1949-10-05

TARIFFS AND TRADE


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a brief statement on the Annecy tariff negotiations. As hon. members already know, Canada, along with thirty-two other countries took part in those negotiations which were conducted at Annecy, France, between April and August of this year.
The purpose of the conference was to permit a number of additional countries to enter into tariff negotiations with a view to joining the general agreement on tariffs and trade. As a result some 140 two-sided tariff negotiations were successfully concluded. Hon. members know that these negotiations go on between the principal importer and the principal supplier of a given commodity, and the arrangement arrived at between them then is affected by the most-favoured-nation clause in the various tariffs and is of benefit to all the other members of the general agreement on tariffs and trade.
The following ten countries have as a result completed the primary condition of membership in the general agreement: Denmark, the Dominican republic, Finland, Greece, Haiti, Italy, Liberia, Nicaragua, Sweden and Uruguay.
Procedures have been established for the reciprocal entering into force of the tariff concessions provisionally agreed to at Annecy. Under these procedures no concessions need be applied before January 1, 1950. It is expected that all countries concerned will have put their .tariff concessions into force by the end of May.
The Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) informed the house on September 16 that the results of the negotiations would probably be made public over this coming week end. The time has now been decided by the countries concerned. The results of the Annecy tariff negotiations will be made public by the United Nations and in the capitals of all countries concerned at an internationally agreed time corresponding to 8.30 p.m., eastern daylight saving time, next Sunday night.
An extensive press release will be issued in Ottawa at that time. Members of the house
and of the Senate will be supplied at the earliest possible moment with a copy of the full text of the release, which will run to some twenty pages.



CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD ACT


Mr. P. E. Wright (Melfort) moved: for leave to introduce Bill No. 13, to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act, 1935.
He said: This bill is the same as Bill No. 17 of last session. The only change made by the bill is to insert the words "or Churchill" in the appropriate place in two sections of the act, as underlined. The effect of the change will be to permit producers in the area accessible to the port of Churchill to take advantage of the cheaper freight rates to Churchill, wherever such cheaper rates apply.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)


Mr. Isnor:: 1.	What is the cost per mile to operate Canadian National Railways steam locomotives of the following types (a) 6500; (b) 6000; (c) 7000?
2.	What is the itemized cost per mile of each of the above types of locomotive?
3.	Are separate records kept of the per-mile costs in the different railway regions?
4.	If so, what is the cost per mile of the operation of each of the above-mentioned types of locomotive in each region?
5.	How many miles did each of the mentioned types of locomotive travel in 1948?
6.	What would have been the cost in 1948 had diesel locomotives been used?


Mr. Chevrier:: I understand the hon. member has been given certain information in connection with this question. Perhaps he would consider that sufficient, under the circumstances.


Mr. Isnor:: Yes.


Mr. Speaker:: Dropped.


Mr. Graydon:: When this question was put on the order paper it became a matter of public interest. I should like to know what answer the minister gave to the hon. member for Halifax, because this is a public rather than a private matter.

Questions


Lionel Chevrier: There are two reasons which militate against the answering of this question. First, Canadian National Railways cannot furnish the information, because their accounting system is that approved by the interstate commerce commission for similar work, and to give the information asked for would not be possible without change of accounting. They are able, however, to give an answer to one part of the question provided that additional information is given by the hon. member.
The other reason is that the Canadian National Railways have taken the position, and the government has upheld them, that these are questions which should normally be asked in the committee on railways and shipping. I pointed this out to the hon. gentleman and told him that if an answer to part 1 of the question would be of any use to him, and he could give the additional information required, it could be given. He said it would, and under the circumstances I asked that the question be dropped.



SUTHERLAND, SASK., FORESTRY FARM

Mr. Knight:: 1.	How many men are employed at the forestry farm near Sutherland, Saskatchewan?
2.	What are the categories of work at which they are employed?
3.	Are they employed by the day, weekly, monthly or annually?
4.	What are they paid in the various categories?
5.	Are these payments in addition to board or do the men board themselves?
6.	What is the duration of holidays granted with pay to (a) annual workers; (b) other workers?
7.	Is any work carried on on Sunday?
8.	Is payment made for such work? If so, at what rate?


Mr. McCubbin:: Unclassified employees
1. 22.
2.	Stableman (1); teamster (1); construction foreman (1); labourers (19).
3.	9 employed year-round; 13 employed seasonally.
4.	Stableman, 55 cents per hour; teamster, 55 cents per hour. Construction foreman, $1.47 per hour; 19 labourers-18 at 55 cents per hour; 1 at 50 cents per hour.
5.	Board themselves.
6.	(a) Six days per year, (b) After six months service, one-half day for each completed month of service.
7.	1 stableman; 4 labourers.
8.	Yes, at regular rate.



* FEDERAL GRANT FOR MUSEUMS

Mr. Thatcher:: Is there any federal grant available to cities for the establishment or maintenance of museums?


Mr. Sinclair:: No.



MONTREAL-NEW YORK AIR SERVICE  COLONIAL AIR LINES

Mr. Thatcher:: 1.	What agreement has Colonial Air Lines with Canadian authorities to carry on an air service between Montreal and New York?
2.	Is there any time limit on such agreement?
3.	Is there a cancellation clause in this agreement?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.	Colonial Air Lines Inc. has no agreement with the Canadian authorities to carry on an air service between Montreal and New York.
By agreement for civil air transport between Canada and the United States of America, effective February 19, 1945, it was agreed, inter alia, that the air line designated by the government of the United States might operate on the route Montreal-New York. Colonial Air Lines Inc. was subsequently designated to operate this service, and a licence was duly issued on April 6, 1946, by the air transport board in accordance with the provisions of the agreement.
By air transport agreement between Canada and the United States of America effective June 4, 1949, it was agreed, inter alia, that "existing rights and privileges relating to air transport service which may have been granted previously by either of the contracting parties to an air line of another contracting party shall continue in force in accordance with the terms under which such rights and privileges were granted."
2.	The licence issued by the air transport board remains in effect until terminated by the termination or amendment of the agreement. There is no other time limit in the licence and no time limit in the air transport agreement.
3.	There is a cancellation clause in the air transport agreement.



FOREIGN EXCHANGE


Mr. Coldwell:: 1.	By what method does the coal trade in Canada secure United States dollars for the purchase of American coal?
2.	Does the foreign exchange control board assist directly or indirectly in the operation of a system of exchange futures by which coal importers can cover their commitments for future deliveries?


Mr. Sinclair:: 1.	An importer of coal from the United States obtains United States dollars to pay his supplier by applying to his own bank acting as an authorized dealer under the Foreign Exchange Control Act.
2.	A coal importer-in the same manner as any other importer-can enter into a contract with his bank for the purchase of United States dollars for future delivery up

to ninety days and thereby obtain protection against a change in exchange rates where he has entered into a firm commitment tor the purchase from a supplier in the United States of goods imported or to be imported into Canada on terms providing for delivery and payment not later than the maturity of his forward exchange contract. This facility is available only to cover an over-all exchange risk to which an importer would otherwise be exposed.



NATIONAL PARKS


Mr. Brooks:: 1.	What is the estimated cost of laying out and constructing a golf course in the New Brunswick national park?
2.	How much of the course has been completed, and what is the cost to date?


Mr. Maybank:: 1.	The estimated cost of laying out the golf course is $99,100.
2.	Golf course completed. Total cost to August 31, 1949, $90,247.41.



SUSSEX, N.B., POST OFFICE    REPAIRS TO BUILDING

Mr. Brooks:: 1.	What was the amount of the original contract for repairs to the Sussex post office, Sussex, New Brunswick?
2.	Has there been any further cost for extra work?
3.	If so, what is the cost to date?
4.	Is the work now completed and, if not, how much would it cost to complete?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	$36,600.
2.	Yes.
3.	Additional work authorized, $11,582.
4.	No, work is still in progress. To complete will cost $36,000, the amount of the original contract, plus $11,582 for extra work.



CANADA-WEST INDIES STEAMSHIP SERVICE   CARGOES AND TONNAGE

Mr. Hatfield:: 1.	Are there any Canadian National steamships plying between Saint John and Halifax and the islands of the British West Indies in connection with the Canada-West Indies treaty?
2.	If so, how many ships are in the above service?
3.	What are the sailing dates?
4.	What does the cargo consist of from Canada to the British West Indies, and what does the return cargo consist of?
5.	What is the monthly tonnage on both going and returning cargoes from Canada to the British West Indies, to date, in 1949?


Lionel Chevrier: Canadian National Railways advise as follows:
1.	Yes.
2.	Five.
3.	September 28, October 18, October 19, October 29, November 8, November 20 and November 28.
Questions
4.	Exports from Canada: Apples, autos and parts, butter, canned goods, cheese, cereals, cement, feed, fish, flour, hay and straw, liquors, lumber, oats, oil meal, provisions, potatoes, rubber goods, shooks and staves, vegetables, meat, livestock, general.
Imports into Canada: Arrowroot, cocoa, coffee, coconuts, citrus fruits and juices, other agricultural products, molasses, tomatoes, other vegetables, liquor, spices, sugar, chicle, general.
Month	Export tons
January 			 9,183
February 			 10,700
March 			 4,613
April 			 9,291
May 			 6,117
		 8,562
July 			 9,895
August 			 11,654
September 			 11,345
Month	Import tons
January			 7,409
February 			 10,810
March 			 9,135
April 			 15,584
May 			 16,279
		 18,340
July 			 22,210
		 23,495
September 			 22,147



NATIONAL PARKS


Mr. Brooks:: 1.	What is the estimated cost of developing the New Brunswick national park?
2.	How much has been spent to date?
3.	Will the government assist in the building of a highway from Saint John, New Brunswick, to the national park?


Mr. Maybank:: 1.	Plans will be made in connection with development as the necessity becomes apparent. Estimates for 1950-51 not yet considered-see answer to No. 2.
2.	Expenditure to August 31, 1949, $839,411.60.	,
3.	This is a matter of government policy. No assistance has been given to provinces in recent years toward the costs of improving provincial highways leading to national parks.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. Pearkes:: 1. What quantities of coal, stoker or lump, were involved in the Esquimait naval contract calling for the supply of coal for the current year for all naval establishments at Esquimait, British Columbia,

Motion for Papers
including H.M.C. Dockyard, H.M.C.S. Naden, and the service college at Royal Roads and other establishments?
2.	Were tenders called? If so, to whom were they awarded?
3.	Were these contracts classified as retail or wholesale business?
4.	Were they called for on a b.t.u. basis?
5.	What was the price paid per ton or million b.t.u.?


Mr. Blanchette:: Return tabled.



