is relevant to consider the background of legislation and regulations to which the ship and its owners were subject.
Then the report goes on to deal with fire-resistant bulkheads, and says:
Under the provisions of section 405 (1) (a) of the Canada Shipping Act, regulations were passed on the 7th of July, 1939.
It goes on to review certain regulations in regard to bulkheads, and on page 10 I find
these words:
The Noronic was built in 1913 and had been constructed without any fire-resisting bulkheads. She was not required to comply with the provisions of regulation 47, the exemption taking the form of a certificate stating that the ship had complied with the regulations.
I want to repeat that sentence:
She was not required to comply with the provisions of regulation 47, the exemption taking the form of a certificate stating that the ship had complied with the regulations. There is nothing in the records of the board as to the reason for this decision but the evidence indicates that other existing ships were similarly treated. As far as the Noronic is concerned, it was not impracticable, on the evidence, to install fire-resisting bulkheads in accordance with the regulations. It must therefore be assumed that the chairman considered that, from the standpoint of expense, it would be unreasonable to require compliance.
I do not intend to extend my remarks on that point beyond saying that when the parliament of Canada passes certain laws imposing certain responsibilities, and employees in the service of Canada are entrusted with the duty of carrying out those laws and the regulations thereunder, where danger to human life is involved no official in the public service of Canada has the right to take upon himself the responsibility of saying that, because of cost, safety measures which are clearly laid down shall not be complied with. This is simply another evidence of the tendency to suspend the law being carried from government to officials of government. It is not something that stands by itself alone; it is evidence of a tendency we have seen in other cases as well.

On page 16, after devoting several pages to the whole question of inspection, the report contains these words:
The government inspector, who inspected the ship annually, and his superior, were of opinion that if two hydrants on a particular deck were not sufficiently close to a particular point to enable two separate hoses to be brought to bear on such a locality, the regulation would be satisfied if it would be possible to bring a hose from the deck above or the deck beneath. In practice this had never been done at any fire drill and, in my opinion, such an operation should not have been relied on . . .
Then on page 17-and all this part deals with the question of regulations, inspections, and compliance with the law-I see these words:
As to regulation 6, which deals with the provision for making available two powerful jets of water in the coal bunker spaces, boiler rooms and engine rooms, there was only one hydrant capable of supplying a single hose in the engine room and boiler rooms. The inspector said in evidence that in that situation he could not say that regulation had been complied with, although the certificate which he issued to the owners states that the statute had been complied with.
In other words, according to the evidence of the inspector he could not actually substantiate an important certificate which stated that a statute, upon which human safety depended, had been complied with.
Again, after reviewing the subject further, and going into further details of safety measures which were not carried out, I come to these words on page 18:
The inspection consisted of lifting up each extinguisher for the purpose of seeing whether or not it had been charged and in turning two or three upside down to ascertain if they would operate. It was impossible for the inspector therefore to say, from such an inspection, that the requirements of the regulation as to the provision of the necessary number of extinguishers "in each enclosed space occupied by passengers or crew" on each deck, had been satisfied. Such an inspection does not attain the real purpose of the regulation, namely, that a sufficient number of fire extinguishers ready for instant use shall be in position on each deck.
Then, in a discussion of the subject of pumps, I come to these words in the report:
The Noronic, at the time of the fire, had complied with this regulation as to the number of pumps, but all three considered by the inspector as complying with the regulation were in fact "fitted in the same space," contrary to the express provision of the regulation.
By virtue of the fact that they were fitted in the same space, they did not comply with the regulation. I am going to refer to the next page in a moment, but I want to point out that this review of the regulations and the failure to enforce them appears in the report before the general discussion of the failure of the management and officials to carry out their responsibilities. I believe that it must be the opinion of most if not all of
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the members of the house that those inspections and those standards which are imposed under the laws passed by parliament must be the starting point of those measures of safety which we expect to be enforced in ships, vehicles or anything else carrying human beings. The attitude of the commissioner as to the effect of this failure by the inspector and others to insist upon compliance with the regulations is clearly indicated in these words found at page 20 of the report, and this is in regard to smoke helmets and safety lamps:
I venture to think that the laxity in the particulars mentioned above in requiring compliance with the regulations could only induce or encourage a similar laxity on the part of the owners and officers of the ship with respect to the vital matter of preparedness for fire.
Those words come at the end of the review of the various regulations and the failure to insist upon compliance with them. It indicates that the commissioner was clearly of the opinion that the failure to insist upon compliance with those regulations by the inspector and other officials had not only made possible a disaster of this kind but had actually induced or encouraged a similar laxity on the part of the owners and officers of the ship.
Let us see what happened to those concerned where there had been laxity. We had read into the records of the house the decision by the court that the captain of the ship lost his right to command that ship as a result of his laxity, and there can be no doubt about the measure of responsibility upon the shipowners and management, through the evidence of laxity there. But surely when the commissioner appointed by the minister to carry out the provisions of an act of this parliament, and to report to this parliament, says that the laxity of the government official actually induced or encouraged the laxity that was reported to the house, then I think we should have known that fact at the same time. But in any event, now that we know of it, we should insist that the laxity of the government official shall be dealt with with the same severity that was regarded as necessary for the prevention of similar accidents in other cases in the future.
We have a civil service of which we have every reason to be proud; but the standards of that civil service will not be maintained or elevated by any suggestion that civil servants are not subject to the same standards and the same tests of responsibility as are those whom they must instruct in the requirements under any act passed by this parliament. If under the laws passed by the parliament of Canada certain penalties are imposed upon others for laxity, then it will be in keeping with our attitude toward the standards of our civil service to make sure

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that a similar attitude is adopted where laxity of this kind induced other laxity which produced tragedy such as that which occurred in this case. There was no mention of that matter in the report; but on December 3, some time after we were given the information, a Canadian Press dispatch was reported in the press. It gave no names of any people who had been dealt with but it stated:
A transport department steamship inspection official has been reprimanded by transport minister Chevrier as a result of the Noronic fire, it was learned today.
The official came before Mr. Chevrier who rebuked him for "laxity" in signing the certificate which allowed the vessel to ply lake waters.
I do not think that the laxity which the commissioner, Mr. Justice Kellock, said was a laxity that induced and encouraged the other laxity which resulted in tragedy is dealt with sufficiently by a rebuke.


Lionel Chevrier: May I inform my hon. friend immediately that, contrary to what is stated in the report read by my hon. friend, no inspector came before me nor was any inspector rebuked by me in connection with laxity.


George Alexander Drew: From that do I take it that no action has been taken?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


George Alexander Drew: Then I think that is exceedingly serious.


Lionel Chevrier: You may not take that from it. But when a report is read by an hon. gentleman in this chamber, and the report is not even anywhere near the truth, then surely the person who is alleged to have made it can say whether he made it or not. I repeat that on no occasion did there come before me an inspector of the steamship inspection branch of the department who was rebuked. I will deal with what was done when I reply; but that is the position with regard to the press release read by my hon. friend.


George Alexander Drew: I think it would perhaps facilitate a discussion of this matter, Mr. Chairman, if the minister would say whether he has taken steps to deal with the laxity reported in this case.


Lionel Chevrier: I will deal with that in a moment, if I may.


George Alexander Drew: If that is so, then I will defer my further remarks until I have heard what actually happened; because there is a report there by the commissioner which should have been placed before the house but which was not placed before the house in the summary that was read. We have the report, it is true; and on reading that report we find what the

facts are. On the basis of the recommendations of the commissioner, I think it is quite clear that action in regard to the failure of the government official or officials to deal with this matter was clearly indicated, and I for one should like to hear what action was taken.


Lionel Chevrier: I think the committee will agree that a tragedy such as that which happened at the Canada Steamship Lines dock in the city of Toronto is one which is so serious that not the slightest attempt should be made by any hon. gentleman in the committee or elsewhere to make capital of it in any sense of the word. In saying that, I am not suggesting that that is what my hon. friend had in mind; in fact, I feel that such is not the case. But I wish to make the statement that the tragedy was of such a nature that we should approach both the report and the recommendations in the light of the evidence that came before the commissioner.
I think my hon. friend stated that, in the statement read to the house by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, while much was made of the laxity of the owners and the captain, nothing was said about the laxity of the steamship inspection. Am I correct in that?


George Alexander Drew: What I said was that the laxity was duly reported in regard to the steamship owners and the captain but that, so far as I am aware, it is not in regard to the officials who dealt with them.


Lionel Chevrier: The report which I have before me, and which were the notes read by the Minister of Trade and Commerce-


Howard Charles Green: What date was that?


Lionel Chevrier: The exact date to which my hon. friend referred. The report contained a very express reference to steamship inspection. On the fourth page of the statement made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce I find these words:
The commissioner expresses the opinion that the laxity of the inspection in requiring compliance with the regulations could only induce or encourage a similar laxity on the part of the owners and officers of the ship with respect to the vital matter of preparedness for fire.
My hon. friend says that there was no reference-or at least that is the purport that I took from his remarks-in the statement made by my colleague to the laxity of the officer in the division of steamship inspection.


George Alexander Drew: There is no summary of the details in the report in that respect. There may be reasons for that. But I do want to point out that what I read was a reference

to the complacency which had descended- and which I said had obviously also occurred to the commissioner-upon the department, and that that should have been brought in in a balanced report which would clearly indicate the relationship-


Lionel Chevrier: There is clear reference to that in the statement made by the minister. In any event, the report was tabled in the house. The report is a lengthy one and evidently it would not be possible to make a statement covering all of the facts and all of the circumstances that were contained in it.
My hon. friend has dealt with some of the statements contained in the report and has read from some of the evidence in the report; but he omitted some that have a very material bearing. For instance, I refer to that part dealing with fire-resisting bulkheads, and the exemption which, under the regulations, the chairman of the steamship inspection board has the discretion to grant in a particular case. The report goes on to say that the regulation providing for fire-resisting bulkheads was made in 1939, and steamship inspection decided that it would not be practical to make the regulation retroactive to ships which were then in existence. That is a practice which exists not only in Canada but in the United States. I am informed it is the practice that exists all over the world. When new regulations are made dealing with technical changes of this importance, having to do with steamship inspection, rarely if ever are they made retroactive. Therefore, what the chairman of steamship inspection was doing on that particular occasion he was doing in conformity with what I am informed had been done in most countries of the world and in the United States.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interrupt, but what it says on page 10 is:
As far as the Noronic is concerned, it was not impracticable, on the evidence, to install fire-resisting bulkheads in accordance with the regulations. It must therefore be assumed that the chairman considered that, from the standpoint of expense, it would be unreasonable to require compliance.
That is a very different reason.


Lionel Chevrier: Not at all. The point which I am making is that this regulation applied to ships other than the Noronic.


George Alexander Drew: Oh, yes.


Lionel Chevrier: And ships in the same position as the Noronic in so far as putting that regulation into force was concerned. Notwithstanding that, they were exempted from the operation of that regulation, and they were exempted for the reason that I gave a
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moment ago. I am not going to say wisely, because of the recommendation made by the commissioner. But nonetheless the Noronic cannot be pointed out as being an exception, because all other similar passenger ships were exempted from that regulation.
My hon. friend went on to read from pages of the report concerning fire extinguishers and fire extinguishing equipment. May I draw to the attention of my hon. friend what the commissioner said at the end of the first paragraph on page 17. He said:
In any event, it does not appear that the failure to extinguish the fire at a stage when that would have been possible, was due to any deficiency in the number of location of hydrants.
Dealing with the same subject the commissioner said at the end of the page:
Again, it should be said, however, that noncompliance with this regulation did not prejudice the situation at the time of the fire.
He deals with the steamship inspector, the very inspector, the only inspector from the steamship division, who gave evidence as to the actual inspection of that ship. He condemns that inspector because of the fact that instead of going about the ship and examining the hydrants, the fire extinguishing equipment, the helmets, et cetera, the inspector collected them all on the deck, examined them there and gave a certificate just as if they had been examined on the spot.
In giving the report which he did I believe that the steamship inspector was not stating the facts as they were, and in that respect he was guilty of laxity. Let me tell my hon. friend that the commissioner deals with him and him alone because there was no other person who gave evidence on the actual examination, save and except another officer from steamship inspection 'who gave evidence on the regulations and who is not singled out in this particular report.
Dealing with the pumps and with the evidence of that inspector to whom I referred a moment ago the commissioner states at the bottom of page 19:
It cannot be said, however, on the evidence before me, that the location of the pumps in breach of the regulation was the cause of this failure.
There is only one place in his report, and that is on page 20, where the commissioner refers to the laxity in the particulars above referred to as read by my hon. friend. The recommendations are there. They are too numerous to read at this time. They are there and can be read, but I do not want to take up the time of the committee unduly. They contain no recommendation in so far as the inspection division of the Department of Transport is concerned. They contain a number of other

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recommendations; and here I can tell the committee that at no time did I ask Inspector Craig to come before me, nor did I reprimand him. What I did was to call before me the deputy chairman of the steamship inspection branch. I discussed with him the regulations and the recommendations. I indicated to him certain parts of the report, particularly that part on page 20, which had to do with laxity, and which was directed at one man and one man alone. I cannot for one moment concede that a conclusion based upon the evidence of one individual could be directed at other individuals who were not examined and who did not give evidence before the court of inquiry. So that the position I am taking and the point I am making now is that condemnation of the commissioner, in so far as laxity is concerned, is directed at one man, that individual who gave evidence on that occasion and who inspected the Noronic.
My information is that the inspector is a man of some years. I discussed with the deputy chairman of the steamship inspection board the question of his position. In view of the fact that the man is about to retire, and has reached the retiring age-in fact I believe he has gone beyond the retiring age- it was decided that no action would be taken by way of dismissal. But the contents of the report have not yet been fully considered in so far as the recommendations are concerned, because I have not yet come to the conclusion whether or not it will be necessary to bring in legislation, or whether or not this report can be implemented in another way.
In any event I can assure the house that no one realizes the seriousness of the position any more than my officials and I do. I have no hesitation in announcing that the recommendations of the commissioner will be put into effect just as quickly as that is possible, in order that tragedies of this sort or fires of this kind be not repeated in our country.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Chairman, no one will wish to see anyone suffer unnecessarily; but the finding is inescapable by the commissioner, on evidence which he regarded as adequate-and he is a most experienced judge-that the laxity in the various particulars which he mentioned, and to which I referred by quotations indicating the nature of the findings, could only induce or encourage similar laxity on the part of the owners and officers of the ship.
The fact that the minister has just explained that what occurred in connection with the Noronic was not an exception, but that similar situations existed in other ships as well, merely emphasizes that the necessity for inspection is one of the features emerging

from this report, and that it is essential that in future there be certainty from the administrative point of view that the provisions for inspection and supervision shall be strictly adhered to.
While it is true that in one case there was a discretionary provision, there were other cases where certificates were given which really stated something which in one instance the witness knew nothing about or was not sure about, and in the other case the witness made a statement contrary to actual fact.
Those matters do require the most vigorous attention. Even without new statutory provisions, this report certainly emphasizes the necessity for the utmost vigour in dealing with this particular matter.
I wish to make it clear-and I believe the record of my remarks will bear this out- that I said I did not suggest that there was any misinterpretation of the actual finding, but that I would emphasize the complacency that had descended upon the management and those charged with the direction of the ship, and the fact also that it should have been brought home to us that such complacency had apparently existed at a point where it induced the possibility of a situation of this kind.
I have nothing further to add to these remarks, beyond saying that I welcome the assurance that the report will be acted upon. I do feel also that in cases of this kind, where human life is possibly in jeopardy if the regulations are not complied with, the most severe standards should be required from those whose actions will determine the actions of those whose activities are inspected.


Howard Charles Green: While this disaster occurred on the great lakes, it has been one of great concern to people on the west coast, because we travel extensively by ship. I am greatly concerned about the minister's statement to the effect that when these new regulations to ensure safety become operative they are not to be made applicable to ships already built. If that rule is strictly followed it means that only those ships built after the time the regulations come into effect will be subject to these safety measures.
It is obvious from the Noronic disaster that if that ship had been forced to comply with the new regulations there would have been no tragedy. Had the regulations been made to apply to the ships already plying the great lakes it is not likely the tragedy would have occurred. I hope the department will not take the stand that safety regulations enacted in the future need not apply to ships already in operation. Certainly these safety measures

should be made to apply to all ships. I should like to have some further word from the minister on that point.
The Minister of Trade and Commerce, when he made his statement, indicated that there would be some sort of investigation into the question of whether there should be amendments to the Canada Shipping Act and other legislation, and whether changes should be made in the regulations. Will the Minister of Transport tell us what steps are being taken to investigate those two points? Is there some body within his department reviewing the statutes and regulations, or is there to be some body outside the Department of Transport? Will representations be heard from the various bodies across the country which are interested in the safety of ships at sea? If there is some group, departmental or otherwise, investigating the act and the regulations, provision should be made for representations from across the country.


Lionel Chevrier: Dealing first with that part of my hon. friend's remarks which dealt with ships on the Pacific coast, my reply would be that our steamship inspection service following this report has been given instructions to make a complete investigation of all ships on the west coast, for safety purposes, and to make sure that the steamship inspection regulations are enforced. That is being done at the moment. Part of it has been done this week and the rest of it will be done early next week. My hon. friend has said that if the regulations with regard to fire-resistant bulkheads had been put into force there would have been no fire.


Howard Charles Green: I did not deal with any specific regulation. It seemed to me that if the regulations as they existed had been enforced with respect to the Noronic, even though she had been built before some of the regulations came into effect, it is quite probable there would have been no disaster. I am hitting at the failure to make the regulations apply to a ship built before they were brought in.


Lionel Chevrier: That is a difficult thing to say; that is conjecture.


Howard Charles Green: I realize that.


Lionel Chevrier: One cannot say whether there would or would not have been a disaster, particularly when one is dealing with an act of God. One never knows when an act of God is going to occur, or under what circumstances or conditions. I venture to say, although this is also conjecture, that if this tragedy had taken place at sea the position would have been infinitely better. However, I do not want to get into a long discussion.
My hon. friend asked whether these regulations or the legislation would be made
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retroactive. The regulation with regard to fire-resistant bulkheads on passenger ships has been in existence since 1939, but all passenger ships in the class of the Noronic were exempted at the discretion of the steamship inspection service. The commissioner recommends that fire-resistant bulkheads be installed in ships so that-


Howard Charles Green: Even in the older ships.


Lionel Chevrier: Even in the older ships. If we carry out that recommendation it would meet the point raised by my hon. friend. With reference to changes in the Canada Shipping Act, there is a departmental committee which deals with changes to be made from time to time in the act. That committee will deal with these recommendations and any other changes that are likely to be made. It will consult from time to time with public bodies as to the necessity of making changes.


Howard Charles Green: Will an opportunity be given to make recommendations to that committee?


Lionel Chevrier: I would not say that. I remember the difficulty we got into with the C.S.U. when we amended the regulations before, but I will say that that committee will consult those who are interested, the shipowners and others.


John Lambert Gibson: In changing the regulations the government should be careful that it is not starting on a witch-hunt. There are certain inherent risks in connection with travel by sea, air or rail. If changes are to be made in the regulation so that the older ships must instal fire-resistant bulkheads, I am sure that would be desirable but these things should be economical as well. Unless the fare-paying passengers are prepared to pay substantially higher rates, they will either go without steamship services or be ready to permit a degree of latitude to some operators.


Lionel Chevrier: I am glad the hon. member brought up that point. It has always been a fact in the Department of Transport that more requests are received for relaxing the regulations than for tightening them up; in fact I would say the ratio is almost 95 per cent to five in favour of relaxing the regulations. Because of this tragedy I do not think there is any other conclusion we can come to but that these will have to be enforced. However, this would apply only to passenger ships and in so far as they are concerned I do not think it will be too much of a hardship.


Howard Charles Green: It is only natural that there would be more representations for relaxing the regulations because they would come from those who are operating the ships. The

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passenger whose life is endangered because the regulations are not enforced is not in position to make representations to the minister. The people who have to travel on these ships have no way of knowing what the regulations are. The first thing they know there is a fire, a wreck occurs or there is carelessness of some kind which costs them their lives. After all, these regulations were not designed to help the operators; they were designed to save lives. I do hope that the minister and his department will see that proper regulations are prepared and that there is a careful official inspection of these ships.


