1949-10-19

Hon. Hugues Lapointe (Solicitor General):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a copy of the letter of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) to the Attorney General of Saskatchewan in answer to the latter's request for an investigation into the prices of crude oil and gas, requested yesterday by the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue).



ORDERS IN COUNCIL


[Stage Direction]
1948, to June 30, 1949
Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to an undertaking given at the last session of parliament at the request of the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), I wish to table a summary of orders in council for the period October 1, 1948 to June 30, 1949. These orders total 11,461, of which 6,589 are treasury b'.'ard minutes. The summary runs to 423 pages, and, as can be appreciated, its compilation has taken a considerable amount of the time of the staff of the privy council office.
The hon. member asked that in tabling the summary it be indicated opposite each of the orders which ones had been tabled or gazetted and which ones had not. This has been done. The government is naturally anxious to meet the wishes of the hon. member and of the house, but it has occurred to us that the information which the hon. member is really seeking has reference to orders in council that are not treasury board minutes, because treasury board minutes are purely administrative in character.
When the undertaking was given, I had not appreciated the amount of work involved; but, having given the undertaking, I felt it should be carried out in the exact terms in which it was given. It would greatly expedite the work of providing this information in future if it were understood that the summary would refer only to orders other than treasury board minutes, and that it would not be necessary to indicate whether the orders have been tabled or gazetted. In this
way I think the house would have the information in which it is interested, and the summary could be prepared and tabled much more expeditiously and would be more useful to members of the house.
I might add that I have looked up what the hon. member for Danforth (Mr. Harris) said on this subject on April 25, 1949, and the proposal I have made would appear to meet his wishes and facilitate the bringing down of these summaries in a much shorter time after the passing of the orders. If it is satisfactory to the house to have that done the next summaries will be so prepared. If, after the summaries have been tabled, hon. members feel that they are not getting sufficient information, the matter can be brought up again. "We wish to provide hon. members with any information they may regard as helpful to them in considering the matters with which they are concerned.


Mr. Diefenbaker:: What the Prime Minister has said as to the course that he has in mind entirely covers the situation so far as I am concerned. I do not think anyone has any interest in the treasury board minutes. The purpose is to have a summary of the orders in council tabled.



SUGGESTION AS TO COMMITTEE ON MINISTERIAL POWERS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
John George Diefenbaker: I wish to bring to the attention of the Prime Minister a suggestion I made on September 22 last in reference to the setting up in this house of a committee on ministerial powers. The Prime Minister, in tabling the summaries of orders in council, has gone a long way toward meeting the desires of parliament, and it is in that spirit that I now ask him whether, having regard to the trend, which I mentioned on that occasion, toward delegated authority, consideration might be given to the setting up of such a committee as I have suggested.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: The hon. member was kind enough to let me know in advance that he intended to refer to the suggestion he made in his speech on the address on September 22, and it has been given some consideration. I do not think the government would be prepared to recommend the setting up of such a committee at the present session of parliament, but I do feel that the suggestion has merit.

Committee on Ministerial Powers The hon. member pointed out that such a committee had been set up in the parliament at Westminster. All I would care to say at this time is that between now and next session the government is prepared to give careful consideration to the operation of that committee in the House of Commons of the United Kingdom, and, in the light of its operation and of such other considerations as may seem relevant, to indicate at an early stage in the session of 1950 whether we would be prepared to support the establishment of a similar committee in Canada.


John George Diefenbaker: I thank the Prime
Minister.


Mr. Church:: How many of these orders in council ever reached the Supreme Court of Canada, may I ask?


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: To answer that question might require a further considerable amount of work in the privy council office. Having tabled the summary of the orders, I think I will have to leave it to the hon. member himself to see them and select those he thinks have reached or should reach the Supreme Court of Canada.


Thomas Langton Church: A return to the house indicated that there were 160,000 orders, and only two ever reached the Supreme Court of Canada.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. Diefenbaker:: 1.	How many orders in council have been issued or passed since March 1, 1949?
2.	Of these, how many have been (a) published in the Canada Gazette; (b) tabled in the house?


Mr. St. Laurent:: 1.	Between March 1, 1949, and October 18, 1949, inclusive, there were passed 9,802 orders in council, of which 5,519 were minutes of the treasury board.
2.	Of these, (a) 264 have been published in the Canada Gazette; (b) 79 have been tabled in the house.


INCOME TAX AND SUCCESSION DUTIES-PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
Mr. Gagnon:: What was the amount paid to the federal government by (a) individuals; (b) companies, corporations, partnerships, etc., of the province of Quebec, in (1) income taxes; (2) succession duties, during the last fiscal year?


Mr. McCann:: Collections by the taxation division in the province of Quebec for the fiscal year 1948-49 were as follows: Individual income tax, $200,834,119; Corporation income

and excess profits tax, $149,611,161; Succession duties, $5,405,580; Other collections, $17,663,335; Total collections in fiscal year, 1948-49, $373,514,195.


GANDER AIRPORT
Mr. Higgins:: 1.	What are the landing fees at Gander airport. Newfoundland?
2.	Have the landing fees been changed since March 31, 1949?
3.	Are such fees to be increased?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1. Transatlantic flights: When all-up weight does not exceed 5,000 pounds, the landing fee is $7.50 and $1.50 for each additional 1,000 pounds thereafter, up to and including 10,999 pounds.
When all-up weight does not exceed 11,000 pounds, the landing fee is $18.75 and $3.75 for each additional 1,000 pounds thereafter, up to and including 24,999 pounds.
When all-up weight does not exceed 25,000 pounds, the landing fee is $60 and $7.50 for each additional 1,000 pounds thereafter, up to and including 109,999 pounds.
When all-up weight does not exceed 110,000 pounds, the landing fee is $150 and $15 for each additional 10,000 pounds thereafter.
Domestic flights: For scheduled and non-scheduled commercially registered aircraft, commercially registered aircraft engaged on test (newly constructed aircraft undergoing initial flight tests shall be deemed to come within this category), survey, ferry or other noncommercial flights, and visiting aircraft privately registered with licensed gross takeoff weights over 5,000 pounds, the landing fee shall be computed according to the table given below, the rates being applied to the whole of the licensed gross take-off weight, including fractions of 1,000 pounds, if any. The fee shall be computed to the nearest five cents.
Up to but not over 15,000 lbs., licensed gross take-off weight 10c per 1,000 lbs.
Over 15,000 lbs. and not over 30,000 lbs., licensed gross take-off weight 124c per 1,000 lbs.
Over 30,000 lbs. and not over 45,000 lbs., licensed gross take-off weight 15c per 1,000 lbs.
Over 45,000 lbs. and not over 75,000 lbs., licensed gross take-off weight 20c per 1,000 lbs.
Over 75,000 lbs., licensed gross take-off weight 25c per 1,000 lbs.
Flying clubs:	For aircraft owned and
operated by an approved Canadian flying club based at the airport, the rates shall be thirty cents per hour flown by club aircraft; provided, however, that, in the case of a continuous flight in excess of two hours' duration

when the aircraft is in charge of a licensed pilot not under instruction, no charge shall be made unless the aircraft weighs 5,000 lbs. or more.
Commercial flying schools: For aircraft owned and operated by a commercial flying school based at the airport, the rates shall be thirty cents per hour flown by school aircraft.
Private aircraft: For privately registered aircraft based at the airport, with licensed gross take-off weight over 5,000 pounds, the rates shall be one-half of the rates shown in paragraph one above.
Air line training schools: For aircraft belonging to a bona fide training school of a licensed air line and engaged in the training of aircrew personnel of the air line, the landing fees shall be the subject of negotiation between the air line and the Department of Transport.
Exemptions: There shall be exempt from landing fees:
(1)	State aircraft as defined in air regulations, part 1, section 2, except such aircraft as are employed in commercial air services.
(2)	Noncommercial aircraft of foreign governments.
(3)	Visiting aircraft owned and operated by flying clubs.
(4)	Visiting aircraft, not over 5,000 pounds licensed gross take-off weight, owned and operated by commercial flying schools.
(5)	Privately registered aircraft not over 5,000 pounds licensed gross take-off weight.
(6)	Aircraft in distress executing forced or precautionary landings.
(7)	Such other aircraft as the minister may direct.
2.	Yes, domestic flights.
3.	Landing fees at departmental airports are continuously under review.