HIGHWAYS


Mr. Nixon:: 1.	Did the federal government, during the years 1935 to 1940, spend money on, or contribute money for construction of any portions of Ontario provincial highway No. 17 between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie, and between Sault Ste. Marie and Montreal river, to the north of Sault Ste. Marie?
2.	If so, what amount was contributed?
3.	Under what authority was such money paid?
4.	Was there an agreement between the province of Ontario and the Dominion of Canada with regard to such expenditure?
5.	Did the Ontario government, during the years 1934 to 1940, intimate to the federal government that it had designated as the trans-Canada highway, the continuation of the portion of the highway No. 17 between North Bay and Port Arthur, via Sault Ste. Marie?



MOTION FOR PAPERS


Mr. Browne (Si. John's West):: For a copy of all correspondence, minutes of proceedings and other documents between January 1, 1945 and April 1, 1949, relative to the union of Newfoundland with Canada.


Mr.   Si. Laureni@: From time to time the government has tabled in this house official documents relating to the negotiations leading to the entry of Newfoundland into confederation. The last document tabled on February 7, 1949, was a white paper entitled, "Reports and documents relating to the negotiations for the union of Newfoundland with Canada; conference series, 1948, No. 2, Department of External Affairs". That white paper contained, in addition to the official correspondence and other documents, the terms of union and the statements on questions raised by the Newfoundland delegation as well as summaries of the 1947 and 1948 proceedings. There are no other documents of any significance except those of a class which have always been treated as privileged.
Perhaps under these circumstances the hon. member would secure a copy of this white paper, and if there is anything special that he wants which is not in the white paper he might let us know or make another motion for its production.


Gordon Graydon: If the suggestion which the Prime Minister has just made is concurred in by the hon. member who made the motion,
[Mr. Pearkes.l
may it be understood that he can put another similar motion on the order paper without prejudice to his rights?


Mr.   Si. Laureni@: Without prejudice to his rights to ask for the production of any specific document. To the best of my knowledge the documents that have not been produced are only such documents as have always been treated as privileged. If there is any special document that the hon. member wishes to ask for, his rights will not be prejudiced by the fact that this motion has been dropped.
Motion dropped.



MINES AND RESOURCES


Mr. Daniel Mclvor (Fori William) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the advisability of giving assistance to prospectors after they have made a find, by sending a geologist in at the request of the prospector, and, if a favourable report is made, diamond drill the property, and, if property develops, the government take such costs out of the production of the property.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I bring this resolution before the house and the government because I consider the prospector to be the forgotten and neglected man. The prospector has always been a pioneer, one who has served his country by striving to locate and develop our great mineral deposits.
It will be noticed that there are two types of prospector. One is the prospector paid by the mining corporations. This man does not run the same risk as the independent prospector, the man who packs his own kit to go out and endeavour to locate mineral deposits which add to our national wealth. The resolution asks that a geologist be sent in at the request of the prospector.
Some might ask: Who are these prospectors anyway? Sometimes they are university graduates who have specialized in geology and mineralogy. I tramped the country west of Fort William with one of these men. I found he had a good pair of legs, a stomach that could stand anything, a pair of shoulders that could carry a good load, and a mind second to none in Canada. He was a brilliant and well-trained man.
It will be seen that this resolution calls for a combination of private enterprise and government aid. It is in keeping with my own way of thinking, because I believe in Canada we have to have both. Take the story of the prospector. When the season opens he gets the fever and away he goes. When he has made his find, and sent in his samples, and

the assay has come back from the government department, he finds that he has not enough money to develop his mine, and it has to remain undeveloped. Perhaps he has to pay taxes on the property for years before it is developed. It is no advantage to him that there are indications of the presence of gold, silver, copper or a combination of minerals. We believe that the government should, by supplying a geologist, come to the aid of the men who carry on this work so faithfully. If the geologist finds something that is worthy of development, then the mine should be drilled by the federal government and the government should take its expenses out of future production.
I do not forget the years of depression at the head of the lakes, which in some small way were responsible for my entering the House of Commons. We could not get men jobs at twenty-five cents an hour for veterans, but we were able to send men to Geraldton, Beardmore, Longlac, and farther west to another mine, where they received good wages. In gratitude for the services rendered to the people at the head of the lakes by the operators of those mines, I sponsor the resolution, and I believe that its adoption would be of great benefit to Canada as a whole. North and west of the Fort William district, in an area perhaps eighty miles long and fifty miles wide, we have all kinds of minerals. Men have prospected there and have found much that is of commercial value, but they cannot develop the mines because they have not the money. They are unwilling to sell out for a trifle to a big mining corporation. They think they should have their share.
I have tried to obtain the use of several drills on easy terms in order to help some of these men, but I have failed even in that. I say to the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Gibson), through his parliamentary assistant (Mr. Maybank), that drills should be made available to these men who make finds. If the government has not enough money to supply geologists, then it should be prepared to lend drills to these men to drill their properties and develop them. I am convinced that west of Fort William there is a mining district that will be second to none in Canada.
Prospecting today is not what it used to be. The prospector has many difficulties. He has to be a wise man. He must know how to use his magnifying glass. I remember being fooled by what is called fool's gold; it was a combination of iron and sulphur. You would pick it up and say, "Why, I have found gold!", and then you would get a big head. When it was analysed it was found to be nothing but brass.
Assistance to Prospectors
The prospector has many difficulties that the ordinary individual does not know anything about. I think he should receive some encouragement. Where shall we go to get it? To the provincial government? The government of Ontario is most sympathetic towards our mining interests and prospectors. Where should we go? Certainly to the dominion government. They have the money, and they will get their money back. If not, the geologists will have made a mistake.
I could talk for an hour on this question, but I want to allow other members an opportunity to say something. The resolution will be seconded by the hon. member for Chapleau (Mr. Gourd).
(Translation):


Mr. David Gourd (Chapleau):: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to second the resolution moved by my colleague, the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor), to the effect that the government should consider the advisability of giving assistance to prospectors, after they have made an actual find, by sending in a geologist, and if the latter considers that the find is important, of diamond drilling the property, recouping the costs out of its production. It should not be overlooked, Mr. Speaker, that prospectors are generally men with little money, since most of them devote their time and energy to the search for minerals.
I am glad to tender my congratulations to the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Gibson) who has kindly agreed to look over the mining districts. He is now visiting Rouyn, Noranda, Malartic and Val d'Or, and he may go as far as Normetal, in my constituency, in order to ascertain on the spot the importance of the companies and find out the number of people they employ. He will note that the farmers and settlers of my constituency of Chapleau and of the neighbouring constituencies of Villeneuve and Pontiac sell their products on the market provided by these companies and their employees.
With the dollar devaluation, which has increased by $3.50 an ounce the price of gold, and provided the former subsidy is maintained, I am sure that a considerable development will occur in northwestern Quebec. This would justify the extension of the railway line from Barraute to Kiask falls and toward Bachelor lake and Chibougamau, where there is a quite extensive mineralized area, and important companies are in operation. Moreover, it should not be forgotten that gold mining concerns the whole country, as it allows us to obtain much-needed United States dollars.

Assistance to Prospectors
(Text):


Mr. G. S. White (Haslings-Pelerborough):: I wish to speak briefly on the motion, and to deal particularly with the search for uranium ore. I do not know the exact number of producing uranium mines there are in the world today, but I doubt whether it exceeds four. Neither do I know the tonnage produced, but it is relatively small.
Canada has one such producing mine at Eldorado. While from the information available we believe there is a large deposit of this ore at Eldorado, the expense of operation is very high owing to the fact that all transportation must be either by plane, or, during the summer months, by water. Wages are high, but only in proportion to the cost of living at Eldorado. There is a constant turnover in labour because of the climate and the location of the mine a short distance from the Arctic circle.
As I have said, at the present time Canada has one producing uranium mine. Nevertheless there is every reason to believe that Canada has rich potentials in the Pre-Cambrian shield, which is the most important host rock for pitchblende. With a determined effort and proper incentive, Canada should become a leader in uranium production. Uranium is and will be found to be a scarce mineral. Our security as a nation, and the security of the western countries, depends on Canada and the western countries obtaining a far greater supply of this mineral than is produced at present.
The recent announcement in this house in reference to the atomic bomb explosion in Russia has made us more conscious of the source of atomic energy that lies buried in Canada. In May of this year the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) addressed the graduating class of engineers at McGill university, and I quote from a news report of his address:
A Canadian cabinet minister Friday night spelled out a field of development in the future that is "almost beyond imagination."
That field, Trade Minister Howe told engineering graduates of McGill university, is in atomic energy over which "military implications" have thrown a "temporary cloud of secrecy."
While "the international situation may delay progress temporarily, the day will surely come," he said "when the peaceful use and application of this new and fantastically large source of energy from atoms will certainly open up a new and potentially great field of engineering, technology, industry and opportunity."
Canada is in the "front line of this the most exciting scientific venture of all times," Mr. Howe said in an address prepared for delivery.
I think all hon. members will agree with that statement; but I would ask the minister if he is satisfied that at the present time the government is doing all that can be done to assist in the discovery of uranium ore. At page 11 of the third annual report of the
[Mr Gourd (Chapleau).]