Joseph William Noseworthy: The minister has referred to certain items in the report to indicate that the laxity of inspection in connection with the Noronic did not contribute to the disaster. There are a number of places in the report where that statement is made. I should like to direct attention to a paragraph on page 20 which deals with the question of laxity of inspection and non-compliance with the regulations.
I doubt if the minister or anyone else can estimate the extent to which the laxity of inspection which is quite evident from this report actually did contribute to the disaster that befell this ship. I have read the report carefully and have discussed it with a number of seamen sailing the great lakes. I agree with them when they say that, as far as the inspection reported here is concerned, the inspector referred to might just as well have been hired and paid by the shipowners. There is every indication here that the only persons being considered in that inspection were the shipowners. The inspection of pumps and fire hose and extinguishers, the enforcement of the regulations with regard to fire-resistant bulkheads and fire patrols, all seemed to be made in the interest of the shipowners.
I am sure many people in this country would feel much happier if they knew that these regulations and the whole matter of inspection were going to be tightened up.


Gordon Francis Higgins: A short time ago I asked the minister a question with regard to the regulations governing the number of people to be carried from Port aux Basques to Sydney and from Sydney to Port aux Basques. If new regulations have been enacted I shall have no more to say about this.


Lionel Chevrier: I am informed that there is no difference in the regulations governing traffic one way or the other.


Gordon Francis Higgins: If you will bear with me for a couple of minutes, may I say in that case the situation cannot have changed. I made a

trip up here on the 8th of September, and I do not mind going back tomorrow or the next day, but certainly if I have to come back again, as I likely will in the early months of the coming year, I am a little bit anxious about it. The situation is that there is a definite load limit on the boats for passengers from North Sydney to Port aux Basques, but the men on the ships tell me that there is no limit from Port aux Basques to North Sydney. I have seen people lying on the floor of the saloon and in the passageways. I have seen them seasick, and it is a most unpleasant sight. Not only is it unpleasant; the situation is definitely unsafe, and the officers of the ships are worried.
There is not sufficient lifeboat accommodation, and I am quite certain there would be a real tragedy if by any chance anything happened. I am not prepared to say who would be responsible. I merely draw the matter to your attention again. I think it is a most serious situation. I am not altogether speaking without some knowledge of it. As I informed the house before, I happen to be associated with the union that mans these ships, and the men and the masters are most worried about it. I feel that precautions should be taken as quickly as possible. I am sure the minister knows the matter to which I am referring.


Lionel Chevrier: I am glad my hon. friend has brought the situation to my attention. It is a matter of importance, and I will see that Canadian National Railways, who operate the service, are advised of it immediately.


Gordon Francis Higgins: There is one other matter. It is rather difficult to try to talk about freight rates in Newfoundland when you are using ships and railways.


Lionel Chevrier: May I remind the hon. member there are two items dealing specifically with freight rates.


Gordon Francis Higgins: We can do that afterwards.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, if he will allow this item to pass.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I have two further questions which I am sure will not be controversial. I believe the minister will be able to answer them very readily under this item. What is the position as to the Clarenville boats? May we have a statement as to the question of future ownership? Does the C.N.R. propose to take them over? Primarily I am concerned in the one instance with the fact that the men who man these boats have been told they are not entitled to be regarded as pensionable. In other words, the boats are looked upon as being the property of the provincial government. They are operated by the C.N.R., and

the men on the boats have been told they will not be pensioned because they are not entitled to be regarded as members of the C.N.R. organization.


Lionel Chevrier: I can tell the hon. gentleman that the Clarenville boats, as already stated, are the property of the Newfoundland government. The dominion government has no intention of purchasing them. The Canadian National Railways operate one or two, or perhaps three, on a management fee basis for the government of Newfoundland, and so far as I know they do not intend to buy them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
462. Nautical service administration, $490,670.
Howard Charles Green: Item 462 deals with the nautical service, and under that branch of the department training is given to merchant seamen. The branch also arranges for the distribution of war medals and memorial crosses to dependent relatives of merchant seamen who have lost their lives. Earlier in the session we had a discussion, in which both the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Veterans Affairs were involved, concerning the present provision for vocational training for merchant seamen. As the order in council reads at the present time, the only men who were able to qualify were those who were under thirty years of age, and applications had to be made by the end of June of this year.
It has been pointed out that there were a great many men who were unable to qualify. As a matter of fact, I asked a question earlier in the session and received the reply that out of 770 applications which had been made only 321, less than half, had been able to qualify for training. I have no intention of going over the merits of the request for changed regulations. Both ministers know the picture.
When we were discussing the matter before I understood that active consideration was then being given to introducing an amendment to the order in council in order that more of these men might qualify. I think some of us urged that the age limit should be withdrawn. Each case has to be dealt with separately; in any event, there is wide discretion as to whether or not training should be given. We also urged that the deadline for applications should be lifted. I believe the Department of Veterans Affairs is so organized and equipped that it could carry on more extended vocational training. I should like to ask the Minister of Transport whether any change is to be made in the order in council.
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Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, there are two points involved. First there is a group of merchant seamen who were cut off because they did not make their applications within the specified time. Consideration has been given to that point. There is also the other point that too many merchant seamen, because of the strict interpretation of the order, were being deprived of vocational training.


Howard Charles Green: There was also the question of age.


Lionel Chevrier: That includes age. I may tell my hon. friend, and the hon. member for Vancouver East who is interested in the question and who raised it one night together with the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra, that the Minister of Veterans Affairs and I have consulted and have agreed on the necessity of some action being taken, but the matter has not yet been brought to the attention of our colleagues. I am hopeful that it will, but that is all I can say at the moment.


Howard Charles Green: I am very glad to get that word from the minister. I should like to point out that the report of the Canadian maritime commission recommends a further drastic reduction in the Canadian merchant marine, which means there will be jobs at sea for fewer men, and consequently all the more need for vocational training.


Lionel Chevrier: The matter is being carefully considered.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I want to ask the minister again whether there is any possibility whatsoever of Newfoundland merchant seamen who served in war zones being brought within the class of people who received the 10 per cent bonus. The only reason given for not doing so is that they were not in the manning pool at the time. Newfoundland war veterans have received the same benefits as other Canadian war veterans. In fact the new province received all the benefits given any of the older provinces of Canada, except in this one instance. These men served in the same waters, endured the same hardships and certainly paid with their lives in the same way, but merely because they were not in the manning pool they did not receive the same benefits. Is there any chance of ameliorating that ruling, if there is a ruling?


Lionel Chevrier: The two bonuses my hon. friend refers to were applicable to a group of seamen who joined the merchant navy under certain circumstances during the war. Unless those bonuses, the effective date of which has expired, were made retroactive

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they could not be applied to Newfoundland seamen. Any future order of course would take them in; but while I could give the matter consideration I would have little hope that those orders could be made retroactive.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Would the minister give the matter serious consideration, because the situation arose only because they were not in the manning pool?


Lionel Chevrier: I will.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
469.	Administration of pilotage, including authority for temporary recoverable advances; contributions, and the operation and maintenance, as required, of necessary pilot vessels in certain pilotage districts, $270,965.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I have just one question. Does the marine office at Ottawa have jurisdiction over pilotage or over the pilots at the port of Charlottetown? There have always been disputes there between the pilots and the ships they pilot.


Lionel Chevrier: No, the Ottawa office has no jurisdiction over that group of pilots. They are under their own pilotage association.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
470.	Life saving service including rewards for saving life (revote $129,240), $404,710.
Gordon Francis Higgins: Some time ago the minister gave a brief statement on the possible co-ordination of the life saving services. I wonder if he is in a position to say anything further in that connection.


Lionel Chevrier: I covered the matter very fully on one occasion, and I do not think I can add anything at this time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
471.	To provide subsidies for wrecking plants- Quebec and British Columbia, $65,000.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister state to which companies these payments are made, and in what amounts?


Lionel Chevrier: There are two companies, one in Quebec and one in British Columbia. The Quebec company receives $40,000 and the British Columbia company $25,000.


Howard Charles Green: What are the names of the companies?


Lionel Chevrier: The Pacific Salvage and Wrecking Company and the Quebec Salvage and Wrecking Company Limited.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
JMr Chevrier.]
473. Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping, including grants as detailed in the estimates; and provision to settle claims by the board of trade, London, England, for expenses incurred, in respect of Canadian distressed seamen of British ships registered out of Canada, $106,207.
Gordon Francis Higgins: Does item 718 in the supplementary estimates correspond with this item; and if it does, what does it entail?


Lionel Chevrier: The Newfoundland estimate is in addition to this.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
478. To provide towards the construction of a service vessel for the eastern Arctic patrol (estimated cost $2,400,000)-capital (revote $825,000), $2,100,000.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this
vote?


Lionel Chevrier: This is for the construction of the eastern Arctic patrol vessel, the contract for which was given to Davie Shipbuilding at Lauzon, Quebec. The ship has been launched, and it is expected that it will be ready for operation early next month.


Howard Charles Green: Does that ship patrol into Hudson bay or is it for the north Atlantic?


Lionel Chevrier: Both the east coast and into the Hudson bay area.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
480. To provide towards the construction of a lightship for the port of Saint John, N.B. (estimated cost $741,850)'-capital (revote $520,000), $681,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: When is it expected that this lightship for the port of Saint John will be completed, and who were the contractors?


Lionel Chevrier: It has been launched and will be in operation by May, 1950. The contractors are Vickers in Montreal.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway Service-
483. Repairs and expenses in connection with the operation and maintenance of official railway cars under the jurisdiction of the department, $64,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister tell us what is the policy and practice with respect to these official railway cars? What does this $64,000 cover? Who pays for hauling the cars, if anyone; and such other information as the minister probably has on his desk just waiting to give us.


Lionel Chevrier: This item concerns five cars, two of which are used by His Excellency the Governor General, one by the Prime Minister, one by the Minister of Transport, and the other for all other ministers. The total of $64,000 is made up of salaries, $15,000; repairs and upkeep of the equipment, $40,000; materials and supplies, $4,000, and sundries,

$4,300. This is the usual item that appears in the estimates of the Department of Transport; and as far as hauling charges are concerned, there are none.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
484. Hudson Bay railway-construction and improvements-capital (revote $80,000), $168,000.
Mr.   Baler@: I should like to take just a moment to say that I think it is in the national interest that the greatest possible use should continue to be made of the port of Churchill and the Hudson Bay railway. On a previous occasion I have mentioned the cattle that might be shipped through that port, and now I should like to read a letter in that connection. The reason I mention this is that, as I said previously, we would like to see some provision made at The Pas by way of stockyards and feeding facilities so that cattle coming from Great Britain could be held there in quarantine. Recently I received this letter from the North Battle-ford board of trade.
Dear Mr. Bater:
We are in receipt of and thank you for your letter of November 25, with which you enclosed a copy of a letter you had addressed to Mr. P. J. Ibbotson, with regard to the establishment of a quarantine station for imported cattle, preferably at The Pas.
We believe Mr. Ibbotson has already left for Great Britain. It is our understanding that his intention is to import two carloads of registered Shorthorn cattle as the initial shipment, and that if this turns out to his satisfaction in all probability he will continue to import cattle.
It would, of course, greatly help the business if facilities were provided so that he could ship via Churchill.
I might add that if cattle could be brought from Scotland to Saskatchewan by this route it would shorten their trip by some 1,200 miles.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item
carry?


Some hon. Members:: Six o'clock.


Louis-René Beaudoin: We might finish the items relating to railway service, if the committee is agreeable.


Percy Ellis Wright: I have a few words to say on this Hudson Bay railway item, but it is now six o'clock.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Major James William Coldwell: Just before we go on with item 484, may I ask the minister a question which may be a little bit off the Hudson Bay railway. Last year I noticed that Premier
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Duplessis had announced that a railway would be constructed immediately-I think according to the newspaper report it was August 14, 1948-from a place called Havre St. Pierre opposite Anticosti island north to Allard lake. No application has come here for any rights or charter. I was wondering just what this railway was, what it is being built for and by whom.


Lionel Chevrier: That railway is being built for the purpose of a company known as the Kennecott Copper Company. Deposits of copper have been found in that area. The railway is twenty-seven miles long. The contract has been let to Fraser-Brace and it is purely a provincial railway.


Major James William Coldwell: Is construction taking place?
Mr Chevrier: I think it is almost complete.


Mr. Helme:: In the house from time to time, in discussing the Hudson Bay railway, figures of 25 million to 40 million bushels have been mentioned as being tributary to that railway. I think all we have to do is to have a good look at the map of the west, and we will be inclined to think that all of the wheat in the province of Saskatchewan is tributary to the Hudson Bay railroad. I wonder if what is meant when the figure of 25 million bushels is mentioned is that that would be a goal at which to strive with regard to handling grain through the Hudson bay.
The season is short up there, we admit; but a couple of years ago I had occasion to talk to Mr. Peter Dalgleish, who is managing director of Dalgleish shipping lines, and he was of the opinion that the season might be lengthened quite a little bit with the help of an icebreaker in clearing ice from the mouth of the Churchill river and away from the elevators at the start of the season and also when the ice was beginning to form at the closing of the season. I should like the minister to give some attention to that suggestion. This afternoon we heard that an icebreaker was being built for use on the Atlantic coast and also for Hudson bay. I would think that in what might be considered the slack time for that icebreaker on the Atlantic and on the Hudson bay itself, it might well be used in helping to clear the ice from the port of Churchill.


Lionel Chevrier: All I can say is that the amount of wheat which was transported over the Hudson Bay railway this year amounted to 5,730,000 bushels. The railway is being used to fairly good capacity. There are some people who think that 25 million bushels should be carried by the railway. I do not know whether or not that can be done. I

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am not in a position to say. But we are hopeful that more than the amount carried this year will be carried in the future.
As to extending the season of navigation, the position is that the season is about twelve to thirteen weeks in length and the question of providing an icebreaker in that area is one that has been given consideration from time to time; but I doubt whether it would be practical to use an icebreaker in the area. The department has been helpful through its national harbours board and through the Canadian National Railways, in assisting the Hudson Bay railway and particularly by reducing the insurance rates by about 25 per cent.


Francis Heselton Helme: I think the facilities there can be extended to handle much more than 5 million or six million bushels. I was glad to hear the minister say that he has the same hopes as I have.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: The progress of the Hudson Bay railway has been slow, at least in the eyes of those of us from the west who have been anxious to promote its use. The minister has heard my opinions on the subject on many previous occasions and I do not propose to make a speech now about the whole matter; but I should like to put before the committee and before him one or two ideas I have with regard to it.
I think that probably a good deal of the trouble is apathy on the part of many people and perhaps hostility on the part of a few. I do not make that latter statement rashly. I have been actively interested in this matter for five years and passively interested previous to that for a number of years. I know something about the problem. I have been up at the port. I have talked to the manager, to many people along the line, and to residents of Churchill itself. I do not like to say this, but I must do so. There is a persistent feeling-whether it be right or wrong

among the people in those areas which the railway might well serve, that there is somehow antagonism here in the east. I know I shall be accused of talking about the big interests and that sort of thing. I want to be reasonable in the matter, but it is true that most of our business operations, both financial and otherwise, are concentrated here in the east. Even in the matter of longshoremen who handle the grain for a few weeks when that port is open, these men are imported in some cases from the port of Montreal. Perhaps that is natural enough, because where you want to engage trained men, you must go to the place where the men are trained. I shall say no more about the matter, but that is a persistent feeling in the west; and it is well that the government should know it.
[Mr. Chevrler.l
I think one of the greatest disadvantages the port has to contend with is the fact that the marine insurance rate is too high. The insurance people are the last ones you would expect to do anything much about this matter because they can insure the cargoes for the present rate. It is not big business and naturally you would not expect them to get excited about lowering that rate. But there is no doubt in my mind, after making an exhaustive study of the matter, that that rate could be lowered. There are really three seasons in Churchill; I will not go into particulars, but one of the seasons is the season which exists in the minds of those insurance people. To my mind that season is much too short. I talked to a captain up there the last time I was at Churchill and he told me that in beautiful weather, in a calm sea with the sun shining, they lay for two days outside the borderline, wherever that is, whatever strait it is, at the mouth of the bay, and he said: We might just as well have been sailing in there, but we could not do so because we knew that if we did we would not be covered by insurance. He told me also that frequently there was a week or ten days after the insurance rate was removed that the port could have been used. I suggest, as I have suggested before in this chamber, that there should not be a fixed season in that particular case; I suggest that in this day and age, with our modern methods of predicting the weather, surely there could be a variation by which these dates could be settled, that the length of this season should not be inflexible as it is at the present time.
Another difficulty of course is storage of wheat in position, and when I say "in position" I mean in such position that such wheat could be profitably shipped out of that port. I know the situation was difficult during the war and since the war because there has been a tremendous demand for wheat. There has been a shortage of wheat and there has often been a necessity to get wheat out within certain time limits in order to meet certain contracts or to receive a certain price. But I suggest that perhaps, unfortunately, from what we have been hearing of late, that day seems to be past. I hope that if it is an ill wind, it will at least blow good to the port of Churchill and that from now on that position may be improved. At various times I have raised the matter of storage. It is a hard question about which to get information, but I am interested in it. We as a nation, or the wheat board if you like, must store wheat some place, and it does store wheat some place at almost all times of the year. It seems to me that there should be some way of storing it at Churchill. Of course the Churchill elevator holds only 2,500,000 bushels. I am

often amused by papers I see in the east. "Oh dear me", they say, " we could not store two and a half million bushels. Just think of keeping two and a half million bushels of wheat idle up there all that time." Think of what a small proportion the two and a half million bushels is to the immense wheat crop of this country. After all, it is only a drop in the bucket.
Then we have a great storage elevator built by the government and standing there in Saskatoon with a capacity of five and a half million bushels, none of which is ever used. I should not say "none". There are a few bushels of wheat in it; it may be a thousand or two but what is that compared to the five and a half million capacity? The only thing that I know that elevator has been good for in the last few years is that it has been used to store a few thousand bushels of rapeseed. It was held in that position so that it could be pressed for oil at the local wheat pool oil plant. I have suggested to the minister that flax might well have been stored there instead of being stored in the terminal elevators down here in the east, because there was a time when that small oil mill had to shut down because there was no flax there to be processed. At the same time there was lots of flax lying idle in the east upon which storage was being paid in these eastern elevators.
The storage of wheat is one of the difficulties of the situation, and I have suggested at least some remedy. Another tremendous difficulty-and I am not a grain man; I fail to understand this-is this diversion charge. The diversion charge is one of the most ridiculous things of which I have ever heard. The minister can correct me but I think it is 2| cents a bushel that we are charged in dealing with that wheat. What is a diversion charge? I am none too clear on it myself, but as far as I have discovered it appears to be a fee which is paid to certain grain companies for not handling wheat. In other words, if they had not the privilege of handling and storing that particular wheat then there is an assessment of 2| cents a bushel put against the wheat which is not so handled. That seems to me to be a ridiculous situation.
There are a great many people in my part of the country-and I think it includes all of the farmers in northern Saskatchewan- who are tremendously interested in this road and in the port. They look on it as their own road. Let me say here that you see various wild statements in the press that this white elephant thing was built at national expense. It was no such thing. It was built at the expense of the western provinces. They look
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upon it as their own road. They are interested in it and they would like a little co-operation in making it a success. Great Britain has benefited from this route perhaps more than anybody else of recent years. As a nation Great Britain has benefited to the extent that she has been able to get wheat shipped out from Hudson bay. I think that helps our position in the British competitive market; and, if reports about our trade are true, assistance in that particular competitive market could be to our advantage some of these days.
This deficit, which is costing the taxpayers of this country money, is a thing in which business people in all parts of the country should be interested, one in which the taxpayers should be interested. The estimate calls for $50 million to square the deficit. This deficit, which must be met by the taxpayers, has been caused simply by one thing, namely, a lack of volume. I have a statement from the management of the port. I have statements from people in the grain trade. They estimate that a volume of fifteen million bushels would take care of the deficit. It would not make any profit, but it would mean that the taxpayers of the country would not have anything to pay in respect of this route.
I have pleaded that just once we ought to be able to get that much grain over this road and through this port in order to decide what is the value of this route. I have urged that business be sought for this road. I am afraid that I have always had the suspicion, held by many people in our part of the country, that business is not so sought. I have appealed to the minister that the railway might drum up some business. The Minister of Transport has told me that it is neither his business nor the railway's; that it is a matter for business institutions, and so forth. Still the minister has assured us that he was benevolent to the Churchill route, and I believe perhaps he still is. Yet we have not had the results that some of us would have desired, and which I think we might have expected. I will say this, that if there had been any interest in this country, if the Canadian National Railways had done the same amount of work in drumming up business as, for instance, the Dalgleish Shipping Company, which has shipped out most of the wheat from that port and shipped in most of the goods, if there had been some agencies in this country that had been working for the promotion of that port and road to the same extent that Mr. Dalgleish's company has, this thing would have been on a solid footing long before now.
I am aware of the influence that the wheat board has in this particular matter; I am

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aware of the influence that the Minister of Trade and Commerce could have in this particular matter; and I am aware of the influence that the Minister of Transport could have. He will probably say that I am attributing to him powers which he has not. However, that is my own opinion on the matter.
As I said when I began, I do not want to go into the whole matter in detail, but our people out there want to see that road a success. They are interested in it. They believe that it could be made a success if there were the proper co-operation between all the people who should be concerned in it.


