1949-02-28

PRIVILEGE


Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of personal privilege affecting my position as leader of the government in this house.
The question of privilege arises out of a statement the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) is reported in this morning's Montreal Gazette to have made at McGill university on Saturday afternoon. The statement, which is in very sweeping terms, refers to certain measures the government is seeking to introduce in this house, measures which the leader of the opposition has not yet seen but which nevertheless he condemns unseen.
There are two sentences in the reported statement which cannot be allowed to pass without an immediate challenge. They are as follows:
Make no mistake about it: we are fighting for personal and economic freedom here in Canada today.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Mr. SI. Laurent:: It is edifying to hear this applause.
We are in a very real danger of losing that fight to the bureaucrats who accept the basic philosophy of Karl Marx no matter what political name they may adopt.
By bureaucrats the public is apt to understand the senior members of the public service and to regard that statement as an indiscriminate attack upon them. It will also no doubt be regarded as an attack on the government which is responsible-and alone responsible-for the measures brought before this house. That aspect of the matter, however, is one about which I make no complaint, because we are prepared and able to defend the government at all times, no matter what charges are leveled against us. But if the leader of the opposition has proof that deputy ministers or any other senior civil servants "accept the basic philosophy of Karl Marx", let him name the individuals and produce his proofs.


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Some hon. Members:: A political speech!


Mr. Graydon:: What is the question of privilege?


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: My privilege is to be advised by reliable public servants; and if the leader of the opposition has any information which would discredit any of the senior public servants who advise the government it is my privilege, the privilege of parliament and the privilege of my country to have him name them and offer his proof.
Those of us who know our conscientious and hardworking public servants are apt to regard as absurd any such general charge. But the general public do not and cannot know the members of the public service as we do. I feel I would be failing in my duty if I did not publicly repudiate as irresponsible and unwarranted such an attack on a group of people who, by our constitutional practice, are not in a position to defend themselves unless charged individually and specifically.
In the long run I do not think our people will be much impressed by sweeping and irresponsible statements which are not backed up by the slightest bit of evidence. That is not the Canadian tradition of justice and fair play.


Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):: The Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has invited an answer to his political speech, and I accept that invitation. If he had taken the trouble to read the speech, even as reported in the limited space given it in the press, he would have seen that I was referring to the appointment of controllers, priority officials and people who are not his senior civil servants but who under these acts have powers equal to any powers conferred by any authoritarian state in the world today.
Since the Prime Minister has challenged my remarks as ridiculous, I accept the challenge and say that the last man in Canada who should challenge me in regard to the abuse of power is the Prime Minister himself. I have not forgotten that, as Minister of Justice, the present Prime Minister laid charges against public men that had no relation to the law. He had neither the courage to proceed nor the decency to apologize.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. The Prime Minister raised a question of privilege and the leader of the opposition may reply, but I would ask
950	HOUSE OF
Privilege-Mr. St. Laurent him to be kind enough to confine his remarks to the question of privilege.


George Alexander Drew: I am very happy to do so. The Prime Minister has prepared a statement-it is in the hands of all the representatives of the press. It creates an impression that bears no relation to any careful reading of the speech I made on Saturday. He has challenged the evidence of the abuse of powers.
I say that no man in Canada has abused power more than the present Prime Minister.
I have a particular reason for remembering that he it was who, as minister of justice, laid a charge against a man then in public office and, I repeat, he had neither the courage to proceed nor the decency to withdraw or apologize for that charge. Then, in order that his position might not be exposed, he used the power of censorship under his department to prevent the publication of a letter which would have shown indecent and improper use of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police by his department while he was the minister of justice.


Jean-Paul Stephen St-Laurent: The leader of the opposition charges that this is politics, Mr. Speaker. If it is politics to ensure the proper administration of the affairs of the country, then I admit his assertion. I make no apology for defending here the good repute of the senior servants of Canada.


George Alexander Drew: What is the question of privilege?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: He cannot take it, but I can.


Mr. Abbott:: This reminds me of Acadia university.


Mr. Garson:: Or Carleton county.


Mr. Speaker:: I would ask hon. members to keep order. The Prime Minister has raised a question of privilege, and the leader of the opposition has answered. I was quite generous about that. He challenged the Prime Minister, and I believe it is only fair that the Prime Minister be permitted to answer the accusation.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see that the leader of the opposition does not venture to name any public servant, or to bring any charges against anyone. As to the charges he makes against me, I make no complaint whatever; I am prepared to meet them at any time and at all times. If the leader of the opposition thinks he can convince the Canadian public that there is a vestige of truth in what he has stated here this afternoon, he is welcome to the opportunity of doing so.


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: I completely and unreservedly deny the charges he has made here. An incident occurred some years ago that seemed to constitute a violation of the defence of Canada regulations. I consulted two of the most prominent lawyers of the bar of Toronto, and I followed their advice in everything that was done about that matter.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, I challenged-


Some hon. Members:: Order.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I would ask hon. members on both sides of the house to abide by the rules. It is the duty of the Speaker to protect freedom of speech. The leader of the opposition should be allowed to say a word, but I suggest to him that he do not start another debate.


George Alexander Drew: Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has taken the position that he is prepared to challenge the truth of what I have said. I shall tomorrow, therefore, lay on the table a letter written to the Prime Minister of Canada, referring to this subject, which deals fully with the Prime Minister's position in that matter.


Douglas Charles Abbott: How about naming the bureaucrats, too?



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. Fair:: 1.	What quantity of wheat was delivered under the British wheat agreement in each of the crop years 1946-47, 1947-48 and the first six months of the 1948-49 crop year?
2.	At what price per bushel was this wheat sold?
3.	During each of the above periods, what quantity of class II wheat was sold?
4.	What was the average price per bushel obtained?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1.	Wheat delivered under the Canada-
United Kingdom wheat agreement: Agreement year	Million bushels
1946- 47	 169-0
1947- 48	 170-6
1948-	49 (Aug. 1/48 to Jan. 31/49) 61-6
2.	Selling price per bushel (Canada-United
Kingdom agreement):	1946-47, *$1.55 per
bushel; 1947-48, *$1.55 per bushel; 1948-49, *$2.00 per bushel-basis No. 1 northern wheat in store Fort William-Port Arthur, Vancouver or Churchill.
* Exclusive of carrying charges amounting to 3 1/2 cents per bushel during 1946-47 and 1947-48 and 5 cents per bushel during 1948-49.

3.	Class II wheat sales Million bushels
1946-	47	
71-91947-	48	
17-74.	Average per bushel (class II) for all grades shipped:1946-	47	
$2.411947-	48 (prel.)	
$2.77
N.B.-"Wheat", in all cases, includes wheat and wheat flour.


CANADA-UNITED KINGDOM AGREEMENT   SALES TO OTHER COUNTRIES
Mrs. Strum:: 1.	What has been the initial payment for wheat to date in each year of the British wheat contract?
2.	What have been the supplementary payments on participation certificates?
3.	To what countries, outside of the British wheat agreement, has Canada sold wheat?
4.	What was the (1) average price; (2) total amount; (3) total revenue each year, of the wheat thus sold outside the British wheat contract?
5.	What period of time will the new wheat contracts cover; (a) with the British government; (b) with each of any other countries?
6.	What is the price being paid to the farmers for their wheat under these new contracts?


Mr. Mcllrailh:: 1.	Initial payment for wheat:
The Wheat Board Act provides for the initial payment to be increased from time to time. Two supplementary payments of 20 cents each have been declared bringing the total initial payments to:
1946-	47-$1.35 per bushel, plus 20 cents, plus 20 cents-$1.75, basis No. 1 northern wheat in store Fort William-Port Arthur or Vancouver.
1947-	48 (August 1, 1947 to March 31, 1948)- $1.35 per bushel, plus 20 cents, plus 20 cents- $1.75, basis No. 1 northern wheat in store Fort William-Port Arthur or Vancouver. (April 1, 1948 to July 31, 1948)-$1.55 per bushel, plus 20 cents-$1.75, basis No. 1 northern wheat in store Fort William-Port Arthur or Vancouver.
2.	Supplementary payments on participation
certificates:
Answered by No. 1.
3.	Countries outside of Canada-United
Kingdom wheat agreement purchasing
Canadian wheat:
1946-	47: Barbados, Belgium, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, France, Honduras, India, Ireland, Jamaica, Netherlands, Newfoundland, Norway, other British West Indies, Peru, Portugal, South Africa, St. Vincent, Switzerland, St. Pierre, Trinidad, and United States. Also small quantities of seed wheat to: Cuba, Greece, Guatemala, Hungary.
1947-	48: Barbados, Belgium, Jamaica, Netherlands, Italy, St. Vincent, Trinidad, and United States.
Questions
4.	Details of wheat sales outside of the Canada-United Kingdom wheat agreement:
(1)	Average Price-For all Grades Shipped
1946-	47	
$2.411947-	48 (Prel.)	
2.77(2)	Total Quantity (Bushels)1946-	47	
71,878,528-461947-	48 (Prel.)	
17,694,114-46(3)	Total Value1946-	47	
$173,422,749.351947-	48 (Prel.)	
49,087,578.665.	(a) The only wheat contract now in force is that between Canada and the United Kingdom, namely the Canada-United Kingdom wheat agreement signed July 24, 1946 effective until July 31, 1950.(b)	Answered by (a).6.	See answer to questions 1 and 5.
N.B.-"Wheat" in all cases, includes wheat and wheat flour.


TRANSFERS TO THE NETHERLANDS OF ARMY STORES AND EQUIPMENT
Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):: 1.	What stores and equipment have been or will be transferred to the Netherlands government as a result of the agreements signed at The Hague, November 28, 1946, and October 28, 1948?
2.	What was the cost to the Netherlands government?
3.	What was the original cost to the Canadian government?
4.	What amphibious vehicles were transferred?


Mr. Baker:: 1.	Canadian army field force stores and equipment physically situated in the Netherlands and not required by the post-war Canadian armed forces in Canada, including stores and equipment war damaged or reduced to scrap through operations; also a small amount of Canadian army surplus stores and equipment in the United Kingdom and elsewhere in Europe.
2.	$29,300,000.
. 3. This figure could only be given by going back to get the costs of thousands of individual items.
4. Approximately seventy, some in very dilapidated condition.


FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL
Mr. Fulton:: How much has been paid to authorized dealers pursuant to section 17 of the Foreign Exchange Control Act in every year since the coming into force of that act to date?


Mr. Belzile:: 1947,	$4,799,273.81;	1948.


$4,955,856.04. HOUSE OF COMMONS
[Stage Direction]
Questions

Mr. Argue:: 1.	What have been the total expenditures made for the purposes of the Agricultural Prices Support Act since 1944?
2.	Of the $200 million provided for the purposes of the act, what sum is still available for support of agricultural prices?
3.	What agricultural products have received support under the act, and what amount has been paid for the support of each agricultural product in each
year?
4.	What agricultural products are supported under the act and at what price is each product supported?


Mr. McCubbin:: 1.	$4,557,546.66.
2.	$196,674,860.01. Net expenditures in fiscal years 1946-47 and 1947-48 were recouped to the agricultural prices support fund by votes of parliament.
3.	Nova Scotia apples, 1947 crop: 1947-48, $1,000,000.00; 1948-49, $2,299,416.97.
Nova Scotia apples, 1948 crop: 1948-49, $1,025,723.02.
New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island potatoes, 1946 crop: 1946-47, $109,395.18; 194748, $61,353.30.
In the year 1946-47 the contracts with Great Britain in respect to meats, dairy products and eggs were financed under the Agricultural Prices Support Act. There was an over-all deficit of $61,658.19 on the transactions involved.
4.	Potatoes grown in Prince Edward Island and in designated areas of New Brunswick in 1948: $1.15 per 100 lb. for Canada No. 1 grade potatoes in growers' bins on and after April 1, 1949.
Apples grown in designated areas of Nova Scotia in 1948: $3.90 per barrel if the apples are sold by the board as fresh apples; $2.50 per barrel if the apples are processed by the board as dried apples or concentrated apple juice.
Apples grown in designated areas of British Columbia in 1948 (to a maximum of 250,000 boxes): $2.00 per packed box for the varieties Newton, Stayman and Rome Beauty of sizes 180, 198, 216 and 234, and for the variety Winesap of sizes 216, 234 and 252 .
Dried white beans grading Canada No. 1 and Canada No. 2 grown in 1948 in Ontario: $3.75 per bushel delivered to warehouse. (Support program to include purchase of approximately 35,000 bushels for refugee relief plus such payments as may be necessary -to a maximum of $200,000-to meet any deficiency between the support price actually realized by farmers in marketing the product.)



FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	What has been the amount expended for the purchase of (a) gold; (b) United States currency; (c) foreign currencies other than currencies of the United States with moneys in or advanced to the exchange fund account for every year since the enactment of the Exchange Fund Act to the enactment of the Foreign Exchange Control Act?
2.	What has been the expenditure under the same headings as in part 1 of this question, for every year since the enactment of the Foreign Exchange Control Act to date?


Mr. Belzile:: 1.
Prior to Sept. 15, 1939, when foreign exchange control order passed ....
Sept. 15, 1939-Dec. 31, 1940	 +
1941		 _
1942		 +
1943		 +
1944		 -f
1945	 41946 	 4-
2.
1947		 -
1948		 4-
United States Other foreign Gold	dollars	currencies
(Net purchases -f) (Net sales -)
Nil	Nil	Nil$150,006,494	+	$190,053,890	+	$ 61,291,373693,583	-	159,008,497	+	567,485,19321,120,068	+	65,683,482	618,339,33776,369,022	+	287,150,733	50,42176,523,815	+	173,084,061	-	4,015,49564,899,176	+	457,319,527	+	1,322,545147,813,412	-	328,034,611	1,350,769249,402,153	__	514,414,744	+	2,432,043114,714,312	+	402,631,226	879,969



HOUSING


Mr. Johnston:: [DOT]
In view of the foreclosure proceedings by the Manufacturers Life Insurance Company of Calgary, Alberta, against home owners who have houses under construction by the Bow River Construction Company, will the government see to it that these

veterans and some civilians will not lose their financial equity in their property as a result of these foreclosures?


Mr. Winters:: There is no contractual relationship between the purchasers of these houses and either the government or the government agency, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. The foreclosure pro-

Questions
ceedings now in progress against the Bow River Construction Company and its purchasers fall into two general classes. Some actions are being taken because purchasers in possession of their properties have refused to make payments on their mortgage accounts. The second class of action consists of those taken on unfinished houses, and the actions are necessary to clear the title status so that construction may be resumed.



TRADE AGREEMENTS


Mr. Hansell:: 1.	Does any trade agreement exist at the present time between Canada and the U.S.S.R.?
2.	If so, when did the agreement come into effect, and when will it expire?


Mr. Pearson:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



WARTIME PRICES AND TRADE BOARD


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: 1.	How many prosecutions were made in Pictou county, Nova Scotia, under the wartime prices and trade board regulations during the years 1943 to 1948, inclusive?
2.	What was the total amount collected in fines from such prosecutions?
3.	Who acted as counsel for the department during these prosecutions and how much money was paid to such counsel?


Mr. Belzile:: 1.	52.
2.	$4,405.
3.	J. H. Power, K.C., $3,850.46; E. M. MacDonald, $45.12.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


Mr. Hazen:: 1.	What were the gross earnings, and the net earnings of the Canadian National Railways line that runs from a point near Island Pond, Vermont, to Portland, Maine, in 1947 and 1948?
2.	What were the operating expenses of the Canadian National Railways on this line in 1947 and 1948?
3.	How much of the operating expenses in 1947 and in 1948 were paid in United States dollars?
4.	How much of the gross earnings in 1947 and 1948 were received in United States dollars?


Mr. Chevrier:: 1.		1947	1948
	Gross earnings .. .	$2,183,700 $2,405,000	
Net earnings-loss	511,922	572,1622.	2,695,622	2,977,1623.	2,339,322	2,610,1874.	Estimated 	1,848,700	2,085,000
BOW RIVER CONSTRUCTION COMPANY Mr. Johnston:
What are the qualifications of the contractors of the Bow River Construction Company, Calgary, Alberta, as to building experience?


Robert Henry Winters: The Bow River Construction Company was a new company formed early in 1947. The Bow River company, therefore, as such entered its first building operations in 1947.
It is not unusual in the construction business for a number of principals with the necessary capital to form a new company.
The customary plan usually followed following the formation of a new company is for the company to arrange either to let contracts to regular building contractors for the building of their houses, or to appoint a construction superintendent to supervise the construction of the houses. Subcontracts are usually let for plumbing, heating, wiring, etc.
The Bow River company proved to the satisfaction of the Manufacturers Life Insurance Company that it had the necessary working capital to finance its building program. Individual loan approvals were granted for the various houses on the understanding that the houses would be built according to National Housing Act minimum standards of construction. It was the obligation of the Bow River Construction Company to ensure the employment of competent construction personnel to carry out its commitments under the loan approvals granted to it by the Manufacturers Life Insurance Company.



RADIO RECEIVING LICENCES


Mr. Black (Cumberland):: 1.	How many people were prosecuted in the county of Pictou, Nova Scotia, for failure to have a radio licence during the years 1944 to 1948 inclusive?
2.	What was the total amount collected in fines from such prosecutions?
3.	Who acted as counsel for the department during these prosecutions and how much money was paid to such counsel?
4.	Who acted as agents for the department and how much money was paid to each of such agents?


Mr. Chevrier:: Fiscal Years
1.	1943-44	
211944-	45	
Nil1945-	46	
421946-	47	
671947-	48	
361948-	49 to February 25	
1172.	1943-44	
$ 741944-	45	
Nil1945-	46	
2101946-	47	
2151947-	48	
1801948-	49 to February 25	
5673.	Nil.4.	Departmental radio inspectors. No remuneration other than regular salaries.



S54 HOUSE OF COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Questions

Mr. Isnor:: 1.	On what dates did the Public Works Department construct buildings for use by the Post Office Department in Nova Scotia at (a) Sherbrooke; (b) Dominion; (c) Kingston; (d) Canso?
2.	On whose recommendation were such buildings constructed?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1.	(a) Commenced in March 1930 and completed in November 1930.
(b)	No building erected.
(c)	No building erected.
(d)	Commenced in April 1945 and completed in May 1946.
2.	On the recommendation of the Post Office Department.



FLIN FLON, MAN., POST OFFICE BUILDING

Mr. Moore:: 1.	Has a contract been let for the construction of a post office at Flin Flon, Manitoba?
2.	If so, what are the names of those who submitted tenders?
3.	Who was awarded the contract?


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: 1. No.
2 and 3. Answered by No. 1.



HOUSING


Mr. Williams:: 1.	How many houses are being constructed by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in Ajax?
2.	What is the expected construction cost for each house?
3.	Are such houses for sale? If so. what will be the selling price for each house?
4.	Is each house under construction in Ajax by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation intended to provide the same family accommodation? If not, to what extent do they differ?
5.	Is it intended that any of these houses shall be for rent?
6.	H so, what monthly rental will be charged?


Mr. Winters:: 1.	One ljundred units as a housing project plus four experimental units being constructed for research purposes.
2.	With respect to the 100 units, the expected construction cost is $7,020, which includes connections to main sewer and water services, landscaping, sidewalks, driveway, etc.
3.	It is not yet decided whether any of these houses will be for sale.
4.	All houses are the same basic type having five rooms (three bedrooms).
5.	Yes.
6.	Monthly rental rates will be decided when construction nears completion and costs are known. According to present cost estimates, it is expected these rentals will be approximately $37.50 per unit per month.



POSTAL SERVICE


Mr. Nicholson:: 1.	How many post offices in each province reported for the last fiscal year revenue less than twenty-five dollars?
2.	What was the estimated loss sustained by the Post Office Department last year in handling newspapers and periodicals mailed by publishers?


Mr. Bertrand (Laurier):: 1.
Nova Scotia	 38
New Brunswick	   19
Prince Edward Island	 nil
Quebec	  9
Ontario	 14
Manitoba	 1
Saskatchewan	 10
Alberta	 6
British Columbia	 3
Northwest Territories	 1
Yukon	 1
Total	 102
2. $7,460,689.



CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION


Mr. Isnor:: 1.	Has King Gordon been employed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation during the present year?
2.	If so (a) on what dates; (b) at what salary; (c) for what services?


Mr. McCann:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) On a continuous basis under contract as C.B.C. special correspondent, United Nations.
(b)	It is not considered to be in the public interest to disclose the amounts paid to those employed by C.B.C.
(c)	See 2a.




Mr. Isnor:: 1.	Has Mr. Robert McKeown, of the Montreal Standard, been employed by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation during the present year?
2.	If so (a) on what dates; (b) at what salary; (c) for what services?


Mr. McCann:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) January 30 (national service); January 31, February 2, 14, 17 (international service).
(b)	It is not considered to be in the public interest to disclose the amounts paid to those employed by C.B.C.
(c)	As commentator on per-occasion basis.



FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS AND ADMINISTRATIVE


Mr. Fulton:: 1.	Under what authority were orders in council P.C. 209/2166, and P.C. 210/2166, dated May 14, 1948, passed?
2.	When were these orders in council published in the Canada Gazette?


Mr. St. Laurent:: 1. These minutes of treasury board set up leave and allowance regulations for foreign service officers and administrative staffs abroad.
Provision for special leave and allowances had been made in the Department of External Affairs and the Department of Trade and Commerce ever since the opening of our first foreign diplomatic mission in 1927. The minutes of treasury board referred to above were an attempt to consolidate and clarify these provisions and, in addition, to extend them to other departments having personnel abroad in order to provide for uniformity of treatment.
In so far as allowances are concerned, the governor in council, under his general executive authority, can prescribe allowances in lieu of expenses for government employees. These allowances are provided out of parliamentary votes for administrative expenses.
A certain number of the government employees in missions abroad are exempt
Questions
from the provisions of the Civil Service Act. In so far as this category of employee is concerned, the governor in council can prescribe special leave regulations. In the case of employees coming under the provisions of the Civil Service Act, however, special leave regulations can only be approved by the governor in council on the recommendation of the civil service commission. In passing treasury board minutes P.C. 209/2166 and P.C. 210/2166 this provision of the Civil Service Act was apparently overlooked, no doubt in view of the fact that this practice had been followed for many years under various administrations. This matter was first brought to our attention by the Auditor General's report for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1948, and the necessary steps will be taken to have the position regularized.
2. These treasury board minutes were not published in the Canada Gazette, since it is not the practice to publish minutes dealing exclusively with the internal administration of government departments.



POST OFFICES'-NOVA SCOTIA  ANNUAL REVENUE

Mr. Isnor:: What was the annual revenue for the past five years in each of the following post offices in Nova Scotia: (a) Sherbrooke; (b) Dominion; (c) Kingston; (d) Canso?