atomic energy control board for 1948-49 I find these two paragraphs under the heading "Prospecting and mining":
The establishment by the government of a guaranteed minimum price of $2.75 per pound of contained uranium oxide (U3O8) in acceptable ores or concentrates was announced in March, 1948 . . .
The Department of Mines and Resources offered to make, without charge, radioactivity tests on samples sent in by prospectors and, where the results of these tests warranted, to make further chemical and other tests and thorium determinations. The response taxed the facilities of the department to the utmost, more than 3,000 samples having been dealt with since April, 1948.
You will note, Mr. Speaker, that the price set by the government is $2.75 per pound for contained uranium oxide in acceptable ore concentrates. I would point out that the price paid by the government of the United States is $3.50 per pound; and with the recent devaluation of the Canadian dollar our government will receive $3.85 for each pound sold to the United States government, for which the government of Canada will pay only $2.75.
In the second paragraph I read it is stated that the facilities of the Department of Mines and Resources were taxed to the utmost to conduct these tests. I would suggest to the Minister of Mines and Resources that the facilities of his department are totally inadequate to help uranium producers. I believe the department needs many more expert mineralogists and much more technical equipment to handle the ever-increasing volume of work sent in from the uranium fields. There are often long delays; I know of some cases in which months have elapsed before producers have received a full and final analysis of their samples.
I suggest also to the minister that his department is not sufficiently active in promoting field work in connection with the search for uranium ore. I believe it would be of great benefit to prospectors and miners if officials of his department could make examinations of new properties and report thereon. A recent press dispatch announced that the government of the United States will pay a prize of $10,000 for new discoveries of uranium ore. No prize of any kind has been offered by the Canadian government for new finds, nor has this government provided capital to bring new uranium mines into production. While I firmly believe in the system of free enterprise, in view of the fact that our very destiny may hang on the discovery and development of uranium ore, and in view of the time element involved, I believe the government should provide the necessary funds.
If something of this kind is not done, large United States mining companies may take over and control our uranium mines. Under

the present regulations, all uranium ore produced in this country must be sold to and controlled by the Canadian government, but the picture might become very different if our uranium mines should be owned and controlled by United States interests. In such case any government here certainly would be under great pressure from the United States owners. Let us suppose that the du Pont interests obtained control of important Canadian uranium mines. Does any hon. member honestly believe that under present conditions, with our whole economy, our defence plans, in fact every phase of our national life, bound up with United States policy, any Canadian government would not be subjected to the most extreme pressure from United States owners of such mines?
The county of Hastings, which forms part of the riding I have the honour to represent, has shown every promise of becoming a large uranium ore producer. I am sure the Minister of Trade and Commerce is aware of the assay results of the samples of uranium ore from that county. If those properties prove out as the samples would indicate, Hastings county will be in the forefront of uranium ore production. The deposits which have been located so far are close to railway and hydro facilities, and also to provincial highways. In every respect the cost of production would be much less than the cost at Eldorado.
I would point out to hon. members that a deposit of uranium ore is very different from a deposit of iron, gold, silver, copper or any other mineral. The initial problems are of great technical complexity. In my opinion to locate a deposit of uranium ore is from ten to twenty times more difficult than to locate a deposit of gold. I hardly need to emphasize the great need for laboratories, technical staff and financial assistance in the search for and production of this strategic mineral, nor do I need to point out that the country with the most uranium will be in a position of unparalleled strength.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I offer the following suggestions to the government in connection with their policy concerning uranium production in Canada:
1.	That the government pay $5 per pound for uranium oxide.
2.	That the government construct and operate a large laboratory to assist miners and producers.
3.	That the government provide a field corps of geologists and mineralogists to visit and advise on all mines and prospects.
4.	That the government offer a prize at least equal to the $10,000 offered by the United States government to every individual who discovers a deposit that develops into a commercial mine.
Assistance to Prospectors
5.	That, where necessary, the government provide capital to bring mines into early production.
6.	That the committee on atomic energy, promised by the Minister of Trade and Commerce a few days ago, be set up as soon as possible.


Mr. J. A. Simmons (Yukon-Mackenzie River):: Mr. Speaker, I am heartily in favour of this resolution, and take great pleasure in supporting it. As hon. members probably are aware, mining is the principal industry in the constituency I have the honour to represent, and I suggest that this resolution be enlarged to cover financial assistance to qualified prospectors, to encourage them to go into the hills and seek new prospects.
It is well to remember that in the Yukon and Northwest Territories large sums of money must be spent on aircraft or other means of transportation in order to get into the field in the first place. It is not like many other places in Canada where the field to be prospected often lies near a railway or other means of transportation. In the north the season is short. Grubstakes are costly and transportation is expensive. What would we have in our great northland today if it were not for our prospectors? We owe a great debt of gratitude to those courageous and adventurous men who risk their lives and suffer many hardships in order to find new mineral wealth which adds so much to the prosperity of Canada.
It is a costly undertaking for the individual prospector. Unless some financial assistance is provided, I am afraid that the numbers in this field of endeavour will gradually diminish. I should like to see some plan worked out under which a bona fide prospector in the north would receive a clear grant of at least $500 per season. This would be a subsidy to the prospector, and not repayable.


Mr. J. G. L. Langlois (Gaspe):: I am pleased, Mr. Speaker, to add a few words in support of the resolution moved by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor). Some years ago a rumour was brought to my attention, to the effect that the federal government was planning an appropriation of funds to encourage the discovery and development of new oil fields in Canada. The proposal appeared to be a timely one, and must have been connected with the fact that the possibility of developing new oil fields in Canada was beginning to impress the government. This growing conviction was not without foundation. Paleogeographical maps or the historical geography of Canada would show that Canada's producing potentialities have been overlooked for too long a period.

Assistance to Prospectors
Whilst the potentialities of the west and northwest are being particularly stressed as a result of new discoveries in the Leduc area, the opportunities for development in other areas of Canada have been the subject of favourable comment by reputed geologists. In the past few years prospectors in my riding forwarded to me numerous requests for government financial assistance in diamond drilling. I believe hon. members of the house will be interested in learning some facts which were brought to my attention by one company in particular at that time. A company did some drilling in 1939 in the peninsula of Gaspe, but failed to obtain production. The official report of the department of mines of the province of Quebec for the year 1940 merely stated that horizons, which in other areas were generally characterized as petroliferous, had not been reached, and that the well stopped short of two possible producing horizons some one or two thousand feet below the depth obtained by this well. It must be admitted that this was a most inconclusive test.
Two more wells were started in 1942 and 1943, and a third one is now being drilled by two independent companies with whom the Imperial Oil Company of Canada is now associated. The first company to which I referred was formed in 1944, after obtaining a special licence from the department of mines of the province of Quebec covering
85,000	acres. This area had been summarily surveyed by the department of mines of that province. It showed promise of a geological formation favourable to the accumulation of oil in commercial quantities. Further exploratory work was done, after which the company was formed and drilling started. The area was given favourable recommendation in a report issued by the government in 1937.
In a report for another company in 1944, Dr. G. O. Sanderson, of Calgary, looked with extreme favour on the Gaspe peninsula. Russell V. Johnston, another consulting geologist of Calgary, was more specific in his opinion of the area under licence to this company. Messrs. Bates and Cornell, consulting geologists and petroleum engineers of Lafayette, Louisiana, the company's consulting geologists, are also deeply impressed by the possibilities of the Gaspe. They even went so far as to write an article, published in The Oil Weekly, in which it was stated that sooner or later Gaspe will be a producing oil field. It was this conviction that led the officers and chairman of this company to risk capital. Owing to the distance from sources of supply and inadequate communications from the town of Gaspe to the drilling site, FMr. Langlois (Gaspe) .1
the cost of exploration and drilling is far greater than would ordinarily be expected. The resources of an independent company such as this one are not to be compared with those of the major oil companies. Yet, it is well known that in the United States the greater number of new discoveries are made by independent companies. It is also well recognized in that country that the major oil companies lend their support to the independents and to the wildcatters because of their success in bringing in new fields at costs far below those usually incurred by the larger companies. The venture of this company in Gaspe has been particularly difficult because of the inadequate communications and the distance from sources of supply. Weather conditions have also been a factor. They have to battle snow from October until May. In addition to that, the general disrepute into which Gaspe fell in 1902 as the result of an adverse report in connection with drilling operations undertaken prior to that time made it extremely difficult to raise capital. The conclusions reached at that time were hasty, and in the light of later geological information there was no reason to look upon the Gaspe as an uninteresting possibility.
In a report issued by the department of natural resources at Ottawa in 1915 it was plainly stated there was no question that the operations carried out prior to 1902 has been badly managed. Yet the report published in 1902 created an incalculable amount of damage Which it is almost impossible to overcome today. The discovery of an oil field in Gaspe would have tremendous economic repercussions in this country, particularly in eastern Canada. Practically all of our crude oil is imported from Venezuela, or from the gulf states, involving heavy transportation costs and the disbursement of greatly needed United States dollars. Crude oil from Gaspe not only would save United States dollars but would result in lower consumer costs and an adequate supply of oil and gasoline in the face of a critical shortage, which will not disappear for many months, possibly for several years.
In that same period I took this matter up with the former minister of mines and resources, and asked him if it was possible for his department to give assistance to these independent prospectors in my area. The minister informed me then that his department would not go any further than the encouragement already given to the development of new oil fields by the reduction or elimination of import duties on drilling machinery, and tax concessions. He assured me, however, that his department was ready to co-operate with any prospectors in my area

and to lend any assistance which was authorized at the time by the government.
I am therefore pleased to give my hearty support to the resolution so ably introduced in this house this afternoon by the hon. member for Fort William, because in fact it supports the request I previously made to the former minister of mines and resources. For the sake of the future welfare of our mining activities in Canada I hope this house will give careful attention to this worth-while resolution.


Mr. C. W. Hodgson (Victoria, Onl.):: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I want to take a minute to congratulate you on your election as Speaker of this house. I feel sure that every representative here will get fair treatment and that your decisions will be based on equity and justice. I know that you will uphold the traditional dignity of your office in a manner comparable to that in which it has been upheld in any previous parliament since confederation.
The resolution before us is a timely one and well put. I think the government should take a hand in helping the prospectors and new or smaller mines; they should extend the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act to new mines especially. In my own riding of Victoria, the eastern section of the county of Haliburton is one great area of mining property. Outcroppings of different kinds of minerals are to be found there, but greatest in extent is uranium. We all know that the government have been frantically seeking new finds of uranium. They spent many dollars in the far north country. In the eastern section of Haliburton county we have a mining area, with a railroad running through it, with hydroelectric power lines and a paved highway straight through it. Considerable prospecting and mining has been done in a small way. The Geiger counters register excitedly over great areas extending over thousands of acres. A few shafts have been sunk to a depth of four or five hundred feet, and some drifting has been done. Some diamond drilling has also been done, but not enough. The samples received from that area have all been of good quality, showing a high percentage of uranium.
If hon. members will cast their minds back to what they read in the press a couple of years ago, they may remember having read a notice to the effect that cores from some of the diamond drills had been stolen. I am not prepared to say where those cores went. However, the New York atomic energy commission gave a favourable report on the findings there. I understand that the dominion government some time ago sent up to that area a geologist, and probably also
Assistance to Prospectors an engineer. The people up there used dynamite, tools and equipment to the extent of $800. Up until late last spring they had not received any report on the findings, after spending $800 under government supervision. That sort of thing is neither help nor cooperation.
In seeking uranium I think the government should make an effort in that part of the country to which I have referred, because there is no doubt in the minds of many geologists and engineers that the goods are there. But, as is known by hon. members, atomic energy and uranium are controlled by the government. I am satisfied that we can bring in United States capital to finance operations in that part of the country if the government will give us a free hand to do so. We need not only their help but their cooperation.
I say to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you to this house, that a great deal can be done to assist in this matter. I am certainly in favour of the resolution.