Percy Ellis Wright: I should like to say a few words on this particular matter. This is rather amusing for me, after having been here for eleven sessions and hearing every year this discussion on the Hudson Bay railway and the promises of the minister and the government that they are going to see what can be done about it. It may be new to some of the other members from northern Saskatchewan who are here for the first time, but it certainly is not a new story in this house. In 1946 there was a resolution before the house on which the house voted by an overwhelming majority, asking the government to make greater use of this port.
After hearing this debate, after visiting the port, after living in that part of the province, it seems to me that this government is responsible. Through the harbours board they control the port of Churchill. Through the Hudson Bay railway and the Canadian National Railways they control the railways going to that port, and through the wheat board they control the main product which can be shipped through that port. Therefore they should have some influence on the insurance rates into that port. Therefore the responsibility lies here with this government as to whether that port is to be developed or not. If they see fit it can be developed. If they exhibit the same apathy that they have in the past then the port will remain in the same state as it has been during the last number of years.
With the facilities there the port could handle at least twenty or twenty-five million bushels of grain even during the present season, if it were placed in a position where it could be moved into the port at the proper time. The Hudson Bay railway will only be a paying proposition when this government, through their various government agencies, make up their minds that they are going to develop the port. Through the Canadian National Railways there is the possibility of building feeder lines to Hudson Bay. A new mining area has opened up in the Loon lake

district, north of Flin Flon, where there is a large body of ore which, when developed, could be moved out through Hudson bay. There are several branch lines in northern Saskatchewan. I refer particularly to the one which ends at Arborfield and another which ends at Carrot river which can be connected up with the Hudson Bay railway at Le Pas in Manitoba, and make that railway a paying proposition. In my opinion it is entirely up to this government to decide whether that is done or not, or whether it is going to continue to pay deficits on that road as has been the custom in the past few years.


Mr. Blackmore:: May I add a voice from Alberta in support of the Hudson Bay railway. I believe the success of that railway is pretty well covered by the old saying that where there's a will there's a way. I hope that before too long the government will acquire a very definite will, and will find a way to make this a success. In western Canada there is a desire that this railway should succeed, and I believe it can be made a success. I ask that it be made so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
486.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals, construction and improvement of terminal facilities, capital (revote $1,372,000), $1,400,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: This item deals with the chief means of transportation between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. There appears to be a decrease in the amount of the vote. I do not believe the terminals are completed yet, but I am glad to see the work has been progressing satisfactorily. I have not troubled the minister very much about "reefer" cars this session, but I may say that in view of the reports I have been receiving I hope he will continue to keep the supply of reefer cars right through the shipping season.
When the terminals are completed I suggest the next thing the minister will have to consider is the matter of an auxiliary wharf or an auxiliary boat to help the present boat, the Abegweit, take care of the freight and the transportation of cars. In view of the interest the minister has taken in our transportation problem, I am sure that, if this is properly presented to him, before another year we will have an auxiliary boat to take care of the extra traffic on the Borden ferry service.
If he has time I should like him to speak briefly tonight with reference to the completion of the terminals and the work the ferry has been doing. While I have not the report for November, I find that in October the ferry carried 2,780 carloads of freight to and from Prince Edward Island. It is of great advantage to the Canadian National Railways to have the long haul on most of the freight to and from Prince Edward Island. Would the

minister state what the government intends :o do in the future in connection with the :erminals at Borden and Tormentine?


Lionel Chevrier: I am happy to tell the hon. member that, in so far as this vote is concerned, the contract has been completed to :he extent of almost 95 per cent, and it is expected it will be fully completed some ;ime in the spring. There are about five small items remaining to be done. I can issure the hon. member that the department md the Canadian National Railways are fully conversant with this transportation problem, md that is one of the reasons which led to he construction of the Abegweit. I can tell ;he hon. member that the transportation prob-ems of Prince Edward Island will be care-:ully looked into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
487.	Strait of Canso, transportation improvements md facilities, capital (revote), $500,000.
Lionel Chevrier: I promised the hon. member or Cape Breton South to make a statement >n this item, and I shall proceed to give him he brief statement I have before me. As o the present position of the contract at the trait of Canso, let me point out that on darch 12, 1949, the government gave a con-ract to Foundation Maritime Limited for tight diamond drill borings across the strait if Canso, and on and around the proposed iridge site. This contract was completed in September of this year. The engineer in harge of the Canso bridge, Dr. P. L. Pratley, las reported that in place of the anticipated .lmost bare rock he found an overburden vhich was considerably heavy and almost 8 feet in the centre of the channel, and since he completion of the contract by Foundation /iaritime Limited the engineer in charge is ireparing plans and specifications for the ailing of tenders for the construction of iiers and the bridge itself.
It must be realized that for a project of this ature there are very many technical prob-ems which must be solved before calling or tenders. For example, the province of Tova Scotia, which is keenly interested, must e consulted in so far as the ownership of the iverbed is concerned. And then there must e co-ordination of the work, new topo-raphic maps must be completed, triangula-ion has to be completed, piers and abut-lents must be looked into. But the co-rdination of the work is in the hands of re engineer in charge with the Canadian rational Railways and the Department of iighways of the province of Nova Scotia for re approaches to the bridge.
The last report I have from Dr. Pratley idicates that the preparatory work for all lis which I have mentioned is progressing
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satisfactorily, and that he still hopes to be in a position to call for tenders some time in March of next year.


Clarence Gillis: This item makes an appropriation of $500,000 to improve transportation facilities at the strait of Canso. The minister's statement indicates that the department has the intention of going ahead with the project. However, this bridge was going to cost $13 million, and there is no estimate so far as I can see either here or in those of the Department of Public Works to carry on that work. Would the minister clear up that point?


Lionel Chevrier: The vote now in the estimates is to cover these surveys. The amount for the construction of the bridge will be in the main estimates of next year.


Clarence Gillis: That is rather disappointing.


Lionel Chevrier: Let me point out that even if there were $5 million in the estimates it could not possibly be spent between now and the end of this fiscal year.


Clarence Gillis: I am not going to get into any argument with the minister about it, because I imagine he is doing the best he can. However, the only assurance we have thus far is that they have completed the borings and anticipate no difficulty. I think we had that assurance at least a year ago. I thought that angle of the work was completed. It was my understanding that the $100,000 contract let to Foundation Maritime Limited was for the purpose of completing the test piers, that the test piers were in, and that that particular line of work was finished. The preliminary work outlined by the minister will cost more than the amount in this vote. It is disappointing to the maritime provinces, where there is and has been since the end of the war a serious unemployment problem. The last figures we have show that there are approximately 23,000 unemployed registered and many of them are in that area. There has been keen interest in Nova Scotia in this bridge during the last couple of years and everyone was of the opinion that the preliminary work had been done. They were hoping that early this spring this project would be started and would help to relieve the present unemployment.
It is not encouraging to learn that this work is merely in the exploration stage and that next year another appropriation will have to be passed. We are not going forward with this thing in the way I anticipated after hearing the statements that were made in this house and during the last election campaign. I am not satisfied. I think that

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'his is merely a palliative to take the edge it a bad let-down. The province of Nova Scotia will be financially interested in this project and it appears to me now that a lot of the ballyhoo we heard-I hope I am wrong about this-


Lionel Chevrier: You certainly are.


Clarence Gillis: -in the last six or eight years in regard to this bridge is just that. I am disappointed that something more definite cannot be given to us and that there are not more realistic plans for the going forward with this project so that it may be commenced next spring.


Lionel Chevrier: I am sorry my hon. friend is not satisfied, but let me tell him that the report on the Canso bridge was tabled in the house in March. That contained a specific recommendation that a special contract for borings should be let. If my hon. friend looks at page 39 of that report, of which he has a copy, he will find that recommendation set out and that is what is to be done under this item.
My hon. friend says that this is a palliative, that we have no intention of going on. Let me tell him that when the government makes a statement, as a rule it carries out its undertaking. There was a statement made in this house following the establishment of the board of engineers which was concurred in by the government of Nova Scotia to the effect that Dr. Pratley had been selected as the engineer and it was intended to proceed as quickly as we could.
It was discovered that until test borings had been made it would be impossible to get a bid from any contractor. Let it not be forgotten that this report takes issue with the recommendations of some of the previous engineers with reference to the depth of water and the difficulties surrounding the bridging of the strait of Canso. I can assure my hon. friend that there is not the slightest intention of backing away from this project and I do not think anyone knows it better than himself.


Clarence Gillis: Far be it from me to offend the minister because I believe that he believes everything he says. As far as reports are concerned, may I say that I have read a good one that was made in 1906. That report was tabled by the government, paid for by the government and apparently accepted by the government. I have followed this matter quite closely. As far as test borings are concerned, may I say to the minister that there were borings long before that report was brought in. A total of $100,000 has been spent to find out how deep the water is, and now we are boring some more. I thought the

test bores had all been made but apparently they are still being made. I am going to keep on boring here until this bridge is completed.


Percy Chapman Black: All the people are of one mind about this matter, they want this bridge built. I can understand the hon. member for Cape Breton South feeling sceptical along with a good many people in Nova Scotia. Personally I am going to accept the statement made by the minister that the government are going ahead with the construction of this long waited for and greatly needed bridge.
I was a little uneasy at what the minister said with regard to the results of the borings and I gather that the engineer in charge confirms his previous finding that the construction of this bridge is practical and he is prepared to go ahead with the construction. Am I to understand that contracts will be called for this season and construction proceeded with?


Lionel Chevrier: That is right.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maritime Freight Rates Act-
488.	To hereby authorize and provide for the payment from time to time during the fiscal year 194950 to the Canadian National Railway Company oi the difference (estimated by the Canadian National Railway Company and certified by the auditors oi the said company to the Minister of Transport a: and when required by the said minister) occurrini on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and th
Heber Harold Hatfield: We are thankful for the Maritime Freight Rates Act, but like the hon. member for Cumberland I should like to point out that the people of the maritimes are worrying over their markets in the United States. People who live along the Canadian National Railways in the maritime provinces must pay a higher freight rate for shipments to the United States than people living on the Canadian Pacific line in New Brunswick. For example, in making shipments of potatoes from Centreville to Paterson, New Jersey, the rate is 21 cents per 100 pounds nore than the rate from a point on the Canadian Pacific four miles away. It costs 21 cents per 100 pounds or $100 a carload more on the C.N.R. than on the C.P.R. at a point on the C.N.R. four miles from the station Qn the C.P.R. I want to point out that the rate in the province of New Brunswick is 10 cents a hundred lower than the rate from Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island. In practically all cases, unless the shipment is routed to the western United States, the rate via the 3.N.R. from Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and the north shore of New Brunswick is 10 to 20 cents higher than from points on the C.P.R. in New Brunswick. I should like the minister to tell me what route a car billed from Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, to Boston would take on the Canadian National Railways. Where would it cross :he border?


Lionel Chevrier: It would go via Saint John.
[ do not know where it would cross the oorder.


Heber Harold Hatfield: 
Lionel Chevrier: As my hon. friend knows, individual rates are matters for the board. In view of his representations, I shall be glad to bring them to the attention of the board of transport commissioners.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I should like to discuss the matter of freight rates and their application to Newfoundland. Before I do so, may I say that I do not want to delay the committee, and if it is not in order I shall not go further. The province has presented a brief to the royal commission on transportation, and if I cannot discuss the matter I shall not go any further. I should like to have an understanding before I proceed.


Lionel Chevrier: May I bring to the hon. member's attention the fact that once a matter is before the board it is considered sub judice and should not be discussed in the house on the estimates. Of course he can discuss the subsidy, but he cannot discuss the matters which he has already brought to my attention on several occasions. I have spoken about them in the house once or twice, and I would be delighted to speak tonight, but I hope he will not insist.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I shall not take up the time because the minister is fully conversant with the matter, and I am sure he will look after the poor province of Newfoundland in that, regard.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
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918. Canadian Government Railways-enlargement of dock and terminal facilities at North Sydney, N.S. (estimated cost $2,000,000)-capital, $250,000.
Percy Chapman Black: These items are going through fairly rapidly, and I think most hon. members want to facilitate their passing. I should like to know what expenditures are being made at North Sydney, and whether this appropriation will complete the required facilities. We understand and are in agreement with the improvement of these facilities in order to serve the traffic going to Newfoundland. There should be some statement from the minister.


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Percy Chapman Black: I have asked the minister for a statement as to this question, and I do not know why hon. members should cry "carried".


Lionel Chevrier: I am sorry. While I heard the first part of the hon. member's remarks, I did not hear the last part, which was the question.


Percy Chapman Black: I asked whether this appropriation was sufficient to complete the necessary facilities in order to serve the increased traffic to and from Newfoundland.


Lionel Chevrier: No, not nearly enough. The estimated expenditure for the docks and railway facilities will be in the neighbourhood of $2 million, and this vote provides for $250,000.


Percy Chapman Black: And the total expenditure is $2 million?


Lionel Chevrier: That is right.


Percy Chapman Black: When does the minister expect the work to be completed if the total expenditure is to be $2 million?


Lionel Chevrier: The contract has not yet been let. Plans and specifications are about ready, but I hardly think it will be completed before next winter.


Percy Chapman Black: What is the purpose of the $250,000 that is now being voted? What use is it to be put to?


Lionel Chevrier: It is in order to provide for the expenditure in connection with preliminary plans and specifications.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is there going to be any improvement in the docking facilities at Port aux Basques?


Lionel Chevrier: There is nothing provided in this estimate.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is it intended?


Lionel Chevrier: Not at this juncture.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I think I can only raise this as a point of order, Mr. Chairman. As I understand it you have called item 918, and I should like to know whether item 911 has yet been called, because I understood the supplementary estimates were to be left until we had carried the main estimates.


Louis-René Beaudoin: I do not know of any such arrangement. Perhaps it happened while I was not in the chair. I have arranged the estimates in such order that once we take up the main estimate on a certain subject the supplementaries and further sup-plementaries dealing with the same item can be discussed at the same time. That procedure, which was followed previously, appeared to be satisfactory, and I intended to continue to follow it. Item 918 relates to the same subject matter; that is, Canadian government railways. The main estimate concerning the Canadian government railways had to do with repairs to Ogden Point piers in British Columbia, while item 918 dealt with the enlargement of terminal facilities at North Sydney. That was why I read the subject matter of this further supplementary item under the same heading. Item 911 has not been called, I may say for the information of the hon. member for Kamloops.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air Service-*
549. Air transport board-salaries and office expenses, $188,745.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Before we come to this item I should like to make a comment or to ask a question on the statutory item following vote No. 494. Is it permissible to do that now, or should that be done on one of the administrative items? The question is, this being a statutory item as indicated, under what authority was the annuity increased by $1,200 a year? I do not recall any legislation coming before the house to authorize that increase.


Lionel Chevrier: It has not been increased. The amount was announced prior to last session, upon the retirement of Colonel Cross and the appointment of Mr. Justice Archibald.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Was this provision incorporated in that statute?


Lionel Chevrier: Last year it covered the unexpired term and amounted to $3,600, while this year it is for the full term.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I am in favour of that item; he is a relative of mine.


Mr. Bater:: I have received advice from the North Battleford board of trade that they

have made representations to the department in connection with the composition of the directorates of Trans-Canada Air Lines and Canadian National Railways. They have asked, and have requested me to support their suggestion, that better representation be given western Canada on both those directorates. I also noticed that at the annual convention of the Manitoba associated chambers of commerce a resolution was adopted requesting better representation for western Canada on both those directorates; and I should like to draw that to the attention of the minister.


Edmund Davie Fulton: This is the board before which, as I understand it, the hearing on the show-cause order in connection with Colonial Air Lines will be heard. I am just wondering what may be the repercussions of that order, ^.s I understand it, Trans-Canada Air Lines das a franchise for a service from Montreal to New York, via international agreement; that has been authorized recently. Colonial das a franchise for the same service under an earlier international agreement. If I am correct in my reading of the press reports- and I admit that is all I am going on-the statement has been made that since Colonial questions the constitutionality of the award af that franchise to Trans-Canada, we are making the position that we question the egality of their earlier franchise. Where is this going to end? I confess that I am somewhat confused, and incidentally very much disturbed, by the international bickering which appears to be going on. I would certainly appreciate, as I am sure the country would appreciate, a statement by the minister which might clear up the matter for us.


Lionel Chevrier: I made a complete statement n the house on the orders of the day earlier and went into the matter as fully as I could; cut perhaps I can recapitulate briefly. The air agreement which was signed between the ;wo countries in June, 1949, provided among nany other things that T.C.A. would operate ;he route between Montreal and New York. They made their application to the civil leronautics board in the usual course, and Colonial Air Lines by a number of legal nethods, attempted to block the application. Che position is such that it would take some ime to go into the legal entanglements involved in that application.
Be that as it may, T.C.A. have not yet )btained their right from C.A.B. to operate o New York. On the other hand C.A.B. ;ave us the right to have Canadian Pacific \ir Lines operate between Vancouver, Hono-ulu and Australia, and another application s now before the civil aeronautics board by
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T.C.A. to operate into the Caribbean via Florida with traffic rights at St. Petersburg and Tampa, which as yet has not been disposed of. Because of the delays in the granting of the licence to T.C.A. and because of what appeared to the air transport board to be lack of good faith on the part of Colonial the board under the Aeronautics Act issued this show-cause order, which simply means that Colonial Air Lines will be asked to come before the board and show cause why its licence to operate between New York and Montreal should not be suspended. I do not think I can say more than that at this time.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not quite follow the reasoning behind this case. It may be extremely irritating to have Colonial Air Lines opposing the constitutionality of the award of the franchise to T.C.A.; but surely the fact that they have a franchise already to operate from New York to Montreal cannot be disputed. I am inclined to question the wisdom-and I should like to hear the minister's reaction to this

of entering into disputes at the international level concerning a matter which it seems to me should be dealt with at the commercial level. In other words if there is a dispute between two companies, Colonial and T.C.A., why must governments get mixed up in it?


Lionel Chevrier: Governments are not involved in it.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Then why are we getting notes from the United States government?


Lionel Chevrier: Governments had not been mixed up in it except to this point, when the note referred to yesterday by the Secretary of State for External Affairs was received. The application is simply a routine one made by the air line to C.A B. in the United States and to the air transport board in Canada; there is nothing more than that in it.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Following the minister's
statement, as I understood his remarks the other day no matter what may be the outcome of Colonial's application, nothing will interfere with the use of Gander by United States or international air lines?


Lionel Chevrier: I am unable to substitute my judgment for that of the board. The air transport board is the body that grants the licences. Already they have granted licences to two United States companies at Gander, PanAmerican and Trans-World Air Lines. One application is still pending; and the rights granted those two United States companies at Gander are permanent. The other right will be disposed of.

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Gordon Francis Higgins: Has the minister reason to believe that other trans-Canada carriers will not be granted the same rights?


Lionel Chevrier: I have none.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Who inspired-and I shall use that word for want of a better-the show-cause order issued to Colonial Air Lines?


Lionel Chevrier: The air transport board.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is that not a branch of government, an emanation of the minister's department?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, it is, in the same way as the board of transport commissioners is a branch of the department, or the national harbours board.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It seems to me, with respect, that government is getting mixed up with this. I will put it this way. Why could not T.C.A. have issued the show-cause order?