Mr. Bertrand (Laurier):: Revenue for Fiscal Year Ended March 31
1944	1945	1946	1947	1948Sherbrooke, N.S. ..	. . $ 2,844.12	$ 3,080.52	$ 2,842.51	$ 2,836.71	$ 2,854.12Dominion, N.S	.. 5,593.92	5,934.94	4,393.13	4,451.77	3,854.60Kingston, N.S	.. 21,476.85	15,466.86	8,032.97	7,055.41	8,124.92Canso, N.S	.. 6,415.57	6,736.86	6,291.92	6,220.90	5,621.44



* TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY

Mr. Black (Cumberland):: 1.	What recommendations have been made by the different provinces of Canada with respect to possible routes of the trans-Canada highway?
2.	What was the date of each such recommendation and what is the mileage of each route recommended by each province?
3.	What routes have been approved by the federal government?
4.	What is the total cost to date of construction of the trans-Canada highway in each province and what contribution did the dominion government make in each province towards such construction?


Mr. MacKinnon:: There is very little that
I can add to the reply made by me in the house on February 15 last to a similar question asked by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green). All the information which we requested from the provinces has not yet
been received. I expect we shall be asked to treat some of it as confidential. I have written to all the provinces asking whether there is objection on their part to making any or all of the information public. Until their wishes are ascertained and the complete information is available, it will be impossible to answer this question further. We have recently sent follow-up letters to some of the provinces which did not reply to our first letters.



FLOOD CONDITIONS-WINNIPEG

Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):: What steps are being taken by the federal government in conjunction with other authorities to avert serious flood conditions in Winnipeg which may arise as the result of the exceptionally heavy snow fall?

Orders for Returns


Mr. Fournier (Hull):: In order to avert flooding as far as possible this department has now opened all the gates in the dam at St. Andrews. In addition to this, the department is prepared to open the lock gates should it be seen that this will alleviate conditions.



VEGETABLE OILS


Mr. Hatfield:: 1.	When were the restrictions removed against importations of vegetable oils into Canada?
2.	What were the reasons for the removal of such restrictions?


Mr. Mcllraiih:: 1.	February 17, 1949.
2.	Vegetable oils were originally placed under import control as a means of implementing the allocation of vegetable oils by the international emergency food council. On February 10, 1949, the international emergency food council discontinued the allocation of vegetable oils, thereby removing the legal basis for import control in Canada. [DOT]



PARENT, QUE., POSTMASTERSHIP

Mr. Caouette:: 1.	Who is the postmaster at Parent, county of Chapleau?
2.	When was he appointed and upon whose recommendation?
3.	Were representations made by the citizens of Parent regarding this appointment?


Mr. Bertrand (Laurier):: 1.	Joseph Napoleon Arthur Dupont.
2.	(a) 18th June 1947; (b) Selected by civil service commission.
3.	Yes.



INTERNATIONAL CHILDREN'S EMERGENCY FUND- CANADIAN CONTRIBUTIONS

Mrs. Strum:: What amounts of money did the federal government make available to the united nations international children's emergency fund in the years (a) 1947; (b) 1948?


Mr. Pearson:: (a), $5,000,000; (b) $200,000 (through the Canadian appeal for children).



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


NATIONAL FILM BOARD


Mr. Fraser:: 1.	How many men and women were employed by the national film board during 1948?
2.	What was the total amount of salaries paid to these employees during 1948?
3.	What was the total amount of travelling expenses for all employees of the national film board during the year 1948?

4.	How many of the above employees are employed outside of Canada and what are their (a) names; (b) salaries; (c) duties of each of them?


Robert Henry Winters: Return tabled.



PENITENTIARIES


Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf):: What are the names of the magazines circulating in the St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary?


Stuart Sinclair Garson: Return tabled.



VETERANS LAND ACT


Mr. McCuaig:: 1.	Under the Veterans Land Act, in the province of Saskatchewan, from January 1, 1948, to December 31, 1948, what has been the total number of (a) service men settled on farms (not small holdings); (b) loans made to such veterans, by districts?
2.	What was the total amount of salaries, travelling and other expenses in connection with the administration of the above?



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES    DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT AT RESERVE AIRPORT, N.S.

Mr. Isnor:: 1.	Was a trans-ocean North Star T.C.A. plane damaged by fire at the reserve airport, Nova Scotia, on August 11 or 12, 1948?
2.	If so (a) was an inquiry held to ascertain the cause; (b) was cause discovered; (c) what action, if any, has since been taken to prevent a recurrence?
3.	What was the total loss sustained?
4.	Are there any Department of Transport regulations requiring airports to maintain fire-fighting equipment?



HOGS MARKETED IN CANADA AND PORK CONSUMED AND EXPORTED

Mr. McCuaig:: How many hundredweight of hogs were marketed in Canada in the years 1940 to 1948 inclusive, and how much pork was (a) consumed in Canada; (b) exported?



PUBLIC BUILDINGS-ONTARIO

Mr. Lockhart:: 1.	Have recommendations been made by the Post Office Department for new or improved public buildings in the province of Ontario?
2.	If so, in what villages, towns or cities have improved facilities been recommended?
3.	Are plans being prepared by the public works department for new or improved public buildings in the province of Ontario?
4.	If so, in what villages, towns or cities?



TELEVISION RECEIVING SETS

Mr. McKay:: 1.	How many television receiving sets are licensed in Canada at present?
2.	What is the licence fee?
3.	What companies manufacture television receiving sets in Canada?



GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS


Mr. Moore:: 1.	What was the value of government contracts let in the Churchill area in 1946, 1947 and 1948?
2.	How are these contracts let?
3.	What companies submitted tenders?
4.	To whom were such contracts awarded?
5.	Were any sub-contracts let?
6.	If so, to whom?



FLOOD CONDITIONS


Mr. Campbell:: How much money was expended by the federal government to alleviate flood conditions (a) in the Fraser Valley district; (b) in other parts of British Columbia?



POTATOES


Mr. Hatfield:: What steps have been taken by the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Trade and Commerce towards having discussions with Washington in regard to regulations for the shipments of our 1949 potato crop so that the potato growers can be advised in time to make arrangements for the planting of their crop?



RADIO RECEIVING LICENCES

Mr. Caoueile:: 1.	From January 1, 1940 to January 1, 1949, by provinces, how many radio receiving licences have been issued each year?
2.	During the same period, how many Canadians were fined for failure to obtain such licences?
3.	What was the total amount of fines collected each year during the above period?
4.	Since 1940, what was the yearly cost of collecting such fines in judicial proceedings, salaries and other expenses?
5.	How many dominion civil servants are employed in connection with radio receiving licences?



WAR ASSETS


Mr. Nowlan:: 1.	Was the M.V. Kipawo sold by War Assets Corporation?
2.	If so, was such sale effected by tender or by private contract?
3.	If by tender, what were the names of the persons or firms submitting such tenders, and the amounts thereof?
4.	Who purchased the said Kipawo, and for what amount?
5.	Has any provision been made respecting a subsidy for the re-establishment of a ferry service operating between ports on the Minas basin?
(Translation):



PRIVILEGE


Mr. Paul E. Gagnon (Chicoutimi):: Mr. Speaker, notices of motions Nos. 26 and 32 which appear on the order paper for Friday, February 25 last, have been struck off today's order paper. The right hon. leader of the government might perhaps tell me why and under whose authority this was done?
Motions for Papers


Louis Stephen St-Laurent: Mr. Speaker, I was not aware that anything had been struck off the order paper. I will note the hon. member's remarks and see to it that this mistake is corrected if necessary.


Paul-Edmond Gagnon: Thank you.
(Text):



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Heber Harold Hatfield: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and agreements, exchanged between Washington and Ottawa by the agricultural prices support board and the Department of Trade and Commerce regarding potatoes, potato support program and embargoes for the years 1948 and 1949.



WHEAT BOARD


Mr. Bentley:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the premier of Manitoba or any department of the government of Manitoba and any minister or department of the federal government, from March 11, 1948, to February 21, 1949, with respect to the need of enabling legislation by the provinces regarding the inclusion of oats and barley in the operation of the wheat board.



PROTECTION OF CHILDREN ADOPTED IN NEW BRUNSWICK

Gladys Grace Mae Strum: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, agreements and other documents, exchanged since 1946 between officials of the government of New Brunswick, and/or other persons, and the various departments of the federal government, with regard to the existing protection afforded Canadian children available for adoption in that province.



INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
Wheat board
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):: wish to direct a question to the Minister of National Revenue. Is he aware that where income tax is owing for any one of the crop years for which additional payments are to be made by the Canadian wheat board, the income tax department is forwarding a letter to be signed by the farmer and sent to the Canadian wheat board, authorizing the board to mail to the director of income tax, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, any cheques covering the proceeds of payments to the farmer? An accompanying letter contains one sentence which reads as follows:
It would not appear that the proceeds of your 1948 crop will permit the liquidation of your income tax indebtedness at this time.
958	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry
The farmer who writes to me is relying on the additional payments to meet his cost of living and farming operations this spring. Is not the suggestion of the department an interference with the right of the individual to dispose of his funds as may be most beneficial to him?


Hon. J. J. McCann (Minister of National Revenue):: The hon. gentleman was good enough to give me notice of his question. I would think that, either in the typing or writing of it, an error has been made. As the hon. member read it, it states: "It would not appear that the proceeds," and so on. The logical reading of it would seem to be, "It would now appear . .


Major James William Coldwell: There may have been a typographical error; I will check that.


James Joseph McCann: Then the sentence would read:
It would now appear that the proceeds of your 1948 crop will permit the liquidation of your income tax indebtedness at this time.
My answer is that I am aware of the practice that is being followed. It is an ordinary business practice that is followed every day in every line of business throughout the country. It simply means that the department indicates to the taxpayer that the payment coming to him from the wheat board will permit him to liquidate his indebtedness so far as income tax is concerned. He is asked to give us an order on the wheat board for the amount owing him. It is not obligatory.
There is no suggestion of any interference with the right of the individual to dispose of his funds in any way he pleases.



TAX YEAR TO WHICH ADDITIONAL WHEAT PAYMENTS SHOULD BE APPLICABLE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Joseph McCann: On Friday last some questions were asked, by the hon. members for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), Melfort (Mr. Wright) and Acadia (Mr. Quelch), with reference to the tax year in which additional wheat payments were applicable for income tax purposes.
The answer is that, as was done in former years, appropriate action will be taken to ensure that the farmer will not have to pay more tax by reason of including this payment as income in this year than he would have paid if that amount had been included in his income in the year in which he delivered the wheat.


Mr. Fair:: I should like to ask the Minister of National Revenue whether he will make a statement tomorrow clarifying the statement
tMr. Coldwell.]

he has just made. When he does so, will he keep in mind the practice of the past of farmers paying taxes on these wheat payments in the year in which they are received?


James Joseph McCann: I do not quite agree with the hon. gentleman that the statement needs any clarification. I think if he will read it he will find that it can be easily understood; but if at this time tomorrow he does not understand it, I shall attempt to clarify it.


Mr. Miller:: Will the minister indicate how the executors or administrators of an estate should show the distribution of participation certificates now being made, as announced the other day by the Minister of Trade and Commerce? There is a mix-up between the two acts, the one that came into force on January 1, 1949, and the old act. Income taxes will soon have to be paid, and these participation payments are now going out. The question how executors and administrators should deal with these payments in the various years should be cleared up.


James Joseph McCann: I do not attempt to answer legal questions. I shall refer this one to the legal advisers of my department.



RECONSTRUCTION AND SUPPLY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Howard C. Green (Vancouver South):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply. Can he tell the house when the report of his department will be available? I ask that question because on the last day of the session of 1948 I brought the matter up in the house and pointed out that since the fiscal year 1944-45 no report of the department had been tabled. At that time the then prime minister promised that the report would be mailed out to the various members. I believe that so far no report has been tabled, either for 1947-48 or for the two years prior to that. The minister will find my question and the answer thereto at page 6143 of last year's Hansard.


Robert Henry Winters: I received notice of this question just as I was coming into the house, and have not had time to look into the matter. I shall be pleased to do that and answer the question later.


INQUIRY FOR RETURN
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Edmund Davie Fulton: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works. On Wednesday last, following a

motion of mine, an order of the house was issued for a copy of all reports submitted by the Fraser river board. I should appreciate it if the minister could have these reports expedited, because the matter will be probably coming up soon.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall do my best to have the matter expedited.


RAIL CONNECTION TO BORDER BETWEEN CANADA AND UNITED STATES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. Fraser (Peterborough West):: should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Have any arrangements been made with the United States government about the proposed Alaska-United States railway to the United States-Canadian border? I ask the question because bills having to do with the matter have been introduced in the United States senate.


Lester Bowles Pearson: I was not fortunate enough to have received notice of this question before coming into the house. My understanding is that no such arrangements have been made with the United States government, but I shall look into the matter and make sure that my information is accurate.


PRESS REPORTS AS TO WITHDRAWAL OF SUBSIDY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. A. Cruickshank (Fraser Valley):: According to the press, Ontario has withdrawn the hog subsidy of $1 million as of December 31. My question to the Minister of Agriculture is this: Judging from what we have heard, why should it have been necessary for Ontario to have a hog subsidy?



UNEMPLOYMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. Cold well (Rosetown-Biggar): May
I direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce? I note that on page 903 of Friday's Hansard the Minister of Trade and Commerce, referring to the reply given to me by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, said: "There is something wrong with the answer." Will the minister tell the house what is wrong with the answer, and what the correct answer is?
Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I was talking to myself at
Inquiries of the Ministry that time. However, I was basing my remark to myself on the fact that as I remembered the shelf of projects they amounted to $350 million. It is my experience that the on-site labour for construction work of the type included in the shelf amounted to about thirty per cent of the cost, therefore the figures given did not seem to add up.
fclr. Coldwell: May I get the accurate figure?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not from me.


Major James William Coldwell: Perhaps the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply has the accurate figure.


Robert Henry Winters: I should like to amplify the answer given by my colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar. It is true that a large number of projects are under consideration. The figures I tabled were only for projects on which plans and specifications are completed. The engineering work is proceeding on many others, but plans are not yet complete.


Major James William Coldwell: None are in effect yet?


Robert Henry Winters: No.



EMMA MOIR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. John T. Hackett (Slanstead):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Mrs. Emma Moir, of Beebe, Quebec, today celebrates, in good health and in full possession of her faculties, her 105th birthday. I wish to ask the minister whether the records of his department disclose another instance of equal or greater longevity.


Hon. Paul Marlin (Minister of National Health and Welfare):: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. gentleman has only lately ascertained the remarkable longevity of this woman and was not able to give me notice of his question; consequently I cannot give him an answer now, but I shall do so tomorrow.
May I take this opportunity to express to the lady in question the sincere congratulations of the government.



MERCHANT NAVY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Rodney Young (Vancouver Centre):: wish to address a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Will the minister consider
960	HOUSE OF
Inquiries of the Ministry taking steps to raise the thirty-year age limit, now stipulated by P.C. 5983, under which Canadian merchant navy veterans are to receive vocational training?


Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Veterans Affairs):: This question more particularly concerns my colleague the Minister of Transport.


Lionel Chevrier: Application for vocational training is made to the Department of Transport, but administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs. I may say that the age limit was based on a recommendation made by the special committee on veterans affairs which was set up by this house. I have no information at this time that the age limit is to be changed.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Speaker, I may be incorrect assuming the contrary, but I should like to ask the Minister of Transport if it is definitely so that the veterans affairs committee recommended the age of thirty years?


Lionel Chevrier: The statement I made was that the age limit as recommended by the veterans affairs committee was thirty years, and that I had no information that it was to be increased.


George Alexander Cruickshank: A supplementary question: is that from the veterans affairs committee or some other committee?


Lionel Chevrier: My information is that it was a recommendation of the special committee on veterans affairs.



VETERANS AFFAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. Ralph Maybank (Winnipeg South Centre):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Is some change being made in the manner of giving treatment to outpatients at the Deer Lodge hospital, or in the Winnipeg area? If so, what is the change? If there is no change, will the minister make a statement in the matter?


Milton Fowler Gregg: I thank the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre for giving me notice of this question.
This matter has been given careful study by the treatment services of our department. It is the considered opinion of our department that better treatment for outpatients can be given in a D.V.A. hospital than separately in a downtown centre. Since the general pressure of work across Canada has


passed the post-demobilization peak, we have been able to make moves of outpatient clinics into the D.V.A. hospitals in several centres in Canada.
We believe that this method is working out for the better treatment of the veteran patients, and it has presented few administrative difficulties. In Winnipeg there has been no intention to change the existing arrangements until June 1, at which time it is planned that an increasing number of outpatients be received at Deer Lodge.
These outpatients will be in two categories: (1) after June, Deer Lodge inpatients will, when discharged, be requested to return for any future checkup to the clinic at Deer Lodge hospital; (2) an increasing number of outpatients applying at the clinic in the Commercial building downtown will be sent to Deer Lodge for outpatient treatment. The decision as to how many will be sent to the hospital will depend upon the condition of the patients.
Facilities will be maintained in the Commercial building, where minor ailments will receive treatment. For the necessary numbers to be transferred to Deer Lodge, transportation will be provided. With the gradual contraction of this clinic, starting next summer, it is expected that the plan will cause little inconvenience and will result in better medical care for the veterans.
The general idea here, as elsewhere, is to have the patient go where treatment can best be given.



NATIONAL HEALTH


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. Last Thursday, as recorded at page 861 of Hansard, I asked the minister how there could be no figures available as to the expenditure on the health grants plan when the orders in council required accounting by the provinces at the end of each month. The minister at that time offered to look into it at once. Can he tell the house now whether there are figures available as to the amount of money the dominion has actually given to each of the provinces under the health grants program, whether the orders in council have been completely disregarded by the dominion and the provinces, or whether any money has actually gone from the dominion to the provinces?


Paul Joseph James Martin: The hon. member was

kind enough to give me notice of his question. I am afraid that in a private conversation I may have misled him with respect to what appeared to be a discrepancy in the orders in council.


Major James William Coldwell: No.


Paul Joseph James Martin: His question was as to the amount of money spent by the provinces. I had misunderstood it, and on that account I gave the interpretation indicated. The amount of money actually given, apart altogether from the allocations and commitments made to the provinces by the federal government, can be given to the house, and in view of what my hon. friend has now asked, I shall see that it is done. There have been no discrepancies on the part of the provinces and the dominion government with regard to the orders in council.



WHITE BEANS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. O. White (Middlesex East):: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In view of the statement made in the house on Thursday last about the planting of flax in 1949, will the minister give some advice to the farmers as to the planting of white beans this year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not familiar with the situation as it applies to white beans. I understand there has been an exceptionally heavy crop and there has been some difficulty in marketing it. I am not, however, in a position to advise the farmers. My colleague the Minister of Agriculture may be in a position to do so.


Harry Oliver White: Then may I ask the Minister of Agriculture, or his parliamentary assistant?


Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture):: In Ontario white beans are marketed under a marketing board set up by the Ontario government under the Natural Products Marketing Act. Those who are associated with that organization will be in a much better position than I am to advise the farmers. I am told there has been considerable difficulty in marketing the beans grown not only last year but in other years. I am sure the farmers in the area to which the hon. member refers are capable of making up their own minds whether they should grow as many beans this year as they did last year.
Inquiries of the Ministry TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY



INQUIRY AS TO PROGRESS AND CHOICE OF ROUTE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Charles Edward Johnston: I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Mines and Resources. Can he tell the house what progress is being made with regard to the completion of the trans-Canada highway, and, if possible, the route proposed?


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member could not have been in the house earlier this afternoon when I answered a question asked by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black). The answer I gave will appear in Hansard, and I believe it answers sufficiently the question the hon. member now asks. The choice of a route for the trans-Canada highway is a matter for the various provinces.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. L. E. Baker (Parliameniary Assistant to the Minister of National Defence):: I should
like to answer a question asked on Monday, February 21, by the hon. member for Victoria, Ontario (Mr. Hodgson) with respect to an artillery range in Haliburton county. The answer is that no consideration is being given by the army for the establishment at this time of an artillery range in the Haliburton region.



SPEECH FROM THE THRONE


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, February 25, consideration of the motion of Mr. D. F. Brown for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Drew, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell.
Mr. R. R. Knighi (Saskatoon City):: Mr. Speaker, I had intended to deal with agriculture today, and I still intend to do so. But, in view of the discussion which has arisen in regard to the employment shelf of works, I feel I must devote at least a few minutes to that particular topic. I managed today to hear the questions being asked, but I must say I did not hear clearly either of the answers given by the ministers. Therefore I shall proceed from the point I had intended in the first instance. The discussion arose as a result of certain questions asked by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell),

The Address-Mr. Knight the leader of the C.C.F., with regard to a shelf of works the government is supposed to be holding in readiness for a period of unemployment.
These questions with the answers may be found in Hansard of February 23, at page 818, and also of February 25 at page 903.
The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar on this later occasion was so amazed at the answer he had received on the previous occasion that he raised the matter again on Friday. The famous white paper on reconstruction held out hope of a tremendous program of public works for any possible period of unemployment. The then Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, and present Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), made this statement on the matter on April 12, 1945, during the first session of that year, as reported at page 810 of Hansard as follows:
The purpose will be to have on hand at all times a shelf of public projects already planned and available when needed to stimulate employment in any given area.
We have been given to understand time and again that, if serious unemployment threatened Canada, the government had a score of projects for which contracts could be let at a moment's notice, to employ perhaps hundreds of thousands of workers. Then, in the last year or two, we have understood that plans had been made for such works as irrigation projects, roads, reforestation, and the like. We have been told that the government has been holding up needed development until employment dropped. Now, let us return to the answer given by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Winters). It is an amazing answer. In the first place, it is not clear. Depending upon one's interpretation, it would appear that in one year only 32,700 or 40,200 men would be put to work on public projects. Is it any wonder that the former minister of reconstruction said last Friday that there was something the matter with that answer? He might have added that there was something wrong with the plan. It is a meagre, puny and inadequate plan to deal with the potential unemployment in this country.	,
If this answer is correct, it means that this government has practically no plan to meet such unemployment. Even giving the government the benefit of the doubt and accepting the figure of 40,200, let us compare that figure with the 50,000 unemployed in the urban districts of British Columbia at this very moment. There are also large numbers unemployed in the maritime provinces and I understand also in Toronto as well as in other places.