Mr. G. M. Murray (Cariboo):: I should like to add a word of commendation of this resolution. As the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) has said, the prospector is almost the forgotten man. There is a way in which we can assist him without paying a direct subsidy, although, as has been suggested by the hon. member for Yukon-Mackenzie River (Mr. Simmons), a $500 cash donation to him for a year would be good. It would also be good to provide him with drills, implements and equipment for carrying on the search for minerals. But I suggest to the government that there is a still better way of assisting prospectors-that is by extending the roads and trails into these new mineral areas, and by extending railway services to areas which give great promise of production.
A former member for Cariboo, Hon. J. Gray Turgeon, was a progressive man who has done a good deal to assist the prospector. Before the last war he was in some measure responsible for securing a grant for certain roads north of Prince George and out in the direction of Fort St. James. These roads were used by the prospectors, also by settlers going into that part of the country, and by operators of saw mills as well. But the great pay-off for the construction of the Turgeon highway up beyond Fort St. James was the development of the greatest mercury mine that was ever found on this continent-at Pinchi lake, and there was another at Takla lake-from which came great production during the war period. The discovery of that mine, and its operation, made it possible for the allies to have their own supply of that precious and critical war metal, and made us

Assistance to Prospectors wholly independent of Franco in Spain, and of the Italians, who at that time had a monopoly of the production of mercury on the continent of Europe. If we extend the roads here and there, particularly in that great northwestern country, we shall do something to assist not only the prospectors but the settlement of those communities generally.
I have another example from the Peace river country, and it has to do with the coal mines at Hudson Hope, which now lie roughly 125 miles from the end of steel. Prospectors went in there in the early days and developed this coal. It has been said that the coal in this area is next in value as fuel to the anthracite coal from the Lackawanna valley of Pennsylvania. It is no exaggeration to say that there are mountains of it lying at Hudson Hope; and for confirmation of anything I say in this regard I would refer hon. members to the records of the geological survey branch at Ottawa.
A friend of mine, Mr. Neil Gething, has been in there for more than forty years. This man was trained at Ann Arbor, Michigan, as a geologist, and is a university man. He went in there far ahead of civilization and discovered these vast quantities of semianthracite coal. He has been in there for more than forty years, and is much poorer than he was when he went in. Yet at eighty-five years of age he is still an inspiration to the younger men of the Peace river country and other areas in that part of Canada. He has under his control vast quantities of this magnificent coal, and it requires only an extension from Hines Creek, Alberta, of the Northern Alberta Railways, to make that coal available not only to that part of British Columbia but also to central Canada, including the people of Ontario.
If we wish to make our dollar ring true on the counters of the world, and not have it at a discount, let us develop these great latent resources, and let us take sensible measures such as that advanced by the hon. member for Fort William. Let us support the prospector and thus build up this great mining industry in Canada.


Mr. Rodney Adamson (York West):: Mr. Speaker, I have an immense amount of sympathy for the resolution offered by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor). One thing, however, I do regret this afternoon, and that is that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) is not in his seat; because if there is one think that has killed prospecting and has done more than anything else to hold back the mining industry in Canada it is the regulations and taxation schedules, and the taxing structure put upon mining. It is a burden placed not only upon the successful mining operations, but upon operations which tMr. Murray (Cariboo).]
in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred are not successful, and from which nothing results but a loss of speculative capital

and that is the most valuable kind of capital we have in Canada today.
It costs at the present time-and this is an empirical figure-between $2 million and $5 million to bring in a mine, that is, to produce the underground workings, to build the mill, to open up the levels and the stopes. All this takes an average of approximately five years. That is a lot of money; it takes a long time, and it is big business. The old days when the prospector went into the bush with a grubstake to develop a property are to a great extent over. Today engineering equipment, such as diamond drills and all the geophysical apparatus of mining and prospecting, makes mining and prospecting a very large and expensive business. It is unfortunate but true that more than anything else taxation has put a crimp on prospecting.
The prospector exists by risk or speculative capital. In this day and age, unless provision is made to recompense risk capital for the one bet out of a hundred that pays off, we shall not induce that risk capital to come into the extremely hazardous and speculative business of mining.
What has happened-and I regret this as much as anybody else-is that to a greater and greater extent the larger companies, with their large reserves, are holding blocks of territory which they hope to develop later, while in the meantime they are developing other properties. If there were a sufficient amount of risk capital available, those properties now lying idle in great numbers as moose pasture would have a chance for development.
That is my first point, Mr. Speaker. I feel it is part of the birthright of every Canadian to have a hand in the development of the country. We should be encouraged to invest capital in the development of our great mineral resources. But the government must recognize a simple fact, and that is if one risks capital in the development of a mine, and loses it, that is his loss; but if his venture turns out to be successful he should at least get his risk capital back before he is taxed on any profits which may flow from that venture.
In general terms that is the basic necessity for the encouragement of mining in this country. Let me mention one fact just to show how badly prospecting in this country has been hit. The old camp at Kirkland Lake had been solidly staked for many miles around in all directions, and it was suggested that in order to have the record straight the holders of the claims should restake them and make a new record so that if the camp

developed and if the ore structure was found to extend past the area now considered to be the limits of the camp the claims held would not be the subject of dispute or discussion. It was found that there were no prospectors available to do the job. This camp got its start around 1912 or 1913; it was really only developed during the first war, about twenty-five or thirty years ago, and now there just are no prospectors available to do the necessary job of restaking the old claims. This is an indication of the serious situation that exists with regard to prospecting.
Whether we like it or not, gold has been the magnet which has drawn the prospector into the field. Gold has always been the incentive for the development and opening up of new areas in eastern and western Canada-in the great Cariboo country, in the Mackenzie, Yukon, Yellowknife and other areas. I would remind the house that the Eldorado company, now our major source of uranium, was originally a gold mining company. When Gilbert La Bine discovered the pitchblende it was partly an accident. Gold's value as a colonizer and developer of new country cannot be overestimated.
Because of the way in which gold is treated at the present time by international government finance and monetary control the incentive to look for it has been seriously diminished. Until gold again becomes the magnet to draw prospectors into the bush we will face continuous difficulty in the development of the prospecting industry.
I should like to refer briefly to our Department of Mines and Resources. In this department in Ottawa we have some of the best mineralogists, engineers, geophysicists and geologists to be found anywhere in the world. The personnel of the ore dressing and other laboratories are as fine as will be found in any other capital. But in this department are such things as immigration. Immigration really is a full-time job, because it is one of the most important problems facing Canada today. In my opinion it is wholly wrong to place immigration in the Department of Mines and Resources and thus divide the duties of the minister between immigration and mining. Both matters require a great deal of attention, and the minister cannot give undivided attention to either. The qualifications for both these jobs are entirely different.
Indian affairs are also in the Department of Mines and Resources. By no stretch of the imagination can Indian affairs be considered as having to do with mining and the development of natural resources. Hon. members who were here last year will remember the committee on Indian affairs and the extensive work it did. 1 am sure 45781-35
Assistance to Prospectors they will admit that no one department should have both mines and Indian affairs under its jurisdiction. Indian affairs is a completely different subject which has nothing to do with mining.
Museums and national parks are also under this department. Possibly our national parks could be considered as being related to mining, since they are in the realm of national development. I earnestly ask the government to take Indian affairs and immigration out of the Department of Mines and Resources, and in asking this I have the support of the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy.
I understand that the Department of Mines and Resources occupy parts of no less than twenty-seven buildings in Ottawa. When a file has to be drawn, a boy is sent on a bicycle to the central registry. A department that must depend for its modus operandi on twenty-seven boys on bicycles can hardly be the efficient organization that the Department of Mines and Resources should be and can be and must be. I suggest that one of the first things the government should do in this national capital beautification plan is to erect a building to house the Department of Mines and Resources. In that building should be the most modern ore dressing and ore testing laboratories, and laboratories for the working out of milling practices for different types of ore. There is such a variety of ores in Canada that milling practices virtually differ fol each mine even in the same camp. Geophysical prospecting methods should be worked out, as well as refining and smelting processes and the other intricate matters that have to do with the mining industry. Furthermore, extensive research should be undertaken.
I suggest that in this building provision should be made to house representatives of the different provincial departments of mines. While the natural resources belong to the provinces, the dominion has great responsibility in connection therewith. The closest possible liaison should be maintained between the dominion and provincial departments of mines, and this liaison should be continuous and on the technical level.
I looked at the Ottawa plan, but was unable to find that any new building is being proposed for the Department of Mines and Resources. In my opinion the centralization of the department of mines under one roof, making it solely a department of mines-not a sort of wastebasket into which all sorts of other difficult problems can be thrown-and giving it the most modern equipment possible, is one of the first things that any central planning board for Ottawa or for the national capital plan should consider. We must revive our mining industry, and we should become the second largest gold producer, a great iron

Assistance to Prospectors mining country and the world's greatest producer of base and light metals. The hon. member for Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) spoke quite recently. I may tell him there are very extensive possibilities with regard to copper in that peninsula.
This country, Mr. Speaker, as far as mining development is concerned, has not been scratched. It takes courage, it takes capital, it takes willingness, and it takes the ingenuity of the people. If we can go ahead with that we shall have no worry about our overall economy.