EMPLOYMENT OF PERSONS OVER FORTY YEARS OF AGE
Mr. Knowles:: 1.	Has the government received representations asking that inquiry be made into ways and means of preventing and combating discrimination against persons over 40 years of age when seeking employment?
2.	If so, has consideration been given to such representations, and is anything being done about the matter at the present time?


Mr. Mitchell:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes. The situation is summarized hereunder:
The Department of Labour has had this problem under study since late in world war II, at which time it was anticipated that in the transition from war to peace older workers might be faced with discrimination. In the post-war years the Department of 45781-59
Questions
Labour and the national employment service, aided by local, regional, and national employment advisory committees, have kept in close touch with the problem.
Instructions contained in employment circular No. 172 of July 18, 1949, reads in part as follows:
7. Officers doing employer relations work should at all times endeavour to impress upon employers that there are applicants for employment in the older-age group who are well qualified to perform various tasks. They should endeavour to see that age limits are omitted wherever possible and that older-aged workers are considered for employment if they are really capable of such employment. When an older worker appears to be the best qualified for an employer's order, except that he is older than the stipulated age, the officer should diplomatically approach the employer concerned with a view to arranging an interview for the applicant. The whole approach should be that older-aged workers will only be referred when they can perform the particular task as well as, if not better than, the younger workers. It should be emphasized that older workers have mature skills, experience and stability. The program must be an educational one, based on the fact that where older workers can be used they should be used, and not based on an appeal to the sympathy of the employer.
Publicity is carried out by means of newspaper releases, special articles, radio talks, films and personal contacts with employers. In this publicity an attempt is being made to impress employers, not only as to the economic necessity of providing employment to a group which constitutes approximately one-third of our total working population, but also as to the advantages to be gained by the full use of the experience and skills of the worker past forty.
Co-operation is maintained by the Department of Labour with the Department of Veterans Affairs in a campaign for the employment of older veterans. This co-operation extends to the corps of commissionaires. Recruiting for the corps is done to a large extent by the national employment service.
The problem is kept under consideration by the national advisory committee and regional and local committees of the unemployment insurance commission, and a subcommittee on the older worker problem has been established for the sole purpose of ascertaining the best methods of dealing with the situation. Meetings with businessmen in various cities have been held with a view to widening co-operation.
In December, 1947, a counselling service for applicants for employment over forty-five years of age was set up in Toronto by the national employment service on an experimental basis. From this experiment much valuable information has been made available for counselling at other local offices.
An important factor in the program has been the efforts of officers in local employment offices. These officials, fully aware of

Accidental Deaths
the situation, are, in then day-to-day contacts, placing older workers wherever possible. Their contacts with employers prove a means of acquainting industrialists with the seriousness of the problem.


FEDERAL TAXES
Paul-Edmond Gagnon: What was the amount of taxes received hy the federal government from individuals, companies, corporations, partnerships, etc., of the province of Quebec, during each of the years from 1939 to 1948?


James Joseph McCann: Total collections of taxation division in the province of Quebec, by fiscal years, were as follows:
1939		$ 39,073,779
1940		 38,660,072
1941		 77,768,432
1942		 200,522,959
1943		 434,742,868
1944		 492,710,468
1945		 442,982,576
1946	  414,059,164
1947		 412,119,383
1948		 383,967,886


ROYAL COMMISSION ON COAL
Mr. Hodgson:: What action has the government taken in connection with the recommendation of the royal commission appointed to investigate the Canadian coal industry (Carroll) relating to mechanization of the Nova Scotia coal industry?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: Consideration is being given to legislation relating to the subject matter of this question.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
NAVAL PERSONNEL
Mr. Wright:: 1.	Were any naval personnel transferred from the Canadian joint training centre station at Rivers, Manitoba, to Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, at any time since August 1, 1949? If so, on what date or dates and how many were involved in such transfer?
2.	Were any naval personnel transferred from Dartmouth to Rivers subsequent to the transfer east noted above? If so, on what date or dates and how many were involved in such transfer?
3.	Were any of the personnel transferred east, as noted above, the same personnel as those transferred west, as noted above? If so, how many were thus transferred both ways?


Mr. Blanchette:: Return tabled.


ACCIDENTAL DEATHS
Thomas Langton Church: That, in the opinion of this house, in view of the deplorable loss of life in Canada from accidents on the highways and at level crossings, drownings,
TMr. Mitchell.!
fires and other causes, the government should seek the co-operation of the provinces, municipalities and organizations throughout Canada in acquainting our people with this appalling toll and seek to find means of curtailing same.


Mr. Speaker:: It occurs to me that this motion does not merely express an abstract opinion, and that its adoption would necessarily involve the expenditure of money. A few days ago-see Hansard of this session, page 578-I gave a ruling on a similar motion by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), and I believe this motion would be out of order on the same grounds as the one moved previously. Accordingly I must rule the motion out of order.


Thomas Langton Church: I rise to a point of order. I call attention to the fact that this motion involves no expenditure of money whatever, it simply calls for expression of opinion on the part of this house. It does not deal with the same subject matter as the bill I introduced some weeks ago. With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, I fail to see why the motion is not in order. As I say, there is no expenditure of money involved. It is simply an effort to help the unfortunate people who may be involved in these accidents. It will not cost the country one dollar to have this motion discussed in the house.


Mr. Speaker:: I would not contradict the statement of the hon. member that it will not cost anything to discuss the motion here, but if it were carried, the government would be bound to comply with its terms, and it would therefore be in the nature of a direct order. It would necessarily involve an expenditure of money, and for that reason I must rule the motion out of order.


Thomas Langton Church: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I appeal from your ruling.
Mr. Speaker put the question as follows:
The hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church), seconded by the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks), moved a resolution standing under notice of motion No. 9, which reads as follows:
That, In the opinion of this house, in view of the deplorable loss of life in Canada from accidents on the highways and at level crossings, drownings, fires and other causes, the government should seek the co-operation of the provinces, municipalities and organizations throughout Canada in acquainting our people with this appalling toll and seek to find means of curtailing same.
I ruled that in my view this resolution does not express an abstract opinion. I further ruled that if it carried the government would be bound to comply with its terms, and therefore it is in the nature of a direct order, which order could not be carried out without the expenditure of public money. On these grounds I ruled the motion out

of order. From this ruling the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) and others have appealed.


Mr. Johnston:: I was paired with the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Cleaver), Mr. Speaker. Had I voted, I would have voted against your ruling.



EDUCATION


Mr. R. R. Knight (Saskatoon) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration means of expanding and equalizing educational opportunity across Canada, by the granting of financial assistance to the various provinces for that purpose.


Mr. Smith (Calgary West):: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that this motion is out of order for the identical reason that you gave in respect to the motion of the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church).


Mr. Knowles:: Mr. Speaker, with reference to the point of order raised by the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Smith), before you give a decision, may I point out that there is a striking difference between the resolution that was just ruled out of order and the one now moved by the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight). The difference is that the motion now before the house asks that the government take a certain matter into consideration. In his motion the hon. member for Broadview did not ask that something be taken into consideration. He said that such-and-such should be done.
Furthermore, may I draw your attention, sir, to the fact that on May 1, 1946, a motion

Education
similar to the one which has now been moved was presented to this house by the then member for Dauphin, Mr. Zaplitny. It appears on page 1090 of Hansard for May 1, 1946. I ask hon. members to notice how similar it is to the one that is now being moved. It reads as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration ways and means of equalizing educational opportunity across this dominion and granting financial assistance to the various provinces for this purpose.
That motion was accepted as being in order and it was debated on that occasion, namely, on May 1, 1946. I submit that this established a precedent which makes this motion also in order.