This disclosure of the meagreness of the plan is the most amazing thing that has been brought forward in this House of Commons in the short time I have been here. During the years before the war the unemployed tramped from municipality to municipality in search of work or relief. They were told that the federal government had no power to do anything. The provinces said that although they had the power, they had no money. The junior governments, the municipalities, had neither the money nor the power, and these young men were simply passed on from camp to camp or from jail to jail, these men whose only crime was that at that particular time they had no job. I ask if this Liberal government is prepared to allow conditions similar to those to return.
The leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) does a lot of talking about provincial rights. It would seem that he would like the power and the money to which I have referred to remain in separate hands, the way they were before the war. Perhaps he might say where he stands on this particular matter of public works in Canada.
Since the dominion government can raise the money, since it has the power to initiate public works, responsibility for the unemployed of this nation must fall squarely upon its shoulders. It has the sole responsibility for the employment of the working people of this nation. The only alternative would be to have ten separate nations. May I remind the house that prior to the war the provinces had all the taxing powers which our constitution allowed them, but the programs which they were financially able to initiate were totally inadequate to meet the unemployment problem. Let me repeat that in my opinion this blueprint of the plan of government public works is totally and miserably inadequate.
I had intended to say something about agriculture. While I live in a city, there are a goodly number of farmers in my constituency. Someone has said that without the country our cities could not be. The prosperity of my own city of Saskatoon and of the other towns in that vicinity certainly depends upon the prosperity of the farmer. I am glad to say something about agriculture today especially since we in the C.C.F. group have just moved an amendment expressing non-confidence in the Liberal government because of its failure to make provision for an adequate natural products marketing act.
This is something for which the farm organizations of this country have been asking, whether the members of those organizations grow apples or wheat or livestock. A fairly definite consensus has emerged from all the farmers conventions which have met

in late years. What they want is a degree of stability and security in agriculture. So frequently at farmers meetings we have heard demands for parity prices, planned marketing, bilateral and international agreements. Requests have been made that the operations of the wheat board be extended to cover the marketing of coarse grains. I am pleased to hear a rumour around the corridors that oats and barley are to be brought under the jurisdiction of the wheat board. I hope that is true in spite of the report that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) is not in favour of such a move. I have an extract in my hand here to prove that latter fact but I shall not read it as I assume that the minister probably knows about it.
During the almost forty years of my observation, agriculture has passed through a period of progress, although there has been much hardship and poverty and suffering during that time. One may look back with longing, and perhaps some nostalgia to the early pioneering days. There may have been some romance in those early days. There may have been romance in that long two-day trek to town. There may have been some romance in the clear sunrise of an early morning, in the sharp frost that sent the prairie chickens up into the poplars, or in such little things as the rush of warm steam out of the barn at the stopping-house which you reached long after dark on your first day out on your way to the distant town. There may have been romance in the smell of wild mint in the hay.
But all romance ended when a little later in your expedition you were told by the line elevator man that he could pay you only fourteen cents per bushel for your load of oats. Those were the days of heavy and indiscriminate dockage, the days of iniquitous differences between street and track prices for wheat and all other kinds of grain. Those were the days when the grain company agent told you that the elevator was full, that he was sorry he could not take your good No. 2 C.W. oats, but if you liked to dump them he would pay you for No. 3 feed. So you slept in the livery barn instead of an hotel room and you spent the proceeds from your sale of grain on one pair of shoes and one sack of flour. When you rattled down Main street and out of town, as your team settled down into their stride for the forty-two mile journey home, you had lots of time to consider whether your No. 1 enemy was the grain company or the early frosts.
But out of such experiences were born great things. The farmers, who were helpless individually, began to organize; they began to come together. Grain growers associations
29087-6X1
The Address-Mr. Knight and various farm organizations sprang up. It is true that sometimes their leaders betrayed them, bought out by money or by positions of power, but the rank and file persevered. So we have the grain growers association, the united farmers, the wheat pools and other such organizations.
There was also some organization along political lines. There was the old U.F.A., there was the old Progressive party and its outcrop, the C.C.F. This movement to which I belong and for which I speak had its roots in the early agrarian injustices on the prairies. In its early years in Saskatchewan it drew and has since continued to draw its support from the farmers, organized and unorganized. Its agricultural platform is in line with the policy expressed by the great farm organizations. Compare it for yourself with the resolutions passed by the western agricultural conference and the Canadian federation of agriculture.
I have not the time to put on the record the complete agricultural plaform of this party, but I should like to refer to one or two of the highlights which were made public at the C.C.F. convention in Winnipeg last August when the agricultural platform was revised. These are:
1.	A system of guaranteed or forward prices so that a farmer will know, well ahead of seeding, what price he will receive.
2.	Enactment of a national marketing act and the creation of marketing boards with producer representation.
3.	Orderly world marketing by international agreement.
4.	Encouragement of the development of co-operatives.
5.	No more speculation in marketing of food
products.
G. Adoption of the ever-normal granary principle with the necessary storage facilities to carry it out.
7.	Elimination of monopolies in things like farm machinery, meat packing, and fertilizers.
8.	A program of crop insurance.
9.	A system of long-term credits.
10.	Extension of P.F.R.A. to all Canada, with extensive irrigation projects.
11.	For international trade we would set up import-export trade boards responsible to parliament, to make international agreements in the sale of grain and livestock products.
These and other measures are designed to ensure to the farmer his fair share of the national income. There are those who, this last year or two, have been wont to look askance at the prosperity of the man on the prairie farm. Why in the world should he not be prosperous? It will take a deal of prosperity to make up for all those lean, hard years. And in attempting to show the so-called prosperity of the farmer, government supporters have been unfairly comparing recent years with the base year 1935, when prices were extremely low. If you compare the present set-up with the years from 1925 to

The Address-Mr. Knight 1929 you will get an entirely different picture. I would point out, also, that millions of the dollars which are supposed to have gone into the pockets of the prairie farmers actually landed in the pockets of the farmers of the farmers, meaning the mortgage companies whose headquarters for the most part are in these central provinces, and whose funds are taxed for the benefit of these provinces rather than the benefit of the provinces in which that money was made. I say a great deal of this money was used in paying up principal and interest owed by the farmers, which had been accumulating for a good many years, and it was the mortgage companies rather than the farmers who got that cash.
I do not say the farmers are poorly off. A few of them have established bank accounts, but thousands are carrying on in a much smaller way out there on the marginal lands, out along the edge of the bush, in dried-out country and so on. They are living precariously enough. I am thinking of a group in my own constituency, from Beaver Creek on down south and west. They have been burned out year after year. Last year they had a terrific plague of grasshoppers, and the prospect is that this year the grasshoppers will be even worse. When people are in this position for a number of years they have very little capital left, and that capital disappears in a depression. So they are never able to re-equip their farms because of the high prices they must pay for their needs, notably, of course, for farm machinery.
That these prices have been allowed to rise is to some extent the responsibility of this government, and this has taken away from the farmers the satisfaction generally felt because of the wheat agreements which guaranteed a reasonably fair price per bushel. I might interject that a fair price per bushel is not a great deal of good if you have not the bushels of wheat to sell. I can never forget that this government gave in to the machinery companies. As a matter of fact the action of the government in allowing a 12 J per cent increase in prices of farm machinery began this merry-go-round of inflation in which we are caught up today, which has resulted in further increases in the prices of all commodities and brought about inflation generally.
There are those who would take advantage of this situation. One such, may I say, is the Winnipeg grain exchange; and I would warn my friends of the Conservative party that they are generally coming to be regarded as belonging to that same group. The private grain trade is trying to wean the farmer away from his own organizations. Have you noticed these little farm organiza-


tions which are being mysteriously formed around Winnipeg? They seem to have funds for unlimited pamphlets with which they deluge farmers in other parts of the country, lauding the private system of marketing grain and trying to drive a wedge between the farmer and the organizations he has created. The private grain trade is trying to wean the farmer away from the pools and from wheat board principles, back to the open market, back to the grain exchange where the gamblers can make a killing when times are good and where they can pass the whole problem over to the government when times are bad. I get these circulars every day and put them in my wastepaper basket, which I deem to be their proper destination. Some of these grain exchange firms are the same people who used to rob us in the early pioneer days which I have attempted to describe.
The export trade in agricultural products looks a bit uncertain at the moment. Were it not for United States payments for Canadian goods for European shipment, and were it not for the fact that we in this country have unfrozen the remainder of our loan to Britain, we would be in the midst of a slump at the present time. Don't forget that. Britain is showing signs of inability or unwillingness to keep on buying from us four or five times as much as we buy from her. She just has not the necessary dollars. I think it is a sad commentary on human ingenuity that we should have a surplus of primary products and still be unable to do business with those who very much desire those products and who have a surplus of the things we need. It is time to investigate this matter, and do away with any restraints on such trade. Britain has been forced into the arms of Poland, Denmark and other countries which will accept her goods, and we should try to retain those European markets.
But you may say we can sell in the United States market. Yes, we can for the moment, as long as the American people supply us with vast sums of money to pay for our Canadian goods to be sent to Europe, because they have not those products themselves in sufficient quantities to export. But let us not forget that the United States produces and exports much the same things we do as far as agricultural products go, and when times return to normal we shall find the United States our rival for the European market. I need not remind hon. members that the United States already has declared flax to be surplus, and that there is an agitation in that country at the present moment to have wheat declared surplus, in which event we would

be in rather a difficult position. I shall leave that for the time being.
Apart from the national program of our party which I have outlined, here are some of the things in which we in this group believe in relation to agriculture. We deplore the fact that hog production is decreasing. I had a long talk about that matter with officials of Intercontinental Pork Packers in my own city. I feel that at least one of the reasons for the reduction is the income tax farmers have to pay upon their receipts from the sale of hogs. We welcome the adoption of the basic herd idea, which we have so long advocated, in connection with income tax. We understand that the term "basic herd" is going to be defined to the satisfaction of the farmer; at least we have that promise from the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann). Then we want the wheat board to pay out promptly the participation payments due the farmers. There seems to be some misunderstanding throughout the country on this point. Like the P.F.A.A. payments, this is largely the farmers' own money that is being handed out. This is not government money. This is not the government or the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) declaring that these men shall receive certain moneys from this government. These men are receiving money which they have earned.


James Garfield Gardiner: Just one-third of prairie farm assistance.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: It is my belief that irrigation would permit an increased rural population. I shall say a word about that at a later time. Irrigation would encourage a revival of the livestock industry. It is our belief that an irrigation scheme of some proportions should be put into effect now, and I underline the word "now". Such a scheme should not be saved for use as Liberal propaganda on the eve of an election. The people will soon be seeing that water-map which was plastered all over the front page of the Star-Phoenix during the Rosthern by-election. I do not know whether or not it had any result.


James Garfield Gardiner: It was your speech that produced results.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: The minister makes a lot of speeches and I shall now make mine. We do urge that compensatory payments be made to the farmers who, during the war, took these lower prices in order to subsidize the bread production of this nation. If Great Britain is unwilling or unable to pay this extra amount, it should be a charge on the national treasury of Canada.
Looking at agriculture as a whole, I would say that the west is confronted with a tremendous problem in the form of the mech-
The Address-Mr. Knight anization of agriculture. The need for manpower is decreasing. This is a long-term problem but it is perhaps the greatest problem with which the west is faced. In other words, to carry on the industry of wheat farming, less and less manpower is necessary. The minister who enjoys interrupting me will remember that when he and I used to thresh with one of those big Reeves engines and a correspondingly large separator, twenty-six men were needed to do the work. Today, however, if conditions are good, an old man and a boy will produce the bread requirements of from three to six thousand people in one season. What is the significance of that in regard to these prairies?
Efficiency, judged by the cost per bushel, requires larger machinery. Larger machinery requires a larger acreage and may start the ambitious in pursuit of more land. Whether we know it or not, we are in the midst of an agrarian revolution which is changing the face of the country and changing life on the prairies. As I have said, I think this is the greatest agricultural problem with which this country is faced, except the problem of the destruction of our natural resources and the destruction of our top soil by wind and water erosion. The latter, of course, is largely our own fault.
A great country cannot be built without people. Cities become unnecessary if there are no people in the country to use the services they provide. If non-agricultural industries are to exist, there must be people to operate them and to use their products. I have not sufficient time at my disposal to discuss alternative remedies, but obviously one remedy is irrigation. With irrigation there would be more people on the land and the holdings would be smaller. Dairy and beef cattle industries would be possible in regions now barren or given over solely to grain growing.
This dominion government has not done much about irrigation except to talk about it. For the most part, the talking has been done by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). I have the greatest respect for the Minister of Agriculture, and I have said so both publicly and privately on occasion. There is only one subject on which I do not trust him, and that is elections. The minister always reminds me of David Harum, the famous horse trader. He was a man of great integrity and honesty in his private life, and a good fellow, just as the minister is, but in a horse trade he would take advantage of his own grandfather.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is the kind of speech you made up there that helped win us the seat.
966	HOUSE OF
The Address-Mr. Knight


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: This western irrigation is one trading horse that the minister has in his barn. He is a bit over in the knees through old age, but he gets rested up between elections and may make a brave enough show when the minister trots him out again before the next federal election. In tribute to the minister, may I say there is no man who can show off a horse better than he can. Let me warn you, however: if you buy him you will get no guarantees with him. You will have to buy him on the end of the halter and you will not even get close enough to him to look at his teeth.
At a meeting in the Technical school in Saskatoon before the 1945 election I heard the minister talk of the vast sums of money to be spent on irrigation. I sat in a front seat. The minister did not know me in those days, but I knew him. In spite of the talk, this section of the country is as dry as ever, and the only surface water I have seen there in the past few years was marked on a map which the minister or some of his friends prepared for the Rosthem by-election. This is the map which appeared on the front page of the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix. On this map the water was marked in black. I notice that several of those black patches had been conveniently moved up into the Rosthem constituency at that time. Owing to electoral redistribution, next year those black patches will be in the Saskatoon territory; but I doubt very much whether the duck population will be much increased thereby.
This irrigation problem is too important to be used as a political football. There is a danger that the people will look upon it as nothing more than that. If the minister keeps using this irrigation project as a political football, there is a danger that the old story of "Wolf, wolf" may be exemplified. To my way of thinking, this would be a tragedy. Irrespective of what party is in power, I think something will be done. If the project is sound from an engineering point of view, this government is to be censured for not carrying out its promises. The government party is the only party that has had an opportunity of doing anything, and it has failed.
One of the greatest problems facing the Canadian farmer today is the uncertainty of world markets for agricultural products. In his speech the other night, the minister covered up that uncertainty in a paean of self praise for the accomplishments in the past. Would it not be a fair question to ask, "What of the future?" As seeding time approaches, it is the answer to that question in which the farmer is interested.
An extension of the powers which the Agricultural Products Act gives the minister


is being requested. I hope to say a word about that at the proper time, so for the moment I will say I believe those powers should be renewed. Some marketing agency is necessary, but it should be an agency operated solely for the benefit of the producers. I do not think this present arrangement is the best possible one because it gives too much power to the minister and none at all to local or provincial growers groups.
We remember the coarse grains fiasco. We remember how the farmer and not the treasury subsidized the price of wheat to the millers. We look upon the dwindling contracts for farm products with the United Kingdom. We note that such contracts as there are in operation are for one year only. We remember that the wheat agreement with Britain ends in 1950. We have seen the decline in the price of rye, the declaration of a surplus of flax on the part of the United States; while, as I said a moment ago, there are mutterings in that country to the effect that wheat should be declared surplus too. Is it any wonder that the farmers, with this prospect in view, say "What of the future?"
The other day, in a burst of oratory at which he is so good, the minister said that he was no prophet. In view of the prospect, perhaps that is just as well. May I say that bursts of oratory seldom if ever settle any problem; and there is not necessarily logic in a loud voice.
The ability of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) as a debater is conceded. I do not like his style of debate. I know enough about debating-I mean in a theoretical way; I am not much good at it myself-to detect some of the minister's little tricks. Let me give hon. members an example. The minister sets out to disprove A. Instead, he proceeds to prove B, and at the end of half an hour everyone is so spellbound-I shall not be unkind enough to say "so weary"-that they just do not see the difference.


Mr. Irvine:: And he puts over C.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: Let me give a concrete
example. The other night he dealt with a statement made by some of the C.C.F. members of the house; he disagreed with the statement that the dollar had only the purchasing power of fifty-nine cents or sixty-two cents, or whatever it currently is. I do not know whether it is fifty-nine cents or sixty-two cents; it fluctuates here and there. He set out to disprove this statement but instead he proceeded to prove that the farmer, with less wheat, fewer chickens, less produce of various kinds, could buy more manufactured goods. But that is not the thing he is proving. He says not a word about the actual depreciation in money values, which was the ques-

tion propounded and the one which the minister was supposed to be debating.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member has not read the debate.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: I will challenge the minister here and now to apply his argument to the $30 fixed income which the old age pensioners receive or to the purchasing power, in terms of manufactured goods, of the $100 bond which we bought during the war.


James Garfield Gardiner: In my speech I said definitely that I was not discussing the question which the hon. member now says I was discussing.


Robert Ross (Roy) Knight: That these matters I have been discussing-agricultural production and marketing-are vital to the farm people in my territory is not open to question; that they have a definite bearing on the prosperity of the citizens of Saskatoon city itself is also indisputable, for our industry is based upon agricultural products. The uncertainty of the moment is being reflected in those industries.
I shall finish in a minute or two, Mr. Speaker, but I want to say this in order to prove the point that I have just made. There is in my constituency a great packing plant, Intercontinental Packers, which is working at only one-third of capacity. The Saskatchewan Producers' oil mill has ceased, temporarily at least, to extract oil from flax. When the great new flour mill opened the other day, Mr. Fisher, the manager, said that, owing to uncertainty in the markets and in the exchange situation, no export business was in sight. Thus it is that agriculture and industry are intermingled. The prosperity of one means prosperity for the other, and that material prosperity is in turn translated into terms of human well-being and happiness. If our whole Canadian economy is to be prosperous, the well-being of agriculture must be maintained.


Mr. Fernand Viau (Si. Boniface):: Like the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight), Mr. Speaker, I should like to make my remarks within the forty minutes allotted to each member of the House of Commons. If there is one thing which should be respected, I believe it is the constitution of this house. I noticed that last week the forty-minute rule was abused a number of times by some hon. members carrying on for periods varying from fifteen to twenty minutes over the allotted time.
First of all I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown\ who moved the address in reply to the speech from the throne. Everyone will have appreciated the words he used in describing the progress of this nation with regard to the
The Address-Mr. Viau development of the St. Lawrence waterway and the Atlantic pact, which will be signed within a short time by the democratic nations of the western hemisphere. By expressing himself so well in this house I feel that the hon. member has rendered a tribute to the riding which he represents.
(Translation):
Mr. Speaker, I should like also to tender my most sincere congratulations to the new member for Laval-Two Mountains (Mr. Demers) who had the honour of seconding the address in reply to the speech from the throne.
His speech showed his perfect knowledge of those economic problems which affect our nation. A specialist in agricultural science with a wealth of experience, he will I am sure take an active part in the debates of the house, and continue to prove worthy of the confidence his constituents placed in him last December, when they elected him as member for Laval-Two Mountains.
In the fall of 1947, at St. Boniface, we had the pleasure of meeting the Right Hon. Louis St. Laurent, then Minister of Justice, who was visiting for the first time the Manitoba electors. On that occasion, he was welcomed by his French-Canadian fellow citizens from that province, and a tribute was also paid to him in connection with his entry into a new political career in 1943, when he came here to succeed the late Ernest Lapointe.
In August last, the French Canadians, who support the greatest political party in the land, chose him to lead the Liberal party. In the following November he became Prime Minister of Canada, and I can assure him that he has the respect of all the citizens of western Canada, whether English or French speaking, or even of foreign extraction, and that naturally in the next general election such respect and confidence on their part will be shown by a support through which he will have many representatives from that part of the country on this side of the house, as was the case in 1945.
(Text):
I should also like to congratulate the government on the appointments of the two new ministers. One of these is the hon. member for Algoma East (Mr. Pearson), who left a secure position in order to assume the responsibility of Secretary of State for External Affairs. It is hardly necessary for me to mention that he had already, not only in this country but in other countries of the world, established a reputation as an able diplomat. I feel that his appointment to the cabinet is a matter on which the Prime Minis-

The Address-Mr. Viau ter of Canada is to be congratulated, and is proof of the wisdom of his counsel within the cabinet.
I should also like to pay a tribute to our former premier of Manitoba who has also, I may say sincerely, left a secure position in that province in order to assume the responsibility of Minister of Justice in the federal cabinet. His record as a statesman, particularly in the great struggle which had to be fought in this country to try to bring about a solution of our dominion-provincial difficulties, and his stand at the dominion-provincial conference, will never be forgotten. I was happy that he was able to come into this house to defend the stand which was taken not only by Manitoba but by the other six provinces in Canada in support of the federal government, and help to prove the way that the former premier of Ontario, with the help of the present premier of Quebec, scuttled that very important dominion-provincial conference.
I wish also to congratulate the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) on his appointment as leader of a great political party. I am one of those who are in favour of the maintenance of the great two-party system in this country. It is the only way to maintain a strong democratic way of life. The new leader of the opposition has proved himself aggressive in assuming his responsibilities in this House of Commons; but having heard of the new policies which they were going to present to the people of Canada after their great convention of last fall, I was greatly disappointed to find that the new leader of the opposition had abused his office in this parliament by taking up a great deal of time in making long speeches, in which he never once mentioned the wonderful policies of his party. He took time simply to defend the attitude that he had taken in the dominion-provincial conference when he was the premier of Ontario.
Furthermore, in his great speech the other day, he dealt with the important matter of communism. If that is to be the policy of his party it will have to be cleared up. I took his speech as a grave warning to indicate that if the Tory regime ever came into office in this country, those who seek employment and criticize the administration will find that the government then in office will reinstate a section of the Criminal Code which would label everyone who criticized the administration a communist.
As a member from western Canada, where I was raised and educated, where I have taken part in politics ever since I was quite young, and where I have been a close student of the history of my country, not only politically but

economically, I may say that there is one thing I have noted with sad regret. This applies not only to the government now in office but to all governments who have been in office since confederation. I refer to the lack of attention which has been given to our western provinces in so far as industry is concerned, or anything which affects their economy. We all know that Canada extends from the Atlantic to the Pacific, but if one makes a careful study of public accounts in this house every year he will realize the amount of expenditures which are made within the confines of Ontario and Quebec. It must be admitted that when the dominion government called together the all-important dominion-provincial conference support was received not from Ontario and Quebec but from the seven other provinces which do not receive the same benefits economically as do the two great provinces to which I have referred. The history of western Canada is a story of a long struggle. I have made a careful study of the arrival of the pioneers on the plains of the Red river. I have carefully studied the growth of the colony on the banks of the Red river and the Assiniboine, where the cities of St. Boniface and Winnipeg now stand. One of our greatest primary products in western Canada is wheat. Over a century ago all the trading was done by navigation on the Red river, starting from a point which is now situated in the state of Minnesota and continuing north to beyond St. Andrew's lodge. It is related in the notes of the Manitoba historical society, in an article written by a certain Mr. William Murdoch in the year 1884, that there was a possibility of having a navigation route on the Red river through lake Winnipeg, through the Nelson river and through Hudson bay to important markets in Europe. Why this has been neglected in the past I do not know; but I feel that if today this problem is given consideration by the government it can still be achieved and the transportation of our goods to foreign markets, not only wheat, but our lumber and many other primary products, could be carried out through that important navigation route which could be developed. Naturally the cost would be pretty high, but if one recalls the money which has been spent in the two great provinces of Ontario and Quebec to help the development of navigation, railroads and many other resources, he will see that the development of a route through the Red river, lake Winnipeg, the Nelson river and Hudson bay to the European markets would be a small item.
After all, one must not pay too great attention to the population of the western prairies at the present time. There are reasons why our population has gone down. All our indus-

tries are concentrated in the two large provinces in eastern Canada. It is easily understood that the government has done nothing to help the establishment of these industries in western Canada. I could give many examples. I shall refer to the withdrawal of the personnel of the administrative headquarters of the Trans-Canada Air Lines from Winnipeg to Montreal. On what ground is this change justified? We know that it is impossible to get a definite answer from the responsible minister of this government. It is said that although Trans-Canada Air Lines are publicly owned, the policies of the company are decided by a board of directors. That is quite all right, but this change will mean the removal from Winnipeg to Montreal of two or three hundred families, and that in spite of the fact that there is a housing shortage in Montreal. I do not want to burden the house this afternoon with any facts and figures, but I do wish to refer to the principle of the thing. The removal of the Trans-Canada Air Lines to Montreal is not justified, and I am sure that the government, either through the Department of Transport or through the Department of Trade and Commerce, will see that the decision of the board of directors of the Trans-Canada Air Lines is reconsidered.
Another important factor which concerns employment and the establishment of industries in western Canada is the refusal of the British government to buy flour from our western mills. We know that a great number of the small mills cannot compete with the large mills of eastern Canada. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba we have seen many small mills closed down. However, there is one in my own constituency-and I believe there are others-which has competed with the large mills of the east.
When this matter was brought to the attention of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) by the hon. member for Humboldt (Mr. Burton), the minister answered that the export of flour was a matter relating to private enterprise and that it was no concern of the Department of Trade and Commerce. He pointed out that contracts being made by foreign firms with our industry in Canada were the concern only of those individuals. I am referring in this connection to the export of flour under the Anglo-Canadian wheat agreement.
At the present time it is impossible for anyone to operate in the face of the monopoly so well established in Canada by such men as Mr. Dunning and Mr. Short, who sit in Montreal, watching all the highways and byways connected with the export of flour, and who make sure that all contracts go through their 29087-62
The Address-Mr. Viau hands before reaching any western mills in western Canada.