Mr. G. F. Higgins (St. John's East):: I should like to support the resolution so well proposed by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor). I do so because I feel it has real merit. Hon. members may not know it, but mining in Newfoundland is the third in value of our primary industries. We do not live on cod or on trees alone. We have a very considerable mining industry as well. It is for that reason that I am anxious that the resolution should be considered by the house, the selfish reason that it may be of great value to your newest province. The area of Newfoundland, and it is rather difficult to realize, is more than two and a half times as great as the area of the three former maritime provinces put together. That area has not been in any way fully prospected. Yet there are traces of all known minerals showing all over the island, and I include of course Labrador.
I was interested to hear hon. members refer this afternoon to uranium. It was only today that I picked up a Newfoundland paper and read an article about uranium. With your permission I should like to refer to it. It is to be found in the St. John's Evening Telegram of September 24. The article is headed:
Forestry engineer may set off mining boom.
The article reads:	,
An undergraduate forestry engineer who is also an amateur geologist read a pamphlet on ores and as a result the biggest mining bonanza in history might hit Newfoundland. The information in the pamphlet relating to ores said that since the discovery of uranium all ores should be examined for radio activity property.
J. A. Bragg, St. John's man, who was born in Greenspondin Newfoundland.
-thirty-seven years ago, and has lived in Grand Fallsalso in Newfoundland.
-prior to taking up residence in the citymeaning St. John's.
-might be the man responsible for the new mining rush. Mr. Bragg spent most of his vacation time from the university of New Brunswick making
fMr. Adamson.]
surveys for local paper companies. In his spare time he made a hobby of collecting minerals of all types.
For some time past Mr. Bragg has outgrown his hobby and the minerals were laid aside in the attic along with other junk which invariably finds a resting place in the 'hobby graveyard."
However, after picking, up a pamphlet on minerals and reading that since the discovery of uranium all such material should be examined for radioactive properties, Mr. Bragg decided to resurrect his hobby pieces and have them examined by a geologist. He did. And the results as examined by the government geologists showed that one of the collections was rich in the exclusive radioactive property, even greater than the standard sample supplied by the federal bureau of mines, Ottawa.
The bug at present in further prospecting of the area is a matter for the provincial parliament. Uranium is not classified as a mineral under Newfoundland mining laws. This means that a licence cannot be had until such time as a special act is passed.
As a result no claims can be staked. And for that reason Mr. Bragg is keeping the territory a secret until he is vested with the proper protection and security.
In the meantime a company is being formed and will be known as the Uranium Exploration Limited, and will have head offices in St. John's. Should Mr. Bragg's "find" be the forerunner of a sizable amount of uranium it will mean a terrific boost to the economy of Newfoundland. At the present time this mineral is the most sought after in the world and its value is inestimable.
We might very well say, if that newspaper account is correct, that the so-called private prospector is the person who brought it into being, but of course he could only bring it into being with the aid and assistance of a geologist, and that is what the hon. member's resolution speaks of in this case.
I hope I will not be trespassing on the time of the house if I give a brief resume-very brief, I may say-of mining in Newfoundland, because I feel that as much as you can know about our newest province is good for all hon. members. The largest red hematite mine not only in the empire but in the world is situated at Wabana in Newfoundland. That mine, in the time since it was established in 1895, has contributed some 50 million tons of iron ore which has been smelted in various parts of the world, and in a very great measure at Sydney, in the province of Nova Scotia. The mine is actually owned by the Dominion Iron and Steel Company of Sydney, who also own the limestone quarry at Aguathuna.
All over the island of Newfoundland and in Labrador there are indications of iron, and with the increasing prominence of iron, even though it is still the cheapest metal in the world, it may be that in the future the province of Newfoundland, as delimited by the terms of union-and I am not going back to stare decisis either-can make a very great contribution to the future economy of Canada as a whole. In Labrador some 20,000 miles

of that area have been set aside for exploration by the Labrador Mining and Development Company. The territory of Labrador comprises 119,000 square miles altogether, and of that, as I say, 20,000 square miles have been set aside for a period of ten years. An agreement was made in 1938 and was renewed in 1944 for a period which I believe expires in 1953.
Prospects in that particular area have indicated a wonderful body of ore. I made reference to it in the house before, and I do not think there is any question about the fact that in the future Labrador iron will indeed be a valuable asset to the Dominion of Canada as a whole. I believe I also referred at that time, and it will not do any harm to refer to it again, to the great waterfall of Grand falls which adjoins that property. It is higher than Niagara falls. I do not say that the amount of water going over it is as great as that going over Niagara falls, but there is the possibility of a tremendous hydroelectric development there. There is no reason why that water power could not be used for the smelting of Labrador iron ore, and indeed the iron ore of northern Quebec. At the present time, I believe, the company is controlled by the Hollinger mining interests of Canada, but I understand that a number of United States concerns have bought heavily into that company.
We also have fluorspar at St. Lawrence. This is the mineral that is used as a flux for the melting of iron and also, I believe, of bauxite. Interestingly enough, it is also used in the making of freon, the refrigerant used in your electric refrigerator. I do not know how many refrigerators in Ottawa are using material coming from St. Lawrence in Newfoundland, but I would not be surprised if there were quite a few.
I am going into these matters because a number of these prospects which have developed into mines were discovered originally by the lone prospector who went ahead, without the benefit of outside financing, and who usually was rewarded only with the honour of making the discovery, obtaining little of real value afterward as a result. The ore at Buchans was discovered by a prospector using very advanced apparatus, something developed along the lines of radar. Hans Lundberg was the original discoverer of the lead, zinc and copper at Buchans. The mine was opened in 1928 and has been in continuous operation ever since. A very large new body of ore was discovered there only recently.
Speaking of the new method of prospecting, I understand they are even working from 45781-35J
Assistance to Prospectors aeroplanes now. I believe they have some type of apparatus rigged in the nose of the plane which passes waves into the ground, no doubt on the radar principle, enabling them to determine what minerals and in what amounts are in the ground at that point. 1 do not imagine the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) contemplated that type of prospecting in preparing this resolution; it is a little too advanced for the ordinary prospector.
Then at Little Bay we also have a mine that has been out of operation for a number of years, but which in days gone by caused Newfoundland to be rated sixth among the copper-producing countries of the world. We do not produce copper to any great extent now, but at one time we were a considerable producer. We have lead at La Manche, near the peninsula of Avalon. That mine was operated originally by the people responsible for the laying of the first transatlantic cable; I believe the name was Mackay. The mine has not been in operation for some years past. It was investigated again very recently with the idea of reopening it, but I do not know the present position. We also have a considerable quantity of coal. Unfortunately for our province the reports indicate that it would not be economically feasible to work that coal, since the seams are supposed to be fractured to such an extent as to make it impracticable.
I have not given this matter the attention some other hon. members have devoted to it, but the main point to which I should like to direct attention is the fact that we have this vast unexplored territory in Newfoundland. With the indication of minerals all over the area it may be that, if a resolution such as the one now under discussion were carried into effect, the mineral resources of Newfoundland might make a great contribution to the economy of Canada as a whole. I am not a mining man, though like-all Newfoundlanders I have a great interest in the subject. However, I do feel that one sure way of developing the mining resources of my province, and indeed of the whole country, would be for this house to endorse the resolution proposed this afternoon by the hon. member for Fort William.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Mr. Speaker-


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: I understand that if the hon. gentleman speaks now he will close the debate.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I thank those who have given us the benefit of their judgment and experience while speaking in support of this resolution. The object of the resolution has.
548	HOUSE OF
Canada Shipping Act
now been served; we have placed before the government the needs of the prospector in connection with the development of our natural resources. I now ask leave to withdraw the resolution, feeling sure the government will have plenty of opportunity to put into effect what has been suggested in it.


Mr. Deputy Speaker:: With the consent of the house the hon. member may have leave to withdraw the resolution.
Motion withdrawn.



CANADA SHIPPING ACT


Mr. G. K. Fraser (Peterborough West) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, early consideration should be given to including in the Canada Shipping Act, a clause making it law that in future every passenger ship, which would come under this act, be painted only with fire-resisting paint on all interior and deck work.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I did not expect this resolution to come on today, but I feel that it can be supported by every hon. member of this house. Few people know anything at all about fire-resisting paint. Few people know that it even exists or can be made; but if such paint is used on a ship certainly there is less danger of fire. I have seen a number of fires on pleasure boats of all kinds, and in each case the fire has spread because the paint has heated and, as the fire has run on the paint, it has become what might be called a flash fire.
I have seen fires of that sort start in one corner of a building. If a door is open and causes a draught the fire will cut a swath perhaps a yard wide right across the building and then spread from there. If a fire-resistant paint is used even a blow torch can be directed on it, though not for any length of time. The paint will sizzle and perhaps burn, but it will not flash or explode as ordinary paint does when it becomes heated. If you look at pictures of ships that have burned, you will see that the paint has even burned off the ironwork. Look at the pictures of the Noronic and you will see that the fire has cleaned the paint off the metal work.


Lionel Chevrier: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, though the hon. member has introduced a resolution which is unquestionably of importance, I believe I should point out to you that the matter of the fire aboard the Noronic is now the subject of an inquiry by a justice of the supreme court. While the member may discuss the resolution in so far as it affects fire-resistant paint, I do not think he should discuss questions touching the investigation being conducted by that judge.
IMr. Mclvor.)


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I quite agree with the minister, Mr. Speaker, and I shall adopt his suggestion. There are three known formulas for making fire-resistant paints that I know of. I have not those formulas before me, but the one that has been known the longest is the one in which borax is used along with linseed oil as in ordinary paint. If this resolution were given effect and the Department of Transport were to compel ships, especially passenger-carrying ships, to use an approved fire-resistant paint, there certainly would not be the danger of passengers being trapped in their cabins. The painting would not cost any more.
Some people have the idea that a fire-resistant paint must be a water paint, but that is not true. If the right formulas are used, the fire-resistant paint can have a glossy finish, the sort that is necessary on a passenger ship where it is subject to hard wear and tear. Most of these ships are used only in the summer and are, therefore, painted once a year. Ships that are in daily use are painted from time to time throughout the year. The Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) should insist that fire-resistant paints the formulas of which can be supplied by the national research council should be used on every passenger ship carrying Canadians. The lives of our people must be saved. We dare not have fires on our ships.
When I commenced my remarks, Mr. Speaker, I said I did not think this resolution would be reached today. I rose to speak today, however, because I believe time cannot be wasted in our attempt to save lives.


Mr. R. R. Knight (Saskatoon):: This resolution affords me an opportunity, which I have been seeking for some time, to bring to the attention of the house a matter which is germane to its subject matter. Before I introduce that particular subject I wish to say that I concur in the remarks of the hon. member who moved this resolution. Last summer I travelled on a ship and, while I do not want to name the ship or the company owning it, I could not help observe the large quantities of paint that were on the metal work. I suspect, although of course I do not know, that the paint was not fire-resistant. I would suggest that, besides using fire-resistant paint, something could be done to avoid amassing coat upon coat of paint. If the old coats of paint were properly removed before a new one was applied, it would I believe reduce the fire hazard to that extent. I recall that this ship had recently been painted and it was not quite dry. One could take a knife and *scrape off large quantities of paint, some chunks as thick as your thumb. If the paint were not fire-resistant, I would imagine this would create quite a hazard.

In recent months the country has been shocked by various fire disasters, which have not been confined to ships. Small prairie towns which have not the proper fire equipment often suffer heavy fire losses, sometimes accompanied by loss of life. I have noticed in the eastern pi'ovinces, I am thinking of one province in particular, that various types of educational institutions in which the children are boarders are particularly susceptible to fire. In the history of this country there has been tragedy after tragedy in which innocent children have been locked up-I think that is the best word to use- with a resultant loss of life.
In the matter of fire equipment, I should like to make a suggestion. From an inquiry I made this summer, I learned that fire equipment is very expensive. I have discovered that a large part of the capital cost of such equipment is made up of tariff charges. Many of the small municipalities to which I have referred cannot afford the equipment needed to ensure the safety of the citizens and their property. If these tariffs were lowered, there would be a consequent lowering of the price of such equipment. Last year I put a question on the order paper and, like my hon. friend, I did not realize this resolution would come up today, so I have not the statistics furnished me as a result of that question. I did discover, however, that the rate on fire equipment is fairly high. There is a large amount of fire equipment imported into this country.
I cannot see, sir, how this country or any section of this country or any people would wish to profit by keeping out fire equipment which is essential to the preservation of life. I say that, in view of the terror which is engendered by that particular death and the suffering which accompanies it. I do not think this government should put anything in the way of municipalities having the proper fire equipment necessary for the preservation of life and property.