Mr. Speaker:: The hon. member for Calgary West has raised a point of order as to whether the motion moved by the hon. member for Saskatoon is in order. The hon. member for Calgary West says that it is out of order for the same reason that I ruled the motion of the hon. member for Broadview out of order. It seems to me that there is a difference in these two motions. The motion that I ruled out of order, if carried, would be a direct order from this house which the government of necessity would be required to put into effect, and would require the expenditure of money. The motion now moved by the hon. member for Saskatoon, if carried, would not be a direct order from this house which the government would be required to put into effect. It would merely require the government to take the matter under consideration. I think there is a difference, and I must rule that the motion of the hon. member for Saskatoon is in order.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I shall begin by thanking you, Mr. Speaker, for your ruling in regard to this motion.
I may say at the outset, sir, that I did not think it was within the realm of possibility that I should be called upon to debate this motion today, because it was preceded by the motions of many other hon. members. But it is a subject about which I know something, and I do not have to make too much reference to notes. In addition I happen to have in my desk some data which I can use in connection with the subject. Furthermore, it is a subject which in my opinion is of such vital importance that I cannot ignore the opportunity to say what I have to say about it, in case that opportunity should not again present itself this session.
I do not think, sir, that I need spend too much time in this enlightened body in discussing the need for education. Interesting debates have taken place lately in this house, one of them upon certain undesirable influences for which education was
advanced as a possible remedy. Education is now fundamental to our civilization, as we know it; it is fundamental to the preservation of our democratic system, and perhaps to our very existence. Certainly it is necessary for national prosperity in these days when other countries, as well as our own, are becoming enlightened through education. It is one of the vital needs for national unity, for national security and indeed, as I have said before, for our very existence.
Advanced countries have reached the conclusion that education is the birthright of every child. There is, however, a divergence of opinion as to just how much of the education of a child should be at the expense of the community. There are other tendencies which might be noted, the first being the tendency to increased expenditures in almost every civilized country for educational purposes. There is a tendency toward raising the level of the age at which the child may leave school, and a tendency to give the same opportunity to every child in the matter of education, irrespective of that child's race or creed, the financial circumstances of his parents, or, for that matter, his geographical position.
What I hope to say today is predicated upon the principle of social justice that every child should have as his birthright in Canada a measure of education. This, as it were, puts a floor under a child's training, a certain minimum to which every child should be entitled, .by law. One must admit that there is inequality in this regard. One finds a wide divergence in educational opportunity as one travels across Canada. I shall not weary the house by placing on record many statistics; the matter has been debated before in the house and it is one with which I believe most hon. members are familiar.
A bulletin issued in 1945 by the dominion bureau of statistics shows some startling inequalities as between province and province and as between rural and urban municipalities. There are inequalities even as between district and district of the same type, some of which I shall choose at random. Perhaps a fair measuring stick would be the amount of salary received by teachers in these respective communities. We find that in 1945 teachers in Prince Edward Island received an average salary of $633, whereas teachers in British Columbia received $1,552, about two and one-half times as much. Surely there should not be this great discrepancy. In 1943 the average salary of city teachers in Canada was $1,784, while that of rural teachers was $852, or in the proportion of about two to one. I believe conditions in the maritimes in this regard are worse than in other parts of this country. Dr. Argue's

report shows that while one province was spending $31 per child for educational purposes, another was spending $83. At the same time, of the teachers employed in these provinces, in one instance only two per cent had university degrees as against 31 per cent in the other instance.
Speaking in another debate, but in respect of a related subject, I said that in a time of war education is the first casualty. Let me prove that statement by pointing out that in 1945 there were 4,550 people teaching-and I do not call them teachers, because they did not hold teaching qualifications. They did their work by virtue of a temporary certificate, following the issue of what is known as a permit.
I am reviewing this subject from the point of view of social justice rather than from that of the teacher. I have in mind the interests of the children concerned-the children who will one day become the men and women who may have to shoulder the responsibility of running the affairs of this nation. I would urge therefore that this be not considered as a political matter; and in this I am hoping to have the support of the new members who have come to the House of Commons from Saskatchewan, a province which is well enlightened in this regard.
Let us look at Canada from the point of view of the inequality which exists in connection with the educational careers of children. We are told that thousands do not complete their public school training, and more thousands do not finish their high school grades. The number who attain university degrees is small indeed. One learns from the census that 668,000 people over five years of age are totally illiterate. In 1941, the last year for which I have the figures, only 85,000 living citizens had university degrees, while at the other end of the scale there were 360,000 people between the ages of six and sixteen-and this will be recognized as about the public school age-who were not at school at all. What freedom, what opportunity are those people to have in this land where we boast of our freedom and of our opportunity?


Mr. Goode:: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I would ask the hon. member to wait until I have finished.
Canada is the only part of the British commonwealth in which the central treasury does not provide to the extent of at least fifty per cent for the education of the children. Universities are passing through critical times. They are trying to adjust themselves after the work of the last few years when great numbers of veteran students passed
Education
through their halls. I believe the universities should be given some assistance. In passing may I say that the educational aid given to veterans by the federal government proved to be eminently successful, and upon this I should like to congratulate the government.
I have here an article from the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix which, under the heading of "Federal Aid", states:
One lesson which can be drawn from the record of achievement of D.V.A. reviewed on this page recently is the possibility of federal aid to education. One hundred and thirty thousand veterans have received technical and university training. The training of these men and women to take their places as successful citizens is a sound investment for our country. The experience of D.V.A. could now be drawn on to develop a permanent plan whereby all our young people could be given educational opportunities in keeping with their natural ability and ambition.
Endorsation of this proposal comes from all parts of Canada, and I am glad to say it is in increasing and not decreasing volume. Almost all public bodies that have sufficient connection with education to make a study of it have the same opinion. Here is a Canadian Press dispatch, dated the 14th of October at Winnipeg, giving the view of the Canadian Legion. It reads:
Winnipeg, Oct. 14.-A plea for federal aid for education from elementary school to university level was made Thursday by the Canadian Legion. In a brief to the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences the Legion urged adoption of a plan patterned after the federal public health scheme now in effect. "If it can be done for public health there is no reason why it can't work with education," said Lieutenant-Colonel Wilfrid Bovey, of Montreal, honorary counsellor of education for the Legion, in presenting the brief.
May I point out to hon. members that the Legion represent a great and important body of public opinion in Canada. I am glad that they have gone on record in endorsation of the resolution which I have now presented to the house.
As to the way in which federal aid might be extended, I might read some of the details set out in the article. It continues:
The Legion endorsed fully earlier submissions made by the national council of Canadian universities, and Major General E. L. M. Burns, assistant deputy minister of the Department of Veterans Affairs, at the commission's Ottawa sittings in August. The universities then outlined their critical need for funds and recommended direct government grants and establishment of government scholarships and fellowships in all faculties. Major General Burns' brief urged the setting up of a government scheme of university scholarships, which eventually would grant scholarships in all faculties to 1,000 young Canadians a year.
In dealing with the opinions of public bodies, I need hardly mention the opinion of the Canadian Teachers Federation, because it has been quoted often in the house and elsewhere, and is well known. As to whether

Education
or not the teachers federation is representative, let me say that there are about 60,000 members of the organization scattered throughout the country. Hon. members from Newfoundland can tell you that there are 2,200 teachers in that province, about half of whom are now voluntary members of the Canadian organization, and at the moment they are negotiating a professional act by which they will become statutory members of the Canadian Teachers Federation. This particular body, of course, has presented briefs upon occasion to the federal government. I believe the last one was in February, 1949; it contained a resolution passed at their Ottawa convention. I should like to quote a few words from the resolution. It was resolved-
-that each provincial teachers' organization be requested to discuss federal aid with its minister of education, and that every effort he made to gain the support of the provincial governments in the appeal to the federal government for financial assistance for provincially controlled education.
There is little to say so far as teachers are concerned, because for years they have been strongly of this opinion.
I should now like to refer to what I might call lay bodies which are interested in education. The first one about which I have a note is the Canadian Education Association, with which there used to be embodied the Newfoundland Education Association. It is a lay body interested in education. It met in Fredericton, New Brunswick, from the 12th to the 15th of September, 1949, and heard prominent educationists express views as to federal aid. One of them, a man who is becoming nationally known in matters of education, was Dr. Althouse, president of the Canadian Education Association. Another one was Dr. A. W. Trueman, president of the university of New Brunswick. I should like to read the following extract from a news letter of the Canadian Teachers Federation:
Dr. A. W. Trueman, president of the university of New Brunswick, speaking to the C.E.A. convention stated that in his opinion equality of educational opportunity in all the provinces cannot be secured without considerable federal aid.
I shall not read the rest of the paragraph. That is the gist of the matter. Speaking of federal aid, Dr. Althouse, president of the Canadian Education Association, in his address to the Canadian Teachers Federation convention, used the expression, "straws in a wind of increasing volume and velocity". He used those words in regard to the fact that federal funds have been available in the realm of higher education for bursaries and scholarships to encourage and to maintain research.