Mr. Bryce:: Under a Liberal government.


Fernand Viau: That has nothing to do with the present Liberal government. I am speaking of those individuals who represent the British Socialist government. One of them is also a director of the eastern flour mills, who has helped make the arrangements to see that the monopoly in connection with the export of flour is kept within the hands of the Canadian millers association. That organization has no federal or provincial charter. It is a group of individuals who represent the five great milling companies of Canada, and who make sure that they monopolize the export of all flour from this country.


William Scottie Bryce: That is monopoly for you.


Fernand Viau: And the socialists are with it, also. This is a most important industry which could be established and maintained in western Canada. At the present time however nothing is being done to help it either in Manitoba or in Saskatchewan. With the help of the federal departments in Ottawa, including the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Trade and Commerce, the Department of Transport and the Department of Mines and Resources, I can visualize that in future years, through the development of our natural resources in western Canada, we will have in that section of the country a large population and an increase in industry.
The development of those resources will involve the shipping of our goods to foreign markets. That is why I ask the government to reconsider what was so well understood years ago by the pioneers on the western prairies when they referred to the opening of the Hudson bay route-and not by railways; we have at the present time from Winnipeg to Churchill, a railway which is a burden to the country. This would be a navigation route through the Red river, lake Winnipeg and Nelson river, and could be developed at a low cost, when compared with the value of goods which would be forwarded by the producers of western Canada over that route.
A century ago we read that 31,900 traveled by boat on the Red river, and a century ago only, 25 million pounds of freight daily were shipped through that route. It is true- although there is no chart to show it-that a century ago the Red river was narrow. I have read that there are now living in St. Boniface people who sixty years ago crossed it on horse back. It is related however that a few years later that river was 150 feet wide. The channel is there, and despite the cost of building a few dams and locks beyond lake Winni-
970	HOUSE OF
The Address-Mr. Case peg, to the estuary of the Nelson river, I believe the expenditure would be warranted to help in the development of western Canada. May I ask the government to give this matter its most careful consideration?
As I said earlier, I shall refrain from making a lengthy speech. I have felt however that as a western member I should bring these matters to the attention of the government. As a young man I can visualize the industrial growth of western Canada. As one who knows the history of our forefathers, who left security in eastern Canada to establish themselves in the west, I should hope that before leaving this world I might know that the government has seen fit to follow the plan which was desired centuries ago, and that the efforts of that past generation had not been in vain.


Mr. W. Garfield Case (Grey North):: Mr. Speaker, may I begin my remarks by suggesting to the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Viau) that he ought not to be too concerned about the length of the speeches delivered by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew). I noted his reference to the position taken by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson), formerly premier of Manitoba; and all I can say is that the matter of who broke up the dominion-provincial conference is certainly no concern of mine. It rested within the province of the administration to reassemble the conference. Indeed, had the fathers of confederation taken the position now taken by this administration we would never have had confederaton in Canada.
My first words would be those of congratulation to the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) and the hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains (Mr. Demers), the mover and the seconder of the address in reply. I happen to know very well the hon. member for Essex West, having spent a good deal of time in his company in connection with the committee on Indian affairs. While I felt he did his best to create an impression of admiration of the government's administration, he overlooked one thing in which I am sure we are all vitally interested.
The speech from the throne contains no reference to the introduction of a bill to amend the Indian Act. As a matter of fact, at the last session of parliament, a bill respecting Indians was introduced and received first reading. We are now wondering just what is going to happen. Rumour has it that the committee will not be called to complete its work. Yet in the sessions of the last three years members of that committee laboured long hours in an effort to correct a situation to a point which they felt would be in the best interests of the Indian population of this country.


It was my privilege to serve on a royal commission and to travel throughout the maritime provinces and part of Quebec taking evidence from the Indians on the reserves, with a view to making it possible to correct a situation which in our opinion was detrimental to the Indian population. If the rumours are true that the committee will not be set up, having regard to the fact that we have redrafted the Indian Act and that the bill has received first reading, then I say to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you to the hon. members of this House of Commons, that it will be nothing short of a public scandal.
The Indians of this country have made representations indicating their desire to have a greater voice in their own affairs. I recall the compliments that have been paid to these splendid people for their contribution during the first and second world wars. In the second great war, not only did their male members offer their services, the Indian girls came forward and offered themselves. One Indian reserve, Cape Croker, adjacent to my riding, showed an enlistment in relation to population larger than any other community in Canada.
I feel that we would indeed be remiss in our duty if we did not proceed with the work of the Indian affairs committee. It has been considered to be possibly the most important committee ever set up to deal with a problem which had not received the attention of the government for many long years. In fact, it is said that the Indian Act has not been properly revised since confederation.
The hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) is the House of Commons chairman of the committee, which is a joint committee of the House of Commons and the other place. I am sure that he must share my views that the work of the committee will go for naught if no further reference is made to it. It will be a terrible let-down for the Indian population of Canada if they are not now to receive the benefits of the deliberations of the committee which were aimed at placing them in a better position to help themselves.
The Indians are expecting this. I am sure they will be greatly alarmed when they learn that possibly what is the last session of the twentieth parliament is going to be allowed to pass without this important phase of our national life being dealt with. The committee was set up through the Department of Mines and Resources and witnesses were brought from points all over Canada. Deliberations continued during the past three sessions and during the parliamentary recesses. If the committee is not to be reinstituted it will mean that its work will be forgotten, because there will be no hope

of a similar committee being constituted until the next parliament. It would then mean going through the process again; it would mean the retaking of evidence and the drafting of another bill when one is all ready to be presented to this House of Commons.
I have had the opportunity of visiting Indians on their reserves and I know many of them. A great number of these Indians have made progress in spite of the handicaps they face. I plead with this house to give consideration to their problems and to reconstitute the Indian affairs committee. Let us get on with our work so that before this session ends we can present to this House of Commons a new Indian Act, an act already prepared, which can be approved by the house. We would thus show our regard for the problems which the Indians face today.
Having said that, let me proceed to other matters referred to in the speech from the throne. First, I should like to pay my compliments to the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent). He has been called upon to assume a most important office in the affairs of this nation. I should like to wish him good health and success as long as he is charged with that responsibility. Just how long he may be charged with that responsibility is very problematical. He is a fine type of Canadian and is possessed of a wealth of talent, but just how good his political judgment may be remains to be seen. The trend of the times would indicate that the Canadian people are not altogether satisfied and they are awaiting their opportunity to express their feelings.
I should like also to compliment an old friend of mine, the right hon. member for Glengarry (Mr. Mackenzie King). I can think back many years to a time when the chief stock in trade of the right hon. member was Senate reform. I submit that after his long years of service to this nation there is another opportunity for him to serve still further. I am not thinking now of the writing of his memoirs; rather I am conscious of the fact that the Liberal members in the upper chamber were in large measure appointed by himself. They were his colleagues and they know something of his ideas of reform in the other place.
I think it would be most fitting if the present administration were to obtain his consent to his appointment to the red chamber where, with his former colleagues, he could introduce that measure of Senate reform which he professed to admire in days gone by. As a matter of fact I would say that it would be to the king's taste. In any event, the opportunity is there to render further service.
20087-62J
The Address-Mr. Case
While we in this house appreciate the stabilizing influence of the experience of the older statesmen in the upper chamber, I think we realize that there is great need for reform. I believe most hon. members feel that it should be an elected chamber where possibly one-third of the members would come up for election at each federal election. In the ordinary course of events that would mean that they would be elected for from ten to fifteen years which would give them a certain sense of security but a greater appreciation of their responsibilities.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Would the hon. member recommend that all the leaders of the Conservative party during the past few years should be in the other place?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I would rather leave that to their own good judgment.


George Alexander Cruickshank: They would be as effective there as they are here.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I think in the not too distant future the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) will discover that appointments to the Senate will rest in hands other than those on his side of the chamber.
I should like also to pay my compliments to my very good friend the hon. member for Neepawa (Mr. Bracken). He has indeed rendered a service to this nation. He made a great contribution to this parliament, and I was one of those who deeply regretted that his condition of health forced him to retire from the leadership of the party. But the Progressive Conservative party has always been resourceful, like democracy, and it found a man to take his place. From a wealth of talent the party was able to select a man who in my opinion will make a tremendous contribution to the national welfare. I am impressed indeed with his background and his experience at all levels of government. As a very young man he was an alderman of his native city of Guelph, and later mayor of that city. A little later he was leader of the opposition in Ontario; and at the first opportunity which presented itself, when an appeal was made to the intelligent electors of that province, he became premier. That was not just by chance, either, because they confirmed his administration on two subsequent occasions. So when we were seeking a leader we invited the hon. gentleman to accept that responsibility; and he has acquitted himself in this house with distinction to himself and with credit to his party. He has had perhaps a unique opportunity to gain experience denied to many of us; and when the present administration finds the courage to go to the country we are confident that he will be charged with the responsibility of carrying on government in this country.

The Address-Mr. Case


George Alexander Cruickshank: Wishful thinking.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: It may be wishful thinking. The man who whistles in the dark is only trying to convince himself that there are no dangers abroad, so when I hear my hon. friend interrupt I know that he too feels the skids are under the present administration and that before long we will have in Canada a new government, which after all will be good not only for the country but also for the Liberal party. This government has grown old and weary and is still suffering from the war complex, and thus acting contrary to the best tenets of Liberalism.
It is my privilege to represent part of the great county of Grey, which has a tremendous stake in the future of this nation. Our people are resourceful. Our farmers are among the most progressive in Canada. As a matter of fact-though I say this at the risk of being interrupted by my own colleagues- we lead all counties in the province of Ontario in the production of livestock. In the city of Owen Sound we have had a large industrial development. The city is growing at a substantial rate; and following the remarks the other evening of the hon. mem-oer for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) I want to say that we have one of the finest harbours on the upper great lakes. We do need a great deal of work done there, however, and I have been glad to enjoy the co-operation of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Fournier) in having some of that work done at the present time. I wish he would do more, because it means a great deal to our people.


Alphonse Fournier: The other day you told me you were satisfied.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Well, Mr. Speaker, after all, if you get part of what you ask for, you are inclined to say you are satisfied; but this world has made its greatest progress because of the people who were never satisfied. Through the efforts of the Owen Sound board of trade I believe improvements will be made over a period of years which will be of benefit not only to our own community but to shipping facilities on the great lakes generally.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Thanks to a Liberal government.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: You may say thanks to a Liberal government, but if the time ever comes when the government, charged with responsibility for the administration of this nation's affairs, fails to look after the public services in a riding just because the member happens to sit in opposition, then you will have a unitary system of government and there will be no democracy. So I say I appreciate that measure of co-operation I have received, and

I hope it will continue to be extended. I might refer also in passing to the town of Meaford, where we have one of the finest fishing fleets in that area. There the Department of Public Works put up a fine retaining wall in the inner harbour, which will be of great benefit to that fleet.
My concern, Mr. Speaker, is not for my own people alone but for the people of Canada. My riding comprises thirteen municipalities, of which four are urban and nine rural. At Shallow Lake, one of the urban municipalities, we have one of the finest fur farms in Canada. Mr. Percy Noble, the owner of this ranch, has made a great contribution to that industry by developing special breeds of mink and silver foxes. Then the harbour at Thornbury requires attention, and I hope some consideration may be given to it in the estimates which will be presented in this house before very long. There we have an apple district second to none in Ontario. Over three thousand acres are now planted in orchards; and in the town of Thornbury and the village of Clarksburg we have warehouses, cold storage plants and processing plants capable of taking care of these apples and processing them for sale throughout the country.


An hon. Member:: Including British Columbia?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Yes, including British Columbia. Now I want to speak in a little broader vein, inasmuch as I feel that the administration should be concerned with the conservation of the natural resources of our country. In our county there is the highest point in the province of Ontario, at Dundalk, which is 1,735 feet above sea level. Here is the great divide or great watershed, indeed; but during the course of time, with settlers coming in, the whole countryside has been denuded of forest. Open ditches have been dug to drain off the surface water from Grey county and the other adjacent counties into the Grand river.
In recognition of the sanitation problem of the cities of Galt and Brantford the federal authority, in association with other legislative bodies, built what is known as the Shand dam on the Grand river near Fergus, Ontario. This cost $2 million and the object of it was to catch the spring freshets and hold them in an artificial lake. As the season progressed, these waters could be released for sanitary purposes. The effort to achieve this has failed, inasmuch as the spring freshets have not yet filled the basin to the satisfaction of those concerned. It is now proposed to build a dam on the Conestoga river at a cost of approximately $4 million. I present this to the House of Commons because I feel that a survey should be made of the conservation

potentialities of this province of Ontario, as well as the other provinces of the dominion.
This great ridge I have mentioned should be reforested. By acquiring approximately 35,000 acres of land, reforestation could be carried out and, in due time, this great watershed would restore the natural flow to the Grand river, the Humber, the Credit and all the streams flowing north to Georgian bay. It would be a self-liquidating project and would pay substantial dividends on the money thus expended. I hope the time will come when this matter will be given most serious consideration by this house. It would mean a tremendous contribution to the welfare of agriculture in the counties of Grey, Bruce, Dufferin and the other counties lying on the south side of the great watershed.
I have been asked to make a reference to an irrigation development on the south Saskatchewan river. This is a considerable distance from my own riding, but realizing how much the general prosperity of the nation depends upon the prosperity of its various parts, I am only too happy to plead with this administration for the development of the irrigation scheme on the south Saskatchewan river. It has been represented to me that millions upon millions of dollars have been paid out in relief in that area. The average farm today is about 480 acres; but, with proper irrigation, farms would be reduced to about 100 acres with beneficial results to the community and the nation as a whole. I do hope that these will not be mere matters of election appeals, but that they will be matters which will receive the serious consideration of the dominion government and will be proceeded with at once. This would bring a sense of security to the farmers in that area of Saskatchewan who need the benefit of everything we can do for them.
I should like to say that in my view the C.C.F. socialist party would be better employed in making an appeal of this kind than in seeking to stimulate our interest in stepping up the amount of social security. After all, that is a very good thing, but the productive capacity of the nation is the sole security our people have.


Paul Joseph James Martin: That is what your own program, adopted at the national convention, recommends.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Our national convention program will stand on its own feet, and I am not going to review it at this time. If it contains anything which you feel is worth while, you bring it in and you can depend upon our supporting it.
Premier Douglas was very frank the other day, in my view, when he was reported as having said his government had reached the
The Address-Mr. Case limit of its social security program until more wealth can be produced. We do not need to be reminded that no government can give the people anything which the people themselves do not produce.
We find that events have brought about a decided change. Miss Agnes MacPhail, now a member of the legislature of the province of Ontario, says she is a social democrat, whatever that means. At any rate, it is a far cry from the days when she said the C.C.F. could mean, "Come, comrades, forward." As I review the events which have taken place and the deliberations of the C.C.F. socialist party's Winnipeg convention, in which they took fifteen minutes to consider and move a resolution to nationalize the banks and the Canadian Pacific Railway, I am amazed at their lack of judgment and their desire to take-


Rodney Young: I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member says-


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Golding):: Order. The hon. member should not be interrupted unless he permits a question.


Rodney Young: I am rising on a question of privilege. A misstatement has been made by the member. The resolution to nationalize the banks took up four hours in the C.C.F. convention, not half an hour or fifteen minutes.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Considering the type of people that would be discussing it, I would not care whether it took four hours or forty hours. I doubt if any one of them was trained in the art of finance or railroad management or anything else having to do with our national economy. As a matter of fact, since the days of the Regina convention, the C.C.F. has changed its position so often that C.C.F. no longer stands for what it used to stand, but now stands for Canada's comical fellows. This group is trying to discover some means of making an appeal to the people by appealing to prejudice, by setting class against class and by endeavouring to make the labour element discontented.


Mr. Matthews (Kootenay East):: The hon. member is appealing to prejudice right now.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: The real challenge to labour today is to share the responsibilities of management; the challenge to industry is to share the profit which labour created. As an illustration of the sharing of responsibility, I mention a bulletin issued regularly by Dofasco, Dominion Foundries and Steel Limited at Hamilton, in which you will find that profit-sharing by that firm resulted in the distribution of $699,000 amongst the workers in 1948. I am convinced you do not need legislation to improve the social security position of the people of Canada when you find

The Address-Mr. Case they are prepared to put their shoulder to the wheel to improve their own position.
To my friends on my left who are interrupting, the C.C.F. socialists, who have to all intents and purposes shaken off communism- I do not think the term communism should be applied to any respectable group in this house-I want to say that they have quite a long way to go yet before they are entirely free of their web, because you cannot accept communist money and deny communism. But that is what my C.C.F. friends are doing.


James Herbert Matthews: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I am asking the hon. member a question. Can he prove that any member of the C.C.F. has accepted communist money?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: All right.


James Herbert Matthews: I want an answer on the question of privilege.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I intend to speak on the question of privilege.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Golding):: Order. I understand that the hon. member for Kootenay East wishes to ask a question of the hon. member who has the floor. But, unless the hon. member who has the floor sits down, the hon. member for Kootenay East should not press his question.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I shall speak to the question of privilege. I shall answer my friend's question. It is a well-known fact that the labour anions of this country, the C.C.L. and the C.I.O., have in their ranks many communists. Many of them are led by communists. It is a well-known fact that those groups, by a simple majority vote, make a contribution to the welfare of the C.C.F. party as their political arm. So if my hon. friends are not receiving communist funds, let them deny that.


James Herbert Matthews: I still say
that we are not taking communist funds, and the hon. member knows it. That is a lie if ever there was one.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: My hon. friends are receiving
funds from the unions by simple majority vote. Can you separate the communist contribution paid to your party?


Rodney Young: Doesn't that make you mad?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: No, it does not make me mad.
I am glad to see my hon. friends getting a little help from somewhere, because they will need it before long.


Rodney Young: And we will use it.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: As the man who pays the piper calls the tune, the communists must expect the people they are paying to be their spokes-

men in this house and in the country. I say that with all kindness because I think my friends can shake this old man of the sea off their backs.


Mr. Nicholson:: Name one communist contributor to the C.C.F.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: How about the electrical
workers union, whose president, Mr. Jackson, was denied admittance to the United States?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: They have never given a
five-cent piece to the C.C.F.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I am only giving my friends
an opportunity to correct the error of their ways and get out from under this position into which they have worked themselves.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Golding):: Order.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I am pleased that we now have as the leader of our party a man of vision and one who has faith in the future of Canada. When I review the past, I think about the initiative displayed in the province of Ontario in putting into effect the first major mass immigration scheme by air in the world. That scheme resulted from the efforts of a man of vision and a man of courage. I think of the vast industrial developments that have taken place since he became premier of Ontario in 1943, when he hastened to open Ontario House. I think of the vast development of the province of Ontario. Having all these things in mind, I feel that our leader is the logical man to lead the Dominion of Canada to better days, to great expansion and great realization.
I now want to ask one question:	What of
the British empire?-because after all, we are part and parcel of the empire. I am greatly concerned when I read in a Canadian press dispatch from Bristol, England, dated November 1, 1948, a statement by a member of the British government, a responsible minister of the crown. I wish to say that I do not believe it is any of our business what type of government the people of England have; that is their own business. But we all have a great stake in the empire. The press dispatch to which I referred reads in part as follows:
Sir Stafford Cripps. Chancellor of the Exchequer, said Sunday he has not changed his opinion expressed in 1935 that it is "essential" to socialism that the British empire be liquidated.


Some hon. Members:: Hear, hear.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: My hon. friends of the C.C.F. say "hear, hear". I do not doubt that they would like to see the empire liquidated, but I for one would not because it offers to us the greatest sense of security we have. Even during the espionage trials, when Russia

stood on the threshold behind the iron curtain, if we had been just a single nation, we .could easily have been pushed around to our own detriment. I recall the tremendous contribution the British empire has made to the world in general. I think we should all pay a tribute, as did the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Bradette), to this gallant people who preferred to die on their feet rather than take orders on their knees, and who saved democracy and freedom throughout the civilized world.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the hon. member permit a question?


An hon. Member:: Sit down.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Time.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: Go ahead.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Did he approve the action of a man called Sauriol, whom the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) and the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) wanted interned during the war?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: The hon. member's knowledge of ancient history is greater than mine, and I do not intend to express an opinion about something of which I know nothing.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The hon. member does not want to know anything about it.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I might like to know something about it.


An hon. Member:: Time.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I want to deal for a few moments with the problem we face with respect to exorbitant taxation. I feel that it is an important question. I have here before me a resolution passed by the city council of Owen Sound appealing for grants in aid to assist them with their educational problems, hospitals and social services, because taxation has reached such a high level in the Dominion of Canada that they find it impossible to maintain their civic services and still retain among the citizens an interest in home ownership or in real, estate. After all, home owners are the backbone of the nation. I have a similar resolution from the Canadian School Trustees Association, also appealing for grants in aid to assist with educational and other problems.