Lionel Chevrier: As I stated a moment ago when I rose on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, this resolution is unquestionably one of importance in view of the disaster which occurred recently. I think everyone will be in sympathy with the object of the hon. member who has introduced it. First of all, however, perhaps I should read the resolution:
That, in the opinion of this house, early consideration should be given to including in the Canada Shipping Act, a clause making it law that in future every passenger ship, which would come under this act, be painted only with fire-resisting paints on all interior and deck work.
Canada Shipping Act
In the first place, if this were to be made an obligation on the part of owners of passenger vessels in Canada, it would not be done in this manner; it would not be done by inclusion of a clause in the Canada Shipping Act. It could, however, be done by amendment of the steamship inspection regulations. I do not think the house would want at this stage, in view of this recent tragedy, to amend the steamship inspection regulations without knowing what the recommendations of the board of inquiry will be.
There is considerable difference of opinion on the subject of fire-resisting paints. There are those who maintain that dry wood coated with fire-resisting paint will stop progress of a fire. There are also those who maintain that there is not a great deal of difference. Following this disaster I had in my office the director of chemicals and explosives during the war years. At that time he made a statement to the effect that certain ships during the war were treated wih fire-resisting paints but that the moment they were shelled the paint took fire. Whether or not the paint retarded the progress of the fire is another matter, and one which we did not discuss. I think there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not science has today been able to discover a fire-resisting paint which would be one hundred per cent effective. I am informed that in the United States at the moment there is being made what is known as "flame seal". It has been tested and approved by recognized firms in the United States. I do not know the extent of its resistance to fire. I know that the authorities in the national research council have been asked to test samples of it.
We in Canada have no regulations under the Canada Shipping Act, or in the steamship inspection regulations, requiring the placing of fire-resisting paint on passenger vessels. Neither have the United States any such regulations. The United States coastguard service, which is responsible for steamship inspection, or what is equivalent to steamship inspection in that country, has, I believe, given consideration to a regulation which would impose an obligation upon owners to paint their vessels with fire-resisting paint, but it has never decided to make it mandatory or obligatory on the part of the owner of the vessel.
While I agree and sympathize with the motive of the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser)-we are all of the view that we should do everything possible to prevent such an occurrence again-I feel that it would be a mistake to do this piecemeal. I feel that we should await the report of the investigating commission. I have no right to anticipate

Canada Shipping Act
what that report might be, nor have I any intention of trying to do so. I think all of us in this house are at a great disadvantage in dealing with a matter of this kind until we have the facts fully before us.
A court of inquiry has been appointed, headed by one of the justices of the Supreme Court of Canada. He is assisted by two assessors and legal counsel. Under the circumstances, if I may so suggest to the house, perhaps the hon. member has achieved what he had in mind in placing this resolution on the order paper, namely, bringing it to the attention of the government. If that is what he has in mind, he certainly has accomplished his purpose. I have no doubt that we were all greatly taken aback by this catastrophe. It would strike me that the better way in which to handle this matter is to await the report of the commission of inquiry. If my hon. friend feels as I do about the matter, perhaps he will not insist that we proceed with the subject matter of the resolution.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I agree with the minister that we should let this matter drop until after the inquiry is over and the report is made. I want to thank him for his remarks. No matter what the report is, I hope his department will consider changing the steamship inspection regulations. After his department and the national research council have studied the "flame seal" that the minister has mentioned, and also the other formulas, I hope the department will put in those regulations a clause making its use compulsory. The minister mentioned that during the war-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, 'but I must point out that he is now exercising bis right to reply, and that in doing so he is closing the debate.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is all right.


Mr. Knowles:: You close the debate.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I can drop the resolution. The minister said that during the war fire-resisting paints had been used on some of the ships, and that those in charge did not know whether they had helped. That is quite understandable, because when the men were getting off the ships, under war conditions, they could not tell just what was taking place. From what I have heard from navy men, my understanding is that what was used during the war was the borax formula and that the borax formula is not as fire-resisting as the other known formulas. That is why I feel the minister should go into this matter a little bit more thoroughly and have the formulas tested in the laboratory here and checked up.
IMr. Chevrier.l
The hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight) mentioned children being locked up in institutions. I think that is certainly another place were fire-resisting paint should be used. I might say to the hon. member that in the only institution in Peterborough where children are ever locked up-and that is in case a child is picked up on the street for some crime and put in charge of the Children's Aid Society-a policeman is always on guard at the door to see that they get out. That is one thing we have insisted on there. I brought this to the minister's attention, and he promised to look into it. I thank him for that, and I would ask if I might be permitted to drop this resolution now, because it has served its purpose.
Resolution withdrawn.



SOCIAL SECURITY


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Monday, October 3, consideration of the motion of Mr. Maclnnis:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should seek the co-operation of the provinces for the purpose of formulating a program of social security that will be national in scope, adequate in its provisions, and that will cover all citizens of Canada in every circumstance where the individual or the family is, for any reason, deprived of the opportunity of earning a living.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Question.


Mr. E. A. McCusker (Regina City):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member for Melfort (Mr. Wright) stated, as reported at page 475 of Hansard:
The hon. member left the wrong impression as far as cancer treatment is concerned. The hon. member stated that cancer treatment had been started long before the present government started in Saskatchewan, but the fact is that free cancer treatment came into effect after the C.C.F. government was elected and introduced the scheme.
I submit I left no wrong impression, for in my statement I did not mention treatment. I further submit that the hon. member has been unfair to me in so stating, and that by the statement I have just quoted he in turn has given the wrong impression to the house.
In order to set the record straight, and for that purpose alone, may I point out that the Cancer Commission Act of Saskatchewan was passed even earlier than I had stated. It was passed in 1930, when Dr. F. D. Munroe was minister of health in the coalition government of that day. It was a comprehensive measure covering all phases of diagnosis and treatment. It provided for the acquisition of radium, and its control by the commission.
In 1940 this act was placed in the revised statutes, without change. In April 1944 Dr.

Uhrich, the then minister of health in the Liberal government, caused the act to be amended so as to permit of free diagnosis and treatment of all patients.
This act was implemented on May 1, 1944, and free treatment was inaugurated then. Under the C.C.F. government which has been in power recently the act has been amended twice, once in 1946 when it changed the constitution of the commission and its times of meeting, and again in 1949 when the only amendment was a change in the meaning of the word "patient".
I have made these observations only for the purpose of correcting the record.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Dickey) not going to continue the debate? The debate was adjourned the other night, and if he is not prepared to go on and to avail himself of his right to speak, perhaps other members would like to speak.


Mr. Dickey:: I was speaking in the debate the other night, when the house adjourned and I would ask that the matter stand over. I did not expect it to go on this afternoon, and I am not prepared to speak at this time. I ask that it stand.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: Is it
the pleasure of the house to have the matter stand?


Stanley Howard Knowles: No.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Beaudoin):: Stand.


Hon. Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works) moved: that the house go into committee of supply.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. Beaudoin in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

[Stage Direction]
453.	Departmental administration, $836,737.
Mr. Green:: Mr. Chairman, no one expected that the estimates would come up this afternoon. There is always an extended discussion on the item for departmental administration, and therefore I suggest that it be allowed to stand so that we may go on with one of the detailed items.


Lionel Chevrier: I would have no objection to that at all.
Item stands.
454.	Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada-administration, maintenance and operation, $610,880.
Supply-Transport


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has the minister ever given consideration to the fact that there have been a great many deaths at grade crossings? I believe it was one of the Social Credit members who suggested some time ago that freight cars should have yellow stripes painted down their sides so that automobiles approaching railway crossings would be able to see the freight cars parked across the highway. If this were put into effect I would suggest that the new type of fluorescent paint which shows up at night be used. I think that if a strip of that sort was run along the side of freight cars the cost would be quite small and it would be most helpful in saving a great number of lives.


Lionel Chevrier: I have no doubt that the suggestion made by my hon. friend is one which should be given consideration. The board of transport commissioners has a special division which looks after safety regulations and I shall be glad to direct their attention to this suggestion.


Mr. Fulton:: Have any additions been made to the board because of the increased work which will be necessary in connection with the pipe lines?


Lionel Chevrier: Additional clerical and other staff have been appointed, but there has been no increase in the membership of the board and it is not intended to increase it.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to ask a question with regard to two grade crossings on the highway between Winnipeg and Transcona. I realize the minister has a lot on his mind but he may recall that I raised this matter before, both on the floor of the house and by correspondence. At the eastern end of Winnipeg in what is known as Elmwood there are two bad grade crossings, one at the main line of the Canadian Pacific and the other at a branch line, both being on the highway which runs from Winnipeg to Transcona.
While I may not be as familiar with its details as the minister is, I do have a general idea of the formula that governs applications for the elimination of grade crossings. I understand that the municipality or municipalities concerned make application to the board of transport commissioners. If the board thinks that the grade crossing should be removed, either by means of an underpass or in some other way, it so decides and assesses the cost among the municipalities concerned and the railroad. I believe that is substantially correct.
In this case the residents of Elmwood, a community at the eastern end of Winnipeg, are greatly concerned over the existence of these grade crossings. They have taken up the matter with the Winnipeg city council and the council of the town of Transcona.

Supply-Transport
I think the minister will understand what I mean when I say that, while they met with sympathy from the officials of these two bodies, it was a different thing when it came to making an application that might involve the expenditure of money on their part.
I was wondering whether the minister could say anything about these two cases. They are really only one case because the two crossings are not far apart. Is there any other way-other than by applying to the board of transport commissioners-in which grade crossings like these can be eliminated? Is there any possibility that this might be considered a federal project to reduce unemployment when necessary? Any comment by the minister on the subject will be noted with interest by the people of Elmwood.
I stress the fact that this highway runs from Winnipeg to Transcona, a distance of three or four miles. There is considerable traffic back and forth on this highway, all of which has to cross the main line and branch line of the Canadian Pacific. Both crossings are in a residential area. When I spoke about this matter before, this area was not in the constituency of Winnipeg North Centre, but -here was a little redistribution bill a year or two ago which brought it in and I am just as much interested in the matter now as I was then, if not more so.