Lionel Chevrier: T.C.A. is the chosen instrument of the government to operate under the international air agreement, just as Colonial Air Lines is the chosen instrument of the United States government to operate from New York to Ottawa. It could not interfere. There must be a regulating body that decides whether an air line shall operate from one point to another or shall cease to operate. That regulating and controlling body is the air transport board.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is the position not this? Whether we resent it or not, Colonial Air Lines made an application and Colonial is- and I think I am correct in this statement- a commercial air line, is it not?


Lionel Chevrier: Colonial did not make application. Colonial already had its licence.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It opposed the constitutionality of the award of a franchise to T.C.A. from Montreal to New York.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Edmund Davie Fulton: But it did that as a commercial entity. Unless the T.C.A. take action to request that Colonial's licence be cancelled, it seems to me that the air transport board, which it is stated is an emanation of the government, has turned around to a commercial corporation and, as it were, by way of reprisal, said: You show cause why we should not cancel your licence. That is why I say I regret that government-and it appears that we have taken this step-should get mixed up in what is a commercial matter as between air lines.


Lionel Chevrier: The reverse position could equally have been the case. Suppose that Colonial Air Lines had made the application

and had previously been designated by the American government as being the line to operate between Toronto and New York. T.C.A. could then have come before the air transport board and opposed the application. It probably would not have done so, but it could have done so in the same manner as Colonial is opposing and has opposed the application by T.C.A. before the C.A.B.


Edmund Davie Fulton: That is perfectly true. I do not think that alters the situation as I have placed it before the committee, namely that the action to show cause why Colonial Air Lines licence should not be cancelled has been taken in the first instance by an emanation of our government. Is that not a statement of the fact?


Lionel Chevrier: No, that is not the fact. The fact is simply this. The two countries signed a bilateral air agreement and one of the designated instruments of one country, namely Colonial, challenges the right of T.C.A. to operate on a certain route; and it challenges that right, as the hon. member has said, on the ground of constitutionality; and while challenging the constitutionality of the bilateral air agreement, it maintains that it has the right on the other hand to operate from New York into Canada.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Under an earlier agreement.


An hon. Member:: Under the same agreement.


Lionel Chevrier: As my hon. friend says, under the same agreement, confirmed in the earlier agreement. What I mean is that it had these rights under the earlier agreement and now the same rights were confirmed in the agreement of June, 1949, plus other rights. The whole point is that it seeks to challenge the constitutionality of the agreement in the United States and still in Canada it wants the right to say, on the other hand, that the agreement is constitutional and that it should have the right to operate in here. All the air transport board say is: We now ask you to show cause why your rights should nol be suspended.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Is there no way in which thal action taken by the air transport board could have been taken by T.C.A.?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In order to keep the thing ofl the international level and keep it as between air lines?


Lionel Chevrier: No, for the reason that T.C.A is not a regulating or governing power. There is only one body that has them under the Aeronautics Act, and it is the air transporl board. It is the only board that can cancel oi

grant a licence or ask an applicant or a licensee to show cause why its licence should not be suspended.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Would it not have been possible tor T.C.A. to apply to the air transport board? Would it not have been possible for that action to have originated with T.C.A.?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It seems to me to be desirable that it could.


Lionel Chevrier: Only in regard to its rights across Canada or a trans-border right wherein it would have to apply to both boards; that is, if it had running rights in both countries, therefore it must get a licence from both countries.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In conclusion, as far as I am concerned, I put this thought before the minister as a result of the discussion we have had. In my view it would be desirable to create a situation in which it would be possible for the initial action to be taken by our T.C.A. or our commercial air lines under such a set of circumstances, if only for the object of avoiding the appearance-and it seems to me it has that appearance, based on facts-of government having to take the initial action which means inevitably what we have now, an exchange of international notes, a thing which has not happened under circumstances of this sort, at any rate, for years as between ourselves and the United States. I think it is most regrettable. I feel that, if it is at all possible, some mechanism should be worked out whereby our commercial air lines, T.C.A. or other air lines as the case may be, could take initial action to avoid such a set of circumstances in the future.


Howard Charles Green: If the Colonial Air Lines withdrew their application in the United States, would this show-cause summons be dropped?


Lionel Chevrier: I could not answer that question. That would be up to the board. I could anticipate what the result would be, but I would not presume to say what the board's decision would be.


Howard Charles Green: I think there is one question about the jurisdiction of the air transport board which should be clarified. It has always been my understanding that the board exercises its discretion in granting a licence, permit, or whatever the certificate is called, and apparently that has been done in this case. Colonial Air Lines have been given a licence. I can quite understand why the board should at a later date issue a show-cause summons to show why that licence should not be cancelled if there were some doubt about the ability to fly, or if the line were not operating
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safely, or if there were something being done that was wrong with the actual conduct of the operation; but I should like the minister to state whether the air transport board can go further than that and cancel the licence for some reason which has nothing whatever to do with the efficiency of the operation. If the board can do that with one line, then it could do the same with a Canadian line; having issued a licence to a Canadian line, and that licence still not having expired, and the route being flown in an efficient way, satisfactory to the public, the board could issue a show-cause summons and have that licence cancelled for some extraneous reason. Has the board that power? That is the point which worries me. Because it does not like something that a flying company is doing, quite apart from the route that is being flown, has the board the drastic power to cancel the company's licence?


Lionel Chevrier: In the first place, the licence was granted under the old agreement. In the second place, having the power to grant a licence, they must of necessity have the power to suspend or cancel that licence. And as I said the reason why the show-cause order is being given is perfectly valid, namely, that a licensee claims on the one hand that the air agreement under which it is the chosen instrument is invalid, on one side of the line, and on the other side claims the right to continue to operate because the air agreement is valid. Surely that in itself is a good reason why the board should exercise the power which it has under the act.


Howard Charles Green: Then the board could not take action of this kind in the case of a licence issued for a domestic flight, that is, a flight within Canada.


Lionel Chevrier: I think the board has the power to grant licences for domestic flights in Canada, and also to cancel them.


Howard Charles Green: If it issues a licence in Canada for flying in Canada and the Canadian company is giving satisfactory service, could the board issue a show-cause summons and cancel that licence for some reason quite apart from the fact that the route is not being flown in a safe way?


Lionel Chevrier: I would not like to answer that question generally but I would say that if an air line were operating in accordance with the regulations, civil aviation, radio and weather, the board would not attempt to interfere with it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supp ly-Transport
Airways and airports-	.
498.	Construction and improvements, including radio facilities; and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $100,000 (revote $2,303,650)-Capital, $13,097,300.
Howard Charles Green: Can the minister tell us where this money is to be spent?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, I have quite a lengthy list. I shall pick out some from various districts. As the committee knows, there are several air districts across Canada. I shall take the larger amounts. In the district of Moncton almost a million dollars is to be spent to reinforce and extend runway, $725,000 at Sydney, Nova Scotia; $750,000 is to be spent for the construction of a hard-surfaced runway at Fredericton; $750,000 is to be spent at Saint John for the construction of northeast-southwest runway including lighting. In the district of Montreal, Dorval, $300,000 is to be spent for a terminal building. In the district of Toronto there are two large items, one of $970,000 to complete the construction of one runway and another of $740,000 to complete the construction of another runway. In the Winnipeg district there are substantial expenditures for the construction of parking areas and taxi strips at the Stevenson airport. In the Edmonton district $870,000 is being provided for the construction of east-west runway at Calgary. Then there is a substantial number of smaller items, one for the isolated places in the Northwest Territories. In the Vancouver district there is quite a large number of items that are provided for. Again this is broken down in districts for radio aviation. The total amount is as set out in the vote.


Howard Charles Green: That is not all being spent on government-owned fields?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Gordon Francis Higgins: In the Newfoundland supplementary estimates there is an item of $449,000 under the same heading.


Lionel Chevrier: Over and above this.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Where is it to be spent?


Lionel Chevrier: At Gander.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
499.	Civil aviation services, $3,842,568.
Gordon Francis Higgins: Under this item there is an amount of $3,770,000 for Newfoundland. Where is it to be spent?


Lionel Chevrier: My hon. friend is referring to the supplementary estimates.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: I speak from memory now. The expenditure for the Gander airport will

run upwards of $3 million. I think it is somewhere in the neighbourhood of from $3,500,000 to $4 million.


Gordon Francis Higgins: The amount I refer to is $3,770,000.


Lionel Chevrier: I would say most of that is for Gander.


Gordon Francis Higgins: Is that for runways?


Lionel Chevrier: Buildings, runways, and I think there is an apron. After we took over Gander we discovered that there was a great deal of work to be done. Most of it was in connection with repairs, various maintenance and the like.


Gordon Francis Higgins: That will be in the next season?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Percy Chapman Black: What is the total expenditure for this service in the current year?


Lionel Chevrier: Under item 499?


Percy Chapman Black: No, for all the air
services.


Lionel Chevrier: It is $36 million.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
500.	Radio aviation services, $4,097,050.
Gordon Francis Higgins: There is a little item of $415,000 for Newfoundland. Is that to be spent at Gander?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
502.	Grants to organizations for the development of civil aviation, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $310,000.
Edmund Davie Fulton: I do not want the detail of this item. Perhaps it will be sufficient if the minister could tell me where I can find it. What are the qualifications or standards laid down before a flying club or a flying school can obtain one of these grants? In the detail on page 291 it says that $250,000 is available to flying schools and flying clubs and student pilots. Is that available under the statement of policy that has been previously announced?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, it is available under an order in council which I tabled. If my hon. friend has not got it I shall be glad to send it to him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
503.	Contributions, subject to the approval of the governor in council, to assist municipalities to improve existing airports, the sites of which have been provided by such municipalities (revote, $164,000), $264,000.
Mr. Herridge:: Under this item contributions re given to assist municipalities in improving xisting airports. In my constituency there 5 a most important airport. I think the linister is aware of the circumstances. It is laced on the most favourable site for the anding of planes. It is used at this time by he Canadian Pacific Air Lines for landing iassenger planes. I understand that the linister's department has rejected assistance o the development of this airport because it oes not come up to certain specifications. It 3 jointly owned by four municipalities.


Lionel Chevrier: What is the name of it?


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: Castlegar. In view of the fact hat this is a terminal airport for the district nd will continue to be, and offers the best pportunities for development as an airport, /ill the minister's department consider ssisting those municipalities that own the irport?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Chairman, there is a arefully defined program in the department n connection with assistance to municipal irports. The technical officers of the depart-nent feel that this airport is good enough or the services now available. The officers lo not think that it is the kind of airport that hould be operated on a 24-hour basis because he cost of it would be prohibitive. Having ;one into it carefully they feel that is as far s they can go. If it pleases my hon. friend shall be glad to ask my officers to look at it gain.


Herbert Wilfred Herridge: I wish you would.


Percy Chapman Black: On what basis loes the department assist municipalities in he construction or maintenance of airports?


Lionel Chevrier: It assists them in three ways: Trst by grants to the municipalities; second, >y a subsidy to an airport; and third, it comes o the assistance of airports in isolated areas.
Dealing with the first group, as a rule the nunicipality must provide the site. What the lepartment does is to make a grant of $25,000
0	the municipality. The municipality asks or the contract, places the contract, and we vill pay towards that cost to the municipality
1	sum not to exceed $25,000.


Howard Charles Green: I notice that in the particulars in page 291 there are eleven payments; ten if them are for airports in the province of Juebec, each in the amount of $25,000; and me in Ontario for $4,000, and none in any if the other provinces. Why is that?


Lionel Chevrier: Because the list I mentioned i moment ago gives assistance to trans-con-inental airports-for T.C.A. and C.P.A. in he northwest. I think now of Winnipeg, lalgary, Edmonton and Saskatoon. Those 45781-188
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were airports taken over during the war. The government spent large sums of money, and then turned them over to the municipalities. Some of the municipalities felt they should not accept them; and in connection with some of them, as indicated by the vote which appears later on, we have to carry them on and administer them ourselves.
In Quebec, apart from Dorval, there are not many of these transcontinental airports. But in the more isolated parts of Quebec, such as the north shore and the south shore, for which provision is made in these estimates, there is great need for small airports, and the government decided to come to the assistance of these municipalities in that way.
I think however if one were to make a tabulation one would see that, from the point of view of population, Quebec perhaps -and not "perhaps", but assuredly-receives far less by way of assistance for airports than does the rest of Canada.


Howard Charles Green: I am not complaining about what Quebec is getting. It does seem strange however that only Quebec and Ontario are getting any benefit from this vote. The minister just referred to an airport at Castlegar. That is a main airport on the route from Vancouver to Calgary. Planes are dropping in there every day on their regular routes. While the minister says it cannot be operated at night, I think that is not the actual position. Furthermore it is an emergency landing for Trans-Canada Air Lines. I do not understand why it cannot qualify for some help when these municipal airports do.


Lionel Chevrier: It does qualify, but not for the kind of help it wants. It wants operation day and night. These little airports to which my hon. friend refers cannot operate at night. There are no instrument services and no control works permitting them to land aircraft at night. All there is is an airstrip. When one considers the tremendous size of the estimates for airport construction, and the cost of building an airstrip, it must be realized that $25,000 does not go very far. Most of these are dirt strips.


Mr. Applewhaite:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to speak briefly in connection with this item, and direct my attention more to what the item does not cover than to what it covers. This item deals with contributions subject to the approval of the governor in council, to assist municipalities to improve existing airports, the sites of which have been provided by such municipalities. The

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situation I should like to bring to the attention of the minister and the committee is that of those communities which are not municipalities. In northern British Columbia, and presumably in other parts of Canada, there are a large number of small communities which are not municipalities, but which, of their own volition and with their own work, have provided the existing airports.
Perhaps it would not be proper to call these airports, but they could be described as airstrips on which aircraft can and do land.	These are not airports asking for
assistance by way of range finders and other types of modern equipment. What I have in mind are those communities where the citizens have literally got out with their picks and shovels, perhaps with horses or trucks, and built the airports now in use.
Perhaps in view of the wording of the item it would be difficult to assist them. I would draw the attention of the minister to what has been done in a few of those cases in my district. The most important of these is the Atlin airport, where the north-south runway of the proposed two-way airport has been cleared from end to end by the people there. It was done in 1940, and has been partially maintained by bulldozers since that time.
During the months of June and July of this year there was an average of three planes per day at that point. This airstrip was built entirely through local effort, local money and local labour.
At Telegraph Creek, which perhaps is not so large, we find a similar situation where the airstrip was built by local, voluntary labour. At Dease Lake we find a somewhat similar airstrip. The main expense of the field at this point was borne by Mr. G. L. T. Dalzeil and Robert A. Farrell. Mr. Dalzeil is the present owner of the land on which the field is located, and put up most of the cash. He is the only one who uses the field at the present time, because he is the only person with a small enough plane.
At Tulsequah the situation is slightly different. The airstrip at Tulsequah was built by the Polaris-Taku Mining Company, who now own it. The strip is used by the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company and other planes that may be going through in that direction. Permission is given to everyone who wishes to use the strip, and no charge is made for its use.
In all these cases I should like to point out that there are involved a class of people who are not usually dependent upon governments, and who do not make a practice of running to governments to have everything done for them. They have done everything

it is humanly possible for them to do, anc have done it of their own volition. I suggesl they are now entitled to some assistance from this department.
Someone may suggest: Why not incorporate and become municipalities? These communities are too small. You cannot incorporate a working municipality out of a community of 220 or 250 people. But, withoul exception, they are communities which have no rail connection, no passenger steamship connection and, so far as three out of foui of them are concerned, no highway connection. To all intents and purposes therefore they are entirely dependent upon air transport
I would ask the minister whether he could make this vote applicable to communities oi that sort. I would be perfectly willing to see the limit brought down to $4,000 or $5,000 as a maximum for airports of this size. Would he consider applications from that type oi community?


Lionel Chevrier: This vote does not provide for the contingency to which the hon. member has referred. The policies outlined a moment ago cover grants to municipalities only. But, as I have already indicated to my hon. friend, I am asking my officers to see if there is not some way of amending this vote so as to give assistance in such cases as he has mentioned.


Percy Chapman Black: Would this vote cover maintenance expenditures necessary to keep the airport at Amherst in a serviceable condition? This airport was acquired by the municipality, and a special appropriation was made. During the war the government made substantial expenditures in the improvement of the airport, and after the war it reverted to the municipality. I believe the government still has title to it. Would this appropriation provide funds to maintain that airport? It is used by flying clubs, and some of the people in those clubs have complained to me about its condition.


Lionel Chevrier: There is no provision in this vote for maintenance or operation expenditures. But if there is an airport at Amherst, and the municipality wishes to make application, we will be glad to see if we can assist them.


John Lambert Gibson: Can assistance be granted under this vote to municipalities for the maintenance of sea plane bases?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


John Lambert Gibson: Have you been asked to grant such assistance?


Lionel Chevrier: I cannot say, but we could
not grant assistance for sea plane bases under this vote which is purely for land plane bases.


John Lambert Gibson: There is no ther appropriation available?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


Gordon Francis Higgins: What is the position with egard to the United States bases at Argentia nd Stephenville? Are landing fees charged r is there a subsidy by the Canadian govern-nent?


Lionel Chevrier: That would come under xternal affairs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
505.	To authorize contribution of an amount not xceeding $30,420 to the state of Michigan, U.S.A., .epartment of aeronautics, towards the cost of peration and maintenance of certain airways facili-ies at Grand Marais, Michigan, for use of Canadian ircraft, $30,420.
Heber Harold Hatfield: Will the minister explain this rote?


Lionel Chevrier: This is to assist in the opera-ion and maintenance of the airport at Grand Jarais, Michigan, which is used as a substi-ute airport by T.C.A. planes when taking he lower route from Toronto to Winnipeg.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
506.	Contribution to the international civil aviaion organization as Canada's portion of the finan-:ial assistance to the government of Iceland in espect of the provision, operation and maintenance >f certain air navigation services, $48,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: This seems to be a new item ind perhaps the minister could explain it in nore detail. What is the total amount spent m these services and what other countries :ontribute? Who is benefited?


Lionel Chevrier: This service is of benefit to ill planes that use the north transatlantic route operated by countries who are members )f I.C.A.O. and who subscribe to this service. The total amount is 3,609,800 kroner and Canada's share is 310,661 kroner, which is ipproximately $48,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Northwest communication system -
507.	Additions and betterments, including transport equipment-capital-formerly under demobilization and reconversion estimates, $500,000.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Where are these improvements and betterments to be made?


Lionel Chevrier: This appropriation is to carry out the terms of the Ilsley-Morgenthau agreement of 1944 whereby this government purchased from the United States government the northwest Pacific lines which were turned over to the Canadian National Telegraphs for operation. This is a capital vote which can be broken down partly for the acquisition of equipment and partly for the construction of
45781-188J
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certain buildings such as additional married quarters. This is the northwest communications line extending northwesterly from Edmonton in the direction of Fairbanks and Alaska, and these' improvements will be made at places such as Little Smoky, Destruction Bay, Yellowknife, Canyon Creek, Swift River, Watson Lake, Fort Nelson and Summit Lake.


Edmund Davie Fulton: These are communication lines?


Lionel Chevrier: Telegraph lines and radio.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I notice that this is under civil aviation. Has this to do principally with private telegraph services or private telecommunications services for the Canadian Pacific Air Lines which flies that route?


Lionel Chevrier: It provides telegraph service and telecommunications service for the assistance of all planes operating in that area and for the assistance of the people living there.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Do Canadian Pacific Air Lines pay anything for this service?


Lionel Chevrier: They pay the usual rate for the use of the line.


Stanley Howard Knowles: So far as the capital expenditures are concerned, we are paying the whole shot.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
508.	To provide for the difference between the expenditures for operation and maintenance and revenue accruing from operations during the year ending March 31, 1950-formerly under demobilization and reconversion estimates, $343,016.
Stanley Howard Knowles: What are the anticipated expenditures for the present fiscal year and what are the anticipated revenues?


Lionel Chevrier: The anticipated revenue is $883,000 and the anticipated expenditure is $1,226,966, showing a deficit of $343,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: From whom is the revenue received?