George Alexander Cruickshank: What about my question?


Wilfrid Garfield Case: We feel that the time has come when the government should give consideration to easing the burden of taxation. On more than one occasion I appealed to the ministers of finance when they presented
The Address-Mr. Case their budgets. In the speech from the throne this year there is a reference to the budget. This reference is a departure from established practice, inasmuch as it indicates that in the budget there is likely to be some relief from taxation, and it results in furthering the confusion which we have been experiencing for some time. I believe that our hope, if we have faith in Canada, rests upon our ability to introduce greater efficiency into our governmental administrative branches and to cut taxation to the bone in order that we may encourage industry and agriculture to produce to their utmost.


Mr. Speaker:: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I must inform him that his time is exhausted.


Some hon. Members:: Go ahead.


An hon. Member:: No.


George Alexander Cruickshank: The hon. member should be able to complete this speech by telling us about Duplessis.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: If I have the consent of the house, Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. Members:: No.


Mr. Speaker:: May I take this occasion to ask hon. members to do their best to confine their remarks to the forty minutes which are allotted by the rules of the house. After all, hon. members may be deprived of half an hour of their dinner recess at night in order to permit speeches of more than forty minutes. That remark does not actually apply to the hon. member who has the floor, but I would ask hon. members to try to limit their speeches to the forty minutes allotted.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I will not abuse the privilege accorded to me, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, I was interrupted several times, and probably my time passed a little bit more quickly than I expected.


George Alexander Cruickshank: What about Sauriol?


Mr. Speaker:: Order.


Wilfrid Garfield Case: I shall simply conclude by saying this. The quicker the government of Canada gets out of business, allows our dollar to seek an honest level, and allows our Canadian businessmen and others to seek markets for our goods, the better it will be for this nation. We then shall enjoy a greater sense of freedom than we have experienced in the last number of years.


Mr. J. H. Blackmore (Lethbridge):: May I
say a word on behalf of Canadian agriculture? On February 23, 1949, the Canadian federation of agriculture submitted to the cabinet their annual presentation. There were several of the passages in the presentation which I

The Address-Mr. Blackmore
other ways, thereby taking it out of circulation. It left the United States with $60 billion worth of goods to sell for $40 billion, which was impossible. Out of that situation developed world war II, indirectly, a matter which I do not intend at the moment to discuss.
In the United States in 1935 they could have produced $135 billion worth of goods. That was enough to give every family in that country $4,400 per year. But only twenty-one persons out of every one hundred in the United States in 1935 were able to get the bare necessities of life, amounting to about $1,350 a year. There were seventy-nine people out of every one hundred in that country who were short of the necessities of life-in a nation able to produce such an abundance of goods. Numerous dislocations were the result of this condition. People were bewildered- and still are-both in Canada and in the United States.
World wars I and II seriously aggravated the situation because they produced further dislocations. For example, until 1914 Great Britain had financial supremacy of the world. That is, the world used British pounds for money. At that time it was easy to get British pounds; all a nation had to do was to produce goods and offer them to Britain for sale. Britain was open to buy almost any kind of primary product. This meant that almost any nation able to produce at all was able to secure British pounds.
As a result of world war I the United States took over financial supremacy of the world, making it necessary for people to get United States dollars with which to do business. It was not as easy to get United States dollars as to get British pounds, because the United States had a high tariff wall. She was able to produce virtually everything she needed.
Not nearly enough attention has been given to this important fact, one which has disturbed the whole economic system internationally, from the very foundation stone. A disturbance such as that cannot be adjusted without the deepest kind of readjustment.
That was the first problem. Then, after world war II, Great Britain was impoverished. Not only had she lost international financial supremacy, but she had almost entirely lost the ability to get the things she needed. The United States had grown into a prodigious financial and economic giant; so that it simply dominated every aspect of world affairs. That aggravated the situation still more. I say that, when we face a world in which such disturbances have taken place, we are simply fatuous if we imagine we can go on using the same system we used before world war I.
How is that going to affect Canada and most other nations of the world? They will

suffer from a shortage of American dollars What is the meaning of this in the United States and Canada? We are unable to sell our goods because the people such as Britain's who formerly bought our goods are no longer able to get the dollars with which to buy them. If we are going to survive, and if we are going to enable our neighbours to survive, we must make adjustments, because we alone are able to do it. We have the productive power.
Discussions in the house up to now have been largely about symptoms, never about causes. As I said a while ago, they have been about complaints rather than remedies. In this, my fourteenth year in the House of Commons, I almost despair when I think how little I have heard from hon. members indicating any desire whatsoever to approach these causes and do something about them. This year we are not even discussing plans; we are discussing largely red herrings and smokescreens. The leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) opened the session with an elaborate smokescreen which we have been trying for a long time to clear away. Then the other day we found the Liberal party, led by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), introducing a whole school of red herrings for us to chase about in the political pond. How in the world can a nation like Canada be adequately served by its members of parliament when they waste their time doing such nonsensical things? I suppose the next election will be fought on the question of whether George Drew or Mr. St. Laurem is the better fighter. Can you beat that for a platform? Yet that is just about what the platform will be. That is just about the issue.


An hon. Member:: What about social credit?


John Horne Blackmore: Social credit will be lied about and misrepresented by the Liberals and the Conservatives until the people will not have the slightest idea of the truth about social credit. I shall be dealing with that in a minute or two. Social credit has no access to the radio; social credit has no access to the press.


Charles Edward Johnston: Or to the slush fund.


John Horne Blackmore: Or to the slush fund, as the hon. member for Bow River so aptly observes. What will happen in regard to social credit will depend entirely upon how many people read these words of mine or similar words in Hansard. Those people will be able to think for themselves with regard to the two great parties in the house whose business it is to enlighten the people, but who are busying themselves beclouding the issues.

We need to ask ourselves as members a straightforward and frank question: Does this house meet to register complaints or to find solutions? Do members come here to rail against the performance of the government in power; or to offer constructive suggestions in a sincere co-operative endeavour to concentrate the abilities and energies of all men of good will, striving to sketch for ourselves the general outlines and nature of the kind of new world order desirable for a free people. When those inside the house and outside the house get down to answering that question frankly, if we face up honestly to the situation we shall do much better than we have done up to the present time in the present session.
Let me urge upon everyone the desperate seriousness of the times in which we live. We hear outbursts against the communists. You may as well deliver outbursts against the west wind or against one of these waves of cold weather that we have had. Of course if you do not do anything about the cause of communists, communism will come-it will come by default.
We of our generation must effect a change from the old world order of say thirty years ago or even earlier to a new world order suitable for tomorrow. Do we suppose that an acceptable new world order will create itself just because we need it urgently? Do men ever assume that a new type of machine, a new mowing machine or a new type of technological skill such as that having to do with plastics, will design, devise and construct itself? Have we left to chance the working out of new techniques of warfare? Certainly not. Why should we leave to accident the fabrication of effective new techniques of peacetime? One essential technique of peace must surely be our economic system. How can we content ourselves in leaving the needful changes in our economic system to drift? We must not so neglect our economic system.
Here is an example of the typical attitude to be found on the government benches. They held a Liberal convention of all Alberta in Calgary in February and our dashing young man-about-town, the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Winters), went out there full of exuberance and oratorical skill. This is what he said, and I quote from The Albertan of February 3, 1949, front page:
In Ottawa very few of us understand what the Social Credit party stands for, what it means or what it represents.
The minister did not say that any of them understood what social credit meant.


Charles Edward Johnston: There are only a few of them over there now.
The Address-Mr. BlacJcmore


John Horne Blackmore: Their failure to understand is certainly not due to any lack of effort on the part of the Social Credit party to explain nor to any lack of literature that would make perfectly clear the meaning of social credit.
I hereby invite the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply to study social credit.
At six o'clock the house took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The house resumed at seven-thirty o'clock.
John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Speaker, at six o'clock I was arguing that the only way it will be possible for the Canadian federation of agriculture to attain the objectives it set forth as desirable in its presentation to the cabinet on February 23 is by the implementation and use of social credit principles.
Social credit is based upon the proposition that the power of a government to create money representing surplus goods already on the markets and coming upon the markets can be utilized by a sovereign government as an important source of revenue.
The key to an understanding of social credit and its proposals is the understanding of money. I hereby invite the members of parliament to begin at once to study the important question of money. I hereby invite any member of the house to answer the following questions about money.
1.	Has Canada now sound money?
2.	If so, what makes a nation's money sound? Is it gold backing? Is it price control? Is it having money all borrowed into circulation? Is it having abundant production? Is it having much trade; or is it a combination of these, together with some other factors? We find a great many people running around the country sneering about "funny money." We are giving them a chance now to either put up or shut up.
3.	When is it likely to be harder to keep a nation's money sound, in peacetime or in wartime, and why?
4.	Was Canada's money sound before the Bank of Canada was established, and why?
5.	Before the Bank of Canada was formed, did the dominion treasury print a proportion of Canada's paper currency?
6.	Was a two-dollar bill printed by the dominion treasury before 1934 unsound? If not, why not; and if so, why so?
7.	Was the Finance Act of 1923 unsound, and why?
8.	Was the Finance Act of 1915 unsound,
and why?
9.	Did the dominion treasury in world war I create and use in the prosecution of the war $26 million of debt-free money? See the report

The Address-Mr. Blackmore of the royal commission on banking and currency in Canada, published in 1933.
10.	Were those dollars unsound or sound, and why?
11.	Did Great Britain, in world war I, create hundreds of millions of pounds of Bradburys, and with them win the war? See Dr. William A. Shaw, "Currency, Credit and the Exchanges."
12.	Were those pounds sound money or unsound money?
13.	If unsound, how did Britain win the war with them?
14.	If sound, was there any sufficient reason why Britain should have turned the redemption of those pounds over to the Bank of England?
15.	Were British sterling pounds sound international money prior to 1914?
16.	Were they sound before 1939?
17.	Why, in the case of questions 15 and 16?
When hon. members of this house, or any of them, get the answers to these questions they will know something about money. If the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Winters) will study these questions and get the answers, he will not go out to Calgary again and make inane remarks.
I particularly challenge five members of this house to answer those questions on the floor of this house. They are the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) and the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario (Mr. Macdonnell), who I understand poses as the financial expert of the Conservative party. I want to see just how much of the financial expert there is in him.
I defy any member of this house to show in this house that the social credit concept of money is fallacious in any respect. I defy any one of the five above mentioned gentlemen to accept my challenge of today, some time during the present session of parliament. If any one of the five indicated fails to accept this challenge or to meet this defiance, I will announce his failure by whatever means and in whatever place can be made available to me. That will be taken as clear evidence that the government and the opposition cannot possibly explain away social credit, and that is why they devote themselves so much to a lot of silly remarks about it, such as "rubber money" and all that kind of thing.
This challenge and this defiance are extended to include specifically the Montreal Star, the Montreal Gazette, the Toronto Telegram, the Toronto Daily Star and the Winnipeg Free Press, as well as each of the Alberta 
daily newspapers. Each of these organs has been loud in its denunciation of social credit. Here is a chance for them to put up.or shut up. They can answer in their editorials and send me the editorials. That is all I ask; I will carry on from there. This defiance also includes any other newspaper, person or agency that feels disposed to enter the fray.
This challenge and this defiance also include specifically the whole dominion Department of Finance, from the deputy minister, Dr. W. C. Clark, all the way down the list of his advisers and experts. Evidently the poison which has been affecting the whole attitude of the Liberal party in Canada concerning money has been emanating from that department. Here is a good chance for them to put up or shut up. They can advise members of the house, and those hon. members can report here.
As soon as this house determines the soundness of social credit's monetary proposals the Canadian nation will be in a position to give Canadian agriculture a real fair deal, for the first time in the history of the country.
No industry in Canada has been so disgracefully abused, so kicked about, so disregarded, so ignored and so maltreated as has the industry of agriculture. The time is long past and gone when that sort of thing should stop. Once the house takes a proper attitude on money we shall have a real chance of doing for the farmers what they asked in the four excerpts I read into Hansard.
We shall be in a position also to devise and construct a new order, acceptable to free men. We shall not be in danger of drifting into communism, which is the thing we are drifting into. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the Liberal government's method of dealing with the farmers in respect of income taxes smacks of communism to such an extent that I believe even the Russians would be ashamed to have that sort of thing happen to their farmers. That may sound like a wide and sweeping statement, but I can bring plenty of evidence to back it up, and before this session is over I shall probably do so. The thing that is important to bear in mind is that we do not need to wait until some party that has the name of communist comes into power. You can have a party with the good name Liberal or the respectable name Conservative still communistic in its thinking and in every act it performs.
I expect the replies of the five hon. members I have mentioned, and the sooner they get those replies in, the better because I am going to be reminding them quite regularly in this house of what I have said.
The simple fact is that we are just playing: with governing this country. The Liberals-

know perfectly well that under the present financial system they cannot govern the country as it should be governed. They know they cannot possibly distribute enough purchasing power, for example, to permit the children of this nation to have the milk they need. They know perfectly well they cannot give the old age pensioners anything like the amount they ought to have. They know they have cheated the veterans at every turn of the road. Already, they are beginning to take away part of the pensions that have been granted to the veterans, notwithstanding the conditions in which the veterans find themselves.
Just to illustrate how pathetically their policy is working out, even on the eve of an election, let me quote from an article which appeared in the Ottawa Citizen of February 26, 1949. This information comes from the milk foundation of Ottawa.
A survey recently made by the Department of National Health and Welfare reveals the startling fact that 27 out of every 100 of our school children are definitely undernourished. An additional 23 out of every 100 children revealed signs of probable malnutrition.
In Ottawa milk is now 18 cents a quart and every child is supposed to have a quart a day. Mr. Speaker, there is not a member on the Liberal side-in fact I will defy any member to question what I have to say-who can maintain that that illustrates good government. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) can come in here and scatter his red herrings, even though he knows this is the ghastly sort of thing that is being done in this Canada of ours, even in an election year. So, Mr. Speaker, I say you do not need to have a communist government in power to get communist government. We can get that, and we get it automatically, unless we take safe and sane measures to guarantee our way of life.
(Translation):


Mr. Lionel Bertrand (Terrebonne):: I do not
intend to speak at any length; I shall need but a few minutes to state my views and those of my constituents on some matters of a general character.
First I wish to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. The hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) has to his credit an experience and a parliamentary ability which do him great honour. As regards the hon. member for Laval-Two Mountains (Mr. Demers), he is already commanding the attention of his fellow members. As we represent neighbouring constituencies I was
The Address-Mr. L. Bertrand glad, in the December election, to give him my co-operation and I do not regret having done so.
I would not want to refrain from commenting on the retirement of the Right Hon. Mackenzie King and emphasizing his long years of service to Canada. His name and his work will go down in history. May I also, on behalf of my constituents, wish to the Right Hon. Louis St. Laurent the success he has every right to expect. His task is a heavy one, but God has endowed him with all the qualities necessary for its successful accomplishment. Besides, the way he has steered the ship of state since assuming the high position of prime minister ranks him among the most outstanding of our statesmen.
I represent a constituency in the southern part of which agriculture and industry are proudly competing for supremacy.
The central and northern parts are exclusively tourist areas. My constituency belongs to that wonderful district called Canada's Switzerland, which is renowned throughout the American continent. So I insist, as I did in 1948, upon the appointment of a minister of travel and I propose to bring up the same subject again when the dominion travel bureau estimates are brought down. I am in favour of the appointment of an ambassador to the Vatican. The world is troubled by constant threats of war and by spreading and increasing confusion. Above human frays and political disputes, His Holiness the Pope preaches peace and love among all peoples. Rome is a beacon in the storm and the Pope's utterances leave unconcerned neither Catholics, of whom he is the spiritual leader, nor the faithful of other religions who see in him one of the greatest figures in world diplomacy. His diplomacy originates from God and when he begs men to place God at the basis of their lives, when he asks nations not to forsake spiritual values, the only ones which really count, His Holiness is showing the world the only formula for true progress, for real security and enduring peace. About thirty countries are represented at the Vatican. Canada, a nation which now counts in the world organization, must also make it a point to have an ambassador to a state which is above all states, to a sovereign who has no army other than his moral strength but who can be, through this strength and with God's help, a powerful and unbiased counsellor to the whole world.
I am in favour of allowances to crippled and disabled persons. I hope the resolution which appears on the order paper will be
982	HOUSE OF
The Address-Mr. L. Bertrand discussed at the present session. The crippled or disabled persons are a neglected and forgotten class, and I suggest immediate consideration of a plan whereby the government alone could give the underprivileged the place in the sun to which they are entitled, should the provinces refuse to co-operate after being duly approached.
Along with the people of Terrebonne and all citizens who believe in God and respect human freedom, I reprove those who, in Hungary, plotted against Cardinal Mindszenty and other members of the clergy, organized their trial and shared in their conviction. I urge the government to keep on protesting to Hungary and again request the release of the distinguished prelate. And should nothing come of it, should Hungary resist the pressure from all the countries in the world, let the case be referred to the United.Nations. The world also has evidence that communism is resolved to control men's souls as well as their bodies. Every means then should be taken to check any outbreak or the progress of communism. Legislation alone will surely not stop the diabolical workings of this insidious doctrine. In addition to necessary legislation, let there be improved social security measures. Let us put an end to poverty, spread happiness, remove the causes of social injustice, provide employment. These are sure ways to destroy communism.
If the north Atlantic pact is to be a union of nations who wish to pool their power, for the ultimate purpose of ensuring peace, averting war, checking war-mongering and effectively fighting communism throughout the world, it will be the most opportune and practical action ever taken by democracy in our time. I believe, for my part, that every country which is a party to the pact must be at liberty to decide, when the conflict begins, if at all, the part it will take in it.
Mr. Speaker, I favour the adoption of a distinctively Canadian flag, which will owe nothing to France or Great Britain, or to any other nation in the world, and, being entirely Canadian, will become the rallying standard of a people which must shape its own destinies, as it is quite capable of doing.
There is another matter about which I particularly wish to express my opinion, which is that of all our people. I am speaking of a tax reduction, with special reference to income tax.


I very much admire the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), and I feel it unfortunate that his position has compelled him to accept the entire responsibility for the last few budgets, that responsibility being that of the whole government. I admire him very much, as I have said before, but I do not have quite the same feeling for some of the officials in his department, whose ability I do not doubt, but who, not being responsible to the people, are not quite close enough to them to understand them. They will perhaps say that taxes must remain high in order to conform to great principles of economics, but the public will no longer, in 1949, accept this view, which, though its soundness may be argued, no longer matches the needs or the wishes of the people. The Minister of Finance, himself a member of parliament, is acquainted with his constituents' wishes. I have confidence in him. What the people want is not merely to exist; it is to breathe, it is to live!
From 1941 to 1946 the Canadian people were so heavily taxed that it would have been foolhardy to increase the taxes. In wartime sacrifices were necessary in order to win the war and to save democracy. Taxes were deducted at the source. The lowest of wages were taxed, compulsory savings were set up, and the people accepted that taxation burden. They were told that at war's end everything would revert to normal; already they could visualize all the comforts that would be theirs after the war, the long happy carefree days of peace and contentment. During the war, from one session to the other, the iron-collar was tightened, but the people were willing to pay to win the war, even if they grumbled about the gifts and grants to Great Britain which, incidentally professes her love for us when she is in a spot but too often even lacks the decency to show us a mite of gratitude when it comes to preferential treatment in matters of trade.
The war is over. But the income tax has not been substantially reduced compared to the fantastic increase in the cost of living. The average taxpayer, the ordinary worker, the man who lives on a pension do not live nowadays, they simply exist. And what amazes me most is the publicity given to our surpluses. In December the press announced in bold headlines a surplus of $900 million for the first nine months of the fiscal year.