I have suggested that the resolution should be a non-political matter, and a matter with which lay bodies in Canada should be concerned. Then there is the Canadian School Trustees Association. I suppose a good many of us have been trustees of either little rural schools or town schools. Trustees are men from all walks of life, men of all political opinions, men of all creeds. They are not grinding an axe for the teaching profession. They are interested solely in one thing, the welfare of the children of Canada, and, through them, the welfare of the nation. I should like to read a resolution passed by the Canadian School Trustees Association which held its convention in Fredericton from September 10 to September 12, 1949. May I mention in passing that I am proud that a lady from my own city, Mrs. W. Walker, of Saskatoon, presided over their proceedings. The resolution is interesting; it reads as follows:
Whereas various educational bodies in all provinces are concerned with the present inequality of educational opportunity throughout the nation, and whereas present sources of finances are insufficient:
Therefore be it resolved that we ask the federal government to give grants in aid in order that the provinces may be able to provide equality of educational opportunity.
I believe that members of all political parties are interested in this matter. I have another quotation that I should like to read. It is taken from an address made in the house by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) on September 19, and reads:
Now that the matter of Canada's right to amend her constitution has arisen, and we believe that the constitutional rights and privileges of the provinces must be recognized and protected-
Perhaps I am answering the question my hon. friend wished to ask.
-we believe that ways and means must be found by agreement to assist the provinces in improving other public facilities, particularly those having to do with education. A modern system of education involves large expenditures in plant and equipment, but of the most vital importance is the type of person engaged in the teaching profession. As I have good reason to know, unfortunately many of our most able, most gifted and best fitted young men and women either leave the profession or do not enter it because of the lack of opportunities and remuneration it offers. The limited financial resources of some of the provinces, and the communities comprising them, simply cannot cope with this situation. In the discussions with the provinces I should hope that some consideration would be given to the problem of providing federal aid for education in all its branches, without restricting the rights of the provinces in that regard.
I think I have shown without fear of contradiction that a great body of public opinion across this country is in favour of that which I am advocating here today; but

something must be done to educate a small and, I think, decreasing minority who have set themselves against federal aid in this connection, largely because of a lack of understanding. It is unfortunate that it should be always easy in this house to befog an appeal to reason by an appeal to emotion; and I have discovered that there is no more successful method of befogging an issue than to bring in something in regard to the autonomy of the provinces. Apparently in this country there is a minority who cannot discuss that question without letting past history enter into the argument. Somehow there seems to be a great fear and a great lack of trust on the part of one group with respect to another group. If we are ever to be a nation, if we are ever to have this national unity that we are forever talking about, we must learn to trust our people. Every time this matter has been brought up in the house some well-intentioned but misinformed hon. member has always regarded it as a deep, dark conspiracy by means of which someone, presumably the federal government, is somehow seeking to get control of the educational policy of a province or some provinces. Nothing could be further from my own intentions as sponsor of this resolution. The idea is simply that we would like a floor placed under education; that we want the federal government to guarantee to every child born in Canada, of whatever race, nationality or religion, a certain minimum education.
There is only one control that would be necessary by the federal government, as far as I can see, in granting-and note the words that follow-assistance to the provinces to get on with their own type of education. That control would be to see that money voted for the purpose of education was spent for that purpose and not used for the construction of roads or something of that kind. I want to direct the attention of hon. members to an address delivered by Mr. P. J. Kennedy on Education and Catholic Leadership, a copy of which came to my desk just recently. I wish hon. members would read this with some care. It is printed and distributed by Ottawa council 485 of the Knights of Columbus, educational committee, and presumably the address was delivered to that organization. Here is what Mr. Kennedy had to say; it is not very different from what I have said, except that perhaps he was more eloquent:
I purpose to devote the major part of my remarks to the question of federal aid to education. In so doing I am not unmindful of the substantial contributions now made by the provinces and the municipalities and especially of the increased assistance given by our own department of education in recent years. Nevertheless, as a Canadian it is my duty to look upon education from the national point of
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view. Consequently, I favour federal aid to education as the best, if not the only means of effectively eliminating the glaring inequalities in educational opportunity which now exist among the provinces.
I am convinced that unless such aid is given tens of thousands of children in Canada will continue to be denied that level of educational opportunity which is demanded for the development of their potentialities and for the progress of the nation. In addition,
I accept the view that the federal government has power under the constitution to make grants for general education in the same way as it has been making them during recent decades for vocational and other types of education.
Before I broke off my general remarks to read that quotation I was referring to the arguments which no doubt will be advanced again, as they have been advanced before, against my suggestion to the effect that somehow or other the acceptance of money from the federal government would involve some interference in the policy and the content of provincial education. The gentlemen who advance that argument are the same gentlemen who had their hands out during the distribution of federal funds under what is generally called the family allowance. After all, is that not a form of federal aid to education? Is not that money supposed to be used for the good of the children in the family? Any parents who have the good of their children at heart certainly will see that education is not the sphere in which those children are deficient.
I have mentioned that one grant. What about the other grants that have been made by the federal government over the course of the years to aid education? There was an act in 1919 granting federal aid to technical education. Has that interfered with provincial autonomy? Has that interfered with the rights of anyone in regard to religion, language or anything else? What about the Vocational Education Act of 1931, under which there was a grant of $750,000 a year for fifteen years to be allotted among the provinces on the basis of population? Has that interfered in any way with provincial rights? What about the Youth Training Act of 1939 and the Vocational Training Co-ordination Act of 1942? Last but not least, what about the great scheme under the Department of Veterans Affairs, which has contributed so enormously to the general enlightenment of the people of this country?
Those are just some of the items. In its brief presented to the federal government in February, 1949, the teachers' federation goes into that argument. Let us see what they have to say on the matter. There are one or two pages of it from which I should like to make brief quotations:
Federal aid for education is a need born of a shift in taxation. Meeting this need may involve fiscal control safeguards in the spending of funds from the federal treasury-but not policy control.

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In other words, there would be no interference with the curriculum, but merely a means of ensuring that those funds, if turned over to the provinces for the purpose of education, would be used solely for that purpose. The brief continues:
In any plan of federal assistance, it would be understood and agreed that the expenditure of funds by the government of Canada would in no way be deemed to confer upon any minister or official of the government of Canada any right of supervision or control-
That seems to be definite enough.
-over any school or educational institution with respect to which any federal government funds are expended.
X believe that is equally clear.
I continue to quote from the brief:
The Canadian Teachers' Federation has never deviated from its stand that complete control of administration, supervision, teaching personnel, the curricula, methods and material of instruction, must remain with the provinces.
Why any educational authorities in any province should be so zealous in refusing money by which they could promote and encourage their own particular educational programs, I fail to understand. I can only put it down to a lack of understanding of this matter on their part.
I would urge once again that the government of this country see to it that this country does not lag behind the other civilized countries of the world in this particular matter. I believe, sir, I shall leave it at that.


Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinlon):: Mr. Speaker, the resolution under debate provides that-
-in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration means of expanding and equalizing educational opportunity across Canada, by the granting of financial assistance to the various provinces for that purpose.
I regard this as a subject of very great importance. So that I may be careful to avoid all possible pitfalls or any possible misunderstanding as to the extent to which I do advocate federal assistance in the field of education, I wish to make it abundantly clear in everything I have to say that I believe that the autonomy of the provinces in respect to education must be scrupulously observed. Great harm will be done, even approaching this subject with good intentions, unless we put beyond the realm of argument or contest the complete autonomy of the provinces and their exclusive control over the subject of education as applied to the content, curriculum and structure of the educational system.
Section 93 of the British North America Act leaves no room for doubt upon this subject. In part, it provides that:
IMr. Knight.]
In and for each province the legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to education, subject and according to the following provisions:-
The following provisions, Mr. Speaker, concern the things put beyond the reach of the provinces, such as certain of the guarantees given to separate and religious schools prior to confederation. Subject to that well-established exception, the provinces have been given complete and exclusive jurisdiction over education by the British North America Act.
Now, sir, the motion puts emphasis upon the necessity for equalizing opportunity. I am in complete agreement with that aim. I could not be more wholly in agreement with any subject than with the desirability of equalizing opportunity in Canada for all Canadian children-in this case just as far as education can effect that worthy purpose. I approach this subject with due regard to the great importance of education in Canada. One of the factors which has been of the greatest assistance to Canadians in making the great strides which Canada has made in the world in the past several generations has been the high quality and standard of Canadian education. I do not think, sir, that any Canadian needs to have anything but a feeling of intense pride as he surveys the quality and standard of education in this country.
Every one of us is a debtor to the educational system of his province. I am sure everyone in this house would be only too happy to recognize the value that educational opportunity has played in his life. At the same time, sir, everyone knows quite well from his own experience that there have been others, with talents which could have been developed with the assistance of higher education, who have not enjoyed the full opportunity of developing their talents because they were denied the opportunity of pursuing their education. I believe most of us can look back in our experience and recall many bright youths or young women who have been denied the opportunity to develop their talents fully because, for some reason or other-usually a lack of means-they were unable to carry their educational courses into the fields of higher education.
It is unfortunate that education is costly. Education is becoming increasingly costly, and that is one of the factors with which we must reckon. On the one hand, the provinces enjoy exclusive jurisdiction over education and, at the same time, bear exclusive responsibility for education. On the other hand, they have been ground between the upper and nether stones, with limited sources of revenue out of which to meet this heavy

responsibility they are called upon to bear under our constitutional division of jurisdictional powers as between dominion and provincial spheres. As a matter of fact, education has become so costly in recent years that it may fairly be said that it has been going through something of a crisis.
I see this problem expressed in two forms; one in terms of inequality of educational opportunity as between Canadians in different provinces and the other in terms of the inequalities of opportunity as between individuals. Obviously, there is a limit to the extent to which the dominion may properly participate in meeting the cost of education. I affirm, sir, however, that there is no doubt that for some time there has been a general need throughout Canada for greatly increased participation by the dominion government in meeting the burden of the still rising cost of education in Canada. For dominion assistance in this field there is already abundant precedent and, I think in all cases, wholesome precedent. I shall mention some of these just briefly.
In the first place, in the field of technical education in times past, not always consistently throughout the years, but at least for the past generation, in most years there have been federal grants to assist technical education in the provinces.
In the second place, a beneficial and far-reaching dominion-provincial youth training plan has been carried out as a joint enterprise between the provinces on the one hand and the dominion on the other, operating through the Department of Labour. Since 1937 literally hundreds of thousands of young Canadians have enjoyed the benefit of training through the assistance of that co-operative plan.
In the third place, one thinks of course of the outstanding success that has been achieved in the training of veterans since the war as a result of this co-operation between the dominion government and the provincial departments of education. I consider it a triumph of co-operation. It shows what can be accomplished in this country when the governments in the two spheres, dominion and provincial, meet a problem in a spirit of co-operation. The number of veterans assisted through this beneficial plan is 130,000.
In the fourth place, in order to emphasize the fact that too narrow a view of education should not be taken, I cite the dominion assistance to another scheme carried out in co-operation with the provinces under the provisions of the National Physical Fitness Act.
As a fifth example, I mention a useful means by which the dominion has given 45781-60
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assistance, through the Department of National Health and Welfare, to our schools of social work in Canada. These grants, distributed throughout the various schools of social work operating in conjunction with universities right across Canada for several years past, have been most helpful. The contributions have been timely. When the estimates of the Department of National Health and Welfare are under consideration in this house at a later date this session, I hope that hon. members generally will not only commend the provision made for assisting schools of social work but will also urge an increase in those grants. Increased assistance is greatly needed by the schools of social work attached to the various Canadian universities.
There is another project which I am satisfied will be a precedent-it should have been a precedent before this-and that is the establishment of a national library.
Mention has already been made, and I do not need to retrace the ground covered by the hon. member who introduced this resolution, of the study given to this problem by teachers and by the various organizations representing school trustees and boards of education.
Some will say that such bodies approach a problem of this kind with a certain interest. I do not think their representations, which have been frequent, should receive any the less consideration on that account. After all, teachers and those who are daily coping with the problems of meeting the cost of education are entitled to be heard on a subject of this kind. It is an incontestable fact, Mr. Speaker, that as between the various provinces of this confederation, the educational opportunities are not equal. The provisions made for school teachers' salaries in the various provinces are sorely lacking in equality. There are places in Canada where the school teachers are carrying on with simply miserable pittances. I speak with some feeling on this subject. My father was a school teacher and I know something of the problems in connection with school teachers' salaries. They have been notoriously low in this country from the beginning. At the same time I concede that noteworthy advances have been made, particularly in some provinces, in more recent times.
I should like to say to this house that my leader, in the five and a half years during which he was premier of the province of Ontario, at the same time held the important portfolio of education; and in the period of his administration of the Department of Education more was done to advance the educational system of the province of Ontario and more was done to raise the level of

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school teachers' salaries to a more reasonable height than had been done in the previous seventy-five years. I think that is a record upon which all the people of Ontario, regardless of party, will always commend my leader.
There cannot be any question about the power of the dominion to make contributions. The present Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton), in a public debate on this subject in Montreal in 1945, held under the auspices of an educational association, used these words:
But the constitution does not prevent the federal government from giving substantial assistance to education. Direct assistance might be given in different ways.
Having regard to the needs prevailing in Canada, Mr. Speaker, I think the time has come when steps must be taken to give effect to the fact stated in that passage by the present Minister of National Defence.
Assistance should be given through the provinces. That is necessary and is urgently required. At the same time I hope that through the form of scholarships it may be possible to extend greatly assistance to worthy students in pursuing their education into higher fields, students who have proven their merit and their willingness to work but who, by reason of lack of means, do not have available to them today the opportunity of pursuing their educational careers.
About a year and a half ago I had the privilege of sitting in the gallery of the United States senate and listening to a debate on this very question. A bill introduced by Senator Taft was before the senate at that time; under it federal funds were proposed for the assistance of educational opportunity. A small minority who were in opposition of course raised the cry: Oh, but you are going to interfere with the exclusive jurisdiction of the states over education. But that view did not prevail. In the opinion of the majority of the United States senate, it was a view without foundation. If I thought for one minute, Mr. Speaker, that federal grants through the provinces, under agreements entered into with them, would be, or would be suspected to be, any interference with the autonomy of the provinces in the matter of the content of education, I would not be speaking as I am today in support of this proposal. But I believe that federal grants can be made available without interfering with the autonomy of the provinces, provided that this matter is pursued through agreement between the dominion and the provinces. This is one more reason why a general dominion-provincial conference ought to be reconvened at the earliest opportunity. Here is a need existing in Canada today, a pressing need, a need which I submit to you, 
sir, the dominion, with its ample sources of revenue and its ample budget surpluses in these days, dare not ignore, a need that can be met if the dominion will seek to provide financial assistance without interference with the autonomy of the provinces.
Sir, it is for these reasons that the party of which I am proud to be a member has pressed insistently for the reconvening of the dominion-provincial conference in order that agreement may be reached on this subject as upon other subjects of urgent importance, and that fruitful co-operation between the dominion and the provinces may result in great benefit to many Canadians. That is why also the party of which I am proud to be a member has advocated federal grants on the basis of fiscal need for the assistance of the provinces in relation to such provincial matters as education, health and welfare.
(Translation):