Lionel Chevrier: The revenue is received in
the following manner:
Lease of line to the United States government	 $318,000
Lease of line to Department of Transport 226,000
Lease of lines to airlines operators ... 44,000
Lease of line to R.C.A.F. and army	 98,000
Commercial traffic and other leases .... 195,000


Stanley Howard Knowles: We seem to have quite a mixture of telegraphs, telecommunications, civil aviation, defence and international relations. On what basis is the C.P.A. now operating the service that crosses the international border into Alaska? Is there some order in council that gives them that right or are they flying that service for T.C.A.?

Supply-Transport
I have in mind the general government policy that routes crossing the international border are to be covered by the government agency.


Lionel Chevrier: If my hon. friend is referring to the domestic service of C.P.A., that is operated under a licence granted by the air transport board. If he is referring to the international service from Vancouver to Kiska to the Orient, that is operated under agreement by which the government has selected them as the chosen instrument.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I was referring to the C.P.A. line that goes north from Edmonton and eventually crosses into Alaska to Fairbanks and Nome.


Lionel Chevrier: That route is operated under a subcontract from T.C.A.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
724.	Meteorological services-further amount required, $77,000.
Gordon Francis Higgins: Where is that money being spent?


Lionel Chevrier: This item for $77,000 is for the operation and maintenance of meteorological facilities being taken over from Newfoundland. While a part of it appertains to Gander, some of it is for Botwood, Torbay and Goose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
725. Construction and	improvements-further amount required. $61,000.
Gordon Francis Higgins: What about this item?


Lionel Chevrier: This is for improvements to existing accommodation for weather services at Gander. All of it is for expenditure at Gander.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Radio division-
511.	Administration of the Radio Act and regulations, $1,075,425.
Arthur Leroy Smith: What is the reason for the big advance in expenditure in this item?


Lionel Chevrier: The main part of the increase is due to increases in salaries; $102,000 is attributable to that, and the other great increase, $185,000, is provided for the North American regional broadcasting conference which has been in session in Montreal for the last eight or ten weeks. It is a group of members of the North American hemisphere which met at Havana in 1942 and concluded an agreement for a period of five years. That agreement expired in 1947, and they operated on a modus vivendi until 1949 when they met in Montreal to attempt to agree on a further convention.


Arthur Leroy Smith: All right.


Lionel Chevrier: In 1949 Canada is the host government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
512.	Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radio telegraph stations, operation and maintenance, $1,778,283.
Howard Charles Green: Recently the minister's department established a radar station on the bridge over the first narrows at Vancouver. The idea was that from this station directions would go out to ships in the event of fog, or if any other difficulties were experienced in getting into the harbour. Just two or three weeks ago a ship crashed on the shore of Stanley park a few hundred yards from the bridge despite the fact that the radar operator on the bridge gave out repeated warnings that the ship was running into the shore. There is some doubt whether or not the apparatus on the ship was working, and also whether it had a radio operator. The suggestion is made that the department has no power to compel ships to follow the directions given. In other words, if they choose to ignore the directions or are not able to hear them, the company operating the ship is not subject to any penalty. Incidentally, the minister announced he was having an investigation made into the wreck. The ship was totally wrecked, but fortunately there was no loss of life. Can the minister tell us what the position is as to radar warning stations of that type?


Lionel Chevrier: With regard to the hon. member's reference to the wreck of the Chelohsin, as I indicated earlier a preliminary inquiry was ordered, but the report has not been forthcoming, and I am unable to give the house or my hon. friend the details surrounding the wreck. With reference to the radar station which operates on the bridge, all the radar station can do is to give a warning of danger that lies ahead. It has no power to give instructions which must be followed by the ship.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any penalty if the ship does not follow instructions given by a station of this type?


Lionel Chevrier: No, there is not.


Howard Charles Green: There might very well be a collision. The instructions might be directing one ship to keep clear of another, and if they were not followed the result might be a serious collision. It seems to me there should be some power to enforce obedience to those directions.


Lionel Chevrier: I am informed all these radar stations do is to advise the ship of its loca-;ion and any imminent danger that may lie ihead. There is no power to give orders.


Arthur Leroy Smith: This ship hit a .vhole continent, didn't it?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
726.	Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radio telegraph stations, operation and main-;enance-further amount required, $119,500.
Gordon Francis Higgins: I see the amount of $119,500 ,s made up, among other things, of an item )f $65,000 for a Marconi operated radio sta-;ion. Is that a fee, or what connection does it have with the bill we passed recently?


Lionel Chevrier: That is an agreement Mar-:oni have with the department to operate a lumber of stations on the island.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
513.	Suppression of radio interferences, $357,978.
Herbert Wilfred Herridge: In the southern interior val-eys of British Columbia there are thousands if people with radio sets who are unable to iisten to Canadian stations at night. The only radio reception they get is from United States stations. I think the minister's officials are well informed as to the situation because they lave investigated it, but is any consideration oeing given to remedying it?


Arthur Leroy Smith: How lucky they are.


Lionel Chevrier: The difficulty that arises in the case mentioned by my hon. friend is that the main obstacle is the mountains, and they rould be circumvented by additional power, [f the stations wish to ask for additional power I suppose their applications would be :onsidered by the C.B.C., and eventually by the Department of Transport, but the matter tias been and still is being given consideration. [ realize that it is a difficult position, but it is me which is caused because of geography more than anything else.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
514.	Issue of radio receiving licences-(transport department only), $666,254.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister tell us what the present status is of the discussions that have been taking place about the amount of the radio licence fee? Is it still $2.50, or is it going up or down?


Lionel Chevrier: The licence fee is still $2.50.


Arthur Leroy Smith: I want to make ane remark about this item. This is-what is a parliamentary word-the most insidious bit of camouflage in financing I have ever
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known in my life. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation permits your poor unfortunate department to do all the work for them and then turns over the whole fee to the C.B.C. in spite of the work that you and your officials have done. Why in this House of Commons we do not face this thing and give the C.B.C. the money they want without this ostrich business of financing is absolutely more than I can understand.


Heber Harold Hatfield: This costs more to collect than it is worth.


Frederick Davis Shaw: In the details on page 295 I see provision for temporary assistance in the amount of $163,608. Does that cover in the main those persons who go around knocking on the doors of Canadian householders in an effort to ascertain whether or not they have radio licences?


Lionel Chevrier: No, it does not.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Then where may one find a record of the amounts paid to those men who do go around to the houses?


Lionel Chevrier: Some time ago I tabled a return in the house indicating that certain sums of money had been collected in each of the last three years, but perhaps for the information of the committee I might give the amount collected in 1948-49, which was $4,670,000. The commissions paid in the same year were $341,000, which was a very small portion of the total collections.


Frederick Davis Shaw: The point I have in mind is this. I understand the $2.50 fee is turned over to the C.B.C., and that the cost of collecting that fee is not deducted from it. Is that not true?


Lionel Chevrier: I understand that the full amount is turned over to the C.B.C.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Then my previous question naturally follows. Where in the records do we find the amount paid these door to door canvassers or solicitors or investigators, whatever you call them?


Lionel Chevrier: I am told that the commissions I mentioned a moment ago are covered by item 514.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph and Telephone Service-
515.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,263,060.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Does this item relate to the telephone service provided by the federal government in northern British Columbia?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Last summer I was up in that part of the country trying to keep the hon. member for Skeena from getting here.

Supply-Transport


Mr. Cruickshank:: You were not very
successful.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No, I was not. At that time I had occasion to pay a visit to Hazelton, British Columbia, and the employees of the telegraph office there invited me to look over their premises. It did seem to me there was considerable room for improvement. I wonder if that situation has been drawn to the attention of the minister, and whether consideration is being given to improving the building and the facilities with which these employees work at that point.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not know about the premises my hon. friend refers to, but I was up in the Northwest Territories last year-


Stanley Howard Knowles: This was in British Columbia, at Hazelton.


Lionel Chevrier: I was at the station at Whitehorse, or a few miles outside that town, which is on the same line. Frankly, in that isolated country I was surprised to see the efficiency of the operation of this station. It was pretty well operated; the operator was a young man who knew his business, and he had the most modern equipment. It may be that the station visited by my hon. friend was not in the same condition, but it is on the same line. However, I shall be glad to ask the officers who are here to look into the matter.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I just mentioned the matter to bring it to the minister's attention. The point I am talking about is probably a thousand miles south of where the minister was.


Lionel Chevrier: It is on the same line.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The conditions at Whitehorse as described by the minister certainly were not those I saw at Hazelton.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: I wish to bring up a matter which comes directly under the heading of telegraph and telephone administration. I want to refer this matter to the minister with the request that he take such action as I am going to suggest, at least as a temporary palliative.
I point out to the minister and the committee that between Prince Rupert and Prince George, British Columbia, there is a telegraph line operated by the dominion government telegraph service. Going over that line today is the complete radio service of the trans-Canada network, including both sponsored and sustaining programs. At the present time, however, radio station CFBR, which is operated under some lease arrangement, is

not permitted to rebroadcast revenue-pro ducing or sponsored programs. The informa tion I have, which I know to be accurate, i that the C.B.C. cannot permit those program to be broadcast because they have beei unable to come to an agreement with th dominion government telegraphs with respec to a rental fee for the use of the line, thougl I would impress upon the minister tha today those programs are going over tha line to the radio station. The programs whic] are non-revenue-producing are being broad cast, while those which are revenue-pro ducing or sponsored have to be switched oi at the Prince Rupert station.
Therefore no question of the greater o lesser use of the dominion government tele graph line is involved. To have these pro grams rebroadcast would involve no cash out lay as far as the taxpayers of Canada ar concerned. Not one cent would be involved I am informed, and I believe the informatioi to be correct, that the amount suggested a a fair rental by the dominion governmen telegraphs is $30,000 a year, which they ar asking the Canadian Broadcasting Corpora tion to pay but which the C.B.C. has decidei it is not in a position to pay.


Lionel Chevrier: If I may correct my hon friend, the amount asked is $18,000.


Edward Turney Applewhaite: I am glad indeed to hea that, because the information I was givei not very long ago was to the effect that i was $30,000; and that was the figure quotei before the board of transport commissioners I am glad it has been reduced to $18,000 because I might hope that figure would pro vide a basis for negotiation.
In the meantime the suggestion I want ti make to the minister is this. Both the C.B.C and the dominion government telegraphs though they may be separate bodies, ar forms of governmental agencies or crowi corporations. That being so, would it not b< possible to give permission to have thesi programs broadcast while negotiations an going on? Why should the residents of tha district, who are paying their radio licenci fees, have to go without the programs the; want to hear while these negotiations are ii progress? It might be said that to do thi would weaken the position of the dominioi government telegraphs in their negotiation; with the C.B.C. I strongly suggest that thi; should not be the case; otherwise it woul( indicate that one government departmen apparently is trying to make money out o: the other.
I know the departmental excuses o: reasons; I know the difficulties in connectioi

with the solution of interdepartmental problems of this kind; I also know the answers to the questions that have been raised. I find it very difficult indeed to believe that this has been going on with the minister's knowledge; and I find it impossible to believe that it will continue with the minister's knowledge and approval. I suggest that it is an unfortunate situation when on Monday morning the member for that district receives telegrams from the city of Prince Rupert on the Pacific coast asking who won and what was the score in the Saturday night hockey game in Toronto, which of course is a polite way of telling me they cannot get the Imperial Oil hockey broadcast, which is one of the programs they really want. I could talk for forty minutes without repeating myself on this subject, but I am not going to do so. In view of the fact that governmental expenditure is not involved, I am just going to urge the minister to give these people the programs they want for Christmas.


Lionel Chevrier: I think the hon. member has raised a point that is quite a sore one in the area from which he comes, and I am not at all surprised that he should be quite angry and disturbed about the situation. But there is more to the position than that which he has placed on the record, and I do not want to enter into a discussion of the various points involved at this time. It does seem unfortunate-and I agree with him in this respect-that two government bodies could not agree on what should be done. I have already taken up the suggestion which he has made. In fact, I brought it to the attention of the two branches concerned, and I must say that it did not seem to appeal to them. But I am fully conversant with the problem, and I can assure my hon. friend that I will give it my personal attention.


Mr. Benidickson:: The same condition
prevails, of two government bodies scrapping about who is going to assume the bookkeeping in these matters, in the district of Rainy River. There the two culprits are the C. B. C. and the Canadian National Railways. I think you will find there is something similar there.


Edmund Davie Fulton: In the south central part of British Columbia from which I come, large areas are covered by the government telephone and telegraph services. The people who are given that service are genuinely disturbed lest they should be subject to an increase in rates, not as a direct result of the application now before the board of transport commissioners by the commercial telephone companies, but on the basis that in previous correspondence and discussions
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with regard to the matter it has been stated that the government telephone rates are based upon the rates charged by the commercial telephone companies. Perhaps this may be taken care of by the fact that these are mostly long distance rates, but can the minister give us any indication or assurance that it is not intended to increase government telephone service merely on the basis of the application before the board?


Lionel Chevrier: I cannot say that it is not the intention to increase government telephone rates. I can say that there is no intention at the moment to deal with that subject by way of increase in rates. But I am informed that, if an increase is granted to the company that is now making application before the board with regard to long distance tolls, it may have an effect, because the tolls are applicable across Canada.


Edmund Davie Fulton: I am afraid I do not quite understand the minister. Does he mean that the rates for the government service would go up automatically, or merely that on those lines or those systems where there is partly private and partly government service rates will go up?


Lionel Chevrier: Rates will not go up, as far as I understand it, save and except on long distance tolls, if they are increased, for the company which has now made this application. Then because of the interline arrangements it would be impossible to operate without a concurrent increase on long distance tolls. This discussion appears to me to be entirely outside the orbit of this vote, because no authority has been granted by the board for an increase in rates.


Edmund Davie Fulton: It seems to me the government immediately becomes an interested party in the application before the board. I most strongly urge that the government be represented before the board by counsel. In addition, may I ask this question. If the increase were to take place, I should like to be quite clear on this point. Does it then follow necessarily-and is that the minister's statement-that, say, between Ashcroft and Williams Lake where the service is exclusively over the government telephone line where there is no private line involved, there would be a similar increase in that government service?


Lionel Chevrier: Not necessarily.


Mr. Sinclair:: I should like to ask a question which is apropos of this item. The government telegraph service serves most of the northern part of my riding, giving good pioneering service in the outlying areas; but

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in the southern part of my riding the village of Squamish, which has already featured in this session's debates as the terminus of the P.G.E. railway, to which this government is going to pay a subsidy for further construction, is still served by the pioneer service of the government telegraph service; whereas two adjacent towns, Britannia Mines and Woodfibre, enjoy urban service provided by the British Columbia Telephone Company. This is an excellent service and for some time the people of Squamish and the P.G.E. railway officials have asked that the government telegraph service at Squamish be sold to the British Columbia Telephone Company so that they could enjoy the same service. I should like to ask the minister what progress has been made in this transfer.


Lionel Chevrier: I am not aware of that particular application, but I shall be glad to look into it.


John Ewen Sinclair: It has been outstanding for two years now, I think.


Lionel Chevrier: I am sorry, but this is the first time I have heard of it.


John Ewen Sinclair: I wonder if one of the minister's officials has heard of it.


Gordon Francis Higgins: In the supplementary estimates, item 729, on the same subject, provides an amount of $350,000 for the difference between the revenue and expenditure for telegraph and telephone service. What is the reason for that? Are you cutting rates?


Lionel Chevrier: That is a vote which is consequent upon this one to deal with Newfoundland only, and the expenses are $1,014,340 and the revenue $664,340. The vote is therefore $350,000.


Gordon Francis Higgins: The rates will not be any
cheaper?


Lionel Chevrier: The same.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph and telephone service-
516.	Construction and improvements, $524,192.
Gordon Francis Higgins: Am I right in my belief that this $524,000 is for the whole dominion? It would appear from item 730 on page 9 of the supplementary estimates that the province of Newfoundland is to get $300,000. That seems a rather large proportion. I am glad if it is a Christmas box in that way, but is it really that?


Lionel Chevrier: The $300,000 is in addition to the amount voted in the main estimates.


Gordon Francis Higgins: The whole country is getting only $524,000, and Newfoundland is getting $300,000. Thank you for the Christmas box.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not want to hurt the feelings of my hon. friend but perhaps because of the bad state of repair in which the services were, we found that it would take a considerably larger sum of money to look after them than similar facilities in the rest of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph and telephone service-
925. Construction and improvements (revote, $169,000)-further amount required, $183,500.
Edmund Davie Fulton: Purely for information may I ask why, in the supplementary estimates, there is included a revote of $169,000? I do not understand why that figure should be placed in there if it was not in the main estimates. Was it something that was discovered subsequently that had not been spent?


Lionel Chevrier: This amount of money is for the acquisition, construction of buildings, works and structures, including land, in the amount of $183,500; for assistance to small rural telephone companies, and for the maintenance of essential services. The revote is made up of a number of things. For instance, for the acquisition of a local telephone system at Canal, British Columbia, which was also provided for, there is $8,000- that is a revote. For the metallizing of the existing circuit and rebuilding the pole line as required between Port Alberni and Barn-field there is a revote of $18,600.


Edmund Davie Fulton: Does that include the improvement of the circuits between Lytton and Lillooet, in the vicinity of Lillooet?


Lionel Chevrier: No, it does not. May I answer the question raised by my hon. friend from Coast-Capilano. A memorandum has just been sent to me to the effect that an order in council has been passed selling the Squamish Telegraph and Telephone system to the British Columbia Telephone Company, which is effective as of January, 1950.


John Ewen Sinclair: I am glad to have that confirmation now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Item 729 in the
supplementary estimates deals with the telegraph and telephone services in Newfoundland to which the hon. member for St. John's East referred a moment ago.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Demobilization and reconversion-Director oi merchant seamen-now included in ordinary estimates-
517.	Acquisition of properties In Canada for United States authorities, $24,000.
Heber Harold Hatfield: Explain this, please.


Lionel Chevrier: This is for the payment of taxes on properties at Prince Rupert acquired from the United States government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway and steamship service-
518.	Steep Rock Mines-construction, $59,500.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister say what this is for? Will he tell us what is the total amount that has now been spent at Steep Rock mines?


Lionel Chevrier: This amount is for assistance in the development of the iron ore deposit at Steep Rock.


Stanley Howard Knowles: What specifically is it for?


Arthur Leroy Smith: Digging.


Lionel Chevrier: It is for new construction.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Of what?


Lionel Chevrier: It is made up as follows: additional trackage at Port Arthur, estimated cost $86,000, less the expenditure of $72,000, a revote of $13,650; additional trackage at Atikokan, $2,500; strengthening iron dock pockets, Port Arthur, $19,250; purchase of land, $2,000, and a number of additional items of equipment to the amount of $22,100, making a total of $59,500. My hon. friend asked the amount that had been expended thus far. It is $3,145,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: All of that has to do with railway equipment and service at Steep Rock, Steep Rock to Atikokan and down to Port Arthur?


Lionel Chevrier: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: None of it has to do with any of the equipment in or at the mine itself?


Lionel Chevrier: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
519.	Steep Rock Mines-subsidy, $240,000.
Stanley Howard Knowles: What are we subsidizing by this item of $240,000? What is the total amount that we have spent in this sort of subsidy since we started doing it?


Lionel Chevrier: This item provides for the payment of a subsidy of twenty cents a ton to the Canadian National Railways on the ore that moves out of the mine across the dock at Port Arthur. The subsidy for this year is $240,000. The grand total of subsidies thus far since it began in 1944 is $692,000. Two and a half million tons of ore have been taken out of the mine since the inception of the subsidy.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister any idea of the reserves of ore?
Supply-Transport


Stanley Howard Knowles: If I may do as my hon. friend from Calgary West suggested, refer to this as a bit ostrichlike, is it correct to say that we are subsidizing the Canadian National Railways? Are we not really subsidizing Steep Rock Mines Limited?


Lionel Chevrier: No, the twenty cents goes exclusively to the Canadian National Railways.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I still think there is an ostrich in the thing somewhere.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister any figures showing the estimated reserves of iron ore at Steep Rock?


Lionel Chevrier: The company reports of 1947 stated that the ore reserves amounted to 71,675,000 tons. That is the last I have.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Getting back to this twenty cents per ton, why should not the Steep Rock people pay that additional twenty cents per ton to the Canadian National Railways so that this money would not have to come out of the public treasury as a subsidy?