That is a lot of money, and I am glad Seraphin is not living today.
Experts may have the best reasons in the world for wanting to set up reserves, reduce the national debt and ensure financial stability in this country but let us not forget that the people in turn have reasons for wanting, after eight years of efforts and true co-operation, to be treated with a consideration which would really please them. I was moved recently when a worker told me, in his own rough but truly sincere language: "All we have been served these last few years in the way of tax reductions are sandwiches, while we wanted a full meal". These hopes for a sizeable income tax reduction are shared by thousands of employees and they are legitimate hopes which, if left unfulfilled, will be a source of acute disappointment. There are thousands of industrial workers in my constituency and all share the same views. This government must keep the confidence of the people. A sizeable income tax reduction would be in order now that general business conditions are becoming normal again and that the country has carried out its post-war responsibilities. The Liberal party is the party which, according to public opinion, best embodies the yearnings of the Canadian people and that is why, during the course of this session, it should grant the demands of the people in general. Let there be luxury taxes; that is all right, but homes and families should not be taxed further. Let us do away with the tax on soft drinks. It might be alleged that soft drinks are harmful to health but nevertheless, even if that dubious allegation is accepted as true, soft drinks are the beverage of the low-income families. Let the government abolish the tax on the chocolate bar, which is the favourite candy of most families. Let them raise to $2,400 and even to a higher figure the basic income tax exemption, which will enable low-income families to live in greater comfort. Let them also grant a special concession to the young men and women attending colleges or universities. Many talents remain undeveloped through the scantiness of family resources. In short, let the government forget the small taxpayer and concentrate on the one with ample means. Wage earners can hide nothing; the deduction at the source even deprives them of the satisfaction of handling the money they earn, and of putting it to good use during the year. On the other hand, wealthy people can mention a lot of expenditures, they can conceal securities, do transactions, resort to speculation, and so on. Two weeks ago the newspapers reported the case of a business man who, it was said, had eluded payment of taxes amounting to a few million dollars. Let the department
The Address-Mr. L. Bertrand of income tax concentrate on powerful companies which are playing hide and seek with it. What it will thus recover from them will more than compensate for the small sums it would obtain from a multitude of people in the normal everyday welfare of whom pennies play an indispensable part.
The Liberal party has always been recognized as the only protector of the people, which the Progressive Conservative party cannot boast of being, for it always has been known as the protector of big interests and large businesses. The Liberal party has to its credit popular achievements which cannot be denied. In the realm of social security, for example, has it not led the way? What changes have gone on in that field since the day when, in 1927, it brought down the Old Age Pensions Act! All the provinces did not accept it at once, but not one of them would do away with it today, even for the sake of autonomy. Even those provinces for whom autonomy is the theme of the hour would be much embarrassed if Ottawa did not pay 75 per cent of the cost. Among the measures are one granting pensions to the blind and administered on the same basis as the Old Age Pensions Act, with the lion's share being paid by Ottawa; the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940, which I consider deficient in numerous respects, too slow in its application, too arbitrary in numerous cases where a decision should be based on circumstances alone, but nevertheless essential at certain times for the protection of the labourer temporarily out of work; the Family Allowances Act, 1945, so bitterly criticized by the present leader of the opposition and the upholders of autonomy at the time, but which the people consider as a refund wholly provided by Ottawa from the financial resources of the country and applied, without any political considerations whatsoever, to the full development of our young people. The latter, once grown up, will carry on the task of keeping the country big, strong and free. There is also the national health program still in its initial stage, and the grants to the provinces for the building of hospitals, for the prevention of all kinds of illnesses, which grants the provinces may accept without sacrificing any of their rights. And tomorrow we shall have disability insurance, destined to protect the workingman against the hazards and insecurity of life, to assure him, all day long, that should he become an invalid, his wife and children will not be destitute or dependent upon public relief. In short, the Liberal party has shown the way and made it easier. However, for the sake of the people's security, the Liberal

The Address-Mr. Harkness party must have the country's confidence. The people ask for a reduction of taxes. Circumstances and the financial position of the country warrant it. Let us comply with the people's wish!
That is my opinion. I should have been ungrateful to the people who proved their friendship for me in so many ways in 1940 and 1945 had I not spoken in their name as I did just now. A member should be the spokesman of his electors. What the people want is a good standard of living, wages that will provide for their family a normal cost of living, full employment, labour legislation to protect the workers, a little sunshine and security in their daily work. They also need to feel, deep down in their hearts, that in their daily work and in special circumstances, they can count on the co-operation, the support and the friendship of the government they elected. In Canada, I repeat that the Liberal party is considered the party of the people. Let it prove itself worthy of their confidence during the present session, and they will keep on supporting it.
(Text):


Mr. D. S. Harkness (Calgary East):: In my
remarks the only reference I shall make to the speech from the throne is this: I should like to congratulate the mover and the seconder of the address in reply. I am particularly pleased to congratulate the hon. member for Essex West (Mr. Brown) because I have been fairly closely associated with him for the past three years on the Indian affairs committee. This committee was engaged for that long period in trying to determine how a better deal could be provided for the aboriginal inhabitants of this country. The committee heard a mass of evidence from Indians, from departmental officials, from church representatives and from other people on what has been wrong with our past treatment of the Indians and our present treatment of them. We also heard evidence in connection with changes which should be made in the Indian Act, and the administration of that branch of the government to improve the situation. Perhaps the evidence which we heard was too voluminous to be well digested by the committee, but in any event we made a tentative revision of the act which it was thought would remove at least some of the injustices and disabilities under which our Indians are labouring.
My understanding was that this recommended revised act would be submitted to the law officers of the crown, who would remove the kinks in the wording, and things of that kind, during the parliamentary recess, and when parliament reconvened for this session the act as reworded would be submitted to the Indian affairs committee for final study and
LMr. Bertrand (Terrebonne.]

amendment, and then introduced in the house. Thus it was with considerable surprise that 1 heard the Minister of Mines and Resources, in reply to a question from the hon. member for Yorkton (Mr. Castleden), make the statement which appears at page 184 of Hansard of this year, and which reads as follows:
It has not yet been decided when the bill will be introduced. It may be that we shall reconstitute the committee and ask its members to make a final survey of the bill when it comes from the Department of Justice. This procedure may facilitate agreement between all parties when the bill is returned to parliament. However, this is just my thought and no official decision has been made.
I am surprised, first of all, that in the seven months of the parliamentary recess the law officers of the crown were not able to revise the draft act which was submitted to them. I am surprised that they have not yet finished this revision. As a matter of fact, I have heard rumours to the effect that they have not yet done any appreciable amount of work on it, if any. I have also heard rumours that the bill is not to be introduced this year. I sincerely trust that these rumours are false. I think the minister should immediately make a statement as to what are the government's intentions in this matter. That is necessary in order to quell the fears which have been raised that nothing is to be done. After the large amount of work which was done on revising the Indian Act by members of both houses of parliament, by departmental officials, by literally hundreds of Indians and by many other people, and after the high hopes which have been raised in connection with the matter, it would be deplorable if things were just allowed to drift on as they are, and nothing further was done in the matter before this parliament comes to an end.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I should like to warn the government that if that is the position which they intend to take it will have very bad effects from the political point of view. It is well known that Indians cannot vote. But in this country there are many thousands of people who are sincerely interested in the welfare of our Indian population, and if this matter is not brought to a conclusion during this session of parliament, the political effects will be serious for this government.
I should now like to turn to another subject. On Friday last the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Johnston) brought up in the house a matter which is of great importance in the city of Calgary, and which I think is a matter of national importance. I refer to the housing mess under the National Housing Act and the Bow River Construction Company project in Calgary. I believe it is of national importance because the mistakes made there, the injustices and the hardships

imposed on veterans, have also occurred, I believe, in other parts of Canada.
This particular housing project happens to be in my own constituency, and I was asked to look into the matter by a considerable number of the victims. The hon. member for Bow River has covered the situation very well and in considerable detail. I do not propose to repeat what he has said, but there are some points which I should like to emphasize. The people who got houses under this project bought what they were given to understand would be a completed house for a specific sum of money. The way in which it was done was as follows: They went to a real estate agent and paid to him the difference between the mortgage held by the Manufacturers Life and the sale price of the house. None of these purchasers had anything to do with the arrangements made between Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, the Manufacturers Life and the Bow River Construction Company. As a matter of fact, subsequently they were not even allowed to look at the plans and specifications and thus be able to determine for themselves whether the houses being built were actually being constructed according to the plans and specifications or not. These people were told by the real estate agents and so forth that the houses were being built under the National Housing Act, and that inspection of these houses to guarantee proper construction would be carried out by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and by the Manufacturers Life.
In other words, they were given to understand that all they had to do was to put up their money, and when the house was completed move into it; and since it was a government-sponsored project they had nothing to worry about. In the letters which I received from the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and in the conversations which I had with their local manager in Calgary and so on, the corporation always emphasized the fact that they had no legal responsibility for the deficiencies which have developed in these houses. Whether that is so or not I do not know, but if it is so then certainly there is a deficiency in the law which enables these corporations or the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the Manufacturers Life to deceive-I think that is the only word which can be used-the men who bought these houses, and to leave them in the lurch.
If the corporation and this government- the corporation, of course, is an agency of the government-have no legal responsibility, they certainly have a strong moral responsibility, and that moral responsibility they should assume. The only solution put for-
The Address-Mr. Harkness ward by the government and by the corporation is the one stated last week or the week before in the house by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Winters), namely, to increase the amount of the mortgage.
This is no solution at all. I should like to give an example in that connection. A young air force veteran, whom I know well, and who spent four or five years in the air force during the war, bought one of these houses. He is now told that the cost of putting it in a state of reasonable repair, so that it will be livable, will be about $3,500. At the present time he has an equity in the house of between $2,000 and $3,000. He said to me that if he assumed a further mortgage of $3,500 it would mean his entire equity would be wiped out, and in addition he would be several hundred dollars worse off than if he threw up the whole thing and went out to buy a new house.
Of course the catch in his going out and taking that course of action is that his money is gone, in this particular housing project. He is stuck. He can see that if he assumes this further mortgage of $3,500 he is not only paying for a dead horse, but he is paying interest on a dead horse, as well as several other charges. What can he do? He sits there, practically helpless; and many other people are in the same situation. Some are worse off and some not as bad, depending upon how much it will cost to put each house in reasonable condition.
Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation are responsible for the shameful condition of affairs existing. The reason they are responsible is that they selected and approved the contractor who carried out this housing project. This was a firm of contractors without the experience necessary to construct houses of any kind, a firm without any financial backing sufficient to make good any deficiencies which might develop.
I cannot see how the government and the corporation can get out from under that responsibility by any legal quibbling, or anything else of that nature. That being so, I call upon the government to appoint a special committee of the house to investigate the activities of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, with special reference to the Bow River construction project in Calgary. This committee should have power to recommend to the government the action to be taken to relieve the distress of these people who have been victimized in the project- and not only in this project but, I suggest, in others of a somewhat similar nature which will be discovered across Canada.
Furthermore, the committee should be appointed just as quickly as it can be done.
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The Address-Mr. Harkness The matter is urgent and for this reason: The hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Johnston) on Friday last said that foreclosure proceedings had already been taken against two of the holders of these houses. Then I found in a Calgary paper last week that several more have had foreclosure proceedings instituted against them. Apparently the plan of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the Manufacturers Life Insurance Company is to proceed against these people piecemeal, to close them out one at a time, and thus prevent what one might call a mass complaint at any one time.
Next I should like to say something about oil. This is an important subject upon which I have spoken in the house at every session since I have been here. I am sorry to say, however, the government does not seem to have become aware of its importance, and has not taken most of the steps to encourage the search for oil recommended by the Alberta Petroleum Association, now known as the Western Canada Petroleum Association, and by others who are familiar with the oil industry.
I should like again at this time to draw to the attention of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott), whilst he is engaged in the preparation of the budget, the recommendations I first made in the house on July 18, 1946, and have repeated at every session since that time. I shall not go into these recommendations in detail. They are concerned with the tax deduction for deep test wells, with increased depletion allowances for oil wells, with placing the present tax concessions on a permanent basis, and various other technical income tax matters. I have drawn all these matters to the attention of the minister so often in the past that I am sure he knows what they are. If he does not remember, then I suggest he refer to my speeches of July 18, 1946, and February 13, 1948.
The oil industry has received very little attention from the government; and in my opinion it is time they took at least some steps to encourage what is becoming in western Canada one of our most important industries. Since the trip to' Alberta in January of this year by the Minister of Finance I should hope that he would now have a better appreciation of the importance of the oil development taking place. As a result I should hope that he would be prepared to incorporate in the budget some of the suggestions made to encourage and to increase that development.
He was reported in the Calgary Herald of January 5 as saying:
Alberta's oil and cattle have contributed greatly to the bettering of Canada's position in regard to United States dollars.


In addition to improving our dollar position, oil production in Alberta has, by the production of new wealth, put a great deal of money into circulation in this country, and has provided a great deal of employment, not only for those directly engaged in the search for oil, but for workmen of all kinds engaged in producing materials used, and in building pipe lines and refineries.
I should like to give briefly something of the picture of what has been happening in the past year in Alberta in connection with the search for oil. In 1948 some 365 wells were completed, of which 133 were dry holes. That indicates of course that this is still a risky business, requiring large amounts of risk capital. The rapid increase in drilling which has taken place can best be illustrated perhaps by comparing the increase in drilling footage. Hundreds of thousands, and millions, do not mean much to most of us. So, instead of expressing this in terms of feet, I have reduced the figures to miles.
In 1946 wells were drilled aggregating a little more than 75 miles; in 1947 this was increased to just over 166 miles, or more than twice as much. In 1948 the wells drilled amounted to more than 322 miles, or almost twice as much as in the previous year, and four times the figure of 1946. In 1948 we produced in Alberta nearly 12 million barrels of oil, an increase of over 4,500,000 over 1947. The significant fact, which is often lost sight of, is that nearly half the 1948 production came from the old established field of Turner valley in my own constituency, which up until 1947 produced nearly all the oil recovered in Canada.
However, this picture is rapidly changing and last week Turner valley was responsible for just over one-quarter the oil produced. The amount of this production is now approximately 50,000 barrels a day, which is a new record in our oil production. The latest week for which I have figures for the various fields is the first week in February when production was approximately 46,000 barrels per day. As I indicated a minute ago, that has since been increased to 50,000 barrels a day. The 46,000 barrels per day was distributed among the various fields as follows:
barrels
Turner Valley	 13,000
Leduc-Woodbend	 25,000
Redwater	 5,000
Lloydminster	 1,100
Other fields combined	 1,900
Those are approximate figures to the nearest hundred. The consumption of oil in the prairie provinces is upwards of 45,000 barrels per day at the present time so that Alberta is able to supply all that market

and have some left over for eastern British Columbia and other places.
I should like to mention that pipe lines and refining facilities have not been equal to the great increase in production which has taken place. This is a condition generally-met with in the development of oil fields. Once production begins to increase rapidly, pipe lines and facilities for marketing are not equal to the production. We are just getting into that stage at the present time. When that happens the wells will have to be rationed and production will have to be cut down so that each well may gets its fair share of what market is available or of what [DOT]can be taken out.
The construction of pipe lines and refineries is going forward rapidly. A pipe line from Edmonton to Regina is now assured and Imperial Oil Limited are going ahead with construction this year. I understand it is to be 16 inches in diameter and will have a capacity of 100,000 barrels a day. With the present production of all Alberta fields being [DOT]only 50,000 barrels per day, it will be seen that it is anticipated that production is going to be increased materially.
As more wells are brought in I am sure the pipe line will be extended eastward to Winnipeg and the head of the lakes. The day is rapidly approaching when the oil fields of Alberta will be able to supply the entire [DOT]Canadian market. At the middle of February there were 105 wells being drilled in Alberta, exclusive of the Lloydminster field. I left that out because that field produces a very heavy type of crude oil which is suitable only for locomotive use, the making of asphalt and things like that. In addition the wells are mostly small producers.
Perhaps I should note that these wells are distributed throughout some 54 separate areas, and only a few of those 54 areas are proven fields. In other words, a large number of wells are what are known as wildcats, any one of which may bring in a new field. The rate at which new fields are being brought in is indicated by the fact that in the past two weeks five new fields were brought into production in Alberta by the bringing in of successful wildcat wells in each case. It is estimated that in 1949 some 450 wells will be drilled. If the ratio of success is as large as it was last year, the resulting production will be materially increased.
All of this gives some idea of what has been accomplished and of the enormous possibilities which exist. Oil men in Alberta believe that the oil resources of that province have merely been scratched up to the present time. The fact that successful wells have been
The Address-Mr. Harkness brought in in widely scattered areas would indicate a strong possibility, in fact I would say almost a certainty, that scores of new fields will be found in the intervening areas.
If you take a map of Alberta on which the present oil fields are indicated, you will see that there is a tremendous rectangle of territory on the edges of which oil fields have been discovered. Starting at the southeast corner, there are the oil wells at Pincher Creek. Then leaving there and going up along the line of the mountains you have the wells in the Turner valley, and then up beyond that again you have the wells at Leduc, south of Edmonton. Northwest of Edmonton there is the Barrhead field which was brought in just last week. Beyond that again are the McMurray tar sands, and then away to the north outside the province are the Fort Norman wells.
Coming back northeast of Edmonton you have the Redwater field and then going east to the Alberta-Saskatchewan boundary you have the Lloydminster field. From there you go south where you find another field that has been brought in at Hanna which is northeast of Calgary and southwest of Lloydminster. South of there again you have another field at Princess, and then down at the Montana border there are wells near Coutts. That gives a large rectangle of territory with oil fields around its edges. It is almost a certainty that the intervening area can be developed to produce a large amount of oil.
Some oil men are of the opinion that even more oil will eventually be discovered in Saskatchewan than has been discovered in Alberta. Of course little development is going on in that province because there is a C.C.F. government in power. Surveying and drilling expenditures in Alberta are running to about $4 million per month, but oil men are not going to spend money like that in a province where the government in power is likely to seize the fruits of their efforts. ,
In this connection I should like to say something about the benefits which the government and the people of Alberta have received from the policy which has been followed in the development of oil in the province. Nearly all the mineral rights in Alberta are owned by the crown in the right of the provincial government, which retains a twelve and a half per cent royalty on all oil produced from those lands. I would estimate that at the present time this gives Alberta a revenue in excess of $15,000 a day, which amount of course is increasing every week. In addition, however, the government retains a portion of every exploration lease
988	HOUSE OF COMMONS
The Address-Mr. Harkness granted an oil company, and that land, or rather the mineral rights on it, have become available to the government for sale. In the present month the Alberta government sold the mineral rights on two sections of this land in the Redwater field, that is 1,280 acres, for over $5 million. In the eleven months of the present fiscal year the government of Alberta has collected over $11 million from leases, royalties, rentals and other fees in connection with oil exploration and production.
This is only the beginning, Mr. Speaker. If this development continues, as it seems certain it will, I am convinced that soon the province will be in the happy position of having so much revenue from oil that it will be unnecessary to impose any taxes if it does not wish to do so. The way in which these oil revenues are mounting and are likely to mount is simply stupendous.
It has been said many times that Alberta has more resources than any other province in Canada, but the truth of this statement is only now becoming apparent. In that connection I should like to emphasize that oil is only one of the potential sources of enormous wealth. We also have tremendous quantities of natural gas; we have greater known coal reserves than all the rest of the dominion put together and, even more important, we have about the largest area of arable land, with a favourable rainfall for the continued production of farm products of all kinds, of any province in Canada. Up to the present we have had comparatively little manufacturing. That will come, however, and I think very rapidly. In my opinion Alberta is indeed the land of opportunity and will continue to be such as long as we keep the dead hand of socialism off it, with the stultifying effects that philosophy always produces.
I now turn to another subject: the protection of the population of Canada in the event of a third world war-an atomic war. This threat does not appear so ominous or imminent at the present time as it did some months ago; nevertheless it exists, and I believe the first duty of the Canadian government is to take whatever steps may be open to it to minimize the loss of life which would take place if such a war occurred. I am not referring so much to the purely military preparations we should make, and I hope are making to some extent. Rather I am referring to what in England during the last war were called passive defence measures for the civilian population against air attack.
The atomic bomb is primarily a weapon to be used against the cities and industrial areas of an enemy; and if a war should come between the western democracies and Russia

there is very little question but that this terrible weapon would be used against such targets in this country. I believe a large number of people have lulled themselves into a false sense of security in the belief that Russia does not have the so-called "secret" of the atomic bomb and will not discover it for a long time. From what I can learn by reading the published opinions of a considerable number of the best known nuclear physicists, there is no such thing as a "secret" of the atomic bomb; it just does not exist. The principles of nuclear fission were known to scientists in all countries of the world before the last war, and all that is necessary to produce an atomic bomb is a sufficient number of these scientists, with the large plant required, and sufficient time. As far as I can learn, any industrialized country can produce an atomic bomb if it has the scientists and is able to provide the money, plant and time. That is what we did during the war, and by "we" I mean the United States, Great Britain and Canada. From what I can learn, at the time the first atomic bombs were dropped on Japan the men who know most about this sort of thing estimated that it would take the Russians anywhere from three to ten years to produce atomic bombs in quantity, and most of those scientists believed it would take from five to six years. I would point out that nearly four years have passed already since the first atomic bombs were dropped, and the probability is that Russia will have a supply by 1950 or 1951, if indeed she does not have them now.
The question for us, then, is what steps we have taken or should take for the protection of the civilian population of this country. I believe the government should make a statement on this important matter without delay. For security reasons no one would expect the government to announce what military steps have been taken, but security considerations do not prevent the disclosure of what has been done and what is projected to minimize the effect of attacks on the civilian population.


George Alexander Cruickshank: If the hon. member will permit a question, would we have to consult the provinces on that matter?


Douglas Scott Harkness: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would welcome a serious interjection by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank), but unfortunately he never makes any. It is true that a start has been made in tackling this problem. As I understand it, General Worthington was appointed by the government to survey the situation and submit plans for passive defence measures for this country. In my opinion this should have been done long before it was, and some of these measures should have been undertaken already. It is

generally accepted, I think, that there is no effective defence against atomic bombs. Some are bound to reach their target, no matter what is done. The best method of minimizing their effect is the dispersal of our population and industries. Unfortunately our industries are not well dispersed; they are nearly all concentrated in the manufacturing centres of Ontario and Quebec. I suggest that one way in which this could be corrected would be by encouraging the establishment of new industries in the smaller cities and towns across Canada. This would have other good results, apart from giving us greater protection in case of an atomic war. A definite method for accomplishing that would be for the government to refuse loans from the Industrial Development bank to firms wishing to build in the present congested industrial areas, and to extend loans more freely to firms establishing elsewhere.
Pressure could also be put on other lending institutions to the same end. Another avenue open to the government to accomplish this dispersion of the population is to refuse to lend money for home building or to put up government-sponsored housing projects in the large centres of population. I refer particularly to Toronto and Montreal, since those places would have to be evacuated by a large percentage of the population if atomic attack ever came to this country. I can see no indication that the government's housing program is being conducted with any of these ideas in mind, and it is my contention that it should be.
Precautionary measures to meet the threat of atomic war are a long-term planning proposition, and government action of the sort I have spoken about should be undertaken at once. If atomic attack on Canada were imminent, a scheme of evacuation from all large cities to country towns and camps for all people not needed in the cities would be necessary. To make such a dispersion plan practical, existing accommodation in country areas needs to be surveyed. The stock piling of food, medical supplies and other necessaries must be arranged. Perhaps depots will have to be built for that purpose.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Golding):: I am
sorry, but I have to remind the hon. member that his time has expired.


Douglas Scott Harkness: I can finish in about one minute.


Some hon. Members:: Continue.


Douglas Scott Harkness: There is probably a need for a large number of tents to be distributed about the country for use as emergency shelters. These are just a few of the things involved in measures to protect the civilian
The Address-Mr. Bentley population of this country. I should like to be informed by this government as to what has been done along these lines, and what is planned. A workable set-up will take a long time to produce, and now is the time to be getting at it.


Thomas John Bentley: Mr. Speaker, at the outset I should like to follow the example of other speakers and congratulate the mover (Mr. Brown) and the seconder (Mr. Demers) on the excellence of their speeches in moving the address in reply to the speech from the throne. If I may, I should like to congratulate the leader of the opposition on his speech on that occasion and to say how much I enjoyed it. How gratifying it is to us in this corner to know the stand he has taken every time he has risen to his feet in the house. He is an excellent debater; we all have to admit that. He has a most marvellous memory; we have to admit that. He knows history so well that his memory gives him a splendid advantage, for he knows exactly what to leave out as well as what to put in. His regard for the truth is expansive and generous. He has a great avidity for power, but it will be a sad day for the people of Canada, especially in my part of Canada, if by some unfortunate circumstance he ever achieves the position of Prime Minister of this country.


Mr. Ross (Souris):: Too bad you won't be here with him.


Thomas John Bentley: My hon. friends have changed directions so often, Mr. Speaker, that one can almost believe they are different one time from another. No matter how much they change, however, they remain the same. They always expose their hole card in the finish, and it is usually a deuce.


Mr. Smith (Calgary West):: This time deuces are wild.


Thomas John Bentley: These deuces are always wild, and they never really amount to anything if you play the game according to Hoyle. It is only in a game where you make up the rules as you go along that they count.


Arthur Leroy Smith: Do you want to take that game on some time?


Thomas John Bentley: We have it on right now, and we will be prepared to meet you gentlemen on any kind of ground you want, any time you tell us the day.
The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) also entered the debate and proceeded to chastise the leader of the opposition. Many of the things I have said about the leader of the opposition could very well be applied to the Minister of Agriculture. His memory

The Address-Mr. Bentley is equally good; his regard for the truth is equal, and his ability to remember what to leave out is equal, to that of the leader of the opposition.
Away back in 1935, after the Tory government had been in power for five years, under pressure from the people of western Canada they came to the conclusion it would be better to do some of these things the western people were asking them to do. At that time, the government introduced the wheat board. The Liberals were the official opposition and opposed some of the most important features of the wheat board brought forward by the then Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Weir, who unfortunately came to an untimely death. He was a man highly regarded in western Canada.
We move along to the present and we find the positions reversed. The Liberals are in power and they are doing certain things through the wheat board. The opposition now comes from the Progressive Conservative party. Both of these parties have changed their views according to whether they were over there or over here on this side of the house.