Mr. Pierre Gauthier (Portneuf):: Education
Keep our young people on the farm, how to interest them more and more in matters pertaining to rural life.
I will now quote words which were spoken in the Quebec legislature and in my presence by a former provincial secretary, the Hon. Athanase David:
"Too often, when giving an example in arithmetic, we mention city buildings having ten, fifteen or twenty storeys, and so many rooms per storey. How many rooms in the building? Instead we should give our children an example of a fruit tree bearing apples, the very sight of which makes the mouth water, and say:	'There are so many branches on
this tree, so many apples on each branch. How many apples are there on the whole tree'?"
The attention of our young men has not been sufficiently drawn to rural problems. We have not directed our youth towards rural life, nor have we shaped its mentality accordingly.
You, Mr. Speaker, and a number of others who are listening to me now and who, born in the country, now live in cities, know that rural life is not without charm; however, you also know why so many young men wish to come to the cities.
In any case, we are not discussing farm desertion but education, and I believe that if the provincial government would but accept the physical fitness act, we could cooperate with that government and make adequate grants, but especially more of them.
If my recollection is good, the federal quota fixed by the council established under the physical fitness act is $120,000 a year. Let Quebec province match this amount and the total would reach $240,000 per annum. In ten years, the sum thus paid out would run up to a fairly large figure and could be spread throughout the province. Subsequently an understanding could be reached leaving the administration of these grants to the provincial government so as not to infringe upon provincial autonomy.
These two grants, put together, would enable us to set up these recreational and educational centres which would go a long way towards attracting and holding our young people on the farm.
Therefore I believe that the Quebec government should reconsider its refusal to apply that act. Something must be wrong, because all the other provinces have put it into operation.
When I listen to our hon. friends to the left speaking on this famous question of provincial autonomy, I am led to believe that the representatives of the province of Ontario
[Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf) .1
are as much in favour of autonomy as the representatives of the province of Quebec. I notice the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Balcer) smiling his approval. Since the province of Ontario has accepted, provincial autonomy is therefore not in jeopardy because of this act. So I have no doubt that my hon. friend and colleague, the member for Three Rivers, will want this act to be accepted by the province of Quebec, so that we may receive some of those substantial grants.
I have no doubt that, being convinced beforehand as he is, he would be a most efficient spokesman in an interview with the prime minister of the province of Quebec. I personally would hesitate to make such a request, as I have had occasion to feel that I did not have the necessary political complexion to achieve success, and I would confidently entrust such steps to the hon. member for Three Rivers.
However it may be, I am sure that if the prime minister of the province of Quebec, or rather his government, would reconsider their decision, we could obtain those grants.
I believe that discussions like the one prompted by the motion introduced by the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight), even though we are wont to call them academic or full-dress debates, are absolutely necessary. It is worthwhile to have such discussions from time to time. It allows us to burrow more fully into big books which would otherwise remain unopened. They are such good friends, and I believe they have a right to complain that our attention is rather directed somewhere else. I congratulate the hon. member for Saskatoon for having brought up this discussion.
You know, Mr. Speaker, there is no minister of education in my province, to look after these matters. We have a provincial secretary, and he is the one entrusted with the task of upholding in the legislature all bills on education.
There is however a superintendent of education who takes instructions from the council of education, which, I feel, is a very good way to manage education in my province. I am not in favour of a department of education, as I would like the administration of education to remain as it is at present. I have confidence in the council of education, in the superintendent of education and in the provincial secretary, and I know the government, generally, wishes to adopt the legislation I mentioned a few moments ago.

During the course of five years, if I may say so, we have lost a considerable amount in grants which we could have used to build educational and recreational centres.
I am not at all convinced, Mr. Speaker, that the government of my province would have recognized and accepted the necessity of co-operating in the implementation of the act.
The hon. member for Saskatoon, I believe, stated that there is no danger of encroaching upon the rights or autonomy of the provinces, because after the war the dominion government inaugurated what is known as vocational training. I do not believe that the same principle applies as far as the army regulations implemented by the Department of Veterans Affairs are concerned. One cannot assert that there is no danger of encroaching upon provincial rights, since the federal government has already made grants for vocational training following the war. That assistance arose from the need of training men who had volunteered for service overseas and risked their lives, especially those who attended seminaries, classical and commercial colleges or universities. In all fairness to those who had spent five years of their lives overseas in the fighting forces, it was imperative to find a way of helping them carry on with their classical and business studies or with their special training. Since this was an emergency, I do not think that we infringed upon the rights of the provinces. If, however, provincial autonomy is encroached upon in this instance, I believe that agreement could be reached after consultation with the only province that has not approved the legislation mentioned earlier, just as we came to an understanding in matters such as old age pensions.
This is not the first time that a member has, in this house, urged federal grants for the education of our young people. During the dominion and provincial election campaign, every candidate spoke about a specific piece of legislation.
Many have stated that the law had really been drafted by the provincial government. Others, not quite so bold, did so in quieter tones. There is no better set-up than that of family allowances and it is the government which I support which gave us that act.
The Family Allowances Act was approved without any encroachment upon provincial
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rights. Passed by the Liberal government of Canada, it is of great help in the education of our children. If I remember rightly, and if my understanding of the act is fairly correct, children who receive family allowance benefits must attend school until they are sixteen. This proves that in addition to giving mothers the means to clothe their children and to give them, when they often go barefoot in the snow, unmindful of the danger of respiratory diseases, the necessary medicine and medical care, the government has provided mothers with better means to buy those things which are necessary for their children.
This legislation will also help mothers to send children to school, when they reach the age of five or six. At this early age, they already attend the rural school or, in the city, kindergarten. Family allowances help the mothers to provide better clothing for their children; their little darlings are just as well dressed as the rest of the small fry. They will take legitimate motherly pride in the fact that their children are as well dressed as their little friends. In their hearts they will thank the government that so kindly thought of helping them to keep their children in school until the age of sixteen, and to provide them with educational opportunities which will fit them for further study in business and classical colleges, if they so desire, where they will be trained to become professional or business men and even, as everyone has the right to hope, representatives in the House of Commons.
That is why we are now discussing this motion which deals with the education of our children. As my hon. friend from Gaspe (Mr. Langlois) points out to me, we now have a foundation; we have a plan called the youth training program, which is implemented through the co-operation of the dominion and provincial governments. That program has been accepted by my province, which has received the grants given for the building of commercial and technical schools. That evidences a desirable and beneficial co-operation between the provincial and dominion governments, in the best interests of the people.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak at greater length, but I feel that others intend to speak. However, I would again ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) to grant tax exemptions to those who have

Education
children in secondary schools or in universities. I am not unaware, though, that this request has also been made by the hon. member for Montmagny-L'Islet (Mr. Lesage), as also by every member in the house.
It is not perhaps entirely up to the children to continue their studies, but I understand that some find it possible, whenever the opportunity arises, to earn a few dollars during their holidays. Because tuition fees are high, in many cases the father's income does not allow him to provide for a son or daughter in high school or college. The father is sometimes not in a position to see his child through.
So, if he were permitted to deduct a certain amount and thus to enjoy an exemption, I believe that would be, on the part of the dominion government, another step, on top of many others already taken in the interests of our young people's education. I hope my appeal will be heard this time. Nevertheless I do hope the Minister of Finance will kindly grant a more substantial exemption to heads of families, so that they may give their children a university education.
(Text):


Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):: I wish to deal with some points that have been raised in connection with this motion, and also with the purpose of the motion itself, which seeks to place before the government for consideration recommendations which I personally have had occasion to make, both in my official capacity while minister of education, and publicly since that time in the position I now hold.
There can be no doubt about the fact that the ability of provincial governments to finance education in a way that will give real equality of opportunity to children growing up in their own provinces is one of the most important considerations of our combined system of government within the Canadian federation. I have advocated that for some time; I advocate it now. This resolution, however, only deals with part of a much broader problem though, even so, I intend to support the motion. I would point out that the amount required by any province to give adequate educational opportunities within that province under its own educational system can be determined only when it is also known what actually is the over-all financial position of the province. For that reason I have stressed, both in this chamber and elsewhere, the urgent necessity of calling