Lionel Chevrier: The only remarks I could make in connection with the subject matter would be from the standpoint of this department. There is provision in the section of the Railway Act relating to the grade crossing fund to cover cases such as those my hon. friend has referred to. I mean that there is machinery for bringing such a case to the attention of the board. It is then up to the board to decide whether or not the project should be proceeded with.
Before arriving at a decision the board hears evidence, either in Winnipeg or in Ottawa. I assume in a case like this the board would set a date for a hearing. If the board came to the conclusion that it was a project which should be proceeded with they could order that up to 40 per cent of the cost but not exceeding $100,000 should come out of the grade crossing fund and assess the balance, either equally between the municipalities and the railway concerned or proportionately between those different bodies. I am not familiar with the particular case, but I imagine that my estimates will be on some days before they are finished and I shall be glad to get a statement. From what my hon. friend has said I gather that this matter has already been brought to the attention of the board.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I am not sure that it has, particularly if it is necessary that action be taken at the request of the municipalities concerned. What I really want to know is whether there is any other way by which it could be brought to the attention of the board?


Lionel Chevrier: In so far as this department is concerned, there is no other way. It would have to be by way of application, but that application need not be formal. The hon. member referred to the possibility of a provision by way of unemployment assistance, but there is nothing of that sort in my department. I know there was a provision for that prior to the war, but that is a matter concerning departments other than mine.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I appreciate the minister's offer to look into the matter and tell us at a later date if he has any information. This is the Talbot avenue crossing over the Canadian Pacific in Elmwood. As I remember, when the former minister of reconstruction and supply, now the Minister of Trade and Commerce, tabled a white paper in the house in April, 1945, there was some suggestion that the removal of grade crossings would be one project for which the government might get blueprints ready in order to have them on hand for use at a future date. Will the minister look around, both in his own department and anywhere else where they might be found, to see if there are any such plans available for the removal of these two grade crossings?


Lionel Chevrier: The Minister of Reconstruction and Supply did table a document to that effect and the board of transport commissioners were given instructions at one stage to look into projects that would be considered of a priority nature if it should be decided to proceed with such works in the post-war period. The board has done that and has already approved of certain projects across Canada. I cannot give them from memory, but some of them have been proceeded with. Whether or not this particular project is in that list I am not able to say, but I could tell the hon. member at a later date.


Stanley Howard Knowles: If the minister will do so at a later date we can pass the item.


Gordon Graydon: I desire to branch into another field of the minister's jurisdiction, one that is also covered by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada. I want to bring to the attention of the house a matter which goes a little beyond the legal aspects of the question which I desire to discuss. I wish to refer to the public aspects of the whole question because of changed conditions in the areas surrounding metropolitan centres

such as Toronto and other large cities of Canada, and I believe that those changed conditions should have a bearing upon the policy adopted by the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada and the railway companies involved.
I refer to the matter of commutation passenger rates. I know that the question of commutation passenger rates has been a vexed one in many localities. For a number of years in the early part of the century when applications were made for commutation passenger fares they were granted, but in recent times, whether it is because of the policy of the railway companies, the policy of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada, or the policy of the government generally, there has been a definite stoppage so far as any extension of commutation passenger rates is concerned.
At the moment I am not able to tell the minister when the last commutation application was granted, but I do know that it seems almost impossible now to have the commutation area extended. I want to bring one fact to the minister's attention. In the town of Brampton where I live, and which I represent as the member for Peel, we are some 21-3 railway miles from the union station in Toronto. We are unable to get commutation passenger rates. Applications were refused in 1909, in 1910 or 1911, and again in 1920.
I am not in any way attempting to indicate that there is any discrimination between the towns of Oakville and Brampton because I think Oakville is entitled to commutation passenger rates. I think it was a very proper thing that Oakville should have been given them originally, and that it should continue to enjoy them. As far as Oakville is concerned, it is farther away from the Toronto union station than the town of Brampton. I think that has been pointed out on previous occasions but nevertheless, for reasons with which I have never been able to find myself in agreement, Brampton has been denied commutation passenger rates.
Since the previous decisions were made, conditions have changed. I could not agree with the decisions that were made at various times in the past, but now their whole basis ought to be reviewed. No longer is the city of Toronto in the same situation as in 1909, 1910 or 1920, because all areas within a radius of normal commutation rates are at least partially identified with the general metropolitan orbit of which the city is the hub. That condition does not apply only to the city of Toronto. It applies to the city of Montreal and other cities as well. I have no doubt that there are many members from the city of Montreal and its suburbs who are 45781-36
Supp ly-Transport
seeking the same kind of redress that we are for the situation in which we find ourselves, close to the city of Toronto.
We think the whole question ought to be reviewed. We think that the matter of housing and the extension of the urban population into outlying areas ought to be taken into consideration. The merger of police protection and similar services are being considered for some places adjoining Toronto. Movements are now on foot whereby in a sense we are identified with a great metropolitan area. Because of that the cause which was fought so nobly and so well, but in such a futile way, in earlier days, now becomes a cause that ought to be reviewed, and the town of Brampton should be granted commutation passenger rates.
As the minister knows, there was a definite policy which governed the question of how, when and where commutation rates could be granted. I think the whole policy should now be subject to review, because when the previous decisions were made by the board conditions were so very different from what they are now as to almost create a new ease on a new set of circumstances. I am not speaking at the moment for Whitby, Oshawa, and the other places in between those points and the city of Toronto. On the west side of Toronto, however, along the lakeshore route there are commutation passenger rates for all stations between Toronto and Oakville, a distance of 21-4 miles. When you proceed in a more westerly direction from Toronto towards Guelph you find that the commutation rates stop at Weston on the Canadian National, which is only 8-6 miles from the Toronto union station.
That leaves out of consideration a place like Malton which in 1920 was just a village near Toronto. Malton has now become one of the great airports of the continent. It is the home of the A. V. Roe Company, the proud manufacturers of the great jet plane which was demonstrated so successfully yesterday. It has become one of the major manufacturing points in central and western Ontario. It has become a centre of considerable population, but nevertheless because of decisions made in 1920, nearly thirty years ago, and prior to that time, the people of Malton are deprived of commutation passenger fares. Many of the workers at Malton live in the city of Toronto and are using other means of transportation, and in other instances people living at Malton are working in Toronto.
I wish therefore to bring to the minister's attention a situation which I believe calls for a definite remedy. Year by year there has been an increase in passenger traffic as far as Brampton and Malton are concerned. We

Supply-Transport
think that now, beyond any shadow of doubt, we meet the requirements which in previous years the board, the government, and the railways felt that we were not able to meet. So I would like the minister to take into consideration the possibility of lifting the ban, as it were, on the granting of commutation passenger rates from places as close to metropolitan centres as the town of Brampton is to the city of Toronto. In doing that, perhaps he would also turn to a return for which I asked and which will be found in Votes and Proceedings No. 87 of July 24, 1946, on the subject of commutation rates. This will give the minister some idea of the points from which rates are now applicable outside the Toronto area, together with the mileage:
Cedarhurst	 61-9
Clarkson	 16-1
Danforth	
5	3Downsvie w	
8	0Dixie Road	
10-2Lakeview	
11	[DOT] 1Lefroy	
51-8Long Branch	
8-8Lome Park	
15-0Maple Beach	
59-9Mimico	
6-8Oakville	
21'4Oriole	
11-2Parkdale	
2-4Port Bolster	
57.9Port Credit	
12-8Port Union	
16-3Riverdale	
2-2St. Clair Avenue	
5-2Scarboro	
8-9Sunnyside	
3-5Weston	
8-6West Toronto	
5	0
The same thing applies on the Canadian Pacific railway:
Don	 2	0
West Toronto	 4-5
Weston	 8	3
Lambton	   64
Islington	   8-7
Summerville	 10-9
Dixie	 12-6
Cooksville	 14-2
Erindale	 17-3
That leaves out the important and growing community of Streetsville, which is even closer to the union station than the town of Brampton. This will indicate to the minister just where commutation fares are applicable in the Toronto area, and also how necessary it is to have that commutation passenger rate structure broadened at this time, having in mind the changed circumstances, due to housing and other factors, which have brought about conditions that must be taken into consideration in the immediate future.
I intend to bring up this matter again, perhaps at greater length, when the legislation concerning housing is under consideration, because these matters are definitely linked together. But since several govern-
[Mr. Graydon.l
ment departments are co-operating in matters of this kind I thought I should at least bring the point to the notice of the minister, under whose jurisdiction the board of transport commissioners operates, so that we might have a preliminary canter with respect to this question. I want to serve notice upon the minister that we are out to get commutation rates for these points I have mentioned; but I hope he will not feel that in making this statement I am doing more than simply emphasizing what I think is a most important point, that owing to changed circumstances this action has become almost a must as far as the outlying districts are concerned.


Lionel Chevrier: I am glad to hear my hon. friend say that he is out to get commutation rates, and that this matter is a must. For his own sake I hope he gets those rates; but I think he will understand when I say that there is a procedure by means of which commutation rates may be obtained. The hon. member commenced his remarks by saying there was a serious situation in his community which called for a remedy. I am not familiar with the circumstances except as I have heard my hon. friend outline them, but in what he has said he has brought forcibly to the attention of parliament a situation which should be given careful consideration.
There is machinery which can be used to try to bring about the remedy my hon. friend refers to, but that machinery is not within the Department of Transport nor is it within the government itself. The Railway Act clearly sets forth that a body has been set up for the purpose of establishing rates. I refer to the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada. As long as I have been in the department the government certainly has not indicated by direction to that board that they should do thus and so. They are considered to be a court of record, and it is they who decide, on application by the railway association of Canada or any other body, whether or not such rates should apply. If the facts are as suggested by my hon. friend, and I have no doubt they are, does he not think the proper procedure would be to acquaint the board with the situation in the area surrounding the city of Toronto? If it is a fact that the decisions complained of were based on facts twenty or thirty years old, then I am sure the board of transport commissioners would be prepared to give consideration to new circumstances and a new set of facts and, if there is need, alter the decision in the manner required.
I shall be glad, if I can, to facilitate the application to the board on behalf of the people in whom my hon. friend is interested, but I want to assure him at once that the

government does not fix rates and has no intention of doing so. I think it would be a serious mistake if the government were to intervene in rate-fixing problems. That has been considered a matter for the board, and I am sure if my hon. friend and the municipalities bring these matters to the attention of the board, either by a formal application or by a simple letter, they will receive attention.


Gordon Graydon: I thank the minister for his very co-operative reply. The machinery involved, to which he referred, of course is well understood. I am only anxious to have him pour some lubricant on the machinery, and that was my purpose in raising the question this afternoon. We are taking the necessary steps as far as that machinery is concerned, but we need a little oil to make it run more smoothly.