An hon. Member:: With which position do you agree?


Thomas John Bentley: We will let you know before the session is over with which one we agree. At the present time, I am dealing with the manner in which these two parties can change direction when it suits political expediency to do so.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: You are waiting to see which way the wind blows.


Thomas John Bentley: No, I am not waiting for anything. I was indicating the inconsistency of the Progressive Conservative party. I usually refer to them as "Tories", but I understand they object to that, so that is another way in which they have changed. They have changed their name without any fundamental change of party policy.
Back in 1944, they were extremely loyal people, the Progressive Conservatives. They were extremely incensed by speeches made by a member of the Bloc Populaire, Jacques Sauriol. I do not know whether I have pronounced the name properly but I shall spell it if necessary. If one were to look at pages 5118-19, 5233, 5245, 5443-44 and 5514-16 of Hansard one would find-


Mr. Mitchell:: Of what year?


Thomas John Bentley: In 1944.


An hon. Member:: Telephone numbers?


Thomas John Bentley: You do not need them. You are presumed to have eyes and your statements are there. The late R. B. Hanson, then Conservative leader in the commons, demanded the internment of Mr. Sauriol. The member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefen-baker) and the member for Peel (Mr. Gray-don) took the same stand at that time. Yet this same man, whom they were condemning in 1944 for having said the English soldier was the rottenest in the world, is being folded to the bosom of these Tories down in the Nicolet-Yamaska constituency.


Gordon Graydon: Sour grapes.


Thomas John Bentley: No, it is not sour grapes. At no time has anyone in this party sought the support of anyone who showed disloyalty to this country.


James Arthur Ross: What about some of the 1939 speeches of your party-no men overseas.


Gordon Graydon: Helping the government again; your allies.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Golding):: Order. I would ask hon. members not to interrupt the member who has the floor.


Thomas John Bentley: I do not mind when the wits, the near wits, or the other kind of wits get going. Let them have fun. I just wanted to remind my hon. friends opposite who jeer, and my other friends over on this side of the house, that they are much the same.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Oh, no.


Thomas John Bentley: We are not at all misled by
these sham battles. The Progressive Conservatives and the Liberals believe in the same things. They believe in the right of the mightiest to be the victor. They believe that to the victor belong the spoils. There are no fundamental differences between the two parties. I would make an exception of one or two members of the Liberal party who, in my opinion, do not have that philosophy. But the administration of the affairs of this country under the Liberals has indicated that they have the same basic philosophy as have the members of the Progressive Conservative party.


Some hon. Members:: No, no.


An hon. Member:: Where have you been?


Thomas John Bentley: And when they try to tell us that the C.C.F. is giving its support to one party or the other, they are wrong.


Some hon. Members:: Oh, no.


Gordon Graydon: Just the other party.


Thomas John Bentley: It so happens that occasionally we find it necessary to make up our minds whether something is good or bad; and since I have been in this house, slightly better legislation has been proposed from the government benches than we would have had from the Tories if they had been in power. But any time my hon. friends of the Progressive Conservative party can get up in this House of Commons and offer something constructive-


Alistair McLeod Stewart: Do not ask
for the impossible.


Thomas John Bentley: -and not something ethereal, as the leader of the opposition does when he gets up and talks about his great desire for provincial rights, I shall be glad of it. In fact, in his speech the other night the leader of the opposition spent half of his time telling the government and the country how they should apply the iron heel to all the subversive elements. The remainder of it he spent in telling us that we should not apply the iron heel to anybody else in the country or apply any kind of control, or even have a federal government. I do not think the Progressive Conservatives know what they want any more than do the Liberals.
I will give you, Mr. Speaker, another illustration of the same kind of thing. All during the debate on Newfoundland we found that our friends the Progressive Conservatives were determined that the government should submit the matter to the provinces for consultation. What they intended to do after they consulted, I do not know. It is like consulting the boss for a raise in wages; and if he says no, you do not get it. Or it is like making love to a young lady; if she says no, it is all over.


James Joseph McCann: Sometimes.


Thomas John Bentley: They want the government to consult the provinces about that matter because they are so greatly concerned about the rights of provincial governments.


Arthur Leroy Smith: The hon. member had better consult St. Paul.


Thomas John Bentley: My hon. friends opposite, the Liberals, do not want to consult the provinces on this matter, because this was one occasion on which they wanted to have their own way without consultation of the provinces. But last year about this time when the government, through the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), introduced bill No. 135, to amend the Wheat Board Act, which measure would have the effect of bringing oats and barley, or oats or barley, under the operations of the wheat board, they wanted to consult the provinces about their own
The Address-Mr. Bentley legislation because they did not have what it took to put it into operation without that consultation.
I wish to say a little more about that matter, Mr. Speaker. On several occasions I have asked the present Minister of Justice to tell us the difference between Premier Garson of Manitoba and the law officers of the crown down here. He finally answered me by saying what is recorded in Hansard. I asked him if he intended to give a ruling now, as Minister of Justice, as to legislation passed when he was premier of the province. The minister replied in this way, as reported in Hansard of February 21 of this year, at page 723:
The minister has not been asked for a ruling as to the need for provincial legislation to make effective the amendments to the wheat board act passed at the last session of parliament.
Technically he is correct. Being a lawyer and a politician, he could not possibly overlook, I suppose, a little technicality and come out with an honest answer. But here is a letter that he wrote. While I admit the question is technically incorrect, the purpose of the question was there, and the minister knew it. On March 16, 1948, Premier Garson wrote a letter to Right Hon. C. D. Howe, Minister of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa, which reads in part as follows:
We would like to have a copy of the legal opinion upon which you base your view that provincial legislation complementary to your own is necessary. If the present dominion legislation controlling interprovincial and export trade in wheat be valid without complementary provincial legislation we find some difficulty in understanding why legislation controlling interprovincial and export trade in oats and barley and providing also for control of local marketing as ancillary to control of interprovincial and export trade, should not also be valid. We would like you to assure us that in passing complementary legislation we would not be invoking the provincial jurisdiction unnecessarily.
Why could he not have given me the answer to the question he asked of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, referring the Minister of Trade and Commerce to a legal opinion from the law officers of the Department of Justice? Yet when I asked him a simple question, he dodged the issue by saying that the question was never asked. I think the Minister of Justice should be a little bit more just when he is replying to questions from this side of the house, when we are seeking information.


Stuart Sinclair Garson: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say this. In view of the length of time that my hon. friend has been in the house, I am sure he must be well aware of the practice that the Department of Justice produces opinions only when it is asked for them by other departments. If

The Address-Mr. Bentley it is not asked, it does not produce the opinions. That is all the answer that question needs.


Thomas John Bentley: It is precisely the same answer as I received before.


Mr. Burton:: And just about as intelligent a one as we can expect.


Thomas John Bentley: I come to another little quotation. I wish the Minister of Trade and Commerce were in his seat, because these are words he used in conversation with a group of people who were greatly interested in this matter. He said:
I don't care whether we have the power to do this or not. I want to know through the legislatures whether all the farmers in western Canada are behind this.
I agree with the present Minister of Justice, that when he was Premier Garson of Manitoba he was correct that there was no occasion for any provincial enabling legislation, or whatever it is called. I refer to legislation that is supposed to be concurrent; I believe there is a particular word for it.


An hon. Member:: Ancillary.


Thomas John Bentley: "Ancillary" may be the word.
I believe, as he did at that time, and I think he still believes it, that it was not necessary, because there is the proof. They did not have the courage to put into effect the very bill for an amendment to the wheat board act that they brought in then, they have not had the courage to do so since, and there is no indication that they intend to do it in the near future.
In the speech from the throne the first sentence reads:
The first concern of government in world affairs is to ensure peace and security.
Those words indicate that the government have a sense of responsibility and a conscience. If that assumption is correct, I want to ask them if they honestly think they have done all they might have done to make the people of Canada feel peaceful and secure. Surely peace and security, like charity, should begin at home. Yet we have the farmers in a state of unrest. They do not know what their marketing conditions are to be. The government we have today have been utterly incapable of finding a way around this money block that is in the way of our trade policies. Lately they have had to rely entirely on money from ECA, and nobody has any assurance that it will continue to be forthcoming; and if it is not forthcoming what are we to do with wheat? How are we to sell our surplus wheat and other farm products and get something in return that we can use in our stores and other businesses to provide for us in Canada? As the Minister of Agri-


culture (Mr. Gardiner) is aware-he told us so when he spoke to the Canadian chamber of commerce early in the winter-the government know that they have not been capable of devising a way of arranging some kind of trade agreements. I know we have depended on ECA. I think that was wrong. Certainly they have left the agricultural people of this country in a very uncertain condition.
The workers are not feeling secure. They do not know what is going to happen. I know there was a big backlog of public works. When I came down here in 1945 we were told that that was going to take care of all contingencies that might arise. When unemployment appeared the government were going to take out their little blueprint, a road was to be built here, a public building there, and they were going to take up the slack. They have not done that, and the slack is showing up more and more all the time. There are a number of people unemployed not only in Vancouver, where they went to enjoy the pleasant weather, but right here in Ottawa. Today's press tells us how many there are drawing unemployment insurance in the city of Ottawa, and it also tells us how glad the city administration is because it does not have them on relief. They are very glad of unemployment insurance, but if they are drawing unemployment insurance they are unemployed and they are worried because some day the unemployment insurance will come to an end. Yet nothing has been hauled out of the pigeonhole by the Minister of Reconstruction and Supply (Mr. Winters), by the government, or by any department to take care of those people when their unemployment insurance has run out.
These workers are not feeling secure, and are not feeling at peace by a long way. The smaller businessmen throughout the villages and small towns of this country are not feeling peaceful and secure. They have their shelves stocked with high-priced goods which they are committed to pay for, if they have not already paid. They do not know whether they are going to be able to sell these goods at prices which will give them the necessary margin to keep their businesses going and give them something for the management and operation of their businesses and their investment. They are not feeling a bit good at the present time. They are feeling very insecure and very unpeaceful in our Canadian economy.
The veteran is not feeling very good, Mr. Speaker. Many, many veterans are worried and are feeling insecure at the present time, and this for various reasons. For instance, some of them have had to struggle very hard, and they have managed to get some kind of a domicile in the days when prices are high,

as they have been these last few years. They have managed to purchase their homes, or most of them have got them on time. Now they are wondering what will happen if there is deflation, or if a depression sets in. They are wondering how much of the investment they have in those houses is actually going to belong to them if a depression or a recession comes along. They are not feeling a bit secure. As a matter of fact they are feeling insecure. Many others have not got homes, and some of them are living in houses built by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. I stayed in one of these houses with a young veteran and his family this winter, Mr. Speaker.


Charles Edward Johnston: Did the roof fall in on you?


Thomas John Bentley: No, it did not. It is an ice house in the winter, but I am convinced it will be a flytrap in the summer. There is only one difference between these houses and a tent. On a windy day the tent walls will move a bit more than the walls of these houses.


Charles Edward Johnston: And the mortgage plaster.


Thomas John Bentley: Yes, and a variety of other things; and yet the price of these houses is above what used to be the price for a pretty reasonable and well built house in this country. If Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, their contractors and the administrators down here cannot find a way of doing a better job than that, they should get some more experts or get a bunch of old farmers or working people to give some real expert opinion on how the job should be done.
The old soldier settlers are not feeling very secure. For a number of years the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair) has been endeavouring to have the old soldier settlers granted free title to their lands. He has been supported by this group continuously and consistently, both in the house and when we had an opportunity on the veterans affairs committee, which used to sit here before the government decided not to call it together again. During these years it was always refused. The government knew that they had to give way, and they did give way, but they gave way in a manner of which they should not be proud. What are they doing today, Mr. Speaker? Instead of being generous, instead of saying to the public, "we are going to give a free title", they are going out there with their agents, with their travelers, and calling on the old soldier settlers and saying:	"Now, look, Mr. or Mrs."-if she happens to be the widow of a veteran soldier settler-"how much would you be able to give in cash right now and get a free title?" They are taking the last nickel 29087-63
The Address-Mr. Bentley that the soldier settler finds he is able to dig out of his pocket. That is not something of which the government should be proud. The government should have been more generous than that. It will cost them as much, or nearly as much, to get what they are going to get and then grant a free title on the individual basis, by that chiselling method, as it would have cost to wipe the whole thing off and give these people what they should have had at this time. But no; even though it will cost more they would rather do it in this way because they have not the courage to stand up and say, "We were wrong".
The chairman of the veterans committee was wrong in 1945 and in 1946. When he was chairman of the committee, Mr. Tucker opposed this, and the government did not want to do it. They opposed it in the house, and they have not the courage to stand up and say, "We were wrong; we should have done it at that time, but we will do the best we can now; we will make amends and give them free title at this time." They go out and try to square themselves by this petty little chiselling method that they are using at the present time.
Who is feeling happy and secure? Not the consumers of the country; they are not happy. They are not happy out in our part of the country, where they cannot buy the things that they would like to have because of the restriction on civilian goods coming from the United States. I know that restrictions have been lifted a little recently, but there are still many goods that you cannot get, which you would like to have, and which they would like to have, Mr. Speaker. Yet they see trainloads of military equipment coming up there. Surely to goodness, at this stage of the game, there should be some evening up. There should not be trainloads of military equipment moving in here while at the same time there are restrictions on necessary civilian goods. Certainly that military equipment does not make them feel secure, and not being able to get the things that they want does not make them feel that they are secure or even comfortable in their lives.
When I mention these things I mean that our people are not feeling secure or peaceful today; yet in His Excellency's words, which I presume were handed to him by his advisers, we find this:
The first concern of government in world affairs is to ensure peace and security.
If we are to have peace and security in world affairs we must have some demonstration that our government knows how to produce something along that line at home.

The Address-Mr. Bentley
The next paragraph in the speech from the throne, which struck me as a rather unfortunate statement, reads as follows:
Employment is at higher levels than ever before. In striking contrast with communist countries, the free economy of our country is demonstrating its ability to provide for all a high standard of living, social justice and individual freedom.
That is a pretty cheap comparison, Mr. Speaker. We have not had a shooting revolution in Canada for a hundred years. We live in the garden of Eden, not because of our own ability but because we were lucky enough to be born here or because some of our forefathers had the good fortune to come here. We have everything that a people can require; whereas those people in the communist countries have never had a free economy. They have had anything but freedom, and they do not rejoice in the riches and the natural resources that we have. Every one of these countries has been war-torn and battle-torn in the last few years, and yet the government has the effrontery to compare us with them. If we were not immeasurably better off than they are we should be highly ashamed of the way in which we have managed the riches that Canada has made available to us. If it is right to make a comparison of that kind, why not compare us with non-communist countries such as South Africa, and South America, or India, or European countries which are not communist. Are we not better off than all of them? And should we not be thankful we had no shooting war here? Should we not be thankful that, bad as it was, when we lost many of our young men from this country by death, and when others were disabled, there were not more of our civilian population hurt. Should we not be thankful, instead of bragging about it?
There is only one comparison we have a right to make in this country, and that is the comparison between what we are able to do and what we do. We are not doing all we are able to do in this country to make our own people more secure. It is stated in the speech from the throne that employment is at a higher level than ever before. That is correct. I believe it is at a higher level, generally speaking, with the exception perhaps of the most important war years. I am not quarreling with that statement. But that is poor comfort to the fellows who are not employed.
There should not be any unemployment in this country. Jobs should be going begging -and well-paid jobs, at that. There is plenty to do. There is an endless amount of work. There should never be any unemployment in Canada, in the foreseeable future, with the


amount of work necessary to be done here to develop our public and private enterprise.
There is no excuse for any unemployment in this country on the part of anyone who wants to work. I am not concerned about the fellow who does not want to work. I am like a great many other people; if anyone does not wish to earn a living, then I am not much concerned about him. He can go from door to door, or can live in a jungle, if he wishes. But for those willing to work and who cannot get a job, that is not good enough. We should not have any bragging. We should brag only when we can say that there is no unemployment, and not likely to be any unemployment in the foreseeable future.


George Alexander Cruickshank: We have to look out for Saskatchewan, you know.


Thomas John Bentley: No; you do not have to look out for Saskatchewan, at all. We keep them pretty busy out there. In Saskatchewan the only unemployment we have of any kind is among those engaged in types of business or trade wherein the products of the factories are shipped to the export market; and those products are not allowed to be shipped because of the type of exchange we must receive for them. For that reason about 200 people were laid off in a co-operative horsepacking plant in my city of Swift Current.
Why was that? Simply because the ECA funds have run out. Our horse meat was being purchased with American dollars. The people in the areas they administered were not able to buy the horse meat. No other country has Canadian dollars with which to buy it, and the result is that we have unemployment there. It is not because of anything the Saskatchewan government has done, but because of things the government of Ottawa has not done in the way of trade relations and monetary arrangements to make it possible.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Blame the horse meat on George Drew.


Thomas John Bentley: The Address-Mr. Dechene not administer them properly, could be changed by popular election at some time in the near future.
I want to mention the Marshall plan and ERP. We welcomed that when it was first announced because we thought it was a grand thing that the plentiful supply of goods on the North American continent should be made available in some form or other to our war-torn brothers and sisters across the seas. We expected great things would come from that, but they have not happened although we hope they will.
Canada has depended to too great an extent for her prosperity upon ERP and ECA moneys from the United States. We are big enough to have an ERP and ECA program of our own. There is no earthly reason why we could not have developed some plan to help those countries that needed help and then in ten, fifteen or twenty years take back from them the goods that we wanted. But we did not do it. Why? One reason was that the experts in the government apparently could not devise a way to do it. The second reason was that we did not dare to say to those people: When you can make enough jack-knives, motorcars, radios and so on, we will take them.
They were afraid of those people in this country who have enjoyed such tremendous protection that they now consider that what was granted as a privilege in the baby days of their industries is now a right that they should be permitted to enjoy for ever.
I see, Mr. Speaker, that you are getting ready to call me to order and I shall not strain your patience one bit. I do not see why we could not adopt the same principle that we adopted during the war, because this country is facing problems just as serious if not so acute as those faced during the war. During the war we drained off the surplus spending power of the people in order to prevent inflation and to prevent people from buying those things which were not available. That was done by means of tremendous publicity campaigns which let the people know that they were doing a patriotic duty and which told them why it was necessary for the welfare of Canada. The people responded and they invested their money.
The same thing could be done today by any government that had the courage to put on the same kind of campaign. Money could be raised to provide an ERP program of our own. I will not impose upon your patience any further, but I shall have more to say on the Progressive Conservative amendment and the main motion.


Mr. J. M. Dechene (Aihabaska):: Mr. Speaker, I appear on the scene in the role of a replacement and therefore I shall throw

myself on the generosity of hon. members, of which I have so often taken advantage. The majority of hon. members know that only recently I escaped from the scalpel of the surgeon and the drugs of the physician. When the opportunity presented itself for me to address this august assembly this evening, I did so because I felt that perhaps I had a message to convey to the members of parliament and through them to the people of Canada. This House of Commons is considered to be the forum of the people. No matter whether we have a great deal of ability, the message that we are able to deliver should be one of encouragement in these days when often the skies are clouded.
Before I refer to the clouds that I see upon the horizon; before I refer to the organization work which is being carried on so skilfully against what is left of the democratic peoples of this world; before I point out to the hon. members of this assembly who are here tonight, as well as to those who are present in other free parliaments, the danger of the situation until the north Atlantic security pact has been concluded; before I refer to the activities of the leader of communism in France, Thorez; before I refer to the activities of the communist leader in Italy, Togliatti; or to the activities of the communist leader in Great Britain, Pollitt; before I refer to the activities that have been carried on to create distrust of those who are still endeavouring to ensure peace and security for the Canadian people, I should like to discuss one other matter.
As I said, I consider that this is the forum of the people. I am going to ask the members of this house to listen to something of a local nature, something in the nature of an action d'eclat that happened in my own country but which unfortunately you will not find set out in the columns of the great metropolitan newspapers although it was referred to in the local press of the constituency of Athabaska.
Quite often over the radio and in the press we hear and read of great rescues that have been performed by airmen flying into the far north to bring out someone who is sick or to perform some other great task. We are used to that sort of thing in Athabaska and Edmonton. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that since the first days of aviation in the far north the people of Edmonton and the constituency which I represent were the first to organize expeditions of this character.
I remember years ago when Gorman and May of Edmonton, who originally came from Athabaska, flew members of the R.C.M.P. in a plane, an old flying box car, to the shores of

the Arctic ocean to capture a mad trapper who had murdered many people. No flier or aviator of today would dare to do what I am about to relate:	The incident I should like
to relate has to do with George Rault and another young returned man, Georges Ouimet, of Bonnyville, Alberta. These two men left by plane to look over the country north of Cold Lake where some fishing company was prepared to carry out fishing operations. They were considering the possibility of carrying the fish by airplane to the railhead. For some reason or other something happened to the airplane they were flying and they had to crash-land it some seventy-five miles away from the nearest hamlet or habitation, in country that is as rough as anything outside the Rocky mountains. Fortunately Rault, who was flying the machine, was able to pick out a place where the trees were not too thick and he managed to land. He was unfortunate enough to break his leg and a couple of ribs, while young Ouimet suffered a broken arm.
They had no food. Ouimet fixed up his partner as comfortably as he could, considering his broken leg and broken ribs, and built a little fire so well that when they got back six days later there were still some embers burning. He covered him with part of the wings and other things that he found in the bush in order to give him some shelter from the below-zero weather. He then started out to walk the seventy-five miles to Cold Lake to get help, and he did walk that seventy-five miles through the roughest kind of country. It was a long walk, over fallen timbers, up hill and down. He walked all the way to Cold Lake, which took him about 30 hours, and then he did not get treated until he reported to the police in my home town, Bonnyville, telling about the accident and asking for succour for his companion lying wounded out there in the bush.
I want also to pay tribute to those two constables of the mounted police who organized the rescue. I wrote to the Minister of Justice in regard to them, because they set to work at once to gather some men together, obtain what they thought would be necessary and start out to the rescue. By that time the arm of this young man Ouimet had been treated at the hospital, he had been given some food, and he was ready to go back to show them the trail as far as he could, which was about thirty miles. They took with them an old Indian named Piche, an old friend of mine; he has no vote but still is a friend of mine, and is one of the best trackers I ever knew. In the meantime five inches of snow had fallen. I hope those listening to me have some imagination, and can visualize what
The Address-Mr. Dechene that meant. In that country there were no habitations whatever; no trappers; nothing. Young Ouimet took them for twenty-five or thirty miles, until the trail ended. Everything was covered with snow, but Piche the tracker did a wonderful job, an incredible job, and picked up the trail. He found it and they followed it until they came upon the wounded man, forty miles into that bush. He was still alive and still cheerful. He had had nothing to eat or drink, yet he had a smile for his rescuers when they reached him. I do not know what kind of conveyance the mounted police constables and the men with them had, but they brought this young man all the way back without causing him any extra suffering at all; and after many hours of painful and laborious effort they got him to the hospital. Both these young men are alive and well today.
I mention this incident in this house, where so often we hear stories of despair and discouragement, as a lesson to the younger people of this country. I believe there is plenty of courage left in Canada. I believe there are plenty of real he-men in this country, and many of them in the constituency of Athabaska. I thought those concerned in this matter were entitled to this tribute, which would be spread across Canada if my voice could carry beyond the walls of this chamber.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I would not like to tell this house how old I am getting to be, but the other day I was reminding myself that it is forty-eight years since I undertook my first political activities in northern Alberta. At that time there was only one seat for the whole province, except the extreme eastern portion which formed part of Saskatchewan and Assiniboia. I worked on behalf of Hon. Frank Oliver, at that time just old Frank Oliver, a man who had gone to Edmonton and on to our country from Winnipeg in a Red River cart; and I was working for one of the greatest leaders this country has ever seen or heard of, Sir Wilfrid Laurier. After he passed from the scene, leaving memories which will be ever fresh in the hearts of the Canadian people, another great man came upon the scene. He is still with us, and I hope will be with us for a long time yet. I refer to his successor, the Right Hon. William Lyon Mackenzie King. I was proud to continue to serve humbly and to the best of my ability in the ranks of the Liberal party under his leadership. Then last summer this party, in a great convention, again chose a leader, and again chose a son of the old province of Quebec, to which my ancestors came in 1632. I do not say that to brag, but I really do belong in Canada. Now I am prouder than
9S8