a dominion-provincial conference to consider the whole relationship between the dominion and provincial governments so the financial requirements of the provincial governments for all purposes may be fully considered and the amount required to provide adequate educational opportunities may therefore be determined with some knowledge of what is required by each province for that particular purpose.
The hon. member for Portneuf (Mr. Gauthier) has spoken of the necessity and desirability of co-operation between the dominion and provincial governments. He mentioned one particular and very limited subject which has been considered by the departments of education of the various provinces, a relatively small item in comparison with the general over-all problem; but he has not mentioned certain of the much wider subjects already being dealt with by agreement between the dominion government and the province of Quebec, as well as the province of Ontario and the other provinces of Canada. Mention was made by the mover of this resolution of the remarkable results obtained in the education of veterans following the last war, and in the rehabilitation instruction that was given under agreement between the dominion and provincial governments. Scores of thousands of young men and women received a remarkable education under new plans of education which in themselves have been extremely helpful to the departments of all provinces, because new methods were used which have produced very satisfactory results. In those cases plans were worked out satisfactorily and in complete harmony between the dominion and provincial governments. Very considerable sums of money were spent by the provincial departments of education, which were received from the dominion government under agreements which left the whole setting up and administration of the educational system entirely under the direction of the provincial departments once the general plan had been settled. That worked out extremely well. Certain aspects of that program are still being carried forward; and if evidence were required of the possibility of effective co-operation between the dominion and provincial governments-all provincial governments-it can be found in the success of that plan. Nor is that the only case

in which there has been effective co-operation of this kind. In certain apprenticeship training and similar matters there has been extremely good co-operation, and this has been going on for many years.
I would point out that the important consideration is that the assistance given from the dominion treasury should not be used as an indirect control over the educational systems within the provinces. I mention this only because the point has been raised by the member for Portneuf (Mr. Gauthier). I can speak only for the Department of Education of the province of Ontario, but the reason that department did not accept the relatively small amount offered by the dominion government for a physical fitness program for some time was that there was a direct attempt to exercise control over that program in the schools of the province. Again being in a position to speak with regard to this matter only for the province of Ontario, because of my official contact with the problem, I may say that the Ontario government did avail itself of this relatively small amount when the attempt to exercise that control was discontinued. I can say most definitely from my own experience that the fact the attempt was made in this case to exercise control by an indirect method is an indication that, in providing for grants of this kind, there must be a definite understanding that the independence and discretion of the provincial departments of education will be retained, no matter what the amount of the grants may be.
Just to keep this in proportion, in view of the fact that it has been placed on the record, I should like to point out that the physical fitness grant which was offered by the dominion government to the province of Ontario while I was minister of education amounted to $74,000 a year. The Department of Education of that province is spending several million dollars a year on its physical fitness program.


Pierre Gauthier: I never denied
that.


George Alexander Drew: I am not suggesting the hon. member for Portneuf did. I am only pointing out that the amount is not one which bears very much relationship to the over-all problem. The Department of Education for the province of Ontario is spending approximately $50 million a year on education so that, while $74,000 is an important amount of money, it
Education
is a comparatively small amount in relation to the total sum which is being spent by that province. The grants, which are on a basis proportionate to the other provinces, would bear a corresponding relationship to the general problem of education.
I mention that, not because I have any thought that the hon. member for Portneuf attempted in any way to misinterpret the situation, but because on certain occasions elsewhere there have been attempts to magnify this subject. Attempts have been made to create the impression that certain facilities were being denied because of the lack of co-operation. I say that not one single thing that could be done about physical education or community centres was withheld because that $74,000 was not available. The only reason that particular amount was not received at that time was that there were strings attached to it which would have given an indirect measure of control over certain matters that were the responsibility of the provincial Department of Education. I am very pleased to say that the restriction was removed, and because it was removed that amount is now being received.
May I also point out that the cost of education has mounted enormously during the past few years. Speaking from my personal experience in connection with education, and just to indicate the extent to which those costs have been increased, I should like to recall that, in the case of Ontario for example, the year before I assumed the office of minister of education the total contributed to school boards from the provincial treasury was $7,830,000. The amount now contributed is in excess of $35 million a year. This illustrates the growth of the expenditure on education within a comparatively few years.


Mr. Fauieux:: This amount which the hon. member has mentioned is not solely for physical fitness?


George Alexander Drew: Oh, no.


Gaspard Fauteux: It is for general educational purposes?


George Alexander Drew: While there are adequate physical fitness programs, I have departed from that subject. I am not suggesting for one moment that $35 million per year is being granted for physical fitness. What I said was that the year before I had responsibility for education in the province the grant to

Education
school boards amounted to $7,830,000, and to indicate how educational costs have grown I said the grants for that purpose are now around $35 million. The over-all budget in that one province approximates $50 million. The increase in cost has been general throughout Canada. For that very reason the provinces must have added sources of revenue to maintain education and to give the opportunities that are becoming increasingly available through the advances that have taken place.
The mover of this resolution has referred to the work of the Canadian Educational Association and to the emphasis of that association on the need for greater financial support of education throughout Canada. The Canadian Education Association affords an excellent example of the way that matters of common concern to the provinces can be advanced by the co-operation of the different provinces. The experience of each province is pooled to the common advantage of every province in Canada. This education association is a semi-official body. The Department of Education of every province is represented and, almost invariably, the senior officials of the association are members of the various departments of education or leading educationists. This association does not attempt to lay down a uniform pattern for the whole of Canada, but the officials of the different provincial departments meet and explain what is being done by the various provincial departments to advance education in the provinces. Out of that exchange of experience, there has been a tremendous advance in educational standards throughout Canada and a general improvement in understanding how to deal with the problems of education.
One of the reasons that education is costing a great deal more money than it did a few years ago, and that it is bound to demand increasing expenditure, is the very real effort that is being made to raise the salaries of the teachers and to provide modern facilities for education in the most remote areas of the country as well as in the urban centres. In the past few years a great advance has been made in the type of schools that are being built. Not only are the modern schools using the advances made in construction, new methods of lighting and heating, and improved design, but they are also being built in order to make full use of the increased facilities for transportation which make it possible for

schools to accommodate the pupils of much larger areas. In that way it is possible to bring into single schools, even in remote rural areas, a number of teachers who can have the advantage of their combined efforts. There is also the advantage of making it possible for teachers to specialize in different subjects and exchange information in the different classrooms.
There is, however, this important consideration which cannot be emphasized too often. Even if we built in Canada the finest schools that have ever been constructed anywhere, we would have done nothing to advance our educational standards unless those who are teaching in those schools are highly qualified to teach the children that come under their direction. For that reason, wherever the school may be and whatever type of school may be under consideration, the effort of all those concerned with the advancement of education in Canada should be to raise to a level that is in keeping with their responsibility the salaries of those to whom we are entrusting to a considerable extent the whole future of Canada.
This may be an obvious statement, but it is one which should be repeated over and over again. The standards of our national life in the years ahead will depend to a considerable degree not only upon the technical and academic standards of our education but more than on anything else upon the ethical standards of our education and the character that is implanted in our youth by the education that is given in our schools.
I am not forgetting for a moment that education does not begin in the schools. It starts in the home, at the mother's knee. Then the next stage of education is in the churches where it carries on. The broader phases of education are the responsibility of the schools of all types in every part of the country. The character and the spirit of our youth, the confidence of our youth in their own future, will depend upon the character of our teachers and also in great measure upon the spirit of the teachers and the feeling on their part that the value and importance of their work is being recognized by those who employ them.
One of the most remarkable things about the advancement of this country of ours is the unselfish spirit of service and sacrifice that has inspired our teachers at times when many of them must have felt the importance of their work not being fully recognized by those who engaged them. There have been improvements, however; in many places there have been great improvements. But having regard to the place that the education in our schools will take in the building of