Lionel Chevrier: This was done during the war years. This ore was in great demand, and at that time the government came to the conclusion that it would turn over the movement of the ore to the Canadian National Railways and pay it the subsidy, in accordance with the amount of ore that comes out.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Chairman, we understood that policy in wartime, but the war ended in 1945. This is for the fiscal year 1949-50. How much longer are we, in effect, going to subsidize Steep Rock mines by permitting them to pay twenty cents less per ton than it costs the Canadian National Railways to haul the ore?


Lionel Chevrier: The Steep Rock mine pays $1.12 and the government pays twenty cents.


Stanley Howard Knowles: This is private enterprise. The mines should pay the whole thing.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is there any agreement between Steep Rock mines and the government that this ore will be carried at a specific rate?


Lionel Chevrier: There is no agreement
between Steep Rock and the government. There is an agreement between the Canadian National Railways and the government for five million tons.


Stanley Howard Knowles: When this was first adopted it was by order in council under the War Measures Act.


Lionel Chevrier: My information is that it was.


Stanley Howard Knowles: How did we make the transposition from order in council to an item in the estimates?

Supply-Transport


Lionel Chevrier: It was always covered by an item in the estimates. The Minister of Munitions and Supply, who had the conduct of this, following passage of the order in council, covered it by an item in his estimates.


Stanley Howard Knowles: When the item was put in the estimates in the war years the moral authority for it at any rate was contained in an order in council passed under the War Measures Act. Where is the moral authority for it now?


Lionel Chevrier: Well, there is a contract made between the Canadian National Railways and the government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Airways and airports-
520.	Operation and maintenance of municipal and other airports, $530,800.
George Alexander Cruickshank: This is not my night for filibustering, so I shall be brief. My question is only for the sake of information. What does this vote mean? I see at page 297 two items for temporary assistance, and material supplied.


Lionel Chevrier: This item provides for the operation all year round of nine public licensed airports leased by municipalities to the Department of Transport. These are at Calgary, Winnipeg, Charlottetown, Lethbridge, Lakehead, Regina, Windsor, Saskatoon and London.


George Matheson Murray: Has any provision been made for servicing the airfield at Quesnel, British Columbia?


Arthur Leroy Smith: The answer is
no.


Lionel Chevrier: There is no item in this estimate covering that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Airways and airports-
521.	Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport, $525,072.
George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to speak briefly, because some of the junior members from British Columbia have already spoken too much. The Abbotsford airport is situated in the constituency of Fraser Valley and is used on an average of 20 days in the year owing to the fact that Vancouver airport is fogbound and all Trans-Canada Air Lines aircraft land there. One day last year the minister himself arrived in Vancouver after the fog lifted-much to our disgust, because we had hoped he would have to land at Abbotsford.
Is the Department of Transport paying any rental to the R.C.A.F. or in any way contributing to the field at Abbotsford for use when the Vancouver airport is fogbound?


Lionel Chevrier: This is exclusively an
R.C.A.F. airport, and we pay no rental of any kind to the R.C.A.F.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Then this item is not clear, because it refers to the care, operation and maintenance of the Royal Canadian Air Force airfields. When the minister's department is using that airfield, should it not pay a share of the cosit?


Lionel Chevrier: Abbotsford is one airport which has not been transferred to the department. This vote covers only R.C.A.F. airports which have been declared surplus and turned over to us for operation.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Then you make no provision for a fog-free field in British Columbia?


Lionel Chevrier: I say we make no provision for payment at Abbotsford.


George Alexander Cruickshank: And you make no provision for that purpose?


Lionel Chevrier: No, we do not.


Major James William Coldwell: What is the position with regard to the use of airfields? For instance, through the mountains there are airfields with station agents placed there by T.C.A., but apparently it is used almost exclusively by C.P.A. What contribution does C.P.A. make to T.C.A. or the Department of Transport for the use of these fields and the services rendered by these station agents? I have in mind places such as Penticton where T.C.A. maintains a stationmaster, or whatever he is called.


Lionel Chevrier: T.C.A. and C.P.A. do not
operate airports. It is the civil aviation division of the Department of Transport that does that. The one at Penticton is one of our airports, and is known as an intermediate airport. All the facilities required, such as weather reports, radio and beams are provided and paid for by the Department of Transport.


Major James William Coldwell: Are there payments made by C.P.A.?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, they pay landing fees, rentals for hangars, storage-if they have any equipment to place in there.


Major James William Coldwell: What do they pay for the beam service?


Lionel Chevrier: There is no payment for the beam service. That is one of the provisions made by the civil aviation branch for the whole of the country; and there is no charge for it.


Major James William Coldwell: And C.P.A. gets that service free of charge from the department?


Lionel Chevrier: And all other airlines do, too.


Major James William Coldwell: They all get it free of charge?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian maritime commission-
523.	Administration, $182,480.
Howard Charles Green: During the discussion on the bill to provide for assistance in the construction of Canadian vessels I asked the minister to bring up-to-date figures showing the number of Canadian ocean-going vessels of 1,000 tons gross and over.


Lionel Chevrier: I shall have that information in a moment.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall the item
carry?


Howard Charles Green: No.


Lionel Chevrier: I shall have it for the hon. member, if he will allow the item to pass.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions; western local services-
524.	Vancouver and northern ports of British Columbia and Queen Charlotte islands, service between, $345,000; Victoria and westcoast Vancouver island, service between, $60,000.
George Alexander Cruickshank: Where subsidies are paid is there any provision under the contract that only British subjects may be employed?


Lionel Chevrier: I do not think there is.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I suggest it might be advisable that a provision be placed in the contract so as to protect our merchant seamen from cheap labour being employed by any company subsidized by the taxpayers of Canada.


Howard Charles Green: This amount of $345,000 is increased from $69,000 last year. Why has there been this increase, and to what company or companies is this subsidy payable?


Lionel Chevrier: This item provides for subsidies on the Prince Rupert-Queen Charlotte islands service, and the Vancouver and northern ports of British Columbia, operated by Union Steamships, for $345,000.


Howard Charles Green: The whole thing is payable to Union Steamships, is it?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. The increase is due chiefly to the increase in the cost of materials and operations by way of wages and salaries.


Howard Charles Green: Are they providing any service which they did not provide last year for the $69,000?


Lionel Chevrier: No, they are not.


Howard Charles Green: Surely this increase cannot all be accounted for by increased wages and
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operating expenses. This is a greatly increased subsidy, five times last year's vote.


Lionel Chevrier: I am informed that the increase is due to the cancellation of the stabilization fund. This company was able to get a substantial sum of money from the fund and when that was cancelled they made application for the amount they had received to the steamship subvention branch, and after the auditors had gone into it they approved of this amount.


Howard Charles Green: Were other subsidies increased to the same extent?


Lionel Chevrier: Those that were in receipt of amounts from the fund; some of them were.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Are all companies treated the same? I understand that certain veterans or combinations of veterans formed companies to compete in these services; are they given a share of these subsidies?


Lionel Chevrier: Subsidies are paid only where there is no competition.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I cannot understand this large increase in the one year going to one company which apparently has no competition and where there admittedly has been no increase in wages.


Lionel Chevrier: I explained to the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra that a large portion of the vote was due to the fact that no payment was made to this company out of the stabilization fund and they made application to the maritime commission for the amount they had received from the fund and were granted an amount over and above that which was warranted by the expenditures they were able to establish.


Howard Charles Green: What happens to a company in competition with this company? The minister has said that there is no competition on this particular run to the northern ports of British Columbia, but this company operates out of Vancouver and when it gets a subsidy that helps the company even though it is paid for the boat operating in the north. There is another company competing with them on the coastal run, although perhaps not as far north as the Queen Charlotte islands. Would that company also get a subsidy?


Lionel Chevrier: Subsidies are granted to the one company only, not to two. I have just had it brought to my attention that according to last year's estimates this company got $388,000; they received $69,000 in the main estimates and $319,000 in the supplementary estimates. They are to receive $345,000 under these estimates, so there is a decrease.

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George Alexander Cruickshank: My information is that there is another company operating between Westview and Vancouver. Am I to understand that they would not be entitled to a subsidy, that it would automatically go to this one company?


Lionel Chevrier: The Union Steamship Company receives no subsidy with respect to the route my hon. friend refers to.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Eastern local services-
525.	Baddeck and Iona, N.S., service between,
[Stage Direction]
Campobello, N.B., and Lubec, Maine, service between, $3,000.
Dalhousie, N.B., and Miguasha, P.Q., service between, $22,000.
Deer Island, Campobello Island and St. Andrews, N.B., service between, $2,000.
Grand Manan and mainland, N.B., service between, $85,000.
Halifax, Canso and Guysboro, N.S., service between, $20,000.
Halifax, Sherbrooke, Spry Bay and Torbay, N.S., service between, $11,200.
Halifax and ports on west coast of Cape Breton island, service between, $6,000.
lie aux Coudres and Les Eboulements, P.Q., service between, $16,000.
He aux Grues and Montmagny, P.Q., service between, $2,500.
Mulgrave and Arichat, N.S., service between, $25,000.
Mulgrave and Canso, N.S., service between, $64,000.
Mulgrave and Guysboro, N.S., calling at intermediate ports, service between, $16,500.
Murray Bay and north shore of the St. Lawrence, P.Q., winter service between, $50,000.
Owen Sound and ports on Manitoulin island and Georgian Bay, Ont., service between, $65,000.
Pelee island and the mainland, Ont., service between, $11,000.
Pictou, Mulgrave and Cheticamp, N.S., service between, $13,500.
Pictou, N.S., Souris, P.E.I., and the Magdalen islands, service between, $88,000.
Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, service between, $54,000.
Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, service between, $100,000.
Quebec, Natashquan and Harrington, P.Q., service between, $448,000.
Quebec or Montreal and Gaspe, P.Q., calling at way ports, service between, $156,500.
Rimouski, Matane and points on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, P.Q., service between, $125,500.
Riviere du Loup and St. Simeon, and/or Tadous-sac, P.Q., service between, $21,000.
Saint John, N.B., and Minas Basin ports, service between, $10,000.
Saint John, N.B., Westport and Yarmouth, N.S., and other way ports, service between, $31,500.
Sydney, N.S., and Bay St. Lawrence, Cape Breton island, calling at way ports, service between, $35,000.
Sydney and Bras d'Or lake ports, west coast of Cape Breton island and Prince Edward Island, service between, $22,500.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, Cape Breton Island, calling at way ports, service between, $20,500.
Yarmouth, N.S., and Boston, Mass., service between, $28,000.
Howard Charles Green: Could I get an answer to my question?


Lionel Chevrier: It is pretty lengthy and perhaps my hon. friend would be satisfied if I sent it over to him.


Howard Charles Green: I should like it on the record.


Lionel Chevrier: May I have unanimous consent to put it on Hansard without reading it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: What is it about?


Lionel Chevrier: It is a list of Canadian registered ocean-going dry cargo vessels laid up, and to date there are 26.


Howard Charles Green: That was only part of the question. I asked the number and tonnage of Canadian ocean-going vessels of 1,000 gross tons and over. The figure is given on page 18 of the report of the Canadian maritime commission for the year 1949 up to March 31, but I asked that that figure be brought down to October.


Lionel Chevrier: As of October 31 there were 118 deep-sea dry cargo vessels built in Canada for war purposes which are now under Canadian registry. Over and above that, as my hon. friend knows, there are 58 vessels which were put under United Kingdom registration and which are due for delivery in Canada in 1950. At the present time there are 26 such war-built vessels laid up for want of cargoes. There are 92 such ships now actually operating under Canadian registry employing about 3,772 men.
As of March 31, 1949, the tonnage of Canadian ocean-going vessels of 1,000 tons gross and over (excluding vessels operated on the great lakes and in the coastal trade) was 981,255 tons. The number of such vessels was 145. As of October 31, 1949, there were 143 vessels of a gross tonnage of 967,310.
Have I unanimous consent to place the statement on Hansard?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Lionel Chevrier: The statement is as follows:
Canadian registered ocean-going dry cargo vessels laid up.
Acadia Overseas Freighters Ltd.
Cumberland County, Halifax 9/12, laid up.
Digby County, Halifax 11/26, laid up.
Inverness County, Halifax 10/8, laid up.
Pictou County, Halifax 9/11, laid up.
Shelburne County, Halifax 7/26, laid up.
Victoria County, Halifax 9/5, laid up.
Andros Shipping Co. Ltd.
Cliffside, Halifax 11/20, laid up.
Islandside, Halifax 10/3, laid up.
Rockside, Halifax 9/15, laid up.
Argonaut Shipping Co. Ltd.
Argofax, Vancouver 7/25, laid up.
Argobec, Halifax 11/21, laid up.
Argojohn, Halifax 9/22, laid up.
Argo van, Seattle 10/20, laid up.
Federal Commerce & Navigation Co.
Federal Mariner, Halifax 11/22, laid up.
Federal Pioneer, Halifax 11/30, laid up.

Ivor Shipping Co. Ltd.
Ivor Isobel, Tyne 6/29, laid up.
Ivor Jenny, Tyne 7/15, laid up.
Ivor Rita, Tyne 8/6, laid up.
Laurentian Shipping Co.
Laurentian Hill, Penarth 8/12, laid up.
P. & T. Steamship Co.
L'Alouette, Amsterdam 9/15, laid up.
Seaboard Owners Ltd.
Seaboard Enterprise, Tacoma 5/19, laid up.
Seaboard Pioneer, Vancouver 4/29, laid up.
Seaboard Ranger, Halifax 10/11, laid up.
Seaboard Trader, Montreal 9/13, laid up.
Triton Steamship Co.
Triland, Halifax 9/19, laid up.
Triport, Vancouver 6/6, laid up.- (26)


Percy Chapman Black: What steps are being taken to renew the ferry service between Parrsboro, Kingsport and Wolfville on Minas Basin? This ferry service was in operation for 50 years but was discontinued during the war. The boat was especially built for the service and was called the Kipawo, the name being made up of the first two letters of the three ports served. The boat was taken over by the navy, used in Newfoundland, sold without loss and the proceeds placed in the consolidated revenue fund of Nova Scotia. Continuous representations have been made to the department and the government to renew this service by boards of trade, town councils, individuals and others. That is the only service in all Canada that was discontinued.
I am sure this was not done for economic reasons, because considerable increases are shown in subsidies paid in connection with other services in Quebec, such as the one between Quebec, Natashquan and Harrington where there is an increase from $127,500 to $448,000. Then there is an increase from $60,000 to $88,000 in connection with the service between Pictou, Nova Scotia, Souris, P.E.I., and the Magdalen islands. In addition there is the large increase of $276,000 in connection with the British Columbia services which we have been discussing.
My views and the views of the different communities that were served are on record and the minister knows what they are. I hope some steps are being taken by the department to renew this service because it saves about 150 miles in travelling between these points. There has been a most unjustifiable denial of a service which has been carried on for 50 years and which was a matter of pride to the people on both sides of the Minas Basin.


Lionel Chevrier: I think my hon. friend will agree with me when I say that before any consideration can be given to granting a
Supply-Transport
subsidy someone must make an application. After all, the maritime commission do not go around the country seeking applicants for subsidies. In this particular case there has not been an application, and until there is the commission cannot deal with it. If my hon. friend knows of any contractor or group of individuals who want to make application, I can assure him that the maritime commission will give it their best consideration.
Up until now there has been no evidence of anyone intending to apply for the service.


Percy Chapman Black: So far as I know, there has been no evidence of the government being prepared and willing to renew the subsidy. So far as I know there is also no evidence or record of the government going about the country and attempting to do justice to this community. Under the pretext and stress of war they went about the country and took from them the service that they had been enjoying for fifty years. I think it is only just that they should go about the country and see what they can do to renew the service they took away from this community.


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I notice that for the Prince Edward Island-Newfoundland service the vote is the same as last year. There may be something in the supplementaries that I have missed, but the trade will be much greater now since Newfoundland has become the tenth province. I was hoping that a change would be made in this item so that better service could be provided directly to Newfoundland. While I am on my feet, there is another service I should like to mention, the Wood Island-Cariboo ferry, and in this instance also the vote is the same as it was last year. This Northumberland ferry has been giving one of the finest services of any ferry we have. I hope that the Minister of Transport will prevail upon the Minister of Public Works to do the proper dredging that he promised to do last year.


Alphonse Fournier: I did?


Winfield Chester Scott McLure: The ferry people will be able to buy a larger boat if it is properly dredged as the minister promised. We will take that up with him when we come to his estimates. I am also grateful for another vote in these estimates, even though it is not so large. I refer to the one for the service to Souris and the Magdalen islands. We only want one more ferry to complete the transportation system on the island. I thought surely there would have been an estimate for it. I refer to a service between West Point and Buctouche. It was the one ferry that had the most advertising during the recent election campaign. I thought the hon. member

Supply-Transport
for Prince would have seen to it that there was a good vote in the estimates for the building of a new ferry.


Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):: That will be for the next election.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-eastern local services-
926. Halifax, Sherbrooke, Spry bay and Torbay, N.S., service between-further amount required, $2,800.
Halifax and ports on west coast of Cape Breton island, N.S., service between-further amount required, $4,000.
Mulgrave and Arichat, N.S., service between- further amount required, $6,000.
Mulgrave and Canso, N.S., service between-further amount required, $21,000.
Owen Sound and ports on Manitoulin island and Georgian bay, Ont., service between-further amount required, $35,000.
Pelee island and the mainland, Ont., service between-further amount required, $10,000.
Pictou, N.S., Souris, P.E.X., and the Magdalen islands, P.Q., service between-further amount required, $56,000.
Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, service between-further amount required, $61,000.
Sydney, N.S., and Bay St. Lawrence, Cape Breton island, calling at way ports, service between-further amount required, $5,000.
Sydney and Bras d'Or lake ports, west coast of Cape Breton island, N.S., and Prince Edward Island, service between-further amount required, $7,500.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, Cape Breton island, N.S., calling at way ports, service between-further amount required, $7,500.
Howard Charles Green: Is the minister in a position yet to make any announcement concerning the negotiations between Canada and the United Kingdom for Canadian ships to carry some portion of the sterling freights?


Lionel Chevrier: If my hon. friend will only allow me to get through with these estimates, there will be an announcement by the Prime Minister tomorrow.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours board-
555. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1949 on any or all of the following accounts:	(a) retirement of maturing
debentures-Saint John, $85,000; (b) reconstruction and capital expenditures-Halifax, $2,644,000; Saint John, $1,850,000; Quebec, $1,150,000; Three Rivers, $166,000; Port Colborne, $84,000; Churchill, $279,500; generally unforeseen and miscellaneous, $200,000; less amount to be expended from replacement fund, $428,500, $5,945,000.
Howard Charles Green: I believe some representations have been made to the minister-


Lionel Chevrier: The Prime Minister may not make the statement.


Howard Charles Green: You cannot bluff me that way. The Prime Minister should have made the statement before now. I believe representations have been made to the minister as to the lack of recreational facilities in certain Canadian ports for British and foreign seamen using those ports. The suggestion is made that the national harbours board could give some assistance with these facilities. It appears that in many of the leading foreign ports, which our own Canadian sailors are visiting from time to time, there are much better facilities than in some of the Canadian harbours. Has the minister given any consideration to the suggestion?


Lionel Chevrier: I have received no representations at all, and I am not aware of any. The chairman of the national harbours board tells me he is not aware of any.


Howard Charles Green: I have here a copy of a letter sent to the minister on March 28, 1949, by a Mr. George L. Patterson.


Lionel Chevrier: That is not the same thing.


Howard Charles Green: That is what is in the letter.


Lionel Chevrier: I read Mr. Patterson's letter very carefully and replied to him. In fact I told him it was a matter which should receive the attention equally of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. If my memory serves me right, in his letter to me there was no suggestion that the national harbours board should assist in the provision of recreational facilities.


Howard Charles Green: I will let the minister have this copy of the letter. The suggestion is made that the national harbours board would be the best body to step into the picture.


Lionel Chevrier: I shall be glad to look at it.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I should like to ask the minister about the vote for Saint John harbour, $1,850,000. What is that for?


Lionel Chevrier: Most of the money is for expenditure on the contract for the construction of the Macleod and Pettingill wharf.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Deficits-Transport-
556. Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1949, $1,159,000.
Winfield Chester Scott McLure: I regret the minister did not correct this item and put it under the proper heading. He has it under deficits.