Gordon Francis Higgins: I would like to direct the minister's attention to the question of the railway in Newfoundland. As he knows, that railway now is being operated by the Canadian National Railways. Paragraph (xiv) of the statements on questions raised by the Newfoundland delegation reads:
After the date of union, the Canadian National Railways will be entrusted with the responsibility of operating the Newfoundland railway and coastal steamship services, and it will be their responsibility to see that services are furnished commensurate with the traffic offering.
In my opinion the services being furnished are not commensurate with the traffic offered. Would the minister make a statement as to whether it is the intention of the government to introduce a standard broad-gauge railway?


Lionel Chevrier: I wonder if the hon. gentleman would raise that question when we are on the proper item. We are now dealing with item 454 concerning the board of transport commissioners. They have no jurisdiction over the particular matter to which my hon. friend refers.


Gordon Francis Higgins: May I take it we shall have a statement of that kind?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes; there will be ample opportunity for discussing the matter which has been raised.


Gordon Francis Higgins: When will that be?


Lionel Chevrier: I will inform the hon. member at the proper time.


Mr. Church:: I wish to ask the minister a question on item 454. I call his attention to one fact, that the board of transport commissioners has a duty to the public to perform. Since there are some new members present, perhaps I should inform them that the board, under section 275 of the old act, of its own volition, is required to investigate 45781-36J
Supply-Transport
certain matters. An able man from the mari-times, the Hon. Mr. Justice Archibald, has recently been appointed chairman of that board. I point this out to the minister because he is a young man whom I have always appreciated.


Lionel Chevrier: Thank you.


Thomas Langton Church: Never mind, that is irrelevant.


Lionel Chevrier: I should like to tell the hon. gentleman that I have much respect for him as well.


Thomas Langton Church: I want to point out that this board of transport commissioners has certain duties to perform for the public. I am asking about a steam suburban service for the Toronto district. This board is required, of its own volition, to investigate that problem for the city of Toronto. I believe it is the only large city on the North American continent that has not a steam suburban service and the only one that qualifies for it. I do not blame the present minister because it goes farther back than that.
Those members who have recently entered this house from the Toronto district know that because of the lack of that service there is not a piece of cheap land in that city. During the last session the former member for Davenport referred to the fact that, at one time, during the first war, land was sold for $6 per foot on St. Clair avenue. There were 28 war widows on Boone avenue in one block after the first world war. I happened to be the member for that district for three parliaments. Some time later, it was discerned that the lack of a suburban service in the Toronto district was deplorable. As I was pointing out yesterday, I hope the time is not too far distant when something will be done about it.
Speaking of the board of railway commissioners, what are their functions? They have a large staff of engineers and are required to ascertain whether Montreal is the only city entitled to this service. I contend there is a clause in the act which calls for equality of treatment and equality of rates and tolls imposed by that board as between two districts. If one section of the country receives a service, that service, tolls, rates and equipment must be given to other parts of the country. The hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Rooney) knows a great deal about our city and about this matter. At the present time, there is no cheap land in the city. The days of $6 per foot have passed. The city of Toronto is the only city in Canada that can qualify for a similar service on the same basis as Montreal.

Supply-Transport
I remember when my friend, the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon), was requesting commutation tickets for Brampton and Oakville. The hon. member for Peel knows, too, that there is no cheap land in the city. I am just pointing out that the act specifically says it is the function and duty of the board of transport commissioners, of its own volition, to look into this question and find out whether or not Toronto can qualify for steam suburban service on the same basis as Montreal. I am glad to see Montreal has that service. The only regret is that the board of transport commissioners should be required to carry out the law, and where similar facts exist, similar service should be granted.


Gordon Graydon: Following up what the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) has said, may I ask the minister if there is a difference between the surburban service of Montreal and that which is given to the Toronto area?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, there is.


Gordon Graydon: What is the distinction? I have just been relying on what the member has said, but I should like to know what the distinction is between the two cities.


Lionel Chevrier: There is such a service between the city of Montreal and the outlying districts and I understand there is not in Toronto.


Gordon Graydon: That is a steam suburban service?


Lionel Chevrier: On that point, there is a suburban service. Dealing with the point raised by my hon. friend, I have to make the same answer as I made to a question a short time ago; that is a matter for the board to decide upon an application to them. The question is: Is that what the hon. gentleman wants, a steam suburban service for the city of Toronto? If it is, I shall be the most astonished man in the world, because the railways have been trying in the last few years to get away from steam locomotives. The hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson) has on the order paper a bill the purpose of which is to eliminate smoke. He wants the railways to install certain equipment in roundhouses in the city of Toronto to eliminate smoke. We have that request from one gentleman and a request for a Steam suburban service from another gentleman.


Gordon Graydon: I want cheap rates.


Lionel Chevrier: If it is cheap rates, that is clearly a matter for the board.. If it is a steam suburban service, I think, before one could answer yes to that, more careful consideration would have to be given. I know
(Mr. Church.]
the railways are modernizing their equipment and eliminating steam locomotives.


Clayton Wesley Hodgson: They are getting diesels?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, diesels. The Canadian Pacific Railway Company announced a policy some time ago to the effect that no more steam locomotives would be purchased. They are directing their attention exclusively towards diesels. I believe I am safe in saying that is substantially the policy of the Canadian National Railways.
Coming back to the question of rates, if that is the question that is being brought to the attention of the house, J must say it is a matter for the board to decide upon application to it.


Howard Charles Green: As the committee knows, the board of transport commissioners recently handed down a decision on the application of the railways for an increase of twenty per cent and also on a rehearing of the former application. The general result of the decision was an increase in rates of 29 per cent. In giving judgment, the board stated that was only a temporary increase, and that they would give further consideration to the application of the railways for a 20 per cent increase after the two inquiries which are being undertaken have been completed.
As we all know, there is a royal commission on transportation which has been sitting for some months. In addition, the board of transport commissioners was ordered to make a general inquiry into the whole freight rate structure, and particularly into the question of discrimination. Can the minister tell us when those two inquiries are to be completed? It would appear that the board's inquiry has not yet got under way. The result is that it will probably be some time before they make a finding. This is particularly important to the western provinces and to the eastern provinces because, with the recent increase in rates, the discrimination was made just that much worse than it had been before. Apparently there can be no remedy for the discrimination until these two reports are in.


Lionel Chevrier: It is of course rather difficult to tell the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra the exact time at which these two investigations will be completed. The royal commission has had sittings in western Canada, has gone down to Newfoundland and is now on its way back; in fact, it is back. When it will move to the other provinces, if it so decides, I am not in a position to say. I hardly think they will have completed the hearings before the month of December, and it will be some

time after that before they are able to compile the tremendous amount of evidence before them and bring down their conclusions. Whether it would be a year from now or not, I am not in a position to say. If I had had the opportunity of consulting with the chairman, I might be able to give the hon. member some idea with regard to the time; but it will certainly not be in the immediate future.
Dealing with order in council P.C. 1487, on the general equalization of freight rates-


Howard Charles Green: The minister is now dealing with the inquiry to be undertaken by the board of transport commissioners as distinguished from that undertaken by the royal commission?


Lionel Chevrier: I am dealing with P.C. 1487 which authorized the board of transport commissioners to set up an inquiry to deal with the general matter of the equalization of freight rates. That has been under way now for almost a year, and at the moment the board is going into the study of the waybill, which is an important factor in arriving at the matter of discrimination. It will be some months still-in fact, I think it will go into next year-before they are able to conclude their findings on the waybill study. As to when they will bring in their report, I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend any definite date, except to say that it will not be soon.


Howard Charles Green: Will public hearings be held by the board of transport commissioners in carrying out this general inquiry, or is that merely a study being undertaken by them?


Lionel Chevrier: Yes, it is a study being undertaken by the board.


Howard Charles Green: Last spring we understood that the board would be holding public hearings having to do with this question of discrimination. Surely, on an important matter like that, they are not going to make their findings without giving the provinces an opportunity to make representations.


Lionel Chevrier: That is a matter which the chairman, in conjunction with the other members of the board, will have to decide. I do not know what he intends to do. He is the court and he is the one who must decide whether hearings will be held across the country or not. I cannot speak for him at this time without consultation with him. The waybill subject matter is one of study; it is not one which would call for a public hearing. The matter of the mountain differential was one which did, and hearings were held. I think that is a matter for the discretion of the chairman.
Supply-Transport


Howard Charles Green: As I understood it, the provinces were asking for an opportunity to make representations on this whole question of discrimination. The board of transport commissioners has wide power under the order in council. When that order in council was passed, was it not the intention of the government that the board should hold public hearings?


Lionel Chevrier: The board has already held one public hearing. Having decided to remove the mountain differential in the British Columbia area, they then thought the next procedure was to make a study of the waybill. Having done that, what they intend to do afterwards is something I am not able to say. As to the intention of the government,
I have made statements from time to time, and the order in council is there. I do not think I should elaborate further.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps the minister could tell the committee at a later date what plan the board have in mind.


Lionel Chevrier: Yes. I shall be glad to consult with the chairman of the board and at a later date to make a statement as to his intention.


Howard Charles Green: This is an exceedingly important matter.


Lionel Chevrier: Unquestionably it is an exceedingly important matter.


Howard Charles Green: I would ask that the minister allow the item to stand.


Lionel Chevrier: Surely we can discuss this matter on the general item.


Howard Charles Green: No-


Lionel Chevrier: Just a minute. If it is the-intention of the committee to let every item such as this stand, we shall never get on. At my hon. friend's request we have let item 453 stand, so that we could discuss general matters. I tell my friend now that he will have an opportunity to deal with this matter under item 453. I should think that would be sufficient.


Howard Charles Green: I have run into difficulties before over some plan of this kind. It is now six o'clock. This information for which I have asked the minister is most important, and I would suggest that the item be allowed to stand.
Item stands.


Joseph-Alfred Dion: It being six o'clock, shall I report progress and ask leave to sit again?
Progress reported.

Business of the House BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow is private members' day.


Gordon Graydon: In view of our experience today, I should like to ask the minister this question. If tomorrow we find that private members' notices of motions stand in such numbers and as frequently as they did this afternoon, what will the government business be following disposal of them?


Stanley Howard Knowles: Public bills and orders come first.


Alphonse Fournier: We have some bills under study in committee which we could take up, or we could revert to estimates of the Department of Agriculture or of the Department of Transport.


Gordon Graydon: Would the business of
tomorrow include the bill to amend the Supreme Court Act?


Alphonse Fournier: Probably; and the bill to amend the Exchequer Court Act and the one to amend the Department of Justice Act.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, October 6, 1949