The Address-Mr. Dechene ever that God has spared me enough strength to continue to serve; and I hope to be able to fight with him and for him when the next election is called, when I am sure he will win. I believe the right hon. the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) already has proved himself worthy of a place beside the other two great leaders who have preceded him.
I have said something, sir, about political history. Well, I have just heard a fine address by a fluent speaker. At one time I thought he would be sure to admit, in spite of all the faults he had to find with this government, that they have done pretty well for the farmers of western Canada. I have in mind the cheques that are going out in a few weeks for over $200 million, made possible by wise administration of the wheat grown by the farmers of the west. I am reminded of a little story from my days in the Alberta legislature, away back in the years when the Bennett buggy became prominent. Perhaps you know what a Bennett buggy was, Mr. Speaker; and I do not want to ever go back to that situation and have a Drew buggy or any other kind of buggy. Many farmers could not afford to run their cars; they had no money with which to buy gasoline. So they took the body off the axles, put a box on top and hitched the old horses to it. Then they had a nice light rig to get around in, and that is what they called a Bennett buggy. I remember sitting in the Alberta legislature and doing my best, with all the other members there, to find some remedy for the terrible conditions which existed in Alberta and throughout western Canada. At one time in my own town wheat went down to 19 cents a bushel for No. 2 northern. Farmers brought hogs from fifteen or twenty miles in the country and sold them for $1.75 a hundred.
I am speaking of wheat, however; and I was discussing that matter with a friend of mine. We were both much younger then than we are now, and we still had confidence that something would happen, that a Liberal government would come back into office and remedy the situation. We were always talking about wheat. Here in this house I often hear my hon. friends from Quebec, Ontario and the maritimes say they are a little fed up with all this talk about wheat, and they ask if we cannot ever talk about anything else. When I was talking with this friend of mine in Alberta we decided to tell the people what the wheat actually was that created all this talk, and I hope I can remember it; "Wheat is a cereal which is grown to keep the farmer broke and the buyer crazy. It is planted in the spring, mortgaged in the summer and lost in the fall. It varies in quality according to the rain and sunshine in the season; and the man who can best guess its


Mr. Wylie:: Shame on the Liberals!


Joseph Miville Dechene: If my hon. friend wants me to tell him something, Mr. Speaker, let him interrupt just once more and I shall tell him a story he will remember for a while. I am too serious at the moment to allow any interruptions. Of course, Social Crediters have become a part of the Tory party. We know that now, and you cannot deny it any longer. These men have become what Arthur Meighen would have described as the dilapidated annex of the Tory party.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I would sooner have that than communists, anyway.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I may tell my friend that now he is known as a Tory he will not receive nearly as many votes in Alberta as he
The Address-Mr. Dechene received when he was running under false pretences and hiding his colours until they apparently became more popular.
I was speaking in a serious vein because I have lived in Alberta for over half a century, nearly sixty years. I know what the trouble is. I understand that there is no philosophy, there is no preaching, that will reduce the distance between the Alberta farmer and the markets of the world unless we can use that shorter route through Churchill. We should also be allowed to import into our great western plain the things we need from Great Britain, France and the other countries, through the port of Churchill without paying tribute to anybody. This would make the economy of western Canada strong without the necessity of asking for aid from the people in the rest of Canada.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: Change the Liberal government.


Joseph Miville Dechene: Mr. Speaker, I have sat here during the last month listening patiently to some of the rottenest things I have ever heard in my life, to some of the most absurd speeches to which any man of my age could be compelled to listen. I never interrupted anyone. May I ask for a hearing, Mr. Speaker, since I am speaking only sparingly and I am trying to speak on behalf of the people who sent me here.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: On a question of privilege, Mr. Speaker, I have sat here longer than anyone in this end of the house, and I have heard the hon. member interrupt more than I have.


The Acting Speaker (Mr. Golding):: Order.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I have something more to say, and I do not want to be interrupted.


William Duncan McKay Wylie: I hope you have; you have not said anything yet.


Joseph Miville Dechene: Mr. Speaker, I think I have some time remaining and I hope to be allowed-


William Duncan McKay Wylie: You only think.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I hope the members of this house who do not understand the French language will bear with me while I address my compatriots in that tongue I love so well.
(Translation):
Through you, Mr. Speaker, I wish to tell Quebec members how happy I have been to make their acquaintance and to have enjoyed both their friendship and support for the past ten years I have had the pleasure of sitting in the house.
I noticed with delight, particularly in 1945, how many talented and promising young men joined the Liberal ranks to help their fellow citizens to continue representing old Quebec in the house. May I, in turn, speak a word of friendship and good will and ask them to

The Address-Mr. Dechene remember, on occasion-they who represent a majority in their venerable province-that where I come from, we are a minority community that will not despair and often needs their help. That is why we hope that, gradually, they will give us even more assistance than they have kindly done in the past and send us their surplus population who wish to leave their great province to strengthen the ranks of their own folk in Alberta and Saskatchewan where French Canadians will not say die.
(Text):
I show you, Mr. Speaker, the picture of a fine looking young fellow which appeared in the Edmonton Journal of March, 1924, twenty-five years ago. It is a picture of yours truly in his prime-and it was some prime, if I do say it myself-telling the people of Alberta that there was oil under their feet and asking the government to take measures to encourage that development to the extent of making grants, if necessary, to produce this wealth, greater than all the gold that may ever be found in the hills of northern Canada. Today it has been found. Leduc is producing thousands of barrels of oil, as is Redwater, which is at the boundary of Athabaska. I know we have only tapped the fringe of the great lake of oil which lies under the province of Alberta.


Mr. Hansell:: It has a social credit government.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I take pride in the developments because I was the prophet of something that actually happened, and am still alive to see my prophecy come true. I will predict something more. I will say that, as exploration is pushed farther north, right in the centre of the great constituency of Athabaska will be found the largest pool of oil. I am not speaking for political gain, Mr. Speaker. I am afraid I may be too old to offer myself again to the people.


An hon. Member:: Oh, no; you are wrong.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I wish to speak on behalf of my constituents. In those days I advocated returning the mineral rights to the owners of the surface. I demanded that our government return the ownership of the minerals to those who own the surface. Last year I mentioned this matter in this house. I know those rights now belong to the province of Alberta. I mention this because this government is doing as much as it can in that line by giving to the returned soldiers, to the 
veterans who have purchased land on which to settle, the rights of which the government has ownership. The Department of Veterans Affairs is now engaged in looking at those mineral rights, and those rights are to be turned over to the settlers.
What happened in Redwater the other day? Some government parcels of land, or rather mineral rights, were sold for over $5 million and the farmers of the district will not get fifty cents. They may get a bridge or a road.


Mr. Low:: That is not true. I am sure the hon. member for Athabaska would want to be correct. The farmers get an adjustment when they make their appeal to the arbitration board.


Joseph Miville Dechene: We are not talking about the same thing at all, Mr. Speaker. I say that if the farmers had the ownership of the mineral rights, the millions of dollars which are now being paid to the Imperial Oil, Standard Oil and the other large companies would be paid to these farmers and there would be a wealthy yeomanry in Alberta. As I said before, I know that there is a great lake of oil in that north country. Almost every farmer in Athabaska would be a wealthy man within a few years.
I wanted to speak about the tar sands in the northern part of Athabaska at Fort McMurray and Waterways. I shall have to go a little bit faster, Mr. Speaker.


Ernest George Hansell: There is plenty of time.


Joseph Miville Dechene: I have often spoken in this
house about these tar sands. The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) is in his place tonight. He saw the possibilities of these resources. Last year I told the house that the geologists from the Department of Mines and Resources two years ago had found a new field some distance from Abasand and the other places that were known before; it is some eighteen miles west of Fort McMurray, and Waterways, across the Athabaska river. The plans are here on file, and they can be seen. You can see where the pipes were sunk and discovery was made of the immense possibilities which we knew of but did not think were so valuable or easy of access. In some places were found hundreds of feet of clear bitumen, enough to pave the streets of all the cities in western Canada and also in eastern Canada, if transportation to bring it in is made cheaper. This discovery forms part of the grant by the provincial government of Alberta to some oil companies of some four million acres of land in northern Alberta, the greater portion of it in the riding of Athabaska.
I have no quarrel with this grant. But as a resident of Athabaska for all these years,

as a man who has fought to develop this oil, as a man who has fought for the return of the rights to the farmers so that they could benefit by the wealth under their feet rather than have it go to some large oil company, and keep the monopoly of oil in this country,
I want to serve notice that we shall hold them to strict accountability for what happens in the tar sands. Because oil is found in the flowing wells of Leduc and Redwater, we do not want the development of these tar sands to be retarded. This development must go on because these sands constitute, as is known everywhere, the greatest reserve of oil and its by-products that is known not only in Canada but in the whole world, including Arabia or the Near East or Asia. There are billions of barrels of oil to be produced there.
It is said that this development will cost money, that it is too far away. You, Mr. Speaker, know the terrible condition which the bolshevists and communists are trying to create in the world, not only outside of Canada but inside. They are organizing right here in this service in this country at this moment. There is a campaign on everywhere to try to scare-as if we could be scared-the free nations of the west from the conclusion of the north Atlantic security pact. Do you realize, Mr. Speaker, that if this unfortunate war should ever come-and I hope it never will-the battleground will be right here in Canada? If Germany, under the kaiser or later under Hitler, had had within its boundaries such immense resources of oil, gas and by-products-this material without which you cannot be productive in peace or successful in war-do you think for one moment she would not have developed them? No, Mr. Speaker, the Germans would have been producing millions of barrels right now; and we would have had a hard time to keep their planes down if they had had that oil within their boundaries.
The reason that I took the floor tonight is this. I am not a man living in the past. While I may have referred to what happened in the past, it was just in order to give the younger people of this country an inkling of what will happen to them if they again make the mistake of changing government. I am speaking on behalf of the young men and young women of this country. There are many in my own home right now. I have raised a family. They know I would not do anything to their detriment. They will not depend on the government, they will not depend on an allowance, but they will try to create something, to produce something out of the soil of this country, out of its resources, out of this Canada to which God has been so bountiful and so generous. Do you think that our scientists will be stumped by the development 29087-64
The Address-Mr. Dechene of these tar sands? No. It is up to us to encourage them and to see that as soon as possible, in view of what may happen in the world, a way is discovered to develop those resources at a fair price, and that it is pressed forward as promptly as possible to ensure that, should anything happen in this troublous world, we and our allies will never be short of that motive power without which you cannot fly in the air nor run on the ground.
Before I take my seat, Mr. Speaker, I should like to express a thought to you. For some reason or other, nature did not smile on Athabaska last year. I do not know whether it was because there were too many sinners out there or too many Social Crediters. We had a poor crop, and for the first time in our history we had to take advantage of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). Our farmers are not discouraged-no, sir! They belong to a race of pioneers, of strong men. I can envision most of them now. I know them so well, of all political faiths. I can see them at this time. Tomorrow is the first of March. I can see them standing outside watching the sky for the first sign of the first crow or the first bird of spring. They are listening carefully to nature working on their land, the rich, strong, fertile soil of Alberta. In a few days it will break through the shroud of ice and snow which have held it prisoner for some months now. It will expose its bosom, as it were, to the glorious warmth of the sun of Alberta. Our farmers will work, sir. Their machinery and implements are all ready. I know most of them. The wheat is cleaned and the other grains are ready, cleaned and treated, and they will go on the land and plant a larger acreage than ever before.
May I, sir, in the august assembly of all the representatives of the people of Canada, of all parties assembled here to serve those people, say a prayer, that this year nature be kind to them and Providence bless their labour so that they shall have a bumper crop, a greater crop than ever before.
Before I take my seat I should like to say a word about the trans-Canada highway. I told you, sir, that I come from the Edmonton district, the city which now stands on the threshold of the greatest development which has ever taken place in this country, a city which is built over a coal field. I remember that we had to stop mining at the city limits some years ago. It is now in the middle of a sea of oil, and all the land to the far north is beckoning to settlers, beckoning to the young men and the young women of Canada to follow the tracks of those of us who now must lay off the burden that we have carried for some time. There is lots of room yet, lots of opportunity in that part of Canada; but
1002	HOUSE OF
The Address-Mr. Pearkes we must have a good highway through Edmonton, sir. I know that my friends from Calgary will possibly not agree with me, but Edmonton is the logical place for the trans-Canada highway, because it would run through the best portion of Alberta. It would touch every park in Saskatchewan and Alberta, connecting with Jasper park and with the highway on the top of the world from Jasper to Banff.
I say, sir, that the logical location for the trans-Canada highway is through the city of Edmonton and the Yellowhead pass. I hope that when the powers that be come finally to decide on the location they will decide to put the highway through Edmonton and that north country. I .remember when the Canadian Pacific railway was under construction. The company made a survey in the area. I saw the survey myself when I was a boy.
I saw the posts along the line drawn northwest of Edmonton, and then traveling toward the Peace river and the Pine river pass and west to the Yellowhead pass. Later they switched around and went to Calgary and the Kicking Horse pass. We were left alone without transportation for many years.
I do not want that mistake to be repeated at this time, and I plead with the government to see that this trans-Canada highway goes through Edmonton and the central and northern part of Alberta.


Mr. G. R. Pearkes (Nanaimo):: Mr. Speaker, one of the objects of the debate on the speech from the throne is, I understand, to give private members an opportunity to place before this house some matters which they may consider of importance. I wish to take full advantage of that opportunity and to discuss measures which are at present in existence, and measures which might be introduced in order to safeguard and make safer the lives of those who find their occupation on the seas around Canada. I do not intend to engage in this subject from a controversial point of view. I know that it is not entirely a new subject because it has been hinted at in this session and in previous sessions by hon. members on both sides of the house, but I hope that by assembling the facts as I see them I shall be able to suggest some improvements in legislation as it exists today, and in the manner in which that legislation is being administered. I shall draw my examples from my own constituency, because I am familiar with the conditions and details in that part of Canada. I do not claim that the conditions existing there are any different from those which exist in any other constituency either on the Atlantic or on the Pacific coast.


I cannot speak with authority regarding the maritime provinces, which border the Atlantic ocean, but I have been informed-and I have discussed this with other hon. members -that the conditions there are, in the main, similar to those which exist on the Pacific coast. I am quite certain that the importance of this subject is enhanced by the fact that we are now taking into our family the tenth province-N e wf oundland.
In order to give you some idea, Mr. Speaker, of the importance of the sea to the people who live in our coastal provinces, I might say that the constituency which I represent is approximately seventy-five miles from the most easterly point to the most westerly point, and about the same distance from the most southerly to the most northerly point; but in that whole area there is hardly a resident who is more than twenty miles from salt water.
In the north there is the port of Nanaimo through which the passengers and the trade of at least two-thirds of Vancouver island pass. During last summer no fewer than 200,000 passengers entered that port, coming from the mainland in some of the biggest steamers of the C.P.R. fleet, which made seven trips a day from Nanaimo to Vancouver and back again. Over 75,000 tons of freight were moved through that port. At the government assembly wharf there one may see freighters taking to the European markets the lumber which is cut from our forests. One would see other deep-sea ships loaded with coal going to China and other parts of the orient.
A few miles south of there you come to the important fishing and lumber towns of Ladysmith and Chemainus. Then, going down beyond that, you come to the Cowichan Bay area where you may see, at any time during the summer months, hundreds of yachts which have brought tourists and sportsmen to fish in those waters.
Farther down you come to the great Canada Cement factory. Some of the ingredients to make the cement are brought by barge from other islands, and the product is taken away by ships to all parts of the west coast of British Columbia and western United States. Still farther south one comes to Sidney, where there are ferry services running from Vancouver island to the mainland of British Columbia and to the state of Washington. Any time during the summer months one can see many hundreds of cars being loaded daily onto those ferries.
At the southern end of the constituency there is the port of Victoria, through which is served all the southern part of Vancouver island. A little farther around you come to

the great naval base of Esquimalt. Then as you proceed farther west along the northern shore of the strait of San Juan you come first of all to the quarantine station where the ships coming from the orient are detained so that the immigrants may be inspected. Still farther west you come to other fishing villages, such as Sooke and Port Renfrew. Then even beyond that there are small hamlets which the steamers cannot approach, and at which points all supplies have to be landed in Indian canoes.
Between the island of Vancouver and the mainland there is the whole archipelago of the Gulf islands. The whole domestic, industrial and social life of the residents of those islands depends entirely upon water-borne transport. It is correct to say that many and varied are the occasions by which men must go down to the sea in ships. As I said before, the conditions there are similar to the conditions elsewhere. But I wish particularly to illustrate the number and variety of occupations which require men to spend the greater part of their working hours at sea.
The volume of traffic involved is very considerable. Let us consider the fishing industry alone. In British Columbia there are some 15,000 to 20,000 men employed in the crews of our fishing vessels. Last year, I believe, the equipment used by these fishing vessels ran to something over $20 million. So far as the catch is concerned, last year our salmon pack up to October of 1948 was estimated at 1,280,000 cases. Of halibut the catch was valued at $3 million. The herring taken amounted to 38 million pounds, which was converted into meal and oil. Then, after having lapsed for a number of years, the whaling industry was revived on the Pacific coast in the past season, and a successful catch reported. Tuna fish are caught sometimes as far as 500 miles out into the Pacific, and also may be caught off the Queen Charlotte islands. Thousands of tons of that valuable fish were taken.
I wish to stress that these men who go out to catch the fish and who serve these fishing vessels, which are small craft, do so at considerable risk to their lives. The crews are small, the waters are extensive, and the opportunities for rescue are extremely limited. I feel that the people in other parts of Canada who benefit from the labours of these men should appreciate the risks they run each day. Those risks are increased if, when the catching season is over, or when the vessels must put into port even for a short time, there is not safe berthing. If during rough weather the vessels tied up in harbours, where there is not adequate protection, become dam-29087-645
The Address-Mr. Pearkes aged, it is quite obvious that when they must put to sea again there is greater danger of loss of life and equipment. Also during those periods when they have their vessels berthed in harbours the fishermen have to stay up night after night watching their ships, to see that they are not damaged, owing to the fact that insufficient protection is provided in the harbours. Therefore one of the main factors in ensuring safety of life at sea is the provision of adequate and safe berthing places in the harbours of any coast.
But of course fishing is only one of the many occupations Canadians follow on the sea. Along the Pacific coast the passenger service of coastwise vessels only-and I am not talking about the trans-Pacific vessels- carried last year something over two million persons.
Then the most important industry of British Columbia, namely that of logging and lumbering, is to a large extent dependent upon sea transport. The logs are cut high up on the mountainside, and are brought down to the sea either by rail or by truck. There they are worked into booms and tugs take them to the mills. Again the distances are frequently great. Logs cut on the Queen Charlotte islands will perhaps come down to a mill at Vancouver. Logs cut on the west coast of Vancouver island are taken great distances to mills either in Washington or in British Columbia. It will be seen that many men engaged in the logging industry spend a good deal of their time on the sea, either forming booms or operating the tugboats which take these great booms of logs to the mills. It is no exaggeration to say that thousands of men are employed on the sea and that the equipment used is valued at many millions of dollars.
I shall not weary the house by reciting the long list of marine accidents that have occurred in recent years. The number of accidents is increasing all the time. I should like to mention just a few which have occurred on the Pacific coast in the last two years. Five lives were lost from the ship Gulf Stream. The Northhohn went down with a loss of fifteen lives. The Clarksdale Victory suffered disaster with a loss of fifty-one lives. A few weeks ago the captain of the Passing Cloud was drowned although the rest of his crew were saved. Just before Christmas three men on the St. Clair lost their lives.
I should like to direct attention to the facilities that exist for sending help to ships in distress and for sending distress signals. We have a good ship-to-shore telephone system on the Pacific coast, but it could be improved by the maintaining of a more con-
1004	HOUSE OF
The Address-Mr. Pearkes tinuous watch and by putting the land lines in better condition. In the main, the land lines are government-operated, but owing to the nature of the terrain and the limited personnel employed they are not always kept in first-class condition. I know that recommendations have been made for their improvement, but the lives of men at sea are jeopardized because an efficient and rapid system of communication is not available in all cases.
There are other means by which men at sea are helped and warnings sent. I refer to the various direction-finding stations which permit ships to get a fix on their location. The network of such stations is not yet complete.
I was told by the minister responsible that it was the intention to erect two additional automatic radio beacons. These beacons automatically send out, at short intervals, signals which enable a vessel to obtain its location.
It has been recognized for some time that gaps exist in this system but for some reason or other the beacons which were to have been in place last year are not yet operating. While I understand that they are now on their way to the Pacific coast I should like to urge that

no steps be left untaken in order to provide both our Pacific and our Atlantic coasts with a complete network of radio beacons so that there will be no gaps in the system. I want to stress again the necessity of providing a continuous watch so that, when a ship is in distress, word may be sent immediately to some central place.
One of the tragedies of army life is broken service.
I see, Mr. Speaker, that you are anxious to declare that it is time for the house to rise and I have reached the point where perhaps I could break off my remarks.
On motion of Mr. Pearkes the debate was adjourned.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Alphonse Fournier: Tomorrow we will continue this debate.
At 10.30 p.m. the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to the order of the house passed on February 22, 1949.

Tuesday, March 1, 1949