Lionel Chevrier: I am also sorry I did not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National harbours board-
935. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1949 on the following account: retirement of maturing bonds-Montreal-further amount required, $1,995,000.
Percy Chapman Black: Is any provision being made to take over the operation of the harbour at St. John's, Newfoundland?


Lionel Chevrier: Does the hon. member mean in so far as the national harbours board is concerned?


Percy Chapman Black: Yes.


Lionel Chevrier: Consideration has been and is still being given to whether or not it should be taken over as a port under the national larbours board administration or under the Department of Transport. While there are indications as to what will happen, no decision has yet been taken.


Percy Chapman Black: Could the minister not take members into his confidence? We have been giving him a good many millions of dollars. I do not think he should keep any secrets from us.


Lionel Chevrier: I have no intention of doing so, but until a decision has been reached I do not think I should announce it to the house.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service-
716. Marine service steamers, including icebreakers-maintenance, operation and repairs- further amount required, $115,000.
Louis-René Beaudoin: I shall now call the supplementary items which have not been dealt with so far. I refer particularly to item 716 and following. They will be found on page 8 of the supplementary estimates. These items relate to marine service, air service, civil aviation division, and so on.


Howard Charles Green: These are Newfoundland items?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.


Louis-René Beaudoin: The explanations have been given previously, but these sup-plementaries and further supplementaries were not called at the time.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes.
911. Departmental administration-further amount required, $20,000.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Can the minister tell us what :s the status, or make any comment on the iituation which now obtains in view of the emarks made by certain justices of the
Supply-Transport
supreme court with respect to the actions of the board of transport commissioners concerning freight rates? Where do we go from here?


Lionel Chevrier: My hon. friend is very kind to invite me into a discussion of a case now pending before the Supreme Court of Canada. I think I would be extremely ill-advised to make any comment on that matter. I read the report which appeared in this morning's press, but I have no intention of discussing, either directly or indirectly, any case which is before the Supreme Court of Canada. It is sub judice and should not be discussed, certainly not by the minister and, I say respectfully, not by the house.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Surely the minister has as much freedom as the press.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-
919. To provide for the expenses of the royal commission on national transportation, $300,000.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain how this item is made up?


Lionel Chevrier: These expenses are for the royal commission on transportation, which is sitting at the moment. It is made up as follows: temporary assistance, $12,000; professional services, $241,000; travelling expenses, $12,000; telegraph, telephones and postage, $2,000, and various other small items.


Howard Charles Green: I do not want to take more than a minute, but I suggest this is an example of the costliness of royal commissions. I have no doubt this commission is doing good work; I know it is composed of splendid men. They rolled into Vancouver in a special train of six cars, I think, for twenty-three or twenty-four individuals. Expenses of this kind are pretty high, and I wonder what check is kept on the expenditures of these various royal commissions.


Lionel Chevrier: I can assure the hon. gentleman that no part of the money covered by this item went to provide that train.


Howard Charles Green: What vote does that come under?


Lionel Chevrier: No vote. The cars were provided by the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific at their own expense.


Percy Chapman Black: May I ask who
were the solicitors who received this $241,000 for professional services?


Lionel Chevrier: There are no solicitors.


Percy Chapman Black: This is for professional services.


Lionel Chevrier: I should not have said there are no solicitors. I should have said there

Supply-Transport
are both solicitors and technical men, economists and the like. The chairman gets $10 per day plus living allowance. One of the commissioners gets $50 per day plus living allowance, and another commissioner gets the same. One counsel gets $200 a day and another gets $150 a day.


Percy Chapman Black: Would the minister give the names of these counsel?


Lionel Chevrier: Right Hon. J. L. Ilsley was paid at that rate for a time, and later was succeeded by Mr. Frank H. Covert of Halifax. The assistant counsel was Mr. Pierre Des-marais, who is in receipt of $150 per day. The secretary is in receipt of $40 per day, and the assistant secretary $25 per day.


Percy Chapman Black: Who took the place of Mr. Ilsley?


Lionel Chevrier: Mr. Covert of Halifax.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
920. Grant to the province of Manitoba towards the erection of a school building at Churchill, Manitoba, $30,000,
Stanley Howard Knowles: I want to take a moment to say I am very glad to see this item in the estimates. I well recall, as does the minister, the persistent efforts of the former member for Churchill, Mr. Ronald Moore, in support of this proposal. Many times he invited the minister to bring in an item of this kind. He is not here now to see it, but I am sure the present member for Churchill and all the rest of us are glad1-


Some hon. Members:: Carried.


Stanley Howard Knowles: One would think those hon. members would like to listen when a bouquet is handed out once in a while. I am sure all who are interested in northern Manitoba and in education will be happy to learn that provision will now be made for a school for the children at the port of Churchill.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Louis-René Beaudoin: Shall I report progress, or shall we go on and take up national health and welfare?


Some hon. Members:: Agreed.


Some hon. Members:: No.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Let me make a suggestion, which I hope will meet with unanimous approval. I know the minister has a very interesting further statement to make on two wonder drugs, and I wonder if we could not continue just long enough to permit him to do so.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I would agree to that, providing we are not asked to go on and discuss items after that.


Louis-René Beaudoin: Then it is understood the minister will make his statement tonight.


Major James William Coldwell: How long is it going to take the minister to make the statement?


Arthur Leroy Smith: Twelve minutes.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND WELFARE
[Stage Direction]
252. Departmental administration, $794,605.
Hon. Paul Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: I had intended to make a statement on the next item, but in view of the suggestion of the hon. member for Calgary West it might be advisable to make it at this time.
The committee will recall the statement I made the other evening with respect to cortisone and ACTH, and the circumstances surrounding them, which I felt could be made public at that time. In view of certain conferences which have since taken place here in Ottawa and elsewhere, it is now possible to supplement that statement.
On November 28 I announced that limited supplies of cortisone manufactured in the United States would be made available after January 1 by Merck and Company Limited, Montreal, for research to be undertaken in Canada. Today I can reveal that, as a result of negotiations that have been going on for some time, Connaught Medical Research Laboratories at the university of Toronto are going to undertake immediately to get production of ACTH under way in Canada for investigation and clinical research by Canadian scientists.
The federal government, the Canadian packing industry and the university of Toronto are all co-operating in the project of producing ACTH in Canada. Supplies of ACTH made available in this country will be allocated exclusively for research by a special committee of eminent Canadian medical men named by the president of the national research council. This committee, besides advising on the allocation of ACTH, will approve financial support for research on both ACTH and cortisone to ensure that all available facilities in Canada are fully utilized to speed the research program. The cost, estimated at about three-quarters of a million dollars in the first instance, will be provided for by the federal government through the national health grants and the national research council.
ACTH, like cortisone, seems to hold promise for the treatment of a number of diseases, but since on the basis of present knowledge only exceedingly small quantities of these drugs can be produced, they will be used exclusively for research to determine their

full effects, to discover new or improved methods of production, and to study the possibility of developing related products having similar efEects. Only by limiting these drugs strictly for research purposes now can we hope for progress in finding out how to produce enough for whatever treatment purposes are proved to be of lasting value.
The medical scientists with whom there has been collaboration have urged that persons suffering from arthritis or other disease for which ACTH and cortisone are possible remedies should not neglect the treatment they may presently be taking. As I mentioned in the house a few days ago, with Dr. Cameron, deputy minister of National Health and Welfare, I had an opportunity in New York recently of discussing these drugs with Drs. Hench and Kendall of the Mayo clinic, who are best known among the many scientists who have been associated with their development and use. Both emphasized to us that no responsible prediction could be given as to when adequate quantities of cortisone will be available for treatment purposes. Canadian medical scientists have urged me to state that the same is true for ACTH.
ACTH-known to scientists as the adreno-corticotrophic hormone-is a substance obtained from the tiny pituitary gland located in the centre of the brain of animals. It gives promise of highly important discoveries which may lead to advances in the treatment of a number of diseases. It is, for example, believed to stimulate the body to produce its own cortisone, which has already been found by Drs. Kendall and Hench of the Mayo clinic to produce "encouraging results" in the treatment of certain types of arthritis.
Up to the present, ACTH is being extracted from the pituitary glands of hogs. This gland is about the size of a pea and only a fraction of it contains the hormone. It is estimated that 1,700 hogs produce a pound of glands, and that 400,000 hogs are needed to yield a pound of ACTH.
At present, the entire production of ACTH in the United States is 60 pounds per year, enough for the continuous treatment of only a thousand patients. ACTH can also be obtained from the glands of cattle and sheep, but the yield is not nearly as large as from hogs.
What I am going to say now is said in part with the view of placing on the record the contribution made in this highly important field by our own Canadian scientists-medical men and chemists, particularly steroid chemists.
Since the interest and help of the Canadian packing industry is assured, the maximum
Supply-National Health and Welfare amount of glands will be collected. This entails special arrangements being made, as the glands must be quickly removed from the slaughtered animal, frozen and kept frozen until processed. Dr. R. D. Defries, the director of the Connaught Medical Research Laboratories, is my authority for saying that during the past few months Armour Laboratories in Chicago have been able to forward limited supplies of ACTH to a few centres in Canada for investigation. Although chemists in Canadian laboratories have been interested in this material for some time there has as yet been no production trere of this drug in more than the most minute experimental quantities.
To ensure a continuing supply of ACTH in this country without drawing heavily upon the necessarily restricted supply available for research in the United States, it is planned to use as large a quantity as possible of pituitary glands from Canadian sources. Small quantities will be used at first to develop a method of production in the Connaught Laboratories and the balance will be forwarded to Armour Laboratories in Chicago, who have developed successful processing techniques and will make a supply of ACTH available for use in this country. I am further empowered to state that as soon as production is well established, in keeping with the general policy of this widely known research organization, the product will be made available at the minimum cost.
To assist in financing this undertaking, with the co-operation of the Ontario department of health, a federal grant has been approved from the funds available for public health research under the national health program. An equal amount is being granted by the medical division of the national research council. These grants will be used for developing the process of production.
In the initial stage of making ACTH and cortisone available for research in Canada, an expenditure of as much as three quarters of a million dollars will probably be required during the first year. It is not possible yet to predict the probable cost in succeeding years. The material purchased by these funds will be very limited and sufficient, as I have already emphasized, for research purposes only.
In order to have a supply of ACTH for assay purposes, the food and drug laboratories of the Department of National Health and Welfare have made arrangements with Canada Packers of Hull for enough hog pituitary glands for [DOT] the preparation in Ottawa of very limited quantities of ACTH.
2970	HOUSE OF
Supply-National Health and Welfare The product of this federal laboratory will be tested for potency and stability against preparations of known strength prepared in Chicago and Toronto. It will then be assigned a potency value and retained as a reference standard for the testing of preparations from all manufacturers. This work is being directed by Dr. L. I. Pugsley, chief of the laboratory services in the food and drug division, who in 1933 worked with Dr. J. B. Collip, then professor of biochemistry at McGill university, on some of the first studies made of ACTH. This Ottawa project is the immediate responsibility of W. D. Snair, who has had considerable experience in the preparation and assay of ACTH, having taken his M.Sc. degree in this branch of endocrinology at the university of Toronto.
The development of ACTH and cortisone is an outstanding example of international co-operation in medical research, and of the value of the free interchange of scientific information. It is a notable fact that although the first regular production of both ACTH and cortisone has taken place in the United States, Canadian scientists have been kept fully advised and are co-operating in this undertaking. For several months we have received progress reports from the officers of our department, and also from Canadian scientists who have attended meetings of the committee of the National Academy of Science in Washington that was established to correlate information in this field. We have also established liaison with those who perhaps can be described as mainly responsible for the development of these new drugs.
Early in the 1920's American research scientists demonstrated that the functioning of the adrenal cortex is under the influence of the anterior pituitary, a tiny gland controlling growth and sexual development as well as influencing the functioning of the adrenal and thyroid glands. In 1933 Dr. J. B. Collip, one of our outstanding research men, then at McGill and now dean of medicine at the university of Western Ontario, demonstrated that what had been believed to be a single, simple hormone from the anterior pituitary gland could be broken up into fractions to perform several functions. One of these fractions is ACTH.
In this work Dr. Collip was assisted by Dr. Evelyn Anderson, now in the United States public health service, and Dr. D. L. Thomson, now dean of graduate studies and research at McGill university. The first report of these studies was published in the English medical journal, the Lancet, in


August 1933. Dr. Hans Selye, also working at McGill at this time, who is now head of the institute of experimental medicine and surgery at the university of Montreal, devised a practical method of removing the minute pituitary glands in animals used for experimental purposes.
Three years later, Dr Selye first announced his theory-which is of great interest-about the body's defensive mechanisms against injury and disease and the way in which they involve the pituitary-adrenal linkage.
It was not until several years later that- at about the same time-Dr. C. H. Li and Dr. H. M. Evans of the university of California and Drs. Sayers, White and Long of Yale university, obtained purified ACTH from the anterior pituitary glands of sheep and swine. Dr. Long also worked at McGill university for some years.
In 1947, J. B. Fishman of Yale university developed a method of preparing ACTH which gave yields considerably higher than those obtained by previous workers, and last year Dr. Li's work opened up the possibility of synthesizing ACTH. Also in 1948, Dr. J. S. L. Browne, professor of medicine at McGill university, and his associates carried out studies on the metabolic effects of ACTH on the human system.
As yet it is beyond the powers of scientists to produce these drugs in quantity. Efforts are being made to find better sources or less complicated and time-consuming production methods. Meanwhile, we are ensuring that funds will be available in Canada to further all useful lines of investigation both into the production and the use of these drugs. To do this we must resolutely conserve them exclusively for research purposes as this is the surest guarantee of shortening the time that must elapse-and it might be a very long time-before they can be made available for all that they can benefit.
I have made this statement in collaboration, of course, with the officers of my department, but also in collaboration with some of the men whose names I have mentioned and who have deemed it necessary to state some of the things I have said. I have done so because of the great importance attached to cortisone and ACTH by leading authorities in Canada, and indeed all over the world. The considerable resources of Canadian scientific research are now being mobilized to ensure a worth-while Canadian contribution in a matter so important to humanity.
Item stands.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we should like very much to take up the remaining departments. To indicate at least the procedure for some time we shall take up justice at eleven o'clock and continue for perhaps an hour. Then we shall revert to health and welfare, and then mines and resources, veterans affairs-I understand there are four or five items remaining-the remaining items of agriculture, and then trade and commerce. If we have time we shall proceed with the others.


Arza Clair Casselman: Trade and commerce the last?


Alphonse Fournier: That is the last.


Donald Methuen Fleming: In that order?


Alphonse Fournier: As much as possible. We shall start off with justice and then health and welfare.
It being 11.20 p.m., the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[The following items were passed in committee of supply]:



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
307.	Departmental administration, $1,441,235.
308.	Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices, $37,804,896.
309.	Inspection and investigation, $1,684,665.
310.	Railway mail service, $15,614,667.
311.	Air and land mail services, $22,743,141.
312.	Audit of revenue, money order, postal note and savings bank business; issue of postage stamps and postal notes, $2,168,600.
Pensions and other benefits-
313.	To provide for the payment of compassionate allowances to employees injured while in the performance of their duties, or to other persons injured while performing duties in any way connected with the postal service, or in protecting His Majesty's mails, or to the dependents of such employees or other persons who may be killed while so engaged; payments to be made only on the specific authority of the governor in council, $5,000.
699.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $31,900.
700.	Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices- further amount required, $436,972.
701.	Inspection and investigation-further amount required, $120,500.
702.	Railway mail service-further amount required, $308,400.
703.	Air and land mail services-further amount required, $220,000.
847.	Air and land mail services-further amount required, $80,000.
Supply
848.	Audit of revenue; money order, postal note and savings bank business; issue of postage stamps and postal notes-further amount required, $100,000.
Pensions and other benefits-
849.	To authorize the governor in council to grant, under the terms of the Civil Service Superannuation Act, an annual allowance of $611.41 to Mrs. Elizabeth Meredith Doyle, formerly a clerk, grade 2, in the financial branch, Post Office Department, Ottawa, effective from 6th September, 1945, date she reached the age of sixty-five years, in lieu of the withdrawal allowance of $1,661.04 authorized by order in council P.C. 263/1367, dated 14th June, 1932, which also authorized the removal of her name from the list of employees of the department, effective 13th May, 1932, because of married status, $1.

[Stage Direction]
A-Department and missions abroad-
51.	Departmental administration, $2,170,510.
52.	Passport office administration, $161,907.
53.	Representation abroad-including payment of salaries of high commissioners, ambassadors, ministers plenipotentiary, consuls, secretaries and staff appointed as directed by the governor general in council, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act or any of its amendments, $5,172,363.
54.	To authorize the use during the fiscal year 1949-50 in payment for the acquisition, improvement or furnishing of properties for Canadian government offices and residences in foreign countries of inconvertible foreign currencies from deposits of such currencies which may be used only for governmental or other limited purposes in these countries and which have been received by the government of Canada from other governments in settlement of claims arising out of military operations or war expenditures, $1.
55.	To provide for hospitality in connection with visitors from abroad, $25,000.
56.	To provide for relief of distressed Canadian citizens abroad and for the reimbursement of the United Kingdom for relief expenditures incurred by its diplomatic and consular posts on Canadian account, $15,000.
57.	Canadian representation at international conferences, $225,000.
58.	Expenses of the Canadian delegation to the international civil aviation organization, including salaries of the Canadian delegate and staff, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act or any of its amendments, $22,300.
59.	Canadian section of Canada-U.S. Permanent Joint Board on Defence, $2,500.
60.	Grant to United Nations Society in Canada, $5,000.
B-General-The Canadian government's assessment for membership in the following international or commonwealth organizations-
61.	United nations, $1,335,000.
Specialized agencies-
62.	Food and agricultural organization of the united nations, $191,000.
63.	International labour organization, $190,500.
64.	United nations educational, scientific and cultural organization, $306,500.
65.	World health organization, $108,000. Commonwealth organizations-
66.	Commonwealth communications council, $8,100.
67.	Commonwealth economic committee, $21,500.
[Stage Direction]
Supply
68.	Commonwealth shipping committee, $700. International joint commission-
69.	To provide for preliminary studies and surveys of the midwestern watershed (revote), $26,000.
Demobilization and reconversion-
70.	To provide for the Canadian government's contribution to the international refugee organization, $5,425,000.
A-Department and missions abroad-
766.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $117,500.
767.	Passport office administration-further amount required, $16,750.
768.	Representation abroad-including payment of salaries of high commissioners, ambassadors, ministers plenipotentiary, consuls, secretaries and staff appointed as directed by the governor general in council, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act or any of its amendments- further amount required, $131,044.
B-General-
The Canadian government's assessment for membership in the following international or commonwealth organizations-
769.	United nations organization-further amount required, $33,900.
Specialized agencies-
770.	Food and agricultural organization of the united nations-further amount required, $10,100.
771.	International labour organization-further amount required, $18,900.
772.	United nations educational, scientific and cultural organization-further amount required, $7,100.
773.	World health organization-further amount required, $256,391.
774.	International civil aviation organization, $138,759.
775.	Canada's contribution to the administration of the general agreement on tariffs and trade, $20,750.
International civil aviation organization-
776.	To provide the international civil aviation organization with office accommodation at cost, $63,927.
International joint commission-
777.	To provide for Canada's share of an investigation on the matter of air pollution in the vicinity of Detroit and Windsor, $33,000.
Demobilization and reconversion-
778.	Near East relief, $65,000.
779.	International children's emergency fund, $1,075,000.
[Stage Direction]
Canals service-
455.	Canals service-administration, $81,400.
456.	Canals-operation and maintenance, $3,809,650.
457.	Canals-construction and improvements (revote $910,000), $3,588,333.
458.	To provide for expenses in connection with St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations, $20,000.
459.	Supervision and control of water diverted for the hydro electric power development of the Beau-harnois Light, Heat and Power Company, Limited, $2,500.
Marine service-
460.	Marine service administration, $17,830.
461.	Administration of floating equipment, $31,900.
462.	Nautical service administration, $490,670.
463.	Marine service steamers, including icebreakers-maintenance, operation and repairs, $2,985,978.
464.	Construction, maintenance and supervision of aids to navigation, including salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $4,036,891.
465.	Agencies-salaries and office expenses, $371,414.
466.	Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $5,000.
467.	To provide for breaking ice in Thunder Bay, Lake Superior and other points deemed advisable in the interests of navigation, $30,000.
468.	To provide for Canada's share of the cost of the North Atlantic ice patrol, $20,000.
469.	Administration of pilotage, including authority for temporary recoverable advances; contributions, and the operation and maintenance, as required of necessary pilot vessels in certain pilotage districts, $270,965.
470.	Life saving service, including rewards for saving life (revote $129,240), $404,710.
471.	To provide subsidies for wrecking plants- Quebec and British Columbia, $65,000.
472.	Grants of $300 each to the Royal Arthur Sailors' Institute at Port Arthur, Ontario and the Welland Canal Seamen's Institute, $600.
473.	Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping, including grants as detailed in the estimates; and provision to settle claims by the board of trade, London, England, for expenses incurred, in respect of Canadian distressed seamen of British ships registered out of Canada, $106,207.
474.	Steamship inspection and the carrying out of the provisions of the conventions for the safety of life at sea and load lines, $336,000.
475.	Marine signal service, $142,770.
476.	River St. Lawrence ship channel-contract dredging in the St. Lawrence river and Montreal harbour, including cost of administration-capital, $3,124,055.
477.	River St. Lawrence ship channel-operation and maintenance, $622,258.
478.	To provide towards the construction of a service vessel for the eastern arctic patrol (estimated cost $2,400,000)-capital (revote $825,000), $2,100,000.
479.	To	provide	towards	the	construction	of	a
lighthouse supply and buoy vessel for the east coast (estimated cost of $1,890,000)-capital (revote $700,000), $1,400,000.
480.	To	provide	towards	the	construction	of	a
lightship for the port of Saint John, N.B. (estimated cost $741,850)-capital (revote $520,000), $681,000.
481.	To provide for the construction of a general service workboat to be operated out of Parry Sound, Ont. agency-capital (revote $30,000), $41,500.
482.	To	provide	towards	the	construction	of	alighthouse supply	and buoy vessel for the	west
coast (estimated cost $900,000)-capital, $899,000.
Railway service-
483.	Repairs and expenses in connection with the operation and maintenance of official railway cars under the jurisdiction of the department, $64,000.
484.	Hudson Bay Railway-construction and improvements-capital (revote $80,000), $168,000.
485.	Hudson Bay Railway-to provide for the difference between the expenditures for operation and maintenance and revenue accruing from operation during the year ending March 31, 1950, not exceeding $500,000.
486.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals -construction and improvement of terminal facilities-capital (revote $1,372,000), $1,400,000.