our nation, I think it can properly be said that next to the church itself there is no higher calling to which men and women can devote their brains and their service than that of teaching the youth who will guide the destiny of Canada tomorrow and in the years ahead. In approaching this subject, therefore, and in considering the importance of giving to it the attention that it deserves, emphasis must be placed not only upon the necessity of meeting the physical and structural requirements of education but also upon the necessity of advancing the opportunities of the teachers themselves, of not only raising their salaries to levels that are in keeping with their responsibilities, but of also opening to our teachers even wider opportunities of continuing education in their own chosen profession.
There is great need for educational opportunities for teachers themselves, because education is advancing all the time in the facilities that are available and in the way in which it can be imparted to the children. Just in these last few years great strides have been taken in the use of moving pictures in the schools. This is a field in which an agency of the dominion government, the national film board, can be of great assistance, because there are almost infinite opportunities for advancing the education of our children in many lines through the impact of the visible impression upon their minds. Whether it be in such subjects as history, biology, or the practical subjects such as physics and chemistry, or whether it be in the cultural subjects such as music and art, the possibilities of the film are almost limitless. There is a field in which an agency of the dominion government can co-operate effectively in the work that is being done. But in mentioning that, it also needs to be emphasized as well that to give these facilities to all the schools a very considerable expense must be incurred in providing the equipment that will translate those films into actual educational opportunity in the schools themselves.
Then, also, great advances have been made in the opportunity for education by the radio. At the present time most, if not all, of the departments of education in Canada are making use of the radio within their own provinces for the purposes of carrying education into the classroom. There is another mechanical device which is not being used to the extent that it could be, but which is extremely useful, namely, the sound record. Now, with the development of modern records that will play for fifty minutes, whole courses of instruction can be given on particular subjects, and through this device the most highly trained educational experts available in the whole country can, with
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their own voices, give instructions in the subject in which they are so highly qualified, and in that way the most remote classroom, whether it be in the Arctic or in the remote northern coast lines on the Atlantic or on the Pacific, can have the advantage of personal contact with the greatest brains in this country, in a way that never before was regarded as possible.
These things are only the beginning. Perhaps at the moment television may be regarded as highly experimental, but past experience with new devices teaches us that this also will experience great advances in the years ahead. Each of these things, as it comes along, provides new opportunities to bring to our children the best training, the best standards of skill, the best qualifications, right into the classroom. It is no longer necessary for a single teacher, teaching all the classes in a single classroom, to try to teach the children to sing when that teacher was never gifted with a talent of song. Now, by bringing into the classroom by radio, by record or by the film, instruction in music, the greatest voices in the world can impress upon the children the quality of music and what it means to their own satisfaction.
The same is true of the things that are taking place from day to day. They can actually hear history as it is being made, and the great speeches at momentous times in the world's history can now be carried into the classrooms at the very moment they are being made, instead of being brought at some distant day in the form of the written word to leave its first impression upon the child's mind.
I have taken the time to review these things only to impress the fact that, along with these vastly increasing opportunities, will come vastly increased expenditures on the part of every school board in every part of Canada. For that very reason I believe it is important that the provincial departments of education be assured of that measure of financial support which is necessary to bring to reality the desire that I am sure is shared by every hon. member, that real equality of opportunity in education shall be extended to all Canadians, no matter where they live or what the material circumstances of their parents may be.
There is no single thing upon which money can be better spent than upon this great subject of education. There is another aspect. We are being called upon to provide increasing sums of money not so much for the health of our people as for their sickness and, in many cases, to deal with permanent and irreparable damage to the human system. The old Latin maxim mens sana in corpore sano is one which also carries the reverse

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connotation; because while it is true that we usually find a healthy mind in a healthy body, we shall also be most likely to find a healthy body where a well-trained mind has given to the individual that measure of self-discipline that, having regard to the physical ability of any individual, will make it possible for him best to meet not only the general test of life, but the physical test as well. Many of the crippling accidents that are limiting and impairing the whole future of so many of our children today would never happen if our education were on a level where the self-respect, the self-discipline, the ethical standards of our youth imparted by education provided the greatest possible safeguard against some of these misfortunes.
At a time when we are seeing millions upon millions being spent for those whose minds are gone beyond repair, and when we see millions upon millions being spent upon those who are incurably disabled as a result of personal weaknesses, and accidents which were themselves the result of failure to apprehend obvious dangers, and at a time when we see the increasing burdens of sicknesses that could have been avoided-that is the time for us to recognize that education is not something only to teach people how to make a living and how to enjoy living; rather it is also something to equip people to meet the physical as well as the other tests of life.
Therefore while this resolution covers only part of the problem, I do believe it is one which merits the wholehearted support of every member in the house. Before closing these remarks however I would emphasize that it is essential that there be an examination of the whole field of dominion-provincial relations, so that the provincial requirements in respect of health, education, and all these other responsibilities, considered to be provincial responsibilities under our constitution, may be fully examined, and that we shall not deal with these things piecemeal but that we may place the provinces in a position of being able to meet the demands properly made upon them by the people who have chosen the provincial governments as their servants.
In any event it will be helpful to have emphasized the need for support in educational matters; and if this debate serves no other purpose at the moment, I hope it will help to emphasize that there is a high degree of unanimity within the House of Commons as to the desirability of assuring to every child in Canada, wherever they may live, or under whatever conditions, whether they have parents capable of taking care of them, or whether unhappily they may be orphaned and dependent upon others, that to the limit of our power we shall make the words 
"equality of opportunity" a reality, so that in the years ahead we may build a nation based upon character and upon educational understanding of the great opportunity it is to be a Canadian and to live in this land of ours.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, it would be impossible for me during the two or three minutes remaining before six o'clock to attempt to deal at all adequately with the resolution before the house. I am sure all hon. members have welcomed this opportunity of focusing their attention upon this assertion, one which certainly appeals to each and every one of us, that there should be across Canada the greatest possible degree of equality of opportunity for the education of our young Canadians, the Canadians of the next generation.
Whether or not the granting of financial assistance by the federal government to the various provinces could be arranged in such a manner as to avoid exercising any direct or indirect control over the field of education, which is essentially within provincial jurisdiction, is a question offering greater possibilities of controversy.
There is no doubt that every one of us, as a Canadian citizen, is vitally concerned with the necessity of there being maintained in this country adequate educational facilities to produce the kind of citizens who may be able to make the best possible use of the bountiful resources with which Providence has blessed our great country. And there can be no doubt that, since the cessation of hostilities, the program devised to provide educational facilities for veterans of war has been of great assistance in the maintenance of the efficiency of our educational institutions. I think many of us feel that, without the assistance it was possible to provide during that period, many of our institutions would have found it very difficult indeed to maintain their activities to the high degree which is so satisfactory to the Canadian public.
Personally I have no doubt that it will be necessary to find some way in which these institutions can continue to be supplied with that which is necessary to them to maintain that high standard in their educational activities. The leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) referred in a most interesting manner to some of the facilities which modern developments in science and equipment make available now to promote education in our institutions of learning. Some of them are activities in which the federal government is engaged.

Hon. members know that, at the present time, there is a royal commission investigating the problem as to whether or not we are making the best possible use of the public moneys being expended for the promotion of the development of the aspect of national life in Canada which is not measured in statistical trade returns, or in dollars and cents, or pounds and shillings. Though the reference calls upon that body to confine its recommendations to matters which are within federal jurisdiction, it will be impossible for them to formulate such recommendations without looking at the whole picture throughout the Canadian nation, and without seeing the other activities under provincial jurisdiction which contribute to the same development. It will certainly be a matter of months before we can obtain a report from that commission, and I should think it would be wise not to attempt to determine with any degree of precision how the purposes can best be served until we have had that report.
It may be that there are other hon. members who would wish to participate in the discussion of this problem, and perhaps at this time the most convenient thing to do would be to adjourn the debate.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No. On a point of order, would the Prime Minister just ask that it be called six o'clock, rather than move the adjournment of the debate. I have in mind the effect of standing order 27.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Then if Your Honour would call it six o'clock, this debate would remain unfinished.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Yes, and it will be first next time.
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Thomas Langton Church: It involves a change in the British North America Act, and would extend to all the civil service, including the police.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I do not wish to engage in a discussion of the point at the moment. However, it being six o'clock, I suggest that further debate on the matter might take place at some other time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Next Wednesday.


Thomas Langton Church: It could be done by a subvention, could it not?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Si. Laurent:: It being six o'clock I understand that the Speaker leaves the chair without question put. Tomorrow the first order of business will be the continuation of the debate on the resolution standing in my name with respect to amendment of the British North America Act. If that is disposed of we will proceed with second reading of Bill No. 12, to establish the Canadian Overseas Telecommunication Corporation; then Bill No. 62, respecting forest conservation. As has already been announced by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), whatever progress may be made on those measures, at eight o'clock he will reintroduce the budget resolutions. I assume that, in accordance with the usual practice, after his speech and some remarks by one of the hon. members of the opposition, the debate will be adjourned. If it is adjourned and the other matters have been disposed of, then estimates will be resumed.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
[Stage Direction]

Thursday, October 20, 1949