487.	Strait of Canso-transportation improvements and facilities-capital (revote), $500,000.
Maritime Freight Rates Act-
488.	To hereby authorize and provide for the payment from time to time during the fiscal year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company of the difference (estimated by the Canadian National Railway Company and certified by the auditors of the said company to the Minister of Transport as and when required by the said minister) occurring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (upon the same basis as set out in section 9 of the said act with respect to companies therein referred to) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1949 under the tariffs approved on the eastern lines (as referred to in section 2 of the said act) of the Canadian National Railways, $5,503,000.
489.	Amount required to provide for payment from time to time during the fiscal year 1949-50 of the difference (estimated by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada and certified by the said board to the Minister of Transport, as and when required by the said minister) occurring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (referred to in section 9 of the said act) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1949 under the tariffs approved by the following companies: Canada and Gulf Terminal Railway; Canadian Pacific Railway, including: Fredericton and Grand Lake Coal and Railway Company and New Brunswick Coal and Railway Company; Cumberland Railway and Coal Company; Dominion Atlantic Railway; Maritime Coal, Railway and Power Company; Sydney and Louisburg Railway; Temiscouata Railway Company, $1,400,000.
490.	Canadian government railways-repairs to Ogden Point piers, Victoria, B.C., $165,000. Government employees' compensation-
491.	Administration of the Government Employees' Compensation Act, $59,275.
Pensions and other benefits-
492.	Compassionate allowance to recoup the workmen's compensation board of British Columbia in continuation of a pension granted and to be paid by that board up to the 31st March, 1950, in the sum of $40 per month to the widow of the late E. J. McCoskrie, who was formerly employed as port warden at Prince Rupert, B.C., and who was killed while in the performance of his duties, $480.
493.	Amount required to pay pensions at the rate of $300 per annum to former pilots: Alphonse Asselin, Raoul Lachance, Adelard DeLisle, George Larochelle, Wilhelm Langlois, Arthur Baquet, Auguste Santerre, Jules Lamarre, Alexander Larochelle, $2,700.
494.	Railway employees' provident fund-to supplement pension allowances under the provisions of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railway Employees' Provident Fund Act so as to make the minimum payment during the period January 1, 1949, to March 31, 1950, the sum of $30 per month instead of $20 as fixed by the said act, $16,000.
Air service-
495.	Air transport board-salaries and office expenses, $188,745.
496.	Air service administration, $129,775.
Civil aviation division-
497.	Control of civil aviation, including the administration of the Aeronautics Act and regulations issued thereunder, $645,124.
Supply
Airways and airports-
498.	Construction and improvements, including radio facilities; and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $100,000 (revote $2,303,650)-capital, $13,097,300.
Operation and maintenance-
499.	Civil aviation services, $3,842,568.
500.	Radio aviation services, $4,097,050.
501.	Airway and airport traffic control, $945,044.
502.	Grants to organizations for the development of civil aviation, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $310,000.
503.	Contributions, subject to the approval of the governor in council, to assist municipalities to improve existing airports, the sites of which have been provided by such municipalities (revote $164,000), $264,000.
504.	To provide for a dominion contribution to the improvement and reconstruction of the road between Patricia Bay airport, Vancouver island, and the city limits of Victoria, B.C., subject to the completion of an agreement between the dominion and the province of British Columbia, $150,000.
505.	To authorize contribution of an amount not exceeding $30,420 to the state of Michigan, U.S.A., Department of Aeronautics, towards the cost of operation and maintenance of certain airways facilities at Grand Marais, Michigan, for use of Canadian aircraft, $30,420.
506.	Contribution to the international civil aviation organization as Canada's portion of the financial assistance to the government of Iceland in respect of the provision, operation and maintenance of certain air navigation services, $48,000.
Northwest communication system-
507.	Additions and betterments, including transport equipment-capital-formerly under demobilization and reconversion estimates, $500,000.
508.	To provide for the difference between the expenditures for operation and maintenance and revenue accruing from operations during the year ending March 31, 1950-formerly under demobilization and reconversion estimates, $343,016.
Meteorological division-
509.	Meteorological services, $4,840,315.
510.	Construction and improvements, $587,500. Radio division-
511.	Administration of the Radio Act and regulations, $1,075,425.
512.	Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons and radio telegraph stations, operation and maintenance, $1,778,283.
513.	Suppression of radio interferences, $357,978.
514.	Issue of radio receiving licences-(Transport Department only), $666,254.
Telegraph and telephone service-
515.	Administration, operation and maintenance, $1,263,060.
516.	Construction and improvements, $524,192.
Demobilization and reconversion-Director of merchant seamen-now included in ordinary estimates-
517.	Acquisition of properties in Canada for United States authorities, $24,000.
Railway and steamship service-
518.	Steep Rock mines-construction, $59,500.
519.	Steep Rock mines-subsidy, $240,000.
[Stage Direction]
Supply
Air service-civil aviation division-airways and airports-
520.	Operation and maintenance of municipal and other airports, $530,800.
521.	Care, operation and maintenance of Royal Canadian Air Force airfields transferred to the Department of Transport, $525,072.
522.	North East (Crimson) staging route-maintenance of airfields, $19,825.
B-Canadian maritime commission-
523.	Administration, $182,480.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-western local services-
'524. Vancouver and northern ports of British Columbia and Queen Charlotte islands, service between, $345,000.
Victoria and west coast Vancouver island, service between, $60,000.
Eastern local services-
525. Baddeck and Iona, N.S., service between,
[Stage Direction]
Campobello, N.B., and Lubec, Maine, service between, $3,000.
Dalhousie, N.B., and Miguasha, P.Q., service between, $22,000.
Deer island, Campobello island and St. Andrews, N.B., service between, $2,000.
Grand Manan and mainland, N.B., service between, $85,000.
Halifax, Canso and Guysboro, N.S., service between, $20,000.
Halifax, Sherbrooke, Spry Bay and Torbay, N.S., service between, $11,200.
Halifax and ports on west coast of Cape Breton island, service between, $6,000.
Ile-aux-Coudres and Les Eboulements, P.Q., service between, $16,000.
Ile-aux-Grues and Montmagny, P.Q., service between, $2,500.
Mulgrave and Arichat, N.S., service between, $25,000.
Mulgrave and Canso, N.S., service between, $64,000.
Mulgrave and Guysboro, N.S., calling at intermediate ports, service between, $16,500.
Murray Bay and north shore of the St. Lawrence, P.Q., winter service between, $50,000.
Owen Sound and ports on Manitoulin island and Georgian bay, Ont., service between, $65,000.
Pelee island and the mainland, Ont., service between, $11,000.
Pictou, Mulgrave and Cheticamp, N.S., service between, $13,500.
Pictou, N.S., Souris, P.E.I., and the Magdalen islands, service between, $88,000.
Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland, service between, $54,000.
Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, service between, $100,000.
Quebec, Natashquan and Harrington, P.Q., service between, $448,000.
Quebec or Montreal and Gaspe, P.Q., calling at way ports, service between, $156,500.
Rimouski, Matane and points on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, P.Q., service between, $125,500.
Riviere-du-Loup	and St.	Simeon, and/or
Tadoussac, P.Q., service between, $21,000.
Saint John, N.B., and Minas Basin ports, service between, $10,000.
Saint John, N.B., Westport and Yarmouth, N.S., and other way ports, service between, $31,500.
Sydney, N.S., and Bay St. Lawrence, Cape Breton island, calling at way ports, service between, $35,000.
Sydney and Bras d'Or lake ports, west coast of Cape Breton island and Prince Edward Island, service between, $22,500.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, Cape Breton island, calling at way ports, service between, $20,500.
Yarmouth, N.S,. and Boston, Mass., service between, $28,000.
Non-active accounts-national harbours board-
555.	Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1949 on any or all of the following accounts: (a) Retirement of maturing debentures-Saint John, $85,000; (b) Reconstruction and capital expenditures-Halifax, $2,644,000; Saint John, $1,850,000; Quebec, $1,150,000; Three Rivers, $166,000; Port Colborne, $84,000; Churchill, $279,500; generally unforeseen and miscellaneous, $200,000; less amount to be expended from replacement fund, $428,500, $5,945,000.
Deficits-Transport-
556.	Amount required to provide for the payment during the year 1949-50 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport made from time to time by the national company to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) in the operation of the Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals arising in the calendar year 1949, $1,159,000.
National harbours board-
557.	To provide for payment to national harbours board, of the amount hereinafter set forth, to be applied in payment of the deficit (exclusive of interest on dominion government advances and depreciation on capital structures) arising in the calendar year 1949, in the operation of Churchill harbour, $111,435.
558.	Advances to national harbours board with interest at a rate to be fixed by the governor in council for such period and upon such terms and conditions as the governor in council may determine, to be applied in payment of deficits resulting from the operations of the Jacques Cartier bridge, $60,087.
Loans and investments-national harbours board-
559.	Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1949 on any or all of the following accounts:	(a) Retirement of maturing
bonds-Montreal, $20,049,750;	(b) Reconstruction
and capital expenditures-Montreal, $1,199,400; Vancouver, $32,700; less amount to be expended from replacement funds, $50,900, $1,181,200.
Marine service-
716.	Marine service steamers, including icebreakers-maintenance, operation and repairs- further amount required, $115,000.
717.	Construction, maintenance and supervision of aids to navigation, including salaries and allowances to lightkeepers-further amount required, $592,580.
718.	Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping-further amount required, $18,200.
719.	Steamship inspection and the carrying out of the provisions of the conventions for the safety of life at sea and load lines-further amount required, $40,000.

Supply
Air service-Civil aviation division-Airways and airports-
720.	Construction and improvements, Including radio facilities-capital-further amount required, $449,500.
Operation and maintenance-
721.	Civil aviation services-further amount required, $3,777,082.
722.	Radio aviation services-further amount required, $415,000.
723.	Airway and airport traffic control-further amount required, $46,000.
Meteorological division-
724.	Meteorological services - further amount required, $77,000.
725. Construction and	improvements-further amount required, $61,000.
Radio division-
726.	Radio direction finding stations, radio beacons, and radio telegraph stations, operation and maintenance-further amount required, $119,500.
727.	Suppression of radio interferences-further amount required, $20,700.
728.	Issue of radio receiving licences-(Transport department only)-further amount required, $8,240.
Telegraph and telephone service-
729.	To provide for the difference between the expenditures for operation and maintenance, and revenue accruing from the operation of the Canadian government telegraph and telephone services in Newfoundland during the year ending March 31, 1950, not exceeding $350,000.
730.	Construction and improvements - further amount required, $300,000.
A-Department-
911.	Departmental administration-further amount required, $20,000.
Canals service-
912.	Canals service - administration - further amount required, $2,500.
913.	Canals-operation and maintenance-further amount required, $35,430.
914. Canals-Construction	and improvements- further amount required, $238,700.
Marine service-
915.	Administration of pilotage, including authority for temporary recoverable advances; contributions, and the operation and maintenance, as required, of necessary pilot vessels in certain pilotage districts-further amount required, $14,700.
916.	To provide towards the construction of an icebreaking vessel to meet the St. Lawrence and northern transportation requirements (estimated cost $5,000,000)

capital, $1,000,000.
Railway service-
917.	Prince Edward Island car ferry and terminals -construction and improvements of terminal facilities-capital-further amount required, $173,568.
918.	Canadian government railway-enlargement of dock and terminal facilities at North Sydney, N.S. (estimated cost $2,000,000)-capital, $250,000.
Special-
919.	To provide for the expenses of the royal commission on national transportation, $300,000.
929. Grant to the province of Manitoba towards the erection of a school building at Churchill, Manitoba, $30,000.
Air service-Civil aviation division-airways and airports-
921.	Construction and improvements, including radio facilities and to authorize commitments against future years in the amount of $455,500- capital-further amount required, $1.
Operation and maintenance-
922.	Airway and airport traffic control-further amount required, $6,030.
Meteorological division-
923.	Meteorological services-further amount required, $59,780.
Telegraph and telephone service-
924.	Administration, operation and maintenance- further amount required, $68,000.
925.	Construction and improvements - (revote $169,000)-further amount required-$183,500.
B-Canadian maritime commission-Mail subsidies and steamship subventions-Eastern local services-
926.	Halifax, Sherbrooke, Spry Bay and Torbay, N.S., service between-further amount required, $2,800.
Halifax and ports on west coast of Cape Breton Island, N.S., service between-further amount required, $4,000.
Mulgrave and Arichat, N.S., service between- further amount required, $6,000.
Mulgrave and Canso, N.S., service between- further amount required, $21,000.
Owen Sound and ports on Manitoulin island and Georgian bay, Ont., service between-further amount required, $35,000.
Pelee Island and the mainland, Ont., service between-further amount required, $10,000.
Pictou, N.S., Souris, P.E.I., and the Magdalen islands, P.Q., service between-further amount required, $56,000.
Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia, service between-further amount required, $61,000.
Sydney, N.S. and Bay St. Lawrence, Cape Breton Island, calling at way ports, service between- further amount required, $5,000.
Sydney and Bras d'Or lake ports, west coast of Cape Breton Island, N.S., and Prince Edward Island, service between-further amount required, $7,500.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, Cape Breton Island, N.S., calling at way ports, service between-further amount required, $7,500.-$2,598,009.
Government owned enterprises-deficits-transport-
933. Amount to provide for the payment from time to time to the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, Limited (hereinafter called "the Company") of the amount of the deficit occurring during the year ending December 31, 1949 in the operations of the Company and the vessels under the control of the Company as certified by the auditors of the Company, and upon applications made by the Company to the Minister of Finance and approved by the Minister of Transport, not exceeding $360,000.
National harbours board'-
935. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures applicable to the calendar year 1949 on the following account: Retirement of maturing bonds-Montreal -further amount required, $1,995,000.
Appendix
[Stage Direction]
Appendix
[Stage Direction]
(Copy of letter sent to premiers of all the prov-' inces with the exception of the premier of Saskatchewan)
[Stage Direction]
Ottawa, December 7, 1949.
My dear Premier:
In a recent letter the premier of Saskatchewan has inquired whether it is proposed to have an agenda under which to deal with the question of constitutional amendment at the conference opening on January 10.
In my original letter of September 14 the purpose of the conference was described as being to devise a generally satisfactory method of making amendments in Canada to the provisions of the constitution which concern both federal and provincial authorities. It was on that basis that the proposal for the conference was made and agreed to. In my last letter of November 7, I referred to the conference more briefly as being simply "to consider a method of amending the constitution of Canada." It had been the feeling of my colleagues and myself that the subject for discussion at the forthcoming conference scarcely admitted of any formal subdivision or reduction to an agenda of procedure in advance. We had felt that each delegation would be making its own preparations for discussion of the problem of procedure in constitutional amendment, and that the question of the best way of discussing it might be settled after we had assembled on January 10. I should appreciate it if you would let me know whether you feel that this is a satisfactory basis on which to leave the arrangements.
Perhaps I might take this opportunity to refer to .another matter which has been considered by my [DOT]colleagues and myself recently. There are many questions of concern to both the provincial and the federal governments in connection with which some discussion would be desirable. Several questions have been proposed for discussion at various times and there may be others which it would be helpful to consider jointly.
If it would meet with the approval of the governments of the provinces, I would propose that a general conference should be held early in the autumn of 1950, possibly in September or October, to discuss general questions of common concern to the provincial and federal governments. The conference would, among other things, carry out the undertaking which has been given to several of the provincial governments which entered into tax agreements with the federal government to hold a general conference at least a year prior to the expiration of the agreements on March 31, 1952. If the suggestion for a conference meets with your approval, and that of the other provincial premiers, views might be exchanged in the next few months as to the matters that should be placed on the agenda, and preparations could then be undertaken. It would, I think, be desirable to have an interval of several months in which to make preparations if fruitful discussion is to result.
Yours sincerely,
Louis S. St. Laurent
(Copy of letter sent to the premier of Saskatchewan)
[Stage Direction]
Ottawa, December 7, 1949 Hon. T. C. Douglas, M.L.A.,
Premier of Saskatchewan,
Regina, Saskatchewan.
My dear Premier:
I have received your letter of November 29 enquiring as to an agenda for the conference which is to open on January 10 to consider the procedure of amending the constitution of Canada.
In my original letter of September 14 the purpose of the conference was described as being to devise a generally satisfactory method of making amendments in Canada to the provisions of the constitution which concern both federal and provincial authorities. It was on that basis that the proposal for the conference was made and agreed to. In my last letter of November 7 I referred to the conference more briefly as being simply "to consider a method of amending the constitution of Canada". It had been the feeling of my colleagues and myself that the subject for discussion at the forthcoming conference scarcely admitted of any formal subdivision or reduction to an agenda of procedure in advance. We had felt that each delegation would be making its own preparations for discussion of the problem of procedure in constitutional amendment, and that the question of the best way of discussing it might be settled after we had assembled on January 10. In view of your enquiry I am, however, writing to all the provincial premiers to ask whether they think it would be satisfactory to leave arrangements on the basis I have indicated or whether an effort should be made to draw up an agenda.
Perhaps I might take this opportunity to refer to another matter which has been considered by my colleagues and myself recently. There are many questions of concern to both the provincial and the federal governments in connection with which some discussion would be desirable. Several questions have been proposed for discussion at various times and there may be others which it would be helpful to consider jointly. If it would meet with the approval of the governments of the provinces, I would propose that a general conference should be held early in the autumn of 1950, possibly in September or October, to discuss general questions of common concern to the provincial and the federal governments. The conference would, among other things, carry out the undertaking to which I referred in my letter of August 18 to hold a general conference at least a year prior to the expiration of the tax agreements on March 31, 1952. If the suggestion for a conference meets with your approval, and that of the other provincial premiers, views might be exchanged in the next few months as to the matters that should be placed on the agenda, and preparations could then be undertaken. It would, I think, be desirable to have an interval of several months in which to make preparations if fruitful discussion is to result.
Yours sincerely,
Louis S. St. Laurent
[Stage Direction]
Friday, December 9, 1949